Sniper Country Duty Roster

February 2004

One more Enfield;

I have a Longbranch No.4 Mk1* made in 1943. All Canadian except a Savage magazine. Great rifle. I really like the way they had different length butt stocks available.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 02:00:36 (ZULU)

Icky; what bullet were you shooting in that 12FV? And what is it's twist. I believe that one is probably going to be one in 9. Then we'll go into what it might have been you saw there.

Bravo; ref( the guy that knows how to stabilize the mountings....)I

fully expected you to say that the rumors of your demise were greatly exagerated. I know you have come close to mastering the mountings on the rifle in question. I was really tempted to weld the last one I had and that's the truth.

WR; Yes the PSG-1 has appeal and I wish I still had mine. It cost no where near the price they are today. I believe it was $800 wholesale. Yes the HK reps were saying you could throw an HK 91 out of a helicopter and it wouldn't go off. I guess that has some Merrit but you would have encountered the ammo and accuracy problems. I've reloaded for the darn things and the perils there are numerous to say the least. It made a interesting piece for that Sniper Movie anyway. If they hadn't jacked the price up so high the movie would have made it a legend like the Model 29 or Dirty Harry fame.

As a give em hell battle rattle piece I'd still opt for the FAL with probably the HK 91/G3 and AK-47 both in second place in trying terrain and weather. I can't say the FAL's I've had were exceptionally accurate but I've never had a real good European made one and that gas adjuster is so bloody cute and reliablility is super good as far as I'm concerned. M-14 types would be my pick for accuracy in the iron sight class. I found them far easier to shoot at ranges beyond 600 but maybe it's the sights. They don't make better irons on a battle gun that that. But like someone said the gas port tsk tsk! Is a factor and it had to clean on all the ones' I've shot so far. My son has a Springfield low end that he hits saucer size paper targets with at 500 very regular and I can't get him to put a scope on it for any length of time.

As to 1911's I have to agree with Mike that the Rock River jobs are real decent for the price. I really can't get into the Para-ord guns for the reason's mentioned. You can't beat it(Rock River) for twice the money. When we shot metal target scenerios (I wont get into it too far) but the commander was definitely down in power from the full size barrel. There might be plenty left to bump the bad guys over but I'll take a .40 over it if you please although I love the feel of it and the accuracy is good.

And just a parting shot..

Here's to the old Enfield! Those things were being manufactured in tents during the first Ghan/Russian conflict and still brought down helicopters. But it's time has expired I fear. AS has the excellent Mosin Nagant and the old Springfield 1903 or the 1917 Enfield and the 98 Mauser. Sorry just had to see them in print one more time, "Those were the days my friend. Those were the days!"

Brogers
Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 02:08:49 (ZULU)

Scott S, Bravo and others,

Thanks for the info. I shoot the bolt guns at 600 - 1000 now, but the comment that he made, made me think it would be fun to try on day. I just might bring it to the range at Bragg and send a few down range.

Rod Regier,

I do enjoy the Enfiled much! But man... thoughs guy yrs ago wer tuff! I spent maybe an hour of shooting and my shoulder was spent. Mine are all in original condition with the metal butt plates. Be side shooting the bolt (modern long guns) I enjoy the surplus ones too. I've grown to four gun safes over the yrs. I had picked up 10 303 brit mags at a guns show, $15 each, but worth it when I see how much they go for now. Everynow and then i think about the idea of selling a rifle to get up funds for a new long gun, but i never will part with the LeeEnfields i have. The 2a I have has a "T" on the serial number...someone once told me that that ment it was produced as a target/sniper rifle. Any truth in that?

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 02:31:38 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Gotta get a new scale, mine took a powder, no doubt due to too many carne adovada burritos on my part.

Once I do I will get you weights on HK 93 vs. M1A.

I have both stocks for the 93, fixed (A2) and telescoping (A3). I will try to weigh both.

Also, I will weigh my M1A (Walnut stock, BPT Ltwt. scope mount) with a full 20rd. mag, HK93 A2 w/ 25 rd. mag and w/ 40rd. mag, HK93A3 w/ 25 and 40 rd. mags.

A3 stock is a bit heavier, but I'm betting the A3 configuration w/ 40 rds. is still lighter than the M1A w/ 20 rds.

As I said, love my M1A, but damn, that HK is handy.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 04:44:46 (ZULU)

On this WMD thing: The French thought Sadaam had them. So did the Germans. As good as British intel is, they thought Sadaam had them. The Democrats on the House and Senate Intelligence Committees saw the same intel Bush, Rice, Rumsfeld and the DOD saw, and all agreed that Sadaam had them. The intel from all over the world had all kinds of precursor material and equipment moving into Iraq.

Here's the kicker. Sadaam gave up about 150 BILLION DOLLARS (!!!) in revenue by allowing his oil to be sanctioned to protect his WMD programs. He played cat and mouse with UN weapons inspectors for about eight years to hide something. Around July of 2002 I posted an article from Foreign Policy magazine that explained why he made such crazy decisions. The author concluded that Sadaam had the habit of shooting people who told things that he didn't want to hear. As a result, his intel was terrible. Rather than present him with facts, his intel people told him whatever would make him happy.

Did his weapons development people do the same thing? He isn't an engineer or even a competent manager. Shining him on would have beat pissing him off.

Why else would he give up that kind of money?

As to it being some conspiracy to control oil: Bullshit. It would have been vastly cheaper to drop sanctions and buy the stuff. And look at the political costs to President Bush. He knew that he would get hammered if no WMDs were found. He also knew that, due to a serious loss of credibility, our actions would be severely constrained elsewhere. For Bush there was little political or economic upside from going in under false pretenses, and massive potential downside.

But we're there and there's no wimping out now.

CDC'
Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 05:13:34 (ZULU)

Joe,

Rcd. an Email from Jayne. Excerpt follows:

"I will look round for black/olive XL tee-shirts to mail to Major Joe.....We have received multiple thank you's from the troops, and we all appreciate them SO MUCH! Considering the magnitude of their jobs, we never expected a reply, let alone multiple thank you's. The kids were in awe over every one of them!!!"

Don't git no better than this.........

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 05:18:10 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Wow....pups. I had no idea. Congratulations! How long will your recovery be?

Hey, tell that brother-in-law of mine I said hello!

David Hornsby
Bedford, Texas, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 05:39:25 (ZULU)

Bruce: Mail day! I received four boxes--right on time too; the 101st is in town and the little PX is plum out of snuff! Some soldiers are jonesing pretty bad. This'll calm them down, eh? Best of all---I can spread this stuff all over---tons!

Dave K: Got two from you as well; I'll mix-match with Bruce's shipment to make "unit-pack" care packages.

I guess I actually prefer to get everything all at once. My lower back doesn't though...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 09:29:23 (ZULU)

Looking for opinions or help, Just got my Starlight case, And although it is made for 2 rifles I want to just set it up for one. A deployment case if you will, I am planning on flying out to some matches and will need to get the basics all in the case. Before I butcher the foam can you give me suggestions on what should be in there and how arranged best. My rifle is a AICS chassis and I know I want like 4 mags the Bi-pod and like a cleaning rod cut out in there. Plus how much foam do you cut out for this type set up? Do you use the lower half for things like the cleaning rod, maybe range finder. I need to get set up, Planning on going to the Tac-pro match in Texas for starters, Thanks Keith

Keith
NJ, - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 12:54:32 (ZULU)

Jody, Nope another Enfield! No.4 Mk2. Unissued, even the magazine number matches, unfired...until I got my hands on it! Now exactly 40 rounds down-range! I need more ammo to get use to this sweet thing!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 14:02:16 (ZULU)

Bravo--

Regarding the AR 180b, I used mine some in Carbine 1 and 2 at SMTC. I brought it as back-up to my SR15 M4. The 180 needs a heat shield. The blisters have finally healed, 6 months later :). No more than one magazine at CQB range/speed and the front handgaurd is untouchable. IT is light weight and quick handling. The break works, as much as it is unnecessary on a .223.

Accuracy was decent. The trigger is too heavy and crunchy, vs AR. You must remmeber that the gas block is adjustable for position on the barrel. I ran out of windage and couldn't figure it out until Armalite reminded me to try adjusting the gas block. After that it is a decent shooter, probably 1.5-2 moa w/ irons.

I like the M16 mag use. The ergonomics are good, BUT, forget about flicking the safety in-between bursts in CQB type shooting. The safety does not move positively enough, you have to check that it's off. I think that the plastic lower binds the movement of the selector somewhat.

Overall it's a fun gun, but not really a serious one. Poor options for optics no provision to attach a light or NOD. The real problem is a lack of heat shield, IMHO. Hope this helps, will trade for a '14 if you want :).

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 16:05:44 (ZULU)

Undude, I got the sling friday afternoon! All the quality I've come to expect from your products.

Good luck on the upcoming surgery. If you keep this up, you will have as many linear inches of suture scars as me ; )

You know what they say...It's not the age it's the mileage!

Sarge, how many do we have confirmed for the Badlands shoot next month?

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 17:11:16 (ZULU)

Joe,

You made our Sunday morning! Happy to hear the stuff got there.

Tell those guys how we feel about them.

I find it interesting that there is a flurry of suicide bombings on one of the holiest of Muslim holidays. Somehow, I can't recall a lot of similar bombings perpetrated by Episcopalians on Christmas or by Jews on Yom Kippur.

Calvin and Markwell:

I'll send you both a photo of a big dead chuck from a few years back. Found them while rummaging through old photos. Kimber Custom Match M84 in .223 and an excited Jack Russell in the photo, also.

Y'all Stay Safe

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 17:30:18 (ZULU)

Gents, BRogers,

Got a set of ZEiss (sp?) binos the other day. Made in former German military, has an indicator for IR or night vision optics being used on the bino user, rubber armoured, 7X40 with reticle in the right side occular. There were no instructions with it (from Cheaper then Dirt). Can anyone tell me what the incremet of mils would be on the reticle? Has 10 full lines across the bottom (horizontal) with half length lines/tick marks between them. Vertically it four full lines, no half lines between them. nomenclature on the binos is: Ziess NVA 7X40 IV-75. on the right occular is a dovetail mount (for ???). Each occular has individual focus from -3 to +5

Appreciate any info you can provide.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 17:47:11 (ZULU)

CDC; ditto; your logic is right on. At least we taught the SOB and every other SOB like him not to bluff their WMD's in this game of Deadly WMD poker.

Screw' em if they weren't bombing us there they'd be sending those suicide freeks to Pittsburg. We just as well kill em there. Some of that stuff may be our own tactical fault over there. We tried for civil order too damn soon. We should have leveled a few more walls before we started building em back. ^^(*(%%(%!

Steve; ;just get you an old wooden yard stick and put it at 100 yards. You can see how much the marks all cover. Even if it were published it's worth checking that way before you use it for serious range finding. You don't really need Mil's to measure range by the way. It's a simple algebra thing. Inches works just as well or anything else that knows the target size and the distance covered at 100 by the marks.

Brogers
Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 18:17:25 (ZULU)

New Volquartsen Centerfire SA Rifles-

Heard that these are going to be introduced at the SHOT Show. Starting with a .223 version. Should be tack drivers. Would be nice to have a new semi-auto centerfire option. Anyone have any other info on them?

LTChip
PLACERVILLE, CA, - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 20:19:34 (ZULU)

Yet another Enfield: Brand spankin new A-Square built 470 Capstick. 500gr boolit with over 8000 pounds o' feet behind it:) Says something for Enfields if that's what both Rigby and A-Square prefer to base thier custom jobs on. My 505 gibbs Rigby is a Rigby manufactured super-enfield.

Rob

Robert Martin
Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 20:47:35 (ZULU)

Ahhhh the Enfield. I just sold mine (sniff). An No4Mk2 (F). Unfired when I got it. I shot it in a milsurp rifle match (I lost to a guy shooting a Swede Mauser....damn Swedes!). I'm keeping my mosin M44 as a "beat the crap out of truck" gun. I sold the Enfield to maintain my Garand habit ;)))) God bless the CMP.

As to 1911's. I'm with Mike on this one too. I don't like the Para's. Depending on what you want to do (and spend) it's hard to beat the Springfield "Loaded" series. Yes, they have an "internal lock", but it is easily retro-fittable (unlike the Kimber). The Kimber's "Schwartz" safety has been causing some problems for owners. If you're looking for a "build up" gun the new springfield "mil-spec" line are great. Also, it appears that Colt's quality is up again. I purchased one of the new re-issue 70 series and it is a thing of beauty. You might wanna check out 1911forum.com. Check under the gunsmithing section and see what a lot of smith's think of Para's....

Rich

Rich S.
MD, - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 23:03:32 (ZULU)

Ref: Enfields

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe the super magnum big bore rifles are built on M1917 Enfield actions not the .303 SMLE actions. I have a cherry SMLE that I took from the wrap and cosmoline myself. It was built in the month and year of my birth. It is tough and pretty accurate. But the real claim to fame for the SMLE is speed. It's fast to cycle the bolt and fast to reload. Perhaps the fastest turn-bolt design ever. I've harbored the desire to have my SMLE converted to a scout rifle configuration...maybe this year.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 23:25:38 (ZULU)

While your on about the H&K PSG1 You fellers ever get the MSG 90A1 DMR? and i though the semi gun in the movie was an SL8-G36?

One hell of windy night in the woods last night, had a flight of 3 gunships flying about over head for quite a while, seemed to be patroling the airport, suppose they can see all sorts with the thermal imaging, figured it wasn't a good time to be stalking pigs near the airport fence, wouldn't want to get mistaken for a terrorist, so i stayed put in my tree stand and watched the spectacle.

Picked up a hunter n his missus today from the airport, after some boar and mouflon, swap them over with some irish boys mid week. Went upto the forestery house in the woods to check in with the ranger and his missus showed me a litter of german short haired pointer pups, one little bitch came over and jumped straight onto my knee, i asked "are they all sold?" as if i was no longer in charge of my own lips? " that one isn't" she said. and the dog just stared at me with those big eyes, i was very tempted, very very tempted to take her with me, there is nuthin cuter than a puppy dog..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, February 1, 2004, at 23:45:42 (ZULU)

Keith. On laying out your case. Just pay everything on top of it and move it around. Leave a couple of inches between cut outs to make sure the foam wont tear.

PSG-1....Good deal in its day. SR-25 and AR-10 are a) American and b) new technology.

Out

Gooch
BF, AR, US of A - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 00:57:10 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

I got a weapon shipping question here. As I posted earlier, I just sold my Enfield (to a guy in Tx). Anyway, I know the Enfield is C&R. The buyer has a C&R lisence. I have no lisence. Can I just ship it to him directly (upon receipt of his lisence) or do I have to ship it FROM an FFL (I know it has to go TO a C&R or FFL) as well. I know non-C&R has to go FROM, but what about C&R's?

Thanks

Rich S

Rich S.
MD, - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 01:25:01 (ZULU)

Enfields (Again);

I don't think any of the 2A's were used for sniper/target use. I could be wrong. Hard to say what the Indian Army done.

I had though about a scout configuration based on an Enfield. I was going to use one of those No.5 Jungle Carines. Kevin, where was your SMLE made?

Mine, No.4 Mk.1*, likes the 174gr MatchKing. Still doing some load development.

Sarge, I'd love to get a hold of a pratically new one.

Of all the mil-surps I own, the best shooting rifle is a Mauser. It's a 1944 K98k made by Gustloff Werke. It is one of the Soviet captured now imported into the States. It likes the 200gr MatchKing with 40gr H4895.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 01:35:09 (ZULU)

C&R;

I don't know about that. A good place to ask is CSP on jouster.com, they have an Enfield section there.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 01:46:33 (ZULU)

The No4 Mk2 was the last variant of the .303 caliber SMLE rifle,Produced i believe between 1949 & 1955. The major difference between the N0 1 and the No2 is that trigger group, was pinned to the receiver as opposed to being pinned to the trigger guard(as on the No 1's. This was done to counter the effects of the forend warping in shitty weather conditions. The warpage would effect the positioning of the trigger on the sear, screwing with the trigger pull and possibly giving the rifle less accuracy potential. The No2 is probably one of the better produced versions, due to the fact that it was under production during relative peace time, (on the home front at least) and as such should probably be of better quality in materials and workmanship with tighter tollerances. The N05 jungle carbine version was introduced in 1944 and was a much shortened version of the Mk1, it was notorious for having a wandering zero and the muzzle flash and recoil was a source of complaint, despite it having a flash hider and rubber butt plate.

There are some good books about if you are interested in Enfields.

and ref the WMD, ask the relatives of all the Kurds and Iranians who where gassed about the existence of WMD. whatever was or wasn't there, we sure gave em enough time to hide it and dispose of it, who's to say whats stashed across the border? or did we Satt monitor every inch of Iraq and its broders 24hrs a day for the last 13 years?

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 02:55:23 (ZULU)

Enfield based super mags were on the 1917, as far as I know. Rigby made a bunch, and a couple of other mfgrs as well. Best are the Rigby's and SMLE. I heard savage did a few for them as well, but idunno. I'm not sure, but I think the "t" designation was training, but not like boot camp, but marksmanship. Again not 100% sure.

Since I was skinning hogs today, someone emailed me and said I was really playing with the pigskin...priceless.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 02:55:27 (ZULU)

Hornsby, what are you doing here!!!!!

And talking to D.S. at that!

Richard Johnson
Monday, February 2, 2004, at 03:45:54 (ZULU)

Rich

I know that you can ship directly to a ffl holder, using the U.S. postal service. Do not label the package as a firearm, do tell the postal worker what you are shipping. Of course dont send ammo. I sold a 1903 springfield last summer and shipped USPS straight to the liscense holder. It is my understanding that the same applies to C&R liscense as long as the firearm is a curio or relic.

Please dont take my word for it though, here is the web adress to the ATF page where you will find specifics about C&R transactions. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

Robert Adcock
Far East, Texas, USA - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 04:52:46 (ZULU)

I am considering the purchase of a Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T model 52155 and solicit responses from others with practical knowledge of this optical equipment. This to be mounted on an AR-15 with carry handle.

I will be using it in varied night and day lighting conditions for maximum 250-300 yard shooting of coyote in varied cover. The kind of point-and-shoot-NOW style necessary for coyote in patchy cover I think must be similar to the tactical use the unit is designed for. Remarks and comments from both hunters and tactical shooters about the units strengths, weaknesses (if any), and general utility will be useful and appreciated. The cost of this unit is not insignificant and I wish to avoid being surprised by some unhappy "fact" after I've purchased it and can't return it. It was, after all, designed and intended for tactical combat use so it could have something about it that would make it poorly suited for hunting use. I've used other Leupold models for over 25 years now (with no unresolved issues) so please save the "what I think of Leupold in general" comments for someone else.

Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen.

Dennis
Utah, United States - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 08:33:46 (ZULU)

Dennis,

Look back thru the archives for the last month and a half or so. Someone else asked about the cq/t and rec'd responses. Personally, for me it's a bit busy and not well thought out for quick precision shooting. If it were offered with the semblance of a reticle it would work better for me. For that sort of money, look into the ACOG sites. They are available in a wide variety of configurations. Mine even has a little peep site on top that is pretty nifty.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 12:39:35 (ZULU)

Been a while since I've been here and I hope all is well! We landed a contract to supply the IDF with our gear so 2004 is off to a great start.

We have been developing a new monopod for the Accuracy International rifles. The time is getting close for the intro of the ASAI (Accu-Shot Accuracy International) monopod (our part #BT08). If you are interested in a one time SC price, send us an email and we will notify you once they are in hand. peteR, if you have an AI, let me know and I'll get a sample out to you for T&E. I have pictures of the ASAI so if anyone wants to see it, make that request via email.

Also, we'll be at the SHOT so if you make it, stop by our booth # 929 in the LE section.

Take care.

5db
Monday, February 2, 2004, at 14:30:23 (ZULU)

Good morning shooting world;

Dennis, how ya doin out there by now? I don't know if you would like that thing for coyote hunting or not. I haven't used it understand, but all the dot sights I've tried don't have the resolution to kill yotes at 300 yards in this sagebrush out here and I doubt the power is quite enough. I think 6X is about minimum for this country although I chilled a bunch of em with a 4X Leupold on a AR like yours a few years back. I have a little Weaver Grand Slam variable from 2.5 to 10 ($270).I believe it is that I have on my AR this winter. It's short and mounts nicely and the glass and turrets and power controls are spectacular. Be sure you get a good mount for that handle or the SOB will move on you. That Leatherwood thing that has the piece that goes down to the gas tube (I don't know why it works)is the most stable I've used to date. From Cheaper than Dirt I think is the best place to get one. About $20 bucks or so.

Brogers
Monday, February 2, 2004, at 14:36:43 (ZULU)

Pete; I believe it was a PSG-1 but I could be mistaken. I don't have the tape though. Another item for research department.

I had a grand little German Shorthair a few years back. I train my dogs to obedience and to live in the house with people and shorthairs usually wind up in a pen for most hunters but they are as good around the family as Labs or anything. This little fella would do anything at 5 mo's except retreive a bird. I was so frustrated I didn't know what to do but make him a house pet permanently as he was like a child to me. My wife saw the crisis and in one afternoon had him retreiving. He was as good on birds at 6mo than any 2 year old dog I ever had and smart as a whip. I was taking him for his last Parvo shot on a friday and by monday he was dead of Parvo. The Vet said there had been several cases into his office and he probably caught it there cause he just wasn't able to develop immunity but it was a sad day around this place. My wife cried for a week.

Brogers
Monday, February 2, 2004, at 14:49:39 (ZULU)

Hi all. This is a little off topic for the Duty Roster but I thought, as we had some hunters here, some of you might be interested in this http://www.bushtracks-safaris.com/bushtracks_055.htm or click on my name below for a direct link.

The raffle money goes for a great cause "Goodie for the Grunts" and you get a great prize for your $25 ticket if you win. The pot has just been sweetened also with the addition of a Remington 700 BDL in 300WM and a Leupold scope besides the safari. I've got my tickets so I thought some others might want some. Even if you don't win it's good donation to our troops. I'm posting this on a few other boards so don't be shocked if you see it other places ;)

Rob01
Monday, February 2, 2004, at 18:43:05 (ZULU)

Thanx for spreading the word, Rob01. I think I covered the roster though!

Rob

Robert Martin
Monday, February 2, 2004, at 19:13:00 (ZULU)

As many of you know I load, and am somewhat lacks in my loading technique. Today I decided I wanted to get a better feel for what kind of headspace I'm putting on my 6.5x284's during FL sizing so I bought the stoney point sleeves. Here's what I found.

Fired Lapua Case - 1.813"

New Lapua Case - 1.800"

Lapua sized on body die - 1.806"

Lapua sized on new FL Type S - 1.805"

All in all I think I did pretty good setting up the body die and the FL type S using just the feel of the bolt closing on a sized case.

A couple things I'm wondering about. It's long said that .002" to .003" HS is most accurate. Strange thing is, I get the same SD and MV with each of these cases, using the same load. (the new FL type S excluded as I haven't tried it). Also, Accuracy at 100y, 600y and 1000y is identical with each of these cases, and POI is un-effected betwen the lots.

How can this be, considering a new case has .013" of headspace? FL sized(body die) have .007".

I'm thinking the total amount of headspace is less important than the HS being uniform on each case, and the rounds TIR actually being decent? Now, I have no way of checking TIR, as I'm lazy (we eluded to that before). I will set up the FL type s to .003" HS when I get my new chamber, now that I have the means to check it,,but will I see an improvement?

Food for thought on a rainy TN afternoon. So,, what's ya'll take on this?

FatBoy...

Chris
Monday, February 2, 2004, at 19:20:28 (ZULU)

Things seem like old times around here...

Handgun country related,

In the opinion of those who have had problems with Para Ord guns, have the guns pretty much always been questionable or is it something that's been a gradual decline? I ask because I seem to have a P14 that is actually worth a damned but it's going on a couple years old now, bought it shortly after the time when they changed the target model name from "Signature Series" to the "Limited" series. Gun works alright and back when I ordered it I had the sense of mind to get the steel framed gun rather than the alloy frame.

Only thing I can say about my Para that has me a little miffed is that it quickly began to wear off it's finish, guess the cast frame just didn't want to take a finish. About 2 months after I got my mitts on the gun it started to show quite a lot of surface wear.

Ohwell, I don't shoot it much anymore anyhow. Too busy buyin up every N-frame S&W in the county to give much of a hoot about a shell shucking semiauto. 2 N-frames in two months, hopefully I'm on a roll here and something will pop up next month as well. Got a nice slightly used 28-2 last month and just today I brought home a nice condition 25-2. Cool thing about the 25-2 is the darned thing has a mis-marked barrel, has a heavy barrel that says "model of 1950" instead of saying "model of 1955" like it should. Supposedly a very few of the mis-marked guns made it out of S&W so we'll see after I send a letter off to Roy Jinks.

Count down to SHOT SHOW, 10 days and counting! Maybe I'll see a couple of yas around, gonna hang there for Sat and Sun hanging for a spell with the Cav Arms guys.

B. Douglas
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 19:46:15 (ZULU)

testing account.

Montrose J Bell
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 20:08:07 (ZULU)

Dennis..........a Leupold 6X40 w/ a duplex works well for your application....that handle makes it too high for my liking though....the one I have is removeable so the glass is mounted on the rail.....As far as "saving comments for someone else", use the scroll key on your keyboard if you see something beneath you........

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 22:21:20 (ZULU)

Ladies / Gentlemen:

Thank you for responses/advice to my Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T inquiry so far. I didn't mention my interest in how the lighted circle/dot system works "in the field". Does it degrade your night vision on the low setting or not? I shoot at night and finding that front sight post on the AR really slows things down...thus the scope/lighted dot interest on my part. Also, does the integral mount fit tightly enough into the AR-15 carry handle to mount/dismount without huge shifts in zero? Finally, which of the "cheek rest" systems works on the AR-15 w/carry handle, which are to be avoided?.

Another piece of information to be taken into account when responding: I've got a 30 cal. long gun set up right for those longer shots (up to 800 yards) so the AR is NOT filling the role of long range rifle in my battery. I just prefer the AR when tramping around as it weighs less and works just fine on small mammals. I consider the AR in my application to be roughly equivalent to the "spotter's rifle" in a sniper team.

Dennis
Utah, United States of America - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 23:22:15 (ZULU)

Back from ABQ with 450 oz. of Art's best. CB will pack the socks in with it and out it goes tomorrow.

Art proudly showed me his latest Emails from grateful troops. Ear-to-ear grin.

Spent $540.00, taking the fund down to $8.13.

But as Art and I were talking, nice lady was buying 2 lbs. of jerky to ship to her daughter, a plebe at USNA. She asked about the three big boxes of jerky, and we told her what we were doing.

She absolutely beamed and immediately gave us $25.00....so we're up to $33.18.

Also requested my card, so she could give it to her hubby, who is a food distributor. We may get some Jolly Ranchers and Granola bars out of this!

Joe, tell the guys about this. The people in this country just want to know HOW to help, there is no lack of desire to help.

It is no surprise to me that people will risk everything to live in the US. We have our problems. It ain't perfect, but I defy anyone to show me a nation of more charitable people on the face of this earth.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 23:29:31 (ZULU)

Chris:

About headspace....

1- This is a major SAFETY issue. The headspace affects how much the case "stretches" at each firing. A lot a stretching after multiple firing/reloading cycles can result in a thing called a "case head separation". The back of the case just pops off. This is really bad and is to be avoided. Hit the literature for some horror stories to back up this comment.

2- You seem to think accuracy should be affected significantly by controlling headspace. Well, in my opinion, the relatively tiny amount of volume difference resulting from the few thousands difference in headspace isn't likely to significantly affect the case volume and therefore the gas pressures in the cases enough to affect your velocity and therefore your vertical impact on a target. Hit a respected reloading publication for a discussion or headspace or call someone on an 800 number. It's a go for safety, probably a dry hole for accuracy/precision in regards to headspace.

3- TIR does matter. It's just a matter of how much precision you really need and what the weapons system is capable of in the first place. Read up on what is to be gained from TIR reduction and then decide how much effort can justify the time you are not spending shooting and are instead working on TIR reduction. I suspect learning about a few techniques to improve reloading equipment set up will yield almost all of what you might get from TIR improvement. After that it gets into an excersize in technical ecstacy which diverts your attention away from the trigger time which is the most proven method known to improve your real life performance.

Hope this helps....

Dennis
Utah, - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 23:38:09 (ZULU)

Dennis, I forgot to mention, I shoot at night for a living, not a hobby. You said you shoot at night. Are you spotlighting or moonlighting? If you are spotlighting, the lit reticle will not be of any advantage at all. The dot is great for rapid sight aquisition for man sized targets between5 and 50 meters, and will get you there on a man sized target out to 250 or so. It is not and was not meant to be used for precision target work at intermediate distances. The ACOG with chevron or crosshair is a bit better, but still not ideal for your situation.

If you are moonlighting, ANY lit reticle will destroy your night vision. Post reticles with heavy bases are made for this sort of low light work. Schmidt and Bender or Zeiss glass are good choices.

For the money you want to spend here, and I'm sure the folks here will back me up, you can easily afford to buy a nice flat top upper and mount a 6x50 scope in medium Weaver style rings. That would be my reccommendation. Detatchable handles generally have very good sights in them for general use, or leave it alone and switch uppers as needed. This is my humble opinion, but I am in the thick stuff in Florida four nights a week shooting coyote and hog. The experience of over two thousand animals shot after sunset gives my opinion a bit of weight, I should think.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Monday, February 2, 2004, at 23:48:35 (ZULU)

Hi all, long-time lurker here, recently registered. I've got a question for the collective wisdom here, and the truly knowledgeable regarding a Vari X III 3.5X10 M3 Long Range:

I’m confused. I bought one a while back. Came with four turrets. I bought another recently. Came with three turrets. All rotate CCW for positive elevation changes. Per “roster” advice traded the .223 turret for a 30-06 turret. BUT, the 308 AND the 30-06 turrets are different between the two scopes. The turrets are marked as follows:

308M

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 X100M

47 39 32 25 19 13 9 5 2 0

308 Win 168gr.

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 X100YDS

43 35 28 22 17 12 8 5 2 0

30-06

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 X100YDS

39 32 26 21 16 12 8 5 2 0

30-06 Sprg 180 gr. (edited)

11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 X100YDS

44 36 30 24 19 15 12 8 5 2 0

NOTE: These are the approximate corresponding marks, some are slightly “off” the center of the “click,” below.

So, a ‘lil help is requested. Which turret best tracks the 175 SMK at 2675 fps ? Or do I need another turret completely ? It seems that one of them should close…

Thanks!

Mark

Mark
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 00:12:33 (ZULU)

MArk,

the 30-06, with 1K being 39moa is the one you want. It works great on the few rifles we've tried it with. Be warned though, in summer you'll be high, and you may be a touch low below frezing. That is, once you pass 500yards. Inside 500, it's pretty much dead on no matter what the weather.

Dennis,

I'm familiar with how to eliminate TIR and case head seperation. I was looking at it from a accuracy standpoint, not a safety standpoint. I figure Lapua keeps the headspace short so that it'll work in all the established chambers without a need to size it back. I was shocked to see .013" stretch on the initial firing though. The .005 to .007", I'm not all that worried about, but if I can make .002 to .003" work and keep easy bolt manipulation I'll change.

I'm on the 7th firing of some of the Lapua cases, most FL sized to .005" under,, and the necks are starting to go,, but the case heads and bodies are fine.

What I was looking at is dispelling a myth about the inaccuracy of cases with more than .003" headspace, and the need to use fire formed rounds for peak accuracy. I don't see it being an issue in all but the most accurate of bench rest rifles,, but I'm open to be told I'm wrong,, so ong as I'm told why.

Thanks for the insite mang.

KenM,

I'm sending you a mail, no attachments.

FatBoy...

Chris
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 00:30:53 (ZULU)

M3 turret: the one you have marked "30-06 Sprg 180 gr." matches my .308 Winchester load almost exactly - it's launching a 175 grain Sierra MatchKing out the muzzle at 2675 fps or thereabout. It gets to 1000 yards on 36 minutes of angle. So, what will match a given turret would appear to depend on what your bullet is doing. OTOH, when I switched from the M3LR to a 6.5-20X50M1, I just memorized the elevation data for that load, and then copied it on to a little card which is taped to the inside of the rear scope cap in case I forgets, so I don' need no steenking BDC. :-)

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 00:43:05 (ZULU)

Steve Burris, I tried sending you an e-mail via SC mail. It bounced. Please drop me a line, and I'll reply..... it's about the 180B. Thanks!

For you gunnies that are going to be at the gathering, if you've got a FRS radio, you can catch me at 1-10 or 9-11, depending on how busy the freqs are. Might want to try both. Elsewise, I'll be trying to catch up with Mike and the crew about lunch time. Saturday is the only day for me, assuming I can get in LOL.

Bravo
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 01:34:18 (ZULU)

Robert you wrote " If you are moonlighting, ANY lit reticle will destroy your night vision. Post reticles with heavy bases are made for this sort of low light work. Schmidt and Bender or Zeiss glass are good choices." thats not exactly true with regards to the illuminated reticle, you just have to be careful how you use it. Ive got an immuminated S&B 3-12x50 PMII, and i regularly use the illuminated reticle, providing you don't turn it up to high on the brightness control it doesn't interfear with your night vision to badly at all, i usualay have it set about the 2 or 3 mark,(no higher) i can just see a faint glow in the cross in the middle, it makes pin pointing the reticle against a dark (pig) back ground quite a bit easier. Hhat i like about the Schmidt and the Zeiss control is that is is stepped, you can check how bright you want it and then move the control to the in between position, so when you want it on, you only have to move it a little, i have just put a doctor optic 2.5-10x48 on my marlin, it has a progressive illumination control and i don't like it, i'll sell the thing and buy another S&B. You are right in saying that the thick post reticles from S&B etc are good for night time work, the Nr 1 post reticle is a good choice, i used a 2.5-10x56 schmidt with this ret for a while and it was fine. I can still remember when that dutch bloke who used to appear on this site, but is now to busy chasing dutch chicks ( Marco where are you?) came over here to shoot a piggy, 3 of us sat up a tree stand and when a piggy appeared it was a nice sized boar, marco turned the reticle on on his NXS and blinded the 3 of us, the sod was set so bright you could have used the scope as a torch, he managed to get it truned of and regain night vision enough before the boar disapeared, result was a nice one shot kill with his Sako trg, and his first big game animal.

The problem when buying illuminated reticle scopes is that you it aint ever to dark in a gun shop, and you don't know how they perform until you get em in the dark, hence my Doctor Optic, well it was cheap,, I'd be looking for maybe a SUSAT or and ACOG for the application bieng asked about. me i want a 1.5-6x42 S&B with reticle illumination, for my 1895M, this will do for night hunting and for driven running boar/deer, i'll probably settle for it with a thick post reticle and second hand.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 01:35:53 (ZULU)

Chris, I have nothing so far. AOL might have dumped it into spam folder and I just dumped it.

Try it again, and if that fails I'll get you my .mil address, which is pretty good, even if remote access is a PITA. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 02:05:17 (ZULU)

I like posting the warnings I get because there is always someone that can find out if it is real or not. Thanks for the heads up.

Double Tap
Indiana, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 02:10:08 (ZULU)

Chris:

Thanks to you and the others for the useful info. Allow me to apologize for my pointed fixation on safety...I never know how much experience any reloader has and hit the safety aspect hard for obvious reasons. No insult to your intelligence is intended.

As to TIR I can offer you the following additional information:

I measured a case (500 rounds per case at the time, Lot 321720XXXX) of Federal Gold Medal .308 Winchester match with a NECO runout gauge at approximately the point where the bullet diameter was at .308" with the following results:

less than or equal to 0.001 TIR = 40 rds = 9%

less than or equal to 0.002 TIR = 154 rds = 33%

less than or equal to 0.003 TIR = 179 rds = 39%

less than or equal to 0.004 TIR = 69 rds = 15%

less than or equal to 0.005 TIR = 18 rds = 4%

(all above data partitioned in increments of 0.001 inches, not cumulative in terms of TIR)

If my shooting is up to it I can get 3/4 MOA out of this lot number. It's likely a better shooter than me can get 1/2 MOA. This from a PSS (a copper mine in the factory barrel results from every firing session but is does go where it's pointed so I suffer the cleaning in return for the results it produces). This suggests to me that if you can keep your .308 Winchester to about 0.002 to 0.003" TIR or less then the reloader is probably getting everything worth having out of a weapons system intended for sport/tactical but not benchrest use.

If I could get access to a case or such of the ammo I would be interested to measure a newer lot number of 168 and/or 175 GM ammo. The same thing done for the .223 Gold Medal stuff would suggest a benchmark for the smaller .22 caliber ammo. Has anyone else done this already?

Dennis
Utah, United States of America - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 02:15:48 (ZULU)

KenM,

I sent it via SC email,, so it may take some time. I'll re-send it in a few minutes.

Dennis,

No offense taken or implied. Safety is a big concern, and I didn't mean to discount it as an issue,, especialy when headspace is being discussed. Good that you brought it up. Thank you.

The TIR on my rounds must be decent, as they tend to go between .2" to .5" at 100y, and a 2" five shot group at 600 is not uncommon. I use a bushing die, and with the Lapua brass I get acceptable accuarcy results.

I was thinking I may have the new barrels cut to minimum HS, and size the new cases accordingly. In theroy, I could go to a very tight HS, and eliminate almost all growth from new cases. In real life, it would likely be spitting hairs and be more a PITA than useful.

This is what happens when you go from shooting 2 to 5 matches a month to nothing. I'm going crazy with all this stuff.. I need some recoil therapy!!

FatBoy...

Chris
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 02:33:53 (ZULU)

Pete,

I agree for the most part on the lit rets, but not from many. Most IR's sold here are too bright. I knda like the new Springfields IR setup,just got one for the wife's stick. Still gotta go with the good ole German no.1 for night work though. Anyone use the Firefly reticle yet?

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 02:35:50 (ZULU)

602P is a hoax, please do not forward.

Debunking info:

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/bill602p.asp

or click on my name

Snopes is a wonderful source to check for hoax debunking.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 02:48:11 (ZULU)

Pursuing al Qaeda in Pak:

"At the start of [January], Pakistan massed several thousand troops in and around the town of Wana, near the country's mountainous border with Afghanistan. Using a harsh century-old British method, officials handed local tribal elders a list and issued an ultimatum.

If 72 men wanted for sheltering Al Qaeda were not produced, they said, the Pakistani Army would punish the tribe as a group, demolishing houses, withdrawing funds and even detaining tribe members.

Several days later, several thousand tribal elders held a jirga, or council, and agreed to raise a force of their own to find the wanted men. In the last two weeks, the tribes have handed over 42 of them. Tribal members, meanwhile, have bulldozed and dynamited the homes of eight men who refused to surrender."

Click my name.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 03:02:44 (ZULU)

My 2cents on lit reticles. Here in the outback of Montana its perfectly legal to shoot any "nongame" animal (certain humans excepted) at any time of day or night outside the general big game season. I have a Burris 1.5-6 with a lit dot... maybe 1 minute right in the center of the fine crosshairs... on my AR... I'm thinking the only thing better would be nightvision (Litton?) or thermal imaging. Particularly right now with snow on the ground, no artificial light necessary so long as the moon's out. Of course when its like that, the cold weather reliability of your weapon will be sorely tested. Up here it aint' "really" cold until it gets something below -10 farenheit.

Anyway, a small dot works very well for me...as does the 1.5-6 Burris.

Steve
Butte, MT, America - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 03:03:45 (ZULU)

Has anyone used the camelbak Motherlode or the BFM? What are the pros and cons of them?

Double Tap
Indiana, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 03:32:41 (ZULU)

Ammo Country-

Is the CMP M118LR ammo a good deal at $399/920rnds?

Anyone shoot it? If so, how would you compare it relative to FGMM or Black Hills?

Thanks,

LTChip

LTChip
PLACERVILLE, CA, - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 04:22:03 (ZULU)

LT Chip,

I like the M118LR ammo. I bought 8k rounds of it and bought a couple of extra thousand rounds for another frequent poster. Email me off line and I will send you a box to try if you want or we can hook up on my way up to lake Tahoe some weekend. This ammo is still in stock at the DCM. I actually ordered another case for a buddy today. It is about 1/2 the price of Federal, and is about 1/2 moa or better ammo and the brass is top notch as opposed to the butter soft Federal brass.

Back in November I did a side by side comparision of the M118LR and Federal 175grGMM and the 175gr Black Hills out of a GA Rock rifle and another 24" Obermeyer tactical Rem 700 from GA as well.

With 5 round strings the folowing results were obtained:

The Federal averaged 2620 and 2581 with ans ES of 33 and 27

The M118LR averaged 2594 and 2617, and 2618 with and ES of 54 and 81 and 43

and the BH had an average of 2645 and 2619 with and ES of 32 and 29

I was using an Oheler 3, and my results might be flawed due to the fact that I had my screens very close (4-5 feet) to the muzzle.

I think it is worth it (obviously demonstrated throught my purchase), and I don't know how long that it will be available.

Michael

Michael
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 08:06:55 (ZULU)

Gents,

This article alludes to a logistics goat-screw,

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/politics/03ARMY.html?ei=5062&en=6cee11e34772434e&ex=1076389200&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 08:18:15 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt and Doc - good seeing you last weekend. Feel free to hit the email below . . .

There are too many toys to take for a range trip, ha. The fun of shooting with others - movers in the wind were interesting!

John L

John Leveron
Mid-MO, USA, - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 09:45:31 (ZULU)

Daily Wrap up...

The head space issues presented intrigue me. I am inclined to think that if the case and case neck length is maximized and the space between the case neck and chamber neck area is kept as small as is safe then this would provide the best consistency in chambering and bullet orientation to the lands from shot-to-shot (Minimum headspace - maximum case length). A longer case suggests to me a slightly shallower angle into the lands for each bullet. How much additional precision this might add to a rounds performance I can't say. It's just a theory I decided to throw out for responses.

Thanks for the flat top suggestion. I'm aware of what having sighting devices being close to the bore center does for trajectory. I'm using coyote hunting to get practice between High Power seasons with the AR. Thus, the handle and associated sights are actually useful during some parts of the year. Been out of High Power since before the 77 and 80 gr. bullets were released and realize that no matter how much I prefer the bigger bores that in High Power the mouse gun now dominates. I'm not too old (yet) to change when the writing is so clearly on the wall. At least between seasons I'll make the mouse earn its keep doing the varmint patrol. Wonder how long it'll be until I can ignore the whap-twaaang.

The cold temp's mentioned by the Montana man exist here in Utah too. Just this last weekend where I was hunting the temps in dead of night were below minus 10 F without the windchill factored in. The AR functioned flawlessly under these conditions. I'm worried about powder performance under these conditions (current loads use IMR 4198) and am considering switching to H. Benchrest as it is billed as being temp insensitive. Using Varget suggests to me a lot of muzzle flash due to its relatively slow burn rate. Reloading for sub zero temps is new to me. It can be done as the Military ammo can be and is used under temperature extremes with at least adequate performance.

Final question for this session is: Does anyone have suggestions for very cold temp 5.56 loads which don't have a large muzzle flash? Looking back through the archives I recall noticing someone commenting on incredible muzzle flash when using H. Benchrest. This powder is fabled to have extremely good lot-to-lot consistency which when coupled with its temperature insensitivity will I hope allow me to dispense with the need to keep chronographing each lot number to keep a BDC in sync. If it works well on varmints in dead of winter it could be a real possiblity as High Power competition load. I figure to light this stuff with a Fed. 205 and use a heavy crimp to get uniform ignition and keep the flash down. If this won't keep muzzle flash reasonable then I'm hoping someone else knows something I don't to get me where I want to be. Whatever anyone can offer is something I don't have to find out the hard way.

Dennis
Utah, United States of America - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 09:45:32 (ZULU)

Dennis,

Read your last post, and thought, "what's with the muzzle-flash aversion?" Then I read back up through--and realized you shoot at night....Oooohhhh, I get it now...heheh. Tell you what, you keep that air mass over there in Utah! It's a chilly-ass 70 here, with an annoying light northerly breeze of 3-5kts. We're freezin' heheheheh :-) By June--it will suck bad, but for now--we're digging it.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Desert, Oasis, OIF - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 10:43:00 (ZULU)

Dennis,

If muzzle flash is a problem, try vvN133 (N130 if you are using 72gr and up bullets). Very clean powder with little flash at all. You could also use tritium for your sight markings to eleiminate "losing" your front sight post in the brush.

As far as using coyote plugging to help with competition, I can't see where it would be benificial. The two things are polar opposites if you are hunting at night! It would be like benchresting a thirty pound rifle to get ready for a SASS three gun match. It's hard for me to figure how snap firing when you glimpse a target could help with the slow, controlled pace of a HP match, but to each his own. Sounds to me like you enjoy pluggin the lil bastards as much as any other varminter, and also compete. If you need to justify it to the wife that way, fine. Just remember, we're all shooters here. We know better.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 12:31:41 (ZULU)

Joe D; box arrived---would ya mind if we drink the countrytime lemonade at my HQs? I gave away the VFW mega-shipment--and my "team" is still hating me for that! This stuff really cuts the nasty taste of the mineral water we get...

Bruce: Your use of "Packerland Packing Company" boxes made me homesick :-))

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 12:33:19 (ZULU)

Dennis,

for your 223 loads. I use VarGet, 24.3gr under a naked 69gr or 80gr SMK in LC cases. You'll want to work this up, as it may be hot.

The loads are slow, but very accurate inside 300yards.

As far as muzzle flash, I notice nothing with a 20" barrel, no muzzle break/flash hider. BUT this is during the day. If you have some VarGet on hand, load up a 24gr charge and see how she does.

FatBoy...

Chris
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 12:38:31 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Thanx for putting me in touch with John. He's another of the good guys! Really appreciate it. Beer and steaks still stands!

Rob

Robert Martin
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 12:42:46 (ZULU)

Joe,

We were grinnin' when we saw the boxes that Art had put the jerky in, figured it would give you a kick.

The "Morass" article is one that we are still shaking our heads over. CB is in constant amazement that troops coming into a PX from the field are greeted by empty shelves.

They should be walking into a Walmart, with everybody wearing BDU's with "How Can I Help You?" stenciled across the back. If you're gonna be in the rear with the gear, HAVE THE GEAR! I can't begin to imagine your frustration. (Note: Still no contributions from Congressmen or Senators, or from Forbes and Gates!)

Thank God for the folks in this community and people like Art. Joe D. and others like him have done magnificently. My hat is off to all of them.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 15:07:39 (ZULU)

Bruce; perhaps we need to answer the politicians the way I've done in the past. When they call for donations I always tell them, "I'd be glad to donate, in fact, I already have, I sent my money to the NRA and they will be where you will need to pick it up. " I suggest a variation this year. "Well, I sent my money in your behalf to the troops via this guy in New Mexico!"

The tenacity of this group to keep donations going is phoenominal. Locally on programs here most of the donations have dried up with time as is normally expected in these kinds of things. My hats off to all you guys. Lost a couple of local guys last week. Their families are true Americans and that's about all there is to say. No whining or regrets just pride. I'd pray I had their courage under those circumstances.

Anyway Varget isn't famous for a lot of flash, hence some of it's popularity with Snipers by the way. And Benchrest was tested on Coyotes and Benches by your Coyote snuffer local. It works very similar to varget and when corelated with the same recommended load for a given speed shoots almost exactly the same impact point. I still use varget but Bench Rest is better in Temperature variations in hot ones anyway. I don't know about extreme cold as we didn't test it in the Winter.

Coyote hunting corelates pretty much with tactical Sniper operations but most coyote hunters are pretty familar with Bench rest shooting and competetion also. At least the Western ones are. Take 10 guys off the bench and the coyote guys will outperform in the tactical arena more often than not. They are used to shooting in poor light with the sun positioned in their eyes from contorted shooting positions and at moving bobbing bouncing targets that would turn a bench rester into a confused observer quite quickly. They are familiar with camo techniques and how to get into a country without everything in the area knowing they are there. They use binoculars better than just about anyone you'll meet and know the value of a rifle that can be carried as opposed to wheeled. Night hunting is a seperate set of problems if by NV equipment. Not to mention the physical drain of sub zero temperatures. Bench resters, don't know much about suppressing a cough.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 16:10:38 (ZULU)

yote' bait,

Very well put, from one plugger to another.

edit to ask.. are you goin to the NATE dog and pony show in Nashville in Feb.?

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 16:56:08 (ZULU)

Joe M: Another perspective on the logistics goat-screw. I'm familiar with many of the models that military logistics people use. To be fair, they have a hard problem.

Operations are modeled as a big system of equations. Any error that occurs anywhere in the system is distributed throughout the sysetm. The form that error takes is usually unpredictable.

Bruce has a good story about trouble-shooting an automotive system that is somewhat similar.

There are several types of possible error: Enemy actions are not accurately predictable. Equipment will interact in ways that are not possible to predict. If there are 5,000 pieces of equipment there are 2^5,000 possible interactions. That's a number something like the number of atoms in the galaxy, so nobody knows how it will end up working. Error in modeling the system will kill you. Some of your top logistics people have never had muddy boots and will make screw-ups that any buck seargent would catch. Intel errors will totally muck up the system. Thank Frank Church, Jimmy Carter, Stansfield Turner and the Congressional Democrats for much of that.

"Friction", "Fog of War",..., same stuff, different day.

I'm not making excuses for dog stupidity. The men need water and ammo for God's sakes. But putting that many people and that much EXTREMELY complicated gear that far away, and mounting operations that successful is a stunning act of organizational competence.

One of my brothers spent a good while as a radar, fire-control, computer, etc guy in the Navy. He's pretty clever and has some good insights. He said that the only reason we win is that our enemies are even more f****d up than we are.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 16:59:26 (ZULU)

CDC - I am happily retired from a large company with many problems, which was eventually bought out by a competitor and most of the senior managment fired. Some of my friends still working there, who hoped for better things, found that the problems were identical or similar under new management, after which we concluded that all large companies are broken in similar ways, and those similarities were what allowed them all to remain in business.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 17:40:55 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon,

I remember reading in Harvard Business Review, in the early 90s, about the top logistics guy in the army during the first gulf war. He was tough as nails, and told of how he operated. He was not a man who tolerated excuses, from above or below. He was given a large amount of credit for making GW-I the success that it was. IIRC, he was one of only a handful of people to have received a field promotion. If I find the article, I'll forward it.

As far as systems and complexity, it's only getting worse, and optimization is often a form of mental masturbation. I try to use the 3% rule. That is, you gotta be 3% smarter than whatever it is you're working on............

Duman
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 17:54:44 (ZULU)

MAJ Joe,

Having trouble with my Email.

Please confirm receipt of message I sent off-Roster at 1800 ZULU Re: Shipment.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 18:14:02 (ZULU)

Gentlemen (ladies apparently not present):

What's been said about low flash powder is quite reassuring to me. The flash issue just jumped out at me lately as my partner is using a short barrel -06 with a night muzzle flash like a 16" battleship cannon (commercial ammo). End result is great but I don't want to end up the same way with my stick. Hunting yote and naval engagements are to be kept separate, in my mind at least. We set up in places where a quick second shot is sometimes possible. My interest in muzzle flash is to facilitate second shots/same dog, multiple shots on multiple dogs. Hoping to catch a yote pack out hunting for deer at night. If I get motivated for one of the tactical competitions the same load might work there too.

Don't have/use NV. We've been using moonlight and are getting along decently. Just lookin into optimizing with a better night sight system. I'm not sure if NRA HP allows/or cares about tritium on the sights. But it's an excellent point well taken here. At least with a scope I can take it off and go straight to the match with the iron sights. I'll probably have to give up on this idea and end up with a second upper assembly but I dream now of less equipment to mess with, not more.

New poster to this board. Will offer info, participate, wait for constuctive feedback. With no beer and pretzels this seems the most promising route currently available. If I'm sometimes shootin under you please endure as I bracket and establish the correct range. I enjoy reloading high precision ammunition. Different conditions (like night firing) to load for appeal to me as it breaks up the monotony and forces me to learn new things.

Enjoyed the quip about justification. My attitude on using the AR for coyote as a prep for HP was based on the idea that the more you handle it the more familiar it becomes. Up to now I've always used the Garand/M1A type rifle setups. If the HP targets moved like yote that would end "cleans" for the next century. I just got myself into hot water with the significant other by introducing her to the shooting sports. The only justification going on around here is me trying to keep her away from my "personal" shooting irons. I love this problem...

Dennis
Utah, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 19:15:09 (ZULU)

When I was in school, I used to hanker for the opportunity to "engage my wit" vs those immensely complex industrial and logistic problems which hold back mega-corporations.

Now that I have been in the job for closing on two decades, I believe I can say with some degree of confidence that the problems are all simple, and people who describe them as complex... well

medicjim
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 19:51:03 (ZULU)

Bruce: Email Received. Bona Fides: I need some luck! Heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 19:55:27 (ZULU)

Ace; thanks! I always need encouragement. Others will disagree with that remark though. Some say "he needs no encouragement"... but anyway I'm screwed down pretty tight here this year and probably won't even get to Tulsa this spring but I'd like too. It's one I've never made before. I've not even done the yote hunting justice this year.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 20:01:14 (ZULU)

Joe M: "The funniest part of the whole thing is: we mid-level loggie toads know what is going on---the higher echelons don't even know there "was" a problem! "

I hear you.

medicjim: "I believe I can say with some degree of confidence that the problems are all simple, and people who describe them as complex... well"

Here's one. You are unable to find the shortest route between all American cities with populations over 1,000,000. That one is trivial compared to military logistics problems.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 20:20:16 (ZULU)

CDC - "Here's one. You are unable to find the shortest route between all American cities with populations over 1,000,000. That one is trivial compared to military logistics problems."

That is a compound problem, it's component parts are all simple. To solve the problem, you must simply address each of the component parts, plus assemble a simple process to work them in concert.

"can't do" is very un-American.

medicjim
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 20:32:22 (ZULU)

Who says we aint got no beer and pretzels!

Everyone would love your problem ; )

Welcome to 'yote whackers anonamous.

And where are our ladies anyway?

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 20:44:47 (ZULU)

medicjim: Not even partial credit. You're in over your head.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 21:42:40 (ZULU)

Ladies on the board: caught the wife lurking, AGAIN! She loved the cat journal, it was quite brilliant. Pretty cool. I gotta draw the line if she starts spitting and cussing though. HI HONEY!

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 22:00:06 (ZULU)

"That is a compound problem, it's component parts are all simple. To solve the problem, you must simply address each of the component parts, plus assemble a simple process to work them in concert."..............In other words........drive, and watch the odometer..........ROTFLMAO............

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 22:27:15 (ZULU)

Mark Smith: If there are 50 cities and there's a shortest route directly between each two then there are 50! possible routes between them. 50!=50*49*48*...*3*2*1. That's much more than 30,414,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 routes.

Better top off your tank.

Real life logistics problems tend to be much tougher than that.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 23:15:12 (ZULU)

Math country...

Shortest route problems are called "the travelling salesman problem" by mathematicians. There is a whole category of problem solving techniques, notations and methods devoted to that category of problems. The general description is linear programming.

Vast amount of literature on the topic...

http://www.math.princeton.edu/tsp/ or click on my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 23:17:09 (ZULU)

Wisconsin CCW failed by (1) Vote.

The BALLESS co-auther DEM. Sherman Changed his vote to no.

We are now officially a Commy state!

This SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 23:43:59 (ZULU)

WI Assembly just ovted on the PPA override.

Votes needed: 66

Votes recieved to override: 65

It pretty much hinged on Rep. Sherman (D). He WAS A CO_SPONSOR of the original bill. Sided with Doyle, for some sort of back slapping deal I am sure. Party politics and all that.

Sorry fellas, we tried.

I am seriously debating open carrying now, when I don't have my company truck (company policy). Can't quite afford a run to the WI Supreme Court yet though. We'll see. If it made the news, it would be worth it.

Edited to add: Joe you beat me by 51 seconds!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 23:44:48 (ZULU)

Rod: Yep, it's the "traveling salesman" or "Russian circus" problem and you're on the right track.

This is a small problem and it is not easy. The problems the DOD deals with are HARD!! My hat is off to them.

CDC'
Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 23:45:30 (ZULU)

Sorry Goeff,

I just had to vent, Swearing in from of my kids just was not an option.

Thanks,

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 23:51:50 (ZULU)

Ladies Lurking.......

Child Bride hits this forum at least once a day. I'll bet Sweetie does, too.

We need to get more of you posting and bring some civility to this site.

As Mark Twain observed, women are necessary, if for no other reason than to remind you to take your boots off the mantle.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 23:55:18 (ZULU)

CDC, the military answer to your question would be accurate, but the real answer would be "It doesn't matter, we can't do that due to Force Order 1034.17A"

We have lots of smart people, but we don't have lots of people like Maj Joe, who are focused on supporting the troops, and thus the mission. As long as folks find it easier to say "no" due to stupid regulations, you'll have problems like that described in the NYT.

Chris, got the E-mail. Will get to it shortly. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 00:15:48 (ZULU)

CDC - you are gonna make one hell of a professor in your chosen institution of higher learning... you have the requisite arrogance and related ignorance. Please stay there for your own safety...reality is gonna be a big downer for you.

Would you believe I was actually foolish enough to interpret your scenario as one that was relevant... vs the theoretical spew that you actually intended...real, practical logistics problems do not reside in the rhelm of theoretical analysis of shortest route, given all possible variables...do you try to solve problems in your relationships with the opposite sex with overly complex math too? Try "I'm sorry, I was an arrogant dolt"... it will come off as genuine at least.

Logistics requires hard work, a 'can do' attitude, a simple but effective methodology and an innate ability to learn from one's working environment. We have a frequent poster in the log. field that embodies all of those traits.

medicjim
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 00:59:16 (ZULU)

Joe & Geoff,

I too, just got the bad news. I'm sure my county board members and my equally cowardly sheriff are thrilled.

Was just thinking about the supreme court thing too Geoff. big $$

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 01:51:59 (ZULU)

Residents of Wisconsin I feel sorry for you about the loss but can you clear something for me. You can carry open but not concealed? In Indiana I was told by a Police officer we can carry open or concealed but they would rather it be concealed because there is alot of people that don't know you can carry a pistol legaly with a permit. Is there a link that tells all the rules for all the states about Concealed Carry regulations?

Double Tap
Indiana, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 02:35:05 (ZULU)

And now to something a little more shooting related.

Rifle shooting even.

A traveling gunsmith.......

No, no, no.

The gunsmith is stationary, as is the shooter. They both live in cities with populations less than 100,000.

The 'smith is in Oakland City, Indiana, the shooter is out in the middle nowhere Utah. The middle of nowhere is significantly south of Bountiful.

How long will it take Amerika's second largest freight carrier to get the package from one to the other, and what is the shortest route?

Who knows, but UPS (or as I refer to them, OOOOPS!) "misplaced" it for four days, so the odds are it came from Indiana via Twentynine Palms, College Station, Fort Lauderdale, and New Haven. More than likely in that order.

My partners stick, henceforth referred to as "the twig" due to it's lightweight contours and a barrel length only Patron Bill and I could love, arrived today.

This is the second trip to Geoff for the twig, and it comes back so much better each time, I'd like to see it go back to Geoff again solely to be able to personally see what Geoff could do to top what he's already done.

Patron feline slayer, you'll be happy to hear that Geoff took your recommendations completely, and even improved on them just a touch. Both technically and aestetically.

For those of you needing a gunsmith, we can highly recommend Geoff. So can many others, from national champions to 'yote slayers, down the food chain to folks like my partner and myself.

It could be that there are better smiths out there, but I doubt I'll ever figure it out on my own. I'm not going anywhere. When I get everything I want, and expectations are exceeded as a policy, I see no reason to try anywhere else.

Needless to say, it looks like we've got to go shooting again. Ah, the joys of being a spotter.

Kill, I'm sorry to hear about your cowardly little piggie there.

Redress greivances my butt. Isn't that part of why we declared independence?

This was edited to remove gratuitous political commentary.

Bravo
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 02:41:13 (ZULU)

medicjim: Make a gift of yourself to FedEx or an Airline. They'd just s**t to be blessed with a natural genius like yourself.

I'm a craftsman at one trade, a journeyman at two more and can get by at several. I've worked at everything from guiding big game to running heavy equipment, ran dozens of construction crews up to a hundred guys, but truly appreciate your warnings concerning the "real world" and my obvious ignorance.

I'm gratified but a little startled to learn that problems like the "traveling salesman" has no application. You should tell the professors of Operations Research departments of the nearest universities that you have determined that they are wasting thier time and they can all go home.

Now go annoy someone else.

Ken M: Absolutely agreed. Here's a story of institutional stupidity: Field problem. Defensive position. Foxholes with overhead cover, concertina. Big truck pulls up with BIG trailer piled full of concertina. Grunts tear up mule-skin gloves and bleed to untangle stuff and toss it in big pile. Grunts untangle stuff again and string it. Problem over. Grunts unstring it and toss it in another big pile. Grunts then untangle it again and toss it jin another pile back on big trailer.

As you know, untangling concertina is like knitting barbed wire, and is hours and hours of absolutely unnecessary painful work. Any reasonably coherent construction apprentice would have had the brains to knock together a rack that would easily have held the stuff. It never occurred to the brass.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 02:43:43 (ZULU)

It was a ex VP from FEDEX that recruited me for my current position, where I troubleshoot logistics issues related to a high volume, multi-state fulfillment network for the largest player in the industry. I manage issues with daily volumes in the millions, just in time inventories and 'failure is not an option' performance standards simply because we deal in essential meds which people must have.

I was also a logistics tech with a USAR team that deployed and went to work hours after two buildings fell on 9/11. I was just a cog in a system that worked miracles that day, but I will go to my grave beaming with what was acomplished in the name of brotherhood and humanity.

I am also certified to teach the logistic system used to manage wildfires in the US... seems to work OK, but of course, the scale is small when compared to a 100 man construction crew.

I have also dynamically managed emergency incidents as a medic chief, a fire chief and a HazMat Specialist... a MASTER at three separate trades if you will. Twenty years in the making.

I am an expert in logisticts issues on a scale you DO NOT UNDERSTAND. It is simple and you are wrong.

Shut up and sit down.

medicjim
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 03:01:31 (ZULU)

Jim: What do you think you know about the real world. You've never sweated fixed overhead, made a sale, made payroll or turned a profit.

"I am an expert in logisticts issues on a scale you DO NOT UNDERSTAND."

That's granted. I can't even find "logisticts" in the dictionary.

Scram. Shoo, shoo.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 03:20:50 (ZULU)

The best numbers I ever learned was when Grandma told me to count to ten before I go back through the swingin doors or get back up.

Dennis; If I first mistook you for someone I had spoken with before... my apology please? I've tried the NV myself and what you're doing is bushel more fun. NV is like working inside a barrel with only one peep hole.

Bravo,I can't wait to find out.... "the rest of the short story".

A conspiracy between minds persists I can see....

Brogers
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 03:41:30 (ZULU)

Kansas just had another CCW law introduced. It will pass the legislature and be vetoed by our fem. Governor. These little items always get defeated by one vote. Gives the other side something to blame the other side with come election time. IT's happened a couple of times here before. Until WI and KS are both overwhelmingly for CCW it won't happen. In this state they want so many rules and regulations tacked to it, it wouldn't be worthwhile anyway. We do have the right to defend outselves or someone else against lethal attack or what is deemed lethal threat and so far whether you do it with a gun concealed or otherwise hasn't affect any serious outcomes much. Trouble is when you get a Jury outside of Wichita's Liberal Arts district they usually have pretty fair sense of what's right and wrong.

I wandered into a local convenience store with a Beretta 92 coyote polisher in a unconcealed shoulder rig one day. Open carry is spelled out legal here in local city ordinance. I really had kind of forgotten the thing was there but was at the door of the dump before I thought about it. The ancient aged female screaming clerk came from behind the counter insisting for me to get out of there with that gun and insulted my obviously inferior existance. I informed her that what I had was legally displayed and she should call the Sheriff's office if she wanted to check it out. She didn't flinch and persisted that I was quite stupid for thinking of bringing a gun to town. I left quietly except for I told her I might be stupid but at least I wasn't stupid enough to order a ugly 250lb. man with a gun to get out of a convenience store.

Brogers
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 04:04:25 (ZULU)

deleted

CDC'
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 04:15:13 (ZULU)

Patron Bill, I feel your pain.

In retrospect however, it could be that the old bat in question had discerning tastes, and thought little of your Beretta.

If you'd walked in with a 1911A1, she might have offered you dinner and a Swedish massage. Who knows what you might have been offered if it was a 1927 Colt in mint condition.

Give that a try, and let me know how it works.

BAH-HAAAAA!

I carried openly in New Mexico for the same reason. Virtually no problems, other than one extrordinarily similar to what you related.

Bravo
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 04:16:05 (ZULU)

Bravo; you are right on. Had I had my Glock, I would have shot perfect holes in both her donuts. I just didn't want it to get around that I was seen carrying a 9mm.

Brogers
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 04:21:29 (ZULU)

....The benefits of a sharp mind and a big gas tank......Dan,now you see why I was "ROTFLMAO".......I thought this would get gooder 'cause it's always fun to watch the conflict between the "math" guy and the "art" dude...And I usually learn something to boot...Always thought there was good reason that big UPS truck passed my house headed south with my powder, arrows, and bullets, only to see them delivered by a little northbound UPS truck a day later ;)).......I like my windows and doors plumb and square but the shrubs look funny that way......There is a reason engineers are attracted to artists....The concertina was a perfect example.....

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 04:25:15 (ZULU)

300 Win Mag question. I'd like to get you guys' feedback on what weight of bullet you shoot through your 300 WMs. I'm mostly going to be shooting at the range, (600 yds). I'm trying to decide what scope to get...M3 in which case I'll be shooting 190's or M1 in which case I can probably shoot something different.

Just wanted to get your expert opinions.

Thanks.

Corbett

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, NE, - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 04:38:03 (ZULU)

Depity Doug,

Are you familiar enough with the WI Statues to get me a start on looking up the relevant sections pertaining to open carry? Drop me a line off roaster....thanks.

RE: Logistics. Sometimes we learn a subject from different angles, but the results are the same. I am learning logistics from the bottom up rather than the top down. Not being college educated, I always thought college was a way to live off mommy and daddy for an extra 4-6 years and avoid growing up. After all, I did *party* at the UW, just didn't attend classes, and that was my observation. Of course, the 40% of students that I didn't see in the scene actually were studying and sleeping. Now, I have gotten up the ladder far enough that I have hit the no-education ceiling and am being forced to learn the viewpoints, methods, processes, and all the "intangibles" college teaches you. Different paths, same result. Ironically, I passed up an ROTC grad/BA in geology along the way. Our department is transportation. Want fries with that?

Top down or bottom up, I think you can learn or accomplish damn near anything if you are smart, willing to work, and have somewhat of an open mind. In either case, the ability to get results must be respected. Either way, you don't learn it all. That doesn't happen until you are too old, feeble, and cranky to do anything about it anyway! My $.02. Put the pistolas down and have a beer! :-)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 04:39:39 (ZULU)

Corbett, I've always liked the 190 smk's. Shot a fair number of those over the years. I've also liked the 200 smk, which is what I shoot in my RUM now.

You can go Berger or JLK as well, but I don't think there are too many advantages to 600 yards there. Are you using a 'standard' 1/10" twist, and what bbl length?

This is no expert opinion, but I have fun!

John L

John Leveron
Mid-MO, USA, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 04:50:37 (ZULU)

Corbet

190 SMK is my choice hands down in my stick. At the longer ranges 500-1000 they outshine everything else I've tried.I havent tried the Bergers yet, but considering the price difference (and how many rounds I go through)I dont think I will be switchin anytime soon.

Just my far from xpert opinion, the 190SMK is the cats pajamas in the 300WM.

Robert Adcock
Far East, Texas, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 06:05:38 (ZULU)

Just in time for the beer and pretzels....

Broger...didn't take offense at anything presented. Your concern humbly appreciated here.

Got some nice feedback from a Gentleman North of Utah. Seems that Federal Match has a nice lean flash signature. Not surprising as it's often used by law enforcement, et. al. Federal is what I use in the 30 cal for my hunting (varmint, any type) load anyway...use the handloads for practice...so this "problem" may have solved itself. I'll just get the same setup for the AR and hopefully be done with it.

The blurb on the NV makes me feel better. It's really hard not to covet the toys you don't currently have. I've gotten old enough not to settle for less than decent...and Litton (high-grade passive) is far, far from being cheap. But my job has me working with all kinds of high-tech stuff.....and.....yes.....it.....BREAKS. This experience gives me the strength to bypass the wallet unless it's really, really necessary. My back reminds me too when I've got the LBV overloaded. While the mark 1 eyeball holds out it's as low tech as possible for this poor boy.

Just a quick word on College. Nice place to get the math, chemistry, physics, etc., to make use of ballistic information to yield best terminal ballistic effect on chosen target. Very few people there are as wily as ol yote. Is this evolution?

Dennis
Utah, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 10:49:06 (ZULU)

CDC & MedicJim...Why don't you two girls get married so you can do this more conveniently?!? No, wait, it's too entertaining to watch; just stay put. ;0)

Ducking for cover...

Bill McCormick
God bless our troops, in harm's way. - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 13:23:36 (ZULU)

Brack Wilson, SC email coming your way. Let me know if you get it.

Keith

Keith
North Central , WV, - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 13:24:48 (ZULU)

"Also, I will weigh my M1A (Walnut stock, BPT Ltwt. scope mount) with a full 20rd. mag, HK93 A2 w/ 25 rd. mag and w/ 40rd. mag, HK93A3 w/ 25 and 40 rd. mags."

I'll give ya a hand, Bruce. My M1A with glass stock, a full mag and a sling weighs in at 11 lbs. No scope. For comparison, my AR15 A2 with sling and 30 rounds weighs in at 9 lbs.

Hey Bravo! I couldn't figure out why Geoff sent me a new gun, especially when I didn't order one. And it was so small! But cute!

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 13:28:06 (ZULU)

Rich!

Well, after SQ2003 I was beaten with a wet noodle for my white jock strap holster. Had to do a lot of push-ups before I was allowed back on to post!!!

As far as DS goes, be nice, he just had pups. Don't know how long he'll be out - I bet he's sore though (ha!).

David Hornsby
Texas, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 15:20:43 (ZULU)

Mark Smith, how the heck did I get to be the 'art' dude?...my wife, a college educated graphic artist, would take GRAND exception to your characterization <g>. She describes me as "the most analytical, emotionless human being on the planet".

Logistics, medical diagnosis and a bunch of other profesional skills do not 'define' well, and thus defy the best efforts of academia to package and sell en-mass... sometimes you just have to get dirty to learn. Actually, if the profession requires productive, relevant output, I think you always have to get dirty... the A-bomb was not built in a physics lab, the premise was. At the time, Japan wasn't much in the mood to rationalize 'the premise' without the proof.

CDC - You are correct, internet pissing matches only serve to illustrate the shortcomings of both parties. Some day, I will get out to your neck of the woods. I will buy the first beer and we will either find common ground or resolve our differences the old fashion way... either case would illustrate better judgement than pissing in the 'internet' wind.

Bill M - If we all were of the same opinion, life would be dull and we would all be dullards.

medicjim
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 15:21:52 (ZULU)

Good morning or afternoon,

I've been lurking here for a long time.

This is my favorite kind of bar, kind of like the local pilot's lounge.

Once upon a time in a forgotten conflict I was a fighter fixer (bomb nav F111). Replacement parts were made of unobtainium. I learned how the supply paper work system operated and used it to my advantage. The major at material control never figured out how my birds could be combat ready when supply had no spares.

Joe, the system was made to be taken advantage of. The reason you are good is because you started at the bottom.

Able one

Mike Wiseman
Harrison, Oh, - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 15:28:07 (ZULU)

Just read the hot tips articals on the Enfield. An important thing about the Enfield was missed. Features, like the menue for any one of todays better shooters. Box magazine, good click adjustable iron sights, large traget style turrets with solid clicks that repete in the dark or poor light. Accurate? Dam stright it is. I have seen all original WW2 Enfields score 55 out of 50 at 600 and 800 yards. Also a good platform for some of the best scopes.

Rant over.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/uploaded/MJ/20042410655_M3%20ON%20L42%20L%20SIDE%2001.jpg

MJ
On the bay in Monterey, Left Coast, US of A - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 16:08:37 (ZULU)

Medicjim and CDC -

Of course logitistics is much more complicated than it appears. Also, the neat methodology taught in collegetends to get much messier in real life. Nevertheless, it works.

From there, in my opinion, it is a tossup whether it takes more time to use the equations to develop a model which yields an efficient, beautiful solution, or to brute force it to get a solution good enough, but possibly messy. With the advent of Beowulf clusters, the brute force method gets more attractive.

In any case, the example chosen is easily solved. The eight cities with 1,000,000+ people are NY, LA, Chicago, Houston, Detroit, Philidelphia, San Diego, and Dallas. Adding Phoenix and San Antonio, with more than 950,000 (possibly more than 1 nillion by now), yields 10 cities for a possible total of 3,628,800 combinations. 99+% of them can be eliminated by inspection. The cities fall into four clusters - NY & Philly, Chicago & Detroit, Texas, and Phoenix-LA-SD. The shortest route must visit each cluster only once.

Using a table and a simple lookup formula in Excel, I get the shortest route as NY, Philly, Detroit, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Phoenix, San Diego, and LA, for a total of 3850 miles. NY-Philly was selected as an arbitrary starting point, LA would work as well. This took about half an hour to build the distance table and solve it.

And, yes, I have no life. :)

Nope, no logisitics backround as such, but balancing cut and fill sections for roadways and solving loads for steel frame buildings use similar methods.

Karl

Karl
Dahm Hot, Tx, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 16:26:06 (ZULU)

Joe M. E-mail to you through the site. Our serves aren't talking again. Let me know if you get it or not.

Bill

Bill McCormick
God bless our troops, in harm's way. - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 16:32:03 (ZULU)

MedicJim you posted: "Bill M - If we all were of the same opinion, life would be dull and we would all be dullards."

Agreed, see Democrat Party.

Bill McCormick
God bless our troops, in harm's way. - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 16:34:05 (ZULU)

Karl: I didn't realize that there were only eight cities of over a million. That means that, given a start at NY, there are 7!=5040 posssible solutions.

That's not enough to be much of an illustration. Let's pick 51 cities for 50!>30000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (3 followed by 64 zeros) possible solutions. Let's say that you can go through a billion possible solutions a second. That means that, working 24/7 you can go through more than 30000000000000000 solutions per year. It would take more than 964424000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (964424followed by 42 zeros) years to find the shortest route. That's about 6 followed by 38 zeros times the age of the universe.

This is a relatively simple problem. Doing what was done in Iraq is HARD!

Joe M and Ken M have pointed out how screwed up supply is. I'm just pointing out that it is amazing that it works at all.

The factorials are right but some of the above numbers are back of the envelope calculations. They're close enough to illustrate the point.

CDC'
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 17:26:12 (ZULU)

CDC.

The problem in Iraq in not due to complexity beyond the capacity of the average Joe. It is due to the natural entropy associated with any system not continously challenged.

Training, effective communication and some real experience (I'm talking command level here) would solve most of the problem. Avoiding descriptions of the problem as overwhelming and massively complex would cover the rest (as it sets the stage perfectly for excuses and buck-passing)

Maj Joe... whack me if I'm wrong. I have not set foot there, you would be the absolute authority.

medicjim
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 17:51:44 (ZULU)

Gents,

Two years ago, I registered after several months of lurking. Within a few weeks of saying "hi" my daughter "Peanut" was diagnosed with Leukemia; and you all just stepped up and really helped out. One or more of ya even tracked us down in the hospital and sent flowers and a teddy courtesy of the roster! It got me through a rough week....

Well, I need some prayers again...my daughter Raegan has what appears to be Chicken Pox. Of course, manifestation means contagious activity for at least the past 24 hours. Diagnosis now being verified...if positive for Raegan, Peanut must receive a immune booster series within 48 hours, and welcome to the isolation ward and some exotic anti virals I've never heard of. Pray that it is not this monster in my house!

My command surgeon (who had no idea why I was asking) gave me the odds. 50-90% mortality, with Peanut being on the better end of less than even. That is something, at least. I kinda lost my aloof academic interest at that point. She then realized what a hammer blow she just laid on me. It wasn't fair to her, but I needed straight answers. My wife does not realize the gravity of this yet. Until she does, at least she is functional.

God bless you good folks here...and god bless the red cross...I may not be here in a few days--but my boys will take care of the goodies and our grunts! But, the prayer I am asking for is the one that keeps me right here. Pray if you do, please. Pray for an all clear or at least that we separated the girls in time...

The waiting is the hardest part. Tom Petty had that much right.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:09:46 (ZULU)

Logistics: It all boils down to the first hurdle in the system. Do you quit? Execute plan B? Improvise a plan B? Blame the hurdle? How that gets answered solves the logistics problems. Fire the guys on either end...and find a bunch of guys in the middle.

The waiting....is...the...

yeah it is!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:18:03 (ZULU)

CDC and Jim stand down and let it rest awhile.

Joe, my daughter had some surgery yesterday to fix a birth defect and I just about crapped myself while waiting to here how she was doing. I have a very slight understanding of how you feel. She came out fine and is feeling much better 24 hours after a surgery that would have kept me in bed for a week or more. Kids are tougher than we are.

All I can offer is all my prayers for your daughter to come through this fats and well. God bless all our children.

Mike

MIkeMIller
CA, - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:27:21 (ZULU)

Bill: A 9MM, a fat lady? All good fun for foolin' around with --UNTIL someone you know sees ya...

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:28:57 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Haven't gotten a new scale yet, but the old one shows the M1A w/ sling and mount (no scope) and 20 rd. mag loaded at 13 lbs.

FAL w/ factory bipod and 20 rd. mag loaded, no scope mount or sling, at 13 lbs.

HK93 w/ A3 stock and 40 rd. mag loaded at 9 lbs.

That scale is real hinky, though. I'll post again on the subject when I get a better scale!

All:

Just got these quotes from a friend, thought I'd pass 'em on.

Scroll past if not interested, but there is wisdom here!

A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.

-- G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.

---George Bernard Shaw

Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.

-- Douglas Casey (1992)

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.

-- P.J. O'Rourke

Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to give at the expense of everybody else.

-- Frederic Bastiat

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

-- Ronald Reagan (1986)

I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the acts.

-- Will Rogers

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free.

-- P.J. O'Rourke

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.

-- Pericles (430 B.C.)

No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session.

-- Mark Twain (1866)

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.

-- Mark Twain

Talk is cheap-except when Congress does it. The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other.

-- Ronald Reagan

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

--Winston Churchill

The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the taxidermist leaves the skin.

-- Mark Twain

We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

--Winston Churchill

What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.

-- Edward Langley

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:43:17 (ZULU)

Joe M,

The box is on the way. And my preyers will be for your family and especially for yur peanut. God bless you and yurs!

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:48:12 (ZULU)

Joe,

The numbers you have for mortality sound an awful lot like the numbers available on the web for the protective action of VZIG (varicella zoster immune globulin) in immunocompromised children. I may be picking at straws, but you may have a picture that is less hopeful than it should be.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6341478&dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/surv-manual/chpt14_varicella.pdf

medicjim
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:48:45 (ZULU)

Gents,

Good news! (yeah, some of ya are just reading my first posts)--don't know if Raegan has the pox yet; but I talked to Peanut's Doctor. He says that with the newest protocol, he has a better chance nursing her through a little chicken pox than he "had" initially with her leukemia! My doc is quoting outdated stats. They've inverted, it is over 90% success. And he has never lost any of the 33 kids that had this same combination, many in worse shape immune-wise than Peanut! This is good news!

Gotta tell ya, I never knew fear until this illness struck my child!

A very relieved Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:52:04 (ZULU)

Joe,

Just read your post about Reagan after I posted my last message.

Rest assured that I and the Child Bride have you and your family in our prayers. Tell Peanut we say "Hi", and to keep well.

Anything we can do from this end, you have but to ask.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 18:53:56 (ZULU)

JOe; Goldurn it. Peanut better be alright. Durn childhood diseases anyway but try not to worry too much. We got meds these days! Odds don't count much were Peanuts concerned if past history means anything.

Flaw in the mathmatics; My Okie logic says anybody been to San Antonio don't want to go to Detroit anyhow. It's a moot formula if you ask me. Fit's me I wanna know the longest way to get to Chicago no matter where the hell I'm at.

Brogers
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 19:02:46 (ZULU)

MedicJim: My brother, you were right, and you were right. Thank you!

Steve and Mike: Go play the lottery NOW! God is listening to ya!

Back to the log stuff one last time I promise: Jim has it dead on; it is command and control. To be brief, we have a ad-hoc headquarters interposed between two warfighting HQs, the subordinate one being the most able by longevity and developed SOPs. The middle C&C HQ is a bunch of short tour throw togethers culled from the parent organization stateside. This is actually a double redundant problem; two co-equal HQs, and shared or overlapped responsibilities. Predictably, things fall through the cracks. As we have built the mighty XVIII Corps into a C/ JTF-Capable Warfighting HQ--so too could any Corps be similarly "plussed" up. Unfortunately, this would create a problem that is paramount: Where would all the generals go if we streamline? Heheheheh. Jim, you bearer of great news, you nailed this one square on the head too!!!!!

Joe M the grinnin' fool!

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 19:06:51 (ZULU)

Joe,

Prayers will remain with both ladies.

My Daughter diagnosed with heart problems at twelve after yaers of wondering what was wrong. Expected to make eighteen maybe. She has ten month old now against docs advice and is a strong 24.

The Lord can and will work things out.

Able One

Mike Wiseman
Harrison, Oh, - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 19:08:26 (ZULU)

Gents,

Thanks all for such a quick response with the prayer. I got the answer from above promptly!

At about 1600 local, I got word thru the redcross--Nicole is planned admittance to a hospital (full stop with that). The lines are jammed with troops tellin' mama they'll be home in x-days; so voice comms were shut out on both ends. I got a follow up email detailing the exposure and the plan. 50th attempt got thru to wife at around 1740. She relayed what was going on and the timeline of measures taken or to be taken. I go to meeting and sit down with my surgeon who dumps the data medicjim cites above. So now I am floored. I begin trying to get thru to my doc back home. About the time I posted my weak humor--I get thru and he says basically the same thing Jim posted (as I am reading that very same info). Did I mention I love speeddial?

These last six hours were the worst so far this tour! But, much less to worry about now!

Wow.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 19:23:02 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Prayers are being said as this is being written, and will continue till this is resolved!

Prayers for you will continue until you are safely back home with your family!

God Bless you all!

Barron Moreland
Cayce, SC, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 20:32:51 (ZULU)

Joe

Very sorry to hear about Peanut. Prayers are headed your direction (cc to upstairs)

CDC-

Yes, if you want to get the absolute best possible combination of routes by testing every single one.

The point is that a human can eyeball the problem and reduce the number of required points by 90+%.

For the example you have of 50 cities, the first step would be to divide the cities into clusters. You can then find the best route between clusters, and the best routes within each cluster. By using a cutoff of, say, 2% improvement, the solution is one that is good enough. Extra effort may result in a more efficient solution, but requires more resources.

Similarly, supply logistics can be (sometimes) simplified. Before starting, go through the catalog and have each item prioritized and given a code which is related in some manner to the item's function. Then get the priorities of the field operations (manufacturing plants) and the transport capabilities, and work down through the priority list. This is the same sort of clustering.

Take auto parts retailing. Every possible combination of supply that puts a 1982 Yugo door handle in the upper half of the list can be thrown out of consideration at the beginning. Same for a 1962 VW head gasket or a 1919 Model T fuel pump. It doesn't matter whether the 1999 Ford 5.0 liter or the 2001 Chevy 3.0 liter oil filter gets there in the first or the tenth crate, so that's another sheaf of solutions that can be eliminated. By the correct prioritizing, enough of the vital supplies get through to keep things moving.

You then make sure there is sufficient slack in the system to send things immediately when they are in sudden short supply in the front depots. Hopefully, this is before they run out on the front or on the manufacturing line. The sudden shipment items get a boost to priority so it doesn't happen again. Institutional memory keeps the priority list shifting so that almost all of the things in demand are there and the things with too high a priority get down prioritized.

The real devil is in the details. I can spout on and on about the approach, but Joe Mahon and others who actually deal with the issue deserve great dredit for actually getting it done. What it takes is a knowledge of what is needed and when it's needed, and how to get it there. The human element (or a career NCO) is the key to getting it done.

Enough on the issue for now. I can only applaud the accomplishment of the logisitics guys (and girls) supplying forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and have more praise for the ones who got it done on the occasions when logisitics and upper management let them down.

Karl

Karl
Dahm Hot, Tx, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 20:36:03 (ZULU)

Joe, Lots of prayers being sent! May things continue to go well!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 21:13:37 (ZULU)

Karl: Yep. One afternoon I pleasurably solved the 23 city "Russian Circus" problem using almost exactly the approach you recommend in the first half of your post. Another guy used simulated annealing and got the exact same answer. As you said, if you add more cities or more parts, pretty soon you have to settle for "good enough".

CDC'
Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 21:13:51 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Prayers for you, your family and your "Peanut" from both my wife and myself. I pray that all will come out ok and she be healthy for a long life....

Rick

Kimbershooter
Disputanta, Va., USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 22:34:45 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Wife and I are both sending our prayers. Hang in there.

Doc

Doc Holloway
Waiting for more snow in the Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 23:03:29 (ZULU)

Yo Joe, email thru the roaster (I'm at work). Reply to either account, whichever you prefer.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 23:09:36 (ZULU)

Joe,

I wish I had words that could make everything better...I do not, but someone else does:

"For I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord. Plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you a future and a hope." - Jeremiah 29:11

I believe what God says to be true...I pray that this encourages you.

I am praying for you and your precious family.

David Hornsby
Texas, USA - Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 23:51:22 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Prayers are on the way. May God give peanut a long, full life and may she someday make you a "pa pa." Thank you and those serving with you for your sacrifice on our behalf. God bless you all.

HDR
OK, - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 00:00:39 (ZULU)

RE: Miss Tropicana pics, I lost all but the ones that I posted

Robert Adcock: what is the BC on that 190 SMK??

168SMK w/75.5gr of IMR4350 works wonders out to and beyond the range specified by Corbett

Ladies and the DR: My wife reads the DR on a regular basis and has learned quite alot about a variety of topics.

EDITED BY SWEETIE: My Scottie runs to the computer every morning and begins to read me the overnight posts, i have to choose whether I want to listen. Also, i ususally have to help him type his posts-they are so short due to his terrific typing talents .......back to lurk mode.

Scott S
Ft Laud, FL, U.S.A. - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 00:42:33 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

<<Gotta tell ya, I never knew fear until this illness struck my child!>>

Just remember that scripture tells us to "Fear Not" 365 times. One for every day of the year. Easier said than done I know, I'm a father too. But they're His words not mine. So I just remind Him of that often. Also remember we're standing in the gap for you sir. Prayers inbound.

Take care,

JWL

John Levens
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 01:04:16 (ZULU)

anger management anyone? heh heh.

ahh ...the duty roster.

brian k. sain
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 02:26:02 (ZULU)

Major Joe, Deepest best wishes sent to you and yours. May Peanut and Nicole prosper and flourish.

Larry & Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 03:09:26 (ZULU)

Joe,

Prayers for the little ones. Keep your head in the fight, dude -- we're pulling for the family back here, too.

My boys downtown: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2004/n02042004_200402043.html

Looks like we'll have close to 20 trophy weapons to give away for the All-Army Championships in March. Six CMP M1s hand-selected to be engraved as Secretary of the Army Trophy rifles. Open to all soldiers, all ranks, all units (including ROTC cadets -- sorry, Charlie, no retirees).

Have swapped out the fiberglass handguard of my AR-10T for the Sparkman Weapons System free float rail forend (sparkmanindustries.com/products.htm)(http://quarterbore.com/kac/ar10ffrail.html).

No more annoying "Ping" from the float tube when dry-firing. Rail space to put more heavy stuff on the gun (she's heavy with the original 24" tube).

Zero'ed the irons at 200, then zero'ed the scope. Took it back to 600 and had just a great old time banging 175s down range.

Will borrow Infantry Combat Developments' new thermal sight and try to stretch the system's legs out when we get back in March. Sounds like Benning wants to run another sniper competition in June.

sinister
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 03:41:03 (ZULU)

double-tap deleted

sinister
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 03:43:29 (ZULU)

Joe,

I will be praying for Nicole. You gotta be the toughest guy here on the roster. Hang in there.

Jim and CDC, (I was preparing to type something witty or as close to it as I could get, but farted and teared up and had to run out of the room). Just remember the shortest distance beteewn to straight lines, is a point. ;)

Rich and David, I heard my name spoken in vain and thought I would check in. And for that little remark David I'm going to slap you Brother-in-law and he can forward it to you. Bee real busy not only with my pups, well my bithces pups. And been repairing range equiptment and keeping the clubs book. I was also rail roaded in as President of the German Shorthaired Pointer Club of SanAntonio. I keep telling everyone I'm an idiot but know ones still believes me till I prove it.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 04:09:48 (ZULU)

Joe, Best wishes for peanut, I'm sure it'll work out. Prayer form filled out in triplicate.

Jody, email inbound. 2 pics, they should be inline, but may end up as jpeg attatchments.

Logistics country: we got a saying that applies here and just about everywhere else as well. There's a million right ways to get things done, but only one wrong way (if it's wrong, it's wrong-no matter how you got there). If you give 100 people the same problem, you'll get 100 ways it'll get done. Who cares, as long as it works?

Sombody pass the pretzells.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 04:20:49 (ZULU)

Does anyone know what height of Badger Rings that I would need for a Leupold Vari X III 4.5 - 14 scope. I think it's a 50mm objective.

Thanks.

Corbett

Corbett Mortensen
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 04:25:28 (ZULU)

Joe M.

You and your family are in my prayers. Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 04:35:46 (ZULU)

Sinister What did I delete? If you are refering to the post about the E-mail tax I was corrected by another member that it was missinformation floating around the net and I don't want to contribute to that. Sorry

Double Tap
Indiana, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 05:05:13 (ZULU)

Corbett,

Standard height rings (.823") will work fine.

Jerry Copeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 05:42:17 (ZULU)

Joe

Your daughter as well as the rest of your family will be included in our prayers. We will include y'all on our prayer list at church also, (no such thing as too much prayer). Please keep us posted. GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY

Scott S

According to Sierra the BC is .533 @ 2100fps and up, .525 between 2100 and 1600 and .515@1600 and under. I have tried some of the lighter bullets but at the longer ranges 700-1000 the 190gr. seemed to work better for me. I tried 150, 165, and 168 but not the SMK168. I am not an expert, or even an amateur bulletologist. I can only speak of what works for me.

I do shoot the 168 barnes XLC as a hunting load. I use a 225yd zero giving me a 275yd max PBR(using a 6"PBD). This is very convenient since I use a 200 yard zero for my 190gr.match loads which puts the 168s on at 225. Thus I dont have to remember to change my zero for each load.

Bobby W

Curry wants to know if the pistol events at SQ04 are gonna be revolver neutral again. He still wants to use his wheel gun, oh well at least he finally started leavin his spear back at the cave.

BY the way I know I can only use one pair of binos while observing the stalk, but would it be legal to take the left side of my 10x50 and tape it to the right half of my 7x30s? ;)

Our entry forms and deposits are inbound today.

Fellow posters

Interesting practice session today, learned something unexpected. If my target will resist exposing itself until the temp is in the thirtys its raining and sleeting with high gusting and variable winds at unknown ranges well past 500yds, then present me with no more than a 16"x24" profile, thier odds of being neutralized by a first round hit are greatly reduced.

Currys targets werent nearly as fortunate! All in all it was a wonderfull day to play outside.

Robert Adcock
Far East, Texas, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 07:41:34 (ZULU)

After living with tape, paint, sleeves and what-all to camo rifles I've finally come up with something that allows fast camo changes, no adhesive or oils, and has little to no potential to change zero. Yarn.

Was traversing through the yarn area of the store on the way somewhere else and was stopped by familiar three color woodland camo yarn. Hmmmmm. Soon after this my better half had knitted (or whatever) several rectangles to match the AR handguards. When finished the knitted rectangle "lays over" the handguard about 3/4's of the way down both sides (sorry to disappoint those hoping for a rifle bootie) such that the shooter's hands can fit under the flaps to directly grip handguard. Elastic strap (3/8" to whatever width suits you) with velcro sewn onto both ends that wraps around the handguard over the knitted piece holds the front and back ends firmly in place. The holes in the knitting work OK for insertion of small foliage pieces. Specify "rough" knitting to help with 3-D effect. Did a few smaller pieces with elastic/velcro for the sight triangle and also to go over the sling attachment points for "hang down" camo w/strings. The barrel got a piece of ladies nylon stockings (color appropriate to conditions) held on with tied yarn or just rubber bands at each end (no real weight added on barrel = no real zero change). It's quick to change, quiet in use, cheap to make, and the colors are as varied as the terrain we all have to deal with. The main drawback I can see with this concept is the blockage of the cooling system...but then...full auto fire isn't the typical use for our rifles anyway. Also, if on a rifle equipped with a front carry "assault" type sling the added height from the knitted piece can potentially leave the sling interfering with the sight picture. More or less depending on the rifle/sights.

Tried this concept out when going from snowless Southern Utah desert floor to very snowy Northern Utah elevations while hunting last week. I felt it worked pretty well at breaking up the rifle outline and matching it to my clothing./camo system. Switching this camo system out was fast as we tried different terrain types searching for coyote concentrations.

The possibility that this might help somebody hunting or especially in the military/law enforcement dealing with a supply system that just isn't supplying what's needed for the situation at hand prompted me to offer this concept for consideration.

Hope this is helpful / interesting.

Dennis
Northern, Utah, - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 10:27:45 (ZULU)

Yep, I can see it now. Right after I ask my wife to knit me a scarf for my rifle and I pick all the no.30 birdshot out of my ass, I'll be over at Dennis' house asking to borrow his yarn rag to keep my ears warm!

Robert Martin
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 12:07:40 (ZULU)

Sinister,

Glad to see the "in theatre" men are gettin quality trigger time. I'm actually surprised but pleased. Thanks for the link. Also, the new AR10 handguard ad says "no hardware included", isn't everything needed already on the rifle?

Joe M.

Forwarded email to lighten your day, N/A. More prayers from the burned out church.

Just to further encourage your faith in humanity... the lady on the church board (who also owns the property the church used to sit on) has told the rest of the board that if the current preacher stays she will not turn over the insurance check to rebuild the church. How's that for a christian attitude?

Double tap,

You're killin me dude. :))

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 13:43:38 (ZULU)

Sinister -

I saw where you are signed up for the Orange Blossom Regional later this month at Port Malabar.

Are you going to be there for the AMU clinic with your boys? I signed up for the clinic in hopes that your guys can show me how to make them little boolit holes come closer together! :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 13:55:36 (ZULU)

Joe, two things. First, prayers are with your girls, and you too by default you rotor head (LOL!) Second, if there's anything I can do for your family state-side, don't be afraid to ask.

Snowless southern Utah. Yeah. Want to come shovel my truck out? Never mind. It's a Ford, and 4 wheel drive. Been so snowless here we've been snowboarding since about Thanksgiving. You must be talking about south of the black ridge.

And Patron Dave with a ratgun! Ah, my, times have been changing. What have I missed, besides GI M-14 parts doubling in the last few years.....

And you, Bruce, don't think I've forgotten you. Put another on my "to acquire" list why don't you. But you can't be happy with just that, you've got to make it the most stinking expensive one on that list as well. I'll get back at you by pouring beer down your throat in a week and some.

Bravo
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 13:57:33 (ZULU)

Gents,

Well, yesterday was an interesting day. I gotta believe that prayer gave me the breakthroughs of the last couple of years that changed the odds so dramatically! Medicjim, I needed any kind of hope and you grasp those straws whenever you feel like it! Heheh.

Angie is the real hero in this house: She has one baby in her arms, another facing a serious complication (but not too difficult to overcome thank god), and another in misery up at Grandma's. Imagine that, she has her kids in a triage. That my friends is one tough woman. Me, I'm a basket case. She is the soldier.

If any of youz wants to send her a card or something, hit me offline for that home addy. A deluge of "get-wells" would be something! I have read about 50 emails asking if there was anything that could be done, complete with volunteers to travel. You know who you are; and those generous offers are amazing acts of kindness. We have her whole family within a 20 mile radius of the farm, so we are OK there. I think a card or several would be the bright spot that would do the most good though...

Thank all of you.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 13:58:39 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Glad to hear the preyers are working. Will keep you and yurs in preyers till your safe return to the great USA.

On another note; Ref gun cammo. Cant remeber exactly where to put the credit, either Brogers or Bill Mc. One of them told me about using the insulation that goes around plumbing pipes ( that gray or black foam) to dull down a rifle barrel. I found it at the local Lowes and found it in a varying assortment of thickness. Well.... i now have covers that can be changed out very quickly. Spey painted the foam in woodland, desert and winter. I cut the peices to cover the barrel and the tube. Works quite well. only problem is that if your in the woods and change out, yu may find that bending/folding the foam to pack it away will make some paint chip off if its think in places on the foam, otherwise, appears to work quite well.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 15:38:12 (ZULU)

John

I must have missed something why am I killing you? E-mail me if there is a problem or if I have offended someone.

Double Tap
Indiana, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 16:11:26 (ZULU)

DoubleTap,

Double tap means he submitted the same message twice.

He then removed the second message and said.....

Wait for it....

"Double tap deleted"

AJ
NOLA, - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 18:35:38 (ZULU)

Last night we saw the first local 'secondary' victim of the Iraq war. A Marine just back, too much adult beverage and recreational pharmacy....combative and very much at risk of lethal OD consequences.

The EMS crew was very professional and he was given what respect was possible under the circumstances. Not a happy situation.

medicjim
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 18:51:08 (ZULU)

Robert

Your wife must still love you (birdshot).

Bravo

Where the "red dirt" prevails in Southern Utah there was no snow. Definately snow in all the high places we tried.

Dennis
Utah, - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 20:03:38 (ZULU)

RIFLE RAFFLE. For those of you who have been anxiously awaiting the results of the rifle raffle, we currently stand at 189 tickets sold. I’d like to thank all of those who have chosen to participate! With any luck we will be able to announce a winner sometimes next week. As of 2:59 ET Thursday, 5 February, we have 61 tickets left to go. Thanks again All!

Scott

Scott
Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 20:05:42 (ZULU)

Here is a sad but true joke

Last week I got a burger at Burger King for $1.58.

The counter girl took my $2 and was digging for my change when I pulled 8

cents from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel

and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her

discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me back two quarters, but she

hailed the manager for help and while he tried to explain the transaction to

her, she stood there and cried. Why do I tell you this? Read on..

Teaching Math in 1950:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.

His cost of production is 4/5 of the price.

What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1960:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.

His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80.

What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1970:

A logger exchanges a set "L" of lumber for a set "M"

of money.

The cardinality of set "M" is 100.

Each element is worth one dollar.

Make 100 dots representing the elements of the set "M."

The set "C", the cost of production, contains 20 fewer points than set

"M." Represent the set "C" as a subset of set "M".

Answer this question:

What is the cardinality of the set "P" of profits?

Teaching Math in 1980:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.

His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20.

Your assignment:

Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math in 1990:

By cutting down beautiful forest trees, the logger makes $20.

What do you think of this way of making a living?

Topic for class participation after answering the question:

How did the forest birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down the trees?

There are no wrong answers.

Teaching Math in 2000:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.

His cost of production is $120.

How does Arthur Andersen determine that his profit margin is $60 ?

Teaching Math in 2005:

El hachero vende un camion carga por $100.

La cuesta de produccion es.............

Double Tap
Indiana, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 20:34:05 (ZULU)

Joe M, I made that call. You have mail through the roster.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 20:43:50 (ZULU)

Oh hey,

Yeah sorry about that, left SC in the cold...Yeah, Clinch River Outfitters of Norris Tennessee is no longer the agent nor importers of Border Barrels(me)...If you want to get your hands on a scotty barrel, first have a quick peek at our website:

www.border-barrels.com

JR
the muckletoon, scotland, - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 20:59:23 (ZULU)

Double Tap,

Yes, that is an ironically sad and funny, yet true story. I have to chuckle because I am getting ready to go to the local "Tech College" for a work related class that has no test out option. I affectionately refer to the place as G.E.D. Tech for above shown reasons. Youngsters furiously writing word for word "notes", popping mini cassettes into their recorders, staring blankly at the ceiling. Sad. Really makes me proud of whatever certificate(read toilet paper) I will receive at term end.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 22:56:20 (ZULU)

Dos Tap,

Noboby offended. I just got a chuckle at the misunderstanding of double tap. Im sorry, my sense of humor is weird at times. The math joke is excellent. Like Doug said, probably more truth to it than any of us want to remember or admit. Are you in north or south hoosierland? Drop me an email.

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 23:52:04 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

I would like to apologize on behalf of Rich for taking your name in vain...you can take the country out of the boy but you can't get rid of all the goats...Rich is a great guy, just gets a little out of hand sometimes!!!

Well, at least you don't too many irons in the fire down in SA...good grief!!! When do you have time to shoot?

Hey, all of us here at SC are glad you came through the whole pup thing...we were worried!

Steve-have a GREAT weekend!

David Hornsby
Bedford, Texas, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 00:09:36 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

And I, on behalf of my goats, would like to apologize for David. He's also a great guy, but he seems to get me in the S*&t wherever we go!!!

So, I take it by the pups that the snakebite incident got resolved ok??

Got any Brittany breeders out that way, I need a pup.

Oh, and Chuck Hunt, if your paying attention, you need to explain to Hornsby the whole "forget the mental" parts of shooting!

Be safe guys!

Richard Johnson
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 01:30:37 (ZULU)

R.Opp, you have mail. ding. N/A thru S/C.

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 01:53:20 (ZULU)

Yeah; on the barrel shrouds made out of tubing. You might want to tape the things as opposed to painting them in some cases. It's real handy in country like this where it snow's off and on. You can use white taped shrouds in snow and any kind of camo tape. The sound seems to be somewhat absorbed by these things also. The more I use em the more I like em. Now someone will probably start selling them commercially and make some bucks off of it but whatever furthers the art. The important thing is that you protect the barrel against abrasions and blows and you can lay it down on a hard surface without a big impact change. I was gonna suggest that to Dennis out there in Utah but he is pursuing another interesting direction. A hand protector no less made out of yarn...! Let's see where he goes with that.

Double tap; forgive me for laughing at your situation. That's the internet for you. Old Sinister Dave deleted you ! The funniest things here happen purely by accident.

Brogers
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 02:30:53 (ZULU)

John (acehigh)

emailed you back N/A

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 03:03:03 (ZULU)

Gents,

Gone a couple days and was shocked with the news about Joe Mahon's daughters

Joe, My prayers for your family. Reagan and Peanut will weather the storm. Sounds to me like you've got a family of fighters...

When is you're end of tour? Sounds like they need to ship you home, ASAP. Plenty of other good men out there. You need to be with your family now. Just one old Marine's humble opinion.

Been gone a couple days. Took wife to the coast and found a very nice place called "Stephanies". Newly built, but old world style and charm. I would describe it as "understated elegance". Room had a fireplace, bar, TV/VCR(free movies), and a hot tub/jacuzzi. Wife loved it until she got a look at the bill. Heck she's worth every penny. If you have to ask, it's to spendy...;-)

Needless to say I'm a hero, again. Just banking some "savings" for when I get in "shit city" with her...

Ordered a new Winch Stealth in .223. If I read the signs correctly Winchester is stopping chambering the Stealth in .223, in favor of their "short/fat" offerings. The new Stealth II doesn't even catalog the caliber. RSR Wholesale still has about 1/2 dozen in stock. Davidson's web site doesn't even catalog the Winchester in .223 Rem any more. Can anyone confirm Winchester's dropping the .223 Remington?

All for now.

Prayers for Joe, his family, and all our service members.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 03:17:12 (ZULU)

David H., Damn you appologize funny. Still gunna slap Ricky on Saterday and have him pass it a long. Next you will make fun of my Mouflon sheep. Oh, and I aint shot a rifle in 30 days. Gunna try for Tuesday to go shoot. I just put a Bushnell 3200 on my M1A NM and need to zero it and see if it will hold up better than the Sprungfeld did. I stuck that on my 223, and hopefully that won't have to much recoil for it.

Rich, I'll have Chuck es-plian it to him tomorrow. We are going to In Service this week together. Today I guy in class fell a sleep and he stuck a sign reading, "Dooh, Im such a dork" on the guys chest as he leaned back snoring. And as far as Brittnay's go, I have a member of our GSP club that may be able to hook you up or put me in touch with a breeder. Heck the guy is a Field trial judge and may know some one out where you is. I will get back with you on that. I should see him on the 12th of this month. I'll let you know.

Double Tap, You sure the 1980's wasn't.. Punch in $100 on your calculator hit minus and the number 80, then press equals. If your calculator shows anything diffrent, try again.. If all else fails raise your hand and I'll press the buttons for you.

Crap, can't believe I missed the Riffle Raffle.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 03:19:45 (ZULU)

John A,

You have E-Mail - Thanks for the help!

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy., Indiana, U.S.A. - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 03:34:55 (ZULU)

DT, if you meant my email vs. Acehigh's, you didn't offend anyone, we were trying to 'splain you' that Sinister's post had nothing to do with you :)

John L

John Leveron
Mid-MO, USA, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 08:23:55 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Ahhh, the secondary effects! There's a lesson we have learned--but have since forgotten. In WWII, what was the average age of the soldier...27? It was well up there. Made a difference too. Look at Vietnam---19. Maturity should not come on the battlefield, and that is well known. I suppose a kid would do okay if he has enough old timers around. But, once again--we have kids leading kids in alot of cases. That should be a focal point for extra attention by the commanders and First Sergeants. Just go talk to them after an engagement...shoot the shit. Like a deep diver, decompress them. I do not think this is high on anyone's list of good ideas...too many are in their first war zone and they just don't realize the dynamic. Like I said, we sure do miss our viet-vets since they retired en-masse.

According to my logistics calculator--I have 114 days left in-country. Under the cirumstances, I will stay with the mission. Much of what I've done was designed to keep Nicole in that clinic in LaCrosse--where Dr. Bob has his practice. Hardship tours have the benefit of choices of return gigs and I go right back into Wisconsin. Any deviation now could result in the Army "taking care of us" by sending me to the Pentagon and Nicole to Bethesda. Not part of the plan...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 09:12:50 (ZULU)

Scott:

I just got by the "PX" to enter the raffle! That is one ticket closer to closing this out. Now, while there, I took a look around finally...man, this is impressive! Your PX is better than any around here, that's for sure. That's not even a worthy comparison---yours rocks! Once home, I'll be shopping...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 09:32:42 (ZULU)

This off the site http://www.remington.com/ammo/centerfire/premier_match.htm

"Developed in conjunction with the U.S. Military, the 6.8mm Remington SPC provides greater downrange effectiveness and ballistics than the 5.56x45mm. It’s unique design is based on the 30 Remington case, which has been necked down to 6.8mm(.277)."

Billed as an "...equal to 270 Win. trajectory out to 500 yards..." in latest NRA rag. That it's even mentioned there suggests the idea is pretty far along. Curious lack of information on what it is supposed to be used in.

Does anyone know anything about this development?

Dennis
Utah, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 11:30:06 (ZULU)

Dennis, fear not! 5.56x45mm is going to be around for a long time yet. The H&K space gun is so chambered. This 6.8 stuff is a req from SOCOM. And yes, sooner or later the rest of the Army will take notice if this performs as desired. But my money is on the Marine Corps to adopt this first. The Army moves at a break neck glacial speed on innovation. Hell, the grid-based camo patterns were developed in Natick 12-15 years ago. Army said it is too expensive...the Marines said, "who can do this for this price?" And they got it. This stuff is invisible with passive light amp gear! Amazing...

The debate will rage around NATO compatability (not NATO's relavence, that is not even considered in this argument)--then basic loads and weights...never once will effectiveness enter the discussion!

I am such a cynical bastage...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 11:43:21 (ZULU)

R.Opp,

You have mail, 1 attach.jpeg.

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 11:45:26 (ZULU)

Gents,

Was emailin' Ken when I realized I am the winner of the PX rifle raffle: It goes like this; I get selected and I get a rifle; I don't get selected, and I get a bunch of goodies to pass to the troops and they grin (some for the first time in a while)---see? I win either way.

Youz guys just hafta take yer chances!

Hahahahahahahaha....I am laughing all the way to the sandbox....

Dang--kid story: Up in Alaska, Angie built Blake a sandbox right by the stoop, nice with a lid and all. He played his butt off in there with his tonkas (dad was an engineer LT at the time, so it was natural). Now, whenever he got vexed with someone, he would put on his best Calvin and Hobbes scowl and say, "Yer not gunna play in MY sandbox..." I used to LMAO over that one.

Bartender! Make it a double...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 11:58:03 (ZULU)

Sniper Country Bar and Grill, ahhh. A place to shoot the breeze without worrying about windage, and our own little version of the real world where we don't have to calculate spin drift.

Joe M.

You mentioned a while ago that your replacement in theater would be a woman (I think) that you already knew. This still the case? If so, what do you think the chances of an introduction would be, so that she can see what kind of folks we really are and get past the whole sniper moniker that may initially put her off. I know your boys there will be happy to continue the goddies fun, but It'll go a long way towards the effort if the support of their C/O is in the bag. Just a thought...

Do y'all have vanilla coke to go with my Capt. Morgan's?

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 12:57:18 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just got off the phone with my wife; still in a holding pattern for Nicole--no signs yet for the hospital stay...

But she was in an incredibly good mood. Geoff, she was very happy that you called "out of the blue" to wish her well...

And, whoever sent the lil' animal and flowers---nice touch! Raegan was digging it---and the family was floored.

It is occuring to me what we are doing here....most families have a support group at "home station." But I left from an "on the economy" position---and we do not have this. Didn't really miss it until lately.

Snipercountry has just become a FRG. LMAO!

Joe M.

With all the possible bad ways this could have gone, I am having a great week indeed!

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 13:22:00 (ZULU)

Sinister nice little article on your guys. You mentioned in you post before this one the Remington 870 Modular Weapon system. Do you have any info you can send me on this? I can't find anything on the web about. Combat shotguns are a new hobby of mine. I would like to learn more about this one.

JR non-SC email coming your way no att.

Maj. Joe non-SC email coming to you also. How is the ice stock pile coming along? ;)

Keith
North Central , WV, - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 13:24:18 (ZULU)

Keith: over a quarter million pounds in each camp and rising. If I keep the reefers fueled, we'll be fat on the ice! Heheh.

My replacement is in sporadic contact---but don't really know her. I know of her. It is a small army after all! Now, she'll be OK I think...if not, recruiting will commence. I have plenty of candidates. But this job has "access" to all the transportation nodes; it is ideal for this program. Gotta get her to do it---unless she is lazy....

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 13:52:16 (ZULU)

R.Opp, pay info, N/A, S/C mail.

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 14:08:45 (ZULU)

The Marpat cammies are also hard to see on any digital imaging system too. Because it's a pixelated pattern, the edges get all fuzzy, even close up. I was taking photos for my platoon SOP with a 2.2 meg digital camera and once you started cropping the images, it got really dicy as to where the edges were. Thought that was pretty cool. Makes it harder for the Bluefor to see and shoot at you anyways:-)

270Win trajectory from the 6.8 is a bit ambitious. But it's got the same performance as the reduced recoil loads that Remington is coming out with for 2004. Should be an excellent deer blaster to 250m or thereabouts from a Model 7 or better still Win M70 Compact. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 15:41:52 (ZULU)

Hi guys, I have a request for all you lucky people who are going to the Shot Show.

A friend of mine is going to be there showing some of his toys. He builds semi auto .50 BMG "sporting rifles" and will have one there. He will also have one of his silenced .45 ACP rifles that use a regular .45 pistol magazine. He might have some other stuff there but I'm not sure. He will be in booth #7672 the name is Teppo Jutsu LLC. I'm pretty impressed with his stuff and am curious what you guys think. please report your thoughts.

Joe Mahon, I'm sorry to hear about Peanut but awful glad to hear that the situation is looking up. I can't imagine what your wife is going through all by herself, hang in there Mrs. Mahon. We all appreciate the tremendous sacrifices that those left at home have to make while your loved ones are keeping us safe. Thank you so much.

Joe, the guy at the Shot Show is the same one that I was talking to you about awhile back. If you know someone who can make a difference that will be there this would be a good time for him (them) to get a hands on feel.

Everyone be safe,Tony

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 16:44:41 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, the raffle is still on - you can buy tix at the SCPX.

LTChip
PLACERVILLE, CA, - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 16:49:43 (ZULU)

There are 20 books in the "Master and Commander" series. I just finished the first. It was excellent. The descriptions of the battles are supposed to be accurate. If so those guys were lunatics. Let's see is the next 19 are as good.

Teaching math in the year 200x:

Freshman: "Why do I need to learn this stuff? I'll never use it."

Instructor: "All of our science, technology, finance and organization management is based on this material."

Freshman: "I don't believe it. This is stupid."

CDC'
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 17:44:03 (ZULU)

deleted post... content not worthy of this forum.

medicjim
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 18:04:56 (ZULU)

deleted post... content not worthy of this forum.

medicjim
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 18:15:27 (ZULU)

Just found out John Morrow's book is in it's second printing. Again only 1000 copies. Here's the web site to order if any of Y'all are interested. I have a first edition (1989) it's full of "Sniper" history. As well a photos of Whitworth Rifles.

www.whitworthsharpshooter.com

Keep your powder dry, and, your flint shatp!!

Jim

Jim McNabb
Arlington, Texas, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 18:26:55 (ZULU)

Deleted

CDC'
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 18:31:08 (ZULU)

Bravo: Send your actual email addy---my reply feature failed!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 18:45:22 (ZULU)

Now now boys..(medicjim&CDC) are we gonna have to pull this car over and streighten this out? "Cant well all git alone" hehe. Just KIDDIN!! lighten up..... ;-P

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 19:07:15 (ZULU)

I come and go. This guy has me picked out. Having someone who has never even made payroll give me screaming lectures on the "real world" is tiresome. Being called ignorant by a guy with a third-grader's understanding of simple punctuation has become a bore.

See you all in a few months.

CDC'
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 19:19:51 (ZULU)

Hey! Hogs and Hoggets, I forgot to mention that the web site was John Morrow’s . . . you can get an autographed copy, iffin yount to!

http://www.whitworthsharpshooter.com

Keep ypur powder dry, and, your flint sharp,

Jim McNabb

Jim McNabb
Arlington , Texas, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 20:00:27 (ZULU)

SHOT Show attendees:

Don't you find it interesting that E-Bay is offering a free seminar on how to use there services, when they won't allow firearms transactions either on E-Bay or Pay-Pal?

Duman
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 20:19:15 (ZULU)

I Bet I have everyone on this roster beat for the MOST STUPID act. ( I was saving this one for when everyone needed an attention shift )

True story: While hunting for dall sheep in the White Mountains north of Fairbanks Alaska, I happened across a small herd on the south face of an allmost vertical mountain.Range was about 200yds. Big 7\8 ram in my scope. I had not eaten any meat for a few months and could just taste those big thick steaks . Off goes the saftey on the .338win mag loaded w/250 gr nosler partition. At that instant I realize that i had been humping this weapon through chest deep snow for 3hrs and took a quick look at the muzzle.Seeing that the rubber was split I whipped that weapon around and sure enough the barrel was packed with snow . Obviosly NOT thinking about anything but clearing the barrel I wrapped my lips around that muzzle to suck the snow out . On that winter day the temp was about 30 or 40 below zero . So there i sit precariously on the side of that mountain, alone,with the barrel of that .338win mag frozen to my lips , saftey off. I remember thinking that it might be a good idea not to make any sudden movements and certainly not touch the saftey . Ripping my lips off did not interest me at the time ,so i just sat there for about 20min or so and breathed through my mouth until the barrel warmed up enough to slowly release the lip lock i had on it.

Buck fever .....Mabye .......sheer stupidity .....definetly

Scott S
Ft Laud, FL, U.S.A. - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 20:39:50 (ZULU)

Scott S,

" Buck fever .....maybe....sheer stupidity....definately"

story.... Priceless! Thanks for the story Scott.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 21:48:52 (ZULU)

Scott S; I would recommend if you find yourself in that situation next time. Leave the condom on the barrel before you put your mouth on it and pray nobody comes by just in case that don't work.

Brogers
Friday, February 6, 2004, at 22:16:06 (ZULU)

Scott S.,

I don't think you have the market cornered on dumb-shit tricks. Many moons back, when I still thought with other portions of my anatomy besides my brain, I was getting single and had moved into a typical California courtyard type apartment. I noticed that there was a rather foxy lady living just across the hall from me so I managed to "accidently" arrive home just when she did and invited her over for cocktails. In the course of conversation I happened to mention I was a gun nut. She seemed interested so I drug out my Colt SAA .357, unloaded it and showed it to her. She oohed and aahed suitably so I drug out my 9mm WWII P.38, dropped the loaded magazine, locked the slide open and handed it to her. While she was checking it out, I turned my back,loaded the SAA with five rounds and put it away. When I turned around again the P.38 was on the table. I picked it up, looked in the chamber to make sure it was empty( I DID NOT LOOK TO SEE IF THERE WAS A MAGAZINE IN IT!!!!), dropped the slide, pointed it at the floor and squeezed the trigger! ;O((( A 9mm may be a somewhat puny round compared to a .45acp; but it damned sure is loud in a twenty by twenty room when it goes off. I sure did impress that young lady! Found out a few weeks later that she had been in Army intelligence. Thank goodness it was at least pointed in a safe direction. If I ever get to meet any of you face-to-face I'll tell you "The Rest Of The Story". ;o)

Doc (AKA Dumb Shit)

Doc Holloway
Watching it snow in the Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, February 6, 2004, at 23:34:08 (ZULU)

Couple of years ago we had a client hunt Tanzania with us. Outside of camp we had a makeshift range set up to sight in rifles after arrival. The client, who had brought a buddy along as an observer had just checked the zero of his 375 H&H and asked if his buddy if he wanted to try a shot or two. The buddy agreed, and without waiting for any instruction, grabbed the rifle and shouldered it, putting the scope right up to his eye, touching, and before we could stop him, pulled the trigger. 450 mile to the nearest hospital and the plane that dropped us off had flown to Kenya to refuel. He was okay, we put 22 stitches in him and made him drink half a bottle of Jim Beam. Four days later he could see again. He laughed it off and was a pretty good sport, but we didn't rub it in or anything. I got my charter membership in the half moon society in Aug of 02 anyway. Knocked me out cold! 8 lb 375 smack in the forhead. Perfect shot though, Gemsbok dropped where it was hit at 250m. You should have seen the look on my wife's face just before I passed out!

Rob

Robert Martin
Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 00:05:55 (ZULU)

Anyone know of a good (read fair price) for a Leica 1200 Scan RF?

aaacamera.com has em for $420 and that is the best I could find. That's $438 shipped to me.

Is that a good deal? Is there someone more deserving of my business?

Thanks,

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 04:36:43 (ZULU)

LTChip,

Email inbound via DR.

Jerry Copeland
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 05:37:11 (ZULU)

MedicJim,

LOOOOng time, no visit- a squabble with Dan??.... Not the first. Sorry not more folks partook of your Yahoo page- it was a noble effort to get people to think, I miss it. Hold that child close and take care.

Bill

Undude,

Sling never arrived? Held up in Mason Dixon customs, I bet!! LOL! Heck, I haven't got to shoot the stick yet anyway...

Joe,

Your little one still graces our prayers. Life is a hell of a struggle sometimes. Our kids deserve better than us.

Brodgers,

Don't change a thing!

Bill

Bill Moore
CQB, dissallusioned, USA? - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 06:29:29 (ZULU)

Holy cow--dumbshit stories! My favorite! Since I learned everything from a self-imposed screw up--I mean all my experience and knowledge thus derived; I will win this one eventually. Finally, a contest I am competetive in!

It had been a long time since I'd seen anyone on my team....this was my first op since getting in group, and it was a planned E&E. Bad guys on the LZ scattered us from the get go. Near as I could tell, everyone still moving would be moving on the route I was on. After my attempted link-up with the whitetail the night before, I was using caution. Still, that maneuver getting away from the initial pursuit was brilliant--so maybe I'm still cocky...oh shit--more bad guys moving along the ridge ahead. No cover up, pretty steep down. A briar patch! I dive in. Slit my eyes, pull up the leaves and wait. One comes strolling right up to my briars. Slooooowly place weapon on fire.....he pisses on my leg and hauls ass....whew. After a fashion, moving again. I make the first cache and hole up. Over the next twenty four hours, I make contact with my Team Sergeant and 2 other members. He askes, "where did you see that patrol?" I swing my weapon up to point at a mountain rather casually with my one hand on the pistol grip like a big pointer---and BANG! I fired off a round. How's that for an introduction to your team sergeant? The damn thing was on fire all day long x2. I've been checking safeties every five minutes or so for the last 17 years. Oh, yeah---he was real happy that I compromised the cache too. He was a rather large guy who was at his worst with missed meals. The rest of that month sucked to be me.

Real war story: The Army band in a unit IS the TOC guard force. Usually, this never happens--the band has PR gigs, and some infantry is ALWAYS available to fill the bill. Not here; the infantry is maxed out...so the concept became a reality. I have never seen a Band acutally used, real or training--in this capacity. I've seen it now. I will be damned--the band is on the perimeter. In addition, they travel about and give shows. I hate to sound morbid, but how would that citation read? ...for conspicuous gallantry in actions against the enemy. Sgt Hornblower rallied the percusionists during a roadside ambush and finally turned the tide of battle with his trombonists executing a flanking attack..." They say the noise was deafening...

I couldn't resist.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 08:01:04 (ZULU)

Dumbshit genes: Up at Wainwright, I used to grill Salmon pretty much year round. The storm door was metal construct, and the main door would be left open as I ran in and out to turn the meat at about 40-50 below. Yeah, once done, it was 10 minutes in the oven to warm it back up--don't ask me now why I even bothered...but I digress. The inside knob on that metal door would frost up like a snowcone. Once, I grabbed a sweaty-cold beer and took a big pull, then ran out to the grill. My wet hand was glued to the knob---and as I went through my left arm snatched me back...ouch! Hanging by palm flesh slowly tearing away with my ass on ice...OK, lesson learned. Now it's Blakes turn to learn his lesson (ladies, do not read on if you have deep sympathy for dumb kids)---Blake loves ice cream, snow cones etc. A week or so after my palm rips off, I am outside flipping Caribou steaks when Blake sees that big frosty delicious knob hanging in space. He toddles over and gives it a big lick, only now his tongue won't retract. Oh shit, he thinks, "I'mmmm thhhhuck!" By now, I am half froze and I need some heat, so I come running in to the house. I grab the door and fling it open (hmmm, kinda heavy) and MY SON COMES FLYING OUT! Looked like a pit bull locked on a bone right up until the first layer of tongue peeled off and he flew into the snow shovel-pile off to my left. Yeah, he hated me for a bit after that. Too bad for him; those were some tasty steaks. Heheh. I used this opportunity to introduce him to lima beans. Convinced him they tasted like lucky charms. Like he could tell the difference....heheheheheh.

Edited to remove the typo "sweaty bear" --that woulda been funny all by itself...youz guys wondering what, exactly, I "pulled" on that thar sweaty bar'....jeez. This keyboard has a mind of it's own...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 09:05:13 (ZULU)

Blake: He is harder in the head than his old man. He attached himself to that knob no less than 3 times that winter! Each was as funny as the last.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 10:04:48 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Pair of GWC's went out yesterday.

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 14:47:48 (ZULU)

I would like to offer my services free of charge to personally escort the bastard that killed the little girl in Florida to a public de-nutting and hanging, AND I want to be the lucky sumbitch that wields the knife and pulls the lever. I will even buy the beer and pretzles for those of you that would like to have a gallows-side seat. Damn, this makes me so mad I could just puke. I only hope that the information on the tube about the PD holding the Amber alert for 24 hours isn't true. Unfortunately though, the bastard probably did the deed ASAP after abducting her. I hate this type of thing, sorry assed adults that pick on kids should be immediately executed, publicly!

On another note.......

The A5 for my PSS came in last week. The stock has very little if any relief between the barrel and the barrel channel. Is this typical? Will have to wait for Brown to bring my new floor plate to do the final fit up but it appears that the barrel channel is going to have to be routed out :( The standard fill is much lighter than I thought it would be. Knowing that, I may opt for sniper fill on the next orders.

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 16:39:38 (ZULU)

Bill Moore - " LOOOOng time, no visit- a squabble with Dan??.... "

Bill - even the good guys occasionally but heads.... They'll heal because they're way above average....

ken hunter
Nokesville, VA, USA Under God - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 17:30:22 (ZULU)

Bolt: I'm with ya on that; what the hell kind of "deterant is the death penalty if we administer it in seclusion? Shit, it deters the perp awright---but what about the "other" nutcases? Public hangings had a reason for being public methinks...afew kickin' corpses on a thread ought to make a few of these miscrants stop and think!

Just got back from the Kuwaiti Towers. Nice view. With my polarized glasses, you could really see the tar at the bottom of the gulf. Makes Galveston's beaches look good. But otherwise, pretty cool place. I'm becoming a tourist now! Dinner and a pistol; life is great.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 18:18:52 (ZULU)

Hanging IMO is too quick. I would find his deepest fears and use them over and over etc..etc....

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 19:01:03 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Amen on the public hangin or as Scott said makin 'em suffer works for me. We might be able to change those policies as well. I never thought I'd see the day that 38 of 50 states would have the balls to pass anti gay marriage laws. Maybe, just maybe, we're startin to wake up in this country. The Amber alert thing is pretty strict from what I hear. Some LE on here might confirm, but I was told, by LE, that you have to have a tremendous amount of info on the perp before they'll release the alert. He listed all the requirements for me and all I could say was "if you knew all that, why not just go pick him up?" It was ridiculus.

Marius, how's that spellcheck comin'????

John

edit error correction

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 19:47:11 (ZULU)

Bolt,

The barrel should not be contacting the stock to the cylinder of the barrel, free floated, so take a postcard, fold it under the barrel in a u-shape, pull tight under barrel, and run it thru between the barrel and channel, it shouldn't stick..if it does,it's too tight, if it doesn't you are probably o-tay...

JR
the muckletoon, scotland, - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 20:17:44 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Are you going to pillar bed it? When my Robertson Composite came back, the inlet was shallow to allow for pillars and a skim bed to bring the ejection port up true to the side of the stock.

My Father, my wife and myself had the same conversaion about publicly hanging the bastard that killed that 11 year old girl. If we can't do it,, let's bring him down to Mexico for his own personal donky show and a hanging.... bastard.

FatBoy...

Chris
Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 20:52:08 (ZULU)

John,

You are right. The bureaucracy of the well intentioned Amber Alert system is typically Democratic party in nature. A true tragedy in this and, unfortunately, many cases. Still, better than none.

From what I heard, the death penalty was waived in lieu of his cooperation in locating the victim. Closure issues & all that. Sumbitch will still be out of circulation.

If I were family, I would use "public records" bureaucracy to find out names of all other prisoners in whatever prison he will end up in & mail letters to all of them letting them all know about this child murderer in their midst. They would likely take care of the problem in short order. Prison justice.

Not condoning anything unlawful, mind you :)

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 22:15:34 (ZULU)

Doug,

Sounds like a typical "sex predator" public service announcement to me....hey, if we do it for neighborhoods (not often enough)--why not for those poor prisoners? Heh.

Book mark for my next readin'. Gotta hit the hay...been crankin' out logstats all night. From 2000 on, the lack of business makes for some good admin time.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 22:28:37 (ZULU)

Chris and JR,

I'll wait til the Williams plate comes in and put it together, but messing around with it in the shop yesterday it doesn't appear to cut the no-bed/shim mustard. If it touches when its all put together and torqued down, I'll contact McMillan Bros. and see iffin this is a slight muckup. They swear that you don't have to bed the stocks. The VS stock that I took off had plenty of gap and was not bedded. Shot half inch all day long, hot or cold. I hate the thought of having to pay for a bedding job and with this much money already invested, and I don't want to practice bedding for the first time. We'll see when Brown comes to the house Monday with the stuff to finish the job. Oh woe is me!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 22:39:43 (ZULU)

Deputy Doug: As a former CO (on the left coast a lifetime ago) I can attest to the efectiveness of your idea.

Sumbitch will prolly go in under an alias with a bugus jacket to keep him alive. Fairly common practice, but covers sometimes DO get pulled. Ce's pa?

Don Black
Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 00:03:11 (ZULU)

About twenty years ago my cousin was killed by a known sex offender Ronald Rice and they let him off on murder charges but he had a short jail sentence for a hit and run. His neck was broke and Rice dumped his body in a field. By the time his body was found the body was decomposed enough to hide any evidence. Then not even a year later he molested a boy three blocks from where we lived at knife point. THEY CAN NOT BE REHABILITATED! THEY CAN ONLY BE REMOVED FROM THIS EARTH! This guy that killed the eleven year old girl needs to fry!

Double Tap
IN, USA - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 00:13:37 (ZULU)

Bill, it was sent around two weeks ago. Send me and address to my AOL email. GUys write this down as it seems I am not getting all my emails as they are directed from Tactical Intervention to aol anyway. that address is DMMDNLN@AOL.COM

Hogs cleaned a virus off my comp all day today. Man I am dumb with this, but thanks to the man Ken Hunter I was able to get rid of it. Virus is called Trojan Horse and if I could find who started it I would love to give him 72 Virgins.LOL

Mike/Undude

Only a few days before Shot and I have tons of work to do.

MikeMiller
CA, - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 00:47:18 (ZULU)

Mike - I can stop the forwarding of the tactical@.... mail to your aol account until you get alll fixed up. I have a web mail interface that you can use to browse your tactical email seperately from your aol emai.....

Hit me off line via aim or email if you're intersted

take care man....

Ken

ken hunter
Nokesville, VA, USA Under God - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 04:30:28 (ZULU)

Conflicts

I met a fellow who says that it's all pretty simple........

"He made me mad!" "He pissed me off!" "His stupidity insults me!"

He (this fellow) says to those who will listen... that nobody but YOU... can piss YOU off ....make YOU mad or allow YOU to be insulted. Certainly to overlook this obvious fact would be a sign of ..shall we say.. lack of intellegence even to the most throughly educated or the most mentally challenged among us. To allow oneself to be influenced to the point that he makes himself feel bad in a harmful way is obviously something that can be overcome by simple thought. He's (this fellow) a bit frustrated in trying to sell this concept. It seems that anyone with an IQ that will register can understand it but those who don't want to apply it to their own personal situation are suspect to savor to much their pathetic position in the conflict that needs overcome. One who is insulted, or just plain pissed off too often might do well to consult the nearest mirror for a revealing look at the source of the problem.

Brogers
Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 04:34:46 (ZULU)

Gents,

Concur with suggestions on what to do to the killer of that 11 year old girl.

These folk are not rehabilitatable. I deal with the Rapo's and Chomo's all day at Oregon State Penitentiary. Sick folk who want to be accepted(by anybody) in the worst way. I shudder every time I see one of these inmates get released, when their sentence is up, and the state says they are rehabilitated...RIGHT!

My suggestion is that we hire them to pull butts for 155mm Howitzers.

New Winch M70 Stealth .223 arrives on Monday. Yeah!

Best wishes to all. Long day and I hear the rack calling...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 05:32:53 (ZULU)

hello, i am a new member to this site.. i have been shooting and reloading for some time but i along with a couple friends are new to the sport of tactical shooting. I have recently bought a DPMS Panther 308LR and was wondering what bullet choice would be best. I have shot smk 168's and the new nosler custom comp j4 168 in front of 44 and 46 grains of varget both yielding .5" @ 100 and close to 1" at 200 yards(5shot groups). I am curious if i would be better off to try 175's or 190 smk in it. i wont be hunting with it only shooting paper and dinger targets at as many small sniper matches that i can find but there are very few of those kind of matches around here. one that i know of is 300 yds max and another one i know of is 4 or 500 yards max . i have shot a 300wm for about 10 years plus but am new to the slow but accurate 308 win. so any help would be greatly appreciated. i know reloading data says you can push the 175 and 190 within 100fps or so of the 168 and thought it might be better suited but not sure .

Also i currently have a 6.5x 20 leupold with target turrets on it and i am not sure i will have enough adjustment to get me out very far when i do find some match that shoots farther... what kind of scope would be better suited to get me to 1000yds(3.5x10 mk4 m1?) or is there a kind of mount you can attach to the picatanny rail mount that is tapered like the badger for the bolt guns?

B Murray
WV, USA - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 07:26:30 (ZULU)

As far as that phsyco that killed that little girl thier is nuthin anyone could do bad enough to this guy to be called justice. But if I got got to make up a sentence, I think he should be given a sex change and all the plastic surgery possible to make him look like a real babe. Then drop him off in the middle of the prison yard down in Huntsville and tell the other animals merry christmas! Let him find out first hand what it is like to have your life taken away for some wackos sick jollys!!!

ONE FOR THE STUPID SH*T FILES

I was around 15 (yeah it was a while back) my cousin who was a few years older was having some problems with another fellow. So he talks me and another cousin my age (Eddie) into letting the air out of the guys tires. We wasnt supposed to cutem just let the air out of all four.

He decides to drop us in a field at the end of the road then we would sneak down the street, carry out our little teenage commando raid then return to the field and await his return. At which time he would slow to a reasonable speed and we would jump onto the car entering via the moon roof, so he would never be seen stopped in the area.

Our mission had proceeded as planned, and by 0230 we were safely hiding in the field awaiting his return. Not long after arrival at our extraction point we saw it , the 1973 white Monte Carlo moving slowly toward us. My cousin and I both jumped up and ran towards the car feeling quite satisfied that nothing could go wrong now. Eddie was about two or three steps ahead of me as we emerged from the brush on the roadside, running wide open to intercept the car. He leapt onto the car as it aproached,to my dismay and his horror the car was obviously not equiped with the expected moon roof! I managed to stop just in time to see a car load of women go by screaming bloody murder with my cousin now firmly attached to the top of thier car as they rapidly accelerated away. Already out of breath and now seized by the most uncontollable laughter I have ever experienced I began to suffer from the effects almost instantly...The car had accelerated for maybe 60 yards when the driver had a stroke of brilliance. Amid all the screaming she summoned the insight to slamm on the brakes, which had the immediate and assumedly desired effect of causing Cuzz to un-ass the roof in an extreeeeemly violent manner. He had managed a good grip on each side of the roof by this time. And the sudden lack of acceleration had the unexpected result of sending him ass over tea kettle onto the hood. By this time I had found it very difficult if not damn near impossible to stay upright due to a lack of oxygen caused my the most excruciating form of uncontrollable laughter imaginable. I was inclined to drop to my knees in order to get closer to the ground which is now obviously my eventual destination if the amusement doesnt stop soon. I can still see enough from the streetlights to tell that they hadnt shaken Eddie off yet, he had managed to grab the rear edge of the hood after landing on it in order to avoid rolling off in front of the still moving vehicle. As they finally came to a stop my first thought was thank God maybe now I can stop laughing before I pass out allowing me to evecuate the area before the local authorities arrive, WRONG AGAIN. as the vehicle comes to a stop and before its unfortunate rider can unass it, I see reverse lights and the source of my discomfort has increased in hilarity and is coming back. By this time I am on my hands and knees howling with laughter, and have yet to manage a breath since this circus began. I remember wondering if I would start breathing again after I passed out, or just die from laughter on the spot. About this time the vehicle passed me again. Only this time bringing a scene that was almost sureal, it seemed to be in slow motion. The women who could now see thier aggressor were screaming louder than ever. My cousin who was looking the driver right in the face was also screaming for all he was worth. I began to assume something like the fetal position holding my ribcage to delay its eventual explosion . The whole scene began to receed into the fog of unconciousness. As if it was part of some well rehearsed stunt at almost the exact point that they had acquired thier unwelcome passenger, I saw something that I had only seen on re runs of batman or maybe Starsky and Hutch. The driver slammed on the brakes and cut the wheel which resulted in the almost instant return of said cousin to the roadside from whence he came, at very nearly the point where his ride had began. Without even a fraction of hesitation the car had achieved a 180 and was rolling forward again speeding away in the direction from whence it came. I was vaguely aware that my accomplice was lying in the grass nearby and possibly injured, but ws completly unable to render aid due to my own set of problems first and foremost trying to regain composure long enough to partake of that most precious of all commodities AIR!!!!! Finally as my howling slowed to somthing resembling normal human laughter complet with gasping breaths, I hear Eddie say "mother f#ckr it aint funny" at that moment I wished he was right cuz that much amusement is painfull and unhealthy to say the least!!! I am almost 40 now and every few years when we see each other that story always seems to come up its somthing we will never forget. And I bet those women will be tellin it till the end of thier days as well!!!!

Robert Adcock
Far East, Texas, USA - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 08:15:28 (ZULU)

Young 'uns; God Bless them:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A22307-2004Feb7?language=printer

Read the aprt about "controversy." Read between those lines. That's some of what pisses me off to no end daily around here. Otherwise, this is the kind of thing that makes the American Military great!

Robert: Dat funny mang!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 11:30:57 (ZULU)

Mr. Murray,

There is a very good long range shooting match and several schools in your A/O. The match is booked but there is a waiting list from what I hear. Cut and paste this link for info on one of the best if not the best school in your state. You might wanna send the scope to Premier Reticle and have them put in a Gen 2 mildot reticle and use the 175smk's. You'll be well on your way. Welcome to the pub. http://www.stormmountain.com/courses.php

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 12:01:40 (ZULU)

B. Murray,

<<or is there a kind of mount you can attach to the picatanny rail mount that is tapered like the badger for the bolt guns?>>

Yes, GG&G makes one. Here is the link:

http://www.gggaz.com/products/ar-10fire_rail.php

It will add an additional 20moa.

Also I believe Badger Ordnance is now or will soon be making one. Personally I'd give Marty a call and see when theirs is going to be ready.

http://www.badgerord.com/

I use an 3x10 M3 LR with my 20" SR25 and have enough adjustment out to 900 yards. For 1k I simply use a 1 mil hold. Seems to work just fine.

Hope that helps.

JWL

John Levens
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 13:47:02 (ZULU)

Hi, Folks!

Joe from PA sent us a check for $250.00!!! We will call our order into White Buffalo tomorrow.

He is also shipping some stuff over to MAJ Joe on his own.

Joe, I'll send you the shipping address as soon as I finish this post. Thank You!

Balance now stands at $283.13.

I love this bar.

Hope to see all of you at SHOT. Those that attend can probably get to see another table dance by InSain.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 16:20:38 (ZULU)

If I dance on another table, the ante is gonna have to be waaaaay upped Brucey.

Waaaay to many folks know that was me now ...

See ya in a few. Hug momma for me.

brian k. sain
Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 17:31:37 (ZULU)

thanks for the help folks... as i said i am new to this sport and all the info i can get would be greatly appreciated . i will probably be putting a 3.5x 10 on it in the future but right now while im developing a load for it , it seems like i can shoot the 20x better.

i also have 2 friends that are thinking of rebarreling for the 6.5x284. how many shots can they expect to get out of a barrel .

i am also thinking of rebarreling my sendero 300wm . i have read about a mike rock 5r type of barrel and im not sure where to find it. is the hs precision or the pac nor polygonal barrel close to what a 5r barrel would be or would they be as good?

many thanks in advance. you guys are a great help

b murray
wv, usa - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 18:23:31 (ZULU)

b murry,

ref: 6.5x284

I have two, and will have three in the next few weeks. My first one had the barrel go south at 671 rounds. After the set back it didn't really come back. I'm not sure what happeded here, as the gunsmith (world renouned) said the leade and throat looked good, but it won't hold the 8 ring on a 1K target with any kind of consistency, even after a load change. Inside 300 it's still a 1moa gun, but out long it's worthless now. This is a 5R profile.

I have another that has 1200+ rounds through it. I have lost one bullet to date, but turned around and shot a 196-8X with it the next match, and it rarely scores less than 194 at 1K with a scope. This barrel is at the end of it's initial life IMHO, and will be coming off, and set back 1.75" in the next week or so. I hope to get at least 500 more good rounds from this barrel, as it'll be a back up to my 2 match rifles. This is a 6 groove profile.

I'm not attributing round count to rifling profile though, as my next 2 barrels will be 5R. The 5R did burn off slower as well, but was harder to clean.

I must quantify this by saying that each of my barrels gets smokin' hot during matches, as I fire an average of 26 rounds within 15 to 20 minutes depending on conditions and the pit service. If you slow fire, you'll do better than this. In general terms though, you should expect between 800 to 1500 rounds from a barrel, with a set back you may get 2000. I think barrel steel makes more of a difference than the rifling profile, as far as round count goes, but I'm guessing as I'm no barrel maker and not smart enough to be able to analyse steel properties.

My advice with the 6.5x284's is go with as long a barrel as you can stand. Give up weight with barrel profile and fluting to go longer. This will keep pressure down with lighter charges. Don't push it too fast either. 2950fps is a good number to be at. Lots like to go 3000fps+, but I'm not seeing a huge gain here, so I keep them in a happy place. If they'll be going with Norma or Lapua brass (Lapua being my favorite) they should look into a chamber much like the Paficic Tool and Die Norma Match reamer. It's tighter than a standard chamber but still requires no turning of the necks. Very accurate, and easy on brass.

Hope this helps some. Maybe Wes and Pat (FagMag cult leaders) will chime in, and JR regarding the characteristics of rifling and barrel steel.

For Rock Creek 5R's, you should contact GA Precision in Kansas City. Pac Nor makes a good barrel as well, buttoned, but polygonal is different than 5R and I have not used one. Obermeyer and Border Barrels also make a cut rifles 5R.

FatBoy...

Chris
Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 21:23:38 (ZULU)

b murray,

Fag mag life depends a lot on your application. much like the 308 palma barrels, barrel life is shorter in match rifles(you can expect around 5000 rounds for palma barrels, tactical barrels will hold up to around 10K+ rounds..) if you shoot target like Chris here, well his barrel outlasted my expectations, 1500+ and still cookin is pretty darn good..It's often a matter of how many rounds you are getting down the barrel in a period of time, as well as depth of land...I'd be expecting more at 12-1400 rounds for target barrels if you're smoking the 142's at 3000 fps consistently...I'm taking this on account that we rebarrel a lot of the UK shooting team's rifles here, and it runs about a barrel per season...

Polygonal barrels can be found thru Pac-Nor, Chris Dichter is a heckuva good guy and can attest to the benefits of his sticks, Schneider makes a helluva poly barrel according to George G at GA Precision, who also supplies Mikey rock's 5r barrels...HS Precision barrels are of 6 groove form, in a rifling profile called 10x, which if they are still holding to form shoot very well, plus they use very good rifle barrel steel..

5r barrels(the well made ones) are a bit different than the even grooved conventionally rifled barrels, in land design and the fact they are odd-grooved which seems to put less stress on the bullet as it travels down the bore, in bore yaw is less of a factor due to consistency of the depth of land per land, they do all right.. Boots Obermeyer is the kingfish when it comes to 5r's, often he is waylayed by military contracts so it can become a long although well worth it wait..We have gotten together with Boots on tool design and have produced 5r in a few calibres, with good results..

the Remington 5r's are traditional Remington quality, shite, they aren't in the class of quality of the custom barrelmakers..Anyone who owns a Remington 5r, keep my opinion in perspective please, i don't need emails justifying your purchase..They are perfectly fine if they fit your purpose, but when you want to step up a level, go custom..

We'll see how the 5r goes, eh Chris..like to hear how the wifey's 6 groove 6mm barrel shoots as well mate, they should clean like a dream..If it's the return of the Saigon f*** Whore, let me know..

later

JR
the muckletoon, scotland, - Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 22:56:09 (ZULU)

JR,

""If it's the return of the Saigon f*** Whore, let me know..""

Ha,, I forgot all about when I sent you that. :))) I'll let you know. Even if they do foul, if they hold up like the 6 groove does now I'll just brush it, as they'll not last long anyway ;))

That 6BR is gonna be one wicked mother with a 30" barrel. If it holds good elevation and decent wind at 1K, I may order 2 more barrels and improve the shoulder (6dasher, 6imp ubl) and go with it instead of the fagmags. I'll get 2500 rounds from an improved version with a 107 at 3050fps, and at 17lbs per rifle (with optics) it will have air rifle recoil.

I'm still looking at having at least one 6.5x284 and maybe that 7mm SAUM put togther for the windy days.

FatBoy...

Chris
Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 23:13:47 (ZULU)

John, I guess the only hardware you need for the Sparkman AR-10 rail free-float tube is the strap wrench (maybe some Threadlock to keep the tube nut from coming loose?).

The AR-10T is proving to be a real joy to shoot. I've probably got 200 rounds downrange on iron maidens at 300, 400, and 500 yards the past few days, and I find myself downloading to five rounds in the mags so I don't get "Runaway trigger finger" (banging maidens far away quickly is proving addictive).

Will be at the SHOT Show on Thursday. I'll leave my card with George Gardner at the GA/Badger booth, and with Mike Haugen at Remington. I have no idea where I'm staying yet, as the office does travel and room arrangements. Right after SHOT we go to the Orange Blossom Regional in Florida for a highpower clinic, then back to Benning for the Olympic Shotgun Team final selection matches and the All Army Championships.

I've received several dozen calls from units getting re-flagged from artillery or air defenders to foot infantry/riflemen for the next iterations to Iraq and Afghanistan. Units are being given M14s and M24s, but no training (Benning's Sniper School is strapped for people, and they won't train guys unless they hold infantry MOS 11 or Cav Scout 19D).

I'm out of people to send out on MTTs, as have the Guard and Army Reserve. I sent out a request to the Texas State Rifle and Pistol Association for experienced (retired military and current civilian/NRA) highpower riflemen to give training in the Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Louisiana, Arkansas area, and several folks responded. The Army picks up your food, lodging, mileage, and a modest per diem. The program seems to be working.

Keith, the 870 Modular Weapon System is a military-only product right now. The USAMU got the first two, we deployed one to downtown Baghdad. You get an 870 receiver, four barrels (9, 14, 18, 22 with rifle sights), different length magazine tubes and springs, a breacher's pistol grip, a pistol grip shoulder stock, a sidesaddle, a big nylon bag to put everything in, a cleaning rod, and a bunch of other small accessories.

sinister
Monday, February 9, 2004, at 00:00:13 (ZULU)

Bruce, Gonna hit ya soon with that donation. Been working everyday. New managment philosophy, shorthand an area and require twice as much work!

Dumb Shit Stories:

Some years back I had recently purchased a brand new Mossburg Cruiser with 18" bbl and pistol grip from a local dealer(good friend), he said all the local cops had them. I head for my club like a bolt of lightning and when I get there it empty. Sweet, its usually full up by 2pm in the summer. I walk my paper out to 50 and come back and load up a few #4 buckshot to see how she fairs. About 20 shots later a fella shows up so I stop shootin so's he came set his paper up and I'm going to change mine. We chat alittle and he comes over and says here, I got a few 3" mag slugs floating around, why don't you use 'em up. A grin ear to ear comes across my face. So I go down to my table and wait for the clear to fire to echo down to me. I wait and wait and start thinking how this gun doesn't kick as hard as I thought it would with the 2 3/4" Buckshot. I convince myself that I am the freaking terminator. I get the good to go and firmly take the weapon by the pistol grip and begin to try to get a bead on the target. Holding the weapon as if it had a stock, when none actually exsisted, and squeezed of a round. I never been hit by any man that could come close to that 12ga. A few red marks from where the heat sheild had smacked my forehead, 2 loose front teeth and a split lip were my reminders that I ain't no movie hero. Some field firstaid and I was back to shooting but not able to focus to well! The guy who gave me the ammo couldn't stop laughing to ask if I was ok. He tried, really he did but it was more like some snorting inbetween the gasps of breath. When I saw my friend who sold me the weapon one of the local police were shooting the breeze with him. When I walked through the door the cop started snickering, I later found out he did the same jackass thing! Community Stupidity? or just Fool Hardiness?

Icky The Great
PGH, PA, USA - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 00:32:37 (ZULU)

Sinster Dave,

You have mail coming through the SC pipeline, regarding gaurd training in TN.

FatBoy...

Chris
Monday, February 9, 2004, at 00:55:08 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave,

SC mail on the way from Missouri.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The snow-covered Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 01:41:21 (ZULU)

Missouri hawgs:

I have to work out details yet, but yes, there may be a requirement some time in the not too distant (read within 12 months) future to train 7.62 M14 and M24, or 5.56mm M16A4 Designated Marksman training for Guardsmen re-flagged to Military Police and Combat Engineers. Training would be at Fort Lost in the Woods. Anybody know if they have a KD range?

sinister
Monday, February 9, 2004, at 02:31:13 (ZULU)

Adm. Moorer's Last Warning

By Christopher Ruddy

It is a sad day for America when a national giant passes.

Adm. Thomas Moorer, of Eufaula, Ala., was such a giant.

His passing this week is especially sad for me. Adm.

Moorer was a friend, adviser and member of the board of

directors of NewsMax.com's parent company, NewsMax Media,

Inc.

Adm. Moorer was a man "in the arena," as Theodore

Roosevelt would have described him. Even at the age of 91,

the admiral had kept quite active in public affairs.

This dynamo of a man made his first landing on an aircraft

carrier in 1935. I don't think I need to detail the

dangers of such landings without the instrumentation of

today's planes.

It was one of his hallmarks that he did not know fear.

Thankfully, America produces such people.

During his life, Moorer had numerous brushes with death.

He was there on Dec. 7, 1941, when the Japanese bombed

Pearl Harbor.

As a combat pilot during the war, his plane was shot down

over the South Pacific. Fortunately, he was rescued by a

cargo supply ship.

This episode would have been a great story in itself. But

it gets more interesting. The supply ship that rescued him

was carrying ordnance and explosives. When Japanese planes

began bombing the supply ship, Moorer and a handful of

others realized it would be better to abandon the ship

early.

Most of the crew didn't see it the same way as Moorer and

stayed. Moorer entered the lifeboat while most stayed

aboard. The ship exploded and almost the entire crew was

lost.

Once again, for the second time in a matter of days,

Moorer was adrift in the great Pacific in a tiny lifeboat.

Miraculously, he and the survivors made it to a deserted

island where he was discovered by an Australian airplane.

For his heroism, Moorer was awarded both the Silver Star

and the Purple Heart.

I tell this story about Moorer in the South Pacific and

his decision to evacuate the supply ship when most others

would not because it illustrates a great deal about the

man.

Moorer had a certain clarity of thinking, a thinking that

saw things as they are and how they might be. He could see

things over the horizon. He also had the courage to go

against perceived wisdom, make decisions and act on them.

That was what struck me about Adm. Moorer: Even at the

advanced age of 91, he still possessed this certain

clarity of vision.

His Plan Ended Vietnam

I remember speaking to him in the hours after the events

of Sept. 11. He told me that the American people would

soon forget about the tragedy and would not learn from it.

He said he had seen this time and again. We don't learn

from these things, he told me. I was flabbergasted, but he

was right: The complacency is here today.

Adm. Moorer was full of anecdotes about his years in

military service, his dealings with presidents, and his

service as the nation's highest-ranking military official,

the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Adm. Moorer was chairman of the Joint Chiefs during the

divisive days of the Vietnam War. The war was vexing for

him, as it was for many Americans. He was even more

anxious because he believed the conflict could have been

ended quickly, with fewer casualties and more favorably to

U.S. interests.

But the politicians were not letting the military do their

job. The days of FDR deferring to Gen. Marshall and the

military were over.

Adm. Moorer's advice to President Richard Nixon was

simple: Bomb North Vietnam's infrastructure in and around

Hanoi and mine North Vietnam's key ports. This would

effectively cut them off and force them to end the war.

Despite all of Lyndon Johnson's carpet-bombing, the

Pentagon had always been limited to secondary targets that

had little effect in undermining North Vietnam's war

effort.

Nixon told Adm. Moorer that he would not agree. Nixon was

worried that if the U.S. were too bold, the Chinese would

join the war and perhaps ignite a global conflagration.

Also, Nixon was concerned about the American POWs held by

the North. The State Department warned that if the U.S.

stepped up the war, the POWs would suffer more.

Adm. Moorer told Nixon that China would not enter the war

and that once the North Vietnamese understood our new

resolve, the treatment of the POWs would actually improve.

By 1972, however, the war had been in progress for seven

years and American policies had failed. Hanoi had agreed

to peace talks in Paris, but the communists were

intransigent.

As Adm. Moorer recounted to me, a frustrated Nixon

suddenly summoned Moorer. At the time, the admiral was on

a military jet heading to Europe for a NATO meeting. The

plane made an immediate U-turn over the Atlantic and

returned to Washington.

Moorer told me that Nixon was at Camp David, in one of the

retreat's rooms, with a longtime friend. Nixon asked what

Moorer thought they should do.

He told them bluntly: Bomb North Vietnam as they had never

done before.

Nixon, nervously, gave Moorer the OK.

Beginning on Dec. 18, 1972, the U.S. unleashed the

largest, most concentrated bombing campaign in its history

-- the campaign was dubbed "the Christmas bombings." For

nearly two weeks U.S. pilots flew almost 4,000 sorties. B

52s were brought in and flew more than 700 bombing runs

over key North Vietnam targets.

Within days the Vietnamese were suing for peace. And as

Moorer recalled, the POWs later reported that their

Vietnam captors, frightened by American power, began

treating them more benignly.

Adm. Moorer's plan, heeded belatedly, brought an end to

the nightmare of Vietnam.

Last Warning: China

When I saw Adm. Moorer in Washington at a luncheon just a

few months ago, I introduced him by saying, "Admiral

Moorer may have retired from the military, but he never

retired from America."

After leaving the Joint Chiefs, Moorer began an active

business and political life.

During the late '70s, he was the one of President Carter's

strongest critics for having forsaken the shah of Iran and

allowing the Soviet Union to go unchallenged after

invading Afghanistan.

Notably, Adm. Moorer was also a sharp critic of Carter's

treaty to transfer the Panama Canal to the Panamanian

government.

In recent years, the admiral recalled to me his testimony

to the U.S. Senate opposing the Panama giveaway. He told

the Senate that if the U.S. left Panama, the Soviet Union

or another communist power would fill the vacuum created

by America's departure.

As a military and navy man, Adm. Moorer understood the

strategic importance of shipping. As one who understood

the Pacific theater, he knew a war in Korea or elsewhere

in Asia required the U.S. to have unimpeded access through

the canal. In a serious conflict, days could be crucial.

Only an American military presence near the canal could

guarantee such access.

The U.S. Senate did not agree and gave President Carter

the OK to sign the Panama Canal Treaty.

But the clear-thinking Moorer turned out to be right. A

communist power filled the gap when the Panamanians gave

Hutchison Whampoa, a Chinese company, operational control

over the canal.

Adm. Moorer said that when he warned the Senate that some

communist power would fill the vacuum in Panama he never,

in his wildest dreams, thought that country would be

China.

In his closing years, Moorer's singular worry was China.

He believed that Red China was using front companies like

Hutchison to set up strategic bases near key "choke

points" for control over shipping lanes. He was also quite

disturbed that China's Hutchison had taken control of the

port in Freeport, the Bahamas - just 60 miles from

Florida.

Moorer saw China's demand for Taiwan as just one reason

the Chinese may go to war sometime in the future with the

U.S. There was also a struggle for hegemony over Asia. And

he never bought the notion that Beijing's ideological

Maoists had any intention of remaking China into a

democracy.

Inevitably, he argued, China would be in a conflict with

the United States.

China's enormous population made this likely and

worrisome. Adm. Moorer's concern was that Chinese leaders

might some day believe they could absorb a nuclear attack,

lose 200 million people and still have 800 million left.

The U.S. could not withstand such a loss. China's

population made naught the concept of mutually assured

destruction - which had helped maintain lukewarm peace

with Russia for decades.

So, when we honor and remember this great warrior, we

should remember his last warning: Beware of China. To the

very end, this heroic American was looking out for his

country with his certain clarity of thinking.

--------------------------

Although I can't verify the origin of this story, maybe some of you here can support or deny the validity of it. What is strange to me (at least on the homefront) is that scrap iron prices are "high" with the potential of being at an "ALL TIME HIGH" .......with China being the purchaser. That part I KNOW has been confirmed to me only within the last week by several local businessmen.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 05:06:33 (ZULU)

Sinister,

Your Benning Range control can easily find out through DSN line or should have a copy of the DOD manual on training lands which covers all active, guard and reserve trainging lands. Will list acreage size of lands, and particulars as to bivoac sites, sive and types of ranges and the use of those ranges, to include caliber of fire and lengths of ranges. Hope this helps. Tried to do a quick search of the lost in the woods web sight and couldnt nail down a POC of the Range control doggies.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 14:58:18 (ZULU)

Sinister,

Directorate of Planns and Training, sorry that i dont have the area code for the civ number but it did not appear on Lost in the woods web page .... heres the Number 596-4038

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 15:02:03 (ZULU)

Sorry for all these posts...the area code and number is (573)596-4038 for civ line to dir. plans and trainging

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 15:04:42 (ZULU)

MK 4,

Thanks. Sounds like we lost another great one. Insightful, to say the least.

I found out my home is on a short list of the local thieves. They've hit 5 in the neighborhood in the last 2 weeks. One in custody told detectives that my home is a target. He specifically described the house, garage and location. It's going to be a long winter.

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 15:32:51 (ZULU)

any one listening to Brit news at the mo will get this one....

2 Sharks swiming about in the Irish Sea, one says to the other, " I'm bloody sick of only eating these smelly mackerel" other one replies, " i know, hows about we swim up to Morcambe bay, i just fancy a Chinky".

Ace, go buy some claymore's. Thieves need some fingers chopped off, I was round at my mates filling station the other day and he was showing me some video clips, he's just had security cameras installed, unbelieveable the cheek of some of these damn thieves, he even cought 3 of his damn cashiers stealing too..problem is for $30 maybe $150 worth of stuff nicked the cops won't do nuthin, cos the prosecution service wont press charges for such a small amount, but when you add it all up at the end of the month its totaling $7000 + which is no small sum.

Any of you guys at the SHot SHow check out the Schmidt & Bender stand and see if they have a 4-16x42 PMII yet, cos if they aint i'm getting towards buying an NXS just to spite em. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 16:32:36 (ZULU)

Rich, I tell people that little story when they get all wrapped around the axle trying to put everything together to hit a target. It's one of the reasons I always tell a newbie we're just going to have some fun and blow off some ammo....amazing how much they absorb when its "fun"....

Speaking of dumb-ass stunts.....If you're ever packing your own 'chute, ALWAYS use the velcro strip (or, in my day, the breakaway string) to secure the static line to the drogue chute. NEVER use a square knot to hold the two together! Even if you know you won't forget, you know you will untie it, and it's a real drag that they keep coming apart while tied to the stake when you're packing it......I'll let you use your imagination to visualize the outcome.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 17:36:21 (ZULU)

Pete,

ROTFLMAO!!!!

JR
the muckletoon, scotland, - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 17:43:23 (ZULU)

JR, thought you'd like it.

Dumb ass stunts, don't get me started, i could write a book. was stationed in Wainwright (sp) Alberta, managed to get an afternoon off, decided to catch some rays, got ontop of the shower block, spread out my towel, got the walkman radio hung on my ears, listening to the local country music channel, managed to fall asleep, for about 4 hours, had me boxer shorts on, and suncreamed everything but my tadger (penis), well ole charley came snooping out of the shorts to catch some rays for him self (dunno what i was dreaming about, but we'd been exercising on the prarie with the PPCLI for weeks so who knows, maybe it was the waitress at the gag n puke, i mean, Mad Dog Hotel, or the gorgeouse little chick i'd met in Edmonton, anyways, ole charley got him self sun stroke, well thats an understatement, it was more like sun assisted cirumcision (sp), damn if i didn't burn my bits so bad it put me out of action for 2 damn weeks, worst bit was the skin peeling.. ouch !!

Or, climbed out of the local monastery window into the garden, we'd just put one of the catholic priests to bed, we all got shit faced drunk and he couldn't walk, well you cant leave a man of the cloth to crawl back to the monastery can you, so we helped him, and we got locked in, only way out was a window, great, my mate forgot to mention that it was on the second floor, he jumped onto a covered walk way roof and me, well i plumeted like a wet sack of potatoes to the ground, landed on the window sill of the ground floor and managed to stick my knee through the damn window, fell backwards onto my head in the damn holy rose garden, rose pricked my head back and ass on thorns and managed to add another scar to my right leg, spent 2 weeks in hospital. oh man was i drunk and oh man was the wife mad, i phoned her from the hospital, and said " i'm in hospital, but i aint gonna die" all she said was " pity" then hung up.. well i guess i was on a bit of a re-adjusting to civilian life drinking binge at the time, one of several over about 12 months post green kit ..

ah.. ive many stories,, but the roster aint the place i guess..

I'm off to see if i can get me a piggy tonight...

catch yall, later..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, February 9, 2004, at 19:03:12 (ZULU)

Nice to see some interest in this 6.8 round. Yesterday I saw a rag at the store "RifleShooter" March/April 2004 with a brief article on it. Author a (John Paul???) Johnston. (Not sure of 1st 2 names, guy looks like 50+ in photo w deer). Said he had been in on it since beginning. Remington started development at SOCOM request 2002. Gave 24in Velocities for Rem Ammo as 115gn FMJ, 115 Sie MK, 115 BTHP hunting load as 2800 fps. Had feeling these are Rem "published" figures from tone of article. Velocities at 300 yd 2017fps, and 2049, 2049 fps. [Remember, this is from memory, cut me slack]. Rem used a special powder (no surprise). Had LESS chamber pressure than 5.56x45 load (again, expected since the larger head size would result in greater thrust on the lugs and the "M16" weapon is dictating the rounds charactoristics). Claimed a BC of .350 (or .352? what's .002 among friends) but did not relate it to which bullet. [His MK & HPBT figures when backworked suggest a BC of .330 or so]. He had a handload with a 110 gn Hornady VMAX with advise from a Hornady rep that went 2971 fps from a 22in Mike Rock SS bbl, on a CZ action in a McMillan stock. Used a detachable mag in this custom rifle. Got a Colorado Muledeer Buck last season at about 200 yards. Complete penetration of the rib cage with the VMAX. Talked about case being a blown out (and shoulder pushed back) .30 Rem. Had picture with 223, 30 Rem, 6.8, and .308 all in it. Talked about min recoil, could see deer "flip" when hit. Thought it would make a good 300 yard max [deer] hunting cartridge. Other than an Army request, didn't mention Military much more than that.

Boy, stick a Sie 135 MK in it at ~2500 (20in or more bbl) and you could kill the 223 heavy loads in match rifle and maybe service rifle (if adopted/rules changed to allow by CMP/NRA) for 'Across the Course.

I've hunter with a .270 Win for 27 years. I can't see it as a hunting round (except for being able to use an AR).

artee
Monday, February 9, 2004, at 20:18:19 (ZULU)

Mk4-scrap iron story interesting if true. Same thing happened in late 1930's, but Japan was the buyer. Isn't there a line about "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it"???

Artee- was that Gary Paul Johnson? Ex SWAT cop who came up with the 1* [one asterisk] insignia, amoung other things.

WR Moore
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 00:10:07 (ZULU)

MK-4; I still remember my Granddad complaining about how they rounded up all the scrap metal from Farm Machinery during the 30's and sold it to the Japanese who used it for war materials against us.

I also remember the bid's for South America and Central American interests during the Contra affairs - El Salvador power plays and other chapters of the "Great Southern War" that nobody knew much about. China was a big player but very secretive about it and there was great fear they would move into Panama if Noreaga(spell?) were overthrown, the two things seemed out of phase but they were kicked around at the time. They (the Chinese) intended to expand the Great Communist Revolution right there and were somewhat jealous of the Castro (backed by Russia) communists for fear they would take over before they (the Chinese) could affect a take over of the weak Govts in El Sal., Guat, and Even Mexico. (the latter being a bit dangerous for their ambitions but Carter was the weak card! The Panama thing of course played right into their hands. The final chapter is not yet written. Carter was ate up with the dumbass and we will pay for it for a long time.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 00:52:53 (ZULU)

Sinister;

You have mail, sir. Also, if needed, I have a brother who was trained and instructed? on the M21 at Bragg.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 01:32:04 (ZULU)

MK4- Them damn Chinks had a foot hold in Panama when I was stationed down there in 1988-89. They had a company, called Green Bay, on the Atlantic side in the bay beside a hooch (aka-LBF/Panamainian)military barracks.

I actually get to got shooting in the morning with Chuck Hunt. Been a dang month since I was able to go.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 01:46:54 (ZULU)

Dumbass Country...

Had piled up a few chords of wood a couple hundred yards from the house where the trees were cut. 'bout once a week would go out there and bring a few loads back with a little 2 axle trailer and my garden tractor. Well the upper part of the "U" coupling on the trailer had previously broken off from excessive tounge weight. The hitch was a simple bar hitch and I would place the remaining 1/2 of the trailer's "U" tounge on top, pin it, and hold the bottom of the pin on with some vice grips. Seemed to work ok.

On this particular occation brought back a little too much for the wood box so decided to leave some in the trailer. I was in the habit of saving space in my garage by parking the tractor over the disengaged trailer tounge so that the tounge went under the tractor's rear axle. So, here I am standing over the "rigged" hitch assembly forgetting that there is about 300 lbs of split oak to the rear of the 2 axle trailer. When I diengaged the vice grips the sumbitch ass ended and the trailer tounge wacked me in the mouth knocking me out cold. The previously broken "U" cut all the way through my upper lip just below my nose. When I awoke my trusty German Shep. Sabre was lapping up the pool of blood that my head now sat in.

1 trip to the emergency room. Friend of the family was a reconstructive surgeon. Left a surprisingly small scar - - compared to the one left on the dumb-ass part of my brain.

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 02:41:37 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just home from duty. New Winchester M70 Stealth .223 awaited me. Wiped it down and looked at it closely. Didn't the Stealth used to have a basket weaved pattern recoil pad. May put one on if I don't like the issue one. It's about .75" thick and a bit on the soft side for my tastes.

Evidence of test fire, but almost NO wear on the locking lugs.

Will reserve judgement until break in and load development....

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 07:06:15 (ZULU)

Good article, unless of course you were born with common sense; in which case this is just another "no shit, sherlock":

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37039

Now, if I was running ops with local nationals, part of their bona fides would be a blatant betrayal of my opposition. I'll pay ya, but you gotta give up a buddy or two...then, if my ops get compromised and the leak was thru my interpreter, like depicted here--this little nugget of betrayal goes public. I may not end up with the most savory characters, but by god they'll not tell my secrets either! The BGs seem to enjoy offing those who help us; imagine what they'd do to one who actually betrayed them too. Heheh.

Only the army would reinvent this wheel.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 11:00:09 (ZULU)

Ref Chinese,

Why in the world did Clinton start the "favored Nation" trading cr@p with them? And why is it continuing today under the new administration? All the stuff our country buys and american businesses go there to build will only finance more of their s@#$.

The average american is too concerned about having his DVD player and other gaggets that he doesnt care where they come from. Saw a story on CBS,,..probably 2 -3 yrs back about the WWJD (what would jesus do) trinkets seen all over the place. Turned out that they were manufactured under slave labour conditions and the money went into the chinese Army coughers directly. But you still see the stuff in the shops.

Two nights ago there was a story on ABC local news about a group of women there were throwing these party things where other women would spend hundereds at a party, on decorative trappings for the home and garden. Undercover investigation revealed the money was being funneled in the Al-quada network. Sneaky as# Bas##$#%#. When are americans gonna wake up?!

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 13:51:22 (ZULU)

Steve; I think the democrat's theory behind that China deal was that if they established enough trade they would be hard pressed to attack their grocery bag. Places like Hong Cong, Monte Carlo, and Japan itself are testiment to the fact that it does work some. Sometimes the expense of our own home businesses is in the price and makes us poorer but less likely to get blown off the map or at least that's the dove democrats theory of it. I'm more inclined to the kill em, burn em, rape em theory, but our problem is when we are between those theories to the point we go broke watching our back and selling out our own export trade and home country's manufacturing business.

When we forget how to fight then we must learn to negotiate.

(surely somebody said that somewhere, sometime. )

Edit; I should add that the people who set up all this foreign trade are mostly motivated strickly by profit and could care less as long as they get their cut.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 14:31:15 (ZULU)

"...the War on Terror is global. It can't be confined to Afghanistan or to any other bad neighborhood. You can't put police tape around a failed civilization." -- Ralph Peters. Click on my name for the link.

Wes: Why would one worry about the density of a recoil pad on a .223? It's not like there is any recoil.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 14:34:01 (ZULU)

Excerpt from an email from the wife:

"lots of cards in the mail. The girls had a blast opening them. Raegan and Peanut are having a great time playing. "

The rest involved plans for my homecoming...rather private stuff. Now, you folks are all on my tab whenever our paths cross. No doubt!

Peanut is still not showing signs of the chicken pox. Odd, we thought we'd be there by now. The immune-boosters may be better than I thought, or we got lucky, or we just haven't waited long enough. Raegan is out of quarantine--she is no longer a virus factory--so Mom is happy...all her chicks (damned if that ain't literal) are back under one roof.

Prayers work.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 14:53:05 (ZULU)

MFN status with China was required to gain access to their markets. About 1B and counting, it is a significant number of people to sell stuff to. Capitalism is also a cornerstone of effective democracies, which in many cases is more effective than religeous or political ideology. Other nations need to grow economically in order for us to continue to prosper. However, the rate and methods in which this is happening is disturbing.

That, combined with the waves of dumbshits that are coming out of our schools, just accelerates the job loss to other countries that are hungry for opportunity and are willing to become educated to earn the business.

Duman
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 15:26:44 (ZULU)

Joe….Good news about Peanut and Raegan. Hope things continue on the high road until you get home. May God continue to watch over your family and you.

HDR
OK, - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 16:05:03 (ZULU)

Well if you USA folks hadn't pushed the 308 winchester or 7.62 x51(T65) as the NATO round so damn hard we'd have had the superior British 280 round that was on " also ran" list years ago, so now we are going to take seriouse looks at the 6.8mm 270 = 6.858mm, 280 = 7.112mm. so whats this 6.8 thing gonna be then. 140 grain boolit, about 2445 Fps from a 43mm long case? rings a few bells. sounds like a good intermediate round to me..

No pigs tonight, pub..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 16:26:33 (ZULU)

Joe,

Yes, indeed, prayers do work. I know that as well as I know my own name.

But I have to believe that good old-fashioned karma does, too!

You've given a lot of comfort to our men and women over there. Time for some of it to come home to you and yours.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 17:11:17 (ZULU)

Joe M, one of my team leaders has what we call the SWAK file folder. Shit We Already Knew(SWAK). All the stupid stuff coming down from higher that's being passed like it's an epiphany direct from God goes in the SWAK folder because it IS nothing new. It's amazing that we have all these programs and policies and procedures on how to wage war, that were developed by some smart mofos through years of pain and failure, and the folks that tell us to heed them like gospel ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE F**KING THINGS AND HAVE NO IDEA THAT THEY ARE REINVENTING THE WHEEL!

Oh well, way above my paygrade. Other than that things are going well. I need to hit you off line from my work account. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 17:14:07 (ZULU)

Steve S... Clinton didn't start the MFN status with China: Nixon did. And it was for just the reasons sited by Broger & Duman (capitolism leads to democracy, or maybe just enough economic interest in continued civilization NOT to start WW3).

All that being said, China's still a communist country, and as such should be watched, closely. They've been building a blue-water navy for the past decade, and our intel orgs are doing their usual job: BDD(Blind Deaf Dumb).

They'll soon have the resourses to enforce their will in the strait (for a time), or they'll announce they have nucs stationed in one or more of the ports they control, and defy us to interfere.

Nobody really knows what will win out in China (least of all them), the strong military interests that want to go after Tiawan, or economic interests in foreign trade. To top it all off there's a power struggle going on within the party in China. The winners of that struggle will determine a lot, and not just the seating arrangments at the Central Committee's banquet.

Fundamentally, our facing up to the War on Terror rather that pretending it isn't really there helps with China. They've not made a practice in history of major confrontations, and they didn't like the outcome of the last one with us (Korea, horrendous losses, big black-eye for Mao). Our being (acting) strong helps prevent some rising figure from using a war with us to consolidate his support at home.

Sorry about the length: I'm a History Major, can't help it, besides: China's been on my worry list for about four years.

Bill Mc

Bill McCormick
God bless our troops, in harm's way. - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 17:44:46 (ZULU)

I’m no History major but I do watch the History Channel a lot.

What little I know about China comes from living and working there. I can tell you that the China we see today is less of a threat to our survival than the China of the 1960s.

Today most Chinese has something they have lived without for a long time, hope. For the first time in living memory they have opportunity and freedom in an economy that is booming. Yes, I said freedom. The Chinese people are free to pursue their interests so long as they don’t criticize the government. The People’s Republic of China is Communist in name only. The Government of the PRC is totalitarian with a ruling class defined by Party membership. Otherwise the idea of Communism has been flushed. There is little or no central economic planning anymore and the collectives have pretty much been broken down and turned over to entrepreneurs.

Militarily the Chinese are not unlike the Soviets in their big and dumb approach to the art and science of war fighting. I’ve had the opportunity to see first hand examples of their equipment and their servicemen. I’ve seen lots of form but little substance. Yes they are a nuclear power and that should concern all of us. But today the Chinese have so much more to loose than ever before they are most unlikely to risk it.

On the subject of the renegade province of Taiwan, the Chinese will have it back someday. They know it and we know it. I see a peaceful transition not unlike Hong Kong and Macau. We westerners think of things in terms of years. The Chinese see things in terms of decades and centuries. They will get what they want, eventually.

Remember, all power flows west. The Persians had their turn, the Romans had their turn, the English and Spanish had their turn, we’re having our turn, and the Chinese will have their turn.

Kevin
Clifton, n, USA - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 19:29:54 (ZULU)

Soapbox Country:

Pardon me while I rant, but I just recieved some news today that upset me a bit. Some of you know me and know my credentials, but suffice it to say I am an American thru and thru and the following is not a "slam" on our great nation at all, but merely a slight pissing on of a few within our government.

We have dropped the ball. Ever since the OSS during WWII was changed into the CIA, we have not had a decent intelligence source (with the exception of the snatch and grab tactics of the SEALs in Viet Nam) that could carry it's weight worth a sh!t. We speak of a global war on terrorists (Saddam being a pricktater, and supporting terrorism, but not a terrorist), but the worst offenders have not even been mentioned. I have been involved in central and southern Africa for some time, and I am stunned that America has not intervened and that the UN has only taken cursory glances.

Case in point-Uganda. After Amin fell from power the second time, the provincial government has flourished, despite terrorism from Rawanda and the Sudan. American lives were lost here, folks, and we did nothing. The CIA have been watching Uganda closely and even report that Uganda has one of the strongest emerging economies in the world. Still we do nothing. Sudanese rebels have resorted to cannabalism and are being helped by Somali warlords and Al Queida and still we do nothing. Uganda begged for our help and we still did nothing. Enter Russia. They signed a deal with Uganda (huge natural rescources by the way) to provide equipment and training. We lost a potentially valuable pipeline to a good deal of raw material (gold, oil, etc.) to our allies.

I was set to take a job in Uganda next fall as a park warden working the Sudanese border, but our State Department has told me I cannot take the job and keep my US citizenship, even though I would not be a member of their military, merely an advisor. Bullsh!t.

Then take Zimbabwe. This country is a human rights nightmare. social and political terrorism has abounded there for a while now. You cannot drive thru South Africa without seeing shanty towns full of refugees, who cross the border by the tens of thousands every month. Terrorism and anarchy are the rule of the day there, still we do nothing.

In deference to Marius having to live there, I'll try not to piss off the South Africans too much, but the current ruling party, the African National Congress, is still recognized by the US as a terrorist organization. We stepped in to disarm South Africa and end Aparthied, but allowed terrorists to step in to power. We didn't end Aparthied, we only reversed it. That being said, I actually think the problems there will get better with the next elections.

Look closer to home-less than 200miles from where I am typing, Fidel Castro is enjoying a nice Cuban cigar, still we do nothing.

Now I know the democrats would never allow President Bush to send troops to those places, but we will all cry foul when something bad comes our way from one of them. I'm sure the demos will be blaming Bush for not doing anything!

Rant off-sorry folks. Pisses me off when I'm tord I cannot do something that would mean $200,000 a year for my family. Especially when the job description is training native park wardens in small unit interdiction tactics TO FIGHT TERRORISM!

Rob

Robert Martin
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 19:42:21 (ZULU)

Pete,

<<Well if you USA folks hadn't pushed the 308 winchester or 7.62 x51(T65) as the NATO round so damn hard we'd have had the superior British 280 round that was on " also ran" list years ago>>

Aw Pete, quit yer whingin..haha...the 280 will likely come back as an innovative design by a crack engineering team at some major US armament manufacturer soon enough...hell, all they have to do is rename it 7mmx38...

JR
the muckletoon, scotland, - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 20:25:51 (ZULU)

Guys,

I'll give someone (hopefully) a chance to respond to something actually involving a rifle.:o) Just picked up a Minty Winchester Target Rifle in 30-06. Completely box stock with Redfield International sights. Question: Are the adjustments 1/4MOA, and when making adjustments, should I go past my intended stopping point and then reverse adjustment direction to account for backlash? I just know there has to be atleast one 'ol time match shooter here.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 20:44:18 (ZULU)

Robt; I think all of America shares your concerns about the goings on in Africa. But we just have to face the fact that we can sweep up everywhere at once. G.W. told us the war on terror would be a long one and a costly one. I believe we could blow the whole wad in just a few months and exhaust our man power at the same time. Imagine the problems that Sinister has expressed with training sources and multiply that many times over to cover the continent of Africa and all the maverick goverments there. Not to mention the forces within this country that would raise their ugly hackles and scream racial mistreatment if we even looked into some of the goings on there.

Can you say "Blackhawk down syndrom!" to the n'th power?

As to your personal situation, I think bullshit is the correct word. The key phrase there God Bless em ..."merely an advisor!" Where have we heard that one before? I have a good friend who just arrived in Iraq to help the energy situtation get straightened out. He can go anywhere between his hotel and the next one as long as he stays behind the concrete barrier and doesn't get too far from his Gurka's.

We cannot win this through local actions. We have to get tough enough to make the enemy afraid to do this shit. We won't so we better get used to a long siege of political and logistical problems.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 20:47:59 (ZULU)

Don: The better made sights don't need that...but it sounds like a cool ritual to me anyway! That reminded me of laying in an old 81 mortar...we'd approach the mil's from "clockwise only" for the same reason your asking that question.

Heheh...if your that good with irons; mang I'm not entering the match! Heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 20:51:51 (ZULU)

Don; if there's any doubt. Put a screen type bore sighter in the bore and observe what happens when you go off zero and bring it back. Check the clicks anywhere on the screen. You will be able to see it. If not it don't matter.

Brogers
Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 21:58:13 (ZULU)

Maj. Joe e-mail coming your way no attachments.

B. Murray what part of WV are you from? I live near Morgantown. Alway good to find other shooters in the area. Drop me an email.

Keith

Keith
North Central , WV, - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 22:34:50 (ZULU)

video alert:

CBS - "Navy NCIS" program for those with strong stomachs:

Tuesday, February 10, 8PM ET/PT

"One Shot, One Kill"

With the help of his agents, Gibbs must locate a sniper who is killing Marine recruiters and leaving a white feather behind as his calling card.

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/navy_ncis/

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 23:48:48 (ZULU)

Williams ST floorplate came in today. Damn nice idea that Williams had on that double safety thingy. I don't even think that clumsy me could accidently open the door and let the boolits fall out.

Note to self.........

When sumpin doesn't fit right, especially expensive sumpins that are sposed to fit right, check for the obvious reasons first. Put the PSS into the A5 stock with the Williams plate tonight. Torqued everything down per spec.

Go to pull bolt back, damn thing wouldn't budge. I said to myself, SELF, WTF is going on? After saying newly thought up cuss words I decide to pull the action back out of the stock for lack of a better idea. Got the screws backed out, pulled action out and magically the bolt started working. Hhhhmmmmmmm and again I said to myself, SELF look at that perty shiny place on the bolt when the friggin forward action screw was too long and bound the bolt up. Off to the grinder to take a itty bit of the action screw off. And, off to the wire brush wheel to make it look like I didn't screw anything up. SO, now the bolt works fine.

Decided to put it together again. Got it torqued back down and the figgin barrel was tight to the stock, and I mean so tight that I couldn't get a piece of toilet paper between the tube and stock tight. Made up some more cuss words. Pulled it back down again and called McMillan. Said send it with the barreled action and they would fix it. Thinking again that sumpin this expensive is supposed to work right, I called our friend Terry Cross who just happened to be in the shop. He said that sometimes they are a little tight and can be relieved before bedding if it wasn't excessive. After I hung up, A LIGHT GOES OFF IN HEAD! Something has to be in the way of this thing setting in the stock the way it is. I sighted down the channel and low and behold I see this little bubble of epoxy that had squeezed out of one of the stud holes and was sticking up about a 1/16" above the barrel channel. I popped the bubble off with a knife. Put the rig back together for the third time. IT FIT. Evidently that little piece of epoxy was throwing the stock tight to the right side. Can now get a business card down the channel, which really isn't enough for my liking (I like about a 1/16" play around the tube) but at least now I'm getting somewhere!

Moral of the story, check for obvious things that can muck something up first!

You are returned to your regularly scheduled programming, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 00:54:53 (ZULU)

quick review of tonight's "Navy - NCIS" episode w/o spoilers.

Good technical detail overall.

Little shakey on ballistic matching and calibration of acoustic triangulation transducers.

And the ultimate praise of a TV show involving firearms:

It didn't make me cringe.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 02:16:51 (ZULU)

Dumass Chronicles, I might as well share my blunders. At 14 years old I was fox hunting. While crossing a fence my muzzle became snow packed.I attempted to blow it out. Instead the muzzle stuck to my lip. Lesson learned.

Last Christmas I got a Winchester Apex muzzle loader . Stainless fluted , synthetic, 45 cal with a Leupold 2x7, butler creek caps. While sighting in I forgot to take the ramrod out. Wow, what an increase in recoil.Scope went into the bridge of my nose. Ramrod went into a pine tree 100 yards down range and 10' to the right. It looked like a corkscrew and was about 4" into the tree. I unscrewed it and kept it for a reminder. My head hurt for a couple days. Lesson learned.

Learn from others mistakes for you will not live long enough to experience them all yourself.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 02:58:21 (ZULU)

John A.

You have E-Mail N/A !

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy., Indiana, U.S.A. - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 03:29:46 (ZULU)

N(avy)CIS - review. Rod, I also watched it and enjoyed it, BUT... when he mentioned Hathcock, he said 39 confirmed kills instead of 93 confirmed kills... Other than that, it was quite good (but what does a dumb-ass bubblehead know...)

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 04:13:09 (ZULU)

Here's something rifle related:

I been laying behind one out in the rain for the last 6.5 hours.

My ass is cold and my ass is wet. It's 10:30PM and I'm leaving for SHOT at 4:00 AM. Just stowed my gear.

What in the hell am I doing on the Roster? ...

brian k. sain
Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 04:51:39 (ZULU)

BMG Mikes BMG foulup:

Was at a MG shoot a few years back with my then-relatively-new 1919A4. On the first morinig, I decided to change the caliber before I started shooting . Swap barrel, spacers, and gas booster. The gas booster swapper is a wrench which fits over the end of the barrel. Visualize a 2" diameter x 2" long hollow tool, with one end closed. Well, in my haste, I failed to remove the wrench.

The first round impacted the booster wrench, splattering the round and starting to launch the wrench downrange. As the wrench departs the end of the muzzle, it forms a venturi with the end of the barrel, which blasts hot gas and hot bullet fragments in a rearward direction, wherein was my face. I caught about a dozen fragments in my face and throat, and another dozen or so on my shooting glasses.

Needless to say, all of the above happened before I could say S**t! - but that's what I said immediately after. After picking the metal out of my face and getting some betadine on the wounds, I went back to check out the gun. Other than the booster wrench, nothing was amiss. I was back on line within about 20 minutes. The body of the wrench was later found about 30 yards downrange. The end of the wrench was never found. I still wear one of those fragments embedded in my jaw.

Oh, have I ever mentioned that I'm a fanatic about wearing shooting glasses? I was serious before - but I'm dead serious now!

Mike

BMG Mike
Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 05:05:05 (ZULU)

Wow, some of youse guys have some interesting stories!

My own issue of "Stupid Country":

I had on ND, standing around bullshitting out on the farm. I like to talk with my hands once in awhile and one day I was shooting over the hood of my truck sighting in my Marlin M60. My ex father in law walks up while I am in the middle of shooting a group and started talking (he loved to sit around and bullshit). IIRC I think he was interested in the rifle. I started talking with my hands and started to make some sort of gesture....however I had let my finger slip into the trigger of my .22 and I let a round go. Thankfully, my muzzle was pointed straight up. All I could do was look up and wonder where the round was going to come down.

The only other incident **SO FAR...KNOCK ON WOOD AND ALL THAT MUMBO JUMBO*** was reloading related. I have a Class III fanatic buddy, and he called me up asking to load some subsonic match ammo for his suppressed MAC racegun. I loaded up some samples with various charge weights and did some load development with him to see what the gun liked and what worked the best. The load we settled on was dead quiet, very controllable, and super accurate to boot. I loaded a batch on my single stage for him, and he won plaques in his next two subgun matches with it. Now he is all in love with this load and happy as a clam. Anyway, a few weeks later I had just went from a single stage press to a progressive and was still learning it. He called me up the day before a match and needed some ammo. So I loaded up a couple hundred rounds for him and dropped them off.

Two days later he calls and asks me what charge I used on the ammo. I asked him "why" and his answer was "well, it blew up my gun". I had visions of a KB'd MAC and was really bad off. Of course I felt awful. Well, it wasn't as bad as I feared, but bad enough. One round had no powder in it, when fired it lodged in the very short barrel near the muzzle. He was firing on full auto and by his account, it was "pop..buuuuuurrrrp!" then "POW", as the cyclic rate shot up with bullets stacking in the barrel, until the bolt fell on a round that wasn't fully chambered. The half chambered round went off, and the overpressure in the reciever blew the back plate and guide rod off the back of the lower, and cracked the upper reciever from the ejection port up across the top. These weapons are known for cracking in that very spot on the upper when subjected to heavy use, and he already had a replacement on hand. The event made the replacement necessary a little bit earlier. Being a mechanic and machinist, he had no problem rewelding the back plate and restoring the weapon. Thankfully!

I am a novice reloader and have reloaded (roughly) around 1000 .308, 3k .45ACP, a couple thousand .223, 500 9mm, and about 3k 12ga shotshells. To date, that was the one bad round I had. The one ammo related KB I have had personally, was with a surplus 5.56 round that split the case, and blew the mag out all over the ground in pieces on one of my AR's.

I don't reload for anyone else anymore!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 06:35:27 (ZULU)

Gents,

Brian, so what were you doing laying in the rain for 6.5 hours, just training?...;-)

Enjoy the Shot Show...

Lindy, my reference to the .75" Winchester recoil pad on a .223 had nothing to do with recoil(before you think I'm a wimp), but that it was too spongy/soft for my liking.

Tonight is my Friday. Wednesday and Thursday off. Rounds downrange while wife gets new counter tops.

Kevin is correct about China. They will bide their time. We have made them a modern manufacturing country. Pick something up today and I'll bet it says "Made in Chinaa" on it. Remember, we did the same with Japan, Taiwan, etc., after the war.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 06:52:39 (ZULU)

Has anyone else ever heard of a state governor launching his own website to promote his anti gun views and to raise funds to defend his constituents against the attack of rabid special interest groups such as the NRA?

Allow me to introduce to you, Governor of Wisconsin, Jim Doyle:

www.noconcealedweapons.com

This is two weeks after he pleaded to the Legislature on TV to "please, let us move past 'guns' and get on to the more important issues we face in Wisconsin", then slammed the majority party in all media outlets for focusing on the issue.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 08:02:45 (ZULU)

Thanks all for the Match sight advice.

Maj. Joe,

Nobody ever accused me of being good.:o)

Bolt,

Sounds like your conversations with SELF turn out better than mine. I can't get the SOB to listen.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 12:32:31 (ZULU)

JR, you know that we should have adopted the brit round back in 53, then us brits would have gotten the EM2, the Brit version of the Fal was originaly designed for the .280, the EM2 couldn't easily be reworked for the 7.62x51 so it got side lined, we ended up with that (only scimilarity with the EM2 was that it was Bulpup) crock of shit the L85A1 SA80.

Anyways, sounds like we might have a bit of a Roster Re-union at the IWA, Marco the Cloggy got intouch today, " ABOUT BLOODY TIME MARCO IF YOU ARE WATCHING" and expressed interest in coming along.

I'm going to the range in an hour to play with my 06, doe some final in-accuracy testing before i pull the barrel. I will dutifully load only one round at a time.. see how it underperforms, damn i wish i knew what i'd done at it to stop it shooting so good..

another dumb assed stunt was pulled by my new trainee last night. We just got a new trainee controller a week or two ago, nice bloke, just left the Brit Army last year, was a Sergeant Major with an air defence arty unit, anyhow, he no speako much Kraut, so he goes to the chemist with a little indigestion, wanting some thing for it, well the chick in the chemists must have not quite understood his problem. He took 1 tablet, no workie,, took another, still no workie.. ended up taking five of the things, then he came to meet us in the pub at 19.00, and then he asks us to translate the damn instructions with the tablets.. well we just rolled about in laughter.. he'd been given laxatives,, they workie in 12 hours.. guess where he was at 05.00 hrs this morning, sat on the throne, he is looking decidedly drained today.. i love having ex squaddies work here, they sure are a lot more fun than the civie student types we get..

Right.. the range is calling..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 13:00:56 (ZULU)

Pete: on one of our trips in France, one of our party had a need for a laxative, a word that was not in our French vocabulary, because of overindulgence in fine French cheese. A sympathetic druggist managed to decipher what we needed from some pretty explicit and direct sign language. It's amazing how much communication can occur if one is willing to be embarrassed...

Wes: well, as my sweetie says, "If it's not hard, what good is it?"

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 14:10:04 (ZULU)

Fred; we have a local fellow here who bagged a nice buck with his ramrod.

I'm reminded of the time I unloaded my single action .45revolver one two three four five six. Then just to be sure I dropped the hammer 6 more times..as I aimed it at the hot water tank in the next room just to be sure and dropped the hammer. It didn't leak for several months and then all came out in one afternoon. Yes there were only 5 rounds on top of the table after the tank shot...

Or there was the time I had changed Powder measures,read the scale wrong and got 50 grains of 4320 in my .243 load on a A-bolt browning. IT went nuke of course and almost froze the bolt. That was only the beginning. I dropped a round in the floorboard somehow from the same batch and apparently and it got back in the gun later to actually freeze it up the next time. My Grandad had an old Model 10 Remington shotgun and it was a bottom ejector of course. He always jacked out all the rounds on the floor and then pulled the trigger one more time. We repaired the floor at least once every year or two. The problem came when his influence caused me to unload my Marlin 39m the same way. Grandma wasn't thrilled about the hole in her couch but it got me to thinking about not pulling a trigger in the house till the water heater incident.

Brogers
Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 15:09:09 (ZULU)

ND's..........

Last one I had was after moving back to NM.

Moving van had the safes, I had the guns. Always wiped everything down when they went back into the safes.

Series 70 Colt with a Commander hammer was getting wiped down with a WD-40 soaked rag, preparatory to nightstand duty in the new hacienda.

No guns in the safe yet (Thank God!), just the tax records in the bottom. Door open, loaded the Colt with Glasers (Thank God again!!) and went to ease the hammer down on the chambered round. Greasy thumb slipped, Glaser into the safe, shredding tax documents. Lots of noise when you shoot into an open empty safe from one foot distance. Lots.

Previous wife, in the kitchen, was less than impressed by my pistol-handling skills. Seems it was pretty loud in there, too.

Keeping that muzzle pointed down and away was what kept me safe. Ears rang for a week or so, and had to change my drawers, but the only real damage was to the tax stuff and a slight crease in the door jamb of the safe, which I see every time I open that door.

I have the jacket from the Glaser slug on top of the safe as a reminder.

Y'all Stay Safe.........Really.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 15:55:03 (ZULU)

See Bruce?

Glaser SAFETY Slug. That's why no hurt. :)

I know a fella who, years ago, developed a new rule: when building new lower receivers, no alcoholic content drinks until AFTER test firing is done. Seems he needed to replace a living room picture window or something.

Governor Doyle, Hmmph, What an ass.

Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 16:45:05 (ZULU)

China, Don't get me started with that one. Our country's semi conductor buisiness is in a rapid decline cuase of thier slave labor. I am pissed at GW for not using tariffs to slow the process and possibly reverse it.

Cuba- I would begin trading with them if for cigars a lone. Plus Commie rule will probably end with Castro I hope. It would be hastend by our trading with them and showing what capatailizim would do for thier country.

Dumn ass sunts- We would be here all day if I began typing. Shot truck not once but twice. There have been scuba mishaps, driving mishaps by the dozen, all involve speed and some include alcohol. One involved changing a tire on a cliff I was driving down. Trust me its a cliff when you try to change a tire on it. Swimming with caimen(Sp?)/gators. Tried petting a wild bear once. Was three feet a way when he proved to be smart enough for both of us and ran off.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 17:23:38 (ZULU)

Many years ago while in the house, i was putting the S&w459 back together. Loaded a clip , gave it a good slap to make sure it hit home and POW . the bullet(corebon +p) went through the door, across the hall,through my sisters door and skimed across her bed,punched a hole through her pillow and out the window. She was in the shower at the time.She had just gotten out of bed.Not a happy camper when she saw the hole in her pillow.

After that stunt, ihave been very careful not to repeat.

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 17:52:15 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve... Man, I want to hang out with you! No, to watch, not take part!

What? Me, dumb stunts? Uhm, err, ugh, no not that I recall. (Books, volumes, could be written. Not that anyone would believe 'em).

Bill McCormick
God bless our troops, in harm's way. - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 18:09:34 (ZULU)

Govenors,

The guy is running scared, along with the other turncoat. Put the heat on both and keep it there till they're gone.

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 19:32:27 (ZULU)

WR Moore: I think that writer's name had a G or J for 1st or Mid name, like G{J}erry or Gary, so you might be right. Didn't buy the mag. Can't recheck till I find it somewhere again. There was no sidebar info provided on the author.

6.8 SPC he also claimed MOA to 600yd. And in his custum CZ that he got 3rd groups of .94in best; avg of 1.18in with the 110gn Hornady VMAX handload.

On CBS NCIS show: I liked it. Didn't think it was "anti" in tone. The "incidents" were just facts they were dealing with. Besides the miscount on Hathcock's confirmed, they sort of bent the white feather bussiness. Hathcock wore it, he didn't leave them as "calling cards" as the jerk in the show did. Also, the firing port he made by removing a single EDGEWISE brick would have been too small. He couldn't have angled the barrel towards the target, or seen anything but brick wall through the scope.

I like this series so far. It's better than JAG in that they don't push all the "PC" issues as JAG does. The coronor/med examiner made a mistake in an earlier show like the 39--93 mistake last night. He was talking about the Cav Carbine from 1870's--Trapdoor--and didn't call it a .45-70. Forget now, but think he called it a 40-70. Maybe he or the writer is a shooter and got mixed up with the .40-65 round.

Anyway, an error.

artee
Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 20:01:51 (ZULU)

Is anyone Familiar with the variant premium Floorplate/Triggerguard Assemblies out there today? Four I'm interested in are Badger, HS Precision, Williams and D. D. Ross. Am I missing any good ones I should consider? I'm rebuilding my 700P/SA.

Thanks for the help!

Northside Tommy

Tom Coleman
Harwood Heights, IL, 60706 - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 20:02:44 (ZULU)

Well, i aint ever had an ND with a firearm, but as the chant goes in the film " Full Metal jacket" " this is my rifle this is my gun, this is for shootin' this is for fun" well, i've had more than one ND with me tadger, but its up for debate which causes the most bother afterwards.

JR, i didn't catch the start of the 6mm 6.8 or what ever it was debate, we talking military of civie use.

Now if we are talking Military the:

Well, from the begining of the smokeless powder era, it was a sensible policy for military forces to adopt a single caliber for infantry rifles and machine guns, the caliber choice varied form country to country. Most selected high power cartridges some where between 7 and 8 mm, some went for 6.5 and one or two 6mm rounds also existed.

The USA had the 30-06 in the Springfield and the Browning M-Guns, the Brits had the 303 in the SMLE and the Lewis gun and the brownings too.

Along comes WWII and a different approach, the Germans figured that a 2 caliber arming of the infantry was the way to go. Infantry combat distances where relatively short for the most part, and it was figured to be unnessecary and even a waste to arm infantry bods (blokes) with rifles firing tha same ammo as the machine guns ( in this case the MG42 etc firing the 8x57. So they came up with the 8mm Kurz and built the Sturmgewehr 44 (StG44) around this short round. Now, the German Falschirmjaeger battalions went with an opposite aproach, they stuck to the one caliber, with the FG42, which was a select fire battle rifle which fired the 8x57 mauser service rifle cartridge as did the MG's and the 98 and 98K. This decision was apparently brought about because during the invasion of Crete they found them selves out gunned at range by the Brit rifles and machine guns firing the 303.Now the Russians jumped on the German idea band wagon developing thier own short or intermediate cartridge in 1943, it saw limited issue untill 1949 when it became general issue, do i need to name it?

A few years later the Brits where looking for some thing to replace the Sten and the SMLE, The USA is looking for a relpace ment for the Garand and the M1 carbine, the rest of Nato will follow suit.

Now these opposing trains of thought between the one round for all and two rounds cropped up again when looking for the standard round to be adopted by NATO forces. This lead up to the 1953 trails. Now the Brits where infavour of the 280 British, (7x43) which was a 14o grain bullet, out of a bottle knecked case at about 2445 Fps. Basicaly this cartridge offered a significant advantage over the 9x19 fired by the Sten, the 7.92x33 ( The German 8mm Kurz) and the Russian 7,62x39. giving better penetration and effective range but at a lesser recoil than the 303 or the 7.62x51. Belgium and Canada showed significant interest in the 280 British. FN producing the FAL and RSAF producing the EM2 both in 280Brit (7x43), The US military tested both assault rifles and where apparently very impressed by the FN FAL,The British approved the EM2 for adoption as the British Service rifle in 1951 as the " Rifle, Automatic caliber 280.No9 Mk1. The Em2( No9Mk1) was a well produced rifle, ergonomicaly laid out, easy controls, accurate and reliable. Had the 280 been adopted for NATO issue the British forces would have had a superb battle rifle of British design well before 1960. But the US wanted the advantages of full power round that retained almost the range and power of the 30-06 and a single caliber for rifles and M/guns. Of course the logistics advantages of using a single round cannot be deniged.Both Britain and the USA had fought in Korea using a variety of small arms with different calibers, 30-06, 30 carbine and the .45 in the Submachine guns. It was desired to have a 2 gun line up(plus a sniper rifle) with infantry rifles, sniper rifles and machine guns sharing the same type of ammo. The US bieng the most influencial member of Nato leaned hard on the others and the 7.62x51 was adopted and became the standard NATO round just after the Korean war.The Brits, The Canuks and the Belgians and a whole load of others adopted the variouse versions of the FN Fal in 7.62x51 and some type of gen purpose machine gun firing the same round. The USA now had theM14,(and the M60 as a GPMG)the M14, which was supposed to be a light weight infantry rifle (when compared to the Garand) displayed inadequate controlability when fired on full auto, this lead to the M14 been almost as heavey as the garand. This weight was probably the deciding factor in sealing the M14's fate, apparently the USAF where offered the M14 as a replacement for thier M1 and M2 carbines, but turned it down due to the weight. The USAF adopted the Armalite AR15. it was only slightly heavier than the obsolete carbines. Not long after the AR15 (M16) was up for general issue to the whole of the US military, forcing the Army to go back to the 2 round system, (now i know that winchester M70 in cal 30-06 where bieng used well into vietnam, and you had a 3 round system, but the 06 sniper rifles where bieng used because the sniper rifle programme hadn't caught up with the 7.62x51 in sufficient numbers). Any way, the M16 became standard issue battle rifle for the US military, firing a 62? grain bullet at around 3000 fps, the 5.56x45 (correct me if i'm wrong).

Now i know adopting the 280 british wouldn't have avoided having a 2 round system, and Every Nation that followed suit with the 5.56 nato found it nessecary to stick with the 7.62 Nato for use in M/guns and Sniper rifles. The Brits stuck with the one round for all until the late 80's when we dropped the Fal and adopted that crock of shit the S80 L85A1. and yes since the adoption of the M16 by the USA, light machine guns in the form of Squad automatic weapons firing the 5.56 have also come on the scene. I understand both points of view, the one that favours the single round for all, and the other that desires a 2 round system, one for infantry assault rifles and another for sniper and m/guns.

Of course with the sniper rifles we have moved on some what from the 7.62 nato, first to the 300 win mag and next to the 338 lapua (ok i will leave out the MG in 50 cal nd the SWS in 50 cal) so what we have effectively at the moment is a 4 round system. a 5.56 assault rifle, (and a squad auto weapon using same), we have a 7.62x52 GPMG, some sniper rifles in 7.62 some in 300 win mag and some in 338 lapua. To me the 338 lapua is tending towards the anti material role like the 50 cal sniper weapons and is perhaps a little to much for general anti personel sniping.

The question must be raised, is the one round family of general issue infantry weapons a viable option. I guess we have to weigh up the odds of what we desire.

1. An infantry assault rifle. Weapon and Ammo should weigh as little as possible but be consistent with a maximum effective range of 500m ( ok in the Dm role the envelope can be stretched some what)

2. The GPMG, again weight considerations as with the assault rifle, but we need to up the maximum effective range to what, maybe 1200m and we need the ability for the M/gun ball ammo to defeate targets (hard) at least as well as the 7.62 nato. Tracers need to be visible at 800m + range.

3. Sniper rifle, weight of weapon and ammo is not as an important consideration as for 1 and 2 above, but accuracy and effective range and flat trajectory are important.

Of all the characteristics i just mentioned the snipers requirement for accuracy and flat trajectory (leading to short time of flight of the bullet) would seen the most important, hence this would seeem to be the logical starting point for any development of a one round system.

So in order to achieve flat trajectory we need a bullet with a high BC, streamlined shape propelled at high velocity, the higher the BC and velocity the flatter the trajectory. but bullet weight must also play a factor, we need to effectively combat the effects of wind as well as we can and also muct have at least as good terminal balistic effect and penetration as the 7.62 NAto.

we need to have a bullet that is lighter than the 7.62 Nato ball (147 grain right?) but heavier than the 5.56 Nato, (62 grain right?) I guess some where between 100 and 125 grains would be about right. So where does all this lead us.. straight back to a bullet between 6 and 7 mm. And folks are starting to take a look see in this direction. Now if we had adopted the 280 British in 1953 as the standard Nato round, i believe it would have been developed and improved and we would have ended up with a 110 grain bullet at about 3000 fps, this would have been controlable in the assault rifle, effective in the machine gun and would about match the trajectory of the 300 win mag out to 1000 yards if we used the right bullet. Sure the 50 cal M/Guns and sniper rifles and the 338's have thier place, as do subsonic sniper rifles, but they are specialist cases and not general purpose. I believe we will end up with a 6 to 7 mm NATO cartridge before 2025 and it will be fired from assault rifles, GPMG's and Sniper rifles. If we had gonw withe the 280 British, we would have had the same by 1980.

Sorry for the band widthand the rambling, some may view this as bull shit, maybe ive some inaccuracies in there, but i'm sure you get the point, we are about to re invent the wheel.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 21:04:10 (ZULU)

You want a story, well in the words of Monty Python, "And now for something completely different"...

I was cooking dinner a little while ago and was making seasoned fries to go with the main course. I loaded the deep fat frier with fries and came back to check a couple minutes later. As I turned to leave the deep fat frier exploded sending the cover flying across the room and painting a pretty picture of grease on the ceiling and cabinets. Upon checking in the Frier, I found the remains of a .45 ACP shell casing and on the counter was a 185 gr .45 Bullet. The carrier in the frier had two holes in it, one from the bullet and one from the shell. As near as I could figure I had some loose rounds on top of the refridgerator and while opening the freezer one must have rolled off and landed in the bag of fries. Or my three year old picked it up and put it there for some reason known only to him. The frier survived without even a scratch and I bent back the carrier. Moral of the story, check your fries before you cook them, you never know when they might be loaded.

Murph

Does this count as an ND?

John Murphy
Milford, NH, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 21:51:45 (ZULU)

Peter lincoln,

You do elloquently show your point of view. You ever think of going into politics? ;o)

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 22:01:13 (ZULU)

Murph, that be a DFD not an ND ( deep fried discharge).

Steve, i dunno, i think one President in the family was enough, but then again there hasn't been a Primeminister Lincoln yet has there. I'm not politicaly correct enough to get ellected, i've got a super immigration policy thought, If they are female and good looking, they are welcome, all others should stay home.

Talking of politics, the what did he do during Vietnam? thing is all we are hearing on the news at the mo over here. Maybe the Bush camp should point out that even Adolf Hitler served well as a Corporal in WW1. So whats the roster opinion on the current stakes..(hit me off line on politics, otherwise we will clog the roster, Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, February 11, 2004, at 22:35:14 (ZULU)

PeteL- specs on the 'Nam era 5.56 were a 55 gr ball at 3150 fps (if I remember right) plus/minus 50 ft/sec from a 20 inch barrel at the 78 feet the US military used for ballistic testing. Yes, this is hotter than SAMMI specs, pressures unknown to meet the military velocity spec.

The trailer story reminded me of moving my machine shop to where I live now. Pulled the trailer down to the basement door. Had to take the tow vehicle out of the yard for some reason I don't remember. No problem until I took the last piece off the trailer. The base for the headstock for my lathe was at the front of the trailer. I set the ramp, got a dolly under the base and started out of the trailer and OH SH************************T when the balance shifted and the tongue came off the ground. Came out of the trailer a whole lot faster than I expected to. Fortunately, I was lined up with the ramp before I passed the balance point.

WR Moore
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 00:01:25 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln,

Email thru s/c on the way, ref politics.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 00:07:27 (ZULU)

Monster Gun Country:

Just ordered a reamer today, sent the specs off to a buddy to cut it. I'm looking for suggestions on a twist rate for this beast. Barrel length will probably be 30" finished on a custom action. For the cartridge, it will be a .505 gibbs case necked down to .375 with slightly blown out walls (neck base diameter of about .610) with 35 degree shoulders. Powder charge should be in the neighborhood of 135gr RL22 (I'll start at 125 to be safe). Bullet will be Sierra Game king 300gr SBT at around 3300fps. It has a bc of about .480. I have 2 other .375's now-std H&H with a 1in12 and a .375H&H AI with a 1in11.25. Question is, would I gain anything going to a 1in10, or would this hurt accuracy? I'm looking for about the same accuracy as a run of the mil 50bmg (about 20" at 1500 with me behind it) in a gun I can legally hunt with:)

And no, I'm not hunting at 1500. South African Big Bore Shooters consider the .375 the minimum light gun caliber for competition. If this works out, I'm selling my .338/416 Rigby Improved if anyone is interested.

Any thoughts?

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 00:30:06 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Mail inbound with a clean attachment plus one with no attachments.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 02:39:52 (ZULU)

Tom Coleman........

On the floor plate issue, I have standard Williams on a 308 HBV, a Dakota on a Rem 700 300mag, and the new Williams ST on a PSS. I have seen the Badger and the Ross. I just went to the Williams and the Brownells site and danged if it doesn't look like they discontinued it. That really sucks cause it looks like a good product. I sent them an email to see what happened. Shoot, looks like a toss up on which one to get now.

Bolt
Damn snow........, NC, - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 02:39:53 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Concur on the cigars.

J. Copeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 05:40:25 (ZULU)

Initial commentary on 6.8 was a fishing expedition on my part.

After considering the 5.56 X 45 history it basically sums up to me as being this:

1- Eugene Stoner / Armalite concern designs M-16 series weapons prototypes and puts a slow twist barrel on a .22 bullet to make it unstable enough to tumble when it hits the target and therefore have effects like a larger bullet (the 30 cal. it was destined to replace). Besides being intended to be as effective as the M-14/30 Cal system on the battlefield it was probably a lot more marketable to those peoples with smaller stature we were going to sell/give them to.

2- Armalite sells rights to Colt...M-16 series weapon / 5.56 X 45 cartridge accepted...NATO partner British .270 cal cartridge rejected due to NATO interoperability concerns. M-16 introduced into battle in Viet Nam theatre of operations. Bugs pop up as usual.

3- After bugs worked out of M-16 system and weapon is performing OK on the battlefield the US Gov. "improves" the system to include incrementally increasing the twist rate to the point where the 5.56 X 45 shoots nice groups for the matches but doesn't tumble as markedly any more when it hits the battlefield target. Terminal effect reported to be "inadequate" with new fast twist rate weapons as judged by reports in literature I have access to from those who acually use the M-16/5.56 X 45 in battle.

4- Now, the 6.8 pops up on the scene. Probably with a twist to make the heavier bullet fly without a slight wobble. A smaller, less potent cousin to the 308 Win as compared to the M-14 series weapons/ammo. Probably similar to the British offering during the initial weapons system trials mentioned earlier. The British may have an opportunity to smile at us if the 6.8 goes on to become the main US battle rifle round. Just so it works.....

My intent was to stimulate some commentary and also to prime the system to get verbal (in the literary sense) so that if the new 6.8 looks to go SNAFU I (and perhaps others) can contact the appropriate political authorities to register (by way of writing) my/our concerns. I was disturbed by the literature I have access to regarding the 5.56 X 45 ammo non-performance in Somalia/Mogadishu leading to what I think were unnecessary risks/harm to US military personnel. I suspect this is not the only time this issue has surfaced. With the taxes I find myself paying I EXPECT US military personnel to have weapons and ammo that WORKS and not something less. Apologies as necessary to those with more knowledge/experience about these matters for what is clearly me up on my soapbox but I felt it necessary to get you all on to why I'm interested in this kind of thing. Also FYI to those "just passing through" this site.

I myself am not considering the 6.8 as a hunting load as all ballistic needs I can imagine are currently well covered by existing cartridges available to the sporting world (factory listed loadings for Rem 6.8 currently include FMJ, match, and soft point bullets for those with more interest on this offering). If the 6.8 can be used in the current generation of rifles with nothing but a barrel/bolt change then it at least probably offers a more effective, relatively quickly implemented round than the 5.56 X 45 (used with a fast barrel twist rate) it would replace. At worst the 6.8 may be a reasonable stopgap measure to save US lives in the field until an entirely new weapons system/cartridge could be fielded.

I was assured after my initial post concerning the 6.8 by those with more experience than my own that the whole thing is in good hands. I'm satisfied with those responses and wish the best of luck to those working on these issues to get the best cartridge possible into the hands of US military ASAP.

I'm back into the shadows again now....

Dennis
Utah, - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 09:21:22 (ZULU)

Bill, That works for glass. If you are a Command Sergeant Major and have one of those calibrated eye attachments--you may see pattern incrementally change on windage. But at sub minute per click--I wouldn't see it. I would recommend a checker board at 50-100 yards for the check. Clamp her down on a machine rest. Sight in, and walk the square by coming off your weld for each adjustment. Reverse and see if it hits the same square. I play chess, so those little boxes all have a name for me. Use whatever works to keep track of the target. If it is repeatable both ways--it is a well made sighting device. All rituals are for luck only---if not, do it the same always.

Don: Okay, I won't accuse you of being good. You are funny though. Hey, is that SOB even listenin'???

Geoff, Maybe I'll follow that POS Guv around during the next campaign and toss my ribbons under his feet every where he goes....and say, "you've walked all over our rights I've sworn to defend, now finish the job you prick..." Heheheh. I hate that sumbe-autch! Wonder what Kerry would think of that?

Stupid country: I walked into the herd of Bou, and had a shoot fest. Emtpied my riffle, but knowing I had five tags, I had a round waiting. As I settled in to shoot, I pulled one out of my outer pocket and stuck er in my teeth and started blasting away. God was with me, I made some shots! Of course, as I eject my last round I am really into a rythm. I grab that last bullet out of my mouth and slam home the bolt (kinda sticky lock up) and down goes the last Bou. Wow. All five just died in their tracks. I am so pumped up I almost didn't notice all the blood on the side of the stock and on my leg. My lips went into the chamber with that round! Did I mention this was a February hunt in the Yukon Valley just south of chicken (I did get better at this each year I went there)? I went home and thawed, and my upper lip blew up like a goodyear blimp! Between the frost nip on my cheeks and that big red bladder--I looked like Ronald McDonald for a week (without the make up). Lesson, never carry rounds in your mouth. The first lesson I thought I learned was don't carry them in outer pockets. That one cost me a day of hunting while I figured out how to thaw a rifle that froze a condensation-cemented round out of the chamber that was just not quite seated! Thank god I had a ride home---guys like me wouldn't have pioneered anywhere in the old days!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 10:06:05 (ZULU)

Pete: The 280 Brit woulda been great, except youz use the wrong kinda primers.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 10:17:51 (ZULU)

Bullet tumbling due to slow twist is largely somebodys BS anyway. Hit anything as large as a blade of grass with a .223 and it will likely go any direction. However twist rate does affect the accuracy to a great degree. A lot of Stoners .223's would tumble because the chamber was burned out in a hour of combat from firing on Full A. Usually not a good thing anywhere.

Dr's (actual MD'S from rear hospitals)from the Vietnam era have told me that it was the velocity of the .223 that did the damage. They hated to treat .223 wounds much more than the 7.62x39 rounds. They maintained that the flesh for 3 inches around the impact point would die due to the hydraulic shock and would remove it where possible. I think this was later thought to be invalid by people who really weren't there. However I think the confusion was due to the fact that the bullet slowed very quickly when it hit the uniform and flesh so that the problem varied from wound to wound and depth to depth. In actual conditions in Australian and Phillipine hospitals the wounds had already decayed by the time the casualties had arrived at the remote hospitals although it was often just a few hours. Maybe Sarge or Medic Jim has heard something along these lines?

I see nothing wrong with the 6.5 as in .260 Remington as a combat round but I'm sure some damn computer thinks the .280/6.8 is slightly better. The Swiss had the 6.5 figured out a long long time ago. the 6.5X55 is a good metal penetrator with FMJ and a good hunting cartridge for man size game. It's light and sleek. But no, we gotta fool with some new unproven design as though there aren't enough cartridges in the world already. Reeks of special interests here. We shall see I guess. What will we have 5 years from now 6.8 X 40 grain bullets? In a 300 RUM case. GEES The .223 is a good coyote gun if you're keeping hides.

Brogers
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 14:42:32 (ZULU)

Piggie hunting Pete,

I can agree with most all of what you said, and I can respect it as well. The problem I see is that when you try to make one thing do more than one thing well, you start compromising. Using a M-14 for CQB is a compromise. Using a M-16 for 600 yard reliable stops is a compromise. I know that's what you were basically saying, that's cool. The upshot to this is that if you've only got one thing (like the 6.8 for instance) you're trading off the great at this, weak at this for "a compromise in all directions". More recoil than the 223 for CQB, less mass and velocity for 600 yard reliable stops. We already do that to a large extent. Look at the range the M-16A2 stops well to, and then look at the range the M4 stops well to. We trade and trade and trade. Don't get me wrong, I think this is on the right track. If I'm going to trade something off, I'm going to trade towards the "more power" category. My experimentation shows that a FAL or '14 is not that far behind a '16 at all in anything but extremely close distances. As far as taking on targets out at realistic distances though, I'll stay with a full sized round. If I weren't going to stay with a 308 case (308, 7-08, 6-08), I'd move to the '06, 7X57, 6.5X55, etc. A median (not small, not large) sized casing is sure to deliver median performance.

Dennis, the tumbling had nothing to do with the 1:14 versus 1:12 twist. I've fired rounds that wouldn't stabilize for different reasons (bullet too long, slightly -like 0.003" under sized- etc). They come out tumbling, and hits at 25 yards looks odd - they hit sideways, that is if they even hit the target. The reason the 5.56 55 grainers tumble is because of the balance in the bullet. Where you going to put that center of gravity? The speed is the key for making it mash up and disintegrate. In other words, it doesn't matter if you fire that 55 grainer from a 1:7, 1:9, 1:12 or a 1:14. If the muzzle velocity is identical from each, they'll tumble the same ONCE THEY HIT SOMETHING the same way. A different way of thinking about it is that the most stable flight is with the heavy end forward. We put the heavy end aft, and then force it to fly that way.

Bravo
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 15:18:22 (ZULU)

OK...truth and perspective.

First off... you simply do not see many rifle wounds in the mean streets of the USA. Gang bangers do not use long rifles near as much as they do pistola.

I have seen a grand total of one person who survived long enough for me to do anything post impact with a 55gr FMJ round in 5.56 x 45. The poor guy was hit at a range of about 200 yards, through the side of his wood frame / plywood, vinyl sided house. The round appeared to have hit him intact. I pulled out every trick in the book... even a few that were not in the book....patient died on the OR table an hour or so later. He was never in any condition to "return fire".

That said... I think the 5.56 x 45 wth the right ammo IS the correct round for 0-400 yard 'close encounters' with the enemy. I think the reports of the round underperforming in combat are either the stress of battle talking or poor performance due to wrong weapon, wrong ammo match (for example... 62 gr SS109 in an 11.5" CAR barrel in Somalia).

I also think PeteR has hit on something.... a round which will operate in an GPMG, Sniper rifle and possibly even a special purpose mod for the issue assault weapon makes a whole bunch of sense. Imagine a standard issue infantry rifle with a quick change barrel and magazine feature that would allow you to use a CQB / short range round OR a moderately weight, great BC long range round. BRodgers...the .260 remington requires around 36 grains of powder to optimally push a 140 gr bullet (case capacity is around 44_ grs...lots of wasted space).... if you drop the weight of the projectile to say the 123 gr laupa bullet (still a great BC), you should be right around 32-33 gr of powder as optimal (this is a SWAG).... the case for the 6.8 round is right around 31 gr capacity.... maybe these guys are on to something!

OK... so we could keep the old .223 round for now as our general issue round and start research (no hype or secret squirrel RUMINT like the current 6.8) on a family of rounds based on cases approx the capacity of the 6.8, with projectile loadings designed for CQB and long distance....

Ultimately, the goal being to have a standard case, standard recoil system, standard bolt, standard magazine, but two different bullet / caliber loadings to optimize the perfomance of the system for long range or short range. My priority would be the long range solution, as we already have a pretty darn good CB tool called the M4 carbine.

I am a civilian, I never served in the military. I make no claims as an expert on anything. My opinion is worth less than .02 USD on the open market. No doubt the folks getting shot at and dying today should have more say than I do. My intent is to stimulate constructive dialog through civil and open minded discourse.

medicjim
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 16:13:19 (ZULU)

Jim; As you say, The efficiency considering brass amount and extra space probably makes better sense on the new 6.8 vs. the .260. I've shot .270's for years with the huge 30-06 case and lots of air in it unless one uses powder designed to fill the case. There's not a whole lot that will beat the .270 for hunting and although I never saw one cleaning up at a match anywhere it served me quite well so the bullet is OK to say the least. I'm not opposed to it as a effective round. Just having a little trouble thinking a complete new round needs to be designed. Does seem that the velocity of this new 6.8 is a bit on the whimpy side. One thing we don't need is another whimp cartridge. Actually if It comes down to it the 7mm-08 was pretty close to getting all you could get from a .308 case. The velocity was at least in the 2800 to 2900 range and bal. Coef. was quite good.

I do favor the velocity ranges between 2600 and 3000 for battle guns simply because they don't copper up as bad.

Brogers
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 17:12:08 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Thanks for your input. That's what I'd hoped, that they were all good. I was going to go with Williams because I've seen it myself, But I think I should just get the Badger with rings, base, lug and handle for ease and have them all installed when I get my A-5 stock.

Others,

Beware universal or interchangable weapon systems for multi-role ops. Precision work, fire support, assault and CQB all have requirements other than ballistics that just aren't practical for mass production.

I have no combat experience, so I've never seen the effects on targets that shoot back. I have used a variety of systems, though. The huge hole in the military weapons systems seems to be for the CQB mission. 5.56 wouldn't make me happy during a quiet ct op, and pistol caliber subs have power issues.

I would opt for designing a large caliber, short cased cartridge that can defeat soft obstacles and body armor, has some down range performance, yet can be suppressed. I'll see if I can think of one.

Some LE guys are looking at a round called th .510 Whisper for short to intermediate precision work, but I think interest is fading.

Since every cartridge varient has at least one advantage over any other, I guess no cartridge could ever be ideal for all missions.

Ignorance about to begin... Why not further diversify for mission requirements? Aren't our current systems designed for the flexibilty required by fighting an equal adversary? When logistics are taxed by a foe of equal strength, versatility is life. But not any more. Special ops missions with the ability to resupply with impunity demand specialization. Wouldn't you want to go into a mission with the best possible armament for the task?

Sorry for the lack of experience.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, i, United States of America - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 17:45:05 (ZULU)

Bill.

The 6.8 round is short....works in a slightly modified M16. I think this is relevant when comparing to 7-08, .260 which are based on the .308 case...you need a compact, lightweight action...the M14 / FAL are too big.

That said, I'm not defending the choice of a ~120 grain 6.8mm bullet... the published BC on this round makes it strictly for inside 400 yards. The only major benefit this round appears to have over the 5.56 is killing power, and I just cannot get over how massive the wounds I've seen from 5.56 are... I cannot imagine that the 5.56 with a good loading doesn't do the job inside 400 yards.

Imagine a round similar to the 6.8... but loaded with a sleeker bullet...you give back a little bit of overkill, but in return...long distance, good wind bucking and barrier penetration (just speculating).

medicjim
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 17:47:12 (ZULU)

Robert Martin,

I'll run some numbers but am pretty sure the 12 twist will workie just fine with 'dem 300 grain boolits..

JR
the muckletoon, scotland, - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 17:48:34 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, I may have to re-evaluate hanging out with you. Petting bears? Sheesh. Of course, if this flu doesn't let go of me, soon, I may not be hanging out with you for quite a while anyway.

About the 5.56 lethality, I was taught that it had to do with the fact that it was unstable and that it tended to precess more in flight due to that fact. When it penetrated a denser medium like human flesh, it would only do what physics demanded, precess more and faster. Hence, the tumbling and deviation from flight path. I've seen guys that took a .357 in the middle of the head, and survived it, because the round went smoothly between the two halves of the brain. Then I've seen little .22's get in the skull and turn the melon into barbacoa 'cause it was light enuff to go zipping around and bouncing off the sides like one of those mixing balls inside a can of spray paint.

I think I may go back to AA2520, 44 gr behind the 175 Srhpbtm. Went out with D. Steve Tuesday (that was a mistake, I was sick then, now I'm really AFU) and that load was pushing them through one hole. Whatever I do, I just can't get the Varget to meter exactly the same charge weight through the Dillon. The 2520 falls precisely the same, load after load. Burns a tad dirtier, and I know I'll have to work out a dope sheet for temp rise, but it seems to be more consistent. And did I mention it's about $3 cheaper a pound?

Anyway, Steve, I don't think I'll be there today or tomorrow. I'm going to go do some more NyQuil shooters and watch Mail call all day.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 18:11:56 (ZULU)

Good artical.

http://www.iht.com/articles/129319.html

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 18:24:09 (ZULU)

Shooting Skunks? - went out to tend to the chickens last night and found them being harassed by a skunk. About faced - back up to the house - Grabed my shotgun and flashlight - when I got back to the coop the skunk crawled under the 6x6 wood/wire cage we use for raising chicks.

Any ideas/experience with skunk shooting - do they spray when shot? Now that I have some prep time before he returns - what size shot would be best?

Practical advice would be nice.

or at least this topic might yeild a funny tale or two.

Thanks fellas.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 18:46:10 (ZULU)

LtChip.

If you do shoot a skunk, handle with care... they seem to be a big carrier of diseases like rabies...

medicjim
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 19:18:25 (ZULU)

Wound Ballistics, now that's a deep subject(no pun intended).

A 55gr M192 fired out of a M16A1 yaws a full 90 deg after penetrating 4.5" of ballistic gelatin then begins to deform and fragments 36% before exiting backwards.

A 62gr M855 out of the A2 yaws 90 deg after only 3.8" of penetration,loses 50% mass and exits backwards.

Both create rather large temporary and permanent wound cavity's.

7.62x39FMJ does not deform unless they strike bone. They tend to travel point-forward 9-10" before they yaw.

Rotational stability in the 5.56?? My understanding is that the A1 lacks the twist rate to stabilize the heavier bullets.

Cut short gota go.

Scott S
Key West , FL, U.S.A. - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 19:21:21 (ZULU)

Lt. Chip; I'd just hand the gun to a chicken and run. By all means don't stand behind em when you shoot. 12 ga. bird shot is good. I've heard they can't squirt if you pick em up by the tail. (I never tried that at home). I had a house cat that was always hitting my front door when he wanted in. He was becoming a nusiance with his poor timing...so one night when I heard it, I went to the door stepped out on the porch and drop kicked to offender about 10 feet out in the yard. Then was when I saw the stripe. A rather surprised skunk in the grass just hauled ass for the alley where he came from. A surprised kicker retreated as fast as possible inside the house. Sometimes the addage is true that a good offense is the best defense. Close quarters tactical situation resolved.

Cartridge choice country; You know the efficiency of the 7.62X39 is pretty good. With a round nose bullet this one will stop a buffalo. A FMJ is quite troublesome though. We have now confused the Russians and some others in to thinking a little piss ant 22 is better. With a Spire point bullet the .223 is about as effective as a 30-06 FMJ or better. With FMJ's it don't do much unless quite close or hits something real vital. I don't know if the 6.8 will be measurably better. Bring back the .30 carbine with Roundnose bullets? Nahh!

Brogers
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 19:25:58 (ZULU)

LtChip,

Oh please go out with the shotgun, no rounds chambered,... hit the darn thing with the buttstock and come back on with a good story for us...please..please ...please...! ;-) remember not to put the brass part of shell in mouth in cold weather.

Just kiddin! Bird shots good. The smell wont be lingering too long. It will smell like when you run one over in a car. Hit one in the head region once and it didnt smell at all. Medicjim is dead on about them being carriers of rabies, so latex gloves a must to be safe.

Ref the ammo issue and on round applications thing....KISS, (keep it simple stupid) should be kept in mind.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 20:10:22 (ZULU)

LTChip,

Many moons ago,back when I was a brilliant teenager, I shot one with a .22lr. He was under a shed on the ranch where I worked in the summertime. That area still smelled like skunk when I returned the following summer. I busted one here with a .357 a couple of years back. My dogs were raising a ruckus out in the woods and when I went to check it out the skunk started towards me. Figured it was most probably rabid or it would have gone the other way when it saw me. One 125gr. JHP put an end to that and there was no stink!

Doc

Doc Holloway
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 20:17:11 (ZULU)

LtChip,

number 30 works well, from 40 yards or so. Okay, it may not work well for YOU but it will do wonders for our morale! My grandpappy had a neat trick in an old single shot 12ga. He would score the plastic of a AA load just in front of the brass. When he fired (UNCHOKED GUN!!!) the shell would come apart at the score line. When it entered, it was like a Glasser on steroids. I mean it made a bag of soup. He used it on coons, possom and skunk very successfully. If it were me, I'd use the wife's 10/22 with Aquilla Super Colibri. About as quiet as a cap gun and darned lethal on rodents to about 40 yds or so.

JR,

I know the 1 in 12 will work, but in the future, if I get successfully out of the test and development stage and figure if thing is worth pursuing, I plan on lengthening the throat a bit and having someone turn some solids for me in the 350gr range with a secant ogive reminiscent of a Berger vld or amax. I'm just wondering if the 1 in 10 will be detrimental to the 300gr SGK I plan on using to get the round tested out (hand turned boolits ain't cheap, mang!), or if I should comprimise and do the 1 in 11 or even 1 in 10.75 thing. I know X-Bullets supposedly have a BC in the 600 range for the .375, but I get so tired of throwing away half a box because the meplat is crunched or off center or the weight is more than 2 or 3 grains off (never once gotten a consistent batch from Barnies, last box of 50 I got from them had only five of fifty that weighed exactly 300gr).

Rob

Robert Martin
Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 20:51:28 (ZULU)

Good posts in regards to a "New" military small arms cartridge. Gotta watch out if someone suggests that a new cartridge should/would be a compromise between two already established cartridges. In all likelyhood, it would have none of the good qualities of either cartridge. I already see a compromise built into the thinking from the get go; has to fit/function thru the M16 platform. Not how I would approach this, but then again, I don't have to pay for this.

Maj. Joe,

I think I've read before where you have one of the 1st Gen. FN SPR's. If I ever get around to doing some load development for mine, I'll send you my data.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 21:24:06 (ZULU)

....."My intent is to stimulate constructive dialog through civil and open minded discourse".....R O T F L M A O!

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 22:02:29 (ZULU)

Mark , nice to see someone laughing a little.

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Thursday, February 12, 2004, at 23:57:32 (ZULU)

Rob Martin,

Incoming email via roster. no attachies.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 04:32:25 (ZULU)

Re: Boudreaux an dat snake!!

Boudreaux been fish'n down by de bayou all day an he done run outa

night crawlers. He be bout reddy to leave when he seen a snake wit a

big frog in his mout. He knowed dat dem big bass fish like frogs, so

he decided to steal dat froggie.

Dat snake, he be a cotton moufed water moccasin so he had to be real

careful or he'd get bit. He snuk up behine de snake and grabbed him

roun de haid. Dat ole snake din't lak dat one bit. He squirmed and

wrapped hisself roun Boudreaux's arm try'n to get hisself free. But

Boudreaux, him, had a real good grip on his haid, yeh.

Well, Boudreaux pried his mouf open and got de frog and puts it in

his baitcan. Now, Boudreaux knows dat he cain't let go dat snake or

his gonna bite him good, but he had a plan. He reach into de back

pocket of his bib overhauls and pulls out a pint a moonshine likker.

He pour some draps into de snakes mouf.

Well, dat snake's eyeballs roll back in his haid and his body go

limp. Wit dat Boudreaux toss dat snake into de bayou. Den he goes

back to fishin'.

A while later Boudreaux dun feel sumpin tappin' on his barefoot toe.

He slowly look down and dare dat water moccasin was....... with two frogs.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 05:13:48 (ZULU)

Gents,

Great discsourse on the proposed 6.8 MM cartidges. Will take a wait and see approach on this one...don't think it's going to do much for those in our areas of interest. I see us sticking with the .308, for now. Need to talk to Undude more about the .300 WSM. Except for barrel life there may be a new winner there. PROVIDED they have the sense to use an action long enough to seat heavies out a bit, which was the original problem with the .284 Winch, etc.

Lt. Chip, Have only shot one skunk, after my two white german shepherd's detected it, the hard way. Snuffed the skunk with a 12 Ga, made trip to the store, and bathed the two critters in tomato juice. Whew! May have created the first "salmon pink" german shepherd's, however!...;-)

Wife was out west visiting folks, at the time. Neighbors were NOT amused.

Just finished cleaning my .338 Lapua. That Rock 5R barrel sure cleans nicely. Absolutely NO trace of copper after 15 test rounds.

Shameless plug for George: If you want a .338 Lapua have him build it! Absolutely phenominal. Purty, in a sinister kind of way, too.

Folks, I may have a period of not posting much, as the doctor is re-evaluating me, changing meds, and not sure what the outcome will be.

Nothing life threatening, mind you, but may effect my quality of life for a while. Time will tell.

If you folks like British pattern stalking rifles I have pictures of a beauty. Classic, but in .308 Winchester. To build this today would cost 10-15K. They have it priced at about $4.3K. If I had the excess I'd poach it myself! Send me an e-mail if you want pictures.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 05:20:22 (ZULU)

OK, Hawgs, I need some help.

I've never been into gunsmithing much and I'm going to demonstrate my lack of knowledge by asking for info on removing the extractor from a Remington bolt. Looks like the ejector is held in by a roll pin but I have no idea about the extractor other than it looks like it just snaps in. Is that correct? And if it is, what's the best way to get that puppy outa there?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

J. Copeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 05:21:17 (ZULU)

"I am an expert in logisticts issues on a scale you DO NOT UNDERSTAND."

"... a MASTER at three separate trades if you will."

"I make no claims as an expert on anything."

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..." --- Ralph Waldo Emerson

CDC'
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 05:28:49 (ZULU)

To the Revrund Medic.....

Overkill? I've never heard of that. What is it?

And you're not filling the case of your 260? I'm not doubting your word, it just seems odd. My 6.5 Swede got a steady diet of ammo that of course I've loaded myself. Without checking my notes, I can't say as to exactly what the charge weight was, but I definately do remember it was a very mildly compressed load under the 140 CoreLokt Remmie bullet. Of course, my Swede has no throat now either, or maybe more precisely, no demarkation of throat, it's way long.

Charles, my load for AA2520 was very close to what you're talking about. It was very good for very long (years). The only complaint I have about it is that it'll put your rounds in different areas for different temps, and the range is pretty large. That having been said, the 175's that I pushed today were loaded with AA2520. What powder do I recommend? It's a reverse question of "what do you want that round to do?"

And of course our 855 ammo. I hope at this point everyone knows that we had a superior design to what is currently produced. We couldn't agree (as nations) on the design though, and the most "humane" design won, ours lost. I'll leave the rest to your discretion. But the bullet design is as much a factor, or more, than anything else. The Germans have a 7.62 NATO bullet that has a wound profile significantly better than the offering from Lake City. If I get the opportunity to choose explosive fragmentation at higher velocities or controlled expansion at lower velocities, I'll take the former every time.

Sir Wes and his wait and see attitude. Right on. My mother never raised any guinea pigs either. The best part of this exercise might be that they figure out the M16AXXX plan isn't in the cards, and a new design needs to be implemented. In that case, something with a rotating bolt (or if that isn't possible a roller locker. Barring that, the sliding bolt / carrier works fine enough) and no such thing as a barrel extension would be fitting. But let's not think too hard on the subject. IIRC, the case was made for the FAL based on the number of countries that formally adopted it as their battle rifle. At this point, since I don't know, let me ask this august group: How many countries have adopted some form or variation of the Kalashnikov?

If that doesn't stir the pot, nothing will!

Bravo
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 06:09:10 (ZULU)

skunks??? had 2 run ins withem in the yard... shot one through sholders.. didnt spray. shot one through ribs.. didnt spray...

caught one in box trap...(***NOT WHAT TRAP WAS INTENDED FOR***)

shot it in head.... sprayed...all three shot w/22rimfire

B Murray
WV, USA - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 07:38:21 (ZULU)

DUDES!!!

Hey, anyone know of any rooms under 100.00 open in Vegas this weekend? I can share a room with a guy but its gonna get crowded...

Out

Gooch
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 07:52:39 (ZULU)

Does any one know anything about the Newcon Laser Range Finders? I was all set to get one of the Leicas until I came across this Newcon on another site.

I understand that the display is in black and cannot be seen at night but other than that does any one know any thing else about this.

For the price I can get over using it at night. Any feedback appreciated.

Go to this link or click my name.

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/410144

Thanks

Keith

Keith
North Central , WV, - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 12:44:43 (ZULU)

Gooch, try sniffin around El Cortez, just don't inhale too deep!

Sir Wes, I hope for the best for you!

JR, I'm trying to trace the lineage on an old Fox double, beautiffully engraved in .310 cadet. Do you know anyone that might have access to thier info? Someone is trying to tell me it was built for Churchhill when he was a boy and I'm having trouble swallowing that. It was definitely made for someone, not an off the shelfer.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 12:47:32 (ZULU)

Kieth, Incoming thru roster, N/A

Doug, back at ya.

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 12:54:20 (ZULU)

5.56NATO, 6.8Rem, 7X43, etc.

I've always wondered what would have happened if the 250-3000 Savage had been adopted by the US around WW1.

The 2503K feeds like a dream in mauseractions and MG's designed for Xx57. Today it fits 700SA. You could probably fire it at full auto in M14, FAL and G3 with "control". I'm sure barrellife would be exellent with 110-120gr bullets.

I've competed with the 6,5x250 in XP100 at IHMSA-matches. It shoots like a dream with short 15" barrels.

Tor

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 13:20:47 (ZULU)

J.C.; Yes ,it just snaps in. You can remove the ejector by pushing out the pin taking care not to loose it. Or you can depress the pin and using a small screwdriver or something similar push the ejector to the side until the end shows up in the ejector pin slot. Then carefully pry one side out. Again taking care not to bend it too much if you're considering putting it back. They cost about $8 to $13.00 from Brownells and I don't recommend putting it back. Before you put the new one in, get a high power glass magnifier and using a dremmel tool try to grind off the picture of Mickey Mouse from the underside. IT detracts from the natural beauty of an otherwise fairly good rifle.

Brogers
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 14:35:11 (ZULU)

Bravo; I had a AK-47 once but after I developed a terrible craving for good imported cigars, wanted my wife to wear combat boots all the time and had a reoccuring dream that I was invading a small South American country in a small boat I became troubled. One night I drank myself into a stupor on Vodka and fired a whole clip of 7.62 into a Regan campaign poster some democrat had pasted on my own dumpster I decided I should sell it.

Brogers
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 14:51:22 (ZULU)

CDC- I bet, in the course of your life, you have said at least once "context is relevent"...if so, your last post is rather hypocritical, eh? No doubt you will edit it to say something completely different, as is your standard practice when confronted.

"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit."

-- W. Somerset Maugham

Bravo - Overkill, in my opinion, is where you over-prioritize one aspect of a compromise....

In my industry, we have a saying.... you can have it fast and cheap, or you can have it fast and good....or, you may have it cheap and good.... you may not have it cheap, fast and good under any circumstances.... Overkill is akin to "just do it...NOW!".

TorF - Do you have any more info on the 250-3000 Savage? Very interesting. Was a study done on reliability of various cartridges in GPMGs? Is it published?

medicjim
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 15:18:41 (ZULU)

Keith.. “Does any one know anything about the Newcon Laser Range Finders?” My son in law has one that I’m sure he would make you a deal on. They are about one year old. He tried to use them last summer on prairie dogs, but wasn’t happy with them. If you are interested hit me off line and I’ll get the information for you.

HDR
OK, - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 16:19:31 (ZULU)

Robert,

Jon Sundra had me rifle a 10 twist 375 Ultra mag when I was at HS, can't remember the luck he had with the 300 grain bullets....Should be all right yet, if you want me to run the numbers let me know...And yes I do know someone, a fella named Arthur Smith(Arms restoration services) down south in Boxsted, who would likely have the info on the double gun, when I find the telephone#/address will get it to ya..or i'll just ask him meself..

JR
the muckletoon, scotland, - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 17:28:19 (ZULU)

Murphy: You just posted a new law...

Rob: Any thoughts? Yeah, yer nutz! But in the interest of helping you back to reality---how about a howitzer brake (cheap) out of my DRMO? Heheh...oh, what in god's name are you hunting? Battleships? Bawhawhaw. Hey, I'm a 300 winney kinda guy on the top end, so whudda I know?

LT Chip: I'd forego the shooting and use a WMD on Mr. Skunk. Mix up a lethal dose of pharmecuticals in a can of tuna and place on or near his ingress or egress route. This is a no-go if the wife has a cat....then again...I digess, but Medicjim was right: them are some prime carriers of another sort of WMD: Disease. WY6 either way, chem-war or shooting. Heheh.

Don K: That would be excellent; I plan on taking the plunge into reloading on my return (setting up for that long overdue retirement). And yep: I love that old SPR. Any pointers would get me started in the right direction!

Was dat discourse a function of converation? Or was it dysfunctional convolusion? Aw heck, Knock off dem fifty-cent words!

Sir Wes: What's so perty bout sinister? (I couldn't leave that one alone!)

Lasering prairie dogs? What fun could that be? Hmmmm...oh, I know! Ya stalk in on the town real close like, then pop up and surprise em and break open a can of CQB on their little asses with a carbine. Hmmm.

How much ya askin?

LMAO! Just funnin'--no offense to you our sonny-in-law meant. But the thought of an active sighting device for rodents struck me as 1) alien, and 2) funny as hell for some dang reason! Bawhaw...baaaaawhawhaw.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 17:38:21 (ZULU)

Lt Chip, Skunk Country- Striped skunks can not spray with thier back feet off the ground. They must contract certain muscles to spay and they need thier feet on the ground to do so. HOWEVER, if it is a spotted skunk it can and will spray with its back feet in the air. How do I know this you ask? Please add a new item to the comment I made in my post refering to dumbass stunts. I forgot about this one, please make a mental note on snakes too. Never put a Boa in the trunk of your car. You know a 6 foot one that will be easy to find and get out later.

MK4, I enjoyed dat. But thunk to mysef it hassa be Mr Insian written dis. That feller dun train himsef a snake.

You guys see that dumns#$? at Ft Lewis tring to aid Al Queda and doing it blatantly? He needs outta the gene pool cause he is to dumb.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 18:08:01 (ZULU)

CDC,

Perhaps you know of Sir Boyle Roche, member of the Dublin Parliament before it was abolished, and his irish bulls:

"I stood prostrate at the feet of my Soverign"

"The worst of all misfortunes is usually follewed by a greater"

"Half the lies our opponents tell about us are untrue"

"The best way to avoid danger is to meet it plump."

JR
How is it that I never open my mouth but a fool says something?, - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 18:11:29 (ZULU)

Keith, oh yeah stay with the Lieca's.

Brogers
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 18:56:26 (ZULU)

Major Joe.. No offense taken…You need to try a prairie dog shoot some time. Most fun you can have with your cloths on. We shoot in South Dakota, where the wind is always blowing. Last day we shot the wind was gusting to 37 mph. Spotting for a friend of mine that killed a prairie dog at a lasered 536 yards, wind at 4 o’clock 20 gusting to 37 mph with my .223. First time he had shot a .223. He then decided he needed a .223 with a mil-dot scope.

You can shoot out to over 1000 yards if you have the rifle to reach them. Most of our shooting is done between 300 and 700 yards. With a .223 it gives good lessons on reading the wind. Longest kill so far just under 650 yards with a Remington 700 chambered in .243 Winchester with a 87 gr. Hornady V Max.

With a target about 9” tall, partly hidden by the mound, a range finder is the easiest way to range them. If you can see all the dog mil-dots work pretty well. When the range exceeds 350 yards my old eyes need all the help they can get when it comes to estimating range.

HDR
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 19:47:00 (ZULU)

You guys and this .308 diameter fetish!!

Get away from the .308 diameter and you can have high velocity, high BC and low recoil, something impossible with .308 diameter. The only disadvantage is increased barrel wear with smaller bores, but IME, that's a non issue, since even with sniper rifles, the guns are at 3rd echelon often enough for things OTHER THAN barrel wear and might as well have a barrel replaced at the same time. Hey gunplumbers, how long does it take to screw on a barrel? One day, two at most?

I still believe you need two calibers no matter how you cut it(three if you count the .50cal). Might as well standardize on one bore size so you can reduce the tooling needed for rifling, bullet manufacture, and a few others. So if you're gonna do 6.8x43 for your assault rifle, do a 6.8x55 or something similar for your GPMG's and sniper rifles. A 165gn 'ish VLD(about .6 BC or so) at about 2800fps would be the shiznit for both snipers and for GPMG's. The coaxial guns on tanks, Bradleys and other AFV's have full firecontrol systems with LRF's and environmental sensors. Imagine what you could do with a precise range, temp, crosswind and barometric pressure run through a computer and a bullet that's supersonic out to about 1700m or so fired from a rock solid mount? You might even start teaching real long range machinegunnery to the grunts again. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 20:03:58 (ZULU)

Ken; type in Artillery.bigheavy.pissantbores.com They should be able to fix you up.:)

Brogers
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 20:47:02 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: Eloquent analysis of our traitor! That's the consensus over here.

Pete: Roster generated email inbound. This link backs up what I was getting at:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jeffjacoby/jj20040213.shtml

Youz can find anything on the net!

Bruce: Business is booming. With so many inbounds, I barely have to crawl out from under my rock to find customers!

Joe D: Did I mention 2 boxes? Good chow choices...the easy prep mac and cheese was almost fought over! Go figure? Everyone may be a rifleman in the Corps; in the army: everyone's a dang cook! Heheh. Too many MREs I guess.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 20:54:59 (ZULU)

HDR: Oh damn! It was "Range Finder!" What the heck was I reading? For reasons unknown to me now--I thought it read "laser aiming device" in your earlier post! Yes, I do have glasses. They've been in my assault pack for months....maybe I should try carrying them on the bridge of my nose for awhile? Hell, I'm thinking maybe a seeing eye dog is needed after re-reading your post. I wasn't even close...

Add another dumbass story for me...

But, on the lighter side, door-kickin' a dog-town IS an amusing mental image for me...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 21:06:04 (ZULU)

From AP wire,...

General Abizaid's reply to a reporters question about the number of US soldiers killed in action to date... He didnt know that the american people were counting...and that he only knew for sure that the media was. Also stated..."The problem that I think we want to understand, as professional soldiers, is that war is a very random and dangerous experience and people get hurt and people get killed and it's part of what happens to us professionally."

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 21:14:09 (ZULU)

Out at the range yesterday and one of the folks there had a new Remington 700 with a factory carbon barrel (.223). I didn't know Remington was selling rifles with carbon barrels. Barrel diameter looked to be about 1.25 inches or more.

Anyway, the guy claimed that the rifle shoots one hole groups at 100 yards (didn't see if it was true). The rifle was very light. He said he paid $1500 for it.

Any experience here with this? Comments?

I think I'm going to put a carbon barrel on my 10T soon.

Steve in Tampa
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 21:20:55 (ZULU)

"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit."

-- W. Somerset Maugham

If one quotes another's quote,

Does he credit the original,

Or the second who wrote?

And if the quote he quotes is full of wit,

Is he witty too, or full of shit?

....Been reading Roosevelt's writings on Wilderness Hunters and such.....Great reading for anyone interested in such things....The old boy had a way with words.....Didn't realize old Teddy was such a poet......Even has a story or two about skunks....

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 21:34:20 (ZULU)

Mark Smith.

Have I been so mean to CDC when he provokes me that you feel the need to protect him?

Nice poem BTW ..

medicjim
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 21:47:49 (ZULU)

Indeed not.....You have been so funny I feel the need to laugh.....

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Friday, February 13, 2004, at 21:56:00 (ZULU)

Steve in Tampa,

Shot a factory Remmy 700 .223 with a carbon wrapped barrel about a year ago. Didn't shoot any better than my late PSS DM .308 (3 shots = .42" @ 100 best case).

IIRC George is doing some work with carbon wrapped barrels & titanium actions. There's a thread over on Sniper's Hide somewhere about it.

Don Smith
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 22:45:28 (ZULU)

Does any body have any info on the 338 Rum vs the 338 Laupua mag. It looks like on paper the Rum wins the race. But that is on paper?? Any thoughts?

Keith Lucas
Friday, February 13, 2004, at 23:10:05 (ZULU)

Steve in Tampa,

Though carbon barrels offer many advantages in theory, you may consider looking at some of the top target barrel makers instead. Carbon-wrapped barrels are lighter, stiffer, and cool more efficiently than conventional and fluted steel barrels, but unless you start with a top barrel, they'll be no mare accurate.

They have some issues with dirt getting in between the barrel bushings and the ends of the carbon wrap. That can cause an awkward stress on the barrel and make accuracy waver. If you use it only at the range, and keep it clean, it could be just what you're looking for.

As for my personal experience, my best friend has a titanium action from Prairie Gun Works of Canada with a Christensen Arms barrel. The rig was put together by Lone Wolf Stocks with a Summit XL and is a 4 1/2 lbs. mountain rifle in .7mm08. It was like 5k, though. I love it.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 00:57:34 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

I'm not crazy, I just like keeping my shoulder a nice shade of purple, my wife says it matches my eyes;) Little pain lets you know your alive. I'm just trying something a bit different for a lr cartridge. Why re-invent the wheel with another .338? Besides, I can't afford a CheyTac and can't hunt with a fifty!

Kevin,

Lapua as chambered by Sako with the 27.25" 1in12 barrel makes the RUM look silly with 250gr bullets. I just did a 338RUM ackley imp with a 26" barrel that is close to the Lapua, but the 1 in 10 twist stabilizes the 300gr SMKs much better. I hear that GA Prec. Lapua is the cat's meow, and barretta is supposed to be importing 1 in 10's that they made specifically for the Sako TRG's. If you want to step up a bit, the .338/.416 Rigby Improved is still supersonic at a bit past 1800m with 300gr SMKs!

Rob

Robert Martin
Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 01:19:49 (ZULU)

Medic Jim,

If you're at the upcoming match in WV, the first ones on me. CDC, I'll pay your airfare to have the pleasure of meeting you there.

Yote bait,

I swear, before either one of us dies, I'm gonna have to meet ya. Regan stickers....HA!

Titanium... I just bought Marty's Vapor 1 or whatever... 20" 5R barreled TI receiver and bolt. The barrel is fluted deep enough for tomatoes. Very, very light. Just mounted a scope today...should kick like a Missouri mule. Like I'd know....

John

edit to add, Maj. Joe, if you're home and caught up with family and all, could you make it to the WV match?

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 02:23:11 (ZULU)

JR:

Person A: "This is the stupidest conversation I've ever been in."

Person B: "You noticed that too?"

Skunks: Many years ago I had use of a cabin in Colorado. One evening about 3:00, a young lady I was entertaining nudged me awake with the terrified whisper, "What is that noise?" I listened to a couple of bumps from under the floor and said, "Night of the living dead. Those are zombies. This whole area is thick with them." I went back to sleep. The next morning she was angry. When I told her that it was only a couple of skunks she got madder still. She said that she wasn't coming back until the skunks were gone.

Given that very real incentive, I baited them up with chicken giblets wrapped in rabbit wire nailed to my splitting stump. A couple of cans wired together worked as an alarm. I sighted in my 541-s for exactly that spot. Two adults and one baby went down in three shots of 22 LR. When I severed the spine just below the base of the skull they didn't spray. I dug holes for them in advance and hauled them there with a shovel. The rest of the babies never gave me any trouble. I think the owls got them.

It took three days and all was forgiven.

That's only three data points. You take your own chances.

CDC'
Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 02:43:19 (ZULU)

Alright all youse gas gunners!!

I'm thinking of getting an M1A/M14 type of rifle. Why? Because I don't have one. They're a cool design and a great part of our history. Anyway, I'm having trouble deciding. I've checked out the M14forums, and the regulars all seem to recommend the Springfield MA9102 (the regular M1A). They have a USGI chrome lined barrel and are nothing fancy. Some guys over there who build 'em said to aim for this order, most desireable first.....

1) built USGI

2) Springfield MA9102 (same as above)

3) MA9103 Same as 9102 except "collectable" (Springfield's word's not mine) with a USGI Birch stock in addition to the USGI chrome lined barrel.

4) MA9222 "Loaded" series with carbon barrel

5) MA9822 "Loaded" series with Stainless barrel.

Anyway, I've found MA9103's for about $1070, MA9102's about $1100-$1200, MA9222's around $1200-1300 etc. Well I found a ALL USGI parts (H&R) built on a LRB barreled receiver, unfired for $1400. Do you guys have any recommendations? I'm new to M1A/M14 types. I wouldn't be using it for high power or anything, just range fun etc.

Thoughts? Advice?

Rich

Rich S,
MD, - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 03:08:08 (ZULU)

Rich,

Gasgunnutz! At those prices, take two...you don't want to know what I threw at my M21 clone. Before you start down this descent into obsession--have you considered a CMP M1? 1st Class Battle rifle for half the money. The M1A is cool, no doubt. But if it wasn't on the menu at the CAT II course way back when---no way I'd own one now. It is a LABOR of love. Emphasis on the labor. Don't get me wrong---these things are a blast; but you ought to know up front that they are a chore to bring 'em under 2" and keep them there.

Bravo will crucify me now for blasphemizin' in his church of the holy oprod; forgive me father for I have sinned....heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 13:11:09 (ZULU)

medicjim...ahhh, the 250-3000 Savage. One of the all time great cartridges IMHO. Between my son and I, we have five of 'em..Don't know about using it in a MG, but as a sporting round it is the cats ass for game up to mule deer in size with proper bullets. Accurate, easy on the shoulder and easy to load for.

Passed on the SHOT show and took Brock pig hunting; got back Wed. PM.. our party was four for four; one pig taken from a stand, three taken on the ground still hunting and stalking. Like hunting big rabbits with rifles; what a gas!! They hold tight and get up close, providing a adrenilin{sp?} rush that's off the chart..Observations; 300gr. Partitions do not expand at 2000fps out of a 45-70; 320gr. LBTs in 44Mag penetrate like crazy; 300gr. XTPs are to lightly constructed to reliably penetrate completely at 444 Marlin velocities.

Bruce Robinson.. thanks for the chuck photo; look for an envelope in the mail.

outa here

Markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 13:14:27 (ZULU)

Joe,

Ahhhhh yes. I have seen the way. I have two of the "Father" from CMP, a Service Grade SA and a SG HRA. I just figured now I need a "Son". Either that or an M1 Carbine. I was leaning towards the M1A also because of ease of ammo availability and the fact that it's pretty much the same (or very similar) manual of arms. I figured I've sold a couple rifles and a bunch of pipes and tobacco so now I have about $1400 to dick around with. A guy on the M14forums who builds M14's says to jump on the built HRA. I know it will never be a super duper precision stick (not without spending a LOT of money) but that's why I have the SCLE and my Holliger/RRA. I just thought it would be one hell of a rifle. Then again I could take the money and order another CMP riffle and send it out for a "overhaul".

Rich

Rich S.
MD, - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 13:42:10 (ZULU)

Folks,

The SCPX raffle has sold it's complement of tix, and I'll say again, If I win, I'll put the rifle into the safari raffle as a second prize. As for the safari raffle, tickets are going at a blistering snail's pace! This is not the only forum that I have presented in, and some of the fine folks here have helped me pass the word to other venues as well. I have a friend at the shot show with some flyers, but I just wanted to ask here as well, if you have access to a gun shop, firing range or do the gun show circuit, etc. and would like to lend a small hand, I'd like to send out some flyers for you to display. If you can help, hit me with an email thru the roster or my website. I'd love to send someone on a safari with a brand new rifle, but more importantly, I'd like to send Bruce a fat check for the goodies!

Tell your friends!

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 13:50:56 (ZULU)

John: WV match not this year. My various ploys are as follows:

1) Badlands basic course with son...sold to wife for that all-important "father-son quality time" She actually bought that BS; we'ze gonna have fuuuuun. Who cares about quality when yer havin' fun, eh? (I bet that's how fat chicks get lucky...)

2) Colorado Elk with wife. For some reason, gettin' cozy in a heated tent in the rockies appealed to her. Hey, it's been a long, long year! And what is wrong with a fifth kid?

3) Pheasant hunts cause she digs my apple-wood smoker recipe...these are local walk-abouts with rudy the weimer.

4) Chucks in 'sota. Family fun for all ages.

As you can see, I ain't got any more excuses available this year. So no WV matches in my immediate future. All of the above is predicated on that initial 30 day eastern US sweep, down the big river to FT Polk, over to Tampa, up through DELMARVA and back to Wisconsin. Yeah the mouse is on the schedule. If I do this; all the above is possible!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 14:00:14 (ZULU)

Got a question for you guys. I am purchasing a AR style heavy barrel rifle for my son to surprise him with when he gets home from Iraq in a couple of weeks. He wants to do some varmint hunting with me and likes the mouse guns. Looking at the RRA 24" A4 Wilson barrel gun. my question is that I can either get it in a 1:8 or 1:12 twist. I tend to load the 40 and 50 grain balistic tips for my bolt gun so I know that the 1:12 would be better for these. If I went with the 1:8 so the heavier stuff will spin fast enough, how will the lighter stuff shoot ? I am thinking 1:8 may be too fast and result in the bullet coming apart and or poor group size. I am hoping to get 1/2 - 3/4 moa. Any experience out there with fast twist and short bullets ?.....thanks

Rick

Kimbershooter
Disputanta, Va., USA - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 15:10:12 (ZULU)

Rick,

I have a 1in8 twist in my 22-250ackley. It loves the vld type stuff, as that is what it was built for, but the 40gr Combined tech. BST's group 1/4" at 100 loaded to 4300+fps. Use a good bullet, though. Some cheaper bullets come apart quickly at those speeds. I'd say go for the 1in8, then he can get out to 600 or so with the 80grainers if he needs to.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 15:25:49 (ZULU)

Rich S.

If you need to burn that kind of bread on a M1, the CMP will auction some Navy .308 Garands next month. I imagine they will go high but I'll look at them anyway, never know what might happen.

If you can get a chance at a USGI M1 Carbine in good condition, consider it. You can find them under $600. They are a ton of fun. I got a Winchester from the CMP last year and love it. Hope I never have to sell it.

LATER

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 16:18:57 (ZULU)

Now the Winchester USGI M1's are definitely what I'd call collectable. Especially if the barrel matches. The CMP sticks are the way to go if you just want a decent range queen for funsies. I put an adjustable gas system and a decent barrel on mine and it does fine for an open sighter to a couple of hundred yards. For some reason, mine ejects to the left a bit, so it's great when someone with a mouse gun is on my left and doesn't care where his brass flies. I have gotten used to 223 empties hitting me in the back, but it's hard for them to ignore 30-06 raining down in their faces!

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 16:45:44 (ZULU)

Been busy so no posts from me for a while, had a few chances to browse but that's about all.

Joe M.

Saw a bit about some family illness(es) and also that these are apparently under resolution. You and yours of course have my best wishes for health and safety.

Also I spoke with a secret admirer of your's, she said there are apparently two (2) more packages on the way, edible stuff I guess. Did those barreries arrive??? I'll bet they're a hot item if they have.

Bruce Robinson

I keep running into folks that still don't know anything about MilDots so there's apparently a market left for your MilDot master. Guy tried to buy my last remaining MM from me just two (2) days ago, guess he figured I had the only one on the planet.

Pete Lincoln, JR

Talked to the Texas hog-man... he said there are some down there than need killing and we may be able to make a hookup. Tomorrow I'll try to find the local farmers and get my new annual crop damage lists/applications started. Were running out of deer in some areas, down to 55 or so per square mile lst I heard.

KimberShooter

Haven't heard from my son a great deal lately but last I heard he's okay. Hope your's is doing fine and safe. Apparently it got a little "excited" at BIAP for a while a week or so back.

All

Take care, be safe.

v/r

Dave "Doc" King
U. S. A. - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 17:54:06 (ZULU)

Skunk update- nothing exciting to report. Thanks for the advice regarding dispatching that varmint - between the biohazard of rabies, the liklihood of a parting gift of scorched earth, and the slightly less but all too real possibility of me getting directly skunked, I decided the prudent thing to do was to have mercy on it (for now). Rigged the coup door so that there aint no gap tween it and the groud - secured with rocks and boards. Locked the "girls" up that way at night for the last two nights. Hopefully the stinker will loose interest in the coup. If not then - back to plan "A" and a continuation of this tale.

I know which way y'all are routing. :)

Range day today spoiled. Went in to the garage to find the water heater spilled its guts - off to Lowes to get me a new one. Lots of fun...

Out.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 18:43:04 (ZULU)

Dave,

Hope your son is doing ok. Mine will be home in 16 more days. Spoke to him this am. He is so excited about getting out of BIAP. All is ok there. A big rocket attack the other night. A "contract" guy lost his life. A military vehicle was hijacked and they thought it made it on base full of explosives the other day but luckily it did not. Things were rather watrm there for a while....take care and our prayers are with you and your son.

Rick

Kimbershooter
Disputanta, Va., USA - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 19:58:39 (ZULU)

Acehigh,

Did you get your package yet? Should have been there by now, or maybe Monday. UPS can be slow.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Saturday, February 14, 2004, at 23:27:11 (ZULU)

"...hypocritical...", "...(lacking) wit...", "...ignorant..."

Said by someone with a bit more heft, that would be insulting.

The context was fine.

Acehigh: If you're so far ahead of your bills that you'd pay my airfare, you may have a deal.

CDC'
Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 03:06:41 (ZULU)

Acehigh.

I will be at ASC3.

medicjim
Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 03:19:42 (ZULU)

I have a question that I think is best suited to be answered by the readers and posters here; I am building a new rifle and I am starting to look at GLASS for it.

I am interested in the Leupold Mark 4 6x, but I have some questions about it, and being that it is no longer in production, the answer are not easily found.

#1 Why did they stop making it, was there a problem?

#2 Does it have Side Paralax Adjustment?

#3 Is it 30mm Tube like the other Mark 4's?

#4 How does the Leupold M8 Fixed Power 6x Compare?

#5 What is the average asking on the Mark 4 6x?

#6 (last for now) any suggestions of others scope of the fixed power type that I should look at?

Thanx in Advance

Zero

Zero Hunter
Miami (New Havana), FL, - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 04:07:57 (ZULU)

Ace; one of these days when ole Wiley gets over his bout with the mange mites and comes back with a few more numbers you just gotta come out and watch the sun go down over the foot hills. I hope by then I can figure out why I'm runnin out of breath in about a half a hill of sagebrush and get where I can make it to the top soap weed again. I knew the deal was that you get old and you get sick and you die, but damned if I knew you slowed down so much on the way.

Yo,, anyhow ...Been at the gun show today. Somebody traded me a L1a1. Hope it's alright but it's just a Imbel kit gun. Kinda hope nobody buys it very soon. Been fun so far this weekend. Good friends, good guns and lots of friendly people. Got a Benelli 3.5 inch mag. scattergun also, got a bunch of green camo finish all over it. I looked for some glass balls, a string of lights and a star to put on top. I think if I water it good it will still be alive come next Christmas.

My buddy bought a nice lil Model 7 in .308. I told him we could use it to kick a field goal next football season. ... but it's really got nice wood. Tomorrows another fun day.

Zero; that scope is just a little underpowered. They ain't high to buy but I really don't know if I've seen one priced in a frogs age. The 6X regular flavor Leupy is nice and bright. iSTLUVEM!

Joe; that Rocky Mountain trip sounds like a nice place to get acquainted again. There ain't much better when you get the fire goin and pines whisper up the slope and mingle their smell with the smoke uhmmmmmmmmmm. Where you think all these Indians come from?

I talk too much!@

Brogers
Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 05:21:53 (ZULU)

Gents,

Looks like most are off having fun for the weekend. Work for me...

Zero, I have MK IV M3 6X w/mil dot reticle. To answer your questions:

1. To the best of my knowledge there were no problems with the 6X. Leupold is only about an hour drive from were I work. So can go and skulk around a bit. Marketing probably showed them "more powerful" scopes would sell better AND it's a magnification some of the services were already using.

2. Yes, it has the side adjustable paralax adjustment.

3. It is a 30mm tube. Steel like all the other MK IV's.

4. No comparison. The MK IV is MUCH brighter. Although, for the dollars the M8 6X with 42mm objective is not bad at all.

5. Last MK IV 6X I saw for sale, used, was $850.00. They may even be a bit more because of their "rarity".

As for other scopes? Do you have your heart set on a fixed power? I have several of the Vari-X III LR M1's and they are wonderful. To say the least. Mil-dot reticle, 30mm tube, side paralax adjustment, and all the goodies. About $800.00, if you watch for deals.

Hope this helps. There was one for sale awhile back. If your heart is set on on the 6X MK IV M3 one should turn up.

Honey do list precluded my shooting this past week. This week for sure. Got to check the .338 Lapua for accuracy at 600 and velocity.

My best to all.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 05:57:06 (ZULU)

Major Mahon,

Email inbound your location via DR.

J. Copeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 06:05:41 (ZULU)

Robert Martin,

Two emails headed your way. If my brain had been workin' properly there woulda been only one.

J. Copeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 06:12:01 (ZULU)

Gents,

Spring is just around the corner. More of us will get behind our riffles and find new ways to "get the accuracy tweeked." Then, like magic, our pub comes to life with the bread and butter of this site.

I enjoy this place immensely, first: I always learn something, and for 2/3 of the year--it is usually shooting; and second, the branches and sequels and side bars are fascinating if not informational always. Whats not to like.

For those who wonder if this is a shooting board or not; stick around. It is, but most of us aren't shooting as much and it is reflected in the political discussions, etc.

On Loopies: I second the motion: Look at the M1/ M3 variables or the 6x42mm (tactical). Why pay for a MkIV in 6x and have that limitation? Unless of course there is money just dying to leave your wallet for a trip through the economy....then, why not have the very best 6x? For my situation, I would spend the difference on a jewel trigger and go with the M8 (and I have done exactly this once before)....but my budget forces these compromises. Heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 08:27:21 (ZULU)

Rob O.

Got 'em yesterday. Sorry I forgot to email ya a note. Thank you.

CDC,

Thanks for your concern about my finances, but some things, as they say, are priceless; and after attending a handful of these matches I've found that meeting the other shooters has been the most enjoyable part for me. The secondary consideration of learning is just icing on the cake. Send me an address and dollar amount. Even if you don't make it I'd assume, a.) your wife would buy something new for the new house; b.) you'd return it unused. Either of which would be fine by me.

Medic Jim,

I'm sure I saw you there last year but we never got a chance to visit. I'll fix that this year.

Yote,

I had a uncle in Denver for years whe I was growin up. Your comment about pine and smoke brought back many fond memories. He'd rather be in the woods than in a bank countin money. We'd play matchstick poker and drink Coors till the stars burnt out.

Doc K.

Hope to see ya again at ASC3 as well.

John

edit: LtChip,

If he can smell'em, he's not gonna leave.

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 12:14:44 (ZULU)

'yote bate,

<<My buddy bought a nice lil Model 7 in .308. I told him we could use it to kick a field goal next football season. ... but it's really got nice wood.>>

If it were me I'd be looking at a new project with the short throw remmy...nice lil 243, 20-22" fluted light varmint weight barrel, HS PSV 47, ooh lah laaah...

Skunks,

Hate the little bastads..If there was an animal I hate, it would be a skunk...Normally they're harmless, stinky shy critters that mainly keep to themselves, and do most of their roaming when you are good and asleep...But when we'd have wet years back home, the rabies seemed to run a little more rampant than usual, and it seemed to affect the skunk population more than anything, wander into the yard in pure daylight tryin to pick a fight your dog or what or whoever is in their path..damn things are almost bulletproof when they get into a state...I have found the best way to dispatch rabid skunks is to shoot them in the head many many times with something big, shoot until they quit moving, then reload and shoot some more..I always thought it was unfair not to let us country folk use RPG's for pest control..

Really glad we don't have them here Jon...

later

JR
the muckletoon, scotland, - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 13:39:46 (ZULU)

Rich S. -

Get yourself a rack grade M1A and run a bunch of ammo through it with the irons. If you discover that you really like the whore, let us know. There are several of us that can direct you to a certain gentleman in Indiana who will instruct you on the fine points of spending lots of $$$$$$ on that gas gun! :-)

Day/Night Scopes -

Does anybody have info or links to manufacturers of these combo scopes? No, I'm not talking about a Aimpoint M2 with a NV monocular behind it. I mean a "normal" looking tactical-type scope with D/N capabilities.

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 13:44:01 (ZULU)

Zero,

Been using the M8 6x on a 6ppc for hunter/bench comp for a while. It is really a superb scope for this application. Zeiss makes a 6x in roughly the same price range that is a bit flatter around the edges, but you gotta look very close to notice it.

Moe,

ATN makes a 4-12 day scope with a gen2 NV eyepiece. No change in poi switching from std eyepiece to nv, but there is a slight poi change moving thru the magnification. Either way it has an illuminated reticle, somehow the ir doesn't interfere with the nv at all. That suprised me. You need VVVVEEEERRRRYYYY high rings though, it has an 80mm objective. It,s not all that bad of a unit, just don't abuse it, it ain't milspec for sure. Also, don't put it on a hard hitter, there isn't much eye relief on the nv eyepiece. It has an ir illuminator that is pretty quiet for a 450watter as well (you gotta be CLOSE to hear the whine). I think Kalinka may have one as well, but it'll be cheaply made Ruskie junk.

Mr. Copeland, nothing yet.

Rob

Robert Martin
Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 14:33:55 (ZULU)

Moe, Have you checked out the Aquilia 4x gen 2 or 2I ? It is mil-spec and set up for flat top carbine in 5.56. Also the Raptor 4x or 6x.

If you haven't let me know . Don't want to waste too much bandwidth on specs.

Scott S
FT LAUD, FL, U.S.A. - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 15:10:56 (ZULU)

Moe,

Yeah, I'm going to try to keep the M1A as "milSpec" as possible. I don't want anything fancy. I'm either leaning towards the USGI "built" M1A (built on a LRB receiver with H&R Barrel, bolt and parts), or the Springfield "Standard" model. The most I might do is get NM sights and the gas system "unitized". Other than that it's a fun gun. The thing is, the built all USGI (except the flash hider)is $1400 unfired. The Springfield "Standard" is about $1200 and the only thing USGI is the barrel. Is it worth the extra clams to get the all USGI parts?

Thanks

Rich

Rich S.
MD, - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 15:43:47 (ZULU)

Moe,

Link for the ATN-

http://store.yahoo.com/opticsplanet/atn-day-night-riflescope-system-4-12x80dns.html

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 16:42:06 (ZULU)

J. Copeland,

The extractor on my .308 Remington 700 VS is one of the type that's riveted in. You have mail inbound n/a.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 17:22:47 (ZULU)

Robert Martin and Moe. That is a neat looking unit,similar to Sibir Optics NVMT riflescope with a pressure switch to activate the NV.

click on my name for the Sibir Optics site.

http://www.securityandsafetysupply.com/

this is the link to the Aquilia 4x and the Raptor 4 or 6x

Scott S
FT LAUD, FL, U.S.A. - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 17:59:01 (ZULU)

"The thing is, the built all USGI (except the flash hider)is $1400 unfired. The Springfield "Standard" is about $1200 and the only thing USGI is the barrel. Is it worth the extra clams to get the all USGI parts?"

Rich, if you want to spend the extra bucks for "all USGI" go right ahead. Nothing wrong with that and maybe you'll sleep better at night!

Just remember that there is a finite number of USGI parts around. When they finally go away, what then? Lots of M14 guys are getting really anal about having "real" parts in their sticks instead of that "cast" crap from Springfield. But casting technology has progressed over the decades and Springfield DOES have that LIFETIME warranty! The gun's lifetime, not yours!

Scott and Rob - thanks for the links! I'm looking at setting up one of my bolt guns with day/night capabilities without the need of switching out scopes. This could become kinda expensive but it beats $13,000 for those new Elcan thermal image scopes!

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 19:09:03 (ZULU)

Hey Moe,

You gots mail via the DR.

Bravo,

You got mail too. No attatchments.

Thanks

Rich

Rich S.
MD, - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 19:45:47 (ZULU)

DAMN good read:http://www.lizmichael.com/openlett.htm

Yote bait you grumpy old fart, you better not expire before I get a chance to buy you a steak dinner!!!

I watched two good movies this weekend. Open Range, and Second Hand Lions. How the hell can the liberals in hollywood, make movies about honerable men, without a little of the spirit rubbing off on them?

Jarhead nephew #1 is going back to the big sandbox, and #2 is in his 6th week of basic. #2 wrote that he is sick of carrying his rifle... I never thought I'd see the day ; )

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 20:23:17 (ZULU)

Joe M.

You have mail. From my home Add. W/Atach.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Sunday, February 15, 2004, at 22:00:59 (ZULU)

Sinister, thanks for the info on the 870. I thought it may be a restricted item since I couldn't find anything about it on the net or other sources.

I just saw the article about the USAMU in PS. I was surprised when I opened the page and saw your photo. I thought "I know that guy". Nice article, I especially liked the photo of the room you keep your toys in. Made me drool all over a perfectly good magazine.

Thanks to folks that gave me feedback on the Newcon rangefinders.

Keith

keith
NorthCentral , WV, - Monday, February 16, 2004, at 00:29:15 (ZULU)

Zero,

If you need a 6x power, look at the European scopes as well. They love that power level. My favorite for HBR is the Burris Signature. They also have one in the Black Diamond Series. If this is a working gun, Burris is a little too fragile, but they look nice at the range.

Cheap - Nikon Buckmaster fixed 4.

Alternative - Docter fixed 8 with the aspherical lense. I have one on my 30-378, but they have 26mm main tubes. Best resolution I've ever seen. I had to send mine back to Germany to for service. Took nine weeks. The anti reflective coating on the inside flekked onto the inside of the lenses. I love it, though.

When in doubt, stick with Leupold...

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Monday, February 16, 2004, at 01:58:01 (ZULU)

JR: Ten or twelve years ago a rabid (we think) skunk backed my neighbor's Germain Shorthair into a corner. He killed it with one shot from his RWS air-rifle. Somebody called it in and the cops gave him Hell for discharging within city limits. They didn't charge him. I congratulated him for some pretty fancy shooting. I'd have used a .22.

6X scopes: I didn't catch the rifle this scope was to be mounted on.

CDC'
Monday, February 16, 2004, at 02:09:13 (ZULU)

4'S; someday soon on that steak! Yes it makes you wonder how something like second hand Lions ever gets out of that place! I did love that flick. I liked OPen range, Cosner is just about hayseed enough to pull that one off. Reminds of the old days. Gary Cooper, Jimmy Stewart and on and on. I think