April 15, 2001 - April 23, 2001

I just have one more thing to say about your 'JB' post to me.

You said:

>I've caught that too much is a bad thing, but it's still hard for me to believe someone could grind away enough barrel to actually make a difference with the stuff.

Do you realize the tolerances that I strive to keep on the bore and groove dimensions? hahahh... I hold a +0.0003", that's three tenths, 3 ten thousandths of an inch on the bore diameter, and a -0.0003" on the groove diameter. That would not be considered a cat hair, I've measured 'em, they run 0.008" or more, depending on the cat. Since we are talking about a circular surface, you could actually say my tolerances are 0.00015" per side. I keep these tolerance TO make a difference in the performance of the barrel and rifle. When anything abrasive is pushed thru the barrel after it leaves me and I hear about it, I throw up my hands and ask myself 'why in the hell do I bother with these tight dimensions!!' Use that JB to polish your pet rock or something.

later
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 00:01:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Okay dude - just so you'd quichyer whinin' I put a link to your write up on the main page - so that newbies and old salts can get a quick intro/refresher course...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 02:38:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Maybe full up,loaded, with suppressor and Simrad. Otherwise I think the good colonel spent too much time on the rifle team on the east coast and not enough time in the grunt units out at Pendleton or Bridgeport. I like what Col Chandler writes, I had his books signed when I was stationed at Lejeune. I think he's done good things for the USMC snipers. But he's a commissioned officer, and as such I really don't think he has an operator's view of the matter. Do we want to go the opposite extreme and have rifles that weigh nothing? No, a solid rifle(perhaps 12.5-14.5lbs) adds stability when you're huffing and puffing because you just humped up a hill with 100+lbs of crap. But I'd rather have a 13.5lbs rifle and an extra 3qts of water, than a 18.5lb rifle. I'm going to shoot them equally well. I don't think there's going to be any problems with lack of durability on a 13.5lb rifle. There is no good reason to add weight just for weight's sake.

Those people who think that the 260Rem(6.5-08) doesn't have the snot for 1000yds had better talk to Boots Obermeyer, as he regularly kicks everybody's ass with one. They are better than the 308 that's for sure, and no one seems to have problems with that cartridge at 1000yds. Is it a 6.5-284? No, but it'll surely do the job if you will. Semper Fidelis....
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 04:01:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

I have a great deal of respect for Norm Chandler and Company. One thing I am sure of is that they do whatever they can to build the best rifle they know how using the best materials and craftsmanship available, and they belive what they do in order to achieve that end is nesicery. However, I do wonder sometimes if they are not takibg their good ideas and carrying them a bit too far. As a for-instance, most everybody else in the world gets by using one of several known-good bedding compounds, like Devcon Aluminum, Bisonite, or perhaps the newer Brownells Steel Bed. I was a Devcon Aluminum man for many years but have more recently become enamored with MarineTex. But what do the Chandlers use? Devcon Titianium, the most expendive crap you can get, and which I can see no advantage in using for this application (unless you plan to low-crawl through an acid vat or something). I have been meaning to ask him the why of this, but havent seen him in a couple of years. Perhaps he has a great reason.

In the same vein, I have to wonder if I realy, realy have to tie up half a pound of mass and several hundred dollars of hard-to-come-by moolah to solve the bottom metal problem. Yes, I am aware that the can crack out or otherwise fail when you apply the nominal 65 inch-lbs of torque. Every time I torque mine, I get nervous.

I am one of those sad souls that got hung with a 700 PS DM gun, and me and that cheesy-ass magazine arrangement do not get along all that well. So, I intend at some point to kill both of these birds with one stone, hopefully the next time I tear the gun down for some reason. The trigger guard is to be ditched and replaced by a $15 steel ADL replacement guard from Brownells. The front is taken care of by glassing in a lathe-turned escuchion made from steel. That leaves the magazine to be taken care of. I happen to have a couple of damaged M14 mag tubes (a home-grown demil job involving a pickax) hanging around that could be cut down to 8 rounds or so. One of these could be fitted to the rifle and attached semi-permanently (lots easier than cutting the gun up to work with unmodified M14 mags). I have to be able to do better work than those monkeys up in Ilion.

Weight:

Um, 10-12 pounds sans optics and assessories seems plenty heavy enough to me, all things considered. A 700 PSS is in this range and hangs well offhand and is still reasonably quick for quick stuff. I really wonder about going much heavier than that. IMHO, of course.

JB:

I like the stuff, but then I do not own a superspecialpremium barrel with tolerances in the millimicron range, either. I have this Douglas Airgauged blank sitting on the shelf here, does that count? :-) What I have to work with right now is the freakin' Remington OEM tube on the 700 PSS, which gets the hell JB'd out of it every time it is shot. The alternative approaches to cleaning I have tried would take over a week to complete, and that tube could stand some polishing anyway, let me tell 'ya... :-)

From what I gather, the really nice tubes usually clean up so easily that only someone too impatient to be a sniper to begin with would want to rush the process further.

Most intriguing of all: the new FN (aka Winchester) sniper rifle with chrome bore. I like these guys way of thinking.

UnDude:

By way of clarification, I like TAR better than TS as it was, not as it could have been. A good, `00% tactical mag would be nice, but it takes more than a pretty color cover to make that happen. Gotta have writers writing about stuff that the custmer cares about, and that was not happening. Truthfully, I never thought that TS would fly from the outset, given both the limited scope and nature of the market. I used to work in the retail gun trade, and, frankly, folks such as those that inhabit this site make lousy customers for anybody but a specialized business. You (we) typicaly buy a few things either one at a time or in large volumes and usually sniff out the one or two cheapest sources for it on the planet, bypassing the higher markup outlets. Those handfull of sources cannot support a magazine, particulary when you factor the impact of the web and this site into the equasion. I already have Sinclair, Brownells, O.K. Webber, all those peole bookmarked. Ii I did not, then twenty people here will let me know within an hour of posting a request. Whats an ad in TS got left to tell me at this point?
 

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 04:25:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

I was looking into buying a steel floorplate for my M24 clone, but was scared off by the $300 or so pricetag. I just bought one of John Baier's floorplates. Very nice, and at $140 each, I can buy two. He can be found at Tactical Stocks and Supplies: http://64.226.176.47/

I just shot my first 3 gun competition today... boy do I need some work.

Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 07:09:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.62.88)

AMEN KEN!

A couple trips from the S/M tower to the slag pile, barn, and movers range, was all it took for me to have a massive reality check.
We were "daytripping" with almost nothing for a payload too!

The 700LTR/M-3 rig Team Markwell/Hanson had looked pretty good after finishing the stalk and stress events. I still am trying to figure out how "Chainsaw" got that M-Fuddy.308Towed to the top???????????
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 12:22:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.61)

I proposed a lighter SWS a few months ago and go flamed to a extra well done condition.

Might there be a change in the weather here in Sniper Country?

Off to shoot Sporting Clays with the boy.

Out.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 12:38:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.23)

Just got three more firesticks "for the kids" yesterday, when it rains it pours at the peteR home. Bet my ammo bills go up this summer............
 

Once again have a safe and Happy Easter!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
"Wheres dat Wascally Clucking Wabbit?" in BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 13:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.27)

Is there anything special (brittleness, etc.) I need to know about tapping the stock? Besides not drilling into the barrel? :-)))
 

And a Happy Easter or Passover or Whatever to everyone!

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 14:29:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.43)

JB: Dunno on this one. Geoff recommends JB or Iosso, and he's good enough to know if he's screwing something up. You gotta be doing SOMETHING right to be on the Palma 20 for 3 years! Here's my take on it, let me know if I'm off base. Back when our currency was based in precious metals, and pennies were copper, you could rub one long enough to get some color on your thumb. Not enough to polish the penny per-se, but several parts per billion/few parts per million. Isn't that the same thing you see on a patch when the JB's comes out grey/black? How much are we taking off the barrel, 0.0001"? 0.00001"? Personally, I'd like to know! I suppose the only REAL way to know would be to get a barrel, chop it in half, section the first half and examine it. Then run JB's down the other half of the bore for about a K of patches, then section it and take a look. Maybe airgauge or stargauge them before sectioning? Hey, this sounds like a GREAT pay-per article! Not that I'm doubting what you say there JR, I'm certainly no barrel maker! I just wonder why there's so many folks using it (and good shooting folks too, not dweebs like me) if it's truly deleterious to the barrel. Or is it just an easy answer of "it wears out the barrel, but nowhere nearly as fast as 5000 rounds will"?

Sproingfeld update (For you Alan ;-)) Could be it just needed lapping in or whatever since it came back from the cuss'em shop. The last 150 rounds have been jam-free (as in, without jam, not as in "no extra charge for the jams", which was the case the previous times). The ammo was all made at the same time on the Hornady progressive, so it's identical, I'm identical (HA!), I've only been using one Wilson mag, so it's identical. By logic, the ONLY thing that could have changed is the pistol or the environment, and the days have been about the same. Other than not cleaning it for the last 550 rounds (which, if anything, should make it LESS reliable), it's not been touched except to fire it. Now, someone want to explain that one to me? I'm at work, so I've got another 50 rounds for time to go home. I'm wondering if it's worth loading up another 500 at this point.
Boomhauer (Bravo) <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 14:59:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.237)

We're back,
Dad 32/50
Andy 24/50.......

A humbling experience.......

Fun with short black pumpguns and ghost ring sights.

Hey, it's trigger time.

Out.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 16:08:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.181)

My partner and I are looking to sell TRGT. My partner is becoming a federal employee and I am swamped with my current range building contract. If anyone is SERIOUSLY interested contact me off this site via my private email.

18 pound sniper rifles.....Get a fricking grip. Too heavy. Another case of design by committee. Like getting a camel when we wanted a horse.

Gooch out
 

Kent Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 16:35:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.53.27)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 17:41:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

But if precision is what you want, and you're sold on the 338 Lap Mag, (I shoot that, H-S Precision made riffle) and you want a long range target gun, you might want to look at the H-S Precision action, which is made for that caliber. They're about $700 for the action. I don't know that you'll be able to come up with a rifle that's light enough to be a hunter yet really good for long range work. If you do, let me know.

btw, some folks must be in awfully good condition to be willing to carry a nearly 19 lb rifle over hill and dale. Last deer season my 280 Remington (my only deer rifle) picked a bad time to get sick, so I had to lug my Rem PSS tactical around, 13 lbs, with a heavy long range Leo. Neva agin. Of course, I'm on the wrong side of the proverbial hill. Yep, I had not a shot longer than 70 yards...
doug <doug@intertrust.com>
USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 18:05:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.3.163.3)

Well appears "The Beast", passed the test......
It shoots much better than me.
Seems the 1-11, and the fav 44.0 Vget, 175's do work very well together.
Didn't seem to get the 1k "Wander", I have been seeing with my 1-12, and the 175's.
Also, the tube is tight, picked up an additional 53fps over the 1-12, running the Lap's @ 2713.

Brav, on the JB's.......ferget the crap.
It, and Rem Clean, and PSP, (Iosso), being the exception, (not quite as aggressive).......DOES remove barrel steel...and a lot of it.
The favorite line on this stuff is "Benchrester's use it".
And my answer is yeah, "and they replace barrels every 500-1000 rounds too".

Happy Easter.....

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 18:46:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.33)

I have access to both star-gages and air gages, if you want, I can take a scrap piece and give that JB's a test, and let you know what I come up with.

I've always believed that if something is working for a guy, don't change it. If you believe JB's is the reason your barrel is shooting, then stick with it by-gawd. Whether it is right or wrong to use it isn't the point, it works for you. JB's is not a cure all for improving the accuracy of a barrel though, a clean bad barrel will shoot poorly as will a fouled good barrel. No matter how many times you scrub the bad barrel, it will still be a bum.

But introducing an abrasive to the bore, no matter what when how will decrease the life of that bore, especially after the chamber has been cut. You are increasing your leade, and whether it is .00001 or .0001, that is that many fewer rounds that rifle will shoot accurately. You are not just removing copper, any where there is no copper fouling you are removing material off that surface also.

If business ever gets slow at H-S, I will insist that people clean their barrels with 140 grit silicon carbide Clover lapping compound. I'll buy the cans myself, and send with each rifle. By gawd you'll never again see such a clean barrel, no fouling whatsoever, promise. :P
 

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 19:07:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

C'mon now Bravo, whatdya think that black stuff left on your thumb is? oxidation, just as if you rubbed the silver. Your thumb is softer than the metal, so it will not be removing material unless you rub it long enough to generate enough friction to heat the coin past it's melting point, and that's a long time.

But, introduce say some silica sand and the oils from your skin, and yeah, you'd be removing metal.

I believe aluminum oxide is the compound they use in JB's. Same stuff I use in my lapping compound. Aluminum oxide is the same material used in grinding wheels for high speed steel and hardened tool steels. Sure works good for removing steel.
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 19:25:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Anyone have specific questions you'd like me to ask them on your behalf? I'll try to accomodate as many as I can, but I also want to be courteous to the other students.

Mr. Owens has already told us that, "Black helecopter type questions are NOT to be asked of Boots Obermeyer".

I'm going to be asking about reloading dies/powders/primers/bullets/brass, 5R rifling, the 6.5X284, JB's bore paste, proper cleaning (too much vs. not enough), Outers Foul Out, Rem vs. Winch actions, Moly coating, VLD booolets...
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 19:28:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Found that if the Amax is run to 2800fps the 1000 yard drop is only 30.5moa....could be intereting. Have to try it further since I got my blood sugar outta whack yesterday and was shooting minute of berm at long range.

That there thingie TS refers to as the beast....well it's one sweeeeeeeeeeeet rifle indeed. Kept 'splainin to him how it needed broke in....of course I'd have been more than happy to do that over the next 3-4 years.............. :)
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 19:51:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.23)

If you want an explanatory article relating to the various aspects of cleaning solvents and compounds as per match barrels, I would gladly give you an insight you may not have considered previously. Just a consideration.

jr

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 00:26:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 00:33:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

I bought some South African 5.56mm from Midway USA and fired them out of my AR15 and Daewoo K2. I had a misfire rate of 40%. One of the reasons is the AR has a JP trigger and hammer with spring. The K2 on the other hand was stock. Has anyone experienced the same misfire fiasco? I bought 1000 rounds of the stuff. I will try it in my Bushmaster to see if it misfires as well.
Has anyone tried the Russian 5.56? Is it reliable? I could care less about tack driving accuracy. I am going to sign up for a TFTT class soon amd need some ammo.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 01:22:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.76.47.178)

JR...Do the JB test..Many would like to see the results..

Bravo...Glad the 1911 is running..

Had my hands on the new RRRRUUUGer 77CR rifle Friday..Know most here aren't hot on the brand but what a compact little number..smaller and lighter than a Model 7; .223, .243, & .260 were in stock. Don't know if any other cals. are offered..If I needed a truck gun???#*^//?
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
More mobile and getting the leg back in shape in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 01:32:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.240.41)

Haven't used the Rooskie stuff personally......but I heard you need to steer clear of the WOLF brand........

The lacquer on the booolets, and cases foul the chamber after firing this stuff.

Mike in Texas, has had great luck with the S & B stuff.

You can buy it from "Cheaper than Dirt". And I'm sure many other places.

Mike L, You LUCKY dog!!!!!!..........Boots, AND Krieger???...

One specific question, I have long heard that the 5R profile has a shortened tube life as compared to the regular 4/6 L & G styles....if you can remember..get their opinions on this.

Seems, a few years back, the M24 SWS had this problem.

And, Yes....By ALL means...do NOT get Boot's on the non exisitent..... Black Helo's((;

Two Shoes
Still smilin', in Tejas!!!!!

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 02:07:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.33)

What are you waiting for?????????????????

Big Smile :-)

Happy Feet! Happy Feet!
 
 

Military Surplus Ammo - Caveat Emptor Dudes!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 02:11:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.54)

New tactical gear forum for you fellow gear hawgs:

http://lightfighter.community.everyone.net/commun_v3/scripts/directory.pl
 

Time for some Pepto, think the bunny is trying to get out, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 02:34:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.119.122)

Still alive, amigo. Been busy as all hell the last four weeks or so. Personell problems ranging from resignations to geography (my guys in India have been giving me fits). Luckly, it seems to have sorted itself out, and things should (finally) settle down this week...

...which is good, because I've been working on PeteR's rifle update article for two weeks now, and am still on page 1! Ugh. From the looks of things, I'm going to have many more articles coming in soon.

RE: S&B
I shoot a heck of a lot of this stuff through my pistols. Natchez Shooting Supply (http://www.natchezss.com/) usually has the best price, even after paying for shipping. I just bought a case of .45 ACP 230gr FMJ last week for ~$180, delivered. FWIW
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
The city of body piercing and concealed handgunds in church, Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 02:44:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.72.4)

Ken
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 02:45:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Yep, both of them. For three whole hours, and however long we can bribe them to stick around afterwards with free brewskies. And yes, I do know how lucky I am, which is why I'm trying to make the most of it by fielding questions here.

Thanks, I'll add your question to the list and let you know what they say.
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 03:00:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

I believe the Easter bunny is now truly dead, for at least another year. My ex is probably cooking it for me now......

Markwell, pete ah,

youse guys realize when I do this test, I gotta buy some JB's, and bring it into the shop, heheheh, I'll be ridiculed!! The crap I'm going to have to put up with just to satisfy youse guys!! I'll get some info rounded up for ya, tech info, and hopefully no one will have to destroy their barrel from removing fouling ever again!! You can get on with shooting your barrels out, not cleaning your barrels out!

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 04:19:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

I recently tested out the following ammo all in the same day in my Bushmaster (20-inch, heavy barrel, cheapish chinese 3x9 scope w/illuminated reticle on a Delta mount over an A3 handle):
69 grain handloaded "match" ammo from Daryl Williams, Performance Ammo Corp
55 grain Wolf (this is the Russian you asked about, I've never tried Barnaul)
55-grain Winchester
62-grain SS109, Spanish (INI, Palencio)

The winchester and the wolf were comparable, grouped about 1.25" at 100 yards. I have had .90 with the winchester ammo, but not this lot, not this day. I did not like the oily crap that they have on the Wolf ammo. No reason in particular, I just don't like the idea of running it through my rifle. There's cheap and good and there's good n' cheap, if you'll forgive my bias.

Believe it or not, the Spanish ss109 was very very close to the match ammo. You'd a thought that the match components plus the 69-grain vs 62 would have put the match ammo way in front. Around 1" for both. Maybe a tad more. Not a good day. In the hands of a good marksman, the "better" ammo may have made a difference. I went out and bought 1000 rounds of the spanish.
doug <doug@intertrust.com>
USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 05:07:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.3.163.3)

They are not to protect you from IR, they are to stop others from seeing the bright "PINK" from the IR filters on your bins, or scope.

Go here, and see exactly what they do...

http://www.camouflage.com/front.html

... I have a pair of M22's with the anti-IR filters, and the damn things will get you busted every time you try to use them.

When I walk past the local college, all the co-eds say "There's that guy with the weird PINK binoculars ;))

BUSTED!!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 10:30:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.84)

JR,
We will be looking forward to seeing the data, Just tell the folks at work you're doing it as a charitable contribution to the "Great Unwashed".
 

'Lito,
Pink Binos?! Sounds like the UnDudes local "Urban Camoflage"
 

Oh well ofta work, and the reality of why rainy Mondays exist..........

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Its Monday Again!, By-Gawd, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 10:43:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.23)

I have to agree with you on the JBs. Now if I use it, I use it very carefully and not much of it.

Gary Schneider of Schneider barrels was the first one to get on me about it. Years ago I had one of his barrels on a 308 and I had trouble with it fouling on one land right toward the end of the barrel and it was throwing a round out of the group in the exact same spot most of the time.

I was cleaning it with JBs to get rid of the fouling in that spot. He told me to "Knock that shit off" and clean it with chemical cleaners and if it didn't quit fouling he would lap it for me.

He said everytime you clean with JBs you need to start the breakin process all over again because you destroy the "Bond" that was built up during the breakin process.

I asked my rifle builder about it and he said it was "Bull" but you know I listened to Gary and damn if he wasn't right. He told me to take one of my other rifles that cleans up easy and then scrub it with JBs and see what happens. I did and it fouled more for the first time or two that I shoot it. It took longer to clean up until it "Seated" back in again.

Terry..
Sorry Bud, I got the starting of actual case sepreration with the IMI brass. It was loaded to hot the first time though, we had loaded it with 45grs of Varget and we had stiff case extraction. After the second firing with a lighter load I noticed two cases that had the actual line you could feel with your nail. I checked and found no others then after the third loading more started to show up.

I like their brass and I hope we just had a bad batch of it I would be interested in finding out how yours works out for you.

Ken..
Your dead on, on the 260, it will shoot to 1000yds just fine!!! IN fact I have one with a 22" barrel that does it. I love my 6.5s in both the 260 and the 6.5x284. I would have to agree that the IMP would be a big pain and I would think that the 6.5x55 would fill that gap it it didn't loose accuracy once you started pushing the bullets up around 2900fps.

300WSM and 6.5???
This may be a real hot rod but what killed the 264Win Mag was OVER POWDER CAP. case = Barrel burner. You don't need a lot of powder to push the 6.5s to top speed. The 260 and 284s are proving that. A lot of research has been done over the years and they found that the ideal case cap. for the 6.5 bullet would be a .257 Roberts Imp case. The 284 case is just a tad over but very close to perfect and thats why it does so well.
You can push the 140s in the 284 case to 3200fps and that was 264 Mag velocities.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 14:00:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

JR, with your dislike of JB Bore Paste you must realize that this stuff has been arround for at least 30 years that I know of. You wont find to many benchrest guys without a bottle or 2 in their cleaning bags. The abrasive in JB is 2 micron, and is not going to change dimensions of your barrel with normal use. If you are making barrels you probably lap them with a 240 - 350 grit silicon carbide compound. Probably 20-25 strokes with a lead lap and they are shipped out the door, am I close to correct??? It would take you 20 to 30 thousand strokes to remove the same ammount of material with JB.

JB is good for removing copper from a bore. It is not to be used at every cleaning. Keep this in mind.
 

George
George, G.A. Precision <A10Xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 17:06:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.163)

All the Best
Jon
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
Ulverston, Cumbria, UK - Monday, April 16, 2001 at 21:32:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.194.19)

George: thanks for the numbers. I was going to run an extraction on some of my JB's, then run it in a microtrac to get the particle size in microns. Getting rid of the grease was the hard part, I MUCH prefer just reading the number ;-) Thanks!

Wolf ammo: my neighbor said it was GREAT some time back, purchased it by the case, and had a great time. As great as one can have with a Simonov. The most recent case he bought, according to him, is an entire dissapointment. Seems that something changed, and now it sucks. FWIW.

26" barrels? HA! I was thinking about just this. I said I really liked the velocity of the 26", burned more efficiently I think (or maybe it was just the barrel). But I like carrying the 24", and the velocity isn't THAT much less. My good friend says "split the difference!" HA!
Boomhauer (Bravo) <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 00:01:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.162)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 00:13:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.104)

George Gardner,

It's about time you gave your input, LOL, I've been trying to lure you out of the shadows for weeks now. I have a project, may need your help, I'll e-mail ya with details eh?

George, JB's rounds the edges of the rifling, erodes the structure of the lands, and removes the finish from the bore. If you have uneven copper buildup, and you are pushing that patch thru until it's gone, you will have uneven dimensions in your bore, because as you are removing copper you are removing steel at whatever rate. You are most likely going to end up with a tight spot where the fouling was the worst, and have opened up the bore where it was minimal. Unlike solvents or Outer's Foul out, JB's doesn't just attack the copper. I would rather see JB's applied with a lap, if anything, I think that would help keep the integrity of the rifling structure.

You're pretty close, as far as our lapping process. I went through hoops and ladders finding the right grit/compound to use on our barrels. That Clover Compound Silicon carbide is a no-no with our stainless barrels, doesn't break down and scratches, I tried corundurum (?) and I found 240 grit USP aluminum oxide(ECG) is the stuff to use. I tried 280 and 320 grit, left a cloudy finish, did not remove material at a rate that was 'economical'. I don't necessarily have a standard for how many strokes I lap, it's all in the feel, but I have lapped barrels as few as 25 strokes, and as much as 400 strokes. Depends on the bore and groove dimensions and how uniform these dimensions are in the barrel. But when it is finished lapped, that is the finish that I am trying to achieve and it should be maintained. When I am done with that barrel, no more abrasive should be introduced into that bore. Ever.

I wasn't sure of the grit of JB's, but if it is 2 micron, where do you think it will possibly build up in the bore? I'm sure you have looked thru many a barrel with a borescope, and notice the 'railroad tracks' often left by the bore reamers, and definitely with the chamber reamers. At 2 micron, it'll be a bugger to know if you've cleaned it out of these crevices. So when you fire afterwards, you stand the chance of continuing to 'lap' the barrel, further deteriorating the life of that barrel.

Benchresters like the stuff cuz it works fast. They also shoot their barrels out fast. Faster isn't always better, take it from a cut rifler, we like everything slow, smooth, and easy, call us casual. We take our time with everything.

I agree that JB's works well on copper, and by-gawd be my guest to use it on any factory barrel that's out there. Match barrels are a whole new ball game, and if you want to keep it a match barrel, keep the JB's out.
 
 

Pat:

Once again, faster isn't always better eh?? That was the demise of a lot of the 264WM faction, they burned many barrels up due to hot powders. The 6.5 bore, much like the 25, 7mm and 270, is not a good bore to use if you want a hot rod, if you want to keep the barrel for long. The powder capacity of bore/bore diameter ratio is nein gut on the 'medium' bores, so keep 'em honest.

PeteAH!!!
 

You still Da MAN!! You wouldn't believe it, it's windy today...... :)

later
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 00:54:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Windy?... windy in South Dakota?... Naw, you gotta be kidding!!

Were you able to walk to the car?... without holding on to somfin?... then it wasn't windy ;)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 01:10:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.104)

All this talk of 62 grains 223 this and that and you guys missed the best. BLACKHILLS not only makes it but you can also buy the reloads. I bought a case of the 62 grain reloads and it shoots very well. Great job Jeff Hoffman!

Crack about my Ghillie? Well the blonde Ghillie was going to be replaced. Hell I spent all day yesterday making a new set but I like the old one better, so it goes to Pendelton. If I get rich I am going to buy one of the nice factory built ones and just tie the burlap. I am much better with slings than pants and shirts in the sewing department.

Faster bullets make bbl makers happier. I will stick with 308 for 99% of my needs. Changing a bbl every 2000 rds is just plain nutts.

Undude
 

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 01:15:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.29)

Lot's of "I've heard that"...yada, yada, yada,

The reality is that the bore is shot out when it quits giving you the desired accuracy for the mission. Whether it's target, benchrest, or tactical. Period.

Having said that, I agree with the Undude. Real men shoot a .308!
It will cover 99% of the missions and do it well. I shoot it and the 6.5 X .284. My M40A1 clone shoots almost as well as my Chandler 6.5 X .284. At least to 600 yards. Beyond that I'll take the wind bucking and flat trajectory of the 6.5.

You are guaranteed of getting 5,000 rounds plus out of the .308 tube. Folks are reporting 10K plus and still have usable accuracy.

I expect the 6.5 X .284, in MY application, to go about 2,000 rounds. Why? I don't hot rod it. There are folks reporting this cartridge in the 3,150 FPS category. Damned if I know how they do it. Just know I don't want to...
Keep vleocity in the 2,950 to 3,050 FPS category and you should extend bore life. Can't answer that for certain, because I'm still a LONG way away from that 2K count.

I use my .308 as a primary and my 6.5 X .284 when conditions are tough or long. It does give this aging old fart an edge.

If you have money for only one gun get a .308! Smile and be happy...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 01:57:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.118)

Windy? Yeah it was windy. We don't even notice 'til it gets over 45mph, otherwise it's just a breeze. Have to mount your scope perpendicular to barrel for windage adjustments. They said 75 on Wednesday, I hope they were talking temperature and not wind speed, you never know in South of North Dakota.

later
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 03:20:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Thanks in advance.
KROWBAR <KROWBAR@SCSSSINC.COM>
Chapel Hill, NC, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 04:59:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.101.164.95)

Krowbar,
Anything that removes metal needs to be used carefully. Ammonium solvents also have problems when mixed with certain bore cleaners.
It seems we went over that about a year or so ago, and the topic evolved into what Ammonium does to cooling tubes in nuclear reactors......
 

ALAN,
Can't use the .264M for varmints? The most wonderous crowsplosion in my life was done with a .264M.
 
 

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 10:47:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.209)

#9 is barrel friendly... wet it, leave it, clean it before going to bed.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
It looks like another BAD spring... Scuba tanks at the range :((, in the North East, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 10:54:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.115)

I've got a DOA Tabasco scope. Any of you guys able/willing to do an autopsy on it to see what went wrong?

Ref: Arizona CCW

Where can I go to find out about Arizona CCW laws?

out
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 12:03:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Try: packing.org for CCW laws...

Anyone ever try the AWC breakdown stock ? How about the HS Thumbhole?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 13:07:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

As for the speed on the 6.5x284,I shot my first 6.5x284 across the cronograph at 3170fps with RL-22 and 140 AMAXs. This rifle however did have a 1-9 twist so was a tad faster than my 1-8 is now. This rifle had a 26" Pac Nor super match barrel on it. The primers were just starting to pit with no stiffness in the bolt so I am sure 3200fps would have been .5 grs more of powder. I was looking for a good load in the 3000fps range so I didn't go any higher.

I still say the 264 is a over bore case and is a barrel burner and yes if you shoot only a few rounds through any rifle over a long period of time it will last forever. What I am talking about is how "I" would use it in competitions or practice. I baby my 6.5x284 and am very careful about not getting it to hot when shooting. I could take the throat out of it in an afternoon with out much effort.

I ruined my 260 in Wyoming a couple of years ago shooting it in 100degree temps over a 3 day shoot with the last day being a man on man competition. Even the 308s got so hot you couldn't hardly touch the barrels. My 260 barrel now looks like a dried up lake bed for about 6" down the barrel and its had 4" cut off of it!! So by all practical reasoning its junk, (to quote my gunsmith) but after rechambering it still shoots .4s at 100yds and will shoot under MOA at 1000yds. I don't have a clue how long it will go and I know when it does it will go fast.

I agree with Mike and 'lito that the 308 is the round of choice for the kind of shooting I do but I want (Or need) the extra edge that the 6.5s give me and when I can use it, I will, but I try to avoid the man on man stuff now like the plague, its just not worth it.

So before I get off my soap box, I will also say that NO I have not shot a 6x22-250 at 3200fps with the 100gs bullets but "I" was the one who said I had read it somewhere and I was just asking if anyone else knew much about them because it sounded like a neat round. As I recall didn't someone from Texas have one and was shooting it and really liked it??? I just can't remember if he was shooting the heavy bullets are not.

I hope your not taking this as a direct attack on you or the 264 its not ment that way and neither was my first post. This is just my findings and my opinions on the subject and no more, so if we disagree I hope we can agree to disagree:):):)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 13:43:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Steve
Steve <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 16:14:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.96.143.95)

How bout 19 out of 20 through a 5"x5" swinger @ 1K???.
The sucker SMOKES.......and the Nut behind the bolt, ain't no slouch either.(((:
Yeah, I'm talkin about you....you big lug!!!(:

Kevin, How's about I get in touch with Dick at Premier reticles.......and see if he will give us a post mortem??.
Would be an interesting report to say the least.

I have heard, (Gooch), disassembled one some time back, and said they were J_O_N_K.......

The "M" models are no longer available, and arew not being produced any longer.( PTL!!!!)

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 18:05:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.174)

"Kevin, How's about I get in touch with Dick at Premier reticles.......and see if he will give us a post mortem??.
Would be an interesting report to say the least."

Go for it!

I just mounted my new M1LR on the Armalite. If it shoots half as good as it looks I'll be a happy camper.

I brought home enough from Vegas to buy a new Pelican/Browning hard case for take down rifles/shotguns. The whole SWS breaks down and fits in there nicely. Very "James Bondish".....

out
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 18:51:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Terry..
Thanks, thats probably what I was thinking about I knew someone on here had commented on it. It is the 6mm version isn't it?? I remember the article I had read said that it was really a shooter at 1000yds but I can't recall the whole article. I also can't remember the comments on the wind, if it was good or bad. I would assume probably not to good of a wind bucker at 1000. If I don't write something down its gone!!! I could be the poster child for Post it Notes!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 19:30:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Semper Fi!
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
NO, VA, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 20:02:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

You guys kill me, the shooting industry is full of "I think this, so it must be true" mentality.

The shooting industry suffers as a whole from "NO SCIENCE", every one has an opinion passed off as fact.

In light of the complete lack of scientific evidence we are left with:

1. "What we believe" which might not be true.
2. Anecdotal evidence, (an observation of evidence) which might be true.

Question: Has anyone ever worn out a match barrel using JB?… That you can prove? (see #1)

I know as a fact that if you shoot a bore with excessive coppering it WILL ruin it…eventually!

As for what JB does or doesn't do, the list is amusing, like " it rounds off the lands" GOOD,
that's called 5R rifling, it reduces bullet upset and provides a better gas seal.

Proof is in the pudding guys! (see #2) every time you launch a bullet it does very rude things to your bore, Fact! NEWS FLASH shooting is bad for your bore! Film at 11.

For anyone who has lapped a bolt in, using 220 grit lapping compound it takes a long time to remove .0005", so using JB which is estimated at 1200 grit (finer than your tooth paste) I think I would give up before I wore out the bore or my elbow.

Remember a barrel is a consumable, they will not last forever, not ment to.

As for the Ammonia, yes it removes copper, brass (a copper alloy) Bronze (also a copper alloy) and it CAN remove the COPPER that is in your barrel steel (alloy steels have a little bit of a lot of different stuff in them hence the word Alloy) a lot of people have moved away…no Ran away from the electrolytic cleaning…think about it.

I would like to suggest that you use what works for you (see #1) then take notes (see #2) and then keep it a secret, so this doesn't start all over again.

My 2 cents.

Martin
Badger Ordnance

Marty <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Tuesday, April 17, 2001 at 23:14:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.186)

Guys remember this is not a flame war, this is a healthy discussion and debate over differing opinions
 

You want facts? Let me see what I can dig up here...

1) It would take millions upon millions of strokes to lap your lands off the grooves with JB's. Agreed.

2) It takes one stroke to alter the existing finish of the lands

I'm gonna take off on this one a little bit. What would you guys consider as excellent bore finish? Polished so nice and clean you can see your ugly mugs in?? When you drag the borescope thru, you see nothing but clear, glowing surface structure?? Perhaps an 8 micro or under?

We lap these barrels to the finish they should be. At least a 32, but not under 16. Barrelmakers aren't necessarily concerned with how polished the surface is, cuz it makes matters worse as far as burning up bores. Mrbullet, remember I told you the reasoning behind this, with the mirror finished bores. When we lap we are looking for a clean land, but moreso that the grain is in the direction of the travel of the bullet. We want the land and groove to have the same 'grain', this will impede bullet upset which leads to copper fouling. We lap them as much as they SHOULD be lapped, we know what finish we are looking for. When you introduce another abrasive, especially thru a soft patch, that destroys the finish we wanted, therefore the barrel fouls more, which leads to more cleanings, which leads to shorter barrel life.

3) take a closer look at the 5r profile, are you sure the corners are round?? like a dovetail with a radius?? That would be one hell uv a rifling cutter. A radiused profile is normally radiused at the intersection between the land and groove, makes more sense than that Newton rifling, with jacketed bullets. I would be interested in hearing your detailed description of the 5r profile structure, you seem to know, or think you know, more than I do about this (not a flame once again!!) I've made 5r's and I have yet to make a radiused land. The last time I made a rifling cutter, I ground the helix angle so the cutter WOULD not cut into the land, and radiused the top of the cutter so it would cut a radius into the groove. Maybe I'm all mixed up.. LOL..

4) Has anyone reduce the life of their barrel by using JB's? Everyone that's used it. Stick with solvents, more work but it'll last longer.

once again, this is not a flame in any way shape or form, please dont take it that way, it's all in fun

later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 00:08:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

As one of my favorite lines from the movies go, from Antonio Banderas goes, " Enough of theese cheet chat!!!".

I for one, am going with the folks from HART, and HS precision, and a couple of other NO names in the barrel business...."If you use abrasive cleaners in OUR tubes, you will have NO warranty".

Period, end of story........So, go fight City Hall.
If ANybody would WANT you to use this stuff, it seems it would be them...they have a LOT to gain....more barrel sales!!!!!.....

Pat, Sorry dude.....wrong story.......the 22-250, IS a 22-250, shooting 80 gr. Sierra pills.......molied
And windage is almost nil, as is elevation required.
Maybe, if Mike reads this he can repost, or hit you offline with the details.

Two Shoes
Makin' a JB's milkshake!!!!!
 

terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 00:42:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.28)

5r means 5 radials, 5 lands and 5 grooves. Not 5 radius lands. All, well I hate to say that cuz there could be a nut makin' something different, radiused barrels are radiused at the land/groove junction, have sharp sides and sharp corners. I could be dead wrong on this, but I'm sure I'm pretty close :)

Just don't want anyone to get mixed up here
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 00:44:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Have you ever played with say: A 26" long GAIN TWIST Radial profile barrel, ending at 1:11.25 ratio or so. Either the five or ten land pattern? I'm too stupid to figure the start ratios.
 

Marty,
Welcome back! Do your scope rings really need lapping? YES ITS A SERIOUS QUESTION thats been bugging me for a while.
Or is it just a sinister ploy by Pablito to sap us of all stamina before a match?
I use mine OEM and have NO COMPLAINTS. BIG - BIG :-)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 01:17:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.52)

I can never tell if you are being serious or not, but first, all barrels have a radial profile, radial is land.

I've always considered gain twist barrels as 'shredders' to anything with a light jacket. You want fouling? check out the lands on a gain twist barrel. Gosh, it's been so long since I've cut a gain twist, I'd have to check my records to tell you where we'd start if you wanted to end up with 11.25".

Verified that it will be 75 degrees tomorrow, not 75 mph winds. whew!!
 

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 01:47:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Barrel life: long time back the original Springfield Armory did a test on a randomly selected M1. They intended to fire it until it no longer met service accuracy requirements. Not sure what cleaning procedure/interval used, but after 80,000 rounds they gave up and sectioned the barrel. Rifling was gone for 8 inches up the tube from the chamber. Not real sure what the standard was back then but the guys who say shoot it till it doesn't group are on the right track.
 

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 01:53:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

Patron 'Lito: I understand that a slower bullet in the same bore eats less, but the question is how MUCH less. If we're talking the difference between 5230 rounds and 5412 rounds, who cares. If we're talking 5230 to 10,455 then I care! Oh, and just to throw this out, #9 has ammonia in it. #9 BR (which I use) has about 10 times as much ammonia in it. You're exactly right, it's 100% safe to leave in the barrel, but that's 'cause of it being the limiting reagent, not the excessive reagent.

Patron UnDude: you're the guy that got me into this JB's in the first place! I could have SWORN it was you shoving some of that down the tube of that Nighthawk about a year ago. You change your mind on this and now you clean a different way? If you've found the "better way" let me in!

Other observations: clocked some NATO 9 (FC in the military white box, the FOR REAL stuff) today, so I once again say that anyone that HAS to carry ball should carry a 1911. That stuff obviously couldn't get the shift from 2nd to 3rd gear correct. S&B ball: identical velocity, more variation in velocities. Both were 100+ fps slower than the same weight bullet loaded to SAAMI max spec. No wonder you guys say 9's suck.

Griff, my friend, you gave me the laugh of the week and then some! This guy has a *GREAT* story about his first meeting with THE MAN. Not sniper related in any manner, so I won't go into it. I laughed so hard, people came to see what was so funny. I've got a new term for Camero too! A very hearty thanks!

Brewing "taste test" kegs (2 gallons) is great for trying different recipies, but it's heck for making "beer deficits". Tonight, we feast on too-damned-expensive fresh NewCastle from the state liquor store! To give credit where it's due, Utah isn't so bad after all. I didn't think anyone here had the intelligence to buy (and therefore stock) GOOD beer LOL. Must be all us "out of staters" HA! Now to go find a sheep.
Boomhauer Dammit! <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, The Republic Of Texas, United Socialist States of America - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 01:53:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.196)

Aside from the obvious caution about not letting the Shooter's and the Sweet's mix, do any members of this impressive assembly of barrel specialists have any comments?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 02:21:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

I am under the impression that SS barrels, are in the 19-22 Rockwell scale......no where near thutty........((:
This is why you should be vewy kewful wid your cleaning rods....
Brass the jag is made of, is harder than the steel(SS)..suface hardness.
Also, Aluminium is harder than your barrel steel........as in the cheapo rods.........( surface hardness).

A lot of folks, think this ain't possible....

Go figure, is this an oxymoronski or what?......

Mulling over the meaning of cleaning.......

Two Sopatos
Flame Away!!!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 02:28:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.211)

Question for you barrel maker types:
How much metal have I removed from the barrel? Got a lot of long range work to get into this spring and this discussion is worrying me a bit.

In the past I have always had good break in results by pullin a gun out of the box, clean and lube, and shoot a bunch of FMJ. I may just stick with that from now on. The "works for me" method!!

Speaking of metallurgy...
Been talking with my brother in law the welder, we are going to be doing some steel targets (plate rack, a couple gongs for 600 and 800 yards, and a couple pepper poppers) to go along with the new berm work. I seem to remember a discussion on metallurgy and gongs/plates/poppers. Fun times ahead!! If someone with a better midterm memory could be so kind, what month was that? I would like to dig that stuff up out of the archives, but danged if I can remember when or who!! Anyone that remembers or has specs/info hit me offline please?

Thanks everyone and take care..

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
Green Bay , Packer Country!!, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 02:53:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.113)

Marty. Sorry I didnt get with you in KCMO. I kept getting tied up with NRA types and before I knew it I was back on the road.

dudes, I aint blowing this site off. I've been asshole to belly button on this range project.

dooby dooby doo

Out here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 02:57:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.52.119)

CDC..We have more in common than big lead bullets & 19lls..Used Hoppes #9 growing up but have used Shooters' choice and Sweets in pretty much the same fashion as you do for more years than I can remember..I patch out the solvents with "Brakleen" though. I will periodically[sp?] hit a bore with JBs if it's had a bunch of rounds through it [prairie dog shooting] And have used it in a couple of new factory barrels over the years that initially seemed to foul pretty badly...It seemed to help IMHO, but what do I know, I'm sold on 1911s and would rather shoot than clean any day!!!
 

JR run the test!!!!
 

Bravo...Final verdict on your Springfield????
 

PeteR..Banish me if you will but I couldn't resist the new 77CR in .223 with its' 161/2" bbl..Should be here Friday with new 2x7 Compact to top it ..Guess I did need another truck gun! DEtails to follow for you truck gun[not Ruger] fans.

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Adding up the .223s[and it's getting out of control] in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 03:22:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.149.20)

Thanks for the info on the ammo. I think I'll keep clear of the Sovietski ammo.
You know the strange thing is, there is so many different makers of this stuff one really has to wade through it all to find the really good stuff.
Another wierd question. I saw (in NV) some AP, API, and APIT, fot the 5.56! I have to ask, why didn't I see that stuff when I was in the Corps? My guess is that it doesn't work as advertised. Some had silver tips, some had silver tips with red bands.
What I am looking for is some 62gr NATO stuff that doesn't cost an arm and a leg that shoots decently and is absolutely 100% reliable. Yeah, yeah, I want my cake and I wanna eat it too.

.50 Ammo,

We (a friend and I) bought 100 rounds of .50 AP at Sacramento Armory. They delinked it with a mallot, and all the stuff stamped in the 40's were duds. We took a couple of duds apart and found WATER in them. The base of the bullets were green and the cores rusty.
You know I used to buy a lot of stuff there. Thier customer service is sub standard now and so is some of the stuff they sell. I was very sad to see a local gun landmark end up like that. We paid $1.68 a round. Just FYI guys.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
 

Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 03:31:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.152)

Holy geez mang!! I am running the test, but I gotta make sure I have all my info in order due to all the knowledgeable peeps on this site. They'll rip me to pieces!! Plus, I don't think they'd appreciate it at work if all I did was scrub barrels all day. :) I have to locate fouled and unfouled barrels, spend some time scrubbin' barrels, then hours on end with the borescope and airgages. Check a previous post, barrel makers are slow and smooth. You'll get yer steenking test. As redundant as it is.

chao

]

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 03:44:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

outa here again
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Watching it SNOW in the Alleghenies and hoping for Spring for real this time around, WV, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 03:56:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.149.20)

OK HOGS, NOW THAT I GOT YER ATTENTION,

Got word tonight that Reade Range in central PA is going to try to start shooting F-Class! If youz guyz could help me out, I'd much appreciate it.

Right now I was told that they would shoot 600 yards 2 sighters and 20 for record on the regular 600yd MR-1 tgt, any front rest -NO REAR REST, any sight, max boolet dia 8mm (Sorry Lito, no .50's), Max rifle weight of 14.5 pounds, and no muzzle breaks or BOSS units.

Need to know how it is really done, and what is the proper target to use. Any rules, etc. we need to follow to do it right. The guy that wants to run them used to shoot a lot of high Power, but the eyes and body don't cooperate no more.....he may or may not want to do it the right way! I promised to get info from those who've BTDT and won the whole shootin match, so that we can maybe start off the right way.

Thanks,
Steve (hockyref) <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Fricking snowing in, South west PA, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 04:03:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.140)

No flame Terry, jut that younz guys got me racking my brain for some knowledge that's gotten really dusty. You may be right on the surface vs Rockwell hardness. I know I'm getting old if I can't remember some of this stuff -
- NO comments about CRS Syndrome, OK????
 

Steve (hockyref) <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Now just cold and wet, in South West PA, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 04:35:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.88)

Refresh my memory, guys: Who makes the tactical rifle software for the Palm Pilot PDA? Anybody got a URL?
 
 

-Tom
 
 
 
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 04:51:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

PeteR..... I didn't say that you "can't" shoot chucks with a .264, I was sayin' that a prudent man (or woman)probably "shouldn't" do it, at least on a regular basis. BTW - my neatest 'crowplosion' was achieved with a 52gr. Speer (Big)Hollowpoint coming out of my .220 Swift at a chronographed 3965fps. E-mail for the load if you want to.

Boomhauer... I don't want to be presumptious and speak for JR, but I think that what he was describing happens when a patch loaded with JB
is being pushed down a bore and suddenly hits a copper deposit is sort of like what happehs when you try to hone a cylinder that is oval, barrel-shaped, or tapered. The hone follows the deformity! So does the patch!

Bad Karma..... Try S&B 5.56 SS109 Green Tip NATO stuff. Not the cheapest but totally reliable (in my experience) and pretty accurate for SS109 anyway.
 

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Colorado, Alferd Packer Country, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 05:18:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.77.170)

JB Paste is best suited for those barrels that no matter how hard you try wont break in (normally factory) , and always copper foul. JB makes short work of removing it and keeps your finger on the trigger and rounds going down range like they should be.

JR - 5R Barrels do have a radius that comes off the land that formes a groove without the sharp corners. Marty and I looked at several with a borescope last night, So I can absolutly comfirm this. Becouse of the radius the bullet is able to seal better and carbon is not shoved into the land-groove corner like conventional rifling. I love these barrels and use them exclusivly. I will get Mike Rock to post a quick thread on the topic so everyone can understand the theroy behind it. There was a good artical in "Accurate Rifle" 1st issue. Somone quized Boots Obermeyer on the subject.

Back to building shooting sticks.

George
 

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 09:02:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.248.155.66)

Observation: Boots can definitely get off a tangent without any prompting from anyone, but his tangents were just as informative.

Boots Obermeyer was there to discuss reloading, and Jack Krieger was there to discuss barrel making, so I had to limit what I asked each one.

I asked Boots, for .308, what his favorite powder, primer, bullets, and brass was for reloading. His favorite powder is Varget, and his favorite brass is Lapua. Then he went off on a tangent and never got to primer and bullets.

Boots also likes moly coating, but said that moly coated bullets were more sensitive to seating depth, as they didn't always result in the same amount of friction once they started moving and contacting the rifling, causing inconsistent pressure curves, resulting in vertical stringing. Therefore, said it was very important not to seat out to touching the lands when using moly. Said seating back a bit gives the powder a bit more of a chance to ignite uniformly from shot to shot, giving more consistent pressure curves.

I asked Boots what the most critical thing was in regards to accuracy - bullet sorting, case sorting, case prep, powder sifting, etc... His answer was that range time was the biggest factor in achieving accuracy, and not to waste so much time being anal at the reloading bench - spend that time at the range shooting instead.

Boots' answer to the 5R question - 5R rifling isn't necessarily more inherently accurate, but is more uniform over time. He also said that 5R barrels tend to last longer, and that they have less carbon fouling, but more copper fouling, suggesting that the bullet may be able to scrape more carbon out of the corners of the rifling due to the shallower angles involved.

I asked Jack Krieger about cleaning. He uses Sweets on a patch because it's quick and allows more time for shooting. He doesn't bother with bore brushes, because he feels the patches with Sweets and some soak time does an adequate job. He also has no problems with leaving a little copper in the barrel, as long as you don't allow it to build up. Said he didn't see any point in removing all the copper if you had to shoot fouling shots to re-deposit what you just wasted time removing.

I also asked Jack Krieger about JB's bore paste. Says he uses it, as well as Rem Clean and Gold Medallion. He says to avoid exiting the muzzle, as you can easily destroy your crown with the stuff. He says he likes to short stroke his barrels with JB’s, 5-10 inches at the breach end, in order to polish off the stress erosion that forms there. He showed a video from a bore scope, and what he called stress erosion looked like an old road begging to be repaved - a bunch of micro cracks all over. Thinks JB’s will allow a barrel to last longer by keeping the stress erosion in check and smooth. I specifically asked him if the use of JB’s voids his warrantee, and he said it did not.

Jack Krieger also talked about cryogenics, and lost me at a few spots. He did say that the purpose was to get a more homogeneous and uniform steel, something about artificially aging the steel to convert austinite to martensite. Anyway, he said it wouldn't result in a longer barrel life, but it does reduce stresses created by an undesirable balance of austinite and martensite by converting one to the other. And by reducing these stresses using cryo, he gets a straighter ream, and thus a straighter bore in his barrels.

Anyway, I tried to take notes as best I could. Hope I didn't screw up too bad, and hope the info is of use.

I wish to publicly thank both Boots Obermeyer and Jack Krieger for taking time out of their busy schedules to give us an education. It was an honor to meet them both.
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 10:12:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

AWESOME POSTS! I am more thankful than you can imagine.

Keep it coming. This is what makes S/C totally Rock the community
 

JR,
Serious Post, I meant the 10X/5R type rifling. Are Sierra Match Kings in the "Too Skinny" jacket category? 75 degrees man I'm freezing in my Carhart.
 

ofta work :-(
 

Chao

new age language for the day:
crowsplosion - obvious
CATSPLOSION (a Ha! for "He who stalks at night" in CT)
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 10:59:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.21)

i am long out of playing with puppets, but this guy is on my wish list just to have him standing on my desk.

t

Sniper figure, click here ! <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 11:07:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.211)

Several strokes with a Hoppies soaked brush followed by two or three Hoppies soaked patches. Let the bore marinate overnight. Push a Hoppies soaked patch through. Let marinate again. Push a Hoppies soaked patch through. If there is any green on the patch repeat as necessary. With my Hart barrels I never have a problem "getting the green out". Surface finish is a factor I guess.

I dry out my bore when finished. This way I know my condidions for a cold bore shot. I guess I've been pretty lucky because I've never had much variance from cold bore to fouled bore POI.

When the rifle stops grouping well consider replacing the barrel. As someone said earlier, "Barrels are consumables."

By the way, I use a "Patch Hog". It is a great device and keeps things neat.

I've attended a number of 1,000 yard benchrest matches. The cleaning rituals are pretty complex. It is interesting to note that almost every shooter has his own method which is slightly different from the next guy.

Ref: Accurate Rifle Magazine

This last issue was interesting. The Marines in the Recce. outfit have just about all the gee-wizz gear you could imagine. One interesting item was a wrist mounted commercial GPS...mmmmmm...got me thinking. I guess I'm just a "gear queer". Time to come out of the closet on that.

Ref: Gooch

Good to hear from you. We know you're busy but when you don't write and don't call we get to thinking you don't love us anymore. ;-)
Hopefully when you've got that range completed we can come on down to 'bama and make a lead deposit.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 11:40:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Two Shoes
Dos Sopatos
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 12:26:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.59)

Steve (hockypuck)...
>"NO comments about CRS Syndrome, OK????"<
I was gonna make a comment, but I forgot what it was!

What town is the "Reade Range" near... keep us posted.
I might come to it...but 14.5 pounds... a friggin featherweight riffle!
 

Torsten...
It's OK for men to have dollies these days... it's touchie-feelie, dude-ski.
When you find a source, get me one too... I wanna be a "NOW" kinda guy, too ;)

What happened to the "Sniper fu" teeshirts?? Did my customs snag them??

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 13:02:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.66)

I like to clean my rifles the school way. Clean the action. Clean the chamber. Clean the barrel every 3000 rounds or so unless you've been swimming with it. This way you always know how the cold bore will shoot. And log it....
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 13:20:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Alan..
We do agree, I sometimes think it would be interesting to try some of the old wildcats with the new powders we have today.

Geoff..
If you have a factory barrel don't even give it a 2nd thought. JBs won't hurt them, there already junk(HA). I use it on my factory barrels to break them in or when I get a used rifle I clean it up with JBs.

I like it for a new factory rifle because it gets down in there and cleans out the machine oil and crap thats left in there during the forging process and test firing, I hate to start off breaking in the barrel right over all that crap as a base.

I think what JR and the rest of us are talking about is the after market barrels. These are as smooth as a glass and clean up in a snap.

I guess what made a believer out of me was when I used it on my Hart barrel as a test after talking to Gary Schneider (Schneider Barrels). There was a definate difference in the fouling until it "Seated" back in again so I know it has to be doing something in there. I see no reason to use it for other than the occasional very heavy fouling or in factory rifles with rough bores. Just my 2 cents worth.

On Sweets 7.62 eating up barrels, once again I don't know, but I took a piece of a stanless barrel that I use as a seating depth gauge and dropped it into a film canister full of Sweets and let it set for a week and could see no difference in it at all. I know this is not scientific by any means but it came out just as shiny and smooth as the day I put it in.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 13:37:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

For sniper stuff I dont use Molly and the darn bbls I use are so smouth inside I dont need JB to get the copper out, unless I have shot a shit load and am too tired to wait for the cooper removers to work. Such as I shot 100 plus rounds and want to get the rifle clean quick so I can have a beer or six with the guys. Then I use the JB. When I go to the once or twice a week range shoots I clean with good old Hoppes BR, Shooters Choice and Sweets. Followed by a wipe out with Hoppes Number 9 and then a light oil to make certain I did not leave anything in the bore that will hurt it. JB's is my lazy way when I have damm slings to make or she who must be listened too starts yelling we have to go somewhere.

While we are at it I use a light grease on the locking lugs. I like Rig Stainless Steel Lube or the good old Plasti Lube for M14's for this.

I have not seen a problem with JB's so I still use it but I have started to be more cautious with it. On the having to break in the bbl again after useing JB's. From what I have seen I think this is BS! BUt honestly I have not spent nights wondering if my bbl is going to look like crap if I use JB's. My old M40 McMillan Rifle has had many a bottle of JB's down the bore and it saw 10,000 rds before I stopped counting on it. Honestly I gave up on it because if I missed with that many logged rounds some "Expert" would have killed me in court for not replacing it. I dont have the heart to f with my old McMillan rifle so it stands as is.

Bravo clear on this now?

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 13:54:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

Others have suggested the custom shop, but that is probably expensive, which negates why I would buy this rifle to begin with. If I went custom I would have Michelle Gallagher's Stolle with a Krieger or Obermeyer in 6.5-284 clothed in McMillan. That girl shot a 4.5" x 6.5" group in the 1000 yard shoot off last year for the Wimbledon cup....prone with a sling! Not long ago that would have been a decent benchrest group.
Todd <reaboy@cfu.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 14:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.43.65.245)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 14:33:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

My ring don't need lapping, but you action mighr make the base crooked which will make my rings crooked. Like a house, its all in the foundation.

JR...NOT a flame...NOT a flame...its ok, just opinions.

As i said do what works for you (thats all of you, nnor just JR)
and keep it a secret. cuts down on the whinning!

Gooch, sorry we did not hok up, see ya.

Kepp it dry everybody

Marty
martin <badgerord@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 15:07:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.126.30.131)

I can take the same rifle and use different brass and the same exact loads and the better brass will consistantly group and shoot better. I can take factory Laupa and it will shoot right with my sorted, neck turned, primer pocket cut brass and thats saying a lot. I had trouble getting consistant groups out of my 260 with Remington brass then I sized down some of my 308 Laupa and it was a different rifle.

I think the attention to detail is very important esp. the further out you go. Things like bullet run out, extreme spreads and brass inconsistancy really start to show up then
 

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 16:30:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Best low profile, no snag, night sights for Springfield Compact .45? Also need recommendation for a good smith in northern VA to do the work. Thanks.
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 17:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

The lapping bar you will use will have a compound on it that is layered by how ever clsoe you can make it.

The bar itself is cut on a similar machine to the one Badger uses so the tolerences should be about the same.

You will but uneven pressure on the bar as you slide it back and forth so that is a new varible

The scope may or may not have a perfectly straight tube but have you ever checked that?

Either way tollerences add up but when it is all said and done what have you gained with lapping? Has anyone seen a vast improvement from lapping? My rifles all shoot better than anyone here so why bother?

So the trade off is who will put in more added tolerence, you lapping away or two machine cuts. I will stick with the two machinecuts for my sniper rifles. I have never had a problem and fell I will improve my shooting far more with trigger time thanlapping time.

I can see why you would lap crappy rings to make them closer but get the good stuff and call it quits.

I think far to much has been made of this.

Dope it
Dial it
Dump it

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 18:09:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

I bought a couple of videos through the Military Book Club a short while back. Andy and I watched them with great anticipation. The shotgun video made at Gun Site was pretty good but the Sniper thing was "the Yawn Patrol"....It was all about the police comp. held in Florida. There wasn't any training value to the video at all.

I know there is a review section here but I wanted to ask you guys. Are there any Sniper videos worth a hoot as far as training goes? What videos have you found to be worthwhile?

It just started snowing here....eeeeeaaaachhhhkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 19:45:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Only saw your note about the SA 5.56 ammo. As I've said before, I will not have much to do with the current SA military, and as such I cnanot say much for their ammo either.

But, when I was in the military (87/88) I went through many rounds. Being an officer had certain advantages. When a day was over at the range we had our troops load all the broken boxes of ammo in whatever available magazines. And we let rip. Single-shot, semi-auto and full auto - nice feeling to let a 50-round magazine rip out at full auto. I shot many rounds (thousands) that way - and I NEVER had a misfire. And never when I was involved in range-work myself either. And I don't recall very many on the range from the troops either. There were some, but very, very few - but then, we were engaged in a war. Being artillery we probably didn't shoot as much as for example the infantry did, but I know I shot many thousands of rounds. And I'll lie if I say that at that time I was the best at properly looking after my rifle! :-(

I do know that the quality of PMP's commercial ammo has gone up quite dramatically, so I would find it strange if their military ammo has taken a nose-dive, but it is probably possible.

Hope your rifle just had a bad day, and that the rest shoot fine.

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 19:51:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.95)

While Jack Daniels and I were quietly sharing thoughts on barrel life as I perused the Machining Source Book (ASM), it struck me that there have been extraordinary advances in high temperature ceramic metal matrix compounds in the last few years, particularly the beryllium-ceramic complexes. With the ability to now HIP mold and machine these ceramic matrix materials to exceptionally fine tolerances, would it not be possible to manufacture a steel barrel with a metal-ceramic matrix insert in the breech end consisting of the chamber, leade and first few inches of the tube? I can envision an insert similar to the AR-15 barrel extension. The insert would absorb the majority of the superheated flame upon cartridge firing, shielding the steel of the barrel from the flame erosion that is so detrimental to barrels. You could even have addition sets of inserts to replace your eroded insert or change to different calibers having the same bolt face. I am not sure if a coating on a steel insert would be as effective as a solid CMM insert. Stainless barrel, carbon fiber outer wrap and ceramic insert. Whew?. We are rolling now! Just some thoughts.

T? saw the Elite Forces figure also. Very nice. Their Ranger figure is also fine. I am currently building a 1/6 scale A3 stocked Remington 700 for my wife's GI Joe sniper. Have the stock, action, barrel and scope made (Unertl). Also made a Mark 4 just in case. Scope mounts and trigger guard are a major pain. Waiting to buy a rotary table.

Patron' Lito and I had a difference of opinion on lapping a while ago while advising the Good Jen (Where is she BTW?? Did she get her system up and running?). I buy the best and don't lap. I'm hard on equipment and don't fret over scuffs and scrapes. That's why God made paint. The only way to do it is to assemble your system on the action and then machine lap the rings indicated off the bolt race. Then the rings are centered on THAT ACTION ONLY and you are done. You will need a slightly undersized ring set to make it work perfectly.

JB works great on factory barrels. Hart barrels don't need it, mine only lightly foul and Hoppes - Shooters Choice - Sweets work fine.

Be safe.
 
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater , FL, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 22:32:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.204.172)

Would the ceramic hold up to the immense pressures?? It might be hard as hell, but there is a tensile strength limit, both high and low, that needs to be considered at that end of the pipe. Too high, shatter your barrel, too low, split your barrel.

JR
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 22:47:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 00:08:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.55)

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 01:42:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.149.20)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 01:57:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Folks,
Those who've been asking about the accuracy of the Fulton Armory Special
Police Rifle tactical bolt gun, here are the results, hot off the presses
from the July 2001 issus of Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement:
Performance
Load Velocity Small Gp Lge Gp Ave
Black Hills 168 JHP 2652 0.28 0.51 0.39
Black Hills 175 JHP 2604 0.36 0.58 0.44
Federal 168 .308M 2598 0.42 0.54 0.48
Federal 165 Tactical 2696 1.16 1.43 1.34
Hornady 110 TAP 3168 0.55 0.61 0.58
Hornady 168 TAP 2707 0.40 0.64 0.42

Did you see that? 0.28 to 0.51 inches with Black Hills 168 JHP? Average of
five three-shot groups of .39 inches?
Unbelieveable!
With a CHROME BORE that will last a lifetime, heck, several lifetimes!
Clint ain't getting my sample back, no way, no how!
In stock, ready to ship!
Best regards,
Walt Kuleck
Fulton Armory Webmaster
http://www.fulton-armory.com
 
 

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 03:15:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

I received the IOR/Meopta Hermes 1 spotting scope with 20-45X ocular and the carrying bag two weeks ago. The scope is MARVELOUS :-)

I do not know whether Leupold 12-40X60 is better or worse than this scope, but I can not come up with any improvements. The picture quality is phenomenal, zoom works really well and focusing even better, all controls are in the ocular so you can cover the scope body any way you want to. I do not have a proper tripod yet so I have mostly been using it as hand held with 20-25X. The 45 grade angled ocular is just fine as it is. I can not wait until I get the proper tripod for it.

So if you are looking for a good compact spotting scope with a zoom, I can confirm that Hermes 1 is top notch. At least as good as Kowa 61X series, but waterproof and with a 70 mm lense :-)

I will keep my old Russian 20-50X50 compact spotting scope as a knock-about scope for field use, but if I want to see something really well I will bring my Hermes 1.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 03:30:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.123.247)

Thanks for the update.

Two shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 04:30:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.58)

FN Herstal Special Police Rifle
Leupold Vari-X III 8.5 - 25 X 40 scope
Leupold Standard bases & rings (Win M70, rev. rear)
Harris SBRM Bipod, 6" - 9" with notched legs
TIS Precision Model One Sling w/Armcuff Upgrade
(This item ordered, see note above)

I have only fired 96 rounds with this rifle. Several different loads and the best groups (the last 4 groups, 4 shots each) were with Federal GM308M2 (175 gr. SMK). Four shot groups because that's what the magazine holds. More about that in a moment. Trigger is 6 1/2 to 7 pounds, and will be attended to shortly.

Groups fired from sandbags on concrete bench at 100 yards. I haven't converted to decimal (no interest in math), but the outside measurements are: 1/2" (1), 9/16" (2) and 5/8" (1). Subtract a bullet diameter from those to get group size. Not bad for an old plinker, if I do say so myself.

Now, about the magazine. This rifle has no hinged floorplate, the bottom of the mag protrudes slightly from the stock, with the release in front of the mag well. When loaded with three or four rounds, the last round jams every time with this rifle. It works fine with one or two. The rifle has been at the dealer for two days waiting for the local rep to look it over, he has been out of town. (He's a good guy, I know him, by the way.) I hope to find out tomorrow if it's just a magazine problem or something else. I'll let you know.

You might want to read, or reread, Scott Powers' article "Detachable Magazines, Plague or Pleasure?" in the Articles and Commentary section on this site. It seems quite possible his cautionary statements about DM's apply to this rifle. As you might imagine, I've got mixed feelings about this one.
 
 

PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 06:30:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.163)

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater , FL, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 09:55:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.204.172)

five THREE shot groups? Who are they kidding? (Not a flame at you)

I hate math, and I know its either five 5 shot groups, or five 10 shot groups minimum to get decent facts. They wouldn't happen to be using the Lahti rifle rest for the T&E too would they?

By the way hows that semi-auto rifle project coming of yours along? What was it again, a 6.5mm/ FN action conversion?
 
 

Hexa,
Right on with the IOR Hermes, its a VERY nice scope
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 10:47:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.43)

From the sound of it, it appears the world is beating a path to your door. From one small business owner to another, congratulations.

After all I've read about your sling, I'm certainly looking forward to mine. I check my porch every day to see if there's a package waiting for me. Hopefully, my big beast of a dog hasn't scared the UPS/FedEx guy away.
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 14:11:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Great quality, very bright....

Zero will have to be accepted where it falls elevation wise. Front sights available in .190/.180/.175 heights.

My .180 shoots 2" low at 10 yards. It needs to be .036 lower to be right on.

I compensate by putting the dot on the desired POI.

"Close enough for Government Work."

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 14:41:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

All the night sights I've seen were easily visible to potential opponents. Maybe there's something out I haven't seen.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 15:26:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Never much thought about that.

What's the general consensus on radio-luminous handgun sights??

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 17:08:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Same gun, Dude... Fulton implies that it's built for them (the "Fulton" police rifle), but it is the FN... good riffle.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 19:14:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

Re: the FN Special Police Rifle. Do you know if Winchester is building this for FN to market or is FN actually doing the building on the Winchester Classic actions?
Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 20:47:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.180.4.102)

Undude - Your slings impressed the hell out the guys at the sportsmans club this past weekend. Hope you can find a seemstress in short order.

Kevin of the GWN - Would you PLEEEEEAAASSSSSEE stop sending the S-SNOW and cold down here, the joke is getting old. LOL

Later

Titan
 

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 22:05:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

????????????????????

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 22:06:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

The operative language is as follows:

"Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act . . . ., law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, and law enforcement agencies of any State . . . and from a person not otherwise prohbited by Federal, State or local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for teh sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the repaired firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind or type on return from the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer to that person. The shipper must affix a UPS lable . . . Handguns, as defined by the Acts, will only be accepted for transportation in UPS Next Day Air Services, but will not be accdepted for transportation via UPS letter Centers, Internet Shippment ior in response to a One-Time Pickup or for On-Call Pickup Service. Firearms, including handguns, will not be accepted when presented for shipment at a UPS Authorized Shipping Outlet or to a UPS Commercial Counter. . . .

The last sentence makes it impossible to ship by a private person.

So, effectively, to ship a firearm for repair, if you want to use UPS, you must go through a dealer.

Would like to know if others have experienced this problem and what is the solution, other than paying a dealer to do what you have a legal right to do yourself.
 
 
 

Craig Johnson <cjohnson@pblutah.com>
Salt Lake City, UT, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 22:20:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.173.65.95)

Paul...
The action is "rough" (your words), because it is a tactical riffle, not a sporter... all the tactical riffles are "rough"!
Why would you get one of these, instead of a PSS... common' Dude, how long have you been reading this site? Bunches of guys have commented on the poor quality of Rem PSS's in the last few years... you get a PSS, you may get a POS!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 23:12:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)

Craig, you can play that game, I am not....the last transfer I did FFL to FFL, cost me $70.36............a riffle.
Granted, this was going eventually to an individual, so the law was kept...I always keep the law.

On the Ooops declaration, If you are sending a weapon to a / the manufacturer ( rifle).
Then I say ship it........kinda like don't ask don't tell.
Ain't none of their damn business.( As long as it's to the Manufacturer)..................UPS ain't the LAW..........
Which, by LAW, can ship back to you ONLY..........( here comes Stanley!!).
Bottom line, as you said.....OOops is making law by fiat.

FN Police Special........neat rifle, had one, gave it back to the owner..the detachable mag appeared to have a flaw, the feed lips were TOO flexible, and I saw potential problems here.
Good idea, now someone just has to take the time to develop a REAL detach that is RELIABLE....

A French firm, "Lord help us", now owns USRAC, Browning, and several others I can't remember...I believe it's Giatt???........HUGE def contractor.........
Next thing, Norinco will be making Big green's barrels!!!

Two Shoes
 

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 23:22:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.166)

But you can loose magazines in the field (I always do!), they can get dropped when you are refilling them, and Murphy will steer it to the nearest mud puddle, even in the Sahara Desert!

Another consideration is the feed system.
The push feed bolt (Stealth) will pick up the cartridge if you just throw it in the port... it's easy to keep shooting by grabing rounds and dropping them in the port... even with heavy gloves, in snow.
If you need a "special round" (like AP, or "TAP" etc), it's easy to just push it in, on top of the other loads, and shoot it, then you are automatically back to the original loads... The "Push feed" is very user friendly!

Even in long strings of shots (like an "F" class match), a shooter with a 5 round push feed rifle, can shoot 10 rounds as fast as a shooter with a magazine rifle, and pre loaded magazines... maybe faster!

The Claw feed (Classic style) is a bit different... and the presence of a detachable magazine adds greatly to the problem.
To load a single round into a Claw feed, it MUST be pushed down into the feed (magazine) system, or the claw won't grab it, and the round will get pushed into the chamber, and won't come out, unless poked out with a cleaning rod... very bad!
If you have a classic with a standard built, non-detachable, magazine, you do it once, and you remember in the future... but with a detachable magazine, you can NOT load the magazine when it's in the rifle, so you...

1 - If you run dry, you can't just keep loading one at a time to finish. You MUST stop shooting, and reload, before continuing.

2 - You can't load a special round like AP, or "TAP" while shooting regular loads, you must remove the magazine, and load the special round in the mag and replace it, or swap off to a seperate mag with "specials"... shoot one, then swap back to the orginal mag...
All very time consuming, and add to the posibility of failure (Murphy).

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 00:18:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)

Best use of night sights is helping you find your gun in the dark; like on a motel bedside table or in a tent while camping!!

My.02 worth

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 00:19:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.240.41)

Marc
Marc Ingram <Snarl@clds.net>
Hinesville, GA, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 00:49:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.74.247.20)

Ask Cory Trapp.

So save the lame sarcasm. This isn't arm chair crap.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 01:21:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Just playing devil's advocate.

I have read for a while about the quality control problems with the PSS, but never anything specific (at least that I can recall). What are the problems with the PSS? I'm not planning to ever buy a PSS but you have to admit, they are everywhere.

Semper Fi Dogs
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
NO-VA, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 01:23:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.91.133.209)

I am 99% sure this is our stock, am 0% sure if it is our mag system. I don't think we make the detach mag for the '64's yet, I haven't heard anything of it, so I'll say no, it isn't our mag system. Best thing to do is call FN, they'll give ya the scoop.

later
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 01:24:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

You can get a good one, or you can get a dog... the problem is that Rem won't do anything about a dog... they say a 2" group @ 100yds is fine, a 10 pound trigger is their setting, as long as the barrel isn't touching the side of the channel it's in spec... yadda, yadda, yadda.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 02:31:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.138)

It IS one of the H-S Precision "Pro" series... a copy of the Winchester "Marksman" stock... exactly the same as the Stealth.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 02:38:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.138)

Got the FN back today, but it'll be several days before I can go to the range to check it out. The story is the magazine needed to be cleaned. We'll see!

Like I told Ken when I registered here, I'm more lurker than participant. But I have to say the "New Duty Roster" doesn't take as long to read through, and seems to contain even more information. (Maybe that's because the good info isn't diluted with BS.)

Best regards to all of you.
 

PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 03:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.199)

Two Shoes

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 03:51:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.56)

George, Marty, I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said 'sharp corners' on the lands. I know the 5r is radiused at the land/groove junction. I thought you guys meant the top of the land was radiused!! 10x barrels use the same theory.
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 04:27:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

The factory trigger/settings are pretty poor, although it didn't seem like 10 lbs. The timney in my 280 beats it seven ways to sunday. Didn't get the DM because didn't make sense to me at the time and I've had no magazine feed problems. I did run into sticky ejection when I shot some surplus Nato 7.62 by mistake (don't laugh). I really do like that HS stock, especially the palmswell. It dissipates heat pretty well, although I take care not to get it too hot.

Overall, for the money I paid, I'm happy. It is not an HS Precision quality rifle, but then, I neither expected it nor paid for it. I'm a little jaundiced by this time, though, and expect to have to "accurize" most factory rifles to some extent. (Excepting the real good stick makers, of course. Their rifles had better be well under MOA and serve me breakfast in bed too....)
doug <doug@intertrust.com>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 04:31:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.107.176.254)

Just finished replying to Boots Obermeyer's last post. He mentions a problem with Leupold scopes having floating "erectors". Causing the scope to shift impact without you making turret changes. He did not mention models involved.

Haven't seen that manifest itself in my Luppie Vari-X III's or MK IV's. Anyone out there seen or aware of the issue? Gooch-san, Undude, Sinister any comments?

'Lito, you and Garth Kendig are "tight". Any input?

By the way, the "erector" problem is NOT something I just dreamed up, because I turned 50, either!

Also, gently prodded him about when some production is going to surface. I'm still waiting for 6.5 barrels and a chrome moly 1:10" twist .30 cal tube. They've been on order 2 + years, but worth waiting for...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 05:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.18)

First - the Nor-Cal Precision Website has now officially completed its overhaul.

Tonight I finished the very last part of it, the photographs page. ( http://www.norcalprecision.com/gunpics.html
) My graphic artist has taken all of the photos and redone them, and there are some new ones up as well. I decided for the time being not to split up the thumbnails (you can click for larger images) but am wondering if the load time is too great for most of you.

If you have not been by http://www.norcalprecision.com/ in a while, please drop by and have a look.... I am soliciting feedback and comments on the site layout, look and organization as well.

On a semi-related subject, I'd like to thank those of you who wrote me promising to send in testimonials for Jerry Rice's work. I have about 5 people now who have said that they would be sending me somehting to post and I really appreciate it. My target for this section is 10 so if you have one of Nor-Cal Precision's products, please write me and let me know if you are willing to do a little writeup for us. I'll post here when that section goes live.

Can't wait for this weekend, I am gonna go burn some .308 Gold Medal Match at the range. It has been WAYYYYyyyyyyy too long since I have had any serious trigger time on my rifle and man do I need to step away from this computer! Hope these rusty fingers don't get laughed off the range :-)

Take care folks,
Charles - Webmaster for Tactical Intervention & Nor-Cal Precision <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 08:40:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 12:16:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Night sights work great. I have PT night sights with contrasting blue green on a couple guns and you can align them quick and even while half asleep. Left thumb works great for pressing on target quick but when your half asleep they go hand and hand with the sights. If you hold your gun in a ready close to right arm pit ready to press I don't think anyone will see your sights or get the drop on you. It's your choice...
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 12:58:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Some have reported that replacing the desicant pack in the scope box with two viagra seems to help the floating erector problem you mentioned.
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 13:13:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.94)

Now a few guys jumped on you about bad guys being able to see the sites and disagreed with you. From my point of view it is a dual edged sword. Anyone that is anywhere behind the sites will see you glowing in the dark. This becomes a problem in searching as you always cover the area you are searching with your weapon, so its not like the only person with a rear view of the sites is you or your team mates. I watch building search exercises and say their they are all the time by seeing the sites. It is a problem. One thing I do, when the the situation permits, is go to one handed and cover the front site with my off hand, if I am worried about someone seeing the sites and I am in sstealth mode. This is not a shooting position. It is a sneaky way to get there.

Pablito, I completely disagree with your assesment of the PSS. Big surprize Huh.LOL The rifles I see all shoot 3 shot groups under 1moa. I ahd one that was a piece of crap but sent it back and it was fixed. I still find them to be the best out of the box sniper rifle for police on the market. Trouble is they are getting so expensive that you might as well get a real good one made by George Gardner or Jerry Rice. Now before you go off on me I know Winchester has the best factory bbl currently. I am looking at all around use.

Titan, thank you for the kind words.

Charles, greta news on the NorCal site. It looks great!

Mike/Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 14:07:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

I Believe that the problem you experienced in because UPS has different classifications for the drop off locations. They set the rules as to which locations will be authorized to accept firearms for shipment and "Shipping Outlet" and "Commercial Counter" are not.

You will have to find their local "Customer Counter" for the shipment. For a description of the various locations you can go to, http://www.ups.com/using/services/locate/locate_info.html (sorry, no link this morning, brain not fully engaged).

Hope this clears things up a little for everyone.
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 14:41:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.41.232)

I think I will go with the front sight (night sight)only.

Regarding bad guys seeing the sights, reminds me of one of Murphy's Laws of Combat:

"Tracers work both ways."

Thoughts on Hensoldt riflescopes???
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
NO-VA, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 15:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

Given that pistol fights are generally close range suprise engagements, having night sights that can be seen by the BG poses scant hazard. Unless you are operating in a stealth search mode against a dark-adapted and smart opponent, it's not really a problem. We do a lot of Simunitions work and I can't ever recall anyone managing to get the drop on someone because of the night sights on a gun.

If your firing stroke is well programmed, you'll shoot just fine even when it's too dark to shoot without a light. During the 250 basic pistol class, most students are suprised to find they shoot BETTER in the dark. There are less distractions and they concentrate better on the stroke and trigger press, we see smaller groups all the time.

Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 15:39:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

On the snow front - I spent the last week at Panorama skiing (and it was melting badly) so I was doing a snow dance trying to keep it here.
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 15:51:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.140)

My Winchester will beat up your Remington POS-PSS... even MY Remington will beat up your POS-PSS, and my 50BMG will beat up your 50... and you rattle on a stalk and they can hear you coming for miles away, and your ghilli suit is in "Blond Floozie" camoflague for Hollywood Blvd!... so there ;)))))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 15:58:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.99)

Pablito, damm you I cant stop laughing.

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 16:40:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

I did in fact have the privilege of coaching in two of last years Master's series pistol classes. Jeff may not be so well physically, but he's still working fine mentally. Being "rode hard and put up wet" so many times has taken a toll. I had not even been onsite for more than 5 years when Buz Mills took over. I'm back teaching now and the new facilities are simply wonderful. If you've not been by in a while, you should really drop in if you are in the area.
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 17:25:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

So, I'm thinking 24-inch light sporter contour in 6.5 x55, but am uncertain as to the optimum twist. The heaviest bullet would be 140 grain, both Federal match and their premium hunting rounds. The shooting would occur at sea level, 70 to 80 degrees, low humid during offseason, 4000 to 7000 feet, 30 to 60 degrees, low humid, during huntin' season.

What would you learned gentlemen suggest for the twist rate for this?
doug <doug@intertrust.com>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 17:50:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.3.163.3)

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 18:22:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

Actually, thats the MAS 49-56 project I think you are speaking of. I have FN-49 donor rifle here to work with, but went with the French gun first: more promicing in some respects and less work to get there.

Lesse, where am I at now:

The MAS has not changed. The junker sporter weight barrel I fitted as a test piece has not blown up, proving I have some idea of how to fit a barrel. The Douglas air gauge blank awaits. Also in the wings:

Steyr M-95 straight-pull in 7.62x54R: barrel mostly fitted, needs final finish ream.

Chech VZ-52 carbine project: need to inlet stock blank and begin shaping. Will use originial 7.62x45 barrel for now: the press in fit they use is a bitch to work with. Nice cartrige, but the logistics are, erm, problematic. Would like to go to a .35 Remington-based wildcat of my own design (6.5 Simpson StraightShooter! :-) but, not this week. BTW, for that sort of wierdness, CH/4D and Dave Manson seem to work together on these things a lot. They will get my business in the future, base on past experience.

.50 BMG: Breech block is bored, ready to begin threading. This has my lathe tied up, so nothing else happens until this is finished.

Graduate shool...oh,yeah, THAT! :-) On track for three out of three As. To mnake this happen, other projects have been a tad neglected, as one might imagine. Maymester is coming up, which I will have off (yay!) and expect to get in a little lathe time then .

Pam OS PDA:

The other day I put in a request for a URL to the place that sells the "sniper software" for the Palm Pilot. Well, I am shocked to note that nobody here managed to come up with it for me. Shame on you guys. I go to braggin on y'all and you let me down. :-) Seriously, if anybody has it, please let me know. I bought a Handspring Visor Delux the other day it is rapidly taking over a number of brain functions for me. Any other Palm OS software that has applications in the ballisics area would be appreciated as well.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 23:33:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

I know several high level code writers (and shooters) that have tried to write ballistic programs for the palms... and thay all say the palm units are too stupid to run Ballistic programs.

There are some guys that are using a simple "Excel" type program called "Quicksheet":

http://www.cesinc.com/quicksheet/

But, you have to enter all the stuff, and it doesn't do anything for you... and the guys that were trying it, have quit.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 20, 2001 at 23:58:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.18)

thanks for the confirmation. Some of the barrel makers I'm considering list that 1 in 8" twist for the 6.5, but I wanted to ping the wisdom of this board for some independant opinions in the absence of any knowledge of my own.

btw, the UPS man just staggered in with my Wild TM2 optical rangefinder. Dang thing is heavy. I guess my long range 338 is now a crew-served weapon system...holy mackarel.
doug <doug@intertrust.com>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 02:02:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.3.163.3)

1/8" should stabilize the 6.5's above 120grain just fine. Remember the 6.5 x 55's? They run a 7.87" twist rate used to run an 8.66" twist rate, damned metric conversion, I'm getting around 9 on my twist calculator, so 8 should definitely be sufficient.

With this twist rate thread goin',

I spoke to a knowledgeable guy today that came up with the same calculations as I, the .308 dia bullet out of the .308 Win comes up to a 12.6" rate to stabilize the 175 mk, so the 12" rate should be all right for this bullet, a 13 will work for 155 palma's but it's too damned close. BUT, 10" is also appropriate, even though you should maybe try the 11-12" range beforehand. 'lito, I don't wanna get on this trip again.

Hey,

Pagin' back thru the Roy Dunlap book of Gunsmithing, and even a few notes in Hatcher's, they rate a slower twist rate for the Magnum 30 calibers than the .308's. They rate the win mag(after Hatcher's time) wby's and H&H at slower 12-14" twists than the standard 10" we use nowadays. Why would this be?? heheheh...

later
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 02:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Clean after every shot, good method(no flame). Keeps us barrelmakers in business. Depends on the barrel, as far as the powder residue settling in, but I'd just make sure it was oiled before I threw her in the rack. I'd take more time shooting than cleaning, myself.

later
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 02:48:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Gavan...
That's the first time I've heard that one... and if it's true, I need a lot of new barrels. One of my most accurate riffles (Stainless barrel), was put away FILTHY, and wasn't cleaned for about 20 years (it was an accident).
When I opened it, there was white, and green fur in the barrel... a two day soak with #9, brushing, and patching, and it shoots 1/4 to 1/3 all day.

JR...
No arguement... I just do what works for me.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 03:10:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.104)

Thanks for the info. The .50 BMG stuff we were getting was rather mixed at best. We are using another source. I got some 5.56 made in '83 from South Africa. It seems the primers are quite hard. My JP trigger/hammer system is for target stuff only...from now on.
 

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 03:43:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.100)

basicly listening & learning
Wade <slimey_limey1960@yahoo.com>
Castle Rock, wa, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 03:58:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.187.54.157)

There IS a Sky Spirit!!

-------------------------------------------------------------
By CHRISTOPHER NEWTON
.c The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) - Gun-control advocate Sarah Brady disclosed Friday night that she has been battling lung cancer for at least a year.

Mrs. Brady, 59, said on CNN's "Larry King Live" that the original tumor that doctors discovered in her lung has disappeared, but two
spots remain in the same lung. She did not say when she was diagnosed but said she had non-small cell carcinoma - a slow-moving form of cancer.

"I've never been sick and I've never had symptoms," Mrs. Brady said, sitting by her husband, Jim, the former White House press secretary. "I have not been given a death sentence. I am far from that."

Mrs. Brady, a lifelong smoker, said she is still smoking, though not as much the two packs a day she once smoked.

"It's the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with," said Mrs. Brady. "I try not to smoke, but from time to time I do. ... I am guilty of smoking and knowing the facts all these years.

Mrs. Brady, who wore a blonde wig on the program, said she lost her hair some time ago as a result of chemotherapy. "When it came out, it really came out in droves," she said.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 08:00:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.72)

I just got a Dillon Rapid Trim 1200B Case Trimmer.
In the instructions it says, "Size a case and check it for shoulder length in a case gage."

I've been reloading for almost 30 years and I have never "checked" my resized cases for shoulder length.

I called Dillon and the guy on the phone said that it was a "must" and that I've been very lucky all these years not to have had a headspace problem. He went on to say that no resizing die will ever give you the proper shoulder length if all you do is screw it down to the shell holder and back it off a little.

I ordered a case gage so I could do this check but I'm still bewildered by all of this.

Now I don't know what to think.

I'm a little reluctant to post this because it really makes me sound like an dunce.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 12:57:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

I have the same thing, but haven't set it up yet.
I was told that the Dillon FL dies weren't the standard length, and had to be "set up".
I find that hard to believe, as SAAMI standards are pretty rough, and Dillon IS a member of SAAMI.
It may just be a warning, to avoid legal liability problems... same as the "read the instructions" things on some guns... I'll check mine, and get back to you.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 13:25:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.139)

We did this topic a ways back - The Datum line thing, right?

'Lito?

If you full length resize & trim to "spec length" this should not be a big-big problem.
About a nickle thickness is the start measurement between the shellholder and die base. I believe Reddings Competition shellholders do the same thing, extend the distance and snug up the case shoulder/chamber fit.

Hope this makes sense, my brain & eyes are still pre-caffinating.
 

PS - Has Anybody played with a new Savage Crackshot? I be looking for a trainer/(also Katdampfer) for the kids.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Its Honey-Doo Day! in , By-Gawd, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 13:40:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.34)

The item you need is an RCBS chamber Mic, cost around $35.00.

What this guy was refering to is when you set up the resizing die, (as you well know), the process moves the shoulder and sets your headspace in the process.

As Lito' says, he just CHA, the set up is the same for all dies.
What this guy is refering to is YOU actually don't KNOW what the headspace is, without measuring.

Typical new Sammi spec cases are set at -.004, when your dies are set up properly you don't want more than -.002.....

The problem comes in when you have fired your brass, and it get's blown out to +.001-006.....dependent on your chamber specs.

Then, if the die is not set properly, you can set the shoulder back to -.006, or more..and then on the next and succecssive firings your brass gets worked to death, from being excessively headspaced.

If you go the other way, then the case won't fit into your rifle, and this is of course as obvious as the day is long.
It's a good thing to check the HS on initial set up.

Also, the HS will change on different brass from rifle to rifle.
(Which you already are well aware).
A lot of folks make the mistake of resizing different brass in the same resize die, and don't realize that after they have done so, they wind up with brass with all different HS.....

This is why you need a Prec mic, to make sure you are not firing brass with excessive HS.

I do it for safety, but Mainly for consistency of my ammo.
If you have some rounds with -.002, and some with -.006, you got .004 of play, and this will cause inconsistentcy in your loads.
Of course, not to metion overworking your brass.

If you never resize, and just shoot fireformed, none of this applies.
Cause gun to gun, it will all stay the same.( Which again, I'm sure you know).
Sorry for the long post, maybe it will help others, if it doesn't shed some light on the subject for you......hope I wasn't to anal.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 14:03:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.165)

OK, Dude... listem up.
The Dillon FL dies are NOT... NOT standard length... I checked the .308, and .223... first time I've seen that in more years than I want to admit...

They are about 1/4" shorter than SAAMI spec... and must be set carefully. If you just screw them down to the shell holder, you will set the shoulder back, and have 0.250" of headspace... and when you shoot it, you will get a new look at the world (for a few seconds) before the lights go out :((

A headspace gauge might be a good idea.

If you getting ready to sizing military range pick-ups...
Do this! Take a new case, or new loaded round (not handload). Put it in the shell holder, and run it up in the press. Then screw the die down on the case, until it touches the case shoulder... back it off about 1/4 of a turn. Tighten the lock ring until you can just barely turn the die.
Now, lube a fired case, and run it up, size it, and remove it... wipe off the goo, and chamber it... it probably won't fit.
Turn the die in about 1/10th of a turn, and repeat... keep doing that until the case chambers just snug... then lock it down.
When you are done, there will be about 1/4 inch of space between the shell holder, and the bottom of the die, when the ram is all the way up...

If you are sizing brass from your own bolt gun, then blacken the inside of the shoulder on the die, with a candle, and do the above... when the removed case shows the FIRST signs of black on the shoulder, quit, and lock the die down.

Once you have this set... adjust the motor for the cutting length.
 

PeteR...
No datum line stuff here...
This is different Juju.

"Katdampfer"... I love it. If you see a nice "Ruggus Rattus" riffle, let me know. I'm looking for one, and looked at the "Chipmonk, and "Cricket"... both are POS :((

'Lito?
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 15:17:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.10)

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 15:41:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.188)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 15:45:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Thanx, I don't use the Dillon stuff, just Redding and a simpleton stage press.

Will let you know on the "Katdampher", oh He who stalks at night.

I just saw an ad for the Crackshot and it brought back a flood of memories. Falling and Rolling Blocks give me "half a chub" and are totally GNARLY for leisurely fun shoots.

back to work on the Honey-Doos. :-(
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Yard done before the Rain! in, By-Gawd, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 15:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.21)

NO RIFLE for the kid!

WHAT KIND OF PARENT ARE YOU???????

Even Torsten has one ready for "mini-T" hee hee
 

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Totally SHOCKED in, by-GaWd, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 15:52:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.21)

Youngsters rifles...looked at the Chipmonk and Crickett. Cute. One had a heavy barrel and scope. Looked like a tactical rifle for young'uns.

I learned on a 513 Rem bolt action. There being no small rifles back then. Personally, I'd like to see a mini-Pre-'64 M70 controlled feed action and magazine set up in a marksman style stock...or some such.
Should start the lads and ladies out right!

My own grandson just turned two so I'm going to be looking pretty soon myself.

Falling block design might work. Mini #1 or Browning single shot...hmmm. Got a few possibilites here...:-)

Like PeteR..."honey doos" are waiting. DAMMIT!

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 16:08:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.174)

http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/historicrifles/1885_lowwall.htm

schweeeet!
 

dodging the frying pan in
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
WHHOOPS HERE SHE COMES......, BUSTED IN BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 16:22:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.21)

'lito, You're as sick as me (the Brady Bitch). I worked for a guy in the '80's that was probably the worst person that I've ever met. He commited several acts of perjury that sent a couple of innocent employees to prison (not me), and embezzeled from clients and his own employees! He skipped to Florida when finally discovered in an attempt to avoid prosecution, but they found him. The State didn't prosecute because by that time he had the "Big C", and the Docs said he wasn't going to live long enough to stand trial. He did survive long enough (in the Hospital) for them to remove every piece of internal organ that wasn't absolutely nesessary to keep him alive, then one leg at a time - all the way to the hip. Kinda like in the Johnny Cash song "Piece By Piece". I felt sorry for him for about one millisecond - 'till I came to my senses and thought "F**K HIM".

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 22:09:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.4)

David <sog1zero@aol.com>
Cola, SC, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 23:22:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.171)

Thanks,
John
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@scoutsniper.com>
Springfield, Missouri, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2001 at 23:44:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.14.177.8)

David - go to http://www.ammoman.com ... there are several varieties of '06 ammo.

Ken :)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, va, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 00:02:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

CDC...Kids need both rifles and dogs. They each bring unique responsibilities into a kids life..I'd see to it, IMHO.
 

First rifle...Still have it...{ironocally][sp?] It's a 1911 Savage .22 short repeater that loads through the butt stock. Got it in about 1955 or 56 from my fathers great uncle Henry..Had the bbl.relined so my son could shoot it but the firing mechanism[as simple as it is] was just worn out and unsafe so it now resides on the gun room wall in a simple place of honor..The hours of enjoyment that rifle provided me as a young lad are priceless; I gaze upon it fondly every day.

To all...Start a kid shooting[yours or someone elses] they are the future of our freedom.
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
>22 country in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 03:41:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.240.41)

After 2 years of working on Jerry Rice's website, I finally took the plunge. I am the proud owner of a Nor-Cal Precision rifle, and just today was able to take it out to shoot groups for the very first time.

Keep in mind I am very new to rifle shooting, but have had a fair bit of training and experience with handguns.

Bottom line.... If I was female I'd offer to have Jerrys next child. I am SO impressed with this rifle it is not even funny. I have seriously shot bolt action precision rifle only 12 times (yes I keep a record).

Long story short was that I was shooting groups that were about 1/2 MOA all day at 100 yards. I did not clean as much as I should have, and even with the barrel 'dirty' I shot my best group of the day, a group a tad less than 1/2 inch. The rest were not too much larger and nothing was over 3/4. Even more suprising was that at the end of a particularly long shot sting there was almost NO evidenve of copper fouling. Guess I am a believer not only in Nor-Cal Precision's rifles, but also in the K&P barels Jerry bolts to his guns. Amazing.

Mike Miller of Tactical Intervention Specialists was with us there for the first half of the day.... I will be updating his site with a new sling he is introducing. Very nice product and got a lot of photos of him with it.

I am really glad Mike left when he did however as I let my girlfriend and partner at MemorablePlaces.com try the rice rifle. She has shot rifle exactly FOUR times in the last 6 months. How proud and humiliated I was when her first group measured just about 1/8 to 1/10 of an inch smaller than mine using the Nor-Cal Precision rifle! (Thank god her other groups opened up a little - it saved my ego!)

I am SOoooooooo happy with this rifle I just had to post a note here. You can see a photo of it by selecting this link.

Thanks Jerry! Ya made my week!

Charles (Webmaster for Nor-Cal Precision And Tactical Intervention Specialists) <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 06:05:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.205.151)

I've been working with my Armalite .223 Flat-top 24" SS rig.

It won't group for love nor money. I've tried a half dozen loads from 62 grain SS109s to 75 grain HPBTs. I relieved some scuffing between the handguard and the gas block which I thought might have been the problem but no luck.

It's topped with a Loopy M1LR in Badger Ultra-high rings.

Everything is tight and right but still the thing won't group.

I'm open to suggestions before I peddle the thing and move on.

Thanks,
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 13:08:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.52)

Get to know your WWII vets, they know what some of us don't!
 

Also, checked out the Winchester Stealths and almost traded for one. What is the preference between it and the new Pre-64 models?
 

A humbled Bolt, out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 14:30:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.55)

Winchester Stealth vs. New Pre-64 models?

I traded my New Pre-64 .308 for a Stealth to use at Badlands Training Center, and saved myself the trouble and expense of obtaining and installing a heavy barrel and a good stock. The Stealth comes with a very good (and fairly heavy) barrel, and is already glass-bedded in an H-S Precision "Marksman" stock.

Also, since it is a push-feed, I was able to drop single rounds into the open action and just close the bolt on them without having to first shove them down past the feed rails (which I HAD to do with the Pre-64). A convenience, to say the least.

The Stealth can be shot as well as anything short of a full-house Gardner, Rice, or McMillan rifle. On the other hand, it costs less.
Earl North <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
KC, MO, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 17:12:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 163.185.237.247)

On an unrelated note - I picked up a few of those snap-caps withe clear red plastic finish (.308). They work nicely, however the other day while cleaning the beast, I noticed red crap coming out of both the end of the barrel and extractor. So I took a little cheap solvent and wiped over one of the red snap caps. Sure enough, red came off. After a patch or two, it stopped. However, I'm not convinced its really done. Maybe after a day or two sitting in the chamber while in storage, more of the red gunk will wear off. I'm sure its not particularly bad for the barrel or the receiver, but...bleh.
Dave B <daveb196@home.com>
USA - Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 17:32:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.76)

Now what the heck to get for first deer rifle for a 12 year old ?

Wade in the wood's back to listening mode
Wade Knape <slimey_limey1960@yahoo.com>
castle rock, wa, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2001 at 17:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.187.51.24)

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Sitting pretty in .223ville in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 00:29:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.240.41)

I put together a small ballistics spreadsheet for a HP Jornada that Rod Ryan uses. The spreadsheet is pretty nice, does angles, wind, temp variation and elevation. Standard features of all ballistics programs such as BC, projectile weight, velocity, sight height. Outputs to the screen in inches, MOA and Mil for drop and/or mover holdoff(s). The current problem is that the Jornada is fairly useless in bright sunlight "the data is being displayed but you ain't gonna read it". The sheets can be saved or modified easily so there can be several versions/round selections readily available to the operator at any time.

Tony

On the Lapua 155 bullets, I tried them again this weekend from new and once fired cases. I can't easily get a direct comparison because of the 100 yard zero change when switching between the Lapua stuff and the Federal. I slowed down the load because the once fired cases showed pressure signs, I'm pushing at 2875+- now. 12 MOA at 570, 14 at 650 and about 15 at 680. I use a long action Remington M24 clone and seat to 2.875 OAL, powder is RE15 at 45.5gr. at Fed 210M.

I'll be shooting these at the Loang range class this weekend.
 
 
 

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 11:08:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.166.157)

On sizing of brass,a few years ago I had talked to someone who had told me about the Stoney Point tool that you can use to measure your brass for setting your dies for the best sizing. I bought one and checked all my brass and found I was on the money with everyone of them.

It has you measure a fired round from your rifle and then you check a round from your sizing die and there should only be a thousand or two difference (Don't recall the exact figure) If not you reset it until you come up with the exact figure. Its suppose to stop excessive brass wear and keep your loads more consistant.

Doc..
Have you tried Varget with the 155s yet?? I was able to get 2900+ with mine. Also 4064 was a very accurate load don't recall the load or speed on it though.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 13:32:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

I tried VARGET and didn't get the bullet up to the speed I wanted so I gave the RE15 a try. I'll try VARGET once more when I go through another set of testing. I'm too late into this load procedure for the Long Range class to switch to another powder.

The rifle I use has a polygonal rifled barrel thats a little tighter/small than conventional rifling barrels. That may be why I get different pressure results with the VARGET.
 

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 14:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.166.157)

I'm working on a short 20" barreled 308 project that I'd like to try them in. I figure I should get around 2700 fps with them. Action is out at Kreiger's for the barrel job as we speak. The barrel will be a #10 fluted with 1/11 twist. My intent was 168s or 175s in the 20" should get 2600 fps with the right load. Picked up an internet special A3 stock from McMillian today. I have an Autagua M4 base and a USO SN6 10x and rings that I'll throw on it. I figure the whole thing should weight in at around 12 lbs. Might go for a Bear coat green finish if I have time to get it done before Sept., otherwise a coat of paint will have to do.

Have fun at the class and log all that data for us. Thanks..
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 14:46:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

thank's

Wade
Wade <slimey_limey1960@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 15:21:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.187.51.62)

The primers in your '43 ammo are corrosive, not mercuric. The corrosive component is Potassium Chlorate - actually, the salts remaining after it has fired. U.S. ammo has not used mercuric primers since the turn of the century - the last one, that is.

Be careful in depriming - I've had primers go off on me while reloading and it is a scare! Be sure there's no open powder around while you are doing this, or deactivate them with wd-40 before doing it.

Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, Republic of Texas - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 15:29:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.123.15.240)

How is your M70-.223 project coming along? I had a chance to handle one over the weekend. It's a nice piece of work.

Pablito,

Did you perform your 'Asphaltum' process? How did it turn out?
 

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 15:56:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

Tony..
The 155MKs grouped as well if not better thsn 168s in my 1-12 all the way out to 600yds. I have some loaded and hope to get out further to maybe 1000yds. My range was nearly dried out and then it dumped on us this weekend so that will set me back again.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 16:03:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

I don't think it's worth it... there are so many sources of really cheap fired '06 brass.

You will have to "kill" the primers with WD-40 or some other penetrating oil... size and de-prime them... remove the primer crimp ring... then wash them in a good detergent, to get the WD-40 out, or it will kill the new primers (and powder)... then dry them out before loading them.
Unless you have a lot of spare time on your hands, it doesn't make sense... the bullets are worthless.
You can buy new factory cases for around $21 a hundred... and deprimed, decrimped, cleaned, military brass, for around 6 to 10 cents each... new, M118 match pulls, cleaned and polished, are around $3.75 a hundred...

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 16:03:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.59)

What twist rate is the barrel?

You said everything was tight and right but look again at the scope and mounts. Maybe you have some internal buggers in the Loopy?

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 17:01:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.196.211)

Thank's guy's
 

Wade
Wade <slimey_limey1960@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 17:24:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.187.52.17)

Thanks for the input guys.

Also I'm going to mount a loopy MK4M3 on it but, I have a Savage 10 FP that shoots very well a deserves a better scope than the Simmons whitetail on it now. Any input on the quality of Springfield Armory Scopes? I have been going through the archives and found only one posting thus far on thier scopes.

Thanks again.

Steve D.
Steve <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, TX, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 17:33:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.96.143.143)

The Springfield scopes have been discussed so much, that I have been forbidden to mention them for 4 more months ;)

On the Roster, they are usually refered to by "SA", as in "an SA Gen 1" etc... not by the full name (we're lazy and don't want to type it).
They are very good scopes for the money... better than Tabasco, Bushnell, Simmons etc, but not as good as B&L Tac's, Lupitas, S&Bs, etc.

I've had a SA Gen 1 on an M21 for about 9 years, and it's just fine.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 19:10:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.59)

Thanks,
John
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@scoutsniper.com>
Springfield, Missouri, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 23:15:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.14.177.8)

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 23:36:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.24)

Headspace is measured from the bolt face to the 0.400" datum on the shoulder. Commercial .308 Winchester minimum headspace is 1.630". Maximum headspace is 1.634". Most gunsmiths will cut a match chamber at 1.6305, i.e. pretty close to the minimum. Tactical rifles are chambered more liberally at 1.632 (usually).

7.62 mm headspace differs. Minimum is 1.6355". Note that this is already .015" over maximum .308 headspace. This is explained clearly in Jerry Kuhnhausen's excellent publication US .30 Caliber Gas Operated Service Rifles. A Shop Manual Volumes I & II.

Compounding the problem is the fact that most match factory ammo that I have measured is about 1.628".

I use Stoney Point insert to measure headspace. Very nice piece of gear. Beats the RCBS mic gauge because YOU control the base line measurements.

To maximize case life, shoot individual lots of brass in one specific rifle. If you do this long enough, you will have more than one. I have brass shot 12 plus times in a bolt gun by John Eckenrode that only needs neck sizing. M1A brass would last also but ejection/extraction is so violent that the case is toast after 4-5 firings. Rim damage and dents from op rod.

Hope this helps. Stay safe but have fun.
 
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 23:48:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.204.115)

Re: Your search for a kid's .22 rifle. You might look at the Anschutz Woodchucker (if still available). Has a 12" LP with a 15" barrel. Bollt action with DM. Bought one for my son's first years ago and it's still a tackdriver. He's saving it for his son now.

Don
Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Monday, April 23, 2001 at 23:49:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.180.5.41)

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