Sniper Country Duty Roster

February 20, 1999 to February 25, 1999

Maybe somebody can help me out. I'm looking for a 10 rd mag for my M1A. I have several 20 round mags and will consider a swap one for one. The 20 rd mag is of real pain on the bench and unnecessary when packing it to the woodchuck field. HELP..... E-mail me if have a suggestion. THANKS
Oh ya, on the "Sniper Rifle" name. I'm not LE or Active Duty anymore but think that they have a bad rap. Just like semi-auto's. I had a PSS and people would ask about it and all I'd say is its just a fancy varmint rig. Its really no big deal to me. Seeing Im no sniper I didn't call it a sniper rifle. Its all in the opinion and that was mine.
Todd <>
Andover, NY, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 01:36:11 (ZULU) 
I dont shoot rapid fire as a rule with my Enfield but I have seen good shooters get off as many as 35 rounds per minute shooting at man sized targets at 200 yards. Misses dont count. This is all kind of silly because there should be no reason to shoot at the same target 35 times. In reality the time it takes to re-acquire a new target is used by the accomplished bolt gunner to cycle the bolt. The time lag in target acquisition is approximately the same for a semi- as well as the bolt rifle assuming cartridges of equal power, and this time lag is usually greater that the time it takes to cycle a bolt regardless of the method of execution.
As far as accuracy goes, 3 inch groups at 200 yards are within reason for a rifle in good condition when shooting good ammuntion.
The No 4 Enfield is also known to have favorable compensation harmonics, that is they tend to shoot the slower velocity rounds high and the higher velocity rounds low. At long range this ammounts to the rifle having a better vertical spread than would be expected.
Your point about Barn Doors was well made, on the other hand these rifles were not designed to be used on prarie dogs either.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 01:54:28 (ZULU) 
John Thomas: Canjar triggers are an excellent trigger, but I'm not sure if they make one for Savage rifles. Several months ago I posted a person who is specifically making triggers for Savage, but his name and telephone escape me. With the factory Savage trigger, even if you can get the trigger mechanism from a Daisy Red Ryder, you are that much more ahead of the game. Good Luck. Great shooters, but shitty triggers.

Pup: What type of glass are shooting through? At what distance? What angle? You sure don't make it easy do you?

Y2K: Ive got 5000 rounds of 308s, 10,000 rounds of .223, 5,000 rounds of 45ACP, 30 cases of Miller Lite, and 25 cases of Kraft Macaroni and Cheese dinners. I'm ready to party. Frankly, I think its hooey too!!

Mistah Gooch (Said with the greatest reverence and respect): All these professional snipers from the US and Canada. What will be given away as the booby prizes? (Just want to know what I'm going to be taking home.)

And finally Russ: Welcome back. You know sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't. I feel with kids a little discretion and compassion are the answer. Do't get me wrong. I'm not a bleeding heart, pinko, liberal, dingleberry. I'm all for the death penalty and getting rid of society of these dredge we have to feed and clothe on a daily basis. But 10 and 11 year olds. Hell, they haven't even found out what their peckers are supposed to really used for (hell even sometimes I forget.) But just to relay an incident thats going on in Ohio right now. There is this asshole named Wifred Berry and the press calls him Volunteer because he want to die for a murder he cmitted 10 years ago. (I think they are "dripping" him right now as I write.) Well, hell there are still liberal malcontents who don't want that to happen. They claim that it insults us as caring individuals. Hell I say let him die. He cold heartedly took a life and we are doing it to him now. Now tell me folks don't you just love stories with a happy ending...

Well, gotta go for now. Gotta make some 308s for Y2K and for Storm Mountain.

Al (Fly-Boy) Ostapowicz < (NOTE Change)>
Just stiiting Here and Thinking in the Soon to Be Spring State of , Ohi-er, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 01:57:47 (ZULU) 

Couple quick notes. First, I was told today that Mike Markovcy is no longer with Talon Manufacturing...don't know why. Second, and I find this one difficult to believe, but my FFL buddy told me that his supplier reports Tasco is discontinuing the "Super Sniper" scopes. Didn't say what the replacement will be, if anything.

On the question of "sniper rifles", guess this idiot country boy ain't real sure what the pansies are talking about. All of my guns are either hunting rifles, shotguns or pistols. Nothing more, nothing less. Some do have heavier barrels, but frankly never could figure out why.

Old Dog
Bruce <>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 02:04:03 (ZULU) 


There was no question towards you on spotters. Except maybe that you would probably agree that a spotting scope and spotter would be the way to go if you wanted to start shooting. These entry level snipers will go out and spend their life savings on a gun and glass but don't consider spotting scopes. Essential they are. Ask a bench rest shooter or a sniper zeroing in at the range, get a spotting scope and a friend to watch for you, critical if you really want to know where you are missing.

Oh, one more thing Bullet, glad to hear you are making your way out to the Black Hills, won't be a problem with Janet for us to shoot the shit for a bit, only you should let me know what day you think you'll be out so I make sure I can get a damned hair cut, don't want you tellin' people I'm some kind of hippie!!! See ya then!

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 02:19:58 (ZULU) 

Brian, try a bolt, they are much better as you don't have to wait for the gas to cycle the action....the 51 could be a match for the 15 depending on who the pilots were, put me in a mil jet and I would get hosed while I was still looking for the on switch.

Al, Russ etc. juvinile interesting topic. If you fry the kids it acts as near zero deterrance to others as they have no concept of mortality. If you take a reahab approach you are in effect taking an already severly disturbed individual and placing them into a situation of constant and total chaos, "the system", not good either. After a trip through the system, you end up with the atittude: "next time I will shoot the cop to so I don't get caught". Probation is 50/50, flip a coin and you will predict who will reoffend as accurately as any PHD. There is just no good answer (besides re-educating liberal puke parents that refuse to disipline their kids) but I tend to agree with Russ, by executing the offender you may not have any great deterrant effect but you will prevent that individual from hurting more people after they are released at 18. alert alert- sniper content...smoke the little bastards in the act and be done with it.

B Rogers, nice post, sometimes we forget that we are all of a commom culture.

has anyone run across 34mm rings yet?

check Midway for Canjar savage triggers.

.338 on a .505 case? anyone anyone?
Rich <>
far from home, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 02:23:57 (ZULU) 

Y2K - A fair amount of the y2k hipe is just that - for the part that is real. Just be on the lookout for an update for your pc, or whatever you're running - as a matter of fact, we can conduct a test -
We - here in the impact area - will set the server that carries the the snipercountry website to - say 31-Dec-1999 around 22:00. Then just let it go for several hours. If the duty roster stays on the air - then that's all that really matters...

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 03:39:20 (ZULU) 

Russell Taylor: It seems that you have been gone longer than I was! Welcome back???? I've missed you man! Be sure and note my new web address, IM is Gramps248. I'd be more than happy to break bread with you at any time.

Al O: You dirty dog, NICE ROAD SIGN!!!!!!! You sure that wasn't here in South Carolina????

Scott: GREAT site for the Sniper Country Wear! My MO will be in the mail ASAP, (now that I know what to pay)!!!!

Torsten: Cookies enroute, stand by for rangeing shot, keep the Jell-O and hot tub going.......

Bain: Do you have any answers on the composite barrels that my buddy Bruce asked about?

ALL: Does anyone have for sale or know where I can get a real issue cheek pad for my M1D? The one I got with the rifle lost a hole and tore so I really need a new one but I won't want other than real issue

Out here
Gramps <>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:05:44 (ZULU) 

All: I forgot, (I'm old ya know), did anyone other than me catch on the news the other night that "The CMP, a civilian group, is selling military rifles to anyone with out any checks being made"???? This was put out by a Senator from a state I don't remember and it was all the buzz for a couple of days but has disappeared with out any retraction or correction. Am I the only one that heard this?

Out here
Gramps <>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:19:17 (ZULU) 

One more item, (I'm old ya know)! Concerning my last message, I know that the CMP does a VERY good check before they sell any weapons, (I had to fill out and finger print until I was ready to drop)! So I'm not agreeing with the statement just passing on what was said. BTW, if you haven't been to your local Police to be finger printed for a weapon purchase just wait, IT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF FUN!!!!!! The questions they asked.......... I need a drink just remembering.....

Out here, (for real this time)
Gramps <>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:24:08 (ZULU) 

jUST SIMPLE QUESTIONS: How should a civilian prepare for something like a CARLOS II match? I realize that the overall objective is to WHITEFEATHER and his family. And how we all appreciate his contributions and the ethics he has instilled upon us followers. But we all appreciate the competition. Irepae match based on shooting abilities, stress, concentration, intel gathering, SITREPs, mobility, stealth, camo, physical abilities, etc or just trying to gain the knowledge of all the above and more? Any training suggestions? thanks....

Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:43:16 (ZULU) 

I'm also an old f**t; but I did hear the bit about the CMP selling evil "GUNS" without the proper checks. Give me a break please! The media people must all be descendants of snake-oil salesmen from the 1800's. We, the politically "un-correct" had better all start pulling together or we won't have a Second Amendment left to fight for. Right now we are trying to get a law passed in Missouri so we can carry concealed weapons. It is one heck of a battle. Unless you have actually talked to the "Anti's" you have no idea what we're up against. These people are so brain-washed, they think guns will kill them without someone squeezing the trigger. Please pardon my ramblings. It has been a rather "damp"(read too many cool ones) Friday night.
Doc <>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 06:04:04 (ZULU) 
Al O.
Binoculars are on their way to me. I'll let you know when I get them.
We've still got to get you "ghillied up" so get a suit of BDU's that fit good and we'll take it from there. I guess I could have told you this the other night when I called at supper time.

DUDE!!!! The name is "Darrell" not Dave. One more slip lier nhat and Al & I will come take your surf board away from you. ;-)

Someone was asking about 10 round mags for the M1A/M14 rifle.
Well, I've only found two makes of them. One sucks and the other one is a little $$$. Your right, they do come in handy while doing prone shooting. Also, in some states you can't hunt with the 20 round mags if you were to use your M1A/M14 for a deer rifle.
Check Springfield Armory out for the 10 round mags. It's the best all-around mag you can get "for now" on them.

Scott Powers loves M1A rifles. Maybe he could jump in and give a hand on them, since he just LOVES them sooooooo much. ;-)

D. West <>
Orland Park , IL., USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 06:46:16 (ZULU) 

Gramps: Scott Duff's site lists the following:

T4 Cheek Pad, World War II era K-Line for M1C or M1D. - $85

The url for the page it is listed on is

I think that's the correct critter. If not then let me know, there's another site I can check.

Gooch: I know that guy with the ghillied whip is lurking right around the corner, but didn't you say something a while back about a new model of rangefinder that was going to come out at SHOT? I'm curious as to what the specs are as I'm shopping for a rangefinder and I'd hate to buy one 2 days before a "twice the range and half the price and weight" model comes out!

Dave <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 07:37:43 (ZULU) 

Hey there everyone,
I was curious about breaking in a barel for the first time with the intention of using moly bullets. I once heard someone reference the concept that a gun had to be broken in for moly but I was not sure if they were referring to the initial break in of the barrel or just to the procedure for switching bullet types. So if anyone has heard of the appropriate procedure just let me know.

Thanks in advance
Seth <>
San Diego, CA, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 07:44:58 (ZULU) 

Laurie- Sorry to take so long. Been busy. 23-10 will get you on the road. The rest has to stay in house though. M852, just use the standard wind formula with C=10, results in full MOA. Range tracks with com. 168gn ammo. Trick is to shoot amd shoot again so that you know exactly how the stuff shoots with your weapon. Never shot a Galil, but if you are using the ELCAN scope that the Candians use on their M16's, your work is cut out for you.

Saw the stuff on the CMP. Article I read in Stars and Stripes said that about 20% of the weapons went out without proper background checks. Do not know where the stats came from though.

The issue on sniper rifles being inherently evil. Logic is not a major factor in the anti camp. I know anti's well, both in passing contact, as well as some close friends, courtesy of a few years in a liberal arts college. A lot of their thought process seems based more on gut reaction than empirical evidence. UNLESS you can show them the weapons, let them play with them, and see for their own selves the differences, quoting stats will not do a bit of good. Besides, one of my SOTIC instructors could outshoot me any day with his deer rifle. Ain't the gun, it's the nut behind the bolt.

The state of the sniper in the Army hit a new low. The sniper squad just got axed here. Snipers still around, just a different role. Yet at the same time I'm supposed train the snipers from 2 bn's. Confusing, no?

Spotting scopes. Looking for one. Partial to B&L, and Leupold. Seem to remember someone raving about Optolyth(?). What is great about them and how much dinero? How they compare to the ones listed above? Anyone have a scope near and dear to them that they love above all else? Just as long as it is variable power and has a 45 deg. eyepiece.

Enough for now, to much malt.

ED <>
CP Greivous, ROK - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 10:09:54 (ZULU) 

Earlier, Al made the observation that it would be incorrect to execute 10 or 11 year-olds because they were so young that they didn't even know what their gonads were really used for yet....

GOOD!!! Fry them before they breed!

Can you say...."DARWINISM"?!?! How about "NATURAL SELECTION"?!?!

If that was done, it would rid the gene pool of obviously defective DNA before it was passed on to future degenerates.

Their last words could be, "Mom...Dad...the family tree stops HERE!"


O.K., I am climbing down from the soapbox now...


Bruce Braxton <>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 10:59:17 (ZULU) 

To All: Awright, awright, mmaybe, just maybe there is a correct time to drip a 10 or eleven year, but those cases would have to be far and few between. Try to remember what it was like to be 10 or eleven years old and try to realize that watching those westerns on T.V. Most of use had no conception of what death is. Old proverb: :The cow forgot what is was like to be a calf!

Thats good however: Mom, Dad - the family tree stops here!

Now, for more enteraining topics: Can anyone out there tell me where I can obtain the adjustable stock which is like on the Arctic Warfare tactical rifle. Or is that stock style only available as a complete rifle?

Also about tactical/sniper rifles. Any rifle which you have in your gun cabinet, from a Rug (let me try this again!) R -U -G-E (Aw piss on it you know what I'm talking about) 10-22 to the most sophisticated HK-PSG1 can theoretically be used as a sniper rifle. This is a rhetorical question and really hasn't any answer. Sure makes for an interesting topic of discussion. And thats why we are here!

Al Ostapowicz <>
Sitting Here rubbing the Sleep from eyes in Snowy , Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 11:56:58 (ZULU) 


I used Varget with the Sierra 175Mk's for 1000 yd shooting. Rifle was a Winchester Heavy Varmint in 308. Velocity was about 2600fps. N140 would be good too. Unfortunately, there is no way other than working up a load to see what it takes to make the Sierra 175 Mk's work in your rifle. Varget is cheaper than N140. It is very consistant, and is not as affected by temperature extremes as other powders. My rifle had a 26" barrel with 1/12 twist. I also shoot these out of my M1A, using 41.0 Grains of IMR 4895, Velocity about 2500fps. M1A barrel is a 1/10, 22" in length.

Bill Bledsoe <>
Shelbyville, KY , USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 12:24:03 (ZULU) 

Duuudes, ( N' DAVES/DARRELS/fly-boys TOO!)

my quarter, and MY meter is running

on the CMP sneak attack, another atypical spineless senator/congressman tactic, make a hit n'run statement and slink back to the sewer. Guilty until proven innocent by the media and politico's.

Folks real world, when "Tachy-Brady 1" was passed, the next target WAS all magazine fed highpowered rifles and shotguns. I believe the statement was made by a very drunken Sarah B. in front of the wrong people, at the wrong party.
I made certain that everyone in my little intel loop at the time was aware but was just labeled the doomsayer dude, right? Now I still don't think so! Will ya check back on that through the ILA database for me Grasshopper, it might just be there?

Kids n'crime. Hey look at Great Britain and their approach during the Industrial Revolution. A bit Draconian maybe, but better than being a victim.

Age don't matter, look at D.C. and their progeny. Regular or Extra Cripp'sy?


BIG-BAD-DEEPFRY-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 14:38:27 (ZULU) 

Just checking in. Will send a longer note after reviewing some of the neat stuff MIKE
MIchael Columbus <>
Israel - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 16:04:59 (ZULU) 

Hey, you don't have to remove the reciever from the stock for cleaning. Get you a gun cleaning cradle, so you put the rifle in the cradle upside down. Use one of the little plastic bolt hold-open devices, or just slide an M14 stripper clip into the stripper-clip guide to hold the bolt open.
We turn the rifle upside down to keep the solvent out of the bedding and the gas system. You will need a gas system wrench to hold the gas system while removing the gas plug to clean out the insithe f the gas cylinder and remove the gas piston for cleaning. If you don't use the gas system wrench you will screw up the splines on the gas system and cause the gas system to be loose on the barrel. I put a little grease on the tip of the tail of the gas piston when I put it back in the clyinder. Clean the piston and the inside of the cylinder with some Hoppes #9 and wipe it all off or use some BreakFree ( CLP ). Both work well. It usually takes about 70 inch Lbs to get the gas plug tightened properly, and then put some red paint on the cylinder and plug to mark it so you can tell if it loosens up on ya. Also, ya won't need the torque wrench anymore if you paint the index marks like this.
I only do a complete disassembly if I get caught in a heavy rain. If I don't get in a soaking rain, then I take it down after the Highpower season is over for cleaning and inspection. I shoot about 1500 rounds per year through this rifle. Shooter Choice High Tech grease is great for the M14/M1A. Get a little 1/4 wide, 1/4 long artist paint brush to lube the parts of the reciever that are hard to reach. You can get these at WalMart in the crafts dept.
Shooters Choice Bore cleaner is better for cleaning than Hoppes, but you can't leave Shooters in the bore, I use BreakFree after I finish with the Shooters. And as with any rile, use a one piece cleaning rod.

You can Email me if you like.

Bill Bledsoe <>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 17:33:36 (ZULU) 

AL, the way the AW stock is set up, you really can't use it on anything else without some major work. There is an aluminium block that the reciever is bolted to that extends foreward to the bipod and back to the butt plate. The plastic part that you can see is just something to hold on to. To use this on another rifle you would need to make one of the internal rails to fit your rifle as it's glued to the AW and is intended as permanent. I think GSI had replacement plastic pannels.

If you can't find what you want, get some of that pink building insulation foam board and make a replica of what you want and glass a mold over the top. disolve the foam with lacquer thinner and you are ready to mold your own stock pannels. The aluminium frame takes all of the stress so you are really just building a "handle" for your rifle.

kids, yes I remember what it was like to be 10, taking a rifle without permission, shooting without permission, pointing a rifle at someone, were all things that would warrant a world class ass whupin'. The difference is that when we were 10 we were not going on killing sprees. there is no good answer as to why these kids don't get the message, but you have to take a long hard look at the parents.

what kind of bedding goo works best with wood stocks? good idea to pillar bed a wood stock?
Rich <>
a galaxie far far away, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 19:02:09 (ZULU) 


I got an M1 from the CMP a couple of years ago, and had to be fingerprinted by a LE Agency, and fill out all sorts of applications, but it was worth the 13 month wait to get a real nice M1. I recently applied for a smallbore match rifle for my son. As I have a concealed carry license, supposedly I won't need to wait for another background check. Same thing for people who are Sworn LE Officers and Military types with a current security clearance.
This info is available from the CMP website linked from SC. The CMP ships the guns via the US MAIL! The look on my letter carriers face was priceless! Mailorder M1's, Oh No!( Just Kiddin', she was pretty cool )
Check out the requirements for purchase, and then get a real piece of US Military History. Current price is about $400.

Best Regards

Bill Bledsoe <>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 20:53:55 (ZULU) 

On the CMP

The GAO audited the CMP recently and gave them what was actually a very good report. The major discrepency found was that, in the old DCM days, they sold about 20% of the rifles to persons who used one of the bypass methods instead of submitting fingerprints. This includes those with security clearances, law enforcement officers, (then) current members of the military and others who were obviously about to go on a killing spree with their military weapons

Remember this took place when there was direct congressional oversight of the DCM. Anyway, the director submitted a response which apparently (I haven't read it yet and so can't be definite) covered almost everything. Also, those who bought guns in this manner are being sent through NICS post facto to check for nuts (or lack thereof)

Thats the story. There is more at


Karl <>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 22:11:04 (ZULU) 

Fry the little suckers, preferably with 'Old Smokie' in Florida... and TELEVISE IT!!!!!
Larry <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 22:21:23 (ZULU) 
American Rifleman has an article on the Garand sniper variants in the latest issue. Are all you puppies NRA members?

Vari X II vs. Vari X III : I have a 6-18 Vari X II and it does just fine.

"sniper rifle" definition: Any rifle can be a "sniper" rifle. My .54 caliber flintlock acted as a "sniper" rifle a few years ago when I put a round ball between a deer's nostrils at 85 yards. No, that's not where I wanted the round to go. I was holding between his eyes.
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 23:25:36 (ZULU) 

Sounds great!! No need to get all dolled up for me though. I wont be able to get out this week I have court all week but will be out the following week. I will e.mail you when, looking forward to meeting you.
Pat <>
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 00:41:12 (ZULU) 
Retired/Just got a computer/not much fun,but just got a new M1A Supermatch and starting to break Her in. I have enjoyed reading DUTY ROSTER: Anyone have information on a Scope brand name LIGHTFORCE I've invested in a 12x42x56 with a ranging reticle. Hav'nt mounted it yet, but I already like it better than a spotting scope. Been over 20 years since I humped a 14, loved it then and trying to get re-acquanted. Any good TM's or FM's or any other ref material suggestions would be appreciated. Hump>,VA
1SG E. Humphreys <>
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 03:42:40 (ZULU) 

Accuracy International is now manufacturing their rifle stock to fit the Remington Short Actions. I had the opportunity to see this stock at the SHOT Show. I personally found this stock more comfortable than the UARS stocks. The stock is not cheap at around $700.00 with out the adjustable cheek piece. This accessory was in the area of an additional $150.00. Save up your money or buy a Mc Millan A-3 and have it properly bedded. Just be prepared to wait for stock delivery.

I had a conversation with the folks from Mc Millan. They have added a new inletting machine and expect to get the delivery time down to a more reasonable time frame. (Believe it when I see it.)

Bruce G. Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce G. Buell <>
Jax, FL, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 04:01:20 (ZULU) 


Wilfred Berry doesn't really want to die, he just doesn't want to be confined for the rest of his life. He said the fellows on the cellblock beat the hell out of him a few times and he can't take it. Poor baby. Oh Well, I guess he's already history now. Them other bad boys on the Cellblock are starting to worry about who's next. Good.

Bill Bledsoe <>
KY, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 04:33:17 (ZULU) 

Bruce, thanks for the info. Al was looking for the AW stock, I'm not big on thumbholes...Thats interesting they are making the stock for the remmy, is it just a composite stock in their profile or is it like the AW rifles with the aluminium chassis and removeable stock pannels?

I did go ahead and order the McMillan A3...last august AL O told me that if I ordered then that I would have a nice christmas presant...yep, right around christmas I got the stock, only four months wait. I seem to remember it was around $400 for adjustable cheek and butt.

JR, are you guys making the Dakota stocks now?
Rich <>
far from it, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 04:52:20 (ZULU) 

Dave in San Jose,

I've got info on Nikon's and Bushnell's new rangefinders on my webpage link below.
Sunny and warm Redlands, Ca., USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 07:20:29 (ZULU) 

Hello all!

I'm an ex-army guy w/M-16 experience out to 300 meters. I'm currently getting ready to buy a rifle to take to the range & eventually get good enough to hit targets at 1000 yds.I also intend to use this rifle to hunt deer for meat while incorporating some marksmanship(500 yards or so)skills in the hunt.I narrowed my choice down to a Remington 700 .308 cal but I am not that knowledgable about rifle technology. Therfore I don't know which edition(varmint, sendero, police special) is best suited for my needs. I will mostly be using the rifle for target shooting. I have a couple of questions to ask.

1.Is this choice of rifle & caliber reasonably suitable to meet most of my needs?

2. I'd also like to add that I've never been hunting before. How realistic am I being about thinking of hitting a deer at 500 yards & will I drop it if I do hit him?

3. For 1000 yd. target shooting, how huch power(magnification) should I be looking for in a scope? Is mil-dot recommended? Any other features? What MM?

4. While inspecting a rifle in the store, is there anything specifically I should be looking for?

5. At 1000 yds., how much damage would a .308 do to a deer? human?

Any info that can be provided will be helpful. Thanks!
James Carter <>
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 08:56:50 (ZULU) 

---My last comments on the "Death Penalty and Kids" issue:

Often, the question comes up of "Why are kids doing this stuff now? We didn't do it when we were kids!"

Any of you who have NOT read "On Killing" by LTC Dave Grossman are sorely missing out. This book covers not only "warfare killing", but the kind of carnage that we see on the street. He does a wonderful job of explaining the de-sensitizing of America's youth to the whole killing process.

And, if you want a real treat, go see one of his LIVE presentations. I have seen the 4-hour version and will be in his 8-hour class in Mid-March. I don't know if there are opportunities for civilians to see the presentation. Every one that I have heard of has been at some sort of an L.E. training conference.

One of the most startling facts that he has uncovered is that we are in a lot more trouble than the "Murder Stats" would show. Although the per-capita murder rate has remained relatively steady since the turn of the century, the Aggravated Assault rate has absolutely skyrocketed. Many more folks are TRYING to kill each other, but the docs keep saving the victims.

Again, buy the book, at the very least (available at Barnes & Noble and thru $15). See the show if you can.

Bruce Braxton <>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 09:57:48 (ZULU) 

Has anyone tested some of the available Cronographs ?

I have two of these little red Crony´s made in Canada ? work OK, but I am considering a new Oehler with a printer. Any advanches in technology ? Thanks

Torsten <>
Germany - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 13:20:39 (ZULU) 

James: You are liable to get lots of different answers on this, so I will get the ball rolling and give you mine.

1.Is this choice of rifle & caliber reasonably suitable to meet most of
my needs? Yes.

2. I'd also like to add that I've never been hunting before. How
realistic am I being about thinking of hitting a deer at 500 yards &
will I drop it if I do hit him?
When hunting, I would much prefer that you practice your fieldcraft skills and try to get as close as possible. Save those 500 yard shots for house cats. Personaly I feel that shooting a game animal at those kind of ranges with high-tech equipment violates the spirit of fair chase.

3. For 1000 yd. target shooting, how huch power(magnification) should I
be looking for in a scope? Is mil-dot recommended? Any other features?
What MM? For 1000 yard prone target shooting I have tried everthing from open sights to 24x and could not tell much difference in my scores. I prefer 8 to 12x power. For benchrest 1000 yard shooting something with a little more power is probably better. I like the old Unertls best for target shooting.

4. While inspecting a rifle in the store, is there anything specifically
I should be looking for? Yes, the side of the reciever should say Winchester :-) Buy the cheapest one you can find. you are going to be throwing the barrel and stock away.

5. At 1000 yds., how much damage would a .308 do to a deer? human?

At 1000 yards, a 308 bullet is traveling at 22 long rifle velocity. I have had bullets bounce of of sandbags at the top of the target pits and hit me in the head. I would not have wanted to be one of those sandbags though.

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 13:58:04 (ZULU) 

Does anyone know Accuracy International website address?
CALUMET, IL, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 14:20:23 (ZULU) 
Since I know this is not "hunting country" I will keep this short:

James, a 308 is a fine caliber for what you are wanting to do. But, you do not want to take a 1,000 yard shot at a deer with it. Chances are, if you hit it at that range, you will not be the one eating it... If you find you enjoy hunting deer, you will also find that the hunt is more enjoyable than the shot. Get close, then work on getting closer. 500 yards is no good, for deer, in my opinion. Work and you will get much closer. I agree with Steve's assessment of fair chase. With experience, you will too.

Old Dog
Bruce <>
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 15:10:15 (ZULU) 

James Barko,

Go to the Hot Links on the menu here at Sniper Country. Find the Sniper Store Link and then find AWC rifles. Sorry, but this is as close as I could get to an AWC link.

Bill Bledsoe <>
KY, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 15:12:53 (ZULU) 

Get the Oehler, anything else is justa Sav'age.............

Mr. Liles, Dude,
been meaning to ask, How many clicks do you put on the rear sight of a 1911 to connect at 800 yards?

Bruce Buell,
Are You coming to Carlos 2 at Storm Mountain???

If nobody else signs up I guess Al O., and I will get a clean sweep of all the neat goodies. Well, IF he makes it past the banjo players while traveling inbound.

Speaking of stress, a very nice, artickulate, piece by Rod Ryan in latest TS on stress/training. I especially like the photo of somebody(?) doing West Virginia push ups! "Whos Your Rangemaster?" ;-)


BIG-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 15:19:44 (ZULU) 

It sounds like your on the right track by doing your research before you spend your money. Please make sure you do this with the hunting aspect as well. My two cents: get a good .22 and start hunting rabbits and such. Taking any life is something you must be prepared for. If you have just killed a deer and have a hard time dealing with it you're going to feel awful! That said, try to find someone who is patient that you can learn from. You will make mistakes just as we all have but you will learn from them. Best of luck and keep practicing!

Savage triggers, I must have a good touch or just been lucky with mine. After a little work (and I do mean little) the trigger is crisp and clean. Maybe I'm just used to mil triggers so it just seems so good.

Got .45 and M1 loads to test...

Roy out
Roy Thomason <>
Co Spgs, CO, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 15:37:30 (ZULU) 

Anybody else see the teaser for the History Channel's so-called "Suicide Jobs" series? The series features occupations that the creators of the show refer to as "suicidal" type of vocations. Guess what one of these "suicidal" ways of life is? Military sniping!! I didn't know guys signed up to be a scout just to get whacked. Sounds like the shows' producers watched that Tom Berenger movie once too often! I think the series airs sometime during the week of 22 FEB.
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 16:09:26 (ZULU) 
Hey SteveNato,

"Save those 500 yard shots for housecats."??? Why? You might miss!! Besides, everybody needs a GOOD shot at a little pussy now and again, eh?
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 16:21:06 (ZULU) 

That Sniper show is on The History Channel Tuesday night, 23 FEB, at 2100 EST.
Doc <>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 16:34:19 (ZULU) 

any input from you girls on this one ??? A friend wants a new rifle, he´s getting rid of a Rem 700 VS and his defence budget allows for a SAKO TRG. Seems to be a straid forward rig with nothing to add.

Badger Ordnance ??
are these the guys that make the canted Picatinney mount and matching rings ? Do they have a Site ? Wonder if they would make a custom mount for a Mauser 86SR and a SAKO TRG ??? Both have a square looking receiver with a 17mm Prism on top. The original Mounts that are available are not canted and to high since they were inteded for Observatorys rather than usable Scopes.


Torsten <>
Germany - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 17:07:18 (ZULU) 

Are there any good LOG BOOK software programs available that run under windows? Thanks...
Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 18:34:51 (ZULU) 

Very glad to hear from you! Welcome.

I tried the handloading website you posted , but I'm at work and got a "no access allowed" message. I plan on reading it. I'll find it at home.


After 4 months of work.. work.. at the job; I finally got to my 5th match. In Ala., sponsored by Autauga, at Hardrock range: 500, 600, 700yds. Great experience. The match was on Sat. 2/20, but I got to drive over early on Fri. and try and get scope settings. Actually the "zero" time spent on Fri. was more educational. And I got to know yet another shooter or two that hertofore, I'd only shaken hands with. The next day , there were 50+ competitors; shifty wind and very much mirage. You couldn't see any bullet strike after the first relay due to the mirage.

The day before, I had established settings at all yardages and got some practice doping for wind. Sunlight was intermitent w/ mostly overcast. Fred Brooks, a shooter and new friend, was coaching and spotting. He was taking his time to help me. Fred, thank you.

The next day the sun was out, bright with mirage. Seeing bullet holes was moot. Trusted my settings and let 'em go. Everything was consistently about 0.5-1 moa low at all yardages. "Lights up, sights up" was pointed out to me by a couple of shooters. It is a concept I'm now more familiar with.

I didn't score all that well. So what. I LEARNED another thing (or two). And more important and valuable than anything was that priceless esprit de corp that exists in abundance at a gathering of shooters. Common ground; ease of friendly commmunication; and , to me, the raw magnificence of the event. It's a clean, healthy, and by God, spiritually-based endeavor that can be felt and tasted the first ( or the fifth) time it's tried.


To the 260 but didn't gete a chance to see what it'd do at those ranges. Instead, I shot Berger 185 w/ 44.0 gr N150. Wish I could have tested the 260 at the longer ranges.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga., USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 19:06:27 (ZULU) 

Torsten: If your friend is interested in a TRG he would be hard pressed to find a better rifle
in a factory package.

I was going to buy a TRG-S in .338 Lapua and gradually customize it over a period of time.I did not particularly care for the looks of the TRG itself.

I figured that I could customize a TRG-S cheaper than buying a TRG and get exactly what I wanted in the first place.

I had in mind a McMillan A2 or HS Pro Series stock,aftermarket bull heavy barrel by Dan Lilja,and an adjustable aftermarket trigger.The TRG-S itself was on sale for $675 Canadian funds.I figured the whole package would cost me around $2000 by the time it was complete.

I was ready to place my order for the TRG-S when I found a Weatherby Accumark (comes with HS stock and stainless steel fluted barrel) in .340 Weatherby.It was used very little and bought it for only $850 Canadian.I couldn't pass up the deal and settled for it instead.

You didn't mention if he was going for a magnum or not.The Sako L691 is about as strong and finely made as they come.Sako certainly doesn't need my endorsement,that's for sure.

I would certainly recommend the Sako if that's what your friend wants.If he gets it,fill me in on how it works.I'd love to hear about it.

Jeff Babineau <>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 19:29:15 (ZULU) 

Trying to source some 185 gr. D-46 Lapua bullets, 30 cal. Any info you have on who carries these would be much appreciated.


Old Dog
Bruce <>
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 21:10:30 (ZULU) 

Correction on my e-mail address. I had asked about a good ballistics program.
Jeff <>
McKinney , TX, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 23:45:05 (ZULU) 
James Barko, Bill Bledsoe,

AWC site is Check out Fast Action Handle. Just got mine back... superb piece of equipment.
Bill 971 <>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 01:04:01 (ZULU) 

James; Having hunted deer many years with everything from bow to long range rifle I must admit that the longest shot I've ever taken was 150 yards. This is in plains country too. I would suggest a Sendero in .300 win mag or a 25-06 if you want to shoot game that far. I passed up a 400 yard shot at a trophy buck 2 years ago cause I was hunting with a .243 and wasn't sure it would deck him. He was too nice to risk a bad shot. I went back in the afternoon and stalked him to 100 yards and he is on my wall. The best of the best recommend 300 yards for game animals. Just an old man's opinion but it's yours for free.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 01:53:38 (ZULU) 
I am interested in a good ballistic program. I have ON TARGETS 2.0 & 3.0 and Lock Stock and Barrels ballistic programs. All of them give different readings (there close) with the exact same load data loaded into them. They all keep up with each other until around 600 yards and then their calculations go south and inconsistant of each other. I find my rifle works well with them out to that range, but after that I do a lot of walking and recording. My findings are nothing close to what the programs offers. Also their wind and up/down hill calculation are no where near what my findings are. Any help on a good program would be appreicated.
Jeff <>
McKinney, TX, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 02:18:18 (ZULU) 
Hi Steve,
I have read accounts of people that have shot that many rounds, but I donít think I believe it. You saw this with your own two eyes? More than one person do it? This is not a challenge, Iím just voicing my skepticism. Was the rifle fired from a rest, or from the prone?. Here is why Iím skeptical. They would have to start with 10 in the mag, assuming the mag will function with 10, and reload with FIVE clips, all in under a minute. Clips are fast, but I donít think they are quite that fast. I know they taught the Brits to keep the thumb and forefinger on the bolt handle, and squeeze (I donít think this is the right word) with the middle, but just being able to reload five times with a *^%$## clip in a minute makes me think that itís a tall tale. I have farted around with enough bolt guns on high power ranges to know what a goat rope clips can be. I have also seen Carl Bernosky shoot his M-70 in rapid fire, so I know how fast bolt guns can be. I would like to see the 35rnds @ 200yds with a clunker myself.
I shot a lot of Infantry Trophy and the Combat type matches when I was in the Service. I know how fast a semi can shoot accurately. I also own, and have shot Enfields, I know their limitations.

Your point about not shooting all your shots at the same target is true. Somewhere in my mind I remember reading that the Navy SEALS conducted a test on this same thing, and concluded semi and a bolt engagement times being equal. I donít think I could agree with the conclusion about the lag time. I would have to see the methodology the Navy used for the test. If all the targets are hidden, and you really have to search for them, then the difference would be nullified. If it was a shooting gallery environment, then it would be different story.

Iíve never seen an Enfield (battle rifle) that would shoot into 3 inches at 200yds. 6 inches is more my experience. C. Shore talks about Enfields shooting into 1.5 inches at 100Yds in his book, but I would like to see that as well.

Rich: The whole waiting for the gas gun to cycle thing has been going back and forth since the late 1930s

Portland, ME, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 02:31:48 (ZULU) 

About stocks for sniper rifles.I noticed no one mentions the stocked sold and designed by Billy Martin of L.O.D.I have ones of these stocks on my Rem. PSS and i like it.It is well made and it works good.I have seen some Mcmillan stocks and some of the adjustable cheek pieces on there stocks do not have the raised area for the cheek piece.When you tighted up the adjusting screw for the cheek piece and after several firing the cheek piece slides back to the bottom.On the L.O.D stock when you adjust the cheek piece it stays in place until you move it.Also the way the sling swivels are mounted on the stock you can put them on the right or left and you carry the rifle flat against your body and it maked it easy to carry.If you want to know more about the stock or how much they cost look up L.O.D.s web site at WWW.LODTRAINING.COM
C.C., TEXAS, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 03:08:37 (ZULU) 
RE: Exterior Ballistics Program

I am currently using the Sierra "Infinity" software. You can get it with the Loading Manual incorporated, but I found that unnecessary.

The best thing about it is that you can run ballistic comparisons at different ranges, under different conditions, for several bullets at a time.

I.e., if you want to compare the Berger 73 grain LTB with a 69 SMK and a Hornady 75 A-max, it will print a chart with one bullet path in blue, one in red, and one in green. Most excellent for comparisons.

You can also change the environmental factors, such has humidity and temperature, to compare their effects.

Runs about $35 US.

Bruce Braxton <>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 03:10:18 (ZULU) 

Brian: Enfields
Yes I have seen it done with my own eyes, also I can do it with my own rifle (dry fire only) and I believe that you can too! I saw it done by a Royal marine, and in truth his rifle and stripper clips have about as much in common with your average rifle as your average single action revolver has in common with a tricked out fast draw rig.
I also think that this feat can be done by changing magazines rather than charging with stripper clips. You can get 11 rounds in most Enfield magazines (some may hold 12. Add 1 in the chamber and that adds up to 13 rounds to start. Try dry firing 13 rounds with your enfield and then remove and replace the magazine and fire 11 more and repeat until a minute is expired and tell me how many how many make believe rounds you got off in 1 minute. My 11 round strings run around 10 seconds and magazine changes around 3.5 seconds with no practice.
You poor soul, having never seen a Enfield that would group into 3 inches at 200 yards. I would not do this for anyone, but I will do it for you. Go to this website:
I was testing some 8mm military ball ammo a couple of weeks ago and I brought along my Enfield and shot some ball ammo just to see which shot better, the 98K mauser or the #4 Enfield. The Mauser is very accurate with handloads but to date I have not found any surplus ammo for it which will group up to the capabilities of the rifle.
To see my test results go here:


Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 06:12:55 (ZULU) 


I am new here, so don't slam me too hard if this has been covered. I have read quite a few archives and see that no one really talks about the HK-91's or SR-9's. I also have a PSS 308 that I am very happy with, so I am not partial to semi's. Is it the cost of the HK's or the flying brass? I mostly varmint and paper shoot so revealing my location is not a health risk.

Another question, what is the break-in procedure for the SR-9 308 having the polygonal barrel? Is it the same as the PSS? Can I expect 1/2-3/4 moa from this rifle using the Federal 168gr Gold Medal?

Thanks in advance, this is a great forum with great advice.


Jake <>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 08:09:23 (ZULU) 

To Al: Thank you for the welcome "home." I understand what you're saying about "mercy" for young ones. On the other hand, I don't think it's fair (and nothing ever is) to say "We'll execute 13-year-olds, but give 12-year-olds life in prison." And I know you were making a statement for the sake of contrast, but I know you don't SERIOUSLY equate "knowing how to use peckers" with knowing that when you take a rifle to school and waste your classmate that you didn't know what you were doing because you were only 10 years old. I started using firearms around eight years of age. I knew what "life" and "death" was even before that time. I respect your concern, but I feel that until we hold "people" accountable for crimes, it will continue to be too easy to blame "sniper rifles" and what have you. I don't differentiate between "kids" and "kid killers." Zero tolerance. If you are big enough to pick up a gun, load it, point it, and fire on noncombatants, you're old enough to be fried. And yes, lest someone ask, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Life is about consequences, and that means someone has to be in the position of holding others accountable. We should ALL step forward to do what needs doing. I'm not talking about killing kids, I'm talking about executing killers -- of any age. Period. And I know what you mean about Mr. and Mrs. Wimp staging public outcries against the executions of those who took lives. Sick. Thanks for your comments, Al. As for the death penalty -- one of my troops, when I was a company commander, was a prison guard when he wasn't soldiering. I asked him what HE thought about the death penalty in dealing with murderers. He gave an answer I've never forgotten. "I don't believe it does a thing to deter a gangbanger from killing someone. There's too much incentive in today's world (i.e., "pay offs" in many forms) to keep someone from doing bad things to good people... they feel the risk is worth it... but what it DOES do, is it keeps them from getting out and doing it again to someone else." Works for me. Until we change the mindset of this country, people will continue blaming rifles and handguns instead of criminals when evil is done.

Savage triggers: If you don't want to tune it, Canjar makes one, as has been stated, and there's a "Sharp Shooter" trigger also available. Both are sold by Midway. I'd recommend the latter.

To Ed: I've got your new AIM ID noted and entered at work and at home. I don't know about "real issue," but you might try Creedmoor Sports for your cheek pad.

Creedmoor Sports
P.O. Box 1040
Oceanside, CA 92051
1-800 -444-7697
FAX (619) 757-5558

To 1SG Humphreys: Hello, Top. For manuals, though the prices are a bit higher than I personally prefer, you can get most of what you want from U.S. Cavalry -- I'm sure you can get your hands on one of their catalogs. Their website is at . Do a search on their site, like I did, for "manual." Also, check . It might be something you'd be interested in.

To James Carter, Question #5: Part A. Not enough. Part B. Enough.

To Bruce: "On Killing" is one of my favorite books on the subject of men in combative situations. I stated MONTHS ago on the Duty Roster that it should be required reading for everyone with our "interests." I'll bet there isn't even a handful of people on here who have read it. If you would E-mail me with a schedule of his speaking engagements, I'd be VERY grateful. Thank you.

To Doc: Thanks for the "heads up" on the television show. I'll set my VCR. Thank you. Seriously.

To Brian: "I've never seen an Enfield (battle rifle) that would shoot into 3 inches at 200yds. 6 inches is more my experience." Um, mine gets 1 MOA at 100 yards from a COLD barrel. It's in a sporter configuration now, but it shot the same way when it was in a wood stock. No gunsmithing involved, either. True, 1 MOA at 100 doesn't necessarily equate to 1 MOA at 200 yards, but I'm "pretty sure" it'd do better than "six inches" at 200. In all fairness, though, my gunsmith, who has seen my targets, has told me that he's never seen an Enfield do that well. Go figure. Anyway, this is with Hornady 174-grainers and 41 grains of N-140.

To Torsten: With YOUR money?? Get the Oehler. ("Ay-ler" for anyone who cares to pronounce things the right way.)


Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 08:47:43 (ZULU) 

So a TRG 21 it will be, in .308. I thought this would give him a better start that getting a Rem 700 and throwing away half of it and buying aftermarket stuff for it. We´ll try to get some of those Badger Ordnance canted mounts for it and to replace my "el cheapo" Mauser 86SR Mount.

Russ, lets compare funds, the one that has more money pay´s the others overdraft and R&D and Prototype expenses for some Patents.
I´m just a little Oberfeldwebel in the Reserves, your the El Capitan.

Torsten <>
poor as a Churchmouse, in, Germany - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 09:49:57 (ZULU) 

Just for the record and possibly anyone else so inclined. I have a .223 VSSF Rem. With a factory 26" barrel that has served to shoot around .5 to .75 with full resized and factory ammo. I sometimes would beat that if I would seat out a bit more than my AR-15 clips would allow but anyway it was heavy to handle in a (tactical coyote) situation. (you see coyotes can count coup) I decided to cut off 6" and was sweating the flutes. it looks a bit funny at first but the first group out of the box was .21". There is something about a 20" barrel in this caliber! My Bushmaster AR 20" stock will shoot .5 to 5/8 also.
Or is that my imagination. Anyway it has become quite handy now!Tackies take note. By the way In case your interested I did it with a "chop saw" and counter sunk the crown with a cone shaped dremmel tool.
Nothing like precision work. We have crowning tools but we wanted to see how much difference there really was. Now we're afraid to proceed to the special tools for fear of ruining it. Speed about 3100fps. 55 grain V-max with Varget load on the can. Get back Wiley you perp!

B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 13:57:00 (ZULU) 

As far as using a ballistics program to set your dials, your doing the right thing by shooting and walking and recording. They will give you a ball park figure and save you some ammo to get you on target, but from there its all apples and oranges, because all guns are different. You have to burn powder to learn your craft, there are no easy ways to do it.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 14:20:49 (ZULU) 
Bill R.,

Sounds like you have found the "special" tools for the .223.

Don't spread it around too much.
Bill Wylde <>
SE, IL, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 15:30:06 (ZULU) 

Not even if they pull out my fingernails! Bill
B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 17:41:49 (ZULU) 

I need info and recomendations for glass to mount on a TRG-41 in .338 Lapua magnum. Ama considering US Optics stuff but do not know anybody who has ever had one. They claim great stuff but...

Also need sources for ammo and reloading stuff for the .338 Lapua mag.

mark quest <curedic@>
denver, co, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 18:45:35 (ZULU) 

Ilike this site, i really do..

I´m a 21 year old member of the Swedish National guards. I´m going to seek for UN-Duty in Bosnia, but i dont think i going to get it..

I also wounders if anyone can give me some good adresses to military chat sites, discussions and forum sites.

Are there anyone who wants to exange e-mail with me?
My interest are Shooting, exersices with my plutoon, be with friends, partying, meet girls.

I´m soon going to get license for hunting and i also aplied fore a permit fore handguns..

Because í am a member of Swedish National Guards i have acces to a assult rifle H&K G3 (AK4) there fore i want some good tips fore legal equipment: Large magasine, scoops and stuff like that..

Every answer will be gladly recived..

Best regards from Mathias
Mathias Söderbaum <>
Gothenburg, Sweden - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 18:46:37 (ZULU) 

Ilike this site, i really do..

I´m a 21 year old member of the Swedish National guards. I´m going to seek for UN-Duty in Bosnia, but i dont think i going to get it..

I also wounders if anyone can give me some good adresses to military chat sites, discussions and forum sites.

Are there anyone who wants to exange e-mail with me?
My interest are Shooting, exersices with my plutoon, be with friends, partying, meet girls.

I´m soon going to get license for hunting and i also aplied fore a permit fore handguns..

Because í am a member of Swedish National Guards i have acces to a assult rifle H&K G3 (AK4) there fore i want some good tips fore legal equipment: Large magasine, scoops and stuff like that..

Every answer will be gladly recived..

Best regards from Mathias
Mathias Söderbaum <>
Gothenburg, Sweden - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 18:47:24 (ZULU) 

To the guy that asked about the Hathcock match. Please Contact Rod Ryan or Kent Gooch at Storm Mountain Training Center for the proper answer. They are running the match and can give you the details you need. If it goes like last years event, the emphasis will be on the complete gamut of the snipers skill. Fieldcraft, shooting skill, observation and so on. It was a pretty well rounded event. If you are not up to the physical demands you can still compete. Last year we had a few guys walk when they should have run but in the end, it was all about helping Carlos. That was the key. You can still have a good time competing even if you are not a "pro". Ask Fred fisher. He came with a sharps rifle, took his time and had a blast. The competition was pretty stiff though. No one wants to lose so if you plan on going, practice a LOT.

Scott <>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 19:05:32 (ZULU) 


POPLAR, MTR, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 19:44:04 (ZULU) 

To Torsten: "I´m just a little Oberfeldwebel in the Reserves, your the El Capitan." Um, nope. Effective 29 Sep 98, it's "Major Taylor." (Three more years and I can retire as a "PFC.") Oh, and I got picked up for the new organization at work... and WITH a promotion. Still, even though I'm making a little more now, I have to watch where I spend my pennies. "I'm jest a po' gov'ment worker, ya see." So if pennies are your concern too, my friend, I'd recommend the Chrony Master Beta model which has the remote display. That's what I use, and I'm happy with it. Very affordable.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 20:06:59 (ZULU) 
Mathias; There is a saying "Be carefull what you wish for you might get it. Sweden must be better than Bosnia this time of year. Soldiers do what they do I know and so be it. It is one thing to defend one's home land and one's freedom.....
B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 20:47:53 (ZULU) 
Russ: Congrats on being Major Russ, not just a major grouch! :) (Uh-oh, is that the WoG I can just barely see on the horizon?) But seriously, good work Major, carry on!
Thanks for the recommendation on the chrono, I have a Chrony Beta due (with a pile of other Mastercard-mangling goodies) from Brownells any day now, looks like I should go for the Master upgrade. What about the printer, should I get it or just use the old Mk 1 Ballpoint? Anyone?

We had our winter drill the other weekend, in a lovely remote park. Thick, green grass everywhere, really nice, would have made for great stalking exercise, especially since the ground was COVERED with THOUSANDS and thousands of small, black hopping spiders. Anywhere you looked dozens of the little critters were hopping around. This was a sadistic instructor's dream come true, guaranteed to weed out the arachnophobes... They didn't bother us much, but then were weren't belly-crawling through this spider metropolis.

I teamed with a dog and his handler for an area search, first time working with a dog that could track that way. The dog goes running around the area you want to search, no scent article needed, and if it smells a person freshly in the area it seeks them out. They do it well.

The area we were assigned included searching down steep hillsides to a given elevation. This was a reminder that the GPS is not the greatest tool for determining elevation. My Avocet watch does that much better (it's cheaper and lighter and faster and more accurate and the batteries last longer and, well, you get the idea.)

Dave <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 20:54:22 (ZULU) 

Russ: Uh, MAJOR Taylor, sir! Thanks for the info on the cheek pad, I'll check it out. E-mail your IM so that I can log it in. BTW, always remember that a good SSG out ranks a Major any day, (& yes Torsten could buy us both the $10,00 50 cal with the change he carries in his pockets)!

Thanks to the other gentelman that gave me the information on the M1D cheek pad, sorry I forgot who it was, (I'm old ya know)!

Depity: Where have you been lately?

To the young man wishing to go to Bosnia, Think long and hard about what you wish for! The elephant is not as pretty to look at as it would sem to be! When I was a lot younger and dumber, (no, not WWI Torsten), I too wished to go to war, I got my wish and stayed for two tours, IT WAS NOT A VACATION AND UNLIKE WHEN WE PLAYED WAR AS CHILDREN, WHEN THE SMOKE CLEARS YOUR FRIENDS DO NOT GET UP AND GO HOME TO MOMMA FOR SUPPER. I'm not trying to lecture here just add some thoughts from an old guy.

Gooch: You ever know a Gunny Rayfield? He thinks he knows of you from Thirty Duce or the Point, anything????

Out here

Gramps <>
USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:04:26 (ZULU) 

Nice rifle, and nice group. I wish mine did as well.
Steve, your comment was about two "experts" one using a Enfield, and the other a semi. It sounds like a stunt, loading 12 + 1 and then using polished stripper clips, or swapping out mags. Your info on the lag time in acquiring targets had a lot of truth to it but I got to say that I almost pissed my self laughing when you said you can shoot 35 + dry firing. Well how do you know that your 35+ shots hit the 200Yd target?
As far as the magazine change in 3.5 sec, is that with the mags sitting on the bench next to you, or pulling it out of a bandoleer or pouch. No doubt there are some situations where you have the ammo loaded up sitting right there, but most of the time you will have to dig it out of the pouches that it is carried in. And as far as I know, Enfields were issued with only one mag and loaded with clips. When you do that at 5 rounds a pop, it a lot slower than 30rnds at a pop with a modern military type rifle.
I'm not trying flame you, the Enfield is fast, mostly by virtue of its 10 rnd mag, but you have to be joking about it being anywhere as fast as a semi. The speed difference will be deadly apparent at close ranges. As in you will be killed as you are F*^$%(^ with a bolt. Imagine having to dick around with a bolt when 5 guys are blasting at you from 30yards with full auto AKs. You would be better of throwing grenades.
Any rifle (M-40A1 to a M-16 to a Win 94 to a blunderbus) is deadly, and if used within its limitations will help bring you home. The problem with the Enfield is that it has more limitations than a modern assault rifle. Yeah the 303 is more powerful with longer range, but does it make a difference? Ever try and shoot at fleeting, camo, targets at 500yds with irons? Any one who has shot at the Fig 11 type target at that range will tell you how tough it is. Their first reaction is where the hell are the targets? Ö.."Are the targets up?"Ö. "Where the hell are they." This is in front of a huge number board I remind you.

Russell: Well you have an exceptional rifle there. I agree with your gunsmith, and I think you should try it with ball ammo at a longer range. Oh Radway Green green spot doesn't count. Try shooting it with some crap ammo loaded with cordite. That is more like what most Tommies carried.

Portland, ME, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:23:47 (ZULU) 

The AI stocks for the Remington 700 are just like the ones on the AW, metal chassis and all.

Currently I am being scheduled for a class and long trip the same time as the Storm Mountain Affair, AKA: Hathcock Charity Match. It would have been nice to get up there and see some of the people who use this site.

Bruce G. Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce Buell <>
Jax., FL, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:32:46 (ZULU) 

Have not posted in days, barely time to read, but today I have to.

Gramps, your post brought the hair on the back of my neck to attention. I have never experienced the misfortune of war in a far away place, but feel that 18 years as a Peace Keeper in a violent city in Calif. has changed me forever. The young man wanting to go to Bosnia, death is not pretty and seeing it is not good for the soul. I have seen to many people, I have had friends say bye for the last time and heard Amassing Grace on the Bag Pipes more than I wish. Bottom line is it sucks to be with and around death, stay a virgin to it as long as possible. Mothers without sons to bug are mothers without a life.

Well enough bad stuff. Looks like I get to go to the Hathcock Shoot. Yeah. Only problem is Fred wants to show me up with his Ruger and if that happens I will never hear the end of it.

The Undude, Mike
Calif, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:40:23 (ZULU) 

Lee-Enfield bolt guns: speed and accuracy

Recently took part in a speed event. My licence only allows bolt-action rifles or civilian semis (ie less than 7 rounds) so I took my Lee Enfield No 5 Jungle Carbine (a real one, Fazakerly, 1945). The other shooters were using AR15s, L1A1s and a couple of Velmets.

All events involved restricted times. The one I was worried about involved starting in the standing position with 5 in the magazine. On the command, fire 5, kneel, load 5, fire 5, stand, load 5, fire 5. Time allowed: 45 seconds. I finished with a good three seconds spare and, on inspection of the target, found all 15 shots counted. Oh, by the way, I was using the battle sights.

I am comfortable firing a No 4 out to 500 yards. At 900, it starts to be hard work. What optics am I using. Well, I am short-sighted, so I wear glasses. The only scope I want on a Lee Enfield is the No 32 on a No 4 (T), preferably matched to the gun. But that will have to wait until I pay off the mortgage.

11 rounds in a Lee Enfield mag? Good on you. Just don't complain when you have a mis-feed. 35 rounds in 1 minute? Crikey, I would not want to be anywhere forward of that shooter. Group sizes? What can you do with issue iron sights? (any range)

The correct number of firearms any one person should own is: more.
Sam <>
Wellington, New Zealand - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:46:11 (ZULU) 

Lee-Enfield bolt guns: speed and accuracy

Recently took part in a speed event. My licence only allows bolt-action rifles or civilian semis (ie less than 7 rounds) so I took my Lee Enfield No 5 Jungle Carbine (a real one, Fazakerly, 1945). The other shooters were using AR15s, L1A1s and a couple of Velmets.

All events involved restricted times. The one I was worried about involved starting in the standing position with 5 in the magazine. On the command, fire 5, kneel, load 5, fire 5, stand, load 5, fire 5. Time allowed: 45 seconds. I finished with a good three seconds spare and, on inspection of the target, found all 15 shots counted. Oh, by the way, I was using the battle sights.

I am comfortable firing a No 4 out to 500 yards. At 900, it starts to be hard work. What optics am I using. Well, I am short-sighted, so I wear glasses. The only scope I want on a Lee Enfield is the No 32 on a No 4 (T), preferably matched to the gun. But that will have to wait until I pay off the mortgage.

11 rounds in a Lee Enfield mag? Good on you. Just don't complain when you have a mis-feed. 35 rounds in 1 minute? Crikey, I would not want to be anywhere forward of that shooter. Group sizes? What can you do with issue iron sights? (any range)

The correct number of firearms any one person should own is: more.
Sam <>
Wellington, New Zealand - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 01:15:30 (ZULU) 

Wind Formula. Fed 175gr. Match ammo.

In the U.S. Army manual TC 23-14 Page 3-15, it states;

" The constant for the M118 special ball round is 20. This constant may not remain correct if other ammunition is used. "

If the Federal 175gr. match ammo is used, can someone tell me what the constant # would be for this round in the wind formula?
What would be the constant # be if the Fed. 168gr. match round?

Considering that the Fed. ammo was being shot from the same sniper weapon. (M-24 SWS)

D. West
USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 03:06:27 (ZULU) 

This whole thread started when someone asked how fast can one fire a bolt action. I said 35 per minute because I saw it done. I did the dry fire excercise just to refresh my memory of the event and to reassure myself that it can be done. 40 + rounds dry fire was not a problem. That does not mean that I would prefer a bolt action rifle to a semi-auto. One can never have to much firepower! I have no intention of turning dry fire excercise to live fire just to prove a point and ruin my rifle. I thought it worth mentioning because proper manipulation of the bolt action is becoming a lost art and I regret that. Most people have no idea the amount of thought and science went into making do with the Enfield. For instance, (now this is all stuff that I have learned, I didnt invent any of this) The Brits issued three different length stocks for this rifle and went to a great deal of trouble to make sure that the rifle fit the shooter. Why? because secret #1 to shooting a rifle fast is the head does not move. If you have to move your head to get out of the way of a bolt sliding back, the stock is to short. If in the prone position, it is unconfortable to reach the bolt handle, the stock is too long. Speed trick #2 is that as soon as you ram the rounds in from the stripper clips, go for the bolt, do not waste time removing the empty clip. the act of closing the bolt will remove the clip. The actual bolt manipulation and firing methods have already been mentioned and do not need repeated.
#3 is as you mentioned, the stripper clips need to be polished. Also
you are correct in that all the rounds have to be laid out and in a easy to reach position beforehand. The firing postion has to be solid. Bone support is mandatory. Muscling the sights back to the aiming mark also wastes time. These are just a few tricks that I can remember off the top of my head. Anyone out there that can remember the rest feel free to butt in.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 03:48:09 (ZULU) 
thank's for your input. Could you give me some idea how much is involved in installing the Sharp Shooter trigger in the Savage rifle.

I have used the Beta chrony for about five years. I'm just starting to use it with rifle loads but with handgun I have ran it inline with the top line PACT and could tell no velocity difference.
The printer can be helpfull in keeping things straight if your testing alot of different rounds at the same time. But not a must have.

B. Rogers:
Right on target
Estes <>
Kansas, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 05:23:54 (ZULU) 

greetings gentlemen,the name is ED.this goes out to the MARINES.
i served 4 years with INDIA 3/ out for a year{i know don't start,it get's better}and am now back in only this time i'm a firefighter in the airwing.[see i told you it got better.]
at any rate i'm up for my re-up date soon.needless to say i'm going back to the what is the SNIPER indoc like nowdays.if any of you read this please e-mail me info at
Ralph E.Coffey Jr. <>
Jamestown, Ky, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 06:44:59 (ZULU) 
To Brian: I don't have any need to use surplus ammunition. Why in the WORLD would I want to shoot ball ammunition? I'm not concerned with being "authentic," I'm concerned with hitting what I shoot at. So I handload. I'll leave the Cordite to the reenactors. The only thing I'm concerned about with "authenticity" is cowboy action shooting. Everything else I shoot (whether rifle, shotgun, or handgun) has an intended purpose: targets, elephants, Naugas, unwanted guests, what have you. None of which call for me using crap surplus ammo. You're obviously content, Brian, that the ol' Enfield just can't cut it in the world, against modern semi-autos. Hey, if it works for you....

On the fire-lapping review: Shooter beware. If throat erosion doesn't concern you, have at it. There has been so much material generated on how fire-lapping accelerates throat erosion, it's not funny. It should also be mentioned that it's basically "firearm suicide" if you use such ammo in a gas gun. The abrasives get into the gas system and do irreversible damage. I've used fire-lapping ammunition. It has it's purpose... but your money is better spent rebarreling than fire-lapping if your goal is to achieve surgical accuracy for a "tactical" piece. Sure, I'd use it for a "beater" rifle... LIKE A CLUNKY OLD ENFIELD, for example... or some old gun that had the potential to "shoot" but just wasn't worth spending the money on for a barrel job. I would not, however, use fire-lapping ammunition for the type of equipment we generally discuss here on the Duty Roster. Hey, it's your money, you do as you want. No slam against the article -- it pretty well covered the product and its use... but there's a downside to fire-lapping that potential users should know about. IF YOU WANT TO LAP YOUR BORE, take it to a gunsmith and have him lap it the good old-fashioned way. Or do it yourself -- it's NOT that hard, guys, really.

To Bill: The Sharp Shooter trigger is a straight-up installation "IF" (!!!) your stock has enough room for the trigger assembly itself. Otherwise, you'll need to relieve the trigger area as needed. If you have done trigger work, are not "tool challenged," and can look at things and figure them out, you'll be fine. Otherwise, take it to a gunsmith and have him install it. The manufacturer also does installations of his own product.

To Steve: I agree, if facing the Chinese Red Horde, I'd probably opt for something capable of full-auto fire. I'm a big guy with long fingers and I am NOT "the fastest there is" with an Enfield. Yup, if they're in close, full-auto is the way to go... but if all I had was an Enfield, I'm sure I'd find the speed I needed. I much prefer the long-range method of engagement, though. Ever see "Valdez is Coming" with Burt Lancaster using a Sharps .50? Who SAID long-range single-shots don't have a place on the battlefield?! :-)

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 06:46:14 (ZULU) 

Major Ruge....Ähhh...( ° )( ° )..Ähh... Russ !
What did you do wrong for them to slam you like that ? I thought you were OK. And I already had 16 Rounds of 35 mm reserved for you !

Here I am digging through my Grandpa´s stuff looking for the old Trenchmagazine for the Gewehr 98, I´ll show you what firepower is.

Just noticed that my wedding day is Carlos Hathcock´s Birthday ! Gotta write him a B.Day card.

Thanks for the Chrony Info guy´s. I may be able to get a Oehler 35P for a reasonable price, if not then I´ll stick to the red Chrony and the mentioned Mk I ballpoint.

I´m trying to get a 1000 yard Bushnell laser rangefinder, if I do then I´ll do a test and comparison aginst our Bundeswehr unit. The Bundeswehr unit is really accurate, only problem is size since it has a 56ton Leopard II attched to it.

A friend is trying to remake one of those curved barrel adaptors they had for the Sturmgewehr 44, he has a bolt action in 8 X 33 as a test bed and wants to test how these "shoot around the corner" attachments functioned. Gramps, did you pick one up while you were here ?

Time to build some Guns !

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe>
Germany - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 07:47:38 (ZULU) 

Hey Russ,
Welcome back!, Are You Coming To Carlos Two in Oct.???

Seeee Yooou in October, Don't worry too much about Dino-dude, he'll probably smoke us all with that Ruu, Ruuug, Ruuughe, uh "T-Rex" killer of his. But first you gotta get past the Fly-boy, if you can stop laughing long enough to shoot... :-o !

Funny you should mention kugleschreibers, Oehler uses plain paper for the printer and the inkpads fit handheld calculators so resupply is a doddle. My experiences with the thermal paper printers is that they suck! LISTEN TO UNCLE RUSS AND GET THE OEHLER.

DarrellWest, This is just a test, West.
DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell,DarrellDarell, ...................;-)

Ende' Duudes!

CCCCold-City, By-GaWd, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 09:44:05 (ZULU) 

To Torsten: I have the Yardage Pro 800 and will be ordering the 1,000-yard model in a week or two. I'm getting a "LOT" of money back from my taxes. I'm going to get the YP 1000, the Ruger .454 Casull, a spring bear hunt in Canada, a couch, a washer and dryer, and....

On Charity: Guys, if you haven't done your taxes, let me tell you a couple of things.

1) TurboTax. The JAG guys in my unit are doing taxes for everyone, using this software. I checked it out, liked it, and bought it. It's VERY user friendly and many tax "professionals" (?!) use it, too.

2) When you do ANY "charity shoots," save your receipts, record your mileage, and so on. You get to deduct all, or a part of, those expenses.

For the Carlos N. Hathcock Charity Sniper Competition last year, I deducted the mileage, hotel, meals, et cetera. When I flew out to Denver, CO, and went up to Gillette, WY, for "Carlos II," I deducted the plane tickets, lodging, meals, and so on. Just as smart business operators will deduct their "contribution" to a charity cause (labor costs, equipment, raw materials), so can you. It was $150 to enter the SMTC event last year. Even though I was not competing, I wanted to help Carlos and coughed up the money. And Scott will tell you, I made sure I got a receipt WITH the event information on it, because I knew I would be using it for taxes. So, with my expenses incurred from the Army Reserve drills I attend, and the charity deductions I was allowed to take, and the webmaster work (and related out-of-pocket expenses) I did for ArmaLite last year, I'm getting back a little over ... well, nevermind... but, um, besides the above goodies, I'm also thinking about getting a Barr & Stroud rangefinder from Deutsche Optik.

Bottomline: It PAYS to deduct contributions to charity. Just think of the Remington 700 PSS you could buy -- or, better yet, A BRAND NEW SAVAGE!!! :-)

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 09:50:15 (ZULU) 

To peteR: No.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 09:54:42 (ZULU) 

I never want to be the deliverer of bad news but I just received a call from Dave Brennan of TS magazine, Gunny Hathcock passed away this morning at 0545.

I have no further info on the situation.

Rod Ryan <>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 13:50:27 (ZULU) 

So sorry to hear about the gunny, we truly lost one of the great ones. He may be gone but he will never be forgotten.
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 14:00:41 (ZULU) 
D West - On the wind formula constant watch out. With a constant of 20 you are getting the answer in half minutes. The TC 23-14 is way out of date get hold of a FM 23-10.

For 100-500 yards use 15, 600 use 1114, 700-800 use 13, 900 use 12 and 1000 use 11. Constants are for M118 SB. Hate to say this but its "close enough" for the others. The wind formula is a SWAG anyway.

I prefer to use a method borrowed from the brits where you look at a wind chart for your specific round and find a velocity where the round is deflected about 1 moa per 100 yards (1 moa at 100, 5 moa at 500, 10 moa at 1000). WIth the M118, a 10 mph wind fits the bill, according to my USMC wind chart anyway. So all I have to do is to determine the velocity then work off of the 10 mph base windage. Example 5 mph at 500 yards is 2.5 minutes of wind because a 10 mph wind is worth 5 minutes. 15 mph at 1000 yards is 15 minutes, 3 mph at 100 is 1/4 moa. On and on.

If you have a ballistics program you can figure out a specific rounds base wind velocity (bullet deflected 1 moa/hundred yards/meters) and amaze your friends and family as you memorize your wind chart.

I find that I am usually within .5 moa of my wind chart when using this method. Wind charts are a SWAG 90% of the time anyway. Learn to read mirage too. It will help you pick up the other components of a given wind situation.

Semper Fi Gunny.
gooch <>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 14:44:41 (ZULU) 

check this site out, especially Camoflage !

Torsten <ya know>
germany - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 15:12:38 (ZULU) 

Gunny Hathcock, I know you are sitting at the big round table now with all you warrior friends that had been up there waiting.
Keep an eye on us down here.
Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 15:35:03 (ZULU) 

SEE YA IN VALHALLA GUNNY........................

iN MOURNING CITY, gAWD, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 15:40:40 (ZULU) 

I am very sad to learn of the passing of Carlos N. Hathcock II. But instead of dwelling on this sadness I would prefer to remember him by the inspiration he brought us all. Few people have so unintentionally had so positive an effect on strangers. The gift Carlos Hathcock gave us was more than just a standard for achievement and excellence in our own endeavors. He showed us that anyone, no matter what their back ground, level of income, schooling or upbringing, could adapt, overcome and excel. His example, through the toughest of times, is enough to make everyone of us sit back and ponder our own lives and how we manage them. No matter your station in life, you can take away something positive from the life and experience of Gunny Hathcock.
That is no small thing.

I am sure everyone, no matter their branch of service or civilian status want to wish Carlos one final and heartfelt "Semper Fi!"

Good buy old man, you did you country proud!

Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 15:58:26 (ZULU) 

Conversation with Tasco yesterday reveals that the ss10/16/20x42 rear focus scopes are discontinued. They still make the side focus 10x42m. however. The review of the ss10x42m in SC was correct: early models did not have sunshades. The tech rep said this was because of the (government) contract requirements. Those scopes shipped in the last 6 months have an extended forward bell, about 2 inches longer than early models, that is intended to act as a sunshade. I did not clarify if there was a provision for additional sunshade/filters.(was it threaded to accept them) Now the hard part: I can not find an outlet that still has any of the ss10x42 rear focus left in stock! Any ideas anyone?
longline <>
wa, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 16:24:31 (ZULU) 
Gone but certainly never forgotten, at least by the long range shooters of this and many other countries. Semper Fi, Gunny!!
People's Rep. of, MD, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 16:29:25 (ZULU) 
Here's to Carlo's. An inspiration and legend who's done so much to bring all of us together here. There are times when I am still proud to be an American when I realize it has spawned men like him. I've never used the term "Semper Fi" as I always felt it was a private Marine thing. But it comes from the heart if it's appropriate Marines please allow me just once! God Speed Carlo's Hathcock, America's friend. It is my desperate hope we can manage to preserve what you fought so long and hard for.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 16:45:07 (ZULU) 
I have a Russian Dragunov 7.62X54 Tiger Carbine. I am getting about 3 inch 100 yard groups from the bench. I beleieve this rifle should shoot better. Can any one help with loading data for this rifle? Thanks for any help.
Dan daley <>
Eugene, Oregon, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 17:04:22 (ZULU) 
L&S Inc. Ultra
20X - M1A
S/N 89 1055

I have the above and am confused about the Mil Dots it has. It is one of the last glass etched reticles and the dots are 2 Mil´s apart.
No info from Leupold so far, maybe Premier reticle?, I´ll try.
Anyone out there with the same scope ? How about the 10 or 16 X scopes, if the 10X is a true Mil Dot then what abot the 16 X, 1.6 Mil dot ??? cant be.

Hmmpf ???

Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 17:16:49 (ZULU) 


thats a keeper, I would be happy with 3 MOA at a 100 with a Dragunov.
They were made to put a lot of bullets down on single targets at distances were the Ak 47 would run out of Whomp.

Torsten <>
toasting to the great Gunny, in, Germany - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 17:31:37 (ZULU) 

Terrible news!!! In America today, we need all the men like Carlos Hathcock we can get. Certainly, his remarkable contributions will not be forgotten.

A very sad day indeed...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 17:39:10 (ZULU) 

Sad to hear of the Gunny's passing. Just advised a long ago friend of his and he wanted to know of funeral arrangements. When you know anything, would you please post?
Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 17:55:11 (ZULU) 

I got a Leupold M1 10X MilDot with a Glass Reticle. It is not an Ultra but a Mark4. The MilDots are one Mil apart. They are round. Works great with the Mildot Master. I really been having a lot fun with this great little tool. I got a range here at home, and some steel targets that I set up at random distances. Then I mil out the range and ring the steel. It is so easy. You gotta get one of these.

Gunny Hathcock was a True American Hero for going back into that burning APC to save those other Marines. His contributions to Marksmanship and Professional Snipers will be remembered always. Our thoughts are with his Family and Friends.

Bil Bledsoe <>
Shebly Co., KY, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 18:11:21 (ZULU) 

I'm very sorry to hear about Gunny Hathcock.
He is a true legend and I'll always remember how he represnented our great country.
I salute you Carlos N Hathcock II.
Thank You
ed <>
Mi., USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 18:14:23 (ZULU) 
From the Marine's Hymn:

Here's health to you and to our Corps which we are proud to serve.
In many a strife we've fought for life and never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes,
they will find the streets are guarded by United States Marines.

Semper Fi Gunny.
Mpls, mn, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 18:37:31 (ZULU) 


Depity Dave
Feeling My Country's Loss in, Suddenly Less Sunny West Virginia, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 19:12:42 (ZULU) 

Semper Fi Gunny, from an old Navy guy. This country is great because of outstanding men like you. May we always be so blessed.
Doc <>
The sad Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 19:16:40 (ZULU) 
On the passing of Gunny Hathcock: Today is the anniversery of the the flag being raised on Mount Suribachi.

Roy out
Roy Thomason <>
CS, CO, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 20:09:52 (ZULU) 

Gunnery Sgt. Carlos HathcockII has enterd Valhalla, where all the worlds' Warriors live. Anyone who has read his biography cannot help but feel sad at his passing. Semper Fidelis, Gunny......
Leatherneck <>
Avon, Ma, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 20:39:59 (ZULU) 
May God bless Sgt. Carlos Hathcock II. Andy may God bless his family.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 21:59:08 (ZULU) 

Sgt. Carlos Hathcock: May you find peace and rest. God bless you.

God bless your family.

Jeff A.
Jeff Allen
USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 22:13:31 (ZULU) 

A little note for any one interested. Today at 21:00 EST on the history channel, there will be a documentary on Snipers. Title; "Suicide Mission". Should be one hour long.
Ed <>
Mi., USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 23:03:14 (ZULU) 
God Bless to Sgt Carlos Hathcock II. R.I.P Whitefeather. And God bless to family and friends. De Oppresso Libre.....
Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 23:06:06 (ZULU) 
I'm Air Force Security Forces stuck overseas. If anybody happens to record that History channel show I'd appreciate it if someone gave me a holler. I'd like a copy. Thanks.

Even us airmen appreciate Gunny Hathcock and his accomplishments. God speed.
Darren Malott <>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 00:04:16 (ZULU) 

Semper Fidelis, Gunny Hathcock. You walked the walk, and lived the motto, and we'll miss you. You will not be forgotten. Now, finally, rest in peace.
GA, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 00:29:37 (ZULU) 
I'm a bit late in getting the news. Just minutes ago I received word from Stuart Meyers about the death of Carlos Norman Hathcock II.

I talked briefly with Carlos III. He and Jo are "doing okay." (What else would you expect from a Marine family?)

Note the following:

Services will be held at Woodlawn Memorial Garden, Norfolk, VA, (757)455-8781. I asked Carlos about memorial contributions, whether they should go to Jo, or what. He said that they are asking for all memorials to be made to either the Multiple Sclerosis Society or the Navy/Marine Corps Relief. If ("when") you make your memorials, please go a bit out of your way to make sure they know the reason for your contribution. Doing so will make a nice tribute to Carlos II.

For those of you who, no matter what the family wants, prefer to send your donations to Jo, or to send flowers, here's the address.


Let's try to remember that no matter what Carlos II meant to us, he was someone's husband and someone's father and someone's grandfather. Our loss doesn't compare to theirs. Please be respectful of that if you call or write or send flowers.

Speaking personally, I don't know what to say. I'm very sad. I'm lost.

"Semper Fidelis, Carlos."
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 00:35:28 (ZULU) 

I'm sorry. I forgot to give the visitation and funeral times.

The visitation is Thursday from 6-8 p.m. and the funeral is Friday at noon. See my last post for the funeral home information.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 00:39:02 (ZULU) 

My condolences to the Hathcock family, he was an inspiring man, a true role model. Semper Fidelis, Gunny, your legacy lives on.

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 02:58:02 (ZULU) 

I came home from teaching snipers all day to find that the sniper has passed on. Seldom is one so moved by anothers abilities and contributions as I was with Sgt. Hathcock. I gace my students an article from precision shooting about the Gunny and told them to read carefully and learn. I had no idea that he was gone from this earth and in Valhala. Gunny you have inspired us all and as I sit in my bubble I will think of you and your gift to us all. Semper Fi Gunny
Calif., USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 03:00:39 (ZULU) 
Call 1-800-708-1776 to order "Suicide Missions: Snipers" for $19.95 plus shipping and handling. This is the show that appeared on The History Channel tonight, which just concluded several minutes ago. They mentioned Carlos by name and Major Land. I didn't see it because it turns out you have to subscribe to that channel, but someone taped it for me. Still, I called just a few minutes ago and ordered my own copy.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 03:11:28 (ZULU) 

Mr. Hathcock sir, god's speed and if you see him say hello to my dad. He was a distingushed rifleman in the late sixties and seventies and shot at the national matches in Camp Perry many times. He passed away my senior year in high school. He taught me at an early age how to shoot and had me competing at age 15 in 600 yard NRA short courses against men, not NRA Juniors. He instilled in me that it is okay to accept failure, but only if you have done everything to succeed. You and my father were legends to me when it came to shooting ability and passing that on to others. The earth sparkles a little less in the heavens with your passing. Though I had never had the priviledge to meet you, based on your writings, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and am reflective in my mood at your passing. My condonlences go out to your family. May the lord, our god's hand, reach out to them, and comfort their hearts knowing that you have been delivered unto him.

I hope that our response is reflected by participation in the Storm Mountain match.
Anthony Tull <>
Granbury, TX, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 03:21:10 (ZULU) 

To everyone:
I just wanted to say thanks for your website. I am 43yrs old with an 18yr son, the contribution you guys have made to the quality of our shooting cannot be put into words. I am expert with any kind of hand gun but leave alot to be desired with a long weapon. Not any more! The advice from the mechanics of the rifle to lessons in feild craft have done much to limit the growth of praire dogs and coyotes in our area, not to mention the strong bond created between my son and I. You men are a credit to your service and your country. Do not change a thing on this website. Us civilian shooters benifit greatly. Thanks and shoot a savage.
Larry <>
wwd, okla, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 03:25:53 (ZULU) 
The show Suicide Missions is on again tonight at 12am Central time on the History channel I just got home from work and thought I missed it I checked the TV book and the repeat show will be on a 12am CST

Does anyone know of an outdoor shooting rage here in MN? The closest one to my house has a 2 year waiting period. The yuppies are trying to shut it down. I live in St. Paul MN. Thanks

Semper FI Gunny have a drink with Odin and Eric the Red.
Peoples Republic , MN, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 03:42:48 (ZULU) 

Long Tranh has left the hide...via con dios my friend
bill m <>
central , ny, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 04:08:37 (ZULU) 
We'll all miss a true American Hero.
Semper Fi

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 04:22:26 (ZULU) 

Gunny will be guarding the gates to Valhalla in his own way... about 700 yards out.

God speed from the Johnston family.
Lance M. Johnston, SGT <>
Jonesville, MI, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 06:23:27 (ZULU) 

All the views expressed in this Duty Roster reflect my thoughts for Gunny Hathcock. Retired and Recalled - by the Grace of God. Amen

Al Ostapowicz <>
In a Saddened State in the State of, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 08:24:03 (ZULU) 


A couple of questions:

Am a novice rifle shooter and thinking that my length of pull on my rifle is too short, is there a way to determine the correct length, don't want to make the length too long. Considering purchase of McMillan with butt spacers to solve problem.

Is it the general consensus that Federal .308 Match 168gr. is the best commercial ammo out there. What about Black Hills? A local shop dealer suggested IMI match 168gr., would like feedback.

Gunny, it makes me proud to be an American knowing what you have given to your country. Rest in peace.


TX, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 08:29:04 (ZULU) 

Good bye GySgt. Carlos Hathcock

Go with God. Our prayers are with you and your family in this time of loss.

Semper Fidelis

Brian Middleton <>
Irvine, CA, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 10:11:55 (ZULU) 

Good bye Long Tranh, I only met you once way back when over there, before you were famous, before anyone gave a crap, you were special then, you stayed special, you helped all you touched and many, many that you didn't, you gave hope to all, you were the best of the best, may you rest well old man, you gave them hell when it was called for, you never begged out or shyed away from your duty, you just went out and did the job in the best way that you could, you will always be number one in my book! God now has complete coverage on all perimeters! Would go on but can't see my key board anymore.

Out here
Gramps <>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 13:11:25 (ZULU) 

Hey Guys, I am breaking in a Remington 700 police and I figured I would give it a light cleaning before I shot it. That light cleaning turned into a nightmare!! Th patches kept coming out blue/orange with no end in sight!!! Is this normal for a new rifle? What should I use to remove the fouling? Should I let it soak for a while? Should this much cleaning be necessary on a brand new rifle!!? If anyone can give me some insight I would much appreciate it, Thanks in advance.
James Castagno <>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 13:55:21 (ZULU) 
This is not oncommon in a new rifle. There is always residue left in the barrel after the rifeling process and the the barrel is probably prof tested. I always start by giving it a good cleaning and brushing with Hoppies then I go to Sweets until there is no "Blue" on the patch then I go to JBs bore paste and run at least 5 patchs through about 5 to 6 times each to really get it clean and then clean it with a wet patch of Hoppies again then I run a number of dry patchs through it and I am then ready to start the break in process. I know this may sound a little "Anal retentive" but it does make for a nice smooth barrel and clean up is a lot easier down the road. A little time spent here will save a lot of time down the road. Shooting through the crud only makes for a rough barrel because a lot of times it will become a part of the barrel through the firing process.

Thank you for the Moly article!! I had pretty much came to that conclusion thanks to all the imput from Scott and others. I also had an interesting chat with one of my gunsmiths and he said a lot of the "Big Boys" are also droping the moly thing too.

Jeff A,
Sounds like the match was fun wish I could have been there!! You need to start shooting that 260 though so we can get some raw data on it.

Are you still out there?? If so How fast can you guys push a 140 out of the 6.5s that you shoot?? and have you ever played with the 6.5-06??? I have a friend who is looking to build one that will push a 140 A-Max at 3000fps.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 14:22:13 (ZULU) rejected the only bid I could make for tickets to either of the two airports at Norfolk, so I guess I'll miss the visitation and funeral. This really bothers me as I would desperately like to pay my respects to Carlos. I hope those of you close enough will be able to make it and say goodbye.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 14:45:26 (ZULU) 

Gunny Hathcock, I had the pleasure of serving with you aboard the USS Simon Lake (AS33) in Rota, Spain. You were a shining example to the MarDet, and to the whole crew. We saw you determined to stay in the Corps: You P.T.d every day with your troops, running (though far behind you were always in front). I remember the day that the Commandant and the I.G. came aboard for a change-of-command ceremony, and how the Commandant pushed aside the Major and saluted YOU, and said "It's an honor to meet you Gunny Hathcock". In your passing I salute you. You were and are a true inspiration. Semper Fi!
Marc <>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 14:49:21 (ZULU) 
Did anyone catch the History Channel show "Suicide Missions: Sniper" last night? Watching the show was a much more moving experience in light of Gunny Hathcock's passing yesterday. I caught a few errors, such as misnaming Capt. Herbert McBride, showing the wrong reticle when talking about USMC Scout / Snipers and their equipment, etc.

B. Melick <>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 14:56:37 (ZULU) 

Yes it is a sad day in the Sniper community down here at Camp Lejeune. The Marine's Of 2nd Marine's and 3/6 Scout Sniper Platoon send the Hathcock family our most heart felt condolences. To White Feather, thanx for all you have done, we will keep all the memories, and teachings in our hearts.

Tommorrow will be a lonly day while we train on Hathcock range here at Camp Lejeune, but every round tommorrow, all 2000 of them will be in Memory of the worldest finest Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock!!

Semper Fi!

3/6 Scout Snipers!!!
Sgt. G.
Camo Lejeune, Nc, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 15:16:42 (ZULU) 

Someone asked about the SS10x42 rear focus.

SWFA has them on sale for $299.

Don't everyone buy them at once as I'd like one too!

Hey, did you all like Roger Mudd's closing on the show last night? Just Sniper Country's VERY small contribution to that show.

Is anyone in the PA/MD/DE/WV area planning on attending the funeral? If it is open to the public I would like to attend. A car pool might be in order.
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 15:29:30 (ZULU) 

God Speed, Gunny. May your spirit live on. You will be sorely missed.
Dan Amish <>
Erie, PA, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 15:48:02 (ZULU) 
Can anyone verify the factuality of the Stalingrad sniper dual between Vasily Zeitzev and Major Koenig? This has been presented time and again as fact and I still can not find anything to refute OR verify the events as typically portrayed. It was a major feature in last nights airing of the sniper program on the History Channel. Both John Plaster and Craig Roberts spoke of the event. So was this just great and long lasting Soviet propaganda or did this event actually take place as described? I have heard so many conflicting accounts. Seeing it laid out again on last nights program seems to indicate this would be a good topic for discussion here.

Come on all you visitors from the East. Give us interested capitalist the low down. With 50+ years gone by and all parties opening their historical records, the actual truth should not be that hard to find. Can anyone answer this definitively?

Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 16:09:25 (ZULU) 


If you would care to read the Gunny's obituary, written by Jack Dorsey of "The Virginian-Pilot" newspaper, you can find it at:

Semper Fi Gunny
Doc <>
The sad Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 16:16:46 (ZULU) 

SWFA reports it is out of the SS10x and SS16x. I tried:)
Bruce <>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 17:40:43 (ZULU) 
The hardcore net-geeks among us can order the "Suicide Missions: Sniper" video online via, there's a link to it off of their homepage. I had to order it since my lousy #@*%! cable company (TCI) only provides the History Channel if you sign up for their entire digital cable package. The online form says that the tape won't be available to ship until 3/29.

Those of you who want to send flowers to the Hatchcock family can do so via, which is what I did. I'm still bummed... and he passed away on my wife's 30th birthday.

Scott: It might be difficult to confirm the story of that duel, with those oh-so-trustworthy Nazis and Commies each telling their side of things - Lord knows *those* folks would never lie... I've seen a lot of comments over the years and a few tellings of that story, but nothing truly canonical. Apparently there are some discrepancies in the standard version of the story as well, although I can't remember exactly what off the top of my head. Would be nice if someone really got to the bottom of things, as best as possible, once and for all...

Dave <>
San Jose , CA, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 18:59:15 (ZULU) 

(757) 461-4054
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 19:19:41 (ZULU) 
Hello Russ!

Nice to see you back online.

How's the .338/378-project going?

To Pat, re. 6.5-06.

I'm still out here. Working A LOT with the Y2K problem. Going to do a clocktest this easter.

I've seen a couple of 6.5-06 projects. They were not successful because they used european barrels. Couldn't break 3000fps with 140gr bullets. The 6.5-06 should be able to do it with tighter US-barrels. I've seen .264WM/3100fps and .264-3000/3300fps. Barrellife is less than 1500 rounds. I prefer .260/6.5X55/6.5-284 at 2700-2900fps. Very effective and with a round barrellife. 140gr molycoated bullets at 2600fps gives you 8-10000 round barrellife in SS-barrels.

The ultra high velocity 6.5mm rounds seem to work better with leighter bullets. I'd try bullets in the 120gr range. Nosler 125gr for hunting. The germans use 100-120gr for the 6.5-68.


I'm going to CeBit in march.

TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 22:10:49 (ZULU) 

I have an enfield .308 that was given to me as a gift but its tore the heck apart I need to find a manual somewhere to make sure I put it back together properly before I modify it. I also want an Unertl scope but I can't seem to find one. I am also looking for a good range in southern Ga or northern Fla. Or anywhere in the vicinity. Any help at all would be appreciated.
lcpl Pierce <>
Kings Bay, Ga, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 23:02:31 (ZULU) 
I haven't been listening in for a while.... Carlos was a man all snipers respected and admired.... Drive on.....Joe R.
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.WA.USA>
Kelso, WA, USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 23:38:22 (ZULU) 
How about shutting SC down the day of Gunny Hathcock's funeral. Kind of a day of respectful silence.
USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 00:18:33 (ZULU) 
Looking for a little help. After cutting a barrel to the length desired what is the big deal between a step type crown and having a target type crown. The rifle is a 24" long 1-8 twist Hart barreled .223 and will see mostly field use and a little bench use in an informal league. Any advantage or disadvantage to either???
Todd <>
Andover, NY, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 00:59:24 (ZULU) 
Just read of Carlos' passing. I can't really add anything but that we're all better off for having had him around.

peteR; clicks on a 1911 to 800 yds? all of 'em.

Gooch; nice article in TS. My compliments and thanks

Officer Chessnut (sp?) could you please take a moment and e-mail me with your opinion on your TBA rifle? Thanks in advance.

All of you guys; Hope we all enjoy at least the same freedom we have today in the next 100 or so years. I'm a little somber today. Best wishes to all. good night.
Jim Liles <>
mostadultbookstorespercapitatown, ooooohregon, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 01:07:58 (ZULU) 

Silent SC site: If youn'z want the SC website to go quiet during a period of time in honor of Carlos - let me know

God Bless Ya Carlos - Semper Fi

Ken ;)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 02:20:28 (ZULU) 

I think a "Day of Silence" would be appropriate for Carlos. I certainly don't have a problem with it.

Forgive me, but what was Carlos' birth date?
Larry <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 03:19:16 (ZULU) 

Carlos N. Hathcock II

born 20 May 1942

Little Rock, Arkansas

I like to think that the Gunny has slipped outside the wire again to check things out for the rest of us.

Take care Gunney
Semper Fidelis

G. P. Lakin Sgt. USMC 64-68
P. Lakin <>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 04:23:25 (ZULU) 

Larry: 5/20/42.

LCPL Pierce: There are several good books on assembly/disassembly of various rifles. The DBI book "Firearms Assembly/Disassmbly Part IV", Frank de Haas' "Bolt Action Rifles", and "The NRA Guide to Firearms Assembluy/Disassembly" cover the Enfield #1 style rifles, while the latter two also cover the #4 style. You might want to try the FAQ at or one of the Enfield rifle sites to see if they have the info you need online.

You don't say exactly what you have disassembled, and your "Enfield .308" could be either the #1 (like the Ishapore 2A1) or #4 (like an L42A1) style. If you could provide specefics I could try to be of more service. In either case, as the new owner of a used Enfield it is probably a good idea to pay the small fee it will cost and have a gunsmith check out the rifle for you.

I've always like Lee-Enfields myself, I really wish I had an L42A1...

Dave <>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 04:35:00 (ZULU) 

Due to last minute circumstances beyond my control, I can't make the funeral. Long story. I guess I'll just send flowers and make a memorial offering to MS. This whole situation is very sad all the way around for me.

To TorF: I sent you the URL for rifle.

Yes, I'm very much in favor of shutting down Sniper Country on the day of Carlos' funeral, perhaps at the time of his burial until midnight. The funeral is at noon, eastern time.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 05:11:43 (ZULU) 

hello one and all:

I'll work on that 6,5 140 grain 3000 fps problem you got there, shouldnt take long. Sierra says they are getting 2950 fps out of their Winchester gun, ours are just a bit quicker on the go due to tighter bores.

oh, hey, by the way, we shot a 300 wby the other day. 180 grain Sierra, 75 gr 4350, .0326" group. 31-3200 fps. nothin but bull.

g'night ladies

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 05:23:38 (ZULU) 

on the 6,5 ,going by Sierra, they use a 1/8" twist barrel, I think you could go with a 1/9-9.5" twist, then your 100-120 gr bullets would also stabilize, which you should be shooting anyway

JR <>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 05:35:22 (ZULU) 

Yes, I can't find the appropriate words but we should "run silent" during this time.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 06:08:54 (ZULU) 

Godspeed, Gunny...

Ed <>
CP Greaves, ROK - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 08:06:01 (ZULU)

check this site for some real nice hardware

Torsten <>
Germany - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 11:02:13 (ZULU) 

A dark cloud has been cast upon the hearts and souls of everyone here......GOD bless the spirit and the family of WHITEFEATHER.
Pup <>
Canada - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 13:33:18 (ZULU) 
The guy with the 6.5 problem wants to push the 140 A-MAX to around 3000fps for long range shooting out to 1000yds but doesn't want a "Barrel burner". I know the 6mm-06 and the 6mm-284s are barrel burners but there pushing light bullets and maybe using more powder. I've been looking at maybe a 257 case or even a 6mm case this may be enough to get right around the 3000fps mark. I have a 260 with a 1x8 twist and it will push the 142s to 2800 with no pressure signs. He wants to use the rifle for tactical shooting and thats why he doesn't want a barrel burner because a lot of rounds will go down range and some in quick sucession. I should be out to Rapid on the afternoon of the 2nd at around 3:30 your time or I can meet with you the next day after lunch let me know what will work for you.

Good to hear from you again!!! Thanks for the info I'll pass it on. If you read my post to JR you will see I was trying to come up with a compromise, something inbetween the 260 and the 06 case. My 260 is shooting half minute MOA out to 500yds so far, so I will put you in my will after all(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 14:31:15 (ZULU) 

To All:
There is a notice in "USA Today", Thursday, 25 Feb. NATIONLINE column, page3A, about the Gunny.

Fred Fischer
People's Rep. of, MD, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 15:51:12 (ZULU) 

I was sorry to read of Gunny's passing, I wish him well in the next world. I think shuting down for a day would be a great tribute to his honor. Thanks Again
Craig <>
Santa rosa, CA, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 18:30:21 (ZULU) 
Hi all,

I am not really active on the Roster, and have not been for quite some time, as some have hopefully noticed :-) I just had a word with Sarge ( via ICQ - nice toy! ), and he told me about the "site shutdown" talk.

I do not think it is a good idea. The site is international, not just dedicated to the USA, even though the majority of you are from the USA. I have come to a lot of respect for the Gunny, and all he did and achieved and meant. But, if we do it for him, do we also do it when a South African sniper of fame dies? And a German? And a Norwegian?... That is why I do not think it is a good idea, and not because there's not respect.

Of course it is a loss, especially to you people, and us foreigners can understand that, and have great respect for that. I have just put his picture on the front page, with it linking directly to the obituary URL someone posted here. But the site seems to be down right now, so I hope it is the correct address.

Semper Fi!


Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 19:55:09 (ZULU) 

Shutting down SC in memory of Carlos may be a good tribute on the surface but, for those of you who knew him, is that what you think he would want done?
blank <in order not to piss anyone off>
USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 20:00:02 (ZULU) 
Shutting down SC for a day in memory of Carlos may be a good tribute on the surface but, for those of you who knew him, is that what you think he would want done?
blank <in order not to piss anyone off>
USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 20:00:49 (ZULU) 

I had not thought about the Internationalism of Sniper Country, but of course it is a WorldWide Site. I guess you do have a point here.
Thanks for the Picture of Carlos Hathcock ll on the main page. He is truly a legend in his own time. An Extraordinary Man. He will be missed.

Best Regards,

Bill Bledsoe <>
Shelby County, KY, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 20:34:07 (ZULU) 

One thing I am sure Carlos would not want is to cause any inconvience to anyone anywhwere especially on SC.
I suggest those of us who wish to observe that will not post. Others continue as usual. I agree that it is an international site and that might be a difficult practice to adhere too. Perhaps it would be tribute enough for each observer to post that his site will be down and for what reason. Hoping that doesn't cause Marius too much extra work.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 20:58:51 (ZULU) 
I am new to long range/varmit shooting. I am looking at a Rem .223 PSS to start with. I would like to use the UARS stock by Remington or the Stock that Plaster designed. I am 6'5" and like the idea of stock adjustments.
Were can I purchase the heavy "26 barrel and action, but not the H-S stock?

In the future I would like to move up to a .308. Is it hard to convert? I know that both calibers use the short action, is it easier/cheaper to convert or purchase a new rifle when the time comes?


Up in the Wild U.P. of Michigan

Tony <>
MI, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 22:45:23 (ZULU) 


It's not that I was startled that you finally did it after all this time, but it appeared ONE DAY after I went through the old Duty Rosters reading your old comments on those things. Then I was searching the web for more info on them, and found little of use.

When I saw the article today, I stopped and blinked in amazement. I couldn't believe the timing.

And of course it comes less than 24 hours after I bought a pair of GI M19s!...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, February 25, 1999 at 23:11:45 (ZULU)