March 10, 2001 - March 14, 2001

Going to do the break in of my PSS this weekend, wish us luck =)

Anyone have suggestions for accessories either for the gun or shooting it in general that I might want to eventually get? I picked up one of those eagle stock packs, great recommendation guys! I love it and it puts my eye perfectly in line with the scope when I have cheek weld. I also picked up a Starlight case for my baby, however I can't get the middle two latches to close or open without the use of a crowbar. I'll have to give them a call Monday to see if I should send it back or if this is normal. Overall it's a very nice looking case and I like the handles and ridges for stacking much more than the Pelican Rifle case. Other things I know I'm going to get are an otis sniper cleaning kit, a good spotting scope, and probably an Eagle shooting mat. Any other suggestions you guys might have are always appreciated!

- The Good Jen

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Houston, Confusion, Texas - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 00:19:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.218.245.6)

Tom - .308 running out of steam before 1000 yards?...Hmm I don't know about that. I was shooting my .308Towed at Quantico on the 1000 yard line. Dudes in the pits (via radio) were giving me the impacts - and said the rounds sounded nice-n-supersonic passing overhead. No that's not an accurate chrono - but it's above XXXX feet per second.
This was black hills 175grn match, out of a 26" barrel.

Ken
Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 01:52:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Just saying what i think.

montrose
MONTROSE <bellm@constellation.navy.mil>
fpo , ap, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 02:16:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.56.145.38)

The latches on the Starlight case ARE a bitch to open and close. I think it's because of the friction-fit action. The two on the right of my case are the bad boys for me. It appears that with continued use, they are tending to loosen up some. The pressure valve has no bearing on how the latches function.

My knuckles are healing quite nicely now, thank you very much!

I also have bungee-corded a small rubber mallet to the case just in case! LOL

I carry my Remy 700 and my Colt R6551 in the case at the same time which makes for a heavy load but they don't move around in there. Now if I could only find a good Sherpa that works cheap! :-)

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 03:42:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.184)

Mike M is 100% right on the MP5. Sweet (the gun not that old frankenstein nuts and bolts creation)-but you do need FA to be effective. Train the finger to shoot short bursts, not the machine.

As to rifles being FA capable. I agree with Kevin eh?... There is a limited use for well trained officers with this tool. Note that Kevin alluded to a SWAT scenario, but he didn't go into detail. He is also right, well trained personnel with limited usage of that capability.
Regular patrol, if equipped with a rifle system, should be SA only. Shot placement..shot placement....shot placement.

Flash..you already know the reasons for the facemask (aka balclava). Stop busting balls dude!

Bravo beerski- I just got the Eagle version of that leg pouch without the grenade pouches...and it fits the magpul. Kevin OTGWN was the guy who first turned me on to those things. I think they or Blackhawk makes it in 308 sizes...

JC- I laughed so hard I really almost did ROTFLOL...........
Take care dudes-Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:02:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

The equivalent for .30 cal are 250 and 268 grainers that mimic the Sierra 220 Match King dimensions.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Michael Taylor <taylor2@cdsnet.net>
Grants Pass, Oregon, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:35:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.164.163.108)

1. what is the rifle being fired on the back cover of bob forker's AMMO & ballistics?

2.anyone remember "navy Seals" the movie? remember "GOD?" remember how he fired the m82 standing upright and it phased him not? remember how it's holywood and fake(though the toggle infared scope would be cool)? well, what would happen if some real(dumb or brave) person tried it? I am in no way reccomending it

3. in the movie "sniper", billy zane has a odd techie thing in his scope what is it and is it real?
3.2 in what scene is what legend ripped off?

4.if a .50bmg with 4-5 tons of energy at 200 yardscould somehow transfer all of that in to the average midsized sedan, would it A.flip the car b. rock the car. c. blow out the shocks and tires. d something else?

5. .50bmg PISTOL, true/false?

if you could shoot anything you wanted with any kind of gun/cartridge/bullet combo, what would it be? (you, know, fun stuff like fruit cars, bricks, deer ) mine'd be 2 galolons of jellied gasoline surrounded by flares(i have pics, don't ask)
 

ok this is my last thing of the whatever day it is

nitro_pb <nitro_pb@hotmail.com>
wv, ms, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 05:14:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.220.144.181)

Answer to question 3.2

What scene? = Where the enemy sniper was shoot threw the scope.

Legend that was ripped off? = Gunnery Sargent Carlos N Hathcock II
 

Montrose
MONTROSE <bellm@constellation.navy.mil>
fpo, ap, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 05:42:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.56.145.37)

The answer to your question depends, in part, on what you plan to do with your rifle.

If you're Law Enforcement looking for a duty gun, the Chandlers have made a cogent argument that 20 inches is better. The 20 inche rifle is lighter (by about a pound as I recall) and balances better. At typical LE ranges the difference in velocity is negligible. A shorter barrel on a lighter rifle also will make your stalk easier if that is part of your planned use.

On the other hand, if you're going to routinely be shooting at 1000m, then the 22 inch barrel may still be too short.

So, the bottom line is, What is the design mission?

Frances
Frances <francis.fitzpatrick@bakernet.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:08:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.53.242)

5. .50bmg PISTOL, true/false?

True.

Frances
 

Frances <francis.fitzpatrick@bakernet.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.53.242)

Just a note, the match letter is ready for this years Sniper Competition and Train-Up. Drop me an email and I'll push it right back to you. We already have a bunch signed up from last year.

I know one of you will be lighter on your feet this year...Right Elmer Fudd?

Rod
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.115.131)

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 07:01:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.74.9)

As far as the full auto thread:
I agree to a point. F/A's have little purpose in LE, because as it was pointed out, too hard to control and you run the risk of innocents getting killed.
But, I believe that M-4's with three round burst are very appropriate. If I had to go through a door on a felony warrant or known that the perp was heavily armed then that three round would be really nice to have and their have been many times that the bad guys did out gun the police.
When I was policing in the Ft. Worth area, we had a militia group who was heavily armed and very anti police and there had been problems with them.
I know I may get flamed on this but if I had to serve warrants on these extremeists type groups who ran afoul of the law, then a M249 or M240G would be ideall weapon to have. What the heck you gonna do, when you get pinned down by some extremeist group, who for whatever reason is gone out on the limb and drawn some serious attention to themselves, and has you outgunned? How are going to be able to unpinn yourself? Don't you want the ability to be able to bring unrelenting rain of lead to keep your butt alive?
Last I remember, calling up the military to go after civilian law breakers was against our constitution. We got to be able to pull our own butts out of the fire.
Now as far as BATF, they were wrong to procure all those big time weapons. They should have been put out of action years ago. That is one agency who has gone too far. I have had to deal with them on a personal basis and it was mighty uncomfortable to know they had a file on me and that was just so I could get a SN generated for a pistol.
Sorry to rant and take up bandwidth, I will step down off my soap box now.........and return you to your normal programming.

Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 10:20:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Pak
pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 10:33:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Extreamist groups? Darn if I can remember any big shoot-outs between them and the cops. (Waco doesn't count, IMHO, because in the first place it was the Feds, and secondly it never would have happened at all if experienced street cops had executed the warrant in a reasonable and prudent manner.)

Pakrat, you would have been right a year ago, since using the military against civilians was illegal then. But last summer the law was changed, supposedly to allow the military to combat potential terrorism here in the USA. Unfortunately, "potential terrorists/terrorism" wasn't very well defined, resulting in the military now having almost total freedom to intervene in domestic LE situations. This could be good, or bad, depending on what happens down the road.

Raid Masks:

Mike T, I know what masks are supposed to be for. But that reason doesn't hold water if there isn't any prior evidence of flamibles. What concerns me is that people in general are prone to do bad things when they believe their identity is concealed.

Take normally law-abiding people who find themselves in riot situations for example. The aninimity of being in a crowd encourages many to do bad things they wouldn't otherwise do.

The same can be said of KKK members when wearing masks. And armed robbers. And rapists. And......

That being the human case, masked government agents are not a good idea IMHO, except when they are facing a "real", PROVEN fire danger. Otherwise, allowing cops to wear identity concealing masks UNNECESSARILY is likely to lead to police excesses and abuse. Just as allowing the UNNECESSARY use of full-autos is.

I'm not breaking balls Mike, just being honest and realistic.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 12:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.11)

"Pakrat, you would have been right a year ago, since using the military against civilians was illegal then. But last summer the law was changed, supposedly to allow the military to combat potential terrorism here in the USA. Unfortunately, "potential terrorists/terrorism" wasn't very well defined, resulting in the military now having almost total freedom to intervene in domestic LE situations. This could be good, or bad, depending on what happens down the road."
 

Flash, please explain what law was changed and how it squares with the Constitution. I don't recall any new Constitutional amendments being passed recently. Of course, I might have been sleeping but friend Bravo would certainly have noticed! :)

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 13:33:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.29)

Sniper Foo Rant Mode returning to neutral.
 
 
 

Good Jen - Get the Eagle Drag Bag/ Mat combination (In Review) and BE HAPPY. Ask Patron Pablito about them if you don't believe me. Great for field carry, but lose them before commencing a stalk.
Both Slug Boy and Master Rick had some ASTUTE comments on them about two weeks ago (Archieves) that are definately worth reading.
 
 

Its Cardio time...............Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:22:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.212)

Select fire and LEO. No place on the street for a machine gun. Most of us can't hit dick with our hand gun, let alone a machine gun. Liability is too high for stray rounds to hit an innocent bystander. We are allowed to carry AR/Bushy with a low powered optic system. Also 9mm carbines with iron sights (a RRRRRRRRRRRRRUUURRRGGGGH carbine). .223 is largest caliber allowed.
 
 

Be safe.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:23:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.5.38)

Select fire and LEO. No place on the street for a machine gun. Most of us can't hit dick with our hand gun, let alone a machine gun. Liability is too high for stray rounds to hit an innocent bystander. We are allowed to carry AR/Bushy with a low powered optic system. Also 9mm carbines with iron sights (a RRRRRRRRRRRRRUUURRRGGGGH carbine). .223 is largest caliber allowed.
 
 

Be safe.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.5.38)

Rod, that rifle became what is known as the .308Towed (my wife named it). Since then, all the deviling that I took, lead to most of the heavy rifles in this crowd being known as 'towed rifles'

Ask Pablito about 'towed' rifles....once he gets his .50 out of jail

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 15:07:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

check the link for Swiss Munitions, I visited their booth at the IWA show yesterday. Good stuff. They will send some samples for my next Class.

..............

Pretoria Metal Presses ( PMP)

I just bought a case of 1.400 surplus 155 Grain 7,62X51 at 18 Cents a pop. Marius any info on this stuff ?

I was looking at fodder for my "hole in the barrel, case throwing, M14"

t
click here for Swiss Munitions Website <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 15:13:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.151)

Pakrat, live in the DFW area......what militia group/s were you guy's having problems with......
Don't recall any problems with Militia groups around the metroplex.???

Flash, except of undercover ops, and the aforementioned fire scenarios.....you are dead on.

Only the Lone Ranger got to wear a mask.......And Zorro.

Mask's usually only remind me of one thing....Hoodlums, and thieves........nuff' said.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:00:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.182)

Thanks for the help

Andy
Andy Mussack <scoutsniper15@yahoo.com>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:34:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.53)

What do you call the white or light brown face above the blue or black vest? Target indicator.... Unless you would prefer a facepaint.
That smacks of militarization. Further, people spray all sorts of stuff at us nowadays. I would try to protect my skin a bit. The Avon lady just doesn't sell a makeup that suits me............

However, I agree that a mask may be used unnecessarily(the cool factor?). A SWAT raid is not one of those times though. To conceal a UC identity-definatly.
To go on a call to break up a loud crowd? NO. When (if) it turns into a riot- YES. . Protection is the key.

Honestly- I wear a green or white insulated one while sniping in the cold season for warmth. Perhaps you guys understand my reasoning now.

Packrat- No S*&$!!! Have you guys ever tried the 12 ga. launchable flashbangs?

Mike T

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:39:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Don’t even get me started on BATF!

Nitro – Have shot it standing a bunch of times especially when I have to give demos. It si easier on my old body. Have also shot the 14.5mm standing and it does not phase me a bit. I weighed in at an astounding 165 at that time.

OK, rant off and waiting for the call for fire.

OH YES, no part of the constitution prevents the army form doing police work. As a matter of fact the militia was used regularly for that function. That is the reason for the statement of a “well regulated militia, being necessary for a free state”. Now think in terms of the unregulated (or uncontrolled if you will) and you have a POLICE state. Kinda like cops with full auto and no regulator valve on when to use them. :-) The police departments did not come into effect until the 19th century. Posse Comutatis (sp?) is a law passed to keep the military from working as law enforcement agencies, except in the event of national emergency and martial law is declared.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 17:01:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.181)

The lsraeli Krav Maga was orginally founded in WWII in the Warsow ghetto by some jewish resistance fighters. They did not have time to train their people for years but they had only days. These people fought the nazis with bare hands until they got enough weapons and they fought them with those wepaons some more. Nazis killed most of the jews in Warsow but the founder of Krav Maga did escape. He died a few years ago in Israel, he was close 90 years old when he died.

I have trained the civilian version for 18 months beofre my job statrted to take too much time. I have trained TaeKwondo for four years and one of the tougher version of Ju-Jutsu (Hokutoryu) for 2 years. I would say that of thiose arts if you want to learn how put the attacker down and out in the shortest possible time, Krav Maga is the ticket.

Krav maga is not pretty and it is not a good sport because it concetrates on the core of self defense. Therefore as a sport (for good condition etc.) other martial arts are better. It does not even look nice but it is effective.

For self defense Krav maga is VERY good but the liability side is problematic. Killing or disabling the attacker for good is not very appropriate in many jurisdictions. Depends of course on the type of attack and circumstances.

There are two (or three) versions of Krav Maga. The mildest version is tought to civilians for self defense purposes. This is tough enough for self defense. For military and police there is an advanced style that involces the usage of firearms and knives. The third version is an even more advanced version of the military krav maga. The concetration in this version is to use Krav Maga in the offensive. Basically most of the stuff is various assasination or prisoner snatch tehcniques. Or so I have understood it because I have not attended these courses.

If you want to learn proper Krav Maga, find out a teacher that is certified by the Krav Maga Association from Israel. If he is not certified, he is a fake.

For general self defense training and condition building I would rate Hokutoryu Ju-Jutsu better than Krav Maga. The techniques are also a little bit easier on the attacker. I would not want to explain to the jury that "I had to crush his throat because I did not know anything else to do". Ju-Jutsu gives you more options in thsi regard. Of course there are lots of different martial arts so these are not the only ticket, but I fel Krav Maga and Ju-Jutsu are the best for self defense in the new millenium.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 17:09:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.120.45)

Sorry to burn space with only one sniper related topic, but I(obviously) have some strong opinions on this.

MikeT, I have to question the logic of throwing multiple(or even one) flashbangs into a school bus. I'm assuming you expect to have it loaded full of kids. I've driven those things full of kids before, and that just seems like a very "Bad Idea"(TM)

BTW, question for Undude. Did you attend the HRST course at Camp Pendelton, maybe two or three years ago? If so, could you please E-mail me. I think we might know some of the same people. Semper Fidelis...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 17:34:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

For Break In does it really matter what kind of ammo you use assuming you're using standard rounds vs molly coated? Basically should I be using my Federal Gold Medal Match for the break in or would any off the shelf rounds work?
 

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Houston, TX, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 18:24:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.218.245.6)

LE F/A it was not for street use - but for Tac/ERT/SWAT issues.
I know some people have issues about the militarization of LE, I still feel that their are some applications for F/A fire in LE ERT work. As far as the Colt M4 goes - their burst system sucks huge - so the options are semi only or semi&auto.
Our British friends use it in their Entry work - as do a lot of other Mil teams.

I will attempt a more detailed version of my previous officer down scenario.
ERT serves a warrant on a suspected drug lab. They have already set up inner and outer perimeters and ensure that the neighbours have been evac'd. Four team mbrs approach the dwelling - when fire errupts -since the team had only one sniper (manpower issues) he was not able to give detailed obs. three constables go down. The uninjured member attempts to toss a flashbang into the blown out window, and perimeter team members then proceed to fire short bursts while other team members sprint forward to recover the injured.

Most teams up here have only one sniper per team (no trained S/O combo either) I don't agree with that either but I don't command a LE agency.

I will know let this go away.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 18:25:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Flash and Two Shoes- I totally disagree with you on your statements that the balaclavas are unnecesssary, especially for SWAT operations.
You both agree on flammability issues and (I assume both) U/C work. They are a great idea for normal SWAT operations due to several reasons including:
1)Glass shards, door framing splinters etc flying around.
2)Remember that bad guys have developed an alarming tendency to have liquid based nasty stuff to spray on the officers also. Would you prefer some protective cloth or the latest base makeup form the Avon lady for this?
3) What do you call the white or light brown face sticking up above the dark blue armor? Target indicator! I would try not to point out a vulnerable spot for bad guys to shoot at. Unless camo paint would be preferable....not.
4) Intimidation. Whether you wish to agree or not, if you can scare the bad guys enough they can stop what they are doing. Safer for them, safer for me.

I view it as a piece of protective gear. Would you take away the goggles or protective glasses from the guys because it obscures their face?
Honestly, I use a green or white balaclava when the cold season hits-for warmth. I kind of doubt I will intimidate them from the inside of a bush 150 yards away.

Is a balaclava needed (or even a good idea) for regular police work. Absolutly not. Both of you are dead on here IMHO. Just don't paint everything into a corner without seeing the reasons first.

Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 19:18:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

PMP (Pretoria Metal Pressings) make the ammunition for the South African military. If the ammo you bought is standard military there is nothing wrong with it. It is most definately not the most accurate, but then show me official military ammunition that is. But you need not worry - it will not blow up your rifle.

Terry,
Man, but you are complimentary! First you laugh at 'Lito's idea of me getting upset with him, and now you're calling me a commie. What next? A Clinton supporter?

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 19:27:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.117)

As far as ID-We have had contracts put out by gangbangers on some of our guys and the next city over had the same thing happen. They even put out a contract on the police friendly prosecutor. Guess who was not named and so weren't concerned. JUDGES. (actually-to be fair- some were concerned. Just not most)We just prioritized our lists and took care of business. The jails got filled up.

The gol darned court system needs a total revamp. OPen season on lawyers!!LOL!!
Not to give you the wrong impression, but even the Mafia had a "hands off the family" policy. The gangs now look at families as the legitimate targets. If a bad guy wants to go after me, come and get me. If a bad guy targets a family...all bets are off.

Rick- Speed, surprise, severity of assault. And IMHO Nomex is real good for transmitting heat...Actually- IMHO, the military is, to their detriment, becoming more like the police. They are being sent in to learn less lethal techniques and raid tactics that police use.
If there is a war-send in the troops and give them all their tools. Do not restrict their ROE them to use them to enforce UN decrees in Upper South Yak country. Rant off-too much bandwidth.
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 19:41:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Thanks
JR <abunaix@earthlink.net>
Redondo Beach, CA, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 19:56:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.152.20.33)

For those of you who don't visit the Home Page (WHY NOT?!?), I hav ejust posted peteR's Lapua Reloading Manual review, and also Mike's Nightforce NXS review - two more to come a bit later.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 20:45:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.168)

I surely wouldn't call you a commie......(:

Mr. Mandella is the one I have problems with......
And his ex wife...... The Goodyear tire and rubber queen Queen.

As for lito's comment it was darn funny......like a school kid, and Dad was gonna get on his butt....you know lito'...he has a special "knack", and way of putting things!!!!!!!

Really, no offense intended or directed at you.......
I don't even know you!!!
Or, Torsten....got him twisted also.......sorry.

Sorry if I stepped outa line....I just am a little "opinionated", at times.
It goes back to the embargo, Krug's were not imported,Boycott, the screws were being turned by the Intl community....
I saw/see it as PC........
Between the Feminazi's, The NOW gang, and the other left wingers.I have a tender side when I see the Intl community getting invoved in other nations affairs.......unless there is a mass genocidal issue.....
Kinda like, Serbia, and Croatia.....we went in there balls to the wall..
Of course that was inour "National", interest.

Where was the Intl community, when the Tutsi's, and the Hutus(sp), were committing mass genocide.......????.
Wrong color, wrong country..........

Of course, every one has the right to their own opinion...even if it may be wrong......

Sorry for the political rant........Back to Sniper Country.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 20:47:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.213)

Pakrat: glad to know you gave us the respect we deserved. Yes, as a DFW boy, I was part of the militia you mentioned. And yes, there were anti-cop sentiments. Why? 'Cause I just happened to be there when one of ours was executed by the Arlington cops. They said he was "armed and acting eratically". DUH, we were "in our cups" that night, just leaving the pub, and he was walking down the street (driving is illegal and immoral when drunk). Oh, and they never identified themselves as cops, just started issuing orders. That was before the shooting started. All of the shooting was by the cops, as our guy was completely unarmed, not even a pocketknife. The illegal harassment was obscene. We are all lucky that I was young and stupid at the time, if I'd known then what I know now, there would be many less enemies of the free republic now, especially in the peoples republic of Arlington. All legally of course. It should be noted that such offense was taken to our goals (liberty, freedom, civil rights, an end to tyranny and other nasty things), that the pub we met in was closed down by the city, forcably. However, there was one guy in our gunclub, a swat cop from North Richland Hills, that looked into it significantly. He never said a negative word about it to me. Maybe that's 'cause most were the definition of "PATRIOTS". By the way, it was because of these problems with the murderous gungho local ordinance enforcement officers that I carried a full sized battle rifle with me at all times. I figured that they might try to murder me next. Oh, and "ran afoul" of "the law". As long as "the law" is defined as "the local ordinance enforcements whims". At the time, as now, having a loaded rifle in ones vehicle was legal. Until someone got messed with, because "he had no reason to have a rifle". But I'm sure they were really good men, just "misunderstood". But that was a good enough reason to ask to search the vehicle. Which was legally refused. So he got to wait a couple of hours while they got a warrant. While handcuffed like a common criminal. Of course, there was nothing there, but they "confiscated" the rifle anyway. Why? No laws broken, but "he had no reason to have a rifle". 3 years later the DA dropped the all charges and the case, notably 4 minutes before the trial started.

I'm far from anti-PEACE OFFICER, but I'm way anti-attrocity and tyranny. It might not apply to you, but heed this well: you guys start carrying or using full auto anything, you're going to see way more than you did. That's pretty much a promise, 'cause most aren't PEACE OFFICERS. I can guarentee you this too, NOBODY likes having a weapon pointed at them, and they like it even less if they're deemed "not worthy" of trusting with anything greater than a battle rifle and you're pointing with a submachinegun or sturmgeweher.

As for masks, I *DO* understand the real reason you guys wear them, and I agree, some protection to the face is EXTREMELY justifyable. But I live life a little different. Bro Two SHoes brought up the lone ranger, and that's great, but you remember that EVERYONE drew on him first, 'cause of the mask. That's a NORMAL reaction. What's that reaction get you in real life? DEAD. "well, he drew at us first!". Yeah. I live soundly in the camp of Jeff Cooper, who says that a mask IS a target indicator. I'm a peaceable guy, and wouldn't shoot anyone unless I had no choice, but in the middle of the night, where the confusion is the highest (designed that way by the bump and thump gurus), am I realistically going to see that little bitty "POLICE" or the mask on the face? Eyes naturally try to find EYES. Is there gonna be lots of shouting and yelling to add to my confusion? Also designed that way. Personally, I think I'd opt for the bioshield, and take my chances. Friendly fire doesn't become nonlethal fire. After all, it's much easier for me to roll 90 degrees onto the CAR and open fire than it is to ask over the thump, bump, and yelling "what are you doing in my home? Are you police or home invaders? Do you have an open warrant signed by a local magistrate?" Not with full autos coming in the door.

RANT MODE OFF

Friend Moe: yup, Master Rick is 100%, it changed. Instead of the military not being allowed to deploy on our soil, now they're allowed to fight terrorists and work drug stuff. Another casualty in our "war on drugs", the American Way. That's why you saw those Army slicks at Waco. Don't worry though, our politicians are good, honest, law abiding people that only have our best intentions in mind. I'm sure these shackles are light, and don't limit us TOO much.

Marius: I'd *NEVER* call you a commie, and I don't think that was the purpose of the statement of bro Two Shoes. I will, however, call mandella a commie any time, and a suspected terrorist as well. How does one have executed and tortured students in ones home and NOT know?

Friend Mike: sounds like you took care of business quite right! Hourah for the good guys. There's one thing I won't accept from ANYONE, and that's domestic terrorism. I've got animousity of dope runner gangs to spare. On lawyers, I think Bill Shakespeare had it checkmate-in-one.

Guess this is what happens when there's snow on the ground and burn in my muscles. Sorry for the bandwidth usage. Hopefully, we can ALL figure out how to live peaceably together. Maybe that "walk a mile in the other guys shoes" thing. Mine are size 7 desert boots ;-) Maybe I ought to slide back into lurk mode for a while now that I've got stuff "stirred up".
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, where ordinance enforcement officers enforce unconstitutional UN laws, the UN occupied zone called the USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 20:51:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.194)

Back to sniper foo!!

We are looking at upgrading our cold weather gear. Basically newer Gore-tex with appropriate underclothes or a version of wool hunting clothes.
The team is looking at the Gore-tex for rain/wet weather protection.
Military guys swear by this.
The wool is quieter and warm by itself but not waterproof. Hunters swear by this.
For a sniper hide in the snow what has worked out best for those in the know. Remember -what is best for a long time of lying still.
Kevin eh? You might, just might, have dealt with snow! LOL!!

Thanks-Mike T
 
 
 
 

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 21:50:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Do any of you have the , or used the NF 5.5x22, NPR1 scope and reticle set up??..

If so, what is your opinion......
Especially as compared to the MK4M1's.....I know they are two different animals.......

But, I am desiring a scope to do LR target and figure the OLD style NF scope to be better than the New NXS.........( problematic, so I have heard).
Before any of you go off on me....I know about the archives..and I doubt this question is posed there.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 21:53:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.53)

i'm done
nitro_pb <nitro_pb@hotmail.com>
wv, ms, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 22:43:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.220.144.212)

John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 23:26:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.174.4)

"i am confused and bothered..."

Yes inded!

One "4" shot group, does not an accurate rifle make.

The difference between a $460 "El Cheepo" outfit, and a $2000 to $4000 rifle, is profound.

Take your outfit out with the Remington Core-Loks, and shoot a 10 shoot group, and let us know how big it is... not the best 4 out of 10, but the whole 10... and do it again, and again... shooting five 10 shot groups, and tell us the size of your WORST GROUP... that is the capability of your rifle... not the best 4 out of the entire afternoon.

Take a bunch "Neco-Wafers" and stick them on a target with a drop of glue... do about 50, and tell me how many you can hit... by just taking your rifle out of the bag, and start shooting... first shot counts... oh, by the way... every 5 shots, turn the elevation up 20 clicks, down 40 clicks, and up 20... and the windage, left 20, right 40, left 20... and keep on shooting again. do that elevation/windage thing every 5 shots (it'll let your barrel have a chance to cool ;).

Let us know how you do!!!

"... why is there so much randomness and hypocracy surounding accuracy?"

I don't know where the idea of "hypocracy" comes into it, but at the low ($340) end of the spectrum, there are a lot of variables that effect accuracy. At the high end of the spectrum, the variables have been reduced, or removed completely.

"If guns are so innacurate from the factory as to warent immeadiate fixing befre they can hit paper( which is the feeling i get from many gun writers) than why are they still made that way?"

Because there are thousands of guys want to spend $340 for a gun (but want hand fitted accuracy of a $2000 to $4000 rifle).

"If oyu bought chairs and had to adjust all the legs, every time you bought one, do you think you'd accept that? no, you'd spend
alot more and get one that sits a little better, if not perfect."

Then "spend a lot more for one that shoots a little better, if not perfect!!"

"... the phrase "out of the box accuracy" pisses me off."

Then shop a little higher up on the food chain of riffles!
There are rifles that have "out of the box accuracy"... read the Archives, they have been talked about here... but you don't get them for $340, at "Wally-world", or as a K-Mart's "Blue light special"

"i'm done"

Me too ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 23:44:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.119)

My thoughts on drug labs would be toss in a WP and get out the marshmellows.

John it is common to sight black iron sights
 

Mike T gortex is the cats ass - but I personally like it as a mid level garment in a tactical situation. It can be noisy and shiny etc.
But it is much better than any of the other options out there
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 23:50:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

That being said I got a really good BH story for the campfire (and Bravo brew) at Mike's class in July

YOU DON'T GET IT BOTH WAYS

JUST like the longhairedtreehuggingsandalwearingdopesmokingfriendsofJesus
who demanded the military go to Somalia, Rwanda etc. to save all the staving kids - then get all choked at the military for shooting some bugger

One or the other, not both

RANT OFF

I will now attempt to ignore all socio-political comments and devote it to sniping topics.
 
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 00:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Druglabs: I don't have any experience in drug labs, unless you count a legal pharmaceutical lab ;-) The stuff used in them makes gasoline look like lamp oil. You get any of the major organic solvents around any kind of source, you've got a fireball that'll take up way more space than a WP grenade. Seriously. That's why all the good (read LEGAL) labs have ventilation systems that you wouldn't believe. One doesn't take notes IN the hoods, the papers suck up through the ceiling. Oh, and the "P" in "WP", is one of the major ingredients in the common dope.

Mike, my great friend, of course there's PLENTY of room for opposing opinions! And if I think one thing, and you think I'm nuts for thinking that, you'll just have to hold your tongue while I pour Bravo Brew down your throat ;-) Seriously, I wouldn't think of telling you how to do your job, not in the least. I won't armchair quarterback it! On the winter gear, I've been using the goretex parka for years. It's one of the best things on bikes to cut the wind, and I *LOVE* it in the snow. I only have 2 complaints. First off, it's noisy. You can hear most every motion you make while you wear it. Second off, it's in woodland camo, I'd prefer desert ;-) After about a year or so, the stitching started unraveling, so my wife sewed it up HARD. And I still wear it, virtually daily in this crap weather (it's STILL snowing NOW!!!).
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Dangerous?, I'm not dangerous, that's Wild Bill's group!, in the UN occupied zone called the USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 00:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.150)

Get a good thermal break to lay on if you are going to be in the snow for a while, and LOTS!!!!!!!!!!!! if hand warmers.

I have found the GI Gore tex too noisy for my tate for winter use.

Hope this helps..

Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 00:11:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

Click on my name and take a look... Any guesses as to what Im up to? Quiet Pablito.... No - it does not involve explosives.

Ken
Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Workin' on a Project, in chilly Northern Va, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 01:56:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 01:58:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.30)

That opinion is based on 13 years as a military brat and 23+ years in law enforcement, "mustanged" up from corrections to administrations and now currently running a road shift.

I don't see the need for select fire F/A weapons for LE, except for special units, and even then they're over-rated. Spray and pray has no place in a community.

IMHO....
CVDRIVER <Brownsilva@aol.com>
Cold & Damp, FL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 02:27:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.154)

Thanks

LTC Ray Hatmaker USA Ret
R Hatmaker <RGHAT@AOL.Com>
Loudon, TN, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 02:57:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.53)

Re 15 is a good powder for the 175/308 combo, but burns a bit dirty.
 

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:20:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.30)

Active and Reserve component United States Armed Forces cannot participate in domestic (civilian) law enforcement operations, period. We can provide advice and equipment, but we do not assist in planning nor in execution. Unless deputized, we have no powers of arrest.

If we snatch a knucklehead like a "Person Indicted for War Crimes" he is handed over to an FBI agent. A fugitive drug runner gets passed to the DEA (remember the tapes of Noriega on the plane with all the blue windbreaker guys?).

Mir Aimal Kansi (the knucklehead who shot three CIA staffers dead as they sat in rush hour traffic) was snatched by the FBI in Pakistan. The killers of DEA agent Enrique Camarena in Mexico were snatched by locals and passed directly to the DEA.

In those instances where all federal law enforcement entities cannot handle a situation exceeding all civilian abilities, the Attorney General of the United States so states in writing to the president.

The president then signs an Executive Order passing control of that domestic situation to the military for a fixed, defined period, by law, as the Commander-in-Chief. Once the situation is finished, control is ORDERED back to the Attorney General (scary, considering the last administration, huh?).

The National Guard works for the Governor of the respective state until federalized by the president for national emergencies (Title 32 of the US Code, vice Title 10 for Active Forces). The National Guard CAN actively support law enforcement entities within their states as ordered by their governors in both training and in operations.

Please don't send up inflammatory bullshit you may have thought up in your fertile imaginations.

A concerned soldier who has worked these issues at Pentagon (Joint Staff) Operations.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:23:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

You are mak'in a swingin steel target with a pipe stand?
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
glendale, AZ, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:25:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.175)

Been smelling too much Shoo Gooo today, BoLt oUt~
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:31:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.210)

LTC – the “Ballistic Hollow Point” has been approved for military use since 1990. It was found not to wound in such a grievous manner as to be outlawed by the conventions. Actually it wounds the same as the FMJ and is why it is not the round of choice when deer hunting. Thi sis why ‘Lito goes crazy when youngens ask about the Match Kings for hunting. :-)

On the front sight, another technique is called the line of white hold after blackening the front sight to make it stand out better. I use it for the 600 and I use the frame hold for 1000. Of course if my eyes get any worse I will be using the venerable “guess hold”

Well, will end this tonight as a short post. Hold hard fuys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:49:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.189)

This issue was layed to rest by Hays Parks a number of years ago. If you want to see the actual copies of the approval and supporting paperwork look in the "Death From Afar" Series.

Seems these rounds are "closed" and not considered HP's of Dum-Dum's, etc.

Personally, I've never understook why it's not OK to use hollow points, but it's OK to drop napalm...IMHO.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:49:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.48)

Hold hard GUYS!

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Dumbville , head up ***, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 03:50:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.189)

Looks like a fixture to catch some towed .50's to me.........

Two shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:05:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.181)

HIT!..... dang dude.. you got that one first try.... You and I must be plugged into the same cosmic channel...that or you're just plain smart :)

Anyhow... Jim and others... click on my name again for the next evolution of 'Betty' - yes - this thing's name is gonna be 'Betty'
No - it's not done...

Ken ;)
 

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Virginia, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

I agree with the drug ASSISTANCE statutes (which is why the Justice Department / FBI lied and said they needed military helicopters that would otherwise not have been provided, because they implied Koresh's place also had a drug lab). But some people think cops can pick up a phone and you get whatever military task force you need to conduct a massive expedition or campaign against militias or minority groups, or raids in your home city to whack terrorists.

Think about it, folks, You have a massive wave of brush fires in your state, and the Army provides soldiers to put out fires and C-130s to drop fire retardant. Those are military operations. Would you rather we didn't do them?

I was talking about folks who think you have active soldiers surrounding Ruby Ridge, or driving the helicopters and CEVs at Waco, or arresting folks in the inner city in drug raids. I'll throw the bullshit flag and call for 25 yards.
 

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:31:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Sounds like they threw flashbangs into the bus to me. Maybe I'm not reading it right. Maybe Pakrat can expand on it. Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:36:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

Ken - Why, that's the tripod and ground anchor system for your new 50BMG-TOWED!

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 04:42:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.199)

Dave Liwanag, I'm not sure what the US Army or their Reserve is doing, but the USMCR is looking very hard, at least on the staff side, at a "homeland defense" mission for the USMCR. What exactly that involves, I don't know. I do know that for a period, the platoon was training the urban mission pretty hard, now we're back to doing green ops, with a Bosnia/Kosovo urban training flavor at times. What I did recommend, was that if the police expected to do a raid that would turn into "The siege of firebase Gloria" it might be real wise, to call up the local Guard unit and start making some liason, in case the feces hits the air circulator. This is fully within the law(as I understand it) and most of the Guard guys I've worked with(admittedly not grunts, Blackhawk helo guys) were fairly squared away. I don't fly with idiots, and I was comfortable flying with these guys. Did some NOE stuff on insert that was pretty cool. Anyhow, you need F/A. Call the Guard, put 'em on stand-by, as a react force, 500-700m off site, in HUMV's. Can't speak for the Guard, but the USMCR would have guys lined up to volunteer for that duty. Not all Walter Mitty types, either. All you tinfoil hat types, don't get bent outta shape with the military oppressing the people. My Bn CO knows that the guys in the platoon would probably shoot his ass if he tried something un-Constitutional, and honestly, I don't have any fears of him doing so. The military generally still has the God, duty, country, Corps ethos instilled in it's members. It's mostly the Fed LE types I worry about.

Getting back to Kevin OTGWN's thing. I have found that F/A is no good for suppression unless you're talking belt fed, tripod mounted stuff(Bipod is OK for SAW with good gunner). That's if you actually want rounds to hit somewhere around the target. Me, I like hits. I use fast aimed semi-auto. I was putting bullets through a bunker firing aperature at 250m with an issued M16A2 from a concealed prone, no problem. F/A would have been a waste of time. Given an ACOG, I would have been headshooting the guys in the bunker. Yes, I'm damned good(and humble too), but it's not unreasonable to expect even moderately trained officers to make 200m shots on BG's with an ACOG equipped rifle. Police almost always have the BG's outnumbered, not all the officers are going to be under fire. Those that aren't have to shoot the BG's(or even suppress them with aimed fire) so that the officers under fire can be recovered. I see that as a better option to having somebody go F/A. Snipers would be my first choice. Not totally useless info. Maybe some police types can use this to justify more snipers(or DM's) Semper Fidelis...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 05:07:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

Okay folks... here are all the pics and the latest evolution of 'Betty'.

The plate is 3/4" x 25" x 25" steel... yes it's very heavy....I have a tradition to keep up ya know. The frame is black iron pipe and some galvanized water pipe where home depot didn't have the black iron.

The smaller top axle goes all the way thru the 1" outer axle. You transport this pig with a dolly cart. Very easy to move downrange then.

I will work on the grid template that is to be painted on it - and each time the paint needs to be refreshed.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 05:18:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

And just for the record, I take a size small, mostly crumpled, tinfoil insert for my boonie ;-) JUST JOKING!! It's really a size medium! HA! Ghillie tinfoil?! Maybe Gucci would market it for me.......
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 05:41:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.91)

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 05:49:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

OK Undude. I have a question about what you say about the super sling let me read you a direct quote from a Cabelas Catalog. "one-hand adjustment is a great advantage for shooters who use there SLINGS as a shooting brace. One tug lengthens or shortens, then locks at any position." Now this sling is designed to function the same way as some of the older military slings that acted as a brace to aid in accuracy. Now I may be wrong and this may not be a funtional sling like I said. Maybe I think sling means one thing and you think it means another. But with my experiance with this "SLING" not just a "CARRY STRAP". but hey I might be wrong, but if you were wrong and this is a sling, like I think it is did you just make a "FOOL" out of yourself. Please someone since I have no idea what a sling is or what it does could someone please explain it to me other than undude, because he seems to be better at childish name calling rather than explaining the error of my ways.
JC I understand that the Dragons Breath is expencive, but I thought that I might treat myself to a pack since I can get a pack down here for $13(which is still steep) vs. the $20 some odd that everyone else talks about. I know it might be a waist of money, but sometimes waisting money can be fun if it is something you are just playing with (not something like a scope. bad scopes are bad :( )
Ta Ta for now
Charlie

Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
Jonesboro, AR, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 06:06:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.191.252.6)

Does anyone remember or have the web site that was posted here about a month ago, put a user to the Israeli Sharpshooters Association or something to that effect? I need to link up to it to do some research. I have a person who claims he was an Israeli Army sinper working in the heart of the Bekka (sp?) Valley in 1984. I was under the impression the regular IA stayed out of the heart of the valley so I want to see if this character is a fake or not. Anyone have good info to add to or refute this claim?

Also, off topic, did anyone receive a letter from H&K, date 1 January 2001, in which a LEO could get a USP 40 Compact package for $549? I got one in the mail today from ASLET selling my name to them (that irritates me to some degree, but, another story). Looks good and I like H&K USP series pistols although I need another handgun like I need a hole in my head . . .

Info appreciated all! Thanks!

Morris
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 08:39:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.39.130.16)

Wife is thoroughly convinced yours truely has gone around the bend...

Drug my parachute bag and associated "war gear" down to my office and started putting together my pack. Something that she hasn't seen me do since I retired in '94. She's wondering if I'm running away or some such. Personally, I'm to old for that and if I was I'd be doing it with a gal half my age in a red sports car...not with an ALICE Medium on my back!

Piled some essentials with the pack and noted I reached for my Gore-Tex "stealth suit". This goes under your outer wear and as such is quieter than the military standard Gore-Tex. I've used it since '89 and had good luck with it. Like all Gore-tex you'll overheat if exerting yourself, but for laying still or stalking it's worked well.

I've been using it with one of the Russian "Spetznatz" jump suits or my IR/Computer pattern issue gear and wearing poly-pro insulated undies under it. It seems to keep me toasty. I recommend it highly.
Makes your counterparts think your an "iron man" when you come in wet and bedragled with a grin on your face...

Also, noticed that my essentials have added a few things for creature comfort that I didn't use to pack. We'll, at 50, and now a "grumpy old toad", I'm allowed. Frankly, my use goes more towards hunting/stalking now and that is probably how I'll build my pack.

Want to keep the pack and rifle load to under 50 lbs...

Anyone know where I can get a nubile buxom 5'2" Nordic type for a spotter...;-)

Range day Sunday...get some time behind the 6.5 X .284, again.

Semper Fi,

Wes
(Waiting for the M25)

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 10:39:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.50)

Two shoes
The group was located outside of............city west of Lakeworth? Dang, can't remember. Was working for the next largest town west of Azle at the time when the incident occured. We got an indepth bulletin on it. Appears a LAWFULL traffic stop occured, turd said he does not recognize police officers and it went south from there. Evidently got pretty ugly but thankfully no one was shot. This was back in '95. Been awhile.

Mike T
NO havent seen launcable flash bangs, could be interesting!

Bravo
Sir, it is with deepest respect that I say this. I know our goverment does quirky things, I still get hacked at what they did to us in the Storm. But I tend to think that you might be just a wee paranoid.
My dad-in-law is the same exact way.
If you are not breaking the law, then you will not see us standing at your door ready to slam and bam. Yes, I know it has happened, mistakes to occur, unfortunately. But for the most part our itell is right and we do happen to get it right a good majority of the time. Look at all the drugs that are seized and dirt bags who are taken off the street because..........TAA DAAA....THEY ARE DIRT BAGS!
Yes, I am leery of our guberment but I do not sweat it. If they want me they know where to get me but it won't be free ride. Git the drift?
I cannot and will not account for those officers who pooped in the chili but for the most part most of us are just working joes who have been called into the field and attempt to put in a days good work, so that the average mom, dad and little curtian climber can sleep somewhat safe at night. If I can go to work and take a drunk off the streets and keep them from killing you or some elses family then I have done my job and I can lay my head down on my pillow in the afternoon, sleep well and still be able to look at myself in the mirror the next day.
F/A (briefly) - time and time again, SRT/SWAT officers have used a full auto MP5 or M-4 and done the job that was needed without hosing down the neighborhood. What you do in training is what you will do in combat? Sounds famailiar? Don't it? All most all SRT officers have a large amount of training and experience and have shown that they are quite adept at using these tools. You don't hear about all the good take downs, even if the BG was shot? You only hear of the occasional bad take down where the news sensationalized it. There are thousands of take downs, hostage rescues, warrants served every year with maybe a .001 percent of a bad shot going down range. Gentleman, it is all in the training.

As the most astute members say : RANT MODE OFF!
I got a report to do, because........TAA DAA.........I will be sleeping good this afternoon!

My apologies for taking up so much space. I bid you all a fair adooo!

Pakrat
 
 
 

Pakrat <pafamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 11:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Man, I didn't think I'd get THAT response. Only when I looked at it after I posted did I see I forgot the smiley, and thought "What the heck, let him sweat a bit!" :-)

No offense meant or taken.

Getting back to our commie. Mandela? Communist, and I'm not even scared to say so. Though not so hard-core as one might have thought. And Mbeki really looked at the start to have some more savvy than he's displayed during his stay in office. Man, he's made so real booboos. But then, we have a saying in Afrikaans, which roughly translated goes as follows: "Even if an ape should wear a golden ring, it still is an ugly thing." For the persons under discussion I would replace "ugly" with "stupid".

Now there, now you have my sentiments. And also why I will not have anything to do with our current military. They might not be all like that, especially not the old guard, but they're being worked out and replaced with more "monkeys".
 
 

Getting back on topic though. Yesterday I did some work in the garden, and trimmed the palm trees. Those bastards with the spikes for leaves the first couple closest to the stem. And got punctured in quite a few places. The most noticably one under the thumb, which throbs like hell, and the other one the one I'm on about now.

In the palm, at the base of the trigger finger, right in the fold, dead center, into the muscle/nerve. If I were to go out shooting now pulling that trigger will be very difficult and painful. Unfortunately I'm not, but it still got me thinking.

What would a deployed sniper, out on a mission, do in such a case? Stupid/unlucky enough to severely damage the trigger finger. It is not out of commission, but nearly so. A shot presents itself and has to be taken, and there's no one else about to do it.

-Try and take the shot with that finger, and risk blowing it?
-Try and take the shot using the middle finger as the trigger finger?

Do you guys ever prepare for that? Do you practise sometimes to shoot with a different finger?

Was just wondering. When I was an officer in the Artillery, in planning, we were always told: "Plan for the worst and hope for the best."

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 11:58:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.129)

Pak
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Briefly, I promise, TX, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 12:03:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Mike T. - I kinda take it for granted people who do this can dress for the cold inclement weather. But I recall a lecture I got during a trip down south - and remembered you guys don't always live it (grow up in it)- and also some of the dumb ass stuff recruits can do - hell even some supposedly in the know people (I F**Ked it huge once and five of us almost didn't come back from the cold). I try to remember things like that, when I really want to tune out a lecture because Hey I Know THAT - What was it? Always the Student Sometimes the Teacher. The big infalible leader ploy works right up till it doesn't and then your troops never trust you again - especially when someone was suggestign the correct course of action a while back!

I alway like to layer so you can add or delete depending upon activity level and the surrounding weather.
SWEAT-->FREEZE-->DIE
I like a nice Polypro or light fleece layer on the bottom - the green acetate(SP?) shirt and pants from one version of the US ECWSystem - then a heavier Fleece or similar then the G-Tex. Like Wes said the Stealth suit is great to maintain exterior cam (plus your buddies think your the man all drenched etc. and still soldiering on) I like the Brit Gortex shells as they are a lot more lighten and plyiable than either the Canadian or US versions (plus the DPM has a higher LCF -look cool factor)

Anyway I got to go pop some caps
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 12:17:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Awesome Idea! I just saw the pix and thought well, kinda like Mista Bolt meybee you have been spending a little too much time with 'Lito!
Pretty obvious what the components are for if you have seen enough of the stuff. What are you using for the target body "E" or "F" types?
 
 
 

Charlie Higgins
Sir, I believe YOU need to peruse (That means READ) The In Review and Hot Tips and Cold Shots pages and possibly LEARN a bit about the suggestions given to you.
Mr. Mike Miller is the maker of probably the best tactical sling for sharpshooters in the world(PERIOD).
Plus he's played a cop both on and off tee-vee, had a cameo on the Wizard of Oz, played the part of a Califonia Blonde during a major Sniper Event, and is generally a pretty sharp guy.
 

GEEEZUS! (SORRY) DOESN'T ANYBODY READ THE FRIGGIN "OTHER" PAGES ON SNIPER COUNTRY????????????????
 
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 12:21:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.202)

Charlie Higgins,

Cut & paste this

http://www.tacticalintervention.com/quickcuffonlinemanual.html

and read a bit, Mike even put the stuff on the web for webcrawlers

click on the blue letters for information
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
big city, by-gawd, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 12:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.202)

I switched to wood 2"x4"s with those "Insta-Saw Horse" kits from Home Depot.
I found that chain or metal was a bad suport for the thing... it gets RAZOR SHARP, when hit with a 175. So have heavy gloves, cuz I got some really bad cuts when I brought the thing in from a shoot at West Point Academy.

Course, I never hit the chains, but the guys I let shoot my plates, tore them up something awful ;)

I think it was Sinister that suggested suspending the plates with old fire hose that the departments give away when they go "past date".

Betty??? Now, lookie... we have "Betty Towed", "Betty Towed 'Light" now "Target Betty"... is there something you need to express, that we need to understand? ;)

Does Major Kim know about the "Betty" thing you have ;)

How 'bout "Down Town Floozie Slut" ;)

Morris...
Go into the "Duty Roster Archives" (see blue thing at top of this page), click it, go back a bit and use the search function (Ctrl-F), and enter Israeli in the little box... you will find it (and lots of other cool stuff).

Charlie...
When did Cabella's become a valid reference source??? Ju gotta' be kiddin' Mang!

Marius...
I don't believe it... You P-O-S-T-E-D !!! Holly Poopie!
Dogs and cats, livin' together (in sin)!

PeteR...
NO, they don't!

'lito
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 13:39:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.69)

I will take that cutting caution under advisement. This is my first steel clanger target like that. As far as transporting, you can't carry it - or @ least I can't. Now, PeteR might be able to - uitilizing NinJa concentration, etc. Anyhow, it weighs about 150Lbs - but the intention was to dolly it up/down range.

The grid I want to paint on it will have inches and 100 yard mil marks (3.6") on it. That way, (ex:) say - at 300 yards - one mil in yer scope shud span 3 of those marks on the target. If yer studying the wind, you can see how much deflection you actually got.

Ya'all gimme a sanity check on this... after all grids are painted on on anyway...
 

thanks,

Ken :)
 

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:04:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

How about a removable wire grid overlay and just spray paint over it?

Like chicken wire or concrete reinforcing wire?

Drop it over, touch up, remove and by the time you're back to the FFP its dry.
 

justa thought....................
 

Ninja Concentration- HA!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:27:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.178)

HA!!!... You're dead meat!

You shoulda asked for a practality check... I think it looks real good (not like my clangin' pile of "firewood" ;)

150 pounds Jeez, Louise!! Think I could have a whack at it with my "50 Towed"?

On Scope Warrentees...
Got an e-mail from a lurker with a scope problem last week... he was the second owner, and got whacked with a whoppin' repair bill.
Between what he paid for it used, and the repair bill, he "Cudda had a Lupita".

Note this... one of the reasons that Lupita is so respected here, is that if there is a Lupita IN YOUR HAND, no mater how many guys have owned it, it is UNDER WARRENTEE... no jive, no questions, no NADA... PERIOD!!!!

The same applies to the old B&L 10x Tac...

Everything else that is used, cross your fingers, you may eat it (no Ketchup).

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:29:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.69)

This is not a sniping subject but a trivia question.
A friend aquired a belt of .30 cal ammo, the bullet tip was green with a silver band behind it. He was told it was used for peircing tanks. He loaded one in a O3A3 and held on tight as he new this must be something special to peirce a tank. The target was 100 yards, when he fired the shot there was a PTT,,,,,,,,tink as it went through the target. No recoil, and the muzzle of of a red rider. Is this training ammo? If so why a whole belt full?
Any info is greatly appreciated.
P.S. Head stamp is LC 42.

Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:30:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.22.166.168)

I yield from ConstructionCompany back to SniperCountry, sorry.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:35:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.116.36)

With regard to the problem of bullet fragments cutting through the hangers you might try any of the following; What ever material is used to hang the plate, configure it so the plate hangs at an angle (bottom further back than top). Fasten rebar to the plate and bend to achieve desired angle when hung. If chain is used, keep nuts, bolts, and washers handy for emergency repairs.

The angle you set on the plate will cause the fragments to be directed toward the ground and any of the fragments that do go up should miss the hangers. The rebar should hold up better than chain but depending on how it is attached (welded for example) may increase the space required for storage and transportation. I am not sure if welding will stand-up to the constant pounding of being shot, but that will probably depend on the quality of the weld. A range I worked at had steel for handgun, shotgun and rifle work. The rebar usually held up better than chain, shotgun falling plats would sometimes break a weld and the nuts, bolts, and washers need no explaination.

I also realize that angling the plate might effect the accurate ranging but could easily be checked through the use of a laser range finder or simply milling the width (real world targets don't always stand tall to allow you to range them).

I almost forgot, if your in farm country you might try and find some disgarded disker disks. Cost should be cheap (maybe even free) so you can build more hangers. Besides with the hole in the middle you can alway claim your shot went right through the middle if you don't hear that lovely ringing sound. You will punch holes in them but they're cheap!

Have to go, something is ringing...
 
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:45:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.2)

There are no "tank bustin' loads" for the 30-06... '06 armor piercing is good for about 3/8" of mild steel, or 1/4" of hard steel. They were used against lightly protected thingies like jeeps, aircraft "gas" tanks etc.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 15:47:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.69)

Weather in the mountains has warmed up and we are OUT of the walking boot and into normal footwear!!! going easy on the foot but we're mobile..Heading up to the bench today to chrono some more 22-250 loads out of the 700VS and finalize a zero on the Kimber 84..
 

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Hobbling around on a really sore foot but thankful to be finally mobile on day 65 in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 16:36:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.56)

I think most folks on this roster have used a sling or carrying strap on hunting rifles in the manner which you refer to..I've always refered to it as a "hasty sling"{not an origial term,don't know who first used it, or when I first heard it ]. This is a OK field technique for increasing stability but it is not to be confused with a TRUE shooting sling for precision rifle shooting.

Looping up and waiting...
 

outa here to the range!
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Trying not to get it in a sling in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 16:53:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.56)

With handgun training we often train on using our weak hand if the strong hand becomes disabled or cover dictates. Until recently I have never applied this practice to rifle shooting but here is what triggered it.

I was doing some mil-dot practice from unknown distances. After setting up my target I went back to a spot I had never used. What I discovered is that I was unable to see the target if I shouldered my rifle as I normally would (right handed shooter). After evaluating the situation I discovered that if I shouldered the gun like a left hander I could see the intended target. There was a tree blocking my view from the right side of where I was positioned and I couldn't move left far enough to see target with my regular hold.

Because I had never done this with a scoped rifle (but have practiced plenty with handguns and shotguns) it was really awkward! What made this more difficult for me is that I have a slight control problem (I can hear the laughter but it is not what you may be thinking). I am right eye dominant and cannot close my right eye while leaving my left eye open. This has never been a big problem shooting left handed with handguns (simply used right only, yes I can close my left eye, or simply used both eyes) or shotguns (I leaned my head over stock to pick up the bead and target with my right eye) in the past but made shooting a scoped rifle left handed seem impossible (my brain always wanted to use the picture from the right eye which was not behind the scope).

I probably could have fashioned a patch for the right eye, so the left eye would be the only picture the brain would have, but I just covered it with my right hand. After this arrangement was accomplished the bullets went down range and were on target!

Pardon the pun but, this opened my eyes as to what I needed to do if faced with having to shoot a scoped rifle left handed.

Answer is...switch hands, switch sides, switch eyes, and practice before you are forced into the situation!
 
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 17:13:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.2)

Though I am convinced that The UnDude is dead-on on slings for sniper-rifles, he and I disagree about the ideal sling for sporter-weight rifles. But I have a basis for my RESPECTFUL disagreement. You are as lost as that Mark Smith guy.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 17:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

And you're right. The UnDude sling is barely mentioned in the archives.

Have a nice day.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 18:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

PeteR: you mean there's OTHER pages on this site? WOW! Where are they? Do I need super ninja concentration or those wall walker shoes to find them? LOL. You're a hoot my friend! And a Varget Varget Varget to you too ;-)

Pakrat: by '95 I was long gone, MIGHT be folks I knew, but not me. Paranoid implies that it's an UNREASONABLE or IRRATIONAL fear. Neither of those adjectives apply though, due to the uncovered face of the treasons that has been advanced in our nation. I agree, you guys (cops) aren't going to bang away at me in the middle of the night on accident, that's not what I'm worried about. It's the PURPOSEFUL slam and bam. You said it yourself, "If you are not breaking the law", but I have every intention of doing so. Not violating local, state, or US law (at least not violating the constitutional ones that I'm obliged to obey), but international law. I'm a true first class enemy of foreign domination of our republic, and there's NO WAY I will bow. Odds are, especially since clitton and our republican senate passed "legislation" that makes all US citizens liable to the international courts, and gives the UN license to make arrests of US citizens on our soil (for deportion and trial at the Hague, not here in the states, and not under ANY protections of our Constitution), I will at some time be under the gun of someone who has a problem with my "breaking the law". Please understand, I'm not busting the chops of cops. It takes commitment to put up with the crap you do, especially for the wages they pay. I applaud that kind of tenacity and community minded selflessness. But I value PEACE OFFICERS over law enforcement in every way. The last check-and-balance is the fact that PEACE OFFICERS will not arrest people for violation of international law. When we have people who are more concerned with enforcement of laws than keeping the peace, be they international or local, we need no UN troops on the corners, we'll have local police for that, and they'll do exactly the same thing. All the best amigo, I hope we're fighting on the same side one day.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 19:08:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.231)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 19:34:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.20)

The Quick Cuff is an option, and not the only method of carry/use with one of Mikes slings. Makes me WONDER how well you READ the materials.

I was using one of the orginals to teach "The Matrix" flying kicks, and Dodging bullets to 'Lito, WELL until Mike warned me that it has a 4000 tensile limit.
 

Shaking his head,yet again this week, peteR walks slowly into the sunset.

TOO TIRED FOR RANT MODE
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 20:15:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.164)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 11, 2001 at 20:43:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.21)