Sniper Country Duty Roster

February 2007

Gentlemen,

Joe: Guilty as charge on both accounts. We had one pretty good guy in my squad that we picked up. I didn't know when I started that Ours was the Christmas break class, but when it rolled around I was a happy camper! I went from 180 to 140. I think my body was screwed up for a year. Remember perma-dirt?

Rod: At jump school in 83, they still used the T-5 harness for some of the training aids (swing landing trainer, 34 foot towers) and we may have made a jump with them, but I am not positive on that part. Too many years, too many beers. Never had any doubt that it would work. Course I was young and stupid at the time. Had a friend of mine that was a mountain warfare guru. He said you could tell the airborne from the non airborne soldier in mountain school by how they trusted there equipement. Airborne soldiers generally would trust it becuase they had jumped and their gear had saved there life. Non airborne soldiers generally had not experienced that and were less inclined to trust there gear.

Anybody ever use the poly dunk kit from cylinder and slide shop. One of my buddies came to visit with a 12 year old bottle of single malt and a poly dunk kit. The single malt was excellent, but never used there dunk kit. Anybody?

Pat II
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 00:57:38 (ZULU)

......Adrienne Barbeau? Remember "Escape from New York" ? Classic footage of her breathing.

Pat II
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 00:59:48 (ZULU)

Whoa Bolt!

That was nice. In most shots you see her in they look huge. These were perfect. She looked about 22 there. A perfect BIG C

Wasn't she in "The Deep"? or was that someone else?

No that was Jaculine Bisset. Now there is a pair also.

Back to that Michael Parks thing. Sportsters were such a pain in the ass in those years. They had that magneto for spark, and if everything wasn't perfect (timing & points wise) starting it was such a royal pain. I never saw him with a feeler gauge down there.

Nice fantasy though, I liked the show. It was about at that time I was heading for British Columbia on my bike from Jersey. I was teased at the party before my trip about being like Bronsen. But thats another story.

Wasn't it "There goes Bronsen?"

Just kidding

doug sickels
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 01:37:13 (ZULU)

Bolt,

I don't know what to say!

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 01:38:45 (ZULU)

Boltster Dude!!!

Adrienne Barbeau breathing causes my breathing ;))))

The rest of the week will be fine.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 01:45:01 (ZULU)

"The Old Incorrigible Roach Motel"

Home to shooters and afficionados of terrific genetic codes .....

Duman
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 03:05:42 (ZULU)

Gents,

Sounds like I'm not the only one with "systems problems". I've had intermitent internet connectivity the last week or so. Will try to catch up on posts tomorrow, as I roll into a 4 day weekend. Momma and I are going to the Oregon coast...;-)

Recieved my Nikon 6.5 X 20 X 44mm today. WOW! At the same time I discovered a write up of the same scope in the March 2001 edition of Precision Shooting magazine. The writer gave it a big thumbs up! I know 'Lito thinks they are good, too.

Here's what I got for my $370.00 (dealer pricing). The matt finished scope, sunshade, soft lense cloth, AND a 4" sun shade. Scope comes with an extended turrent with covers AND a set of Target turrets. Interestingly, literature said the one piece tube is made from Titanium, not aluminum. Internal click adjustments are 1/8 MOA and are constructed of steel and brass. Guess the Japs are outsourcing now...it reads "Made in the Phillipines". Appears to be a quality product and makes me wonder if I've bought my last Luppie.

This will go on my AR-10 once the 1" inserts for my Larue 30mm mount arrives. Will keep you folks informed as the story unfolds. More, on the 'morrow when I get off duty.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 04:36:47 (ZULU)

Jaysus, Bolt! Put a freakin' warning or sumthin' on those before you post them. I damn near bit the neck of'n my beer bottle. Shit. Now I gotta limp.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 06:55:23 (ZULU)

These young whipper snappers don't know what it was like to see real womenz with real tatas and hair where it is supposed to be!

I've got to get back to shooting topics. Neked pics are nice but I'd rather have a nice rifle to look at these days. The lovely and vivacious Dough Lady is enough for me :)

Been up all morning with sinuses...again......not a happy camper. I've tried all the recommended remedies...again....time for heavy Rx type drugs.

Bolt, worn out and out of here!

Bolt
Buy milk and bread........its a snow alert in ......, NC, - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 08:30:18 (ZULU)

" I see the fair haired boy from ILL Barrack Osamma want's to introduce legislation to cap the troops at 130,000 and withdraw by spring of 08."

I'd really like to know where this moron thinks they get the authority to do such idiocy?

Then we have the jackass Arlen Spector RINO from Pa claiming the CIC isn't the only decider about troop levels and deployments.

Isn't there ANYONE left in CONgress with a) the knowledge and b) the spine to have all these morons censured for lack of Constitutional knowledge?

"If you think they cannot establish a caliphate here, you fail to realize the abject violence they are capable of using against infidels, or the lack of will found in our cities. Go watch a beheading video...

If it ever comes to that, the only fight left is fairly ruthless. I mean, pure-d-evil shit. On both sides. One is already committed to that stuff."

They have PRK, MA, Ill, and Detroit/Pontiac Mi (which already is a caliphate).

If they want a war in the US streets they might find that flyover country isn't as meaningless as DC and the left coast think.

Adrienne Barbeau provided many breathing problems in my youth. drooool

George
boomtown, Tn, - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 12:00:53 (ZULU)

Came across this link to a youtube video.

A .223 AR on a 10"x17" steel plate at 680 yds (don't think the 223 can't ruin your day at long range). But for some of youz new guys, it is a great example of being able to see the sonic shock waves as the bullet runs to the plate, and you can clearly see the arc of the bullet. Nicely done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJWLP81qCAE

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 13:42:44 (ZULU)

Wes:"Interestingly, literature said the one piece tube is made from Titanium, not aluminum." For $370?? Even at dealer pricing, that doesn't sound right. I'm probably wrong, and if so, i'm heading to the store now..... :8-p

Bolt, I don't know where you keep finding those pics, but .... THANK YOU!

Duman
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 14:17:33 (ZULU)

Kittywhomper: Winchester makes 6m&m Rem brass. Midway (Click my name) has it.

CDC'
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 14:27:36 (ZULU)

Kittywacker,

Listen to Alan the 6x47 is going to be the up an coming round. I have a 6XC which is also a great 6MM case. Its an overgrown 6BR. They are very accurate and Norma is now making brass for the XC.

The 6x47s shooting the 75 to 80gr bullets will push them to 3500+fps with Varget. This or the 6XC would be a triffic 600yd round using the varmint bullets. My 6XC will shoot under .5moa at 600yds on a very regular basis if I do my part. Which ever one you go with you will be very happy!!! Trust me on this.

A lot of guys are going to the .243s or improved versions to push the 115s to 3000+fps @ 1000yds. They are going to the bigger cases so they can use the slow burning powders to try to increase barrel life. This seems to be the new theory on increasing barrel life. Slower powders burn cooler but slower powders need bigger cases.

Pat
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 15:11:17 (ZULU)

Withdrawal plan.

1. Hire 600 Gurkas to cover our retreat and when they leave.....

2. Fly by salute from 200 B-52's from Diego Garcia dumping all spare ord that has an expiration date.

3. A farewell fly over by the Israeli Airforce on their way to Iran.

4. On the last wave out we empty all our gunships on Bagdad so we don't have to dispose of the ammo before we come home.

5. Draw a line 200 miles off the U.S. Coast and sink everything not authorized to cross it.

6. Pay the Gurkas.

Brogers
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 16:34:07 (ZULU)

Lito,

sorry I did not get back to you sooner.My 700 extracter.I can put an empty case on the bolt and it just sits there and then if you let go it flings off to the side.I think it might be the cases, the case heads might be getting thin,they have been reloaded about 8 times.And the problem does not exist with new nosler cases.

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 16:55:15 (ZULU)

This morning, I hear on the news that they caught two GENERALS in the Iraqi army that WE are training and arming... these two bastards are part of the team that took out a bunch of our guys last week.

At this point, there is NO way to tell the good guys from the bad guys - a score card just won't do it anymore.

That country is so corrupt and fucked up, that it is un-winable. It's not that our guys can't win it, it's that they can't do what is necessary because it's too ugly. The American public is too sensitive to watch the war as it should be fought.

I don't think those people are worth the cost anymore.

Jon-K...

Might be that the brass is too beat up in the head, if the old brass won't eject, but new brass will.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 18:40:22 (ZULU)

We has met the enemy and they is those whom we sought to save!

Brogers
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 19:10:46 (ZULU)

Isn't it interesting how history repeats itself? We put ourselves in a similar mess over four decades ago in Southeast Asia and haven't been able to learn a damned thing from it!

Funny how we had an ignorant Texan as President who relied on an arrogant asshole SecDef back then too. Party affiliations mean very little. Politicians all wind up being the same. The same mistakes that were made in Vietnam are being repeated in Iraq. Similar domestic policies are destroying our country from the inside. LBJ had his "Great Society" including the "War On Poverty" and other attempts at social engineering. BushII has his own cross to bear, including immigration, amnesty, the trade deficit, outsourcing, and runaway gov't spending.

How we could have the audacity to insist that the average Vietnamese peasant would spurn his millenia-old beliefs and embrace what he considered a threatening new system that came from an unknown people still boggles the mind. And we repeat the same mistake with Iraq! Did our leaders actually believe that they could turn a pre-medieval system made up of religious fanatics and ignorant peasants into a democratic modern society? How arrogant of us!

Now look at the past to see the future - our Congress will cut off funding for "Bush's Last Stand" like they did for "Vietnamization" and will cause our forces to withdraw from Iraq just like we did from Vietnam. Al-Queda will be the controlling presence in Baghdad within two months of our withdrawal, just like the NVA and VC was in Saigon.

Yet another victory for the "peace movement" comprised of the American left and its allies in Congress, the media and the universities.

We are a very arrogant and self-centered society. What else would make us assume that these stone-age barbarians would want to forsake the only way of life they've known? Why would we believe that these savages would want to take a chance on the unknown instead of cowering under heel of the kind of dictatorship whether religious or military that they've always lived under and believed in?

Whats more, what do you expect we would do if the US were invaded by a foreign power, especially one comprised of people of a different race and religion? Even if we lived under a dictatorship, we would allow our foreign invaders only enough time to depose it, and as soon as that was accomplished we would be in full-scale revolt against our foreign occupiers. It seems to me that Iraq doesn't want our "help".

Nuke the entire Mid-East, then let what's left of the world worry about oil. It might be surprising just how quickly viable energy alternatives might be found when there's no Arab oil left to worry about.

Yeah, I know. It's only a pipe dream.

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 21:19:32 (ZULU)

'Lito- does Adrienne cause you to breathe or pant?

Don't think Iraq unwinnable-yet. BUT, we need to start the summary executions permitted under the laws of war. Screw world opinion. Also, the Phenoix program worked quite well when run properly.

Val Verde County, TX retirement communities- Gee the map shows the whole southern border is the Rio Grande. This has distinct possibilities. Didn't have time to pull up the topo to select the best sites.

WR Moore
Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 21:48:53 (ZULU)

WR Moore...

BOTH - at the same time ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 21:52:21 (ZULU)

Gents,

Alan, Well said! That was my feeling going into Iraq and still is, BUT we have to draw a line somewhere and HOLD it. Something the liberal left doesn't seem to understand. The want to play nice. In this case "nice" will get them beheaded with the dull knife on TV...

Duman, The literature/manual that came with my Monarch scope reads: "NIKON Riflescope Monarch Titanium". However, the Specifications for the Monarch line show the 3.3 X 10 X 44 and the 5.5 X 16.5 X44 marked specifically as Titanium. As you can see, the waters are a bit "muddied" at this point.

Jacob Gottfredson's article in the March 2001 Precision Shooting gives additional information and his opinion of the scope. He confirms the crisp 1/8 MOA clicks are positive and use brass and steel click movements. He says: "They are built on one piece, aircraft grade, aluminum tubes, and are guaranteed shockproof to 1,000 G's. In 2000 Nikon added Titanium ocular and objective lens housings, as well". So, from this I gather the scope is a mix of aircraft grade aluminum AND titanium. No bother, if it performs as advertised and were all aluminum it would still be a steal at $370.00 dealer price(w/shipping). The product number of my scope is 6575, it was on close out. I got the last one. Other dealers may have them, as well, and I saw no indicators that they are being phased out.

Will keep you in the loop as the story unfolds.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 22:22:07 (ZULU)

Alan,

I agree with you partly about the comparison between the war in Iraq, and the war in Vietnam. However, the Vietnamese didn't kill 3,000 Americans here at home. The savages that did that were trained, or sponsored by people in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Syria. They are sponsoring the attacks that continue in Iraq. The leftists in Congress know that, but won't admit it. We do have the ability to defeat the insurgents(savages) with our military, but lack the political will power to do it. The leftists in Congress, the media, and hollywood are doing exactly what they did during the vietnam war. I think the consequences of defeat in Iraq are much greater than vietnam though.

I recall that in the last year of the war in vietnam after LineBacker2 our aircraft could fly over Hanoi without any SAMs. We'd quit playing by "rules" and bombed their railroads, and storage areas 24/7. I don't think we did this so we'd win the war, but the Paris Peace talks were going no where fast. The commies were stalling, and arguing about the furniture in the meeting room until we bombed Hanoi, and Haiphong in late 1972. The Peace Agreement was signed about a month after the end of Line Backer2. The media won't tell you about that part of the Vietnam War.

LBJ was often quoted as saying that he didn't want to defeat the vietnamese, but just wanted to send them a "message". What an idiot. I hated that POS til the day he died. When I was flying for my first airline there was a former Vietnamese AF pilot that worked there too. He'd personally thank every Vietnam Veteran he met for their effort, and sacrifice.

We also had a former Iranian AF pilot that worked there too. He told a story of being airborne in his fighter searching for the airliner that carried Khomeni back to Tehran from Paris. His orders were to shoot down the airliner. He told me he hated Khomeni and his gang of thugs so bad that he quit praying to Allah.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
KY, USA - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 22:46:29 (ZULU)

While we're on a roll...........

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/174647~Jean-Harlow-Posters.jpg

Getting ready to hit the hard Rx drugs, no coughing tonight, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Thursday, February 1, 2007, at 23:27:17 (ZULU)

Alan,

You forgot a few important differences:

1) The VN didn't blow up the Twin Towers and kill 3000+ US citizens on US soil.

2) We didn't go to Iraq to instill a western democracy that was a bonus

and most importantly

3) If we pull out like we did in VN (while we are kicking the dog crap out of the bad guys at every turn) it won't be 2 years until we have a repeat of 9/11 only on a greater scale, possibly over several states at the same time in malls, schools, and sporting events - small towns, mid-size cities, and major metropolitian areas equally attacked.

It is ALWAYS better to fight them in their home than in our home.

At the moment I'm not sure which bunch of psychopaths annoy me more - the radical muslims or the liberal politicians/media.

George
KaBOOM central, Tn, - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 00:13:49 (ZULU)

Guys,

Any of you have a good mini-14 side mount you'll be willing to part with? I'm putting a BSA Big Cat on the mini for coyotes.

Good, clear, WIDE F.O.V. clear optics, good eye relief. Checked out one mounted on an AR at Que's gun Emporium in Park City, Ks. (my favorite gun shop) and it looked like it'd fill the bill. Good price, too.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 01:03:20 (ZULU)

If we run from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and al Qaeda we'll end up fighting them here. These fanatics are fighting to win. They want us dead or living as slaves. Open a history book.

This is real life, People. War has been declared on YOU. You can't just get bored and change the channel.

CDC'
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 01:31:11 (ZULU)

I brought a Mini-30 home from a gunshow. Being a lefty it works a lot better than the AR and slightly better than an SKS. It has the intergal Ruger mounts. One little problem, ol' Bill (Ruger) thought us civilians had no use for over 10 rounds, so who makes a dependable aftermarket 20-30 round mag for this little sucker or will I be buying a pickup load of 10 round mags?

George
boomtown, T N, - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 02:28:33 (ZULU)

Over on AR15.com there is a discussion in the Reloading section about case sizing lubricants. Some people swear by One Shot, some people swear at it! So just to stimulate a little debate:

What case sizing lub do you use, WHY, and is anyone using a "Home Brew"?? If you are using a Home Brew what is the mix and what ingredients??

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 02:54:32 (ZULU)

I think maybe we need to rethink the idea that AQ will have a field day with us if we get out of Iraq. They already would be here if they had the means and they only managed one strike from the shadows due to our own lack of vigil. They would float a 50 megaton bomb into New York Harbor if they could and will whether or not we win in Iraq. One reason we are so easy is because we are stretched out all over the world supposedly protecting freedom and the American ideals and bankrupting ourselves trying to buy peoples hearts and minds. (We need to think just where is this working and what is the financial return on our investment for all this effort.) We have the means to launch a stealth bomber from Missouri and take out any piss ant dictator or any system we wish anywhere in the world and the crew will have breakfast with their family the next day. We have the means to turn any piss ant country into glass that tries to do us real harm on a grand scale and the protection to intercept and destroy anything they throw at us as well as we would have if we happened to bring Iraq out brand of democracy. Just what are the odds they will take over Missouri if we say to hell with it and close the cannon ports and raise the drawbridge. Just what is it about Iraq that's protecting us here? The only weapon AQ has is oil and hate. We can take the oil if we want it and the hate has always been there and always will be as strong as they can muster. IN THE WORDS OF A GREAT AMERICAN "BRING IT ON!"

We have more to fear from our Borders and our own stupidity than from our declared enemies. Compared to Hitler and the Russians or even the invading hordes these Rags are minor on the scale.

Brogers
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 02:58:58 (ZULU)

The U. S. has a 'problem' with "Manifest Destiny."

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 03:53:32 (ZULU)

Bill: rethink this:

AQ hasn't hit us lately due to several factors, none of which stands alone.

First, we are in their backyard jumping their asses whenever they stick up their heads, and the Iraq thing is hugely important--to AQ, at any rate. Ya see, if we do succeed in our stated objective, the game is up for easy recruitment for Jihad, and the little prosperity thing that comes with open government kinda changes the argument against their objectives. We are targeting these asshats in five countries, and zapping them as fast as we can find them. PI, IZ, A-stan, Balkans, Somalia, Yemen, yeah--make that six. Direst action is a mutha for conducting strategic ops; it forces you to be tactical. A plus for our homeland.

So, the second reason they ain't attacking us here is they are busy trying to get us to come back here from there---out of Iraq. That is their numba one priority. A-stan is their back yard---Iraq is their achilles heel--and they know it even if you do not. A bonus is a ready-made training base if we pull out, complete with revenue sources that don't require middleman smugglers (opium). Their big threat analysis places all effort to Iraq, not the homeland. Another plus.

Third reason is we have made overall security and especially travel a bit harder--esp. with the terror list for air travel. It may make the news with an occasional innocent (mostly?) dude getting tagged---but overall, it is still not a bad list. It came from computer records and transcripts captured in the stan at the camps. It put a hurting on AQ mobility. Security is also ratched up across the board. Money is the weakness, and you have to be out of the loop entirely not to see the connection with any of the recent busts. I know how we got this data--not by briefing--but simply by knowing what is out there and imagination. Good stuff. For all the brow beating we do over how we suck at this or that---think about it for a minute---we ain't always stupid, now are we??? Security, tagging travel and cash movement--is working pretty good so far. So, tag us as morons and wasteful on security all you want, but the bottom line is our homeland is not under attack this morning, now is it? A plus.

Fourth: Pakistan, where they found refuge, is still not set up to recruit and train...yet. So new faces and names are slow to get into the AQ system to circumvent the aforementioned list, and they ain't figured out how to get sufficient cash in without using transfers yet. Old school customs makes carrying it a bad idea...their disorganization and divided effort between survival and preventing a democracy in their midst is a huge plus.

The reasons within the reasons come back to Iraq: This is a strategic problem, and we aren't looking at it as such when we think we can walk away unscathed.

Don't sell the rags short. I have seen them, lived with them, and studied their religion at some length. The little difference you may use to dismiss them is their strength: they have a culture of looking at things generationally and their tactics...slow, plodding, a little here a little there, all look like small potatoes to those who live in the moment--like us in the west. But, when you can set the stage for your grandson's grandson to take the bigger steps---you have an advantage that we cannot even fathom. Their current tactics match heir strength to our weakness, and we reinforce our failure. Hell, we were still firing generals in 1945--and we haven't yet fired one this time around. They sense momentum, and if we pull out, all hell will come home.

Bill, you are like so many in the country in trying to dismiss this threat. It isn't what it seems today. It is what it will be tomorrow. That is how to look at our new enemy. Where will they be in ten years? twenty? Fifty? They plan a long horizon, my friends. We can't see past the fourth of july, if that far. Look at the intimidation going on in Islam even now. The moderate voices are tossed out of the mosques, right here in the USA. To challenge the finality of the prophet is to commit apostacy; a death sentence. So even if you have qualms about terror, as a Muslim, you keep your ass shut tight. The finality of this guy, BTW, is the pillar that leads to the world domination thing. It is backed up by each chapter of the Qu'ran too.

And they are right. It will work. The few of us who undestand the long term nature of this threat sound like shrill alarmists in the night to most reasonable folks of the modern western lifestyle. We will whistle past our graveyard until these asshats shove us right in our grave. They know it, and we are talking ourselves right into their predictions as we sit here.

Joe M
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 04:06:45 (ZULU)

re: resizing lubes

I'm using the RCBS Case Slick (was aerosol, now pump). I was impressed with the lubricity numbers in the advertising copy.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/64166-8203-1661.html

I was previously using the Imperial Sizing Wax, but I had some issues with case dents because I was occasionally too generous with application.

With the RCBS Case Slick, I'm using Stalwart lube racks that permit me to evenly spray a bunch of cases at once. (40 .223 Rem, 25 .308 Win at a time). (spray one side, rotate, spray other side).

http://www.precisionreloading.com/luberack.htm

I use dry corn cob in a tumbler to remove the lube after resizing.

I use the Redding carbide buttons for the necks, so I don't need to worry about lubing inside the case necks.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 04:36:38 (ZULU)

Where and when was it proven that the WTC attack of 9/11/2001 had any direct links to Iraq and/or Saddam Hussein? I'd just like to know some facts, from those who link Iraq and the WTC together.

It is my strong belief that the situation in Iraq as it stands today is more threatining to the stability and security of the Middle-East than it was before we invaded, and it will become much,much worse when we pull out of the mess that we created over there. And we will pull out, sooner than later. Mark my words.

And please, PLEASE do not make the ass-u-mption that just because I predict dire consequences for the way we have handled our incursion into Iraq that I want us to fail there. Do not make the mistake of thinking that I want to see us pull out in defeat. Unfortunately I see victory as being too late because of the way our leaders handled the situation from the begining and I don't think that there's any saving it now. We are losing over there due to the actions of some of our own citizens right here in this country combined with an administration who from the beginning has had no idea how to prosecute this war. It's the very same way that we lost in Vietnam. It was a war of wills, and we lost!

I don't want us to pull out in defeat with our tails between our legs, but I see it happening. God, I hope that I'm wrong and would be overjoyed to have to admit my mistake right here on the DR.

Don't shoot the messenger!

ALAN

Alan
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 04:44:48 (ZULU)

Imperial Sizing Wax (used sparingly)

Very easy to apply.

Water soluble so it wipes right off with a damp cloth.

Works damn good.

Lasts forever.

What else could you ask for?

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 05:12:15 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Thanks for that last post. Very informative. I spent six years flying to the middle east taking stuff to the troops. I got a peek at the region and learned a little about their customs and religion. I think this mess started even before the Gulf War. I think it started with Khomeni back in the early 70s.

You should write a book.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
KY, USA - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 06:49:10 (ZULU)

George,

I've been told, but haven't tried, PMI mags are supposed to be the good ones. In my mini-14, I'm using the polymer (see through plastic) Eagle mags.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 09:14:50 (ZULU)

DUMAN

E-Mail inbound (scope)

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, February 2, 2007, at 11:28:42 (ZULU)

Alan: I have not heard one single reliable source tag saddam with 9/11. I have heard the loonie left squalking that shit; and with alldue respect, dude--you sound like a democrat in that post:))

Here is the esoteric link (that elludes leftists): Al Qaeda makes a great living recruiting adherents from repressive regimes. In Saudi, if you ain't royal or in line to be an immam--you are shit. Look at the hijackers--Saudi was well represented, eh? In short, wahabism iyself is a "peasant movement" in the middle east. Those with no chance for a university are targeted by these schools for another kind of indoctrination. The Despotic regimes of a few haves and many, many have-nots are fertile ground for radicalism. By trying to undo that systemic problem in Iraq, we have a chance to plant a seed----on the long horizon multi-generational view--that will undermine radicalism by severing the appeal with the peasantry (by making them middleclass). So, AQ (now, and in force) is in Iraq precisely because they understand this effect even as most here do not. Hell, you wanna quibble about reasons for taking Saddam down as if that will somehow change the fact that we are there now whether we like it or not. In other words---too late to bitch over "why" now, eh? We are committed to the fight. The only question remaining is "what next?" Leave how we got here to the historians....what is important is what we do next. Worry about that some, will ya????

Now:

Name one CIA, DIA, State DoD, or NCA (or any in the administration)official that said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 outside of some very specific intel in Germany===which never was used, BTW, to justify the invasion. I'd also like the quote or at least a close paraphrase. Note: I excluded Harry Reid, Nacy Pelosi, John Kerry, Russ Fiengold and Ted Kennedy from this list---as these asshats are the only ones making that assertion as they spew the Bush lied, people died BS. Now, the 9/11 report shows some inconclusive links of low-level interaction between AQ and Iraq, to include members of the 9/11 cell. But NOBODY ever said that was a reason for war, except the moonbats on the left as they attempt to cloud the issue. Now we seem top foget about a dozen UN resolutions or Clinton's "Regime Change" policy adopted in the 90s. Those were cited, by all---yet these reasons seem to be ignored by our moonbats. They prefer to lie about a lie, whcih makes the whole thing that much less palatable by those who refuse to stay informed.

They are making Goebels proud with their success to frame the argument against Iraq. The morons deserve what they get if they pull it off.

I get so sick hearing this shit...AQ was not the reason we invaded Iraq. Aq is there now opposing us...and for a very good reason. The only people who say we invaded due to AQ or 9/11 are those trying to get us out of Iraq. And, it appears, they are succeeding with this BS.

Joe M
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 12:56:15 (ZULU)

Retreat to US borders, let the Jihadis have the rest of the World and pay $200+ for oil, huh?

E1 for life.

Iraqi involvement in 911 is a strawman. Bush never said nor implied it.

"I am gross and perverted

Im obsessed n deranged

I have existed for years

But very little had changed

I am the tool of the government

And industry too

For I am destined to rule

And regulate you

I may be vile and pernicious

But you cant look away

I make you think Im delicious

With the stuff that I say

I am the best you can get

Have you guessed me yet?

I am the slime oozin out

From your tv set

You will obey me while I lead you

And eat the garbage that I feed you

Until the day that we dont need you

Dont got for help...no one will heed you

Your mind is totally controlled

It has been stuffed into my mold

And you will do as you are told

Until the rights to you are sold

Thats right, folks..

Dont touch that dial

Well, I am the slime from your video

Oozin along on your livinroom floor

I am the slime from your video

Cant stop the slime, people, lookit me go"

"I am the slime"___________Frank Zappa

CDC'
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 14:22:40 (ZULU)

Howdy,

Doug: Don't talk bad about my Sporty's. I just bought a new one (have 2) they can be a pain though. Especially starting on a cold day! That back fire is damn loud.

Joe M: Nope went in weighing 205, yeah we got 2 MREs (new ones taste much better, but 1/2 the calories) 87? I think I dug up a pair of your boots and one of your 5 fingers of death MREs.

I put most of it back on when I got recycled in Fl. They let us drink everynight. And drink I did! did they have a BEER EX back then? Oh yeah... a nice cold one the night after you get back from the field in Fl. Oh so nice!!

I'm set for a sniper MTT that's comming up in Mar. any of you guys coming out for that one?

I've thought about the long tab, haven't decided yet. I have 1 yr before the CPT board, so I have a little time to decide.

ESSAYONS! There's nothing more satisfying then watching the pressure wave coming at you when you set off a 400 lb cratering charge!

Charles H: Let me ask some people (orig. from SA) about hunting areas.

Mayhem

RLTW

SCTW

Mayhem
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 14:35:16 (ZULU)

Joe; I would never argue the affairs of Iraq with someone who has spent so much time there as you have. But...Don't read defeatism into my posts. I advocated tearing the hell of the enemies strongholds like Iraq from the beginning (see my archive derived post from about a month ago) and still do but using LA SWAT tactics to kick down doors was a mistake and I knew it the first time I saw it happening. My cave man approach is to tear the enemy a new ass from afar (sniper mentality I guess) so that he knows that his terrorism will cost him more than it's worth and if he insists with his foolishness.

What seems to evade the civilized mind is the fact that the only way to defeat terrorists is to tear up the things they hold dearest like their own Churchs and Civilian populations so that the losses outweigh the gains. Now in plain language that means you hurt em where they hurt. Anyone who will blow themselves up to hurt you doesn't fear for their own safety but if Alah looses he might be angered if you do something to cause it. Our great fear of pissing these people off is wasted because they are already pissed and they are doing whatever they can since the British left the first time.

Apparently the Jews needed instructions in the dealing with these same terrorists 3000 years ago even before they were Moslems. The instructions of the old Bible (I'm not a Bible thumper by the way) that specify to conquer the enemy you Kill him, steal his women and small children and burn his cities and crops! It has been known a long time how to deal with those who want to kill you because you don't agree with them. If we had leveled the place before we started winning hearts and minds the task would have been over long ago. But when you unload building materials before you secure the airport you are pissing in your pocket. There are plenty of places in the world to train terror organizations, like say Venezula or Cuba. That is the least of our worries. They can train them in Idaho or Oregon if they choose and probably are if the truth be known or Kansas for that matter. We have wide open borders and too much sympathy for political correctness to control anything. That's what I mean when I say circle the wagons. Alan (excuse me for using your name here) and I were practically drummed off SC for saying the N word when we started this fiasco by Military & G types herein who thought Iraq was a cake walk. (you were not one of them Joe). Anyway I just wanted to clear that up and I apologize for bringing up a politically sensitive subject but this is serious business and far more important than somebodys rifle group size in this damn world of today in my book at least.

Brogers
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 14:54:51 (ZULU)

Bill Bledsoe; I think you might even consult the book of Revelations in the Christian Bible for a closer date to when this stuff started.

Kings of Babylon come to mind.

Brogers
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 15:01:22 (ZULU)

Alan: I agree with most of your post---the opening on AQ-9/11 brought on my comment. reading it, it sounds a bit harsh though....did not mean that against you---my anger is against the dishonest Pols who peddle that story line.

CDC: Holy Cow!!!! Zappa is a genius...I miss his social commentary thru tunes;

"Dreamed I was an eskimo

Frozen wind began to blow

Under my boots and around my toes

The frost that bit the ground below

It was a hundred degrees below zero..."

Yeah, it is freakin' cold here. I was on my way to becoming a dental floss tycoon when the cold snap hit. The pygmie ponies are fine though:))

Zappa country...heheheheh.

Joe M
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 15:01:57 (ZULU)

Mayhem

I'm talking back when you had to retard the magneto to start it. I think they have electronic spark now. Mine used to puke oil from the overflow tube in front of the generator. And if you didn't retard the mag, you'd get a nasty kickback. I used to have to deal with that in the middle of winter going to high school. I paid $1,583 back in 1969. When I first bought it... man that was a magical day, I was 16 and saved every penny for it. Started great when it was new.

I had one of those XRs at one point. Now that is a sportster! It didn't even start to breathe until about 90 mph.

doug sickels
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 15:21:09 (ZULU)

Joe,

I think you and Alan are on the same page on this. I agree with him when he says this is going by the way of Vietnam. I just feel it in my bones too.

When Obama is wanting to cap the number of troops deployed, pease protests, it rings of Vietnam all over again. This country doesn't have the guts for the fight your talking about. We have the best army in the world and we piss them away with political correctness. We are rotting away at the core. We are a "ME,ME" society. Whats in it for me or lets do this as long as it doesn't affect "ME".

I for one don't have any answers. Its like watching a runaway train, you know its going to crash, but how do you stop it. We need to clean out our whole rotten political system. I think the first step is to put term limits on these professional politions. Two 4 year terms MAX and have elections every two years so you rotate new people in with experienced ones. I love your posts and respect your opinion to the fullest. Keep posting your thoughts and ideas!!

Pat
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 15:34:29 (ZULU)

Mayhem: The shock wave looks good moving laterally--it is round though, and I did not see the part coming at me the first time I made a big one (gas enhanced/ C4). It knocked me on my ass like a fist from hell. Recently, I got one from a 2K TGM with the same laterally visible wave. I remembered, though it still rang my bell hard. Explosives are fun:))

Bill: I am of the mind to nuke Medina out of hand, and list demands to be met in 96 hours---or Mecca gets hit. The more we get "cute"--the further we get away from Clauswitcz. Total war is upon us; yet we still insist on fighting with both hands tied behind our back.

What we failed to learn 40 yers ago is that we have a soft underbelly that likes to expose itself over time during war. Our mistake was to "limit" ourselves in the intitial raid. Invasion my ass; We raided Baghdad. 3d ID commander almost got relieved by Franks for mentioning the possibility of insurgency by bypassing all the mercs saddam hired. Frankas though him too cautious and that he was moving too slowly north due to his "fears." Dude was exactly right. 3d Army GO intervened to save him. The slow movement, BTW, was due to a total failure in logistics planning at the strategic level. Now there's a book I'll write; the 3d ID ran out of gas and ammo in the face of the enemy. Only the Iraqis fear prevented a disaster.

Honestly, I thought the idea of invading was not smart by a year or two in the very begining. It left me cold how we went about this. But, as a practical mil-type; once the battle is joined, I cast aside doubts and deal with it. My ideas on taking down Iraq would have followed a more practical approach. I would have seeded the country with dissent. Recruit baathists to a democratic Iraq--yes, bad guys and bribes; and perhaps a mere demonstration on the Kuwaiti border would have done the job once the regime was undermined. The rush to invade was bizarre to me. Amateurish use of force combined with an ethnocentric optimism of how things will go. I fully understood why we stopped at Basra the first time. The reasons had not been altered in the dozen intervening years; yet we just forgot the once-understood problems and bulled ahead. I knew it would be a slog from the get-go. I also knew that we were setting the stage for a insurgency (I was hardly alone)...and when it began, I was amazed at my senior leader's resistance to accepting that fact. I mean, WTF??? Why deny the obvious? Just because it doesn't fit with your idea of how the war should go? Since when did any plan survive contact??? Amateurish from 06 levels and all the way to the top, with few exceptions (and those few were threatened with relief, or actually relieved). So certain were we of our ability to impose our will that we failed to note the changing circumstances. Utterly mind boggling to be there and witness it. Arrogance and ego--the bane of leadership. We've bred it thru clintoon's drawdown (as i diagramed here in the past)--and now we reap our rewards.

Did I ever mention the big pie fight I had with a COL over trucks? he needed them to clear some comfort items off the port and I needed them to resupply a few battalions that were BLACK on ammo. This fuckwad really thought he had a priority for some reason. Can you believe that??? Heehheh--I also knew that I could make haste by threatening him with bodily harm. By telling on me he got his ass in a sling. And I got his trucks...and a small ass-chewing for improper tactics. Such is the war and our senior leaders. My lattitude in Logistics came from the fact that I had a COL who was old-school excellent in his leadership. He let me run things, and covered my tracks when I bumped an ego or two. If we had just a handful more like that guy--we would have cleaned house long ago.

Retirement rocks. I can't find my razor...:))))

Edited to add:

Pat, we all agree (Alan, me, you, Bill)---we as a society under current management systems and media biases cannot win any war. I list out how we could, and usually tag a line on why we won't. My posts prior say as much at the ends. Winning is a decision...so is losing. One is far easier than the other...and the path of least resistance is the safest for our power hungry pols. It's too bad really; it will suck quickly once we quit the middle east.

At least we all get to say "told ya so" and, we are armed, eh? Who knows, it could be fun. I have a rally point for those too close to the target areas...

Joe M
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 15:43:02 (ZULU)

Joe, i remember! I even went back in the archives this morning and read some of your's and others observations. This think was a cluster fx from the beginning and I think every man jack knew it.

Brogers
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 15:53:16 (ZULU)

Joe M,

The opening paragraph in my post where I asked for a link between Saddam/Iraq and 9/11 was directed at those who answered my earlier post by stating that I shouldn't draw a parallel between the Vietnamese fiasco and our situation in Iraq because the Vietnamese didn't fly hijacked aircraft into the WTC. I still would like those folks to answer that question. That is what I meant in my question. Please don't confuse me with a Democrat :))

I've been reading the posts about the Middle Eastern situation here on the DR for years. The one certain thing that I've been able to take away from them is that there are a few folks here who seem to be getting all of their opinions from several discredited pundits and passing them off here as wisdom from above. Specific things that immediately come to mind are:

"The present Iranian government and the mullahs who control it are on very shaky ground because they have a strong middle class who will shortly overthrow them."

"The assassination of Lebanon's middle-of-the-road leader by Syrian backed elements will cause the people of Lebanon to revolt against their Syrian masters and kick them out of their country".

"The Iraqui people will throw off their religious hatred for each other as soon as they're exposed to American-style democracy".

"The people of Syria will overthrow Bashir when they see the effects of democracy and capitalism in Iraq".

HA! Folks, the situation is getting worse - not better!

I've heard these same pundits refered to here as being "smart" men whose words should be heeded. Yeah, and I've know some people who were revered for their "smartness" but couldn't drive an automobile in traffic or even tie their own shoelaces!

The only way that the people of the muslim countries are ever going to "come around" is if we step on their necks with a size twelve combat boot and pin them to the ground while holding a bayonet to their chests. Win their hearts and minds - hogwash!

These people only understand force and ruthless violence. The sooner we wake up to that fact the better off we'll be.

Unfortunately we are sleeping!

'yote bait,

"excuse me for using your name here"

What ever gave you the idea that you had to ask?

You can use my name anytime you want :)

ALAN

Alan
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 16:05:28 (ZULU)

Sorry Alan; I didn't want to direct you any flak!

From the SC Archives early on......our casualties were less than a 100 at this time.

"We need to waste Bagdad and any other strong hold of Sadamn's sympathizers if for no other reason to get the rest of the worlds' attention that we mean business in this terror war." " Unless the point is made in advance, (eg. Germany, Japan) where the population gives up in general due to mind changing events like having your capitol bombed to hell or a Nuclear Holocast it's going to be this way. There's enough sympathizers outside of Iraq to keep this thing going for another 2000 years. We should expect losses from now on until every reminant of this thinking is gone and that ain't gonna happen. I hope it works out but it's not likely that it will ever stop being a place for Small arms attacks and car bombs, I just don't see anything that will ever happen to stop that. How do you stop suicide bombers. A. You don't. "

From the SC archives. 3 years ago.

Brogers
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 17:44:22 (ZULU)

Where's your rally point Joe? I'm trying to secure my own "safe haven" now, it's going to be needed next 4 or 5 years. Like was said earlier, it's like a train thats gonna crash and there's nothing you can do about it. Just watch the details unfold and duck when the time comes.

I would however take great pleasure in seeing the mosques torched in the meantime.

Doug

doug sickels
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 19:32:23 (ZULU)

Joe,

I would be intrested in your rally point too. I come well equipted too!!(HA) I would be proud to follow you if you could use a nam vet who may be a tad slower than you young pups.

Pat
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 20:20:00 (ZULU)

The RP is about 70 minutes east of MSP, south of I94 by a dozen miles, 160 acres nestled in hill country. Main buildings sit in center of four square (40 acre squares)---access is 1/4 mile of gravel. Three wells, and springs/ marsh. 2/3 wooded. Range has benches to 500, prone placement to 800. (and 1000 if the wife isn't watching...). I don't want to put exact coordinates on the net.

Pat: Follow? I ain't going anywhere---at least not intitially. Better to hunker down and let Darwin do some of the easier work first.

Bill: That is cool; you should pull up old posts more often. That is some fascinating points --- I bet there are more back there! Some of us are too lazy to read archives, and the searchie tool is still buxticated (Lito's wording)

joe m
Friday, February 2, 2007, at 22:51:48 (ZULU)

Yep; I need a life. Hanging out here is fine, but living here is a bit much.

Just watched Brian Williams spin the news. To have read background on every major story in-depth already--it is easy to spot the agenda as they portray these same items (minus other inconvienient facts). The funny part is the denial of bias.

Too cold to shoot:((

Joe M
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 00:02:39 (ZULU)

"It appears we have appointed our worst generals to command forces, and our most gifted and brilliant to edit newspapers! In fact, I discovered by reading newspapers that these editor/geniuses plainly saw all my strategic defects from the start, yet failed to inform me until it was too late. Accordingly , I'm readily willing to yield my command to these obviously superior intellects, and I'll, in turn, do my best for the Cause by writing editorials - after the fact."__________Robert E. Lee

What American war was managed beter than this one? World War II?

Kasserine Pass, US troops firing on friendly Airborne drop at Sicily, Anzio (Hell, the entire Italian Campaign), Mark Clark, benching Patton, German attack on D-Day rehersal, D-Day bombing too deep, Point Du Loc fiasco, hedgerow super-fiasco, WRONG!!! tank design, Market Garden, Second Ardennes super-duper-fiasco, frontal attack on Wermacht "Bulge" (I still shake my head over that one), ....

We're just skimming the surface.

Monday I'll post what the losing Superbowl team should have done.

This is fucking EASY!!!!!!!!!

600 Ghurkas?? WTF??

CDC'
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 01:02:07 (ZULU)

This is war. This is it. This is the easiest war in world history. It doesn't get any better. If we run, we lose. We'll pay tribute to al Qa'eda and Iran in the form of $200 oil. They'll use the $$$ as a weapon against us.

No, we're not "there yet". We'll get there when we get there.

If you're bored, change the channel.

CDC'
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 01:38:46 (ZULU)

Brodgers,

600 Gurkhas? You want 600 pickles covering your rear? :8-o

Duman
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 02:08:41 (ZULU)

Gents,

Did you guys see this crap about the planned war protest on March 17?

http://answer.pephost.org/site/News2?abbr=ANS_&page=NewsArticle&id=8107

Several Vietnam Veteran Groups fear that the protesters plan to damage the Wall, and are trying to organize a protest of their own.

It just keeps on getting worse, and worser.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 02:14:52 (ZULU)

Oh Shit, Oh Dear!

I am in love:

The H-D Sportster 1200 Nightster

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/2007_Motorcycles/dwp_2007_motorcycles.jsp?locale=en_US&dwp_dealerid=60175&dwp_pg=nb_landing&dwp_ps=wide

In Olive Pearl Denim/Black of course.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 03:41:20 (ZULU)

doug sickels"

Wanna talk about some nasty kickback...

Try not retarding the spark on an old 74.

Can you say 'Launch'?

Joe M., Mayhem:

Gotta respect that pressure wave. ;-)

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 05:11:45 (ZULU)

Dewman...

>"600 Gurkhas? You want 600 pickles covering your rear? :8-o"<

No dummy - that's gherkins ;))

The H-D Sportster 1200 Nightsters???

Nobody can accuse this bunch of having no class - we just gots no money :(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 05:50:42 (ZULU)

Weapon lights- played with the equipment the other night and learned a few things.

1. The TLR won't stay in place by spring tension alone, you need to snug the clamp knob.

2. The light is much "whiter" and reaches further than my Nitrolon Surefire. Maybe the guys on the other board were referring to older technology? At CQB ranges, the beam of the LED appears "softer" which might be another reason for the claim. There's a real bright and smaller center to the beam and what looks like much wider scatter. This doesn't seem to be the case in the great outdoors.

3. Screw the various flashlight techniques, this system rocks! You should still practice the others in case your mounted light FTF, but it shouldn't be your primary system.

Getting rid of incompetant command seems to have been a problem almost from the dawn of time.

What's the deal with 600 Ghurkas?

WR Moore
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 14:27:34 (ZULU)

WR Moore: It's "Gherkins" we have covering our backs, and there are a lot more than 600 of them. Some are in Congress.

CDC'
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 14:37:39 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"It's "Gherkins" we have covering our backs, and there are a lot more than 600 of them. Some are in Congress."<

Great way to start the morning.

Pat (HA!)...

Is the 6mm-47 the same as the 6mm Swiss Match?

Case water volumes...

I need the water volumes (in grains) of the following, if you guys can supply them - weigh the case empty, fill it with water to the top of the mouth, and weight again - give me the difference.

6mm-47

.243 Win

.243 Win AI

6mm Rem AI

Thanks.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 15:37:55 (ZULU)

I've had panheads back when, the thing is they were never as tempermental. Mine would pretty much always start no problems long as everthing else was right. I think the problem was the magneto on those sportsters, bad design or not enough spark.

JC, what part of Tenessee are you from?

Doug

doug sickels
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 17:26:56 (ZULU)

Lito: I googled around a bunch, and came up empty on the volumes (I thought for sure my "search within results" would yeild something). So, instead, I will be sending you an arctic air mass. Do whatever you want with it, just don't send it back:))

The Florida tornado thing has lessons that will be ignored because the scale is off against Katrina...but the "attitude" aspect is a valid comparison. A sheriff was on yesterday, and said (in response to a question aout high casualites) "No, I don't think we'll see that many deaths this time....these folks aren't sitting around waiting for the government to rescue them, you know..." Florida knows response plas. The state and local officials make all the difference, especially early on. Only a socialist, nanny-state dependant POS would think otherwise...

Ay least everyone here has a mindset that if bad happens, he is on his own for some period of time....and plans accordingly. Didn't that used to be called common sense???? well, it is nice to see that some folks still have it at community levels...

Shrillery....placating her base with a pledge to immediately withdraw if elected...

It may be worth watching, just for the morbid fascination to witness the aftermath from a safe place:))

Joe M
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 18:15:20 (ZULU)

Did anyone see this blog? A good friend sent it to me. Looks like it hasn't been touched by mainstream media. I wonder if it's BS or they are waiting for more source confirmation.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 18:34:47 (ZULU)

DAMN, anybody priced bullets recently! Just came back from looking around my local shop and 69gr MatchKings $17.00 a hundred, 175gr MatchKings $26.00 a hundred! I might have to go to 62gr generic and 168 gr generic that I can get for 62gr - $110.00 for 2K and 168gr $170 2K and that includes shipping! DAMN!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 18:49:38 (ZULU)

It seems the Vietnam war was a type of "Whack-a-Mole" operation, and now we're in a "Whack-a-Turban" mode. Logic, strategy, and proper execution of strategy always take a back seat to diplomacy and 'playing nice'.

Last week, my management spent over an hour 'coaching' me on that point. As one manager told me "It dooont matta tha ets a clooster feck...play noice". (read with Scottish accent).

Bleccchhhhh.....

Duman
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 18:54:25 (ZULU)

'Lito, and all,

I have a question,and a proposition for you all, if it will help.

I have nothing but time on my hands. So, with your latest question, is anyone interested in a chart of volumetric measurement of case capacity? I would be willing to do so, and make this a "building" chart.

I could do this not only with the different calibers, but also with the different brands of these calibers. I am not able to add much here, but would be willing to do this, if the interest and need is there. What do you think? How would you all like this to be done?

There are obviously cases that I don't have, and would appreciate some donations, to do so. These cases could be returned as well. Understand all, that I am not asking for "send me 1000 minimum, and I will do my magic", then you never hear from me again, like that other guy who ripped people off, from what I hear.

Just trying to offer something, that from what I understand, doesn't exist. Question is, should it? If so, I am willing to do so.

Sing out,

Sean Thomas
Winterpeg, where it is -35 right now, and gonna get colder tonight,, Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 19:31:15 (ZULU)

Sean: get crackin' dude!

'playing nice'

1. We surrounded Fallujah after the contractor episode. Rattled a mighty saber, and the "turned it over to the militia" as a gesture to the locals.

aftermath: The locals thought us to be the weak horse. We lost credibility. Zarqawi saved us by begining his campaign against the locals. Zero-sum gain; we made no progress (and time is always an enemy in our culture)--so it was really a defeat of sorts.

2. Had Al-Sadr in the crosshairs. Within 24 hours of killing or capturing. Bremmer and Abizaid decide that Sadr should be an Iraqi problem, and we would leave him to them (hands off policy).

aftermath: The SOB has aligned with Iran, thwarted Sastini's moderate approach (and marginalized him--our one best hope in the south), and invited Hezbollah into Najaf. He then built up his army, and assumed governmental-style control in many areas. Now, he heads a block in the parliment. Set back? Big-ass time!

3. Downplay our presence to minimize our "occupation" profile. Limited patrolling, smaller units assigned to larger areas, no-US zones (Sadr city for one).

Aftermath: Enemy has refuges that he uses to build strength and turn locals against us. We are seen as ineffectual, and we are back to the strong horse/ weak horse betting of local lives again. Who will they deal with in five years? Who will they support now? Yeah, the demonrats are making that choice easy too.

Helluva way to run a war...

The thing is, this isn't rocket science. There are principles of war that you cannot violate and still have a good day. We seem to think we can at some level. And boy are we ever in violation!

I'll follow Petraus some to see how he acts with Washington trying to tie his hands. He has the capacity to get'er done, and throw a Cav salute to DC. Now we'll see if he has the balls. He did once aready:))

Joe M
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 20:11:05 (ZULU)

'lito,

Not Pat (HA!) here, but maybe I can help 'splain -

There are several 6x47 cartridges around. The first (as you probably know) is the old benchrest cartridge made from necking the .222 Remington Magnum up to .24 caliber. Pretty much dead as a doornail these days.

The 6x47SM (Swiss Match) aka 6x47 Ruag is a cartridge developed primarily (IIRC) for European 300-meter competition and is an excellent design with extremely high quality brass available at high cost and limited supply from Switzerland. Case capacity is somewhere between the 6BR and the 6XC cartridges.

The other 6x47 cartridge should be more accurately called the 6mm-6.5x47 Lapua. The designation tells it all ;) That is the cartridge That I suggested in my post, and I'm pretty positive that it's also the one that Pat referred to.

Sean,

Which cases do you need?

Finger,

I read your link to that blog. Pretty scary. More'n likely our mainstream (read leftwing Democratic) media will choose to ignore it.

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 20:17:11 (ZULU)

ALAN...

The 6-47 Lapua and the 6-47 SM is what I recalled (in that rum soaked haze of a brain)... but when I went and looked for it, all I came up with was the SM, so I thought I was mistaken.

I've kinda narrowed it down the the .243 (with Lapua brass) or the 6mm-47 Lapua.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 3, 2007, at 23:02:20 (ZULU)

Sean,

I just had a disturbing thought about your proposition.

You're located in Canada, no?

Wouldn't there be a customs problem importing ammunition components - even empty cartridge cases - into Canada from the US?

I hope not, 'cause I think your suggestion is great and I'd love to see you do it. I could send you some cases that are not exactly run of the mill, if those stupid laws won't get in the way.

Probably a good idea to research it before some gov't LE official comes knocking on your door with your daily mail delivery.

ALAN

Alan
Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 04:18:10 (ZULU)

Alan: We could glue the cases to a piece of flat oak, and call it a vase. It's all about intent, eh? Hell, stick a daisey in it and remove any doubt:))

Hey Doc: I mailed ya a bolt from a M24 (verbotten in theater) with a memo signed by an O6 eh? Anything can be done with imagination. BTW, did ya keep that memo (a copy?)--that guy and I intertwined over many years. He started off as the west point roomie of the best BC I ever had--and the guy who, to this day, looked out for me (LTG-pentagon). He also played in an Op as the S3 air where my team was a runnin' from a fire storm in Idaho---had the hooks in the river waiting on our tired asses as we came down a ravine...and finally, as my top-cover on the IZ side of my last tour. Great guy...hit mandatory RTP and had to go last July. Typical; we move out the better to make way for the lesser. Oh, and yeah--he was a snake eater...I luck into the best shit sometimes.

All the noise in washington is a bad thing...and 24-hour news is NOT doing us any favors overseas. Even FNC is hurting us with the relentless coverage of all our warts. Our standing in the world's opinion isn't necessarily bad because of what we do--but is more a reflection of who we are--as seen daily in our tabloid-like news channels broadcast globally. We see it as good (we get the dirt, while seeing first-hand all the good that goes with it but misses the reporting). But consider that the coverage from A-Z is all that is seen of us overseas...it is easy to understand the disdain we receive, eh? Add to that the most of our very own media likes to see the USofA fall on its face---slanted reporting--and we wonder why the frogs arenot our friends???? The folks who set this stage say that Bush is the cause...but I know better.

22-friggin' below. Windchill south of forty...

Lito...it is heading your way. Ha.

My oak pile is drawing down faster than troops under a democrat administration.

Joe M
Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 05:16:03 (ZULU)

Doug Sickels:

Although it says 'Cordova' I'm actually in Memphis now. Got annexed the first of the year. That puts me in the most southwestern part of the state'

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 05:51:46 (ZULU)

Alan, et al.

I will check into how the Gestapo do their thing, whatever that is, of late. I do know that I specifically stopped at the "outpost" on our side, during a venture into Montana years ago. They looked it up for me. This was during the late 80's. I was officially informed that I could bring back (after being down there for 3 or more days) up to 200 empty cartridges, for ammunition. No limit on primers. Up to 20 pounds of powder. (More needed to have dangerous goods placards on the vehicle). OR, and I repeat OR, I could bring back up to 2,000 live rounds of ammunition.

Sure makes you feel real safe, eh? Knowing that "big-sister" is watching out for us, and preventing the possibility of us hurting ourselves. I sure am glad the real smarterest peoples are there, so that I don't have to hurt myself thinking of what to do when I wake up. Yawn, or Piss. It's so confusing.

So anyway, I will look into this. I have no intention of creating any issues for anyone whatsoever. Also know, that I have brought back a few interesting items in the past month or two. EVERYTHING LEGAL, LET ME MAKE THAT CLEAR. It is just that the items I brought back were of no issue to the Gestapo at all. Just as long as I showed the reciept, so that I can pay the Queen's Cowboys their due. For tea... That is why they call it Duty.

Stupid ridiculous question here, but do you all want these 'volumetric charts' measured with a bullet seated, and through the flash hole, or with a dead primer, (as in inverted cup) and filled like a glass.

I will not ask anyone to even run the risk of an edge of a law. I am more than interested in doing this, due to the fact that as I said, I can't move all that much, and have a lot of free time on my hands, so let me help out. Just come to a concensus as to what exactly you want done. Thing is, filling through the flash hole, on a seated bullet, with varying depth of seating is an issue.

Not a major one. Not at all. Just that I would then need to have a collection of bullets as well, to vary the differences.

Here's a thing that is bugging me. I am sure there are technical names for what I am talking about, but for the life of me, I cannot think of them right now. So, brass, well, I seem to remember some stuff, I think Federal, that I had/have, that is 'ballon' shaped. as in, the area between the wall, and the primer pocket, in the powder chamber, is empty. Not like the majority of brass, where it is solid. When you section a brass, you can see the "thin-ness" of the stuff. Well, doing the inverted test, with a seated bullet, would throw the munbers off, due to the "more area" above the flash hole. It is for this reason, that I was thinking of the dead primer cup seated backwards, and the brass standing upright, filled to the brim. The bullets could then be listed for displacement. This number would correlate to the seating depth, on a SAAMI spec length brass.

My apologies for probably sounding like a blathering idiot. This is why I want it declared exactly what is wanted, so then I can forge ahead in that venue. I just have it all spinning in my head.

Let me know guys, so that I can aim my focus. Any job worth doing, is worth doing well. I want to do this as goodest as I can. That is a technical term.

Blessings, and good night.

Sean Thomas
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 06:46:28 (ZULU)

Well...

... before creating an international incident (I got's enuff problems with courts to last two lifetimes), I was hoping that a few guys out there might have the info.

But as far as making a information base, "Load from a disk" (at $65) has the water volume of 1200 cases. Many are carts that most of you guys never heard of, so it's not worth starting a war between Canada and the USA to re-invent the wheel - we're still dealing with the leftovers of the war between the USA and Mexico.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 09:00:43 (ZULU)

It is against US law (ITAR rules) to export rifle or pistol cartridge casings or projectiles to a foreign country without the proper export paperwork.

There is no Canadian law specifically regulating import of rifle or pistol cartridge casings or projectiles from a foreign country. They do fall under general importation rules such as those for lead fishing sinkers or brass candlestick holders.

(I suspect our friends in SA or UK could lawfully send rifle cartridge cases to Canada w/o special export permits).

There is a US exemption for low quantities of personal use ammunition that will be used for hunting or competition usage in a foreign country.

"123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -

U.S. persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms

and not more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided that this is for the

person's exclusive use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e.,

firearms for use on hunting trips)."

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/itar_index.htm

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/docs/oas.pdf

http://www.sinclairintl.com/international_customers.html

Items requiring an Export Permit:

The US Customs Service requires an export permit for all orders that include bullets, brass, or rifle components (actions, triggers, trigger guard assemblies, barrels, stocks, firing pins, buttplates, etc.) being shipped from the United States. We must apply for and receive these export permits through The US Department of State. This takes approximately 6 weeks for approval. Previously, there was an exemption which allowed us to ship brass and bullets under 1,000 combined pieces. This exemption is no longer valid, and an export permit is now required for all components and quantities.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 13:11:47 (ZULU)

Joe M: "...most of our very own media likes to see the USofA fall on its face---slanted reporting--and we wonder why the frogs arenot our friends????"

"I Am The Slime" International.

Add to that the effects of 30 years of relentless, domestically produced, anti-American propaganda movies and it is no wonder that Zawhari sounds like Howard Dean.

CDC'
Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 14:10:13 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

The original memo went back with the bolt in case the postal police got picky. I did make a copy; but finding it may require a major miracle. ;o( Will drop it in the mail when it shows up. Your -22*F makes me feel like we're having a heat wave at 10*F. The shrinking woodpile problem is common around here too. May have to cut a couple more sticks today.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The frosty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 14:25:30 (ZULU)

All,

I am not trying to re-invent the wheel, or start a national incident. I obviously don't have the "load from a disk". Thank you 'Lito for bring up the fact that a database already exists.

I realize also, that some of my comments could have ruffled a few feathers. Gentlemen, understand my inflection. I have always, and I do mean always, had more trouble getting back into Canada than I have had, getting into the U.S. And not only that, but when I did stop on the way out, to ask what I can bring back, it is my opinion that the amounts were absolutely ridiculous. Only 200 empty brass, or up to 2,000 live rounds? Who comes up with this crap? To me, obviously someone who hasn't a clue what they are talking about.

My "Gestapo" comments are not for LE everywhere. Only here, in Canada. The reason being, whenever I have had interaction with LE, here in Canuckia, it seems that I/we are pulled over, or detained, for things like: I have no idea what you are doing wrong, but let me look around, search your vehicle, and I will find something. Whereas, in the US of A, LE leave us alone, to begin with. I have only ever been pulled over once, as a teenager in my fathers truck, and he was driving/speeding. Simple process, and we were sent on our merry way.

Rod, thank you for the update. I only had past experience to go on.

Any other dealings, at the border, or whatever, have been professional, respectful, and to the point.

Believe me, I have had numerous irrelevent dealings with the police, for no reason at all. I have no record. Not saying I was never caught, only saying that I try to do right, be a good person, and obey the law. It is the mindset, that I see, of LE here in Canada where we have no rights. Only privaleges. You down there have the Bill of Rights. Great. We don't. We have what they profess is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is a pretty piece of paper. Looks good on a wall, but doesn't really do much for an actual human being. Unless, "they" decide that something might apply to someone. Before my accident, in July of '04, I had been investigating the idea of moving to the US. I had found some possible employers whom were willing to hire and sponsor me. I had the world by the tail, in my thoughts. Now, with not being able to do my job, and with my head injuries preventing me from actually learning anything new, I don't know what I can do. I have practically no short term memory, as stated previously. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is, to not only know, but to have memories of actually doing something, that you can't do anymore. And not have any abilities to actually do anything else new, and viable, to be a contributing member of society, let alone, to progress myself through life.

I am still looking for a way, to use whatever knowlege I have from my past, to do something for the now, let alone for the future. This idea about the volumes came to me. There is already a database, so the point is pretty much moot. No problem there. I also respect you all here, and I have gleaned so much over the years, that I am still wanting to be able to actually contribute something back to ya'll. I feel guilty, cause all I seem to do is take. That is not my way of doing things. All I seem to have done so far, here, is to tell you all to drink more water. If it saves just one pecker, its worth it. Believe me.

To come here and step on toes, to re-invent the wheel, or to simply piss people off or create problems is absolutely not my intent.

Sorry for taking up the bandwidth. I will crawl back into my corner, and continue to "just exist".

God Bless You All,

out.

Sean Thomas
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 19:28:07 (ZULU)

Test...

Marius
Sunday, February 4, 2007, at 20:45:38 (ZULU)

The Redding S die with the TiN bushing and carbide button made very short work of 2,000 5.56 cases. Quick, slick and no case lube required. Thanks to those of you who recommended this set-up.

CDC'
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 09:55:29 (ZULU)

lito,

Alan explained it correctly. I was talking about the new Lapua 6.5x47 case necked down to a 6MM. Redding has the dies already for the case. It is very close to a 6mm swiss in size with the edge going to the 6.5x47.

From some testing done by different shooters and Lapua the 6.5x47 is shooting right with a 260 Remington pushing the 123 lapuas to 3000fps and the 140s in the high 2700 to 2800fps range. The accuracy has been outstanding in both the 6mm and the 6.5mm rounds.

I bellive the case capacity is about 3grs of water less than a 243 case but not real sure on that, I will check it out and get back to you. The 6mm-6.5x47 will push the 107s to 3000+fps with no problems so its an ideal sized case for the 6mm bullets. From most testing the best accuracy range for the 107s and 115s is in the 2900 to 3000fps range. Hope this helps!!

Pat
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 13:26:37 (ZULU)

Thanks, Pat.

I want to think this out, cus it'll be an expensive rebarrel job, and I hate that "I shudda gotta..." feeling, (not that I have ever made a mistake in getting the wrong stick. wrong caliber, or wrong barrel ;).

(Follow up)...

Pat (HA!).

I found an interesting thread:

http://www.securedsend.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33875

... and one of the guys was a top placer/winner at Hawk's Ridge (one of the major 1,000 BR ranges in this part of the country)... and he was winning with the 6mm Ackley. So I figure that the case can't be that bad.

And since I have a full set Redding Comp Bushing dies for the case, I decided to go with the 6mm Rem case - I just ordered 500 of the new Win cases before they are all gone. A buck 32 for 500 (thanks to a lurker ;)

Thanks for your feedback... I'll probably send the action out in a month to Packy for a 30" tube. Gotta find some green :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 14:04:43 (ZULU)

Citizen reporter tags along with Iraqi army. This is much better than have some TeeVee talking hairdo spin it. Click my name.

CDC'
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 14:35:45 (ZULU)

Howdy Yall,

Now that looks like a Sporty!! All thaqt sucker needs is a fine young Bavarian (female) and me sitting on it!!

My 91 Sporty didn't need to be retarded, it already was! But the pissing oil on contact still happens. Hey Harleys are supposed to leak, it is when it doesn't leak anymore that you have a problem!!

Joe: Pressure wave... Try 4lbs of C4 on a brick wall... 8 feet away behind a blast blanket! THat will ring your ears, knock you on your ass, and make you laugh at the Polocks who forgot their ear pro, and didn't tell you!

Not exactly correct stand off... but It works, The Infantry was in there in a heart beat!

The 2 Major Generals watching were pretty impressed though.

Anybody here in Germany know the fast track way to get your hunting permit? Still trying to get ahold of some weapons here, but time restrictions are killing me.

Anyone going to be in the Savanah Ga region next week? I'll be there for a few days. I'll also be in SA TX the following week if any of yall wants to throw a few back.

RLTW

SCTW

Mayhem

Mayhem
Dutchie-land - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 14:44:50 (ZULU)

I better just shut up about the Gurkas. But when you have Gurkas to your rear the only thing you see when you look back is Gurkas. over and out.

Brogers
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 15:07:25 (ZULU)

lito,

I made a mistake on my first post. The difference was between the volumes of my 6CX and 6.5x47 case not the 260 case.

I will give you the volumes of what I have listed for my stuff.

6.5x47 case = 47grs of water

6XC case = 50grs of water

260 case = 54grs of water

6MM case = 55.5grs of water

As much as I love my 6XC and my 260 I would go with a 6.5x47 or the 6mm-6.5x47 in a heartbeat if I was starting over again. The 6.5x47 case is just and overgrown 6BR case with a small primer pocket so you can push it harder.

If you want to push the 115s to 1000yds then I would recommend a larger case such as the 243 or one of the varriants floating around or the 6mm Remington case and use the H-1000 to push the 115s to 3000 to 3100fps.

If you want a real accurate varmint round to shoot out to 600yds or so go with the 6mm-6.5x47 or the 6XC with probably around a 1-9 twist and shoot the 70 to 85gr bullets at around 3500fps. You will love this cartridge its deadly accurate and recoil is like shooting a 22-250. Thats my thoughts on it anyway hope I didn't muddy the waters for you!!!!

Sarge,

I feel you pain!!! I checked on some Sierra bullets from a guy I bought from last summer and they went from $165 a thousand to $267 a thousand!!! I found some Lapua 139s for $185 a thousand and just bought 2000 of them. It just makes me sick to have to cut back on my shooting!!

Pat
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 15:23:37 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)

I added a follow up to my last post (go read it).

After more reading on this thing than I wanted to do, it turns out that all the cases in question are within 2 or 3 grains of water of each other, so it's really close.

I read a thread this morning and a guy shooting the 6mm rem (Ackley) was winning at Hawk's Ridge for a few years, so the cases can't be that bad.

And since I already have Redding Comp Bushing dies for the 6mm Rem, it makes sense to go with that. I would love to have Lapua cases for it, but for a 6x47, add $150 for new dies and $350 for 500 cases (that's $500) and that is something to add to the whole pot. Saving $500 on dies and cases (500 win 6mm cases are $132) does carry some weight... it pays for the damn barrel, and all I have to pay for is the fitting.

So that's the way I'll go with this one.

Thanks for your help.

'lito

(back to legal shit :(((

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 15:50:37 (ZULU)

Temp check guys,how cold you got and where?We had 20 below here in Minnesota.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 16:38:18 (ZULU)

Jon,

Temp. hit about 50 yesterday. It's 10AM right now and temp. is 32 in western Colorado.

ALAN

Alan
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 16:54:41 (ZULU)

Temp chk:

10F intermittent light snow in Halifax. Bottom end of regional norms.

(-12C for non-US residents :-)

http://weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/city/pages/ns-19_metric_e.html

Rod Regier
halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 17:04:13 (ZULU)

FWIT

Tom Ricks's Inbox

Washington Post - Sunday, February 4, 2007

This item, passed along by a retired Marine officer, reminds me of what professional soldiers talk about during their downtime. It is drawn from Military.com, a commercial Web site specializing in military affairs.

* * *

How Marines Feel About Their Gear

Military.com {vbar} January 23, 2007 (Editor's note: This piece was forwarded to the Military.com staff without attribution, which is usually a show-stopper for us, but it has such good detail that we wanted to share it with readers of Warfighter's Forum.)

1) The M-16 rifle: Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder-like sand over there. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. Marines like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round because of its poor penetration on the cinderblock structures common over there. Even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon), .223 cal. Drum-fed light machine gun: Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of junk. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly (not fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Thumbs neutral. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but Marines don't like the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: They've seen bad guys hit multiple times but continue to fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Thumbs up. The Marines use this weapon frequently for clearing houses with good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60: Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, and the most coveted weapon in theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody who is authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get his hands on one. With few exceptions, this weapon can reliably be expected to drop the enemy with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and grunts love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy, and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (they're actually stopping a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. A heavily modified Remington 700. Great performance. Snipers have been using heavily with great effect. Rumor has it that a Marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record with over 100 confirmed kills.

11) The newer body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as hell to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the B.S. about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love them. Invaluable for night urban operations.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 17:09:35 (ZULU)

'lito,

Why not the .243AI? Lapua .243 brass to fireform?

Les
Cold, CT, USA - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 18:30:00 (ZULU)

Mayhem: So it's a "who's dumber than who with explosives" contest, eh? I gotta warn ya--I will win:)) Try this one: Dynamic entry, hostage rescue scenarios. Did the shotgun thing (another story)--windows, rappels, all that. The brits had this cool stuff we dubbed Jet-X--has a million names, but is generally a pliable linear shape charge on a roll. So, I set a pre-taped placement on the locks and hinges of a door (four small chunks on a 30-sec fuze with det cord ring)--slap, pull and duck. We're stacked about 3 yards off, with plenty of body armor. I've got a whisper mic, ear protection, and support teams calling shots from up hill, plus, was number one in. At about 28.5 seconds a mortar round goes off just over the berm (another team's scenario adjacent to us)--and I bolt for the opening. As I turned to enter, my brain said "WTF is that door still doing...?" and I ended up on the lawn flat on my back with a splinter pinned center of my nose. Yeah, I ran right into my own smoldering charge placement, just in time to see the ring vaporize! Oh, and the 1-inch stuff is better suited for brick walls...P does equal plenty though, eh? If you persist, I will be forced to tell you about my double-switched timer rundown gas enhanced 500lb yeild bomb in downtown fayetteville. Had to pressurize the tank, ya know?

BTW: First guy in gets more shooting---and my team was trying to curtail my habitual hatred of the hostage. Early on, I would shoot him in cadence with all other targets:)) It took more concentration and "slowness" to segregate targets mentally and "decide" to shoot or not than I woulda ever guessed. It's funny, by slowing down and thinking---my times went down too. Took forever in my hyper young brain...I mean, with the "L" entry and the friendlies I came in with--who has time to worry about minor uniform differences in the center of the room?

So cold here they canceled school.

My scraggly beard was coated in ice yesterday as I stacked another two cords of wood in the truck bed and trailer. That's new to me! (anyone wanna come unload this shit???)

Truck tires froze the flat spot in and rattled down the road until they rounded out again.

Killed the expedition battery dead. Have to keep it on a trickle charge permanently.

Diesel-truck does fine with two freezer plugs, 60 watts under each battery, and 100 watts each on the engine oil pan and tranny. Of course, when I plug in, the lights go dim all over the neighborhood.

What sucks about this weather is the wind and the moisture in the air. Alaska was colder, but easier to live with.

Oh, and if you cut oak below zero--plan to buy a new chain for the saw! Frozen oak is harder than woodpecker lips!

Shooting???? Ohhellno! The wind blows from my targets to the bench lately. even from inside the garage, the wind gets ya!

Joe M
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 18:42:34 (ZULU)

'lito,

Just an FYI -

That "communication from Iraq" was going around the 'net over a year ago and was busted as a hoax. I first noticed it on the m14forum in the summer of '05 where it was quickly dispelled.

At different times it has been attributed to a Marine in the sandbox, the father of a soldier serving over there, and a friend of a soldier who had just returned to CONUS.

It's amusing, but not funny, how these things seem to make the rounds, usually in cycles. I received one identical to yours last week from someone who saw it on the mil.com 'site.

ALAN

Alan
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 19:02:23 (ZULU)

Les..

>"Why not the .243AI? Lapua .243 brass to fireform?"<

Cuz it would mean a new set of $150 dies, $150 extra in brass cost, and then cornmeal fireforming 500 pieces of brass - that's a chore and a half.

Whatever it was going to be, fire forming wasn't in the deal - been there and have the tee shite (covered in corn meal :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 19:14:12 (ZULU)

Finger; that thing is scary man! Besides being the only plausible explanation for those events. I'm diggin a hole.

Brogers
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 19:17:21 (ZULU)

That communication may be hoax but it's damn close to the truth. Every news reel I see from over there... there's more of our guys shooting AK's. I'm not gonna get in a donnybrook over weapons reliability but .....if you ever used a AR15 in this sandbox desert out here even... aw fergetabout it! Fix bayonets!

Brogers
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 19:23:13 (ZULU)

'yote bait,

This has been hashed over many times, but I just can't let your comment go without responding.

I've used all twelve of my AR's in this "sandbox desert" that stretches from a very few miles west of my doorstep all the way to Kommiefornia without any problems! And you'd better believe that my desert is bigger and sandier than yours ;))

Yeah, they've gotta be maintained, but our GI's are supposed to be instructed in that. No, you can't bury them in sand like an AK and expect them to shoot without a rudimentary cleaning.

But day in and day out, I'd choose the AR over the AK in a heartbeat.

Actual no bullshit reports coming out of both Afganistan and Iraq are quite contrary to these fake 'net myths that are authored by people with a bone to pick about something. Some of these after action reports have been linked to right here on the DR over the past few years.

When push comes to shove some folks are going to believe what they're predisposed to believe, so no matter.

ALAN

Alan
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 20:00:50 (ZULU)

Yote: The AKs were "issued" back when we were stripping tankers and arty troops off their equipment and patrolling them like infantry: It was stop-gap measure indicative of the shoe-string mentality we started with over there.

M4s: I had zero issues, no complaints. I liked them, in fact. Last time, I had a 20" upper to supplement my hand built M4. That shortie upper was "tight" as they can be with mil-spec shelf components (OK, so I also borrowed a SOPMOD barrel and an A1 trigger group, and selected everything from the theater stocks). The integral rail and modularity is a two-edged sword though--training on various snap-on sights has not kept up with development of the sights.

But then there's rack-grade ARs. Picture a weapon with sand in the barrel. Does it get soft rinsed out or does trooper just scrub it out with the carbon fouling??? Yep; and the regimine of "scrubbing" carbon build up on all surfaces can best be described as "abrasive." Extrapolate the wear and tear over twenty years for A2s and 10 years for M4s. BTW--I would and did use hot water in my guns. I also used compressed air and solvent to displace the water. Back then, I used to teach weapons cleaning to NCOs. It wasn't about spotless--it was about functionality. You'd be surprised how little knowledge there is out there---and how what passes for the common maintenance is destructive as hell.

The system is not bad. Training sucks bad though. My senior leaders would cringe, ring hands, and argue with me over how I went about it. Their point was that while I may know what I am doing---the average troop may not and would "ruin" the guns. My argument was simple: Then we just train them properly, eh? Cuz they sure as hell were destroying the weapons as it was...

And for the round---yeah, i had issues there until I met 77gr BHs. And really was happy when 75gr hornaday came along!

AKs are sloppy. And they rust like nobodies business in humidity (Iraq is hot and dry mostly, but...). The short round lacks punch at 300 and beyond---matching the energy of the standard 556, and slightly less than the heavies. But the 556s are flatter and faster out there--thus easier to make hits, esp in wind. The AKs sights suck donkey schlongs, and the adjustment tool is made of unobtainium. On the plus side, they are an idiot's guide to guns for the masses.

And, I had plenty of nice, new AKs at my disposal on the first tour (I never bothered on the second). I never thought twice about carrying one. We looked different enough already, and we traveled all over the place. Approaching a skittish checkpoint was pucker-factor ten as it was---carrying an AK on top of it all seems like a great way to meet Mr. Fratricide.

IMHO, an Ak is superior to any pistol or SMG; but the M4/M16 was better still. At least mine was.

Joe M
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 20:24:17 (ZULU)

In combat you cannot stop the game and dig out a stuck cartridge and expect to live through it. Even thought it can happen to anything ..... and everyone knows that all Combat weapons also need maintenence but not to maintain functionability from moment to moment. The M-16/AR-15 class are more accurate and lighter and aside from the miserable carry handle sights they are all in all a neat little rifle. The cartridge is light and effective to a least a percentage of larger ones. There were mistakes in VN with ammo and we all know that's been corrected and the many lives we lost in the sand hills behind China Beach and elsewhere are long forgotten by all but those who were there and those who found the bodies with their rifles torn apart in attempts to "maintain" them. The problem with this wonderful little piece is that it is not combat hardened. It has weight and accuracy advantages that work well in a target range competetion enviorment. But if I go to battle and what I shoot is all that's between me and the enemy. I just can't trust it and my hat's off and I apologize to all the affectionados in advance.

How can I be more humble? I love em but I won't fight with em!

Brogers
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 20:36:59 (ZULU)

Yote: I'm just giving you a different perspective. An AK does what it does, and works for whom it was designed to work for (ign'ant peasant conscripts). It did not fall into what i planned to accomplish, and the AR series does. The operating characteristics of my weapons systems played a part in how I maneuvered. I was able to move to an advantage due to the many system superiorities I had over the BG's systems. At 400 yards, the effectiveness of AK fire, and most RPG gunners falls off, where I would still have effective fires.

Who would want parity in a fight???

Joe M
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 20:46:40 (ZULU)

Joe M- Stihl makes a tungsten carbide tipped chain for folks like you:)) I considered one for cutting some oak I was stupid enough to let get seasoned.

Everything you're doing to your equipment boggles my mind. I went through 20 odd below some years back and didn't have to go to the extremes you are. For what it may be worth, there's an outfit called Canvas Craft that does winter fronts for vehicles. They're worth every penny-got one on our F-250 that cost about $20. Dunno what you're using for anit-gel, but I swear by what used to be Siloo fuel treatment. CRC bought them out, can't recall what they call it now....I've used it in Arctic conditions and never had a fuel gelling issue.

Volvo used to put what amounted to electric blankets in the battery boxes of their military vehicles. Shame no one does that here-or makes a retro fit kit. I don't care what some folks say, I've seen wind chill kill batteries.

WR Moore
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 21:14:17 (ZULU)

The weapons note below mentions Marines and M24s. Marines shoot M40s, now in the A3 version. Those are being converted to a detachable magazine system, using hardware from Badger Ordnance. The M24 is an Army weapon, now being replaced with SR25s.

Not mentioned in the report is the Mark 13 Mod 2 version built by Crane NSWC in .300 Win Mag for the A191 cartridge, which pushes a 190 SMK to the vicinity of 2900 fps. Mounted in an AI chassis system, with an extended rail to take an AN/PVS-22 UNS, it's a tack driver which hits like a mule.

It does a very nice job on cinder blocks, too. It's very popular with the folks who shoot it.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 21:37:03 (ZULU)

Lindy, besides you being correct on the weapons Marines use, If my memory serves me right, this e-mail is about 2 1/2 years old and was put under some scutiny when it rose back then.

I agree whet has been said about the AKs, but then again, who besides Marine infantry trains to shoot anything with iron sights past 300 yards? I carried an AK in two totally different AOs this decade, and they worked fine. Yeah, I liked my M4 too, but it performed best with Mk 262.

I hear a lot of guys wanting to go back to 7.62 over the 5.56. I guess that is ok. I like 7.62 also. But, I wonder how many of these young studs have humped it all day. Not in a Hummer or Bradley either, but foot moble. There is a big difference. Through all the fog, I do remember.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 22:19:03 (ZULU)

We might ought to also consider another perspective about the Ak series.

It really wasn't designed by its maker to be a cheap POS but more accurately it was designed to be a reliable combat weapon. fortunately for the ones that use it, it's cheap to build because it has fewer intricate parts. Did you ever assemble a AR-15 or M-16 from scratch? Those little balls and springs .... nuts. I know you've all cleaned them... pipe cleaners no less? Valmet and Galil models are far from cheap POS. If you look at a HK 91 you will see how a real weapon goes together with parts AND SIGHTS that don't fall apart rust up or crumble in combat extreme conditions. Even the FAL (I don't see why I say "even") is far superior except for weight.

Oh well, Go to a combat situation where all guns are subject to BS conditions and you'll have a hell of time trading an AR or M-16 for anything else. HK's were sought after and even AK-47s in South American operations where AR's were considered toys and rusted overnnight. I ain't been to Iraq. When you fight an enemy that lets Allah aim his weapons you don't get a lot of accuracy out of anything. This ain't combat but we had military rifle shoots out to 500 out here with no rules except it had to be military and sights had to be non magnifying. Chinese SKS's won every SOB at every range. So go figure. I saw a situation (purported to be documeneted true)that brought back old fears on History Channel the other night (shootout episode) 4 guys with 3 M-16s and a SAW before it was over the SAW was the only functional weapon. shudder to think about being caught out in a ambush with only one of those things.

Brogers
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 22:25:18 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

Wind chill killing batteries? You'd better believe it :)

Many people don't understand that the wet cell battery commonly found in automobile and truck applications is at it's peak in both power and duration at about 60 degrees F and starts going south in either temperature direction, but faster in the cold.

Battery blankets work well in cold weather, as does a trickle charger. Not only does a trickle charger maintain the charge but it also keeps a battery warm by virtue of the heat that charging a battery produces. The Aspen PD used to use Saabs for patrol cars which were equipped with battery blankets but still had to keep them on a trickle charger in periods of extreme cold due to the heavy loads put on their electrical systems by the constant use of lights, heaters, rear defrosters, communication equipment, etc.

These days, the best bet in a battery for extreme temperatures is one of the spiral cell gel-filled models like the Optima. I put one in my wifes car and one in my pickup a couple of years ago. Combined with synthetic motor oil for easy cranking I never have starting problems in sub-zero weather.

Jk,

Latest temperature report - it's 54 degrees F and sunny here on the western slope of the Colorado Rockies. Wonderful change from the sub-zero nights and the below freezing days that we've been having for the past couple of months. There might be a spring this year after all ;)

ALAN

Alan
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 22:27:32 (ZULU)

'yote bait,

Military rifle shoots out to 500 where the Chinese SKS took everything? Against what? Carcano's and Turkish Mausers? And with what kind of ammo?

We have a pretty decent military shoot at our club range at least once a year. As-issued only, or rack grade as in SA M1A's and SA M1's. Chinese SKS's? Sure they'll outshoot an AK, but what the hell does that prove? Bring that match winning SKS over here in the spring.

Are you trying to tell me that these SKS's beat the Swede's, Garand's, M1A's, 1903's, and Schmidt-Rubin's out to 500 yards? Yeah, right!

Who in the hell uses pipe cleaners to clean his AR15 or M16? Not recommended at all! Little balls and springs? You ain't got to take any of that stuff apart to do a field strip. And yeah, I've probably built hundreds of AR's, both civilian and LE. You ever build an AK? I didn't think so! Well I have! You talk trash about those balls and springs in a AR, well how about those trunions and rivets that hold an AK together? Huh? Galil's and Valmet's? They are built with higher quality materials and to higher standards, but they're still inaccurate rattle-traps!

H&K's? Overweight, uncormfortable, and inaccurate. FAL's? Kinda nice but won't shoot with an M14 or Garand. And both too damned expensive for a real one!

I didn't intend this to become a pie fight, but your passive-agressive way of posting combined with your throwing out inaccuracies can really piss me off!

ALAN

Alan
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 23:00:21 (ZULU)

Double tap!

ALAN

Alan
Monday, February 5, 2007, at 23:01:31 (ZULU)

Just a quick drive by here guys....

Wind chill DOES kill batteries. Anyone that's ever lived on a farm in WI can tell you that....never park into the wind in January/February if you can help it. It really does make a difference IMO. How does that work?

I worked outside all morning at work....it was -15 just before sunrise with variable winds 10-15mph. Don't know what that equates to in wind chill factor, and don't care. At that point, you are better off not knowing! But when your hands hurt through double layers of gloves and you have a thick layer of frost on your glasses within 15 minutes, you know it's damn cold.......

Cleaning the gun room over the weekend and making a component list so I can load for the season. I found a stash of brass given to me by a buddy with an M60. I'll need a small base die to resize. It's Cavim, various 80's and 90's. Anyone have experience with this brass? Worth it for handloading?

ETA: SKS rifle accuracy. I realize this is an anecdote, and that's OK! Back around 1993, I had a little contest with a buddy. 20 rounds on a B27 at 200 yards. I fired my Norinco SKS, as issued. He fired his Colt AR15A1 as issued. I won. Amazingly, I had all shots in a pie plate sized group on center mass. He had shots all over the paper...it looked like he was firing a shotgun.

Of course........he was firing M855...you gents will figure this one out. Hahahaha!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 23:04:10 (ZULU)

Alan, We had 5.56 Galils in Haiti. They were not all that reliable. I saw them as over-engineered AKs. The Chinese T-65s held up better. Those guys didn't PM very well, so POSs surfaced real quick. I can't comment on the Valmets.

My comments about 500 yd shooting refered to recurrent military training. I know you guys like to wring things out to their envelope. That is a good thing. We as shooters/snipers tend to forget the sloppy milspec accuracy standards for infantry rifles.

off my box...

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, February 5, 2007, at 23:25:47 (ZULU)

While back I asked about loads for M2AP boolits in the 7.62X51. Not hearing anything back from the rosterfarians, I went ahead, held my breath and loaded some up. May be a bit unimpressive, and, as they say, your results may vary, but: WWcase, WWprimer, 44g.Varget gets 2550 out of a 20" FN SPR. Could probably push 'em a bit faster, but not with Varget...as I said, the M2 is Looong for its weight, and 44 gr. is, shall we say, well compressed.

The velocity variation was low (SD of 10), but there was verticle stringing....still under 1.5 moa @ 200yds. These projectiles were pulled, with what looked like pliers (3 heavy "divots" on two sides), but pretty sure 1.5 moa equates to Minute of most any machinery out to fairly long range...not meant to be a 400yd. 'yote load (the 155 Hornaday AMax is for that).

On the "battle rifle" piefight...said it once and will say it again... for field supported operations, most anything will work... so long as the soldier has the "rear area" to clean/maintain the stick. For savages that don't know one end of a cleaning rod from the other, the AK may pretty much "go bang" every time, but for "single-resource" soldering and no "backup logistics", firepower isn't much of an issue (one-man suppressive fire is pretty kinda' an oxymoron). Distance and accuracy are where survival starts, with a weapon that's weatherproof and field-maintainable. My "T-forgery) Enfield Mk IV with its PacNor barrel, custom scope mount and IOR 4X scope is what I'd take to "war" if I had to support myself in the boonies for months (years?)....not that there'd ever be a need :). Downside is that there probably wouldn't be much 303 ammo left layin' round the battlefield for ammo supply. Workee pretty good for the elks and deers here'bouts, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on moose either.

'Course, I kilt 3 deer this year with the AR15 carbine and 60g. Nosler partitions....all three under 75 yds, and all three "dead right there" with chest/heart shots.... in minus degree temps. (in case anyone in the "other states" was wondering...I had 5 deer tags...used the FN SPR on one...figgered 4 deer were at least equal to one elk)

Ducking and dodging now!

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 00:15:41 (ZULU)

Wind chill w/respect to batteries - well, kinda sorta.

It's just a function of the wind aiding in the removal of whatever residual heat a battery - or a person - might retain, by keeping cold air in contact with the surface.

As for Chinese SKS's outshooting everything else - my experience has been that the shooter makes a difference. Haven't heard, though, of many of the SKS's showing up at the National Matches...

It got up to 66 degrees here this afternoon. Went walking down the county road in a long sleeve shirt to cover up my Glock. Very pleasant. Red sky at sunset tonigt: sailor's delight - not that I'm going sailing tomorrow... :D

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 00:25:21 (ZULU)

Lindy, Some of us have to work tomorrow :(

Have a great day brother!

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 00:31:12 (ZULU)

Jim: we finished a class last week, and this is range maintenance week, with a 3-week block of classes starting next week. It's nice to have a bit of warmer weather.

My wife is making plans for a hot tub. Not many range facilities with those, I expect... :D

And, as the sun sets slowly over the kill house, we return you to your normal program. I hope you have fun tomorrow. S/F.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 00:41:05 (ZULU)

Nov of 04, when the Cav and Marines were destroying Fallujah, the whole country went shitty. We had ten days of straight up fighting, everyday. It was cold, and it rained. Pretty shitty all around. Anybody who knows about Iraq and MSR Tampa knows it's a giant mud pit on both sides, to the 2nd berm line anyways. The M16's and SAW kept working, the savages with their rusty AK's didn't. We killed them as often as we could. One of my teams had to break contact three times in one night. 20+ dead savages, best guesstimate, zero friendly casualties(5 man sniper team). They made it clear to Tampa, and the NG MP unit that showed up with thermals stated, "Fucking cool, look at all the bodies." or words to that effect. That TL got a Bronze Star, for this performance, among other things.

NOBODY in my platoon had any problems with the M16, aside from the fact that the cartridge is a weak sister when it comes to intermediate cover and M855 usually sucks regardless.

AK's are for conscripts. Is the M16 family the pinnacle? Nope, a gas piston version with a suppressor in 6.8SPC would be much better. But it's much better than a AK. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 01:07:28 (ZULU)

"...M-16/AR-15 class are more accurate and lighter and aside from the miserable carry handle sights..."??

I always liked that sight. Still do. In fact, I can't think of a stock battle carbine whose sights I prefer. HK-91 sights are a not my cup at all.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 01:09:38 (ZULU)

Ken M, we had a few agencies here this past year with 10" HK 416s with the gas piston. Like the gun, but like CDC, I am not a fan of the Diopter Sight. I even still have a tool from my MP5. Good thing, they didn't.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 01:24:47 (ZULU)

Iron sights are backups for when/if your optics break. HK sights suck. HK sucks. I hate HK, and their customer service sucks, for civvies anyways. You know their super duper mags puke their guts(disassemble) when you fire a 203 with an empty or near empty mag? Make sure you got the black rubber grommet mod(near the takedown fitting) if you use these mags.

I like the Leitner-Wise gas piston. Backward compatible with about 80% of M16 parts, to include the bolt and firing pin. I'm gonna buy one after I get off TAD here in a few monthes. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 02:04:20 (ZULU)

Gentleman,

We have beat this horse to death, but boy, is it fun beating that dead horse, so here goes. The following are just my opinions,based on antedotal rather than emphirical information:

I have carried M16s/M4s/ARs all over the world. Some on this roster have had more experience and certainly more recent experiences during the recent "unpleasanties". Yup, gotta maintain them. Yup, gotta keep them clean. Never felt under gunned or worried about if it would go bang. Sometimes a 7.62 would have been nice and I can see in Iraq with the cinder block and the vehicles in the AO, it would be nice to have, until you have to do CQB, or handle it in a Hummer, Styker, Bradley, Etc. If it is a choice between the AK or AR platform, AR wins everytime. As pointed out earlier, sights suck on AKs. Safety is not ergonomically placed at all, heats up quick, and I am not a huge fan of the round. That said, there is about four moving parts on them and you can beat someone to death with the bolt and it has laid millions of souls to rest. Something definately to be said for that. Also, plenty of them around. Quantity does have a quality all it own.

M1s and M14s over HK's and FALs? Once again, just my opion but the clearest advantage is the sights. The drum style rear sights on HKs is not my bag, baby. I don't know who thought up the opposing slot screw adjustments rear sight on FALs, but there has got to be a better way. Clearly, the M1/M14 sights seem better.

All that said, if it was all I could lay my hands on locally, if I could only get one tyep of weapon/mag/ammo and had a little time to zero/train/familiarize, I would carry whatever I could get my hands on or was issued...AR, AK, FAL, HK, M14, etc.

I apologize if I am rambling. My .02.

Pat II
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 03:07:26 (ZULU)

I'm still trying to figure out what Nepalese mercenaries can do that US light infantry can't and why the marginal capability of an understrength batallion of the little dudes would be critical in Iraq.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 03:09:14 (ZULU)

SKS (16") - Mine will hit a softball nine out of ten times at 100 yards. Not bad with crummy combloc ammo. I may have to try the 30 round mags they have out for them now. The full length, quality peep really helps with accurate fire.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/medicjim/gun%20projects%201_06/IMG_1544.jpg

Carbide chainsaw blades - We use em' for venting in the fire service. They help when cutting through nails, but for hard wood, a couple of aggressive regular steel blades will work out better than the carbide. It is simply inevitable that you touch dirt with either...instant dull, even carbide.

I run a wood stove all winter and cut it all myself. I run a stihl 048 with the green link aggressive blades and usually have three in the case and another three out getting sharpened at any given time. I keep a couple files with me too. It really doesn't take long to put a working edge back on a blade. I have an 020 for climbing too, but may be getting a bit too smart (er, I mean old) for that silliness now.

medicjim
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 03:12:31 (ZULU)

Geoff M,

M855 in a 1/12 twist barrel? You were cheating :)

SteveinButte,

You interested in an original No.4 MkI (T) with Mk2 scope and (rebuilt) wood carrying case? I'm selling one.

Ken M,

"HK sucks" +1 big time!

medicjim,

"I run a woodstove all winter and cut it all myself." You're a masochist :))

Actually, I did that for eight years straight. Never had the furnace pilot on in my house for all that time. But that was twenty years ago! I'm old now.

Finger,

Were those Galil's acquired from the Israeli's when they dropped them in favor of the M16? ;))

CDC,

A relatively small contingent of Gherkins left to fight a rear guard action against the insurgents might very well find themselves in a pickle ;))))

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 05:08:16 (ZULU)

Alan: Good one.

Gentlemen: Which priming tool(s) do you use and why?

CDC'
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 13:04:53 (ZULU)

"Finger,

Were those Galil's acquired from the Israeli's when they dropped them in favor of the M16? ;))"

Probably, We had a boat load of those worthless Uzis too.

My job was to teach markmanship and tactics. Crap like that don't help.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 13:09:45 (ZULU)

Thanks for your faith and support Gentlemen and your courteous rebutal while calling me a liar. You might ask yourself if you were there at that contest. Maybe I can get that trophy after all since I was shooting a match M1. Perhaps the exacts terms of the shoot... no that wouldn't have any affect would it?

Better to call a man a liar if it's something you don't want to hear!

Brogers
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 15:34:05 (ZULU)

Jim R. I am truly surprised you took a cheap shot at me like that. We both know that YOU know why the Israeli's adopted to the M-16.

Every man jack who reads this knows why! Did you ever fire a UZI?

Did it jam? Was it unreliable in anyway? hard to handle under Automatic fire? Or were you just enjoying the moment to kick the chicken with the bloody tail. Frankly I thought you were above such things. That rum in Haiti does funny things to man.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 15:42:27 (ZULU)

Alan; my old friend.... I didn't know you were at that mil rifle shoot in Guymon Oklahoma that weekend in 96. Had I known I would have bought your lunch. Surely you of all people would not call me a liar had you not been there and saw it some other way. You must have not been close to the stands when they handed out the 3 top prizes to those SKS shooters? Sorrry you don't like the way I post. Should I send them for you to edit before I push that final button?

Brogers
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 15:47:01 (ZULU)

CDC,

Priming tool country -

When I'm loading for accuracy (as opposed to loading for volume) I use one of the old Lee hand priming tools that I've had since the mid 1970's. It doesnt have any kind of feed or tray, just takes 'em one at a time, but I love the feel of it - the way I can feel the primer seat and can tell in an instant if the primer pocket in the case is a little oversize. But I don't think they make them anymore :(

When this one wears out (and it will) I'll probably replace it with one of those neat K&M hand tools. It's a well made piece that looks like it will last more than a lifetime, pn KMPST395 they go for about forty bucks. Other tools can be had cheaper, but I like this one.

http://www.precisionreloading.com/KMProducts.htm or click my name.

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 16:12:07 (ZULU)

medicjim:"I run a stihl 048 with the green link aggressive blades and usually have three in the case ....." Good info. I'm running an 036. Are the 'green link' blades a 'Stihl' product or another brand? My experience is that only Stihl blades will work on Stihl saws, but there may be something else out there.

ALAN:"A relatively small contingent of Gherkins .... might very well find themselves in a pickle ;))))" OUCH! Please, no more PUNishment!

Duman
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 16:40:29 (ZULU)

Chainsaw country (but he's got bud light...): I run a 4620 Troybuilt...odd bar arrangement and a PITA to find replacements, but strong-assed motor compared to my 50cc Husky (dawged out). I use a 0.050 gauge 78 chain...would the green link chain workie???

Yotie: SKS is accurate beyond expectations (read into that some). Stranger things have happened. I wasn't there either...and calling you out as a liar was, IMHO, bad form.

Uzis? Come'on; it is a nice, heavy pistol with a weak-assed charging handle that most won't break due to the fact they give up on it long before failure...:))

Youz guys should see my spine Xray for the VA...parachuting makes you shorter. Or, at least the left leg:))

Joe M
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 17:06:32 (ZULU)

Two evolutions ago, a couple of binkies on my crew (including the SFC in charge)were extolling the virtues of the mythical AK series of weapons, with all the jaw about never jamming, user-friendliness, yada yada yada....first sim firefight, first round, three of the worthless POS's jammed. Those three of my fellow shaheeds got their wish. Op rods were firmly and totally rusted to the shroud tubes. After we hammered them open and they were cleaned, erosion of the piston was so bad that they would short-stroke every round. And these were NEW weapons. Now, the owners were "re-enactors", and some of you know what THEY think clean is, as opposed to what WE think it is. Still, you would suppose that, if it was built so that some Chechen goat-f**ker could maintain it, a San Antonio cop could. I've used and carried the AR15/M16 type rifles since 1970 and the only time I've EVER had a malfunction for anything other than ammo failure was one time, while experimenting with a 10" shorty, and that was still, essentially, an ammo problem due to timing with the short bbl. I've shot entire NM seasons and only thing I cleaned was the bolt/carrier, just to see if what I heard was true, it was. Part of the mystique, I think, arises out of our proclivity to ascribe attributes to our enemies and their gear that they don't possess. The Soviets were always thought of as ten feet tall, and their armor terrifyingly powerful. Uh, the Afghans dispelled that notion. The AK is a piece of shit. It's popular because it was generally free, or close to it. Start giving away TEC-9's to third world shitholes, and see how prolific it becomes....All that being said, give me the M14!

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 17:09:51 (ZULU)

I had to help a cop free his 870 Remington slide that had rusted shut in the trunk a few years back does that prove a 870 is a piece of shit? Just asking? Your comparison to goat lovers and San Antonio cops is something I will have to work on Charles. I've only known a few of each.

And what do "reenactors" use in their rifles? It ain't smokeless powder. It's more like your grill Charles. May be you know more about cooking?

Brogers
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 17:23:33 (ZULU)

Hell Bill, I'll ask. What are the details of that deal where the SKS did so well? Who else showed up and what did they bring?

If the SKS guys won in the rapid fire phase vs some dudes with Trapdoor Springfields or Krags then maybe it'll make sense:) S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 17:31:10 (ZULU)

The terms as i remember them.

combat cardboard pistol human full size 100,200,300,500 mtrs

Each round was 20 shots total. 10 Rounds of 20 shots were fired total by each contestant for afternoon.

Hit on target counted 5 a miss was 0. Hit in border cardboard =0

about 50 people or so were participating.

Iron Sights peep or open.

Military rifle used somewhere at some time.

about half were SKS because it was the SKS club that sponsored the thing. They were practiced but all different skill levels.

m1,m1a,a few AR's, a couple of AK's, Mauser's Kraig's whatever was in somebody's closet. I think one guy even used a Winchester lever action of some kind.

It was simple enough. Every rifle that ever was wasn't there.

Maybe your Swiss Mauser or your Mosin Nagant or... your what the hell ever you think... would have won.

Hell I just tell it the way I saw it. I was shooting a M1 match and wasn't in the top 10. There was a 30mph 20 degree wind that wound up blowing about 50 at times. A lot of things go into the winning of a match. Just because you got the best gun don't mean you win.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 17:53:03 (ZULU)

BRodgers, Ha Ha No cheap shot indented. I just had very bad experiences with those guns there. They tried to use them in ways they were not intended for. (QRF/CAT and the like) Being around those guys with a open-bolt blow-back sub-gun ahhhh.... SUCKED! Believe me, you had to be there. My biggest concern with those guys was that they might work too well. :)

The 5.56 Gallils were ok at best. Now, I will be fair. Most were very tired and worn.

By the time I left, my CAT team was armed with the same weapon we (contractor QRF) were. US M4 flat-top uppers on a T-65 lower. They match up perfect.

Oh yeah I almost forgot. The rum was great. Went good with the Cohibas.

Semper Fi,

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 18:15:01 (ZULU)

Dennis Prager : Liberals Don't Ask "What Happens Next?"

Hey! I've been plagiarized! How cool is that???

Charles, Rod, SSG Mac: Email inbound--attachments are clean word files dredged up from various intel-style sites. Lemme know what ya'll think about the info...

Joe M
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 18:16:42 (ZULU)

Jim; Well the Rum is good, I'll give it that back when I could drink it,actually I used it for bronchotis.

If you guys look back in the archives and if you taunt me further I will find it myself. I reported on this event of the SKS shoots several years ago in small detail. There should be several things evident here. Unless you just don't like my ass at all which is understandable you should without much deliberation know....

1. I have not one single reason to lie about a SKS event that happened about a decade ago in a small Oklahoma panhandle town one Saturday afternoon.

2. I have no reason to favor a Commie produced rifle over an American modern marvel like the M-16/AR 15 and no reason to put down American weapons unless you think I'm a COMMIE spy.

3. I hate SKS rifles and don't friggin own one or a round that goes in it! I don't own a damn AK either but I've shot em and more different damn autos that about any 20 of you put together would be my guess! And in conditions that your not gonna be privy too.

4. Why the hell should I care if your gun jams on your ass and gets you killed or not?

And in the 11 years I've been on here I've never called anyone a liar or questioned anything they've told me that required me to witness.

Now what can't you gentlemen give me the same courtesy?

Brogers
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 19:06:47 (ZULU)

Geez guys, play nice. Bill, I've got no experience with the SKS, but based upon a very limited trial with some AK's deep in the last century, I wouldn't have bet that anything based upon that system would have won any kind of a match like that. However, stranger things have happened,

Diesel country- looked at the jug in the barn. The CRC stuff is called Fuel Therapy (with anit-gel).

AR's-I'm not a fan of the system. But, like someone else said, the sights have to be close to the best CQB (iron) sight setup ever made. Having sights the troops can't screw with in the field is genius, not a defect. Given the malfunctions I've seen due to overly vigorous magazine changes, I've been rethinking the idea that a bolt locking back is a good thing. The forward bolt assist was mandated by the Army.

WR Moore
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 20:15:09 (ZULU)

Well I gotta tell ya, he has got me curious. I have a never been shot Russian blade bayonet SKS in my safe. I just might bring it to the range and see what it does. I got a class of guys from Europe coming in to drive and shoot M4s and AKs. Might be a good time to try it out.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 20:26:59 (ZULU)

W.R. nobody was as surprised as me when I read the scores on that one. I thought my shots were good. I think having been there that the people factor was the biggest thing that made it come out that way. There was little recoil and easy loading and handling was simple no shakey nerves among the SKS users, the open sights were on target because the range was in meters and the sights on a SKS are in meters and acccurate. The 200 rounds ate the bolt rifle people's lunch due to the poor stock designs and SKS people all had the bayonet for a rest. Stick that spike bayonet in the ground and the rifle is stable whereas few of the other rifles had anything like that and the experience of the SKS club shooters who didn't look like much but had been shooting about every week end ate their lunch.

By the way the SKS will out shoot the AK for accuracy about 2 to one.

It will outshoot most bolt relics too. The ammo while cheap is not inaccurate. The odds they would win were increased by their numbers also and the odds they would be shooting when the wind was lower was also better due to the fact there were twice as many of them.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 20:38:48 (ZULU)

Duman, I got the X200A through my local (tri-state) LE shop, ‘cause she got it for me at about $20 less than the lowest I could find on line. Lemme know if you want me to hook you up.

CDC’, I use the RCBS bench-mounted AutoPrime if I’m doing anything of substance. Priming on the down-stroke gives me great feel. Even to the point that I forgo priming on the progressive to get that feel at the expense of an added step. The only down-side is that you have to buy extra primer tubes, ‘cause the new ones only hold 100 primers – better than the old ones that it came with, that only held 50 large primers! For sitting in front of the TV and working with plinking brass, the LEE hand prime gets my nod (yes, I actually prefer it to the Hornady and the RCBS hand units). The main difference is that the LEE unit starts wearing my thumb if I do many.

Lindy, are you 100% on the M24 being replaced by the SR25? That move makes no sense to me – replacing a snipers rifle with a spotters rifle. When they went from the M21 to the M24, at least I could understand the reasoning... I guess I’m remembering Master Rick saying that he’d never gotten a ratgun or M25 to make it through his course. No more M24s would make that difficult, eh?

You guys SHOULD have known not to start this carbine / rifle stuff... Now I’m logging on to www.piefight/lemon-custard/SoupySales.com

Alan said, “When push comes to shove some folks are going to believe what they're predisposed to believe”, which is so much the truth it’s silly. That’s why I do what I do. Interestingly, I’ve found that VERY minor (or what I perceive to be minor in any case) changes in the experiment design can yield large changes in the results. For instance, one of the fellows I correspond with did some nasty testing on 1911s. Out of all the ones he tried, none hung up. My results weren’t the same, so my thought automatically locked on to the experiment conditions themselves. He said that he did all his testing with the pistols in condition 3, where I did mine in condition 1. From the sounds of it, he was more rigorous in how he shook the snot out of the pistols too – I was much more gentle to make sure the muzzle didn’t come back around at me. Was that the totality of what made the differences? I dunno – but I do mean to find out. In my experience, we’ve got too few people willing to make that statement – “I DON’T KNOW” – but I’m no fool for admitting that I don’t. Yet. Comparing the same manufacturers wares, could it be that the single pistol I test is different than the single pistol he tested? Surely. All this leads me to say that my results (and to an extent any other individuals) are proof of what MY stuff will do on THAT day – but only indicative of what you can expect from YOUR stuff.

So youse guys can say ‘eh, what does he know’, but when I can point to someone that is highly respected in the field and make a comment like ‘Farnam chose the same thing AFTER I came to the conclusion this was better’ – maybe I’m not completely stoooopid. I’ll cop guilty to the overkill concept though, just ‘cause it has to be extreme before I remember the definition of that word. This could be because I’ve been accused of being able to make anvils malf, and I copped guilty.

And on Alan’s comment on the HK91 being overweight, uncomfortable, and inaccurate. I’ll agree with you for 1.5 out of 3, but in the accuracy department the HK types vie for the accuracy title with a rack grade ’14 – better than a FAL – in my experience. Heck, I’ve had some that would shoot with any rack grade ’14 I’ve owned. Now here’s the caveat though: a good ’14 trigger will allow a rifleman to make the most of the accuracy – the HK is the opposite, it has the inherent accuracy but the typical trigger doesn’t allow one to make the most of it from anything but a dead rest. Since the HK is limited to not much past 400M though, due to the sights, this is kind of an apples-oranges comparison and I’ll admit that right off. Some rack grade FALs are better than others as well, but again, we’re talking the difference between cheesy rack grade and nice rack grade, not tack-driver. My current FAL has a chrome lined ‘everything in the front’ group, and it’s surprisingly NICE. Oh, and if you want a FAL with more adjustable sights, DSA has a lower specifically engineered / built to utilize M16A2 sights. Oh, the uncomfortable part I only agree half-way. With the right buffer, the HK types are pussycats. Now if you’d said ‘designed almost entirely without a sense of ergonomics’, I’d have agreed completely. Back to reliability though, the HK91 (again, in my experience) is more reliable than the FAL or the M14. The trick comes in (think of this particularly in the context of carbines debate ongoing) determining exactly how much reliability you NEED (needs and wants are personal perceptions!) and how much you’re willing to trade off for other attributes – like weight, accuracy, etc. The ’14 isn’t as tolerant of nasty conditions as the HK IME, but it’s tolerant to the point that I live with it quite nicely – I’m willing to trade that very small bit of reliability increase only noticeable in extreme circumstances for the capability of changing mags FAST, better sights (IMO – that allow for ‘farther than 400M’ range) and better trigger. If I were a German born and raised on the HK though, in an area where 400M would suffice nicely, maybe not.

In my experience, the AR isn’t as tolerant of abusive conditions as some other designs, but that doesn’t mean it’s ‘bad’. It just means that one should keep his weapon free of debris if he wants it to function. A Kalashnikov will function with the receiver over half-filled with sand – Mike even posted the video of exactly that right here. Will a ’16? Hey, don’t poke me for that comment, ask Clint Smith why he took the sand out of the old TR – some people don’t KNOW to keep their stick free of debris! Does that make the ’16 ‘bad’? No. Patron Joe admonished me at one point that after a river crossing anyone would and should do a fast cleaning on their stick. Sure, I agree. The difference is between ‘should’ and ‘have to’. Or another aspect: as Clint Smith put it, warning a class about the fact it was starting to rain and the consequences of getting water in the barrels of the AR types – unless you’ve got an AK or an HK; if you do, feel free to throw it in the nearest puddle and fire it when you pull it out. Does that make the AK or HK ‘better’? Well it certainly makes ‘em different, but good luck in talking me into using a HK93. One of my old mentors made the statement that the [insert rifle / carbine of choice, as to make an example, not sling mud] worked perfectly as long as you cleaned it before you ate every meal, before you went to sleep, when you first woke up, and before you started to gripe or grumble about anything. I found, at least for now, the point at which I’m willing to trade. If someone else has a different point, then that’s great for them. I won’t make fun of them any more than I want someone making fun of me – and my guess would be that both people are completely capable ‘cause the user changes his practices to conform to his chosen weapon.

Ken said that the 6.8 is the answer to the carbine question, but I have to respectfully disagree. Here’s my thinking: anything that recoils more than a 5.56 is going to disallow my fast-fast CQB stuff. A 6.8 is an attempt to upgrade a ‘improved SMG’ (fast-fast CQB stuff) to a battle rifle (not so good at fast-fast CQB stuff). In a full-length M16A2, I can understand the 6.8 principle and maybe even agree. Still, the need for a ‘improved SMG’ is there, and the best thing I can figure is using a 5.56 shorty (I was impressed with the 11.5” Colt Commandos at The Ranch) for the ‘improved SMG’ role and a rifle for the rifle role. Mixing (compromising) the two seems to negate the shining qualities of both. And Ken, I’ve GOT to get with you with questions on those HK mags.

Rear sights –and HK in particular– I think it’s whatever you’ve come to know. Personally, I don’t like the 100 meter open sight on the HK, but don’t mind (but don’t much like either) the diopter settings. That having been said, people are now so ‘M16 platform-centric’ that many have difficulties dealing with sights where they SHOULD be – right on top of the barrel (less offset). The kid that brought the SUCK-COM (Sproingfeld SOCOM) to The Ranch had a difficult time as he was adjusting all over everywhere. Why? ‘Cause the cadre knew how to zero a ’16, and expected the POA/POI on his SUCK-COM to be the same, sight offset not withstanding. Duh, no. Then again, they didn’t know how to check to see if the gas system was turned on or not either... This worked to my advantage (I prefer to be zeroed farther out) so I didn’t say anything at the time.

But the HK and FAL get the short-shrift in my opinion. In the practical rifle stuff I’ve done, 90% of it required no change of sight settings – and I can’t recall ever shifting windage during a COF. If a good zero is obtained first (and you GOT to have screwdrivers to do that on the HK or FAL), it’s all apples-apples. Now elevation is a different matter, and that’s where I believe the ’14 / M1 come into their own: the pre-determined drops of the FAL work great if you zero at the 500 or 600 (IME) ranges. The 400M on the HK is barely better, but due to the range restrictions good luck seeing the difference. Use a different type of ammo than the FAL sights are regulated for though, or don’t zero at longer ranges, and it can be a hose-a-thon. That’s why I prefer the 1 MOA sights – with a rack grade the sight is better at range than I am by a touch, and that’s PERFECT.

On competitions with ruskie stuff though, I’m sure if you run the archives back a ways, you’ll find a comment I made about running a combat rifle COF where it came down to me (with a rack grade ’14) and an older fellow running a Kalashnikov. Yes, he was that good, good ‘nuff to outperform the guys with the black carbines at that time. The only, ONLY reason he didn’t get me was ‘cause past 500 I had the upper hand. Instead of standing on my hind feet, clicking the safety one more position down and riding the recoil into / through the targets –like he did- I dropped, dialed, and hit one-per. He had me (and everyone else) in the closer stuff. Do I doubt that the same thing could have happened with a different guy that day on a closer range, using a Simonov? Hardly. Heck, I remember when people bringing the A1s out to play were snickered at (politely, only behind their backs LOL!) – and the first time one of ‘em beat me. Weird stuff happens. I've gotten used to it - heck, sometimes I AM the wierd stuff that happens.

But speaking of which (testing), I feel like I’ve probably used up my arctic conditions for this year, sitting at home being sick. This morning was up to 14 degrees, which means essentially ‘way too warm for good testing’. If you’ve got cold, ship it here, I could use a good –20 to –40 week now that I’m feeling mostly better. Mostly. My partner in crime decided he’s got better things to do than do the cold weather stuff anyway, so if the weather here turns way cold, and you don’t hear from me soon, send bail money.

On the barrel meat, Patron Joe brought up a topic I should have said I purposefully excluded: the three-speed transmission. What I’ve done isn’t apples-to-apples. I think the hardest I’ve ever run anything was about 780 rounds in a bit less than 20 minutes. Two full loads about as quick as I could. I’ve done half that (one full load) with many / most of my sticks though. DSA decided to do a 10K torture test on one of their FALs, running all the rounds in something like one weekend. Good for them! I love the fact that they did some things right (toss it in the snow occasionally to cool it down, towards the end, as an example), but question the lessons learned – when parts broke during the test they were somehow replaced. Now what does it mean when the DSA rep who insisted he be present just HAPPENS to have a spare regulator in his briefcase, to replace the one that flew down-range to never be seen again?

My only gripe with the Galil (or a more generic Kalashnikov design) is that it’s hefty for the caliber (either one actually) because it uses the receiver style I (and others) don’t prefer. And the lack of a bolt-hold-open. As-is though, unless you’ve got a bunch of money, the Galil isn’t worth it. Here’s what stopped me: you can get 12 round (12 round? WTF-over?) mags for $20, the 25 round mags (25 round? WTF-over?) are $100. Think about this – 65 mags cost what? I personally have little use for a Kalashnikov in the typical soviet calibers. I’ve been playing with new 20 rounders (7.62 NATO) for the Kalashnikov chambered in such, and have essentially come to the conclusion ‘not ready for prime time yet’. This having been said, I believe a Kalashnikov in 5.56 NATO is VERY nice as a beat-around stick. EXTREMELY reliable (but not NEARLY as flexible as the AR platform), and the mags are as rugged as they get. Currently mine is disassembled on the kitchen table (eh, I’m single, remember?!) showing all kinds of gunk ‘cause I clean them every thousand rounds or so whether they need it or not ;-) They WORK, mostly. Mine suffered a debilitating bend on the receiver, so it malfs every 400 or so rounds now. Seems fedex hates delivering packages in tact, when I took possession the charging handle was literally sticking THROUGH the hard case wall. It appeared 100% though. Dunno what I’m going to do about it, but more than likely have the entire stick parted onto another receiver. Some like Mary Ann, some like Ginger, I prefer to have ‘em BOTH waiting at home for me. Then again, I also understand one is more forgiving, the other higher maintenance – one more ‘down to earth’, the other more flexible. Eh!

Bravo
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 20:52:53 (ZULU)

Will someone close that window. i felt a draft of common sense from out west there. That could upset the format here today. The last Galil i felt I just smiled and let it settle back on the bipod. It's too damn heavy. But the last AR-15 was just about the same weight with gadgets that made it look like a Starwars space ship. Guns that are good enough "if you keep em cleaned all the time" tire my logic to figure why they are good enough for combat purposes. Guns with little pieces that get lost and fall off while your trying to keep them working likewise tire me. If a spare parts kit is needed i scare easy. A rifle that has to have a charging handle added that if you push it after a failure to feed or a jam guarantees that you must get out the rod (that's stored in the stock) and jam it up the barrel to free the bolt, breaks me out in a sweat. On the other hand a rifle that works for millions of goat fuxkers all over the world and has been on the winning side against 2 or the greatest super powers I can relax a little while with. I'll argue for the good points of some and point out the bad points of others. That's what keeps me in such high esteem on this page where the model # is everything.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 21:14:13 (ZULU)

Bravo,

"Duman, I got the X200A through my local (tri-state) LE shop, ‘cause she got it for me at about $20 less than the lowest I could find on line. Lemme know if you want me to hook you up."

Is she cute?!? :8-p

"Priming on the down-stroke gives me great feel." Eeeeewwwww.....

"Since the HK is limited to not much past 400M though, due to the sights, .." 1200m sites are available.

HK == Heavy Kraut-hammer

Duman
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 21:59:48 (ZULU)

Okay, I give, what's the difference between a goat fucker and a Texas cop?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 22:25:58 (ZULU)

'yote bait,

Wow! You're really on a roll now. Passive-agressive posting at its finest. Just take it from here and run with it. You just keep repeating your fantasies on the DR while I'll sit back and do some real-world things that I've neglected during the past cold wave. The floor is all yours! Enjoy.

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 22:33:16 (ZULU)

Geoff...

I recall that Cavin brass was not too good, but maybe someone else can chime in - it was 50BMG Cavin that was badd mouthed.

Hey Ken M...

Tell us how you feel about HKs ;))

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 22:43:46 (ZULU)

Bravo: Sinister Dave didn't think much of that program, either, and said so. But what does he know? Apparently the civilians who made that decision didn't think he knew enough.

The web page linked off my name says, in part, "After the rifle is zeroed, the accuracy of the rifle shall be equal to or greater than the M24 SWS."

Dont frickin' think so - and that's based on considerable experience with SR25s. And the M118LR won't stay supersonic nearly as far as the M24 will throw them, either.

It is a good spotter rifle - but it ain't a functional replacement for the M24.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 23:08:52 (ZULU)

SR25/ M24: The requirement for the gasser was specific enough, but in the budget process, it was "assumed" that M24s had hit a lifespan. The intent, however, was to supplement th M24 in the current fight. Since we won't train leaders to use snipers as designed, we shall equip them to better survuve while being misused. Seems like par for the course to me. But along the wy thru the procurement process, the weenies came up with "replacement" criteria all by themselves (little field input once the ball is rolling).

But, now that cooler heads are looking at the mess---the M24 seems to be surviving with the SR25 back as the supplemental gun it was originally thought of. My bud in OMB assures me that the M24 is staying on the shelf. Since he is the MFIC, I believe him. Also, the outcry back in May/ June was pretty loud.

Really, the idea that "it looks like what the other troops are carrying" tells the story quite well, eh? If you are marching around with "other troops" who the hell is overwatching from a hide???? If that doesn't spell inadequate leader training on sniper employment--I dunno what would.:((

I thought I posted this earlier in the day---but it musta been in the post I deleted.

Joe M
Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 23:20:53 (ZULU)

CDC...

Priming tools??

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=457599

I have used them for more years than I like to rememebr.

First designed by Lachmiller, and then bought up by RCBS.

Works good!

Joe M...

OK, it's not funny anymore. You can take back your weather anytime you like!!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 23:28:27 (ZULU)

I've seen M24s being issued to guys who are functionally the equivalent of the "Designated Markman". That's probably a good use for them.

I've also seen teams deployed with the Mark 13 Mod 2 in .300 WM, with the spotter carrying the SR25.

I'm not sure I know what the lifetime of a M24 is - with barrel replacements. The Marine Corps is converting their M40A3s to detachable mag systems, and doing that with the M24s would certainly extend the utility of the system - as most of us know that a proficient rifleman can certainly run the bolt fast enough to present a formidable level of force.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 6, 2007, at 23:53:50 (ZULU)

Bravo, feel free to contact me via roster mail or at target no space 1371 at aol dot com. Remove no space. I'm on a lap top and my typing ain't the greatest on this thing. Leave a # and I'll call you when I'm able and we'll talk HK mags and other HK product failings.

I understand your differing with my concept re: 6.8SPC, I just think you're wrong. No big deal, worse things have happened.

Spotters should not have semi auto sniper caliber rifles. You want two long range guns, send two teams or use a semi auto and accept you get less range with them. Spotters should have M4's with M203's or other serious guns for when you get into the shit and need to do some high intensity killing to get clear. Reference my little tale regarding breaking contact just a day ago. Doing that with a SR25, at night, is a no-go. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 00:09:00 (ZULU)

Kittywhacker: No way:)) You could try holding a gun to my head...but I'd probably make ya an offer for it:))

Oil field explosions in CA? I guess I am paranoid still.

Added the primer tool stuff to my SC Gems document...

Thanks guys.

Joe M
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 00:45:22 (ZULU)

Duman - The green link chains are Stihl manufactured... the trade name is something like 'chisle point chain' or some such...for 'professional use'. It is simply a more aggressive blade with a greater tendancy to 'pop' when used wrong. You can kill yourself with it, with just a tiny bit of distraction. When I worked for a tree service back in college, we used spools of commercial stuff that we would pull off and join to length. It worked fine in the Stihls and was a 'no brand' sort of product. I'm sure there are a bunch of manufacturers that make equivalent products.

Alan - My job has me drive a computer and telephone all day...if I don't do some real work (split wood, landscape, etc) on the weekends, I'll turn into a pudding-belly. That would be bad.

Click my name to see my home-made enclosure and hearth...I bought the stove (55000 btu JOTUL)

Yote Bait - What happened to that thick skin you used to have? I like my little SKS..

CAVIM - I have a 50 cal ammo can full of the stuff (308). Berdan primed, black tar sealant, dirtiest crap I've ever fired... That is when the stuff actually fires, which is not frequent enough for me to trust it. The contents of the can are free to the first KNOWN roster hog that offers to come over and pick it up...total crapola if you ask me. The can is full to the top with 20 round boxes, LOT # A09-38', apprx 500 rounds.

medicjim
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 03:00:14 (ZULU)

" Where and when was it proven that the WTC attack of 9/11/2001 had any direct links to Iraq and/or Saddam Hussein? I'd just like to know some facts, from those who link Iraq and the WTC together."

Do you mean other than the pics of the Iraqi intel honchos meeting with AQ honchos and the boeing fuslage setting outside Bagdad being used for hijacking training and the $$ Saddam filtered to various nutcase terrorists groups?

We could mention the WMD, but, that would just show the bias of the mains stream media and ineptness of Bush and the Republicans. I can't let it pass, Bush is a baboon and the Repubican liberals in DC are even bigger baboons.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13480264/8836

http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=3441

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

and the LA Times May 22 2003 pg A13

On top of all that, Saddam was a heartless bastard that terrorized his people. I have (had?) 2 Iraqi friends (married couple) from college who went back to Iraq not because they wanted too, but, because if they didn't go back their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, nephews, nieces, grandparents, and close friends would have been executed.

George
boomtown, Tn, - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 03:11:56 (ZULU)

"Thanks for that last post. Very informative. I spent six years flying to the middle east taking stuff to the troops. I got a peek at the region and learned a little about their customs and religion. I think this mess started even before the Gulf War. I think it started with Khomeni back in the early 70s."

More like about the time Mohommed was given the Quron by Allah.

George
KaBOOM central, T N, - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 03:14:11 (ZULU)

Gentleman,

Although it is a rehash, the favorite fighting stick thread was/is pretty interesting and some good points were made. Reading the differeent posts made me do some thinking and came up with the following. Although it proves exactly nothing, this may be fun or instructive. Just for fun, take your preferred battle stick/model/style and give yourself one point for each of the following:

1. Ever carry it in a war/hostile fire zone?

2. Ever carry it on a high risk warrant?

3. Ever fire it in anger?

4. Ever build one?

5. Ever take a big game animal with it?

6. Ever make a parachute drop with it? Give yourself another point if you made 50 or more. (Hey, it my post, I can set the parameters.)

7. Ever swim with it?

8. Ever conduct a live fire in a profesional setting involving you and at least, lets say, 3 people?

9. Ever carry it and a basic load of, oh lets say, 7 magazines of live ammo for a two week or more period?

10. Ever finish in the top three of any formal shooting competetion with it?

11. Ever sucessfully hit a target with it at 500 yards or more?

12. Ever clear a structure/building with it?

Not scientific. Entirely voluntary. Possibly focuses too much on tactical aspects but since this is a tactical shooting site.... It may give some food for thought. FYI, my score was 9.

I can't wait for the incoming on this.

Jim Reifinger: I don't envy you teaching tactics and marksmanship in Haiti. I spent a little time there and some of the guys I was working with could have shot into the air and missed. I did enjoy the five star rum....the three star tore me up. I was more of a Romeo Y Julietta kind of guy rahter than Cohiba's.

Pat II
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 03:18:33 (ZULU)

Gents,

Well, looks like I'm a day late and a dollar short again. I'll comment anyway.

I'm not really going to comment much on the AK vs. AR thread. Use what you have. I'd just comment that historically what the other guy uses is always "better". Maintain your gear and you won't have problems...

HK magazines? Bravo and I had this discussion a few weeks ago. I've never had problems with GI issue stuff, so why pay astronomical prices for a heavy German engineered version? This is in the same category as AK's vs. AR's. Not worth the time...

H&K has made a fortune on tuetonic arrogance, "kewl" factory, and supposedly building the "best". The only weapon I thought was worth a damn was the MP-5 and I'll take a suppressed Swedish "K" over that. H&K now build guns you can throw away rather than maintain. That does not leave me warm and fuzzy. And yes, I do have trigger time on the UMP. So, ask me what I really think about H&K...;-)

Sniper Rifles: The Army is absolutely queer for gas guns. The M21 was a problem child as were it's successors. The KAC SR-25 had great promise, but that program was salvaged by Boot's Obermeyer when the KAC product failed to deliver the goods. He gave them the ballistics they wanted in a 20" tube. It's turned out to be a pretty good platform. My own GAP AR-10 is certainly accurate, but I would certainly consider it good for DMR purposes not a true sniper rifle.

I agree with the Marines looking at a detachable box magazine for the M40A3. A complaint has always been ammo capacity and reload time. Still, tradition says internal mag with floor plate. We can do better. The Brit's certainly don't seem to have trouble with their AI rifles and magazines...

Time to go snap in...sniper championship this Saturday. Would shoot my AR-10, but I haven't had time to zero the Nikon Monarch scope. Will report back on that next week when I get to shoot it. It's my M40A1 clone for me this weekend.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 03:30:46 (ZULU)

George: Calling Mr. Bush a "baboon" is offensive to those of us who support his efforts as Commander In Chief.

Gentlemen: Thanks for the info on priming tools. It's appreciated

Pat II: "...take your preferred battle stick/model/style..."

Since I have no preffered stick, I get a zero.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 04:47:35 (ZULU)

edited out the BS...

Joe M
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 05:04:50 (ZULU)

BRogers: Dude, go to the kitchen, have a cold one, take a few deep, cleansing breaths. Haldol works, too. I was speaking of the (listen closely now) AK-47. Now, I like the SKS. It reminds me, in fit, finish and accuracy, of the Ruger Mini-14. It's good to have when you can't have a rifle. And yes, reenactors use smokeless powder. It HAD been invented by WWII, so that's what they use. Why they're called reenactors. As for my grill, it works pretty good. It won't shoot moa to 1k yards, but it WILL hit the bullseye with good Tejas briskets. Or cabrito (baby goat). Speaking of which, the difference between a San Antonio cop and a goat fucker is, since we carry AR15's and not SKS's, women will talk to us. As for flat out not liking your ass, I haven't seen it yet, so I will withhold judgement. If it falls in my 1% category, I can be persuaded. (I WAS in the Navy, after all!)

Pat II....I get twelve points. What do I win?

'scuse me now, guys, I gotta go wash the stench of rotten body out of my nostrils. Been a crappy day.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 05:45:34 (ZULU)

Priming tool:

Here's an expensive one...

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=REPTSI&item=PT-2000&type=store

Pat II and Jim Reifinger:

Montecristo #1 or #3 depending on time available.

Joe M.:

Freefall, as the saying goes, is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 05:52:28 (ZULU)

jc...

On the Sinclair priming tool.

It's OK if you have 50 cases to do (it's a benchrest toy), but if you have mucho cases to do, you will get to know the symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome much too early in life.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 12:07:28 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt - That brisket sounds good.

medicjim
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 14:32:40 (ZULU)

I apologize for confusing this forum with the truth as I knew it.

If you can't handle that then do indeed... go milk your horses. I meant no treason to American interests domestic or abroad. No insult to yo mama or the Red White and Blue. That's all I can do to retify the great wrong I have obviously done you all. Please copy and paste this somewhere so you can look at it again in case I decide to screw with your mind in the future, or you can whine to the board and have my ass laid to rest with the others you didn't agree with. Otherwise you are forever cursed to have heard the perceived lies and distortions you think you heard and may you be cursed to forever seek to find somebody who gives a shit what you think.

Brogers
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 14:47:13 (ZULU)

'lito,

Benchrest toy is right. I just threw the Sinclair out as a reference on how much you can spend on a priming tool. I've always used the inexpensive Lee Auto-Prime. Got one around here somewhere that's about 30 years old and it still works just fine.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 15:47:33 (ZULU)

Bill: You feeling well, man? I think you're being a little disproportional lately...remember, you were hardly the first guy around here who was asked to back up a claim that, on the face, didn't square with usual outcomes. Task, conditions and standards---leave out any one of those and you will get called on it in this bar, eh?

I dropped that last post. After reading it, I sure sounded like my own best friend:))

Joe M
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 16:15:33 (ZULU)

'lito,

I was looking at that RCBS tool but had some doubts only because of my perception of their drop in quality which has slipped badly since Fred Huntington sold the company. Is yours of fairly recent manufacture?

Pat II,

My score was only 7. Can I still play? ;))

George,

No sale! The key words in my question were "proven" and "direct links". I don't dispute the facts that Iraq was a rogue state, Saadam was a tyrant, money and support was being funneled to terrorists, and all those other charges. But using that logic, why didn't we invade Syria or Iran for example? Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia? After all, most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis who came from Wahabbi schools! It appears to me that even Mike Nifong couldn't get an indictment on Iraq's involvement in the WTC attack from a North Carolina jury. No, if we needed excuses to invade Iraq, 9/11 is a pretty flimsy one. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not necessarily against the invasion of Iraq, but I am vehemently opposed to the way we handled it after we had boots on the ground. Do I support our troops in Iraq? Absolutely! Do I support the SecDef and the Generals who agreed with him? Hell no.

I voted for Bush. Twice. Even though I don't care for the way he has handled things in the White House for a long time I still must retain respect for the office of the President of the United States. I will admit, however, that my respect for that office wore pretty thin during the Jimmuh and Slick Willie eras. As far as the actions of the Republican Party in general over the last eight years, they should all be ashamed to call themselves Republicans. But to steal an oft quoted phrase "people deserve the government they get".

It's time for me to "go milk my horses" :)))

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 16:22:15 (ZULU)

Medicjim: Yeah, it puts out some mean BBQ. You ever get down here, LMK in advance, I'll fire that puppy up and slam a brisket in there for about 12-14 horas. Or, maybe I'll thin out the little herd of deer I almost ran into in the driveway last night coming home.

While BRogers is in the next room sucking his thumb, I'll divulge a littel secret. I actually LIKE the SKS/AK design, it's the execution I find fault with. Once, back in the late '70's or early '80's,(I forget now) I owned a couple of Valmets chambered in 7.62x39. Beautiful little rifles. I liked the design, they were actually quite accurate, and they just looked and felt good. However, if you will remember, at that time, ComBloc ammo was about a dollar a pop, when you could get enough of it to wanna shoot it, and I was a piss-poor Second Class Petty officer in the U.S. canoe club with wife, kids and a car payment. Didn't shoot them a lot, but I did carry them all over the place. They were rugged and handy with the side folding stocks. Found out what corrosive ammo will do to a bore, even with religious cleaning. My shooter had a clean, shiny, smooth BLACK bore. Anyway, being young and essentially stupid (and I'm not young anymore...) I sold them both. Later, I tried to replace them, but could only find the Galil variant. Ho-hum. I like the AR system, with all it's warts, because it's been good to me. But, if I could get my hands on one of those Valmets, I'd be as happy as a clam, knowing I was GTG out to 300 or so, and then the Howas could take over. But, even the best of the AK's today are cheaply made POS's, and the stocks are for midgets. If you're gonna make a .30 rifle, make it a rifle. Otherwise, trim down the bullet and make it so you can use it at something past where you're enemy can rush you and brain you with his inferior weapon. With my M4-gery, I can hit out to 1K yards, and anything from me to that is gonna at least have it's attention diverted from me. So, there. pppphhhhhbbbtttttt........

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 16:28:56 (ZULU)

Well Joe; i guess I don't know what else to do to "back it up". I guess I could probably find about half those particpants in that shoot and get them to sign a witness statement for you. How would that do or would I still be in question? Gosh somebody might have lied? I don't know Joe I guess constantly living with insults from assholes who know what happened someplace they've never been have thrown me off a little. I have already apologized but let me tell you something.... it's the last damn time!

Brogers
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 16:50:47 (ZULU)

SCDR PERCIEVED INSULT HOTLINE NUMBER:

1-800-WAAH-FUCKIN'-WAAH

Gotta milk those horses again ;))

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 17:14:46 (ZULU)

"your passive-agressive way of posting combined with your throwing out inaccuracies can really piss me off!"

Alan; over the years I've noticed that about anything you don't want to hear fits in the catagory of things that piss you off!

Maybe you ought to shoe those stump broke horses while your there cause this is gonna be a long trail your headed down.

What are those pipe cleaners for anyway?

Brogers
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 17:49:48 (ZULU)

Ken, you’ll have incoming on the addy you posted, subject “From Stan”, no attachments. Thanks! After thinking about the 6.8, and my statement that it must recoil more (never having fired one), I withdraw my statement due to needing further experience. And here I was talking about learning from doing and not jumping on preconceived notions! ;-) All I know is that the kid with the SUCK-COM sure acted like he had a tiger by the tail when trying hammer pairs LOL!

Since I recommended the same priming press that Patron ‘Lito did, that means nobody will tell me I’m a schmuck, loser, liar, or that my haircut looks funny ;-) Unfortunately Alan, I can’t speak intelligently on the current offerings – mine is 20 something years old, probably closer to 30. My guess is though, that since it’s such an incredibly SIMPLE design, it’d be difficult to screw up. Oh, and Sportsmans Whorehouse has primer tubes (one small, one large) in a tube - $10 for the tube. Get a bunch of ‘em, and fill them all at the same time. A cotter key keeps the primers in until you want to use them – getting a bunch of tubes ready before hand keeps your tempo up with no distractions. The only adjustment necessary (or possible) is a simple setscrew affair that adjusts the height for different brands of primers. If you stay with one brand, it’s pretty much set and forget.

For Charles and his like of the Kalashnikov – not all of them made today are a POS, get your hands on one from Marc Krebs, specifically anything he labels a KTR. They have a Galil type thumb lever (forward to fire) where it should be, a trigger that is every bit as good as an M14 National Match, and accuracy that makes you think “this isn’t your fathers Kalashnikov”, due in part to the M16A1 type rear sight. That I know of, all the KTRs are sold through R-Guns. Not cheap, and typically there’s a wait, but you get something worth what you pay. The only gripe I could come up with is that the tritium front sights aren’t as easy to bolt in as they should be – my guess is that you’d have to order that as a custom item to get something that actually works. Long story. Oh, and as for your statement about the Warsaw Pact length stocks being ‘made for midgets’, I almost take exception to that comment ;-) Honestly, I got one of the longer stocks and went back almost immediately – but I’m admittedly not a tall fellow. Heck, if Patron Mike calls me his ‘little buddy’, that ought to say something. That I know of, Marc doesn’t build 5.56 NATO KTRs any more, so the next best thing would be the 5.45 I suppose (SUPPOSE – I don’t own one!). I do know that using home-rolled 69 grain SMKs, a good Kalashnikov in 5.56 will keep ‘em on a siloughette at 600 – and no, I’m not joking. My recommendation would be to go with the cheaper version, sans rails everywhere. That’s just my opinion though - I didn’t like the EoTech or the Aimpoint on mine. Marc learned a whole lot about building these in Russia, from a guy name Michael LOL!

Duman, you’re just nasty ;-)

The thing is, I think people are defending what they know, and slamming unreasonably. I think we can all agree that the M4 is decent enough and adequate for most everything within reason (heck, pushed a bit, I’d bet that everyone would agree that the m4 is adequate for the task it performs in just about EVERY case as long as it’s maintained properly). This doesn’t mean that I believe the M16 chassis to be the ultimate end-all that can’t be improved upon! Heck, our government thinks the same thing! Same thing with a Kalashnikov – it’s good for what it’s good for, but it’s got some ‘not so good’ qualities as well, and I’m quick to point those out too. And to complicate matters, just because model A works well enough, that doesn’t mean that model B is automatically prohibited from working well enough also. This isn’t a ‘black or white’ issue, lots-o-lots of grey in this one. Are we talking about pure reliability? Hate to say it, but if so, then the M4 ain’t it, and I highly doubt the Kalashnikov is either. Duman got to meet my buddy at SHOT (therefore he can attest this fellow isn’t a figment of my imagination or outright fib), the guy that did the Crest Test with the HK G3 (it’s in the archives). Does that mean that I would gravitate to the HK G3? I surely would if I knew I was going into a firefight in a toothpaste factory! Elsewise, no. It’s far from perfect in my book – got a wart or three in places I don’t like warts. In the same vein, the Israelis decided the FAL wasn’t worth having. I’ve caught the term “Israeli maintenance plan” though –supposedly indicating little or no maintenance back then– which would explain why. Was that a wart? NO weapon with zero maintenance will work ALL the time. So c’mon guys... if Patron Yote Bait says that a guy with a Simonov cleaned house at one practical rifle shoot, then I say there’s ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to question that. I’d think (especially here) that people would know it’s the OPERATOR instead of the GEAR anyway. I got bested at an IDPA shoot one time by a guy who BORROWED a Beretta Cougar when the locking block on his (you know which brand) pistol broke in the first stage. That was his first time to handle that model, and he took spot #1. Good day? Maybe - or maybe he just concentrated on his front sight more 'cause it was new to him. What I do know (and said before) is that 'wierd stuff happens'. That doesn't mean I'm saying the Beretta Cougar is the best pistol on the planet though, it just means what I said - a guy won with one once and it surprised everyone (him included).

I do KNOW this though: I haven’t found the PERFECT stick yet – they ALL have warts. Some just a little less than others, in places I can tolerate more than others. Nobody is forcing anyone to trade off what they’ve got, carry something, not carry something, drop a weapon, or screw a goat.

Oh, and one last little thing: there has been some significant evolution as far as the AR platform is concerned. In the 60’s, there were no CNC milling machines. The A1s in the 80’s were rattle traps. Would anyone be surprised if a new Colt M4 worked better than either of those other two? The guy I wrote about earlier that did the 1911 tests contributed this: back when I started doing this, you essentially had your choice of Colt or Sproingfeld – they were pretty much it! And back then, many folks understood you bought a 1911 and there was a good chance it’d need ‘remedial help’ to work correctly. Both companies got away with that, ‘cause where else were you going to go? Now? Lessee here, dozens of manufacturers, PLENTY of competition, and CNC machines to make parts to tolerances MUCH tighter than 20 years ago. Think maybe that means what I learned then doesn’t really apply today? I’m sure game to question the validity of my own ‘back then’ results today. Such being the case, saying essentially that something couldn’t have happened sure sounds like a silly statement.

If you want, call me the Regenald Denney of SC, but 'can't we all just get along'?

Bravo
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 17:56:28 (ZULU)

I shamelessly stole this from another website to good NOT to steal it!

Me thinks the CSM is pissed!

Sarge

This is by J. D. Pendry who is a retired Army Command Sergeant Major and

writes for Random House.

-----------------------------------------------

Jimmy Carter, you're the father of the Islamic Nazi movement. You threw the Shah under the bus, welcomed the Ayatollah home, and then lacked the spine to confront the terrorists when they took our embassy and our people hostage. You're the runner-in-chief.

Bill Clinton, you played ring around Lewinsky while the terrorists were at war with us. You got us into a fight with them in Somalia , and then you ran from it. Your weak-willed responses emboldened the killers . Each time you failed to respond adequately they grew bolder, until 9/11.

John Kerry, dishonesty is your most prominent attribute. You lied about American Soldiers in Vietnam . Your military service, like your life, is more fiction than fact. You've accused our Soldiers of terrorizing women and children in Iraq . You called Iraq the wrong war, wrong place, wrong time, the same words you used to describe Vietnam . You're a fake. You want to run from Iraq and abandon the Iraqis to murderers just as you did the Vietnamese. Iraq , like Vietnam is another war that you were for, before you were against it.

John Murtha, you said our military was broken. You said we can't win militarily in Iraq . You accused United States Marines of cold-blooded murder without proof. And said we should redeploy to Okinawa . Okinawa John? And the Democrats call you their military expert. Are you sure you didn't suffer a traumatic brain injury while you were off building your war hero resume? You're a sad, pitiable, corrupt and washed up politician. You're not a Marine, sir. You wouldn't amount to a pimple on a real Marine's butt. You're a phony and a disgrace. Run away John.

Dick Durbin, you accused our Soldiers at Guantanamo of being Nazis, tenders of Soviet style gulags and as bad as the regime of Pol Pot, who murdered two million of his own people after your party abandoned South East Asia to the Communists. Now you want to abandon the Iraqis to the same fate. History was not a good teacher for you, was it? See Dick run.

Ted Kennedy, for days on end you held poster-sized pictures from Abu Gharib in front of any available television camera. Al Jazeera quoted you saying that Iraqi's torture chambers were open under new management. Did you see the news this week, Teddy? The Islamic Nazis demonstrate real torture for you again. If you truly supported our troops, you'd show the world poster-sized pictures of that atrocity and demand the annihilation of it. Your legislation stripping support from the South Vietnamese led to a communist victory there. You're a bloated fool bent on repeating the same historical blunder that turned freedom-seeking people over to homicidal, genocidal maniacs. To paraphrase John Murtha, all while sitting on your wide, gin-soaked rear-end in Washington .

Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Carl Levine, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Russ Feingold, Hillary Clinton, Pat Leahy, Chuck Schumer, et al ad nauseam. Every time you stand in front of television cameras and broadcast to the Islamic Nazis that we went to war because our President lied, that the war is wrong and our Soldiers are torturers, that we should leave Iraq, you give the Islamic butchers - the same ones that tortured and mutilated American Soldiers - cause to think that we'll run away again, and all they have to do is hang on a little longer.

American news media, the New York Times particularly: Each time you publish stories about national defense secrets and our intelligence gathering methods, you become one with the sub-human pieces of camel dung that torture and mutilate the bodies of American Soldiers. You can't strike up the courage to publish cartoons, but you can help Al Qaeda destroy my country. Actually, you are more dangerous to us than Al Qaeda is. Think about that each time you face Mecca to admire your Pulitzer.

You are America 's axis of idiots. Your Collective Stupidity will destroy us. Self-serving politics and terrorist abetting news scoops are more important to you than our national security or the lives of innocent civilians and Soldiers. It bothers you that defending ourselves gets in the way of your elitist sport of politics and your ignorant editorializing. There is as much blood on your hands as is on the hands of murdering terrorists. Don't ever doubt that. Your frolics will only serve to extend this war as they extended Vietnam . If you want our Soldiers home, as you claim, knock off the crap and try supporting your country ahead of supporting your silly political aims and aiding our enemies. Yes, I'm questioning your patriotism. Your loyalty ends with self. I'm also questioning why you're stealing air that decent Americans could be breathing. You don't deserve the protection of our men and women in uniform. You need to run away from this war, this country. Leave the war to the people who have the will to see it through and the country to people who are willing to defend it

No, Commander in Chief, you don't get off the hook, either. Our country has two enemies: Those who want to destroy us from the outside and those who attempt it from within. Your Soldiers are dealing with the outside force. It's your obligation to support them by confronting the axis of idiots. America must hear it from you that these people are harming our country, abetting the enemy and endangering our safety. Well up a little anger, please, and channel it toward the appropriate target. You must prosecute those who leak national security secrets to the media. You must prosecute those in the media who knowingly publish those secrets. Our Soldiers need you to confront the enemy that they can not. They need you to do it now

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 20:48:10 (ZULU)

Afternoon Hawgs,

I see were in a pie fight again. Lets all step back and take a deep breath and play nice with each other. After all were all on the same side here.

I agree with Bravo, there are no perfect sticks out there right now. It would depend on the enviroment I was going to fight in as to which weapon I would choose. Out here on the open spaces give me the M1-A in a urban war give me a AR or a AK both would do the job for me because I "WOULD" maintain it.

I would take the AR over the AK because of accuracy and added range. The 7.62x39 is ok in close but looses accuacy and power past 300yds.

I remember a few years back a guy built a BR gun to shoot the 7.62x39 to see how accurate they were. He was surprised to find out that it would rip small holes at 100yds but lost a lot past 300yds. He shot both factory and hand loads as I recall.

Pat
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 20:51:53 (ZULU)

******SNIPERQUEST 2007******

We're baaaaack!!! Keep watching the boxes at the top of all ths SC main pages, including here if you missed it!

Match will be at BadLands Tactical Trianing Facility!

Dates are: September 28-30, 2007

Not to hot, not to cold but ALWAYS windy and can get MUDDY! Red Oklahoma clay, LOVE IT! This one is gonna be FUN!!

As Paul Harvey says, "Stand by for news!"

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 21:06:24 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers,

I guess this means you don't love me anymore :(

Yes, when someone posts rumors, delusions, fairy tales,figments of their imagination, old wives tales, and other unsubstiantiated pieces of flotsam as fact in an attempt to back up a weakly supported claim it tends to piss me off.

What makes it even worse is when they attempt to pass off a vague anecdote out of the past as some kind of revelation, then backpedal it in an attempt to justify their story by setting up some sort of half-assed scenario in order to salvage what might be left of their credibility. That, too, pisses me off.

Then you do a 180, commonly in the same post, and attempt to reclaim whatever might be left of your support base in a mealy-mouthed attempt to lay a guilt trip on those who disagreed with your argument. Shit like "I thought you were my friend" and "I didn't expect that from you" come immediately to mind. You claim innocence out of one side of your mouth while spewing innuendo out of the other.

I'm no shrink, and never played one on TV, but in my way of thinking that's a classic case of passive-agressive behavior that you should probably have checked out, since we seem to be on a kick of suggesting behavioral remedies.

To sum up what I think about you - When this discourse first started I figured you were just reacting to things that were contrary to some of the stuff that you've digested over the years, and that you were having a difficult time handling it. As this pie-fight grew it became clear to me that you've really got a problem! Now I believe that you're just an old bullshit artist who doesn't have the good sense to listen to the truth when he gets it from knowledgeable impartial third parties and isn't man enough to admit when he's wrong.

So in the future just leave me the fuck alone and do yourself a favor by scrolling past my posts if you've got a problem with me or their content. I promise to do the same in return.

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, February 7, 2007, at 23:33:30 (ZULU)

Gentleman,

Charles S. Hunt: Unfortunately, you get nothing but a warm sense of personal satisfaction.

Alan: Of course you can play.

The really sad part of this is I posted the test and miscounted my own score. Ten. I guess I geta zero for the basic math portion.

Man, pie fights are entertaining.

Pat II
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 00:09:02 (ZULU)

CDC = which efforts would that be - leaving his troops hanging in the wind? Never pushing the good we are doing? Never pushing how we are really beating the hell out of the terrorists? Doing absolutely NOTHING about the southern border? Pushing for amnesty for those crossing the border illegally?

He attacked the nutcases, we kicked the crap out of them, now, we have a hands off let the Iraqis do it (results? the locals look at us as ineffective - see Arab culture). Beside that, each and every time someone jabbers Iraq is a quagmire/like VN our illustrious CIC says nada other than hold the course. He has the bulliest of bully pulpits and refuses to do anything that might possibly result in some left wing retard think he (Bush) is less than a kind soul.

As with his father, he started a FEW good things in a great manner, then steadily dropped the ball making a winning position a political media loser.

Brogers: " I apologize for confusing this forum with the truth as I knew it."

Until you blatherd you've shot more autos than any 20 of us (and in conditions we'll not be privy too) I really didn't have an opinion. That gave me a nice opinion - you are a egocentric troll who must imply some super secret ninja background to give "weight" to his "obviously" more extensive background. Based on the disCUSSion taking place (SKS as the centerpiece) I can only ASSume you mean autoloaders. That puts me at somewhere upwards of 20 or so. If you mean fully automatic, it drops to a mere 6 or 7.

ALAN:

A NC jury is a strawman. Direct link - AQ honchos with Iraqi security honchos. Iraq training facilities.

Why not Syria and Iran. Look at a map - Iraq is the perfect jumping off point for both. If the CIC bothered doing his job, we'd have blasted through Iraq and be pounding the snot out of Syria or Iran by now with the other standing next in line.

We haven't had a president in nearly 20yrs. For nearly 20yrs we have had poll taking followers screwing up. Bush was the lesser of 2 evils. Who ever the Republicans nominate (who will be a RINO) will be the lesser of 2 eviles next year. The DemocrateLites (a.k.a. Republicans) forgot what put them in power (Contract With America and solid conservative principles) by paying waaaaaay too much attention to polls taken in DC, NYC, LA, and such cesspools of no-thought.

Sarge:

Who ever wrote that is a genius. He said rather well what I feel about every one of those people. The only complaint I have is he didn't bring the so called "leaders" of the Republican party and the RINO's (see Specter) to task. While the socialist democrates piss me off, the socalled party for national security and conservatism being wallflowers infuriates me.

George
boomtown, T N, - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 01:06:28 (ZULU)

George: You have a lot of intellectual confidence for a guy who can't spell "mainstream". You're also way out of your depth. I wouldn't bullshit you.

jc: I don't know how you get a Lee priming tool to last so long. Mine always go tango uniform after a few thousand rounds. At least it only seems like a few thousand.

Joe M: "Edit" is good.

CDC'
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 01:54:32 (ZULU)

Alan...

One of the tools goes back to the flint lock days (Fred personally autographed it ;) I used to be the largest RCBS dealer east of the Mississippi, and Fred H. sent me a case of black olives every year.

The second is about 3 or 4 years old. It's a goodie too.

They take standard shell holders (need RCBS holders, others might not seat right).

They are the best I have ever used - last year I threw out about $300 worth of the RCBS primer thingies that use the plastic strips... and the thingie that squishes the primers back into the strips to re-use them, and about 400 of the plastic strips that Jay Postman snuck out the back door for me... Looked good, worked badd. I shoulda sold them on eBay, but I was in a cleaning fit and just chucked them.

AK's...

I gots a Galil 308 ARM, and I LOVE IT - it shoots all the time, never quits, and holds Minute of Man to 600yds on a bad day!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 02:00:53 (ZULU)

'Lito, did you have anything to do with these?

http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/BDC_tactical.htm

The Eagle has landed...the TRG-42 arrived tonight. How in the hell can the post office break a Pelican case?

sinister
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 02:05:40 (ZULU)

Yes, George I meant full autos. That was the subject we seemed to be into at the time. Thanks George your instant well thought out opinion is something I will always cherish. You didn't mean to butt in to something that didn't concern you did you? But I don't want to insult you more than I have too. Even a troll has his limits. Your 6 autos is impressive but there you go.... no ninja suit George, you ain't even close.

You guys are really perceptive. It took my wife about 5 or 6 weeks to figure out all that nasty troll stuff about me. Yes Alan, I'm giving you your ring back dear! Hope you and your AR-15 will be happy together but she's just too much competetion for me. I knew it was coming. I just couldn't deal with the way you see through my soul! Somehow I knew that huzzy .223 was going to come between us the way you stroke it night and day and all. It's Ok if you feel the need you can disect my personality along with George there any time you feel the need. I doubt I'll sleep nights but..... life is a disappontment at times. Now that the rest of you know, I'm sure you'll want to refrain from communicating with me. But I'll try to survive. I can always eat billy goats that try to cross my bridge!

Brogers
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 02:33:58 (ZULU)

I like the Sinclair priming tool. It's pretty much indestructable, aside from a tendency of the pivot pin to get loose, but that's easily noticed and corrected. It has good feel, and the action keeps the muscles in my forearm toned. It's almost as good as dry firing a pistol.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 02:59:57 (ZULU)

Since coming to Texas, I have really gotten into this varmint/predator hunting. In fact, I fell in lust with it.

I have my AR 5.56 with EOTEC and a scoped Savage 17HMR my wife bought me last year's birthday.

Should I put a .204 in the middle of my golf bag for this type of hunting, or will the other two well cover most opportunities?

Opinions Please. I am learning not to kill everything with a .308 :)

Took the Grey Fox under my name last April.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 03:40:08 (ZULU)

CDC':

Never said I used that Lee Auto-Prime constantly for that long. It's just the only one of several that lasted the way it has. ;-))

Actually, I really try to take good care of stuff 'cause it annoys me to have to replace things. Well, of course there are exceptions to that.

Alan and BRogers:

Maybe both you guys could just lighten the f*** up a little. Like an old saying goes, "If it ain't life or death it ain't worth worrying about." Yeah, yeah, I know the right weapon could make the difference in a life or death situation, but we aren't to that point yet. If we ever get to a SHTF scenario it may wind up being whatever you can get your hands on at the time. Let's just hope it never gets to that point.

In the meantime let's all play nice.

Whadaya say guys, whadaya say? (in my best Sylvester the cat voice)

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 05:51:10 (ZULU)

PatII....Rats! I was really hoping for something really kewl, like maybe a hand-knitted beer coozie or sumthin'. These days, if I get a warm feeling, it's probably an "accident".

Finger....what's wrong with killing it with a .308? Or are you aspiring to be an "artiste"? Oh, did you get my email? Please tell me you're not just ignoring me. Boudicca has decided she has to "find herself" and I get that enough these days. I'm emotionally fragile, you know. Especially after alienating my amigo BRogers.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 07:04:02 (ZULU)

I thought Rodney King said that after the cops wore his ass like a rented mule? Wasn`t Regenald Denny the guy that got nailed in the head with the brick in the L.A. riots after the OJ trial? I`m jus` saying....

(it`s all I got til you`uns get back to the chainsaw thing. I only got a 1 on the battle rifle quiz. And I ain`t tellin` which one! NAH!)

Steve Racer
Somewhere in Dillsburg, Ed Spendell-Vania, - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 08:43:42 (ZULU)

Sinister...

Cams... Yup. Dat's what I had done did! I haven't spoke with them since I moved, but it's the same data (and it's good).

>"How in the hell can the post office break a Pelican case?"<

Cuz they're the "POST OFFICE"...

Post office motto...

"Neither wind, nor sleet, nor rain, nor snow, nor storm, nor natural catastrophe (nor threats from your lawyer) will keep us from our goal of ruining your stuff!"

I've been up since 3:00 AM and letting the brain wander.

I don't know what the schools in the "Red states" are like, but in this "Blue state" (Connecticut), my son, who is 15, know nothing about the history of wars in the last 300 years. Not the Civil war, WWI, WWII, Korean war nor Viet Nam... nothing except what he has picked up here at home (we're political and history fanatics).

The lunacy of anti-gun (kids can't have a picture of a gun in school, nor a picture of a military family member with a gun)... appears to have extended to books showing war "with guns".

We see the outcome of the last 30 years of this madness now in the middle east. The country thinks we can talk with the madmen, and then sit down and eat falafel and sing Kumbayah.

It's sort of a rhetorical question, but what happens in 10 years when the kids of today that never heard of Gettysburg, The Ardan Forest, Okinawa, Cambodia... wind up with problems wilh cultures who's children well know the arts of armed conflict.

We may have to go to an all black army, cuz they are the only one's that know how to fight.

They don't have a Starbucks on the front lines. Reminds me of the line fron Sgt Benjamin, "I joined the army with condos".

Another rhetorical question... what happens when the people that have to make the decisions in the future, don't know anything about what they're deciding... or do we have that situation now??

There is that ol' sage about those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 09:19:39 (ZULU)

Finger: Don't DO that! When you said you had taken a Grey Fox, I thought you meant you had bagged a member of a certain semi-covert organization. Startled me there for a minute, until I clicked on the picture. :-)

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 13:05:29 (ZULU)

"They don't have a Starbucks on the front lines."

uuuuh, wanna bet a latte?

The FOBs have those in more of them than you want to know about--

(exception to Ken's austere Marine Camps:))

Good lord.

Joe M
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 13:35:20 (ZULU)

Catshooter: The Red and Purple (Pennsylvania, Michigan,...) States still have plenty of good young men who are aquainted with the hard realities, but the Country is running critically short of voters who understand the psychology of an agressor. When Cheryl Crow is applauded for standing on stage and saying, "The best way to deal with enemies is not to have them", you know that innocent people are going to have to pay for her audience's education in blood.

CDC'
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 13:42:36 (ZULU)

Good morning Battle zone;

JC you have no idea how light I am. My pinkie finger is to the heavens but let me tell you all something. It's "no more Mr. Nice Troll". You attack me and call me a liar your gonna get your ass reamed the best way I know how. No I don't call names and spout profanity and I'm not sitting here screaming insults at computer monitor with pulse racing and keyboard smoking but don't think you can make a deal that will allow your cheap shots to go ignored and my passive purring troll nature will ignore it and give you free ride on my ass at my expense. I could prove that thing I told you about the shoot because there were 50 witnesses and only one of them is dead now. I told you that simply because I wanted to brag about being waxed by a bunch of farmers, herdsmen and housewives with the SKS rifles boyonets buried in the sand of that range. Just cause I like to brag I guess. I thought you would derive that maybe it has a lot to do with "method" and practice and less about the model number on your receiver but some of you are more concerned with the reputation of your Mattel toys than the truth as it be. A couple of guys caught on and got the meaning of it all and probably a lot more who are silent and above the kind of foolishness you push on this otherwise prestigious site by you blind ego enforcing insults. No Alan my former friend, you will be NOT immune to my insults if I have a problem with something you say because you blind sided me and that makes your sorry ass a target for my Okie humor as perverted as you think it is. If they throw me off then I'll be gone but the truth is still here. You've shown your colors now fly them with dignity but don't try to hide.

Brogers
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 14:38:59 (ZULU)

Refinger you scoundrel; Those Bend coyotes will put that .17 hmr up your butt if you shoot em with it. The .223 will handle them but seriously the .204 is taking over the game out here. It will eat the others alive in the field. Don't ask why a .20 cal 32 bullet does so well but it's like that fable I told yesterday. It just happens. Lito at my recommendation tried the .204 and it failed miserably for him I guess but that's not been my experience and he don't hunt plains yotes in yankee land. I don't recommend anything but I will tell you that 3 out of 4 serious yoters out here are switching to the .204 and thats not a recommendation that just the "news!"

Brogers
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 14:47:24 (ZULU)

'yotie...

The .204 didn't fail me, the Rem .204 barrel(s) failed me. I was thinkin of putting a .223 barrel on it, but I got 6 or 7 .223's, so I'm gonna put a 28", 10" twist Packy on it and try it again. The cart is a good one (the .204 is the best selling die set for the last two years)... so it can't be badd.

Plus, since my .22-250 is getting upgraded to 6mm, the .204 will have a home.

I won't mention the .17 Fireball I ordered... I'm a glutton for punishment :((

lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 15:48:23 (ZULU)

BRogers,

You are one seriously sick and deranged individual. You'd better go back on whatever meds you were taking. You have the gall to accuse me of hiding? No, it's just that I have a life and have other things to do that are more important than a keyboard duel with a weak old brain-rotted fool who lacks even the sense to shut his mouth when others on this 'site politely ask him too.

I'm going to make my best effort to leave this thing alone 'cause it's going nowhere and doing nothing but harm. Be warned that there's a limit to my patience, Bill. I'll say no more!

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 16:12:59 (ZULU)

I got a bit of information this morning that hit me like a wet washcloth.

I was listening to Glen Beck (who's a real hoot), and he pointed out that Political Correctness originally came from the USSR. If you didn't say the right things about the party or the communist government, you were sent to a "Camp" to be indoctrinated so you would be "Politically Correct". SO in Russa (USSR), you were forced to believe, or at least say you believed the political garbage, or you would be punished... in the USA, you are forced to believe, or at least say you believed the political garbage, or you would be socially punished...

When Ol' Glen said that, it all flashed back from the 50's and 60's when that was a common thing.

How did Communist camps for indoctrination into "Political correctness" become an acceptable social philosophy in America???

CDC, you got some thoughts???

Kidlets... play nice or we will get Ed Hogan back ;)))

We can disagree on guns, women, and cars. We cannot disagree on Rum!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 16:17:52 (ZULU)

Surprise rant:

Can someone explain this to me...

"Husham al-Husainy - an extremist who has a long record of support for prominent Islamists at war with America and Israel." delivers the invocation for the Democratic National Committee.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02062007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/an_ugly_invocation_opedcolumnists_debbie_schlussel.htm

I'm frickin' speechless and about ready to cry...HOW can this be fuckin' happening?

<Shakin' my head slowly> I don't really want to know the answer.

<Nodding my head> I want a solution.

Rant over.

Fred Bittner
PA, USA - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 16:25:01 (ZULU)

Fred...

Man. that's an eye opener!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 16:36:56 (ZULU)

There's one thing that's not in question Alan. Your patience does has its limits. Your threats are noted and being an old brain rotted fart I tremble at the the thought of your anger being dispersed upon me. Is that a physical threat? Gosh. This is a real pie fight and a half isn't it?

Brogers
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 16:44:53 (ZULU)

Fred

Their sneaking in faster than I thought it would happen. I just can't believe the population of this country is letting it happen.

Obama? I don't give a shit how nice he speaks... Jesus H.

My cousin who recently moved out of Michigan told me the other day, Michigan has the biggest concentration of muslims in the world outside the Middle East.

The only answer Fred is a revolution. Burn Mosques and weed em out. Won't happen though. They will claim in any situation religious intolerance from the smallest infraction right up to the end. We will just let it go on here until their numbers are greater than ours and we can all become believers.

They didn't have any Muslims in the Jetsons did they? They must have figured it out somehow.

doug sickels
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 16:56:20 (ZULU)

>They didn't have any Muslims in the Jetsons did they? They must have figured it out somehow.<

Doug, there was that Romulan thing going on in Star Trek though. Must have been a cross-over gene somewhere on the timeline. They had a sorta 'Middle-eastern' look about them. (Whoops, I`m profiling again. My bad.)

Steve Racer
Somewhere in Dillsburg, Ed Spendell-vania, - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 18:06:35 (ZULU)

Steve

That is an astute observation, and I think your right

I heard a line about a week ago in a famous western, I thought I'd put it here just to see who can guess the movie and who said it.

Ready?

"Slap that smoke wagon!"

doug sickels
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 18:25:52 (ZULU)

More of the same...

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/16651764.htm

Admittedly, I didn't find this stuff. I got it off another site that has a "Politics and Religion" forum more aptly named "The Dungeon". Not one to usually suffer the BS heard from the media, frankly, I'm concerned and I'm gonna start paying more attention...If only I knew who was telling the truth. ;)

Fred Bittner
PA, USA - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 18:34:36 (ZULU)

Common and put down that smoke pole Alan; bullets are too damn expensive to waste on somebody that's about to fall in the hole by hiself. Gee's I hear the music now "please don't forsake me oh my darlin!" is it noon yet?

On a more serious note.....

i think I agree with ole Kinky Friedman. We don't want to fence across the southern Texas border cause we may all have to get outta here in about 10 years or so.

Brogers
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 19:05:34 (ZULU)

Bad news for all of you lovers of "Fine genetic lines".

Anna Nicole Smith has just died (but she DID pass on those fine genes :)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 20:48:37 (ZULU)

Doug Sickels:"My cousin who recently moved out of Michigan told me the other day, Michigan has the biggest concentration of muslims in the world outside the Middle East." The location is Dearborn, a 'burb of Detroit. It's been that way for 30+ years. I once dated a woman from Dearborn, mom was 100%, traditional Arab, father was 100%, traditional Irish. I never quite figured out how they made it work. Looking back, I'm not sure it did.

Duman
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 22:10:43 (ZULU)

Fred,

We get Cal Thomas's column here in one of the local papers. His stuff is pretty straightforward and I believe that if he puts the information in his column you could say that it's going to be accurate.

I truly hope that the Dems are stupid enough to put this Islamofool up on stage to give the invocation at their national convention. It will be another step towards the left for them. A step that they can't afford to take. If they allow the crazies in their party to continue this self destructive behavior and keep moving farther and farther away from center the Republicans, as weak as they may be at the present time, have a good chance at the Presidency in 2008 and could even take back some Congressional seats. Add this to Algor running on the Green ticket and you have a disaster in the making for the Dems. If only that would come true!

I wonder how the Jews, who have traditionaly voted Democrat and have filled the Dems coffers with huge amounts of money, will react to this suicidal political move? Are there enough self-hating Jews in the party to retain the Jewish vote? Is the Jewish money going to keep pouring in? I guess we'll have to wait before we find out.

Meanwhile, will the seemingly inept Republicans even be able to capitalize on this Democratic blunder or will they blindly miss this gift in the same manner that they flubbed the opportunities that a Republican controlled House and Senate combined with a Republican White House could have presented?

It looks as if both political parties are more interested in short-term control of the government than they are in the welfare of the American people. Will it be too late for us by the time we get fed up with them and start voting from the rooftops?

Keep digging up this stuff. It's fascinating but frightening.

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 22:42:52 (ZULU)

re: Starbucks in the front lines.

Canadian version of Starbucks (Tim Hortons) has an outlet located at Kandahar Air Field :-) (Alongside various American concessions).

http://www.timhortons.com/en/news/news_archive_2006h.html

I realize KAF is not the front lines.

However, KAF has been mortared on occasion...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060327/Afghanistan_mortars_060327?s_name=&no_ads=

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 22:50:03 (ZULU)

doug sickels,

"I heard a line about a week ago in a famous western, I thought I'd put it here just to see who can guess the movie and who said it.

Ready?

"Slap that smoke wagon!"

Ha! Just watched that movie again last weekend. That would have been Wyatt Earp in Tombstone. But I believe it was, "Skin that smoke wagon and see what happens."

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 22:57:14 (ZULU)

Good Afternoon to All,

has anyone read "A Sniper's Journey" by Gary D. Mitchell? I didn't see it in the reviews and was wondering if anyone would care to comment on it. If someone wants a copy to read and review for SC then I'll send you mine. I have read it but lack the sniping expertise (I'm not one) and the Viet Nam experience (wasn't there, either) to do a good job with it.

Thanks and Good Shooting,

Erik in Kodiak

Erik in Kodiak
Thursday, February 8, 2007, at 23:59:42 (ZULU)

Your 100% correct Robert. I was wrong about the slapping part. It never sounded quite right to me. Did he mention slapping something else in that dialogue?

Unfortunately you don't win anything. Good job!

doug sickels
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 00:16:59 (ZULU)

I've read Mitchell's book.

Very little of it is about sniping. Most of the book is about his battles with PTSD. I didn't find much of interest there. I was there, although not as a sniper, and I know lots of people who lived through much worse, without having it ruin the rest of their lives.

If you're interested in stories about coping with PTSD, then it might interest you. I'll be glad to send my copy to the first person who emails me. If you're really interested in a sniper's story, that isn't it. If you are, read Henderson's book on Hathcock.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 00:24:14 (ZULU)

ALAN,

I checked out a handful of Cal's recent editorials, thanks to you. He seems a little "light" on substance, as if we should already know what he's talking about. As one(me) not previously keeping abreast of the news, his opinions reflect insights I might have a better understanding of had I paid attention. Confirming some of his comments in order to gain faith in his views could be arranged but, that means I would have to do a lot of homework. I'll just keep my eyes and ears open in the future and use his editorials as a partial guide to re-educating myself.

My own insight says these next couple of weeks oughta create some interesting damage contol tactics for the Dems. I won't be buying any of it but I will read it.

______________

Stick country:

Can we still talk about guns? :D

For all practical purposes, I'm a neophyte. The adepts here offer info that is currently beyond my world. I spend hours in HQ reading up and getting a grasp. However, I made my firearms choices years ago. They fell along one line and I'm stickin' to it...what's good for Uncle Sam is better than me. I purposely chose .223, .308 and .45 for the sheer volume of surplus ammo availability, just in case, and stuck with the US arms mfgs, the closer to MilSpecs the better - or so I thought. We'll see what happens as my knowledge and experience grow.

My poor old heavy barrells have seen mostly belt ammo, minus the tracers :D, and aren't scoped that well. They've seen thousands of rounds each already so I don't expect they'll set my world on fire when the budget/schedule allow going to precision ammo and optics. I hope I don't have any thoughtless questions about it when that time comes...this bar seems a bit short on tolerance. :)

______________

Anna, poor, sweet Anna. :(

______________

With regard to our politics, IMO, neither side has our values at heart. Too bad a Common Man can't afford even just the permits to campaign.

Globally...it's difficult not to get sucked into the Illuminati theory when I look at this world.<rolleyes> It's all so wrong.

Out.

Fred Bittner
PA, USA - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 01:40:39 (ZULU)

Fred,

We don't care that you're a neophyte, but we mostly adhere to the don't ask, don't tell policy.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 02:01:36 (ZULU)

hehehe. (i'll assume the smilies were present).

Fred Bittner
PA, USA - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 02:31:16 (ZULU)

CatWhacker: "How did Communist camps for indoctrination into "Political correctness" become an acceptable social philosophy in America???"

It has a whole history with theory of social and political goals, desired "raising of revolutionary consciousness", methods, etc. It was bought into big time by the academic Left. Lani Guineer (sp?) was the high priestess.

Makes me tired.

CDC'
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 02:37:19 (ZULU)

Midway has Remmy 700-SA BO 20-MOA base on sale:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=562717

Duman
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 02:43:48 (ZULU)

Complaining about something and doing very little to actively resolve the problem...is that WHINING?

I've been infiltrating the local board of education for the last two years...I'm thinking of running for one of those 'elected' spots in a few years. Should be rather 'fun'.

medicjim
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 02:57:54 (ZULU)

doug,

Don't recall him saying anything about slapping, he did slap the guy he was talking to.

I have to confess, I cheated. I have the movie on DVD and I've watched it at least a dozen times. :)

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 03:24:19 (ZULU)

Sarge,

You shamelessly stole the article by J.D. Pendry, and I shamelessly enjoyed it. He is dead on the money. We are in deep doo here as a result of the folks he comlained about.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
City?, KY, USA - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 03:48:25 (ZULU)

medicjim: "Complaining about something and doing very little to actively resolve the problem...is that WHINING?"

I'm not real good with decoding circumlocution. What, specifically, are you talking about?

CDC'
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 03:55:10 (ZULU)

Fred,

As long as you're up for checking out some columnists you might check out James Lileks. Of course there's always Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter. If you're not familiar with these folks this should keep you busy for awhile :)

I think your choice of calibers makes great sense. Most here probably started with them and they still form the basis for what's commonly in the gun safes of most Hawgs. For example, you get a factory heavy barrel .308 and mount some run of the mill glass on it. You shoot the heck out of it, learning what it will do and at the same time learning your shooting skills. By the time you can out shoot it you'll find it's time to have it rebarreled, possibly a professionally bedded stock and some good glass and mounts. Then comes the loading stuff. By the time you get that far you'll probably be broke, but you won't care 'cause you're having so much fun. So welcome to the club and enjoy the addiction ;)

ALAN

Alan
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 04:31:47 (ZULU)

Alan:

"By the time you get that far you'll probably be broke"

I don't know about the rest of you, but I passed "broke" a long time ago. And with the price of bullets continually going up I may have to resort to throwin' rocks. Bummer!

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 05:03:40 (ZULU)

Lindy,

yeah, that was pretty much what I got out of it too. As long as a movie isn't made of it (ala "Jarhead"). I have a fair number of Gunny Hathcock's books, I tended to get them while he was still signing them to benefit various shooting clubs. He is sorely missed. I was hoping to see some newer books on the subject but "Journey" is a swing and a miss. I wonder if the word sniper isn't in the title since "recovery mechanic" might not have sold as well....

Take Care and W6,

Erik

Erik in Kodiak
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 07:47:45 (ZULU)

Good deals on Warne Rings and bases on E-bay right now. Click my name

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 14:00:22 (ZULU)

No... I have not tried to take a Yote with the 17HMR. I was afraid it wouldn't anchor it well enough. But........ I have been hearing testament to both sides, saying it does hit them effectively and that it lets them crawl off and suffer. If the latter is the case, I wouldn't try, even if I can "artistically" place that bullet in the Yote's boiler room.

What is the experience here? Stay with the .223 on Yotes and Cats?

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 14:32:50 (ZULU)

What ever become of the RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE...?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 15:00:21 (ZULU)

Jim...

For yotes, pass on the 17 HMR. The .223 will anchor them fine.

Cats... did anyone say "CATS"???

;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 15:56:54 (ZULU)

Finger,

I tried my brand spankin' new CZ452 in .17HMR on a 'yote when I first got it a few years ago contrary to the advice of several on this forum. I should have listened. Once was enough and I'll never try that again. A .223 will handle 'em them with no problems !

Just my .02 from my limited experience with it.

ALAN

Alan
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 16:29:49 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito and Allen,

Thats what I figured. I will keep the .17 HMR for the real small stuff.

Gotta go mix some Black Gold and corn for tonight and Prep the .308.

TGIF and Momma is off to Christain Ladies Retreat for two days.......SO.. TIME TO STAY OUT AND HUNT PIGGIES TONIGHT :D

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 16:43:09 (ZULU)

Finger,

I have killed a lot of yotes and have used a lot of different calibers to do it. My all time favorite round for our yotes is a .243 with a 65 vmax or a 70grBT. You just can't beat them for killing power. I am like you, if I shoot something I want it to die and not suffer I figue I owe it to what I hunt to make a clean kill when possible.

The .223 is a fine round if you get them in to 150yds, past that they have a tendency to run off and die. With the .243s they stay where their hit. It also gives you the edge to reach out there and thump one that will hang up at 300 to 400yds and not come in. You have the power to kill him at that range easily. Just my thoughts on it hope this helps.

Pat
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 17:06:34 (ZULU)

Thanks for the names, Alan.

Ms. Coulter seems the more interesting of the bunch. A combination of my wife's intellect and my irreverance...but that's just me.

Textbook factual readings and investigative reportings are more my style for gathering the news/info...it's hit or miss. I do like the pics in glossy periodicals, tho'. :)

Fred Bittner
PA, USA - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 18:41:22 (ZULU)

The 6.8mm SPC certainly looks interesting. Have any of you tried it? Think it will catch on?

I think Bravo is still holding his breath for the Grendel to take off..... :8-)

Duman
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 20:01:39 (ZULU)

Alan,

You have mail. Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I just don't check my hotmail much anymore. I gave you my aol address. Sorry!!!!

Pat
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 20:07:36 (ZULU)

WARNING: LONG POST

From a soldier in Iraq, a friend of a friend.

========================================================

I'm tired of hearing the media's skewed version, the politicians squabbling over what they read in a report, and the average ill-informed American ranting about things he knows NOTHING about.

I've been over here a couple of months now, and I've learned more about this country than a year's worth of watching CNN. I've sat in mission briefs with Colonels, talked with village elders, had tea with Shieks, played with the kids. And I agree with the President. We need more troops and we need to take greater action.

There are 3 major factions here. The Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds. The Shiites are in the majority, but Saddam was a Sunni, so he kept the Shiites in check. Everyone hates the Kurds, who are Christian and in the vast minority. The Kurds received the brunt of Saddam's murderous tyranny. Now that Saddam is gone, the Shiites have taken control of Baghdad . The largely peaceful Sunnis are now the victims of radical Shiite terrorism. So the young Sunni men, who can no longer go to work and support their families, do what all young men would do They join the Sunni militia and battle the Shiites. And thus the country sits on the brink of civil war.

But this war is between them. They largely do not concern themselves with the U.S. troops. The insurgents who battle the Coalition Forces are from outside the country. And the biggest problem down here isn't the insurgents. Its the politicians The local politicians. Even though the country is controlled by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, downtown Baghdad is controlled by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. The Shiites follow al-Sadr and thus the Prime Minister does what al-Sadr says. Think of it as if a warlord controlled New York and blackmailed the President into diplomatic immunity.

When 1st Cav (mainly 2/5 Cav) came here in 2004, they took downtown Baghdad (known as Sadr City ) by force. It cost many lives, but after a year, we held an iron grip on the largest insurgent breeding ground in Iraq . The insurgents were afraid of the Horse People, and rightfully so. But when 1st Cav left, al-Sadr influenced the Prime Minister to kick out the Coalition forces from that area of Baghdad . He said the Iraqi military forces could hold the city. But all that happened was al-Sadr regained control of his cty, and it is now a heavily guarded fortress. A place where insurgents and terrorists can train and stockpile arms. And we cannot go back in because the Prime Minister won't let us. Our hands are tied.

So where does al-Sadr get his backing? >From Iran and Syria . Iran supplies him with money and Syria supplies the terrorists. The insurgents that battle the Coalition Forces are from Syria , Somalia and dozens of other places outside of Iraq . Iraq is literally a terrorist breeding ground. They have terrorist and sniper schools here. Why not? They train by teaching them to attack the military forces here. And they have an endless supply of these training tools. They have factories in Sadr City to build bombs. Both Iran and Syria have openly proclaimed their number one goal in life is to destroy the great Western Devil and the little Western Devil ( America and Britain ). Iran wants to control Iraq to further this purpose. Al-Sadr will get to "run" the country and live like a king, but in reality Iran will pull the puppet strings. Iran will have access to thousands of radical Shiites who will do whatever al-Sadr tells them to. And Iraq will be used as a breeding ground for terrorism. Terrorism that will be targeted directly at America and Britain . The Iraq Study Group advised we should let Iran and Syria help with rebuilding? Bravo to President Bush for striking that idea down and vowing to keep those two countries out of Iraq .

So how do the Iraqi people feel about everything? Of course they don't want the Americans here. But they would far rather have us here than the Iranians. My platoon visited an average Sunni village on a patrol a few days ago. Their only source of income was to farm, as they could not go to the city to work for fear of violence. Many of the young men had already run off to join the militia for no other reason than to feed their families. They had no school or hospital near them and the community was dying. The village elder's granddaughter was very sick and I was able to treat her. Afterwards he invited me and my Platoon Leader to sit in his house and have tea with him, and we talked about the situation

The people want peace. The Shiites kill the Sunnis because al-Sadr tells them to do so. The Sunnis fight back because they have no choice. They are glad Saddam is dead (Sunni or not), but do not want to replace him with another dictator in a politician's clothes (which is what al-Sadr will become). And they especially don't want Iran in charge. Many innocent Iraqis will die if this happens. These are the words that came out of the elder's mouth:

"We do not want America here, and America does not want to be here. But you cannot leave because the militias control the country. America must use the might of its giant army and sweep through, root out and destroy the militias. Then Iraq can be free and you can leave."

What appears to have happened within our diplomatic community, is that Prime Minister finally realizes that his days are numbered. If al-Sadr remains, he will be kicked to the curb. So hopefully he is about to allow us to reenter Sadr City , root out and destroy the enemy. A dramatic troop increase will allow us to do this. And the Horse People are back and ready to finish what they started over 2 years ago.

If we leave now, it will be a failure for democracy. Iran will control Iraq and the end result will be more terrorist attacks on America . The American people don't want soldiers dying over here, but its better than American civilians dying over there. Do NOT forget 9/11. They will do it again. The moment we loosen our grip on the noose, they will do it again. And the only way to root out the evil here is to stop beating around the bush, increase troops and destroy the insurgents once and for all. The Iraqi government cannot do this on their own. The Iraqi security forces are inadequate for this task. We are the only ones who can stop al-Sadr.

Feel free to share this with whomever wants a real soldier's opinion about the war.

=====================================================

And on it goes......

Duman
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 20:27:04 (ZULU)

Dewman...

6.8 SPC (aka .270-08). It's already on the wain. No need for it.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 20:55:57 (ZULU)

Travis: Did not forget; you should expect delivery by mid week next week. Hopefully, sooner. Me and the post office don't meet often:))

Duman: Thanks for sharing that. Makes my day to see the younger street fighters "get it." Or, mostly get it due top the narrow sector of war troops get. It seemed to me to be the perspective of a company-level troop. Those are the guys who really boil shit down to the fewest brass tacks as possible.

Joe M
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 21:06:16 (ZULU)

Jim,

After your comment, "TIME TO STAY OUT AND HUNT PIGGIES TONIGHT :D". I remembered a good joke: A little boy walks up to his granddad and asks for $5 to get a Guinea pig. The Granddad hands him a ten and tells him to find a nice irish girls instead!

Enjoy. BTW, if this joke offends you, get over it. You'll probably find it funnier if you interchange the ethnic groups.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 21:19:00 (ZULU)

Fred: Some web resources for your reading enjoyment:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/

--James Taranto's daily blog-style irreverent commentary on the left and current events.

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

--Neal's nuze five days a week--basically, his referenced program notes for his daily show. He mines the same sites I do and links the best of what he finds at the bottom.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

--a left/ right compilation of editorials and analysis. The left is included if only to highlight some crazy crap--it is definate right-leaning.

http://www.drudgereport.com/

OK, most folks think this one is 90% tabloid BS; but look under the links to the stories. There you will find AP breaking, london dailies, a very comprehensive set of links to the opinion columnist's pages (Peggy Noonan hasn't been mentioned here in while, but you will find her, along with Cal Thomas, Mark Steyn, etc). Great place to start "linking" a whole new set of perspectives.

That ought to occupy your crapper time for weeks on end!

Travis: being Irish, I am offended. Irish girls (in the form of xwives number 1 and 2) cost me a helluva bunch of tens. Stacks of the damned things, in trunks and boxes...thru lawyers and lost assets. You get the picture:))

Almost got a dreaded Beretta 92F today. Trade for a Mosin Nagant??? Dude is "thinkin' it over." I like the guy so i told him it wasn't exactly an even trade. He is still interested (I have a pretty one, but still...)

Joe M
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 21:42:03 (ZULU)

Dunman

Thanks for putting that up. Hope he stays safe

Doug

doug sickels
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 22:19:36 (ZULU)

6.8mm SPC is about as good as it gets in the M16 platform, not much other reason for it IMO. But that reason alone is enough.

I doubt Sadr is getting money from the Syrians, they're backing the FRE types and Sunnis in general. Sadr is Shia, as are the Iranians. The Kurds are Sunni, not Christian, those are the Asyrians, who largely left or are leaving Iraq. Other than that, not much I can argue with. I was there when the Cav left. That was just after the crushed Fallujah and held the 1st elections and I thought we had it turned about. But, as usual, we rested on the verge of victory and failed to follow through with killing off the savages properly. And here we are, again. Maybe we'll kill enough this time. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 22:28:48 (ZULU)

Pat,

Got your reply, and back at ya through your new address. Thanks :)

ALAN

Alan
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 22:34:21 (ZULU)

Thanks, Joe M.

Gotta go spend a week with the wife...I'll get to 'em, tho'.

Fred Bittner
PA, USA - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 22:42:16 (ZULU)

Fred: Just a week? Dang--I'm stuck for the rest of my natural life:))

Ken M: Come'on up for some dinner when your TAD is up. I'm thinkin' the range maintenance/ spring cleaning will be done by the time you get settled in...

Joe M
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 22:51:14 (ZULU)

Joe,

Was hopin' you hadn't forgotten, but figured it'd be rude to bitch about someone not doing me a favor fast enough. You still have my address?

BTW, just found out they snuck around and got married Dec. 10. Kinda pissed us all off. I sorta planned on scaring the hell out of the groom before he married my prettiest girl cousin.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, February 9, 2007, at 22:53:21 (ZULU)

Travis: No confirmation yet--but wife has the box and was last seen heading to the PO today. I told her to post it priority--so Tuesday may be more likely delivery. Numbers are enclosed to phone arrival so i can close the action off the to-do list; and yep--I had yer address in my AKO email still. Retrieved it last night since my girls turned the original printed copy into "art." Heheh---Bravo has learned my "trips to town" are very, very infrequent for the same reasons. In fact, his next box is "next." Then, I may even double up with one for Rod R...

Guinea pig....missed that one first read-thru:)) Prior to catching on, I was only 75% offended. Now I am a whopping 100% victimized:))

Yeah, i r sloe...

Note to self: next time I retire--do so when the babes are out of diapers.

Joe M
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 23:21:13 (ZULU)

Joe M, will do.

Anyone have experience with the Steyr .50cal rifle?? CDNN has em cheap and they seem interesting. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Friday, February 9, 2007, at 23:40:38 (ZULU)

Ken the Austrians got their dick slapped for selling 800 Steyr 50s to the Iranians.

3 guesses who they're going to be used against.

sinister
Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 03:06:22 (ZULU)

On future weapons, I just saw the Accuracy International AS-50. I've GOT to have one of those! Supposed to be capable of 30" groups @ 2,000 yds.. With me behind it, it's doubtful. Pretty cool stick, though. Especially @ 27 lbs. (empty). Anyone know if they're commercially available, and how much they'll cost?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 03:39:09 (ZULU)

50 cals:

For me, the choice comes down to two possibles: The AR50, or--

http://www.bluegrassarmory.com/

The bluegrass is interesting, cuz with a lefty I could, in my hypothetical world, get the second shot off a tad faster. I guess Ruuuu(ger) had the same idea too---that new vermin gun has a leetle slot left side for the same reason.

I heard somewhere that the HS (Steyr) has stock cracking issues. Ain't sure about that set up on the mount, either. Looks a bit cheesy in pics.

Woulda been resolved by now--except for that GAP riffle "I had to have right now." Probably will add the 1/2" bore before May now...:))

(reloading kit...50 cal...baby 45s...poor house)

Joe M
Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 03:59:19 (ZULU)

Joe M...

AR-50 all the way. IT is a hoot to shoot with that bigassed muzzle break (also known as a condo for pigeons). I have fired over 150 rounds in a day with no after effects (like drooling in your oatmeal from shock!).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 04:17:41 (ZULU)

Lito said:

"I have fired over 150 rounds in a day with no after effects (like drooling in your oatmeal from shock!)."

What about the shock of having to borrow gas money after shooting 150 rounds of .50 BMG?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 11:44:18 (ZULU)

Lito

"6.8 SPC (aka .270-08)" 6.8 is not based on the .308 case, but the old 30 Remington which has a smaller rim size. The parent cartridge was used in the Remington 14A a Slide (pump) action as far back as 1912 in the reference book I have reviewed. Think of it as a autoloading .30-30. I agree it is fairly anemic in a bolt rifle when other cartridges are so popular. In an AR it may show promise, but the 7.62x39 has been made to work in ARs and is cheaper. Neither is a long range number IMHO.

Jerry

Jerry
Annapolis, MD, USA! - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 12:37:42 (ZULU)

Travis...

>" What about the shock of having to borrow gas money after shooting 150 rounds of .50 BMG?"<

Sticker shock on these guns (and the feeding there of) can get your attention. Most buyers of 50 BMG's shoot them a few times, and then hang it over the mantelpiece for conversation.

Jerry...

You are right - they resurrected the 30 rem case.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 13:43:08 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt: Valmet

I had a Valmet M76, fixed stock, stamped receiver, chambered for 223. Great rifle. I put a EAW sidemount with a custom base on mine. Accuracy was about 1.25moa with Sako 55gr FMJ-ammo. Sub moa with 52gr SHPM. I was allowed to carry it on some military outings. It's without doubt the easiest rifle to maintain in the field I've ever owned. Sold it for good money before it was completely worn out. Kept the mags for a long time and intended to get a "new" one. Could not find one. Evntually I sold the mags for more money than I got for the rifle..

A friend still have one with the folding stock. It's even better.

I've never understood why this rifle never hit it bigtime. Probably timing. I've now tested a G36 and if I had to go to A'stan I would have chosen the Valmet. You can kill a man with the folding stock on the Valmet wich say something about the ruggedness.

The Valmet is one of those guns that you instantly can trust your life with.

BTW: The Danish special forces in A'stan now are being issiued with STI Tactical 2011. It's the largest single order ever for STI.

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 15:23:10 (ZULU)

Sinister, yep, I should have remembered that. So Steyr is out.

Although it still leaves the question of their performance/quality.

Guess, I'll just save up for a McMillan, the AR 50 is too heavy for my needs. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 16:07:36 (ZULU)

I am sitting here listening to Obama making his announcment and about to puke on my lap.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 16:25:21 (ZULU)

Jim...

>"I am sitting here listening to Obama making his announcement and about to puke on my lap."<

This next two years is gonna be a kindergarten fire drill.

All the political garbage is pouring out of the woodwork.

No one with a dime's worth of brains would get into the presidency anymore - there are plenty of capable leaders, but they have better things to do with their time than have their personal past and their families lives dragged threw the mud.

The media now runs the country. The "Third estate" has become the "First estate" and the presidency has become a puppet to opinion polls and political correctness.

And I'm an optimist today.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 17:04:16 (ZULU)

Finger,

A Hillary/Obams ticket in 2008 will really test the American people as to which direction this country is going. The time is coming for a showdown. Maybe better sooner than later!

6.8 SPC country,

I got a hold of an LTR in 6.8 SPC (belonged to a friend) last summer and played with it for a little while. Ammo was expensive and hard to get. Didn't do much load development, I didn't have it in my hands for very long. Noticed the following -

The Remington 115gr OTM (115 SMK?) factory ammo showed decent accuracy out to 300M, which was the limit of my testing. It needed fewer come-ups to get there than the 7.62x39 (a Mini Mk 10 Mauser) and was the more accurate of the rifles that were at hand. Both were equipped with decent glass.

Attempts to drive the 135SMK in handloads were a failure, as the case lacked the powder room to drive it to acceptable velocities. The owner of the LTR, an experienced handloader quickly gave up. The 115SMK's were not available as components at the time.

Tried the 6.8SPC in a Barrett that showed up at the range during testing with another shooting buddy. The Barrett made much more sense in this chambering than it did in a bolt gun. Accuracy was good, functioning was 100% reliable, price was out of hand!

I don't have to take a 6.8 into harms way but I question any great advantages it might have over a 5.56 with its M262 77SMK loading in practical use. IMO, it's entirely possible that the performance of the 5.56 with its 77SMK and 75 Hornady military loadings might be the reason for the stagnation of the SPC cartridge in the hands of our military. I've been waiting to see if this cartridge gains further acceptance but it seems to be going nowhere.

Neither of the owners of the 6.8 Barrett or the 6.8 LTR still own them.

Just some observations since the subject came up :)

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 17:14:54 (ZULU)

One of my brothers from my unit in Vietnam sent me this bolg this morning. (E-mail group from 3rd Force Recon 65-70) His question was why don't we hear these things on the news, instead of hours on Anna Nicole Smith. Blog under my name. My response below.

Because, the biggest fear of the "left" right now is the success of the troops in Iraq. God forbid, that Bush's plan, although late, succeeds. Do you really think this fight not to fund the war is about saving military lives? I am a news-holic and I find myself switching to something else to avoid the BS. You're right Larry, I could give a shit about a fat, half plastic bimbo, Playboy has-been, without a brain, who probably weakened her system with all kinds of chemicals.

Fox will be the only network to report it, if it has any good sources. Did you see how the Fox reporters were treated at the anti-war rally? They ain't perfect, but better than the rest.

I never thought that I would be more concerned than I was when there was a chance that Gore would be President. It just keeps getting worse. Problem is, I don't get no warm fuzzies off any of the leading Republican candidates either.

I'll get off my box guys, sorry, I didn't have my coffee yet.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 17:19:17 (ZULU)

Jim: Reading history, it's my conclusion that every great country and people hav had at least two civil wars. Every war has a catalyst. Perhaps we're seeing the beginning of a catalyst that propels the next change. Hopefully, we'll still be young enough to play.

Anna Nicole was no Adrienne. I'm still fixated on that topic! Having difficulty with the new AR10. Using my 168's/46gr Varget frim the bolt gun, it's ripping past the case rim. That, I can understand, too hot, Varget's pressure curve is still up there when the extractor is trying to pull the case out and it's still gripping the case wall. I went to some generic white box Winchester, and now it's not tossing the empty out and I'm getting it stuck in the gas key area. Every other surplus ammo I've tried does the same thing. So, I stopped with the bolt gun ammo, but does anyone have a 150 gr load with LC cases that is reliable in a 16" AR10? Thanx.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 17:50:30 (ZULU)

Charles...

>"Anna Nicole was no Adrienne."<

You got that right - I'll take Adrienne any day.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 18:10:33 (ZULU)

As for the US Postal Service -- oh, never mind, you shouldn't write or hit "Send" when you're angry...

Torf, the STI 2011s are great pistols. I have one that is both exceptionally accurate and reliable (with 14 + 1 in our US 45 Automatic). The 40s and 9mms carry even more cartridges in the same size package. The Danes chose well.

The United States needs a general who knows how to, and fights unrestrained against a foe who won't quit until he knows the price is extermination. It took Lincoln how many generals and how long to find Grant and Sherman?

Extremist Muslims won't quit. They'll need to be killed off or put into a box where they can't affect civilized cultures.

I'm not worried about our country -- we'll always find folks who think like us. It's in our DNA and our culture. The nation was born rebels, and our anthem was written in battle. Our future does not lie with the spawn of quitters and those who would willingly enslave themselves.

What I do worry about is the clever clandestine bastard who takes on the lifetime role of terrorist/anarchist and doesn't care who he kills.

It seems many we're sending out aren't fighting a war -- we're deploying targets. Our SOF "Gets it," when the CG states, "There are two kinds of Soldier on the battlefield. Marksmen, and targets."

75s and 77s are both very good in mouse guns, and the 73s were even better. The only thing that kept us from going fleet-pure on 73s at the time was the fact that Walt Berger was retiring from the bullet business and no one knew if it was going to be bought up and if production was going to be closed or not. Berger Bullets in California is in business and has been in full-production for a few years now. The 73s are great in 5.56.

The AR platform is far from perfect, but it is functional. It's affordable, easy to modify, and it's in production by how many first-line and after-market producers now?

Kinda like the M1911. 2011 marks 100 years of uninterrupted production. How many companies make basic 5-inch M1911A1 knock-offs?

What other platform has been copied so prolifically once the original patent owner's rights expired (hmmm, Mauser, AK, and what else)?

Charles, if I can, I'd recommend you get a Tubb Superior Shooting Systems Carrier Weight System and drop the plug and tungsten slug in the back end of the bolt carrier. Then get a heavy "Slash" buffer on top of that as well. The added weight will keep the bolt carrier group locked slightly longer (as pressure builds enough to overcome static inertia and your case walls shrink back from full obturation against the chamber walls). You will get more noticeable but smoother "Rock" because the whole bolt group will have more inertia (we're talking about adding nearly six ounces total weight to the reciprocating mass of the entire bolt group). Your brass will also get beat up less. You might want to back down to around 44 of Varget (46 will drive that 168 fast in a longer bolt gun).

Fellas, remember those are mostly youngsters out there truly fighting at the tip of the spear. Kids in their teens and twenties in ground combat units, and some fellas in their mid 20s to 30s in SOF and flying helicopters are the folks taking it in the face. It is a young man's game, and even today I cannot confidently say we give them all the training they need to win the first 30 seconds of a meeting engagement.

Nice sniper photos:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60594

sinister
Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 18:33:51 (ZULU)

Sinister's recommendation of the CWS for the AR10 is a good one. I had one made by my local suppressor guy, and Black Hills 175 Match cycled fine through my GAP AR10 with it in there. I don't have the rifle anymore, not because it wouldn't shoot, but because I didn't enjoy shooting it. I kept it long enough to make sure I could make it work, which is much harder than shooting a bolt gun well. But I'm too old to do much that I don't enjoy.

The country will survive a Democrat Presidency, if that happens. Remember that Jimmy Carter got us Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton got us Bush II - who's not my favorite guy, but is still a LOT better than Al Gore would have been.

I don't know enough about him, but Mike Huckabee of Arkansas looks somewhat promising. Time will tell. Arkansas, though...

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 18:59:07 (ZULU)

Charles, I haven't loaded .308 in years, or anying thing else for all that matter. But..... when I did, the best consistant loads I ever got were from IMR 4064. I'd have to look it up, but I wanna say with about 41 grains w/ 168 grain bullets. Now how that would function in a semi I am not sure. You would have to adjust for 150 I am also sure. I just remember the consistency I got with that blue can.

I guess I will just shut up, cause there is a whole lot more current reloading experience here than me.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 19:05:55 (ZULU)

41.5 gns IMR 4895, 168SMK, 2.800", GI brass. Or if you like ball powder, AA 2520. I used tens of thousands(4 barrels worth) of those back in the day S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 19:42:09 (ZULU)

Adrienne...

Like a dead heat in a zepplin race

Well said Sinister and great pictures

doug sickels
Saturday, February 10, 2007, at 22:27:11 (ZULU)

doug...

>"Like a dead heat in a zeppelin race"<

You started my day off in the right direction - thanks ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, February 11, 2007, at 16:07:43 (ZULU)

OK, did the rapture hit? Where everybody go?

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2007, at 16:37:30 (ZULU)

Gents,

Back from yesterday's sniper match. Bad news awaited. The small rifle club I belong to has had it's range shut down. Perhaps, permanently. At present I'm trying to sort out what has happened. Some membership infighting, some neighbor/noise complaints, and the fact that the Elks lodge is in financial trouble and may see selling off the property as a stop gap measure. If this happens it will mean we lose the only nice 600 yard KD range in the valley. At present the gates are padlocked and no access is allowed. That only leaves the other club I belong to as a place to shoot...and it only has rifle ranges to 200 yards...;-(

Interesting day and courses of fire at the sniper match. Shooter only, no spotters, no sighters. You danced with what ya brung...

Six Stages:

Stage 1: Unstable shooting platform...a hoot. Platform suspended on four points. Shooter mounted the platform/platform released. Shooter charges weapon and takes five shots on targets to 300 yards. The farther the target/hit the higher the score. Ninety seconds.

Stage 2: Snap shots. Pick up rifle, assume a position, and hit a man sized steel target at 300 yards. Highest number of hits/fastest time wins. 5 rounds/fire one rounds per evolution. Had strobes attached that "blinked" when the target was hit. Good idea/very visual.

Stage 3: "Know your limits". 3 head/chest silhouette targets at 200 yards. You pick which target to shoot. Smaller the target higher the point value. Low crawl to shooting point (in 60 seconds)and fire five rounds in 60 seconds. Very challenging.

Stage 4: Movers. Assume position of choice and fire five rounds on the mover from 75 yards. Target was a bullseye pistol target mounted on an IDPA silhouette target on pulleys. No perfect scores.

Stage 5: Golf balls at 100 yards. Five rounds from the prone. Balls were placed on wooden blocks with golf tees inset on them. You had to hit the ball, but leave the tee/block assembly in place for the points. NO perfect scores. It turned out to be challenging and fun. "Friends of the Golf Balls" showed up to protest at the main gate...

Stage 6: Unknown distance target. One shot/one kill. You had ninety seconds to get into position, set up, find the target(s), and range them. Time ended and you had sixty additional seconds to fire one shot. Two targets were presented at approx 450/500 yards across and into an rock quarry. One large and one small. Small target was worth double the points.

One of the regular shooters works for Leupold and they had given a set of bino's, 8 ball caps, and some other items for prizes. Nice touch. Nice plaques for top five finishers and a 24" trophy for match winners in the Semi-Auto AND Bolt gun categories.

Overall match score win was with a bolt action .308. Gas guns and Bolt guns were about a 50/50 mix. Several DPMS .308's. Cartridges of choice were .223 and .308. A few lost souls shot .243 Winchester and one brave soul shot a 6.8 Remington on an AR platform. He took second in the gas gun category.

Observation. Most "misses" were just barely that. Pointing out the old saw of the "smaller the target the smaller the group".

More later...I'm on duty in bit and have to run.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2007, at 17:17:56 (ZULU)

Bleck!!! I just got a Romulan AK47. Rats, I really wanted a shoulder fired disruptor:))

The PSO-1 Iraqi clone ON-M76 scope slaps right on though. There is that until I come up with a SVD-clone. And no, I do not "like" these things or think I'll win matches with one. I do, however, like things military that I have a "history" with (being on the receiving end counts, doesn't it?)...and, of course, the price was perfect. Free. I doubt I'll equal that same price point for the SVD though:((

Hey Yote: Ha! I gots one now! (the M-best-thing-since-sliced-bread-4 will easily run circles around it for my needs)

AR50 per Lito's recommendation...gotta get me one before they get outlawed. I hear tell you can shoot down space shuttles with one:))

(disclaimer for the lurking anti gunners: No you cannot effectively target space shuttles or even, for that matter, piper cubs with these heavy-assed long range target guns)

But that will not stop the leftist agenda from outlawing .50s anyway. This is my next big ticket purchase for that reason alone...

Joe M
Sunday, February 11, 2007, at 22:23:35 (ZULU)

Any of you guys know about the Eberlestock packs. Got built in gun carrying stuff.

http://www.eberlestock.com/Tactical%20Master.htm

Thought it might be time to add another (ANOTHER???) backpack to my collection of ALICE packs.

Joe M...

When you get ready to order it, lemme know, cuz I've worked out all the gotta have stuff.

When getting the scope rail, get he 60MOA taper, not the 15mMOA taper.

Barret makes a set of Picatinny (cross slot)mounts that are adjustable in tilt - from +100MOA to -100MOA... so you get a scope that has a lotta elevation and then set it up so the 100yd zero is at the bottom of the travel. Then its ALL UP HILL FROM THERE (I made a punny ;)

I have one of the original B&L 10X tac scopes on mine and it has 145MOA of elevation. Set up as above, I can get a dead hold (no holdover) at any range out to 2700 meters (about the total width of my friggin' state :((

With a Wilde optical rangefinder (or an AN/GVS-5), it's plug and play as far as you can see.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, February 11, 2007, at 22:36:32 (ZULU)

Who the hell makes a drop-in case length gauge for 338 Lapua? Doesn't look like Wilson or Jones.

sinister
Monday, February 12, 2007, at 03:33:13 (ZULU)

Wes,

Get ahold of the NRA. They actually have programs to help keep existing ranges open.

Lito,

E-bay has some of the packs and accessories you're looking for.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, February 12, 2007, at 04:07:26 (ZULU)

sinister,

I understand that Wilson might make one for you on a custom order. I've had them do other custom stuff and their prices weren't too bad.

L.E. Wilson, Inc, P.O.Box 324, Cashmere, WA 98815 (509)782-1328

It sure wouldn't hurt to call them and ask ;)

ALAN

Alan
Monday, February 12, 2007, at 04:21:05 (ZULU)

"OK, did the rapture hit? Where everybody go?"

Somehow, I don't think the rapture would have much effect on SCDR.... ;-)

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, February 12, 2007, at 05:08:55 (ZULU)

Gentlemen: What is the measurement between a an AR's sight line and the centerline of the bore?

Iran is hopping mad that someone who may be associated with us grabbed one of its "diplomats".

That's pretty funny.

CDC'
Monday, February 12, 2007, at 13:45:38 (ZULU)

CDC,

The sight line from the center of the bore measures 2.5" with the sights at the factory recommended zero setting.

ALAN

Alan
Monday, February 12, 2007, at 14:26:57 (ZULU)

Gents,

Morgue, we are aware of the NRA programs. One of the issues is that the charter for the Elk's club is getting in the way. We are working on this, but, at present, I don't hold out much hope.

Not sure I'd call our state "sniper" match that, but it was a decent test of skills.

Sinister, I'm not aware of anyone making a drop in case length gauge for the .338 Lapua. I would think that with a good reamer any decent shop could make one. In fact, I'll bet even AMTU folks could whip one up for you...just for old times sake...;-)

Personally, I use a vernier caliper to gauge mine, but I doubt I'm going to be doing the amount of shooting/loading that you will be doing.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Monday, February 12, 2007, at 18:06:30 (ZULU)

Travis,

Good suggestion, the NRA Range Development professionals are really knowledgeable. I worked with them during a range 'shutdown' operation.

Duman
Monday, February 12, 2007, at 20:36:48 (ZULU)

Lito,

I am looking at getting the Skycrane. If I get it I'll report back.

Was also looking at their JustOne pack which is pretty much the same thing but comes in hunting camo fabric instead of single color. It also has some slightly differnt features to it.

LTChip
Monday, February 12, 2007, at 22:23:20 (ZULU)

Lito, LTChip, that Skycrane....

http://www.eberlestock.com/introducing_the_skycrane.htm

Looks like you can carry everything... including a wet-bar. Combined with a Pelican attached-case, you could even keep the olive jar from breaking..... :8~/

Duman
Monday, February 12, 2007, at 22:58:21 (ZULU)

Yeah that pack is well designed. I am just getting stuck on the price a bit. The hunting version looks pretty good and is a good bit cheaper but I really prefer the tactical one with the convertable fanny pack feature and detachable drag bag.

LTChip
Monday, February 12, 2007, at 23:42:41 (ZULU)

Wes,

I'm not Morgue. You're not the first to make that mistake, though.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 00:03:50 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad, how are you guys holding up up there? Did you get some of this record snow?

sinister
Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 01:19:27 (ZULU)

Sinister: I think Kevin's out of the country at the moment, and may not have frequent Internet access.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 04:32:19 (ZULU)

The 800 Steyr HS50 rifles sold to Iran?

Well, the Brits report they are now part of the evidence against Iran---as a bunch of them turned up in the hands of the Iraqi terrs. Click my name for the story...

Now this would be a smoking gun in both senses of the words:))

Joe M
Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 04:59:07 (ZULU)

Gents,

Travis, Oops! Looks like some more attention to detail might be in order.

Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 06:34:47 (ZULU)

Any collectors here?

The Swiss SIG-factory guncollection is under the hammer.

There's a lot of goodies here: Stoner 63, Enfield Bullpup cal 308, SIG prototypes, etc.

http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/Kataloge/Katalog/KatalogSIG.pdf

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 08:26:55 (ZULU)

I just got back in CONUS.

These trips are ass-kickers.

Started in Shanghai at 14:00 Monday.

One hour ride to PuDong Airport.

two hour wait for flight.

ten hour flight to Vancouver

two hour wait for flight.

four hour flight to Toronto.

one hour wait for shuttle back to my truck.

three hour drive home.

The worst of the snow fall hit East of us...they got six feet in almost as many hours. We've got less than a foot on the level with extreme cold.

Now.....I'll try to sleep.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 08:30:36 (ZULU)

Hey guys i had a favor to ask. I am sure most of you know of SWFA better known as www.riflescopes.com well they have a photo contest for best picture and story and I entered with a picture of my 6 point bull elk I shot at 570 yards and it made the finals!

so right now people can vote on the finalists so I am here to ask for your vote. I am really hoping to get secound place because then I would win a brand new zeiss 4-14x40 conquest scope.

here is the link to vote http://www.swfa.com/contestentries.aspx?contest=9

I understand if you dont want to but it would really mean a lot to me!

also I would like to thank you guys so much for teaching me how to shoot well! I would have never made the shot on that elk without the knowlage I got from you guy.

Thanks again!

Jeremy VanSchoonhoven

Jeremy VanSchoonhoven
Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 10:08:08 (ZULU)

Guys,

Finally got to shoot a .454 Casull yesterday. 4" ported barrel. The pressure wave hit you in the sternum, kinda makes ya feel wierd. Hard to rapid fire, as you can't see the target for the flame! Don't think I need one of those too bad, here in Ks., anyways.

Hygiene country:

Found this Black & Decker cordless powered dish scrubber doohickey, and it's the shit for scrubbing the crud off of you when you get real dirty. The brush attachment works your feet over pretty good when you've been in insulated boots for 2 days straight! Got the wife to use it on my back, too. Works good.

Does anyone know for sure which weapon light has that super bright white light with strobe mode, and a green laser? It thought Las/Tac 2's did, but can't find them with the green laser and a light.

Also, what kinda stuff can I do to make sure a torn muscle in my knee heals properly? Some jackass hit me with a forklift, and I tore my knee up kicking his ass. It's some itty bitty muscle on the inside of my knee above the miniscus. (sp?)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 12:27:29 (ZULU)

I just wanted to stop and say hi.Its been cold here so I have not been out since the early january.I love to shoot but 20below sucks the fun out of it.

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 18:20:49 (ZULU)

Travis

Let me tell you with practice and your own hand loads you can hit (kill) any thing out to 200 yds.and beyond with ease, that most guys can't hit with a rifle. That's of course, if you are using a Freedom Arms revolver.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 21:44:51 (ZULU)

I see Obammy is back pedalling from a statement he made in Iowa about our soldiers lives being WASTED in Iraq, obviously he and John Kerry went to the same school.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 21:53:44 (ZULU)

Speaking of Obammy

Here's an informative site on the muslim statistics

Sleep well

doug sickels
Tuesday, February 13, 2007, at 23:50:53 (ZULU)

Been away Gents ... friggin' busy.

Lotsa SWAT work lately. Callouts, search warrants on correct addresses :) ... world is a crazy place.

Inadvertently tossed a flash bang through a window and into a commode where a B/G had just been sitting ... he was trying to flush a bale of grass and his own waste when it went off ... blew the fixture off the mounts ...

He was bewildered when we got to him ... not to mention covered with his own piss, feces and marijuana.

"Ya'll didn't have to do me that ... "

"Hey we need a rookie up here to transport this guy !!!!!" ... lol

What fun !!!

Ahhhhh cocaine and wife beatin' ... keeps food on the table.

Alan, Charles, Bill ... good to see you again ... brothers.

Kevin M, welcome home Sir.

A little milestone for my guys ... To date ... AmericanSnipers.org has supported 402 platoons of snipers and designated marksmen in the US military.

Who the hell woulda thunk it dudes? God bless Bruce (and LouAnn) Robinson.

Hope the Dems don't cut war spending or we'll be really in a bind trying to get the shooters what they need. Hell ... they don't get what they need now in many cases.

Made 35K at Shot. Wore us smooth out.

Give Jeff Hoffman @ Black Hills, Brownells, Leupold Mil/LE Div. and Steve Hines at Falcon Ind. (Ergo Grip) all the biz you can.

They send THOUSANDS to us/the troops. Not common knowledge.

SOF Mag a big time supporter as well.

Joe M ... truly regret missing you on your trip through. Be sure and holler again if you head back this way.

Sinister, Rick ... enjoyed recent visits.

Gents ... always a pleasure.

brian k. sain
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 01:47:53 (ZULU)

Gents: For a rather lucid telling of the effect that "nonbinding resolutions" have on our troops in harm's way--click my name!

BKS: I apologize for my "unstructured vacation" that made our link up into a lottery--had no idea when I would pass your way, not hour--not day--just "week"---so, that put it in the hard-to-do category. Entirely my fault.

Heheh, retirement means I spend more time reading my news and analysis, as well as staring at foxnews between surfing the spectrum. So much data can get confusing....but here's what I think I learned this week:

Some lady with bucket sized lungs kicked one, leaving behind a mystery child. Zsa Zsa seems to have married her sister's husband, Prince Eddie Albert, who has now chimed in as the potential daddy. After all, the newest game show on all the channels is "who's yer daddy" with a $478-million prize for the winner. I still haven't figured the Green Acres connection yet, so stay tuned. But Howard Stern, king of all torts, has an early lead in this gameshow by being present at the birth. I thought he was a shock jock, but turns out he is really a shyster-jock. Who knew. But that is not all--there's more! The bahama's immigration minister, Mel Gibson, got caught on film with the bucket of lungs in bed--allegedly fast-tracking her residency in between trashing Israelis. That's going to make Judge Judy's job in california harder in picking the big winner in paternity. AND! The family who fronts the prize money has a twist: Maybe their daddy is baby's daddy by artificial means! They may keep the prize for themselves that way. Sneaky stuff. Lest we forget: The Bodyguard! He's after the baby, while Whitney herself is after lungbucket's stash. And there's another contestant too---hardly anyone remembers his name anymore; I think his name is Larry Bird-head or some such. There's more wannabee dads in the running too; all claiming to be that Magic Johnson for the big payoff.

Meanwhile, the three-time Corpse Bride (to be) lies in state in a Broward County Reefer. Legend has it that they stashed her along side the hanging Chads--and Chad may very well turn out to be the daddy in the end for all we know. As it stands, a possible solution is at hand: Send her to the taxidermist, raffle her off, and use the proceeds to pay for new FEMA trailers for the newly homeless / previously homeless katrina victims that got whacked by a tornado. Pretty confusing stuff. And to think I used to worry only about real problems. I sure wuz missing out! The only thing missing from this story is Scotty, wearing ill-fitting gloves that got him aquitted, stoking up the warp drive.

Once the weather breaks up here in the frigid northland, I'll get back to shooting. First target is going to be my damned TV...

Heheheh.

Joe M
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 04:11:14 (ZULU)

Al Sadr bugged out. The "Surge" has already worked. That kind of leaves the Democrat party's non-binding resolution gasping for air. The Democrats will pass it anyway and the mainstream media will run cover.

Vidiots (video idiots) will never know the difference. They never do.

BKS: Good post.

Joe M: I usually turn on Foxnews while I'm reloading, but in the last few days they lost me by going wall-to-wall with the death of this fat, grotesque hooker.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 04:35:35 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"... they lost me by going wall-to-wall with the death of this fat, grotesque hooker."<

Hey dude, don't speak about the mother of my second child that way - where do I file for the money???

Oh yeah, the line forms at the Bahamian airport. SHIT! Too late again :(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 11:34:39 (ZULU)

"Lito,

Freud must be right. You DO hate your penis!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 11:51:32 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan: What the hell??...

...never mind. Don't tell me. I don't even want to know.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 13:54:05 (ZULU)

Lito,

If you'd stick it in THAT, you must be angry at it. If you still don't get it, lemme know, I'll get a big crayon and draw you a picture.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., (the southern arctic) - Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 14:15:56 (ZULU)

Travis...

No I don't. I just want it to earn back some of the money I have spent on "it's" entertainment all these years.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 14:33:31 (ZULU)

Lito,

I'll be 30 in March, and I think mine owes me a new 1 ton crew cab turbo diesel 4X4 truck!

Damned cold and windy in Ks. today and yesterday. Almost too cold to kill coyotes.......almost.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., (the southern arctic) - Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 15:49:15 (ZULU)

JoeM: LMAO!! A career in journalism is in the cards for you!

On the History channel last night, there was a program detailing some of the covert ops in the runup to OIF. Apparently Jordan allowed us the use of two clandestine bases, for fast strike capability in western Iraq. Pretty cool.

Duman
Twilight Zone, State of Idiocy, USA - Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 16:05:27 (ZULU)

BKS,

Stick around if you can, or at least visit more often. You've been missed. But whatever you do ....keep up the good work!

Joe M,

And the winner of the "Who's The Daddy" bowl is ........Arnold Ziffel!

Travis,

It NEVER EVER pays you back. No matter what it tells you while its got control, you ALWAYS wind up paying ;)

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 16:22:07 (ZULU)

Hello everybody,

Sorry for the lack of communication lately. But Brian's post about his latest arrest forced me out of hibernation. Glad to hear you stayed clean!

Joe Mahon: thanks for your pithy explation of Anna Nicole's demise. Your version of events is way more entertaining than anything that advertisers are paying for on TV.

Travis: take lots of glucosamine for your knee. It worked for me, worked for my horse and my dogs.

Try to enjoy Valentine's Day, ok guys?

Sweetie

Sweetie
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 20:47:22 (ZULU)

BKS; interesting story. Actually something similar happened here on SC recently. Apparently you noticed. I tossed the Grenade without thinking.

Brogers
Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 22:38:58 (ZULU)

'lito,

sure you've heard this but:

http://www.toilette-humor.com/dear-penis2.html

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 23:05:53 (ZULU)

Will try and stop in more often. Miss the place.

Ref: Grenades ... it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt ... then it ain't fun no more.

And ... it's pretty hard to put the pin back in when you are all amped up and ready to toss another at the SOB.

Life's too short.

Don't be hatin' ... lol

Later homeboys.

brian k. sain
Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 02:13:40 (ZULU)

There's been enough flash-bang/toilet incidents that you'd think at least some of the BG's would be bright enough to either build their johns without windows or board them up.

WR Moore
Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 02:17:10 (ZULU)

Interesting premise from Eric at Berger Bullets (brazenly lifted off another site):

"As many of you know we have been working on the bullet failure (blow up) situation for some time. I have been collecting data from numerous shooters over the last 2 ½ years ranging from general observations to controlled experiments. At Berger, we have been working with folks at MIT and with other top minds in metallurgy and ballistics. What I have below is a report on what we have learned.

To briefly review, bullet failure is when the bullet does not hit the target anywhere near the expected impact location. (This is not about the unexpected 8 or the fifth shot out of a bug hole group). This result can be observed as a shot that is driven way off course but does make it to the ground, a shot that appears as a puff of smoke 30 yards or more from the muzzle, and everything in between. The shooter can experience bullet failure with several shots or with one shot out of a string.

The wide range of results and conditions has made it very challenging to sort out the true root cause. The information below is meant to bring the true root causes to the surface. I am not suggesting that these causes exist in every situation; however, they cover the vast majority of bullet failures.

The first two root causes are responsible for the most bullet failures:

Excessive RPM resulting from high velocity and a barrel that has a twist rate much faster than is needed for the bullet used. We are working on determining the general RPM limits for various bullets. This will be a long project, and the data we have now is not enough to publish RPM limits.

Solution: Use twist rates that are the same as or close to (faster) published recommendation. When shooting cartridges that produce higher than normal velocity (high capacity wildcats) consider using twist rates slower than those published since the published twist recommendations are based on velocities achieved by standard cartridges. (How much slower is based on the situation however it will usually be only 1” slower)

Friction that produces heat that exceeds the melting point of lead. This result is observed most often by the puff of “smoke” that will be within the first hundred yards from the muzzle. The “smoke” is in fact molten lead. The puff of molten lead does not always occur during this failure. A core that becomes even slightly plastic will not make it to the target properly.

You have heard me talk about a combination of conditions that produces a failure. I have believed this to be true for a long time but frankly, it has only been recently that we have begun to truly understand what is actually happening. Once we started looking at the possibility of the core melting, all the puzzling information from the various reports began to make sense. This is going to be a lengthy post focused on identifying root causes and their solutions so I will not go into all the various conditions and ranges in which these conditions exist that support these findings.

The report that our bullets would fail while Sierras would not was particularly puzzling. We have known for a while that making the jacket thicker does not make the jacket significantly stronger. As it turns out, we were looking at it from the wrong point of view. We had been looking at a thicker jacket as being a tougher jacket and this just isn’t true, however when you have a thicker jacket you are moving the lead away from the source of the heat (friction between the barrel and the bullet which is mostly in the area of the rifling, not the grooves). Bullets that have thicker jackets are actually thicker in the base and sidewalls near the base, which moves the lead further away from the heat. This increases the amount of friction that the thicker jacketed bullet can realize before the lead core gets hot enough to melt.

Since thicker jackets are difficult to make concentric, we have two solutions. The first is that we are going to work on making thicker jackets for our long-range bullets. This is going to take time, as we will not produce jackets that are greater than .0003 TIR in wall thickness variation. This is harder to do with thicker jackets. The bullets we make now shoot very well and there are several ways that this failure-creating friction can be avoided as it has been by many shooters. Avoiding this condition is the second solution.

Solution for avoiding failure-creating heat using our current bullets: The goal is not to slow the bullet down but rather reduce the heat created by the friction. There are several ways to do this. (Keep in mind that each condition is not absolute and in fact works with other conditions to create failure. Since failures occur occasionally when all the conditions work together to create excessive heat we know that it will not take much to insure that failures are avoided)

First, you can consider your barrel length. It has been found that barrels longer than 28” are capable of produce failure-creating heat. Remember that the bullet is hottest at the muzzle. The more metal the bullet has to travel over, the hotter it gets.

Second, consider using moly, Danzac (tungsten disulfide), or any other dry lubricant as these reduce friction thereby reducing heat. I know moly is a hot button for many shooters however setting all other things aside it works great as a friction (heat) reducer.

Third, consider running a patch with a light amount of Kroil through your barrel prior to shooting. This will lubricate the barrel long enough until the carbon builds up enough to serve the same purpose. The first few shots will be erratic, but failure-creating heat is avoided. Barrels that are squeaky clean produce significant levels of friction if no friction reducers are present before firing. (I am not suggesting that you do not clean your barrel completely but rather pointing out how to avoid failure-creating heat when you start shooting).

Fourth, consider the bore diameter of your barrel (land height not groove depth). Some barrel makers can provide you with different bore diameters. Consider diameters on the larger side of the available options.

Fifth, consider the land configuration in your barrel. Six groove, cut, squared off rifling produces greater friction than a 5C or 5R type barrel. The 5C or 5R type rifling produces more friction than a three-groove barrel. I am not suggesting one is better than another; however, the friction generated by the different rifling designs should not be ignored.

Sixth, consider the cartridge you are using. Cartridges such as the 6X284 or any overbore wildcat are notorious for high velocity and barrel life consumption (rapid erosion). These are some of the main ingredients in failure-creating heat generation.

Please remember that the combination of components used in your rifle is a compromise. I have learned why Berger Bullets fail when others do not. I have decided to share this with you because I am committed to enhancing the experience for the shooter and in my opinion, more information is better even if on the surface this information makes us look bad.

Many shooters avoid failure-creating heat when they use Berger and find that Bergers work best for them. You can look at the information above as a reason not to shoot Berger or you can look at it as detailed instructions on how to make Bergers work for you without the concern of producing failures. If you value the accuracy that Bergers produce, then the above information details areas where you can make an easy compromise now that you have all the facts. If you value the conditions listed above that produce failure-creating heat more than you value the accuracy of Berger Bullets, then your decision is also made easier with these details.

The following root causes are responsible for bullet failures but in smaller numbers:

Human error that produces failure-causing condition. Let’s all admit up front that none of us are perfect. A shooter can create failure-causing condition in the barrel by improper break in, cleaning or storage (crown damage). Failure causing conditions can be created with the load as well. Using the wrong powder, not chamfering necks, excessively tight neck tension damaging the base of the bullet, poor handling practices can also lead to failures. Careful and appropriate firearm handling and loading practices usually avoid these failure causing conditions.

Tight or rough bore that actually tears jacket material away from the bullet. This is an extreme and rare condition that is easily identifiable with a bore scope, by slugging the barrel or by feeling for a spot that is more resistant to cleaning with a tight patch. Barrel makers are quick to resolve this situation.

Poor bullet fabrication such as too low or too high seating pressure. Low seating pressure can create a poor mechanical bond and/or air pockets that further destabilize the bullet. Seating pressure that is too high effects the copper jacket by producing a weakness where the nose can separate from the body. These conditions can be most easily detected by weighing your bullets, as too low or too high seating pressure is mostly the result of an extreme change in the mass of the lead.

Other examples of poor fabrication are any excessive lube on the cores (many bullet makers do not clean their cores before bullets are swaged) or debris between the jacket and the core can produce a weak bond, air pockets and/or significant stability issues through poor balance around the axis. Another poor fabrication condition that is easiest to avoid is lead that contains debris or significant air pockets due to double extrusion. This condition does not exist when a quality source of lead is used. Quality bullet manufacturers of which there are many can avoid all of these fabrication conditions.

There might be some other causes of bullet failures beyond those listed above but they happen is such rare occurrences that they have not been identified and should not weigh heavily on your mind.

It is my sincere hope that you find this information useful toward enhancing your shooting experience.

Regards,

Eric Stecker

Berger Bullets"

sinister
Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 02:21:55 (ZULU)

Seventh: Use something other than Berger Bullets:))

Sorry! I just had to toss that in there...

Weather is expected to jump above freezing by next week...I have sticks lined up waiting for various range work. Played the musical scope-game and need to zero a few, need data for the .260 gasser, hell who am I kiddin? I just wanna play! I'll prbably just sling the Vaqueros around for a few days plugging TVs (and cans, bunnies, whatever...)

Anyone know a good duck recipe?

Joe M
Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 02:59:51 (ZULU)

Joe, you've just opened the can of "good duck recepies" jokes.... be prepared. I grew up in one of the best duck shooting places in the States: The Tule Lake-Lower Klamath Waterfowl Refuge on the Pacific flyway, and I can guarandamntee they ain't no "good" duck recepies. It can be made tolereable if made into Jerkey, or crock-potted with enough onion soup mix and creame-of-whatever soup...but just goes to show you that you can eat anything if its disguised well enough. Might go agin' 'yote bait's grain, but I've had jerkey from 'yotes and it ain't half bad (tastes like duck?).

Duck huntin' was so good that my duck (and goose) gun was a Model 24 Win. 20 gauge in Imp Cyl/Mod chokes...kilt a bunch of 'em with it.

On another note... Berger bullets. My FN SPR seems to like them.... 168's over 44g. Varget in WW Brass/Fed. GMM primers will pretty much go under one MOA, and often enough into 1/2 MOA @ 200 yds (longest known distance range at my club). I've "plinked" with them at near 600 and they're plenty accurate, and about one MOA flatter than the 168 SMK's...according to the comeups on my Leupold M3 anyway. Got to wait for the snow to melt go get to the BLM and do some targets out to 1000. I'm thinking that in this country, a generator and floodlamp and shooting after dark (and the winds are calm) are the ticket for these distances...we'll see (it is legal to hunt nongame animals after dark in this part of the country, so shouldn't attract too much attention).

Happy Duck Huntin'!

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USandA - Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 04:21:12 (ZULU)

Joe

How is that 260 project going anyway? Did you get set up for reloading? I read some where that Winchester is going to make 260 brass.

Lake City brass for the 223 (04) is it worth messing with at 60.00 a 1000 supposedly not from SAWS

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 13:06:59 (ZULU)

Sinister...

Berger's note was an effort to defuse the building complaints about their bullets from 1000 shooters.

From the beginning, Berger used J4 jackets, and they are accurate bullets. But a short time ago, Berger was bought up by J4, so here's the problem... J4 jackets are softer than Sierra and other makers.

The art of 1000 benchrest is pushing bullets to their limits, with longer bullets, faster twist barrels, and higher velocities. The berger bullets are coming apart on the way to the target, while the Sierras and others are not.

This note is an effort to blow some smoke on the issue, in the sense of, "No es mia culpa", cuz Berger can't switch to another jacket material, cuz J4 owns Berger.

It's that ol' "Rock and a hard place" thingie.

Here'smy reply to that article on another forum...

>"I disagree with their theory about barrel friction/lead melting.

If you consider the amount of time in the barrel (about 1.5/1000ths of a second), the thermal coefficient of jacket metal is not fast enough to melt the lead before the bullet is in free air.

Plus, given long barrels of the same length (I shoot a lot of 28" tubes), if a bullet is coming apart in a 10" twist barrel, and it won't in a 12" barrel... and the friction/length/"time in barrel" is the same... then how come???

Plus... if you are shooting a short barrel (20"), with a twist/velocity ratio that gives you the same spin, you find that the bullets still come apart, with 1/3 LESS friction... so how come???

Hmmmmmm??

I have been chasing this issue for about 25-30 years, and as I see it, it is simply a matter of jacket strength. My first blow ups were back in the 1970's a 14" twist .220 Wilson Arrow, using 50gr and 55gr Hornady SX's that had 0.009" jackets.

They blew up at around 3,400 to 3,500fps.

The same design (50gr SP's) with 0.18" jackets could be driven out of the .220 Wilson Arrow at the speed of light without failure. Same barrel time, same velocity, same friction (actually more friction, because the 0.018" jacket had more resistance to rifling deformation... therefore more friction).

It is pretty well known that J4 jacket material is softer than the jackets made by Sierra and the others.

Berger is in a tough spot on this. They are now owned by J4, so they can't switch jackets, so they can't solve this problem, and the 1000yd bench shooters are bitching about the Bergers blowing up on the way to the target..."<

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 16:35:09 (ZULU)

BKS; Message received. I agree completely.

Although I apparently have evolved into something called a "passive aggressive" in the great minds on this channel and was previously unaware of the true meaning of that term having assumed that to be something like a "thin fatman" I all of sudden I was determined to find out just how that would affect my life from this point on. I called my sister in law who majored in such things. Now Sis (I call her sis cause Okies call their sister in laws...well you know). She said she understood the term but it was too technical to explain to me except to say that I would understand it in more basic language. I said "OK Sis!" She said, " Now think of a Large Bull." I said, "Yes somebody mentioned something about a lot of bull!" She said,"Shut up and listen! Now you enter his pasture... and this bull will approach you slowly with his big brown eyes looking quite friendly and passive. He will lower his head as if in reverence to your superiority. She continues, "Then you turn away thinking what a nice friendly passive dumb animal who respects me greatly because I'm superior to him in every way... and then the Son of bitch runs right over your ass!" And she adds, "that's you Bubba!" The passive, aggressive . " Bye Sis! " Sis is a funny lady at 80 something years old still.

Brogers
Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 17:52:53 (ZULU)

'yotie...

You crack me up!!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 19:08:32 (ZULU)

Been teaching the girls some "cleaned up" old-time cadences to replace that annoying twinkle star crap they get in school. Last night, we regaled momma with "Columbo" ya know--the one that goes "that hypothetical (navigating) son of a (gun) columbo..." Well, when we struck up "bodies burning bodies" momma had quite enough. Oh well:)) I guess forgeting to clean up the part about "I'll be a sunnumbitch if i don't bring back chicago" was my downfall.

Got me to thinking: Sometime around 1987 or so, they started getting down on these cadences. It seems they created a "hostile work environment."

I wonder if these same asshats now have a similar opinion on Paktika or Anbar??? Hostile work environments indeed. Haha.

On a more serious note:

""In a series of raids across Baghdad, U.S. and Iraqi forces seized more than 100 Austrian-manufactured sniper rifles in a 24-hour period Feb. 12-13. The .50-caliber weapons, which were legally exported to Iran in 2006, represent a grave danger to coalition troops....A standard practice among Western weapons manufactures is to mark a rifle with its serial number in several locations -- not only the frame but also the bolt and barrel -- and this is the practice at Steyr-Mannlicher... That more than 100 Steyr HS.50s were confiscated in a single 24-hour period in Baghdad suggests two things: First, that such a concentration was put in place in preparation for the building U.S. surge into the Iraqi capital and that the cache could represent the bulk of the rifles supplied to Iraqi Shia by supporters inside Iran. But if substantially larger portions of the original 800 rifles have slipped into the capital, it will be costly for both U.S. and Iraqi forces. The only question is: How many did Iran keep for itself?

The second point to consider is this: U.S. troops almost certainly acted on excellent intelligence, suggesting that if there are more large caches, they very well could be found.""

Edited down to highlight key points froma lengthy article.

These would be the HS50s that steyr sold to the Mullahs in Iran. Apparently, the clerics didn't like the muzzle blast and passed them on to their neighbors. Bastards. And that is plural to include the Austrians who have US blood on their hands. A captain was shot thru the ballistic windshield of his up-armored by a 50, any takers on what launched it?

And lastly, Bruce Robinson sent me some specialized weapon cleaning tools back in 04. I mailed them home this last trip to save carry-weight with other non-needed gear. That shipment was one of many that became lost. Well, today a different box arrived--nine months later, and those tools came home! No explanation, just a new box with re-taped customs forms from me to me. Strange but cool.

Joe M
Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 19:52:56 (ZULU)