Sniper Country Duty Roster

April 24, 2001 - April 30, 2001

Update for all you closet[sp?] RRRRUUUGEEERRR owners and admirers...

77CR..OAL 35.5", 16.5"bbl, 12.5" LOP...Weight with 2x7 Leopold compact, leather carrying strap and four rounds ammo[.223]is 6.59lbs on the general stores digital produce scale[Where else can you go weigh your guns??]..Initial groups with the horrible factory trigger and bulk, Dillon run, handloads are running right at 1.25"...Timney trigger should be here Wed..;Has to help..Factory pull must be at least 10Lb..

Turns out you can't have enough truck guns, I guess...

15" rifle barrel????I thought 16" was the fed. minimum?????

outa here
Markwell <>
Happier than a clam in .223 central in the Alleghenies and getting the calf stronger!!!, WV, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 01:38:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

500 patches of JB soaked flannel cloth later,
and 500 to go!!

Sheesh, me and my big mouth. I am getting dizzy from looking thru the borescope, eh?? hahah

I've been watching that Rick Jamison pretty close this past year, he's becoming a pain in the butt with his borescope articles. I truly enjoyed his article on firelapping, how he mentions it polishes the throat well and I do give him credit, he lets ya know it's pushing the throat up the bore. By-gawd, pushing lapping compound thru a bore at 2700 fps, just to make yer bore look purty. What a waste of time and barrel!!

He needs to put that borescope away when he's looking thru factory barrels. Can't polish a turd, is what I say, no matter how shiny it is. If you guys have seen the pictures, might be in Shooting Times, and that's what you call sharp corners, don't speak to me. Bottom line, for what a so-called(no flame) experts opinion on a bore thru the borescope compared to a barrelmakers view, well, it's a whole new ball game.


JR <>
Rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 03:53:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Markwell...... Legal Barrel Length? Maybe it's like HE told HER - "It all depends on how you measure it".

Kevin (Andy's Dad)..... You didn't make a mistake going with a 24" barrel on an AR-type .223! I've been shooting one with a 24" Wilson SS 1:9 HB for about a year with great accuracy. I use 52gr.SMK's up to 300yds. and 75gr. Hornady HPBT's for longer distances, RL15, and Win. cases for consistant 5-shot .80MOA! No benchrest tricks, off a Harris Bi-pod, under field conditions, light (steady) breeze. I'm sure that you'll figure it out.

Unertl scopes..... Anyone out there know if the 1&1/4" Unertl Varmint-Target scopes being made today (Mars,PA) are real similar to the ones that have been available for years? How 'bout you, 'lito? I sure hope that they are, 'cause I wanna get one, stick it on a Pre-64 Model 70, and start a 'nostalgia varmint shoot'.

PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 04:05:11 (ZULU) (your host address:


Had one of the "gun" experiences tonight. Stopped by compadre Steve Nelson's to talk rifles and such. Steve is Secretary of the American Custom Guncrafters Guild and my hunting companion. One of the nice things about visiting his shop is all the neat stuff that is there.
He had "casually" laid out my Mexican Mauser action with one of my dummy 6.5 X .284's in the magazine. The SWINE! That set-up is so sexy it'd give any normal man a woody! I already have the same set up in .284 and hardly need another. Still, it's food for thought...

Secondly, a customer sent a Holland and Holland M98 Mauser in for restoration in caliber .275 Rigby! Probably made pre-WWI. How a country that can turn out rifles like that and still be so screwed up I'll never know.

My own RWS brass for my 6.5 X 57 arrived today. After waiting almost 12 weeks. Will load and finally get to shoot my M1903 commercial Mannlicher! OORAH!

Someone had posted about what cartridge to build on...and action. I stump for the small ring Mexican '98. They make a neat rifle when properly set up. My own is surface ground, re-heat treated, trued, has a McFarland 3-panel bolt handle, 3-pos. safety, Blackburn trigger, and Blackburn bottom metal. Barrel is a Kreiger. Scope mounts are custom by Steve Nelson, who did all the metal work. I'm curretnly stocking it in nice English Walnut.

Next choice is a pre-64 M70. Although the Mex is sleeker and a full four ounces lighter!

My Stealth project is on hold. Something I did caused the groups to open to 1". Need to go back to square one on that. I have little doubt it'll come back down to 1/2 inch.

The more I use the .284 class of cartridge the bigger fan I am becoming. That darn 6.5 X .284 in the mex-mauser is perfect for that "medium" length action. Need to find some more actions...Steve has my last one...

All for now. Tomorrow night I'll be doing walnut shavings in the shop!

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 05:10:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

15" Barrels. You're right 16 min unles a SBR. Just measured with a tape and forgot all about the regs. From front of receiver measured 15.

Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 05:18:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Good morning, JR...

Rick Jamison??... HA!, Double HA! (as Pat would say).
Wadda twinky!
All that these "experts" in the "Popular gun press" need to be an expert, is free stuff from the manufactures. He gets a free bore scope to write up an article, and now he's a barrel expert.

Ya' know, it's a friggin' wonderment...

Guys are worried about if their cleaning rod is coated with the "cool plastic of the year"... they clean their cleaning rod BEFORE they clean the barrel, so not a bit of dirt will touch the sacred bore surface... they're worried if the bore solvent is "gentle" to the barrel... terrified that the brass brushes will ruin their barrel... spend $25 bucks to get a plastic bore guide, so the plastic covered cleaning rod won't touch the bore, while they are using the special
plastic brushes (cuz the brass ones are too mean to the bore)...

Then... they take a brass billet that is 8 thou oversize, coat it with grinding paste, and jam it down the barrel at three times the speed of sound, with 50,000 psi of force???... and do it 20 times???

And you want to make a case that shooters are sane ;) ????
Shrinks call it "Anal Rentive Compulsive Syndrom"... everybody else calls it "Nutz!!"

Guys like Rick Jamison keep the barrel makers in business.

"... and as the night began to fall, he checked his kit, slipped into his ghillie suit, and checked his ammo. He slowly began the stalk, with anticipation of the kill. He quietly cut through the chain link fence in his path, and continued the to the target rich area.
As he reached the FFP, he chambered that first round, and set up the bi-pod... all was ready for that first shot!"

"Here kitty, kitty, kitty..."

The CatShooter...(He who stalks the night ;)

Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 11:06:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Its been a while since I have posted here but I am back.

I attended a handgun class at Storm Mountain over the weekend. I had a lot of fun and I learned a lot. I will be going back for more as soon as I can.

Has anyone attended the long range rifle or sniper classes? How were they?


BCR #226 <>
USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 13:21:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Storm Mountain Long Range Rifle I&II

Can't go wrong.
Best money I ever spent.
If you want to do some PT go for Sniper I,II&III.
Don't overlook classes at Badlands in Grandfield, OK.
A great value as well.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 13:42:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Reloading .308 Military Brass.

Anyone done this ?? I noticed that the primer pocket is differend on the military brass. 2 holes on the sides instead of 1 in the center.

Does anyone know if you can get primers that fit ?

Does anyone know if you can get a die with a primer ejecter rod that fits ?

It just seems like a waist to throw this brass away, but it looks like a lot of hassle to reload. I'm leaning towards it not being worth it.

Any info would help.


Bruce <>
Portland, OR, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 15:56:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike: SMTC classes.

I've been to LRR1, LRR2, LRR3(aka Train-up), SS1, SS2, HG2, HG3, CAR1 and a couple of the SS matches. And some of the classes more than once. There all great and worth every penny. They get better everytime I attend that's why I keep coming back every year. Great training and instructors. If you want to learn and have a positive attitude about it, it's a great place to go. And you may even run into some of the crowd that comments on here especially at the matches. It's a sight just to see the latest ghillie fashions and all the sorry looking old SOB's like me after a stalk. You'll love it.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 16:04:58 (ZULU) (your host address:


These are called "Berdan" primed cases. They are NOT normal military cases.
They can not be "deprimed" with a rod in the die... they have to be removed with a special claw on the end of a small crowbar. The primers are literaly ripped out of the case.

It's only worth reloading berdan cases, if you have an expensive rifle that has old brass... like an early english elephant, double rifle...

You can buy primers though they are expensive, and hard to find... but not at all worth can get fired "regular" primed brass so cheap, it's not worth the trouble to mess with them.


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 16:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike - smtc classes:

Good place to get some training... if you go to any of the SS classes... ya might want to do some pt before then and get yer self tuned up.. you'll need the extra strength....
You'll enjoy the classes...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
nokesville, va, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 16:18:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rifle weight...

Why all the concern? Here is what I was(un)fortunate enough to carry with me into Kuwait. Ready?

800 rnds 7.62 linked
300 rnds 5.56 in bandoleers
4 81mm Mortar rounds 3 HE, 1 WP
2 M.O.P.P suits
1 spare barrel for the 60
1 M9 9mm
flack vest
kevlar helmut
6 MREs
M17-A2 gas mask
5 M256 NBC detector kis
xtra boots 1 pair each
3 pair socks
2 sets of BDUs
1 "Rambo III" knife
1 useless bayonet
M65 field jacket with liner
ponch w/liner
1 intermediate sleeping bag
useless shelter half and all the heavy crap that goes with it
and a really bad attitude because the idiots who concocted the gear list weren't anywhere near where we were. Nor had they a clue as to the actual situation we were in.

So, rifle weight is of no real concern to me personally. Mine weighs in at 15 3/4 pounds. I carry (if I had to) 20 rounds precision ammo (I think the term "match" is over used) 5 AP 10 tracer.
I can easisly manage my shorty AR aling with my 1911A1

Don't get me wrong, a lot of weight sucks....big time. you really aren't going to move at blistering speeds anyway. If you are going to move, you will most likely be in a mode of high alert. stopping frequently. I am no professional sniper, although I was on a SRT team as a sniper in my L.E. days. I think most of the guys I was with were wannabe Marines anyway. They were terrible shots and didn't take any of our "training" seriouly. As I think about it now I hope they never get least the way I saw them last.
I met some reall kick butt FBI teams and the ATF had a really crack unit. I dont think unless you were in some sort of infanry moving 20-35km, weight is that much of a big deal to ME anyway. I know this may rub some folks a bit in the wrong direction, yet those who served talk the talk cause we walked the walk...with all due respect of course.
We rehersed several painful times on foot for distances of 10-15 miles in the SAND! The Battalion Commander LtCol Robert Bose jr. said we would use Hummers since 5 if us nearly died from heat injuries. It was cold in January '91 in Saudi Arabia. Just to give you an idea of the physical exersion.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 17:34:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks guys! I really enjoyed the pistol class and I can't wait to try HRP, team tactics and the whole long range rifle and sniper series. Any other recommendations that you can bestow on me? Such as equipment, tricks of the trade, etc.??

Now to get a mildot scope for my PSS.


BCR #226 <>
USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 18:07:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bad Karma,

we had a saying in Arty; if you can't truck it f#$k it! :)

But honestly, I understand what you are saying. A little old Asian guy like me had to hump between 60Lbs to 80Lbs at one time or another. Consider this, I only weighted in at 125Lbs. That truly kicked my ass. Just writing about it brings tears to my eyes and pain to my back and calves. What fond memories Bad Karma.

Jerry Rice's type Rifle:

Many of you have spoken and mentioned Jerry's rifle. I have posted on my website pictures of my rifle that Jerry built for me. Listed below is the link:

Semper Fi
Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 19:26:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


I was speaking with HS Precision today about the lack of Savage compatible stocks in their line up. I agreed to place some feelers and see if in fact the market would justify the effort and start up cost for HS to create a tactical stock for this rifle. Eventually, other types of stock would follow, but for now, the concentration would be on a tactical stock something like the PST12 or PST25 series. What I need from you, if you are interested, is an email stating if you would buy the stock, if available, and which action length you would prefer it in. Also, would you be more likely to buy one with adjustable cheek pieces and lengths of pull or would a fixed stock be preferable? We are thinking that Short Action is the way to start, but the long term plan would be to create a stock for both the 10FP and 110FP.

I do not need any commitments at this time - this is strickly a Fact finding mission for the Sniper Country PX. However, to make this cost effective, HS will need approximately 250 orders pre-placed to proceed. If I can show enough interest, development may proceed sooner than later and if I can actually start to get serious orders, one more details are available, it will HAPPEN!

Please email me at if you are interested. However, only those genuinely serious should contact me. I need to show that there is a real and willing demand for this product. If you are not serious about getting one this year, please do not email me.
Thanks all. Please respond to the xring address as I may not be able to get back to the Roster any time soon.

Scott Powers
Sniper Country PX

Scott <>
PA, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 19:55:44 (ZULU) (your host address:


that cat shooter deal reminds me of a few blow gun attacks we did at the local fishermens wharf in cocoa beach way back when.....

try the garbage bag ghillie version, works great !


torsten <>
germany - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 20:03:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Okay, got caught up on reading the board (was gone camping for a long weekend).

Re the Brady thing.... Not that I 'really' wished anything 'that' bad on her, but why-oh-why couldn't she have gone after tobacco instead? Cigarettes kill a LOT more people than guns.... [Note: I'm not suggesting that she should! Smoke if ya wanna, makes no difference to me, it's your business not mine!)

Bad Karma and Darren:
At the time I was an average-sized guy, so carrying my own gear wasn't too bad... but then when the Plt.Cmdr. says "Here, carry this Mk19 receiver over the next stretch" I had serious thoughts of going UA (not really, but I sure cussed like I was serious).

Children marksmen:
Since you all have brought it up, you've reminded me that I really do need to get my daughter back out shooting again (she wasn't into it when it was cold out... I think the skiff of snow we had last week will be the last of it for the year now).

Okay, gotta get back to work....


Leslie <>
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 20:07:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bad Karma,

I feel your pain with the gear list. I was with WPNS CO 3/1, HMG PLT during the Gulf War. Prior to the ground attack, we were training in Oman and for one of the ops we split up into 4-man teams and humped complete .50 cals (receiver, barrel, tripods.....) for 9 miles on a stretchers. That sucked!! In the sand. That sucked worse!! Along with the fifty on the stretcher, we had our M-16's, standard load of 210 rounds of 5.56mm all 782 gear with additional 2 qt, packs, sleeping bag,(heavy type, one each) flak jackets (heavier type, one each), and 15 rounds of .50 ammo. We made it and racked that night. The next morning, there were a bunch of us that could not get our boots on our feet. It took about half a day for the swelling to go down. Thank GOD the 5-tons came to pick us up.

The MCRESS (??) was easier!!

What unit were you with? Also, your gear list looks pretty standard, but what were you doing carrying all that M-60 ammo AND 5.56mm AND 81mm?

Semper Fi,

Paul <>
VA, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 20:40:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, I finally had the SSG stock warp to the point it touched the bbl and sent shots everywhere but the POA. The forend on these stocks has one little cross rib for stiffening, NFG. I completly filled in the two cavitys with Acraglass gel, and while I was at it bedded the receiver as well. The epoxy stuck quite nicely after roughing up the surface with a little 100 grit and acetone. Problem solved, now shooting under 1/2 min at 600, even better than before.

Notes for other SSG shooters. Remove the trigger group before you bed, I can't see any way to keep the epoxy out otherwise. It's pinned in place with two 1/16" pins that are pretty soft, so use care and work slowly. Be sure to firmly clamp the action to the stock so you get just a "skin" of epoxy. The trigger guard has the magazine latch area built into it, if you build up too much epoxy, you could get feeding problems from the mag setting too low. Either fill the stock screw holes with clay, or coat them with plenty of release agent. Remove the action as soon as the epoxy sets so you can trim the mag well area with a sharp knife.

Well worth the effort!

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it.

Cory Trapp <>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 22:40:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bruce & 'Lito (re: Berdan cases),

The following reloading "tip" is from the old ammo-embargo days in Rhodesia and South Africa, as related to me at the time by Ray Chapman.

If a fellow had so much Berdan primed brass on hand as to make it worth bothering with (especially if he couldn't get boxer-primed brass), another possible way to deprime it is to remove the depriming tool from the resizer, plug the hole, and dump all your empties in a bucket of water. Be sure to scoop the case fairly full of water before you put it in the shell holder. The resizing stroke hydraulically deprimes the case.

This sounds so messy that I never tried it. But it reportedly works with .45 ACP, and it might work with bottlenecked rifle cases, too.


Earl North <>
KC, MO, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 23:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Its ANZAC day downunder when we remember the men & women who went to war to keep our countries free.I for one often wonder if we have learned anything .To the Aussie and Kiwi diggers serving and retired and dead,I salute you.Someone once said dont be sad they died, be happy they lived.amen.
Gavan Willis <>
time to go huntin, downunder, occupied oz - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 23:16:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Exercises such as long marches with extreme loads carried over rough terrain are Gut Checks. The intended purpose is to instill in those participating a sence of pride and aquaint them with their own physical limits.

Conducting Gut Checks which leave a unit combat ineffective in a combat zone is malpractice on the part of the commander. In a combat zone any action which renders a unit or a part of a unit unfit even for a limited time is unconscionable.

By all means train hard but don't intentionally injure your men with a Gut Check today when tomorrow they may need to fight for their lives.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2001 at 23:53:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

The Remmington 700VS with a 26" HB in .223 is topped with a Leup. 6.5x18x40. This rifle has a 1 in 12" twist rate.
Federal Premium 55 grain Balistic Tip is used as a hunting round for 160lb to 200lb animals out to 225 yards. Currently the 52 grain serria BTHP Match is being used out to 300 yards and I have just started to try this one out. This rifle can not stabilize bullet weights from 68 to 80 grains.
Is there any information on the 60 to 62 grainers out of this barrel and do you have any tips or info. on .223 bullet weights up to and past 300 yards which will stabilize in this rifle.
Thank you for any information which you may be able to share.........dave......
David Kohler <>
Batesville, Arkansas, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 00:11:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
Don't listen to Tony Y, He ain't a Geezer!

'Lito, ("He Who Stalks at Night")
Damn it Man! I just thought I was done with my blowing cola on the CRT days, and you did it to me again - RFLMAO

My 10 cents
Berdan case depriming can also be done with Mil Spec water, a hammer, fitted wood dowel, and a shellholder mounted in a base of some kind. Wet - Messy - and it gets the jobs done.
Hmmmm might just be a new fetish thing for those hard core scope ring lappers.........??

Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 01:31:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello folks,


Double HA!


HS would DEFINITELY need some response before tackling the Savage stocks. We gotta know if it's gonna pay to design a bedding block, order the material, build the molds and mandrels, yadda yadda. So if you guys want one, call HS, call Scott, have your friends and family call, tie up the phone lines. It works, believe me. Why do you think Remington re-introduced the XP?


JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 02:00:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


Has anyone tried the Winchester .300 WSM? If so how does it print? What exactly is a .460 Rowland? I hope it isn't a .451 Detonics revisited.
A friend of mine suggested the primed F.N. berdan primed brass for making precision rounds for my HK. Anyone got a good source to obtain them?

Many thanks.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 03:09:04 (ZULU) (your host address:


I was with 2/3 Wpns Co 81's Plt. The M60 saga. Well it started out like this. The B.C. told us we needed to provide our own security. No biggie we had 89 people in out platoon including the squids. Anyway. I sarted with a S.A.W. with a bunch of rounds, it got dropped to Fox Co. So I ended up swapping weapons with a grunt from Fox. He was the only one smiling about the deal.
I gave him the drums for it and all. The 16 rounds were the brain child of my platoon commander. He was a "Gunner" a CWO3. Wierd eh? He was a rusty, crusty, flash back havin' Nam guy who we were given when our Lt moved to Battalion.
The 81 rounds. We were expecting to be broken off and attatched to line companys for extra firepower. So we had four rounds in out packs.
I feel bad for the FDC pimps who humped the illumination rounds along with the squids. I think logic took a back seat. We had the worst command I have ever seen. 2 out of the three SNCOs barely spoke english. The other was a total pu@!y.
So there I was with all this crap. I weighed about 140 pounds. I think all my shi* weighed that by itself. We were joking about hijacking camels.

Ghillie suits,

I got one for MOUT. Old newspapers and trash bags..ha! ha!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 03:25:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys, i just bought a 6.5x55 swedish mauser. God i love this thing. At 100 yards im getting .5 inches, and thats with PMC!! It is an old m96. I love it. Tell me, how does it seem to fair at longer ranges? How do you like it? I bought it for 120 dollars with a 3-9 power variable scope and a turned down bolt. It shoots like a champ, do you think it can hold its own agaist an 06' or .308? I hear that the Swedes used the old M/96 B (what i have) Carl Gustav rifles as the M41b with slide mounted 4x AJAX scope and it was better than the K98 and better than the M1.... any thoughts?

chris <>
Kent, wa, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 04:13:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bad Karma.......FN military brass (Berdan primed) go to, I got some last winter - 3.6K @ $234.00 ppd!
Good stuff, you need to go a bit light with the powder charge as these cases are military, thus a little less internal capacity.

Small-Ring Mexican Mausers.... OK Wes, now I know why there ain't hardly any of these neat military collectibles around anymore - you and your buddies are SPORTERIZING them;-0. Why dontcha' stick to the Remington 700's, they're kinda like cockroaches, there's so many that there'll even be plenty left after a nuclear holocaust;-)))

No cats to kill, the 'yotes ate them all. But there's PLENTY of 'yotes

PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 04:24:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys,
I just inherited a Remington Sendero in .300 WinMag and was wondering if it would be a big problem if I got 2 inches cut off the barrel to make the thing a little less bulky when carrying it. Would velocity be altered too much? What about recoil? Any help would be appreciated.
Marc Ingram <>
Hinesville, GA, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 04:30:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ahh, my own username and password. Gives me that warm fuzzy feeling of being part of something .... anything!

I have a question for you all. I'm preparing a lecture on sniping and I am looking for multimedia movie-files containing footage of actual sniper engagements. I have the one of the Guatemalan (?) boy getting shot and the one with the bankrobber getting shot outside the bank while using a victim as shield. If I recall correctly, this footage involved 2 shots sent into a wall by the police sniper before the fatal shot, but that part has been clipped. If anyone has any more or knows where to find it on the Net, please contact me.

THIS IS NOT FOR SOME KIND OF SICK REASON, IT'S FOR TRAINING! (Hmm, somehow I feel that that may be a reason for you to start spamming me. ...)

I'm also wondering whether anyone knows more of the tale of USMC Sgt. Terry, who engaged 3 Iraqi APC's during Operation Desert Storm, using an M82A1 and Raufoss ammo. The story I heard was that he scored 2 hits on the lead vehicle at 1200 yards, setting it ablaze, upon which the other two vehicles surrendered. If anyone has more info and/or a picture of Sgt. Terry I'd appreciate it!

Thanks for you time!

Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 10:55:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

PeteR: Wet - Messy - hard core lappers - Sheep --- Hmmmmmm you can come to my hide anytime....

Kevin: Gut Checks ? If it hurts, do it some more. Then you won't notice the hurt. If you still feel the hurt then you didn't do it hard enough. Do it some more... Hoooahhh !!!
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 14:21:45 (ZULU) (your host address:


I guess I'm just getting old.
I can't imagine going to Camp McKall or Harmony Church now.

Gut Checks are good "forging tools" & "LOM sifters" but should only be used when there is plenty of time for the troops to heal up before deployment to a live fire/full contact kind of environment.

I wonder how Ranger School Graduates would score on the APFT on the day of graduation, pretty poorly I suspect.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 14:48:44 (ZULU) (your host address:


Hmmm, seems Alan has take me to task for sporterizing Hispanic(Mexican) small ring mausers. NOT GUILTY! It was already done. Re-heat treated and surface ground by Tom Burgess. Jim Coffin, ACGG, member had a number of them and felt he had "to many". I was able to get two of them for the princely sum of $140.00 each.

Eat your heart out!

Checking today to see if he has more!

Anyone for a small ring Mexican Mannlicher style rifle in 6.5 X .284...? ;-)

Wade on up...we gots kitty's AND 'yotes!

(The Butcher/Enabler)
Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 15:03:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello guys-

I am looking for some info on the new 300WSM round, pros/cons in using this in a sniper rifle. I was thinking about buying a CZ550 reciever and building a rifle based on this round.

Brian <>
USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 15:31:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin (Andy's Dad) - Driving the bod for a couple days is a lot different than driving it for two months. A nasty ruck march - sleep dep - ATC etc. (basically getting the cock) for a couple days straight won't kill you - you should be able to fight after a 24hr screw job - but prolonged cock jobs will put the troops into the hurt locker. We used to do the 32km then roll into our PWT most with no ill effects cept the Sick, lame, and lazy

900m Range still snowed in - so Off to Lewis to shoot service rifle this weekend.

Kevin of the GWN <>
Canada - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 15:34:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi was wondering if anybody could tell me what a .338 lapua is? wise? some people say it is just a .338 378? it must have started out to be a wild cat at one time? also if it is like a .338 378 is the lapua better or how does it compare? looking for a long range gun! thinking about buying McMillans tactical in .338 lapua.
right now I have a stock Rem 700 in 300 Win Mag I just want something that reaches a bit further :-) Sorry for all the ??'s at once. Thanks Keith.
keith collinsworth <>
santa rosa , ca, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 18:16:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hi just wondering if somebody could tell me what a .338 lapua is ? ..
case wise? I was told that it is basicly a .338 378? I if it is pretty close to the same as a 338 378 is the lapua better or how does it compare? right now I have a stock Rem 700 in 300 Win mag that I bought to build on, but I'm thinking about just buying Mcmillans tactical in .338 lapua! does anybody have any experience with this rifle? is it a good choice? also one more ? does anybody know what size barell comes on the .338 Mcmillan tac? I just want something that reaches a bit further :-) Thanks Keith.

keith collinsworth <>
santa rosa, ca, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 18:27:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ahhhh, to be 20 again...

You guys have to take a look at this article I just posted

Marius <>
RSA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 21:56:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am interested in the .284 family of cartridges for 300m to 1000yrd target shooting. Which do you guys think would be better: 7mm-08, .284 WIN, or .280 REM.

Shoot Straight,

Levi <>
Tampa, FL, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2001 at 23:01:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi gang. Have a bedding question for you all. I am thinking that if I have a M70 short action bedded in a stock (which I do) and I replace it with a different M70 short action (so I can rebarrel with no loss of trigger time) that I would have to rebed it but since I have "Zero" experience in that area I thought I would seek the experts advice. Does it need to be rebedded again? Your thoughts are greatly apreciated.

John McGrath <>
Springfield, Missouri, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 00:02:50 (ZULU) (your host address:


You wanted to know the best cartidge for 300 to 1,000 yard target shooting. The 7/08, .284, or 280 Remington.

The answer is NONE OF THE ABOVE! The cartidge I recommend, in this class, is not a 7MM at all, but the 6.5 X .284. It will shoot far better than any of the 7MM's. In the .308 case the 6.5/O8 is a good choice. Some folks are going with the 6.5/06, but there is no factory brass available. You can neck up 25/06

The 6.5 X .284 can do what the .300 Winch mag does with .308 level recoil and brass is now factory supported. SWEET!

Kind Regards,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 02:10:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


Your comments were appreciated and noted, but I have two problems with the cartridges you suggested. First, I really had my hart set on the .284's because of the outstanding bullet selection. Second, I have absolutely no reloading data on the 6.5x.284 or the 6.5-08, and my manuals are brand new! So I guess what I wanted to know was should I go with the LA 06 length, the SA .308 Length, or the SA rebated cartridge. I have never had any experience with a rebated base. Do they preform as well as rimless? Do they require any special consideration while, say, sizing or the like?

Good Shooting,


P.S.-- Just to irritate everyone, I will be building the rifle on a rebarreled, rechambered Ruger M77. :p
Levi <>
Tampa, FL, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 08:44:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tool Time Country -

Need to pick up an in/lb torque wrench for removing and reinstalling the action bolts on the Remy.

Brownells sell a compact T-handle unit for ~$75 that is preset for a specific load, say 65 in/lb. They also sell an adjustable in/lb unit that is about half the size of what Sears carries for ~$150.

Obviously, the T-handle unit is a no-brainer - you just use it. Are the adjustable units accurate enough to warrant spending the extra monies? I'll assume I can find some other uses for an adjustable unit, like scope rings and bases.

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 11:06:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Live and Learn

I got my .223 headspace gage from Dillon yesterday.

When I got home I checked some of the ammunition that I have loaded and discoverd that it is all .005" under the low limit for shoulder length. I checked the gage with factory ammo and it checks out.

Needless to say I'm dumbfounded.

I've been reloading for the .223 since 1975 and I just now learn about checking this dimension. I always figured that the resizing dies (Redding) would control this feature so I never gave it any thought.

To put salt in the wound, I spent the winter preparing a gallon jar full of brass which is all now junk. I will scrap the whole works and replace it with new Winchester cases.

I don't have a gage for my .308 but I will get one soon. This might prove to be a very expensive lesson to learn.

The bright side of this exercise is that this new knowledge might help me solve the accuracy problems with my Armalite. I hope the guys in Geneseo aren't reading this board because I just sent the upper back to them with instructions to fix it.

I guess the guy at Dillon was right. I've been lucky all these years.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 11:30:38 (ZULU) (your host address:


Almost more like "Learn and Live", isn't it? Guess I'll have to look at getting one of these too - peteR, you reading this? When's your folks coming over again?

But first of all I have to get back behind the trigger a bit. Been far too long :-( ...

Now if I can just teach my brother-in-law to shoot 5-shot groups to see if a rifle is fine, or he/anybody else can shoot, instead of 2-shot groups. I shoot bad groups, one or two fliers, and he shoots two close shots and declares "rifle's fine". Pisses me off, even though I know I DO shoot extremely bad at this stage. Not close to MOA even. BIG BIG :-(

Marius <>
RSA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 11:46:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin (Andy's Dad),

Be interesting to see how Armalite "fixes" your problem or what they return to you!

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 12:03:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


Cat Shooter? People come out here in the rural area, and drop off their kitty thinking it will have a good home. I have taken some of them to a bud that has a dairy farm, but most get eaten by the coyotes, or wind up as road kill.
I did find out that I could use cat food as bait for the 'yotes. Sometimes the cats would gather for a meal so the 'yotes would come a lookin for cat steaks!
Trash Bag Ghillie? HA! You guys kill me!

Best Regards,

Bill B <>
cat country, ky, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 12:38:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

John McGrath, (ref. Mod70 bedding questions)


If your bedding is a full blown pillar job or fairly extensive glass/SteelBed layer, the bedding is not interchangeable with other receivers in my opinion.

Properly done, a good, stress free bedding job (pillar or not) is unique to the receiver it was bedded to. Ditto for the barrel if you layed in a USMC style barrel pad in front of the recoil lug.

You must remember that EVERY receiver is different. Rem, Win, Ruger and any other production action is included in this statement. Slight surface blems, miniscule differences in action screw hole spacing and angle compared to the receiver face/recoil lug, and slight dimensional differences around the tang and curves where the receiver was finished up at a buffer are the rule. On Win 70s, even the integral recoil lug is unique from action to action. This all means that every receiver is like a fingerprint, it is a unique individual.

Some methods like H-S's aluminum block work OK because, even though they only touch each receiver in a few spots, the contact points on the aluminum block don't change with environmental variations. But when you pull your receiver from a new bedding job, the surface of that bedding reflects (at least it should) a perfect mirror image of 100% of the contact surface of your receiver. This custom fit is part of what constitutes a proper, stress free, stable, and durable bedding job. Especially flat bottom actions like Win 70s should never swap bedded stocks because the 90 degree corners and hard angles associated with the bottom are absolutely non forgiving.

Also remember to make sure your stock/action screws float through the stock and don't touch on the sides. Only the back of your recoil lug should take the shock. Although I've seen some great shooters done otherwise, I also like to make sure the bottom, sides and front of the recoil lug is cleared.

Hope this give you one more response to your question. I don't consider myself an "expert" but I have had great results with my pillar jobs. After seeing some rifles come back in for their 3rd or 4th barrels with my original bedding looking in excellent health, I feel that I have at least one method that is working. I would encourage you to get feedback from as many riflesmith types (hobby or full time) and come to your own composite/consensus. Best of luck with your project.

No Wind,
Terry Cross

Terry Cross / KMW <>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 13:10:49 (ZULU) (your host address:


Saw an ad somewhere recently for a machined steel AR lower. Sadly, I'm suffering from a [hopefully] temporary case of CRS. Could someone please let me know the name of the company that is making these? Also, any information on the quality of these lowers is much appreciated.

Semper Fi,

Paul <>
Concrete Jungle, VA, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 13:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Before I tossed all the brass I would at least try it. I had some 308 brass that I had bought at a gun show and when I sized it in a regular full length die the bolt still closed very hard. I used my Dillon die to size it down further so the bolt would close with no problems.
Like you, I had undersized it without realizing it and when I fired it I noticed that the primers were "Flat" and I knew the load was not to hot and what it was, was the case was just undersized and I was getting a lot expansion.
After the initial firing they were fine. I am sure the case life may have been shortened by afiring or two but the brass was fine after that. I fired them in a match chamber though so it would have been tighter than a factory chamber. .005 under dosen't sound that bad.

Listen to Wes, the 6.5x308 is the same as the 260Rem and there is a lot of data on it in your manual. If your dead set on the 7MM family go with the 7MM-08 its accurate and a nice cartirdge to shoot as far as recoil. Its on the weak side for 1000yds though. I know some of the guys are using the 280IMP and they shoot very well and it is a great long range deer round but I don't know how well it would do at 1000yd shooting.
You can't go wrong with a 6.5x284 and the rebated rim is no problem in feeding or shooting. There is a lot of load data available on it too. Hell Wes and I could give you enough to keep you busy for a month or two. They are deadly accurate and flat shooting and rule the 1000yd shooting game.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 13:28:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys been gone this week teaching pistol.

On AR Steel Lowers. DPMS makes them but if you want one you will be spending some time making it work. Not a drop in by far. They leave so much slag and crap you need to spend a few hours making things fit. then why get steel? It is heavier and has no real increase in performance other than the weight/balance for High power shooting.

6.5x284, you are making my head hurt. Beating me into thinking about anew caliber to play with.

On 338 Lapua versus 338/378 W. This depends on what you want to do. The 338/378 has more case capacity but the Lapua is in my opinion the way to go. You can launch a 300 grainer out of the Lapua at 2800-2850fps and factory ammo is available from BlackHills. The 338/378 brass or ammo will cost you a fortune and then you have to laod it. 338/378 only comes with hunting bullets no match kings.

On 338 Lapua rifles. George Gardner can build one on a Remington 700 action that will knock your socks off and not cost 5000.00. Look into that. 816-221-1844.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 14:12:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone have any experience with the Chalker sling? It is basically a harness, and you attach the sling to the middle of your chest. I'd like to hear opinions about the sling. Please e-mail me directly, as I don't get to browse the board every day. Thanks.

B. Melick <>
Dallas, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 14:48:41 (ZULU) (your host address:


Undude, I would NEVER coerce someone of your talents into playing with a new caliber (6.5 X .284) just because it makes perfect sense...;-)

Levi, Don't worry about the rebated rim on the case. You need load data, both myself and Pat can supply. If you don't have any.

You mentioned selection of bullets in 7MM. For accuracy sake there are only a few. Sierra only catalogs the 168 gr. Match King. Others have similar offerings. If you're gonna do that push a 175 grainer out of a .308, smile and be happy.

You both owe it to yourself to try the 6.5 X .284. If you want extended barrel life the 6.5/O8 / .260 Rem is a good choice. Remember, I have all Boots Obermeyer's data for that one.

By the way, don't get to hung up on the "perfect caliber". After all, it is the man, not the rifle, that makes the difference.

Semper Fi,

(The .308 and 6.5 X .284 guy)

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 16:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

To All:
Concerning in/lbs Torque wrenches; I bought mine from SEARS for about $75.00 U.S. it is adjustable, and I don't know what I would do without it! I use it for Action Screws, Scope ring screws, Mounting screws, as well as a host of Shop and some light automotive uses (mine came with an in/lbs to ft/lbs conversion chart)!
Since I started using it I have not stripped any screws, or had any problems with them backing out, and because every thing is adjusted properly, Group size dropped.
I look back at it now and think of all the times I could have saved time, Expense, and headaches in the past.
I carry mine in my range bag in a protective case at all times. I can't tell you how many times it has come in handy in helping a fellow shooter.
Hans <>
USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 16:31:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
Did anyone see Trigger50s write up of the 408 CheyTac, It's very intresting !
Here is a link

Jeff <>
Wixom, MI, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 17:16:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin (if I remember correctly), stated his brass was .005 UNDER the minimum,,This would roughly put his at .009.........
Way too much........
I would definitely dump it, if this is the case.

Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 17:23:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm going to have to come to the defense of the 7-08. I have one and it works just fine, better than the 308 IMO. The only advantage of the 308 is factory ammo availability. The 6.5-08(260Rem) is better than the 7-08 only if you limit yourself to Sierra bullets. The 142(6.5) Sierra is an excellent bullet, and they basically copied a VLD design from one of these custom bullet makers(was some Italian sounding name from the north east IIRC). It's a great bullet. The 7mm bullets from Sierra have not had the same good fortune. Their 168 is the ballistic equivelent of a brick if you go by their posted BC. I believe(but don't have the equipment or math skills to prove) that the actual BC is much higher than what they claim, but I no longer care since I have switched to 162gn A-maxes and 168 JLK's. Both of these bullets have very high(0.625 listed) BC's and their performance seems to bear this out(9.0 minutes flatter than 308/175's at 1000yds) So you can make the 7-08 work just fine at 1000. That said, I'd go with the 6.5-284 if starting all over from scratch for a dedicated LR gun. I don't know if it has enough barrel life for a GP sniper rifle, but that doesn't worry me too much since I'm not reliant upon the USMC RTE armorers and the USMC's shipping procedures for my personal guns. The 6.5-08 is a good round also. It seems as if the 280 would be even better than the 7-08 due to the ability to pick up 100-150fps, but I haven't tried it, so I won't say. You would be limited to a standard length action though. Some people don't care for that. Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 17:24:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks Hogs!!!

I finally got my “Stealth” together. Winchester Stealth in 308, Leupold Vari-X III LRM3, Badger one piece tapered base, Badger rings, Harris BR-M bipod complete with Pod-Lod from Terry Cross and Shear-Loc Knob on the mount screw, an Undude Sling and a Starlight case to transport. Very nice beginner kit and probably all the weapon I will ever need, although it would be awful nice to someday patch one of those Rice, Gardner class weapons. I would like to thank all who were patient enough to answer my newbie questions and to all who have contributed to the archives where I found some of the information to complete my project. The orange targets in this photo are typical 200 yd groups and the two targets below the barrel are atypical 100 yd targets(not bad for factory rifle and a rookie even though they are only 3 rounds). I thought I would throw in the “70 Series” for the heck of it. If you look carefully in the following photo you will see the Shear-Loc Knob on the mounting screw for the bipod. Anybody interested in acquiring a couple of these knobs, free of charge of course, e-mail me for details. Medulla762 out

medulla762 <>
In The Land Of Stealth, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 18:36:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey medulla...
The photo links won't let us bumz in :(((

Kevin and Two Shoes...

SAAMI .223 aim Max chamber is 1.4736"
SAAMI .223 aim Min case is 1.4596"
That means max aim headspace is .014"

Actual production is even looser...

Go ahead and shoot the stuff...
Put a tiny bit of light gun oil on every other case, and all your cases will fill the chamber, and give you 0.000" headspace next time around, with no case stretch.

And for all you wannabee's that are dying to yell "Bolt thrust"... don't even bother, unless you want to defend your statements with real en-ga-neer-ing stuff... not touchie crap from some gun rag.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 19:12:10 (ZULU) (your host address:


I agree. If the "nut behind the butt" is unable to preform, no rifle/cartridge combo in the world is gonna help, but haveing said that, after a certin skill level is reached, your equipment can make a difference. I am not saying I am there by any means. I simply don't have the trigger time. I do ok though. I recently bought a 700 VS SF .223. While breaking it in, I shot a 1.2 10 shot group at 100 yrds, off sand bags, with a 7lb trigger pull, a 3.5-10x50 Leupy VX3 hunting scope, and "el cheapo" American Eagle factory ammo. I might add that 9 of those were grouped at .9". I thought this was pretty good considering the circumstances. I anticipate much inprovement on this with hand loads, trigger adjustment, and a stronger scope.

As far as the .284's go, This is just for personal enjoyment. If it does weel enough, then it might compete in the longer range stuff, as I will probably use the 700 @100-200yrds.


Levi <>
Tampa, FL, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 19:14:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry folks. I am computer ignorant and I have no idea why the links don't get you there(they work between pc's in my building)! The album should be open for the public to view. Copy and paste this link If this does not work I guess I could e-mail photos to those who are interested. I'm open for suggestions! medulla762 out
medulla762 <>
Splendora, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 19:48:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone know if SWFA still has a specials page for Sniper Country patrons? I used to have the url, but I lost it. If the page still exists it may be a good one to add to the links page. If anyone still has the url pleas e-mail it to me or post it here for all to use.

Thanks in advance,

Chad <>
OKC, OK, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 20:05:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Medulla762 , I was able to check out your pictures on Yahoo. It looks like you have put together a fine rifle. I was kind of partial to little Dee myself.

drmarc <>
HillBilly, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 20:40:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt thrust, and ch.....nah!!!!!,,,won't go there.(;

as usual I think in terms of accuracy, and always .308 first.
Any case with a -6 or more...I don't shoot........accuracy reasons, and I (me personally), think it weakens the case, and will cause case head separation much quicker than cases set @ -.004 or less.

But, to each his own.........right or wrong, this is my way of doing it.

Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 23:19:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two Shoes...

ANY time you fire a full power load in a rifle, with a new case, there IS some headspace...
It might be .005", and it might be .025".

If the chamber and case are dry, the case will expand, grab the walls, then the pressure will force (shove) the case head against the bolt face, stretching the case, and weakening it in front of the web.
If the chamber walls are wet with oil or bore cleaner (very common)... or the cases are deliberately lightly oiled, the case can't grab the chamber walls, so instead of stretching at the wab as the head goes back, the whole case goes back... fills out the chamber, and is now a perfect fit.

I lightly oil all the new cases I shoot in match guns for their first firing.

If you don't shoot cases with more than .004" bolt to head clearence, you must throw out a lot of brass...
I'll send you my address ;)))


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 26, 2001 at 23:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys, here is a report that I wrote for T.H.E.I.S. concerning a test shoot that I was involved in at Salt Creek Flats, Idaho. It is a test of the .408 CheyTac built on the Windrunner chassis scaled down for the .408 cartridge. Present were Warren Jensen of Lost River Ballistic Technologies (maker of the bullet and ammunition) and Willi Wordman (chief engineer on the .408 project). Pics are being sent to Ken to post concerning the gun and targets.

This writeup has been made available on the snipercountry website. Click here

Trigger50 <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 00:18:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Follow up for you closet Ruger fans and admirers on the new 77CR..

Went up to the bench today to shoot some groups having installed the Timney trigger in the new truck gun..

Shooting my bulk .223 handloads[Dillon 550 loaded] of 55 gr. ballistic tips, 26 gr. Win 748, win. primers, and assorted Fed. and Win. cases, I got an average group size[@ 100yds.] Of .562 for three three shot groups. Being a light sporter, I let it cool between groups completely to replicate field use..Not being a big Ruger fan, I'm pretty pleased with this performance from a 6 1/2lb. rifle,
especially with the 2-7 compact scope and my bulk reloads[ which by the way, shoot sub MOA in several other .223 rifles around the place]..Aint it a pisser when a $386 rifle out shoots your Kimber 84.........

Loopy compact spotting scope.....Williams Shooting supply[Quincy, Ill.] has both the 20 and25x in stock still..$250+ for the 20s and the 25s are in the 4s...

outa here
Markwell <>
Sittin' pretty intruck gun city in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 00:32:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yes sir I unnerstan all that........

I told you before, I am somewhat anal, on the issue of reloading(((:

And, I don't throw any away I START with, the problems come from incorrect sizing die set up, and or mixed lots of brass...

Where the HS, is ALWAYS different.

In an earlier post, I spoke to this issue...inconsistency, is what you get shooting some, with -.001, and some -.006, even if you didn't, I would still do what I do.

Old habits die hard.

I am not gonna even pretend to try to tell YOU about reloading, all I'm saying is what I do.

Your deal with the oil, is a neat way to do it, it's just not my way to do it.....
Like I said, to each his own........if it works for you, and my way works for me..that's all that matters.

Will send you any I don't want(((:

Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 00:36:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gents, I know this is a faux pax or whatever but I need to get this word out quick on some things for sale that I picked up on today.

Andy Weber of Armamanet Technology is getting some WWII Russian issue mosin nagants (shit I think I screwed the spelling!, anyway) with PU scopes. These will probably go fast but I think he is asking $600.00 each.

Andy also has some Mike Rock M24 barrels (M24 taper/twist) for $275 plus shipping. Contact Andy through

I also have been asked to sell the following domain names for someone.


Contact me off site for the domain names.

SOrry to conduct emporium business here but I thought you rosterfarians might be interested.

Gooch <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 01:55:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

In search of the elusive(Sp?) Win Stealth in 308?

I tried to order a stealth Tuesday and ran into some problems locating a rifle in stock.(Big Suprise) After about 10 minutes on the phone with Sherry at Winchester today I found three places that received shipments of more than one rifle from the last batch.

Bangers in AL. (205)324-8915
Kamfour in Mass. (413)568-3371
Sport Supply in LA. (318) 797-4848

Don't know if any of them still have any 308 in stock, [GOT MINE :-))) sorry for the gloat], but Sherry said the next shipment due to be warehoused is in early June.

Sorry for the long post. Thank you all for your help.

Chris "Fatboy" <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 02:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hogs -

I snagged Dean's .408 cheyenne article and published on the snipercountry site. If you scroll up - I replace it with a link to the article.

Either click there or click on my name below to see his writeup.
I don't want to hear no gripin' about text colors, etc... I aint no web publisher....

Charles... you aint never around when I need some publishin' done....

Ken :)

ken hunter <>
happy new winchester m70 ville, Va, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 02:10:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Keith real quick a .338 lapua is a 416 rigby necked down to .338 caliber.
Jason Carter <>
Sharpsville , In, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 02:15:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey Keith a .338 Lapua is a .416 Rigby necked down to .338! the .338/378 is a freakin big boy gun! that Mr. Weatherby; always trying to one up the competition! as far as factory ammo you CAN get .338/378 ammo from Weatherby but it is expensive as a 1000 yrd gun it would kick seirous butt only like i said $$$$$$$$$$$x10
there is one for sale at the Dundee michigan Cabelas store has a mcmilliln benchrest stock (red) and 2 barrels for the .30/378 and the .338/378 price on it is somewhere around 7-9k pretty steep for my small Verizon budget i think its a Hall action too

and as far as felinus domesticus goes . . . best target god ever made and tastes like chicken!
Jason Carter <>
Sharpsville, Indiana, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 02:34:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello hogs, here's a little humor fer y'all.
This is my tracking results for some goodies I have coming from Midway and supposed to be delivered yesterday:

Apr 26, 2001 11:48 P.M. COLUMBIA, MO, US IN TRANSIT TO
Apr 25, 2001 5:33 P.M. CACH, IL, US LOCATION SCAN
Apr 24, 2001 11:39 P.M. EARTH CITY, MO, US ARRIVAL SCAN

Now I understand the "oops" comments! The best part is, I called 1-800-PICK-UPS to find out what the problem was, and the woman told me, get this, and I quote:
(Begin irritated and pedantic tone of voice)
"Sir, just because it is going back toward Missouri, doesn't mean it is going back toward the shipper. See, it is still coming toward you. It is just the route involved. It is still coming toward you, there is no problem, and delivery is scheduled for April 30."

I am in Wisconsin, and a truck runs nightly from Cach, IL right to my town!!!

I told the Midway rep...I'm just going to forget I ever ordered anything, and when it quits going in circles and does eventually show up, it will be like "wow, cool man!!".

'Lito that die is in that package, whenever it gets here...I will let you know. Thanks for the assistance. Lot's of comments lately on reloading...been eatin' it up. I quit toyin' with the .308 loads for the moment and just rebuilt my loading bench/area.
I may get back at it today.

Everybody take care....

Geoff M <>
PO'd in, Wisconsin, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 07:06:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tee Hee.... well Ken I am right here! just toss me an email whenever ya need it and as long as ya give me the keys to that part of the site maybe I could help..... Of course that woudl have to come in between a few others like: Nor-Cal Precision, Tactical Intervention Specialists,, Precise Auto, Maximum Kids, Liberty Baptist Church, The IAWL Webring, and of course My M1 Garand Site... not to mention 2 others I have in the works.. one I am actively building now for a smallish company that builds 45's and the other a contract that they are gonna fly us out to talk about it in June.

Seriously though, if you really DO get in a bind just ask, I will be happy to do what I can.

Charles - Overworked And Under Trigger Timed <>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 09:06:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Someone was asking about the .300 Winchester Short Magnum. There's an article on this cart. in the May 2001 American Rifleman. Have not read the details but the performance (vel, energy and traj.) are almost identical to the .300 Win Mag. Shorter fatter case, better shoulder and NO BELT. Regular action length, magnum bolt face. Looks good at first glance.

Hope this helps whoever was looking. Krowbar
Chapel Hill, NC, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 10:53:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

M118LR Load Specifications

In a past post someone asked me about Reloder 15 in military match case data because I was using Federal brass. I've been meaning to run the loads but haven't got around to it, long story. However I did run across this piece of information this morning:

Alliant's responce....(Specs for M118LR)

Posted By: Milkman 
Date: Friday, 27 April 2001, at 5:21 a.m.

In Response To: Great Info! thanks (ntxt) (Milkman)

I email Alliant an dasked them , Got this back . The military round uses 44.3 grs of RL 15 with a 175 gr bullet. This load is a bit hot and is higher than what Sierra recommends. I strongly suggest that you start with about 40 grs and work your way up from there. Watch the pressure signs as you go. Thanks for your interest in our powder and let me know if you have any additional questions. Have a nice day.

Ben Amonette

It was on this page

As alway, use with caution and enjoy!

Byron <>
CA, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 14:57:29 (ZULU) (your host address:


Spent last evening with a couple LE friends on the range. They had purchased Romanian SAR-2's in 5.45 X 39, Falcon optical sights and a case of ammo for about 5 c-notes. After sighting in etc., we proceeded to "play". For a fun "toy", these things ROCK! Was able to get about 75% hits on bowling pins at 150 yards with them. Think there is one in my future!

On to SMG work. The guys brought their Uzi's. Me, my supressed Swedish "K". Next time I'll bring my Uzi for the photo op. Three KEWL dudes in sun glasses with uzi's. Anyone that thinks open bolt guns can't compete with MP5's ought to see us working. We did extensive testing and in normal CQB ranges the open bolt guns are every bit as effective as the closed bolt MP5. Although it ain't as "swat cool". I actually prefer my "K" or Uzi. Besides you want to shoot the shit out of a gun that's gone to $10K in value?

Lastly, humorous anecdote: DO NOT accidently mix you Wilson .45 Officer Model magazines with your full size brethren. Guaranteed, no matter how many "tap, rack, bangs" you try to do nothing will least until the little light comes on! Well, it was good for a laugh, but seriously could get someone killed in real life. Checked ALL my mags and segretated any non-full length .45 magazines.

Going on day 3 of being gainfully unemployed...and loving it!

Down side, of all this, is that wife is expanding the "honey do" list as I now have "time".

Interviews start next week. PTUII!

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 15:18:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Remington 700 Police DM. It has been modified some by AWC. I love this rifle but I want to change the stock. Any recommendations? I have seen that Accuracy International is offering their skeletonized sniper stock for the Remington action now. Any input on this stock?

Secondly, I have a Leupold 8.5-25 VariX III LR scope. It currently has a target dot reticle. I contacted Leupold to ask about putting a mildot in it. The guy at Leupold I spoke with recommended that I use a 10x mildot reticule in the scope and he muttered something turning the power all the way up and multiplying something by 2.5 to get the range. Unfortunately I didn't get the whole sentence and missed the reference. Any help on this?

Lastly, refering to the scope, any input on changing the reticule and using the system he recommended?

Thanks for all of the help!

BCR #226 <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 16:55:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Fellow shooters: Here is a very interesing site for those of

you interested in Ballistics.Some of the math has given me a

headache though.Laptops in the field ? What next ?? How bullets fly !

Steve from Joisey.
Steve Dzupin <DZUPPI@AOL.COM>
Exit #153, New Joisey, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 17:21:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yeah, send the scope to Premier Reticles....Dick will do the mil dot change,and also set the power ring for the proper 1 mil spacing.

Also, he can install MK4 dials, and you will be good to go.....

Cost, $65.00 for the MK4 dials Ele & Win, and $26.00 for the mil of the power ring spacing, mil dot installation, around $130.00.............specify USMC dot or Army style......

Two Shoes
Terry <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 18:11:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

My .260 AR10 project has yet to deliver the kind of performance I'm hoping for... my latest theory is that the cheapo remington brass I am using is to blame... anyone have a better idea, perhaps forming brass?
Jim Mitchell <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 18:26:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gents... I know this has probably been answered on numerous occasions, but what is the muzzle diameter of the barrel on the Marine sniper rifles?? What is the commercial equivalent contour for the various mfrs? Thanks for the info.

Gettn'closer to beer:30 in No-VA!!!

Semper Fi,

Paul <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 19:15:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

neck down some 308 Lapua brass start with a 7MM-08 die and then go to the 260. You can do it all in one step but it makes the necks crooked. I have had great luck running them into the 7MM neck die first. This brass made a lot of difference in my 260.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 19:30:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

After this morn I'm considering starting a TV show called; "The Tactical Landscaper or somesuch...

Didn't realize what I was saying when I said I was "gainfully unemployed". Wife, however, took it to heart. Which brings me to the first of my revolations...

Howe's Postulate #1: Your "honey do" list will increase exponentially in proportion the the amount of free time "she who must be obeyed" thinks you have!

Insult to injury: Loaded my S-10 truck up with edging brick, potting soils, plants, etc. Youngster in low rider truck goes by, looks me over, and gives me a "thumbs up"! Guess I can always join the "low rider" crew if I get bored with rifles...

All for now...gotta go move a couple yards of soil and make way for this afternoons delivery of bark mulch.

Anybody know what kind of velocity I can get out of ANFO and diesel fuel???

All I can say is I'd better get a new toy out of this...

Semper Fi

(The Gardener)
Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 20:02:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

ken (testing) <>
testing, testing, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 20:43:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
Painting sucks! Having to buy new carpet sucks! I can see this domestic work increasing the closer it gets to Meatwoman moving back. Told her last night that I was almost finished painting and her reply, "you just think you are". Jeez, just couse I haven't painted the house in 11 years don't mean it looks bad. Guess her priorities are just screwed up. Sure is putting my training on hold.

Hold tight guys, will be back soon I HOPE, Bolt down but not out!
Bolt <>
NC, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 22:26:49 (ZULU) (your host address:


Great topic!

They certainly have their place and should be frequent in training. Even taking a unit to the point of exhaustion which degrades their ability to perform at the objective in peacetime is valuable training for a couple of reasons. One; it reiforces the principal of "know your unit and employ it in accordance with its capabilities." Without pushing that hard, neither the leader, nor the soldier knows what its capabilites are and with pushing, it won't improve. Two; all our recent conflicts have been relatively easy ones. In the real wars we fought, I am sure there were plenty of times where units fought where they were spent.

On the other hand, Kevin nailed it when he said that its a crime to foolishly exhaust your men needlessly before an actual mission.

Ï remember how my units would do all they could to smoke us. One MRE/day, no sleep, long humps in the worst possible terrain, deprive you of resources, have the extraction vehicles take off as you approach and see if you lose your stuff etc. But, when things were real, they gave us everything we could possible use. Thats the way to do it.

An old phrase, but a good one:

Jefe <>
Colombia - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 22:28:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt & Wes........ You guy's need to learn the lesson that I learned from the professional slackers at work. If you screw some of these jobs up - just enough - they'll never ask you do do anything else - ever!

Jim...... for the price of an AR-10 .260 it should digest any name brand factory brass in existence! I hope that you're not happy with the solution of using the most expensive factory brass that's available, then necking to .284 and then to .264 in order to gain some reliability. No flame here- but if that's the best it could do, and you can't get any help from the maker, you should take a before photo first, then the after shot following the detonation of the barrel, chamber, receiver and buttstock when filled with C4 or the equivalent!
Then e-mail the photos to everyone concerned, and all the shooters that you know, and make sure to name names.

And some people rag on the M14 types! Double HA - to borrow an exclaimation from Pat. Seriously Jim, I wish you nothing but good luck resolving this problem. You've got more patience than me.
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 22:48:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

No particular point to all this, just wanted to " crow " a little:)
Got to hit the range before work today, training up for the State Sniper Championship in a couple months, and shot the best group I've ever managed, 4 shots,.5" at 200 yds. I know Gardner and Rice rifles do better, but I'm pretty happy about a plain jane VS remmy treating me this good...
FWIW, this is an older rifle, before all the Stren Q.C. problems.
Have A Good Weekend Folks..
Loper <>
USA - Friday, April 27, 2001 at 23:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
Sir Wes,

Tactical Landscaping - I Love IT!!! Lets not forget "Keeping up Appearances"........

I was just looking over the deck and "She who must be obeyed in By-Gawd" hath noticed the back 20 is in need of grooming.

So I must don my mighty yardsword (we non-mountian folk call it a weedeater) and sally forth to smite the plague that grows before us.

Of course this is a sniping related post as strategic clumps of wild rose, honeysuckle, and indigenous flora will be left to allow me to test further advances in LIGHT WEIGHT Ghillie suit design.
Naturally this shall occur while on a series of E&E missions from "She who must be obeyed" ;-)


Did I miss something on the .260/AR-10 ??

Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Saturday, April 28, 2001 at 11:17:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

>" "She who must be obeyed in By-Gawd" hath noticed the back 20 is in need of grooming... (we non-mountian folk call it a weedeater)"<

HA... double HA!... us mountain folk call them "Sheepies" ;))


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, April 28, 2001 at 14:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Is anyone else getting spammed by cheesy little hucksters from Africa? The gist of the first couple of lines of the spam/scam is that some "Dr" somebody from Bango-Bango is offering to make me a zillionaire if I just trust him. The reason I know it originated on this board is that he used the moniker I only use here.

If anyone is stone stupid enough to reply to this clown the bone head deserves what he gets.

CDC' <>
USA - Saturday, April 28, 2001 at 15:42:50 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have been getting that crap for years... mostly from Nigeria.

The scam is that "They" (Government employies) have been able to find a Nigerian govt account that has eleventeen billon in it, but need a way to get it out of the country, electronically... so if you will give them your bank account number, they will transfer the eleveenteen billion to you, they you will transfer it to their Swiss acct, and you get to keep 20% of the eleveenteen billion... sounds great to people with a second grade education... but you give them your account numbers, and wait for the money... go to the bamk to chack your balance for your riches, and find your account EMPTY :(((, and there's nothing you can do about.

IT's called "Putting clorine in the financial gene pool" ;)

Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, April 28, 2001 at 15:55:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jason, lad, the 338 Lapua is not a necked down 416 Rigby. Common mistake. It may have started that way but the web area is beefed up big time and minor chnges have been made to make a much togher case. You are not the only one to make the mistake. Hell the Hornady dies I got a Hornady shell holder for the Rigby and it would not work with Lapua brand cases. The Norma Brass is closer to Rigby specs and will work in a Rigby shell holder. The Lapua brand take s a shell holder for a 45/70. Yes you can get 338/378 Weaterby ammo factory loaded but it is not the bullet you would want for long range work. Stick to the Lapua not the Weatherby.

Dean, nice report on the 408 Cheyenne.

Well just finshed a week at the range 14 hours a day. Average Temp 70. One day 30 the next 100 degreees for an average of hot or cold.

Time to get caught up on slings.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, April 28, 2001 at 19:25:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone ever done buisness with B&B Sales in Hollywood? They list their Leupold M1's at a great price. If anyone has good or bad to say about an experiance with them please email me.

Thanks in advance

Chad <>
OKC, OK, USA - Saturday, April 28, 2001 at 23:47:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Chad: B&B is a big time distributor. They should be ok.

CDC' <>
USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 00:09:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Is there any difference between the winchester stealth and the rifle that they used to call their heavy barreled varmit model (with the synthetic stock)? Did winchester use the H.S precision stock with the aluminum bedding block on the heavy barreled varmit model? Thanks. Couldn't find it in the archives.

Ed <>
USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 00:48:55 (ZULU) (your host address:


Stealth and HBV is the same rifle, same action, same stock... stock is H-S Precision with aluminum thingie... Stealth has a black Cromoly barrel, HBV had a white stainless barrel... both out shoot most all OTC rifles made.

Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 01:06:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito, thanks for the info on the winchester HBV. Seriously considering putting one in the safe. It needs a home. But I don't know if it will be happy sitting in the middle of all those remingtons...
Ed <>
USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 01:28:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
Wes (The Gardener)
Bolt (The Painter)
PeteR (The Yardswordsman)

Great posts!! LMAO I retired last April and lived through all that you describe. I went back to work in self defense.

But I'm off to the range tomorrow. That is, if it's alright with you know who!
PaulS <>
Columbia, MO, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 03:28:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone had any trouble getting to I keep getting the "has performed an illegal operation" Windows message of death. I can open any other website with no problems, so this one intrigues me.
I wanted to get the skinny on the Mosin-Nagant sniper rifles that Mr. Gooch gave us the heads-up on.

Gizmo <>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 05:37:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tim (Gizmo)...... I haven't had any trouble getting to AT's website, but if you can't log on you can send an e-mail to
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 06:27:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ref: Windrunner/.408

Interesting report......opinions?

Have any of you actually worked with a Windrunner?

The lawn needs mowing and there is a tree pushed over near the creek.....Ahhhh it's good to be Andy's dad.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 10:36:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just an FYI on something I came across: It appears the ARMY OF ONE is going ahead with the issue of Black Berets, however Ranger units will be switching over to a Tan Beret. Can't figure that one out yet. Units wearing Green or Marron remain unchanged..
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 12:21:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
175 Match Ammo -

Does anyone have any experience with the IMI 175 gr Sierra Match ammo sold by Cole Distributing? I use their M193 and M855 ammo in my mouse gun and it's very good stuff.

Performance wise, is it comparable with the Federal 175 GMM? Price is about the same for both.

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 13:49:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone who hunts the Thunder Basin National Grassland should check the shooting restrictions.

James Barko <>
CALUMET CITY, IL, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 13:52:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

I purchased a case of the IMI .308 match from Cole's about a month ago. Best price that I could find for any 175 gr match ammo. I haven't fired any of it but I did find it a little odd that the headstamp was IMI 308 WIN. I purchased some unprimed brass from someone else and that is headstamped IMI 308 WIN MATCH. WTF?

Also purchased a case of Black Hills .308 match 175gr and the headstamps on those were WINCHESTER 308 WIN and BHA 308 WIN MATCH. WTF?, again. So much for the same lot of brass.

Pablito (Catshooter),
Do you know of anyone who makes a .50 BMG body sizer die? (like the body sizer Redding uses in their bushing die set.) I do have a CH-4D full length sizer. Maybe I could get the neck sizing portion of this die modified. Have an opinion on this?

Tanks in advance.

John <>
WI, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 14:52:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

HK 91 A2-A3 308 ACCURACY
Is this rifle considered a sniper rifle. How accurate is this weapon out to say 500yds+? I,m thinking about a semi-auto rifle to shoot at these ranges to play with. Does anyone have anybother suggestions? THANKS Doug
Doug <>
USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 15:04:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Black Hills like most manufacturers stamp the lot # on the inside flap of the 20 round box. The lot #(s) is(are) also stamped on the outside of the case.

All the Black Hills ammo (.308 and .300WM) that I have purchased from them, all last year, were headstamped BHA Match.

As for their lot numbers:

I purchased a case of .300 Win Mag (300 rounds) thinking I'd get one lot. Nope, got three different lots in the same case. This is their 190 SMK match stuff. In fact I got ONE BOX with two lot stamps on it, no joke.

I called BH and talked to a couple of their techs. They would not divulge the meaning of their lot numbers, but claimed that all the components in the three lots that I had were all the same and that there were different operators at the machines that caused the different lot #'s. Sounded like a line of BS but I politely gave up.

If anyone out there knows the "meaning" of the BH lot numbers please post.

John, I know this does not directly answer your post, but I hope it gives you an idea of what you can get in a case.

Chapel Hill, NC, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 17:56:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


FYI, they purchased the black berets from Communist China and thats no joke.

What a brainstorm. I was hoping someone would get relieved of command over that. God knows we have money to burn on crap like that.

Jefe <>
Colombia - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 19:54:30 (ZULU) (your host address:


The guy at Black Hills was giving you the straight skinny... most ammo companies change lot numbers for the slightest thing... at Sierra, they change lot numbers if one operator goes home, and another takes over the machine.

Even if they just change "catch" barrels, with the same operator, same jackets, cores, etc... new lot number!!

It means nothing to the shooter... you can be shooting 5 lot numbers of Matchkings, and they are all the same bullet, same batch of jackets, same cores, same everything... but one operator went out for coffee, one got a phone call, a lightbulb was changed, and the electrician had a sandwich before changing it ;))


Pablito <>
One MatchKing... one Kat!! in the, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 20:04:49 (ZULU) (your host address:


1. Yo - all - been away since sat. morning.

Okay - youn'z need to check out this new tactical stock that is gonna become available soon. All the contact info, etc is on the web page. Click on my name to get to the site and read the intro. We turned up a site for him friday evening. The site has an intro page with a picture of the stock. If any of youn'z know Paul Gallagher - he is really good to deal with. Click on my name to see the site....

2. Blackwater training facility - this place is setup to do some really good training. I was there in a visiting capacity over the past 24 hours. Very good facilities for chow, lodging, etc on the premises.

Ken :)

ken hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 23:16:04 (ZULU) (your host address:


Please run outside and fire five rounds of that IMI 175 at a nice big tree about a hunurd yards away and let me know what you think! :-))))

Seriously, has anybody actually shot any of this stuff? Inquiring minds are really nosey!

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2001 at 23:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Fellers,
I just recently got access to a nice rural area fer shootin'. I'm hoping to get some nice steel "gongs" for 600+ yard work. Where can I find them? Who makes them etc? I'd try making one myself but I don't have the tools (let alone the knowhow) to do it.
Rich S <>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 01:45:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jefe: Are you authorized to tell us about your south-of-the-border vacation?

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 03:40:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

And of course I forgot to mention last night, I also took Dean's report and added it to the Articles section. When next I archive I'll change Ken's links to go there. He's just so much more on the ball than I am lately!

I still need to add Catslayer's write-up there...

Dabbled a bit with the Ballistics section as well last night, for those who are interested and don't look at the Main Page or the What's New section.

Started looking at and thinking about the New Duty Roster - hope I can get at least a first iteration up quicker than I've been able to attend to other things! Actually sitting right here at work now putting some thoughts on paper! (Friday was a public holiday, as is tomorrow, so work is real slack)

Marius <>
RSA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 09:29:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

John - "I purchased a case of the IMI .308 match from Cole's about a month ago. Best price that I could find for any 175 gr match ammo. I haven't fired any of it but I did find it a little odd that the headstamp was IMI 308 WIN. I purchased some unprimed brass from someone else and that is headstamped IMI 308 WIN MATCH. WTF?"

IMI does package some of their production for sale under the Winchester name. If you ever buy Win Q3131A (sold in a Win box) it is exactly the same as IMI M193 (5.56 NATO). It is even produced in the same Israeli plant. Apparently there is some marketing connection between the two.

I checked my Federal .308 and the headstamp is FC 308 Win. Not that odd if you remember that the "official" name for the .308 round is .308 Winchester.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 10:33:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: PT

I watched a special on the Royal Marine Commandos on the History Channel last night. Their approach to physical training seems quite enlightened. They work with their recruits and develop the level of fitness required and even have a special program of therapeutic activity for injured recruits. They maintain a high standard of fitness without the "march or die" philosophy of the old school.

I can remember being "profiled" with shin splints and being considered to be among the "lame, sick & lazy" all the while falling behind my peers in fitness training. Then playing "catch-up" when I finally got off profile.

The Royal Marine system looks good.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 11:19:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Storm Mountain vs. Frontsite.

How do the two schools compare concerning their various classes and offerings?

In your opinions, which is the better school?

The reason I ask this is that a friend of mine attended a class at Storm Mountain and has been slamming them while praising Frontsite (He is the type that thinks everything is bad unless he thought of it). I haven't been to Frontsite and I want an unbiased opinion. I personally liked Storm Mountain and it compared to HK's tactical school well.

BCR #226 <>
USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 12:21:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Storm Mountain vs Frontsite

I've been to Storm Mountain a few times.
Good training, interesting facility (not fancy but good to go).
Rod can be hard on you but his intention is to get you up to standard.

I got warned off of Frontsite so I didn't go.
Frontsite seems a bit "commercial" and "ego laden".

I've never heard a bad word about Thunder Ranch.
I plan to attend when I get the chance.

Blackwater has a good rep. as well.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 13:06:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

night sight !

I was visiting a customer when a hunter walked in with a newly purchased night sight rig.

It consisted of a monocular 3rd gen. NVD which was clamped parallel to the rifles scope with an included polymer clamp. A IR laser diode torch was then affixed to the ocular of the scope with a piece of rubber tube that had the IR Lasers and scope ocular diameters.

It works kind of like to old Hensold aimingpoint projector which was common on MP 5īs in the 70īs.

The IR torch shines through the scope and projects the reticle on the Target, kind of like the Batman logo :), and the NVD is just attached parallel to the scope so that you can see it.

the whole contraption is a big bulky and is not intended for field use other than mounting it once your up on a treestand and shooting wild boar at night.

its a clever way around our firearms and hunting law which outlaws night sights to prevent poaching. any NVD with a reticle will put you in the slammer here if you're not military or police.

the owner wants to call me when he has a chance to shoot the rig, anyone interested in the results, e mail me.


torsten <>
germany - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 13:24:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Morning Hogs..
Damn what a weekend!!! 40mph winds and 96 degrees!!! We had 13" of snow last weekend and 31 degrees now you see why they call us the land of infinite varitey.

'lito is right on BHs Ammo I had a chance to tour through the plant and Jeff explained all this to me. They even keep a sample of everything they load in case there is a problem. The numbers tell them everyting "They" need to know about the ammo and would have nothing to do with components.

They do a lot of testing and then decide on the right load and components for their ammo. Its a first class operation with top notch quality control. Hope this helps clear it up for you.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 13:28:21 (ZULU) (your host address:


To anyone interested,

Date: June 9th and 10th
Where: Camp Butner, NC
What: Saturday: (9th) CMP Clinic and Shoot. National Match format
from 200 yd line, any gun. Fee for clinic and shoot $45 (I
believe); includes class, ammo (56rds 30.06)and shoot.
Proceeds benefit NC Junior Rifle Team.

Sunday: John C. Garand Match

The Garand Match is fired at a distance of 200 yards. Its course of fire is one that even new shooters can successfully complete. Shooters begin with five sighting or practice shots and then shoot ten shots for record in the prone position in a fifteen-minute time period. This is followed by a rapid-fire series. Shooters begin the rapid-fire stage while standing and must drop down into the prone position and fire ten shots, with one reload, within a 70-second time limit. The final ten record shots are fired in the standing position with a ten-minute time limit.

Shooters may use any “as-issued” U. S. service rifle including the M1 Garand, M1903 Springfield, M1917 Enfield, M1941 Johnson or .30 Cal. M1 Carbine. Rifles must have standard stocks and be equipped with military-type web or leather slings. Rebarreling with barrels of “as-issued” dimensions is permitted, but “NM” parts or glass bedding is not permitted. (This information taken from the CMP website

This is a fun weekend for anyone interested. For more information go to

Semper Fi,

Paul <>
No-Va, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 14:19:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Frontsite vs Storm: I haven't been to Storm so I have no opinion. I've been to the SMG freebie at Frontsite and have known and trained with Frontsite's founder for years. The guy's name is Naish Piazza. He runs his ranges pretty close to the way Cooper runs his. His doctrine is slightly different, but it appears to be sound. Some of it is better.

Naish is a promoter with his sights set on the big time. To some people - public servants especially - that is an insult. With the Frontsite project he is daring to do a great thing. Part of this great thing is the fantastic facility he is building. I haven't been there in a couple of years, but - when I saw it - it looked like it was going to be spectacular. In taking on this monster project Naish seems to constantly be embroiled in some sort of legal conflict.

Californians. Oy.

I think Naish is an all right guy and I wish him success.

CDC' <>
USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 14:51:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


Nothing too high speed to report. The job is for corporate security and its nothing horribly exciting. However, it's a beautiful country, despite the public opinion to the contrary and the vast majority of the people are hard working, decent folks who I am lucky to be around.

The women are gorgeous, drinks are cheap and the US Dollar goes a very long way. Plus, there is a little excitement from time to time to keep it interesting.

Sure beats living in VT, where the women are hogs, drinks are overpriced and they ran the only strip club out of the state claiming "moral outrage" about a month before they passed a law letting fags marry. When they started to tax beer to support heroin treatment (for the out of state refuse from NY/MA which slithers across the border for free methadone) I knew I had to leave.

The politics down here make much better sense.

Jefe <>
Colombia - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 15:39:51 (ZULU) (your host address:


which class(es) did your friend attend at storm?


ken hunter <>
nokesville, va, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 16:36:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

He took the Handgun 2 class.

BCR #226 <>
USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 17:13:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the Nigerian email CDC mentioned. I received a similar "offer". I have reported it to the appropriate authorities. I wasn't aware that they were sourcing the emails from this forum.

On my .260 AR10.

The builder, George Gardner, has been extremely cooperative. He has built me three other rifles that have all worked perfectly. I'm not sure how it was derived that I was not getting the support I needed from my rifle builder, but it is not factual.

I entered into the "experiment" in the AR10 knowing full well that there were risks. I am in the process of learning what factors influence the performance of a high powered gas gun and I won't even pretend to be up-to-speed at this point.

It is far more likely that the root cause of my problem is within my span of control than with the rifle. I would ask you all to bear with me and not draw any pre-mature conclusions. I would like very much to be able to ask candid questions, but I will very quickly go silent if my questions are inadvertently doing harm to a businessman who has been nothing but great to me.
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 17:53:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Guys,

I just finnished the P-1 class at Blackwater. Have to say the facilities are great and the atmosphere very warm. I learned a lot and
feel I am three times the shooter I was before. Shooting a moving targets at 300 yds is great. I would recommend it to anyone wanting to
learn the ways. Longest distance for that class was 600 yds.
David <>
Cola, SC, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 18:00:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Storm vs Frontsite: Mike what class(s) are you interested in ?

I've not been to frontsite so I can't make a comparison. I've taken the HG2 and HG3 classes at SMTC and I thought they were first rate. I believe there are write ups about a number of the classes at SMTC in the reviews section on this site. Can't imagine why your friend would be disappointed. I've been through all The LRR and SS classes to and I can't wait to get the next one. I like the training there that I usually don't consider going elsewhere because I know I won't be disappointed. Everytime I attend I pick up something new so it's been worthwhile for me. At the HG2 class there are different levels of shooter expertise so maybe your friend felt that the others weren't up to his standards, can't really say.
TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 18:25:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

I to have taken the HG2 class and I will be taking LRR 1 next year. My friend is a Frontsite fanatic and he has been there several times.

I really like Rod and the guys there. They seem to really know what they are doing and my shooting skills improved greatly in the two day course I took the other weekend.

BCR #226 <>
USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 19:31:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ref: Storm Mtn. vs Front Sight vs Whatever

I really want to attend Blackwater so I can get the T-shirt to wear at the next Sniper Rendezvous.

As a kid I would throw rocks at hornet's nests and haven't quite gotten over the thrill of it.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, April 30, 2001 at 20:22:38 (ZULU) (your host address: