April 01, 2001 - April 02, 2001

I concur heartily......the problem with detonating the side out of an AR variant, is either of the two you mentioned, and or both.

I prefer to think it is caused by a "Failure to lock up COMPLETELY".
If that bolt doesn't rotate....you got baaaad problems.

Same anomaly with M1A's....drop the hammer on one of those puppies, without the bolt being FULLY locked up..SAME results.

On the issue of clogged tubes,never heard the primer story, best I can recollect, is the first powders had a very high content of calcium( or some such), and this was causing the tubes to clog.
Once the powder was changed, the problem all but dissapeared.

Brav, Forget it..........you are doomed, to be like ME..trouble follows me,my mere existence is cause for global civil disturbances!!!!

lito'....IF one may be so bold, WHy are you using Asphaltum??
Younz goin' backards???.......I run from the stuff.

Any of you Sniperfoo types pushing the 175's to 2800 fps??...

Undude, thanks for the info.........(:

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 00:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.32)

>>"lito'....IF one may be so bold, Why are you using Asphaltum??
Younz goin' backards???.......I run from the stuff."<<

Well... I'm getting ready to load up some M48's for the 50BMG, and there's some gossip (I wouldn't give it any more credit than that), that they'll sometimes blow up just out of the muzzle. With about 400 grains of serious "Bang stuff" in them, that could ruin one's day... but the rumors were started by a guy that pulled the 640 grain bullets out of loaded ammo, and just replaced them with the 830 grain M48's (without reducing the powder charge)... that's the equivilent of pulling the 150 bullet from a .308, and putting in a 200 grain, with the same charge??? WTF... he was was probably running about 80,000 psi!!
Anyway, a few went off in front of the gun, and rattled his cage, so there is this rumor going around that the flame pressure moved up along the jacket wall, lit the main charge, and set the projo off.
It doesn't make sense to me... but I haven't been able to get cut-away diagrames of the M48, so I'm gonna use asphaltum, to seal the joint between the jacket and inner body... I'll put some on the joint, put it in a vacumme chamber, and pump it down to about 1/100th of atmospheric... let is sit for 10 minutes to outgas, then let it come back, so the stuff gets forced in, along the inner jacket... and let it dry.

Aren't you glad you asked??? ;)

... and I ain't going backwards... I'm so far backwards, I'd have to move forward, just to get where I am... you understood that, didn't you ?? ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 01:13:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.130)

Yep, I shoot at Camp Atterbury too. We use KD Range 3, and it has berms every 100yds out to 500. I think KD 4 and 5 go out to 1600, but I cant remember for sure. I do remember talking with some USMC Snipers, and Navy Seals that had their Fifties with them, and they shot out 1600m. Not sure what range they used though.

Usually, while we are shooting the NRA High Power match all the other ranges are in use too. And somebody is firing anti-armor missles while the zoomies are dropping bombs in the impact area. LOUD as hell while I am trying read the mirage/wind, and do all that marksmanship stuff. Oddly enough, Atterbury is the place that I shoot the most "cleans".

Marius,

I read it all. Where is else is there so much quality shooting info? No place that I know of. Sniper Country has it all. I hit the Roster several times a day.

WR Moore,

I have heard of such things, but IF the AR in question is built to the right tolerance I dont see how it can fire out of battery. If the bolt carrier is out of battery then the firing pin should not reach the primer.
On the M1A, with the proper size firing pin, and the right tolerances on the receiver bridge the firing pin is locked away from the primer until the bolt rotates into battery. I guess with the right(wrong) combination of receiver, bolt, firing pin it could certainly happen. I have personally had 4 cases seperate at the "knurling" on LC Match brass while firing a rapid fire string with the M1A, and never even knew it until I picked up my brass. Turns out that I had setback the shoulder a couple of thou too much. Doh!! Bad headspace between the ears! Shoulda been checking those, but got complacent at the loading bench. Now I take my time, and check everything at regular intervals to make sure I am loading quality ammo.

Later,
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 01:24:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.68)

'Lito, crystal lattice is nothing like fishnet stockings. I don't enjoy my job anywhere near that much. Oh, and I *LOVE* TiN dies! Given my choice, I don't purchase anything else. Well, between carbide and nitride anyway. Some say there's a difference, but I can't see it.
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 01:25:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.162)

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:01:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Thanks Ken!!

Jerry Rice is about right, and stick with the 6BR's or 6 PPC's for the 244 dia. Every by-gawd NBRSA newsletter I get is filled with both these cal's. Must be something in 'em. Plus the 6-250 Sav isn't a new thing, the 6 Int was introduced a few years back with lackluster performance, I think there was an Ackley too, perhaps new powder developments may have progressed , but the pressure curve just doesn't match the BR's. I don't know if the 6-250's would handle the pressures at the velocities youse guys want. I don't know if it could get the velocities you want.

Pablito:

Still stuck on the 10 twist .308's?? Yer makin' me second guess myself...
 

MikeM:

You said a few days back that you think the K&P 5r rifling profile might be why the 175MK's shot better thru that pipe than the H-S barrel. But the K&P wouldn't shoot 168's and the H-S would. Now, I would just like to know why the rifling profile would factor in that situation. I'll give ya my beliefs, heh, I think that 1/12" is so close to minimum twist standard for 175 weight .308 caliber bullets that barrel to barrel you will find a difference large enough to consider silly things such as rifling profile than the obvious. As long as the dimensions are adequate the profile should not make that big of difference. I think maybe Pab's is pretty close to right, minus 1.25", heh, but I think the 10's, 11's, 11.25's are better suited to the 175's and up. I don't belive it is the profile. Some barrels shoot and some don't no matta what, but I think most is because of slow twist. my 3 cents.

later kids
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, dakota territory, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Yup... and I haven't changed.
I'm a firm believer in the 10" for the .308/175SMK combo... and I got .46" reasons to keep the faith ;)

'lito
 
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:35:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.130)

Brav, Sounds real good and logical....but...the pin in BOTH the 14 / 1A, and 16 / 15's ARE floating......Seems inertia would cause the anomalies.
A sudden stop( i.e.)....cartridge incorrectly resized.....Uh OH!!!
This same thing will / does happen on the AR fam of riffles.

But, I defer to the resident Spurt, on the M1A's........

Asphaltum, sheepies, timing, pins,vacumn chambers, Xplosions at muzzle....hmmmmhmmm

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:53:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.46)

Finished the Savage stock project tonight. Very pumped!

I was going to try the pushrod trick, but can do without the weight. I did something much lighter, and it seems to work well.
I won't bore you high speed Rem 700/M25/M40 system guys (or use the bandwidth since I will get long winded ;>)), but if any of you Savage shooters are curious, drop me an email. This mod is lightweight, easy, cheap, uses easily obtainable materials, and even makes the weapon feel better. I have no doubts that the barrel will stay floated now (something it didn't do before modding the stock), and I can't wait to shoot it.

Anyone interested in a short article? Worthwhile for the newbies/budget conscious?

Perhaps the coin I saved by fixing the stock rather than replacing it can be better utilized on replacing my "Pro 50" (ha ha ha ha) scope. I was leaning toward the "tabasco" but I recently found the MidwayUSA website, and saw that they have some 3-9X and I think 12X Leupold M8 Mil Dot scopes for 400-500 smackers!! Do these scopes have target knobs? I see they have target TURRETS, but doesn't look like they have the knobs. I am going to have to say that one of these scopes is better than the Tasco even w/o target knobs. I wish I could handle one.
Going to search for Leupold M8 in the archives...........

Thanks to Steve from Joisee for some good info on NVD's. Still waiting for an email from Night Owl BTW...

Black fishnet stockings: Trying to get your favorite sheep to don a pair Patron 'Lito?;>)

Sleigh bells ring, are ya listening..friggin YUCK!!
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:56:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.65)

I think you pretty well covered the M1A/M14 timing thing. The camming pin on the AR should do the same thing if everything is built to specs.

The AR's do seem to be more prone to malfunction than the M1A/M14's, but then there are probably more AR's on the line now. I got two "NM" AR's, one Colt, and one BushMaster. WH Merchant Barrels, and Tubes on both. (WH Merchant, and Geoff are thicker'n fleas on a hound)Never had an alibi on either one. Of course I had Merchant assemble them, so I know they are right. With the AR's parts being built by so many different people, and then assembled by so many first time "gunsmiths" it is not all that much of a surprise that some of them won't run reliably.
Many of the problems I have seen are simply bad ammo related. Cases not sized enough, or commercial cases that are too soft, and loaded too damn hot resulting in extractor ripping through the rim of the case. Some brass does not have a big enough notch so the extractor can fully seat, or the extractor is not shaped so that it can reach all the way into the notch.
Another problem area are the two stage match triggers that people put in their AR's. I had one that defied anyone to make it work. The USMC Armorers at Perry kept it running so my kid could finish the week, but it finally went down for good. I finally got the original factory single stage trigger modified so that it is adjustable. No more problems. It feels good, and has been 100% reliable for about 3 years now. The Jewel Triggers seem to be the best ones out there for those that want the two stage trigger.

Later,
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 03:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.24)

You know as well as I do that I can't knock our standard rate of twist for the .308's. We have enough LE/Mil contracts that state the 1/12" twist is appropriate for the ammunition they are using. The same ammunition that they are using 1/10" twist in their 300 Win Mag's, or wby's, or even the '06. My personal belief is that a 168 gr, or 175 gr 30 cal should have the same rate of twist not depending on velocity. I don't believe rpm's factor as much into the stabilization as a guy would like to believe, I think once you create the rate of rotation appropriate to the bullet length that the distance travelled between rotations will not hamper the stabilization, as long as you keep the rotation. Why should the 300 Win Mag shoot the 175's at a 1/10" rate and the .308 shoot the 1/12's?? Shouldn't it be the other way around, physically?? Why are all the 30 WSM's built in 1/10" config? This is a round built for hunters, and they will be shooting the exact same bullets as the .308 Win's, but will shoot at velocities near 300 Win mag. Why would the 'slower' shooting 30 caliber rifles use slower twists, when they will most likely use the same bullets as the 'magnums'? If rpm's were the factor than this would make no sense. 'Lito, give me the dope!!

later

JR

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, dakota territory, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 03:20:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Bravo:

I finally came up with a Colt HBAR non/flat top The fast 1 in 7 twist dissapointed me I forgot to specifie to my dealer as I was sitting in his living room talking sh1t to his daughter. Any idea asto what a good load is? And what size targets do the sevices use in training 100? 200? 300? what size for 25 meter shooting, for zeroing?
 

Does any one happen to know a good load for the 20" HBAR with the fast twist mentioned above Does regular wolf or other cheap brand 55 grain fmj work good?
 

Who is the guy with the BETTER than turner slings for sale?
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 03:45:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.130)

I've got a 20" Colt HBAR with an after market 1 in 7 twist barrel. After swapping out parts with a 'working' AR to diagnose the problem of blown primers, Federal GM 69 gr. were found to be the problem. The fast twist plus a slightly rough chamber (which was polished a little bit to try to see if it would solve the problem, but it didn't ...) PLUS Federal's super soft brass was causing over-pressure. Loose primers blown back in the lug recesses and the trigger do wonders for an AR =P. Anyway, with reloads that had better brass the problem was solved. No unusual case bulging or flattened primers etc.

A load this AR loved was 77 gr Sierra BTHP with 23.5 gr of Varget. LOVED them ...

Slings? ----> www.tacticalintervention.com
Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
Bay Area, CA, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 04:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.198.191.2)

55 gr. 223 cal much to light for 1/7 twist, look for the 75-77 grain bullets. 40 grainers like 14 twist, 52-55 like 12 twist, and the rest I leave to the 9's and 7's. Just something I've seen downrange thru the years.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, dakota, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:02:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

My wife just asked, "Why don't you call that board "Gun Queer Central?" for my own self-avowed label, "Gun Queer" (kinda like you know you're a redneck if...

you own a heavy barreled, synthetic stock bolt gun in a non-OEM color, with a heavy mil-dot scope;

you have an M14 with a scope somewhere in a closet;

you dog is still trying to pass burlap (gotta love that!);

you can speak in sub-MOA terms out to 800, or trans-sonic range;

you've been to Rod Ryan's back yard;

you've been busted on a stalk or kicked in the butt by old Rick or Gooch;
 

etc., etc.).
 

Bill, I've found the (single) slam-fire I had on my NM M16 was from having a tight chamber on a Merchant (Douglas) barrel, and not using a small-base die to re-size brass. The bolt and carrier went forward (and locked), but the slamming inertia of the bolt and carrier forcibly jamming that cartridge into the chamber gave enough of a stop (while the firing pin was still moving forward) to blast one off on the first round of a slow-fire stage. Don't know who was more surprised -- me or the coach.

Never had an out-of-battery firing on an M16, but not saying it can't happen. On the commercial AR, the firing pin is supposed to be stopped by the top of the hammer. On a GI M16, the auto-sear prevents the hammer from dropping until the bolt and carrier are locked forward. The M16 is a tremendously strong design with the rotary locking lugs on the bolt locking into the barrel extension.

Geoff, on some detachments in the early to late 80's and early 90's the 12-power Leupold M8 (yes, with 1/4 MOA target knobs) with Premier Reticles was a very highly thought of scope on a stock 700 Varmint, then the PSS 700.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:09:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.228.172)

Guru Bill: Yes, I'll agree. Now there seem to be more '16 derivatives than anything else. When I was doing that religiously, it was a mix of about 50% AR's, 50% everything else, with about 49% being the '14s and Garands. Or maybe it was just that area, I don't know. I agree with your statements though, it's ALL the guy that builds it. Unfortunately, I don't have any faith anymore in mass makers. NONE of them. I trust this one Geoff built for me, but I'd run a couple of cases through even a Colt before trusting it personally. I've had just as good of luck with the ARs as I've had with 1911's ;-) On the two stage trigger, this Kreiger-Millazo has been good to me. The setscrews were sealed with ceramic, so I'm not worried about them coming loose when I need it the most.

Will: look to Mike Miller for the ultimate sling. On 1:7, I don't know. Never had one that fast personally. However there's a Patron and a Guru who do, and will have top-flight info. On the targets, you'll have to ask someone else. I remember the 25 yard targets, what, "very large postage stamp" size? It's "been a while" ;-) I'm cheap. I use paper plates as targets. Those little desert plates are about 4" round, and make GREAT targets. Oh, and did I mention CHEAP? HA!
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:12:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.125)

I have a friend who has deviously acquired a long action remington 700 receiver, cheap! No parts, no bolt, all we got's is a skeleton. Where do we go from here?? heehee, I am jealous of the bastard, I've been looking for this kind of deal for the past 10 years. We have bolts, I used one in my 721, works great. Can use the Ultra mag face or the reg mag face, I'm tempted to lead him towards the 6.5 X 284 so I can buy it from him (eh Pat, D&L??) why can't us Irishmen fall into these situations????!!!!
 

Bravo:

Love the Paaaaaaaablito blow up mate!!! she looks a lot like my prom date, with the hosiery and all, heheh. I bet she's cheaper too! all I needs is a pair of velcro gloves, LOL!!!

Foot in Mouth disease:

I don't know what all the hubbub is about, I've had it since I could speak, haven't quarantined my parents yet!!
 
 

later
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, dakota, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:30:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

On 1x7 twist AR bbls. Some will shoot the 55's but most wont do a good job with them. Go to 62 grain bullets and things may change.

Sinister, I just saw an AR that was firing out of battery. I did not think it was possible but Old Rex, has a tight match chamber and after market firing assemblies. His will do it when dirty. He was blowing primers and bulging cases on Monday with his. I think the chamber should be opened up a bit and Rex you need to clean more often.LOL Good luck at the match. Same ammo went through my M4 with ease and no pressure signs. I learned from the smith what was wrong. Chamber was dirty and pin hits with more pressure than before. Very weird learn something new everyday. I did not think that could happen.

Slings: hard to find who sells them. Me Me Me.

Mike/Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.208)

Ha, I luv you man!! You cut me no friggin slack, just what a young punk like me needs from this big bad world. But, yer wrong. If you explain to me why a 5 groove barrel stabilizes a bullet better than a six, then I might listen. Profile?? hell, a 5r is a radiused 5 grooved barrel, just as a 10x is a radiused 6 grooved barrel. Same principle. Hell, Ken Johnson used to work for HS, don't think he has anything on us, heheheheh.. we taught him everything he knows, hahahahah... Mikey, we get barrels that love the 175's, in 12 twist, but hate 168's, but they seem to hate 175's more than 168's. that means twist rate PERIOD. Take it from a barrelmaker and someone who has taken the time to look into it, jeezy creezy, I've dealt with Jbm and Aberdeen over this. 12" is the minimum of the 168-175MK range. A barrel is like a zebra, no two are the same, I don't know how a zebra shoots, so I can't use that reference.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city , here, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 06:31:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

I have .308's that have shot under 1/16 Moa @ 100 yds using 175's, I also have barrels that shot 1/2 @ 100yds. Confidentially, while bedding, my 721 sporter 300 Win shot 175's at 1/32 MOA at 100 yds, which leads to my next direction, how well was the gun built?? Hell, our 10,000 round rifle still shoots the 175's just over 1/2" I'm not knocking you or me, I just think the .308 could use a boost in twist rate, 12 IS TOO SLOW.

later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, right here in USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 06:49:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

yer from the same damned root as Pablito, I suspect yer both Scot- ish. If it wasn't for the McBride in me, I'd probably agree with youse guys!! But until the guy downstairs disagrees w/me or I send a blannk to Jerry, I won't back down. LOL......

later
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid ci ty, if its not scottish its crap, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 08:12:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Warning to all "bubba the drunken gunsmith" types.
DON'T DRINK AND PORT BARRELS! This poor HK USP 45 suffered mightily at the hands of somebody who was either very stupid(in a can't walk and chew bubble gum way) or very drunken(in a Teddy Kennedy way).

Guys sorry to always be doing this to you but this is one of the saddest things I've seen in a long time, it takes a whole new kind of stupid to do something like this.

Unfortunately it's no April Fools joke.

Cut and paste or go there directly by clicking on my name.
http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/Forum13/HTML/017747.html
 
 

On a side note, got lots of reloading to do today(300+ rounds to do). For the first time I'm trying out the 52grn Amaxes to see if they are gonna fly nicely for me. The Amax looks like it's got a nice ogive as compared to the Vmaxes, I'm hoping they are gonna like my 1:9 twist barrel.
 

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 08:44:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.27.232.201)

Bolt! I looked at that $995 and thought "I KNEW he was crazy!" - then I remembered the Sniper Pup. How's he doing?

Bill B,
you give my heart a warm fuzzy feeling, knowing all the hours is not for nothing :-)

I read the rest later

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 10:02:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.201)

Many thanks for the barrel posting binge! hee-hee! Now if we can just get Marius to cut n' paste it to the Hot Tips & Cold shots section.......
 

Sinister,
Now you've got me blowing coffee..............ssssssstop!
 

Will,
Look no further than Mike Miller, he didn't get a Tango-India-Tango-Sierra review rating fer nuthin. Especially now that hes figured out how to sew them without incorperating his fingers into the pieces!
 
 

Nice to see the kids playing nicely! BIG :-)
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 13:43:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.214)

Glad to see the post on M1A's. Thought, but didn't know for sure about their firing pin system. I guess tolerance stack, bad day at the shop and so on could make unlocked firing possible. Not to mention !@#$%& manufacturers who don't care about product integrity. Might be the best reason to shoot factory ammo. Your toy breaks, you call Dewey, Cheatum & Howe, sue and get a new toy and a lifetime ammo supply.

Actually, the AR's we tested for premature primer popping were Colts. At least two of the accidents happened with Lake City military ammo. On the ARs the only firing pin safety device is the length of the hammer slot in the bottom of the carrier. Also, as long as the bolt is cammed out of the carrier, I believe the reach is too far for the firing pin to contact a primer. What appears to be happening is that the bolt is locked into the barrel lugs, but the carrier is not fully forward. This affects the unlocking dwell and firing pin support of the primer.
 

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 14:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

Gentlemen, I think that you might find the backing for your discusion at this link.

I also found a couple of interesting tidbits of information at Link1 Link2 Lilja Precision Rifle Barrels site.

Life sure would be boring if everyone always agreed!
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 15:33:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.31)