Sniper Country Duty Roster

Thought that this cartoon would bring some humor.

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2004/06/24/

hope you enjoy as much as I did.

Morgue

Mourge
Thursday, March 1, 2007, at 04:29:09 (ZULU)

It seems that this "Old Reliable" Sharps has accompanying paper work. Someone who saw the document said that the rifle fought in the War of Northern Agression, the war with the Plains Indians and served a professional buffalo hunter. I'm going to see if I can get a photocopy. If so, and if there is any interest, I'll summarize and post the summary here.

Robert Opp: "He has himself a piece of history that one doesn't often run into, why on earth would he take the chance of something happening to it?"

Because He's crazier than a three-balled billy goat. For years he hunted all his big game with a 50+ year old 870 with only a bead front sight. He shot deer, elk - including a good one - and stopped a black bear charge in Alaska with the thing. He's a big, happy space cadet. Kids love him.

JR: Trade the .454 for a couple of .45 Government Models and You've got a deal.

CDC'
Thursday, March 1, 2007, at 13:04:13 (ZULU)

CDC:

>>>...if there is any interest, I'll summarize and post the summary here.<<<

Interested...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, March 1, 2007, at 14:15:36 (ZULU)

Can anyone tell me how much work needs to be done to fit a McMillan stock to a barreled action - I have two:

(a) L579 "Forester" action in .308 with the original light carbine barrel?

(b) CZ550FS in .308 - I bought the full stock version. The stock is not pretty, but the 20" barreled action would make a nice rifle on a better standard stock.

I can do/will try simple bedding, but if it reaches the cosmetic/cosmic level, probably not. How close to "drop in"? Or not at all? If I have to do the action and gross barrel channel, not much point in getting it painted first...

Thanks.

P. Hayden
USA - Thursday, March 1, 2007, at 23:32:19 (ZULU)

Sit-Out

Turn-In

BRIDGE!!!!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, US of A - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 00:25:34 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thanks for the response. I got my case of 175's in today. Looks like American shooting center out to 300 this weekend. Do you know what they require to shoot their 600 yd range?

Think I should fire off an Email to TonyB and see if he's up for some shooting? He told me once he had a 1000+ to play with somewhere down around Alvin.

I guess no one cares for Lee or Hornady Single Stage presses here! I know if lito had my ear he would say go get that Gorilla Nut Cracker at CH4D !!

I've been reading the archives for the entire 2006. Downloaded the whole year. Takes me about 2 days to read an entire month at work.

(I'm in june06 now)

I'm Running some really big parts at work which in the industry gives me what we like to call "ass-time"!

Achtung!

Das machine is nicht fur Gerfingerpoken und mittengraben.

Is easy schnappen der springenwerk blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken.

Is nicht fur gerweken by `Dummkopfen`.

Das rubbernecken sightseeren keeping hans in das pockets

JerryC
Cypress, Tx, USA - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 00:31:03 (ZULU)

Redhawk- I haven't seen the inside of one in.....a lot of years. If I recall correctly, this was Rugers version of the Great Leap Forward with only one spring running the entire action. As a result, you can't get a really primo action job. Better than factory, but not primo. I also recall going into the frame recess on the couple I worked on with files to remove rough spots that dragged on the various working parts.

IIRC, the Super Redhawk returned to using a hammer spring and a trigger return spring. This means you can-theoretically- get a better trigger action. Although a 4 inch SR would look a wee bit wierd?

WR Moore
Friday, March 2, 2007, at 01:30:53 (ZULU)

JerryC: ASC used to require that you demonstrate proficiency by hitting a target at 300 before they'd let you shoot at 600. Dunno if they still do - I quit shooting there a couple of years ago when they banned suppressors for some reason which made absolutely no sense, and I no longer live in the Houston area (thank God).

Tony does have a place to shoot as far as anyone cares to go. He's been pretty busy of late with a job as well as an outside business keeping him busy - however, he ought to be doing some shooting to get ready for a match the weekend of March 23-25, and he perhaps could use some encouragement.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 02:35:49 (ZULU)

I saw on the tube, a shot show special, S&W is bringing back the M-29 and the old "lemon-squeeser" 38 snubbie. Two of my favorite wheel guns. If 44mag and 454 recoil to much for practice,use 44spec.and 45colt for practice and the mags for serious work.

If I could only have one gun for "everything" it would be a 4" M-29 in 44 mag.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 03:45:01 (ZULU)

Lindy,

I knew you moved down to Kingsville area (Riflesonly).

Good to hear all the work you been doing down there.

Hit me offline(email) with some details.

You got some time yet before you pull up stakes and head north doncha?!

I knew Tony was needlin away at his new CO(ha made a pun!).

I'll have to get a few things from him and show him some Patronage.

That's kinda why I was wondering if he was keeping up with his Shooting.

I'm the one that could use the help!!

JerryC
Cypress, Tx, USA - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 04:07:14 (ZULU)

Using .44 Special brass in a .44 Mag causes a ring to form just ahead of the mouth of the case. When you go back to Mag rounds, the case expands to fill the the ring and extraction becomes difficult.

Same with .38 Special and .357 Mag. About 30 years ago I did that to a Python.

I still grieve.

CDC'
Aim small, miss small., - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 04:46:22 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Joe M: I can't give advice about .44s to anyone that has used one to kill a bear at close range.

Pat II
Friday, March 2, 2007, at 05:13:23 (ZULU)

Pat II: Bears...the two things that stand out on that trip: Four Second Lieutenants comprised the fishing crew (let the jokes begin:))--and it was, by alaska standards---in my backyard within a stone's throw of the Richardson HWY (salcha r. off the Tannana r.). Mr. bear got zapped because I was stupid and he was on his game. I went into thick stuff with a laser focus on my truck and oblivious to immediate surroundings; I went alone; and I passed up a more open path to bee-line.

With all the time I have in the woods---I've seen plenty of bears. Usually, a fleeting glimpse of their ass end. Sometimes, a bear made me change course or move down the river some. But never before or since did I see one that close. A bunch of folks carry a bunch of brands--I've seen more than a few carry Hicap 9s (save one for yourself before you get added to the menu)--to the daddy back then--454C.

What you got is half the equation. The other half is how you use it!

So, the slightly lighter 4" is easy for me to carry without discomfort (meaning I will), while being controllable enough to bang away without hurting. These things fit me in the right ways.

Heheh, then Ruger added a 4" that I know nuthin' about, so I had to ask. Ya'll be surprised how many of youz gots the bigger rugers:))

But, afterreading all that I got in response, I'm sticking with the 629. I kinda know what I am getting with one, and I will just find a shop with several to choose from.

Lotta bandwidth for "handguns" on a long gun site...I need a life!

Youz guys in 'Bama keep yer heads down. The tragedy in Enterprise was my old neighborhood. Seeing those UH-1Vs at the high school collapse tells ya how bad it was...

DOC Holloway: Me and the fam will be in Branson over the weekend of 8 Apr...would like to make a swing by and say hi. Heheh, and it looks like another FL trip in July. That would be the one where I go by way of Houston and have no time for anyone:))

Edited for content. Toooooo long by far

Joe M
Friday, March 2, 2007, at 06:51:38 (ZULU)

Longrange shooting in deep snow. ( click my name )

Check out the wireless Megalink electronic target.

The Sauer STR (here topped with a PMII) is the standard DCM-rifle in Norway. Sold by the thousands and cost USD1500 + tax.

I was trying a brand new Sako 75 VLSS, 308win, and for fun topped it with an old Weaver T16. Rings are original Sako Optilock without separate base. The HK91 with 4x24 and PSG1-trigger is mine as well.

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 08:26:28 (ZULU)

Torf:

Got a URL for the wireless Megalink electronic target?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 13:13:34 (ZULU)

torf,

Great pictures!!! Looks like a fun shoot. I sent my 6.5x55 back to have the throat shortened up. When it was built he used a reamer that had to long of a throat for the 142s and 139s.

I finally got it to shoot around .5moa out to 700yds. I decided to send it back to have the barrel set back and just ran out of time to shoot it on out to 1000yds.

Part of my trouble was I was oversizing the brass and ruined 300rds of new Lapua brass. I think I have a set of screwed up Forrester BR dies. I have several sets of their dies and have always set them according to the inst. but after the second firing the brass started to show signs of seperation. I also have up to .005 runout on my bullets which is really unusual. All my other 6.5s and 6MMs have "0" run out on the bullets.

So now I will start over trying to find me a good load. I haven't had any luck with any of the powders that are suppose to shoot well in the 6.5x55. I tried N-160 and it didn't do very well nor did RL-22. I did have some good groups with N-165 and had the best accuracy with H4831SC and the Sierra 140s. (That was the only bullet that would reach the lands).

I was having trouble with flat primers and thought it was pressure but it was the "Oversized" brass slamming back against the bolt face, not pressure. I hope it turns out to be a good shooter. Hope all is well with you!!!

Pat
Friday, March 2, 2007, at 13:19:21 (ZULU)

rod:

http://www.megalink.no/defaultEN.htm

The target used is a 300m ISSU with wireless link from a running target range to the monitor. The system worked great at 530m in the winter conditions. There are pictures of the system on page 4 in the thread. (The boy shooting a Sauer Huntingmatch is 12 years old. His mother is spotting..)

Another Norwegian electronic target:

http://english.kme.no/

Tor

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 13:30:23 (ZULU)

Dear Abby:

My husband is a liar and a cheat. He has cheated on me from the beginning and during our whole marriage. When I confront him, he denies everything. What's worse, EVERYONE knows that he cheats on me. It is so humiliating.

Also, since he lost his job five years ago, he hasn't even looked for a new one. All he does all day is smoke cigars, drink, cruise around and bullshit with his buddies, while I have to work to pay the bills.

Since our daughter went away to college he doesn't even pretend to like me and hints that I may be a lesbian.

What should I do?

Signed, Clueless

Dear Clueless:

Grow up and dump the sonovabitch. Good grief, woman. You don't need him anymore.

You're a United States Senator from New York. Start acting like one.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 14:01:36 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Sounds good to me. You're always welcome.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The windy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, March 2, 2007, at 15:05:10 (ZULU)

sorry, still hunting for PPK parts for a shooting buddy.

Gun Parts Corp and Jack First are dry of the specific part needed ("old style safety catch")

Any other possible sources for WWII era PPK parts?

Tks.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 01:06:57 (ZULU)

Try Marstar in Canada, but you probably have.

http://www.marstar.ca/waltppppks.htm

At this point you are just trying to get lucky.

Can you modify the current post WWII part?

This is an example of what you can find on e-bay:

Item number: 180090130931

Item number: 280088418044

(Long ULR removed for brevity)

I can't tell whether they are pre or post WWII, but keep looking.

I would e-mail the seller in France and tell him what you are looking for

- Europe may be your best bet.

P. Hayden
USA - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 01:23:45 (ZULU)

P. Hayden:

Good suggestion, already tried Marstar and Western Gun parts in Canada (no joy).

Supposedly the old safety is designed around a square profile firing pin, new is designed around round.

I'm trying not to get pulled too deep into this project, "real" gunsmiths in Canada are sparse (as opposed to parts changers).

No-one who would do a good job of such a mod and is doing such work comes to mind.

If it was my own PPK it might be another matter, I'm done some minor gunsmithing of my own.

Audience lesson for the day - try and modify the cheapest part when fitting...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 01:34:53 (ZULU)

Walther PP series safeties take the full force of the hammer -

and can eventually break (firing when they do).

Always best to not use them as a de-cocker.

I would think the firing pin could be swapped with the safety,

or the new model safety opened up.

I have only rebuilt one PP, but there are a million fragile little

parts in that sucker. It makes you appreciate the 1911.

P. Hayden
USA - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 01:53:25 (ZULU)

Thats a good one Catshooter

So Jim, did you go on vacation?

doug sickels
Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 02:51:57 (ZULU)

Fire Mission at the Brady Campaign.

Participate if you so incline.

(click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 05:50:13 (ZULU)

`Lito,

Almost did a spit take on that one. Caught me in mid gulp.

Steve Racer
Somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 09:11:18 (ZULU)

re: brady survey

I answer the questions in a way that shows no support for their agenda and here's their reply. <rolleyes>

______________

Thank you for participating in our 2007 Legislative Priorities Survey, your feedback will help the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence get a strong start to the new year. We are so grateful for your support.

Capitalizing on the seismic shift on Capitol Hill, your Brady Campaign is going on the offensive to advance our legislative agenda to strengthen US gun laws. Americans are looking to us to turn our electoral victories into concrete action to get guns out of the hands of criminals.

We will succeed in this endeavor in the same way we succeeded in the 2006 elections — by bringing to the fore the voices of reliable, thoughtful Brady Campaign members like you.

Thanks to your participation, we will show that Americans like you demand that strengthening US guns laws be at the top of the congressional agenda.

Help us build on our voting majorities in both the House and Senate to pass a new ban on military-style assault weapons, closing the gun show loophole, and other life-saving gun laws by making a generous contribution today.

By working together, we can create a nation free from gun violence, where all Americans are safe at home, at school, at work, and in their communities.

Sincerely,

Your Friends at StoptheNRA.com

___________

They prolly count any participation as support for their cause.

Fred Bittner
PA, USA - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 15:19:34 (ZULU)

Hey youz guys...

I thought the ol' broad (Brady) had lung cancer. What happened and how come she is still alive and being a pain in the ass???

Not that I would wish lung cancer on anybody.

Well, I guess I can make an exception in her case

OK...

"I HOPE THE OL' BITCH SUFFERS FROM METASTATIC LUNG CANCER, AND ROTS IN A SWARM OF TUMORS ON THE CBS EVENING NEWS WITH KATIE CURIC" !!!!!!

There. I know that was a badd thing to say and I should feel guilty, but it made me feel better, so I can chalk it up to therapy!

See... the liberals have taught me that I can rationalize ANYTHING :))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 17:32:42 (ZULU)

Gents,

MK IV: Took the Brady poll. Don't know why. Those folks are so convinced they are right that no amount of negative input can change their minds. Folk like these are so sure they have the moral highground that they are going to drag the rest of us kicking and screaming into "their" future. When that happens I hope I'm smilin' and knee deep in shell casings...

P. Hayden, can't help a lot on your needed PPK part. The folk I know about have already been mentioned. Although you might try SARCO on the outside chance that they have one. Not familiar with Canadian import laws on gun parts. OF course it could be a "machined part/striker assembly"...;-)

Spendy, but have you considered having the part made?

Joe M. As said, I can't give advice to a man that's used a .44 to kill a bear in "extremis". Think Pat II and 4 I's summed it up well. My own new/used M-29 arrives today. Depending on the postal service that may be Monday. Try not to hate me to much...

Yeah, S&W is making these again, but not in a 4" barrel length and NOT without that dammed new safety thingie. Plus, I got this one for considerably less than they want for the new stuff. Just love the blued, pinned barrel, and recessed chamber N-frames.

CDC on "ringed" chambers. Just another reason I don't shoot shorter cartridges in magnum length chambers. Besides, .44 Mag brass is usually the same cost or cheaper. Still, it's nice to have the option if ammo ever gets hard to come by and you get ahold of some...at that point I suppose anything that goes bang would be good.

Also, this gives me another good reason to own a .44 Special.

'Lito, dammit man, give me some warning next time on Hillary jokes. Luckily, I'd just swallowed that mouthfull of coffee!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 18:44:50 (ZULU)

re: S&W 629's

The newer model fixed a design flaw in the older units that the Silhouette shooters found. When Shooting heavy .44 Mag loadings, the cylinder could actually unlock after firing and reverse rotate to an already fired chamber. One of the parts was lengthened and a notch re-shaped to fix that issue.

If I was planning to shoot heavy recoil loadings out of a '29 series,

I would want the product-improved version.

http://www.sixguns.com/range/SmithWesson44Mag.htm

[snip]

"For years, Smith & Wesson refused to acknowledge a problem that definitely existed. It became especially prevalent when silhouette shooters started pounding hundreds of rounds of fullhouse loads down range in a single day. When a cartridge was fired, the cylinder would unlock, rotate backwards and when the hammer was cocked, the fired round would be back under the firing pin. Silhouetters literally "beat their swords into plowshares" as far as the Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum was concerned."

[snip]

"The 29-4 lasted only two years to be replaced by the 29-5 in 1990. Now we began to see obvious outer changes in the Model 29 as the cylinder notches were made longer to prevent the bolt from jumping out of the notch upon recoil. At the same time the bolt was changed and the innards of the Model 29-5 were changed to provide a method of holding everything tightly together when the .44 was fired to prevent battering under recoil."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 19:32:16 (ZULU)

No Walther PPK parts listed on SARCO Inc web site :-(

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 19:37:49 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

The discussion about guns and gun rights came up again at work this week. I thought about the root causes of the left`s (mostly) relentless pursuit of the destruction of the 2nd amendment, and this country as a whole (they are inextricably linked IMO). When I ask myself the pertinent questions and all the answers contains 'but, why...', this is what I came up with. Do not adjust your set. please stand by.

Tyranny. (even here, 'but, why..' ) Plain old garden variety. I tire quickly of the disingenuous horseshit that passes for concern and good policy for the safety and welfare of this great country. I do not believe for one minute that they have anything other than the mass disarming of the citizenry in mind. An armed citizenry cannot be controlled easily. I think others throughout history understood this also. The posturing and posing the pols do to get re-elected insults the intelligence of the average person who cares to give even the slightest notice. They are fooling no one except the useful idiots. Since, I believe, the root of tyranny is evil in it`s purest form, I see no need to allow any of these high-and-mighty, fluff pots, to have the moral high ground. Ever. They serve themselves to the detriment of us all and should be wacked back into their putrid little holes every time they poke their pointy little tin foil heads out to squeak prophetic one more time. I believe evil has a way of being dealt with, and it should be so. When ones only reason for being is to gain absolute control of others, they cease to be human in my mind. They are attempting to subvert our humanity for their control. They should be put down like sick animals.... then go for breakfast.

To me, The Constitution is crystal clear on this. To me, common sense is crystal clear on this. How the hell can so many people become so stupid in such a short time?! My biggest problem is that I don`t know what the solution is. Seems like throwing my hands up and shrugging don`t cut for me anymore. Bending to the lib`s will is not an option, for me or the country. I belong to the NRA (does it help? not sure), I constantly rant on this subject and even people who agree seem taken aback at my attitude. I write to my elected officials. Even offered a free day at the range to one moron. Perhaps my passion on the subject is off-putting. Perhaps it scares some 'more civilized' folk. Don`t know-don`t care. And here I am preaching to the choir because it`s all I got. It seems no action is enough to change the tide. I find it frustrating, to say the least. Is it really as simple as they just want to be high paid, powerful, blowhards? What is the purpose when assured destruction of the country is guaranteed? Is there a twelve step program for me? Suggestions? (Other than the obvious, not fomenting here)

I considered long and hard about posting this. I`ve read similar over the years, but once again, does it do any good? Can only imagine how those of you who served to maintain our way of life feel about this if I feel this strongly.

Sorry for the rant. Collecting myself now....

Steve Racer
Somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 21:24:43 (ZULU)

Or, better said;

"...An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."

Col. Jeff Cooper

Steve Racer
Somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 21:44:35 (ZULU)

John Farnum with a charging Cape Buffalo at 25meters...

Perhaps even more exciting than a Griz at handshake distance :-)

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/10Feb07.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 3, 2007, at 22:31:00 (ZULU)

What was causing the model 29's to unlock and rotate backward was excessive endshake. The cylinder would be accelerated to the rear and cause the hand to disengage. The bolt would be tending to pull out of the notches under recoil and the cylinder accelerating to the rear would give it a boost (sloped ends of the bolt notch).

The redesign of the bolt and notches was done since endshake was going to naturally increase in hard use. And, it was cheaper than better QC on cranes and more hand fitting.

'Lito-thank you for sharing, it's unhealthy to keep such stress internalized. Did the last post refer to Sarah Brady, the junior Senator from Noo Yawk or both?

WR Moore
Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 00:36:34 (ZULU)

I'd think the pucker factor would be higher with the .44/griz.

Dunno for sure. The only thing I ever shot that truly scared me was a skunk.

Let's see if I can draw moose tag this year. If so, I'll give him a try with a bow.

CDC'
NPA, aim TINY, see the crosshairs on the target through the fall of the firing pin - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 02:52:57 (ZULU)

Guys,

Any of you have some used single action belts/holster ya don't need, that ya wanna get rid of cheap? I just traded my BLR for a .45 Vaquero. I shoulda checked ammo prices first! $25/50 rounds! No wonder they lube those bullets!

Steve,

Which way are you turning it? (Not that I'VE ever made a dumbass mistake)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 03:19:03 (ZULU)

Click on my name for Video of action in Iraq.

Joe M.: I have owned a Ruger Redhawk w/7 1/2" barrel for about 20 years and have never had a problem with it. I only shoot 4 of 5 boxes a year with it but I have taked some nice deer with it also. I think the best thing for me buying the Ruger when I did was with me having small hands the Ruger fit me better. FWIW

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 03:21:15 (ZULU)

I have come to the conclusion that any firearms laws that are being passed today should be opposed as strongly as if it was a full ban on firearms. Over the years our rights have slowly and methodically been eroded. That is how they gun grabbers operate, a little here, a little there. One of these days we won't have anything left. See England and other European countries to see what they model their attack around.

Did any of you guys ever put models together as a kid. I did for a number of years. I am putting together a model of the Wright Brothers plane for my son as part of a school project. I forgot how much fun it was to sit down, relax, and put one of these things together. The glue smell is nice also. Of course I should have probably bought the non-toxic stuff.

Keith
Northcentral, WV, - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 04:36:49 (ZULU)

CDC:

How about this - Insane extreme hunting - moose with .22 pistol.

You have to jump on to the moose's back, wrap one arm around his neck, and shoot him behind the ear with a .22 pistol using the other hand. Talk about fair chase :-)

I've seen news reports about at least 2 people who have jumped on moose-back with animals that had wandered into town. I think both used low walls or similar so they had some elevation to make the mount easier.

Not recommending any of this, but it sure would be exciting!

{laugh}

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 07:10:33 (ZULU)

"To me, The Constitution is crystal clear on this. To me, common sense is crystal clear on this. How the hell can so many people become so stupid in such a short time?!"

Look at what we allow to pass for education in public schools. Good rant, BTW. It reassures me to see others equally disturbed by the direction of our nation.

Joe M
Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 08:48:26 (ZULU)

"How the hell can so many people become so stupid in such a short time?!"

It required massive committments of public resources by government supported by media and academia. It was sort of like an educational Manhattan Project, but on a much grander scale.

Makes me proud of what my country can accomplish when properly led.

Lincoln left out one line. He should have added, "You can fool enough of the people enough of the time."

rod reiger: Clyde Ormond said that his Indian guide in British Columbia fed his family with a .22. That included moose.

(His family didn't include moose, though mine included a walrus for a while. She moved to Alaska, which seemed a brave move. I was worried for her as Aleuts still have subsistance hunting.)

He (the Indian) used only longs. He said that the long rifles were too destructive. He cheated and used a rifle.

Insomnia for hours. I'm goofier than usual.

CDC'
NPA, aim TINY, see the crosshairs on the target through the fall of the firing pin - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 11:33:55 (ZULU)

GPS -

J&R Sunday sale pricing on older model Garmin eTrex (0100019000) for $95

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=1429978&JRSource=chemail.weekendSale.030407

(or click my name)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 13:00:47 (ZULU)

WR Moore...

>"Did the last post refer to Sarah Brady, the junior Senator from Noo Yawk or both?"<

If the shoe fits ;))))

CDC...

On "Fools"

>"Lincoln left out one line. He should have added, "You can fool enough of the people enough of the time."<...

Then, if all of the people listen to some of the fools, then all of the people will become fools?

And he said, "The attitudes in todays classrooms will be heard in tomorrow's congress." Would he have only known the impact of that prophecy in today's world!!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 16:48:20 (ZULU)

Keith

They also make a kite kit thats based on the Wright Brothers plane.

doug sickels
Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 18:04:36 (ZULU)

Steve Jobs was on to something (he caught hell this last week for a comment, in case you missed it)

teacher's Unions, indeed, workers of any stripe will want more money, and less work---just ask them:)) Recent news shows this in action: Fuzzy spelling is being allowed in some districts (spelin iz ovr raited. 2 menny rulz to lern), functional math--like how to make change---blew trig out of the water years ago. The higher math is built on a foundation that starts in second grade (used to, I should say). If kids can make change for a dollar with pennies, dimes and quarters, but cannot convert a fraction to decimal--they stand little chance in algebra II by high school.

My son's teacher once told me: "Nobody uses that math in the real world" OK, and the conceptual thinking "that math" teaches won't do a burger-flipper much good either. Get that??? That asshat decided what he thought my son needs to know. That sums up the problem.

But it isn't that we, as a nation decided that we prefer morons in the majority--no; the teachers decided that; wrote memorizations (multiplication tables, sight words, etc) is boring as hell, and re-iterating challenging concepts until the last students gets it is as difficult as it is mind numbing day after day, year after year.

These are the fuckwads calling the shots in education--and what exactly is their incentive to work harder for my kids??? The unionized teacher devolves to teaching whatever makes the teacher happy---and the kid is just taking up space to justify the paychecks.

The NEA is a disaster. Unions in general have outlived their usefulness; the bigger the union, the less useful to any local worker, and when the worker sets hours and pay scales---watch the jobs follow the money. Markets do this naturally, unions are unnatural acts of economics.

So, the dumbing of america began with the unionization of workers. At first, it was a force of good. Now....well,

We can soon take turns asking each other if we want fries with that shake:))

Edit: Added a link I just found on this subject. Click the name

Joe M
Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 23:19:59 (ZULU)

EDITED TO FIT YOUR SCREEN

AUSTIN - Apple Inc. CEO Steve Jobs lambasted teacher unions Friday, claiming no amount of technology in the classroom would improve public schools until principals could fire bad teachers.

Jobs compared schools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs.

"What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good?" he asked to loud applause during an education reform conference.

"Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, 'I can't win.'"

"I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way," Jobs said.

"This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."

"Apple just lost some business in this state, I'm sure," Jobs said.

END

______________________________________

Personally, I think the problems is more complex than this - it is not enough to say what is wrong. You also have to fund and implement a solution. That takes money, public support, a plan based on good information, and the administrative and leadership abilities to pull it all off in a democratic society. (Of course, Jobs is assuming that because he could implement such a sea-change in the private sector, it could also be done in the public sector with the same ease. That is not a valid assumption - Jobs is a little naive. Public schools in a democratic society, which has no consensus on their purpose, are not the same as a private sector corporation in which he is the largest stockholder, in an industry that he personally invented. Slight difference here, folks.) But the fact is, the lack of accountability, measurable standards, and meaningful performance review in public education doesn't help, either. I know of private and parochial schools that do better jobs with less money for salaries.

______________________________________

End of non-rifle stuff. Sorry. I don't want this to turn into the same 5 day thing as the kung foo stuff (about which I know nothing and kept my mouth shut.) If anyone wants to call me an idiot, get in line, take a number, send private e-mail, and I will respectfully debate off the DR. ;-)

P. Hayden
USA - Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 23:54:21 (ZULU)

I need some help on finding some info on a 1903 A3

On the top of the action it says US remington Model 03 A3 and the ID number 3874404.On the front of the barrel its got a 4-43 mark on it.Then stamped in the stock its got a RA FJA.Any help would be great.

Thanks JK

Jon Kujawa
Monday, March 5, 2007, at 00:15:36 (ZULU)

I think the slide started when "teachers" became "educators". I've got a couple of stories of my own about condescending comments made to me by administrators when I had kids in public schools. I wasn't kind in responding to the last one who did. Or, come to think of it, any of the previous ones.

I think I was still doing some security work for the Pittsburgh Public Schools when the NFT started out. The first president, Al Fondy, was a teacher in the Pittsburgh school system. At that time, they had some legitimate issues-to include their own safety. As with any entity, the unions first priority is their own survival.

Funny thing, the initial response to violence in the schools became viewed as "too authoritative and intimidating"-after everything was peaceful:))

WR Moore
Monday, March 5, 2007, at 00:45:38 (ZULU)

Jon,

You wrote: "On the top of the action it says US remington Model 03 A3 and the ID number 3874404.On the front of the barrel its got a 4-43 mark on it.Then stamped in the stock its got a RA FJA.Any help would be great."

The rifle was made by Remington and its serial number is 3874404. I would assume the barrel inspection date was 4-43 (April 1943).

According to "The Springfield 1903 Rifles" by Lt. Col. William S. Brophy, USAR, Ret., the stock cartouche RA is used on newly manufactured Remington Arms Co. rifles and FJA is the acceptance stamp, initials, of the inspector Lt. Col. Frank J. Atwood. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cool Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 02:35:19 (ZULU)

Guys,

Even when I was IN school, I tried telling the teachers they sucked. Never did any good. They need to cut out all the useless horseshit, and start teaching something useful.

In MY opinion:

1.) Cut art and music.

It's fucking stupid. I've NEVER gotten any job by making a collage. As someone said, "The problem is that Johnny can't read, not that Johnny can't make a macoroni picture!"

2.) Replace art and music with vocational training.

Our unemployment would drop DRASTICALLY if only ONE graduating class was made up of certified welders, equipment operators, pipefitters, etc.. These are all jobs that are in demand, pay damned well, and could be learned in a high school environment. You think good old liberal mom and Dad will put up with Johnny being a prick to his teachers if he's risking a $15/hour job the day after graduation? Hell, they'd probably come down and whip him theirself!

3.) Eliminate tenure.

I realise it's the governemnt's way to reward the unskilled, who have niether the talent, initiative, or desire to rise above their current position by putting them in charge.

Too many teachers use their position to finally get to be "in" with the cool kids, and to push their politics off on the unsuspecting. I routinely got in trouble for calling those types on their bullshit.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 03:24:38 (ZULU)

Joe,

The best part of that video, IMHO, was when the guy ran into the ropes trying to get away! Hilarious.

Travis Morgan
Monday, March 5, 2007, at 03:32:39 (ZULU)

Eliminate art and music? Music is an art, of course, as are literature and theatre. Who needs that stuff? CMT comes with the cable package. That orchestra racket sounds like a cat fight and they could set fire to them fancy-pants art museums and nobody would miss 'em.

Higher math don't make me no never mind and what's the sense of fritterin' time away squintin' over some old history book?

Book larnin' ain't never scalded no hogs.

(edited)

CDC'
NPA, aim TINY, see the crosshairs on the target through the fall of the firing pin - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 03:49:10 (ZULU)

CDC,

Heh,heh,heh!

ALAN
Monday, March 5, 2007, at 04:16:32 (ZULU)

Doc

thanks for the info that will be a great help.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, March 5, 2007, at 14:31:39 (ZULU)

Travis Dude...

You hit a sore spot with me (and I think a few others).

>"You think good old liberal mom and Dad will put up with Johnny being a prick to his teachers if he's risking a $15/hour job the day after graduation? Hell, they'd probably come down and whip him theirself!"<

Around here, McDonald's pays close to $15 an hour, and that's without a diploma of ANY kind... even an elementary scruel deeploma... even without speekin engrish.

I don't know where you live, but good plumbers and welders make $60-$80 an hour around here... and they need an education. The vocational world isn't interested in hi-scruel dropouts.

My bitch (since I have a kidlet in school now) is that they are NOT getting music, art, higher math, and sciences. The classes my son is getting are "fill" for the time - he has been going to one of the "Best" publik scruels in the country - and for science, they watch TV - reruns of "Bill Nye the science guy".

He knows NOTHING about the Civil war (aka The War of Northern Agression ;), noting about WW1, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam, who Hitler is, the "Dust bowl" of the 30's, in fact, he knows nothing about anything that happened prior to 1995.

Nothing about the sexual revolution, nothing about the womens movement, or slavery, or the Quakers and Mormons, nothing about the 1800's migration to the west...

... I could go on for 20 pages of what my son didn't learn in publik scruel. What he knows, he learned from me.

Edjumacation is not about making money, it's about mastering the quality of your life... it's about listening to a politician and being able to know whether it's BS or not.

How many people understand and can make a proof that "We are causing Global warming", is BS?

About 1 in 100, because we have a young population that never studied earth sciences (I mean, "How you gonna make money with THAT, right?)... well after this weekend, my son can take Al Gore in one round on the subject - can you??

I'm for tougher education at EVERY level. Our kids should be breaking out in a sweat in school, and I don't mean in gym!!

In music and art, you need to know the lives of Mozart and Gauguin, and why they lived the lives that they did... if we are going to make welders, they should be NASA grade welders... and every high school student in the country should be laughing at Algore's movie - what breaks my heart is that they are NOT laughing - they don't understand what is wrong with the bogus "theory"... cuz they aren't getting edjumacated.

In education, we are at the very bottom of the industrial nations, and it's getting worse - if you think a plumber or air conditioning repair guy will solve the problems of this country, you are SADLY mistaken.

If your students aren't educated, they become the fodder for politicians. Why do you think the black community is in such badd shape, and such an easy mark for the democrats - it's because the poor bastards can't understand what's being sold to them for their votes. They can read a menu at McDonald's, but they can't understand what they read in a newspaper.

Aw shit... I'm wasting my time!

I think I'll go make some fries!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 14:41:54 (ZULU)

'lito,

"I think I'll go make some fries."

Wanna SuperSize that? ;)

ALAN
Monday, March 5, 2007, at 15:25:29 (ZULU)

Alan, Lito: Ha! Funny stuff:))

What Lito said is the sad reality. The arrogance of global warming (man is the driving force of global climate?)--it is just the tip of an iceberg of ignorance. Classical education may seem irrelevant at a glance. Take philosophy---who needs that mumbo-jumbo, eh? Yet, that is where "critical thought" resides; that would be the ability to methodically dissect an issue (any issue or theory) and weigh the pros an cons--to arrive at a reasoned position. It's called logic, and it isn't as widespread a trait as you'd hope! Instead, we emote our way to and fro thru life.

Outsourced your union job to oblivion? Your next job is in the service sector for half-pay? There is a reason for that...

Don't know that the US is NOT a democracy? Don't like that arcane electoral college thingy (if you even know it exists in the first place)? There's a reason for that...

Didn't get the promotion to a job with more responsibility? "Zero tolerance" policies did injustices to YOUR child? There's reasons for all this.

Uneducated masses. There's the reason. From the "feels like the right thing to do" mentality comes a desire to want authority without responsibility. We eschew responsibility wherever it rears its ugly head. School districts want bully authority over your kid---but do not want to decide one infraction on its merits over another---zero tolerance absolves judgement. Ta-da! Part of this is also driven by the legal system. Lawsuits make anyone gunshy after a while---but then, this too has its root causes: Juries of your peers. You got a mass of uneducated "feel' gooders" deciding cases. "Hey, I can't wait til it's my turn to get a crack at that guy's fat wallet too" So, juries award more often than not--and no small part of it is "me too." There's a reason for all these issues---and a single reason for many, many more things we've bitched about here:

education in this country.

No, the problem isn't "just teachers unions"---that is only a facilitator. It is cirriculum. We've dumbed down all levels of parochial school, and included our universities into the mix of late. Teacher's aren't complaining, cause they get more money over this span of time, while seeing their workloads decrease. That's a win---by the "feels good" standard. Parents, as political block, share the blame. Too many are too busy to notice that their offspring is shortchanged, or the parent was victimized themselves and can't notice--or some combination of both. Parental preoccupation can be many things---but is likely to be the need to work their asses off to pay the government 5/12ths of their income, etc. heheh: These same 5-month slaves will then think the solution to their problems is.... MORE government! Talk about dumb...but that is the no-shit direction of our country. Too much government put mom to work, which made kids lean more heavily on school for things schools never meant to be held accountable for, which led to "tooth care" knocking math out the window....and more money to that government is needed to shift educators to day care providers...causing a second job for mom. And this same idiot wants even more government to solve the problems caused by too much government already???? yeah, that is brilliance.

All this is flowing from one basic problem: Education. If you have a foundation in the classics---you know enough to see where your lot in life falls. You would then be pissed. The only way to fix things is to bring on the "mother of invention"---you know, necessity. Ignorant folks don't know liberty from enslavement--so, to fix what ails us--we need to teach our young.

Lito does what I do. I teach my kids the important things that school does not. Hopefully, enough of us will do this to keep our country afloat a few generations longer.

Joe M
Monday, March 5, 2007, at 16:38:46 (ZULU)

Joe M...

A few weeks ago, my Rugrat was reading "Fahrenheit 451" in scruel, and I asked him what he thought about it.

He didn't have much to say, so I asked him what it was about... so he told me the story line.

I asked him if that was an interesting story, and he said "Eh, I guess it's OK"

So I said, "This book was written many years ago, and if the story is "Eh", why do you think people are still reading it?

He had no idea.

So I went through Hitler burning books in prewar Germany, the "Cultural cleansing" of China, Iran, Iraq... and who's books were burned.

We rolled through tons of history.

After five-ish hours of talking, I asked him again, "Now, what do you think the book is about?"

And he said, "Daddy, it's not about burning books and the fire department. It's about governments burning men's ideas, cuz they are scared of them."

I was choked up, I was so proud.

Ask 100 adults what book is about, and you won't get the answer.

Speakin of... I'm listening to the radio, and they are playing Barack Obama's speech to blacks in Selma AL.

And there he is... a black raised by a rich white woman, went to Ha'vaaad law scruel, is very articulate... and he's talking to those Selma "darkies" in the speech patterns of a southern preacher "I has com' hom' ta Selma fo' the fust time, bu' it ain't fo' the las' time".

Echoes of Al "da' preecher" Gore??

If I was a southern black, I'd run Big Al, and Barack Obama out of town on a rail (with a little tar and feathers).

Can't they know they are being insulted - oh yeah, I forgot - they have no edjumacation, and haven't got the slightest idea that they are being "hustled" by carpet baggers (white AND BLACK) just like they always have been for 200 years!

But who needs edjumacation???

Gotta go... the fries are 'bout done.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 18:04:40 (ZULU)

CDC and 'Lito,

As usual, you've both flown off the handle, completely missing the point.

I never said to ignore math, history, or the sciences. If anything, we need to increase our literacy, so the students are better able to comprehend what they're reading, which, in turn, will allow more understanding of history and the sciences.

I'm merely suggesting we cut out all the busy work bullshit such as art and music in high school, and replace it with vocational training.

My 11 year old is getting about 2 hours of homework a night, and it's pretty much busy work. Cutting up newspapers to spell words? Yeah, that should really cut into our family time. His teacher's really been phoning it in since christmas, and his principal's on the verge of being lynched (figuratively) by most of the parents at his school.

I very STRONGLY feel that the schools need to get off their asses and TEACH. I just feel that more vocational training will give the students a leg up, as well as boosting the economy.

"lito said:

"Around here, McDonald's pays close to $15 an hour, and that's without a diploma of ANY kind... even an elementary scruel deeploma... even without speekin engrish."

Goody for you, 'Lito, you've discovered that jobs pay different in different areas! YAY! Your point is?

I don't know where you live, but good plumbers and welders make $60-$80 an hour around here... and they need an education. The vocational world isn't interested in hi-scruel dropouts."

I've never ran equipment or welded for anyone that gave a shit about GPA's or diplomas. If you can do the job, it's yours. If you're a certified welder, you still generally do a pre-employment welding test. If you want your kid telling people about art while bagging burgers, go ahead. Just stay out of the way of those of us that want our kids to succeed!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 19:23:56 (ZULU)

Travis,

Neither 'lito or CDC need me to defend their points of view, but I read yout initial post on this subject then your rebuttal, and I'd like to add my .02 to this debate.

I don't think that 'lito or CDC "flew off the handle" when they commented on your post. When I read it I took it literally, just as I suspect they did. And your rebuttal post didn't do a thing to change what you said in your first as I see it.

I think the point must be made that a complete well rounded education is what benefits both the student and society in general. Back in the stone age, when I was in high school, there were three courses of study made available to students from the sophomore through the senior grades. The General Course was aimed at those students who did not yet know what they wanted to do (career wise) in the future as was geared toward graduating these kids with a basic education in the "three R's" with music, sports, or art classes as electives. The Vocational Course was just what its label said it was, with emphasis on what was then called Industrial Arts (generally for the boys) and Business/Secretarial for the girls. Again, sports, arts, and music were elective courses. Finally, there was the Academic Studies Course, which was aimed at those students whose career choices pointed them towards a College education after high school graduation. These students also were offered electives in art, music, and/or sports.

I really don't believe that a bit of the arts hurt any student in his/her pursuit of a career, and it was quite refreshing to be able to discuss art with a girl who was in the Secretarial Course as well as to talk about music with a guy who just came out of the machine shop. I can't say that any part of a good all-around education can be considered a waste of time and resources. Train kids only to be welders, machinists, pipefitters, etc. without good exposure to the other facets of civilization and you wind up with the kind of worker drones that Josef Stalin cultivated.

ALAN
Monday, March 5, 2007, at 20:36:17 (ZULU)

>"As usual, you've both flown off the handle, completely missing the point."<

Yup...

That's me. Missed the point again. Maybe someday I'll get it right. I'll work on it real hard!

Hey CDC... wanna take some remedial reading courses with me. We'll do it mail order from Travis' "Reading "R" us" mail order courses, and we'll get the "Getting the point" course too.

The only thing wrong with what's offered in schools is that they don't teach what they're offering.

They are in science, but don't learn it... they are in music, and don't learn it, they are in social studies, and don't learn it.

The fries were over done :((

Guess I can't get one of them $15 an hour jobs :(((

Dang, I guess I'll just sneek over to Mexico, then come back as an illegal alien and apply for benefits :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 21:10:06 (ZULU)

Cut music and art?

Travis, if ignorance is bliss, then youse gots to be laughin..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 21:21:28 (ZULU)

Travis-- You're the only one flying off the handle. I damn sure want my kids to learn about art and music more than a vocation. Vocational training is fine, but that's all you can do. It doesn't allow you to be anything more.

It would fix our unemployment? Again, your lack of education reveals your ignorance. What is the current unemployment in this country? It's about 5% give or take. That is pretty nearly zero and many economists argue that there is no way to get it lower. We have an employment problem in this country that goes the other direction. Why do you think GW and his business chronies are so anxious for cheap labor from South and Central America? We really do need the labor.

When it comes to global warming and other junk science concepts, without a grounding in scientific methodology how do you find the wholes in the theory? Mathematics drives science and the higher end applications of science, engineering for instance.

What kind of dull dreary existance would we have with no grasp of our history and no art to lift us above ourselves? Maybe some assignments in school are busy-work. Teaching me to make art projects in elementary school and junior high was a waste, for instance. But, for me, music was something different. I was in a music program of one sort or another all the way through college, where I majored in hard science.

Your statements were ignorant and you didn't like being called on it. Man up and get over it. Do you think maybe you pissed some people off?

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 21:47:18 (ZULU)

'Lito,

I remember when High School was about chicks.

Chorus or Choir, well there were sure to be chicks there..Band, well ya'll heard what they do with their flutes at band camp...Me, mastered the woodwinds..Anything to do with art, chicks everywhere..Couldn't draw worth a shit, but knew my Picasso's from the Gogan's..Home ec, damn think of all the honeys... if they'd have offered that course when I was in school, would have been cookin like julia child rather than waste my time in Welding class...Hell I'd been welding since 12 yr old, why would I take a course that didn't challenge me..Remember how envious I was my sophomore year when I heard the 'sociology' class was makin babies, and here I was taking CalcI, but cooled off when I heard the girls were making babies out of flour sacks...I took all the 'chick' oriented electives whenever possible, all the business courses like typing, accounting, and shorthand, Humanities like band(classical, jazz, and march), chorus(only got one year cuz can't hold a tune unless it's Bo Diddley), and art appreciation, et cetera, et cetera..Main thing was I did pay some attention in class, and none of the courses deemed trivial by Trav did me any harm, in fact made me the betterer IMHO..

Just wished could have joined the girls PE..At least the cross country/indoor/outdoor track season was co-ed..

Hell, the first 10 years of school was about figuring out the ladies, you have the rest of your life to find your vocation....J/K, worked my ass off at school, and gained my 'vocational experience' after school in dad's shop and on farms. I was not pushed, but led to believe all the above courses were worth something by both parents, for a more rounded education, that when I made whatever choice of career as an adult, it wouldn't be the only choice..

The more you know, the more choices are available..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, March 5, 2007, at 23:06:21 (ZULU)

Click my name for "The New Yorker" cartoon, "Life without Mozart".

Students who don't know that they don't know s*** irritate me.

"Why do I need to know this?"

"I'll never need this."

"This is stupid."

Cripes, kid,...go away. This stuff is important, it is elementary and the smart people in the room are trying to learn it.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 01:18:20 (ZULU)

You guys might have come down a little hard on Travis...you used to give everyone at least a foot of rope to hang themselves...now it's more like three inches. Spring is coming...cheer up you old farts.

Travis... my wife is a top tier graphic artist. She made $50K last year, working three nights a week, maybe twelve hours a week (after our little one goes to bed). Her primary client is the advertising unit for a division of J&J... she could do the job from anywhere with a network connection.

Lito - I couldn't agree more with your comment about making things "hard" in school. A constructive but difficult education makes a viable, relevant element of society.... the opposite approach produces disinterested whiners.

medicjim
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 02:42:27 (ZULU)

I am CDC's 13 year-old daughter. I am in the 7th grade and I disagree with Travis. His opinion that art and music should be cut from schools is completely ridiculous. It is true no one ever got a job making macaroni sculptures but only first graders make macaroni sculptures. In my 7th grade class we are learning to draw scale model buildings, understand perspective, and we are learning to draw floor plans. Many people have made good money out of those trades. Music is a very important part of the world's history. It shows how we have progressed. Several of the smartest men ever were musicians. Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven were geniuses. I prefer Vivaldi but tastes differ.

CDC's Daughter
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 03:37:27 (ZULU)

CDC's Daughter - "I prefer Vivaldi but tastes differ."

ROTFLMAO!! Personally, I couldn't differentiate Vivaldi from Bach, but I'm sure willing to let a 13-year old teach me. If you would be so kind as to recommend something from Vivaldi, I will take a listen.

I spent ALL of my energy climbing out of the sewer of a school system I grew up in. I'll never stop learning, because I'm incomplete. My latest jag is trying to understand gyroscopes. One of the physicists I work with recommended an introductory book on mechanics, that assumes a strong familiarity with Tensor analysis. Should be interesting.

CDC' - that New Yorker cartoon looked like modern art - junk.

Escher was amazing, Monet was stunning, Dali was brilliant, Rembrandt was out of this world, Picasso sucks, Warhol was an idiot, and "modern art" is recycled sewage.

..and my HK-USP can beat up your Glock any old day!! :8-o

Duman
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 04:20:16 (ZULU)

Thank God you didn't say anything about 1911s Travis! Your bones would bleach in the sun.

Brogers
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 04:28:41 (ZULU)

Without doubt...

... This the MOST eclectic bunch of shooting bumz on the internet.

I LOVE THIS BAR!!!

Hey 'yotie...

Cool atcha!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 04:32:50 (ZULU)

Didn't we have Art and Music back there before public schools? Like back during the realm of the Neflim. Where is this thread going anyway? Somebody pull the pin. There you go Travis. Make a thousand lovely tents and get caught with a goat just one time and your no longer Travis the tent maker... your love for goats has done in your career. How could it happen on SC forum? AGAIN.

Brogers
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 04:39:15 (ZULU)

'lito: "I LOVE THIS BAR!!!"

Yeah, me too. Don't post much, but I enjoy reading. It's gotten to be a daily ritual.

Thanks to all youse Hawgs. Yeah, Travis, even you.

However, I'm damned glad Ed Hogan ain't around anymore (as well as "he whose name must not be mentioned"). Yes, I know that's not a Christian attitude, but... :-)))

Cheers!

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 05:17:54 (ZULU)

Here`s a relavent example of what I think Mr. `Lito san is talking about. Last night my daughter finished her homework on the metric systm (4th grade). She showed me her paper which now had the correct answer to a conversion problem she formerly had wrong (we never tell her which one is wrong, she has to find it. Love that part.) I asked her how she got the right answer (multiple guess)and where`s her work? and she got the scared bunny look.

Her: "I don`t know"

Me: "How can you not know? You just did it. Did you divide it or just guess?"

Her: "I don`t know"

Wife: "Don`t forget what time it is (to me)"

Time was around ten pm and daughter is tired.

Me: (now to wife) "I know what time it is. I can tell time since the first grade. I asked a simple question."

Wife: "I`m just saying you know how she gets when she`s tired"

Me: "So...I can`t ask a simple question?!"

Wife: "no, I not saying..."

Me: (now severly pissed)" No,I think you are! That`s rediculous! If she doesn`t understand what she is answering, it needs to be addressed!"

Daughter now in living room bawling and wife silent at table. OK, my work is done here. Again. I am such a prick, eh? Mr. big expectations ruins another evening.

The point is, I can absolutely guarantee you I could find papers from last year my daughter did on the metric system. And they will have all "A"s. This is supposed to be review. And she is 100% clueless, with tests coming up on this later this week! And my wife wants to give her a pass! Bullshit!!! She is getting all A`s and not learning the material. Without understanding the concept of the material, all the A`s in the world won`t matter a tinker`s damn. They are not teaching it!!!! Memorizing is not teaching!!! Hell, she didn`t even really memorize it or she would have recalled at least a little. I`m talking 100% clueless. I tried everything I could think of to get the basic idea of measuring across and nothing registered. And she gets all A`s. Hmmmm.

"Wanna super-size that?"

Steve Racer
Somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 06:33:47 (ZULU)

Alan,

I'm not saying the arts should be unavailable, nor am I saying that the only training should be for roughnecks. I'd also like to see kids learn how to set up and operate a business. Not just a snack bar in a cafeteria. Teach them about payrolls, insurance, office skills, etc.. I'm sure most of us here that own or have owned a business were basically dragged kicking and screaming into record keeping and office work. Hell, I'm still learning. Took a big hit on my taxes because I didn't work out of town enough to write off several thousand dollars' worth of travel and motel expenses. This kinda stuff coulda been learned in school, rather than the mandatory french and spanish courses. (-or art or music!)

JR,

The kids over here really don't care about the arts and music classes all that much, the administration doesn't care, and, worst of all, the teachers don't care.

Steve,

What jobs are you seeing that are so in demand that we should be worried that kids aren't learning more about the arts?

The point you're ignoring is that while we have plenty of laborers, we're seriously lacking in SKILLED laborers.

As for pissing people off; well, it happens. Just because a vocal minority disagrees with me, I'm not necessarily wrong. Go play with your horn. Or tambourine. Whatever.

On the deal with your kid not getting the concept. They don't teach concept anymore. They teach them to regurgitate answers for test scores.

And FINALLY.........

You can have all the art classes you want, but uninspired kids with uninspired teachers don't learn HOW Da Vinci's arts and sciences mixed. kids in school today MIGHT be able to tell you which composer wrote which piece of music, but their lazy-ass teachers don't care to teach kids WHY the music was ground breaking. The don't teach the history of the music. How some composers and artists (and authors) had to do their work in secret, to keep from being "silenced" or exiled for upsetting the governemnt or the church. They don't teach about WHY it was important, or how that music changed the world. Nope, in today's arts and music courses, you never learn about how a person can be a patriot through their use of the arts. But you can sure as hell sleep through it and not miss much.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks. , U.S.A. - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 07:14:26 (ZULU)

Click for M-14 parts lot on E-bay There was also a lot of Winchester stocks, including a blank and a graphite one.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 08:07:03 (ZULU)

I believe I've told this story, but given the current topic, I think it could be rerun. About 10 years back, I needed to do some simple surveying to lay out a fence line. Snagged one of the kids high school trig/geometry books and went looking for the right formula. Couldn't find opposite, adjacent or hypotenuse anywhere in the trig section. Trig was now about measuring radial parts of circles!!!!!!!!!!!!

After finding what I needed in a machinists handbook, I drafted one of the girls boyfriends as a chainman. And had to explain why, how etc. The comment from an honors student: "You mean there's a use for trig?"

Then there was having to explain to the kids what Senators, Representative and Delegates do.................. I checked, it wasn't in the books.

Somewhere along the line, there's been a major disconnect between "educaton" and the real world. That needs to stop. Yeah, the schools aren't supposed to raise our kids, but DAMN!!!!!!!!!! I remember being in school when Russia launched Sputnik. We spent the next week taking standardized tests so the school district could find out what they had to do to make sure those @#$% commies didn't do that again!

WR Moore
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 08:53:02 (ZULU)

Hi Lito don't be jealous but..; I keep winning these sermi free trips to luxury hotels where they bring your drugs and skimpy no salt no sugar restricted fluid rations right to your bed. No unusual activity other than I just enlisted a new Dr. or two to see if sthey could do me any good. After the heart cath and after the new team found out the other electro physioligist, (I don't know if I can spell that without a spell checker) had the ICD machine set wrong I been doing much better. They were able to get me back on the drugs I needed and there's a future plan to fix this ticker malfuction and get me out of Atrial Fib all the time. He says I'll be back after the commercial after all.

guys; I knew you would show your true colors eventually. I got found out the other day when a google search revealed to this guy that I am a democrat because of the ugly things I said about a Ruger 77 some where in the past. And now I tune up on the channel and you guys are defending the arts. Leftists that's what you are....and to think I spent all this time here trying to make commies out of you with them SKSs and you were Red all along.

Now I'm just kiddin dammit I know you don't shoot commie weapons! Hate mail will receive a smart alex answer and a quarter.

Brogers
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 10:28:57 (ZULU)

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40507

Interesting discussion on meplat trimming on another forum. Just thought I would throw out some shooting stuff. I have nightmares about liberal arts, but they do have some value. Met some fine looking womenz whilest having to take those courses. Arts student girlies were kinda freaky but fun :)

Too damn early to be up.....Bolt out!

Bolt
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 10:36:50 (ZULU)

ILLINIOS ALERT

Illinios guys HB16 Semi Auto Ban is on the floor. Call your Rep to oppose it. Go to www.isra.org It's going to be a long 6 yrs. with Daley and his puppet Balogo.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 12:54:53 (ZULU)

Duman: Get a copy of "Four Seasons"---you will recognize riffs from TV comercials and an elevator ride. That piece started my charlie-the-tuna slide into classical music:))

Travis: You want to set up and run a business--that is what college is for. The mandatory government-run enslavement camps, errr, public school systems should provide the basic foundation from which any discipline can be pursued. Thanks for the link on the M14 stuff:))

That "three-tier" choice was similar to my Jr/ Sr High set up in suburban MD. I ended up in some AP classes in 11th grade, which had the happy effect of placing me in the one single PE class that was "Co-ed." My best friend and I were the only males in this class:))

We have some old friends as houseguests staying out here. Arrived two nights ago. I am now getting a crash course on undoing identity theft---some asshat cleaned out their account while on the road. So far this morning, it seems that the thieves have an upper hand in this game;(( Whatta cluster...

Joe M
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 13:48:47 (ZULU)

'yotie...

Don't gimme that crap about tickers. I'm on to your tricks. You get checked into that hotel so when the nurses bend over to fluff your pillows, you can get to peek at their hooties ;))

Take care and be well, you ol' cootie!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 13:55:30 (ZULU)

Mr. Duman: I strongly recommend Adagio: Presto. The music is a fabulous contrast of sweet and loud voices. In the music Vivladi has a contrast of loud and quiet, instead of just playing up one so it becomes boring or muddled. The contrast sounds quite beautiful. It makes me realize the genius of the man behind the music.

The second I recommend is Presto: Impetuous summer storm. The power in the song makes it seem as if the storm is right outside your window. Vivaldi's music is a work of genius. The way he contrasts and the power he has in his music is quite remarkable.

(As you can tell, that was unedited. Dan)

CDC's Daughter
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 14:45:06 (ZULU)

Ms. CDC's Daughter,

Thank you for the recommendations, that was very nice of you. I will follow your recommendations, and give you my impressions.

Regards,

Duman

Duman
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 15:59:01 (ZULU)

Lito; but how are they gonna know if I keep my sunglasses on?

Brogers
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 18:15:21 (ZULU)

Duman:

Gyroscopes are things that spin really, really fast, and don't want to change direction once they're set. Example: Tell your wife/girlfriend/friend with privileges that she's got something that looks like cottage cheese on her thighs. Let her get up to speed and then try to change the direction of the conversation. Change will always be 90 degrees to what you're trying to do.

Did Vivaldi write 700 operas? Or just the same one, 700 times? It's hard to tell.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 19:48:42 (ZULU)

What's the difference between a day nurse and a night nurse.........................................300lbs!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 19:49:13 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt & Sarge..... LMAO!!!

Duman
Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 20:06:35 (ZULU)

Travis:

"What jobs are you seeing that are so in demand that we should be worried that kids aren't learning more about the arts?"

It's about quality of life as much as getting a job. It is part of being a well rounded human. Not to mention that plenty of people make there living through art and music, even without any talent.

"The point you're ignoring is that while we have plenty of laborers, we're seriously lacking in SKILLED laborers."

You're right, I wasn't addressing skilled labor, really. But which came first, the lack of need-- ie, jobs moving out of the US-- or lack of skilled workers? I don't know. I am concerned about the lack of skilled labor here. However, I think that companies moving out of the country are the main cause. I remember in HS industrial arts some of the real artists I saw in print shop, wood shop and metal shop. My stuff was functional...well mostly. Art influences some of this stuff as well. I might have made it work, but they made it work beautifully.

"As for pissing people off; well, it happens. Just because a vocal minority disagrees with me, I'm not necessarily wrong."

Piss off who you want, it's part of the give and take on this board. But since I'm in the "vocal minority", ya you are wrong :) But I shouldn't have told you to man up.

"Go play with your horn. Or tambourine. Whatever."

Dude, it's a violin.

"On the deal with your kid not getting the concept. They don't teach concept anymore. They teach them to regurgitate answers for test scores. "

Wrong Steve. But, if this was your original point, as you seem to argue in your following paragraph, then I missed it in your original post. This may be the case, I don't have kids in school yet. My oldest is three. Just don't trash things of value to me out of hand because you don't see the value. These things are part and parcel of Western Civilization and if we lose them, we lose our cultural heritage and we lose our domination of the world at large.

Also, much of the motivation for kids comes from the home. My Dad kicked my but to get me to study hard and to do well in school. I'm greatful for that. Don't you think that your influence on your kids can overcome some of the socialism induced lethargy in the schools?

---------------------

CDC's Daughter: Stop reading here.

Dan/CDC': I can only hope that my daughter is as articulate and thoughtful when she is thirteen. I know you're probably already proud, you have every right to be.

---------------------

'Yote Bait:

I admit to tinkering with some of that commie 7.62x39 stuff. I even had to read Marx in college. Damn, I may be a red diaper doper baby!

I better go shoot at the NRA range and read the Federalist Paapers cover to cover while listening to Michael Savage in order to draw me back from the brink ;). Next thing you know I'll vote for HilarObama.

Steve

Steve Burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 22:12:02 (ZULU)

Speaking of education - if you want one, it's available. Free.

The course materials for 1550 MIT courses, including video lectures, a third of which are engineering courses, are available online at no charge. All you have to do is to do the work. You won't get a degree, but if what you want is the knowledge, you won't care. Personally, I've got enough degrees, but not nearly enough knowledge.

The project, Open Course Work, is sponsored by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. What a magnificent use of money!

Click on my name for the link. Any home schoolers out there?

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 23:28:43 (ZULU)

CDC's Daughter,

It is so refreshing to see kids who listen to music other than the cRAP that is so prevalent lately. Vivaldi is good, particularily his "Four Seasons" but my favorite is still Pachabel's Canon In D Major. For some reason I can listen to that piece over and over.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 23:51:46 (ZULU)

Rob Opp...

>"Pachabel's Canon In D Major"<

Mine too - I used to be able to play it on the flute, until I smushed my left hand under a milling machine. Been waiting for a few years for my fingers to fully heal, and they say maybe next year - Mary wouldn't let me sell the flutes, especially the bass flute - it's so long that it folds back over itself like a Shepard's Crook ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 7, 2007, at 00:06:02 (ZULU)

Travis: "But you can sure as hell sleep through it and not miss much."

You should have stayed awake then done some supplimental reading. You missed more than you think.

Lindy: Cool! We'll check MIT out.

(Later) The MIT site is a fantastic resource. Just amazing.

CDC'
NPA, aim TINY, maintain sight picture through fall of firing pin - Wednesday, March 7, 2007, at 01:26:13 (ZULU)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 7, 2007, at 02:02:46 (ZULU)

Rod,

about the only thing I havent mastered on the list was the first and the last...conn a ship kind of skedgy, I can drive a pontoon boat so that will have to do..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Wednesday, March 7, 2007, at 21:50:32 (ZULU)

JR:

You're more accomplished than I.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 00:54:19 (ZULU)

Range Report... or somethin like that...

So, I went to the range on Sunday Morning all happy n S***!

I needed to sight in because I remounted my scope so the plan was to hit the 50, check zero, move to 100 confirm zero and shoot a few groups then move to the 300.

Talked to the folks there about getting on the 400 and 600 and they said just bring back the 300 yard target with a 2 Moa group in the center of your 300yd target with no other holes anywhere on it and we'll give you a laminated card that say's your good to go on the 400/600 ranges every time you come back.

Well the damn wind was kicking up and I didnt realize how bad it was getting, but after I fired about 10 rounds at the 50 (was only off about an inch windage wise) I stroked the bore a few times with some shooters choice and when the brush would protrude out the end thw wind would blow a puff right in my face. Damn. burning eyes and skin.

But- not to be detered I moved on to the 100yd line. Well the wind was really starting to kick it. anywayz When they called cease fire and cleared the line we finally went down to put up our targets. you couldnt hardly hold your target yourself and staple it to the boards.

So finally when they called the line hot I got into position and loaded a round flipped the covers and sighted in on my target and DAMN the target had been ripped clean in half by the wind. I sad F*** this and packed up my S*** and headed for the house.

Monday morning- NO friggin wind at all.. zero. Met up with the wifey for lunch and she's all laughing at me. "Look at those flags over there just hanging there not moving a bit!" she says. sheez

Oh well hit it again this weekend. Man i guess I need to get me a kestrel so I'll have accurate data to record.

Latrz,

Jerry

JerryC
Cypress, Tx, USA - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 02:12:13 (ZULU)

Gents,

CDC, you sir, have one heck of a daughter! If she's as good looking as she is astute you're going to have your hands full. I'd say buy a shotgun to keep the boys away, but suspect you already have several...;-)

Steve Racer: That whole father/daughter disconnect thing...I know it well. Never had children of my own, but got Gennie when I married her mom. She was 16 and on hormonal overdrive. A darn good kid. I was a Major, at the time, so she called me "Major Dad". One night she'd done something (can't remember what) and I asked her when "she was going to get her head and ass wired together". She in room crying and wife giving me THE LOOK. First lesson that 16 year old girls are not Marines! Live and learn.

Heard about the new Democratic "dream ticket" for the next election. Hillary as Pres and Nancy Pelosi as VP. I think the hair on the back of my neck actually stood up!

Survived my 56 Birthday on the 5th. Wife gave me a hard bound edition of John Ross' "Unintended Consequences". I read it years ago and re-reading it is more disturbing now than than. Guess that's because I see more of the novel becoming true every day. If you haven't read it I recommend it. You'll never view big government and bureaucracy the same.

A Good Day: A trip to Corvallis to visit the matriarch of the clan and custom gunsmith Steve Nelson. Arriving at Steve's I found gunwriter Rick Jamison and retired gunsmith Bob West were visiting, too. As I've mentioned Steve is secretary of the Guild and Bob has been a member for years. Bob's now 93 and can no longer work in the shop, but is sharp as a tack. We talked about walnut gunstocks, wood selection, metal work, actions, barrels, and things germane. Think I learned more sitting next to Bob than I could have ever imagined. If you recognize the name it's because the worked for and with P.O. Ackley for a number of years. The talk turned to gunsmiths and he knew most all the good ones. Most dead and gone. He's the last of what I would consider the old masters. Larry Brace, was another old guild member, but we lost him to cancer about a year ago.

Rick Jamison is also in the Eugene area and still does some writing. A more gentlemanly and down to earth man I haven't met in some time. No ego investment or snobbery. When you talked he listened as though it was very important. It was truely a day that may never come again and I will cherish it.

Discussing barrels it was interesting to note all present prefered cut-rifled tubes, but all agreed that button rifled barrels were every bit as good. The secret being that both had to be made properly. I know that I have premium barrels of both types and they certainly shoot well.

Seems like I'm prattling on so will sign off. My best to all.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 03:18:18 (ZULU)

Travis: "But you can sure as hell sleep through it and not miss much."

You should have stayed awake then done some supplimental reading. You missed more than you think.

CDC',

I generally spent most of my time in and out of school reading on my own about whatever my current interest was, whenever I had some downtime, or some idot hippie the school district hired was trying to get me to study the "essence" of a pinecone, or some such horseshit. Being from a small town, it was rather easy to read every book available on the subject of the day.

No matter what type of snobbery you want to attach to your particular choice in music, I am not necessarily less educated than anyone else, just because I'd prefer to make certain our kids have a better chance at a real career than to trap them like refugees, and force them to spend time on something that WILL more than likely never help them out in the real world.

P.S.- When was the last time you heard to kids other than yours discussing works of art, or composers? More than likely, if you did, they were the kids that have had it stuffed down their throats since toddlerhood.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 04:09:01 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

Rick Jamison? Do you mean THE Rick Jamison, the former "gun writer", the one who sued Winchester because he claims that he invented the WSM cartridge? The one to whom Winchester paid an out of court settlement in order to avoid a protracted court battle? The one who caused the WSM brass and ammo to carry a price premium because of his greed? Is this the same guy?

Please, say it isn't so!!

ALAN
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 04:17:19 (ZULU)

'lito, e-mail in bound from Roster, NO attachments.

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 04:23:19 (ZULU)

Travis,

Re: Your last post addressed to CDC.

A famous Shakesperian quotation found in Hamlet should be heeded!

ALAN
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 04:29:44 (ZULU)

'lito e-mail bounced??

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 04:56:35 (ZULU)

Alan,

Yes, it was THE Rick Jamison you refered too. I'm aware of the situation between he and Winchester. Frankly, I haven't read the legal briefs, so everything I have been told is questionable. All I know is there was a court case. What actually happened or why Winchester paid a settlement I don't know and don't care.

I have a hard time believing a settlement could have effected brass and ammo prices too much, but then I don't know what the amount of the settlement was... More likely the cost of new production, marketing, etc., drove the costs up as well.

Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 05:30:23 (ZULU)

P. Hayden,

Been off lurk for a while so this is belated:

RE: Your response to Steve Jobs anti-NEA comments - Mar. 4 posting.

You stated (in part): (Jobs) "is the largest stockholder, in an industry that he personally invented." That Jobs invented the Apple I is a common misconception, but non-the-less false. Sorry, but Jobs did not invent the Apple computer, the other Steve did - Steve Wosniak! However, Jobs was instumental in converting Woz's hobby into a commercial success by encouraging Woz to make his toy into a product and finding the financial backing to make it happen. Woz was the sole engineer, designer and programmer for the Apple I.

(Computers is one of my "other" hobbies.)

JD Martin
So-central, WA, US of A - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 09:08:58 (ZULU)

Wes: "CDC, you sir, have one heck of a daughter!"

Neat kid.

"If she's as good looking as she is astute you're going to have your hands full."

She looks like her mama the former model. First team athlete. Alpha female.

"I'd say buy a shotgun to keep the boys away, but suspect you already have several...;-)"

I'm good, but thanks for your concern. ;))

Travis: " I generally spent most of my time in and out of school reading on my own about whatever my current interest was, whenever I had some downtime, or some idot hippie the school district hired was trying to get me to study the "essence" of a pinecone, or some such horseshit."

Either he wasn't teaching it right or he was pouring water into a full glass. People don't draw what they see; they draw what they think they see. Most people don't draw the pinecone before them; they draw heiroglyphics they construct from memory. Betty Edwards wrote a book called, "Drawing on the Right Side of The Brain" in which she gave excercises that allowed a WILLING AND OPEN-MINDED student to learn to draw very well, very quickly and easily. The same mental state the artist uses is also used by violinists, baseball hitters, fighter pilots and RIFLE MARKSMEN. Being able to access such a mental state is part of the purpose of art education. Other purposes for the "horse shit" exist and are at least as important.

"No matter what type of snobbery you want to attach to your particular choice in music, I am not necessarily less educated than anyone else, just because I'd prefer to make certain our kids have a better chance at a real career than to trap them like refugees, and force them to spend time on something that WILL more than likely never help them out in the real world."

Are you aware of any kind of credible study that concludes that broad educations "trap" students? If so, please post a link to that study. I'll review it for methodological errors.

"P.S.- When was the last time you heard to kids other than yours discussing works of art, or composers?"

Are we counting novels as "works of art"? The sixth-graders in any good private school can be seen unselfconsciously carrying around, reading and enjoying good books. They discuss Victor Hugo as fluidly as vidiots blather about the latest teen heart-throb.

The poor little "refugees" have no career prospects at all.

"More than likely, if you did, they were the kids that have had it stuffed down their throats since toddlerhood."

An event is "more than likely" means the probability of the event is greater than .5. Where did you get that? Did you just make it up? And what is "stuffed down their throats"? Good art? Is nutritious food similarly imposed on children? Or should we serve them an orange soda and a big can of double fudge frosting for dinner? Just open 'em both, give the kid a straw and a big spoon and let him flop down on the couch for three or four hours of MTV mind homogenization.

CDC'
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 11:13:57 (ZULU)

One thing missing from the discussion of education is that this is not Lake Webegone, and all of the children are not above average.

A common notion is that "most" kids ought to get a university education, a college degree being the ticket to wealth and happiness. However, the half of the population which is of below-average intelligence is not capable of the kind of abstract reasoning which properly should be the subject of a university education.

Unless, that is, a university education is so dumbed down that people of below-average intelligence can do the coursework - and there is some of that in evidence.

In any case, something needs to be done with those who aren't capable of doing university-level work. These days, the kinds of vocational training spoken of is widely available in junior colleges, and that's probably a good place for it, leaving the grade and high schools for an education which would, one hopes, prepare them to be good citizens.

Alas, they don't seem to get that. Our youngest daughter, now at Texas Tech, is having to be tutored in English because she was unable to pass a competency exam on that subject, because her English teacher in high school liked to lecture the students on her left-wing political leanings rather than teaching her assigned subject. The daughter is rather peeved about that, and ought to be.

In any case, we need a way to separate those who are unable to benefit from a university education, and teach them something useful. To do that, we will first have to acknowledge that not all of them should go to a university. I think the likelihood of that happening is low. Too bad.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 13:01:39 (ZULU)

Lindy' careful not to inject logic in too large portions. It could be degenerous to the quality of this exploration.

Brogers
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 13:44:21 (ZULU)

Lindy: My Elementary Analysis professor looked like a villian from "Gunsmoke". One day, He and I were standing outside in "Smoker's Siberia" chatting. He said that a local cabinet maker worked real hard, built a successful shop, then sent his son to the university. The son worked hard and got a masters in psychology. He paused, took a draw of his cig, looked thoughtful and said, "As far as I'm concerned, all he accomplished is to f***-up a guy who was potentially a perfectly good cabinet maker."

CDC'
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 13:45:58 (ZULU)

JR: I fudged the "invasion planning" by counting smaller scale raids. It is, after all, just a matter of scale. Otherwise, i have no intention of dying gallantly or otherwise anytime soon:))

Sir Wes: I second the recommendation---get that book and read it.

Travis: You have no idea how ignorant that last post sounds on its face, do you? I mean, how could you know? "I do not enjoy nor appreciate this subject; it is therefore useless" Bold statement. Art and music is a part of of historical perspective that can illuminate a period in ways the written word cannot---and this is just a fraction of the value it presents. Understanding is the goal of education--the endstate of any given postulation. You fail to understand this connectivity....now go off somewhere quiet and think about that for a while. I am always amazed when I run into folks who close their minds and then decide that their preferences should be standardized for all (get rid of this waste of time???)....you do know that history is repleat with examples of this kind of obscene thinking. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, are stirling examples....should I go on? They too thought that aspects of classical education (in the Greek sense, not in classical music per se) were unnecessary, albeit for more nefarious reasons than merely making an accomplished machinist. But then, once we decide to limit education, who sets the limits???

Go back to Sir Wes's recommendation: read that book!!! Goes for nyone who hasn't too---there is a message there that will cause you to think hard about things!!!

Lindy: In a nutshell, dude! Having standards means making judgements! Nobody wants to make the hard choices of judgement anymore, it is particularly so in education. It is, in analysis, a circular problem. The lack of willingness to say one kid is "more adept" than another brings on a cirriculum that levels the playing field. Recall that a level playing field NEVER exceeds mediocrity. Is that what we wanted? By not having the ill to step up and say "she is better than he"---it is what we got:((

Jerry: You balked, mang! Walked away from an opportunity to shoot in wind when it counted:)) That's the kind of pressure situtation that we call "good training." Shoulda fired that group...heheh. Take that with a large grain of salt---I am the guy with a range in my backyard who is sitting on his duff cuz the snow is too deep for me to wade thru. Not really, it is just my excuse. Ha.

OK, I have a commander-size Para that is, as all are, undersprung. Last one i put in an 18lb mainspring and it stopped beating me and the stops to death. Someone elesewhere posted that a 22lb workie good. In my mind--that means a 20lb-er would be great. It is for 230s 90%, and maybe some hopped up 200s now and then.

Who has a mainspring weight recommendation???

PS: Yeah, I know...I gotta practice and i shoulda got a glockaHKerCZsproingfieldsigBHP in the newest wonder .40-nine hi cap coolgun with lightrails. Oh well. All I really wanna know if anyone up-sprung their commander:))

Joe M
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 14:50:16 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

According to the listing in Brownell's catalog a 22# Wolff compact 1911 recoil spring is for Officers ACP/P-12/Kimber Compact & Pro Carry. You might drop Para Ord a note at support@paraord.com.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 15:34:35 (ZULU)

Something I overheard yesterday: "War is just demographics at high-speed."

Question: Didnt' the Soviets pick who went to what school to study which subjects?

Duman
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 15:41:33 (ZULU)

Duman: A better choice of words would have been "Evolution at high speed"---in the sense of darwin's theory. Demographics is merely a snap shot of a current situation--ie, trends and strata measured right now. War may alter demographics over time, but the process itself isn't demographics. Hmmm, I'd better quit before I can't climb out of this hole I am digging, eh?:)) France, post-World War I is an interesting study of this process. Whatever manhood was left after the great war was stomped out in WWII:)) Now look at them...

Ahhhh, total war. He who says "violence never solves anything" didn't use enough:)) Of course it does.

Interesting Doc; those 3-inchers need heavy springing--so the guy who advocated the 22# for a 4.5" gun was probably overboard, eh? Like I said, a quality 18 pound spring worked very well for me in the past (if para has one in there now--it ain't quality). The buzz had me confused. I want a slower cycle rate with less banging at the stops---but i want it to cycle too))

I got a kit from Wilson last time...any recommendations there??? BTW, this P13 has the oversize extractor (PX series), and a guide rod ala "limited" series.

I am going to shoot about 50-75 rounds, then check for same-same signs of peening where it shouldn't peen before i make a move. That was why i changed out with my last one. That, and it bitch slapped my palms with that slamming slide. I'll know that immediately...I suppose I shall change springs with that alone too. To hell with peens. Steel can be replaced, but my arthritic paws are a one-time issue:)) I sound like I left my manhood on the Marne too, eh?

Joe M
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 16:08:44 (ZULU)

Joe: Wolff Gunsprings provides packages of several different weight recoil springs for many pistols, so that you can "tune" the recoil spring to your load. You might look to see if they make a suitable package for your pistol. They're cheap enough that you can find the right one, and throw away the others.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 17:22:58 (ZULU)

JD Martin said:

"Sorry, but Jobs did not invent the Apple computer,..."

OK. The point is just that private sector success does not always translate into public sector success. In the public sector (except in dictatorships), you have to bring diverse stakeholders along with you at every step. It slows things down. That public is a big turtle, that's all.

P. Hayden
USA - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 18:01:30 (ZULU)

P. Hayden,

OK, I agree with both your and Jobs comments. Guess I was just nitpicking, cause so much misinformation and disinformation is being promulgated everywhere. My definitions: misinformation is "facts" being stated by someone who doesn't know any better, while disinformation is "facts" being stated by someone who knows they're false, i.e. propaganda.

While it may be possible to correct misinformation by stating the real facts, it's nearly impossible to correct disinformation because the promulgator(s) refuse to recognize/acknowledge the real facts.

JD Martin
So-Central, WA, US of A - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 20:57:18 (ZULU)

Do any of you watch Orange County Choppers? Those bone-heads were hired by my company to build a bike, and they're here today, showing it off. They're as moronic in person as they are on TV. I'm not sure who's the bigger idiot, OCC or the execs that spent the several $100K on that POS.

Now, Jesse James, HE knows how to build a bike....

Duman
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 21:54:56 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:23:54 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:24:03 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:24:08 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:24:12 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:24:19 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:24:27 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:24:35 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:24:39 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:24:44 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:25:01 (ZULU)

JR (and anyone else):

City of Halifax and the Province of Nova Scotia just withdrew financial support for the Halifax 2014 Commonwealth Games bid.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/03/08/games-numbers.html or click my name

Ever-expanding cost estimates were the cause.

With Halifax out of the race, the competition for the 2014 event is among Glasgow, Scotland and Abuja, Nigeria. The winner will be announced in November.

There were shooting events in the proposals from all bidding cities.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:44:18 (ZULU)

OCC satire (for those who have seen a few shows):

"Things that never (he, he) happen on American Chopper":

- A plant tour with a new client commissioning a motorcycle

- Last-minute assembly problems because a rear fender assembly was not fabricated

correctly but was still sent for paint.

- A field presentation of a project bike to a client with heavy press/TV coverage.

- Time wasted by the boys playing with the latest motorized toy

- Paul senior will make a suggestion based on years of experience to Paul Jr,

which Paul Jr will actively resist in Senior's presence.

- Last minute delays due to dis-satisfaction with a custom paint job

by an outside contactor

- A trainee with minimal supervision will assemble a standard component

but leave parts on the bench, which will be discovered after problems

are encountered

- Paul senior will pause to criticize work flow without making any constructive

suggestions on how to improve on the situation.

- Mike will wander around the shop like a lost puppy

- Rick Petko while being appraised of a horribly screwed situation will

state to on-one in particular "Hmmm, interesting..."

- A project will be delayed because the requisite outside source parts

haven't been selected and ordered.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 22:55:12 (ZULU)

JD Martin said:

"OK, I agree with both your and Jobs comments. Guess I was just nitpicking...."

At least you did not call me an idiot like the last guy.... I have a ton of respect for Steve Jobs. He came as close as anyone to giving M-soft a run for their money. And he revitalized Apple with the I-pod, etc. But he bet the company on two products.

If he tried to do the same thing in the public sector, he would be called reckless, and if not fired, at least put in a cubicle somewhere.

Friday, March 9, 2007, at 04:09:49 (ZULU)

OK HURRAH and all the other excalmations of JOY I can think of! My Dillon AT500 is now a Dillon 550B!!! The good folks at FedEx delivered all my up-grade parts today and I'm now set up for one caliber, .308...BUT the rest of the parts are on the bench for .223 and it is now set up as well!

Only problem I had, and I'll call Dillon tomorrow to get that fixed, is when I was installing the auto primer system had everything in place and was going to attach the slide bar return spring. OK I see where it attaches to the bar now where does it attach to the press? Look, look ,look dig the 550B manual they sent look at the "exploded" diagram, oh there is the spring retaining pin right.....opps it ain't there! OK a nail, just to make sure it worked, is doing the job until I call Dillon in the AM.

Everything is set up and ready to load both .308 and .223! DANG that Dillon measure is a Bi**h to adjust! Even have a tube of lg primers and another of sm primers loaded and ready to go!! Oh and the nice part about .308 is for .45ACP it uses the same shellplate and indexing buttons so I'll just use a powder measure adapter I have and place it on the AT500 powder die, granted won't have "auto" powder dispensing but heck it'll do! So only thing I need at this point is shellplate and buttons for 9mm and I'll be able to load everything I shoot with!!

Now to find $$$$ for reloading supplies!!

ONE HAPPY CAMPER!!!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 07:35:43 (ZULU)

Sarge

Buying reloading supplies is like buy gas for your car. You just got to have it.

Gary Kaney
N.W., IL, - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 09:30:05 (ZULU)

Sarge: Having more primer tubes saves time. Sportsman's Warehouse carries them.

CDC'
Friday, March 9, 2007, at 09:38:25 (ZULU)

Sarge,

I installed an auto prime system on my RL450, and the primer slides were "dimensionally challenged". The spring loaded primer pockets were exactly centered, but the design (and older slides) have the pocket offset by several thousandths. A touch up with emery paper solved that problem. I also used a thin layer of white lithium grease to keep it from hanging up. After a few thousand rounds, they are broken in quite nicely.

Duman
Friday, March 9, 2007, at 16:17:05 (ZULU)

Sarge, I am jealous. I want to get a 550 but a new baby, garage and family room have seriously cut into my shooting related toys.

I won't get into the education debate. I am married to a teacher and we argue enough about the education systems. My only comment is knowledge can't be taken from you and the more of it you have the better. Knowlege is a tool you may never use but it is really nice when you need it.

Does any one know where to look to purchase an original early 1800's muzzle loading rifle? An ancestor of mine built them in WV in the early 1800's and my dad would like to find one to bring back into the family. My knowledge of muzzleloaders is limited to the fact the muzzle blast gives away the hide position;)

Suns out, high of 50 today and tomorrow. Time to go lay in the mud on the range and have some fun.

Lindy the MIT link is great.

Joe how much is one of those "glockaHKerCZsproingfieldsigBHP" and does it come in pink?

Keith
Northcentral, WV, - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 16:54:03 (ZULU)

"Does any one know where to look to purchase an original early 1800's muzzle loading rifle?..."

The Maryland Arms Collector Association is having their annual show at the Timmonium Fair Grounds (I-83 North of I-695 in Timmonium) next weekend March 17 and 18. This show is attended by collectors from accross the USA and from Europe. There will probably be some vintage ML's there.

Jerry

Jerry
Annapolis, MD, USA - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 17:31:29 (ZULU)

"Remember Me"

(click my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 17:49:59 (ZULU)

Yes click his name!

Brogers
Friday, March 9, 2007, at 18:10:18 (ZULU)

CDC, Yes Sir knew that and got a extra "4-pack", 2 lg, 2 sm, when I ordered. Next order, in a couple of weeks, will be the Primer warning system, then after that, don't know, but may order the Powder warning system as well.

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 18:32:01 (ZULU)

**** D.C. Appeals Court Ruling Holds Second Amendment Protects 'Individual Right' ****

That ruling also invalidates the Washington, D.C. 1976 gun ban!

Click on my name for more!

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 19:08:42 (ZULU)

Duman,

You can't be serious when you said your company actually spent over one hundred thousand dollars for a motorcycle? That is insane. Hell, I thought $16,000 was insane for a new HD. I love motorcycles, but I don't think I'd drop that kind of cash even if I had it.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 19:17:18 (ZULU)

Bill,

No joke. The bike was supposed to be ridden on stage at 2pm, local time. It finally rolled in at ~2:36 (time stamp on photo), because they couldn't get it started. Then Paul Sr. came within a RCH of dumping it on the way up the ramp. The near 'disaster' was caught on film (digitally).

What a waste. Only in America.

BTW, I have to openly wonder about a 'biker' that a)assembles, but can't build, a bike, b)can't start what he 'built', and c)can't handle the bike once it's running.

Duman
Friday, March 9, 2007, at 19:57:59 (ZULU)

That show's geared for 12 year olds.

...or have I insulted that age group? :)

Fred Bittner
PA, USA - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 20:42:37 (ZULU)

WARNING: Long, probably fictional, but humorous, post to follow .....

===================================================================

Deer Roping! Take from the Kansas Wildlife, Fisheries, & Parks.

I had this idea that I was going to rope a deer, put it in a stall, feed it up on corn for a couple of weeks, then kill it and eat it. The first step in this adventure was getting a deer. I figured that since they congregated at my cattle feeder and do not seem to have much fear of me when we are there (a bold one will sometimes come right up and sniff at the bags of feed while I am in the back of the truck not 4 feet away) that it should not be difficult to rope one, get up to it and toss a bag over its head (to calm it down) then hog tie it and transport it home.

I filled the cattle feeder then hid down at the end with my rope. The cattle, who had seen the roping thing before, stayed well back. They were not having any of it. After about 20 minutes my deer showed up. 3 of them. I picked out a likely looking one, stepped out from the end of the feeder, and threw my rope. The deer just stood there and stared at me. I wrapped the rope around my waist and twisted the end so I would have a good hold. The deer still just stood and stared at me, but you could tell it was mildly concerned about the whole rope situation. I took a step towards it. It took a step away. I put a little tension on the rope and received an education.

The first thing that I learned is that while a deer may just stand there looking at you funny while you rope it, they are spurred to action when you start pulling on that rope. That deer EXPLODED.

The second thing I learned is that pound for pound, a deer is a LOT stronger than a cow or a colt. A cow or a colt in that weight range I could fight down with a rope with some dignity. A deer, no chance. That thing ran and bucked and twisted and pulled. There was no controlling it and certainly no getting close to it. As it jerked me off my feet and started dragging me across the ground, it occurred to me that having a deer on a rope was not nearly as good an idea as I originally imagined. The only up side is that they do not have as much stamina as many animals. A brief 10 minutes later, it was tired and not nearly as quick to jerk me off my feet and drag me when I managed to get up. It took me a few minutes to realize this, since I was mostly blinded by the blood flowing out of the big gash in my head.

At that point I had lost my taste for corn fed venison. I just wanted

to get that devil creature off the end of that rope. I figured if I just let it go with the rope hanging around its neck, it would likely die slow and painfully somewhere. At the time, there was no love at all between me and that deer. At that moment, I hated the thing and I would venture a guess that the feeling was mutual. Despite the gash in my head and the several large knots where I had cleverly arrested the deer's momentum by bracing my head against various large rocks as it dragged me across the ground, I could still think clearly enough to recognize that there was a small chance that I shared some tiny amount of responsibility for the situation we were in, so I didn't want the deer to have to suffer a slow death. I managed to get it lined up to back in between my truck and the feeder, a little trap I had set beforehand. Kind of like a squeeze chute. I got it to back in there and started moving up so I could get my rope back.

Did you know that deer bite? They do! I never in a million years would have thought that a deer would bite somebody so I was very surprised when I reached up there to grab that rope and the deer grabbed hold of my wrist.

Now, when a deer bites you, it is not like being bit by a horse where they just bite you and then let go. A deer bites you and shakes its head. Almost like a pit bull. They bite HARD and it hurts. The proper thing to do when a deer bites you is probably to freeze and draw back slowly. I tried screaming and shaking instead. My method was ineffective. It seems like the deer was biting and shaking for several minutes, but it was likely only several seconds. I, being smarter than a deer (though you may be questioning that claim by now) tricked it. While I kept it busy tearing the bejesus out of my right arm, I reached up with my left hand and pulled that rope loose.

That was when I got my final lesson in deer behavior for the day. Deer will strike at you with their front feet. They rear right up on their back feet and strike right about head and shoulder level, and their hooves are surprisingly sharp. I learned a long time ago that when an animal like a horse strikes at you with their hooves and you can't get away easily, the best thing to do is try to make a loud noise and make an aggressive move towards the animal. This will usually cause them to back down a bit so you can escape. This was not a horse. This was a deer, so obviously such trickery would not work. In the course of a millisecond I devised a different strategy. I screamed like a woman and tried to turn and run.

The reason I had always been told NOT to try to turn and run from a horse that paws at you is that there is a good chance that it will hit you in the back of the head. Deer may not be so different from horses after all, besides being twice as strong and three times as evil, because the second I turned to run, it hit me right in the back of the head and knocked me down.

Now when a deer paws at you and knocks you down it does not immediately leave. I suspect it does not recognize that the danger has passed. What they do instead is paw your back and jump up and down on you while you are laying there crying like a little girl and covering your head. I finally managed to crawl under the truck and the deer went away.

Now for the local legend. I was pretty beat up. My scalp was split open, I had several large goose eggs, my wrist was bleeding pretty good and felt broken (it turned out to be just badly bruised) and my back was bleeding in a few places, though my insulated canvas jacket had protected me from most of the worst of it. I drove to the nearest place, which was the co-op.

I got out of the truck, covered in blood and dust and looking like hell. The guy who ran the place saw me through the window and came running out yelling "what happened"

I have never seen any law in the state of Kansas that would prohibit an individual from roping a deer. I suspect that this is an area that they have overlooked entirely. Knowing, as I do, the lengths to which law enforcement personnel will go to exercise their power, I was concerned that they may find a way to twist the existing laws to paint my actions as criminal. I swear. Not wanting to admit that I had done something monumentally stupid played no part in my response. I told him "I was attacked by a deer."

I did not mention that at the time I had a rope on it. The evidence was all over my body. Deer prints on the back of my jacket where it had stomped all over me and a large deer print on my face where it had struck me there.I asked him to call somebody to come get me. I didn't think I could make it home on my own. He did.

Later that afternoon, a game warden showed up at my house and wanted to know about the deer attack. Surprisingly, deer attacks are a rare thing and wildlife and parks was interested in the event. I tried to describe the attack as completely and accurately as I could. I was filling the grain hopper and this deer came out of nowhere and just started kicking the heaven out of me and BIT me. It was obviously rabid or insane or something.

EVERYBODY for miles around knows about the deer attack (the guy at the co-op has a big mouth). For several weeks people dragged their kids in the house when they saw deer around and the local ranchers carried rifles when they filled their feeders. I have told several people the story, but NEVER anybody around here. I have to see these people every day and as an outsider, a "city folk", I have enough trouble fitting in without them snickering behind my back and whispering "there is the ding-butt that tried to rope the deer."

===================================================================

Duman
Friday, March 9, 2007, at 20:46:56 (ZULU)

OCC bikes:

A company purchasing a theme bike from OCC gets the benefit of the implicit advertising from the show.

The persons appearing onscreen will typically mention "The xxxxxx" bike about every 5 minutes during discussions. The presentation episode is almost a continuous commercial for the commissioning company.

So if you think the audience watching OCC is a possible market for your products, that would be good value.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, March 9, 2007, at 22:03:26 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Duman: That was the funniest thing I have read lately. I knew shooting the darn things were justified.

Pat II
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 01:24:56 (ZULU)

OK, can't help it: OCC/West Coast Choppers/Indian Larry/etc. bikes are like buying any other art....they're worth what they're worth, and ain't very functional. I like my '86 hotrod XL...mildly nice looking and fast enough to kill ya dead in a heartbeat.

Deer roping. I vividly remember when I 'bout 12 or so, out in the sticks hunting "gophers" (belding ground squirrels specifically) when I sees this local cowboy of some repute moving cows. He sees a real nice 4X4 mulie buck in the alfalfa (this being during the rut). Now I was a ways away, but when he stopped and eyed this buck, I could see the wheels turning. Understand that he and his brothers had some experience in roping Fallow deer...the neighbor had a couple roaming around as pets 'mongst his sheep, and the "boys" would rope 'em and throw 'em back over the fence whenever they (the Fallows) decided the neighbor's alfalfa looked better.

So, this cowboy shakes a loop out and lights out after the mulie buck. The buck looks as this crazed cowboy and lights a shuck hisself (I'm degenerating into my grandpa's Missouri here). Cowboy is actually purty good...makes a perfect head catch first loop. Buck hits the end of the rope and hits the ground...then bounces back up like on springs, and...you guessed it...aims right down the rope at the source of his troubles. Now a horse can outrun a mulie buck, but only if he gets a headstart and ain't too skeered. But if somewhat ticked off, is a mite faster. Buck goes to pokin the horse in the flanks and the rodeo is on. Cowboy might be a purty good roper, but ain't much as a saddle bronc rider. Last scene in my head is the cowboy on the ground, the horse headed for the barn at a dead run, and the buck headed over the ridge with 30 feet of Kings rope on his antlers.

Talk to any wildlifer that's had experience in "deer rasslin" and they'll tell you the same things that Duman related. They bite, kick, jump and don't give up. Actually, elk are easier to handle once trapped.

Eddication: I told both of my boys (only two kids) to get a college education...in anything....because it would open career doors that would otherwise be closed. Followed closely by telling them to learn to do something with their hands, because fewer and fewer people know how to build anything. Have one in the AirForce Red Horse (construction), and an architect that's built a couple of houses as well as knowing how to design 'em. I could die happy right now...the rest of life is gravy!

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 01:25:55 (ZULU)

Hey Guys

I won't get into the OCC thing. Can't stand Paul Sr. He is such an asshole. The bikes are good quality but there are a lot better customizers out there. It's like the Rickles of custom bikes.

I would like to ask your opinions. I'm about to make a shotgun purchase.

Either a Remington 870 Express Synthetic (maybe super magnum) or the Mossberg 590 series. Any preferences? It's primarily for home defense. I appreciate your input.

Thanks

doug sickels
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 02:02:09 (ZULU)

re: shotgun selection

more accessories available for the 870, if that is important to you.

Surefire replacement forend for white light is a very nice option, major improvement in target ID capability under subdued/no light conditions.

Available for both 870 and 590.

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/carfnbr/92/sesent/00

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 02:33:25 (ZULU)

Andy and I just got back from the movies.

We went to see 300.

Wow! Great Movie!!!

It has some things to say about today's political/war situation.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, US of A - Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 02:54:27 (ZULU)

Listen to this one: I posted a WTS Weaver T-10 El Paso on the Emporium. Some guy bought it then said it wasn't an El Paso at all. He said it had an aluminum tube. So - STUPIDLY - I send the guy back the $$ + $10. About a month later he sends me a package. When I finally got around to opening it I saw that IT WASN'T MY SCOPE!!! The creep put a never-been-mounted Japanese Weaver CT10 in the box. I knew goddamn well that my tube was steel. Blued goddamn steel. Anyway...

Now, if the guy sends me MY scope back, + my $10 AND return postage, I'll send him back HIS scope and we can have a good laugh.

I have the original reciept with a full description of the scope, there is a complete discussion of the scope - with a full description - on the Roster (Alan helped me out), and I USED TO PLAY POKER WITH ALL THE BEST LAWYERS IN HIS HOME TOWN!!! I lived there off and on for years.

Man, you try to treat people fairly and they pull this shit.

CDC'
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 04:24:31 (ZULU)

Keith: Those cookie cutter pistolas are cheap, but I dunno: I am partial to 1911s and close copies of the same. I despise 9mm in any gun--but that prejudice comes from military limitations by treaty on what you can launch. Little ball ammo is bad juju. Big ball ammo is still bad, but less so:)) At least .45 ball doesn't shrink to 9mm; while 9mm ball never expands to .45...unless, of course, the dude has a serious coating of tin. Oz, anyone?

DC Ruling: Wow, there was a big huge happy surprise. Kelo v. New London was also a surprise, 180 degrees out. Wouldn't consistency in such decisions be cool? I mean, either rule according to the constitution all the time, or not at all. That way we either get it right, or we arrive at the do-over point all the quicker...

Still, this is one important ruling! It could force SCOTUS to take a stand, or as is likely--just leave it as settled law where it stands. Pandora's box awaits. Heheh...I can't wait til i get the degree to play this game:))

Duman: I about fell over reading that!

Doug: I like 870s; seems like there is no end to the aftermarket---either to improve them (ie, sights, barrels) or to make them kewler (ie, M4 adjustable stocks which will focus all the recoil to wherever it hurts the most). I do not like the tang safeties on the 'bergs, or the fit and finish---seems like when you rack the 500series, the rails flex.

CDC: Post that asshats name if he fails to remedy this situation. I certainly wouldn't want to do any business with him....and, hey, you never know when a path crosses.

Edited: Three judge appeals court panel, two in favor, one dissent:

"Judge Karen Henderson dissented, writing that the Second Amendment does not apply to the District of Columbia because it is not a state"

So the constitution is suspended in DC? Ha, that explains a lot of BS flowing from that cesspit...but, do you suppose she would also say that the constitution similarly does not apply to foriegn battlefields or Guantanamo? Yeah right; and there is the glaring lack of consistency when we try to play the living document game. This liberal clown was reaching here---and she is also the same clown who thinks that illegal combatants deserve constitutional protections. Hows that grab ya---citizens of the district do not deserve such considerations, but bad guys in foriegn lands do. I bet she sees no conflict of logic, either!

Whatta tool. She really pisses me off.

Joe M
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 06:16:18 (ZULU)

Jeez, by extension from the dissent opinion, if the Bill of Rights doesn't apply in DC, I can see the crime rate taking a real nose dive. Without the 4th, 5th and 6th(?) & 14th Ammedments, the rules of criminal procedure just got real interesting. "Warrants, we don't need no steenking warrants........."

That judges appointment to the bench makes it obvious Darwin was either wrong, or that civilized societies cause a pause in evolution.

WR Moore
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 14:14:48 (ZULU)

Thanks guys, the 870 it is.

SSG Mac

I lost your email address. I was going to get in touch with you about the land information in Tennessee. Hope all is well.

Thanks

doug sickels
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 15:49:49 (ZULU)

Hopefully, this story will become a confirmed catch. As yet, it is supposition by the Iraqis...click my name

WR Moore: I posted a link a while ago on The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity. The author passed away, and the family has been busy removing all copies from the web. Here's one working link:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1510/is_1987_Spring/ai_4793220

I cut and pasted a copy for record...it is that good. Kinda goes along with your posted comments:))

50 degrees by Monday, 47 today. I'd call it a good day for shooting--but the 2-4 feet of snow piled up makes it a lousy day.

What I learned while snowed in:

1. Rennovation projects are fun right up to the mud drying and ready for sanding:((

2. paper tape is pure crap. Fiberglass strand mesh tape is by far the better choice for mudding walls.

3. Measuring twice and cutting once works when used:((

4. There are no right angles in old construction homes, including in the vertical!

5. Resist the temptation to use "excess" drywall pieces behind the door to save money. Mosaics are best left to artsy-types.

6. Don't frame in the doorway until the bigger material is positioned inside said doorway.

I bet these some of this would have been non-issued by writing the plan down on paper rather than storing it in my head. That said, I did well with most critical path nodes identified.

Joe M
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 17:22:55 (ZULU)

Doug Sickels - I have to agree, the 870s have a lot more accessories but not to offend anyone from the big green camp...a few Mossbergs worth looking at:

590 Special Purpose, 9 round with ghost ring sights, parkerized, speed feed stock (synthetic)

590 Mariner 9 round, marinecote (corrosion resistant finish), swivels

two that I don't see listed anymore but may be found used:

9200 Jungle semi-auto with clean-out tube...tunnel rat's delight (I know it's not a pump) originally designed for the military

590 bullpup, strange looking, 9 round, VERY maneuverable, M-16 style carry handle, heat shield, sights built into top of carry handle, large recoil pad, grip safety...not to be confused with 500 bullpup (7 rounder)

(I own two of these, one brand new still in the box...purchased both when they were discontinued).

Gerry

Gerry
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 18:06:07 (ZULU)

HOT!HOT!HOT!HOT!HOT!HOT!HOT!HOT!HOT!

Gents,

Watch this ruling from the fed appeals court closely; it has significant implications for the second ammendment. To be blunt, it endangers all manner of gun control legislation nationally. Should this rulling stand, it will be a major victory for us.

Both sides of the debate realize this, or soon will (and the antis will be out in force, along with the Schumers and fellow travellers). The full appeals court will opine soon, and the loosing side will surely take it to the next and final level. The 1934 and 1968 legislation, and mods to both since, are seriously undermined by this simple and correct ruling--but only if this stands the coming tests. In case you don't know--the only significant challenge to the 34 legislation was settled by default--the plantiff, our government, was the only side represented to the court. That abomination stood due to the challenger's no-show (or some say, the government's interest in not having to defend the obviously flawed case against a living, breathing defendant). Ha; this ruling re-opens a door that we must run, en masse, thru.

Gents, this one ruling, surprisingly, can reclaim the most critical "unalienable" right contained in the bill of ten such rights. That it comes out of DC is the surprise, but once the battle is joined, the geography is moot! This is where the challenge falls--so do not allow the moment to pass unnoticed. It will affect all of us whether we think so now or not. It will be a dream if stands--a setback that will never be undone if it fails. This case, either way, has the strongest potential of becoming settled law for any and all following it.

Discussion, research, and donations are in order. We---gun owners and strict 2d ammendment adherents--must find ways to ensure this case gets heard---with the best talent (and a unified front) available to push it. How--I dunno yet...but I will put my money where my keyboard is when I find out more about where to send it:))

Look into what just fell into our laps. It is the golden moment. Look at it closely and post your thoughts.

Link to court ruling (pdf)--click my name. Referenced, on page 10, is the 9th circuit's ruling on a similar case. There is case-law conflict between 5th and 9th BTW, and now this one goes straight to the heart of the matter---it is getting damned near impossible for the supremes to sit it out. (man, will the antis ever get their panties in a knot over this potential calamity for their twisted agenda...)

Joe M
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 20:49:25 (ZULU)

Gents,

For a walk down the history of the second ammendment's court cases and meanings--click my name. It's a good refresher for the knowledgeable; or a one-over-the-world look at where the debate stands for the relatively uninitiated (legally speaking, of course). Also mentions the tension between the 5th and 9th circuits' court rulings I alluded to earlier in minor detail.

Here's another resource: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/beararms.htm

Here, we will find caselaw from th 7th circuit (states not constrained to the 2d by the 14th ammendment) that also conflicts with the DC ruling (state, or district compliance under 14th to all the 10 ammendments, as well as the "individual" right of the second), in addition to all the conflict mentioned between the 5th (individual right) and 9th (militia, no individual right) and DC's ruling. Something has gotta give, eh?

Seriously, the case in DC has big implications and merits our undivided attention. Hunters, comp-guys, collectors, dealers, pro-rights groups, we all have a stake here and now.

Joe M
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 22:06:21 (ZULU)

Ok, let's try this again. Another possible catch? The retired IRG head recently took a trip to Beruit.... and promptly disappeared. The Iranians are frantically searching, the dude knows where, when, how & what the Iranians have been doing in Iraq. The Isrealis think we have him....or do they have him and are spreading disinformation? Or will Damascus/Amman sell to the highest bidder? Stay tuned.

JoeM- I feel your pain, BTDT, got the scars. I've wired 2 barns to electical skematics I did before I started. Piece of cake. I'm in the middle of wiring 2 barns on the fly cause the wife was bitching about the waste of time, they needed juice for this, that, whatever. NEVER AGAIN, NFW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course it would help if I had a concrete objective, but plans keep changing, as do priorities.

I keep getting questions about lights in the arena. OK, which lights? 'Till I know, ain't doing squat. [I've got the KVA estimate, I could run underground power supply and do the entrance panel, but I don't need another job to do in the middle of 2 others.]

If I suspected before, I know now why the old man ran away from the farm at 16.

Snow-do what the Swedes do, pile it up high and shoot into it. Recover and re-use your bullets in the spring thaw.

WR Moore
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 22:15:12 (ZULU)

Thanks Gerry, I was looking into the 590 series vs the Rem 870 series. I'm going to check them out next week, and am coming home with something.

doug sickels
Saturday, March 10, 2007, at 23:41:13 (ZULU)

Thanks Joe M. for the gun law lessons! Important for all to know!

Gerry
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 00:37:38 (ZULU)

My apologies for the following non-gun info.

Are you all familiar with "CHECK 21" Federal Reserve ruling that takes away some consumer rights in banking? It was passed a few years ago but wasn't widely publicized. Be careful if your bank wants you to go paperless, allow substitute checks etc. (a number of other so called programs incorporate the rules). To see a consumers' union interpretation and cautions click:

http://www.consumersunion.org/finance/ckclear1002.htm

One of it's sticklers is it allows banks to process checks more quickly and reduces float, but on the other hand if you deposit a check, it may process faster but the banks are under no obligation to make the deposited funds available any sooner.

I feel like I work hard enough for my money and I'm sure you feel the same. Once again my apologies.

Gerry

Gerry
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 01:23:35 (ZULU)

Gerry: Familiar indeed with that paperless aspect, among other things. It made overseas aafes shopping (me) easier for my wife to balance out--by electronically running the check instantaneously thru the fed. So, my money flies out within hours. I come home and (attempt) deposit a large check to same local account--and ask: Will this be available within 24hrs? Answer-No. Same "old" wait of 10 business days (hey, that is double the old hold). Needless to say, that local bank was promptly replaced with another that did not play the accrual game at my expense. The new bank was more than happy to cash a check from a home sale, and place funds in realtime. Be sure to ask about this--the bank knows right damned now if that check you deposit is good or not--and if they "hold" your money---they are gouging you.

Joe M
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 01:54:15 (ZULU)

Doug S.

take a look at the Benelli Nova (the Ghost-ring is my favourite) before making your purchase. Not as many accessories but good sights out of the box, magazine cut-off, one piece synthetic stock/receiver unit, and 3.5 in chamber are good points in its' favour. Due to the ATFE, Benelli can't import mag extensions any longer but they are available through Brownell's. Only thing I don't like is a lack of dedicated light-forend, but there are ways around that, too.

Duman,

I caught one of our little Blacktail deer here once, and may I tell you that once will be all, thank you. Wasn't bitten but carried hoof-shaped bruises for two weeks. Pretty good for an animal that probably didn't weigh 70 lbs. And people worry about the bears....

Erik in Kodiak
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 03:43:17 (ZULU)

CDC'
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 04:42:10 (ZULU)

CDC...

I remember the "El Paso" thread.

You got a Japanese scope back (that's not very nice :((

Now... the scope you got back is optically and mechanically a better scope than the one you sent.

But that notwithstanding, he's pulling a fast one.

Some shitball did this to me on Ebay - I sold three "cream puff" professional motion picture camera lenses - about $1,700 worth. He was a collector of Arriflex equipment, and needed a small plastic finger piece for one of his lenses, so he bought my three, and took off the little piece, and then sent them back (without permission), and DEMANDED his money back.

I caught the missing piece right away, and figured this mo'fo is one stupid asshole - now I got his money, and my lenses, and he's giving ME a lotta shit???

I emailed him that I did not sell them on approval, and that I noticed that there was a part missing.

And I advised him that they were his, and if he wanted them back, I would return them less 30% restocking fee, plus $50 for handling and shipping to send them back to him.

He went batshit, and called eBay, and I called the AG's office. The AG said that since he sent them back without approval and/or with prior agreement, I had no responsibility to return them - legally, they were a gift.

So, he screamed and I kept them and ebay didn't do doodly squat.

Back to your situation - I don't believe in rewarding scumbags.

Tell the Mo'Fo' that you sent him a steel scope, and you thank him for the gift of a nice aluminum scope... and forgetaboutit!

He tried to fuck you... what comes around, goes around, and its his turn in the barrel.

I'm sooooo tired of the garbage in this world. Ask me about lawyers someday.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 06:29:41 (ZULU)

HOOOORAY FOR 'lito...A perfect example of why everyone here likes you!

Gerry
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 08:07:35 (ZULU)

JoeM,

Thanks for the link..Some eye opening stuff..So the anti's figure the 2nd amendment refers to the people the states figure should have the right to KEEP and BEAR arms, but not individuals themselves..They figure they can pick and choose which rights under our constitution are available to individuals, and which are allowable to 'groups' the government sees fit, perhaps military, police, and state 'militia's' regulated by the government. Well, if this is the case, then that sets the precedent that individuals are pretty much screwed on the rest of the bill of rights..If this goes to the supreme court, this will be a good thing..

I rather enjoyed the DC's approach to the actual literal langauage of the 2nd amend, 'to bear', and 'to keep'...The paraphrasing was laughable.

Me thinks this could be the beginning of a real shit storm for the anti's, if, this gets further in the courts.

'Lito,

Just a month ago, austrian customer(don't trust the austrians much now anyway with the whole Steyr-iran) says they are sending 2 barrels back that don't shoot. Fine, will have a look. One look up barrels, not ours. How could I tell? pretty easy, as every barrel sent to that firm in 3 years we've dealt with 'em was a 5r cut rifled barrel bar one caliber(270), and this was a 6 groove .22CF. Didn't even need to clean it to tell that one. Sent 'em an email back stating, can see what the problem is, next time use a border.

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 12:03:29 (ZULU)

JR...

"Dear Austrian type persons.

I am in receipt of the barrels you sent to me, stating that they are very poor quality and don't shoot well.

I have examined said barrels and have to agree with you. They are very poor barrels, and should have never been sold. To sell barrels like these is an insult to the shooting industry.

Thank you for returning these inferior examples of the barrel makers craft.

I have instructed my staff to destroy these pieces of the worst examples of barrel making I have ever seen.

P.S.

We did not make these POS barrels - we don't use that kind of rifling.

Next time, BUY BORDER BARRELS!!

Yours truly, I remain

JR!

HA! JR... you made me laugh.

CDC...

In what I wrote above, I didn't catch that you had sent his money back first.

Never do that, unless you are dealing with a real friend... you should have waited to get the scope back before you sent him the money. I mean, even if it wasn't a jap scope - he coulda had a broke one, and swapped, and then where would you be??

Next time (with a stranger) get the money back first... then you have both when you are deciding what to do.

I have one of the new Rem 700 CDL .17 Fireball Ltd. editions down in the local jail, waiting for bail ;)

It sure is pretty. I'll blame on 'yotie, that's what I'll do ;)

I have to stop going to places like that. I can't afford it!

Beer joints and cat houses are cheaper.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 15:14:16 (ZULU)

Pablo: After your experience with the .221, you bought ANOTHER stock Remmie?

If remarrage is a triumph of hope over reason, what is...

...never mind. I wish you two every happiness.

"They say that you live and that you learn,

but the lessons just go on and on and on"_______ Clint Black

CDC'
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 15:31:35 (ZULU)

CDC...

>" Pablo: After your experience with the .221, you bought ANOTHER stock Remmie?"<

Actually, it's not 'yoties fault, it's YOUR FAULT!! It was your comments about your 300WM Sendero that caused me to buy my .264WM Sendero-II Flutie. And that sucka shoots like a top end custom riffle.

So that's why I bought this one (with my fingers crossed), so if it doesn't shoot, YOU know who's fault it is... it's Y-O-O-O-U-R fault ;))

>"If remarrage is a triumph of hope over reason, what is...

...never mind. I wish you two every happiness.

On my sending D**** S**** of F*********, ** a refund before he sent MY scope:

"They say that you live and that you learn,

but the lessons just go on and on and on"_______ Clint Black

I learned another one. Now it's his turn."<

I hear that!! You should post his full name and where he is from, so other guys don't get burned... plus it's part of the "his turn" philosophy!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 15:40:22 (ZULU)

Would you buy 1,200,000 tons of scrap railroad train tracks for $50 a ton, from a guy in Nigeria named Muhammed Abukar.

Hello??

Ain't e-mail just great???

Pass me the drugs :)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 17:25:56 (ZULU)

CDC: Posting that clown's name is not without precedent here on the DR. You will not be the first to do so after trying to make right.

On the second ammendment: two basic conflicts at the appellate level: First and obvious--is it a right of the individual or the state (militia). This devolves down to who controls, how much control, etc. The second conflict is whether or not the states are constrained to "deal with it" by the 14th. In other words, are the states free to limit this one right in the original bill, or not. SCOTUS has avoided ruling anywhere on these issues by intent for a very long time. The lower courts are, by being all over the map in opposition to each other---forcing their hand however. Strictly speaking, most gun laws do violate the constitution. Now, mot people who are not of our community deeply feel that somehow there should be "reasonable" limits placed on who owns guns. Feeling that way and reading the constitution creates a dilemma for scholars and justices alike. Too avoid making that choice, they avoided making that choice:)) I gota hand it to the NRA and other groups on this count too: Over the years, they have won little insignificant cases that alone meant nothing. But, one little seemingly unrelated ruling over the years links "individual" to the entire bill of rights, and has been upheld in atleast 7 other unrelated cases. Heheh. Strategy:))

Oddly, we are far, far beyond the conflicts that brought "Roe V. Wade" to the top court. That case had only one single conflicting case, on a minor point. Politics in the courts. If you doubt that and think the judiciary is sacrosanct--you have yer head in the sand.

Lito is right: "I'm sooooo tired of the garbage in this world. Ask me about lawyers someday."

Lito: Do not hold this against me, for I have a plan. I am going to Law school this fall or next (depending on how fast I can turn the VA on my benefits). The idea is that the many places where people used to be able to get redress (justice) is now the domain of the shyster, and to kick down those doors is not a bad thing. To hate someone's methodology and philosophy on the outside is to make noise; to do so from within is to make serious trouble:)) Now, to make this work and maintain my perspective I needed an alternate source of income (to rely on a law degree is to co-opt). The comfortable income that cometh whilst I sit upon my duff frees up all manner of possibilities:)) I could take cases for a side of beef rather than an arm and a leg--cases that other lawyers laugh at cuz their is no money, only justice, involved. I am driven by a deep disgust (understatement alert!) of where our so-called justice system sits. It is just another arm of the government's power--no where near the "check and balance" that it was envisioned to be. Part of this is due to the practitioners, the other blame falls on the voter who wants utopia provided by his vote. One man cannot change the sytem...but one guy can change this or that here and there. BTDT; I tried to change the army in my mind thus becoming an officer. In the end, I was content to change my small corner of it while impacting the seeds of change in the future (my soldiers).

The legal system is much the same---but to play, it takes a degree. I despise how lawyers act and what most of them later become upon practice---not the law, nor the profession in and of itself. I may not win my idealistic cases, but I will put judges on record of disregarding the law and precendent thru those efforts...which later could also become a tactic for change. I have a long view of things now. Learned that the hard way thru frustrations.

So, hate lawyers on a case-by-case basis---and don't hate me just yet:))

Joe M
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 17:39:50 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Good luck in law school. I'm sure many of us would be proud to have you represent us in our hour of need. (There is something to be said about a rascal with honor and integrity!)

Gerry
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 18:08:06 (ZULU)

CDC,

All of the "El Paso" Weaver scopes that I'm aware of were made of blued steel. They were manufactured at the Weaver facility in El Paso, Texas from 1930 until 1984 when financial problems caused the company to cease operations.

Omark bought the name in 1988 and began marketing scopes under the Weaver brand, but AFAIK these were made by Japanese or other Pacific Rim contractors. I believe that they were all aluminum. I have no experience with these scopes!

There was (or is) an aluminum T-series scope that was manufactured under the Weaver name when Blount assumed ownership of the brand and I believe that these scopes are still being made. I have one of these T-10 scopes, and like 'lito says they're optically superior to the old El Paso T-Series version and retain the excellent Micro-Trac adjustment system. I'm not so sure of the CT-10 designation that you describe. Mine doesn't have a C designation anywhere on the scope or on the original packaging (which I still have).

I have a bunch of old El Paso Weavers. They are all easily identified by the stamping on top of their blued steel tube located right before the threads for the ocular eyepiece begin. Here's how they'll look -

WEAVER T10 (then possibly a designator such as 60-B on the same line).

USA. PAT.NO. 2632251 (for example) directly under the Weaver name in one size smaller font.

EL PASO TEX. USA. directly under that, also in the smaller size font.

I sure hope that you can get this resolved post haste. If not, why don't you post this guys name and location here on the DR. Perhaps one of the Hawgs lives in reasonable proximity and can convince this douchebag of the error of his ways ;)

ALAN
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 18:15:22 (ZULU)

Joe M...

They will eat your liver.

A very good friend was a commercial photographer, and got screwed, so he hired a lawyer, and the lawyer screwed him even worse.

So he sold everything and went to law "screwl" to wear a white hat and help the good guys, and make a reasonable living.

He graduated top in his class at a prestigious law screwl, and clerked for a Supreme Court Judge.

He has been doing it for about 20 years and he is now diagnosed as in clinical depression. He says he has never done anything so dirty in his life, and even his clients lie to him all the time - he can't tell the good guys from the badd guys cuz there ain't no good guys.

Ruggus Rattus understands he can't be a doctor or a lawyer.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 18:23:45 (ZULU)

"a rascal with honor and integrity"

When I read that, I laughed out loud! Me???? Ha! But I am working on it:)) But i have many, many flaws to overcome!!!

That got me thinking...

(BS alert!)

We do things that allow those words to come to being, but not for that single purpose. I think it starts with selfessness and loyalty. Ya gotta put some ideal, or group, or something, ahead of yourself. Then be consistant in that passion, eh? But Once you use that passion for self over group (or ideal)--you lose it all. Honor and integrity is not something to be claimed--it is bestowed, eh? Reminds me of that morality thread (I think Bravo started it). Those traits can only be a goal...if you think you "are there" with them--you will fall short. A work always in progress! Those traits, Loyalty, Honor, Integrity, duty, selfessness etc---all come from within but must be oriented without; and the judgement by others is where those traits are recognized.

Joe M
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 18:35:40 (ZULU)

Lito: Bravo told me much the same thing. I think that the advantage is "hobby" as opposed to "living." I will not practice law by a shingle; I won't list. I may do some juvie defense stuff to get a feel for the local systems (the prosecutors are out of their minds around here ruining kids for smoking and drinking and other spanking offenses)--but, I will focus on primarily property and constitutional law. The appointed boards with confiscation authority around here are vulnerable to a federal challlenge--but the farmers don't have the means to make that challenge. I'll play in that field. The differnce, i hope, is that I will do this for fun and not a paycheck. I am comfy enough with wife's pay and my little pension. If it is a cesspool that I cannot have fun with--I'll do something else for fun:))

Life is too damned short not to be having the time of your life!

Joe M
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 18:45:27 (ZULU)

The Weaver scope issue is resolved. He was innocent.

"...but the lessons just go on and on."

CDC'
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 19:09:02 (ZULU)

CDC- ain't nobody innocent. Not guilty? Maybe.

I spent several years doing legal research for a thesis I was writing way back when. I came to pretty much the same conclusion as the majority of the appeals court.

"The right to bear arms exists but it is not without limitations, as the right to free speech is not the right to incite to riot; that this right is dependent, to a degree, upon the concept of the people's function as the reserve militia ; that this militia is neither the National Guard nor the Army Reserve and that the Second Ammendment has not been held applicable to the states through the Fourteenth Ammendment."

Predictions: if you thought judicial appointment hearings were messy, you ain't seen nothing yet. Also, look for attempts to rewrite the Militia Act and use the language about militias being enrolled, drilled and proficient as grounds for some kinda standards.

WR Moore
Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 19:58:46 (ZULU)

'Lito,

<<<"Dear Austrian type persons.

I am in receipt of the barrels you sent to me, stating that they are very poor quality and don't shoot well.

I have examined said barrels and have to agree with you. They are very poor barrels, and should have never been sold. To sell barrels like these is an insult to the shooting industry.

Thank you for returning these inferior examples of the barrel makers craft.

I have instructed my staff to destroy these pieces of the worst examples of barrel making I have ever seen.>>>

See my letter would go like this(and Geoff is away, times like tis I get to call a spade a spade, haha):

Kiss my ass, they ain't Border barrels..

Go suck a Nazi or whatever it is you Austrians do.

By the way, I'm charging you double for wasting my time plus shipping to return these pieces of shit back to your facility.

Sincerely,

Quit breeding with your sisters..

That's what I'd like to say...But most likely I will say, if they respnd in kind:

Dear Andy,

The barrels in question were not manufactured by Border Barrels Ltd, therefore, if it is the case you would like to continue to pursue the cause of the apparent inaccuracy of said barrels, we will charge you accordingly. Said barrels will not be and are not warranted by Border Barrels, as we were not the prinicipal manufacturer. If you would like to order an replacement for the 'dud' barrels, we would be happy to do so, and under your dealer discount, but not as a one and one replacement.

Thank you for your time..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 20:24:25 (ZULU)

Hi Folks,

I had a real nice time at the range this morning shooting the Rock.

Shot a nice 1" group at the 100 then scooted on down to the 300 to Shoot a qualifer for the 400 & 600 yard ranges. The winds were gusting to about 10-15 mph and the other guys suggested I not try for the qualifer today.

One nice fellow said shoot my blank paper here to check your windage so you don't ruin one of your qualifer targets.(you have to shoot a 5 shot 2MOA group to qualify). So I Dailed up 5 Moa on the M3LR and shot a spotter on the blank target to check wind. Dailed 1 MOA for the wind and shot a 3.5" group next 5 shots dead center in my qualifer target. Hey I'm in no way braggin or anything like that- but it was fun 2nd time out with less than 2 boxes of shells through this baby. Got a few pats on the back and they stopped shooting so I could get my target to take back and get a card for the 400/600.

One nice fella was pushing 168 grainers with 49.5 grains IMR out a 31" barrel at 2980+. Nice 3/4-1" groups at 300yd with Lapua brass.

Exact same load only with winchester brass opened up his group to 2"+.

Hmm?

The one guy who told me to shoot his blank target for a spotter was also shooting 400 and 600 prone, turns out to be one of the guys who posts a bit on the hide. We plan on shooting 300,400, and 600 next sunday morning together. And after a few practice sessions, we plan on tripping down to the local 1000 yd range. There was also a guy shooting prone at the 400 and 600 with a sweet looking Fifty cal. All in all a good day at the range.

Latrz,

Jerry

JerryC
Cypress, Tx, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 21:39:15 (ZULU)

JR...

>"Quit breeding with your sisters.."<

You crack me up dude...

Joe M...

I'll tell you the problem with your plan, and please don't take this as discouragement.

In order to play in the legal system as a lawyer, you have to be known.

My friend (he's in Boston), got out of school and did "Pro Bono" work for the city, dealing with indigents and welfare, so the local lawyers could see what he was made of. He got repeated complements from the judges, saying:

"Mr. Miller, it is a pleasure to see you before the bench today. Your cases are always so well prepared!"

With this kinds stuff, others got to know him and refer "small fish" cases that they didn't have time for.

Then he got known by more people, and it escalated... etc.

Without that charging into the system, you can't get those cases to help kids, unless you go to work for the "system", like Social Service... and that's a 10 hour a day, 6 days a week, no "thank you" real JOB (EEK!).

My Boston friend is changing his type of law, cuz his client base really suck, and he wants to work for kidlets, cus he loves kids... so he is volunteering (aka NO MONEY) for 6 to 10 months with a law firm to get to know the ropes, the judges, and who the players are.

You can not just say "I'm a Lawyer", and have people come to you... cuz they want to know your track record (something I learned the hard way, by NOT checking my first lawyer's track record... she had none!!)

ALL the altruistic beliefs I had about the justice system are gone - it's like politics, but the doors are closed, and you have no access and no "right to know". You can't challenge a judge, even when you know he's in the bag.

Take a rainy weekend and rent "The Verdict" with Paul Newman... get a CASE of Cracker Jacks, and a flat of soda, an watch it... over and over and over and over, until you know what you are getting into.

You will NEVER see the definition of "abuse of power" like you will in the legal system.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 22:22:47 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"The Weaver scope issue is resolved. He was innocent."<

Inquiring minds want ot know...

Whahappenin' Dude??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 22:28:09 (ZULU)

There's a great quote out there:

"One useless person is a shame, two is a law firm, three is a Congress."

We need to bring back dueling, so men can settle things amongst themselves with decisive action and without the pervasive influence of equivocating charlatan lawyers, but I repeat myself. It would also cut down on people's fixation with petty trivial crap. Who would be willing to risk death and/or great bodily harm over the stupid shit that currently winds up in court all the damned time? S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 23:15:26 (ZULU)

test

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Sunday, March 11, 2007, at 23:32:38 (ZULU)

Glad to see little has changed around here. Finally got a new computer and Marius got me squared away. Old computer took two 230grain/45acp Gold Dots. They did not penetrate. All is well in the mountains and we hope to see some of you in May.

The Guru has passed but the 1911 still rules!

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Monday, March 12, 2007, at 00:26:27 (ZULU)

Howdy all. Good to see the knowledge is still the best here on this forum. Sold my house and doing some remodel on another to move into. Will have a bit of spare change out of the deal. Well anywho... I might be in the market for a good rifle. Had a chance at a pre64 model 70 in 243 a bit back but passed on it. Any suggestions would be welcome. Just lookin for a good accurate rifle to add to my collection. Lookin for something that is versitle. 100 to 1000 yards.

Good news on the DC hand gun issue. Can't believe the Fed court sided with the 2nd amendment.

zane

Zane
Monday, March 12, 2007, at 00:35:50 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with Weaver's spotting scopes? A fellow I met at the club was trying to steer me towards the ETX series, specifically the "73x 125mm" model. He tried to describe it as a money saving alternative to the B&L Elite ED 20-60x 80mm my buddy has. It has been my experience that with optics, you get what you pay for (but I could be wrong and I am open to being proven wrong). I have used the B&L extensively but have never even seen a Weaver spotting scope. Sorry I can't afford the Zeiss...but I am open to the Nikon Fieldscope ED ...close enough to the B&L in price ...but again no experience with Nikon either.

Gerry
Monday, March 12, 2007, at 00:55:49 (ZULU)

I think that, if it hurls a projectile, has sights and a trigger then I can hit with it. To test that idea I bought a compound bow, arrows, sights, a release and a target. It is all good stuff. My back yard will make a servicable range.

markwell: Good to have you back. How's the .45-70 working? Weren't you using AO sights and "harder than woodpecker lips" cast bullets? Planning on doing any ground hog hunting with your little Ruger .223 this year?

CDC'
Monday, March 12, 2007, at 03:23:59 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

You have snail mail inbound.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, March 12, 2007, at 14:19:16 (ZULU)

Gerry...

Weaver ETX spotting scopes.

You can not do better (sorta, kinda!!).

The scope is actually made by Meade Optical, which is a astronomical telescope maker of outstanding credentials. Meade bought Weaver, Simmons, and a few other struggling scope makers, in hopes of bringing them back up to speed.

Meade introduced the ETX some years ago, as a light weight star telescope. There is also an automatic star tracking version.

I have one of the ETXs and they are great. Keep in mind that they are not as tough in the field - they ARE telescopes, not tough spotting scopes. They WILL spot fine, but are not intended to be humped all over the place. They are fragile.

also... because they are mirror telescopes, the objective is larger than an equal scope with conventional lenses. And the larger the objective, the more mirage you get... so these can be a booger on sunny days.

The 125mm (FIVE INCH LENS) scope is TRUELY a monster, and a star scope, and worthless as a spotter. When the sun is up, you won't be able to see 30 cal holes at 100 yds. But when the sun goes down, you will be able to see the rings of Saturn ;)

As to getting what you pay for, here's the problem... both are excellent, and state of the art, FOR THEIR ART!!

The B&L 80mm Elite is made of ED glass, which is VERY expensive, plus the internal focus mechanisms are complex and expensive to make... plus the body is tough and water proof (or very resistant). It is a tough sucka!

On the other side is that telescope mirrors are not expensive to make, the focusing mechanism is kid simple, and the scope is not water proof, but as a telescope, you can not buy better.

They are both top of the line scopes, but designed for very different uses.

Get the B&L.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 12, 2007, at 15:03:26 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)...

I'm still laughing - that was great!

I can't figure out how she stands up, but I sure know why she is leaning against the tree. ;))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 12, 2007, at 17:58:51 (ZULU)

OK gang I'll be OOT until Wednesday night. May or may not have computer access so everyone play nice and don't wreck the bar!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, March 12, 2007, at 19:59:53 (ZULU)

Doc H: Where did you send it? My ako (us.army.mil) has nothing, nor does the new SC account (use that one if you did not already--just click off the roster). I was thinking that maybe you sent it to an old .mil/ unit account overseas somewhere. No comms!

Freakin drywall. Paper tape for pros eh? Takes a knack, eh? Well, I ain't gotta knack, and that is certain. But I do have face masks and sandpaper...jeez, and I thought Iraq was bad for dust!!!!

Palladin contacts me, unsolicited, for a COIN gig overseas--knowing that I was now retired, was a FG officer, and had a certain skill set:((

I thought that background stuff was supposed to be FOUO. DoD or the VA has a leak...unless they spend time here on the DR piecing this stuff together:))

Hmmmmm. Big money.....Naw; the wife would kill me before the BGs got a chance!

joe m
Monday, March 12, 2007, at 20:22:19 (ZULU)

JoeM,

Be happy you don't have..... "The Knack"........ :8-o

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/rmccartney/Misc/?action=view&current=bba4291a.flv

Duman
Monday, March 12, 2007, at 21:18:18 (ZULU)

Patron Mike, glad those stocks finally started shipping, even happier you got one. I started to put my name on one, but the intro price was 6 bills (and that actually was a sizeable discount!) and it scared me back to McMillan. I figured I’d wait it out and see, and you’re far more than suitable to wring it out and determine if it’s worth the dough or not. Please keep us (or at least me) informed!

Morality country? Don’t blame that one on me ;-) I’m a flip-flopper on morality. I’ve never been ‘refined’ enough to play Machiavelli (I can’t look at someone I loathe and with a big grin on my face ask “how are you doing today my old friend?”), barely enough to agree with Rand as much as I do (virtually entirely). Here’s the deal though – when it comes to ‘up against the wall’ time, I’m gonna have to go with Nietzsche. Wouldn’t surprise me if one of these days there’s a light switch flicked, and then things got interesting. The above isn’t bragging, more like noting a deficiency in my personality – I’d love to be able to selectively weasel, speak ‘hyperbole’, misrepresent, ‘facilitate’, scheme and connive my way through things but it’s a step past theoretic nuclear physics for me. Doing good to grasp the concepts but applying them personally to my life is out of my depth. The people I prefer to surround myself with see that as a good thing, and I sooth the nagging in the back of my head with the salve of “but I don’t have the Holy Spirit convicting me of transgressions this way”, but part of me sees it as an inability to adapt to my environment (a social cesspool). We all know what ‘can’t adapt to his environment’ means in Darwinese.

870 versus Mossberg. Year before last (my year of the shotgun) I broke my 870. I asked one of the only guys I still know at Gunsite (and who posts here infrequently) about the breakage and whether I should transition to the Mossy. After a detailed Q&A session, he proclaimed that my 870 failure was the first time he’d ever heard of such a thing, having never witnessed one like it personally. His statement was that the 870 seldom ‘goes down’ in a class, and they keep spare extractors and the odd ejector around for ‘just in case’. The Mossy seemed to have more problems, and wasn’t as robust. Now before someone gives me the statement “but the Mossy won the military contract so it HAS to be good!” I’d remind them (they should remember) that the 870 wasn’t part of that trial, and the Mossy was never evaluated against the 870. On a more personal note, I owned a Mossy, traded it off for a High Standard 22 pistol IIRC. Personally, I’ll stick with the 870, and throw in a gratuitous advertisement for my Almost Famous Uncle Hans at Vang Comp. He’ll do your 870 up better than right.

Education Country: the kittywhacker put it best. What my kid learns, he learns from me (mostly). Good example: when he was doing a ‘presidents day’ thing a few years ago, I filled him in on the worst president in history, and why lies are lies. Now (fourth grade) he’s reading Cleon Scousen’s The Making of America. I got two (more) copies of it, one for him and one to loan out. Sure, he’s got questions, but questions can be answered. We call it the Socratic Method. He’s doing simple algebra and I’ve been pressing dimensional analysis for a year or so now. This is weekly or more often stuff.

At this point, his life achievements have outperformed easily 90% of his peers, and he’s far more traveled and well read than those 90% as well. Not just because of excessively bright DNA (HA!) but because I’m not the typical parent of this area saying ‘the goobermint will educate and raise my kid for me’. Being in my home, he’d recognize Wagner’s Gotterdammerung (Wagner, now THERE is music that says to me “Today is a good day. A very good day... to ransack Poland, and heck, maybe even Czechoslovakia.”) and be able to tell you it sure isn’t Pavarotti, any more than Jimmy Buffett is AC/DC. But why do I push him so hard? Because I can SEE that things have changed. Much of it I blame on this state, simply stating that where he’s at now in school (but Dad, I make As in everything) would easily be a year behind in other areas of the country. At least that’s how I remembered it.

And the upper levels don’t get any better. One pretty recent grad PhD I know had no concept of simple civics or memory of main concepts enumerated in the Constitution. I label his alma mater a trade school; obviously no matter how well educated in a single field, he’s not well rounded. This isn’t anything new however. I recall The Jefe telling me what was expected of college students ‘back then’ in the PRK, and it was far broader than I’d gotten. And mine was, from what I can tell, very well rounded.

Fahrenheit 451? Last week an idiot wanted me to make sure something didn’t accidentally get hot enough to ignite paper. It got to about 160F tops, so I said it couldn’t possibly ignite paper. How do you know, did you look up the flammability or something? Dude, you’re obviously not up on your classics – anyone well read knows that paper burns at 451 degrees Fahrenheit. Duh.

Tooting my own horn? No. Just saying that we can point our fingers at here, there, and yonder all we want, but when it comes to the education of OUR offspring, WE must take responsibility. FULL responsibility. “When you point your finger ‘cause your plan fell through you’ve got three more fingers pointing back at you” – Mark Knopfler.

Now for the hard part... I’ve got a personal understanding with my kiddo that if he’s honorable in standing up for himself, if he’s righteous, then I’ll protect him 100%. If he’s not, then he’s got to take what the school gives him, and then another dose from me when he gets home. Some teachers LOVE that, some HATE it. In general he works well in those guidelines though.

The teachers that love it are ‘freed’ by my insistence that if he doesn’t disrupt the class, and they don’t rectify the situation, he’s free to settle things on his own accord (the last time a kid significantly bigger, and more stupid than average, got put in a head lock and ‘mussed up a bit’) if they need settling. The teacher made a comment about how the big kid wouldn’t learn (to leave my kiddo alone) to which I replied, “After he got done crying, did he mess with him again?” well, no. “Seems there was some education then”. That said in front of the teacher and my boy both, I think he grew an inch or two right then.

The ones that hate it are the socialists. The ‘it’s never right to hit another person’ or ‘violence doesn’t solve anything’ group. To those teachers, my son explains to them “you know how upset my Dad gets with me when you tell him I didn’t do my homework. He says that since you won’t let me defend myself, that means you have taken the responsibility to defend me. How upset with you do you think my Dad will be when I tell him you’re making me be a punching bag for someone that you can’t control? Real hammer of Thor stuff here”. So far, only happened once. Real hammer of Thor stuff, in front of him, so he KNEW what the line was.

I’ve given him the green-light to defend himself intellectually as well. When someone (teacher, student, doesn’t matter) says something he knows to be blatantly wrong, he can feel free to correct that person, but that he needs to have a proper citation when he does. So far that hasn’t caused hard feelings, but I know the time is coming when it will. I’m looking forward to it.

I might not get the ‘father of the year’ award, but I won’t be party to the emasculation of the American Male either. Anyone wanting to ‘socialize’ my little man will have his or her hands full. I can hardly wait ‘till he’s old enough to go through Rand with full comprehension. This last year you’d have thought I’d told him there was no Santa, the way he reacted at Gunsite, when it finally sunk in that he wasn’t going to stay and go through the course with me.

On a personal note, the arts have done me very well. In high school I earned my way into the bi-state UIL orchestra, which got me into the symphony orchestra of a large Texas city my senior year. The other seniors in my class were worried about their short, local senior trip - I toured the UK with the symphony orchestra, a little hottie violinist on my arm. This was nothing unexpected of the son of a concert pianist. Doesn’t mean much? Says you.

Now how about some discussion on bullet fragmentation in regards to terminal efficiency – that’s something I’d like to learn. And which store has the best prices on Varget and Benchmark? Wideners doesn’t have as much as I’m gonna buy, and my fallback is Graf & Sons (HAZMAT charges, but free shipping and 5% off). Is there anywhere better?

Patron Yote Bait, stay outta them places! Don’tcha know that sick people hang out there?

Bravo
Monday, March 12, 2007, at 21:59:16 (ZULU)

Regarding the shotgun question. As I said I'm leaning towards the 870's. I didn't mention before I got a limit of about 800 bucks to spend. I know there are many fine makers of shotguns, but 800 is the ceiling at this point. Sure I'd love to have a high end Benelli, but...

Haven't got a chance to check them out yet. Five days ago I merely turned my 53 year old body sightly to the left, felt a little something give, next day I could barely move. Became unbearable as of yesterday, I swear I couldn't even fart it was that bad, went to the emergency room, got some muscle relaxers that helped out considerably. Just got back from the chiropracter, he said I locked up my "sacro-illiac". He said doing that will drop you right to the ground. I said thats exactly what happened quite a few times. About 4 times just walking up to the hospital entrance.

Just had to share that, I know many here can relate.

So in a couple days I'm going for the shotgun. If there are any other suggestions regarding the $800 limit I'm open to the good information that can always be had here.

Thanks guys

Doug

doug sickels
Monday, March 12, 2007, at 22:58:29 (ZULU)

I usually buy powder from Powder Valley, they're prices seem to be fairly good. I will occasionaly find milsurp IMR4895 by the case for $8-10/lb.

For most current military small arms calibers to be effective within a reasonable timeframe, they must fragment. Thus the problems with current 5.56 and short barrels. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Monday, March 12, 2007, at 22:59:20 (ZULU)

5.56 critical velocity:

Even Wikipedia knows about the velocity floor :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO

The 5.56 × 45 mm NATO cartridge with the standard military ball bullet (NATO: SS109; U.S.: M855) will penetrate approximately 15 to 20 inches (380 to 500 mm) into soft tissue in ideal circumstances. As with all spitzer shaped projectiles it is prone to yaw in soft tissue. However, at impact velocities above roughly 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s), it will yaw and then fragment at the cannelure (the groove around the cylinder of the bullet). The fragments disperse through the flesh causing much more internal injury. The effectiveness of fragmentation seems to impart much greater damage to tissue than bullet dimensions and velocities would suggest. This fragmentation effect is highly dependent on velocity, and therefore barrel length: short-barreled rifles generate less muzzle velocity and therefore rounds lose effectiveness at much shorter ranges than longer-barreled rifles.

The word is finally getting out...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 00:23:07 (ZULU)

Bravo: Musicians are uniformly excellent shots. If someone can play a, oh, clarinet, he'll have little trouble with learning to shoot anything in the gun safe.

I agree with you. Show me a well educated kid and I'll show you one or more involved parents. THE PARENT is responsible for a child's education. Some schools help. Some don't. Check out "The Teaching Company". The very top instructors in the country make DVD's for them. If you wait for a sale the courses are too cheap not to buy. The algebra course produced with an instructor from Georgetown is typical and it is excellent. Click my name.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 02:40:01 (ZULU)

'lito

Thanks for your insight into the spotters. Looks like it's going to be the B&L!

Gerry
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 04:47:17 (ZULU)

Bravo & other hawgs,

RE: Bullet fragmentation.

Here's an interesting experiment for terminal effectiveness:

1. Set up a can -- any kind -- full of water at 50ft to 50yds.

2. Shoot the can with your rifle.

Observed results:

a. for 22LR, .30-30, or others of that ilk: bullet will penetrate the can, i.e. there will be an entrance and an exit hole in a relatively intact can.

b. for .270, or other "high velocity" rounds: there will be an entrance hole, but no exit hole -- the can will be split open.

Don't know exactly what makes the difference, whether it's velocity, energy, fragmentation, or what. To make the experiment more dramatic for the high velocity shot, use a condensed milk can or other can with a relatively closed top (doesn't have to be with a lid on it, but more dramatic if it does). Haven't tried it with a plastic milk or soda jug with the lid on but will try that next time out to the range.

Along the same line, I've read on some web site that a rifle giving at least 1000ft-lbs of energy at the target distance was needed to bring down a white tailed deer size animal. Someone countered that post with the statement that from his experience, only 800ft-lb was needed.

On another site there was a reference to a "Kill" chart relating animal size versus energy (or something akin to energy). Didn't bookmark the sites so can't give reference.

Just food for thought.

JD Martin
So-Central, WA, US of A - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 07:08:19 (ZULU)

Shooter Solutions?

http://shootersolutions.com/

They have a metal treatment called Moly Fusion - not a regular moly treatment according to the site. The webpage is very poortly written so I am wondering about their claims or the science/test results.

Anyone use this metal treatment in their bore or other gun parts?

BTW - They also have a parkerizing kit. Would like feedback on that too if anyone has tried it.

LTChip
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 07:09:52 (ZULU)

Back from an extended paid tour and thanks to Marius for helping me fix my password and getting it linked to a statesitde account.

Joe, I can feel your dry wall pain. I gave in and let someone who knows what they're doing and let them finish my project... drywall sucks.

Not really the place to talk about it, but I'm playing withe the 6.8spc. I know I've heard its dead, but there is still interest in some development. The round itself is incredible out of an AR/M16 platform we've been able to get 2600fps out of an 18" barrel. Accuracy is right with the 77gr 5.56. The only thing that is a possible fault is ability to feed 100% from ALL magazines, but its coming. Will it replace 5.56 who knows, at one time noone wanted to switch from .30 cal.

On a different note I got some insight into a deal for Active Duty Military/LE personnel only. I was shopping for a scope for the 16" barrel rifle that I'm testing and Burris offers a "Active Duty Military/LE personnel only" discount of 55% off of suggested retail. I've heard things bad and indifferent about Burris, but they swear things have changed. I only have purchased Leupold scopes in the past, but since the troubles with them and Premier I've had to reconsider them for what they are. Besides the only way I was able to buy the scopes I have was from getting a deal from Premier. If your interested you can contact Burris through Kimber Jo Thompson at

kjthompson@burrisoptics.com. She'll send you the form you have to fill out and supply the proper ID. I have no connection and haven't even received my scope yet. Just seems like good people and thought someone might be able to benefit from it.

I bought the 3x9x40 fulfield tactical II for 199.00. It lists for 445 or there abouts. I have a 3.5 x 10 VXIII tactical Leupy on the 18" 6.8 SPR. I'll let you know how it compares when it shows up.

One more shameless plug, Mark Larue at Larue Tactical ROCKS!!! Not only did he provide me a Mil/LE discount on his products he also threw in some cool stuff with it. His SPR flatop scope mounts are awesome. I bounced one around for along time before I ordered two of my own and for a <600 yd gun without a need for extra elevation the rule. Tight and repeatable after removing are not even a question.

By the way, Joe if you aren't a drywall guy either bribe one with ammo or hire one and just have a beer that day. It's alot more fun with a better outcome. Fight the battles you know

Out

El Senor
Arlington, WA, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 08:04:13 (ZULU)

Hey Bravo,

Iff'n your interested in a good read on bullet incapacitation try

Duncan MacPherson's book " Bullet Penetration - modeling the dynamics and the incapacitation resulting from wound trauma ". It's a rather dry read ( Duncan is a rocket scientist ) but is very useful. The book mainly deals with handgun velocity stuff but principles do apply across the board...

You may try the firearms tactical site to as there is a wealth of knowledge there to...

Stay sane

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 13:22:56 (ZULU)

870 country- I've done up several on pawnshop guns purchased for under $200 that leaves lots of room for upgrades if $800 is your limit.

CDC-45-70 project continues. Dropped it of at gunsmiths a couple of weeks ago to have Yost-Bonitz solid steel front ramp silver soldered on. The glued on MMC with gold bead popped off. So much for high tech holds nything epoxie. The steel one piece ramp is the some one they used to use on Gunsite shotguns and leverguns when Yost eas in the Gunsmithy. Rear is a Wild West. Have switched to 300gr. Barnes X bullets for the first couple of rounds with the hard lead as follow ups. Have yet to whack anything with it as my .444 is still my favorite. Will eventually bust a pig with 45-70.

Little Ruger lives in truck. Will be groundhog time soon(end of June) Doing ASC in May and then to Montana for varminting for the Month of June.

Have become totally enamored(sp.?) by the 17Mach2 rimfire for small varmints.

nice to be back

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 13:36:36 (ZULU)

I think that J.D.Martin may be talking about the OGW (Optimal Game Weight) formula. Bullet Speed^3 X Weight^2 X 1.5E-12 = Maximum Game Weight for that load. Click my name from the link where I found it.

Lessee,..., 2700fps^3 X 60^2 X 1.5 and move the decimal point is about...hmmm...it says here that my M4 clone with 24.5 of AA2230 and a 60gr Nosler Partition will stop an enraged 106-pounder at point blank distance.

Isn't science wonderful?

Joe M: El Senor has his head on straight about doing your own drywall. It never looks like a haircut you paid for.

870s: Discount places have laminated stock ones for as low as $240. Trade around for a turkey barrel and spend wisely and $800 will do it.

Or just buy mine. Yost built it at Gunsite. It is way tricked out. Hit me offline if you're interested.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 13:56:33 (ZULU)

Joe, the Big P., has some contacts for sure but we have a member here that many think is the one who gave the Big P the old SOTIC Manual. Maybe he gave your name also or they read your retired here. Lets face it you come across very well and many would wnat you to work for them.

On the Lawyer idea. Thats a great idea. Spending many years in the legal system, I say go for it. The Public Defenders or DA will tkae you straight from Law School but pay is not so good. Get your feet wet there and you can go onto private, as you will have a name then.

Or you can switch to non criminal law and make a few more bucks.

Either way. Good luck.

Bravo, will do. So far I really like this stock and no bedding issues.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 14:59:04 (ZULU)

Somebody was looking for information on researching a Sharps rifle?

Well, I happend to run across this letter from Dr. R.L. Moore of Philadelphia, Mississippi. I had him to research the legendary buffalo hunter J.Wright Mooar's rifle. Now, how he had access to that information is very interesting. It seems that someone was having a garage sale (location I don't know) and he bought a trunk full of stuff and in that was records to the Sharps Rifle Co. Since then, he researches rifles with those records for a fee.

Click on my name for an interesting read.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 17:51:10 (ZULU)

"DEBKAfile Exclusive: Al Qaeda-Gaza declares war on both Palestinian rivals: Hamas and Fatah

March 12, 2007, 10:16 PM (GMT+02:00)

As Palestinian and Israeli leaders, Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert finished discussing the Gaza Strip’s fate Sunday, March 11, three events showed how little they and Hamas are in control.

Al Qaeda’s No. 2, Ayman Zawahri issued a declaration of war on the Palestinian Authority and Hamas in a videotape aired by the Arabic TV Al Jazeera.

An hour later, the Islamic Brotherhood of Justice (another name for al Qaeda’s operational branch in the Gaza Strip) announced the launching of its Operation White Land, targeting the political and military leaders of Fatah and Hamas."

Can ya'll believe this stuff? If it wasnt so tragic it would be funny!

Gooch out

Gooch
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 18:49:01 (ZULU)

Sinister,

You still out there? How is the 338 coming along?

Duman
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 19:19:22 (ZULU)

Don't use a shop-vac to clean up after drywall, without the special drywall filter!!!

Ask me how I know ; )

"Kimber" Jo "Thompson"... got wood?

I've been checkin out the specs on the .221 fireball in the reloading rags. Finaly got to see rounds in person side by side to .223, and fell hard. I've got to have a CZ527 in one. Time for a run to the gunstore ; )

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 19:29:18 (ZULU)

Gooch; the best thing about fighting Arabs/Camel Jockies is that they will destroy themselves by killing each other off if you can last long enough. You can read that in the "old Bible" over and over.

Brogers
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 19:39:49 (ZULU)

-308 Winne,has anybody rechambered one in a tight neck chamber is it worth it on a match rifle.

Also has anybody heard the old urban legend that Fred rogers was a Marine sniper?

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 19:48:27 (ZULU)

4i's,

Yep, the 221-Fireball is my favorite cartridge. I use Acurate-1680, with 40-gr. V-Max. I can shoot that all day long. Schweeeeet!

Duman
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 20:02:00 (ZULU)

Sharks no longer exempt lawyers out of professional courtesy. I guess they finally had enough of the unflattering comparisons. Click my name. (grin)

Got myself some help---the free kind---and the drywall ordeal is looking up. Thanks for the tip on the shopvac....man, I can see that problem now!!! Foresight beats hindsight for once. Yes, I was heading down that path to disaster:))

JK: Rephrase the question: How are GAP rifles chambered (Rocks, SCLEs, etc)? Those shoot very well, and the dimensions can be a guide for your project. I have no idea how mine is chambered; but it feeds everything I stick in it (so far haven't jammed lands or hammered bolt handles:))

Ever heard placing one hand in your pocket while playing in the circuit box? Good advice, actually. I am freaked by that megaamp busbar...the last circuit we did, I caught my wife hooking up the neutral on her own...while her other hand held the screwdriver hovering over the bus by microns. Realizing what was possible, I calmly and slowly said "move your left hand out of the box right away..." Holy shit...

CDL deal: Wife graduated the local course last week and is on the road some where between chi-town and ND (someone else's truck--as advised)

Rod R: Got the parcels. They've actually been here--but the wife hid them from me inadvertantly. Inadvertantly my ass; she moves shit around like a carousel. I'se can't nevah find nuttin'! (I spend more time looking for a tool than I spend actually working the projects)

How palladin got my name: Old boy network at work.

Joe M
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 21:02:37 (ZULU)

Speakin' of 870's...

I gots a police top folding stock and police forend available - hit me with an e-mail if you are interested... otherwise, off to ebay!

Jon-K...

(Thought you fell off the edge of the earth - we didn't have anyone to pick on:(

>"308 Winne,has anybody rechambered one in a tight neck chamber is it worth it on a match rifle."<

Go here - standard chamber:

http://www.snipercountry.com/images/Pablito-M24-0.46-target.jpg.

Tight necks suck, and even benchrest guys are moving away from them.

And... "Fred Rogers never served in any branch of the military. He was an ordained minister in the United Presbyterian Church". www.snopes.com

Quatro Ojos...

The .221 FB is a great little rifle cartridge, I have one and love it for small farms.

'lito

(Another wasted day in court - glad I don't have to pay my lawyer by the hour ;)) ...But he get his weight in powder and primers!)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 21:17:51 (ZULU)

Click to see what an engineer with a reloading press can do to a new Blackhawk!

Anyone here going to the Cowboy shoot in Hutchinson, Ks. this weekend? I'd be willing to trade ammo for the use of a pistol caliber rifle. (dunno why my .30-30 won't work)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 21:51:34 (ZULU)

Lito,

no I did not fall off the earth,the last few weeks here in minnesota have been the pits.40+ inches of snow.

Tight necks that is what I thought,the idea of cutting a chamber around a bullet/case just dosent fly with me.

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 22:25:32 (ZULU)

Lito,

"The .221 FB is a great little rifle cartridge, I have one and love it for small farms."

I've got four... 3 in Kimber..... I needz help....

Duman
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 22:41:11 (ZULU)

4i's and Markwell; all in one week. Good to hear from you guys.

Yes, that was my Uncle Fred the minister. I was the sniper, they got me confused with my Uncle. All's quiet in the neighborhood since they figured it out. Nobody moves till after dark. There is some funny stuff on the Internet!

Brogers
Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 22:41:13 (ZULU)

God invented whisky so the Irish wouldn't rule the world..I think my Grandma said that..she was a wise woman..NEVER agree to watch a 6 nations rugby match when Jameson's involved..you end up cussing out Austrians..And they aren't even in it..Nor their sisters..

'Lito,

We have 3 boxes of reamers full of .308's and 7.62 x 51 NATO..But most of the differences are in the throat area, bullet related such as .317" throated for ball and .309" for UK RG ammo, to 0 freebore BR stuff..From my experience, the tight necks on 308 do not pose a greater accuracy attribute, but if you are reusing brass tight'er' necks can help in resizing if the neck diameter (in the chamber)isn't huge. There are limits, but minspec standard match diameter reamers do just fine.

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 23:02:02 (ZULU)

Dewman...

>"I've got four... 3 in Kimber..... I needz help...."<

If you got four, you NEEDS HELP!!!

;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 23:53:32 (ZULU)

Joe M:

A friend's wife did the usual cleanup thing, effectively hiding some paper magazines I had loaned him. They were discovered a few weeks later in plastic grocery bags on hangers in the closet. (Probably under other garments on the same hangers).

Sure can't have anything "just lying around" for very long when wives are on the prowl :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 23:55:19 (ZULU)

Joe M - I've worked most of the common construction trades..never could get the hang of drywall. It is sooooo much easier to just hire a pro and watch.

Misplaced stuff - I simply claimed the basement, threw sawdust all over the staircase and keep the area around the bottom of the stairs real cluttered. Problem mostly solved....still have no idea how to find stuff in the kitchen...it's like an MX missle silo array...stuff moves so often I've given up and just ask.

medicjim
Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 02:17:01 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Shotgun country: 870 is gold standard, but mossbergs, for the money, are a great buy.

I hate to bring up the B word, but Benelli's M-1 super 90s have a lot going for them. I have owned two. Expensive, but rugged and reliable. Except for the one I broke the begeezuz out of. In all do fairness, the previous owner and I had put it though hard use. If you spend a chunk of change to upgrade an 870, a benelli is comparable. If you buy one, spend some time familiazing yourself with it and it controls. My 02.

Pat II
Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 04:00:41 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

I went in the opposite direction. Large room over the garage is mine. My wife comes as far as the landing mid-way up the stairs and stops. She does that maybe two or three times a year. Rest of the time she just calls up from the bottom of the stairs. It's a little cluttered, but it's mine. Well, for now anyway.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 05:07:35 (ZULU)

Well, if this was a race,

I just have to chime in here, about my fiance. My house is my house. I put things where I want them. Upstairs and downstairs. Now, I won't deny that she has added some changes (put things away) and input her feelings (new sheets, for example) but she likes my place the way it is. Except for the fact that she wants to get a new couch. Downstairs, is half bike-shop, and half armory. She rides, and wrenches, and shoots too. She really is perfect.

And she is studying to be a doctor.

I have told her that she can do whatever she wants to the house. I get the basement, and the shop. She is with me most of the time anyways, so either way, it's great. Oh yeah, the bathroom is hers too.

I'm happy. God Bless You All, and Thanks for your service.

Sean

No, she doesn't live with me yet, not till we are married. NO sisters either. I got's extras of them though.

Sean Thomas
Winnipeg, where it's melting fast,, Manitoba, Canada - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 05:43:03 (ZULU)

Shotguns Mossberg, Remington, Benelli, Browning...I've seen them all break. So have a lot of others...just ask some hard use dedicated waterfowlers. As a user group of shotguns (I'm guilty of being one), these guys use/abuse shotguns more than anyone I know...I've seen them used as walking sticks, oars, filled with mud, exposed to saltwater, submerged, dropped...(you get the picture) and no cleaning or real care for days on end when you're out in the field for long weekends. Most common guns that we saw in the field by numbers (figure their owners weigh reliability vs cost) Remington 870's, then it was a toss up between Berettas 390 variants and Browning BPS pumps, Benelli Novas followed by various autoloaders (X2s, Benelli super black eagles, Browning golds, 1100s, and 11-87s).

The first year I was introduced to waterfowling by a friend, we were both working a computer consulting gig in downtown Portland, Oregon. We'd show up for work everyday at 7:00 AM. By 8:00 AM it was clear that we weren't going to get the systems to do our work until late in the day so we'd sneak off Monday through Friday and hunt 25 minutes north of town at a wildlife refuge, Sauvie's Island. We'd hunt during the week until the end of "shoot time" (usually around 16:30) and be back in the office by 5:30, then work until 11:30...go home, clean birds, sleep and get up to do it all over again. On weekends we would go to Astoria and hunt the Lewis and Clark wildlife refuge (funny...they're called refuges) or head up the Columbia River gorge and hunt on the Columbia near Boardman.

My friend who got me hooked on waterfowling explained it like this: When you go big game hunting (bear, cougar, elk, deer) it's a lot like taking your gun for a week long walk. You MIGHT get a chance to shoot once (maybe twice if you're lucky) during the whole week. When you go waterfowling you're always wondering if you brought enough shells. He was right.

Oregon duck season usually runs October- end of January geese aren't done until the end of February. My first year I killed over 300 ducks and about 190 geese (they're incredibly tough birds, saw one get hit by a luck shot at the end of shoot time, fall about 30 yards, bounce when it hit the ground and before the dog could run over and get make the retrieve, it got back up and flew into the no shoot zone a couple of hundred yards away...they earned my respect!) After that I learned not to body shoot geese unless you could be reasonably assured of a head shot, a body shot (3 inch mags, steel shot #2's, BBs or T's...fat boys aren't real recoil sensitive) wouldn't guarantee an immediate kill. Instead I learned to shoot geese off to the side and break a wing then they spiral down...then we would "windmill" them to break their necks after the dog brought them back...a fatal body shot and they just lock their wings and they can glide hundreds of yards out of your reach...also learned how tough "water dogs" really are and how single minded they could be, they never want to quit hunting, even when there are icicles hanging off of their coats...gotta love them chesapeakes (some of the toughest, aggressive too...labs are tough and want to be you best friend. ) It's also a laugh riot to see a first season dog try to retrieve a goose that's not dead yet...dog learns real fast to bite it hard on the head to be sure it's either dead or immobilized so it won't be subject of rapid fire goose pecking, "ouch".

People would ask us what we did with all those birds...we'd freeze the ducks until we had 30-40, then we'd marinate them for a couple of days and throw a party for our friends and grill them just rare. Geese taste kind of bloody, a lot like liver so we used to take them to a meat processor over in Beaver Creek (Shy Ann's meats) and have them make pepperoni or jerky out of them. Everyone prided themselves on shooting mostly big green headed mallards, except me...the novice compared to most of my friends...for me it was always more fun to shoot green winged teal, beautiful "little" birds...and damn hard to hit because they are so fast (easily 45-55 mph) but a great way to learn to shoot shotguns under difficult conditions. (fast moving bird + cold stiff fingers + rain pelting you in the face in a strong wind + 5mm neoprene chest high wader with outer layer of 1000 dernier cordura (otherwise the blackberrys will destroy your waders in a few outings) and to further restrict your movement a shotshell bandoleer (50 rounds) + unsure footing in shallow water or deep mud...and we'd tell ourselves we do it for "fun"...I miss it (smiling).

Sorry...I forgot this is Sniper Country

Gerry
Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 05:58:01 (ZULU)

Gerry: Great post. What waterfowlers do to shotguns shouldn't happen to a dog, and vise versa.

CDC'
Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 11:36:36 (ZULU)

Time is not an absolute. It stretches and shortens in direct proportion to how much you have to get done. Usually the wrong way...I've got 344 days left until retirement eligibility date, and the list of things to accomplish grows. Gotta get the last of what I hope will be quals to make me a commodity, get resume built, renew passport, shots, etc. Joe, you don't want a job, point me in the direction of someone who needs someone with 20+ years police skills and a few old GI ones. I can't take the PC bullshit of this gig anymore, and would like to get paid what I'm worth (and for those of you who know me, I don't want to hear it, keep yer pie holes shut!)for a couple of years. All that, and I still gotta rebuild what the last storm washed away last weekend. Most of my driveway is now in the Guadalupe river, and I have a new streambed in the back yard. Heavy sigh....

Speaking of quals, a group of us are going up to Badlands the first week in may for an unscheduled tactical carbine course. Rich Johnson of Clovis NM SWAT is instructing, and we've got maybe two-three slots left to round it out, if anyone's interested. Just got back from there over the weekend, I'm proud to say that I've just ruined another good war reenactor. He now wants to shoot real bullets! He has this Springfield 1903 two-groovve that he's never shot, so we hauled it up there and flang a few downrange. It's a shooter, 1.5 moa at a hundred, and I managed to dump a few into the 400 yard target with the notch sight. Cleaned about 80 years of copper out of the bore. Wind was almost non-existent, only 9 moa at 1K, so I told him if he could hit at a grand I'd buy him dinner. Damn, that man can eat. Now he's gonna take the Basic course. It's a drug....

Mr. Reifinger, my computer hard drive committed suicide, and I also lost everything in my phone/PDA/rolodex which was attached to it when it did. If you read this, please hit me offline and send me your number....I havent forgotten, I just don't want to drive all the way down without letting you know first.

Another shameless plug....anyone having any discretionary income who's been thinking of the Branson, Mo. area, I'm going to have to sell my timeshare to finance a few things. I'm gonna let it go for somehat less than market to anyone I know, go to www.timesharelifestyles.com, go to find a timeshare, type in 31127 to find a specific unit. Just FYI. It's a good area.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 15:12:39 (ZULU)

Closure on the PPK parts hunt:

These folks says they have the parts for German mfgr Walthers. Earl

says weak recoil springs batter the parts which results in safety

breakage.

http://www.waltherusa.net/

(or click on my name)

Earl's Repair Service, Inc. is a Walther Representative in the U.S.

and is an Importer, Distributor, and Authorized Service and Warranty

Center for Carl Walther products including pistols, rifles, CO2

pistols, spare parts and accessories manufactured in Ulm, Germany.

Earl's Repair Service, Inc.

437R Chandler Street

Tewksbury, MA 01876

Phone 978-851-2656

Fax: 978-851-9462

Earl J. Sheehan, Jr.

President

An order for the safety and recoil spring is in the pipeline for my friend...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 16:41:59 (ZULU)

Gents,

On Mossbergs and 870's: I own and use both. The Mossberg is a 590 I've had for a decade and has NEVER failed to function. Gotta admit it looks sexy with the heat shield and bayonet lug(don't tell Sarah Brady). I did shorten the buttstock about 1 1/2" and it rocks. Went head to head with a Benelli training a couple years back and almost beat the guy. I was shooting magnums and he reduced loads. My 870 is a Scattergun Tech (Pre-Wilson) entry gun with a 14 1/2" barrel. High cool factor and everyone wants to shoot the "little gun". Surefire tac-light forearm helps, too. My only complaint about either is the cheesy plastic thumb safety on the Mossie, but all steel after market replacements are available...Both the Mossie and Remington meet Mil-Spec, too.

Travis, you folks got very lucky with that Ruger blow up. Double charge of the wrong powder? Detonation? Who knows? At least you have a nice wall hanger and a story to tell. On the bright side you still have a cylinder in .45 ACP!

The .221 Fireball is a great cartridge. Have had two...both in XP-100's. Little guy is even better in a light rifle. As a varmint cartridge it's really come into it's own with the advent of good 40 grain bullets. Pink mist time for sage rats!

Sharks and Lawyers: My understanding is the Shark spit the Lawyer back out and he left a bad taste in the Shark's mouth!

Just got a new barrel, in .357 Sig, for my Browning Hi-Power .40. Will let you know how it works and my opinion of the cartridge.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 17:10:29 (ZULU)

Sir Wesley...

>"Detonation"<

Neva, eva say "Detonation" when talking about firearms or their cartridges or propellants (unless you are talking about projectiles containing true explosives).

It is chemically/physically impossible for smokeless propellants to "Detonate".

>"... Shark spit the Lawyer back out and he left a bad taste in the Shark's mouth!"<

A bunch of vultures were found dead of ptomaine poisoning after feeding on a dead lawyer. Actually, the lawyer wasn't dead, he was just serving his client in his normal fashion, "working on the files".

A great philosopher once said "There are no lawyer jokes... they are all true!"

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 17:36:22 (ZULU)

Damn have I been busy. Just got some breathing room here. I put my last class for the week on the road this morning. been a hard and fast two weeks. Finished up with off-road scenarios yeasterday and this morning. Well... the weather was perfect... turned to total crap yeasterday. We shot team movement drills in the mud and recoverd Jeeps out of the muck all day. He He Driving attack senarios in wet Texas cleechy is a trip. Can't believe I get paid to do this sometimes.

Oh yeah.... they had 10" 416s.... no problems at all. Still hate that diopter HK site.

You know I am busy when I haven't hunted something in a month. I think tomorrow Momma and I go looking for a pig.

... Ain't getting in the current shotgun conversation. Last time I brought up shotguns, everybody told me how worthless they all are.

Lindy, did you guys stay above sea level down there. :)

Charles H.... sent that contact info to you

Back to work for a few more hours.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 19:50:40 (ZULU)

'Lito,

<<<Neva, eva say "Detonation" when talking about firearms or their cartridges or propellants (unless you are talking about projectiles containing true explosives).

It is chemically/physically impossible for smokeless propellants to "Detonate".>>

Now if we were talking about good ol' black powder combos, hah..can detonate like a mofo, and even again after initial detonation hah!! Do you recall the UK 'Gunpowder Plot', which the Brits celebrate annually? (for those that don't)This Guy Fawkes character and his fellows loaded up the basement of the Parliament building with many many kegs upon kegs of blackpowder, intending to blow it to smithereens. Well, they got caught so the parliament building still stands..They celebrate the fact it didn't blow up by lighting fireworks, and make bonfires which we place a mannequin 'Guy' on the top to burn to 'death'..

'lito they did a mockup here a few years before I arrived, and I think at some military range..Used the same type and amount of explosive, in a confined space similar to the period building, put up the same building basically..When it went..They said it was like an atomic blast, the sheer force of the pressure wave..I can't remember how far the debris blew, but it was measured in many miles..and they didn't expect that. I believe it was explained as secondary detonation and perhaps another, that the initial blast and confinement caused that particular amount of blackpowder to react in an unfamiliar fashion..I'll have to find some info for you regarding, it was a good story when I heard it..

Smokeless doesn't detonat though..would be bad juju if it did..

JR
podunk, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 20:15:19 (ZULU)

Gents,

'Lito, perhaps "detonation" was a bad choice. Next time I'll just say it went "high order"...

Your point is well taken, however.

'Finger, I'm not telling you a shotgun is worthless...they're not and we both know better.

Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 21:55:42 (ZULU)

Sir Wesley...

>"Next time I'll just say it went "high order"..."<

Nope... that's the same thing. Just say the gun blew up! (which is true).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 22:35:17 (ZULU)

(stirring the pot)

Hey 'Lito, what about secondary explosion effect (SEE) aka Reduced-Charge Detonation in low-density loadings of very slow-burning smokeless powder?

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane2.html

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA6.html

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/Laddertest.htm

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=244858&page=2

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 23:15:33 (ZULU)

rod, JR, and Wesley...

On the odd chance that I will be labeled a pain in the ass (words never before attributed to myself)...

... one of the things that drives me crazy is the constant sloppy use of the English language.

I find this especially rampant in the gun arena... "I was down da range and dis guy's gun detonated, and he had to open da bolt wit a wooden 2x4"

I hear this shit on the net three times a week... and it's always from guys that want to sound like big deals, but wouldn't know Gelignite from 40% Farmers special, or when and why to use 150 grain detcord, instead of 50 grain detcord

When you hear someone talk about "detonation" or secondary explosion effect, or ANY of these terms reguarding guns, don't repeat them (especially here), cuz you will be labeled as "Iggorent".

I did about three pages on this a few years ago, but I don't think the search engine workie anymore.

I've had a shitty day with court shit, so I won't go into it now because I won't do the subject justice, but don't repeat these phrases.

If someone reminds me in a couple of days, I'll spell it out.

But there is NO SECONDARY EXPLOSION EFFECT, NO DETONATION, and NONE OF THE OTHER SHIT!!!

Par' deux will follow.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 23:34:31 (ZULU)

rod, JR, and Wesley...

On the odd chance that I will be labeled a pain in the ass (words never before attributed to myself)...

... one of the things that drives me crazy is the constant sloppy use of the English language.

I find this especially rampant in the gun arena... "I was down da range and dis guy's gun detonated, and he had to open da bolt wit a wooden 2x4"

I hear this garbage on the net three times a week... and it's always from guys that want to sound like big deals, but wouldn't know Gelignite from 20% Farmers special, or when and why to use 150 grain detcord, instead of 50 grain detcord

When you hear someone talk about "detonation" or secondary explosion effect, or ANY of these terms regarding guns, don't repeat them (especially here), cuz you will be labeled as "Iggorent".

I did about three pages on this a few years ago, but I don't think the search engine workie anymore.

I've had a shitty day with court shit, so I won't go into it now because I won't do the subject justice, but don't repeat these phrases.

If someone reminds me in a couple of days, I'll spell it out.

But there is NO SECONDARY EXPLOSION EFFECT, NO DETONATION, and NONE OF THE OTHER SHIT!!!

Par' deux will follow.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 14, 2007, at 23:34:56 (ZULU)

I'm excited

I have $850 bucks burning a hole in my pocket, half a day of work, and Rays sporting goods (the premere gun shop of North Jersey) right down the road from work... and I'm off on Friday

Tomorrow is shotgun day.

Thanks for your input everyone. Nothin like getting another gun

doug sickels
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 00:53:57 (ZULU)

Bloody hell 'lito,

me thinks you almost burst a blood vessel over that post..even double taked it..Secondary detonation was one of them terms that kind of intrigued me, but you can have your say, then I'll be sure to have mine..grumpy ol fart..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 01:31:33 (ZULU)

Detonation, as I know it, is often caused by a shock wave propelled, or is the better word propogated, thru a substance at the speed of sound, or more. In detonation, the entire solid mass burns..It converts to gas immediately..Most explosive of explosive of explosiveness....Bad juju..

This is what was explained to have occurred by non layman during the instance I stated below..If I have to find the records stating such, then I will..sloppy use of the english language my ass..mind the grammar, ha..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 02:49:05 (ZULU)

Cartridge specs;

Can anyone give me the case data for 6mm Lee Navy?

I would really like to get a data drawing if possible.

Thanks!

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 03:00:25 (ZULU)

Lito - There are defintions of the word "detonation" that would align with what happens inside a firearm when you pull the trigger.

medicjim
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 03:21:02 (ZULU)

Jim: I was up until midnight watching the radar, as there was a tornado watch up for a cell in the next county to the west which was tracking right in our direction.

As it crossed the county boundary, which is 8 miles away, they dropped the tornado warning. It got real noisy here, the power cycled off several times as the power lines were hit by lightning, and we got some small hail, but ended up with only 1.3 inches of rain. You got a lot more.

Had a high today of 89 degrees. It's too early for that, but there you go. I hope everything dries out up there pretty quickly.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 03:26:01 (ZULU)

From the dim past, I recall a class in explosives (I usta be a road engineer before I became a Biologist, before I became an administrator before I retire this coming January).... They ain't no "instantaneous" explosions/detonations (see Einstein 101), but there are different shock wave propogation rates due to solid-to-gas conversion with the resultant release of energy (heat)... Black powder is something like under 10,000 fps (like I said, the dim past), dynamite is like 18,000-25,000 fps, TNT is around 30,000 fps and detcord/primacord is a bit over that???? Anyways, everything has a propogation rate, some faster'n others. Smokeless powder is "progressive" in that the more its confined, the faster its propogation (I think)...which is why "blasters" use different explosives to achieve different results, but I don't believe they use progressive propellants to "make little pieces out of big pieces".

I do know that H.P. White labs tried and tried to get the infamous 2.7 g. of Bullseye in a 38Sp. to "detonate" (i.e. "blow the gun up due to excess pressure")....never did it to my recollection.

Now I'll stand back and wait for the lesson in explosives physics from those much more learned than I.

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USofA - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 03:47:59 (ZULU)

Gerry,

Your post made me remember why I enjoyed duck hunting so much in years past. I still remember the sound of wingbeats going overhead in the dark as I waited for shoot time. It's magic to be in the cold marsh as all of the wildlife wakes up and starts to move around.

I just don't have time to do it all anymore and some hobbies have to sit on the back burner for awhile.

I shot what was almost my best day at the Sacramento long range tac match this month. I was just on fire from 600 to 1K and got the wind right every time. I just couldn't make up what I lost by having my head up my ass on the 500 yard line. I dialed my dope for 600 when I thought we were finished at 500. Then I realized we had another string from 500 and I didn't come back down. Put a beautiful 2" group just over the head for a fucking zero. I also missed my cold bore shot on a one moa dot from two hundred after drilling it out in practice for weeks before. Sixty points down the toilet right there and the winner beat me by 54 think. Sucks. He was also shooting a .308 and I always like it when someone does well with that chambering.

Next month I'll cheat and use my .260 across the course high power bolt gun. I put glass on it and shot two consecutive quarter minute groups with it Sunday. Tiny ragged holes in the mid .2's! Shoots 142 SMK's at 2800. I can't wait to see how well it works for me on match day in April.

Don't know if it was mentioned here or not but Mike Miller won the TR Class at the US/Canadian F Class matches out here last week. He was shooting factory Black Hills ammo too I think. Way to go Mike :).

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area , CA, - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 04:45:33 (ZULU)

'lito,

"It is chemically/physically impossible for smokeless propellants to "Detonate"."

Yeah, but some of 'em can burn awfully damn fast. ;-))

I think I'll duck now.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 05:15:56 (ZULU)

Steve: Yer a little fast on burn rates. "det cord" of the military variety burns along at a mere 20-24,000 fps. Powdered Petn is used in this stuff, and that clocks at 23,600 fps (but Petn in a purer form without the pyrocellulose fillers, Pentacrythrite Tetranitrate, speeds right along at 27.2K fps) . Dynamite has many flavors--Ammonia-Gelatin, straight, fixed gelatin, fixed ammonia, and percentages of nitroglycerin per flavor gives each a unique rating---except military stuff--which uses RDX and corn starch for stability--and burns vary from near low explosive to the max. Nitro goes at 25,500fps alone, and that would be the VNE of this stuff (the media will slow that some). Mil sticks poke along at 20,000fps. Ammonium Nitrates come in at 11,000 fps.

Military definitions:

Low explosive: 400 meters per second~1300fps

HE: 1000 meters per second~14000 fps.

"Explosive: Substance which changes violently to a gaseous form through chemical reaction, releasing pressure and heat in all directions." Hmmmm.

RE: relative effectiveness of a given explosive against the standard--which is Trinitro Toluene, aka, TNT. The proverbial "P" in demo equations is "pounds, TNT" required to do a job (job=the other variables in those equations). TNT is 1.0 (obviously) C4 is 1.34, and so on, all explosives are rated against TNT.

Now, I have a manual around here somewhere that has blackpowder and smokeless powder usages, RE data and prep requirements. As I recall, a booster is required for some of these, as well as containment. Much like a cartridge in that regard, only much, much bigger!

Can't detonate?

Really?

Lito: I am curious as to why you would state it so flatly since I once made a neato little bomb with 10 pounds of smokeless (whatever brand lake city used in the old 173 match stuff), stabilized it with kerosene, then topped it with about a half pound of C4 inside a fire extinguisher. If that was not a detonation, then it was one helluva fast fire.

I think that enough pressure will make damn near anything yield some fast burns. I also think ol' Teller thought much the same thing:))

Joe M
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 05:31:55 (ZULU)

"Detonation"?

There's a nice little chapter in Ackley's book, Vol. One, titled "Reduced Loads". Here's the first sentence -

"In this author's opinion there is sufficient evidence that reduced charges of slow burning powders cause detonating effects which warrant concern on the part of the handloader".

OK, so Ackley calls the reaction that causes rifles to blow up on occasion "detonation" but that might be a matter of semantics!

He goes on to quote the 1959 edition of Naval Ordnance, Section 357, where they refer to it as "wave pressure". Ackley also quotes Nils Kvale (of the Norma gunpowder factory) who refers to the same phenomenon with the sentence "As a matter of fact, guns have blown up under conditions for which no other explanation could be found".

So, should we refer to it (the thing that causes firearms to blow up on occasion when using undersized charges of smokeless powder) as a pressure wave effect? Would that be a more accurate term than detonation for what takes place? And why?

No sarcasm implied or intended. I'm just trying to make sense of this as best I can!

In other words - Inquiring minds want to know ;)

ALAN
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 06:27:05 (ZULU)

Hey Ya'll,

This here 'exploding' gun thing is kinda interesting. The way I understand it is that it is essentially a bore obstruction phenomenon.

I've had the phenomenon explained this away, the primer fires and starts the bullet moving and then the powder lights but does not 'come up' to enough pressure to keep the bullet moving the bullet then stops and then becomes an obstruction, powder then comes up to full pressure and something gives. Heck, I'm just a dumb hill billy but that's the best explanation I've heard. I really think no one really knows what happens.

Calvin

Ps iff'n anyones interested take a look at the last pic of that guys black hawk and don't it just look like the cylinder isn't completely finished ie: just a tad tight ?????

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 14:18:45 (ZULU)

Congrats on the F-Troop win, Undude. That's my boy.

CDC'
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 14:25:42 (ZULU)

Calvin,

One theory is that these blow-ups can be caused when a heavily coated slow burning powder is loaded in small charges in large cases, as in an attempt to work up a reduced load in an overbore capacity cartridge. When there is a lot of air space left in the case the powder charge may not start burning all at once causing a gas that ignites and creates a violent wave. Because of the excess space in the cartridge case ignition is not uniform and may propagate another pressure wave created by the remaining unignited portion of the powder charge, and so on. These waves hurl back and forth between the base of the bullet and the base of the cartridge case. When two of these waves come into phase with each other a violent explosion can occur. Some refer to this, rightly or wrongly, as "detonation".

This is not a new theory, in fact it goes back almost fifty years when the Naval Ordnance Dept. was studying it. You're right. Because this occurance is so difficult (if not impossible) to duplicate in the lab no one knows exactly what happens. AFAIK, so far it's all theory and if anybody here has more ideas on the subject please enlighten us because this information that I have just expounded on could be hopelessly out of date. I don't pretend to know anything more about it other than what I've been able to glean through reading over the years.

ALAN
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 16:44:20 (ZULU)

Alan: That effect you described was the most fascinating aspect of demolitions. Effects can be enhanced greatly by tinkering with shape, placement, and propagations---in fact, the enhancements could border on the absurd! Also included was a kind of "accoustics" for bangs---predictions on the wave beyond the destruction mechanism (it is handy to know where to squat in a room with 2-3 pounds of C4 about to make a breach) Much of these kewl techniques beyond simple counterforce charging was/ is classified...I also recall that exposure to this stuff wa like a "second graduation" for us engineers on the teams...ahhh, the good old days:))

No doubt about it....blowing something to hell and gone is mucho fun!!! If you haven't tried it... heheh, well, ingorance can be bliss too, I suppose:))

Joe M
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 17:38:20 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Joe M: Always had to watch the mischevious 18Cs on my teams...and for some reason, all the 18C I had on my teams were mischevious. As a cross training rule, the rule " P for plenty" comes to mine.

MarcS: I know what you mean about the Sacramento match. Years ago when I was shooting the sunday match, I left the dope dialed on from the 1000 yard line from the previous month's match and shot the 200 yard stage. Those rounds went so flippin high it was ridiculous. I really felt stupid. In comparison, leaving 600 yard dope on at the 500 yard line is not so bad. No points, but at least your rounds hit somewhere on the target.

Pat II
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 19:35:38 (ZULU)

Here’s a science experiment for you guys to do at home. Take a piece of wood and put it into a side arm flask, with a stopper in the top (all the gasses have to evolve through the sidearm). Run a piece of tubing from the side arm, into a beaker full of water. Next fill a test tube (the smaller the safer) with water, and invert it into the beaker full of water. If done correctly, you’ll have a column of water above the water line, the tube from the side arm flask right below the mouth of the test tube. The idea is that as gasses evolve from the side arm flask, they’re captured in the test tube. You’ll know the gasses are collected by the fact the water is displaced. OK. Now heat the sidearm flask. Doesn’t matter how (flame won’t touch the wood, only the glass, which will heat the wood by conduction) but you want to heat the wood until you get gasses evolving. Once the test tube is full of evolved gas, strike a match and lift the mouth of the test tube out of the water and touch the match to the mouth of the test tube. What did we learn? A. Wood itself (the cellulose) doesn’t “burn”. B. When heated, wood releases combustible gasses. C. Heat decomposes the wood. D. Ash is the wood, sans volatiles. E. The combustible gasses were volatilized from solid (and some liquid) matter contained in the wood as part of the decomposition. E. Now you know why the flame front on wood is not touching the solid, but hovers above the solid, where there is enough oxygen to support combustion.

Why do this? Because it illustrates the mechanics of progressive powder so well. Progressive powder doesn’t burn! It breaks down, and the flame front ‘feeds’ on the offgassed product. What is the mechanism that liberates nitro groups from powder? Same as the wood – heat. The more the heat and pressure, the more will liberate faster, same as a pressure cooker. The faster the nitro groups are volatilized, the closer to the powder granule the flame front resides – thus the fact that progressive powder is progressive, and the reason granule shape is so important. And like wood ash, the powder fouling is the cellulose left over from incomplete combustion (along with coatings, etc) – everything combustible from the particle has already offgassed and been burned.

And before JR jumps on me about black powder, let me say that he’s completely correct. BUT! Progressive powder and black powder function on two completely different mechanisms – he’s right and I’m right, we’re talking about two separate reactions though.

Now what can we do to force the reaction of a smokeless powder to increase exponentially, to cause the kind of damage we’re looking at? Well, certain rules of thumb in chemistry and physics apply, but in no case can I think of anything that would lend credence to what we’re discussing. Could it be done? Sure. But I can’t see how in the context we’re talking about. We’re not exposing the ammo to temperatures of a few hundred degrees before touching it off, we’re not adding a solvent, changing the particle size or shape, etc. What JR said about instantaneous sublimation certainly holds water, I just can’t imagine the circumstances required to get that happening in the context we’re talking about. Similarly, there would have to be extreme pressures involved to get progressive powder to propagate that fast – if it’s even possible to get it to propagate that fast. Pressures far more than what we’d see in firearms, which goes back to ‘in the context we’re talking about’. In other words, I’m taking the kittywhackers side, ‘cause his position is the only one backed by science. That doesn’t mean I’m not open to “what ifs”.

To address the sticktion (SP?) issue though…. Let’s say that a touch of powder ignites, and somehow extinguishes itself after the bullet has left the casing, but comes to rest in the bore. Now, if somehow the pressure increases, the pressure itself (on the offgassed nitro groups) could spontaneously combust. Re: diesel engines. But here’s the problem….. it’d have to do so at a VERY slow rate. Everyone knows that the casing internal capacity sets up cartridge pressure with a set charge. Well, now the internal capacity includes everything between the primer and the bullet at rest – and that’s a WHOPPING volume. We’ve all set powder on fire when it’s out on the ground (ambient pressure) and watched it burn for several minutes. Without pressure (or very low pressure), progressive powder is SLOW. In short, I don’t buy it.

Now on to more important things (GRIN) like bullet fragmentation!

Ken, what you said makes perfect sense, I wasn’t looking so much at ‘if it should’ as to ‘what degree should it in an ideal case’. Obviously too much fragmentation can be a bad thing in certain cases – specifically I’m thinking of ‘specialty’ pistol rounds that fragment to such a degree that they cause tremendous superficial wounds but lack the penetration to do any serious damage. So none is bad, too much is bad, and some is tremendous. But how much is ideal – and more importantly, why? While I can certainly agree that I’d prefer to use the 55 grain VMAX in the 5.56 (duplicating the Hornady TAP round) as compared to a 62 grain AP bullet, I’m wondering about a happy medium. Something that fragments enough to make a good ‘general purpose’ round, but at the same time holds together hard enough to penetrate some barrier materials. I know…. No magic bullet.

From the literature I’ve read, it seems there’s plenty of similarity in temporary wound cavities between heavily fragmenting and moderately fragmenting bullets. Obviously the bullet that fragments more will have a bigger permanent crush cavity though, but I’m not sure how much this plays into the rapidity of incapacitation. Thus my querries.

On Mark LaRue, I’ll second what has been said already. I may not own the night right this second, but I’ve got a firm lease on the night, with purchase option. Mark is a big part of that solution. The downside is that the carbine gets a might heavy…. If I could come up with a not-so-heavy 20” barrel for the XCR, and the ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel don’t turn out to be hogwash – and the 6.5mm Hornady VMAX bullets work out, I could see going to a medium range carbine-rifle hybrid. I never said that shotguns were useless, I just said that a carbine fits my needs better.

Oh, and on shotguns, I wouldn’t call any of ‘em milspec. I’m quite sure they meet specification by definition, but the ruggedness of design isn’t anything close to the ’14, Garand, FAL, etc. I can’t think of a shotgun out there that wasn’t designed as a ‘sporting arm’, and then reconfigured to fit a military application instead of the vice versa ;-) As such, if I had to choose which to field between a shotgun and a true military designed rifle / carbine, I’d have to be in a rather odd circumstance to opt for the barrel sans rifling.

Moving things around the house country: I don’t have to worry with it, and I like it that way. I couldn’t convince the boy to pick up anything on his own if I wanted to. There’s a Kalashnikov bolt and carrier on the table that need scrubbing, been there for a couple of weeks. They’ll be there until I decide to get to it - with the receiver bent I’m in no hurry.

Patron Mike, good news on the F class stuff! Way to make us proud.

Bravo
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 20:27:20 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I have some black powder fuse encased in a wax paper like tubing that we use in fireworks demos that burns awful damn quick. We called it somethin that escapes me now but I was told by a pyro tech that it creates a gas inside the tube and that is what burns. If you remove the tube/wax paper it burns more like a regular fuse from a firecracker. I wanna say 600 fps or so in the wrapper. It is standard issue on all "B" class fireworks. We would slit the wrap and insert a fuse from each separate shot and use masking tape to secure it. One year I successfully fired 132 ea. 3/4/6/and 8" shells in less than 10 seconds I think. It was over before I could look up!

The good ole days of doin a show with RR flares are long gone I think....

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 20:54:16 (ZULU)

'Lito,

I aplogise for getting riled, but was slightly miffed because apparently I don't know what words mean. Perhaps just basing my viewpoint on a one off conversation with someone whose opinions on such matters I don't distrust, he may have embellished a wee bit, but it made a little bit of sense at the time, and not at the same time... It might have been careless of me not to research before typing away, but not ign'int...

I looked for some stuff relevant:

"According to historian Lady Antonia Fraser, the gunpowder was taken to the Tower of London magazine. It would have been reissued or sold for recycling if in good condition. Ordnance records for the Tower state that 18 hundredweight of it was "decayed". This could imply that it was rendered harmless due to having separated into its component chemical parts, as happens with gunpowder when left to sit for too long – if Fawkes had ignited the gunpowder, during the opening, it would only have resulted in a weak splutter. Alternatively, "decayed" may refer to the powder being damp and sticking together, making it unfit for use in firearms. In this case the explosive capabilities of the barrels would not be greatly affected.

A study on an ITV program presented by Richard Hammond broadcast on 1 November 2005 re-enacted the plot, by blowing up an exact replica of the 17th century House of Lords filled with test dummies, using the exact amount of gunpowder in the underground of the building. The dramatic experiment, conducted on the Advantica Spadeadam test site, proved unambiguously that the explosion would have killed all those attending the State Opening of Parliament in the Lords chamber.

The power of the explosion, which surprised even gunpowder experts, was such that seven-foot deep solid concrete walls (made deliberately to replicate how archives suggest the walls in the old House of Lords were constructed) were reduced to rubble. Measuring devices placed in the chamber to calculate the force of the blast were themselves destroyed by the blast, while the skull of the dummy representing King James, which had been placed on a throne inside the chamber surrounded by courtiers, peers and bishops, was found a large distance away from the site. According to the findings of the program, no-one within 100 metres of the blast would have survived, while all the stained glass windows in Westminster Abbey would have been shattered, as would all windows within a large distance of the Palace. The power of the explosion would have been seen from miles away. Even if only half the gunpowder had gone off, everyone in the House of Lords and its environs would have been killed instantly.

The program also disproved claims that some deterioration in the quality of the gunpowder would have prevented the explosion. A portion of deliberately deteriorated gunpowder, at such a low quality as to make it unusable in firearms, when placed in a heap and detonated, still managed to create a large explosion. The impact of even deteriorated gunpowder would have been magnified by the impact of its compression in wooden barrels, with the compression overcoming any deterioration in the quality of the contents. The compression would have created a cannon effect, with the powder first blowing up from the top of the barrel before, a millisecond later, blowing out. In addition, mathematical calculations showed that Fawkes, who was skilled at the use of gunpowder, had used double the amount of gunpowder needed."

Upon reading this today, I never saw the program, I can see how it may have been represented as detonation. The way I heard it the first time, the powder exploded differently than it should have, and this was explained as detonation of the powder which was unsuitable to burn. Sounds like the instrumentation was damaged in the blast, so the actual shock wave speed could not be measured, but the damage was plain to see..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 22:12:32 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Here's something to think about, from a textbook prepared for use at the U.S. Naval Academy -

" During the small interval of time when the charge is being ignited, there may be produced in the gun, under certain conditions of loading, abnormally high pressures known as wave pressures. These pressures appear to result from hurling back and forth of the gas mass between the breech block and the base of the projectile, and seems to be of the nature of the beast phonomenon, in which two such pressure waves come into phase with each other to create a pressure abnormally high. If wave pressures continue after the projectile has begun to move, they may act on portions of the bore not strong enough to withstand them. Unsymmetrical charges are one cause of wave pressures. With such charges, ignition is not uniform and the charge fails to fill the powder chamber simultaneously in all ita parts with a pressure that is uniform and uniformly increasing. Instead, the portion of the charge first ignited may propagate a pressure wave which may be supplemented an instant later by a similar wave propagated by the portion of the charge next ignited, and so on. Abnormally high pressures may result. Certain French experiments made to determine the effect of unsymmetrical charges showed that when the charge was placed loose in the chamber, the maximum pressure attained was 34 tons per square inch as compared to 14 tons per square inch produced by a symmetrical charge of the same weight. The wave pressures may be avoided by filling the entire powder chamber instantaneously with a burst of flame that will ignite all portions of the charge at the same time. Wave pressures may also be produced if the charge occupies a comparatively small portion of the chamber length and is concentrated at the breech end of the chamber."

Call it detonation or not, I'm not going to debate semantics. This does, however go a long way in explaining how experimenters have blown up perfectly safe firearms when attempting to fire handloads that used a very low charge of slow burning smokeless powder in a large capacity case in an effort to create reduced velocity loadings.

Food for thought, anyway :)

Your quest for the perfect bullet is admirable, but it seems that varying impact velocities get in the way of acheiving ideal performance out of any one bullet. Be sure to let me know when you've found it ;)

ALAN
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 22:13:14 (ZULU)

Bravo: Ok, so slow burn smokeless needs mucho prep (slurried) and odd pressures to do what I said it did. I never said I wasn't cheating...but your point is granted: Under normal firearms' conditions, this stuff is stable to the point of boredom. Catastrophic pressure releases notwithstanding. To get any yield at all--one must do things that cannot fit into a piece of brass.

Bent AK receiver: Heheh. I bet it still functions:))

Pat II: Mischevious? Naaaw! It was never proved that I exceeded shot limits. My paperwork was always able to demonstrate that exceeding the limit was not possible with demo "on-hand." And, as I recall, it was always those weapons guys who started the "what if" games at the demo range:)) Us engineers were a serious lot:)) haw haw haw.

Joe M
Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 22:44:58 (ZULU)

Alan,Bravo and the rest of ya'll,

I'm familiar with the theories of the slow burn stuff ( didn't something like that happen on the Iowa a while back ? ) but what I'm kinda interested in is the relatively new phenomenon ( at least I think it's kinda new ) of the small charge of fast powder in large capacity straight walled pistol cases. I think it's something akin to lighting your smokeless powder pile and then slamming a can on it. I do believe that will cause a 'spike' in pressure. This is probably an intellectual

excercise in futility trying to figure this phenomenon out but what the heck, it's fun and that's what shooting is about for me, anyways.

I've read everything I can get my hands on about this and here are some observations for ya'll to pick apart.

1 tends to mostly happen in 45 lc ( maybe because far more are in use

? )

2 the offending round tends to be the 5th or 6th shot Could it be that the prior shots are some how 'pulverizing' the powder and thus changing the burn rate ? I don't know but that sounds plausible.

3 biggest thing ( problem? ) is folks trying to make something do something it was never designed to do...

Just some thoughts for ya'll to ponder.

Calvin
e-burg, md, U.S.A - Thursday, March 15, 2007, at 23:25:21 (ZULU)

Boooom Country :-)

I suspect some of what Joe is talking about are practical examples of the Munroe Effect.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/bullets2-shaped-charge.htm

Quote of the day:

"In early 1997, Lawrence Livermore successfully tested a shaped charge that penetrated 3.4 meters of high-strength armor steel. The largest diameter precision shaped charge ever built produced a jet of molybdenum that traveled several meters through the air before making its way through successive blocks of steel."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, March 16, 2007, at 01:21:43 (ZULU)

Not to keep on too long on the subject, but the situations describing "secondary ignition of gasses" that make guns "kaboom" sounds a lot like a fuel-air bomb scenario??

Now, on to another topic? I just purchased a Red Rock Arms (aka Bobcat weapons) aluminum receiver FAL in 223....after reading their testing (compared to the Williams aluminum FALs in 308...no bueno!). Mostly 'cuz it just fits me so good. more gooder'n a '16, but... My eyes anymore demand glass sights, soooo... any recommendations on "dust cover replacement" scope mounting systems? I know Tapco makes one and ARMS too...for 'bout 40% more $$ than the Tapco. AND, just for flavor, anyone know of any aftermarket "more betterer" triggers? (factory trigger has to be 10-12#...something less than half that is certainly managable) According to RRA, all the parts are metric FAL save the barrel and lower receiver magwell, so things like dustcovers and triggers and other furniture are interchangable.

Erin go Bragh from Butte!!!

SteveinButte
Butte, Montaaaana, USA - Friday, March 16, 2007, at 01:58:14 (ZULU)

SteveinButte....I don't have any experience with these, but Falcon Arms is advertising a spring set to reduce metric FAL trigger pull...less than 15 bucks. They don't mention amount of reduction.

http://www.falconarms.com/xcartNEW/product.php?productid=252&cat=0&bestseller

Gerry
Friday, March 16, 2007, at 03:09:37 (ZULU)

Calvin,

Pertaining to the effects of light charges of fast powder in straight walled handgun cases -

I hardly ever read the newstand gun rags, but I just happened to pick up the April 2007 issue of Shooting Times so I could have a look at their article on loading for the 6.5-284. Nothing new there, but there's an interesting little article inside by Ken Oehler titled Powder Position Affects Ballistics. A decent read for a glossy gunrag, it sheds some light on the subject, featuring light loads of Unique fired in .38 Special cases at various positions.

If you haven't already seen it, the article might prove interesting to you.

ALAN
Friday, March 16, 2007, at 04:27:07 (ZULU)

Jody check http://www.reloadersnest.com/

for carteridge specs.

"The .221 FB is a great little rifle cartridge, I have one and love it for small farms."

Thats where I live, and they built a new subdivision a quarter mile down the road. So now noise is starting to be an issue. I may have a suppresser or two in my future.

I wanted something for varmits out to two hundred or so, the .223 everyone had, the .204 just didn't float my boat, and the .221 just looked "cute" for lack of a better term. And if push comes to shove, I can always form brass from .223. Plus maybee I can talk Yote-Bait into taking me Prairie dog shooting for the first time, if we can both endure the trip : )

I came from a family where no-one duck hunted, so I was 30 before I ever went. It felt like being introduced to an old friend. The titanium inserts in my spine make damn good barometers and a good day for duck hunting is a bad day for pain, so I can't enjoy it anymore. Sold my boat Monday. The wife's Chessie is pouting.

I used to think labs could swim, before we got her, she has a whole nother "gear" to use when a bird hits the water. We found here through a breed rescue organisation, she had 1/3 of her coat gone and raw meat for skin in its place due to red mange. Nine months of treatment and $300 in medicines later she started to grow hair back. I figured due to scarring she would never have a full coat. Boy was I wrong ; )

I highly recomend the breed rescue route to getting a dog. Where else can you get a dog with 12 field champs in the immidiate family for free. Plus the dogs seem to know and appreciate the second chance.

Thanks for the advice guys.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Friday, March 16, 2007, at 07:12:55 (ZULU)

Thanks Guys for kind words on match. I really give credit to the guys who made the scope, rifle and ammo.

Details

Rifle

GA Precision built Rem 700 SA. Set up as cross course and Palma rifle. Clip slotted action. Badger base and rings. 28" 1x11.25 5r bbl flutted.

Mc Millan Prone fully adjustable stock. Very nice shootng off bipod bag combo. Quality like all McMillans. The best!

NXS 8-32 scope with the new 1moa reticle. I am in love with this scope. I used a 5.5-22 NXS in last years Nationals and decided a little more power would be nice for the .50 MOA X Ring at 1000 yards. The scope adjusts perfectly and glass is as good as a top end spotting scope. I left my spotting scope in truck as I did not need it with this scope.

Ammo was a combo of Black Hills 175 and hand loaded 155 Scenar. I wanted to see which I would prefer to use in the upcoming Nationals so I shared duty with the two. I will use Black Hills in the nationals. It shot that well.

Not one high or low round all week. The ammo was stable as hell. I blew a few winds calls but the ammo was never at fault. Pretty damm good when factory ammo will hold a 1 moa 10 ring at 1000 yards!

Back to USMC Slings!

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Friday, March 16, 2007, at 16:40:39 (ZULU)

John, as I said, black powder reacts via a different mechanism. As you noted, the burn rate of black powder is significantly different in atmospheric conditions ;-)

Explosions in soil: the company I work for had a plant some years ago that ‘went’. When it started fire, a reporter was over a mile away on a hill overlooking the plant, filming. When the place ‘went’, you could see the ground rolling (wave) out to him, and the camera going wild as he was knocked off his feet. Windows were shattered literally miles away. That video is often shown here as a ‘don’t do that’ example. We still make all those same products, and more, so some of us have licenses from the atfe for just such a purpose. I’ll be the first to admit Patron Joe knows more about this than I do, because he’s had more practical experience than anyone I know. That having been said, I don’t consider myself a newbie to energetic materials – all new projects go through me for approval due to safety concerns.

Alan, I can see the possibility of what you’re talking about – charges specifically placed to get sympathetic harmonics. I just don’t understand how that could apply to the charge in a cartridge case. I’m not saying it can’t be, but I am saying that I can’t imagine how it could possibly be – especially with only one ignition source. Back in my long-gone days, I used to run quite a bit of HBWC bullets through my Python, using low-low charges. I tried the powder position theory myself, pointing the muzzle to the sky and gently bringing down the muzzle (the hammer was already cocked) to fire over the Chrony (this was before I bought the Oehler) and did the same but pointing the revolver at the ground first. In my estimation, the theory was a crock because my results didn’t show it. Later I read somewhere that some powders were more susceptible to this phenomenon than others were, so I’ve chalked it up to ‘I’m right, you (well, people like Oehler, you know what I mean) are right, we’re all right’. I didn’t bother with trying to find a powder that would do it, mine didn’t so I was satisfied – and I know I wasn’t using Unique. I bought a pound of Unique when I first started loading and was so offended by the filth of it, that I never bought another pound. And yes, I believe I’ve still got what’s left of that pound ;-)

On the bullets, I really appreciate the concept of using the 110 VMAX bullets for soft-target usage. I’m just not sure how they’d do in penetrating barriers and such first. The 155 AMAX offers a touch better temporary stretch cavity, about the same penetration to said cavity, and only a bit more total penetration. Fragmentation with the 155 though is significantly less than the 110. After figuring out all this, I came to the conclusion that I wasn’t in a position to make a valid judgement on the matter, as I lacked a firm understanding on the differences in the wounding mechanisms. Thus my question ;-) Just looking for some education! What Patron kittywhacker said about fragmentation effectively making a bigger permanent crush cavity makes perfect sense to me, and I believe it. The natural question then becomes ‘does a bigger permanent crush cavity really mean anything when we’re talking about 7.5 to 8 inches of temporary stretch cavity’?

Patron Joe, yeah, the Kalashnikov still functions with a bent receiver. Except now it wants to malf (not go fully into battery) if it’s hot. Depending on how hot I get it, it’ll malf every 300 to 400 rounds, and that really pisses me off. I’m thinking that a receiver transplant will be somewhere in the future.

Calvin, I can’t speak about the 45 Colt specifically, but I’ve tried to do some research on this in particular. Specifically, the old tale of ‘never tumble loaded rounds because you’ll vibrate the powder into smaller granules and blow something up’. That’s bunk. I vibrated loaded rounds for a full day. Then disassembled a few to inspect the powder – no problem. Then I fired the rest – no problem. Couldn’t tell the difference over the chrono between untumbled and tumbled. If there’s going to be a problem like Alan noted though, I can see the possibility more in larger cases than smaller – 16” versus 45 LC.

Steve and the fuel-air bomb scenario: the fuel is dispersed in the air, then lit. In a cartridge, the powder doesn’t produce a gas that can be lit, until the powder is lit – and with the powder lit, the gas will burn as it evolves. That’s how it works normally ;-) How to partially burn powder but get the nitro groups to evolve is beyond me, as it would apply to cartridge cases anyway. Before buying anything for your FAL, you might want to give it a serious run-through. The baileys (bobcat) are very renowned for building complete and total junk. If you want a good review of their MP5 clone, check out Arizona Response Systems. When that article was written, they called themselves special weapons (speshul wepunz) – they have to change the company name from time to time due to extreme bad press. I laughed pretty hard one day as a guy I know (and don’t particularly like) showed up with one of those MP5 clones. Couldn’t get two rounds off together.

Bravo
Friday, March 16, 2007, at 19:37:52 (ZULU)

4i's Glad to know I'm not the only one to buy a rifle/cartridge combo because the round was "cute"..That's exactly why I bought my first 17Mach2 rifle.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Saturday, March 17, 2007, at 00:57:56 (ZULU)

JoeM, others looking for Winch M70's awhile back:

Early Model 70 target in 308 on gunbroker. Click on my name - or catch this url:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=67986568

Good Morning all...

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Saturday, March 17, 2007, at 12:49:20 (ZULU)

Mikey,

dont get out of sorts, but does free ammo fly better than handloads? I'M JUST CHECKING..and when you went from 22x to 32, well try the 12-42, it surprises the shit out of you again...and you know what, Schmidt is going to 50x on their proposed f class line....imagine that..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Saturday, March 17, 2007, at 21:01:43 (ZULU)

JR, not sure your point but here goes an attempt at an answer.

The Blackhills goes better than most hand loads out there. Certaily if a man goes the BR type loading procedure he may get better groups but this Black Hills has proven it will hang with any loads on a F Class course. This 308 Factory ammo beat BR type 6.5x284s for final score. Is that not enough?

I did not go 12-42 route because of a lack of travel I also want to use this on a 338 Lapua. I did not go the SxB route because it would push my rifle over the weight limit and the SxB sucks for travel also.

Its all about balance. How about you come over to a few matches. Would like to see if your bbls are as good as I have heard.?

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Saturday, March 17, 2007, at 21:36:35 (ZULU)

Mike,

If the BH gear is shooting as well as the handloaded, then go for it,(have used it and is gut stuff) will have to talk to hoffman to see if we can get some here...I hate to hear a guy promoting stuff solely because of a discount, and that wasn't my intention then or now...was just askin

12-42, lack of travel? what calibre are you shooting again? in 6.5 have more than enough....elevation should more than get you there..

Cali's a long way to drag my ass to, but if I get the time...Are you wired up 120v or 240v, hah.....Just wanna make sure which paddles I should bring to revive ya..hah..There are a few guys from Border we are sending back this summer, in August, up to BC...Youse guys should meet...

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Saturday, March 17, 2007, at 22:21:48 (ZULU)

JR, to be perfectly honest I have not met a firearms company that would not give me a discount if I used thier products. I am in the industry and have been for many years. To be clear, I generally I get wholesale since your accusation is I get free. I doubt you would pay full price for a anything either. How much do you pay for bbls? With that said I use what I think is best. No one owns me or my opinions. I am probably alot freer to say what I think than a man who works for a company he does not own.

Just to clarify for F Class shooting this is what I think is best

1. GA Precision Rifles I pay for the rifles just like everyone else does

2. Mc Millan Stocks. This one is a Prone but I prefer the A4 and A5s for field use. I get dealer since I have bene purchasing several stocks a year for 25 years.

3. Badger Rings and bases. I wholeslae

4. Nightforce NXS scopes. I like the 8-32 I pay wholesale (5. Blackhills ammo. I pay wholesale

6. My slings I make them so no charge except materials. I guess I am bought and paid for by my company.

7. Sinclair Bipod that has bene lightened (By the way paid full retail for that) Love it for F Class and would throw in tarsh for field use.

8. Mike Rock bbls.

Now with that said I have been offered many other items for free I dont use. You see I want to win and cant afford free if its not the best. You ever notice I tend to stay with and use same stocks, bbls and builders time after time? It is days like this that make me think not really worth my time to share information on net.

All them parts come out to 17.95lbs, which is just under max F Class TR weight limit

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Saturday, March 17, 2007, at 23:50:30 (ZULU)

Mike,

I am not convicting you of collusion..Again, I was just asking if you were getting free ammo to shoot at these f class matches...I've made this more of a pain in the ass then it should be, and apologise...hahah..My main point is, does the BH shoot 'enough' more betterer than the handloaded ammo that you can simply say, I'll shelve the handloads vs the BH...The game gets that tight that's why I ask questions...gimme numbers..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 00:01:33 (ZULU)

Gents,

Had the pleasure of taking the Long range course at work, we used the Mcmillan 50 and a Remington 700 chambered in 300 winmag. Both rifles are toped with NF 5.5-22 NXS glass with the zero stop feature.

we parallel bore zeroed and Using the Chaytec ABC and CABC programs after which we proceeded to take it out the 800yds right off the bat. We took it out to just shy of 1500 by the end. We were shooting steel e-type and Steel squares a couple feet across.

From the second shooting position I was on target in 1 or 2 rounds which was target Dependant. This was completed using Mk 211 reufus rounds which aren't known for accuaracy.

I am very impressed with the program to the degree that I am seriously thinking about picking one up for both deployment and for my personal use.

The program takes into account where you are shooting IE which parallel 32, 33 and so on, Barrel to target bearing using this data the program tells you what the correction you need to account for in windage for the Coriolis affect.there are also spots to enter wind at muzzle, between you and target and at target.

It is easy to use and once you have parallel bore zero you can just plug and play no matter the enviroment. Obviously if you change bullet weights and or manufacturer there will be a slight change but as long as you stick to one manufacturer you should be good.

I also learned the value of having a Kestrel. The Program requires accurate environmental data and the kestrel provided most if not all of what you needed.

Anyways gents thought I would drop in, hope you are having fun on this Irish of days.

Mourge out

Morgue
SD, CA, - Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 01:56:50 (ZULU)

Bravo, Alan and all the rest of Ya'll,

As far as tumbling pistol/revolver ammo, I've done some experimenting along those lines and I can't see any difference between the tumbled and un-tumbled stuff. Now rifle ammo with IMR powder is a different story.

As to the straight walled pistol case exploding thing... I think it may be something along the lines of seating a muzzle loader projectile off the black powder leading to a 'ringed' barrel ( or worse ). You may want to take a look at Vielle's work from the late 1800's or take a gander at

the 2005 spring edition of the black powder cartridge news. There is an article in there that is the best, most complete bit of info, that I've found in print about this phenomenon.

I quote, "The basic cause of ringing is that a coherent column of high

velocity gas and burning grains of powder with considerable kinetic energy, when hitting the base of a stationary bullet, has to stop and in the process generates a thin ring of very high static pressure under the well-know law regarding the conservation of energy. When this static pressure, which is in the form of a very thin, but very high pressure layer similar to a very thin wad, exceeds the yield strength of the chamber material a ring is formed by each succeeding shot and is not normally noticed until extraction problems occur. " Just a bit of clarification the test were done with smokeless powder ( 10 grains of bullseye under a 249 gr bullet in a 38-55 ).

I believe something along these lines causes the rare catastrophic failure of some handguns...

I did go back and take a hard look at that guys pictures and it looked to me that he may of had a bunch of factors come together at once. The flash hole looked kinda over sized and the chamber looked rather tight ( as if I can really tell from a pic). I'd really like to know how long his cases were... Lesson learned: check your cases, know your gun.

Thanks for ya'lls indulgence in letting me take up so much bandwidth on this matter..

Oh and Bravo... unique is a great powder, while dirty the crud it leaves behind is pretty soft and cleans up easily. It's also ALOT cleaner than it used to be since alliant built it's new plant in radford va. I've never had a gun malfunction because of 'unique' fouling.... fwiw

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 14:10:06 (ZULU)

Morgue...

>"The program takes into account where you are shooting IE which parallel 32, 33 and so on, Barrel to target bearing using this data the program tells you what the correction you need to account for in windage for the Coriolis affect.there are also spots to enter wind at muzzle, between you and target and at target."<

Coriolis and latitude effects at 1500 yds...

I got swamp land in Arizona for sale too...

They forgot the dreaded plague of... Ta-ta - "Spin drift".

Chey-Tac, the company where "Integrity" is the main product.

HA!... Double HA!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 14:15:37 (ZULU)

To compensate for coriolis you just need to cant your scope .005843952 degrees and you'll be fine LOL.

Sorry, inside joke from another board :)

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 15:52:17 (ZULU)

'lito,

Here's a good company slogan -

"Chey-Tac - In Search Of Solutions For Nonexistant Problems"

ALAN
Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 16:18:09 (ZULU)

Marc S: I'm set to "cant" my scopes now...but I have some remaining questions: Since I expect to shoot mostly in the northern hemisphere, should i cant to the right or left? And does it matter that my guns mostly have righthand twisting???? (grin)

Ohhhhh no, I feel a spindrift headache coming on....

Lito: The inputs that program makes for coriellis (if indeed it makes any at all) would be negligable, eh? Sorta like a talisman for luck...which is an effective mental tool. I should know, my sunglasses (smiths) saved my eyes once, and therefore were as important as loaded mags for me. I went thru three pair to get the ones I have currently, going so far as to have DHL deliver a set in Afghanistan. I "had" to have them...for luck.

Joe M
Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 16:52:36 (ZULU)

ALAN...

You did it again!

>" 'lito,

Here's a good company slogan -

"Chey-Tac - In Search Of Solutions For Nonexistent Problems""<

You made me laugh!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 16:57:47 (ZULU)

'lito,

I'm glad. The way it sounds like things have been going lately (court), you needed a good laugh.

Joe M,

"should I cant to the right or left?"

Heck, everybody around here should know the answer to that one -

It all depends on which direction the water circles the bowl when you flush ;))

ALAN
Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 17:18:34 (ZULU)

Spin-Drift, Coriallis-effect.......

Personally, I've always been more interested in the areola effect... as a function of certain environmental conditions. :8-p

Duman
Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 18:29:46 (ZULU)

Duman,

The "areola effect as a function of certain environmental conditions"?

Yes, I've noticed that. Cold conditions definitely have an effect on the areola :))

ALAN
Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 21:16:56 (ZULU)

Looking for .22 rimfire pistol purchase advice...only criteria are reliability and accuracy (not size or aesthetics) (I realize that reliability often improves with rimfires after a few hundred rounds.)

1.) 5.5" (Bull barrel) or 7" (sporter barrel) S&W Model 41

2.) 6" Sig-Hammerli heavy barrel target sighted version of Trailside

3.) CZ Kadet 4.75" barrel (CZ75 in .22 rimfire)

4.) Browning Buck Mark Bullseye Pro-Target (7.25" fluted stainless

bull barrel)

Anyone with experience with these? Please no Rugers...I have shot them but don't care for them. Thanks guys!

Gerry
Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 23:09:49 (ZULU)

Jerry re: rimfire pistols:

Are you planning on shooting any competitive match formats?

I ask because some have barrel length max, which may shape your selection criteria.

If you can - try and shoot an example of each of your draft choices.

Trigger and sights will likely have a bigger effect on accuracy than the last degree of barrel quality in a factory standard production pistol. Your balance and weight preferences can be a factor too.

A longer barrel will give you a longer sight radius. A longer sight radius will make aiming error more apparent, which can make practical accuracy better.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 23:25:13 (ZULU)

Gerry,

I love my S&W Model 41! It came with the 7" bbl. and I later added the 5.5". It needs high velocity ammo to function reliably; but since I normally shoot Winchester Power Points that's not a problem. It will shoot minute of squirrel head all day long if your eyes are young enough! I've put a few rounds thru a Buckmark and the accuracy was fine as far as plinking. Haven't shot one at targets. Seemed to function just fine.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, March 18, 2007, at 23:26:19 (ZULU)

Buckmarks are pretty good. Disassembly if kind of funky. Smith 41 is a standard. You can't go wrong.

The Ruger is a good pistola. True story.

"300" can't be confused with actual history but is still entertaining. For the most part the characters showed the proper attitudes.

CDC'
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 00:16:53 (ZULU)

Didn't see a pig I wanted this weekend. Took my favorite spotter with me. Mrs. got a new tripod with quick change adaptors for the scope and camera. She looks kinda cool sitting in her chair covered in a pancho liner and the scope objective sticking out the front. Guess I am lucky.

Stripped the EOTEC off one of the ARs and put a rail riser and scope on. Wanna shoot some coyotes and bobcats. The 17HMR seemed too small and the 308 too much. Jeff Hoffman told me to try his 50 grain V-max. Has anyone here shot that bullet from a 16" 1 in 9?

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 02:44:26 (ZULU)

Used 50 V max in 14.5" and 20" 1:7, works fine in both. A rough old barrel may grenade them every once in a while, a 1:7 26" shot out space gun had this problem, the new tube never had issues. I have since dedicated a 26" 1:12 twist for this purpose and saved the 1:7 and 1:6.5 twists for exclusively target purposes. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 02:58:30 (ZULU)

Thanks for all the comments on .22 pistols. I used to have a 6" S&W 2206 in stainless steel. One of the newstand rags compared it head to head with a S&W model 41 with 12 different brands of ammo and it actually out shot the model 41 with about 5 out of the 12 brands of ammo. I foolishly let a good friend talk me out of it and have been unhappy with replacements. Rod Reiger, I will try to test out the other guns at the club on ".22 night" most of the guys are willing to let you shoot their pistols...just have to ask. CDC, I know the Ruger's have a good reputation and there are lots of add-ons available (I think Clarks' and Power Custom have nice options) but it's just a subjective thing...they just don't feel comfortable in my hand...even tried the 22/45. I was looking at the SIG-Hammerli because as a brand, they make some nice Olympic and "Free-style" pistols so I was hoping that their plinkers might carry the same pedigree...Looks like I am leaning towards the S&W Model 41. I had the chance to shoot one a while back...truly a MACHINE.

Doc, I'm a bit surprised that you have to shoot high velocity ammo through it though because it is considered a target pistol and most target ammo is standard velocity. For cheap standard velocity ammo I like Winchester's T22. Years ago when I was a freshman at Ohio State, I took a shooting class as a gym class - not very strenuous unless you consider tying yourself up in a shooting jacket (aka strait jacket) with a shooting sling and having your arm go numb while you tried to concentrate on the NRA 50 foot small bore target, strenuous. But a lot of fun...they let us use the ROTC shooting team's castoff equipment. I think I remembered them as being some model of Winchester with peep sights. Anyway, they gave us lots of boxes of T22s to burn up...that stuff is accurate. Thanks again to everyone for their input.

Gerry
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 03:25:23 (ZULU)

Model 52D Winchester had a pile of them and some Anshutzs when I coached at U of Penn in the early 80's.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 03:54:53 (ZULU)

To me the S&W 41 feels perfect. I love the balance of the 5 inch but I get better groups with the 7. I can drill out tens with that pistol. I've never shot a Hammerli but I'm sure their nice. I've no idea what the price differences would be.

Jim do you prefer the 52D over the "C"? I shot smallbore in high school ROTC so my dad bought me a C model. I liked it but not as much as the 40X I chose from the school safe (this was in Shreveport LA of course they don't allow that kind of violence here in Cali schools). I've heard the C's are more desirable but I have no idea why. I didn't shoot mine much and eventually sold it.

The public range in my town is being swamped with goofballs lately. The shit I see going on there can't be described. I'm so distracted by dangerous handling practices or bullshit statements that I can hardly shoot. Had a guy today giving me shit for putting up a pistol target at 25 yards because no pistol was ever designed to shoot that far. He couldn't keep them on a two foot square target backer at 15 yards. I put about four cylinders from my 686 and about as many magazines from my Kimber .45 inside of a 6" bull with not one hole in the white and he shut up. Didn't say anything about how he might have been full of shit, just shut up and left. I need to move out of Cali or start saving for some property out in the hills.

Sorry for the rant.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 05:14:44 (ZULU)

Gerry wrote:

"Doc, I'm a bit surprised that you have to shoot high velocity ammo through it though because it is considered a target pistol and most target ammo is standard velocity."

Maybe I need to clean it!!! It has only had a few thousand rounds thru it! I'm terrible when it comes to cleaning .22's.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 05:21:52 (ZULU)

Doc on .22 pistols:

Yes, clean it!

.22 LR burns filthy. Big negative for reliable function.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 12:45:08 (ZULU)

MarcS

I really don't remember the differences between all the Winchester 52s. I know they had a heavy barrel and appreture sights. They were pretty good but not as adjustable as the Anshutzs.

50 ft smallbore is great for kids. I really enjoyed those days.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 13:03:30 (ZULU)

.22s are great for kids. When my son was 7 and my daughter was 9, I gave him my beloved old Anshutz and her my beautiful Win 52C.

Teddy bears and Barbie dolls come and go.

CDC'
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 13:42:39 (ZULU)

Wife and kid out on vacation, getting a chance to head out to the range sometime this week. Just wondering if any one on the board interested in some range time at Antony Chabot shooting range. It will be either a Thursday or Friday.

Darren...

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 14:15:19 (ZULU)

All kids should have a dog, a 22, and room to roam with them. Sadly, many will never know the joy of it all or benefit from the responsibilities(sp?) instilled.

I don't know who said it, but, "all serious riflemen should own one really good 22 rifle". I'd add the same goes for handgunners.

If One has a Government model pistol, the Marvel conversion unit is worth a look.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WVAll kids need, - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 14:22:13 (ZULU)

markwell (or anybody): What do you know about the Kimber .22 1911?

CDC'
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 14:36:48 (ZULU)

rod,

Yes. .22LR is filthy stuff. The cheaper stuff is really bad. That's why I normally shoot only Winchester or Remington. When a .22 auto comes into my shop the first thing I do is strip and clean it. Quite often that is all it needs.

One of my very first FFL purchases was that S&W 41. When it arrived I cleaned it thoroughly and decided to see how well it shot. Instead of setting up a target I headed for the woods to find a squirrel. DUMB move! Found one sitting on an old log about twenty-five yards away. Rested my hand on a tree and squeezed off a round. He looked around and went back to eating. After all ten rounds and no hits he wandered off! Walked back to the house and set out a target. Discovered that the rear sight was screwed all the way down. ;o( I guess that was done to protect the sight during shipping. Leave it to me to learn things the hard way.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 14:53:48 (ZULU)

Lito,

Not going to dig up the dead horse and whip it. I know most of you have issues with Chaytec and thats your perogotive. I have sat around and listened to the discontent. I don't have a horse in this race, though several gents at work who have shot the .408 have nothing but good things to say. Until I have personal experience with one I am going to sit on the sidelines for THAT fight.

BUT that doesn't change the fact that this is the first time we used the rifles after rescoping them so there was no previous dope to use.

I want to reiterate we haven't shot the yard lines ever with these rifle / scope combo. We chrono'd the guns, found parallel bore zeroed. 1 shot confirmation over 1k, and the next day took it out from 8 hundred to 1500 using ammo that isn't know for holding tight groups.

While they were showing us the program, they explained one of the reasons that this program is effective is that once you have parallel bore zero with the rifle and you know where zero is off the computer, you can go from one extreme to another and as long as you were accurate with the environmentals when you zero'd all you have to do is reenter the information in the computer You don't have to re run yard lines.

If the program JUST dealt with spin drift why would it need to know which parallel you are are near?

I thought you might be interested in something other than hearsay. If that isnt the case and all you want to do is revisit old arguments that would be your right, but I am not going to sit here and argue.

On a different note if you haven't got out to see 300 it is well worth seeing in a theater.

Mourge out

Morgue
Sd, Ca, - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 16:00:46 (ZULU)

CDC I don"t own a Kimber 1911 22 (Rimfire Target Model)...I do however have one in Hornady's .17Mach2(cutest little cartridge ever IMHO)..Aluminum frame and steel slide(to slow down recoil impulse, I guess, as .22s have Alu. slides) Shot this gun all summer, 2006, while varminting and traveling putting at least a couple of thousand rounds through it. Other than one glitch after a cleaning, it ran flawlessly(even coated in prairie dust for weeks at a time); it shoots flat, is deadly accurate, and kills prairie dogs and gophers quite well. Folks I know who have the .22 also love this model and report pretty much the same reliability. If I didn't have a couple of Colt conversions, I'd probably try a Kimber in.22LR. I like my 1911 Mach 2 so much I sent it to Wilsons last fall and had the frame checkered 30lpi and green armor tough finish applied to the frame. As much as I hate them, I've kept Kimber's rubber grips on the gun as they help to keep it from sliding around on the truck dash. Kimber has discontinued the Mach2 1911 by the way. They say it's because of ammo inconsistancies; Both CCI and the ATK folks at SHOT said they,ve changed nothing with the load. Guy in the Kimber custom shop told me they had a lot of Eley that wouldn't run the guns at all. Go figure. I have 5 cases+ of CCI stashed for the 1911 and two rifles I have in this cartridge, all the same lot, and it runs my 1911 just fine.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 16:15:06 (ZULU)

Morgue,

As you said its only as accurte as the data you load into it. My question is how do you know the wind at the target 1500yds away or for that matter at the halfway point???

I am not sure I understood what the program actually does. Does it make it so you can zero you gun quicker?? Or just give you data for your comeups and windage at range???

I can run a new rifle across a cronograph and punch in a few facts into JBM program and it will put me on target at most any range I shoot to. It will also give me pretty damn accurate wind dials for given winds.

Not knocking your program, just asking what it does over another balistics program?? Thanks!!!

Pat
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 17:26:40 (ZULU)

Morgue...

Will you please define "... found parallel bore zeroed".

And what does, "... once you have parallel bore zero with the rifle and you know where zero is off the computer", mean???

I have never heard that phrase before.

Is it a propriety, copyrighted Chey-Tac phrase??

Can you have "parallel bore zero" with other cartridges, or only with the 408 Chey-Tac??

Inquiring minds want to know...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 18:08:40 (ZULU)

Not to change the subject, as I enjoy seeing myths and half-truths FROM OUR FAVORITE COMPANY get debunked....but anyone have any experience with the Sightron line of optics?

Is their warranty so good (complete replacement)because they know it will be needed? Are the Jap lenses of the same quality as Nikon, Pentax or Leupold?

EDITED to add "FROM OUR FAVORITE COMPANY" so no one would interpret it as being directed at a fellow member of the Roaster, when it was not.

Les
Snowdrift, CT, USofA by God - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 18:14:09 (ZULU)

Les...

They are supposed to be good scopes. They rate high in the BR circles.

They use a tracking system that is similar to the Weaver "Acutrack" system.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 18:23:09 (ZULU)

'lito,

Just an unedjumicated guess, but does the "parallel bore zero" have to do with some kind of adjustment their program makes to compensate for the curvature of the earth at the location where the rifle is being fired?

I'd ask Dr. Gerald Bull, but he be dead. The Mossad took care of his ballistics research - permanently ;)

ALAN
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 18:24:55 (ZULU)

ALAN...

You booger, you made me laugh AGAIN!!

I saw that movie about Gerry Bull, very cool movie.

Speakin' of which, Ruggus Rattus and I went to see "Wild Hogs" yesterday.

We started laughin' at the intro titles and didn't quit laughin' 'til we got home - it's a friggin' riot!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 18:30:38 (ZULU)

'lito,

Thanks for the heads-up.

I'm planning to see Wild Hogs. I've enjoyed just about everything that William H. Macy has done ever since I saw him in Fargo.

ALAN
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 18:40:57 (ZULU)

'lito,

You discribed it exactly the way I did, started laughing 30secs. into the movie and you don't quit until your walking out.

Bad day at the range yesterday, went to extract a case on my 6XC and pulled part of the bolt face off the bolt that holds the extractor!! Soooooo.... about a 1/3 of my bolt face is missing. Looks like it may have been machined a tad thin at the front of the bolt face.

338 Lapua Mag

I see JSC has the new Remington 338 Lapuas out for $899.95 dealers cost. Could be intresting!!

Pat
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 19:57:38 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)...

Ask Ken Hunter if he is interested in a Remington PSS in .338 Lap ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 21:42:27 (ZULU)

Lito,

Parallel bore zero, what we did was get the 300 win mag on at 300 yds and the 50 cal on at 500 yds. What this accomplishes is that you are able to use the program to zero out from the dope you have at these ranges. Once you have this information, if you have the NF 5.5-22 with the zero stop, you dial down from what the zero would be IE I dropped it 7.75 minutes for one of my rifles . This is now your Parallel bore zero, if you set the zero stop it becomes your mechanical zero as well.

I used the same zero method with my 338 lapmag at 300 and used the NF dope computer.

At this point you can go anywhere (so I was told, haven't had the chance yet to change environments to drastically.) All you have to do is change the information that you plug in to match.

If you zero your rifle at 100 and plug that into the system it isn't going to give you as accurate of data, thus you are most likely to have to re-zero in the new environment before you system is accurate.

Lito, don't want to sound combative though I call it like I see it, did you just jump my shit or read my post? you asked "Can you have "parallel bore zero" with other cartridges, or only with the 408 Chey-Tac??

Inquiring minds want to know..."

in my first post I clearly stated I used the 300 win mag and a 50 cal. So which is it, are you jumping my shit cause I told you I had a good experience with a product from a company you don't like, or did you just miss that part at the beginning of my post?

Pat,

The program has slots for wind data at those three points. It has the option of auto fill if you so desire, so the wind is constant for all three. This is if you are unable to tell exactly but want to guess that it is probably constant to where you are. If you are reading the wind down range, say at a UKD range it gives you the option to plug your data in. This would also be useful if you are shooting on a range with flags at intervals down range.

Les,

Trying to decided whether you are calling me a liar or are just talking out your third point of contact.

Gents, I only posted it because I thought that you might like a run down on the system, also I was told I should by a close friend I respect. I enjoyed the course and am looking forward to the follow on, which is in a completely different environment and so should be able to have a clearer idea about the system.

Mourge out

Morgue
SD, Ca, - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 21:59:32 (ZULU)

edited for brash anger management

Joe M
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 22:17:25 (ZULU)

Joe...

I'm not beatin up on Morgue.

I got issues with the stuff that comes out of Chey-Tac. They have fluff in them that look like big deal sellin points, but are pixie dust.

Pat(HA!) asked what does it do, that other programs don't. I think that's a fair question. He's not beatin up on Hogue.

And I have said "Inquiring minds want to know" to most of the guys here...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 22:37:56 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I don't think that anybody's jumping in anybody else's shit unless it's you!. Some of us have had fun at Chey-Tac's expense in the past, and will continue to do so in the future no matter who's posting about their product. Nobody here called Morgue a liar and nobody has denigrated him, his exploits in the field, or his service to our country. Plain and simple!

I think that you're getting a bit carried away with your name calling. I know that you think that you're just coming to the defense of a friend, but that kind of defense is unnecessary under the circumstances of this exchange of thoughts. No insults to Morgue were intended. Chey-Tac, on the other hand, has continously left itself open to ridicule in the past. Remember the SOTIC tests at Bragg? With a track record like theirs suspicion of anything that they claim is only natural!

If Morgue feels that I've personally insulted him in any way, then he's got my sincere apology. I truly mean that.

I'd like to debate the idea of "parallel bore zeroing" but at this point I will no longer participate because of your venom. Do everyone a favor and lighten up. You're no longer in the military.

ALAN
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 22:48:46 (ZULU)

Well, on a lighter note I finally got my shotgun today. I decided on the Beretta 1201. 12 gauge, matte black, Semi auto, 18.5" barrel. Feels like Christmas. Anyone have experience with this model? I hope I made the right choice.

Thanks

doug sickels
Monday, March 19, 2007, at 23:29:45 (ZULU)

Joe...

On the "parallel bore zero" zero stuff... this is right out of D**n's BS book... he made up fake words for everything in shooting, and Chey_Tac used it to sound like they had something new, when it was the same ol same ol...

No matter what it was... even zeroing a rifle, Chey-Tac made it into a mysterious "secret handshake" kinda thing, and CT has all the flack it gets... coming.

Even ol D**n has turned on CT this past year and on his website, he rips then a new asshole, and says that they are crap and the 50BMG and .338 Lap are better... and he was their "only" true fan.

I'll drop it, just like ALAN, cuz I don't want to ruffle any good guys.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 23:39:52 (ZULU)

On another note...

I sold somfin to a guy here, and asked to be paid by a "money order" so I could cash it at the PO and put it in the "jelly jar" for my 17 FB project.

Well, by mistake, he sent a "Western Union" money order. I think "OK, I'll cash that.

Well, NO-FUCKIN-BODY will cash a Western Union money order... NOT EVEN WESTERN UNION. (??? Hello, is there any intelligent life at Western Union???)

You gots to deposit it like a personal check and wait for it to clear LIKE A PERSONAL CHECK.

I'm not beating up on this guy... he didn't know, and he's gonna replace it.

But for all you guys out there - Don't send WU money orders, and when you sell somfin, make sure you tell the other guys DON'T get a WU money order.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 23:46:35 (ZULU)

Morgue,

I apologize to you, and am concerned that you were offended by my post.

My comments were in no way meant to be directed at you personally, but at the named company/product and their voodoo that has been discussed ad-nauseum and exposed over the years.

The history of the Duty Roster and the Archives tells the long tale.

I have edited my post.

I wanted to ask a question that was off the topic that was currently on the floor of the Roaster at the time, and was trying to attempt a smooth transition and prevent a firestorm that usually ensues when Chez-Tak or D**n M is mentioned.

I apologize for changing the subject, and going tactical non-sequitor.

OK, now I will get sued with 'Lito!

I do not talk out of my third point of contact, unless plates of tamales and many bottles Rolling Rock are consumed!. Which, by the way, is just what I am willing to buy you if you are ever up in my neck of the woods!

Sincere thanks for your dedicated service to our nation.

Some of us have served also (3rd ID here, 22 years ago, damn), and quietly did our duty too. So, I am DEFINATELY in your corner.

Any tool that gives you satisfactory results and confidence, use it.

Maj. Joe, we have come too far to think that a small mis-interpretation and a mis-transmission from an old RTO leg grunt is reason for calling someone out. Those of us who have been here a while (I've been lurking since 1998) take your words as gospel. You have never hid the truth or held back your honesty. I can say, it does not feel good to be in your crosshairs. Please note my white flag.

EDITED to play CYA!

Les
Snowbank, CT, USA - Monday, March 19, 2007, at 23:59:02 (ZULU)

Lito,

its Morgue not hogue ;) and if there is somewhere that I can add to where i have already posted to clearify let me know.

No ruffled feathers here, though I won't stand around quiet while you frag the general area based on seeing the Companies name, which seemed priority at the time

Anytime you are out SD way give me a call and we tilt a couple back...

Alan

I think you took Joe's post a tad bit more personal than was probably intended and responded in kind.

Off hand I don't know the definition for Parallel zero so I tried to explain how we got it. If you want more feel free to ask.

no offense taken,

Mourge out

Morgue
SD, CA, - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 00:16:31 (ZULU)

JR., I understand your in the UK now but the question "Does it shoot as well as hand loads?" was already answered. It shot better than anyones handloads, that week in the TR Class and all but one in the Unlimited F Class of 6.5x284s. Other words only one F Class rifle beat this factory Blackhills 308 stuff. Yes it will hang with hand loads.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 01:19:32 (ZULU)

Doug Sickels...I'm curious, what made your mind up in choosing the Beretta auto loader when most people were steering you towards a pump?

Gerry
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 01:27:45 (ZULU)

Dumb old Dan doesn't GAS whose crosshairs are on him.

Wind input for three points means Shy-Taco's package approximates windage with a quadratic function. That approximation's error alone should render any difference between the coriolis effect at the 41st and 42nd parallels very much beside the point.

No?

Sensitivity analysis on this should be no big deal. If I get a minute, I'll find the equations and check it out.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 01:30:47 (ZULU)

Lito: The parallel bore zero: Aside from the name being a made-for-TV fiction, It has become a "technique" of using intermediate range data/ zero and coming back to a (new or old) preset zero stop at 100---basically, it starts at 300 or beyond, and the conditions enteered are the new baseline. It changes as conditions change, and those folks using it out on the left coast have it as a POI in their course. They are "sold" since they have it working better'er than the old 100yd data moving out to max ranges. They believe that the extra fine tuning at the intermediate range (predicted vs actual bullet paths) provide the kind of baseline data that will work when they go to higher elevation or less humid air.

OK, Morgue, get out yer notes and fix that fiction i just dumped out my fourth point...

Alan: Unsure what my almost-retired status has to do with anything...but my ID card is still indef/ active duty for another 7 weeks or so (I saved an unholy amount of leave over the years, warzones enable more than 90 days to accumulate). Does that change anything? I thought not.

But for my venom: I do apologize. I took the tone of questioning on the cheytac product as an insult on the person bringing it up.

As for crosshairs: None on anyone!

I'd sure hate to get kicked out of my favorite bar for fighting:)) I'm too old for that sorta thing...so, for all who felt the sting of that misplaced diatribe--

I am sorry.

(edited: When I went to post this, my password was mistyped; I thought, "damn, banned aready?")

Joe M
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 02:22:41 (ZULU)

Les: Wow, I tred to be "non-directional" and maybe just put notice of 'who" we were talking about. I guess my attempt to name-no-names had a few names in it anyway. I did not mean that to happen...and I retract that and shall edit it gone.

RTO: Best job I ever had. I learned more off that handset about the infantry than the preceding two years combined! In fact, those skills (CAS, CFF, reporting formats of all stripe) served me much later as an officer. Bracket hell. Give me a spotter and i knew where the tubes would put them! FFE off the first adjustment!

joe m
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 02:34:07 (ZULU)

Belly up to the bar....

State your poison....

I'M BUYIN!

Are there any red hots and pickeled eggs left?

You can never leave a bar that never closes!

Les
Snow keeps fallin', CT, USA - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 02:37:08 (ZULU)

When the Lt is away, the RTO will play. I wonder how many RTOs made command decisions because it was too much hassle to go find some out of pocket junior officer.

All of 'em?

CDC'
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 02:46:03 (ZULU)

I personally did nothing that bad ;) but I did have the pleasure to see some cold, wet and tired 13F guys on the hill (at the tower) in Graf get served a hot meal personally delivered by a 1SG at 0300hrs!

He should not have answered his radio!

I did play CYA for multiple CPT/MAJ/LTC!

You know what happens to really good RTO's, don't you?

They end up drivers for field grades!

But in Maj. Joe's case, they BECOME field grades!

Les
CT, USA - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 03:04:52 (ZULU)

I shouldn't comment on this latest donnybrook, so I won't. Except ...

There are those who are so perceptive here as to the truth and what composes it that my thoughts are not needed since they already read my mind on a regular basis even as confusing/ed as it is.

Actually it is best not to inject any opinion here expecially discussing weapons or theories involving contraversal matters. I have a memory of events that I thought were true but having told them so many times over the years in places like these I'm not sure if they are still true even when I don't change the story. Its best not to experiment or ask the wrong questions, you are bound to insult someone with lies or truths even if you don't know the difference. Maybe you soldiers (expecially Joe and Morgue) you need to go back to the front where it's quieter. This page can be real harrowing.

Brogers
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 03:32:57 (ZULU)

on a lighter note, here is the background to the important court decision that came out of the DC gun rights case.

Surprising balanced reporting for the Post.

PUBLICATION: The Washington Post

DATE: 2007.03.18

SECTION: Asection

PAGE: A01

BYLINE: Paul Duggan

WORD COUNT: 1630

Lawyer Who Wiped Out D.C. Ban Says It's About Liberties, Not Guns

Meet the lawyer who conceived the lawsuit that gutted the District's tough gun-control statute this month. Meet the lawyer who recruited a group of strangers to sue the city and bankrolled their successful litigation out of his own pocket.

Meet Robert A. Levy, staunch defender of the Second Amendment, a wealthy former entrepreneur who said he has never owned a firearm and probably never will.

"I don't actually want a gun," Levy said by phone last week from his residence, a $1.7 million condominium in a Gulf Coast high-rise. "I mean, maybe I'd want a gun if I was living on Capitol Hill. Or in Anacostia somewhere. But I live in Naples, Florida, in a gated community. I don't feel real threatened down here."

He is 65, a District native who left the city 40 years ago for Montgomery County, a self-made millionaire who thinks the government interferes too much with people's liberties. He was an investment analyst before he sold his company for a fortune and enrolled in law school at age 49. Now he's a constitutional fellow with the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington, working in his luxury condo 1,000 miles away.

It was his idea, his project, his philosophical mission to mount a legal challenge to the city's "draconian" gun restrictions, which are among the toughest in the nation. The statute offends his libertarian principles, Levy said. And it is entirely his money behind the lawsuit that led a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit to strike down the statute this month, a ruling that stunned D.C. officials and gun-control advocates. The city said it will appeal the decision.

Levy, who moved to Florida two years ago, explained in an interview why he initiated the case, with Cato's blessing; why he has rejected offers of financial help, insisting on footing the bills himself; how he and a co-counsel searched for and vetted potential plaintiffs, finally settling on a diverse group of six people; and why he thinks letting D.C. residents keep loaded guns in their homes would not make the city a more dangerous place.

"By the way, I'm not a member of any of those pro-gun groups," he said. "I don't travel in those circles. My interest is in vindicating the Constitution."

Before they filed the lawsuit in February 2003, arguing that the city's gun statute violates the Second Amendment's language on the right to bear arms, Levy and Clark M. Neily III, a public-interest lawyer, spent months carefully assembling a cast of plaintiffs, Levy said.

"We wanted gender diversity," he said. "We wanted racial diversity, economic diversity, age diversity." The plaintiffs had to be D.C. residents who believed fervently in gun rights and wanted loaded weapons in their homes for self- defense. And they had to be respectable.

"No Looney Tunes," Levy said. "You know, you don't want the guy who just signed up for the militia. And no criminal records. You want law-abiding citizens."

He and Neily worked the phones. "We called all our contacts in the legal community," Levy said. "We looked at the newspapers: Who was writing on the subject? Who was sending letters to the editor about gun laws?" They scoured the city. "Friends lead you to other friends, and you just keep talking and talking to people, until finally you have your clients."

They found dozens of likely plaintiffs, Levy said. They went with three men and three women, from their mid-20s to early 60s, four of them white and two black. They found a mortgage broker from Georgetown and a neighborhood activist in a crime-scarred area of Northeast Washington. They also lined up a communications lawyer, a government office worker and a courthouse security guard. In their disparate walks of life, the six shared an eagerness to arm themselves.

Levy knew only one of them: Tom G. Palmer, 50, a Cato colleague who is gay. Years ago in California, Palmer said, he brandished a pistol to scare off several men who he feared were about to attack him because of his sexual orientation. He said he wants to be able to legally defend himself in his Washington home.

With some exceptions for police officers and others, the D.C. statute bars residents from owning handguns unless they were registered before 1976, the year the law was enacted. And it requires people with registered rifles or shotguns in their homes to keep them unloaded and either disassembled or fitted with trigger locks, meaning they cannot legally be used for self-defense.

"Ridiculous," Levy said.

In a 2 to 1 decision issued March 9, the appellate panel agreed with the plaintiffs that the gun restrictions violate the Second Amendment. The statute remains in effect, at least temporarily, while attorneys for the city consider their next legal move. The case could be headed to the Supreme Court, and it could affect other strict gun laws across the country.

Levy, who is mainly a writer and lecturer, is one of three plaintiff's attorneys in the case, his first direct involvement in litigation since he graduated from George Mason University law school in 1994, when he was 53. One of his co-counsels, Neily, is working on the lawsuit for free. The other, Alan Gura, a high-priced civil litigation specialist, was hired by Levy to serve as lead counsel and argue the case in court.

"To take something like this all the way through the Supreme Court, you're talking about several hundred thousand dollars," Levy said. But because Gura is charging a reduced rate, "it hasn't been nearly that much." Levy wouldn't cite a figure but said it was "a considerable sum." Whatever the price, he said, "happily, I'm in a position to pay it."

When the D.C. Council passed the restrictions three decades ago, it was trying to curb gun violence. Supporters of the law warn that if the appellate ruling stands and the District is forced to enact a weaker statute, permitting loaded weapons in homes, more shootings are sure to result, by accident and on purpose. Meanwhile, if pistols become legal in homes, many residents probably would acquire them, giving thieves more guns to steal and sell on the streets.

Like other critics of the law, Levy cites the District's annual triple-digit homicide totals and its "ridiculously high rate of crime" in the past 30 years as evidence that the statute has not made Washington safer. Its only impact, he said, has been to disarm honest residents in their homes, leaving them vulnerable in a violent city.

To Levy the libertarian, though, the effectiveness of the law -- its success or failure in curbing crime -- isn't the core issue. What matters most to him is whether the statute unjustly infringes on personal liberties. He doesn't dispute that "reasonable" gun controls are permissible under the Second Amendment. But the District's law amounts to "an outright prohibition," Levy said, and "that offends my constitutional sensibilities."

So he opened his wallet and did something about it.

Because of his and Tom Palmer's involvement in the case, Levy said, a mistaken impression has spread that the Cato Institute instigated the lawsuit. "They love this case and they've been very, very supportive," he said. But Cato is a think tank, not a law firm, and hasn't so much as filed a friend-of-the- court brief in the case. "This is my venture," Levy said.

The lawsuit failed last year in U.S. District Court, prompting the appeal that succeeded this month. Although gun-rights advocates and other organizations have offered to aid the case financially, Levy said, "I've taken nothing. Zero." The reason: "I don't want this portrayed as litigation that the gun community is sponsoring. . . . I don't want to be beholden to anyone. I want to call the shots, with my co-counsel."

He can afford to.

In the interview, Levy recalled his working-class roots in the Petworth area of Northwest Washington, where his parents ran a small hardware store. If there was a gun under the counter or in their home, he said, he never saw it.

After getting a doctorate in business from American University in 1966, he left the city for Silver Spring and started a company in his home: CDA Investment Technologies. Using the limited computer power available then, CDA analyzed and reported on the performances of securities, money managers and institutional portfolios.

Business boomed. By 1986, when he sold the company to a Dutch publishing giant, CDA had offices in Rockville, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Tokyo and London. The terms of the deal weren't disclosed, but Levy said he got plenty.

"Selling it allowed me to pursue whatever new opportunities I wanted to pursue without any financial pressures at all," he said. He decided to get a law degree and indulge his longtime interest in public policy. He had been contributing money to the Cato Institute for years, and in 1997, Cato hired him as a fellow, giving him a pulpit from which to espouse his views on limited government and the sanctity of personal freedoms.

The Second Amendment is just one of his areas of interest, and not the biggest one, Levy said. The right of the people to keep and bear arms isn't a right he ever needed to exercise.

"Even when I lived up there, I didn't live in D.C.," he said. "I lived in Chevy Chase, in a high-rise that was secure. And before that in Potomac. Not exactly high-risk areas."

The Chevy Chase high-rise is in Montgomery County. Levy and his wife sold the condo two years ago for $2.6 million and moved to Naples. They spend summers in their million-dollar home in Lake Biltmore, N.C., a resort area in the southwest corner of the state.

He said he visits Washington about once a month, but he steers clear of the neighborhood where he grew up. "Today it's an area of drug sales, a lot of crime," he said.

"I mean, where my dad's store was, you don't want to walk around there at night anymore."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 03:38:00 (ZULU)

Geeeeezzzzz....... you need to login every five minutes to keep up with what's going on around here, before it gets deleted...... :8-\

Duman
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 03:40:13 (ZULU)

Doug:

The Beretta 1201 is well-regarded, I expect you'll be pleased.

http://www.archivum.info/rec.guns/2005-07/msg01511.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 03:45:38 (ZULU)

Darren,

You probably already know this but the 200 yard line at Chabot is open to the public on Friday mornings until about noon or 1:00. There's a regular group some high power shooters and retired guys there at that time. Much better than the crowds at the 100 yard line on a weekend day.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 04:32:41 (ZULU)

Rod, Thanks for posting that story. That's some good news. Hope he takes on California next.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 05:46:51 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"Dumb old Dan doesn't GAS whose crosshairs are on him.

No?"<

Jes!! Ju Gottit mang. My point exactly. It's like having a program that counts casino money and adds the takes from 12 casinos to the penny (as in: $12,964,845.85), and then on the 13th, just enters "About $14,000,000.00. The thirteenth addition WIPES OUT the accuracy of all the first 12 bookkeeping efforts, and all ou can say about the income of the 13 casinos, is they earned "about" $13 million each!!

Shy-Taco's (I luv it!!), projects are all like that. They have all these itty bitty details that look good in catalogues, and are impressive as hell, until you realize that one of the omissions wipe out all their work, and you are back to a simple program with a lot of pixie dust on it.

Joe...

Thanks for your take on "Parallel bore zero". It smacks of pixie dust, but I'll stay out of it.

As to the insult of the person bringing it up... you should understand that this site and Shy-Taco go back about 8 years, when Tigger-tweeneytwo first came in here and announced that "HE had done arrived and we could all just go die for his majesty.

Then it turns out he got a job for Shy-Taco to be their front man and "technical espert". The little dick didn't know how to do long range drop tests, and I hand feed him "how to" info for weeks so he could show up to work and look like he knew what he was doing.

Shy-Taco was a running sore here for a few years, and a few guys got stuck for their deposit on rifles.

And then came the oceans of BS from Mista Tigger-tweeneytwo.

So this site has "EARNED" the right to dump on Shy-Taco 8 days a week.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 05:51:41 (ZULU)

Les,

Damn, man. You've really gone and done it now. You actually mentioned D**n's name. I shudder to think of what's gonna happen. You may get a visit from him late some night.

CDC',

I don't have a Kimber .22, but I do have two of their conversion kits, one in .22 and the other in .17 MACH 2. Both work and shoot extremely well. It's a little odd that neither kit will fit on a Kimber Warrior I have, but will fit very well on an old, and I mean OLD, 1911 frame that I've had since the mid 70's and it was old then.

A couple of people I know had fit problems with the conversion kits, and sent the frames and kits to Kimber. They came back working perfectly, and the turnaround time was fairly quick, something on the order of two weeks.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 05:57:52 (ZULU)

Les...

jc is right!

>" Les, Damn, man. You've really gone and done it now. You actually mentioned D**n's name. I shudder to think of what's gonna happen. You may get a visit from him late some night."<

Last time I mentioned D**n's full name, I got a nasty-gram that he was sickin' "Lawyer Dagget" on me, cuz he had copyrighted the name "D**n" and no one else was allowed to even whisper it in the darkest alleys, without deep pockets for "Lawyer Dagget"!!

Just so you know. I haven't heard from "lawyer Dagget" yet (it was over a year ago), but I'm saving up my beer cans so I can make an out of court settlement that is equal to what D**n's reputation is worth. I got about 7 beer cans so far... that should do it.

The Rug Rat got the rest of them for a new computer game :(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 06:13:01 (ZULU)

Test, Was out from work due to a horse accident and thought I would drop in. You guys are still a hoot.

Dirty Steve

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, TX, USA - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 07:40:43 (ZULU)

For you fellers that haven't shot the new F-class targets.........

You will not believe how small that new 1000 yard 5" x-ring is until you try to shoot it with winds gusting from less than 4mph to over 25mph between the time you put yer finner on the trigger and then fire the round. There were some world class shooters at Butner this weekend scatching their heads and their asses trying to figure out how to sneak a bullet in the x-ring. Luckily, I'm not a world class shooter so it didn't bother me :)

Not looking forward to quitting smoking next week, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 10:52:15 (ZULU)

Morgue,

I don't know what was said and or if I was even the target of it since whatever it was must have been deleted. But I in no way ment any disrespect to you. I don't operate that way I was only asking a question about your system as compared to any other system out there.

I didn't understand the termnology you used so was asking what your program offered that say JBM didn't. If I understand you correctly you zero at 300yds instead of 100yds and then when you go to a different elevation your program will add or subtract MOA changes for the elevation changes on out to whatever range is this correct???

I guess what I am trying to ask is what does this program do that I can't do with JBM or anyother free one on the internet???

I may not understand the principal but I would think that the data you have at 300yds would not make a big impact over a 100yd zero since it would probably be only about a .5 moa difference from zero elevation to say 5000ft. The big difference starts as you get past 600yds at least this has been my experience. Just curious and wondering what the difference is. Thanks!!!

Pat
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 13:25:45 (ZULU)

The problem with zeroing at 500 yds.

The elevation/baro variations on a 100 yd zero are non-existent. You zero at 100yds at sea level, and go to 10,000 feet, you still have a 100 yd zero. If you are running a paper "cheat sheet", a log book, or a PDA, you just have to run the new baro inputs and you instantly have the down range corrections.

There is no more accuracy in zeroing at 500 than at 100... you are limited to the click value of your scope, so (with the standard 1/4 click), you will ALWAYS be within 1/8" or less from the center of the target at 100 yds. At 500 yds, you will ALWAYS be within 5/8th" of the center of the target.

BUT (da big BUT)... at 500 yds, your zero will vary as the weather (baro) changes... at 100 yds, it is always the same. From summer to winter to dry spell to wet spell to storm to clear... your 500 yd zero will "float", and as Martha would say "... and that's a very badd thing!"

And... if you use a long range zero (500 yds), at sea level, when you go to 10,000 feet, you no longer have a zero to work from, cuz your rifle is now shooting high... 6 to 8 inches high in the case of 500 yds - it makes working from a "cheat sheet" or a log book impossible, and working from a PDA VERY convoluted.

So the concept that a 500 yd zero is more accurate, is patently false.

Leave it to Shy-Taco to make a simple thing into a big deal to impress the customers.

Not beatin up on Morgue (see, I got it right this time ;), as he was just the messenger...

... it's that same ol' Shy-Taco BS deja Vous all over again.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 14:50:48 (ZULU)

Bravo...

Are you near Hiawatha, Utah??

If so, go here:

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=147379&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 15:01:16 (ZULU)

100 zero versus 500 yard zero? Well I set my base zero at 100 yards on most weapons and 200 on some longer range weapons. My F Class rifle has a 300 yard zero on it because 300 is as close as we ever shoot. That does not mean its best or only way to get her done. Its just what works for me.

Now I have known Dean for many years and I believe I understand his reasons well for the 500 yard zero. If memory serves me well I believe he sets the rifle up so the scope base has enough angle built in that 500 yards is the shortest rnage the scope will zero at. This allows all the travel of the scope for extreme range shooting. You know instead of a zero which has the scope with 45 moa down and 45 moa up of scope travel left. It has 90 moa travel up and no travel down left. This makes sense if you need this travel and dont plan on shooting closer than 500 yards.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 15:03:18 (ZULU)

'lito,

You said exactly what I am thinking. I don't understand why zeroing at 500yds at sealevel would be any different than zeroing at 100yds at sealevel.

Because in theory you will still be off "X" MOAs at 500yds due to the elevation difference in your zeros AO. When I went to the D&L shoot in Wyoming I went from 1400ft here to around 5000+ft out there. I simply stuck the data into JBM and used there data and was pretty darn close.

The first year I went out there I had no data for the elevation change. In fact I hadn't even thought about it. They let us zero at 500yds and I found my 500yd zero was fairly close so I wasn't concerned about it. Then when we started shooting the course I found out I was shooting over a lot of targets out at 800+yds.

The only true way to get good zeros is to get zeros in the AO your going to be shooting in at the longest range you will be shooting then it will all fall into place for you. Lacking that the programs will help you out and will "Usually" get you on paper.

I will have a full MOA change in my data from time to time shooting out here because of atmospheric conditions so there are no definates in shooting!!!

Morgue,

Not knocking you or your system just questioning the logic of it is all. Wind reading is a science (Sicentific wild ass guess) and its not learned on a computer but by shooting in a lot of windy conditions and watching for little changes. I was shooting yesterday and had everything from a full value side wind to a quarting, head on wind all in the same session.

Medic Jim,

Was doing load testing on my 6.5x55 with the Lapua 139s and used the 260 with the 123s as a test gun for load comparison. The 260 will group around .5 most days with the 123s. I was surprised to see the difference in wind drift with the 123s to the 139s.

The 123s with no wind correction drifted about 6"s at 500yds compared to around 3"s for the 139s. Not sure on the veloctity yet of the 139s so that may be a factor but still was surprised.

Pat
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 15:32:06 (ZULU)

Gerry

Regarding the Beretta auto loader. I looked at the 870s, a Winchester and a couple Mossbergs. I just liked the feel of the Beretta and I thought I'd like the fact that it's semi auto. I realize it's a new design but it seems they kept it simple. Hope I made the right choice.

It seems to be made well

doug sickels
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 15:58:54 (ZULU)

Marc, thanks for the info, and yeah I did know. I can't get off work until 2:00. I am taking a co-worker there to teach him proper 1911 gun handling and to teach him to hit the target after I get some rifle shooting in or visa versa.

I have been itching to go back and shoot at one of the matches that SJZouaves host down in SJ and also head out to Sac to participate in the Mudville match again too. I have alot of catching up to do before the wife and kid gets back home. :-)

Darren

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 16:06:30 (ZULU)

Pat,

I'm shooting the 139 Scenars @2990 (a pretty mild load) from my fagmag. I've got a box of 1K 123 Scenars that I'm going to be using at that same velocity in my 6.5x47 Lapua, once JR's barrel arrives.

I suppose I'll be seeing just what each of these bullets does in the wind this season :)

ALAN
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 16:11:24 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Good luck quiting smoking. I gave up chewing after 20 yrs two years ago. I had tried many times before I was able to do it. When some one asked how I did it. I told them, it was ruff but the cigars helped. Ha. Actually they did help becuase they gave me the nicotine but with outh the chewing. I missed the chewing as much as the nicotine. So it helped cure one part of my addiction while keeping the other. I only smoke two or three cigars a week. So I don't have the nicotine addiction because if I don't have the time to sit down and enjoy the cigar with a nice Brandy and relax. I just skip it till I have the time and desire to burn one. Hope this is slightly usefull.

Chye-trac again? Why don't we do the Toyota Corolla effect again?

Joe,

Congrats on your pending retirement. Don't get to bored on your terminal leave and do something stupid like get another job. If you feel the need to do that it means you don't have enough hobbies. I work to support my hobbies and when I can afford them with out working they will be even more enjoyable. Except the horses it's hard to get real excited after a week in the hospital and 4 weeks sittin in the house getting fatter. This feeling will most likely change once all the ribs heal. Plus I got a new one ready to hit the ground around April 1st. That will give me something new to play with.

Dirty Steve............

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, TX, USA - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 16:45:22 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve's trying to lay the blame off on the horse. I TOLD him not to wear the red sequined HIGH HEELS. You wear flats when you ride, even in the evening gown.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 16:53:21 (ZULU)

Doug re: Beretta 1201

It's not a *really* new design, been around since at least 1995

based on postings about it on the net. Many of the parts are the same as the Benelli M1 Super 90.

That only qualifies as new compared to how long the 870 has been around :-) (first release around 1950).

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/SH27-E.HTM - B1201

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh17-e.htm - R870

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 16:56:56 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, WELCOME BACK! Missed ya dude! I'll have to get Chuck to twist your arm HARD next time he's coming up to BadLands - and he gives me enough notice you'all will be there, and we'll have to send some rounds down range!

Don't be a stranger!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 17:16:34 (ZULU)

Test post. Have been away from SC for more than a few years to my embarrassment. Need to relearn nearly everything about long range shooting.

Pat Henry

Live Free, let the other guy die.

Pat Henry
Iraq, - Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 17:20:27 (ZULU)

I knew that was coming. Well, it's new to me!

doug sickels
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 17:21:26 (ZULU)

It's interesting to see the Democrats coming apart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo

Duman
Tuesday, March 20, 2007, at 20:03:24 (ZULU)

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