March 10, 2001 - March 14, 2001

Going to do the break in of my PSS this weekend, wish us luck =)

Anyone have suggestions for accessories either for the gun or shooting it in general that I might want to eventually get? I picked up one of those eagle stock packs, great recommendation guys! I love it and it puts my eye perfectly in line with the scope when I have cheek weld. I also picked up a Starlight case for my baby, however I can't get the middle two latches to close or open without the use of a crowbar. I'll have to give them a call Monday to see if I should send it back or if this is normal. Overall it's a very nice looking case and I like the handles and ridges for stacking much more than the Pelican Rifle case. Other things I know I'm going to get are an otis sniper cleaning kit, a good spotting scope, and probably an Eagle shooting mat. Any other suggestions you guys might have are always appreciated!

- The Good Jen

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Houston, Confusion, Texas - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 00:19:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.218.245.6)

Tom - .308 running out of steam before 1000 yards?...Hmm I don't know about that. I was shooting my .308Towed at Quantico on the 1000 yard line. Dudes in the pits (via radio) were giving me the impacts - and said the rounds sounded nice-n-supersonic passing overhead. No that's not an accurate chrono - but it's above XXXX feet per second.
This was black hills 175grn match, out of a 26" barrel.

Ken
Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 01:52:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Just saying what i think.

montrose
MONTROSE <bellm@constellation.navy.mil>
fpo , ap, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 02:16:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.56.145.38)

The latches on the Starlight case ARE a bitch to open and close. I think it's because of the friction-fit action. The two on the right of my case are the bad boys for me. It appears that with continued use, they are tending to loosen up some. The pressure valve has no bearing on how the latches function.

My knuckles are healing quite nicely now, thank you very much!

I also have bungee-corded a small rubber mallet to the case just in case! LOL

I carry my Remy 700 and my Colt R6551 in the case at the same time which makes for a heavy load but they don't move around in there. Now if I could only find a good Sherpa that works cheap! :-)

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 03:42:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.184)

Mike M is 100% right on the MP5. Sweet (the gun not that old frankenstein nuts and bolts creation)-but you do need FA to be effective. Train the finger to shoot short bursts, not the machine.

As to rifles being FA capable. I agree with Kevin eh?... There is a limited use for well trained officers with this tool. Note that Kevin alluded to a SWAT scenario, but he didn't go into detail. He is also right, well trained personnel with limited usage of that capability.
Regular patrol, if equipped with a rifle system, should be SA only. Shot placement..shot placement....shot placement.

Flash..you already know the reasons for the facemask (aka balclava). Stop busting balls dude!

Bravo beerski- I just got the Eagle version of that leg pouch without the grenade pouches...and it fits the magpul. Kevin OTGWN was the guy who first turned me on to those things. I think they or Blackhawk makes it in 308 sizes...

JC- I laughed so hard I really almost did ROTFLOL...........
Take care dudes-Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:02:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

The equivalent for .30 cal are 250 and 268 grainers that mimic the Sierra 220 Match King dimensions.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Michael Taylor <taylor2@cdsnet.net>
Grants Pass, Oregon, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:35:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.164.163.108)

1. what is the rifle being fired on the back cover of bob forker's AMMO & ballistics?

2.anyone remember "navy Seals" the movie? remember "GOD?" remember how he fired the m82 standing upright and it phased him not? remember how it's holywood and fake(though the toggle infared scope would be cool)? well, what would happen if some real(dumb or brave) person tried it? I am in no way reccomending it

3. in the movie "sniper", billy zane has a odd techie thing in his scope what is it and is it real?
3.2 in what scene is what legend ripped off?

4.if a .50bmg with 4-5 tons of energy at 200 yardscould somehow transfer all of that in to the average midsized sedan, would it A.flip the car b. rock the car. c. blow out the shocks and tires. d something else?

5. .50bmg PISTOL, true/false?

if you could shoot anything you wanted with any kind of gun/cartridge/bullet combo, what would it be? (you, know, fun stuff like fruit cars, bricks, deer ) mine'd be 2 galolons of jellied gasoline surrounded by flares(i have pics, don't ask)
 

ok this is my last thing of the whatever day it is

nitro_pb <nitro_pb@hotmail.com>
wv, ms, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 05:14:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.220.144.181)

Answer to question 3.2

What scene? = Where the enemy sniper was shoot threw the scope.

Legend that was ripped off? = Gunnery Sargent Carlos N Hathcock II
 

Montrose
MONTROSE <bellm@constellation.navy.mil>
fpo, ap, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 05:42:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.56.145.37)

The answer to your question depends, in part, on what you plan to do with your rifle.

If you're Law Enforcement looking for a duty gun, the Chandlers have made a cogent argument that 20 inches is better. The 20 inche rifle is lighter (by about a pound as I recall) and balances better. At typical LE ranges the difference in velocity is negligible. A shorter barrel on a lighter rifle also will make your stalk easier if that is part of your planned use.

On the other hand, if you're going to routinely be shooting at 1000m, then the 22 inch barrel may still be too short.

So, the bottom line is, What is the design mission?

Frances
Frances <francis.fitzpatrick@bakernet.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:08:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.53.242)

5. .50bmg PISTOL, true/false?

True.

Frances
 

Frances <francis.fitzpatrick@bakernet.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.53.242)

Just a note, the match letter is ready for this years Sniper Competition and Train-Up. Drop me an email and I'll push it right back to you. We already have a bunch signed up from last year.

I know one of you will be lighter on your feet this year...Right Elmer Fudd?

Rod
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.115.131)

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 07:01:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.74.9)

As far as the full auto thread:
I agree to a point. F/A's have little purpose in LE, because as it was pointed out, too hard to control and you run the risk of innocents getting killed.
But, I believe that M-4's with three round burst are very appropriate. If I had to go through a door on a felony warrant or known that the perp was heavily armed then that three round would be really nice to have and their have been many times that the bad guys did out gun the police.
When I was policing in the Ft. Worth area, we had a militia group who was heavily armed and very anti police and there had been problems with them.
I know I may get flamed on this but if I had to serve warrants on these extremeists type groups who ran afoul of the law, then a M249 or M240G would be ideall weapon to have. What the heck you gonna do, when you get pinned down by some extremeist group, who for whatever reason is gone out on the limb and drawn some serious attention to themselves, and has you outgunned? How are going to be able to unpinn yourself? Don't you want the ability to be able to bring unrelenting rain of lead to keep your butt alive?
Last I remember, calling up the military to go after civilian law breakers was against our constitution. We got to be able to pull our own butts out of the fire.
Now as far as BATF, they were wrong to procure all those big time weapons. They should have been put out of action years ago. That is one agency who has gone too far. I have had to deal with them on a personal basis and it was mighty uncomfortable to know they had a file on me and that was just so I could get a SN generated for a pistol.
Sorry to rant and take up bandwidth, I will step down off my soap box now.........and return you to your normal programming.

Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 10:20:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Pak
pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 10:33:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Extreamist groups? Darn if I can remember any big shoot-outs between them and the cops. (Waco doesn't count, IMHO, because in the first place it was the Feds, and secondly it never would have happened at all if experienced street cops had executed the warrant in a reasonable and prudent manner.)

Pakrat, you would have been right a year ago, since using the military against civilians was illegal then. But last summer the law was changed, supposedly to allow the military to combat potential terrorism here in the USA. Unfortunately, "potential terrorists/terrorism" wasn't very well defined, resulting in the military now having almost total freedom to intervene in domestic LE situations. This could be good, or bad, depending on what happens down the road.

Raid Masks:

Mike T, I know what masks are supposed to be for. But that reason doesn't hold water if there isn't any prior evidence of flamibles. What concerns me is that people in general are prone to do bad things when they believe their identity is concealed.

Take normally law-abiding people who find themselves in riot situations for example. The aninimity of being in a crowd encourages many to do bad things they wouldn't otherwise do.

The same can be said of KKK members when wearing masks. And armed robbers. And rapists. And......

That being the human case, masked government agents are not a good idea IMHO, except when they are facing a "real", PROVEN fire danger. Otherwise, allowing cops to wear identity concealing masks UNNECESSARILY is likely to lead to police excesses and abuse. Just as allowing the UNNECESSARY use of full-autos is.

I'm not breaking balls Mike, just being honest and realistic.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 12:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.11)

"Pakrat, you would have been right a year ago, since using the military against civilians was illegal then. But last summer the law was changed, supposedly to allow the military to combat potential terrorism here in the USA. Unfortunately, "potential terrorists/terrorism" wasn't very well defined, resulting in the military now having almost total freedom to intervene in domestic LE situations. This could be good, or bad, depending on what happens down the road."
 

Flash, please explain what law was changed and how it squares with the Constitution. I don't recall any new Constitutional amendments being passed recently. Of course, I might have been sleeping but friend Bravo would certainly have noticed! :)

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 13:33:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.29)

Sniper Foo Rant Mode returning to neutral.
 
 
 

Good Jen - Get the Eagle Drag Bag/ Mat combination (In Review) and BE HAPPY. Ask Patron Pablito about them if you don't believe me. Great for field carry, but lose them before commencing a stalk.
Both Slug Boy and Master Rick had some ASTUTE comments on them about two weeks ago (Archieves) that are definately worth reading.
 
 

Its Cardio time...............Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:22:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.212)

Select fire and LEO. No place on the street for a machine gun. Most of us can't hit dick with our hand gun, let alone a machine gun. Liability is too high for stray rounds to hit an innocent bystander. We are allowed to carry AR/Bushy with a low powered optic system. Also 9mm carbines with iron sights (a RRRRRRRRRRRRRUUURRRGGGGH carbine). .223 is largest caliber allowed.
 
 

Be safe.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:23:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.5.38)

Select fire and LEO. No place on the street for a machine gun. Most of us can't hit dick with our hand gun, let alone a machine gun. Liability is too high for stray rounds to hit an innocent bystander. We are allowed to carry AR/Bushy with a low powered optic system. Also 9mm carbines with iron sights (a RRRRRRRRRRRRRUUURRRGGGGH carbine). .223 is largest caliber allowed.
 
 

Be safe.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.5.38)

Rod, that rifle became what is known as the .308Towed (my wife named it). Since then, all the deviling that I took, lead to most of the heavy rifles in this crowd being known as 'towed rifles'

Ask Pablito about 'towed' rifles....once he gets his .50 out of jail

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 15:07:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

check the link for Swiss Munitions, I visited their booth at the IWA show yesterday. Good stuff. They will send some samples for my next Class.

..............

Pretoria Metal Presses ( PMP)

I just bought a case of 1.400 surplus 155 Grain 7,62X51 at 18 Cents a pop. Marius any info on this stuff ?

I was looking at fodder for my "hole in the barrel, case throwing, M14"

t
click here for Swiss Munitions Website <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 15:13:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.151)

Pakrat, live in the DFW area......what militia group/s were you guy's having problems with......
Don't recall any problems with Militia groups around the metroplex.???

Flash, except of undercover ops, and the aforementioned fire scenarios.....you are dead on.

Only the Lone Ranger got to wear a mask.......And Zorro.

Mask's usually only remind me of one thing....Hoodlums, and thieves........nuff' said.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:00:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.182)

Thanks for the help

Andy
Andy Mussack <scoutsniper15@yahoo.com>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:34:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.53)

What do you call the white or light brown face above the blue or black vest? Target indicator.... Unless you would prefer a facepaint.
That smacks of militarization. Further, people spray all sorts of stuff at us nowadays. I would try to protect my skin a bit. The Avon lady just doesn't sell a makeup that suits me............

However, I agree that a mask may be used unnecessarily(the cool factor?). A SWAT raid is not one of those times though. To conceal a UC identity-definatly.
To go on a call to break up a loud crowd? NO. When (if) it turns into a riot- YES. . Protection is the key.

Honestly- I wear a green or white insulated one while sniping in the cold season for warmth. Perhaps you guys understand my reasoning now.

Packrat- No S*&$!!! Have you guys ever tried the 12 ga. launchable flashbangs?

Mike T

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:39:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Don’t even get me started on BATF!

Nitro – Have shot it standing a bunch of times especially when I have to give demos. It si easier on my old body. Have also shot the 14.5mm standing and it does not phase me a bit. I weighed in at an astounding 165 at that time.

OK, rant off and waiting for the call for fire.

OH YES, no part of the constitution prevents the army form doing police work. As a matter of fact the militia was used regularly for that function. That is the reason for the statement of a “well regulated militia, being necessary for a free state”. Now think in terms of the unregulated (or uncontrolled if you will) and you have a POLICE state. Kinda like cops with full auto and no regulator valve on when to use them. :-) The police departments did not come into effect until the 19th century. Posse Comutatis (sp?) is a law passed to keep the military from working as law enforcement agencies, except in the event of national emergency and martial law is declared.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 17:01:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.181)

The lsraeli Krav Maga was orginally founded in WWII in the Warsow ghetto by some jewish resistance fighters. They did not have time to train their people for years but they had only days. These people fought the nazis with bare hands until they got enough weapons and they fought them with those wepaons some more. Nazis killed most of the jews in Warsow but the founder of Krav Maga did escape. He died a few years ago in Israel, he was close 90 years old when he died.

I have trained the civilian version for 18 months beofre my job statrted to take too much time. I have trained TaeKwondo for four years and one of the tougher version of Ju-Jutsu (Hokutoryu) for 2 years. I would say that of thiose arts if you want to learn how put the attacker down and out in the shortest possible time, Krav Maga is the ticket.

Krav maga is not pretty and it is not a good sport because it concetrates on the core of self defense. Therefore as a sport (for good condition etc.) other martial arts are better. It does not even look nice but it is effective.

For self defense Krav maga is VERY good but the liability side is problematic. Killing or disabling the attacker for good is not very appropriate in many jurisdictions. Depends of course on the type of attack and circumstances.

There are two (or three) versions of Krav Maga. The mildest version is tought to civilians for self defense purposes. This is tough enough for self defense. For military and police there is an advanced style that involces the usage of firearms and knives. The third version is an even more advanced version of the military krav maga. The concetration in this version is to use Krav Maga in the offensive. Basically most of the stuff is various assasination or prisoner snatch tehcniques. Or so I have understood it because I have not attended these courses.

If you want to learn proper Krav Maga, find out a teacher that is certified by the Krav Maga Association from Israel. If he is not certified, he is a fake.

For general self defense training and condition building I would rate Hokutoryu Ju-Jutsu better than Krav Maga. The techniques are also a little bit easier on the attacker. I would not want to explain to the jury that "I had to crush his throat because I did not know anything else to do". Ju-Jutsu gives you more options in thsi regard. Of course there are lots of different martial arts so these are not the only ticket, but I fel Krav Maga and Ju-Jutsu are the best for self defense in the new millenium.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 17:09:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.120.45)

Sorry to burn space with only one sniper related topic, but I(obviously) have some strong opinions on this.

MikeT, I have to question the logic of throwing multiple(or even one) flashbangs into a school bus. I'm assuming you expect to have it loaded full of kids. I've driven those things full of kids before, and that just seems like a very "Bad Idea"(TM)

BTW, question for Undude. Did you attend the HRST course at Camp Pendelton, maybe two or three years ago? If so, could you please E-mail me. I think we might know some of the same people. Semper Fidelis...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 17:34:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

For Break In does it really matter what kind of ammo you use assuming you're using standard rounds vs molly coated? Basically should I be using my Federal Gold Medal Match for the break in or would any off the shelf rounds work?
 

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Houston, TX, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 18:24:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.218.245.6)

LE F/A it was not for street use - but for Tac/ERT/SWAT issues.
I know some people have issues about the militarization of LE, I still feel that their are some applications for F/A fire in LE ERT work. As far as the Colt M4 goes - their burst system sucks huge - so the options are semi only or semi&auto.
Our British friends use it in their Entry work - as do a lot of other Mil teams.

I will attempt a more detailed version of my previous officer down scenario.
ERT serves a warrant on a suspected drug lab. They have already set up inner and outer perimeters and ensure that the neighbours have been evac'd. Four team mbrs approach the dwelling - when fire errupts -since the team had only one sniper (manpower issues) he was not able to give detailed obs. three constables go down. The uninjured member attempts to toss a flashbang into the blown out window, and perimeter team members then proceed to fire short bursts while other team members sprint forward to recover the injured.

Most teams up here have only one sniper per team (no trained S/O combo either) I don't agree with that either but I don't command a LE agency.

I will know let this go away.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 18:25:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Flash and Two Shoes- I totally disagree with you on your statements that the balaclavas are unnecesssary, especially for SWAT operations.
You both agree on flammability issues and (I assume both) U/C work. They are a great idea for normal SWAT operations due to several reasons including:
1)Glass shards, door framing splinters etc flying around.
2)Remember that bad guys have developed an alarming tendency to have liquid based nasty stuff to spray on the officers also. Would you prefer some protective cloth or the latest base makeup form the Avon lady for this?
3) What do you call the white or light brown face sticking up above the dark blue armor? Target indicator! I would try not to point out a vulnerable spot for bad guys to shoot at. Unless camo paint would be preferable....not.
4) Intimidation. Whether you wish to agree or not, if you can scare the bad guys enough they can stop what they are doing. Safer for them, safer for me.

I view it as a piece of protective gear. Would you take away the goggles or protective glasses from the guys because it obscures their face?
Honestly, I use a green or white balaclava when the cold season hits-for warmth. I kind of doubt I will intimidate them from the inside of a bush 150 yards away.

Is a balaclava needed (or even a good idea) for regular police work. Absolutly not. Both of you are dead on here IMHO. Just don't paint everything into a corner without seeing the reasons first.

Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 19:18:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

PMP (Pretoria Metal Pressings) make the ammunition for the South African military. If the ammo you bought is standard military there is nothing wrong with it. It is most definately not the most accurate, but then show me official military ammunition that is. But you need not worry - it will not blow up your rifle.

Terry,
Man, but you are complimentary! First you laugh at 'Lito's idea of me getting upset with him, and now you're calling me a commie. What next? A Clinton supporter?

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 19:27:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.117)

As far as ID-We have had contracts put out by gangbangers on some of our guys and the next city over had the same thing happen. They even put out a contract on the police friendly prosecutor. Guess who was not named and so weren't concerned. JUDGES. (actually-to be fair- some were concerned. Just not most)We just prioritized our lists and took care of business. The jails got filled up.

The gol darned court system needs a total revamp. OPen season on lawyers!!LOL!!
Not to give you the wrong impression, but even the Mafia had a "hands off the family" policy. The gangs now look at families as the legitimate targets. If a bad guy wants to go after me, come and get me. If a bad guy targets a family...all bets are off.

Rick- Speed, surprise, severity of assault. And IMHO Nomex is real good for transmitting heat...Actually- IMHO, the military is, to their detriment, becoming more like the police. They are being sent in to learn less lethal techniques and raid tactics that police use.
If there is a war-send in the troops and give them all their tools. Do not restrict their ROE them to use them to enforce UN decrees in Upper South Yak country. Rant off-too much bandwidth.
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 19:41:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Thanks
JR <abunaix@earthlink.net>
Redondo Beach, CA, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 19:56:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.152.20.33)

For those of you who don't visit the Home Page (WHY NOT?!?), I hav ejust posted peteR's Lapua Reloading Manual review, and also Mike's Nightforce NXS review - two more to come a bit later.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 20:45:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.168)

I surely wouldn't call you a commie......(:

Mr. Mandella is the one I have problems with......
And his ex wife...... The Goodyear tire and rubber queen Queen.

As for lito's comment it was darn funny......like a school kid, and Dad was gonna get on his butt....you know lito'...he has a special "knack", and way of putting things!!!!!!!

Really, no offense intended or directed at you.......
I don't even know you!!!
Or, Torsten....got him twisted also.......sorry.

Sorry if I stepped outa line....I just am a little "opinionated", at times.
It goes back to the embargo, Krug's were not imported,Boycott, the screws were being turned by the Intl community....
I saw/see it as PC........
Between the Feminazi's, The NOW gang, and the other left wingers.I have a tender side when I see the Intl community getting invoved in other nations affairs.......unless there is a mass genocidal issue.....
Kinda like, Serbia, and Croatia.....we went in there balls to the wall..
Of course that was inour "National", interest.

Where was the Intl community, when the Tutsi's, and the Hutus(sp), were committing mass genocide.......????.
Wrong color, wrong country..........

Of course, every one has the right to their own opinion...even if it may be wrong......

Sorry for the political rant........Back to Sniper Country.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 20:47:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.213)

Pakrat: glad to know you gave us the respect we deserved. Yes, as a DFW boy, I was part of the militia you mentioned. And yes, there were anti-cop sentiments. Why? 'Cause I just happened to be there when one of ours was executed by the Arlington cops. They said he was "armed and acting eratically". DUH, we were "in our cups" that night, just leaving the pub, and he was walking down the street (driving is illegal and immoral when drunk). Oh, and they never identified themselves as cops, just started issuing orders. That was before the shooting started. All of the shooting was by the cops, as our guy was completely unarmed, not even a pocketknife. The illegal harassment was obscene. We are all lucky that I was young and stupid at the time, if I'd known then what I know now, there would be many less enemies of the free republic now, especially in the peoples republic of Arlington. All legally of course. It should be noted that such offense was taken to our goals (liberty, freedom, civil rights, an end to tyranny and other nasty things), that the pub we met in was closed down by the city, forcably. However, there was one guy in our gunclub, a swat cop from North Richland Hills, that looked into it significantly. He never said a negative word about it to me. Maybe that's 'cause most were the definition of "PATRIOTS". By the way, it was because of these problems with the murderous gungho local ordinance enforcement officers that I carried a full sized battle rifle with me at all times. I figured that they might try to murder me next. Oh, and "ran afoul" of "the law". As long as "the law" is defined as "the local ordinance enforcements whims". At the time, as now, having a loaded rifle in ones vehicle was legal. Until someone got messed with, because "he had no reason to have a rifle". But I'm sure they were really good men, just "misunderstood". But that was a good enough reason to ask to search the vehicle. Which was legally refused. So he got to wait a couple of hours while they got a warrant. While handcuffed like a common criminal. Of course, there was nothing there, but they "confiscated" the rifle anyway. Why? No laws broken, but "he had no reason to have a rifle". 3 years later the DA dropped the all charges and the case, notably 4 minutes before the trial started.

I'm far from anti-PEACE OFFICER, but I'm way anti-attrocity and tyranny. It might not apply to you, but heed this well: you guys start carrying or using full auto anything, you're going to see way more than you did. That's pretty much a promise, 'cause most aren't PEACE OFFICERS. I can guarentee you this too, NOBODY likes having a weapon pointed at them, and they like it even less if they're deemed "not worthy" of trusting with anything greater than a battle rifle and you're pointing with a submachinegun or sturmgeweher.

As for masks, I *DO* understand the real reason you guys wear them, and I agree, some protection to the face is EXTREMELY justifyable. But I live life a little different. Bro Two SHoes brought up the lone ranger, and that's great, but you remember that EVERYONE drew on him first, 'cause of the mask. That's a NORMAL reaction. What's that reaction get you in real life? DEAD. "well, he drew at us first!". Yeah. I live soundly in the camp of Jeff Cooper, who says that a mask IS a target indicator. I'm a peaceable guy, and wouldn't shoot anyone unless I had no choice, but in the middle of the night, where the confusion is the highest (designed that way by the bump and thump gurus), am I realistically going to see that little bitty "POLICE" or the mask on the face? Eyes naturally try to find EYES. Is there gonna be lots of shouting and yelling to add to my confusion? Also designed that way. Personally, I think I'd opt for the bioshield, and take my chances. Friendly fire doesn't become nonlethal fire. After all, it's much easier for me to roll 90 degrees onto the CAR and open fire than it is to ask over the thump, bump, and yelling "what are you doing in my home? Are you police or home invaders? Do you have an open warrant signed by a local magistrate?" Not with full autos coming in the door.

RANT MODE OFF

Friend Moe: yup, Master Rick is 100%, it changed. Instead of the military not being allowed to deploy on our soil, now they're allowed to fight terrorists and work drug stuff. Another casualty in our "war on drugs", the American Way. That's why you saw those Army slicks at Waco. Don't worry though, our politicians are good, honest, law abiding people that only have our best intentions in mind. I'm sure these shackles are light, and don't limit us TOO much.

Marius: I'd *NEVER* call you a commie, and I don't think that was the purpose of the statement of bro Two Shoes. I will, however, call mandella a commie any time, and a suspected terrorist as well. How does one have executed and tortured students in ones home and NOT know?

Friend Mike: sounds like you took care of business quite right! Hourah for the good guys. There's one thing I won't accept from ANYONE, and that's domestic terrorism. I've got animousity of dope runner gangs to spare. On lawyers, I think Bill Shakespeare had it checkmate-in-one.

Guess this is what happens when there's snow on the ground and burn in my muscles. Sorry for the bandwidth usage. Hopefully, we can ALL figure out how to live peaceably together. Maybe that "walk a mile in the other guys shoes" thing. Mine are size 7 desert boots ;-) Maybe I ought to slide back into lurk mode for a while now that I've got stuff "stirred up".
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, where ordinance enforcement officers enforce unconstitutional UN laws, the UN occupied zone called the USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 20:51:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.194)

Back to sniper foo!!

We are looking at upgrading our cold weather gear. Basically newer Gore-tex with appropriate underclothes or a version of wool hunting clothes.
The team is looking at the Gore-tex for rain/wet weather protection.
Military guys swear by this.
The wool is quieter and warm by itself but not waterproof. Hunters swear by this.
For a sniper hide in the snow what has worked out best for those in the know. Remember -what is best for a long time of lying still.
Kevin eh? You might, just might, have dealt with snow! LOL!!

Thanks-Mike T
 
 
 
 

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 21:50:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Do any of you have the , or used the NF 5.5x22, NPR1 scope and reticle set up??..

If so, what is your opinion......
Especially as compared to the MK4M1's.....I know they are two different animals.......

But, I am desiring a scope to do LR target and figure the OLD style NF scope to be better than the New NXS.........( problematic, so I have heard).
Before any of you go off on me....I know about the archives..and I doubt this question is posed there.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 21:53:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.53)

i'm done
nitro_pb <nitro_pb@hotmail.com>
wv, ms, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 22:43:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.220.144.212)

John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 23:26:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.174.4)

"i am confused and bothered..."

Yes inded!

One "4" shot group, does not an accurate rifle make.

The difference between a $460 "El Cheepo" outfit, and a $2000 to $4000 rifle, is profound.

Take your outfit out with the Remington Core-Loks, and shoot a 10 shoot group, and let us know how big it is... not the best 4 out of 10, but the whole 10... and do it again, and again... shooting five 10 shot groups, and tell us the size of your WORST GROUP... that is the capability of your rifle... not the best 4 out of the entire afternoon.

Take a bunch "Neco-Wafers" and stick them on a target with a drop of glue... do about 50, and tell me how many you can hit... by just taking your rifle out of the bag, and start shooting... first shot counts... oh, by the way... every 5 shots, turn the elevation up 20 clicks, down 40 clicks, and up 20... and the windage, left 20, right 40, left 20... and keep on shooting again. do that elevation/windage thing every 5 shots (it'll let your barrel have a chance to cool ;).

Let us know how you do!!!

"... why is there so much randomness and hypocracy surounding accuracy?"

I don't know where the idea of "hypocracy" comes into it, but at the low ($340) end of the spectrum, there are a lot of variables that effect accuracy. At the high end of the spectrum, the variables have been reduced, or removed completely.

"If guns are so innacurate from the factory as to warent immeadiate fixing befre they can hit paper( which is the feeling i get from many gun writers) than why are they still made that way?"

Because there are thousands of guys want to spend $340 for a gun (but want hand fitted accuracy of a $2000 to $4000 rifle).

"If oyu bought chairs and had to adjust all the legs, every time you bought one, do you think you'd accept that? no, you'd spend
alot more and get one that sits a little better, if not perfect."

Then "spend a lot more for one that shoots a little better, if not perfect!!"

"... the phrase "out of the box accuracy" pisses me off."

Then shop a little higher up on the food chain of riffles!
There are rifles that have "out of the box accuracy"... read the Archives, they have been talked about here... but you don't get them for $340, at "Wally-world", or as a K-Mart's "Blue light special"

"i'm done"

Me too ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 23:44:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.119)

My thoughts on drug labs would be toss in a WP and get out the marshmellows.

John it is common to sight black iron sights
 

Mike T gortex is the cats ass - but I personally like it as a mid level garment in a tactical situation. It can be noisy and shiny etc.
But it is much better than any of the other options out there
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 23:50:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

That being said I got a really good BH story for the campfire (and Bravo brew) at Mike's class in July

YOU DON'T GET IT BOTH WAYS

JUST like the longhairedtreehuggingsandalwearingdopesmokingfriendsofJesus
who demanded the military go to Somalia, Rwanda etc. to save all the staving kids - then get all choked at the military for shooting some bugger

One or the other, not both

RANT OFF

I will now attempt to ignore all socio-political comments and devote it to sniping topics.
 
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 00:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Druglabs: I don't have any experience in drug labs, unless you count a legal pharmaceutical lab ;-) The stuff used in them makes gasoline look like lamp oil. You get any of the major organic solvents around any kind of source, you've got a fireball that'll take up way more space than a WP grenade. Seriously. That's why all the good (read LEGAL) labs have ventilation systems that you wouldn't believe. One doesn't take notes IN the hoods, the papers suck up through the ceiling. Oh, and the "P" in "WP", is one of the major ingredients in the common dope.

Mike, my great friend, of course there's PLENTY of room for opposing opinions! And if I think one thing, and you think I'm nuts for thinking that, you'll just have to hold your tongue while I pour Bravo Brew down your throat ;-) Seriously, I wouldn't think of telling you how to do your job, not in the least. I won't armchair quarterback it! On the winter gear, I've been using the goretex parka for years. It's one of the best things on bikes to cut the wind, and I *LOVE* it in the snow. I only have 2 complaints. First off, it's noisy. You can hear most every motion you make while you wear it. Second off, it's in woodland camo, I'd prefer desert ;-) After about a year or so, the stitching started unraveling, so my wife sewed it up HARD. And I still wear it, virtually daily in this crap weather (it's STILL snowing NOW!!!).
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Dangerous?, I'm not dangerous, that's Wild Bill's group!, in the UN occupied zone called the USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 00:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.150)

Get a good thermal break to lay on if you are going to be in the snow for a while, and LOTS!!!!!!!!!!!! if hand warmers.

I have found the GI Gore tex too noisy for my tate for winter use.

Hope this helps..

Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 00:11:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

Click on my name and take a look... Any guesses as to what Im up to? Quiet Pablito.... No - it does not involve explosives.

Ken
Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Workin' on a Project, in chilly Northern Va, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 01:56:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 01:58:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.30)

That opinion is based on 13 years as a military brat and 23+ years in law enforcement, "mustanged" up from corrections to administrations and now currently running a road shift.

I don't see the need for select fire F/A weapons for LE, except for special units, and even then they're over-rated. Spray and pray has no place in a community.

IMHO....
CVDRIVER <Brownsilva@aol.com>
Cold & Damp, FL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 02:27:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.154)

Thanks

LTC Ray Hatmaker USA Ret
R Hatmaker <RGHAT@AOL.Com>
Loudon, TN, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 02:57:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.53)

Re 15 is a good powder for the 175/308 combo, but burns a bit dirty.
 

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:20:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.30)

Active and Reserve component United States Armed Forces cannot participate in domestic (civilian) law enforcement operations, period. We can provide advice and equipment, but we do not assist in planning nor in execution. Unless deputized, we have no powers of arrest.

If we snatch a knucklehead like a "Person Indicted for War Crimes" he is handed over to an FBI agent. A fugitive drug runner gets passed to the DEA (remember the tapes of Noriega on the plane with all the blue windbreaker guys?).

Mir Aimal Kansi (the knucklehead who shot three CIA staffers dead as they sat in rush hour traffic) was snatched by the FBI in Pakistan. The killers of DEA agent Enrique Camarena in Mexico were snatched by locals and passed directly to the DEA.

In those instances where all federal law enforcement entities cannot handle a situation exceeding all civilian abilities, the Attorney General of the United States so states in writing to the president.

The president then signs an Executive Order passing control of that domestic situation to the military for a fixed, defined period, by law, as the Commander-in-Chief. Once the situation is finished, control is ORDERED back to the Attorney General (scary, considering the last administration, huh?).

The National Guard works for the Governor of the respective state until federalized by the president for national emergencies (Title 32 of the US Code, vice Title 10 for Active Forces). The National Guard CAN actively support law enforcement entities within their states as ordered by their governors in both training and in operations.

Please don't send up inflammatory bullshit you may have thought up in your fertile imaginations.

A concerned soldier who has worked these issues at Pentagon (Joint Staff) Operations.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:23:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

You are mak'in a swingin steel target with a pipe stand?
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
glendale, AZ, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:25:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.175)

Been smelling too much Shoo Gooo today, BoLt oUt~
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:31:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.210)

LTC – the “Ballistic Hollow Point” has been approved for military use since 1990. It was found not to wound in such a grievous manner as to be outlawed by the conventions. Actually it wounds the same as the FMJ and is why it is not the round of choice when deer hunting. Thi sis why ‘Lito goes crazy when youngens ask about the Match Kings for hunting. :-)

On the front sight, another technique is called the line of white hold after blackening the front sight to make it stand out better. I use it for the 600 and I use the frame hold for 1000. Of course if my eyes get any worse I will be using the venerable “guess hold”

Well, will end this tonight as a short post. Hold hard fuys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:49:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.189)

This issue was layed to rest by Hays Parks a number of years ago. If you want to see the actual copies of the approval and supporting paperwork look in the "Death From Afar" Series.

Seems these rounds are "closed" and not considered HP's of Dum-Dum's, etc.

Personally, I've never understook why it's not OK to use hollow points, but it's OK to drop napalm...IMHO.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:49:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.48)

Hold hard GUYS!

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Dumbville , head up ***, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:50:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.189)

Looks like a fixture to catch some towed .50's to me.........

Two shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:05:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.181)

HIT!..... dang dude.. you got that one first try.... You and I must be plugged into the same cosmic channel...that or you're just plain smart :)

Anyhow... Jim and others... click on my name again for the next evolution of 'Betty' - yes - this thing's name is gonna be 'Betty'
No - it's not done...

Ken ;)
 

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Virginia, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

I agree with the drug ASSISTANCE statutes (which is why the Justice Department / FBI lied and said they needed military helicopters that would otherwise not have been provided, because they implied Koresh's place also had a drug lab). But some people think cops can pick up a phone and you get whatever military task force you need to conduct a massive expedition or campaign against militias or minority groups, or raids in your home city to whack terrorists.

Think about it, folks, You have a massive wave of brush fires in your state, and the Army provides soldiers to put out fires and C-130s to drop fire retardant. Those are military operations. Would you rather we didn't do them?

I was talking about folks who think you have active soldiers surrounding Ruby Ridge, or driving the helicopters and CEVs at Waco, or arresting folks in the inner city in drug raids. I'll throw the bullshit flag and call for 25 yards.
 

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:31:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Sounds like they threw flashbangs into the bus to me. Maybe I'm not reading it right. Maybe Pakrat can expand on it. Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:36:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

Ken - Why, that's the tripod and ground anchor system for your new 50BMG-TOWED!

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:42:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.199)

Dave Liwanag, I'm not sure what the US Army or their Reserve is doing, but the USMCR is looking very hard, at least on the staff side, at a "homeland defense" mission for the USMCR. What exactly that involves, I don't know. I do know that for a period, the platoon was training the urban mission pretty hard, now we're back to doing green ops, with a Bosnia/Kosovo urban training flavor at times. What I did recommend, was that if the police expected to do a raid that would turn into "The siege of firebase Gloria" it might be real wise, to call up the local Guard unit and start making some liason, in case the feces hits the air circulator. This is fully within the law(as I understand it) and most of the Guard guys I've worked with(admittedly not grunts, Blackhawk helo guys) were fairly squared away. I don't fly with idiots, and I was comfortable flying with these guys. Did some NOE stuff on insert that was pretty cool. Anyhow, you need F/A. Call the Guard, put 'em on stand-by, as a react force, 500-700m off site, in HUMV's. Can't speak for the Guard, but the USMCR would have guys lined up to volunteer for that duty. Not all Walter Mitty types, either. All you tinfoil hat types, don't get bent outta shape with the military oppressing the people. My Bn CO knows that the guys in the platoon would probably shoot his ass if he tried something un-Constitutional, and honestly, I don't have any fears of him doing so. The military generally still has the God, duty, country, Corps ethos instilled in it's members. It's mostly the Fed LE types I worry about.

Getting back to Kevin OTGWN's thing. I have found that F/A is no good for suppression unless you're talking belt fed, tripod mounted stuff(Bipod is OK for SAW with good gunner). That's if you actually want rounds to hit somewhere around the target. Me, I like hits. I use fast aimed semi-auto. I was putting bullets through a bunker firing aperature at 250m with an issued M16A2 from a concealed prone, no problem. F/A would have been a waste of time. Given an ACOG, I would have been headshooting the guys in the bunker. Yes, I'm damned good(and humble too), but it's not unreasonable to expect even moderately trained officers to make 200m shots on BG's with an ACOG equipped rifle. Police almost always have the BG's outnumbered, not all the officers are going to be under fire. Those that aren't have to shoot the BG's(or even suppress them with aimed fire) so that the officers under fire can be recovered. I see that as a better option to having somebody go F/A. Snipers would be my first choice. Not totally useless info. Maybe some police types can use this to justify more snipers(or DM's) Semper Fidelis...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 05:07:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

Okay folks... here are all the pics and the latest evolution of 'Betty'.

The plate is 3/4" x 25" x 25" steel... yes it's very heavy....I have a tradition to keep up ya know. The frame is black iron pipe and some galvanized water pipe where home depot didn't have the black iron.

The smaller top axle goes all the way thru the 1" outer axle. You transport this pig with a dolly cart. Very easy to move downrange then.

I will work on the grid template that is to be painted on it - and each time the paint needs to be refreshed.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 05:18:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

And just for the record, I take a size small, mostly crumpled, tinfoil insert for my boonie ;-) JUST JOKING!! It's really a size medium! HA! Ghillie tinfoil?! Maybe Gucci would market it for me.......
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 05:41:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.91)

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 05:49:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

OK Undude. I have a question about what you say about the super sling let me read you a direct quote from a Cabelas Catalog. "one-hand adjustment is a great advantage for shooters who use there SLINGS as a shooting brace. One tug lengthens or shortens, then locks at any position." Now this sling is designed to function the same way as some of the older military slings that acted as a brace to aid in accuracy. Now I may be wrong and this may not be a funtional sling like I said. Maybe I think sling means one thing and you think it means another. But with my experiance with this "SLING" not just a "CARRY STRAP". but hey I might be wrong, but if you were wrong and this is a sling, like I think it is did you just make a "FOOL" out of yourself. Please someone since I have no idea what a sling is or what it does could someone please explain it to me other than undude, because he seems to be better at childish name calling rather than explaining the error of my ways.
JC I understand that the Dragons Breath is expencive, but I thought that I might treat myself to a pack since I can get a pack down here for $13(which is still steep) vs. the $20 some odd that everyone else talks about. I know it might be a waist of money, but sometimes waisting money can be fun if it is something you are just playing with (not something like a scope. bad scopes are bad :( )
Ta Ta for now
Charlie

Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
Jonesboro, AR, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 06:06:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.191.252.6)

Does anyone remember or have the web site that was posted here about a month ago, put a user to the Israeli Sharpshooters Association or something to that effect? I need to link up to it to do some research. I have a person who claims he was an Israeli Army sinper working in the heart of the Bekka (sp?) Valley in 1984. I was under the impression the regular IA stayed out of the heart of the valley so I want to see if this character is a fake or not. Anyone have good info to add to or refute this claim?

Also, off topic, did anyone receive a letter from H&K, date 1 January 2001, in which a LEO could get a USP 40 Compact package for $549? I got one in the mail today from ASLET selling my name to them (that irritates me to some degree, but, another story). Looks good and I like H&K USP series pistols although I need another handgun like I need a hole in my head . . .

Info appreciated all! Thanks!

Morris
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 08:39:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.39.130.16)

Wife is thoroughly convinced yours truely has gone around the bend...

Drug my parachute bag and associated "war gear" down to my office and started putting together my pack. Something that she hasn't seen me do since I retired in '94. She's wondering if I'm running away or some such. Personally, I'm to old for that and if I was I'd be doing it with a gal half my age in a red sports car...not with an ALICE Medium on my back!

Piled some essentials with the pack and noted I reached for my Gore-Tex "stealth suit". This goes under your outer wear and as such is quieter than the military standard Gore-Tex. I've used it since '89 and had good luck with it. Like all Gore-tex you'll overheat if exerting yourself, but for laying still or stalking it's worked well.

I've been using it with one of the Russian "Spetznatz" jump suits or my IR/Computer pattern issue gear and wearing poly-pro insulated undies under it. It seems to keep me toasty. I recommend it highly.
Makes your counterparts think your an "iron man" when you come in wet and bedragled with a grin on your face...

Also, noticed that my essentials have added a few things for creature comfort that I didn't use to pack. We'll, at 50, and now a "grumpy old toad", I'm allowed. Frankly, my use goes more towards hunting/stalking now and that is probably how I'll build my pack.

Want to keep the pack and rifle load to under 50 lbs...

Anyone know where I can get a nubile buxom 5'2" Nordic type for a spotter...;-)

Range day Sunday...get some time behind the 6.5 X .284, again.

Semper Fi,

Wes
(Waiting for the M25)

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 10:39:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.50)

Two shoes
The group was located outside of............city west of Lakeworth? Dang, can't remember. Was working for the next largest town west of Azle at the time when the incident occured. We got an indepth bulletin on it. Appears a LAWFULL traffic stop occured, turd said he does not recognize police officers and it went south from there. Evidently got pretty ugly but thankfully no one was shot. This was back in '95. Been awhile.

Mike T
NO havent seen launcable flash bangs, could be interesting!

Bravo
Sir, it is with deepest respect that I say this. I know our goverment does quirky things, I still get hacked at what they did to us in the Storm. But I tend to think that you might be just a wee paranoid.
My dad-in-law is the same exact way.
If you are not breaking the law, then you will not see us standing at your door ready to slam and bam. Yes, I know it has happened, mistakes to occur, unfortunately. But for the most part our itell is right and we do happen to get it right a good majority of the time. Look at all the drugs that are seized and dirt bags who are taken off the street because..........TAA DAAA....THEY ARE DIRT BAGS!
Yes, I am leery of our guberment but I do not sweat it. If they want me they know where to get me but it won't be free ride. Git the drift?
I cannot and will not account for those officers who pooped in the chili but for the most part most of us are just working joes who have been called into the field and attempt to put in a days good work, so that the average mom, dad and little curtian climber can sleep somewhat safe at night. If I can go to work and take a drunk off the streets and keep them from killing you or some elses family then I have done my job and I can lay my head down on my pillow in the afternoon, sleep well and still be able to look at myself in the mirror the next day.
F/A (briefly) - time and time again, SRT/SWAT officers have used a full auto MP5 or M-4 and done the job that was needed without hosing down the neighborhood. What you do in training is what you will do in combat? Sounds famailiar? Don't it? All most all SRT officers have a large amount of training and experience and have shown that they are quite adept at using these tools. You don't hear about all the good take downs, even if the BG was shot? You only hear of the occasional bad take down where the news sensationalized it. There are thousands of take downs, hostage rescues, warrants served every year with maybe a .001 percent of a bad shot going down range. Gentleman, it is all in the training.

As the most astute members say : RANT MODE OFF!
I got a report to do, because........TAA DAA.........I will be sleeping good this afternoon!

My apologies for taking up so much space. I bid you all a fair adooo!

Pakrat
 
 
 

Pakrat <pafamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 11:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Man, I didn't think I'd get THAT response. Only when I looked at it after I posted did I see I forgot the smiley, and thought "What the heck, let him sweat a bit!" :-)

No offense meant or taken.

Getting back to our commie. Mandela? Communist, and I'm not even scared to say so. Though not so hard-core as one might have thought. And Mbeki really looked at the start to have some more savvy than he's displayed during his stay in office. Man, he's made so real booboos. But then, we have a saying in Afrikaans, which roughly translated goes as follows: "Even if an ape should wear a golden ring, it still is an ugly thing." For the persons under discussion I would replace "ugly" with "stupid".

Now there, now you have my sentiments. And also why I will not have anything to do with our current military. They might not be all like that, especially not the old guard, but they're being worked out and replaced with more "monkeys".
 
 

Getting back on topic though. Yesterday I did some work in the garden, and trimmed the palm trees. Those bastards with the spikes for leaves the first couple closest to the stem. And got punctured in quite a few places. The most noticably one under the thumb, which throbs like hell, and the other one the one I'm on about now.

In the palm, at the base of the trigger finger, right in the fold, dead center, into the muscle/nerve. If I were to go out shooting now pulling that trigger will be very difficult and painful. Unfortunately I'm not, but it still got me thinking.

What would a deployed sniper, out on a mission, do in such a case? Stupid/unlucky enough to severely damage the trigger finger. It is not out of commission, but nearly so. A shot presents itself and has to be taken, and there's no one else about to do it.

-Try and take the shot with that finger, and risk blowing it?
-Try and take the shot using the middle finger as the trigger finger?

Do you guys ever prepare for that? Do you practise sometimes to shoot with a different finger?

Was just wondering. When I was an officer in the Artillery, in planning, we were always told: "Plan for the worst and hope for the best."

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 11:58:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.129)

Pak
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Briefly, I promise, TX, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 12:03:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Mike T. - I kinda take it for granted people who do this can dress for the cold inclement weather. But I recall a lecture I got during a trip down south - and remembered you guys don't always live it (grow up in it)- and also some of the dumb ass stuff recruits can do - hell even some supposedly in the know people (I F**Ked it huge once and five of us almost didn't come back from the cold). I try to remember things like that, when I really want to tune out a lecture because Hey I Know THAT - What was it? Always the Student Sometimes the Teacher. The big infalible leader ploy works right up till it doesn't and then your troops never trust you again - especially when someone was suggestign the correct course of action a while back!

I alway like to layer so you can add or delete depending upon activity level and the surrounding weather.
SWEAT-->FREEZE-->DIE
I like a nice Polypro or light fleece layer on the bottom - the green acetate(SP?) shirt and pants from one version of the US ECWSystem - then a heavier Fleece or similar then the G-Tex. Like Wes said the Stealth suit is great to maintain exterior cam (plus your buddies think your the man all drenched etc. and still soldiering on) I like the Brit Gortex shells as they are a lot more lighten and plyiable than either the Canadian or US versions (plus the DPM has a higher LCF -look cool factor)

Anyway I got to go pop some caps
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 12:17:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Awesome Idea! I just saw the pix and thought well, kinda like Mista Bolt meybee you have been spending a little too much time with 'Lito!
Pretty obvious what the components are for if you have seen enough of the stuff. What are you using for the target body "E" or "F" types?
 
 
 

Charlie Higgins
Sir, I believe YOU need to peruse (That means READ) The In Review and Hot Tips and Cold Shots pages and possibly LEARN a bit about the suggestions given to you.
Mr. Mike Miller is the maker of probably the best tactical sling for sharpshooters in the world(PERIOD).
Plus he's played a cop both on and off tee-vee, had a cameo on the Wizard of Oz, played the part of a Califonia Blonde during a major Sniper Event, and is generally a pretty sharp guy.
 

GEEEZUS! (SORRY) DOESN'T ANYBODY READ THE FRIGGIN "OTHER" PAGES ON SNIPER COUNTRY????????????????
 
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 12:21:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.202)

Charlie Higgins,

Cut & paste this

http://www.tacticalintervention.com/quickcuffonlinemanual.html

and read a bit, Mike even put the stuff on the web for webcrawlers

click on the blue letters for information
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
big city, by-gawd, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 12:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.202)

I switched to wood 2"x4"s with those "Insta-Saw Horse" kits from Home Depot.
I found that chain or metal was a bad suport for the thing... it gets RAZOR SHARP, when hit with a 175. So have heavy gloves, cuz I got some really bad cuts when I brought the thing in from a shoot at West Point Academy.

Course, I never hit the chains, but the guys I let shoot my plates, tore them up something awful ;)

I think it was Sinister that suggested suspending the plates with old fire hose that the departments give away when they go "past date".

Betty??? Now, lookie... we have "Betty Towed", "Betty Towed 'Light" now "Target Betty"... is there something you need to express, that we need to understand? ;)

Does Major Kim know about the "Betty" thing you have ;)

How 'bout "Down Town Floozie Slut" ;)

Morris...
Go into the "Duty Roster Archives" (see blue thing at top of this page), click it, go back a bit and use the search function (Ctrl-F), and enter Israeli in the little box... you will find it (and lots of other cool stuff).

Charlie...
When did Cabella's become a valid reference source??? Ju gotta' be kiddin' Mang!

Marius...
I don't believe it... You P-O-S-T-E-D !!! Holly Poopie!
Dogs and cats, livin' together (in sin)!

PeteR...
NO, they don't!

'lito
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 13:39:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.69)

I will take that cutting caution under advisement. This is my first steel clanger target like that. As far as transporting, you can't carry it - or @ least I can't. Now, PeteR might be able to - uitilizing NinJa concentration, etc. Anyhow, it weighs about 150Lbs - but the intention was to dolly it up/down range.

The grid I want to paint on it will have inches and 100 yard mil marks (3.6") on it. That way, (ex:) say - at 300 yards - one mil in yer scope shud span 3 of those marks on the target. If yer studying the wind, you can see how much deflection you actually got.

Ya'all gimme a sanity check on this... after all grids are painted on on anyway...
 

thanks,

Ken :)
 

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:04:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

How about a removable wire grid overlay and just spray paint over it?

Like chicken wire or concrete reinforcing wire?

Drop it over, touch up, remove and by the time you're back to the FFP its dry.
 

justa thought....................
 

Ninja Concentration- HA!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:27:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.178)

HA!!!... You're dead meat!

You shoulda asked for a practality check... I think it looks real good (not like my clangin' pile of "firewood" ;)

150 pounds Jeez, Louise!! Think I could have a whack at it with my "50 Towed"?

On Scope Warrentees...
Got an e-mail from a lurker with a scope problem last week... he was the second owner, and got whacked with a whoppin' repair bill.
Between what he paid for it used, and the repair bill, he "Cudda had a Lupita".

Note this... one of the reasons that Lupita is so respected here, is that if there is a Lupita IN YOUR HAND, no mater how many guys have owned it, it is UNDER WARRENTEE... no jive, no questions, no NADA... PERIOD!!!!

The same applies to the old B&L 10x Tac...

Everything else that is used, cross your fingers, you may eat it (no Ketchup).

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:29:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.69)

This is not a sniping subject but a trivia question.
A friend aquired a belt of .30 cal ammo, the bullet tip was green with a silver band behind it. He was told it was used for peircing tanks. He loaded one in a O3A3 and held on tight as he new this must be something special to peirce a tank. The target was 100 yards, when he fired the shot there was a PTT,,,,,,,,tink as it went through the target. No recoil, and the muzzle of of a red rider. Is this training ammo? If so why a whole belt full?
Any info is greatly appreciated.
P.S. Head stamp is LC 42.

Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:30:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.22.166.168)

I yield from ConstructionCompany back to SniperCountry, sorry.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:35:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.116.36)

With regard to the problem of bullet fragments cutting through the hangers you might try any of the following; What ever material is used to hang the plate, configure it so the plate hangs at an angle (bottom further back than top). Fasten rebar to the plate and bend to achieve desired angle when hung. If chain is used, keep nuts, bolts, and washers handy for emergency repairs.

The angle you set on the plate will cause the fragments to be directed toward the ground and any of the fragments that do go up should miss the hangers. The rebar should hold up better than chain but depending on how it is attached (welded for example) may increase the space required for storage and transportation. I am not sure if welding will stand-up to the constant pounding of being shot, but that will probably depend on the quality of the weld. A range I worked at had steel for handgun, shotgun and rifle work. The rebar usually held up better than chain, shotgun falling plats would sometimes break a weld and the nuts, bolts, and washers need no explaination.

I also realize that angling the plate might effect the accurate ranging but could easily be checked through the use of a laser range finder or simply milling the width (real world targets don't always stand tall to allow you to range them).

I almost forgot, if your in farm country you might try and find some disgarded disker disks. Cost should be cheap (maybe even free) so you can build more hangers. Besides with the hole in the middle you can alway claim your shot went right through the middle if you don't hear that lovely ringing sound. You will punch holes in them but they're cheap!

Have to go, something is ringing...
 
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:45:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.2)

There are no "tank bustin' loads" for the 30-06... '06 armor piercing is good for about 3/8" of mild steel, or 1/4" of hard steel. They were used against lightly protected thingies like jeeps, aircraft "gas" tanks etc.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:47:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.69)

Weather in the mountains has warmed up and we are OUT of the walking boot and into normal footwear!!! going easy on the foot but we're mobile..Heading up to the bench today to chrono some more 22-250 loads out of the 700VS and finalize a zero on the Kimber 84..
 

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Hobbling around on a really sore foot but thankful to be finally mobile on day 65 in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 16:36:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.56)

I think most folks on this roster have used a sling or carrying strap on hunting rifles in the manner which you refer to..I've always refered to it as a "hasty sling"{not an origial term,don't know who first used it, or when I first heard it ]. This is a OK field technique for increasing stability but it is not to be confused with a TRUE shooting sling for precision rifle shooting.

Looping up and waiting...
 

outa here to the range!
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Trying not to get it in a sling in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 16:53:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.56)

With handgun training we often train on using our weak hand if the strong hand becomes disabled or cover dictates. Until recently I have never applied this practice to rifle shooting but here is what triggered it.

I was doing some mil-dot practice from unknown distances. After setting up my target I went back to a spot I had never used. What I discovered is that I was unable to see the target if I shouldered my rifle as I normally would (right handed shooter). After evaluating the situation I discovered that if I shouldered the gun like a left hander I could see the intended target. There was a tree blocking my view from the right side of where I was positioned and I couldn't move left far enough to see target with my regular hold.

Because I had never done this with a scoped rifle (but have practiced plenty with handguns and shotguns) it was really awkward! What made this more difficult for me is that I have a slight control problem (I can hear the laughter but it is not what you may be thinking). I am right eye dominant and cannot close my right eye while leaving my left eye open. This has never been a big problem shooting left handed with handguns (simply used right only, yes I can close my left eye, or simply used both eyes) or shotguns (I leaned my head over stock to pick up the bead and target with my right eye) in the past but made shooting a scoped rifle left handed seem impossible (my brain always wanted to use the picture from the right eye which was not behind the scope).

I probably could have fashioned a patch for the right eye, so the left eye would be the only picture the brain would have, but I just covered it with my right hand. After this arrangement was accomplished the bullets went down range and were on target!

Pardon the pun but, this opened my eyes as to what I needed to do if faced with having to shoot a scoped rifle left handed.

Answer is...switch hands, switch sides, switch eyes, and practice before you are forced into the situation!
 
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 17:13:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.2)

Though I am convinced that The UnDude is dead-on on slings for sniper-rifles, he and I disagree about the ideal sling for sporter-weight rifles. But I have a basis for my RESPECTFUL disagreement. You are as lost as that Mark Smith guy.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 17:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

And you're right. The UnDude sling is barely mentioned in the archives.

Have a nice day.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 18:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

PeteR: you mean there's OTHER pages on this site? WOW! Where are they? Do I need super ninja concentration or those wall walker shoes to find them? LOL. You're a hoot my friend! And a Varget Varget Varget to you too ;-)

Pakrat: by '95 I was long gone, MIGHT be folks I knew, but not me. Paranoid implies that it's an UNREASONABLE or IRRATIONAL fear. Neither of those adjectives apply though, due to the uncovered face of the treasons that has been advanced in our nation. I agree, you guys (cops) aren't going to bang away at me in the middle of the night on accident, that's not what I'm worried about. It's the PURPOSEFUL slam and bam. You said it yourself, "If you are not breaking the law", but I have every intention of doing so. Not violating local, state, or US law (at least not violating the constitutional ones that I'm obliged to obey), but international law. I'm a true first class enemy of foreign domination of our republic, and there's NO WAY I will bow. Odds are, especially since clitton and our republican senate passed "legislation" that makes all US citizens liable to the international courts, and gives the UN license to make arrests of US citizens on our soil (for deportion and trial at the Hague, not here in the states, and not under ANY protections of our Constitution), I will at some time be under the gun of someone who has a problem with my "breaking the law". Please understand, I'm not busting the chops of cops. It takes commitment to put up with the crap you do, especially for the wages they pay. I applaud that kind of tenacity and community minded selflessness. But I value PEACE OFFICERS over law enforcement in every way. The last check-and-balance is the fact that PEACE OFFICERS will not arrest people for violation of international law. When we have people who are more concerned with enforcement of laws than keeping the peace, be they international or local, we need no UN troops on the corners, we'll have local police for that, and they'll do exactly the same thing. All the best amigo, I hope we're fighting on the same side one day.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 19:08:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.231)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 19:34:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.20)

The Quick Cuff is an option, and not the only method of carry/use with one of Mikes slings. Makes me WONDER how well you READ the materials.

I was using one of the orginals to teach "The Matrix" flying kicks, and Dodging bullets to 'Lito, WELL until Mike warned me that it has a 4000 tensile limit.
 

Shaking his head,yet again this week, peteR walks slowly into the sunset.

TOO TIRED FOR RANT MODE
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 20:15:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.164)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 20:43:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.21)

I could teach you what the difference is between a carry strap and a sling but I do not think you could hang for a week of field work. I suggest you go down to the local NRA High Power range and start shooting with your super sling and see the results.

CDC, many deer wish I did not use my sling. We hunt differently and both work well.

Pete, I need to send you a new sling. That one you have is older than the hills
MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 20:49:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.151)

He don't like commies, or monkeys........(:

Alan Arkin......"Catch 22".

Two shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 21:00:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.52)

Need a little info. I have been given a set of two pc. Mk IV bases for my Rem. Rings are coming. Is there a taper to the bases? I am currently using Leupold bases and rings and have run out of elevation on my M3(1000 yds shots hit 25 yds in front of target) and wondered if there is a cant built in these bases or do I need to order one?

thanks all,

John 1*
John <jrr051468@aol.com>
Deep,Deep, South, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 21:07:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.68)

Wasn't that what Kissinger once said to Nixon?
 
 

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 21:17:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.218)

Two Shoes...
Commies... monkies... isn't that redundant??

ALAN...
I think so ;))

Man, am I glad I didn't get into this sling thingie... more worser than the .45 Colt vs 9mm, or the M14/21/25 thing ;))

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 21:25:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.21)

Done playing 20 questions. Thanks for the info guys.

Mike T
 

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 21:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Would anyone happen to know whether or not the "Lubalox" coating on Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertips gives the same problems that Moly does on a cold bore shot?

Thanks
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 22:02:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.45)

You're right, My 1 generation sling is older than the Hills, Bloodstained (NOT MINE OF COURSE hee-hee), has survived two stalks at Storm + my daily grind of dry fire n' occasional live fire practice.
 

BUT it still works perfect! :-)
 

Not suprising ehhhhhhhhh?
 
 

Where the Hell is Wild Bill?????????
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 22:44:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.197)

Master Rick: why not go ahead and poke me in the eye about the 9's, all the patrons (and plenty more) have......

Been reading some great first hand stuff about how the XM-16A1's SUCKED so much in the late 60's. Thanks to you for that Squirrelboy! Now I'll get bashed for claiming that the '14 system is more reliable naturally than the '16 system..... Now, where'd that mini-14 go? Gotta stir it!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, the UN occupied zone called the USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 22:54:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.167)

Lately we have been visited by a couple of rather smug gentlemen who have taken a heavily sarcastic and condescending "I-read-in-a-gun-magazine" tone that irritates me.

As of now, if they don't take direct shots at me, I'll leave them alone. Or, if someone asks questions like, "What do you recommend, the Schmitt & Bender or the Bushnell Banner?", I'll just scroll down with a smile.

Pete: I was wondering the same thing. Its not like Bill to be this quiet. I hope its not the ticker again. The place isn't the same without the cranky old cuss.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 23:47:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

If any of you guys are interested in the opinions and experiences that a USMC grunt had with the early M16s it can be found here, http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html
To hop there without all the cut&paste garbage just click on my name, it will take you to the same place.

Title of the article is "The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam" by Dick Culver. I'm not sure how wide spread this article is so I'm not sure if anyone has read it before.

All three pages are worth taking the time to read if you ask me. Unlike the "Mall Ninja" thing which was funny as can be, this one isn't so funny(it has a good moment or two) but rather quite serious. I'm sure a few people will be able to relate to it.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 00:02:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.27.232.201)

Had a nice last weekend (of winter training) here in Yuma, Arizona. Gun show yesterday at the fairgrounds, then off to the range to hammer rounds from 200 thru 700 yards. Today we went all the way back to 1,000 with blue skies and temps in the 60's (ya hearin' this Pablito?). The ground is still a little mooshy from the rains last week.

Sergeant Major Joe A. from the Special Forces Military Free Fall School has a nail-driving combination that cost him around $1300 with all new components:

Savage 110FP from Wally-Mart
Leupold M3LR ("G" series) with ARMS rings
McMillan LOD stock
Harris Mod L bipod.

The M3LR tracked beautifully through 900 with 168 Match Kings with the 308M turret collar, but the 7-10 mph fish-tailing breezes blew us all over the course once we hit 800. Great afternoon, though.

The tan sides of IPSC targets disappear against the desert. Had to flip 'em around to get good contrast for his reticle cross-hairs. I'll bring the M1-16X out next year, since you can see forever in this clear desert air.

White "correction" tape on a roll from Staples pastes up holes on the white sides of IPSCs well, and matte box tape on a roll pastes up the tan sides. Orange surveyor's tape from Lowe's is about $2 a roll.

Definitely going to bring iron maidens next year, though, as you can't make out .30 cal holes even against the white sides past 400 in mirage (Kowa 821 spotting scope with 27X eyepiece). Shoot-N-See targets worked pretty well though, with the contrasting black with day-glo green bullet holes.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 00:37:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Moly Musings...Went to the range today to finish breaking the 6.5 X .284 in with moly. Fired 1 cleaned, fired 2 cleaned up to 5 rounds.
Rifle was shooting just OK(about 1/2 MOA). Once finished I fired a number of 5 round groups with the same result. Always getting a flyer on the 4th or fifth round.
Also had a 1/2 MOA (low right) group shift I don't see with my non-moly handloads.

This mirrors my results previously. Now I'll test at 600...
People on the rangeat 100 and 200 today, so no 600 yard work possible today.

The Chandler Gun shoots one ragged hole, point of aim/point of impact with non-moly 142 Sierra's a just cements my opinion about moly being not suited for tactical purposes.

My .308 shot well with my tactical load of a 175 gr Sierra and 44.0 gr. Varget. I won't claim to be a bag shooter, but still managed 1/2 MOA groups and less.

Interestingly enough, I confirmed that the 6.5 x .284 recoils less than my .308 load. Several friend shot it and remarked that it was a sweetheart in that department. Frankly, I'k about ready to dump the .308's and just use the 6.5...

More later in the week when I can get to and use the 600 yards line and test moly at a distance...

All for now...

S/F,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 00:41:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.212)

That thing is going to make a hell of a rakkkit when hit, "BIG BEN" mean anything? I would suggest contact cementing some sort of rubber mat to the back, like a door mat, to soak up some of that ring. I dont think the extra wieght will be a factor.
The old ladys in the next town will think its time to go to church every time your at the range.
quazi ken mo the bell ringer....He He you know now that I think about it I need one. May be a project for next weekend. The wife will love it as a 1000yrd dinner bell. Good work by the way!
JIM <azgeneral1@aol.com>
glendale, AZ, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 01:02:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.199)

Now the wonder nine meant “I wonder why anyone would buy this piece of junk”! :-) Pot stirred!

Rich S. - The wind formulas on the 23-10 are wrong. They are a cut and paste from an earlier manual with the caveat left off. The constant for the 7.62mm in the book is for M80 ball and will give you a bad wind call. The Marine Manual has the same problem. Use the constant of 10 and you will have the correct wind call in full moa for the M118 series of ammo in meters, and the 168 grain will hit as well, though better in yards.

Well will now go hide for a spell.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 01:15:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.43)

Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 02:19:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.218.46)

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 02:20:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Basically, the US Armed Forces are now authorized by law to perform police duties and investigations in the USA when it involves alleged terrorists and/or "potential" terrorists. This did, in effect, largely nullify the Posse Commitatus Law from the 1860's.

We haven't seen the real-world results yet, but my National Guard friends were recently trained in civilian control procedures (police duties), so it's in the works and on the way.

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 03:07:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.13)

I need to know about how to properly mount a scope mount. I have searched the hot tips and cold shots and some of the arcives and have come up dry. Someone said something about lapping. And I know there is a certain way to torque the screws and a certain torque to turn them to. Would someone please be so kind to give me the best most accurate prosess? Im working with my new Stealth and a badger mount and rings. I hope to achive those pretty cloverleaf/cluster groups even WHILE im breaking it in. TY
 

Mr. Couburn, tell me what to call you? your Highness? J/K
Big Will The woodsman <madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 03:15:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.117)

"Retreat Hell, we're just attacking in the other direction".
 

For your homework children, who said it and when?
 

Loving Sundays on the History Channel, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 03:25:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.236)

There ain't now G*D Damn army that can keep a Marine Regiment from going where it wants to go.
 

This is an extra credit question!
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 03:30:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.236)

Same thing about 'yote bait. I'd go on a drinking binge if I heard anything happened to him. Heck, he's the only one that AGREES with me!

Newbies of all flavor: if you think that you're being treated harshly, take a look at the Hot Tips & Cold Shots section. You'll notice that the "out takes" that include me, virtually all make me look like a blithering idiot, with everyone rising up in unison to tell me I don't know squat. One has to question, am I that stupid, or is there some kind of conspiracy of "creative editing"? HA! Now to go load more 30 carbine and 9mm.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now called the UN occupied zone of the USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 04:05:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.152)

And some friendly and sincere advice. If there is one guy on this board with whom I wouldn't want to be in a pissing contest, its Pablito. Do a browser search for "Master Kung-Foo Fighter" in December of '99, and see if you want any of that.

Charley: Do a web search for "Ching Sling". Gunsite sells them. Most of the guys here use Mike's slings, but, for sporter weight rifles, I prefer the Ching. That's just me. Other guys here disagree vehemently. Par for going from a standing ready to a SOLID sitting slung with a Ching is about 1.5 seconds. It takes a quick lesson and some practice.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 04:26:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

kh
kh <confederate123@yahoo.com>
possumtown, mississippi, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 06:00:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.155.48.28)

I bought a Super Sling today Charlie. It had the Uncle Mikes 1 1/4
swivles on it swivels by themselves were $8. Sling was $12. I needed a good nylon strap for lashing my outergarments to my treestand for transporting. Two birds with one stone sling comes apart real easy and 2 swivel studs to boot. Those things are good for something; thanks.

Now to ring the Undude for a sling to mount in those SUPER SWIVELS.

Bravo Back With A Vengeance.
YEEEHAAAAH

Night boys
JC

JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Lashing Goretex and Thinsulate with my pretty new nylon strap, KY, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 06:22:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.164)

Now, sniper related: I've read one article by a staff member of SOF, who had high praise of the moly coated rounds. I've read here that they are not so worthy of high praise.
Use or not to use, that is the question?

Pak
pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 06:30:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

You're so stumped that I posted that you forgot to answer the question! Or is it that you're TOTALLY stumped?

Byron, thanks for that answer. It has been a long time, but I used to shoot equally well left- or right handed with my airgun. But I haven't really tried that with bolt-action rifles. I am left (writing), right (shooting/throwing), and ambidextrous most other things. Used to play darts against myself at 'varsity - one hand against the other. Used to have great fun at school cricket - would bat first couple of balls right-handed, and then switch... Not that I was this great batsman, but it comfused the hell out of the opposition!

But your answer, though perfectly valid, is not what I was looking for, as some people am just totally clueless with the "other" hand.

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 06:34:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

I am sorry to belabor this point as I am sure this gets covered exhaustively here. Also, please forgive my obtuseness but my anal-retentive nature compels me to ask to make sure I am doing this right.

I *have* looked at the "hot tips, cold shots" for this info, and used it as a starting point, but needed a little more clarification.

I began with factory-fresh barrel (rem700pss) by using hoppes#9, then Sweets 7.62, then BR paste. The sweets came out totally clean. I then fired one shot, then cleaned with hoppes #9 until patches were clean. I repeated this 10 times, then cleaned with hoppes #9, sweets 762 (which did come out a bit darker this time), and then BR paste.

Then I repeated the above, but with two shots in between cleanings. I am only using the Sweets and BR paste after every 10 cleanings. My question (took me long enough) is should I be using the sweets or BR paste more often during break-in? I am being so paranoid about cleaning up after using the sweets and BR paste that it is time-prohibitive. I spent 5 hours all-told doing the above and only got through 30 rounds. I have been told that the sweets can be nasty to bore and chamber, so I have been paranoid about dousing the entire area with plenty of mild solvent to dilute any residue that might possibly be left. Am I on the right track here? My next step will be 10 more cleanings with 3 rounds in between, then 10 more cleanings with 5 rounds in between, and then I will consider myself done with shooting forever and can sell all of my guns.

Thanks!
Lugnut <m655321@mindspring.com>
GA, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 09:07:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.69.192.155)

Bolt - Who would wan tto stop the Marines? We send them in firsst to heat the enemies barrels befroe the army comes in and kicks a**! :-)

Flash - Hate to tell you this but the National Guard haa been training in Civil crowd control for years. Who do you think brought you Kent State? Again the military has been able to go into a terrorist situation anytime that MARTIAL LAW has been declared or theere is any state of ememergency and martial law has been declared. This is nothing new and I will guarrantee that the politican that declares martial law will not be elected again. That is why they don't do it and why the military only goes into areas invited to give humanataran assistance as in Florida. You are getting into the "Black Helicopter" zone.

Out here before the black helios take me away ha ha. :-)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 11:10:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.178)

I'm thinking it's time to have a new 308 short barreled bolt gun built. Any opinions on the LOD or HS Thumbhole stocks or any others out there. I have guns with McHales, A2s, A3s and A4s so I am considering something different. Also any thoughts on a non-taperred short 18-20" barrels. I'm leaning toward 19" fluted Schnieder or Hart. I'm trying to go the other extreme light weight and compact and good to around 800. Any recommendations on a twist rate for a short barrel. Rifle will probably be built on a Win 70 short action since I already have one.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 11:48:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

I'm sorry did I leave cherry juice on keyboard again? Crap!!!!
******Ducking my head, as I leave, so as to not allow my stem to hit the door frame********* :)

Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Cherry Juice, TX, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 11:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Yup... still in total shock!

If you mean... answer the question about the thorn/finger thing, you're going about it all wrong.

The sniper is a vertuoso ;), a valuable individual to the system ;)).
That trigger finger must be protected at all costs ;))).

Consider... if you were a important concert pianist, do you think they would let you put shingles on your roof??
Noooooo... not a chance.
You would have to sit back and drink Margaritas, while some little underling did it.

If you were a concert violinist, do you think you would be out, under the pick-up truck, swappin' out the transmission??
Noooooo...
While some monkey was humpin' that gearbox, you'd be sitting on the beach, drinking Pina-colatas, while some sweet (under 20) nubile, semi clad hunny, was strokin' and kissin' that valuable finger (no the other one, you prevert!) ;)))

So you see, you have to convince the higher ups, that the finger in question (the first finger), is a VERY VALUABLE ASSET...

Now (and this is important), should that valuable finger get a boo-boo, then you would have to shoot with the NEXT finger (the middle finger), and as we all know, that could be a disaster.
Suppose Carlos Hathcock had to use his second finger to take that 800 meter shot against the NV General, and MISSED???... Why that General could've gone on to be the strategest that turned the war, invaded
America, and forced all of us to learn to speak Vietnamise, and give up "POP TARTS" for breakfast... I mean REALLY!!! That would be a very bad thing!

That first finger of Carlos, saved America from an awfull future.
Imagin having to rewrite all this country's traffic laws in "Vietnamise"?

So... you have to convince the higher ups, that that first finger is SOoooo valuable, that it has to be protected from boo-boos at all costs.

When they ask you to get out and do "finger dangerious stuff", that might risk that digit...
... to remind them of the consequences of hurting that little puppy, hold the second digit up in the air, so that they will be reminded of how really valuable you are ;))))))))))

Sinister... Rick-ster... youz other bumz got this down? :)) Now go out there, and assert your importance and show 'em that second finger, so they'll protect the first one (and demand that nubile, semi-clad Hunny"!

Steve...
To your question...
>>"What is the most effective round for long range/short range precision shooting? Is it safe to say the bigger the better? What would be the best load for a sniper rifle?"<<

Definitly the biggest one you can get... in most instances, even the 378-WM would be for whimps, and pussie-faggots. The more the better.

You might also click the blue lettering at the top of this page that says "Duty Roster Rules of Engagement"... and read them through a few times.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lord... where are all these silly children coming from???, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 11:57:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.67)

Just saw your note on Dick Culver's write-up of the M16. Dick's a nice guy, interesting and talkative, though he still owes me.

I can't read that article here at work, but if he wrote it, it will be good and true, and well worth reading. If you look through the Articles section you'll find a writeup of his on the 1903 Springfield. He posted this on the Roster way-back-when.

Back on the old site (Dave Reed's) Dick was a very respected regular, but he went when that site died and have never posted here, despite knowing of its existance. Guess his own site, and all the work Gloria does, as well as his work with DCMP (if he's still there) keeps him busy enough.

I'll be adding a link to this article to the Articles section soon - hopefully next update I do.

Marius

Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 14:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Rick; my gosh, I thought you had been to every show in the world, never seen a black helo. Man......Since that rumor started they are all over this country out here. I think every service must have stripped their emblems off. Maybe they're all carryin dope!

Hey somebody tell me... who wears light blue turtleneck sweaters under dark blue jackets (i think it dark blue). And flies black Hueys (sometimes white helmet) and with no insignia on the side in my front yard? (not intended as a joke).

So the Posse act is dead... so much for diplomacy.

Bravo; true about the territory ha. Hey, been breakin in 2 new gas guns. GI M1a's, they both shoot about a minute with iorn S.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 14:49:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I have been in martial arts since I was 14 and I am now 54 and I sure as hell don't have the flexability or the stamina that I once had and thats why several years ago I started looking for someting different and this would fill the bill.

Ken..
You may want to make the legs wider depending on your wind calls(HA). Another good hanger is conveyor belting. I have taken two steel posts and welded hooks on them and them have the plate welded to the rebar and hang it between the hooks, quick and cheap and simple.

Mike T..
I coyote hunt in the winter and lay a lot in the snow. I also do a lot of walking so I get heated up. Its important to have a good set or polypro underwear so it will wick the moisture away from you. I layer with either wool or polar fleece. These are both excellent insulators. I use insulated coverals for my outer layer but as Wes says a gortex liner is great. If its going to be wet I use a gortex pair of pants. I also use a ground pad cut to the shape of my rear end and stick it inside my coverals to keep my rear warm when I sit in the snow or if your going to lay down, take a pad with you, makes a lot of difference if your going to be there more than and hour.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 15:24:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Rob K- Drilling the stock.... Try using a ZIRCONIUM NITRIDE coated bit from sears. It worked on mine.

It's been a while but I took "ODIN" the 300WM out the other day. It still shoots better then me and left me smiling for more.

Joe <spojoehpd@aol.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 16:25:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.179)

thanks
Geoff <ggleaton@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 17:08:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.150.168.77)

House Republicans aim to make it clear to the White House in the coming months that they do not endorse the International Criminal Court Treaty, which Bill Clinton agreed to in the final weeks of his presidency, but which critics allege would threaten U.S. sovereignty and endanger the rights of due process for American citizens. Under the ICC treaty, Americans could be prosecuted and tried before an international tribunal that would then have the authority to hand out punishment....

(Click on my name to read the full article)

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 18:23:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Does any of you have an opinion or preference on the two types of bi-pods?

It seems that you would have less chance of muzzel movement with the non-swiveling and it is cheaper. What are the pros & cons of the two types?
Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.om>
CA, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 18:35:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.202.54.31)

MikeL: welcome to black helo country. That story broke about 2 months or so ago on the Patriots USA site. The measure you're speaking of was just the "next step" to what was already done in the desertification UN treaty, which already puts US citizens on the UN axe, just "clarified the issue".

Great friend 'Yote Bait: good to see you back again, you were about to worry me! Yeah, just over 1 MOA is about par for a new rack grade '14. Which is why, when given the quote to rework my NM, and the guarentee of 1 MOA, I laughed at Springfield. It wasn't shooting quite that bad as a "shot out"! The difference was though, and I don't understand this, it would shoot 3/4 MOA, but throw flyers all over. Not lots of them, just enough to swear at. 2 or 3 out of 20 or so. Quite disconcerting to get a good group, with some 3 MOA max flyers ;-)

Master Rick: don't forget FEMA. They "legalized" an anything-goes measure. Martial law is only one scenario for military-police states. Even that isn't my real worry, as FEMA had good roots (that were then twisted and perverted). It's those annoying "exercises" that get me. Now please, before I loose interest in this CAR, tell me that heading to a CQB class with a rack grade '14 in a GI synthetic stock would put me at a disadvantage ;-)

Pakrat: you do my heart good to know you're on our side. You see my concern though, if someone says "but I was just upholding the law", that does me no good when I'm dead any my son doesn't have a father. Soneone upholding an illegal law is still an enemy of my nation.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 18:58:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

And most everyone on this site will agree...

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 19:02:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.86)

Nomex Hoods... Nomex is a great material that does not conduct heat well and wears about three times better than polyester. The value of a nomex hood in a flash fire is that it does not melt onto you and it does trap air which insulates covered areas for a brief moment. I'm not so sure that I would opt to wear a hood while making entry as a tac team member (I'm not a police officer), since my mouth, nose and eyes are not covered...what the heck am I protecting? The other thing to consider is potential loss of peripheral vision, the loss of fine hearing and the possibility that I will snag or otherwise turn the mask backwards, stopping me from being effective... we wear them in house fires and they DO cut down on use of your senses..

Drug labs....the stuff is bad, but not nearly as bad as what Bravo works with daily... just assume everything is poison and highly flammable (you know, like roach baits and gasoline, stuff you find in every garage) .. A flash bang would probably result in a weenie roast, but hey, that's a risk "the manufacturer" already agreed to take when he/she conspired to break the law and kill stupid kids for a living.

OK, here's one for you. There was this prosecutor in the county I live in (Last name Bissel) who was caught falsifying evidence and extorting money from a bunch of low lives... he got caught and fled to Las Vegas a few years back, where he ate a bullet rather than going to jail. The subsequent investigation discovered that two police officers in my town had falsified reports and testified to same under oath, under the advise of this prosecutor. The testimony resulted in a long jail stay and loss of property for the guy arrested (who was probably a dealer)

The new prosecutor elected to not pursue criminal charges against the officers, and they were allowed to keep their jobs with undefined punishment.

A few years later and one is a candidate for promotion to police chief...what the heck, wouldn't you think his career should be dead ended? This is real and very scary stuff...
 

Fred <familiar_face@hotmail.com>
corruption, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 19:10:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

The court in Hague does not give out death penalties or life sentences, in that view it is more lenient than the US Military Court. Of course Hague WILL punish those war criminals that are brought to the court so sometimes US Military Court might be in real life more lenient. May Lai comes to my mind.

USA has been involved in all kinds of international operations from Kuwait to Somalia to Bosnia. If USA wants act in unison with other countries, then the rules should be the same for everybody.

So if USA thinks it can snatch people from abroad and bring them to the USA for justice, then this should be allowed to others too. USA seems to have something against it. To me it seems like double standards: We can do it but you can not.

If the USA does not want to operate under the rules of UN then USA does not have to follow UN rules. In this case USA should not expect too much support from other countries.

Before I will get threats of being a commie-loving bastard I would like to point out that if you want to be approved by other countries you need to comply with common rules. If you do not care, you can be the "Ugly American" and do whatever you want to. Just like the Russians have allways done.

I know that ultimately USA will do whatever it wants to because they have the power to do so.

Hexa

BTW According to the FBI those "black helicopters" are actually green :-)
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 19:50:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 20:01:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Now, the only really good reason why I would carry that 10 kg tripod with the huge L mount around would be in a FIBUA scenario were I would have to shoot down out of a room in a high building at a steep angle.
I could see were that would make sense as you could stand back far enough within the room and still be high enough of the ground to clear the windowsill without sticking the barrel out like in a bad Hollywood film.

anyone out there ( Slugboy ? ) that can enlighten me on the use of that thing ?

t
 

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 20:52:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.81)

Patron Dave wrote:
"Think about it, folks, You have a massive wave of brush fires in your state, and the Army provides soldiers to put out fires and C-130s to drop fire retardant. Those are military operations. Would you rather we didn't do them?
"I was talking about folks who think you have active soldiers surrounding Ruby Ridge, or driving the helicopters and CEVs at Waco, or arresting folks in the inner city in drug raids. I'll throw the bullshit flag and call for 25 yards." - Sinister 
 

My personal experience:

Summer of '93. I was part of a JTF-DIT... Joint Task Force - Drug Interdiction Team. I was, at the time, a USMCR 0311 E3 in 3 Bn / 24th Marines... 2 companies, L and I, and some support from H&S came along, too... Navy supplied Corpmen, and the Army sent some fellas from the 10th, from a Mountain Unit... specialists in sensors... and even the Air National Guard helped, as they were the ones who flew us across country in C-141s.

Mission. Conduct LP/OP on Federal lands in the area around Malibu. We rotated on 48-hr teams, night insert/extraction.
Priority #1: Don't be seen.

We did NOT engage, only acted as observers. EVERYTHING was radioed into the Park Rangers, who would then act on it. We had NO powers of arrest, etc... All we were were extra eyes for the Park Service.

Our observation lanes were directed down onto the canyon roads. Targets for observation:
#1: Evidentally most of the pot patches were watered by a funnel-drainage system off of the road. We were to watch for any vehicles to stop along-side the road, and then dump buckets of water into the funnel system to let it run down-hill to the gardens.
#2: Drop-off PCP labs. Since these things are supposedly so explosive, the cooks from LA would be dropped off along the roadside up inthe hills with a camp-stove set-up. They'd cook it up, and then the car would swing back by later and pick them up.

During our 3-week rotation, we never observed anything. Another company rotated in and took our place as we left. Our guess was, the higher-ups were using us jarheads from the east-coast to police on the west-coast so we wouldn't be watching our cousins... which made us ask, are west-coast Marines being used around our east-coast neck of the woods, to do the same thing??

The next year, the missions evolved a bit. Instead of simple LP/OP, the teams would actually fast-rope into pot-patches and then slash & burn. Again, no arrest powers, only providing backs for the work for the park service.

In retrospect, I now think that this was getting close to "the line", but I don't think we actually crossed "the line". Everything was handled by the NPS, we were extra hands, cheap labor for them. I wouldn't want to see the military being used more than that....
 

Gotta get back to work....

-L
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 21:12:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

I would appreciate any info.

thanks, bryan
bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 21:55:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.184)

Welcome to the world of a "formally" anal retentive breaker-inner and cleaner-upper! I too was like you until I let Patrons 'Lito, Gooch, Bowcher and others talk me into reality. It will pass my son.

First, THROW THE PASTE IN THE TRASH CAN!

Second, I will email to you my new break-in and cleaning procedures.
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 22:24:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.123.230)

Lord bless you chile.........

PLEASE go to the site I gave you last evening......(:

TWO SHOES
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 22:26:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.34)

Congrats, Jeff A. !!! Nice Shooting and a well deserved 1st place in your category. Now you get to play with the "big boys".

OUT HERE !
Will
Will Adams <rogue308@mindspring.com>
soggy, Alabama, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 22:37:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.143.115)

Now I'm outta here !
Later
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 22:39:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.143.115)

My comments on the UN were meant to be comments for international operations in various hot spots around the world. I never did think that some of you were afraid of UN regulations being used by US troops in the USA against the US people. If this scenario is a possible one in the USA then you are in deep dodo. Then again you should blame your leaders not the UN.

In a big country a professional army can be misused so in that sense USA has a possible problem. In smaller countries like in Finland or Sweden the professional army is so small that if they would try anything against their own people they would be destroyed within a week by their own citizens. Generals can not fight if they do not have soldiers. In conscript armies the regular staff is only the skeleton of the actual army and alone they can not really do much. With professional armies you always have the risk of a coup or other misuse of their powers.

Pretty scare thoughts some of you have.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 22:42:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

On the first quote, it Gen. Oliver Smith at Chosin, referring to the fact that even in "retreat" his FirstMarDiv was bringing all supplies, wounded and dead out with them, while they retook ground in order to advance back to the sea. There's a quote by Chesty Puller that I belive came out of that same battle. "We're surrounded, that simplifies our problem." (though maybe that was from Guadalcanal)

Don't know the second one offhand.

Here's another one:

"Come on, you sons of bitches, do you want to live forever?"

Don't have the EXACT when , but I know who and generally when.

Semper Fi,
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Monday, March 12, 2001 at 22:47:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.245.205)

You may now go out and play LOL! The rest of you have to stay after class. The second one was from Chesty Puller also. 700,000 screaming, bugle blowing, drum pounding Chinese dudes with nothing but small arms! Man, any of you vets that had to face that action still must have your anal pores puckered. The other Puller quote that you mentioned is my favorite of all time. He must have been one hell of a task master.

Will,

It ain't the rifle, it's the shooter. A rifle doesn't know if it is resting on the bench or on a sand bag. If the rifle will shoot one MOA off a bench, it will shoot it no matter how it is supported.

As for group size and MOA shooting, they go hand in hand. The tighter the average MOA, theoretically, the tighter the group average. Most of the time a quality gun will do better MOA than a cheap gun. If not, the bench resters would be shooting Savages.

Now, that being said, no more time than I get behind the trigger here lately I am damn overjoyed if "I" can shoot 1 MOA and put all the shots in a pie plate at 300. I know that my rifles can shoot a lot better than that, but practice is the key.

Everything in shooting is realitive; quality gun + quality ammo + lots of range time + quality shooter = good groups.

Just my 2.4686 cents worth, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 00:09:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.123.230)

-Chris
Chris Peltzer <cpeltzer@optonline.net>
NY, NY, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 00:44:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.184.105.135)

Definitly the biggest one you can get... in most instances, even the 378-WM would be for whimps, and pussie-faggots. The more the better."
 

STOP IT, 'LITO!!

I'm gettin' tired of having to wipe off my screen and keyboard every time you post something! ROTFLMAO!

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
I'm running outa Windex and paper towels, FL, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 02:05:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.23)

Sorry I didn't through the Chesty answer for you...
One of the stories I heard was that while in Korea he decided to build an E-club for his men, brought in enough alcohol to get 'em all "happy". Next morning Chesty called for an early reveille, and then dragged them on a 20 mile march.... Great, huh?
 
 

André....

Wasn't that MacArthur?
 
 

L8R,

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 02:25:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.133)

WTF OVER?????

Jeff,
PLEASE Fill us in Dude, R U still shooting the Lapua slugs over V-V powder?
 
 

'Lito
I have to concur with Moe, I'm getting to the point where blowing a mouthful of expresso out a nostril whilst reading the Roster is common place. Gotta plastic thingee to cover the keyboard (Key Condom?)
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 02:35:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.48)

Just installed my new JP trigger and low mass hammer to my Colt. Nice! Adjustments are easy and I got a trigger that rivals my custom M1A.

Semper Fi!
 

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 02:46:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.76.47.163)

Hexa: yes, they're pretty scary thoughts we have, but as a nation, we're kind of odd also. Think about this, if you will. The toll that the NVA took on our military, while terrible, was small if you look at it in a percentage of the overall population. The same can be said of the horrific losses we suffered at the hands of the Nazis (and no, I do not equate Germans and nazis) and the Japanese. These numbers pale in comparison to the death and destruction delivered by half of the nation against the other half of the nation in the War of Northern Agression. Concentration camps that made the nazi camps look like vacationlands were rife here in our country, there were even some in the Confederate states. In short, we've never fought a war with anyone else that was NEARLY as terrible, more costly in lives or property, than with ourselves. Not to mention the depravity that reared its ugly head and has never gone away since. Unfortunately, the side of opression and massive central government control, in the hands of the first republican president, won. We, the people who study American and world history, know what's around the corner and coming up quick, as history does unfortunately tend to repeat itself. We, as a nation, have always been slow learners, who didn't care for history. The reason we loathe the UN isn't because of what the UN is, it's because the same side that won before, will use it as a weapon to bludgeon the population unricheously. But any club used on your head is naturally loathed.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 02:50:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.184)

george <george@xtn.net>
Greeneville, TN, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 03:08:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.31.140.197)

al o
AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Same Place Same Station, Just a Little Southeast of Nome, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 03:36:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.112)

Bad Karma - Is the JP a single or two stage trigger? What weight is it breaking at? You mentioned adjustments being easy to do, which would indicate some type of adjustment mechanism (DUH). Is the host gun used primarily for BR shooting? Methinks a field gun would not want to have any adjustable "thingies" to work loose during an endorphine dump.
 
 

Hexa - Yeah, we are a wierd lot of people, us Americans. Just look at Bravo! :-) One of the things that makes us so wierd is this thing called the Bill of Rights that some guys attached to our Constitution. Too many of us have died and bled for it to watch those sanctimonious bastards in Washington (District of) and The Hague try to replace it with their one-world bullshit and tree-hugging feel-good rhetoric. And the bleeding isn't over yet. The unfortunate part is that the do-gooders don't really believe that there are still some of us still willing to stand up for it and drop the hammer if that's what it takes.

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 03:42:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.42)

Years ago as an infantry battalion from the 82nd was preparing to rotate from peace-keeping station in the Sinai, they started teaching the Egyptian kids that their replacements would be arriving soon (the patch the new guys would be wearing would be the famed "Screaming Eagle"). The paratroopers then taught the kids that giving the one-fingered salute with the greeting, "F@#%ing LEG!" would surely help the new guys feel welcome.

Had another friend who brought his three-year old to the Drop Zone. while dad was in the Huey climbing to altitude, all his friends taught the youngster that when his dear old pop landed on the ground, he should give the finger and say "Dad, you're number 1!"

Les, the JTF missions are handled by several services and battalions on rotation (not so much as spying on west coast cousins, if the west coast Marines are on float, training, or otherwise deployed). SF battalions often deploy in support of the counter-narcotics Joint Task Forces. Like your battalion, mine was deployed to lands (actually an air force bombing range) bordering an Arizona Indian reservation to maintain eyeballs on canyons and low-level routes where druggers were flying nap-of-the-earth to avoid surveillance by US Customs' fleet of aerostat ballons. We spotted a bunch, too.

An 18 to 20 inch barreled 308 that shoots supersonic to 1,000? Hmmmmm.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 03:51:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Consider it from the other side... you bop in here, and ask a fairly silly question... one that indicates you don't even have the basic knowledge of what this is about. So for you, it's a gold mine... you can ask "level 1" questions... questions that would be laughed at in a hunting camp.
But from the side of the regulars on this site... how many times can the people here be expected to answer questions about "which is better, a 308, or a 300WM"... I mean, DUDE!!!... it gets real old, year after year.

If you have even bothered to lurk for even a few days, you would have heard the expression "READ THE ARCHIVES", about 50 times... it's ALL IN THERE!

ALL the answers to these little questions about "How to clean your rifle", "How to sight it in", "Which is better, a Winchester or a Remington, "How do I mount my scope"... it's all in there.... in spades.

The regulars are here, not to provide a beginners Q&A service, we are here to amuse ourselves, to learn (on our level), to teach (on our level), and to compete with eachother at matches around the country.
THAT's what this site is for... if you can learn from that, more power to you, but don't get your hair in a knot because no one wants to come to a stop, and answer a very basic (and obvious) question.
When you typed that, you should have been embarrased, it was that silly... so don't get bent, because we laughed.

Most of the people here, even the most experenced shooters, took the time to listen and read, before they opened their mouth... and they got the "lay of the land" before posting ANYTHING... but you have to remember that there are over 2000 lurkers on this site every day, and many of them just ask their questions (politely) by e-mail.

It's like Moe said last week... you bop in here, you're in somebody else's house, you have no rights to answers to basic questions... this is not a basic site, it's an advanced site, so act accordingly... or go to rec.guns

'lito
 
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 04:29:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.94)

Pablito: sorry if I caused any hard feelings, I didn't mean to. I just mess too much I guess.

Not always Respectful but trying to be

Big Will
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 04:30:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.24)

Later they learned that a more accurate translation was, "Be on the recieving end of an unnatural and intrusive act, clitorrio." The last word pretty much translates itself.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 04:41:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Ancient scope sights..... Can anybody out there point me in the direction of a 'first class' outfit that can clean, adjust, overhaul, and refinish a Weaver 330 (off my 1903A4) and a Lyman Alaskan (from a Pre-war M70 Supergrade). Both scopes are presently working fine but I think that it's time for a geriatric tune-up!

Wes..... you seem so enamored by this 6.5 'magic' caliber that I'd swear that you were a member of the Warren Commission if I wasn't aware that you're just a young whippersnapper of 50;-))

Hexa..... if the UN doesn't worry you, you must not be aware of the resolution it passed (in Vienna?) calling for the disarmament of the entire population of every member country. We arrogant Americans will NEVER accept laws attempting to govern us, on our soveriegn soil, implemented and enforced by those who have not even sworn an oath of allegiance to our Constitution. THE EUROPEAN UNION WILL CRUMBLE - like the Tower of Babel that it so much resembles!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 05:44:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.77.148)

'lito: Thousand Appoligies on the Weather (once again a balmy 15C here, after the short break back to Winter last Wednesday) Sorry, but it is much better to give than to recieve (especially Small arms fire)

On/For New/Inexperienced Shooters -
I found this site about two years ago and read some of the posts. I had figured with 10.5 years in the CF I had a grip on small arms stuff - NOT (at least by a SC standard- and I had a personal 700 for 10 years too). I used to get a wpn by signing for it take it shoot it, clean it, real annaly [not by choice], then turn it back in. If I broke it, well it got fixed or I got a new one. Being a BIG gun nut I knew a fair amount more than the avg troop. But I was still caught in the box. The idea of lapping rings, torquing stuff (myself rather than hey you fix this)was rather elusive. I still can't bring myself to reload rifle [but one day I might break that box too]. I only started posting when a topic I had some experience with came up and I just HAD to offer my delightfully insightfull knowledge. Since then I fairly regularily offer my humble opinion (or fact:) on things I know or I ask those who do. Is this a site for those new to the shooting sports NO. Is this a site for people to learn YES. BUT This is not a how to become a sniper in three easy steps (just doesn't happen overnight). It is really F****** annoying to see the same question again and again -even thought it is piss-my-pants funny to read 'lito replies.

If you really want to do this quick
1) Contact Jerry Rice or some other exceptional 700 smith and give him your $ tell him you want a gun (.308)
2) Order 4-5000 rds of Fed GM2 or the Blackhills 175's
3) Enroll in a course from Storm or ASA or Whatever
4) Be patient when people with less invested kick you ass
5) Keep Shooting and learning (order more ammo)
6) Replace your barrel and get some more work done - since you didn't know enough around the first time
7) Realise you now have a lot of $ and time invested (stay with it) and TRY to be patient when someone asks a question tht sounds real dumb when you asked it several years (or decades) later
8) Morale - there is no quick solution
 

Sorry for the wasted Breath - the unclean don't read these anyway

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 05:54:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Stan: the reason I don't worry is they are to busy patting themselves on the back for a paper victory again and again and again.
The again IF they do come for my gun I'll just put on my litle blue hat and fade into the crowd till I have a good shot:)
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 06:01:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Great Friend Moe: it's not "weird" it's "wired" ;-) HA! DOUBLE HA!

AL O: good to see yer back again! Been hiding out somewhere?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
land of the free, home of the brave, but for how long the USA? - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 06:34:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.230)

Is my computer busted or is there something perculiar with the print on SC. My screen is covered in curseph hand writing. It is blinding me to read it. If anybody else is seeing this sound off.

JC
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Eyes stinging from the straining, KY, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 08:44:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.40.26)

Dave: What's wrong with a 19 or 20" heavy barrel 308. Those factory short barrel PSS rifles hit to a 1000 consistently why not a custom rifle? I should still get around 2600 fps with decent powder burn out of a 19" barrel. I get it now in a light weight mountain rifle with a 20" #1 barrel with the same loads I use in my 24" Krieger barrel 308. Only problem is the light barrel heats too fast and starts to lose accuracy.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 11:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

"Is my computer busted or is there something perculiar with the print on SC. My screen is covered in curseph hand writing. It is
blinding me to read it."

Ga' morning JC... go to the edit box on the top of your browser, and look for something called "Prefereneces" (on Netscape... if you use IE, then it might be called somrthing different)... and then look through the selections... one of them will allow you to change the screen font and size.
(Of course, it might just be the Crayons you make notes on the screen with ;))

If you still have problems, drop Ken a line... he's real good at this stuff.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 11:57:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.119)

What load are you using to get that velocity and will the 168s still be supersonic at 1000yds at 2600fps???

I went the 260 route for my short rifle and have one with a 22" in a VS stock and I love it!! It makes a sweet shooting rifle and handles like a dream. With a heavy barrel (.940 at the muzzle) it weighs in at only 10lbs ready to go. With the high BCs of the 6.5s I have no trouble at all shooting to 1000yds.

Ken..
I was in a hurry yesterday when I posted so I probably didn't make much sence. I was tying to say that a quick easy way to make target stands is to weld a length of rebar across the top of your steel plate and then weld a hook on to a steel post or cut a hole through it so the rebar will slide through the hole and then simply drive them into the ground and hang the plate from them. this way you can put them anywhere. Once in awhile you may hit the rebar (if your really a good shot)HA, but then its easy to fix. This is the method I use because I like to set up multiple targets and its cheap and easy. (The way 'lito likes his women)!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 14:39:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Great a whole day without an attack.
 
 

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 15:16:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.43)

I just saw the thread on the UN, and wondered if anyone else has heard anything about former President Bill Clinton becoming the first American born Secretary General of the UN?

BRAVO, you hear anything on this?

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 16:04:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.177)

I too started playing with a "26 CAL." 6.5-06 (6.5x81) with RE19 and 142 MK's and am getting good groups out to 350 with a 21" Hart Heavy fluted barrel. Powder burn looks clean for the shorter barrel but I haven't gotten around to doing any chrono work yet so I don't have velocity figures. I also want to play with some of the slower powders with the same bullet to see what I get. My rifle is a Manlycher action, Canjar trigger, McHale adjustable stock, Hart fluted heavy barrel and a MK4 M1 with MK4 rings and a custom rail 30moa milled base. It weighs in just over 11 lbs with bipod and Mikes Quick cuff sling. About 5 1/2 lbs less than the current 308 and 8 less than the 300wm.

The 308 I have in mind would have Win short action, McBros LOD stock, and heavy fluted 19 or 20" barrel. Not sure on scope yet, considering Schmeidt & Bender 3x12x50 police tactical 34mm tube with badger rings and milled base. I'm looking for a tack driver out to 700-800 yds, anything past that would be pure gravy.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 16:43:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Later they learned that a more accurate translation was, "Be on the recieving end of an unnatural and intrusive act, clitorrio." The last word pretty much translates itself."

ROTFLMAO!!!!..........HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You're right, CDC, bad phonetic spelling but it gets the point across! That is too damn funny! Reminds me of when I was a little snot and my folks would drop me off to spend a few hours with my Nana and Nano. Nano would take me on the porch where Nana couldn't hear him and he would proceed to teach me "the phrase of the week." I always wondered why he was grinning like a dumb shit when he did this. Pissed off Nana and my folks royally! ROTFLMAO.........HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
 

Bravo - wired it is - as long as YOU said it!
 
 

BillB/ALAN - Don't believe everything the media pundits (poundits?) throw at us. Remember, they gave the election to Gore, too. Then again, maybe NY deserves BOTH of them!
 
 

Big Will - Try mounting your bipod without an adaptor. My Harris fits quite well on the Remy's forestock and it is fairly flatbottomed.

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 18:03:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.196.211)

Undude, whats your esteemed opinion on the SN3, 1.8x10........??
Also, have clicked around the forum looking for the two new articles.....guess I have overlooked them..can't , so far seem to be able to find em'.

Al O, glad for your return.....NOW, if we can just find Mr. Rogers!!!!

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 18:34:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.33)

No takers on the ruck question? Kind of surprising. Maybe I'll phrase it differently:

I've got a new Remmie model 700, and I got a Dewey rod because I was told that it's the best. When I try to shove the patch in the barrel though, the patch hangs on the crown of the barrel. What am I doing wrong? And how many of these can I stuff in a standard ALICE pack?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud USA, still looking for the punchline of the democrats platform - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 18:35:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 19:41:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

What I want to know from those of you who actually use the 50's: What is the range of it with, say a spitzer or even boattail bullet and a heavy charge pushing it ?

RogerK
roger.kissel@dscc.dla.mil

Roger Kissel <roger.kissel@dscc.dla.mil>
Ohio, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 20:28:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.18.4.231)

DisAsterRisk ("One Load, One Hole")
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 21:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.105)

Peltzer – Try Fm 23-10, FMFM 1-3b, FM 23-8, TC 23-14, FM 21-75, FM 20-3. These will get you goin in the right direction. They all have some errors and some are not purely sniper manuals, however they have info that pertains.

David – I have used that scope and it is a good scope, however I would spring for the Kowa, IMHO It has clearer optics and works very well. There are several models and there is one in that price range that works nicely. Another scope would be the newer Optolyth in the 60mm or 80mm. These are a bit pricier but you gets what you pay for and Optolyth is a fine scope. As much as I hate to let Torsten know that! :-)

Steve the problem with your question is that it has been gone over about 1000 times and is WELL COVERED in the Archives. We have holy wars over that question and it is not pretty when they start.

Al – You will never make a good Bench Rester, not anal enough. Now ‘Lito…… :-)

Mike – The day wasn’t over yet. :-)

CLINTON IS NOT HE ANTI-CHRIST!! His stupid wife is. Hell they both want the Peace Prize so much that they will do anything for it, to include sell out who ever is next on the list.

Roger – Accurate with the 50 depends on whos accuracy. If you are shooting at a man, I doubt you could consistently hit him much past 1200 to 1400. This means you slide up, compute range, wind, and ALL of the environmental effects. The wind will push that puppy pretty good and a misread by one MPH can cause problems when combined with other minor errors. Now if you mean the side of a house then you may go for 2000. :-) She, just as the A**wipe Waxman, is looking for the next “ugly gun issue”.

Someone e’mailed me with a ghillie suit question and I managed to lose the email before answering. Please retrans and I’ll get you your answer this time without the old man’s problems interfering.

Enough political country for now, will drink my beer and contemplate a lovely week of working with 5th SFG(A) in lovely fort Campbell. Make that tease or four beers, the anticipation is killing me!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 22:08:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.183)

Isn't just wonderful? Diane F. just does not have a clue about anything that concerns firearms, and she is treated by the liberal media idiots as an expert on the subject. Of course they are all idiots too.

I cant find that article about Bill Clinton and becoming the first American born Sec. Gen. of the UN, but it fits with all the things he has done to this country. I will keep looking and post a link here on the roster when I find it.

Bravo,

Did you ever get your AR from Geoff? Email me with the details of how it is setup if you dont mind.

Best Regards,
 
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 22:08:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.187)

Nope...Both wrong.
 
 

The answer was Gunnery Sgt. Dan Daly, a WWI era Marine.
 
 

There was another good Marine quote from that war that I wish I could remember. It had to do with the Marines just arriving to help out the French, who were, as usual, in retreat, and the quote was something like
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 22:50:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.239.32)

As I was saying...something like "Retreat hell, we just got here!" Got no more details on that one though.

Here's another Puller for you Bolt "Paperwork will ruin any military force."

Incidently, if you haven't read it, you may be interested in Martin Russ's book Breakout about the Chosin campaign. Check out his other books too.

Later,

andré <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 22:56:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.239.32)

If you absolutely have to go to a sewing shop without your better half, do not tell the nice blue haired saleslady that you are buying this stuff for a ghillie suit. I just ain't worth it!

Nuff said!

Glad I made home alive, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 23:00:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.117)

Last Sunday, in addition to the regular tactical match at Ft. Benning, there was a side match. It was called CQC (Close Quarters Combat). It was shooting multiple targets against time. The weapon of choice, I gathered, is the CAR-15 or M4 type .223 autoloader.

I have a regular 20 in. Bushmaster XM15 E2 HBAR, so that's what I shot. I had a 6x scope mounted in the carry handle. If nothing else, I provided some comic relief to the guys that could really do it. The main thing was, I LOVED IT !!!!

So, my question is: What would be, say, a good configuration for another upper assembly ( carbine type ) for this type of training?

I noticed CAR-15 type, some with flat top receiver having trijicon reflex II mounted. Also, some of the "red dot/amber dot" style aiming devices.

I was thinking like 16 inch carbine style upper with either reg. carry handle ( mount reflex site ), or, perhaps better might be a flat top receiver carbine to mount aiming device . Don't rightly know.

Some of you gentleman would know from experience and/or training. I don't. But this was a different, very challenging, and stimulating exercise. And a fantastic experience.

Any input would be appreciated.

Jeff A.
 
 
 

Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@bellsouth.com>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Tuesday, March 13, 2001 at 23:01:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.65.129)

Thanks,
Eric

Eric <alpine@coslink.com>
freezing, mich., USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 00:05:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.68.236.8)

Out.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 00:39:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.39)

Yes Sir, I realize that......Mr. C, cannot be the anti Christ.....
Only problem is, neither can Hillbillery.

Reason being, the REAL AC, won't care for the affections of wimmmens........leaves em' bof out.(;

Mr. Bill.....He's baaaccck......and AL O.......

What honor do we owe this to??......

Good to see you guy's agin....been wurried bout youse too....

Two Sopatos
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 01:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.63)

Roger: she's a treasoner and a traitor, nothing less. This is the same woman that suggested that since the only legitimate reason to own a rifle is to hunt, they could keep all rifles in neighborhood armories (state run you know), and release your rifle back to you, for a fee of course (storage tax), if you provided proof that you were going to hunt THEN. As in, legit hunting license, safety license, and the fact you've payed your rifles rent. Of course, after the hunt, it had to be returned.

CARs: Guru Bill: yeah, I got my Geoff carbine, and it's a looker. Even took it to Yuma to show it off to Patron Dave, wanted the stamp of approval on my choices don't you know! The best adjective I could choose for it would be "responsive". I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but I think I've stumbled across a winner. There are only a couple of things I'd do differently, but they're of no consequence. Such as going with the A1 upper instead of the A2. More personal choice than anything "right or wrong". I've also got the ARMS #39A2 for it, but don't have the Aimpoint yet to play with. When I do, that's how I'm going to go. At least for a good try with it. You know me, just buy, try, keep or sell ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 02:08:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.70)

CAR-15 set up for CQC[or B}...I'M a big believer in the Aimpoint Comp red dot sights...Several years ago, before all the aftermarket arrangements were available, Larry Vickers was cutting the handle of the new flat tops off leaving just the base of the removable carrying handle and the rear sight..A chunk of Weaver rail{from Brownells] was then mounted in front of the rear sight and the dot scope clamped to that..This set-up places the iron sights in the lower third of the scope and brings the scope down low enough to allow a good cheek weld with the slider stock. If your dot goes down, your irons are there in the bottom of the scopes field of view and can be used without repositioning your head. It's a bomber dubable set up. Most of my runnin' buddys have this set up on Colt 6721 tactical carbines. There are now several aftermarket type arrangements that accomplish pretty much the same thing, although I'd avoid the ones with the folding rear sight; it will probably be folded down when you need it most.
 

Bravo...ALICE capacity=37-109 Dewey rods depending on the number of bends per rod..

Did you perchance see the ABC news tonight?? Satellite tracking of cell phone users for their own safety!!!!!!Technology can apparently pinpoint your location..GLAD I don't have one..
 

David ..Bushnell spotter...My son had a fairly high end Bushy spotting scope in Wy. for one year guiding hunters...He dumped it for a Leopold compact 20X first chance he got..Only 25X are now available and I believe these are being discontinued[anyone????}. I use a compact also and find it more than adequate for my needs..
 

outa here
 
 

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Gingerly hobbling around with real footwear on in the Alleghenies on day 67, WV, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 02:28:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.87)

outa here againVarmint ammo fat in the Alleghenies
Markwell <markwell@Hardynet.com>
varmint ammo fat in the Alleghenies where cell phones don't work so we don't worry, WV, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 02:38:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.87)

So while your supposition that an expensive rifle should be better than a cheap one in the long run in terms of MOA may be ultimately correct, the fact is comparing even a target rifle to a bench gun is probably apples to oranges. A bench rifle worth even half a damn is ALWAYS going to be better accuracy-wise than even the best Rem 700 or Savage. And sorry, but it will also generally be better than a customized 700-based rig, like an M40 or, Chandler, or whatever. That's the nature of that beast.

An analogy might be to say that while a Corolla can get you from A to B in good order, overall an expensive vehicle is better, otherwise the NASCAR guys would be driving Corollas.

On the other hand, face it, virtually no rifle out of the box is worth diddley for REAL accuracy, until you've done something with the lawyer-lever (usually replacement), the stock, maybe a new barrel, etc. Once you've done all that, what do you have, a Rem 700? or a $1500-2500 Custom rifle based on a Rem 700 action? Maybe a proper comparison might be a user-fixed-up 700 vs a custom made 700 based rifle like a Chandler.

So in a way, if someone asks about a particular rifle like "I'm planning on buying a Savage 110FP, etc." who cares? Out of the box, the Savage is a reasonably nice rig for a great price. Fixed up, it's an even nicer rig. (Dianna Rigg is better still) If the shooter does nothing with his rifle (and I KNOW that none of YOU tinkerers would ever allow that to happen) then he may as well shoot anything at all, because it obviously doesn't matter to him anyway. And if the person DOES fix up the rifle, then it's no longer really a Savage 110 after a point anyway, so again, who cares?

I'd say that a 700 may be more recommendable because of aftermarket parts/smithing availability (though Pablito and his Winchesters may disagree), but let's face it: No one here will be shooting a stock ANYTHING within one week of bringing it home from the store. So who even cares whether so-and-so wants a Savage, or a 700, or an M70? It isn't going to STAY one.

Maybe a proper newbie approach would be to either keep quiet about the new rifle, whatever it is, if there is no fixing-up happening that anyone might be interested in. Or to say something like, hey, I got a new 110FP, would someone here who knows these rifles care to help me out via e-mail in doing a proper bedding job, or whatever. That way SC would be free of the pointless new gun announcements, while allowing the newbies to get the help they may need privately.

I second, or third, or fourth, or whatever it is now, Pab's recent post about this not being a beginner's site. Maybe we can all get away from the recurring Savage vs 700 debates, and the best starting load for the .30-06 conversations, and get back to the fun stuff again. Like maybe the CA shooters can share what the best type of night vision gear is best at an indoor range during a rolling blackout.

Enough of that.

(I apologize Bolt, this isn't aimed at you, it just kind of started in your direction.)

It's past this grumpy-boy's bedtime.

Semper Fi,
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, Sunnyland, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 02:52:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.246.154)

drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 03:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.70.185.153)

I took your advice, and researched my enemy (the UN). I stand corrected.
John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 03:47:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.174.137)

This weekend I was questioned on yours trulys humble choice for a combat optic - well I picked up the M4 and dropped it Acog and all onto the ground from 5 feet. I then went out and shot a DCRA 500m Service Rifle match rundowns and all with it (and won) without any need to re-zero ( I also had the high score at the 500M over C7A1's). The MAD rear flip-up is really solid unlike the plastic ELCAN backup (you got to wonder) I was quite amused when people laugh at the M4's 14.5" bbl and ask what I am trying to do in a rifle comp. It may not be a tack driver but it does a good job on minute of man to 600m. Though I did take the M203 off before the competition (it gets real heavy on the rundowns).

'lito, its snowing here so you can rest easy.
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 03:48:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

On the flip side, there's absolutely NO reason why you can't use the 20" barrel for CQB work. If that's all you got, you need to be proficient with it up close as well. Drop an ARMS cantilever rail and a reddot on it and PRACTICE.
 

Bravo wrote - "I've got a new Remmie model 700, and I got a Dewey rod because I was told that it's the best. When I try to shove the patch in the barrel though, the patch hangs on the crown of the barrel. What am I doing wrong? And how many of these can I stuff in a standard ALICE pack?"

Don't know what the problem is with the patch but I usually run mine through from the breach end with no problems.

I believe a standard ALICE pack will accomodate one (1) Remy 700 if you remove the action from the stock. You might want to consider the large ALICE pack! ;)) HA! Re-phrase it again, Bravo!

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 03:52:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.183)

André...
Dude-ski! Welcome back.

drmark...
Go to the month ot the archives you want, and use the word search feature of your web browser... it will be in the "edit" box at the top of the page. Click that, and look for "find in page".
When you have opened a month of the Roster, wait for the whole page to finish loding, before you start to search.

Kevin of the GWN...
Good... I am resting easy. Today, I saw my driveway, and sidewalk for the first time in months ;)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 04:16:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

Where is that lazy, low down, good fur nuthin, California-type, surfin, house-buildin, West Virginny livin, 308 shootin' dude, peteR. Get your butt out here peteR. Don't be shy!!

al o
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
The BEst Location in the Nation in , O-hi-er, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 04:20:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.140)

Regarding your comment about "Remingtons not being used for benchrest" sorry to burst your bubble. I pulled out my Feb. 2001 issue of Precision Shooting and noted the following on page 113:

North Carolina 1000 Yard Benchrest Association

Light Gun Category, Top 10 Group and Top 10 Score, there were 8 Remington 700 actions, 7 Bat, 2 Stolle, 1 Winchester 70, 1 AMT, and 1 Williams (8 out of 20 ain't bad).

Heavy Gun Category, Top 10 Group and Top 10 Score, there were 5 Remington 700 and 1 721, 8 Bat, 2 Hall, 2 Time, 1 geske, and 1 Nesika (6 out of 20 not bad either).

And I won't even talk about the custom actions that are based on the Remington 700 design!

Not try to talk smack, just didn't want you to have the wrong impression as to what could be done with a Remington.
 
 
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 04:50:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.2)

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 04:54:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.2)

Kevin OTGWN: Last time I did something like that (dropping my weapon), I got to do MANY pushups while being lectured about "allowing my weapon to contact the ground in an uncontrolled manner" ;-) Seriously, that's a GREAT test of optics stability. Shows you have confidence in your system that has been EARNED. If it wasn't for the batteries situation, I'd go with one. Oh, and thanks for keeping this shipment of snow, it's been a whole..... 36 hours since it came down! Now then, how about "reparations". I want the sun sent out here to clear all this stuff up LOL. And hey, I'd personally like to know what you're running through that M-4 at 500 that's doing so well. I'm assuming that the 500 is in Meters? That's danged close enough to 600 yards for me! Yup, we's gonna have some fun this summer.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, also called the UN occupied zone (USA) - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 05:43:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.167)

147 grain ball will move out quickly, as will 155 Palmas, but to get the maximum velocity to keep them moving accurately and supersonic I would imagine you'd need at least a 28 to 30-inch tube with a 1-12 or 1-13 twist. With a short, thick bull profile I may be wrong (look at the M60A3 machinegun -- but then it's a belt-fed area weapon).

I've been shooting a 22-inch barrel 7.62 for years (the M14), and the requirement to shoot a 7.62 bullet accurately at a 1,000 without beating up the gun has been the basis for discussion for a long time. But hey, besides benchresters, the Palma queers are almost as anal since their rules call for using a .308 Winchester cartridge with a bullet weighing no more than 155 grains at 800, 900, and a thousand. Don't see many short, bull barrel Palma rifles.

But I'm all ears to hear your results.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 07:10:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 07:19:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 07:44:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

"can the Roster Archives be searched for content or key words?"

Depends which ones you use.

Zipped ones? Unless you download them to your PC - no. When you have them on your PC (Windows, I don't know about Macs) you can use the standard Windows Find to search the UNZIPPED files for anything you want.

Unzipped ones? When you've got your browser open (Netscape and IE - I don't know others) click on Edit/Find (or just press CTRL-F), type in what you want to find in the page. Just remember it always search from the top (if DOWN selected) or bottom (if UP selected), unless you've clicked somewhere in the document, or highlighted some text (like with a previous search). In that case it searches from that place onwards. It does not search from where you are LOOKING at the Roster.
 
 

We are looking into changing the Roster and the way it works. Probably be something like the AR15.com type boards. I'm not sure whether Ken has made any progress on that. Ken? You looking at it? but I would still like to keep both the current formats, irrespective of whether we add a threaded/subjected format as well.

If we don't get something we want I'll try and write them in some or other scripting language - currently learning JavaScript & VBScript. ASP still to come within the next month and a half. When I'm done there I can see what will be best - both easy of use and performance.

Threaded/subjected will be easier to read and follow IF the posters keep to the htreads/subjects. And that will be the biggest problem to overcome - as I'm most definitely not going to be moderating threads for content, and moving stuff to other threads. I barely have to time to even read the Roster now.

But, when we go that route, archiving will most probably be easier (since we can write the scripts to do it automatically), and the stuff will be threaded by topic in any case, making searching for specific stuff easier.

But it is still a while before we'll be there.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 11:36:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Hey Bud,
Don't feel "Sheepish" about posting 'kay?

We will forgive you your trespasses.

1)Hanging with Benchresters
2)Failing to trade wit with the Patrons & Masters
3)Not Posting & Hanging with Benchresters
4)Not Posting & Hanging with Benchresters
5)Not Posting & Hanging with Benchresters
6)Not Posting & Hanging with Benchresters

Well Maybe................... :-)
 
 

Jeff A.

Will sent me the results, I would ask some of the guys you shot with on the AR upper issue. Thems some RESPECTABLE folks.
 
 

Master Rick,

Have fun on your leettle jaunt. (Shudder)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 11:54:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.186)

Anybody tried the OK Red Dot Sight? http://www.oktarget.cz/

I know the name sounds funny, brings to mind mediocrity LOL, but their product seems decent. Shipping for repairs would suck of course =\.
 

Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
Bay Area, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 13:41:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.198.191.2)

If your gun is shooting well at 100 and 200yds its probably the "Outside" factors playing havoc with your groups. If your and inexperienced shooter you may also be seeing your little mistakes in the basics that are showing up at the longer ranges such as trigger control, hold and follow through.

For every 100yds that you move out all of those little things become magnified. Then at 300+ you have to take the outside factors into your formaula. Then when you go past 600yds really strange things start to happen to your bullets!!! Good luck and welcome to the world of long range shooting.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 14:15:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

NO Remingtons at Bench Rest matches! That'll be the day!
Customs won't never shoot with bench guns! Andre, send me down some of that stuff your smokin!

Privacy; just as long as you don't think your e-mail is private...
cell phones can track and always have had that capability, however you could say the same thing for any device that communicates by ether. Cell phones just have the software to do it quickly. Phone booths are the same today and there's that "caller ID". Phone companies even have to provide access to digital streams by Feds who present them with paper work to trace or monitor any service they sell. Actually the phone company doesn't care where you are if you pay your bill. Your probably more secure with Low frequency Morse Code these days than about anything else. Or conventional RTTY (Radio Teletype FSK). Digitally encrypted moon bounce is good too. Coyote hunters use coyote howlers to communicate all the time! Try intercepting one of those transmissions. woof woof woooty woo-0000-woo-woo-woo! (translates- "Wiley 1 this is Wiley 2...you see those stupid SOB's with the shiny glasses.. over there on that hill! That's the worse call I ever heard! "

Eric; about all you can do to the VSSF easily is seat your bullets to max magazine length, use Varget powder, and neck size only your ammo.
(by just raising it slightly in the die about 1/16 of an inch from full stab just so you don't affect the taper angle).
Don;t be surprised it it halves your group size. You can load your bullets a little farther out if you single load and help a little more but that won't do for the real world. Always check each neck sized round in the chamber (with the safety on and muzzle in safe direction.) before you use it in a tactical match or other critical
application. This only takes a minute per box and it's worth it for the accuracy and dependablity you gain. Recrowning is a cheap way to deal with small problems the factory left for you.
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 14:49:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

On handloads:

Get yourself a Stoney Point OAL guage and Comparator. This will give you an accurate reading of OAL to lands. Then seat using the ogive of the bullet. This sounds harder than it is - e-mail me if you have questions. Get your velocity up to 2700. My best .308 load so far has been the 168gr AMAX over 43.5gr Varget loaded .030 off lands. The 175MK over 43.9gr of N540 loaded to mag length works well for distance.
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 16:50:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

I have written reviews of several US Optics scopes and Marius will put them up when he gets time. I will be going down to US Optics soon and will see what new stuff I can tell you about. I am picking up a new USMC Sniper Scope for review and helping with some designs for a few new projects. The reviews will go on SC. Still no contact from the new Unertal Company on one of their scopes for review. Funny?

A few have asked about C More scopes. Simply put they are made completely in Asia. Not american.

Undude
 

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 17:32:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Patron Dave: I'm gonna tell Geoff you said that too! LOL You know he was "Palma 20" for 3 years, right? The more I find out about that guy, the more I'm impressed. And it's hard to impress me ;-) And you've gotta love a guy that uses a M-14 carry strap for match rifle!

Wild Bill: right on my friend. If I could wish for one thing, it would be a comprehension of timing. If we start too soon, the cause is damaged, the movement destroyed, and we're "traitors" to the nation. After all, many times the only difference between a traitor and a patriot is the calendar. If we wait too long, then the battle is over by default, and we lose without the first shot being fired. This, as you say, is the strategy our enemies are currently using (and DEPENDING on). My only hope is that when the time is right, the spirit of Patrick Henry moves me to act, and that my aim is true. As for e-mail privacy, there was this little thing named CARNIVORE put into effect, they've got a list of who you e-mail to, how often, and what is in the subject line. That's for EVERYONE.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 18:40:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Will is being very kind and I thank him. The truth is, I have gotten a bit lucky a time or two. Really, there are many, many who are consistently way better marksmen, period.
You have to qualify to shoot with "the big boys" by placing or scoring a certain level to go to competitor class ( a/k/a big boys).

So now, I can go there and get my clock cleaned like last season :)
That's okey doke. Can't think of a better way to spend my time.

I shot the .260 with 142 MK's and 41.5 gr VV N550. My 260 likes this load, and it's about as hot as I go with powder. Actually, got the load suggestion from Capt. Bill Huskey.

BTW, thanks for the responses re: the CAR CQB set-up to all. Now, gotta find some dinero to make it happen. That side match was almost too much fun...

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@bellsouth.com>
Hotlanna, Jawjah, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 21:08:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.65.129)

And I notice 'Lito is still in total shock! :-)

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 21:14:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.207)

I am aware of the fact that there ARE 700 actions found in bench guns, but my point was and is that the 700 action found in a bench gun bears about as much likeness to what you can buy at Walmart as it does to a Savage action. Benchguys are NOT shooting stock 700 actions for the most part. This are highly refined and customized actions that were once 700's, and only technically are still. I would be very surprised if there were more than a small handful of 700's shooting in bench matches that were close to stock.

Exception is might be made for hunter/varmit class rifles, which are probably closer to stock, but I'm guessing that those 700 actions used in a 1000 yard bench gun are not the same as found in your Sedaro, or whatever.

Semantics aside, my point was that once you start fudging around with an action beyond a point, you can no longer start talking about what it can shoot as a stock rifle, as it is no longer stock. The argument that gun X is a better rifle to buy than gun Y, is somewhat invalidated when X is customized to prove the point. The argument in favor of the 700 should be made on the basis of commonality and availablity of parts/smithing, not on whether it shoots better out of the box, which is irrelevant to a tinkerer anyway. The fact that many more stocks are available for 700s, triggers, custom smiths, etc. is what makes a 700 a good buy, not how it shoots out of the box vs a Savage or Winchester. Make sense? Do many people on this sight, who are beyond newbie level, shoot stock rifles which haven't even had a trigger job?

And I still think that a highly tuned bench gun is a different animal than a custom tactical rifle. I would be surprised if even the best custom tactical smiths saw any point in doing the work required to make a consistant .5 MOA tac rifle shooting shoot an even more consistant .1 or .2 MOA. Nor do I think that the average sniper would want to be dealing with those idiosyncracies in the field anyway. Are there exceptions? Sure. Occassionally a truely magnificent and fluke tac rifle may be this good, or close to it. There are probably also (not-very-competative) benchresters shooting rifles that shoot crappy, but it's not the rule.

Sorry, this is turning into a tangent I think. I'll shut up now.
andré <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 22:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.236.254)

A majority of the folks in line to see it looked old enough to have participated in the Siege of Stalingrad, so I initially figured they had a personal or historical interest in the movie, but it turned out they were all plugged in to the free senior-ticket deal. Go figure. The rest of the audience turned out to be the artsy-fartsy movie reviewers for the local underground and college newspapers.

I just wanted to see Hollywood's take on the epic Zaitzev-Koenig sniper duel. The Studio Lady said that it was pretty much the final version, but welcomed comments.

Paramount took breathtaking liberties with history to round out the story - but what a story! Great Movie!

Without giving the whole thing away (Russia won), here are some of the things that stand out:

-Russian Sniper Babes!
-excellent demonstrations of firing loopholes
-burlap rifle ghillies
-hooded loden hunting capes (gotta try one of those - looks lots lighter than a ghillie suit)
-depressingly realistic-looking MOUT footage
-frank portrayal of Soviet Propaganda Machine as Zaitzev's springboard
-gratuitous evil ascribed to Major Koenig
-Bob Hoskins as General Kruschev
-Memorable Quote: "Every other man gets a rifle! The ones without rifles, follow the ones who do. When the one with the rifle gets killed, pick up the rifle and become the shooter. Keep moving!"

Final verdict: I'm even willing to PAY to see it again.

Earl North <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
K.C., MO, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 23:03:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.160.162.146)

None the less the ghillie is coming along nicely. Canvas panels and padding are attached. Going to attach pockets and leg zippers tonight. Found some replacement fishing nets to tie the burlap on. Have the burlap and Rit dye. Mesh is on it's way for the ventilation and veil. Gonna be real perty. Can't shoot for shit but might can look good trying! Can't find where I hid that hot pink and chartreuse paint though.
 

Andre, my hide is so thick nobody can get through it to hurt my feelings LOL!
 

How do you practice clearing a jamb when you don't have a gun that jambs? Hhhhmmmmm?
 

Al O., When is the Egg Shoot?
 

Guess I need to start hiding all my tactical and military clothes and gear. Have it thrown all over the place. Had a new fishing rod customer come in the shop last night and asked me if I was a mercenary or one of them there militia members or something! Told him that I couldn't tell him or I would have to eliminate him LOL! I think he believed me LOLLOL!
 

Getting long, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 23:12:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.127)

Pat: I appriciate feedback on 300-400 yard shooting. You said that I will have to get used to outside influences on my bullets at that range. Would a spotter with a scope be the best way to help me with setting for windage? Or do you have any tricks to doing this? Also what is "Mirage"? And what do I need to do for this?
 

Jon: I am glad to here you have a VSSF that shoots well for you. I think I will find that mine will do the same, once I learn to shoot it. You mentioned cold bore shots. I live in northern michigan where cold is a understatement! How baddly is this going to affect my first shots?
 

General question: Living in northern michigan does anyone know of any good places to shoot nearby? I did read the where to shoot section on this page. But it only has Oklahoma and Texas mainly. I do plan on attending some of the shoots, as they sound like fun. But I would rather not do that until I get some practice at long range. As I know I would embaress myself completely in the company of such great shooters.
 

Thanks for the time, sorry so long.
Eric.
Eric <alpine@coslink.com>
Mich, USA - Wednesday, March 14, 2001 at 23:54:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.68.236.8)

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