Sniper Country Duty Roster

Scott F. A long time ago when I was a youngin ,my boss was remodeling his home.

He was demolishing a built in China Cabinet and while doing so he was struck by several 5 shot Brass stripper clips full of .30-06 Ammo.

Knowing I was a shooter he brought them to work for me.

The head stamp was RA-18 ie. manufactured in 1918.

Well, I pulled 1 round dumped out the powder ( it looked as good as the day it was loaded 65 years earlier ).

Foolishly I shot it all up on the weekend.

Seemed to shoot as hard as the new factory ammo I was using in Dad's

03 Springfield.

With proper storage, Powder / Primers & Ammunition will last a very long time.

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Haven't done much Welding Hot or Cold. LOL

When you load beyond your immediate needs,seat the projectiles .050" / .060" longer.

Then seat to proper length as needed.

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 00:32:11 (ZULU)

Scott F...

>"Ifin a guy was to buy a couple of 8 pounders of powda, will it keep?"<

DAmn close to forever... keep it at reasonable temperetures (under 150-F) and you gots no worries - I still have large lots of powder I bought in the 60's, and it's the same as it was when I got it.

>"Cold welding? Is this a sitiation that can occur and 'bout how long would loaded rounds have to sit to beome "cold welded"? To remedy this would you just smack 'em with a bullet puller a time or two then re-seat?"<

Put this is the silly rumors dept - as was said by "Joisey Steve", 65 year old ammo shoots fine.

>"This place can be therapetic... I'm on the couch."<

That'll be $200 an hour... please pay the receptionest (that's Sharon, the one in the red dress and matching purse and pumps ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 01:15:16 (ZULU)

Boris is now #3!!!!! Vote, vote, vote!

Sharon

'lito, how goes the battle?

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 02:41:56 (ZULU)

STEELERS ROCK!

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 03:07:02 (ZULU)

CDC: http://americansnipers.org/items.html

PETE: 2 SHOT SHOWS ago I suggested that S&B include the #7 reticle in the short dot for the LE guys. Looks like they took my advice.

I was supposed to get one of the first to T/E. Never happened.

What is the cheapest they can be had ?

brian k. sain
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 04:00:58 (ZULU)

Steelers MVPs wore striped shirts.

BKS: This box of junk isn't on the desired items list. Send it anyway?

CDC'
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 04:52:49 (ZULU)

Tony, I skipped a lot of classes, and in general only applied myself to the courses I really enjoyed. It took me 2.5 years to be called boss, but I always considered myself somewhat of a slacker when it came to some things.

On Bonfar, it's difficult to explain to someone who's never been there to see it, the tonnage and effort applied to that structure. Building something 100 feet tall and roughly that across it's base, formed in tiers, isn't rocket science but it ain't easy either. Did I mention the essential lack of power tools? Bonfar ain't a thing, it's an experience. At one time, I showed a pic of mine during the final days of stack. I got a "that's cool", which turned to awe when he said "are those dots PEOPLE on that?!". Yeah.

Mk4, believe it or not, I've got a chance to strip both and consider the design of the XCR a bit better. One of the things that "hung" on me about the Daewoo was the reverse 180 for the selector..... the XCR doesn't even need the full 90 of the AR series LOL! But the bolt and carrier assys are the meat of the real matter. The Kittywhacker expressed "that's a smart thing" about the carrier driving bands, and I agree. Likewise, I've never been a fan of the locking lug arrangement on the '16, which the Daewoo shares. The XCR is more betterer. If, IF, the design is well executed, it SHOULD be a winner. I'm not putting my name on it though until it sees some ammo throughput. I figure a "warm up" of 1200 in day 1 should start to tell the tale, eh?

Sarge, if I haven't made it completely clear lately, you rock.

Powder, yup, just like the Kittywhacker said. I had some 303 Brit loaded with cordite (spaghetti strands) and a cupronickel jacket. It was loaded some 20 years before what Steve was talking about. It fired fine. With modern ammo, the use of a DSC/TGA (differential scanning coulometer / thermogravimetric analyzer) will tell the tale. It scans the actual energy coming off of the powder. An analogy would be that humus warms the ground through decay. When powder decays, it gives off energy as well, and this senses the heat. How much energy is given off, tells what the energy degredation of the "package" would be. That translates into velocity. For precision application, I think I'd rather store the powder, and assemble (with the aid of a chrono to fine-tune velocities) when the need arose. Powder degrades, even when stored at room temperature. It just degrades SLOWLY.

As I've mentioned before, I know from personal experience that it takes some serious thermal abuse to get to squib land.

Today was a good day here. My son decided to take a big step, and felt moved to arrange to be baptized. Happened tonight. Enjoyed seeing it, nobody drown. As I told the pastor, I've been informed that the way religion is decided among the protestant faiths is by how long the baptizee is held under ;-)

Bravo
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 05:11:41 (ZULU)

Bravo, you are'nt kidding about the size of the stack of logs, it's definately something that had to be seen to be believed.

Congrats on your sons baptism.

Tony Burkesf
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 05:24:52 (ZULU)

Bravo: Re-tried emailing you. My network has the hiccups or some such nonsense. I used both addy's...let me know if it works.

Superbowl: I did the "party" thing here. Strange game, strange kick-off time. I remember skipping it last time around...

Our whole network is banned from voting from here (about 1500 friends and neighbors) due to possible "duplicate votes". My partner here emailed SWFA to see if they meant to cut off so many deployed soldiers from this contest...

jBoris
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 10:05:06 (ZULU)

Boris, I'd tell you to get a hold of Sarge Jr to see if he could "access" the SWFA contest but he'll be landing in the states within the next 36 hours on his mid tour R&R. Give him a chance to meet his new son born on the 31st of Jan. Austin Lane weighted in at 8 lbs. 21 1/2 inches.

Nah I'm not a proud grandpa! Mrs. Sarge is up there now and will be there while he's home,I couldn't get off work! You'd think I was still in the Army!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 10:29:01 (ZULU)

Boris has slipped to fourth!!!!! I am voting at LEAST once per day! Vote, vote, vote!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 12:57:09 (ZULU)

Sharon...

>"'lito, how goes the battle?"<

It's tough. It's not the matter of the "truth", it's the quagmire of paper I have to go through. We bought a copy maching just for this - I have about 2,000 papers to go through - school records, DCFS reports, court transcripts, etc, and each one has to be read with a fine tooth comb, looking for little pieces to glue the whole thing together.

I do research very well, but the dishearting thing is that everyone tells me that it's no use, that no one will listen.

What has come as a BIG SUPRISE is... there is no such thing as an "IAD" (Internal Affairs Departemnt) for the court system, like most big police departments have to catch badd cops.

There is NO ONE that police the courts - you have to pray that you get a higher judge that didn't go to school with the one you are after - so as I go through this shit, I'm torn with the drive to save my son (and get some PAYBACK) and the feeling that I throwing good hours after waisted hours... but I could never shave with the lights on if I quit on the little guy... I have good (optimistic) days, and bad (pessimistic) days. But I keep on pluggin away at it.

On the old powder thing... back in the 70's I loaded a bunch of .222 Mag for Prairie Dog shooting. Load was with W-748. We went to SoDak and shot our collective asses off.

About three years ago, I cam across a bunch of that old ammo and pulled it down because some of the case necks were splitting ** - I reloaded the powder in 50 of the best cases to see what it would do.

There was 10 feet per second difference between the orginal and the re-doos. Not even statistically relevent.

But what I did discover (again) was if you neck turn cases, you MUST re-anneal the necks, because neck turning work-hardens the necks. I had turned them in early 1970, and the cases that were split were NEVER fired... they just broke all by themselves.

But since the 70's I realized how useless neck turning is (except for tight necks), so I don' dood it no more.

I replaced all the neck turned cases (from the batch with some split necks) with new factory .222 Mag, and loaded them up and you can't see the difference at the target (at least the fly's never know they were shot with a "stock" case ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 15:59:36 (ZULU)

CDC: If it is good useable equipment ... send it.

If not ... then don't.

Appreciate the thought regardless,

brian k. sain
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 18:25:19 (ZULU)

'Lito,

"But since the 70's I realized how useless neck turning is...." Given your wealth of knowlege and experience, that must have been the 1870's .......... did you have a pet pterodactyl as a kid?

........ running for cover ........ ;8-p

Duman
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 18:27:44 (ZULU)

'lito,

Now your bragging!!(HA) If you would get out and shoot more your cases wouldn't fall apart from lack of use!! I neck turn mine just as a clean up but then I shoot them and they don't crack, just kidding!!(HA). Hope all goes well with your quest with your son.

Pat-1
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 18:29:44 (ZULU)

DewMan...

>" did you have a pet pterodactyl as a kid? ... running for cover ........ "<

Yeah... how didja know?

I had one of them critters and taught him falconery - he broke a tooth on a Stegosaurus and the little ungreatful shit wouldn't hunt no more.

He fell into a mud puddle and drowned - I felt badd and missed the little sucka, until I was over to the natural history museum a few years ago, and saw him - he was all turned into stone - I knew it was him because of the broke tooth ;))))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 18:36:54 (ZULU)

Robert,

Good news - was busy typing up an email to you, wondering what had became of you. You guys still coming? How was the show?

All, ESPECIALLY AOL and YAHOO users.

You guys might want to SERIOUSLY reconsider your allegiances and get yourself a real ISP.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/technology/05AOL.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

(You need to register for a free login)

"Postage Is Due for Companies Sending E-Mail

Companies will soon have to buy the electronic equivalent of a postage stamp if they want to be certain that their e-mail will be delivered to many of their customers."

AOL users - if you expect ME to PAY to send YOU an email, you've got a FAT chance!

Yeah, I know it says "companies". For how long before it is EVERYBODY? And how many people here use their company email addresses to send email? You think Ford is going to pay for me to send email to an AOL address? Neither do I...

All AOL and YAHOO users, and others, better take a good look at this.

I'm not even going to go into the details of this. Spam? I just pay them a minimal amount, it will ALWAYS go to their members, BYPASSING their spam (AND VIRUS???) traps! Yeah right!!

Marius

Marius
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 19:49:22 (ZULU)

Is there any advantage of have a one piece base over the two.Is the one just stiffen up the action.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, February 6, 2006, at 22:31:00 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

<"Is there any advantage of have a one piece base over the two.Is the one just stiffen up the action."<

No. There are those that will espouse the theory that the one piece base will "stiffen" the action - but if you have an action that is so weak that a bar held on with four #6 or #8 screws can stiffen, you got real problems, and need to get a new action.

The one piece base (if it's a Picatiny), has the advantage of allowing the rings to be put most anywhere... the two piece does not give you this much choice... but the two piece gives you lots of finger room in the port to clear a loose round or case that didn't eject, or feed rounds into the magazine with cold fingers.

The two piece base also is usually lower than the one piece bases... but it's a choice - either will serve you will... I use two piece bases when ever I can.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, February 6, 2006, at 22:50:02 (ZULU)

Re: One piece v. two piece scope bases. 'Bout the onliest advantage I can see for a one-piece base is (not inconsequential) IF you have one with a fitted recoil lug (ie. Iron Brigade Armory) that abuts the ejection port, and you intend to use a heavy scope (i.e. NightForce) on a heavy-recoiling piece (i.e. 338 Lapua or somesuch), then you can take the shearing recoil forces off of the screws.... BUT, the base has to be fitted properly.

Just a thought (that occured to me when I had an IBA one-piece mount fitted to my 30-06... not exactly "heavy recoiling", particularly in an 11# rifle, but not worrying about multiple "interfaces" between the sighting device and the projectile-launching device was worth it to me).

Steve

Steve
Butte, MT, USA - Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 02:15:43 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Props to the perfunctory prose of proper powder protection, perfect... or sompin like that.

Anybody know why God created man first?

He figured He did'nt need somebody else's opinion.

Gotta go.

Yes honey buns?

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, - Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 02:42:19 (ZULU)

Alignment is easier and more precise with a one-piece base. Marty's QC beats Remingtonian's any old time.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 13:40:34 (ZULU)

CDC- Striped shirt MVP's: Monday morning ESPN showed the first touchdown from a camera mounted slightly higher than the one used in prime time. The top curve of the football can be seen in shilhoutte clearly over the plane before the defenders hit. There was no comment on the footage, they were playing game soundtrack at the time-the duds in the studio don't even see what's on the screen while they're running their overpaid mouths.

I also noted a glaring hit from behind by Seattle #94 on Rotheilsburger(?) during the long runback of that second interception that wasn't called. There was a missed inadvertant facemask on another play too.

Like it or not, the guys on the field are the opinions that count and their rulings stand unless there is clear evidence contradicting the call.

WR Moore
Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 15:33:09 (ZULU)

1-vs-2 piece bases,

I like the fact that alignment is a 'no-brainer' with a one-piece base, and the flexibility of scope positioning is greater than with two-piece base. I've had a situation where the two-piece base, with rings, woulda made the scope do yoga to fit in place. I'm not blaming that on the bases, just that I was able to get a one-piece base wrassled in there and it works fine. Poorly machined receivers are rare, but do happen.

I think the fact that 2-pc. bases come in such a wide variety, selection, and are often less expensive, leads many people to choose 2-pc. bases. I have had success with both. 2-pc. bases make it important to check scope/ring alignment prior to final torquing of rings to scope.

Then, of course, don't forget about 'ring-lapping' ......... ;8-p

Duman
Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 16:39:07 (ZULU)

I am selling a Champion's Choice spotting scope stand that would be just the thing for you F-class shooters. Check the emporium.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 17:33:00 (ZULU)

Thanks for the help with the bases.

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 23:06:23 (ZULU)

Ya'll know why Helen Keller had such a hard time driving ...?

She was a woman.

brian k. sain
Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 23:32:56 (ZULU)

Ring lapping?

Isn't that for folks who can't find a web site selling Burris Pos-Align rings? (ducking and pulling on my Nomex 'jammies at the same time)...

http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 23:49:21 (ZULU)

Marius, Doesn't look good for us coming in Feb at all. The last round at the fertility clinic and a few unexpected expenses popped up. Might be tight on getting your package out for a bit, but I'll get it there! I kept holding out to see if the Mrs. and I would make it for Valentines day, but no joy. I will definitely be coming in August, maybe in July for the school holidays as well if I can talk Dan into coming over for buff at that time. Speaking of which...

'CDC, did you ever get my email about times and prices? Sent around the end of November, but never heard back and got utterly sidetracked by some seriously nasty buisness. If not, let me know and I'll resend.

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Wednesday, February 8, 2006, at 00:02:36 (ZULU)

Well will see some of you guys over the next few days. Have a basic load of vendors to talk to but will definately run into you guys that are going to be there. :)

See you there hogs!

Man, had try several times before I realized I had misspelled my own name!!

Hold Hard!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 8, 2006, at 00:49:04 (ZULU)

Joe D: Got it. Nice, very-very nice indeed. The rail adapter has a new home (under a 20" DMR upper), and the 10-boxes are enroute to a happy place where they will do damage to those who oppose freedom.

I love doing this stuff...

Morgue: been emailing; maybe my server doesn't like yours. It happens alot lately. DEH dudes: Nate and Rich say hello. It is a small freakin' world---smaller when you winnow out the trash thru hard testing. Heheh. The scotsman is still around too. Still doing what he does on the side. All working "new" and better gigs. I just emailed you twice... just now. response to the one I received--also just now.

Bad guys hit a team yesterday. Six BGs dead, no friendly scratches. This particular crew has averaged 3 a day for about two weeks straight since their last band-aid. Somehow this never quite comes across in the news...

I told them to paint a small safety orange triangle on all their rigs, a little marker that is not too obvious (or anything that IDs them like that). If they keep up this success---they will get tagged as "leave these guys alone" after a while. Their primary OBJ is to move shit--not mix it up...and, luck plays a part in all things. I like these guys and would wish them less chances for harm.

My 6 months is about up and my replacement is in the pipeline. I will likely hang out here til 1 May and do something I'd rather do. It is an investment this time---could swing something my way that would make immediate retirement less appealing. And it involves less desk-time...

Good Lord, it is a small planet...

boris
Wednesday, February 8, 2006, at 08:34:42 (ZULU)

Under The Constitution of the United States I can draw any goddamned thing I want and distribute it to anyone who wants to see it. (Click my name) That can't be changed without destroying the basis of our government. Despite the State Department's embarassing attempts at kissing-up to mobs, that's not going to happen.

Next question.

Robert Martin: Email me with that info. I don't think I got it.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 8, 2006, at 18:25:08 (ZULU)

You guys going to the shot show, do me a favour , stop by the Schmidt & Bender booth, and lean on em hard about reticle availability, custom reticles, 1.5-6x42PMII. and anything else you can think of.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/392/68779.html

check this link out, its about a female gamekeeper who was arrested by UK police for wearing a t shirt saying bollocks to blair

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=769

but this lot in the immages can insite terrorism, racial hatred and make death threats...

its reverse racism, double standards, and its Britain.

The BNP seem to be the only answer in the UK.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, February 8, 2006, at 23:30:44 (ZULU)

Rick B.

Undude wanted me to tell you that an "Old Friend" of yours should be at the show. I have spent a little time with the gentleman and I am very respectfully impressed! Undude was driving in the middle of nowhere we he asked me to post the message.

I hope to shake your hand as well at the show..

Michael
Los Gatos, CA, - Thursday, February 9, 2006, at 07:36:40 (ZULU)

Our SERT commander asked me to find out if a Palm Pilot compatible electronic data book exists.

Is there such an animal?

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Thursday, February 9, 2006, at 14:46:33 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any comments on the new springfeild armory scopes?

They look like a pretty nice scope,they also have an anticant level already built into them.

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, February 9, 2006, at 21:05:41 (ZULU)

JimT wrote:

"...if a Palm Pilot compatible electronic data book exists?"

I assume your're loking for electronic version of a dope book,

where you could record range cards and "actual" objserved trajectory info for subsequent usage?

This is't it, but it does a nice job of the field calculation problem. You could probably tweek it by specifying corrected BC's to match actual observations, as opposed to the manufacturer's theoretical data.

http://www.precisionworkbench.com/2.htm (or click on my name)

http://www.horusvision.com/down/AtragUserManual-310.pdf

http://www.horusvision.com/hv.cfm?pg=specmp

I used the search terms "PDA range card wind" and then added "mirage" later.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, February 9, 2006, at 22:23:58 (ZULU)

JK me lad, you desparately need to read the Hot Tips and Cold Shots section. The In Review section is good too. The scope line you mentioned is not well thought of.

My old man had a habit of buying a cheap version of something to see if there was merit to the product idea. Then he'd buy a well built version of the product. Waste of the money on the tryout version. He did do one thing right the first time (that I know of). He bought an industrial grade 1/2 inch drill from Sears in about 1952. I'm still using it.

BTW, did you get my off roster response to your question on Sako extractors?

WR Moore
Thursday, February 9, 2006, at 23:48:31 (ZULU)

OK HELP!!!!! Anybody have a good load using the 180 SMK in a .300 WSM. I've beat my head trying to come up with a good load, I'm talking about 100 rounds, but I'm just not there! Multiple powders, multiple bullet weights, finally decided on the 180 so that's what I want to stick with, but I just cant seem to find a load this rifle likes! HELP!!!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, February 10, 2006, at 00:16:29 (ZULU)

Re: Bases

A 1-piece base takes some of the tolerances out of the ring alignment problem, but it isn't a cure-all. The rail will take on the tolerances of the receiver unless it is properly bedded. I mounted a Badger rail to a Win Stealth receiver and the previously straight rail bowed like a banana when the mounting screws were torqued. The rings would have also conformed to a banana had I left it alone. I bedded the rail to the receiver and it is now nice and straight like Badger built it. Workee good!

Mike

BMG Mike
Friday, February 10, 2006, at 00:24:44 (ZULU)

Rod Regier: The Precision Workbench software runs on a Pocket PC, not on a Palm Pilot. Also, it does not give you the option of getting elevation data in mils, rather than MOA.

Exbal, from Perry Systems, is another ballistic program that does run on the Palm Pilot. Click on my name for the link.

I don't know of any system for maintaining a data book in a Palm Pilot, although there is nothing to keep one from using the memo files in the Palm for that purpose - and I do.

The advantage of doing that is that you can back the Palm files up to a PC, which means that you have a duplicate record, which can be archived elsewhere. The loss of a written databook would be a significant event which is best avoided.

And there is a nice Palm program called CardBackUp which backs up the databases in a Palm Pilot to an SD card, which means that you can also back your data up to a non-volatile card inserted in the Palm itself, which preserves the data for you in the event the batteries go dead.

It can be found here:

http://www.jkware.com/CardBackup.php

Between the two backup methods, you need never lose your data.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, February 10, 2006, at 01:07:25 (ZULU)

I looked at the Leupold M3A Ultra again today and there is no blind screw hole anywhere to be found on it. It's in like new shape too.

I don't want to post the asking price here so can someone give me a ballpark idea of what the going rate for one of these?

I'd like to pick it up before the weekend for my PSS if the price is right.

Thanks

GR
Eastern, CO, USA - Friday, February 10, 2006, at 01:40:32 (ZULU)

Gents,

Defensive tactics today. Actually was fun. Darn near had one of our little gals strangle me...finally got that sorted out.

Yes, I'm gonna hurt in the morning. The light PT program helped, however. Arm stayed in socket all day.

Scored big time from UPS today. A new Emerson Commander arrived. Been waiting 2 years to get one without paying retail. It's going to become my new carry knife. Retiring the Spyderco Delica after long faithful service. Second goodie was a new double chamber A.I. muzzle brake. Will install it this next week and see how much it reduces felt recoil over the single chamber model. Will report back on that the end of next week.

.300 WSM: Don't have any data that isn't in the manuals. My brother in law has one and I'll see him in a few days. Will post his data. Is this fof hunting four legged critters?

Wonder what will happen to the WSM and WSSM rounds now that Winchester has bowed out. Will they fade into obsolescence or gain in popularity? Time will tell.

Will be gone for a week or so...will check back in upon my return. First vacation in four years. Think I'm ready for it.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, February 10, 2006, at 02:36:06 (ZULU)

Lindy:

Concur that backups are important, not everyone realizes that.

As a professional in the Information Technology industry, I'm very sensitive to ensuring proper backups of expensive-to-recreate data are performed.

General comments not specific to Lindy's observations:

(I backup my home PC with offsite copies, and also have software that permits uploading and downloading my cell phone's address book).

For those that have not progressed to PDA's for their ballistic data, you might consider periodic photocopying or scanning of your dope book to ensure against loss or destruction.

In IT, one of the criteria for how often you should backup is - "how much effort would it take to recreate this work since the last backup". Ask yourself - how much time would it take to recreate your dope book?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, February 10, 2006, at 02:56:53 (ZULU)

Rod, back in the early '90's, my life revolved around a Franklin planner. I lost it once, and realized that my life had just turned to feces, because I kept everything in it.

I was fortunate enough to get it back, because the first page had written in big letters, "If you find this book, there is a $50 reward for its return, no questions asked." Right below that were my telephone numbers.

But it made me realize my vulnerability to losing written important written documents. I transitioned shortly thereafter to a Palm Pilot backed up to a P.C. For the P.C., I do short-term backups to a flash drive, now, and periodic ones to CDs.

Having a scanner, and keeping copies of paper documents in digital format, also minimizes the amount of space required for storage. If you live in an RV as we do, that's a blessing, because you have access without having to tote around the paper.

Computers are handy things.

Lindy
An Undisclosed Secure Location, U.S.A. - Friday, February 10, 2006, at 05:02:07 (ZULU)

Sarge, one of my clients last year used a load of 68.7gr of Reloader 19 in front of a CCI 200 primer behind a 180gr bullet with great success in the 300WSM. COL was 2.885 and averaged 3135fps. He was making 1 shot kills in the neighborhood of 400m. That Savage was rockin' on that trip!

Rob

Robert Martin
Friday, February 10, 2006, at 11:30:41 (ZULU)

doug sickels: I see you deleted your "yer sister's ass" post. This is the US of By God A. Post what you want. I'll defend your right while shaking my head.

The moslem mob is getting too big for its britches.

CDC'
Friday, February 10, 2006, at 15:25:55 (ZULU)

Thanks for all the help on the .300WSM load!

Gang Maj. Joe is BACK IN FIRST!! BUT the contest doesn't end until the 28th of Feb so WE NEED to keep voting and FINDING others to vote as well!!

THANKS to those that have voted for supporting our troop!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, February 10, 2006, at 21:20:17 (ZULU)

Some times it doesn't pay to believe people... expecially when they are Harvard bean counters.

I spoke to Leupold a while back and they SWORE that this thing between them and Premier was just a misunderstanding... well, like all bean counters - they lied:

http://www.leupold.com/resources/custom_shop/Premier_Statement_WEB1-Rev11.pdf

I'm done with them... any leupolds I need I will get on the used market - the rest of my scope needs I'll find elsewhere.

This has hit Premier Reticles at a very hard time, and with no warning.

F**K them!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, February 10, 2006, at 21:38:24 (ZULU)

Pablo: Once I took a two semester operations research sequence. It was open to CS, math, engineering and business grad students. Only the first two took the class. The prof looked like a bad guy from "Gunsmoke". You would like him. Once, while we puzzled over some god-awful network optimization algorithm he had written on the board, he saw the confusion on our faces and said, "I sympathize. This stuff is hard, but it could be worse. Just imagine that you are some poor, dumb MBA student."

My wife majored in business. She won a couple of good awards. This morning, while getting the kids ready for skiing, she said, "It is probably warmer on the mountain. Hot air rises."

On the cartoon riots: I don't remember any moslem leaders groveling after photos were published showing mideasteners burning the American flag.

CDC'
Friday, February 10, 2006, at 22:54:57 (ZULU)

CDC, regarding "Yer Sisters Ass" post;

I thought it was funny to Americans and to the point. In my neck of the woods (New York, NJ area) "Your Sisters Ass" means FU. I guess it has to do with my age at this point also, I thought everyone would get the humor. I didn't want to leave it up here if it didn't make sense to people.

Anyway, people on the road got it, ( guess it might be a New York thing) lots of thumbs up and people laughing as they went by. You get a lot of these muslim creeps around here. (and yes, I don't give a shit about the "peaceful" muslims) I don't hear any outrage from their side over this terrorist crap. They don't belong on this side of the world in my book. I was waiting for a car to pull up slow and take a whack at me.

Thanks though, you've restored my faith in humanity even though you didn't seem to get the punchline.

Doug

doug sickels
Friday, February 10, 2006, at 23:11:22 (ZULU)

Is the 6.5x284 a standard action.I have a 270 remmy 700 Im thinking about converting to a target rifle.

Jon Kujawa
Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 02:23:03 (ZULU)

Just my opinion...

Business adminstration is actually one of the most difficult skills I have ever attempted to learn, nevermind master...

I have never met an MBA grad with any interest in the subject.

medicjim
Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 02:29:53 (ZULU)

doug sickels: "...might be a New York thing..."

A few years ago I ran into some guys from Brooklyn in a Inn near Yellowstone. One was taking a photo of the others and I offered to take a picture of all of them. The display looked screwy but one of them said to go ahead and shoot. I said that I had never seen a camera like that. As I left one of them said, "Did you hear that?" His buddy said, "Yeah. The f*****n West is the third world".

What I was too polite to have said was that I had never seen a digital camera that cheap. The viewfinder showed a smaller picture than the display. If you put that crude image into photoshop and cropped it, the lousy resolution was going to be even worse.

"Yer sister's ass" sounds to these unsophisticated ears like "I knew your mama when she was whoring".

Fighting words, short and sweet.

And I'll defend your right.

CDC'
Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 03:39:30 (ZULU)

Brooklyn sophisticates?

medicjim
Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 03:52:36 (ZULU)

Can anyone tell me what a Rem 1 of one thousand model 24 Police Sniper rifle witha 5R barrel m ight be worth? Some guy has one for sale and he says its 1800 new but I never heard of it. Thanks

Jeff Baker

Jeffrey Baker
Wintersville, Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 04:37:11 (ZULU)

Saw this on the web and loved it...

"Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store - not a government agency"

Jon-K...

The 6.5x284 will fit in a short action (it was designed for the Wincheter 100 lever action), but that means that you will have to seat the bullets in DEEP, which is what killed the 284. But if you build it on a .270 length action it will be fine. When you order the barrel, make sure you specify a LONG throat - better yet, send a dummy round with your bullet of choice to the guy that chambers the barrel - if her can't do it, get someone else.

I think Pat(HA!) is shooting the 6.5x284...

MedicJim...

>"Business adminstration is actually one of the most difficult skills I have ever attempted to learn, nevermind master...

I have never met an MBA grad with any interest in the subject."<

I love it. Never have truer words...

CDC...

>"Yer sister's ass" sounds to these unsophisticated ears like "I knew your mama when she was whoring".<

You're "unsophisticated" fersure fersure... the city "sophisticated" version is... "Yo Mama!"

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 13:51:51 (ZULU)

"The cartoons ran to establish — or re-establish — Denmark as bastion of Western-style liberty. But in trying to set up a force field against encroaching sharia, Jyllands-Posten and the Danes have showed us that no single bastion of Western liberty can stand alone.

"So, how do you say solidarity in Danish? If we don't find out now,..."

Click my name.

CDC'
Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 21:13:48 (ZULU)

One more:

"I do not seek to offend religious sentiment, but I will not submit to tyranny. Demanding that people who do not accept Muhammad’s teachings should refrain from drawing him is not a request for respect but a demand for submission."

Screw submission and doug sickels is exactly right: "Yer sister's ass" makes the point pretty well.

CDC'
Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 21:20:06 (ZULU)

'Lito- ATF should be....... How long did it take you to get around to reading the message- or was it just the messages? They seem to have taken a lot of the pics with models off the site.

Islam=house of peace. Reading the history of the interfamily squabbles over who would lead the religion after Mohammeds death makes the Borgias look like the Cleavers.

About ten years ago, I was refueling our Suburban with attached horse trailer at a gas station on the fringes of Fredericksburg, VA. As I walked past a BMW with New Hampshire tags in jeans, chore boots & agricultural cap, Muffy elbowed Biff and said "Look, a Hick!" I had to restrain an impulse to put on a corn pone accent and ask if they'd like me to pose for pictures. Some people got no couth. Make that a lot of (city) people.

WR Moore
Saturday, February 11, 2006, at 22:35:04 (ZULU)

Thanks catman,

I don't think that Im going to use that action,its rare LSS with a 24inch barrel in a lefty.Not to many made.

Do you or any of the other guys know or heard about Big Shooter Products.They also make custom tac rifles.The web site is www.thebigshooter.com. I found out he lives close by.

Jon Kujawa
Princeton, MN, USA - Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 01:02:23 (ZULU)

don’t know what relevancy this has but............

http://www.internationalvoting.com/int3/poll.cgi?pid=14-593&popup=1&novote=1&w=600

i really don't even know WHAT it is....just found it???

or this.........look down to, Paulie Walnuts there it is "your sisters ass"

lots of other cool stuff here to.

http://www.sopranoland.com/episodes/ep02/audio.html

Jim B.
glendale, AZ., you cant win the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless. - Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 03:00:45 (ZULU)

Gents,

Looking at the Leica APO spotters and have a counple of questions.

1) opinion on the product, good value?

2) opinion on the 77 vs. 62 mm obj. ?

As always thanks for spending my money.

'Lito you around for a few reloading questions iffin I email you?

Thanks for your help.

Greg G

Greg G
Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 04:40:48 (ZULU)

Bracin' for a foot+ of snow :(((

Greg G...

On the Leica Spotting scopes - from a practical point of view (a pun ;).

Under the best viewing conditions (overcast, slight drizzle) the 77 will be slightly sharper... under most conditions (sun light) the 77 will be worse because the larger the objective, the worse the mirage on a given day.

... and sure, e-mail your loadin' questions.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 06:00:16 (ZULU)

Hey all - had a power outage early this a.m... We're running on generator power .....

take care all....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 17:54:14 (ZULU)

Gents, I got to thinking the other night about cameras and optics. Which got me curious. With a Canon 20D You can turn the 100-400 zoom lens to a 200 -800 lens by adding a Doubler (2x) between the lens and the camera body. It narrows down the ammount of light comming in ammong other things but it gets the job done.

What I am curious about is if there is something similar that can be done to a scope to up the capabilities without changing the scope. Thus your 3.5 -10 power hunting scope becomes a 7 - 20 power target scope. No switching necisary just screw the extensing on the end....

Does anyone know of anything on the market similar or am I just swinging off into left field....

Thanks

Mourge

Morgue
SanD, Cal, US - Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 20:16:33 (ZULU)

Hi Morgue...

Not quite the same thing.

The thing you put in the camera BETWEEN the lens and camera is called a Barlow lens, ans is comprised of a negative acromat (or apocromat if its really good).

What it does is change the focal length of the prime lens (the front thingis), to make it longer, and also changes the distance from the prime lens to the film, so the image on the film is larger.

The prime lens in a scope is the front one, and you would have to put the Barlow behind the front lens - Burris puts a Barlow lens inside some of their scopes (just behind the main objectivee) to save money and make the scopes smaller (Martha says, "... and that's not a good thing").

The only other way to do it is to make the eyepiece have more magnifacation. Dick Thomas did this with the Leupold scopes to make then usable for benchrest... but it's a one time thing, cuz when you open the scope, it has to be purged with nitrogen and re-sealed - not something for the amature to do in the field.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 20:33:19 (ZULU)

Catshooter,

I picked up a new tool this weekend.It is used to mount scopes strait.It uses four points of contact, two on the barrel and two on the front objective of the scope.Then you use the bubble level that is on the tool to level the rifle.Then you hang a weight from the wall on a string and look through the scope to see if it the cross hairs match the string.It takes about five minutes.

Jon Kujawa
Sunday, February 12, 2006, at 22:20:47 (ZULU)

Kittywhacker, sometimes we trust folks. Not.

I had a LONG talk with one of the marketing guys who claimed to be an upity-up under andy york.

One of the intelligent statements I got from him was that he knew that Dick Thomas had been posting a lot of stuff lately on the boards, badmouthing lupita. I corrected that one.

According to him, and I'm using as many words of his I can without having taken dicatation to get a direct quote...... for many years Dick had been telling everyone that all scopes sucked. lupita's scopes just sucked a little less than everyone elses, but they still sucked until they left Premier. I corrected that one too.... IMO, he got williams and Dick confused LOL!

His statement was that lupita hadn't done "anything wrong", or they'd be in court. I agree. lupita did nothing illegal, or as a breach of contract. What lupita did wasn't a breach of contract, it was entirely inconsiderate of the date that brung 'em.

After agreeing that lupita had no obligation (his word) to let Dick in on anything, I explained that I agreed. Just like I explained that if he and I had been doing business for the last 25 years, and I just happened to see him broken down on the side of the road, I had no "obligation" to stop and help him. The next question, "but what would that do to our business relationship" wasn't taken too well.

His good answer was that Premier was a "little fish" - that is a quote - and inconsequential to the big lupita corporation. I let him know just how long they'd been top of the food chain too, and why.

According to this upstanding individual, lupita and Premier (Chris mostly) had settled everything and all problems were solved. I bought that, some swampland vacation condos, and a bridge.

lupita? Well, as I told that guy, I'd be really pissed if he pushed me into buying S&B from here on out. Not 'cause of the glass, or the one-turn (that was an impressive scope!!!! although I haven't felt the need for a lit reticle yet), but because of the price. Screw it. I'll just have to save an additional 3 months for a good scope (GRIN). From here on out, lupita gets NADA from me.

Duman gave me the low-down on the new rangefinder. Nifty stuff, if it works. He said the marketing guy there couldn't figure out how to use it. While it has more than Leica right now, I'm betting not for long.

Bravo
Monday, February 13, 2006, at 03:51:38 (ZULU)

Bravo: Our email link works sporadically. Did ya get my return reply?

I'm falling in on this loopita thing. S&B is a great scope that I could pass up for a MKIV in the past; next rifle is getting Kraut glass. Any loopy that comes home from now on will be from a used rack. Unless and until they wake the heck up...

I buy from two local shops back home as much as I can afford to. Bear in mind that neither gives me the best price I can get, but both give me service far and above any mail-order internet site. I get conversation, coffee, and range time (recipricol, as both owners frequent the farm). In return for friendship, I provide business. I steer my circle of friends to them as well, with caveats that they can do better on price, but "go say Hi and ask (this or that) question..." Usually, my buds buy into this atmosphere.

The point is, I find that this combination of friendship and service produces "loyalty" in the other side--business. I don't mind the extra pennies at all. Loopy seems to have missed this point.

I wonder how much of this market thinks similarly??? (I know most here will have similar stories).

I eagerly await the annual "I saw this at SHOT...does this and that....what do you think" posts! I get more here each year than any gun rag cheerleader article could ever provide.

I have a word for Aimpoints: Boring! I am sick of these damn things. Well over a thou have gone back...and still they come. I have 6 trained apprentices working them too. What a motley crew they are; an Engineer NCO, a grunt PSD-type, an aviator, a crusty O6, and two GS dudes. Oh, and commo is worked thru a spook--make that seven helpers. All will work on aimpoints, and the GS guys do NVGs and teach me. I haven't mentioned recent work, so here goes: Ten more rebuilt PVS-4s (I found gen III tubes, and these things come alive with the upgrade), 31 PVS7s, 2 -14s (these are hard to rebuild), another winnie defender (scattergun, not so nice as an 870 or even the 590), and the product line of NVEC's IR pointers (15 various units).

That is just February thus far...and a certain battalion has tremendous new capabilities. Those IRs with headmounted NVGs add a new dimension to the 50s at night, while changing nothing for day-ops. I am also curious as to how the newfangled NVECs stand up to the big Ma duece over time too.

I am getting restless. Time to go sight-seeing...

Boris
Monday, February 13, 2006, at 06:51:38 (ZULU)

Bravoe, sorry we did not hook up at Shot. When you called I was in cab line with ruck, one rolling duffel and one rolling rifle case. I had to put phone down every few seconds to move all that crap. Maybe next year? Hope all went well with your issues?

had great time at Shot This year. Wore out to bone but back to work making/shipping slings.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 16:32:30 (ZULU)

Back from the SHOT Show, got in bed at 12:45 last night, had to get up at 4:00 AM to go to work this morning, that hurts.

I got to meet Bravo, really enjoyed the conversation. Bravo did you ever get to hook up with Marco? What was your impression of the M14 mount if you don't mind commenting on it here?

I got to meet Rick B. it was my pleasure sir. I know you were very busy, thanks for your time. Shot the breeze with Undude at the Snipers Hide booth too.

Made the GAP party, what a bunch of characters! Brian Sain, Chuck Mawhinney, Major in charge of USMC Scout Sniper projects, Dick Davis, a couple of USMC Scout Sniper instructors, a couple of USMC Scout Snipers, Jacob and Lisa Bynum, Lindy Sisk, Frank Galli, George Gardner, Marty Bordsen and their crews and lots of other fine people. I'm sure I'm leaving someone out too.

I had the distinct pleasure and highlight of the whole show to shake the hand of Sgt. Sammy L. Davis, a Vietnam Medal of Honor Recipient, and thank him for his service. I'm pretty sure his name is Sammy L. it was loud and I didn't catch his first name, but Sammy is the only Vietnam recipient I could find. I got in on the tail end of the story. It's easy enough to find on the web. He was talking to a bunch of the AmericanSnipers.org crew. A good friend of mine, Ken Darnell was there with Brian Sain, Steve Sheldon and a bunch of other guys donating their time for a worthy cause.

Thanks to all you service personell, current and retired and all you cops holding the line at home and for donating your time away from your families to help out the snipers on the line right now.

I was a great show, I highly recommend it to anyone.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 16:45:05 (ZULU)

Dudes,

Shot was terrific! Rent-a-bimbos everywhere! Lots of gun stuff to see, too! Camelback booth was exceptional. Plenty of cameltoe.

If you go to Shot, you need to do it with Bravo. He's like a kid in a carnival. If we didn't have radios, I woulda had to put a leash on him. He was all over everything, interrogating reps, digging into details, wrangling info out of everyone. Bravo knows the technology, the industry, and the players. I was impressed.

The S&B with the Gen-II reticle is the cat's meow. I think one trend I've seen is a move towards 34-mm tubes from several vendors, including IOR. It's still a small niche, but it seems to be increasing (note: this is not a market sample, just a sense). The IOR scopes appeared to be top notch. The view was crystal clear.

SIG is offering it's flavor of the AR-15, the SIG-556, to the American market, with a blow-back piston design. Way cool.

HK is not building anything in the states until they win a huge army contract. Note: don't hold your breath.

Tons of new and intersting stuff on Glock (yawn!). See Bravo for details.

The Loopie melted-plastic-look scope is just as crappy in real life as in the photos. That should get someone fired. The new Loopie range-finders have a lot of features not found in the Swaros or consumer Leicas. Using LCD display, you can choose from a variety of different reticles for targeting. Several different modes are available, including an inclinometer, nearest reading, farthest reading, rain, and a few others. Also, you can program in ballistic info, and the rangefinder will spit out the hold-overs for you. The LCD seemed to wash out against dark backgrounds (duh!) and the backlight seemed to cause internal shadows when activated (I saw a shadow reticle when activated). It needs some tweaking.

Kimber of America had a new line of rifles with synthetic stocks that were light as a feather. Not heavy barrels, but possible a superlight spotter rifle.

Gotta get to work, more later.

Duman

Duman
Monday, February 13, 2006, at 16:47:37 (ZULU)

Tony, I forgot. The M14 mount was the best I have ever seen. Period dot! It blows everything else away. Jardine talked with Marco on it for a long time. Jardine, whos is every builders worse nightmare when it comes to talking about work and materials, was very impressed also. They have a winner there.

Stan if you dont agree with me on this I will have to head lock you into some brains LOL.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 17:00:18 (ZULU)

Forgot to mention, it was great meeting a lot of folks. Tony B., Mike 'Undude' Miller (should be changed to 'Mr. BIG-dude'), InSain, Marty (Badger-O), Rick B., Kevin M. (hope Andy's feeling better!), and several others. Maybe next year my tour coordinator (Bravo) can get us hooked into some of those group dinners. Sounds like fun!

InSain's sniper table was busier than heck, both Fri/Sat, and probably the other days as well. The challenge coins were perfect, and they got a lot of support. I'm hoping they met they're goals for the show.

That crazy cajun has started something BIG. He deserves credit for helping a lot of people.

Met a reservist at the Trijicon booth. His ACOG was on display. Some Iraqi sniper (who had two kills that day) shot at him, and hit the ACOG, the bullet was still inside, and the ACOG still worked. Given the trajectory, they determined the general direction, and turned the tanks onto the area, and leveled that part of Falujah (sp?).

Gotta love a happy ending.

Duman
Monday, February 13, 2006, at 17:31:11 (ZULU)

Thanks Lito,

Wasn't sure how it would work.

Anyone heard anything about this new UN resolution that is supose to do away with "small arms" IE anything that shoots that isn't government owned atleast thats what the article I read sounded like.

What are the chances that it would pass and our Government would knuckle under? Seems like if it goes through then all it would take is a Heavy lefter as a pres to sign the stupid thing into existance...

Later gents

Mourge

Morgue
SanD, Cal, US - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 18:10:28 (ZULU)

Duman, man I'm sorry I forgot to mention your name as well. I knew I would forget someone major who I met. Sorry about that, it was very good to make your aquaintence as well.

Glad to hear you liked the mount Mike. Marco's a great guy, his word is gold too.

The last time I say Andy he was at the Badger party smoking a big cigar and drinking beer. The next day kevin tells us Andy's still at the hotel blowing chunks. LOL, BWAAAAAHAAAAAA. Gotta know your limits Andy. Sorry I didn't get to say goodbye to you.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 18:13:33 (ZULU)

My question is in reference to the Winchester M70 Stealth. Could someone tell me what improvements (If any) were made from the Stealth to the Stealth 2.

Sam Gates
Birmingham, Alabama, USA - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 18:14:32 (ZULU)

Tony,

I'm not someone 'major', so no worries. ;8-p

The big boyz, you, Bravo, Un-HUGE-dude, etc. were the main players. I enjoyed listening to you guys dissect that M1 mount. It was a nice piece of casting/machining.

Duman

Duman
Monday, February 13, 2006, at 19:27:07 (ZULU)

Morgue: The old UN Small Arms control chesnut has been around a long time. I don't want to get anybody going here, but we are a soverign nation, we vote and American opinion has been going against the small arms control crowd.

I've got it well behind other things on my list of worries.

Are you still on your beach vacation?

CDC'
Monday, February 13, 2006, at 19:56:36 (ZULU)

Andy and I got home around ten o’clock last night.

He and I were then off to work this morning (SSDD).

Tomorrow I’m off to South Florida for the week.

SHOT was as usual “too fast, too furious”.

Lots of names and lots of faces.

S&B is the heat!!!

I’m putting together the cash to get a 4x-16x with all metric turrets and a Gen II.

I will not look back.

Andy recovered from the Badger/G.A. Party by noon the following day. He needs to get into condition for that sort of thing.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 20:12:13 (ZULU)

Lito,

Kevin's right, that S&B with the Gen-II was the kitty-whackers-meow. Premier Reticles website doesn't have the S&B stuff on site, so maybe the official announcement of the cooperation hasn't been made.

BTW, the Gen-IIxr reticle looks interesting. Has anyone tried this?

Duman

Duman
Monday, February 13, 2006, at 21:43:29 (ZULU)

Undude/Mike:

Got a URL for the latest M14 mount?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 22:09:59 (ZULU)

Re: M1A Country

The JAE-100/M1A.

(click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Monday, February 13, 2006, at 22:23:24 (ZULU)

Guys, Now heres a Class Act from just across da river from Joisey.

Da Kid from Brrrrooklyn!

An opinion on just about everything . LOL

http://www.thekidfrombrooklyn.com/

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 00:50:16 (ZULU)

Random thoughts (at your own peril, of course!). You get a Las Vegas blackjacks worth of thoughts, and they should be worth every penny you paid for 'em. Just about gear, as I wanted to (ahem) keep it short. Er, shorter.

#1 the mount Tony brought by..... I like it. Seems Marco (yeah Tony, he gave me a call not too much later) decided to opt out of the "shoot loose" parts that the ARMS incorporates (and I admonish people to discard before installation). My take is that it's a touch higher than I prefer, but definately no worse than the Brookfield. As well, if you're going to mount funky optics like the ACOG, that's the mount for you, as it extends further rearward than the others, and by a significant length. Of course, that option limits rear iron sight travel because the rail is now over the rear sight, but that's the trade-off with this stick and those optics. Without actually trying one, I can only give a tentative thumbs-up on that puppy. Marco says it's not to be tightened as snugly as I'm used to, but it could very well be that he's come up with something that doesn't need that much torque. Still not sure what to think about the fact the locating tabs aren't there (up, fore, and aft of the side bolt), but with the front pad, rear clip guide attachment point, and a solid point on the side it may very well be that those aren't required. Because of the way the stripper clip guide part attaches to the mount (double bolts into the base), I don't see the ability to adjust for angle. Solid, but not adjustable if you need another 20 MOA or so.

#2 InSain and his guys were busy all the time. If there's someone I want to see busy, it's them. I want them so busy accepting donations that BKS has no time to flirt with the Aimpoint gals. Well, OK, he's NEVER that busy, but still they deserve as many kudos as possible.

#3 OTIS gear. Gotta love that stuff! Thanks Patron, that was well worth the price of admittance. I can see a permanent place for that on the ruck. Benefit: light, small, and easy to keep on you. Not a Boretech or Dewey, but I don't strap those to my ruck. Typically.

#4 "tactical" lights. Seems like everyone has 'em out, kind of like AR parts. I've decided to stick with Surefire, although there's others out there that appear to be just as good. Pentagon is impressive, but at this point they have no weapon lights similar to the X200. IMO, we're not going to have much longer of a wait until the market bears an indestructable 200 lumen light with a 6 hour battery life, all in a lightweight, small package.

#5 CHOW! MountainHouse has come out with a repackaging of their same menu. This one is identical in all but two areas. First, instead of a 16 ounce pack (supposedly that's enough for two meals. Yeah, right) it's a 12 oz pack. Secondly, the envelope itself is vacuum packed. Those of you who know what it's like trying to fit 5 to 7 days worth of chow in your ruck will appreciate this. Both my son and myself have eaten EVERYTHING in their non-vegitarian line, and while some is better than others, our recommendation is that it's all good, except for the eggs.

#6 SAA! I'm a nobody when it comes to SAA revolvers. I don't know much of anything, and my opinion should be taken with that disclaimer. Taurus has a new offering out, the Gaucho, and it actually looked and felt rather nice. For me though, if I were to spend money on a play-thing (yeah, like I've got the dough to do that!), I'd have to go with the Cimarron Thunderer. For a plinker though, the Taurus should at least be given a lookie.

#7 Since I'm on a play-thing thought, I should mention the CZ 452s again. The Varmint would be the other toy I'd reward myself with, if there were anything to reward, or anything to purchase a reward with. I know what they can do.

#8 The 24/7 series from Taurus. For a CCW, it feels good to me. Haven't tried one, but it's rare for me to think something feels good. I didn't say excellent, just good. Doesn't impress me as something I'd want as a duty pistol though.

#9 The XD is causing me quite some consternation! Sproingfeld Aromry brought out the new 45ACP version of the XD. Hand fit for me? Excellent. In talking with one of the Sproingfeld hotrods, I found out that the 45GAP version (in the 9/40 frame) had been shelved temporarily. The ACP version is slightly bigger, and I do mean slightly. It is, literally, the only high-cap 45 ACP I've been able to get to the trigger on. I should mention the trigger too...... The Sproingfeld cuss'em shop had some there which were representative of different modifications. While the out of the box trigger wasn't bad, the one from the cuss'em shop was rather nice. From what I was told, the ACP version has a much preferrable recoil characteristic to the GAP version. In the 5 inch "tactical" (I'm really hating that EVERYTHING is now "tactical") version may very well make a nice duty pistol! And yes, it hurts me to say something nice about Sproingfeld. My first question is "what do I get with this pistol that I don't get with a Glock 37". Other than the commercial ammo availability, I'm not sure. Adding to this that I've heard from a rental range operator that the XD isn't as durable as the Glock..... who knows. I think it'll have to be a matter of both accompanying me to a range, with a timer. Only one way to see. I will couch this though with the statement that if the XD works better for me, it'll see a heck of a lot of abuse before I'll trust it.

#10 S&B optics. I'm impressed. I'd spoke with Dick about these last year, and taken a lookie at what he had. This year, well, with things the way they were....... All I can say is that I've purchased my last lupita, at least if it means money to them. I suppose I'm an S&B convert, although I haven't shelled out the $2700 yet.

#11 The black plastic barbie doll for boys! Yup, the AR15 and it's clones. Man, dress 'em up for a night of CQB, dress 'em down for a day out on the service rifle course. Any way you go, you'll buy the barbie corvette and the barbie townhouse as well, just to stay "tactical". Uh, yeah. That having been said, I thought it was interesting that the market has driven Colt to produce a gas piston driven upper. Got to take that one apart, and was impressed at the redesign. The question begs, WHY. My guess? Leitner-Wise, Lewis Machine Tool Co (not piston driven, but their monolithic upper was WAY COOL - if they offered that with anything other than a heavy contoured barrel, I'd be in love), (credit to Duman) Highpriced Krautguns -HK, and POF / DSA. I'm sure I missed some as well. Now the REAL question is: "is a piston gas system on the AR required?". Call me silly, but before spending my bucks, I'd like to know what improvement I'm buying, or if it's all marketing hype. The S&W AR clone? What can I say, it struck me as just another AR clone, which it is. Why is S&W even in that business? My take on that is 2 parts: first, S&W competes directly with Colt for handgun sales. Even moreso now that S&W builds 1911s. If you're going to kick your enemy, easiest to do so when they're down. Secondly, it appears that there is no market bottom to the 1911 and AR market. Surprising as heck for me, but that's the way it seems. If you don't make a 1911 or an AR, you're a nobody in the industry. Get used to the idea. I made the observation that this year the HK 416 had a dustcover on the ejection port a-la the standard AR. Last year (er, year before last?) I specifically asked about the lack of said dustcover. The gentleman in the black HK sweater told me in an Austrian accent that such was not needed, as they had improved the design to the point it was essentially immune to dirt entering through the ejection port. So why does it have one now? According to the guy speaking distinctly American English, just to passify those of us who say "but it doesn't have a dustcover!!!". Not needed, just giving the customer what they want. OK. So who's the customer on these things? Well, since they won't sell to us lowlife civies, and they don't have goobermint contracts (like Duman said, when they have contracts here, THAT makes it feasable to sell to us lowlifes), that says to me "no takers as of yet". One has to wonder why. For the third year, I stated that my opinion was they'd sell here. For the third year, I got a "that's nice, but not worth our time and money to sell to you". HK? Eh!

#12 SIG! I was geared to really love the new Sig 556. Essentially a "civilianized" 550 (not to mention that I had mentally gotten the 550 and the FNC operating systems confused in my head for a bit), it was one of the "HAD TO SEE" items. Heavy. An all steel beast that I can't explain. Literature says it comes in just under 7 pounds unloaded. I say "sure feels like a 308 in my hands!". Dunno if it's the balance or what, but I'll give this one a pass. If it was lighter, to compete with the feel of the other 223s, I'd really consider it. Consider it by torture test that is. As it feels like a 308 to me, unless I pit it against other 308s (where it'd lose instantly due to caliber), well, just t'aint worth it. Insider info (GRIN) is that there's a single action P220 coming out next year though. Now THAT ought to be worth looking into!

#13 Keeping my butt covered. Looks like 5.11 will have some serious competition. I'll preface this with the statement that I still prefer desert summer ripstop pants (the old 100% ripstop cotton type, no matter how "bleached out" they look from too many washings) to most anything else. The 5.11 canvas pants are thick, and the helpful gal there told me to get some of their nylon ones instead for the heat as they'd be more breathable. Nylon. More breathable. Uh, yeah. Woolrich has the right idea. Their competing line is new, but they did have some fabric samples there of what is coming. What's coming appears quite good. They've got some good beta testers too, so I have high hopes.

#14 NVDs. Man, these things have gotten GOOD. Impressive good, and the prices have come down. Thoughts, thoughts!

#15 IOR seems to be interesting me more and more. As a unique turn, I can say the same about Shepherd as well, although I'm not quite sure about the two-piece tube. I believe there's a pair of Steiner binos in my future.

#16 Putting more in less, the 5.7X28 and the 6.5 Grendel. First the FN PS90. Now I'm no expert in this kind of stuff, so color me ignorant. I thought a PDW was supposed to be small and light, to take the place of a pistol. And I'll even give the PS90 some credit on the "small" aspect. But it's roughly 6 pounds, same as a Bushy ultralight AR! So what do you get as an improvement on the Bushy? Well, there's the little round that doesn't recoil as much, 'cause it doesn't have the umph of the 556. Lovely. I like the 50 round horizontal mags, but they're plastic. IMO, the AR mags are fragile to begin with, so why would I want to go plastic?! No thanks. As an aside, just last night I received some of the Singapore steel NATO mags. Haven't run ammo through them yet (Bub is under the weather), but they appear to be quality. Some Magpul anti-tilt followers and old-style Magpuls arrived today. Testing commences upon the arrival of the XCR. The Grendel though has me interested. As a CQB round, I see this as a non-issue. What is there to gain over the lightweight / low recoil of TAP in 223? I'm thinking more along the lines of something fired from a 20" barrel. Jim has plenty of experience with the 123 grain Scenars, and I don't see a reason why one of those cranked out at just shy of 2600 fps wouldn't be a good ticket in that platform. Would it be better than the 223 at range? Dunno, but I'm interested enough to take a closer look.

#17 Tritium on your '14 or AK? Looks like XS is the only option for a '14 front sight. Not sure how it'll work, or if the blade will be so wide as to limit accurate shooting at range, but probably worth a go to find out.

#18 WINCHESTER actions. I had all kinds of problems mentally with the demise of the model 70. This trip cured those ills. Kimber has a really nice model 70 actioned stick out, built by Kimber. For actinos, so does Montana Rifles (thanks Wes!), and of course there's a full 3 years of projected sales in Winchester actions stored up for FN builds. Looks like the next generation may not have a true Winchester, but the model 70 action is living on rather well.

#19 The new S&W M&P. I was really geared to like this pistol. I can't tell you how well it works, or much of anything about it, other than someone I respect got the scoop on one by putting scoops of nasty in one. Unfortunately, the thing just didn't feel right in my hand. No natural pointing, no ease of engagements, just no love connection. That's all personal preference though, so take what I said with a grain of salt. There's many folks here that love the N frame Smiths, but since I can't get to the trigger in DA mode, I don't love 'em. Doesn't mean either one isn't great, just not for me. If you want a 9 or 40, check it out. Reliability reportedly in Glock category.

#20 The Robinson XCR. Still vaporware as of present, although I've paid mine off. Still didn't get to take one of theirs home though. The change of buttstock added a bit of weight, but as it's all on the shoulder, maneuverability didn't seem to be hampered. I see this as "the better mousetrap", when it comes to the 223 platform. There's only one way to tell for sure though, and that's the old standby torture test. One of the 19th group guys boasted that he could make any weapon malf. According to these guys, he's been stumped so far on the XCR. Doesn't surprise me much, as the upper is essentially an AK.

#21 And lastly, GLOCK. Another of the "must see" vendors, at least for me, was CCF / RaceFrames. Glock full-size (17/22/31/37) frames in aluminum, with stainless steel and titanium coming up. I know, I know..... so what's the bonus in buying one of these? Simple. Some folks, such as myself, don't much care for the full sized frame girth. My carry pieces have been modified, so that the mainspring housing area (using a 1911 term) is flat instead of arched. The grip area is raised slightly, including scooping upwards at the triggerguard / frame intersection, and a beavertail (if you can call it that) is added. The grip is high enough after this modification that without the beavertail, the slide "tracks" on the web of my hand. For CCW, I also prefer the full sized frames to be shortened to accept the compact mags. With the exception of that last part, these new frames do exactly that, and I'm wagering that a decent smith can do the same operation on the metal. The rear of the frame is selectable, just slides on a rail and secured with a rollpin. One of the selections is a "1911 grip angle" option, and it felt GOOD. To top that off, I got to play with the Lightning Strike trigger job. Nice. VERY nice. I'll have one coming VERY soon. Now adding to the non-Glock Glock frame and the non-Glock Glock trigger parts, let's add a non-Glock Glock slide! I've been personally bugging Caspian to make another run of their Glock slides for many months now, and they're promising to do so again. A drop-in replacement, you'll get your choice of model 34 or 35 slides. Maybe, maybe a 17 / 22 slide as well. From what they said, they've also made longslides as well in the past. So what's the benefit of this? Simple: the 34 / 35 are race pistols, designed for the shooting sports. They've also got a crap injection hole in the middle of the slide, which facilitates use of ported barrels. The Caspian slides won't have those, unless you pay for that option. I don't WANT that option. I want a longer slide! In the 1911 platform, I believe a 5" barrel is optimal. A G34 slide though, is about the same length as a Government model slide....... just containing a longer barrel. The "real" longslides, the 17L and 24, besides having the crap injection port, are just too long for my taste.

Bravo
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 01:43:59 (ZULU)

Dang it Bravo......where's the paragraph on the new RRA 308?

Waiting with baited breathe (and stinky too), Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 02:19:02 (ZULU)

Bravo.

I think the 'Grendel' comes up a bit short in case capacity for the 123. Just my $.02 opinion.

medicjim
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 02:31:10 (ZULU)

I came across an interesting bit on the development of the '06 and the 173 bullet - good (short) read!

http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-July99.html

BRAVO... Dudeski - you need a nap! ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 05:14:59 (ZULU)

Smith M&P- we've got 2 for T&E. Damn do they shoot! Great first stroke, reset is about .140, longer than I'm used to but I expect I can learn it. The top of the slide is contoured to draw the eye to the sights. BUT- Bravo is right about feel. They shoot great, feel ah.....not one with the hand. They spent a pile of money on the Sigma getting the thing to fit the hand. Then for the M&P, they threw most of the money out the window so they can have the interchangable backstraps. About the only thing they seem to have kept is the grip angle (same as the 1911). Wonder if Bondo will stick to the inserts?

AH-HA!!! Tried a Pachmyr grip sleeve on the M&P. Great improvement. They still need to go back to the machine shop on the frame molds. The thing feels too short frontstrap to backstrap.

It dawned on me at a wierd hour the other day that this pistol may be the Beta version for the .45 design for the service pistol contract. If Smith doesn't fix the M&P grip area, Hogue is gonna make a fortune. Can you buy stock in Hogue?

WR Moore
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 09:01:57 (ZULU)

Bravo:

Why pistons? Indeed, why? IMHO, it is to appease those who cite ad naseum the virtues of the AK over the weakness of the AR. Which (still MHO) boils down to laziness and/ or ignoring the sage advice of the BTDT NCOs---not cleaning and servicing IAW the current environment. Too easy to just apply "field" cleaning ala blank firing on FT Bragg or wherever---and not addressing the new conditions of dust (or humidity in the jungle). Me personally; I do not need the wieght and am satisfied with current design and ammo (mind you, 75s and 77s in that regard). I guess if you love AKs and have a lower laying about, this may be your idea of a great design...

I have two pair of steiner binos now. Big and tiny. Both are, to quote Geoff, bright as an ACOG. Actually, he offered that to the acog being bright as my steiners. I only wish the little ones had the MIL markers in them! The big ones do, but are big...and heavy:(( I just have to remember, spotting means you gets the lighter gun...so maybe I am being silly about where the wieght needs to be trimmed. Perspective...

Speaking of under the weather...I am too. Ran out of cipro, and no doc on hand who i know...rats.

And, it was last year you panned the dust cover-less HK design!

Come'on guys--where's the rest of the reviews??? And I want pictures of the camletoe eerrrrr, camelbak booth!

Livin' vicariouly thru the roster while in the middle east...whatta life.

Boris
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 11:32:08 (ZULU)

Bravo: Yep, CZ 452s are good. My .17 really benefited by a brief trip to Geoff Corn's shop for a trigger-job and pillar-bedding. It helped that my daughter gave me back MY 2X7 Loopie and took back her 4X.

Boris: What big Steiners do you have? By being patient and very cheap, I got a steal on the 15X56 Bighorns on eBay. They are supposed to have the same glass as the Senators (which they say is the best they make) and they have the same durability and water resistance. The image is so sharp that I have to be careful I don't cut myself. The weight and bulk are manageable. They work great on the Loopie field tripod.

I keep saying Leupold, but Burris makes a scope that would work even better on the .17 and lots of companys make tripods.

For VDH on Europe's strategic situation click my name. To paraphrase Trotsky: "You may not be interested in history, but history is interested in you."

CDC'
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 11:58:55 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Great reviews! I agree with Boris that we "NEED" some photos. If you get a 452 Varmint you'll love it. Gonna take my .17 HM2 out today for the first time.

Boris,

Can't you find a friendly Navy medic somewhere? Those guys are usually good at performing miracles.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 14:06:18 (ZULU)

Mk4

That M1A stock is beautiful, almost makes me want to scope mine. However, that stock isn't worth anything without being able to scope the rifle properly. The scope mount in the pictures still has just a 2 point mounting system no matter how nice it looks. Am I missing something here?

For a second there I'm thinking how I can afford it. Then the reality sets in. Got my blood going for a minute.

And NO I don't mean to bring this topic up here.

Doug

Doug Sickels
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 15:26:50 (ZULU)

Mike, sorry about that! I knew I'd forget at least two or three things I looked at.

Patron Kittywhacker, I don't need a nap, I need a life.

Pictures? Well, if you insist (GRIN). No Camelback or Aimpoint chippies though. Come to think of it, no sticks either.

Another ace for me.... that makes 22 in my hand. DOH!

#22 Ratguns! Well, more mental confusion. I stopped by the DPMS booth first, dunno why I had DPMS in my head. Pulled out the mag, and after thinking "this is the FAL mag stick", got to looking at the mag to see what was required. No, it wasn't a FAL mag. Then I noticed where I was (RRA was right next to DPMS) and thought DOH! What threw me off was that DPMS now has dust covers on their ratguns. Something changes all the time, eh? That's as far as I went into the DPMS, 'cause I have no use for a stick that uses $40 custom mags I'd have to buy, if I can get essentially the same stick that uses $4 mags I've already got a slew of. NEXT! The RRA booth, and specifically the ratgun section, were hopping. The RRA rep with the ratgun was getting more attention than InSain gave the Aimpoint chippies. Yes, even the blonde. I got a couple of short questions in, and listened, but didn't get to ask everything I wanted to. FAL mags, yup. No mods required. Standard mag release button and all. I wanted to ask if they'd purchased the rights to the Bushy stick, and what changes had been made, 'cause the Bushies had a bad habit of breakage. Nope. No chance to ask. The stick felt good, looked solid enough, and I'm guessing that folks like Master Rick won't have a use for it, 'cause it didn't have a HB. Will they produce a HB? Dunno, didn't get to ask that either. Didn't take long for me to figure out I wasn't going to get any questions asked, so that was it for me. Right now (understanding that I'm looking more into a lighter, standard weight barrel than a target grade stick) this one appears to be "for me". We'll see. Due to the Bushy problems, I'll let a few get out into the system before I get one though.

#16 revisited: Jim, I think you MAY be right. Here's the dope I got from Alexander Arms. With Lapua brass (!) and a 123 Scenar loaded to 49,000 Max PSI, from a 20" barrel they claim 2575 fps. I thought that the comparison chart they made was a touch "misleading" though, as they compared those numbers with the 118LR at 2550 fps. Uh, touch slow there. As well, I think many folks would say a casing designed to be AR friendly should function well from 16" barrels (or a touch shorter). My guess is that a 16" barrel would cut velocity in the Grendel too much. Still, there's the concept of smaller casings being more efficient. I recall the 30X1.5, and being amazed at the fact they could get velocity out of that stubby thing. That having been said, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what the BC of that 123 Scenar is in relation to everything around it. Much better than my 175 SMKs, and the MV is only off about 100 fps. I don't wanna sound like a plug for the Grendel, 'cause I'm not. Just saying that it's interesting me enough to look into.

#11 revisited: Patron Joe, I agree with much of that, no question. While I'm not trying to take sides ('cause I'm not educated enough with both systems to make a statement based on experience), if what the Highpriced Krautgun rep had to say was the truth, they've got a more reliable system. He said they tested in Yuma, with "special" sand to mimic the ultrafine stuff you see (or, for that matter, the red sandstone dust here). According to them, insane amounts of ammo with no cleaning whatsoever, and plenty of sand thrown in it. This year, the American rep (in response to my question about the dustcover) said he watched them toss one on the ground, open the dust cover, take a shovel full of mud and tamp the mud into the open action. Still worked just fine. Now, this may be excessive, but the bigger question for me would be "what does this buy me"? I don't see the exhaust gasses coming back into the system as the problem. Annoyance maybe, but not the problem.

#7 Revisited: yeah, the CZ452 is top flight. Geoff did one for my boy as well. There's something about shooting his that's fun, since it's so short. Guess I just want one of my own ;-) Or maybe it's just that I like to hear "can I shoot my rifle now?". HA!

Bravo
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 15:53:34 (ZULU)

Bravo,

You're friend, the physicist, seemed to think highly of the 6.5-Grendel (sp?). IIRC, he indicated there was increasing interest by the mil-types, and Alexander Arms was providing gear and ammo for testing. You may have some comments to fill in details.

Bolt, RRA had so many flavors of 223s and 308s I don't remember what I was looking at. They probably had >75 rifles on display, with lots of AR-10s. By that time, I was beat, and prepping to leave for the airport. Bravo can provide details.

CDC' is right, Burris makes fine scopes for many applications, and I'll move back to them for some of my lower end scopes. I picked up some Swaros for mid-range stuff, and have to start saving for the S&B for high-end apps.

Mentally spent several years of income at the show. The innovations just keep coming.

Duman

Duman
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 16:35:57 (ZULU)

CDC',

That last article was a good read. Question: where are the russians and chinese? Is it because they're tough on terrorists, the thugs are less inclined to attack them? Will the Russians and Chinese work with Europe to curb the Muslim attacks?

There's a lot of skulduggery going on, so I wouldn't place my bets on anything.

Duman

Duman
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 16:56:55 (ZULU)

Gents,

Visiting my brother-in-law Tony K. (sometimes lurker) and logged on for a minute.

Shot Show...Dammit, I'm going to find a way to go next year. Obviously, Bravo needs some adult supervision...and some professional help, as well.

Sounds like everyone had a great time. Will comment when I get home tomorrow evening.

'Til then.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 17:20:40 (ZULU)

Hey Joisey...

Doggie bag on the way - insured!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 18:27:56 (ZULU)

Gents,i have a colt sp-1 upper still covered in cosmaline and was wondering if any of you AR guy's might be intrested.It is marked "CMP chrome bore"and has triangular handguards and is unfired.

Thanks in advance, Scott.

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 19:58:44 (ZULU)

Well, returned from SHOT. Nice to meet all the folks there. Brian Sain and Doug B, Duman, Rick, George and folks who I can't recall right off. Duman, sorry to act all shellshocked at the GA gig, you caught me after a few too many. I was hanging out at the door near the kegs because I needed the space.

Gas piston AR's: Well, the big advantage is to avoid gas and heat dumped into the bolt carrier. Heat which kills extractor springs. Also, it's much easier on the actions when using short 10.5-11.5" barrels. I have not had much problem with gas impingement guns when using M16A4's or 14.5 M4's, but I don't run a can. Where I really see the advantage is running anything suppressed. Less filth and heat into the gun, which is the biggest issue with cans.

I was working with the Leitner-Wise folks at their shoot on Saturday and we ran a 6.8SPC 14.5" gun with Jet suppressor for 400+ rds with no problems. We ran a 16" gun with Vortex birdcage for 1200+rds with no stoppages, to include full auto. That was a nice gun when equipped with Loopie 3-9 MR/T on a Larue SPR mount.

We also played with a gas piston version of the gun DPMS submitted for the XM110 contract. 7.62x51. Also with Jet can. 300+ rds without problem until the gas key allen screws backed out and allowed the gun to go down. A little red locktite or peening will fix that. You can actualy use locktite because the carrier doesn't get hot enough to break down locktite like on an impingement design. Silly shit that gets missed on prototype guns and makes you look bad.

Summary: If you're going to go suppressed(and the USMC is intending to go that way based on AAR's and the new T/E out for commentary which includes cans for everything from M9 to M240G) you should go gas piston. If not and you already have legacy guns, no big deal, go impingement and spend money on training. If you don't have anything yet, gas piston is better in some aspects, and it'll come down to costs per system. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 20:41:58 (ZULU)

Dang, Ken, I wish I'd known you were going to be at the GAP party. I was there also, we were probably within 3 feet of each other.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, February 14, 2006, at 21:53:30 (ZULU)

Guys,

Happy valentine's day. Anyone else come close to stomping the salepeople at the jewelry store? I guess those bastards have never heard of "personal space". If there's anything I hate, it's someone that insists on hovering all over me, constantly pestering me.

Travis Morgan
wichita, Ks, - Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 00:05:51 (ZULU)

Hey hawgs, just breezin' through, been real busy with work and other related projects.

'Lito.....been thinking about you and ruggus rattus. I say a little prayer now and again too. You guys deserve to have a big upswing in life. I would like to believe (especially since this is America) that eventually, the righteous will prevail.

SHOT...jealous man, jealous.

Dan, I borrowed those binos at one time for evaluation. They are the 8X40 military model IIRC. OD, rubber armored. And very, very nice glass. Very bright, clear, and detailed.

HK - Some people get a hard on for 'em, but I think it's more gun snobbery than anything. Now, granted the MP5 is the only subgun I really enjoy. However, they don't have the only gas piston upper on the market. Keep your weapon clean. Use the correct lube for the environment. Don't overlube. Not rocket science. The SL8 and UMP rifles with the stupid grey butthole stocks are nice guns that are done up to be politically correct. I have no use for politically correct. And just because it says "HK" on it, does not make it worth 40% more in my book. Yours may read differently. To each his own.

Browning HP. This HP I have just will not run without jamming. In my opinion, the extractor tension was way insufficient. What the hell, I got it cheap so I could play with it anyway. So, I took a little off the back of the extractor until it holds the case against the breech block. (I know you told me not to do this 'Lito....that's why I bought another extractor :-)) Anyway, now it functions 100% and is more accurate...close to one hole accurate! But it now hits 6 inches low!!! Too tight I am guessing. I'll have to do some more reading on this thing before I start over with another extractor. I indeed it should function with zero extractor tension, then I'm thinking maybe the chamber is too rough, and after the initial recoil impulse, it's dragging the case and the slide is continuing to the rear. Anyone want to pass on a suggestion or hint, let me know. I like playing with this kind of stuff. So much so, I could probably put a mill/drill/lathe to use when I have a shop again.

Reloading. GIbrass.com has WC844 for a good price. With the skyrocketing price of .223/5.56 ammo, I am thinking of putting all my .223 brass to use this year. Anyone use this powder with 77 grain Match for an AR platform? Results? How about the IMR 4895 for that load or the 168s/175s in .308?

Hoping to hit Badlands finally this year. I have around 400 rounds of mixed LC, IMI, Federal, and Remmy brass. That is no good. Up until now, I always loaded and fired in 200-250 round lots. I'll need a lot of at least 500 to do a class. I will probably order from gibrass, however it's machine gun fired which isn't as fun as bolt gun brass. If any hawgs have that much .308 LC or IMI brass laying around they can sell cheap, contact me off the list if you are inclined, thanks in advance!

Where's Bill? Hope you're feeling OK pal....

Take care hawgsters!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 00:42:44 (ZULU)

Travis...no, but I would like to boot the heck out of anyone at 1-800-flowers.com. On the holidays my girlfriend takes time off and she drives to Chitcago to help her sister who owns the 800-flowers distribution center there. I put in an order for a dozen roses to be delivered to her....the order should have literally come off the serve in New York onto her desk before 1700 today. Would have been a great suprise. Somehow, they screwed it up.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 00:55:05 (ZULU)

Thanks lito.

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 02:22:10 (ZULU)

Ken M,

You must have had a few more than a few at the GA party. I wasn't there. ;8-p

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 02:54:32 (ZULU)

Alright, who was the tall thin guy who came up to me at the GA party and claimed to enjoy the Hell out of my posts?? He came up, shook my hand, said "Dude, I love your posts", I looked at him sort of weird, and I never saw him again.

The world wonders. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 03:04:18 (ZULU)

Ed Koch on the cartoon wars quotes: "The Times reported on February 4th the comments of a cleric at the Al-Omari mosque in Gaza, “We will not accept less than severing the heads of those responsible.” Regrettably, many Westerners don’t take Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Osama bin Laden’s principal deputy, at his word when he said, “Killing the infidels is our religion, slaughtering them is our religion, until they convert to Islam or pay us tribute.”"

CDC'
Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 13:30:08 (ZULU)

At issue is the fact that the candy-asses who populate the US media won't publish the pictures posted at the link you get when you click my name.

C&P that and post it everywhere including reposting it here. Can these midevial yahoos chop off all our heads?

CCW: If you don't have one, get one.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 13:38:27 (ZULU)

Ken M: Secret admirer? Heheh. Good point on the suppressors...forgot about that, the 10" carbine did get warm, now that you mention it.

Geoff: Good to see ya posting.

Geoff and I are debating the merits of major caliber LR arms. He is thinking fifty, me 338. I am looking at it as a 1300 yd and under possible range--where targets are infrequent at best beyond that. His take I think is the fifty carries out there with more authority, and has anti-material capability worth noting. I think I am spoiled with "other options" in my current line of work---if I need to take a car down, there's plenty of choices on hand. So maybe I am not thinking on the anti-material thing as much as I should. For me, a shoulder arm is used on soft targets...and my judgement is clouded due to my current employment.

Anyone used a AR30 in 338? How does it do?

Lito: I can go back and read praise for the AR50 in the archives, but anything to add to this?

Since a major caliber arm is a major investment---which way would any of youz guys go and why??? Think of it as an either/ or and no limits on what one you choose.

I'd like to hear perspectives (and I bet Geoff would too)...

Boris
Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 13:55:05 (ZULU)

Ken M,

I think ".... claimed to enjoy the Hell out of my posts..." describes most of us on the Roaster. You lost me at tall & thin, though, since I'm neither. Wish I coulda been there. Maybe next year one of youz could sneak me in. ;8-p

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 17:05:08 (ZULU)

Ken M. That was me that came up to you and told you that. I love the references to the "Savages." Keep on doing what you do best!

I had also consumed just "a couple" of GA beers as well. It was a great time!

Michael
Los Gatos, CA, - Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 18:16:25 (ZULU)

Ken, good to meet you at Shot. Would have loved to spend some more time with you, but had head spinning in all directions. If you make it next year how about you me and Bravo have dinner.

Bravo lets try and plan next time before I have crap booked? Sorry you had to bail on the next night. Come by booth next time and wait until it slows so we can talk.

Well back to making slings

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 18:50:20 (ZULU)

Next year, I'm gonna find a way to get there...you bastards are having too much fun without me

medicjim
Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 20:31:22 (ZULU)

Hogs, Hoggettes, gang, lurkers and everyone I've failed to include in this, Maj Joe is 500 votes ahead in FIRST PLACE!!! HOWEVER this contest does not end until 28th of February and I'm expecting a last minute run by other contestants.

PLEASE go vote for Maj Joe if you have not done so already and if you have encourage others that may not have voted to do so!

To vote go to:

http://www.riflescopes.com/contestentries.asp?contest=6

THANKS!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 21:08:16 (ZULU)

Boris and Geoff,

Get one of each and swap out once a month. I have the M82A1 from "99" and expect no more than 1.5 moa from handloads but for it's purpose the 338 doesn't compare any better than comparing the accuracy of the 338 to the .50. Sort of like, don't take a knife to a gunfight, thing.

Been busy with Reserve Deputy class work. Made it thru the Pre-basic class and start PT on Thursday. Handgun safety is next week and then 16 weeks of Academy. At 50 years old, maybe someone should slap me. I have to admit, it's challenging and fun. Gotta study.....

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 22:05:13 (ZULU)

Bravo: That 'MAGPUL' company is in Boulder, just a few miles from me. Go figure. A firearms supply company in the Kalifornia transplant town of Boulder, CO. Trijicon is in Wixom, MI, close to my old stomping grounds. They might get the tritium tubes from Ann Arbor. There is (was) a lot of laser fusion research going on there at one time.

I've found that using the RCBS 10-10 can be a little (extremely small error) off when loading small charges (in my case, ~27 grains). I've also found that by calibrating the scale to the approximate load I'm throwing, the minor error is eliminated. I picked up RCBS scale weights, RCBS Deluxe Scale Check Weights 510.5 Grains from Midway, product #163721. It only takes a few minutes, and gets you where you need to be. Please note, the error is probably insignificant for nearly all loads, but satisfies my need for throwing the 'perfect' load in my test rounds. Regardless, you'll probably always be within +/- 0.1 grains no matter what you do. FWIW, YMMV.

Duman
Wednesday, February 15, 2006, at 23:14:12 (ZULU)

Came across this vid from Google. Very interesting but unfortunately it is in Russian:

Url: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6785336737396986040

or click on my name.

Darren...

Semper Fi

Darren
Castro Valley, CA, USA - Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 00:13:35 (ZULU)

Check from the Czechs;

Great news. The Czech Republic gave the town of Bayou La Batre, Alabama a check for $100,000 today. The money is for restocking of the town library which lost all of it's books, video, audio, and computers due to flooding from Hurricane Katrina.

Just might have to go ahead and get a CZ. I have a little more reason too now.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 03:27:44 (ZULU)

Something occurred to me later, which dates back to my single econ course (BLECH!). Needs can be classified as real or percieved. As in "I've got a 45 caliber hole in the sidewall of my tire, so I need to replace that tire", versus "I bet if I bought THOSE tires, they couldn't ever have a 45 caliber hole in the sidewall". Percieved needs, well, they can be the area of creative marketing. It's up to the consumer to figure what's real, and what's marketing hype.

How do we determine, besides the wisdom Ken has freely handed out, if there's any benefit to the piston uppers beyond cannage? You guys know my stat answer of "a side by side torture test for those puppies", but then one could bring up the natural question of "how often do you think your stick will see such nasty treatment in the real world?". Since the net effect is "once it's good enough, it's good enough!" I dunno. I do know that the LMT I was so impressed with wasn't piston driven.

Duman, yeah, and Alan is a smart puppy. I believe I've recounted the Crest Test stuff. That was him, and his G3. As for the military taking up another caliber, I highly doubt that, regardless of much of anything. Maybe it's just that I'm a pessimist. On the balance weights, I'm lucky I guess. Every 6 months or so, we cycle out NIST tracable 500mg (7.7 grains) calibration masses. They cycle into my truck. Putting those in multiples will get me a good zero close to just about anything.

Sir Wes, I think I'm good. Between Duman and I, we've even got Moe and the kittywhacker beat by more than a few years. And yes, it DOES work that way. If it didn't we wouldn't be able to trade in a 43 year old wife for two 21 year old girlfriends, and turn in the remaining year for a side of nitroglycerine pills and a portable automated defib.

I also failed to mention that CRKT seems to be making a knife they call the M60, that coincidentally looks to be virtually identical in design (although using newer materials) as the one I came up with and had made in the late '80's (maybe '90 or so by the time it was fielded) as a result of the learning curve traveled in a matched pair of survival courses. If theirs is like mine, it's hell for stout, extremely useful for everything, and a touch too heavy. I doubt theirs comes blooded though.

Geoff, good to see you posting again. I think you hit a lot straight on, but I gotta laugh at the butthole stock comment! HA! Just for the record, I'm with you on the largebore versus midbore question. Same reason. I think for mil, there's a better answer, for folks like us though.......

Ken, sorry I missed you there. Really. Man, just too fast and too furious. I'm with you Mike, we gotta do a get together. The only problem might be that I may not be able to make it next year. I've decided to put forth all effort in escaping this state ASAP. Well, hopefully in the summer, so I don't have to pull Bub out of school. Seems someone is screwing with my boy, and I'm not sure I've got enough tonnage in bricks to drop on people. Tolerate that crap? NEVER!

Bravo
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 05:01:55 (ZULU)

"Undude" Mike, yeah, didn't mean to leave you out. It was good meeting you. We really do need to get together with the other SC folks or something at the next SHOT.

Other Mike, OK, now at least I know what you look like. Didn't mean to give you the brush off vacant stare, I was just trying to figure out if you were somebody I'd met before and couldn't recall their name or face. I've never forgot anyone before and I'm too young for CRS to set in.

Boris, yeah, that's the trouble being me, secret admirers. Women want me and men want to be me, life is so hard. Yeah right.

Bravo, there were two 5.56 shorties there at the L-W shoot we shot the crap out of. One choked and wouldn't run right on F-A and the other stopped being accurate after about +/- 1000rds. I mean can't even hit a Larue at 100m accurate. Had an ACOG on it, so it wasn't me or the SF guy also pulling the trigger. Might have had something to do with the beta mag dumps earlier in the shoot blowing the rifling out of it or something. I must say I was impressed, that was one of the few times I've seen Beta mags not choke.

Which LMT are you looking at? I had an MRP two years ago and had to leave it in Iraq. The rifle worked OK, but the enhanced bolt(2 spring extractor) was a POS. Would leave double feeds sitting in the gun about every other shot.

I'm pretty sure we've been over the 50cal vs 338 LM thing. The 338 lapua fits in human sized rifles, the 50cal doesn't. There's a newish 338 Lap short mag coming out(Cripple creek and Rock barrels both had them on display) designed around the 300SMK. Shorter case, but really similar OAL. About 8-10 gns less powder and the projo isn't sticking way down in the powder space. Also the bearing surface of the bullet doesn't extend down past the neck. Claims to be a dead heat between it and the 338 Lapua loaded mag length with the 300SMK in similar barrels. I know Dakota was making brass and IIRC there was one other also. There was a Rem 700 in an AI chassis on display at the Leitner-Wise booth that had a Jet can on it. Uses 338 lap mags, and a M16 style extractor. If anything, it'd be easier to suppress due to lower muzzle pressure and a bit less punch on the shoulder. Call Mike Brown at Jet and he can tell you about it. Might be an excuse to buy another custom stick with can this time. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 06:01:28 (ZULU)

The knife market has changed a bunch since I quit buying them. The selection is better so I sold or gave away most of mine then used the $$ to buy better ones.

More than likely good enough and cheap, cheap:

http://www.camillusknives.com/1mainframe.htm?bkt/index.shtml~main

Good and cheap:

http://www.rangerknives.com/

Better and still pretty cheap. Check out the ratweiler:

http://www.swampratknives.com/knives.html

Surprisingly good and not cheap at all, at all, at all:

http://www.bussecompanystore.com/knives.htm

This guy does knife reviews by testing so hard that most knives are destroyed. Lots of people hate him, but, if a knife survives him, it'll survive anything you're likely to throw at it:

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/reviews.html

For you biggest-fastest-meanest types, check this out. ABS master knifesmiths are making knives that they take to cutting competitions wherein they do insane stunts that are hard to credit.

http://cuttingcompetition.com/

Here's Camillus' version of the first winner of one of these lunatic competitions. No home should be without a knife that will go through a 2X4 in under two seconds and cut through six full water bottles in one swipe without knocking them over:

http://www.agrussell.com/knives/production/a_through_d/camillus/camillus_jim_crowell_.html

CDC'
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 06:28:31 (ZULU)

Bravo, you weren't supposed to give away my relative age! I was hoping to keep my tender, young (ahem ....) age a secret. Now I'm going to have to buy some Grecian Formula.

Ken: "...that was one of the few times I've seen Beta mags not choke." I've been looking at Beta-C's for awhile. Are they a 'no-go' in your book?

CDC': Thanks for the knife links. Benchmade is using a new steel, S30V, which is from a steel company in New York. It's a custom blend, with improved wear, toughness, and good hardness. The company is 'Crucible' at:

http://www.crucibleservice.com/

Metallurgy is synonymous with alchemy, but with slightly better models.

Duman
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 16:54:47 (ZULU)

Duman, concur on the metallurgy thing; Bravo and exchanged emails on the topic earlier today...sometimes I think some of the off-line discussions ought to be printed here...but, to the point: It is alchemy in my mind!

Calvin: I am bouncing trying to return greetings sir! So, here it is...I hope no one minds the bandwidth (ref AR30/50):

>>>I am thinking these things "look" cheap, but perform brilliantly.

That's the word I've been hearing, and you back it up. I'll link over to Bobby's site and give your review a read tomorrow (it is late here).

Thanks for the votes! Maybe we can kick-start a rifle-raffle with a big donation! We'll put it to the SC board; maybe Brian Sain could use the winnings too. It'll be a group-think thing, like the voting has been.

Now, Geoff and I are arguing about caliber. I like the 338 Lap for reaching out to distances I think are the limits of shoulder fired weapons in the first place; he likes the hitting of the big-5-0. There is something there--the anti material role goes to the .50 hands-down.

I just ain't convinced I need to shoot engine blocks in my world. Here, well, I got the Ma deuce on top for things my M4 cannot handle...so maybe I just don't see the need due to my current environment...

But 50s do have a neat little cult following complete with matches and camaraderie...hmmm. There's something to that, too, I suppose.<<<

Crimney! What's the digital age coming to when ya gotta post an email??? My server sux eggs.

Hey now: I might get sent to the Stan...for a few months. A change of scenery always does one good.

Boris
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 18:20:47 (ZULU)

Ken, thanks for the info on the L-W! Sounds like it needs an exterminator for the few bugs left, and I'm NOT that guy. The LMT I was so impressed by was their monolithic upper. Nifty idea, although I could see it was CNC time intensive. Now you're spooking me on their carrier!

Knife country: when I took my design to the guy who made it, I told him I wanted it built from 1/4". He laughed and asked why. At the end of that discussion, I was hanging on a 2' cheater, with about 1" of knife tip holding up my body weight. I was bouncing my weight, in response to repeated statements like "go ahead and break it" and chuckles. We wound up going with 3/16", which was slightly thicker than what I was hanging from. Not too sure how it would compare with other stuff available, but I know it pierced oil drums easily, got hammered through a couple bucks worth of quarters, chopped through a 2X4, and still shaved. It's a good design, just heavy. His comment, when done, was that it'd do everything I wanted, but I'd be better off having a native bearer carry it for me. If it goes dull, I'll spend a week sharpening it in off time.

Duman, no thanks necessary. Consider it retribution for messing with me while I was chatting up the Otis gal ;-) You know what's cheaper than Grecian formula? At the barber, just say "no guard on the sides and back". As the temples go grey higher, that turns to a high and tight ;-)

Alchemy country: take this for what it's worth, from someone who used to turn lead to gold 5 days a week. Metalurgy is much, much weirder than alchemy.

Patron Joe is head-strong on donating his soon-to-be winnings to the raffle. I'm good with that. I believe that the raffle should be done a touch differently this time though, with two names written on all tickets, for the first AND second place winners. Wouldn't that be coincidental if Patron Joe was written on one side of all of 'em? Sorry Patron, just gotta be me.

Bravo
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 19:04:32 (ZULU)

Bravo, the gas piston system runs right, it's other items that cause problems. The shorties were Noveske barreled and chambered and perhaps it needs to be a little different IOT run with the piston, since his impingement guns run fine in 10.5". I'd gladly trade accuracy for reliability in the 16 series weapons, since even at reduced levels of accuracy they're still plenty accurate for the work we ask them to do. The 6.8's ran flawless and the 14.5 and longer guns ran great as well. The XM110 proto ran great until the key came undone due to screws backing out. As I said, staking or red loctite would solve that, and I believe they're changing the dovetail so that the allen screws only provide lateral support, the dovetail does the work.

The MRP is a nifty platform, the one I had ran fine after I put a GI bolt in it. I'm still pissed I left it in Iraq, hopefully the TC guys I left it with are using it to hammer savages. At least my money would be going towards a good cause.

Yeah, there's a price for being on the bleeding edge:) Didn't you play that game with your M14 critter? S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 21:52:17 (ZULU)

Has anyone heard from the catman?

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 21:55:34 (ZULU)

Lito, "Near" Safe arrival,Today!

Regards,

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 22:57:14 (ZULU)

Bravo: This links to the guy who tests most knives to destruction:

"As further even more extreme work, a 28 oz framing hammer was used to cut the hinges off A SUV with the Howing Rat and a Agent from Dozier. The first impacts on the Agent were light as the feedback to the grip was high. The Agent cracked immediately and sharded into pieces. No progress was made in the cutting. The Howling Rat went through the first hinge easily, no edge damage, just dulling."

I'm impressed.

"The Howling Rat was also pounded into a tree (22 oz framing hammer) two inches from the tip, and it was stood on (~190 lbs). It was difficult to apply full bodyweight as the knife bent slightly so a limb was used for stability. To eliminate this factor the knife was pounded into the tree higher up and then hung from, again two inches from the tip. This failed to produce a significant flex."

There's more. Not too damned bad for a $88 knife. There's a whole cult surrounding Swamp Rat knives that doesn't appeal to me, but I ordered a couple of the blades. Busses are supposed to be even better but the $$$!!!

CDC'
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 23:08:51 (ZULU)

Ken, thanks for the heads-up! So you'd recommend the MRP, with the change of bolt? I agree with you completely on the accuracy versus reliability trade. If I need accuracy "out there", I'm going to be going for a larger diameter bullet anyway. It's not a matter of what the 223 cal can do or can't, I think of it as the 308 is capable of turning cover into concealment in an efficient and aestetically pleasing manner. What did you think of that "upgraded" bolt carrier?

On the '25, yeah, the bleeding edge. But I'm just silly enough that I'm not done playing that game yet. Lou (LRB) still has me at the fore-front of the waiting list for the new and redesigned M25 receivers. His were the ones with the integral rails as part of the receiver forging. Except the mag well broaching step didn't leave enough material for the rear rail pad. Instead, they've gone to a system where there's essentially scope rail attachments where risers of different height can be added. Or, a single piece, that Marty is working with him to put out. The bleeding edge. A GI contour GOOD barrel, VERY light stock (I'm thinking GI with a cheekpiece), and just standard accurizing. Shouldn't be the pig my '25 is...... but it probably won't be nearly as accurate either.

JK, yes, I talked with the catman just earlier today. I told him what a fool he was, because I just got an e-mail from the late S.J. Kittywhacker's lawyer saying that since other family members didn't accept the long-lost relatives estate, I'm next in line to get it. And here I didn't even know I was a kittywhacker!

In all honesty guys, this is no joke. Those of youse that are inclined to do so, pray for that guy, and his kiddo. Sometimes things go hard and we don't know why (I.E. Job). He needs it.

CDC, yeah, OK. Now I'm impressed. So you think it's better than the Glock field knife, eh? HA!

Bravo
Thursday, February 16, 2006, at 23:17:54 (ZULU)

I'm not sure what changes they made to the carrier itself, I only had a different bolt. It had sand cuts, dual spring lobster tail extractor and some other minor differences. I ran it in a GI M16 carrier, but it no workie, so it got subbed for the GI bolt. Are you talking about that one with the minor diameters and the nickel/nitride(?) finish? I don't have any experience with that one. I do know the GI carrier worked fine in conjunction with the USGI lower firecontrol pieces. In spite of all the nifty stuff I try out, I'm not a fan of things which don't offer me any real advantage. The USG bolt and carrier worked for me, why change?? I "hear" all the nifty parts make FA fire work better, but I don't have much use for FA in any weapon that isn't belt fed. Can can get more hits faster using semi except at smell 'em distance and then I'm looking at cranial contact shot/muzzle jab type stuff. Having to clear your own hides results in lots of bleed over from the door kicker skill set, but I still don't see the need for FA in a rifle/carbine. I have a M249 for suppression, and the Mk 46 would save weight. S/F.....Ken M

here's some of the toys I'm talking about

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=17580&an=0&page=0#17580

Ken M
Friday, February 17, 2006, at 00:21:57 (ZULU)

Gents,

Back home to put my .02 worth into the pot...

.338 Lapua vs. .50 cal M2 country: Mind you, I have limited experience with both, but DO own a .338 Lapua.

The .50 cal M2 is a damn fine round. For MG's. From what I've seen it is to damn heavy and obnoxious to be considered a sniper round. Except in a limited use/entrenched defender role. If you need to reach out 1,600 yards there are better options, IMHO. Consider close air, arty, mortars, missiles, etc.

The .338 Lapua is man packable, accurate, does all the .50 can, in most cases. Specialty ammo is now becoming available enhancing it's abilities. Is it an M2? No, but it does all that needs doing. This is like a .308 vs .300 WM argument. Fun, but pointless.

Compadre, Whit Engle, has a AR-30 and loves it. He's mated it with the Horus Vision system. First round downrange was a throat his on a La Rue reactive target at 950 yards. Not shabby for factory come-ups! Price is right, too.

Knife Country: For some infernal reason folks think I'm a knife guy. I'm not. The are a tool. There are some nifty specialty knives in my collection, but I could be happy with the old Ka-Bar for general purpose use. As a daily carry blade I retired my old Spyderco Delica and upgunned to a Emerson Commander. That is an impressive folder, my friends. It ought to be for the cost.

Passed on an original Sykes-Fairborn a couple years back. STILL kicking myself in the ass over that one! Do have my eye on a Randall #1 that is available...who knows.

Bravo, your two 20 year old scenario sounds good. Mentioned it to the wife. She smiled, knowingly, and said "you're not wired for 220 any more, dear".

Geoff, I've never had a failire in a BHP. Extractors do wear and suspect replacing and adding a extra strength extractor spring will do the job. Interstingly, the CZ-75 family suffers from the same problem. From the factory. Replacing the standard extractor spring with a Wolff spring does the trick. Check out the CZ Forum. A wealth of information there about CZ's. Love mine.

Can't/Won't get excited about the 6.8 Rem of 6.5 Grendel. Goes in the "nothing new under the sun" category. Again, pointless debates. If we had adopted the Brit .280 round pre-308 we would have the ballistics we are looking for.

M70's. Glad I have mine, as Winchester has gone the way of the DODO. Still think Winchester will resurface in a more gun friendly state. In the meantime the Montana M1999 will suffice. Compadre Steve Nelson spec'd one and said it was good. Some minor dishing around the mount holes, but that's it. Good news is that it takes Badger Mounts designed for the Winchester M70 Short Action. As I noted before, the Montana short action has a magazine length of 3.25". It will allow you to seat out your .308's and/or take a 6.5 X .284 with ease. JOHN K. you may want to take note of that. Minor rework of the extractor claw and you're home free.

S&W M&P: Ho-Hum. The did it again. Same mistakes as with the Sigma and supposedly doesn't feel as good. Time will tell. I'm betting our next service sidearm will be a Glock 21 in .45 ACP, but with a single column magazine and a added manual safety. That I could go for. Of course, I would be happy with an issue of orginal spec 1911A1's, too!

One thing about getting older. You get to see folks making the same mistakes. Over, and over, and over, and over.

UN Country: CDC, indeed we are a soveriegn nation. However, the previous administration passed over 300 presidential decrees, most having to do with us abiding by the UN rules. Bush could have rescinded those in his first 90 days in office. Didn't do so...you think these folks aren't in the same camp? Those decrees are now law. We can pontificate on the power of the UN to do this, take the "cold dead fingers" approach, or wait for the blue helmeted storm troopers. The end result is there WILL be a confrontation at some time or another.

Canada has been unsuccessful in disarmning it's populace and is now considering changing it's laws, as few are following them anyway. I doubt the UN will fair any better in our country.

Loopie vs Premier: Think I've bought my last Loopie. To bad. They are only 50 miles up the road. Based on what I'm hearing from you folks, that is. Would like to see an official statement from Premier and Leupold laying the issue to rest.

John K. The 6.5 x .284 will fit in a short Rem 700 action, but you'll give up some case capacity. Same issue as the parent case, the .284 Winchester. A long action will work. Mine does very well. A perfect combination would be a medium length action. The Mex Mauser is perfect for these, but not a great choice for a tactical rifle. I'd try the Montana Short action with the 3.25" magazine box. See my previous comment above on this.

Muslim Cartoon's: PULLEEZ! Why are we even giving these bastards the time of day. Do you really think they are going to respond to "sensitivity training".

SHOT Show: You folk are being patently unfair about all this. Obviously I need to make the next one just to see what all the commotion is about.

'Lito, when do we get the "crusty old fart" nom de plume? Figured I'd ask you...;-)

All for now. It's good to be back.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, February 17, 2006, at 03:17:08 (ZULU)

For you Rosterfarians that have been following the soap opera.

A bad day in my world...

Went to a school meeting today, held cuz Ruggus Rattus is failing everything (seven "F"s), and refuses to do school work.

Now that the "ex" has full custody, she doesn't want him (and never has) and is talking about putting him in a "School for troubled children", or a "protective educational environment"... what us old guys usta call "Reform school".

But I did get to someone in the state's "External Affiars Division" of the court system, and she said my name sounded familiar, and she's gonna try to set up a meeting with a head of a state court agency about the "Church Lady's" perjury. If I can get this guy to listen, and realize that he has a dirty employee, and that the credibility of all 1,200 of his people is at stake, he could break this thing and turn it around. If I can break the Church Lady, I got it 75% turned around, I get a new trial, and Ruggus Rattus gets a new lawyer and new Gardian (and I don't have to pay for them)...

... if I can get the Church Lady to cop out on the rest of them, I'm in high clover and I win.

But Mary says I need to keep my Easter Bunny ears tucked in, 'til it really happens - she's seen me get let down too many times over this thing.

There are days when the ocean looks so big, and my boat, it looks so small.

Joisey...

Kewl!

Jon-K...

Yup, I'm here - just up to my ass in alligators ;)))

Sir Wesley...

You are getting as bad as Bravo - you need a nappie after that one ;))

Bravo called me today and we killed about 45 minutes on the horn, 'til I realized it was on my prime time cell phone minutes :((

I get to talk for free on the weekends, but during the week, it's about eleventy bucks a second :((

But he cracks me up, so it's worth it every time - SHOT SHOW next year fur-sure fur-sure.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, February 17, 2006, at 03:54:06 (ZULU)

'Lito - prayin' for a miracle here.

Wes and Ken......Joe and I have two different viewpoints. He is .mil, therefore the libtard politocos are already ascared of him. And he has access to the aforementioned indirect fire and air support.

I am a civvy, so I do not. However, in keeping with the spirit of the 2nd Amendment, I figure the more capable I am, the better. I'm not a fringe lunatic or anything, actually I am very reasonable and tend to come down on the "law of the land" side of most arguments pertaining to the direction America is headed.

That said, to me it's about capability. The .308 Salvage will do whatever you need it to out to 800-1000. If it ever came to it, I am not going to worry about getting sued because I shot an 1100 yard target with a .50. Overkill? Maybe a little. But the .50 also has the aforementioned anti-materiel capability. And finally, the politicians are completely wild over them. Some of them are very, very afraid. I figure if it scares them that bad, it's my duty to have it and know how to use it. Kind of doing my part to keep the real spirit of the 2nd Amendment alive, since it's not really about duck (or deer) hunting. I think Bravo would agree...;-)

And don't forget, when they ban them, it's a much better investment than the Lapdog.

Wes, the HP is an Argentine. The factory extractor slot isn't milled deep enough for the extractor to move inward in the slot and put any tension on the case rim at all. So I took a little material off the inside face of the extractor (always muck up the cheapest part!). Once I got it to where I thought it was sufficient, I tested it again. Dumped three mags and no failures. Fired a fourth to check the group and they all went into one ragged hole 6" lower than where it previously hit. 'Lito mentioned extractor tension not really being a factor with the HiPower design, I figure that the very loose extractor was the problem and it needs to just touch the rim and not actually hold it. I have a C&S extractor (needs fitting in more ways than one) and I will set it up like that and try it again.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, February 17, 2006, at 04:36:28 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Wow. From the war stories, I may have to check out the SHOT show someday.

Knife country: I carried a Al Mar SERE 6 on my web gear for years. I went in to B and B Pawn on Bragg Boulevard to buy a Randall Knife and walked out with the Al Mar instead. Not taking anything away from Randall's, but I happened to like the Al Mar a little better just then and it was (then) less money. Beautiful knife, nice Micarta handle, holds a hair cutting edge, very tough and I have used and abused it, although I have never tried to cut thru the hinges on a SUV. I understand that since Al Mar's death the company is not in the same hands and that although they still market SERE knives, I have heard the quality as good.

A number of years ago, one of my nephews enlisted for the Ranger Battalion and I wanted to send him a Randall Knife. When I called and ordered, they told me it would be a two year back order. I told them he had just gotten out of RIP and was going to 3/75th. He had it in his hands less than a month later.

Pat 2
Friday, February 17, 2006, at 05:02:26 (ZULU)

Wes,

thanks for the info,I don't know what I will do with that action.

Catman,

I just put my dad's winne together,the 308 model II stealth.I used the nightforce one piece tapered base and rings,hope it shoots good.Do you know if winchester beds thier actions from the factory?Its has some bedding done to it just thought I would ask.

Jon Kujawa
Friday, February 17, 2006, at 18:01:39 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

The Winchesters are bedded at the factory - not perfect, but damn good.

It's not a true epoxy/glass, but a thermal compound that is very clever.

They heat it, and squish it in, drop the action in with release (gun oil), and move it on down the line - poofie, a bedded riffle on the production line. It was a very good idea.

If you are an OCD, you can re-bed them in "Steel-bed" or marine-tex, but that will just be for saatisfaction - the 70's shoot good out of the box.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, February 17, 2006, at 18:44:53 (ZULU)

Wes.. "John K. The 6.5 x .284 will fit in a short Rem 700 action, but you'll give up some case capacity. Same issue as the parent case, the .284 Winchester. A long action will work. Mine does very well. A perfect combination would be a medium length action. The Mex Mauser is perfect for these, but not a great choice for a tactical rifle. I'd try the Montana Short action with the 3.25" magazine box. See my previous comment above on this."

you should take a look at these hansen actions i'm busy building rifles on. they are basicaly a Rem 700 clone, but have absolutely everything that you would do to sort out a remington, such as , sako extractor, side mounted bolt stop, custom trigger, custom bottom metal, 3 position bolt mounted safety, fat recoil lug and the things are true and tight. and they come in 3 actions lengths, a long, same length as the rem 700 LA, a short same as the Rem 700 SA and an intermediate, especialy built for rounds like the 300wsm, 6.5x284, 6.5x55 etc. It is basicaly achieved by having the bolt come a little further back on cycling, having the magazine cut out longer and slight differences to the rear bridge area of the action. It comes with a custom extended bottom metal to cope with the extra length of the rounds, the stock screws are the same distance apart as the remington SA and the action is basicaly the same length as the remington SA so it will fit the stocks, but you have to adjust the inmletting for the bottom metal, or have mcmillan inlet it already for this action as they do have the specs on file.

The actions are excellent.

and...

"Can't/Won't get excited about the 6.8 Rem of 6.5 Grendel. Goes in the "nothing new under the sun" category. Again, pointless debates. If we had adopted the Brit .280 round pre-308 we would have the ballistics we are looking for." ... thats the 1st time i ever heared an American say that !! he he ha ha..

I'm thinking about making the shot show next year too. just to busy this year. Got the IWA in a couple of weeks though.

Spent all day at Leica the other day, some interesting stuff coming out of there in the next 12 to 36 months.

Joe S where the hell you got too? hardly heraed anything of you since the last IWA, did we up set you mate?? or are you still recovering.

anybody know the OAL of the Accuracy Int 338 sniper rifle?

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, February 17, 2006, at 19:15:26 (ZULU)

Pseudo Product Review,

I picked up a SureFire E1L flashlight, single lithium-ion battery, single LED light, press and hold for temporary on, click for full-time on/off. Twist for lockout to prevent accidental turn-on battery bleed. Fits in the palm of my hand, or pocket, and has a clip to attach to belt/hat/other. Next to my 3-D cell Maglite, the spot size and intensity are comparable at various distances (in the house). Without a photometer, I couldn't tell you how many photons each one was tossing. The LED throws off a 'white' light, and the MagLite is more yellow. The E1L is more focused beam, slightly square in shape, and has less dispersion than the MagLite. E1L peak lumens rated at 25 for 1-hour, then reduced output for 3-hours. I didn't realize how bright 25-lumens really is. Wow! Construction is rugged, could probably drive a car over this thing (though I'll leave that to someone else to try - Bravo?). Appears to be water resistant, but haven't tried that yet. Pretty high cool factor. Better be, MSRP is $99.

I can see more SureFire's in my future. Time and Money .....

Duman

Duman
Friday, February 17, 2006, at 21:43:20 (ZULU)

Whewww lads ... SHOT SHOW kicked my ass.

Lots of the guys stopped by and hugged our necks and shook our hands. Tears in some cases ...

I did not have one minute to myself the entire time.

Great to see and finally meet some of you.

We made 20 grand.

brian k .sain
Friday, February 17, 2006, at 22:25:16 (ZULU)

>>>Sir Wes, I think I'm good. Between Duman and I, we've even got Moe and the kittywhacker beat by more than a few years.<<<

Now, now, youngster! If you and Duman make it to Orlando next year I'm sure Catman and I will be more than happy (and capable) to supervise your sillyness. Just don't fuck with my assault walker!

BTW, Sir Wes, you mentioned Whit Engle. Do you or anyone know why he's stopped selling his regular 5.56 subsonic ammo? He still has the frangible stuff listed but the Ultra Stealth 5.56 is gone from the menu. Maybe he's getting ready to introduce some 5.56 SS that actually cycles an M16/AR15?

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 00:47:22 (ZULU)

I stopped by the Shot Show booth on Friday looking for "INSAIN" and got my support coin. The coins are fantastic

I asked where Sain was? I was told he was out "communicating"

A rumor I picked at the booth was that Sain was such a “Silver tongue devil he could talk people out of their underwear, then they would go wash it and bring it back to him folded and pressed.”

I then went the Aimpoint booth as another rumor had him spending time there. I assumed he had not been there yet, The girls still had their underwear.

Dam Rumors :-)))))

Maybe next year!

bomac
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 01:52:13 (ZULU)

I'm getting damned tired of this 'conspiracy theory' of Cheney covering up the shooting of a lawyer. Some of these SOBs are equating it to Kennedy's Chappequiddick. Has the average journalist's IQ really dropped below room temperature?

Duman
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 02:08:14 (ZULU)

bomac,

Those rumors were initiated by Bravo, and, though there was no further corroboration, there were also no signs of denial from the 'Dances With Other's Underwear' himself.

Bravo, however, was seen to frequent the Aimpoint booth himself, while secretly harboring the hots for the 'Otis' lady. Although she was getting quite nervous, the Otis lady was kind enough not to file any stalking charges against aforesaid individual.

I shall now take cover ...... ;8-p

Duman

Duman
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 02:15:08 (ZULU)

Is anyone else as cold as we are?We're at about -24.I hate cold weather.

Jon Kujawa
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 03:22:08 (ZULU)

Hey guys I want to tell you all how much this site and all of you have helped me become a better marksman It has also given me a better apparition for snipers and their jobs. You guys out there putting your lives on the line deserve a lot more respect then what you get these days.

I have looked all over this website and still cant find any where it says how good of a shot a sniper should be in all the different shooting positions.

what I want to know is how good can an expert sniper shoot from sitting, standing, kneeling, and prone?

along with this how long should it take once you spot your target till you engage and fire on it?

Suppose I am walking along and something catches my eye I look through the binos and decide that it is a worth wile target, Lets say that the distance to the target was 500 yards

now how long should it take for me to range my target check the wind correct for bullet drop and wind drift get in a steady position and fire the shot?

The reason I am wondering all of this is because I would like to one day compete in some of the sniper competitions. I want to set realistic goals for myself but also know what the best men are capable of.

Thanks again for your continued help!

Jeremy

jeremy
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 06:01:09 (ZULU)

JK: According to household-6, the temps at the farm are -32 with wind chill...and i thought it was a touch cool last night for shorts here...heheheheheh.

Surefires: I should write something when i get a minute on the two i have. Battery munchers, and the tactical is too heavy...but there's more to say good. But right now i have an NCO standing over my shoulder who is itching to go scrounging for a unit in Afghansistan...priorities.

Boris
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 06:58:11 (ZULU)

What part of the country are you in? I've got 22 below,house is making all sort of creaks and groans. I'm going to build a fire up in the shop and squeeze a few off today though just to see how the shoot. Talk about cold bore shot?

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 11:18:14 (ZULU)

Duman, The average Journalists are Dolts!

Yesterday and again today they are reporting that Gregory Boyington

was the top USMC Fighter Ace in WW2.

Credited with 28 kills.

Me thinks it was Joe Foss that had 28 kills to Boyingtons 22.

Hey that was over 60 years ago and most of the talking heads that

report were still in Heaven.

So shurly they must be qualified to make the news as they perceive

it Today ! LOL

Research,Research & Resarch! Nah just put on the cone shaped hat

with stars and Half Moons, a Blue cape and print away !

News forcasting ??

Regards,

Skeptical Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 12:01:18 (ZULU)

Jeremy,

Wow...pretty good questions, really. First glance someone might think otherwise....but youz tend to forget those early days of trying too hard.

First, time: As long as it takes! Through practice comes smooth. And only smooth is fast. Fast is reckless by itself, and repetitive drill smooths out the edges. Includes calculations; some here can do it by eyeball to a very accurate guess. I sometimes can, especially on "even ranges." The mils and targets have a correlation.

Positions: I can shoot damn good enough sitting, kneeling and prone (or any supported way imaginable). But off-hand? Fugget about it! But, maybe that will change now that I recovered some muscle mass I allowed to turn to fat a few years ago...we shall see. There are "principles" to positions--and paying a reputable School for instruction is worth every penny (Badlands comes to mind). Being told what you are doing wrong early enough takes years off the learning curve. Bad habits once set are hard to break. And at times, shooting skills can be darn counter-intuitive. Get yourself some advice, then make assuming positions a drill you do til ya wanna puke at first.

Some things mentioned here, and that I use with my kids: Washer drills and snap caps for trigger control. It is a good rainy range day drill...made a magnet-little sillouhette target for the muzzle too---had the boy talk it into what he thought was a good sight picture, and I was able to ee what he saw through the sights. I could note the slight changes as he moved back and forth along the comb too. Shooting is really doing everything the same repeatedly.

0.02 cents...there is so much more you're sure to hear...but take it with a grain of salt--I haven't been a sniper per se in 15 plus years! Heheh---and to be fair, i was really just a highly trained spotter (my partner could edge me without much effort).

Ya know, I don't get too far wondering where all the time goes...seems like i have memories just waiting to be remembered! It has been a very, very busy 15 odd years!

boris
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 12:03:42 (ZULU)

Jeremy: On wind calls; ya never figure that out. But there are a few mortals who seem to be luckier than the rest at shooting thru small gaps in the breeze!

Boris
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 12:08:02 (ZULU)

Mornin' Hawgs,

I must be havin a heat wave down here in Mizzery. My thermometer says 0! Wood stove feels good. Are any of you guys into Civil War arms? Gent dropped off what seems to be an 1863 Spencer carbine yesterday and I need some expertise. Hit me offline if you like.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The frigid Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 12:50:48 (ZULU)

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!!

The damn range road is closed again. This is getting into the suck mode with the people that own the land where our club's range is. A little bit of rain and their precious mud road gets a little muddier and they close it. Hell, we can only shoot there Friday-Sunday anyway and it has been closed for the last 3 friggin weekends. Getting ready to join another club but the dues are a major ass kicker at $275 a year vs. $40 a year at the other range. But, if the other range is closed it don't make any difference anyway.

Shit, I wish I was independently wealthy and I'd buy the land and build my own friggin range. How about a indoor 1200 yard range for starters???????? Would have local college coeds to police brass and give massages for the sore shoulders. Would have fans to provide various wind conditions as well as an HVAC system that would take it down to -20 and up to 120 degrees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could even have a snow and rain system and a mud pit for really slimmy shooting.

Not only that......

Grandson is here and he has an ear infection and bronchitis. Didn't sleep a wink last night and I'm grouchier than normal.

I REALLY need to shoot something.......

I love my life, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 14:29:15 (ZULU)

Speaking of CMH winner Gregory "Pappy" Boyington; if you think journos are silly, click my name for Michelle Malkin's report on the rattle-brained little undergrads at the University of Washington.

“I don’t believe a member of the Marine Corps is an example of the sort of person [the University of Washington] wants to produce,”...UW student senator Jill Edwards.

CDC'
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 14:55:29 (ZULU)

Bolt - I'm told that you could give that grandbaby some warm lemon-verbena or catnip tea ... He'll sleep like a baby... Good for grouchy kids @ night.... Non-narcotic....

Hey MedicJim - give me a sanity check me on that one

On wind call - I think it was Mr. Boucher that said something like guess the high and low value of the wind then dope for the middle and send it....

take care alll.....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 15:51:29 (ZULU)

On wind: jarheadtop.com has a good video. Click my name. Practice making estimates then checking them with a Kestrel. Wind increases in speed as you get farther from the ground. It is faster above smooth surfaces than above trees. It gets complicated.

CDC'
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 16:47:15 (ZULU)

Jeremy: I'm not a sniper, but I spend a fair amount of time around them.

I figure that a good shot ought to be able to repeatedly hit a 3 MOA target from sitting or kneeling, i.e., a 12 inch target at 400 yards.

If you get to 2 MOA, that'd be excellent. That's getting into championship range.

Standing, well, try not to shoot that way. :D

Lindy
An Undisclosed Secure Location, U.S.A. - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 17:31:52 (ZULU)

Jeremy...

Your question is too vague for a definitive answer. It depends on whether you are shooting on your own or with a spotter, and how good your spotter is - a good spotter is worth his weight in beer.

But some loose estimates - on "E" targets, out to 300yds - 3 to 4 seconds from acquisition.

At 400 to 500, about 5 to 6 sec.

At 600, about 10 to 15 seconds, and at 900/1000, 20 seconds.

These are estimates and OMMV ;), and assumes that you have a rifle that is "greased" right down the center line, and your personal data poo-poo is well tested, and easily read under pressure.

You can easily double those times on "F" ("Dog") targets cuz they are much smaller, but you will very rarely get Dog targets past 500 yds... mostly 100 to 400yds.

If your stick isn't squared away, your cams don't match your ammo, and you have a lot of "K"ompensations to make at every range, you can easily triple those times.

But shooting a sniper match is not about target shooting - it's about a lot of stuff.

Some of the guys here shot together at the last Carlos Hathcock match. It was a 7 day deal under pressure, with the last two days being the final press.

I think Ken Hunter and the UnDude (aka Mike Miller ;) are the only two guys on SC that are still here from the match.

The shooting part of the match was in the afternoon. That morning, we had a two mile long creep with full packs (we ate with full packs), and the creep was a real bitch and included a climb up a 30-40 foot steep cliff of loose dirt.

UnDude fell down the cliff and sprung his ankle - it swole up like a mellon. I fell down about 30 feet and was OK, but the fall hit my rifle scope - the scope was fine, but the mount was moved (and I didn't know it).

That afternoon, the shooting part of the match was against 10 "E" targets (a 20" x 40" torso sized steel plate with a head on it). The targets were all "UKD"s (Un-Known Distance) so you had to range the target yourself (through the scope with mil dots - no lasers), judge the wind, dial in the elevation and shoot. You had 5 minutes to complete the ten targets. If you hit a target with the first shot, you got 10 points, if it took two shoots you got 5 points. If you hit all ten targets you got 10 extra points, so a "possible" was 110 points.

At the shooting stage, there were NO SIGHTERS, you went on the first target cold. I was in the middle of the lineup, so there was a lot of paint missing on the targets. The first target was at about 185yds and should have been dead bang. We were shooting targets like this in the nose a few days before... Ken Hunter was my spotter, and he said I missed by 3 feet left, and one foot down... we had a "few chosen words" and he said "Trust me", so I held three feet right and one foot high, and center punched it. On the second target, in a rusted out jeep, I dialed in 3x1 feet of correction in the scope. There were a bunch of "splats" on the target from other shooters, and I picked out the most center one and told ken, "I'm on the splat in the middle of his chest" and fired. Ken gave me the corrections and I dialed that in.

I had lost 5 points on the first target, and had to rezero my rifle in the beginning of the match, but I was feeling good now... we went to the next, about 420, and I took a head shot and hit him in the head, and from that point on, it was grease all the way. When I got to the last target (affectionaly named by the guys as "Down Town Brown"), I ranged it at about 930yds... the wind was light, but the mirage was heavy. I held center and hit him in the lower left groin.

Two Scandahoovian active duty snipers got 110 (and were DAMN FAST), UnDude shot well, expecially for an ugly guy with 50% replacement parts, and he shot 110 and I think his time was about 2 minutes, I got 105 in under 3 minutes... I think only six or seven of the 45 shooters hit "Down Town Brown" at 930 yds, and many guys missed the 800-ish target, so average scores were between the 60's and 80's.

The point of this (besides nice reminiscing) is twofold... first, if you shoot well at the range and don't have the other skills, it means nothing, you will come in low.

Second, TRUST YOUR SPOTTER!!!!! I owe my score to my spotter, Ken Hunter!!

But don't go on a creep with Ken... if there is ONE THORN BUSH within twenty miles, he will get you hung up in it in record time for sure ;))

As to how "good a shot"... a competent shot should be able to hit grapefruits or clay pigions on a fence at 400 yds all day long from prone w/bipod or over a back pack in good weather. Grapfruits from sitting/kneeling at 300...

Standing for a sniper - nevahappen, that's what "spotters" with M-16s are for (when they aren't carrying the beer ;))

Of course, all of the above is my NSHO (Not so humble opinion), and I'm old and slow - I betcha that Rickster Dude demands better than above from his current active duty sniper students.

Also, consider this - don't spend too much time in "position shooting" with the straight jackets and such... do your shooting in loose clothes from the dirt or hard ground, cuz that's how you will be doing it in a "Practical Field Match (the PC term for sniper matches).

You might want to read this about sniper matches...

http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro.asp

Joisey...

Joe Foss got 26, and Boyington got 22, and was shot down and became a prisoner of the rising sun.

Lindy... THREE MOA??? What girls shooting team are you hanging out with???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 18:01:03 (ZULU)

Gents:

Reading the wind: Jeremy/CDC, it's not an exact science. Think Rick B. summed it up. You need to shoot in it to learn it. Alot of it is guesswork. Look at the conditions, based on experience, mentally average what you see. Dope it, Dial it, Dump it! Much more complicated when the conditions change on the way to the target. Using a Kestrel is a good check, but remember it only shows the conditions where you are...

Jim Owen's web-site is a good place to start. He also has the paperback version "Reading the Wind" that is a good read.

Sniper Accuracy: Jeremy/Boris, there is a need to be competent in all positions and practice them. Perhaps why some of our match shooters generally do well as snipers. I don't clain to be a sniper, but have worked with them. For an average, I'd say sub-moa. Again, it will be more up to the man than the weapon, at that point. I can hold sub MOA, prone, off my pack. That said I don't do well in other positions. Lack of practice and physical condition have a lot to do with that. Just my humble .02 worth based on my own experience and a lot of observation.

Jon K. Minus 24? I thought it was bad at 19 degrees last night! Of course I didn't factor in wind chill...

Needless to say I'm not looking forward to wading our small stream out back. Have a minor log jam going and want to remove it before it becomes a big log jam!

Moe, have posed your question on sub-sonic 5.56 to Whit. Am awaiting his answer. I can tell you he is VERY busy developing new technology for use. I'll post his answer here.

Last, I promised to post my brother in laws .300 WSM load here. It's a Winchester case, Federal 210M primer, 66.0 grains of Ramshot "Big Game", and a 168 gr. Barnes Triple Shock bullet. No OAL was given. Chrono'd at 3,025 FPS. You hunters might want to take note. This out of a Model 70 Featherweight 22" barrel.

Bolt-san, you may want to add about a 1/4 oz. of Jack Daniels to the formula. Quiets them little rascals right down!

All for now. Time to go wading.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 18:07:15 (ZULU)

Catman, I remember that match well.

It was a great week. Cemented friendships forever. My favorite part of this is where we were all crawling around like ants to stalk on the bad guys. You looked around and walked hunched over to a bunch of trees and bushes and took shots almost standing. No one watching ever found you. Now the rest of us ants got our asses busted on that one. It was no fun doing that stress course with the swollen ankle. I also remember Bruce Robinson yelling at me while I was shooting the stress course tower (Hard for Bruce but was in role). I just looked at him and said If you dont shut up I will throw you off here before I finish shooting. LOL I miss him.

I remember on the stalk cutting into a rose bush and no one being able to see me until the second shot when the side blast from the muzzle break (Dont use them on medium sniper rifles anymore) moved a bush three feet to my right and cost me a few point. Old Rick still could not see me but he sure as heck knew where to concentrate fire.

That was as good a match as I have ever shot. You, Ken and the rest were great guys to spend a week with. We shot agsint some of the best in the world and not one of us embarrassed ourself, except on the slag hill from hell where a bunch fell.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 18:53:07 (ZULU)

Hey guys, I need to know the Over All Length, from butt to end of muzzle brake, of a factory Accuracy International 338 Lapua Mag. ASAP Can anyone help me out here? TIA.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 20:13:08 (ZULU)

Hmmm.

I was at the last CH match at Storm Mountain, and I remember the two Swedish snipers with the AI rifles and funny looking wookie suits. I don't remember Lito or Undude. Kevin and Andy Mussack were at the match I attended... same one?

medicjim
Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 20:33:57 (ZULU)

Different one - I think the one before, so it might not be the last one, but the year before.

We had the damn Swedish snipers... they were good :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 20:39:36 (ZULU)

Well back from the show and my old body is trying to recove from teh lag, add a newly formed sty in my left upper eye lid and I love it. Spent most of my time at the show chasing down info at the many booths and did not really get a chnace to see everyone. Spent most of my free time lagged out form thinking it was 10 at night when it was actually only 7 pm. Cripes I hate getting old!

Mike - Thank you man for the meals even if one was paid for by the casino. :) Wish I had more time to see James again but I was running out of time and energy.

Was happy to see the others and Brian you are the energizer bunny man, you never slow down. Wish I had seen the fun at George's party but I was waning fast and could see only bad coming of me staying around to show my rear end. :)

Jeremy - Quick answer to how good a shot a sniper must be in each position, Good enough to put the guys dick in the dirt. What does that equate to, depends. A quick thought, one shot one kill is anideal, in reality it is one shot 90 percent chance of a kill, or 85 percent, or 100 percent.

You must learn your limitations and group size for each range under all conditions. If your group sizer at a specific range is larger than that target you will miss a percentage of shots. If you are going to shoot a position you MUST shot 2 moa in each position that you use to be sure of a hit. Our students genereally shot within 2 moa or tighter in the prone supported on graduation and most will shot within 2 moa in the sitting. Now as you go to the more unsteady positions of kneeling and standing the goupd open up but you will also usually use some type of support in all positions so you are not shooting unsupported.

Now standing off hand is a snap shot and used in emergencies only. You should be able to hit within 3 moa on calm days and about as the wind and crap goes up so does your group size. Standing is an exercise of mind control. If you can hit in the black on a 200 yard NRA bull standing, then you can ring an 'e' type at 600. I do it to wow studetns on teh UKD ranges but then show them that it is not that hard. I have made, and won beer doing it, shots at over 900 meters using the .338 Lapua, but that is really cheating. :)

Time engaging depends on the circumstances and range. What is the weahter doing and how close to the presetn scope setting is the target and is he moving or standing observing. We shoot fleeting or snap targets at 200 meters and 400 meters within 3 seconds and they will appear anywhere in a 7 meter front at 200 and a 10 meter front at 400. The target is only the head of an FBI target at 200 and the chest line up on the same target at 400. We give the students 6 seconds to engage at 300 on the head over a 7 meter front but that is about to change to a 4 seconds as most shoot in 2 to 3 seconds anyway. As far as your scenario you take the time reuired to engage the target. If there is no danger of him moving out of your target area then make sure of your shot. When a sniper fires he is likely to cause an attitude problem among the survivors that you need to be prepared for. If the shot is a serious shot then I wnat blood when I receive that attitude problem not a miss. If there is little time then, and since you called range that I keep my weapon on all the time anyway, I could engage wihtin 10 to 12 seconds, if my spotter is on wind call and I am not dozing, or vise versa, I am on wind call and my shooter is not dozing. If the target is moving then that slows the process as we must estimate the mover lead and then add or subtract teh wind effect form the lead. This could add a couple seconds.

When shooting always shoot your worse postion first and the most. If you shoot sub moa in the prone supported, why shoot that the most. If you can get your mind disiciplined enough to shoot standing you will out shoot most in the prone and other poistions. It is all in the mind and it is a mind game. Shoot relaxed and never force the shot. Let it happen. The biggest mistake is that guys will use a bipod or pack and a rear bag and then not hold onto the weapon tight enough. This applies to standing and all other positions. I call it holding hard. :)

Wind - most read the winds too strict, look at a window of wind speeds and call the mid speed, 3 to 5 call 4. It is esier and you will learn to call winds faster. Make a call and stick to it. If you call it 3 to 5 and use 4 and it is wrong you will see the error. If yo call 2 to 4 or maybe 3 to 5 but could be 7 to 9 then you will noever let your mind see your mistake and wihtout mistakes you can not learn.

Well the old lady is screaming for chow time and my left eye is killing me. No editing and spelling mistakes are rampant in my posts but you guys ar use to them!

Andy's Dad,. good to see you again and Andy good to meet you. :)

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 22:28:23 (ZULU)

Greetings from Montana, USA.

I will be conducting a two-day precision rifle, precision shooting class on Sunday, February 26th and Sunday, March 5th, two full days in the classroom plus range time in April. If you live within drive distance of Missoula, and if you have a buddy who wishes to learn the science and art of being able to reliably make that tight shot at long distance, send me an email to inquire about the class.

Stay tuned for an announcement about a practical, long-range rifle match in western Montana, probably in June.

Best wishes,

Gary Marbut, president

Montana Shooting Sports Association

http://www.mtssa.org

Email: mssa@mtssa.org

author, Gun Laws of Montana

http://www.mtpublish.com

Gary
Missoula, Montana, USA - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 22:58:21 (ZULU)

Well back for a quicky or two. :)

Tony - Length is 48.5 inches on the .338 Lapua but the weapon length can vary on the .308 depending on the barrel you chose.

Boris - Yep, time flies when you are having fun, retired in 90 and it seems like yesterday. Luckily I get to stay in touch on sniping with my job or I would not even attempt to answer this stuff. :)

Bolt - Let me know when you build that sucker! I want to see the air evacuation system and lead containment system you have to put in. :)

Mike - Actually, I think you displaced that bush about two grid squares. :)

Just for clairification, accuracy on the range and settled in is different from accuracy under stress in the field. I know a bunch of shooters that can "hit a gnat's eye, shot after shot" but crush themselves in the field. You must be able to shoot the unexpected. In our competition we have the guys shoot in all sorts of positions and under all types of stress. It is fun to watch the guys come up on the line and then hear hit your target anyway you can but the muzzle must be atleast 24 inches off the ground. Shoot a head shot at night with a 3 second exposure, I can assure you that your groups will open up just a mite. The main thing is that you never open up past about 2 moa. At 1000 yards or 900 meters that is abut 20 inches and you just exceeded the size of the human torso. That means that some shots, even if everything is perfect, will be a miss.

PS - before anyone asks our comp is closed due to the TTPs discussed during parts of the comp and those used during the comp.

My 2 cents. :)

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, February 18, 2006, at 23:52:33 (ZULU)

Shopping country:

I'm arranging for one of my sister to pre-purchase a couple of wish-list items for me over the WWW. I'll be visiting her in Orlando from Canada in May. (Getting stuff drop-shopped and then bringing them back to Canada under personal trip exemption w/CCRA.)

I'm currently looking at Cabela's for a Surefire G2Z ($78.99),

and Natchez for a Harris LMS (83.14).

I'm open to alternative suggestions for lower price sourcing that uses solid, quality service vendors with a strong WWW site. Short lead time availability is also an important element.

Thanks

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 00:02:23 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any accuracy information on the 168 Gr HPBT re-manufactured ammo done by MASTER which sells for 10.00 a box from Cheaper Than Dirt? Budget running short in department and looking for alternate soure of training ammo since we don't reload. Any info would be great.

Thanks

jj
Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 00:32:18 (ZULU)

Thanks much Master Rick.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 00:39:28 (ZULU)

Rick.....

Dip a wash rag in warm salt water and hold it on the stye, keep doing it for a while re-dipping the rag when it cools off. Use as warm a water as you can stand. It workie!

I feel sorry for my little grandbuddy. He is miserable. I finally tried the old Tylenl Childrens DM + corn syrup and he's quit coughing for a while. Bought another Vicks Steam Genny with Katz Inhalant and maybe that will help also. Gonna be another long night.

Bolt tired and out!

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 00:58:26 (ZULU)

For a good flashlight with a reasonable pricetag, search on "Nuwai 3W" or "Nuwai 5W" (the double batt versions are more $$). I bought the 3W, single battery version for one of my jobs ($29/ea). They have both held up well under some pretty nasty conditions. Look for "Luxeon LED" when buying this type of light, it is the quality bulb offering (US made)

medicjim
Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 02:11:18 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Traffic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Re: Sniper School / Fort Benning

Rick B.,

Was channel surfing this evening and caught the last 15 min. of a program called "Sniper School" that was filmed at Fort Benning. What little I got to see was some excellent and honest footage of the training and 48hr FTX and graduation of class "0402". I checked my programming and it will be coming on again. Will look forward to watching it in its entirety tomorrow. If this was a re-run, I hadn't seen it before. The satellite info didn't show a date of production.

This was on the Discovery Times channel. (DTME)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 05:12:44 (ZULU)

Mk4 - Actaully that was filmed sometime ago. It is a good program, I have seen it a couple of times.

They asked to film our school, but could not live with our rules. :)

Will have to try Bolt's remedy, eye is keeping me up tonight. :(

Hold Hard guys!!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 05:56:26 (ZULU)

Rick, }Two grids?" buy you dinner and you insult me? Damm I dont remember getting married to you? Seriously it was honot to do so and spending time with and James is great any time. Not many folks I like as much as either of you. Hell not many folks that will talk with me.

Next year Catman, you and I are having dinner. Its a short flight for you.

Bravo, I hope everything worked out on your end.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 06:28:24 (ZULU)

MK4

Supposedly on the History Channel 02/21/06@ 6PM CST The Modern Marvels segment has a program on Combat Training. It was sopposed to have filmed at a place by MT. Carroll Ill. about 30 miles from me. The training facility is called The Site. It's mostly used by LE from the countys surrounding Chicago.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 11:45:36 (ZULU)

One other comment about position shooting: Great positions are not created on the range, but in dry firing in your back yard, or possibly in your house, if you have the view.

Once you have the basic positions down, set up a target that is of the size you want to hit in MOA or perhaps a bit smaller, at a range that you can focus your scope on, and go to work.

Lindy
An Undisclosed Secure Location, U.S.A. - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 13:38:40 (ZULU)

Lindy wrote: "Great positions are not created on the range, but in dry firing in your back yard, or possibly in your house, if you have the view."

Bill Pullam's excellent book "Successful Shooting" addresses Lindy's point. Click my name.

Wes recommended Jim Owens' wind book and video. That was the link I had posted earlier.

CDC'
Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 15:27:31 (ZULU)

Rick and his eye stye

Rick, I have the best way to handle it, and any other eye problems similar to that.

Boric acid. Buy some at the local pharmacy, look up on internet the proper measurements. It's roughly 1 teaspoon in 2 cups of previously boiled water, let cool down a little, add the boric acid, put in eye cup and rinse eye out several times. You can save the boric acid solution for a few days to use. Works great, I've been using it all my life.

Doug

doug sickels
Atlantic Highlands, NJ, United States - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 15:47:51 (ZULU)

Doug - I did look it up and got this advice at several of the sites -- Some patients may believe that boric acid is safe and effective as an antiseptic eyewash, but it is not. They may attempt to create a solution from boric acid powder, or boil boric acid solution to create their own eye drops. The risk of boron toxicity makes this practice potentially dangerous. Furthermore, any ophthalmic infection mandates immediate medical attention. -- http://www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/Cons/CYP12.htm&am.

Most of the boric acid hits were for killing bugs. :)

Is there a message there? :P

Only Kidding!

Hold hard

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 19:20:30 (ZULU)

Rick B - bacterial infections respond best to antibiotics.. there are special formulations for eyes and ears because they behave differently from the entire rest of the body.

Generally speaking, home remedies which alter PH or salinity will work on infections to some small degree, often enough to push the body's already engaged immune system into the position of advantage...thus appearing to cure. I am a huge fan of high concentration warm salt soaks for tough, superficial infections (like ingrown toe nails or nasty, oozing road rash) but everything else is best left to the MDs...they are good for something... unfortunately.

Ken H - I cannot speak from an informed perspective on the remedies you mentioned... my training is good, but very limited in scope.

medicjim
Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 19:37:28 (ZULU)

Sir Wes: Wading out in a stream in sub-zero? Dude, cold water sux. I haven't done sillyness like that in years--but i remember "pain." Rent a Viking drysuit....

Rod: Canada to Orlando? Can't ya be any more original than that? We "southerners" are starting to pattern you "northerners"--heheh. You'd probably go now but are having too much fun pushing artic air masses over the border....

I use Boric acid in my kennels periodically to deworm the soil....about the same time heart guard goes in the chow...I forget where I was taught that--but it is cheap...

My replacement arrived today. Afghanistan is looking likely as not.

Wasn't i just bitching about "cold" weather????

Boris
Sunday, February 19, 2006, at 20:14:16 (ZULU)

Gents,

Boris, the temperature was not sub zero, though it was about 19 degrees F. Took about 45 minutes to clear the small log jams. Cold did take it's toll. When done one cahone was the size of a mustard seed and the other was a little tiny sucker!

Viking Dry suits are for wimps (or those in control of their senses).

CDC & Lindy, good info on position shooting and dry firing.

Our Oregon State Sniper Championship was the 12th. Didn't get to go, as I was out of state, dammit. Five stages with targets to 440 yards. Limited to 600 yards by the host range. Timed events with minimal prep time. Multiple positions, movers, downhill shots, you name it. It was definitely a "know your rifle" course of fire. Those that practiced getting their gear set up, loading, come ups, etc., had the advantage.A case where the basics we have been talking about could give you a big advantage. Thus should be part of our training program.

Rick B's advice to shoot your worst positions more makes sense. I'm still a good prone shooter, but get a bit shakey in other positions. OK, I'm shakey in all positions. Remember, however, that even the worst shot gets lucky sometimes...;-)

All for now. Gotta go get my cahones out of the micro-wave.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Monday, February 20, 2006, at 01:12:54 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Been lurking for a while around the Roster and am in need of some opinions on rings and bases from TSP. I recently purchased a bolt rifle and need to top it with some optics. My previous rifles all had Badger rings and bases, but funds are tight now days with a baby on board so along comes TSP at a bit over half the price. I know, you get what you pay for, but I still need to watch the budget. Anyone have experiences with TSP in general and their products?

Thanks in advance for the help,

Laszlo

Laszlo Markos
Round Rock, TX, USA - Monday, February 20, 2006, at 03:48:15 (ZULU)

Laszlo,

I mounted a scope last year using TPS rings. My only complaint was I had one heck of a time getting them. The people are very nice; but they were swamped with military orders. The fit and finish was great. I wouldn't hesitate to use them again.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The frosty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, February 20, 2006, at 04:00:09 (ZULU)

Im in good old Minnesota,its colder the hell here.Its getting warmer though.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, February 20, 2006, at 14:42:29 (ZULU)

Folks, we need to keep voting for Boris (Joe). He has dropped to only a 250 vote lead!!!!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Monday, February 20, 2006, at 18:33:41 (ZULU)

Gents,

Looking through the reloading book, and watching the discussions on the board, the 6.5x284 is becoming really interesting. The fact you can launch a 100+gr. projectile at 3k+fps, using several powders including Varget, is really appealing. I'm thinking long range varminter. Those of you with 6.5x284s, what rifles do you have chambered for this? Recommendations?

Duman

Duman
Monday, February 20, 2006, at 18:49:51 (ZULU)

Bolt,

You need to get your own piece of land so you can set up your own private range! And while you're at it, go the whole hog and set it up like this guy has done, complete with reloading setup you cannot believe! Man, I am JEALOUS! And just look at that country...

Click my name for this link on the Six Funner Forum - http://forums.sixgunner.com/m_27446/mpage_1/key_reloading/tm.htm#27567

Marius

Marius
Monday, February 20, 2006, at 21:17:21 (ZULU)

Gents,

Duman, the 6.5 X 284 IS interesting. Mine is built on a IBA M40A1 and is scarey accurate. The Sierra 142 gr. SMK can be pushed to 2,950+ FPS out of the 26" tube. This with no pressure signs whatever. I suspect it's possible to get 3,050 FPS, but just don't like to push it that hard. Barrel life can be an issue. Chris shot his out in one season of Hi-Power competition.

As an option you may want to consider the 6.5/08(260 Remington). A number of lister's shoot it and swear by it. Boots Obermeyer is sold on it, if that's an indicator. Should you go that route I have some of his load data for that caliber.

Either way, you can't go wrong. Of course, there is always the .308...;-).

Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Monday, February 20, 2006, at 22:14:39 (ZULU)

6.5-284 stuff;

This should be of interest to some folks.

Barrel results:

http://www.savageshooters.net/Articles/2005BarrelReview.html

For other info, go to the Project 2005 sections. Rob Martin and I spend a a full year with them and leaned a lot.

http://www.savageshooters.net/Articles.html

I love my .260AI!

Marius;

The guy who has that set up is Art Hammer. He's a regular on Savageshooters and has been to South Africa a few times. I'm hoping we can talk him into going on a group hunt sometime. He's a really great person to be around even though he is a mathmatician, LOL.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, February 20, 2006, at 23:22:31 (ZULU)

Wes,

"Either way, you can't go wrong. Of course, there is always the .308...;-) " .... says the addict! Just how many 308's do you have ?!?

6.5x284 brass is available off the shelf, though a bit pricey. I'm not sure I want to go through the process of forming brass for an AI.

Didn't someone have an AR-10 chambered for the 6.5x284?

Duman
Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 01:59:03 (ZULU)

Has anyone seen Art Hammer shoot?

CDC'
Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 02:30:46 (ZULU)

Thank you all for replying to my questions about accuracy in different positions.

Right now I am practicing shooting only prone because I am only a beginner and my gun is heavy ): Anyway I just go out in the woods and find a spot where I can shoot the range I want then lay down and start shooting. That way I don’t get used to shooting from a bench because lets face it how many shooting benches are out in the woods?

Thanks a lot for all the advice I know the right advice is a real key to becoming good a lot quicker!

Hey any of you guys from Oregon? I would love to see you shoot and maybe get a few pointers.

Jeremy

Jermey
Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 02:37:38 (ZULU)

Gents,

Duman, You want an AR style 6.5 X .284? It's probably do-able, but barrel life in a semi-auto would REALLY suck. Besides, it's blasphemy to chamber the 6.5 X .284 in anything other than a bolt gun!

Jody, good synopsis of the Douglas and Pac-Nor barrels. Pac-Nor is just down the coast from me. Couple hours drive. Good product/great lads. Chris is a prince of a fella. Dave Kiff (Pacific Precision) and JGS are on the Oregon coast, as well. A lot of talent there.

Interestingly, no synopsis of projected barrel life was given. Both were tested at 1,100 rounds. I'll assume at least 2k barrel life if you don't overheat the tube, a la semi-auto fire or NRA Hi-Power Rapid Fire Stages.

As a side note Dave Kiff made the original 6.5 X .284 Norma reamers for Black Hill's Ammo. Jeff Hoffman turned me on to him. One of his reamers was used on my IBA rifle. It's in my shop now. These are live pilot reamers, if you were wondering.

Wes Comes Clean! OK, fellas. I currently own only three .308 rifles, but I'm working on a .308 featherweight and have my eye on a SAKO TRG-41. Yes, I LOVE the .308. It simply is an excellent performing cartridge and does 99% of what I need done. My 6.5 and .338 Lapua are toys by comparison. My M40A1 .308 is my working rifle. Other cartridges better? Maybe, but none have the barrel life or availability of the .308. Preferred barrels are Obermeyer 5R(good luck finding one) and Krieger. My Hart tube on the 6.5 X .284 is primo. I just prefer cut rifled barrels. IBA will only use Hart tubes. Says a lot about Hart quality. The Hart tube on my 6.5 X .284 sure shoots!

Jeremy, I'm up in Salem, Oregon. Hit me on e-mail and we'll hook up. Not that I'm a great shot or that knowledgable, but it'd be nice to have someone to commiserate with after a day of shitty shooting performance!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

P.S. Please don't hate me...I have two Obermeyer barrels in the safe. No, they are NOT for sale!

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 03:40:53 (ZULU)

CDC;

I have not done any range time with Art. So far, we have only had lunch a few times when he is in town on business. He has never bragged about being a great shooter but that's not the kind of person he is. I have seen pictures of animals he has bagged over the years but minute of deer is rather large so I can't make any judgement based on that. He does have a fascination with firearms and ammo that borders on the extreme, LOL.

Wes;

We originally intended to do 1500 rounds as that seems to be the rule of thumb on decent accuracy with that cartridge. We didn't make the 1500 but we learned all we needed to know at 1100 anyway as it was a comparison of the barrels more than anything else.

Tim North told me there is a couple hundred rounds left in the Pac-Nor but not anything to get excited about. A different powder or load combo may could have lessened the wear but we had 12 months to wear them out in. I never thought shooting could be a chore.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 04:08:03 (ZULU)

SWAT guys: The link from my name came by way of Instapundit. This claims outrageous abuse by door kickers. I would be interested in hearing your comments.

Jody Calhoun: Well, Mr. Hammer certainly has a nice-looking place. The view looks like the Northern Rockies. A quick google search shows an Art Hammer at Qualpro Inc. They are statistical consultants who appear to specialize in designing experiments and analyzing the resultant data. Is that him? In any case, I bought the company's book from Amazon. It will be here tomorrow. Since I am familiar with the subject, and since he appears to have made it pay MUCH better than I have, the book seemed like it would be worth a quick glance.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 04:50:33 (ZULU)

The real question is could a guy have too many 308's?I don't think you could.It all started with me I was shooting my old 30-06 and I thought that was accurate at about 1.5 moal.Then I purchased the 308 and went out to the range all were less than 1inch Ive been hooked on the 308 since.

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 19:07:47 (ZULU)

Hawgs, anybody ever handle a Nikon Buckmaster 4.4-14x40 side focus? Got a line on one with mil-dots and it's cheap. No target turrets, but Stoney Point has those IIRC. I know Nikon is known to have pretty good glass but thought I would run it by youse. TIA.....

Geoff M
WI, USA - Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 19:40:00 (ZULU)

Sinister:

I just had a "small world moment".

The guy that was my platoon leader in '76 is an O-7 now and I think you know him.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 19:56:43 (ZULU)

Jody,

I had my 6.5x284 bore scoped by JR after the D&L shoot a few years ago. It had right at 1300rds through it. JR said it was starting to show throat wear at that point. He thought maybe it would go another 1000 before it was junk.

To make a long story short I loaned it to my son and he junked it out the next year at the D&L shoot with another 400rds because he got it hotter than hell in a man on man shoot. It will depend on how you shoot them and how hot you get them.

I kept from getting mine to hot when shooting and it was still shooting better than I could at 1300rds. I figure if you don't get them hot 2000rds would be doable.

I also have shot the barrels out of three 260s and love them. They will go to around 3000rds. I just sent my current one in @ 1700 to have the barrel set back so I can see if I can streach that out some.

Pat
Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 20:42:04 (ZULU)

Catman,

I found the guy who is going to finish my rifle.Go to www.thebigshooter.com and click on the custom rifles.Tell me what you think, it will look just like that but in all black and left handed.

Jon Kujawa
Princeton, MN, USA - Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 22:02:17 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

They seem to be all over the place - I would rather have a tactical riffle built by someone that only does that - and a woodchuck rifle built by a 'smith that spends his Sundays whackin' woodies.

These guys are all over the place - Tactical, 1000yd benchrest, 1000 yd hunting - It don't pass the smell test - how light (money wise) are they willin' to make you, for one of their toys?

Also... I am always weary of a smith that says they "Blue print" an action - that's a sucker phrase, it can't be done... search the archives about blue printing actions - we have had many discussions on this one.

It's all snow, especially with a Rem 700 action - they are loosie goosie and it would take a micro-welder three weeks to build it up and then turn it down to "spec".

If you want a blue printed action, go to a custom action builder that makes them for the BR crowd - they make actions that are soooo fine, they will make you wet your panties - all for about $1,500 (for the cheap ones... stripped!!)

You want a good tactical stick, go to George, who builds the sticks that are raffled off here - these are the REAL DEAL, and you will never out grow it. For about three and a half long, you have a top of the line sniper stick, and a MK4-M3 scope, and enuff change left to take your Hunny out to the local drive-in.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, February 21, 2006, at 22:32:23 (ZULU)

Pat;

The main purpose of the project was to compare a Pac-Nor to a Douglass (via Sharp Shooter Supply) in a real world year long test. This was because we were always being asked which barrel was better for what. We had figured the Pac-Nor was more accurate but as long lasting but the Douglass would be better for those who want more miles for their money but need match winning accuracy. The project confirmed our theory and we made a lot of great contacts in the shooting business and learned a lot too. Can't ask for more, LOL.

If it were my personal target shooting barrel, I would have played around with powder selection some and not put 1100 rounds down it in just under 11 months. With proper care I would bet you could get close to 2000 rounds through it.

CDC;

You are correct. That is the same Art Hammer. He used to work at Oak Ridge before joining another fella from there and becoming consultants. He comes to the Mobile area to work on projects for Olin.

Multiple Variable Testing is their gig.

He lives in Idaho.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 00:07:46 (ZULU)

Catshooter

George at GA just finished rebarrelling my .223. Not knowing him I always assumed it was a one man operation. (what do I know) Anyway I guess it was finished while he was away at the show. To get to the point... He said he blueprints the actions during the rebarrelling process.

What did he mean by that if its not true blueprinting?

Did you see the 33 pound cat on the Drudge Report? He had a 32 inch waist

Doug

doug sickels
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 00:56:05 (ZULU)

Scope questions: Has anyone used or looked at the Burris Xtreme line of scopes and rings? Also any of the straight tube variables? (ie Nightforce 2.5x10 24mm and the IOR 2x12 35mm). I'm just curious about the Burris but I'm looking for something small for an AR10 project. I want a small precision scope mounted on the rail and a small canted Jpoint or Docter red dot mounted offset to it.

For those who went to the shot show are there any similiar type scopes or other good optics coming out soon? That Elcan Dr Specter looks good for a new AR scope.

The 6.5x284 is a good round. I don't own one but I have fired a few. I prefer my 260 short barrel and my 6.5-06 short barrel. Both will reach 1000yds without any problems and I expect a lot longer barrel life from the lower velocities.

Someone asked about long action magnum ARs. I think Cobb manufacturing makes a few.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 01:58:14 (ZULU)

Catman,

I've been doing alot shooting with the guy that owns the company,he's a great guy and he said he could give me a deal.Also he is a local guy.We talked some numbers and its about 1500.00 said and done,Thats 830.00 for the Mcmillan A5 with the upgraded cheek piece and three way butt plate.200.00 to pillar bed and finish it.130.00 for the badger tactical bolt knob installed.The he said about 330.00 to cut and rechamber and true up the action and to lap the bolt lugs.I think they have more than one smith working for them.

Thanks for the help, its always good to have a voice of reason.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 02:05:42 (ZULU)

For some reason when I search the archives all I get is the yellow & Black header then a white blank page.

"Sniper Country Site Search - Courtesy of John Leveron at Leveron.com"

The page indicater states "done" the cursor remains an arrow instead of the helping hand. any suggestion welcome

SO who ever posted about the leupold clone on Ebay I had a brain fart and ordered it for $89.00 plus shipping. I figures worst to worst I could mount it on a cheap 22 and play.

Mark 4 M3 Mildot Cross Scope Leupold Replica M1

It came in and I mounted it on my Tactial Rem 700, with Badger 20 MOA base, Warner rings.

It appears that is it a good Leupold clone, The Bulter flip up scope caps for the Leupold fit and it looks like it would take the Sungard anti reflection cap that is made for the LTR scope,

Optics are clear, out to the edge of the glass. parallex looks good to these old eyes. adjustable from here to infinity.

I wanted to see if it tracks at 100 yds..

It tracks! Up 7 minutes, left 7 minutes, down 7 minutes, right 7 minutes, a 100 yrs off a bench.

I fired one round then clicked over Etc for 3 rounds in each group.

The four 3 shot groups are clover leaves. all 3 rds touching in each group.

:-))

I am going to try it at 200, 300, 600 yards this month and hope to stretch it to 1000 yards by April.

bomac
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 02:43:16 (ZULU)

JK: Do I understand you to mean that he wants to put $1030 in the stock then cut and rechamber the factory barrel?

CDC'
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 02:48:47 (ZULU)

Heelllp meee...I'm falling into the anal abyyysss!!

Doing brass prep. Cleaned, decapped, resized. Cleaning with ultrasonic cleaner and noticed wilst drying and once over that flash holes (some) are'nt quite round. Dumb question, Since this is once fired brass and factory stuff shoots like house 'o fire without nice perty flash holes, how much brass prep is actually needed? Does every bit of residue need to be gone from primer pockets (itty bitty bits of residue). Aint no bench shooter neither, just a scumoftheearth construction electrician who likes to shoot at distance... any of 'em!

How far do you all take your brass prep? Really, come on I gotta know!

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 02:58:59 (ZULU)

Scott F:

On brass prep:

These are my opinious, others may tell you otherwise...

Primer pockets - the important part is to get rid of enough residue that the new primer seats to the bottom of the pocket.

Flash holes - uniform is better, but the key is to get rid of any big burrs created by factory punching. The better brass (Lapua, etc) has drilled, not punched flash holes (which means no uniforming is needed). Realistically if you're shooting non-benchrest below 400 yds uniforming the flash holes will be unlikely to demonstrate any differences unless you started with really crummy brass.

Brass prep is as much a state of mind as demonstratable difference.

Ultrasonic cleaning is more extreme than most folks feel is necessary, but if it makes you feel good...

Be careful about using cleaning solutions that seriously attack brass, or you will be prematurely aging your brass. That would result in cracking after only a few firings due to embrittlement. High-ammonia solutions are a no-no.

One of the more inciteful statements on the topic I read was by a winning High Power shooter - something to the effect that time spent on extreme measures at the reloading bench was time not available for live fire practice on the range.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 03:40:12 (ZULU)

Mang...

I'm sorry I brought up that blueprinting thing...

OK... it works like this (there is a lot of this in the archives).

Blueprinting is a term that comes from engine re-builders. It means that (for example) if the cams are worn, most engine hacks will just gring the lobes to a new (and smaller) contour and put back it in again, with maybe 0.08" less lift - if the crankshaft is worn, they will gring it, fit oversized shells, and put it back in - in a blueprinted engine, the cam will be built up with high quality welding and reground to the ORGINAL "blueprint" contour - the worn crank will be built up and ground to the orginal diameter.

Now... some time back, some 'smiths stole the phrase "Blueprinting" for actions, cuz it sounds so Godamn cool, I mean race car guys do it, so it's gotta be cool, right??

But the Remington actions are already "worn out" when you buy them - they are not a +0.02" clearence - they will rattle and the bolts flop around, a LOT!!

But customers started "demanded" blueprinted actions... "Well, why won't you blueprint my action, the guy across town will?"... so even good 'smiths started using the term.

It has come to mean lapping the lugs, and cleaning out the crud... which is OK.

Some guys will cut the action threads oversized to "center" the barrel - a VERY badd thing, cuz you ruin the action, and are forever requiring oversized barrel threads for replacement, which adds $$$$ to the cost of barrels.

George is the real deal, but like many, he has to go with the flow.

I mean it's like "New and Improved"... what house wife will buy a dish detergent that's not "New and Improved"???

Doug...

Yes, I saw the 33 pound cat on Fox's news channel this morning (E.D. Hill wakes me up ;)... that's one hellova cat - need a .375 H&H for it ;))

Jon-K...

WHAT????

Like CDC said - $1500 and he's gonna put back the same POS barrel - give this guy a pass on ethical grounds.

Lookie - the Remington barrels useta cost $18 (that's no typo - EIGHTEEN DOLLARS) - any gun builder will tell you they are the worst factory barrels on American guns... it was $18 until they switched to a cheaper one :(((((

*(Note the the rifles from Remington's "Custom shop" are very good to outstanding!!)

I bought a little Rem Classic a few years ago in .221 fireball for a walkin' chuck rifle, and there were THREE loose places in the barrel - that's when you push a tight patch through the barrel and there are three places that the rod goes easier :((

And I put a $300 Douglas air gauge barrel on it, and that's just for chucks at up to 250 yds... and when I pulled the orginal barrel, there was rust on the threads - and the gun was NEW cuz it was a new calibre for them, and it was a new production run, so it couldn't have been more than a few months old!!

The point of this is for $1,500, you are getting a sexy stock, and an $18 barrel - you could set it back all you want, you still got a short $18 barrel. NO ETHICAL GUN MAKER WOULD ALLOW THIS TO GO OUT OF THE SHOP!

All flash, and no go!!

... 'nuff said - go elsewhere!

Bomac...

The Chinee' are doing some damage to the big companies - I bought a Bezer 2x7 with AO and a ranging cam for $55 (and a free set of Ginsu knives :) a month ago and it's the best damn $55 I spent since I got Suzy to take off her... aw, never mind ;)

The damn little scope is sharp, crystal clear, accurate and water proof, and now sits on a Mini-14.

Scott F...

>"... and noticed wilst drying and once over that flash holes (some) are'nt quite round."<

Aw Jeeze, and we let this guy onto Sniper Country??? How did he slip by, and get past fired case inspection?

Damn, I don' know what we're gonna do.

OK, Scott, here's what you gotta do to save your no good shiftless ass.

Send me all those shitty cases with the out of round flash hole so I can dispose of them properly, and then go out and buy 500 Norma cases (about $1.50 EACH), cuz they have flash holes drilled to 0.086364520 +/- 0.000000001", and use them... OK?

Or... you could shoot the the ones you have, as they are, and not see any difference.

;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 03:52:31 (ZULU)

Tony I used a NXS 2.5-10 and it was agreat little scope. Only faults are .25moa clicks, hard to field adjust lit reticle feature (So NVD use or no NVD use must be decided before field trip) and rear focal plane reticle. Keeping in mind a 25-600 yard rig I think it will serve you well. Optics and construction are super.

On rifles I go with Catman on the 1500 and still the original bbl thing.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 04:45:39 (ZULU)

Guys, thanks for the "brass prep" comments.

'Lito,

Thats why I directed the anal part toward your direction. Thought a little fececious statement about flash holes would bring ya out like a lawyer chasin an ambulance... I ever tell you what I think about lawyers and judges. Don't matter, they're kinda like flash holes, don't need to slick 'em up just shoot 'em and be done with it.

How'd I get in here? They said they let you in!

Love ya mang!

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 05:39:03 (ZULU)

I sent a Winchester Model 70 HBV in 22/250 to G.A. Precision a year ago. It came back with an A5 and rebarrelled to a 260 for less than what talking. Send the gun to George.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 10:02:32 (ZULU)

Lito: Anyone who has ever run a patch thru a Remmie barrel can tell ya they suck...doesn't take a gunmaker to feel those constrictions. If not a tomato stake--they'd be useful in the hourglass role.

JK: If all i did to a remmy---it would be the removal of that shitpipe they call a barrel. Install it on the back of your door and drill a hole in the 'crete for an extra measure of household security. Heheh. That's a lot of jack for a stick that will be no more betterer than it is now...

Up til a few years ago--I did not believe the barrels were "that bad" and, well...I spent money and found out.

Youz guys are right, and I get a knucklehead award.

My replacement here hath arrived; I teach him the ropes, and off i go to greener pastures. This guy's real job is cop; good dude as ya might figure. But, my last roommate was IG, and current roommate is prosecutor...is someone trying to tell me sumptin????

Heheh.

Boris
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 11:20:53 (ZULU)

Keep banging on Boris' vote button... the 'Fox' is chasin' him!!!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 14:08:34 (ZULU)

I did not think that the remmy barrels were that bad.My rifle shoots great probley better than me I just wanted a differnt stock.I quess I wait until I get the cash to make up my mind.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 16:46:42 (ZULU)

CDC',

Given one wish, I think mine would BE Barbara Eden at 25 ..... ;8-p

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 17:44:49 (ZULU)

Kujawa,

"Buy cheap, buy twice."

"You can only put so much perfume on a pig."

"If you put frosting on a cow pie, you still have a cow pie."

"If it shoots great, don't mess with it."

"If it ain't broken, mess with it 'till it is, thus justifying new gear."

"Best use of a Remmy barrel is at 18fps in a large arc, thus generating enough force to break the ice in the watering trough." - paraphrased from Bruce, may he RIP.

"Sans rifle, a Chrysler minivan at 88fps can be effective for harvesting a deer." paraphrased from one of the more popular contributors.

I'm sure there are many more that can be conjured up. ;8-p

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 18:45:59 (ZULU)

What a day...

Did you guys know that Nigeria is in Connecticut, USA???

Well, I didn't know that either (must have been cuz I was lookin' at the geography teacher's chest instead of payin' attention).

I just got another one of those "You have just won the $350,000,000 Lottery" notices, and it came from guess where...

Customer Service

Connecticut Lottery Corporation

34 Creek Road Victoria Island Lagos Nigeria

LAGOS NIGERIA, CT 06051

... ain't that something - you never stop learning geography! My 7th grade teacher would be proud ;))

My Hunny sent me this from her work...

***

The Media Missed this one!!!!

Please read this, then send it to everybody you know.

They'll thank you as they forward this to others as well.

Subject: Denzel Washington, and Brooks Army Medical Center

Don't know whether you heard about this but Denzel Washington and his family visited the troops at Brook Army Medical Center, in San Antonio,Texas (BAMC) the other day. This is where soldiers who have been evacuated from Germany come to be hospitalized in the United States, especially burn victims. There are some buildings there called Fisher Houses. The Fisher House is a Hotel where soldiers' families can stay, for little or no charge, while their soldier is staying in the Hospital. BAMC has quite a few of these houses on base, but! as you can imagine, they are almost filled most of the time.

While Denzel Washington was visiting BAMC, they gave him a tour of one of the Fisher Houses. He asked how much one of them would cost to build. He took his check book out and wrote a check for the full amount right there on the spot. The soldiers overseas were amazed to hear this story and want to get the word out to the American public, because it warmed their hearts to hear it.

The question I have is why does:

Alec Baldwin, Madonna, Sean Penn, and other Hollywood types make front page news with their anti-everything crap and Denzel Washington's Patriotism doesn't even make page 3 in the Metro section of any newspaper except the Local newspaper in San Antonio??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 18:49:32 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Hey there fella, how did that big cat get past youse?

Blueprinting actions...Yeah, be careful about that, and what you get charged for..If it's lapping bolt lugs, truing bolt face, it should be called accurizing. If it includes chasing the action threads, it should be called accurizing with chased threads..To me a 'blueprinted' action should follow a blueprint..And if you ever order another barrel with that blueprinted action, the chamber threads will have to suit...

And Paul, I've seen a few jobs in from Rem Custom Shop lately, 40x stuff, over the past two years, and have had to write a couple reports to Big Green on their inepdtness..Same snake barrels..That patch might not have shifted thrice because of bore diameter necessarily, but because of directional change of the bore, hahah...That's not what I wrote about, but wasn't much different than factory standards...One instance I did complain about, they severely stamped their mark on the breech side of the recoil lug, or the side which touches the aluminum block..eh??..another one, I could lightly tap the forend of the stock and smack the underside of the barrel...Not so good....especially if shooting off bipod, with one heavy son of a gun barrel weight.. When they pay basically the same price for a custom Rem shop job as a used remmy rebuild from us, the quality should be there...Just can't get the staff perhaps..

Have you noticed the new line of CDL's are a bit tighter than the older versions?? We've had to buy in some new rifles to tear them down, and I must say, the bolt fit seems tighter, the lines are cleaner, much better action than the older 700's....Have Remmy taken note?

later

JR
Langholm, Scotland, - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 19:08:55 (ZULU)

JR: Glad you weighed-in. I always learn something when you do.

JK and Whoever: Too much is made of the rifle. Given any reasonably good one, almost all of the variability in the rifle/shooter system is in the shooter. Get your rig properly tweaked and torqued then go shoot the rifle you have. Wear out the barrel practicing. As you need new components, replace the ones you have.

Not everyone needs a high-dollar rifle. I don't. You could probably make your stock fit you well enough. Lengthen it, shorten it, raise the comb, whatever.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 19:39:07 (ZULU)

Hey, JR...

Damn good to hear from you.

I did have one 40XB barrel problem... A 40XB stainless (action and barrel were stainless)... the barrel was OK (I guess) but the chamber (300WM) had reamer chatter.

I sent it back and they said it was my fault, cuz I had black teflon'ed the action and barrel - and I told them that... first, in Tefloning, I use brass hangers (suspension rods), and two, chatter is caused by only one thing, shitty chambering... they whined for a few weeks, and I wouldn't budge, and one day, without notice, the action shows up with a PRIMO barrel and minimum chamber, so they did right for me. The gun is a fly swatter!!

What a lot of guys don't know is that Rem has been in trouble for a while, and have replaced a lot of it's craftsmen, with run of the mill T&D makers from other industries... poopoo happens - but I have seven 40X's of various flavors and they are all ourstanding!

About the stamp on the recoil lug... they have always been on the breech side, but they have varied in depth over the years, and when I get a Rem, one of the first things I do is file it flat, and them fill the indented stamp with clay, so I can glass bed it... so they are never a problem.

About the quailty... You know, they may be trying to turn this barrel and action thing around, cuz back 4 to 6 years (their lowest period IMNSHO), there were a lot of complaints - maybe you are right, and they are listening???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 19:39:39 (ZULU)

Playing catch-up here…..

Patron Boris, you got the e-mail I sent?

Yeah Ken, I was talking about their new and improved carrier, the one that’s heavier than stock, and looks like a billet. I’ve often wondered about the reciprocating mass, and why it’s so small in the ’16 series. Looking at the mass of a ’14 bolt and oprod, the massive carrier of the HK 91, or the big ‘ol carrier and bolt assy of the FAL, well, it makes one wonder why they didn’t beef up the AR reciprocating parts.

Geoff, my friend, it’s time for you to collect on the bet, if anyone was silly enough to wager anything. I agree completely. The simple fact that the 50 has smash and bash power in abundance makes it worth while for me. Range and power, no wonder the politicos want to see it gone! If there’s two things they worry about, it’s maintaining power once they’ve gone too far, and how they’ll execute their will. One means shorty 223s to punch vests, the other means 50 BMGs. Will the 50 do anything that the Lapdog won’t on soft targets? Doubtful. Very doubtful. But the reverse can’t be said about hard targets, as I understand it. If I’m wrong, I’ll wait for my dressing down ;-) As an example, I’m thinking about some third-world hell-hole. Someone that needs offing is being driven around in a car moderately armored. If a 308 ain’t gonna make a dent, and the Lapdog would be marginal at best, would a round of AP from a 50 work?

Duman, gonna call you about the Surefire. I gotta get something hand-held (not a weapon light) coming here moderately soon. Got the X200A incoming already.

And Moe volunteers to be a chaperone! Gonna be interesting. Gonna be interesting. I’m betting there’s enough prune juice in Florida to keep him running ;-)

Mike, on kiddo ear problems, you’ll love this. My nephew was having similar problems, so my grandmother noted that when my father was that age, paregoric worked well. Of course, then I felt the need to explain that it wasn’t available today, and what was in it LOL! War on children’s drugs!

On wind: I asked Patron Mike about how many clicks windage were required if one couldn’t stand upright to walk in it. That happens around here. His statement was “zero”. Seems you stalk either into or away from the wind, and make the shot there. Surprisingly simple, eh?

It’s about time someone recounted some Chainsaw action! I see no mention of bruising though LOL!

Oh, and a bit of warning. Look out for Tony, he’s a dope dealer for grassbellies. I feel the need to go multicam, all due to him, and does he try to talk me out of it? Nah, he helps fuel my desires for new and better LOL! Talk about one smart puppy! I’m not sure if multicam will actually replace my standard 3 desert cammies, but it’s definitely on my “to try” list. Got some of that stuff incoming, although in the hotter 50/50 nyco (still lightweight) instead of my preferred 100% cotton ripstop. When I give it a good try, if it works as advertised, it’s a whole new gear pattern for me.

And James was at SHOT? Wow, missed that opportunity! Patron Mike, yeah, everything worked out. Just a matter of a kid having so much fun he wore himself out. Funny how kids of all ages start getting cranky when they’re exhausted LOL!

Technical question of the day: One of the reasons I love Winchesters is because of the fact the bolt handles are cut from the same chunk of metal the bolt bodies are. One piece, solid steel. Now, I admit I’ve never owned one of those nifty oversized bolt handles, like what George puts on some of his sticks. My problem with that though, would be that we’re talking about something aluminum, put on after cutting the bolt handle down. Is there a way for me to have my cake and eat it too?

6.5X284 country: don’t forget the Swede! Or if you prefer, you can call it the 260 Magnum.

Bravo
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 21:05:14 (ZULU)

Rifle cost;

Here's what I have in my F-Class Savage Model 114

Pac-Nor 30" stainless barrel, medium Palma contour, .260AI $330

Sharp Shooter Supply SVT stock (think McM A-5) with Anshutz rail, adj. cheek piece and adj. butt plate $425

Sharp Shooter Supply action work (not blueprinted!), recoil lug, trigger and bolt handle $300

Brownells Acra-glas gel bedding kit $20

Paint $10

Harris bipod $60

Ken Farrel base and rings $175

Leupold Vari-X II 6-18X40 AO Target $425

Total $1745

The only factory parts on this rifle is the bolt, receiver and barrel nut.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 21:51:34 (ZULU)

Geoff M,

Nikon 4.5x14x40 Buckmasters Mildot, bought one awhile back, just got it on the rifle so I have not shot it yet. Looks to be a good scope, clear crisp glass. Buddy has one, his tracks perfectly so I'm hoping mine will do the same. You're right , no target turrets, but they are indexed and turnable by hand. Have pics of the elevation knob if you are interested. Shoot me an email, ropp at state dot nd dot us

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 21:54:11 (ZULU)

Bravo, notice all those other guns you mention are 7.62 and it becomes obvious;)

The AR is fine with bolts and recip mass. WTF do you want MORE for?? One of the reasons the AR's are so accurate and so durable for accuracy is that they don't have an assload of mass flapping about.

The 338 has some AP loads avail, but nothing like the 50cal. 50cal you can get API(in several flavors), AP, APDS, plus ball and VLD designs. A decent lead core SMK and we'd be in hog heaven. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 21:58:10 (ZULU)

I was just gion to build a new rifle on the Surgeon action,but I found out that they do no make a left handed action.so Im stuck with my old action.But I also would like the rock pipe installed too.But I have been looking hard at the krieger(spelling)med tapper with the carbon fiber wrap,it is so differnt its cool.But I can get the rock barrel for almost half the price.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 22:29:45 (ZULU)

Bravo buddy, I thought you would see it my way.

Here's some foot for thought for ya on cammies. They are great for training, very practical and comfy, true. When worn during a civil event, they may also be a target indicator depdning on the nature of the "event". Here is my philosophy as a civvy. For bigtime, aliens are invading, bugout for the hills kit, Woodland is the heat for my AO. OD works too, and you can mix and match. In the winter, 3 color desert is excellent my AO, Woodland and OD still work up north where there are plentiful pine woods. I really like 3 color desert for deer hunting, that time of year everything is tan/brown, mixed with whatever snow cover exists.

The large scale bugout kit I am putting together will be in woodland since it works for most circumstances.

However, it's probably much more likely (that's irony right there!) that any SHTF situation will be more limited in scope. Staying home and mounting a fixed defense if needed is the best situation. For some of us it would be more of a mobile situation, with the goal simply being getting you and those you have taken charge of to a specific someplace to enhance survivability and overall welfare.

A lot of rednecks around here like to paint their pickup truck camo for hunting and fishing, etc. My truck is burgandy and plain looking. In traffic, you don't notice it. Instead of camo I'll be wearing black undearmor in varying layers depending on conditions, and khaki 5.11s or plain cargo pants. "Other items" will match the pants OR the shirt depending on circumstance. I will look like a "good guy", and that's good, because I are one.

BTW....5.11s are very nice, I dig 'em. YMMV. If you get them, DO NOT get the "lightweight" nylon ones that they promote for hot weather. The material doesn't breathe, they are miserable. The plain cotton ones rock. The details are well thought out, such as the extra layer of material sown at the corner of each pocket where your folding knife clips on. Drag handle. AND, stretchable waistband.....just the thing for those of us who can't resist those deep fried catfish nuggets! I swear, my waist size goes up and down by 1-2" every week. I have yet to find plain cargo pants with the stretchable waist.

Robert, I held off on the scope and it got snapped up at $200. :-( Oh well.....I may try one of those Luepy knockoffs. Normally I would be of the "protect Luepy" mindset, but for some reason I am pretty indifferent after the Premier flap......

Jon, you must have a nice budget. Didn't you post about your current rifle going sub MOA? Easy there buddy, spend some time shooting and enjoy it!!!! Trigger pulling is much more fun than agonizing over which two grand is better spent to get another 1/8" inch off your group size! Is there a race, or a fire? LOL.

Seriously, go with a Rock 5R from George, and shoot a whole bunch.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, February 22, 2006, at 22:49:05 (ZULU)

Stan, he was and you would of had dinner with him if you had not bugged out.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 01:25:24 (ZULU)

Ha, I knew I had you sniffing at the bait Bravo. When you looked at the website and saw the photo gallery and how well the pattern matches multiple AO's I knew you'd take the bait. Pretty neat stuff for sure.

I've got a problem that I need some help with. I've always heard how good Black Hills ammo is. A friend gave me a few boxes of .308 175 Match and I took it out to shoot it last weekend and chrono it to see what it did in my rifle.

The rifle is a GAP H2 with broughton barrel.

The weather was overcast, baro 30.38, temp 39 degrees. Chronograph is an Oehler 35P

I shot 20 rounds through the chrono. Hi was 2672, Lo was 2522, ES was 150, Average was 2591, standard deviation was 30.

This is the worst shooting stuff I've ever put through my rifle. A local SWAT officer was with me and shot some through his rifle, a stock Rem. VS and had similar results, although a bit slower due I think to the rougher factory barrel.

Would an overcast day cause this kind of readout with the chrono?

I didn't get to shoot it at longer ranges, but at 100 yards it appeared to group OK, for what that's worth.

Has anyone else ever seen this kind of performance from Black Hills? This stuff has been kept inside in the gun safe.

Tony Burkes
Alvin , Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 01:46:46 (ZULU)

'lito & others,

Re. Denzel Washington and BAMC, not all true. He DID write a large check but not enough for a complete 'home.' See www.snopes.com

FYI, my wife spent 2 months in one of the 'homes' there.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 04:05:45 (ZULU)

Ken, OK, I'll bite. How about we compare the reciprocating masses of the M16 with that of the HK93, AK47 (to make it apples to apples, the variant the East Germans used in 5.56 NATO), and the Sig 550? You're right, not thinking, I disengaged my typing fingers from my brain. Still, the thought (I believe) has something to it.

Geoff, sure, I agree to a point. The problem is, I believe that no matter how I'm dressed, someone that looks will get the idea that I'm ready to play for keeps. Probably from the '14 in my hands. Besides, how does one keep magazines on body without looking like you're carrying mags? My thought is that it's best all around to not be seen. You're right about 3 color desert working in the snow, I've tried that too ;-) On the truck, the color is the one thing I didn't like. Gimme a ticket red. Hard to miss the decal from InSain's guys in the back window too (GRIN).

Mike, yeah, I understand. I'm sure looking forward to the day when Bub can do this stuff with me. Like Andy and Kevin. I'm also very much looking forward to the first day Bub can't deploy, for the same reason, and laughing at him pretty seriously. That'll be the good times, and for the most part, I'm happy as a clam. Sometimes though, being continuously and totally responsible just flatly sucks. Wouldn't change a thing though.

Tony, if I get addicted, does that mean you'll feed my camo need? HA! I'm thinking that if I can pull it off (sometime in the future), I'll get a pair of those pants, and have them reverse-engineered. Made locally, I can't help but believe I could get 'em at half price, max, and probably closer to a quarter. Seems there's some good clothing seamstresses around..... typically the kinds of gals that when you ask "are you the lady of the house?" you get the reply "I'm one of them" LOL! They can keep the shirt though. Mandarin colars give me shaving rash ;-)

Speaking of which, got the rigger lined out this evening on two parts of the new gear, most of the materials came in so far. When he gets those done, I'll give 'em two more! Not sure if it'll be light, but it'll surely be built hell-for-stout, and functional as a hammer.

Bravo
Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 04:53:03 (ZULU)

Ref: 5.11 stuff

These garments have become so chic' and stylish with the shooting/military/police community that wearing them has become a target indicator. On more than one occasion I've "made" "plain cloths" cops just by their 5.11 style pants and vests.

Remember, camouflage is about blending in and remaining undetected. This applies on the street as well as in the field. If you want to run under the radar you may also wish to review those "neat" bumber stickers too. Along the same line you might consider a "Nature Conservancy", "World Wildlife Fund" and a "Hillary" sticker on your vehicle as a form of disguise.

But then again, what do I have to hide? I'm just a hobbyist.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Kansas City, MO, USA - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 12:53:34 (ZULU)

My "new" rifle.

A very rare and radical Tikka Target in 308win. Stock is aluminium with wooden shell. Massive steel action and mag. This is a pre Sako rifle made at the original Tikkakoski factory.

http://pub.jaktogfriluft.no/ImageArchive/Images/424/v01_B212CEF18C8E380B5BD202D45426B29B.jpg

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 13:50:24 (ZULU)

TorF: Good to see you post. Don't be a stranger. Cool-looking rig. How does it shoot?

For anyone who remembers the MVT conversation: I got far enough into the MVT book to get the idea. Senior management calls in a high-powered consultant who knocks the ball into the cheap seats as he has done 1000 straight times. If you give him another problem, he does it again, and again...

Every time he does it, the process makes you money. The crowd goes crazy.

And when you ask him how he does it, he'll tell you that he was using g-e-n-u-i-n-e MVT. The book's definition for MVT was, shall we say, a bit amorphous, so I compared the book's appendix to those of a couple of books on my shelf. I'm not going to blow the guy's livlihood, but I'm very familiar with the subject. Hit me offline if you want a reference or two.

CDC'
Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 15:34:23 (ZULU)

Guys Joe is less than 200 votes ahead!! We only have a few more days so let's get the votes so he wins!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 15:35:08 (ZULU)

>>>And Moe volunteers to be a chaperone! Gonna be interesting. Gonna be interesting. I’m betting there’s enough prune juice in Florida to keep him running ;-)<<<

Stan, I don't do prune juice, I'm only 58! But there's no shortage of it down here, that's fer sure!

You're just lucky I don't like fight'n "downhill" or I'd have to bitchslap ya for terrorizing the elderly! :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 17:02:34 (ZULU)

Kevin sir,

I don't think the average person realizes that 5.11s are a "target indicator", it's more the "overall effect". A gun guy might zero in on them. A criminal......this AO is relatively safe, but you never know I guess. Haven't had a problem yet.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 17:47:33 (ZULU)

Gents, playing catch up...

Moe, I'm 54 and if you smack Bravo, you'll have to smack me, as well. I'm a stately 5'3 1/4"! As to prune juice; Don't they serve that, in a glass and a little umbrella, for you Floridians?

Camo Country: OK, yours truely is old enough to remember the switch from O.D. sateens to woodland camo (slant pockets). Don't know if it was worth the switch. Still the original slant pocket models had a very high "cool factor". Have my desert cammies from DS/DS, flack vest cover, helmet cover, etc. Got them issued my last month "in country". Guys in the rear had them immediately, however. Same with desert boots. No big deal, after 28 days without a shower they (and you) all start to look the same. Probably smelled the same, as well. The new computer generated patterns seem to be dandy. Funny, the ruskies used that on thier "spetsnatz" camo jumpsuits way before we got the idea. Got mine when they first were imported. Princely $29.95. Cool, comfy, and they work. Still have/use mine. Coolest cammies? Vietnam tiger stripe pattern! Have those tucked away.

Guys who wear cammies as "civies". Ticks me off, as they haven't "earned" the right to wear them. Folks that hate the military, but think cammies are cool, gang bangers, you name it. Still wear mine, but only for hunting...;-)

.338 Lapua vs. .50: Ken, good points. Will stick with my .338 Lapua. It's paid for! Am installing a new AI twin chamber brake on mine. We'll see if that "softens" recoil a bit. Report back on that next week or two. Still, if Rick B. says; "it and a Jet suppresser may well be the ultimate SWS" I've got to sit up and take note.

Remington Barrels: Rebarreled several Remmies. Never had one without at least one tight/loose spot. Several had 3 or 4. How they shot as well as they did, I'll never know. Real eye opener was pulling the first barrel (a real chore) and discovering a white looking (pipe compound?)gunk all over the threads. Like to never got it cleaned up. Did not give me a warm/fuzzy as it was obviously there to take up poor tolerances in the machining. Can someone give me the come-ups for a remmie barrel at 18 FPS?

Blue Printing: Agree it's a wrong and misused term. "Trueing" I'll believe. All my remmies have been trued and then built. Blue printed, my ass.

Undude's take on shooting in the wind. A real operator's comment. Spent to much time on the range myself. I'd never have thought of it! Hmmm, train like you fight, fight like you train? Mia Culpa.

6.5 X 55: Bravo, dammit, you always got to stir the pot. Great cartridge. One of our better hi-power guys uses it in the Ackley Improved version and swears by it. Will stick with my 6.5 X .284 (or .308 for that matter).

Duman, Barbara Eden at 25? I CAN go there. Only if she's wearing the "I Dream of Gennie" outfit or less. There are a number of other babes that have made my short list, as well.

Feel left out. Have not had any off shore or stateside Nigerian lottery notices or offers of opportunity, lately. Knew I moved for a reason this last year!

Brass Prep: Sorry, I tend to be a bit anal about brass prep. My accuracy ammo alsways gets the flash holes uniformed/deburred, trimmed, and primer pockets cleaned, at a minimum. No neck turning. Sinclair Int'l sells all the neat tools needed. Their primer pocket uniformer is great to clean out old residue from the primer pockets. Makes them look and load like new. That said, my .308 brass is Lapua and 6.5 X .284 is Norma. Not much work needed there. Reloading dies are Redding Competition and I do not use the expander plug. Necks are expanded over a properly sized arbor. Runout for that set up is nada. Runs .001 to .005 usning the factory expander plug. Ammo shoots as well as any I've shot.

Catshooter, you may be right. I need a nap. Love these days off.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 18:41:53 (ZULU)

Geoff,

Its not that I have a big budget to spend,its that Im selling my drag racing car so I can afford it.So when I do sell it I will about 10k to spend.Thats why I just might build up a whole new rifle on a differnt action.It just doesnt feel right to rob the action out of a rifle that shoots good.But untill then Ill just shoot what I have.

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 19:50:23 (ZULU)

Kevin:

I'll take the bullet before I put a "Hillary" bumper sticker on my truck. I'll not go into what I think she should be stuck on....

Anyone have a name or number where I can get large lots of 7.62x39 blank ammo? We're chewing through it at a prodigious rate.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 19:57:36 (ZULU)

Just went to vote for Boris- the red-head is now back almost a thousand votes. Seems to have lost about 800 votes somewhere

Boris is up by a few hundred- but we can still keep the pressure on!

Doc Mac
Cradle of Naval Aviation, FL, - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 21:24:01 (ZULU)

Jon Kujawa

Recommend that you spend some time on a range and many of your questions would be answered by that experience. Hang out with that service rifle team you were talking about earlier. Most service rifle shooters I know are also into long range shooting and own bolt rifles.

What works - works, no need to reinvent the wheel several times a month.

Just my .02.

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 23:02:25 (ZULU)

Actually, given the number of people of all ages wearing pants with "cargo" pockets these days, I suspect that 5.11 pants are not so much of a target indicator. The vest, though, is a dead giveaway.

I tend to wear a fleece vest when the weather is cool, and a long-sleeved shirt over a T-shirt when it's warm. Hawaiian shirts are also good, although many are of such light weight that it's a good idea to tack a little weight to the hem on the strong side to keep them from blowing up in a breeze.

And then there is the school of thought that having knowledgeable people pick up such an indicator is not altogether a bad thing, in that the cops aren't going to bother you anyway, and the criminals may look for an easier target if they suspect that you're armed. It's certainly a question that can be debated, and the answer may well depend upon where one is.

Lindy
An Undisclosed Secure Location, U.S.A. - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 01:33:23 (ZULU)

I bought a 5.11 vest and tried it on. It is a nice piece of gear but too obvious for a civilian. I just put it on the emporium.

CDC'
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 02:22:44 (ZULU)

If you are super clean cut, have that 'engineer' look, possibly you've lived a military life for a time , folks refer to you as an ULTRA type "A" personality (perhaps not to your face)....

Let's just say that a pair of pants isn't the only thing that might give you up as a "combat effective" individual. Mannerisms develop over a lifetime...they are hard as hell to mask.

medicjim
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 02:31:52 (ZULU)

Sorry Bravo, the best I can do is to steer you in the direction of the cheapest supplier I can find. LOL If you do the reverse engineering thing, I'd be interested in a pair.

That's a very good point Jim. Today I had a guy ask me if I used to be a Navy SEAL. I said, "no sir, I've never been in the military, but I'll take that as a nice compliment"

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 05:54:19 (ZULU)

Indicators: A guy who knows 5.11 from Columbia at a glance has been trained somehow someway to notice that difference. Usually, he is on "your side" but not always, eh? It's like SOCOM guys. Long hair, sloppy civies, smokey bars--and you still know one when you see one (mostly). You get used to traits by living among them yourself, and in a sea of "normal" slouching--those traits can and will jump right out at ya. This visual cueing can be trained! Never underestimate your enemy.

In a crime prevention role--the "make" is beneficial. If you have CCW---you ought not want to put it to use. Avoidance is best, and better still if the opposition feels the same. That's my mind-set. I have better things to do than deal with all the fun of proving to 12 why I felt the need to defend myself from one. Being second guessed just pisses me off to no end. Best to avoid...

Along with that, should you be easily made, and still get into a shit-spot....somewhat trained folks WILL be responding soon. If they make you, all the better. If something says "operator" of any type to Joe Rookie Cop, he is that much less likely to come in weapons hot on your COM. That could be good too.

But there is another kind of shitbag out there. He would see your tags, and think "him first." That is the terrorist. Killing isn't a means to his end--it is the end for him. He would start with the biggest threat, and he would have some training on how to ID those threats. Worse case this clown--always.

For me, bearing (posture), attitude and verbal response---a "presense" can do the same thing as a badge, pants, or any "physical marker" worn. Except it has the advantage of being turned on or off---if you are aware of it, that is.

Ever seen a group of young college guys walk into a bar? How about a couple of SEALs or SF types? It is as obvious a difference as any you'll ever find.

Until i figured that out for myself---it led to alot of unsolicited bar fights. Heheh. At first, it was weird as hell for me...WTF? But, the old guys explained it patiently...basically, "don't try to dominate your battlespace kid..." Turn the pride off, and accept the conditions you find yourself in at a glance. There is advantage in stealth, as well as being "on full alert" along the back wall...

The bottom line (if there is one--which I doubt)--is to look any part you wish---as long as you fully understand that the message you send in either case is being received, and you will not always know who received it. But do not get complacent if your costume does some of the work for ya either; sooner or later someone will be too dense or have a devil may care attitude and try ya...and that leads to always, always be aware of everything when outside of your fort.

Over time, being tagged as a "somebody" will place you in a subtle little bubble. Most people will respond to the cues, and life will be all nice and safe for long periods of time. But, the thing is, if a guy who is tagged gets compacent, he is going down hard. Cos his antagonists will be his equals or better---they will respond tto the same cues...only they have the edge, because they think you are their equals or better....and bad guys get to initiate.

That settles it for me. I'm a slob, or a suit...depending on my environment. I just try to blend in. Once in a while, I will square my shoulders and straighten my back, begin a systematic scan, roll my arms slightly forward, unbutton the bottom of the jacket...because I made a guy, and he gave me the cues. I've sent more than one shitbag on a new path doing that in NY and Boston, years ago. In small town USA--it is usually just gangs of punks wanting me to buy beer or cigarettes, but the results are still the same. I turn on my "charm" and I do not have to speak to these miscreants.

This is parallel to my posts in 2004 about the gunners who slouch at the bottom edge of the turret vs. the guy who is on top of his gun moving it from potential target to the next. The timid looking guys often took hits--and mostly it was CQB range ambushes (driveby or stacked on the shoulders of the road--urban cover is in-your face). Wrong attitude portrayed to the wrong culture. In later 2005, we finally started training the domination approach.

You are playing chess. You know what you want to do, but to do it, you gotta know as much about your opponent as you can. Some of what you do is for the win, some is to make him help you win. Either appraoch is good, as long as you know what "they" are thinking at all times.

Boris
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 06:51:04 (ZULU)

Biz partner and I dress in jacket and tie.

On lunch or after work sometimes go to gun stores.

Several times we have raised the brow of the gun shop owner thinking that we were BATF.

One time we were with a clerk behind the counter looking at some collector pieces and the owner walks in from being out at lunch. Scared the crap out of him. Later he told us he was thinking "Guys with ties, behind the counter, I'm fucked."

Another time getting a shoe shine, the girl doing the shine took us for cops and couldn't be convinced otherwise.

Don't know if I should take it as a compliment or just that I look like an uptight hard-ass.

I guess this goes to the arguement that it does not have to be 5.11s that do it.

LTChip
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 06:54:57 (ZULU)

Following scenario is a true story: Some old slob sitting down, showing a buddy a Bagwellized Western Bowie while some Captain Kung Fu struts around doing his best Steven Seagall routine and confidently "dominating his battle space".

The old slob grew up in a barrio and is an ex infantry paratrooper.

Some perfectly ordinary-looking people look at tough-guys like leopards look at cattle.

CDC'
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 13:41:57 (ZULU)

Well, I prefer to dominate my battlespace - I just prefer to do it from 600 yards with a sniper rifle. As Clint Smith, among others, has noted, proximity tends to negate skill. :D

Lindy
An Undisclosed Secure Location, U.S.A. - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 13:57:31 (ZULU)

"Cease to exist" is what my instructer told me a long time ago.

The ability to move into a room so that the occupants, if they see you it doesn't register with them. You become a part of the room, the background clutter.

Try it. go into a resturant pick a table with dirty dishes and see how long you can set there before the waitress asks you if you need anything else.

I used to piss off my boss. I would go into his office and stand maybe 4-5 minutes then he would finally notice me and and it would startle him. I enjoyed it!!

No indicators

However wearing a clown suit at a nudist gethering gives out all the indicators you would ever need.

bomac
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 14:13:26 (ZULU)

Ten reasons why Iran should be skittish. This is no joke. Click my name.

bomac: Indians do that. Turn around in camp and one is just standing there.

CDC'
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 15:41:23 (ZULU)

Tony Burkes,

I was once mistaken for being military. In college. I used to look like a Navy SEAL. Now I just look like a seal.

Guys, I wish y'all wouldn't edit your messages, because the original character and history of the message is lost. Like "Yer Sister's Ass" and medicjim's "BWAHAHAHAHA" add some flavor to the roster.

My $0.02.

Duman

Duman
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 16:31:01 (ZULU)

Gents,

Target Indicators: I've been pegged for being a cop more than once. That's too bad 'cuz the now I wear a badge. These days just being clean cut seems to be an indicator to the bad guys. Been so long since I wore a tie I probably forgot how!

Oregon yuppies do the "brown baggie" thing. Comfy, causal, and a great way to conceal a weapon. Light vests are the order of the day. My daily wardrobe (other than uniform) is jeans, shirt, casual shoes, a vest, and /or jacket. Works for me. On the other hand go into the bad guys turf and I'll stick out like a sore thumb. Just don't look scruffy enough.

Size and demeanor have a lot to do with how you "blend". I'm 5'4"(on a good day) and folks tend to discount you because of size. That helps. On the other hand my military posture and bearing are a detriment. My best advice is to stay out of the bad guys turf unless you have a reason to be there. Play hero if you want. Just remember how many of them have been buried.

Nice day. A range day. Time to put on my "non-descript" clothing and strap on my pistol.

Knives: Just upgunned from my old Spyderco to an Emerson Commander. BIG difference. Loved the Syderco because of the light weight, but the Emerson is so much better I'll live with the difference.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 16:48:47 (ZULU)

OMG, funny stuff. I moved into a different job now, so I don't have to have the "clean cut" look anymore. I was wearing my hair at around 1/2", now I'm growing my hair back out. I think I'll do the off the collar, moppy, "British rock star" look next. Ha.

I think "Boris" has a funny story about the "American rock star" look. :-)

At 6'2" and 200, it can be hard to blend in. Step one however is to just be quiet. Many can't begin to understand that one.

Despite the "common" perception, some of the toughest SOB's I ever met were short little bantam roosters with BIG frigging attitude.

Shooting the box.....scope cant too small to see by looking at the scope, will show up when you shoot a box to check your adjustments, correct?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 17:22:07 (ZULU)

Back by popular request...

My "Yer Sister's Ass" car sign

Doug

doug sickels
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 19:12:29 (ZULU)

Tor, good to see you again! Don’t be a stranger!

5.11: part of the reason they’re chic is because the feebs have declared that they’re approved field uniform. I want no part of someone else’s fight, so no thanks on them. Due to that, and the thickness. Personally, I’ve got no reason for a uniform. Camo is a different matter entirely, as I’d take every opportunity to “not be there” that I could in any difficult situation. Like Patron Joe said, avoidance is best, and I try to have that be my middle name, in all situations. But in regards to what Geoff brought up….. bad times. The worst time I believe that’ll happen (that I’ll be involved in) would be a Katrina style rerun. I’ve got no worries for the first month or so, as far as myself and mine go, in most all regards. My biggest concern would be the highway patrol from the PRK coming to disarm me, as they did the victims in Nawlens. Note, I didn’t say the NGs, as they weren’t the offending party from all I can find. Camo would, IMO, help me “not be there” when some folks come calling. That’s one of the benefits I see from the multicam, it doesn’t look like anything anyone else has, and therefore I shouldn’t be mistaken for anything I’m not.

Now as to normal social interactions, that’s a completely different animal. Understand though, that I live in literally (if you can interpret these things from voting patterns) the most republican (note I didn’t say conservative) state in the union. Around my AO, there were rumors about satanic rituals being held in a field once a month at midnight. Turns out it was slightly worse, the three democrats in the county having their monthly party planning meeting. A ‘hillary’ sticker with local plates would be enough to have my truck keyed, a tire slashed, and more than likely a bit of spray paint. No thanks. I’m also guilty of “broadcasting”. Most of the year, I’ve got a birdhunters vest on to cover the Glock. It’s got a dozen slugs and a half dozen rounds of buckshot in the loops, as the weight keeps the wind from “blowing my cover”. In an area known for hunting (the gradeschool kids are even given opening day off from school as “harvest holiday”), I draw no second glances. The M14 belt buckle probably doesn’t help much either. On the other hand, it’s surprising to find out just how many folks I run into that have and use their CCW permits as well. Is broadcasting normally bad? I’m not convinced in a daily situation that it is. I am convinced however that it’s stupid if situational awareness isn’t kept up to the task. It’s a trade I’m willing to make, although I often wonder if my mostly continuous scanning doesn’t make people wonder as well.

One of the guys here had a reason to use his CCW. A rather large Samoan fellow (not making a statement about the race, just that most folks know just how big those fellows get!) decided he’d help himself to some money, forcefully. The local was carrying a PPK. He said that looking down the slide at the head of said thief, he felt like he had scarcely a 22, and vowed to never carry something “ballistically tiny” again. That’s the reason for the vest, I’ve been a big believer in full sized service type autos for a LONG time. Since wardrobe is governed by what you’re wanting to conceal…..

Oh, and I’ve still got a couple pairs of the old picklesuit pants as well ;-) Warmer than I prefer, but the fact I’ve still got a couple pair just goes to show how long they wear.

Tony, no worries on the reverse-engineered pattern, if I can get it. You’ll just have to add 4” to the inseam ;-) E-mail from them said the stuff shipped yesterday. No pants for at least 2 weeks though.

Bravo
Friday, February 24, 2006, at 19:13:15 (ZULU)

Looking at a potential concealed carry piece.

Right now, it's a tossup between a Taurus Mellinium Pro 145 and a Kahr KP4543. Both are subcompact .45's. I have a full size 1911 and a 45 USP when larger weaponry is allowed.

What are your thoughts? Any experience with them or related stuff?

Thanks

Karl

kdahm
Damn Hot, Tx, USA - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 22:06:42 (ZULU)

5.11, well as has already been stated GREAT PANTS! When I went back to work in the Emergency Room had worn "paramedica pants" for their good fit, wear and LOTS of pockets for "stuff". Since "discovering" the 5.11 I've worn them at work and a couple of pair for "every day" wear. Do everything the "paramedic pants" did and even more comfortable.

If you haven't been to their web site resently they are coming out with Denim "tactical" pants that look like regular jeans with hidden pockets for "stuff" inside the waistband. According to the site they may not be available yet but I've e-mailed them to see when they will be. If you're interested I can let you know when they are.

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 22:12:03 (ZULU)

Geoff: if you want a haircut which won't make people think you're a cop, grow a mullet. Of couse, that might make them think you're stupid instead... :D

Lindy
An Undisclosed Secure Location, U.S.A. - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 23:14:47 (ZULU)

Re: 5.11

Haven't owned anything by 5.11 until recently when I acquired a couple of pair of their HRT boots. Most comfortable (non-insulated) boot I've ever worn. Far better than the Danner GTX's, IMHO.

Check this out.

(Click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 23:25:29 (ZULU)

Lindy.....I seriously don't really put a whole lot of thought into what people may or may not judge as far as appearance goes. I just try to keep my situational awareness up as best I can, depending on the circumstances. I can adopt a lot of different "looks" in a short time. And if stupid is as stupid does, then I must be stupid, 'cuz I've sure done some stupid things in my 35 years!! :-P Thankfully, the "incidents" seem to be getting further and further apart.....

Mullet? No way!!!!!! I had one for about a year as a teenager. And yes, it hurts to admit it. And no red 70's or 80's vintage Camaro or Firebird for me either!!! ROFL...Now if Dodge actually builds the new Challenger......:-)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 23:30:47 (ZULU)

"Has anyone seen Art Hammer shoot?"

>>>hell no! do you think he's got any time too shoot? he's got, those 47 Dillon’s and umpteen Rocks to press. he's prob. got huge fore-arms.

blueprinting:

>>>how come when they "blueprint" somethin' you never get a copy of the print? what a scam.

Leupold clone:

"mark 4 M3 Mildot Cross Scope Leupold Replica M1"

"The Chinee' are doing some damage to the big companies"

>>>I’m sure its nice but does it hold up after 1000rds+ of recoil? How about bumps, doh’s!, dirt?. Does it have plastic turret gears? What about hot/cold?

One of the biggest problems with Chinese, reproductions is not in what is looks like but in the science. The metallurgy, temper, thickness. A lot of there 1911 copies are same on the ‘mic’ but are almost pot-metal.

"That’s why I directed the anal part toward your direction. Thought a little fececious statement about flash holes would bring ya out "

>>>Wow, what a statement, and it was said to 'lito. not from 'Lito, to Sharon! ;)

"Best use of a Remmy barrel is"

>>>weld on apposing 'u' bolts and dip in liq. plastic. stick it on your steering wheel. makes an anti-theft device, and it only cost $7 to make. $1.50 for the barrel $2 ea for the u-bolts, $1.00 for the ‘tuck and roll’ weld job, and .50c for the plastic!

CDC:

"JK and Whoever: Too much is made of the rifle. Given any reasonably good one, almost all of the variability in the rifle/shooter system is in the shooter. Get your rig properly tweaked and torqued then go shoot the rifle you have. Wear out the barrel practicing. As you need new components, replace the ones you have."

>>>Yeah what he said!!

Kevin:

"a "Hillary" sticker on your vehicle "

>>>maybe in KC, but out here, That’s more target than blending in!

"Guys Joe is less than 200 votes ahead!!"

>>>I’m voting as fast as I can!! bout three times a day!

>>>its not the 5.11's it’s the hair cut's!

Jim B.
Glendale, AZ., You cant win the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless. - Friday, February 24, 2006, at 23:53:07 (ZULU)

I frequently wear 5.11's in Africa to hunt, but rarely here in the States. I don't look like LE, not even undercover. Wearing 5.11's is too much of an indicator. Sitting in a Mickey Dees for lunch one day with a buddy (in PD uniform), he points to a guy in line and says "gun." It's an old game between us, pointing out people with firearms, yet I digress. I asked him how he knew, he pointed out the khaki 5.11 tactical shorts (never understood what is so tactical about shorts).

I carry 95% of the time I am away from home. Never carry when going to the airport or the bar (combined, they make up the 5%). It is really hard for me to blend in anywhere at 6'4" and 300lbs. Scruffy hair, scruffy beard. I fit right in with many bikeresque crowds as well as many rednecks (important when you live in the South and drive a pickup). I recently switched to a Glock23 in a high ride holster, so now I just wear longer scruffy tshirts with my blue jeans as opposed to when I wore a 1911 in an ITP rig in the small of my back.

I learned LONG ago that being a large former Marine (with the requisite squared away appearance, upright bearing and posture, and that don't fuck with me look in my eye made me a target for notice by wannabe badasses, cops and BG's. I found myself looking down the barrel of a gun during a convenience store robbery a long time ago. I guess the bad guy felt I was an imenent threat. Not comfortable for the clerk, definitely not comfortable for me. I can tell you first hand that it sucks.

If you want to blend in Florida, look like a construction weenie. You can get away with anything. Work boots, scruffy clothes and a generally unkempt appearance are second nature in this most construction laden environment. Construction workers are prevalent in every neighborhood of nearly every town in Florida. You want to blend into an environment pick out the least noticable guy in the crowd and be him. Rich folk don't look twice at us and bg's figure your just another schmuck.

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 00:28:44 (ZULU)

Duman,

Whenever I post on the roster, I take a second look with the following things in mind...

#1 - many of the folks here deserve respect... a few may demand it.

#2 - I try to never write anything on the net that I wouldn't say to folks in person.

Taunting a bunch of large, veteran ex-military types that gravitate to a sniper sight seemed imprudent in retrospect....if they think they blend in with "FBI" wacker pants, a 'concealed carry' vest, bulging arms crossed in utter disgust... and maybe a 'high and tight' at age 50, who am I to argue?

BWAHAHAHA!

medicjim
Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 02:18:07 (ZULU)

>>>Moe, I'm 54 and if you smack Bravo, you'll have to smack me, as well. I'm a stately 5'3 1/4"! As to prune juice; Don't they serve that, in a glass and a little umbrella, for you Floridians?<<<

Absolutely! It’s the drink of choice when sitting on the veranda.

But no way am I going to wage a two front downhill offensive. Let’s all go sit on the veranda instead and enjoy our Prune Delights!

>>>It is really hard for me to blend in anywhere at 6'4" and 300lbs.

If you want to blend in Florida, look like a construction weenie...Construction workers are prevalent in every neighborhood of nearly every town in Florida.<<<

Robert, think you could pass as a 6’4” 300# Hispanic construction worker? Yeah, we’d hardly give ya a second look down here! HA!

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 03:07:25 (ZULU)

JR...

>"Have you noticed the new line of CDL's are a bit tighter than the older versions?? We've had to buy in some new rifles to tear them down, and I must say, the bolt fit seems tighter, the lines are cleaner, much better action than the older 700's....Have Remmy taken note?"<

Damn! Some timing JR. I have been beatin' up on Remington for about 8 or 10 years.

I was a Remington wholesaler back in Elias' days ;)) and I loved the guns - I have 7 40X's and 11 of them Remington puppies all together.

But in the early 90's, the quality started going down - barrels were piss-poor, stock fit was poor, metal finish was poor, (you fill in the rest), and they all had 9+ pound triggers.

The last new Remington I bought was a 700 Classic in .221 Fireball about 4 years ago, and I swore that was going to be my last Remington.

The barrel had to be replaced (and Rem wouldn't do it), there were belt sander marks still on the action that hadn't been polished out... the list was long.

Plus there appeared that POS firing pin lock thingie that required a key to put into the bolt shroud to unlock the rifle - I loved their shotguns, but I was done with Remington rifles... for good!

That was until that mangy ol' 'yote Bate talked me into looking at the .204 cartridge. Makes less noise than a .223, shoots flat like a .22 Swift, and is dead nutz accurate. Did some research in the web, and everyone says the same thing.

So, of what was available, I bit the bullet (that's a pun, son ;) and ordered a Remingtom XR-100... and prayed!

I picked it up yesterday, and whatta a dream. The action and all metal work is flawless, the finish is flawless, the barrel is beautiful... the trigger (out of the box) is less than 2 pounds... I mean... LESS THAN TWO POUNDS - from Remington??? Where are the lawyers??

The stock is a black and grey laminated thumbhole, and the finish is flawless. The fitting to the stock is great - when you look at the front of the stock/barrel, the space around the free floating barrel is uniform all the way around - most 'smiths don't do that when they glass bed a rifle.

And that shitty key-lock on the bolt - GONE.

I'm waitin' on the bases and I have a 10x MK4-M3 and a blank cam, with no home - until now.

Do I like it???

:)))

Crows, yo' ass is mine!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 11:41:11 (ZULU)

Bought a new G17 w/ nite sites on Monday as a Duty pistol. It was shootin all over the place. Last nite my son ask "why does the rear site slide back and forth like this?" Damn thing wasn't staked or even a snug fit. I almost pushed it out with my thumb. I took it out and staked the underside of it and drove it back in. Centered it with my good eye and fired another box of ammo. It still shoots a little left. Approx. 1" or so at 15 yds. Is that me or should the sites be offset a little based on left/right hand preference? Dept. qualifications are this morning, so I'm gonna shoot it the way it is for now.

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 12:18:53 (ZULU)

Damn.......just saw two yotes in the field behind my house. I thought that I had heard them for the past couple of weeks but this morning they just come trotting out like they didn't give a crap. I've got to talk the guy that owns the land to let me take them bastages out. It won't be long before the bambis are born and they won't have a chance. Friggin yotes are everywhere around here now. Thought about putting the dog up, make an opening in the fence and baiting them into some connibears. Where's Yotebait when you need him?

Might actually get some range time in today. Gonna try my 300 mag loads to see what happens. 190's on top of 72.7 RE22 might do the trick.

Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 12:37:01 (ZULU)

I bought a Taurus(sp) for CCW. The DAO trigger was not TOO horrendous with the mag empty, BUT after I loaded the mag to shoot it, the trigger pull went to about a zillion lbs. I unloaded (sold) it, bought a Kahr and LOVE IT... Wife took it so I now carry a Glock 27 - both in .40 S&W. Not too bad.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 14:35:30 (ZULU)

5.11 vest users: I've got a large green Royal Robbins 5.11 vest in perfect condition on the emporium at a good price.

Kittyblaster: Call me a sentimental old softie, but that kind of love story still brings a tear to my eye.

CDC'
Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 15:17:19 (ZULU)

re: G17 rear sight positioning

In my experience, the rear sight on the G17 has to be offset to the right some if you want point of aim/point of impact to coincide.

If you center the rear sight the point of impact will be off to the left. I shoot right-handed.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 17:22:43 (ZULU)

Well stye is gone and have spent a very frustrating week with staff poges that don't seem to understand. Nothing like spending several days on the phone getting a matrix made up and sending it forward with COAs. Then sending followup messages saying that a decision is required as soon as possible. All of this began early to mid Janurary. Now we start receiving urgent messages asking us if we knew that the above mentioned problem was in fact a problem and what did we plan to do about it? It is the same as if we had not done a frigging thing for the last month and these loons are basically calling us idiots for not recognizing this problem sooner. Just say bad week.

Wind - I differ with Mike, I never shoot in a boil unless, a. there is no wind, or b. I have to. Reason is that a boil is usually a lie and it is the wind telling you that it is about to fishtail to another direction. Me I will stalk to position that brings the wind into a constant direct, as in left to right, and then all I have to worry about is if it is going to be negated by the factor of .2 or .3. At that point a 20 mph wind is either a 4 mph or a 6 mph and I will shot 5 mph anyway and let the wind blow th eshot from one side fo the heart to the other. :)

5.11 - Have been wearing them for crap I do not know how many years but sufice to say they were Royal Robins back then. I like them for here in the US and the guys should have noted my wearing them at the shot show. Are they a target indicator yes, just as the big assed watches, and every other thing that dumb assed Americans do overseas and yes that includes me. :)

50 or .338 - Depends on what I want to do and if I have to travel far on foot. Teh .338 will work for 95% of anythign that 50 will do and it weights a butt load less. I can run with it and carry it fully loaded and at the ready. The 50, nope not happening unless you are moving from your vehicle to a FFP within the 100 meter area. Teh 50 is way over rated and will not do what is required. However, shooting at personnel at unknown ranges past 1400 meters is a crap shoot anyway. :) As far as ammo, look to the next year and you will se ammo that will top the 50 in the 338 falvor. My choice of calibers is easy, 5.56 for some close urban work, 7.62 for most other sniping and the .338 for when I may have to go long or punch through some stuff. The .50 I would leave at home and only use when forced to. Hell I can take a Javlin or a Recoiless, or even a 60 mm mortar for the same weight and still do much more damage at ranges further than the 50.

WEll going to take a break and unload groceries fo rhte old lady before she refuses to feed me next meal. :)

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 18:22:12 (ZULU)

On wind shooting. Rick I dont think we differ at all. I prefer a nice 5mph constant so no damm mirage problem, or change positions nad have wind at back or front. With Mirage Boil you get a feaking false target that is all over the place. In perfect world avoid mirage boil problem, but when you are stuck and have to return fire, well do what best you can. I like James thoughst on this the best "Close and kill"

The train like you fight, fight like you train quote is just my take off on the old "Train hard fight easy"

The one I came up with and you Al. guys stole. LOL is " Dope it. Dial It Dump It" Did not even give me a honorable mention on the T shirt.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Saturday, February 25, 2006, at 23:23:43 (ZULU)

Glock sights: Dick Heinie makes a sight replacement for the Glock with the notch offset .005 inch to the left, to compensate for the tendency of them to shoot slightly to the right with a rear sight which is centered in the notch. That gives you, he says, the correct offset, while still allowing the sight to be visually centered in the notch.

For what it's worth, both my 19 and 23 shoot pretty much to point of impact with the replacement night sights I put on visually centered. At the ranges any pistol is likely to be used at, I suspect it's not going to make much difference anyway.

It seems to me that an appropriate thing to do is to test each pistol, and adjust the sights as necessary to hit the desired point of impact.

Lindy
An Undisclosed Secure Location, U.S.A. - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 00:10:46 (ZULU)

Brass question. I bought a "bunch" (something like 700+) of Lake City Match headstamped '89 to '91 7.62X51 brass. The thing that I've never seen before is all of that I've randomly looked at has a knurled ring around it about 1/8" above the extractor groove. I've run a few through the die, and they seem to be a bit "tougher" to full-length size than other (LC '72) military match that I've used...not impossible (I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax), but noticable.

Anyone know what the knurling is all about, and is there anything I should be concerned about?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve
Butte, MT, USofA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 03:03:46 (ZULU)

Gents and Sharon,

I've used the Heinie steel sights on several Glocks and think they are exceptional. Very clean sight picture and easy installation. Heck, even I could do the installation! Way better than seeing Glock front sights worn crooked from practice. You need steel if your going to use the pistol heavily.

Shooting in mirage. I hate it, but have to for Hi-power. Tactically speaking there are a work arounds it sounds like. Think Rick and Mike hit it on the head. Agree with Rick that boil is god's way of showing a changing condition. Our local ranges get some mirage, but not bad. Saw it so bad in MCB 29 Palms that you couldn't see from the 1,000 yard line worth a hoot. There, it's heat rising and some wind. Nasty, to say the least.

Undude, my apologies to you. I have used your "dope it, dial it, dump it" on several occations and didn't give proper credit to you. Mia Culpa. I will in the future with your permission. Kind of boils all the BS down to "just do it". By the way, didn't put it on no T-shirts...

Would be neat to see a shirt with Bruce Robinson's Mil-Dot License plate pattern and your "dope it, dial it, dump it" underneath. Way cool! You could offer them along with your slings, Mike. Of course the front could have something like ".308 Rules" or somesuch...;-)

Mike, so many have contributed so much to this forum. That makes it very special. You, Rick B., 'lito, Bravo, Bruce, CDC, and others. Makes me proud to be a part of this forum, in some small way.

Rick, .50 vs. .338. Still have to agree with you based on my limited experience. I'll stick with the .338 Lapua. Let me know what specialty ammo or bullets become available. Anybody try another .338 bullet besides Lapua Scenar 250 gr. and 300 gr. SMK's? Have to check and see who else is producing. Personally, I'll start using a .50 when someone issues me a native bearer to carry the darn thing!

Concealed Carry. With me it's most of the time. More and more we are finding ourselves targeted. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt or killed by gangs. Especially, when we have groups like MS-13, etc. moving into our country.

Mullets? HATE the damn things. If someone wants their face to look like the ass end of an animal that's a good way to do it! Clean shaven is the way to go...

All for now. Have to go find my "elven stealth cloak" I misplaced...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 03:26:44 (ZULU)

Badger Base on Ebay listed at $10.00 #7222066531 for a winchester SA

This is not mine FYI

bomac
Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 04:28:07 (ZULU)

CDC and Bravo: Thanks, I'll try to be here on a regular basis :-) I got a Tor JR 3 months ago so triggertime is down..

I have not tried the Tikka yet. It is 20 years old and I think the barrel is gone. I bought it for silly money. When they were new they shot like the best custom guns. I'm going to rebarrel it. Probably with a Heym hammerforged matchbarrel.

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 08:57:18 (ZULU)

RE: reloading for the AR

So, I've read the Fulton Armory site and heard all the bad storied about KBing AR's from reloads. I know atleast some of you reload for your mouse guns. Where exactly does the problem lie?

My understanding is that the issue is with out of battery ignition. So is this because some people are shooting unresized brass in tight chambers? What are the issues and concerns?

I have a bunch of LC brass that needs a new use. I've been reloading .308 for a while, but don't have a lot of experience loading rifle ammo.

Any thoughts or comments would help.

Steve

Steve Burris
NOVA , NOVA, USA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 13:07:13 (ZULU)

Steve - re: reloading for semi-autos

(1) Ensure the brass is resized enough to properly headspace.

I use a gage to set up my dies, and to verify each case headspaces correctly. "Wilson" brand is what I use. Available from Sinclair Int'l and others.

(2) Ensure no high primers. They should all be slightly below flush. Visual or mechanical inspection.

(3) Use a hard enough primer. Some sources claim that only the CCI mil-spec primers are hard enough. Others are satisfied with the Winchester rifle primers. I'm personally using Winchester Small Rifle for .223 and Large Rifle for the Garand in .30-06.

As a general note (not specific to semi-autos), if you are reloading brass with crimped primers, you're going to have to remove the crimp so that you can properly seat primers into the pockets. Thera are at least 3 tools for this.

Mil-spec ammunition has swaged primer pockets, so you may find that the LC brass fall into that category. Winchester "white-box" which is often overruns from military contracts can have crimped primers too.

(1) Dillon Super-Swage 600. Separate tool that can be set up for all variants of primer pockets. Needs to be mounted on a bench or a block of wood. It swages (displaces) the crimp metal back into place reforming the primer pocket into the ideal shape for reloading.

(2) Press-mounted swage punch. Similar in effect to the Dillon, but different deployment. Since it is just an add-on to an existing press, much cheaper than the Dillon.

(3) Chamfering tools - cuts away the metal overhanging the primer pocket from the crimp.

I would recommend a swage over a chamfering tool, simply because the idea that you're leaving behind more metal and work-hardening the primer pocket sounds like a better end result.

You only have to swage the brass primer pocket once in it's lifetime, since you aren't crimping the primer again with any normal handloading setup.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 13:47:36 (ZULU)

The lead is narrowing, keep voting for Boris/Joe!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 13:59:49 (ZULU)

Funny vid. Click my name!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks, - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 14:41:21 (ZULU)

The snow is receeding to reveal a terrible vole infestation. I never really liked my Beeman R7 but it will do. The magpies eat the evidence and they're welcome to it.

"Islamophobia" is now supposed to match "racism" for trumping any opponent. Well, bullshit.

From Mark Steyn:

"... radical young Muslim men are changing the realities of daily life for Jews and gays and women in Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Oslo and beyond. If you don't care for the Yids, big deal; look out for yourself. The Jews are playing their traditional role of the canaries in history's coal mine."

...

"Something very remarkable is happening around the globe and, if you want the short version, a Muslim demonstrator in Toronto the other day put it very well:

""We won't stop the protests until the world obeys Islamic law."

...

The I'd-like-to-teach-the-world-to-sing-in-perfect-harmonee crowd have always spoken favorably of one-worldism. From the op-ed pages of Jutland newspapers to les banlieues of Paris, the Pan-Islamists are getting on with it."

CDC'
Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 15:14:12 (ZULU)

Re: 5.11

If you like these pants but are concerned about being flagged as a white hat, look at a pair of Carhart B11 work pants (B11 <--- looks alot like 511 eh?) I wear these pants every working day, usually not the same pair. They even make a substitute for your tactical shorts. The canvas is a few oz.s heavier than the 5.11 too. They take a real beating and you'll blend in anywhere in the USA looking like just another tradesman AKA contruction weenie.

Anyone here have any experience designing/building a fully contained (ie. indoor, no danger area) pistol range. I'am in the planning stages of building a new house and Iam researching the cost and feasability of building an underground pistol range attached to (not inside)the full basement. I'd guess the odds are this won't ever happen but I've got a bug in my head now if ya know what I mean. Why underground? Ive got the equipment to do the digging myself but more to the point, the property is located in an increasingly suburban area so noise and safety are major hurdles. Please respond by e-mail to paul@njlandscaping.com . I don't always catch up with the roster these days.

Paul Martoccia
NJ, - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 15:55:47 (ZULU)

Travis - That is sympothetic resonance and can hapen when landing with older helicopters. Once it starts all you can do is pray for hte best. As you can see even when shut down the "shimmy shimmy" continues until total failure. My guess is that they were doing a test run up and got a bounce on one of the tires, that set up the resonance. The oler helicopters with tires were really prone to this if landing on one tire and then bouncing to another.

Steve - Can't remember why that knurling was there but it was only on the M852, 168 gr, National Match ammo. It should not be a problem. I have shot tons of it without incident. Check the pocket for swagging, I am not sure if they swagged that round but all military brass is swagged in the primer pocket so that the primers will not loosen under full auto conditions. It has been a while since I have reloaded that brass so do not remember is that round is or not.

Mike - We agree on almost everything and my wording came out wrong with that post. It has been a pissy week and I am not editing worth a dam. I believe we discussed that very subject at Storm Mountain many moons ago. I always give you credit on your saying bro. It is true, never confuse a shot with facts that just don't matter and your saying says that suculently.

Wes - Have seen some the boys trying to carry that beast (50 Barrett) in the woods. Fien for about the first 5 clicks then it kicks their a**. :)

There is a 50 that goes on top of hte M16 lower receiver. Saw it at the shotr show. Anyone ever play with the thing. I am curious as we are looking into it and I need any feed back I can get.

Hold hard guys and stay safe.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 15:57:40 (ZULU)

Steve from MT; Knurled ring is used on blank ammo, but blank 308 ammo has a sort of false bullet extension on it -to make it feed thru a mag or belt. I 'think' I recall seeing that knurling on some match ammo many years ago. Don't know what it's for tho. It would seem to me that the knurling would weaken the case tho. I'd be a little leary of using that stuff.

Just bought a Remmy R3 recoil pad for my 870. Wow, this thing sure helps, not as good as a recoil reduction thingie but way better than the standard pad. Checked out Rem. web site, looks like they are now making a 98 mauser, calling it a Model 798...

Joe Sinclair
Blitzburgh, Taxsylvania, Steeler Nation - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 16:18:06 (ZULU)

The knurling was on the older M852 match ammo, doesn't really effect the brass, still goes about 4 reloads in a gas gun. It was supposed to differentiate, by feel, the good smooth cased stuff for shooting people, from the "evil" hollowpoint stuff for shooting targets. The JAG declared that it's all good to shoot the savages with, and now they don't bother. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 18:24:31 (ZULU)

Test

Terry Hoover
Kansas City, Kansas, USA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 20:59:30 (ZULU)

Paul M,

Got interested in the same thing. Could possibly use attached range as a heat pump resevoir for cooling the house during the summer and heating during the winter. My fantasy/concept was to dig a 6' wide, 100 yd ditch/tunnel, about 7' deep. lots of work, but if you have your own equip. what the heck. (Could possibly use large dia. cement pipe if you could find some cheap that were factory rejects?) That way I could put a false floor with pallets to store extra supplies, and be able to walk down and fix the pulley for the target if I had to(could even use an electric pulley). Place a large slow fan on a hinge over the tunnel entry for the heat exchange. Also could be hidden behind a bookshelf or false wall for safe room or shelter. Would be tempted to build one of those non attachable 55 gal. drum suppressors just inside the door with a benchrest. Expensive fantasy, hee hee. Anyone else want to add some fantasy ideas?

S/F

Terry

Terry Hoover
Kansas City, Kansas, USA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 21:06:05 (ZULU)

Steve

Ken is correct about the knurling. Picked up thousands of cases during Highpower matches after the service teams at Quantico, when the M14 was still being used. Also, CMP sold a butt load of the stuff to shooters and clubs years ago. The primers pockets are not crimped on most (at least all that I have seen) match ammo.

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 21:39:48 (ZULU)

Rod--

Thanks forthe info.

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 21:56:23 (ZULU)

Thanks guys for all the feedback on the knurled brass. Once it was pointed out that it was used for the 168g. Match, then it all made sense...ability to differentiate the bullet wt. loaded by the brass. The knurling is very shallow, so I wasn't worried (too much) about head seperations. And I've never run across Match military brass that had crimped primers...going clear back to the early '60's and LC '06 match, and same for mil 45 ACP match brass.

This place is a weatlth of info...ask and ye shall receive!

I use the brass in a DPMS LR 308 in which I installed an ABS carbon-fiber wrapped barrel (20"). Commonly shoots less than .75MOA and is "old-man" portable (vis-a-vis the 338 Lap v. 50 discussion).

Holdin' hard in Montana.

Steve

Steve
Butte, MT, US0fA - Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 22:38:23 (ZULU)

Big money dreams...? A house built on the side of a hill near the top with a log cabin false front and bullet proof windows. The house would extend back into the hill side. There would be a 6' pipe, 100 yds (or longer) for underground shooting/ammo testing. The far end of the pipe would have a trap door that opens up on the 'other' side of the hill top.

Boris only has about a 300 vote lead. Let's push him over the top! The end is near...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, February 27, 2006, at 01:51:48 (ZULU)

Don't forget about airborne lead. You need a good ventilation system. I always thought a 25 yard 3 lane underground range would be very cool.............

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, February 27, 2006, at 03:02:30 (ZULU)

Steve,

Get a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair Intl. After you swage the pocket, use the uniformer for a proper depth pocket. All the primers will seat below flush very nicely if used judiciously.

Works great. I have the full set and even use them to clean the pockets after the first time thru the piece.

Think I learned that from Kitty-Whacker.

Semper-Fi!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Monday, February 27, 2006, at 03:53:21 (ZULU)

Steve,

Get a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair Intl. After you swage the pocket, use the uniformer for a proper depth pocket. All the primers will seat below flush very nicely if used judiciously.

Works great. I have the full set and even use them to clean the pockets after the first time thru the piece.

Think I learned that from Kitty-Whacker.

Semper-Fi!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Monday, February 27, 2006, at 03:53:25 (ZULU)

All,

It's been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to ask a few questions about ammo.

1, Is it true that the M855 stuff isn't working as well as expected on the Jihadies?

2, Are hollow points legal since we are engageing illegal combatants?

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Monday, February 27, 2006, at 04:12:50 (ZULU)

Correction to my earlier posting:

Mil-spec ammunition has *crimped* primer pockets (doh!).

(You swage them to get rid of the crimp.)

Concur w/Dennis, primer pocket uniformer is a nice tool to have. The good ones have a cutter mounted in a stop collar, which means it won't cut too deep. Also does a lovely job of removing residue from the primer pocket. Pick one that has a hex drive attach, then you can use a cordless screwdriver to power it.

Trust me, if you are processing any serious quantity of brass, power drive is the way to go for as many of the prep steps as possible.

I use a power driver for triming, chamfering case mouths inside and out and cleaning primer pockets.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, February 27, 2006, at 04:16:07 (ZULU)

Underground range-the ventilation system will kick your wallet near flat. NRA can provide ventilation specs for you, appearance will probably also be an issue. Don't want to vent? Remember YOU LIVE in the connecting building! The primer chemicals are enough to cause problems, never mind lead bullets.

I think Caswell has a bullet trap that's less susceptible to bullet impact damage than the old style flat plate. Isn't cheap though.

WR Moore
Monday, February 27, 2006, at 05:20:21 (ZULU)

OT monologue on empire building beaurocrats: Check out the proposed NAIS-that's National Animal Information System. Every critter considered "livestock" will have to be microchipped and every "point of origon" registered. Anytime the critter leaves the registered location paperwork has to be filed, if it returns another set of paperwork filed. The explanation has to do with tracking the sources of mad cow or bioterrorism or......(empire building)

Guys, ignoring the PITA of the paperwork for junior's calf to go to the 4H show & back, look at the number of chips & amount of paperwork Purdue is gonna generate. This is just plain unworkable, but some idiots are trying to get this into law. And guess who's gonna pay for it. Write your elected officials.

WR Moore
Monday, February 27, 2006, at 08:11:03 (ZULU)

Bad Karma: Your ears must be burning when the shit hits the fan. Everyone is mentioning yer nickname...On the hollow points: Verbotten. No issue hollow points, dumdums per geneva and the hague. We play by that rule. You might have heard the tale of the SMK though---and while it has a little hole centered in the Ogive---legal beagles have deemed it NOT hollowpoint; and rightly so. Every now and then, some schmuck lawyer comes along and revisits this and unilaterally decides this is hollow point ammo--just happened actually, but this never stands long as the little hole is merely a CG thing, not necessarily to "expand violently" on impact. There are better designs to do that...and that is part of the definition: "designed to expand or fragment..." If a bullet "might" do this but isn't designed to...and the feature that "might expand" is only there to shift CG and make a consistant trajectory, well, it comes to a line but doesn't cross it. Good for us, because:

Green tip has failed miserably in several high profile incidents. Scientific? Hardly, but the guys who paid the price weren't average troops, either. I carry Hornaday when I find it, Black hills when I cannot. Yes...SMKs both...The 1:7" twist combined with a steel core 62gr woodpecker lips projectile makes for a little power drill on flesh. In and out, with all that remaining velocity exiting the body taking foot-pounds of force out of the equation. And they are tiny, little .224" holes to begin with...Right, wrong or indifferent, there is little confidence in green tip in many circles. I am pretty sure the 75s and 77s are betterer...but I could be wrong in some double-blind silly-ass scientific lie. Don't matter a wit; cuz confidence is king in those same circles. Shooting on a range is a mental game as much as it is anything. When the range goes hot in two directions---it is more so. If ya feel better about your gear with blue boxes of ammo, then all is good and well. Have yourself a nice sight picture with a crisp let off....:))

Boris
Monday, February 27, 2006, at 08:40:45 (ZULU)

BKS: Send me an APO addy for that LT whose hooch burned down. I have a small pile of (woodland) Gortex, and more than a few blankets I can send. Also can address a few items on the sniper wish-list (dragbag, binos)...need an addy to "MPS" the boxes.

Sarge JR: No harddrives in any of the laptops I've found. I have IBM thinkpads with power, but cannot even tell if the screeen works...I could send if you want...remind me of your APO via email....we have a couple weeks before i go somewhere else. If you can dig up HDs, you may be in business.

I am in a full-blown "going out of business" mode. A 20' connex holds alot of crap....but handing out needed stuff is as fun (rewarding) as day one.

Boris
Monday, February 27, 2006, at 13:53:42 (ZULU)

Funny video (cartoon) summing the cartoon rage.

http://www.zipperfish.com/free/yaafm12.php

or click my name

Steve in Tampa
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Monday, February 27, 2006, at 21:40:49 (ZULU)

Bad Karma: Where've you been? It's been years since we last traded cat recipes. Are you still shooting your 625?

CDC'
Monday, February 27, 2006, at 22:07:23 (ZULU)

Dudes,

I've got the bug for new binos. Donated my older compact pair to AmericanSnipers.org, hope they can make use of them. I'm thinking 7, 8, or 10x with 30, 32, or 42mm objective. I like Steiner and Leica, Swaro's prices are completely insane. What brand, magnification and objectives are you guys using?

Duman

Duman
Monday, February 27, 2006, at 23:51:07 (ZULU)

Boris,

I keep hearing of guys asking folks here to send H.P.s. I remember when I was in desert storm we were issued M855's. Well just before the berm breach we were reissued M193 ball. The theory was it was unstable in flight and would bust apart upon impact. I didn't get a chance to rip up and badies cause they were tryinh out out do the french in the retreat mode. God speed to all who are there! Good hunting and watch out for the ever watchful eyes of the press.

CDC,

Yes I still have the 625. I have the ultimate load for it too.I am casting a Lee 230gr T/C over 6.0gr Unique. Here is where my loads differ. Instead of usinf conventional bullet lube I wrap them in teflon plumbers tape and seat them as is. I shot a group at 25m that was about 1.70" for 50 rounds! No leading either. I am now using the tape for all my standard pistol calibers. It works well with my 610 10mm too. Same load but with a Lee 175gr T/C. I've been out of touch since I got married again to a GREAT woman. She was the captain of the rifle tream for Marriott Int. (the hotel people). Fought a war with my ex-wife and won custody of my girl (I have had her for 4 years now) and the adoption hearing is next month.

Got a great load for my AR 1/7...23.5gr Varget with either the Hornady 75gr HPBT or the 75gr A-Max. Nearly out shoots my bolt gun! .421" at 100m

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 00:01:22 (ZULU)

CDC,

Still working on a good cat burrito. The P.I. had the best cat and monkey to be had. Girls were fun too.

Really Bad Karma! Ha Ha.

Bad Karma
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 00:03:47 (ZULU)

I'm having a hard time getting a definitive answer to the following question...and figger that here's about as good a forum as there might be: Are the DPMS 308 and Armalite AR10 barrels interchangable, particularly as regards the barrel extension/bolt compatibility? I have a DPMS LR308 barrel (24" heavy contour) that's surplus to my needs, and have had some interest, but that's the question, and I just don't know.

Duman: binos: I have Zeiss 8X30 classics...workee great for what I need. Take a hard look at IOR Valdada...use Zeiss glass. Both of these are a bit on the heavy side, but appear hell for stout. Want lighter? Look at Steiner (polycarbonwhatever bodies).

In all cases, IMHO its much more a proposition of quality than magnification...really good 8X is much better than "average" 10 or 12X....quality determines resolution, which determines what you can see. Of course, 12X high quality will beat 8X high quality, given that the 12X are 40+mm objectives (to 30mm 8X). Matter of low-light "seeability". Its all a tradeoff...higher magnification = need for larger objective = more weight/bulk, and more difficulty in "steadiness" hand held. More than 12X = tripod.

Me, I'm sold on compact, high quality (read europtics Zeiss, Steiner, Lieca, Valdada and the like) in 8X30 for all-round use.

Steve
Butte, MT, USofA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 00:06:36 (ZULU)

I use old West German Zeiss 10X25 minis more that all the rest combined.

Swaro 8X are a thing of beauty. These were close-outs so I got a deal.

B&L 10X Customs. Very clear. Reasonably priced. I let the kids use them.

Steiner 15X56 Bighorns. Razor sharp. Waterproof. Fogproof. Very nice. They go on a tripod.

If you can get a deal on Leicas, take it. Gorgeous glass. If you can't, look hard at the Steiners. Good bang/buck. I got a steal on my Steiners by checking "make offer" on eBay. Zeiss Conquest look like they may be a deal.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 00:16:02 (ZULU)

This is excellent:

"One cannot keep up with...events -- the wheels of history are turning too quickly. The world...a few years hence, will not resemble the world we inhabited a few years ago....The events will fall out... unpredictably...The names, dates, and places are not yet recorded; but the shape and scale of events is already blotting the sun on our horizon.

"...It is only in retrospect that we understand what happened as the 1930s progressed -- when a spineless political class, eager at any price to preserve a peace that was no longer available, performed endless demeaning acts of appeasement to the Nazis; while the Nazis created additional grievances to extract more.

"This is precisely what is happening now, as we are confronted by the Islamist fanatics, whose views and demands are already being parroted by fearful “mainstream” Muslim politicians. We will do anything to preserve a peace that ceased to exist on 9/11. Not one of our prominent politicians dares even to name the enemy."

We are in a fight for our lives, but we're in denial. If you aren't spooked, you don't know what's happening. Click my name.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 01:41:29 (ZULU)

If a couple of you want me to drop this, I'll drop it.

One more very good one on Iran's strategy. Click my name. If we don't start taking Iran's involvement much more seriously, we are going to have REAL security problems. I don't mean a minor incident like 911.

This is Mark Steyn quote unrelated to the above: Mark is "...a little unnerved at the number of readers who seem to think the rest of the world can go hang but America will endure as a lonely candle of liberty in the new dark ages. Think that one through: a totalitarian China, a crumbling Russia, an insane Middle East, a disease-ridden Africa, a civil-war-torn Eurabia — and a country that can’t even enforce its borders against two relatively benign states will somehow be able to hold the entire planet at bay? Dream on, “realists.”"

CDC'
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 01:56:30 (ZULU)

Guys Joe is up by only 91 votes at SWFA. It is going to be close Go vote for Joe!!

charles w smith
Wford, TX, USA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 02:57:32 (ZULU)

CDC,

My sister-in-law is from Iran. She is a Christian too. Anyway from what I've heard the country (sane thinking citizens) are tripping out over this nuke stuff. As far as the Iranian pres gores he believes he can bring back the 12th Imam by focing armageddon to take place.I don't think Israel is going to tolerate that crap for a nanosecond.

Gun stuff: You know we seem to be reinventing the wheel as far as the 6.8SPC and the 6.5 Grendell. Why not th 6mm TCU? I know the AR system is now doctrine but, a little mod here and there we can have a better platform. I still feel that the HK system (G3 & G33) are the prime candidate for a new system. A gas gun is good but I took my HK91 and removed the extractor for a full mag and IT WORKS! Try that with a AR! Truely there is no ultimate weapon system or cartridge. What irritates me is most of our weapons are made over seas! Sure the Belgains, Itallian, et all are allies, but we need some good ol yankee ideas and a American made stuff. I would really like to see the M240 scrapped for a MG3 system. Why reinvent the wheel? Remember that French POS they MADE us use in WWI.

I hope we can exterminate these terrorist pig eating sons of whores there, so I don't have to worry about them doing thier unholy crap here.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 03:34:33 (ZULU)

Bullet traps - you need the water recovery system. No airborne lead and the lead is trapped to be recycled. Expensive as all get out but it works. It is better than having elevated lead in the blood as many do and do not realize it now. The ventilation system isa must and you ahve to move x cubic yards fo air / minute to be safe. Don't forget the particles of chemicals left all over the floor. Hmmmm, starting to sound expensive. :)

Bad Karma - Boris pretty much hit it on the head. The 855s were for punching through soviet body armor and still killing Ivan inside. No body armor and the round is going too fast and acts like a needle. No real tissue damage. The older rounds, all lead, will tear up bodies. I have listened to alot of BS about other rounds but they are not really needed, and I am sure that some will immediately jump in here and decry the 5.56 in favor of some flavor of the month, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8, 7mm08 whatever. Actually the 5.56 killed many a little beasty for years and did not have a problem until they put a penetrator tip in the dam thing and off balanced it. This made it not group worth a crap and shot right through little malnourished bodies. Some units are using the 77gr black Hills or the 75 gr Hornady stuff in their weapons but it was really introduced for the SPR and not the M4.

Binos - Beware going too high in magnification as the jitters will kill you. Also be aware of the exit pupil size for somfort fo viewing. Do not go high mag and small objective as the mag and objective sets the exit pupil size. I like both Leica and Steiner as well as Zeiss.

Well I see Bad Karma posted just as I was about to post. You make a case for made in America then quote weapons made outside of our borders. What's up with that? :) I will stand by the M4 system and the 5.56 round. Until a round comes along that is quatitatively better than the 5.56 I will stay with it. Change for change sake is not a good policy it has bit us before.

Well back into my getting ready for the next wave of changes at work.

Hold hard guys

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 03:49:37 (ZULU)

Rick,

Yeah you're right, I did mention forign made weapons, but who says we can't make em here? I do like the 5.56mm It has what the intermediate cartidge needs, low recoil, light weight and high velocity. I do remember waaay back in the late 80's the Israeli mad Sampson 5.56mm with a 70gr FMJ. It was very accurate but never tested it on any type of game. I guess it was a prototype over run.

I think if they either drop the penetrator and fill it with lead or use a full length tungsten core and shape it in a VLD style pushing COG back. This might improve terminal balistics. Marksmanship plays a huge role in effectiveness. I shoot some very large big five rifles and still shot placement is the key. Although the game doesn't shoot back, it can however run you over PDQ!

I am seeing shotguns in some instances though. Like with so many factors bullet geometry is a concideration. Take for example th Keith SWC. Hard non ecpanding lead bullet with a wide meplat and heavy shoulder hits like a bus!

What if the M855 was tossed out a 1/12 barrel? Not so accurate but nasty on the recieving side.

Just a note about liberals..... I got into a "discussion" about war with my other sister in law and she asked me what war was like in my 1991 experience. I told her it was a lot like giving presents at Christmas. I got the WHAT!! from her with a demand for an explanation. I said "Yeah, it's like presents at Christmas...It's much better to give than it is to recieve". With a broad smile. You could hear a pin drop. My Grandpa (WWII PT boat vet) busted out laughing. I love to make liberal squirm!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 04:30:42 (ZULU)

I am about to seal the deal on a new Rem 700 VSF .308 and I need some input on what glass I should get to go along with it. An associate just bought a Nightforce 22x NXS. I definitely like it, but it's a little pricey. I was also looking at Leupold VX-III's. Does anyone have any suggestions or comments about the scopes, and how much do illuminated reticles actually help? And, I personally like the varmit and range finding reticles, but a lot of folks say that there is no substitute for the mil-dot. Should I stick with my preferences, or should I look outside of them? Does anyone in here have a 700 VSF? If so, how does it shoot. I am mainly looking to shoot 300 meters out to about 1k. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Dalton Howard
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 05:14:36 (ZULU)

Well Troops we gave it our best! Joe missed out on First place by..54 votes. Hey 2nd prize isn't exactly cheap stuff either! Nice Swarovski binos and scope! Valued at somewhere around $1600!! Not bad Joe!!

THANKS TO ALL who helped!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 05:33:35 (ZULU)

DH- if you're going Leupold, take a look at the 4.5-14 Precision Marksman with Mil-Dot. It has sufficient internal travel to get you to 1K without tapered mounts. MK4 bases and your choice of rings. The QRW bases will also work and Burris Signature Zee rings allow the scope tube to self align without lappping.

Not familiar with the particular 700 variant you mention. How anyone else's rifle shoots is no indicator on how yours might. My VLS is an honest 1/2 MOA rifle after bedding and free floating.

WR Moore
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 06:55:06 (ZULU)

Rod, Lindy,

Shot a 65/66 on Sat. so I think I'll leave the sights alone for now. Thanks for the responses.

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 11:24:26 (ZULU)

Rick mentioned "no lead in the air" with a water recovery system. That neglects the lead in the primer compound, which is still in most primers, and which represents much of the lead which gets put into the air if you're shooting FMJ or TMJ bullets. There are lead-free primers, though, and they'd be a good idea for anyone spending much time shooting indoors - and many indoor ranges now require them, in ammo with TMJ bullets.

Thunder Ranch in Oregon has gone to totally lead-free ammo, so you'll need to get that if you plan to go there. Their web page is a good resource for suppliers.

Lindy
An Undisclosed Secure Location, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 12:46:41 (ZULU)

Rick,

Couldn't agree with you more on wind shooting. A boil is just a bad thing waiting to happen. I had a perfect example of that this weekend. Helped son-in-law set up a new range on his ranch with steel out to 1000yds.

When we started shooting we had a nice 5 to 6mph SE half value wind and by the time "I" got to shoot it started to boil and then went from full left to full right switching back and fourth then went completly around to come out of the west at a full value at 8 to 13mph so needless to say I went home frustrated and pissed off!!!!

Shooting steel is really fruastrating when you can't see where your round is going or read the trace.

Mike,

Maybe I misunderstood your comment on no mirage with a good 5mph cross wind. I always figured you didn't loose mirage until over 8mph but I could be wrong too. Hows retirement treating you??? Your probably sewing all the time now though(HA)!!

Pat
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 12:50:22 (ZULU)

Pat, I just write like crap. My thoughts on a 5mph wind are simple. You can see it and adjust for it. If it drops to boil the freakin target gives false indicators of where it is. Too many years shooting HP lead me to hate no wind on hot days. 5mph seems to be where I am best. I see it. Its easy to adjust for and target is where its supposed to be. Not floating in mirage somewhere other than where it seems.

5.56, I am limited because most of my years with this round where not held to green tip. I was able to use Soft Points and man it worked well.

I still love my M16 varients. Anyone ever spend any time with me in field will tell you the M4 and I are married.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 16:51:11 (ZULU)

Boris: It's only second place, but drawing a pair of Swaros beats playing with a knife and cutting your finger.

Binos: Rick's right. The 10X25s are as neat as can be, but, if I were to do it again, 8X would be about max. 7X would be even better. Seriously consider a high$$ Germans. They fit right in a shirt pocket. The best binos are ones you have with you.

If it interests any of you, I'd like to see what you make of the following:

Whether or not we succeed in Iraq depends on, among other things, Iraqi's desire to build and maintain a peaceful civil society. If they are determined to kill each other, we are going to have to develop other options.

If Iraq works, the Iranian Mad Mullahs' rule is at an end. The Iranians know this, so they have to fight us. They have no choice.

If Iraq doesn't work, we will have to deal with empowered and emboldened Pan Islamists. If any country in the Middle East is beyond our ability to project power, it will become a sanctuary for terrorists intent on topping the 911 assholes.

The Iranians drove Israel out of Lebanon using tactics similar to those being used by our enemies in Iraq. Same shit, different day.

Iran is developing nuclear weapons as fast as they can and their plans extend beyond the Middle East and include dead Americans, Israelis, Europeans, and Arabs.

We have erratic political leadership.

When the American people are interested and involved, we are smart.

We're not involved because we aren't scared enough.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 17:42:09 (ZULU)

This was on Instapundit. A lot of people are thinking similar thoughts.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 18:20:54 (ZULU)

Come on, guys! It's not over yet! Boris is only 54 votes behind 1st! Votes still being taken until midnite!

Les
CT, - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 18:31:37 (ZULU)

Got my 5 votes in, now Joe's down by 49. Vote early, vote often.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 18:37:48 (ZULU)

Guys go and vote for Joe. Notice if more than one person in household or from ISP wants to vote for Joe you need to wait about ten minutes, then it will accept additional votes for same guy.

Please dont let the guy with Super sniper tatto'd on his arm win this.

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 20:10:17 (ZULU)

HEY THEY DID reopen voting!!! Joe is only down by 22 votes COME ON GANG LETS get him back in first!!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 20:13:19 (ZULU)

Hi Guys,

My boss is looking at getting a pocket handgun,What cals do you like the best,380,9,32.I told him to get the kel-tek line.

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 20:37:26 (ZULU)

An unexpected video from al-Jazzera. Interesting and somewhat amazing considering the source. You be hard pressed to find such bold statements in the US main stream media, let alone aJ. Worth a look if you haven't already seen it.

switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

edited to make the link work

Steve in Tampa
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 20:51:59 (ZULU)

Binos,

Thanks for advice on binos. Running some ratios, most binos have exit pupils of ~2.75-4.25mm. The compacts go as low as ~2, with the big boys as high as ~7 (7x50). The 8x30 seem to be about the range I'm looking at. 10x is too high, based on past experience with scanning and re-acquiring target with naked eye (that's probably just me). I'm thinking more than one set of binos eventually, though. I've never been sorry spending big money on optics, though it's tough to part with that much cash. No significant differences in performance between porro-prism and roof-prism, based on google searches. Roof-prism has better form factor. Modern coatings play big role in performance, though probably not noticeable if you aren't comparing side-by-side. I suspect coatings play big role in price of optics, and Lito could probably shed some light on that. Coating optical materials typically involves semiconductor-type processes (evaporation, plasma deposition, etc.) which inherently are very expensive.

Vote for Boris!

Duman

Duman
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 21:00:40 (ZULU)

Guys,

Boris is up by 41 votes.

Duman
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 22:58:27 (ZULU)

Joe's down 33 votes!!!!!!!!!! Come on guys, vote like you're in Chicago.

WR Moore
Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 23:50:39 (ZULU)

Joe's in 3rd, they banned me. :(

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 23:58:44 (ZULU)

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