I concur heartily......the problem with detonating the side out of an AR variant, is either of the two you mentioned, and or both.
I prefer to think it is caused by a "Failure to lock up COMPLETELY".
If that bolt doesn't rotate....you got baaaad problems.
Same anomaly with M1A's....drop the hammer on one of those puppies, without the bolt being FULLY locked up..SAME results.
On the issue of clogged tubes,never heard the primer story, best
I can recollect, is the first powders had a very high content of calcium(
or some such), and this was causing the tubes to clog.
Once the powder was changed, the problem all but dissapeared.
Brav, Forget it..........you are doomed, to be like ME..trouble follows me,my mere existence is cause for global civil disturbances!!!!
lito'....IF one may be so bold, WHy are you using Asphaltum??
Younz goin' backards???.......I run from the stuff.
Any of you Sniperfoo types pushing the 175's to 2800 fps??...
Undude, thanks for the info.........(:
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 00:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.102.32)
>>"lito'....IF one may be so bold, Why are you using Asphaltum??
Younz goin' backards???.......I run from the stuff."<<
Well... I'm getting ready to load up some M48's for the 50BMG, and
there's some gossip (I wouldn't give it any more credit than that), that
they'll sometimes blow up just out of the muzzle. With about 400 grains
of serious "Bang stuff" in them, that could ruin one's day... but the rumors
were started by a guy that pulled the 640 grain bullets out of loaded ammo,
and just replaced them with the 830 grain M48's (without reducing the powder
charge)... that's the equivilent of pulling the 150 bullet from a .308,
and putting in a 200 grain, with the same charge??? WTF... he was was probably
running about 80,000 psi!!
Anyway, a few went off in front of the gun, and rattled his cage,
so there is this rumor going around that the flame pressure moved up along
the jacket wall, lit the main charge, and set the projo off.
It doesn't make sense to me... but I haven't been able to get cut-away
diagrames of the M48, so I'm gonna use asphaltum, to seal the joint between
the jacket and inner body... I'll put some on the joint, put it in a vacumme
chamber, and pump it down to about 1/100th of atmospheric... let is sit
for 10 minutes to outgas, then let it come back, so the stuff gets forced
in, along the inner jacket... and let it dry.
Aren't you glad you asked??? ;)
... and I ain't going backwards... I'm so far backwards, I'd have to move forward, just to get where I am... you understood that, didn't you ?? ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 01:13:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.130)
Yep, I shoot at Camp Atterbury too. We use KD Range 3, and it has berms every 100yds out to 500. I think KD 4 and 5 go out to 1600, but I cant remember for sure. I do remember talking with some USMC Snipers, and Navy Seals that had their Fifties with them, and they shot out 1600m. Not sure what range they used though.
Usually, while we are shooting the NRA High Power match all the other ranges are in use too. And somebody is firing anti-armor missles while the zoomies are dropping bombs in the impact area. LOUD as hell while I am trying read the mirage/wind, and do all that marksmanship stuff. Oddly enough, Atterbury is the place that I shoot the most "cleans".
Marius,
I read it all. Where is else is there so much quality shooting info? No place that I know of. Sniper Country has it all. I hit the Roster several times a day.
WR Moore,
I have heard of such things, but IF the AR in question is built to
the right tolerance I dont see how it can fire out of battery. If the bolt
carrier is out of battery then the firing pin should not reach the primer.
On the M1A, with the proper size firing pin, and the right tolerances
on the receiver bridge the firing pin is locked away from the primer until
the bolt rotates into battery. I guess with the right(wrong) combination
of receiver, bolt, firing pin it could certainly happen. I have personally
had 4 cases seperate at the "knurling" on LC Match brass while firing a
rapid fire string with the M1A, and never even knew it until I picked up
my brass. Turns out that I had setback the shoulder a couple of thou too
much. Doh!! Bad headspace between the ears! Shoulda been checking those,
but got complacent at the loading bench. Now I take my time, and check
everything at regular intervals to make sure I am loading quality ammo.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 01:24:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.201.68)
'Lito, crystal lattice is nothing like fishnet stockings. I don't
enjoy my job anywhere near that much. Oh, and I *LOVE* TiN dies! Given
my choice, I don't purchase anything else. Well, between carbide and nitride
anyway. Some say there's a difference, but I can't see it.
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 01:25:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.162)
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:01:11 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
Thanks Ken!!
Jerry Rice is about right, and stick with the 6BR's or 6 PPC's for the 244 dia. Every by-gawd NBRSA newsletter I get is filled with both these cal's. Must be something in 'em. Plus the 6-250 Sav isn't a new thing, the 6 Int was introduced a few years back with lackluster performance, I think there was an Ackley too, perhaps new powder developments may have progressed , but the pressure curve just doesn't match the BR's. I don't know if the 6-250's would handle the pressures at the velocities youse guys want. I don't know if it could get the velocities you want.
Pablito:
Still stuck on the 10 twist .308's?? Yer makin' me second guess myself...
MikeM:
You said a few days back that you think the K&P 5r rifling profile might be why the 175MK's shot better thru that pipe than the H-S barrel. But the K&P wouldn't shoot 168's and the H-S would. Now, I would just like to know why the rifling profile would factor in that situation. I'll give ya my beliefs, heh, I think that 1/12" is so close to minimum twist standard for 175 weight .308 caliber bullets that barrel to barrel you will find a difference large enough to consider silly things such as rifling profile than the obvious. As long as the dimensions are adequate the profile should not make that big of difference. I think maybe Pab's is pretty close to right, minus 1.25", heh, but I think the 10's, 11's, 11.25's are better suited to the 175's and up. I don't belive it is the profile. Some barrels shoot and some don't no matta what, but I think most is because of slow twist. my 3 cents.
later kids
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, dakota territory, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:26:48
(ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)
Yup... and I haven't changed.
I'm a firm believer in the 10" for the .308/175SMK combo... and
I got .46" reasons to keep the faith ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:35:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.130)
Brav, Sounds real good and logical....but...the pin in BOTH the 14
/ 1A, and 16 / 15's ARE floating......Seems inertia would cause the anomalies.
A sudden stop( i.e.)....cartridge incorrectly resized.....Uh OH!!!
This same thing will / does happen on the AR fam of riffles.
But, I defer to the resident Spurt, on the M1A's........
Asphaltum, sheepies, timing, pins,vacumn chambers, Xplosions at muzzle....hmmmmhmmm
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:53:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.46)
Finished the Savage stock project tonight. Very pumped!
I was going to try the pushrod trick, but can do without the weight.
I did something much lighter, and it seems to work well.
I won't bore you high speed Rem 700/M25/M40 system guys (or use
the bandwidth since I will get long winded ;>)), but if any of you Savage
shooters are curious, drop me an email. This mod is lightweight, easy,
cheap, uses easily obtainable materials, and even makes the weapon feel
better. I have no doubts that the barrel will stay floated now (something
it didn't do before modding the stock), and I can't wait to shoot it.
Anyone interested in a short article? Worthwhile for the newbies/budget conscious?
Perhaps the coin I saved by fixing the stock rather than replacing
it can be better utilized on replacing my "Pro 50" (ha ha ha ha) scope.
I was leaning toward the "tabasco" but I recently found the MidwayUSA website,
and saw that they have some 3-9X and I think 12X Leupold M8 Mil Dot scopes
for 400-500 smackers!! Do these scopes have target knobs? I see they have
target TURRETS, but doesn't look like they have the knobs. I am going to
have to say that one of these scopes is better than the Tasco even w/o
target knobs. I wish I could handle one.
Going to search for Leupold M8 in the archives...........
Thanks to Steve from Joisee for some good info on NVD's. Still waiting for an email from Night Owl BTW...
Black fishnet stockings: Trying to get your favorite sheep to don a pair Patron 'Lito?;>)
Sleigh bells ring, are ya listening..friggin YUCK!!
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 02:56:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.207.52.65)
I think you pretty well covered the M1A/M14 timing thing. The camming pin on the AR should do the same thing if everything is built to specs.
The AR's do seem to be more prone to malfunction than the M1A/M14's,
but then there are probably more AR's on the line now. I got two "NM" AR's,
one Colt, and one BushMaster. WH Merchant Barrels, and Tubes on both. (WH
Merchant, and Geoff are thicker'n fleas on a hound)Never had an alibi on
either one. Of course I had Merchant assemble them, so I know they are
right. With the AR's parts being built by so many different people, and
then assembled by so many first time "gunsmiths" it is not all that much
of a surprise that some of them won't run reliably.
Many of the problems I have seen are simply bad ammo related. Cases
not sized enough, or commercial cases that are too soft, and loaded too
damn hot resulting in extractor ripping through the rim of the case. Some
brass does not have a big enough notch so the extractor can fully seat,
or the extractor is not shaped so that it can reach all the way into the
notch.
Another problem area are the two stage match triggers that people
put in their AR's. I had one that defied anyone to make it work. The USMC
Armorers at Perry kept it running so my kid could finish the week, but
it finally went down for good. I finally got the original factory single
stage trigger modified so that it is adjustable. No more problems. It feels
good, and has been 100% reliable for about 3 years now. The Jewel Triggers
seem to be the best ones out there for those that want the two stage trigger.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 03:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.197.24)
You know as well as I do that I can't knock our standard rate of twist for the .308's. We have enough LE/Mil contracts that state the 1/12" twist is appropriate for the ammunition they are using. The same ammunition that they are using 1/10" twist in their 300 Win Mag's, or wby's, or even the '06. My personal belief is that a 168 gr, or 175 gr 30 cal should have the same rate of twist not depending on velocity. I don't believe rpm's factor as much into the stabilization as a guy would like to believe, I think once you create the rate of rotation appropriate to the bullet length that the distance travelled between rotations will not hamper the stabilization, as long as you keep the rotation. Why should the 300 Win Mag shoot the 175's at a 1/10" rate and the .308 shoot the 1/12's?? Shouldn't it be the other way around, physically?? Why are all the 30 WSM's built in 1/10" config? This is a round built for hunters, and they will be shooting the exact same bullets as the .308 Win's, but will shoot at velocities near 300 Win mag. Why would the 'slower' shooting 30 caliber rifles use slower twists, when they will most likely use the same bullets as the 'magnums'? If rpm's were the factor than this would make no sense. 'Lito, give me the dope!!
later
JR
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, dakota territory, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 03:20:30
(ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)
Bravo:
I finally came up with a Colt HBAR non/flat top The fast 1 in 7 twist
dissapointed me I forgot to specifie to my dealer as I was sitting in his
living room talking sh1t to his daughter. Any idea asto what a good load
is? And what size targets do the sevices use in training 100? 200? 300?
what size for 25 meter shooting, for zeroing?
Does any one happen to know a good load for the 20" HBAR with the
fast twist mentioned above Does regular wolf or other cheap brand 55 grain
fmj work good?
Who is the guy with the BETTER than turner slings for sale?
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 03:45:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
166.82.233.130)
I've got a 20" Colt HBAR with an after market 1 in 7 twist barrel. After swapping out parts with a 'working' AR to diagnose the problem of blown primers, Federal GM 69 gr. were found to be the problem. The fast twist plus a slightly rough chamber (which was polished a little bit to try to see if it would solve the problem, but it didn't ...) PLUS Federal's super soft brass was causing over-pressure. Loose primers blown back in the lug recesses and the trigger do wonders for an AR =P. Anyway, with reloads that had better brass the problem was solved. No unusual case bulging or flattened primers etc.
A load this AR loved was 77 gr Sierra BTHP with 23.5 gr of Varget. LOVED them ...
Slings? ----> www.tacticalintervention.com
Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
Bay Area, CA, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 04:57:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.198.191.2)
55 gr. 223 cal much to light for 1/7 twist, look for the 75-77 grain bullets. 40 grainers like 14 twist, 52-55 like 12 twist, and the rest I leave to the 9's and 7's. Just something I've seen downrange thru the years.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, dakota, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:02:44 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.34.14.24)
My wife just asked, "Why don't you call that board "Gun Queer Central?" for my own self-avowed label, "Gun Queer" (kinda like you know you're a redneck if...
you own a heavy barreled, synthetic stock bolt gun in a non-OEM color, with a heavy mil-dot scope;
you have an M14 with a scope somewhere in a closet;
you dog is still trying to pass burlap (gotta love that!);
you can speak in sub-MOA terms out to 800, or trans-sonic range;
you've been to Rod Ryan's back yard;
you've been busted on a stalk or kicked in the butt by old Rick or
Gooch;
etc., etc.).
Bill, I've found the (single) slam-fire I had on my NM M16 was from having a tight chamber on a Merchant (Douglas) barrel, and not using a small-base die to re-size brass. The bolt and carrier went forward (and locked), but the slamming inertia of the bolt and carrier forcibly jamming that cartridge into the chamber gave enough of a stop (while the firing pin was still moving forward) to blast one off on the first round of a slow-fire stage. Don't know who was more surprised -- me or the coach.
Never had an out-of-battery firing on an M16, but not saying it can't happen. On the commercial AR, the firing pin is supposed to be stopped by the top of the hammer. On a GI M16, the auto-sear prevents the hammer from dropping until the bolt and carrier are locked forward. The M16 is a tremendously strong design with the rotary locking lugs on the bolt locking into the barrel extension.
Geoff, on some detachments in the early to late 80's and early 90's the 12-power Leupold M8 (yes, with 1/4 MOA target knobs) with Premier Reticles was a very highly thought of scope on a stock 700 Varmint, then the PSS 700.
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:09:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.88.228.172)
Guru Bill: Yes, I'll agree. Now there seem to be more '16 derivatives than anything else. When I was doing that religiously, it was a mix of about 50% AR's, 50% everything else, with about 49% being the '14s and Garands. Or maybe it was just that area, I don't know. I agree with your statements though, it's ALL the guy that builds it. Unfortunately, I don't have any faith anymore in mass makers. NONE of them. I trust this one Geoff built for me, but I'd run a couple of cases through even a Colt before trusting it personally. I've had just as good of luck with the ARs as I've had with 1911's ;-) On the two stage trigger, this Kreiger-Millazo has been good to me. The setscrews were sealed with ceramic, so I'm not worried about them coming loose when I need it the most.
Will: look to Mike Miller for the ultimate sling. On 1:7, I don't
know. Never had one that fast personally. However there's a Patron and
a Guru who do, and will have top-flight info. On the targets, you'll have
to ask someone else. I remember the 25 yard targets, what, "very large
postage stamp" size? It's "been a while" ;-) I'm cheap. I use paper plates
as targets. Those little desert plates are about 4" round, and make GREAT
targets. Oh, and did I mention CHEAP? HA!
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:12:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.125)
I have a friend who has deviously acquired a long action remington
700 receiver, cheap! No parts, no bolt, all we got's is a skeleton. Where
do we go from here?? heehee, I am jealous of the bastard, I've been looking
for this kind of deal for the past 10 years. We have bolts, I used one
in my 721, works great. Can use the Ultra mag face or the reg mag face,
I'm tempted to lead him towards the 6.5 X 284 so I can buy it from him
(eh Pat, D&L??) why can't us Irishmen fall into these situations????!!!!
Bravo:
Love the Paaaaaaaablito blow up mate!!! she looks a lot like my prom date, with the hosiery and all, heheh. I bet she's cheaper too! all I needs is a pair of velcro gloves, LOL!!!
Foot in Mouth disease:
I don't know what all the hubbub is about, I've had it since I could
speak, haven't quarantined my parents yet!!
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, dakota, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:30:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.34.14.24)
On 1x7 twist AR bbls. Some will shoot the 55's but most wont do a good job with them. Go to 62 grain bullets and things may change.
Sinister, I just saw an AR that was firing out of battery. I did not think it was possible but Old Rex, has a tight match chamber and after market firing assemblies. His will do it when dirty. He was blowing primers and bulging cases on Monday with his. I think the chamber should be opened up a bit and Rex you need to clean more often.LOL Good luck at the match. Same ammo went through my M4 with ease and no pressure signs. I learned from the smith what was wrong. Chamber was dirty and pin hits with more pressure than before. Very weird learn something new everyday. I did not think that could happen.
Slings: hard to find who sells them. Me Me Me.
Mike/Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 05:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.201.208)
Ha, I luv you man!! You cut me no friggin slack, just what a young punk like me needs from this big bad world. But, yer wrong. If you explain to me why a 5 groove barrel stabilizes a bullet better than a six, then I might listen. Profile?? hell, a 5r is a radiused 5 grooved barrel, just as a 10x is a radiused 6 grooved barrel. Same principle. Hell, Ken Johnson used to work for HS, don't think he has anything on us, heheheheh.. we taught him everything he knows, hahahahah... Mikey, we get barrels that love the 175's, in 12 twist, but hate 168's, but they seem to hate 175's more than 168's. that means twist rate PERIOD. Take it from a barrelmaker and someone who has taken the time to look into it, jeezy creezy, I've dealt with Jbm and Aberdeen over this. 12" is the minimum of the 168-175MK range. A barrel is like a zebra, no two are the same, I don't know how a zebra shoots, so I can't use that reference.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city , here, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 06:31:41 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.34.14.24)
I have .308's that have shot under 1/16 Moa @ 100 yds using 175's, I also have barrels that shot 1/2 @ 100yds. Confidentially, while bedding, my 721 sporter 300 Win shot 175's at 1/32 MOA at 100 yds, which leads to my next direction, how well was the gun built?? Hell, our 10,000 round rifle still shoots the 175's just over 1/2" I'm not knocking you or me, I just think the .308 could use a boost in twist rate, 12 IS TOO SLOW.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, right here in USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 06:49:55
(ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)
yer from the same damned root as Pablito, I suspect yer both Scot- ish. If it wasn't for the McBride in me, I'd probably agree with youse guys!! But until the guy downstairs disagrees w/me or I send a blannk to Jerry, I won't back down. LOL......
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid ci ty, if its not scottish its crap, USA - Sunday, April 01,
2001 at 08:12:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)
Warning to all "bubba the drunken gunsmith" types.
DON'T DRINK AND PORT BARRELS! This poor HK USP 45 suffered mightily
at the hands of somebody who was either very stupid(in a can't walk and
chew bubble gum way) or very drunken(in a Teddy Kennedy way).
Guys sorry to always be doing this to you but this is one of the saddest things I've seen in a long time, it takes a whole new kind of stupid to do something like this.
Unfortunately it's no April Fools joke.
Cut and paste or go there directly by clicking on my name.
http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/Forum13/HTML/017747.html
On a side note, got lots of reloading to do today(300+ rounds to
do). For the first time I'm trying out the 52grn Amaxes to see if they
are gonna fly nicely for me. The Amax looks like it's got a nice ogive
as compared to the Vmaxes, I'm hoping they are gonna like my 1:9 twist
barrel.
B.
Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 08:44:45 (ZULU) (your host
address: 66.27.232.201)
Bolt! I looked at that $995 and thought "I KNEW he was crazy!" - then I remembered the Sniper Pup. How's he doing?
Bill B,
you give my heart a warm fuzzy feeling, knowing all the hours is
not for nothing :-)
I read the rest later
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 10:02:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
155.239.180.201)
Many thanks for the barrel posting binge! hee-hee! Now if we can
just get Marius to cut n' paste it to the Hot Tips & Cold shots section.......
Sinister,
Now you've got me blowing coffee..............ssssssstop!
Will,
Look no further than Mike Miller, he didn't get a Tango-India-Tango-Sierra
review rating fer nuthin. Especially now that hes figured out how to sew
them without incorperating his fingers into the pieces!
Nice to see the kids playing nicely! BIG :-)
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 13:43:40 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.201.214)
Glad to see the post on M1A's. Thought, but didn't know for sure about their firing pin system. I guess tolerance stack, bad day at the shop and so on could make unlocked firing possible. Not to mention !@#$%& manufacturers who don't care about product integrity. Might be the best reason to shoot factory ammo. Your toy breaks, you call Dewey, Cheatum & Howe, sue and get a new toy and a lifetime ammo supply.
Actually, the AR's we tested for premature primer popping were Colts.
At least two of the accidents happened with Lake City military ammo. On
the ARs the only firing pin safety device is the length of the hammer slot
in the bottom of the carrier. Also, as long as the bolt is cammed out of
the carrier, I believe the reach is too far for the firing pin to contact
a primer. What appears to be happening is that the bolt is locked into
the barrel lugs, but the carrier is not fully forward. This affects the
unlocking dwell and firing pin support of the primer.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 14:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
158.106.50.3)
Gentlemen, I think that you might find the backing for your discusion at this link.
I also found a couple of interesting tidbits of information at Link1 Link2 Lilja Precision Rifle Barrels site.
Life sure
would be boring if everyone always agreed!
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 15:33:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.41.42.31)
Barrel Twist-Rate
Prior post - sorry for the poor formating, click on any of the "link"
words to go to the information. It looks for sh*t, but the links do work.
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 15:38:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.41.42.31)
Sinister Dave,
I am glad to anounce that I qualify for your Redneck stereotype. Exept for the Burlap passing dog. I hope that munching down two boxes of staples, for my staple gun that I use for the target backing, qualifies him as well.
Redneck T
PS
I just got my: Kowa, Kompass, 1000P Laserrangefinder, mount em´all
on one tripod bar. Looks good and solid, I will check it next weekend and
report on its usefulness in the field.
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 16:39:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.156.8.112)
JR, this is not a flame. I know you have so much more knowledge about
bbls than anyone on here so it is more of a question than anything else.
Why is it different rifles, built the same way with the same tollerences
and chamber, twists you name it shoot the 175's differently? If you hold
all the tolerences the same and use the same chamber, accuracy procedures,
shouldn't the results be similar? I get to shoot most every 308 Jerry Rice
builds and all have 1x12 twist. All shoot the same one whole groups with
both 175 and 168 ammo. I have shot or had students shoot several dozen
Remington PSS's with 175's and all of them would shoot the 175's as well
as they did with 168's. George Gardner has built me several rifles in 308
and they also shoot both rounds well. All of the rifles have 1x12 twist.
I dont know what would cause your rifle to shoot the 168s sowell and so bad with 175's.
Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 16:49:58 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.201.208)
After reviewing this comprehensive site I feel secure in asking for
some advice. I am an amature target shooter and hunter. I also have an
abiding interest in history and military firearms. I was hoping you could
tell me if you know anything of the accuracy and reliablity of such calibers
as the 8mm Mauser, 7.62 Mauser and British .303. Also, what is the maximum
practical range of these weapons and how do they compare with more modern
firearms from Remington et al and the newer calibers such as .308, 7mm
and .300 WinMag.
Thanks for a great site.
Chris Ingram <IngsEagle@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 21:51:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.197.196)
test
ken (testing an account) <markwell@hardynet.com>
test, test, USA - Sunday, April 01, 2001 at 23:34:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
Does anyone have any "hands on experience" with the "ATN Professional
LU" line of scopes? They include a rangefinder, lite recticle, and BDC
all in the same scope. Are they all that they claim to be?~super accurate,
excellant day/night, etc... Seems to be a lot of scope for not too much
money.
Anyones experience or insight is appreciated! I will be doing a
lot of long range target shooting, and other long range applications. Thanks
for the help!
Wolfgang <duncan_wolfgang7@yahoo.com>
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 00:07:50 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.183.75.96)
testing,testing...
Bravo....Go out and shoot 500rds. a day for two days..We want to
know if the 1911 runs!!
PeteR....You obviously didn't hear about the truck hijacking on the news. Got a whole new flock and have been busy.
Outa here, hope this new password thing works this time.
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Watching it snow in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, April 02,
2001 at 00:08:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.204)
TwoShoes,
Looked for ya yesterday and today....change your mind??
Tried the AXAX load in real crappy wind today at 500 and 1000. Runs around 1/4 moa and seems to ignore conditions. Scrapped all the 175's to Ron soon as I got home, going with this Hornady thingie from now on. Looks prettier too.
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 01:31:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.232.237.21)
Guys...Ya'll are going to call me a liar, but I saw it with my own
eyes. ( Marty Bordson - Badger Ordance also seen this). George Gardner
is at my place this weekend, along with Marty, Randy Brooks and Jessica
Treau from Barnes Bullets, and last night, he shot a 4 shot group at 1000
yrds that measured 3.75!!! Now..the best for last..He shot that group with
a AR-10!! I would NOT have believed it if I hadn't seen it!!
Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 02:08:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.71.44.184)
Howdy Roster Hogs,
Had an interesting thing happen today went to a gun show and had
a 300 Ultra follow me home. After realizing it was an ok gun and every
thing i figured i needed to feed it some good food so it would stay around,
so can anyone help out with some good starting loads for this, for either
hunting or precision shooting. Thanks for any help and keep squeezing.
marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
Pa, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 02:31:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.20.71.210)
JR, Mike Miller, 'Lito, sheepies et al,
168/175 FGMM and 1/12 barrels.
I am running out of the 168FGMM and need to replenish the stash. This is all I have used in my stock Rem 700P. Now I'm thinking of going to the 175s. But why?
What benefit, if any, will I get by switching? Does the 175 shoot flatter or have more range or deliver more energy at a given range or ???
So far, all I can see is that I will get to swap the BDC caps on the LRM3.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 02:57:44 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.197.56)
I am new to comp. shooting. I have a Howa model 1500 caliber- 22-250
and want to know what some opinions are on Howa rifles and their performance.
I also have a SKS with a new Fiber Force stock and Leapers 4x40mm scope.
It shoots very well but I think I will use it for hunting. I would also
like to know where a good range is in North Carolina for Comp. Shooting...
Thanks for any response.
Jonathon Lynch <lynchtwo@bellsouth.net>
Stanly, NC, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 02:59:48 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.185.64)
FNG ALERT!!!
Just found this board and registered. I probably know a few of you; hope to increase the score over time.
I shoot anything that goes Bang! Presently working on a BFG-50 and a Sako TRG-S in .338 Lapua Mag. Actually, the .338 is sitting in the safe till I get a brake for it.
I do my long-range shooting at Tac Pro shooting center, near Stephenville, TX. They go out to 1k yards.
Regards
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 03:01:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.217.73.30)
Moe: The wind moves the 175s around significantly less. Its surprising
how noticable it is.
State 1,000 yard championships in a month. Let's see what kind of
damage I can do with a stock .300 Win and one of Mike's slings. I'm jazzed.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 03:09:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
M1 Garands -
Dropped in to the local dealer today to buy some CBs and they had two Garands strapped to the wall.
One was built on a Century receiver and the other on a BMR (BRM?) receiver. The Century gun had a GI stock and was priced at $545. It was the store's gun. The BMR gun had a beautiful laminated stock and was priced at $725 and was a consignment gun.
Is anybody familiar with the BMR name? Are these prices in the ballpark for a decent M1?
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 03:12:23 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.197.56)
Moe...
>>"Does the 175 shoot flatter or have more range or deliver more
energy at a given range or ???"<<
All of the above ;)... you'll love them, they are the bullets I shot the 0.46" group at 405 yds with.. they rock.
BMG Mike...
Aw jeez, another 50BMG shooter bum... this friggin' site is going
up in smoke ;)
Welcome (from a AR-50 kinda guy)!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Just say "NO" to sheepies, in the, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001
at 03:14:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)
Bobby,
Can you find out what load G. Gardner shot from his AR-10 please?
Brass, primer, powder (type/weight), bullet and LOA.
Just curious. Thanks - Krowbar
KROWBAR <krowbar@scsssinc.com>
Chapel Hill, NC, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 03:15:31 (ZULU)
(your host address: 32.101.202.192)
Hogs:
Just thought I'd chime in on the registry stuff - there's quite a few of younz out there that lurk regularly. We have 175 registered hogs...
CDC: I've seen those .300's kick butt in the wind... you oughta be in good shape... just hold hard and squeeze steady.
BMG Mike: " FNG Alert" LOL... yeah.. you'll fit right in with this
crowd of sheep chasin gun junkies...
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 03:23:05 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.233.164.10)
'Lito.........be veewwwwwwwwwy careful of that BMGMike guy. He shoots
a Serbu with great ease......and accuracy.
For balance he has this real cool 1919 on a T&E mount that's
good for about 100moa....a real sight to ripping up a 28 foot berm!
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 03:23:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.232.237.22)
Mike in Texas.......
Gotta let us in on the "Scrapping the 175's".
Sounds WAY too good to keep to oneself Grasshopper!!!!!!((:
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 03:45:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.27)
OK, Friday morning went out and played with some toys. I was messing
with an Unertl 18x 1&1/4inch target scope, external adjustments and
all, and got it secured to an old Rem 40X in 308(actually marked 7.62NATO)
with the stock 27" barrel and an old laminate prone stock from circa 1980'ish
(I'm feeling nostalgic for the days when Rem made good rifles). Well I
was doing chrono and zero work with both 190 SMK and 175 SMK loads. Now,
other than the scope needing to be checked out by the factory(anybody hear
anything about rebuilds from Unertl yet?), things went rather well. The
175's were doing 2705fps(SD 12) and the 190's 2510fps(SD 10). Now I get
home and am checking the books, and at 1000yds, the wind drift is dead
even for these two loads. The 175's shoot flatter. Now, I'm pretty sure
I can push the 190's a little harder, especially if I switch powders(using
N140 right now, thinking RL-15 instead), but I'm pretty sure the 175's
are going as fast as I care to send them(currrently using H4895). Any thoughts,
one way or the other? Not worried about following a BDC, since I'm going
to keep that Unertl on it. Semper Fidelis...Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 04:00:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.4.253.164)
Gentlemen,
I have been doing a lot of studying on a paper that I am
writing.
Couple of quick questions:
One author supports using Anshutz style rails on Tactical
Rifles along with shooting jackets (Iron Maidens - Uugh!) and
shooting glove.
I shot competition small bore for several years and see the
place that these items have in a competitive arena but do these
items have any benefits in a tactical enviroment? Do the
benefits outwieght the practicality? It would appear to me,
that a police sniper would be weighted down enough without
having to lug around a 15 pound shooting jacket(?).
What is the consenus in amoung my esteemed shooting friends?
Thanks for your time.
Pakrat
PAKRAT <psfamily@mail.com>
TX, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 04:05:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
168.69.134.183)
Moe: Run, don't walk, from the aftermarket receivered Garands. The
best deal on a Garand is still through the CMP, with the Dutch Garands
being the best deal on anything that holds 8 rounds. Walt from Fulton "educated"
me on these receivers in depth. I trust Walt, he's SMART. On the 175's,
I was "die hard" 168 SMK for a LONG time. Someone who loves sheep talked
me into trying some 175's. For out to 500 yards, I don't see virtually
any difference. After 500 yards, the difference is astounding. Seriously.
So much so that this M-25 has never fired a 168.
Mike in Granbury: you can't just drop a bomb like that on me and then leave! Hey, how about the skinny on the AMAX's! Anything worthy of throwing out 175 SMK's for is worth looking into in my book. Guess I've learned that only complacency can kill me. That and my friends ;-)
Day one with the 1911 starts tomorrow. Got PLENTY of ammo now. Will
comment when it jams, or next month when the case is done, whichever comes
first. Probably comment tomorrow night. Thanks for the encouragement Markwell,
but I can't afford too many 500 round days now.
Boomhauer
<Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 05:17:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.90)
Testing 1-2-3 Can anyone point me in the right directon of "Mike's
sling"?
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 05:45:44 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.26.60.82)
Gents: Attended the Accuracy International demo this past Fri at the
Coalinga 1000yd range. Was able to fire the AI 300 Win Mag, 338 Lapua as
well as their 50 cal rifle:-))))) Awesome guns. They tested a AI 308 by
firing 5 shot group, then bouncing the gun on the hard packed dirt, hard,
about 4 times. The fourth time the stock slipped on the dirt and the gun
landed on the scope (a Nightforce 3.5x15x50). Another 5 shot group. They
then removed the scope completely off the gun. Another 5 shot group. The
shooter (Kevin Corcoran of AI) was firing fairly quickly. That 15 shot
group measured about 1.5". Not bad at all.
Then we were let loose with the other toys. I first went right to the 300 Win Mag. It was sighted in at 300 yds. After a couple sighters scored 3 hits on the steel pigs, no problem.
Next the 50 cal. This thing was unreal. The muzzle brake combined with the shock absorber on the buttpad made it tolerable to shoot. Lots of noise and shock but no pain in the shoulder. Shot 3 rounds for 3 hits at a 500yds steel silhouette. Not bad for the first time firing a 50 cal. Though most shooters did in fact get first shot hits with that gun.
Then moved to the 338 Lapua. This particular gun was also sighted in at 500yds. Fired two shots to confirm point of impact, then it was three shots for three steel rams. Recoil wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. The muzzle brake on this rifle did a great job at taming recoil.
The AI folks were great to deal with and answered all questions with
a smile and enthusiasm. These guys know their stuff. I only wish I could
afford one:-(( BTW all ammo fired was of Lapua manufacture. Except the
50 which they were bringing out by the handfull instead of boxed like the
rest of the ammo.
joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
turlock, ca, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 06:28:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 199.174.219.170)
PaKrat...
I would take the "Author's" crap, and put it in the fireplace...
HA!
Tell him to bring all that junk to Storm in September, I need all
the other guys to be laughin' in tears, so I have a chance ;)
Ken M...
I get 2600+ with 190SMK's out of both of mine... 42.5 Varget, with
no signs of pressure... the "7.62 Nato" chamber is throated differently
(not as long), then the regular .308, cuz they don't figure that you'll
be shooting 220 round nosed hunting bullets.
Mike in Texas...
A Se...Ser... Serbu??? HA! (as Pat would say), I got pipes comin'
outa my hot water heater, that are better lookin than that "Ugly Stick"
;)... course, it only needs one person to carry it, so I guess it has it's
good points
But a 1919... now that makes it Aw more betterer. ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 10:31:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.38)
Mike in Texas,
While you're at it try the .308 178 gr. Hornady National Matches,
about two years ago somebody here was toying with them and getting good
results. I think they were using Varget with Federal GM components.
Moe,
Why switch to 175's over 168's?!
Duuuuuuuuuuuude, most of the folks here WON'T use anything else.
They make that big a difference at 500 + yards.
Later Gators!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 10:55:58 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.103.46)
Reference: JR's note to MikeM on 4/01 about twist rate and group size.
JR,
When you are saying that you have 308s and a 300Mag shooting into
1/16 and 1/32 minute, are you talking about these guns AVERAGING these
groups or are you saying that these guns have shot an occaisional bug hole?
Remember that a one hole group shot with .30 Cal. can still go 1/2 M.O.A.
and there is light years between a 1/2 MOA rifle and a 1/16 M.O.A. rifle.
We have all shot the occaisional screamer group even from prone/bipod but most of the TECHNO type discussions I see when visiting the site are referring to what the rifle can CONSISTENTLY AGG (especially when comparing components like bullets & twists). I have the occaisional stock 700P come through the shop and plunk out a 1/4 minute group but the rifle may not be a 1/4 minute rifle. If I stand and shoot enough groups with my Glock, I might eventually shoot a 1/4" group. Do I then have a 1/4 minute Glock?
Not trying to knock your expertise but just asking for some clarification. I'm sure that I am not operating at the levels you guys are but 1/16 and 1/32 m.o.a. equals groups under .100"!! Not even the best benchrest rigs can consistenly agg those groups. So either you mis-keyed your fractions or you are holding on to the most accurate 30 caliber field rifles in the world.
Me and a few dozen others that get wet at the sight of bolt guns were just wondering. Everybody stay safe.
No Wind,
Terry (Cross)
Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 13:37:12 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.64)
Big Will,
Afraid you're out of luck on a Loopy base for a 39A. You might want
to use a Weaver #90 1 pc. base and top it with Burris Signaure Zee rings
or plain Zee rings. Burris puts out quality stuff.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 13:44:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.229.72.245)
RE:Savage stock torque.
I had this conversation with them about a year and a half ago and posted details at the time. My current recollection is that they also told me 25 inch/lbs. I prodded them as much as their lawyers would allow and got the distinct impression that the "reason" for restricting the torque to so low was to prevent the action screws from screwing up into the actual interior of the receiver and interfering with bolt operation. I know, I sounds goofy, but that's what they said. So as long as your bolt is still clear, I wouldn't worry overly, provided you don't go overboard and crank those babies so hard that they strip out.
Personally, I keep the front screw torqued up at about 40 after a
re-bed and haven't had any problems like that. Seems to me that I did iy
to about 50 right out of the box with no ill effects.
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 13:59:13 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.63.239.220)
Morning Hogs..
Glad to see were still all talking to one another after a long weekend(HA).
Terry Cross..
In JRs defense, their range is an indoor range and that takes a
lot of the variables out of the equation. I don't know how well the guns
will agg but I have seen his "Wall of fame" and it is impressive!!!
I agree with you totally on the "Great group" we all like to brag about, but like you, I judge my guns on my average for not just the day but for all the groups that I have recorded. I can honestly say my 308 is a solid .4 to .5 rifle and thats over a 300 to 400 round average. I, like you, think this is how a gun should be judged.
Mike M..
I wish I knew the answer to the twist thing that you and JR are
talking about. I have had the same results as you have. I have had 308VSs
shoot 190s with outstanding accuracy and they have a 1-12 twist.
To add to the confusion, A friend of mine has and H&S tactical rifle (one of the older ones) and his shoots the 180MKs better than the 168s and I am sure he said it was a 1-12. So maybe there is no real black and white answer on this one. Maybe there like women, each is different and we will never understand them(HA).
JR..
Steal the action and go with the 6.5x284 and I will take it to the
D&L shoot and break it in for you(HA). Better yet YOU bring it to the
shoot and break it in!!! You will love it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 13:59:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Pat (and JR, etc)
My lean on the twist thing is this... I've had 12" barrels that shot
175's well, and even 190's OK, but also had 12" barrels that were piss
poor with 175's...
BUT!... I've never had a 10" barrel that shot the 168SMK, 175SMK,
or 190SMK poorly... so in my way of seeing it... the 10" is a good insurance
that I will not be dissapointed with it, no matter what I want to shoot...
the M24 I built last year has a 10" barrel, and it is the best/most accurate
30 cal riffle I've ever seen.
... and about your "Breakfast" e-mail this morning!
My son is on the detention list for peeking up a girl's dress.
My mistress is on the cover of "Open Range Monthly".
... and I ran down to the grocery store, and looked at the back
of all the milk containers, and my "EX" wasn't on ANY of them!!
:((
Not looking forward to lunch ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 14:25:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.89)
Guys,
A few weeks back, I had a south-pawed buddy of mine purchase the "left handed Gale McMillan Signature" .308 off of the emporium. Rifle shoots (.247 for 3 three shot groups) and looks great. It has "G. McMillan" on the receiver. BUT... when I sent the serial number to Rock McMillan for a history, he wrote back and said that it wasn't one of their rifles. He advised that "Harris Gunworks" built it and that they are now out of business. Can anyone provide any information on this company??
much thanks,
John R.
John R. <jrr051468@aol.com>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 15:07:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.106.38)
Leupold scope mounts for Marlin 39A: check leupold website. Mount listed
in factory book is 49987 for everything else that works with a lever. Brownell's
sells Weaver blanks, saw it to correct lengh, drill where necessary &
countor as desired.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 16:09:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
158.106.50.3)
'lito..
What do expect, he probaly takes after you and the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree(HA).
I don't disagree with what your saying but as a "Rule" I have found
the slower 1-12 to have the edge on accuracy with the 168s. Now this is
just "MY" findings and I totally agree with what your saying. I would also
believe the 1-11 to be the best for the 175s as in the "Best" accuracy
for that bullet weight. But as you say, to make it simple, get the 1-10
and don't worry about it.:):)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 16:26:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
HOGS..... last Friday I added my 2-cents worth to Kevin's (Andys Dad)
post complaining about slow delivery times from McMillan. It looks as if
I owe the McMillans' an apology (with lotsa' egg on my face! I just received
an e-mail from Terry Cross advising me that my stock was in his hands right
now, maybe even AHEAD of schedule. That's a great breakfast e-mail. Sorry
about 'lito's. With this news about the stock along with Boots Obermeyer's
supersonic delivery time I am :-)))))))
I must applaud the efforts of Terry Cross on this (M40A1) project.
Terry has provided me with many heads-up on his progress, both by phone
and by e-mail, throughout this entire (and so far painless) undertaking!
This is an unashamed plug. We've all heard the tales of woe about some
OTHER riflemakers (not Jerry, or George, or Geoff) on this site. Mr. Cross
should be proud.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 16:40:04 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.74.42)
BTW....... Rate of twist chosen for this Obermeyer 5R, 24", .308 bbl.
is 11.25 to 1 - how's that for compromise ;-)
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 16:47:20 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.74.42)
A Rosterhog's Perfect Day:
10:00 - Wake up
10:02 - Oral sex
10:10 - Big breakfast
11:30 - Drive Off-road in Hummer with gorgeous babe
14:15 - Enormous lunch
15:15 - Oral sex
15:25 - Reload with the guys
16:30 - Shoot at Storm Mountain with the guys
18:30 - Meet Torsten´s sister
18:40 - Oral sex
18:50 - Huge dinner, more beer
23:00 - Full on, get down, sex (sheepy sex for´lito)
23:10 - Sleep
t <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 17:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.14)
M48's and Asphaltum...
I posted something a few days ago, about sealing the bases of M48 projo's for the 50 BMG round, with asphaltum... and I've gotten about eleventy-three requests for a source of it... and I thought youz guyz hated the stuff!!
Go here:
http://www.asphaltum.com/
You can get 10 pounds of it... get the fine powdered stuff, and use toluene, Zylene, or mineral spirits, to make a gooey paste.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
"T"... I've given up sheepies... Just say "NO" to sheepies... in
the sexless, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 17:46:47 (ZULU) (your host
address: 208.249.180.132)
Perfect day:
04:00 - Wake up & take 2 vivarin
04:10 - Get up, put on boots, drink instant breakfast, eat few nutra-grain
bars
04:20 - Grab .338, cross river and climb mountain
16:15 - Kill and field dress bull elk
17:30 - Make scratch bivouac and build little fire
18:15 - Drink water, finish food, drink 1.5 oz Wild Turkey, look
at stars, listen to crazy music cow elk and wind make
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 18:43:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Perfect day???
05:00 - Reach over to turn off the alarm, miss, and fall on the floor!
05:30 - Try to have fantasy of Oral sex... but can't remember what it's like!
07:00 - Small breakfast of Rice Crispys, with water (rugrat drank all the milk, and didn't tell me)!
10:00 - Go to drive Off-road in Jungle Truck with ugly friend, but it has a flat tyre!
12:00 - Macaroni and Cheese lunch!
12:15 - Go down to Sandbox to load 50 BMG, and stick a case in the $200 FL die!
15:25 - Reload .218 Bee instead.
16:00 - Go to post office to pick up stuff from Sinclair Int, and make pass at foxie lady behind counter "Do you do "IT" on the first date?".
16:02 - Put Iodine, and bandaid on bruised eyelid!
16:05 - Explain to Federal police that I was just trying to be pleasent!
18:00 - Have Dinner... (Macaroni and cheese!!)
18:30 - Go to corner bar to have a beer, and whine... sign on door "Gone out of business due to riff-raff clientel"!
19:00 - Want to have a hot fantasy, and turn on TV to "Playboy channel"... Screen says "Your service has been temporarily..."
23:00 - Sleep?... HA!... Pass out!
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
"T"... I've given up sheepies... Just say "NO" to sheepies... in
the sexless, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 19:10:22 (ZULU) (your host
address: 208.249.180.132)
'lito & Torston..
You two are a hoot, I about wet my pants reading your perfect day(HA)!'lito
you should share that joke with the rest of the hogs since you can cut
and paste.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 19:36:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Pablito: Sounds like you've had a lot more of your perfect days than
I have of mine.
t: It only took from 18:30 to 18:40? ALLRIGHT!!
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 20:52:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Folks,
Love the "perfect" day's you guys are having. Think mine runs more towards 'Lito's. On the other hand Daniel/CDC's sounds like MY kind of perfect day!
"lito could visit Oregon. We have llama's. I know several breeders. Be sure to put in a good word for you. Can you send a genialogy...?
Posted about my Stealth last night, but the system refused the post. Go figure...
After two days of testing and breaking in the rifle is shooting consistent
sub 1/2 MOA groups at 100 yards.
Load of choice, so far is:
69 gr. Sierra (AOL: 2.260")
Federal GM Match Brass (New/Prep'd)
Federal 205 Match Primer
26.0 Grains of VARGET.(YOU LISTENING, BRAVO? VARGET! VARGET! VARGET!)
Velocity: 2,953 Average
Tried N140...it sucks. To much velocity spread. Had the same problem in the .308. Is it just me? Heard it likes it hot...will play with it.
Best load for consistent velocity has been WW748.
Mind you, I AIN'T complaining with accuracy like this when it's only got 100 rounds through it!
More later.
Semper Fi,
Wes
(Stealth Lover(and always have been...))
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, April 02, 2001 at 23:26:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 192.6.15.20)
Whoo-Hooo'ing and yelling going on..........
thought maybe 'Lito was on that telephony stuff, and calling to say he just got hooked up with "T"'s sister in person.
Nah!
just Homer Simpson on kids tee-vee.(hhhhhhhhhhhmmmmm??)
Wes,
What powder was that???? ;-) Sounds like that Stealth Rocks!
Chao! Whoo-Hoo!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 00:13:09 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.102.37)
Folks,
Looking for a place to shoot longer ranges in the North Alabama, South Central TN. Longest range I've been able to find is the Blue & Gray Range at Guntersville Dam in AL and it's only 200 yds.
Hopefully the rains will soon end or at least make a shift to the weekdays & give me some dry weekends instead of vice versa.
Any help would be appreciated.
Don
Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 00:48:13 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.180.5.28)
"Why switch to 175's over 168's?!
Duuuuuuuuuuuude, most of the folks here WON'T use anything else.
They make that big a difference at 500 + yards." peteR
The longest range available to me right now is only 300 yards so
it doesn't matter if I use 168s or 175s. Will soon be moving up to a 600
yarder so I will get to test this out.
'Lito - just when I got my screen and keyboard all cleaned up, you HAD to go and make that post, didn't you? LOL!
Damn, but it sure hits close to home, though! ROTFLMAO
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 01:04:51 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.195.184)
A different kinda perfect day.
The last post on a perfect day isn't too far off the truth some days. Being a single dad of a 9 yo son, running a business, and trying (unsuccessfully) to catch a bird from time to time... well, life has its moments!
But I was thinking this afternoon, about what CDC (Daniel ;) said... and it reminded me of a really perfect day in the same vein.
It was back when they had stopped poisoning of dogs for a few years as an experiment, and South Dakota was advertising in the shooting magazines for shooters to come out, and help their problem.
Me and two other shooters were out in SoDak, on a three-week trip, shootin' Prairie dogs.
We were campin' about 15 miles south of the Bad Lands, along the "Big White" (a river called that because the water is like heavy cream... run-off from the Bad Lands).
We were about 5 miles from Interior, a "big city" of 68 people.
We'd been there for about a week, and were getting' the lay of things... we'd given names to all the best dog towns, like "The slopes", "The Flats", "The Corral", "The Grave Yard" (you don't wanna ask).
The local ranchers had gotten the word we were there, and we got invites wherever we went... it was pig heaven.
The days were typically around 105 in the shade, and there wasn't
any shade. The wind was a bitch, 25 to 30 mph, and always came from 3 or
9 o'clock, no matter what direction you turned to shoot.
The shooting was great, but we weren't used to the heat, and we
were all beat up at night.
The land was so flat, you could look west in the evenings, and see tomorrow's weather coming... and mostly, we saw clear skys.
But this one night, we saw black clouds over on the mountains, and lighting coming down to the ground. It was surrealistic, we were just sitting there, makin' up dinner, and watchin this freight train coming towards us.
The rain hit us real hard in the middle of the night, and the lightning
was fierce... but it was over by 5 Am.
We got up in the morning, and the black clouds were right over us,
but the rain front had moved on.
The temperature had dropped about 20 degrees, the wind was down
to nothing, and the air smelled real funny.
We looked at each other, and loaded up the truck, and headed to the
nearest town... "The Flats".
When we got there, the place was lousy with dogs, it was like every
dog was out lickin' the grass for water.
We worked the town for a few hours, til another rain front moved
in.
We beat back to the camp, and sat in the tent all day, drinkin'
beer, playing cards, and tellin' lies about all the women we had... and
laughin' at it all, cuz we knew each other was lying.
We didn't see any other dog shooters in the three weeks we were there,
and the following year, SoDak poisoned 130,000 acres of dog towns.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
"T"... I've given up sheepies... Just say "NO" to sheepies... in
the sexless, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 01:16:41 (ZULU) (your host
address: 208.249.180.31)
Well, guys, you are right dead on target! The Serbu BFG is one ugly
piece of pipe. But he made me an offer I couldn't refuse ;-) I could sell
it today and make a tidy profit. But it's not for sale. After I get a real
brake on it, and tune the trigger, it may be up to a match with the AR-50.
. . or not. I'm planning on going to the FCSA 1k championship match at
Raton. Mostly to learn! I'm not marksman enough to win - but I'm game to
try.
I'm too damn old to hump heavy rifles, or to bellycrawl more than about 5 feet or so. I *like* a rifle that I can carry and has the potential of shooting pretty good at over 1k. Of course, I could get there with an even lighter rifle, but there's a certain appeal to a .50. I may tire of it in a few months, but till then I intend to see what it - and I - can do. Will keep you posted.
I'm having to switch to shooting left-handed because my right eye has problems getting a clear focus. I had cataract surgery a couple of years ago and the right eye came out second best. Left-handed is still clumsy, but better than it was a few months ago. I guess if my eyes worsen, I can always fall back to "spray and pray" shooting! My 1919 runs 250 round belts without hickup. Silhouettes at 500 yards are a bit of a challenge with it, though. It isn't a marksman's gun.
Later!
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 01:23:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.217.73.30)
Sir Wes: N-140 wasn't good to me either, but then I found out that
N-135 was the "right" powder. It did MUCH better, VERY consistent. As in,
more so than AA2520. BTW: got a keg of Varget somewhere on the road to
me as we speak. From what I understand, 140 is ideal for the '06.
Took my boy (Bubba) out on his first real "outing" debticated to shooting. He did well! Introduced him with some ammo that I'm further evaluating: PMC "Target 22". They're 40 grain solid lead standard velocity rounds. I suppose he did pretty good, about 50 MOA ;-) But on the good side, out of 100 rounds, he actually hit the 4 lb cocoa can at about 10 yards several times. Seems he has a tendency to look AT the target, OVER the sights, but that's something his coach will work with him on. The other 50 rounds were Winchester high vel (HA!) shorts. Not as good as those $5.50 per C CCI CB caps though. Nice EASY and QUIET loads for a first real outing. He wants more, so I guess I did my job. He sure looks funny loading up though LOL.
And he and my wife both witnessed this: last round, second mag, failure
to feed. The rest of the 50 went smoothly though. I'll give it this one
as a "gimme", but no more! And to think I broke out the brand new Starline
brass for that! I sure wish Glock would hurry with that "big 36".
Boomhauer
<Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 01:26:27 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.150)
RE: TN Ranges
Oak Ridge probably does not qualify as S. Central TN, but they have a beautiful range facility out to 1k yards, and a couple of silhouette ranges IIRC. It's been years since I shot there, but if I were anywhere near it, I'd go back.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 02:34:37 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.217.73.30)
Bravos' first outing with his boy...Have we all taken the time to introduce
a young person to the shooting sports??? I started a high school kid pistol
shooting last year{son of a liberal colleague of my wife]. He wanted to
shoot and, although the father hunts, we are, I think, introducing the
whole family to the culture of the shooter[in contrast to that of the gun
owner or hunter]. Even if your own kids are grown you can still spread
the gospel..The future depends on the kids. Do your part if you can.
Outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
flock in the Alleghenieies, WV, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at
03:04:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.149.20)
BMG Mike,
Where are you shooting silhouettes at 500 yards around Austin? Inquiring
minds want to know...
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 03:06:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.28.72.4)
Roger C.
The 500 yard range was at Tac Pro, about 3 hours north of Aus.
There is a silhouette range out on Hamilton Pool Road (Hill Country Rifle Range), but I haven't been out there in quite some time. They go out 400-500 yards if memory serves.
I don't think they will let me shoot my BMG there, at least not at that range ;-) They are C3-tolerant, but not that tolerant!
They also shoot a lot of practiacl pistol there.
HTH
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 03:42:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.217.73.30)
All this talk about 22's has made me dig into my safe for my old Remington
513T and pump 50 rounds out tonight after work. I've had the rifle for
a few years (actually bought it for my wife), but never had any documentation
on the scope. It's a 15x R.A. LITSCHERT "SPOT-SHOT" with external adjustments.
Any know anything about these? It shoots great, but the optics could be
a little brighter/sharper. Thanks
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 03:45:24 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.26.63.228)
Gizmo...
Litschert was a small company from around the late 40's to 50's,
that first made power increaser atachments for Lymay TargetSpot scopes...
after a while, they got more ambitious, and decided to make scopes... LITSCHERT
"SPOT-SHOT" was one of these.
They weren't much good... you could say thet Litschirt was the little
engine that "couldn't"!
They have value to collectors, and you might wanna move it on eBay,
and get a nice Unertl (which are back in production).
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 10:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.32)
John,
Nice post! I have made it a practice to bring my kids out when possible,
and always keep "extra" ammunition around for those little Wide eyed wonders
just in case "It's OK W/ mom or dad" to take a few shots.(under strict
supervision and safety naturally)
Of course here in By-Gawd, durn near everyone (except me) has a
backyard shooting range and a LOT more fire sticks!
Heck,
I'll do the same with the "larger" kids too, if they are interested.
Remember our future.........................
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 10:52:50 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.201.209)
PeteR: young folks and shooting....
My daughter and I enjoy playing tic-tac-toe as one of those simple
entertainments.
Well - I've figgered that If I paint several grids of tic-tac-toe
on 'betty', my daughter and I can sit up near the house, call the square
inside of the tic-tac-toe field - and of course - get to keep that square
- if you hit it :)
How's that fer practice :)
Can't wait till the Major and my daughter gets back from Okinawa to try that one out :)
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 11:13:40 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Ref: Disappointed (M40A1 Project)
The riflesmith building my rifle is quite skillful and experienced. He has done some work for me in the past and I was satisfied.
I started him off on my M40A1 project last October. I knew it would take some time so I figured the winter would provide him plenty.
About two months ago I started calling him about every other week to check up on the progress. He told me that everything was done except the bedding of the stock because McMillan has such a long lead time.
A few days ago I e-mailed McMillan whining about the wait and asked if they could please expidite the delivery of the stock.
This morning I got a reply from Kelly McMillan. As it turns out my stock wasn't ordered until 03-01-01.
Needless to say I'm disappointed. I'll see this project through but I guess it's time to shop for a new riflesmith. I don't see any point in confronting the guy at this point so I'll just finish up and move on.
I have no doubt that the finished rifle will be nice. I just can't believe that a fellow in the business would blow it like this.
Next Project: M1A
I'm going to buy a receiver from SA and then have a rack grade rifle built. I'm not going to push for a M-25/21. What I'm thinking of is an excellent battle rifle. I imagine a standard weight barrel and all mil-spec components in a McMillan fiberglass stock. I've already been given some names of men that can do the work but would appreciate any ideas you "hogs" might have.
Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 11:40:42
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Ref: Gun Plumbers
I just checked my computer files and I've lost previous mail suggesting good M-14 techs. Anybody with recommendations please e-mail me with contacts. I'll go hard copy on this info.
Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 11:56:16
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Roger C.
The 500 yard range was at Tac Pro, about 3 hours north of Aus.
There is a silhouette range out on Hamilton Pool Road (Hill Country Rifle Range), but I haven't been out there in quite some time. They go out 400-500 yards if memory serves.
I don't think they will let me shoot my BMG there, at least not at that range ;-) They are C3-tolerant, but not that tolerant!
They also shoot a lot of practiacl pistol there.
HTH
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 12:40:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.217.73.30)
BMG Mike,
The range in Hamilton Pool goes to 400 yds. And they WILL let you
shoot .50BMG. I shot a guy's State Arms .50BMG about six weeks ago there.
I wouldn't take any shots at the guy's gongs with that monster though...
:)
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 12:41:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.28.72.4)
BMG,
Oops, spoke too quick. You meant your 1919 they probably wouldn't
allow. Well, you may be right. The Serbu, no problem. I've seen two or
three guys with .50BMG RIFLES shoot there. But no one with a .50BMG MACHINE
GUN as of yet.
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 12:46:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.28.72.4)
Kevin M..
I don't know what type of accuracy your wanting but a few years
ago a bought a M1A from Springfield and it shot quite well. (This was just
before they started offering match barrels) The only problem I had with
it was that I thought the chamber may be a little on the large size because
its hard on brass. It shoots right at 1.25" at 100yds with nothing done
to it.
I would think that if you bedded one into a good stock with their
match barrels you may have a pretty good battle rifle without doing much
more. Maybe mine is an exception too, I don't know. Its no tack driver
but then for a battle rifle it shoots damn fine in my book.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 13:17:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Ref: Snipers Paradise Shoot
I just read the match description for the shoot in October.
Are any of you planning to attend?
Have any of you attended before?
If so, how is it?
Getting ready to leave for Vegas tomorrow (business).
It's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it.
;-p
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 13:36:51
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Apologies for the multiple posts.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 14:03:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.18.199.196)
testing
ken testing <jim5656@hotmail.com>
nokesville, va, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 14:21:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 192.31.86.35)
Thanks to all who replied about 190's vs 175's. The guilty know who
they are:-) Guess I'll have to find some of that Varget stuff.
'Lito, you mentioned that Unertl is cranking out target scopes again,
do you know if they are refurbishing old scopes (to include 10cm team scopes?)
and if so, what kind of times are they running? Back before John died,
the state was looking to get two of their team scopes refurbished. Unertl
was talking about waiting lists, and the term "years" was used quite often.
Needless to say, that never got done. Plus I have this 18x I'd like refurbed.
it belonged to a small bore guy, and he screwed up the focus bezel on the
objective lens side(probably why I was able to buy it for $125, that I
also bought a pre-war Walther 22LR of his probably helped). That slider
collar just behind the focus bezelring(and just ahead of the locking bezelring)
on the objective bellhousing is torqued down and so the scope will not
focus any further out than about 100yds. Anybody else, feel free to chime
in. I'm not really comfortable disassembling optics that I don't really
know about. Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 15:03:53 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.4.253.164)
Kevin Mussack - RE: Sniper's Paradise Shoot.
Went the first time last year. Match is run extremely well. ROs run a safe line, stages are explained clearly and scoring is simple. The stages range from movers at 70 yards to movers at 600 yards. Larues from 300 to 1000. Bunch of other targets and scenarios in between. You probably have already gotten that type of info from their website though.
I can assure anyone thinking of attending that they will be challenged. The area is very pretty as well as having eats, bars, hotels and beaches close by. The match is fairly and professionally run but courtesy and an open ear are always floating close to the top.
You will see a good mix of competitors ranging from L.E., Military, civilian, young, old, male and female. I can't guarantee you winning but I can almost guarantee you will have a great time. Be ready for the wind as the topography doesn't even slow the wind coming in off of the Gulf.
Anyone thinking of attending needs to get on the stick because they are filling at a fairly quick rate. For any serious details that can't be answered by visiting their site, I would recommend contacting the directors Thomas or Jacob. They are personable, knowledgeable and willing to help.
No Wind,
Terry Cross
Terry Cross / KMW-Long Range Solutions <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 15:29:03 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.197.202)
Daniel/CDC',
OFF TOPIC POST DELETED....
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 15:56:46 (ZULU) (your
host address: 15.254.49.2)
Hi guys, just a quick comment on introducing younguns to shooting.
First off when I take the 12 and 9 yr olds to the pit ( my family owns
a former clay quarry, it's about 25 ft deep with a fairly level bottom
and about 300 yds corner to corner. perfect little private range) we stress
SAFETY first. My father always believed gun safety should be so firmly
ingrained as to be automatic, and I intend to pass this along to my own.
Isn't it just the greatest thing to see those kids' eyes light up when
all of their practice starts paying off with well-deserved groups? It makes
me swell with pride when my boys shoot well. I can't think of a better
way to spend an afternoon with the kids than setting up at the pit and
just shooting 'till dark.
Sorry this is non-sniper related, but it seems important to have another generation of well-schooled, enthusiastic shooters waiting in the wings.
Jim
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Fl, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 16:19:56 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.36.27.12)
155's vs 175's
I checked Federal Cartridge page (www.federalcartridge.com) for specs on the 175 grain Gold Medal Match round in 308 and the 155 Gold Medal Match Round fro the same calibre.
If their data is accurate it seems that the 155 MK should fly straighter and be less affected with the wind than the 175 MK out to 1000 yards.
I also have played with ballistic calculators and it seems that is 1000 yards/meters is the goal then 155 MK should be better. If so why are no one using it outside the Palma crowd ?
My friend loads routinely Lapuas 155 Scenars which have even higher BC than what the Sierra has to 2900 fps and he said he can load the safely to 3000 fps in his Sako 75 Hunter model (22" Barrel, Lapua brass, Federal primers, N150 VV powder) but the barrel starts to foul fast. Also 155 grainers should fit 1/12 twis barrels better than 175s.
Am I missing something here or why are 155s not widely used with bolt action rifles for long range shooting (besides Palma) ? Accuracy shoud not be a problem but or is it ?
Hexa
HExa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 16:35:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.58.22.7)
Andy's Dad: I'll put this out for those who lurk, but it might help
you out some. On the McMillan M1A stock, it's a great stock, so don't get
me wrong. I wouldn't put one on a battle rifle though. On a service rifle
(competition in service rifle comps), it's EXCELLENT. But it's heavy too.
After all, there is only 6 ounces difference between a GI '14 and a M16A2
(both in semi). Part of that weight savings, lots of it actually, is in
the stock. The GI synthetic stock, which they were all SUPPOSED to have,
lightens the load CONSIDERABLY. Another point: you can get one in like-brand-new
condition from Freds, complete with all metal, all cammoed and textured,
complete with matching handguard for $100. Don't get the "sniper" pattern
though, too dark. The GI synthetics can be bedded, and they'll give great
performance for the bucks. They're no McMillans, but it's my experience
that a GI (or GI type) barrel isn't going to give you the accuracy difference
you're looking for going from a proper GI synthetic to a McMillan. And
on barrels: lots of folks don't like to put GI chrome lined barrels on
there. Here's the reason: headspace. With the chrome lining, what you get
is what you get. Not that the GI barrels aren't spec, but the receivers
sure the heck can be out of spec! Sure, you can mess with it a bit by going
with different bolts, but you're talking a few thousandths each way. With
a properly chambered good barrel turned to GI contour, you've got the best
of all worlds, except for the tremendous corrosion resistance, which is
now largely not needed. As Pat said, about 1 MOA +/- 1/3 MOA is the running
average. I've seen plenty that will hold 1 MOA, hardly none that go over
1.5 MOA with decent ball ammo. 'Course, you could get lucky and get that
1/2 MOA shooter too ;-) If you'll be in Vegas for the weekend, let me know,
I'll swing down just to have a good time for a while. It's always good
to put faces to names ;-) For the dough, which isn't much at all over what
Sproingfeld wants, you can have one BUILT with attention to detail and
US GI parts. That's my vote. Let me know if you need Geoffs contact info.
Boomhauer
<Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 17:40:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.9.223.237)
If anyone has a picture or a photo with main dimensions of the Sako
TRG-21 please contact me. I try to build an accurate replic of this rifle
but in my country (Poland) it is hard to find any useful informations about
sniper rifles.
Torsten Eaning - if you read this - please contact me - I lost your
e-mail adress.
Peter <polijarnyj@poczta.onet.pl>
USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 19:56:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
212.160.33.6)
Case cleaning
I have heard that case cleaning media residue left in the case will
damage the barrel. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to pevent this
or what other cleaning method should be used? Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.
Deno <rrrdean@mindspring.com>
Fort Worth, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 21:14:12 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.174.55.172)
Deno...
"cleaning media residue left in the case will damage the barrel"
Not hardly!!
But if it worries you, then wash the cases after you clean them.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 21:59:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.9)
- "Drink water, finish food, drink 1.5 oz Wild Turkey, look at stars,
listen to crazy music cow elk and wind make"
Spoken like a poet.....
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, USA - Tuesday, April 03, 2001 at 23:36:59 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.204)
Mad Dog labs, maker of Mad Dog knives and other interesting stuff,
has decided to go into the sniper rifle stock business. Now would be a
good time to make suggestions and comments on what you want. http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000084.html
I don't know if that'll work, but you can cut and paste. That's over
at TacticalForums, if you care. Semper Fidelis...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 00:15:27 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.4.253.164)
Steve Duey:
Dude!...I removed your off topic post...
Ken
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 00:43:17 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Gents,
About 155 Palma's shooting better than 175's...Remember the Palma
folks are shooting them through barrels in the 30" to 34" range and not
our pidlin' 24" to 26" tubes. They are also using some interesting powers(slow)
and seating the bullets WAY out to get the most of case capacity. Don't
think we're comparing apples and apples here...
Me, I'll stick with 175's and a judicious amount of VARGET! Case
length should not exceed 2.800" in the tactical rifle. If it does, your
cheating, IMHO. You gonna single load in combat?
Barrel twists. I have 1/12" and 1/10" on my .308 rifles. Frankly, I can't tell the difference between them. I stump for 1 in 10" because I occasionally stuff 190's in mine(try it, you'll like it)and believe 'tis better to overstabilize than understabilized.
As for the shenanigans with 1:12's not shooting 175's I've never seen it. Of course if you want to split hairs I can always pull my Obermyer 1:11" tube out of the safe...;-)
Have several posts back on the W70 trigger adjustment. Am going to call patron 'Lito and chat. He said he'd set me straight. Funny, my wife said the same thing when we were dating!
Personally, it's probably an excuse to check out the Oregon Llama hotspots for singles...
Will close for now and await incoming. Remember these are only my humble opinions. Take'm for what you paid for them.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 01:28:23 (ZULU)
(your host address: 198.145.248.48)
Off-topic posts? On this board? If you deleted 'em all, there'd be
nothing left! Must have been something juicy and inappropriate, I guess....
anyway.....
Andy's dad,
That was about the best, most tasteful commentary about bad service...
just subtle, if someone needs more detail they can ask you... wish I had
that much reserved taste.......
Anyone wanna guess where I'm at at the moment? West-By Gawd-Virginia, in Morgantown.... I'm in for the night, at a mine drainage symposium up here at the Ramada... at least I have a laptop... if I had thought about it before arriving, I'd have gotten some phone numbers... as it is I'm pretty much in meetings, then leaving out again... but, as Arnold said.... I'll be back.
Oh, while I'm thinking of it.... Storm Mountain... is it at "Mt.
Storm"? Today, some people over from a coal prep facility near the MD-WV
border mentioned Mt Storm, and it seems to be not far from Elk Garden on
the map. So, I looked at the Storm Mountain website, and noticed that there
wasn't a map or directions to get there, or at least I didn't find them....
Oh, Boomhauer,
Crystal lattice? Aw crap, don't make me think about tetragonal dipyramids
or Miller indices and other crap, mineralogy was SOO long ago... Are you
a chemist-type or a geologist-type like me?
Gonna run sleep now.... meetings start early tomorrow... or else I'm headin' for the hotel bar, see if anyone around is cute.... not w/ my luck!
-L
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 02:30:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 165.176.6.34)
tried to post 3 times wont go this is 4 go please didi
JIM <azgeneral1@aol.com>
az, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 02:59:19 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.177.79.18)
there it goes don't know what happen there.
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
az, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 03:01:31 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.177.79.18)
Clarification on the 155s
For some reason it seems that Palma people need(want?) 30" barrels to push the Sierra 155 MKs 2900-3000 fps safely. Maybe it is because they traditionally use too tight bores likes .296-.298 where a proper 7.62NATO is .300 even. Maybe they use long barrels ALSO because they need long barrels for their iron sights ?
Anyway my friends are pushing 155 Lapua Scenars (molyed) without signs of overpressure out to 3000 fps out of 24" barrels. I did not believe it either but I have seen the rifles, the brass after shooting and nothing looks fishy to me. I made some calculations with ballistic programs and it seems that even with 2900 fps the Lapua Scenar will beat 175 MKs on paper out to 1000 METERS. Out to 700 meters the stated pretty high BC of Lapuas (.505) seems to to be true, at least it the ballistic program and actual trajectories agree on that. We have not been able to shoot out to 1000 meters so we do not for SURE if they fly supersonic out there.
Anyway I agree that people have tested 175 MKs out to 1000 yards and they work. Now I would like to know whether anyone else have tested 155 Scenars (or Sierra MKs) out of 24-26" barrels in real life or are everybody just chanting to the "well known truth" without having tried it first.
In my friends situation two things are different from the past: Lapuas 155 Scenars seem to have better BC than Sierras 155 MKs. This helps. Molyed bullets help in speed department but may cause deviations with cold bore shots.
My friends (two different rifles) have found that if you are not too anal retentive with barrel cleaning, they do NOT get deviations with cold bore shots. This is also against the universally accepted truths. In discussions I have found out that they do not really scrub their barrels but they use the Forrester cleaning foam and thats it. They do not use aggressive ammonium based cleaners or scrub for half an hour their barrels. This is AGAIN against the "universal truths" of long range shooting. I have warned them about possible pitting in their bores but so far nothing has happened. It is possible that there will be suprises later on down the road, though.
So my friends are happily shooting 155 Lapua Scenars out of their 24" barrels out to 2900 fps without much of copper fouling and they can go up to 3000 fps safely. These rifles are used in sniper training and they are not bambied custom rifles or anything. One is a Tikka 55 rebarreled a few hundred rounds ago with a normal quality heavy barrel. The other rifle is a strange Sako 75 Hunter with suppressor, A4 stock and TRG-42 bipod. It wa ssupposed to get a target barrel but because the stock barrel is a hummer, the owner will use it as long as it delivers in the accuracy department.
So I suggest some try these bullets either molyed or not and either
confirms these findings or tell me I am full of it :-) Maybe someone has
already tried them ?
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 03:04:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.120.162)
Leslie...
Man... do you know how to have a good time, Sailor... we gotta party
with a couple of chicks sometime.
Lemme see... we can take them to a drain pump display :)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 03:10:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.116)
I was tinkering with my 308 Winchester while chatting with some marine
friends of mine and we got into a dispute over the accuracy of the standard
m16a2 combat rifle issued to the average marine right out of the armory.
One Marine claimed it shoots 2MOA while another swears by its sub MOA groups.
Anyone know the accuracy guaranteed by the manufacturer? Thanks in advance.
-Chris
Semper Fi
Chris Peltzer <cpeltzer@optonline.net>
NY, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 03:41:38 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.184.105.135)
On Palmas: I tried it once, as Palmas are REALLY close to 147 FMJ's
in weight. I know those folks are shooting those things at 1000 yards MUCH
better than possible with a Hornady 150 FMJ, so I thought I'd try them.
The powders needed to get that velocity out of a 22" M-14 barrel battered
the action, but I did exceed 2900 fps if memory serves. I felt the need
for longevity over that of bullet choice, so I went with the 168's. I haven't
tried comparing the 155s to these 175s, but I'm making the educated assumption
that since these 175's do better for me than the 168's, and the 168's were
better than the 155's, I'm doing the right thing *FOR ME*. Someone with
an archaic "turn bolt" would probably do MUCH better with them. THAT WAS
A JOKE, NO FLAME WARS PLEASE! Anyway, the 175's leave my barrel at the
prescribed (virtually) 2685 fps, and are incredibly light on oprod/receiver
contact. That's all I can ask for.
Leslie: I'm one of the chemist types. Although I only do that because there's no jobs in nuclear physics, and physicists are a dime per dozen. It was one of those pay/enjoyment compromises. It was either that or be Petty's pit crew chief, but he already had one ;-)
Sir Wes: Guess I must be a cheater LOL. Seriously, with proper magazine selection (NOT Sproingfeld) one can seat a touch longer. My OAL is 2.835". Yeah, I know, not enough to talk about HA! But you'll like the way I came up with that number: max mag length minus enough to feed 100%.
Now to my REAL reason for getting on here. Seems that I recall Kent making a statement of not liking the "blast enhancers" (comps and flash hiders) on certain rifles, as it messes up the natural vegitation by blasting outwards rather than in just a slim cone forwards. Please let me know if I'm quoting someone else from my addle brained head, seems it was a LONG time ago. But to counter this, Patron Dave and Guru Bill like the same brake on their fun carbines. Left me wondering, and left the Phantom on mine for now, until I can see Guru Bill in action to make a more informed decision on what fits *MY* use. So I'm going through my junk mail tonight, and I got the mailer of mostly junk (Federal Arms). Something piqued my curiousity, a "LEVANG LINEAR COMPENSATOR". Only holes in the front, at least that's all I can see. Anybody tried one of these? Looks like a can to me. I'd really be interested in anyones comments on it.
Sorry for the non-sniping stuff.
Maroon Label
Boomhauer
<Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 04:08:28 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.180.85.163)
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
This, I think is a good question, cuz it just happen to me.
This is what happen just 10 hrs ago. I had just got in a new lot
of ammo "the good stuff" and had to go try it out bummer huh? Well myself
and my sometimes spotter (when the real ones not on duty) went to my range
(ok a canyon in the AZ. in the outback, cuz its out back of my house) not
25min. away. YEt another great day in AZ. We get over 300 of them here,
more if you don't mind intense heat! Ok to the problem, we started some
drills and practice mostly generic, in the cooler mornig hrs. Soon the
day was heating up and we moved to the lite shade of some tall bushes.
While prone, shooting out to 700 yrds, I noticed some movement on the inside
of my right thigh. First thing I did was look at Terry, thinkin dont even,
but he was glassin the mirage trying to get the fix on the canyon winds.
As I felt the "can be only one thing" slick, sliding, heavyness of a very
large RATTLESNAKE! SH%T! whispering to Terry trying not to get Xcited he
looks over and freaks. First thing he does is pull his knife. I said what
the heck are you going to do with that. Dah! Putting his knife away and
pulling his .45, now i'm scared! What the hell you gonena do with THAT!
In the mean time I'm praying this thing doesn't live on NUTs and berrys.
trying to keep Terry and myself calm I started to eeeezzzzz forward, the
whole time the snake is buzzin away while Terry pointin a .45 at Big jim
and the twins, good god. The buzzworm is pissed cuz it see's terry standin
there, and it keeps trying to hide under my leg. Well while (so he says
later)he was distracting the snake, I slowly slid away from it. He made
a nice skin, the snake that is, along with 9 of his friends that wernt
that close but what the hell, they pissed me off. My other spotter just
would of grabed old jake and bit his head off. Anyway no new holes in me,
but still full of adeneline. With all the extra wet weather we have had
it'll be a bumper crop this yr. Think i'll Hang out at Ben Avery range
this summer.
thanks for the long post.
buzzworn capital. usa
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 05:22:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.177.79.18)
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 07:59:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.156.8.94)
I think that 1-11 is ideal for .30 cal 175gr bullets, for .338 I
tend to go with 1-10 for 300gr bullets, until proof of a better twist.
RE the M-24 made by Remington, my understanding was they won't a
1-11 twist, but the closet they could get to it was 1-11.25 due to the
machinery they had in place.
I have just shoot my .338 Lapua Mag, with moly coated 250gr scenar's,
at 500 yds it put 5 shots into 3.5", the 1st 3 went 2.25", and thats with
a reflex suppressor mounted, I like this gun,the recoil is like a long
soft push,rather than a kick.
Down side, I wish Sako had gone 1-10 twist, then I would be able
to use the new Lapua 300gr Scenar bullet,pose you can't have everything.
Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 08:09:10 (ZULU) (your host
address: 203.97.45.211)
When I was there in 99 I remember a small, above ground, coal pit to the West of Rod´s place.
Play with the Zoom and you should get to the Pit.
His turf used to be the "Sunset Ranch", you can see the old horse track, and at the top just under the word "United" is the 500 Meter slag pile.
I used this printout in preparation for the course and it was a good help on the landnav and range exersises.
hope this helps
t
Have
a look at Storm Mountain, click here <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 09:18:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
193.159.89.226)
On 155 Palma bulletts. I like this bullet and used it across the course in my M14. I have shot it out to 1000 yards and it goes 3000 out of my 28" tube 308 Win. If you look at Balistic Programs it appears to be the best of all worlds but boys(as James says)it dont work out that way. The 175's take less wind correction at 1000 yards than the 155's so I stick with 175's. As was said earlier the 175 beats the 168 and the 168 beats the 155's. That is also my experience so 175 for sniping it is.
Earlier CDC said the 175's ruled at 1000 yards over the 168's and he could not be more correct.
Now a tidbit for guys in Europe. Looks like Thorsten is going to be making a licensed Tuff Cuff Sling just like mine for sales in Europe. We are working out the final details. It will be the same sling and made to my specifications, but no blood stains Pete. Found it just cost too much to ship slings so have them made there.
Undude
One last time Gooch get ahold of me.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 12:37:27 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.85.131)
Well guys, got my Jerry Rice (Nor Cal Precision) rifle last week. Went to the range yesterday to break it in further and to zero the scope. First, I must say, the rifle is a fine weapon; shoots better then me even on my best day. Now I have to find a name that will fit my new rifle :)
Now to my question. I bottomed out elevation on my Leupold XIII LR M3 scope to get a 100 yard zero. By luck I was able to zero my rifle. Has anyone ever seen or encounter this problem with this model scope from Leupold? Any info will be appreciated.
Now for my rifle. You maybe wondering what I ordered, picked up and shot. Here is the break down:
1. McMillian M40A1 Stock
2. K&P (Katie and Patrick) Barrel -- fluted 26" Barrel
3. Standard 700 receiver and bolt. Bolt has two holes to port out
gas. Bolt is trued also
4. Ruger bolt release
5. Badger single mount with 30mm rings
6. Standard 700 trigger set to a crisp 2.5Lbs
7. Muzzle Velocity is 2667 Fps
8 Bullets that my rifle digest is the .308 175 Grain Federal Match
9. Harris Bipod - Bench Rest Short with Notch
10. Eagle cheek piece in OD
I shot at the Sunnyvale Rod and Gun Club in California. It was 49'F with a mild wind working itself either from a full to half and back. The gust was wandering between 5 to 12 Mph. Mirage was light to medium. It was slighlty over cast. One of my shot group was tighter then a nats ass. This was done from the prone position, 5 shot group, using a bipod and my sock by the stock. The shape of my endeavor was one round going through the same hole and the other four creating a four leaf clover -- wow! Never have I ever been able to do this so easily with my Remington 700 DM/PSS. Kudos to Jerry for a well built rifle.
Any info on my question is welcome and appreciated. Thanks!
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 12:54:35 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.211.20.29)
I have not yet went to the 175s like the rest of the guys but will test some this summer since I am getting low on the 168s. I use Varget in my loads and I can push the 168s to 2800fps with no pressure signs at all. So I have stayed with the 168s and at that velocity they shoot well to 1000yds.
If I get a chance I will load some 155s and try them at 1000yds and
see how they do. I can also cronograph the load and let you know what they
do. I would tend to agree with Mike and say the 175s will have the edge
at 1000 esp. with the wind drift and that for me is the biggest variable.
The heavier bullets usually will do better at the longer ranges than the
lighter faster bullets. Just my 2 cents worth.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 13:18:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
155 Palmas and short barrels.
I shoot them on occasion with a compressed load of N550 and WLR primer. I'm at the office so I don't have the exact powder charge to quote.
I do remember that from my 24 inch 1:10 barrel the velocity is 2935, ES is under 10 and SD is under 6. No pressure, good in hot and cool weather. Seating is 0.015 from the lands, length loads in the short action remmy mag well, accuracy is real real real good at longer ranges. there is some signature from the double based powder however.
It is alittle unnerving to hear that powder go "crunch" when the
bullet seats though.
Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 14:25:08 (ZULU)
(your host address: 172.168.154.91)
jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
marathon, fl, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 17:16:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 199.232.255.181)
The Blazer R93 LRS-2 is ok to handle with small hands. I actually checked one out today in a gunshop.
I also checked out a brand new Mauser 98, square bridge magnum action,
in 416 Rigby. WOW!! It's good to see a new genuine M98 with the MAUSER-banner
stamped on it.
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 19:23:35 (ZULU) (your host
address: 193.212.93.33)
Darren Dong...
When you zero the M3-LR, take off the Cam (BCD), and use a dime
to zero the riffle... then put on the cam, with "1" on the hash mark(if
you shot at 100)... once the cam is in place, it will NOT go below "1",
because there is a stop ball bearing in the track, to keep it from going
below "1"... it's supposed to be that way.
Drop me an e-mail if you have any other problems.
Torsten...
$70 for an M19??? Grab it!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 21:52:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.23)
Re: Next Project: M1A
I'm going to buy a receiver from SA and then have a rack grade rifle built. I'm not going to push for a M-25/21. What I'm thinking of is an excellent battle rifle. I imagine a standard weight barrel and all mil-spec components in a McMillan fiberglass stock. I've already been given some names of men that can do the work but would appreciate any ideas you "hogs" might have.
Try Clint Fowler in Virginia. He built me a double lug match grade M1-A two years ago. The rifle is great. He is an active long range shooter and coach, mostl palma. Several of these shooters using his rifles. He is on-line at http://www.m1-m1a-ar15.com
Jerry
Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Balto, MD, USA - Wednesday, April 04, 2001 at 23:22:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.198.24)
Thank you very much to Two Shoes and Sinister Dave for info on the M8 12X..new scope has moved up on the funding list, and apology to Patron 'Lito.....what I call a "case tumbler" is apparently a "vibratory cleaner"....vibrator for short? Anyway, didn't realize they were two different things...and what I need is a vibratory cleaner. Please, no comments (like that's gonna stop anyone HA HA).
Bravo...don't forget to send me that .45 data (You asked, I delivered!!)
Sheepies....Vibrators....Hmmmmmmm
(chuckle) My better half just glanced at my post and saw "vibrator".
WTF! she says, and I am one step away from trouble at this time.
Now have to explain.
Ok, gone away to get hair colored.(?)
Wait 'till I tell her that sometimes we call her and her ilk "sheepies";>)
LMAO!!
Peace, and Out.
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 00:04:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.207.51.82)
The Levang Linear Compensator ain't no can. Just wants to look like one. I believe the ports are slightly angled so that the gasses actually come out in a conical pattern, thereby allowing the compensation effect. If the gasses exited straight out, the desired effect would not happen.
I want to say that some major gun mfg (Bushmaster?) is bringing out a model where the entire forend looks like a linear compensator but I'm not 100% on that. I remember seeing a picture of said beastie but can't for the life of me find it now - of course.
Remember that the Phantom (and Vortex and GI Birdcage) are "flash supressors" not compensators. Their primary function is to hide that two foot long blast of fire you keep getting every time you pull the trigger because you refuse to use decent ammo instead of that cheap ass Russian crap without the flash retardent. :-)))
You don't really need a compensator on a SOCIAL gun (esp an AR) but that flash supressor is a nice addition if you envision yourself EVER having to pull the trigger after the sun sets beyond the whispering pines!
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Arlen Raton ?, FL, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 00:31:00 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.145)
Have recieved the promised prototype mag holders from Tactical Tools, Spokane, Washington.
Black Kydex, look good, very well made. One goes to PeteR and the other to Bravo for test and evaluation, in tomorrow's mail. I'll be working with the others. They also make these for M-16 mags in single and double configuration. From what I've seen these are going to be "good gear" for those wanting to carry a spare mag or two and not look like a beast of burden.
They have a new web site at: www.tacticaltools.com
Give it a look see. The M-14 style holder is similar to the M-16 pictured.
Jen(the good one), if your out there, there is no reason they couldn't made them for the FAL, as well.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 00:39:13 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.249.52)
For personal reasons, I'm interested in communicating with anyone who might know anything about the circumstances surrounding the liberation of Dachau and sniper involvement before, during and after, particularly any information regarding US Army personnel later found to be underage and the shooting of a camp guard (not sniped, up close and personal).
I realize this might sound like an attempt to make trouble for someone, or things along those lines - if you have good information regarding these circumstances, I'll do my best to demonstrate my bonafides to your satisfaction (please note that the reverse of all this holds true, too.)
Thanks for any help or info,
Robert
(US Submarine Service)
Robert <rdbake@prtcnet.org>
KY, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 01:28:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.135.165.32)
Darren D, you still playin' with that M3???..or did you just get it??..
Sir Wes, well, gots mah A4 semi towed this afternoon...
Hart do some real purty work......(((((;
She weighs in @ 14.5#'s even, and w/ scope and rings, base, 16.5......
1-11........we'll see if there's a diff......with the 175's..
As opposed to my 1-12, A3....((((:
Then, we can start a twist RANT!!!!!....HAH!!!!!!
Mr. Mike in Granbury.........you needs to hep us out with your AMAX
tests.......
Inquiring minds need to know..........((:
Bravo Boonhauer?????........got the Arlen, figered that out by meself...but
Boonhauer???......clue some of us OLD ignorant furts in....
Was this a nickname yo mama gave you at birt????>>>>(((;
Sounds like a Soviet bloc wrastler!!!!
Two Shoes
...Outa Here!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 02:36:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.101.162)
Wish I had time to swing by and say hi to Rod this trip, will have to next time I'm up this way...
'Lito,
You haven't hung around enough geologists.... nothin' but beer-drinkin'
woman-chasin' overgrown kids... You wouldn't REALLY wanna go w/ me, tho...
like a buddy of mine always reminds me, since I'm married I can go ahead
and chase the girls but I just can't catch 'em anymore!! Still like to
'browse'..... Gotta tell ya'll, West Virginia is a GREAT place to 'window
shop' for 'em!! Makes NO sense to go after sheepies with all of the FRIENDLY
cuties around here!!! If I wasn't a 'good boy', I'd be dead meat....
Problem w/ this meeting, tho', was there weren't enough geologists,
too many chemistry types - no offense to any present in this crew (Broomhauer!)...
most of 'em aren't as free-spirited as the rock-jocks are... OKAY! 'nuff
on the off-topic....
******
Okay, another REAL question, (military sniping related more than police)
You see all the bullshit in the movies (like Arnold in Commando) where the 'dude' could smell the perp coming, so they attack from downwind. Now, when lions hunt they're usually have a poor hit ratio because they don't use the wind, and whitetail hunters consider it, but people just CAN'T smell as well as a deer...
But!
Isn't it SOP to have security dogs? Ones that COULD tell if a sniper is in position upwind? So, should we consider the wind, not only from the shooting aspect, but from the position selection? Or would it still be rediculous to go that far?
Thoughts?
Okay, I'll quit!!
-L
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 03:50:17 (ZULU) (your host
address: 165.176.6.34)
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 04:18:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
For those of you who shoot AR10's, I am replacing my Loopy quick detachtable mounts (forgive me father's...). Anyone used the Armalite onepiece mount? It seems a little high. Does it measure up to Badgers? Shoudl I even ask that question:)
One other thing, anyone no of a range greater than 100 yards within a couple hours of the Emerald City?
By the way, looks like the powers that be here decided the regular
cops can't use OC properly when they're ordered to stand around with their
thumbs inserted in certain orifices. Next they really won't need those
impact weapons.
STEVE <skylar.burris@gte.net>
seattle, wa, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 04:47:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 65.227.50.193)
Mike M and barrel twists:
I didn't mean to get too carried away with ya there, no flame meant or taken man!! I'm just tryin' to understand, trying to poke some info out of the vast intellect surrounding this site. The only thing I don't have is bore and groove dimensions of the K&P barrels you and Jerry are using. As far as the helix of the cut, as long as it does not impede or upset the bullet along the path of the barrel, which will be easily recognized by variations or even deviations in velocity between barrels, that would not be the effect of the rate of twist. Now, next I might say perhaps a twist rate that was not uniform may upset the bullet to a point where it would throw it off, but for one, if you could see how heavy duty and well built a machine these riflers are, you would not question the uniformity of twist. And also, I think if it was ununiformity of twist rate, it would be noticed, whatever the weight or length of bullet.
I need some real information with both barrel dimensions and bullet dimensions to give a real and complete answer. It could be something so simple as a crown that throws the accuracy off between bullets, perhaps the 11 degree crown isn't well liked by the 175 boattail's but liked by the 168's. #1 thing that throws accuracy off is the crown. that's why I talk to you guys, you are the patrons, if I have changed or will ever change the process by which our barrels our made, it has been and will be largely due to you. But ya gotta convince me first.
Mike, you gotta consider that I look down thousands of kaleidescopes of groove configurations and twists and turns every year. There isn't a barrelmaker out there that isn't a little kooky, I'm not used to looking at the world without bein' cross eyed, hell it usually takes a few beers to straighten em out!! hahah
Palmas and their 155's:
I am not sure of Palma bullet diameters, but compared to 308 Wins, they are usually much tighter barrels. A Palma barrel can run to .3065" groove diameter, very tight, where a tight .308 is around .3075-.3080.
Who dares question our 100 yd 3 shot group? hahahhahah:
Maybe if the economy picks up we'll go to 5 shot groups, ammo is pricey these days :) pat says: check out the WALL OF FAME!!! LOL
Pat:
maybe at D&L we'll be lucky enough to shoot thru this pea soup
fog that's been hangin' around the hills lately!!
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city , dakota, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 06:15:44 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.34.14.24)
We'll break it in right too 'lito, none of this, "Just shoot them" approach you have come up with!!(HA).
JR..
If you find the answer to the twist thing be sure to let us know!!!
I don't know if you read where I said that a friend of mine has one of
your older H&S tactical rifles (that was built on the Remington actions)
and it shoots the 180MKs like a dream and I am sure its a 1-12 twist unless
you guys just changed to the 1-12s a while back.
As far as groups go, I don't think a lot of guys realize what its
like to shoot on an indoor range where there is no outside factors affecting
your bullets. I have read that most groups will be at least a third tighter
than the ones shot outdoors no matter how nice it is outside.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 13:20:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
A couple years ago I had him build me a double lug also. Yes it shot well, but there were some major issues that I would have handled differently if same happened now.
1)Chamber looked like it was threaded - probably didn't clean out the chips when he cut it. He originally said to shoot it that way. When I finally convinced him to take a look, (after I threatened to walk it up and down the line at Perry), his fix was to "polish out" the ridges. The diameter of the chamber was expanded by .007". Now, I would insist that HE replace the barrel at his expense.
2)He advised of a "tight spot" in the bore where the op rod guide was. Said it was very hard to get onto the barrel, and advised that I fire lap the barrel to remove said tight spot. This solved the problem of couple thousandths tight spot in the bore, but I should have asked why he didn't FIT THE PART to the barrel, as he was being paid to produce a custom built gun. Again, I should have had him replace said barrel.
Now, with all this said, I understand he usually builds a fairly
accurate rifle. Take it for what it's worth, but I won't ever have him
build me another one.
Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West, PA, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 16:20:38 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.107.135.116)
Heads UP!!
Youz guyz know about Rosie O'Donnel's anti-gun attitudes (except for her bodyguard)... and her open hostility towards ALL GUNS, and the crap she dumped on Tom Selleck on her TV show???
Well she has a website, and a "Gun ownership poll" on it... (as in "who should be allowed to own guns").
Go their, click on your choice, and then see the tally of the poll... serves the pig bitch right... HA! Double HA! to you, pig bitch Rosie!
http://www.rosiemagazine.com/causes/index.jsp
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 16:48:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.91)
Been having some trouble with some rounds I've loaded up. I'm using IMI brass with Varget and 168 MK's in my PSS. The problem is some rounds feed, chamber, and lock without a problem. Then another round will feed and chamber without any problems but locking the bolt into position requires some considerable effort. This goes for unlocking the bolt also. Extracting the round is without effort.At first I thought it was from just neck sizing the cases, but full length sizing the cases didn't solve anything.
The cases are not showing any signs of excessive pressure, besides the highest chage I've used so far has been 45 gr.
I'm using Lee dies on a Lee press.
Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.
Armin Wahl
Semper Fi
Armin Wahl <sgtwahl@yahoo.com>
Oxford, MS, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 17:18:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 130.74.43.74)
Two Shoes: That one is easy, but off topic, I'll send you an e-mail.
Moe: thanks for the heads-up on the Levang. I'm guessing I'll pass for now on it. AA2520 has the flash retardents in it from the factory (I asked), but I haven't tried Benchmark after dark yet, so I don't know about it. Don't know about the utility of a flash hider anyway.
Boomhauers Sniper Country Top 10 list:
1. Master Rick
2. Three Patrons, 'Lito, Dave, and Mike
3. Two Gurus, both Bills (DC8 and 'Yote Bait). Oooops, only one
guru posts anymore.
4. Several great friends on here, many I've got well beyond posting
with, and even a few that I feel I can DEPEND upon.
5. Mike from Granbury, one of the most underappreciated posters!
6. No more 10 page treatises on why 'Lito is an ass, kiddies with
silly questions, or arguements over lightweight gear, thanks to Ken and
the password stuff
7. Sheep, Torstens seeeester, buzzworms, good days/bad days, and
ghillie suit munching dogs (it's only funny 'cause it turned out all right)
8. EVERYTHING is on topic. Well, mostly. Some anyway.
9. All the folks that turned out on Patriots USA to give their two
cents about the nasty evil gun grabbers, treasoners, and the warmed-over
league of nations, and other "political" topics
10. It only takes me 3 minutes instead of all my lunch break to
read the days posts now
I need a good cold beer, or twenty.
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 18:07:10 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.9.223.237)
I have read quite a few of your posts and I must say that you seem
to be very well-respected by the members of this site. I have a fairly
simple question for you. What brand of reloading equipment do you use/recommend?
I don't want to start out with junk and I trust your opinion.
Thank you in advance,
Jim
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Fl, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 20:24:48 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.36.27.203)
I see the Rosie O poll is in favor of anyone owning guns without restrictions. (89%)
Mired in the mud here in 'sconsin.
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 21:33:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.224.22.84)
Later today we're off for a short rest, and will only be back on Easter Monday. Now play nice while I'm away, and don't break the place down. Ken is now in charge (he is quicker than me in any case, and is really helping us a lot even before).
Take care
Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 22:30:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
155.239.180.191)
Two Shoes
Back to Mall Ninja status....
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 23:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.105.53)
Boomhauer
Dog is fine and useless as the day I adopted her. They won't take
her back!
Steve:
"1)Chamber looked like it was threaded - probably didn't clean out
the chips when he cut it. He originally said to shoot it that way."
"2)He advised of a "tight spot" in the bore where the op rod guide
was. Said it was very hard to get onto the barrel, and advised that I fire
lap the barrel to remove said tight spot."
You're a hell of a lot nicer than I would have been! I probably would
have told him what he could have lapped and showed him how!
Leslie:
"Isn't it SOP to have security dogs? Ones that COULD tell if a sniper
is in position upwind?"
By grannies you get down wind of Sniper Mutt with a ghillie and your
ass is hers! Thinking about applying for Master Sniper Tracker status for
her, she ain't good for nothing else.
Torsten:
A shooter of your stature shouldn't be seen with one of those old,
outdated sets of bino's. I'll give you $80 to save you the embarassment.
Nothing more, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 23:16:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.49.119.49)
The issue of handloading equipment is always a hot one with most
guys defending their personal equipment... (I've never heard anyone say
"I use XYZ, and it sucks" ;)
... but with that said, most of the stuff on the market will work
to some degree or another, or they would be out of business.
I load on almost a commercial for myself, so I'm a bit rough on apprasing loading gear, and I know that this will get "Incoming!"
Every personal friend I have, that has owned Lee presses and dies (and defended them), has sold them, and bought Dillon.
I like Dillon, and Hornady progressive presses...
Dillon dies are... EH!
The hornady dies... When I bought my Hornady progressive presses
years ago, the dies that came with them were such junk, that I literally
threw them in the garbage.
I recently got a Hornady 50-BMG press (with dies), and the dies
were so outstanding, I couldn't believe that Hornady made them (but they
DID).
I figured that since the dies were almost $200 by themselves, maybe
there were special... Just got a set of .218 dies from them, and they are
the same fine quality... they have a sliding "match grade" seating die
(like the Redding BR die), the Sizing die has a beautiful. tear shaped
expander button that will straighten out dented mouths (like on .223 ond
.308 military), that anybody elses will crush... and and the set was $25
(cuz they are "special)... .223, .308, and 300WM etc, are $22 (from "Lock,
Stock, and Barrel"). I don't know how they can make these dies for so little...
so now Hornady are high on my list.
Best progressive presses... Dillon (550, 650, Super 1050), and Hornady!!
Best powder measure for progressive presses... Hornady (with the
automatic actuator thingie).
Best powder measures for hand use... Redding, and Hornady.
Best Dies... Redding (BR series only)... Forster and Hornady (all).
Best single station press... CH "Champion" (at 30 pounds!! but expensive),
Either Redding, Hornady... all are big job presses. RCBS Rockchucker is
OK, but the others are Poor!
Best 50BMG Presses (and dies)... Hornady, and Hollywood Turret (both
are great dies, along with CH 50BMG dies).
A lot of RCBS stuff has slid down... I have 4 sets of RCBS "Custom
Match" does, that are collecting dust... my RBS powder measure was so loose
that ball powder came out from the sides of the drum...
Don't buy cheap loading stuff, thinking that you will upgrade later... there is NO market for used "low end" loading stuff.
That's it! Gonna hide from all those "Lee" guys, and their incoming ;))
'lito
PAblito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 23:31:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.27)
Metalurgists needed...
I need to know what temperature Brass starts to "aneal".
I know that it is recomended to take it up to 700-750 to aneal case
necks, but I have the other problem...
Washed a bunch (a LARGE BUNCH) for 50BMG cases today, and put the
first batch in the oven to dry at 200-F... all was fine (I've done this
for about a 100 years)... put the second batch in, and for whatever reason,
the temperature was 350-F when I took it out (inside thermometer).
Now... at what temperature does the brass crystal start to change,
and the case head start to soften... there's a lot of money involved here,
so I don't want to just dump them...
Please, no guesses, no "I think" or "My friend said"...
... I need real skinny from someone that really knows, or has access
to metalurgical references.
'lito
PAblito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 23:44:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.136)
I've got the Armalite 1 piece mount and I love the thing, actually
I've got two of them. One of them is a 30mm mount for my Leupold Long Range
and the other is a 1in. mount for my B&L Elite 4000. Both mounts do
the job well enough for me on my ARs that I'm pretty uninterested in searching
for another mount to put on a flattop AR15. No, the Armalite mounts aren't
Badger Ord. quality but they ain't bad either. Armalite claims that they
have tried their best to make these mounts so that they mount the scope
so that it's centerline is at the same height as the regular A1 or A2 sights
found on an iron sighted AR15, it turns out to be a very comfortable height
for me. It also mounts the scope high enough for a 50mm objective to clear
even a set of regular A2 handguards. My Armalite mounts reset close enough
to zero that I either can't tell the difference or I can't shoot the difference,
good enough for me. I've pulled my scope from the rings about 8 months
after I mounted the scope and there weren't any sings of the scope having
been "ringed" by the mount's rings, ofcourse there are those around these
parts that would lap the rings anyways but I'm not one of them.
Moe Mensale Yes! Bushmaster was the one who made the full length handguard that
met flush with the end of the barrel. Yes, it did look like an integrally
suppressed outfit, it also looked like you could use the thing as a baseball
bat rather than a firearm. I don't have a problem with a long freefloat
tube on a carbine, in fact I'd kinda like to have one on my next precision
AR but Bushmaster took it to an extreme with that rifle. Muzzle was flush
with the end of the handguard though so there was no flash suppression
or muzzle brake effect at work there, I wonder if the muzzle blast made
the handguard ring in your hands like if you had hit an aluminum base ball
bat against the cement curb? Also, they completely did away with the front
sight, it's a perfectly round tube from just forward of the receiver all
the way down to the muzzle. The rifles were made in limited numbers for
Kiesler's Wholesale.
For the "would you like some cheese with that whine" commentary of
the day,
OWWW my freakn' hands! What is it that makes trimming and deburring
223Rem such a darned pain in the palms? Just trimmed and deburred 80 rounds
and my hands feel like they are about ready to fall off. It's been awhile
since I've reloaded, is it possible for you to get out of shape from reloading?
Man, I knew I was outta shape but I didn't figure that reloading 80 rounds
would kick my arse! What saddens me most is I've got a lot more to do!
If the weather gods are nice to me tomorrow I'm heading to the range to
work on my sunburn(gotta get the neck nice and red) and I need some rounds
to keep me busy while I'm there.
Lito' about that Rosie poll, funny stuff. Yesterday I while cruising
the AR15.com forums I watched as the gasgunners bumped that poll from 60%
for no restrictions on gun ownership to well above 80% for no restrictions
on gun ownership. That confirmed it for me, those guys have nothing else
to do during the day other than press a "submit" button several hundred
times so that they can crush a poll. No biggie though, still makes me laugh
my butt off.
Boomhauer(Bravo), this guy has been watching too much "King of the
Hill" and I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not. If he starts talking
jibberish like the character Boomhauer does on the show then we know we've
got a problem, the sun must be effecting Bravo and it shows.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
What scope are you using? Unless it has 1MOA elevation adjustments
like the Lupy M3's you will only get to 750 yards before you run out of
elevation. If you use 1/4 MOA adjustments you will need a 20MOA rail to
get you out there. I have used several set ups on my AR-10's going each
way. My old "T" model has a US optics adjustable riser rail that is in
10, 20, or 30 MOA. I set it at 20 with low MK 4 rings and a 3,5 x 10 x
40 M1LR. This gets me to 1000 yards in 41MOA and leave about 3/8" between
the scope and the front tube. A Blackhawk cheek pack raised 1/2" makes
it a perfect. I have used the GGG Rails with the same rings and scope setup
on some other AR-10s and they work also. This set up is about 1/4" lower
than the USO rail and has the adventage of being fixed. I have also used
the Armalite mount with a M3 Lupy and it does the job.
Hope this helps.
Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
What scope are you using? Unless it has 1MOA elevation adjustments
like the Lupy M3's you will only get to 750 yards before you run out of
elevation. If you use 1/4 MOA adjustments you will need a 20MOA rail to
get you out there. I have used several set ups on my AR-10's going each
way. My old "T" model has a US optics adjustable riser rail that is in
10, 20, or 30 MOA. I set it at 20 with low MK 4 rings and a 3,5 x 10 x
40 M1LR. This gets me to 1000 yards in 41MOA and leave about 3/8" between
the scope and the front tube. A Blackhawk cheek pack raised 1/2" makes
it a perfect. I have used the GGG Rails with the same rings and scope setup
on some other AR-10s and they work also. This set up is about 1/4" lower
than the USO rail and has the adventage of being fixed. I have also used
the Armalite mount with a M3 Lupy and it does the job.
Hope this helps.
Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
I like the Hornady press, and use it lots. Used one for a long time
now. The next one will be a Dillon big 'ol mamba-jamba uh-huh! The *ONLY*
reason is because I don't like adjusting those pawls on the underside.
Dunno why, but it worked for a LONG time (years) without any adjustment,
now it's moderately frequent that I have to adjust it. I'm guessing they
put some thread locker on the adjustments? Dunno, but I don't have anymore
"easy" LocTite to use, and I won't use blue.
And on the dies, the *ONLY* die I've ever got a casing stuck in is
the Hornady sizer, this one in 5.56 NATO (223 for those who came in late).
It sounds like the same dies that 'Lito described, but you could see mild
"swirls" inside the sizer die. I took a gamble, and lost. Oh, and it wasn't
a lack of lube, I use the Hornady one-shot, and none of the others ever
got stuck.
Powder measures: I prefer the RCBS, although with the pistol drum
and micrometer dial. It resides on the Hornady press, the Hornady measure
(with the pistol insert) is too tight. Tight enough that while loading
a K of 7.62, it quit working completely, necessitating the pulling of that
batch of bullets to find the non-charged ones in the cartrigde catcher.
There were some. Oh, the pistol inserts charge 308's GREAT.
On RCBS: I've given up on them. I've got some die sets for sale as
a matter of fact. Except the pistol stuff. I like the grey box pistol dies,
along with an auxillary Hornady taper crimp die. The two exceptions would
be the rockchucker (which I won't get rid of, but as 'Lito says is "half
way"), and the bench mounted autoprime unit. I really like mine. Basically,
I'm slowly exchanging all my RCBS dies for Redding BR's. They're really
the cat's pajamas (thanks 'Lito!!).
All of this shouldn't be taken as a "'Lito is wrong". He's been at
this about 70 more years than I have, and I've got nothing but huge amounts
of respect for him. I'm just putting out the "other side". Kind of like
a Sproingfeld pistol, it seems that some work, some don't. Personally,
I've had *GREAT* service from RCBS, and half way at best from Hornady.
Guess the take-home message is: spend your dough, take your chances.
Oh, and I'll ask our resident metalurgist your question at work tomorrow.
Squirrelboy: Nope, I'm all right. Shot another 50 rounds off today
after work, before it started SNOWING again. Jibberish eh? HA! Yeah, that's
part of the reason I took on that "Boomhauer" name. Some folks think I'm
to be ignored or dismissed easily. Don't know, don't care.
Hey, loading is RELATED to sniping! Gotta shoot something, right??
Titan - can find my mic - I will take a round (77gr HSM) to a buddy's
and get him to spec it. OR Sinister got your handy?
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
I can't spell
Uglygun, you're right, those guys on ar15.com have absolutely no
shame. That "poll" was great, eh? I cast my vote too!
'Lito was right - screw you pig bitch!
BTW, apparently you were very bored if you hung around long enough
for them to bump the poll from 60% to 80%! LOL :-)))
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
The good ones don't say: "Drop the arty here!"
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
I think you're safe. "I think?" because I don't know the specific
alloy of brass 50 cal cartridges are manufactured from. I am using High
strength yellow leaded brass data Cu-5Zn
American Society of Metals, Metals Handbook, 1986 Desk Edition. Section
28-68, Principles of Heat Treatment of Nonferrous Alloys.
Table 1: Hardness drops precipitously at 400 degrees Celsius (752
deg F) from about 150 Rockwell to 60 Rockwell in 22 minutes of exposure
time.
Table 2: Hardness starts to deteriorate at 130 Rockwell after exposure
to heat of about 360 C (680 F) and drops dramatically to about 48 Rockwell
over a temperature shift of only about 100 degrees C)
These data from two charts are interpolated to probably about 20
degrees plus or minus. 350 F is way below the danger point it seems. Use
a spring loaded center punch and punch a mark in the case head on both
the heated and virgin cases. Compare the two indentation diameters with
a magnifying glass. That should give you a gross feel for how soft the
heated cases are in relation to the virgin ones. I think you'll be pleased.
In other news, I've dumped a Benelli Super 90 M1 tactical and purchased
a Marlin .22 bolt action plinker with some of the $$. For you super BB
shooters, what's a good glass match for the rifle. Appreciate input.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
I think you're safe. "I think?" because I don't know the specific
alloy of brass 50 cal cartridges are manufactured from. I am using High
strength yellow leaded brass data Cu-5Zn
American Society of Metals, Metals Handbook, 1986 Desk Edition. Section
28-68, Principles of Heat Treatment of Nonferrous Alloys.
Table 1: Hardness drops precipitously at 400 degrees Celsius (752
deg F) from about 150 Rockwell to 60 Rockwell in 22 minutes of exposure
time.
Table 2: Hardness starts to deteriorate at 130 Rockwell after exposure
to heat of about 360 C (680 F) and drops dramatically to about 48 Rockwell
over a temperature shift of only about 100 degrees C)
These data from two charts are interpolated to probably about 20
degrees plus or minus. 350 F is way below the danger point it seems. Use
a spring loaded center punch and punch a mark in the case head on both
the heated and virgin cases. Compare the two indentation diameters with
a magnifying glass. That should give you a gross feel for how soft the
heated cases are in relation to the virgin ones. I think you'll be pleased.
In other news, I've dumped a Benelli Super 90 M1 tactical and purchased
a Marlin .22 bolt action plinker with some of the $$. For you super BB
shooters, what's a good glass match for the rifle. Appreciate input.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Bravo...
The automatic hard disk organizer just kicked in...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Scopes- I think it depends on how serious you wish to get?
I have a few "old" Leupold 3.5-10x50mm EFRs on my "recreational"
BB gunz and a 8-32x44mm(?)R/A Burris on the serious one.
Its like anything else - Good Glass can make a real difference.
I use British Sportsmatch scope mounts (two base bolts - four ring
screws)which you probably have not heard of, and they hold everything together
quite nicely. Get good rings and not cheap blue light specials......
Chao!
Now I wonder what the odds of Good 'ole Rosie posting the results
of THAT poll are? Think she'll devote an entire show to it? HAHA
'lito..
I'm looking for info on making some cammy jammies for my new rifle,
anyone got any helpfull hints on how I should start it off. Thanks in advance.
Mayhem out!
I did the push punch thing on 5 good cases, and 5 suspects... everything
is fine... thanks.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
http://www.auctionarms.com/
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Poor doctors, they're having a hard time operating because every
time they cut into her she bleeds mayonaise.
Felt after all the talk about the gun poll on that Rosie poll it
was time for some TRUELY GOOD NEWS. LOL! I wonder how big of a chunk she
bit out of her hand when she was chompin down on that sandwich? So if she
bit into her hand while eating a sandwich would that make it a ham sandwich?
Well, time to get back to reloading.
Handgun Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2001 (Introduced in the
House)
To provide for the implementation of a system of licensing for purchasers
of handguns and for a record of sale system for handguns, and for other
purposes.
MikeL
<mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
"Most well-made commercial telescope sights will stand up to two
or three hundred rounds of full-charge ammunition. Many will stand up to
500. Almost none will stand up to 2000. A sniper does not fire 2000 rounds
for blood, but he may well fire that number or more in practice, and there
is the problem."
This is a new one on me. Any comments?
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Yeah... meadow muffins! (and Tabascos ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Girlfriend, affectionately known as Meatwoman, will be moving back
to the Bolt plantation at the end of the month. Been working out of town
for a long 2 years now. Maybe I can finally get her behind a rifle and
pistol. She already knows the ins and outs of box cutters but she has to
get too close to use them LOL!
What am I going to tell the sheepies? :(
Looking forward to good food for a change, Bolt out!
I saw your post on the Bushmaster AR15 with the full-length handguards.
I was in Kiesler's last week, and saw one of those things. Looks like an
AR with a Suppressor, but of course it is not.
They got all kinds of stuff. I have found some good deals at Kiesler's,
and love to go "window-shopping" in their Class 3 Dept.
They are a Distributor for ARMS products, and Trijicon. Usually got
some good ammo deals going too. I bought several cases of 9mm 100gr Ballisti-Clean
Lead-Free ammo for $100 a case. Works great in Glocks, and SW76.
I found me a like new Benelli M1 S-90 Combat Shotgun there for under
$800. Guy that bought it kept it a couple weeks, and traded it back in.
Brand new it would cost me over a grand.
Best Regards,
>>"Maybe I can finally get her behind"<<
Dude, you been with my old (ex) girlfriends too long ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Moe: Don't get me wrong, I'll surely keep the issue flash hider on
my '25. I believe in what you're saying. I'm talking about a comp on the
CAR, where they already KNOW where I am, and if they don't, they will after
the first burst anyway. I can see one being a good accessory on such a
CQB type carbine. It's not like I know what I'm doing with one though,
I've had PLENTY of flash hiders, no compensators. Guess I can see the utility
of being back on target QUICK, as well as the improved target aquisition
when working multiples. Just thinking you understand!
Snipers (and spotters) carry pistols, and as I read it, they're 1911's.
Thus this portion of the post. Ran 50 rounds of UMC ball through the Sproingfeld
today, no jams. Maybe this thing just doesn't like truncated cones. Both
types gauged fine, so it can't be that. Thoughts?
All my scopes shot just fine until now. I fully expected them to
last decades, now I know they could only last a few months at best.
The spousal support unit says your posts are to be now and henceforth
ignored, as I've informed her that new optics are in order for ALL the
rifles in the safe. ( keep posting info like this, got other things I want!
How long do spotting scopes last???? )
The good Colonel could not possibly err...............could he?
What is the rest of the story?, if referring to generic commercial
scopes as found on hunting rifles, and in discount stores, he's scored
a "HIT", we won't even go to taaa----ttaaa, tabasco land
if the reference mentioned is made inclusive of the "Topenders" that
us UKD afficianados favor e.g. M-1, M-3, Ultras, B&L Tactical, Kahles,
S&B,
well, "Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssss"
NOT bashing the Col here guys, just the lack of data to corroberate
(SP?)the statement.
Boltster,
Congrads, but keep her away from the Burlap......................
;-)
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
There are a couple of methods that I've seen published, and at least
one of them is wrong. I'm doing some analysis of the problem and would
like to get as complete a bibliography as possible.
Thanks!
Mike
How you doing? Just find what kind of bullets that SA 1911 likes,
and then load a billion of them, and forget the rest.
I saw your post about the Brakes on AR's. I got the AK74 Brake on
my shorty. It works good, but with powder that has little if any flash-retardant,
I get big flashes. The answer? Use ammo that doesnt flash. I have found
that most ball ammo doesnt make any flash at all. I got some old PMC 55gr
ball that makes one hell of a fire-ball though. Saving that for 4th of
July!
Scopes not lasting a thousand rounds? My MK4 M1 is still on the M25,
and it sure has seen over a thousand rounds. Works like it was brand new.
I have "broke" a couple of SA Gov Model scopes on M1A's though. Even those
went a thousand rounds. By the way, SA replaced the scopes, no problems.
Have a good weekend!
Best Regards,
The Colonel has been down on variables since forever, and considers
anything optical with internal moving parts suspect...Remember gentlemen,
the Colonel is of a different age, and, although he's been a rifleman all
his life, his opinions may not be based on current exposure to, and experience
with, state of the art technology. Those of you who have had the opportunity
to talk with him, in person, in recent years know. We all owe Jeff a lot
and at this point should should not jump in his s*#t. Think I'll just smile,
hang onto all my old Loopys and hope they go another thousand rounds or
so, and maybe go stroke a 1911 or two.....................
Bravo....Your 1911, according to Cooper, should feed truncated cones...This
was NOT printed on any sort of tablet though!! Good luck, everyone needs
one GOOD 1911, at least...
Outa here
Any of you guys have the RCBS case prep center or whatever the little
gimick gadget is? It has the primer pocket cleaner on it, a deburring tool
for inside and outside of the case mouth, plus a few other little attachments
on it, it spins all the pieces for you and all you've gotta do is put the
shell on there and let it do the work for you. After rolling another 80
rounds today my hands are killing me from doing all the deburring on the
223Rem cases, holding the case in one hand and holding the deburring tool
in the other is a pain.
I'm thinking about getting an auto case trimmer, I've expressed that
desire before in the past but I just haven't acted on it yet. I'm beginning
to think about this other little case prep center thing as well. I'm not
expecting it to help me turn out higher quality rounds, I'm hoping that
it will help me crank out some "squirrel fodder" at a faster rate without
causing nearly so much agony to my hands/fingers.
Two back to back days of reloading has kicked my butt. Gonna do the
same thing on Sunday and Monday as well. Gotta work tomorrow.
I'm thinking about trying out one of those Hornady seating dies as
well as a resizing die. I've been using an RCBS Small Base resizing die
since I'm shooting these gas guns so much, I'm not totally sure if I need
the SB die or not and I'd like to see if I can get away with a normal resizing
die and not have to work my brass so much. If the resizing die thing doesn't
work out I guess I can always just keep the seating die and let the sizing
die go or save it till I get a bolt gun.
Bravo, I need to hook you up with my 14.5inch barreled Bushmaster
with it's AK74 brake. I think you'll re-evaluate after firing the gun in
a low light situation just one time, the muzzle flash is enough so that
everyone will start calling you "Blinky." After the first shot, when you're
trying restore all the night vision aquity that you lost, you'll more than
earn the nickname. You've really got to use powders with flash suppresant
in it or you'll look like a gopher who's just stuck his head above ground
during broad daylight.
I've fired my compensated AR a few times at night, whew doggies does
that thing gotta muzzle flash! Wish I had the dough to get a preban so
I could slap a Vortex or Phantom on there. It's not about the other guy
finding you by your muzzle flash, it's about you being able to see the
other guy beyond the first shot. That's my take on the situation atleast.
Outdoors in daylight conditions, it would be the compensator all
the way. But low light outdoors or low light indoors and the flash suppressor
is the winner. If you've got a 16 inch barreled preban upper I guess you
could remove your flash suppressor and try out a muzzle brake for awhile,
I won't be one to try to stop you from spending your money :)
http://www.cybersurf.co.uk/JeffCooper/
Col. Cooper was one of my teachers and I respect him. But sometimes
he says things that I find startling.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
The Marlin will look funny with my spare Loopy Mk 4 M1 16X on it!
Thanks for the input guys. BTW, I used to have a B&L Elite 4000
that had the clearest optics I've ever seen. Of course it wasn't "tactical"
matt black so like a FRIGGING IDIOT, I traded it away. Anyone have the
Leupold 2.5 x 8 EFR scope? Any thoughts on a Weaver 36X (for a pending
project!).
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Of same caliber as what ever you are loading.Run the fresh fired
brass over the SS one first, and then over the Brass one...slicks the inside
of the case neck.
Two VSR drills will do the same thing.....
I may be a tad anal, but I think it improves uniform bullet release,
as long as your brass is trimmed to the same length.
Do these procedures, AFter, you have taper reamed the inside of the
case necks.
Also, order a BJONES carbide cutter......$28.00 and you'll never
need another.
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
Any one have any idea as when it will be out and the approx price.
Chris
B. Douglas, Bravo,
Mike
I was turning over an' over in bed last night, thinkin' about all
them broke-a-fide scopes down in "The Sandbox".
Markwell...
We see it in politics, where Rosie O'Donnel, and Babs Streisand become
"experts" on foreign policy... or we take the opposite attitude, and say
"If they are wrong on X,Y,Z, then they don't know poopie about A,B,C..."
I have enjoyed Jeff Copper for many years (more than most of you
young whipper-snappers)... cut him a little rhythym on this one... scopes
are not his forte'...
Uglygun...
I was talkin' to a fellow rosterfarian on the horn one night, and
the subject came up, and he wanted it... I told him what I didn't like
about it, and that I thought it wasn't very useful, but he had a woodie
for it, so we did a deal.
However, if your hands are getting real beat up with 80 cases, you
might like it.
Avoid the RCBS case trimmers... power, and manual. I have one power,
and two manual, and they are real junk... like much of RCBS's stuff these
days, it's a good design, with very poor execution.
Bill0294...
If you do it by hand, don't do it in the dark, lookin' for the red...
red comes in at about 1600-1800 F... way to hot.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Step 1)Turn on C-D and light incense
Step 2)Spend three hours a day sticking your hands into them with
full power strikes.
Step 3) Case prep will be a doddle once the fingers stop bleeding
and the calluses develop..........
Juuust Kidding, Actually, I do a lot of my case prep work in a small
lathe, chucking the various bits and carefull hand holding the cases. ;-)
Markwell,
Like I said, I ain't slamming the Col., I have the highest respect
for him and his accomplishments.
Ahhhhhh,
For those of youn'z making fun of my snake pictures from Storm in
Sept '99 - welll - click on my name - and see a darn good reason why you
don't want to fall asleep on stalk in the amazons....
Ken :)
Ken
Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
I got the Shorty AK upper too. I found some good S. African ball
ammo that does not flash at all. Even at night. LC has been good too. Gonna
order some more S. African 55gr ball, and IMI ball next week.
However, the PMC ball ammo I got is real "bright", and the flash
can be seen easily, even in bright sunlight. I would like to put some of
this stuff through a Vortex at night, and see how much flash is hidden.
Later,
Smokeless powder "Cannot" detonate under any circumstances...
Go here:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762r.html
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Thanks for bringing this up, I had been wondering about this ever
since it happened.
Two Shoes
1. All the stuff you did when young catches up to you.
2. Dont eat out of aluminum pans.
Give me a break I have burned out many a bbl with one single scope.
Scopes will out last any rifle known to man kind unless you are paying
less than 50.00 for the scope. I have an Ultra over 15 years old and it
still keeps on going 50's 338 lapua you name it.
Undude
Guru Bill and Squirrelboy: That's my take on it, just use powder
that doesn't flash. I tried powder with the 55's as fast as AA2015BR, and
it works all right, but we're talking SHORT barrels like yours and mine
(only 1.6" longer). Since I've got my notes out ;-) 3100 fps, only 100
fps slower than the best I could get with other powders, as slow as Varget.
But with a burn rate that quick, if 2015 has any flash, I sure can't tell
it. Or that could be a function of the Phantom that's on there now.
BMG Mike: I've thought about a can extensively, but there's two major
downsides to it. First off is the weight/bulk issue on the muzzle. Second
off, it would necessitate having to deal with people I find significantly
distasteful. But I am thinking about such significantly, even with having
to deal with "lesser species" for it, JUST ONCE. How do they do with long
strings of fire, like 500 rounds? Any overheating problems?
Patron 'Lito: I agree with the statement on the RCBS case trimmers,
but I'd ditto that on the Forster also. I had one up until VERY recently,
sold it to a fellow on the Patriots USA site (houah!). If I were going
to do the crankey thing, it'd be with a Wilson, but the dough from all
this sales stuff is going towards that Gracey. If another "emergency" doesn't
crop up, I'll have it not too long.
I think you're phantom is doing it's job just like it's supposed
to, those things are said to be able to knock down anywhere from 90-95+%
of the flash on most firearms.
I don't get to do much night shooting but the 2015BR just happened
to be the first powder I tried while I was out testing my 500A and my Reflex
sight after hours.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Everybody, I'm not trying to sound like a 220 pound weakling here.
My problem is that I latch onto the shells with such a death grip that
if the cases were made of a material any softer or more brittle I'd crush
the darned things(sarcasm there fellas). Big giant hands rolling little
itty bitty cases really compounds the problem I think. Rolling the cases
back and forth in my hands doesn't effect my skin or chew it up but the
pressure does fun things like pinches a nerve ending or makes me red fingered
for a few hours. It doesn't help that I'm having to not only debur the
case mouth but also that I am relieving the primer pocket crimp, my RCBS
primer pocket swager went belly up after about 1500 rounds and it's been
all hand turning since then. Next up is a Dillion primer pocket swager,
that's for certain. Just trying to figure out what other goodies to look
into as well, a new trimmer might very well accompany the Dillon swager.
When I load equal or even greater amounts of 308Win ammo I experience
none of the above problems, bigger cases are easier on my hands and the
trimmer/deburring goes easier as well for some reason.
I know I could always ditch the surplus or mil-type stuff but I just
can't bring myself to give away brass, unless it's that Federal crap(in
gas guns it's crap atleast). I'm a brass pack rat, I'm fairly certain that
it's not the first time somebody around these parts has admitted to that
or been accused of it.
Thanks for all of the suggestions guys,
peteR, do you consider "incense" to be lit patches soaked with Hoppes
no9? I'm thinking that a mix of CLP incense and Hoppes no9 incense might
get the desired effect, something to really make my nostrils flare!
BMG Mike,
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Boomhauer,
The M4-96D is built of a high-temp alloy, but I imagine it would
fail given a sufficiently long burst. I sort of believe that the gas tube
on your M16 would fail first, though. I've put three mags through mine
in pretty quick succession, given it a few minutes rest and dumped 2 or
three more. It's still working fine. You might check with Doc Dater on
the burst survival specs on his products. He's as straight-dealing a guy
as you can find, IMO.
I share your aversion to working with distasteful people. I think
that we are all on "the list", though no matter how plebian our taste in
firearms. Between the yellow sheets and the mailing lists that I seem to
get on, and participation in lists like this, the fact that the Feds have
a form 4 on me seems to be of little consequence. Maybe it moves me to
the top of the list. I don't know. Nor too much care.
Mike
Meant to say middle of third magazine full auto, changed as fast
as they could.
Mike
Swaging is an ugly task, BTDT! Now I only use commercial brass and
avoid the problem. The Dillon will take care of the problem, just keep
the fingers out of the ram..........
Chainsaw,
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Ya - can you see one of those anacondas coughing up a ghillie fur
ball after a good sniper team lunch :)
Ken
"Pheronal state"? Will penicilin cure that?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
How much extra weight does the can add to the M/AR? I have a 20"
barrel and would think the CofG would be adversly affected.
I can see the utility in a CQB sit but how about longer range accuracy?
Since dealing with the "distasteful" ones (as Boomhauer says) is
part of the deal, is the can the only thing they are interested in or are
you required to detail the weapon(s) it will go on also?
Moe
Ghillie furballs - Snipers, They're not just for breakfast anymore!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Been up in the shop loading Mouse Gun ammo. One load for my bolt
gun and the other to try in my CQB gun. I want to see what the M-4 will
do with 69 grain Sierra's and the fast twist barrel. Will report back provided
I can get to the range, on the 'morrow.
Supressed .223 and others... Phil Daters M4-96D is state of the art.
Have used a number of them and all perform well. NOTE: they must have proper
mounts or threads. Have Gemtech do the work!
All my subguns have supressors. I love them. The MP-5 uses Gemtech's
Raptor. What a honey. Adds 10 ounces or so and does not effect the balance
of the weapon the way the SD version does. Nor does it bleed energy effectively
making the 9mm a .380 ACP(if you're lucky).
My next acquisition is going to be a can for one of my .308's. Undoubtedly
a GemTech product.
If your looking for subsonic 9MM, .223, and .308 try Engel Ballistic
Research. NONE better.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Marius,
AR10 Steve
STEVE <skylar.burris@gte.net>
I'm taking Jim Owen's High Power class, and he gave us this numeric
sequence: 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6. As he tells it, leave off the first
'2', as that gets you from zero to 100 yards. The remaining numbers are
come-ups between 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000
yards.
(To go from 100 to 200, come up 2. To go from 200 to 300, come up
another 3. To go from 300 to 400, come up another 3. And so on and so forth
through the numeric sequence.)
Sounds too simple, I thought. Way too simple. So, I checked the 30-06
BDC dial on my LR-M3, and dang it all if his numbers don't match that BDC
dial, or no more than +/- 0.5 MOA at any given range.
Sorry if y'all knew this. I thought it was a pretty elegant way of
remembering.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Ref: IMI Match Brass
I was just reading about IMI Match brass and the high pressure signs
etc. I've had exactly the same experience. 168 BTHP w/42.1 grains of IMR4895
gives 2,600 fps. Any more and things get sticky. I've also seen the tell-tale
ring developing. The sad part is I've got 500 cases will all the work done
to include neck turning. Oh well live and learn. I'll shoot these up and
move on to Federal brass.
FWIW, I've never had any luck feeding truncated cone .45 bullets
in any of my government models. I stick to the 230 FMJRN. Good enough for
government work.
I'm going back to bed now.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Another ghillie for sale on EBAY.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1131132566
I had recently bought a Butler Creek Carbon Fiber Barrel for my 10/22
to test. Here is what I have found out from it. The Carbon fiber barrel
coupled with a hogue ruber overmolded stock is too light for long range
22 shooting (50-100 yards) The entire packaged only weighed about 3.5 lbs.
The rifle seemed to have a good ballance, there was more weight in the
but of the stock then there was tward the barrel so that weight was canceled
out by putting the rifle to my shoulder.
take care
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
Mark A. Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
I have the same trouble spelling, and make matters worse the words
I can spell usually get typed wrong. When ever you get the info on those
77's let me know. My Stealth left for winchester last Friday to get the
right twist barrel put on it. Winchester has been very straight up and
professional as it looks like I got a .22-250 blank that got tossed in
the .223 finish pile. So end of problem I hope.
Undude -
Slings and mittens arrived Friday. AWWWWWSOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and
the extra large cuff size is a good fit.
Ken - Some times when I post, after entering the password with the
initial required information the post will not go through as if the pass
word were lost. Has anyone else had this happen? Probably just me but it
has happened twice.
Later
Titan
Gents,
Had a post on another private E-mail list that indicated the formula
used in the Mil-Dot Master is incorrect and solves the problem of sloping
shots/come-ups incorrectly. Erring on the low side and getting progressively
worse as range increases. Author indicates he can prove it, mathematically.
According to Mike Brown, the author, it uses (cos theta)*true range
in the formula.
Mike B. indicated the correct formula should be come ups for the
true range*(cos theta).
Personally, the Mil-Dot master works for me well enough. Anyone else
out there have a comment?
Can any of us shoot the difference? I'm all ears as he indicated
the difference could be several MOA at long range.
Mike Brown did say that when his paper was done we'd get a copy to
review. I can hardly wait...
Just stirring the pot on a Sunday eve...
Semper Fi,
Wes
P.S. No range time today. Trip to town for parts and spent most of
the day under the hood of my Chevy truck...just a minor oops on my part
that I had to correct.
Thanks
Mike B. indicated the correct formula should be come ups for the
true range*(cos theta)."
So, rather than being A*B it is B*A?
You're pulling my leg, right?
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
It's time to reorganize the family gun rack..This happens several
time s a year as the seasons change. Deer rifles make way for upland guns
in December..Now the turkey guns come out, as do the varmint guns for their
annual zero checks in preparation for dogs and chucks. The only constants
around the place are defensive pieces and my wifes garden gun[an old crackshot
.22] over the kitchen door..This shuffling of stuff gives one the incentive
to go through the safes and PM everything at least a couple of times a
year..
outa here
Two Shoes
I also have had trouble posting..Sometimes it goes through and sometimes
not...
outa here again
Don't be too hard on Mike B., He probably went to Public school and
a Public University. No offense to anyone, but this is the goofy sort of
un-math being taught now days. Lets hope no one asks him to mathematically
model a spin drift calculation.( and before the incoming gets here, I can't
do it either).
Wes - the Mildot master is close enough for me and I have used it
up to 50 Deg inclination. I would say it is within a MOA of accuracy depending
on your round, and can be fine tuned with a little work. Heck, a 30 deg
temp change coupled with a Humiditychange and a little wind really screws
up the mix. That is why data based on testing is soooooo important.
I am going to bed.
good night
Titan
Mike L - Those figures are in FM 23-8 and TC 23-14. They are called
“normal come ups” and work for only specific loads. They will not work
on 300WM, or .338 Lapua or Mag, 7mm Mag or any other flat shooter or grenade
launcher. They are for the 173/175 world at about 2600 to 2700. It is our
count system and it works fairly well. The truth is that the real come
up have .5 and .25 moa thrown in but what’s 3 to 5 inches among friends
at those ranges?
Well have a test tomorrow with my students, their first in the course.
I lucked out and got four shooters. Makes my life easier.
T - Got your e mail and am working up some ideas for you to consider.
Do not know your range capabilities but so some may not work.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
CDC wrote:
So, rather than being A*B it is B*A?
You're pulling my leg, right?
CDC'
Read it again. Say a slope shot at 1000 yards with a slope such that
cos theta of 0.8. I'll guarandamtee you that
0.8*(comeups for 1000) is not equal to the comeups for (1000*0.8)
yards. Drop is a function of the square (or higher power) of the range.
Try it for any bullet you like. The comeups for 800 yards will be
lower than the correct comeup. Result - 6 oclock miss.
BMG Mike - aka Mike Brown
I would respectfully disagree with the term "wrong" (don't mean to
sound like Bill Clinton!) as applied to the Mildot Master's method of calculating
corrections for angle shooting.
The angle correction method used in this device is an approximation
ONLY, as stated in the Owner's Manual. The "Cosine Method" can never be
exact, and errors will increase as range and/or angle become greater.
This device is intended to be used with all calibers, so correcting
for come-ups for an individual caliber is not feasible. Instead, the Cosine
method was added to the Range scale in order to provide a close approximation.
From a practical standpoint, very few situations will arise that call for
a combination of extreme angle (greater than 30 degrees) and extreme range
(past 500 yards).
I am adding (below) the section from the Owner's Manual that serves
as an introduction to this subject. All, please feel free to contact me
off-line if you have any comments or questions. I would be particularly
interested in hearing form the gentlemen who emailed Wes, so that we can
discuss this.
Sorry to burn the bandwidth, but for those of you who haven't read
the manual, here goes:
"Range calculations (whether performed by a mildot reticle, a laser
rangefinder or other means) are a measure of the line-of-sight distance
to the target. Bullet drop figures are always expressed in terms of deviation
from a horizontal trajectory."
"It is important to remember that bullet drop figures are not accurate
if the shot is uphill or downhill. The effect of up or down slope increases
with the angle of deviation from the horizontal and with increasing range."
"The range determination on such shots must be adjusted to enable
a hit."
"If shooting uphill or downhill (for example, when hunting in mountainous
terrain), the shooter must estimate the angle by which the shot deviates
from horizontal, and reduce the estimated range accordingly. This "actual
horizontal range" will determine the bullet drop."
"Please note that it does not matter if you are shooting uphill or
downhill, the effect on bullet drop is the same. In either case, the actual
horizontal range will be less than the estimated (line-of-sight) range,
which means that the amount of bullet drop will also be less."
"It is imperative that the shooter realize that the two methods presented
here are approximations only."
"While the Mildot Master is extremely accurate in calculating range
to target and resultant MOA/Mil corrections (given an accurate target size
estimation), these are strictly geometric functions based on line of sight
measurements."
"The calculations necessary to exactly correct for shooting at angles
other than horizontal are complex and time consuming."
"External factors as diverse as altitude, air temperature, and relative
humidity can all affect the results of these approximations. This is because,
in each of the two methods, the corrected bullet drop figure is based on
a reduced "actual horizontal range" to account for the lessening of gravitational
effect on the bullet's trajectory as the firing angle deviates further
from the horizontal. The bullet's path through the air, however, is still
at the (longer) "line-of-sight" distance, subjecting the bullet to slight
additional air resistance not accounted for in these two approximation
methods. Due to the effects of the above-mentioned factors on air density,
it is impossible to simplify the calculations and incorporate them into
these two approximation methods."
"If the shooter elects to use the Mildot Master for calculating corrections
for uphill/downhill shots, it must be with the realization that the results
are approximations. While close enough for hunting and target-shooting
situations, the margin of error increases with range and angle and precludes
the use of these methods in critical situations."
Hopes this clarifies things a bit.
Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Bruce N. Robinson writes, among other things.
"The calculations necessary to exactly correct for shooting at angles
other than horizontal are complex and time consuming."
Actually, the correction for drop on a slope shot is deceptively
simple. If you know the elevation to put on the sights for a level shot
at that range, then cos theta times that elevation puts the slope shot
on target. Independent of caliber, bullet BC, or MV.
Your Mil-Dot slide rule does the Cosine multiplication math on range
- it is not too great a leap to believe that the math can be done on the
elevation.
I acknowledge that "wrong" may be harsh term for a method which produces
approximately correct results. But it is demonstrably less accurate than
the correction stated above. It may make the difference between a hit and
a "Maxwell Smart" shot at long range/steep slope.
I'll offer to trade you a copy of my paper for a Mil-Dot Master (when
I finish writing it - in a day or two). ;-)
Is there any way to put a .pdf document on the site here?
Regards
Mike
Mike
Two Shoes
Bruce writes "External factors as diverse as altitude, air temperature,
and relative humidity can all affect the results of these approximations.
This is because, in each of the two methods, the corrected bullet drop
figure is based on a reduced "actual horizontal range" to account for the
lessening of gravitational effect on the bullet's trajectory as the firing
angle deviates further from the horizontal. The bullet's path through the
air, however, is still at the (longer) "line-of-sight" distance, subjecting
the bullet to slight additional air resistance not accounted for in these
two approximation methods. Due to the effects of the above-mentioned factors
on air density, it is impossible to simplify the calculations and
I'm of the opinion that the air density factors (altitude, temperature,
and to a much lesser extent, humidity) may not be too complex to put on
a slide rule. Pilots have been using a slide rule calculation of density
altitude for many years. Relating density altitude to drop may not be quite
so straightforward, since it tends to be caliber-specific.
Michaelis (HTI) includes barometric and temperature correction coefficients
in his tables. I'm at odds with the way he applies them, but they can be
used to correct (at least approximately) for density effects on drop. The
coefficients are raised to an exponent (based on altitude, or temp difference
from 59F) and used to adjust the drop. These exponential calculations can
easily be incorporated into a slide-rule type calculator.
Art Pejsa (Modern Practical Ballistics) has derived some formulas
that effectively calculate an altered BC based on the density factors,
and formulas that relatively straight-forwardly calculate drop based on
MV and (altered) BC. Yes, I'm talking about more calculation at the firing
point than is being done presently. They are probably not a 1-step operation
on a slide rule.
In any case, the correct procedure is to apply the density corrections
to the level shot drop data before applying the cosine theta correction.
Regards
Mike
I'm afraid it's not as easy to directly apply a cosine multiplier
to elevation adjustments on this device. It would necessitate the addition
of a separate sliding member and thereby compromise its simplicity.
You can, however, perform this calculation, if you so desire, with
the device in its current incarnation.
Let's say your calculated elevation correction is 12 MOA, and you
are shooting at an angle of 30 degrees. Set the Range to 1200 (12 x 100)
and read 1025 next to 30 degrees. Your corrected elevation is then 10.25
MOA.
I have doubts that this method will work for all situations, however.
As an extreme example, let's look at a 90 degree shot (straight up). If
your rifle is sighted in at 300 yds.your bullet path will be high for all
shots between about 25 yds. and 300 on a horizontal shot. If you now apply
cos theta (cosine of 90 degrees is zero) X elevation, your correction is
zero MOA, which means a miss, because the bullet path is crossing the line-of-sight
in order to be on target for that 300 yd. horizontal shot.
The calculations ARE complex, according to Louis Schwiebert, who
produces the excellent Ballisticards. Lou works closely with contacts at
Sierra, and he and I talk often and collaborate on some projects.
I would be very interested in reading your paper. If you would like
to try my device out, there is a "virtual" version on my website, courtesy
of Karin Christensen.
Bottom line is that correcting for angle shooting is an approximation,
especially with a slide rule. If I could make this thing work 100% for
all calibers under all conditions for all angles, I'd be a very wealthy
man.
The Range and MOA/Mil calculations are exact. Ask the guys at Storm
Mountain competitions (or at Leupold Technical Service).
Angle correction is not. Kinda like reading wind!
Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Rick wrote "
Rick, I'm trying to take some of the SWAG out of SWAGland. What is
left out of the "cosine range" approximation is the fact that this approximation
is a fortuitous coincidence that has taken on a life of its own. The approximation
can be shown to be *systematically LOW* at all ranges and all elevations
except 0. Low enough to make a practical difference? Not at short range/low
slope. Yes, the Mil-Dot Master is accurate enough for those conditions.
The problem is that some authors and teachers have taken the method outside
of that envelope.
If you are going to use an approximation, it behooves you to know
the envelope inside which it holds. I'm beginning to believe that lots
of people don't know it's an approximation. RTFM would be good advice to
those people, I guess. Or maybe not.
The real problem isn't as complex as you think. Its solution can
be demonstrated with a simple graph and elementary trigonometry. The figures
in Plaster's book come close to revealing the answer, but he doesn't bother
to analyze them. Pejsa does this analysis, taking a slightly different
tack than I have, but I think my results are compatible with Pejsa's.
Mike
BMG Mike,
We been through this before, Both Bruce and Daves angle measurement
goodies WORK as designed! They aren't designed for calculating nuclear
payloads, or splitting genes for examination.
and I HATE (100pt FONT) Chalkboard games on the Roster!!!
Its a bad (No)hair, and hayfever day, here in By-Gawd - ANY QUESTIONS?????
God help you if 'Lito is having one too!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
There's a Mosquito buzzing in your position... you missed a very
important comment that Rick made (in his typical, understated style)...
If you took a shot at a steep angle where the true distance was 1200yds,
and the horizontal component was 600yds (60 degrees I think, but no coffee
yet)...
Hence, for really accurate longrange, steep angle stuff, you have
to do... cos*BC first, then run new come-ups, and then run cos*Ncome-ups.
Art Pejsa was hot in ballistics... about 20-15 years ago. There's
much better stuff around now.
And at these long distances, the biggest enemy is... you got it...
W-I-N-D.
Titan...
If you spell badly, and type badly, stastically, you will have days
that are fine...
No worries mate!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
A while ago Andy's Tasco sniper scope went bad, so I got him a M3LR
and sent the Tasco in for service. It was returned to me without explaination.
I assumed it was repaired. Yesterday we went to the range to test it out.
It still won't track or repeat. It is a POS! I'm sorry I ever wasted the
money. This morning I pulled the Badger rings off and threw it in the trash.
If you've got a good one, good for you, but be warned, this was a "good
one" once.
Ref: Chucks
Yesterday at Andy's grandparent's place Andy looked out the window
and then went for his rifle. Down back, just this side of the hedgrow was
a woodchuck. That's one. The season has begun.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Bruce, I have perhaps misspoken. Maybe comeups isn't the right term.
The cosine correction applies to the total elevation, not the incremental
elevation from a close range zero. The equation is correct (other than
height of sight) at all angles when it is applied to the total elevation.
Boomhauer, I've no doubt that within the envelope that the MM master
is appropriate, that you can't tell the difference between it and my correction.
Do you know what that envelope is? Do you know what to put on your sights
when you are outside that envelope? How many MOG do you take off? Or do
you put them on? (That's Minutes of Guess). I'll not deny the usefulness
of a spotter - but a first-shot hit is always better than an observed correction
on the second shot.
peteR, I have read Hot Tips and Cold Shots. Gooch's article is the
only one I find there. It merely advocates the MM correction method. I
have not been all the way through the archive. I'm not talking about nuclear
payloads - I'm talking about payloads in the 200 grain ballpark, at ranges
beyond 600, where your elevation gets way above 20 MOA, and where it doesn't
take much of a slope for the MM to give you a 5% or more error in elevation.
MOAs start to get pretty big out there. How much el error are you willing
to accept before you call it a miss? Just where does your MM fall apart?
And how? If precision shooting is your goal, how many SWAGs are you willing
to accept? I'd have thought that chalkboard exercises on some topics would
be of interest to this audience. If not, perhaps this is the wrong forum
for this discussion.
Titan - I am a product of public education, and without benefit of
College diploma. Fortunately, I'm intelligent enough for these deficiencies
to be little more than potholes in the highway of life. Fortunately for
many of us, public education has not always been in the sorry state that
it is in today!
Regards, all. Maybe I can get this paper out today or tomorrow, for
your bedtime reading.
I saw a lot a few days back about the 155 "Palma" bullets. I went
up to the mountain yesterday and tried some of the Lapua Scenar 155 (reportedly
.508 B.C.), the load I used was clocking 2900 fps. The software predicted
11.8 MOA up for 675 yards and 13.8 for 725 yards, I initially figured this
was a little over optimistic but after firing these bullets in the actual
test I was very impressed. The 155 Lapua Scenar appears to fly much flatter
on the trajectory that the 175 Sierra I was comparing (175 Sierra @ 2650fps).
(Try running the ballisics yourself for a check)
It was pretty windy, gusts to 18 or 20 mph with sustained in the
10 mph range, the Lapua showed 1 to 2 MOA less wind over the 175 also.
The B.C. on the Sierra 175 and the Lapua 155 are very close and the
little 155 starts out 250 fps faster.
I'm still going to shoot them over the chrony at 100 yards for a
B. C. calculation of my own but initially it appears the .508 reported
is in the ball park.
Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Deja Vu all over again, huh Pete?
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
In an attempt to understand how the B.C. could be equal to higher
on the Lapua 155 I compared some of the bullets characteristics.
The bearing surfaces were roughly equal but the Lapua appeared to
be longer than the Sierra
The Lapua 155s were consistent in length while the Sierra 175s varied
by about .015, the Lapua 155 SCENAR was still .035 LONGER than the longest
Sierra 175 MK.
Thank you for the article from American Gunsmith. Much appreciated!
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
I guess what I wanted to say is that I do a lot of long range shooting
whenever I can and I have found that, "The longer the range the less the
angle". I guess unless your shooting from on top of a ledge down into a
valley you really don't have that much of an angle to worry about do you??
If I am in a tower shooting a 300yds then the angle is steep but
if I am in the same tower and shooting at 800yds the angles is much less
isn't it??? or am I missing something??
I also find that under field conditions I won't know the exact angle
anyway and I use the SWAG method for that along with my wind call and my
dials for that days conditions. I have found long range shooting is not
and exact science by any means. We can both have identical guns and loads,
put in the same data and probably will hit in a differnt spot, shooting
at the same target. Not because we guessed or figured wrong but because
of "Outside" factors that we can't control and change constantly.
Bruce never said his Mil Dot Master was perfect but I will. I think
its the perfect tool for me and a lot of other guys who are a hell of lot
better at this than I am. No, its not exact but it gets me to where I need
to be and thats good enough for me. By the way I use it for 308s, 260s
and 6.5x284s and it works for them all so what more can I ask???
This is not ment as a flame in anyway Mike, nor is it ment to discourage
you. I am just stating that sometimes we get to into things like, spin
drift, that have very little effect on the overall picture compared to
other things like wind and range estimation. Its like asking someone what
time it is and they tell you how to build a watch.(HA) Just my opinion
and you know what they say about those!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
'Lito - do i still qualify for the Statistical correct days if i
never studied statistics?
Out,
Titan
Titan
"'Lito - do I still qualify for the Statistical correct days if I
never studied statistics?"
Onle if youe spewl gud lik I are do ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I think I see now what you are talking about. Applying the cosine
to elevation changes to a scope that is aligned exactly with the bore (a
"zero-yard" zero, so to speak) would eliminate the scenario I spoke of
in my previous post.
I have not run any numbers yet, and have to go into the city for
a couple of meetings, but this evening I will sit down and give it a go.
I think that the gist of your argument could be described as follows:
Two components affect drop: gravity (constant over a horizontal path)
and air resistance (affected by BC and velocity, which decreases over distance).
An elevation correction takes into account both factors, so if you
dial up 25 MOA for 800 yards, you have taken into account both gravity
and the air resistance for that particular cartridge.
Are you saying that applying the cosine to the 25 MOA accounts for
the decreased effect of gravity and leaves the effect of air resistance
unchanged? Whereas applying the cosine to the range does not take into
account the difference between line-of-sight range and resultant differences
in air resistance?
If so, I think you have something there. I am even more interested
in reading your paper.
I am not sure how much you and I will agree on the practical impact
(no pun intended) of the differences between the two mehods, but we won't
know until we discuss it, will we?
Don't get the impression that this forum is resistant to discussion.
A lot of us (myself included) react to new ideas (especially math-related)
like Dracula to sunlight. When I first approached Gooch with the Mildot
Master, his reaction was, "Oh, hell, another crackpot idea".
As to education: I was in charge of Electrical and Electronic Systems
in the Quality and Product Engineering Department of an automotive manufacturer
for over seven years. I have no Engineering degree. I have no college degree
at all. What I did have was knowledge of the systems gained from 10 years
of working on them. I managed just fine, and was amazed at how many PhD's
couldn't find their asses with both hands.
Get that paper done and let's all have a look.
Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Mike BMG, you might want to step out of it and wipe your boot.LOL
Seriously the Mildot Master has worked for me and many others for
years now. You are much more likely to make an angle estimation or target
size error than the device being off. Unless you factor in spin drift and
the ambient erection of the squid. Much to do about nothing. But you obviously
have a head about your shoulders so stick around.
Undude back to slings.
Now of course this is all in theory and may not work out that way
in the real world but I do have some 155s and if I get a break in the weather
I will go out and try them at 1000yds. I don't have any 175s but I shoot
my 168s right at 2800fps and I will compare these two.
I have some 175VLD Bergers but I don't know how they would compare
to the 175MKs. I may try them too just to see what they do in my 1-12 twist.
Then compare them to the other two.
I've sent draft copies of my paper to those engaged beforehand, and
to Marius. Maybe it will be better written than some of my posts here.
If I've missed anyone who cares, contact me off-Roster if you really must
have a draft copy. Maybe it will find a place here to become public.
Bruce Robinson wrote:
"Two components affect drop: gravity (constant over a horizontal
path) and air resistance (affected by BC and velocity, which decreases
over distance).
Let me correct a misconception here - and this may be the biggest
reason for some of the confusion. Drop depends on time, and gravity. Period.
Gravity always works downward, but can be resolved into orthogonal components
at any convenient angle. That means "works as though two right-angle forces"
combine to produce "Down".
The BC, MV, density, etc directly influence the time of flight to
the target. But no matter what angle that target is at, if the time of
flight is the same, the drop is the same. What is different is the direction
that drop has with respect to the line of sight.
There's an "if" in the above paragraph that does not strictly hold,
but for practical purposes it does. That's the constant time of flight
to a target at range R. The time of flight is altered by the component
of drop (gravity) that can be resolved in the line of sight. This component
either speeds up or retards the projectile's progress to the target. For
TOF in the 1 second range, we are talking about at most 32fps cumulative
velocity, 16 fps average, times the sine of the el. angle. That will change
the TOF by at most a few milliseconds. A few milliseconds more or less
in a second will not change the drop by much - a few tenths of a percent
at most.
"Are you saying that applying the cosine to the 25 MOA accounts for
the decreased effect of gravity and leaves the effect
Well, sort of. Since the air resistance doesn't influence the drop,
its effect is unchanged ;-) If the time is the same, the drop is the same,
and the time will be the same within a very small percentage less than
1% difference in a 1-second TOF.
The cosine-range method finds the drop at approximately
TOF proportional to (Cos^2 X * R^2), rather than the drop at TOF
proportional to (R^2) * cos X
My paper gives a better derivation, and shows the cosine-proportional
discrepancy between the two methods - hopefully clearly.
- - - - - -
Titan - I share your distaste for the state of public education in
this country. No (lasting) offense taken! As long as I have been around
shooters - and that's a lot of years now - I have learned that you can't
be thin-skinned and hang with this bunch.
As to A*B not equal to B*A - that was poor parenthesizing - either
on my part, or on Wes's. When I re reread Wes's post (I didn't stutter)
I saw the confused statement. It may have been confused in my posts on
the other forum - I'll re-read those, also.
Later
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
May I borrow your carpet for a few minutes? ;-)
Seriously, the errors you speak of can be minimized by training and/or
better equipment. The error that I'm addressing is systematic. No amount
of training or equipment can eliminate the error introduced by wrong math.
Math that is flawed in concept, not wrong in execution. Math that degrades
with range and slope, just at the point where you need all the precision
you can get.
Would you like to be able to do headshots at 1k? I'm not offering
that, but I would observe that the only way that will happen will be to
eliminate every source of error possible till those errors that remain
are smaller than a head at 1k. I offer up one source of error for elimination.
I'm quite sure that the MilDot Master slope doper is a good and valuable
tool. Under certain conditions. If you are always going to be shooting
where these conditions hold, then you really don't need the improvement
offered by my method, and I can stop wasting your time.
Do you know what those conditions are? I think I do, and how to compensate
for them. If you already shoot as good as you will ever need to, then I'll
quit bugging you and go find someone else's carpet.
If you do need that improvement, you can still use your MilDot Master
to apply conceptually correct math to the situation. You'll just have to
use it a bit differently.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Do any of you have exact Mil Reticle measurements that give more
detail than the FM´s. There has to be a way to Mil smaller stuff
than 10 Mil intervals. What size are the hash marks, etc. ?
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
Wind + spindrift + the corolis effect + angle of dangle + not getting
to range enough + factory rifle + factory ammo + a full moon = having to
take a "swag" anyway, which I am getting really used to!
Where is that smart boolit I lost? Bolt out!
Got the draft and will look it over tonight, PROMISE. Please Send
a copy to Dan (CDC)& 'Lito too. Theys number crunchers to the max.
Dan, :-)
"Doc", WOW!
"T"
Sir Wes, Little brown envelope arrived today LOOKS GOOD! More later.
Chao! [PS- Hayfever down, hair up from the AM :-)]
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
You also left out the anti-gravity effects due to the high rotational
speed of a charged object.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
The other option is to shoot down into one of the 360 degree ranges.
This would place the shooter and observers less than 100 yards from the
bottle. I'm concerned that fragments from the cylinder may still pose a
hazard at that range. Anyone with experiance in this area?
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Compressed gas cyllinders are explosions looking for a place to happen.
They have been known to fly for long distances if the neck fails, taking
out brick walls etc in the process. Check out the scuba diving safety publications
for history of such events.
I think I'd try to rig a collar around the neck with 3 chain/cable
anchors going down to something well-attached to earth. That would minimize
the chance of the tank becoming an unguided missile.
Mike
I've never tried the Sierra 155 Palma bullets so I have no load info
on that bullet. The B.C. on the 155 Sierra is stated as .450 in the Sierra
manual, the 175 Sierra is listed as .496 at 308 Win velocity. I never saw
a reason to switch to a lower B.C. bullet.
BUT the Lapua 155 really caught my eye with that .508 (no stated
velocity criteria) so I gave them a try. I tried VARGET but didn't get
good velocity before things got a little sticky. The test I shot over the
weekend was using FED 210M, new unfired LAPUA brass, Reloader 15 (max listed
load and a little extra for my fat chamber) and the Lapua 155 Scenar. I'm
going to try some additional powders when my next shipment of these 155s
arrive.
Sinclair International has them in stock, or at least they did this
morning.
Pat
Are you talking about the 155 Sierra or the Lapua?
Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
I got your paper and will give it a good read. But while we are at
it take a look at what angle would make a significant difference at real
world ranges and see where in the heck you would make that shot from. The
only items that seem to be a potential for angle shooting are sky scrappers
and that my friend can be solved by changing hides. You shoot to the top
floor from another top floor. You shoot to the 72nd floor from another
buildings 72nd floor. Take the elevator for the stalk. PPolice distances
tend to be less than 200 yards and it will take a huge angle to make a
difference. That difference is measured close enough with the MDM (MilDot
Master)
In the field the distance is greater but the angles tend have less
impact (30 degree at 50 yards is not much at 1000 yards, the amount of
degree will fall off at range). Now consider factors that you may not have
in the math is everything category. Wind up drafts and swirls are far more
common and they cause up lifts of the round. Mirage causes the target to
appear in a different place than it actually is. Amb. Temp has an everyday
effect on the bullets. Elevation effects the flight. Ammo temp will effect
performance. Hell I could name another two dozen or so.
The bottom line is I have used the Mildot Master in the field and
find it to work very well. How mucgh time have you logged with it?
Bruce Robinson had his clothes on when he came up with the MDM and
many have been able to use it very well ever since. The MDM is the best
damm ranging item on the market!
I think I will go measure the fall angle of my next turd and check
the BC.
Undude
Hey there, and good day to you sir.
I personally don't have any problems with your product, and there
aren't too many other's around here that do either, from what I understand.
When I first heard about it, it was here, being touted by one heck of a
lot of the regulars here. I do not have one yet, but my financial situation
is of no concern of yours. The point that I am making here, is that for
your product to be in use by the USMC, and the patrons here, is a statement
in itself, and defense is unnecessary.
Sorry, but the "shoulda, woulda, coulda theories," always follow
what someone else (you) already did.
Continue on,
Bill Harding,
Thank you for the article from the American Gunsmith. The vice that
I am building is almost finished, and I am incorporating some of "your"
ideas, as well as a few of my own. You will have to get the "brews" from
Bravo, but I will sure supply you with the "Jack Daniels". (I don't like
beer)... waiting for incoming on that one, eh.
I will contact you off the roster, regarding a few other issues.
Out.
Sean <nailer@mackbc.com>
There are things that are part of the science of external ballistics
that some find fascinating, and some find boring... and that's Ok.
I think it's important to have at least a cursory understanding,
if for no other reason, that you don't sound like a dummy, in mixed company
(the eggheads, ya' know;).
But, in reality, most of these effects are smaller that the major
variables that we have to deal with, like wind, and accurate range estimation...
and these are large enough, that the little guys gat lost in the mess.
When you settle in with your riffle, and see the wind blowin' in
two different directions... and hard... you realize that you are dealin
I have the mildot master... and it rocks. I can still hear those
Clanks ;)
But it's fun (when it's raining, like now, cats and dogs... did someone
say CATS ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Don't muck with the O2 cylinders! Bad ju ju! They can take out an
8" re-enforced concrete block wall and you have no idea where they will
head when they take off. Kinda like a balloon that you let the air out
of but about a million times more powerful. Wish I could think of the name
of the safety education movie that I saw years ago and I would give you
the poop on it.
Just assume that if there were 15 or 20 bad guys in front of it when
it went off, they would look like mushy, bloody, yucky bowling pins when
they finally hit dirt!
Hazmat and safety nut Bolt, out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
Lito - And now you see why I understate, to dam hard to state it
fully, I leave that up to you guys that can I only shoot. :-)
T - The height of the bars is 5 mils and half the height is of course
2.5 mils. E holds for the width of the bars on the vertical scale. That
is the best I can do for you man.
Bolt - Where in the hell is my SWAG anyway?
Bruce - You should of heard what I told Gooch when he mentioned your
little card to me! :-)
Lito - Did you say cats and dogs again?
OK Mike you have taken a mauling from a bunch of us for your idea
and you stayed with it. I have to respect that as many would have left
in a huff. Also understand that many of us do this as a living and have
done it for real. Is there a failure point with the standard base gravity
formulas, yes. Will I still ring his chime at 600 to 800 yep! Will I have
SWAGed it, YEP, NO ONE CAN READ WINDS TO PERFECTION. That in itself is
SWAG land like it or not. :-)
Hold hard guys and keep Mike honest, he may be the one that comes
up with the right way to do this crap after all!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Cory: I've seen a cylinder go before, it can be as advertised: an
unguided missile. Went through a steel welding table, cinderblock wall,
across a (luckily unpopulated) parkinglot and through a sheetmetal wall.
I've also seen them cut with det cord, it was "interesting".
Sean: I was in your shoes once, hated beer. Then I came to the amazing
discovery that I DID NOT hate beer, I hated CHEAP beer! When I graduated,
I swore that I'd had my last black label, pearl, schaefer, pabst, and the
ever popular generic, (white can with "BEER" in black block letters!).
To date, I've kept that promise. There's several thousands of different
brands and recipies out there commercially, which means you gotta TRY some.
Join one of those "around the world" beer clubs. Some are real sleepers
(Akira from Japan), some are NASTY (no insult intended here Marius) like
Mamba. But you'll find one that's prime. In my case, it was in a pub in
Edinburgh, Scotland.
Got my keg of Varget today, gotta go check the mail for the other
thing ;-)
Patron Mike: you got lucky last night. I found "the box". You'll
have something in the mail ASAP, but you might want to forward me your
address. Danged palmtop went dead a month or so ago, and I lost all kinds
of contact info for everyone. Ah well, less for the FBI to get.
LLoyd Mcpherson <lmcpher104@aol.com>
Don't mess w/ compressed tanks... it's asking for trouble, IMHO....
-L
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
You can find them on eBay sometimes, for around $40... they fit the
40mm AO objectives.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Pat:
It's way too wet on your side of the state.. It rained about 2" in
5 hours at Dad's, coupled with the snow melt, it was gooey. Shot bow this
weekend instead of rifle, can shoot bow inside.
PeteR:
I'm still trying to figure out the average 'breeze' calculations
in South Dakota. If it would just blow one way at a time, it might not
be so bad. Some days, I just turn the whole scope perpendicular to the
barrel, and still 1/2 click to the left.
'lito:
What's your take on boattail vs flat base bullets? Is the drag rate
reduced enough to make up for the loss of surface contact? I heard that
Nosler Partitions, having a lead core and somewhat of a boat tail, dimple
at the exposed lead when fired which creates a better seal and if used
with bullet weights and lengths with higher BC's, would be premium longer
range bullets.
.260 Rem:
I am starting to think the 6.5 mm bullet is too small a bore for
the .308 case. It is a great medium round,I just don't think this round
will meet the potential it should be reaching, I will admit that we have
not chambered many 260's in the past 2 years, but the 140's in 7-08's are
continually performing exceptionally better than the 6.5's. Maybe I've
got to see it downrange. I would take a 6mm Remington over the .243(6-08)
for the same reason. No flame 260 dudes!! just mining for answers!!
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
I've been reading through the archives, (which EVERYONE should do!)
and what I was thinking of was in there. The item, and archive reference
is:
From: jrf Sounds like a really nice product. I'd love to hear from anyone who
has practicle, in the field experience with the ARD. Thanks for any insight!
Wolfgang <duncan_wolfgang7@yahoo.com>
I forgot to edit, so negate:
'I would take a 6mm Remington over the .243(6-08) for the same reason'
it was a different train of thought
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Tenabraex Corp makes them I believe.
Last time I played that game was drilling a 9mm hole in the center
of a screw in metal cap on a Taaaaa, Taaaaas, TS-24x fixed for 10M airgun.
Thats targeting a 1mm x-ring at 24X from standing shooting guyz.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
I know this is off the subject of what this website is designed for,
but it is extremely important none the less.
The following website was forwarded to me by a shooting buddy in
reference to the EP-3 crew being held in China. The site is for a petition
in support of Rep. Tom Tancredo & Rep. Duncan Hunter's bill to revoke
Permanent Normalized Trade Relations (PNTR)with China, HR 1467.
I urge each of you to "sign" this petition to show your support for
our forward deployed service members.
Sgt Armin H. Wahl
Semper Fi
http://www.grassfire.net/4.asp?pid=801692&rid=234934
Armin Wahl <sgtwahl@yahoo.com>
The seal issue is non existant. The size of the gas molecules are
so small, that whether you have a boat-tail, or a flat base, the bullet/barrel
junction lookes like the Grand Canon (times 1,000,000) to them, and the
same amount will get through (if any DOES get through).
The bullet had a big bulge in the middle of the body... the force
on the back of the bullet (about 5000 pounds... REAL POUNDS, not psi),
plus the inertia of the front of the body, causes the bullet body to swell,
and press the sides against the barrel, so I don't think the gas leaks
can be significant.
... and I would take the 6mm Rem over the .243 for the same reasons
as you would ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
BMGMike: I found some ways to increase my hit probability that really
do work. If you search the archives you'll notice that I have almost completely
stopped posting them. Sometimes I slip.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Wolfgang...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
For those interested...I watched Mike in Tx shoot some 168 Amax's
at 1000 and they are worth a serious try.
2 shoes...where ya at man?, the weather's tailor made right now.
Cheers, brand.
I know, don't rub it in.........I just put the finishing touches
on "The Beast".
Looks like a real muther.........17#'s of it!!!!!((:
I'm planning on coming this weekend, lock up the chiddren, and the
sheepies.
Mr. Mike, will have some tall tales to show, as well as tell....I'm
sure.
Take care, see you soon.
For those who hit me offline on the IMI, there's an article in this
months issue of "Precision Shooting".
Two Shoes
What if the sides of the barrel were smaller than the bullet diameter??
Such as our barrels. And radiused at the intersection betweeen land and
groove. The bullet would try to expand, but since the tight bore and smooth
rifling junction (no sharp corners), would seal at the bearing surface
of the body. Wouldn't more bearing surface be preferable?
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
I understand and respect that some of you guys are pros. That you
can reliably pop a target - first shot - at long range X is admirable.
Can you do it at X+100? X+50? If not, what are you doing to improve it?
In my opinion, one of the qualities that makes one a pro is a constant
quest for better performance. That's the way that progress happens.
I don't mean to belittle anyone on this board. I'm but an armchair
sniper, and I can't count thousands of rounds of long range shooting. I
get to shoot at long range about 3 times a year, and that only recently.
I'm too damn old to hump the boonies or crawl in the mud. I've got plastic
eyes that make iron sights almost impossible. On a good day, I'll get MOA
groups at 200 - my local range capability. Nothing to write home about.
On the other hand, there's not too much wrong with my brain. Yet! That's
my story and I'm stickin to it!
My intent with this idea is not to eliminate SWAG (impossible!) -
it is to reduce it. I have no idea how to reduce or eliminate wind reading
errors. I have some insight as to elimination or reduction of ranging errors,
and slope estimation errors.
I claim that the described method takes some of the SWAG out of elevation
correction. I think that air density corrections can be made less of a
swag, and integrated with the slope corrections. Believe it or not, bullets
do obey the laws of physics - whether or not you can predict it. If you
can predict something that the other guy can't it gives you an advantage,
and there's no such thing as an unfair advantage!
"Hold hard guys and keep Mike honest, he may be the one that comes
up with the right way to do this crap after all!"
Rick, Hold hard and keep everyone honest! Otherwise, I'm gonna feel
like you guys are picking on me. ;-) I'll help build a better mousetrap,
when I can, and I'll dam sure encourage others who are pushing limits in
areas beyond my skill or experience.
I don't think there's any magic cure for long range accuracy. There
are probably a bunch of yet to be discovered - or accepted - things that
will nibble away at the limits, until the limit of accuracy has been pushed
as far as possible. SWAG is always going to be there, but the more science
that can work into the picture, the more accurate the average shooters
are going to be. That's good, if they are on our side!
I ain't gonna run on this one. The topic may die from lack of interest
- but some will become enlightened through the discussions. That's progress!
Mike (the armchair sniper)
"As was pointed out it is hard to apply to MD master due to individuality
of ballistics."
Whoever told you this was blowin smoke up your butt! You can get
rectal cancer from hanging with people like that! Just what do you have
to do when you find the MM "corrected range"? You look up the ballistics
for your round and you crank them into the inches to minutes converter.
That's every bit as much "individual ballistics" as looking up the
drop for the true range.
MM is adaptable to the "new" method - I'll try to stop calling it
mine -with not much deviation from the present process.
Mike - the armchair sniper
I believe that I have sold one of my devices to Brand.
I also believe that I was the one who stated that the direct application
of the cosine correction to come-ups was impractical on the Mildot Master
due to its design being universal and non-caliber-specific (see my post
of 09 April).
I always try to keep these exchanges of ideas gentlemanly and productive.
I think that I have amply demonstrated my interest in your ideas and my
willingness to examine them with an open mind.
If your recent post regarding "blowing smoke up your butt" and "rectal
cancer" refers to the above-cited post, I'd appreciate it if you'd retract
those statements and return to a civil discussion of these matters.
For some reason, I cannot open the document that you sent me. I spoke
to Ken Hunter today and he suggested that you send it to him and he will
put it into a format compatible with the Duty Roster. All readers will
then be given the chance to evaluate and critique your work.
FWIW, I will try to get my findings (and opinions) on the practical
aspects of this subject into the Roster tomorrow.
Sincerely,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
It is interesting to note that the best 1,000 yard group I ever shot
with a .308 I was using Berger 155 VLDs.....
Where did this 175 grain thing come from anyway?
I can testify that 168 grain bullets don't cut it.
It looks like I've got lots more to learn about shooting up and down
hill.
out
It is Tenabraex (SP? Danger Will Robinson, more Expresso needed!).
Kevin(AndysDad),
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Would someone be kind enough to distill the argument on slope shooting
for me?
Can I measure the slant range and the angle then compensate using
my Mil-Dot Master and shoot the data?
My objective is hitting the target. The science involved is interesting
but the dialogs here can be a bit confusing.
Thanks,
Doc King thanks for the heads-up on the Dakota drop in trigger guard
and floorplate for the M700, I ordered one yesterday. It's half the price
of the Badger.
Question for the gunsmiths on a heavy recoil lug for the M700, does
it make any difference in a 308 ?
You have pricked my curiousity now about the Tenabraex. 1st, where
on the web can I find more information about this product. 2nd, what is
the cost of the 1" honeycomb version? 3rd, how bad is the one produced
by Lupita as oppose to Tenabraex 1" version?
Lito, as you know, I have a Lupita XIII LR M3 scope. You also know
that I can not put a sunshade on it. What would you recommend that is affordable
but satisfatory for this model? I have the Lupita honey comb model of the
Tenabraex. You are right about optic quality using the Lupita version.
peteR,
Where can I find more information on the f-stoppers, the polarizers,
and the ARD's?
To All,
Just wondering if it is ok to talk about tactics on the site without
inciting someone here? All the participant here are knowledgeable with
the tool of the trade but what about its implementation? If not this then
what about tactics? Just wondering...and please, I know if you want to
learn about this then use your leather personal carrier to take you to
a reputable school :)
Thanks All...
Darren...
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
So the bottom line is yes/no as in 6) and 7). If the 'old' way has
worked for you in the past and you're happy and don't WANT to change then
don't. If it's worked in the past yet you want to try to be better then
try 'new' method. As in my earlier posting, the accuracy improvement using
the 'new' method cuts the approximate solution error to half what the 'old'
method gives you. Does this matter? Your choice and your decision. I do
not have a MD master (sorry Bruce) so I cannot elaborate on it's utility
for using the 'new' method. I'm a mech Engr so this math is very basic...to
me. I also like to improve what I can so I prefer the 'new' method...and
why not since I spent a fair bit of time 'deriving' it, albeit I may not
have been the first guy in history to do so. Mike took som flak for trying
to HELP you guys, as I did last year when it first came up...before you
even tried to compare data there was some rumbling. So grab your flintlock
and head to the 1000 yard line... ;-) brand.
My intent and meaning is that the 'new' method gives better data
than the 'old' method when compared to the 'actual' solution
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
I loaded some 155s last night with 46.5 and 47grs of Varget and if
we get a break in the weather I will try to get out and shoot some at 1000yds
to see how they do. I also have some of the 155AMAXs but they are a lot
longer and am not sure where to start with them for OAL. If I load them
to touch the rifling they would never come close to fitting the mag. I
may just try some at mag length and see how they do also.
The book says 2900fps is max velocity and I can see the restricting
factor will be case cap. because at 47grs it is a compressed load. I talked
to my shooting buddy and he says you can get 3000fps out of them with a
good barrel.
Kevin..
Mike..
I could be wrong if the effect it is having now is more than I think.
But if it isn't, than the errors of wind and elevation and range estimation
cancel it out, wouldn't that be correct??? If not keep hammering away and
try to get it through my thick skull but you will have to do it with out
all this cosin stuff, maybe draw me some pictures(HA).
For Tenabraex, ARD's, and Killflash (all the same folks)... go here:
http://www.camouflage.com/
The "Good" (very good) Killflash is actually nearly 2" thick, and
very good... it's available for the MK4 Lupitas, and the big M22 Steiner
bins... two versions for the MK4, one for about $40, and one for about
$100 (will work with anti laser filters).
The bad one (very baaaad), for the M3-LR is sold under contract,
by Lupita, and is about 1/4" thick... but the holes are real small, and
that causes the optical problems... it's called "edge effect", or "Aperture
Defraction" in the optical world.
I have three of the Leupold ones collecting dust.
But the good news is (so I hear???), Lupita is going to offer to
change the front ring on the M3, and M1 "LR"s for a threaded one, and then
you can use lens shades, and maybe the military Killflash.
Call Lupita, and ask for Garth Kendig (tell him Paul Coburn sent
you ;), and ask him what the skinny is on that change.
PeteR...
JR...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I must agree though that the 7mm-08 is one hell of a round but is
not in the same league as the 260s at past 600yds. To make it a good long
range round you need to use the 168s and then your right back up to the
308s and the 260s still out perform them. Just my thoughts, now ducking
for cover!!!:):)
Tony..
Kevin..
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
All: If this is a better approximation, it would be foolish to dismiss
it as more useless book larnin', cuz book larnin' ain't never scalded no
hawgs.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
If the LApua 139 6.5mm Scenars are truely .612 BC then they deserve
a try in my 6.5-06. Any one else try these?
Guys... don't get too carried away with comparing Lapua, Berger,
Sierra, etc by published BC numbers.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Then you state that its 34MOA a long way from 31 MOA that it should
be and would be about 32" low or a near miss.
In my way of doing it I take the cosine of .9 times the "YARDAGE"
NOT the drop in inches at that yardage. Then I come up with 900yards and
I look at my data and it tells me to dial in 31.2 MOA for my shot on a
25.8 degree slope at 1000yds. That is just what you say I am suppose to
come up with. Now where am I wrong or don't I understand what your saying???
If so please give me some more examples of yours with diffent ranges and
the MOA you would come up with to shoot at that range. Thank you!!!!
According to the method I'm advocating, and advocated by BrandX before
me, the corrected drop for this shot is 355.5 inches, calculated as you
describe. That's 34 MOA, more or less.
The conventional method, as implemented on Mil-Dot Master, takes
the .9 times the range, enters the ballistic tables at that range, and
looks up (or interpolates) the 900 yard drop (about 294 inches; I don't
have that table in front of me as I write this), which comes out to something
in the area of 31.2 MOA (294/(1.047 * 9 hundred)) worth of drop.
" Then you state that its 34MOA a long way from 31 MOA that it should
be and would be about 32" low or a near miss."
This part is backwards. I didn't mean to imply that 31 MOA was the
correct elevation. It should be 34 MOA and you are only going to put 31
MOA on your rifle according to the MM method. My sentence structure there
needs some improving. Maybe in lots of other places, too!
Mike
I didn't shoot any 168s but I did shoot 175 in comparisons. When
I had the dope for the 155 Lapuas I loaded in several 175s and shot misses
at low and out the wind side. This was at over 600 and also over 700 yards.
Again, I'm convinced the real world BCs for these 155 bullets is
correct as compared to the real world BC listed for Sierra 175s. The 175s
track as predicted by the trajectory software I use and the 155 Lapua bullets
also tracked as predicted by this same software. If there were a problem
they shouldn't both track as predicted.
Run 2650 fps, BC .496, weight 175 against 2900 fps, BC .508 weight
155.
Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Shooting down at 30 degrees. (450 yards above target)
yes?
Bruce, I regret the crude remark that I made that you rightly took
offense to. Will do my best to avoid such in the future.
I'll explain my position in less-crude terms. The issue was the remark
that the corrections were ballistics-dependent. BrandX wrote "As was pointed
out it is hard to apply to MD master due to individuality of ballistics."
To which I made the vulgar reply.
Conventionally, the corrected range, calculated by MM, is used to
enter the individual ballistics table for the round/rifle being fired,
and a drop determined for that corrected range. That, sir, is as individual
as anything that is needed in the other method. The difference is the application
of the drop data.
What I'm proposing is that the drop lookup happen for the true range,
determined by target size and MOA size, as indicated by the index on the
range scale. That range is used to find the drop. That drop is entered
(as a range) under the range index. The corrected drop is now read off
of the appropriate angle index. True range is put back under the index,
and corrected drop used to enter the inches to MOA converter window. It
sounds cumbersome - but from lots of years of sliderule use, I can tell
you that with a little practice it will run almost as fast as the conventional
method.
Mike
I use a 24" and get 2735 with Berger 168's, haven't tried the 175's
yet, still have about 1200 rds of 168 left.
Berger states a .520 BC with their 168 VLD's so I used this in my
computer along with my 2735 fps chrono'd average for 100+ 5 shot groups.
Using your 2900 fps and .508 BC with a G7 Drag coefficient I made
a comparison to the 168's and found the 155's should have 32" less drop
at 1000 yds and 3 MOA less wind deflection in a 15mph full wind at 1000.
Using the .496 and 2650 for 175's it indicated about 53" less drop and
5.5 MOA less wind deflection in the same conditions. Were your results
similar? Just curious...
PS: No slope calc's were made.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Can you guys get together and post the paper, as it is, so everyone
can see it? Several of the (shooting) engineers here would like to see
it. I understand the idea, and would like to follow the discussion in more
detail. Besides, I'd like to check some numbers (we've got more 'puter
horsepower than NASA);-)
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Yes, thats the old way.
What these guys are saying is to multiply your (cos 30)(comups for900)
It sound like it may be a better approximation.
What I find interesting is that in the 3 years that I have used the
MM and before that, I figured with a calculator, I would usually hit what
I was aiming at or damn close and if I missed it was usually wind that
got me. Granted I am not shooting big angles here either because out here
in the plains we don't have a lot of high hills to shoot off of.
Where I used it most was in Wyoming shooting across canyons down
into draws. I found that in the same shooting position I would engage 4
targets from say 550 to 980 yards and depending on where the target was
I could have maybe a 30 degree down hill shot at the 550 yard target and
then have around a 15 degree or less shot for one further out.
I think you can see what I am getting at. I don't really know what
the exact angle is and I can be off and easy 10 degrees maybe more. I think
what has happened with me an others on here is that through the years of
shooting we have come to learn where to hold or what to use and damn if
we don't get pretty damn close a lot of times.
I know your trying to say that what you have is better or more accurate
but in the REAL WORLD that we shoot in we probably don't have the EXACT
angle or humidity or elevation and there for our calculations would be
flawed anyway.
What the MM gives us is a ball park to play in and the rest as, Rick
says, is just experience and SWAG based on that experience. If I was always
shooting low on my angle targets I would jump on your band wagon but I
have shot over them as much as under if I miss so I don't know what the
answer is other than PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE. Just my thoughts on this
and now I will jump off my soap box.
Thanks. We all get a bit testy at times. You responded as a gentleman
and I appreciate it. End.
NOW!!
I finally got up with Lou and we went over your basic premise. He
told me that this was the method he used in his angle calculations for
his Ballisticards, based on hours of conversations with Sierra ballisticians
and a prof at MIT. This was after he groaned and cursed a bit, since angle
correction has been a thorn in his side for years. PLEASE, don't anybody
here contact him with any more angle questions! He feels that this issue
can be put to bed right now, and I agree.
There are tactical advantages to the "Quick Fix" method (more later),
but the method that Lou and Sierra use, and that you are advocating here,
is undeniably more accurate.
I would make one suggestion about your last post. Makes it less "cumbersome."
Let's take a steep angle example, a 500 yard shot at 45 degrees.
Using Black Hills data for their 175 gr. .308 with a 100 yd. zero, we have
a come-up of 11.7 MOA (61.25"). Multiplying by .707 (cos 45) gives us a
drop of 43.3", our corrected drop for that angle. At 500 yds., that translates
to 8.3 MOA, our new come-up for 45 degrees.
EASIER:
11.7 MOA times cos 45 equals 8.3 MOA.
I think (and Lou agrees) that you can simply take the come-up for
a range, use the Range scale, (11.7 MOA = 1170 yds., set to "Target Range"
index), and read corrected come-up at the angle (830 yds. = 8.3 MOA), without
bouncing back and forth. This simple method is what I proposed on 09 April,
but I guess I didn't make it clear.
You should have come-ups on the back of your Mildot Master, anyway,
not inches of drop.
Please try your examples with this method on the Mildot Master on
my website (click on my name) and let me know if this is consistent with
your findings.
I would point out two things again:
This method is easily used with the Mildot Master.
The two methods described in the manual are "quick fix" methods designated
for use at shorter ranges (500 or less) and shallow agles (15 degrees or
less). The reason that the Quick fix is so widely used is because of the
prevalence of BDC-equipped scopes, and the manual points out that you can
range, then look at the corrected range without moving the slide, and turn
the BDC to the corrected range and be done with it. (I know, Pablito, they're
dials, not BDC's). The "quick fix" method is acceptably accurate within
the limits described above.
I will gladly include additional information that addresses the come-up
correction method in future revisions of the manual, for those users considering
long-range, steeper angle shooting. While I doubt that many of you are
going to to encounter any 30 degree 1000 yard shots, it couldn't hurt.
Brand,
Those are the scales I used. I just think the Mildot Master is quicker.
Please try it out at the website and see if you don't agree.
To All:
I'm done with this (unless someone wants to continue off-line). It's
been a pleasure, we've all learned something, and all who participated
have my thanks. Within a month, I hope that we can direct any slope correction
questions "To The Archives!"
Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Tall tales?
Man I'm crushed.
Narrowed the choices to Leupold VariX II 3-9 and the 6X42mm, both
tactical scopes. Is the MilDot really that useful over 500 yards for range
estimation? Have used the crosshair opening for years with reasonable results.
Pros & cons of anti relection device over lens shade. Is it a real
issue? Really like the variable for wider field of view when necessary
and higher magnification for intelligence/target ID.
Onward and upward to new heights of shooting wisdom!
Remember the NC state championship 1000 yard match at Hawk's Ridge
is the weekend of April 21.
http://www.nc1000ydshooters.com/
For a philosophical question, is there any practical, non-hunting,
tactical use for a 7 mag or 300 mag Sendero? Think on that one as I have
some selling/trading issues at hand. I still have the chones for the 6.5x284
and there are no elk or elephants in NC to hunt.
If a 175 grain, 30 cal boolit is the match boolit of choice for the
308, why is it not also the choice for a 300 mag?
Any need to carry binos on the stalk comp at Storm? Trying to pair
down the weight.
Anyone have a snake proof face mask for the stalk?
A whooped Bolt, out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
Jim Wise
I like the Mil-Dot Master. A lot. If you don't have one, carry your
slope cards. Or memorize your angle compensation factors (.7, .8, .9, etc.).
I kind of agree with you, Mike, in that you should be able to take
all variables out of the "One shot - one kill" philosophy. But rifles,
ammo, and human beings being what they are in April 2001, you can't get
everything into a small package (yet).
If you had the space and the vehicle to get it around full-time in,
the package would be awesome. How big is it going to be, and how much are
you as a hobbyist willing to pay for it (in both sweat and dollars)? Prime
example: the 120mm rifle on the M1A2 tank can fire sabots (depleted uranium
"darts"), High explosive anti-tank (HEAT) shells, and a few other different
types of ammo at a moving target (while your own tank is moving) and expect
a FIRST ROUND HIT, IN THE DARK, while hauling in excess of 75 miles per
hour over rough terrain. Your first movement is to select your ammo type.
Your computer then corrects for movement on three axes, barrel droop, rifling
wear, wind, temperature, humidity, drift, etc., etc.
Would that be great on a rifle? You bet. Hasn't been built yet, though.
Think of it: select from 155, 168, 175, 190, etc. HPBT/tracer/AP/APIT.
Squeeze trigger. Hit.
Visit the Lilja home page in the Hot Links section, and you'll read
of big game kills at 600, 700, 1,000, and 1100 yards.
Precision Shooting's book, "Precision Shooting at 1,000 Yards" has
some awesome long-range articles from fellas who have gone beyond the slide
rule stage and shot at range. On 31 May, 2000, Kreg Slack fired three 300
grain Sierra Match Kings from a .338 Lapua Magnum to kill a prairie dog
at 3,125 (witnessed) yards. His previous record was 2,632 yards with a
.308 Ackley Improved (308 Win with adjusted shoulder) in a Winchester Model
70. Bullet drop approaches 900 feet at 3,000 yards.
Load it and shoot, then argue math. Or give Bruce Robinson a check.
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
The M70 trigger is easy. Pull the action out of the stock, and you
will see a threaded screw through the trigger. There are three small 1/4"
nuts on the screw.
Cut two coils off the spring, and re-asemble... readjust the pull,
and do all the tests that you did for the Remington... and go shoot it!
Bolt-ster...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
You're crushed??...HAH!!!!!!
I will be, when I see the pudding!!!!(((:
Matter of fact, I been meaning to check on your achievements.
Oh great one of the long ranges.........
Two Shoes
Well I had a bad day until UPS met me at the door with my new GNA
Precision built Rifle. Dont know what to call it yet. George has made a
Remington 700 based 338 Lapua and it looks like a million bucks. Can not
wait for the shooting next week. Any help with the name? He can market
these now and make a Lapua we all can afford. Very nice job George.
Now Jerry is building me a new 338 Ultra with a new recoil device
that should catch some eyes. Kxp bbl, M40A1 stock, new device and no muzzle
brake. Now this should be something interesting. The recoil device replaces
the 3 way adjustable butt plate. I am looking for something I can carry,
kill Elk and shoot at very long ranges with.
Looks like I am going to Pendelton next month for two weeks or so.
Great bunch of guys and I can not wait to get down there and bust some
caps with the USMC.
I came up with a new sling yesterday and you guys are the first to
hear of it. It is a Tuff Cuff for a M4/MP5/FAL with a quick disconnect
for that "Oh S... I need to dump this rifle thing". Hope to have something
on the site soon. Pete you want one to test?
Many things on the fire. Have to run.
Undude
I've been working hard to come up with a few rifle projects for this
summer, I'm getting bored making barrels for everyone but me :)
Here's what I've got so far,
1)H-S .308 Win HTR
action: H-S Precision Stainless steel Short Action
bbl: 26" length, 1/10" twist, 6 groove, fluted, possibly teflon finish
but I'll probably end up camo'ing the whole rifle
stock: PST 25(SA tac), with forend rail, SS 4 round Detachable Mag
peeps: I'm looking at least at the Mark4 M1-10x40 3/4mildot, but
I need to see what my sis can get thru Cabela's(works there) cuz I like
the US Optics. Plus I have a buddy in Norway who I'd like to speak to about
a few German scopes.
strap: The Tactical Intervention sling built by good buddy Mike Miller
of course!!
2)JR 6.5 x 284, built by JR(me) and JR(Jerry Rice):
I want to tear the pipe off my 300 Win Mag HTR (trued and lapped
Remington receiver, H-S 05F stock and barrel, which I built both) and rebarrel
it to 6.5X284. I'd like to send a 30" barrel blank (unturned) to either
Jerry or George Gardner, and have them work their magic. I think that the
contouring, chamber and crown, and fitting should be done in the same shop.
MikeM, Norcal turns barrels, don't they??
All in all, it should be a good year if I can get these projects
to come to light this summer :) Car(s) will be paid off, and I'm lucky
enough to be single, so what the hell else am I going to spend money on!!!
heheh
mrbullet:
Like I said, I haven't 'seen' the 260Rem work downrange, but at 100
yds, it's not convincing me that it is superior enough to the 7-08 or .308
to justify building one for myself. You have a lot more experience with
the round than I do, so I digress. If I can get the 6.5 x 284 built before
D&L, I'll send it with ya regardless if I can make it down there or
not.
later guys
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
All the math is going way over my head...flunked math!!! Never had
a good use for most of it (until recently!!). FWIW (about 2 cents AFTER
taxes) I would rather be shooting to see where the bullets go than trying
to figure it out on a slide rule. Then again, no one's life hangs in the
balance on my shooting.
I am pretty excited..picked up a pistola for the wife...she shot
it...she hit with it...she LIKED IT....and now she's ASKING FOR MORE TARGETS!!!!.
I told her "quit looking at me like that" LOL.
Need some info, please email me account off topic...
Article on the Savage stock fix would be much more effective with
some pics. Working on borrowing the digital camera thingy.
Mike..new sling sounds cool. I currently use the...."boonie packer"
I think it is called....on my CAR15 lightweight. I like it, however I do
have an issue or two with it. Your new sling will be more useful?
....still waiting for the ground to dry so I can play with the tractor
and fix up my backstop...but it just keeps on raining!!!
I appreciate the feedback and interaction that I've had with all
of you. I've learned a couple of things, and I think it works both ways.
Even if it gets a bit rough in the middle!
Lets lay this one aside for a while. I'm still open to off-board
email, though.
On that automatic hole punch called the M1A Abrams - I wonder how
they dope the wind in that machine? Or maybe the MV and BC are so high
that it doesn't matter? I know MV is over 5000 FPS. That's moving! Bet
the BC is way over 1, too. They aren't afraid to shine a laser to get a
range, either. Probably 10 watts worth or so, about 10 milliseconds before
they fire. If the round misses, the laser pulse will blind the opposition!
How to get that kind of ballistics from a shoulder-fired wep? Maybe
about a 2 mm dart about 4" long? Talk about a long action bolt!
Regards
Mike - the armchair sniper
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Yer not just trying to butter me up so I'll tell you to let your
ugly sister know where to bring the cookies, are ya!! ;)
I agree with ya, a lot of the BC's the bullet companies are advertising
are not precise, and one company's BC inveritably differs from the next.
They need to compute according to the same standard, and they don't. Plus,
a solid bullet's BC may match a lead-core bullet's, but will fly differently.
out
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
We just turned up the Texas Brigade Armory website. Very minor tweek
or two with a picture.. but the good stuff is there and easy to follow.
http://www.texasbrigadearmory.com
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
He finely went and got himself a REAL RIFFLE... a Winchester M70
heavy Target, made in the 60's with a pig fat tube, and a beautiful stock,
in .308... like the one that Sinister got last fall, and like the one I
got last year... no more .308 towed.. now he's got a real gun ;))
Congratulations Ken...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
whew!
Okay... 2 items for your viewing....
1. Pablito has written a piece for both introductions for newbies,
and older hogs that need a refresher...
Should be easy to load ... not too fancy on formatting..
2. Also... BMG's slope shooting paper... now... if you have the adobe
reader plugin on your browser... then do this:
http://www.snipercountry.com/SlopeShooting/shoot_on_slope_draft.pdf
I tried to read that .pdf file into ms word and ms front page...
no workie... most of the hogs should be able to pull this down and read
or print it.
If not - then go to the adobe website and download the adobe reader
for free...
Pablito: Yea....thing is ... that Winch. M70 is crying out quite
loudly for one of those long unertl's
Hold Hard Hogs... Ima hittin' the sack...
Ken :)
Ken
Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
First on gear: I know you guys have said that an e-tool is useful,
seems I remember Kent recomending a Glock. I quit carrying one the day
I didn't have to anymore. The tri-fold POS, is, in my mind, exactly that.
They don't hold up for ANYTHING with a modicum of abuse or hard use. Are
the heavier ones worth carrying? Would the Glock model be a waste of weight
and space? I'm thinking of having that harness "pack mod" put on my pack
if it's worth while, just to have it all done at the same time. Comments?
Second off, also on gear: Gonna have some mag pouches made up, but
there's two things I need to figure out before I have it all done. First
off is what kind of buckles to use. I've got the ones like are on a standard
'16 mag pouch, and I've got some that are like small A3 belt buckles. I
notice that Blackhawk uses the latter on some of their stuff, and I know
that I've broken the little "prong" part of a standard '16 mag pouch buckle.
Anyone have any good suggestions? The reason for the custom mag pouches
is so that I can have my '14 mags WITH the magpuls (thanks Mike! You're
the cause of this addiction) AND turn one of the mag dividers into a very
thin pouch for the mildot master, so I can have it EVERYTIME I don my gear.
And I also need some of that plastic fabric stiffener stuff like in the
'16 pouches to do it right. Any good suggestions on where I can get some?
Last question, also on gear ;-) Hey UnDude: if that new one is good
for a FAL, I'm assuming it'd be good for a '14? I'd be REALLY interested
in something that would work for the '14, and if it ALSO works on the CAR,
then more power going! You gonna do me up one in 1.25" OD? *PLEASE*? I
know 1.25" is a touch wide on a CAR, but it's just right for a '14.
All: This extreme difference in elevation problem may very well be
useful for those of us who hunt in the mountains. These incremental improvements
are important. Error accumulates.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
you....you mean in ..... THIN AIR ???
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
The Glock E-tool is about as good as they get. It is still fragile
and cannot be expected to hold up to much abuse. I didn't go with the "Spetsnaz"
tool because although it is tough it doesn't have the L-fold scoop mode.
To dig a spider hole you need to be able to scoop. Don't overlook the E-tool
as a weapon. In my opinion a properly sharpened E-tool is a 21st Century
battle axe and can be used to some effect in that role. It's tempting to
leave the E-tool behind because it is heavy however when you need it you
really NEED it. The handle of the Gock is non-conductive and this can be
a plus. Another nice feature of the Glock E-tool is that is has a wood
saw in the handle which allows you to quietly gather necessary materials.
I also pack a bastard file to keep one edge sharp for light chopping chores.
I keep some 550 cord wrapped around the handle to use for lashing.
Mag-Pulls are neat but I can't get my standard magazine pouches to
close over them. I'm still looking for a pouch that will fit. Any suggestions?
Years ago I used to use a strobe in my work and had a nice little
blue lens to go over it. This kept the Cobra guys from getting nervous.
Where can I get one of these lenses? Are they still used?
Are there small laser detectors/alarms available? This seems like
a useful device in todays environment.
Another great day here.
Flatlanders think so. The hard part is doping the swirling wind.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Simple question, hide development and placementfor a military sniper:
Ok, you move into your AO, now you need to find a place to rest your
behind and do your job. The location can either be in a natural or urban
environment.
1st, how would you select your hide?
I figure that we all do long range shooting and the majority of us
here are competent at shooting beyond 500 yards. But what about once we
get to a location to shoot, what is involved to creating an ideal situation
to shoot from.
Thanks all, and to those who will respond by E-Mail.
Darren...
Thanks for the quick answer on the Mod 70 trigger. I read your intro
that Ken Hunter put up, I think it's just right. Straightforward, no BS,
informative. If you're ever gonna be in Fla, e-mail and I'll buy you a
brew.
Need a tuneup before the Snipers Paradise thingie, or a trip to Storm?
TacPRo Shooting Center has a precision rifle course going on April
20-22 of this year that has just had several last minute cancellations;
slots are available.
The course covers the basics of precision rifle shooting from 100
to 1000 yards, instructed by Bill Davison, formerly British SBS, and a
local Tactical team rifleman from the DFW area. This gentleman is a former
Marine Corps shooting team member, knows his stuff. Bill ain't no slouch
either.
Course of fire will require a minimum of 300 rounds of ammunition.
The range is located 90 minutes west of DFW airport, and accomodations
are available in Stephenville, 18 miles south.
If it sounds interesting give them a call at 254-968-3112 or hit
me off line.
Thanks for the bandwidth.
Mike
Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Mike and Bruce..
I know that I have shot both over and under a target at long range
and I am sure thats probably part of the problem. This is why I have a
hard time with Mikes more complicated method. Like I said, I don't get
a lot of angle shooting because of where I live but I do have places where
I do some of it. The angles are usually never past 30 degrees though at
the longer ranges.
If I am shooting at a larger target it usually isn't much of a problem
but when it comes into play is when you have to shoot at a much smaller
target at longer ranges.
I am sure that on paper your correct Mike but I am still wondering
if it will be that noticalbe in the field. I guess it still makes me think
of the spin drift argument, it does make a difference but is it enough
of one???
In closing I would like to thank both of you guys for trying to make
things better and easier for us trigger pullers, my hats off to you both
and to the rest of you guys out there who do the same!!!!!!!
Let's say there are 20 factors that affect the shot and that you
are almost certain of the behavior of all 20 factors. Let's also say that
each will work the way you want with the probability of .99. That means
that you have a probality of .99^20 = .82 of making the shot. That's not
great.
Now let's say that each will happen with the probability of .98.
That's .98^20 = .67. The difference between .98 and .99 looks small, but
the error accumulates.
If you swap those .98s for .95s you are down to a probability of
.36 of making your hit.
Individual differences are small, but the differences add up. Any
time I get a freebie way of reducing error, I do it.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Your questions:
1st, how would you select your hide? I would select it based on all
available intel. (ie cover and concealment both on the ground and from
the air, avenues of approach, time on target, E&E routes, distance
to extraction point, alternates, etc.)
2nd, when do you determine your E&E route? When planning for
the mission. The more you plan the more likely it will work and there will
be fewer suprises.
3rd, do you have one or two E&E route setup? There are always
primary and secondary objectives and route selections. Whether in a direct
action or just intel gathering mission. This includes movement both in
and out. E&E routes can be routes or networks already pre-established
depending on how deep your infiltrating or how long operations have been
conducted in the area of operation. May even involve contact with the local
indigenous for their assistance.
4th, do you determine your location indicator before you get into
your hide? I'm not sure what you mean by location indicator. (The objective
or movement into an FFP ? Or knowing where you are and where you have to
be and when?)
5th, the hide, for urban, I figure timing is not as big of an issue
as say in a natural environment. In a natural environment, when is it best
to move to your FFP and create your hide? Best movement is in low light
and bad weather. Sometimes!! Object is to avoid detection. This depends
alot on the enemies capabilitites. (eyes, ears, and reaction times) Always
assume the enemy is watching and listening.
6th, what is involved in creating a hide? Is it a hasty target of
opportunity or a long term supporting role position? Plain natural concealment
and cover might be best assuming you stalk, take the shot and leave. I
guess the bottom line is how long you plan to stay and how much time you
have to do it in. Deception and what it takes comes to mind.
7th, what are the general no no's when creating a hide? Keep it natural,
blend in, cover your movements, sounds, etc. Out of sight out of mind seems
to fit the idea here.
Hope others join in. Active and former military. Would like to hear
from LE on whether there is a plan in place or do you just go by available
intel and rely on training to sieze the situation at hand?
De Oppresso Liber. We penetrate deeper. We stay longer. We carry
a heavier load.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Here's my analysis. OK, maybe analysis is too strong a word! I haven't
beat this out in mathematical detail. A quick look says that the cosine-drop
method ought to have less than a 1% inherent error, and that only at steep
angles, for shots with 1-2 second TOF. The error will get worse with long
Time Of Flight.
The cosine-range method can have rather larger inherent errors, around
10% in the example in my paper. Error being a function of both range and
slope. Angular estimation errors add to the inherent error in both methods.
Using cosine-drop, to get a 10% error due to slope mis-estimation
would require you mis-estimate a 25 degree slope as 0, or as 36, degrees.
That ought to be hard to do. Steeper slopes will be more sensitive to angle
errors, in both methods.
Cosine-range is more sensitive to angular errors than cosine-drop,
since angle errors cause you to go to different places in the drop table.
The drops that you find are related to t squared.
I suggest that you try the cosine-range method with an assumed range
and several slightly different angles to see what the error sensitivity
might be with your load data. Compare it with the JBM ballistics program
for the same range and angles. (JBM comes up with the same corrected angle
that cosine-drop does.)
You have an angle estimator at the end of your arm, even if you lose
your Mil-Dot Master. My fist covers about 9 degrees with my arm extended.
Your fist may be different. I can stack fists to estimate bigger angles,
and I think I can come within 5 degrees (half-fist) on not-too-steep slopes.
HTH - Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Don't want to gore anyone's ox here, but the spin drift error is
a constant - not random, for a particular range. If you could dope the
wind 100% correctly, that constant would show up.
To my way of thinking, random errors are the unpredictable results
of factors of which you have incomplete knowledge or control. Systematic
departures from your point of aim can be compensated for, if you know of
them. They contribute a shift in the center of the random dispersion due
to the other factors.
Mike's view from the armchair
Like Tony it's been a long time since I worked in the field but here
are a few of my thoughts....
Security, security, security....see the enemy first. There are a
number of historical fights gone bad because the element of surprise was
lost or simple security measures were not taken. This goes for the SWAT
guys too. I have watched TV coverage of SWAT deployments with the long
riflemen deploying like they were on the way to the range. One of these
days a hard lesson will be learned because the BGs will have planned ahead
or come prepared to deal with the police snipers. Always provide for security
and have a "what if" plan. Just because you are part of an inward looking
perimeter don't assume that a threat can't come from your six o'clock.
Remember the objective is to hit your target and SURVIVE. Your route
of egress is critical. This route needs to be covered and concealed. When
the time comes to leave do so. Don't hang around.
I'm not sure I'd build any type of hide or dugout forward of the
FEBA. It seems to me you'd want to leave no evidence of your activities
other than enemy casualties. This might not be the school solution. Rick
would know better than me.
I have not thought in these terms in a long time.
out
HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
Now you're talking my country! Houah! Unfortunately, RC cola is hard
to get (virtually impossible) here, like McEwans Export, and finding moon
pies, especially banana, is troublesome at best. It's rough living on the
frontier sometimes LOL
A son of the Confederacy
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Darren...
Pablito,
********
McEwan's, eh? One of the better ones... recently taken after Negro
Modelo, still fond of Killian's and Rolling Rock, but if you're buyin'
whatever I'm drinkin' whatever! ;-)
L8R,
-L
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
I am not LE or Military but between here and the other umpteen thousand
sites that I have been to, here is my 1 1/2 cents worth.
"Ok, you move into your AO, now you need to find a place to rest
your behind and do your job. The location can either be in a natural or
urban environment."
First, you need to know as much as you can before you enter your
AO. As Sinister pointed out, there are many forms of recon involved including
ground and overhead photos, topo maps, captives, etc. This type of intell
will reduce your pucker factor before you get on the bus.
"1st, how would you select your hide?"
Unless you are in a true military environment, remember most civies
don't know what to look for or where to look exept for what they have seen
in the movies. Roofs, bushes, windows, etc. You can therefore start eliminating
the obivious. Start thinking of being behind fences of all types, unfinished
buildings, rubble piles, etc. In a mil eviron, you need to be thinking
like a spotter. What would you be looking for if you were looking for you?
In my opinion your hide should be choosen based on the following:
"2nd, when do you determine your E&E route?"
Before the trip using intell or during the trip in.
"3rd, do you have one or two E&E route setup?"
At least two, one main and one that you can double back on.
"4th, do you determine your location indicator before you get into
your hide?"
Lost me on this one.
"5th, the hide, for urban, I figure timing is not as big of an issue
as say in a natural environment. In a natural environment, when is it best
to move to your FFP and create your hide?"
Timing is the main issue in creating any hide, urban or natural.
You have to use the ambient natural environment to cover your movement
and noise. You want to create it when you think the BG is not at his peak
give-a-shit level. In the urban, it may be during the middle of the day
when everyone is moving everywhere and not paying attention to anything
particular. You could go in as a normal run of the mil civy and set up.
In the natural, it may be the middle of the day when the BG is sleepy from
the nights gaurd duty, maybe at night, maybe when the wind is blowing hard,
when it is raining, etc.
"6th, what is involved in creating a hide?"
Buy the tape called "The Art of Camoflauge".
"7th, what are the general no no's when creating a hide?"
Don't set up too close.
"I figure that we all do long range shooting and the majority of
us here are competent at shooting beyond 500 yards. But what about once
we get to a location to shoot, what is involved to creating an ideal situation
to shoot from."
I wasn't paranoid during Y2K but I thought that the BG's might be
out to get me. I now know EVERY quality FFP in this neighborhood area and
can get there without even my neighbors knowing it. There are four FFP's
that I can cover every entrance to my AO. I can move from FFP to FFP without
attracting any attention. I did this by walking it day after day at various
times of the day, in various types of weather. I also had 5 routes to get
to my mothers house from two different locations, which is across town
and had FFP's there also.
You can't guess at this game. You have to use all the intell available.
If there is none available, you have to use your imagination.
Damn, that was pretty good poop for a rookie, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
Killflash: checked their site and compared Leupold objective specs.
Looks like you could turn the $35 unit on a lathe to where it would work
on VariX 2 & 3 units. Anyone try it yet? Emailed them to see if they'd
say anything.
Pablito: would you sell off one of your dust collecting loopy ARD's
to provide dimensions for alterations to Killflash M1's????
Thanks guys.
Took your advice of a couple days back. Called Garth Kendig at Lupita
and asked about sun shades for the M1/M3 LR scopes. Loopy will re-do your
"old" scopes for $31 and sell you a shade for $26. The shades are the ones
that fit the MK IV and not the regular ones. He claims a turn-around time
of one week for the mod. He wasn't sure when the new scopes would come
out with the thread adapter installed. Have to use up all of the old parts
before you go with the new ones! Guess I'll have to send off my new scope
for the mod before I hang it on my new toy!
Time to resume "Happy Hour",
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
Magpul pouches- Correct-an M-16 pouch will not cut it no matter how.
The design of the clip does not allow enough room for magpul loops and
the magpuld width themselves prevent carrying three in that pouch. A suggestion-if
going military equipement-is to use a 308 pouch.
You have three other options:
Personally- I use a thigh pouch (as you know Bravo) so I can lie
prone without too many magazines digging into my ribs. I like the Eagle
stuff for that. Those of you with short legs (Bravo) and like to carry
two mags and a mildot/map/etc on a thigh pouch-look at the LBT product
#LBTC-0210B. I am buying that to field test also (and no Bravo-you can't
have it afterwards).
Take care-Mike T
Titan - Did not forget Ken M was right - they (HSM 77grs) miked out
at the same as SS109 (C77 at least) - but forgot what exactly that was.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Oh yeah- I am calling up the big boss for your behalf tomorrow...let
you know if I get anywhere or shot down in flames.
Mike T
WR Moore: I like your take on barrel break in. The first 20 rounds
down the tube of my M-25 was at the all-fleet, took 5th place. That was
also the "testfire" before it was sent to me. He included the scoring disc,
'cause the spindle was shot out of it. It's gotten much better with time.
Mike: I've been playing with that thigh mag holder on the days when
it's NOT snowing (stopped yesterday) and I've only got 2 complaints. First
off, I can't get it to stay put on the belt, and second it gets in the
way of my BDU leg pockets. I'm messing with different ways of keeping it
in place, 'cause after messing around with it, I LIKE IT! I'm betting that
one of those velcro double belt deals would keep it locked RIGHT where
set, but I've not messed with that yet. Still, good idea!
Sir Wes: got the '14 mag holder, I've got to say, when I took it
out of the envelope, I didn't think I'd like it. I've tried the thermoplastic
holsters, and don't like them. Then I got to looking at how it was made,
and the phrase that sticks in my mind is "WELL thought out!". I noticed
that it fits better on my gunbelt than my regular pants belt, but this
isn't anything to think about. It doesn't have that standard "SLURRREPTTH!"
sound when you take the mag out either ;-) It's held tight enough to not
worry about running and doing other gymnastics with, but not so tight that
it can't be pulled right out easily! Very well done! I'm going to wear
it on the next IDPA shoot, just to see how it does the run-&-gun, but
right now my estimation is that it's actually something that I'd use! HA!
Actually that's saying something there. As you said, JUST the ticket for
a nice brisk walk in the woods.
Andy's Dad: the guy I got my M-14 mag pouches from does custom work.
I'd give you his number and e-mail, but he answers neither for the last
month or so now. Thus I'm having my local seamstress do it, using my old
medium Alice for material. Unless someone has another contact for custom
pouches and such.
Loads are: Federal Case
Example: Shooting at Camp Butner, moving from the 200 to the 600
I have to dial in 13.25 MOA
Glad you got, and like, the M-14 holders. My reaction was same as
yours...typical kydex construction, BUT the difference is in the execution.
Glad I have two...
Yes, they are made for the 1 3/4" instructor belt. That's what I
wear instructing and in the field and specified. Can be made for any belt
width. Bet they can even do the Alice Clip thing, if you want.
Like you, I'm impressed. The holders grip the magazine firmly and
stay positioned properly. I'm thinking of a double arrangement in a drop
down thigh rig for CQB work might be the ticket...M-16 version, of course!
I have tested the MP-5 version...it's every bit as good.
'Lito,
Thanks for the M70 trigger instructions. Simple. Even "watashi wa"
can understand, ne?
Plan on adjusting over the weekend. Am waiting for my steel trigger
guard and hex head screws for the M70 to arrive. Will do it all at once
and torque to 65 inch pounds...
All for now,
Wes
Today Colonel Bob Hoidahl assumed command of the US Army Marksmanship
Unit at Fort Benning, Georgia, from Colonel Arch Arnold. Prior to that,
I got to generally pester and make myself a pain in the ass to some of
the gunsmiths and custom ammo guys of the USAMU "Skunk Works" over some
of the new sniper gear they're building for Special Forces.
NICE stuff!
They call the 6.5 x 284 for 1,000 yards the "Fag Mag," because it
does everything the 300 Win Mag does, as flat, and not as wind sensitive,
without knocking you silly.
Some of the things that they had laid out would make most of the
regulars go "Ooooooh."
Looks like Phil Seeberger's OPSINC supporessors and muzzle brakes
are still very popular.
Other stuff that's way cool, but if I told you about it they'd have
to cut off my head and lock it in the safe. But wow! Eventually you'll
see it in the magazines or on TV.
Amazing that for 24 years I've been paid to think of better ways
to solve certain cross-cultural communications problems with small arms,
and these guys can quickly crank out a prototype in steel, synthetic, brass,
bullets, and powder. What a great bunch of guys. Truly a Gun Queer's heaven.
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
What's the altitude and temperature at Camp Butner? Did you input
those to the JBM calculator?
Good call. I first used the default settings for that information
and that gave me the #s previously posted. Then I punched in info as close
as I could remember. I THINK: Butner is in the eastern part of NC so alt
is probably 500 - 1000ft, temp that day was probably 75 deg with at least
that in humidity. Sorry for the loose info but this was last year, late
summer early fall. With this info plugged in the velocity was still north
of 2,500. Thanks.
Bolt
Saw your post about the NC 1000 State Championships, you going to
be there? I grew up not too far from Wilkesboro and family still there.
Be a good excuse to go visit for the weekend.
Hank <hank@vocallect.com>
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
What general advice can you give me for teaching someone to shoot
for the first time? I've never personally had much formal instruction -
aside from when I was qualified on the M16 and M9 a couple of years ago,
and some skeet lessons a few years before that - so I don't have many examples
to follow. Any comments are welcome.
Very respectfully,
The Fag Mag? TOTALLY laughed my ass off! Didya run into Master Rick
or "Hook" while thar? I am currently heading for the South Mountain Bunker
and going DEEP to await incoming for deriding the hee-hee, snicker, ho-ho,
Sir Wes,
Un-Dude,
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Boomhauer wrote:
Oh-kay so sue me, I took it out of context.............?
RFLMAO!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Sorry I missed your Q. earlier. The can weighs about 1 1/2 pounds,
and is almost 8 in. long. It is quickly removable, so you don't necessarily
have to lug your rifle is that configuration. Have not tried it at long
range. Accuracy does not seem to be degraded much at 100 yards or less.
Mike
First off, thanks for the input from everyone who decided to take
the time and answer my question. I really appreciate it.
Second, I must say, since Ken put in the password, the site has been
enjoyable to read. No more nonsense here to shift through.
Third, I spoke to the Undude the other day about the new M40A3 from
the Marine Corps. He told me that the STA guys hate it. I am wondering
if there are any current STA guys who frequent this site that can provide
us their thoughts on their new rifle. However, if not, but there are others
on the site that have seen, touched or played with the rifle I would like
to hear your thoughts and opinions too.
Mag Pulls --
Here is my two cent on this. When I was in the fleet, I would tape
the mags with duck tape. I found that when I used 550 cord, that at times
they would be difficult to grab, and when I did grab it, at times the cord
would break loose from the duck tape :( Bad idea, very bad idea. I did
three things to remedy the retreival of my mags in haste. 1st, I cut the
damn nylon divider in my ammo pouch. It is a good idea to befriend a supply
guy or one of the guys who work in the warehouse to provide extras for
inspections. 2nd, is to just use duck tape as a mean of grabbing the magazine.
3rd, instead of facing the magazine out board, I faced them forward for
easy retrieval; that is why I cut the nylon dividers. Once again, my two
cents and my experience...
Darren...
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
I also had one 400yd group down that was 2.73" with a note that 4
were under 2". I had also shot a couple of groups with 168s that same day
and they were a tad tighter averageing in the .6 MOA range at 400yds so
since I only shot the one group of 155s it really doesn't tell us much.
I hope to get out when it drys up and try them at the longer ranges
with both 46.5 and 47grs. I won't load them down any lower because then
I feel that we loose what were trying to gain here by going to the lighter
bullets.
Hank..
Tony..
I also had one 400yd group down that was 2.73" with a note that 4
were under 2". I had also shot a couple of groups with 168s that same day
and they were a tad tighter averageing in the .6 MOA range at 400yds so
since I only shot the one group of 155s it really doesn't tell us much.
I hope to get out when it drys up and try them at the longer ranges
with both 46.5 and 47grs. I won't load them down any lower because then
I feel that we loose what were trying to gain here by going to the lighter
bullets.
Hank..
Tony..
Guys the M40A3 Rifle uses same basic stock that is in the review
section under "McMillan A4". I love that stock no matter what Col.Chandler
says.
The scope being used on the final project is up in the air. Right
now they are putting the new and rebuilt, by US Optics, M40A1 scopes on
the rifles.
The bbls are Scheider.
The Bases and floor metal are DD Ross.
The rings were GGxG but that may be changed to ?
No worries Darren.
Undude
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-m40a3.html
Interesting how individuals have different view points.
Darren...
Jerry
Well, there is no such critter as STA(Surveillence and Target Aquisition)
anymore, we're all Scout-Sniper platoons, just thought I'd pass the word.
Phased out ground radar and some other gear, so it's just snipers left,
so the name changed.
As for the M40A3, you have to look at it like this: I love the idea
that I'm finally getting new stuff, some of the M40A1's are REALLY clapped
out. I sent a Marine to the 1st Rgt S/S school and they had one rifle there
with the bolt attached to the rifle with 550cord because the bolt release
was broken. That's unsat. The rifles in my platoon are mostly OK, it's
minor stuff like rough cocking cams, and worn bolt guideways that sometimes
make life difficult. Bolt binding and rounds crossbridging in the magwell
are just a PITA. You have to realize that most of these receivers are from
1968 time frame. That being the case, the M40A3 will be a great thing since
it's brand new.
OTOH, it's too damned heavy. I think the USMC gurus payed entirely
too much attention to civilian tactical shooters and looked too much at
the crap the MEU(SOC)'s have been doing. Yeah, a 18+lbs bench gun is great
for banging Sammis and Liberians off the third floor of the embassy, but
it's going to suck ass out in the field where you have to hump three-five
days worth of water and batteries for the PRC104's and 119's. I think the
stock is going to be an improvement, I think the suppressor is awesome
and should have been done years ago(I actually was in the process of submitting
a position paper to Rgt PLEADING for suppressed weapons when I heard that
the M40A3 was going to be suppressed, I still think I'll ask for suppressors
for the M9's, but it's no longer so urgent). I think the scope rail is
a good idea, as is the mount for the Simrad(the armourers used to confiscate
those if you didn't remove them when the rifles were sent to RTE armourers)
But to be honest, I can't give you a real opinion until they get issued,
which will be God-knows-when. After the platoon humps them around for a
while, I'm sure I'll hear all about it. Semper Fidelis...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
I think this whole issue on the M40A3 has been blown out of proportion.
Hell I dont think there is an issue. The concept is solid. The idea of
the suppressor is excellent. The stock is the best damm prone field stock
I have ever used. Metal you could drive nails with and scopes you could
break 2x4's with. What the heck is wrong with that? I have not weighed
one yet, but I believe the 17lbs is with the suppressor not without. The
stock weighs 3lbs 4oz. The scope 2 3/4lbs and the bbl is about a number
7 taper at 24". That does not add up to 17lbs unless the floor metal and
scope base about 5-7lbs, and that they dont.
I am looking forward to useing the system. Basically it is my NorCal
NightHawk with a different bbl and floor metal. The Nighthawk has held
up well so no worries.
Undude done for the day. Back to slings
Unsat??!! Whoah!! Ken, you have gift for understatement.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
As for STA, let put this to rest now by saying I am the culprit that
said it and not Mike. That was how I knew it back in the 80's. Sorry Mike
for that one.
As for the condition of the Scout Sniper's rifle, wow what an eye
opener is an understatement from me. I never knew that it was that bad
until now. It is nice to hear about the conditions of our Marines and Soldiers
and sad to know at the same time too. It is also nice to know what conditions
their weapons are in so that we can better judge what we write on this
site. Given what I have read this morning, moving to the M40A3 is the ideal
thing to do given the current situation in the Scout Sniper Platoons. The
weight is my only concern...
Darren...
I didn't mean to imply that the USMC sniper community is using crap
rifles because that is not the case at all. It's just that some of the
M40A1's are OLD, and they are just worn out. There is no getting around
it. 30 years of sand, dust, filth and surface rust takes a toll. These
rifles get lots and lots of field use, and guys using them don't really
like sending them to the RTE because then they're gone for 8-12 monthes.
So they make them last longer than they should. My rifle right now, #221379
works fine, it's bolt isn't as smooth as my M70 match rifle, but that's
because the cocking cam isn't quite right and the bolt has some wobble
because the rails have been worn out over the last 30 years. It still hits
what I aim at. I was making 900+yd hits at Hawthorne, Nevada last year.
That nasty high angle stuff that is being discussed. Well, the math they
taught us worked fine. I was making occasional 1100+ yd hits at CAX the
year prior, and the wind was blowing something fierce. So the rifle's still
work(most of them). I have one brand new rifle in the platoon, it has a
Schnieder tube. The older guns use Harts. They both work just fine.
Undude, I haven't touched or felt the new rifle yet. I sincerly hope
the weight numbers I've received are wrong and that 18.5lb number is a
complete system number(can and Simrad) Jane's was saying 14.5lbs and I
hope they are right. But until they actually get issued, I won't know.
As I said, I reserve judgement. And I'll be sure to relay all the good
and bad points that my platoon brings up when they are issued. Semper Fidelis...
The team got together and decided that only commissioned officers
are fully qualified to carry the breaching gear.
Dope it, Dial it, Dump it
CT
I have a Max HV installed, which is 26", and is one size Larger than
the typical contour used in past M40A1's........
No sling.
Steel TG by Tactical rifle stocks....one piece John Baier model.
Two Shoes
Sorry 'bout that, I wasn't trying to involve you with my .308 Win
project, I'll have the work done on that rifle at H-S, and yes I know the
1/12" shoots the 175's just fine, but I didn't say I was shooting 175's,
did I?
The project I was sending out is the 6.5 X 284, I don't have a chamber
reamer for that round.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Kevin of the GWN - thanks for the info, I have some SS109 to mic
if I understand you correctly.
Later
Titan
Mike
Sir Wes: A double in AR might not be too bad at all, a double for
20's would be just fine I'd think! A double for M-14's, I'm guessing, would
pull my pants down too much. I say that, 'cause when I tried carrying ammo
on my pants belt (with no suspenders), I was hitching 'em up continuously.
For '14 mags, I can't fathom how this could be any better. Maybe special
fit to the belt width, but THAT is it!
Patron Dave: I'm enthused about the "fag mag", but that doesn't mean
I want to take long hot showers with anyone (well, maybe Kathy Ireland
;-)).
PeteR: I don't have any of my GOOOOOOOOD beer left, I've got to do
some TIIIIIIIME on the press to load up all this Varget I boooooought,
the thumb safety on my 1911 abraids my thuuuuuuuuumb, and I've got to pay
yearly rent to the state guuuuuuuvmint on my car. Now THAT'S whining!
Boomhauer (Bravo)
<Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Pass on the reversable stuff from US CAv or BQ....it is more light
duty than you want. Your first expedition into the woods wil result in
your first trip to the tailor. If you are interested drop me a line and
I will get you the contact info for really good reversable woodland/black
Goretex. All the reversable stuff, by design, have long term wicking problems
though. It is also heavier than the regular stuff. Yep-we are getting this
stuff for the knuckle draggers...lol
Mike T
If I had MY say on the design of this dudeski...it would have an
A3 forearm,and A3 cheekpiece, and then I would say magnifique!!!!!!!!.
This, would have cut off at least 10-12 ounces, and gave it much
better position shooting qualities IMHO, which don't mean Squat.
But, as she sits, I can see it will shine in the prone.
After I read your post, I took mine down for some minor alterations,
and weighed er' again.....with a BR bipod, non swivel 5.5 exactly.
Two Shoes
We finally have excellent brass from Norma and exceddingly good factory
ammo from Jeff Hoffman's Black Hills Ammunition. The round has come of
age.
JR, Dave Kiff, at Pacific Precision, made my reamer and does stellar
work. He made the reamers for Black Hill's ammo and they are cut for the
AOL of the Black Hills round, at 2.980" OAL. If you need contact info I
can supply it.
I'm actually considering building a second 6.5 just for back up and
use as an understudy gun to my Chandler rifle, but that will have to wait
until my professional life gets settled. As for now I have rifles to keep
me busy and happy smelling powder smoke and Hoppe's #9...;-)
Semper Fi,
Wes
Pacific Precision makes a few bore reamers for us now and then, I
know our reamer maker deals with Dave now and then. I didn't know they
made the chamber reamer for Jeff out at Black Hills Ammo. Shouldve just
asked him the last time he was in. It's all about paying attention, eh..
Definitely building this thing now, if Jeff's got this worked out with
the military as far as ammo specs, and he's about 5 minutes from me, hoo
yeah. I'll give Dave a call when I get geared up for this project, I still
have to rip the 300 win mag barrel off of ol' 'Betty Nugs', she was a good
ol' gal, I'm gonna miss her. Hey, thanks a million for the info, made my
day, I can the light at the end of the tunnel now!!
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Now THATS whining! ;-)
ALL:
HAVE A HAPPY EASTER HOLIDAY WEEKEND WITH YOUR FAMILIES AND FRIENDS,
AND PLEASE BE CAREFUL ON THE HIGHWAYS AND BY-WAYS.
Even if you shoot a Fag Mag! hee-hee
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Andy got another call from a neighbor last night to come "take care
of" a woodchuck. He responded with his .223 loaded with 40 grain HPs. OSOK....the
neighbor gave him $5 for his trouble. Where was that kind of work when
I was 15?
I'll be picking up one of my .45s from the smith today. Brand new
Novak tritium sights and a trigger job....can't wait to wring it out this
weekend.
It looks like the ground is drying up enough to get on our new range
and hang some steel. If I can get the boy away from that female freind
of his long enough to help it will get done.
I've been giving the "Sniper Challenge" shoot a hard look. It seems
like a great time from what I've read. All shooting without the stalks,
KIMS or Target Detection exercises. I hear good things about it. Being
in October it's tough to get my spotter out of school for it especially
after missing days the month before for the "Rendezvous". Anybody from
here plan on attending?
Have a Good Friday.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
"Fag Mag" is this a San Francisco rifle? I am just old fashioned
and slow to change so I will stick with the 300 Win for now. With that
said if I was starting now I would go with the 6.5x284 instead. With Black
Hills ammo around you are certain to get great results. I just picked up
some of Black Hills 223 Rem 62 grain reloads and the stuff shoots like
match. It is also a pleasure to deal with a shooter who makes the stuff
and not a Corp. BoZo.
I would like to share with you a letter I got from the Accurate Rifle
yesterday. Well only a small part of it. In short the letter said that
Precision Shooting lost huge money on Tactical Shooter and the new magazine
is making money. They went on to say that the few tactical articles they
run are not going over well and they wont make the mistake of being a tactical
magazine again.
Dave I know you get told what is said on here so here it goes. SHAME
ON YOU! You had something you did not understand and never gave it a chance.
If you had run all tactical articles and not "Me and my jack knife were
hunting flys in the front room", you would have done well. You went after
the wrong advertisers and of course no sniper is going to buy a 1200.00
powder measure. Thats for Bench Rest Geeks. You could have secured Black
Hawk, Eagle, HxS Precision, US Optics McMillan and many others that sell
tactical equipment and done well. I can tell you the snipers buy lots of
gear just not Bench Rest crap.
Looks like you did OK on Mike Lau's book. Who the heck purchased
that, if it was not snipers?
I like many others do not and never will fit into the new/rehashed
magazine. You see I write about sniping not rubber band guns.
Now Flame away boys
Undude
Hoooyahhh! Mike...tell it like it is.
The PS guy is actually PC.
My opinion is that the end of TS was a self fullfilling prophecy.
I spoke with "Dave" once about ideas for TS and he was quite negative
about anything not directly related to rifles. He claimed he didn't want
articles on related equipment or tactic, then he'd run just such an article.
Go figure.
I'd love to see someone create a magazine to take over where TS left
off. Solid no BS articles about the craft without the commercial hype of
a G&A. I wonder if Bob Brown reads this board??? Pete Kokalis would
make a great editor. Mr. Dillon could be the art director. ;-)
out
JR..
And, also more than a few are switching to this combo, for ease of
reloading, and less expensive rounds.( From the 6.5x284)
And I'm told, that the ballistics, and capabilities are roughly eqivalent.
With much less recoil, and far cheaper components.
And on the short action.......what's yer take??.
I haven't crunched the numbers, or run the ballistics comparisons
as of yet, but sounds vellllyy interesting.
Two Shoes
I can see his side of it, and I think there were other issues.
When you have a cover photo of a five LE "Snipers" on a fire escape,
dressed in green wookie suits, and the building is RED BRICK... gimme'
a friggin break... that means you are running out of articles, and the
end is near.
A publisher has to have a lot of GOOD incoming articles in order
to run a magazine.
Advertizers LOVE people that spend money (on their stuff)... We're
dead beat, cheap skates... some of love the art (and a lot of those congregate
here on SC), but most tac shooters around the country own one rifle, one
scope (A Tabasco), don't reload, or if they do, bought the minimum kit,
and won't persue it further... That's it!
I guy misses a deer, WHOA MOMMA!!! a new scope, new rifle in a new
caliber, so new dies, new bullets, new powder for the bigger cases, yadda...
he just spent BIG money cuz he missed
On the other hand, a Tac shooter doesn't do well at a match, and
he just goes home, and comes back next time with the same stuff... an LE
shoots a 1.25" group at quals, no big deal... no new scope or rifle, no
new stuff at all.
We can't expect the publishers to cater to our needs for free...
and they don't make the money on subscriptions, they make it on advertizine.
I know... you disagree ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Now with TS gone we are given the occasional bone by AR to try and
keep us giving our money to them, with a promise that it may come back.
Me I am through, nothing to do with the new magazine. It is neither fish
or fowl. I predict it will be gone in less than tqwo years, Precision Shooting,
a great Magazine does the job AR is trying to do so why bother.
Dave you have ahd a winner with Precision Shooting. Bring back Tactical
Shooter and get the correct advertisers so it will make you some money.
The Accurate Rifle will die under the current direction.
On another note Peter K., would be a great writer in any gun magazine!
We disagree. The sniper companies are as busy as hell selling product.
How many rifles and scopes to do own yourself. Me I dont want to count
them. The sniper rifle is like the bass boat of the 80's. Many guys are
purchasing them for just fun and that means many items will be sold to
complete the packages. I look at who buys my slings. I sell them to people
from all walks of life and many countries. I dont even advertise other
than my website and word of mouth.
I am telling you people/shooters like gear and they will spend money
on good stuff. If it was like Dave put it and you have bought into, you
could walk into Chandlers place and he would beg you to buy something at
a reduced rate, to keep from going broke. Just call him or any of the good
builders and ask for an ETA on getting a rifle.
Ask Rod Ryan how his classes are going. He is always teaching these
days. Ask US Optics, Nightforce or any other sniper scope manufacture if
they have trouble selling scopes. They dont.
Blackhawk and Eagle are busy as hell making gear for the tactical
community. They seem to sell it as fast as they can make it.
Whos making the purchases if we are all to cheap to buy anything?
I teach guys that everytime I look at them they have something new
to show me. Holsters, vests, drag bags, temp gauges, cleaning equipment,
rifles, scopes or this or that device. This stuff sells well to snipers
and tactical guys. We just dont buy Bench rest crap!
Undude
To those who may have contacts with those in power at the publication,
has anyone asked if it could be a quarterly mag? And, if so how many articles
would be needed? And, could those on the site devote enough of their time
to author the necessary articles?
The reason I bring up these points is that if the magazine is for
those like most of us that frequent the site or have contacts with others
that could contribute, articles and advertisement, then maybe it could
be revived!
Just a thought...
I toyed with the idea of building one in a 6.5 when I looked at the
6.5x284 but I hated the idea of fire forming all the brass. I think it
would be very effecient and probably would approach velocities of the 6.5x284.
I believe Bill Shehane is building what he calls a "Short" 6.5x284
and its very close to the 243Imp case. I don't think they would work well
on the short action though because you would want to seat the bullet out
as far as possible to get all the case cap. that you could.
Mike..
I agree with what 'litos saying to a point, but we do buy and right
now tactical shooting is the rage. You have a lot of guys out there that
want to be "Snipers" or long range shooters and if you have something that
will make it easier for them you can sell it!!
Jeez Man... You're such a hard headed pain in the butt ;))
Lookie... a publisher/editor can only do what they are good at...
Dave Brennen is good at publishing rifle shooting magazines... and he is
responsible for what comes out of it.
The tactical field ISN'T about rifles and scopes... that's only a
part of it... and Dave Brennen isn't able to publish a magazine on tactics,
stalking, Tactical Pack reviews, cuz he has now way of knowing if the artical
is BS, or the real skinny... and you can't go on the "Reputation" of the
writer... as an editor, you must be able to over see the quality of the
magazine, you MUST be able to understand most of what's submitted, or you
will look bad (which is why his scope reviews are worthless)... so he stays
with rifles, and does very well.
OK... on to what you said.
>"The sniper companies are as busy as hell selling product. How many
rifles and scopes to do own yourself. Me, I don't want to count them."<
Neither do I... I really tried last year to get an inventory, and
write down all the serial numbers, and couldn't.
The companies that are good (and small) are too busy to worry about
advertizing... the little gun shops like TBA, Chandler's... these guys
are already behind... some for several YEARS... and they need to spend
$1000 a month on advertizing?? I don't think so... because that's just
$1000 a month of overhead that goes down the tube for advertizing a product
that they can't deliver for 18 months, and anyone that is willing to wait
18 months, already knows about them, and the newbee (who just saw the ad),
won't wait for even a few months... you see it on this site... guys don't
want to wait a few months for a Stealth, and that's only 700 bucks. It's
"I want my gun N-O-W".
>"The sniper rifle is like the bass boat of the 80's. Many guys are
purchasing them for just fun and that means many items will be sold to
complete the packages. I look at who buys my slings. I sell them to people
from all walks of life and many countries. I dont even advertise other
than my website and word of mouth."<
And that's the second problem... the internet has taken away the
need for small shops to buy advertizing in magazines... I'll bet you that
"WE" (Sniper Country), has sold (like, "Been responsible for") more Mildot
Masters, Slope Dopers, Certain Shooting slings (made by a grumpy UnDude;)...
and all kinds of other stuff, than all the adds these guys put in Tactical
Shooter PUT TOGETHER!!!
>"I am telling you people/shooters like gear and they will spend
money on good stuff. If it was like Dave put it and you have bought
And I'm telling you, that the guys that are willing to throw $4000
at a rifle, and wait for their kids to get out of college before they pick
it up, ALREADY KNOW about these custom builders... they don't need TS to
show them an add, and chandler's doesn't need to spend $1000 a month to
advertize to the "Choir"... it's already done for them.
>"Just call him or any of the good builders and ask for an ETA on
getting a rifle."<... that's right, and so why spend big bucks to advertize
to sell riffles you can't deliver... it just pisses people off, and wastes
the builders money.
>"Ask Rod Ryan how his classes are going. He is always teaching these
days."<
And ask his students "Where did you hear of this course?"
>"Ask US Optics, Nightforce or any other sniper scope manufacture
if they have trouble selling scopes. They dont."<
I'm gonna pull rank on you, because I have been running my own business
for over 30 years.
I advertize when things are slow... I haven't spent one cent on advertizing
in 8 years... not penny one. If I'm slow, I advertize, otherwize I got
better places for the money (like 50BMG goodies).
>"Blackhawk and Eagle are busy as hell making gear for the tactical
community. They seem to sell it as fast as they can make it."<
Which is why they don't have to spend money advertizing... they have
a "custom Department" HA!... I spoke to the custom Department last year,
(this is all true!!) and the lady said "I'm sorry, but we are 3 years behind,
and just got a new military contract, so I can't even take your order"...
this is a company that has to give Dae Brennen $1000 a month to not take
orders for 3 yers??
>"Whos making the purchases if we are all to cheap to buy anything?"<
The military, and a small cadre' of serious shooters... us bums...
but me, you, and maybe 2 thousand other serious shooters can't keep TS
alive.
>"I teach guys that everytime I look at them they have something
new to show me. Holsters, vests, drag bags, temp gauges, cleaning equipment,
rifles, scopes or this or that device. This stuff sells well to snipers
and tactical guys. We just don't buy benchrest crap!"<
And that is the problem... benchrest crap sells like water in the
desert... 200 guys show up at a match, and Joe Schmuck wins, and uses "Pablito
Dies"... and I'm friggin rich... I'll have 200 orders the next day, and
10,000 when the benchrest magazine publishes the match results... it is
this very kind of stuff that put Redding ON THE MAP... before they catered
to this crowd, they were dead, and in chapter 11.
Look Dude-ski... there are about 1000 to 2000 SERIOUS sniper/tactical
shooters in the country that are willing to lay out their own money for
a good kit... not just the scope/riffle, but the packs, and other junk...
Everything I want, I can find on the internet... through a business site,
or a chat board... it I'm gonna plunk down money for a magazine subscription,
I want GOOD articles, and then I'll look at the adds.
TS was killed mainly because the poor articles... they weren't just
poor, they were AWFUL.
If the articles were good, the readers would be there, then the advertizers
will be there.
He could have sold it, but to who... and (the great thing about capitalism)
if the market is there, capitalism will fill the vacuum, but it didn't,
cuz, except for me and thee (the collective :thee), it ain't there.
you can get more information on sniping, tactical matches, and the
rest of it, in two days of web surfin' that in reading two years of back
issues of TS...
This went way too ling... I quit.
'lito
When Dave brought out the magazine he should have known what was
needed to make it work. If you yourself lack the knowledge, which he admits,
you hire someone that has the knowledge. That is the sign of someone truly
good at his job as a leader. You know my chief would never tell me what
made a good sniper or sniper rifle. He accepts I know and trusts me. That
is the way of all things. The ones that do well hire folks to do what is
needed, so the poor Dave did not know it was poop thing fails for me. He
should have hired someone that knows the tactical field for editing.
While we are on that, why does he still have someone who you say
does not know optics writting about them? That goes back to the original
problem. By the way I do not read either AR or Precision Shooting anymore
so I do not know who you are talking about. I make no judgement of the
ones writting now. I lost it over what is the best Fly Shooter thing. I
am certain that one attracted many more readers than what the NightHawk
device will do for your sniper or varmint rifle. NOT! Lets face it the
new mag will not survive. It had a chance under TS but not now. I also
agree that Dave has the right to do whatever he wants with his magazine,
but when he blames use for his failings I stand up and say. Sorry you got
no clothes on.
I completely agree on Sniper Country. This is our place and you will
see me sending more and more in on what I get to play with. Someone asked
why I didn't try and get a Tactical Magazine going. I thought about it
an dnow I get it. Because Sniper Country is an on line Sniper Magazine.
We share daily what is good, bad and learn as we go. For that I am thankful.
Articles I am working on for SC are:
Just need some time to polish them.
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
It's so good to see things back to normal........
Lito', & the Undude.......in their Usual prime form!!.
Pat, yeah I can see that,but seems the 6.5x.308 would be a better
go.....bigger, booolets, and heavier, better barrel life.
........3800 FPS.............SMOKIN'!!!!!!!!
Change the barrel every 500 rounds???((:
Mike, the McHale, ( never seen one), but in up close looksee appeared
the A2, and the A4 were very similar.
Can't figure out why the Corps decided to go with that forend though.
Kevin, (Andy's Dad), I am still curious on your post about the IMI
brass.
Two Shoes
Never hear from Gooch anymore......?
I picked up the .45 at noon. SWEET!
out
>"Pablito/Paul, dude you are about as good at telling me you think
I am wrong, without pissing me off, as anyone I have met. I see your point
but disagree."<
And you are the most likeable bum that I disagree with... but look
at it this way.
I'm not defending Dave Brennen... I think he screwed up big time.
They don't publish to the guys that really drive fast, they publish
to the yuppies that have fast cars that they drive to work, and these guys
have fantasies about running from the troopers in a radar stop, but don't
have the stones.
Even the articles in PS often cross the line, and get ankle deep
in BS... but it's nicely worded BS, and the wannabee choir, just eats it
up... and (unlike the websites) there's no calling them on their crap...
it gets published, and goes down in history as "The TRUTH!".
I have called Dave, and even been to his office, but he has a deaf
ear when it comes to major errors in his magazine.
A good example is an article I just read from the Jan 2001 PS:
http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/Jan2001.htm
... written be the same benchrester that does their optical reviews.
It was a combination of "I went to a Tactical Match in Texas, cuz
I happen to be the only PS writer that lives in Texas... and by the way,
I rate it an 85, cuz it has a good beat, and you can dance to it"
It was filler, and none of Dave's readers will know the difference.
When I said you were wrong, I didn't mean that Dave was right...
he did what you said... he started a publication on "Sniper stuff" thinking
it was about accurate "Green riffles", and had no idea that the riffles
were about 20-ish% of it... then he didn't get people that knew the craft
to edit, and guide it, and he thought that the same "Gee wizz" stiff that
worked for PS would work for TS... but the difference is this...
PS caters to the same "white wine" shooters that the car magazines
do... and they don't get dirty shooting, just as they don't outrun troopers
from speed traps in their Porches.
TS readers drink beer, and outrun speed traps in cars that look like
shit, and run like rum-runners, and out shoot them with riffles that look
like crap, and shoot like crazy, and do it from the dirt and brair patches,
without excuses.
Dave never understood that, and thought that articles like the one
above, would "smoke and mirror" us... and we walked.
>"While we are on that, why does he still have someone who you say
does not know optics writting about them?"<
Because there are many people that want to find something/someone
to follow... they are born sheeple. they don't try something new, or challenge
the known, they sit back and wait for others to tell them "What's cool",
and then they throw their master cards at it.
>"I completely agree on Sniper Country. Yup... me too.
'lito
I've reloaded the cases three times. The last batch that came home
with me from Badlands last month I tossed in the vibrator and put through
my Wilson benchrest neck sizing die. I looked at some of the cases and
there was a ring showing on the outside of the case above the expected
location which is usually just north of the web. I used a dental explorer
and searched for any cracking internally and found none. I don't know what's
going on. It wasn't every case. The ring is a lighter brass color and doesn't
show any separation (the explorer doesn't catch inside or out).
Other than the reduced powder capacity I have no complaints about
the brass. When doing the neck turning the chips came off in a way that
you'd expect from a good annealed alloy.
I assure you that if I get a case head separation I'll let the world
know. I'll also DX the whole lot after the next firing.
I know Lapua is the best but it is mucho denaro.
Someone mentioned that Winchester brass is good except for case concentricity.
When I hit the lotto I'll just get a pallet of Black Hills and be
done with all this reloading stuff. I guess I'll have to buy a ticket first.
out
Kevin..
He is suppose to be changing the format this year so it isn't such
a ball buster. He is also going to break it into two classes Military &
LE and then civilians. The military wanted to keep it like it was and the
civilians wanted it a tad "Milder".
There were several articles in TS about the match if you wanted to
find out more about it. I could also send you Daves e.mail address if you
were interested, he's a nice guy to talk to.
It will get a ring ( bright spot) above the case head approx 1/4"
up.......
There was no evidence whatsoever of immanent C H S.
What I found is the "Bright", spot is where the solid part of the
case HEAD, stops the resizing process, and leaves the tell tale ring, just
above it, on the actual case body.
Case head sep, would occur if you had trimmed bookoos off after each
firing, to get back to length.
If this is / was not the case, then I suspect you have run into the
same anomaly that I did.
Let me know if you see incipient REAL signs of CHS....I would like
to know.....
For 16.5 cents a case, it's the best bargain out there.
On the Win brass..........don't know where you heard the bad report
on concentricity, it's the BEST American brass I have found.....
Black Hills uses it, or at least the last I checked.
In order of quality, this is my experience....Lapua, Norma, Win,
IMI Match,Rem, Fed GM....ain't even in the ballgame, as far as concentricity..I
have consistently found it to be the WORST.
Fed GM........after initial factory firing, you can loose up to 10-15%
of the cases because of soft brass.
Outside of "rolling your own ", from the get go, is buy BH, and shoot
it through your tube, and then it's already a match for your chamber.
Thanks for the replies guy's..........
Anybody heard from Castillo???((((:
Two Shoes
1) I got tired of paying for two copies of the same article in both
T-S and P-S in supposedly different magazines.
2) WTF articles on hunting flys with a jack knife, and "old guard"
articles of NO F@#$%KING relevance to what we wanted.
3) that bullshit job done with pasting your article and Chandlers
in a "spank the upstart" style.
4) Articles that had that "suprise" tie in with the advertisers products
ofta rant
hehehehehe, Bolt off for 3 days, hhhhoooooaaaahhhhh!!!!!
After I posted the bit about sun-shades for Loopy LR M1's & M3"s
on Wednesday I received the following note from Dick at Premier Reticles:
Doc,
We have been doing the same modification for more than a year. $35
if you
Leupold got the idea from us.
Dick
Premier Reticles, Ltd.
I don't work for them; but I had them put mil-dots in an old 6.5x20
for me a couple of years back, and they do very fast and excellent work.
Off to town for TGIF at the local Moose lodge!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
Well I am proud to announce today that I have updated Jerry Rice's
website. Nor-Cal Precision now
has a new look, a lot better graphics, and an improved layout.
Please pass the word around a little bit and feel free to post the
URL to any other sites or boards: http://www.norcalprecision.com.
Of course now that Mike
'Undudeski' Miller has seen the new NCP site, I am getting 'ME TOO!'
notes in the mail :-) I promise Mike - yours is going to be the next total
site overhaul I do... (note how I did not say 'new construction' ;-) See
ya this next weekend Mike... I'll update your site with the new goodies
sometime after that...
Anyway folks have a look at the new Nor-Cal
Precision site and let me know what you think.
Charles - (used to be aka JT)
<tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Cause I can't afford one of Jerry's rifles and when I see one it
only makes me cry big Hoppe's #9 tears.
If he gets that 6.5x284 reamer I am going to contact the Devil himself
and sell my soul for one.
Burlap eating Sniper Mutt for sale, Bolt out!
KEN?????
Now look, not ALL of the GREAT web gurus are named KEN! (Hmm dont
know if I'd consider myself either great or a guru...)
Still in all Boltster, if Jery DOES get that reamer and you DO buy
from him you will likely be a really happy camper. I have yet to meet ANYONE
Jerry has dealt with who was not VERY pleased indeed.
Giggle.... Ken... sheesh!
Charles - NOT Ken (not that
Ken's a bad dude at all :-) <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
ImBareAssed Bolt, out!
I don't make barrels on Friday the 13th, friends.
Pat(mrbullet):
I am sold on the 6.5 x 284, believe me. I've been waitin' and waitin'
for some finished specs, and a good reamer maker to come out with a chamber
reamer. I should slap myself, I should have talked to Dave at Pacific LAST
year to see how it was coming along. I could have waited on the 7-08 and
have built a 6.5 x 284 for free!! Oh well. What else do I have to spend
money on, eh?? I tell you one thing, when this rifle is complete, don't
have a timeframe yet, hoping by the Varmint Hunters shoot at the latest,
I'll bring it to Pierre and have you give it a once over. I'd let Shawn
give it a workout at D&L if I can get my shit together by then, and
if Janet doesn't go for building him one. I'm looking at making a long
barrel pat, 28 to 30 inches, and I AM building it on a long action. I'll
need to get a bolt, which we make, the 284 rim is smaller than the Win
Mag, so I don't think that will be a problem. If I can catch the bolt early
enough in the process, I may be able to put a different extractor, sako
perhaps, in the bolt. Dirty secret, I don't like our extractors. If anyone
will be in need of a Remington 700 magnum bolt with sako extractor I'll
give it to ya, unless I decide to make a take down in the future. I tell
you what, when I complete this project, there won't be a diamond I can't
cut with the wooody I'm gonna have!!!!
By the way, I'm taking Gale Mcmillan's advice on the JB bore paste,
we will probably void any warranty if this abrasive is used. Pat, if you
want, I'll let you know how, in my twisted mind, to properly use this stuff.
Stay away from the patches, very uneven, will take the edges off your lands.
Use a lead cast, or lap, you'll save some years off your rifle.
Find a cleaning rod that you can unscrew at the orbital handle. Remove
the jag and grind the end of the rod to a point. Wrap a flannel patch around
the rod so it fits the bore about 3 inches from the point and push thru
the bore from chamber end until you can just see the point when looking
down the muzzle. Pour hot molten lead down the bore until filled, let cool
for about 15-20 seconds, then push the cast out of the bore. Remove the
patch from the rod, and file both ends of the cast(lap) until the lap will
pass thru the bore with ease. Spread some of that JB's on the lap, and
pull the lap thru the bore, muzzle to chamber. Clean barrel, check for
fouling, if it needs more work, unscrew handle from rod, and pull another
pass thru. This method should protect the sides and corners of the lands
from wearing unevenly from cleaning, as the lap will follow the helix of
the twist, and it would not be as harmful as a 'real' lap-job since you
are not pushing and pulling the abrasive thru, which wears the lands at
the ends of the barrel, and not nearly as harmful as FIRE LAPPING (MR Ben
Siebert!!)
MikeM:
Tell us how you really feel about the replacement TS mag.... heheh...
that's writers and publishers for you, I gotta deal with Jon Sundra in
the shop now and then, the pedofile or whatever you call the wine drinkers
LOL, and he writes well and is knowledgeable of what he does, but all of
'em are corrupt. Biased.
Benchrest shooters vs Tactical shooters:
No question Tactical shooters will buy more gear. Benchresters (no
flame meant to any on this site) are the cheapest sob's out on the range.
They basically want you to GIVE them barrels and components, they won't
buy shit. Tony Boyer, acclaimed benchrester, uses Shilen barrels exclusively.
Why? Probably because Shilen sponsors him and supplies him with all the
barrels he needs. Tony could outshoot any of us on any day with any barrel,
but he's cheap. It's a good racket, that benchrest club. Kind of why we've
shyed away from the benchrest market. Snipers and tacticians pay. Plus
they buy cooler shit than the Benchresters. NV and ghillies and such.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Seeking Testimonials:
I am actively looking for those of you who have bought a rifle from
Jerry Rice at Nor-Cal Precision and who would be willing to type out a
few words (or a great many for that matter) on his behalf.
If you are such a customer and would like to write a testimonial
to be posted on the Nor-Cal site please contact me at: tenarius@memorableplaces.com
I'd sure appreciate being able to add a section like this to his site.
(Thanks to Mike Miller of Tactical Intervention Specialists who already
has gotten onboard!)
Seeking Opinions:
What would you most like to see on a site devoted to new 1911 type
handguns. Mail em to me. (guess my next project)
Seeking Bolt: (or somehting like that)
Gee Bolt, no worries!
I have rarely been confused with COMPETENT people so this is a nice
change for me. I can think of a lot worse people than Ken to be confused
with.
JT: on a 1911 site? I'll pass. Anything I say can and will be used
against me in future bashing sessions.
On the good side, the 50 rounds I ran through the Sproingfeld 1911
yesterday, and the 50 today, both ran without a hiccup. Same ammo as before,
same shooter, same mag, same EVERYTHING. The only difference was that now
I've got right at half a case through it. Could it be that it just needed
breaking in? According to Sproingfeld, the only thing they did was adjust
the extractor, although the slide-to-frame fit was NOTICABLY different
when I got it back. Different wear pattern on the rails also. I *THINK*
it's a different slide, although it could have been "squeezed" and the
rear sight restaked ('cause the rear sight stake mark is now different).
Anyway, I'm working all weekend, so I'll run another 100 through it before
Monday. Interesting stuff. If it's suddenly developed an apetite for truncated
cones, it might be a keeper. I'm taking NO bets though.
I just stumbled onto your duty roster recently, in response to pointers
on other boards from pablito and mike brown. I've been to the other areas
in SC before but figured the duty roster was just chin music. Was I ever
wrong. Lots of worthwhile things being passed around.
hey pablito. I like your writing style. You don't manufacture, ah,
reamers, now do you?
doug
Am I the only one here that thinks that TAR is an improvement over
TS?
It's not that I would'nt mind a purely tactical publicaton of uniformly
high quality, or that AR is perfect. Its just that I would rather have
a more varied selection of rifle articles than a selection of BAD tactical
articles, which is what TS had devolved into by the time it went KAPUT.
Two things, first is that Speer publishes a load in their reloading
manual for 50grn bullets using H322 that in my opinion seems just a bit
too hot, even their published starting load(24.0grns) seems pretty warm
and their maximum load of 26.0grns I wouldn't dare try to approach after
seeing what my starting loads were running through my gasguns and the loads
Speer is stating were supposedly developed using IMI brass. Seems to me
that Speer is usually kinda conservative with their loads that they publish
but this one load doesn't seem to follow that pattern, looking into the
Hogdon reference manual would seem to confirm that Speer is a bit on the
high side this time.
Second, shooting for 500 yards on ground squirrel is a real pain
in the butt, I needs just a slightly bigger target(prarrie dog perhaps)
so that at my current skill level I can start making hits(or get better,
I know, I intend to). There was a slight breeze and those doofy little
commie rats weren't behaving very nicely, they wouldn't be a good varmint
and stand close enough to the 500 yard steel plates so that I could use
the exact same elevation or comeups on them as I used for the steel. I
gave several squirrels a darned good edumacation when I planted the bullet
right underneath their furry bellies or kicked dirt in their face, I really
made some of those things leap in the air! Shooting on the steel right
at 500 yards I was spot on the money with no problems(needed about 10MOA
from a 100yd zero) but once I got off the steel and the range began to
vary a bit(they always seemed to be 20-40 yards in front or 20-40 yards
behind the steel plate range), all the little differences were just enough
so that I was unluckily missing instead of luckily hitting. Still though
I wasn't missing by much, not much at all. At that range those little suckers
are definitely subMOA with one respect or another depending on if they
are standing or crawling. Often times the scope just needed another click
or two so that the round would have gone right through the little vermin,
my ability to hold the rifle accurately so that I shoot small groups is
not the problem, it's matching the scope to the range so that it is within
the vitals of that subMOA vermin. My skills on the scope were often good
enough to get me within a mere fraction of an inch while at other times
I'd blow it and the scope would be off by 3-4 inches, they just needed
to be BETTER! Frustrating little things they are!
I'm gonna have to start dropping some trail mix around the steel
plates out there so that when I get back to my rifle all the squirrels
will be playing "ring around the rosie" right by the steel!
Finally to work out some of the built up frustration I turned my
efforts to the closer ranged squirrels, I bagged about 8 of the things
at ranges from 260-350 yards. Might have just barely winged one at 400
yards but it was too hard to tell, the squirrel slowly slid down into some
deep grass where he either crawled into a hole to never come out again
while we were there or he died on the back side of the grass never to crawl
out again, I couldn't walk out to confirm it though.
Still loving this not so little mousegun/gasgun "squirrel rifle from
hell", now I just gotta clean the silly thing and take care of my sunburns.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Interesting posts, of late, on the 6.5 X .284. Let me take them in
order:
6.5 x 08 Improved vs 6.5 X 284. Which to pick. Seems some folks out
there have to re-invent the wheel. Not a cheap shot, just an observation
from a grouchy old fart.
First, improving the '08 case will get you about halfway to the powder
charge the 6.5 x .284 version will hold. Remember, you have '06 case capacity
here. Not so with the '08. I'd like to run some side by side tests. No
one mentioned the AOL of the loads or anything about that type of comparison.
Just that they were getting "6.5 x .284" ballistics. To many variables
here to make solid comparisons.
I stump for the 6.5 X .284 for the reason I picked it. It's factory
supported (Black Hills Ammunition) and Norma is making the brass. Sure,
it's spendy, but do you really want to fire form your brass for a tactical
rifle? Sorry, I want the availability of FACTORY NEW ammunition. Of course
there is the possible litigation issues facing use of reloads for tactical
operations. Anyone out there shooting handloads? Thought not.
Undudeski, you may want to comment on that last. Though it should
go without saying...
JR...don't sell your soul for a mere reamer or rifle. Pick the 6.5
X .284 and drive on...I doubt you'll be looking back. If you are, it's
only to check on the competiion...;-)
I've gone on record as saying I'm not a fan of the big magnums. The
6.5 x .284 will do everything it's bigger brethren will do with less muss
and fuss.
There are really only two other cartridges to consider, IMHO. The
.308 (of course) and the .300 Winchester Magnum. Both are developed, have
a variety of rounds available, and are factory supported.
That having been said my second choice to the 6.5 x .284 was the
7 x 61MM Sharpe and Hart!
All for now...what am I doing up so late posting you guys?
As Bolt said; Quiet...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Two Shoes...
doug...
You secret 50BMG loaders out there (and you know who you are ;),
I've been raggin forster about a power case trimmer for a few weeks, and
just got a prototype based on their power trimmer for "little boolets"..
looks good, smells good, must be good... will be about $60/$70... one fifth
the price of the Gracey. They say it'll be out in about 4 months. Shoud
be able to do 300 to 400 cases an hour.
Tom Simpson...
Ugly (gun ;)...
Nom de' Plume (aka Wes)...
HA!... But you'd be amazed at the number of guys out there, shooting
"Mexican Match" ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I ain't no great web guru either. I keep the underlying stuff running.
On our end, Sandy's the one that does the web magic.
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Go longer than that and the target will be gone or conditions will
change. That is real world, not the varible math world. Enough on this.
Tom, you like the new magazine better. Great. The problems with the
old magazine are simple, Managing. Most of the guys that wrote for TS were
not experts at writting. Hell I started by accident and will never think
of myself as someone published. Spent too much time playing football and
not enough time in class for that. Many guys were like me but I found the
real problem the articles from the ones that wrote every month about nothing
of tactical value. The magazine could have been a tactical magazine but
they tried to do it all. You want a magazine that gives you pretty pages
of multi purose go with Guns and Ammo. I doubt TAR will dethrone GxA. By
the way my dad called multipurpose "Good for nothing" I tend to agree.
On sniper calibers. It has to be available over the counter without
fire forming other other tricks to work.
Enough of my crap do what you want.
Went back & forth with a Peter Jones (pj@camouflage.com) on the
Tenebrex ARD's. He claims that if you don't like the image with the thin
ARD they make for Leupold, you won't like the image with any of their products.
Also asked under what conditions the problem occurred. Send them your info
guys!
Wonder if this is a case of clueless dude in customer service or
a truly honest company that's saying everything they make is a POS?
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
Would you accept something in between???
The big ARD's WORK for the M22s with the pink anti-laser filters,
and the MK4's with the same pink anti-laser filters... these filters NEED
ARDs... or they advertise "Shoot the dummy with the rank to have M22s,
or the sniper, "right now"!... and for that, they are worth the price in
image quality.
If you want them for stalkin', don't waste your money... they won't
help, you need better camo than that.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I was just looking over my old TS articles the other day. I came
across a Norm and Rocky Chandler article about trigger guards.
The Chandler's are saying, in a nut shell, get rid of the 2oz Remington
trigger guard, get one of theirs or one like it that is built for the field
(the Chandler's trigger guard is 8.4 ounces).
My question to all on this site, and those especially who have worked
in this military occupation, have you ever had a trigger guard brake or
get damaged? If so, then to what degree and how so? Do you think that the
article is accurate or fair in what it says?
I spoke to Jerry about this too. His comment in general was that
he never saw a trigger guard that broke before.
Another note about the trigger guard, they are saying that the Remington
trigger guard is built poorly due to the fact that the base can be release
due to the overly exposed release mechanism. Any feed back, opinion would
be appreciated.
The article from TS is August 2000, starting page is 44.
One other thing, I found something of interest about a sniper rifle
weight from the above article. On page 45, third column, fourth line from
the bottom, "Until it reaches eighteen pounds -- a sniper rifle is not
overly heavy, and we should not sacrifice accuracy or durability for a
comfortable carry."
Hmmm, not to stir up the M40A3 debate again, what do you think?
Curious George out...
Darren...
For myself I would like to see something on A)Starting up/What rifle/scope
combo. Call it a beginners set. Then what next ? I mean what is the price
break between a Chandler and a Pac-Nor ? B)Scopes Same thing...start w/Leuppy
Vari-X III Tac and next thing ya know it's a "U-Still-Owe", snicker...come
on, isn't there an intermediate scope out there and if so what/why ? C)
Barrels... pro's & con's of who & why.Like, is a 5R better than
a Blackstar? Last but not least (at least for me) Insertion, CCM (cross-country
movement) and land navigation devices. I know, GPS but what if you don't
have one ? What is the current "Best" compass out there ?
I really have appreciated the posts about the 155s and the IMI brass.
Now I know where I went wrong...almost. Back to the loading room to try
it again.
Out Here !!
6.5x284 guys........I think that the 'fag mag' is truly a fine development,
but I'd like to stick my .02 into the fray, and toss in my sense of reality.
OK - the .260 is a bit light in the boiler room for real long-range shooting,
and like Mike M. says - nobody wants to fireform all of their brass, so
the .260 IMP is OUT. As long as I can't get decent domestic brass (fully
formed) for the 6.5x284, I'll never consider investing in that wildcat.
Norma brass? Some of you old farts (like me) remember the problem with
Norma, and their revolving US distributors. Do you really want to join
the 'mail-order-of-the-month' club? Black Hills Ammo is the only thing
that this cartridge has going for it at this time, and although they make
a very high-quality product, they can't support it alone. It takes real
mass-merchandising, the kind that they're not able to do right now. Which
brings me to my prediction. Don't ask Winchester to legitimize the 6.5x284,
because they have a new case waiting in the wings - the parent is the .300WSM!
Before a few of you say "Oh no - a mangleum" or "Magnumitis" just forget
that dirty word for a moment. Have any of you SEEN this new cartridge yet?
If yer singin' the praises of the .284 case ya better take a good lool
at this one. Rumor (from the USRAC rep.) says that they'll necking up and
down in the near future. A .264WSM? And no funny sounds from you guys,
either! The .264Win Mag is a fine cartridge, if you understand it, and
use it for its intended purposes, right 'lito? It's just suffered from
ignorant users and bullshit 'gunwriters' in the past. One more thing before
I quit this rant - the .338RUM will eventually bury the .338 Lupua, at
least in the USA, and for much of the above reasons (and I'm no big fan
of Remington). And Boomhauer - not ALL Springfields are junk.
in Gale's simple yet eloquent explanation on JB bore paste:
'Picture a patch riding along the barrel with abrasive on it. It
is removing material at a given rate. It comes to a place where there is
copper fouling and it rides over it cutting the same amount that it was
cutting before it came to the copper. You continue until all the fouling
is gone and what have you done? You have put the same contour in the barrel
steel that was in it when it was metal fouled'
Don't kid yourself guys, if you are using an abrasive in the bore
it is removing metal. Which includes bore and leade. The match barrelmakers
go to great extremes to provide the bore with a finish that is polished
and clean. Using JB will destroy the finish left by the barrelmaker. Copper
remover (foul out) and a brass brush is my recommendation.
'nuff said
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Several folks have asked me the difference between the three, if
any.
First, there are minor differences between the spec. for the .308
and the 7.62 X 51MM(NATO). For our purposes let's consider them identical.
The difference in between the .308 and the 6.5/08 is not over all
length or length to the base of the shoulder. They are identical in those
dimensions. Both sport a 20 degree shoulder, as well.
The .308 is 1.5598" to the base of the shoulder, as is the 6.5/08.
However, shoulder to the base of neck dimension is .2143" for the
6.5/08 and a shorter .1518" for the .308. Conversely, the neck length for
the 6.5/08 is a short .2409" and the .308 is .3034".
Does this make a difference? Depends on which school of thought (long
vs. short necks) you belong to...
Anyone out there with a .260 Remington drawing that can compare the
6.5 dimensions to the .260 and let us know if we have lost our minds and
there is a difference?
Personally, why mess with the difference, IF ANY, when you can have
the 6.5 X .284...;-)
Semper Fi,
Wes
http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro/intro.htm
Alan...
'lito
I just have one more thing to say about your 'JB' post to me.
You said:
>I've caught that too much is a bad thing, but it's still hard for
me to believe someone could grind away enough barrel to actually make a
difference with the stuff.
Do you realize the tolerances that I strive to keep on the bore and
groove dimensions? hahahh... I hold a +0.0003", that's three tenths, 3
ten thousandths of an inch on the bore diameter, and a -0.0003" on the
groove diameter. That would not be considered a cat hair, I've measured
'em, they run 0.008" or more, depending on the cat. Since we are talking
about a circular surface, you could actually say my tolerances are 0.00015"
per side. I keep these tolerance TO make a difference in the performance
of the barrel and rifle. When anything abrasive is pushed thru the barrel
after it leaves me and I hear about it, I throw up my hands and ask myself
'why in the hell do I bother with these tight dimensions!!' Use that JB
to polish your pet rock or something.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Okay dude - just so you'd quichyer whinin' I put a link to your write
up on the main page - so that newbies and old salts can get a quick intro/refresher
course...
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Maybe full up,loaded, with suppressor and Simrad. Otherwise I think
the good colonel spent too much time on the rifle team on the east coast
and not enough time in the grunt units out at Pendleton or Bridgeport.
I like what Col Chandler writes, I had his books signed when I was stationed
at Lejeune. I think he's done good things for the USMC snipers. But he's
a commissioned officer, and as such I really don't think he has an operator's
view of the matter. Do we want to go the opposite extreme and have rifles
that weigh nothing? No, a solid rifle(perhaps 12.5-14.5lbs) adds stability
when you're huffing and puffing because you just humped up a hill with
100+lbs of crap. But I'd rather have a 13.5lbs rifle and an extra 3qts
of water, than a 18.5lb rifle. I'm going to shoot them equally well. I
don't think there's going to be any problems with lack of durability on
a 13.5lb rifle. There is no good reason to add weight just for weight's
sake.
Those people who think that the 260Rem(6.5-08) doesn't have the snot
for 1000yds had better talk to Boots Obermeyer, as he regularly kicks everybody's
ass with one. They are better than the 308 that's for sure, and no one
seems to have problems with that cartridge at 1000yds. Is it a 6.5-284?
No, but it'll surely do the job if you will. Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
I have a great deal of respect for Norm Chandler and Company. One
thing I am sure of is that they do whatever they can to build the best
rifle they know how using the best materials and craftsmanship available,
and they belive what they do in order to achieve that end is nesicery.
However, I do wonder sometimes if they are not takibg their good ideas
and carrying them a bit too far. As a for-instance, most everybody else
in the world gets by using one of several known-good bedding compounds,
like Devcon Aluminum, Bisonite, or perhaps the newer Brownells Steel Bed.
I was a Devcon Aluminum man for many years but have more recently become
enamored with MarineTex. But what do the Chandlers use? Devcon Titianium,
the most expendive crap you can get, and which I can see no advantage in
using for this application (unless you plan to low-crawl through an acid
vat or something). I have been meaning to ask him the why of this, but
havent seen him in a couple of years. Perhaps he has a great reason.
In the same vein, I have to wonder if I realy, realy have to tie
up half a pound of mass and several hundred dollars of hard-to-come-by
moolah to solve the bottom metal problem. Yes, I am aware that the can
crack out or otherwise fail when you apply the nominal 65 inch-lbs of torque.
Every time I torque mine, I get nervous.
I am one of those sad souls that got hung with a 700 PS DM gun, and
me and that cheesy-ass magazine arrangement do not get along all that well.
So, I intend at some point to kill both of these birds with one stone,
hopefully the next time I tear the gun down for some reason. The trigger
guard is to be ditched and replaced by a $15 steel ADL replacement guard
from Brownells. The front is taken care of by glassing in a lathe-turned
escuchion made from steel. That leaves the magazine to be taken care of.
I happen to have a couple of damaged M14 mag tubes (a home-grown demil
job involving a pickax) hanging around that could be cut down to 8 rounds
or so. One of these could be fitted to the rifle and attached semi-permanently
(lots easier than cutting the gun up to work with unmodified M14 mags).
I have to be able to do better work than those monkeys up in Ilion.
Weight:
Um, 10-12 pounds sans optics and assessories seems plenty heavy enough
to me, all things considered. A 700 PSS is in this range and hangs well
offhand and is still reasonably quick for quick stuff. I really wonder
about going much heavier than that. IMHO, of course.
JB:
I like the stuff, but then I do not own a superspecialpremium barrel
with tolerances in the millimicron range, either. I have this Douglas Airgauged
blank sitting on the shelf here, does that count? :-) What I have to work
with right now is the freakin' Remington OEM tube on the 700 PSS, which
gets the hell JB'd out of it every time it is shot. The alternative approaches
to cleaning I have tried would take over a week to complete, and that tube
could stand some polishing anyway, let me tell 'ya... :-)
From what I gather, the really nice tubes usually clean up so easily
that only someone too impatient to be a sniper to begin with would want
to rush the process further.
Most intriguing of all: the new FN (aka Winchester) sniper rifle
with chrome bore. I like these guys way of thinking.
UnDude:
By way of clarification, I like TAR better than TS as it was, not
as it could have been. A good, `00% tactical mag would be nice, but it
takes more than a pretty color cover to make that happen. Gotta have writers
writing about stuff that the custmer cares about, and that was not happening.
Truthfully, I never thought that TS would fly from the outset, given both
the limited scope and nature of the market. I used to work in the retail
gun trade, and, frankly, folks such as those that inhabit this site make
lousy customers for anybody but a specialized business. You (we) typicaly
buy a few things either one at a time or in large volumes and usually sniff
out the one or two cheapest sources for it on the planet, bypassing the
higher markup outlets. Those handfull of sources cannot support a magazine,
particulary when you factor the impact of the web and this site into the
equasion. I already have Sinclair, Brownells, O.K. Webber, all those peole
bookmarked. Ii I did not, then twenty people here will let me know within
an hour of posting a request. Whats an ad in TS got left to tell me at
this point?
-Tom
I was looking into buying a steel floorplate for my M24 clone, but
was scared off by the $300 or so pricetag. I just bought one of John Baier's
floorplates. Very nice, and at $140 each, I can buy two. He can be found
at Tactical Stocks and Supplies: http://64.226.176.47/
I just shot my first 3 gun competition today... boy do I need some
work.
Tim
AMEN KEN!
A couple trips from the S/M tower to the slag pile, barn, and movers
range, was all it took for me to have a massive reality check.
The 700LTR/M-3 rig Team Markwell/Hanson had looked pretty good after
finishing the stalk and stress events. I still am trying to figure out
how "Chainsaw" got that M-Fuddy.308Towed to the top???????????
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
I proposed a lighter SWS a few months ago and go flamed to a extra
well done condition.
Might there be a change in the weather here in Sniper Country?
Off to shoot Sporting Clays with the boy.
Out.
Just got three more firesticks "for the kids" yesterday, when it
rains it pours at the peteR home. Bet my ammo bills go up this summer............
Once again have a safe and Happy Easter!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Is there anything special (brittleness, etc.) I need to know about
tapping the stock? Besides not drilling into the barrel? :-)))
And a Happy Easter or Passover or Whatever to everyone!
Moe
JB: Dunno on this one. Geoff recommends JB or Iosso, and he's good
enough to know if he's screwing something up. You gotta be doing SOMETHING
right to be on the Palma 20 for 3 years! Here's my take on it, let me know
if I'm off base. Back when our currency was based in precious metals, and
pennies were copper, you could rub one long enough to get some color on
your thumb. Not enough to polish the penny per-se, but several parts per
billion/few parts per million. Isn't that the sa
Arlen Raton ?, FL, USA
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 00:09:25 (ZULU) (your host
address: 66.27.232.201)
Ar-10 Steve in Seatle -
Michigan, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 01:49:34 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.4.252.150)
Ar-10 Steve in Seatle -
Michigan, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 02:00:03 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.4.252.150)
Incoming for Patron 'Lito!!! (HA!)
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 02:01:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.218)
Don't buy LEE dies ******************
I had one, couldn't get a 3" group from my rice rifle - my buddies
reloads can go into .25" - he has a RCBS with Redding dies.
Canada - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 02:43:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.71.223.140)
Titan - can'T find my mic
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 02:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.71.223.140)
"Lito' about that Rosie poll, funny stuff. Yesterday I while cruising
the AR15.com forums I watched as the gasgunners bumped that poll from 60%
for no restrictions on gun ownership to well above 80% for no restrictions
on gun ownership. That confirmed it for me, those guys have nothing else
to do during the day other than press a "submit" button several hundred
times so that they can crush a poll. No biggie though, still makes me laugh
my butt off."
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 03:47:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.197.78)
"Moe: thanks for the heads-up on the Levang. I'm guessing I'll pass
for now on it....Don't know about the utility of a flash hider anyway."
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 03:53:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.197.78)
'Lito
Clearwater its finally raining!!!`, FL, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001
at 04:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.204.151)
I'll bet that 77gn 5.56 ammo comes in at 2.250 or damn close to
it, since this is mag length for some Colt mags. Other mags normally come
in at 2.260. I load all my ammo to 2.255 OAL, but I shoot 75gn Hornady
BTHP's. Same difference. Semper Fidelis..Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 04:05:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.4.253.164)
'Lito
Clearwater its finally raining!!!`, FL, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001
at 04:15:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.204.151)
Sorry for the double tap. I finally figured out that when Netscape
asksif you want to repost form data, you should answer "No"!
Clearwater, FL, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 04:17:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.92.204.151)
Bill0294...
Damn Man... you know how to make a guy's day (or night, it's 2:00
AM).
Very clever idea on the push punch...
... and I'll take double taps with that kind of good news, anyday
:))))
Get back to me tomorrow, second what Bill0294 said, and I'll start
pourin' powder (HA! that 50 cal powder is like hamster pellets! ;).
You should give hornady dies a second chance. I felt the way you
do, the dies of years ago were awful... but I'm going to get some more.
They are really well made, and where can you get a set of very well designed,
and very well made dies, with a sliding sleve seater, for $22 bucks...
and their customer service is way up.
... nite, nite.
USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 06:25:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.12)
Bill,
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 10:39:08 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.158)
To all who answered my reloading equipment question, Thanks Guys.
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof(you can shoot year round :-), Fl, USA - Friday, April 06,
2001 at 13:02:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.36.28.199)
Armin..
I agree with Two Shoes, I had bought some IMI Match brass for my
son and he loaded up our old standard 45grs of varget for the 168s in the
LC Match cases and in the IMI cases it was to hot!! They have a smaller
case cap. than other cases, we got pressure signs right away.
The other thing we noticed was that after about 2 or 3 firings we
noticed the "Taltale" thin line about one half inch up from the base of
the case. We were getting case seperatiton. These rounds were shot in a
match chamber also not a factory one. Like Terry said we didn't get the
full story but you do need to be careful with the IMI brass.
Once again I have to agree with you on your loading data esp. on
the Hornady dies. Like Bravo, I hated them and threw mine away along with
the RCBS junk. I needed a set one day and borrowed a set for my 25-06 and
when I checked the run out it was near "0" for both case and bullet. I
was amazed and later bought a set for a 30-06 and found the same thing
with these dies. They do have a damn good set of dies now.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 13:34:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Hey Hogs,
Mayhem <killare@hotmail.com>
College Station, Texas, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 17:09:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 128.194.90.204)
Bill0294...
USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 18:28:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.59)
Bill0294: What Pete said about the Marlin plinker. It depends on
what you are going to do. The B&L Elite series would work pretty well
on a .22. Not much $$. The Loopy VariX-IIs are worth the bucks. I considered
both but held out for a VariX-III. You can get a deal at the link below.
It may take a little patience.
USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 18:43:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
More "Rosie" news today guys, seems the 'ol piglet has been hospitalized
for some kind of infection in her hand. She probably bit it while eating.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 19:52:57 (ZULU) (your host
address: 66.27.232.201)
H.
R. 1247
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 23:21:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 65.25.160.112)
I just read the following in Jeff Cooper's latest posting to his
web-site:
USA - Friday, April 06, 2001 at 23:27:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
CDC (aka Daniel;)...
"Any comments"
Contemplating all my broken scopes, in the, USA - Saturday, April 07,
2001 at 00:09:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.14)
Good news but off topic!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 00:29:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.55.196)
B. Douglas,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
OutBack, Ky, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 01:15:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.201.48)
Bolt-ster...
the Bolt-ster is BAaaaad, in the, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at
01:17:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.14)
MikeL: Very nicely done, I like the link (I get my news of current
treason from the Thomas site also), but it's completely off topic. We ought
to stick to sniping (as in shooting, not verbally at eachother) on this
board. With the recent UN fiasco fresh in my mind, I don't want to see
anyone insulted with any "preaching" or "alarmist attitudes". After all,
there's no way they could get away with such a thing, nobody would allow
it, and nobody would enforce it. If you feel you MUST discuss such things,
please take it off the site. There's a site debticated to getting out the
word on this "conspiracy stuff", just click on my name.
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 01:36:38 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.229)
CDC,
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 01:50:55 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.232.237.25)
CDC,
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 01:56:11 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.105.37)
Pablito: Yeah, according to Cooper, I have several thousand dollars
worth of wreckage in the safe. If I had to replace each scope every 1,000
rounds, I'd switch to polo.
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 02:06:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
I'd appreciate your input on the correct method for correction of
elevation on an uphill/downhill shot. Any references you can provide would
be appreciated. I've already read the archive here on the subject.
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 02:28:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.217.73.30)
Bravo;
What kinda jams are you getting and when? You eluded in an earlier
post that Dave Williams was going to see to this pistol,Did He? 1911 Forums.com
is the SC of 1911's with all the same accomplished afficianado's and petty
in-fighting(no more..thanks Ken).A 1911 unless fundamentally flawed should
feed almost ANYTHING out of Wilson 7 rounders.
BruceE <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
texas, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 02:29:55 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.197.77)
Bravo,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 02:56:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.197.46)
Cooper on scopes
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Perusing a copy of Fighting Handguns and wishing the Gods were infalible,
WV, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 02:59:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.181.149.20)
Guys rolling their own ammo, pretty much everyone I suppose...
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 03:07:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 66.27.232.201)
Here's that link. The comment about scopes turning to junk in a
very few rounds is toward the end.
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 03:21:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
'Lito, Glad that worked out. I imagine the pucker factor was a bit
above normal. There was an article in PS a few years ago about an annealing
machine that used a propane setup and a circular burner ring. I tried annealing
LC .308 match by standing them in a pan of water, hetaing them up in low
light to observe the red color and then moving to the next case. Worked
OK but I did burn the zinc out of a few necks. They still shoot PGA though.
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 03:36:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.92.204.212)
B Douglas,
On the RCBS Prep center...it is a good set up for ONE thing, IMHO.
Put a brass brush(cal of your choice), in one rotating hole.
And put a SS brush in another rotating hole.
Other than that, it is about useless for match prepping brass.
Again, IMHO.
On the other subject, get a Gracey trimmer, and don't look back..best
there is for scads of ammo.
Need info on where to buy, hit me offline...taking too much BW here.
Anal Retentive Reloader
Of course..from Tejas!!!
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 04:04:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.102.36)
Barrett .338,
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 04:22:21 (ZULU) (your host
address: 203.97.45.187)
AR Flash Hiders
The best possible flash hider for an AR (or probably any other rifle)
is a suppressor. I've got a Gemtech M4-96d on my M16 and it absolutely
eats the flash. And the noise. Full power ammo sounds like an unsuppressed
.22LR. With subsonic ammo, the loudest thing you can hear is the hammer
falling.
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 08:44:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.217.73.30)
CDC, Tejas Mike, DC8...
So I went down this morning, and shook them riffles, and damn, if
most of them didn't rattle ;((
Had a bad sweat, and took off alla' them scopes, and put them in
a big pile, and then went and shook them, one at a time... and damn, but
none of them rattled ;)
Turns out, it was the sling swivels that was rattling!
Now I gotta put them all back on, and sight them all in again.
>>"... and wishing the Gods were infallible"<<
Nicely (and respecfully) said... there tends to be an attitude in
this country, that if someone knows a hellova lot about A, B, and C, then
anything they say about X, Y, and Z, must be taken seriously.
I had one of those "Prep Center" thingies. I looked at it, turned
it on once, and wasn't too crazy about it, and put it aside... never used
it. It was clear that it would be really slow, and I was looking for really
F-A-S-T, cuz I'll do a 1000 cases at one sitting :((
He called me up a week later, and said that everything I said was
pretty much true... it's slow.
Look at the Forster, with the power drill adaptor. If you have a
drill press, they have a special one for drill presses, that's very nice.
Yup, and the pucker is down to zero now... I'm polishing them now,
as I type.
On the real neck annealing... I have started building a annealing
machine that will use a case feeder, and a Geneva movement... it sits on
a 55 gallon drum, and drops them in on a timed basis. It'll be changable
for .223, .308, and 50BMG.
Stand them puppies in water, so the shoulder is out, and heat them
with a propane torch until the water at the case body starts to bubble...
(should be about 10 or so, seconds) then knock it over with the torch.
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 12:22:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.48)
Mista Douglas,
You don't need no steeken power tools, just a buncha incense, some
Enigma C-D's, and a bucket or two of soy beans or rice!
Kinda like the other two "Johns" in DC Metro area(Pepper and George)
Just having been in their presence makes you want to scream "We Are Not
Worthy". (Both of which have used scoped military rifles for ending hostilities.)
Thats the "Pepper Popper" inventor, and the author of "Shots Fired in Anger"
for those on the outside of the inside. err whatever.
Sunlight and the Bee-Uteeeefull smell of the mower firing up for
the first time this year..................
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
A Beutiful Day in, By-Gawd, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 12:48:41
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.37)
Hogs:
Nokesville, sharpening the bushhog blades, USA - Saturday, April 07,
2001 at 13:17:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
B. Douglas,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 13:27:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.201.62)
Last year, there was an M14 that blew up, and was the talk of the
internet shooting site (including this one)... every "Un-educated Guess"
possible was put forward, most saying that the powder "detonated"!
... anyway, there's a final report out, done by a metalurgical lab
and paid for by Fulton Armory, and it's a very good read.
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 15:55:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.29)
Testing..justlost a good post
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Seneca, WV, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 17:03:31 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.92.148.69)
Patron lito'.......
It is, as we suspected a metalurgical failure.
Not an ammo issue......
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 18:32:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.198)
CDC/Dan, I think the Col's comments prove two points:
MikeMIller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 18:52:42 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.200.48)
SLING ??
I have both the REM 700P in 308 and 300mag. Trying to decide on
a good sling that would work on both. What would you guys recomend? THANKS
Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 19:01:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.177.18.213)
Bruce, Markwell and Guru Bill: you name it, they're all kinds. From
my notes here, we've got rnd 14 failure to feed (a tip-up), 100 stopped
pretty much straight up half in the mag, 136 failed to go into battery
by the last 1/16" until I GENTLY tapped the slide with my thumb, 178 failed
to feed 'cause the round jumped in front of the extractor, 200 like an
upside down smokestack jam, with the bullet straight down (WTF?!?), total
fired 250. Some of these were speed drills from the leather. Draw, fire,
put on safe and reholster. Although that should make NO difference. Some
of them were rapidfire drills, which shouldn't make any difference either.
Dave Williams took care of it, I was told it was him personally, and he
did drop me an e-mail to ask some stuff, so I believe that. Oh, all 250
rounds were with the Wilson-Rogers mag. I'll go check out the 1911 forum,
but I think my answer might be that this piece is just good with ball,
since it didn't choke with the last 50 rounds (UMC ball). My saying is
"if it won't feed with ball, it won't feed at all". The same UMC ball gave
it fits before this last return. Maybe this one just doesn't like truncated
cones. I just want it to prove itself worthy of purchasing a K of hollowpoints
before I spend the dough, and get stung *ONCE AGAIN*, by digesting a K
of lead loads without a jam first.
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Still snowing in, Arlen, Texas, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 19:21:42
(ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.177)
Bravo, AA2015BR was the stuff I was using through my comp'd 14.5inch
barrel, at night the flash was a nice glorious 5 gallon Arrowhead watter
bottle sized flame of bright orange.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 21:30:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.162.44.214)
Doug: "... 308 and 300mag. Trying to decide on a good sling that
would work on both." The only answer is the Quick Cuff from Tactical Intervention
Specialists. It was designed and is being made by Mike "Undude" Miller.
He's the guy who posted immediately before the post in which you asked
that question.
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 21:58:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Man, I'm at work and got called away briefly so I had to cut my
post short and I wasn't able to read as deeply into the postings as I'd
have liked to. Sorry for the rapid fire posting.
NO JOKE! I'D LOVE TO GET A CAN FOR ONE OF MY ARs! Can't do that
till I get out of Ca. and get myself a preban though. Can't put a sound
suppressor on a postban firearm since it is also a very effective flash
suppressor. Plus being in Ca. makes it difficult enough to get a suppressor
for any of my firearms that having a preban AR15 wouldn't matter anyhow.
Me Ogre, me crush good, me squash things good, Commiefornia, USA -
Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 22:24:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.224.129.64)
Suppressors:
All suppressors will overheat given their specific construction
material and temperature rise. I saw a round come through the side of an
aluminum can on an M16, somewhere in the middle of the third round full
auto, changed as fast as they could. Doc Dater was on site, and his analysis
was that the baffles melted and slumped into the bullet path.
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 22:35:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 65.65.98.247)
" . . .middle of the third round full auto, changed as fast as they
could."
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 22:49:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
65.65.98.247)
Uglygun,
Yeah, the scented patches thing will work, just don't do it around
'Lito or Bolt, in their current pheronal state.
Thats just one of the main reasons I quit 9mm, the pinched fingers
made it tough on trigger control.
Buuuuuuuuuuuuuurp! ;-)
Is Rod currently stocking Anacondas for the fall?
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, April 07, 2001 at 23:32:45 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.38)
PeteR:
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 01:17:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
"Ghillie fur ball"? Very costly LOL!
NC, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 01:46:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.55.252)
BMG Mike -
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 02:49:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.195.182)
Bolt,
'Lito gets any closer to Torstens kinfolk- "Prima Bella Donna",
"Lucy Borgia", or whatever her name is, and even 1500mg tabs aren't going
to help
and NO PAUL!,Velcro covered surgical gloves are NOT CONSIDERED universal
precautions. ;-)
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 03:12:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.167)
Folks,
Last year I watched a show off MELT the internals out of a competitor's
can. We were wondering what the silver shit was going down range. Idiot
managed to aluminum "solder" the unit to the rifle.
If you're looking at cans and they have aluminum baffels or internals
pass on them. May work for SMG's, but not for rifle calibers!
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 03:56:54 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.168)
Titan, B. Douglas,
Thanks for the input. I should have mentioned, Loopy VariX III,
3.5-10*40, mil-dot ret, and target turrets. I decided to try to learn come-ups,
etc before "cheating" with the BDC ;)
You were right, shoulda checked there first.
seattle, wa, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 06:06:13 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.36.222.46)
I decided to try to learn come-ups, etc before "cheating" with
the BDC ;)
Brew City, WI, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 07:26:38 (ZULU) (your
host address: 65.25.160.112)
Back from Vegas and up from my nap.
Whew...it is good to be back.
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 13:53:10
(ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.196)
Morning Roster Hawgs!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 14:05:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.54.121)
Carbon Fiber Barrel
The hogue ruber overmolded stock has some flex in the forarm (which
can be expected with a synthetic stock, but this fex coupled with the barrel
prouduced inaccuracy. The steel is only a thin sleave for the bulk of the
barrel covered by a carbon fiber composite. This thin steel alows for the
barrel to flex. So when the rifle is put onto sandbags the forarm flexes
slightly in turn flexing the barrel. Before I discovered the problem I
had noticed that I was only able to obtain roughtly .75" groups at 60 yards.
After discovering the problem and compensating for it by putting the rest
just infront of the recever I was able to obtain almost 1/3" goups. This
problem prevents me from putting a bipod on the rifle (which is one of
the things I wanted to do). I am sending this barrel back for a green mountain
fluited bull. I already have a marlin 70P (papoose) that is a good close
range .22 at a fraction of the cost this one would be. I have heard that
others have had problems with there carbon fiber barrels from other producers
(Remington etc) I believe that this could be a problem for them also and
prevents them from obtaining good groups, but I havnt checked any other
carbon fiber barrels so I cant be sure. The way I checked for barrel flex
was by holding the recever and the end of the barrel and then pulling to
see if the barrel flexed away from the stock.
I will update everyone when I get my green mountain barrel in as
to its accuracy and ballance on the hogue stock. I am also going to be
getting a titanium firing pin and claw extractor, possibly a liniar compensator
like I had heard mentioned on here that disperces all the gasses infront
of the muzzle.
Charlie
Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
J-Town, AR, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 15:53:08 (ZULU) (your host
address: 208.191.254.236)
Kevin, (Andy's Dad),
Kev, don't discard it....it's the most concentric case on the market
outside of Lapua. Fed is one of the worst, Win is the best American made.(
for concentricity purposes)For mil-spec it's astonishing.
I have shot it for several years, with many sub .3's....
That case w/ a 175, Fed 210M, and 42.2 grs of MR 4064...is a winner
big time.
That is ONE of the beauties of the case, you don't HAVE to run 44-45
grains of anything in it to get excellent results.
Out of my Hart's riffles, get approx 2666fps.........
Will hold under .5 moa @ 500 yards.(.003, neck tension).
Never shown any excessive pressures with above powder, and components.
All the way to 112 degrees F.
Hit me offline for some other goodies, and combos....
It is NOT a case for Varget.....Lapua is THE king......(((:
USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 18:40:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.195.197)
What is the best method (cool, dark, dry) for long term storage
of primers? I currently use ziplock bags in 50 cal. cans. I don't shoot
the volume of most here, and don't want to bulk buy more than will keep
for a set period of time.Also what is the normal shelf life if stored in
the preferred manner? Much thanks,
Mark
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Sunday, April 08, 2001 at 22:55:22 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.204.202)
Kevin of the GWN-
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 00:53:53 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.4.252.150)
Mil-Dot Master Slope Doping incorrect?
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 01:16:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.249.72)
Does anyone have information on the cz 537 *sport* rifle? such as
price, or personal experience with it?
JG
JG <winterstick30@spazmail.com>
Moreno Valley, CA, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 02:06:43 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.162.216)
Wes: "According to Mike Brown, the author, it uses (cos theta)*true
range in the formula.
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 02:11:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
PeteR...The gun Gods will not forgive your transgressions[sp?] with
the mower! Grass was put on the earth to be eaten by those animals that
can be ridden, eaten, or shot. Any other perported use for it, IMHO, is
part of a conspiracy on the part of the government and big business to
seperate us from money and time that could be better spent shooting.
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Mobile and rehabing in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, April 09,
2001 at 02:11:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.33)
Titan,
no you aren't the only one, I have to do the same thing every time
I post.........put in the password twice.
I have not brought it to Ken's attention though.
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 02:14:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.195.191)
Titan
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Computer challenged un the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, April 09,
2001 at 02:26:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.33)
CSC -
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 02:27:39 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.4.252.150)
Wes - On the gravity distance question. It will work under most
circumstances. The problems come in at longer ranges. What gets left out
is the lower strike caused by air resistance. The bullet really is traveling
750 meters even if you only put 550 on the gun. Hence you have an environmental
effect of 750. That is where you read the winds and that is where you will
get the low strike. The formula is quite complex and a royal pain. Will
the Mil Dot Master work for most shots, yes and I proudly own one. Can
you shoot the difference at the ranges and angles that it would make a
difference, you darn tooten. Would you normally run into those situations,
probably not. You would be in SWAG land anyhow. :-)
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 02:28:27 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.207.58)
Slope Shooting
"
Wes: "According to Mike Brown, the author, it uses (cos theta)*true
range in the formula. Mike B. indicated the correct formula should be come
ups for the true range*(cos theta)."
Mad Scientist In Training
Not an Engineer, but Please don't tell my boss!
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 02:31:59 (ZULU) (your host
address: 64.123.14.101)
Wes,
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 02:37:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.254.238.32)
Slope Correction
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 03:01:08 (ZULU) (your host
address: 64.123.14.101)
Mark,
on the primer issue...you said it..
That's ideal conditions for primer and powder storage.
Just do NOT remove the primers from the original shipping containers.
Loose primers, can collect static electricity, and detonate.
Powder, also should always be stored in the original containers.
Shelf life of both is in excess of your lifespan..under the conditions
you described.
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 03:09:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.105.37)
Slope Shooting
incorporate them into these two approximation methods."
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 03:21:56 (ZULU) (your host
address: 64.123.14.101)
Mike,
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 03:49:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.254.238.77)
Slope Shooting
Wes - On the gravity distance question. It will work under most
circumstances. The problems come in at longer ranges. What gets left out
is the lower strike caused by air resistance. The bullet really is traveling
750 meters even if you only put 550 on the gun. Hence you have an environmental
effect of 750. That is where you read the winds and that is where you will
get the low strike. The formula is quite complex and a royal pain. Will
the Mil Dot Master work for most shots, yes and I proudly own one. Can
you shoot the difference at the ranges and angles that it would make a
difference, you darn tooten. Would you normally run into those situations,
probably not. You would be in SWAG land anyhow.
:-)
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 03:57:51 (ZULU) (your host
address: 64.123.14.101)
Bruces Mildot Master, in my opinion, is a complete and total success.
I watched CDC slam his target, an approximation of a pot sized target,
first round from a moderately high elevation, with the first round. Then
I did the same. We both used the Mildot Master. I'm no idol worshiper (Sorry
Bruce ;-)), so if something better comes along, I'll use it. Color me sceptical
though, as this thing just plain works too well for me to trash. I've said
it before, and I'll say it again. My Mildot Master rides right next to
my pocket constitution, and if I've got clothes on, I've got my mildot
master close at hand. I'd rather have it than extra ammo, as with the MM,
I can at least make 20 great hits. Without it, but another 100 rounds,
things would get really iffy at range IN A RUSH. IN A RUSH is what a spotter
is all about, and that's me, so no flames please. The only downside to
my MM is that it's taken on somewhat of a curve from being carried so much.
Still works 100% though. That, and as I've told Bruce, it doesn't fit in
a M-14 mag pouch HA! DOUBLE HA!
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 04:27:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.151)
Here we go again,
Have you read the Archieves and Hot Tips & Cold Shots?
just ask Dan...................
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 10:54:25 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.196.42)
BMG Mike...
On extream angles, and long ranges... cos*come-ups are affected
by the velocity factor...
Example... the 175SMK (BC ~ .510) at 2685 muzzle. At 600yds the
remaining velocity is about 1700fps, and at 1200 yds it's about 1075fps.
... you could not simply do cos60*come-ups, because the drop come-ups
for 600 are based on a velocity of 1700, but your bullet is traveling at
1100.
You would need to use come-ups for a bullet that was traveling at
1100 at 600yds.
If you backwards-number crunch, you find... Voila, the BC for a
bullet that would fit that profile is around .260.
HA!... no longer a 2" x 3" pocket card... not even a palm top...
we're talking lap top here :((
Phooie!
On bad spelling, and bad typing...
It's like that double negative thingie... as in "Don't never go
there!"
... aend alsoe ue wil hav mour taht wiil have daz that ar treerabul
;))
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 11:30:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.106)
Ref: Tabasco Scope
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 11:48:52
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Slope shooting
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 12:08:31 (ZULU) (your host
address: 64.123.14.101)
155 Lapua Scenars .508 B.C. @ 2900 fps
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 13:31:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 131.158.166.157)
BMGMike: Search Oct 99 plus or minus a month. Keyword: Cosine.
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 13:38:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Sorry for the add-on post but I had an additional bit of info on
the bullet comparison.
Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 13:47:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 131.158.166.157)
Bill Harding,
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 14:12:02 (ZULU) (your host
address: 15.254.49.2)
BMGMike..
Mike far be it from me to argue about math because I would be the
last one to try to tell anyone about how to figure out something with math.(CDC
is my man for that) The thing is I have used the Mil Dot master since I
first learned about them and it has served me well. I use it all the time
when shooting long range and like Bravo, I wouldn't be without it on the
range.
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 14:28:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
BMG Mike - no herm intended other that to hoot on Publis Education,
of today. I was educated that way and it got me into USAFA. Unfortunately
today this is the type of crap being taught. I pulled my 14 year old out
of suppodedly a fine public school two years ago because of this sort of
" un math" as I call it. the english teacher couldn't spell as well I can
so you see the problem. What I was really trying to point out is that there
is alot more going on here and that the "Mil dot Master " is only a starting
point.
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 15:42:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.4.252.150)
BMG Mike - Buy all means I would like to see your paper and no one
here is trying to discourage you. If the paper can past the muster here
it's damn fine work and ought to blow your professor away. I have had my
butt chewed many times, but remember, whatever doesn't kill you makes you
stronger. Remember aslo that it is this type of examination that we all
learn from. Keep it up!!!!!
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 16:00:09 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.4.252.150)
Titan...
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 16:13:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.13)
Mike,
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 16:15:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.254.243.179)
Wow Doc, that is impressive. I have to get some and try them out.
Are they taking about the same loads as the Sierra 155's?
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 17:22:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.196.33)
155Palma's..
I did some playing with the ballistics computer and a 155 at 3000fps
has nearly the same exact wind drift as a 175 at 2700fps. The nice thing
is that you will shoot nearly 4 feet flatter with the 155s at 1000yds.
There should only be about 20 or so lbs of energy difference between the
two bullets with the 155 having the edge on velocity.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 19:23:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Slope shooting
- - - - -
"An elevation correction takes into account both factors, so if
you dial up 25 MOA for 800 yards, you have taken into
account both gravity and the air resistance for that particular
cartridge.
- - - - -
Here's that conceptual error again - forget air resistance!
of air resistance unchanged? Whereas applying the cosine to the
range does not take into account the difference between
line-of-sight range and resultant differences in air resistance?
- - - - - -
I'm going to let this set for a while while my (unwilling) reviewers
do their thing.
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 19:41:15 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.18.199.140)
Undude -
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 20:27:23 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.18.199.198)
M 19 Bino´s
germany - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 20:29:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
193.159.89.196)
All of you are forgetting the most important factor in the equation
which we all know is "SPINDRIFT"!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 21:09:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.54.117)
BMG Mike,
Thanks for the data once again WE grow stronger. Pat M. will give
us the wind drift stuff on them if things remain constant in SoDak.
Try Gooch and Master Rick on the M-19's, I thinks its in the archieves
two years ago, but senility is taking its toll today.
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 21:41:51 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.102.39)
Bolt, you forgot the all important electro-magnetic deflection due
to the booolet accumulating electrons from collisions with air molecules
while flying through the Earth's magnetic field.
Bravo Sierra, WI, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 21:45:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 65.25.160.112)
Has anyone ever observed the effects of shooting a high (2000 psi)
pressure O2 bottle, such as used on a small cutting torch rig? We have
a military group onsite this week that wishes to do a test on a cylinder.
The test would be with the issue .300WM rifle, we are trying to decide
which range to use and the safety parameters. My vote is to shoot at 400
yards, placeing the cylinder base down on the groung and shooting the top
third of the unit. Our estimate of effects is the launching of the valve
and/or the top portion of the cylinder, should the round cause the cylinder
to fail at the POI. If the round simply punches through, the effect should
be much like a burst disk rupture, where the cylinder will pretty much
spin around frantically until the gas is depleted (which won't be long,
given a .30 cal hole ;)!)
Paulden, Az, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 21:56:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.86.140.51)
Cory TRAPP
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 22:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.18.199.124)
Mike
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 22:27:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.78.126.146)
BMG Mike, dude we can go round and round. First an answer to your
question "Would you like to be able to make 1000 yard head shots?" I have
made them. Hell I have made three in a row but would never try it in the
real world.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 22:53:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.105.39)
Bruce Robinson,
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 23:46:13 (ZULU)
(your host address: 204.244.197.58)
"The Angle Of Fall" is most influenced by the "Angle Of The Dangle"....Which
in turn directly impacts the fecal velocity....;)
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 23:47:04 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.197.178)
Mildot Master, Slope Dopin' and reality...
Some of it will only come into effect under very controlled conditions,
like the dreaded "Spin Drift".
' with 10 or 15 feet of hold off, 6" of spin drift all of a sudden,
looks really small.
Do these little errors of "Spin drift" and cos*whatever effect whether
you get a "Clank" or a "Miss"... I don't think so!
Kevin's snow is gone... now it's MONSOON season, in the North East,
USA - Monday, April 09, 2001 at 23:51:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.59)
Cory Dudeski,
NC, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 01:36:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.49.119.87)
HELP!!!!
I was at a webpage over the weekend reading about a scope attachment
that not only helped reduce any reflection from coming off of your scope,
but also helped cut through mirrage.
The articles talked about glassing over 1-200 yards of blacktop
and not being able to see much at all, but with the 3/4" attachment, the
mirage was gone, and previously blurred signs were now readable. As it
was an aftermarket product, they had diameters up to 56 or so. The articles
mentioned not have any widths for the larger US Optics scopes.
I will keep hunting around for the website, and update everyone
on what I find, especially if I find it again. But if anyone thinks they
know where I was, I would appreciate an email with the link!
Wolfgang <duncan_wolfgang7@yahoo.com>
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 01:39:11 (ZULU) (your
host address: 199.183.75.99)
BMG Mike - 1000 meters is SWAG land no matter what your paper says!
Add 45 degrees and you are in a world of hurt. I, personally, would not
shoot there. I would either let them get closer or I would get closer.
Using Plaster in front of me is like waving a red flag so I will not go
there. Although I have often wondered how using his very first formula
lets it be known that there are 91 yards in 100 meters. I have Pejsa's
book and ballistic program, and I do not intend to throw ballistic missiles
about. Please get morre involved n the actual art of shooting at these
ranges before you discuss such as head shots at 1000 meters, only SEALs
believe in that utter nonsense. Now then 5% error of 10 moa at 1000 is
.5 moa or 5 inches or I can’t shoot that close because 1 mph of wind will
make that difference! The bottom line is that at the ranges and angles
that will make Bruce'’ little whiz fail is at angels and ranges I would
not shoot. The human eye sees in the vertical at an exaggeration. The eye
will see an angel to be 25 or even 30 degrees when in reality it is 3 to
6 degrees. We have some real fun with that on one of our ranges. At 700,
to get angles that will cause failure is to shoot in an area of heavy mountains
that T may have to shoot in on a very bad day.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 01:43:46 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.182)
Mike of the Serbu: I don't know what the envelope is where the mildot
master starts failing, no. But the reason I don't know where it starts
to fail is because it's like my Glock, it *ALWAYS* works for me. When I
hit a situation where it doesn't work, then I'll know where that envelope
lies, but it hasn't happened yet. To be fair, however, my M-25 doesn't
get much use beyond 600 yards other than in a purely recreational role.
However, it's my contention that a snapper in a honest situation (not harassing,
but a situation where the target can call in arty) will be within 600 yards
anyway. Wind is our greatest foe, and it is somewhat relentless. On this
I believe you'll agree. Oh, and my purpose as a spotter (ideally) isn't
to call misses. I don't expect people like Patrons UnDude, 'Lito, or Dave
to miss in the field. Period. And I doubt I'd put my neck on the line with
someone of a mcuh lesser quality. No, my purpose is to catch those multiple
secondaries - QUICKLY. I'm not promising to be too quick, but I'd be happy
to take a look at your paper. CDC is the mathematical guru, to be sure!,
but the last subject I taught was physics 101 (classical mechanics), although
just in a tutorial role.
Boomhauer <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 01:46:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.109)
Howdy,
Not posted in a very long time. I hope that every one is well. Here
is a quick question for the duty slotted folks out there. What are your
thoughts on the "shooting coat" for snipers in both the L.E. and Mil. envirment.
Reason I ask was while I was attending firearms instructor training for
my agency some folks that were LE type sniper types where wearing them.
(They were at the same facilty but a diffrent course of instruction)Had
not seen that before but that does not mean a lot 'cause there is a lot
I have not seen.
10-42 Stagger
Terre Haute, In, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 01:52:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.196.36)
A vivid story...
My dad was stationed in K-Bay in Oahu before Vietnam, in a helo
unit there. A fire extinguisher fell off the wall in one of the hangars...
it punched through the next couple of hangars before landing in the bay...
don't know how it didn't behead several people.
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 01:53:49 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.98.84.146)
Wolfgang...
They are called "Aperture disks", and at one time, they were a catalogue
item from Leupold. The box had three threaded plates, with holes of different
sizes.
They cut down mirage quite well...
Kevin's snow is gone... now it's MONSOON season, in the North East,
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 02:03:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.59)
Hello folks!!
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 02:04:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
I FOUND IT!!!!
Date: 3. Jul 96 11:26
Tenebraex produces a Sunshade (Anti-reflection/ Anti-Glint) Filters
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 02:18:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 199.183.75.99)
Damn!
sd, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 02:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.34.14.24)
Wolfgang,
"F" stop adapters are(were) from Leupold, or a good camera store
(Lemay -Any ideas?)
I even have a pix of what it does to you..........hee-hee
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 02:28:18 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.196.59)
Hey Y'all,
USMC
Oxford, MS, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 02:32:46 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.89.160.30)
JR...
We did an interesting thing years ago... cut back a 30-06 barrel
to 2" in front of the bullet nose, and fired a round into cotton batting.
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 02:55:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.59)
You guys are too easy to impress. I'm fair to middlin' at stats
and some types of game theory. To get there I had to learn enough of the
basics to get by. The stuff I do may not seem basic to you, but its not
your field. There are math whizzes out there and I ain't it. Trust me on
this.
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 02:56:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
BMGMike...
Don't you believe that CDC rascal... he eats numbers for breakfast,
and spits out the decimals. he just keep alla good stuff to his self, so
he can clean our collective clocks ;))
The Tenabraex things are not what you were talking about.
Tenabraex makes two kinds of reflection supression... the cheapies
that are marketed through Lupita, that are about 1/4" thick (optically
poor), and the ones that Tenabraex sells themselves... about 1" thick,
with bigger holes in the honeycomb... these are optically very good, but
are very expensive.
These Tenabraex screens will do nothing for mirage at all, and the
cheap ones from Lupita will degrade the image.
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 03:16:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.115)
Slope doping....BMG Mike...I posted this 'new' equation here about
a year ago and had the same A x B = B x A reaction. I then had followup
discussions with 'Lito on it which he blew off (guess the sheepies were
the focus at the time, LOL (Sorry Lito, couldn't resist )) Multiplying
the cos times comeups does indeed yield a better approximation than using
the slant range and as I recall it's about halfway between the 'old' approximation
and the 'actual' solution. Not a bad improvement for essentially the same
math. As was pointed out it is hard to apply to MD master due to individuality
of ballistics. Where the MD master shines is as a plug and chug tool for
'math-challenged' types. This is NOT a flame to you guys, just facts as
I see them. I like math (except stats, Dan) and prefer the best data I
can 'reasonably' generate hence I use a pocket slide rule. (Bravo..it doesn't
bend and is small enough to fit in little pouch!) Slide rules are not complicated
if you put a little time and practise into them but most people would rather
not and for them MD master is the way to go.
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
TX, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 03:50:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.193.186.57)
Mr. Brand X,
I was wondrin' when...you would wade into this foray!!!!!.
You held out longer than I figured............HAH!!
Probably in the lab right now, workin' on cosines, and such........(;
Decent info.
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 04:20:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.194.186)
'lito:
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 04:22:06 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
Rick,
I put on my kevlar undies before I got into this fray. Sort of as
I expected. Some out of channel encouragement, lots of heel-digging in.
Like I said, you can't hang with shooters if you are thin-skinned.
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 05:40:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.123.14.101)
Brandx
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 06:01:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.123.14.101)
Mike,
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 07:24:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.254.243.7)
Ref: 155 Palma
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 08:45:54
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.29)
Lito,
Not the honeycombs, sumfin else even betterer. They have been out
for a while now.............
Three different critters here, the f-stoppers, the polarizers, and
the ARD's. I dun kunfused yew agin. :-) This is more fun than picking on
AL O.
175's were designed to stay supersonic at longer ranges and still
give a velocity of over 2600 fps from M-40A-series or M-24-series rifles.
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 11:00:31 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.201.204)
Ref: Bottom Line (slope shooting)
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 11:51:39
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Doc King and Pat: Keep us informed on the 155's. ie Barrel twist
rate, loads, chrono info, etc. Sounds like it might be of interest for
that 20" barrel 308 project I'm starting.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 12:37:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
Lito,
Semper Fi and lets bring our people back from China!!!
San Fran, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 12:48:13 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.211.20.29)
KevinAndy'sDad...distilled slope doping:
1)'old time' slope approximation: slant range x cos(angle)= effective
range. Dial in for this effective range and dump it.
2)'new' approximation: comeups for slant range x cos= corrected
comeups. Dial it and dump it.
3) These two approximations are just that, approximate soutions,
not the 'true-actual-physics-derived soulution.
4) both approx solutions use the same math, some number x cos(angle)
5)the 'new' method gives better data compared to 'true' solution
6) the 'old' method has been used for many years
7)if something is 'better' why not use it?
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
Tx, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 13:16:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.193.186.188)
A bit of editing of my previous post for clarity...
5)the 'new' method gives better data compared to 'true' solution
Tx, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 13:23:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.193.186.188)
Doc..
Mine are 155MKs(Sierras) I don't have any of the Lapuas but have
heard good and bad about their bullets and wouldn't mind trying some.
I have not shot the 155s much but the ones I did shoot out to 600yds
shot very well, I had a group at 400yds that was 1.8" for 5 shots. I have
to say though that the 168s have served me well to 1000yds. I don't know
how fast your pushing your 168s but at close to 2800fps they will group
under MOA nearly all the time if I do my part.
Like Bruce, I had trouble opening the e.mail you sent. I probably
wouldn't understand it anyway I wasn't joking when I said I was math challenged.:):)
I know what your saying and I admire you for sticking to your guns but
I think it may be a lot like the spin drift theory. There are to many other
outside factors that over ride your's thereby canceling it out, so to speak.
As someone stated, spin drift does have a 6" drift on the bullet but when
the wind has a 5 foot drift at the same range why worry about it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 13:52:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Darren Dong...
The big one has very large holes in the honeycomb to avoid the "Edge
effect", but then has to go to 2" thickness in order to work, and stop
reflections.
I checked out the Tenabraex site, and they aren't showing any "Aperture"
rings, which doesn't surprise me, as that's not in their world of interest.
Polarizers? What polarizers? they ain't got no steenkin' polarizers
either! ;)
The "more bearing surface" thing has been debated for a while.
Though I can't prove it, and there are a lot of very good "Tangent"
design bullets that shoot very well, if I look back over the years (not
counting my black powder years in the War Between the States ;), I have
to say that I have would up shooting Hornady "Secant" designs in more of
my guns, after trying out all the usual suspects... so I'm a believer in
the bearing thing, at least as it is done by the Hornady guys.
Is the sun ever gonna shine in this pinko state?... in the, USA - Tuesday,
April 10, 2001 at 14:30:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60)
JR..
Forgot to answer your post, I disagree with you on that. I think
the 6.5 gets some great performance out of the 08 case compared to the
rest. I also like the 6.5 better than the 7mm because of the higher BCs
of the 6.5s, hence, they fly better at long range and are less affected
by the wind.
Will do, It may be a while before I get the cronograph results on
the loads but I will try to get them as soon as we get a break in the weather.
Its been cloudy, rainy and windy for the last 3 weeks. I need some sunshine!!!!!!!!
Yes you can. I used to eyeball the angle than take .8 or .9 or what
ever times the range, depending on the angle, and it would usually come
out pretty close. With the MM you figure the angle and look it up and it
will tell you the yards to dial for instead of figuring it out in your
head or on a calculator. Faster and more convenient with all the data you
need in one little unit.
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 14:43:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
BrandX, Mike or whoever: All I'm seeing is a result. Someone please
send me this derivation. Standard syntax would be appreciated. If its on
this board somewhere, or if some one has already sent it, its lost in the
background racket.
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 15:11:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Doc King: Question when you were shooting at Storm this past weekend
with those 155 Scenar's in the 18 mph winds how did your windage compare
to the 168's, 175's with that .512 BC?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 15:41:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
Apples, oranges, and BCs...
The BCs are NOT established by a standard proceedure, so Sierra's
.560 may not be compreable to someone else's .560.
Some, like Sierra test their bullets, and run their own program.
Some other companies use cross-section profiles, and estimate the BCs,
or run tests, but don't use a standard program... your best bet, is to
load them at the same velocity, and shoot them against each other.
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 16:02:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.60)
Mike..
I just got a copy of your paper and like I said I don't understand
the math but in your example you state that as and example M118 drops 395"
at 1000yds and if you were shooting at a 25.8 degree angle the cosine would
be .9 and then you take it times the 395" and come up with a correction
of 355.5" for the corrected data to shoot at this angle at 1000yds. Am
I right or did I miss something here???
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 16:27:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Pat -
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 17:01:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.18.199.140)
Tony
Damascus, MD, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 17:05:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 131.158.166.157)
Slope dope...hard data. Ok, this may be hard to pull together so
bear with me. Just called Sierra to get best data I know of...
dope for 30/168 at 2700fps, 100 yd zero, 70 F, 1000 ft.
I've converted all path heights to MOA already so it is 'comparison'
chart showing : ACTUAL/NEW/OLD corrections. Also bear in mind that the
OLD approx figures are realistically better than you would have in the
field because I got exact drop from Sierra for wierd ranges rather than
interpolating in your 50 or 100 yd increments....
Range= 400 700 1000
ANGLE=0 7.7 19.9 38.1
15 deg 7.4/7.5/7.0 19.2/19.2/18.1 36.8/36.8/34.3
30 deg 6.5/6.7/5.2 17.1/17.2/13.5 32.9/33.0/25.1
so for same math you get much better results...brand.
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
Tx, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 17:10:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.144.151.137)
Check this:
Measured range to target is 900 yards. (hypotenuse)
(Cos30)(900)= 779 yards.(base leg)
Dial in elevation data for 780 yard.
Dial in windage data for 900 yards??
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 17:26:54
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Apology
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 17:29:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.18.199.140)
Kevin...qualified yes. The wind dope is determined by TOF (time
of flight) for the 900 yard slant range. It is only the bullet path that
needs correcting and the math you did is the 'old' method. 'New' method
you would range 900 yards, look up comeups for 900 then multiply cos(30)x
(900 yd comeup)= actual comeups to dial. Now then...all yous guyz wit Loopy
M3 heads up. You have your 'cam' on and all set up. Do your ranging then
set cam for range, look at MOA and do your multiplication and make adjustment.
For most situations I would hazard to guess you could do mental math and
be 'close enough'. Remember maybe 3 numbers: cos(18)=.95 cos(26)=.90 and
cos(30)=.85 (well, .866) These should cover you pretty good if you don't
have slide rule. brand.
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
Tx, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 18:03:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.210.241.103)
Hey Mike...grab a slip stick. Cursor to tgt size(ft) on D, then
mils on C slid under cursor. Now slide cursor to '3' on CI and range is
under cursor on D (or DF if you use '3' on CIF). "Slide Rule Country"
brand.
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
Tx, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 18:17:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.65.190.134)
Doc King: What was the length of your barrel to get 2900 from the
155's.
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 18:19:10 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
Ken Hunter and BMG Mike,
Denver, CO, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 18:41:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 15.254.49.2)
Andy's Dad:
instead of the yardage.
iiii's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
Siloam Springs, Ar, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 19:06:31 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.180.111.53)
Mike..
OK, then I see what your saying. You had me confused there for a
minute. I guess I don't argue with what your saying but then have you tested
this for real or is this just all on paper???
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 19:58:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Mike,
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 20:14:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.254.243.22)
He of Dos Sopantos,
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 20:39:27 (ZULU) (your host
address: 208.232.237.136)
I need to get some advice from you more experienced types. I need
to pick up a new scope for a 700 VLS in .308. Expected usage is some matches
and as a work rifle in an industrial (nuclear) setting. Figure 350 yard
max in real world sceanario.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 21:15:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
158.106.50.3)
And so it ends, another Sniper Country saga put to rest. Not to
mention the fact that I hate math, I do enjoy the intellectual interchange
that we have here. I think that all of us agree that the MM is a great
tool, not to leave home without. No batteries, keyboards and cables to
deal with! Just cipher the mils, slip the stick, crank the dial and dump.
Don't get no better than that!
NC, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 22:00:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.55.125)
I have a question for the roster. If you don't want to take up bandwidth
with the answer just e-mail me. Patron Pablito I think this will be right
up your alley given your love affair with Model 70's. Is it feasible to
adjust the trigger yourself, and if it is how do i go about it safely.
I used your hot tip on adjusting a Mod 700 and it worked to perfection.
My buddy has a model 70 that I'm thinking of acquiring, but I swear the
trigger is 15 lbs!! Thanks in advance for your help guys.
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
frostproof, Fl, USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 23:22:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.25.115.120)
Wow, glad the slide rules and calculators have been put up.
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 23:37:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
66.26.22.240)
Jim Wise...
No waste of bandwidth... I got three requests for M70 triggers this
week.
The one against the trigger... that's the over travel screw. Adjust
that one first.
The other two nuts are locked against each other, and hold the spring
tension. Loosen these two, and spin the nuts towards the trigger to lighten
the pull. When it is as you like it, tighten them together.
That's it... the engagement is cut in at the factory, and is set
with a guage... it's good and clean out of the box.
IF you can't get the pull down to where you want, then there are
too many coils on the spring. Push the trigger pin PART WAY OUT, until
the trigger comes out, but the bolt release, and bolt release spring stays
in.
The 190 and heavier bullets are standard on the 300WM, because it's
considered a longer range round, and the heavier bullets will perform better,
out past 500 or 600 yds.
For "Long" range shooting, it's best to use the heaviest bullet
that give the best performance (energy, and/or trajectory) at the range
you are HITTING at, not the best velocity at the muzzle.
I saw a birdie today... it's spring, in the North East, USA - Tuesday,
April 10, 2001 at 23:51:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.11)
Mike in Texas.......
Never the teacher, always the student
At Mike in Texas' feet!!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 10, 2001 at 23:59:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.36)
HOGs, you just got after another day of wrestling 19 year old AH's
who use to much dope and no brains.
MikeMIller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 00:25:17 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.201.184)
Anybody know what's up with Dave Wheeler and the Blue Steel Ranch?
I tried to call to get signed up for the Shotist match, but all you get
is a message stating the range is closed, and will be until further notice.
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 01:33:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.86.140.51)
Every day's a holiday, eh!!
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 01:40:43 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.34.14.24)
Just checking in youse guys. Hope everyone is doing well.
An old Webley MkVI..can you believe it!!!
To keep it on topic...precision shooting ya know...I shot the first
group with it and it shoots one hole at 15 yards easy with 200 grn hardcast
SWC. She put 6 shots into the 9 and 8 ring from 15 yards...first time with
a pistol. Kewl!
I get to put my new .45ACP loading stuff to even better use...and
she can't claim I am a wierdo for loading ammo anymore LOL!
Does anyone know about what chamber pressure I can go to with .45ACP
in one of these? I am searching around for stuff on loads but haven't found
much other than a bunch of Lawrence of Arabia stories.....loaded some 185grn
XTP HP's over 5.9 grains 231 in Nickel cases for now.
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 02:02:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.207.52.60)
Bruce, You are sooo right - putting the slope correction on after
conversion to MOA or Mils is real straightforward. That's a neat site you
have there.
Austin, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 02:09:34 (ZULU) (your host
address: 64.217.73.251)
'lito:
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 02:09:39 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.34.14.24)
Hogs:
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 02:16:27 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.233.164.10)
If Sniper Country goes down for a few days, and Ken Hunter don't
answer his e-mails... here's why...
I saw a birdie today... it's spring, in the North East, USA - Wednesday,
April 11, 2001 at 03:03:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.116)
Hogs:
Check it out at: http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro/intro.htm
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 03:28:42 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.233.164.10)
'Lito
How different is that rifle Ken got than my HBV? Better? It sounds
nice. I have an interest is loading some 155's for the HBV. Where is a
good place to start? Primer type, powder, etc..
avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 03:34:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 66.68.123.104)
Has anyone here tried the GS HV bullets?
>They're monolithic copper bthp.
avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 03:47:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 66.68.123.104)
Oops. I'm sorry. that url is: http://skyboom.com/gscustom/index23.html
for the monolithic solids. Not an endorsement, mine are still on
order.
avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 03:49:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 66.68.123.104)
One sniper related question, two spotter related questions (allowed)
Bravo - Patriots
USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Still snowing in Arlen, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 04:10:05
(ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.173)
BMGMike and BrandX: You guys are to be congratulated on your tenacity.
I tried to post some of this kind of thing, but the honking of the geese
was deafening. My wind stuff was hooted right off the board.
USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 04:36:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
hunt in the mountains ?
germany - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 07:16:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.163)
Ref: Gear
No snow...
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 11:57:50
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
I need a little help from my friends. I am embarking on a .338 Lapua
Magnum project and can find very little reloading data. I have the Vita.
Reloading manual and have ordered a Lapua Manual. Has any one out there
worked up this cartridge and would they be so kind as to share their experiences
with me. I am particularly interested in bullet and powder selection for
tactically accurate full power loads. Any help you can provide would be
appreciated. Thanks to all in advance. Mike
mike Le Bherz <mleb3338@aol.com>
Eustis, FL, 32726 - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 12:05:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.12.106.26)
t wrote, "hunt in the mountains ?
you....you mean in ..... THIN AIR ???"
USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 12:19:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
To All -
2nd, when do you determine your E&E route?
3rd, do you have one or two E&E route setup?
4th, do you determine your location indicator before you get into
your hide?
5th, the hide, for urban, I figure timing is not as big of an issue
as say in a natural environment. In a natural environment, when is it best
to move to your FFP and create your hide?
6th, what is involved in creating a hide?
7th, what are the general no no's when creating a hide?
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 12:41:51 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.211.20.29)
Patron Pablito,
Thanks again,
Jim Wise
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Fl, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 13:34:40 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.36.28.52)
Ok guys,
Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 14:22:40 (ZULU) (your host
address: 172.148.223.207)
Torsten..
Don't even go there!!!
How much actual difference would we be talking in the real world
if when I gusess the angle I am off by 5 to 10 degrees on my guess??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 14:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.14.11)
Pat: This example is oversimplified, but the principle is sound.
USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 15:11:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Darren it's been many years since being in the military but it seems
the questions you wrote could be applied to any covert operation. So I
thought I would take a stab at it. In a Law enforcment situation I would
assume it would be completely different since you are basically a reaction
team driven by an event but in a military situation you are more likely
to have the opportunity to plan and train for the situation. And by all
means I am no expert and I like criticism so jump in anybody.
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 15:42:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 32.97.88.102)
RE: Pat's Error Analysis request
Austin, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 16:21:17 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.18.199.151)
PS Pat - re spin drift
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, Republic of Texas - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 16:33:10 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.18.199.151)
Ref: My $.02
I guess I'll have a Moon Pie and a RC to reminisce.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 17:23:03
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Pablito,
Thanks for the excellent article "Good reading for Old and New Dogs
alike." It now gives us a reference point to send people when they start
asking questions about how to get started in this endeavor.
HDR
Bartlesville, OK, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 17:35:27 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.197.207)
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
I guess I'll have a Moon Pie and a RC to reminisce.
Still snowy in Arlen, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 17:54:57
(ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.237)
Ok, moon pie... what about Caption Q or Soju from Korea :)
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 18:04:01 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.211.20.29)
If I've switched to Diet RC, does that mean I'm a modern kind of
guy? Or, as my dad says, that I'm watching my girlish figure? (Gotta tell
ya, I'd steer clear of any gal that had MY figure! Call me picky, but a
fella's gotta have limits!)
Excellent intro letter.... Kudos....
Guys, got an email asking if I knew someone, and I don't, but I'd
thought I'd try to help the fella and see if any of you know... The emailer
was looking for "Hook", a former sniper, WWII/Korea/Vietnam vet, who does
some riflebuilding, located "in the South".... didn't ring ANY bells at
all for me (the "Hook" I know wasn't in the military and doesn't deal w/rifles,
and the military guys I know, none go by "Hook"). If anyone might know
who this is, or have contact info, forward it to me, and I'll send it along
to this fella. Thanks...
*********
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 20:20:40 (ZULU) (your host
address: 165.176.6.34)
Darren,
From a position far enough away from the BG as you can get and still
be able to make a clean shot.
From a position that you can skooter poot quickly and quietly with
cover and concealment in the opposite direction.
From a postion that protects your 6 and flanks.
Don't set up too far away.
Don't forget your water or snacks.
Don't make noise, talk, or move around alot.
Don't limit your vision to tunnel vision, try to set up to see at
least 180 degrees around you.
Don't disturb anything that you don't have to like cleaning glass
to see out of, breaking limbs, stomping grass etc.
NC, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 21:32:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.55.218)
Amazing what you can learn on this site when lightning strikes don't
scare you off of it! Also found CWO Gooch's articles on MilDot from the
article on barrel breakin. That'll save me some cleaning, tho the Shilen
website advised breakin is only about 20 rounds.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 21:52:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
158.106.50.3)
'lito,
The windy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 23:05:52
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.207)
Bravo-
Don't blame me for the addiction to magpuls. I was told good stories
about these by Kevin OTGWN. You are just the latest victim with Andy's
dad semming to be on that slippery slope..........
1) Eagle and Blackhawk are now supposed to be making some of their
pouch designs MAgpul compatable. You will have to call and ask. LBT will
do anything in any design you ask for very quickly. All good companies.
2) A pouch design with the little "A3" clip can have the upper clip
taken off the lid and resewn onto a lower position on the lid-giving you
the room you need. My tailor did this for me on Eagle designs.
3) Heresy now--use a velcro adjustable lid. The type that connects
the lid to a velcro strip on the pouch front. Yep-noisy. I ask you this
though...having to get a new magazine kind of presupposes that you emtied
your first magazine in a noisy manner. I don't think the velcro sound would
matter much at that point. And some of the better velcro ones come with
a one way snap to make sure the lid doesn't come off while crawling.
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 23:09:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
65.11.197.193)
Mike T - but I did say that I thought you could do it cheaper yourself.
Gun Tape and Para Cord
These days I am mighty happy with the DPMS double clips - they offset
the clip enough - yet still allow for two to fit into a mag pouch - at
least the ones on my LBT Harris.
I agree on the velcro - if you are changing mags - I doubt the velcro
ripping is the noise you are hearing - I like the pull the dot fasteners
(as well velcro) cause the velcro can become encrusted in dirty and stop
functioning.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, April 11, 2001 at 23:51:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.71.223.140)
'lito,
What's this letter/article you're being complemented on????
Where can I read it?
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 00:02:57
(ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.211)
But Kevin-
Unlike you, the exchange rate here allows me to purchase these things!;)
Totally correct and I did use the 550 cord loops for quite a while.
I really like Magpuls much better. No digging around for the loop that
fell down.....A bonus is that the magazine has some protection during a
drop or reload. They also come in orange for training mags! Magpul marks
the orange ones as frangible though....but what do they know! They only
thought it up and invenbted it! LOL...
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 00:46:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
65.11.197.193)
Leslie: the guy you're looking for is Hook Boutin. Or 'ol Hookey
Boy'! HA! I give him much more respect than to call him that, but I have
heard him called that personally by his friends. Go to Autaugua arms, and
they'll get in touch with him for you. He's a REALLY cool guy to deal with,
didn't mind me picking his brains for a pretty good while (on my quarter
;-)). He's the original M-21 guru, the guy that built them all for the
82nd when they first kicked up production. The guy KNOWS his '14 spotters
weapons! Oh, and Killians was one of my favorites before Coors purchased
it and (in my mind) slacked WAY off on the quality. One of the beers I'll
be bringing to Sniper 2 is my take-off on the older Killians. At least
I like it ;-)
Bravo (who MIGHT
be back) <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Still in Arlen, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 01:00:05 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.180.85.75)
New guy round two.
I'm trying to back into a velocity based on bullet drop at various
ranges; I'm using the calculator on the JBM website and I am curious as
to how accurate I should expect this to be. The reason for this is that
I only recently purchased a chronograph and the first time using this will
be this weekend. What prompted this is that the loads that shoot well in
my rifles are loaded to 2,500 fps according to the Sierra Manual. When
I plug the drops into the JBM calculator and play with the velocity until
the drop is correct, the velocity is around 2,725 - 2,750 fps. What is
the deal here?
CCI standard primers (250??)
Sierra MK168
42.5 gr IMR 4320 and
40.5 gr IMR 3031
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 01:11:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.91.132.220)
Bravo and other brew dudes,
If ya haven't tried it yet, you gotta try Flag Porter. Supposedly
made with the yeast from a ship that sunk off the British coast in the
1800's...good stuff!
Sorry for the off topic post.
Resume firing.
Later,
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 01:39:13 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.197.24)
Bravo and PeteR,
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 01:54:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.199)
Gents,
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 02:00:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
66.26.22.240)
Paul,
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, Republic of Texas - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 02:05:57 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.217.73.251)
BMG Mike
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 02:27:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.91.132.145)
6.5 x 284 question:
I thought the 6.5 was a lighter bullet, so how does is buck the
wind better?
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 02:58:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
65.7.134.51)
Greetings,
I purchased a M48 Sniper Rifle recently. After researching it appears
it was used by Bosniac Muslims during the 1992-95 war there and probably
was a rifle in their Territorial Defense before the war. Much like our
National Guard. It only has the scope bases and they are an odd EAW mount
made for a Yugo firm with the help of Mauser. Have not located the rings
yet, but now that the mount is identified I do have hope of restoring the
rifle. This rifle configuration was common by both the Bosniacs and Serbs
during the war, but I still have no idea on what scope is correct. Does
anyone here have any ideas what scope models may have been issued or used
on the M48 rifles in use during that time. The link is to a fasinating
page I put together of the information I have to date on the rifle and
its history with some good pictures. Any info on this sniper rifle and
its use in the Balkans is appreciated.
Thank You, John from Texas
http://www16.brinkster.com/m88/m48sniper.html
John from Texas
<John@texastradingpost.com>
Dallas, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 03:58:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.217.255.119)
WES....... Just so you remember NOT to torque the middle screw to
65inlbs. on that Stealth ;-0
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 04:01:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.77.168)
Tom S,
Thanks for the PDF on the Rem trigger, I appreciated it..very well
done.
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 04:36:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.44)
Good evening everybody. I'm a newcomer to this board, and only recently
discovered this excellent site. In the way of introduction, I'm a sophomore
at the Naval Academy, originally from Dallas, TX, and I probably have less
shooting experience than any of you. Despite this, I'm very interested
in long-range precision shooting. I was selected to be a weapons instructor
for the incoming plebe class this summer (we qualify them in the M9 Beretta
and the M16A3). I thought I could definitely benefit from the wisdom of
anybody here who has experience teaching shooting to people. A lot of the
new freshmen will have never handled a gun, while a few will be prior-enlisted
Marines and sailors. One of the guys in my class was a Marine Scout/Sniper,
so his instructor was probably learning from HIM.
Scott Eschenbrenner <wse_ozzy99@hotmail.com>
Annapolis, MD, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 04:43:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 131.122.33.171)
"Sinister"
Stans already started whining about Kydex "pop", Thats the last
darn thing I'd worry about if I needed another 20 rounds of .308......
I doubt that I could do the new sling justice, No squirtgunz in
my larder :-(
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 10:48:20 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.183)
"It's held tight enough to not worry about running and doing other
gymnastics with, but not so tight that it can't be pulled right out easily!
"
Ugh Oh City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 10:54:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.183)
Moe - re Suppressor
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, Republic of Texas - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 12:30:15 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.217.73.251)
Hey Guys --
Semper Fi
San Francisco, CA, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 12:58:46 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.211.20.29)
Doc & Tony..
I was going through my records last night and found that I had test
fired 4 groups of 155MKs in my new 308 with the 24" Pac Nor barrel (1-12).
Using 46.5grs of Varget in new Lapua cases the 20 shot average was .491
and the average velocity was 2907fps.
The 6.5 bullet is lighter, in the 140 to 142gr range, but it is
very long and thin and has a very high BC usually in the .540 to .620 range
compared to the .450 and .496 of the 168s and 175s of the 308s.
I had forgot, the other day you had asked about the bigger recoil
lug on the 308s, if it was worth it or helped. I have one on mine and my
260 and they are both Darrel Hollands (He built the guns) and his theory
is that the bigger lug is better for bedding plus they are trued and have
a taper to them which makes it easier to remove the action from the beddded
stock. Hope this helps!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 13:31:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Doc & Tony..
I was going through my records last night and found that I had test
fired 4 groups of 155MKs in my new 308 with the 24" Pac Nor barrel (1-12).
Using 46.5grs of Varget in new Lapua cases the 20 shot average was .491
and the average velocity was 2907fps.
The 6.5 bullet is lighter, in the 140 to 142gr range, but it is
very long and thin and has a very high BC usually in the .540 to .620 range
compared to the .450 and .496 of the 168s and 175s of the 308s.
I had forgot, the other day you had asked about the bigger recoil
lug on the 308s, if it was worth it or helped. I have one on mine and my
260 and they are both Darrel Hollands (He built the guns) and his theory
is that the bigger lug is better for bedding plus they are trued and have
a taper to them which makes it easier to remove the action from the beddded
stock. Hope this helps!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 13:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Darren, the jury is out on the M40A3 Rifle. Some guys have said
they like the M40A1 better but many have now told me the new system is
better, so I wont say the guys hate it. So far I can not find any reason
the rifle is 17lbs. Doing the math the rifle should be only about one pound
heavier than the M40A1, unless you count the bipod and can that is not
really on the end. This whole project is still in the works, but I am confident
the Marines will have an excellent system when done. For info I have the
parts to make up a M40A3 and if Jerry can have it done in time I will be
taking it to Pendelton for two weeks, of field work in May. I have talked
with Dan Ross, Gary Schieder, Marti of Badger, Kelly McMillan, John Williams
of US Optics and some of the guys doing the work up on this project. All
are great at what they do and I doubt the project will end up anything
but first rate. By the way these guys all wanted to make the rifle up but
relaxed when I told them Jerry Rice of NorCal Precision was going to do
the work. Thats was fine with all of them. That should tell you something
about Jerry's work.
MikeMiller <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 13:58:43 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.85.148)
Mike, thank you for updating me from the other week. I found a site
that spoke highly of the M40A3.
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Fran, CA, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 14:15:11 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.211.20.29)
Darren: M40A3.. McBros built me a 300 Win Mag last year that's very
similar to the military version. A4 stock (marble OD pattern), Schneider
25" fluted barrel w/Vias brake, jewel trigger, sako extractor, forearm
rail adaptor, and I choose a Harris detent bipod. I put a US Optics SN6
12x with mildots and brackets on it. With 190 MK's it smokes and is sub
MOA. The only change I made was that I don't care for the saddle cheek
piece so I use one of Eagle's strap ons. Works great for me. For a 300
that thing is a tack driver. It loves 190 MKs and RE22 in all flavors.
Shoots 1/4 MOA consistently. Only problem is the 190s tend to go through
steel so I'm back to using my 308 for this year. If you have the opportunity
to get one you won't be disappointed.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 14:41:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
JR;
No I don't turn barrels. I can have them contoured to any contour
for $20.00 from K&P so it is silly to turn one. I don't know how I
got involved in this but I am picky about what barrels I use and yes a
1 in 12" twist works just fine with the 308 and 175 MK's. I have built
at least 100 308's with this twist and they all worked just fine!!!
Send your barrel to George and maybe he would like to play this
game.
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 15:04:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.81.87.28)
Third, I spoke to the Undude the other day about the new M40A3 from
the Marine Corps. He told me that the STA guys hate it. I am wondering
if there are any current STA guys who frequent this site that can provide
us their thoughts on their new rifle. However, if not, but there are others
on the site that have seen, touched or played with the rifle I would like
to hear your thoughts and opinions too.<<<<
IL, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 15:30:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.4.253.164)
Ken M, I never mentioned STA's. I only know you guys by Scout Snipers.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 16:08:55 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.85.148)
Ken M says "...and they had one rifle there with the bolt attached
to the rifle with 550cord because the bolt release was broken. That's unsat."
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 16:17:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Ken, you comments are very enlightening and very insight just as
Mike's are -- thanks!
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Fran, CA, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 16:33:27 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.211.20.29)
Undude, no offense meant, I was simply addressing an issue that
Darren pointed out, I was replying to his post. I hate the internet because
it removes all inflection. I would have made that statement in the same
sort of manner as mentioning I ate dinner at Hooter's last night. No big
deal.
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 19:03:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.4.253.164)
OK, we did the O2 bottle test yesterday. Strapped the cylinder to
a test dummy, cylinder filled to 2400 psi. One round of .308 into the top
half of the cylinder from 400 yards. The words "high order detonation"
would be adequate to describe the effect. Dummy is fairly well shredded,
only the bottom third of the cylinder could be located. The rest is probably
in a low Earth orbit.
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 19:56:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.86.140.51)
Undude,
the A4 stock, (Sniper fill), weighs 5.5 #'s...........
I just had one built, and this is the weight of the stock I have,
with adjustable fiber spacer system.
With 6.5x20 LRT, badgers, rings, and mounts.....weighs in at 17#'s...even.
Don't know if this sheds any light on the subject but I thought
I'd throw er' out.........
terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 21:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.214)
Whooah Jerry!
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 22:42:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
Guys -
I am shopping for new goretex and would like input from anyone who
has tried these products. I am either looking at the Parka and Bibs from
US Cavalry that the call The SEAL EWICS. Supposed to be lighter and less
noisy than the old stuff. The other I am considering is the reversable
woodland/desert stuff that Brigade QM sells. The US Cav stuff is about
$150 more than the revesable with my discounts. If anyone has tried either
of these I would appreciate a holler.
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Winddddddddyyyyyyy Michigan, USA - Thursday, April 12, 2001 at 23:09:34
(ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)
Terry, I dont doubt you one bit on the weight but Kelly McMillan
gave me the weight on the M40A3 Rifle Stock. It is slightly different than
the original A4. I will have one very soon and weigh the beast myself.LOL
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 00:05:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.201.203)
Cory: good thinking on bleeding it off so much of the pressure before
hand. I usually get them at well over 12K PSI, and I hesitate to even think
of what would have happened around THAT explosion!
Arlen, Texas, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 00:46:33 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.113)
Titan-
That US Calvary bib and parka (SEAL) is the best Goretex I have
ever seen or used. Yep-we bought some of that for our sniper team setups.
Great stuff. It actually is made in Oregon by Adventure Tech-but listen
to me on this- buy from US calvary unless you don't mind waiting for a
year. The price from US Cav is within a few dollars of factory direct also.
This stuff is the best out there I have seen for staying dry. It has wicking
barriers, goretex seam tape, and is softer and quieter than the rest. For
the price it had better be real good though.
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 00:56:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
65.11.197.193)
Undude,
The only difference I can see, is the A4, is an A2 forend, with
the hook butt.
I expect recoil of maybe a 22-250..or less.
this is of course including bedding Tit Dev.
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 03:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.184)
6.5 X .284 "Fag Mag". Leave it to the Army types to give an unmanly
name to a great caliber! Be that as it may, I'm a new, but great proponent
of the 6.5 X .284 Winchester/Norma round.
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 04:49:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.56)
Wes,
Rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 05:10:37 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
....can SEE the light at the end of the tunnel even, sheesh....
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 05:12:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
Does anyone know where I can get a lot of Hirtenberger match? I
intend to get a membership at Tac Pro south of Fort Worth. If so, at what
price?
avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, Texas, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 05:40:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 66.68.123.104)
Stan,
I GOT YOUR STEENKEN CLUCKING WABBIT here in Big City, By-Gawd, USA
- Friday, April 13, 2001 at 10:54:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.169)
Ref: Pest Control
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 11:32:58
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Kevin,
Steve and I will be there..If you need a partner, let me know, Bruce
H. from our place is needing a partner.
Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 12:03:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 164.58.10.126)
Terry, the forend on the A4 is right off the McHale not the A2 Stock
design. I agree I wish they had used the A3 forend instead but from everything
I can find the USMC spec'd the stock just the way it is.
Wes, you keep talking and it will cost me building a 6.5x284.
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 12:48:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.85.148)
Ref: "Tactical Shooter" vs "Accurate Rifle"
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 13:05:28
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Pete..
Fag Mag!! I "Represent" that remark:):):) Like Wes you can count
me as one of the Fag Mag fans!! Now if 'lito and Jeff A. would just help
me pick out the pumps and bonnet for my easter ghillie I would be all set.
In all the reasearch that I did when building mine, I came to the
same conclusions as Wes, have Pacific build your reamer. You will love
the 6.5x284 it smacks steel like a 300WM but is gentle on the shoulder.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 13:11:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Sir Wes,
Seems like the 6.5x308 IMP, is beginning to get a foothold.
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 13:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.188)
UnDude...
First off... after the first year or so, the articles went down
hill really fast... I remember one that was a "comparison" of cleaning
brushes... by a guy that knew nothing about cleaning a rifle!!!
Dave can't write the stuff himself. The last year and a half, the
articles were really trash (except for the ones from our guys ;).
And even if they weren't, how many articles can you write about
using Mildots... there are few true tactical scopes, and bins... so after
six or eight issues, there goes the optics reviews (and optical advertizing).
Many tac shooters don't reload... they're just in LE, or Military,
and can't, or have little or no interest, so there goes the loading articles
(and reloading advertizing).
We don't have the writers, we don't have the volume of readers,
and we don't spend the money... that adds up to failure for a publisher.
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 13:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.43)
Kevin, yeah I am a little pissed over the whole thing with TS. It
had all the potential in the world and was needed. Given the proper guidence
it could have been everywhere. Writers were some real world dudes that
knew what they were talking about. Gooch, Econ, Haugen, Ryan, Rogers,Chandler
(even if he just likes to stir the pot) and many more that did a great
job, with real background. No other magazine had that kind of writer. I
mean the real deal, not a bunch of made up Reserve Cop Majors who made
it up as they went. That was something special. The wrong advertisers were
sought after and wow guess what they did not sell thier products to us
snipers. Big surprize I doubt many of you buy Martha Stewarts Magazine
for the gun reviews either.
I have read and enjoyed his technical articles for many years and
I hope many years to come. He is also a very helpful guy. Long Live Peter
(certainly not a Reserve PD Major of a six man department)
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif., USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 14:03:38 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.85.148)
Pablito, I feel like the Col. Stir away.LOL
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 14:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.85.148)
Tactical Shooter,
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 15:21:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.41.41.50)
Terry..
On the 6.5x08Imp. I had a 243IMP and to this day it was the best
long range varmint rifle I ever shot. It was deadly accurate and pushed
a 70grBT over 3800fps.
I agree with you on this issue. I think that Dave went after the
wrong people to advertise in the TS. There were several times I wanted
to find a company and looked in the mag and they or any others like them
were not to be found.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 16:31:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
UnDude-ski...
He doesn't know how to even edit other stuff, or judge the quality
of the submitted articles.
For example, he has some guy that is a benchrest shooter, writing
"Optical" reviews for PS... the guy doesn't know doodly squat about optics,
but fills his articles with phrases like "Spherical aberration", and "Curvature
of field"... phrases from photography magazines that he doesn't understand,
and that don't apply to rifle scopes... but the readers eat that shit up,
cuz it sounds "scientific!"... Dave doesn't know the difference, cuz Dave
Brennen doesn't understand the articals.
But, I don't buy from magazine adds, and neither do you. I'm a life
member of the NRA (for 36 years), and I don't read their magazine hardly
ever... most don't even get opened once, before they go into the trash.
It's not because of the NRA... it's because there is a SERIOUS shortage
of articulate, knowledgeable, gun writters these days. You can't run a
magazine with poorly written, inarticulate articles, no matter how many
years the author has had in the buch... it won't work.
Also (and you can see it on this site)... the guys that will spend
$3000 to $5000 on a tactical riffle, already know who is building good
sticks... the beginners won't spend that kind of loot.
Any small product maker can put up a website for less that one months
addvertizing in TS, and get hits forever.
Remember that this site IS THE PLACE... we get over 2000 lurkers
every day... anyone that is interested in sniping, or tactical shooting,
IS HERE.... but if they get some interest, they couldn't find Tactical
Shooter on the corner magazine rack... most serious shooters haven't even
heard of PS... cuz it ain't on the corner newstand.
into, you could walk into Chandlers place and he would beg you to
buy something at a reduced rate, to keep from going broke."<
You don't throw money at advertizing, when you are selling all you
can make... you don't worry about advertizing budgets, when you're 18 months
behind in delivering product.
You spend that advertizing money on better machines, better people,
or better Pizza for lunch!
The first 18 months were good, then it took a header into the crapper...
readers don't subscribe for the ads, they subscribe for the articles, the
ads come along for the ride.
Dave Brennen can't edit Tactical articles, because he doesn't understand
the art/science of it... he can't judge if a submitted article is good,
bad, or raw BS... so there's nothing he could do.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 16:45:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.43)
Pablito/Paul, dude you are about as good at telling me you think
I am wrong, without pissing me off, as anyone I have met. I see your point
but disagree.
The Rock Rifle
The 338 Lapua GNA Precision Boulder
Schmidt and Bender 4x16x50 34mm tube PII Scope
HS Precison 338 Lapua
Barrett M99 50Cal
Calif, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 17:45:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.85.148)
AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!....Hogs........
You " Saw the tell tale ring".
I'm assuming you meant for case head separation......BUT, was this
after resizing, how many reloadings????.
Dos Sopatos
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 17:59:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.205.82)
Denied!!
I was looking for "The Thrilla From Manilla".
All I read was two men respectfully disagreeing.
The password thing must be working. ;-p
Those Novak night sights are real quality and BRIGHT!
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 18:12:59
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
UnDude-ski...
But understand this... Dave has an audience that he publishes to.
you might say that it's the untimate "Wanna bee audience". It's
the same audience that the high ticket sports car magazines publish to.
Nice pictures, nice wordsmithing (which IS important), but zero
information for the tactical shooter.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 18:44:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.111)
Ref: IMI Brass
Attn: Two Shoes
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 18:58:23
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Terry & Kevin..
I had the same problem with the IMI match brass. I got the "Ring"
after the 3rd reloading and then started checking closer and found some
after the second firing. I don't know what the problem was with the brass.
If your interested in a good match with a lot of shooting try the
D&L match in Wyoming. Its all shooting for 3 days and you get to shoot
your pistol and your assult rifle too. You and Andy can shoot as partners
if you want. Its a great shoot and you will meet a lot of great guys.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 19:26:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Kevin, Pat.......
Reason I asked is I think, since you have relaoded the brass, and
put it through a FL resizing die, this is where the ring is coming from.
I thought the same as you, a while back I did a cutaway, as the
inside "feeler", was inconclusive.
And for what it cost's (bulk), it's not even an option.
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 21:07:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.195.214)
AMEN BROTHER MIKE!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Yeah Bay - Yeaaaah, By Gawd, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 22:19:19
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.49)
Hey Pete! What does "F@#$%KING" mean?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 22:33:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.55.142)
Gentlemen,
send in a scope or $25 installed if you are purchasing a new scope
from us.
Takes just a couple of days to your scope.
175 Commonwealth Ct.
Winchester, VA 22602 - USA
(540) 868-2044 Tel.
(540) 868-2045 Fax
www.premierreticles.com
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, April 13, 2001 at 23:13:20
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.91.137)
Greetings Folks!
CCCPalifornia, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 00:05:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 158.252.197.58)
Ken, I HATE THE NEW NCP SITE! I hate it, I hate it, I hate it! Do
you know why I hate it??????????
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 00:27:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.55.142)
Ken?
CCCPalifornia, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 00:34:25 (ZULU) (your
host address: 158.252.197.58)
Damn Charles, a BIG WOOPS on this end! Slap me in the forehead!
Got so sexually aroused over the Nighthawk, that I had a name spasm.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 02:28:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.55.142)
???? I wonder how many letters it would take to convince Winchester
to do a run of Laredos in 6.5X284 ????????
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 02:46:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 151.199.82.102)
Good Friday the 13th to all!!
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 03:12:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
Two Quick Notes... then I will stop spamming the forum for the night.
Charles Webmaster To The Stars...
or sumthin... <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 04:00:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
158.252.197.198)
JR: Now you've touched a nerve. I'm far from (as Cory says) framming
on anyone (good saying, as fram makes nothing but crap), but I'd really
appreciate an explanation on your statement on JB bore paste. Don't get
me wrong, I'm not asking you to "explain yourself", just please explain
it TO me. I use the stuff, it's the only way I know of to get that hard
carbon fouling buildup from just in front of the throat. I don't use it
every time I clean, not even every 5th cleaning, but right about there
(every half case or so). If you don't use that, what's your cleaning regiment?
I know some folks that use the JB's EVERY time they clean, and some of
'em make me look like a rank ameteur. I've never had any problems with
it personally, but I'd appreciate your expert barrel making testimonial.
Or is the key that I'm not running bunches of it through the barrel (about
3 or so patches when I do use it)? I've caught that too much is a bad thing,
but it's still hard for me to believe someone could grind away enough barrel
to actually make a difference with the stuff. I know one of the Palma 20
uses it regularly, as well as a Patron on this site.
Boomhauer (Bravo)
<Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Arlen, Texas, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 04:42:06 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.180.85.244)
folks, you've got a heck of a site here.
doug <doug@intertrust.com>
USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 05:24:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.3.163.3)
"Accurate Rifle" vs. "Tacical Shooter":
Also, the content of AR is (somewhat) more fully reflective of the
full breadth of my interests. It aint all about tactical work in my book,
and I feel that we would all do well to pay attention to other shooting
communities, if for no other reason than the fact that we draw upon both
product lines and ideas that are not indigenous to the tatcial community.
I see the benchrest crowd as being our "pure research" division, where
the eggheads of the game push the envelope. Same thing with the highpower,
hunting, Palma, all those other guys. I like some of the old varmint hunting
stuff, even though there are no varmints to speak of to shoot at in my
part of the world. This is the history of the present state of the art,
and thus I feel it to be inherantly interesting.
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 06:07:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.88.84.155)
Spent the better part of the day, 10 hours worth, at the local range
today.
Sunburned Redneck Popping Squirrels in, Cowpie, Commiefornia, USA -
Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 07:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.27.232.201)
Folks...more 6.5 X .284
By the way, "they" look great in the review mirror!
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 07:53:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.69)
Bravo...
JB bore paste... HA! (as Pat would say)... brush yo' teeth with
it, not your barrels ;)
I'm with you. Winchester is the BEST domestic brass! Lapua is the
best brass.
Nope... after three divorces, I've been reamed enough :((
No, you're not. I agree. I'd rather a good long rifle magazine,
than a piss poor tactical magazine. TAR is better... better than PS even.
They publish some PS articles with a shovel.
26 gr of H322 is OK in one of my guns, not OK in another... the
max load will vary depending on the particular riffle... that's why they
tell you to start 10-15% low, work up, and look for the usual suspects.
>"Anyone out there shooting handloads? Thought not."<
USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 10:49:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.134)
Charles:
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 12:40:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
"...$1200 Powder Measure..."
I'll assume this comment from the letter in the TS discussion was
a 'general comment' rather than directed at the Prometheus, but am going
to reply with my $.02 ..... I did not see much interest from the 'sniper'
crowd for this machine. I suspect there are several reasons for this including
price (it was actually about half the $1200 mentioned) and lack of knowledge
of what it really does as well as rationalization that you don't take it
to the range to look cool like you can with a new riffle. The accuracy
potential of the prometheus is a step above what reloaders are used to..it
can resolve the addition of a single kernal of stick powder. If you wanted
to buy a scale to check it's repeatability it would cost you about what
the prometheus did. The speed and ease at which this dispenses weighed
charges closely approaches using a simple powder measure and this seems
'too good to be true' to a lot of folks hence they are skeptical about
the whole thing. So who does use this thing? Funny but it's the 'serious'
long range guys which I would have thought included many people on this
board. The USAMU and USMC teams use it, as well as David Tubb and Carl
Bernosky of Camp Perry fame and more than a couple of the Palma shooters.
The main man in F class at Bisley saw an immediate improvement in his groups
after getting a prometheus (308 at 1200 yds). Is it necesary in order to
do good work at long range? No it's not, but it is one of those 'incremental
improvements' just like the recently debated slope doping discussion. And
as the above list of users shows, it is the machine of choice for those
who want 100% perfection in their ammo.
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
Tx, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 14:15:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.193.186.144)
$1,200 for an incremental improvement? We have all been to a match
where a bunch of guys with $4,000 to $5,000 rifles got waxed by some guy
with a stocker. If your budget is hilariously unconstrained, buy the Ferrari
stuff. If you are a mere mortal, you would probably be better off spending
the $$ for loading components for burning out the barrel you have. Then
rebarrel. Given any reasonably good rifle, the greatest source of variability
in the shooter/rifle system is almost always the shooter. Match your objectives
to your constraints.
USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 16:12:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Brand, I assume thats your name. My comment on a 1200.00 powder
measure was not an attack on the P.. Guy. I have never used it. I have
talked to the man and he seems like a hell of a nice guy. My comment was
that Snipers would not buy it because of the price. This is Bench Rest
Stuff. Snipers use factory ammo or for those not government sponsered,
good inexpensive equipment to reload with. You dont need a 1200.00 powder
measure to reload sniper ammo. While we are at it the slope doper and Mildot
Master are all that is needed for angle correction in the real world. Look
around your AO (area of Opperation)and find where it wont work. Then get
back to me. Hell go take some shots and tell me when you factor in the
different non controlled enviornmental factors what happens to the math
equation. Just dont get to wrapped up in the slide rule ideas. By the time
you factor everything in the equation will change. Many of us just go by
the old:
Dope it (in a few seconds)
Dial it ( in two seconds)
Dump it ( in two seconds)
Mike Miller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 17:19:51 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.213.78)
ARD's again
VA, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 18:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.21.139.207)
WR Moore...
>"Wonder if this is a case of clueless dude in customer service
or a truly honest company that's saying everything they make is a POS?"<
How about getting the straight skinny on a product that works the
way it's supposed to, but comes at a price, and you're getting "The truth
about the price"! They are NOT a POS!
USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 18:44:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.80)
Trigger Guards --
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 21:31:10 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.24.217.195)
Greetings, Some very interesting posts as to the change from TS
to AR. Valid points all the way around. Somewhere i have the letter from
Dave Brennan when I sent one of my well known "RANTS" via letter &
phone. Suffice to say it fell on deaf ears. Bottom line is MONEY. yep,
the "tac" shooters will buy stuff BUT... for the most part, stuff that
WORKS. Not every widget & whatzit that comes along. There have been
several posts on some of the "gear" that "Other"shooters snap up in a heartbeat
so...what about the gear/articles WE would like to see/have/need that isn't
already addressed ? "Un-Dude" came up with a sling that has met a need
and seems to keep him busy. He still has time to write about scopes that
are waaaayy out of my league (couldn't resist Mike, no slam) but never
the less are of use/knowledge.
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
Sweet Home, AL, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 22:35:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 165.121.231.15)
Tom and 'lito...... I have to agree with youse guys about the TAR
vs. TS vs. PS debate. My interest in long guns includes not only tactical
shooting and kit, but also hunting (varmint & big game), collecting
old and interesting firearms, and handloading & load development. I
believe that TAR is getting closer to what I want in a single publication
than either of the others. What I'd really like to see is a combination
of the old Rifle and Handloader magazines (when Dave Wolfe ran the show)
mixed with the cream of TS and TAR. I know, I know wishful thinking! Oh,
and Mike - not ANY parts of G&A, please ;-)
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 22:38:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.65.197)
Bravo,
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 22:40:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
.308 vs 6.5/08 vs .260 Remington...
Frankly, and embarassingly, I don't have a drawing of the .260 Remington.
The difference is the length of the shoulder and neck.
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 23:11:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.146)
Will...
There is a little blurb on basic riffles and some other stuff...
Ken hasn't put a hot link on it yet, go here:
Yup... I had a .264, and loved it. But, like you said, the gun rag
writers killed it by recomending that it be used for everything from Prairie
Dogs to African plains game. Too Bad, good cartridge.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 23:48:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.90)
Bravo,
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 00:01:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.34.14.24)
Pablito - intro write up.
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 02:38:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
One other thing, I found something of interest about a sniper rifle
weight from the above article. On page 45, third column, fourth line from
the bottom, "Until it reaches eighteen pounds -- a sniper rifle is not
overly heavy, and we should not sacrifice accuracy or durability for a
comfortable carry." <<<<<
IL, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 04:01:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.4.253.164)
Trigger Guards:
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 04:25:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.88.84.155)
Darren...
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 07:09:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.26.62.88)
Ken M wrote:
"No, a solid rifle(perhaps 12.5-14.5lbs) adds stability when you're
huffing and puffing because you just humped up a hill with 100+lbs of crap.
But I'd rather have a 13.5lbs rifle and an extra 3qts of water, than a
18.5lb rifle. I'm going to shoot them equally well. I don't think there's
going to be any problems with lack of durability on a 13.5lb rifle. There
is no good reason to add weight just for weight's sake."
We were "daytripping" with almost nothing for a payload too!
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 12:22:43 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.61)
Ref: Heavy Rifles
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 12:38:13
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.23)
Kevin(Andys Dad),
Quit'cher Whining and go Shoot! ;-)
"Wheres dat Wascally Clucking Wabbit?" in BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA -
Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 13:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.27)
I am going to reposition the 2nd front swivel stud on the Rem700P
several inches back from its current location. This will allow me to hook
up the Undude's sling to the stock itself and not the bipod.
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, April 15, 2001 at 14:29:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.195.43)
Foist off: the 260/6.5 Sir Wes/6.5 IMP. Don't know why anyone would
work an Imp. If the 260 isn't enough for you, then there's the most under
rated cartridge in America (I think) the 6.5 Swede. From my Swede (24"
barrel) I can get the 140 grain Rem soft point "Kore-Lokt" bullet to go
2950 fps with NO PRESSURE SIGNS. I could go more, but ran out of case capacity.
A better job of powder selection would do better, I'm sure, I was just
using what I had on hand. After all, it WAS the darling of the 1000 yard
shooters for quite some time. It's no 6.5 Sir Wes though, and I won't advertise
it as such. The 284 case can handle (so I'm told) 3150+ fps with the Sierra
142 MK. In other words, the Swede is beginning to push and huff, where
the 284 is just beginning to shine. That being said, Fed GMM for the Swede
is about $10 per box normally. Factory supported. Can't say that about
the IMP. Although, I personally don't care, 'cause I load ALL my ammo,
with the exception of 22 rimfire, but why go to the extra headache of fireforming
brass if it's not necessary?