Sorta like the way you can get any experimental result you want if you know what results you want before you start. One of the classics in that game was a Brit PhD who mocked the wierdos by producing a 0.95 correlation (1.0 is perfect) between the sale of oranges and the incidence of violence in Britain. No cause & effect, just coexisting events.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 00:23:42 (ZULU)
You got mail w/o attachment.
Mk4
Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 02:46:10 (ZULU)
Entries still coming for the match. Slots still available also if you are interested.
Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 04:02:15 (ZULU)
Just to repeat what we've said here before. 20% of the American people care enough about freedom to fight for it. The rest love it but wouldn't have the courage to fight. If they'd only get the hell out of the way so the 20 can take care of business.
I guess I'll put off buying that new Mercedes or Audi... but wait ain't they made in Georgia now?
Lets see. What product am I supposed to boycott? OH yeah, no more French Fries or German Mauser's .. yeah that's it.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 04:04:30 (ZULU)
I think most of the good German and French genes left the mainland Europe for the UK and eventually North America years ago. Whoa nelly!!! Gooch runs for his bunker!!!
By the way "Gooch" is of Nordic/European origin by way of the UK arriving in the US prior to the revolution:-)
Just bored and raising hate and discontent again:-)
Out here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 04:32:15 (ZULU)
One of my infrequent posts. LOT's of great posts...postulating on the current state of the world. Terrorism on the upsurge and our "human shields" still don't want us to do anything to the perps...
We've gone from the "melting pot" where people worked hard to become Americans and were proud of it to the "salad bowl" there where each should keep his/her nationala identity and not be integrated into our society. The proponents of this theory tell us this can strengthen our national character, etc. Right!
I would propose another theory. Those who come here to be educated, find job's, and taste our freedom's don't want to go home. They don't want to be part of the process, in their own countries, that helped form our great nation
...at a significant price. They are cowards who want a piece of our national pie without having contributed anything except their presence and drain on our economy. I submit that we have become a REFUGEE CAMP. 'nuff said...
On the .223 WSM. You gotta be kidding me! The .22/250 is a notorious barrel burner and this thing has 17% MORE capacity! Yup, that grey you see following your bullet is rifling! Good luck, NOT me. I'll stick .223 Rem, .308, 6.5 X .284. Thankee very much!
Am off my one year probationary service on April 1st. Pay raise, etc. will acompany that event. Hard to believe it's been a year.
UNdude, how's the knee? Hope all is progressing well for you...
'Bout all for now.
Semper Fi,
Wes
P.S. Waiting for my Gardner .338 Lapua to show up...:-)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 04:39:25 (ZULU)
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 05:19:05 (ZULU)
Most important, though, Joe M.: Words just don't work. Deepest sympathies to her, from all in my house.
All you folks plugging in poll numbers, the phrase I aways hear is "figures lie and liars figure." Anyone can make any poll say anything, depending on wording and results desired. Current media accounts of *anything* show this very clearly.
And while I know my name seems to get some peoples hackles up, I had to risk passing along this link, sent to me from an even more liberal shooter friend. (Yes, they exist. ;) It's pretty well written, and the points it argues are not without merit. Though I know I'll catch H--- for posting it here.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2003/03/07/notes030703.DTL&nl=fix
I'll be in my bunker, awaiting the coming s---storm.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 06:20:26 (ZULU)
Damn well said, Mike.
jc
jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 06:26:53 (ZULU)
The Mercedes plant is in Vance, Alabama. It's near Tuscaloosa, somewhat near Birmingham.
Alabama spends ass loads of money on roads. After traveling in other parts of the country, I think we have the best roads. While the state government likes to piss away money, at least we get to use the roads. The highways tend to be good all through the state.
Honda also has a plant in Alabama. They and Mercedes received millions of dollars worth of tax and land incentives.
BMW has a plant in South Carolina i think. Also, BMW owns Rolls-Royce cars. I still can't believe that happened.
Scope bases/mounts;
Is there anyone who can build quality scope bases/mounts for under a few hundred bucks? The only mount I can find for a 1903 in a B-Square. It'll work but I'd rather have something better. I don't want to drill the top of the receiver.
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 14:49:09 (ZULU)
I guess I will chime in on origins.. the hunter side of the family all came from troup country georgia - frenchman and cherokee indian started it all.
Hmm... frenchman...maybe that's why I tend to sleep with my arms up in theair.... dam! gotta tie them things down tomy side... LOL
later on hawgs....back to werk..
Ken
ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, USofA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 15:12:22 (ZULU)
HORSESHIT!..........How's dat fo conservative free speech.......For further debate you know where to find me.
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 17:03:09 (ZULU)
Terry Hoover <Thooverusmcv68@aol.com>
Kansas City, Kansas, - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 17:43:15 (ZULU)
"all while remaining safe and cozy in your little hippie-happy tofu-licking gay-friendly S.F. cocoon, all protected and insulated and smug. " describes him pretty well.
"Shrub sends in 300,000 of our youth to blast a cheap thug who is, by every account, no serious threat to the U.S., and never has been, and who had nothing to do with 9/11, and whose ties to terrorism are tenuous at best, all while rabid North Korea happily buys more nuke technology from desperate Pakistan and sells the finished product to the highest bidder. " has a ring of truth. And we will insure that he does not become a threat won't we, and we'll get around to North Korea shortly too won't we?
"The military does not protect my freedom. Our soldiers are not out there right now safeguarding me, or you, or us, from some sort of total, '50s-era, Red Scare-esque dictatorial overthrow of our nation; nor is the military guaranteeing I have the right to write this column any more than it is protecting your right to read it, or to protest the war and speak freely and smoke imported French cigarettes and watch porn and drive really fast. Not anymore, they're not. Not this time. " .... No that was last time. This time we are shipping some ordinance and some world class invasion forces to those who whould return to the 50s era Red Scare-ewque dictorial overthrow of our nation.
"our smirky Enron president and cash-hungry CEO administration, it's never been so flagrant, or insulting, or invidious. "...I Can't argue with that but what has that got to do with the threat from abroad?
"Our soldiers are not protecting our freedoms. They are not preventing more terrorism. They are not guaranteeing continued free speech. Because the only true threat to such freedoms is coming from within. "... and that is mostly comprised of Liberal assholes like you Mark Morford or that Clinton Jerk or that simpleminded pacificist carpenter from Peanut Georgia who fostered all this crap the these rag heads to start with. We should have attacked Iran and stopped all this long ago when they took the hostages.
"until your pathetic little faggy S.F. and granola Berkeley get "hit" and your family and friends are screaming and burning to death and we'll see how you feel then, won't we, when Dubya tried to warn you and where will your hippie crap be then huh? Huh? ",,,How could I top that?
"Saddam is a threat to those same corporate concerns. The U.S. military is right now serving ExxonMobil. And Lockheed Martin. And is protecting, unbeknownst to it, our grip on power brokering in the Middle East. "..... yes and isn't it beautiful! Capitalism in action... whining boy... get used to it!
Oh yes, quotes from Mark Morford San Francisco Gate. who rightfully deserves the credit for such literary genius.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 18:41:18 (ZULU)
It’s too cold to spend any time on the range today so I’ve been down in the office working on my next installment for The Practitioner’s Guide. I’ve been pulling out my references for the work and found another error in the field manuals. The tough part of this is that two manuals contradict each other and I don’t know which is right.
Specifically the topic is range estimation using the naked eye.
In the SOTIC manual in section 4-6 it says;
They (objects) will also appear nearer when the viewer is looking downward from high ground.
In FM23-10, Sniper Training, dtd.17 August 1994 in section VI it says;
Looking downhill, the target appears farther away.
Does anybody have a clue as to which is correct?
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 19:27:23 (ZULU)
Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 19:58:11 (ZULU)
When looking down on a person/target that target is going to look shorter than it actually is, thus the impression it is farther away. Exact opposite when looking up at a target, it will appear closer than actually is. It all boils down to the angle at which you are looking at the target.
Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 20:40:38 (ZULU)
So where's Lito lately?
JR what day you guys coming over.
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 20:45:11 (ZULU)
Brogers: As always, an interesting analysis. I'm recommending it to the friend who sent me the link.
Mark and Terry: Brevity becomes you.
However, if you cannot think like your enemy, walk among him, know his ways, love his pleasures and despise his torments, understand his side of the story without condescention or awe, you will never defeat your enemy. Not with steel, fire, salt, or gold. Remember that, gentlemen.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 21:40:22 (ZULU)
I had a good 100 yard zero when I went down there, but it still took 10 sighters to get me in the x. Up and down, up and down, wasn't paying attention to the dial. By then I was running out of time and ended up shooting the first match in rapid fire.
The HBV needs 5 minutes less to make the trip than my PSS. This I don't understand. Same ammo, similar guns, different elevations. As usual I couldn't settle down, got in a hurry, rushed my shots, got frustrated, couldn't read the wind, couldn't decipher the mirage, the same old story.
Soaking her tube with Hoppes now. Ahhhhh, the sweet smell of Hoppes wafting through the house! A true aphrodesiac.
Shot with a retired marine chopper pilot, etc. Nice guy with a nice wifey who kept me straight on keeping her hubby's score while my mind was wondering off.
Whooped Bolt, Out!
BTW, Master Cockerham is not deceased or MIA. He cleaned my clock again, nothing new about that.
Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:10:55 (ZULU)
I too thought the article was horseshit, and the guy who wrote it sounds like a horse's ass.
Take care!
Rob Opp
Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:12:57 (ZULU)
By doing these things you will not defeat your enemy......You will become your enemy.......
This is knowing the nature of the foe stretched beyond necessity.....
.....Witness the Civil War......
More Horseshit.
Oh and by the way, Corporate America is established by the consumer, not the military........
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:17:17 (ZULU)
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:21:52 (ZULU)
Very well said! President Enron Bush? C'mon, that shit took seed and blossomed during Klintons watch. Bush just happened to be around for the harvest.
Treehugger,
I won't dignify that drivel by calling it horseshit. Horseshit has a real value. I trade it for fresh-picked apples and peaches every year.
As to your comment at the end of your post - seems like I heard the same referencing moccasins. To put it into the kind of language that San Franciscans understand - does a straight have to take it up the ass BEFORE he knows that it's gonna hurt?
If your effort was intended to stir the pot around here it was mildly sucessful, but it was but a ripple compared to Winchester vs. Remington, USO vs. Leupold, Steve NATO, or Dean Michalis and his "magic bullets". A little excitement is better than none. At least that's what they tried to tell us during the VN bomb shortage.
It's allll...goood!
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:34:06 (ZULU)
I was going to chime in with a response to your question, and then I read Master Whittington's response. The first thing that must be regognized is that it only applies to range estimating with the naked eye- as you know, if you are milling the targets vertical dinension, whether up- or downhill you will get the same reading(distance)in both cases and it will be wrong. As a "rule of thumb" if you are actually looking up or down the "line" of a hill, Bobby's comments work well. But, as with all "rules of thumb" there are exceptions. If you remove the "line" formed by the hill (i.e.; you are looking through open space) the rule has limited and variable utility. Look at the age old optical illusion below:
<---->
>----<
Drawing it for yourself on a piece of paper will help, but you know what I'm talking about--The bottom line looks longer. It is the same visual problem in estimating distances up- and downhill. Without the visual cue provided by the LINE of the hill between the observer and target things get a little sketchy.
Those of you that are shooting ASC# 2 will get a real world application of the ups and downs of long range shooting.
Rod
Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:34:50 (ZULU)
Yes, we do venture into "politics" as does every bar, parkbench and bus stop in the USA.
Anyway; Huggerman Some people seem to think that everything the US of A does should involve some kind of holy human rights or foreign aid to some volcano invested island somewhere not to mention some malady spread by some kind of unnatural sex act. It's not all about Democracy it's also about making it work. If we allow our businesses and corporations to be depressed by threat of foreign attack or interests we can control, we'll wind up like the rest of the 3rd world. Starving and conquered. The world needs to know it's our freedom and welfare we are concerned with. Not neccessarily theirs or some other outdated country that floated a statue in awe of our efforts a few decades ago. The French and their statue is clearly an indication of what they think freedom is all about. Monuments by God don't keep us free. Those grunts over there are doing it and always will. The Pen is mighter than the sword they say. Just be damn careful how you challenge a swordsman.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:59:13 (ZULU)
This to answer all of the people who claim that the war with Iraq is unjustified and Saddam hasn't bothered us.
First a few points. WHERE does bin Laden get his gear? WHO would have more reason to support Al Queda's attacks on the U.S. ? The inspections are an excuse for the UN. Otherwise, we wouldn't have many allies. But, thank you to the ones we do have.
Or let's look at it this way. Here's plenty of justification. Hussein is a murderous tyrant. I heared someone say that WW2 was the last justified war we fought because we were attacked. We were attacked on Sept. 11th by terrorist.
On Dec. 7th (the liberals will remember Pearl Harbor because of that Baldwin puke, a disgrace to GEN Doolittle) we were attacked by the Japanese Empire. Yet we fought against Hitler and Musolini. Hitler did declare war on the U.S. but the Nazis didn't attack us nor did the Italians. We destroyed a large portion of Italy and Germany even though we really didn't have to fight them. Why did we fight the Axis powers? It wasn't because of the Holocaust (some of the liberals will be confused at this), we(the world) didn't know about the horrors being commited by the Nazis. We only knew that the Jews were being oppressed. We fought the war in Europe and North Africa because the Nazis and Facist Italians were allied with Japan.
The same applies to Hussein and bin Laden. If we only fight bin Laden we leave Hussein unchecked. Just like fighting only Tojo and leaving Hitler. Remember, we didn't really know how bad Hitler was until we entered Germany.
Now, using the same anti-war logic of today, were we wrong to destroy Hitler? If so, tell it to the Holocaust survivors.
Then again, these anti-war hippie wanna-be's believe we were wrong to use atomic bombs on Japan. They would rather have 10 times as many military and civilians die in a conventional invasion.
Sometimes there are no good alternatives, just the lesser of two evils. The Arab world will never love us or even respect us, don't kid yourselves. They are taught to hate Christians and Jews (WE HAVE MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE) and anyone who supports Israel.
Anyone remember the protest that were going on before Gulf War 1? They crawled away in a hurry after it got started and the people gave great support to the operation.
If anyone can prove me wrong, I welcome you do do so.
I'm probably just preaching to the choir, but maybe some liberal anti-war types will get this. Oh, and we are blessed that we have the President we do in this war. If we had Gore, we would have already surrendered.
Dean;
I see the "magic bullet" debate is still in memory.
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 23:00:36 (ZULU)
out
G.W
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 23:51:43 (ZULU)
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 23:54:30 (ZULU)
The initial part of my earlier post was not directed at the general discussion of what to do, or when, or how, it was directly pointed at the BS comments about blaming various administrations and groups for the current state of affairs. And believe me it is BS. Our system is set up so a president is elected and there is a smooth, orderly transition of power from one person to another. Like it or not, the world situation, and internal politics are SOOOOOO much more complex than ANY one person can control, it is nothing short of silly to play the blame game when it comes to a particular situation. What US president has been presented with four years without an issue or two that he would have preferred had happened on someone else's watch? Every president enters office with the legacy of decades of bad decisions to remedy. After all, it's HISTORY and we can't change it. Some portion of the population (The Majority) elected every leader we have ever had and we continue to exist as a country; through every swing of the pendulum -liberal and conservative. Our system produces BALANCE over time. It is this very fact that contributes to making the US a great country. The framers wanted it this way.
I guess this response was not really directed toward you Bill, as I said we agree.
Now, can we please talk about shooting - even if its BB's
Rod
Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 01:22:26 (ZULU)
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 02:13:53 (ZULU)
You have mail, no attachments.
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 02:17:36 (ZULU)
Jody, well said.
Shit I'm tired, damn night shifts. interesting team on tonight, Got a Greek, A German who is Mick Jaggers double, a Yank, who is a Vietnam Vet and me.. think I'll buy em a coffee and we can talk war.
Question,, you guys who have the Badger bottom metal on a Rem 700. How much larger is it than the standard unit and how did you remove the nessecary material from the stock, with a dremmel or actualy machine it out? I've got to fit n bed Jon B's new stock for him this week and i was wondering how anyone else had done it.
Coffee time.. Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 02:21:46 (ZULU)
Here's the questions again
1, How do you send care packages to the troops?
A, What is the address that you put on the packages?
B, Do you get charged normal postage rates or do you get a break
when you send stuff to our military guys?
C, How big can the packages be, weight and size?
2, What do you guys or gals that have been in the military like to get
in care packages?
A, hard candy
B, toilet paper
C, magazines
D, tootpaste
E, chapstick
F, what else, since I haven't been in I don't know what is most
popular
E, A note thanking them for their sacrifice maybe
3, Joe Mahon, since you spend alot of time here and seem to me like a
good family man and a leader who cares about his troops can I send
them to you and you pass them out as needed or is this a bad idea?
4, Any other info that would make this easier would be helpful, I
know everyone likes to get something in the mail and since I'm not
in the military I feel like it's the least I can do.
Tony Burkes <tburkes@sbcglobal.net>
Alvin, Tx, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 02:29:12 (ZULU)
Jim; I think the contour is the same. The stocks will fit and interchange anyway. There is no advantage unless you like the flutted barrels of the VSSF ;models.
Rod; yes, we don't disagree and it's probably just bar talk to even discuss it but satisfying none the less to some of us old farts that they won't take in the Sniper Service anymore. But individual politicians can be responsible. Take for instance the decision to end Sniper diplomacy. Clinton sent in (count em as they roar past) 70 cruise missles after Osama and finally blew a medical plant at probably no particular fault of his own but the hearts and minds aren't won that way. One little matchking would have been Nixon's or JFK's solution to that little problem. Much cheaper and the world would have long forgotten him. Regan had a nice way of handling trouble makers like Kadaffi but he should have sent the sniper instead. Carter's little liberal plan to do away with Sniper diplomacy and signed by Ford (another dumb butt) put us in the shape we're in. You see, back then....If you screwed with us too much the CIA might stop your clock and nobody would know any different. There were many Suicides and strange illnesses attributed to natural causes but the Dictators and Tyrants soon caught on. Castro is a miracle that survived. I know how but that's another story.
You see these are just little electronic Bytes, they don't pain anyone except Maurius, our long suffering archiver. But heck, we can just click click delete and it's all gone. We aren't even ruining spotted owl habitat with logging or anything like that. I'm able to use either hand equally well. A unusual condition of nature but almost anyone can talk about politics and guns at the same time.
BB's do bore me though :) No problem Rod I know where you're coming from. But the site was getting a little stale! Yes, Pete I miss him too. It's not the same. No contr. makes for a dull site.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 03:47:36 (ZULU)
There is a local group taking up donated items for the local NG/Reserves. They are looking for travel size items that are not normally issued such as: eye drops, skin moisturizer, razors, sun screen, etc. I have donated a few items.
If there isn't any group near you, maybe you can form one. I'd talk to the Red Cross. You could also talk to the local NG/Reserves and donate to them if they are deploying. Or perhaps adopt an active military unit and contact that unit's PAO (public affairs)and they should assist you or at least put you on the right track.
Whatever you send, just make sure it's small, easy to carry, won't spoil, tasteful, and can be used by anyone who gets it.
LATER
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 04:11:19 (ZULU)
Brogers: To be stubborn, yes, the most important thing is the Democracy, and you should think very d--- hard about using any sarcasm when describing the human rights the UN (and the US, on its better days) champions as holy. That's what it's about. The big picture. If you doubt me, read the CONSTITUTION. When it becomes about our corporations and the stability of our economy, it becomes about Plutocracy, and I don't think either of us is wealthy enough to enjoy the final result of that sort of policymaking. Unless maybe you're one of the ones who got out of Enron in time. That being said, I don't think we'd agree much on most things, but on sending in a sniper to do the job PROPERLY the FIRST TIME, we're at 100%.
Mark Smith: Yes, Corporate America was established by the consumer, not the military. No, you won't become your enemy, any more than learning to speak Russian and spending a few years living in Russia will make you a Russian. There is no such thing as too much knowledge.
Jody: Thank you, that was one of the best pieces of argument I've yet seen on this site. Though if you want to know where bin Laden got his gear and training, look no farther than our own CIA. Since his days as mujahidin, he's been restocking in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where the local gunsmiths can reverse-engineer an M4 in six hours and have a perfect copy on the street in eighteen. Even according to the CIA, Iraq has no or negligible links to alQaeda. And if you think the Arab world will never love us, you don't know your history so well as you think. In the 30s, America could do no wrong in that part of the world. Only our blind support of Israel has turned them against us. Hell, you can hardly blame them for that. That being said, your analogy between the US going to war with Hitler and going to war against Iraq was excellent and has a lot of merit.
Rod: Your post was *elegant*! Playing the "blame game", thinking of each administration as separate from the next or the last, is very foolish indeed. But the best part of your post was about returning to talk about shooting.
And to finish that thought, though this request is somewhat out of place here, does anyone have a favorite source for 1920s pistol parts? I've got an Ortgies that needs a new .380 barrel.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 06:33:11 (ZULU)
I am waiting eagerly for my next GA stick.... the much discussed SC rifle..!
Any word from master Rick?
JagerSpotter, how goes it?
I have a couple of S&B PM IIs coming from the across the pond, it will be interesting to see how they compare to the older one I have and the Leupolds and NSXs. Nothng else seems to look right on the AI rifles.
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 08:17:19 (ZULU)
And next time you're at the lake, give Alexander's horse an apple for me ;))
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 10:49:05 (ZULU)
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 11:54:12 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 12:14:22 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 12:15:23 (ZULU)
Alexander was 11 years old when he got his first horse named Bucephalus. He was the only one who could tame him. Bucephalus was famous because he took Alexander to the battlefields every time. Alexander's horse Bucephalus died at age 30. Alexander had reached the Punjab in what is now Pakistan and he built a city called Bucaphala in the horse's honor. Now Bucephalus name is in history. By the way Bucephalus means "Ox Head".....great name.
How's that for "off topic"?
Ref:6.5x.284 loads
I'm going to go get some magnum rifle primers and see if I can cut down the extreme spread of my loads. Is there a powder for this case size that will be Varget-Like in its temperature resistance? I hate to use up too much barrel life working up loads. I've been warned that loads that are ok in 40 degrees F will go overpressure in 80 or 90 degree weather. So what do I do? Wait until summer?
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 12:22:08 (ZULU)
Bull Shit that Arabs have ever loved America. They were indeed afraid of TR and his foreign policies but the infidel has always and will continue to be the boogey man over there. Our "Blind support" of Israel has kept a Race from extinction in that part of the world. That seems pro human rights to me. But what would I know of such things?
Oh yeah, who pays for the Military. Is that in the constitution
To Lurkers and occasional posters and closet Liberals:
Hey, you don't come in here and throw a sucker punch and then change the subject if anyone's thinkin like that, I ain't takin prisioners.
Kevin' you might try this new Bench Rest Powder from the Varget producers, they claim it's more Temp Stable. I could tell little difference yet in the .308 class but something tells me it would work better in the .260 class.
The .260 I tried was a bit much as a Varmint round. It will sure as hell take out a coyote or PD but it's a little overkill. The 260-284 is likewise a bit much but it works I'm told as a long range cartridge so there might be a niche in there somewhere.
John are you talking bullets or bull he's shooting?
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 13:42:49 (ZULU)
Once upon a time in a nice little forest, there lived an orphaned bunny and an orphaned snake. By a surprising coincidence, both were blind from birth.
One day, the bunny was hopping through the forest, and the snake was slithering through the forest, when the bunny tripped over the snake and fell down. This, of course, knocked the snake about quite a bit.
"Oh, my," said the bunny, "I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. I've been blind since birth, so, I can't see where I'm going. In fact, since I'm also an orphan, I don't even know what I am."
"It's quite OK," replied the snake. "Actually, my story is much the same as yours. I, too, have been blind since birth, and also never knew my mother. Tell you what, maybe I could slither all over you, and work out what you are, so at least you'll have that going for you."
"Oh, that would be wonderful" replied the bunny. So the snake slithered all over the bunny, and said, "Well, you're covered with soft fur; you have really long ears; your nose twitches; and you have a soft cottony tail. I'd say that you must be a bunny rabbit."
"Oh, thank you! Thank you," cried the bunny, in obvious excitement. The bunny suggested to the snake, "Maybe I could feel you all over with my paw, and help you the same way that you've helped me."
So the bunny felt the snake all over, and remarked, "Well, you're smooth slimy and slippery, and you have a forked tongue, no backbone, and no balls.
I'd say you are definitely French".
Workman <cworkman@esiofva.com>
Va Beach, VA, - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 14:02:24 (ZULU)
By no means fitting your criteria of "in between", IMHO, every serious varmint shooter should have at least one .223, and if possible a Hornet..Both allow lots of shooting as componants are cheap and barrel life is long for either. Hunting varmints with the Hornet is just that. Sort of like being a kid again. Just my .02 worth.
outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Safely ensconced in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 14:48:40 (ZULU)
Kevin don't waste your time with a Fag Mag. Bottom line is 300wm, RL22, Fed Case, Fed215m primer, MK190. It works every time.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 15:19:29 (ZULU)
Kevin,
H4831SC is an Extreme powder like Varget, and being slower burning than the H4350 you're using now, is better suited to that long barreled 6.5x.284 you got. Just MHO.
Don
Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 15:25:20 (ZULU)
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 15:29:38 (ZULU)
rabbit n snake, sounds like a good name for a pub to me,, laughed my ass off.
22 Hornet, a mate of mine shoots a lot of roe deer with it, close range only.
What you need is one of each.
A hornet for plinking and for the kids to use( or a 17 watsername hornady thing)
a 223 for general use,
you can debate the 22.250, its marginaly better than a 223 and doesn't quite match the 220swift, sod it, get a 233 and a 220swift.
Then you want a 243, so your boy can deer hunt and you can varmint in the wind, and a 260, just because you can. Then damn it does get windy, and i'd like a pronghorn rifle, hmm i'll have a 25-06, and a 270 (just cos Jack whatshisname had one), got to have a fag mag, cos everyone wants one, and bugger, gotta have 308, cos everybodys got one, and a 300wm, cos its faster, then a 338 win mag, maybe see an elk one day...and a 338 lap mag, dunno how far that elk will be?? now i've got all these guns,, theres still something missing,,, summot bigger,, yeah i always fancied one of them half inch things, what was it now, 50 BMG, whats BMG stand for anyway, Bugger Me what a Gun, yeah thats right..
Or maybe just buy a 450 marlin and a 30-06 for everything over 150m away,, pointless having a 308, it'll only sit in the safe( but my boy likes to shoot is so i'll keep it, and i can always rent it to hunters for 20 a day plus ammo..
Just thinking out loud and trying to talk my self out of the need for more guns and a bigger bloody gun safe, I'm failing miserably, now i want summot that looks like an M16... just cos i can still have one..
pete
Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 15:54:54 (ZULU)
Any of the Hodgdon 'Extreme' series of powders would be less temperature sensitive than comparable powders of similar burning rates from other manufacturers. As to your fagmag, it seems to me that your bore to case capacity is close to that of my .270W, so I have to agree with the suggestion of H4831SC - I get 3250Fps. MV with a 130gr NBT from a 24" bbl.
Hell, and all along I've been thinking that Bucephalus was a sailboat!
Treehugger,
If the Arab world loved us in the 1930's it was only because we liberated them from the Ottoman Empire (the Turks) at the conclusion of WWI. Remember that Palestine is an artificial State created by the British (as a result of above) and was occupied while the rest of the world tried to figure out what to do with it. That, of course, was rudely interrupted by the Nazis startind WWII.
Now speaking of the Nazis, the Arab world fell in love with fugitive Nazis in the late 1940's and attempted to use them to build and train their military. Yes, we harbored Nazi fugitives also, but they were OUR Nazis. You know - my vicious Pitbull is OK, and I keep him in a very secure Kennel, but their Pitbull is also vicious and is allowed to roam the streets at will - NOT OK!
After the Nazis found out that they could not live in an Islamic world and stay German (they went to South America), the Arab world had a long and fruitful love affair with the Soviet Union, who supplied them with most of the military equipment and the training doctrine that they still use today. Where do you think that the Kalashnikovs, RPG's, MiG's, and tanks came from - the USA?
The Arab world are merely common whores, in love with whichever pimp is keeping them high at the moment! So f**k 'em.
BTW, the reference to moccasins was an attempt to draw a parallel between the old adage attributed to the American Indian and the 'know your enemy' of your post. "You can't know a man 'til you waly a mile in his moccasins". Ugh!
And why should we not support the State of Isreal? I can't remember Nazis and Soviet Communists ever being their invited guests! The Israeli's have been our only constant friends and allies in the Mid-East since 1948.
Shooting note!!,
Considering ANY .22 centerfire for varmints, if you don't have an accurate .223 (Mini-14's need not apply) you owe it to yourself to get one. Learn it, use it, THEN maybe fill in around it!
Scope and mount question,
Very recently received an e-mail from CDNN advertising 4x24 Hensoldt STANAG scopes with .223 reticle, also Blits
STANAG mounts, both supposedly US SF issue, for sale. I know that Hensoldt is a German brand, but know nothing about this particular model, nor do I know anything about a Blits mount. Yes, I do know what STANAG means;-)) Can anybody out there give me a heads up on this stuff? How about Master Rick?
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 17:20:42 (ZULU)
John: Was that quip about shooting and writing directed at me or at that ding-dong Mark Morford? I doubt Morford would know which end of the gun to point at his foot.
Kevin: Yes, ox- or bull-headed, depending on the translation. Have you heard the story of how Bucephalus was tamed?
Alan: Thanks for clarification on the moccasins quip. Thought that might have been it.
Alan and Brogers: I suggest you look more closely at the 'tween wars, non-military history. Both Arabs and Persians offered us friendship on several occasions. We threw it away, choosing instead to undermine several attempts at democratic governments because those nascent governments did not feel our expolitation of their oil was in their best interests. For some reason, they no longer trust us. Who'd have thought it?
Brogers: 1) I tossed Morford's article out for the amusement value and to get people thinking. If you look at my later postings, you will find that I refered the person who sent me that link to the replies posted here. 2) I suggest you take poli-sci 101. Democracy and capitalism are two different animals, often found in the same habitat but not inextricably linked. One does not necessarily fall because the other does. 4) Who pays for the military? Don't get too self-rightous and defensive of our corporations. We all pay taxes, even liberals. 5) Are you calling me two-faced about being a liberal who shoots? Saying that because I hold a different opinion than you that I can't talk guns? Nice to get a graphic example of your support for the 1st Amendment as well as the 2nd. 6) If you don't like it that I change the subject because some people on a shooting site want to talk shooting instead of the politics we're currently farting at each other, you have my email address to continue the rant of your choice.
That being said, I repost my question: Does anyone have a favorite source for 1920s pistol parts? I have an Ortgies in need of a new .380 barrel.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 19:31:54 (ZULU)
Steve, you gonna burn powder in the morning?
The Howa keeps geting better and better......more on that later, I gotta go to roll call and get ready to make the city safe for democracy and Krispy Kreme donuts.
Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 20:15:31 (ZULU)
Go with H4831SC for your fagmag. That is what I use and shot it all year around without any trouble. I used 53 to 54 grains depending on the case lot (I have to different lots of Norma brass)with the 140AMAX and a Federal primer. This load puts me right at 2980 to 3000fps. out of a 26" barrel.
I tried other powders and they shot well also but went with the extreme powder so I would not have to worry about temp. I have also found that the AMAXs are a tad faster with the same load than the 142s for some reason.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 20:26:38 (ZULU)
A major portion of a snipers job is the gathering of intelligence. We're not at all like Tom Berringer;-) You have no idea how many mysteries of contemporary history could be solved or explained here should some folks divulge what they've sworn to keep secret!
The Persians, and the Arab world, were wooed both by the US and the Soviets after WWII. Besides oil, the Soviets had a large geopolitical interest in keeping countries sharing their borders in their sphere of influence.Our interests dictated that we keep them out. Pahlavi was our dictator, and it was in our interest to ensure that he was in power rather than the Soviets Communist puppets. It wasn't until radical Islamic fundamentalism gained a stronghold that Pahlavi was booted out. There was no "noble" Iranian faction just waiting for the US to come calling. It was the Monarchy vs. the Politbureau!
European colonialism had a whole lot more effect on the Arab countries after WWII than the US ever had. Great Britain saw the light in the post-war Mid-East by divesting themselves of their former colonies a quickly as it was practical for them to do so. Not only did the US push very hard for the old colonial powers to get out of the empire business, but Britain, for one, was financially bankrupt due to the cost of fighting WWII and couldn't even afford them any longer. France, on the other hand, dreamed of returning to its pre-war colonial glory, and demanded our help in regaining their holdings both in the Arab lands and in French-Indochina (later Vietnam). Ho Chi Minh had made overtures to the French in Paris to allow him to form a friendly government in VN. They turned him down flat - can you say rubber? Can you spell Michelin? Ho then approached the US, where his idea was welcomed with enthusiasm. When France beacme aware of this plan, they threatened to withold membership in NATO, and wanted to deny their airspace to their other "allies" in Europe. Can you visualize the Berlin Blockade?
During those days it was more important for our interests to insure a strong united front in Western Europe and we naturally played the hand that was dealt us. The first law of survival dictates that you take care of your own first. SO WHY DO ALL OF THE LIBERALS, LEFTISTS, SOCIALISTS, CRYBABIES, AND SELF-HATING RESIDENTS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY INSIST THAT WE SACRIFICE OUR OWN AND SUPPORT THE PEOPLE THAT REPEATEDLY BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM?
If anybody believes this "Noble Muslim" bullshit that passes for the truth in our mainstream Universities they must also believe that Fidel Castro is the saviour of the Cubans, and that Salvador Allende was really helping the Chilean people.
I could go on and on - but I won't!
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 20:47:37 (ZULU)
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 21:14:26 (ZULU)
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 21:44:02 (ZULU)
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 21:55:28 (ZULU)
Just a bit of advice, get back to discussing rifles or snipey related topics. And aye, I'm singlin you out for your own good..
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 22:37:56 (ZULU)
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 22:51:00 (ZULU)
5) Are you calling me two-faced about being a liberal who shoots? Saying that because I hold a different opinion than you that I can't talk guns? Nice to get a graphic example of your support for the 1st Amendment as well as the 2nd. 6) If you don't like it that I change the subject because some people on a shooting site want to talk shooting instead of the politics we're currently farting at each other, you have my email address to continue the rant of your choice.
*None of the above ever happened. Those are your own words. Let me make up my own insults please.
And by the way, I don't get into off line rants. If it's not worth argueing in public it ain't worth my time.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 22:59:01 (ZULU)
I have never heared of that pistol. It probably isn't common, therefore parts may be hard to find.
Numrich or Brownells may have them. Possibly Sarco may know of a supplier for it.
The only regime in the mid-east that ever really liked us was the Shah of Iran. Because we supported his imperialist ambitions (Iranians are Persians and there is a line of bad blood with them and the Arabs)and the Shah loved the American dollar(nobody loves us for free). We liked him because he sold us cheap oil and it give us an ally in the region that was at the USSR's doorstep. We could have stepped in and prevented the overthrow and averted the hostage crisis had we not been so Carterized (no pun intended),just like giving up the Panama Canal.
I realize that we propped up the Houdinies, but bin Laden is getting resupplied from somewhere. I don't think the Russian or Chinese governments are selling to him directly. North Korea I'd believe is, as well as Iran, Syria, Iraq, and the PLO. They are not leaving any apparent evidence for obvious reasons.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program. (We can discuss this over e-mail if you wish.)
Kenton knobs;
I'm considering a Kenton elevation knob. Does anyone have anything to comment about it? Seems like a good idea.
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 00:05:33 (ZULU)
Alan, Alan, Alan- Stop with the labels. Their use greatly diminishes any message you hope to impart. You paint with a brush that is far too wide. If you were an artist, it could only be of the "modern" variety. I can see the titles now, "green spot on yellow background"; " blue on white"; "white on blue". Need I go on? The WORLD and this country are not that easily categorized. Your social and political theories are just that- "YOURS". Please feel free to hold on to them, but spare us.
As far as "SELF-HATING RESIDENTS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY" go you must be the captain of the team. Your comments SHIT on every principal that makes this country great. Think about the word "nuance"- go look it up. Open your mind, read a different newspaper, read a few books, and stop listening to Rush.
Now I know that there will be the obligatory comments about "closet liberal", save it. There must be a website out there that is divoted to discussing political theory and world affairs - go find it.
Every one of you needs to take a look at the name of this website.
Is it any surprise why so many former regulars are not posting anymore? Is it? When was the last time that there was a thread that had any relevance and substance? I give up.
Bill- If not BB's how 'bout the futuristic .17 RUM? Anyting Please
Rod
Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 00:28:27 (ZULU)
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 01:02:05 (ZULU)
We have a set as a prize for ASC# 2. One competitor will be very happy.
Rod
Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 01:29:35 (ZULU)
Rod: Impressed by accounts of .17, but not yet ready to buy one. Seems too purpose specific (long-range varminting) to me. I like versatility. Want to hear more, though.
A gentleman told me I was on thin ice, so I'm shutting up about history and politics on thread. Sorry Brogers.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 01:38:09 (ZULU)
S M E A C (I don't belive this has changed) complete mission; return Unscathed.
If you don't know the meaning of "S M E A C" Ask any old infantry salt they will tell you.
Just making your "ONE VOTE" count
Semper FI
Bomac <biker3@Earthlink.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 02:26:27 (ZULU)
Watch yourself with H4831SC. I have had great luck with it, but my standard load works great until it hits about 100 on the range, then it spatters the primer cup and I've pieced two primers. That's with 50.5gr over a 9 1/2M.
I was getting great MV with it as well. 50.5gr was netting me 2980 on a hot day (80* plus) but the new bottle is running over 150fps slower. I bumped the load up to 51.6gr and I'm still only at 2835. My standard 50.5 is only ruinning 2750fps. I think either I got a dud lot, or they slowed the powder down to burn closer to what H4831 burns at. I should have suspected something when my 1K come up went from 24 to 28moa when I switched bottles, but it was still shooting so damn good,, I fingured the hell with it.
As it is, RL22 is running faster than the H4831SC by a long shot. I'm getting 2935fps with 51.6gr RL22 and a 215M primer. No pressure at 72*F. We'll see when it hits 95*....
No free lunch with this caliber I'm affraid, but certainly worth the effort. If only all the powders were as consistant lot to lot as Varget....
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K mathc at AEDC, March 16th. , WCRC's HSTM 3 gun tactical match has been rescheduled for May 10,11. If you're not locked down due to Mothersday,, come on out and shoot., Get with me for details and drive directions. - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 03:04:58 (ZULU)
She said she realizes that her husband died "among his family." She also feels that she now has 5 big brothers...and she pretends to be brave--but you can see the pain in her eyes. She is 22.
Guys, sending packages over there is easy. Pick your favorite deployed division, then go to it's website.
http://www.army.mil/A-Z.htm is a list of all army webpages.
Pick a Battalion, link over, pick a company, and link over. Get the First Sergeant's name (or just write "First Sergeant" or Commander on the name line--but it may not make it thru). Next lines are:
company/ battalion
Divison
APO Army Europe 09889 (Kuwait)
It is strongly advised to use a name on the address line...some (not all) webpages still have that info. Enclose a note asking them to distribute the goodies to thier soldiers or Marines. Hint: Copenhagen in the cardboard cans (stateside package) is always well recieved!!!! The plastic cans sold overseas tastes like formaldahyde. heheh. Old paperbacks, jerky, sunflower seeds, and nuts are always in demand. Homemade cookies are cool, but these days the terror threat makes that unwise unless you know them personally already. Stay with store packaged stuff for "any soldier" type mail. A personal note of thanks to read aloud to the platoon--well, that is priceless. That alone will do wonders for morale. They are watching CNN in the tents at the staging areas. And they are watching protest coverage. A word of support will undo all that BS and raise morale.
I think that is an outstanding contribution to this endeavor. More than some may understand. Do it, guys. Once I go, I will post my address and get stuff out too. But I have some AT seminars to hit first. Grin.
Joe M.
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Columbia, South Carolina, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 03:52:52 (ZULU)
Joe, tough job but you're a good man! 22 is a bad time to go through something like that, geees.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 04:17:14 (ZULU)
Brogers: Some other time for certain. *grin!* Redhawk? You lost me.
Joe: Good man! 22? Ah cricky. That's way too young.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 04:33:08 (ZULU)
Peace rally in Indy saturday. Bad scene...But I was reminded of a similar protest by the loonies at Devens in December 1990 (Bush's war for oil--same damn signs still). It seems that some forty of the protesters' autos parked along the woodline across from the main gate were missing both back wheels at the conclusion of their little chant-session. I imagine they got pretty far down the Nashua river...
They claim that it is the "American way" to debate issues. Has anyone tried to debate these fools? A debate implies reasoned argument, not name calling--right?
Now I will tell you that my troops are affected by this. It bums them out that a few get played on the news leaving the impression that "protests" are the norm. It is a drag on morale. And they deny this, but I will tell you that it has a negative effect on those in uniform. There is a time and a place for dissent--and once the troops have deployed--it is no longer the time and place. It is time to close ranks and if you don't like it--start planning for the next election. To do otherwise is to provide aid and comfort to the enemy--and THAT IS UN-AMERICAN. Yes, they have a first ammendment right to say whatever--but some things said are just un-Amaerican--and no rationalization will change that.
Say? Has anyone heard from Jane Fonda lately? Now that would be interesting to hear her take...
Care packages shopping suggestions:
No porn. It'll get a kid into big-time SOFA trouble.
TP is bulky, and easy to get--use the cubes for something else.
Get a classroom full of thank-yous from a bunch of second-graders
We like to know you, so return address the box so we can say thanks!
AA batts are always scarce.
Send a disposable camera and be surprised by amazing photos someday
Gold bond powder
A properly folded US Flag will fly from the antenae of the lead vehicles to clebrate victory...
Sunblock and lip balm
No alcohol...damn!
writing paper for newbies who forget such stuff, envelopes too.
If you got them, send old hair clippers (some units still have hand-ops--but all units have a generator)
Cheap non-fadish sunglasses (black lens/ frames)
cutter or off bugspray. The valley has fleas and skeeters!
Chewing gum--sugary kid-stuff kind
Green Duct tape and electrical tape
Jolly Ranchers
dried fruit
summer sausage
Mags (sports, motorcycle, truckin' etc...)
playing cards
pringles
etc.
Joe M.
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 04:53:23 (ZULU)
Thanks for the off-topic on Alexander. That wasn't first-hand knowledge, was it?
Joe
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 05:04:44 (ZULU)
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 05:08:30 (ZULU)
Just who in the fuck do you think you are? It looks like you've taken it upon yourself to become the content moderator of this site, as well as to invite me to leave and go somewhere else to post my comments. A newbie opens up a can of worms and you pronounce from your perch, high on bullshit mountain, what you deem acceptable to be seen on this site.
Don't you ever even attempt to order me, or anyone else on this sight, to conform to your list of accepted behaviors! If the Council tells me to go away I will certainly respect their wishes, because this is their ballgame, not yours. If you disagree with anything I say you have all the right in the world to disagree, and to do it in public.
You've been talking Constitution out of the right side of your mouth while repression of opposing thoughts comes out of the left. People come and go for different reasons and to blame only our posts on political positions is one hell of a leap of faith on your part. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, don't let your inflated sense of self importance get in my way! We may find out if you're really the "GatorBird" that some call you. I'm telling you - DON'T FUCK WITH ME! Let the children play, teacher. Or they just might eat you! Like ol' 'yote bait, I'm not inclined to take this off site. Do it in front of God and everybody, or don't do it at all!
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 05:35:53 (ZULU)
Rod,
I think the threads have been more political lately because there is a sense of anxiety over getting this campaign started. It's what's on everyone's minds.
I'm here in Jock-land, they are great folk, don't get me wrong, I'd lie down in traffic for the lot, but they're not Yanks, are they. So a lot of the time, I'm just poppin in to breathe a little bit of home, keeps me grounded..
Should have the 'Mystery Machine' van loaded and pointed towards IWA in about 4 hours. Imagine I'll have plenty of snipey/equipment related topics and an off topic story or two when I get back. Will be a good time. Youse guys have a good one as well. Maybe by then we'll be kickin some ass..
Pete, Jon, we'll see ya there..
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Nuremburg or Bust!!, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 06:07:28 (ZULU)
I'm going to take some time off work this noon and drive up to the city and get some reloading supplies. I've got to decide between RL22 and H4831SC for powder and I guess I'll get some magnum rifle primers. 215M I figure.
Could my wide variation in velocities be from using standard large rifle primers? We'll see I guess.
I was thinking of a great marketing tool and new product for the powder companies. You know how the breakfast cereal makers pack twelve little boxes of a selection of their products in one pack. What if the powder manufacturers did something like that with 1/4 pound samples of their various powders. It sure makes sense to me.
I got the rest of my Lapua brass yesterday so I'm good-to-go for the season as soon as I figure out what the load is going to be.
Ref: Alexander's Horse
Joe, that's not first hand knowledge on my part. I was too young at the time to remember Alexander but my parents told me about him. ;-)
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 09:57:47 (ZULU)
i posted that i was looking to buy a heavy barreled gun, do to them being more accurate at longer ranges. the reply said that the heavy barrel was only more accurate due to it being slower to heat build up in multiple shots, and that a sporter barrel is just as accurate on "cold shot" performance. (long range varmint application)
Besides heat build up, isnt a heavy barell just plain stiffer, and more resistant to vibration than a sporter barrel, and therefore more inherently accurate?
Question 2: Heavy artillery - what do they use to set off the charge on the big aretillery pieces, that are breech loaded with bags of powder? ie what do they use for a primer? (a navy 15" gun for instance)
thanks
Rob
rob rat <rratvask@tricountyi.net>
central, pa, usa - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 11:40:51 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 11:45:48 (ZULU)
It snowed again here in the Alleghenies last night, the horses are fed, and I've got a pot of coffee on, so, I have all day..Lets start with the ideal SWS for LE, followed by your opinions on calling Eastern 'yotes, how you feel about Glocks/1911s, belly guns, long vs. short barrels, 308 vs 300WM, or Mk4M3s. Or, you pick the subject! I'm just a dumb ole country boy and politics and pissing matches make my head hurt..
As to the "challenge" of liking to load the Hornet, or anything else:::
I hate to load ammo and have always used the anology of cutting firewood; If you still enjoy it you haven't probably HAD to do enough of it. Dillons ease the pain, but not by much.
Lighten up guys
outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Safely ensconced in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 13:40:55 (ZULU)
Are there any that really stand out above the rest?...or more importantly, any brand or model I should avoid?
Not interested in alot of fancy features, just accuracy and reliability really. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
JB
John Bechtell <ajbechtell@yahoo.com>
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 13:50:04 (ZULU)
You can buy their stand kit for $50 or you can go out and try to find some photographer's light stands cheap.
PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
upstate, sc, US of A - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 13:57:53 (ZULU)
John, this was for you RE: Chronographs.
The lightstands are used to hold the rail that you put the sky screens on.
PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
upstate, sc, US of A - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 14:01:57 (ZULU)
Ok so I called em Jerks! It was only because that was the mildest word I could think of so don't put me down as a homophobe. I'm an "old" homophobe so get it right you Liberal Jerks. That's a joke Jerks! Seriously.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 14:20:24 (ZULU)
Anyone ever notice how much hatred and bile gets spewed by the red diaper doper babies? If I ever spoke publicly about their patron saint, Former President Clinton, I would be condemned loudly.
It really saddens me to realize that communism is alive and well here in the US, since anything the left disagrees with is obviously fueled by "corporate" ie, captilaist interest. That's okay, If President Bush decided to invade NK tomorrow, the left would rejoice and support him because NK is a greater threat than Saddam? Right, they lost congress, they are fixin', for you Texicans, to lose the power of juidicial activism, and the only response is shrill, hateful, unthinking vitriol spewed at a man who truly has the best interest of the nation in mind.
Rant off, council feel free to delete if the politics is getting out of hand.
Steve Burris
Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 14:25:54 (ZULU)
The war on terrorism, troops deployed in harms way, aggressive US foreign policy...these are things I strive to understand because it is my job as a US citizen....recently, all have also impacted my life directly.
I have my doubts about the situation in the gulf... I voted for GB jr and I am hoping he has this situation figured out... I have friends in the 82nd who I would very much like to see come home. I'm not sure what we are doing is the right thing... I'm absolutely certain that doing nothing is the wrong thing....The US needs to respond to the terror threat, it's just a question of how and where....
Bottom line on this... I think this discussion does belong on a site dedicated to the use and understanding of deadly force.
As for the loss of contributors.....
I'm an expert on a subject not related to this site... I spend some of my time sharing with those that do not yet know what I know. If I did it for recognition, ego stroking, etc, I would have quit long ago... I do it because I wish there was someone there when I was learning the basics...someone that could have pushed me that much further. I figure the folks that left are either busy doing other work (in the sand perhaps), or they just didn't appreciate the rewards associated with openly sharing knowledge with those less accomplished in their field of expertise. (trust me... no loss in the long term... complacency ultimately kills every one of those "experts", continuous learning requires you give back at a certain level of accomplishment...)
Treehugger - This is a somewhat conservative site... if you pick one subject, express YOUR opinion, support YOUR opinion and keep it civil, I believe you will have a constructive exchange. To date, your actions have been received by me as less constructive than most.
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 14:43:04 (ZULU)
A very sad Sarge!
Out
Sarge <Sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 15:23:34 (ZULU)
Now these wonderful, been pissed on by the US, folks have a saying "Women are for breading and boys are for fun" That to me is just plain sick. I say take Michael Jackson with you on a vacation over there if you find so much fault with the US.
WE OWE THE ARAB WORLD JACK SHIT!
Rod, your a good man, sober up and get off Alans back. Many of us regulars have been busy getting ready for the Arab World.
Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 15:36:16 (ZULU)
Barron Moreland <bmoreland@sc.rr.com>
Cayce, SC, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 16:00:44 (ZULU)
Treehugger - hope you have thick skin....
Now actual rifle stuff: Hogs - I've been busy in the background helping out the folks at Iron Brigade Armory. I'm no where near a fully qualified gun builder - especially a Chandler Sniper. I help out where I can - part time at best. Talk about an eye for detail. There's a reason those riffles aren't cheap. There's all kinds of other gun related work in play as well.
Anyhow - we have a handful of extra McMillan stocks that we're looking to move. Selling stocks direct alll the time is not the intent here ... just wanting to move those extras. Click on my name or go to:
http://www.snipercountry.net/forsale/Display_Message.asp?Message=0000006443.txt
Other stuff - Stateside folks: if you don't have your heart in America - then get your ass out!
Even tho I don't post much - I visit when I can and try to keep an eye on snipercountry and make sure it's on the air. Been at it since - uh - well not sure (getting as old as Sarge and can't remember), but anyhow... you all take care out there.
take care hogs.... Semper Fi
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 16:01:39 (ZULU)
Ladies and Gents, the fact of the matter is that life is hard. This is set in stone and will not change, no matter what you try and do. The sooner you accept this, the sooner life will get easier(note: not easy)
We in the US have been very soft, for quite a while. Now it's time to be hard again. It's going to take lots of killing, and it's going to look like we're clubbing baby seals. It's going to LOOK bad. However, in the long term, it's going to save lives. Not just American lives, which are the only lives I care about, but even enemy lives. By killing a few people now, we won't have to kill a shitload of people later. We will have to kill, that's just how it is. The liberals and others living in fantasy land need to get it through their thick skulls that weakness only invites attack. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS!!!!!!
Folks, those in the US live in the greatest nation on earth. We are and will be assailed by all sides. They're wrong, we are right. Never believe anything else. Loyalty is key. All this meaningless shit about right and wrong might be worth something if there was some higher authority to appeal to, but there isn't. God isn't going to get personally involved with this one. We have to settle this one for ourselves. Do you want the world to look like America, or look like Saudia Arabia or some other 3rd world shithole? If you have not been to a 3rd world shithole, you don't get a vote because you don't know what you're voting on. That's just a fact. Sorry, but caring about people's feelings is a luxury I don't have anymore. Just because a lot of people believe something stupid does not make it true. The only problem with democracy is that it relies on educated people who make rational decisions, something which we increasingly lack. God bless. Semper Fidelis...Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 16:06:20 (ZULU)
Thanks All
Pat
Pat <patncindy@iglide.net>
Idaho, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 16:56:13 (ZULU)
I thought the article author was a friend/acquaintence of Huggies and wondered about his skills. I understand now that it was forwarded to him from a fellow shooter. You both are gifted orators, but the comment was aimed at the Mark fellow.
Kevin,
At one of the .50 cal. matches last year a competitor kept his ammo boxes in a sealed cooler right next to him on the line. He added a cold pak from the med kit. It was 95 plus on the grass. His ammo was actually frosting as he loaded. You might want to try the military CCI primers. I've tried 'em in the M14 and they are reasonably consistant. Not as much as 210M's but close.
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:02:46 (ZULU)
Nice to see ya poppin' in mang. As usual,, to the point and on target.
Have ya had a chance to fire that new 280AI yet? I'm still kickin' around the 284win w/156 VLD's or a 7-300WSM with 180's. I'm also curious as to what you think you'll get for usable barrel life with the AI....
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:04:25 (ZULU)
Sarge, E-mail inbound regarding old unit.
Medic Jim: If it wasn't for the "old-timers" who share knowledge, most new guys would fall by the wayside, washout or never survive. That is a fact in the real world, military service and life in general. It is appreciated even when no feedback is received, and like you stated the rewards to the instructor are not always obvious. But I can also understand the frustration of attempting to share knowledge with folks who constantly question the validity or always second guess the facts of someone else experience or results. That happens a lot here. Some query is necessary, to validate results. But I am pretty sure those who are not contributing anymore are still here, just viewing and watching the show!
I thank every contributor for their contribution to this site. I have learned much here, and I use this site as a reference daily!
Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:11:05 (ZULU)
As to LE we can not do the research for you, legally that is.
Undude
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:13:33 (ZULU)
Thanks. I don't want to get any of my LEO friends in trouble so I won't even ask. I am trying to follow-up on contacts in the town where he grew-up to find out about the "early years" but am struggling with this felony conviction thing. I believe it was in Phoenix AZ so do I just call the local PD for information or is there a web site with court information I can search in, or go to the DA department? I am sorry but I am completely and totally new to this. Not something I really want to get good at.
Pat
Pat <patncindy@iglide.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:32:24 (ZULU)
Ken M. I have been to third werld shit holes and, well, I like them, some of them. They can be real fun ;) I would not want the US of A to become that way. The American folks have not become soft. Well alot have but it is due to the Profs at our higher education facilities spouting off thier own hippie peace movement crap. And not having a mandatory 2 year hitch with the Big Green Fightin Machine. These folks can not have an infomed opinon cause they have not experience crap on thier own. They were told this and told that by a bunch of freakin hippie types. If I were king of America we would have no enemies and a lot more unoccupied territory due to my use of the Neutron bomb. Damn good thing I aint in charge, huh? Or is it?
I have been busy showing a dog so aint been burning powder. My boy won (Winners Dog) Saterday at the show in San Antonio. The judge was the same person who judged the sporting group at the most recent Westminster Show. I'm happy as a puppy with two peckers.
On the new WSM's I don't see the advantage to the 223 WSM but haven't seen the use of big bullets in it as of yet so can not real come to any conclussions on it. The 243 WSM may be the way to go for a playing stick. I guess time will tell if you bums would go buy one and wring it out for us poor bums we would have results faster.
Dirty Steve, Out
Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:45:51 (ZULU)
Great idea on the 'Kellogs' powder pack! It got me thinking. How about a bullet assortment also? Like ten or twenty rounds each of several bullets in .308, .223, .264, etc. This would be real handy, especially with bullets like Sierra's specialty line. I can't afford to spend over seventy bucks for a five hundred box just to see if the 77gr. SMK (for example) will shoot in one of my rifles!
Chris,
A 7-.300WSM? Don't they already make the 7WSM? Or did I read your post wrong?
Chronographs,
I have to give a strong second to the 35P. Tried the rest and had various problems, bought the Oehler, now have the best. May I suggest the optional 4ft. long mounting rail.
Media habits,
FYI, I don't listen to Rush, read only the local newspaper, and never watch the news on network tv. All that crap makes me a candidate for an anger management class! And I can direct my anger all by my self, thank you;-)
Mike Miller,
Very well said! I can't seem to get the point across without getting crude.
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:52:11 (ZULU)
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Fl, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 18:01:27 (ZULU)
Oh yes, I've had some primer problems with VARGET where air space is envolved. The mag primers are worth a try, that's what fixed mine.
Alan; your approach is appreciated by the folk like me. Crude is in style if that's what you call it.
Mike hows the knee?
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 18:11:35 (ZULU)
I'm glad to see that you're posting again - seriously! You should understand my position, however, as to healthy debate vs. personal attacks.
When someone posts here about a subject that (generic) you think is lacking in facts and/or logic, and you would like to correct him or question his information, by all means go at it! The problem that I have is when someone questions the right of another to post on any subject he wishes to.
When you say that a particular subject doesn't belong on this site, and that the author should find a different site for his post you are inviting him to leave the site, which can only be done by the Council. This is why the first thing that comes into my mind when someone criticizes one of my off topic posts is to inform the complainant that I will continue to post whatever I choose, and that if they don't like it they can just scroll by, or they can leave the Roster if it gets too bad, but I, personally do not have the right or authority to ask, or demand, that they leave the site!
If one were to go way back in the archives, that person might be very surprised at the varied off topic content and the large amount of it. We've discussed and argued the merits of trucks and autos, food (and even how to spell it), women, wives, girlfriends, sisters, green Pintos and cookies, education, current events, movies and tv programs, whiskey, beer, foreign countries, jokes, tall tales, occupations, personal injuries and tradgedies, dogs, cats, sheep, politics, the Constitution, history, and how the chicks dig Sain.
I question the motives of anyone who complains that any given post is off topic and shouldn't appear on the Roster, without complaining about every single post not having to do with the Sniper. Perhaps our complainant has an extra thin area of skin pertaining to that particular subject. Maybe that person wants to "test the water" by responding to a poster whom they think may be an easy mark. It's been repeated here many times that if you don't have a thick skin maybe you shouldn't be here. Know thine enemy should probably be right up there.
As to taking it personal, I don't respond in kind. Throw a barb at me, and I'll probably return an SMK. Attempt to chastize me for not agreeing with you, without facts and good reason, and my response will not be very genteel, to say the least.
And yes, I did take a previous post of yours as an attempt at censorship of Roster content. Go back and read it again if you have to. The inhabitants of our world are not at all a shy bunch! They'll speak up when necessary.
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 18:56:32 (ZULU)
you read me correctly, regarding the 7-300WSM. My rational for necking down a 300WSM Parant case is two fold.
1. Norma now makes 300WSM brass, which is superior to the winchetser brass.
2. The neck on the 7WSM case is shorter than the 300/270 vaiants. In an attempt to have a long neck, allowing both additional case capacity AND more burn in the case (I said supposedly, didn't I??) I'll neck the 300WSM brass down and get both.
Now,, I HATE neck turning, but I figure a quick reame after I run it over a 283 mandrel will solve any doughnut problemos... so,, I can have the best of all worlds. Get my chamber reamer spec'd out and built off a loaded round and walla....
Now,, All I need to do is decide whether or not I can stand the recoil of the 180. If I'm not going to use 178 to 180gr Pills, I might as well take a couple hundred of the several hundred 6.5x284 cases I have with expanded pockets, Size the rim back down, reame the pockets and neck them up to 284 with a K&M. Then, load a dumby and send it off to Dave kiff to work his majic. Then I get NO neck turning,,, which is as Martha Stewert says, "is a good thing." :))
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 19:36:39 (ZULU)
One more thing. Do not recommend more education to me! Only because it pisses me off!
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 19:37:06 (ZULU)
But why not strive to keep it civil? "Don't f**k with me?" Is that a response intended to stimulate good debate? Tactfully sell you side of the story without the insults and you will be perceived the better man!
I think our earlier run-in was based on my poor wording of a sentence that read and interpreted differently than I meant. We discussed that. Water under the bridge.
Les
Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 19:56:33 (ZULU)
I'm back and I've got a pound of Reloader 22, 1,000 Federal 215M primers and a 8# jug of Varget. My plan is to load 51 grains of RL22 with my 139 grain Scenars lit by a 215M. I sure hope this leads to a conclusion. I hate load development. It seems like such a waste of time and resources. If I hit the lotto I'm going to give away my reloading gear and buy Black Hills by the pallet.
Ref: Ammunition in a Cooler
If I ever tried that ammo in a cooler trick Andy would punk-slap me and drag me to the car. The boy was raised on the writings of Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith, the Holy Bible and the Ranger Handbook. I've created a "Junior Lord of Discipline". He's quick to say, "Dad, that's not practical." or "Jeeez Dad, that A2 stock is a friggin' canoe paddle." I started to complain about the cold wet weather at Storm Mountain once and he scowled at me and said, "Heck Dad, this here is Ranger weather. If it ain't rainin' you ain't trainin'." I love that boy but he does wear on me at times. ;-)
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 20:12:10 (ZULU)
When an "expert's" sensibilities reach that point that they are simply too wonderful to tolerate the masses, they are on the downward slide into self absorbtion... I've seen it before. When it involves a life or death skill, men die.
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 20:20:52 (ZULU)
Thanks for the update on the H4831SC. I had went through a couple of pound cans and most of an 8lb keg but it was all pretty consistant.
I will need to buy another keg here shortly and will keep that in mind. I never had any trouble with mine as far as temp. went (So far anyway) but will watch it.
Kevin..
Never had trouble with the Fed standard primers for my 6.5x284. I had a very low ES and SD with my loads. I know yotebait has had good luck with the magnum primers when he has run into problems so it may be worth a look too.
Alan & Rob..
You guys play nice with one another!! A lot of us don't post a lot because theres not much shooting related things to talk about and some of us don't like to argue politics an religion. I think its just that time of year!! We shouldn't bite each other, were all on the same side here.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 20:34:28 (ZULU)
51.3gr RL22 was getting me 3015fps even with 215M's and 142SMK's in a 30" Border. SD was 9 day one, and 14 day two. MV dropped to 3000fps with a 30 degree temp drop.(day 2)
51.3 gives me 2915 in a 26" Rock barrel. Same SD's, same drop in MV with temp.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 20:37:13 (ZULU)
Ken: Skin's plenty thick. I think that's why Brogers, Alan, and Undude/Mike want to turn it into a fireplace rug. <grin> Thanks for asking, though.
John: Yes, that article was forwarded to me, but no, not by a shooter. They got an earful when I sent them the link to SC, too!
MedicJim: In response to your comment that my opinions have been unconstructive...
Just so you all know, I feel bad about starting such a ruckus when I originally posted that link for the purposes of humor. Yes, I love getting people thinking, and yes, I love jerking chains, but that article was so over the top it struck me as a parody of far-left extremism. When people replied to it seriously, I replied seriously to them, badly underestimating the level of rancour. Mea culpa.
Yes, this is typically a fairly conservative site; I knew this when I signed on. I came here for information on shooting and stayed for the atmosphere of candor. You all know I disagree with many of you about the finer points of politics, international policy, sociology, etc. But I don't come in here with my mind closed to opinions, and while I usually continue to disagree with you after the dust settles, I do remember what you said and it does broaden my perspective. I hope that you will accord me the same respect. I might not be able to put "SF" at the end of my post, but I think my own time in the Middle East, and that I'm third generation sandwalker, albeit all civilians, may make up for the fact I can only put "FF/EMT" after my name.
My apologies for the discontent I have cast among you. While I will not stray from my own ideological path merely to meet your wishes, I will attempt to tread more gently. If for no other reason than the subsequent fallout detracts from the offerings of shooting wisdom.
Speaking of which, my wife inherited a Remington 721, but the last four or five inches of the barrel are bent. I'm sure someone out there has an opinion on the best replacement. Thoughts, anyone?
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 21:04:54 (ZULU)
"Speaking of which, my wife inherited a Remington 721, but the last four or five inches of the barrel are bent. I'm sure someone out there has an opinion on the best replacement. Thoughts, anyone?"
You're best bet is to convince her that she needs to send it to GA Precision for a "Rebuild", and get yourself a nice rifle made up....
simple huh... ;)))
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 21:16:08 (ZULU)
danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 21:51:52 (ZULU)
I'm an active duty Navy Chief who is a frequent reader and seldom poster, but have gotten off my arse to cheer up an incredible trainining facillity. It has been my privilege and honor to have spent the last month at the BLACKWATER training center. The ability of their instructors to ramp up individuals into real time fight scenarios is amazing. They are both highly professional and dedicated to the task at hand. If anyone has even considered attending on of their training sessions I would say do not hesitate. They are a first rate facillity and treat all students on a person to person basis. I have witnessed members of most of the SPECOP/SOCOM groups, every government alphabet soup group, down to the novice in the weeks spent training their and no students were left to want. For that, I thank them and wish to publicly commend them for a "JOB WELL DONE". Their is a link to their website under hot links on this web page and it would behove all who are able to attend regardless of level of knowledge.
That said: on the matter of politics on this site. The hardest thing I have ever had to do was listen to someone bash America in the 17 yrs I have served. As long as they don't become active " burn the flag and I'll kick your ass then get locked up for violating your rights" it's sucks, but I provided your freedom along with every other service member/cop/firefighter/medic in this country. Personally however Undude said it best:
WE OWE THE ARAB WORLD JACK SHIT!
Mike has always had a way with words.
Chief out
Chief <dwightc11@msn.com>
USN, Va, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 22:46:39 (ZULU)
Then....... "John: Yes, that article was forwarded to me, but no, not by a shooter. They got an earful when I sent them the link to SC, too!"..........
Then......" Just so you all know, I feel bad about starting such a ruckus when I originally posted that link for the purposes of humor. Yes, I love getting people thinking, and yes, I love jerking chains, but that article was so over the top it struck me as a parody of far-left extremism. When people replied to it seriously, I replied seriously to them, badly underestimating the level of rancour."
After......"It's pretty well written, and the points it argues are not without merit. Though I know I'll catch H--- for posting it here."
One just doesn't know whom to believe.....
At the risk of being crude, personal, and repetitous......
MORE HORSESHIT
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 23:01:41 (ZULU)
I wonder what else you got wrong?
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 23:55:37 (ZULU)
Dusty <dhamilton69@aol.com>
Monroe, LA, US of A - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 23:59:44 (ZULU)
MedicJim: The difficulty with words is that each sees something different. I apologize if I misrepresented your comment in my reply. And to reply to another good example of that...
Mark: The person who sent me that link is not so avid as any of us here. Yes, they go out to the range every now and then, but not, I imagine, as any of us do. I would guess that we all have friends like this, who could be described for convenience as one thing, but on consideration don't merit the dedication implied by that description. You illustrate well the hazzards of generalities and labels, at my expense. That's fine. Whatever.
Yes, the article does have some points of merit, and yes, it is well written. It is also completely over the top and pretty funny. I should have known better than to complicate the issue by thinking that people might look at it and say: "yeah, but... not like that!". As for knowing I'd catch h---, 1) I knew some people would go balistic and probably lump me in with Morford, I was just not prepared for quite the level of that response; 2) I'd say I was pretty right on, wouldn't you?
I shouldn't bother with explanations, seeing as you --and undoubtedly others-- have already decided that I'm full of s---, but your points deserved addressing. View me as you like, I won't bother trying to hold an untenable position. None of us here is out to convert anyone, we're all just tossing our two cents in.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 00:18:59 (ZULU)
http://www.marstar.ca/ortpps.htm
Click on my name to jump to the above URL
rod regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 00:42:41 (ZULU)
Treehugger, please post at least your first or last name like the rest of us. It always makes me wonder about people's intentions when they hide behind a handle.
Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 00:47:13 (ZULU)
"I came here for information on shooting and stayed for the atmosphere of candor."
I don't get to monitor or post much lately, but from what I have read, I call BS. You signed on with a log in name guaranteed to raise hackles with a bunch of hardheaded, conservative mil and LE types. Then post stuff that is, to put it politely, crap. This is not rocket science, I think you signed on to stir the pot. I am not going to rush to judgement, just wanted to share my thoughts. Treehugger you are NOT contributing to the cause. At this point, you smell like a troll to me. I would love to play but I am way too busy. I may be back and involved in another coupkle of months. In the meantime, any of you hawgs want to comment, please drop me an email.
Recent posts.....
Politics, well, there is a line there. However, as shooters, we are not going to get away from it. As many active duty and part time warriors as there are on this board, geopolitics is going to play a part, as is plain old war talk. It would be nice if some of the old heads would get a little more tolerant and work back in with some shooting topics. In three plus years of reading and occasional posting, I have about doubled my ability and knowledge. The postings, subjects, and conversations that led to that are not being posted anymore.
"Speaking of which, my wife inherited a Remington 721, but the last four or five inches of the barrel are bent. I'm sure someone out there has an opinion on the best replacement. Thoughts, anyone?"
Check the archives and links section before you ask your question, most answers to questions like "who makes the best barrel?" are in there. That is not meant to discourage interaction. Put it this way. You don't see me wasting my time trying to make friends at Democratic Underground. If that makes any sense.
Just my humble opinion. Sorry for the non-shooting post. Please return to you normal programming!
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 00:55:37 (ZULU)
Bolt: I see a lot of people here with nothing but handles, or names so tweaked to be convenient that they become little more than handles. And I did post my full name when I first started posting. A couple people even used that to do a websearch on me. Very polite, yes? Though they turned up not much more than the name of my boat, that felt suspiciously like intimidation --but I'll let that go. For those who missed it the first time, my offline name is Alexander Forbes. If anyone out there wants to know anything further, I'd prefer a direct question over a websearch. While I appreciate a sniper's ability to gather intelligence, on the web, from those I consider friendly (if ferocious) intellectual sparring partners, I revere respect a lot more than sneakiness.
Sorry Alan and Mark, I don't mean to get snitty, but that ticked me off a bit --on a personal rather than political level.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 01:15:23 (ZULU)
The next issue and this one chaps my hide is this feeling the US needs to pay for all the worlds food and welfare needs. I dont see it like that. I see helping someone up but not providing food for years to come. Sorry we cant afford to pay for everything and if that makes the Arab World hate us so be it.
This feeling of "I should be given a hand out" grabs me by the short hairs and pisses me off. This whole idea that money should be given to anyone that askes is crap of the stinky Afghanistan street variety. The other day I am limping along, on my broken leg, knee torn up, waiting for surgery(I am 43 years old, been shot, cut and have so much metal in me I am surprized when the metal detector does not go off at the airport. Nick nammed the "Bionic Man" by my troops I could qualify for a handicapped parking permit and have bene offered three medical retirements) when this 18 yard old strapping youth approaches and begs for money. I just look at him and he pleads he needs help because he is disabled. The kid is 5'8" and 240lbs. He needs to work his fat ass off and make some money. I say not today and he gets pissed off, yells a few choice words at me, like I owed it to him. Well lacking the desire to make a living also left him lacking the desire to take this old man on so he ran away. Giving to those that demand does not work. Botton line is we wont make friends with the Arab World by giving in.
On my Knee, I go in 19 March for the rebuild. Hopefully I can be up and running in a few months.
Dwight/Chief, good to hear from you. Hope all is well in your world. I am supposed to go to Pendelton and Coronado once healed. I will look you up, if you are not off defending us.
Mike/Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:13:57 (ZULU)
Tony
Tony Burkes <tburkes@sbcglobal.net>
Alvin, Tx, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:20:38 (ZULU)
As for the next issue that chaps your hide, I agree in general, and it is only the many admonitions I've had to shut the hell up that keep me from leaping into that detail-rich fray. Ohhhhh... but I sure want to! <grin>
Geoff: Whatever, but I will go read the archives.
And out of respect to Bolt...
Alex/Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 03:02:43 (ZULU)
3 shot group size ranged from .44 to 1.25 @ 100 yards - 300WM/200SMK/H1000 @73.3 - HE#$ it may be me ???
You can E-Mail off line - No attachments please :)
Any advice would be appreciated,
Thanks,
BearMan
BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 03:28:00 (ZULU)
You were curious about the .338-'06, so here's what I can tell you - it's officially a factory round, no longer strictly a wildcat. Weatherby chambers for it, and it's manufactured under the name of .338-'06 A-Square.
As you're probably aware, I guide hunters for a good friend who is a rancher and outfitter (here in Colorado) during the big game seasons. Last season an old client, who has become a friend, showed up in camp with one of those new Weatherby's. I couldn't think of a better Elk rifle, as long as the hunter isn't trying to make like a Doc King;-) It really likes the 210gr. NP for everything. A 250gr. bullet will work when pushing Elk out of the black timber, but it's a bit too slow to get a flat trajectory for the longer shots. And don't even consider any of the 300's. Not enough powder capacity, IMHO. Since last season, I've spoken with a few other guides and hunters who share this opinion. This is one that I'd like to have for myself, but I certainly don't NEED it - so many rifles, os little time and money!
BearMan,
Have you gone back to your old dies and old methods to see if the problem disappears? I've been preaching here for a long time that one should never make more than one change at a time, or you wind up chasing your tail. Try setting your OAL your old way. Any improvement? Use your old RCBS neck dies. Any improvement? Be methodical and you just might find your answer.
You asked about how often to clean a rifle. Lots of variables here! A rifle for what type of shooting? If it's a sniper the general consensus is to clean all of the way after every shooting session, provided the barrel is fully broken in and of sniper quality. We are looking for your first shot from a clean cold barrel (called a CBS) to land in the middle of your first five shot one hundred yard group, and that group be no larger than 1/2 MOA. No good-golly-miss Moly crap, and no oil or 'magic' potions left in the bore after cleanup. Especially in a callout rifle, where you certainly won't get time to swab out the bore if you've gotta go.
Many shooters don't know what a really clean bore is. Simply stated, you don't want ANY blue or green patches coming out of the bore after you get the powder fouling gone. Now is the time to reach for the Archives to get a load of all the different cleaning methods being bandied about.
HTH, ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 05:28:08 (ZULU)
Pat; I' wonder if you have tried this new stuff in the .260 or perhaps the 6.5X284? It might have some possibities as to elimination of the problems that Kevin and on occasion I have reported.
Hugger Alex; Snipers are described as Sneakers on occasion. Anyone who enters here should expect to be under at least 10 power magnification. (we don't like being snuck up on!). I don't speak for everyone but you might have noticed that I have not asked you to leave or shut up with your opinion. Even if I were presumeing to be in the position to do so, it's against my politics because even though I don't let on... I did read that consitution thing. And the archives will tell you I've written part of the book on Government discention. Some of the guys here won't even swap the time of day with me because of it. There are occasional outbursts of honesty here among those not affected by survival....and in the old poker tradition most losers cry "deal the damn cards!when things don't go their way!" seems to surface at times. Some readers and posters just genuinely don't like politics or are prohibited by their jobs or positions in life and/or seem to lack the computer skills to just sift through the political threads and find the "good stuff". It's not always homophobia.
Politics does change; unlike the best twist rate for the .308 rifle thus making it more likely to take on different phases. In general if they don't like what you're saying they cry "deal the damn cards!" If they do it's "ditto man, way to go!" When you result to insulting a man's perceived intellegence or recommend his "continued education" will bring him around to your thinking, you're crossing a line toward character attack that might get you invited out back. Be careful of your tactics and don't underestimate the ability of those time worn participants to tolerate your insults, and save it for somewhere safer like an Irish Bar on the Queen's birthday. I know you didn't mean to but........
See what you've done... Pete L. is gonna wake up in the morning with a big headache, probably wreck his Jeep again by running over some Renault and kill some poor hog with three .45 caliber slugs "just to watch him die". He'll have nightmares about Russians with hammers and nails invading his tree stand and we'll have several months of therapy to perform to get him back to normal. And never mind that George Patton wanted to go on to Moscow.
Oh yeah, cut the damn barrel off that 721 recrown it and see how it shoots. It might fit your wife better assuming your wife is female and smaller in stature than Mike Miller. You didn't say what caliber it is? Are you still beating your wife by the way?
This is a cruel place? And I'm a sadistic bastard!
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 05:29:20 (ZULU)
Bearman,what rifle are you using and how much work has it done?They differ,I have a 96 swede wich needs cleaning after around 40 shots and a sabage 223 wich Ive put 60 odd through while spotlighting and still headshoot things regularly.Start looking for problems in order of the easiest/cheapest to fix.
On politics,I listen and learn,and try to conceal my stupidity by silence but you guys make (mostly) good points,inform me about what real yanks are thinkin as opposed to what cnn says you are,and you entertain better than tv,so keep goin.Lito said,"this is the site, the only site",he's normally right
Edited:Bill I generally agree with you and often laugh loudly when I read your stuff,"are you still beating your wife?" bloody hell I hope you know this bloke.rotflmao.
out
G.W
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 05:29:46 (ZULU)
The old boy we where chatting with last night had some stories, not that he was keen to tell,and you could see just by looking at him that none of it was bull, but he figures he needs to get em off his chest whilst he still can, is sick of feeling as if he did something wrong, sick of the shame,doesn't want to take that with him to his grave and figured me an my mate where good enough to be told. The whole world should be told.
Who asked about Hensold, they are linked to Zeiss.
Looking forward to the IWA at the weekend, JR you will fall in love with weizen beer, you will have cravings for it, just ask Chris..he still does.
right enough.. i've got to look after our little 'un she's got the shits,and can't go to kindergarten, best find my gas mask..
Pete
Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 07:09:55 (ZULU)
I heard a rumor that the bird that collected the 27 mil. on shieki is moving to England and buyin a castle. New name and all. Glad it's youse guys and not here, for his sake, of course.
Kevin,
Even Rangers have to keep their powder dry.:)) I was tryin to correlate what someone said about preheating your ammo to test it. If you ever see me with a cooler on the firing line, you should put down your weapon and join me cause I'm done shootin. Tell Andy it's not nice to pick on the elderly or infirm.
Mark S.
Persactly!! Is Lake Cormorant(sp) a good bass lake? I'm boycotting FL.(it's a long story) for spring prespawn bass. I'm thinkin about somethin new. As it's closer than Lake Fork, and smaller, it might be a nice week. Any ranges over 600 yd.? if the fish ain't bitin? Hit me offline.
Undude,
Are they gonna do it arthroscopically or slice one or both side? If they slice ya it'll be a 60 or 90 day or two. If they do it artho you might be up and around in a week. Good luck either way.
John
Somedays I thinks we need spelchek!
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 11:58:24 (ZULU)
I have one more question, then I'll go back into the shadows:
Anyone know if the Stony Point target knobs will work with a Loopy Vari-X II ? I called SWFA as well as Brownells and couldn't get anything more definitive than "probably" or "they should". The website says they work with any Leupold, but since the Vari-X III has 1/4 minute clicks, and a Vari-X II has 1/2 minute with no clicks, it seems unlikely it would work on both. Thanks in advance.
JB
John Bechtell <ajbechtell@yahoo.com>
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 13:42:15 (ZULU)
Pete; Glad your spirits are better today and your head don't hurt .
I'm sure your satisfaction of your free expression is exceeded only by our forgiveness.
Forgive my amusement, but were it not for my newly discovered diabetes and the few thousand miles, I would probably have happily joined you last night.
All this stuff is really quite entertaining when you get right down to it. This site gets a little boring at times. After all.....just so many times you can adjust your trigger, torque your stock, argue the best caliber for whatever Leupold you put on the barrel in a turbulent world before the subjects we deal with every day will find their way into the conversation.
Treehugger; we'd probably just buy you a beer and help you cut that barrel off to a decent length if we were in proximity. Those barrels were too damn long anyway.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 13:43:34 (ZULU)
The Stoney Point knobs work just fine on Vari-X II's. Just follow the instructions that come with them.
Doc
Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 14:01:56 (ZULU)
Please go back and read all of my posts on the subject. If you do you will see that the post of March 11 @ 00:28:27 opened with the sentences "Stop with the labels. Their use greatly diminishes any message you hope to impart." The key words are "labels" and "diminishes" . Alen, your post of March 10 @ 20:47:37 was a perfectly appropriate, and by the way, very informative expression of your point of veiw up to the point that you threw in the labels- LIBERALS,LEFTISTS, SOCIALISTS, CRYBABIES, AND OTHER SELF-HATING RESIDENTS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY. Your comments are "diminished" at that point because the "labels" at their most base level are divisive and cannote the sentiment that if the labeled group of people would shut up, go away, or otherwise cease to be, you and yours could exist in a perfect world. More broadly the labels carry with them the unmistakable implication that the labeled group is some how less worthy of calling themselves Americans, are less able to show patriotism, are less able to love their country, are less able or willing to serve this country with both honor and distinction. In the end it becomes a Blame game.
As I stated in an earlier post, the world is way too complex and diverse to be sorted out on the basis of a mere handfull of catchy labels. Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal ,Black , White, Hispanic- pick your favorite label for the list- they all make a contribution to making this country great. Diversity was and remains a principal tenet of why America exists at all. No single group has the market cornered on doing what's right or best for the country. Over time the diversity creates balance.
That's it. I'm done . You guys have fun.
Rod
Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 14:24:46 (ZULU)
When shooting my .308 out past 700 yards, I noticed that when trace can be seen, it appears the bullet is falling from the sky, not traveling away from the shooter as one might expect...this because the falling part is easier to view from the shooting position. The farther out that 175 gr sierra flys, the steeper it's approach to my target, making it increasingly less likely that my poor range estimations will fall within the acceptable margin of error to develop the desired "ringing of steel".
If I were king, and declared that the king's standard for long range rifle fire was the ability to hit a 20" x 20" steel target at 800 yards with a .308 rifle firing a 175 gr sierra HPBT at 2700 fps MV, in zero wind... we would probably be able to describe any other competing rifle /projectile / MV mix in relation to the king's standard.
If I wanted to know exactly how far out a shooter with the "standard skill level" could hit "the standard target" with the "standard level of precision" with the new 6.5 x 284 or .338 Laupa... a skilled physics guru could probably develop a formula which ignored wind and gave a distance at which similar approach angles would be seen in say a standard .338 laupa round... This comparative standard might be very useful in evaluating competitive rounds. You could probably do the same in comparing wind estimation at any given wind speed and direction...
I realize there are several ways to break down this approach, as I'm sure a certain subset of the population predisposed to suck the blood from everything will no doubt do... what I'm thinking here is that such a standard, developed by civilian shooters, might some day be employed to do a fair and impartial comparison of long range shooting solutions, to ultimately give those that would put themselves in harms way the best tool for the job...based on fact.
Heck, in the short term, we could handicap the Allegheny shoot and give the .308 shooters a fair chance....
Where is CDC when you need him...
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 14:55:35 (ZULU)
I have heard good things about BenchMark. What is the burn rate compared to Varget?? I was thinking it was on the faster side?? Have you played with it much?? If so let me know some of your results. Thanks!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 14:58:10 (ZULU)
Guys, on another site, The Sniper's Hide, I've had the opportunity to publish some of my thoughts on the subject. I'd like to invite all of you to stop by, read my stuff if you will and give me your feed back. Be gentle. http://www.snipershide.com/guide/guide_index.html
Ref: Handicapping .308
Jim, I think it's doable....let me give it some thought and I'll get back to you.....
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 15:34:02 (ZULU)
Please, everyone, use your brain and do not duplicate my load in your gun without working up to it carefully.
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 15:35:08 (ZULU)
A generous king you are to permit a 2.5 MOA accuracy standard!
You still remember how to tie that special knot you learned at ASC #1?
PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
Upstate, SC, US of A - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 15:59:20 (ZULU)
2.5 MOA left to right, but how much deviation up or down causes a miss... it decreases as you move out yonder...
You see, I am a talented king, I give people the impression of being generous....while actually giving much less.
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 16:15:53 (ZULU)
You were spared the cruelest manifestation of this rope trick by being prompted to hold it in your hand.
PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 16:25:29 (ZULU)
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 16:43:54 (ZULU)
Alan posted his positive notes on the .338-06. I agree. I see a number of them here in the Pacific Northwest. Owner's are very positive about their attributes.
A number of years back I had custom rifle built, but went to a different caliber...the .35 Whelan Improved. I get 2,600 FPS out of it's 23" Krieger barrel with a Nosler 250 grain partiction. Muzzle thump is on the heels of the .375 Mag. Recoil is heavy, but manageable. English walnut stock, rust blue, and Luppie 1.75 X 5 top it off. Superb for deer, bear, or elk! OH, and probably hawgs, too, Pete.
I selected the .35 Whelan over the .338-06 for nostolgia reasons and it's ability to handle the heavies a bit better. Can go all the way to 300 grain bullets, but damn, who needs to or wants to...?
Off to work...flu going around and I'bve been down for several days(damn, my days off). Back to it.
Chris, will try to post some pictures of the Mexican Mauser/Mannlicher when it is stocked. Steve is doing the wood now. You're gonna want one.
Pete, on hangovers...I don't do that no more...got tired of waking up with strange women, feeling cheap and used...;-)
Waiting patiently for my Gardner .338 Lapua...
My best to all.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 17:10:51 (ZULU)
WOW!!! You need to write a book containing this stuff. IMHO it's very well written and easy to read. Even an old varmint like me can understand it.
Doc
Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 17:14:58 (ZULU)
I'm not posting to have the last word, believe me. Your last post probably called attention to the basic differences in our belief systems better than I could.
You see, I LIKE labels. As in seperating the wheat from the chaff. There is right and wrong, black and white, truth and lies, good and bad, patriot or traitor, honest or dishonest, etc., etc., etc. With me or against me? America - love it or leave it! All of these lables help dim bulbs like me to understand exactly how someone stands on a given issue. I don't do a good job distinguishing different shades of gray. There is no room in my life for any other way.
I believe in our First Ammendment rights, including my right to call bullshit by its real name, and you're right to tell me that you think that I'm wrong (or nuts). But just because I excersize my right to express my opinion doesn't allow you to attempt to censor me. This time, I ask you to go back to YOUR post, where you ask me to take my opinions to another site!
As for diversity, I'll try not to let you get me really started. The short form is that the 'D' word is the worst thing that has happened to our country in recent years. People that hyphenate their names in order to call attention to their ethnicity are culturally divisive and perhaps should return to the land of their origin so that they could drop the friggen hyphen. What ever happened to the great melting pot? Great nations have fallen because of taking in foreign cultures who have refused to assimilate. And talk about labels, exactly what do you think these people are using to further divide this country? We will probably never be conquered from the outside, but may very well be destroyed by 'diverse' forces from within!
It's obvious that you and I do not even inhabit the same country, so this is the last of it that you'll hear from me on the subject.
Kumbaya,
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 17:26:37 (ZULU)
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 17:55:37 (ZULU)
"Plain speak is easily understood"
Political correctness has hamstrung our nation into a dismal abyss of misunderstanding and timidity of communication.
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 18:04:35 (ZULU)
I don't think that handicapping is the answer for shooting. We are not trying to see who gets to the finish line first we are trying to see who is the better shot. If it is thought that one caliber has an advantage over another caliber then maybe there needs to be different classes to compete in. Something like standard or traditional calibers (.308, ?) and magnum or high velocity (.300 WM, 6.5x284, etc.). Maybe the competition needs to be modified so that scoring shots would only be taken in the normal operating range for the weapon used and anything further would be used for tie breakers only.
Just a thought,
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 19:01:16 (ZULU)
Please let's not turn this into the NHRA. We don't need the gamesmanship that big money and factory teams bring, but we also do not want an Anschutz Olympic .22RF that puts all of 'em in .11" at 50yds. to take the whole ball of wax!
If a .300 Magnum, a Lapooie, or something of the sort is gonna take the 1K or 1200yd. event, then it's just supposed to be that way.
Just my opinion,
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 19:43:46 (ZULU)
My poor communication..sorry.
In the real world, the guy shot first dies, the guy who shot him wins. When Kevin Mussack shows up with his super duper magnum and dials in a couple of clicks for elevation and a click for that 20 MPH wind and dings that steel at 1000 yards, he may have a slight advantage over the .308 which requires a few more clicks. I was actually looking for a METRIC to compare these various calibers to determine where each sits in the scheme of things. In the long run, I think that might be a GOOD THING, especially for our military.
Now the humor -
All this so we can talk over the fire on how much extra skill it took me to win after all the shooting is done....I just don't want the boys being bored.
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 19:46:11 (ZULU)
Wife is perfectly capable of handling her own. She's still tremendously pleased that the first dent she put in the new car was from the muzzle blast of the 300WM she benched on the car's roof. She later went out with the Hoppes to make sure the crud didn't screw up the car's paint. Beat my wife? Only in competition, and then only if I'm having a good day.
And yeah, I do take someone's comment and say "what did you mean by that...?" Guilty as charged. I think too much. Our emails said the rest.
Ref Handicapping: Call the range and let people bring what they want. If they don't pick the best round, they'll find out for themselves. Education by experience.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:27:25 (ZULU)
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:31:03 (ZULU)
"Plain speak is easily understood" unless you've down 2 bottles of spanish red and a bottle of port wine.. my fingers wouldn't type what my brain was desperately trying to tell em too.. no hangover.. cool..
Wes,i like that 35 whelan, we very seldom see it here, its ballistic twin the 9.3x62 is more popular.
Guys what the hell is going on at Brownells, i ordered a load of stuff over six months ago, it never came despite bieng paid for, after several phone calls i finaly got em to re send the order, i got it today and half the shit is missing, missing items include, 1 starlight case, 2 pots marine tex, a damn spare firing pin and some other stuff,, ive never been messed around by them before...
Right folks, time to get off to the airport and pick up Jon B, i hope he left his sheep at home...
Pete
Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:34:20 (ZULU)
The only advantage that one has over the other is in the wind. You can both dial in the elevation if your using lazer range finders. If your not and you have to mil the targets then the flatter shooting ones will have an edge. Because you will have less margin of error with a flatter shooting rifle, same as with the wind.
It all boils down to the man behind the gun. (As we have said so many times before). I have a 6.5x284 and shot it in competition against 308s and have had my ass handed to me by a better shooter with a 308. Would I choose a 6.5 over a 308 damn right!! It makes me feel better thinking I have an advantage!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:43:40 (ZULU)
How much better is a 6.5 x 284 over a 308. How about a .260, or a .338 laupa....can you see what I'm getting at? Anecdotal doesn't cut it when you are trying to justify a big capital expenditure to a police department or military agency....I want to start something here that will help these guys out.
Oh, and if I wiggle just a bit up and down because I've been sitting in a wet ditch for an hour... I know you aren't suggesting that the .308 is as tolerant as the flatter shooting 6.5 when I just HAVE to hit the target at 800 yards... that little wiggle will be amplified much more by the .308...and that IS a factor impacting success...
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:53:18 (ZULU)
Huggie; My limited experience given normal powder loads indicates you would loose about 35 to 50 fps in the 30-06. I've read that 100 fps is about right but the bore size makes a big difference as to how much you loose. Were that a 22-250 it would be around 100 or more.
You did a good job with the wife beating question. I don't think even Bill Clinton could answer that one right and he's pretty clever about trick questions.
Kevin; I have to compliment you on your article and work up there but I'd get a hair cut if I were you. I hate to dicipline you soldier but this seems to be the week for it. I'm beginning to catch on... even for a hillbilly like me it not so hard. I can see your serious about what you do. That's admirable.
Ron, somebody e-mailed me that your a pretty alright dude. I respect his opinion totally and we'll go from there. Don't assume the same about me though. I really am a sadistic bastard. I deliver sucker punches below the belt.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:57:13 (ZULU)
How many French does it take to defend Paris?
Nobody knows, it's never been attempted.
Pete L
Press S&B on the alleged 3-12 x42 PM type scope when you're at the show. I couldn't afford one right now anyway, but I can dream.....
Kevin
was it you who had the Gen II reticle fitted to your variable LR scope? Any comments on optical quality afterwards. I'm about to ship mine to be done and I want some reassurance. I'm sure it'll be fine or Premier wouldn't put their name to it, but it doesn't hurt to ask. I'm just waiting for customs to send me the right forms so I don't get clobbered for import duty and VAT when it comes back again.
Play nice boys.
Mark D
mark dougan <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 21:30:09 (ZULU)
It is supposed to burn just a little faster I think like you say. I'm gonna try a keg of it. It takes as little less for the same speed. I think It probably is a version of VARGET sliced up a little but the claim is that it is less temp sensitive. So far it's hard to tell the difference at 500, 100 etc.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 21:59:37 (ZULU)
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 22:07:11 (ZULU)
Nope. A wiggle is a wiggle. As I see it, if you move your hold by 1 MOA, your POI is gonna move by 1 MOA. Where the faster(faster=flatter) rounds make a difference is in range estimation error, and wind speed estimation error. The slower round is dropping faster (more drop per yard) at the target, so the round is at the kill zone height for a shorter distance. The wind's effect on the faster bullet is less. So's the effect of a wind estimation error. At least, to a first approximation for relatively flat shots.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 22:15:47 (ZULU)
Families and units are being advised not to give out the address to their military members overseas dues to concerns of terrorists or whackos using the US Mail to spread anthrax or bombs or some such crap.
Some units are advising troops to shitcan packages or letter from people they don't personally know, once they are in theater.
If you want to get something to the troops, find a deployed unit, find their family support group and ask them what you can do to help and what their troops need. Buy the stuff they ask, give it to them with some $$ for postage and let them send it.
Thats what I got in my briefing a few weeks ago and I've heard it several time since.
~ ~ ~
To who ever said they didnt like it when people dont post at least their first or last name on the roster;
Hello.... This is an open source on the internet. Anyone can read it, note your email and name and google or search engine the rest if they are determined enough.
If you have a need to know who I am or vice-versa then we can exchange emails and establish credibility with each other and go from there.
Think about all the virus attacks we've been getting. I use this email address primarily for this site and really very little else. I still get about 15-20 virus attacks a week with emails or addresses that appear to be from legitimate Roster Hogs. I get about 1 or 2 a week on my other email account.
Keep this in mind... Once your info is on the net... It NEVER, ever goes away. Its archived, cached and cross-referenced.
In that regard, it would be beneficial to have some kind of blind link that a person who is not a "registered" user could click on to send a short note to a registered hog, or something like that to limit these virus attacks. Everyone who visits does not need our emails, just those with credible business.
Thats my two bits.
Murphy - Did you get my email?
~DA
DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 22:20:46 (ZULU)
BMB Mike said just what I said. I agree with the wiggle is a wiggle no matter the caliber. I was "Trying" to say that when shooting a "Known" range I think the 308 in a no wind condition will shoot with the 6.5x284 or the magnums. If you know the range, know your gun, dial it and dump it.
Howerver if your miling the range and you "Don't" know the exact range then the flatter shooting rifles "Will" be an advantage. The thing that lito' worked out on the miling error really showed this to be true esp at longer ranges.
This is also true when your fighting a wind. I used to joke that once I went to the 6.5s my wind calls really improved. Its because I can be a little sloppy on my call and still hit the target because the higher BC is less affected by the wind.
My true belief is that what seperates the winners from the loosers is not the range but the wind. With the range finders we have to day wind is the big killer and always will be.
Once again it boils down to the old boy pulling the trigger. My daddy used to say, "Beware of the man with one gun". I agree though that the use of the other calibers for departments is not justified. I do think the military would see a gain with the 6.5s or the heavy 6MMs with the 1-8 twists.
I am really looking at the 6mmx250 on a 22-250 case with a 1-8 twist. This round pushes a 105gr bullet to 3000fps and falls between the 260 and the 6.5x284 for wind and drop. It is good for a good 4000rds in highpower shooting so should make a great tactical rifle and has nil recoil. I can not see a down side to this round so far.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 22:37:20 (ZULU)
If you want to do some good with folks in the field, contact the American red cross. You can pretty much send stuff via them to the station chief at whatever deployed location and IT WILL GET THERE!
Whatever you do send though, be prepared to receive thankyou notes from the troops. I've been deployed so many times it's not funny! The Red Cross always had stuff we needed just in he nick of time. If you go about it right you can garner some much needed charity PR for your local law enforcement/fire/medical responders and get an entire community involved (to include school kids).
Thanks
FESTUS
Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage , AK, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 23:00:23 (ZULU)
In a long range rifle match where the distances are unknown, the wind is a factor and all other things are equal a 6.5x.284 will prevail over a .308 Win (slightly).
Example:
20”x 20” target
750 yards
10 mph full value wind
1.25 moa elevation error will result in a miss.
The 6.5 user needs to determine the range to +/-40 yds (+/-5%)
The .308 user needs to determine the range to +/-25 yds (+/-3%)
1.25 moa windage error will result in a miss.
The 6.5 user needs to determine the wind +/-3 mph (+/-30%)
The .308 user needs to determine the wind +/-2mph (+/-20%)
By the looks of it the 6.5x.284 has the advantage but not a big one.
The real advantage will come from my Kestrel 4000 weather meter, my 20X Gen II reticle and my PDA. I’m hoping the whole will be greater than the sum of the parts. I think its called synergy.
The numbers get a little more impressive past the 750 yard mark.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 00:39:47 (ZULU)
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:02:51 (ZULU)
I finally saw one of those elusive 6-22/250's. A guy is using one in a match rifle. It hits the paper at 1K like a hot 6.5x284. VERY loud. He shot a 187 with it his first time out. Don't know of the actual capability, but it's a small round. Looks like a dwarf next to the 284 case.
I'll be watching him and his performance over the season and keep you up on it.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K mathc at AEDC, March 16th. , WCRC's HSTM 3 gun tactical match has been rescheduled for May 10,11. If you're not locked down due to Mothersday,, come on out and shoot., Get with me for details and drive directions. - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:09:04 (ZULU)
I'd like to hear your thoughts on those options. Does anyone have experience with any of these models? If you were me, where would you spend your money.
Thanks.
corbett mortensen <rexhavoc3@cox.net>
omaha, ne, usa - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:22:31 (ZULU)
I have a Savage 10FP .308 and I really like it. And yes, barrels are easier to change.
One of my buddies has a Savage left hand and it is made just as well my right handed rifle.
The good thing about Savages is that the money saved on the rifle can go towards a good scope. You just can't skimp on the optics.
LATER
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:44:55 (ZULU)
Haven't done anything with the 280 AI yet, busy selling organs to afford the SC rifle. Just parted with some stuff and so I should have that rifle on the way soon. Busy as Hell getting the platoon ready. SOP's, last minute gear issues, personel issues, the usual. Still stuck in CONUS, but things are coming down the pipe hot and heavy. Wish CMC would get this unit to AD so I can whip on some intensive training. As it stands we might skip work up. Don't know whether they are confident in the unit, or just stupid. IMO any work up time is good. S/F...Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:53:24 (ZULU)
I gots a question about interstate shipping of rifles. I recently sold my PSS via an online transaction. I thought that as long as it was SENT to an FFL it was kosher. The buyer (in MN) tells me (in MD)his FFL told him that it had to be FROM an FFL TO an FFL. I thought that was for handguns NOT rifles. Now I've bought three of four rifles online now and I always just sent 'em a signed copy of my local dealers' FFL and a couple days later, there it was. I called the gents at GA Precision and they said "as long as it's too an FFL you're fine". I checked the ATF's website FAQ's and it just said that they must be shipped to an FFL. Obviously I don't want to break any rules, so who's right?
Confused,
Rich S
RichS. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:55:31 (ZULU)
Like V&T codes (vehicle & traffic), gun laws vary from state to state, but as far as I have seen (and done) from person to FFL is cool, so long as the FFL is doing the transfer paperwork properly. With the boom always hanging over their head from the BATF, you can't blame dealers to have the extra added security. And from all the dealers I have X-frd thru, going from FFL to FFL is the best and "proper" way to do it, but it's a pain to do it that way, and the other way is just fine.
Kevin (Andy's dad)
Great ariticle, but who's that ornery lookin' cuss in the picture? Where didya get that little sock thingie for the butt stock? Mine is an old OD sock filled with sand with a knot tied in it. Good stuff.
Kush out
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
P-cola, Fl, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 04:11:45 (ZULU)
Done it myself and did the same "checks".
TOO an FFL is fine.
You are also correct on the pistola swap.
Was gonna shoot my new VS this weekend but "they" say it's gonna pour cats and doggies. (OOOPS! I meant DOGS!)
heehee
Speakin' o' kitties, where in the hell is the Great Kittywhacker!?
Semper-Fi to ALL!
Spud
Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 04:18:16 (ZULU)
Shipping to FFL, is the correct way......
Rifle's may be shipped to FFL Holders, DIRECTLY from an individual.
Dos Zap
Glockamolie <Glockamolie@aol.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 04:20:48 (ZULU)
Dennis; I think he's taking a little time off from the goings on here. Maybe wondering just why he even messes with it. It's crossed all our minds I'd venture to guess. He's hard to get used to not being around. There are many missing pieces to the puzzle that is Sniper Country of late. Some just get burned out with the endless circle of answering the same questions over and over. It's like a "help desk" around here for people in the know like the Lito. Some just can't endure the ongoing conflicts and personality clashes that constantly tug at you here. Sometimes the burden of life and SC get too much when combined....and others use it for therapy. Meee I just like pickin on people.
"Nurse bring my medicine now please!"
Corbett; I have used and adjusted all three Savage triggers along with many Remingtons and Winchesters. The new one is much safer and easily adjusted. The other 2 are not. It's the one with the Glock type device on the front. Savage Rifles shoot. They can be Bedded or not when they have the pillars in the stock as the later ones do. The stock's could use some improvement but they really don't hamper the shooting at all. It's a serious rifle any way you look at it.
The prices are about $400 bucks wholesale for a hvy bbl .308 with the new trigger and that's outstanding for what you get. The new trigger is a beginner's dream to shoot and adjust.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 05:01:26 (ZULU)
Hope that things get better for you soon. I've been ordering from Brownells for years with no trouble. Just received two orders in Feb. as a matter of fact. I suspect that something bad is going on when your package leaves CONUS. Write or e-mail Brownells and speak to a manager. There may be alternate shipping methods.
Pat,
I think that we've had this same conversation a couple of years ago;-) Please 'splain to me just how somebodys getting 3000fps with a 105gr bullet out of a 6mmX250 without going way overpressure. It's real hard to do with a .243W! Are these guys using single shots so they don't have to go lookin' in the magazine for their primers?
I have to agree with Ken M. on this one. I wonder if they are REALLY cronographing 3000 with this load, and what's the case life? Maybe I'm just an old sceptic, but this performance seems too good to be true. It just sounds like a whole lot of sumthin' for nothin'. Remember what Jerry Rice posted about this combination?
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 05:57:12 (ZULU)
.308 vs 6.5 X .284. Nice comments Kevin and all. I'm a big proponent and fan of BOTH. Frankly, for most of my shooting I reach for my .308. They do the job nicely. No fuss, no muss, no bother.
Having said that, I shoot slightly tighter groups with the 6.5 X .284 at 600. Also, the 6.5 requires half the windage my .308 with 175's use. This is not a down side, but merely points out what we drill to our members. Know your equipment, it's capabilities, and practice, practice, practice.
For beyond 750 I'll take the 6.5 X .284...
You're getting into another realm with the .300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua's.
6MM/250. Not enough boiler room to make it competitive with the 6.5 X .284. I'll take the 142 grain Sierra over the 107 A-Max any day. Silly me, but I like to put SOME bullet weight on target. Unless we are just talking punching paper...;-)
All for now. Home from work and need to get some sleep. Pete, you might try that, too...
Am familiar with the 9.3 X 62. GREAT round!
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 07:13:08 (ZULU)
The company I work for, Surgical Shooting, Inc is looking for a Force Protection/Anti-Terrorism instructor to work here in Japan.
If interested visit the company web site at
www.surgicalshooting.com
or email me at goochkw@riflemen.net
Out here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 07:37:45 (ZULU)
As for my slicker'n'Willy reply, thanks... I think...
DA: Agreed on anonymity measures. I'm sick of Nigerians telling me that, for a modest fee, I can claim my long-lost inheritance. Oh, and incoming email, no attachments.
Anyone feel like telling me how to get accuracy + speed out of a sabot .308, or should I go dig through the archives?
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 08:58:23 (ZULU)
Very good round for longrange shooting. A little more oomph than the 6mm Norma BR.
The best thing with the 6-250 is this: "imp" the case a litle bit, new barrels and mags for the H&K G3 and M14 and you have a "perfect" autorifle. It can also easily be made to work in a MG42/MG3, new barrel, feedingtray and tuned "accelerator"/action. Have made a MG34 and a MG42 shoot 6.5x55 in this way several years ago. I'm sure the same can be done to a FN MAG.
Wes: A gunsmith I know converted a Browning 1919 to shoot 9,3x62. It worked great. Serious stoppingpower in a "compact" package. Why they didn't do this in WW2 for aircraftguns is beond anyone who could see it in action. 280gr .366 bullet at 2500fps. Think "multipurpose" bullets for this one... Mv is the same as the british 303-guns.
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 10:05:28 (ZULU)
Wow! I never new. Truly a gifted writer. Carry on, sir,
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 11:39:46 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 11:47:00 (ZULU)
I think that this is where the confusion comes in. As a private person you can legally ship a gun to the manufacture or shop (FFL) for repair and supposedly they are able to ship it directly back to you. If you're travelling somewhere and want to ship the firearm ahead of time you can ship a firearm to yourself anywhere. The person on the receiving end is not supposed to open the package because it is addressed to you, no FFL required at all!
Transfer (sale) of firearms is another matter. There are signatures required on paperwork that cannot be obtained unless it goes from FFL to FFL. In California you used to be able to do a private persons sale without going through a FFL hold, as long as you knew the other person but not any longer. Seems California found another way to screw with us and get free money (transfer fee) in the process.
Now, even if you have that straight in your heads you have to get past the shippers and their interpretation of the rules plus any of their own that they wish to throw in.
As the others have said, I have not had any problems going from FFL to FFL.
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 14:31:21 (ZULU)
Huggie; I'd doubt you would lose that much but anyhow, why not cut it and try. You don't have anything to loose. Just chop it off round it off and maybe counter sink just a couple silly millimeters and run a cone shaped dremmel tool as straight as you can up the bore just to smooth it all out. Dip it Super Blue and What can it hurt. Way too much importance is placed on long barrels. Until your bullet is approaching the speed of sound from the top side it doesn't matter very much. With today's powders you can find something that will give almost equal performance without setting fire to the weeds in front of the gun. Bench Mark might be a good one or 4320.
Oh yeah, there's not much infor in the archives about Sabot bullets. They run about the speed of a .223 as a rule and accuracy is pretty fair. You just have to try em. But they come up short at long ranges at times. I saw a CSI show where a Sniper was making 900 yard shots with a Sabot. So I'm sure it's easy to do. Everything on TV is true ain't it.
Another thing, most of those African deals are a scam but about 1 in 5 is legitimate. I've got billions in Swiss Bank accounts I haven't even seen! Well anyway that's what I told em to do was just put it in a Swiss account in my name and send me the numbers. I guess I have the numbers somewhere around here, I don't open the mail very often but they sounded real legitimate. It's amazing all those African are starving with all that money just lying around.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 14:43:09 (ZULU)
Precision shooting had a very good article on the 6x250. A guy had built one on an AR and a bolt gun. He was getting 2950 with the AR and 3000+ with a bolt gun.
I don't have the data to look at but a guy off of another sight sent me a couple of pages of loading data for his rifle an he was over 3000 with several powders.
I sent all the data to my son but when I was researching it for him I found that most like to shoot them in the 2900 to 2950 range. Good case life and barrel life even in hipower.
If you run the numbers with the BC and the velocity I believe its better than my 260 with the 140s at 2750 but not as good as the 6.5x284s. Like I said yesterday it fell right between the two of them.
I love my 260 and I would think the 6x250 would be a real winner for tactical shooting with the 105s. If you get a chance run the numbers and let me know what you think.
Dakota Av...
Got your e.mail thanks!!! Really appreciate that!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 14:46:16 (ZULU)
Just a heads up for rosterfarians in Fla or South Ga:
There is a big firearms collection auction in Weeki Watchee this Sunday. They have quite a few Mauser K98's, Enfields, tactical shotguns, etc, etc. I have a brochure for the thing, so if you're interested, hit me offline and I'll e-mail it to you.
Thanks,
Jim
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Florida, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 14:50:33 (ZULU)
This guy was shoting 6mm 107's in the 22-250 case and they were freekin' loud coming over. Louder than all the 6BR's and several of the fagmags.
Now, will it beat it in the wind,,, nope. But it's a damn sight easier to sling shoot/target shoot at 1K than the 308's. I'm torn between this case and a 6BR for my misses....
Me,, I'll stick with the fagmags for now.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 16:18:22 (ZULU)
Here's my simple experiment... put a .308 next to a 6.5 x 284 and shoot at an 800 yard target until both are zeroed on that range... now dial on two clicks of elevation on your M3LR for each rifle... this simulates the same flich across the two rifles... if you guys are correct, the change in impact elevation on the target should be exactly the same... is it?
Another scenario... the .308 has a down range trajectory which is a steeper arc than the 6.5 x 284 at 800 yards. To exaggerate the example, let's compare high arc softball to fast pitch baseball ...which is easier to hit the strike zone?
Perhaps I'm totally wrong, would someone please explain it to me in simple terms....
If a deviation in the precision of aiming does not exist across calibers, why does Kevin's .308 shooter require a greater degree of precision when estimating range vs the 6.5 x 284 shooter?
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 16:42:36 (ZULU)
I gots to have me one of these 6mm 250's. But that's what I said to Pat about 2 years ago about 260's. I never get nothin done! I think
Rice was shooting one of these at long (i mean long) range Prairie dogs. I never saw it but learned what he said was good to go. Tubbs won the NRA's with it last year agin! Why hell that's better than a .308 case I dunno for sure but...
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 16:44:24 (ZULU)
When you first ask about giggle, we were talking shooting a "Known" range dialed in for POI on the target. In theory a .5 MOA 308 would shoot .5 and a .5 MOA 6.5x284 would do the same.
The end result is the same because the POI is going to be "ON" the 800yd mark weather its a 308 or a 6.5x284. If your guessing the range then the margin of error comes into play with a flatter shooting rifle.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 17:35:22 (ZULU)
I tried the .224 sabots awhile back. Several primers, powders, etc. and I wasn't impressed with my loading of them. Here's a hint though, don't try to get 'em to touch the lands, pack 'em into the case as far as possible and check the runout on all. Best I ever did was 5" pattern at a 100 yds. YMMV. Someone else here asked about them also awhile back and danged if I can remember who. Maybe he had better luck than I did and will share the secret. They will scream at those velocities so make sure you bullet selection will hold together. Some won't spin that fast and will come apart upon leaving the muzzle.
Mr. Yote,
I've got an airport full o' pups this year!!! I shoulda known it would happen when I called six of 'em up the hill that day last fall. They don't seem to be as shy this year. In the past, if you whack one they'd scatter for a month or so and then return, now they seem to just shift ends of the runways on me. I need a tunnel rat.:))
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 17:50:24 (ZULU)
This flat shooting rifle thing. I have a couple of young friends here who are really tough. They both have .300 RUM's.. We are about to find out just what advantage those big flat shooting cannons are going to have. We are trying to bring in the loads and trying scopes to see what falls off and what stays in there. I'm kind of shooting the control groups with .308 winchester and conventional sniper rifle. They are bareing down on me hard. More news at 6.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 18:06:40 (ZULU)
“If a deviation in the precision of aiming does not exist across calibers, why does Kevin's .308 shooter require a greater degree of precision when estimating range vs the 6.5 x 284 shooter? “
With my 6.5x.284 I need to dial in 14.25 moa to hit at 750 yards.
The target is 20”x 20” so a miss won’t happen until I hit more than 10 inches high or low of my aiming point (center).
7.5x1.047=7.85 inches/moa @ 750 yards
10” / 7.85” = 1.27 moa or 1.25 moa.
Any range estimation error that will cause me to adjust my scope greater than 1.25 moa from perfect (14.25 moa) will result in a miss (with any caliber).
In other words I can hit the target if I dial in 15.5 moa to 13.0 moa. That’s a hit for a range guess of 790 yards to 710 yards. (+/-40 yard margin or +/-5.3% error)
With my .308 I need to dial in 22.0 moa to hit at 750 yards.
I will hit if I dial in 23.25 moa to 20.75 moa.
Range guess must be 775 yards to 725 yards (+/-25 yard margin or +/-3.3% error)
The 6.5x.284 shoots flatter so you have a wider margin for range estimation error.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 18:16:41 (ZULU)
Medical Battalions reorganized into DISCOM (Division support command) and will now be Charlie Company (Charlie-Med) in the FSBs (Forward Support Battalions, Manuever Brigade support area) or the MSB (Main, Div-rear). All the various support elements were chopped up into direct support--to get them habitually associated with their suported troopers. Good idea, actually.
Joe M.
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 18:33:43 (ZULU)
I don't think your fastball analogy holds, either. One click off is the same distance on the target in any caliber. We have black powder shooters on our range that hit steel targets at 1000 yards even though the rounds are coming in damn near vertical on the target end. Slower rounds just make the range and wind factors more critical.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 19:05:58 (ZULU)
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 19:14:38 (ZULU)
1 MOA is 1 MOA at 100 yards. IT's optical and has nothing to do with bullets. The drop charts take care of the variations in bullet speed and weight. The observations by Kevin explain it nicely as far as what flat shooting helps with.
It works for me to memorize my elevations as MOA (moa@100 yds.) In other words I don't think in terms of clicks or drop at 500 yards I think in terms of 500 elev. = 12MOA (inches) at 100 for my 168gr 308's. When I go to 500 I just spin it up to 12 and shoot. If you want to break it down then it's easy to say 12X5=60"drop or 48 1/4" clicks. It is better to keep me organized.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 19:20:31 (ZULU)
The below excerpt is from the Federal Firearms Regulations Guide, the 2000 edition and as far as I know the latest addition.
A nonlicencee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in ANY state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C 922(a)(2)(A) and 922(e),27 CFR 178.31]
Hope that may clear a few things up.
drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 19:54:19 (ZULU)
Wes, i'm looking forward to hunting season and no sleep, when i have time to sleep i tend to think instead and that sometimes just ain't good.
Well i got ole Jon B picked up from the airport last night,( no sheep) had him introduced to the morning 10 oclock bottle of beer tradition this morning and we set about his rifle, also did a couple of other shop jobs so have realy been at it all day, if any one else ever does any work for him, do yer self a favour and send him to the pub untill youve finnished, Jon " take justa little more out the barrel channel" Beardsley, got the award for customer of the year today... welsh git.. good to have him here though and realy looking forward to hitting the road in the morning direction Bavaria and Nurnberg, IWA here we come... and i am sure as hell gonna get him drunk...
Take care guys, Jon will tell you all about our drunken antics and Calcutta workshop practices next week i'm sure..
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 20:08:48 (ZULU)
Perhaps I should shut up but this doesn't make sense intuitively. I'm missing something
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 20:24:48 (ZULU)
I think what your missing is the fact that were talking "NO" wind and "Exact" range known.
With these two factors then the ability of the rifle to hit the target is dependent on the shooter and the rifles accuacy, not the caliber.
By knowing the range and no wind you simply dial in the correct MOAs and lay them in there. My 308 will group quite well at 800 yards with no wind.
Once again the advantage is in the 6.5s ability to buck wind and shoot flatter when the range is unknown and you have wind. So now the shooter can be a little more off on his range and wind call and still in theory hit the target.
If you give a good shooter a 308 who can mil and call wind he is at no disadvantage to someone with a 6.5x284. The flatter shooting calibers can make a poor shooter a better shot but won't necessarly make a good shot any better. In other words a HIT IS A HIT!! Hope this helps.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 20:49:50 (ZULU)
One and all, thanks for the info on sabots. Sounds like a trick of dubious value, so I'll save the experiment for when I run out of other headaches. Still have enough to learn on less exotic stuff. Get the basics first.
Treehugger
Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 20:52:52 (ZULU)
Thank you,
Chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, ID, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 21:06:30 (ZULU)
thanks so much for the info Hawgs. That's what I figured it was. Funny thing is, I called the ATF and the lady there told me it had to be FFL to FFL. Anyway, so I call my local FFL dude. He tells me much what all youse guys told me "as long as it's going to an FFL it's OK". However he said that from a dealer's standpoint (much what Kush told me....thanks man) there's a whole lot less potential evil red-tape when it's done FFL to FFL and that's probably why the guys wants it done that way. I can't blame him. My dealer also said that it would be much easier and cheaper for him (as a dealer) to deal with UPS instead o' me. Guess it's gonna be FFL to FFL...can't be too safe these days.
Thanks again hawgs,
Rich S.
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 21:14:18 (ZULU)
You have to go to the extreme to try to make your point. But, we aren't talking about comparing shooting straight up to shooting shooting nearly flat. We are talking about comparing "nearly flat" with different "nearly flat". Your original assertion was that MV/flat trajectory made a difference in miss distance if you fired with the rifle slightly off target (leading to my "wiggle" remark).
You are absolutely right, in a mathematically pure sense: more elevation on the sight means less horizontal component = longer time of flight. But I'm an engineer, thus willing to accept some degree of mathematical impurity. The initial horizontal component is the MV times the cosine of the el angle. The horizontal component changes, as a function of el, proportionally to the sine of the el angle. A 1 MOA difference in el, for small initial angles, makes very little difference in TOF.
Let's consider a slightly different case - no wind, rifles zeroed, and a 1 MOA wiggle in windage. Which rifle misses farthest? Answer: they both miss by 1 MOA in windage, because the time of flight didn't change between the aimed and error case, right?
Trick question. The time of flight really did change! The new point of impact is slightly farther from the muzzle than the original point of aim. So the 1 MOA windage miss is accompanied by a very small el component. It just was so small that you couldn't measure it in any practical manner. Now, change the aiming error from windage to el. Same argument applies. For rifles with flatter trajectories there is a small difference in POI for the same aiming error, but it is so small that there's no value in calling it anything but zero.
HTH
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 21:33:39 (ZULU)
I simply thought that when a projectile was appraoching it's practical accurate max. distance, the margin of acceptable error was reduced...I based this on my limited, but actual experience.. I was extending this to suggest that a comparison could be made from one projectile to the next, in order to reduce the amount of anecdotal information employed to pick a weapon system.
My understanding of ballistics is limited. My interest isnt.
I guess this relationship between caliber, velocity, recoil, barrel life and drag will remain a mystery until I figure it out myself... when I do, I'll check back in and share with all, openly.
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 22:08:46 (ZULU)
----------QUOTE------------
NIMA has produced special reference graphics of Baghdad, Iraq and the Middle East. These unclassified products are suitable for reference only and should not be used for any other purpose. This page has electronic versions for immediate download as well the points of contact for ordering the printed reference graphics. These graphics were intended to be print products and are very large files; the graphics have been compressed in alternative formats, please read the download instructions carefully.
Government organizations authorized to order maps from the Defense Logistics Agency can do so using the following stock numbers:
Baghdad K942S(BAGHDAD)
Iraq K341S(IRAQREFGRA)
Middle East K201S(MIDDLE EAST)
The public can order print versions of the graphics by contacting the U.S. Geological Survey at 1-888-ASK-USGS. More information can be found on the Catalog of Public Sale Topographic Maps, Publications, and Digital Products web site.
----------ENDQUOTE------------
Click on my name for the link or http://www.nima.mil/ocrn/nima/srg/index.html
cut and paste.
I've seen the hardcopy maps. Interesting stuff.
Joe Mahon, (or anyone else in the know)
What would work better for ground troops using civilian GPS in Lat-Long mode??
-Jet Navigation Charts (JNC) - scale 1:2,000,000 ,
-Operational Navigation Charts (ONC) - scale 1:1,000,000
-Tactical Pilotage Charts (TPC) - scale 1:500,000.
Or is this not pratical for some reason?
Military topo maps of the region are kinda hard to come by.
Thanks,
~DA
DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 22:11:26 (ZULU)
You mentioned that Tubb was shooting a 6mmX250. Isn't it a fact that he's doing something like running the 250 case into a shortened .243 die, then fireforming to get the powder capacity that he needs? I really wouldn't call that round a 6x250, and neither does he! I think that Rice posted on the Roster that he wouldnt want to pullthe trigger on a 6x250 loaded to 3000.
If guys are doing it, and getting away with it, more power to them, but history and the accepted loading manuals say no. They better stock up on Loctite 640 to hold their primers in the pockets.
I really don't want to piss in anyones Post Toasties and if all of the positive things said about the round are true I might want one for myself. But I, for one, believe very little of whats printed in magazines, even PS, and believe hardly any gun shop or rifle range scuttlebutt. This sport seems to fall victim to the "round of the month" syndrome. One competitor innovates, most of the rest emulate. The fact is that David Tubb would be a champion with almost anything that he chooses to shoot (he's that good) then add to the fact that he posesses superlative rifle building skills, and has the time and money to back him up. By the time everyone else tries to copy his combination it's obsolete and he's at Perry with something completely new!
If that's the game that people want to play then more power to them. Far be it for me to spoil a man's fun, but IMHO we ALL, especially yours truly, would be far better off spending more time at the range and our money on components;-))
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 22:32:07 (ZULU)
Does anyone here have credible info on the poison aspect? I have heard/ read some interesting things about hazards of breathing amounts of lead oxide when shooting, but have never seen any reliable, practical gauge or benchmark as to what is too much exposure when the rounds are fired.
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 22:58:18 (ZULU)
His disicpline is quite different than tactical stuff anyway. He shoots moly all the time. Has sighters and all that stuff. Yes, it isn't the cartridge thats winning for him. That round is pretty good though I sure don't know why it's better than a regular 243 or 6mm remington.
Anyway; Mark; there is a consideration. It won't kill you right away, if you smoke cigarettes I wouldn't worry about it. They'll get you first.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 23:12:41 (ZULU)
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 23:43:25 (ZULU)
Fella worked at an indoor range as rangemaster. Would step out for a smoke. Didn't wash his hands first. Got lotsa lead in the old system!
Pretty sick pup for awhile.
Spud
dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 01:02:27 (ZULU)
Quote;
"BR....Me never smokie but the LC sure do when I feeds it lead.....Heard that a guy who ran a training facility quit using non jacketed bullets because he had accumulated high levels in his blood even though most rounds were fired outdoors....."
Mark,
the smoke from shooting lead projectiles is from the LUBE used on them.
The REAL culprit of shooting lead bullets, is not the bullets.
It is the lead stypnate used in the manufacture of the primers.
This, along with handling, and having it on your hands, to mouth, to eyes, to nose, is where the lead ingestion comes from.
Indeed, some lead is atomized upon firing ( those with a open base jacketed), and lead/tin/linotype mixtures.
But, as stated the poison issue is in the Primers.
Seems an easy solution would be to make primers without lead Stypnate....
Big problem.......they are made, and are available..but, the shelf life of primers without LS, is around 2-5 years MAX.( with a substantial degree of potential misfires, at any age).
So, until a better mousetrap is devised....shoot outside as much as possible.
Dos Zap
Terry in Texas.....for Boltster.;)
Glockamolie <Glockamolie@aol.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 01:15:28 (ZULU)
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 03:28:29 (ZULU)
We are shooting 10,000 to 25,000 45 LC loads per year, using 1 Lb of pure lead mixed with 9 lbs of wheel weights. Running about 750-900 FPS depending on what we want to do with the rds and are not getting any leading problems at all. You can also drop the newly cast lead bullets directly from the mold into a plastic jug with water ( it helps slighly with harding) but be careful: Gloves Eye protection long sleeves Etc. Hit me off line. I have been casting pistol bullets since 1970
Bomac <biker3@Earthlink.net>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 05:24:21 (ZULU)
I don't think these are this years' brood. They can't be over 20 lbs or so. Bout the size of a good fox. I never saw 'em last year. If these are the yearlings and there's more comin, I may need the strafin technique to keep up. :)) I wonder if they're stunted by lack of food or somethin. I guess I should try to take one in a live trap and have DNR check it out. I put the 6.5x20x50 mildot on the 20" stealth .223 with a undude sling for A/P dogs and it's workin real well. Carry it all day and see from one end to the other.
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 13:40:18 (ZULU)
I recently purchased a Tokarev TT-33 .. and I'm really wanting to go shoot it, but I need to find out how to break it down first .. I've searched on goolge, but couldn't find anything but info about the gun .. I've fiddled with it myself, but still couldn't figure it out .. any help would be great guys .. thanks in advance
Eric <SirNightWolfe@cfl.rr.com>
FL, US of A - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 14:29:10 (ZULU)
I always considered PS a pretty good mag when it came to facts, now some of the others.... I also recieved some pretty good data from a hipower shooter who has a lot of experience with the 6x250 and was good enough to send me his load data with the cronographed vel. and his comments on the loads.
I will see if Jr. will send it back to me so I can give you more detailed info if your intrested. I think you and I had this conversation before when I was originally looking at it for tactical shooting.
I don't go by what a loading book says is max load(Within reason) because if I did I would be shooting my 260 at only 2650fps. I also don't really understand why a 243 has a hardtime pushing a 100gr bullet to 3000fps and I can push a 100gr in my 260 to 3200+fps with the same case!!
I also have not lost a 260 case yet to a primer pocket being loose. I have 500 Rem an 200 Lapua cases that I shoot. The Rem cases have wore out one barrel and part of another so they have been loaded a number of times. I guess you and I will have to just agree to disagree on this one until I build one and start ringing it out. Then one of us will owe the other a cold one.(HA) I plan on staying in the 2950 range anyway.
Medicjim..
I hope your not getting discouraged about your argument. Your just mixing apples and oranges. The key to your argument is the wind and range.
So realisticly you are correct in your assumption that the 6.5x284 is better in competition because you will always have wind.(At least where I live) The range will not always be constant or known.
But when you take away the wind and give a exact known range then any accurate rifle capable of shooting that distance has no more of an advantage than the next one. Shooter "A" should be able to shoot as well with a 308 and with a 6.5x284 both guns being equal in accuracy.
As for the "Jiggle" it will be the same as Mike said, because the bullets "Path" has been corrected to hit dead center at 800yds with the 308 and with the 6.5x284 so same jiggle for both makes same amout of miss at 800yds. Traj. plays no part in this because you have "Dialed" it out of the equation. Hope this helps!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 14:41:38 (ZULU)
Like you, my understanding of all of this stuff is limited!!!! and my interest is much less so. I'm here to learn, and to share what I know. Knowledge is one of the few things that there's more of after you give it away than there was before.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 15:21:53 (ZULU)
Mike
Mike <fnhipower@juno.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 15:37:00 (ZULU)
Until then, I'm shutting up on this issue to avoid further confusion (mostly on my part)...
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 16:05:38 (ZULU)
Healthy discussion about opposing viewpoints is good for all of us. I'm learning more and more about the Tubb version of the 6mmX250 that he calls the 6mmX, courtesy of an e-mail from Byron. If you haven't seen it check it out if you like:
http://www.zediker.com/articles/6x.pdf
As to why a .243W has a tough time reaching 3000fps. with a 100gr. bullet at normal pressures while at the same time you can clock 3200fps. from your .260R with a 120gr. bullet, I think that I have a valid explanation. First and most important, the bore area of a .264 bullet is greater than that of a .243, of course. The larger the bore area, given a case of the same capacity, the lower the chamber pressure - other things being equal. This is exactly what Wes was talking about when explained why he chose the .35 instead of the .33 bore with an improved '06 case. He can drive a 250gr. .35 cal. bullet faster with the same pressure as a 250gr. .33 cal. bullet in the same case.
Another thing to consider is the bearing surface of the bullet in the bore. As a rule, the larger bore dia. bullet of "similar" weight is going to have a shorter bearing surface, which builds less pressure and in turn allows higher velocity within that safe pressure limitation.
Both of the above rules I believe to be proven facts of interior ballistics and handloading. Now we come to something that I'm not equipped to test and therefore am unable to prove (or disprove). This is strictly my OPINION, and I really hope that I'm wrong! I think that a .260R case driving a 120gr. bullet at 3200fps is probably over safe pressure limits. I've been doing a little checking, and most authorities are reporting more like 2950 max. Not reloading manuals, mind you, which I agree are governed by liability insurance and tort lawyers, but people like P.O. Ackley and Ken Waters for example, who published long before the lawsuit bug took over. As I'm sure you're aware, dangerous pressure curves sharply upward before outward signs (like primer pockets, case life, or difficult extraction, etc.) manifest themselves. My logic may be all wet, and I hope so. I'd rather be wrong than be proven correct by an accident!
And FYI, I'm not a "loading weenie" by any stretch of the imagination. For example, I normally drive my .300WM/190SMK load to 2966fps, my .308W/175SMK goes at 2644, both to track the M3 dials (I could go faster) my .223R/77gr. SMK does 2753, and my .270W/130gr.NBT chronos at a quick 3225fps. I'm not cringing, waiting for the KB monster to show his ugly head. I enjoy pushing them fast, just not too fast is all;-) If your load is that quick and safe to boot, then you've got a real winner!
Respectfully, ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 16:29:43 (ZULU)
I hear what your saying and agree 100%. I am not one to push the limits of reloading. As ugly as I am I have no desire to make it worse.(HA)
My load for my 260 hunting rifle(700SSBDL) is a 95gr VMAX that goes across the crono at around 3250 and shoots into .6 groups for 5 shots and will print around 2.5" at 400yds. This is about the only load I have shot in it for 4 years now and have used it for mostly coyote hunting. I developed a 100gr and 120gr load for antelope and deer but never went yet.
I have a friend who uses the load for 120s in his for deer hunting and swears by it. I get no pressure signs of any kind, be it stiff extration, primer pitting or flattening or loose pockets, so until someting crops up I guess I won't worry about it.
The only powder I have had that scares me is the RL series. I had a load in my 300WM that showed nothing for pressue and was a grain down from the max in the book when I went up a half more it blew the primer in two out of three loads. I have heard since, that this can happen with RL series esp. RL-22.
I know the chamber was tight on the 300 and maybe this contributed to the problem but it is an eye opener when it happens and something I don't care to repeat.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 17:35:16 (ZULU)
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 22:11:06 (ZULU)
I know exactly what you mean about Parker Ackley. I had the pleasure of spending a lot of time with him over the period of several months during the mid-1970's when I was being punished and was forced to live in SLC for a couple of years;-)
He would attempt to explode almost any action that he could get his hands on, provided the had a stout vise, a long enough cord, and a safe wall to stand behind! All in the name of research, you know. Some of the information that I learned and the stories that he told were priceless. If I'm not mistaken, he said that the strongest action that he ever faild to destroy was the early Jap Arisaka! The world lost a whole bunch upon his passing.
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 22:27:45 (ZULU)
A fellow shooter just gave me 60+ 173gr FMJ boattails with very slight pull marks. Any idea what a good IMR 4350 load would be for those and what velocity might be from a 24 inch stock Savage stick? I know they are from military mfg, I just don't know what flavor they are (m118 or m118lr).
Festus
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage , AK, USA - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 22:46:28 (ZULU)
festus
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, AK, - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 22:57:27 (ZULU)
Incoming from my work email re: airborne lead w\attatchment.
Steve ~ hockeyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 23:38:01 (ZULU)
``Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas.''..........Quote from one of the Dixie Chicks to an audience in London.
Just so YOU know, Dixie Chicks, We are ashamed YOU are from America!!!
You three Bitches can go play Banjos in Bagdad during the first bombing run and then do an encore in Hell!
I got some CDs to put in the skeet thrower........
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 23:54:00 (ZULU)
I have been getting so many nice e-mails with attachments from all of you I didn't realize so many cared ;)
I quit a job I had for 21 years about two years ago and have been very busy and S.C. kinda went to the back burner.
BRogers, I see you're back giving sage advice. I think when I last posted you had your weenie in a knot and had divorced The Roster.I guess you found your way eh?
Windinmane,thanks for the heads up.
Thanks and I'll try to come see you all more often
Bruce Evans <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Longview, Tx, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 00:24:04 (ZULU)
What do you expect from PETA followers. Glad I never liked them.
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 01:12:11 (ZULU)
Statement from Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks
March 14, 2003
"As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush because my remark was disrespectful. I feel that whoever holds that office should be treated with the utmost respect. We are currently in Europe and witnessing a huge anti-American sentiment as a result of the perceived rush to war. While war may remain a viable option, as a mother, I just want to see every possible alternative exhausted before children and American soldiers' lives are lost. I love my country. I am a proud American."
Oops - I can imagine the mail they've gotten regarding their statement!! Spin doctors are now at work!
Sarge
Sarge <Sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 01:34:41 (ZULU)
4350 is a tad slow for .308, but it will work..
IF you can stuff around 48grs behind it, it should be a decent load..
These bullets are not M118LR's.....as they are BTHP's.
If they are FMJ's, they are 118's.
Dixie Chicks.....
Maybe they can do a joint conference call with Hanoi Jane.....
Get Sean Penn, and the rest of the rich little wah wah babies to go public.
This could very easily ruin their careers..
Country folks do not take a hankerin' to such talk...especially on foreign soil.
Dos Zap
Terry in Texas
Glockamolie <Glockamolie@aol.com>
- Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 02:40:15 (ZULU)
Someone a little while back asked about information on ART scopes. There is a guy selling an ART manual dated 1968 on the CSP website. I believe it is an ART I.
Go to CSP on www.jouster.com and look at the for sale link.
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 03:28:31 (ZULU)
For you guys casting your own 45LC (and anything else).
I wasn't concerned until I saw the amount of lead you guys are working with!
Cheap insurance, get your blood lead levels tested. It is cheap, probably less than $25.00 and can be drawn at any drawing station for most clinical labs, or at your doctors office.
In a past life I was an environmental research chemist and then a forensic chemist (hanging out with the firearms examiners every chance I got). I've run numerous health studies relating to lead poisoning. Our firearms examiners got tested 2 times a year.
I'm not sure about the exposure from the melting process, but I'd bet there is a good chance you are getting a fair dose of lead vapor as well.
And no I'm not a left wing environmental wacko, lord knows I've worked with a few!
Just given the number of rounds some of you were quoting concerns me, adding on the casting operation really freaks me out.
Most of all, keep the kids well away from that lead, it really screws them up! I've seen plenty of that first hand.
No longer the chemist, I get paid to shoot these days! I look forward to Monday, well at least when it is spent on the range, I can't believe they pay me on those days.
Be safe,
Matt
Matt L. <lfootmatt@yahoo.com>
AZ, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 03:50:26 (ZULU)
Bruce; ah yes, for your information my weanie stays in a knot.
You are a veteran of the pistol wars I believe.....You never can tell when a menace will return to the scene of a crime. I get bored.
Saw the chicks at some gig once. Total airheads despite their rather appealing sound. It's to be expected I guess....
Can you say "bitches"? That little one....wrote the book on em.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 03:55:11 (ZULU)
How you doin'? Glad you posted so I could thank you for the poly-pellets. I had a slight 'puter malfunction and lost your email address.
email to follow
Thanks much.
jc
jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 06:34:45 (ZULU)
I wonder if we aren't getting a bit anal about our shooting, ballistics, drop tables, and all. It's all valuable and good information, but how much can actually be scientifically applied in the field? In my experience you can estimate or know the range, from a variety of methods. Know the wind...at least where you are and a few other knowns taken into consideration. In final anaylsis it's an "educated" guess on the part of the shooter and perhaps spotter. Nothing more. The more experience in reading conditions and shooting the more "educated" we become. Still, it's fun to stir the pot and discuss.
I won't waste more space on the .308 vs 6.5 X .284, et al. The rifle/cartridge combination is only a tool. Some give a slight edge is all...
Time for sleep...just in from duty. Nasty fight on the block this evening. Our white supremecists are stiring the pot...intel has nothing for us to date.
At least it ain't boring...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 08:25:13 (ZULU)
Last September Andy and I and a small crew from the “Sniper’s Hide” web site went out to the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, New Mexico to shoot a week long rifle match in F-Class. Andy and I brought along our issue gear (.308 rifles w/M3LRs). We did pretty well for a couple of amateurs.
As the week went on our scores continued to hover in the middle of the pack and everyone improved day by day. I got to the point where I would shoot a possible score with a bunch of “X’s” at the 300, 500 & 600 yard line and then go back to 900 and 1,000 and loose enough points to be in the center of the pack again that day.
I found myself fighting the wind at the longer ranges. I’d watch the running mirage and pray for a boil or make a hold call using my Gen II and share that information with Andy and visa versa. Meanwhile the guys shooting the magnum rifles were dropping fewer points with every shot. I refuse to concede that they were doping the wind that much better than us.
Like so many matches before, Andy and I used the trip home to do an extended AAR and prepare a plan for the future. That’s when I decided to break out of the “tactical” mold and get me a “racing rifle”. I figure if I can stalk with the thing and carry it like I do my M40A1 then it isn’t such a specialized beast after all. We’ll see this May if it can be used in both roles.
The 6.5x.284 from the 30” barrel produces some very encouraging numbers as far as drop and wind deflection are concerned. This will allow me greater wind and range estimation error in a tactical shoot and still hit. I’ve got my new Kestrel 4000 and Palm Pilot software to use to generate a firing solution. I know that experience is a great teacher but in some way every shot is unique to my experience and I want to use as much science as possible before reaching into my SWAG-BAG.
Since the mission of the sniper includes hitting his target with the first shot then I figure any reasonable modification of the system to improve his chances is prudent. I now consider my 6.5x.284 not just a “racing rifle” but an experimental platform for tactical shooting as well. We’ll see how it works out.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 12:45:45 (ZULU)
JC...you are more than welcome.
Bruce Evans <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Longview, Tx, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 12:55:16 (ZULU)
HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 17:25:30 (ZULU)
Why are the White Supremacists stirring the pot? Either the're bored like some of us get, or they watch too much OZ on the tv set, or just out of pure meanness, and some of us do that too;-))
Andys Dad,
Kevin, you really make a good point and I would have to completely agree with your reasons to experiment. When I call anybody on gaming what I have in mind are benchrest rifles painted camo and those creations coming out of Wyoming that weigh over twenty pounds and look like a buck saw with headlights! I figure that whatever a guy can do to further the state-of-the-art is beneficial to the entire community, but if a REAL sniper can't hump it ANYWHERE he needs to go or if the combination he's using is not STONE reliable from the Arctic Circle to the Iraqi desert or the jungles of South America then it just don't belong in a Tactical meet competing against rifles that get the job done. An idea - how about an experimental class for those beasties? Are there enough to make that feasable? Just a thought!
ALAN
ps, I saw a "Tactical" rifle at a gunshow last week that weighed 28 lbs. and at first I thought that it was one of those portable Honda generators!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 17:30:49 (ZULU)
Bruce; sorry' I didn't mean to imply you were advisery but it was my way of getting your scent. Glad to have you back. I remembered your location "Longview" but was a little foggy about just how I remembered you. I am perhaps too forward with "sage" advice these days. My good friend the Catman is taking the day off, I think he's a bit burnt out on it and I am too. Rick, is apparently busy or charcoal grey. CDC is apparently still pissed at me as he hasn't posted since I came back so blame me for that one. Jaeger is on a secret mission. PeterR is silent so JR, Pete L, Sarge,Alan,Bolt, Pat, Kevin, Doc and I are the resident relics with guest appearances by Steve, Scott, Bruce, Bobby and some interesting new talent. . Posting is down and subjects seem to drag a bit, but keeping the pot stirred all I can is what I do.
Remember these guys?
James R. Jarrett, Dick Culver, John R. Furgerson, Don Bain, Craig Roberts, Bill Byford,Sgt. Gimmellie, Jeff B, Lemay,Don Farmer, Al Ostapowcz, Russell Taylor, Bruce (ole dog), Jerry Rice,Trigger 50, Stefan, Torf, Torsten,Bill Wylde, Cory Wilson,Stefan, Nato Steve, Hexa and lots of others my old brain won't recall right away. Those were the days, my friends.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 18:20:33 (ZULU)
Spud
Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 19:18:00 (ZULU)
E-mail downrange.
N/A
Spud
Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 19:24:21 (ZULU)
You have mail, no attachments.
John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, TX, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 19:36:54 (ZULU)
I have surgey on Weds, and once I am sober enough from the drugs I will start working on several articles for SC. I will be bed bound for a few days.
Working on a few teaching gigs when I heal. May have some great stuff for you guys, working with some of the best ever setting up.
Wes, damm glad to hear you are doing better.
Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 19:47:51 (ZULU)
Seriously. What happened to 'em all....well, maybe 'cept Trigger50 ;))))).
Later,
RichS.
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 21:14:55 (ZULU)
Yote Bait.....
Folks come, folks go, but some of us will always be around. Hell, where else could we go and make just one little mention of say SPINDRIFT or RU..RUUU...GGGEEE (YOU KNOW WHICH RIFLE I MEAN) and get so many people upset??????? hehehehehehehe
6.5x284....
I wish you guys would quit talking about them so dang much! Will never be able to afford one unless they come out in factory or I sell half a dozen of the cheap assed riffles that I have now.
Well hot dang!!!!!
I wasn't last in the F-class last Sunday in the individual or team! Miracles do exist.
Time to hit the tiller again, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 21:24:00 (ZULU)
"WATERPROOF -- Kowa scope models TS-9 (50mm), TS-610 (60mm) and TSN (77mm) are NOT waterproof. The scope is protected against dust and fine rain if the eyepiece is attached. DO NOT expose the scope during a heavy rain or put in water. DO NOT detach the eyepiece in rain or heavy humidity; in such conditions it is also recommended not to turn the focusing knob too often.
Kowa scope model TSN (82mm) -- This series IS waterproof allowing the owner to use in rain, however do not immerse in water and operation of the focusing knob when wet should be avoided as much as possible. "
I pulled this off the Kowa web site; http://www.kowascope.com/
Hope this helps,
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 21:48:58 (ZULU)
Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 22:16:01 (ZULU)
Thanks
Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 22:53:15 (ZULU)
I think we all have times when we either can't remember or don't know the answer. I know I couldn't remember and I have a TSN-1 and a 821 so I had to look it up for my own piece of mind as well.
I've always had mine in the padded case to ward off my rough handling and the occasional oops! I wouldn't go swimming with either but I think they can hold their own in the occasional sprinkle.
Later,
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 23:26:23 (ZULU)