Sniper Country Duty Roster

March 2003

Steve Six, I would recommend the Dillon 550B but I'm not anal about reloading. I believe practice is far more important than Bench Rest accuracy. The 550 reloads very good ammo but if I was doing BR stuff I would use a single stage.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 02:02:06 (ZULU)

  You have mail, no attachments.

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 02:32:31 (ZULU)

Testing a couple of Powder's tomorrow we hope.  Should be interesting ... VARGET VS..Powder "X"... Tune in at 6 for a live report!

Steve; You can get as precision or complex as you want with reloading. Forsake not the fine measurements and remember that consistancy is God in this business. All that stuff you mentioned may seem anal but it's like my hunting partner and I were talking to night. "We measure every charge to within a .1 grain, not because we think our equipment might vary... We measure it because we want to know for sure that if something varys our powder measurements have not! We trim everything to exact dimensions not because we know it will make a difference but if something is making a difference we know that it is not our dimensions!"

But every thing has it's limits and Bench rest techniques might just affect your mental health if you are exposed for years to that kind of precision.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 05:53:08 (ZULU)

"Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without a accordian player"

Eric Reinhard <reinhards@cox.net>
Abilene, TX, USA - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 10:07:32 (ZULU)

Check this out,Kalifornicstan usin big brother web on gun owners

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/02/28/MN40941.DTL

OUT

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 10:18:29 (ZULU)

Brodgers, thanks for your input.  I hope I didn't offend with the "anal" comment.  If all of the fine measurements are necessary for accuracy then they're not anal.  

In fact, I'd like to have a lot of the equipment in the Sinclair catalog, however, costs would really add up.  That's why I'll be looking for a reloading manual(s) that explain what's really necessary initially (and why) vs. what's nice to have vs. when you're ready to go all out.  

That way I can start out with the basic equipment I really need and add the extras as required without spending money on equipment I'm not ready for or don't really need.

Dirty Steve, a lot of people have recommended the 550B and get good results with it.  The capability of the 550B is not in question. The concerns I've read about with the 550B are that, with a progressive, there's too much happening at once for a novice to keep track of.  

I'm not sure what to think about that argument, but the potential problem is easily avoided by starting with the AT500 and upgrading later if needed.  I'm still leaning towards the 500.  An added benefit is that I could save some money on the initial set up.

First things first, though.  I still need to read up.  Has anyone read "Handloading for Competition" by Glen Zediker or "The Precision Shooting Reloading Guide" and if so, would you recommend them?

Thanks again

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 10:32:32 (ZULU)

Sierra reloading manual is a must.  Newer edition the better.  Even if some of youse guys don't use it, I know you have at least one edition on your shelf..It's informative.  Hodgdon manuals, I like the powder manufacturers reloading books, as most of them are using ballistic test barrels to come up with their data.  Cartridges of the world by Frank Barnes, just for a read.  There's a start anyway.  Pick up whatever books you can, you can never have enough books..

Bill,

I respect the hell out of the BR guys, but, I LIKE the tactical crowd.  More my kinda people..  I bet if ya popped ina shooters pub, you could spot the dif between the two types.  BR would order a half pint of lager, a shooter would order the pint.  BR would talk your ear off about how the night before he separated each grain of powder by hand under an electron microscope, using only the very best, as this is what gave him a .125" group instead of that .128" group the week before.  A shooter would all ready be 3/4 thru his second pint, explaining to you he was running late this morning, so he quick grabbed some emptys, scooped up some 4350, planted his bullets, checked OAL in the car on the drive to the range, and by gawd he wish he knew how much powder he threw, cuz hell he shot all right today, won some damned plaque he ain't got room fer..  BR would come over to shooters table after draining his half, leaving a little at the bottom of the glass, congratulate him, but better get home, got some reloading to do.  Shooter would shake BR's hand, tell 'im thanks and good luck tomorrow, order another round as we're not done tellin lies..

You don't meet guys like Brian Sain over the bench..Like I said, my kinda people.

Said all in fun youse humourless bench rats, ha...  I'll never forget the order for a BR blank that came thru when I was at SoDak.  Tolerance was 0.0000" on groove diameter, no room, he wanted it exact to his last barrel..  Soop says 'he wants a hummer', I said 'well, he better talk to Janet on that one boss!!  I just make the barrels..' hah...

Consistency is the main thing, that's why you reload.  Like Bill said, if you keep everything uniform, well, it makes it easier to troubleshoot if some problems arise..  Same with anything I guess..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 12:54:32 (ZULU)

The 550B is a good buy for novice or experienced. If you like, you may run one case at a time through, just as you will when setting it up. The dodgy part for me is the powder measure, but they sell a part that allows one to pour the charge in with a funnel.

That said, I still load the bulk of rounds I shoot on a Rockchucker. Last year it was about 4000, for Highpower and Palma.

The Dillon is mostly used for AR ammo and .45 ACP, about 4000 of those, also. The count would be higher, but I have yet to get the dies and setup for an XC gun.

I wish that Zedicker's book had been available when I first got started. PS guide, not so much.

I find reloading very tedious and try to cut as much time from it as possible while producing the best quality I can. Among your tools should be a chronograph, I believe. Ranks right up there with a powder measure, and can save a lot of time.

Feel free to e-mail.

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USASteve in Tampa - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 13:02:39 (ZULU)

After the Dogs! See ya'll tonight. Let's see I got my binos my rifle my shells my diabetes and my nitro. Here's to it!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 13:27:03 (ZULU)

IMHO you select the reloading equipment to match your skill and capability of your stick.  If both of you can shoot 1/4 MOA consistency then a single stage press with all the bells are needed.

If you shoot MOA then the progressive press should meet you  needs

with the min bells

if you shoot 2 MOA maybe a Lee powder scoop and a Ideal handloader will fit your needs.

Pick your equipment and increase quality as your skill improves

most loading equip will reload  ammo to exceed  most shooters skills if they adhear to the basic princples and I agree that consistency is one of the most important parts of the reloading skills.

Why reload  1. save money--- more bang for the buck.  2 custom tailor ammo to your shooting needs. 3.take advantage of the accuracy of your particular stick.  there is some excellance factory ammo out there.

IMHO

Semper Fi

Bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 15:35:11 (ZULU)

People commiting crime of this sort are not punished, theft, burgulary etc has become de-criminalised in Europe, if i find out who it was he better get ready to say goodbye to his frigging knee caps, nice little trick with the cordless drill should refrain him from further crime.

On a brighter note, was in town this morning for the yearly carneval celebrations, there was a heavey police presence and they did a good job, and i was pleased to see only one person using the occasion as a political arena to spout anti war crap. The Germans, and i am convinced of this fact and have taken Marco's girlfriend out of the equasion as she is Dutch, do definately have the very best looking female law officers i have ever seen, it almost makes you want to get arrested just to give em your number...

JR n Jon, getting ready for the IWA!!!, i'm getting thirsty JR...maybe we can hitch you up with one of these fraulines ?!!

Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 18:38:45 (ZULU)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you to get these books, but they came recommended to me. I'm just starting out as well. I found a guy who is willing to coach me some, so I can cut down on the learning curve. These are some of the books that have been recommended to me:

'ABCs of Reloading'

'Metallic Cartridge Reloading'

'Handloading for Competition'

'Sierra 5th Ed. Rifle manual'

I'm just about done with the handloading for comp book. It's very detailed, but a bit over my head. I think it will be an excellent reference after I have some loading experience under my belt. It is definitely written with the highpower shooter in mind. The ABC book was a little more helpful initially.

The gentleman who has agreed to coach me also recommended starting with a 550. It's what he uses so it's nice to know someone who already has it figured out and is willing to help.

Hope that helps,

John Levens

PS I'm now getting infected mail. Last one from Gooch. I have to admit it made me smile. I feel like I'm starting to belong. Of course I'll smile even bigger when we get news that Bolt has nailed the SOB.

John Levens <SirSaxII@aol.com>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 18:49:09 (ZULU)

Let's discuss your "select the reloading equipment to match your skill and capability of your stick".  I think that's OK if you are satisfied with the status quo, but not if you want to improve your marksmanship.

I look at the rifle and ammo as tools with which to measure my marksmanship skill.  In engineering, we want our tools to be an order of magnitude more precise than the thing which we are measuring.  At that point, the error in the tool is insignificant compared to what's being measured.  If you find something out of spec, it's the process, not the measurement.

I want to know that when a shot is blown, it is my fault.  Then I am able, if inclined, to analyze my behavior and find the error of my ways.  If the rifle or ammo are suspect, then I may be tempted to blow off a miss as being other-related.  It's harder to pick out my contribution to the problem if the rifle/ammo are somewhat random.

Now, I am not saying I go for bench-rest precision ammo if I'm a MOA+ shooter.  But I will go for the best ammo I can craft or buy with the tools/funds available.  Ditto for rifle and accessories.  In the hopes that someday I won't have the excuse "It shoots better than I do."

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 19:00:31 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 19:37:07 (ZULU)

          Zediker's books are great, and funny too! IMHO, you use what you've got until your ability or your rifles quality shows you that your ammo is holding you back from further improvement. Then you correct that problem and start searching for the next thing to fix. Always keep a control setup that stays constant and make only one change at a time. This will keep you from chasing your tail.

          No need for the high production setups until you have discovered your "pet" loads and want to crank out a bunch of keepers. Too much setup time on the multi loaders when you're changing bullets, OAL's, powder and charges, primers, brands of brass, etc.

          Years ago, I went to Wilson bench dies and a Sinclair arbor press with a Redding 3BR measure so I can brew up ten of this and twenty of that without having to reset everything on my Dillon 650 everytime a newly tried load was disappointing. If you're doing everything right you'll eventually find a keeper round to set up your production stuff for, and you'll buy bulk quantities of the components used. Makes no sense to hear about a "magic load" then crank out a hundred plus rounds only to find out after twenty rounds that it doesn't work worth a crap in your rifle.

           One more piece of advice, then I'll shut up. There are certain loads with bullets, cases, primers, OAL's, and powders (&charges) that are known to the old graybeards as naturals in certain calibers. You'll hear something like "if this load doesn't shoot for you, there's something wrong with you or your rifle." It's probably true! Start with them to save alot of time, money, and worry.

         Eric,

               I've played with some scopes in the Nikon Monarch line and IMHO they are excellent and well worth the money. Bear in mind that they are not made to drop off cliffs, etc. but they are not priced that way either!

               Haven't had the chance to investigate their new Monarch Gold 30mm tube line or their Tactical lineup. I understand that Undude is testing the Tac's for a review, hopefully soon.

HTH,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 20:02:59 (ZULU)

I'd get the AT500 and a toolhead that will allow you to use standard dies.  

I'd get a set of Redding Competition dies in 308 or a set of Redding S type dies in 308 and an Forster Ultra seater.  When I ordered the bushings for the neck sizer, I'd load a bullet in and measure the diameter of the loaded neck, then order that exact same size and one smaller.  

I'd get a RCBS hand primer.

I'd get a RCBS 5-0-5 scale.

I'd get a Forster Bonanza case trimmer set or a wilson case trimmer set.

I'd get a Holland VLD camfer tool for inside mouth camfer and use it for both, it'll knock the side shaving off with the edge.

I'd get a sinclair or Lyman flash hole de-burring tool.

I'd get a $25 set of calipers and an extra shell holder.

THEN:

I'd get one bag of Winchster 308 brass and trim it to 2.005", debur the flash hole and put a camfer in the case mouth.

I'd get 50 Lapua 308 cases. Trim to 2.005" (they won't need it) and put a camfer inside the case mouth.  (that's more than what they'll need)

I'd get 100 WLR standard primers and 100 Federal 210M's.

I'd get 1lbs VarGet.

I'd get 1 box 175 SMK's, non Moly.

I'd load 20 WLR's into the hand primer and prime out 20 of the winchester cases, then measure out 44.2gr VarGet, charge the case and seat a 175SMK to 2.810" and put them aside.

Now, I'd take 10 Lapua cases and prime them with Fed 210M's and charge them with 44gr Varget and seat a 175SMK to 2.827".

I'd take the other 10 and primer them with 210M's, charged with 45gr Varget and seat a 175SMK to 2.827".

Now,, go shoot the 20 winchster loads at 100, and the first 10 44gr Lapua cases at 100 yards, you should have 6 sub 3/4 moa groups.  Now,, feeling cocky, take the last 10 Lapau loads, drop back to 300 and shoot a 1.5" group.

The 45gr load sucks at 100, but it starts to work it's majic at 300 and beyond.  The other two loads work good at 100 yards with factory chambers and barrels, but start to show their ass beyond 600.

Now,, I have to advise that you work up your loads.  Beyond that,, this stuff is too easy.  Don't sweat the small shit.

Maybe 'Lito could post his procedure for loading lapua cases.  it is FAR shorter than my disertaion.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 20:06:06 (ZULU)

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 23:13:02 (ZULU)

I would like to buy about two months of little global warming if anyone has any to spare.

Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 00:02:05 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 00:24:11 (ZULU)

http://www.pbase.com/image/13820751

Wasn't sure if I ever got you a copy of this one.

~DA

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 02:31:58 (ZULU)

Ho Hum! If you like the smaller grains for dumping... but we found no real differnce in the Lyman dumper. NADA. Maybe 500 yard test in the next few days. Wind too high less the results be skewed.

Chris; you got the formula. That's all good advice.

Had to grin a bit in places as the practicality and irony of it all!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 02:51:12 (ZULU)

Buy Redding dies as mentioned above.  Buy the best stuff at the beginning, otherwise you'll buy "again".  Sucks.  I started out w/ RCBS and Hornady dies.  Went to Forster and Redding.  Nothing wrong w/ Forsters. Cheaper than Redding, but Redding is the "one".

Lapua brass.  Too much variance w/ the others if you buy a box of 100 at a time.  Pick your primer, but WLR works good for me.  VARGET!  Temp. stable.  Same load year round.  44gr and a 175 SMK works pretty well.  Work up to it.

I use an old JR RCBS press. 28 yrs old.  Rockchuckers are good.  

Forster case trimmer, 505 powder scale, dribbler, 3 BR measure, (I don't have one, I still use my old Ohaus). RCBS Case Master (set it on a SOLID surface, no padding underneath, and watch your "rolling" technique.)  

On the Lapuas, some guys don't, but I deburr the flash-holes and ream the primer pockets w/ the Sinclair tools.

I "BUMP" the shoulder on my cases every time after I shoot 'em in a Redding Body Die. Then I neck size w/ a Redding Bushing die.  Check length. Use the fancy Redding mic-type bullet seater.  Most, 95 out of 100 will run out at .003" or less and most of THEM at right around .001".  The few that run-out more I can use for the 200 and 300 yd lines at our matches.  Everything else is good to go thru 1K.  

Get a good Chrono.  I have the Millenium, but there are those that prefer other brands.  As long as it works.

I buy most of my stuff like dies and tools from Sinclair.  Good outfit and only a flat rate of $6.95 S&H

I have shot 1/2 moa all the way from 200 thru 1k yds. w/ this set-up.

I just wish it was all on the same day!!

MAMA NATURE SUCKS!!

I probably forgot something...

YMMV

My .02 cents.

Works for me.

Semper-Fi,

Spud

HA!

Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 03:15:29 (ZULU)

Sain,  When are you comming up this way, we need to party again. You signed up for the Badlands Match yet.  

Kevin, Your New AR Upper is bustin its first holes tomarro.  Stay tuned.

George Out  

George Gardner, G.A.Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
NKC, MO, USA - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 04:35:11 (ZULU)

Tony B., got the fax.  You have saved me much trouble!  Thanks for your quick support!  You are definately one of the good guys here!

Must be why I hang around here!  I won't let virus spreadin' rodents and African bankers run me off!

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 05:53:50 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 11:10:42 (ZULU)

I had a lot of questions that I didn't ask cause I didn't want to clog up the roster with a bunch of newbie questions.  That's why I figured I start with a few good books.

Chris, Spud, Alan, Jim, and Brodgers answered a lot of the questions I left unasked.  Advice saved to a file and printed.  Thanks.

Books (and videos) will be ordered tommorow.  I think the opinions and advice about getting started will be invaluable in achieving my "only buy once" objective.

Thanks again

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:19:37 (ZULU)

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 13:08:21 (ZULU)

Missed serveral Prairie Dogs and went to check Zero on the Chinese BSA Mildot scope. Sure Nuff 2 inch low and 1 right. Cause yet to be determined. Gun shot dead on 1/2MOA after that. We'll get to the bottom of it. Found the other TASCO 30mm 8X40x60 Custom shop beauty makes a fair spotting scope. Other than Tent peg hammer it's not worth much. IF it had Mil Dots it would be nice for ranging but nada.  

Off to the Sagebrush.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 13:21:43 (ZULU)

Yote Bait, Been a lot of Yodel dogs around here lately. I saw one yesterday I was going to try to shoot with the Glock as a mercy killing. He was in sad shape, limping with real thin hair. Tail was with out the longer hairs. Damn thin was skinny as a rail. He kept stepping behind bushes as I would get lined up for the shot. Felt bad about not getting him. The only day my AR was tucked a way were I couldn't get it.

Pete L. don't feel to bad about the smash and grab.  In Texas its a misdemeanor crime, used to be a felony. We caught a guy recently that was out of jail on bond for 6 burglary of vehicles and we got him on two more. He said that's fine the sentances will be concurrent so I don't care. I wish I were a judge. But I guess there can be only one Judge Roy Bean.

Steve6, Definitly buy the Redding dies. No if ands or buts. There are cheaper dies but not better. Ok, there might be better (I don't know all that's out there) but you wont regret getting them.

Bolt how do you like the weather? Your getting what we had on Tues and Weds. I had to qualify with my shooting Irons wearing a dang parka. Instructor said you gunna take off the jacket. I says nope, I'll drop some points plus its good practice.

Dirty Steve, out.

Dity Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 14:20:35 (ZULU)

Bolt:  Hang in their bro.  We're taking up a collection to send you some wool undies and half a case of Wild Turkey.  Tests have shown that several glasses of Gobbler and Coke don't really warm you up but you really don't care at that point either.

NOTE TO MY FRIENDS THAT HAVE RIFLES BUILT BY KMW:  We have just returned from the North American Sniper Champs.  4 days at Camp Shelby Natl Guard Training Center in the rain, mud and cold.  Teams from Boise ID, New York, Ohio, Alabama, Germany, Czech Republic and others were in attendence.  Competition was fierce and there was tons of top notch equipment on the line.

For the 3rd year in a row, the Top Gun Individual and Top Team awards went to operators shooting KMW built tactical rifles.  For the last 3 years a different team and individual has been awarded these honors but our rifles managed to stay at the top!!!

I wanted to share this with my customers that visit and post on this site to let them know that the materials and methods that go into their KMW rifles continue to hold their own against M24, M40-A3, McMillans, Robars and other custom makers.  We will continue to put our equipment in the mud all over the country and continue to evolve our building techniques and components so that a rifle leaving our shop is the best we can provide.  

I am happy to be in a position to donate a prize rifle for the upcoming SniperQuest shoot.  Rest assured that no shortcuts are taken with the work and components going into that rifle.  It will have KMW stamped into the barrel and will be representative of our work ethic and experience.  Best of luck to all the SniperQuest competitors.  

Everybody stay safe,

Terry Cross

KMW-Long Range Solutions.

Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, U.S. - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 15:17:51 (ZULU)

GEORGE G: Yeah, we need to hook up again some time. Crazy days, these. Got several travel gigs going and out of town schools. Plus, they just asked me to teach the firearms instructor course at the Academy. Not to mention Spring Break w/ the kids and a seperate vacation w/ momma coming up. Wheeeww. Everybody wants a piece of my time. Gotta work my ass off to pay for it all. I am sure everybody here can relate.

You sir, need to join ASA and get on Snipersonline. You are an asset to the community, imo. Tell Eric hey.

Later, BK

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 16:08:23 (ZULU)

Found a member of dad's sniper team today, name address email, the whole shebang..  You know, I've been collecting data for well over 5 years now, piecing the history back together, have had dad record some of his stories on tape when he remembers to, and in another 20 years I might have something!!!  Bloody hell, it is an exhausting hobby..  Well worth it though, my tribute..

Frauleins bevare!!  Ze Yankee lands in 10 days..  Pretty good with a sausage I hear..I wonder if they're freakishly strong, I've seen the way they handle the steins... Yee haw!!

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 19:41:25 (ZULU)

Dennis, moma nature sucks, ok. but does she swallow ?

Steve, i'm sick of this de criminalisation shit, i get busted more for bieng 5km over the damn speed limit than i do for stealing the frigging car i broke the speed limit in, its screwed,I'm sick of it. Guys i am very seriously looking at a long term future in the USA, working on a project at the moment that could entail a move to the US in a couple of years( Yes Jon, you know what i'm talking about, things are getting seriouse and hopefully will turn out favourably,) location will be in the near of one or the other NASA site, i'm gonna need a job, any ideas are welcome.

Our tenant up stairs celebrated her 30'th birthday last night, had a good bunch of folks around, lots of interesting conversation, some spanish folks there, now i liked thier outlook and even the germans where actualy like minded, it warms the heart and soul, or was that the whole case of beer i drank all to my self,  shit thats almost 8 litres of beer, JR i am gettin on form for the IWA, i hear the local talent have a game called hide the salami, I'm sure the rules are pretty simple. Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 20:19:39 (ZULU)

I'd like to throw my hat in the ring along with the others who have asked about a good GPS unit.

It may have been discussed to death sometime back, but after slogging through the archives (thanks to John Leveron for his outstanding work on the search engine)I haven't found the info I need to make an informed purchase.

Which is better, Magellan or Garmin? Which brand has the best street maps and topo maps?

Thanks,

jc

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 23:30:30 (ZULU)

my vote goes to the Garmin.  I've used III's and V's and they both work great.  As far as map quality, it'll depend on what you want to buy, but the Garmin is very user friendly and easy to hook up to a computer to load or download your points, maps etc.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 23:35:07 (ZULU)

Garmin GPS 12......our first unit....works great.....very happy with it.

Ref: 6.5x.284

I finally got to the range to chronograph my next set of loads.  48 grains of IMR4350/139 Scenars...2,892 fps no pressure signs....sub 1/2 MOA groups...extreme spread was wide.  Chris, what primers did you mention that reduced your variation???  Do I dare make a two grain jump for the next rounds?

Ref: Sniperquest 2003

I'll be there...just got the schedule clear.  Andy can't make it so I'm bringing a ringer.

Ref: Gooch

I saw his post over on Sniper's Paradise.  For some reason he can't reach us here from his computer in the Land of the Rising Sun.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 23:46:50 (ZULU)

you have mail, no attachments.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Monday, March 3, 2003, at 00:26:02 (ZULU)

  I can get you a job. Pay really sucks though. Fortunately, I'm in Alabama where the fishing is good, hunting is good, and there is always something in season. It's one of the few states where you are expected to own guns.

  Next week I'm going to join a shooting club about 30 minutes from here. They have a 1k yard rifle range and several different types of matches.

  Where ever you locate to in America, it has to be better than Europe.

GPS;

  I want one with good topography and easy to use. Sometimes I'm teknologikuly empaird.

.300WM / 6.5X.284;

  Does anyone know if either of those will operate in a M1903 action? I know a .308 will with a little tweaking, but I have no idea about the others. For those who don't know, the '03 is caliber .30-06 Springfield.

  I have a '03 barreled receiver that I picked up fairly cheap and will build into a custom rifle. I'll send it out to have a barrel done and assembled. I just want to know what calibers I can make work. I would like to shoot 1k yards with reasonable success. It won't be a tactical or hunting rifle, just a range toy.

  If there is a good load for the .30-06 for long range, I may just have the barrel done in it. Then I would save a lot of time and work. Just getting ideas.

                            LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 00:53:47 (ZULU)

for a range rifle, I'd consider a 6.5x55.  The Swede may give you a bit less pressure, and will still perform well to 1K.

If you're not opposed to shooting a 30-06 though, check with Montana Marine on www.longrangehunting.com .  He's had great luck with 30-06's.  If I'm not mistaken, our own USSR Don has as well.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K mathc at AEDC, March 16th. , WCRC's HSTM 3 gun tactical match has been rescheduled for May 10,11. If you're not locked down due to Mothersday,, come on out and shoot., Get with me for details and drive directions. - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 01:57:10 (ZULU)

Any luck on the Puter' dik, that's sending out the crap mail??

I have posted here twice in the past 1-1/2 years, and I am getting barraged,,,,,,

Is there any way to ferret out this weasel, and cause some pain??.

If not, then we ( Marius, and the gang), are gonna need to figure out a system for hiding our e mail addy's......

Someone definitely has it in for the "Profession"........

Dos Zap

Glockamolie <Glockamolie@aol.com>
- Monday, March 3, 2003, at 01:59:46 (ZULU)

... no hairy armpits though.

Oh what the hell ... hairy armpits too.

Is it just me, or do ya'll get a little leery when a German chick asks if you want to take a shower?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, March 3, 2003, at 02:02:28 (ZULU)

".300WM / 6.5X.284;

  Does anyone know if either of those will operate in a M1903 action?"

I have a friend who has .300 WM built on the 1903 action, it does work.  I don't know much more about it but can ask if you're interested.

Later,

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 02:18:24 (ZULU)

You really need to check out the new Garmin Rino 120. I've been working with it for several weeks now and I'm extremely impressed. GPS with FSR/GRMS 2-way radio. Up to a 5 mile range with the GRMS channels. The GPS part of the unit locks to the satellites very quick and accurately. Easy to use and learn interface. Check out all the specs at:

http://www.garmin.com/products/rino120/

You can find them on the net for as cheap as $210. My vote goes to Garmin, this model or any other one.

John Levens

John Levens <SirSaxII@aol.com>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 02:25:47 (ZULU)

Be careful of 1903 receivers with serial numbers below 800,000.  They are supposed to be unsafe with modern ammo.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The muddy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 03:59:13 (ZULU)

   You have mail. No attachments. Thanks.

Chris;

   Thanks. I would love to keep the .30-06 if I can make it work that far. It would be very much easier on supplies. I have a few of them so I wouldn't have to buy any dies,etc.

   I realize I will spend some bucks on a good barrel, so I want to get all the info I can before I commit to it.

Doc;

   It is a high number Rock Island Arsenal. Barrel date is 11-18. It has Hatcher holes. I believe these were done on the double heat treated receivers. Can't remember, I'll look it up in my book.

Remington 7400;

   I ordered a Rem 7400 Hi-Gloss for a customer last week. It came Friday and I was less than impressed. It had a good feel but was real cheaply finished. I cleaned rust off the barrel and the wood checkering was shaggy. It looked like they checkered it with a wire brush, the shavings were still attached to the wood. Very rough feeling.

  I was going to send it back when my customer said he expected it to be that way. He knew some guy who bought one recently and his was the same way. I guess he can clean it up.

  I guess you can't buy nice guns anymore unless you spend big bucks on them.

              LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 04:26:34 (ZULU)

Hunting was good today but Murphy was on the job. Dogs came and went regularly. They seemed to be scenting hunters at 500 yards and they didn't even stop to smell. Just circled wide open and kept going. Sometimes we hit a few way out runners but not today. 2 Dogs came up from a ditch just below my line of sight at 20 yards and immediately picked me up. They left looking like that greyhound on the side of that bus. I took a shoot and holler shot and it sounded like we might have had a hit but the sage was so thic

k we never found him. It was a comedy of errors on our part. I carried that heavy VSSF Remington with the 26" barrel in 22-250. It was kicking my butt and the last call I decided to leave the bipod in the truck. The only place I needed one. was on a hill with my feet higher than my head trying to raise that barrel high enough for a shot. Well anyway I missed him.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 3, 2003, at 04:36:27 (ZULU)

        The trick is - before you enter the shower - make sure there are towels there!

Jody,

     Truth is, you can chamber anything in an '03 that you can in a standard action M700 or M70. It has the standard boltface, will have to be opened up for a magnum. May or may not need work on the rails, etc. Not a thing wrong with building a .30-'06! It was a target champ long before ALL of us were born. Advice that I've given here before - if you have an UNALTERED barreled action some of the collectors on the CSP site (and others) may offer you enough for it to let you buy a new rifle, or at least a Win. or Rem. builder. Otherwise if converting it I recommend going with an '06 based round, like the .280, .270,.25-'06 .35Whelen, etc. No mod's necessary, fit the magazine and boltface, maybe a 6.5-'06 if you like experimenting.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 04:40:05 (ZULU)

   My receiver is Rock Island Arsenal serial 361115. The problem receivers(low serial numbers) were below around 260000.

Alan;

   Thanks. So far it looks like I may consider a target barrel in .30-06, it's just that I've never seen one used for 1000 yards.

                LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 04:50:49 (ZULU)

  Check out this site

    http://gpsinformation.net/

  Or you can click me name.

  Garmin is defnitely favor.

Jessie

Jessie Chang <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 06:21:06 (ZULU)

I have seen too many new shooters buy expensive equipt with all the latest bells and couldn't hit a 12" gong off a bench rest at 200 yards, and refused any assistance, but will tell you about the $1000/2000  worth of reloading equipment they just purchased.

Practice, Practice Practice, use the money spent on "expensive" reloading equipment to buy powder, bullets and primers.  When the shooter can outshoot his current rifle, then buy the best one he can afford.

If you really want to piss someone off take a 45 single action to a 5 pin,  bowling pin shoot and beat the socks off those that have the $1500 and up custom 45 autos (this take shooting 12000-15000 rds a year and using a timer)

This get reconfirmed every year at hunter's sight in day, along with stories of 500 yr off hand shots(kills) at record  _______________ (fill in the blank)

On the other hand, another hunter shows up with a military 98 Mauser with a scope and  shoots 5 rounds into a 200 yd 3 to 3 1/2 inch group. It is the only rifle he has and he gets a deer every year. Why??  Maybe because you see him out to the range 6 or 7 times a year, shoots a box of 20 then goes home. On the Hunt he uses factory ammo, on his range trips he uses reloaded ammo.

I am a believer that you should get the best you can use/need, but it is practice, practice, practice, with an coach, even if its a fellow shooter.(bad practice reinforces the bad habits)

but then again it's IMHO

Bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Monday, March 3, 2003, at 09:05:46 (ZULU)

 On reloading I have to agree with BMG Mike. You need to buy good dies and equiptment to start off with. If you don't you will be buying it twice.

 I have found dies and brass to be the biggest varriables in accuracy. Buy good BR dies either Redding or Forrester and good brass. If you shoot past 500yds then prep your brass. Neck turning and primer pocket prep all the little things come into play out past 500yds.

 I am with Mike, if I miss I want to know it was my fault and not something I could have prevented by paying more attention to detail.

Good luck you will have many hours of enjoyment and frustration ahead of you.(HA)

DakotaAviator..

Thanks will check out the sight.

Chris..

 I am debating if I should send off the 6.5x284 for a new barrel or just shoot it and see what happens. I have the worse luck of things going bad at the most inoppertune times. Maybe its the last name of Murphy that gets me(HA).

 Didn't get a chance to shoot this weekend to damn cold and windy. I did finsh loading up about 600rds of 260s. Its nice to finally have a load for it so I can start stocking up for summer shooting. I just finished off my 9th 8lb keg of varget. Lets see now how many barrels is that....

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, March 3, 2003, at 14:34:34 (ZULU)

Thanks,  

TonyM

tam308 <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!! - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 15:06:40 (ZULU)

you have incoming mail...clean...no attachments.

PJC

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
upstate, sc, US of A - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 15:06:47 (ZULU)

Good thing they let Hitler decide on how to develop and promote their air power....

We had a few old veterans of that campaign on hand, and it was something to see.  You just knew that the vail of years was torn away in an instant, that they were back at the time and place.  The stories that they related later that evening were worth travelling much, much farther to hear.  It's a terrible thing that we won't have them with us much longer, as I'm afraid that, once they're gone, we will forget everything they learned for us, the hard way.  

Something humorous....toward the end of the day, as the SS were fixin' to bug out, one of them looked at me (I was standing by a little French bistro where you could get some coffee, wine, bread and sausage and maybe a little something else) and told me to tell the Amerikaners to stay away from their women.  I had to remark that it seemed to me that the French women belonged to whoever happened to be marching INTO the town.  One of the Maquis women (I knew who they were, the Jerries didn't) gave me a big smile and said "Oh, I see you really know your French History!  

Anyway, it was a humbling thing to watch.  Kinda like being in the opening scene of "Saving Private Ryan", only the guys get to get up after a while.  I got a cold chill thinking of those that never got up.....

For anyone that has a Howa, I just got an e-mail from Badger Ordnance.  Seems they don't make bases for the Howa, the actions are drilled differently and are slightly longer than the Remington for the same calibers.  

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 17:42:05 (ZULU)

Jody, hell I'l clean toilets if it means i have enough cash for ammo and hunting tags. Ref your 06, i shoot an 06. I've mentioned it before, i shoot Hornady light magnum 165 or 180 grain ammo in it, i get same near as damn it trajectory as a standard loaded 300WM, through over 5000 rds and god knows how many lot numbers i've not seen a change in impact or zero, consistency through and through, this is the main reason why i haven't started hand loading. If i could choose but one caliber to use for the rest of my days, for everything it would be the 06. and the rifle would be my heym barreled Rem 700.

B rogers, now who is getting jealouse of someones hunting stories??? me... went to pick up all my fox pelts today from the tanners, also shared a couple of bottles of wine with my mate with the gun shop who was busy smokeing boar hams today, I've got a joint of boar in the oven right now, its just crisping nicely, left the wife incharge for 5 while i surf better go before she burns it.

JR, countdown to IWA is on,

Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 17:46:20 (ZULU)

The '06 will definately do the job at 1k.  I had Jack Krieger build me a 30-06 tactical rifle using his AMU contour barrel on a Win. M70.  The '06 really shines with the 185 and 190gr bullets.  Montana Marine loads his Rem. M700 in 30-06 REALLY hot at 2900fps with the 190SMK.  Bet he don't reload those cases too many times.  

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 17:53:08 (ZULU)

Bomac,  

I agree with the practice^n.  No matter what the quality of your equipment, you won't get the most out of it without practice.  Lots of it.  " A well-trained man with second-rate gear will take an untrained man with first-rate gear." . . . or somethin' like that.  Agree with the coach idea.  Practice does not make perfect.  Perfect practice makes perfect.

You can maximize your ROI by buying the best you can afford to begin with, both rifle and reloading gear.  That deflects the need to play with the equipment during the initial learning and practice.

I remember seeing improvement until I hit a plateau, then I had to improve my ammo before improvement began again.  My rifle still shoots better than I do - but I'm working on it.  My next plateau will result in a better rifle.

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Monday, March 3, 2003, at 19:27:37 (ZULU)

The attachment is a photo which illustrated that I will not soon forget the vets that fought during WW2. I commend you for investing your time in this manner. Those men gave a lot.

Jim

medicjim86 <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, March 3, 2003, at 19:46:58 (ZULU)

What is Our Army’s Role in War Against Terrorism?  

By General Jack Quinn

That seems like a good question, especially when so many of our young men and women may be called upon to serve in uniform.  Like many other veterans, I hope I can use my 40 years as a soldier to help our youth understand just what our nation’s Army is all about.  With America and our world facing an extremely long, drawn out and bloody conflict to destroy the acts, hatred and roots of terrorism, we may wonder, what is the nature and reality of one of the forces we will use to defeat terrorism.  Our youth will be asked to be part of this force, and yet do they know what their roles will be?  Perhaps not!

How will we fight it?  To be sure, the new enemy is operating far differently than those we have faced in the past.  While we must, and will, make certain adjustments, we will still unite in an international coalition that will use all the skill, determination and imagination available to wage military, economic, political, diplomatic and psychological warfare.  We will protect our own people and we will seek out and destroy those ruthless murderers of the world’s innocent men, women and children.  Our flexible and well led forces—united with other friendly forces, will adapt to the terrorist/guerrilla enemy; we will pay the cost in lives and material; we will battle for as long as it takes; and we will preserve our way of life for our future generations.  

Our youth will be part of every facet of our war effort.  The majority will be the core of our military forces: land, sea, air, special operations, conventional, unconventional, intelligence, both abroad and at home.  Our men and women will seek out the enemy, infiltrate his havens, destroy his support bases, deny him refuge, kill or capture him at home or abroad, and expose him to the world as the enemy of the world.  We will speak his language, know his ways and relentlessly destroy him in order to preserve the world for peace loving peoples.

What is an Army?  It is a trained, equipped and disciplined military organization, united by the skill, leadership, dedication, selflessness, courage, esprit and resolve of all its members.  It fights as part of a combined and joint force; land, sea and air.  We have combat forces and support forces.  The men and women give our Army the heart and soul, and the mission gives it the objective.  The nation gives it the love and support, and the morals of the nation give it the will to win and the endurance for victory.

There is no real parallel to the 1st War of the 21st Century.  Look, if you will, at your world map and find remote areas like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan!  Our new enemy has no battle lines or uniforms, there are no safe rear areas, there is no quarter nor mercy from the enemy, and he has no known morality. Still, our sense of morality must, and will be upheld, otherwise we are no better than the terrorist.  How will we do it?  We have the finest and bravest leaders and troops in the world.  Our skill and adaptability, our nation and its world allies, our “dimensions” of warfare, our need to save our world, and our guts and brotherhood will see us through.

Lexington and Concord, Yorktown, Gettysburg, Meuse-Argonne, Guadalcanal, Normandy, Pusan Perimeter, Tet Offensive, the Gulf War and Mogadishu—we Americans are tough—and always have been!  Now, we cannot turn the other cheek—the terrorist has already assaulted our entire national body—and the world.  War is always cruel and all our families pay the price.  Since , however, the new war has been thrust upon us—victory is our only moral option.  How will our youth fit in?

Only a small percentage on an Army is the “combat” force.  It closes with the enemy and pulls the trigger.  They are the infantry, armor, armored or air cavalry, rangers, special operation forces and Special Forces.  They will all hit hard and fast, and often withdraw and launch other strikes.

“Combat support forces”  provide artillery, air defense, aviation, intelligence and engineer support.   The “combat service support” forces provide communications, medical support, military police and logistics.  These are the brave forces that will keep our conventional and unconventional assault personnel supplied with ammunition, helicopter fuel and maintenance, medical care, appropriate fire support, unique intelligence and communications, and security for helicopters and other aircraft located at clandestine foreign locations.      

The key is combined and joint forces—all elements put together to make the force fit the mission.  Individual scouts, five-man teams, units of 50, 500 or 5,000.  Intelligence gathering, ambushes, raids, missile strikes, counter-terrorism, air strikes, helicopters, parachutes—all coordinated to seek out the enemy, kill or capture him where he is, or force him from his alleged safe havens and kill or capture him.  Yes, Americans take prisoners—we are freedom fighters, not butchers.

Many of our young Americans already have skills that the military will need.  Others will be assigned to fields that are new to them, but our exemplary noncommissioned corps will train them.  All positions are important and contribute to the victory.  Training, teamwork, trust in each other, and the knowledge that America’s cause is for friends and families.  These factors will see our nation through the dark and painful years ahead.    

Casualties are the reality of war.  Unfortunately, we have now seen the horror of civilian casualties, and we may face even more.  Our security measures will improve, and with service men and women, doing their jobs, we will succeed.  The war will be bloody and painful for all of us.  Death and destruction will break our hearts, but we must prevail.  Love and peace, and kindness and happiness must win!  We will ask more of our youth than most of us have ever given. Having served and done their share, our men and women will then join the ranks of veterans who proudly announce, “I’m glad I served my country.”

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 20:39:56 (ZULU)

Jared  

http://gpsinformation.net/

Jared <jared@mc2studios.com>
San Antonio, Tx, USA - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 22:01:44 (ZULU)

--

Big Brother is watching you - and documenting eBay, ever anxious to up profits, bends over backward to provide data to law enforcement officials

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=264863

--

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 23:12:30 (ZULU)

"Yep", he replies, "that's them."

So the guy walks over and says to them, "Wow, this is a real honor.. What are you guys doing in here?"

Bush says, "We're planning WW III."

And the guy says, "Really? What's going to happen?"

Bush says, "Well, we're going to kill 24 million Iraqis this time, and one blonde with big tits.

The guy exclaims, "A blonde with big tits? Why kill a blonde with big tits?

Bush turns to Powell, punches him on the shoulder and says, "See, smart *bleep*, I told you no one would worry about the 24 million Iraqis!"

--

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 23:15:28 (ZULU)

Sniper and Spotter conversation in Afghanistan:

Spotter: "It's like Prarier Dog hunting"

Sniper: "How so?"

Spotter: "Well they kinda look like Prarie Dogs"

Sniper: "No way Prarie Dogs are cute."

Spotter: "Well they act like Prarie Dogs, with their heads up looking around. Being stupid and such"

Sniper: "Christ you never hunted Prarie Dogs. Prarie Dogs bleed alot when you hit them. These just blow s... out. Prarie Dogs have enough sense not to shit on things that can kill them. These idiots dont"

Wonder where I heard that one?

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Monday, March 3, 2003, at 23:30:16 (ZULU)

  That's what I was looking for. I like how they have it all broken down.

To all;

  Thanks for the advice on the .30-06 & M1903. Just done research at the Springfield Reasearch page. My receiver was made in 1920 and is made of nickle steel.

Pete L;

  Actually, you'd be on the other end of toilets. I work in water and wastewater treatment. You can make decent money in it if are smart enough to pass the tests. Lots of math and science involved. We could really use a smart person.

  Alabama doesn't have hunting tags. You buy your license($16 resident)and waterfowl stamps if you duck hunt. And whatever fees for hunting club if join one. You'll have to get a hunter's eduction class as well.

  You can do all the hog hunting you want. They are not a game animal here so there is no closed season. I wouldn't eat one killed in warm weather,though. There are plenty of them in the Mobile River Delta, a few miles from my house.

  I'm about 2 hours from Stennis Space Center in Mississippi. They may have something over there for you.

  If you like partying, Mobile is the home of Mardi Gras. It is not nearly as big as New Orleans' event, but it is more family oriented. Tomorrow is Fat Tuesday and practically everything is closed around here.

Charles;

  I love re-enactments. Do you have a link or something to that event or organization?

                         LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 01:25:04 (ZULU)

Pat/Mr Bullet

Incoming, clean, n/a, re .260

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 02:51:29 (ZULU)

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 12:10:57 (ZULU)

Email, n/a.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 12:37:58 (ZULU)

Pete,

Youse know if the sws rig, well, what's the front of the receiver look like?  are they using the threaded adaptors, or do the barrels screw right into the receiver?  Or do they screw at all?  ha..Youse gotta point me in their direction, it's hard to tell what's going on in a 2 dimensional photo of their receiver on their website..

And as long as die Fraulein aren't into golden showers, it's all good..

Seven days..Going to get my Euros tomorrow..hull-rotterdam by boat, I'll be top deck sippin' duty free toddies watchin for icebergs and peugeot barges.  Wonder if I should bring a lounge chair..

Mrbullet:

Shoot me an email, I may have an idea on how to get the 6.5 barrel looked at..

Youse sig/sauer dudes,

I heard there is a guy(don't know his name, heard rumours of this) that trolls about at IWA who makes threaded adaptors for the chamber ends of the sods.  I'll try to find him and get yas some info eh!  There's a bloke here in the UK that is supposed to be attempting such a project, dunno if he's made any yet though..

later, heard NK is stirrin the pot again.  

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 19:46:26 (ZULU)

JR yep i know the photos aint to good, that will get sorted, the barrels slot in, no threads, tightened in at the side through the stock with 3 hex head bolts, the bolt lugs lock in the lugs in the barrel, scimilar set up to a Sauer 202, just beefier. Its a damn inovative system, it is scimilar to the Unique, but has the intergral picatinny and what i asume is aremington style trigger hook up, but with a jewel as standard.

North Sea ferries eh? the one from Newcastle-Ijmuiden(Amsterdam) is better, the chicks on board are far better looking and the crossing is cheaper, foods better too. When you get about 20 miles from Hull, take a look around, thats my home stomping ground, watch out for all the blond kids with sticky out ears, Hulls a dump, but a hell of a night out, some bright whit told me once that if you ask," hey babe, hows about a jump?" 1 in 27 women in Hull will say yes, dimbo me decided to try said theory one night, got slapped 3 times before i found one willing, there are plenty of Hull girls on them boats buddy !! Right, back to work in the morning.. been reading an interesting article on a Ruskie bolt sniper gun, any one else seen it SV 98 (or 99 which is the 22lr version suposedly for urban areas and developed from a biathlon rifle) from a company called Izhmash, designed by Vladimir Stronskiy, available in 7.62x54R, 308 win and to be had in the future in 338 Lap mag.

pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
- Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 20:13:23 (ZULU)

 You have incoming e-mail with no attachments.

Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof (for Bolt), Fl, USA - Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 20:16:33 (ZULU)

   McPlop it is then. If you send me your mail address(off-line of course)I can send you a current Alabama fish and game manual. You might find it interesting.

   I know of a Russian bolt action sniper. It is a Mosin-Nagant in a bullpup configuration. It think it is supposed to be designed to replace the SVD. It is 7.62X54R and I think it is made at Itzmash. I don't know if it is what you're referring to.

                 LATER

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 21:18:51 (ZULU)

New member here. This is a great site, lots of info.  Just a couple of questions I have a Rem 700 vs and I am looking for a new scope to top it off with. Most of my shooting is in the 100-600 yd meter range. I would also like to take this rifle scope combo with me to Badlands tactical or Blackwater.  I  have looked at Burris, leupold, Zeiss, and Springfields.  What I need is an honest opinion in what I should get.  I would like stay under the 1,000 dollar mark, I want the scope to be sturdy and provide the best for the buck. Well I hope any of you shooters can give this new guy some advice, it would be extremely appreciated!          Ronin Out!

James P. <Ameronin@charter.net>
Brainerd, MN., USA - Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 23:57:44 (ZULU)

Mike MIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 00:59:20 (ZULU)

      Like Mike says!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 04:03:12 (ZULU)

Take it to the BANK!  (What Mike said).

Spud

Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 04:18:40 (ZULU)

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 11:38:25 (ZULU)

On Jan. 12, 2000, Ms Cindy Williams (NOT from Laverne and Shirley TV show) wrote a piece for the Washington Post, denouncing the pay raise(s) coming service members' way this year -- citing that the stated 13% wage was more than they deserve.

A young airman from Hill AFB responds to her article below.

"Ms Williams:

     I just had the pleasure of reading your column, "Our GIs earn enough," and I am a bit confused. Frankly, I'm wondering where this vaunted overpayment is going, because as far as I can tell, it disappears every month between DFAS (The Defense Finance and Accounting Service) and my bank account. Checking my latest earnings statement I see that I make $1,117.80 before taxes. After taxes, I take home $874.20. When I run that through the calculator, I come up with an annual salary of $13,413.60 before taxes, and $10,490.40 after.

       I work in the Air Force Network Control Center where I am part of the team responsible for a 5,000-host computer network. I am involved with infrastructure segments, specifically with Cisco Systems equipment. A quick check under jobs for Network Technicians in the Washington, D.C., area reveals a position in my career field, requiring three years experience with my job. amazingly, this job does NOT pay $13,413.60 a year. No, this job is being offered at $70,000 to $80,000 per annum. I'm sure you can draw the obvious conclusions.

      Given the tenor of your column, I would assume that you have NEVER had the pleasure of serving your country in her armed forces. Before you take it upon yourself to once more castigate congressional and DOD leadership for attempting to get the families in the military's lowest pay brackets off of WIC, and food stamps, I suggest that you join a group of deploying soldiers headed for AFGHANISTAN, I leave the choice of service branch up to you. Whatever choice you make, though, opt for the SIX month rotation: it will guarantee you the longest possible time away from your family and friends, thus giving you full "deployment experience."

       As your group prepares to board the plane, make sure to note the spouses and children who are saying good-bye to their loved ones. Also take care to note that several families are still unsure of how they'll be able to make ends meet while the primary breadwinner is gone -- obviously they've been squandering the "vast" piles of cash the government has been giving them.

        Try to deploy over a major holiday; Christmas and thanksgiving are perennial favorites.  

And when you're actually over there, sitting in a foxhole, shivering against the cold desert night, and the flight sergeant tells you that there aren't enough people on shift to relieve you for chow, remember this: trade whatever MRE (meal-ready-to-eat) you manage to get for the tuna noodle casserole or cheese tortellini, and add Tabasco to everything. This gives some flavor.

      Talk to your loved ones as often as you are permitted; it won't nearly be long enough or often enough, but take what you can get and be thankful for it. You may have picked up on the fact that I disagree with most of the points you present in your op-ed piece.

     But, I will defend to the death your right to say it. You see, I am an American fighting man, a guarantor of your First Amendment rights and every other right you cherish. On a daily basis, my brother and sister soldiers worldwide ensure that you and people like you can thumb your collective nose at us, all on a salary that is nothing short of pitiful and under conditions that would make most people cringe.

      We hemorrhage our best and brightest into the private sector because we can't offer the stability and pay of civilian companies. And you, Ms Williams, have the gall to say that we make more than we deserve?

Rubbish!

A1C Michael Bragg, Hill AFB AFNCC"

--

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 16:26:43 (ZULU)

Thanks,

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 16:39:13 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Wilis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 19:44:48 (ZULU)

Regarding the Cindy Williams story, according to this web site, it's partially true....but it's not the Cindy Williams from Laverne & Shirley.

Here's the link, or you can click my name.

http://www.truthminers.com/truth/cindy_williams.htm

JB

John Bechtell <ajbechtell@yahoo.com>
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 20:10:27 (ZULU)

I ran over to the range during lunch today.  It was raining and snowing and so I went about the business of setting up my chronograph quickly.  I squatted behind the bench to shoot because the seat was covered with slush.  The fog was thick and I couldn’t get a nice clear sight picture.

I fired two five shot strings over the chronograph and recorded two sets of data.  My loads are now clocking 3,013 fps and my five shot groups were .22 and .40 inches respectively.

Am I happy?

You damn betcha!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 20:29:10 (ZULU)

Thanks bro,

BKS

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 20:31:48 (ZULU)

Thanks..

Kevin that 6.5 x 284 fag mag won't be able to carry it's own weight against it's big brother the 300wm with Vias brake attached.   I hope you bring good ear plugs and a dust mask to the ASC 2 match.  Just in case you have to snuggle next to me.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 21:04:59 (ZULU)

LeMay OUT

LeMay <lemayj@michigan.gov>
MI, - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 21:13:04 (ZULU)

Bring it on...........

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 21:39:33 (ZULU)

      Rock stars, movie stars, "famous celebrities", hate mongers and race baiters, flaming faggots,  mean-bitch bull dykes, serial killers, sex offenders, and raging pedophiles all have at least one thing in common. To see their names in the news, or up in lights, or to be mentioned hourly on the radio and tv.

      Publicity is great, free publicity is priceless! They will do and say anything that will draw public attention. I figure that if everyone just ignores them they'll go on to commit other despicable acts for the attention, such as self-sodomy. That's not to say that I wouldn't beat them senseless if I were ever to be in proximity.

      Boycott them. If you see their names in print, don't buy it. If you see them on tv, switch channels, if you hear them on the radio, you're listening to the wrong station. Let the station execs know it, tell their sponsors that you'll not be purchasing their product in the future. Remember what Rosie did to K-Mart!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 21:50:00 (ZULU)

GUYS: I caught up with my cases and read back over the roster closely.

Ref: HS STOCKS - Janet told me before she left that except for the early PSS stocks, all HS precison stocks made for Remington had a full length bedding block, swivel to swivel.

Remington went to the Bell and Carlson in an attempt to save money for a year or two and it bit 'em on the ass so they switched back to HS. The only way to tell the two apart other than not seeing metal under the studs, is a stamp on the bottom of the bedding block.

I'll dig around for the email outlining all that stuff, got rid of it just the other day. Maybe I saved it somewhere ...        

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 21:52:49 (ZULU)

I edited my previous post assuming that the web site you posted is itself correct. I certainly wouldn't want to misquote a celebrity. They live on a higher plane you know ;))

--

Speaking of celebrities speaking out against the war, it appears at least some of them are getting back the same stuff they've been dishing out. It's about time.

http://www.hollywoodhalfwits.com

--

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 22:04:03 (ZULU)

Do you remember the first competition you went to at Storm... where the UKD shooting scores were disqual'ed because the second set of shooters were fogged out?

TonyY shot the first string with a 300 mag.  He seems to be a pretty fair shot with that rifle... you might want to research his score.

I need to take you both out drinking the night before... my 36 yr old liver might give me the edge if we go shot for shot...<grin>

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 22:04:53 (ZULU)

Good stuff starts this weekend!

Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 22:20:51 (ZULU)

George Gardner, we spoke on the phone last week about them. You might find this interesting.

Spoke to the guy building my Rifle (M700 .300 SAUM AWR). They do indeed make all of the barrels used in the custom shop right there in the shop. They are all made from full length bar stock, cut drilled, rifled, heat treated (2 times), reamed, etc.

None of that hammer forged production line junk!

They used to buy Mike Rock barrels (which he really liked) and others.

I hope his are as good, I'll report how mine is when I get it next month.

FYI,

Matt

matt l <Lfootmatt@yahoo.com>
AZ, - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 00:49:57 (ZULU)

John and I are anxious to get out there and start setting things up and shooting it, but the snow is still too deep.  More planning this weekend and maybe a trip to the mountain if the big melt continues.

See you guys in May.

      Rod

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 00:50:51 (ZULU)

Actually the PSS stocks were one of the first to come with the full length block.  5f and 3f were da first..PST 12's were next.  And yeah, the best way to check if it's BC or HS is to pull the barreled action, check out the stamp.. On the old stocks it would give you the date of manufacture and who made it.  If it's a #7 then it's likely one of mine, unless it's shite.  Then it wasn't me..

the old ones had a bedding block, with two aluminum strips glued to the sides of the block, extensions we called them.  They ran up the sides of the stock up to about 2-3 inches from the swivel stud.  But the swivel was studded into metal as well, as there were swivel nuts molded into the stock..

I need sleep

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 01:11:19 (ZULU)

  I went to the Truth miners web site. I looked around and found an article about the Nigerian money and that the Secret Service is investigating. It is in the real scams section and gives a link to a Secret Service website about the scam they call 4-1-9.

  Thanks John for the Truth Miners link. I saved it.

         LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 02:57:37 (ZULU)

JRMoore

hey....if any of you guys are obedient to big guy upstairs, offer up a few good words for me in the morning.....the  Doc is having me do a brain scan looking for a tumor.......NOT

Thanks

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Somewhere in , Virginia, - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 03:40:41 (ZULU)

.....I called HS Precision about Remington stocks over the years. I spoke with sales mgr. Janette Thompson. Very knowledgeable lady. 605.341.3006. She said for you guys to call if you have questions. Here's the breakdown on the stocks.

The M-24s have always had a full bedding block running from the front sling swivel to 5" past the rear tang screw. A 1 1/4 " metal insert for the rear stud was/is used.

The first few of the old PSS’s (I call them green guns because of the green parkerizing and 24" barrels) had metal inserts front and rear and a five inch bedding block for the action. They also had bedded aluminum that ran up the sides of the bedding block. They later switched to full blocks on the green guns as well and those have been this way for approximately 10 years back.

The newer PSS’s with black 26" barrels have a full length block (front stud to 5" past the rear tang screw) with an insert at the rear stud.

The LTR has a full length block (front stud to 5" past the rear tang screw) with an insert at the rear stud.

The Remington Synthetic Varmints that are OLDER than THREE years have a full length block and rear insert. For the last three years, Remington awarded the contract for the Synthetic Varmint stocks to a company called Bell and Carlson. These stocks had the studs screwed only into the fiberglass. This year, HS got the contract back so newer guns will have the full length block and metal insert again.

The Bell/Carlson stocks have an OVAL stamped inside the stock, on the bedding block itself. The HS Precision stocks have a CIRCLE with a date therein stamped inside the stock, on the bedding block. That's the only way to tell 'em apart.

The Remington Syndero (which is a different rifle from the Synthetic Varmint) has always had a full length block and HS has always had the contract for these rifles. I have heard people call each by the other's name but the Syndero is usually a long action rifle whereas the Varmint is a short action.

The synthetic stocked Winchester Varmints, Laredo, Sharpshooter and Stealth all have full length blocks and metal inserts no matter the age of the rifle.

Janette said a stock was recently returned where both swivel studs had pulled free. She did not know the specifics because it was a Bell and Carlson stock and not an HS. She did say the guy was a cop though.

Bottom line, if you have a wood stocked Remington or a Synthetic stocked Varmint, you may want to pull the action out and look inside just to see what you have. I'd hate to see somebody get hurt or dump a rifle because of a sling swivel stud.

BKS.....

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K Town, WI, US of A - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 04:31:18 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 04:44:20 (ZULU)

Jody, the ruskie sniper rifle looks a bit like a Brunner, ( CZ) has what looks like an AK rear sight mounted on the front part of the reciever, the stock is green wood(but apparently can be had in synthetic) and is a thumbhole and looks a bit like the AICS or the...whats the name of the other one that came out about the same time as the Choate.. damn i can't remember, bet its in the links somewhere. The Bullpup nagant is the OTs-48K, the one i'm on about is the SV 98, and they have a 50 cal called the OSV 96 that looks a bit like a WW2 anti tank rifle. The basis for the sniper rifle is apparently sold here by Frankonia as a target rifle called the Record. have a look at this link   http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv-98.html

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 06:56:51 (ZULU)

We're prayin for ya at my house. Take care.

Kevin,

I'm impressed! Can I have the winning ticket for the barrel this year?

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 11:12:56 (ZULU)

Best wishes for favorable results man.  Hope tests come back neg....

Ya'll wanna humble them 300WM's and fagmags?  Drop the targets to 400 yards and make them steep angle shots :))  My Edge??? Oooops,, there it goes ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 14:12:24 (ZULU)

I cannot say for sure that the truthminers site doesn't have it's own agenda.  Just wanted to throw another perspective out there on the Cindy Williams story.  I don't want anyone to get the impression that I'm sticking up for the Hollywood types...but we wanna be sure someone is the enemy before we burn them at the stake.  

JB

John Bechtell <ajbechtell@yahoo.com>
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 14:31:03 (ZULU)

I was reading an old regimental magazine of the Argyll and Southerland Highlanders the other day, an article in there makes refernce to a young Armourer with the knickname, Pepe la Pue, i never could figure out why i got that name, it was either the stink or the casing or pussy (cats), aint sure which.

Brian, yep I've seen the Unique, interesting piece of kit, fairly scimilar to the SWS 2000, but IMHO the SWS 2000 shows much more inovation, can't wait to get my hands on one.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 14:55:06 (ZULU)

We're doin' our best for ya here in Mizzry.

Keep the faith.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The frosty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 15:27:35 (ZULU)

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 17:33:25 (ZULU)

Prayin' for the best for you.

Spud

dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
merced, KA, usa - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 17:46:57 (ZULU)

http://www.milspecgear.com/french.html

BTW, how do you do that 'click on my name" thing?

jc

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 17:59:34 (ZULU)

All is well here in the old dominion.  I do get a chance to pop in and say hello from time to time.

I've sold two of the B&L Tacticals, I have one maybe two left. Also - I have four 6.5x20x50 Leupolds listed on the emporium...

I guess I have turned from a scope slut into a scope pimp - LOL...

take care out there...

GodBless...

Ken

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesvill, VA, USofA - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 18:06:43 (ZULU)

>>LOS ANGELES -- The specter of the Hollywood Blacklist era came to light again Monday when the Screen Actors Guild warned the entertainment industry that it better not punish people who speak out against war with Iraq.

"It is the fundamental right of citizens to express their support or their fears and concerns," the SAG statement read.

>>

jared <jared@mc2studios.com>
san antonio, tx, usa - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 18:39:39 (ZULU)

Don't phone HS and ask for Janet.  She no workie there no more..

I can't remember what year HS took the Sendero contract, but both the long action and short action stocks weren't of the full length block til relatively recent times.  I remember working on the Remington contracts, and remember glueing the extensions to the blocks vividly.  When I first started there way back when, that was my job, cleaning molds and prepping blocks.  I think just about everything, minus a few of the competition stocks, has the full length block now.  If the stock was laminated properly, all the fiberglass kevlar and carbon fiber in the right place and not just foam between the swivel nut and the paint, it wouldn't be impossible to rip them out, but it'd take some doin.. I have 4 of the old style stocks, and if I was the one laying the glass I'd have another 4 of 'em..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 18:52:08 (ZULU)

How did things go with the doctor?? Prayers have been sent, more will follow. As for the 6BR I say bring it!! I'm still "stuck" with a "lowly" 308 [snicker snicker...evil grin].

As for muzzle brakes you haven't lived until you have shot a comp next to the Undude with his "extra special super hi tech EDM cut folige shaking flash supressor". Remember that Mike??

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 20:52:08 (ZULU)

Got the computer rigged for posting again....

News and film at 11:00

Gooch out

gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 22:50:36 (ZULU)

  Okay, how about we call you pig killer? Or we'll just call you Pete until you give us something else to call you.

Iraq;

  Someone ask my opinion the other day. I think they were doing a college project, not real sure. Anyway, I was asked if I thought the war against Iraq was justified. I said "Would you wait for a rattlesnake to bite you?" The girl kinda chuckled.

  LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 00:30:52 (ZULU)

http://www.charliedaniels.com/soapbox/03/242.html

Edited to add link...  DUH!

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 02:31:49 (ZULU)

Hooyah USA

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, March 7, 2003, at 02:58:44 (ZULU)

Larry,

Personally, I think that's too good NOT to post. I'm in a celebrity bashing mood. Go ahead and post it.

--

Kudos to Bush for standing his ground. PAX AMERICANA

--

Rifle question. (imagine that)

Does anybody have any range and load development experience with the Armalite AR30 in the .338 Lapooie caliber? Load data is certainly lacking for this cartridge. Where would be the best source for this info? Also, opinions on this rifle?

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 03:56:05 (ZULU)

THANKS!

I was there once, and I know what a sacrifice it is. It can be fun, and it can be an adventure, but it is always work, hard work, work that can even get you killed, but we Americans always appreciate your sacrifice.

P.S. Anyone helping out this weekend at the Colorado Rifle Club for the Boy Scout merit badge shoot? I am, just thought I might get to know someone else from around here.

Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
Denver, you know where, - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 04:14:49 (ZULU)

Glad to see finaly a politician who has the balls to to stick to his guns, well done Mr Bush.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 07:06:11 (ZULU)

Gerhard Schroeder is one thing.  But allowing Joschka Fischer anywhere near the levers of power is an even bigger mistake, IMHO.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 08:43:00 (ZULU)

I've got the Lapua load book, if ya can't find anything else. I'm almost positive the 338 is in there.

edit: Mr. Bullet (HA) you have mail. N/A

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 11:36:18 (ZULU)

I've had an interesting week. On Monday my son witnessed a shooting at his elementary school. A motorcycle cop made a traffic stop in front of the school and the guy gets out of his Jeep and shoots the officer in the ankle. The guy is suspected of having just robbed a bank which was unknown by the officer. Anyway it was a reminder to my family of the sacrifice all of you on the front-line are making on behalf of the rest of us. Thank you.

Yesterday I had another great experience. I have a good friend, kind of a father figure in my life. He served in Vietnam with the Marine Corp. during 68-69. I could tell for years that there was a great deal of shame connected with his serving. Over time (10 years) though I've been purposely trying to encourage him to open up and receive from those of us who are grateful for his service. Well, to make a long story short. I was able to help him put together a plaque with all his medals and ribbons. And he invited me into his house to show me what he had dome.

He actually hung all his photos, memorabilia and medals on one of his walls. It was very crude looking, but one of the best sights I had ever seen. Then he said with tears in his eyes "before I met you I was shamed into believing that what I had done was honorless. You've restored my sense of pride. And I'm glad I did what I did for my country."

I know it brought healing to my friend, but it was really one of the best moments of my life. I never had the privilege to serve (screwed up back), but I feel as though I scored one for the Corp. today. What an honor!!!

Sorry for the bandwidth. It was just a good day. To all of you who have served and are serving Thank You.

John Levens

BTW to those who would try to put that kind of crap on our troops again. Never again! And you can read into that what you want.

John Levens <SirSaxII@aol.com>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 15:02:27 (ZULU)

Our team is looking for the best way to carry a sidearm while conducting our sniper/observer mission.  We all have hi-speed, hi-drag Safariland kydex thigh holsters for our Glocksters, but have found that when high/low-crawling that they promptly spin around to the front of the leg and become a miniature earth mover.

Criteria are:

1.  Secure the weapon on our persons

2.  Provide for relatively quick presentation

3.  Be flexible enough to allow wear of g-suits, etc.

What do y'all (I'm not from the South, but I live in Southern Michigan) use?  We were considering Bianchi UM92 style holsters with the flap to protect the weapon, but still keep it out where we can get at it.

We have a small part-time team, as I'm sure many of you do, and we are responsible for covering our own 6's.  Ability to get at a secondary weapon is pretty important.  We are also looking at getting an FN P90 to stick in a dragbag pocket for short/medium range encounters.  Suppressed w/ sub-sonic ammo, it would also be a great tool for eliminating pesky critters while on the stalk or at the FFP.

Thanks in advance.

Lance Johnston <sgtlmj@yahoo.com>
Hillsdale, MI, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 15:29:52 (ZULU)

I've used the "Jackass" "Miami Vice" style shoulder rig under my G-suit to keep the weapon and magazines clear of snags and getting dirty.  However it is a little slow on the "presentation".

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 15:40:10 (ZULU)

ON pistols on stalk. Its a pain in the butt. Have you tried getting a belt holster and putting it to the rear over the butt cheek? I have run a left hand thigh holster that way a few times. I find getting it to my weakside I dont crawl on it as much.

I ahve also use the inside of a vest. A pouch sewn inside my G Suit and frankly I gave up on quick get outs and just leave it inside my G suit, padded so it does not hurt me when my old body is prone.

Mr. Moore, I prayed for you and hope all is well. Please tell us when you know.

Peter, had to put some French on back burner for slings. the Candian Spe Opps guys needed a rush order and well the French had no plans to use the slings anyway. Ricks Canadian Counter Parts have been taken care of. My back hurts from sewing everyday for last two weeks and all thats waiting now is UPS(Shipped yesterday) to get them there. Just doing my part create a need for more and more virgins in Allah Land.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 16:04:31 (ZULU)

My friend just picked up one of the AR-30s in .338LM. I haven't seen it yet but he says he likes the feel of it(he hasn't shot it yet). He ordered it more than a year and a half ago and it just got in. If you're looking for loads the new Sierra manual, #5, has the .338LM in it. My friend plans on shooting the 300 Matchkings. He didn't buy the manual but looked at one in the local shop and wrote down the loads he wanted to try. I'll see if I can get what he wrote down and post it. Sorry I couldn't help more for actual used loads but here is some info from:

Hodgdon www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/338lapuamag.htm

Accurate Reloading www.accuratereloading.com/338lmag.html

Reloader Nest www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=140

Hopefully that will help you get started.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, March 7, 2003, at 16:13:01 (ZULU)

        You made a valid point about the fact that there are folks in Germany (I'm not so sure about France) who do not agree with the actions of their elected government(s), and should not be punished for the actions their other countrymen.

        But here's the rub. These people have allowed those in power to steer their entire country into a direction that is against the interests of the US, and of the majority of the free world. Perhaps they didn't know or care enough to defeat this evil but therein lies a parallel to the events in Germany in 1933 and those in France during the Vichy government. The German citizenship was promised bread and jobs, and the French bent over and spread their cheeks to save their precious Paris (among other things). Needless to say, Russia has always been our enemy, even while playing ally during WWII.

       If this war in Iraq does take place we will all find out exactly why Germany, France, and Russia are doing their best to impede it. We will find missle technology, NBC facilities, and armaments among other things banned by the Gulf War Treaty that have been sold to Iraq by these three "peace-loving" nations. We will no doubt uncover secret treaties that trade Security Council votes for oil. If I am correct, an agreement where Iraq uses its influence to deter terrorist attacks upon these three European countries in exchange for a Security Council veto might also be uncovered.

       This alone should cause the downfall of the United Nations (at least as a relevent organization) and cause the US to reexamine its relationship with several other countries once thought of as friends.Most of the population of the US have not forgotten the Cold War, and we certainly will never forget our young men who were maimed or died on European soil to save some people (and countries) who apparently were not worth saving! Deep-seated fear and hatred of Russia exists here, as it always has existed, and now these feelings are being directed towards France and Germany. If the citizens of these countries truly are in opposition to their left-wing socialist leadership let them show it now! Peacefully and politically to be sure, but SHOW US SOMETHING, damnit! Otherwise we shall be forced to let history do the talking, and consider the French as rank cowards with egos as big as DeGaulle's nose, and consider the German population as more concerned with monetary gain and their pathetic attempt to be the leaders of Europe than paying back a war debt that, out of our regard for their survival, was never collected.

That is all,

            ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 16:20:35 (ZULU)

Back when the Shuttle exploded I mentioned that it would be terrible if they suspected a problem and didn't address it.  Looks like that indeed happened.  Furthermore, the evidence is growing that many of the Shuttles critical systems are not being maintained properly because of contractors not doing the required work.  Very sad.  I want the old NASA of the 60's back, with the Can Do Never Say Die attitude of Apollo 13.  We have seen enough of the other NASA.

Mr Moore -- Prayers sent......Get well soon

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 16:42:02 (ZULU)

If you can stand the pulling it off a piece of duct tape accross the holster greatly aids the durability of the set up. Just jerk the tape off as fast as you can rather than slowly tear it off.

John; as Martha might say, "That's a good thing!" It's hard to believe there might be those who think Nam was some kind of evil war.

You did a REALLY good thing.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, March 7, 2003, at 16:48:14 (ZULU)

The UN is a farce and always has been, it benefits countries in continents who are always trying to kill each other with wars and civil wars and is a rip off, if they chose to behave like savages instead of working to rais thier countries out of the damn iron age, then screw em, why should we help. We here can't forget the cold war, many of us wish it was still on, then atleast we wouldn't be swamped with all these damn immigrants from behind the former iron curtain.

If the US needs to look at its relationships with other countries, and i fully agree that it should, as time and time again is the friend of today the enemy of tomorow, and we brits and you yanks never seem to learn that.. then the relationships with Israel needs a damn good looking at. If you could ask the Armed forces of germany rather than the politicians, then i figure you'd find some Flecktarn uniforms and Leopard tanks just gagging to go over the berm into Iraq.

Me, i'll just drink me Warsteiner beer, eat my schnitzel, spread the word quietly to all i can, and when i see a couple of US servicemen in a bar, I'll go over and say thanks and buy em a beer.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 17:47:21 (ZULU)

Blood pressure was a bit low this morning, so I decided to watch the French Foreign Minister address the UN Security Council.

THAT worked, brought it up nicely.

Funny how "war is never the way, it will result in untold suffering, etc., etc....." in this case, but it seems to me that French attitude towards "American Aggression" was a bit different in June 1944.

These guys don't know the difference between s**t and ShineOla.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 18:08:15 (ZULU)

I promise that before I boycott a German product, I will first take a  look at their public advertising and website.  If they publicly support the pro-active stand the US has taken, at IMMENSE cost to the American taxpayer and risk to our young soldiers, then I will not boycott...

If I see no mention of an opinion, I will take it that they are playing the middle and will boycott with vigor... sure hope dealing with the devil turns out to be disaster for Germany's economy...In the end, an economic 'train-wreck' in the fatherland might allow responsible, pro-active leadership to emerge from the reactive stupidity of today. You will need good leadership to defend the southern borders from the terrorists that will soon own France.

Another offer... I will trade you ten parent subsidized, lazy ass, American by birth-right only, liberal college students for every one hard working conservative German you ship our way.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, March 7, 2003, at 18:42:53 (ZULU)

 Das french needed those slings for lanyards to hoist the sheets.  Now how they gunna surrender?

Gents,

the debate on reflex sights turned into proud ownership of the aimpoint M2.  The ARD is back-ordered though.  I imagine the M2s will be sold out shortly too.  But I "got mine" as we love to say.  I also recieved the all-mount kit.  The extension rail for carrying handles does not impress me.  I'll trade some dollars and that POS for the ARMS version.  Two mounting points sound betterer than one.  

Admin sucks.  Why does every petty office need 9 copies of orders? Just let me move on already....

My email will work thru tax day.  After that, standby until I get back online sometime down the road...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, March 7, 2003, at 19:13:57 (ZULU)

Yep, the Frog got my ire up too.  If you had seen James Straw (the UK spokesman or whatever to the UN) perform a brutal diplomatic body-slam on him earlier, it kinda explains his (da Frog)whining and bellyachin'...he was plum humiliated (as he should be).  In fact Straw got the applause this time and Frenchy got none.

Later,

Rich

RichS. <rs1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 19:14:10 (ZULU)

     I guess that just like we don't ever get the whole truth about what goes on in other countries you guys are not getting all of the facts about conditions here.

     Yes, there were many pro- Vietnam War demonstrations here. Anybody remember the "Hardhats"? Many violent confrontations between them and the Hippies in places like NYC, Chicago, and Detroit to name a few. The mass media conveniently forgets all of that to make it appear as if 100% of our population was against that war. In truth, it was mainly students, movie and rock stars, left-wing clergy and politicians, but they were overportrayed as a vast majority. The honest truth is that most young people attended those anti-war rallies to smoke dope and get laid! I should know, I was there. The only ones who really were protesting the war were the few that ran around wearing old od fatigue jackets waving copies of Chairman Mao's little red book and calling each other Comrade! Everyone else who's mind wasn't already burned out by drugs could give a shit less about the politics.

    Today, the accounts of these mass rallies against the war with Iraq are again being grossly exagerated by the press. Conflict sells! NYC has a population of over eight million people, and in yesterdays much publiciced "Mass student walkout" all of several hundred young people actually left class and demonstrated. And most of them only because their left wing teachers urged them to do it, and did not punish them for unexcused abscenses.

     I live in a valley on the western slope of the Rocky Mountains, about twenty miles from a population center of about one hundred thousand. We get a group of socialists, homosexuals, and other people who live to protest anything, that demonstrate in front of the County courthouse every Friday at noon. I think that their maximun number has been as much as one dozen. All the while the normal residents of this area drive by in their pickups and SUV's flipping them off , mooning them, and shouting curses at the top of their lungs. I'll bet that you would find that this is going on all over the country, only it's left unreported so the media can deceive the outside world.

     Hans and Fritz have their heads stuck up their asses! They cannot afford to ignore what is going on. They got away with it during the Nazis rule, but to many of us ignoring the situation is no different than aiding and abetting it! I remember thirty or so years ago when the dollar was very low compared to the deutschmark we were inundated by German tourists who could see the "Wild West" as cheaply as they could vacation in Spain. And when one of these tourists were asked where they were from most all replied "VE ARE SVISS". I'd rather take an ass-kicking than renounce my nationality! It is too bad that the "good" Germans are allowing themselves to be painted by the broad brush that paints their countrymen.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 19:19:35 (ZULU)

Alan,

I understand what you're saying, and I'm just as pissed at the French, Germans, and Russians as you are.  But like Pete said, you can't blame the whole populace of these countries (well, maybe the French:o).  I mean, are we to blame for the Clinton's?  Being from upstate NY, am I to blame for Hillary and Chuckie Schumer?   Rest assured that these countries will get their just dues.  The people in these countries that support these administrations are the same people that support socialism.  As these people keep demanding more and more social benefits from their government, they keep raising the price of their countries products.  Eventually they will be noncompetitive in the world market and their economy will go in the $hitter.  It's starting to happen already in Germany.  What goes around comes around.  Just MHO.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 19:47:37 (ZULU)

    I agree with what you're saying and respect your opinion. If I were to give a wise-ass answer to your question I would say yes, you people upstate just didn't work hard enough to keep Hilary and Chuckie out of office! But I know better than that, besides a New York conservative Republican equals a liberal Democrat in the real world;-)

    I just heard on the radio that the latest public opinion poll shows that 71% of the German public considers the US "war mongers and imperialists". If that's true than screw every last one of them including those that agree with us but don't have the stones to stand up for themselves. "Zis vay to de showers - you vill not need towels".

    As far as Clinton is concerned I hold myself and all others like me responsible for his Presidency! Why? Because I, like many other gullible fools voted for Ross Perot the first time around, after seeing G.H.W.Bush act like it didn't matter to him if he was elected or not. I think that he foolishly wasted the 90+% rating that he earned from the Gulf War and lost his office in less than a year. As for those who voted for Clinton, I will forever hold them responsible for what he did to this nation in eight years.

    We in the US have the advantage in that even though we had the worst President in history for eight years, there were enough of us who fought hard enough to keep him from turning the US into a Socialist State. This obviously is not the case in Germany! I only hope that after their economy collapses we remember their unwillingness to come to our aid and repay them in kind. Until then no German products for me! Let the bastards eat Iraqi oil, and cook their f***in sausages in it too.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, March 7, 2003, at 23:57:50 (ZULU)

So far we have prevailed in this War through the strength of our economy.  I would even go so far as to speculate a pre 911 connection between the EURO Whennies and Islamic Terroist to attack the United States.  It's no accident that Europe has been Terrorism free for years.  All Bin Laden can talk about is down with the west and western economy.  What he means here is the Dollar economy, not that of Europe.  

What we are witnessing is the Last Gasp battle for the Economy of the world,  possibly for the next Millenium. This battle will last many years but just as Normandy was the turning point of WWII, I believe this War with Iraq is that point in this fight. Nothing could be a bigger nightmare for world socialist than a free world, with the economic and legal principles of the United States.  

IN this fight we must prevail, or we risk an age of Darkness and anarchy, the likes of which the world had never known.

Bye

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 00:06:01 (ZULU)

Gents,

Say a prayer for a young "Army Wife" tonight.  This is her first evening as a widow...and we're doing our best to help her through.  Casualty assistance duties are tough...and not wanted.  But by God, if it was my wife sitting there, I'd expect someone would be there for her too.  We are, at this moment, flying a chaplain of her faith in from Ft Knox.  

Damn, damn, damn...this is the side of war that we often overlook.  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 01:43:26 (ZULU)

I haven't seen any futher testing results posted on the subject but had a thought about why POI was, I believe, low and right.  With the temperature down low could powder ignition and burn have been reduced to the point of lower velocity and setting up of different harmonics in the barrel/receiver so the bullets were in effect pointed at the new POI?

Are there any others out there that have noticed the same sort of behavier from their sticks?  Being a mostly fair weather shooter I haven't run across this yet.

Inquiring minds what to know...

P.S. - I what to clarify fair weather shooter status.  I don't shoot as much in the cold but have been known to wear heavy HP shooting gear (t-shirt, long sleeve sweat shirt, elbow pads and heavy shooting jacket) in 100+ degree summer sun just to crank off a few rounds at 600 yards.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 01:43:38 (ZULU)

As those of you who have been in the position of having to perform this duty know it is never easy.  But what came to mind when I read your post Joe was the scenes from "We Were Soldiers."  I sure hope that our military learned from earlier events and are able to better handle the task.

To get a letter from Uncle Sam stating greating from you local draft board is one thing but not the way to let family members know that they have just lost a loved one who was serving his or her Country.

From someone who was brought up with religion as a child, but is unsure of it as an adult, I will still say a prayer for any who are suffering in this way in the hope that someone with the power is listening and will answer our prayers to lessen their pain and sorrow.  I also think that even though we may not believe in a higher power that we should at least have the compasion of doing what we can for those who are having to live through the pain and suffering caused by their loss.

Any action taken to secure and ensure the peace and freedom for anyone benefits us all; and may the actions of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in that endeavor never be forgotten.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 02:33:29 (ZULU)

      That lady will be mentioned in my prayers tonight.

Guys,

      I'm no religous freak or Bible thumper but just remember the old saying about atheists and foxholes!

New Rifle,

         Since I didn't go to the Shot Show this may be old news to some of you guys. Olympic Arms (Oly) have announced a new AR-15 style rifle named the PCR-8. It looks like it's a Picatinny flattop with full float tube and Picatinny gas block. Chambering? How about the new .223WSSM and .243WSSM cartridges? I'm not at all sure about the .223, sounds like a REAL barrel burner to me, but my thoughts are racing towards a .243WSSM with a 107gr. SMK! Sounds like 6mm PPC country.

        Can anyone out there provide me with some details on this rifle, or direct me to a source? Just when you think that you've bought enough rifles for a while.................................

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 05:02:26 (ZULU)

Consider it done and one for you as well.  

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 05:12:42 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 06:49:17 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 07:14:46 (ZULU)

Medic Jim, mate you got yer self a deal, i just need to get a boat rented,change her name to the Mayflower, get my guns loaded onboard, and enough beer for the voyage. then Petes Pilgrims will be on thier way across the pond. you can air drop the socialist hippies in to replace us, parachute not required.

Alan, i agree with a lot you said, and as far as the froggies go, i'll go along with it, but some of these krauts are ok, they have just had to live under the enforced shame of WW2 and had peace and pacifism hammered into them,What this country needs is another Adolf, but one who is sane and doesn't have world domination ideas, we need a leader that can motivate, inspire and actualy lead, instead of just spout bull and rip us off.

About all the gun/scope shooting scene people are on the right track.

I think that some good will come out of this, i think that socialism in Europe is going to take a kick in the ass soon and it bloody well needs to, Blair surprises me how right wing he is bieng for a leftie, just imagine if we had Maggy still,

Id love to sit down and discuss all this with all you guys over a beer or three, i'll be doing that with JR and Jon B next weekend and i'm looking forward to that.

Undude, the froggies need the slings so they don't drop thier guns on thier toes whilst surrendering, the slings are cheaper than steel toecap boots.

Well its about 3 weeks to the start of the hunting season, so its time i got my guns sorted and off to the range , think i'm having withdrawal symptoms.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 07:46:30 (ZULU)

I don't think France, Jerry, Russia are too worried about us finding thier materiel, cuz undoubtedly our stuff is there as well.  Pete, you remember the supergun project?  ha..Just needed that last shipment eh..

France is being French.  Ask Pete and Jon about the BSE scare, when Europe liften ze ban on british beef, france said 'no, we don wan ze british bif'.  They were being French.  But I am starting to think that this is a play of the EEC, you know, Hitler's original plan, and is a fight for might in the global political arena.  They DID not have anything to do with 9/11, don't make me gag on that reference.  The Europeans lost just as much as we did there dudes..The EEC wants to be heavyweights for sure, showing they can't be pushed around, which is why I applaud POTUS for throwing the line 'show me your cards'.  Texas Hold 'em.  Double the blinds, table stakes.  We've had the cards all along.  I think Russia is more of, what are you going to give us.  Or, they have key operatives in the area and don't want to lose that intelligence.  I don't know, won't even pretend to know.

If you boys are going to boycott sausages and sauerkraut, well, remember not to drive thru Wisconsin.  Me, I ain't doin nothin of the sort, like Pete I enjoy my pint of Warsteiner, and I know the krauts are a decent lot.  The EEC is led by effite arseholes, elitist socialist pig-dogs.  But the people of those countries have basically the same values we hold true, where do you think we got 'em?  I can't form an opinion on the concensus of Germany until I see it first hand, which will be next week.  And I can almost bet I'll have never met a better bunch of people..  It's the politicians and the media spinning their views in their favor that may or may not be shaping these people's thoughts on America.  Even here, until some of the people met an American, me, they had a different vision of what America was all about.  Now, when I walk into the Croon, it's "when are WE going to get rid of Saddam, mate?"  Muckletoon is pro-USA for the most part..

Pete, I think the big to-do anti war march in London was nothing more than a bunch of people looking for parking places before the congestion charges kicked in that week..  and a free rock concert, who wouldn't show up for that..I heard a 'poll' that 80% of Britain is against the war.  Where are these people?  I've not seen this.  Which is why when I hear 'poll', you can stick it where the sun don't shine.  Polls mean shite.  

I have a different plan than a boycott.  I'm going to steal all their women.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 08:40:08 (ZULU)

Vietnam War..it wasn't just the hippies, dudes.  WWII and Korea vets as well, a lot of them would not acknowledge that these troops were involved in battle, that all Viet vets were a bunch of gutless drugged up pussies who weren't worth their time.  And that was pretty tough on dad, you look for support from your own, and in his own Legion he was being spat on, psychologically.  So, he came back thinking he did well for his country, then finds out all he did was smoke pot and f'up.  Does a lot of good to the psyche there.  So he basically battled his depression alone.  I had and still have a severe hatred of some of the WWII vets because of this, moreso than the hippies, always hate hippies, but when some of the old farts passed away, I shed no tears..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 09:02:09 (ZULU)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 09:12:35 (ZULU)

I'm not going to pretend to know another nation's thoughts and attitudes.  I would only be relying in the most part on stereotypical impressions portrayed by the media.  A media which has it's own agendas (well, I believe what they say about the French :-)). I heard the week before last that some poll in the UK said 80 summat% of Brits are against a war with Iraq.  I heard this week 75% of Brits are for a war with Iraq!!!  Has the population suddenly done an incredilble u-turn? I doubt it.  Like JR said polls are bollocks, when was YOUR opinion last polled?  Mine never has been.

Medic Jim, you say you will continue to support European products if they visibly annouce their support for the war, well you aint going to see it.  That is not our way (least not the Brit way).  We don't go in for 'a whoopin, an a hollarin', and shouting about 'kicking ass'.  Those that DO support you are going to be the most likely to say the least.  The ones that make the noise will be the antis.  So if you see a product that says nothing about the war your likely to be on the right track.  It may not be the way it should be, God knows things could have been different if the conservative majority got off their arses and said something once in a while (I might still have been shooting my Para Ordnace P14), but it aint going to happen.

Pete, havent You done enough thieving lately ;-)

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 12:09:20 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 12:28:14 (ZULU)

As for the gaging, get started( LOL......LOL)  As Peter pointed out, Europe has had terrorism, and some damn bloody events.  But in the past 15 years they have been pretty much free from attacks, atleast that I can remember or research.  We have had PAN AM 109,  TWA 800, The Egypt air crash, US World Trade Center One, foiled Airline Attacks from the Philipines cell, The African Embasy bombings, The Cole Bombings, and the 911 attacks.  Even the Oklahoma City Bombing, while domestic in execution, has been tied to overseas money and Bin Ladens network and Iraqi intellegence service. ( World Net Daily has some excellent material on these events). To my knowlege Europe has not had these kind of attacks.  I think it's silly to boycott things from a particular country, becasue it doesn't work.  Boycotting companies is a different matter. From other sources, mainly economic, that show the connection i described.

If you can, bring Peter back with you when you are done with your Scotish adventure, We can use him here.

Take care

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 12:49:52 (ZULU)

Only Brit i've talked to that wasn't convinced about getting into Saddams back yard is my Dad, which surprised me when he said it, but he figures it should have been done 12 years ago, and i figure his doubts come from past experiences wearing a uniform, he isn't against it and he isn't for it, just not convinced eitherway and seen to many good men get fucked up because politicians got thier facts wrong.

You got yer doe totals up yet? 3 weeks and your back at the bucks..

don't forget the letter headed paper.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 12:58:46 (ZULU)

Now I have a question: I have been wanting to start sending care packages to our troops but don't know where to start. Can someone steer me in the right direction as to 1) what address you send them to 2) How big they can be 3) Does the USPS give you a break on postage when you send packages to the troops. I have heard about people sending packages to "any soldier" and I guess they just go anywhere in the world.

Joe, since you post so often on this board and seem like a great guy to me, someone who I would definately go down the river with, would it be possible to send packages to you to pass out to your guys as needed?

Now since I know I'll be flooded with all the info on how to send stuff to the troops, I know there are alot of current an ex military guys and maybe gals here, what kinds of things are most needed or wanted? I have lots of magazines about shooting, hunting, and fishing I could send. Maybe hard candy, toothpaste, chapstick, toilet paper, I don't have a clue what you guys like to get the most. Can we maybe start a list of the most popular things you got or would have liked to get when you were away from home.

Thanks in advance for all the help, Tony Burkes  

Tony Burkes <tburkes@sbcglobal.net>
Alvin, Texas, USA - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 13:38:53 (ZULU)

Caliber choice question.  

I'm looking to build a long range 'chuck gun.  where i hunt i have the opportunity to safely shoot 7-800 yards, across an open field, and sometimes longer (ridge to ridge).  I'm pretty much set on a .30 cal, as they carry more energy downrange (I whitetail hunt in the same area).  I'm not a recoil freak, so I've pretty much dropped the 300 win mag, and 300 rem ultra mag.  I've pretty much settled down to a .308, or .300 WSM.  I read the archive section on 308 vs 30-06, which says the 308 is the way to go, but that was written before the 300 wsm came out.

any suggestions?

thanks in advance.

rob

praying for the safety of our troops from PA.

rob ratvasky <rratvask@tricountyi.net>
central, pa, usa - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 14:20:22 (ZULU)

Unlike Mr. Beardsley however (smiling here Jon), I usually like to do that very thing a whoopin' and a hollerin' and a yellin' about kicking ass.

Some folks just need a good ass whippin' and Saadam is way overdue.

That's all I have to say about that ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 14:29:36 (ZULU)

We Brits don't do a whoopin and a hollerin, we just kick ass. then steal all the chicks n drink all the beer.or we steal all the chicks and the beer and end up having to kick ass.

Rob, i'm an 06 fan, i'd choose it over the 308, but i figure most wouldn't, i've shot a shed full of magpies with my 06, thats about as near to varminting as we get, a bunch of head shot rabbits too. Then a bunch of deer and some pigs. What about a 25-06, a 270?  might as well get a fag mag  i suppose.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 14:48:11 (ZULU)

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 15:18:19 (ZULU)

Everything I have is a "sporter barrel".  i'm looking to jump to a heavy barrel gun for the long stuff.  

Guns are like Martin Guitars and kids - you can never have too many, and they're all individuals....

rob ratvasky <rratvask@tricountyi.net>
central, PA, United States of America - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 16:18:02 (ZULU)

http://www.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/ussr/win06t1.jpg

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 16:22:07 (ZULU)

     Who the hell considers the Brits as Europeans anyway???

JR,

     Boycott sausage? Nah! All of our sausage comes from Wisconsin. I don't need no German beer. In this neck of the woods Dos Equis and Corona are the imports of choice. I will boycott German imported goods because although I can't do much to influence their thinking, I'll do everything I can to sabotage their economy! By the time this is over I hope to see them using rolls of euros from the dispensors in the their shitters.

Pete,

     There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you're correct in claiming that there are some good people in the Fatherland. There were some fine people there thirty years ago when I last visited;-) However eight years of dealing with the upper level management of Porsche - AUDI - Volkswagen has only served to make me wonder just how many good Germans are left. I can tell you this - 'good Germans' were the last thing on the minds of the aircrews who firebombed Dresden. I do not dislike all Germans, only the ones who put the current scheisskopf in power, and those who are not Socialists but have not raised a finger to stop them.

Brits,

     As to yellin' screamin' and kickin' ass - please excuse us uncouth colonials for our forward behavior. The lack of a monarchy on this side of the pond has turned us into a very ill mannered lot. You see, we don't bow, scrape, curtsey, or kneel to anyone. Perhaps that's part of whatever's wrong with the Germans today. After all, it hasn't been that long, in a historical sense, that they were ruled by the Kaiser. Please understand that I'm not at all anti-British. My sainted mother was born there! But my dad was a Cajun, with Canuck roots dating back to 1692, he,he,he! Just don't make the mistake of inviting large numbers of our troops to England. Remrmber what happened during WWII. NOBODY can steal pussy like a YANK:-))

rob,

    You want commonality and flexibility - choose the .308. Sacrifice some of that to gain about 100fps MV and you'll have the .30-'06, nothing wrong with that. You don't want .300WM recoil? Stay away from the .300WSM, 'cause if its ballistics approximate those of the .300WM, its recoil surely will also. As 'lito said, you don't get something for nothing in this game!

ALAN  

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 17:08:42 (ZULU)

Alan, i happen to notice that most Yanks i bump into are far better mannered than most others i bump into, and yep, who said Brits are europeans anyway? and yeah, they used to say "Yanks, over paid, over sexed and overhere".

Right guys, into town tonight for a leaving party, should be getting shitfaced drunk on all that kraut beer and will be boogieing the night away, I shall do my bit as far as JR's alternative boycott is concerned.

Pete.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 17:43:42 (ZULU)

BKS

BRIAN K. SAIN <BRIANKSAIN@YAHOO.COM>
- Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 17:46:38 (ZULU)

God bless them all.

God Bless their families.

Valhalla will never fill.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 18:08:59 (ZULU)

Alan. And there was I trying to be all Eurofied, but your right we ain't European as such.  And right again, you are uncouth and our Queen would never stand for it.  Good ridence to bad rubbish when we let you oiks keep America I say; what,what! ;-)

Seriously, what I was trying to get across was in reponce to Jim's boycot of any company that doesn't openly support the actions of the US.  It's just not what we would do, and just because a company isn't flag waving etc. doesn't mean they don't support you.  Like Pete says, it is a fair bet that any shooting/military related company will be pro-America, and pro our actions in the Gulf.

And before any of you go all goo eyed for Blair, remember he is a socialist leader, pro-Euro and anti-shooting.  Blair's support for the US has come as a complete suprise to me, and a pleasant one for a change (but no so pleasant for many of his MPs :-) )

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 18:43:10 (ZULU)

Thanks for the .338 Lapooie links. As far as the AR30s, I don't own one yet, but it is on my radar screen ;)) Makes more sense than the AR50...especially since I don't have any 50 cal. loading equip. Anyone out there with range time with the AR30, hit me offline.

--

>>>> you are uncouth and our Queen would never stand for it. <<<<

BKS get's it honest. He's from the land of the uncouth...Texas. We live by the old west creed of... shoot straight, drink hard, ride fast, and never, never, spit in front of the women folk....and oh yeah, we don't take shit off nobody and btw, Remember the Alamo and God Bless the President (another uncouth Texan). ;)))))

Les see, we had a Texan once (little short sawed off kind of guy) that made quite a fuss in Europe during the last hoorah there. What was his name...Murphy I think. Brought home some medals I heard. Made some movies too, I think ;))))

***** just kidding fellas. Keep your hate mail to a minimum ;))******

--  

Badlands Bob or Sarge,

What's the skinny on the SC match? All positions filled?

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 20:07:19 (ZULU)

Guys guys guys stealing women will lead to more trouble for the stealer than its worth,from a farm boys perspective,do the rambling bull thing,smash the fences and improve the gene pool and leave before tshtf.

Regardless of terrorism activity up til now,if this thing aint done right,it wil get real bad everywhere soon.A small quiet country like Aus havin its citizens targetted by slithering gutter scum bodes bad for the rest of the worlds freedom lovers.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 21:34:31 (ZULU)

Add my prayers to the list. Every day I thank God for those of you in the military doing what you do and sacrificing so much for our country and way of life.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 22:59:27 (ZULU)

Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 23:33:51 (ZULU)

Sorta like the way you can get any experimental result you want if you know what results you want before you start.  One of the classics in that game was a Brit PhD who mocked the wierdos by producing a 0.95 correlation (1.0 is perfect) between the sale of oranges and the incidence of violence in Britain.  No cause & effect, just coexisting events.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 00:23:42 (ZULU)

You got mail w/o attachment.

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 02:46:10 (ZULU)

Entries still coming for the match. Slots still available also if you are interested.

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 04:02:15 (ZULU)

Just to repeat what we've said here before. 20% of the American people care enough about freedom to fight for it. The rest love it but wouldn't have the courage to fight. If they'd only get the hell out of the way so the 20 can take care of business.

 I guess I'll put off buying that new Mercedes or Audi... but wait ain't they made in Georgia now?

Lets see. What product am I supposed to boycott? OH yeah, no more French Fries or German Mauser's .. yeah that's it.  

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 04:04:30 (ZULU)

I think most of the good German and French genes left the mainland Europe for the UK and eventually North America years ago.  Whoa nelly!!!  Gooch runs for his bunker!!!

By the way "Gooch" is of Nordic/European origin by way of the UK arriving in the US prior to the revolution:-)

Just bored and raising hate and discontent again:-)

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 04:32:15 (ZULU)

One of my infrequent posts. LOT's of great posts...postulating on the current state of the world. Terrorism on the upsurge and our "human shields" still don't want us to do anything to the perps...

We've gone from the "melting pot" where people worked hard to become Americans and were proud of it to the "salad bowl" there where each should keep his/her nationala identity and not be integrated into our society. The proponents of this theory tell us this can strengthen our national character, etc. Right!

I would propose another theory. Those who come here to be educated, find job's, and taste our freedom's don't want to go home. They don't want to be part of the process, in their own countries, that helped form our great nation

...at a significant price. They are cowards who want a piece of our national pie without having contributed anything except their presence and drain on our economy. I submit that we have become a REFUGEE CAMP. 'nuff said...

On the .223 WSM. You gotta be kidding me! The .22/250 is a notorious barrel burner and this thing has 17% MORE capacity! Yup, that grey you see following your bullet is rifling! Good luck, NOT me. I'll stick .223 Rem, .308, 6.5 X .284. Thankee very much!

Am off my one year probationary service on April 1st. Pay raise, etc. will acompany that event. Hard to believe it's been a year.

UNdude, how's the knee? Hope all is progressing well for you...

'Bout all for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes

P.S. Waiting for my Gardner .338 Lapua to show up...:-)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 04:39:25 (ZULU)

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 05:19:05 (ZULU)

Most important, though, Joe M.: Words just don't work. Deepest sympathies to her, from all in my house.

All you folks plugging in poll numbers, the phrase I aways hear is "figures lie and liars figure." Anyone can make any poll say anything, depending on wording and results desired. Current media accounts of *anything* show this very clearly.

And while I know my name seems to get some peoples hackles up, I had to risk passing along this link, sent to me from an even more liberal shooter friend. (Yes, they exist. ;) It's pretty well written, and the points it argues are not without merit. Though I know I'll catch H--- for posting it here.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2003/03/07/notes030703.DTL&nl=fix

I'll be in my bunker, awaiting the coming s---storm.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 06:20:26 (ZULU)

Damn well said, Mike.

jc

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 06:26:53 (ZULU)

  The Mercedes plant is in Vance, Alabama. It's near Tuscaloosa, somewhat near Birmingham.

  Alabama spends ass loads of money on roads. After traveling in other parts of the country, I think we have the best roads. While the state government likes to piss away money, at least we get to use the roads. The highways tend to be good all through the state.

  Honda also has a plant in Alabama. They and Mercedes received millions of dollars worth of tax and land incentives.

 BMW has a plant in South Carolina i think. Also, BMW owns Rolls-Royce cars. I still can't believe that happened.

Scope bases/mounts;

 Is there anyone who can build quality scope bases/mounts for under a few hundred bucks? The only mount I can find for a 1903 in a B-Square. It'll work but I'd rather have something better. I don't want to drill the top of the receiver.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 14:49:09 (ZULU)

I guess I will chime in on origins.. the hunter side of the family all came from troup country georgia - frenchman and cherokee indian started it all.

Hmm... frenchman...maybe that's why I tend to sleep with my arms up in theair.... dam! gotta tie them things down tomy side... LOL

later on hawgs....back to werk..

Ken

ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, USofA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 15:12:22 (ZULU)

HORSESHIT!..........How's dat fo conservative free speech.......For further debate you know where to find me.

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 17:03:09 (ZULU)

Terry Hoover <Thooverusmcv68@aol.com>
Kansas City, Kansas, - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 17:43:15 (ZULU)

"all while remaining safe and cozy in your little hippie-happy tofu-licking gay-friendly S.F. cocoon, all protected and insulated and smug. " describes him pretty well.

"Shrub sends in 300,000 of our youth to blast a cheap thug who is, by every account, no serious threat to the U.S., and never has been, and who had nothing to do with 9/11, and whose ties to terrorism are tenuous at best, all while rabid North Korea happily buys more nuke technology from desperate Pakistan and sells the finished product to the highest bidder. " has a ring of truth. And we will insure that he does not become a threat won't we, and we'll get around to North Korea shortly too won't we?

"The military does not protect my freedom. Our soldiers are not out there right now safeguarding me, or you, or us, from some sort of total, '50s-era, Red Scare-esque dictatorial overthrow of our nation; nor is the military guaranteeing I have the right to write this column any more than it is protecting your right to read it, or to protest the war and speak freely and smoke imported French cigarettes and watch porn and drive really fast. Not anymore, they're not. Not this time. " .... No that was last time. This time we are shipping some ordinance and some world class invasion forces to those who whould return to the 50s era Red Scare-ewque dictorial overthrow of our nation.

"our smirky Enron president and cash-hungry CEO administration, it's never been so flagrant, or insulting, or invidious. "...I Can't argue with that but what has that got to do with the threat from abroad?

"Our soldiers are not protecting our freedoms. They are not preventing more terrorism. They are not guaranteeing continued free speech. Because the only true threat to such freedoms is coming from within. "... and that is mostly comprised of Liberal assholes like you Mark Morford or that Clinton Jerk or that simpleminded pacificist carpenter from Peanut Georgia who fostered all this crap the these rag heads to start with.  We should have attacked Iran and stopped all this long ago when they took the hostages.

"until your pathetic little faggy S.F. and granola Berkeley get "hit" and your family and friends are screaming and burning to death and we'll see how you feel then, won't we, when Dubya tried to warn you and where will your hippie crap be then huh? Huh? ",,,How could I top that?

"Saddam is a threat to those same corporate concerns. The U.S. military is right now serving ExxonMobil. And Lockheed Martin. And is protecting, unbeknownst to it, our grip on power brokering in the Middle East. "..... yes and isn't it beautiful!  Capitalism in action... whining boy... get used to it!

Oh yes, quotes from Mark Morford San Francisco Gate. who rightfully deserves the credit for such literary genius.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 18:41:18 (ZULU)

It’s too cold to spend any time on the range today so I’ve been down in the office working on my next installment for The Practitioner’s Guide.  I’ve been pulling out my references for the work and found another error in the field manuals.  The tough part of this is that two manuals contradict each other and I don’t know which is right.

Specifically the topic is range estimation using the naked eye.

In the SOTIC manual in section 4-6 it says;

They (objects) will also appear nearer when the viewer is looking downward from high ground.

In FM23-10, Sniper Training, dtd.17 August 1994 in section VI it says;

Looking downhill, the target appears farther away.

Does anybody have a clue as to which is correct?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 19:27:23 (ZULU)

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 19:58:11 (ZULU)

When looking down on a person/target that target is going to look shorter than it actually is, thus the impression it is farther away. Exact opposite when looking up at a target, it will appear closer than actually is. It all boils down to the angle at which you are looking at the target.

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 20:40:38 (ZULU)

So where's Lito lately?

JR what day you guys coming over.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 20:45:11 (ZULU)

Brogers: As always, an interesting analysis. I'm recommending it to the friend who sent me the link.

Mark and Terry: Brevity becomes you.

However, if you cannot think like your enemy, walk among him, know his ways, love his pleasures and despise his torments, understand his side of the story without condescention or awe, you will never defeat your enemy. Not with steel, fire, salt, or gold. Remember that, gentlemen.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 21:40:22 (ZULU)

I had a good 100 yard zero when I went down there, but it still took 10 sighters to get me in the x. Up and down, up and down, wasn't paying attention to the dial. By then I was running out of time and ended up shooting the first match in rapid fire.

The HBV needs 5 minutes less to make the trip than my PSS. This I don't understand. Same ammo, similar guns, different elevations. As usual I couldn't settle down, got in a hurry, rushed my shots, got frustrated, couldn't read the wind, couldn't decipher the mirage, the same old story.

Soaking her tube with Hoppes now. Ahhhhh, the sweet smell of Hoppes wafting through the house! A true aphrodesiac.

Shot with a retired marine chopper pilot, etc. Nice guy with a nice wifey who kept me straight on keeping her hubby's score while my mind was wondering off.

Whooped Bolt, Out!

BTW, Master Cockerham is not deceased or MIA. He cleaned my clock again, nothing new about that.

Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:10:55 (ZULU)

I too thought the article was horseshit, and the guy who wrote it sounds like a horse's ass.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:12:57 (ZULU)

   By doing these things you will not defeat your enemy......You will become your enemy.......

   This is knowing the nature of the foe stretched beyond necessity.....

   .....Witness the Civil War......

   More Horseshit.

Oh and by the way, Corporate America is established by the consumer, not the military........

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:17:17 (ZULU)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:21:52 (ZULU)

          Very well said! President Enron Bush? C'mon, that shit took seed and blossomed during Klintons watch. Bush just happened to be around for the harvest.

Treehugger,

           I won't dignify that drivel by calling it horseshit. Horseshit has a real value. I trade it for fresh-picked apples and peaches every year.

           As to your comment at the end of your post - seems like I heard the same referencing moccasins. To put it into the kind of language that San Franciscans understand - does a straight have to take it up the ass BEFORE he knows that it's gonna hurt?

           If your effort was intended to stir the pot around here it was mildly sucessful, but it was but a ripple compared to Winchester vs. Remington, USO vs. Leupold, Steve NATO, or Dean Michalis and his "magic bullets". A little excitement is better than none. At least that's what they tried to tell us during the VN  bomb shortage.

It's allll...goood!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:34:06 (ZULU)

I was going to chime in with a response to your question, and then I read Master Whittington's response.  The first thing that must be regognized is that it only applies to range estimating with the naked eye-  as you know, if you are milling the targets vertical dinension, whether up- or downhill you will get the same reading(distance)in both cases and it will be wrong. As a "rule of thumb" if you are actually looking up or down the "line" of a hill, Bobby's comments work well.  But, as with all "rules of thumb" there are exceptions.  If you remove the "line" formed by the hill (i.e.; you are looking through open space) the rule has limited and variable utility.  Look at the age old optical illusion below:

         <---->

         >----<

Drawing it for yourself on a piece of paper will help, but you know what I'm talking about--The bottom line looks longer.  It is the same visual problem in estimating distances up- and downhill.  Without the visual cue provided by the LINE of the hill between the observer and target things get a little sketchy.

Those of you that are shooting ASC# 2 will get a real world application of the ups and downs of long range shooting.        

 Rod

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:34:50 (ZULU)

Yes, we do venture into "politics" as does every bar, parkbench and bus stop in the USA.

Anyway; Huggerman Some people seem to think that everything the US of A does should involve some kind of holy human rights or foreign aid to some volcano invested island somewhere not to mention some malady spread by some kind of unnatural sex act. It's not all about Democracy it's also about making it work. If we allow our businesses and corporations to be depressed by threat of foreign attack or interests we can control, we'll wind up like the rest of the 3rd world. Starving and conquered. The world needs to know it's our freedom and welfare we are concerned with. Not neccessarily theirs or some other outdated country that floated a statue in awe of our efforts a few decades ago. The French and their statue is clearly an indication of what they think freedom is all about. Monuments by God don't keep us free. Those grunts over there are doing it and always will. The Pen is mighter than the sword they say. Just be damn careful how you challenge a swordsman.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 22:59:13 (ZULU)

   This to answer all of the people who claim that the war with Iraq is unjustified and Saddam hasn't bothered us.

   First a few points. WHERE does bin Laden get his gear? WHO would have more reason to support Al Queda's attacks on the U.S. ? The inspections are an excuse for the UN. Otherwise, we wouldn't have many allies. But, thank you to the ones we do have.

   Or let's look at it this way. Here's plenty of justification. Hussein is a murderous tyrant. I heared someone say that WW2 was the last justified war we fought because we were attacked. We were attacked on Sept. 11th by terrorist.

  On Dec. 7th (the liberals will remember Pearl Harbor because of that Baldwin puke, a disgrace to GEN Doolittle) we were attacked by the Japanese Empire. Yet we fought against Hitler and Musolini. Hitler did declare war on the U.S. but the Nazis didn't attack us nor did the Italians. We destroyed a large portion of Italy and Germany even though we really didn't have to fight them. Why did we fight the Axis powers? It wasn't because of the Holocaust (some of the liberals will be confused at this), we(the world) didn't know about the horrors being commited by the Nazis. We only knew that the Jews were being oppressed. We fought the war in Europe and North Africa because the Nazis and Facist Italians were allied with Japan.

   The same applies to Hussein and bin Laden. If we only fight bin Laden we leave Hussein unchecked. Just like fighting only Tojo and leaving Hitler. Remember, we didn't really know how bad Hitler was until we entered Germany.

  Now, using the same anti-war logic of today, were we wrong to destroy Hitler? If so, tell it to the Holocaust survivors.

  Then again, these anti-war hippie wanna-be's believe we were wrong to use atomic bombs on Japan. They would rather have 10 times as many military and civilians die in a conventional invasion.

  Sometimes there are no good alternatives, just the lesser of two evils. The Arab world will never love us or even respect us, don't kid yourselves. They are taught to hate Christians and Jews (WE HAVE MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE) and anyone who supports Israel.

  Anyone remember the protest that were going on before Gulf War 1? They crawled away in a hurry after it got started and the people gave great support to the operation.

  If anyone can prove me wrong, I welcome you do do so.

I'm probably just preaching to the choir, but maybe some liberal anti-war types will get this. Oh, and we are blessed that we have the President we do in this war. If we had Gore, we would have already surrendered.

Dean;

  I see the "magic bullet" debate is still in memory.

                LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 23:00:36 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 23:51:43 (ZULU)

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 23:54:30 (ZULU)

The initial part of my earlier post was not directed at the general discussion of what to do, or when, or how, it was directly pointed at the BS comments about blaming various administrations and groups for the current state of affairs.  And believe me it is BS.  Our system is set up so a president is elected and there is a smooth, orderly transition of power from one person to another.  Like it or not, the world situation, and internal politics are SOOOOOO much more complex than ANY one person can control, it is nothing short of silly to play the blame game when it comes to a particular situation.  What US president has been presented with four years without an issue or two that he would have preferred had happened on someone else's watch?  Every president enters office with the legacy of decades of bad decisions to remedy.  After all, it's HISTORY and we can't change it.  Some portion of the population (The Majority) elected every leader we have ever had and we continue to exist as a country; through every swing of the pendulum -liberal and conservative. Our system produces BALANCE over time. It is this very fact that contributes to making the US a great country. The framers wanted it this way.    

I guess this response was not really directed toward you Bill, as I said we agree.

Now, can we please talk about shooting -  even if its BB's

  Rod  

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 01:22:26 (ZULU)

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 02:13:53 (ZULU)

   You have mail, no attachments.

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 02:17:36 (ZULU)

Jody, well said.

Shit I'm tired, damn night shifts. interesting team on tonight, Got a Greek, A German who is Mick Jaggers double, a Yank, who is a Vietnam Vet and me.. think I'll buy em a coffee and we can talk war.

Question,, you guys who have the Badger bottom metal on a Rem 700. How much larger is it than the standard unit and how did you remove the nessecary material from the stock, with a dremmel or actualy machine it out? I've got to fit n bed Jon B's new stock for him this week and i was wondering how anyone else had done it.

Coffee time.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 02:21:46 (ZULU)

Here's the questions again

1, How do you send care packages to the troops?

  A, What is the address that you put on the packages?

  B, Do you get charged normal postage rates or do you get a break

     when you send stuff to our military guys?

  C, How big can the packages be, weight and size?

2, What do you guys or gals that have been in the military like to get

  in care packages?

  A, hard candy

  B, toilet paper

  C, magazines

  D, tootpaste

  E, chapstick

  F, what else, since I haven't been in I don't know what is most

     popular

  E, A note thanking them for their sacrifice maybe

3, Joe Mahon, since you spend alot of time here and seem to me like a

  good family man and a leader who cares about his troops can I send

  them to you and you pass them out as needed or is this a bad idea?

4, Any other info that would make this easier would be helpful, I

  know everyone likes to get something in the mail and since I'm not

  in the military I feel like it's the least I can do.

Tony Burkes <tburkes@sbcglobal.net>
Alvin, Tx, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 02:29:12 (ZULU)

Jim; I think the contour is the same. The stocks will fit and interchange anyway. There is no advantage unless you like the flutted barrels of the VSSF ;models.

Rod; yes, we don't disagree and it's probably just bar talk to even discuss it but satisfying none the less to some of us old farts that they won't take in the Sniper Service anymore. But individual politicians can be responsible. Take for instance the decision to end Sniper diplomacy. Clinton sent in (count em as they roar past) 70 cruise missles after Osama and finally blew a medical plant at probably no particular fault of his own but the hearts and minds aren't won that way. One little matchking would have been Nixon's or JFK's solution to that little problem.  Much cheaper and the world would have long forgotten him. Regan had a nice way of handling trouble makers like Kadaffi but he should have sent the sniper instead. Carter's little liberal plan to do away with Sniper diplomacy and signed by Ford (another dumb butt) put us in the shape we're in. You see, back then....If you screwed with us too much the CIA might stop your clock and nobody would know any different. There were many Suicides and strange illnesses attributed to natural causes but the Dictators and Tyrants soon caught on. Castro is a miracle that survived. I know how but that's another story.

You see these are just little electronic Bytes, they don't pain anyone except Maurius, our long suffering archiver. But heck, we can just click click delete and it's all gone. We aren't even ruining spotted owl habitat with logging or anything like that.  I'm able to use either hand equally well. A unusual condition of nature but almost anyone can talk about politics and guns at the same time.

BB's do bore me though :) No problem Rod I know where you're coming from. But the site was getting a little stale! Yes, Pete I miss him too. It's not the same. No contr. makes for a dull site.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 03:47:36 (ZULU)

  There is a local group taking up donated items for the local NG/Reserves. They are looking for travel size items that are not normally issued such as: eye drops, skin moisturizer, razors, sun screen, etc. I have donated a few items.

  If there isn't any group near you, maybe you can form one. I'd talk to the Red Cross. You could also talk to the local NG/Reserves and donate to them if they are deploying. Or perhaps adopt an active military unit and contact that unit's PAO (public affairs)and they should assist you or at least put you on the right track.

  Whatever you send, just make sure it's small, easy to carry, won't spoil, tasteful, and can be used by anyone who gets it.

LATER

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 04:11:19 (ZULU)

Brogers: To be stubborn, yes, the most important thing is the Democracy, and you should think very d--- hard about using any sarcasm when describing the human rights the UN (and the US, on its better days) champions as holy. That's what it's about. The big picture. If you doubt me, read the CONSTITUTION. When it becomes about our corporations and the stability of our economy, it becomes about Plutocracy, and I don't think either of us is wealthy enough to enjoy the final result of that sort of policymaking. Unless maybe you're one of the ones who got out of Enron in time. That being said, I don't think we'd agree much on most things, but on sending in a sniper to do the job PROPERLY the FIRST TIME, we're at 100%.

Mark Smith: Yes, Corporate America was established by the consumer, not the military. No, you won't become your enemy, any more than learning to speak Russian and spending a few years living in Russia will make you a Russian. There is no such thing as too much knowledge.

Jody: Thank you, that was one of the best pieces of argument I've yet seen on this site. Though if you want to know where bin Laden got his gear and training, look no farther than our own CIA. Since his days as mujahidin, he's been restocking in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where the local gunsmiths can reverse-engineer an M4 in six hours and have a perfect copy on the street in eighteen. Even according to the CIA, Iraq has no or negligible links to alQaeda. And if you think the Arab world will never love us, you don't know your history so well as you think. In the 30s, America could do no wrong in that part of the world. Only our blind support of Israel has turned them against us. Hell, you can hardly blame them for that. That being said, your analogy between the US going to war with Hitler and going to war against Iraq was excellent and has a lot of merit.

Rod: Your post was *elegant*! Playing the "blame game", thinking of each administration as separate from the next or the last, is very foolish indeed. But the best part of your post was about returning to talk about shooting.

And to finish that thought, though this request is somewhat out of place here, does anyone have a favorite source for 1920s pistol parts? I've got an Ortgies that needs a new .380 barrel.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 06:33:11 (ZULU)

I am waiting eagerly for my next GA stick.... the much discussed SC rifle..!

Any word from master Rick?

JagerSpotter, how goes it?

I have a couple of S&B PM IIs coming from the across the pond, it will be interesting to see how they compare to the older one I have and the Leupolds and NSXs. Nothng else seems to look right on the AI rifles.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 08:17:19 (ZULU)

  And next time you're at the lake, give Alexander's horse an apple for me ;))

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 10:49:05 (ZULU)

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 11:54:12 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 12:14:22 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 12:15:23 (ZULU)

Alexander was 11 years old when he got his first horse named Bucephalus. He was the only one who could tame him. Bucephalus was famous because he took Alexander to the battlefields every time. Alexander's horse Bucephalus died at age 30. Alexander had reached the Punjab in what is now Pakistan and he built a city called Bucaphala in the horse's honor. Now Bucephalus name is in history.  By the way Bucephalus means "Ox Head".....great name.

How's that for "off topic"?

Ref:6.5x.284 loads

I'm going to go get some magnum rifle primers and see if I can cut down the extreme spread of my loads.  Is there a powder for this case size that will be Varget-Like in its temperature resistance?  I hate to use up too much barrel life working up loads.  I've been warned that loads that are ok in 40 degrees F will go overpressure in 80 or 90 degree weather.  So what do I do?  Wait until summer?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 12:22:08 (ZULU)

Bull Shit that Arabs have ever loved America. They were indeed afraid of TR and his foreign policies but the infidel has always and will continue to be the boogey man over there. Our "Blind support" of Israel has kept a Race from extinction in that part of the world. That seems pro human rights to me. But what would I know of such things?

Oh yeah, who pays for the Military. Is that in the constitution

To Lurkers and occasional posters and closet Liberals:

Hey, you don't come in here and throw a sucker punch and then change the subject if anyone's thinkin like that, I ain't takin prisioners.

Kevin' you might try this new Bench Rest Powder from the Varget producers, they claim it's more Temp Stable. I could tell little difference yet in the .308 class but something tells me it would work better in the .260 class.

The .260 I tried was a bit much as a Varmint round. It will sure as hell take out a coyote or PD but it's a little overkill. The 260-284 is likewise a bit much but it works I'm told as a long range cartridge so there might be a niche in there somewhere.

John are you talking bullets or bull he's shooting?

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 13:42:49 (ZULU)

Once upon a time in a nice little forest, there lived an orphaned bunny and an orphaned snake. By a surprising coincidence, both were blind from birth.

One day, the bunny was hopping through the forest, and the snake was slithering through the forest, when the bunny tripped over the snake and fell down. This, of course, knocked the snake about quite a bit.

"Oh, my," said the bunny, "I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you.  I've been blind since birth, so, I can't see where I'm going. In fact, since I'm also an orphan, I don't even know what I am."

"It's quite OK," replied the snake. "Actually, my story is much the same as yours. I, too, have been blind since birth, and also never knew my mother.  Tell you what, maybe I could slither all over you, and work out what you are, so at least you'll have that going for you."

"Oh, that would be wonderful" replied the bunny. So the snake slithered all over the bunny, and said, "Well, you're covered with soft fur; you have really long ears; your nose twitches; and you have a soft cottony tail.  I'd say that you must be a bunny rabbit."

"Oh, thank you! Thank you," cried the bunny, in obvious excitement. The bunny suggested to the snake, "Maybe I could feel you all over with my paw, and help you the same way that you've helped me."

So the bunny felt the snake all over, and remarked, "Well, you're smooth slimy and slippery, and you have a forked tongue, no backbone, and no balls.

I'd say you are definitely French".

Workman <cworkman@esiofva.com>
Va Beach, VA, - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 14:02:24 (ZULU)

  By no means fitting your criteria of "in between", IMHO, every serious varmint shooter should have at least one .223, and if possible a Hornet..Both allow lots of shooting as componants are cheap and barrel life is long for  either. Hunting varmints with the Hornet is just that. Sort of like being a kid again.  Just my .02 worth.

   outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Safely ensconced in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 14:48:40 (ZULU)

Kevin don't waste your time with a Fag Mag.   Bottom line is 300wm, RL22, Fed Case, Fed215m primer, MK190.  It works every time.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 15:19:29 (ZULU)

Kevin,

H4831SC is an Extreme powder like Varget, and being slower burning than the H4350 you're using now, is better suited to that long barreled 6.5x.284 you got.  Just MHO.

Don  

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 15:25:20 (ZULU)

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 15:29:38 (ZULU)

rabbit n snake, sounds like a good name for a pub to me,, laughed my ass off.

22 Hornet, a mate of mine shoots a lot of roe deer with it, close range only.

What you need is one of each.

A hornet for plinking and for the kids to use( or a 17 watsername hornady thing)

a 223 for general use,

you can debate the 22.250, its marginaly better than a 223 and doesn't quite match the 220swift, sod it, get a 233 and a 220swift.

Then you want a 243, so your boy can deer hunt and you can varmint in the wind, and a 260, just because you can. Then damn it does get windy, and i'd like a pronghorn rifle, hmm i'll have a 25-06, and a 270 (just cos Jack whatshisname had one), got to have a fag mag, cos everyone wants one, and bugger, gotta have 308, cos everybodys got one, and a 300wm, cos its faster, then a 338 win mag, maybe see an elk one day...and a 338 lap mag, dunno how far that elk will be?? now i've got all these guns,, theres still something missing,,, summot bigger,, yeah i always fancied one of them half inch things, what was it now, 50 BMG, whats BMG stand for anyway, Bugger Me what a Gun, yeah thats right..

Or maybe just buy a 450 marlin and a 30-06 for everything over 150m away,, pointless having a 308, it'll only sit in the safe( but my boy likes to shoot is so i'll keep it, and i can always rent it to hunters for 20 a day plus ammo..

Just thinking out loud and trying to talk my self out of the need for more guns and a bigger bloody gun safe, I'm failing miserably, now i want summot that looks like an M16... just cos i can still have one..

pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 15:54:54 (ZULU)

      Any of the Hodgdon 'Extreme' series of powders would be less temperature sensitive than comparable powders of similar burning rates from other manufacturers. As to your fagmag, it seems to me that your bore to case capacity is close to that of my .270W, so I have to agree with the suggestion of H4831SC - I get 3250Fps. MV with a 130gr NBT from a 24" bbl.

      Hell, and all along I've been thinking that Bucephalus was a sailboat!

Treehugger,

          If the Arab world loved us in the 1930's it was only because we liberated them from the Ottoman Empire (the Turks) at the conclusion of WWI. Remember that Palestine is an artificial State created by the British (as a result of above) and was occupied while the rest of the world tried to figure out what to do with it. That, of course, was rudely interrupted by the Nazis startind WWII.

          Now speaking of the Nazis, the Arab world fell in love with fugitive Nazis in the late 1940's and attempted to use them to build and train their military. Yes, we harbored Nazi fugitives also, but they were OUR Nazis. You know - my vicious Pitbull is OK, and I keep him in a very secure Kennel, but their Pitbull is also vicious and is allowed to roam the streets at will - NOT OK!

          After the Nazis found out that they could not live in an Islamic world and stay German (they went to South America), the Arab world had a long and fruitful love affair with the Soviet Union, who supplied them with most of the military equipment and the training doctrine that they still use today. Where do you think that the Kalashnikovs, RPG's, MiG's, and tanks came from - the USA?

          The Arab world are merely common whores, in love with whichever pimp is keeping them high at the moment! So f**k 'em.

          BTW, the reference to moccasins was an attempt to draw a parallel between the old adage attributed to the American Indian and the 'know your enemy' of your post. "You can't know a man 'til you waly a mile in his moccasins". Ugh!

          And why should we not support the State of Isreal? I can't remember Nazis and Soviet Communists ever being their invited guests! The Israeli's have been our only constant friends and allies in the Mid-East since 1948.

Shooting note!!,

               Considering ANY .22 centerfire for varmints, if you don't have an accurate .223 (Mini-14's need not apply) you owe it to yourself to get one. Learn it, use it, THEN maybe fill in around it!

Scope and mount question,

                        Very recently received an e-mail from CDNN advertising 4x24 Hensoldt STANAG scopes with .223 reticle, also Blits

STANAG mounts, both supposedly US SF issue, for sale. I know that Hensoldt is a German brand, but know nothing about this particular model, nor do I know anything about a Blits mount. Yes, I do know what STANAG means;-)) Can anybody out there give me a heads up on this stuff? How about Master Rick?

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 17:20:42 (ZULU)

John: Was that quip about shooting and writing directed at me or at that ding-dong Mark Morford? I doubt Morford would know which end of the gun to point at his foot.

Kevin: Yes, ox- or bull-headed, depending on the translation. Have you heard the story of how Bucephalus was tamed?

Alan: Thanks for clarification on the moccasins quip. Thought that might have been it.

Alan and Brogers: I suggest you look more closely at the 'tween wars, non-military history. Both Arabs and Persians offered us friendship on several occasions. We threw it away, choosing instead to undermine several attempts at democratic governments because those nascent governments did not feel our expolitation of their oil was in their best interests. For some reason, they no longer trust us. Who'd have thought it?

Brogers: 1) I tossed Morford's article out for the amusement value and to get people thinking. If you look at my later postings, you will find that I refered the person who sent me that link to the replies posted here. 2) I suggest you take poli-sci 101. Democracy and capitalism are two different animals, often found in the same habitat but not inextricably linked. One does not necessarily fall because the other does. 4) Who pays for the military? Don't get too self-rightous and defensive of our corporations. We all pay taxes, even liberals. 5) Are you calling me two-faced about being a liberal who shoots? Saying that because I hold a different opinion than you that I can't talk guns? Nice to get a graphic example of your support for the 1st Amendment as well as the 2nd. 6) If you don't like it that I change the subject because some people on a shooting site want to talk shooting instead of the politics we're currently farting at each other, you have my email address to continue the rant of your choice.

That being said, I repost my question: Does anyone have a favorite source for 1920s pistol parts? I have an Ortgies in need of a new .380 barrel.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 19:31:54 (ZULU)

Steve, you gonna burn powder in the morning?

The Howa keeps geting better and better......more on that later, I gotta go to roll call and get ready to make the city safe for democracy and Krispy Kreme donuts.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 20:15:31 (ZULU)

 Go with H4831SC for your fagmag. That is what I use and shot it all year around without any trouble. I used 53 to 54 grains depending on the case lot (I have to different lots of Norma brass)with the 140AMAX and a Federal primer. This load puts me right at 2980 to 3000fps. out of a 26" barrel.

 I tried other powders and they shot well also but went with the extreme powder so I would not have to worry about temp. I have also found that the AMAXs are a tad faster with the same load than the 142s for some reason.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 20:26:38 (ZULU)

          A major portion of a snipers job is the gathering of intelligence. We're not at all like Tom Berringer;-) You have no idea how many mysteries of contemporary history could be solved or explained here should some folks divulge what they've sworn to keep secret!

         The Persians, and the Arab world, were wooed both by the US and the Soviets after WWII. Besides oil, the Soviets had a large geopolitical interest in keeping countries sharing their borders in their sphere of influence.Our interests dictated that we keep them out. Pahlavi was our dictator, and it was in our interest to ensure that he was in power rather than the Soviets Communist puppets. It wasn't until radical Islamic fundamentalism gained a stronghold that Pahlavi was booted out. There was no "noble" Iranian faction just waiting for the US to come calling. It was the Monarchy vs. the Politbureau!

         European colonialism had a whole lot more effect on the Arab countries after WWII than the US ever had. Great Britain saw the light in the post-war Mid-East by divesting themselves of their former colonies a quickly as it was practical for them to do so. Not only did the US push very hard for the old colonial powers to get out of the empire business, but Britain, for one, was financially bankrupt due to the cost of fighting WWII and couldn't even afford them any longer. France, on the other hand, dreamed of returning to its pre-war colonial glory, and demanded our help in regaining their holdings both in the Arab lands and in French-Indochina (later Vietnam). Ho Chi Minh had made overtures to the French in Paris to allow him to form a friendly government in VN. They turned him down flat - can you say rubber? Can you spell Michelin? Ho then approached the US, where his idea was welcomed with enthusiasm. When France beacme aware of this plan, they threatened to withold membership in NATO, and wanted to deny their airspace to their other "allies" in Europe. Can you visualize the Berlin Blockade?

       During those days it was more important for our interests to insure a strong united front in Western Europe and we naturally played the hand that was dealt us. The first law of survival dictates that you take care of your own first. SO WHY DO ALL OF THE LIBERALS, LEFTISTS, SOCIALISTS, CRYBABIES, AND SELF-HATING RESIDENTS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY INSIST THAT WE SACRIFICE OUR OWN AND SUPPORT THE PEOPLE THAT REPEATEDLY BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM?

       If anybody believes this "Noble Muslim" bullshit that passes for the truth in our mainstream Universities they must also believe that Fidel Castro is the saviour of the Cubans, and that Salvador Allende was really helping the Chilean people.

I could go on and on - but I won't!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 20:47:37 (ZULU)

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 21:14:26 (ZULU)

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 21:44:02 (ZULU)

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 21:55:28 (ZULU)

Just a bit of advice, get back to discussing rifles or snipey related topics.  And aye, I'm singlin you out for your own good..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, March 10, 2003, at 22:37:56 (ZULU)

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 22:51:00 (ZULU)

5) Are you calling me two-faced about being a liberal who shoots? Saying that because I hold a different opinion than you that I can't talk guns? Nice to get a graphic example of your support for the 1st Amendment as well as the 2nd. 6) If you don't like it that I change the subject because some people on a shooting site want to talk shooting instead of the politics we're currently farting at each other, you have my email address to continue the rant of your choice.

*None of the above ever happened. Those are your own words. Let me make up my own insults please.

And by the way, I don't get into off line rants. If it's not worth argueing in public it ain't worth my time.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 10, 2003, at 22:59:01 (ZULU)

  I have never heared of that pistol. It probably isn't common, therefore parts may be hard to find.

  Numrich or Brownells may have them. Possibly Sarco may know of a supplier for it.

  The only regime in the mid-east that ever really liked us was the Shah of Iran. Because we supported his imperialist ambitions (Iranians are Persians and there is a line of bad blood with them and the Arabs)and the Shah loved the American dollar(nobody loves us for free). We liked him because he sold us cheap oil and it give us an ally in the region that was at the USSR's doorstep. We could have stepped in and prevented the overthrow and averted the hostage crisis had we not been so Carterized (no pun intended),just like giving up the Panama Canal.

  I realize that we propped up the Houdinies, but bin Laden is getting resupplied from somewhere. I don't think the Russian or Chinese governments are selling to him directly. North Korea I'd believe is, as well as Iran, Syria, Iraq, and the PLO. They are not leaving any apparent evidence for obvious reasons.

 Now, back to our regularly scheduled program. (We can discuss this over e-mail if you wish.)

Kenton knobs;

 I'm considering a Kenton elevation knob. Does anyone have anything to comment about it? Seems like a good idea.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 00:05:33 (ZULU)

Alan, Alan, Alan- Stop with the labels.  Their use greatly diminishes any message you hope to impart.  You paint with a brush that is far too wide.  If you were an artist, it could only be of the "modern" variety.  I can see the titles now, "green spot on yellow background";  " blue on white"; "white on blue". Need I go on?  The WORLD and this country are not that easily categorized.  Your social and political theories are just that-  "YOURS".  Please feel free to hold on to them, but spare us.  

As far as "SELF-HATING RESIDENTS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY" go you must be the captain of the team. Your comments SHIT on every principal that makes this country great.   Think about the word "nuance"- go look it up.  Open your mind, read a different newspaper, read a few books, and stop listening to Rush.  

Now I know that there will be the obligatory comments about "closet liberal", save it.  There must be a website out there that is divoted to discussing political theory and world affairs - go find it.

Every one of you needs to take a look at the name of this website.

Is it any surprise why so many former regulars are not posting anymore?  Is it?  When was the last time that there was a thread that had any relevance and substance?  I give up.

Bill- If not BB's how 'bout the futuristic  .17 RUM?  Anyting Please

   Rod  

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 00:28:27 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 01:02:05 (ZULU)

We have a set as a prize for ASC# 2.  One competitor will be very happy.

         Rod      

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 01:29:35 (ZULU)

Rod: Impressed by accounts of .17, but not yet ready to buy one. Seems too purpose specific (long-range varminting) to me. I like versatility. Want to hear more, though.

A gentleman told me I was on thin ice, so I'm shutting up about history and politics on thread. Sorry Brogers.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 01:38:09 (ZULU)

S M E A C    (I don't belive this has changed)  complete mission; return Unscathed.

If you don't know the meaning of "S M E A C"  Ask any old infantry salt they will tell you.

Just making your "ONE VOTE" count

Semper FI

Bomac <biker3@Earthlink.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 02:26:27 (ZULU)

Watch yourself with H4831SC.  I have had great luck with it, but my standard load works great until it hits about 100 on the range, then it spatters the primer cup and I've pieced two primers.  That's with 50.5gr over a 9 1/2M.

I was getting great MV with it as well.  50.5gr was netting me 2980 on a hot day (80* plus) but the new bottle is running over 150fps slower.  I bumped the load up to 51.6gr and I'm still only at 2835.  My standard 50.5 is only ruinning 2750fps.   I think either I got a dud lot, or they slowed the powder down to burn closer to what H4831 burns at. I should have suspected something when my 1K come up went from 24 to 28moa when I switched bottles, but it was still shooting so damn good,, I fingured the hell with it.

As it is, RL22 is running faster than the H4831SC by a long shot.  I'm getting 2935fps with 51.6gr RL22 and a 215M primer.  No pressure at 72*F.  We'll see when it hits 95*....

No free lunch with this caliber I'm affraid, but certainly worth the effort.  If only all the powders were as consistant lot to lot as Varget....

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K mathc at AEDC, March 16th. , WCRC's HSTM 3 gun tactical match has been rescheduled for May 10,11. If you're not locked down due to Mothersday,, come on out and shoot., Get with me for details and drive directions. - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 03:04:58 (ZULU)

 She said she realizes that her husband died "among his family."  She also feels that she now has 5 big brothers...and she pretends to be brave--but you can see the pain in her eyes.  She is 22.

Guys, sending packages over there is easy.  Pick your favorite deployed division, then go to it's website.  

http://www.army.mil/A-Z.htm  is a list of all army webpages.

Pick a Battalion, link over, pick a company, and link over.  Get the First Sergeant's name (or just write "First Sergeant" or Commander on the name line--but it may not make it thru).  Next lines are:

company/ battalion

Divison  

APO Army Europe 09889 (Kuwait)

It is strongly advised to use a name on the address line...some (not all) webpages still have that info.  Enclose a note asking them to distribute the goodies to thier soldiers or Marines.  Hint:  Copenhagen in the cardboard cans (stateside package) is always well recieved!!!!  The plastic cans sold overseas tastes like formaldahyde.  heheh.  Old paperbacks, jerky, sunflower seeds, and nuts are always in demand.  Homemade cookies are cool, but these days the terror threat makes that unwise unless you know them personally already.  Stay with store packaged stuff for "any soldier" type mail.  A personal note of thanks to read aloud to the platoon--well, that is priceless.   That alone will do wonders for morale.  They are watching CNN in the tents at the staging areas.  And they are watching protest coverage.  A word of support will undo all that BS and raise morale.  

I think that is an outstanding contribution to this endeavor.  More than some may understand.  Do it, guys.  Once I go, I will post my address and get stuff out too.  But I have some AT seminars to hit first.  Grin.  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Columbia, South Carolina, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 03:52:52 (ZULU)

Joe, tough job but you're a good man! 22 is a bad time to go through something like that, geees.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 04:17:14 (ZULU)

Brogers: Some other time for certain. *grin!* Redhawk? You lost me.

Joe: Good man! 22? Ah cricky. That's way too young.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 04:33:08 (ZULU)

 Peace rally in Indy saturday.  Bad scene...But I was reminded of a similar protest by the loonies at Devens in December 1990 (Bush's war for oil--same damn signs still).  It seems that some forty of the protesters' autos parked along the woodline across from the main gate were missing both back wheels at the conclusion of their little chant-session.  I imagine they got pretty far down the Nashua river...

 They claim that it is the "American way" to debate issues.  Has anyone tried to debate these fools?  A debate implies reasoned argument, not name calling--right?  

Now I will tell you that my troops are affected by this.  It bums them out that a few get played on the news leaving the impression that "protests" are the norm.  It is a drag on morale.  And they deny this, but I will tell you that it has a negative effect on those in uniform.  There is a time and a place for dissent--and once the troops have deployed--it is no longer the time and place.  It is time to close ranks and if you don't like it--start planning for the next election.  To do otherwise is to provide aid and comfort to the enemy--and THAT IS UN-AMERICAN.  Yes, they have a first ammendment right to say whatever--but some things said are just un-Amaerican--and no rationalization will change that.

Say?  Has anyone heard from Jane Fonda lately?  Now that would be interesting to hear her take...

Care packages shopping suggestions:

No porn.  It'll get a kid into big-time SOFA trouble.

TP is bulky, and easy to get--use the cubes for something else.

Get a classroom full of thank-yous from a bunch of second-graders

We like to know you, so return address the box so we can say thanks!

AA batts are always scarce.

Send a disposable camera and be surprised by amazing photos someday

Gold bond powder

A properly folded US Flag will fly from the antenae of the lead vehicles to clebrate victory...

Sunblock and lip balm

No alcohol...damn!

writing paper for newbies who forget such stuff, envelopes too.

If you got them, send old hair clippers (some units still have hand-ops--but all units have a generator)

Cheap non-fadish sunglasses (black lens/ frames)

cutter or off bugspray.  The valley has fleas and skeeters!  

Chewing gum--sugary kid-stuff kind

Green Duct tape and electrical tape

Jolly Ranchers

dried fruit

summer sausage

Mags (sports, motorcycle, truckin' etc...)

playing cards

pringles

etc.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 04:53:23 (ZULU)

 Thanks for the off-topic on Alexander.  That wasn't first-hand knowledge, was it?

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 05:04:44 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 05:08:30 (ZULU)

          Just who in the fuck do you think you are? It looks like you've taken it upon yourself to become the content moderator of this site, as well as to invite me to leave and go somewhere else to post my comments. A newbie opens up a can of worms and you pronounce from your perch, high on bullshit mountain, what you deem acceptable to be seen on this site.

           Don't you ever even attempt to order me, or anyone else on this sight, to conform to your list of accepted behaviors! If the Council tells me to go away I will certainly respect their wishes, because this is their ballgame, not yours. If you disagree with anything I say you have all the right in the world to disagree, and to do it in public.

           You've been talking Constitution out of the right side of your mouth while repression of opposing thoughts comes out of the left. People come and go for different reasons and to blame only our posts on political positions is one hell of a leap of faith on your part. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, don't let your inflated sense of self importance get in my way! We may find out if you're really the  "GatorBird" that some call you. I'm telling you - DON'T FUCK WITH ME! Let the children play, teacher. Or they just might eat you! Like ol' 'yote bait, I'm not inclined to take this off site. Do it in front of God and everybody, or don't do it at all!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 05:35:53 (ZULU)

Rod,

I think the threads have been more political lately because there is a sense of anxiety over getting this campaign started.  It's what's on everyone's minds.  

I'm here in Jock-land, they are great folk, don't get me wrong, I'd lie down in traffic for the lot, but they're not Yanks, are they.  So a lot of the time, I'm just poppin in to breathe a little bit of home, keeps me grounded..

Should have the 'Mystery Machine' van loaded and pointed towards IWA in about 4 hours.  Imagine I'll have plenty of snipey/equipment related topics and an off topic story or two when I get back.  Will be a good time.  Youse guys have a good one as well.  Maybe by then we'll be kickin some ass..

Pete, Jon, we'll see ya there..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Nuremburg or Bust!!, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 06:07:28 (ZULU)

I'm going to take some time off work this noon and drive up to the city and get some reloading supplies.  I've got to decide between RL22 and H4831SC for powder and I guess I'll get some magnum rifle primers.  215M I figure.

 Could my wide variation in velocities be from using standard large rifle primers?  We'll see I guess.

 I was thinking of a great marketing tool and new product for the powder companies.  You know how the breakfast cereal makers pack twelve little boxes of a selection of their products in one pack.  What if the powder manufacturers did something like that with 1/4 pound samples of their various powders.  It sure makes sense to me.

 I got the rest of my Lapua brass yesterday so I'm good-to-go for the season as soon as I figure out what the load is going to be.

Ref: Alexander's Horse

Joe, that's not first hand knowledge on my part.  I was too young at the time to remember Alexander but my parents told me about him. ;-)

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 09:57:47 (ZULU)

i posted that i was looking to buy a heavy barreled gun, do to them being more accurate at longer ranges. the reply said that the heavy barrel was only more accurate due to it being slower to heat build up in multiple shots, and that a sporter barrel is just as accurate on "cold shot" performance. (long range varmint application)  

Besides heat build up, isnt a heavy barell just plain stiffer, and more resistant to vibration than a sporter barrel, and therefore more inherently accurate?

Question 2: Heavy artillery - what do they use to set off the charge on the big aretillery pieces, that are breech loaded with bags of powder?  ie what do they use for a primer? (a navy 15" gun for instance)

thanks

Rob

rob rat <rratvask@tricountyi.net>
central, pa, usa - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 11:40:51 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 11:45:48 (ZULU)

 It snowed again here in the Alleghenies last night, the horses are fed, and I've got a pot of coffee on, so, I have all day..Lets start with the ideal SWS for LE, followed by your opinions on calling Eastern 'yotes, how you feel about Glocks/1911s, belly guns, long vs. short barrels, 308 vs 300WM, or Mk4M3s.  Or, you pick the subject! I'm just a dumb ole country boy and politics and pissing matches make my head hurt..

  As to the "challenge" of liking to load the Hornet, or anything else:::

  I hate to load ammo and have always used the anology of cutting firewood;  If you still enjoy it you haven't probably HAD to do enough of it.  Dillons ease the pain, but not by much.

 Lighten up guys

 outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Safely ensconced in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 13:40:55 (ZULU)

  Are there any that really stand out above the rest?...or more importantly, any brand or model I should avoid?

Not interested in alot of fancy features, just accuracy and reliability really.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

JB

John Bechtell <ajbechtell@yahoo.com>
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 13:50:04 (ZULU)

You can buy their stand kit for $50 or you can go out and try to find some photographer's light stands cheap.

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
upstate, sc, US of A - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 13:57:53 (ZULU)

John, this was for you RE: Chronographs.

The lightstands are used to hold the rail that you put the sky screens on.

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
upstate, sc, US of A - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 14:01:57 (ZULU)

Ok so I called em Jerks! It was only because that was the mildest word I could think of  so don't put me down as a homophobe. I'm an "old" homophobe so get it right you Liberal Jerks.  That's a joke Jerks! Seriously.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 14:20:24 (ZULU)

Anyone ever notice how much hatred and bile gets spewed by the red diaper doper babies?  If I ever spoke publicly about their patron saint, Former President Clinton, I would be condemned loudly.

It really saddens me to realize that communism is alive and well here in the US, since anything the left disagrees with is obviously fueled by "corporate" ie, captilaist interest.  That's okay, If President Bush decided to invade NK tomorrow, the left would rejoice and support him because NK is a greater threat than Saddam?  Right, they lost congress, they are fixin', for you Texicans, to lose the power of juidicial activism, and the only response is shrill, hateful, unthinking vitriol spewed at a man who truly has the best interest of the nation in mind.

Rant off, council feel free to delete if the politics is getting out of hand.

Steve Burris

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 14:25:54 (ZULU)

The war on terrorism, troops deployed in harms way, aggressive US foreign policy...these are things I strive to understand because it is my job as a US citizen....recently, all have also impacted my life directly.

I have my doubts about the situation in the gulf... I voted for GB jr and I am hoping he has this situation figured out... I have friends in the 82nd who I would very much like to see come home.  I'm not sure what we are doing is the right thing... I'm absolutely certain that doing nothing is the wrong thing....The US needs to respond to the terror threat, it's just a question of how and where....

Bottom line on this... I think this discussion does belong on a site dedicated to the use and understanding of deadly force.

As for the loss of contributors.....

I'm an expert on a subject not related to this site... I spend some of my time sharing with those that do not yet know what I know.  If I did it for recognition, ego stroking, etc, I would have quit long ago... I do it because I wish there was someone there when I was learning the basics...someone that could have pushed me that much further.  I figure the folks that left are either busy doing other work (in the sand perhaps), or they just didn't appreciate the rewards associated with openly sharing knowledge with those less accomplished in their field of expertise. (trust me... no loss in the long term... complacency ultimately kills every one of those "experts", continuous learning requires you give back at a certain level of accomplishment...)

Treehugger - This is a somewhat conservative site... if you pick one subject, express YOUR opinion, support YOUR opinion and keep it civil, I believe you will have a constructive exchange. To date, your actions have been received by me as less constructive than most.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 14:43:04 (ZULU)

A very sad Sarge!

Out

Sarge <Sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 15:23:34 (ZULU)

Now these wonderful, been pissed on by the US, folks have a saying "Women are for breading and boys are for fun"  That to me is just plain sick.  I say take Michael Jackson with you on a vacation over there if you find so much fault with the US.

WE OWE THE ARAB WORLD JACK SHIT!

Rod, your a good man, sober up and get off Alans back. Many of us regulars have been busy getting ready for the Arab World.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 15:36:16 (ZULU)

Barron Moreland <bmoreland@sc.rr.com>
Cayce, SC, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 16:00:44 (ZULU)

Treehugger - hope you have thick skin....

Now actual rifle stuff: Hogs - I've been busy in the background helping out the folks at Iron Brigade Armory. I'm no where near a fully qualified gun builder - especially a Chandler Sniper. I help out where I can - part time at best. Talk about an eye for detail. There's a reason those riffles aren't cheap. There's all kinds of other gun related work in play as well.

Anyhow - we have a handful of extra McMillan stocks that we're looking to move. Selling stocks direct alll the time is not the intent here ... just wanting to move those extras. Click on my name or go to:

http://www.snipercountry.net/forsale/Display_Message.asp?Message=0000006443.txt

Other stuff - Stateside folks:  if you don't have your heart in America - then get your ass out!

Even tho I don't post much - I visit when I can and try to keep an eye on snipercountry and make sure it's on the air. Been at it since - uh - well not sure (getting as old as Sarge and can't remember), but anyhow... you all take care out there.

take care hogs.... Semper Fi

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 16:01:39 (ZULU)

Ladies and Gents, the fact of the matter is that life is hard.  This is set in stone and will not change, no matter what you try and do.  The sooner you accept this, the sooner life will get easier(note: not easy)

We in the US have been very soft, for quite a while.  Now it's time to be hard again.  It's going to take lots of killing, and it's going to look like we're clubbing baby seals.  It's going to LOOK bad.  However, in the long term, it's going to save lives.  Not just American lives, which are the only lives I care about, but even enemy lives.  By killing a few people now, we won't have to kill a shitload of people later.  We will have to kill, that's just how it is.  The liberals and others living in fantasy land need to get it through their thick skulls that weakness only invites attack.  ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS!!!!!!  

Folks, those in the US live in the greatest nation on earth.  We are and will be assailed by all sides.  They're wrong, we are right.  Never believe anything else.  Loyalty is key.  All this meaningless shit about right and wrong might be worth something if there was some higher authority to appeal to, but there isn't.  God isn't going to get personally involved with this one.  We have to settle this one for ourselves.  Do you want the world to look like America, or look like Saudia Arabia or some other 3rd world shithole?  If you have not been to a 3rd world shithole, you don't get a vote because you don't know what you're voting on.  That's just a fact.  Sorry, but caring about people's feelings is a luxury I don't have anymore.  Just because a lot of people believe something stupid does not make it true.  The only problem with democracy is that it relies on educated people who make rational decisions, something which we increasingly lack.  God bless.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M    

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 16:06:20 (ZULU)

Thanks All

Pat

Pat <patncindy@iglide.net>
Idaho, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 16:56:13 (ZULU)

I thought the article author was a friend/acquaintence of Huggies and wondered about his skills. I understand now that it was forwarded to him from a fellow shooter. You both are gifted orators, but the comment was aimed at the Mark fellow.

Kevin,

At one of the .50 cal. matches last year a competitor kept his ammo boxes in a sealed cooler right next to him on the line. He added a cold pak from the med kit. It was 95 plus on the grass. His ammo was actually frosting as he loaded. You might want to try the military CCI primers. I've tried 'em in the M14 and they are reasonably consistant. Not as much as 210M's but close.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:02:46 (ZULU)

Nice to see ya poppin' in mang. As usual,, to the point and on target.

Have ya had a chance to fire that new 280AI yet?  I'm still kickin' around the 284win w/156 VLD's or a 7-300WSM with 180's.  I'm also curious as to what you think you'll get for usable barrel life with the AI....

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:04:25 (ZULU)

Sarge, E-mail inbound regarding old unit.

Medic Jim:  If it wasn't for the "old-timers" who share knowledge, most new guys would fall by the wayside, washout or never survive.  That is a fact in the real world, military service and life in general.  It is appreciated even when no feedback is received, and like you stated the rewards to the instructor are not always obvious.  But I can also understand the frustration of attempting to share knowledge with folks who constantly question the validity or always second guess the facts of someone else experience or results.  That happens a lot here.  Some query is necessary, to validate results.  But I am pretty sure those who are not contributing anymore are still here, just viewing and watching the show!

I thank every contributor for their contribution to this site.  I have learned much here, and I use this site as a reference daily!

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:11:05 (ZULU)

As to LE we can not do the research for you, legally that is.

Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:13:33 (ZULU)

Thanks.  I don't want to get any of my LEO friends in trouble so I won't even ask.  I am trying to follow-up on contacts in the town where he grew-up to find out about the "early years" but am struggling with this felony conviction thing. I believe it was in Phoenix AZ so do I just call the local PD for information or is there a web site with court information I can search in, or go to the DA department? I am sorry but I am completely and totally new to this.  Not something I really want to get good at.

Pat

Pat <patncindy@iglide.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:32:24 (ZULU)

Ken M. I have been to third werld shit holes and, well, I like them, some of them. They can be real fun ;)  I would not want the US of A to become that way. The American folks have not become soft. Well alot have but it is due to the Profs at our higher education facilities spouting off thier own hippie peace movement crap. And not having a mandatory 2 year hitch with the Big Green Fightin Machine. These folks can not have an infomed opinon cause they have not experience crap on thier own. They were told this and told that by a bunch of freakin hippie types. If I were king of America we would have no enemies and a lot more unoccupied territory due to my use of the Neutron bomb. Damn good thing I aint in charge, huh? Or is it?

I have been busy showing a dog so aint been burning powder. My boy won (Winners Dog) Saterday at the show in San Antonio. The judge was the same person who judged the sporting group at the most recent Westminster Show. I'm happy as a puppy with two peckers.

On the new WSM's I don't see the advantage to the 223 WSM but haven't seen the use of big bullets in it as of yet so can not real come to any conclussions on it. The 243 WSM may be the way to go for a playing stick. I guess time will tell if you bums would go buy one and wring it out for us poor bums we would have results faster.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:45:51 (ZULU)

           Great idea on the 'Kellogs' powder pack! It got me thinking. How about a bullet assortment also? Like ten or twenty rounds each of several bullets in .308, .223, .264, etc. This would be real handy, especially with bullets like Sierra's specialty line. I can't afford to spend over seventy bucks for a five hundred box just to see if the 77gr. SMK (for example) will shoot in one of my rifles!

Chris,

      A 7-.300WSM? Don't they already make the 7WSM? Or did I read your post wrong?

Chronographs,

            I have to give a strong second to the 35P. Tried the rest and had various problems, bought the Oehler, now have the best. May I suggest the optional 4ft. long mounting rail.

Media habits,

             FYI, I don't listen to Rush, read only the local newspaper, and never watch the news on network tv. All that crap makes me a candidate for an anger management class! And I can direct my anger all by my self, thank you;-)

Mike Miller,

            Very well said! I can't seem to get the point across without getting crude.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 17:52:11 (ZULU)

Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Fl, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 18:01:27 (ZULU)

Oh yes, I've had some primer problems with VARGET where air space is envolved. The mag primers are worth a try, that's what fixed mine.

Alan; your approach is appreciated by the folk like me. Crude is in style if that's what you call it.

Mike hows the knee?

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 18:11:35 (ZULU)

    I'm glad to see that you're posting again - seriously! You should understand my position, however, as to healthy debate vs. personal attacks.

    When someone posts here about a subject that (generic) you think is lacking in facts and/or logic, and you would like to correct him or question his information, by all means go at it! The problem that I have is when someone questions the right of another to post on any subject he wishes to.

    When you say that a particular subject doesn't belong on this site, and that the author should find a different site for his post you are inviting him to leave the site, which can only be done by the Council. This is why the first thing that comes into my mind when someone criticizes one of my off topic posts is to inform the complainant that I will continue to post whatever I choose, and that if they don't like it they can just scroll by, or they can leave the Roster if it gets too bad, but I, personally do not have the right or authority to ask, or demand, that they leave the site!

    If one were to go way back in the archives, that person might be very  surprised at the varied off topic content and the large amount of it. We've discussed and argued the merits of trucks and autos, food (and even how to spell it), women, wives, girlfriends, sisters, green Pintos and cookies, education, current events, movies and tv programs, whiskey, beer, foreign countries, jokes, tall tales, occupations, personal injuries and tradgedies, dogs, cats, sheep, politics, the Constitution, history, and how the chicks dig Sain.

    I question the motives of anyone who complains that any given post is off topic and shouldn't appear on the Roster, without complaining about every single post not having to do with the Sniper. Perhaps our complainant has an extra thin area of skin pertaining to that particular subject. Maybe that person wants to "test the water" by responding to a poster whom they think may be an easy mark. It's been repeated here many times that if you don't have a thick skin maybe you shouldn't be here. Know thine enemy should probably be right up there.

     As to taking it personal, I don't respond in kind. Throw a barb at me, and I'll probably return an SMK. Attempt to chastize me for not agreeing with you, without facts and good reason, and my response will not be very genteel, to say the least.

     And yes, I did take a previous post of yours as an attempt at censorship of Roster content. Go back and read it again if you have to.  The inhabitants of our world are not at all a shy bunch! They'll speak up when necessary.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 18:56:32 (ZULU)

you read me correctly, regarding the 7-300WSM.  My rational for necking down a 300WSM Parant case is two fold.  

1.  Norma now makes 300WSM brass, which is superior to the winchetser brass.

2.  The neck on the 7WSM case is shorter than the 300/270 vaiants.  In an attempt to have a long neck, allowing both additional case capacity AND more burn in the case (I said supposedly, didn't I??) I'll neck the 300WSM brass down and get both.

Now,, I HATE neck turning, but I figure a quick reame after I run it over a 283 mandrel will solve any doughnut problemos... so,, I can have the best of all worlds.  Get my chamber reamer spec'd out and built off a loaded round and walla....

Now,, All I need to do is decide whether or not I can stand the recoil of the 180.  If I'm not going to use 178 to 180gr Pills, I might as well take a couple hundred of the several hundred 6.5x284 cases I have with expanded pockets, Size the rim back down, reame the pockets and neck them up to 284 with a K&M.  Then, load a dumby and send it off to Dave kiff to work his majic.  Then I get NO neck turning,,, which is as Martha Stewert says, "is a good thing."  :))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 19:36:39 (ZULU)

One more thing. Do not recommend more education to me! Only because it pisses me off!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 19:37:06 (ZULU)

But why not strive to keep it civil?  "Don't f**k with me?"  Is that a response intended to stimulate good debate?  Tactfully sell you side of the story without the insults and you will be perceived the better man!

I think our earlier run-in was based on my poor wording of a sentence that read and interpreted differently than I meant. We discussed that.  Water under the bridge.

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 19:56:33 (ZULU)

I'm back and I've got a pound of Reloader 22, 1,000 Federal 215M primers and a 8# jug of Varget.  My plan is to load 51 grains of RL22 with my 139 grain Scenars lit by a 215M.  I sure hope this leads to a conclusion.  I hate load development.  It seems like such a waste of time and resources.  If I hit the lotto I'm going to give away my reloading gear and buy Black Hills by the pallet.

Ref: Ammunition in a Cooler

If I ever tried that ammo in a cooler trick Andy would punk-slap me and drag me to the car.  The boy was raised on the writings of Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith, the Holy Bible and the Ranger Handbook.  I've created a "Junior Lord of Discipline".  He's quick to say, "Dad, that's not practical." or "Jeeez Dad, that A2 stock is a friggin' canoe paddle."  I started to complain about the cold wet weather at Storm Mountain once and he scowled at me and said, "Heck Dad, this here is Ranger weather.  If it ain't rainin' you ain't trainin'."  I love that boy but he does wear on me at times. ;-)

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 20:12:10 (ZULU)

When an "expert's" sensibilities reach that point that they are simply too wonderful to tolerate the masses, they are on the downward slide into self absorbtion... I've seen it before.  When it involves a life or death skill, men die.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 20:20:52 (ZULU)

 Thanks for the update on the H4831SC. I had went through a couple of pound cans and most of an 8lb keg but it was all pretty consistant.

 I will need to buy another keg here shortly and will keep that in mind. I never had any trouble with mine as far as temp. went (So far anyway) but will watch it.

Kevin..

 Never had trouble with the Fed standard primers for my 6.5x284. I had a very low ES and SD with my loads. I know yotebait has had good luck with the magnum primers when he has run into problems so it may be worth a look too.

Alan & Rob..

 You guys play nice with one another!! A lot of us don't post a lot because theres not much shooting related things to talk about and some of us don't like to argue politics an religion. I think its just that time of year!! We shouldn't bite each other, were all on the same side here.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 20:34:28 (ZULU)

51.3gr RL22 was getting me 3015fps even with 215M's and 142SMK's in a 30" Border.  SD was 9 day one, and 14 day two.  MV dropped to 3000fps with a 30 degree temp drop.(day 2)

51.3 gives me 2915 in a 26" Rock barrel.  Same SD's, same drop in MV with temp.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 20:37:13 (ZULU)

Ken: Skin's plenty thick. I think that's why Brogers, Alan, and Undude/Mike want to turn it into a fireplace rug. <grin> Thanks for asking, though.

John: Yes, that article was forwarded to me, but no, not by a shooter. They got an earful when I sent them the link to SC, too!

MedicJim: In response to your comment that my opinions have been unconstructive...

Just so you all know, I feel bad about starting such a ruckus when I originally posted that link for the purposes of humor. Yes, I love getting people thinking, and yes, I love jerking chains, but that article was so over the top it struck me as a parody of far-left extremism. When people replied to it seriously, I replied seriously to them, badly underestimating the level of rancour. Mea culpa.

Yes, this is typically a fairly conservative site; I knew this when I signed on. I came here for information on shooting and stayed for the atmosphere of candor. You all know I disagree with many of you about the finer points of politics, international policy, sociology, etc. But I don't come in here with my mind closed to opinions, and while I usually continue to disagree with you after the dust settles, I do remember what you said and it does broaden my perspective. I hope that you will accord me the same respect. I might not be able to put "SF" at the end of my post, but I think my own time in the Middle East, and that I'm third generation sandwalker, albeit all civilians, may make up for the fact I can only put "FF/EMT" after my name.

My apologies for the discontent I have cast among you. While I will not stray from my own ideological path merely to meet your wishes, I will attempt to tread more gently. If for no other reason than the subsequent fallout detracts from the offerings of shooting wisdom.

Speaking of which, my wife inherited a Remington 721, but the last four or five inches of the barrel are bent. I'm sure someone out there has an opinion on the best replacement. Thoughts, anyone?

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 21:04:54 (ZULU)

"Speaking of which, my wife inherited a Remington 721, but the last four or five inches of the barrel are bent. I'm sure someone out there has an opinion on the best replacement. Thoughts, anyone?"

You're best bet is to convince her that she needs to send it to GA Precision for a "Rebuild", and get yourself a nice rifle made up....

simple huh...  ;)))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 21:16:08 (ZULU)

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 21:51:52 (ZULU)

I'm an active duty Navy Chief who is a frequent reader and seldom poster, but have gotten off my arse to cheer up an incredible trainining facillity. It has been my privilege and honor to have spent the last month at the BLACKWATER training center. The ability of their instructors to ramp up individuals into real time fight scenarios is amazing. They are both highly professional and dedicated to the task at hand. If anyone has even considered attending on of their training sessions I would say do not hesitate. They are a first rate facillity and treat all students on a person to person basis. I have witnessed members of most of the SPECOP/SOCOM groups, every government alphabet soup group, down to the novice in the weeks spent training their and no students were left to want. For that, I thank them and wish to publicly commend them for a "JOB WELL DONE". Their is a link to their website under hot links on this web page and it would behove all who are able to attend regardless of level of knowledge.

That said: on the matter of politics on this site. The hardest thing I have ever had to do was listen to someone bash America in the 17 yrs I have served. As long as they don't become active " burn the flag and I'll kick your ass then get locked up for violating your rights" it's sucks, but I provided your freedom along with every other service member/cop/firefighter/medic in this country. Personally however Undude said it best:

 WE OWE THE ARAB WORLD JACK SHIT!

Mike has always had a way with words.

Chief out

Chief <dwightc11@msn.com>
USN, Va, USA - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 22:46:39 (ZULU)

Then....... "John: Yes, that article was forwarded to me, but no, not by a shooter. They got an earful when I sent them the link to SC, too!"..........

Then......" Just so you all know, I feel bad about starting such a ruckus when I originally posted that link for the purposes of humor. Yes, I love getting people thinking, and yes, I love jerking chains, but that article was so over the top it struck me as a parody of far-left extremism. When people replied to it seriously, I replied seriously to them, badly underestimating the level of rancour."

After......"It's pretty well written, and the points it argues are not without merit. Though I know I'll catch H--- for posting it here."

   One just doesn't know whom to believe.....

At the risk of being crude, personal, and repetitous......

MORE HORSESHIT

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 23:01:41 (ZULU)

I wonder what else you got wrong?

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 23:55:37 (ZULU)

Dusty <dhamilton69@aol.com>
Monroe, LA, US of A - Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 23:59:44 (ZULU)

MedicJim: The difficulty with words is that each sees something different. I apologize if I misrepresented your comment in my reply. And to reply to another good example of that...

Mark: The person who sent me that link is not so avid as any of us here. Yes, they go out to the range every now and then, but not, I imagine, as any of us do. I would guess that we all have friends like this, who could be described for convenience as one thing, but on consideration don't merit the dedication implied by that description. You illustrate well the hazzards of generalities and labels, at my expense. That's fine. Whatever.

Yes, the article does have some points of merit, and yes, it is well written. It is also completely over the top and pretty funny. I should have known better than to complicate the issue by thinking that people might look at it and say: "yeah, but... not like that!". As for knowing I'd catch h---, 1) I knew some people would go balistic and probably lump me in with Morford, I was just not prepared for quite the level of that response; 2) I'd say I was pretty right on, wouldn't you?

I shouldn't bother with explanations, seeing as you --and undoubtedly others-- have already decided that I'm full of s---, but your points deserved addressing. View me as you like, I won't bother trying to hold an untenable position. None of us here is out to convert anyone, we're all just tossing our two cents in.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 00:18:59 (ZULU)

http://www.marstar.ca/ortpps.htm

Click on my name to jump to the above URL

rod regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 00:42:41 (ZULU)

Treehugger, please post at least your first or last name like the rest of us. It always makes me wonder about people's intentions when they hide behind a handle.

Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 00:47:13 (ZULU)

"I came here for information on shooting and stayed for the atmosphere of candor."

I don't get to monitor or post much lately, but from what I have read, I call BS.  You signed on with a log in name guaranteed to raise hackles with a bunch of hardheaded, conservative mil and LE types.  Then post stuff that is, to put it politely, crap.  This is not rocket science, I think you signed on to stir the pot.  I am not going to rush to judgement, just wanted to share my thoughts.  Treehugger you are NOT contributing to the cause.  At this point, you smell like a troll to me.  I would love to play but I am way too busy.  I may be back and involved in another coupkle of months.  In the meantime, any of you hawgs want to comment, please drop me an email.

Recent posts.....

Politics, well, there is a line there.  However, as shooters, we are not going to get away from it.  As many active duty and part time warriors as there are on this board, geopolitics is going to play a part, as is plain old war talk.  It would be nice if some of the old heads would get a little more tolerant and work back in with some shooting topics.  In three plus years of reading and occasional posting, I have about doubled my ability and knowledge.  The postings, subjects, and conversations that led to that are not being posted anymore.  

"Speaking of which, my wife inherited a Remington 721, but the last four or five inches of the barrel are bent. I'm sure someone out there has an opinion on the best replacement. Thoughts, anyone?"

Check the archives and links section before you ask your question, most answers to questions like "who makes the best barrel?" are in there.  That is not meant to discourage interaction. Put it this way.  You don't see me wasting my time trying to make friends at Democratic Underground.  If that makes any sense.

Just my humble opinion. Sorry for the non-shooting post.  Please return to you normal programming!

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 00:55:37 (ZULU)

Bolt: I see a lot of people here with nothing but handles, or names so tweaked to be convenient that they become little more than handles. And I did post my full name when I first started posting. A couple people even used that to do a websearch on me. Very polite, yes? Though they turned up not much more than the name of my boat, that felt suspiciously like intimidation --but I'll let that go. For those who missed it the first time, my offline name is Alexander Forbes. If anyone out there wants to know anything further, I'd prefer a direct question over a websearch. While I appreciate a sniper's ability to gather intelligence, on the web, from those I consider friendly (if ferocious) intellectual sparring partners, I revere respect a lot more than sneakiness.

Sorry Alan and Mark, I don't mean to get snitty, but that ticked me off a bit --on a personal rather than political level.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 01:15:23 (ZULU)

The next issue and this one chaps my hide is this feeling the US needs to pay for all the worlds food and welfare needs. I dont see it like that. I see helping someone up but not providing food for years to come. Sorry we cant afford to pay for everything and if that makes the Arab World hate us so be it.

This feeling of "I should be given a hand out" grabs me by the short hairs and pisses me off. This whole idea that money should be given to anyone that askes is crap of the stinky Afghanistan street variety.  The other day I am limping along, on my broken leg, knee torn up, waiting for surgery(I am 43 years old, been shot, cut and have so much metal in me I am surprized when the metal detector does not go off at the airport. Nick nammed the "Bionic Man" by my troops I could qualify for a handicapped parking permit and have bene offered three medical retirements) when this 18 yard old strapping youth approaches and begs for money. I just look at him and he pleads he needs help because he is disabled. The kid is 5'8" and 240lbs. He needs to work his fat ass off and make some money.  I say not today and he gets pissed off, yells a few choice words at me, like I owed it to him. Well lacking the desire to make a living also left him lacking the desire to take this old man on so he ran away. Giving to those that demand does not work. Botton line is we wont make friends with the Arab World by giving in.

On my Knee, I go in 19 March for the rebuild. Hopefully I can be up and running in a few months.

Dwight/Chief, good to hear from you. Hope all is well in your world. I am supposed to go to Pendelton and Coronado once healed. I will look you up, if you are not off defending us.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:13:57 (ZULU)

Tony

Tony Burkes <tburkes@sbcglobal.net>
Alvin, Tx, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 02:20:38 (ZULU)

As for the next issue that chaps your hide, I agree in general, and it is only the many admonitions I've had to shut the hell up that keep me from leaping into that detail-rich fray. Ohhhhh... but I sure want to! <grin>

Geoff: Whatever, but I will go read the archives.

And out of respect to Bolt...

Alex/Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 03:02:43 (ZULU)

3 shot group size ranged from .44 to 1.25 @ 100 yards - 300WM/200SMK/H1000 @73.3 - HE#$ it may be me ???

You can E-Mail off line - No attachments please :)

Any advice would be appreciated,

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 03:28:00 (ZULU)

     You were curious about the .338-'06, so here's what I can tell you - it's officially a factory round, no longer strictly a wildcat. Weatherby chambers for it, and it's manufactured under the name of .338-'06 A-Square.

     As you're probably aware, I guide hunters for a good friend who is a rancher and outfitter (here in Colorado) during the big game seasons. Last season an old client, who has become a friend, showed up in camp with one of those new Weatherby's. I couldn't think of a better Elk rifle, as long as the hunter isn't trying to make like a Doc King;-) It really likes the 210gr. NP for everything. A 250gr. bullet will work when pushing Elk out of the black timber, but it's a bit too slow to get a flat trajectory for the longer shots. And don't even consider any of the 300's. Not enough powder capacity, IMHO. Since last season, I've spoken with a few other guides and hunters who share this opinion. This is one that I'd like to have for myself, but I certainly don't NEED it - so many rifles, os little time and money!

BearMan,

       Have you gone back to your old dies and old methods to see if the problem disappears? I've been preaching here for a long time that one should never make more than one change at a time, or you wind up chasing your tail. Try setting your OAL your old way. Any improvement? Use your old RCBS neck dies. Any improvement? Be methodical and you just might find your answer.

        You asked about how often to clean a rifle. Lots of variables here! A rifle for what type of shooting? If it's a sniper the general consensus is to clean all of the way after every shooting session, provided the barrel is fully broken in and of sniper quality. We are looking for your first shot from a clean cold barrel (called a CBS) to land in the middle of your first five shot one hundred yard group, and that group be no larger than 1/2 MOA. No good-golly-miss Moly crap, and no oil or 'magic' potions left in the bore after cleanup. Especially in a callout rifle, where you certainly won't get time to swab out the bore if you've gotta go.

         Many shooters don't know what a really clean bore is. Simply stated, you don't want ANY blue or green patches coming out of the bore after you get the powder fouling gone. Now is the time to reach for the Archives to get a load of all the different cleaning methods being bandied about.

HTH,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 05:28:08 (ZULU)

Pat; I' wonder if you have tried this new stuff in the .260 or perhaps the 6.5X284? It might have some possibities as to elimination of the problems that Kevin and on occasion I  have reported.

Hugger Alex; Snipers are described as Sneakers on occasion. Anyone who enters here should expect to be under at least 10 power magnification. (we don't like being snuck up on!). I don't speak for everyone but you might have noticed that I have not asked you to leave or shut up with your opinion. Even if I were presumeing to be in the position to do so, it's against my politics because even though I don't let on... I did read that consitution thing. And the archives will tell you I've written part of the book on Government discention. Some of the guys here won't even swap the time of day with me because of it.  There are occasional outbursts of honesty here among those not affected by survival....and in the old poker tradition most losers cry "deal the damn cards!when things don't go their way!" seems to surface at times.  Some readers and posters just genuinely don't like politics or are prohibited by their jobs or positions in life and/or seem to lack the computer skills to just sift through the political threads and find the "good stuff". It's not always homophobia.

    Politics does change; unlike the best twist rate for the .308 rifle thus making it more likely to take on different phases. In general if they don't like what you're saying they cry "deal the damn cards!"  If they do it's "ditto man, way to go!" When you result to insulting a man's perceived intellegence or recommend his "continued education" will bring him around to your thinking, you're crossing a line toward character attack that might get you invited out back. Be careful of your tactics and don't underestimate the ability of those time worn participants to tolerate your insults, and save it for somewhere safer like an Irish Bar on the Queen's birthday. I know you didn't mean to but........

See what you've done... Pete L. is gonna wake up in the morning with a big headache, probably wreck his Jeep again by running over some Renault and kill some poor hog with three .45 caliber slugs "just to watch him die". He'll have nightmares about Russians with hammers and nails invading his tree stand and we'll have several months of therapy to perform to get him back to normal. And never mind that George Patton wanted to go on to Moscow.

 Oh yeah, cut the damn barrel off that 721 recrown it and see how it shoots. It might fit your wife better assuming your wife is female and smaller in stature than Mike Miller. You didn't say what caliber it is? Are you still beating your wife by the way?

This is a cruel place? And I'm a sadistic bastard!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 05:29:20 (ZULU)

Bearman,what rifle are you using and how much work has it done?They differ,I have a 96 swede wich needs cleaning after around 40 shots and a sabage 223 wich Ive put 60 odd through while spotlighting and still headshoot things regularly.Start looking for problems in order of the easiest/cheapest to fix.

On politics,I listen and learn,and try to conceal my stupidity by silence but you guys make (mostly) good points,inform me about what real yanks are thinkin as opposed to what cnn says you are,and you entertain better than tv,so keep goin.Lito said,"this is the site, the only site",he's normally right

Edited:Bill I generally agree with you and often laugh loudly when I read your stuff,"are you still beating your wife?" bloody hell I hope you know this bloke.rotflmao.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 05:29:46 (ZULU)

The old boy we where chatting with last night had some stories, not that he was keen to tell,and you could see just by looking at him that none of it was bull, but he figures he needs to get em off his chest whilst he still can, is sick of feeling as if he did something wrong, sick of the shame,doesn't want to take that with him to his grave and figured me an my mate where good enough to be told. The whole world should be told.

Who asked about Hensold, they are linked to Zeiss.

Looking forward to the IWA at the weekend, JR you will fall in love with weizen beer, you will have cravings for it, just ask Chris..he still does.

right enough.. i've got to look after our little 'un she's got the shits,and can't go to kindergarten, best find my gas mask..

Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 07:09:55 (ZULU)

I heard a rumor that the bird that collected the 27 mil. on shieki is moving to England and buyin a castle. New name and all. Glad it's youse guys and not here, for his sake, of course.

Kevin,

Even Rangers have to keep their powder dry.:)) I was tryin to correlate what someone said about preheating your ammo to test it. If you ever see me with a cooler on the firing line, you should put down your weapon and join me cause I'm done shootin. Tell Andy it's not nice to pick on the elderly or infirm.

Mark S.

Persactly!! Is Lake Cormorant(sp) a good bass lake? I'm boycotting FL.(it's a long story) for spring prespawn bass. I'm thinkin about somethin new. As it's closer than Lake Fork, and smaller, it might be a nice week. Any ranges over 600 yd.? if the fish ain't bitin? Hit me offline.

Undude,

Are they gonna do it arthroscopically or slice one or both side? If they slice ya it'll be a 60 or 90 day or two. If they do it artho you might be up and around in a week. Good luck either way.

John

Somedays I thinks we need spelchek!

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 11:58:24 (ZULU)

I have one more question, then I'll go back into the shadows:

Anyone know if the Stony Point target knobs will work with a Loopy Vari-X II ?  I called SWFA as well as Brownells and couldn't get  anything more definitive than "probably" or "they should".  The website says they work with  any Leupold, but since the Vari-X III has 1/4 minute clicks, and a Vari-X II has 1/2 minute with no clicks, it seems unlikely it would work on both.  Thanks in advance.

JB

John Bechtell <ajbechtell@yahoo.com>
historic Gettysburg, PA, - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 13:42:15 (ZULU)

Pete; Glad your spirits are better today and your head don't hurt .

I'm sure your satisfaction of your free expression is exceeded only by our forgiveness.

Forgive my amusement, but were it not for my newly discovered diabetes and the few thousand miles, I would probably have happily joined you last night.

All this stuff is really quite entertaining when you get right down to it. This site gets a little boring at times. After all.....just so many times you can adjust your trigger, torque your stock, argue the best caliber for whatever Leupold you put on the barrel  in a turbulent world before the subjects we deal with every day will find their way into the conversation.

Treehugger; we'd probably just buy you a beer and help you cut that barrel off to a decent length if we were in proximity. Those barrels were too damn long anyway.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 13:43:34 (ZULU)

The Stoney Point knobs work just fine on Vari-X II's.  Just follow the instructions that come with them.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 14:01:56 (ZULU)

Please go back and read all of my posts on the subject.  If you do you will see that the post of March 11 @ 00:28:27 opened with the sentences "Stop with the labels. Their use greatly diminishes any message you hope to impart."  The key words are "labels" and "diminishes" .  Alen, your post of March 10 @ 20:47:37 was a perfectly appropriate, and by the way, very informative expression of your point of veiw up to the point that you threw in the labels- LIBERALS,LEFTISTS, SOCIALISTS, CRYBABIES, AND OTHER SELF-HATING RESIDENTS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY.  Your comments are "diminished" at that point because the "labels" at their most base level are divisive and cannote the sentiment that if the labeled group of people would shut up, go away, or otherwise cease to be, you and yours could exist in a perfect world.  More broadly the labels carry with them the unmistakable implication that the labeled group is some how less worthy of calling themselves Americans, are less able to show patriotism, are less able to love their country, are less able or willing to serve this country with both honor and distinction. In the end it becomes a Blame game.  

As I stated in an earlier post, the world is way too complex and diverse to be sorted out on the basis of a mere handfull of catchy labels.  Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal ,Black , White, Hispanic- pick your favorite label for the list- they all make a contribution to making this country great.  Diversity was  and remains a principal tenet of why America exists at all.  No single group has the market cornered on doing what's right  or best for the country.  Over time the diversity creates balance.

That's it. I'm done . You guys have fun.

Rod            

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 14:24:46 (ZULU)

When shooting my .308 out past 700 yards, I noticed that when trace can be seen, it appears the bullet is falling from the sky, not traveling away from the shooter as one might expect...this because the falling part is easier to view from the shooting position.  The farther out that 175 gr sierra flys, the steeper it's approach to my target, making it increasingly less likely that my poor range estimations will fall within the acceptable margin of error to develop the desired "ringing of steel".

If I were king, and declared that the king's standard for long range rifle fire was the ability to hit a 20" x 20" steel target at 800 yards with a .308 rifle firing a 175 gr sierra HPBT at 2700 fps MV, in zero wind... we would probably be able to describe any other competing rifle /projectile / MV mix in relation to the king's standard.

If I wanted to know exactly how far out a shooter with the "standard skill level" could hit "the standard target" with the "standard level of precision" with the new 6.5 x 284 or .338 Laupa... a skilled physics guru could probably develop a formula which ignored wind and gave a distance at which similar approach angles would be seen in say a standard .338 laupa round... This comparative standard might be very useful in evaluating competitive rounds.  You could probably do the same in comparing wind estimation at any given wind speed and direction...

I realize there are several ways to break down this approach, as I'm sure a certain subset of the population predisposed to suck the blood from everything will no doubt do... what I'm thinking here is that such a standard, developed by civilian shooters, might some day be employed to do a fair and impartial comparison of long range shooting solutions, to ultimately give those that would put themselves in harms way the best tool for the job...based on fact.

Heck, in the short term, we could handicap the Allegheny shoot and give the .308 shooters a fair chance....

Where is CDC when you need him...

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 14:55:35 (ZULU)

  I have heard good things about BenchMark. What is the burn rate compared to Varget?? I was thinking it was on the faster side?? Have you played with it much?? If so let me know some of your results. Thanks!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 14:58:10 (ZULU)

Guys, on another site, The Sniper's Hide, I've had the opportunity to publish some of my thoughts on the subject.  I'd like to invite all of you to stop by, read my stuff if you will and give me your feed back.  Be gentle. http://www.snipershide.com/guide/guide_index.html

Ref: Handicapping .308

Jim, I think it's doable....let me give it some thought and I'll get back to you.....

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 15:34:02 (ZULU)

Please, everyone, use your brain and do not duplicate my load in your gun without working up to it carefully.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 15:35:08 (ZULU)

A generous king you are to permit a 2.5 MOA accuracy standard!

You still remember how to tie that special knot you learned at ASC #1?

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
Upstate, SC, US of A - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 15:59:20 (ZULU)

2.5 MOA left to right, but how much deviation up or down causes a miss... it decreases as you move out yonder...

You see, I am a talented king, I give people the impression of being generous....while actually giving much less.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 16:15:53 (ZULU)

You were spared the cruelest manifestation of this rope trick by being prompted to hold it in your hand.

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 16:25:29 (ZULU)

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 16:43:54 (ZULU)

Alan posted his positive notes on the .338-06. I agree. I see a number of them here in the Pacific Northwest. Owner's are very positive about their attributes.

A number of years back I had custom rifle built, but went to a different caliber...the .35 Whelan Improved. I get 2,600 FPS out of it's 23" Krieger barrel with a Nosler 250 grain partiction. Muzzle thump is on the heels of the .375 Mag. Recoil is heavy, but manageable. English walnut stock, rust blue, and Luppie 1.75 X 5 top it off. Superb for deer, bear, or elk! OH, and probably hawgs, too, Pete.

I selected the .35 Whelan over the .338-06 for nostolgia reasons and it's ability to handle the heavies a bit better. Can go all the way to 300 grain bullets, but damn, who needs to or wants to...?

Off to work...flu going around and I'bve been down for several days(damn, my days off). Back to it.

Chris, will try to post some pictures of the Mexican Mauser/Mannlicher when it is stocked. Steve is doing the wood now. You're gonna want one.

Pete, on hangovers...I don't do that no more...got tired of waking up with strange women, feeling cheap and used...;-)

Waiting patiently for my Gardner .338 Lapua...

My best to all.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 17:10:51 (ZULU)

WOW!!!  You need to write a book containing this stuff.  IMHO it's very well written and easy to read.  Even an old varmint like me can understand it.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 17:14:58 (ZULU)

    I'm not posting to have the last word, believe me. Your last post probably called attention to the basic differences in our belief systems better than I could.

    You see, I LIKE labels. As in seperating the wheat from the chaff. There is right and wrong, black and white, truth and lies, good and bad, patriot or traitor, honest or dishonest, etc., etc., etc. With me or against me? America - love it or leave it! All of these lables help dim bulbs like me to understand exactly how someone stands on a given issue. I don't do a good job distinguishing different shades of gray. There is no room in my life for any other way.

    I believe in our First Ammendment rights, including my right to call bullshit by its real name, and you're right to tell me that you think that I'm wrong (or nuts). But just because I excersize my right to express my opinion doesn't allow you to attempt to censor me. This time, I ask you to go back to YOUR post, where you ask me to take my opinions to another site!

     As for diversity, I'll try not to let you get me really started. The short form is that the 'D' word is the worst thing that has happened to our country in recent years. People that hyphenate their names in order to call attention to their ethnicity are culturally divisive and perhaps should return to the land of their origin so that they could drop the friggen hyphen. What ever happened to the great melting pot? Great nations have fallen because of taking in foreign cultures who have refused to assimilate. And talk about labels, exactly what do you think these people are using to further divide this country? We will probably never be conquered from the outside, but may very well be destroyed by 'diverse' forces from within!

    It's obvious that you and I do not even inhabit the same country, so this is the last of it that you'll hear from me on the subject.

Kumbaya,

           ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 17:26:37 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 17:55:37 (ZULU)

"Plain speak is easily understood"

Political correctness has hamstrung our nation into a dismal abyss of misunderstanding and timidity of communication.

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 18:04:35 (ZULU)

I don't think that handicapping is the answer for shooting.  We are not trying to see who gets to the finish line first we are trying to see who is the better shot.  If it is thought that one caliber has an advantage over another caliber then maybe there needs to be different classes to compete in.  Something like standard or traditional calibers (.308, ?) and magnum or high velocity (.300 WM, 6.5x284, etc.).  Maybe the competition needs to be modified so that scoring shots would only be taken in the normal operating range for the weapon used and anything further would be used for tie breakers only.

Just a thought,

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 19:01:16 (ZULU)

Please let's not turn this into the NHRA. We don't need the gamesmanship that big money and factory teams bring, but we also do not want an Anschutz Olympic .22RF that puts all of 'em in .11" at 50yds. to take the whole ball of wax!

If a .300 Magnum, a Lapooie, or something of the sort is gonna take the 1K or 1200yd. event, then it's just supposed to be that way.

Just my opinion,

                ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 19:43:46 (ZULU)

My poor communication..sorry.

In the real world, the guy shot first dies, the guy who shot him wins. When Kevin Mussack shows up with his super duper magnum and dials in a couple of clicks for elevation and a click for that 20 MPH wind and dings that steel at 1000 yards, he may have a slight advantage over the .308 which requires a few more clicks.  I was actually looking for a METRIC to compare these various calibers to determine where each sits in the scheme of things. In the long run, I think that might be a GOOD THING, especially for our military.

Now the humor -

All this so we can talk over the fire on how much extra skill it took me to win after all the shooting is done....I just don't want the boys being bored.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 19:46:11 (ZULU)

Wife is perfectly capable of handling her own. She's still tremendously pleased that the first dent she put in the new car was from the muzzle blast of the 300WM she benched on the car's roof. She later went out with the Hoppes to make sure the crud didn't screw up the car's paint. Beat my wife? Only in competition, and then only if I'm having a good day.

And yeah, I do take someone's comment and say "what did you mean by that...?" Guilty as charged. I think too much. Our emails said the rest.

Ref Handicapping: Call the range and let people bring what they want. If they don't pick the best round, they'll find out for themselves. Education by experience.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:27:25 (ZULU)

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:31:03 (ZULU)

"Plain speak is easily understood" unless you've down 2 bottles of spanish red and a bottle of port wine..  my fingers wouldn't type what my brain was desperately trying to tell em too.. no hangover.. cool..

Wes,i like that 35 whelan, we very seldom see it here, its ballistic twin the 9.3x62 is more popular.

Guys what the hell is going on at Brownells, i ordered a load of stuff over six months ago, it never came despite bieng paid for, after several phone calls i finaly got em to re send the order, i got it today and half the shit is missing, missing items include, 1 starlight case, 2 pots marine tex, a damn spare firing pin and some other stuff,, ive never been messed around by them before...

Right folks, time to get off to the airport and pick up Jon B, i hope he left his sheep at home...

Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:34:20 (ZULU)

 The only advantage that one has over the other is in the wind. You can both dial in the elevation if your using lazer range finders. If your not and you have to mil the targets then the flatter shooting ones will have an edge. Because you will have less  margin of error with a flatter shooting rifle, same as with the wind.

 It all boils down to the man behind the gun. (As we have said so many times before). I have a 6.5x284 and shot it in competition against 308s and have had my ass handed to me by a better shooter with a 308. Would I choose a 6.5 over a 308 damn right!! It makes me feel better thinking I have an advantage!!(HA)

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:43:40 (ZULU)

How much better is a 6.5 x 284 over a 308.  How about a .260, or a .338 laupa....can you see what I'm getting at?  Anecdotal doesn't cut it when you are trying to justify a big capital expenditure to a police department or military agency....I want to start something here that will help these guys out.

Oh, and if I wiggle just a bit up and down because I've been sitting in a wet ditch for an hour... I know you aren't suggesting that the .308 is as tolerant as the flatter shooting 6.5 when I just HAVE to hit the target at 800 yards... that little wiggle will be amplified much more by the .308...and that IS a factor impacting success...

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:53:18 (ZULU)

Huggie; My limited experience given normal powder loads indicates you would loose about 35 to 50 fps in the 30-06. I've read that 100 fps is about right but the bore size makes a big difference as to how much you loose. Were that a 22-250 it would be around 100 or more.

You did a good job with the wife beating question. I don't think even  Bill Clinton could answer that one right and he's pretty clever about trick questions.

Kevin; I have to compliment you on your article and work up there but I'd get a hair cut if I were you. I hate to dicipline you soldier but this seems to be the week for it. I'm beginning to catch on... even for a hillbilly like me it not so hard. I can see your serious about what you do. That's admirable.

Ron, somebody e-mailed me that your a pretty alright dude. I respect his opinion totally and we'll go from there. Don't assume the same about me though. I really am a sadistic bastard. I deliver sucker punches below the belt.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 20:57:13 (ZULU)

How many French does it take to defend Paris?

Nobody knows, it's never been attempted.

Pete L

Press S&B on the alleged 3-12 x42 PM type scope when you're at the show. I couldn't afford one right now anyway, but I can dream.....

Kevin

was it you who had the Gen II reticle fitted to your variable LR scope? Any comments on optical quality afterwards. I'm about to ship mine to be done and I want some reassurance. I'm sure it'll be fine or Premier wouldn't put their name to it, but it doesn't hurt to ask. I'm just waiting for customs to send me the right forms so I don't get clobbered for import duty and VAT when it comes back again.

Play nice boys.

Mark D

mark dougan <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 21:30:09 (ZULU)

It is supposed to burn just a little faster I think like you say. I'm gonna try a keg of it. It takes as little less for the same speed. I think It probably is a version of VARGET sliced up a little but the claim is that it is less temp sensitive. So far it's hard to tell the difference at 500, 100 etc.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 21:59:37 (ZULU)

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 22:07:11 (ZULU)

Nope.  A wiggle is a wiggle. As I see it, if you move your hold by 1 MOA, your POI is gonna move by 1 MOA.  Where the faster(faster=flatter) rounds make a difference is in range estimation error, and wind speed estimation error.  The slower round is dropping faster (more drop per yard) at the target, so the round is at the kill zone height for a shorter distance.  The wind's effect on the faster bullet is less.  So's the effect of a wind estimation error.  At least, to a first approximation for relatively flat shots.

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 22:15:47 (ZULU)

Families and units are being advised not to give out the address to their military members overseas dues to concerns of terrorists or whackos using the US Mail to spread anthrax or bombs or some such crap.

Some units are advising troops to shitcan packages or letter from people they don't personally know, once they are in theater.

If you want to get something to the troops, find a deployed unit, find their family support group and ask them what you can do to help and what their troops need.  Buy the stuff they ask, give it to them with some $$ for postage and let them send it.

Thats what I got in my briefing a few weeks ago and I've heard it several time since.

~ ~ ~

To who ever said they didnt like it when people dont post at least their first or last name on the roster;

Hello.... This is an open source on the internet.  Anyone can read it, note your email and name and google or search engine the rest if they are determined enough.  

If you have a need to know who I am or vice-versa then we can exchange emails and establish credibility with each other and go from there.

Think about all the virus attacks we've been getting.  I use this email address primarily for this site and really very little else.  I still get about 15-20 virus attacks a week with emails or addresses that appear to be from legitimate Roster Hogs.  I get about 1 or 2 a week on my other email account.

Keep this in mind... Once your info is on the net...  It NEVER, ever goes away.  Its archived, cached and cross-referenced.

In that regard, it would be beneficial to have some kind of blind link that a person who is not a "registered" user could click on to send a short note to a registered hog, or something like that to limit these virus attacks.  Everyone who visits does not need our emails, just those with credible business.

Thats my two bits.

Murphy - Did you get my email?

~DA

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 22:20:46 (ZULU)

 BMB Mike said just what I said. I agree with the wiggle is a wiggle no matter the caliber. I was "Trying" to say that when shooting a "Known" range I think the 308 in a no wind condition will shoot with the 6.5x284 or the magnums. If you know the range, know your gun, dial it and dump it.

 Howerver if your miling the range and you "Don't" know the exact range then the flatter shooting rifles "Will" be an advantage. The thing that lito' worked out on the miling error really showed this to be true esp at longer ranges.

 This is also true when your fighting a wind. I used to joke that once I went to the 6.5s my wind calls really improved. Its because I can be a little sloppy on my call and still hit the target because the higher BC is less affected by the wind.

 My true belief is that what seperates the winners from the loosers is not the range but the wind. With the range finders we have to day wind is the big killer and always will be.

 Once again it boils down to the old boy pulling the trigger. My daddy used to say, "Beware of the man with one gun". I agree though that the use of the other calibers for departments is not justified. I do think the military would see a gain with the 6.5s or the heavy 6MMs with the 1-8 twists.

  I am really looking at the 6mmx250 on a 22-250 case with a 1-8 twist. This round pushes a 105gr bullet to 3000fps and falls between the 260 and the 6.5x284 for wind and drop. It is good for a good 4000rds in highpower shooting so should make a great tactical rifle and has nil recoil. I can not see a down side to this round so far.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 22:37:20 (ZULU)

If you want to do some good with folks in the field, contact the American red cross. You can pretty much send stuff via them to the station chief at whatever deployed location and IT WILL GET THERE!

Whatever you do send though, be prepared to receive thankyou notes from the troops. I've been deployed so many times it's not funny! The Red Cross always had stuff we needed just in he nick of time. If you go about it right you can garner some much needed charity PR for your local law enforcement/fire/medical responders and get an entire community involved (to include school kids).

Thanks

FESTUS

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage , AK, USA - Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 23:00:23 (ZULU)

In a long range rifle match where the distances are unknown, the wind is a factor and all other things are equal a 6.5x.284 will prevail over a .308 Win (slightly).

Example:

20”x 20” target

750 yards

10 mph full value wind

1.25 moa elevation error will result in a miss.

The 6.5 user needs to determine the range to +/-40 yds (+/-5%)

The .308 user needs to determine the range to +/-25 yds (+/-3%)

1.25 moa windage error will result in a miss.

The 6.5 user needs to determine the wind +/-3 mph (+/-30%)

The .308 user needs to determine the wind +/-2mph (+/-20%)

By the looks of it the 6.5x.284 has the advantage but not a big one.

The real advantage will come from my Kestrel 4000 weather meter, my 20X Gen II reticle and my PDA.  I’m hoping the whole will be greater than the sum of the parts.  I think its called synergy.

The numbers get a little more impressive past the 750 yard mark.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 00:39:47 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:02:51 (ZULU)

I finally saw one of those elusive 6-22/250's.  A guy is using one in a match rifle.  It hits the paper at 1K like a hot 6.5x284.  VERY loud.  He shot a 187 with it his first time out.  Don't know of the actual capability, but it's a small round.  Looks like a dwarf next to the 284 case.  

I'll be watching him and his performance over the season and keep you up on it.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K mathc at AEDC, March 16th. , WCRC's HSTM 3 gun tactical match has been rescheduled for May 10,11. If you're not locked down due to Mothersday,, come on out and shoot., Get with me for details and drive directions. - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:09:04 (ZULU)

I'd like to hear your thoughts on those options.  Does anyone have experience with any of these models?  If you were me, where would you spend your money.

Thanks.

corbett mortensen <rexhavoc3@cox.net>
omaha, ne, usa - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:22:31 (ZULU)

   I have a Savage 10FP .308 and I really like it. And yes, barrels are easier to change.

   One of my buddies has a Savage left hand and it is made just as well my right handed rifle.

   The good thing about Savages is that the money saved on the rifle can go towards a good scope. You just can't skimp on the optics.

LATER

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:44:55 (ZULU)

Haven't done anything with the 280 AI yet, busy selling organs to afford the SC rifle.  Just parted with some stuff and so I should have that rifle on the way soon.  Busy as Hell getting the platoon ready.  SOP's, last minute gear issues, personel issues, the usual.  Still stuck in CONUS, but things are coming down the pipe hot and heavy.  Wish CMC would get this unit to AD so I can whip on some intensive training.  As it stands we might skip work up.  Don't know whether they are confident in the unit, or just stupid.  IMO any work up time is good.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:53:24 (ZULU)

I gots a question about interstate shipping of rifles.  I recently sold my PSS via an online transaction.  I thought that as long as it was SENT to an FFL it was kosher.  The buyer (in MN) tells me (in MD)his FFL told him that it had to be FROM an FFL TO an FFL.  I thought that was for handguns NOT rifles.  Now I've bought three of four rifles online now and I always just sent 'em a signed copy of my local dealers' FFL and a couple days later, there it was.  I called the gents at GA Precision and they said "as long as it's too an FFL you're fine".  I checked the ATF's website FAQ's and it just said that they must be shipped to an FFL.  Obviously I don't want to break any rules, so who's right?

Confused,

Rich S

RichS. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 03:55:31 (ZULU)

Like V&T codes (vehicle & traffic), gun laws vary from state to state, but as far as I have seen (and done) from person to FFL is cool, so long as the FFL is doing the transfer paperwork properly. With the boom always hanging over their head from the BATF, you can't blame dealers to have the extra added security. And from all the dealers I have X-frd thru, going from FFL to FFL is the best and "proper" way to do it, but it's a pain to do it that way, and the other way is just fine.

Kevin (Andy's dad)

Great ariticle, but who's that ornery lookin' cuss in the picture? Where didya get that little sock thingie for the butt stock? Mine is an old OD sock filled with sand with a knot tied in it. Good stuff.

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
P-cola, Fl, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 04:11:45 (ZULU)

Done it myself and did the same "checks".

TOO an FFL is fine.

You are also correct on the pistola swap.

Was gonna shoot my new VS this weekend but "they" say it's gonna pour cats and doggies.  (OOOPS!  I meant DOGS!)

heehee

Speakin' o' kitties, where in the hell is the Great Kittywhacker!?

Semper-Fi to ALL!

Spud

Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 04:18:16 (ZULU)

Shipping to FFL, is the correct way......

Rifle's may be shipped to FFL Holders, DIRECTLY from an individual.

Dos Zap

Glockamolie <Glockamolie@aol.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 04:20:48 (ZULU)

Dennis; I think he's taking a little time off from the goings on here. Maybe wondering just why he even messes with it. It's crossed all our minds I'd venture to guess. He's hard to get used to not being around.  There are many missing pieces to the puzzle that is Sniper Country of late. Some just get burned out with the endless circle of answering the same questions over and over. It's like a "help desk" around here for people in the know like the Lito. Some just can't endure the ongoing conflicts and personality clashes that constantly tug at you here. Sometimes the burden of life and SC get too much when combined....and others use it for therapy. Meee I just like pickin on people.

"Nurse bring my medicine now please!"

Corbett; I have used and adjusted all three Savage triggers along with many Remingtons and Winchesters. The new one is much safer and easily adjusted. The other 2 are not. It's the one with the Glock type device on the front. Savage Rifles shoot. They can be Bedded or not when they have the pillars in the stock as the later ones do. The stock's could use some improvement but they really don't hamper the shooting at all. It's a serious rifle any way you look at it.

The prices are about $400 bucks wholesale for a hvy bbl .308 with the new trigger and that's outstanding for what you get. The new trigger is a beginner's dream to shoot and adjust.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 05:01:26 (ZULU)

    Hope that things get better for you soon. I've been ordering from Brownells for years with no trouble. Just received two orders in Feb. as a matter of fact. I suspect that something bad is going on when your package leaves CONUS. Write or e-mail Brownells and speak to a manager. There may be alternate shipping methods.

Pat,

    I think that we've had this same conversation a couple of years ago;-) Please 'splain to me just how somebodys getting 3000fps with a 105gr bullet out of a 6mmX250 without going way overpressure. It's real hard to do with a .243W! Are these guys using single shots so they don't have to go lookin' in the magazine for their primers?

    I have to agree with Ken M. on this one. I wonder if they are REALLY cronographing 3000 with this load, and what's the case life? Maybe I'm just an old sceptic, but this performance seems too good to be true. It just sounds like a whole lot of sumthin' for nothin'. Remember what Jerry Rice posted about this combination?

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 05:57:12 (ZULU)

.308 vs 6.5 X .284. Nice comments Kevin and all. I'm a big proponent and fan of BOTH. Frankly, for most of my shooting I reach for my .308. They do the job nicely. No fuss, no muss, no bother.

Having said that, I shoot slightly tighter groups with the 6.5 X .284 at 600. Also, the 6.5 requires half the windage my .308 with 175's use. This is not a down side, but merely points out what we drill to our members. Know your equipment, it's capabilities, and practice, practice, practice.

For beyond 750 I'll take the 6.5 X .284...

You're getting into another realm with the .300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua's.

6MM/250. Not enough boiler room to make it competitive with the 6.5 X .284. I'll take the 142 grain Sierra over the 107 A-Max any day. Silly me, but I like to put SOME bullet weight on target. Unless we are just talking punching paper...;-)

All for now. Home from work and need to get some sleep. Pete, you might try that, too...

Am familiar with the 9.3 X 62. GREAT round!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 07:13:08 (ZULU)

The company I work for, Surgical Shooting, Inc is looking for a Force Protection/Anti-Terrorism instructor to work here in Japan.

If interested visit the company web site at

www.surgicalshooting.com

or email me at goochkw@riflemen.net

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 07:37:45 (ZULU)

As for my slicker'n'Willy reply, thanks... I think...

DA: Agreed on anonymity measures. I'm sick of Nigerians telling me that, for a modest fee, I can claim my long-lost inheritance. Oh, and incoming email, no attachments.

Anyone feel like telling me how to get accuracy + speed out of a sabot .308, or should I go dig through the archives?

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 08:58:23 (ZULU)

Very good round for longrange shooting. A little more oomph than the 6mm Norma BR.

The best thing with the 6-250 is this: "imp" the case a litle bit, new barrels and mags for the H&K G3 and M14 and you have a "perfect" autorifle. It can also easily be made to work in a MG42/MG3, new barrel, feedingtray and tuned "accelerator"/action. Have made a MG34 and a MG42 shoot 6.5x55 in this way several years ago. I'm sure the same can be done to a FN MAG.

Wes: A gunsmith I know converted a Browning 1919 to shoot 9,3x62. It worked great. Serious stoppingpower in a "compact" package. Why they didn't do this in WW2 for aircraftguns is beond anyone who could see it in action. 280gr .366 bullet at 2500fps. Think "multipurpose" bullets for this one...  Mv is the same as the british 303-guns.

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 10:05:28 (ZULU)

Wow! I never new. Truly a gifted writer. Carry on, sir,

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 11:39:46 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 11:47:00 (ZULU)

I think that this is where the confusion comes in.  As a private person you can legally ship a gun to the manufacture or shop (FFL) for repair and supposedly they are able to ship it directly back to you.  If you're travelling somewhere and want to ship the firearm ahead of time you can ship a firearm to yourself anywhere.  The person on the receiving end is not supposed to open the package because it is addressed to you, no FFL required at all!

Transfer (sale) of firearms is another matter.  There are signatures required on paperwork that cannot be obtained unless it goes from FFL to FFL.  In California you used to be able to do a private persons sale without going through a FFL hold, as long as you knew the other person but not any longer.  Seems California found another way to screw with us and get free money (transfer fee) in the process.

Now, even if you have that straight in your heads you have to get past the shippers and their interpretation of the rules plus any of their own that they wish to throw in.

As the others have said, I have not had any problems going from FFL to FFL.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 14:31:21 (ZULU)

Huggie; I'd doubt you would lose that much but anyhow, why not cut it and try. You don't have anything to loose. Just chop it off round it off and maybe counter sink just a couple silly millimeters and run a cone shaped dremmel tool as straight as you can up the bore just to smooth it all out. Dip it Super Blue and  What can it hurt. Way too much importance is placed on long barrels. Until your bullet is approaching the speed of sound from the top side it doesn't matter very much. With today's powders you can find something that will give almost equal performance without setting fire to the weeds in front of the gun. Bench Mark might be a good one or 4320.

Oh yeah, there's not much infor in the archives about Sabot bullets. They run about the speed of a .223 as a rule and accuracy is pretty fair. You just have to try em. But they come up short at long ranges at times. I saw a CSI show where a Sniper was making 900 yard shots with a Sabot. So I'm sure it's easy to do. Everything on TV is true ain't it.

Another thing, most of those African deals are a scam but about 1 in 5 is legitimate. I've got billions in Swiss Bank accounts I haven't even seen! Well anyway that's what I told em to do was just put it in a Swiss account in my name and send me the numbers. I guess I have the numbers somewhere around here, I don't open the mail very often but they sounded real legitimate. It's amazing all those African are starving with all that money just lying around.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 14:43:09 (ZULU)

 Precision shooting had a very good article on the 6x250. A guy had built one on an AR and a bolt gun. He was getting 2950 with the AR and 3000+ with a bolt gun.

 I don't have the data to look at but a guy off of another sight sent me a couple of pages of loading data for his rifle an he was over 3000 with several powders.

 I sent all the data to my son but when I was researching it for him I found that most like to shoot them in the 2900 to 2950 range. Good case life and barrel life even in hipower.

 If you run the numbers with the BC and the velocity I believe its better than my 260 with the 140s at 2750 but not as good as the 6.5x284s. Like I said yesterday it fell right between the two of them.

 I love my 260 and I would think the 6x250 would be a real winner for tactical shooting with the 105s. If you get a chance run the numbers and let me know what you think.

Dakota Av...

  Got your e.mail thanks!!! Really appreciate that!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 14:46:16 (ZULU)

Just a heads up for rosterfarians in Fla or South Ga:

 There is a big firearms collection auction in Weeki Watchee this Sunday. They have quite a few Mauser K98's, Enfields, tactical shotguns, etc, etc. I have a brochure for the thing, so if you're interested, hit me offline and I'll e-mail it to you.

Thanks,

  Jim

Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Florida, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 14:50:33 (ZULU)

This guy was shoting 6mm 107's in the 22-250 case and they were freekin' loud coming over.  Louder than all the 6BR's and several of the fagmags.

Now, will it beat it in the wind,,, nope.  But it's a damn sight easier to sling shoot/target shoot at 1K than the 308's.  I'm torn between this case and a 6BR for my misses....

Me,, I'll stick with the fagmags for now.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 16:18:22 (ZULU)

Here's my simple experiment... put a .308 next to a 6.5 x 284 and shoot at an 800 yard target until both are zeroed on that range... now dial on two clicks of elevation on your M3LR for each rifle... this simulates the same flich across the two rifles... if you guys are correct, the change in impact elevation on the target should be exactly the same...  is it?  

Another scenario... the .308 has a down range trajectory which is a steeper arc than the 6.5 x 284 at 800 yards.  To exaggerate the example, let's compare high arc softball to fast pitch baseball ...which is easier to hit the strike zone?  

Perhaps I'm totally wrong, would someone please explain it to me in simple terms....

If a deviation in the precision of aiming does not exist across calibers, why does Kevin's .308 shooter require a greater degree of precision when estimating range vs the 6.5 x 284 shooter?  

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 16:42:36 (ZULU)

I gots to have me one of these 6mm 250's. But that's what I said to Pat about 2 years ago about 260's. I never get nothin done! I think

Rice was shooting one of these at long (i mean long) range Prairie dogs. I never saw it but learned what he said was good to go. Tubbs won the NRA's with it last year agin! Why hell that's better than a .308 case I dunno for sure but...

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 16:44:24 (ZULU)

 When you first ask about giggle, we were talking shooting a "Known" range dialed in for POI on the target. In theory a .5 MOA 308 would shoot .5 and a .5 MOA 6.5x284 would do the same.

 The end result is the same because the POI is going to be "ON" the 800yd mark weather its a 308 or a 6.5x284. If your guessing the range then the margin of error comes into play with a flatter shooting rifle.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 17:35:22 (ZULU)

I tried the .224 sabots awhile back. Several primers, powders, etc. and I wasn't impressed with my loading of them. Here's a hint though, don't try to get 'em to touch the lands, pack 'em into the case as far as possible and check the runout on all. Best I ever did was 5" pattern at a 100 yds. YMMV. Someone else here asked about them also awhile back and danged if I can remember who. Maybe he had better luck than I did and will share the secret. They will scream at those velocities so make sure you bullet selection will hold together. Some won't spin that fast and will come apart upon leaving the muzzle.

Mr. Yote,

I've got an airport full o' pups this year!!! I shoulda known it would happen when I called six of 'em up the hill that day last fall. They don't seem to be as shy this year. In the past, if you whack one they'd scatter for a month or so and then return, now they seem to just shift ends of the runways on me. I need a tunnel rat.:))

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 17:50:24 (ZULU)

This flat shooting rifle thing. I have a couple of young friends here who are really tough. They both have .300 RUM's..  We are about to find out just what advantage those big flat shooting cannons are going to have. We are trying to bring in the loads and trying scopes to see what falls off and what stays in there. I'm kind of shooting the control groups with .308 winchester and conventional sniper rifle. They are bareing down on me hard. More news at 6.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 18:06:40 (ZULU)

“If a deviation in the precision of aiming does not exist across calibers, why does Kevin's .308 shooter require a greater degree of precision when estimating range vs the 6.5 x 284 shooter? “

With my 6.5x.284 I need to dial in 14.25 moa to hit at 750 yards.

The target is 20”x 20” so a miss won’t happen until I hit more than 10 inches high or low of my aiming point (center).

7.5x1.047=7.85 inches/moa @ 750 yards

10” / 7.85” = 1.27 moa or 1.25 moa.

Any range estimation error that will cause me to adjust my scope greater than 1.25 moa from perfect (14.25 moa) will result in a miss (with any caliber).

In other words I can hit the target if I dial in 15.5 moa to 13.0 moa.  That’s a hit for a range guess of 790 yards to 710 yards. (+/-40 yard margin or +/-5.3% error)

With my .308 I need to dial in 22.0 moa to hit at 750 yards.

I will hit if I dial in 23.25 moa to 20.75 moa.

Range guess must be 775 yards to 725 yards (+/-25 yard margin or +/-3.3% error)

The 6.5x.284 shoots flatter so you have a wider margin for range estimation error.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 18:16:41 (ZULU)

 Medical Battalions reorganized into DISCOM (Division support command) and will now be Charlie Company (Charlie-Med) in the FSBs (Forward Support Battalions, Manuever Brigade support area) or the MSB (Main, Div-rear).  All the various support elements were chopped up into direct support--to get them habitually associated with their suported troopers.  Good idea, actually.  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 18:33:43 (ZULU)

I don't think your fastball analogy holds, either.  One click off is the same distance on the target in any caliber.  We have black powder shooters on our range that hit steel targets at 1000 yards even though the rounds are coming in damn near vertical on the target end.  Slower rounds just make the range and wind factors more critical.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 19:05:58 (ZULU)

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 19:14:38 (ZULU)

1 MOA is 1 MOA at 100 yards. IT's optical and has nothing to do with bullets. The drop charts take care of the variations in bullet speed and weight. The observations by Kevin explain it nicely as far as what flat shooting helps with.

It works for me to memorize my elevations as MOA (moa@100 yds.) In other words I don't think in terms of clicks or drop at 500 yards I think in terms of 500 elev. = 12MOA (inches) at 100 for my 168gr 308's. When I go to 500 I just spin it up to 12 and shoot. If you want to break it down then it's easy to say 12X5=60"drop or 48 1/4" clicks. It is better to keep me organized.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 19:20:31 (ZULU)

The below excerpt is from the Federal Firearms Regulations Guide, the 2000 edition and as far as I know the latest addition.

A nonlicencee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in ANY state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(2)(A) and 922(e),27 CFR 178.31]

Hope that may clear a few things up.

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 19:54:19 (ZULU)

Wes, i'm looking forward to hunting season and no sleep, when i have time to sleep i tend to think instead and that sometimes just ain't good.

Well i got ole Jon B picked up from the airport last night,( no sheep) had him introduced to the morning 10 oclock bottle of beer tradition this morning and we set about his rifle, also did a couple of other shop jobs so have realy been at it all day, if any one else ever does any work for him, do yer self a favour and send him to the pub untill youve finnished, Jon " take justa little more out the barrel channel" Beardsley, got the award for customer of the year today... welsh git.. good to have him here though and realy looking forward to hitting the road in the morning direction Bavaria and Nurnberg, IWA here we come... and i am sure as hell gonna get him drunk...

Take care guys, Jon will tell you all about our drunken antics and Calcutta workshop practices next week i'm sure..

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 20:08:48 (ZULU)

Perhaps I should shut up but this doesn't make sense intuitively.  I'm missing something

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 20:24:48 (ZULU)

  I think what your missing is the fact that were talking "NO" wind and "Exact" range known.

  With these two factors then the ability of the rifle to hit the target is dependent on the shooter and the rifles accuacy, not the caliber.

 By knowing the range and no wind you simply dial in the correct MOAs and lay them in there. My 308 will group quite well at 800 yards with no wind.

 Once again the advantage is in the 6.5s ability to buck wind and shoot flatter when the range is unknown and you have wind. So now the shooter can be a little more off on his range and wind call and still in theory hit the target.

 If you give a good shooter a 308 who can mil and call wind he is at no disadvantage to someone with a 6.5x284. The flatter shooting calibers can make a poor shooter a better shot but won't necessarly make a good shot any better. In other words a HIT IS A HIT!! Hope this helps.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 20:49:50 (ZULU)

One and all, thanks for the info on sabots. Sounds like a trick of dubious value, so I'll save the experiment for when I run out of other headaches. Still have enough to learn on less exotic stuff. Get the basics first.

Treehugger

Treehugger <pitsligo@sprynet.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 20:52:52 (ZULU)

Thank you,

Chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, ID, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 21:06:30 (ZULU)

thanks so much for the info Hawgs.  That's what I figured it was.  Funny thing is, I called the ATF and the lady there told me it had to be FFL to FFL.  Anyway, so I call my local FFL dude.  He tells me much what all youse guys told me "as long as it's going to an FFL it's OK".  However he said that from a dealer's standpoint (much what Kush told me....thanks man) there's a whole lot less potential evil red-tape when it's done FFL to FFL and that's probably why the guys wants it done that way.  I can't blame him.  My dealer also said that it would be much easier and cheaper for him (as a dealer) to deal with UPS instead o' me.  Guess it's gonna be FFL to FFL...can't be too safe these days.

Thanks again hawgs,

Rich S.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 21:14:18 (ZULU)

You have to go to the extreme to try to make your point. But, we aren't talking about comparing shooting straight up to shooting shooting nearly flat.  We are talking about comparing "nearly flat" with different "nearly flat".  Your original assertion was that MV/flat trajectory made a difference in miss distance if you fired with the rifle slightly off target (leading to my "wiggle" remark).

You are absolutely right, in a mathematically pure sense: more elevation on the sight means less horizontal component = longer time of flight.  But I'm an engineer, thus willing to accept some degree of mathematical impurity.  The initial horizontal component is the MV times the cosine of the el angle.  The horizontal component changes, as a function of el, proportionally to the sine of the el angle.  A 1 MOA difference in el, for small initial angles, makes very little difference in TOF.

Let's consider a slightly different case - no wind, rifles zeroed, and a 1 MOA wiggle in windage.  Which rifle misses farthest?  Answer: they both miss by 1 MOA in windage, because the time of flight didn't change between the aimed and error case, right?  

Trick question. The time of flight really did change!  The new point of impact is slightly farther from the muzzle than the original point of aim.  So the 1 MOA windage miss is accompanied by a very small el component. It just was so small that you couldn't measure it in any practical manner.  Now, change the aiming error from windage to el.  Same argument applies.  For rifles with flatter trajectories there is a small difference in POI for the same aiming error, but it is so small that there's no value in calling it anything but zero.

HTH

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 21:33:39 (ZULU)

I simply thought that when a projectile was appraoching it's practical accurate max. distance, the margin of acceptable error was reduced...I based this on my limited, but actual experience.. I was extending this to suggest that a comparison could be made from one projectile to the next, in order to reduce the amount of anecdotal information employed to pick a weapon system.

My understanding of ballistics is limited.  My interest isnt.

I guess this relationship between caliber, velocity, recoil, barrel life and drag will remain a mystery until I figure it out myself... when I do, I'll check back in and share with all, openly.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 22:08:46 (ZULU)

----------QUOTE------------

NIMA has produced special reference graphics of Baghdad, Iraq and the Middle East. These unclassified products are suitable for reference only and should not be used for any other purpose. This page has electronic versions for immediate download as well the points of contact for ordering the printed reference graphics. These graphics were intended to be print products and are very large files; the graphics have been compressed in alternative formats, please read the download instructions carefully.

Government organizations authorized to order maps from the Defense Logistics Agency can do so using the following stock numbers:

Baghdad K942S(BAGHDAD)

Iraq K341S(IRAQREFGRA)

Middle East K201S(MIDDLE EAST)

The public can order print versions of the graphics by contacting the U.S. Geological Survey at 1-888-ASK-USGS. More information can be found on the Catalog of Public Sale Topographic Maps, Publications, and Digital Products web site.

----------ENDQUOTE------------

Click on my name for the link or http://www.nima.mil/ocrn/nima/srg/index.html

cut and paste.

I've seen the hardcopy maps.  Interesting stuff.

Joe Mahon,  (or anyone else in the know)

What would work better for ground troops using civilian GPS in Lat-Long mode??

-Jet Navigation Charts (JNC) - scale 1:2,000,000 ,

-Operational Navigation Charts (ONC) - scale 1:1,000,000

-Tactical Pilotage Charts (TPC) - scale 1:500,000.

Or is this not pratical for some reason?  

Military topo maps of the region are kinda hard to come by.

Thanks,

~DA

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 22:11:26 (ZULU)

           You mentioned that Tubb was shooting a 6mmX250. Isn't it a fact that he's doing something like running the 250 case into a shortened .243 die, then fireforming to get the powder capacity that he needs? I really wouldn't call that round a 6x250, and neither does he! I think that Rice posted on the Roster that he wouldnt want to pullthe trigger on a 6x250 loaded to 3000.

           If guys are doing it, and getting away with it, more power to them, but history and the accepted loading manuals say no. They better stock up on Loctite 640 to hold their primers in the pockets.

           I really don't want to piss in anyones Post Toasties and if all of the positive things said about the round are true I might want one for myself. But I, for one, believe very little of whats printed in magazines, even PS, and believe hardly any gun shop or rifle range scuttlebutt. This sport seems to fall victim to the "round of the month" syndrome. One competitor innovates, most of the rest emulate. The fact is that David Tubb would be a champion with almost anything that he chooses to shoot (he's that good) then add to the fact that he posesses superlative rifle building skills, and has the time and money to back him up. By the time everyone else tries to copy his combination it's obsolete and he's at Perry with something completely new!

          If that's the game that people want to play then more power to them. Far be it for me to spoil a man's fun, but IMHO we ALL, especially yours truly, would be far better off spending more time at the range and our money on components;-))

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 22:32:07 (ZULU)

   Does anyone here have credible info on the poison aspect? I have heard/ read some interesting things about hazards of breathing amounts of lead oxide when shooting, but have never seen any reliable, practical gauge or benchmark as to what is too much exposure when the rounds are fired.

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 22:58:18 (ZULU)

His disicpline is quite different than tactical stuff anyway. He shoots moly all the time. Has sighters and all that stuff. Yes, it isn't the cartridge thats winning for him. That round is pretty good though I sure don't know why it's better than a regular 243 or 6mm remington.

Anyway; Mark; there is a consideration. It won't kill you right away, if you smoke cigarettes I wouldn't worry about it. They'll get you first.  

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 23:12:41 (ZULU)

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 23:43:25 (ZULU)

Fella worked at an indoor range as rangemaster.  Would step out for a smoke.  Didn't wash his hands first.  Got lotsa lead in the old system!

Pretty sick pup for awhile.

Spud

dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 01:02:27 (ZULU)

Quote;

"BR....Me never smokie but the LC sure do when I feeds it lead.....Heard that a guy who ran a training facility quit using non jacketed bullets because he had accumulated high levels in his blood even though most rounds were fired outdoors....."

Mark,

the smoke from shooting lead projectiles is from the LUBE used on them.

The REAL culprit of shooting lead bullets, is not the bullets.

It is the lead stypnate used in the manufacture of the primers.

This, along with handling, and having it on your hands, to mouth, to eyes, to nose, is where the lead ingestion comes from.

Indeed, some lead is atomized upon firing ( those with a open base jacketed), and lead/tin/linotype mixtures.

But, as stated the poison issue is in the Primers.

Seems an easy solution would be to make primers without lead Stypnate....

Big problem.......they are made, and are available..but, the shelf life of primers without LS, is around 2-5 years MAX.( with a substantial degree of potential misfires, at any age).

So, until a better mousetrap is devised....shoot outside as much as possible.

Dos Zap

Terry in Texas.....for Boltster.;)

Glockamolie <Glockamolie@aol.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 01:15:28 (ZULU)

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 03:28:29 (ZULU)

We are shooting 10,000 to 25,000 45 LC loads per year, using 1 Lb of pure lead  mixed with 9 lbs of wheel weights. Running about 750-900 FPS depending on what we want to do with the rds and are not getting any leading problems at all.  You can also drop the  newly cast lead bullets directly from the mold into a plastic jug with water ( it helps slighly with harding)  but be careful: Gloves Eye protection long sleeves Etc. Hit me off line. I have been casting pistol bullets since 1970

Bomac <biker3@Earthlink.net>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 05:24:21 (ZULU)

I don't think these are this years' brood. They can't be over 20 lbs or so. Bout the size of a good fox. I never saw 'em last year. If these are the yearlings and there's more comin, I may need the strafin technique to keep up. :)) I wonder if they're stunted by lack of food or somethin. I guess I should try to take one in a live trap and have DNR check it out. I put the 6.5x20x50 mildot on the 20" stealth .223 with a undude sling for A/P dogs and it's workin real well. Carry it all day and see from one end to the other.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 13:40:18 (ZULU)

I recently purchased a Tokarev TT-33 .. and I'm really wanting to go shoot it, but I need to find out how to break it down first .. I've searched on goolge, but couldn't find anything but info about the gun .. I've fiddled with it myself, but still couldn't figure it out .. any help would be great guys .. thanks in advance

Eric <SirNightWolfe@cfl.rr.com>
FL, US of A - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 14:29:10 (ZULU)

 I always considered PS a pretty good mag when it came to facts, now some of the others.... I also recieved some pretty good data from a hipower shooter who has a lot of experience with the 6x250 and was good enough to send me his load data with the cronographed vel. and his comments on the loads.

 I will see if Jr. will send it back to me so I can give you more detailed info if your intrested. I think you and I had this conversation before when I was originally looking at it for tactical shooting.

 I don't go by what a loading book says is max load(Within reason) because if I did I would be shooting my 260 at only 2650fps. I also don't really understand why a 243 has a hardtime pushing a 100gr bullet to 3000fps and I can push a 100gr in my 260 to 3200+fps with the same case!!

 I also have not lost a 260 case yet to a primer pocket being loose. I have 500 Rem an 200 Lapua cases that I shoot. The Rem cases have wore out one barrel and part of another so they have been loaded a number of times. I guess you and I will have to just agree to disagree on this one until I build one and start ringing it out. Then one of us will owe the other a cold one.(HA) I plan on staying in the 2950 range anyway.

Medicjim..

 I hope your not getting discouraged about your argument. Your just mixing apples and oranges. The key to your argument is the wind and range.

 So realisticly you are correct in your assumption that the 6.5x284 is better in competition because you will always have wind.(At least where I live) The range will not always be constant or known.

 But when you take away the wind and give a exact known range then any accurate rifle capable of shooting that distance has no more of an advantage than the next one. Shooter "A" should be able to shoot as well with a 308 and with a 6.5x284 both guns being equal in accuracy.

  As for the "Jiggle" it will be the same as Mike said, because the bullets "Path" has been corrected to hit dead center at 800yds with the 308 and with the 6.5x284 so same jiggle for both makes same amout of miss at 800yds. Traj. plays no part in this because you have "Dialed" it out of the equation. Hope this helps!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 14:41:38 (ZULU)

Like you, my understanding of all of this stuff is limited!!!! and my interest is much less so.  I'm here to learn, and to share what I know.  Knowledge is one of the few things that there's more of after you give it away than there was before.

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 15:21:53 (ZULU)

Mike

Mike <fnhipower@juno.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 15:37:00 (ZULU)

Until then, I'm shutting up on this issue to avoid further confusion (mostly on my part)...

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 16:05:38 (ZULU)

   Healthy discussion about opposing viewpoints is good for all of us. I'm learning more and more about the Tubb version of the 6mmX250 that he calls the 6mmX, courtesy of an e-mail from Byron. If you haven't seen it check it out if you like:

     http://www.zediker.com/articles/6x.pdf

   As to why a .243W has a tough time reaching 3000fps. with a 100gr. bullet at normal pressures while at the same time you can clock 3200fps. from your .260R with a 120gr. bullet, I think that I have a valid explanation. First and most important, the bore area of a .264 bullet is greater than that of a .243, of course. The larger the bore area, given a case of the same capacity, the lower the chamber pressure - other things being equal. This is exactly what Wes was talking about when explained why he chose the .35 instead of the .33 bore with an improved '06 case. He can drive a 250gr. .35 cal. bullet faster with the same pressure as a 250gr. .33 cal. bullet in the same case.

   Another thing to consider is the bearing surface of the bullet in the bore. As a rule, the larger bore dia. bullet of "similar" weight is going to have a shorter bearing surface, which builds less pressure and in turn allows higher velocity within that safe pressure limitation.

    Both of the above rules I believe to be proven facts of interior ballistics and handloading. Now we come to something that I'm not equipped to test and therefore am unable to prove (or disprove). This is strictly my OPINION, and I really hope that I'm wrong! I think that a .260R case driving a 120gr. bullet at 3200fps is probably over safe pressure limits. I've been doing a little checking, and most authorities are reporting more like 2950 max. Not reloading manuals, mind you, which I agree are governed by liability insurance and tort lawyers, but people like P.O. Ackley and Ken Waters for example, who published long before the lawsuit bug took over. As I'm sure you're aware, dangerous pressure curves sharply upward before outward signs (like primer pockets, case life, or difficult extraction, etc.) manifest themselves. My logic may be all wet, and I hope so. I'd rather be wrong than be proven correct by an accident!

    And FYI, I'm not a "loading weenie" by any stretch of the imagination. For example, I normally drive my .300WM/190SMK load to 2966fps, my .308W/175SMK goes at 2644, both to track the M3 dials (I could go faster) my .223R/77gr. SMK does 2753, and my .270W/130gr.NBT chronos at a quick 3225fps. I'm not cringing, waiting for the KB monster to show his ugly head. I enjoy pushing them fast, just not too fast is all;-) If your load is that quick and safe to boot, then you've got a real winner!

Respectfully,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 16:29:43 (ZULU)

 I hear what your saying and agree 100%. I am not one to push the limits of reloading. As ugly as I am I have no desire to make it worse.(HA)

 My load for my 260 hunting rifle(700SSBDL) is a 95gr VMAX that goes across the crono at around 3250 and shoots into .6 groups for 5 shots and will print around 2.5" at 400yds. This is about the only load I have shot in it for 4 years now and have used it for mostly coyote hunting. I developed a 100gr and 120gr load for antelope and deer but never went yet.

 I have a friend who uses the load for 120s in his for deer hunting and swears by it. I get no pressure signs of any kind, be it stiff extration, primer pitting or flattening or loose pockets, so until someting crops up I guess I won't worry about it.

 The only powder I have had that scares me is the RL series. I had a load in my 300WM that showed nothing for pressue and was a grain down from the max in the book when I went up a half more it blew the primer in two out of three loads. I have heard since, that this can happen with RL series esp. RL-22.

 I know the chamber was tight on the 300 and maybe this contributed to the problem but it is an eye opener when it happens and something I don't care to repeat.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 17:35:16 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 22:11:06 (ZULU)

           I know exactly what you mean about Parker Ackley. I had the pleasure of spending a lot of time with him over the period of several months during the mid-1970's when I was being punished and was forced to live in SLC for a couple of years;-)

           He would attempt to explode almost any action that he could get his hands on, provided the had a stout vise, a long enough cord, and a safe wall to stand behind! All in the name of research, you know. Some of the information that I learned and the stories that he told were priceless. If I'm not mistaken, he said that the strongest action that he ever faild to destroy was the early Jap Arisaka! The world lost a whole bunch upon his passing.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 22:27:45 (ZULU)

A fellow shooter just gave me 60+ 173gr FMJ boattails with very slight pull marks. Any idea what a good IMR 4350 load would be for those and what velocity might be from a 24 inch stock Savage stick? I know they are from military mfg, I just don't know what flavor they are (m118 or m118lr).

Festus

festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage , AK, USA - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 22:46:28 (ZULU)

festus

festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, AK, - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 22:57:27 (ZULU)

Incoming from my work email re: airborne lead w\attatchment.

Steve ~ hockeyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
- Friday, March 14, 2003, at 23:38:01 (ZULU)

    ``Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas.''..........Quote from one of the Dixie Chicks to an audience in London.

     Just so YOU know, Dixie Chicks, We are ashamed YOU are from America!!!

     You three Bitches can go play Banjos in Bagdad during the first bombing run and then do an encore in Hell!

     I got some CDs to put in the skeet thrower........

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Friday, March 14, 2003, at 23:54:00 (ZULU)

I have been getting so many nice e-mails with attachments from all of you I didn't realize so many  cared ;)

I quit a job I had for 21 years about two years ago and have been very busy and S.C. kinda went to the back burner.

BRogers, I see you're back giving sage advice. I think when I last posted you had your weenie in a knot and had divorced The Roster.I guess you found your way eh?

Windinmane,thanks for the heads up.

Thanks and I'll try to come see you all more often

Bruce Evans <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Longview, Tx, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 00:24:04 (ZULU)

 What do you expect from PETA followers. Glad I never liked them.

        LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 01:12:11 (ZULU)

Statement from Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks

March 14, 2003

"As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush because my remark was disrespectful. I feel that whoever holds that office should be treated with the utmost respect. We are currently in Europe and witnessing a huge anti-American sentiment as a result of the perceived rush to war. While war may remain a viable option, as a mother, I just want to see every possible alternative exhausted before children and American soldiers' lives are lost. I love my country. I am a proud American."

Oops - I can imagine the mail they've gotten regarding their statement!! Spin doctors are now at work!

Sarge

Sarge <Sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 01:34:41 (ZULU)

4350 is a tad slow for .308, but it will work..

IF you can stuff around 48grs behind it, it should be a decent load..

These bullets are not M118LR's.....as they are BTHP's.

If they are FMJ's, they are 118's.

Dixie Chicks.....

Maybe they can do a joint conference call with Hanoi Jane.....

Get Sean Penn, and the rest of the rich little wah wah babies to go public.

This could very easily ruin their careers..

Country folks do not take a hankerin' to such talk...especially on foreign soil.

Dos Zap

Terry in Texas

Glockamolie <Glockamolie@aol.com>
- Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 02:40:15 (ZULU)

  Someone a little while back asked about information on ART scopes. There is a guy selling an ART manual dated 1968 on the CSP website. I believe it is an ART I.

  Go to CSP on www.jouster.com and look at the for sale link.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL- Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 03:28:31 (ZULU)

For you guys casting your own 45LC (and anything else).

I wasn't concerned until I saw the amount of lead you guys are working with!

Cheap insurance, get your blood lead levels tested. It is cheap, probably less than $25.00 and can be drawn at any drawing station for most clinical labs, or at your doctors office.

In a past life I was an environmental research chemist and then a forensic chemist (hanging out with the firearms examiners every chance I got). I've run numerous health studies relating to lead poisoning. Our firearms examiners got tested 2 times a year.

I'm not sure about the exposure from the melting process, but I'd bet there is a good chance you are getting a fair dose of lead vapor as well.

And no I'm not a left wing environmental wacko, lord knows I've worked with a few!

Just given the number of rounds some of you were quoting concerns me, adding on the casting operation really freaks me out.

Most of all, keep the kids well away from that lead, it really screws them up! I've seen plenty of that first hand.

No longer the chemist, I get paid to shoot these days! I look forward to Monday, well at least when it is spent on the range, I can't believe they pay me on those days.

Be safe,

Matt

Matt L. <lfootmatt@yahoo.com>
AZ, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 03:50:26 (ZULU)

Bruce; ah yes, for your information my weanie stays in a knot.

You are a veteran of the pistol wars I believe.....You never can tell when a menace will return to the scene of a crime. I get bored.  

Saw the chicks at some gig once. Total airheads despite their rather appealing sound. It's to be expected I guess....

Can you say "bitches"? That little one....wrote the book on em.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 03:55:11 (ZULU)

How you doin'? Glad you posted so I could thank you for the poly-pellets. I had a slight 'puter malfunction and lost your email address.

email to follow

Thanks much.

jc

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 06:34:45 (ZULU)

I wonder if we aren't getting a bit anal about our shooting, ballistics, drop tables, and all. It's all valuable and good information, but how much can actually be scientifically applied in the field? In my experience you can estimate or know the range, from a variety of methods. Know the wind...at least where you are and a few other knowns taken into consideration. In final anaylsis it's an "educated" guess on the part of the shooter and perhaps spotter. Nothing more. The more experience in reading conditions and shooting the more "educated" we become. Still, it's fun to stir the pot and discuss.

I won't waste more space on the .308 vs 6.5 X .284, et al. The rifle/cartridge combination is only a tool. Some give a slight edge is all...

Time for sleep...just in from duty. Nasty fight on the block this evening. Our white supremecists are stiring the pot...intel has nothing for us to date.

At least it ain't boring...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 08:25:13 (ZULU)

Last September Andy and I and a small crew from the “Sniper’s Hide” web site went out to the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, New Mexico to shoot a week long rifle match in F-Class.  Andy and I brought along our issue gear (.308 rifles w/M3LRs).  We did pretty well for a couple of amateurs.

As the week went on our scores continued to hover in the middle of the pack and everyone improved day by day.  I got to the point where I would shoot a possible score with a bunch of “X’s” at the 300, 500 & 600 yard line and then go back to 900 and 1,000 and loose enough points to be in the center of the pack again that day.

I found myself fighting the wind at the longer ranges.  I’d watch the running mirage and pray for a boil or make a hold call using my Gen II and share that information with Andy and visa versa.  Meanwhile the guys shooting the magnum rifles were dropping fewer points with every shot.  I refuse to concede that they were doping the wind that much better than us.

Like so many matches before, Andy and I used the trip home to do an extended AAR and prepare a plan for the future.  That’s when I decided to break out of the “tactical” mold and get me a “racing rifle”.  I figure if I can stalk with the thing and carry it like I do my M40A1 then it isn’t such a specialized beast after all.  We’ll see this May if it can be used in both roles.

The 6.5x.284 from the 30” barrel produces some very encouraging numbers as far as drop and wind deflection are concerned.  This will allow me greater wind and range estimation error in a tactical shoot and still hit.  I’ve got my new Kestrel 4000 and Palm Pilot software to use to generate a firing solution.  I know that experience is a great teacher but in some way every shot is unique to my experience and I want to use as much science as possible before reaching into my SWAG-BAG.

Since the mission of the sniper includes hitting his target with the first shot then I figure any reasonable modification of the system to improve his chances is prudent.  I now consider my 6.5x.284 not just a “racing rifle” but an experimental platform for tactical shooting as well.  We’ll see how it works out.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 12:45:45 (ZULU)

JC...you are more than welcome.

Bruce Evans <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Longview, Tx, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 12:55:16 (ZULU)

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 17:25:30 (ZULU)

   Why are the White Supremacists stirring the pot? Either the're bored like some of us get, or they watch too much OZ on the tv set, or just out of pure meanness, and some of us do that too;-))

Andys Dad,

         Kevin, you really make a good point and I would have to completely agree with your reasons to experiment. When I call anybody on gaming what I have in mind are benchrest rifles painted camo and those creations coming out of Wyoming that weigh over twenty pounds and look like a buck saw with headlights! I figure that whatever a guy can do to further the state-of-the-art is beneficial to the entire community, but if a REAL sniper can't hump it ANYWHERE he needs to go or if the combination he's using is not STONE reliable from the Arctic Circle to the Iraqi desert or the jungles of South America then it just don't belong in a Tactical meet competing against rifles that get the job done. An idea - how about an experimental class for those beasties? Are there enough to make that feasable? Just a thought!

ALAN

ps, I saw a "Tactical" rifle at a gunshow last week that weighed 28 lbs. and at first I thought that it was one of those portable Honda generators!

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 17:30:49 (ZULU)

Bruce; sorry' I didn't mean to imply you were advisery but it was my way of getting your scent. Glad to have you back. I remembered your location "Longview" but was a little foggy about just how I remembered you. I am perhaps too forward with "sage" advice these days. My good friend the Catman is taking the day off, I think he's a bit burnt out on it and I am too. Rick, is apparently busy or charcoal grey. CDC is apparently still pissed at me as he hasn't posted since I came back so blame me for that one. Jaeger is on a secret mission. PeterR is silent so JR, Pete L, Sarge,Alan,Bolt, Pat, Kevin, Doc and I are the resident relics with guest appearances by Steve, Scott, Bruce, Bobby and some interesting new talent. .  Posting is down and subjects seem to drag a bit, but keeping the pot stirred all I can is what I do.

Remember these guys?  

James R. Jarrett, Dick Culver, John R. Furgerson, Don Bain, Craig Roberts, Bill Byford,Sgt. Gimmellie, Jeff B, Lemay,Don Farmer, Al Ostapowcz, Russell Taylor, Bruce (ole dog), Jerry Rice,Trigger 50, Stefan, Torf, Torsten,Bill Wylde, Cory Wilson,Stefan, Nato Steve, Hexa and lots of others my old brain won't recall right away. Those were the days, my friends.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 18:20:33 (ZULU)

Spud

Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 19:18:00 (ZULU)

E-mail downrange.

N/A

Spud

Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 19:24:21 (ZULU)

You have mail, no attachments.

John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, TX, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 19:36:54 (ZULU)

I have surgey on Weds, and once I am sober enough from the drugs I will start working on several articles for SC.  I will be bed bound for a few days.

Working on a few teaching gigs when I heal. May have some great stuff for you guys, working with some of the best ever setting up.

Wes, damm glad to hear you are doing better.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 19:47:51 (ZULU)

Seriously.  What happened to 'em all....well, maybe 'cept Trigger50 ;))))).

Later,

RichS.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 21:14:55 (ZULU)

Yote Bait.....

Folks come, folks go, but some of us will always be around. Hell, where else could we go and make just one little mention of say SPINDRIFT or RU..RUUU...GGGEEE (YOU KNOW WHICH RIFLE I MEAN) and get so many people upset??????? hehehehehehehe

6.5x284....

I wish you guys would quit talking about them so dang much! Will never be able to afford one unless they come out in factory or I sell half a dozen of the cheap assed riffles that I have now.

Well hot dang!!!!!

I wasn't last in the F-class last Sunday in the individual or team! Miracles do exist.

Time to hit the tiller again, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 21:24:00 (ZULU)

"WATERPROOF -- Kowa scope models TS-9 (50mm), TS-610 (60mm) and TSN (77mm) are NOT waterproof. The scope is protected against dust and fine rain if the eyepiece is attached. DO NOT expose the scope during a heavy rain or put in water. DO NOT detach the eyepiece in rain or heavy humidity; in such conditions it is also recommended not to turn the focusing knob too often.

Kowa scope model TSN (82mm) -- This series IS waterproof allowing the owner to use in rain, however do not immerse in water and operation of the focusing knob when wet should be avoided as much as possible. "

I pulled this off the Kowa web site; http://www.kowascope.com/

Hope this helps,

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 21:48:58 (ZULU)

Bolt <reeldoc@triad.rr.com>
NC, - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 22:16:01 (ZULU)

Thanks

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 22:53:15 (ZULU)

I think we all have times when we either can't remember or don't know the answer.  I know I couldn't remember and I have a TSN-1 and a 821 so I had to look it up for my own piece of mind as well.

I've always had mine in the padded case to ward off my rough handling and the occasional oops!  I wouldn't go swimming with either but I think they can hold their own in the occasional sprinkle.

Later,

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 23:26:23 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 01:32:33 (ZULU)

Remember those guys? Yea remember them and more.From reading the recent posts looks like a pretty good group of new blood also.

Mike Miller,good to see you're still amongst us,I checked out your site a few days ago(after you sent me that nice e-mail with an attachment) and I see the sling line-up has expanded some.Looks good I still think about you every time I use mine.

Bruce Evans <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Longview, Tx, USA - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 01:42:22 (ZULU)

Stevie-NatoBright (amongst others) was the reason that had to start adding the "Hockeyref" to my posts.... there were too many steves posting then too. He was the instigator of the first annual Spring Duty Roster Flame War and Sh1t Fest if I remember correctly....

It seems to have become an annual thing come mid January and early February - I attribute it to cabin fever.

Then there's our "prodical M-14 son" who shall remain un-named, and DC8plumber (not sure if he left or changed handles), others I can't think of off of the top of my head. Wow! Time sure flies..... can anyone else remember the "wargaming" scenereo question by "Condor" that was running in late 1997-early 1998? Seems that the 6.5x284 might have been the part of the answer to that question....

Steve~Hockeyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
FEELING REAL OLD, - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 03:29:26 (ZULU)

Guys never open anything you dont no where it came from, expected to see it.

Bruce shoot me an email with an address I have something for you.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 04:39:06 (ZULU)

1911 still slowin you down huh?   It's OK it's a fine gun. I recently got me one (borrowed) and timed it on film. The 1911 was only .2 to.3 slower with me drivin both weapons. :) No flames guys, we beat that one to death.  We established the 1911 is king of Sniper Country or so Dan said many times.

Mike; Yes, some of those I miss. Others I miss the entertainment. Some are both. Say something in my behalf to James J. if you get a chance. He's one of the real deals and a hell of a patriot. I never did get a chance to show him how to hide in Kansas terrain. This flat country really puzzled him. You gotta learn from the Comanche. Wait'll you guys see the land around Bobby's country down there. IF a drop of water hits west of Granfield it breaks up and runs 4 ways. ....:)

Steve H.; indeed I remember the scenerio. I worked it for quite a while and came up with a scheme involving low level night parachute drop and motorcycle and a shovel to bury it with for escape purposes. A pick up with a sky hook and Apache chopper cover.  Do remember he changed the wind speed or something....never did quite understand what happened there.  I think the caliber limit was less than .50 or something like that. Today I would just use a .338 RUM and pop the Bastard from the long range they specified. Wasn't it about 2000 yards or was it less?  There was supposed to be an accepted solution but never knew what it was.

The .300 RUM went to 850 today and really started to come into it's own. The .308 was still right with it but the cross wind was much less of a problem to the RUM.  Both had 2 shots in the kill zone every target out of a 3 shot try. A varible cross wind about 8 to 17 made it hard. The .308 was 2" vertical but horizontal was about 9 inches. We continue to test. (That shooter is getting better by the minute).  My eyes went out about a week ago and wouldn't focus anywhere. BUt 2 days ago they snapped back in. (diabetes damn it). But he's right on my tail with that cannon. God that thing is awesome.

I go back and read the archives myself just to relive some of it at times.  The 911 time and the Washington Sniper, boy did that last one clear em out of here!  

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 05:15:46 (ZULU)

I was looking at purchasing a rifle chambered in the 300 RUM, soon I hope !  Are you using a muzzle break, or just taking the punishment like a man :) ? Is the kick close to the 300WM? If you could E-Mail me some Info. about the accuracy of that caliber, I would really appreciate it. ( Bullet Brand/Weight - Powder/Grains - Type of rifle - if you don't mind.!?!) I really don't know if I want to puchase a large caliber to shoot Comp. ( TRY !) or stay with the .308 or something similar.......currently using a 300WM w/Break.....

Thanks for your time,

BearMan

BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 08:28:54 (ZULU)

Yesterday I went out and chronographed my latest attempt at a "best" load for the 6.5x.284.  This process has me talking to myself.  I tried magnum primers (F215) and RL22.  I'm still shooting into <.5moa but my velocities are wide spread.  I'll try some Remington 9 1/2M's and see what happens.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 12:21:52 (ZULU)

 Got a short vacation in Germany, will be here for about 2 weeks (14 - 27 March 2003).  Any thoughts, suggestions or comments on what/who to visit or pick up while I'm here.  I'm in the Wiesbaden/Mainz area.

 Dave "Doc" King

David King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
MD, USA - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 12:34:46 (ZULU)

I did get a chance to play with my M1A with the new Les Tam sling.  For those that don't know about Les, he's in Hawaii and custom makes slings to your measurements, real nice guy too with quick service. Mine is the 1907 pattern service rifle sling and it's stout as hell. I got so tight I think I pulled a muscle in my arm =)  If anybody is interested e-mail me and I'll get you the contact info for Les.

Lapua 170's-I don't experiment much...168/175MK's is about it for me.  My shooting partner on the other hand will prime and powder anything that fits in a 308 case.  He got a bunch of the Lapua 170's from Midway on clearance and they did shoot very well, better then we expected.  We only had the chance to try them to the 300 but they grouped well.  I don't have the data but can get it if anybody wants it.

Treehugger-Are you a man or a mouse?  Cut that barrel, crown that muzzle then see how it shoots.   If you don't like it....you needed a new barrel anyway =)

Gun finishes-I saw a while back somebody asked about gun finishes.  I have used KG Gun Kote finishes a lot in the last year and really have taken a liking to them.  Bead blast and degreese, heat to warm the metal.  I do about 10-15 min at 120F.  Spray on finish with airbrush and bake at 350F for 1 hr 20 min (if memory serves).  Very simple and durable.  I just did my 1911, Ruger MK1 and an 11-87...they turned out great.  

Everybody stay safe (even you Pete L. I don't want you getting pissed on that good Kraut beer and falling off the tree stand you've set up in your bedroom =)

Joe S.            

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, CA, USA - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 12:55:27 (ZULU)

I sent you a message at the address below your last post....no attachments.  I would really appreciate your opinions.

Thanks

Pat

Pat (the other one) <patncindy@iglide.net>
Idaho, - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 13:05:00 (ZULU)

BRogers...1911 slowing you down......hmmmmm maybe if you sawed off an inch of barrel at a time.

Things used to hum around here I didn't realize how much I missed it.

Mike mail sent no attachment.

Bruce Evans <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Longview, Tx, USA - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 16:12:29 (ZULU)

We are getting Less than 1MOA. at all ranges out to 900 so far. The thing laughs at the wind. 168 and 178 grain a-max Hornady and some 168 match kings have been used. All performed excellent in this 700 Sendero stainless fluted. He's using 90 something grains of REl 25 and the other fella is using the Retumbo at 90 something but we haven't decided the Retumbo is up to the job. IMR 4350 is recommended also if you wanna stay conventional. Recoil is judged  to be somewhere between the .300 win mag. and a 20mm cannon. Not really. You can stand it without a break but IF I were shooting competetion I'd go the break route. I don't know what kind of competetion you are contemplating so be sure the breaks are allowed. This thing will kill you if your prone on a bipod. It comes back in your eye socket in spite of anything you can do. The guys have to be real careful about it. It's not a real sharp recoil like the 7STW but very hard shove. Eye relief is something you have to pay a lot of attention too. I could not honestly say I would change from the 300 win mag if you have one you are getting along with. These baby's are awesome but they pack a wallop! These 180's are moving about 3350 and tear up the road. I don't shoot it much to tell the truth, the 2 owners are doing all the shooting. I shoot .308 groups to use as control reference.

Doc King (world traveler); the blonde ones. Pick up the blonde ones!

Bruce you are evil! Get a Kimber.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 16:28:58 (ZULU)

Alan: Thanks again for finding the Winnie 70 HBV for me. I've gone through the break-in stage and starting some experimental loads. Varget and 175 SMKs are a given but I've heard some guys having really good success with 4064, but am leary of that powder as it IS temperature sensitive. Two Shoes has talked me into trying some IMI brass, so I'll be trying some. I've topped the HBV with Badger Base and rings with a Mk4 M3 10X and a Mike Miller sling. <<<< A little advertisement every now and then doesn't hurt does it Mike? ;))) >>>>

Cryogenics: I'm looking for anybody that's cryo'd a factory barrel with any success? Easier to clean? More accurate? Any noticable differences?

Ken H: Man, I don't know why you're selling your stash of B&L Tac 10Xs? Mine is super clear and top notch. Just kidding. I figured you cornered the market in those scopes and selling off the excess. It's a shame they're still not making those.

Dixie Chicks: I live only 50 miles from Lubbock where Natalie Maines is from and the Lubbock Avalanche Journal states that all of the radio stations in Lubbock were flooded with phone calls after her remarks about our President. None of the stations played any of their music over the weekend. I believe these chicks have successfully fried themselves.

Bravo: Where is our resident Gas Gunner? I've always got some M1A quesitons that need tending too. I've just ordered the new revised full rail ARMS #18 Mount. I believe its going to work better or at least as well and will be more accomodating to such optics as the red dot CQB types.

Kevin: 6.5 X 284. All I can say is I want one. Is yours a GA? Hit me off line if you so desire as I'd like to hear more about it. Cost and such. On Raton, N.M., I'd like to make that this year. Maybe not all week, but Whittington is home away from home for me. Stayed many a night in those cabins. Lots of memories @ Whittington.

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 16:50:37 (ZULU)

And when I get to SC, to Saint 'lito I will tell, one more Marine reporting, sir! I've done my time in ... the archives.

I've been lurking and reading the archives for a good while. This site is a wonderful compilation of what in industry we called "best practices", i.e., what works.

I'm grateful to Ken, Marius, and all the others who make this site work, but most of all, grateful to all who post here, despite the risk of virus attacks and flames.

I own and shoot a variety of 1911-based .45 ACP pistols in IDPA competition. None are stock, and all feed 230-gr. FMJ and HydraShoks flawlessly, which is the only ammo I feed them.

I have an M1A Scout Squad with Aimpoint sight and Mike Miller's sling. I also own a mouse gun.

I have on order a M70 Stealth in .308, and have a M3LR Gen II to mount on it.

Over the next couple of years, I'm going to shoot the barrel out of it, and keep doing research on long-distance shooting, a subject I don't know much about, but have learned some about reading the articles and archives on SC.

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing."

 -- Werner von Braun

I used to know a guy who had a bumper sticker on his car which said, "Honk if you love sheep!"

I know it was there, because I put it there.

Please excuse my clumsiness while I get some experience with this editor. Best regards from an old retired guy who likes to shoot.

Lindy <lindysisk@yahoo.com>
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 17:21:03 (ZULU)

Welcome to da rostah!!!  The guys here are the greatest and are extremely helpful.  The fact that you've read the archives goes a looooong way too.  I've been hangin' out here since '97 and pretty much get here every day.  The guys here really have helped me tons in getting my first LR setup (308 PSS w...don't laugh....Trashco sooper sniper....I must be one of the lucky ones, I've had no problems)and now I'm awaiting my first GA Precision rifle w/ LR M3 (the sniper country rifle).  Sounds like you got a great setup comin' your way.  BTW, what kind of 1911's you got and more importantly, who worked 'em?  I'm contemplating on sending my Springfield out to Chuck Rogers this summer.

Welcome,

RichS.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 18:17:23 (ZULU)

'yote bait, Mk4,

               Picked up a new Glock 36 on Friday. What a neat little carry gun. So far, it feeds the flying ashtrays without a hitch. Never had a plastic toy before, this ol' sob's had 1911's and P35's all his adult life! Time will tell if I'm still tweeked about it. BTY - Glock factory rep was at the store when mine came in, gave me a heads up. New Glock due out soon, a standard frame .45ACP single stack. Hmmn...

               Not talking paper figures from ballistic programs here just real life situations - reference to sniper use only - if you can't kill 'em with a 190SMK out of a .300WM @2950MV, will the .300RUM make a sucess out of ya? And I can put at least forty accurate rounds downrange, prone with bipod or bench, from my WM with no brake before I start to fatigue. Believe me, not intended as a brag. Just an effort to inject a little practicality. And to be truthfull, I haven't shot the .300RUM yet. I'll take Bill's word for it. I have, however, fired twenty rounds through a friends .338RUM with no brake. He's welcome to it! Waitin' for an AR-30 to come in to see if ArmaLite tamed the Lapooie with their combination of weight, stock design, and brake. I'm betting that they did, considering what they did with the AR-50. Call me old and reactionary, but I don't see anything practical that's jumping the gap between the .300WM and the heavy and braked .338's. Just my $.02

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 19:26:41 (ZULU)

>>>>BTY - Glock factory rep was at the store when mine came in, gave me a heads up. New Glock due out soon, a standard frame .45ACP single stack. Hmmmm...<<<

Hmmmmm. Interesting. Did the rep give any details?

Sidenote: I understand that the Kimbers and Sigs have been in short supply for the last several weeks. I figured some of our troops were chunking the M9s in favor of the .45s. Might just be a rumor. Either that or HDW acquisitions.

--

>>> Waitin' for an AR-30 to come in to see if ArmaLite tamed the Lapooie with their combination of weight, stock design, and brake. I'm betting that they did, considering what they did with the AR-50.<<<<

I'm seriously thinking of making the AR30 my next acquisition. Here's a link to a discussion on Biggerhammer sent to me by another 338 Lapooie shooter:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/wwwboard/index.cgi?read=99214

--

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 20:03:32 (ZULU)

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31546

--

Chief Moose withheld look-out on sniper suspects. Delayed release of descriptions focus of Maryland police union negotiations.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31545

--

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 20:29:53 (ZULU)

Have you gone back to testing the IMR4350 at all?  I went thru about 200 rounds (20 different loads) before I settled on a load for Gumby the first time around.  When something clicks, it'll be wunderbar,, until the damn powder makers change something in the lot.  If I can get H4831SC shooting at 2950fps again, with the Rem 9 1/2M's and the 142's, I'm buying 16lbs and not looking back.  215M's keep the pockets tighter though,, so either way it goes,, low SD and good MV+ Nirvahna ;))

Took both my fagmags to 1K today.  First time in a sling since October.  What a wake up call.  Wind beating my ass from a 9 at nine o clock to a 9 at three o clock and back, heavy mirage, switching wind, deep boils at 600,,,  funs stuff.  I hate horizonl stringing,, but I guess it's better than verticle ;))

Match winner today was shooting a 6.5x284 at 2750fps with 147 Clinch Rivers.  He put in a  197-6X, f class with a bench/bag set-up.

I managed 2nd with a 190-5X and then a 188-5X, both off a sling.

Once I get Gumby back up to speed, load wise, I expect it to be turning in high 190's again.

For those of ya'll wondering how much better the fagmag is compared to a 308,, the highest 308 score today was 182-2X.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Next 1K mathc at AEDC, March 16th. , WCRC's HSTM 3 gun tactical match has been rescheduled for May 10,11. If you're not locked down due to Mothersday,, come on out and shoot., Get with me for details and drive directions. - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 21:36:29 (ZULU)

The three I use the most are a Springfield loaded in stainless, a Series-80 Colt with a satin hard-chrome finish, and a stainless ParaOrdnance P-13.

The Colt has a full-length guide rod, Heinie sights, ambidexterous extended thumb safeties, and an Ed Brown beavertail grip safety. I don't know who built it - I got it used from a gun store.

The P-13 was modified by a local smith, Ed Vandenberg. He put an Ed Brown grip safety, extended thumb safety, and Novak sights on it. Ed does really nice work - he also did the satin hard-chrome finish on the Colt.

The Springfield is almost stock - I just changed out the extractor for a Les Baer. I also took out the full-length guide rod, because it kept coming loose, and I tested it both with and without the full-length rod, and could tell no difference in the way it shoots. Bear in mind that IDPA shooting is not bullseye shooting - almost all the action takes place at 20 yards or less - and reliability is the most important factor. I think that's true on the street, too.

I use Wilson Combat 47D 8-round mags in competition, Wilson 7-round mags on the street, and any of a collection of 7-round Colt magazines in practice - I think I must have 20 of them. Every feeding problem I've ever had was ammo-related, probably due to the fact that I pick up loose range brass at competitions. Since I got a Redding Competition seating die for my Dillon 550B a couple of years ago, and started running my competition ammo through a case gauge, I've never had a failure to feed.

BTW, the weapons are stainless and hard chromed because I live literally a stone's throw from salt water - there are sailboats in my front yard. Blued steel rusts within days. One of these days, I might try one of the teflon or other synthetic finishes. Clint Smith once described one of my guns as "That looks like a chromed Mexican truck bumper!" Guess it might be a target indicator...

Cheers!

Lindy <lindysisk@yahoo.com>
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 21:38:56 (ZULU)

MK4, incoming, n/a, clean - Norton's

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 22:04:25 (ZULU)

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 22:52:52 (ZULU)

I picked up my SCLE rifle last weekend in person, and I finally got around to shooting yesterday.

First, here's my load data:

SMK 175gr

Winchester brass

Federal 210 primer

44.7gr Varget

Chrono averaged around 2690fps. (I have the exact numbers if anyone is really interested)

Zeroed for 100yds, and tested it out.

25 shots into 3/4" CTC pattern with one called flyer.

John Leveron was my witness.

This gun can freaking shoot like a house on fire, but what else would you expect from GA Precision?  THanks for the good deal George.

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMO, MO, USA - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 23:04:22 (ZULU)

Well, it's been some time but it would appear that I remembered my pswd that went with that old extinct email account.

Good to see so many of the names I remember after all this time.   It's been nearly two years, still lurked from time to time but have been pretty inactive on the firearms boards.    Hope everyone is doing well.

I'm facing a potential promotion at work and if I get the job I'll find a little disposable income in my bank account that will likely wind up going towards a new project.   Hence the reason for my return, I may end up needing some help from other like minded individuals in suggesting places to spend my money.   I still have yet to make the desired mods to my AR10 that has been sitting in my collection all this time, it's looking like a good candidate at this time.   Mr. Gardner, if you are reading this, the crazy squirrel shooter from Kern County is almost in a position to be able to afford to send a gun to you.

If anyone winds up firing off an email to me...   The address @lightspeed.net has been defunct for going on 2+ years, new email is uglygun@bak.rr.com

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., - Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 23:17:33 (ZULU)

Surely there is someone who doesn't like the GA rifles! Must be NOT!

Single stack Glock? that tremor is John Browning turning over in his grave! All you munchkin hands can now have a plastic .45 gun! :)

LA PD is adapting to some Kimbers, perhaps that's an explanation for some of the shortages.

Alan; I have to say your right on with the 300 win mag. 300RUM question. Either one works but how anyone can shoot a standard weight barrel in a .338RUM or 300RUM without a chiropractor present is beyond my comprehension. The Senderos are challenge enough for me. Way too much ground disturbance if a break is employed for me.

I'd take the .308 for tactical every time. Even with recoil aside.

    Hope the 36 meets your expectations. IF you have the little magazine extender it helps your fingers stay with it. I use the next size up but it's the 36 that really conceals well. That in itself is one of the primary advantages of Glocks is how smooth they are to the body when carrying. I've seen some real cute 1911 relatives that try to be small and concealable but it's pretty hard to compare them to the plastic carry models with the smooth frame. Once you get used to the trigger you may be hooked.

Chicks; you deserve it. You "turkeys" went too far too fast and got to believing your own advertising. America and me loved your music but like any good whore. It's best to keep quiet and just take the money.

Lindy; it's admirable to read the arches but I never chastise anyone for not doing it. It's like the library of congress any more. But it's worth the read and the benefit of those past and present is had by the reader.

MK4; Yes, by all means the XD is a real fine work. Out shoots the Glocks as far as group size and is ever bit as reliable although not quite as handy to carry as the compact Glock. AND Just not quite as many options as to this date. The magazines are more reliable in my estimation. This was the little eastern bloc pistol I reported on last year at the time. It is now in service as a Springfield armory XD. When I reported on it.. it was selling for $225 American and available only in full size 9mm version. Apparently Springfield was not asleep and procured it for their line. Either way it's a choice piece. I luv it!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 17, 2003, at 00:40:37 (ZULU)

MK4:  I felt that the crown for B&L scope sluttery should go back to Pablito - who is responsible for my B&L sluttery in the first place - LOL.... Thru selling and horse trading - I'm down to two now. Interestingly enuff - I have one that is identical to all the rest - however it's marked 62-1040, whereas the usual B&L tactical is marked 40-1040. Anyone out there know anything about this odd part marking?

BTW - I have one 6.5x20x50 VariX III Leupold left. It's listed on ebay.

take care hogs....

Ken

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 01:34:09 (ZULU)

 Peter.....Just cut a ragged hole at 100yds with irons with the  Marlin 444. Sure is a rush to see somethin' that kicks like a mule shoot that tight. Had the gun since I was a kid, refinished the walnut stock and took it over to Dad's last week......PUR-DEE.....He beamed when he saw it...Guess I was about 11 when he bought it for me one Christmas....Made me proud to see him so excited about how it looked. Guess this is the kinda stuff that the PC crowd will never understand....

 Had 3 nephews over yesterday starting at 6 yrs. They got to shoot the Colt .357. Needless to say they had a blast. Full of piss and vinegar. Had to take the key out of the tractor. Spent the rest of the afternoon rolling down a hill in a 55 gal. drum. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Wild Bunch"........Wait 'til they tell teacher Monday ;))

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 02:08:09 (ZULU)

          Y'know I was really used to that deep bright blue and fine workmanship on my early Colt 1911 and my all-Belgian Hi Power but I'm getting real attached to this plastic midget .45! Not a thought about carry wear, fingerprint rust, etc. And I don't wind up looking like a doofus wearing a jacket in the 100 degree summer days around here trying to keep a big gun hidden!

Mk4,

    Thanks for that link to the .338/AR30 info! It'll probably be next year before my dealer buddy can get his hands on a few at the right price. They don't seem to be that easy to find right now, but it'll probably be like the AR50 - now there are lots around, and the price has dropped too. It's definately on my short list!

    I don't have much on that new Glock that I mentioned, but here goes. It'll be a .45ACP single stack, seven round (I think) full-frame gun, a bit slimmer because of the single stack magazine, but much like the 17 with the standard Glock features. Supposed to be out this summer. The rep might have said more, but I was so busy unwrapping my 36 I could've missed it;-)

Guys,

     Recently heard on AR15.com that PayPal will no longer handle firearms and ammo transactions! Also heard that they were bought-out by E-bay. I've done a lot in the past with PayPal and had good results, very handy with foreign stuff. Oh well, f**k 'em. Another company to boycott!

Case-neck turning,

                 Any suggestions out there for the best neck turning equipment? How about for the easiest to use with acceptable quality? One model can't be both, can it? Keep in mind that I'm not one of those anal benchresters;-)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 05:55:03 (ZULU)

A little bit of prelimary shooting with the HBV...mostly getting sighted in. 5 shots @ 200 yards resulting in .750". Was using a load for another rifle (43.5 gr Varget/175 SMK/210M & Win. cases). Not bad for starters.

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 06:34:28 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Monday, March 17, 2003, at 08:31:01 (ZULU)

"Any suggestions out there for the best neck turning equipment?"

My first suggestion would be don't do it.

If you must then be sure to get a power screw driver with a collet for holding the cases.  This will speed up the process nicely.

I've got one rifle with a tight neck and I've got to turn for that.  I wouldn't do it again because it's too much work for too little return.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 12:58:54 (ZULU)

Kevin, to a degree - I agree.....however, my last batch of .308 brass from Lapua changed my mind.......I didn't mic the entire 500 pieces, but from the 20 or so that I did mic, the neck walls were from .0132" all the way to .0159"......

In my way of thinking, that is just too much difference to believe a bullet can be expelled with equal 360 degree pressure......

Alan.....Don Nielson's neck turners are the best in the industry especially when you add the motor attachment........I use this exclusively for my BR stuff....

I must admit, that for hunting and general shooting cases, I continue to use my old Sinclair units....one set up for the rough initial cut, and the other set for the finish cut........used with the Sinclair case chuck in my portable drill, it makes cutting cases a more simple and faster task.......

To ALL the send up the prayers......the Lord was listening.....all my tests came back and I'm in great shape....the dizzyness, etc. must have been inner ear infection or something similar that the medicine may have cleared up...........

Friday morning I woke up feeling fine and have been so ever since......heck, I spent the whole day Saturday at my favorite bench at the local IWA range blasting good bullets into paper targets !!!!!!

Thanks....

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 14:21:00 (ZULU)

 How far are you shooting your 6.5x284 for your load testing?? I got hung up on ES & SD for my 260 loads when it was vertical stringing. I was in double numbers for both and kept trying to get them down to single at least on SD.

 The thing was it was shooting .6" groups at 200yds on a regular basis. I finally nailed it down to bullet seating depth as the culpret for the vertical stringing past 500yds. I am still in the double numbers for SD & ES but it is shooting damn good to 800yds now.

When it drys up I will move to 1000 with it.

 I would try to do some long range testing with it if you haven't yet. You may be chasing something that you don't need to be chasing.

Neck Turning..

  I have a Forester neck turner and it works great. I have to neck turn all the Lapua cases I neck down to 6.5 because it makes the neck thick. I also turn all my necks to "Clean" them up, it really cuts out the bullet run out problems. I can do a couple of hundred in an afternoon so its no big deal for me.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, March 17, 2003, at 14:40:16 (ZULU)

On the AR-30, the price has gone up since a year and a half ago. The retail was around $1175 when my buddy ordered his and dealer cost was around $775. Now the retail is listed on thier site as around $1585 and I'm not sure what the dealer is. My buddy ordered his in fall of 2001 and just got it a week or so ago. He had the lower price locked in but the price has gone up. Armalite is way backordered on them now. If you order it now you probbaly won't see it for at least a year. If they get up and running faster maybe sooner but I wouldn't count on it. My buddy should have his out to the range within the next month so I'll let you all know how it shoots and feels when he does.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Monday, March 17, 2003, at 14:49:11 (ZULU)

Great news sir, glad to HEAR it. :))

Neck turnin,

I use the Forester hand turning setup. It's a bitch, but I think it helps. Every piece of Lapua brass I've mic'd showed that much variation. Once it's turned the neck sizing puts less stress on the case, I think. If all I had to shoot was Win. or some other brand I'd turn 'em all. The only ones I turn are for match work and load development. The M14 and others are so hard on brass anyway.

Kevin,

Do you have the old Speer #13 load book? It lists which powders to try w/ mag. primers. Also the loads overall seem a bit hotter than my more "recent" publications. I just changed coyote guns and tried CCI 450 w/ 28.5 W748 with the 50 gr. Nosler as opposed to the Hornady load which was 26.5 I believe and picked up around 200 fps with improved ES and SD. No pressure signs that I can't live with. "The standard disclaimer you would expect to follow that load info will not be included." If you wanna try it, care beful.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 16:19:07 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, March 17, 2003, at 16:55:30 (ZULU)

Seems that Daley's crew has pushed an assault weapon BAN through and this thing is supposed to be up for vote soon. Some of the details can be found on http://www.nationalmatch.us

Click on my name if I did the link right, otherwise it's under "clublouse"...

Some companies that might be affected are:

Armalite, White Oak Precision (John Holliger), Les Baer, Rock River Arms, Springfield Armory just to mane a few that are in the state.

Steve ~ hockeyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Looking for my reloading stuff now that the weather is breaking, - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 17:48:28 (ZULU)

Until all the current Roster messages have been deleted the display here on the Roster will be other than it should normally be.  This is due to the fact that I've have changed the scripts, but am not changing all the old entries as well.

Once the old entries have all been deleted the display will be back to normal - and better.

I also apologise for the short outage - but I'm sure all will agree it was worth it.  I hope!

When I have a bit of time again (HA!) I'll also try and convert all the emails in the Archives and HotTips sections.

Marius

Marius
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 18:49:38 (ZULU)

Like the little features at the bottom of your post, Monday, March 17, 2003, at 18:49:38.  

Those will be standard on all posts soon, won't they?

Would be a good feature....

DakotaAviator
Monday, March 17, 2003, at 18:59:40 (ZULU)

OK!!!! 51 grains of IMR4350 w/F215 primers at 78 degrees F is overpressure!!!!  I got five rounds fired and decided to call it quits.  Hard bolt lift on three and one with a blown primer.  The rifle still put all five in one ragged hole that about .5 moa.  I'll be trying another option. FWIW velocities were around 3,150 fps extreme spread over 100 fps.  I had no idea this caliber would be such a chore to load for.  I hate to use up limited barrel life on this process.  Next stop: H4831SC w/210M primers.

Ref: 5.56 Load Update

I got my new upper from George and I'm working up a load for that too.  I'm using 77 grain HPBT/24.5 gr. Varget/Winchester Brass/WSR primers.  Velocities hovering around 2,800 fps and shooting just under one moa.  No pressure signs.  I think I'll shoot it this way for a spell.

There is very little snow left.  Now we have mud.  It won't be long and it'll be time to break out the Harley and put these old knees in the breeze.  Sadly, I've got to go to Miami on Thursday and won't get back until Monday.  I hope to squeeze in some flight instruction while I'm there.  This job is killing me...ouch!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 19:03:09 (ZULU)

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 19:15:14 (ZULU)

Been busy as hell sewing all week, needed to get ahead for surgery. I actually have mailed all orders and have a few slings left over. LOL

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 21:32:24 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 21:45:26 (ZULU)

If you're going to try H4831SC look for Lot# 1 0917023989 and STAY AWAY FROM IT.  This lot is running about 170 to 200fps off the standard bottle.  I've gone through 6 lbs, and this one bottle is the only one that's given me grief.  High SD's (14 fps intstead of 6) and low MV.  This lot is running 2720fps with 50.5gr, instead of the standard 2930fps at 50=ish *F and 2980fps at 90+*F.  I've gone to 1K with 23.5MOA above 100*F, but primers are splashed and pockets are loose.  All with a 26" barrel.

I just picked up a new bottle of 4831SC today.  If 50.5 is back into the 2930 range, I'm staying with it.  If not, I'll re-try the H4350.  IF it's still flakey I guess I'll settle with RL22 and live with it.  51.5gr RL22 is getting me 2900fps safely.  That was 26.5MOA to 1K.  Not great, but not bad either.  I could stand to bump it up to 52, but am unsure of how it'll be in the heat.

FWIW, THE standard load for most of the fagmag shooters I know of with 30" barrels is 49gr IMR4350 with a 210M or BR2 primer.  Many of them shoot winchetser brass though, with DDS (tight bodied) chambers.

Marius,

Very cool.  Maybe the African scam mails will slow down now ;))

FatBoy...

Chris
Next 1K match in Tullahoma TN is Mar 23rd. 8am registration., COF is 20 shots plus sighters at both 600 and 1000 yards., Registration for WCRC HSTM 3 gun Tac match is still open. Get with me for details. - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 23:19:53 (ZULU)

If any of you Hawgs over there get to read the Roster before you head to Bagdad, how bout marking one of those projectiles "With Love From the Boltster". Would greatly appreciate it and make it count! One shot, one kill.

JRM....

Good to read the news! Ear infections are a real pain in the head. Now you've got no excuse not to shoot with me and Master Clean-Bolt's-Clock Cockerham. Need to do it soon before the Vertigo wears off. Might have a chance of beating you if you are infirmed.

Time to get in the shop and finish one of the Hawgs reels, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Monday, March 17, 2003, at 23:49:33 (ZULU)

Well folks I've just been informed we have reached the half way mark on registrations! Half the team slots are now taken so if you're going to attend get that registration in!!! Time is running out!! Don't hesitate!!!

Come on down, bring a gun, we'll shoot, it'll be FUN!!!

Oh and while I'm reminding you'all about things...don't forget there WILL BE pistola shooting at this match! Get to practicing! Pistols and wheel guns will have equal chance so don't panic!

Sarge slowly sneaks back to his bunker with a VERY evil grin and laugh!!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 00:02:40 (ZULU)

Brogers
Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 01:40:29 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 02:11:28 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 03:06:24 (ZULU)

Since I've been asked here we go:

No laser sights, no thermal or NV sites, no attached flashlights, tritium nights sites are OK but won't be much help! Minimum caliber .38 Special/9mm NO Magnums except .357 but using .38 Special loads. NO "race" guns, NO IPSC speed holsters! This, like your rifle, is more or less "duty" type equipment. If there is a question on this ask now so it can be clarified before the match.

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 03:10:34 (ZULU)

Seems like the 6.5 X .284 shooters are getting active again...;-)

Chris, Thanks for the heads up on the "bad" lot of H4831SC. Luckily, it's not what I've been using so no problems. Still using Norma brass, but need to check the Lapua I've got. How do they compare for internal capacity. Will start low and work up, as usual.

Kevin, I use Federal 210M's with all my accuracy rifles. NO complaints.

Pat, the 6.5 load I shoot goes into 1.25" to 1.5" for a three shot groups at 600 with 210M's in them. No stringing. Think you'll like the results.

On neck turning. I do not neck turn my tactical brass. I tried and didn't see much difference...other than loss of time. Plus, I want all the strength I can get holding the bullet in place.

If you concerned about runout TAKE THE EXPANDER PLUG OUT OF YOUR DIES AND DO IT IN A SEPARATE OPERATION!

I did this and runout went from .000 to less than .001". Before that it was running .003" to .005". I'm using Redding Competition Dies and a separate neck expander.

On the G36. Love mine. Great carry piece. Light, concealable, with big bore punch. Glock is bringing out a single stack full size soon, I hear...Now THAT will be a keeper.

All for now...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 03:25:36 (ZULU)

Hey you guys are a bunch of closet Glocksters! BUt I thought.........

Brogers
Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 03:54:21 (ZULU)

God Speed to all of our Soldiers going into harms way.

You're already Heroes and you're constantly in our prayers.

--

Mk4

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 04:38:33 (ZULU)

mail downrange

spud

Dennis B. Queen
Merced, KA, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 04:56:37 (ZULU)

Been using almost the same 5.56 load in a Remy 700 PSS. Only difference is LC brass. All of 'em go in the same small hole at 100.

I've also been trying the Hornady 75gr A-Max over 24 gr. of Varget. They don't do very well at 100 but will eat the x-ring at 600.

jc

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 05:49:08 (ZULU)

Went surfin' over to Rimfire central.com a few days back and came across some info about a company named MILITEC-1.  They make metal conditioners in liquid form as well as a grease.  Sent off for a free sample of the stuff and received it yesterday.  Have any of you ever heard of or used this stuff?  In case you're interested, their address is:  http://www.militec-1.com/

Doc

Doc Holloway
Doin' my income tax in the rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 12:27:25 (ZULU)

Well guys, Gadget Man is our very own Jon Beardsley, having spent the last four days with Mr Gadget him self I'm still wondering how he managed to get all those gadget pockets on one jacket??

Walked into the pub with no name, well atleast it had a name but no damn sign, figure some drunken soldier(or roster hawg) probably robbed it as a souvenier, I says to the bar maid, "wo sind die jungs aus Schottland", ie, where are the guys from Scotland, she points sheepishly to the guys sat through in the side annex, aha, they have obviously shamed them selves already, ha, maybe Brian Sain is with em??,, over i walks, "Hi folks, which one is JR"   silence.......i get looked up and down for what seemed like forever, i can read thier minds,"hmmm he don't look like an arab, no turban, hmmm is that fat, a beer belly or is it semtex wrapped around his middle?"  I says, "ok, i must have the wrong party", turns to leave... a quiet american voice from the corner says,, "whats your name ?? " I say Pete. "Pete Lincoln?" yep thats ,me, ahhhh snipercountry, its JR, and he aint half as ugly as we'd all imagined... well i managed to get Jon about drunk and JR converted to weitzen beer, had a great weekend at the IWA in Nurnberg, saw some real nice bits n pieces, I want an AR15 real bad and i want a Walther pistol about as much,and i want to get into bow hunting. Premier Reticles where very interesting, had a good chat with the Remington guy, Border barrels where ofcourse well represented and like thier weitzen, IA, nice nice rifles, and Jon got his ultimate gadget, the Kolbe Pressure Cabbage.. and i bought a nice tripod.... for all other stories, especialy the incriminating and embarrasing ones about me, well,, Jon and JR will tell all... Great to meet JR at last, nice guy, and great to see Jon again.. next time i'll get you both to the disco, then i hope the music is so loud that i can't hear all the reloading formulas...

Pete..  

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 12:47:42 (ZULU)

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 13:30:13 (ZULU)

Not sure what separate expander he uses.....I use the one from Sinclair in which I place the .001" oversize mandrel in......it assures concentricity of the neck ID.....

....Boltster....it will be a pleasure to shoot with you (hehehehe...I peeked at the score sheet from Butner !!!!)

God Speed to all of the rosters best that are or have been deployed......smoke his ass for ole "JR"........wishing I was there !!!!!

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 13:36:44 (ZULU)

Brogers
Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 14:33:17 (ZULU)

I've had better luck with low SD's using 215's and 9 1/2M's.  My RL22 load went from 22fps to 8 by going from a 210 to a 215.   I'm not sure how much credence to put into it though, as my SD was 8 on saturday, and the same damn load was 14 on Sunday, same everything but temp. (30* drop)  

I mensioned the MV change with H4831SC to the guys in the powder store and he said, "Well, it's less than 5%, nothing they would worry about."  I guess he's never shot long.  5% of 1000fps isn't bad, but 5% of 3000 makes a HUGE difference.  200fps is more like 7%, or 3.5moa in my case. I hope this new jug works so I can get to shooting and stop this damn load testing.

I'll put water in the Norma's and the Lapua's tonight to check for capacity, but when I was still shooting Norma I found MV to be almost identical to Lapua cases. Well within the ES.  Both types come in at 200gr or 204gr.  Norma was softer, and a bit more accurate, but lost pockets MUCH faster.

You mensioned expander plugs.  Do you find a need to use one with the Redding bushing dies?  I don't use an expander at all and have decent results.

FatBoy...

Chris
Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 16:33:55 (ZULU)

http://www.zediker.com/tubb/images/dies/6XCdies_color.pdf

Jared
San Antonio, Tx, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 17:09:16 (ZULU)

Then we are driving through a village after Shaba has taken his son to school.  He says to me, 'look above the kebab shop, I bet theres a woman looking out of the window'.  Sure enough, there she is, 'Kebab Shop'.  So out of her mind with love that she spends her days looking out of the window, just to catch a passing glimpse of her Beau.  Shes apparently been there for several years now since Pete cruelly dumped her.  I'll say nothing about spit roasts, women travelling across a country for a 'service', the axe wielding woman or the current complications.  My hero - Shaba (the Hut);-)

Good weekend.  Nice to put a face and voice to the emails - good to meet you JR.  Hopefully now we've made the initial contact we can meet up a bit more.

IWA had lots of stuff and if we are are talking gadgets, congratulate Pete on his new tripod and swivelly thing from Premier, deer dragging contraption, a camo rucksack he practically stole off some poor bloke and a folding seat he got free with a 40Euro piece of chocolate.  'Gadget-Man', talk about the pot calling the kettle black ;-).

Thanks for good weekend Pete.  Your work on the rifle was much appreciated.  I now have a totally unsafe 2lb trigger; hehe!  Tried the sound moderator and it fits, the baffles did'nt fly out the front, so it seems you can at least thread straight ;-) The wonders that can be acheived in almost medieval conditions.  It'll be good to see you over here next month and with a bit of luck we will finally have the Marine-Tex.

All the Best

Jon (waiting impatiently for his Kolbe Pressure Cabbage)

Jon Beardsley
Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 17:34:23 (ZULU)

Norma, FF w/ primer = 201gr .  Holds 66.4gr water for a total of 267.4gr.

Lapua FF w/primer = 204.5gr.  Holds 66.8gr for a total weight of 271.3gr.

If anyone cares to see why Lapua weighs more than Norma and Winchester, click on my name.  This is a cut away of all three at the case web/primer pocket that shows the different web thicknesses and flash hole sizes.  They are in order of Norma, Winchester, Lapua.

FatBoy...

Chris
Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 18:30:51 (ZULU)

I just picked up a pound of H4831SC (lot # ended with a 9)and one hundred Federal 210M primers.  On my last trip I bought one thousand Federal 215 primers.  The guy at the shop said I can trade off what doesn't work.  I'll load some rounds with H4831SC/210M and see where that leads.  Starting safe charge weight?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 18:42:06 (ZULU)

Met Deputy Doug from DR. Great guy (for a Yank). Snores like a bitch though. Don't let him tell you otherwise. Had to throw pillows at his big ass all night just to get some sleep.

Great presentions on several shootings. Col. Danny McKnight of Blackhawk Down fame gave a great presentation also. Senor McKnight el grande cajones amigos.

Great match. 72 2 man teams came to play. We had a blast. Saw lots of old friends and made many new ones. Wisconsin boys won it with JW Huskey's Alabama guys right behind 'em.

Glad to be home.

brian k. sain
Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 18:45:23 (ZULU)

Scott Steele

Scott Steele
Paradise, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 19:20:07 (ZULU)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is??, - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 21:24:31 (ZULU)

I'm not sure what Federal uses but Lito's load of 66.5grns of H4350 with Federal 210M primers is a good load with the 190 SMKs. Another load I use is 72 grns of Reloder 22. Both get me about 2950fps. Make sure to be safe though and drop the loads a few grains as what is safe in our rifles might not be in yours.

375 H&H, can it be used for longer range shooitng in a pinch? First let me say that I know this isn't a traditional LR cartridge. I just picked up my first 375 H&H for hunting and was looking at the ballistics. According to Sierras manual with thier 300grn SPBT hunting bullet you can push the 375 to around 2650fps. Looking at the Accurate Relaoding.com site, this is in the range of the 338 Lapua Mag with it's 300grn bullet. I know the BC on the 375s bullet(.480 BC) will be less and so it won't fly as well as the Lapua Mag(.768 BC) but I was just thinking. Just wondering if anyone has ever shot the 375 H&H out to any distances over 300+ yards(not for hunting but on paper)? I know it's not a bench friendly round either but you know how you start to think about things when you get a new rifle/cartridge.

Rob01
Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 22:20:44 (ZULU)

Regarding your loads for the 6.5 X 284...

I shoot a 6 X 284 and have had the best results with R22, Fed 210GM's, Berger 105VLD's in Neck turned Lapua brass ....

This rifle shoots better than I can...I plan to set it up on a Bench rest rig one day just to see how well these loads do...

I can get .15's and .18" at 100 yds off a bipod and rear sand bag..

If the groups open up beyond that, I am not doing my part.

PS...The speed you are getting for 140 gr bullets is what I get with 105's...I would be very careful with over pressures...

bryan
CA, - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 23:32:30 (ZULU)

You are the President of the United States.

Scientists have discovered a meteor that is headed towards the earth.  They have calculated that it will strike France in 2 days, at approximately 2:30 A.M.  The meteor is large enough to completely wipe France from the face of the earth forever.

France and the United Nations have requested that the United States send all available ships and aircraft to help evacuate the country.  Many of the ships and planes you could be sending are being used to fight the war on terror overseas.

As the President, you must decide:

Do you stay up late on the night of the impact to watch the coverage live, or do you tape it and watch it in the morning?

jc

jcopeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 23:33:40 (ZULU)

Rich

Rich S.
Bal'mer, - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 23:36:46 (ZULU)

I,ve been holed up in OKC for the last 3 weeks trying to fix yet another busted up airplane. If any body knows of a good steakhouse/pub let me know ASAP. Festus hungry...festus need food...

Thanks

festus

Festus
OKC, ok, flat and windy - Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 23:39:18 (ZULU)

Cattleman's Restaurant on S. Agnew. Good steaks and good beer. Cimarron Steak House on North Meridan, good mesquite grilled steaks. Lots of others too, but those 2 are my favorites.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 00:02:37 (ZULU)

Forgot to mention, since you are right up the road, if you get to having withdrawals from smelling powder smoke..come on down. If you don't have your stick with you, you can shoot mine.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 00:27:10 (ZULU)

Well folks, besides bein the proverbial chick magnet, ol Sain is a regular Steve Irwin crocadile hunter & snake charmer. What was that gator Brian, 5, 6 feet long?  hee hee.  That cottonmouth was quite the little surprise too. The look on yer face - lol. Gotta hand it to you though, ya never let go of the gator till after the snake threat was gone. Thanks for the memories, will leave it at that. :)

Man oh man, I never seen so many Nightforce optics in one place in my life as at the shoot.  Yes, indeed, a good time was had by all. Hopefully my voice will come back after yellin all those line commands. A-men to Senor McKnight. A true hero and role model.

out

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, US of goin to war, A - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 00:56:08 (ZULU)

JIM ANDERSON
OKC, OK, USA - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 00:56:14 (ZULU)

What to do with a gator in one hand and a cottonmouth that decides to say howdy. he hee

'bout pissed myself.

I had fun Doug. We'll do it again.

Brian

brian k. sain
Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 01:13:04 (ZULU)

Godspeed all those in the big sand box,and Mr Bush,GIVE 'EM HELL.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis
Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 02:41:17 (ZULU)

Doc - We have used the Miltec on the compound and a bunch of guys really likes it.  We are now trying Strike Hold or something like that.  Some of the guys like it better and some are not convinced. It is a cleaner, solvent, preservative.

Last time I saw Sinister he was on the compound after I had run him and his Captain on the range to get zeros.  They were checking out body armor and such, oh my!

Brian - Would loved to have made the sniper week but other duties got priority.  Are you looking at doing the H&K this year?  We will send a couple for the festivities on that one.  I hope.

Hold Hard guys

Rick

Rick
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 04:23:35 (ZULU)

>>>>>France and the United Nations have requested that the United States send all available ships and aircraft to help evacuate the country.  Many of the ships and planes you could be sending are being used to fight the war on terror overseas.<<<<<<<

Let me get this right. France and the U.N. are asking us for help...to help save them from a deadley meteor?

Can France do ANYTHING for themselves? Let the U.N. and the rest of the world come to their rescue. In my hypothetical answer, we no longer belong to the U.N.

So, as far as the President goes, I'd suggest that he write a real gut wrenching "get well" card.

--

Mk4

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 04:48:01 (ZULU)

Need to work some bugs out on my end so to speak...

Steve ~ Hockeyref
Feeling the need to make smoke and noise , South west PA, - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 05:08:12 (ZULU)

Clutch infant near on warm clear night, to sleep in peace relieved   from fright; Who'll then here say that those were right, who bore the cost,who pressed the fight?

  My prayer for those on distant shore, who reap the storm of Satan's Whore; God keep you safe until the dawn,from Death's cold grasp, free evermore........

  May God in His Infinite Wisdom guide the hand of the Liberator and protect the head of the Innocent.

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 05:20:06 (ZULU)

            Rumor mill has it that Federal and Alliant are sharing the same bed, and that since Federal took over running the LC Arsenal they have switched over to Alliant powders. I wouldn't be surprised! Here's two chrono readings - same stick, same chrony, same day:

1) .300WM, Federal GMM-190 ammo = 2966fps mv avg.

2) .300WM, W-W brass, WLR primer, 190SMK, 74.0gr. RL22 = 2980fps avg. This is supposed to be the SEAL load developed at Crane. Works for me.

Rob01,

     I've always thought of that .375 a an overgrown 180gr. '06!

jc,

    If I was the Pres. I think I'd get on Air Force One and have the driver put it in a big ol' racetrack pattern over France, just so's I could get the full effect!

Rick and 'lito,

              Good to see that you guys are still alive!

Mike Miller,

              Best of luck tomorrow and heal fast.

ALAN

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 05:22:35 (ZULU)

Figure that they would likely swap powder and brass around all down the line - wondering about late model LC brass for use in my mousegun since Federal Brass is a big no no in my mousers....

Steve ~ Hockeyref
Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 05:48:11 (ZULU)

Well Jon and me went to the S&B stand, no damn 4-16x42 PMII, i had intended giving em some shit, but i was so disapointed and was just lost for words, have it on good authority that one is in the testing stage of the pipe line though, maybe it will be out for the Shot Show next year , which with a bit of luck Jon and I may attend.

I realy liked the Premier Reticles ret with the hash marks between the mildots, what stand where the NXS's at?? oh yeah, the Hakko stand...  i couldn't believe that they are so damn expensive here, a good 200 euroes more than a PMII, We got it from the horses mouth that the Rem 700 custom shop rifles are not custom but a selected fit of factory parts, lito had the straight poop on that. The AI rifles are reeeeal nice... as are the SA 58 Fals from DSA and the AR 15's, lotsa nice kit, wish i had some money for more gadgets...great weekend.

Mark Smith, impressive accuracy from a cowboy gun eh, i love my 450M, but i want a pistol grip version.

Dave Doc King, if you read this, check your email and gimmie a call, i'm in the area of Germany you are visiting, wish i'd seen the post sooner..

JC, ref the asteroid, i'd tell all these leftie socialist pascifists and immigrants that the foggies where giving something away free and hope as many as possible would cross the border for a hand out just in time for the impact, i'd also round up as many french wild boar as possible and put em in my woods, and i'd arrange a transfer for any of the Foriegn Legion and Paras that actualy want to join us, then i would set up my portable seat that i got with the swiss chocolate, set my camera on my super gadget tripod, put some marshmallows on some sticks, open a crate of beer and settle down for a ring side view of the spectacular event, post impact, i'd stand up, make the reverse victory gesture and probably say, "Remember Agincourt", then i'd enjoy my toasted marshmallows and finnish all my beer.

Jon - JR don't forget our disco weekend in Hull or Newcastle..

Pete L  -aka- Shaba "Mister Lover Man"  i dunno where you got that from Jon boy..??

Peter Lincoln
Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 07:38:36 (ZULU)

Thanks in advance.

Lance Johnston
MI, - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 14:06:36 (ZULU)

Michael
Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 14:42:06 (ZULU)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 15:54:25 (ZULU)

WTF does this mean???

--

Microsoft JET Database Engine error '80040e21'

The field is too small to accept the amount of data you attempted to add. Try inserting or pasting less data.

C:\ROOT\WWW\SNIPERCOUNTRY\PUBLIC_HTML\ROSTER\../../cgi-bin/Database_Includes.asp, line 74

CatShooter
Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 15:56:43 (ZULU)

Ken M
occupied peoples republic of IL, USA - Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 16:31:17 (ZULU)

Well, he's a bum... but I figgered that I was all out of dark rum, the limes ran out two weeks ago, the snow is gone, I've lost 30 pounds, so I might as well come out of the cave and smell the spring (and look for some kitties ;)

---

I recently came across a Dillon DL-1000 loading machine for almost nuttin'.  It came with 20 boxes of 30 cal Sierra MatchKings (168's and 190's).  If I deduct what I usually pay for SMK's I got about $300 in the machine.

Now this isn't a reloading "press"... it's a loading machine... Mine was made around 1991 (the last of the production), and costs new, $3,200 (ouchie !!).

It was all over funkie and dirty and out of adjustment... and that's a dirty, sinful shame on the prevoius owner, cuz these machines are like 70 pound Swiss watches.

I took it apart, and scrubbed all the little parts with a tooth brush and mineral spirites, and replaced some little springs that were iffy.

The main problem (why it was sold) was it was out of time and couldn't load (even if it was adjusted), so I fixed the timing... now it looks all shiney and new, and it runs like the 70 pound Swiss watch that it is.

I'm now fitting it with Redding BR dies for .308/7.62, and I'm gonna be cranking out Lapua Match damn soon.

I'm done building riffles for a while, and I'm sending off my M3-LR to Dick for one of those magical "Gen II" reticles for the ASC#2 match.   I should be another 30 or 40 pounds lighter by then. :)))

---

This has been a pretty piss poor winter for the Roster.

Some of you guys that have been here for a few years know that a lot of the experenced and knowledgable shooters that have been here for many years... are GONE.

They didn't leave because of a pie fight, or a political argument... they left cuz the Roster has hit close to bottom.

I have gotten a lot of e-mail asking where they (and myself) went.

This past fall (I think November), <www.shooters.com> folded and that was a really big machine, and they hosted about 30 shooting websites.

A lot of you FNG's (Fuckin' New Guys) on the Roster came here from one of the Shooters.com websites, where whining and bitching about stupid shit was the norm, and are thinking this is the same kind of place... well it AIN'T (or it shouldn't be !!).

This is (or was) the premier longrange shooting/tactical/snipie website in the world.  If you browsed other websites, you would see a technical question come up, and some guy would answer "Go to Snipercountry.com and ask them (or "read their archives" ;).

A lot of that kind of support has left over this last winter.  These people came here to talk to each other... and in the process, were willing to answer questions from "FNG's", and kid around with the group... but they don't come here "just to answer questions" or to argue with some FNG that is debating about some $10 item in a catalogue (that they have NEVER used).

For you FNG's, I would suggest you read the following...

http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro/intro.htm

This will give you an idea about what this site is about and who it's for...

and...

http://www.snipercountry.com/roster/RulesEngagement.html

On this second one... read #2 and #3 twice!!  Hell, read the whole damn thing twice.

Try to lift the level of the Roster back up to where it was, and maybe the other guys will come back.

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'nuff said.

This place is like a Goddamn Roach Motel, nobody ever checks out :((

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'lito

CatShooter <