March 1999

By Stephen Hunter
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 27, 1999; Page C01

The academics write their mighty histories. The politicians dictate
their memoirs. The retired generals give their speeches. The intellectuals record their ironic epiphanies. And in all this hubbub
attending wars either lost or won, the key man is forgotten -- the lonely figure crouched in the bushes, wishing he were somewhere else:
the man with the rifle.

Such a man has just died, and his passing will be marked elsewhere only in small, specialized journals with names like Leatherneck and Tactical Shooter and in the Jesuitical culture of the Marine Corps, where he is still fiercely admired.

And in some quarters, even that small amount of respect will be observed with skepticism. After all, he was merely a grunt. He was a sergeant who made people do push-ups. He fought in a bad war. He was beyond irony, perspective or introspection. He made no policies, he commanded no battalions, and he invented no colorful code names for operations. But worst of all, he was a sniper.

Gunnery Sgt. (Ret.) Carlos N. Hathcock II, USMC, died Monday at 57 in
Virginia Beach, after a long decline in the grip of the only enemy he
wasn't able to kill: multiple sclerosis. In the end, he didn't recognize his own friends. So it was a kind of mercy, one supposes. But he had quite a life. In two tours in the 1960s, he wandered through the big bad bush in the Republic of South Vietnam, and with a rifle made by Winchester, a heart made by God and a discipline made by the Marine Corps, he stalked and killed 93 of his country's enemies. And that was only the official count.

It's not merely that Vietnam was a war largely without heroes. It's also that the very nature of Hathcock's heroism was a problem for so many. He killed, nakedly and without warning. There is something in the mercilessness of the sniper that makes the heart recoil. He attracts vultures, not only to his carcasses but also to his psyche. Is he sick? Is he psycho? The line troops call him "Murder Inc." behind his back. They puzzle over what he does. When they kill, it's in hot blood, in a haze of smoke and adrenaline. And much of the other death they see is inflicted by industrial applications, such as air power or artillery, which almost seem beyond human agency.

But the sniper is different. He isn't at the point of the spear; he is
the point of the element, the destruction of another human being. He's
like a '50s mad scientist, who learns things no man can learn -- how it looks through an 8x scope when you center-punch an enemy at 200 yards, and how it feels -- but he learns them at the risk of his own possible exile from the community.

But maybe Hathcock never cared much for the larger community, but only
the Marine Corps and its mission. "Vietnam," he told a reporter in 1987, "was just right for me." He even began sniping before the Corps had instituted an official policy.

And one must give Hathcock credit for consistency: In all the endless
revising done in the wake of our second-place finish in the Southeast
Asia war games, he never reinvented himself or pretended to be something he wasn't. He remained a true believer to the end, not in his nation's glory or its policies, but in his narrower commitment to the Marine code of the rifle. He never euphemized, didn't call himself an "enemy "counter-morale specialist." He never walked away from who he'd been and what he'd done. He was salty, leathery and a tough Marine Corps professional NCO, even in a wheelchair. His license plate said it best: SNIPER.

"Hell," he once said, "anybody would be crazy to like to go out and kill folks. . . . I never did enjoy killing anybody. It's my job. If I don't get those bastards, then they're going to kill a lot of these kids. That's the way I look at it."

Though he was known for many years as the Marine Corps' leading sniper
-- later, a researcher uncovered another sniper with a few more official kills -- he took no particular pleasure in the raw numbers.

"I'll never look at it like this was some sort of shooting match, where the man with the most kills wins the gold medal," he once said.

Ironically, the only decoration for valor that he won was for saving,
not taking, lives. On his second tour in Vietnam, on Sept. 16, 1969, he was riding atop an armored personnel carrier when it struck a 500-pound mine and erupted into flames. Hathcock was knocked briefly unconscious, sprayed with flaming gasoline and thrown clear. Waking, he climbed back aboard the burning vehicle to drag seven other Marines out. Then, "with complete disregard for his own safety and while suffering an excruciating pain from his burns, he bravely ran back through the flames and exploding ammunition to ensure that no Marines had been left behind," according to the citation for the Silver Star he received in November 1996, after an extensive letter-writing campaign by fellow Marines had failed to win him the Medal of Honor for his exploits with a rifle.

But he was equally proud of the fact that as a sniper platoon sergeant
on two tours, no man under his command was killed.

"I never lost a person over there," he told a visiting journalist in
1995. "Never lost nobody but me, and that wasn't my fault."

Hathcock was an Arkansan, from a dirt-poor broken home, who joined the
Marine Corps at 17 and quickly understood that he had found his place in the world. He qualified as an expert rifleman in boot camp and began quickly to win competitive shooting events, specializing in service rifle competition. In 1965, he won the Wimbledon Cup, the premier American 1,000-yard shooting championship. Shortly after that he was in Vietnam, but it was six months before the Marines learned the value of dedicated sniper operations and a former commanding officer built a new unit around his talents. Hathcock gave himself to the war with such fury that he took no liberty, no days off and toward the end of his first tour was finally restricted to quarters to prevent him from going on further missions.

After the war, he suffered from the inevitable melancholy. Forced
medical retirement from the Corps in 1979 -- he had served 19 years 10
months 5 days -- led to drinking problems and extended bitterness. The multiple sclerosis, discovered in 1975, certainly didn't help, and burns that covered 43 percent of his body made things even more painful, but what may have saved his life -- it certainly saved the quality of his life -- was the incremental recognition that came his way as more and more people discovered who he was and what he had done. Even in the atmosphere of moral recrimination in the aftermath of the war, enough people far from media centers and universities were still attracted to the Spartan simplicity of his life and battles and to the integrity of his heroism.

His biography, "Marine Sniper," written by Charles Henderson, was
published in 1985; it sold over half a million copies. In the brief
blast of publicity that followed, he stood still for interviews with The Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune and others. The general population may have soon forgotten about him, but in the world of target shooters, hunters and police and military shooting, he was a revered figure. And particularly as shooters came to perceive culture, he became a symbol of the heroic man with a gun. He connected, in some atavistic way, to other American heroes, like Audie Murphy or Sgt. Alvin York, perhaps even Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone. They were all men like Hathcock who grew up on hardscrabble farms far from the big cities and learned early to shoot, read sign and understand the terrain.

Other gun culture enterprises kept him visible in a specialized universe unmonitored by the media, and put some money on the table. He authorized a poster that showed him in full combat regalia, crouched over his Model 70 Winchester, his face blackened, his boonie cap scrunched close to his head, the only identifier being a small sprig of feather in its band. In fact, a long-range .308-caliber ammunition was sold as "White Feather," from the Vietnamese Long Tra'ng, his nickname. He consulted on law enforcement sharpshooting, a growth area in the '80s and '90s as nearly every police department in America appointed a designated marksman to its de rigueur SWAT team. He appeared in several videos, where he revealed himself to be a practically oriented man of few but decisive words, with a sense of humor dry as a stick. He inspired several novels and at least two nonfiction books, and his exploits made it onto TV, where a "JAG" episode featured a tough old Marine sniper, and even into the movies, even if he was never credited.

In both 1994's "Sniper" and, more recently, "Saving Private Ryan,"
heroic riflemen dispatch enemy counter-snipers with rounds so perfectly placed they travel the tube of the enemy's scope before hitting him in the eye. In both cases, the shooters are tough Southerners (played by Tom Berenger and Barry Pepper), very much in the Hathcock mold. According to "Marine Sniper," Hathcock made such a shot, dispatching a Viet Cong sniper sent to target him specifically.

Also according to that book, he ambushed a female enemy interrogator, a North Vietnamese general and a VC platoon that he took down, a man at a time, over a 24-hour engagement.

Finally, and perhaps best of all, he ascended to a special kind of
Marine celebrity. The Corps named the annual Carlos Hathcock Award after him for its best marksman. A Marine library in Washington has been named after him and a Virginia Civil Air Patrol unit named itself after him. In 1990 a Marine unit raised $5,000 in donations to fight multiple sclerosis and presented it to him at his home. They brought it to him the old-fashioned way, the Marine way: They ran 216 miles from Camp Lejeune, N.C., to Virginia Beach.

It was a tribute to his toughness that Carlos Hathcock understood.

According to the account in the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot, the old sniper told the men, "I am so touched, I can hardly talk."

In the end, he could not escape the terrible disease that had afflicted him since 1975. But death, with whom he had an intimate relationship, at least came to him quietly -- as if out of respect.

© Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company

Kevin
Arlington, VA, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 00:41:22 (ZULU) 

To Kevin in Arlington: Thank you for posting Hunter's piece.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 06:03:59 (ZULU) 

I would like to join.
Stephen Wu <Arthur51@Hotmail.com>
Quincy, Massachusetts, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 15:26:59 (ZULU) 

Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 15:28:16 (ZULU) 

Have you tried e-mailing Redding with your dilemna? They are good folks and may be able to help you out even though catalog sez nope!
They are listed under "HotLinks"
Chao !

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 17:27:06 (ZULU) 

Jeff A,
I put my 3.5x10LR on the 260 and tried it out on the range out to 700yds. I used the JBM Ballistics program on SC to give me an idea of what to use for my dial's and it was right on the money all the way out to the 700yd mark. I wasn't off more than 2" at long ranges and you can't ask for more than that. The Varget and 142s are working great!! Its averaging around .5 MOA all the way out.I shot 3 shot groups out to 600 and a 5 shot at 700 and they averaged anywhere from .3 MOA to .6 MOA for the 700yd 5 shot group. The N135 load I tried was to hot with the 140s but fine for the 142s. I think the problem was the 140s are in the lands and the 142s aren't. They didn't shoot bad though, I plan on trying the 140 A-MAX when they get here I'll let you know how they do.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 17:27:28 (ZULU) 

Thanks for Stephen Hunter's article in the Washington Post about Carlos Hathcock's life.

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Shelby County, KY, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 18:34:34 (ZULU) 

It's been bugging me since I read that review in light of wanting to do this procedure myself. I'm able to keep .4-.5 groups all day long with my PSS but cleaning is a real BEAR. My CBS is 1" higher that point of aim and varies .5-.6 Anyhow, how about an update after a couple hundred rounds.

BTW, I really appreciate your chrono info you included with the review.

Zee
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 20:54:27 (ZULU) 

The scope has 60 MOA internal elevation adjustment. I currently need to dial in 45 minutes elevation to get sighted-in at 100 yards. But I would prefer to be sighted-in and still have most of my elevation to work with.

Considering this .22LR weapon won't shoot much farther than 125 to 150 yards anyway, should I just leave it alone? Would getting the Leupold medium or low rings make a big difference? If I did switch to lower rings, my concern would be that my head would not be in line with the scope anymore, due to the raised comb on the stock.

Any thoughts?

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 21:24:07 (ZULU) 

For those of you who are still interested, have 32 shirts left. My wife would certainly stop staring daggers at me if you all would order one soon! Thanks!

By the way, the shirt is going to be made from a top quality Fruit of the Loom Lofteez instead of the Hanes Beefy. This is a 6 ounce, 100% heavy cotton shirt and I felt the quality was a little better. The pocket has been dropped as the final product just looked better with out it. Thanks again to those of you who placed an order early! For those of you requiring XXXL, I ordered a few just in case. You might wish to email me to reserve one of these as I only have four left. I’ll try to get an image of the shirt and hat up on the page next week.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 22:43:10 (ZULU) 

Gooch, did your dog eat your keyboard?

Back to the grind. The UnDude
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 00:20:58 (ZULU) 

Bach, the Burris Signature rings that Pablito is talking about are great, you can solve all kinds of alignment problems with them. The .22 rings are .750 high. If I remember right you can get the weaver style or standard redfield style in .950. what kind of groups are you getting at 100?

Mike (dudely one) was that HK-33 the sniper version with the adjustable stock and grip or was it the standard STG? what was the problem with it? thanks
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 01:11:05 (ZULU) 

Sorry for straying off a bit, but this is the only place I haunt w/ numerous active bros.

Semper Fi,
Andre
Andre Peterson <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 02:22:47 (ZULU) 

Pat:

when you get to H-S, ask for the guy who makes their barrels shoot, then ask for Jeremy. Sent you an e-mail, but if yours is on the fritz this will have to do. 3:30 is no problem, I'm lucky if I get out of there by 7:00, I'll be around.

I'm wondering why suddenly at work I am being asked if I can get a 6.5 x 284 barrel made for Quantico. this just seems a little too coincidental with the talk on SC. If you wanna push a 140 gr 6.5 bullet at 3000 fps, go with a 9-9.5" twist, use 4831 or 4350, choose a tight barrel, you'll do all right.

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 03:12:55 (ZULU) 

Lastly, to answer a FAQ, the IBA ad also lists an email address, which is M40shooter@aol.com. (Sorry, still no website listed, for those who were going to ask!)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 06:22:19 (ZULU) 

To Lloyd: Jo (not "Joe" like it reads on the main page-- HINT!) Hathcock's address is under one of my posts in last week's archives for the Duty Roster.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 06:43:34 (ZULU) 

Title:
tom
USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 07:34:28 (ZULU) 

I'm in the market for a log book. This has been hashed around a LOT, previously. What are you folks using and why?
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 12:01:24 (ZULU) 

Dave-Broadsword,
Gooch Book, I Like it now what are they going to call the tactical shooting mat?

Zero,
If your 700 shoots tat good leave it alone, and yes I promise to post something once the rifle has a few more rounds through it.

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-GaWd, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 13:17:15 (ZULU) 

I would think the WMDB is designed for field/military scenarios where you are also an observer.

The LOD might be more applicable to LE, as much of the shot report pages are based on head shots.
They both have some nice things about them, but they both leave a lotta' room for improvement (are you reading this Gooch?).

If I had to pick one, I would go with the WMDB...
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 13:54:11 (ZULU) 

I have just decided to buy Remington 700 as my first long range rifle.
I Poland I can purchase 700 Police (24 inch barrel, heavy stock),
700 VSS and 700 VS SF (both 26 inch barrels). Can anyone help me to chose among mentioned guns.

Andrzej
Dr. Andrzej R. Stopczynski <stopczynski@kredytbank.com.pl>
Warszawa, Poland - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 16:40:28 (ZULU) 

T.R.G.T. has begun printing its new data book this week. Sheet size is 5 1/2" by 8 1/2". There are approximately 138 sheets, or 280 pages, in a book. This includes ballistics information for the .308/7.62 NATO cartridges. The book itself is expected to go for $30-35. With nylon case and some other features, expect a price tag of $50 - 60. Stand by for more details.

Operations Partner
T.R.G.T. - L.L.P.
 

T.R.G.T. - L.L.P. <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, CO, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 16:46:21 (ZULU) 

Still no Gooch. Dog must of gotten very hungry.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 17:58:43 (ZULU) 

I hope that the forthcoming GoochBook addresses this issue, in one way or another.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 18:16:39 (ZULU) 

140gr.bullet: 49gr. RL22/MRP/RP15, mv=2750fps in a 24" european barrel. In a tight US SS-barrel with molycoated bullets you are looking at 2800fps with a tailored load.

(To anybody else: DO NOT USE THIS LOAD IN A KRAG!!!!!)

In subzero freezing temperatures some norwegian competitionshooters use Federal 215 magnum primers. They claim this gives more consistant groups in longrange field-target.

Norma's 130gr (VLD,MC,BC:.55-something) Fieldtarget factoryround gives close to 3000fps in a tight US-barrel. This is the flattest shooting matchquality round in a standard calibre I've ever tried.

TorF <tor.fleime@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 19:56:32 (ZULU) 

Gentlemen,

I am looking into purchasing a savage tactical model in .308 to begin long
range sniper training with the friend I intend to join the marines with. Does
anybody have an opinion on this rifle I don't have enough money for a
remington but do want to begin shooting more then I currently do. Any
information would be greatly appriciated
Zack <FROM1000@aol.com>
Grand Rapids, MI, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 00:33:41 (ZULU) 

Mrbullet stopped by the shop today and let me in on the 6.5 140 gr. craze. Looks damn good, nearly identical to the 300Win @ the same bc. I could not believe how long the A-max was, and I now remit the 9-9.5" twist statement previously rendered until further notice. I'm gonna see if management will let me loose on a few test barrels. Have been questioned about making a barrel for a 6.5 x 284, will let you guys know how that comes out on paper if I can. I've never really looked close at the vld's, that will now change.

Pat:

Hope ya got to see everything you wanted, if not, we'll do 'er again.
 

JR
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 01:09:04 (ZULU) 

The TRGT book is the one that I and a couple of guys have been working on. One of the data pages we have in it is simply a circle that you detemine the size of and can draw what ever target you want around it. It is a hybrid of the Quantico USMC SSIS databook, NRA high power and the databooks I developed at the national Guard course. It has cold bore, KD, UKD, range cards, Observation logs, target engagment datasheets, ballistics tables, zero summary and range estimation charts. All with room for notes. It also has instructional information on moving targets techniques, reading wind, reading mil scales etc. It will be printed on rite in the rain paper (light green).

We are working on a 3 ring binder which will let you put notebook paper in it for miscelaneous notes.

THe TRGT web site (www.TRGT.com) will have more info when it is published.

Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 01:10:03 (ZULU) 

He has been an inspiration to us all and his spirit will live on forever. God bless.
SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning , GA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 03:31:20 (ZULU) 

Russ: Thanks for the information on the glass and pillare bedding.

al
AlOstapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Little Poland, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 05:09:26 (ZULU) 

To Zack: The current dealer price on the Savage 110FP Tactical is, the last I looked, $295 to $310, depending on where you purchase from. A "fair" retailer cost is $40 to $50 over dealer. Anything more than that and you would be best served to continue shopping for a dealer who isn't out to make his car payment based on ONE sale. Those who have more money know how to spend it, but for budget-minded shooters the Savage 110FP Tactical is a fine entry-level rifle. For a few dollars more (Clint Eastwood music, maestro, if you please), you can upgrade the stock if you wish. The two biggest complaints about Savages, from a functional viewpoint, are the stock and the trigger. The trigger can be adjusted down to 2.25 pounds -- less, if you aren't worried about the safety not working. (I recommend leaving the safety operational.) Scott Powers will point out, and I have previously agreed, that for the price of an equivalent Remington you are also getting a moderately decent stock. For now, however, if you buy the Savage, don't worry about the stock and the trigger. If YOU can shoot, IT will shoot. When you feel like you want to upgrade the rifle at some point, contact me offline and I'll give you some suggestions. Do yourself a favor and buy a few boxes of Federal GM308M for your rifle (presuming you buy one chambered for .308 Winchester). Good luck.

On log books: I can't believe there's still a perceived "void" in the log book arena. And, as I noted in E-mail to some of you a few days ago, certain "individuals" have collaborated on business effort. Among the items to be marketed are log books. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To SSG Cady: I sent you a request for some information. Please check your inbox and get back to me when you have a moment.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 06:10:44 (ZULU) 

To L.C. McCain: I responded to your request for outsourcing suggestions regarding your... um... "project"... but your return address was not valid. Please furnish a good address and I'll get the information out to you immediately. Also, thanks for the information on alloy scrap materials.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 09:05:18 (ZULU) 

Norma has a very nice ballistic "computer" on their website: http://www.norma.cc/

Norma's matchrounds are listed on the Swedish verson with english text...
.308Win match are loaded with Sierra 168gr and 190gr MK.

Have fun.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 11:05:12 (ZULU) 

This bullet is listed in Norma's ballistic "computer".

I've never heard of it before. It's not listed on Sierra's web.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 11:18:05 (ZULU) 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 12:44:30 (ZULU) 

Lets see, new Sierra 8mm slug and Remington talking about an 8mm Ultra Mag. Hmmmmmmmm? Could be a most gnarly combination for the mid-bore crowd.

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 13:15:14 (ZULU) 

Sierra 8mm HP Match 200gr, BC: 0.486

I think this is a bullet designed for 8X57IS.

MV for the old warhorse should be around 2700fps.

I think it's time to build a replica of a M98K sniper.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 13:26:37 (ZULU) 

Mark D
Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 13:29:02 (ZULU) 

You might also consider a Savage 10FP. It's the short action version of the 110FP. The shorter action will give you a bit more rigidity there. Given the choice, it is probably preferable for a shorter case round like a .308 or .223. It is otherwise pretty much identical to the 110FP (I note that all pictures of this rifle depict only one front sling post, but it has two, and I think the stock has checkering that the 110 doesn't). The only "drawback" I found is that the short action forces you to use a two piece scope mount (since all of the one piece mounts seem to be designed for the longer action).

Regarding the Savage trigger, it's really only bad when compared to the pull weight of a light match trigger. Outside of weight, the feel of it is outstanding. No creep, precise release. The fact is, you get used to the weight, and if you can get it down to 3 pounds or so, that's all you need, and it's less dangerous than an eight ounce trigger. Plus, if you learn to shoot with a heavier triggger, you won't get frustrated when it counts at the 500 yard line during qual day on your decidedly non-match M-16A2, when you join the Marines.

Should you decide that you must upgrade the trigger, there is one that is supposed to be excellent for the Savage. It is made by Sharp Shooter. I found a review in an older (late '97, maybe?) Precision Shooting. I guess it simply replaces the guts of a standard Savage trigger and is adjustable for 2 - 48 ounces, or something like that. Apparently it is a big item as there is a note in the latest Midway catalogue stating that demand is high and they are backordering.

Good luck on joining the Marines. Just remember, one day in the distant future, you will appreciate the fact that you were never so alive and immortal as the day you came out of boot camp. Hopefully, you do your best to keep the decline shallow from there!

Semper Fi,
André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 13:46:51 (ZULU) 

Frankonia Jagd, Cabela of Germany...

Still it looks like the bullets are coming to Scandinavia.

I'll try them out.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 14:32:32 (ZULU) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 15:57:18 (ZULU) 

To TorF and Steve: Thanks very much for the detailed response. Good work, gentlemen.

To Zack: Andre is quite right about the trigger, you do get used to it. Most of my life I never had a "match" trigger on anything I ever shot, and I did just fine. It's only around elitist types that you start hearing a lot of whining about stiff trigger pulls. Should you become an elitist, however, you can opt for the Sharp Shooter trigger. Midway's number is 1-800-243-3220. (If you know your calibers, you'll always remember Midway's phone number.) I also agree with Andre about the shorter action. Had they been available, I'd have bought my Savages with the shorter action instead of the longer versions. I'm not a good enough shot, however, that I could ever blame a miss on a "flexing action," so I'm not going to lose any sleep over having long-action Savage rifles. Unless you (insanely) choose a .300 Winchester Magnum for your first rifle, stick with the .308 Winchester or the .223 Remington and get your Savage in the 10- or 12-series.

To Steve (again): Seriously? THIRTY bucks for one hundred 8mm Match Kings? My God!
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 16:09:01 (ZULU) 

Russ you let others decide what they read. I skip over many a post that is not worth my time.

Gooch a Data Book is needed!
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 16:11:19 (ZULU) 

By switching, I assume that you mean having two upper receivers with individual Bolt carriers groups and attatched bbls, and that your intent is to mount one or the other to a single lower receiver?

If that's the case, why not just buy another lower receiver? It can't be that expensive and then you won't have to switch everything else. Otherwise there shouldn't be any harm in switching entire upper receivers once in a while.

If you are talking about mixing and matching two sets of PARTS for a single upper receiver housing, I don't know that I would do that. I know that they are supposed to be interchangeable and people do it a lot, but if you want to maintain accuracy of any weapon, chose a good set of parts and stick with them until they have to be changed. A rifle will wear with the parts in a particular way and develop certain tolerances. If you start swapping them around, you might sacrifice accuracy for interchangability. Not to mention the wear on the parts just from the swapping itself. And NEVER use a single bolt in more than one chamber. That can be very dangerous.

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 17:42:51 (ZULU) 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 18:19:20 (ZULU) 

It seems that I have a different perspective than you do on triggers.
Personally, I've gotten along with a lot of mediocre to lousy triggers. You're absolutely right, you can deal with it. But why would you if you don't have to? I don't see that as elitist.

Harris bipods: Brownells now sells a large, knurled nob that replaces the screwdriver-slot factory one. Has anyone used one? It looks like it might be a good idea... Or should I just tighten mine up so it's really stiff and then Loctite it?

Bolt: I have a pair of Steiner 8x30 Military/Marine binocs too, and I can second the recommendaton. Very clear optics, really good binocs. I paid full retail some years back which was $200.

dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 18:27:43 (ZULU) 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 18:40:37 (ZULU) 

As to my doing business with Huego and Gooch. I hacve talked with Huego sevaral times via E mail, he has never tried to sell me anything. Gooch has become a product tester so to speak. He has received no money and asked for nothing. He has helped me with lession plans(no compensation for him) He has never tried to sell me anything.

Now for you. I have watched you on this site for about six months. My 18 years as a cop, 15 of a sniper and weapons teacher has brought me to this estimate of your abilites. I doubt you have ever been in the Military, never a Sniper and most of what you claim to know is from reading Petersen Publishing Magazines. Prove me wrong!

Now this site is not for this type of thing so if all goes right I will be at the Carlos Shoot in Oct. if you want to take this up then. Look for me buying Fred and Dep. Dave Beers.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 18:41:14 (ZULU) 

I'm sure you'll get some applause on your comments. Bravo!

See, you miss the point. That is, I don't CARE what you think. I don't have anything to prove. I'm not even inspired to "prove" anything, and certainly not by your words. I also don't give a fat rat's petutie what you think of me, what I say, how I know what I know, or anything of the sort. I won't be at SMTC, ever, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

You couldn't have been "watching me" for six months because I haven't BEEN HERE for six months (give or take). I'm also not going to tell you "where to go," because there's no need. And again, you just don't seem to get it, I DON'T "CARE" WHAT YOU SAY. I don't care if you agree with me or not, I don't care if you spend your money with xxxxxxxx, I JUST DON'T CARE, Mike. Now... initially, my comment was about "the business." You took it upon yourself to address ME about my comments. That's fine. I owe you a response everytime you do so. That being the case, this is my response to your last post. Now, we can keep filling up the Roster with your comments, then my responses to them, or you can drop it, or take it up with me via E-mail. Or, just shut the f**k up. Call it.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 19:43:23 (ZULU) 

For the rest of you, DO NOT ENGAGE Russ in a verbal battle HERE on this roster. It ends HERE. The staff has ulcers enough trying to maintain the site and keep it interesting. Settling differences is not part of our job description. Please guys, keep the Roster to the point and leave the chest pounding to private mail. Thanks.

This is not censorship. You all can scream all you want via private mail. But do not drag the rest of the roster down. We all have bad days. When you have one don't drag everyone else into it.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 20:08:55 (ZULU) 

you're out of line, and you know it - DAMN WELL. LAY OFF!!

Gooch and company are welcome to advertise their wares here, whatever that may be. That is despite the fact that one of "...and company..." is not really. Gooch is as welcome to post on this forum as any other of our visitors is - including you.  Don't let that change - stick to the normal rules of etiquette, or learn them.  What happened has happened - let it be. In the end NO files were lost, as I had backups of everything.

Any further discussions on this matter WILL be offline, or I SHALL remove it as soon as I see it. You want to argue with Mike M, do so - OFFLINE. Same with me. Right now my mail is out of service, so I do not know what is waiting there for me.

That is ALL on this matter.

And if my English sucks, fine - after all it is only my second language.

And only now in "maintenance mode" do I see Scott's remarks - well said Scott, my point exactly.

Marius Ferreira - Webmaster
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 20:10:56 (ZULU) 

Mike M...
Where's the info on the sling you were going to send me...
I'm using a 1907, and would like something more "user friendly"!.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 21:42:19 (ZULU) 

Starting with caliber and rifle selection, the course worked through the basics of zeroing and long-range balistics, use of scopes and BDCs, log book record keeping, wind and range estimation, concealment, and tactics. Field exercises included zeroing for various distances, spotter/shooter drills on target designation, observation exercises, field shooting positions, and shooting drills on bobbing and walking targets. My personal high point was scoring five out of five hits on moving targets at 300 yards. Omitted due to time and facilities constraints were stalking exercises (though we examined some ghillie suits and covered their construction and use), estimating range in the field, and shooting past 600 yards.

Max and his team put together a very informative and enjoyable course for a long weekend, one that gave everyone an excellent introduction to many of the arts of sniping and packed a lot of training into a short period of time. If the class had a weak point, it was that, while proficient in these skills himself, Max may not be as capable as I might like in analyzing a student's shooting techniques and suggesting improvements. But, having done a lot of training under Louie Awerbuck, arguably one of the best shooting analysts around, it's entirely possible that I've been spoiled in that regard. TFTT is tentatively planning to repeat this class next year as everyone was pleased with the results.
Grasshopper <eric@safeword.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 21:46:02 (ZULU) 

USMC 08: IBA now has an ad that lists an email address, which is M40shooter@aol.com. To the best of my knowledge IBA still does not have a website.

Their other contact info is:

Iron Brigade Armory
100 Radcliffe Circle
Jacksonville, NC 28546
Phone (910) 455-3834

This was still current as of the last time I called them a few months back. Good luck on your inquiry.

"Bravo Two to Spectre, we've got unfriendlies all over the place down here, on my authority expend all remaining ordnance on my position I say again on expend all ordnance on my position. Delta Charlie. OUT!" ;)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 21:53:24 (ZULU) 

On a Sako .243 Ack Imp (1:8 Schnieder barrel), that was built to shoot the Berger 105gr VLD moly-coated bullet at 3150 fps using 48gr of H380 (moving to Vihta Vouri N160), on 2 of the rounds out of 200 (fire-formed and neck-sized only), the brass has been completely severed (top from bottom) during firing about 0.5" above the base. There isn't any excess pressure evidence in primer flow or any detectable separation evidence in any other spent casings.

On the first instance I believed it was excess pressure caused by the temperature "volitility" of H380 (and actually all non-temperature stable powders.) Well, when the second separation happened on a cool day away from direct sunlight, in a cool chamber--that theory went out the window.

Any thoughts are welcome -- especially from gunsmiths familiar with the .243 Ackley reaming.

Thanks, -Mike.
Mike Vader <scoplevel@scoplevel.com>
Livermore, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 23:11:12 (ZULU) 

need some technical data on these Vld's. Help me out guys, let me know where to look.
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 01:18:54 (ZULU) 

JR
What do you need to know about VLDs??? You might want to check Bergers web sight they give the recommended twists for some of the VLDs.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 03:23:53 (ZULU) 

what should be here is still here. What should not, is not - not all of it really, but some.

Just bypass the squibbles and rather read the good stuff - makes better reading than mud does is any case :-)

Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 04:11:20 (ZULU) 

After years of owning nothing other than semi-automatic rifles (Ruger 10/22's, AR-15's and a M1A-A1), I have reached the point where I want a rifle capable of truly outstanding accuracy. I'm mainly interested in the bolt-action "tactical" rifles chambered in .308 Winchester. The Remington 700-VS was my first choice, but after reading all the gun mags I felt that the Savage 10FP shouldn't be overlooked. Sounds like it should be an incredibly accurate rifle for a very reasonable price.

On to the information I'm looking for -

1) I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has "intimate" knowledge of the Savage 10FP/110FP as to their opinion of the rifle and its capabilities.

2) I'm planning on using a Springfield Armory ART-IV 3x9x40 scope (made for Springfield Armory by Burris) that I already have on my new rifle. Anyone have any experience with this scope and comments about its use on a tactical rifle?

3) Being limited to two-piece scope mounting bases on a short action Savage rifle (at least that appears to be the case), would the Redfield SR bases along with Redfield medium-height rings be a good choice for mounting the scope I have mentioned?

4) Does the "cheap" stock on the Savage 10FP hinder its accuracy? If so, are there any good tactical stocks available for this rifle?

5) Are there any good handloads for a .308 rifle that I should try using Winchester 748 propellant and Federal 210M primers along with either Sierra 168gr BTHP Match or Nosler 150gr Ballistic Tip bullets? [I've got a good supply of those components!] And what about using military cases vs. commercial cases? [I've got a good supply of Lake City military brass.]

I'm assuming from past experience that any new rifle is going to need some trigger work (or replacement of the trigger assembly with something better) no matter what brand of rifle I buy. So I won't ask anything about that!!

Looking forward to your input!

Gary <1GSX1166@msn.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 04:17:25 (ZULU) 

Anthony J. Rhoda III <aguidor@yahoo.com>
N.O., LA, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 06:01:06 (ZULU) 

has anyone of you heard, seen, or used "pencil" tracers ???

I saw some about 5 years ago while visiting with PMC-Eldorado, they were not in use there, but just a sample with a letter on the desk.
They looked like a piece of lead out of a pencil, and the idea was that you drill a hole in the base of the bullet and insert the pencil tracer into it. Burning temperature was to be a lot lower and barrel friendlier than regular tracer and they affects of the compound burning away were to be less drastic on accuracy.
I think they also had dim "IR" tracers for use with NOD´s.

Anyone Know of this manufacturer or process, please contact me.

Gramps,
still no incomming ! probably someone munching on them at customs?

173´s,
have a load of 43Gn. of PCL 507 now that pushes them at 820 M/sek. = 2500 ft/sek. Best 5 shot group´s at 300 Meters were down to 2.4 inches.

"Ende"
 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 07:50:13 (ZULU) 

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/5061/index.html
 

JR: Has H.S. ever considered making a stock along the lines of the VS or PSS for the Savage rifles? If not, it would seem you folks are missing an opportunity here as the demand seems to be fairly high judging from all the questions people ask on this subject. By the way, are the stocks Janet offered SC for review available yet for that purpose? I'd like to get to them soon before another show circuit starts. No rush, but I thought I'd ask! Later!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 12:23:17 (ZULU) 

Pup,
Don't think Rem. makes a long action in the 40-X single shot. This means that if you choose not to fire a cartridge, then you have to remove the bolt to get it out of there. Haven't seen any newer 40-Xs so can't comment on current availability on long actions. Something to consider though.

You may also want to make sure that decent bullets are available for your purpose. Up until a few years ago only hunting grade items were commonly available.

Worked on someone's Varmint Spl. a number of years ago. Never did get even one good group out of it. Must have been a poor barrel. Was scoped with a 36X Unertl. Now THAT is a piece of glass!!!

Off to make chips and sparks.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 12:33:31 (ZULU) 

Another approach that I've considered (although I don't really like the "Redfield SR/JR" type mounts/rings) is to use one of these with and "extended" rear and front ring. This would buy me another .600" or so of eye relief.

Does anyone have alternative suggestions? I would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

Rosco
Rosco Benson <roscobenson@earthlink.net>
Beavercreek, OH, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 14:58:46 (ZULU) 

My Next Question purtains to the mildot reticle. If I remember correctly I read that you guys can reduce error to 10-15% in ranging using the Mildot reticles. What formula do you use to derive this percent error. I am wanting to use a duplex reticle in range estimation for varmint hunting, and was wondering how acurartely I could do this. How much will the deviation in animal size effect this?

Thanks in advance,

Matthew
Matthew Marx <mam10@ra.msstate.edu>
MSU, MS, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 15:55:29 (ZULU) 

On to what this site is about. About Springfield Armory Scopes. I have tried several. My understanding is they are made by Hakko (spelling?) in Japan. That is what I was told about two years ago. I tried all there scopes and found them to be great looking but not what I would put on a working sniper rifle. I would go with a better scope. The scope seems to be often overlooked on rifles and the accuracy of many rifles is not brought out because of this. If you haven't bought it yet, please go with something with less promise and more go. I am not trying to offend you so please don't be. I just feel like I waisted my money on there scope and hope others don't.

H.S. Prescision, I have had there top of the line stock for about two months now. HS is the best stock on the planet. I would cancel my four month old order ffor another big name stock but I want to see how long it takes to get that A3 stock.

The Undude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 16:31:05 (ZULU) 

Excellent post to JR re: 260. I couldn't agree more. So you're gonna do a 6.5/284? I just love a new project. Took my 260 out last sat. and got caught in pouring rain. Still shoots like dream. Berger 140 vlds molyed w/ 39.gr. Varget. Rain pouring, rifle soaking wet. I shot until rain was so heavy I couldn't see target. Great fun....

Got one of those "long range" stocks from HS. Inletted for M70 long action. Got a used M70 LA CRF. Can you say "potential project"? Maybe 6.5/284? Don't know.
See, you just gave me something fresh and new to lie awake and obsess about.

What charge wt and pdr. type are you getting 2800 fps w/ 142 MKs?

Hope all is well w/ you and your family.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Hotlanta, Ga, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 17:04:47 (ZULU) 

Have you tried increasing the pull length of the stock? My mutant form consists of a spindly surfer Dude chest with basketball player length arms on a Herve Villachaize sized body........
But I found tacking on spacers or generally increasing the "correct" length by 1/2" made a world of difference. Heck of a lot easier to do than spending big bucks on rings and bases that may not work.
You wouldn't happen to know anything about that ther Paladin thingee from Ohier would you?

Chao!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 17:53:14 (ZULU) 

Here goes... I'm using new brass that's been once fired for forming only. (I did have a couple of shoulder splits in the fire forming, but I understand that's not unusual). Remember, these are the first fully formed loads through the rifle. The brass (2 out of 200) has "broken" (to use a better word) into two pieces. I come away with a piece looking like a jagged .45ACP case and, well, the other half, the top. They go back together perfectly and I think with a little JB Weld... just kidding.

According to conversations with Walt Berger (the VLD guy) my formula is right on for 600+ yds.

Any ideas?

-Mike.
Mike Vader <scoplevel@scoplevel.com>
Livermore, CA, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 18:00:56 (ZULU) 

Mike,
I don't know what to tell you about your cases I have never had any split or come apart. I used all Winchester brass for mine what brand are you using?? My Smith always cuts the chambers to the MIN. too.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 20:34:34 (ZULU) 

where do I get an email address for The Washington Post to get permission to put the above obituary of Gunny on the site? I do not want to spoil his legacy by doing illegal things.

Darrell Goff,
you're welcome. I suggest you also take a look at the Articles section, under Military and Sniping History. I just added a tributary to Gunny written by Stuart Meyers.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 20:52:42 (ZULU) 

Anyway, got a little heart warmer here.

Back in the mid 80's when I was an instructor at SSIS, Gunny Hathcock came up to Quantico to watch Junior shoot the Interservice Rifle Matches. He came by the Sniper School to say "Yo" as he usually did when he was in the AO and he decided that he would rather rack out in the office than stay elsewhere. (We had a bunk in the back, shower etc.) I loaned him my key, we had a few beers and I went home. When I came back the next day my key was laying on my desk with a thank you note that read, "Thank you all for the use of the wigwam and thank you for the use of the key! Snipers forever, GySgt C.M. Hathcock II"

I kept that note in my valuables since then and a couple of years ago I thought I had lost it. A day or so after Gunny passed away I was going through some of my old martial arts books and there it was! Pressed between the pages of my Isshin Ryu manual. Made my day.

Guys, don't be too sad about Gunny's passing. It's always sad to lose a father or a spouse but Gunny has gone to a better place and he isn't in pain anymore. I'm sure he is coaching angels on the use of a loop sling and trying to figure out what happens to the BC of a 173gr BTFMJ in heaven. I also heard he told St Peter that he could learn a thing or two about range maintanence from Col Willis. Easy Gunny, remember we all pushed lawn mowers at WTBn, you may find yourself humping a weed-eater.

See ya'll later.

Oh the answer to my question is,"a wanna bee".

Gooch
8541/11B4
Gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 21:46:41 (ZULU) 

Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 21:51:00 (ZULU) 

To Scott: That was an excellent review that you did on the Tasco binoculars. I have a old pair of M-19's and I find that ranging with the mil-scale works great up to 200 yards, after that it aint worth a crap. I know that one can use the hash marks and numbers for ranging at further distance, but I find it ackward at best. After reading your review and seeing how much trouble you went to to figure out how to use the scale on the Tasco, I just have to wonder that if you spent a similar amount of time with a good fixed-power Duplex rifle scope, you would wonder what all the fuss is over the mil-dot scopes. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 23:05:54 (ZULU) 

Does anyone have a source for the Chinese M85 Parker Hale style bipods? I havent gotten Shotgun News in some time, so my old sources are out. Thanks in advance.
Grenadier2 <grenadier2@earthlink.net>
FireBase Bandit, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 23:34:09 (ZULU) 

Scott:

I myself own a 30-06 Savage 110 barreled action which is just sittin' there waiting for an H-S tactical stock. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting. There was talk a few years back about a Savage stock coming into our line-up, I don't know what happened but it seems they are becoming a lot more popular among the mainstream shooters, so there is a good chance, hopefully, that they will consider it again.

Thanks for the info on the vld's everyone, will have the boss give ol' Walt a call, see if I can get something on paper about them. Checked out the Berger site, the .264 140gr vld's are calling for a 9" twist, have heard 8" mentioned, this is why I need some ballistic data such as bullet dimensions.

every day's a holiday here

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 00:24:57 (ZULU) 

This formula is called the mil-relation formula and it is the most accurate non-mechanical method of estimating range that we have available to us.

For this formula to be effective, you must know the size of your target in inches (this method can also be used with meters but we Americans are more familiar with inches). Since it is very improbable that you will be able to measure any live target that you might wish to engage, you should get measurements of anything that is standardized. i.e. common door shapes, windows, license plates, etc.
(It is also much easier to "mil" an inanimate object since it is stationary).

Once you know the size of your target in inches, you can utilize the following formula:

inches x .0254 x 1000 divided by the number of mils read in your optics = range to the target.

This method of range estimation, like other methods, requires extensive practice to become proficient.

If you do not know how the mils are broken down in your particular optics, read your TM or owners manual and it should illustrate the breakdown.

This is the exact method we teach students at the US Army Sniper School and it is an accurate and proven method.

Hope this helps.
 

Hope this helps.
SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft. Benning, GA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 00:55:04 (ZULU) 

inches x .0254 x 1000 divided by the number of mils read in your optics = range to the target

Why not simplify this by saying 25.4 instead of the ".0254 x 1000" portion??? Which would make it:

inches x 25.4 divided by the number of mils read in your optics = range to the target.

I'm no math whiz, but in mathmatical terms it would be considered poor form to do it the longer way (".0254 x 1000") so I'm wondering if there is some reason it is presented like that? Just curious.

Does the Army Sniper Scool teach the "quick" version for less precise work? That would be (2000) divided by (height of target in mils) = (range in yards), assuming a 2-yard target height. Or is that outside the doctrine?

By the way, if that's the same SSGT Cady that is in the Chandler's DFA Volume V, which I was just flipping through, I have to say that was some damn fine shooting!!!! Makes my head spin to think about it...

Gotto go, the sun is setting on a dirty AR barrel...
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 03:57:00 (ZULU) 

And you peteR: I'll give a Paladin thingee!! Tell me what Paladin's first name is and I'll give you a crack at trying to catch my trail at Storm Mountain. No Dude - wrong it is not "Wire". It did say "wire Paladin", but what mother would call her kid "Wire". Bubba maybe, but WIRE. Come on!! And what city did our "Have Gun Will Travel" hero reside at? It certainly wasn't Keyser WV.

Nice to see things cooling down here at the Duty Roster. Mike, What a Class Act!! Apology accepted by all - I'm sure!!

Kent: Nice to hear from you again! See you soon. Is Marcy at the Candlewick as "perty" as everyone (especially Scott) says she is?

Gotta go. Tomorrow is Phinally Phriday! Long week glad to see this one come to an end! Take care everyone and stay cool!!

al the Fly-boy from O-hi-er
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Mellowing in the Grand State of , Ohio, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 04:00:34 (ZULU) 

No we do not teach them the less precise methods, i.e. assuming a two yard target. We try to teach them only precision fire, and assumptions do not facililitate accurate shooting.

Every sniper in the US Army is currently issued an AN-PVS-6 Laser Range Finder. This alleviates the range estimation problem, but we ensure students know the mil-relation formula, in case their LRF fails, battery dies, etc.. Murphy is a bastard.

I have never used a "mil-dot" master, but I have heard about it. If anyone could post information on its use, accuracy, and reliability, I would appreciate it.

Yes, that was me in DFA V, the Chandler rifle I fired that day was the finest rifle I have ever held in my hands, bar none. Man that thing could shoot.

Later
 
 

SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning, GA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 11:49:04 (ZULU) 

Never watched much TeeVee as a kid, no time for sitting catatonically leering at a buncha Homo morons playing make believe.
I was too busy shooting real bullets and winning matches. So thar Huh!
But I've got a wire for you.....
"FLY-BOY IN THE WAIRE" Medics bring the KY A-1 dispenser Stat.
 
 

SSG Cady,

Nice post dude!, Next time you hook up with S/C scroll down to the In-Review section and wander theres an article on the Mil-dot Master in there soemwheres.Everyone thats got one uses it and more than once SWEARS BY it! And a lot of these guys are pickier than an IRS auditor.
 

Rollin, Rollin, Rollin, Keep that reloader Rolling..............
ooops!

Chao,

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 12:28:57 (ZULU) 

Yards 27.7
Meters 25.4
R. Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 13:00:51 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the great web site. Looks like a lot of good information from those who really know.
Dusty G. <dustpan@handgunner.net>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 13:05:59 (ZULU) 

Size of a object in Meters X 1000 divided by size of same object in Mils = Range in Meters !

Hey, maybe its so that us Infantry dudaa´s can figure it.

Strong, dumb, waterproof !

"Ende"
 

Torsten <laserco@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 13:33:40 (ZULU) 

As to your question about the Paladin Program; Yup, I'm one of those guys. I've been shooting with Rick Miller for 20 years. As Rick and I (and others) became unhappy with the direction that IPSC was going, we tried to come up with a shooting program that would offer a real-world-type challenge and, most importantly, give the shooter maximum flexibility in how to solve the problem posed. Since people like for things to have names, Rick coined the term "Paladin Program" to describe the concept. Paladin scoring was used in some of the Hackathorn Invitational matches (which evolved into the NTI). Also, the "Vickers count" being used to score IDPA, is largely based on Paladin scoring (with some modifications that I don't view as improvements). Rick also designed a more anatomically correct Paladin target that was an improvement over the IPSC "item" and "option" targets. IPSC world president J.P. Denis, of Belgium, modified the target slightly (with Rick's blessing) and adopted it for IPSC as the "Brussels" target. Rick has never tried to promote or even turn a buck on the Paladin Program. He writes up some of the things we work on in his monthly COMBAT HANDGUNS magazine column, but there's no website, no official merchandise, no secret decoder rings, or anything like that. It seems that, for Rick, just knowing that he has advanced the state of the art in practical pistolcraft is enough. I'm just pleased to have been able to help a bit along the way.

Rosco
Rosco Benson <roscobenson@earthlink.net>
Beavercreek, OH, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 13:56:09 (ZULU) 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news guys, but MIL relation is a parlor trick that works on E-shaped targets that don't move. Ever try doing a mil formula with a 10X scope on a human target that is doing his military business? There are huge problems in mis-estimating the height of the target and the smaller the target the easier this is to do. For example a target that is estimated at 6' high will result in a range calculation of 732 meters, using the MIL formula. Let's say that the target is actually 5'6". Range = 670 meters. Result? Overshot by 20" above the point of aim on the target. Now it has been mentioned that you assume a target to be 1 meter high from the crotch to the top of his head. Safe assumption except the smaller the target is, the easier it is to blow the MIL value on the scope. A 1/4 MIL error (it happens all the time) on a target that is 1.83 meters tall (6') results in a range error of 67 meters.

Another factor that comes into play is MILing a target that is on a slant angle. Targets on a slant have a smaller visual appearance to optics and the naked eye. Assume that you KNOW the height of a target to be 6' tall. If this target were on a 30 degree angle the apparent height of the target would be 5'2" tall (try this with a coke bottle, put a bottle on a table and look at it straight on. Then look at it on an increasing up or down angle, the target looks smaller every time). The result? If you milled the target at at 3.0 mils and used a target height of 6' your range would be 610 meters. The range to target if you do correct for the target height calculates out to 524 meters (this the correct range. This is a big overshoot situation. Dont forget the impact of this error on the effect on the trajectory for a 30 degree angle shot. The range to the target must be multiplied against the Cosine of the angle to the target. This is due to the overall effect of gravity on the bullet in flight in it's relationship to the surface of the earth. Correcting the range to the target for slant angle corrects 524 meters to 453 meters. Now starting from an orignal milling of 610 meters and having a true corrected value of 453 meters is quite significant. Mil relation is inaccurate and the #1 cause of snipers miss-estimating their range to target. Besides it isn't necessary on targets to 650 meters with the .308 rifle.

Comments are welcome. My background is that I am retired Special Forces from 1st SFGA. I was the unit master sniper for 2 years. I also worked at SOTIC at Fort Bragg, NC. from 88 to 92. The method called reverse image zero negates range estimation requirements to a range of 650 meters. If you're interested, let me know.

Hope this didn't come across to brass. I apologize, but I have heard quite enough about this mil relation stuff. Guys, take a girlfriend, friend or wife out and have her walk around at 600 meters and just do "stuff" and try to mil the target. Nuff Said.
 

Trigger <Trigger@drservices.com>
USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:05:50 (ZULU) 

It's nice to see the interest in 6.5mm rounds.

I have some recent data were the borderline goes:

6.5-300Wea., 26" Douglas SS-barrel: (Data from "Vapenjournalen" 8/97)

140gr BarnesX, 74gr MRP/RL22, MV: 3300fps,

140gr BarnesX, 79gr IMR 7828, MV: 3300fps,

156gr Norma, 73gr MRP/RL22, MV: 3200fps,

105gr NoslerP, 82gr MRP/RL22, MV: 3770fps, (!)

The BarnesX bullet increases pressure over regular bullets. I think it is possible to get 3400fps with a molycoated matchbullet with less bearingsurface. Pat, plug 3400fps with the A-max into your computer :-)

The Sierra 155 MK could be used with the 156gr/Norma data. Something for windy conditions?

The 105gr Nosler data could be used for Sierra/Lapua 107gr VLD's, altough I think they will blow apart midair.

The 130gr Norma VLD, BC:.549, should be able to go 3500-3600fps.

If someone has enough money I recomend making 3 identical barrels and some sort of quickchange-setup :-)

I have a BRNO 602-action, 1 round in the chamber an 5 in the mag? :-)
 
 
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:22:44 (ZULU) 

Any relation to Dusty in Memphis? (sorry, couldn't resist.)

You may have some trouble putting a one piece Leupold base on a short-actioned Savage. Leupold claims to make one, but I suspect that it's not out yet, or it's not very widely distributed, because I can't find anyone who can get it. Any two piece mounting system that fits your rifle should fit OK. All though you do run the risk of having the scope on a tiny angle due to the difference in action length (I don't know if this is a real issue, but it's allways a risk when you have to use one rifle's mounting system on another rifle). I ended up putting weaver mounts on my 10FP, but I haven't shot it at long range to see if the scope is usable at distance yet.

Which leads me to my nit for the day: When are these aftermarket and accessory companies going to wake up and start producing things for Savage rifles? God, you can get about 48 different triggers, 326 stocks, and 2,458 scope mounting systems for every variation of the Rem 700. But try putting diddly on a Savage, and you get a blank stare over the counter from the local gunshop clerk.

What are you supposed to do you do if you do not have, or do not want, a Rem 700? The obvious reason is that it is a self sustaining cycle. The aftermarket companies know that more people shoot 700's than Savages, so they make more parts for them. Then people want to buy a rifle, see that 700's are more easily upgradeable, so they buy them. 700's then become even more popular, which just reinforces manufacturers like Jewell or H-S to not bother with the lowely Savage.

Like any industry, it's not about producing great products that are here to benefit us, the consumers, it's about making money. Any of you on this sight that work at any of these aftermarket and accessory companies, please start pushing for Savage gear. It's every bit the rifle that the 700 is, but it's not even given half the chance.

Sorry Dusty, I just couldn't contain myself...

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
minneapolis, MN, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:33:19 (ZULU) 

Sorry if this is a stupid, I'm new to the rifle thing, been more into handguns.
Dusty G <dustpan@handgunner.net>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:50:52 (ZULU) 

Tony,
If the brake is installed properly it should have no effect on accuracy and in most larger caliber will increase accuracy due to the shooter not being beat up by recoil and flenching. There great on the big guns but I hate them because of the blast.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:54:03 (ZULU) 

Yes, the two piece mounts should fit fine.

André
Andre
USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 15:09:15 (ZULU) 

Ha! That bit about getting my girlfriend to walk around 600 meters downrange and do stuff while I size her up gave me a chuckle...

I would be interesting in hearing about reverse zero image. If you get a second, please post more info.

Many times I don't actually range off of a moving object, such as a soldier working. I tend to range off of the most stable object withing a few feet of the target. (Such as a tire or a window)

Another mention would be your sloping shot reference. You are quite right about the "compression" of objects at an angle. Negate this by using the windage MIL scale on the scope. As long as you're not oblique to that object there shouldn't be a problem.

Keep in mind that I am a civilian who's never fired a shot in anger, so I don't have any knowledge of doctrine or formalized training in these matters.
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 15:40:50 (ZULU) 

Post away on reverse imaging, if i'm curious guess most of the rest would like to hear about it too!
 

Roscoe,
Cool, and Welcome! Bring in some of your buddies. I'm also very interested in practical applications of handguns to solvable defensive scenarios. Since this is pretty much rifles,E-mail info to me and I would be most appreciative!
 

Fly-Boy,

Nyah-Nyah! Told you so! ;-)

Gooch,
E-mail me about your CZ, I'm interested ...............

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 15:45:44 (ZULU) 

Molly: This is more of a question than anything else. Has anyone else experienced a cold bore shot inconsistentcy with Molly. I have and it has forced me to leave it alone for my working rifle. To bad I hate cooper fouling.

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 15:54:05 (ZULU) 

Thanks!
Lee Crestling <shooter7@hotmail.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 16:04:23 (ZULU) 

Comment about laser range finders first. Ever heard of laser detecters? For about 100.00 you can get a detector made that detects and gives an audible warning to a laser hit from a range finder. Cheap protection for high value targets. Not only will you NOT get an accurate range, but you're mission is compromised before you even shoot. There is another little thing called laser counter measures. So don't put alot of faith in laser rangefinders. And batteries are the least of the problem.

The Point Blank Zero and the Reverse Image Zero are two methods of engagement that use the dimensions of the trajectory to engage targets of unknown distance; without determining that distance first. The concept of the Reverse Image Zero isn't all that new. It was only recently rediscovered and modified to apply to modern rifles with better trajectory performance. The earliest reference that I could locate to the concept of Reverse Image Zero (referred to in this material as the Negative Angle Sighting is in "The Theory of the Rifle and Rifle Shooting". Lieutenant H. Ommundsen advanced the idea of a negative angle sighting towards the beginning of 1912. Sir George Greenhill advocated it in a lecture at the Institution of Electrical Engineers on the 19th of January 1912.

"With a certain rifle and ammunition select a trajectory, the greatest height of which is twice that of the target desired to hit. For instance, with the service short rifle and MarkVII ammunition an 11 foot high trajectory (that is to say, a trajectory, the maximum ordinate of which is twice the height of an average man) is given with a range of something under 700 yards. Using the combination of rifle and ammunition mentioned, this would be the trajectory selected for the negative angle sight."

The rifle and ammunition that the author is referring to is the .303 Enfield rifle. The concept is that the shooter looks at his target downrange. He then mentally projects where the top of the head of the mirror image of that target would be. As noted in the material, the trajectory selected is for twice the height of the target. The standard target height was a 6' man. The trajectory for the .303 Enfield that is roughly double that 6' high man is the maximum ordinate for 700 yards. The shooter placed a setting on his iron sight for 700 yards. Then by aiming at the head of the reverse image of the target, the round will not be higher than the height of the human target downrange.

To introduce this method we will again refer to the range of 700 meters as was mentioned in the early text in 1912. The first difference to note is that we are dealing with 700 meters. This is because the bullet drop compensator used on the M-24 system is graduated in hundreds of meters. The following ballistic facts are presented:

§ The Maximum Ordinate for the .303 Enfield round at 700 yards is 11'6" above line of sight.
§ The Maximum Ordinate for the 7.62mm Special Ball round at 700 meters is 73" above line of sight.

There is a huge difference in the ballistic trajectory between the cartridge of 1912 and the current use sniper cartridge. The maximum ordinate for the M118 round is almost exactly half that of the .303 round. How is this significant? The shooters that had the .303 round and iron sights had the problems mentioned above. Those being; targets difficult to see and identify clearly, iron sights, and windage holdoff problems. Current snipers have precision optical aiming instruments that allow them to see the target much more clearly than with iron sights. This is significant because with the maximum ordinate being only 6 feet and the target size being 6', the bullet never rises above the targets height from a range of 0 meters to a range of 700 meters. The picture on the left shows the point of aim that is required for a shot on a target between 50 and 675 meters.

By aiming at the targets feet, you are assured that the bullet NEVER RISES ABOVE THE TARGETS HEAD all the way downrange to impact. Of course, at the range of 700 meters, the round will land at the targets feet, just where the shooter is aiming. This technique that was pioneered in 1912 (officially) was tough to work with the sights of the time. The ammunition was also of poor performance and had very high maximum ordinates at the ranges this method was developed for.
The image here depicts the trajectory and it's approximate points of strike on targets between 100 and 700 meters. As you can see, there is a danger point in the range where the round at 400 meters is at its highest point in the flight. The round at 400 meters will strike in the head area. This is the narrowest part of the target and observers must be aware of the subtlest winds when targets are around 400 meters. One way to deal with this is to give windage data to the shooter for 400-meter winds and let the shooter determine if the target is in that danger zone. He then applies the wind as he feels fit based on the range to the target.

The good thing about this technique is that it isn't at all limited to any one cartridge or range for that matter. The size of your target or a part of that target only limits it. Refer to the .50 caliber Mark 211, Mod-0 ammunition table in Chapter 3, page 14. Look at the column for Maximum Ordinate in Feet. Trace down that column under you find the first elevation that is nearest to, but not more than 6'. The range for that max. ord. is 800 meters. If you set a sight setting of 25.50 MOA for 800 meters and hold at the bottom or feet of the target downrange, you will put a round through that target as long as he is somewhere between 100 and 750 meters. At ranges past 750 meters, the rounds are below knee height. In this case, the max ord is slightly lower than for M118 ammunition, and you gain another 100 meters in killing range without ever determining the range to the target.

Another method can be used if you have a very high performance flat shooting rifle. In this example, a .300 Winchester Magnum shooting a 185 Grain Lapua Match bullet at 3250 fps is used. In this case, we are only going to use a portion of the human target frame. We are going to shift our point of aim from the feet to something more easily seen and located on the target. That is the crotch of the target. With this load, we have a very flat trajectory. The trajectory is very flat for a distance of 700 meters and this allows us to rise out point of aim to the crotch level.

We would do this because our targets are not expected to be presented past 650 meters or so. A flash MIL reading that shows the target to be of a greater value than 1.5 mils confirms that the target is within 666 meters. This method works so much faster because the shooter and observer both know that the scope is set for a Reverse Image Zero condition. They both know the point of aim and the maximum range that they can engage targets. The team can do a precise range determination on the ground using triangulation to a non-specific point on the earth.

Whenever a target pops up anywhere between the team and that pre-ranged point on the ground, they simply hold on the crotch and the observer gives a wind call for a range he thinks is close to the target. The whole time from spotting the target to the first shot going downrange is 6 seconds or faster depending on the team's experience in this method. That is much quicker than some school's standard of 1 minute from the time the observer starts talkin