Sniper Country Duty Roster

March 24, 1999 to March 30, 1999


Folks, folks, settle down, I am not bashing the 7mm's!! They are a fine caliber, but they just don't live up to 30 magnums. They come closer than any other caliber, minus 6.5's. But we shoot many guns in the dungeon, and they bring me up many targets, and I have yet to see a 7mm magnum outdo a 300 win mag, on any level. All of 'em shoot under 1/2", but the 30's are far more consistent. Everything is shot with match grade components, whether its reloads or not.


How's things on the river? We shot a 260 today. It shot well. 23 inch pipe with a 1/9" twist, 120 grainer (my ballistician was very incomplete with the data I asked for, so bear with me) x grains powder, was getting 2800 fps average. It would group under .5" but was kind of inconsistent. I asked him if we had some 140 grainers around, he did, he reduced the charge, was getting average 2700 fps, said they just stacked one right on the other. Which tells me if you are shooting 120 grainers, go with the 10 twist, 9 is a little fast. But the 140's seem to love that 1/9", I want to see the 1/8" twists' groups and velocities. I know the 6.5x55 uses (by SAAMI specs) a 7.87" twist and an 8.66" twist. We shall further study the subject.


I remember some talk a while ago about Lazzeroni Arms out in Tuscon, AZ. Well I have a buddy who needs some specs on their 7.62 Warbird?? not sure if that is right, but I'm sure its close. Anyway, does anyone know the case length and head diameter specs on that round?? E-mail me if you do. thanks.

Catch ya on the back-flip,

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 00:07:34 (ZULU) 

The world has come to an end, Sarge with a 223????????

Just ordered scope lapping tools from Brownells. they come with instructions. Anybody have any tips that might supplement the instructions?

Sounds like NATO is getting ready to kick some major ass over seas. If any of you guys have to go, remember, one shot, one kill. And....good luck.

Para-sempre-fi, the Bolt
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 00:29:43 (ZULU) 

I hate to throw the A-bolt in the dumpster like B.Rogers suggest, but
I would trade it off if someone can suggest a weapon scope combination more suited for accuracy at about the Browning-sheperd
price range.

I know .308 has a great reputation for accuracy but want to stay with something delivering a little more punch.

Are there scope weapon combinations that will beat my A-bolts 3-4 inch 500 yrd. groups? Should i give up long range rifle and go back to pistol shooting? Should i shut up and go away?

Any help is appriciated. Thanks.
Ron <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 00:37:49 (ZULU) 

I know there are combinations that will beat the hell out of thoese groups but I mean at the Browning rifle - sheperd scope price range.
Ron <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 00:47:16 (ZULU) 
Good news for all McMillan Stocks will not be as hard to get in the near future. I talked with Kelly McMillan yesterday(A nice guy for sure) and told him of concerns for the long wait. He explained in detail why it is so long currently and how it will change in the summer. They have bought seve thenew machines so the wait will be down to about six weeks. They are also sending several stocks for Scott and I to test, including their new A4 model. I am excited and glad I will get to test them and put them against the HS Stock I already like very much.

Finishes on metal. I have used the Robar finish on a duty pistol and it did not last on it. I have used Brownells Teflon Finish on a pistol and two rifles. It has held up will and was very cheap and easy to do. I can see where these type of finishes could hold a slight amount of heat in, but I do not think it is significant, and I have not noticed any negative effect from its use.

Al, glad you liked the review, great stock.

Torque: I use 65 inch pounds for my PSS Trigger Guard and the MK4 Ring Nuts. The rest of the screws I don't torque.

The UnDude Mike
Calif, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 00:50:36 (ZULU) 

RE: HELP in Constructing Home-Made Ghillie Suit

I am embarking on my first attempt at making a ghillie suit. For those of you have tread this path before me, are there different "types" of burlap that are "better" than others, or is good 'ol potato sack burlap sufficient? And where do you find a good supply of burlap?

Any advice on an appropriate fire retardant product?

I appreciate the advice.

Jason <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 01:23:38 (ZULU) 

Hey girls,

Here's a sniper competition for youse:

Send one sniper team from any military branch that wants to play into Serbia. Whichever team brings out Slobodan Milosovich's scalp wins!
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 02:28:22 (ZULU) 

1) Pablito, thanks for explaining clip-slotting... Someone tried to tell me it meant that it was modified to take magazines, which I thought was ODD for a sniper rifle; stripper clip modification makes sense.

2)Winchester/Remington floorplate issue: I was aware of the fact that the Winchester used steel and Remington used aluminum. It seemed odd, though, to modify the Winchester to fit a Remington instead of just machining a a steel version of the Remington; is there another advantage to using the Winchester design? It seems to me to be more complicated, and thus less desirable, for an operational rifle...
Also, how much of the M-16 is aluminum? Steel is stronger, but does the difference in strength merit the effort to replace it?

3)Steve: I like your 'stick to your guns" attitude, and I personally can't say your wrong... like I said, I'm looking for info on it before I break the piggy bank open to get one. However, I've been in contact with Garth and he's made some comments that contradict others that he's made to me. Also, others have talked with him, too, and have yet another version to tell. SO....

My intention: I'm going to collect ALL of this info. Once I have enough pennies, I'll buy it, mount it, and test it. I'll record all my data, and then report the results. (Any donations to help fund this scientific experiment are welcome! Please email me if you'd like to contribute!) ;-)

Rock <>
TN, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 02:31:13 (ZULU) 

Ron'no don't go away. Just pack that old lousy Browning up and send it down here. I'll dispose of it properly for you. Be careful with that scope you might jar the zero. I wouldn't want the guy who picks up all the stuff out at the dump to have to rezero it you know. ahem!
Maybe you could trade it to me for one of those Savage scope combo deals (with the 4 power Simmons) at Walmart. I could get one I think maybe I could find one in their dumpster. Be careful when you pack it! On second thought get one of those air freight gun cases and send it freight collect. I'll let you know when it's been safely disposed of. I had a rascally rifle like that one time. Only thing to do is get into my "safety dump" ASAP.

B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 02:40:11 (ZULU) 

YEP - Sarge with a .223! BUT can anyone out there tell me what ALL my rifles (except the .22LR and I'm not so sure about it!) have in common?? They are a .223, .308 and a .30-06! Gee guys who can guess this one! And NO the only Savage is the .223!!! How many different answers will Sarge get!!! Damn am I being a sm***a** tonight or what!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 02:50:16 (ZULU) 

Ooooooohhhhhhhhh peteR: Good Luck finding us in your homey state. We'll be there this weekend, raisin' a ruckus, and chasing them purty legged West Virginny women.

Mike: You mentioned an interesting point about painting your barreled action. How did the Brownell stuff work for you rifle? I am going to do the same thing with a barreled action I should be getting back in about two weeks. Its going to have a stainless steel Douglas XX a/g barrel and I was thinking about painting (or baking) the paint on. Any sgguestions on that anyone? I've got a McMillan A-2 stock for it with a Decelerator pad on it which I picked up from a private source. I'm going to paint that to match the bar/act. Any suggestions on that (p.s. the stock is painted black).

Thanks again from everyone for the input on the Douglas barrels. I certainly do appreciate it.

Rick: I was thinking about the bow-flage, but I want to apply something more permanent. If I apply paint to the Barreled action, wwill that change the barrel harmonic in any way. Inquiring minds want to know!

AL Ostapowicz <>
Ready and Rip-Roarin' to Git on Down to West Virginny from , O-Hy-er, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 02:53:03 (ZULU) 


Best Ghillie suit for your purposes will be.................

Yep, you guessed it!





BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 03:03:26 (ZULU) 

Sarge: Let me see????? DUH? (Thats West Virginny talk for the wheels are trying to turn but haven't quite made one turn yet.) They are all "military" calibers so ammo is cheap and readily available. Is that right? C'mon Sarge, what do I win? What do I win? Its gotta be sumtun good. C'mon Sarge, what do I get. Or am I going to have to go to your hide again and get it? Don't make me do that! Remember what happened the last time you crossed the Polish Nation!! Anyway its great to hear from you again!

Al Ostapowicz <>
Feeelin' Smart tonite in , O-hi-er, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 03:07:29 (ZULU) 

C.C., TEXAS, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 03:10:48 (ZULU) 
Ghillie suits: Standard burlap will work just fine for your suit.
Just don't make a Christmas tree out of your suit with it.
Go to any fabric shop or check Wal-Mart, K-Mart for your burlap. You can find different colors there, but your best bet is to just buy standard brown burlap and color it yourself with RITT dye.
You can get some really good natural colors by mixing different colors together.

Fire protection: Don't go near open flames!!!

I'm working on an article for Sniper Country on ghillie suit construction thanks to all the information that I've collected from
different sourses over the past year and a half, but I want to test it under fire with the June S.M.T.C. basic & advanced course before I submit it.

Am I sure of what I'm getting into? NO!!! But it's going to be fun anyway you look at it. Check your E-mail, Dude.

Hey!!! You wasn't suppost to take the lady VOL'S out drinking BEFORE the game!!! Now what are we going to do? ;-)

D. West <>
night shift working , in IL., USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 03:24:58 (ZULU) 

Al, and all the Email I've got on the Brownells Teflon. First I am not an expert on this, but I will tell you what I have experimented with. I cleaned the bbl'd action with Acetone. Let it dry. Heated it slightly and I mean slightly with a Propane Tourch. I sprayed with the Teflon, let it sit the time specified on the can (about one hour if memory serves me) and put in the oven. Well my oven is not big enough to put it completely in so I left the door open and rotated the action every few minutes. Be sure to not get any in bore or chamber. I didn't do the inside of the action or the bolt lugs/face areas. I am next going to experiment with a combination of colors and try for a camo effect. Pray for me on this one.

About Torque, hell 65" pounds is what the FBI told me to torque at. Why I listened I don't know but works for me. If someone else knows something let me know. I don't want to be a mushroom. Fed you know what and kept in the dark.

Calif., USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 03:27:19 (ZULU) 

Hey Rock...
The Quantico contract is about 10% of Unertl's military contracts... they make tons of other optical stuff.
I would guess that they might re-think the civilian thing over again, but they are so back-ordered, that they aren't wanting for work.

> 1) What does it mean to clip-slot a receiver?

A slot is cut on the front edge of the back receiver bridge, then two small notches are put in the walls of the slot... it is like the slot in Springfield '03, and military Mausers so that stripper clips can be used. The Remington .308 40x repeater rifles have this slot. Some onepiece scope bases use this slot for more support.

2) Why use a modified Winchester floorplate?

Not to sound like I'm bashing Remingtons... but the Winchester floorplate is solid steel, and the Remington's is aluminum. The USMC spec for the M40 series rifles is a steel floorplate/triggerguard. The trigger guards for both of them are aluminum, but they are easely replaced.

Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 04:09:07 (ZULU) 

It looks like its about to hit the fan in Kosovo so all you active dudes that might get deployed, watch your back and kick some butt. Us homeboys from New Jersey support you. Good Luck !! De Oppresso Liber
Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 04:22:52 (ZULU) 
Well Al, you win.....ALMOST! All military yes, readily available yes, but here is where you LOST!!! CHEAP??? Where do you get YOUR ammo??? If it's cheap I might be talked into buying some!!! :-)
And for those "camoing" your weapons let me know! So far I'm MAJOR CHICKEN to try anything permanent!! AND I sure ain't no artist so someone tell me where I can get some good patterns. Anyone tried having a "custom T-shirt" place do it?? After all they DO have the air brushes! Al e-mail me on this!


Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 04:47:15 (ZULU) 

Hey B. Rogers
Us kansas boys are kinda slow but i'm gettin the picture. Think ill tinker with that ol A-bolt a while longer. I have been getting .4 inch groups at 100 yrds with 63.5 gr of IMR 4831 and sierra 150 gr BTSP with the BOSS set at 2.7

Would going to the matchking bullet or hornady 162 gr BTHP help any? these are probably stupid questions but i have shot 1911 pistols most of my life and everyone knows pistol powder dulls the brain.

thanks for any help.
Ron <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 05:19:01 (ZULU) 


Please don't make any political comments on the "Duty Roster".

The situation is much too complicated.

Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 07:36:19 (ZULU) 

Leupold has changed the turrets on the latest 3.5-10M3LR to reverse of the ones previously offered ie. clockwise rotation on the elevation turret moves impact lower on most recent production. Leupold has not changed the part number 51850, and told me that they intend to also change mark IV M3 turret rotation in the near future. This change is very recent and I have received two scopes of each rotation direction recently, they are indistinguishable in without opening the sealed boxes. The windage turret has also been reversed.

harry dwyer <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 08:13:29 (ZULU) 

Have a bud that is an expert air brush wizard. He custom paints fishing lures. If you could give me the paint specs, i'll ask if the brush will handle it. If it works, I will put a review and pic on the roster.
I assume that degreasing is the main problem. Advise on a degreaser that will not ruin the matte black on the action/barrel and the scope will be helpful. Acetone can have a bad effect on fiberglass(from past experience repairing fishing rods). Suggest that if you want to degrease fiber stocks that you use alcohol.

Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 13:02:42 (ZULU) 

re. Degreasing for painting using acetone, if the scope is included in the degreasing would worry about the "O" rings in the scope, don't know that this would be a problem, but until had some hard info would worry about it.
Dave in OK <>
Ok, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 14:25:37 (ZULU) 
Ron;Seriously .4 @100 and the groups 3" @500 ain't bad at all. Now don't be misled by some of the cybergroups that are quoted here. Some of these guys are real serious and do take a lot precautions and shoot some high priced stuff and others just lie a lot. IF you can lay in 3" @500 you won't do much better unless you spend a couple thousand and a lot of time on scopes and rifles. I've been to a couple goat ropeins where some of these fancy guns and shooters were and they do go to a lot of trouble but just cause one gun shoots a inch and one shoots .5 don't mean the one with the .5 is gonna live.
And it don't mean it will do .5 when it needs too. In general a gun will do what it will do and a real good gun will do it just about all the time. But shooters is something else. Some people can't stalk a milk cow and some can pat a Pronghorn on the butt. Some can do fine in the city and some know only the sagebrush. Bein from OZ you probably have met the wind. Lots of things involved with "Snipin".
B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 14:49:11 (ZULU) 
About Acetone. It will eat through just about anything if allowed to sit on it. Wipe bbl'd action with it on a rag. Get a thick rag and fold over so it never gets to your skin, it will make you sick/kill a few morw brain cells. I would use Alcohol on the scope and the stock. I would not put the scope in the oven, or use a process on the scope that needs heat to work. If you want paint I have used "Hunters Specialties" brand many times and the colors are good and works for me. It does not last like Teflon, but you can get it off of the SS BBL with Acetone if you need to. Not likely that you can get all of it off whith out a great deal of work on Matte Black Finishes.

Kosovo: Lets pray no more blood shed. Not political just no more suffering.
Calif, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 15:59:05 (ZULU) 

Jeff B,
Your on the right track but you missed the point on throat erosion. The big throat eater is ususally a combination of large amounts of powder and a small bullet diameter. In fact your 7MM mag will be just as hard on throats and barrels as the 300Wm if not more so because of the smaller bullet diameter. Its like using a torch to heat steel, if you heat a larger area it takes longer to burn through than if you concentrate the heat a smaller area and this is the same effect you get when shooting. Your case is a blow tourch for a milisecond, concentrated into a small area, thus the smaller the area the hotter the metal gets. I hope this didn't get to far off track in my translation.

Cold and windy on the river!! Iam out of bullets, so I can't shoot, my order should be in this week. I tried some 95vmaxs that shot great in my sporter but didnt shoot well in the heavy barrel. I tried another load with the 140Amax and it didn't shoot well either so I will keep trying and let you know if I find the magic load for them, so far it loves Sierra 140 and 142s.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 16:12:17 (ZULU) 

Pat: I understand where you are coming from on this point.Having an extremely over bore cartridge like 7 mm STW,.30/.378 Weatherby,or even the .264 Win Mag is going to produce very quick throat erosion like you mentioned.

However,you may be correct that both barrels may in fact last the same number of rounds.It would be interesting to find out.I personnally wouldn't have thought that to be the case.

I would have thought that the much greater amount of powder burned in the .300 Win would play a bigger part in throat erosion even when the bore diameter relationships between the 2 cartridges was considered.

Jeff Babineau <>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 17:01:57 (ZULU) 

looking for proper procedures for barrel break in on a Rem 700 vs-sf-p. please be very specific. By the way I think this is an excellent site.
geoff <>
Lillington, nc, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 17:05:19 (ZULU) 
Acetone: Nasty stuff for your health. In fact so nasty that I avoid it and degrease with other products. And I'm normally not dainty about that sort of thing...

Kosovo: While I understand and sincerely appreciate TorF's admonitions I still want to say that WE SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!

Dave <>
Still waiting for my TBA M40A1 in San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 17:49:18 (ZULU) 

GEOFF: there are extensive descriptions of barrel break-in on this site in the Hot Tips & Cold Shots section (see link at the top of this page), and at
Brian Meyette <>
Cornish, NH, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 18:24:14 (ZULU) 
Thanks B. Rogers
sounds like i will be sticking with the browning for a while at least.
Not a totaly bad thing. I know what you mean about shooters. I shoot pistol compitition and have seen many a 2,800 dallor gun come in second or third or seventh place becouse the man thought the money would buy his victory.

Better to have spent 1,000 of it in ammo and put in some range time.

So far the Browning has been pretty consistent but i have yet to really try it with the barrel hot as i let it cool for a minute or so between shots. Going to do some cold barrel shot checking soon also.

Good idea someone on here had about keeping the targets in a book for reference. Keep the good ideas coming.
Thanks all, and God bless.
Ron <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 19:10:31 (ZULU) 

Jeff B,
I have experiecned this first hand. I had a 22-250IMP and it took about the same amount of powder as my 308 but in a short period of time my CM barrel was toast and I didn't shoot it in prairie dog towns either. The throat was gone in less than 1000rds. I now look to the size of the bullet diameter to see how much life I will get in relation to the powder charge.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 19:50:23 (ZULU) 
DAVE & MIKE M; this is a tad off subject, but I appreciate your coments on the use of acetone. I have used it many times, with no concern at all about getting it on my hands. In fact, I have used it many times to clean my hands if I get other stuff like resin or spray insulating foam on them. WHOA! Guess I will be more careful about that in the future! Thanks for the tip.
Brian Meyette <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 21:10:07 (ZULU) 

Solvent toxicity is a real and serious problem. This has been expounded on just about "everywhere" shooting. Normally it will do an number on either the Liver and Kidneys, or the CNS (Central Nervous System).
Don't play tough-guy, use good airflow, disposable gloves, and seal solvent soaked rags in old plastic grocery bags or soda bottles (they fit right over the muzzles up to .880" diameter or so to catch patches) without fancy "Boar-Hog" adapters.

Get a Material Data Safety Sheet (M.S.D.S.) from the manufacturer which they are required to provide under law. All components of a product, toxicity, and exposure hazards will be covered. One of the few good things from OSHA.

You may thank me later in life..........


BIG CITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 21:23:45 (ZULU) 

Hey all, I'd have to go with Torf on this Kosovo issue. Lets leave it to the spin meisters of the world to hash out. It is WAY more complicated an issue than our media is givin it credit for. If we delve into it here we will waste a lot of space on what amounts to a civil war that...well, never mind. I do not want to go down that road.

Anyway, obviously we support our troops. They are pretty much directed by the whim of politicians. But let's leave the ass-kicking comments aside this time around. This is too close to our own civil war in complexity. It ain't cut and dried. Who was right in our own war? The North? The South? They BOTH had very good and valid issues to defend. Thank god no external power chose to invade us and settle matters.

My advice in terms of this roster: Please leave the issue alone for now. I know that is hard but there is some seriously F**ked up issue at large and we need not drag this site into them.

Thanks for your understanding.
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 21:24:34 (ZULU) 

I have just purchased a Steyr SSG P11. I would like to have the barrel fluted, is this possible? If so can someone recommend a source? I was also considering having the barrel/receiver/bolt cry'oed but an article in PRECISION SHOOTING (3-99,pg 7) has given me pause. Any comments and suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Tom
Tom <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 21:27:46 (ZULU) 

Excellent statement re: acetone. Get it on your skin, it's absorbed systemically. Inhale vapors, they're absorbed systemically. It attacks liver, kidney,CNS and pretty much everywhere else. We kept MSDSs on a lot of stuff in the pharmacy. Acetone be way nasty.


Thanks again for Walt's no. I'll call him for you.


You tried any imr 4064 in 260 w/ 140 gr? Hopefully, gonna test some more this weekend.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 23:16:06 (ZULU) 


I have tested a Technicarbon Dynamics Stock.
1 - It took 3 months for delivery.

2 - For shooters with large hands the bottom of the "thumb hole" area tends to make contact with the lower part of the hand at the wrist. This can cause some interference with a good shooting grip.

3 - I would strongly recommend if you purchase this stock to have it properly bedded. This stock was checked by my gunsmith and he advised it would need bedding.

4 - The grip area is lower than I personally would like. This caused the shooting hand to be low and almost below the trigger.

Other than the extremely long wait for the delivery it appears to be a well made stock if it will fit your hand. Have it inletted for an accessory rail and it will make a good stock for recreational use. I will say it has a better feel than the UARS stock. I'll stick to a McMillan A-3 for serious work.appe

Bruce G. Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce G.Buell <>
Jax, FL, USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 23:37:13 (ZULU) 

Hi. acetone poisoning can occure through skin absorbtion but is more pronounced when inhaled or ingested. Signs and symptoms include
nausea/vomiting (possibly bloody emisis), tachycardia (rappid pulse),
and hypertention. Long term exposure to acetone can cause demylination of the nerve fibers.

While not an atomic bomb waiting to go off some proper precautions are advisable. after all what is the use of shooting good groups if we cant live long enought to lie about is as old men?

stay safe.
Ron <>
USA - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 23:55:27 (ZULU) 


Sorry I didn't just mean acetone,

Copper removers, bore solvents, and related balms and ointments are some nasty customers too. So be warned you west virginia bound folk that dab some Shooters Choice behind the ears of a significant other, or was that Jeff and Babs? ;-)

Darn, gotta go clean the firestick, now wheres that SCOTT airpack?


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 00:03:55 (ZULU) 

Hello all,

the specs for the Rem 700 action (trigger guard whatever) screws are 65"#'s of torque, you guys had me all confused there for a minute, I thought we had discussed this before, there are only two screws. I thought maybe you were talking about the ADL's, my error. Maybe that is why we only offered the torque wrench set at 65"lbs. Hey, we got in one of those a-square, b-square??? one of those squares, the bipod people, well we got one in at work today. One of my partners in grime is givin' it a field test soon, which I will be accompanying him, we'll give 'er a workout and if all goes well, H-S will probably add them to accessories.

Hey, I put an order in for the Pro-Series 2000 pistol, basically an XP-100 with an H-S receiver, haven't decided what caliber yet, just started payin on it, leaning towards 223. I have too many one hole targets @100yds with these bastards, I must own one. What scope would be recommended? I'm lookin' at a Burris 2x7, haven't delved into the scope end too much yet.


Prairie chickens were rare, but the snow geese are like rats. Season is still on for 'em. 20 per day bag, unlimited possession. I had a cousin come back last week, he was trampin around the sloughs with a cow sillhouette, sneakin' up on 'em. Wish I had a camera, looked funny as hell. Maybe that would make Scott's photo album, the goose hunters ghillie suit!!! Cardboard cut-out of a cow with a hand-grip attachment. Oh my.

One last thing, then I will be gone:

That Lazzeroni 7.82 Warbird I spoke of yesterday, my partner in grime was wondering if he could use that in a Remington or Winchester action, which is why he wanted to know case length and Head dia, which I have been told is 2.80" and 0.580" respectively. Any info would be appreciated.


JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 00:39:54 (ZULU) 

New Questions!!!!!!


Then stock grip on the Colt AR15 Match is not comfortable. Does anyone know of an aftermarket grip that has a better feel such as the Stock Options Tactical, Hines or the Royal Arms Target?

Does anyone have experience with the AccuWedge?

Does anyone have experience with the Brownell AR15 chamber brush?

Has anyone had experience with the Badger Tactical Latch?


Do both the trigger guard screws torque to 65"#


Need advise on bore guides, chamber brushes, bore brushes and jags, which manufacturer and model. For bolt guns and for an AR15!

Anyone have experience with the EXD Verticle Reticle Instrument?

Does ANYONE use Locktite or fingernail polish on scope base screws?

Does anyone use a scope level or anti-cant device?

GUESS YOU CAN TELL I'VE BEEN IN THE BROWNELL CATALOG!! Momma told me if you don't ask a question, you sure won't get an answer.


Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 01:29:34 (ZULU) 

Last post for the night!
Went back to find information on bipods, not much there except for the Versa Pod. Need evaluation of various pods for FIELD use.

Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 02:31:26 (ZULU) 

I'm developing loads for my 700PDM and would like to know
if Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle Primer quality and performance is comparable to Federal 210 ?

if anyone has used IMR 4895 (Talon reclaimed it from military ammo) or Accurate 2460 ?

I'm thinking about using 175 gr. Sierra MatchKings


Andrew <>
Broomall, PA, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 03:09:11 (ZULU) 

What is the effectivnes of the Colt Ar-15 as a medium range Sniper rifle?
Simon <>
Illinois, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 04:06:35 (ZULU) 
Toxicity: How bad is Hoppes #9? Best smellin' cologne I ever used. Seriously, is this stuff that toxic?
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 04:12:48 (ZULU) 
In regards to the scope level. I have always looked at things like this with a lot of suspicion. I have seen the light, however. I did not shoot the rifle, just witnessed the event. A very good marksman with a well set up PSS used one for the first time during practice several days ago. The groups that were shot with the level differed only one way from the groups fired without. They were all, every one of them, smaller. Once in a while the human factor would creep in, but the groups were consistently smaller. FWIW longline
longline <>
wa, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 05:37:33 (ZULU) 
Bolt: Both Torsten and I use the Phrobis MkII 10x42 riflescope with internal Anti Cant Device. It's a weighted indicator that lets Gravity does it's work (i.e. there's a weight on one side and a pointer on the other side of a small spindle). It sits on the thick part of the lower vertical wire. While I can't speak for Torsten, I feel that during nowmal target-shooting, this type of ACD has little function. It's movement is a bit to coarse. I feel however that during field operations it'll definately prove it's worth, especially when you are forced to rapidly aquire your target and fire. I certainly prefer an internal ACD over an acternal one like the ScopLevel or other bolt-on ACD's.
Sad thing for you is that the Phrobis is very rare.... You'd almost automatically end up buying a SA-scope instead..... Sorry...

Bruce: Thanks for the input! Walt at Technicarbon now promises 2-3 weeks delivery time. I've heard stories confirming that, so I guess one of the issues is solved.


Stefan out!
Stefan <>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 11:43:24 (ZULU) 

To Tom, Re. Steyr SSG PII.

The Steyr barrels are already thermally destressed from the factory.

The Steyr-barrels are also hammerforged. Fluting HF-barrels seems to be more difficult than with conventional barrels.

Oslo, Norway - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 11:49:58 (ZULU) 

That Brownell catalog will do serious damage to your wallet and when your lady finds one of the invoices, she will do serious damage to you as well. What a great toy catalog! I use blue Loctite on scope base screws. Leupold says you don't need it with Torx head screws. In fact they say to put a drop of oil on the screws before you tighten them down. Old habits die hard for an old f**t like me. For cleaning rod guides, bolt gun type, I would go with Sinclair International. They also make one for an AR-15; but I'm not familiar with it. Their cleaning jags fit Dewey rods. You can find them at or call them at (219) 493-1858. Good luck.
Doc <>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 13:10:36 (ZULU) 
Bolt: An Accuwedge is the cheapest single accuracy enhancement you can buy for an AR-15 rifle. It won't make a great rifle better, but it will remove any looseness between upper and lower, and can improve some rifles. Besides, there is no alteration to the receiver, it just slips in. This is literally a five cent part, so be careful when looking to buy one, you can get ripped for up to seven dollars. Check out several places to see the price difference. As I said, it is not a panacea but it does tighten things.
Fred <>
People's Rep. of, MD, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 13:40:36 (ZULU) 

I have used the Federal 210M Primers as well as the Rem 9 1/2. Both worked well for me. IMR 4895 is what I use for the M1A. When I loaded for long range in my boltgun, I used Varget with the Sierra 175's. The 4895 is my favorite for the M1A gas system due to the pressure curve of the powder. ( Burning Rate )
I have never used the Talon pulldown powder, but it should be okay.

Best regards,
Bill B <>
KY, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 13:43:33 (ZULU) 

Back from the hills! Why shoot little bullets, when the Army tells an Apache team to do what you tell them to?
ED <>
CP Greaves, Bliss, Mighty fine Republic of Korea - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 13:55:14 (ZULU) 

Brownells is now online if you are interested + online shopping. saveit to favorites!

Dewey or Precision Reloading,(in CT.) are my favorites for cleaning rods. Precision Reloading offers a really nice cocobolo handle rod for those with opulant tastes.

Sinclair or Stoney Point make great bore guides and they should last a lifetime.

Locktite #242 (blue)for non-permanent installations, web search for their address and spec sheet, i done forgot it.

Ed Engler, you are oh so right agin!


BIG CITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 14:41:15 (ZULU) 

I'm looking for information on Landtech rifles what's the story on them good, bad, ugly?

Also need some feedback on MarkIV M3 6X

Thanks Greg
Greg <>
USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 15:02:35 (ZULU) 

Bipods: I have used Parkerhale, Versa Pod, Harris Swivel and non swivel types. Parker/Versa are heavy duty but I don't like the wobble they have. I have tried a set screw and elastic to bind them to some success, but I prefer the Harris Swivel. It has the cant ability but no wobble. I have heard they break but I haven't had one break so that is my course.

I have had great luck with the Remington primers and find no difference between the Fed and Rem. IMR4895 I have found to be a great powder for 168's but with 175's I use IMR4064 or Varget, more velocity at lower pressures. For the gas gun, 4064 is what 308 Mil Match was loaded with for 168's, according to my ammo book.
Calif, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 15:38:05 (ZULU) 

Jeff A,
I haven't tried 4064 yet but I have some so when my bullet order comes in I will give it a try and let you know. Have you tried the 4895 yet?? It really shoots well at 100 and 200 for me. I had a gentleman call me who is building a 260Imp and we had a great talk and I sent him our reloading data on the 260s. He wants me to try some VV540 in the 260, have you tried any of it yet?? If so how does it shoot?? It will take a while for me to get some to try. He said he would keep me up to date on how his improved does and I will let you know how it works out.

Any ideas or comments on the improved that may help him out??

What powder were you guys using when you shot the 140s?? If you know.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 15:46:07 (ZULU) 

I've got one quick question. Has anyone used a scope from USO (United States Optics)? I've been looking at some of their sniper scopes and would like any information anyone has, good or bad. The scopes come with a life time warranty and the specs look quite nice.

Dark Apache
Dark Apache <none>
USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 19:37:44 (ZULU) 

To All,
Has anyone seen or know anything about the new Nikon range finder???? What happen to the "New" range finder that was going to come out at the Shot Show weren't we suppose to get some sort of a report from someone on it???

Read your review on the H&S, good job. I wish I could afford one, I would love to try one out. Your also right about Janet, she is a class act and takes good care of the customers. Whenever I have stopped out at H&S she has never been to busy to take the time to talk to you and that is rare in this day and age.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 20:13:37 (ZULU) 

Bolt, My SR-25 uses the same stock parts as an AR-15. If you are looking for a new handgrip, I tried one of those fancy target grips with the adjustable palm rest at the bottom. It worked well, but the rest moved around some and poked me in the back when I was packing the rifle. I ended up using the Pachmyer grip, it feels good but is sturdy and low-profile. I think it's a good compromise between target and field use.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 20:43:49 (ZULU) 
Hello, gents!!

ok, heres the public post, we'll see how many e-mails I get about this, ha!!

H-S offers the staineless floormetal and DM assembly for the Remington 700 short and long actions. I do not know the availability of the unit and I won't talk prices. You guys can find that out easy enough. That is all.


JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 23:52:43 (ZULU) 

I was just wondering what has more hitting force. A 30 06 or a .308.
this is important because i want a rifle with good hitting power and accuracy but not as much recoil(ex.300 win mag).
bubbaloo <>
USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 00:37:25 (ZULU) 
re 782 warbird shows a modified Remington 700 actioned rifle for all calibers except the larger saturn and meteor, so yes the actions you asked about will work. Its an interesting web sight, check out the 1000 yard record that the warbird set last year, not to shabby.
Chris Gates <>
jax, fl, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 02:05:16 (ZULU) 
Scott: Got the t-shirt. Looks great.

Bill B: Thanks for the loading info. I need to develop loads for my trip SMTC.

Andrew <>
Broomall , PA, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 02:53:34 (ZULU) 


If both are loaded to top end the 06 has the edge in power as it has a greater case capacity and makes a little more speed. It has its best edge over the .308 with bullets over 180 grains in weight.

The .308 is a more efficent case concerning power verses capacity and in my experince is a little easier to get to shoot good groups.

The difference is small but it is there.
Ron <>
USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 03:21:37 (ZULU) 

Someone posted his suggestion of taking old solvent rags
and bundling them up and sealing them in plastic bags.

Warning: Dont do this with ALL solvent type items. Read the
instructions on the package.

If you dispose of linseed oil soaked rags this way, they might
spontaneously combust.
You are to never leave linseed oil rags bundled together, as
they form heat internally, and can (and do) ignite.
Most manufactors recommend disposing of linseed rags by sealing
them in a jar full of water, then disposing the the jar.
Note: Danish oil, gunstock oil, etc.. these often contain
linseed oil.
Just like how laquer? thinner is composed of methylethylketone (MEK), acetone, xylen, etc etc

Robb <>
KC, MO, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 03:48:51 (ZULU) 

I have recently heard the news of Gunny Hathcocks demise
and it saddens me to see so little being done to honor such
a great man , a hero .
I know I , and many people I know will never quite be
whole again .

Chris Hamburg <Sniper Up@AOL.COM>
USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 06:00:04 (ZULU) 

jEEZ guess I did it again!

The gist of the comment "somebody" made regarded cleaning rifles or removing temporary or permanent coatings used to break up the outline of a rifle for discretionary purposes.
"somebody" had not though about spotaneous combustion of linseed oil soaked rags.
Nothing was said by "somebody" about bundling solvent soaked rags that I've seen posted here...............
Now "somebody" really hopes those jars filled with rags and water are EPA approved for land fill disposal and not made of glass to shatter while being compacted in the trash truck. Might make the local sanitation workers go postal if any oxidizers were present in the rest of the load...........

well of to take a gasoline shower while smoking a Partagas #10

SOLVENT CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 12:10:08 (ZULU) 

Just bought a Savage 12BVSS in .308. My dealer hasn't found a scope mount yet (too new a model ?). Anyone know where I can find one? Also, if anyone has one of these, let me know what you think.
Lou <>
St. Louis, MO, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 14:32:35 (ZULU) 
Recently saw a post on the duty roster about a site advertising the UARS stock for $250. can anyone remember the site? thanks, Geoff
Geoff p Ovens <>
lillington, nc, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 15:44:17 (ZULU) 
Achtung !

I am working with the Oehler Ballistic Explorer and was wondering if the wind drift could be calculated in MOA as well as Inches/centimeters.

I send an e mail to Dexadine who produce the software for Oehler and received the following answer within a few hours.

Maybe some of you could also take the time and respond to Mr Larson to explain the situation.



>I assume you're talking about Wind Drift correction in MOA rather than in
>inches. This could be done, but I know of only a few shooters who
>actually make sight changes to adjust for wind. Most shooters figure
>that by the time they adjust sights for wind drift, either the wind has
>changed or the game is gone. Maybe you need to educate me as to why a
>drift adjust in MOA would be useful.
>Thanks for your input
>Richard Larson
>Dexadine, Inc. 
Torsten <>
Germany - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 16:33:24 (ZULU) 

see below !
Richard Larson / Dexadine Inc. <>
heres the E mail, for answers to, Mr, Larson - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 16:40:12 (ZULU) 
How's it going Buddy?? I will e.mail Mr. Larson and fill him in also. Have you tried the ,I believe it's the JBM Ballistics program, on the SC sight?? It will break it all down into MOAs or even MILS and you can put in your target speed, all kinds of neat things. If you haven't gone into it yet check it out, peteR got me on to it. Its a great sight, when I was doing load work for my 260 I ran the program for the bullet and the speed and it was with in a few inches out to 700yds so far. It saves a lot of time and ammo not only put me in the ball park but nearly on home plate!!

Pat <>
USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 17:00:37 (ZULU) 

Has anyone out there actually purchased or re-barreled a rifle to Lazzeroni's short action .30 Patriot round? If you have, please e-mail. Thanks.
Dave <>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 19:11:04 (ZULU) 
Hi, y'all..

I am in the process of putting together my first proper precision rifle (previous experiences with M1917, Mauser and Lee Enfield-based guns dont realy count, I suppose). This time around I have a Rem 700 Police DM gun in .308 on layaway and I just got a Leupold VariX-II AO 4-12x back from Premier, who did the target knob and Mil-dot thing on it. I would naturaly prefer one of the more sophisticated tactical Leupolds but, hey, this is what I already had on hand and money is tight. Rings and bases came in from Brownells today: the steel Lightforce/ Bayer tapered two piece setup and and a set of the IOR-Valdada QD rings. Both pieces of gear seem to be up to the job. This would probably constitute a rather er-cheapo rig in some eyes but I have a good bit of confidence that it will prove a decent combination.

Anyway, a few Q's:

I have another fairly viable Leupold on hand, a VariX-III 3.5-10x non-AO. I figure I have have two options with this scope if I care to use it on a tactical rifle; either ditch it and save the money to buy a proper scope with an AO or side focus, or ship it to Premier and have them do the Mil-dot, target knob thing and have them move the 150 yard factory parralax setting to some other setting. Which would you do? If the latter, which range would be a good comprimise setting, assuming it is to go on a .308-.30-06 that may be used out to, say, 1,100 yards? (I know this last is a pretty wide open question; just do the best you can :)

I am also looking to build a somewhat heavier rifle than the 700P, something that can reliably be used at a bit over 1,000 yards for either match or tactical work. I would rather avoid going to .300 Win Mag due to ammunition cost and barrel life considerations and was thinking of either a .30-06 or perhaps a .30-06 Ackley Impoved, which I know is pretty much a waste with 150gr. bullets but (I figure) might be quite compatible with 175-200gr. match bullets. Since Remington refuses to introduce a Sendero or Police gun in .30-06, options include building the gun up on a Remington (with HS-Presicion stock) or Howa action (I have had good luck building accurate hunting rifles on Howas in the past, and McMillan makes several stocks to fit them) or getting one of the Savages as the only "turn-key" option. I view Savages as crude, awkward damn things but freely admit that they tend to be *very* acurate.

Any comments on the above ramblings would be appreciated.


Tom S <>
Midlands , SC, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 22:49:23 (ZULU) 


Warne as some vary nice rings and bases for Savages. They have a base that can help with problems on the long actions. You can contact them at 1800-683-5590. There tech service is great. They will help you pick out the best combinations that will work on your rifle.

CJ <T18man>
New Castle, DE, USA - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 23:22:54 (ZULU) 

Re:Badger canted bases
Could/would someone explain how it is that forward canting of the scope base gives additional elevation adjustment I'm sure this has something to do with image inversion but poor old ignorant me just can't quite get a grip on it.Also is this mount made for Savage110fp?

Does anyone have feedback on "seems too cheap"Tasco SS10x42 $299.??!!
Bruce E. <>
Texas, USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 03:24:55 (ZULU) 

Im just purchased a Rem.700 pss in .308. I reload for my other rifles but I'm new to the long range shooting, so I need some advice.
The person I bought the rifle from said Federal Gold Medal 168 bthp
gave good results. So I would like to get a load close to that. I have a large quanity of Lake City brass to start with but plan to buy Federal Gold Medal to shoot up for brass.
dave <>
fort scott, ks, USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 06:52:45 (ZULU) 
Bruce E. - Dirt simple. Sloping the scope down is the same as sloping the barrel up. Same as you do when adjusting your sights, only it shifts the adjustment range. It lets you use that part of the adjustment range that normally would impact too low to be useful.
Dave_B <>
Waitin' for the 'squito hatch, MN, USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 10:55:32 (ZULU) 
Tom; Barrel life be damned if your going beyond 1000 yards on a serious basis. There is life beyond 1000 but there is a price. 300 win is a consideration or some of the new "big magnums".
I'm not sure what you mean by "heavier" but if you mean more powerful you are right to exceed the .308 if it is a serious quest.
Dave; Stick in some Varget and eliminate trying to duplicate the FEderal load. It will probably serve you better anyway. from 42 to 46.5 whatever keeps the pressure within limits and works best in your gun. There are other loads but Varget it clean burning and other factors are not a problem with this excellent powder choice.
There will be a load that will work.

B,Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 15:34:05 (ZULU) 

Tom; one more thing. the 30-06 although it will handle larger bullets say like the 190 grain or 175 grain with just a bit more power. It might be well to relate my experiences. The guns that are built for the 30-06 anymore usually don't deliver the accuracy. So custom would be the way to go and I assume that is what you are considering. The cartridge does well to deliver more power and with accuracy than the .308. I don't condone or condem the 30-06 but for some real gain the .300 seems to deliver.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 15:42:46 (ZULU) 
Can anyone enlighten me on the reticle in the M22 binocs? It looks like the same pattern and scale (numbered per 10 mils) as the M19s, but I'd like to be sure. Also, besides the full-sized reticle lines it has smaller ones which I'm guessing offhand are 2 mils total (or 1 mil for half of the line past the main reticle line, if that makes sense.) Anyhow, if anyone knows the exact details I'd appreciate the info.

Dave <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 17:59:17 (ZULU) 

Somebody asked for it, so I went ahead and did it. I made a simple Javascript program that does the calculations of the Greenhill formula. All that is needed is the length of bullet and diameter. You will find it (link) off of my main page. Click on my name below.
I hope someone finds this usefull. It doesn't come with frills or bells and whistles but it is my first Jscript program I wrote.

Bill M
Bill M <>
Central, Ny, USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 19:22:15 (ZULU) 


Listen to Mr. Rodgers!


Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 21:58:38 (ZULU) 

M22 Binos.

Increments between large hatch marks are 10 mils, increments between small hatch marks are 5 mils.

Big Hatch marks themselves are supposed to be 5 mils (half will be 2.5), small are supposed to be 2.5 mils (half will be 1.25). Be careful with these measurement as I have found them to be suspect. Small hatch mark is usually actually 2.2 mils.

Make yourslef a surveyors pole with 4 inch bands. Put it at 112 yards. Each 4 inch band will equal 1 mil through the optics. Check it out.
gooch <>
USA - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 22:41:36 (ZULU) 

I'm looking for a set of M24SWS iron sights.
What's the availability?
What's the going price?
Any recommendations?
Do I really need them on my PSS?

Walt <>
Colo Spgs, CO, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 01:32:33 (ZULU) 

I just saw a coverage of the Kosovo conflict on Ducth TV. It was showing Serb forces using the Barrett M82A1 Light Fifty sniper-rifle. I saw at least 3 guys running around with them and/or shooting them. Does anyone know whether these are Serb issue sniper-rifles or were captured during the war in Bosnia? Thanks for the imput!

Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 02:22:24 (ZULU) 

Walt - Don't need the iron sights for your rifle unless you are going to shoot NRA bulls in competition. If that is the case then you really don't want the Redfield Palma sights anyway. The sights, to my knowledge, are no longer made and when we bought a bunch of replacments, Redfield had to put them together with spare parts.

Gooch - I agree, the stadias on the binos are not consistent and they are suspect as to the actual measurement. Recommend, as you did, that the user measure the sizes for his binos and note the measurements for his binos. Those suckers were designed to shift fires on a "bullet" that had a really BIG impact area.

30.06 - Not big enough of an improvement to warrent the lower efficiency of the cartridge at "normal" use. Agree that the 300 or larger would be best for long ranges. .308 at 1000 and beyond is a real push.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 03:14:43 (ZULU) 

I've got some questions about M1As.
I'd like to build an M1A for tactical use. I've got the gun and am looking for a stock, scope and mount. Looked at a McMillan M3A stock today and it seemed to be a pretty good setup. Has anyone here used one? Do I need McMillan to do the complete installation or can I buy the inletted stock and have someone else install it?
What's the best all around scope mount for the M1A for the money? Springfield? Brookfield? Other recommendations?
I've already got a Leupold 3.5x10 Tactical for my optics. Is the newer M3(?) 3.5x10 Long Range/Side Focus much better of a scope?
Thanks for any input.
Glenn <>
USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 03:26:33 (ZULU) 
Lou, I just bought a 2 piece Burris mount for my Savage 12FVSS, and some Burris Rings. I hope to have it mounted up on Monday, but don't know when I'll get a chance to shoot it. The 2 piece mount for the "Long Action" Savages should fit the new short actions they way I understand it ... the one I got states for models 110 - 116 ...

Hope that helps .... dustpan
dustpan <>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 04:20:55 (ZULU) 

Thanks (again) Mistah Gooch!!! Will verify via your recommended method...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 05:04:34 (ZULU) 

Glenn; I'll give you my impressions on the scopes. The 3.5X10 tactical is a good scope. I don't know if you have AO or not. I have one that does not have AO and it is excellent in the parallax department for 3 to 400 yards. If your going way on out you need it.
The 30 mm of the the M3 gives you more field of view and it also allows for a much greater vertical adjustment which you will need if you go on out beyond 500 yards. I don't favor a 50mm objective due to the added signature your offering a spotter on the other end. The 3.5X10 has a 1 moa change for each click. There again this is handy at long range and i don't find the 1/4" clicks an advantage anywhere.
The paralax adjustment on the M3 has to be calibrated by you I believe where the standard with AO is marked in yards which is usually close on VARX IIIs. I find it just about as quick as the side focus but it depends on what shooting position your forced to shoot from. For maximum concealment I can't help but think the M3 would be the best. Rugged? Well they are both good but the M3 has that "tank" appearance. As to whether it's worth the difference depends on whether your hunting 2 or 4 legged game. I find that some of the target turrents are quite reliable as to how much movement you get on each click. The 4.5X14s are quite good. The older tacticals 3.5X10s are not really all that good with unpredictable backlash being a problem. Sometimes you get 3 clicks for one and sometimes you get 3 for 3. Your a hunter? Get a 3.5X10 40 or 50 mm. For tactical the M3 is the winner in my book. The fixed 10X LR is a real good scope but I would rather have the variable in combat or tactical situations.
Price be damned if your hunting an encounter of the 2 legged kind.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 06:03:47 (ZULU) 
Anyone have a good suggestion for powder types in .223 for AR-15
use. Do some dirty the gas tube quicker? I will be shooting some 52 gr bthp and later some heavier bullets. any help greatly appreciated.
Ron <>
USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 06:11:39 (ZULU) 
PeteR: Thx. for the idea about putting used patches in a 2-liter soda bottle. Nobody ever taught me that. I think we forget that we're human and this stuff can hurt us over time just as sure as a bullet. I've known graphic artists in college who were VERY screwed up in short order from similar chemicals. Wearing gloves may be as important over time as wearing body armor or putting on a seat belt.

Kosovo: Way too complex for us all to get into. Obviously we all want our people to be safe. The people behind those Barrett .50s feel like they are defending land as important to them as Jerusalem to the Israelis, and that's mighty dangerous. I pray for a quick, reasonable end to all this without American casualties.

Quick sidenote about Bolt's question about Loctite/nail polish on threads: I assume many of you have firesticks with barrels shorter than 24" :) For you all with Sure-Fire tactical light mounts on ARs/M4s/AUGs,etc. you may want to Loctite your mount screw threads and mark the heads with red or white nail polish. Yes, they do work themselves loose like everything else.
Michael Novack <>
Phoenix, AZ, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 06:18:51 (ZULU) 


Thanks for the imput on US Optics. Would have answered sooner but have been out of town. From the replies I have been getting, guys seem to either love or hate 'em. Which models do you have and what use (rifle) is each one employed? A lot of response seem to imply deficulty in dealing with the company in terms of waiting for product and reponse from the service center. Has that been your experience?
Do you think their scopes are superior the the Leupolds and Tascos?


Steve <>
USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 07:14:35 (ZULU) 

Ron; my opinion. VARGET is the answer to clean burning reliable accuracy. The load on the can (VARGET Comes With suggested loads on the can)will do nicely I use a 26 to 26.5 depending on what the rifle likes. I Find it very forgiving as to quantity. You have to only be within a couple of tenths to get good performance. There are a few applications where other powders may equal or slightly exceed VARGET but the ability to shoot it in about everything outweighs small performance problems. I know a guy who shoots it in his pistol. Let's don't even go there.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 14:16:06 (ZULU) 
Good morning to all;
Thanks for the replies on the rem 7400 recieved in here. I see i will have to buy me another rifle for long range shooting. My wife will love that bit of news im sure.
OBSERVATION: I saw a program on TLC or DISC. about a computer program that will back track a bullet's path by using sound (i think) and pin point the source of fire. This seems to be a very good peice of equipment depending on which end of the computer you are on. Snipers have to not only worry about visual detection now but computerized detection.
**What type of precautions are the snipers going to take to over come this piece of equipment if it is in the wrong hands.** I sure hope we havent let this technology slip out to the whole world but since i did see it on television i'm afraid its to late.

Ok now back to the rifle. Budget is $700 for a long range rifle for target and hunting. I dont hunt bean fields but i have one field for about 500 to 500 yard i think that i can hunt. I only hunted one time on this field and had a shot at about 100 yards. Suggestions welcome on what to use on this field.
jeff argo
Jeff Argo <>
nashville, tn, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 14:22:54 (ZULU) 

Varget powder:
In a sincere effort to keep fellow readers informed, I have read that varget powder might accelerate the throat wear as compared to other powders. In particular, the surface finish of the throat seems to go first. If anyone wants to read the source of my information

Also, I would like to know the source of the ballistic tables in Mike R. Lau's book, "The Military and Police Sniper" Just my opinion, but if he copied those tables out of a military training manual, then the manual is indeed "All ate up"

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 14:53:36 (ZULU) 

New Questions!

Could someone please discuss the various mil spec binoculars and spotting scopes that are available to civi's, advantages and disadvantages, and where to purchase them? Are mildots of any great advantage in binoc's and spotting scopes?

Does anyone have experience with the 'Cage' Enhanced Load Bearing Vest?

Still needing a treatise on the various bipods (thanks for the emails from various people on preferences).

Need listing of best .308 and .223 factory ammo. Can't afford reloading equipment until fall, need brass anyway.

Need info on chronographs, preferences, etc.

Need source for inch/pound wrench or screwdriver. Brownells' torque starts at 33"#.

Mike, don't forget to post when slings are available.

Gooch, update on log and data books?

Scott, if I can't finds a partner for October, are there competitions for single entrants?

Bolt <>
USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 15:20:29 (ZULU) 

Wake up dudes! Carlos Match is only about six months off. Lets give Rod more prizes and help on this. I will be sending five slings just for prizes by the end of the week. My butt will be at the shoot, so come out and beat me, if you can? Or just have a beer with me after if you can't. But lets help Rod, this is costing him money so lets share the cost for the Gunny.

Calif, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 16:53:16 (ZULU) 

Steve; I took a look at the text of that document. Assuming it was the notation on VARGET. He might be correct about his assumption about powder speed of burning affecting barrel life. But I have never heard of a problem with VARGET in .308. I'm not quite sure he is meaning to indicate that but I could be wrong and it is apparently theory as he says he hasn't tried VARGET. I Don't see any signs of it but that is not conclusive either as I have never worn out a barrel in a gun I've used it in. I would think possibly the .223 would show it before the .308 but I may be misinterpreting what he is saying.

B.Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 18:01:35 (ZULU) 

Why does everyone think the Serb thing is so complicated? One side is out to kill the other side 'cuz they don't like their nationality or religion. What's so complicated about that? The Americans had plenty of practice at the same kind of thing 125 years ago with their native Indian peoples. They didn't like them, wanted their land, so they got rid of them. Same as now in the Balkans, yes? By the way, glad to hear Clinton say he is taking the "moral high road" in this matter. Its probably a strange, uncomfortable position for him!
USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 19:28:40 (ZULU) 

Duude, thanks for the heads up on Boots site, Guys check it out!
This is the 5-R dude!

Too many questions on the VARGET issue my man!
Was the "Palma" rifle a Ruuu, Ruuuuh, Ruuuuh-geee?
Did it have a CM or STS barrel?
What was the comparitive load and bullet used?
Was it cut with a tight match chamber?
Were both rifles cut with same chambering reamer?

I love Varget, it works for me and my .308 loads have yet to exceed 50 fps extreme spread, or 20 for Standard Deviation.

Have you "hit" the Hodgdons web site via Hot Links? The page on Varget vs. a number of other powders for temperature stability is very enlightening.

Un-dude, got your six man!
The Carlos match in October needs our support!



Al O & Darrell-Darrell, how was the roadie?

BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 19:51:44 (ZULU) 

All: Whoa! Knock it off!!!
I didn't ask any questions about the damn politics around Kosovo! I don't want to get into it and I feel this is not the place to do so! So I say again, KNOCK IT OFF!
All I wanted to find out is whether so and so is using something as regular equipment. If you can't answer me without getting into politics, THEN DON'T ANSWER ME AT ALL!! By now, I've seen my share of politics and what it does to people and it makes me sick! Scott, you know what I'm on about. Back me up or even delete this whole M-82A1 question, I don't care!

Thank you, gentlemen, for your attention.

Bolt: Dutch armed forces use the Ednar 6x42 binocs with a reticle in the left ocular. You can see one in the picture-gallery. I love the thing to death! It's clear as hell and I find it very disturbing that no Ednar equipment can be found ANYWHERE on the Net. Can anybody tell me whether ther are other binocs that have the reticle in the LEFT ocular? I'd like to have one!

Stefan <>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 22:48:41 (ZULU) 

Hey Everyone: Just got in a couple of hours ago from Storm Mountain Training Center. Although we was not there as participants, we managed to nose around and watch some of the top notch shooters you could hope to see. WHAT AN EXPERIENCE! The place is terrific and Rod Ryan and Kent Gooch made us feel welcome as though we were students. The facilities are tremendous aas we watched top shooters tackle their sniper sustainment exercises and "long range" shooting from various positions. When I say long range I really mean short range> We watched targets (metallic targets - silhouttes) being clanged from 200 yards to 800 yards) and this was the short range. We didn't even have a chance to go to the long range course. I was truly amazed spotting for some of the shooters as you actually watched the bullet trace go down field, churning the atmosphere and hitting the targets at 800 yards away and about 3/4 of a second later, CLANG!

If anybody has their doubts about attending any of Storm Moutain's training course, put your minds at ease and SIGN UP NOW! Top quality instructions and great people. There are even some great looking West Virginny girls in the town of Keyser. For a good dinner there, try the Candlewyck and ask for their 16 oz prime rib dinner.

peteR: Missed you Saturday night, but we thought Depity Dave was going to arrest us for gettin' too rowdy! We did see a lot of shhep faarms and we thought fondly of you! Also seen some gooood lookin' cows we thought you'd be interested in and we will even offer my step ladder. He-He!

Gotta go cuz I missed my Sweetie and she missed me.

Al Ostapowicz <>
Back Home from "By-Gawd", O-Hi-er, USA - Sunday, March 28, 1999 at 23:17:09 (ZULU) 

Can anyone tell me anything about Heckler & Koch G36 Weapon System, is thiss rifle better than M16, more reliable, accurate, whatever.

e-mail me


Jonny <>
- Monday, March 29, 1999 at 00:26:48 (ZULU) 

Well snipers,

After reading about all the "snipers" who babble here but have never fired a long-range (or for some, short-range) shot in their lives, whether at paper or at a living target, now's your chance! Sign up and be the first kid on your block to go toe-to-toe with one of those Serbs and their Barrett .50 cals. Still think sniping looks and sounds like fun? Didn't think so. Dilettantes and charlatans beware, killing ain't easy, but dying sure is! Tend your gardens, dream your dreams, but leave the art and science of long-range killing to those who know.

USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 01:02:00 (ZULU) 

Obviously Voodoo2yoo's comments don't need answering. As much as I would like to, I won't take up the space.

Has anyone read Varmit Al's web page? In his cleaning write-up, he indicates that he doesn't even own a brush. He uses JB paste exclusively. Any Comments?

Bolt <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 02:02:54 (ZULU) 

Just a comment about a couple of posts I saw regarding screw torque: The proper terminology for torque is "lb-in" (or "lb-ft"), not "in-lb/ft-lb". Torque units put the force value first to distinguish it from an energy unit (as in muzzle energy in ft-lbs).

It's usually not confused with energy because of the context, but as an old-time helo mech/crewchief, I tend to get a little twinge when I see it written wrong. I guess I'm just a stickler for precision...
Mark Thomen <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 02:08:32 (ZULU) 

Voodoo; Your arrogant post is a mirror of your professionalism. Since I have no idea who you are I suggest you have no knowledge of mine or anyone else's courage or lack of it. A real SNIPER if that's what you think you are would be unlikely to assume to know so much about some situation they have no knowledge of. Most of us would not presume to know our own courage under fire when next encountered whether by accident or neccesity. Especially those who have been there, let alone someone else's.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 02:15:26 (ZULU) 
J.B. is pretty abrasive to be using as a sole cleaning agent. It will do the job and the guns that Al shoots would probably always be coppered up pretty bad. He might get by with it easier than say a .308 sniper where the first shot has to count. There were some posts about J.B. Causing a flaky first or second shot.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 02:21:36 (ZULU) 
Scott or Marius - You may wish to delete this, if you do go for it, but I will be damned if I will quietly sit here and read drivle from a man who has NEVER fired a sniper rifle in anger and everything he just stated applies to him more than anyone else on this page! The man was in the process of being court martialed when he left the army and owed his "team" money and rifles that are still owed.

Voodoo2yoo - Anytime you wish to come to Fort Bragg and test the waters, I'll be more than happy to shoot with you or "whatever". I have fired on long range targets, both paper and human. You squeal and complain more than any of the "targets" I hit to include the one I gut shot at muzzle distance. You have proved conclusively, without me having to say a word, that you are the piece of crap everyone knows you to be. You wouldn't make a pimple on a real snipers ass. You wish to do name calling and don't have the guts to sign your work, piss on you and your cowardly ways. You tend your dreams of grandure and allow the "real snipers" the space to do their work.

This was not babble, not humor, but seriously pissed off!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 02:43:45 (ZULU) 

Vodoo, how do I start this? You are a putts! You stupid idiot. I have been on both sides of a gun barrel and you want to talk crap. Well bring it on little one. Sorry Marius but sometimes we have no choice but to state the obvious.

Rick your sling will be in the end of weeks mail. Just as soon as I untangle myself from this super charged sewing machine, I bought. Sorry for the delay but I got tired of making them by hand and everyone that I contracted did crap for work so I will soon be a tailor. Oh watch it Vodoo I didn't mean to insult your profession, but heack you seem to think you can mine. By the way if Bragg is the wrong coast come to Oakland for some light work.

Gooch did that dog eat you?

Pete Varget rules

Two Bruces you guys are alway the class guys.

Calif, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 03:18:17 (ZULU) 


In a recent article, "Precision Riflery" (Guns & Ammo, Jan 18, 1999), the author, Chuck Taylor, presented guidelines for long range shooting. He presented the following opinions and I would like to know if your experiences are similar.

1. "If ranges don't exceed 500 to 600 meters, the .308, .30-06 .280 and .270 Winchester will perform with the right bullet."

2. "I watched a 120-grain .257 Nosler Partition bullet (3340 fps) from one of my sniper rifles completely penetrate a full half-inch of armor plate at 100 meters, where as the much-vaunted .308 168-grain match load did nothing but scratch the paint."

3. "Then I watched this same load sails through 1 inch of typical bulletproof glass and strike the intended target without noticeable deflection, while the .308 168-grain didn't even come close."

4. "Finally at a full 750 meters, it (.257) blew a 2-liter plastic container full of red-dyed water quite literally to bits, whereas a hit with the .308 produced nothing but a through-and-through hole.

5. "The Accuracy International rifle in .300 Win. Mag. provides the ultimate in precision rifle performance."

6. "A custom duplication of the U.S. Military 7.62x51mm M24 by Randy McCreight of Prescott Arizona delivers sub-1/2 MOA accuracy."

7. "The Remington M700VS in 7.62x51mm (.308WCF) is an excellent precision rifle for distances inside 500 meters. The well-built rifles offer a good combination of values verses expense."

In addition I would like to know:

Does anyone know of Chuck Taylor, his credentials, and does he run a shooter's school? How do you contact him?
Has anyone dealt with Randy McCreight of Prescott Arizona? Are his rifles as good as indicated?
Do you feel that the .308 can deliver the goods from 600 to 1000 yds. if set up properly or should one stick with one like .257 with less recoil and good terminal ballistics?
The Remington M700VS is a "varmint gun" with a 26 inch barrel. Remington states that it is the most accurate rifle they have ever produced. Is this true?
There is a new round which is the Remington .300 Ultra Mag which only some of the M700 can handle. Does anyone know anything about this round?
How does 257 120-grain compare to 270-160 grain?

Thank you in advance,

EyeMan <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 03:27:59 (ZULU) 

Hey Voo Doo! Where is your return email address? You Gutless Wonder!
Bill B <>
Out Back , KY, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 04:03:38 (ZULU) 
Chuck Taylor?YOu shouldn't have to ask us about Chuck he will tell you himself how good he is.
OH well, I'll just compare the cartridges. He is apparently talking about a 25-06 since that's about the only .257 that is worth looking at and Remington makes in a Sendero. Now it's a nice cartridge but.... Energy at 800 yards would be couple hundred pounds less than the .308 common sniper load. The wind is about 2.8" better with the 25-06. It's a worthy shell but it does tend to have a flyer once in a while. IT won't be replacing the .308 as a longer range accuracy performer sonn I fear. The barrel life is short compared to the .308 and M-60 ammo tends to get stuck in the barrel on the battle field. Long action isn't so bad but it's a consideration to carry the longer cases. They weigh about the same as the .308. If one were to have to change it would be worth looking at but I don't agree that it just puts the .308 in the shade. OH by the way at ranges up to 500 yards about any rifle will serve. I'd opt for a .223 at that range.
There will be better answers I just don't have anything better to do tonight.

B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 04:27:57 (ZULU) 

Jeez...I take time to do some rifle & bullet work and miss a bunch of stuff. Once I get the data straightened out on paper will post, I wil say... VarGet WORKS !!!

As for rucksacks and "humping" one more than I want to think about, I have an older version of a GREGORY "civi" model that is fantastic !! Its not camo but a forest green and has places where you can add external pockets and also use tie-down straps...weighs maybe 6 pounds empty and has seen lots of use in the past 10-12 years. Can probably find a current in a "Camp-mor" catalog.

Mike M...send info on sling, please. Seems like everyone else is getting one of yours , I might like one too.

Rick B , TAKE HIM DOWN !!! Stupid wannabe.. Thats my 5 cents worth, got a problem come visit me on the range !! My Rem 700V and VSSF .308 have NO Prob reaching past 600....just takes practice ( what I have been doing the last 2 weeks), good scope, right ammo. Chuck Taylor is a sub-gun "expert" , and does have a school...big deal.

OUT HERE 'fore I really crank it up !!
Will <>
WAR EAGLE !!, Alabama, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 04:32:32 (ZULU) 

try a fmj .308 on that armour plate. And a 168 gr Hornady V-max on that bottle of water at 750 and see what happens.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 04:36:04 (ZULU) 
I just bought a .308 PSS and was thinking of getting the leupold 3x9 VII mil-dot tactical scope. This is in my budget and seems like nice scope for the $$$. Any comments?
Mike Henderson <>
Tacoma, wa, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 05:11:15 (ZULU) 

I can't say anything about a .257, but I can verify that my M249 (5.56mm) has better penetration than the M60E3 (7.62mm); of course, those are both belt-fed machine guns, using rounds fitting for such; and the M60E3 was on the way out, being replaced by the M240 (yes, it's a modified coaxial machine gun off of the tanks; heavier than a 60, but much more reliable).

So, it's "plausible" that the .257 has better penetration than a .308, depending on the rest of the enchilada of each round.

Also, I'm kinda partial to the Rem700VS myself, being as how it's the ONLY Rem700 in .308 for lefties.
Rock <>
TN, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 06:04:12 (ZULU) 

Al: I liked your post on SMTC. Ive always appreciated the attitude of a professional. Just one question, are there any old dudes like myself in training, always wondered if I would take away from the class if I choose to participate. Am going to the LR courses in Aug cause I have a desire to learn about the skills, and I will attend the Carlos match in Oct just to learn more and meet people. Its been too long to consider full courses as far as sniper training goes, getting too old, doubt if I need to change jobs. I feel no need at this stage to enhance tactical or fieldcraft skills. I wonder.

Oh, and as far as the Voodoo2 Yahoo dude goes. I am what I am and thats what I am. Dont really know your situation but as far as the intel goes or I can gather, the only troops that are there are Special Forces, for rescue and recovery support, however that term is interpreted. My thoughts, have to be the 10th group out of Bad Tolz and Ft Carso, along with east coast SEALS and SAS and other NATO SF. I doubt based on your attitude you have anything to worry about. Consider this: should you be deployed, would you not relish the though of support from any wantabee, maybe, mightbe or a hasbeen like myself. If I was you I would drop the attitude quickly or make sure the body bag fits correctly. I would welcome all the support offered. Never heard of a single handed victory. So if your not full of it, Godspeed for a safe return.
Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 06:55:08 (ZULU) 


A couple of days ago I mentioned some hearing protection, they have a website and here it is:

The set I have is the Sonic II. Hope this helps everyone interested.


Matt <>
TX, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 08:52:22 (ZULU) 


... Chuck Taylor, presented guidelines for long range shooting. He presented the following opinions and I would like to know if your
experiences are similar.

1. "If ranges don't exceed 500 to 600 meters, the .308, .30-06 .280 and .270 Winchester will perform with the right bullet."

It depends on what you mean by performance... against Elk, they will all fail miserably. Against Coyotes, they will all do fine. And 500 yards ain't all that far.

2. "I watched a 120-grain .257 Nosler Partition bullet (3340 fps) from one of my sniper rifles completely penetrate a full half-inch of armor plate at 100 meters, where as the much-vaunted .308 168-grain match load did nothing but scratch the paint."

Ol' Chuckie Taylor is talking about the .257 Weatherby, though he's taking his velocities from a catalog, it is more like 3200fps w/120 gr bullet. Penetrating steel plate is a function of velocity. The .22 Swift, and the .22-250 with 50 grain bullets will make the nicest clean holes in 1/2" plate you ever saw... because of their velocity. The .308 and .30-06 class of cartridges will splash on 1/2" steel plate (even the FMJ or AP) because they're not moving fast enough. Speed is the key, and is the reason our tanks shoot steel "darts" at 5000-6000 fps at the other guys tanks.
The .257 Weatherby is an Antelope cartridge.

3. "Then I watched this same load sails through 1 inch of typical bulletproof glass and strike the intended target without noticeable deflection, while the .308 168-grain didn't even come close."

Same effect as #2

4. "Finally at a full 750 meters, it (.257) blew a 2-liter plastic container full of red-dyed water quite literally to bits, whereas a hit with the .308 produced nothing but a through-and-through hole.

If splashing water bottles impresses you... do it with any fast varmint .22... it'll rain red for days. But this is no measure of anything.

5. "The Accuracy International rifle in .300 Win. Mag. provides the ultimate in precision rifle performance."

Not true... (I think Ol' Chuckie got a free rifle from them)...
While they make fine rifles, the folks that shoot the .300 mag at 1000yd matches aren't using them. There are so many makers of outstanding 300 mag rifles, that it would take a few pages to list them.

6. "A custom duplication of the U.S. Military 7.62x51mm M24 by Randy McCreight of Prescott Arizona delivers sub-1/2 MOA accuracy."

Probably true, but that's not a feat that is note worthy... there are several out of the box rifles in the $500-$600 class that'll do that all day long.

7. "The Remington M700VS in 7.62x51mm (.308WCF) is an excellent precision rifle for distances inside 500 meters. The well-built rifles offer a good combination of values verses expense."

The Rem M700, and several others meet this description easily

"Do you feel that the .308 can deliver the goods from 600 to 1000 yds. if set up properly or should one stick with one like .257 with less recoil and good terminal ballistics?"

The 308 is "terminal" at 1000yds, is easy and comfortable to shoot, cheap to shoot, VERY accurate, and a decent barrel will last 8,000-10,000 rounds.
The 257 Weatherby may be the loudest round ever developed, expensive to shoot, not very accurate, much more recoil than the .308, and a barrel will be worthless at 800-1000 rounds.

"The Remington M700VS is a "varmint gun" with a 26 inch barrel. Remington states that it is the most accurate rifle they have ever produced. Is this true?"

Not true... the 40x rifles are the most accurate rifles Remington has ever produced. The 700 HB family is fair by comparison.

Pablito <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 10:37:13 (ZULU) 

OKAY, just got in and read the drivel from VOODOO-TUPAKSHAKUR boy.

If you're happy pissing people off keep blathering, IF and only IF
you can TRULY walk the walk, SHOW UP AT CARLOS IN OCTOBER.
All those good folks you're slapping around via keyboard, will be there, AND there are plenty of takers willing to settle whether your small mind and arrested adolescent keyboard skills match your sharpshooting prowess.



Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 11:25:12 (ZULU) 

Pablito; good job on the Taylor question. YOur throughness exceeded only by your detail.
About the 3x9 mil dot. A idea if funds is your only consideration and you want a mil dot. for range estimation...However (and there's always a however it seems) The adjustment turrents are not "clicks" and are not reliable to reset. Too much backlash. The 3.5X10 VARXIII would be a better choice unless your going to leave the adjustments where they are and shoot by the dots etc for interpolation of height.
The lenses are quite good and they normally don't change impact between power settings. You might get a bargain on a 3.5X10 used and Leupold will put the MIl dots in for about $135.00.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 12:31:35 (ZULU) 

I'll be at Carlos drinkin beers with PeteR, Mike (the Undude) and a dozen other lightweights from this whimpy site...
... lookin' forward to watchin' you show us how to do it!!

Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 13:20:34 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the shirts and the hat. Great stuff.
Tony Y.,
You won't be the only old varmint at the LRR1 course in August.
Just stuck another pin in your doll. Hope you enjoyed it!
Doc <>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 13:24:25 (ZULU) 
Chuck Taylor article made me smile. A jug of red dye? Punching a hole in a metal plate? Geez, we have done that for years with the little ol' .220 swift...does that mean I own even more "sniper" weapons than I thought? hmmm.

Got a question: Getting ready to reload using some LC match .06 brass that has been chemically deprimed. The chemical used turned the brass brownish, and almost sticky. What can be applied to clean this up, or added to a tumbler? Afraid the nutshells will turn to dust....
Bruce <>
USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 13:31:37 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the info on the Varget. The sight was great it was almost like sitting down and talking to Boots!! He is a very knowledgable man. I have to agree with petR and Bill VARGET is great powder and I will stick with it. I am even shooting it in my 260 and it seems to work great in it too.

Thanks again for all the info and I don't know who this Voodoo is but I think you said it for us all.

Your right on the velocity issue and penetration, its the speed that does it and he's talking apples and oranges and must not be to intuned to the tactical shooting world if he's making statements like that. We would all like to shoot a 22-243s instead of a 308 but then we would need a bag of barrels to finish the match.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 13:40:37 (ZULU) 


Is the stickie stuff on the LC Match cases an oil base residue? If it is, you will have to wash it off with solvent before you clean the cases.

Give Iosso Products a call at 847-437-8400... they make the best chemical cleaners I've ever seen, the stuff comes out looking new in a few minutes... don't leave the cases in it, when you go out to lunch!!

Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 14:30:08 (ZULU) 

Someone was asking about the G36. This weekend, I fired the Heckler & Koch G36K, the new UMP submachine gun, and new suppressed USP Tactical. I liked the G36K, but didn't really get to evaluate it to compare it to the M16 M4 or something similar. The UMP was nice, and very controllable even with .45ACP, but it does have a slow cyclic rate. Never had a malfunction in over 200 rounds fired in each.

B. Melick <>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 14:47:37 (ZULU) 


FYI, If the brass smells ANYTHING like ammonia, trash it!

Ammonia causes a condition called hydrogen enbrittlement and at the working pressures we rifle shooters deal with it could be very bad news!


bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 17:05:26 (ZULU) 

I've got a question that will help clarify the responses from an earlier post of mine:

If replacement steel Remington floorplates and triggerguards for the Rem700 are available, why would the Corps use the Winchester floorplate?

It seems to me that the Remington is a simpler design, and would be preferable to the Winchester design. Why would they go to so much trouble to modify the Winchester, instead of making/using a steel version of the Remington design?

Other than being made of steel, is there a FUNCTIONAL difference between the two that would make the Winchester desing more advantageous?

As an aside on this subject: McMillian Bros. Rifle Co. makes the M40A1 modified floorplate - see, in about the middle of the page.

Keep 'em in the black...
Rock <>
TN, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 17:47:28 (ZULU) 


They use the Winchester floor-plates, because it is a standard design from Winchester, availably in large quanities, and always the same. The Remingtom steel floor-plates are not made by Remington, but by small shops as a cottage industry. The parts and latches are not interchangable, and there is little guarantee that the maker will be in business from year to year.

The functional difference is that steel will take a hell of a beating, and aluminum quits under the first heavy stress. I've got a broken trigger guard that cracked through two sides when torqued to 65 inch pounds with hex bolts...
Pablito <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 18:01:14 (ZULU) 

Guys, just because someone writes and teaches does not mean they know jack. I have been doing this learning and teaching thing for eighteen years. I have seen great instructors and pee pee poor instructors. I am certified to teach AR/M16, MP5, Pistol, Shotgun, Impact Weapons, and Sniper Rifle. Now I can tell you I don't teach MP5 because I don't really believe in it. In my opinion it is just a pistol caliber and I want .223 or bigger for vest penetration. Pistol I carry every day and wish I had an AR/M16. I shoot the heck out of them but not my first choice in a weapon. Bottom line is I like rifles so that is my primary focus and I put my effort into them. Now someone (not to be mentioned) who plays with glorified pistols starts talking about long range rifles after all the years of being subgun man and I'm sorry but I don't hear what he says.

If you want the best Pistol or Shotgun Instructor, call Louis Awerbuck of Yavapi Firearms in Prescott AR. I have attended his schools and he is as good as I have seen.

Want rifle go to Storm Mountain., I have not heard anything but good from Rod and Gouch's Students.

Vodoo where are you?

Calif, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 18:04:55 (ZULU) 

Gooch, what was the name of those binos you picked up last weekend? Where can I find them?

To ALL: I just wanted you all to know just what kind of devil D. West is. This "kind" gent bought me something like five plus Rum and Cokes (heavy on the rum) after the first evening of the SMTC sniper sustainment course. Of course the next morning’s schedule was long range position shooting from the unsupported.
Every time I would finish one drink, another would magically appear. Being a fool at heart, I seldom turn down a free bee. Mr. West followed this up with a very large shot of, I think, whisky. I say "I think" because at this juncture I had already had two or three Rum and Coke’s of my own, plus a Molson’s and some ate up Goose Piss India Ale from Maryland that the bar keep gave me gratis, probably because no self respecting beer aficionado would drink the stuff! Darrel my friend, were EVER you are, I will GET you! ;-)
May your Ghillie blend in and Basso mistake you for a latrine-tree!

Who put you UP to it son? I want ra-ra-ra-venge! (maniacal LOL)

Scott <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 19:10:12 (ZULU) 

Some serious observations from the weekend:
Confidence. Or more appropriately, the loss of it. A fellow student was surprised and relieved to hear that I was totally stumped by the wind on Sunday. In his mind, I probably appear to know this stuff like the back of my hand. The funny thing was, in MY mind I was MORE ate-up than he thought he was!
The point of all this rambling is this: If you feel a loss of confidence in your ability and find it affecting your decision making process or impacting your ability to shoot, do not let it get to you. Look around. Chances are you are not the only guy in a momentary slump. Getting rattled is easy when you think you are getting behind the curve. Knowing that he was not the only one might have made a small difference. We were ALL ate up at one time or another (except for you Danny boy, as you are unquestionably…Da-Bomb!).While there are some individuals who can make a first round hit at 900 yards in 20 mph switching winds that physically MOVE your rifle, if you ain’t one of them it does not mean you are not a capable shooter. Pipe up and share the problem. I think it gets you back on track faster. Two heads are better than one. So says the Hydra…

Remington 700 P. These things can shoot better than I thought. I was not sure about my rifle or my dope until we started screwing off after the end of the course. A Coke can was at the feet of the 900 yard target. Everyone took a crack at it and most came pretty darn close to nailing the thing. Amazing considering the above mentioned 20+ gusting wind! I think a Chandler rifle got it (Danny?), but the "lowly" Remington got with in an inch or two and may have dinged it twice when no impact was visible to the sides. Not to shabby for the Big Green. I guess it is a keeper.

The New Remington LTR. This thing is going to be a success story. From the performance I saw it is capable of outstanding accuracy. The Guinny managed to punch a group that will measure .3 moa discounting the one he jerked into the next county.

Foot ball shaped mil-dots. Hate ‘em! Hate ‘em! Hate ‘em! I apologize to all you proud jar heads, but my pee brain simply can not think in 8ths! Gimme’ the round ones anytime, anywhere.

I’ll leave you with one last item. Mike Miller’s Slings. Throw out your M-1907 folks. This thing kicks ass. If you just HAVE to have a sling, it is the real deal. We will try to review it soon as the pile gets smaller. There should be some big news on this site in a day or so. Mike, I am sold. You know what to do. I believe a dozen was the number?

Scott <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 19:27:16 (ZULU) 

To Snipercountry this is by far my favorite site on the web. I have gained a lot information from all the contributing parties. Currently, I am an E4 in the United States Marine Corps. Being a Forward Observer for naval guns and close air support my weapons come in the form of 5"/54 or MK82/84. However, I am working my butt off to get to sniper school this summer. We'll see.
My question is this. I have a Rem 700PSS and need to scope it in a hurry. I would like to put on a Tasco SS10x42M for less than $450. SWFA is out of them until june. If anyone knows of a reliable outfit from which I can get one from in a hurry, I would greatly appreciate it. If I can't get the Tasco I'll put a Leupold 8.5x25LR on it for long range work.
Any ways gonna break it in this week and can't wait. Thanks again for all the info.
Chuck <>
Fullerton, CA, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 19:51:56 (ZULU) 
Chuck Taylor- gimme a break! Like a previous post he will tell you
how good he is but no one else who is informed will!
remember- he is a gun rag writer who needs to support himself somehow.........(maybe his training company is failing)
I think this is his attempt at the rifle version of 9mm vs 45 crapola
Mike T <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 21:02:47 (ZULU) 
Bruce. regarding cleaning brass that has been chemically treated to deactivate the Primers. I ran into this on some .308 LC brass I recently obtained from HiTech. Used acid to clean it, the same stuff I us to etch aluminium prior to painting an aircraft, do not remember the type. (phosphoric???) It did take the stuff off, but still left some sort of other crud behind. I think I would try the Iosso product if I were to do it again. P.S. this chemical on the cases is vile stuff, I inadvertantly got some on my hand, and 10 days later the nails are still yellow! Shoot safe longline
longline <>
wa, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 22:23:20 (ZULU) 
Where can I find Parker-Hale Bipods and accessories on the internet?

USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 23:06:40 (ZULU) 


You an find orignal Parker Hale bi-pods at Brownells, inc... their number is 515-623-4000.

There isa also a Chinese copy called "Versa Pod" and it is written up here on this site. They are about 1/4 the price of the P-H orginals.
Scott, on this site, has written the test report... ask him what he thinks.
Pablito <>
USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 23:22:55 (ZULU) 

Re: Chuck Taylor

Hey, wasn't he the guy who made those Converse All Stars basketball shoes?? Mindless drivel. Just another writer. Maybe the ole wine connoiseuer Jon Sundra will have something to say about Chucks statements. Have to ask him next time he stops by.
For one, I agree with a previous poster that he must be speaking of the 257wby, hotrod barrel-eatin' SOB that it is, the throat erosion on the last one I saw would sober a guy up pretty quick. Check out the load data on the 257wby 120 grainer and compare it to the 308 168 gr. He was probably actually using ballistic tips for the 257 and 150 grain soft points on a 16" 308 bbl. I'll have to check the article out, but I definitely would not be trading in the .308 for the 257. I couldn't afford the gunsmith. 308, 30-06, 270, all are long range, up to 500 and beyond, they have been proven effective time and time again. I think ole chucky better hit the books some more.


I didn't know there were pics of the hat and t-shirt 'til after I sent the check. Well I checked 'em out and they look great. Am eagerly awaiting the arrival of them. Could ya send me a styrofoam head too!!! LOL. Make a nice target to zero at.

Take it easy guys!!!

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 23:32:48 (ZULU) 

Gun Show Report Dayton Ohio:
I saw a Savage tactical style rifle for sale down there yesterday,
and it was wearing a McMillan tactical stock. I did not know they made one for the Savage. Price was $525.00 chambered for 300 Win Mag. heavy matte barrel. SO, now we have the Choate stock, the McMillan, when is HS going to jump on the bandwagon? I also found a heavy duty set of steel see-thru rings made by some company in Australia, which were quite resonable. Brownells catalog also lists two different see-thru rings. One is made by Smith enterprises for $40, the other is made by M.G.W. for $155 (these are Navy Seal approved.-)
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 23:48:29 (ZULU) 
Slings, Thanks Scott for the plug. Alot of guys are Emailing me about the sling and until know I had put most on hold. Here it goes The sling has been used by me for about three years. A few months ago I sent one to Gooch and Rod. They liked it and made some suggestions. I have spent this time making it better and getting the equipment needed to make a bunch. Well everything is here and I figured out the machines so no more by hand. All that is left is a label and making a bunch more. I am sending some to Storm Mountain the end of this week. Probably some to another retailer the end of next week. To be fair if you want one you will go through one of the retailers. Cost will be $50.00 plus shipping, no more no less so don't ask. If $50.00 seems like alot just wait tell you see how much thought and work goes into this thing and you wont be sorry you bought one. It is a carry and cuff sling. It is not a thing of beauty but the best sling I have come across for snipers.

Bruce your slings will go out tomorrow sorry for the delay. It took me all day to make the equipment work right and I missed UPS. Did you get the 300 mag yet?
Calif, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 00:04:10 (ZULU) 

I'll back Scott and Mike on the "Undude sling". I got one a couple months back and really, REALLY, like it. Mines way cool with the bloodstains from Mike hand sewing a bunch of them a night. Just the thang for a wannabee like me.
Multiple carry positions and the cuff is GNARLY!

Now, if I can just figure out how to get out of it...........


BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 00:25:50 (ZULU) 

The April edition of the monthly long-range tactical rifle match at the Sacramento Valley Shooting Center will be held this Sunday, April 4th.

That's right, on Easter Sunday.

In honor of the holiday, we will be following up the match with an
Easter Egg Shoot (rules to be made up as we go along).

See match details and range directions in "Sacramento Snipers" article. Don't forget to set your clock ahead for daylight savings time or you'll miss the start. Email me or call Mike Ball at 916-721-6611 if you have questions.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 01:13:19 (ZULU) 

RE Redfield LE scopes;
Still looking for reasonably priced scopes ,CDNN has 3-12x56 30mm LE-12 tactical with their proprietary SN reticle for $389 or 3-9x50 1" mil-dot LE-9 for $299 I have examined the 3-9 and it appears well made and the reticle seems user friendly but don't know much beyond that.Any of you have/had these that can comment?
Bruce E. <>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 01:25:49 (ZULU) 
FYI, what I have found.

Just got back from shooting the new Blaser R93, this thing is a tack driver. Shooting .30" 8 round groups,using 46grs Varget behind the moly 168gr Sierra. The unique bolt lock up is the fastest I have seen, but it seems fragile. In fact I would not want to have to take this rifle into the field at all. The Remington's, AW's, ect. are far superior field rifles.

I feel JB bore cleaner is perfect for cleaning match barrel's, I use it in my TRG-21,AI-AW,and Blaser R93, with no signs of abrasive wear, or serious 1st round flyers.If it caused any harm to barrel's I don't think Berger, or Tubbs would use it in their $1000 match barrel's.

Praying for our troups in Kosovo.

Lance <>
WA, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 01:30:26 (ZULU) 

On the Redfield LE, I spoke their rep some time back, and he said that almost "ALL" of the scopes with their proprietary SN reticle came back for a change to something else... if you get a Redfield, get Mil-dots.

Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 01:31:57 (ZULU) 

Let me take a minute to bend your ear-
I have ben shooting Fed. 168 Match since I got into this about two years ago. Mainly due to the fact that the LE snipers I know use it and it has worked well in my Styer. I am now using a LOD Marksman and started shooting Black Hills 168 Moly. Aside from the eight break in rounds of the Federal ammo, all I have fired through the LOD is the Black Hills ammo. My question is, is it O.K. to switch back and forth from Moly to non-Moly and even move up to 175gr. round. I have been told that I can go from shooting Moly to non-Moly, but not the other way around.

Thanks for any info.

JFW <>
FTW, TX, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 01:43:42 (ZULU) 

Lou, got the scope mounted on the Savage 12FVSS today ... had to swap the rings (burris) for burris forward extension rings to make the Nikon fit properly (scope tube was too short to get over this "short action") So watch what you get to make sure the tube will be long enough ... you may need the forward extension rings too ... would have had a real problem had I went with the "Long Action".

dustpan <>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 01:50:03 (ZULU) 



C.C., TX, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 01:54:33 (ZULU) 

To All,
Yeah, I got to go to S.M.T.C. over the week-end and all I got to say is this is MY kind of place & MY kind of guys!
Rod runs a top notch school with top notch instructors.
Liston to me for once, will ya? Sale those damn golf clubs you got in the garage and get your ass down to Storm Mountain!!!
I'm sold. End of Story.

Man, I don't know. Alison just kept bringing drinks as we finnished them. I think she likes me ;-)
I think Lemay had something to do with it all.
I had fun hanging out with ya, and you know, if we weren't drinking, you could have been with.............well, never mind.
Oh, Scott.

" On my mark. Three.......two....BANG!!! "

I'm sorry. I'm laughing my balls off!!! Mr. Murphy hits again.

you're one crazy son-of-a-bitch!!! Hope to see you & Basso in June.

Rod & Gooch,
Thank you.
D. West <>
will work to go to Storm Mountain, in IL., USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 02:35:50 (ZULU) 

Pablito: That makes sense. Well, mostly, at least. I agree about not going with the really small companies that sprout up and blow away, versus the ever-existing Winchester, but if they (the Corps) order their own barrel blanks and turn them, and they can cut down a Winchester floorplate so easily, it seems to me that it would have been easier to make a duplicate of the Remington out of steel in-house for themselves there at Quantico.

D. West: And you were pickin' on ME about taking the Lady Vols out drinkin' before the game? Sounds like you snookered ol' Scott pretty well... reminds me of a Chesty Puller story: in Korea, he built a saloon for the men, and got 'em all drinkin' one night... Next morning at reveille he took 'em on a forced march... Man, that was the Old Corps! ;-)

SO, my question, being new around this neck of the woods: How do wanna-bes get to Storm Mountain? Can they? Or do ya HAVE to be professional?

Rock <>
TN, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 04:03:55 (ZULU) 

Tony T. All old farts go to the Long Range rifle courses at Storm Mountain, and old farts who want to try and recapture some of their youth (like me and you) go to the Basic Sniper and advanced Sniper Courses at Storm Mountain.

Scott: The binoculars that Kent had were ones that he got from me. They are IOR - Valdada 7x40 with the rangefinding reticle. The phone number is 970-879-2983. Make sure you ask for the ones with the glasss made in Schott, Germany. Mighty SCHWEEET huh? Mention that you are from Sniper Country and you should get a discount. If not contact me. (Best binoculars I have EVER looked through.) I'm ordering another pair for myself later this week.

Oh, by the way, The cheque is in the male, or is it the Czech is in the mail. No No wait - The check is in the mail. Thats it.

Al OStapowicz <>
Dreary eyed in the pristine state of , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 04:22:47 (ZULU) 

ROCK; You just have to make a commitment to yourself that you deserve the best training in firearms available, Call Rod or Kent up (See the Storm Mountain site) and then sign up for the courses you want to attend. Remember, we are all professionals. At what? Only you can answer that question!! Give em a call, I know you won't be disappointed.

Darrell: I'm never doing shots with you and Jack Daniels again!!

Al Ostapowicz <>
Laaast answer for tonite in , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 04:31:19 (ZULU) 


I picked up 1000 rounds of surplus ammo that I'll use for plinking with my FN-FAL. I want to test this stuff in my sniper-rig, just for backup reasons. The bullet's jacktes, however, have so much iron in them that I can hang a magnet off them.
Is it safe to use this stuff in my sniper-rig, or would I f*ck up the bore?


PS. Anyone have an answer yet, whether there are binocs with the reticle in the LEFT eyepiece?

Stefan out

stefan <>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 06:12:58 (ZULU) 

B. Rogers, Will, Rock, Bruce, Pat, Mike T, JR, Bill B. Joe, Matt, Terry W. and Pablito,

Thanks for taking the time to make my tarnished brass just a little bit brighter! Guess you can't believe everything you read.

EyeMan <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 07:02:29 (ZULU) 


If, you have a set of SWS M-24 match sight installed on a remington action, remove them, shoot with scope, and then at a later date install the sights again.......

will you maintain the same point of aim/impact? (iron sights that is)

Al O.
Man did you have an impact on By-Gawd. I went out mountain bike riding (aint the same as those bikes with bannana seats and monkey bars)with the kids and went past a local farm.
All the fleecy ones kept yelling your name through the fence as we rode by, AAAAAAAAAAALLLL, AAAAAALLLLL... :-0


Big City Dumb Question, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 10:45:15 (ZULU) 

" On my mark. Three.......two....BANG!!! "

What D. West is referring to is a rather embarrassing little faux pa on my part. After reading Ron N.s piece on adjusting the Remington trigger I decided to play a little. The result is that the trigger is lighter than before but it now has an interesting and disconcerting habit of sometimes tripping before I am ready. It will work well and then all of the sudden it will trip at the lightest touch. I could use some advice on this one by the way. It goes off between two and a half to three pound…most of the time.

Rod set us up for a simultaneous shot. He started the count down and at "three" I started to take up the slack. The intent is to trip the trigger on the "WA" of the spoken word "one". Well, as you can guess, the trigger tripped at "three". Bang! The round went high and to add insult to injury, I missed. I got this little hang dog look on my face and said something lame-ass like "duh…light trigger…" This of course was the STUPIDEST thing a guy can say as one, it sounds like an excuse and two, around THIS particular crowd, it makes for some great ammunition in the never ending slam-fest that we all enjoy. For the rest of the day, off in the distance I could hear those lovely word floating etherially across the course…"Light Trigger". (LOL)

Lesson number four from the weekend: when you totally screw up, say NOTHING! Just shrug and look innocent! If everyone is totally and irrevocably brain dead, they might not notice! ;-)

Lesson five: Don’t screw with your trigger if you do this for real. Give it to a smith and then give your self enough time to thoroughly test the results before ever employing it.

Lesson Six: When you DO screw up…just wait a minute and the next team will probably do a repeat of your piss-poor showing! They did. It felt great! Hay Danny, I know you are reading this. What happened dude? No…never mind…I know…A LIGHT TRIGGER!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 11:43:01 (ZULU) 

I apologize to those of you who have been trying to reach me via my work email address. Our server has been offline and will be that way for an unknown length of time. Worse, anything you send will probably be lost in the shuffle.

Mike M. Give me a call. We need to talk a few details so I can get the item posted on you know.

Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 13:08:23 (ZULU) 

Marius, RE the above server down notice. If you have been trying to contact me about the "new effort", you'll have to make the GO decision on your own. I say go now but I can not mail you directly till I get home this evening. The joys of relying on technology...
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 13:14:42 (ZULU) 
I would save my money and not get a 8.5x25 if you plan to use it for tactical shooting. The eye relief is very sensitive and you will be "Rubber Necking" constantly to get the right eye relief. I would go with a 4.5x14 I think its the best all around scope that Leupold makes. the 8.5x25 might be fine for varmints or paper but not field use. If you want to do tactical shooting the new 3.5x10LR is hard to beat and worth the extra that it costs. Just my opinion for what its worth.

Did you find out what your tech. was using for the 260 load with the 140s??
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 13:23:55 (ZULU) 

Ok, no slam fest intended. I too, have got to have the trigger reset on my brand-new, cu$tom built, Marksman Arms M-24 also.
It's tripping around 2-2.5 pounds, and to be quite truthful, it scares me!
Sure, it's just wonderful while at the range, but NOT on a tactical rifle. What happened to you with your new trigger setting that day only drove home the point of STRESSFUL SITUATIONS!!!

I don't care about what bench rest shooters say about not knowing when the trigger trips. I want my rifle to fire when I want it to, and ONLY then. Set to only go off at its intended setting. No "wondering trigger settings" and I know what you're saying.
The trigger doesn't have to have this new coined name. You're finger muscles can be a big difference at such low settings.

Ok, I know this sounds kind of dumb, but think about it.
You're heart is beating hard, things are going down around you.
Your mind is running 150 m.p.h. and lives are depending on you, maybe your own!!! Things could change at any time & speaking of time, you're running out of that, too. On top of all that, you've got to be on your BEST performance. Can you say, S-T-R-E-S-S boys & girls?

Murphy thrives for things like these, and you can bet that he's always teamed up with you in just such times.

Don't worry man. My time is coming up real soon. I might cut Murphy off from some things, but he's got a whole two weeks to ambush me.
Mr. Murphy is one of the best teachers out there & Rod Ryan has him on his staff as well.

D. West <>
Sending my rifle off, in IL., USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 14:12:13 (ZULU) 

Triggers, Scott I have seen many folks touch off a round during the old 3-2-1. The drill causes stress and during stress we fornicate ourselves. I set my triggers at three to three and one half pounds. Being that as my other half says I'm first generation walking upright I can't tell the difference when the pucker factor is up and I don't touch off accidental rounds. Not that I would admit to doing it ever- Lession seven If you don't have 9x12 glossy photos with negatives it didn't happen.

Scott I will call you today to discuss the details

ALL WHO WANT SLINGS: Starting tomorrow all slings will go through dealers. If I have already emailed you with price I will honor it, but fair is fair and a couple of places are going out on a limb to help me and they should get the sales. Also the cost will be $50.00 plus shipping. That is what I have asked them to sell them for. No one makes much profit. I'm sorry if you guys wanted the handmafe version with blood stains but the new machine is faster and no more BioHazard.

Mike The UnDude with healed hands.
Calif., USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 14:47:33 (ZULU) 

Mike M.
I'll take one of your slings.
Oh, I've GOT photos ;-)

USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 14:56:58 (ZULU) 


I have setup a temporary mail catch box for you: - use if you wish. I am sort of familiar with why your lmco mail is down. Email me if you want further detail.

Ken :)
Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 15:05:11 (ZULU) 

Hey Light Trigger... (also known as "Scott")

I've done bunches of these triggers, and there's no magic to it.

Looking at the gun and trigger so the safety is up, and the barrel is pointing to your right... the front of the trigger is to your right...

The three screws are as follows... on your right, (the front of the trigger) the top is overtravel, the bottom is spring tension.
On your left side, (the back of the trigger) is the engagment screw.

Back out the spring tension screw out until there is just enough pressure to keep the trigger forward, but it's easy to move.

Back out the engagment screw, (The top "front" screw on your right side) and the over-travel screw (the single "backside" screw) out a bit so there's play to adjust.

Close the bolt on a cocked pin and slowly turn in the engagment screw (on your right) in until the firing pin drops. Back it out 1/3 to 1/2 a turn. With the firing pin down, you should now feel the trigger wobble back and forth if you pull it because there is excessive overtravel.

Because the back surface of the trigger is not undercut, you have to adjust overtravel with the pin "down".

Now, with the firing pin in the "fired" position, screw in the over-travel screw until it "just touches" the the trigger lightly, preventing the trigger from moving... back out the overtravel screw 1/4 turn. You should feel the "slightest" free movement.

Cock the pin and try it... it should break like glass.

Check by:
Slam the bolt closed a dozen times, check to see if the pin dropped.
If the pin drops, back out the engagement screw 1/4 turn.

Set the safty, pull the trigger, release the trigger, and release the safty, a dozen times... if the pin drops, increase the spring tension (shouldn't be necessary, unless you're down around 10-15 oz's, and this trigger is not reliable at that light a pull.

Put nailpolish on the screws.

There will be no "take up slack", this is a single stage trigger, and can't be adjusted to act like a two stage.

I have my Rems at 24-26 oz's and they keep the setting year to year, and I've never had to re-adjust one.

And for those that don't know what you're doing... STAY AWAY FROM TRIGGERS... you can hurt someone (usually someone else!)

Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 15:27:15 (ZULU) 

Thanks again for the excellent post on triggers!!! Would you check the post, you list the engagment screw as the top right and the rear bottom would check the post and let me know which is right, in your post you say the top right(the engagment screw) but up above you call it the overtravel screw could you clear me up or am I reading it wronge, thanks again for a great post!!
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 16:34:02 (ZULU) 
Pablito's right with his last comment. I don't mind tinkering with gunsmithing, I think it's fun (and occasionally frustrating) but I know enough to take most trigger mods to people who really know what they're doing.

Stefan: The USGI M19 binocs have the reticle in the left. It's not the greatest mil reticle in the world but there you go.

peteR: What kind of ghillie are you using on your mountain bike? I can't seem to keep the canvas out of my derailleurs! ;^)

Dave <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 17:09:35 (ZULU) 

Sorry! I wrote it looking from the left (the side I work on because of the way my bench is set up), and then thought most people would work on the other side because the bo;t handle would be "up".
So I went through and changed "Right and Left" and missed one.

The rear, single screw is "Engagment"...
The upper of the two front screws is "Overtravel"...
The lower of the two front screws is "Spring tension"...

Then everything else is fine.

Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 17:29:53 (ZULU) 


I have read that the Jackets on "Ball" ammo is much softer than the jackets on match ammo. If this is true, you may get more fouling in the bore.
The ammo you got sounds like it is copper coated or "Guilded" over steel jackets. I personally would be afraid to shoot it through a good match barrel. I will try to dig up the article about the jackets.

Bill B
Bill B <>
KY, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 17:40:59 (ZULU) 

3 - 2 - 1 BANG.. and the light trigger pull. Stress, nerves, procrastinatation, Whatever!! Could it not be we just have not practiced and developed a finesse for that light trigger pull so we can stay focused on what we are doing. I really have to focus when I use my Canjar set trigger. It sits nice and crisp at 2.5lbs, but when used set at 2oz it really requires a lot of concentration. Chamber and bolt the round, set the safety, set the trigger, slowly disengage the safety, focus on the shoot, then breath on the trigger and bang. It's great fun when I'm shooting that 30/378 wby. I've been rapped many a time by the scope because of lack of concentration and touching the trigger too soon. Point of it all, practice, practice, practice.
Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 18:41:55 (ZULU) 
I'd have to totally agree with Darrel on the trigger issue. I brought it up in detail as a lesson learned (at my expense and for your benefit, I hope) and also to illustrate how a, ahem, light trigger can bite you. I have seen this before in my modified triggers. They will left off at a certain point 90% of the time but I have two rifles now that will trip 10% of the time simply by applying a little pressure. Both of these triggers have been worked. It is probably one reason why Remington is so against you adjusting the specs in this lawyer rich environment. At the factory 8 pounds, this just won't happen. This particular rifle will be going back to 3.5 pounds. I prefer to know when the trigger is going to break and this was a little unsettling. A good lesson yes, but not something I like. If I had done this for real (I would not have, mind you), the would be a very dead hostage out there.

In the scenario I mentioned I did as I always do. On the count of four or three I begin my natural respiratory pause, do a final alignment of the sight, and I usually start applying slight pressure on the trigger -- compressing the pad on the tip of my finger until I feel a little resistance from the bone underneath the muscle. No more pressure than that. When the "Wa" in the "one" is said all it takes is a little more pressure to go. Whether this is good technique I can not say but it helps me avoid jerking the trigger on the spoken "wa". In this case, the trigger tripped on that very slight initial pressure. There was no stress as we had been in position for about an hour waiting for the guinea to find his ghillie… :-). I can not blame stress. I can blame myself for screwing around with the trigger before heading down to the course, and then NOT at least hitting the range at least once to verify everything was copascetic. While I did not mention it at the time, this happened to me three times during the class. In the other two instances I was shooting field fire.

I’d agree with those who stay experiment. It is fun and educational. But I’d also have to point out that it is foolish to try to go to the limit on a trigger on a tactical rig. Three or four pounds is plenty light. Anything less is looking for trouble. It has been said before: This ain’t Bench Rest.

Last note: Hey Marty, I will try to make the Tactical Handgun course in April!
If the rest of you folks are interested in being a well rounded tactical shooter, do not forget to include tactical handgun and carbine skills in your repertoire. Most of the schools we have mentioned here are very good at teaching you these needed skills. Give it some thought. Long range rifle shooting is not the only skill you might wish to develop to a high degree. Later!

Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 18:43:43 (ZULU) 

It's nice of you to use yourself as an object lesson, but been there and done that!! In fact my rifle now is set on the 2lb side for bench work to find the best load for the gun and just as you said every once in a while for what ever reason just the slightes pressure on the trigger and it goes off. When I went to Wyoming last year I set it at 3 to 3.5lbs and it worked great. That is plenty light when your under any kind of stress so don't let them give you to bad of a time we all have brain farts now and then and sometimes there not even our fault, no really......

Thanks for the clarification!!
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 19:16:11 (ZULU) 

Regarding the talk about the adjustments on the Rem 700 trigger group, after adjusting it, then giving it a shot of degreaser so the nail polish will stick well, should lube, like gun oil or CLP, be applied to it, or should it be left dry? After I went thru the adjustment process, the last thing I did was lube it with a couple drops of CLP, which then caused occasional misfiring if I slammed the bolt forward, then slammed it down. I had to make a slight adjustment on the engagement screw to clear that up. But it left me wondering about the lube situation, which I had not seen mentioned anywhere. What do you guys recommend?
(i am clicking submit again, because I got a server error the first time, so apologies if this goes in twice)

Brian Meyette <>
Cornish, NH, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 20:00:56 (ZULU) 

Triggers for stress.

Triggers for target/sniperrifles should be twostage 1.5kg/3ibs matchquality.

Most 300m UIT matchshooters prefer 1kg firststage/takeup and .5kg secondstage/letoff.

The first stage make your head "recalibrate" to default condition for second stage fireing.

A well designed matchtrigger also have 2-2.5mm (.1") sear-engagement before first stage is pulled. This searengagement is reduced to perfect setup as the trigger is pulled to second stage fireingposition. The large area of searengagement before the first stage is pulled means that it is almost impossible to get an accidental fireing if the rifle is dropped etc. Bolt/slamfireing is also totally eliminated.

I've never seen a real twostage matchtrigger for Rem700 actions. In Norway we can get Schultz & Larsen and KV triggers for M98. These triggers are sometimes custumfitted to Win M70 actions.

Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 20:41:36 (ZULU) 

Pablito's excellent instructions should give you a good 700 trigger. However, if anything is flaky, back it off or rather increase the sear engagement. I don't oil triggers however it is good to oil them temporarily just to see for sure that they hold and don't go off by slamming that bolt.One other thing about 700's especially the late ones. After a good trigger 36oz or more is set it is a good check to dry fire the empty chamber. Then raise the bolt. Some rifles will recock and some will not. You must increase the sear and /or pull spring if you want the rifle to cock on raising of the bolt.(without rearward bolt travel) Otherwise it doesn't hurt anything that I can tell but you do need to know whether you rifle will cock if you just raise the bolt or if it won't. I would much rather it would but I have 2 that don't with 42 oz triggers adjusted.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 21:03:51 (ZULU) 
Need supplier for military binocs and spotting scopes.

What is the maximum distance you can see a 308 hole with a 12-40x60 Leupold spotting scope?

Is there anything wrong with just leaving a stock 700 trigger as is and getting used to using it. For instance, you don't know how to make the adjustments yourself, you have someone else do it, you're in the field, your trigger screws up and becomes unadjusted, YOU're screwed. What are the chances of a stock trigger setting unsetting itself? Would not messing with the trigger in the first place be a better option?

STILL WAITING ON THE DATA AND LOG BOOKS. Time is growing nye to re-sight seven rifles with new scopes.

El grassioso, the Bolt

Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 21:44:48 (ZULU) 


Jewel Triggers makes a true two stage trigger for Winchester M70, and Remington M700. They cost about US$225.

Jewel Triggers,inc.
3620 Hwy. 123
San Marcos, Texas, 78666

Ph 512-353-2999

They make The best triggers available.
Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 21:52:33 (ZULU) 

Hey Pablito,

isn't there an article on Jewell Triggers in the IN Review section of Sniper Country? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm no where could that have come from?

told ya so CITY, By-GaWd, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 22:13:02 (ZULU) 

The last two Remingtons I bought were both around 9 pounds... and I just can't get used to that. Triggers don't get out of adjustment by themselves, I have three Remingtons with 2 oz triggers, that are all over 20 years old, and none of them have ever changed... and putting nail polish on the screws keeps them in place.

Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 22:27:45 (ZULU) 

Question for "Mr. Bain"/others here:

Mr. Bain's review of Storm Mtn said "The bipod should not swivel"

Why is this? Do you agree? Yes, I realize that a swiveling bipod can introduce cant if you are shooting from a fixed, flat, hard, level surface, and you don't watch out for rifle cant. But I distinctly recall from attending the USMC S/S course that my fixed Harris bipod (this was before they made the swivel ones) could be a real PITA, because every shot would cause each leg to dig into the gravel a bit differently, and I had to keep dinking with the leg adjusters to keep the scope level. So, I have thought the swivel models are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

What are your opinions?


Brian Meyette <>
Cornish, NH, USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 23:17:18 (ZULU) 

Pablito; are those the 2 oz triggers they used to put on the 40X's? No reason just asking. I wasn't able to feel those before they went.
2 stage triggers are nice and I like the things that were listed here about them. But I seem to have a bit of a problem on fast moving targets like running plains game and such. I just don't bring down the percentage of fast moving targets with the 2 stage. Anyone else noticed that?
A bipod that doesn't swivel is hard to deploy quickly unless your willing to accept a canted shot. I will take the swivel just for the record.
Stephan; I wonder if you might have armour piercing ammo. That would account for the magnetic attraction to the bullets. It is usually safe since it is coated in copper jacket I believe. Some mil authority probably can elighten me on that.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 23:48:12 (ZULU)