Sniper Country Duty Roster

April 2004

Hmmmmm,

John in Kyrgistan got me a wonderin'. Have any of you fondled the new Bushmaster (I think they call it) BAR? Basically an AR-10 BUT the lower accepts FAL Mags. If it works well, I'd LOVE to have George build up a SWS (sorta like the SH rifle) using that lower. Then we could afford to buy mags by the dozen! George, whaddaya tink? Thoughts?

Later

Rich

Rich S,
MD, - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 00:45:46 (ZULU)

Mr. Sain,

What app are the Marines using Over Whites in place of Ghillies? Winter seems too obvious an answer. Are they painting them to match the digital urban?

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 02:05:47 (ZULU)

Desert cammie gents. Paint 'em tan and you look like sand.

Looks like there's lots of work in the expected AO. Good, wouldn't want to be bored for 7 monthes. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 02:30:50 (ZULU)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040401/ap_on_re_mi_ea/civilian_deaths&cid=540&ncid=1480

Bastard fucktards.......

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 03:19:15 (ZULU)

Danish police has arrested at least 4 people planning an act of terror in Denmark. One of the terrs came from Marokko and the rest have swedish passports. I assume they are muslim immigrants.

Gooch:

The incident in Falluja makes me sick. It also explains why russian soldiers in Afghanistan wiped out villages and towns were they found remains of molested russian bodies.

Tor

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 08:06:24 (ZULU)

Speaking of Blackwater. What has happened to our Man in Haiti since all the trouble began down there. Well.. the latest trouble anyway.

Is he back in t he states? Anybody know?

Brogers
Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 13:46:57 (ZULU)

Mr Rogers, Lools like Finger dropped off the face of the earth.

Joe M., You've got mail. It regards DCU's.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, US of A by God - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 15:56:50 (ZULU)

Nope, don't kill whole villages. Find the people who did this, and - in a deliberate and professional manner - brutally kill them all.

Arabs are notorious for being frontrunners. They root for whoever they they think is doing well. Putting these assholes' heads on pikes will be a worthwhile object lesson.

(Edited to add): This guy says almost exactly the same thing, but says it better than I do: "The difficulty in solving the problem in Fallujah is profound. Those who commit violent acts must be dealt with in the most serious manner. I fear that the Western media is already showing squeamishness about the use of force by Marines, but they would do well to remember that Iraqis generally subscribe to a philosophy that respects strength, and not weakness. Failing to respond to the violence therefore would invite still more violence, not less."

Click my name.

CDC'
Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 16:19:19 (ZULU)

TorF, you've got e-mail from my other address, coming through the roster.

Now where is Marco?

Piggie Killer Pete, you'll have something coming from the roster from me too here shortly, I hope.

Bravo
Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 16:44:02 (ZULU)

Gooch, to our fallen brothers. I hope to buy you beers in Valhalla. Then we go deflower a few of the T's virgins. To our brothers in Iraq, please send one hundred T's each to meet the virgins. The T's only do little boys anyway. Poor girls need love too.

Is it just me or do others think the freakin place would make a nice large gas station?

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 17:18:43 (ZULU)

I think it would make a nice glass mirror.

Thought that about Vietnam too.

Able One

Mike Wiseman
Harrison, Oh, - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 18:20:51 (ZULU)

Finger and everyone working with him got back fine...

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 20:01:51 (ZULU)

Gooch; thanks, I was worried about that boy!

Brogers
Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 20:51:44 (ZULU)

I'm certain this has been posted before but I can't seem to locate it. I bought a Rem 700 in .308 with a varmit contour barrel some time ago that was in a fiberglass Silhouette stock. I shoot Highpower Sevice Rifle comps in my area and am looking to put together a bolt gun for prone competitions. Here's the kicker... I don't want to spend a whole lot of $$. As it sits right now, I only have $400 in the rifle and $175 for the Leupold M8 12x that sits on it. I have an old Redfield International rear sight and a Mid Tompkins Front sight with several inserts ($140 and $35 respectively). It's an older Rem 700, so the left side of the receiver is already tapped for peep sights... I was thinking a Medesha barrel band for the front sight. The only thing I'm really lacking is a good prone stock. I know McMillan makes a great product, but the entire point here is to keep costs down. Sort of difficult to do when I'd have as much (or more) in the stock than the rifle. I was seriously looking at the HS Precision stocks, but I don't know which one!! It looks like they produce the 'spittin-image' of the Anschutz 1911 prone stock, but not for a Rem 700 Short Action (only Winchester M70??). I also ran across the McGee competition rifle stock which are less money, but then I'd have to glass bed and I don't have a whole lot (re: ANY!) of experience with laminated stocks. Any information or direction would be greatly appreciated. Leo

Leo
Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 22:20:41 (ZULU)

HELLO ALL. Been gone for far to long. How you all doin? My useless box of knowledge went south due to a worm or vd or something. Had to do some major surgery to it to bring it back.

Since we last spoke I have had a chance to shoot my Mauser and well lets just say it was eventful. First session I had it out I put 5 rounds through it and the scope fell off, found out the tapped holes where stripped out! So I fixed it and ran out one fine day after work with a box or two of standard military rounds, once it was dialed in I hit 1" at 100. I'm headed out to a long range over easter to see what it'll do at 400.

I am helping out with safety and line foreman duties at a shoot on Apl.10. The group we are taking out call themselves "Geeks With Guns". It is mostly a bunch of MBA suits that are somewhat new to firearms. I will be demonstrating and overseeing the venerable Barrett82A1. I have a real feeling that I will be performing first aid on someone because they got their melon split by the scope.

I'll catch up with ya soon!

Icky The Great
PGH, PA, USA - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 22:27:32 (ZULU)

I have read snipercountry for a long time now and I do long range shooting. I recently have considered joining the National Guard and trying to get into the sniper program. Does anyone have any experience with the school or availability or difficulty to even get a shot at it? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Darin
Lufkin, Tx, USA - Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 22:56:32 (ZULU)

Darin,

First thing you will have to do is find you a combat arms unit,(Infantry, Armored Cav, Special Forces) and upon completion of Basic & AIT, you will start recieving home station MOS Specific training provided that you are able to be slotted as a sniper in that unit. After being at the unit for awhile, you can request slots to the NGB Scout/Sniper School at Little Rock. Gooch can tell you more than I can on this subject matter. Last I heard, entrance to the School had the same requirements as the U.S. Army School. Those are:

Must be 11B, 11M, 19D or CMF 18. PFC-SFC (Grade waiverable). Active duty, or Reserve, or National Guard, must have a good performance record with no history of alcohol, or drug abuse, must be a volunteer and be recommended by his commander. Must be in excellent physical condition (70 percent or better in each event of the APFT). Must have a corrected vision of 20/20 must not have a record of disciplinary action. Must be knowledgble of skill level 2 tasks. Must have a GT score of 100. Must have qualified expert with the M16A2/M4 Carbine rifle within six months of course attendance. Normal color vision must be annotated on SF 88, tested within six months of course attendance. Must have a minimum of one (1) year retainability. Must pass psychological evaluation (MMPI/CPI) conducted under the direction of a qualified psychologist.

Hope this helps you out, and good luck to you!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 00:28:05 (ZULU)

Kent Gooch,

Jesus... I'm really sorry.

Undude,

Imagine a gigantic Christian NASCAR Circuit with free porn and giant shopping malls where capitalistic excess runs rampant. My patience is up. I don't discourage the use of nukes from the Eastern shore of the Med to the tallest peaks on the planet. We'll never be rid of this problem. For no reason, someone will always be willing.

AND! I was in the T zone in the 90s. Young boys is all they have. They bring in the ones whose parents can't afford to feed them and others that are orphaned. They teach them to recite the Koran word for word in Arabic. Trouble is, they don't teach them Arabic, so the young boys don't know what they're reciting. They're taught the book says kill infidels and blow old men with long beards, but they don't really know. I saw this all. Homeless boys endear themselves to whomever will care for them, and there are plenty of takers.

With that kind of enemy creation machine, what can we do? I say PHUCM! We'll be watching our boys be dragged behind trucks or out of bombed buildings for 50 years. It's just a matter of whether they're Soldiers over there or civilians over here.

Venting,

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 00:43:18 (ZULU)

I have a friend who just returned from that festering *@#hole place and he said it was like being in a freakin oven and anywhere you looked there where people hating you for being there. Some thanks; and he said that upon his return he had a run in with some pond jumpers(immigrants) of the same decent. They gave him a bunch of flak cause he was wearing his uniform. I said that it sounds like the veitnam war crap all over again. Everyone hates us but is willing to come to this country and live off our freedom, but never really contribute back. I say extra crispy camel is good food!

The media should stay out of the way of duty and focus on more profound problems than justly abusing a known terrorist who will kill anyone he disagrees with. We pander to the media because they are they litle whiny shits who have nothing better to do than NARC on their own kind. I loath those maggots!!

Icky The Great
PGH, PA, USA - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 02:29:17 (ZULU)

Imagine what a couple of a-teams could do in Fallujah. Not to hunt bad guys or train counter-insurgents or liason with local officials, but to conduct full insurgency upon the citizens of the Sunni Triangle in a most unconventional manner. Those people would shit twice and go blind trying find someone to protect them.

I know some spooky green hats who could have refugees streaming from that place with minimal damage to the infrastructure of the town. Just pick off the bad guys as they pass through the check points. Hell, what if the insurgents had to start thinking about there own force protection.

I know. We're the good guys. But isn't that what the unconventional units are for?

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 03:17:05 (ZULU)

Pete L- Pete hit me off line with your perfered shipping address and a good phone number for when we get to Langen. I'll give you a call next week and we'll set up dinner with ladies on the 15th. The stuff you wanted is backordered but I am going to order it and have it shipped to you. The company said no problem and it would be about 5-6 weeks till it arrives there after the order is placed. Also they are going to call me back and leave me info for the UK distributor and they said they should have a deal made with a German company in Darmstadt in a couple months. I'll e-mail you too..I only have the ESA e-mail address though so I'll hit you there and via the SC.

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 04:31:48 (ZULU)

Icky,

Half-moon cuts on the eyebrow from the M82.......not likely if it has the Swarovski with the telescoping eyepiece, but the outside of the nose can bleed from the release lever on the Butler Creek lens cover. I always remove mine before shooting. That little red lever can get your attention.

Biggest thing is to caution your guys not to touch the ejected brass for a few minutes. It don't stay in the chamber long enough to transfer its heat.

Steve at Badlands got to see a student learn that lesson, with the empty stuck to his fingers.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 05:32:48 (ZULU)

Bomb found on Spanish rail track Police are pursuing suspected Islamic militants for those attacks. Well doesn’t it just prove that changing the government did nothing. 20/20 hind sight oh No we predicted it didn’t we…. I hope they feel foolish and stupid because that’s how they look.

Dry
uk - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 13:33:19 (ZULU)

Lee; right as we speak the best value out of the box that shoots the best is the Savage short action. You can get it in several configurrations. Just go to their page at savagearms.com and lookem over. You can get one in that McMill stock or A Plaster stock that works very well on prone. IF you want to carry it you gotta know somebody with a good back but there is nothing wrong witht heir factory stock. Top it with a good scope and I can say that the Weaver 4.5X14 mil dot scope is about as good as any and much better than all the cheap scopes. The whole thing will set you back less than a $1000 if you watch where you buy it. Put some good scope mounts on it and it will shoot with the best of em. My rifle is a Remington 700 VSSF with the original stock / or I can put on the Plaster if it's just a target match. Barrel length is another consideration. Savage has about all lengths. My favorite is the 22 but the Law Enforcement model only comes in 20 or 26 if I remember right and you can always shorten it if you need too, shorten it only if you need help carrying or moving with it. IF you want to do long range work in .308 keep the barrel at 26 but don't expect that to do much better than the shorter ones.

My Grandson oldest one just joined the Guard. What you eventually get is what you work for and show good at and who you can get to recommend you. Bobby has it pin pointed zactly.

Brogers
Friday, April 2, 2004, at 14:03:43 (ZULU)

Joe S,

Pete is in the UK at the moment and doesn't have access to a PC. Told me to tell you he meant to contact you before he left and to say he would get in touch as soon as he gets back. Check you e-mail something there for ya.

Dry,

Hi pal, did you catch my last re transmitter and prices for itty-bitty teles? Did you hear the fundamentalist bloke on Radio 2 on the Jeremy Vine show today? If not hear it online. I'm soooo angry!!!

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 15:03:01 (ZULU)

Then again, if you want a rifle that will shoot out to 1k, but you want a 20" barrel, go with Howa. I've got one that was bobbed down from 26", and it shoots out to a thousand just fine. And, like I've said before, I got the last one for $420 out the door, can't beat that. Now, the stock that comes on it sucks, you gotta bed it and float the bbl, but that's small beer for what you get. I took both of them up to Badlands last weekend. Both shoot sub moa, but the shortie is somewhat more accurate, probably due to the stiffer short bbl. Both will do one-hole groups out to a hundred, then the large, recoil-reducing device behind the buttpad starts to degrade accuracy.

Sarge was shooting his shortie (no, the rifle!) and it has no problems out to the one grand mark, either.

Took one of my patrol buddies up there. We ran into the Travelocity travelling gnome on the way, he bummed a ride. You can see him checking out the range on the Badlands website, he's pretty cool for a short guy....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 15:14:38 (ZULU)

"The insurgency in Iraq now is attempting to ...prevent any reconciliation with the Sunnis.

One of the first important attacks which was consistent with classic terrorist doctrine was the mass bombing of the Shiites. The goal of that attack was to inspire hatred among the Shiites and to provoke Shiite retaliation against the Sunnis. If the attack had successfully provoked that kind of reprisals, it would have had a good chance of convincing the Sunnis that they faced disaster if they cooperated in the process of establishing a new Iraqi government, which would have derailed our efforts to create it.

If the new government ends up totally dominated by the Shiite majority, and if they in turn use it to repress the Sunnis, then it would be seen elsewhere in the region as "the new boss, same as the old boss". Political backlash by Shiites against the Sunnis in response to that bombing would therefore have been a major victory for al Qaeda. Violent attacks against Sunnis by Shiites would have been frosting on the cake.

Fortunately, saner heads among the Shiites recognized the attack for what it was, and strongly discouraged such a response.

Now, in Falluja, we have seen another operation consistent with the doctrine of terrorism, only this time the US was the target. Four American civilians driving through that city were killed, and their bodies were desecrated by an exultant crowd...

The Baathist insurgency thought that ongoing attacks would cause American demoralization and retreat. That didn't work...they hope... Americans...will do something extremely stupid: to punish the Sunnis collectively for the actions of the terrorist group.

...that's the...theory behind terrorism...It is not the terrorist act itself which helps advance the political goals of the terrorist group; it is rather THE REPRISAL (my caps). Terrorism is...a way of using an enemy's strength against himself...Paul Bremer understands that and seems to be responding to it appropriately. But he's being criticized by hotheads who don't seem to understand that swift, strong, broad reaction against Sunnis collectively would be a blunder of the first order."

Click my name to read the whole thing. The links contain an intelligent, ongoing discussion.

The smart thing is to find the people who did this and make grisly examples of them. Leave non-combatants alone. According to the reports, that's what we're going to do.

CDC'
Friday, April 2, 2004, at 17:09:31 (ZULU)

I wonder if GAG, sorry JAG would allow such actions to be taken today ??

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 19:01:57 (ZULU)

Two topics:

A good day here (especially after finding out I was getting a good chunk of change back on my taxes!).

Picked up 300 one-ounce packs from Art, and he threw in about another 50 for FREE! Also a "Jerky by Art" polo shirt for Major Joe.

Then took CB to Hobby Lobby (I slept in the pick-up....) for some sewing supplies, and she cleaned 'em out of those neat little squeeze bottles that work so well for weapons lube.

Prev. Bal.: $388.95

Jerky: $360.00

Squeeze bottles: $15.75

Current Bal.: $13.20

Grabbed some baby back ribs at our favorite BBQ joint and headed home. Wish I could get a C130 full to Joe!

Then got a call from Rob Opp.....Damn if he wasn't at Art's, buying jerky! Had a great chat with him. I'm tickled he got to meet Art, who is a true patriot. He even got the tour of Art's new dehydrator room (that's right, ROOM!).......kinda like a kiln for beef.

Next topic/rant:

Cauterize Fallujah.

They already hate us. Let them now fear us. Unless and until the terrorists, and those that shelter and support them, know that they will reap the whirlwind for such atrocities, they will continue.

Cautery is unpleasant. It stinks and it hurts, but it's better than gangrene.

Rant off.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 23:35:39 (ZULU)

Maj. I lost you address over there. I have two boxes waiting to send, please resend your address asap.

Thanks

Keith

Keith
Northcentral, WV, - Friday, April 2, 2004, at 23:58:37 (ZULU)

I don't know, but the old men of the Bible couldn't sort that Iraqi shit out. I don't know why we think we can. I'm damn tired of their internal politics and general bull shit. "When you do battle with a land far away. Kill every living thing!" source.(The Old Bible, book of Duter. ) They knew you couldn't occupy and rehabilitate to enemy and here it's thousands of years later and we still don't catch on. I'm not even interested in out smarting the SOB's. Killing them will do as far as I'm concerned. I'm not interested in saving a few good ones.... let their God sort em out. I wish this stupid country would learn how to fight a damn war.

Brogers
Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 02:38:58 (ZULU)

Jon B- Thanks and I have an e-mail inbound for you.

Lets see... I'm leaving for Germany on Sunday AM....Of course I wake up this morning with what feels like a cold that must have been sent by the T'Ban. After my trip to Rite Aid I raised the stock prices of all the over the counter cold medicine companies.

I ran a M16 qual for my department today with my buddy. All went as smooth as silk....a real good bunch of shooters today. They're basic level M16 shooters so we're trying to get them to a little higher speed. We touched on several trigger control drills and did a lot of fire/manuver and move/shoot and man down rescue stuff. The crew really enjoyed it and got exposed to some new tacical tools. Their "toolbox" is getting more useful. It's always gratifying to see them learn something that might keep them or others alive while ridding the world of a problem. So far several officers that I helped train have used their rifles in bonefide shootouts and walked away from it..the bad guys didn't. Makes me feel good to hear my "kids" are winning.

Take care and remember....some things in the mirror appear larger than they really are.

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 03:14:59 (ZULU)

Joe S: "So far several officers that I helped train have used their rifles in bonefide shootouts and walked away from it..the bad guys didn't."

You're doing good work Joe.

CDC'
Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 04:01:38 (ZULU)

Which Aimpoint is the one to purchase?

M2 or ML2?

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy., Indiana, U.S.A. - Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 05:31:34 (ZULU)

I Found a computer Jon.. Joe have good trip, see you soon.

Britain is on the verge of civil unrest, Britons are sick of imigrants and corupt governments, the level of anger within the population towards foriegners is increasing, i think if a terrorist (islamistic) act happened here there would be full scale uprising in certain areas with attacks on Muslims, mosques bieng fire bombed, foriegners bieng attacked etc. British National Party is becoming a credible political party with ex conservatives, socialists and liberals alike finding a new allience to the values and aims of this party. No wonder the present Gov't want to remove arms from civialinan ownership.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
Rule Britania - Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 10:06:04 (ZULU)

Bearman; IF you are asking "Aimpoint" as a brand they are all good. IF you mean that as a general term for red dot sights there are many good ones but you can't go wrong with the Aimpoint brand. The main thing to watch for is good adjustments and pay attention to forward signature. Be sure to watch for parallax within the system you are going for. Some of these DO have as much as 4" inspite of the fact they say it can't exist. Particularly the little ones remenicent of "heads up devices". The smaller the aiming dot usually the better you can shoot with it. You can turn the intensity down and actually use both eyes if there is a need for pinpoint accuracy and the 2 images will superimpose on each other giving you the opportunity to put the target right in the center of the red dot that is actually larger than the target you are shooting at./You may know all this but many people read.

Joe; 10 fo on that. Never take a pistol to a gun duel if there's a rifle around. (other people read, Joe knows that. )\

*I should explain forward signature as I used it above. Some red dot sights show the enemy ahead a red or blue signature that's really easy to see with a scope or anything else particularly when the sun is in the direction of the shooter and going down. In fact most of them do. Pick one that's as least visable as possible for entry work or tactical operations. Same goes for coyote hunting.

Brogers
Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 14:35:41 (ZULU)

Kuwaitis and their fireworks! Apparently, there is something else to celebrate over their weekend (TH-FR). One rich guy musta scored a satchel charge or daisy-chained an assload of quarter-sticks. Heheh. Been jumping around here from that first large boom thru today. Once I realized there's no small arms--I took some nyquil and went into a coma!

Man, am I still sick as a dog...

Ya know--The Fallujah problem is a tough one. I'm working through third-order effects of just relocating everyone into widely scattered regions of the Kurdish areas, and maybe a few of the more vocal asses into Shi'a areas. Then, just doze the place to desert. A cordoned search won't catch all the hiding places, and our boys will be sniped at block by block. Erase the place, and let local issues get settled locally.

Political non-starter; but it sure is fun to imagine!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 15:49:51 (ZULU)

Joe M: You're there and you do this for a living, so I'd like your thoughts on this idea. After Somalia, bin Laden taught that America was a paper tiger because our public opinion wouldn't support conflicts in which we incurred significant casualties. He said that the key to defeating us was to kill a couple of our people then flim the dragging of their corpses through the streets. Pre Gulf War II, Sadaam preached the same thing. He used "Blackhawk Down" as a cornerstone of his operational doctrine.

So that's the key idea: Drag a couple of our people through the street and we cave.

But what happens when we don't cave? My guess is that, when a major premiss of their doctrine is proved false, a major component of their strategy is undermined.

As far as your higher-order effects go; beats my pair of jacks. Smart people do this for a living. I'm just an interested observer who depends on really flimsy sources of intel. But there's one prediction that's easy: Right now, some of our very competent people are developing a list of targets. It isn't an academic exercise.

CDC'
Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 17:12:47 (ZULU)

HOGs just spent a great deal of time getting rid of a Trojan Virus, which messed with my address book. If you get any emails from me with attachments or photos watch out. I will post/call I am sending anything with an attachment.

Now the bad freaking part. It killed half my address book so I have lost alot of email addresses. I hope you guys, including Major Joe send me current email address so I can resave.

Send the addresses to Tacticalslings At Aol you know

Thanks

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 18:47:49 (ZULU)

Gentlemen; I wonder if anyone else has built a rifle like mine. It is an M1 Garand, rebuilt as a full match rifle with a Douglas heavy barrel, and all the goodies that go to make a match rifle.

To top it all off, I had a Burris 10X handgun scope mounted scout style on it. It will shoot an honest 5 shot, 3/4 inch group at 100 yards, using Federal Gold Medal match ammo.

Anyone know of another Garand like it? I think it is the only one in existance. There are other mounts that bolt in place of the rear sight, making it essentially a single shot. But I know of none that have the mounts screwed directly to the barrel, and the scope mounted thereon. What say you?

Semper Fi; Leatherneck

New kid on the block!

Leatherneck
Avon, Ma., U.S.A. - Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 23:36:57 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I'm not sure whether surgically and methodically removing the bad elements from Fallujah will be the right call either. The longer the process takes, the more the gang green spreads. Sometimes you just gotta amputate for best results. It's ugly and leaves hard feelings and scares, but it stops it short of killing you.

CDC,

At what point does the politically correct method of CT become too cumbersome to manage. I thought at one point we could win over hearts and minds in Iraq since they're mostly secular and not necessarily religiously motivated. I now think that no matter how glad most of them are to be rid of the Hussein regime, they'd still rather see the insurgents kill Americans than confront them or see us kill them.

This reminds me of the gang problems in our major cities. Local residents hate the gangs, but won't help the cops put them away and can't stand up to them. We take away the residents guns and leave them with no way to defend thier own neighborhoods from the gangs that get guns illegally.

Fallujah is in disrepair. Knock it down and rehab. Better property value. Better economy. Plenty of new jobs for Iraqis from other areas who will come into the void... Unless we nuke it.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 00:52:27 (ZULU)

You want to kill more of the enemy than you make. Let's say someone who isn't real smart kills the 200,000 residents of Fallujah. That leaves something like 1.2 billion Moslems. Those people will have a pretty clear idea whose side they've been forced to take.

Or you could develop intel then make examples of, oh, five hundred. No Sunni v Shiite civil war. Stable Iraq. We win.

Russia tried "Kill 'em all" in A'stan. They lost. In Malaya Great Britan killed only who they needed to. They won.

Pointless discussion. Rumsfeld is smart; too smart to play into al Qa'eda's hands by killing a lot of non-combatants.

CDC'
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 01:15:05 (ZULU)

"Which Aimpoint is the one to purchase? M2 or ML2?"

BearMan, real simple. If you plan on using NV go with the M2. Mount it in front of a PVS14 and you have a nice setup. This requires a flattop M16/M4 or "something" with a single long rail.

Otherwise stick with the ML2. It's not NV compatable and costs a bit less.

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 01:28:49 (ZULU)

CDC- Thanks for the compliment. It really hits home when you hear of your "kids" getting in gunfights. The weight of being a trainer gets a lot heavier after the first one and reality hits home....What I say and do will determine if these some of these guys live or die. A heavy burdon I'm glad to accept.

Jon B- Well it looks like the second package isn't going to make in time bro. So get me that address and I'll have it in ptiority mail ASAP when I get back.

Off to the Fatherland in the AM. Long flight, bad head cold, two young kids...Ahhhhh the good life =)

Everybody stay safe,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 02:04:55 (ZULU)

CDC; your exactly right. It's too late to do it MY way. Had we leveled Bagdad the first day. It would have sent the message and saved years of pissing around. But it's hind sight now. I hope there is a way to save this mess without getting into another Vietnam mood of hand wringing and political jousting to get control by using a few dead bodies as proof that we were wrong to want to rid the world of tyrants and terrorists. IF we had ran scared 60 years ago when we lost a few good men we'd all be paying homage to Hitler and speaking German instead of Rap.

Brogers
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 03:06:57 (ZULU)

Bill: You and I agree on almost nothing and should positively never use this board to exchange views on any subject whatsoever.

CDC'
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 06:51:55 (ZULU)

Dan,

You are exactly right--and punishing the offenders is a tight rope to walk. There are many more in Fallujah in the "gray area"--and a little forced relocation; a bit of multi-cultural training if you will, struck my fancy. That is not happening though. It is too draconian yet for our planners. A decent plan B would be to lock it down (ring cordoned with a division) and drop leaflets. Encourage a bit of relocation for non-combatants--search everyone and everything leaving, make no uncertain terms what weapons will bring you when found, and let 'er rip. Prepare to take casualties...I'd say eighty or so throughout. But, to accomplish a systematic cleansing--it will be worthwhile.

What I don't want to see is a surgical removal of the dozens or so in the video and have it left at that. That is what I think will happen though. I would prefer a no stone unturned search of every damn thing, from one side to the other. May as well corner them and fight them now on our terms than to have them pick the battle down the road. To leave the town with any resistance will be seen as a weakness.

And on the other point--Somalia affirmed a suspicion that we are a cut and run power when bad things happen. It was seen as the wrong message at the time---but nobody wants to hear policy from a bunch of warmongers (us in the military--Clinton really held us in high regard-NOT!). The Clinton Administration's new world view was just grand, and if smacking someone isn't working, go straight to hugs. I ranted on this before---and I still bristle over the waste of life, of the mission creep, of the smarmy "get mean but be nice about it" BS of not escalating with armor and other resources when the time came---grrrr. In short, Clinton's acts were a disaster. The withdrawel from Mog did more to invite 9-11 than anything else. The feel-good libs are always the last to recognize the true nature of the danger---and here we are again. Spain just walked down that path---and watch; it ain't over for them by a long shot. They gave in, and until the keys to the kingdom are handed over---life is about to get ugly for them. Sooner or later, they'll decide to draw a line---but how far will they go trying appeasement (and dying) before they realize what has happened? The enemy, as we all realize here--is bent on purifying their faith (such as it is) and to know what that is-- is to know that GWB is right- they must be destroyed. Any hesitation now is their chance to destroy you. And that is exactly what they want. We got into their op cycle and put them off balance. Any freakin' dialogue or "police action" is exactly what they need right now to recover and take the initiative. More than ever, we have to keep up the pressure. And pile it on. No fuckin mercy, and no quarter. Simultaneously, we have to throw down a mini-Marshall plan to put a kink in recruiting; and maybe a little Isreali recognition on so called religious leaders wouldn't hurt either. The hellfire sniper on a Madras here and there may end up being necessary. Either we accept that now, or we bury our own and buy into it later. These fucks ain't going away on their own---they need exterminating! Like I said, Spain is the example. What will they give up next to be left alone? Whatever it is intially, it won't be enough tomorrow....until they ain't got shit left to give. Watch. Learn. If sKerry wins, there go we.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 08:17:44 (ZULU)

Dan and all:

Hey--lemme clear something up: You all know what I do (loggie-related); and anything I mess around with on the side is just intellectual curiousity running amok. By looking at social issues and relocations--it is just MHO, I was by no means planning or participating in anything official. I should watch how I phrase stuff! Heheh. Of course, there's some Kurds who were forced off their lands repeatedly by the Ba'athists who would LOVE to have a few new neighbors. Double ha. But that ain't official policy or position!

Dan--when they realize we are sticking it to them for real, they will step up the level of violance against some really soft targets (horrifying is relative--we ain't seen nuthin yet). If Bush wins in the fall--that realization won't be far behind.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 12:49:08 (ZULU)

Test.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 15:53:44 (ZULU)

Leatherneck:

Scott Medesha makes a mount that clamps around the barrel on

the Garand and M14 pattern rifles. Weaver rail is one of the mount options. Springfield Armory or Rob Leatham while employed by SA "appropriated" the mount design and makes a package with their M1A. Currently called the M1A Scout Squad Rifle.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-scout.shtml or click on my name for the URL.

I ordered and took delivery of a couple of the Medesha mounts to incorporate into Garands for myself and a friend. Used the standard-weight brl and replaced the stock with synthetic by Bell and Carlson.

Unitized the handguards and bedded the action.

My gunsmith reduced the barrel diameter for the mount, and cut thru part of the rear handguard so that the mount pokes thru. He also re-crowned brl at my request while it was on the lathe. I did the rest of the work. I had to file the underside of the mounts a fair amount so they would clear the stock and op-rod correctly.

I'm using a Leupold Scout Scope on Leupold QRW mounts.

send me a private email and I can send you pictures and text on my project.

I call it a Garand Scout :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 16:50:00 (ZULU)

Dan; your exactly right about that too. I'm sorry if I offended your holiness, By agreeing with you. You may kiss my ass if you wish. It must be nice to be the smartest man on earth.

Brogers
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 16:50:53 (ZULU)

Hooah. You go girls! (no disrespect to either gentleman; I respect the both ya--no kiddin')

I am more amused by my accidental quoting of Brogers' "exactly right" line than anything else here--but youz two are funny nontheless.

Bill, Dan-you all are like lighting a Yukon Stove. Ya get away with open flames and liquid fuels for years, then one day---Boom! No eyebrows...

Have fun, and remember, it all is fun and games until someone loses an eye(brow). Heheh.

Another oddity: X-number one sends an email. Says Hi. After 16-odd years, what is up with dat? Strange....

The Peanut departs for the White House on Thursday. The whole herd is going (eight seats in the expedition filled with kiddos). I feel for the Mrs; she is heading by way of Boston to see the boy, then down through DELMARVA to see sis, then into the big event. Ambitious! News: They childrens miracle network is doing a story on the 'Nut; possible national news/ add campaign for a related charity. Ya'll may see her on a TV near you soon! Ha. That's my girl!

I'm getting a shot of antibios; screw this. Off to the docs. I can barely see again...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 18:00:29 (ZULU)

Gentlemen; I apologize and plead permanent insanity.. I didn't know we had to agree on everything before we could change ideas on this board. I'm overcome with grief for my insane thoughts of treating Dan like another human being. MY mistake.

Joe; Thanks for your endowment of respect but save it all for Dan for he commands it. His is the campus way and mine is just the "cowboy way". Listen only to him for he has all the knowledge locked up and has thrown the key into lake ego.

Brogers
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 19:42:39 (ZULU)

Good stuff guys,

I reviewed some of the previous posts and realized I sound like an anarchist. I should go back to the cheap Scotch. The good stuff gets over consumed and Scotch makes me mean. CDC an Brogers, good times...

Yes, I feel like we're waiting around for another world war start. Only this time, how do you rebuild what's already in the stone age. Is this about the third world bring us down to them because they can't catch up? Do we really have a vested interest in keeping the middle east in strife and poverty?

Shimon Peres said a couple of weeks ago that he wants to pull back all troops and settlements from the occupied territories before September. He thinks the expenditure on the security and military operations costs more than irrigating the uninhabitable lands unsettled in Israel. Tourism and trade will increase when the issue is resolved.

Arab Clerics don't want prosperity in the Middle East because it's more difficult to exert control over the financially independant. Sounds like our Democrats.

More fighting please. I don't get enough from Julie.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 19:54:52 (ZULU)

Relax guys. This fight is not going to happen.

Joe M: "...I was by no means planning or participating in anything official. I should watch how I phrase stuff!...But that ain't official policy or position!"

I realized that. I asked you because you have a lot of relavent training, experience and information.

CDC'
Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 20:15:57 (ZULU)

Joe S.......

Afer-Action completed....sent it to Mick....photos came out great too...enjoy your suds and brat with PeteL in Deutchland....see you when your passport gets re-stamped...

cmoore....

out....

cmoore
Dago, SoCal, USA - Sunday, April 4, 2004, at 22:04:27 (ZULU)

Hey Fellas,(and gals)

Been gone a while. Too dang much admin stuff goin on here.

Anaway, As BKS said, the adopt-a-sniper support thing per snipersonline.org, a real good, for real way to get stuff directly to like minded folks. I'm not really a full fledged snipersonline board member, just an adjunct & member. Operator/moderator is here in home state, a fellow LE guy. We all assisted in range operation at the conference/competition.

Yes, the snow over covers are painted tan or there abouts for camo.

I also have two co-workers in or on way to the sand trap. One doin MP stuff in Iraq, the other soon to be promo'd to Capt., in a infantry unit. I'll sure send camera stuff as well as care pkgs.

One way or another fellas, keep on keepin on supportin ALL of our folks over yonder. I know you're/we're all doin pretty dern good.

Good folks like Bruce, CB, Joe & BKS really stoke the fires of support.

Deputy Doug

ps. the Cheytac thing is interesting but questionable.

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Monday, April 5, 2004, at 03:03:41 (ZULU)

After 17 years of stumbling around in the howling wilderness, am I seeing an oasis, or is it just a mirage? Not only has SAPD decided to allow sworn peace officers to carry a backup piece, they're going to allow us to carry AR-15's (privately purchased, of course). Not only that, but the qualified AR guys on patrol are now going to actually play with the SWAT boys to get some interdepartmental standardization. We've even started doing building entry, active shooter and hostage scenario training. It's creepy.....I'm waitning for the little chinese guy to jump out and yell "SUPPLIES!"....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, April 5, 2004, at 13:52:51 (ZULU)

Hi All Looks like the Spanish terrorists saved the Spanish government some money on a court case.

Had a good weekend shooting down Bisley at the British Sporting Rifle Club they have excellent facilities there. Did reasonably well on my first shooting of Running boar which was quiet interesting, especially as they run a course or fast and slow movers down there.

Peter L – I think you paint a picture slightly worse than it is although the BNP is making great headway and other parties are looking over their shoulders. But I don’t believe Britain is on the verge of civil unrest, but yet again I do wonder why the present Gov't want to remove arms from civilian ownership contrary to all evidence that it is reducing gun crime etc.

John B - Incoming e-mail

Jo Mahon – Your far to level headed to do anything silly (he he) but it is good to hear someone spell out what the other options /consideration’s are. Watch your six

Dry
uk - Monday, April 5, 2004, at 13:55:23 (ZULU)

Hello men: A couple of things.

SC was my first forey into the internet forum world. Jumped into it with both feet (Some here may remember that).

I have been hanging out at SH and SP too lately (Along with some others) trying to get support for this adopt a sniper thing.

God knows those here at SC have given. Some greatly. God (and Bruce and Joe) knows who you are.

However, in the "Sniper specific" vein, Thomas over at Snipers Paradise has opened a website of his own.

It is also linked with the snipersonline program already in place but offers a task specific website that allows Thomas' computer abilities to shine and just one more place to be direcly involved with payback for 911. He's got it running I believe. Only to get better.

Just food for thought. www.adoptasniper.com.

brian k. sain
Monday, April 5, 2004, at 15:53:35 (ZULU)

Mark Bowden - of "Blackhawk Down" fame - writes:

"The worst answer the U.S. can make...is back down...Aidid's supporters were decimated and demoralized the day after the Battle of Mogadishu. Some...were certain the U.S. would violently respond...the U.S. did nothing...the America-haters around the world learned what they thought was a essential truth about the United States: Kill a few Americans and the most powerful nation on Earth will run away. This...is the strategy of Osama bin Laden.

...Pictures like those we saw from Fallujah last week should...anger us and strengthen our resolve. The response should not be to back away from the task, but to redouble our efforts...

...the gory carnival on the streets of Fallujah...was deliberate and it must be answered deliberately...

The rebels...in Fallujah ought to be hunted down...but they are not the only ones responsible. The public celebration that followed was licensed and encouraged by whatever leadership exists in Fallujah. Whether religious or secular, its insult, warning, and challenge has been broadcast around the world. It must be answered."

Click my name.

CDC'
Monday, April 5, 2004, at 17:07:47 (ZULU)

**********SniperQuest 2004 ****************

Well gang SQ 04 is only about 6 weeks away! The prize table is growing daily and it should be as good as last year! The "Top Gun" rifle is a real special weapon built by 4, yes FOUR, of the best smiths in the business, in my opinion anyway!

If your application isn't in yet get moving, we're going to have another great match this year!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Monday, April 5, 2004, at 20:44:29 (ZULU)

The S is about to HTF in Fallujah. Our civilian leadership is smart. Click my name.

CDC'
Monday, April 5, 2004, at 21:21:11 (ZULU)

Hello All,

Just back from ABQ, stopped at Art's jerky, Bruce was right, jerky is excellent and Art is the salt of the earth.

Bruce, sorry we could not get together for that beer, maybe next time around. Tried a micro brew called Fat Tire at the Fox and Hound, pretty good beer and the food was good too, oh, and very nice scenery as well. ;) Gave your name and address out at our FOP meeting and told them what you were doing. Don't know what will happen, hopefully some of them will send you a check.

BKS, did the box arrive yet?

Take care all!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Monday, April 5, 2004, at 21:42:05 (ZULU)

Just adopted a Force Recon platoon and also a platoon of SEALs.

Two more platoons of MC S/S coming up too. This thing has taken off.

www.snipersonline.org - please donate if you can.

Payback is a bitch Osama.

brian k. sain
Monday, April 5, 2004, at 21:52:49 (ZULU)

test - zulu test.... Bruce gave me his annual zulu time offset adjustment reminder call today ....LOL...

ken hunter
nokesville, va, USofA - Monday, April 5, 2004, at 23:46:06 (ZULU)

A 308 achieves maximum powder burn at around 20" of barrel length. Does anyone know when a 338 Ultra Mag achieves maximum powder burn, or where I can go to find out?

I'm going to be building a 338 Ultra Mag for target shooting from 1000-1600K. Any suggestions?

Thank you for your input.

Semper Fi,

Lt Jarr

USMC

Lt Jarr
Miramar, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 00:19:52 (ZULU)

Got through 2 weeks of class with quite good results. PR7 turned out 8 pretty good shooters. Had a 12/14 and 13/14 first round hits from 250 to 764 on the first UKD shoot. Everybody got multiple hits on the 1000 yard target, good wind calls running 1/2 mil right to 2 mils left. Nice little fishtail going on and the observers kept up pretty good. The first 5 day FTX class ended up with 7 shooters, one no show. 8 missions in 5 days, 5 "full profile", insert to extract. The last mission ended with some really nasty weather, 45 degs and rain throughout the night. The final shoot-ex was cancelled, I think we needed sonar and Mk 48's. Everyone did right fine jobs and learned a great deal. We've scheduled one more PR7 and an FTX for later in the year, check the office or the web site.

Cory Trapp
Paulden, AZ, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 01:29:26 (ZULU)

On another note, I'm doing a T&E on an Armalite AR-30 in .338LM. Initial impressions.

Good - Makes weight, 15 lbs with a Nightforce 5.5 x 22. Nice trigger right from the box, 3 lbs, crisp. Scope base nice and solid, 'T' shaped recoil lug and #10 screws. Recoil almost non-existant. The muzzle break is ugly, but it works. 3 shots to zero after the collimator indicated 0,0. First shot dead on at 25 yards, 100 yards 6 inches high, down 6 minutes on the NF knobs, prints first round dead on the crosshair. 4 more make a .454" group edge to edge. Seems to shoot.

Not so good - Enormous channel under bbl invites all sorts of crap to collect, needs a foam filler. Bolt lift very stiff, fairly rough action. Will probably need more than 15 MOA of slope in the base, we'll know more tomorrow when I get out to 1300. No way to operate safety in firing position. Magazine VERY loose fit. Any pressure on mag binds bolt, will not feed or extract. Pistol grip makes rapid bolt work very difficult.

Cory Trapp
Paulden, AZ, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 01:43:49 (ZULU)

Is there any solders that have been in Iraq that can back up the radiation poisoning stories that are floating on the net?

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/180333p-156685c.html

Double Tap
IN, 46375 - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 03:28:37 (ZULU)

Lt. Jarr, Mike Miller has an article in Reviews about the 338 Ultra. Worked well for him.

Any crowd of people that celebrate the killing and mutilation of Americans do not deserve to be alive. If we are going to establish a democracy in Iraq most of the enemy will have to die soon.IMHO

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 03:37:41 (ZULU)

Dan: My disclaimer on official positions was for the unknown folks who may have read my earlier posts...all the regulars know what I do here and are used to my musings. Sorry if it sounded like I directed it at you or any regular; it wasn't---I was just coverin' my ass on an opinion that had the potential to get pretty parallel with reality.

Double Tap: That stuff is nasty (DU), but there are very narrow ways to get exposed. Souvenir hunting is one easy way, but there are other issues...There are so many other parasitic infections, bacterial infections, and molds that are new (for us)that are causing health issues. God knows what I've caught (its going around pretty hard)--but it is unlike anything I've had before. The point is, the DU issue is serious, and must be tracked, but there are other issues that will cloud the causes of any health problems from this expeditionary adventure. The smoke stacks here at Doha---hell, nobody knows what that stuff is blowing across our camp. I ran through some thick concentrations just before I got sick. It was like breathing fiberglass---instant irritation. The docs say "no relation" but I ain't believing it for a minute. The point is, there are so many variables in play that DU is not a major concern by itself. And, concentrations of DU dust are only found in places you ain't supposed to be playing around. Like enemy armor. We had that happen here with war trophies. Those vehicles have joined the bone yard way out in the desert. It is dangerous, and I wouldn't discount the issue altogether. Hell, the misses had to do some shedding just hitting sand, eh? But I have to think that there are so many other health issues that come into play that muddy these waters. Any acute DU health issues will most likely be from stupid curiousity. The chronic stuff is going to be a major problem sorting thru the myriad of crap that floats through the air in the region...like the pnuemonia thing last year. Who knows what causes all the problems...?

On my x wife number one: She found me HERE! Heheh. My SC posts are google-able. Apparantly, there's a photo out there too.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 09:01:04 (ZULU)

Fred; If I were allowed to express a political opinion without a bunch of shit coming down it would be in agreement with what you said if I understood you right. We just can't deal with these people the way we are. The only way there will be peace in Iraq is if everybody there has left the country. The society and opposing forces (opposing each other) there just doesn't/ hasn't allowed for peace and co-existance with any other. American's don't understand that because the country is different and trying to get along between factions and races is their prayer since the Civil War finally has subsided. The people of the middle east don't have that prayer in spite of their insistance they are a peace loving religious country. IT's in their religion and their culture and it's not going to change soon. They only respect power and force of arms. They can be scared into peace but never threatened by prospects of war and weak presence/occupancy of foreign powers.

Cory; my impressions of the AR-30 were about the same as yours. You could run a goat between that barrel and the supporting (hard to call it a stock)Frame. The pistol grip was not my favorite Item either although I have a Plaster Choate that looks about the same it doesn't bother me the way the AR-30 did. Shooting accuracy fair and trigger nice.

Brogers
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 12:40:29 (ZULU)

'yote-Bait,

Mornin' Mr. Bill,

Stand by to repel boarders! ;o) We plan to arrive in your AO on the evening of 10 June and probably leave Sunday evening or Monday. Last time I checked there were seventeen of us. Wonder what sort of "entertainment" Velma will come up with this time.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 13:07:45 (ZULU)

Gents,

The net picture:

http://images.google.com/images?q=Joe+Mahon&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=20&sa=N

I guess the photo was taken in 97, when I was flying Hueys in the DC area supporting the National Scout Jamboree. Fun mission, Secret Service sniper ride one night (POTUS coverage)...volley ball by day. Oh, and my team won first place in the tournament too. Well, now ya'll can see the scoundrel middle-man in the GFG program.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 13:34:56 (ZULU)

Among Shia clerics, there's an ongoing struggle to control the official message. The radicals in Iran, Palestine, etc are using this dumb kid Sadr. We just painted a bulls-eye on him.

"The sky is not falling. The decision to confront the Muqtada al-Sadr's challenge to rule-of-law and liberty will cause a short-term spike in violence, but lead to long-term improvement. Iraqis see any failure to defend rule-of-law as Coalition weakness. How could the United States be serious about democracy, Iraqis ask, when we left such a challenge to rule-of-law go unchallenged? Thankfully, Iraqis now know that we will meet challenges head-on. It is a lesson that should also be understood in Syria and Iran."

Click my name.

Remember what happened during the Tet Offensive. The NLF came out of hiding and attacked US and RVN forces. We killed almost all of them. The big media showed pictures of an insignificant squad action at our embassy and played it as an American defeat. Poor, befuddled old Walter Cronkite (the most trusted dim-bulb in America) went on his broadcast and, in his solemn baratone, said something like, "It's now clear to this reporter that our effort in Viet Nam is certain to fail."

A majority of TV zombies bought it and defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory.

Some stuff in Iraq is burning. We're taking some casualties. Don't let the media fool you. We're winning.

CDC'
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 14:01:08 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

I'm just a dumbass so please tell me which photo is yours.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 14:09:26 (ZULU)

Thanks to Gerry in OR and Bill and Judy in CA, We're back up to $123.20.

Plus got a phone call from an outfit in CA yesterday wanting to know where to send a $1500.00 check to.

Folks, if you got an Email from Insain, respond to it, and respond generously. Brian is one of the white hats. He's doing great things for the guys on the sharp end. I am proud to call him a friend.

Joe:

Gotta make a run to the Rez today for more chaw, then your boxes go out tomorrow. Jerky, chaw, squeeze bottles, and your flag and shirt from Art. Siphoned off about 15 packs of jerky to use as padding in a shipment of Mildot Masters going to a bunch of Marine snipers on a ship, getting ready to deploy to A'stan........they also got some bumper stickers and a front license plate.

Art is expanding his GFG program to accept donations of things like baby wipes, sunscreen, lip balm, etc.........which CB and I can collect when we make the run up there to collect the jerky.

I'm Emailing him the list you gave me. He'll post it in the shop.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 16:18:08 (ZULU)

In Fallujah: "First, the Marines are moving at a far faster tempo than predicted. Also, they seem less impeded by civilians and don't seem to need to process them out of the way. It appears they are looking through specific places without having to do a block by block search, perhaps because they have better intel. Second, the Marines are operating over a far wider area than Fallujah. They seem to be raiding throughout the environs, perhaps using the mini-raid method discussed in Operation Mountain Storm. Mobility and networked resources allow them to create a "virtually everywhere" type of combat presence."

Click my name.

CDC'
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 16:19:20 (ZULU)

Doc: I won't agree with you there....so put on yer reading glasses and look for a volley ball. Heheh. As for the rest of those shots, one guy of the same name is a college-weenie academic who is smarter than this Joe, and my current before/ after shots would be a great ad for potato chips---not the gym! Heheh. OK, if all else fails, it's the shot with BDUs and teeshirts...and my trademark ragged-edge of regulation hair.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 16:27:41 (ZULU)

Last one. Eight Blackwater employees repel 'hundreds' of Iraqi militia. Click my name.

CDC'
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 16:30:51 (ZULU)

Ref Blackwater. Them dudes got it going on. Bet they slayed the crap outta them A-holes. So much for them being a soft target, huh. Bet the rags didn't know what they were getting into when they attacked them.

Joe, I'm as dumb as Doc I couldn't find the picture either. If Doc found it, well, I'm dumber. I didn't see a volleyball in any of those shots.

Double tap, I'm sure if there was any radiation posioning taking place we would know. It would validate the weapons of mass destruction idea.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, US of A by God - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 17:18:12 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

I finally solved the mystery, I think. For some strange reason your photo isn't on that page. I clicked on the advanced search link and found a picture of an Army dude by the same name as yours. Knew it couldn't be you because this guy isn't near as ugly as most chopper drivers I've known. ;o)

WY6,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 17:25:01 (ZULU)

Mahon's picture is on page 1..the link puts you on page 2.

medicjim
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 17:31:53 (ZULU)

Well, it was on page two for my check...so I linked it. Hey, maybe google shuffles them up? Heheh. Now the really disturbing part is that photo is out there, and I never knew it until today. Even though info is great---too much is a baad thing.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 18:36:18 (ZULU)

OK, guys.. Here it goes...

My department(Memphis PD)pistol team is hosting a NRA Regional PPC pistol match on the 23-25 of April and we need some door prizes. If you guys want some free advertising as a sponsor, send me a T shirt, coffee mug, hat, or a product and you will be listed as a sponsor in the match and the item will be given as a door prize. Our team is NOT funded by the dept, and does all of its own fund raising. Any help is greatly appreciated...

Send to:

Officer Chris Jamison

MPD FTU

4399 O.K. Robertson Rd.

Memphis, TN 38127

(901)354-1680

I will happily fax or mail you a dept. letterhead with info if need for a tax deduction...

Again, Thanks in Advance for your support... Chris Jamison

Chris Jamison
Memphis , TN , USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 19:44:51 (ZULU)

Back from the Rez, spent $126.00 on chaw, leaving us $2.80 in the hole (for now). When that $1500 check comes in, Art's gonna be busy.

Joe,

Boxes (finally) go out tomorrow. Be sure and snag your flag and shirt before you divvy the stuff up.

And tell the Marines around Fallujah to remember the verse (fourth verse, if I recollect right) from the classic Tennessee Ernie Ford song, "Sixteen Tons"....

"If you see me comin', better step aside.

A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died.

One fist of iron, the other of steel,

If the right one don't get ya, then the left one will."

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 20:58:16 (ZULU)

Reports say the insurgents in Fallujah aren't "shooting and scooting"; they're digging in and fighting.

They can't be that stupid.

CDC'
Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 23:20:38 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a movie about Uranium munitions use and hazards. If there is anyone that needs the info (military personal) try this link.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3581.htm

I have not seen the movie I have dial up service, if someone can view it post a remark good or bad to see if it sounds legit.

Double Tap
IN, USA - Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 23:51:07 (ZULU)

A word of caution for anyone thinking of ordering from this company: http://www.tacticalshop.com/

In Feb. I ordered an Eagle Stock Pack from these people, paid with a money order. Money order cashed, no merchandise to date. I called the telephone # and found that it is disconnected. I've sent 5 emails, all unanswered. I can understand if they are back ordered but I would think that they could at least answer my email and let me know if that is the case. I think I'm out $30. Dang I hate people like this!

Rant mode off.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 02:50:19 (ZULU)

Doc; Sounds good, if there are 17 of you... you might just have enough re-enforcements to get a beer in that Mexican beer joint. But be sure you all have your Kabars with you. It's all quiet out at Velma's. Don't thing she's had a drug raid or fugutive picked up in over a week now. It's not a tough town out here just tough to find a beer where you can drink it in peace without getting your throat cut. Ha, as you well know. Looking forward to it! The Dogs are so bad the county is controling on private land with 4 wheelers and bad tasting grain. A little lead poison won't hurt em much.

Brogers
Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 04:10:16 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,(ladies too)

If any of you PA residents are interrested, the new PA assault weapons ban, House Bill # 2451 is out in full bloom. Looks like they want them all. This is bad. Very bad.

Go here if you want a look :http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/BI/ALL/2003//0//HB2451.HTM

Did I mention this is bad. Very bad. I see many angry letters and phone calls in my future.

Steve Racer
Dillsburg, PA, - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 05:49:09 (ZULU)

I just got a virus email from Pete R.(site admin). I know he didn't send it and I didn't open it but "heads up".

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 12:00:04 (ZULU)

Steve; your surely right about that being bad. Did you mention that? This is about the worst most restrictive bill I've seen and probably won't pass due to constitutional infringements regarding the required background checks of the owners of the grandfathered weapons but you never know how they might strip it down and push it through. The bastards never go away. They always get just a little something from things like this and God help us all if a statte were to enact such a law as this, would prove we are fighting for out freedom in the wrong place again. What is your make up there in the state house? This looks like a bunch of fool Democrats with time on their hands but what is your ratio there? That business about the barrel shroud is laughable but to those who "don't get it" who knows what they might do. Isn't that were we keep the Liberty Bell? Sometimes I"m glad I don't have much longer on this planet.

Hope you all had time to read Dan's story on the Blackwater stand off. Instead of a story of the bravery displayed here by the men that were there most of the press just marked on the fact that we had lost 4 civilian guards who were unable to protect themselves. "We has met the enemy and it is us! " Pogo.

Brogers
Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 12:09:43 (ZULU)

Back in krautland, Joe S gimmie a bell buddy..

only managed to get out stalking one morning (lazy sod Jon B wouldn't get out of his B&B bed n accompany me) only saw a doe.

Had some fun with the english firearms legislation folks, seems they don't know thier own laws(well most of them anyway), they have been cutting and pasting between UK and Euro laws and have managed to incorporate a firearms legislatio which seems to contradict its self on many points, eg. European and German law dictates that i can buy a rifle ( 3 actualy) or any major part of a rifle, bolt, reciever or barrel) any where in the EU. English law states that i can't, but then 3 paragraphs later it states that i can if i have the authority from my country of residence. My hunting license is my authority, but depending on which dealer (ffl) or firearms licensing authority i speak to in the UK, i can either buy or not as the case may be(depending on which paragraph they read,,by buy i mean pay for and leave with, as apposed to pay for and have sent to my home address in another EU country, all agree i can do the latter, funny, some of them (depending on which paragraph they read again)won't trust me, the law abiding gun owner with gun licenses from more countries than you can shake a stick at, to transport a rifle i just purchased back to mainland Europe, (along side the 308 i carried with me for hunting anyway) but they will trust the damn Pakki posty guy who picks it up, the post master who delivers it to the airport, the airline who handle the post, the turkish posty who drives the van here and the post girl (who is very nice by the way) who delivers the rifle to me on her bicycle.. aarrggg, anyways, when it comes to the crunch EU laws are actualy applicable over the laws of any EU member country. Seems that the UK don't know what the hell they are doing, they are trying to cherry pick bits of administration to restrict UK gun owners and have screwed up. Makes me wonder why i can have a pistol and a revolver in Germany and a Moderator in the UK but not vice versa, without a licence i can buy everything to reload ammo in Germany but the powder, in Holland (30 mins drive away) i can buy everything but the primers and in the Uk i can buy everything but the damn bullets (expanding.so by my traveling 30 minutes up the damn auto bahn, the law becomes useless, because i can hold powder, i just cant buy it. argg It explicitly says in black and white on my EU firearms pass that i do not need a visitors firearms permit for any other EU country if the purpose of my visit is to hunt or to competition shoot with a catagory C or D firearm ( shot gun or non semi auto rifle) but the UK insist on vistors obtaining a visitors permit. the EU is a farce.

Any body played with a titanium remington 700? i saw one in the UK going for a good price and thought it might be the answer to my rusting problems..

On top of all that i got a nice letterfrom the local Gov't , in English telling me i shoukld register to vote in the this years European parliament elections, too right i am going to bloody well vote.. for the BNP euro candidate if thereis one..

Dry.. you take a ride up north mate, the wheels of English nationalsim are starting to slowly turn, many many people are fired up about the imigration issue, white English is the ethnic minority in many areas and the ethnic majority tend to not let you forget it, plans for marches, which will undoubtably turn into riots and anti imigrant violence are bieng planned. Seems that Kosovans, Albanians and generaly former yougoslavs, followed by some former eastern block nationals are the top of the list followed by muslims. every one seems happy to have the Indians and chineese and the west indians,, but everything else every one wantsrif off big style..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 12:29:34 (ZULU)

DU and Gulf War Syndrome...

Didn't the Gulf War Syndrome list DU as one of the more likely sources of many of the inflictions? I know destroyed pesticides and chemical weapons were also listed and no clear culprit was visible, but I thought DU was the most suspicious...

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 12:40:16 (ZULU)

Pete L.

I got one awhile back from Marty that has a fluted bolt and 20 in barrel. It might weigh 4.0Kg total. It kinda kicks like a missouri mule but, then again, it's from there. I'm not sure if Marty built it or George but it's definitely as accurate and I think a tad smoother than any of the other 700s' I've got. It's also camo painted or tefloned so I can't comment on the finish durability but TI ain't supposed to rust is it??

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 13:12:38 (ZULU)

The titanium Remmy has a titanium receiver, stainless barrel and somebody's plastic stock. Very light.

Sharon

Larry J. porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, U. S. of A!!!! - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 15:13:07 (ZULU)

"Command Post" has a good play-by-play of Iraq ops. Click my name.

A couple of observations: We're sending in armor, air support (including AC130s) and reinforcements. The Enemy's "Blackhawk Down" strategy failed. The "Tet Offensive" scenario (by which we win on the ground but lose on TV) isn't happening. Our media no longer has a credible, dominant newspaper to set the agenda and a trusted but clueless network newsreader to bamboozle the rubes. The New York Times is a standing joke and t.v. news is fragmented and has lost much of its power.

So, if we're going to lose this one, they are going to need to use a different trick.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 16:00:30 (ZULU)

This guy says the same thing but says it better. Click my name.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 16:10:37 (ZULU)

Does anyone have a recommendation for which Badger rings to use on an AR10A4, should I go with the high rings or will the mediums work?

Thanks

Keith

Keith
Northcentral, WV, - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 17:05:54 (ZULU)

Thanks for the comments on the titanium remmy, i do like that spiral fluted bolt look.. i was looking at egun today and there was exactly what i had been looking for for about 6 months, a stainless remmy 700 in 30-06 at a price that was right.so i bought it. by the time ive sold the stock, barrel and scope n mounts to some gulible german the action will be for free.. sorted..

Hell i just re discovered Scrumpy, bought 2 big jugs back from the UK, i'm just through my 1st glass and the shit is going to my head already, you tried that stuff yet JR? made from apples, makes you say oooh aarrr a lot and chew straw and lean on pitch forks whilst wearing long white cloaks and straw hats..

Jon B, why don't you tell us all about your side line as a street entertainer?

I got in contact with the company that coats the Sig 550 (StGW 90) for the Swiss, seems they are happy to accomodate civies with small orders or requirements, half decent price too.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 18:47:26 (ZULU)

Keith Knotts,

I sent you something, but your addy bounced it. Hit me offline.

Matt K.
Chattanooga, TN, - Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 22:26:03 (ZULU)

Kieth, on the Badgers for your AR10...... What model scope are you using and do you have a flip down front sight? If you have a 50mm, you will need mediums or highs to get the bell up over the handguard. Call Marty at Badger, give him your scope model and he will probably be able to give you the exact rings that you need.

Bolt
NC, - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 00:32:40 (ZULU)

http://www.txmarks.org/news/allarmy2004.htm

http://www.txmarks.org/news/allarmybyusamu.htm

Texans won BIG at the All-Army. Had good matches, gave away 20 trophy weapons, lots of prizes.

Most important, we trained 135-150 soldiers to shoot. To 500 yards. With rack-grade M16A2s and M16A4s.

M14s with irons, and M24s at 600, 800, and 1,000 yards.

sinister
Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 01:53:00 (ZULU)

Gents,

Sinister, sounds like you folks had a hoot. Nice to see somebody training to 500 yards. The Marines have always shot 200, 300, and 500 yards for qualification. I instills one of the supreme elements needed for combat...Confidence!

Started on a wallpaper removal in our guest bathroom. It's gone from that to new countertops/sink, new bath/shower unit, repair sub-floor.

You get the picture....how do women manage to get away with this all the time? Genetic or...?

Doc has cleared me to return to work on April 16th. I'm ready, but it's going to be a long road back, as they had me on limited physical activity until they could get the neural side of my brain and my muscles in sink. Yeah, I needed to get my head and ass wired together...:-)

CDC, appreciate your updates. Think your take is dead in the X-ring.

I'm hoping we don't pull out prematurely, because of the upcoming elections. We need to stay the course.

Seems they are blaming GWB for all that's transpired. From the economy, the Iraqi occupation, you name it. Americans have a short memory. Seems to me that all that came about because of the previous

president's policies that left us weak and set the stage for our current involvement.

Enough ranting.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 05:25:19 (ZULU)

Brogers,

The part that really got me was the stuff about the pump-action guns. Where the hell did that come from? My one buddy at work was very dis-interrested before but, when his Rem. 760 was in question he was a little concerned. One of them 'not in my back yard' deals, right?

I too have little doubt it will pass as-is, if at all. We are pretty solidly Republican, forget the percentage right of the top of my head.The fat-head gov. is from that city with so much brotherly love. Yes, they have that there broken bell down there too, though you`d never know they actually remember that fact. All the sponsors of this piece of shit bill are Dems save for one. Fair to say she`s a RINO.

I e-mailed my representative last night. If he actually reads it, his scalp will be scortched. I`m not near done yet. I had every one I could corner at work today pissed off. This will not stand! No part of it! Give me liberty or give me death.

Did you catch the part about the State Police coming into your house to check on your evil assault weapon not more than once a year, I believe?! How nice of them to limit it to one visit a year! I gotta` go get some duct tape for my head, I feel something warm running down my neck. Excuse me...

Steve Racer
Dillsburg, PA, - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 05:30:57 (ZULU)

Tony,

You have mail. N/A. Re: Mk 4 scope

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 05:57:24 (ZULU)

Steve R. ,You ought to come to New Joisey !!

We have a law for every occasion ,including BB guns !!

Yes BB guns !! High cap Mags,HP Ammo, etc, etc, etc.

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey ( peoples Republic of ), US of A - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 10:35:18 (ZULU)

Steven Dzupin

Consider yourself lucky your not in the UK

The police come to visit your home, you supply 4 photographs, have the equivalent to a FBI back ground check. Two independent people that are well regarded in the community (but not police officers) who have known you for 5 years to supply statements. Be a member of a government registered shooting club for a minimum of 6months a minimum of a ¼” plate safe with 7 leaver locks connected to an internal brick wall. And they like to see an alarm system as well. Written permission for the land you want to shoot over, which has been check by the police that it is ok for that calibre of weapon. The police officer doubtless doesn’t shoot himself and was only allowed to be the firearms office because he has expressed a dislike for them. Have been told of instances where officers have been refused for firearms officers due to much interest or already shoots.

For this you get >>>>

Limited ammunition (specified for each calibre)

No pistols

No automatic weapons

No semi-auto rifles unless .22 rimfire

Limit on calibre’s allowed

Limit on number of weapons owned

No BB rifle unless under 12ftlb unless on firearms certificate

Oh and a bolt action rifle if they cant find a reason to refuse you.

Sorry for the rant but in was conceived in the USA and missed being a duel citizen by 2months never forgave my mother for that one. And would love to have some of the freedoms that you do.

Lucky sods.

Dry
uk - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 12:56:20 (ZULU)

Question: What's the legal name for someone who gives aid and comfort to the enemy?

Answer: Senator.

Click my name for good Iraq sitrep. Remember that things are never as bad (or good) as first reports suggest.

Note that Egypt's Islamic Brotherhood has thrown in with Sadr, who has - in turn - sided with Hamas and Hezbullah. Their C&C is shot. They have no arty, air-cover, armor or resupply. A very few are well trained. Most are untrained rag-bags. They are trying to make Iraq's Shiites think that we'll cave and that the Shiites better get on board. Senator's Kennedy and Byrd are cooperating fully. This is the "Tet" strategy.

Our Civilian Command has seen this trick before. The answer is to fight to win. That's what we'll do.

CDC'
Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 14:18:13 (ZULU)

MattK, e-mail coming your way sub. AR10 rings.

Bolt, I will be using a Leupold MKIV scope on this rifle. I am not to concerned about the scope clearing the rifle but more concerned about the cheekweld on the stock and alignment with the scope. I don't have the fold-down sight yet, but I plan to get it as part of the backup sights.

Alan sent me an e-mail and said Marty told him to get the ultra-high rings for his AR10T. So that is probably the route I will go.

Thanks for all the input guys.

Who is going to be at the ASC this year. John (Aceigh) and Kevin (Andy's Dad) you guys are going to be there right? Danny and Charlie are plannning to be there.

Keith

Keith
Northcentral, WV, - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 14:22:42 (ZULU)

Get ready for the Identification chip that is put under your skin. I dont think this is a joke they have been talking about this for a while it, is used in Spain at a night club for VIP's. This sounds like 1984. What are they going to do when the chips are cut out of people for identification theft in stead of stealing someones walet you can just cut off an arm. Here is the link to the company that makes it they are going to be traveling every where to promote the chip in a bus and you can pre register for the chip when it comes to your town.

http://www.adsx.com/prodservpart/verichip.html

Double Tap
IN, USA - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 14:27:34 (ZULU)

Sadr's only chance is to unite the Shiites. If this link is right, he won't. Click my name.

CDC'
Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 15:33:36 (ZULU)

Click my name for excellent overall analysis of Iraq situation with links.

CDC'
Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 16:00:17 (ZULU)

Dry,were about up to you by 80% and the politicos are workin on the rest of it.

Our permits have many reasons for rejection including a box marked

OTHER ?

God save us !!

God Bless President Bush !

All our Troopers &

the Queen Mum too !

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 16:14:29 (ZULU)

Subject: My scout rifle, M1 Garand
Gentlemen; I would like to hear from anyone who has mounted a scope scout style on a Garand. I have posted details of my rifle about a week ago. It has a Burris 10X scope on a match grade Garand.

Semper Fi; Leatherneck

Leatherneck
Avon, Ma., U.S.A. - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 17:08:57 (ZULU)

Keith,

The ultra-high rings are the correct choice. They are 1.4" high and will put the center-line of the scope at the same height as the sight on a carry handle.

J Copeland
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 17:27:25 (ZULU)

Pete,

Scrumpy? yeah, usually get a couple cans every so often, fairly cheap and BIG cans!!! Not much of a cider drinker, the local lads who seem to like the 'snakebites', usually end up in fisticuffs and jail...Drink too much malt to mix me Irish with the mad apple...I'm close enough to jail as it is(right across the street)...

Dry,

You aren't kidding, this UK licensing is crap...For long guns in SoDak, if you kept your nose relatively clean and out of prison, about all you get for hassle is the ATF form and FBI check, done..Here, they want me to have my Sherriff(and our sherriffs are different than UK sherriffs but neither side seems to understand that) from back home write a letter telling them I'm not a psychopath(and the US Sherriff says we don't do that here, fill out a CCW form, that should do, and I have to say, NO that won't work I need a bloody letter, bastads)send cops to your house to give you the once over, check out your safe you have to bolt to your wall, ask you to have people tell them what a nice bloke you are, explain why you want to own this firearm or even a CALIBER(eh???), tell them where you might have this rifle, and then contemplate whether you should, I could go on and on....

No offense BK and Mike, and youse other flatfoots, but I hate cops in my house, because they are usually suspicious from the start and I always have to move the body, prefer the police after hours when they are over for a beer or two..

Plus the UK limits you on what they deem appropriate, ammo, caliber, types of rifles, actions..I hate limits..It's a whole new ball game for this hayseed, I'll put it that way..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 18:16:01 (ZULU)

JR, no offense at all. I dont believe in LE Fishing trips either.

Old Cop saying "F.. with the folks that need to be F... with and leave the rest of the folks the F..., alone" In short too many real dirt bags out there to go snooping in good honest folks gun lockers.

Well, frankly James Jarrett always says to me "You sure your a cop and not SF?" So who really knows.

CDC, been reading your links. Thanks. You are saving me a bunch of time and it great inof. Please keep up the good work.

Just got a new MK4 M1 6.5-20 from Leupold, with the new glass and man its sweet.

Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 18:27:16 (ZULU)

Dry: If you want our freedoms, well come on over! There's still some room left here in Texas. Man, I got guns floating all over the house, and God help the man who says he's gonna come in and check my weapons. On another subject, doncha just love it when you see the Dems get a good, swift kick in the balls? They yowled and whined so long and loud about Condoleeza Rice testifying in public. She handed them their heads this morning. It was hilarious....I ain't seen that kinda rope-a-dope since Cassius, er, Ali. They never laid a glove on her, and she made them two Dem attack-chihuahuas look like idiots. Good reason why the lib media don't like to report the real news, but Fox carried the whole thing. I'm still chuckling.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 18:38:35 (ZULU)

Double Tap. i would have my kids tagged if i could. the tag should then be removed aged 18. at least if some prevert grabs one thy can be tracked quick. I saw and encouraging bumper sticker here today, in german it said. Animals with rabies are killed, so why not rapists and child molesters?

Dry, hell its funny but here in continental europe we have more freedoms than the UK, but mostly as a hunter.

we can have. pistols revolvers, semi auto weapons, etc.the only thing they get funny about is a moderator and thats cos they stil think the red army faction is a threat and they watch too many bond movies.. The police have nothing to do with administering the firearms licensing. Its done at the town hall. Once you have completed you hunting licens qualification you can basicaly have what you want, bar a moderator,if you want one of them you have to provide good reason.I do not have toprovide a reason to buy any hunting rifle.. i like the colour will do..

I am about to apply for my UK licence, i just know that the chief firearms licensing officer will shit a brick every time i apply for a variation, cos she can't say no because i just buy the sod here in germany, put it on my euro pass and there aint a shit she can do about it, if she gets anti, i will just hand the damn license in and go back to getting the visitors pass, which under EU law i don't bloody well need, i can see me giving em a run for thier money..

every day my emigration to the US gets a step nearer though.

Spoke to Joe S today, he's on a shopathon in the fatherland.. gonna meet up with him next week to sample some beer n schnitzels..

I put my beloved marlin lever gun up for sale today... sad i know.. but i need to finance the stainless remmy i bought yesterday, and besides, i want a curved pistol grip version any ways..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 20:06:16 (ZULU)

Near Fallujah:

""The Americans think we are afraid while we recognise them as cowards," said the young man, the commander of this small band of fighters in this village. "We have many heroes who are standing here and elsewhere. We will not be afraid of their tanks and their weapons and their other equipment. We will stay until we defeat them."

Suddenly the gunmen scattered, unnerved by the sound of an approaching US helicopter. Villagers who had been standing in the street fled into their shops and houses and, within seconds, the crossroads was deserted."

You can click my name if you want, but that's the good part.

Mike M and Sir Wes: I was wondering if anyone was reading this stuff.

CDC'
Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 20:17:25 (ZULU)

REF: Chandler Precision Rifle II Course

I just got off the phone with Norm Chandler. I had left a message on his machine that I’d like to attend his 3-day Precision Rifle II course at Blackwater Lodge later in April.

He said that he wouldn’t normally entertain the idea of anyone that had not completed his Chandler Precision Rifle I course but that I could try to change his mind. He asked about my experience.

I ran down the list of other schools I’ve attended and he either had a negative comment about their products or claimed to have never heard of them.

Finally he mentioned that there would be a weapon requirement at the PRII course and that unless he was sure of the quality of a student’s gear he wouldn’t be allowed to attend. He mentioned that if I didn’t have his PRI training under my belt I’d probably just hold up the class and he couldn’t allow that.

I apologized for bothering him with my frivolous request and thanked him for his time and hung up.

I guess I’ll spend my $775 and three days somewhere else.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 20:39:55 (ZULU)

Chris,

Hell, I'm readin' it too. AND passin' the info and sites on.

Keep 'em comin'.

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Ca., usa - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 21:06:50 (ZULU)

I have an H&K SR9 that fires well, but the casings it ejects are a little questionable...in what it does to them. Take a look at the pictures on the links below and you'll see the dents and striations it is making. The rifle has under 200 rounds through it. I wouldn't think that this is normal...esp for an H&K. Do I need to be worried?

http://www.silverstarcabinets.com/hksr9/before-jam-after.jpg

http://www.silverstarcabinets.com/hksr9/dents-striations.jpg

http://www.silverstarcabinets.com/hksr9/dents.jpg

http://www.silverstarcabinets.com/hksr9/ejection-dents-striations.jpg

http://www.silverstarcabinets.com/hksr9/loading-dents.jpg

Aaron
Vancouver, WA, USA - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 22:10:22 (ZULU)

Kevin, then Norm probably did not want to have one of his rifles beat by a GA Precision rifle again. LMAO.. (OK Norm Jr. just messing with you for fun no need to put this on your website and talk about the community its just in fun)

Seriously Kevin, he made a mistake, your credentials will get you in any top school around. You should go visit James Jarrett this summer for his two sniper classes. I am not running the course and have no vested interest in it, except I think the world of James. James is doing most of it on his own, but I said I would help him do some registration stuff so get ahold of me if you are interested. You and Andy would love James and he could teach the war gods a thing or two.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 22:37:10 (ZULU)

Hello to all! First time poster, been lurking off and on for several years. I just got an ARMS #18 mount for my M-1A (Courtesy of Moe Mensale, thanks again Moe!) I have heard from several different sources that there are some tricks to mounting it, and was wondering if anyone here could help me out with this.

Also, I am having a hard time locating the "Grade T primer" and the "Grade B Loctite" Is there a civilian translation to these two items?

Please e-mail me with any info you are willing to share. Thanks in advance.

Brad Holder
Sandy, Utah, USA - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 22:48:04 (ZULU)

CDC

Keep up the good work , i read everyone.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 23:15:44 (ZULU)

Aaron,

Dents and striations are perfectly normal for an HK.....no rotating bolt to break the expanded brass loose from the chamber means you have to have a fluted chamber to float the front of the case on a bit of the gas. The dents can be minimized with HK's ejection port buffer.

But HK's are just rough on brass. You can reload them just fine, though.

I suspect that your jam was due to the round soft-point (may have been too long).....I have never, I say again, NEVER, had a jam in my HK93, or in the 91 that I used to own.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 23:18:44 (ZULU)

Pete,

Open ended offer for ya...I live 1.5hrs from NASA if Florida. If'n you want to take a holiday some time and scout for a job (and do some piggy huntin'-Florida style;) you will be absolutely be able to base from here. Don't even bring a gun, there's plenty here and it's a pain to get a gun into the US right now anyhoo. I'm quite sure that someone in or around Huston can make the same offer for NASA out there! There are a bunch of posters here in Florida, and I'm sure we could have one hell of a party while you're here!

Rob

Robert Martin
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 00:26:50 (ZULU)

Kevin, I don't know about Norm, but I'd be glad to have someone with your experiance in the PR FTX class at Gunsite. It's 5 days and $1100, not 3 days and $775. The description is up on the Web site, but it's not quite up to date. The 3 day class is actually a 5 day class, the first week of Nov. We run 8 full profile missions, including one overnight. The first one was quite a lot of fun!

gunsmithy@gunsite.com

Cory Trapp
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 01:58:11 (ZULU)

Kevin,

You mentioned to Norm that I was a former instructor of yours???

Waiting...

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 02:11:39 (ZULU)

CANCELLED

The 4th Annual US Army International Sniper Competition is CANCELLED for June 2004. Call the Sniper Cell at 706-544-6006/6985 for more information.

===========

Kev, I doubt there's anything they're going to be able to teach you up there at Blackwater. Why don't you come down to Benning for the Peach State (1,000 yard) Regional in May?

sinister
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 02:21:58 (ZULU)

Kevin Mussack -

You are definitely one of the exceptional folks that have their act together. They have had quite a few students come thru at BlackWater whose gear breaks down, etc. They have had to adopt a policy of reviewing the student, his training, gear, etc.

I will definitely vouch for your ability, gear, etc.

Mike Miller -

my friend who I get along and wrestle with - you need to knock off your cheap shots in this public forum.

Both George, Norm, Mr. Rice (and they're probably a few others out there) build some fine rifles. Getting beaten by a particular rifle in the class of those listed - is most likely the quality of the shooter behind the gun.

Mike - please settle your grief with IBA offline. Both of you are my friends - and I wont put up with this nonsense in this public forum.

Take care all, prayers for the troops.

Ken

ken hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 02:41:46 (ZULU)

Aaron; the grooves are normal and are part of the way the system works. The dents are caused by the rear opening and the shell hitting it. HK makes a buffer attachment that stops that problem.

They aren't expensive but I've not seen one around for a while, I don't know where they all went.

Welcome to the world of HK. By the way have you any confirmed kills with the brass hitting the enemy out in front of you? Enjoy your rifle it's fine. You can reload that stuff but the HK system is not designed with shooting that stuff in mind. It may be detremental to the accuracy to shoot those rounds again. (The grooves cause funny stuff to happen since they are already in the brass it causes new ones to form and things get iffy. I'd shoot new stuff or even imported junk if you can find some good stuff. Don't look to India for the solution to imported ammo. The Austrian stuff is fine.

Dan; I read your stuff sweet heart! We all do. KMA by the way.

Brogers
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 02:55:35 (ZULU)

Ordered a bunch of stuff this week for a 700P I bought last year that's been sitting in a box in the closet. IOR bases and rings (from Scott), a Super Sniper 10X42M, and a case of TTI .308 Moly A-Max. IT ALL CAME TODAY! How will I explain to my family about the Resurection? I guess with a CRACK! at the end of each sentence. This will be my project gun one day, but with my luck it will shoot real nice and I'll be afraid to fix it.

CDC, I never miss a link.

You who have taken good classes. We've all seen talented guys shoot from the line pretty well with sub-par POSs. I've seen a few rich guys at my club that can't get their $3500 rigs zeroed.

Now for the beatings. I always suggest to friends that it's better to spend $1000 on a rig and $1000 on real classes that it is to buy a $2500 rig and shoot like shit. Works for your links game as well. A Big Bertha won't help you hit the fairway until you learn how to swing it.

As far as snooty class instructors go, to have an elite class you have to be an elitist. Bring in the biggest names and get good reviews and press and you can charge more than the competition. I don't think Blackwater is looking real hard to get their classes filled. There are some other real good schools that would treat you like a king for a $1000 check.

Check out the Site in Rockford, IL. Hometown Bias on my part.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 03:31:28 (ZULU)

Ken, you and I have and I hope to continue to be friends along time. When a good friend tells you something said was out of line its time to listen. My comments where meant to be funny vut where not.

I appologize to both NormSr and Norm Jr for this. My commenst where out of line and wont be repeated.

The bottom line is Chandler makes a great weapon and I would recommend them to anyone.

Blackwater provides great tarining.

Ken has told me Norm Jr and I both have hard heads and thats why we butt heads. I hope this can be avoided in the future.

Norm Sr and I have talked many times and I honor each hand signed copy of his Death From Afar series. I often have taken his advice and wish I had when it came to a not to be mentioned optics comapany. He has done a great deal for the community.

Norm Jr recently you fixed a studenst of mines High Power, that another comapny had screwed up. You did a fast and great job.

Mike Miller

MikeMiller
CA, - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 05:29:39 (ZULU)

Has anyone tried the Alpec laser boresighter? If you have please let me know what you think about them. I'm thinking about buying one but I would like some info on it before purchasing one.

R.E. Baker
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 06:16:19 (ZULU)

Leatherneck; sorry you were ignored. I've seen the scout configuration on Springfield's scout model. IT works quite well except for night work where I couldn't see a damn thing with mine. (it was on a Savage Scout). I hope your 10X Burris is set up as a scout model as they are parallax corrected at 150 yards instead of 50 like the pistol scopes.

Ken and Mike; I should stay completely away from this one ......... so I ... humbly suggest! There is a fine line between elitism and professional caution. One is justifiable and one is not. I believe the party in question may appear to Norm Chandler to be an accomplished enthusiast due to the extent he has pursued this business and the lack of actual field experience. That's just the way it looks from here and I don't know anyone involved well enough to make judgement. But I've been taken in that capacity more times than not on occasion when the so called pro's were just practicing both caution and elitism. I give the experienced instructor his due but there are those who can walk the walk but have never been on the plank yet. And there are those who have jumped the ship and can't tell about it for reasons of their own so professional caution is the yardstick by which Kevin is being measured or at least we hope so..besides New Mexico is great this time of year. Lucky for everyone there I'm not up to the rigors of the mountains.

Brogers
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 06:26:37 (ZULU)

Gooch;

I didn't drop your name, however I did mention that I had taken training at Storm Mountain. Mr. Chandler was not impressed.

Ken;

Thank you for your confidence.

Dave;

Let me check my schedule. I'd like to come down and "smell the cudzu".

Cory;

If I'm in CONUS this fall I'll be there for the FTX.

As anyone might imagine, such a conversation left me dissappointed to say the least. I attended a one week advanced sniper class at Stone Bay a couple of years back where Mr. Chandler presented me with my graduation certificate. Perhaps he doesn't remember me. I've spoken with Mr.Chandler at each of the last three National SWAT Sniper Symposia that I have attended. I supppose it's possible there is a personal motive here that I am unaware of but I can't think of any reason for one.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 06:35:41 (ZULU)

Hell i sold the Marlin within 90 minutes of posting it on egun.. for exactly the same price as i bought the remington 700 stainless.. i will be sad to see it go though, pig hunting won't be the same without it..

Rob.. thanks for the invite buddy, and i will take you up on it, and the many other invites i have from this wonderfuill web site, just as soon as i get my dire cash situation sorted out ( should never have bought a house, they swallow far too much cash that could be spent on fun things like guns shooting and hunting holidays..) ie, pay off a chunk of the damn mortgage so i can cut the monthly rate down from $2350 to a sensible figure that will leave me some cash for fun, short of winning the lottery i will have to wait for my inheritance,, which i do hope is a long while coming yet. My Dad retired last week aged 75, after a working life spanning 62 years. he can be a cantankerouse old sod, but i wouldn't want to be without him, same goes for the ole gal me Mam.

Has anyone seen this pentax range finder that has a mode in it that will compensate for the up / down hill angle?

Do i need to thin gun kote to be able to spray it with an air brush? and if so is it absolutely nessesary to use the gun kote thinners or can i use some other thinners?

Paul Cockerham, did you send the stock to HS yet cos they claim they aint seen it yet?

Cheers guys and Happy easter,..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 09:54:05 (ZULU)

Keith,

Yeah, I'll be there, but not drinkin the water this year. :)

Kevin,

I got basically the same treatment somewhere else.

All,

Storm Mountain - end of Sept, Check the website or email me.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 11:07:13 (ZULU)

Like I said, Pete-open ended!

Anyone else hear this yet? Hodgdon is buying/has bought IMR. Gee, I really hope they don't change anything. I saw it in the Hodgdon Newsletter this morning.

I heard someone griping on the news last night about how we are still in Iraq and shouldn't be. Someone else said, "hey, we're still in Japan and Germany, but I don't hear you bitching about them." Pretty good point. We've only been in Iraq for a year, we've been inb Germany for 49 or so. I still think we should excuse the press for a bit, take care of buisiness, then invite them back for a walkthru. I'm just about sick of the media. I still think they are our biggest enemy. I know they help deter a bunch of human rights crap from happening (sorry K), but I think the constant presence fetters us a bit. Too many REMF's and poloiticos worried about appearances. These BG's are a cancer. Surgery alone won't save the patient. We need a bit of radical chemotherapy. (Not NBC's, just a bit more aggressive "medicine"). It's gotta suck fighting with one hand tied behind your back. We didn't have as much press in the Balkan's and I think we did okay. A few of us were accused of some bad shit, but at least we got the job done. (Yeah, were still there too, don't hear much about it though)

Rob

PS-CDC'-Keep 'em coming. Really!

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 11:08:37 (ZULU)

Brogers / Bruce N. Robinson,

Thanks for your input and for putting my worries to rest. It would have been a real pain to have the dealer "take care of it" since he's back in Virginia and I'm now in Washington. Besides from the very heavy trigger pull, I think I'm going to really enjoy this rifle.

Thanks again!

AWS

Aaron
Vancouver, WA, USA - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 12:51:20 (ZULU)

Aaron; HK also has a trigger. I've never heard it called anything but "the sniper trigger" and it's expensive $200 plus but anyway it goes to an immediate 2lbs and works as good as any trigger you'll ever use. The creep and hard pull are gone and it installs easily no gunsmithing involved if I remember right it's a plug in component.

Robt; the press needs to be pulled outwarned out of Iraq for their own safety just far enough so they can only see the smoke. This idea or rebuilding Iraq and making them democratic is good to go with me but I know in the real world it will never happen. In Germany and Japan they had to have their asses torn completely loose from their ideal's of world dominance before we could help them. Iraq thinks we don't have the resolve (and half the country doesn't) that's why you need to tear down the walls the first week and let the fires burn till they go out. IF we "could" have killed Sadamn and Osama the first week of these campaigns our chances would have been better and our success would have been rated higher and respected more. The sooner we realize that these Sand Dune countries do no tolerate infidels on their soil as long as they are alive and don't run on Democracy and good feelings the sooner this will be over.

Brogers
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 13:08:44 (ZULU)

Kevin Mussack,

Everyone I know that has met you came away with the same impression. If you leave the door open with the Chandlers, perhaps next time your reputation will precede you and the outcome will be different.

Hope to see you at ASC#3.

medicjim86
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 14:18:57 (ZULU)

Rob, I also read sometime back that Hogdgon had bought IMR powder. The article said that they would not 'mess' with the company/powders. It may have been on Hogdgon's web page...

Sharon

Larry J. porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, U. S. of A!!!! - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 14:24:40 (ZULU)

More on this battle's similarities to the Tet Offensive:

"By objective criteria, the past week has witnessed victories for Coalition forces, and stunning losses for the extreme anti-Coalition factions. But for all the cries of despair, the only real crisis in Iraq is in the subjective eyes of a media unwittingly being used by extremists, and in the jaded eyes of politicos like Senator Kennedy, who are willing to concede American defeat in their quest for Democratic victory."

The insurgents timed the launch of this battle to the Shiite pilgrimage. They want us to kill pilgrims thus uniting the Shiites against us. Their goal is a Kerry victory.

Kerry/Sadr '04.

Click my name and be sure to follow the Mac Owens link.

CDC'
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 14:28:47 (ZULU)

Well, it APPEARS that I'm back.

Thanks due to Ken, my mind needed that little "nudge". Thanks again amigo!

The computer died, fall-out from the flood stuff...... but now it's back, and better than ever. With one glaring exception: I have no e-mail addresses. All the contact info went bye-bye.

Please drop me a line, if you think about it.

Some might have been wondering about how / why I just never seemed to care about whatever. Well, now you know ;-)

IMR / Hodgdon's. Yup! When I called there probably a month ago, the nice lady said "Hodgdon's IMR", to which I said "duh, what?" HA!

CDC, I like the links. I read them all I can, they make a nice counterpoise to cartoon network. Sometimes I think the idiot tube has two channels, and that's one of them. The other isn't any better. That's why I limit the stinking thing so much.

Yote Bait de Patron, yeah, it's a PSG1 trigger. They come in two flavors, small and large (308 / 223). Drop in installation. Except add $100 to your estimate. Pricing not that long ago ranged from $300 to $450, although I was told if I kept my eyes open, one would surface in the $250 to $275 range.

Kevin, it had nothing to do with you personally, he just figured that folks needed more HAIR to get in there LOL! Just poking fun at you. Hey, if you're going to be out in this area (Gunsite), let me know when. Maybe a link-up, dead cow, liquid bread, etc. That goes for the tall kid too, obviously!

Ken, thanks again. But hey, knock off cheap shots? You mean there will be WAY less traffic on the roaster? HA! DOUBLE HA! Does that apply to folks, or things too? I'd hate to knock off my cheap shots of our chosen crunchy black poodle shooter ;-) You had me really concerned until the e-mail hit. Thought I might need to make a road trip! Hey, I won't even poke fun about the harm-a-mite (GRIN)....

So much fun, so little time!

Oh, and before I forget, anyone know where double-wide sized Altamas might be? Seems that desert boots aren't offered like that any longer. Short and wide.....

Bravo
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 14:51:33 (ZULU)

Mike Miller: "Well, frankly James Jarrett always says to me "You sure your a cop and not SF?"

You get that shit too? lol

Okay guys, Snipersonline, Snipershide and AR15.com along with many, many individuals, VFW and Legion posts are currently supporting:

FIVE USMC S/S Platoons - with more to come

A Force Recon Platoon - with more to come

And a Platoon of SEALs - with more to come

Not one word from the United States Army. wtf Sinister?

This thing has gotten bigger than me. My garage looks like an RPG hit a UPS truck.

Every little bit helps if ya ain't already sendin' to the Mildot Master and Maj. Joe. I know many of you have given beyond yourselves already.

Any of you guys with corporate connects ...

Kids are needing body armor/carriers, Surefires, GPS and Aimpoints. High end stuff ...

Thanks from the guys in the sandbox. BK

www.snipersonline.org - Adopt A Sniper Program

brian k. sain
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 15:44:26 (ZULU)

Bravo, if its a size 11.5 wide you need I have an extra pair of Bellvilles. I like these better in desert tan. Let me know the wides are too wide for my feet. You should be proud. George is building me a new M1A. Mike Rock BBL, McMillan Match Stock, Brookfield mount.

If you dont need my size just get ahold of Bellville. These are the best boots for the money I have used.

Brian, yeah I get that. I figured you would also

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
CA, - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 16:25:15 (ZULU)

Undude:

I concur. Bellevilles are on my feet right this minute---summer weight (same as the gortex ones, except they gutted them---which means ya order one size smaller than usual). Hell, for that matter---if you get the gortex ones (last month and for the previous four months---you'd want gortex over here)---then just order a size larger than your usual. I wear size 10 reg jungle boots. I have a pair of 9W summer's on; and the winter-weights are 11R. Both fit perfectly. Just a hint. Some people go a 1/2 size smaller for the summers; I went wide and the full size down. Winter is definitaly plus one.

These are real comfortable boots. A bit hot though. Shit, in June---they all are, so why complain?

Cocoran has just made a pair of Cocoran II look alike desert boots (field jump boot---my favorite class A attire). These in your basic black are actually comfortable and take a helluva spit shine. I imagine the desert version is equally comfortable. But at 100 bucks a pop---I may never know! These ain't in the "system"---AAFES sells them. I see no need to spring for them.

Altamas are to be avoided if you walk alot---the soles rot right off. Never mail order these at any rate---always try them on. I swear, they mark them all 10R, and it is on you to find the pair that actually is a true "10R". And try them both on---you'll want to find a MATCHED pair. Heheh. It is that bad....lowest bidder and a rush order at that. Shoddy QC with these...beware!

Joe M

joe mahon
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 17:05:44 (ZULU)

"The Command Post" is a blog page that combines terse summaries and links. Lately I've posted links to it every day. The reason is that it is the best single source I've found. Today is no exception. (Click my name.) If you hit them every day, most of the stuff I post is pretty much redundant.

For example: Having read a fair amount about Viet Nam, the "Tet" analogy jumped right to my mind. After posting that I looked around the net a little. It was obvious that the same analogy jumped to everybody else's mind too. Same with the "Blackhawk Down" thing.

I'll keep posting this stuff if people read it, but "The Command Post" is vastly better.

CDC'
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 17:12:49 (ZULU)

BKS, Undude:

Nobody ever confused me with a cop.. WTF? I'm jealous. So much so that I went on and married one.

Free ammo and all the donuts I can eat. Life rocks. Still, nobody confuses me with being a cop....in spite of my donut stains.

Is it something I should miss?

Oh, the neurosis!

Youz guys let me know the secret...puhleeeze?

Heheheheheheheheheh. I have heard, "are you sure you ARE SF?????" once or twice though.....does that count? I always tell em I got mine through correspondence (yes, I know that was possible.....but it is fun to say anyway).

Joe "not a cop" M.

Now I'll be up all night wondering if I'm a geek or sumptin....

joe mahon
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 17:16:43 (ZULU)

Hey guys I need some help...

Does anyone know of a factory Remington rifle like the Sendero S/F BUT in .308 or have any inside knowledge if Remington is going to produce the Sendero in .308 in the near future?

If not, would the best and/or least expensive way to go be to buy a Sendero in another caliber and have the barrel switched out or have one built from the ground up?

JoeTex
San Antonio, TX, US - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 18:05:20 (ZULU)

BKS, mail inbound via Duty Roster. No attachments.

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 18:09:37 (ZULU)

Joe tex., that be the Remmy 700 VSSF in 308, they've been making em a while. they retail here in Germany for a whopping $1500 i bet you can get one in the USA for half that. we get ripped of here by the import tax and VAT on anything from the US, i believe you guys do to a certain but lesser extent on anything european.. give you another example, a hogue stock with full alloy bedding block retails here for 386 euros, thats $467.. hell brownells sell em for about $170.. damn thats a mark up aint it.. i'm paying $1.45 for a litre of premuim benzine.. how does that compare? hell am i glad i got my 4x4 converted to LPG. at least i only pay 58 cents a litre for that stuff.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 18:56:48 (ZULU)

Speaking of Fallujah.

Just got this in today. Too good not to pass along.

------------

FALLUJAH DELENDA EST

Behind The Lines

Dr. Jack Wheeler

Friday, April 2, 2004

In the Senate of Ancient Rome, Marcus Porcius Cato – 234-149 BC, subsequently known as Cato the Elder to distinguish him from his great-grandson Cato the Younger – became famous for concluding every single speech he gave, no matter what the subject, with the exhortation: Carthago delenda est. Carthage must be destroyed.

Today, we need Senators and Congressmen to conclude every speech they give with the exhortation: Fallujah delenda est. Fallujah must be destroyed.

I don’t mean metaphorically. I mean for the entire population of the city, every man, woman, and child, given 24 hours to leave and be dispersed in resettlement camps, moved in with relatives in another village, wherever, and the town turned into a ghost town. Then the entire city carpet bombed by B-52s into rubble, the rubble ground into powdered rubble by Abrams tanks, and the powdered rubble sown with salt as the Romans did with Carthage. Fallujah must be physically obliterated from the face of this earth.

It is very easy and justifiable for every American to take the barbaric horror that occurred in Fallujah on March 30 personally. It is even easier for me in particular because the private contractor who provided the convoy guards murdered and butchered by the Fallujahites is a personal friend.

Yet this is a crime that requires far more punishment than simple revenge. Let me state it clearly: the people who committed this crime are sub-human. They have relinquished their claim to be considered members of the human race.

One year ago, Americans saw on their television screens another act of barbarity, the abused bodies of American soldiers taken prisoner in Nasiriyah filled with bullet holes and dumped into a pile. In response, I wrote an essay entitled The Oldest War (TTP, March 25, 2003).

The words of that essay are now ringing in my mind:

“The War in Iraq is a continuation of the World’s Oldest War.

It is a war that began 25 centuries ago, when a few thousand Athenians, representing the founding culture of Western Civilization, faced a Persian horde many times their size on the field of Marathon.

The Persians thought they had a holy right to conquer and rule anyone they wanted to. The Greeks looked upon them as Barbarikos, barbarians who valued neither individual freedom nor the individual as such, who lived instead in an anthill society and were willing to subject themselves to the rule of an almighty dictator.

The Persian dictator, Darius, was sure he would crush these impudent Greeks who dared to demand their freedom from him. At the end of that fateful day in 490 BC, 6,000 Persians lay dead, versus 200 Athenians. Barbarism’s first attempt to subdue civilization was defeated.

There have been many, many attempts ever since. For centuries, the Roman Legions held off vast human wolfpacks, but finally succumbed, resulting in the Dark Ages. Islam has conducted a Jihad against the West for 13 centuries. The barbaric insanities of Marx and Hitler erupted from within Western Civilization in the 20th century. Today the Oldest War continues, now against Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

There could not be a clearer demonstration that the War in Iraq is one between Civilization and Barbarism than the Iraqi behavior we saw on television yesterday. The Oldest War is one that must be continually fought and won anew.”

The people of Iraq as a whole are not barbarians. Yet there is a barbarism in their culture capable of perpetrating sub-human atrocities. Thus the critical conclusion:

If Fallujah is not destroyed now, the genie of barbarism is out of the Iraqi bottle with Iraq disintegrating into a civil war of annihilation.

Turning Fallujah into rubble, smashing its atrocity with a hammer, is the only way to get this genie back in the bottle. Iraq is not a real country, only a collection of tribes who hate each other. If the Sunnis of Fallujah can burn and mutilate Americans, Shias will be only too eager to do the same with Sunnis, Kurds to Turkmen, on and on, once American soldiers are no longer there to prevent them from doing so.

Iraq has been liberated from a monstrous tyranny and handed its freedom on a platinum platter. The question now is: Are the Iraqis capable of keeping the freedom that has been given to them? The atrocity of Fallujah is evidence they are not. The destruction of Fallujah will contain the virus of barbarism and give all Iraq a chance to be inoculated against it.

The power of the Internet enables all of us to be a modern Cato The Elder.

From now on, every pro-American writer and blogger should conclude whatever he writes no matter what the subject, every pro-American private citizen and everyone reading this essay, should conclude any email they send no matter what the topic with:

Fallujah Delenda Est.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 20:36:01 (ZULU)

http://www.unol.org/messages/43646.shtml

Marvelous ! WAF=WTF?

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 21:21:20 (ZULU)

Joe, if you think a guy in the box could use the Bellevilles let me know, they are basically new size 11.5 wide. I will send them to Bruce for the next package. I could incl;ude a half dozen slings if your guys can use them

I think BK and I get it from our attitudes. I have spent too much time training on military bases. Frankly just seemed better than what the colleges/academy/FBI taught us. It left me with the forget the fancy and just get the job done attitude. Certainly not politically correct.

I also hate donuts!

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 22:53:13 (ZULU)

Mk4,

Agreed.

As I said before, cauterize Fallujah......if anyone wants to stay in town for the process, that is their choice.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Friday, April 9, 2004, at 22:57:15 (ZULU)

Has anyone used this new bore cleaner called Hunter's Extreme Copper Melt?? Is it as good as they say it is?? It is kind of expensive and I would like to know if it works.

Jerry

Jerry Rice
Friday, April 9, 2004, at 23:23:09 (ZULU)

Steven,

In reference to the website you posted:

>>>The Republic of Ireland would like to address the General assembly on the following Issue of Disarmament.

We do feel that Disarmament is an important step to Future world peace, but it is not going to happen until countries such as the US and ?Russia get rid of theirs first, therefore countries like Iran, Iraq, N. Korea do not have an excuse to keep their weapos of mass destruction and they will as well begin to disarm. Disarmament does and bring hatred and far to other nations mainly the nations that are to poor to defend themselves any other way.<<<<<

Where do they find these idiots? Just another fool that needs a history lesson. He should set the standard by eliminating his own security detail.

-----

Here in Texas we're going through a re-districting process and the Democratic U.S Rep. who lost his seat as a result was asked why the Demo's are so unpopular these days (in Texas) and his response was, "Gays, God and Guns."

Couldn't have said it better.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 01:39:45 (ZULU)

If Country A liberated me from a despot like Sadaam Hussein, I would welcome Country A's soldiers. If, to prove a point, Country A then leveled, say, Akron, I would kill every one of Country A's soldiers I could find. I expect Iraqis to act the same way toward our Soldiers and Marines if we level one of their cities.

US policy has traditionally been to kill people who fight us and to feed people who don't fight us. That gives people incentive not to fight us. That is what we are doing in Fallujah.

Within a couple of weeks Fallujah's insurgent groups will take too many casualties to sustain significant operations. Sadr's splinter group will take a little while longer.

CDC'
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 01:53:09 (ZULU)

Aljazeera's English homepage.

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

near the bottom of theright hand side bar there is a poll to see if we were right to lead the invasion. Let's all try to swing their own poll around on them:)

Rob

Robert Martin
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 02:31:51 (ZULU)

"I also hate donuts!

Undude/Mike"

YOU DISPICABLE BLASPHEMER ! lol

brian k. sain
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 04:05:44 (ZULU)

Yeah, like we did in Vietnam! Lets win their hearts and minds and they'll love our infidel asses to death, welcome us to their country and beg for Walmart to build on holy ground. I think I see the light!

We've got em right where we want em! Let's decorate Fallujah up good this Christmas and sing a few good old Christian work songs while we rebuild their WMD factories for em. I vote for "Silent Night!" or ...Maybe "Rolling over Jordan" or Santa's cruise is Coming to town. Or Santa Claws's Predator is watchin you! Isn't that were the Wise men came from. Must have been only 3 in the whole damn place and now they run a beer joint in Egypt.

But seriously, My secret plan is to put in Wally World with free Cigarettes and beer in every isle. Just a few years and they couldn't afford their health plan! I wouldn't tell nobody but you guys! but... Nothing wrong over there a pack of Camels a day couldn't fix in 40 years. It'll be longer than that before this is settled. .... I've lived too long do you think?

The Russians would have won in Afganistan if they could only have stayed long enough to get everyone there addicted to Vodka and cheap Russian Cigarettes.

Brogers
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 04:28:53 (ZULU)

More tomorrow, but I did feel this one little bit needed to be said before I went to bed, and possibly forgot it LOL!

CDC, you said "If, to prove a point, Country A then leveled, say, Akron, I would kill every one of Country A's soldiers I could find. I expect Iraqis to act the same way toward our Soldiers and Marines if we level one of their cities."

I agree completely. With one or two noted exceptions. If country A, who liberated me from the despot were to destroy, say, the seat of power of my country (for instance the murder capitol), then I would say "good riddance, hope they didn't blow anything so far that certain buddies got garbage in their yards". It would be obvious they were neutralizing what was left of the despots regime. If there were bastions of opression, and those regions (for instance the PRK) were told "vacate now, we're going to burn this place down", and then it went kabloooey, I'd wonder who was sucking less electricity out of our local utilities. Lift a finger? Hardly.

I don't think they're any more stupid than I am. They know that we're fighting what is left of an ideology and regime. The head is cut off, now we're bleeding out the body. Unless we start doing it on such a scale that things appear flippant or opressive, we're safe.

Or, to put it similarly to you, if Reno went up, I'd be locked, loaded, and mobile. I don't see Reno as giving support voluntarily to the murder capitol, that's the difference.

Therefore, the real question is how the people most likely to squeeze triggers as citizens of Iraq would feel about it. Obviously it's easier for us to theorize than it is to actually ask them! HA!

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.

Now before I forget, since my area wally-worlds don't supply Krylon in APPROPRIATE colors, anyone willing to send me a desert tan set of the extra flat camo spray paints? I'd be more than willing to repay in that woodland camo stuff LOL. I'm thinking it's time to attack some sticks with masking tape, plastic bags, and spray paint.

Bravo
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 05:13:56 (ZULU)

Here is an alert sent by the NRA

The Most Sweeping Gun Ban Ever Introduced in Congress--Clinton Gun Ban "Reenactment" Bans Millions More Guns

H.R. 2038/S. 1431, introduced by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) and Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), does not just "reenact" or "reauthorize" the 1994 Clinton Gun Ban--the federal "assault weapon" law. It bans millions more guns and begins backdoor registration of guns. All told, it`s a giant step closer to the goal stated by Clinton Gun Ban sponsor Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) on CBS 60 Minutes--"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in, I would have done it." There is no 10-year sunset provision in H.R.2038/S.1431. It permanently bans every gun banned by the Clinton ban, and:

Bans every gun made to comply with the Clinton ban.

The Clinton ban dictated the kinds of grips, stocks and attachments new guns can have. Manufacturers and gun owners complied and new guns conform to the Clinton-Feinstein requirements. H.R. 2038/S.1431 bans the new guns too.

Bans guns exempted by name or type under the Clinton ban.

Commonplace Ruger Mini 14s, Mini-30s, Ranch Rifles, .30 Caliber Carbines, and fixed-magazine semi-automatic center-fire rifles.

Bans all semi-automatic shotguns.

Bans Remington, Winchester, Beretta, Benelli, and other shotguns commonly used for hunting, trap, skeet, sporting clays, and self-defense. Bans them by banning their main component, called the "receiver" (sec. 2(a)(30)(J)), and bans them because they have "any characteristic that can function as a grip"(sec. 2(H)(ii) and (b)(42)). Any characteristic.

Bans all detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifles because they have "any characteristic that can function as a grip." (sec.2(a)(30)(D)(iii) and (iv), and (b)(41) and (42)). Any characteristic.

Bans target shooting rifles.

Bans the three centerfire rifles most popular for marksmanship competitions: the Colt AR-15, the Springfield M1A and the M1 "Garand."

Bans guns for self-defense.

Bans any semi-automatic shotgun or rifle an Attorney General one day claims isn`t "sporting," even though the U.S. Constitution, the constitutions of 44 states, and the laws of all 50 states recognize the right to use guns for defense.

Bans 65 named guns (the Clinton law bans 19);

Bans semi-auto fixed-magazine pistols of over 10 rounds capacity;

Bans frames, receivers, and parts used to repair or refurbish guns;

Bans importation of magazines exempted by the Clinton ban;

Bans selling a legally-owned "assault weapon" with a magazine of over 10 rounds capacity.

Bans guns rarely used in crime. A fact proven by every state and local law enforcement agency report, and every DOJ felon survey on the subject. The Congressionally-mandated study of the Clinton ban found that the guns "were never used in more than a fraction of all gun murders."

Begins backdoor registration. Requires manufacturers of guns, frames, receivers, and other parts to report the names of their dealers. Requires dealers to report any of the guns and parts they have in stock. Bans private sales of the guns and parts. The next step is to register individual purchasers.

Double Tap
IN, USA - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 11:18:12 (ZULU)

Bravo, just let me know how many cans you need. Home Dumpo here has the camo colors in krylon as well. Use some Brownell's clear over it and it stays put for most solvents as well.

Got some of the new style woodland camo yesterday. I think I'm going to try to duplicate it on one of my sticks. This should prove a treat. I was thinking of randomly cutting squares out of some graph paper and using that as "flying" templates. Anyone got any other suggestions?

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 11:18:23 (ZULU)

What's the current opinion of IOR's newer 2.5-10x42 Tactical w/the improved MP-8 reticle & rubberized magnification ring? Thx!...

Tom McClimans

Tomac
Caldwell, Idaho, - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 13:09:36 (ZULU)

Brogers, If first you grab them by ( Dem Ballen )

Hearts & Minds will follow !

These folks only understand Violence & Force = Strength.

Compassion & Kindness = Weakness.

How about Dropping Feinstein,Kennedy & Loudmothenburg in their midst!

Ah Hell, Para the rest of the JackAsses from Washington in there too !

Perhaps they could consult with Chemical Allie on what best to do.

Joisey Steve

Arm Chair Strategist from New Joisey ( People Republic of )

No offense intended to JackAsses ie. the animal.

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey ( People republic of ), US of A - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 13:16:57 (ZULU)

Robert, you can save yourself time by just cutting random leaf patterns from a sheet of typing paper using pinking shears (the kind of scissors that leave jagged rather than smooth edges).

If you don't have pinking shears try a cheap hole punch to cut random edges around your leaf pattern. Remember, you're trying to break up straight lines.

Cheap spray paint (Krylon camo colors from Wal-Mart or the PX) works wonders.

sinister
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 14:33:05 (ZULU)

Hi, guys. First post here, long time lurker. I hang out on one of the "other" boards.

My brother is the anesthesiologist with the 31st CSH in Baghdad. He asked me to pass this on, and so I am contacting everyone I can that has contact with line troops in the middle east. I know a lot of you do, or are there.

Here goes:

"Dave,

If you have any contact with the line units out there, PLEASE ask them to

wear their goggles or even sunglasses (some have interchangeable clear

lenses))!! We have had LOT of eye injuries, many of which could have

been prevented by people wearing safety glasses or goggles. Even when in

convoys driving they should be wearing them. I know it sucks to wear

goggles all the time, but I have a Marine going into the operating room

right now with a deep corneal laceration from an IED that easily would

have been prevented if he had been wearing goggles or even clear

wraparound sunglasses (e.g. Oakleys or Wiley Xs). We've seen upwards of

5 globe injuries per day in the past few days. Truly awful.

Another unfortunate example was 3 soldiers detonating explosives found at

the base of a bridge. They wanted to see their handiwork and peered

over. The two not wearing eye protection are both blind in both eyes,

and the third has a peppered face, but a clear area in the shape of his

goggles."

Please do what you can to pass this on. I know that nobody wants to feel like "Mom" but who the hell wants to come home blind?

Semper Fi.

Dave

Dave K
USA - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 15:45:16 (ZULU)

Mark, RE'd your email with one attatchment-clean jpg

Sinister, The "new" woodland to which I was refering is the digital looking stuff. I want to do that. Duracoat has templates but they are expensive-http://64.91.64.210/web/gunpics/large/48Big.jpg-for a pic of it.

Thanx

Rob

Robert Martin
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 16:16:27 (ZULU)

In Malaya, the Brits killed only who they needed to kill. They won handily.

In Algeria, the French used the iron fist. It was ugly and they lost.

In A'stan, the Sovs killed whole villages. That was even uglier and they lost too.

Smart people have studied this. There's a whole literature. A good starting point is, "War in the Shadows: The Guerilla in History" by Robert Asprey. The bibliography is excellent. Many of the authors fought the wars. Some of them led the victorious armies.

One of guerilla warfare's axioms is that the insurgent should provoke his opponent in to commiting acts of indiscriminate brutality. That radicalizes and unifies the target population.

That is guerilla warfare's version of chess's "fool's mate" and is the oldest trick in the book.

But Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz aren't fools, and we aren't falling for the oldest trick in the book. The insurgents in Fallujah will be defeated within a couple of weeks. Sadr's faction will lose shortly therafter.

CDC'
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 16:24:57 (ZULU)

Well today has really SUCKED! Drove to Albuquerque for a Gun Show...about 200 miles one way, got there and....American Rifleman GOOFED and the show isn't until May 1st & 2nd...gee just a BIT of DIFFERENCE! OK so I'll run over and see/meet Art...he took the week-end off and wasn't in the store!

What else is going to go wrong today!!

OUT!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 20:31:30 (ZULU)

Sinister,

I was looking over Wayne's list of shooters for the Regional in May and didn't notice your name. Will you be shooting? Will you or any of your shooters be coming to ORSA for the Regional at the end of the month?

Looking to make hotel reservation in a week or two. Anyone know off the top of their heads, which hotels are closest to the range?

FatBoy...

Chris
Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 21:35:43 (ZULU)

Gents,

I suggest getting a copy of the Brit manual "Counterinsurgency operations in Malaysia". It's still the primer on "how to" and is a good read. Just update the equipment/capabilities and your ready to rock...Believe it was published in 1953 or there abouts.

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 23:10:00 (ZULU)

Undude & INsane, Donuts? Damn down here in South Texas it's cops and tacos. Once a week you might find a dog watch officer in a donut shop, but it aint any where near the norm...

Double Tap, Just another reason to get out there and VOTE. We can not afford one more anti in the House or Senate. Of course I picked up the Army manual on making explosives so if the confiscate my guns I will play with some thing else loud. Hahaha. It's a neat maual. Who knew Pee and dirt could be used in making spolives.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, US of A by God - Saturday, April 10, 2004, at 23:43:47 (ZULU)

Out of curiousity, anyone know why the terrorists have this thing about the 11th of the month? Or is there something in the Islamic/terrorist calendar we should be looking at.

WR Moore
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 01:16:24 (ZULU)

Wes: I'll bet that is pretty good. In "The Savage Wars of Peace", Max Boot recommends the Marine Corps' small wars manual that was published in 1940. (Click my name) I understand that several thousand of them are floating around Iraq.

CDC'
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 01:20:39 (ZULU)

Double Tap "Re ... clinton ban, etc..."

- Sounds like the extremist ban fans are at it again. Hopefully they will commit political suicide.

- They do remind me of these dam horse flies that we put up with every summer.... they keep coming back...

Pablito/Catshooter - Get yo' cowboy action shootin ass back in here and talk long range rifle stuff, etc....

Take care all ---

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Under God - Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 01:56:48 (ZULU)

OVERHEARD AT A STABBING:

Cop: "So she was pissed at ya huh?"

Victim: "Highly ... to the highest level of pisstivity"

brian k. sain
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 03:17:19 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

Have had no luck finding your suggested book. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Dan,

Found Small Wars Manual at www.scholarsbookshelf.com I've had good luck dealing with them for the past several years and their prices are good.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cold and wet Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 04:37:27 (ZULU)

Doc H: The Asprey book I mentioned earlier has a good account of the Brit's operations in Malaya. (Note: Malaya changed its name to Malaysia.) There's some good information - plus some wild stories - concerning that conflict in the book that comes up when you (you guessed it) click my name.

CDC'
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 05:08:34 (ZULU)

Dan,

Thanks. Found book. Ordered same.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cold Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 11:56:12 (ZULU)

Aaron Ford
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 15:04:23 (ZULU)

Cops and food; Most I've known eat donuts for breakfast and tacos and sandwiches because at anytime you may have to give the food a toss and head out. Even firemen eat better. There were restaurants in LA at one time that would feed Motor patrol officers with a table in the back room so that if they had to leave on short notice they could just check out the back door and jump on their bikes. The cook would keep it warm for a while just in case they made it back. You didn't hear this on the 6 o'clock news because it was free of charge and could have been considered a bribe. Bless the boys in blue for they have it nowhere near as easy as it looks.

Brogers
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 15:07:39 (ZULU)

Re: SMTC. Who is Rod using for instructors these days anyway? Did he get his KD range built?

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 15:27:56 (ZULU)

Hey HOGs, just saw what SWFA put on the website. They used some artistic license about me. They put me down as instructors for both the NG Sniper School and the USMC Sniper Schools. That is not correct. I have been a guest instructor for both and a guest instructor is a far cry from a full instructor.

I have emailed them and asked for it to be corrected.

--------------------

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
CA, - Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 16:40:27 (ZULU)

Guys, most of these Soldiers/Sailers/MArines are just like us and read the same magazines.

Before you toss that once read Harley, Hot Rod or Gun Rag, you might consider sending it to me or Bruce (okay Bruce?) in a mailer and we'll get it to the guys.

brian k. sain
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 17:27:04 (ZULU)

Folks,

First, kudos to InSain for his Adopt-a-Sniper program. Support it. I am, to the best of my limited ability.

Second, saw Ben Stein on "Sunday Morning" today. He pronounced the military pay scale as "Shameful", when military families are below the poverty level in many cases.

He proposed that a 5% surcharge be tacked onto the taxes of everyone in the top 1% of the income brackets.......not an additional 5% of their income, just 5% of whatever they owed on their taxes. He noted that he was in this bracket. I must assume that all members of Congress are, too.

By his estimation, this would result in the funds necessary to cut a bonus check for everyone serving in the Armed Forces of $10,000.00.

He also pointed out that the people who would be taxed are benefitting from their sacrifices.

I urge all of you to contact your Representatives and Senators, and support this plan.

The scenes of mothers with three children, whose husband is off to the sandbox, buying stale bread on sale is appalling.

Good for Ben Stein. Now let's see if we can evoke some semblance of conscience within the halls of Congress.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 17:27:48 (ZULU)

So the military pay meme is replicating, huh?

The case is made here. (Click my name.)

CDC'
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 18:16:02 (ZULU)

That article is witheringly refuted then defended by the author here. (Click)

This is a way for the media to help Kerry run to the right of Bush and raise taxes at the same time.

Mo' politics.

CDC'
Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 18:19:08 (ZULU)

Rifle shooting/Buffalo,NY;

Does anyone know of a rifle range in the Buffalo,NY area that is not an expensive club? I was there on vacation this past week and my buddy and I couldn't find a range with 100 yards or longer that we could shoot on. Also, is there anything long rang in the area?

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 19:54:23 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Email inbound with a small prayer atached :) :) (but no files attached...)

Bill

Bill Moore
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 01:49:25 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Email inbound via roster with question from Steve in it. No attachments. Hit me directly with reply.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 02:05:49 (ZULU)

Bruce: One caveat to that plan: Enlisted only get the 10 grand. If any officer complains---give him the boot. You see, we can cure two ills with one pill---we square away our younger force with deserved compenstation, AND we identify the self-serving pricks clogging up the officer ranks. Elegant. I like it...

Joe M.

joe mahon
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 06:15:40 (ZULU)

Jody. Stand on the lake shore and shoot at Canada. Talk about a big, soft backdrop! Yeah, flacid liberal limp-wrists are uneconomical when compared to a good dirt berm....but then, what the hell else would they be good for?

joe mahon
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 06:35:25 (ZULU)

Sorry Bruce you wont get any support for Ben Stein's idea from me. No doubt that the soldiers deserve a 10K across the board pay raise or more but raising taxes is not the way to pay for it.

That 5% surcharge will put people out of work and reduce the rate of recovery for our economy. How about cutting some bullshit programs, pork bills, and fraud, waste and abuse of the tax funds to pay for it?

Why is it that every time there is something that the government needs they come knocking at the door of the top x% earners? These producers of our society are responsible for small business, large businesses, and everything in between. Over tax the producers and you will tax the country into oblivion. When all of these producers continue to be punished for their achievements by paying for the takers they will eventually just stop producing. Ever read Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged? If not do so then rethink your support of that harebrained idea - I know Ben is far from harebrained but that is a truly foolish proposal.

Who is John Galt?

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 07:34:10 (ZULU)

I am sure this has been posted before but ....

How Taxes Work . . .

> This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on -- it does make you think!!

> Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

> The first four men ? the poorest ? would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man ? the richest ? would pay $59.

> That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement ? until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

> "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

> The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six ? the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

> The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

> And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

> But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

> "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

> "That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

> "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

> The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!

> And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

> Where would that leave the rest? Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to grasp this rather straightforward logic!

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 07:38:36 (ZULU)

LTCHIP;

"Who is John Galt?"

Hear here!

A principle of objectivism; "Every man has the right to the fruits of his own labors. To take those fruits from him by means of force or fraud is wrong."

A poor man never gave me a job.

A guy named Marx once wrote something like, "To each according to his needs and from each according to his abilities." I seem to remember his economic/social theories failed the test on several occasions.

Since there are fewer wealthy they represent fewer votes. You see, democracy is like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for supper.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 08:59:14 (ZULU)

LTChip and Kevin Mussack: We're on the same page.

Joe M (or any of you active guys): If you get the time, check out the link (Click my name and search for the phrase, "Headline: Bush's Odd Warfare State.") and tell me what you think of this guy's argument. It's really hard to figure a fair market value of going into combat (if I did it only for the money it would take a LOT) but this guy thinks that our people are doing okay.

All: Any time CBS and "The Progressive" start shedding tears for our troops, I smell a rat. They want to raise taxes, attack Bush in an election year and hurt recruiting. These people don't give a s--- about our troops.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 13:55:18 (ZULU)

BKS, your garage looks like a RPG hit a UPS truck? My guess is that you’re not alone. Several of my packages delivered by UPS appear that the truck took an RPG hit.

Patron Mike, thanks for the offer, but 11.5 wide is about 5 sizes too large LOL! I’ll check out the Bellvilles, I’ve just been getting Altamas since about 91 IIRC, so I was sticking with what I knew. You know. A new ’14 eh? Way cool! That brookie-field should be the cat’s meow, but I don’t want to know who you had to stick up to get it ;-)

Major Santa, on the Altamas, they’re also $100+ for the desert boots. Not much more, I think it was something like $110 or some such. Your comments on the QC of them has me baffled though. Not about the size thing, that’s a FACT in my book. I don’t understand it, but they all feel like 7R’s to me. Again, too big and narrow. The part about them rotting off though, that’s the part I don’t get. I’ve had three pairs total since way back then, and all have been great. The only reason I’m buying more now is because mine were screwed up in the flood, and the insurance is paying (HEHEHEHE!) for replacement. I hate to think about the miles I’ve put on them, it would make my knees ache. I wonder if the QC stuff isn’t “recent” and due to the spool up for you guys over there.

MK4, HA! I like it: "Gays, God and Guns." I’ve had the same “talk” with my congressman. Got a nice reply back this last time, he might have “gotten the message”. Still, it’s actions that matter, not words. We’ll see.

Rob, might have to take you up on that. I checked my “local” home dumpo, and it was a no-go. No Krylon at all. I’ll drop you a line this evening, after I get home, on the roster mail. Just the desert colors... I have no need for black!

And thinking of Brownells, has anyone got the freeby catalog from the SHOT show yet? I haven’t, and I’d like one! I did get the scanned badge thing though...

Joisey Steve, re: Para the rest of the JackAsses from Washington in there too ! As Jimmy Buffet would say “that takes care of two problems right there!”. I’m for it, assuming that the military could contain their feelings on the matter and actually give them chutes. Nah, nevermind. Does this fall into the category of dumping pork on them too?

Howdy Patron Dave! Good to see you back again. Just one question... what’s a “leaf”? HA! I’ll remember that.

CDC, excellent point. And while I’m thinking of it, shoot me your physical again, I lost that when the contact info went bye-bye.

Dirty Steve, wasn’t it a Texas police department that got “embarassed” for making doughnut runs with the department slick? Uh, two dozen custard filled, going up in the giant fan ;-)

Bruce, my friend, I’ll try it, but I have serious doubts as to the effect it will have. “Halls of congress” and “conscience” are two words very seldomly heard in the same sentence in a positive way. Very often as “do the halls of congress have no conscience?” I hear that a lot.

LT Chip, Very well done! Objectivist epistemology is one of my greatest hits. And Rand is my favorite, even topping Nietzche. Who is John Galt? Well, for starters, that was the name of my cat. I found it a good conversation starter when someone would ask me (wondering at the name) “who is John Galt?”. HA!

Did I miss anything? (GRIN) Oh yeah, try “Capitalism: the unknown ideal”. Good stuff.

Bravo
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 15:36:13 (ZULU)

Re: Taxes

Don't misunderstand me. I am all for getting the government out of my wallet, and I am DEFINITELY not a "Share The Wealth" proponent.

But I am damn sure a fan of Ben Stein and his conservative and fiscally responsible philosophies.

My support of his proposal was prompted by the fact that I get funds and goods to ship to Joe from people who are struggling to make house payments (or buy a new rifle!), but not from the captains of industry and politicians.

We are at war. Our troops deserve better pay. Stein proposed this plan to help them, and included himself. When you look at the real estate holdings of John Kerry and other politicians and realize that they are being protected by our troops who are in some cases making less than their butlers, I say something is wrong.

I stand by my support of this idea. But I would amend it to include MAJ Mahon's suggestion to limit it to enlisted only.

Maybe a better solution would be to just go to a flat 10% tax and put the tax lawyers and half the IRS out of business, but that has the same chances of happening as me getting elected Pope.

And, yes, I have read "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead". No poor man ever gave me a job, either. But I'm damned tired of our folks in the sandbox and elsewhere needing socks and Chapstick while politicians go back and forth between their $7 mil. Georgetown home and their $10 mil. summer place on Nantucket, and then want to raise MY taxes. And pay me in 120 days when they contract for 30!

Sorry about the rant, guys, but IMHO, the "elite" are not pulling their weight as regards our troops.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 15:48:31 (ZULU)

Ancient chinese proverbs,

Virginity like bubble, one prick, all gone.

Man who run in front of car get tired.

Man who run behind car get exhausted.

Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day.

Foolish man give wife grand piano, wise man give wife upright organ.

Man who walk through airport turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.

Man with one chopstick go hungry.

Man who eat many prunes get good run for money.

Baseball is wrong: man with four balls cannot walk.

Panties not best thing on earth but next to best thing on earth!

War does not determine who is right, war determine who is left.

Wife who put husband in doghouse soon find him in cat house.

Man who fight with wife all day get no piece at night.

It take many nails to build crib, but one screw to fill it.

Man who drive like hell, bound to get there

Man who stand on toilet is high on pot.

Man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement.

Man who fish in other man's well often catch crabs.

Crowded elevator smell different to midget.

Man who has sex with woman in field get piece on earth

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:11:00 (ZULU)

"the "elite" are not pulling their weight as regards our troops"

First of all using the term "elite" invokes exactly the type of class envy the socialists use anytime they get a hankering to raise taxes. Again, it does not matter that Stein was the one proposing it, I am well aware of his politics, but in this case he is dead wrong.

Second, could not agree more that the troops deserve to be provisioned and paid better than they are.

Third, take a look at what the government spends on less worthy things and petition to pay the troops by reducing spending in these areas. You could pay every Joe a 6 figure combat bonus and still not be done cutting the immoral pork spending.

www.CAGW.org is a good place to start. Hell, the farm-subsidy bill alone costs us $190,000,000,000 over 10 years. Cut that, by say, 20% and if we have 250,000 troops in combat then that is enough to give each of them $15,000 extra per year. There, I just solved the problem by looking at one single socialist program.

Then when you are done with that, you can start on the fraud and abuses of tax payer money.

In the end, we would have a properly compensated military, a balanced budget, healthier economy and lower taxes for all.

Sorry but raising taxes is never the answer when we are at the state we are now.

You imply that these evil top x%ers are not pulling their weight well when you are in the top tax bracket and in a state like CA or NY looking at your total tax liability (income, state, local, property, sales, and use) you are in the 60%+ tax bracket. That means that more than half of what they produce goes to the takers.

These taxes are taken through the threat of violence and imprisonment. We live in oppression in this regard. So, again, pay the troops more? Yes. But not by pointing a gun at Americans and robbing them further of their property.

LTChip

Edited for spelling and arithmatic

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:24:59 (ZULU)

Last week I said that Kennedy and Byrd are carrying water for this country's enemies. Jonah Goldburg says it better. Click my name.

Bruce Robinson: I'm not trying to be tedious, but I'm not convinced that our troops are underpaid. Let's let the active guys look at the link I posted earlier. I'd be more concerned with the claims that Marines in Fajullah were only getting a quart of water a day and are short of ammo.

Support our troops. Give 'em plenty of ammo.

Again, not to be contentious, but any tax that reduces the marginal incentive is not consistent with Conservative economic theory. We can take care of the troops without forcing a lot of small businesspeople to fire employees.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:33:18 (ZULU)

Fallujah rebels disapprove of Marine Snipers. Click my name.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:11:17 (ZULU)

One last salvo and I'm gonna drop it........

I've lived in CA (4 yrs.) and NY (7 yrs., plus commuted to NJ and was privileged to pay taxes in BOTH states, plus NM where I had some financial interests!) so I am well aware of total tax liability.

But I don't think that the plan that I referenced would result in small businesses laying off employees. I'm more inclined to think that it would impact large corporations, who would simply find another write-off to counterbalance the 5%. Or maybe cut out some of the Enron-style shenanigans that left hundreds of families with their life savings vaporized.

I'm as 'bout a small business as they come...the only way I get service from my government is the same way a heifer gets serviced by a bull.

I guess the reason I get so worked up about this is I hear from Joe about the basics that are needed over there. I solicit and receive donations that range from $10.00 to $1,000.00 from common folks who constantly say, "I wish it could be more." I would love to see a huge check come in from the politicians earning six figures, but it ain't happening.

Am I cynical? Do I think that there is a class division in this country? You betcha! When Diane Feinstein has a concealed carry permit for her .38 and no other Californians can do so, there is a class division.

End of rant. End of my comments on this subject. Y'all know how I feel about it, and ain't nobody gonna change my mind.

Still need some more money for Goodies for the Grunts, so pony up and make this old reprobate and his Child Bride happy! We still pay the freight, without help from Bill Gates........

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:17:55 (ZULU)

I am with Bruce on this. Our troops are way under paid. CDC/Dan, the salary the troops get may not sound bad in parts of the country but out here they are lucky to eat Burger King. In my neck of the woods the average crappy house costs over 600,000 and that my friend is in a former Ghetto! Former because guys like me have bought there because the good neighborhoods all cost over 1,000,000 now. UNless you want to communte three hours a day and then the normal homes are 500,000. I mean normal not great. Ask Mike S. what he just paid. Now I make fair money but without Lorraines great income as a Specials Nurse I would be stuck in a trailer. Thats with my income as a Police Sergeant and the side business. Now the dog faces I know would love to have my income as they cant afford a trailer around here.

By the way when I retire I am going to a land of house that cost under 200,000.

When we debate our troops pay, I like to look at it this way. How much do they pay me to be fairly safe here with the love of my family? How much would I want to be in Iraq, without my families love and with every damm fool wanting to kill me? With all the locals playing all sides againts the middle.

Man I say bend over and kiss the ground you are standing on. Then send all you can to help these poor guys and gals.

Thank God for the Heros we call Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen.

By the way Bruce just donated a bunch of Mildot Masters to soem troops about to deploy. Ken Hunter is getting some stuff together to send over and my offer to train with anyone about top go, for free still stands. Bruce, the Guys at Camp Roberts love you.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:57:57 (ZULU)

CDC, I liked the Goldberg piece. At first, I thought his credibility questionable, since he used two words in the same sentence that hardly ANYONE could get away with.... "kennedy" and "sober". He pulled it off though. The Orwell part was gravy.

Bruce, my friend, I understand what's being said. On both sides. Raising taxes on a portion of taxpayers is essentially the same as raising the minimum wage. Either way, companies (especially small companies) have the the option of less profits or less low-end workers. You know which gets axed first. And while I agree a flat tax is a BETTER way of going, it's certainly not "fair". A "FAIR" tax is derived by a long and difficult to understand equation: Annual budget / number of tax paying citizens = how much you need to write out a check for once a year. Even this is a bit "socialist", but a very small bit. Note, there's absolutely nothing included about a "withholding". Everyone should pay by check or cash the exact amount on the date specified. The larger the amount, the higher the shock value; the higher the shock value, the shorter incumbent politician terms get. I doubt that anyone will argue that the Individuals Representing Satan take what they do by coersion, force, or intimidation. By the way, I really like Ben Stein too, have for many years.

Might also want to check out one by Martin Gardner, the why's of a philisophical scrivener

Bravo
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:19:16 (ZULU)

Edited to remove reply to old post -

Clay Goret
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:24:04 (ZULU)

To Lt Chip

I would love life if you could do away with the farm subsidy. I would then be getting about $2500 to $3000 a head for my cattle and about $10.00 a bushel for my wheat or more. And you could now pay $5.00 a loaf for bread and about $25.00 to $30.00 a pound for steak. Please don't curse farmers with your mouth full.

Rex

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:27:09 (ZULU)

Mike M: In '88 one of my brothers was stationed near where you are. His E-6 housing allowance put him in a perfectly adequate condo. Newish, two stories, three bed, two baths, dining room, two car garage, patio, etc. His friends' places were similar. They were all E-6 and E-7. Good bunch of guys. Smart.

If - in some markets - housing allowances aren't keeping up, let's raise them.

I'd like to get some feedback from the active guys.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 19:07:38 (ZULU)

Rex's comment hits the nail square. Subsidies come out of the same pocket we pay other taxes & product costs out of. The beef price is exact on example. Unfortunately, as others mentioned, we like low product prices but are many times unwittingly paying for them in other ways. Screwed up system. Still the best there is. Been in a small family business before getting into LE, worked much harder then, no doubt about it. Why I appreciate things all the more now. Donations to the troops not tax deductible, oh well, not the reason I makes em. The fine men & women need our encouragement & support.

John Galt, heh heh, married a gal just like Dagney Taggart. Hooah!!

Carry on gentlemen, the course is noble and just.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 19:50:44 (ZULU)

I'm trying to find a site which lists the records for distance shooting. (ie: 308 at 100M .xx group, 308 500M x.xx group, 50cal 2000m xx.xx group, etc) I've about googled this to death and haven't come up with anything useful. Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Semper Fi

Lt Jarr
Miramar, CA, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 20:32:36 (ZULU)

Aww Rex,

First of all, take this as you will, but I am a farmkid, grew up in farming, and lived around farmers and ranchers long enough to know better..

Come on now, farmers ain't never happy, always cryin' in their beer..If it ain't rainin, it's too dry to grow a crop, if it's raining it's too bloody wet...But I haven't seen too many NOT driving new Dodge pickups every other year regardless of what they grow, been a long time since I seen a poor farmer..

Subsidisation is a false market, it's a helping hand, and should be used as such..If we grew what we needed and not what the insurance will cover, we'd be a lot better off..Simple supply and demand economics..We are subsidising over production, and have been doing so as long as I have been alive..That's not healthy, we almost waste more than we use...One thing that has helped is the subsidisation of corn alcohol for fuels, to get the market started..Now that ethanol enriched fuels has taken off, at least back home, we should let the market rule..But the farmers aren't keen to letting the cash cow go, because then hell, they'd have to survive just like the rest of us in business..Problem is they are wasting so much time and effort on gathering subsidies which could be used on the commodities market, which is HUGE, is a relatively real market, and they do make money on both..You tell us we'll be paying 25-30 for a steak if we let subsidies go, bullshit..we are paying too much for the goods now because of over-subsidisation and bloody crop insurance, too many middlemen...How many farmers you know grow a crop in the hope that they will be wiped out, so insurance will cover the expense, they can call a loss, AND the government can help them out as well...More than you would like to admit I bet..Well that's not right..it's not fair..and it's not real..

Tell me not to curse farmers with my mouth full, well kiss my ass, when a business can be run into the ground on the backs of the taxpayer and you still come out ahead, it ain't right...Money for nothing and the chicks for free..

Seen it all too often, the poor farmer in the pub cryin in his beer...

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 21:21:14 (ZULU)

Flash, its not 1988 and house prices are about five/seven times what they where here then. Give you an example a home that sold in 1994 for 120,000 just sold for 700,000 with not more than 20,000 worth of work being done. I know I lost in the bid war and saw what the owner had paid when purchased. Condos in SF go over one million. Homes there are all about 1.5million. Its crazy in California and guess what thats where a whole bunch of Marines are stationed.

All I am attempting to say is the troops need a good raise. We ask so much of them now and pay them squat. We all eat better than the guys protecting us.

As to wanting to hear from teh active guys, most of them are eating crap in Iraq or Afghanistan and wondering if they will make it back while we sit confortably on our asses debating if they get paid enough. Tell you what though, this week end I am on my way to teach a sniper class. I will ask the guys if they eat much steak while I am there.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 22:21:24 (ZULU)

"Ask and ye shall receive."

Fund was down into the red. Then today I get a box from an old pal from the days when I had a real job. The accompanying note had a $200.00 check clipped to it. We're back up to $197.20, and the box has a bunch of neat automotive tools that the motor pools will like.

Then got a call from Art. His printer has about finished the big poster for his shop.......he has his promotion for "Buy One For Yourself and One For the Troops" on it, and is posting Joe's wish list of other items that the troops need. He will act as a collection point.

God bless the common man. Sometimes, they're as uncommon as common sense, but I and CB seem to keep on running into them.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 22:50:54 (ZULU)

Forgot to add:

Also in the box from my pal was a signed, hard-cover first edition of "The Diesel Odyssey of Clessie Cummins" by his son, Lyle.

For me, that was like Christmas.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:04:02 (ZULU)

I previously posted about a "pawn shop rifle" - allegedly "Vietnam era" US Military, a Remington 700, pakerized, 7.62 24" barrel, stamped "U.S." above the serial number, with an olive green Redfield scope, Burris-type mounts, oiled wooden stock, no checkering. Several people replied via private e-mail, and indicated they could confirm the authenticity with SN information.

The SN is 3227XX. It looks interesting. I do not know if it is authentic, but the work was good.

Thanks.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:27:17 (ZULU)

There are very few things our government could propose that I would deem acceptable for a tax raise, but increased income for soldiers is certainly one of them. I even think our Congressional and Executive elected employees need a substantial raise, but for different reasons.

As for Off-Base housing and ownership. My buddy Tim is a Major. He makes a respectable living in the Army, but where he's doing well is in real estate. Tim buys condos wherever he's stationed with his family. When he gets a new gig, about every two years, he simply buys a new place near his new base and rents the old ones out.

He's got one near Fort Carson, one near Fort Leonard Wood, one near Ft. Bragg, one near Washington D.C. somewhere (I wasn't allowed to know where he was then) and one in Bloomington, IN while he was a foreign language school. There are those guys that buy with there money, and those guys that rent for the same amount.

As for enlisted men, they need better family housing. I'd live with a tax increase for it, the problem is subsidized housing tends to turn into slums no matter who's in it. Then it becomes a problem.

I'd like to see the raise if for nothing else than to help retain some troops for longer ups. I'd like for our political offices to attract more qualified candidates. That's why I'd like to give politicians a raise.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:53:50 (ZULU)

My take on military pay:

We pay them with public monies from the public fund then tax them to put it back into public fund. How stupid is that?

If we really want to give the military a raise, try not taxing them at all. No income tax. Just fill out a military tax form, such as naming it the 1040-M, that says, "I'm me, here's my social, and I am in the Army, stationed at so-and-so post, hold the rank of...." Simple. Of course, simple and the federal government are oil and water.

Hank
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 02:58:52 (ZULU)

Instead of taxing income, savings and investments how would it work to only tax consumption. National sales tax, money goes straight to the treasurey, no need for IRS or filing taxes. Sliding scale, common items none or low rate, fancier the expenditure the higher the rate. Corporations pay also.I like the idea that military pays no tax, makes sense. What do you all think?

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 03:49:30 (ZULU)

Fred,thats called a "goods and services tax" or GST here in Aus and a "v.a.t,value added tax" in other countries, and here, it sux.We were told the income tax would be lowered, it wasnt,we were told the "indirect taxes" would be done away with or lowered, they werent.The point is the gubmint cant be trusted to do the right thing with the systems in place now, they cant be trusted to bring in a newer fairer system.We see huge corporations paying next to nothing and folk just above the breadline paying 25% income tax and around another 40% indirect tax on fuel,food,clothing etc.

I tend to think J.R aint to far from the mark on his asessment of ag subsidies.good for the getter but bad in the big picture,especially for the "trading partners".

On a happier note,Dad and my boys,12 and 8, and I went deer huntin on the weekend,found some, but couldnt get a decent shot, so we gotta try again :) During the zeroing phase, Mr12 had a shot of the 6.5 swede,first time,nailed a fist sized rock at 110 metres.A Dad and Grandfather grinnin like fools all the way back to the house.life is good.

later lads

G.W

Gavan Willis
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 04:50:07 (ZULU)

Hank & Fred,

Both ideas sound good to me. For Military you pay no taxes on anything you purchase. Just show your Military I.D. card.

Nah..., probably too simple.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 04:52:01 (ZULU)

I'm looking for a smith to do some work on my Kimber single stack 1911. If any of you guys have one you like please let me know.

I learned a valuable lesson this weekend. I was trying to call in some coyotes the way Bill explained it to me. Tried three or four spots on the ranch Saturday morning with no luck but that's not the point. I guess I need to pay closer attention when setting up my hide and pulling brush and branches around myself. I've never gotten poison oak before so I thought I was immune to it but I must have found some. My hands look like I have a disease of some kind. I want to scratch them with a wire brush and soak them in clorox. But that's not the worst of it. It was a hot day...I was drinking lots of water...Yeah...That's right...I got it there too! I told her about Brian's advice of "soaking it in cider" but it didn't go over too well. Man this is misery.

Marc S
CV, CA, - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 05:15:35 (ZULU)

Well i don't know about US troops bieng under paid, but the British troops certainly are underpaid in comparison to thier civilian counter parts. Soldiers living overseas with thier families recieve a living overseas allowance, this is to help off set stuff like large telephone bills to keep in touch with family, extra expense of travel to go back home for visists, and shit like that. If a soldier then deploys to NI Iraq or whereever they then loose the biggest part of this LOA, meaning that they are loosing money to go into harms way, sure they get separation allowance and in some cases "dangerouse activities pay" but it never covers the gap in the LOA. Troops stationed in the UK don't get the LOA obviously, but they are on lower pay anyway and don't have the tax free shopping benefits and tax free fuel like the guy abroad do.I always wondered why the hell we had to pay income tax, like paying part of your own damn wages to me. Hell i remember when i was stationed in Colchester, the Gov't demanded Poll Tax ( for emptying trash cans, keeping paths and roads cleen, providing a fire service/policeservice etc) damn, we cleaned our own camp, had a garrison military fire brigade and a regimental MP, but the Govt wanted me, living in a 6ft x6ft space in a room designed for 8 but with 9 occupants to pay the same damn poll tax as the civie down the road in his semi detached mansion, screw that i thought and didn't pay, luckily i got posted to Germany just before they took about 75% of 19 Inf Bde to court for non payment, there after the tax was removed at source from your pay.

Bieng a soldier in the UK sucks as far as pay goes when you consider what they have to do to earn thier money. same goes for the Police, Nurses, Firemen any one who does a shitty job, that realy serve the public, not like these damn politician pen pushers, seems to get the thin end of the wedge.

JR, that farmers new landrover in the UK usualy belongs the bank, the EEC screwed farming in the UK, and cheap imported produce has been screwing it ever since, sure they get paid to grow nothing in the set aside programme, and get subsidies, but Gov't policy makes many farmers part time redundant, the whole situation is a mess and thereare too many fiddles in the food chaín that lead to making extra money at the expense of quality and ultimately our health.. rather than subsidise farmers to grow nothing it would be better to have them grow to capacity,stop all imports of stuff we can grow our selves, subsidise the price in the shops to make the produce affordable to you and me and then ship of any excess to places that need food in return for them behaving thier selves and not bieng anti western..

Much needs sorting out. Soldiers Cops and Nurses need paying more right now. and hell so do i.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 06:29:11 (ZULU)

Bravo: The Altama's soles are the achilles' heal. Ha. I'd bet they were tested at Aberdeen or Natick (maybe both)--rocky loam or sandy clay in a temperate climate. All was well---they held up fine, and so they should for you in a similar environment. Now, here in the heat we have a different issue. The soles just melt right off these things---they chunk away, heels fall off, basically rot the rubber all to hell. They go away fast--surprisingly fast; and the Bellevilles do not have this problem at all. In the 'Stan, the altama boot separates along the lower edges of the suede and the soles; due to jagged roch-wear. Now, having been to the Big Island; I do not know of any boot that stands up to that kind of abuse. I walked out of new jungle boots inside of 30 days---while jungles manage other places just fine. So, the rocky-abrasion-hell is a wash for all boot designs. That leaves the desert as this design's weakness. Considering this is a desert boot---you'd think the rubber compound would be a bit more resistant to sandy-HOT abuse. Other compounds seem to do better...and that to me is just freakin' absurd! I say dye them all dark brown and issue them in lieu of black boots stateside; where they seem to hold up fine! Then, buy these Bellevilles for general issue for the desert. I heard it said the bellevilles cost twice as much. I've seen soldiers go through three and four pair of Altamas (routinely for grunts, almost as many for everyone else) in less than a year. You do the math. Heheh.

On the Mags: Dudes, Easy Rider is a violation of GO 1A; it has resulted in numerous FG Grade AR-15s and more than a few summary courts. If there is any nudity---don't send the mag into the CENTCOM AOR. They treat it just like an alcohol infraction. BTW---some of the reservists and a few active guys "dried out" over here---some painfully. With any luck, a good thing may come from this silly rule. I believe in tightly controlled consumption where appropriate ( rear base camps, refit, r&r etc---not on the lines of course). Some tell me "you can't control it (drinking), so why even try...?" To which I reply: "You are absolutely right...let's get rid of all CAT 1A explosives since we cannot control them and they are sooooo dangerous." I appreciated the candor from my NCOs that two beers brought to a briefing held after duty hours. And, after being keyed up for a month or two---I appreciated the same two beers' relaxing effects that made sleep all the easier in spite of the tensions of the recent past. Others have differing opinions. But, with discipline, we had beer taps in our mess halls and beer machines in our day rooms for years---never once saw anyone buy one or pull one before top said "OK" in the light infantry units. Ha. The cav, well maybe those guys ought not be allowed alcohol under any circumstances. Lack of discipline = abuses (in mech inf., not cav---cav was just plum nutzo). Solution? Nuke the commander if he let's drinking get outta hand. A bit o' rant eh? Much ado bout nuthin too.

LT Chip: I am with you 100%. A central government does one thing well: Common Defense. The rest, well it is watered down at that level by special interests---so it is less than effecient. Education for example. Best left to the county with the state maybe "leveling the playing field" with subsidies for poorer counties. But, all decisions on curriculumn and content---make it at the level where we can reach out and touch them. Accountability comes fast on a first name basis....and the feds' anonymity is the cover for fraud waste and abuse. Power down, folks. Get the important small shit in the hands of the local voter and keep washington out of our back yards. Hear-hear. Leave the big shit, like standing armies---in washington though. They handle that pretty good.

As for taxes---well, I am all for the flat tax. To each according to the sense of ownership through a stake. No more freeloaders! The evil rich will pay more just because "10% of more" is more than "10% of less." Besides, who do want paying your salary? A guy who has 5 grand to spare each year, or a dude with 50 grand extra? Now, we pick the 50 grand....and then along comes the government and levies a tax....on us poor 50-grand earners---because that dude paying us ain't gonna take a pay cut....is he? We will....Like taxing corporations---do you think that tax doesn't show up on the price of goods? Yeah, right.

My god....we are basically a bunch of freakin idiots in this country.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 11:24:55 (ZULU)

CDC,

Living on base is not as easy as you'd think. At FTCKY there is at least a 13 month waiting list. Apartments run about $600 a month. BAH for an E4 or lower used to be $395 with a $15 VHA. That leaves an E-4, who makes about $1300 a month after taxes, to use more than half their income to live off base while they wait for housing.

Did we starve. Most of us didn't. But it was a miserable exsistance, always waiting for some bill to go unpaid and have the commander called.

My youngest brother got back from Iraq yesterday. He's starting to get on his feet with E5 pay. He's going to HI in march to a new unit, and I think the shock of what stuff costs there is going to suprize him.

He waorked along side contractors who make $15,000 a month tax free. One of his guys got out and was back as a contractor 2 months later. $125,000 a year tax free for the same job.

COLA helps, but you only get a good COLA OCONUS unless you're someplace like D.C.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but of all I've read I like the idea of soldiers paying no taxes, on anything the best so far. For that matter let's take the tax off Social Security again. Probably never happen,, to many Senetors $100,000 a month retirement funds and lifetime health care to fund.

FatBoy...

Chris
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 11:43:50 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt - Well yes I would love to move over if I could get a reasonable Job Texas sounds a great place. But my partner has kids here and she doesn’t want to move, what we have to put up with.

JR – Welcome to the UK beaurocracy and as for letter telling them your not a psychopath, your in the UK if you want to own a weapon you must be one. (sorry police logic)

Dry
UK - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 12:16:42 (ZULU)

Farm subsidies...Frankly, I am suspicious of these. I would push for them with all my strength---if they were going where they were originally intended---the single-owner/operator; or the family farm. The agri-corps seem to be getting some of this---and that is bothersome on the face of it. Hit me offline if my brush on the topic is screwed up---I really haven't dugg into it (yet--I have land now).

Steve: got the box....it is exactly the one that I used in ranger school and the Q...damned fine tool.

Larry P: Hit me offline with your mailing addy. The tees have arrived. You get a free HD hat too; they were on sale. I got two of everything; I liked them myself. Heheh.

Bruce: I have to go rescue the NM Flag out at Camp VA---I dropped it off two days ago to be flown there. Once I do, I have a nice collection of "stuff" for ya. People have been tossing me trinkets (coins, patches, etc) for you. Soon, it will go out soon. So long as I can get away from this dang desk....

Dudes, The Housing allowance is set by grade, by market. In some areas (Fayetteville, NC for example) where the military is the only game in town---raising BAH precedes a raise in rent by only hours.

In other areas, a better solution is to close the damned base. If you have to pay a kid more in BAH than he makes in base pay just to get a trailer---close the base and expand FT Rucker, AL---where 300 bucks gets ya a 3 bedroom ranch with a pool. It makes no sense to quarter troops in DC or CA, NY or Mass; except the politicians who would rather screw the entire country (costs) to save a few hundred jobs and his ass. Inefficient basing is killing us. You want to know why it took so freakin' long to buy enough body armor? Because all our money is dumping into FT Lewis and other high cost areas.

Ooops. a rant. I, uh, let it get away...

Joe M

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 12:46:47 (ZULU)

Mil pay.

It aint all the dudeds in the mil that are underpaid. Its the junior enlisted that get the shitty deal. Check out the pay scale if you can find one. Most of the officer ranks are well paid. But the juniors have a real problem when you have to decide whether to buy a new uniform shirt for an inspection or feed your family this week.

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 13:18:37 (ZULU)

Dudes, I like this thread today. Troopers need more dough, that's fer sure. been there, done that. But honestly---I do not need "more" and if I want more---I'll go out and earn it by stepping up a grade. I make plenty (but don't cut it none---the wife would flip out). But that is me....the soldier's do not have the financial horsepower to say that. The next BRAC needs to look at this issue hard; COLA areas may not be a great place to billet soldiers. But bases are cash-cows; nobody in office will give one up willingly. It'll be a pie-fight. Next, step up lower-enlisted pay by 10%, or kill tax burdens on the first 25K of salary. Then, kick pay way up at the E5 level---make that a huge pay raise (incentive) for the additional challenge of leadership. 50% to 100% more than E4s, then step up 10% through the ranks, 10% through the years. As for officers, give LTs and CPTs a modest boost, and let the "first 25K tax-exclusion" give a little bit for all.

BTW--The tax exclusion idea will be on everyone's mind when the troops come home to the pay cuts. I just hope that they haven't budgeted the extra pays---ya know, bought a car they can't afford or got in too deep on a house....it could get ugly. These kids will lose a grand a month in most cases once they leave here.

Talkative today...

Joe M

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 13:20:13 (ZULU)

JR,

If farming is sooo good, why are you not farming?

Rex.

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 14:14:02 (ZULU)

Boys,

This thread concerning how to increase pay to our troops has morphed into an arena about which I have quite a bit of experience. I have to let you all in on a little secret. An income tax increase is not the solution. You see, here in the good ole US, every penny of personal income tax money collected by the government goes straight into paying a part of the interest on the national debt. They theorize that our income tax money pays less than 4% of the interest on the national debt. Not one penny goes toward ANYTHING else. Now the national debt is so complicated that one can only theorize on what it actually is. No one could estimate within a trillion dollars what it is because it changes by billions of dollars everyday. (Sidenote: A very obscure law in the US Code makes it a crime for a citizen of the US to question the national debt.) So no matter how much they decide to raise income taxes, none of that increase will go toward pay increases for anyone, anywhere. A tax increase only serves to reduce everyone's pay because the government produces NOTHING. This is a very important concept to understand. We are paying them to take money from someone who earned it and give it to someone who didn't. As harsh as that sounds, it is the truth. The only thing a tax increase does, is give the federal government more control over your economic life. Why do you think the Income tax laws change so much every year? A Thousand of pages of tax law changes every year. They reduce one deduction and raise another. What does this accomplish? It keeps a certain number of taxpayers within certain parameters. This is called social and economic engineering. It is the only reason for the existence of the income tax. It allows corrupt politicians to retain control of the people through fear and intimidation. They are already so far outside of their Constitutionally limited powers that we are walking the line of being a Socialist state like every other country in the world(read the Patriot Act). Here is a question for you to ponder. If our tax money goes only to pay a very small part of a debt that no one can figure out and we are not allowed to question, then is it really necessary? After all, any other time the federal government needs money, they just print it.

Matt K.
Chattanooga, TN, - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 14:26:31 (ZULU)

Rant coming...

When I joined/was in the service, some one was taxed to pay me my pittance.

My pay was taxed (paying towards my own salary).

Once I 'retired' (changed jobs), my 'retirement/retainer pay' was taxed.

I was paying MORE tax on my new/different/civilian job than I received for retirement/retainer pay.

How many times is the same dollar taxed????

I was stationed at Key West, Florida as a 'full Fleet E-3' and could not get military housing... there was over a year waiting list.

I think all military and military retirement/retainer pay should NOT be taxed, or at least not taxed on the first $XX,XXX.00 of income.

When I transfered to the 'Fleet Reserve' (retired with less than 30 years total service), I had just gone over 20 years of service and my Base pay when up to a whopping $1007.00 (1979). I did not receive 'Sea Pay' unless I was onboard a ship, which was $22.50 per month. I don't remember what BAQ (basic allowance for quarters - what I got for living off base) was, but it wasn't a hell of a lot. Base pay for an E-7 with 20 years service is TRIPLE that now. I also did not get 'Submarine pay' (hazardous duty pay) unless I was on a sub. Now, if you go to shore duty from a sub and intend to return to a sub, you get Sub pay while on shore duty.

Here's a link to current pay scales:

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,30821-mil_status_retired-1,00.html

Rant off

Sharon

Larry J. porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, U. S. of A!!!! - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 15:02:04 (ZULU)

WARNING: I'm getting returned emails that I didn't send. Some *ss-whipe has my addy. Don't open anything from me unless I post here saying it's coming.

Sorry for the trouble.

Bill

Edited to add: Joe M. you got mail.

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 15:20:33 (ZULU)

Rex,

I would farm, but it either rains too much or not enough.. Ha, don't get too excited about the rant, I have the same tongue in cheek conversation with my best good buddy back home who's family owns more acreage in Beadle and Hand county than the South of Scotland...Not meant to be offensive to farmers or farming, I get a kick out of 'em, and respect what they do for a living..If it wasn't for farmers I wouldn't have anywhere decent to hunt, all that CRP ground ya know, ha...The market and farm policy does need to change, because Brazil and South America will end up the Western world's breadbasket very quickly....That's where corporate farming is staking it's claim..

Pete,

If the EEC levelled the playing field on farm subsidies towards the UK, they couldn't call us ros' bif's anymore..Zee EEC has a plan for distributing zee farming amongst zee Eurozone see, and the UK is not in the running...Remember the audacity of the French after the BSE 'scare' in the UK was considered done and over?? Part of the plan, man...Heck, we've all ready sold out on fishing rights, mining, manufacturing, farming's next...

Dry,

Yeah, I got that impression...

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 17:29:22 (ZULU)

Bill: Nothing--nada--no email. Try again.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 18:24:13 (ZULU)

Whoops; sorry I forgot the rule about sitting in the poison ivy!

There's another about putting your knee on the cactus.

I still can't call a coyote to save my life this year.

Mites got em all I guess.

I bought a buffalo gun but so far haven't found a buffalo herd either.

Rex; I ain't sure that would work. I was around on a farm before the subsidy. The first one I remember they called, "The Soil Bank". Wheat and Cotton was about the same price today though and everything else has increased 10 fold so you might be right. Only thing I don't quite get is that we are paying CRP for land set aside money to farmers who are irrigating and depleting the water sources at a record rate on other land right beside it and paying jacked up prices for butane to run the engines. And others who have retired on CRP payments...and sold all their machinery after it's written off and still buy some machinery to not farm with.... and all in the name of reducing production. I know if seems to be working for them and I love CRP ground for hunting and lots of other reasons. (keeps the dust down for one). Just don't make a lot of sense to me the way they do it. Stand aside there I wanna fill up my car with that funny colored Diesel Fuel.

Mike I had a uncle (ex navy) who lived down San Pedro in a modest little house and worked for the P.O. He sold it for 2.1 million and retired back here in God's country. You might outta think about that. There ain't no Arizona any more.... or so the song says.

Brogers
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 19:03:29 (ZULU)

"The cav, well maybe those guys ought not be allowed alcohol under any circumstances. "

HEY, WAITAMINIT!

Wadya mean no beer for the Cav! You ain't a communist is ya?!?

CSM, take that man's Stetson!

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 19:24:18 (ZULU)

Undude,

I'm interested in getting one of those SS10x42M scopes for Kelly's gun. IF they are really made for SWFA and not Tasco, as per SWFA's comment.

If this is true, and any service is needed, the scope would be shipped back to SWFA right?

The world has one more United States MARINE ; )

Jarhead nephew #2 came home Saturday after finishing basic.

In spite of a case of food poisoning, and I think he came home with walking pneumonia (he's at the Doc's office now) he finished.

I'm so proud I could bust!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 20:05:16 (ZULU)

Capitalism does not include subsidizing anything.

I can understand some short term funding for national defense interests, but I am against everything else.

There is no 'lobby' out there looking out for me, and I support equal rights for everyone to my entitlement (absolutely nothing)... get hold of your boot straps and start pulling.

Military pay...I think we should start by putting in place a system that sets the Gold Standard of care when the folks that go in harm's way get hurt or killed. Soldiers should go into battle knowing their family will be taken care of should something happen... they should be confident that should they be wounded or crippled while doing their job, that they will get GREAT care and will have the financial support they have earned for their sacrifice.

The same should be done for cops, firemen and anyone else that goes in harm's way in service to the citizens of our nation.

medicjim
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 20:35:07 (ZULU)

Post deleted.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 00:39:56 (ZULU)

Rex - OK - I'll bite (pun intended) - I beg to differ with your claim -sans analysis - on how eliminating the farm subsidies and price regulations would increase the cost of food. We pay more than we should for our food in two ways.

First - Milk and sugar and other foods have prices SET by the government! That is just plain insane especially when you consider that these prices are up to 3x the world average for these commodities. These price regulations are effectively a food tax that we all pay every time we buy a gallon of milk.

Furthermore the subsidy system is essentially another food tax - the self perpetuating system works like this- prices drop due to overproduction - we pay farmers to over produce further - then prices drop more. The government (taxpayer) picks up the tab. Well - I'd rather pay a fair market price for a chunk of dead cow than to have the government trying to manipulate the supply and demand. Every time the government tries to manipulate the economy it fails and the consumer loses. (Try getting produce in the USSR of the 50s-90's.) So, the government pays the farmers- with our money - we pay the farmers- indirectly paying more for our food.

The market will decide what the right price is. If beef goes up upon being deregulated and de-subsidized then more cattlemen suddenly appear, while fewer people get McD's until the price comes down. Funny how that works.

I say the farmers should join the free market - those of us who are already here will welcome them!

----------------------------------------

NOW - on the issue of paying our troopers more just want to be clear where I stand - I am all for it! I personally would double the salaries of our entire force across the board and increase combat zone pay bonuses 5 fold. These men and women deserve our support - they serve a legitimate government function that is just about the only thing morally sound to take citizen's property to support.

You already know how I'd pay for that.

Hell- a contractor driving a truck in Iraq is making $120,000 per year and pays no tax on it - good for them. They don't have to engage the enemy (on purpose) and can leave when they want. Our troops deserve some parity here.

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 01:04:06 (ZULU)

"Few civilians would put up with hours and working conditions that peace time combat soldiers and Marines take for granted."

Tell that to a forest firefighter after a busy season.

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 01:43:38 (ZULU)

In an earlier post I implied that combat soldiers do hard work over long periods under bad conditions. I withdraw that claim.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:08:41 (ZULU)

CDC did say "Few civilians" not "no civilians".

Guys fighting forest fires are indeed in the same class as grunts in my book.

Not that there needs to be some sort of score rating on how hard-core your job is.

General point CDC was making is still valid. Uniformed servicemen do tougher jobs in harsher conditions than the vast majority of civies.

I recall when I when PCSed to Ft. Livingroom - my first impression of my fellow office workers was that they were pogues complainng about waiting a few minutes for the elevator or that the air conditioning was sub-par.

BTW -didn't take me long to be the same way but at least I know better.

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:28:06 (ZULU)

Sorry Medicjim and LTChip:

Sorry guys...I take exception that forest fighters have it as bad as a grunt.

The fire is not making a determined effort to kill him; the grunt's enemy is a thinking, sometimes equally skilled top predator with ill intent. That fire lacks most of those characteristics. That fire may get a firefighter here and there---but it wasn't personal; just bid'ness. The enemy, on the other hand, is trying to kill, goes out of his way in fact to kill---and that is a world of difference.

I might see a comparrison with a LEO vs. a psycho---but then, it ain't every day that a freak wants you dead. The enemy seems to always want that while at war...

"Dying is no way to make a living, boy..." I guess the difference to me lies in intent: Can it kill you vs does it really, really, really want to kill you at all costs. To me--I find that it is a difference.

BTW--In 1989 in Idaho, my team and I got pulled out of a river by a CH47 after running down a draw with a the fire ahead of us on both ridges on our left and right. Up til then, firefighting seemed pretty much like hard labor. After, it was a terrifying thing when you felt the breeze hesitate or shift. But it simply ain't the same as having someone shooting at you. That fire screwed up a really fun training opportunity we had with 20th SFG too; that was a great UW scenario while it lasted....

Joe M

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 06:51:40 (ZULU)

I always believed that the average wage(civilain) in the USA was slightly above what it is here in Europe or the UK. I estimate that the average family man( school education, no degree, non specialist, lets say welder, driver, with an aprenticeship or equivalent behind him) here in Germany earns around 2000 euro's per month ( thats $2380 ish).Gross, before all stoppages.and usualy they recieve 13 months salary per year. I figure in the UK the same guy would earn maybe about the same at 330 pounds per week making it about 17000 GBP per year.( how does that compare Jon? Dry? JR?)

A German Army private earns about 1300 euro a month netto($1500)

a Staff Sergeant around 1800 euro netto.($2100)

They will recieve more if sent on operations anywhere in the world.

and from the soldier magazine in the UK:

CONTINUOUS Attitude Surveys throughout 2002-03 indicated that Service personnel were, on balance, satisfied with life in the Armed Forces and particularly appreciated the job satisfaction, job security and responsibility. Important areas of dissatisfaction included the impact of high commitment levels on separation.

While pay generally was considered satisfactory, survey results indicated a level of dissatisfaction in relation to skills, responsibility and hours worked.

MINIMUM WAGE: On average, junior ranks worked 45.8 hours a week in 2002-03. National minimum wage rates would produce pay of £206.10 for those aged 21 and over and £174.04 for under-21s. The minimum weekly pay for privates and equivalents in £250.18, significantly above the national minimum wage. Junior ranks’ rates could fall below the minimum rate, however, were they consistently to work 55 hours or more a week (over 21s) or 65 hours or more (under 21s).

Police Pay: 1 pound is 1.8 dollars approx

Pay

Police pay is reviewed every year. Here are the figures for 2003/4:

Constable's Pay

Completed years of service in rank

Annual salary with effect

from 1st April 2003

On commencing service 19,227

On completion of initial training period 21,462

2 22,707 (a)

3 23,298

4 24,096

5 24,852

6 25,650

7 26,382

8 27,039

9 27,903

10 28,914

11 29,589

12 30,186 (b)

(a) All officers move to this salary point on completion of two years' service as a constable.

(b) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competence related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Sergeant’s Pay

Completed years of service in rank

Annual salary with effect

from 1st April 2003

0 30,186

1 31,221

2 32,268

3 32,958

4 33,927 (a)

(a) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competency related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Inspector’s Pay

The pay scale for an Inspector ranges from £38,679 (£40,374 in London) for a newly promoted Inspector to £41,952 (a) (£43,659) (a) for an Inspector with three completed years of service in rank.

(a) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competence related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Promotion

Our promotion policy provides everyone with the same opportunities and if you’re ambitious, we can help you move up the career ladder with training and encouragement at every level. We also provide a High Potential Development Scheme, providing a fast-track route to some of the most challenging work within the police service.

more on our High Potential Development scheme

Pensions

Our pensions scheme offers generous benefits, with the option of transferring previous pensions to our scheme. It’s also worth noting that police officers are contracted out of the earnings related part of the State Pension Scheme, so National Insurance contributions are paid at the lower, contracted out rate.

more on Pensions

Flexible Working Conditions

The normal working week is 40 hours on a shift basis. Shift patterns vary between forces. All ranks below superintendent are entitled to two rest days a week and compensation if required to work over those two days. They are also entitled to leave or compensation in lieu of public holidays.

Nurses:

4. NURSES PAY AND BENEFITS

Nurses Pay Scales from April 2003

With effect from 1 April 2003 national salary scales for nurses, midwives and health visitors will be increased by 3.225%.

Pay Rates Outside of London

Grades in italics indicates inclusion of discretionary points (which are payable beyond the standard upper limit)

Grade A (Age 18+) Auxiliary & Assistants

From £10,050 to £12,615

Grade B Auxiliary & Assistants

From £11,825 to £13,920

Grade C Enrolled & Auxiliary

From £13,465 to £16,525

Grade D Newly Qualified Nurses

From £16,525 to £18,240

Grade E Experienced Staff Nurse (Midwives normally start at this grade)

From £17,660 to £21,325

Grade F Senior Nurse

From £19,585 to £24,455

Grade F Senior Nurse

From £24,905 to £25,360

Grade G Sister/Charge Nurse (Health Visitors normally start at this grade)

From £23,110 to £27,190

Grade G Senior/Charge Nurse

From £27,655 to £28,125

Grade H Nurse Specialist

From £25,815 to £30,005

Grade H Nurse Specialist

From £30,480 to £30,960

Grade H Modern Matron

From £25,815 to £30,960

Grade I Nurse Specialist

From £28,590 to £32,860

Grade I Nurse Specialist

From £33,340 to £33,820

Grade I Modern Matron

From £28,590 to £33,820

Nurse/Midwife/Health Visitor Consultants

From £35,035 to £48,185

London Allowances

Inner London

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £3,333 pa

Outer London

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £2,604 pa

Fringe Zone

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £729 pa

Cost of Living Supplement

From 1st April 2002 all qualified nurses (grade C and above) and AHPs working in London and the South East will benefit from Cost of Living Supplements. Eligible staff working in London receive an additional payment of 4% of basic salary, up to a maximum of £1000. Outside London eligible staff receive 2.5% of salary, up to a maximum of £600.

Fire Service:

Firefighter £15,831 - £20,121

Leading Firefighter £21,546 - £22,434

Sub Officer £22,092 - £23,832

Station Officer £25,629 - £27,639

Assistant Divisional Officer £27,012 - £28,535

Divisional Officer III £28,932 - £31,023

Divisional Officer II £30,720 - £34,056

Divisional Officer I £33,933 - £36,375

Senior Divisional Officer £36,528 - £39,402

so if we take a private soldier, a PC, a fire fighter and a Nurse. all trained. maybe 2 years service we have

Soldier maybe 14000-15000 GBP

PC 21000 GBP

Fireman 17000-18000

Nurse 18000

are our soldiers under paid? well if they do anything but sit in an office and push buttons or sweep the parade square then i'd say yep you bet..

for the unsociable hours and the shit not to mention the possible danger in varying degrees that all 4 of these professions have to put up with, then i'd say we should be looking at cutting what we pay politicians drasticaly and paying the people who realy SERVE the Community and country a wage that reflects what they do for us.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 09:21:17 (ZULU)

P.S.

don't forget that as a soldier you will also be called upon to cover for other career/job types when the others go on strike to demand better pay and conditions, but you are unable to go on strike, or to demand anything.

In my time as a soldier I :

Covered as a fireman when the fire Brigade had a local strike.

Covered as an Ambulance driver/paramedic when the ambulance service held a national strike.

Covered as a prison officer when the prison service went on strike.

Covered refuse collection when the local dustbin men went on strike.

Re-enforced police numbers policing certain demonstrations, marches etc.

Re-enforced Fire Service numbers during floods, forest fires, hurricanes/storms. Provided security at international airports and ferry Terminals.

Add all that to getting shot at, bieng separated from family and friends for long periods of time, not knowing when your next meal is going to be some of the time, not knowing when your next day off will be, not knowing when you will actually see family again,excessive working hours, poor accomodation, sub standard food, guard/security duties, adverse weather conditions, working out side, often with poor equipment..

its no wonder that they have retention and recruitment problems.

I joined as a patriot, left as a sceptic, and sure as hell wouldn't put my kneck on the line these days for what they offer in terms of pay , i was never there for the pay though, i had other reasons, i just wouldn't stick my kneck out carrying out the orders of a Government and Politicians who expect me, whilst ensuring the freedoms and liberty of citizens of foriegn countries, to put up with my freedoms and liberties bieng attacked, restricted and outlawed at home, whilst i am away serving. Then when i eventualy come home i find that i am classed as a second class citizen, i can join the queue for housing, behind all the immigrants, unemployed, single mums and drug addicts, i can't claim any benefits because i may recieve a miserable army pension or have recieved a small lump sum upon retirement, i may find it difficult to find employment because i have been bypassed in experience and qualifications by my civilian counterpart.

But then i'm just bitter abd twisted, and if they expect young men and women to serve thier country then the country should provide something in return.some thing more than they are recieving nowadays..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 09:56:11 (ZULU)

4 i's,

Congrats on the 2nd nephew, hope he's feelin better today.

Pete L.

Did ya get the Titanium or Stainless 700? I've put another hundred or so rounds thru the Titanium one and am very pleased. It appears to even cool a little faster with the deep fluted barrel. The recoil has become a non-issue. It has replaced the LTR as Bear rifle for this season.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:02:10 (ZULU)

Ref: AR-10

A while back George Gardener built me an AR-10. I've just now gotten around to shooting it and learning it. It is a real pleasure to use. It's accurate to about .75 moa or a little better and seems to function pretty well. I've been using Lapua 185 grain match ammunition and the muzzle velocity averages 2,520. My computer tells me that with a BC of around .510 the bullets should stay supersonic to 1,000 yards. I've got an adjustable sloped base on the rifle with an M3LR so there is over 50 minutes of elevation beyond my 100 yard zero. This Saturday I'll shoot the second relay at the 1,000 yard club with it to see how it does "at the grand". (The first relay is reserved for my 6.5x.284 which is also a GAP rifle.)

Ref: Travel

I'm back on the road again next week and the week after I'll be in Nashville and Roanoke. If there are any Rosterfarians in those locations that would like to hook up for dinner and shooting talk contact me.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:22:38 (ZULU)

Ref BBC news web site Hay look we get to live longer than you but earn $430502 less in our lifetime (lucky Sods)

This is what is listed but I belive all a little low on wages

USA

Population: 291 million

Life expectancy: 74 years (men), 80 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: US $34,280 (World Bank, 2001)

Population: 59.2 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 76 years (men), 81 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $25,120 (World Bank, 2001)

Germany

Population: 82.5 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 75 years (men), 81 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $23,560 (World Bank, 2001)

France

Population: 60.1 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 75 years (men), 83 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $22,730 (World Bank, 2001)

Iraq

Population: 25.1 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 59 years (men), 62 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: n/a

Saudi Arabia

Population: 24.2 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 71 years (men), 74 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: US $8,460 (World Bank, 2001)

Dry
UK - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:45:43 (ZULU)

Attempts to make comparisons of salaries or wages between areas, even those within the same country, much less between countries, need to take more than just the raw numbers into account. For a comparison to be valid, one must also consider at least tax rates and cost of living. A given amount in Texas, for example, will buy much more than it will in California, where real estate prices and taxes are higher. Tax rates in Europe tend to be higher than in the U.S., while in Saudi Arabia there aren't any. And GNI per capital cannot be compared to average annual income.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:23:03 (ZULU)

John(acehigh), i handed over the marlin this morning, sad to see it go.. and i pick up the stainless remington this evening, sold the marlin for the same as i bought the remington. now if i can get the damn auto feed on the lathe to work again i may just flute the bolt, the spiral flute is just another multi start thread..

Dry, well i am above avareage earnings at least.. but i only earn 3/4 here in kraut land of what i would earn doing the same job for a the Govt or TV company in Holland or the UK. I stay here and earn ten grand less a year because there are no damn pigs or deer in holland that are huntable worth mentioning,and Holland would be nearer home than where i work now. and if i worked in the UK i would have to bloody fly back and forth to Germany to get home to the family. and besides i like schnitzels and weizen bier.

I went to the local authority yesterday to de register the marlin and register the remington, when all the paper work shuffeling was done i asked for the form to apply for special permission to possess a moderator, the lady in the office looked at me as if i was osama bin laden and flatly refused to hand over the damn paper work for me to apply, then i went on to explain why i wanted a moderator, she had a look of horror on her face, she then said, you can apply for a moderator but i'm telling you now the application will be refused so its a waste of money, we have had orders from above not to pass any applications for possession of moderators, and once you apply you will your name will become highlighted and you will be constantly scrutinised and if ever there is a problem they will be on you like a ton of bricks, all because YOU applied for a moderator..

but thats ridiculouse i said.. now if you refuse my application then when i eventualy have a hearing loss from hunting without hearing protection, cos we all know you need all your senses to hunt, so hunting with ear defenders is impossible, the i will be able to sue this department for my hearing loss?

No No NO, this is Germany she says..

ah so Germany isn't part of the same Europe as the UK then because this European legislation on noise pollution and health and safety is where the use of moderators in the UK is coming from, says I.. or are you telling me that the Germans authorities are cherry picking bits of legislation to suit thier selves?

no answer.

The problem with the German authorities is that they watch to many James Bond films and have no idea what a moderated rifle sounds like.. have you ever fired a moderated fire arm? i asked..

blank look..

have you ever fired a firearm?

well eer no..

typical i said..

she the got on the defensive and had a go at me about wasting her time and that moderators where totaly in appropriate for shooting.

Eh?? eh?

i left the office with a disgusted look on my face..

burocrats and politicians..

who needs em..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:38:01 (ZULU)

FYI re: 185gr.-12.0 gram Scenar

I just weighed the first eleven out of a new box of 100, out of curiosity, not to actually sort them, or so I thought.

2-185.0

3-185.2

5-185.3

1-185.4

Now I am tempted to sort 'em! One of the 185.2's was fluctuating between .1 and .2 but from Lapua I was suprised at the variance.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:46:00 (ZULU)

Ref: Bullet weights

John, are you using a digital scale? Beware Hysteresis!!! The affordable digital scales can be pathological liars.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:59:13 (ZULU)

Joe, posted..."The fire is not making a determined effort to kill him;"

HE's close enough to be technically accurate but After a few "firefights" I wonder if that statement is totally acceptable but it's technically accurate non-the-less. I haven't checked lately but on a percentage body count the highest risk job in the U.S.A. including soldiers fighting on foreign soil was a Volunteer Firefighter and this was way before 911. Maybe that's why they call these war skirmishes "Firefights". Either one is scary enough for me. By the way I think we are running a close race between 911 firemen lost and Soldiers in Iraq but the soldiers are winning fast if we don't catch on over there. Being an EMT or beat patrolman in some of these garden spot places in this country would make me wish I was back above timberline if I had to do that one too. I'd prefer not to go to a Restaurant in Israel either if I Planned on doing the rest of those 74 years.

Kevin' I hope that "inferior equipment" gets you by in those shoots! Good luck anyway! Psst.... (he's probably the one to bet on!)

I got wonder which seminar that Oakley gal attended or who taught Wild Bill Hickcock to shoot. Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson probably were just lucky that their opponents didn't have a couple of weeks training at Gunpoint Academy. (just kidding). Don't nobody get their britches in a bind. Schools are wonderful, I went to one for a couple of years and there I learned to read, write and become an Internet pest.

Seen the Alamo yet?

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 13:04:48 (ZULU)

All -

Just got a Call from Bruce Robinson (Mr. MildotMaster) on the road. He says he will be hard to get hold of for the next week or so. He said to have anyone that needs to get in touch him - to get hold of me (Ken) either via email or phone. I can get his contact info to you.

Take care all -

Prayers for the troops and troopers out there.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Vaq, USofA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 13:58:43 (ZULU)

Joe M: Once on Crossfire, Pat Buchanan and Barney Frank's sister agreed that "...there's nothing to walking around with a rifle...". Their total military experience consisted of watching a couple of reruns of "Combat!"

This becomes a bigger d**k contest with dog-catchers.

Forget it.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:03:28 (ZULU)

Bill, I bought it on DVD. The local merchants have an uncanny knack at piracy....

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:32:04 (ZULU)

Pete: Census Country? Now that is a new twist, even for here!

Heheh

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:34:12 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon, please reread my post, especially the EXACT quote I pulled from CDC's post. Please note the words "peace time".

Soldier pay.... kill off a few pork programs and double every enlisted man's pay...LtChip nailed it. Mail the surplus back to the folks that paid too much in the first place. Done, no arguement from me... money well spent.

PeteR - Firefighters in the US cannot go on strike (at least in New Jersey). Volunteers are even subject to legal action if they fail to show up for fires en-mass.

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 15:16:39 (ZULU)

Jim, the military cannot strike and i ain't sure about the Police, i don't think they can either, but Nurses/medical staff, Fire Service, Prison Officers and every one else can.

The ambulance strike was was a hoot, mostly, got to stay in a hotel and even had a sundries allowance.. hell i still have the blue flashing liught from the ambulance i drove, squaddies and souveneers eh..

now on the opposite side of the coin, when the prison officers went on strike we ended up guarding prisoners in a make shift jail, that was once a prisoner of war camp, the " inmates had 4 men to a room and a common room with a TV, a shower and a toilet between 8 men, we squaddies where in tents and huts, 2 toilets (1 portable) and 2 showers between 60 blokes and no TV. The policemen who where drafted in where put up in hotels localy and recieved extra pay.. the soldiers always seem to get the shitty end of the stick and the thin end of the wedge.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 15:47:20 (ZULU)

So Disney's PC version of "The Alamo" is a hit? Leaving out Santa Anna's declaring himself Emperor is like leaving the tequila out of the margarita. Revisionist history makes me tired.

Bill: "...I learned to read,(and) write...".

I hate to be the one to break it to you.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 16:22:15 (ZULU)

CDC; Hell,it was only the second grade what do you expect? I apologize for your great ability to understand everything in the world except the words of a Redneck. My wife signs the checks what the hell do I want with a 3rd grade education? We Rednecks were code talkers in the last war didn't you hear about that?

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 16:32:32 (ZULU)

OFFICIAL 2004 DNC CONVENTION PROGRAM (for anybody that cares)

6:00pm - Opening flag burning ceremony.

6:30pm - Anti-war rally no. 1.

6:40pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

7:00pm - Tribute theme to France.

7:10pm - Collect offerings for al-Zawahri defense fund.

7:20pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast

7:25pm - Tribute theme to Spain.

7:45pm - Anti-war rally no. 2. (Moderated by Michael Moore)

8:00pm - John Kerry presents one side of the issues

8:25pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

8:30pm - Terrorist appeasement workshop.

9:00pm - Gay marriage ceremony.

9:30pm - * Intermission *

10:00pm - Flag burning ceremony no. 2.

10:15pm - Re-enactment of Kerry's fake medal toss.

10:30pm - Cameo by Dean 'Yeeearrrrrrrg!'

10:40pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

10:50pm - Pledge of allegiance to the UN.

11:00pm - Double gay marriage ceremony.

11:15pm - Maximizing Welfare workshop.

11:20pm - John Kerry presents the other side of the issues

11:30pm - 'Free Saddam' pep rally.

11:59pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

12:00am - Nomination of Democrat candidate.

----------------

>>>MK4, HA! I like it: "Gays, God and Guns." I’ve had the same “talk” with my congressman. Got a nice reply back this last time, he might have “gotten the message”. Still, it’s actions that matter, not words. We’ll see.<<<<<<<<<

The upcoming election will the ugliest yet. Not much of a prediction but a safe one. We need to start getting in the "battle" mentality of helping to get the vote out. The liberals will be pulling out their heaviest artillery yet (as if they knew what that meant).

----------------

On another note: I was flipping through the CBS, NBC,& ABC stations and stopped long enough to see an Army Colonel (not sure of his rank but just a guess) tell the news camera in regards to reports coming out of Iraq; "Turn the channel, turn the channel, turn the channel!"

So I did. Was good advice.

Oh yeah, "God Bless Fox News."

-------

Lito,

Leave them SASSy wimmen alone and post a few ;))))))

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:00:58 (ZULU)

Fox news is reporting heavy enemy calualties near Falluja...

Marines fought fierce battles Monday and Tuesday with insurgents in Karma, a village outside Fallujah. Some 100 gunmen were killed in battles in palm groves and over canals that were so intense that wounded Marines were sent to rejoin the fight.

"They ran in there with bandages and all," said Col. B.P. McCoy, commander of the 3rd Battalion.

Marines came under two heavy ambushes Tuesday, the best coordinated and largest guerrilla operations in days, said Capt. James Edge. Two Marines were killed Tuesday and two Monday, the military said.

Scott Smith
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:03:14 (ZULU)

Kevin Mussack - email sent through SC, no attachments

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:13:02 (ZULU)

This is tedious. If I ever post here again, I'll - at no charge - give Bill my .308 Winchester.

Bye.

Update: He replied that he had plenty of guns and didn't want it. After I foolishly posted again he appears to have edited out that statement.

Cute, huh?

I am mortified to have been involved in this conversation.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:26:31 (ZULU)

OK, Since you asked. I will be the first to admit that the farm subsidy program needs to be fixed. Question is how to do it? The program was originally put in place to prevent the nations farmers from all planting corn one year and all planting cotton next year because of the "Free Market". Since production cycles of crops are typically one year long, farmers don't have the luxury of changing their production schedules based on "Quarterly Reports"! In the 20's, the crop production would swing from on extreme to the other, one year beans, one year corn etc. Big brother says "we can fix this!" The subsidy program was started to compensate farmers for growing a balance of crops, not just the one that was bringing the best return at the time. Along with the subsidy came control of how much of each crop you were allowed to plant, all in the name of evening out the supply, and thus stabilizing the crop prices. At least that is how it got started. In 1973 wheat was sellng at $2.35 a bushell, the combine we used cost $8,000.00 used, diesel was .15 a gallon and a loaf of bread cost .15 to .25. The 230 acres of wheat land produced about 45 to 50 bushells per acre dryland on an average year. In 2003, wheat sold for $3.85 per bushell, the combine cost $187,000.00 in 2001, diesel cost $1.65 per gallon, a loaf of bread costs $1.50 to $2.50. And the 230 acres still makes abot 40 bushells to the acre dryland , in a good year. All of this is assuming that there is adequate rainfall, no hail, and no insect problem that year.

Or look at cattle, beef sold for .15 to .25 a pound on the hoof in 1973. Today beef is selling for .85 to .95 a pound on the hoof at any local auction you care to name. AND THERE ARE NO SUBSIDIES ON CATTLE!!! Ya'll do the math!!

Between foreign imports of beef and produce, escalating costs of fuel and labor, and especially equipment, the subsidy program has degenerated into basically a bribe to entice farmers to say in the business. In 1973 farmers were about 4% of the population, now they are hovering at 1% or so. Given the current outlook US farming could easily go the way of US manufacturing, OFFSHORE!!

Don't have all the answers, just know and see what is happening. But the US still pays the least for groceries of any country in the world!!!

But, since this is not Farmingcountry.com, a shooting related item. Had about 40 turkeys in the yard yesterday AM. Since it is spring turkey season, and there seemed to be numerous toms in the bunch, I promptly eliminated one from the gene pool. Man, fresh turkey breast strips, chicken fried with gravy!!!!!

Farmrant off!

Rex.

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:51:38 (ZULU)

Rex,

You have to purchase a $187,000 combine to harvest 9200 bushels of wheat on 230 acres? How many days per year is it in use?

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 18:49:19 (ZULU)

LtChip,

To directly address your Questions.

1. There are no subsidies to cattlemen from the Government. I sell cattle bi weekly at auction for .85 to .95 a pound on the hoof. You pay $5.00 to $8.00 a pound in the store. Where is the difference? If I was getting $10.00 a pound on the hoof, you would now pay about $80.00 per pound if the margins to the middlemen did not change. The margins to the middlemen don't change, regardless of the cattle market. During the Madcow scare a while back, the price of beef dropped to .50 a pound, did your store prices go down? I did not think so. US beef is the cheapest in the world. Ask the Japanese or the Germans. Or the UK. Argentine beef is cheaper on the hoof, but not by the time you buy it at the store.

2. Sugar beets and cane sugar are 90% imported from South America and Central America. Who sets the prices on imports? Not the farmers!

The milk industry, I have no close association to and cannot comment, except to say, ever buy a gallon of milk in Europe? And the farming in Europe is 100% subsidized.

Just so you know, there are only 3 beef processing entities in the US. They control the price of beef in the store, not the cattlemen. They also have the buying power to somewhat affect the auction price. I have bid my cattle up and brought them back home many times to avoid taking a huge loss on them at auction.

The problem as I see it are the long lead times involved in crop production. Lets say that 50% of all farmers decide to plant nothing but corn next year, because in our open market, corn was $15.00 a bushell last year. Now upon harvest, almost a year later, corn has dropped to $2.00 a bushell due to overproduction. About half of those farmers go out of business due to losses, because it cost $6.00 a bushell to produce. Nation wide , there are only 75% of the farmers working compared to the year before. A couple of cycles like this and soon there are not enough farmers to produce the basics. The govt knows that food supply is the key to stable population, it is in their best interest to keep it stable. Problem is, since the subsidyprogram started on crop prices, no one subsidized the tractor mfgs, or the petroleum mfgs, or any of the normal suppliers to the farmers. Income from crops stabilized, expenses did not. How do you make up the difference?

Long story short, if the subsidys were pulled to day, there would be no shortage of food for a while, there is too much production and reserve for that, but then prices at the store would escalate beyond what most people could pay. If farmers were getting what it cost them to produce plus a margin for living, and the PROCESSORS continue to get their cut, the prices at the store would be out of sight. True, if people quit buying, then market forces would bring the prices down. Problem is , people would get hungry and revolt before this market cycle evened out. But then you are back to the one year production cycle, if the food runs out in the winter, you are still 6 to 8 months away from production, even if there is no drought!! So now you are relying on our buddies the europeans to help us out!! Or the South Americans!! Good Luck!!

Rex

Rex
Spur, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:02:58 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

No, we couldn't buy one at that price. The old one was 40 years old and guess what, parts are no longer available. So we did like 80% of small farmers and paid someone else to cut the wheat this year. Another $6.00 per acre expense. Of course, the harvesters HAD a $187,000.00 combine and it took them 20 hours to cut that field. It used to take us about a week wtih repairs etc. Farming has become a numbers game and economies of scale rule the day. Our operation has become what is known as a "HOBBY" farm. What we produce on this acreage just about pays the land taxes. Everyone involved works off the farm to pay the bills. If you want a real eye opener, just go on down the the local cattle auction, and then go by the local farm equipment dealer and ask a few questions!! The price disparity will astound you.

Sorry for the bandwidth guys, just wanted to rant a bit! No more Farmingcountry!

Rex.

Rex
Spur, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:23:52 (ZULU)

Medicjim. My apology. You did say peace; good catch of my miss too. On the other hand, more than once found myself fighting forest fires in that infernal peacetime BS. Hahaha. Yeah, it was only when things were real bad for the pros, real damn bad---before they "gave" us the safer edges of the fire. That one in Idaho caught us on an Op...once we evaced the center, we came right back on the edges. Three smoke jumpers dies that week in Idaho. None of us ( a bunch of pissed SF guys and a happy Infantry battalion from Carson). And I'll be damned if I saw a difference from out of control and contained. Fire was fire; it all looked pretty out of control to me! Those jumpers had brass balls the size of cantelopes. Good thing they they had straps sewn across their knees, a tree limb woulda pounded them balls and gave 'em a pair o breasts to die for (heheh)! I've jumped that silly rig (RT)---they can have it. Mil Para pay ain't enough to intentionally knock down trees like a human three-quarter axe!

OK, so I respect those guys. My point was off topic. War wasn't included. Rats...I have an easy life with that off the table! Heheh. Unless you count that snivel and the reserve thing (ouch), the two trannies that lost oil in flight (both came apart on the ground, or I wouldn't be writing this), or the round that hit my ammo pouch in the shoot-house. Pointing bullets away in the pouch does deflect rounds! Go figure! I thought that was a BS urban legends...basically, I got myself into dumb situations from lack of experience. But, intentionally going into a burning house, forest or whatnot is an act of courage that stands tall in my eyes. All respect to you, the firemen, and the LEOs of all stripes.

Ya know, I was indestructable in my youth. I may never had believed that--but looking back---I sure acted like that. How we manage to survive youth is beyond me!

War is hell though. I think I'll just go read another damn book...(ha).

White house trip: Nicole recited the course of her day in one breathe on the phone; she has never said that much to me. The trip made a deep impression on her. She met cabinet folk, the first family was in TX throughout. Still, she was more impressed with some purple dinosaur anyway. And, the stature of that house was not lost, even on a four year old! Very, very cool. Gents, a civic minded citizen in the making. And one proud pappa.

Hi Dan! Gotcha! You may be quiet--but you still lurk...

Joe M., with tongue firmly in cheek, even as I proudly salute all you who serve the public! (shameless plug, the cop-wife's puter is back online.)

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:26:18 (ZULU)

Rex, email me offline and talk me out of putting cattle on my land. I was thinking about it. If nothing else, they'll keep the grass down in front of my targets, right? heheh. I have eighty acres out back for them...and no big issues with return if things go south on the market. I just want to raise a small herd to add another chapter in my book. Any one-over-the-world advice is welcome.

Cattle country. This place is too much sometimes.

Anybody know anything about rifles around here?

High point of the day: Someone dropped off a pallet of optics in amnesty this week. A pile of ACOGs ($120K worth), largish box of raptors (200K), and some PAC4s (no price yet, but a shitload of devices). I am in the process of putting them world-wide visible. Any of you army-types with an interest, hit me offline--we may be able to cut an MRO to your unit, and if you are enroute--all the easier--but i got to know some things we'll cover in the email chain.

You heard it here first---goodies for grunts that are real combat multipliers. The store closes in mid-may (or faster if they hit the system), so get with me asap.

My theory? Some shitbag probably diverted the shipment from an OIF I unit that has since departed (battalion-size or better) and decided it was "too hot" to try to get them outta here. Easy half a million in stuff, some of which I have no clue as to make (yet).

Oh, and there's a box of scopes similar to ACOGs, but not bell shaped. No idea what they are---they are large, straight tubed, integral ARD, floppy rubber caps, with a christmas tree reticle similar to the TDS with extra ranging marks included. The eye piece is slightly larger than the objective....hence, my initial looking through the wrong end in front of my troops. Ha. They laughed when I turned it about. The ARD got my attention pretty quick, but not before the motion was definate---I was busted for being dumb...heheh.

And a box of AIM2000 lasers, very much like the PAC4s, maybe a different licensing deal.

A bonanza for any unit who can get the required info to me. Quick---they won't last long on the system once I load it. Email will place hold for serious inquiries.

Bill? You need this stuff?

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:50:21 (ZULU)

And the MPs/ CID is involved.

Now to make sure these go to a combat unit and not some ash and trash unit with a John Wayne mentality that gets a lucky break on a requisition...

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 20:17:47 (ZULU)

I'm going to be starting a sniper rifle project soon, and am trying to locate something I remember reading about (on this sight, some time ago I do believe). Using a left-handed rifle, for a right-handed shooter, or vice versa was the topic. It really intrigued me, and I'd like to review it again. Does anyone know where I can find the article/archiece? The "search sniper country" doesn't work for me. Probably a firewall issue. Anyways...

Do any of you do this? I would appreciate any offer of some pro's and con's to doing this! Thank you for your assistance.

Semper Fi,

Lt Jarr

Lt Jarr
Miramar, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 20:32:38 (ZULU)

LT Jar:

OK, first--my dad is rolling in his grave over your nickname! I like it...he and I never squared the service rivalry. Next, lefties once shot right handed rifles out of necessity--why would you want to do that now? I cannot imagine cycling an action wrong-handed. It seems unnatural to even contemplate it. On a couple of hunts where I found myself lucky enoough to take more than one of the species, I've been told my shots sounded like a machine gun...even though I took my time in lining up each shot. I used a "natural" motion, one that was as comfortable as it was reflexive--a trained response, to be sure. But one that is also natural. That is a plus--no matter how much "control" I may lose temporarily at the rear of the weapon. I can't think of any reason to change the follow-up. I am dying of curiosity to find out "why" this interests you though.

Hmmm. Maybe someone will post a link, and I can read what you are looking for myself?

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 21:17:37 (ZULU)

Aw commmon Dan; I apppppologize for outranking you with my third grade education. Ya'll all e-mail him (especially you AB guys) and tell him how much you enjoy his posts and web page directions and he'll be back. Don't forget to warn him that there are Rednecks in the woods too and it won't help to go out there, and offer sympathy that a person of such high thinking, all knowing, and all seeing..has to be in the proximity of such ignorance of sheep breeders like us. Sorry to include the sheep thing! I know how you all feel about that..

Just think Dan if I had went to the fourth grade maybe we would have been equals!!!

I'll beg if that will help...... Dan please just ignore my high (third grade) minded insults and over zealous attempts to patch things up between us and get on back here. I'll miss your sweet personality and forgiving manner as much as your directions to web pages where you can find something or somebody who agrees with you totally on everything possible!

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 21:40:05 (ZULU)

Careful about the sheep reference, ya might get the welshmen aroused.....ha..bloody goose sniper..

Bill, I always thought my 8th grade edjumucashun outranked, and I guess it does....got my diploma on rice paper to prove it. You enjoy Dan's rants as much as you do mine, so ya'll quit yer snivelin, you ol' faaaaht....

Joe,

Yo, you got all the cattle you need....fish in a barrel, aim just below the rag..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 22:13:27 (ZULU)

AYE' my Barrel grinding Scottie friend. Bitch I do, snipe I do, complain & whine I do...... but Snivel. Isn't that something an Englishman do? Never the less..... Dan is my favorite punching bag and vice versa I hope. Just don't get on my bad side or I'll slip in and hack saw and dremmel crown ever barrel you have in the factory. Then your barrels will shoot so good you'll work yourself to death trying to keep up so Just watch it! The Curse; May a bottle of good Scotch Whiskey break in your pocket when you have no spare!

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 22:39:45 (ZULU)

Kevin,

Email sent about the Nashville trip. If you're not working the weekend, you'll be here for one of the largest matches in TN. Shooters from all over the country come to shoot. Bring a stick if you'll be here from the 21st thru the 25th.

Forgot to mension in the email, that many of the US F class team will be here as well.

Chris...

Chris
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 22:51:53 (ZULU)

I know a very good tactical rifle shooter who shoots right-handed a rifle with a left-handed bolt. Since the rifle is almost always being fired off a bipod or other front support, his left hand is not needed to support the rifle, and working the bolt left handed while his right remains on the trigger allows him more speed when he needs to shoot quickly. I grew up shooting rifles left-handed which had a bolt on the right side, and thought nothing of it. It's more difficult to do with a scoped rifle, since one has to reach over the scope, but not enough more to be a serious problem.

When I started shooting rifles again after a thirty-year layoff, I switched to shooting right handed, primarily because my right eye is dominant, and I figured that I might as well shoot the "right" way, but shooting either side seems pretty natural now.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 01:59:20 (ZULU)

Lt. Jarr,

I've seen a bench guy do it so he didn't have to take his right hand away from the grip to cycle the bolt. He didn't win every match. I don't get the theory, as my left hand keeping butt stock pressure against my right shoulder I feel is much more important. I feel like I barely use my right hand for anything but to squeeze the trigger, and I don't think it stabalizes.

OK, IPSC Three-gun question.

IOR and Badger both have a heavy ring with a 1913 rail on top. I have the IOR on a new bolt gun. It's nice. For USPSA Three Gun, would you consider mounting a small red-dot or holo-sight on top of your scope for fast short-range targeting? Most shooters I've seen use scope/dot combos mount the dot on the handgaurd at a 45 degree angle. It seems the get a railed forearm and set the rails at 45 degrees instead of on top and sides.

I was thinking it might be easier to protect the dot sight on top of the rifle instead of on the side, and I imagine that cheek weld breaks down with either a twist of the rifle OR a turkey neck to peer over the ocular lens. Would you guys trust a set-up like this for a tactical/spotter rig?

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 02:12:42 (ZULU)

Dan, relax, we all piss each other off from time to time. thats what makes this place great. We can agree to disagree.

Bill, love you like an obnoxiuos brother. Us rednecks need to stick together. Dan is just a very well educated redneck.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 03:36:18 (ZULU)

left handed bolt gun w/right handed shooter.

Left hand supports buttstock in prone when using supported position. If using left handed bolt you have to move the hand from under the stock which changes position. If you work the bolt properly with the right hand you'll be just as quick and you dont have to change position. Plus you have to load with your left hand which may not be fun for ya. YOu'll still use your right hand to adjust the scope....Seems like a cluster fuck to me...

If a left handed bolt was better dont ya think after about 100 years they would have moved the bolt to the other side???

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 12:25:15 (ZULU)

The only time a left bolt would be better for a right handed person in my humble often disputed opinion is when it's one one of these specialty pistols like the Savage Striker for instance. In that case the right hand is busy supporting the gun while the lelft works the bolt. In the case of a single shot it probably makes little time difference. But it's nice to be able to keep you hand on the grip and not have to shift especially when shooting the internation (similar to Creedmore position).

Mike; we may be a band of obnoxiou brothers and that may indeed be what holds us together. However you have hit on the real reason that the battle goes on between me and my friend Dan. If you think you can agree to disagree with Dan you have my blessing. Dan your Winchester isn't in danger for I have enough rifles but your credibility is if you bow out. You may feel free to respond in your uusual cordial and friendly manner. I will publicly tell the rest of you that we have agreed off line over a year ago that both will leave as a pair but that agreement is always broken by Danny Boy as soon as he thinks I'm over the ridge. Take heart Dan you have every chance of outliving me and you can be free to direct all those opinions that gratify your ego. Even though some of us have a mouse of our own and seek to roam the net. It is your timeless efforts to direct us that we live for.

Brogers
Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 12:38:09 (ZULU)

Kevin,

I weighed 20 or so 175 smk's as a reference, if you will, and all were + or - 0.1 gr. Hysteresis? I've had that since I said "I do".

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 12:40:31 (ZULU)

I can see a use for a right hand bolt, left hand ejection/ loading port, or vise-versa for them south paws out there and i have seen target rifles built like this. and ivse seen right handed bolt guns with right handed ejection/loading ports converted to left hand bolt throw. this was before you could buy factory left hand actions, but the converted examples are still kicking about some where. Reason that most bolt guns are right handers is simply that there are more right handed folks, if there were more south paws t'otherway then we would have had the majority of bolt guns manufactured leftie style.

Do south paws wipe thier ass with the left hand or the right hand..?? i bet half the guys on here don't even bother eh?? ha ha..

Pete..

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 13:40:15 (ZULU)

Dan would post this if he were not in self-imposed exile, so I shall. Victor Davis Hanson, on the fruits of a quarter-century of appeasement, not just of foreign terrorists, but of the people who live in the United States who hate America:

"The autocratic Arab world neither respects nor fears a democratic United States, because it rightly senses that we often talk in principled terms but rarely are willing to invest the time, blood, and treasure to match such rhetoric with concrete action."

...

"If Marx receded from economics departments, his spirit reemerged among our intelligentsia in the novel guises of post-structuralism, new historicism, multiculturalism, and all the other dogmas whose fundamental tenet was that white male capitalists had systematically oppressed women, minorities, and Third World people in countless insidious ways. The font of that collective oppression, both at home and abroad, was the rich, corporate, Republican, and white United States."

Click on my name for the link. It's long, but well worth reading.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 14:04:08 (ZULU)

VDH is ALWAYS worth reading.

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 14:42:48 (ZULU)

Dan and Bill, this crap is not that big a deal. Lets just have some good discussions and not take our balls and go home.

Trully there are big issues in the world and us agreeing on anything is not one of them.

Talking about something brings up new ideas for improvement.

We all can be wrong at some point and move on.

You will never learn anything from someone that agrees with you all the time.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 16:05:07 (ZULU)

'Yote,

Point taken, snivellin ain't youse, replace word with 'pissin and moanin like you was the Bickersons'...

You just keep your dremel and hack-em saw holstered Mister..hah...And cursing the whisky!!! you're pure evil, mang... ;P

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 17:15:04 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thanks for a good read. First time I've read anything of his. I think Bill McCormick is absolutely right.

Dan & Bill,

Take two deep breaths, shake hands, and lets get back to normal. What am I saying!!?? This bar ain't never been normal and I personally hope it never gets that way. "Normal" folks tend to be boring. ;o)

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 17:46:20 (ZULU)

Doc' your on thin Ice there just don't be getting me confused with Normal!

JR; I'll except that pissin and moaning is my stock and trade! What I really love is the sound of a 20000 rpm dremmel tool in the morning!

Gent's all; I'm just here to help a few riflemen get going and I've never failed to try to help if asked by anyone anywhere at anytime. I may give more opinion than anything else but I have yet to hold anybody down and make em drink it. What's yesterday's wine is nothing but an empty glass to me. I don't hold no grudges and make no brags I can't back up. Just get your happy asses down here and see for yourselves if you don't think so. Bring my brag statement with you if you can find it within these pages. So otherwise just be one of the brothers and gimmie some slack for being old redneck and ignorant. You piss me off just offer your hand and it's a done deal whether I think your right or wrong but don't attack without provacation cause I bite.

Brogers
Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 18:02:32 (ZULU)

Congrats, Doc! I think you're the first ever to say that.

Now walk quietly to the nearest Head Farm & get yourself checked out!

Bill

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 18:55:53 (ZULU)

CDC, come on back if yer lurkin. I miss those news item links. Best source of pertinent stuff out there. Always good food fer thought. I did lots of cuttin & pastin, sending that stuff to liberal acquaintances.

Bill M., a couple of Bristol LE boys took top honors this past month at the Sniperweek Challenge in Tampa. Dern good shootin & craft. Both won real nice trophies & Accuracy International rifles. Sweet.

Deputy Doug

edited fer spellin goofs

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 22:31:33 (ZULU)

For those that contacted me about the 1K matches from the 21st thru the 25th of April here in TN.

The clinics on the 21st and 22nd have ben cancelled due to a lack of interest. I'm a bit disappointed, as it would have given me time to shoot the 6.5 in a bit since it's last bedding adjustment,, but such is life.

So, the 23rd will be a practice day, the 24th will be 2x600 yard matches and a team match. The 25th will be 2x1000 and a team match.

Still a great match on a top notch range with professinal Officers. Hope to see some of ya there.

Bill Mc.,

You're too close to ORSA to miss this man!!

Chris...

Chris
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 00:01:25 (ZULU)

Wow, I never thought the argument thing was much more than hard love. Our differences are what keeps us coming back to a refernce page like this. If we all had the same opinions or knowledge, no one would correspond. I'll bet if everybody did have the same opinion, many of you outspoken would change your minds just to be different.

Northside

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 00:11:16 (ZULU)

"I don't know how the marines do it..but the COC is loaded with stark looking marines. The senior NCO's all look like NFL lineman. The junior officers look like marathon runners and the mid-grade officers look like NFL halfbacks...the senior officers are lean, tanned and serious..deadly serious. The place exudes the warrior spirit. If you are a civilian I can't explain it and won't apologize for it. If you are a veteran you don't need to have it explained..the warrior spirit."

A Good Friday message from a Chaplain serving with the Marines in Iraq. Click on my name for the link.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 00:45:21 (ZULU)

Hello all -

FELLOWSHIP:

Dan (CDC) you and Pablito - get your asses back to the pub. We all butt heads - but for the most part - can count on one another when the chips are down.

Some of you reeeeallll long timers remember when Pablito and I first met.... LOL.... Talk about butting heads....

BALLISTICS:

The Single one variable that we are all looking for - for our logbooks is: DENSITY ALTITUDE. It's made up of temp, air density, humidity, baro pressure, etc.

You dont worry about alititude, etc... That one variable accounts for it... Alot of performace race engine tuners use this. It's the bottom line definition for the air that your boolet has to push thru, as well as the air that might be pushing against it in windy conditions.

In theory - you gather your dope for density altitude, and simply refer to those charts when you move from area to area....

Think about it and let me know....It's described in pretty good detail in the kestrel books and I'm sure alot of other places. You folksen out there that are better at this atmospheric stuff chime in and contribute.....

AND FINALLY:

Anyhow -- take care all - prayers for the troops.

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 01:38:28 (ZULU)

"If we all had the same opinions or knowledge, no one would correspond."

True there would be no point in it. But just in case someone missed it. I started this last donnybrook by Agreeing with something Dan said. As long as this guy isn't pissin in your park he's fine but when he does, you will find out what it's like to try to agree to disagree with this gentleman . He might piss in my park again but I've gone as far as a man can go to patch things up with somebody that doesn't want a patch. Please don't confuse this with an arguement between those friends who just disagree. I've done that with many of you and had to eat my words and/or extend my hand to call it a done deal. There's a basic difference in willingness to tolerate other people and a reluctance to put up with it is at the heart of this one folks.

Brogers
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 02:25:21 (ZULU)

What's the best place to buy match grade ammo for 300 WM. Looking for 190 Gr. Preferably Federal or Black Hills. Any good websites that you guys know of?

Thanks.

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, NE, - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 03:53:01 (ZULU)

Bill, if I may call you by your first name,

If I remember correctly, this was about Fallujah. You and Dan were disagreeing with my point of view that harsher actions are required. Dan suggested to kill more enemies than we create and you agreed. I think we already have as many as we can possibly have and cannot create new ones in the Middle East, Southern Asia, Africa. Most every living adult has already chosen sides and what we're hoping for is the "winning of hearts and minds". Ruthlessness didn't work for the Russians in the A-hole because what they had to offer was worse than what the citizens had before. Our way is an improvement, and most people are getting it in Iraq. What we need to do is sweep away all those that would fight to the death anyway and fast. There may be colatteral damage, and Iraqis may hate Americans for it, but in the long run they'll appreciate it when their quality of life improves.

Your issues with Dan go beyond his reluctance to accept that you and he agreed on a stance. I don't know what they are. I don't know you personally yet, but I hope to get to know both you and Dan. You're both good guys on this site. Unless someone cheats or steals from you, and we all need to be warned about it, keep the feuds brief and get over them.

I'm sorry if I caused this in the first place. If I didn't, well then the whole world revolves around me. As for the rest of you out there having with this, don't quote me to take a cheap shot at someone else...

Bravo,

I've seen CETME for under $400 in Like New condition. It sounds FUN! Remington told me the 700P will never have the stupid lock in the shroud, but I haven't seen this year's models. Winnies are for hunting. Try a Weatherby. Have fun lapping the lugs.

Anyone shooting this weekend at KCCC in Bristol, WI? I'll be there at 0800 Sat.

Good night all,

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 03:53:56 (ZULU)

Tommy; You didn't cause anything, that wasn't already an issue. I'm almost in the same quandry as you as to what caused the original breakdown with the party is question. Dan doesn't want to be on the same side of an issue with me but that too isn't the root of the problem as I see it. It's a cultural thing I guess. He considers himself somehow in a different class with intellectuals who somehow are above the need to exchange views with we of (he thinks)lesser education and wrong thinking, it grates him if one in the other class would have a view at all as near as I can tell. I may not be the brightest duck on the pond but I have observed that the smarter a man is or thinks he is.... the more he underestimates those around him. You aren't wrong about Iraq as it stands today. What we should have done there and what we can do now is moot. That's all I was saying. Alan and he, got into a pretty big donnybrook early on with this thing because Alan was talking kick butt big time and Dan was saying that would be a mistake. So it depends on the day I would say as to how anyone stands on an issue.

I just don't see the day that these ancient cultures will embrace democracy and the western way of life and become our emulators. It makes good sense that they would or should but they have had thousands of years to develop tolerance for the rest of the world in manner and religion and that's not likely to happen now or I miss my guess. Japan and South Korea and a lot of other places would seem to increase the chances that I'm wrong but my philosophy on that is that we aren't responsible to have to change their culture but ours is to kick their butts when they do things like they did on 1911. First we cure them of that and then we work on the other stuff. Japan surrendered because of what I just outlined. Germany also fell to it. South Korea and Others for that matter also were affected by the old addage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" as a reason for following Western lead into Democratic style governments. A lot of the thing is about money but in the culture wew deal with now, they have the money it's just a matter of refraining from fighting with the people they have to sell the oil too that keeps them down. Look at Kawait if you don't believe that. The thing I said to Dan is, that he was exactly right because it was too late to do it my way which would have been to kick their asses till everyone there and everyone around there were ready to talk "lets get along!". I say again it's too late for that now. The opportunity is long past and our promise of a better life and democracy to save the day is lost in their own tribial conflicts and the jealousy for power for the factions over there that's caused conflict in the "cradle of civilization" and got their butts kicked many times back thousands of years ago when America was covered with Buffalo Shit and campfires.

Being brief is not neccesarily entertaining to cover another point you commented on. I have yet to find anyone who isn't interested in conflict between someone else as long as their shoes don't get dirty. Start a fight on a steet and see how big the crowd is. So the conflict will rage on as it always will in Iraq and on this page.

My issue here if you have to think I have one is someone who uses their own "perceived by them" intellect or to bring others who might be smarter than they think to grovel at their feet because of their own visions of grandure. Those brethren are the ones that can kiss my Redneck ass.

Brogers
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 12:20:16 (ZULU)

Addendum to DNC convention itinerary:

Over night visit to Chappaquidick with female interns to discuss office policies. (pancake breakfast included)

Mike Wiseman
Harrison, Oh, - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 12:49:09 (ZULU)

Morning Guys,

See not much has changed!!! I have a quick question for the "Learned" ones on here. I started having trouble with bullet runout on my 308s.

I have Redding BR dies an am using neckturned Lapua brass. The problem is my bullet runout goes from "0" to as high as .007+ Its so bad you can see it when you spin the loaded round an watch the tip. I have the RCBS case checker with the dial indicator to check the run out so I know exactly what it is.

I have had the die apart an can find nothing wrong with it but it will load inconsistant rounds as I stated above. Out of 10 rounds you may get 3 good ones 3 so,so an the rest in the .007 range.

I am at my wits end to figure this out all my case necks are with in + or - .002 so I don't think thats a problem. I neck turned the brass to "Clean" up the necks to make sure I didn't have any cases with a thick neck on one side or the other pushing the bullet over.

So I am open to suggestions an ideas. Has anyone else ran into this?? Thanks an play nice!!!!!!!!!

Pat
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 13:56:23 (ZULU)

Has anyone received a recent batch of Varget, and obtained results from it? I'm about to order a keg, and am looking for latest info/results after the issues involving 'bad batches'.

Thanks in advance.

Duman
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 14:49:12 (ZULU)

Anybody doing any shooting?

Anybody going to the NRA convention this weekend?

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 15:34:40 (ZULU)

You have all met people who are not intelligent and don't know it. Bill is one of these people.

Any attempt at a refutation of any of his posts would be like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness. Instead do this test: Read his posts until you find a subject on which you are knowledgable. When you read and understand his argument you'll find that his opinion on any topic can cheerfully be dismissed.

(Edited)

CDC'
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 16:31:48 (ZULU)

Any one going to the Bianchi cup?

Jerry, I shot once then after cleaning and reloading figgured it was too much trouble ;)

I take two days off from roster reading and Yote Bait and Dan are at it again. Dan, you said you were not going to let him get to you again. What happend?

Joe M. The wife won't be going to where you are after all. She will be joining those troops with the saddle blankets. She may get to stop by but not for very long. Damn I served ten years and no combat patch now the wife will be getting one. That just aint right.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
Home of the Alamo, Texas, U. S. of A! - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 16:47:19 (ZULU)

CDC - I'm afraid it's too late... you've already adopted us -- just count this is one of those family pissing contests.. in time it goes away... Just keep posting your stuff and do what you do best.

Hell - it might Mike or me that you butt heads with next.... no problemo there.... just heal from it and go from there.... I sure as hell won't leave and wouldn't expect you to leave either.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 16:55:36 (ZULU)

Is someone sending email or is anyone else receiving email from "Tactical@tacticalintervention"? Received on 4/16/2004 with an attachment. I have not opened the email/attachment because of fear of viruses. The subject line just says: "Incoming message".

Gerry

Gerry
Portland, Oregon, USA - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 17:25:39 (ZULU)

Ken,

Interesting idea using density altitude. What data would you use for the atmospheric fields on a ballistic program? I assume you would plug in standard atmoshperic data and use the density reading in the altitude field?

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 17:33:08 (ZULU)

Gerry, thats my website and one of my email addresses but I did not send it. Virus AH's morph email addresses all the tiem and make it look like its coming form someone you know.

Advice get good virus protection and update atleast once a week. Also if you get an email you are not sure of email back with question.

Neither Dan or Bill are idiots, although right now fellows you both are in line for academy awards for acting like idiots. Both are smarter than they are acting.

Out the door and on the way to teach some dudes about to go into harms way. Lets just focus on whatwe can do for them and not who has the bigger ones. Be back monday so yell at me then.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 18:03:34 (ZULU)

What a beautiful day here in the Peoples Republic.

Went shootin today at Cherry Ridge Range( a bit of chronographing was in order).

Everything was going fine until the range caught on fire.

We have had a lot of rain but a few hours of Sun dried up the surface

leaf matter behind the 100 yard range.

Some Hot lead or more likely Jacket material and thats all she wrote.

A couple of brooms and a bit of furious flailing and the fires out.

I'm getting to old for this much excitement.

Becareful out there the woods are DRY !!

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 19:09:46 (ZULU)

Why Dan; If your so much smarter than me how come you let me bait you back on here like that. You ain't near as smart as you think you are and that's my best take on the subject. One thing about it Dan, nobody ever accused me of being smart so I don't have to defend myself in that respect.

You can't stand to be questioned or speculated upon even by an idiot. I made my case so you just go right ahead Dan, call me an idiot or anything else you can think of. I'm afraid your argument doesn't quite hold water but your welcome to inflate your balls with it.

Why is it you can't take a critical judgement from someone you consider low life and a complete idiot Dan? Maybe you need to read my profile of you again?

Mike; it's ok. Your judgement I trust. Eat and run if you wish.

That's not the cowboy way though!

Dan; anyone can see that your so knowledgeable it's just not practical for you to visit idiots. We all can see that. Now you gone and done it. Mike thinks you too are acting like an idiot. Wanna shake hands or just wanna keep on. I'm asking you in public as a fellow idiot, what's your pleasure? Serve yourself.

Brogers
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 19:20:34 (ZULU)

Bad news;

We lost another Police Officer. He was my neighbor. Beautiful family...

Didn't know him too well.

A great loss.

http://www.mercedsun-star.com/local/story/8444689p-9279330c.html

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Ka., usa - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 19:43:17 (ZULU)

Bill n CDC, i don't give a damn who is an idiot and who isn't cos we all are at times,i freely admit to bieng an idiot on occasions, more often when i get at the beer or have my dick on my forehead and my balls hanging front of my eyes when i'm in rutting mode (you should see me then ,, i'm awesome.. aint i Jon.. JR?) i don't claim to be a rocket scientist but i fly space ships via remote control for a living,i figure i've done ok for a farm boy, with no university degree, and only an apprenticeship as an armourer/gunsmith and my " meister prufung" as a "buchsenmacher" and 10 years military service to boast about. i work everyday with folks who have more qualifications than i can count, who are highly intelectual, highly qualified people, some of them are intelligent and some are thick as pig shit, like wise ive seen common infantry soldiers who where mega intelligent (and i've seen some artillery soldiers who where plain retards), i am an easy going bloke who can tak4e as much shit as i can give and can always see the funny side of the worst situation, but then a " Tommy" always had too.Now in my opinion you both bring a valuable input to this site, so Now for christ sake, quit this dumb ass squabble will you, stop pissing eachother off (and the rest of us along with it) and kiss and make up and get back to you normal modes of rosterhawging, the rest of us won't stand for either of you quitting posting so don't either think about leaving. collect your teddy bears out the corner and lets get back to all bieng friends please. and the likes of Alan and Lito and some of the others who used to post on here should get thier asses back cos i for one miss you all.

I have increased my knowledge no end on this site, i hope i have helped increase the knowledge of others too, i have met a lot of folks from here who to a man are fine people and have become good friends, certainly as good as any i had whilst serving in the military and those of you who have served will know what i am talking about. My quality of life has certainly improved since becoming a roster hawg, and i won't have any silly squabble spoil the fun that this site is.. so sort it out other wise i will be slewing one of my satellites round and will be zapping you squabbelers with a sense of humour beam..

Pete..

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 19:49:50 (ZULU)

Pat,

if you're using compressed loads you may need to replace your seating stem. The Reddings have been known to bell a bit when you use compressed laods and if it belled enough, it may be seating off the tip and thus causing a little tip in the bullet when it's brought down into the neck. I know they advertise them as ogive seaters,, but they contact way further up than the ogive.

Also,, the seating stem or die body may have worn a bit and it's causing some wobble in the stem hole.

I can't think of any other way the Redding BR seater can seat poorly if your necks are in good shape. Unless the press is flexing (doubtful).

You're not using an expander plug in them bushing dies are you????

FatBoy...

Chris
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 21:06:34 (ZULU)

Pete; If I weren't so stupid I would have said just what you just said. But you know what they say about us good ole boys. "You can't starve us out and you can't make us run!" Sorry guys just playin the part no matter how cheesy I have to be. Unless your pretty slow yourself you must have seen my attempts to end this thing. Off line was much more groveling on my part. But that was a year ago. If I shoved a beer bottle in your ear enough I think even you might feel a bit annoyed. Another quote if I might."It depends on whose Ox is being gored!"

Brogers
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 21:07:47 (ZULU)

Am i right in thinking i need high Badger rings to mount a 8-32x56 NXS on a no forward cant base on a fat barreled remington 700? somebody confirm this quick please?

Bill, i'd get anoyed if you tried to shove a beer bottle up me ass, but put it anywhere near me head and my mouth just steers onto the kneck like its lazer guided or summot..

Well i had the absolute pleasure of meeting another roster hawg who is a true gent last night, Joe S has been visiting Germany and we met up last night, had a great evening, realy enjoyed my self, Joe it was great to meet you and your good lady, thanks for all the goodies and the jerky buddy, have a safe trip back..

There is a 4-16x50 PMII S&B heading my way from the S&B factory,,, can't wait till it comes..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 21:24:49 (ZULU)

Watched the kid from Ohio paraded by his captors on Al-Jihad TV tonight. Makes me regret that morse code is archaic, a simple blink sequence:

.._. ._ ._.. ._.. .._ ._ _ _ ._ ....

._ _ _ _ _... ._.. _ _ _ _._. _._ _. .

_ _ _ .._. _._. . _. _ . ._.

..... ... _ _ _ _ ._. _._ _

..._ _ .._. _ _ _ _ _ _ ._.

_ . _ _ _ _ _ . _ .._ ._ ._. _ . ._.

Woulda said, "Fallujah, 1 block NE of center 5 story 3 floor--no quarter."

I did it twice to see what could be sent as the camera was on him.

Then again, SERE and AT courses also may be helpful--what is important is more than your ass sometimes, though you oughta think about it alot before hand---so that if it happens, you can fall back on a plan or procedure rather than fear. Use the sun to plot direction, senses for time and speed, and math to plot possible position. Knowing one floor or two is easy enough---blind fold or not---it is what ever info you can deduce to pass on. I'd rather have a bit of a chance than needle in haystack chance for rescue.

I hold little hope for him in his uniform. I know what it means to me if they execute him....but my fear is most of my country would not get it. Hell, the letter from Hitlary et-al was about "contractors on the battlefield" with no mention of the atrocity that befell them. The point is, who cares why they were there? The issue is the party atmosphere of these dirtballs and the mutilation that was done....that should be the focal point of our energy---not some apologistic BS about security forces. Rantrant.

I just pray that these terrs surprise me and adhere to the conventions.

It bothers me bad to see that kid on TV---more than I probably let on here. That poor kid couldn't know much more than PFC Mahon did back when---and that means he is wholly unprepared for this situation. Either we get lucky or his captors have mercy. Niether of which is acceptable choices for this guy. Damn. I wish I had been his CO...no way would I expose individuals, nor let elements move without mutual support. Array each squad so that it could always hold 3 times their number for as long as it took to converge overwhelming firepower. Make a battalion the only thing that could fuck with me. And then, only after a hard day. Ya know---I see it happen all day long, the mission is to move here to do this---and that is where all the tactics get employed. Nobody thinks about the move itself, just the objective. Never piecemeal yourself, never take anything for granted.

I don't care what is said about how he was captured---it will eventually come down to a leader assuming away a risk because he focused on a larger, more obvious risk. My other prediction is the sun will rise tomorrow. Damn again.

There's a job opening in Lacrosse as an ROTC APMS; I am calling branch tomorrow to see if I can divert. I could impact .7% of a few year groups worth of LTs in that job. Maybe a few more at advance camp. I think I need to try. I'll teach them stuff that ain't found in those sorry manuals.

I hate knowing what I know and seeing that poor kid sitting where he is. Fuck...I hate it. Where was his support? If dead, where was the mutual support? HTF did he get snagged? No excuse. none...

joe mahon
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 22:38:50 (ZULU)

Northside wrote:

>>If I didn't, well then the whole world revolves around me. As for the rest of you out there having with this, don't quote me to take a cheap shot at someone else...<<

Wrong boyo--it revolves around my kids. I seen it with me two eyes. As for quoting you to take a cheap shot, dang! Fresh out of quips...

But lemme see if I got this right: You make statement, statement refuted. Refuted statement affirmed. Agreeing parties toss pies over agreement. You are to blame? how again? Heheh. I'm lost in this confusion...

Bruce: Two arrived. Going straight to BIAP.

Keith: Second box arrived, similar to first in content. Going to Iraq with Bruce's at first light.

All: Any addresses you have in Iraq---send stuff pronto. Divert the whole GFG to Iraq in fact...NOW. I won't get into details (can't)--but mail still moves albeit slower than ever. Things aren't bad, just austere (quantity over quality).

Tobacco, bug repel, sunscreen, candies, jerky, books, AA batts, magazines (coffe table variety, not bottom drawer!), coffee, sunflower seeds, nuts, gorp stuff (pocket food of any sort).

I have a couple addies up yonder---hit me offline if you want to jump in. I can also trans-ship for free, but will be there myself not long from now.

No more packages to this address after April 25--give or take a few days. By mid may, dunno where I'll be exactly. Well, it won't be home---that much is known.

joe mahon
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 22:59:58 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: Got it. Offer still stands on gear if she crosses paths here.

joe mahon
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 23:03:53 (ZULU)

Joe,

Morse code is far from dead. Get a band chart and tune into the lower end of the Amateur Radio bands.... Morse is an absolute blast to learn and use. I'll bet that cranky old cowboy that is arguing with Dan at the moment - has some CW (morse) stories to tell...yes - I'm revealing alittle knowlege about one of his other hobbies :)

Jon Beardsley - I have not been in the code or algorithms for ballistic programs. From what I can tell - the instruments that produce the 'density altitude' measurement make use of temp, humidity, dew point, baro pressure, and some charts that are generated by NOAA (IIRC).

Now - should research reveal that density alititude measurements are indeed a way to be dead on (provided you have dope for the various density altitudes) - then one weakness that would need to be overcome is the fact that you need a battery powered gadget to take this measurement. The instrument - a good example of which is the Kestrel 4000 - relies on charts and makes some calculations.

Anyhow - as always - all of us students of riflery - should strive to learn how to read the environment on our own, independent of instruments... But - wouldn't it be neat to have just one factor to worry about, when you're trying to make charts, etc?....

Just my thoughts anyway ... some of you other folksen that are ballisticians and meterologists (spelling?) chime in and run with it....

Take care all, Prayers for the Troops and Troopers.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 00:20:10 (ZULU)

Happened to be in the office for a few minutes today, got dragged into doing a litle PR. Met a couple & their 4 year old boy. His eyes got real big. Course I was in uniform, had the jack boots on as it was a good "Motor" day. Kids eyes got even bigger when he noticed I was armed. Kid said loudly to his folks, "He's got a gun!!!"

Found out they's from Australia.(Oz as I believe some calls it). Jeezus crimony, the mom sounded like Hillary, all explaining to the kid how no one should have guns but the police.

Couldn't take it, her ruinin the kid like that. Got out the soap box and sat the kid down & explained how things really were, that guns are a necessary tool of the free man to repel criminal(and bureaucratic) minded scoundrels. His ma just about had a stroke, the dad kinda smiled. Was a Kodak moment.

After about 15 minutes, I excused myself to get back to work. As I left, the kid yells out, "I want a gun!!!" Brought tears to my eyes and a smile to my soul.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 02:12:06 (ZULU)

CDC,

"nightmarishly stupid" ?

Why would someone, such as yourself, who is so blindingly brilliant, get his knickers in a twist because someone AGREES with him?

I, for one, am sick of this crap. It needs to stop.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 03:55:22 (ZULU)

Joe,

I have no kids. I'll concede that until I do, the world revolves around your kids. They have a good Daddy.

Density Altitude.

A good friend of mine is an engineer for IHI Turbo. They make the Turbos for the Cummins Turbo Diesel. Here's what he sent me. Back to college. Shit.

Atmospheric Pressure = -0.00003 X Altitude + 1

Density = Atmospheric Pressure / ( R X Temperature)

R is a constant, R = .28698

T is in Kelvin(K), T(K°) = T(C°) + 273

T(C°) = (T(F°) - 32) * 0.55

Here is the Boiled Down single Equation for Density in Kg/m^3

Density = (-0.00003 X Altitude + 1) / (T(F°) X -.1573 - 5.0336)

Density Altitude is also a factor in environmental testing in air quality. Stack testers compensate for this when measuring stack emisions. I used to do just that, so I'll see if there is anything I'm missing.

Gosh. I know a lot of people and have learned a lot of useless stuff in just 35 years. I do like research, though.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 04:33:39 (ZULU)

I found an interesting link with info on possessing moderators in germany, gave me some good ideas on how to out flank the gestapo. They have some interesting pictures of some moderators, one for a 120mm tank cannon and another for what looks like an AS 90, maybe its an M109.. i looked at the can more than the track..

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Schalldaempfer.htm

worth a look at the pics..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 04:42:22 (ZULU)

Joe, Don't take too much of this on your shoulders. There's things that even experience and foresight just doesn't cure. We are here for you and lay it on us anytime you need too but but just don't get too much burden on yourself. You aren't responsible for the bad stuff that happens. You can't save em all my friend.

MORSE CODE? What's that? Now we have sub-titles in Continental Code.

Very interesting, I'm glad there are those who do remember Joe. I remember the POW's used that method. NVA's must have thought we Yanks all had some eye problems...They probably don't even teach grunt radio operators anything about it anymore. Haven't heard much about it myself since that movie, "Independence Day." There you go Dan! When you feel like talking dirty to me, you can use the M Code. Keep it under 45 though I'm getting a little rusty. ...-.-

Brogers
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 04:46:50 (ZULU)

MUST READ:

Subject: From a Chaplain serving in Iraq.

Hot and sunny on Good Friday...quiet in Fallujah and Ar Ramadi. The

Coalition has announced a pause in offensive operations. Humanitarian

aid is being searched and then allowed into the city of Fallujah.

Defensive operations continue 24/7. It is all war, all the time. The

bad guys are regrouping. So are the Marines. The brawl will begin

again...probably tonight. All intel points to the bad guys

redistributing ammo, enlisting kids in the fight and moving for new

cover. Convoys are limited....danger of ambush is high. Life in Blue

Diamond continues, with an edge. Imagine a place the size of Lakeland

Shores with 5 times the population. One asphalt street, two dirt roads. Due to the siege.....no sanitation service for three day, that includes pumping satellites. We are on the edge of the town. We see the minirets of the city and we hear the immams sermons as they rail against us. Good thing few here understand Arabic cause I can tell you the preachers weren't teaching the golden rule today. Morale, sky high. Extra intensity. Friends are on the line. The senior NCO's and officers here, feel the pull the most. They have served with or trained everyone on the line. The Corps is a small community. This is very personal. If a person can do something to help the outcome of the fight, they'll find a way. It's that kind of day. All for one, one for all. I divide the day; Holy Week service planning, convoy prayers, and Combat Operation Center (COC) intercessory prayers. First, I go to the DIV Chaplain office to meet with the command Chaplain, Chaplain Divine, the fighting Irishman. What a man. RC Christians be proud. You've got a great priest here. He spares nothing to get to his Marines. He loves

Marines and he loves God. He waded into Ar Ramadi during the fire

fight, three days ago to provide ministry at the aid station, came back weary but satisfied he was where he was needed. He's on the road, to all the FOB's ministering to Marines. I had the privilege of praying for him, this morning. If he goes down, the morale in this Division would take a huge hit. They love him. Second, I work to coordinate Good Friday, Easter Sunrise and Protestant Easter Service. Having services in a war zone is a little different. A) we have to worry about getting large numbers of people in one place. One mortar round into the right place and you could kill alot of Marines. B) organists are in short supply and we don't have an organ. Music? C) we are going to worship and it will be well attended.........we need Easter because we live in the valley of the shadow of death.......we need the resurrection. Third, twice a day I go to the "Cave." The COC which is housed in a former palace. Poorly lit and the hub of fighting the battle. I stand in the corner and pray for each person/position and those they represent. I don't know many of them, but God does. I pray for wisdom, strength, mercy, endurance and God's presence for each warrior all those they serve or represent. I cover the Cave and the battle field as I look at live imagery projected on the wall. I don't know how the Marines do it, but the COC is loaded with strack looking Marines. The senior NCO's all look like NFL lineman. The junior officers look like marathon runners and the mid-grade officers look like NFL halfbacks. The senior officers are lean, tanned and serious, deadly serious. The place exudes the warrior spirit. If you are a civilian I can't explain it and won't apologize for it. If you are a veteran you

don't need to have it explained. The warrior spirit..... These Marines are in a street fight. They don't have the word "lose" in their vocabulary. They've been bloodied and their anger is up. The intensity in the COC is contagious. This is a tribe of warriors. They exist to close with and destroy the enemy. They have their tribal mores, rituals and rites. Their enemy has desecrated members of the tribe and taunted the Marines. They've asked for a fight. The Marines are in full pursuit and absolutely determined to annihilate their foe. I'm sure that sounds harsh to politically correct ears and those for whom this type of violence is anachronistic. It does not sound foreign here. It is status quo. We are in a violent land, with an evil element and they are having violence visited upon them. There is no room here for half

measures. This is a test of wills. One side will prevail. That is

clearly understood and never discussed. It is obvious. We aren't

playing paintball. We are at war. Fourth, Convoy prayers. Convoys go out of here regularly. I hunt them down, pass out a small card with a convoy prayer on it, and then gather whoever wants to pray and we pray. The number of prayers is going up, hourly, as the ambushes continue. Here's how intense it has become. Today's standard preconvoy brief now includes the following: "If you drive into the kill zone, two options. Drive through and on, or reverse and drive out. Do not stop!!!!!! If you are blocked into the kill zone, displace from the vehicle, find cover, fix the target, engage, manuever and destroy the hostile forces. Target selection rules have changed. Avoid civilians, if possible. Hostile forces are now using civilians as shields. We are not interested in losing more Marines. If you can avoid putting civilians in your line of fire, avoid it. If not, fire to take out the hostile forces." Implications? Chilling, we've entered a new dimension. We are fighting an enemy who respects no laws of humanity, knows no rules of landwarfare and gives no quarter. How do we fight, without become barbarians ourselves? Fifth, ministry of presence. In a place this

small, I walk from shop to shop and just say, "Hi." Can't tell you the number of times someone says..."Hey, Chappy, it's great to have you here." Something about seeing a chaplain is calming to folks this close to the fight. Good Friday in Ar Ramadi. While you're having lunch I'll lead the evening Good Friday service. We will remember our Savior who willingly laid down His life that we might live, and we'll be thinking about young Marines and soldiers who are willingly putting their lives on the line so Iraqis can be free "No greater love hath a man than to lay down his life for his brother..............."

Good Friday to you,

Chaplain John

brian k. sain
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 04:58:54 (ZULU)

BKS, TO good a post!! Made this old soldier a little misty eyed! DAMN we've got GREAT people on the ground REGARDLESS of their duty position!

DRIVE ON!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 06:21:27 (ZULU)

Bill,

I had to learn that stuff when I went through pilot training. Wasn't too bad listening to it and writing it down; but reading it from a flashing light was a real bear for me.

Brian & Sarge,

Amen!

All,

Does anyone have any experience with the new line of Henry rifles? I sold another "Big Boy" .44 mag yesterday and every time I see that brass receiver I cringe and go into flashback mode. Polished too darned much brass when I was a NAVCAD in Uncle Sam's Navy. The rifles seem to be very well made; but I wonder how well that receiver will hold up. Hard to believe they come from Brooklyn, NY!

Doc

_.. --- -.-. [I think ;o) ]

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 11:51:09 (ZULU)

DUMAN

I just bought a new jug of Varget. I'm shooting a Win. Mod. 70 HBV.I chrographed my accuracy load which is the older silver colored WLR primmers. Here's how it played out. FED 210M 43.0 Varget avg. velocity 2625 E.S 49 (OLD) WLR 43.0 Varget avg. vel. 2662 E.S. 28 (new brass coloered) WLR. 43.0 Varget avg. vel. 2670 E.S.22 All with Lapua brass and Sierra 175 SMK Smallest group .50 So much for the Fed 210m that i always thought so much of.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL., - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 12:07:00 (ZULU)

Duman and Gary; I just got a new 8lb Jug and one about last november. I didn't look at the lot number and haven't opened the last one yet but It all seems to shoot about the same. Not saying it always did but for me it always did. I learned to use VARGET from a friend of mine who had a friend... and then got on here and PeteR got me interested again. They have another very similar in performance type. I think they call it Bench Mark. IT's smaller than Varget and just a little more powerful or at least I hit maximum a little sooner but it's really nice stuff. As we tried it, we found about the same accuracy so didn't make the big change to it as I usually have about 16lbs and use it in everything from .223 to 300mag. (now some might say it don't work in .300 mag.) my e-mail would send you the load and the precautions that you absolutely must use Magnum primers.

-.-. .- .--. - -.. --- -.-. you got it right.-.-.- Did anyone ever use 5 letter code groups ciphered and have to decode that stuff without a machine? Another "company" I worked for once used it quite a bit. What made it bad was the code changed every few hours. I've lived too long and tried to do too much and now I'm just hopelessly lost in my iggienorance. Any body know if the ship board license is still good or still required? I know the Coast Guard was the first to quit using the Morse (radio version is actually continental). Another lil fact just in case the archives will be interested someday is that True Morse is wire Telegraph language spoken mainly by Rail Road people only. I once had a friend that could run about 35 or 40wpm in either language. I could never get my fingers to move faster than about 40 till the electronic keyboards came along. Some could actually read it about 60wpm but couldn't take it down that fast. There was once a fellow name T.R. McElroy who had the record at send and receive 60 wpm. and that was no electronics involved. Just a vibrating "Bug". My FCC Engineer friend Joe Johnson (there are 2 of them there so if you know one that doesn't do Morse he's the othere one. I think both are retired now could do faster than 60 with electronics. My top speed on code groups was about 35 or 40 depending on how much beer I'd had. (45 with a little Budweiser) but license requirements for ship board is 20. Code groups at 25 was about where they send some code groups and try that one sometime.

Sorry but thanks for letting me go back in time a minute. Ken see what you caused.

Brogers
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 14:05:12 (ZULU)

Bill, alcohol got me to 18 WPM send/ receive on a leg key. Without it, I was stuck hard on 15. That's the point where it becomes a response rather than a thought process. High hurdle for me. I knew a guy who used to break morse on ciphers, writing the clear text as he heard the code. That's trigraphing as he went--amazing mental dexterity. I was just a back-up on my team---4th man deep on the bench. Spent most of my time blowing shit or spotting. Good thing to, I have a shit fist (sporadic rythm)---affects dancing with the wife too. I always heard the beat of a different drum....heheh.

Morse is just one way to say hello. The more tools in your kit....especially the ones in your head that don't weigh much...the better. I think this experience will focus our Forces to training.

There are seven Raptors left. Ken M--email inbound. It is doable with more info needed.

Hahahaha. Let's give these shooters the tools to kill these shitheads around the clock! 24/7 scunion on the BGs--put a healthy fear of Allah in their hearts from sun-up to sun-up.

I know that I can't begin to right all wrongs---I know that I can't identify all that is wrong---I know that I am good at few things but not good at all things by a long shot, too. But I sure do miss those dudes (Viet-vets) who taught me a little of what they knew. I wish they were here now with these kids---teaching them now what they tried to teach me then. I wish we listened to them when they were here teaching--and I wish we hadn't learned so much more than them with our little TDY wars---ohhh, how much smarter we all think we are over those old dinosaurs! War isn't like they said at all---so why train that hard? I think now some of us know why....but it is a bit late.

The only good thing is: We are currently making a whole new generation of "those dudes." Our kids are seeing what is working---and what isn't--and they will begin the cycle again. I think that knowing what not to do is the most important thing---the rest is easy if you get that down-pat. One thing not to do is to pass up any training opportunity or to lighten up just because it rained today...hard is as hard as you can make it. Everything else is soft---and soft dies easily in a long, drawn conflict.

Now this is war---those other things we took so much experience from was, well, an engagement here and there. We discounted that which we were told about war by those who lived actual war because we found it to be different.

Until recently, that is...In a year or two---the cycle of true competance of the force will have come full circle in my time. Carter hollowed my army, Raegan paid the Vets to build it back--and how they did!--then GHWB used it--and how it performed!Then, Clinton hollowed it down yet again...now, we are gaining the old skill sets needed to focus on the important things again...and there is talk of building it back up a bit--yep, a full circle. I know I don't want to go much past the peak before I retire---the 90s were tough to take once after seeing where we were at the begining of the eighties. That part of the circle is no fun. Twice is enough for the low end, but first to see twice at the top before i hang up these spurs!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 16:11:12 (ZULU)

Joe,

Years ago as an A+++ personality mustang lieutenant/junior captain I knew I was going to put myself into an early grave. I could feel it in anger, frustration, and blood pressure. Some of the best advice I got from a peer, Captain Jay G., was:

"Don't worry about what you can't change. Everybody with a brain sees it. Cream rises and the sXXX will sink.

"Take your small part of the Army and make it better."

Best advice I ever got.

Believe it or not you are now one of us dinosaurs that our young troops will remember (like we did to the NCOs who formed us). Shoulder the load. Lead by example. It's worth it.

Make our small part of the Army better. The troops deserve it, and our country deserves it. Somewhere down the line, an NCO or officer YOU touched will make a difference.

Godspeed. Keep the beans, bullets, batteries, and water coming, brother.

sinister
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 16:56:11 (ZULU)

WARNING RIOT STARTING COMMENTARY FOLLOWS;

I believe that during the draft everyone able at all got their shot. We got some good people in the military that way because the weeds left the Garden in droves and those who were really suited to the task mentally and physically stayed. Pre MTV we had kids that at least had to clean up once in a while and learn to make a bed tight. Draft made a college man out of many who knew they couldn't/or didn't want to try to cut it. At any rate it aged them some and made them realize that the world situation was more important the Britney Spears belly button or the number one CD of the week or blue hair. Hippies and Vietnam soldiers alike at least got a chance to see their own polarity in the pond and got a glimpse of life in reality. Now all they see are things we older people consider a waste of good lives and a human declination to what feels good at the moment and whats cool now being the driving force. Volunteers were for a time at least affected by the "Big Picture" method of recruiting and now the "Army of one!" now takes it to the bottom of the deck instead of dealing off the top. I don't expect to see it change but I can only wish it would.

I didn't direct this to you Joe, but God help us all if we lose those like you and Dave and Gooch and Rick and Sarge and all the others around here my feeble mind won't recall at this moment. Some don't believe in the draft and you have my sympathy in advance but I was there... then and now. It shaped your life and your existance. Most of us knew we were looking at the Military one way or another as soon as mom cut the strings and it did enter into the character of the whole younger generation. And then came MTV.

Brogers
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 17:34:41 (ZULU)

Density Altitude- Ken, the Kestrel instructions sounds like something that should be in the articles section. HINT, HINT!! (easy for me to say, I don't have to/know how to do it)

Draft-dunno about that reinforcing citizenship values. Did grow some folks up, also got the kids from different parts of the country together. Kinda reduced the "those dumb smucks" attitudes a bit. Getting the kids of the self styled elite in contact with the real world wouldn't be a bad thing.

WR Moore
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 18:21:54 (ZULU)

I just finished a GREAT book called "A TABLE IN THE PRESENCE". It is written by 1st Bn/5th Marines Chaplain during OIF and the taking of Bhagdad.

If you are a Christian or Spiritual at all you need to read it. If you are agnostic or athiest, you need to read it. Talks about God, war and men. Fucking outstanding.

Click on my name for the amazon link

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 19:17:17 (ZULU)

Sinister,

You have Duty Roster mail inbound n/a.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 20:27:32 (ZULU)

good evening gents,are we all playing nicely today..

I think some kind of draft is a good idea, it doesn't nesseseraly have to mean combat service. but some kind of service for the country and some kind of disciplin is a good idea. I can definately tell the difference when we get a trainee here wether he has completed some form of Military Service or not. Those that have are easier and quicker to train, more reliable, better team players and fit in better.

Whilst researching the current european firearms laws over the last days i read some where that a stipulation for private gun ownership was having completed some Military service, i think it was Italy, or the Tirol region..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 20:50:07 (ZULU)

All: Do me a favor and drop me from all future conversations. I don't want to monitor this board.

CDC'
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 21:24:46 (ZULU)

CDC, what sort of attitude is that?

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 22:35:33 (ZULU)

I think I could live with that.

Brogers
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 02:34:50 (ZULU)

Guys i'd like the straight poop on the ruby ridge/ Randy Weaver thing, i'm doing some research and trying to sift the propaganda from the truth, can some one give me a brief out line of this incident. Thanks Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 03:23:39 (ZULU)

Peter...See "From Freedom to Slavery" by Gerry Spence, Weaver's attorney............

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:30:24 (ZULU)

Weaver was solicited by a federal agent to saw off shotguns....failed to appear on warrant....secretly stalked for over a year by US marshals who confronted without a warrant, and shot his armed young son in the back after shooting his dog when the boy upon seeing the man shoot his dog fired at him and turned and ran....friend of Weaver shot and killed a Marshall in the gunfight....officers were in camo and unidentified.....siege began....Lon Horiouchi (sp.?), FBI HRT Sniper fired a round at Weavers wife through the window of the cabin door as she held it open for the retreating Weaver....She had her infant in her arms when the bullet blew half of her face away....10x scope within 100yds.....Weaver was convicted on the firearms charge but cleared every other charge....the Feds. settled out of court for over 3 Million....FBI was fined by the judge for contempt and were found to have tampered with and destroyed evidence....

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:45:29 (ZULU)

CDC'

Feel free to not monitor this board, just as we'll feel free to discuss whatever and whomever we choose.

jcopeland
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:49:02 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info, on and off line.. looks like i found web site of a political party that is actualy telling the truth..

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:51:37 (ZULU)

JC...........AMEN........

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:57:22 (ZULU)

Off to Augusta, GA. again. Anyone in the area want to hook up for a brew and small talk, post and I'll check the board on Monday.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 11:54:39 (ZULU)

G'day folks,

Joe,

Keep the faith mang, you are doing one hell of a job over there for our country. And I thank you a million for you and your compadres effort...Youse guys are making it happen, taking freedom to a land which needs it, and bringing some major pee and scunion to the BG's, we are proud of you...

Brandi(sis) is down in KC having some tests run to see if her ticker is up to Army specs..Kind of a rough time, if she fails she is out of Army after 9 years in, if she passes she goes to Iraq..She wants to pass..Back home they don't understand why she would want that, to go to Iraq, leave her family behind, to go to war...She has two answers to that..Duty..Honor..Plus she says she's tired of practicin'...I couldn't be more proud of that girl..

Bill, Dan,

With all that sweet talk this past week, I'd almost think youse guys were swappin spit...

Speakin of spit, woo hoo, getting some copenhagen in this week....

Pete,

should be getting some post soon, labelled steel tubes...keep those spaceships orbiting, and those lugs lapped mate...I tell you what, there was some new split that was about Saturday nite I wouldn't have minded lapping her lug..more of a bore lap though...

Did a bit of lampin round Newcastleton and Kielder Friday nite, was pretty damned cool actually...I hit 0/2, hahh, but had a hell of a laugh, good experience...Might make this a weekly ritual, was good fun..this boy needs some trigger time...

Catch ya later ladies

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 12:52:07 (ZULU)

jc, marc s: You win.

To anyone who does a Google search and finds me here: I'm leaving because of the noise. From this point on I'll no longer monitor this board and will no longer defend myself here. Believe what you read to the extent that you trust the objectivity and candor of the individual contributor and the rigor of the argument made. You'll notice that some of these guys are quite sharp. Others aren't. Consider the source.

(I edited this and my previous post.)

CDC'
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 14:27:09 (ZULU)

Peter, incoming mail via roster method.

Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 14:34:51 (ZULU)

JR,

Sis is in my prayers; I'll ask God to grant her wish and then to watch her six...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 15:33:02 (ZULU)

....On behalf of Bill, I accept the Winchester......(not holding my breath though)

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 15:38:21 (ZULU)

Brian, just read your post on the chaplain....very good. Thanks for posting it...watch your six and be safe....

Marc
Pa, the best damn one on the planet USA - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 17:01:22 (ZULU)

JR; it was a hell of a date but the lovin was worth it.

Marc; Watch your UPS I'm sure you'll have a package coming.

Wow; "the information, intelligence, experience, education and intellectual honesty of the individual contributor credible. "

I thought for a minute there "he" was talking about me.

Well, we can't all be intellectuals I guess. Sorry I don't meet your specifications "name I can't mention goes here". GEE "You" I hope your not leaving on account I'm stupid. "You" being such a great judge of character should avoid places like this where stupid people lurk. Try AR-15.com there's no foolishness there. Sorry guys up there in AR country, I wouldn't do it too you but I know you guys are tough!

Seriously, one more time. Why don't you just drop this idea that everyone you speak too or is around you has to be a Rocket Scientist (apologies Pete) and let's put this bullshit behind us. You are supposed to be the smart one. I never called you stupid and I never said your were an idiot or anything else you've labeled me with and only offered you a chance to kiss my ass a couple of times. Surely you can deal with that. If I ever see you I'll buy you a beer and you can try to kick my ass if you still want too, How's that?

IF you decide to leave ask yourself how happy that's gonna make you? I may be stupid and sometimes I get close to anger at things I read but I'll be damned if I am dumb enough to let somebody get my goat with a damned key board. And you aren't either! You can argue with me about anything anytime but drop the name calling and the references to being stupid and we'll do fine. Get over the idea that you can ignore people you feel above and life and try to deal with it a little more gently. Even if you go you need that change.

Brogers
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 17:42:50 (ZULU)

Doug and Bill, incomming via roster email..n Bill, i ain't no rocket scientist, although that is pretty straight forward, its the flight dynamics that baffle me.

JR, i is like a kid waitin for christmas. n if you would get your fingerin the trigger guard rather than other such upening more often you might hit summot, just make sure you don't do a 2 - 1 with your other gun..

I pulled the barrel on the stainless remmy today, then i pulled the heym too, i'd love to know how i fucked that barrel up, sucker went from 1/4 moa all day to 2 inch groups .. it must have realy taken a ding when Rebecca knocked it of its bipod.. any way, the stainless factory barrel fits the chrom molly action as far as CHS goes just perfect, seats them hornadys with just a little pressure, exactly the same as the heym was set up.

Jon b.. i sat the stainless barreled action in my brit cammo HS stock and it looks real cool, the colourslook great together.

gonna pick up the boys action from the engravers and then sand blast it tomorow, then i'll be truing the stainless action and driling and tapping the screw holes out to 8/40. busy this week, have to bed the mauser, and finish 4 700's

add that to the DIY and Garden . busy man i am,.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 19:13:40 (ZULU)

REF: AR-10 WARNING!

When assembling the bolt into the bolt carrier, do not press the bolt too far back into the bolt carrier.

There is a design characteristic (flaw) which will allow the gas rings to expand and catch locking the bolt into the rearward position.

This condition is not repairable and the assembly must be replaced.

Be warned.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 20:38:50 (ZULU)

Pete the Rocketeer,

Probably what it was, trigger finger's pickled..Should probably southpaw on the other, but got no sense of direction with me leftie, might end up makin a beeeg mistake, WOOPS sorry doll..never know though, dirty girls round here...Might not go for the 2-1, but wouldn't count the 71 out(that would be the 69 with 2 fingers, oh you get the point....) Personally I go for the 68, you do me and I'll owe you one..Nah, couple peek a boo shots under the lamp, wasn't really confident on either shot when all I could see was eyes, no body, will get more acquainted with the kitty like dogs, was real good fun!! They can sure rip a lamb in bits eh, sheesh, drug one back that had a newborn lamb stripped from front legs to rear, all was left was spine and rib cage inbetween..Back home we have coyotes to keep the fox at bay, don't see much of 'em though they're there..when the tubes come in shoot me a email, I'll give you the lowdown on the what-nots on HS and such..When you're up, drop off your Heym at my place or Jons, and will give it a good proper once over, figure out what the skinny is...Tell you what, f*** Ettrick, should be huntin Kielder north of Geoff's, saw more bloody deer Friday nite.....

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 21:14:12 (ZULU)

To bring the curious up to date, CW4 Hugh Denson of the 5th Army Small Arms Readiness Group (US Army Reserve) and about a dozen volunteers from the Texas State Rifle Association trained three groups of soldiers from the 1st Cavalry Division and two heavy Enhanced Separate Brigades bound for Iraq. The Texans trained the groups to shoot the M14 to 600 yards on known distance ranges at Camp Bullis, Texas, outside San Antonio.

Those kids are now downrange and earning their spurs.

The Army will continue with programs to train soldiers to engage targets to 500 and 600 yards with M16 Designated Marksman Rifles and 7.62 systems as divisions and brigade units of Action identify their needs. The rotation system is a little off now, so the Army will adjust schedules.

I'll let the Roster know when and where we'll need help again. until, then, cool your jets, please.

The Army picks up gas, meals, room, and a small stipend to make up for the lost time from the real job.

We have an AR-10T in Afghanistan that I'm told shoots REAL straight.

Yesterday my son shot 100 rounds of .22 Short CB caps from Grandma's Remington 41. My family has started training our fourth generation of riflemen. Grandma was tickled it was with her rifle.

The Army Recruiting commercials they aired on the History Channel on the network airing of "Band of Brothers" are getting better.

The line I remember most from the whole series of DVDs/tapes was the last, from an interview in the episode of recollections from the actual Easy Company vets themselves ("We Stand Alone -- Together"). Dick Winters (the Commanding Officer) recalled a letter to a man from his company, and he told the interviewer about it.

A grandson had asked "Grandpa, were you a hero (in World War II)?"

"No. But I served in a company of heroes."

sinister
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 23:53:31 (ZULU)

Sinister, question on the 77 grainers from Sierra. I was slow to start using them because BC advertised was not much better than a 68 or 69 grainer. This week I shot a bunch of the 77's and they fly a great deal better than the 68 or 69 grainers. Now the question have you guys figured a better BC for the 77s than advertised and do you have much wind drift and elavation dope on them? Thanks for your time.

Was shooting a GA Precision built AR/SPR and man that thing shot great! Out to around 750 I ahd to remind myself it was 223 and not 308. Made hits all the way to 1100 yards before running out of internal elevation adjustment and mil to hold over on the M3 LR scope. What a blast. Mike S. you have to cacth me to gte it back.LOL Seriously I called George on my way back from Camp Roberts and said to make me one. Man can that guy build a rifle.

Bill, glad to see you back to normal on here. I like our conversations

CDC, well your decision to make but no support from me on it. I hope you rethink this one.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 01:14:45 (ZULU)

Brogers, did you have a little dust storm today?

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 02:04:23 (ZULU)

CDC',

I win? I didn't realize there was a competition. I was just astounded at the arrogance of your saying your weren't going to monitor the board, therefore no one should mention your name.

In all fairness to you I do (did?) enjoy the links you've posted and other informative items, both world-view and firearms. I just think you need to get over your animosity towards Mr. Rogers.

And yes, some of the contributors to this board are quite sharp. I wouldn't presume to say otherwise about anyone in a public forum even though I was MENSA qualified over 30 years ago. Everyone has something to contribute, you just have to be astute enough to see it sometimes. If that sounds arrogant it is unintentional. It was just meant to show you something if you can look past your own arrogance to see it.

Even though I disagree with your name calling and obvious dislike for certain members of this forum I think you should continue to monitor this board and contribute to the discussions, but keep your hostility in check.

jcopeland
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 04:19:23 (ZULU)

Fred; she blew! There was more wind on the plains today than on this roaster if you can believe that. I went out and shot a little anyway but getting down wind is the only way to make it work. I should have taken my Sharps. At least it's too heavy to blow off the table while I'm checking the target. Ammo sticks pretty good too unless you set it end. Then it gets blown off anyway.

I'm not gonna add anymore hostility to this situation with he that I can't mention but someday perhaps the learned one will realize that ignorance around him does not rub off. Even those considered hopelessly stupid may have something to contribute to the knowledge of the great ones. If we were all the same intellect with exactly the same knowledge what would be purpose of this board?

Brogers
Monday, April 19, 2004, at 13:02:55 (ZULU)

Mike, I don't know the particulars on the Sierra 77, but we have gone to heavy 77 Match Kings almost exclusively. We had our pick of all the heavy magazine-length 5.56mm bullets (68, 69, 73, 75, 77, and 80, both moly-coated and raw). We routinely use the 77 for 200 and 300 yards, to 500 yards with rack-grade M16A2s and M16A4s, and for Rattle-Battle (rapid fire) at 600, 500, and 300 yards. Still using the 80s at 600, and 90s at 800-900-1,000.

The newest M16A2/M16A4 variant is the USAMU Designated Marksman Rifle. We've built the first 20 of 220 weapons for the 3rd Infantry Division using Krieger, Schneider, Hart, and Douglas 1-8 barrels.

We turn the barrels from blanks, free-float them with a Daniel Defense M4 12.0 (12-inch) full rail forend, install a Knight 2-stage trigger, and test fire with 77s. We ship the rifles with a Harris S-L bipod and 500 rounds of 77s. Accuracy is about 1.5 MOA (off the shoulder) to 600 yards, MOA out of a machine rest.

Shawn Ratigan of Trijicon says 77s out of a 20-inch M16 barrel fly the same trajectory as 308s out of an AR-10T. That works out handy since the reticle of their 7.62 ACOG scopes will work on both an AR-10 and an SPR/DMR. Haven't tried it with an M3LR or MRT, but imagine they'll fly the same.

sinister
Monday, April 19, 2004, at 15:09:02 (ZULU)

"This is tedious. If I ever post here again, I'll - at no charge - give Bill my .308 Winchester."

Bill maybe this is what you win?

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 15:47:43 (ZULU)

6.8 SPC... Anyone think this is as rehash of the 6 & 7 mm TCU's? But so they could use thier own designation they went with a .277 bullet? I may have to build a 24" Bull barrel 7 TCU flat top upper to play with.

Joe, I will let her know.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
Home of the Alamo, Texas, U. S. of A! - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 15:59:09 (ZULU)

Kevin,

Thanks for the heads up on the AR-10.

Dirty Steve

6.8 is on a different case from the 6 & 7 mm TCU. I believe 6.8 is using a shortened 30 Remington case.

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 17:14:22 (ZULU)

Hi everyone.

This may already have been posted here, but there's another great program supporting our troops. It's called Books For Soldiers, and has a website: http://booksforsoldiers.com/

Troops can log-in and request a specific title. They do CDs & DVDs too. Looks like a good deal.

Chris... I'm too close to deployment to make it. Sorry, buddy, we'll shoot together when I get back. Who knows, I might have my B4 identifier by then. I'll be looking for really large fields of groundhogs then!

Bill

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 17:23:24 (ZULU)

Jerry; What would I do with a Savage 99 sniper rifle?

The seriousness of this conflict is greatly overrated.

Insults to me are just like the Kansas wind. Just as soon it didn't blow but, when it stops all the tumbleweeds are gathered up in the fence row where they can be burned and forgotten.

Brogers
Monday, April 19, 2004, at 20:53:45 (ZULU)

I finally found my password! 8-)

Major Joe, 5 packages went out today, including some of the stuff you requested.

Joe

Joe
PA, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 21:28:37 (ZULU)

I forget whether it's been mentioned here, but Rifles Only in Kingsville, Texas, is hosting the Sniper's Hide Cup match on May 14th through 16th. It's a team competition with a prize list which includes McMillan, Premier, Badger, GAP, HD Rifle, Strider Knives, Surefire, Tactical Response Magazine, Tac Pro, USO, SWFA, LaRue Tactical, and Nike, among others.

Mark LaRue contributed a LaRue falling-plate target to the competition at Paris, Texas, last month, which I was lucky enough to win. I don't know what he's contributing to the match in May, but it sure is handy having your own LaRue target!

My partner Tony and I will be at that match. I'd sure like to see some guys off this site who I haven't met yet - it's nice to put faces with names, and I know it's going to be a fun and challenging event!

Click on my name for a link to a series of posts about that match. Rifles Only's web site is, oddly enough:

http://www.riflesonly.com

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 23:39:40 (ZULU)

What's a "sniper rifle" or what is wrong with this picture?

US Officials called for the people of Fallujah to disarm today. The statement read by the US Military spokesman (forget his name) calls on people in Fallujah to turn in "illegal weapons," like sniper rifles, bomb-making materials, missiles and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

In return, coalition forces would agree to allow full access to the city's hospital and arrange for burying the dead and bringing in food and medicine to parts of the city. They would also loosen the night-time curfew.

My problem with things like this is it demonizes "sniper rifle" and that is the same attitude that the press and government want to take here. Classifying a some Iraqi's personnal bolt gun with RPGs is just plain idiotic.

I watch the development of the new government of Iraqi and how our government is influencing it especially with regards to liberty -since liberty is now the primary reason for our occupation and as Bush reminds us the thing that we Americans love and will fight for while in the same breath (literally) saying that we need to continue anti-liberty laws like searches without probable cause. We had better remain diligent on our liberties or they will be Patriot Acted right out of existence.

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 03:39:59 (ZULU)

Two items:

1. RE: 6.8mm SPC

Article in March/April issue of "Rifle Shooter" magazine about this

catridge (6.8 X 47mm). Has some exterior balistics.

2. I'm interested in the Winchester .264 Magnum. If anyone has

experience with that cartridge, please drop me an e-mail via the

Roster.

Jay Dee
Pasco, Washington, USA - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 06:05:20 (ZULU)

LT Chip,

Dude, do not equate the disarming of a hostile force with the sad attempts to disarm citizens in the US. I for one want those bastages to lose access to scoped rifles, among other things. If they give them up voluntarily, so much the better.

But rest assured, we will take these weapons from their cold dead fingers just the same. The alternative is what in your mind? Letting them keep them? These fucks have shown a propensity to use them to fill our body bags!

So what exactly troubles you about this?

There is in my mind a tremendous difference between disarming hostile forces and disarming populations. What the Iraqi government does next once constituted is where you should look for the rights of bearing arms. My guess is that it won't be there for years to come. The three camps, all armed, is not a happy situation for anyone in this country. Not until they have a common bond of some sort. This ain't the US, not by a long shot. Bearing arms is a two edged sword, but the one edge is currently sharper than the other. I have no doubt that given the means, the three rival factions would each attempt to gain primacy through these arms---not to be content protecting their homes and way of life. They may do that anyway, but to have any chance at all of forming a peaceful, democratic society--they must be equals, not in mind, but in reality. Over time, things could change.

It is imperative to win this one---to stabilize the region if nothing else. Once reformed, terrorism will die from this quarter.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 09:36:14 (ZULU)

ASC #3 update.......

Just a few words to let those of you who are signed up know that we've not forgotten about the upcomming match..Rod and I were out on the mountain this past weekend. Weather permitting tansport, you will love your first firing point when you shoot Rods' part of the match; remember where the Taliban target was???? Those of you who tried the small tile up at the cabin last year had better bone up on your POA/POI at odd ranges...I have lots of small tiles. To ad a bit of pressure, there will be some drills limited to one shot per target..some of these scenarios will have bonus targets for those with the cojones[sp?] to risk it. Our contingent from the Corps suggested a good multiple target drill that we think you'll find interesting, challenging, and humbling.

A FEW REMINDERS..There will be no opportunity to check your zero. Pack light and share the load with your partner. Be ready to deploy your gear at the FPs and to range targets and get your shots off in a timely manner; a few extra minutes per shooter per FP X # of shooters= hours in the course of the day. There are NO facilities; Be prepared.

We look forward to seeing you all again. Hold hard!

Bruce Robinson...The chucks are out; by the end of June the little ones will be on there own a the Hornets will start stinging. Cheers.

outa here

Markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 12:26:59 (ZULU)

The .264 is acceptable as any magnum cartridge that can do almost mach4. Light recoil for a magnum. Barrel life is not as bad as you would think but not good either. Most of the old pre 64's were good at long range game. I wouldn't say it's a Sniper Round but it would certainly work if you had a one shot one kill application.

As a Sunday Sniper Match gun or even an F-class it wouldn't be at the top of the heap for my choices. This round will explode a jack rabbit or tear a coyote in 2 pieces, but as a long range Antelope or even Mule deer round it's quite good. I saw the largest Elk ever killed around here (B&C)shot with one round right through the bread basket by a 15 year old boy. The beast waa lying down and never moved. It's an interesting story that another hunter shot a 30-06 round at precisely the same instant and jointly claimed the kill. The debate when on till someone found the .264 bullet in body. No .308 was found anywhere in the Elk if I remember right.

Brogers
Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 12:43:27 (ZULU)

Bullet run out update....

I think I finally traced it down to the damn shell holder!! I don't know how brass can wear out a steel shell holder but it must.

I tried seveal dies, cleaned the press, used different brass, neck turned cases, you name it I tried it. I would get about a fifty fifty mix of less than .003 to a +.007 on bullet run out.

After installing a new shell holder I have kept my run out to .003 or less for over 50 rounds. So I am hoping this was my problem. Thanks to all you guys who responded an e.mailed me!!!

Pat
Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 14:03:26 (ZULU)

I stand corrected Joe.

It is just that I know the likes of DiFi and Schumer are thinking - "if our military has to ban these evil sniper rifles to be safe then we should ban them to for the safety of our law enforcement and the schools" - just bugged me.

Of course you are right about disarming a hostile force - or even a population -for a while - if there is a large hostile force living amonst them.

We need to win - yes. Winning in Iraq will be the cornerstone of our winning against all militant terrorists who want to kill us.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 14:48:57 (ZULU)

Lt. Chip, certainly you are just messing around wwith this? If you want to compare what we are doing in Iraq to the US gunlaws I suggest you take a trip to that side of the world and see if are way of life is similar. While you are at it take along good American Values and see how they apply. These are not US Citizens working toward retirement. These are folks wanting to kill every one of us. Please dont buy into the media BS. Your guns are safe right now, bit if "I am sorry I did bad things in war" Kerry gets in prepare to be boarded. Then you have something to worry about.

Its a war zone and needs to be treated that way.

Time to be strong.

On Storm Mount. Love that place.

Pat, on bullet run out. Crap I just shoot them and let the groups talk for the ammo. Figure if I did all you guys do I would not be able to shoot. I would think "Run out" and already have an excuse to miss. Doomed for failure.

Worked with NG Snipers this last week end. Nice bunch. All are ready to be deployed and ready to fight. Not one bitch amoung them. Since I am too crippled to go back over to the sand box right now, its about all I can do. Made me feel better and I plan on doing this as often as I can. I urge others that have talents to follow this and donate time to train troops. Lets face it they are goinmg to go and if you teach them one thing to save one of them, you are having an impact on the good of the USA.

One of the things I taught them was the Mildot Master and man they loved them. Bruce Robinson donated enough Mildot Masters for all of them. Way to go Bruce!

Lets all give Bruce a hand. Brother he is what makes America Number One.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 14:59:37 (ZULU)

Mike, you'll hear no argument from me--Bruce is one fine man, and a model of the American citizen. Too bad he's such a rare breed, eh? Present company excepted, of course.

LTChip: I know what you meant now...propaganda uses of these tactics to politicize and agenda for bans are beneath contempt...and should that be the case, I will be the loudest critic of the butt head who tries it. Mainly, because as a gun owner I would feel that I was being compared to my enemy and found similar by these maggots. Trust me, That will get my editorial page rage going fast and furious. In that, I see your point. As for disarming--well, one way or the other the BGs will lose their toys. Personally, I like the involuntary techniques.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 15:55:20 (ZULU)

Robert Martin,

375 in 5r is doable mate..338 as well..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 18:12:20 (ZULU)

Another Beautiful day in the Peoples republic of NJ.

Played Hookey from work to go shoot a few.

308 Winney Stealth just purring along !

If you can hold it,It will REALLY SHOOT !

Anyone use a Knee Bandage or Ace Bandage to build up the Comb of a

stock to get Cheek weld??

I think I need to grow longer wiskers. LOL

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 18:40:19 (ZULU)

Steve,

Next time you decide to take a day trip up to Cherry Ridge, let me know a few days out... I have a membership there and will try to join you.

medicjim
Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 18:46:10 (ZULU)

Ok Jim,Will Do !

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 19:16:22 (ZULU)

Ok i asked this before and i forgotto write it down, whats the damn thread size in the badger bolt knobs? any one post me the thread?

JR.. still no xmas?? and Tod at HS Precision says hi and sends his regards..

Believe it or not, small celebrations where occuring all over Germany today. anyone guess the occasion?

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 19:45:12 (ZULU)

Happy Birthday Adolph... 1889 I believe.

medicjim
Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 19:59:21 (ZULU)

First off hi to all , hope we are all doing well . Does anyone have any knowledge or better yet experience with any ammo from either Wolf, Silver bear, or Sellier & Bellot . Not so much for use in long range shooting but for use in handguns and AR-15's and the like . Seems to be priced very inexpensive . Does it feed and function properly ? I noticed they list most of them as steel cased and laquered to be non-corosive is this good for the action and barrell or does it foul it to much ? Thanks in advance for your help .

Tom

Thomas Ciavolella
Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 20:12:32 (ZULU)

Mike and Joe ,

You guys are correct - there is no comparison to our gun laws and what should be done on the ground in Iraq.

We have to do what it takes to win - this is war and during war - it is totally just to disarm anyone who is or may be a threat or who can be turned into a threat.

Joe- you explained my concern better than I did.

I am just hypersensitive to the potential for stuff like that announcement to be taken out of context and applied to us here by some elitist, statist, politicians.

Thanks for setting me straight.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 21:07:45 (ZULU)

Pete L- Well we're back in the US and unpacked. I've been reading that book you gave me and really like it. Thanks for the great company and for having a "few" with me. The German beer did go a little to my Yank head =) It made the 0600 wake up for the drive to France and Luxemberg kind of hard. Ah yes 4/20 AH B-Day...I suspect Gaby's uncles are having a secret beer in Russelheim. We went to the Ardenns area with one uncle and he gave us an off the beaten path tour. He showed us where his unit attacked in the Battle of the Bulge. He got a little emotional too when he found the spot where his best friend was killed in a Panzer IV when it was hit and burned. More later off line.

Hawgs- If you ever get a chance to go to Gemany hook up with Pete L. He is a excellent guy and made the evening of beer and jaw jacking all the better. I think he was a little attracted to me but that's OK....LOL just kidding Pete =)

Lt Jarr- Hit me off line with a tele number. I'm a lefty that only uses righty actions. I'm in the east county of Dago, we'll have a chat or meet up.

Jon B-More than likely I'll cancel the order and get the stuff elsewhare then mail it to you. I gave what I had to Pete and I wish we had seen Rob Opps post about the shop the day before I left. It will be handled. Let me know how that mount holds up to the recoil too i'm interested in it.

Till later,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 23:29:19 (ZULU)

JR,

I'll be a-talkin to ya, mang!

Tom,

Wolf ammo-bad news in an AR. The varnish builds up badly in the throat and is damn near impossible to get out. For the couple of bucks you save, the couple of hours cleaning don't make up for it. I've been known to use S&B 9mm in a few handguns and my Navy lowered H&K positively loves it with five shot groups at 50 averaging around 2-3 inches single and I can usually keep 18 of 20 on a 24" target on auto. It reloads pretty good as well for plinking and is relatively clean and consistant for me. Side note on Wolf 22lr, If you compare the brass, you will find it's manufactured by the same German co. that makes Lapua's 22LR. Good stuff in the wife's 10/22 and wickedly accurate in my High Std. Never used S&B rifle ammo though, so no can comment.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 23:34:47 (ZULU)

Pete L;

Please e-mail me an address so I can send you the '03 part.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 01:54:41 (ZULU)

"Lets all give Bruce a hand. Brother he is what makes America Number One."

I will second THAT shit!

Mike, tell those boys to get me some GOOD APOs when they get there.

brian k. sain
Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 03:50:22 (ZULU)

Fellas, please copy and post this ANYWHERE you think it might get a response. (Positive preferred - only received one hate letter so far).

Biker sites ... I don't give a shiite ... need all the passionate Americans aboard I can get.

ADOPT A SNIPER PROGRAM

In March 2004, a group of US police snipers decided to form a support network to address the needs of US military snipers deployed abroad in the war on terror.

The mission profile of police and military snipers have been found to overlap in the war on terror and the gear and supplies needed to accomplish the missions are very similar.

However, due to the enormity of the US commitment in Iraq and Afghanistan, often times these servicemen go without things they need. Being aware of this and using contacts developed throughout the US police and military communities, the police snipers were able to network with military snipers deployed abroad, obtain their overseas addresses and began sending desperately needed gear and supplies that are specifically tailored to the sniper mission, currently at the forefront of the war on terror.

The entire program is funded by civic donations. Every penny donated will go to a United States military sniper deployed abroad.

Police snipers or anyone wishing to assist the program are encouraged to send donations to www.snipersonline.org (see adopt a sniper program).

Snipersonline is a non-profit organization made up of operational only snipers and an email or hard copy receipt will be issued for all donations.

For further information, please contact Detective Brian K. Sain of the Port Arthur, Texas Police Department at one of the following:

409-983-8643 work

409-726-4037 pager

brianksain@yahoo.com

brian k. sain
Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 03:59:48 (ZULU)

BK,

> "Lets all give Bruce a hand. Brother he is what makes America Number One."

I will second THAT shit! <

I think that one's pretty much unanimous.

jcopeland
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 04:05:21 (ZULU)

Joe.. and i thought you yanks where into all that bear huggin stuff.. ha. next time i'll si