Gizmo - We use an even simpler method that is closer to the ballistics of the 168 gr in yards and the 175 grain in meters.  Use a formula that multiplies your SWAG wind estimate by the range in hundreds and divide by 10.  Sounds hard but it is easy to do in your head.  Wind SWAG 5 mph times range of 6 for 600 yards equals 30 divided by 10 gives you 3 moa.  Just our of curiosity check the the wind drift in a ballistic program for the 168 and see what it says for 5 mph at 600.  You will find that the formula comes up short by a few inches at 1000 and is a touch long at 200 but will give you black everytime.  You can simplify it by saying that the 10 mph wind effect is the range in hundreds.  10 mph at 600 is 6 moa, 5 mph is half at 3 moa, 15 is one and a half at 9 moa and 20 is double at 12 moa.  Just a technique we use.

Bruce - that is why we use the two man team concept with the most experienced doing the wind call.  The shooter says "Ready" and MEANS IT.  Another words he will fire within 2-3 seconds after the wind call.  The observer reads the wind does the math and says (with fingers crossed) "Right 1 and a half mils", 2 seconds later BAM!  Dummy in the dirt, or bowling for bozos if you prefer.  :-)

Jeff - Just changed out a trigger and hammer on a Springfield for a guy htat had his broken into several pieces.  About the same round count too.  He also had a shallow extractor peen, Bill.

CDC - NAW, won't even try to go there with the vectors and stuff.  :-)

Bill - Slamming the great M21/M25/M1a?  How could you, I used it for years!  I also made sure that it would NOT be part of the M24 program.  Forgive me BRAVO!

Tyson - On the Sand Sock thing.  We ban them for our students as they cause lazy holding techniques.  Once the shooter learns to hold his weapon firmly and can fully rest his head on the stock by using his jawline and not his cheek bone, then he can consider using a sock as a rear support.  Problem is that too many have used the sock as a supporting crutch and they do not hold the weapon correctly.  This is becuase it is "SO STABLE, I don't want ot disturb it".  Problem is that you must hold the weapon on the target and not let it rest on the target.  Other then that, I have two of Mike's bean bags and they work really well.  They are great for shooting, bore sighting and checking reticles.  ("Shameless plug for mIke here")  :-)

William - Becareful with the Dwyer wind meter.  That ball can trap moisture and give a very bad reading.  On the authors 2,3,4,5 thing I would be leary as the wind will change enough for that to really screw you at the longer ranges.  It is best to try and read the wind for each yard line as a seperate read and learn form that.  To carry a wind read back several hundred yards will cheat you of a reading exercise and can cheat you out of a higher score.

Well, have eaten enough bandwidth this week.  Have enjoyed the discussions on wind alot and look forward to more.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 03:51:52 (ZULU)

Yep, think wind, cos if you don't it will catch you out every time.

I have used wind indicators all my life,and for hunting Ive narrowed it down to:

2-4 mph leaves and grass move.

5-9 mph grass leans and twigs move.

10-14 mph branches move.

15-20 mph trees sway and grass is in constant motion.

and this works in combination with a windage chart i made and has got my bullets in the boiler room 99.9% of the time (when i remember to think WIND, the above story is one of the few times Ive forgot and luckily i shot the deer in the head, and not through the jaw or wind pipe). haven't done much with reading mirage and Jon has got me a wind meter, this will be handy to give me a base line to work from, and its a cool gadget cos it has a couple of other functions aswell.

I always try to stalk around to minimise the value of the wind, this is often possible when hunting, though not always, and if the wind is above 15 mph and i can't get in a better possition, then i don't shoot, A tactical environment is ofcourse a whole different ball game but in all situations I'd take every help I could get, but as in everything, there is no substitute for experience and practice.

my 2 euro cents worth..

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 05:14:17 (ZULU)

Rick:  I could see a 1,000 yd benchrester using something fancier than:  Average wind speed coefficient(best guess) X wind direction coefficient (mainly) X range (probably) and hoping for the best.  Not me though.  Takes too long.  The damned wind will change.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, February 22, 2002, at 05:20:34 (ZULU)

I finally broke down and tried one! My Son bought one! He hates me now cause I bad mouthed my M1a and sold it!   Shameless I is shameless! of course when it comes to rifles, weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luckatall! That detent hole causes some real circus in the field! Ha. Got two coyotes with it though! That scope mount shifted so bad, I missed em so far they died laughing at me!

Brian; Only because the wind ALWAYS! blows here! Actually I wish someone would send me a lesson on shooting without windage?  What in the world do you do if there's no wind? What does a Mirage look like with no wind? Alas!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Friday, February 22, 2002, at 05:49:41 (ZULU)

 The Dept. "O" War OK'ed the building of a HK G-3 clone! This will be a project gun from HELL! She specified the make and model or it woulda been a FAL. Any comments and wisdom are much appreciated. I've never owned a Semi Auto before and want this to complement my bolt gun.

Festus

FESTUS <FESTUS99506@YAHOO.COM>
- Friday, February 22, 2002, at 08:22:24 (ZULU)

I'm in the process of purchasing 4 NV systems for use at

work on our sniper rifles.  We're going with the AN/PVS 14 Gen III Ultra monocular system with the Monoloc setup from Tactical Solutions.  

They're designing a mounting solution using specially made Talbot QR

mounts to avoid the use of stock extenders.  Does anyone have any

experience with the Talbot mounts?  Durable?  They also have a slide lock setup, but we want to avoid any change of POI and having to make scope adjustments.

We looked at the Simrad, and while it's great, it's outside of our

budget for 4 of the units right now.

Thanks in advance.....

Bob

Non <bobr@charter.net>
WI, US - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 10:00:55 (ZULU)

On rear bags...

Kevin Maries uses a baseball sized sock filled with rice. Nice concept...if things get tough you've always got something to eat!

Gizmo, on the other hand uses the, as yet, unpatented "donkey ball" system. IF I remember correctly, from last week, it's one black and two green. I really was afraid to ask...he was so damn proud of them you'da thought they was his own!

Forgot that Undude markets bags...will have to get one on order. Am getting the wife to sew one of my own design. If it works out I'll fill you all in...

Brother "B". Talked with him several weeks ago...he's staying clear of the list, for obvious reasons, until the current unpleasantness is over. I can let you know he is OK. Miss his shameless support of the M25 gas gun, but after getting my Geoff Corn rifle I can understand how he feels. Even if you could buy about four Rem PSS's for what is invested!

Gotta run...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, US of A - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 10:17:05 (ZULU)

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/20/us.hostage.policy/index.html

The correct response is; hunt down the perps and burn them alive.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, February 22, 2002, at 13:36:02 (ZULU)

I figure you do this out of common courtesy so as to not offend those of us that are currently in the tactical environment.  Pete, I am sure you would excel in the tactical business had you had the mind to take that path.  These days, you are probably better off where you are now, I think.  I'd share a hide with you anyday (that is, unless you snore or fart. Just can't abide those two in close quarters).  

I was hunting as soon as I could learn to shoot responsibly on my own.  I remember playing soldier at five years old.  When the neighborhood kids would go in for lunch, I'd pass on the boloney sandwich, cover myself with grass and snipe hell out of 'em when they came out.  Guess some things never change.

I shared a room once a couple years back with Gary Lavergne.  Cajun guy.  Works at University of Texas.  Gary's Dad was a cop in Louisiana.  Gary authored "A Sniper in the Tower" about the Charles Whitman killings.  We were both guest speakers at a Sniper conference when we roomed together.  In the book, is a picture of Whitman holding two rifles as a really small boy.  Gary said he always tells people off who claim that it was Whitman's early exposure to guns that caused him to kill folks.  Gary always tells 'em, "nah, he was just a mean sonofabitch".  Last year, Gary got a new job.  Guess where his office is ? In the damn tower when they re-opened it. What irony. I sent him a black and white photo of me in diapers, at about eighteen months, leaning against a 61 Dodge Dart holding a Browning A5 shotgun.  He got a kick out of it.  He calls me the "Anti-Whitman".

Watch your sixes my brothers,

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, February 22, 2002, at 13:46:40 (ZULU)

I use them unless I am going for a stroll in the woods, then its back to carry this or more water.  Damm water wins everytime. Then I use my multiple adjustable, at arms length, rear stock supporting, tactical colored, skin tight, good old HAND.  I carry it everywhere.

Everyday I get older and take less with me.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 16:21:51 (ZULU)

I think we SHOULD pay the ransoms.

First we pay in greenbacks, then we pay in copper.

The price for this shit should be SO HIGH... that if someone even contemplates this kind af action, their families will abandon them in fear of the brutal retaliation.  If the government doesn't have the stones for it, then hand it over to the private sector!!

The Israeli's had it right on the Olympic things... you hunt them down, and kill them, their families, their dogs, and their parakeettes... lemme see, did I leave something out?

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 16:21:58 (ZULU)

Yeah, you left something out...THEIR CATS!!

By the way would WE qualify as the "Private Sector"??

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 16:46:43 (ZULU)

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/calahan.htm

This illustrates the proper way to deal with these people.  Unfortunately, we live in a society that avoids confronting hard truths.  We want the clinical, detached way of dealing with the problem.  Nothing fancy or particularly high tech here - no cruise missiles or aircraft carriers (or MOA for that matter).  Just hard work, good in-the-trenches leadership, patience, skilled and motivated team members, and some .22 caliber pistols.

One interesting note is how the other team, the one that operated through the Israeli intelligence bureaucracy, screwed up so badly.  Makes you wonder how the CIA functions at all.  Oops, guess Sep. 11 answers that one.

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 17:23:05 (ZULU)

Have a #18 ARMS mount with QR rail and GG&G rings...E-mail me.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
The Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 18:25:27 (ZULU)

Last Monday I stopped by the Remington factory to drop off my .223 LTR.  This rifle would not shoot a group for love nor money.

I got no further than the guard shack but I was treated well enough.  The guard was polite and seemed to know his business.

I called today to check on progress.

I got to speak on the phone with a nice lady that looked up this repair in the computer.  She says, "I see here it's going down to the gallery to be test fired.  There's also a note that says that on this model the accuracy spec. is one and a half inches for five shots at  one hundred yards.  Give us another week or so."

Why do I feel like I'm about to get a prostate check?

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 20:34:53 (ZULU)

Hopefully they will find you have a bum crown....

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., US of A - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 20:56:27 (ZULU)

got a reloading question, and yup, probably a bit anal, but i do not have big humanshaped living targets to hit but small paper things with rings on it.

Last week i had a discussion with some dutchies about OAL of a cartridge.

I think most will agree that the OAL should be just long enough so the bullet will ALMOST touch the rifling, and it will only have a very small jump, wright?

My thought on this, is that every round should be just as long as the next, in my case 2.906 inch, so i just made 50 rounds who all are 2.906 exact.

To get this however i can not just put the bullet seating die on 2.906 and put all rounds through it, cause in that case i get 50 rounds all with different OAL's.(does not matter what brand of die, all will give different OAL's, this is due to the fact that every bullit is shaped differently, especially the point, and so every bullit is of a different lenght). So what i do, is with every round i turn the die 5 clicks up, put the case and bullet in it, press down, measure the round's OAL, and put it back in the die, adjust the amount of clicks on the die and press down again, and voila, 1 round of exactly 2.906 inch.

But if you do it this way, the rifling will touch the body of a bullit on a different part on each bullits body.

So my question is this; What is more important for groupsize, that the OAL's are exactly the same of all rounds or that the rifling touches each bullit on the same part of its body??

Intrigued what you guys think of this,

Marco.

ps; A guy on "wooden" skates just skated a new WORLD RECCORD on the olympics, on the 10 km's speed skating...what a small country can be great in!

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 20:57:24 (ZULU)

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
Bartlesville, OK, USA - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 21:43:59 (ZULU)

Your question:  What is more important for groupsize, that the OAL's are exactly the same of all rounds or that the rifling touches each bullit on the same part of its body?

The simple answer is the later.  As HDR indicated you need a tool to assist with measuring at the ogive and not the tip of the bullet for the exact reason you indicated.  Being under a certain OAL is usually a matter of fitting into a magazine.

My Redding Competition bullet seater took a dump recently and I wanted to load some 175 gr. .308 ammo.  I took a factory Federal Match round and placed it in the press and simply ran the seater plug on a standard seating die down until it touched the bullet and locked it in place.  I then finished loading my ammo with good results at the range.

If you are wanting to seat the bullet close to the lands to try and get better accuracy results you will need a tool like the RCBS cartridge mic or a Stoney Point tool to measure the maximum length to lands.  A strange thing about bullet jump, some guns are very sensitive to this and others will jump a mile and still shot one hole groups it is all trial and error and more black magic!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 22:26:35 (ZULU)

I learned to shoot as a kid, using an airgun and stretching the envelope of airgun range will teach you all sorts about wind and trajectory.My Dad used to send me out with either a 22 or a 4/10 and he would give me 2 rounds. I either brought back both rounds or some meat, if i missed, i got an earbending about wasting ammo. I must have put thousands or pellets through the airgun though, I prefered it because it was quiet and didn't scare the game, it meant stalking in close, which i loved.

If you look back into history, just about all the notable or well known snipers have had hunting backgrounds or where bush men,the talents required to hunt game effectively apply 90% of the time to a hunter of man. Target shooting is fun, but to me it is only a way to practice one of the arts needed to successfully hunt game( man or beast) with a fire arm, I can't understand that some guys shoot targets but have no desire to hunt,  its just ...incomplete..

Marco, you dropping by in the morning? or not, Ill be home by 10.00hrs(providing i don't get stuck in a jam behind a burning truck again like yesterday, if you are earlier than that, Anke is there.

Pete.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 22:57:54 (ZULU)

I took a sailing course a few years ago and was taught to "predict" or read the wind by watching the speed, direction and size of the little ripples on the surface of the water. You could be sitting in a dead calm and actually watch the wind approach and fill your sails. Obviously this technique has very limited practical value to our discussion but it does illustrate how even out on the water, which is perfectly flat with very few obtructions, the velocity and direction of the wind will do spooky things.

Training aid question:

I'd like to get more hands on experience doing range estimation with mil dots but I live in an area of the country where pulling out a rifle and doping targets would probably not be prudent. Short of pulling my scope off the rifle or buying another expensive piece of optic gear, does anyone have any suggestions on a field expedient training aid. I'am thinking like a roll of TP and some dental floss;)

Paul J. Martoccia <pmartoc@sprynet.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, February 22, 2002, at 23:06:15 (ZULU)

Nick... save the Cats for me ;))... and yeah, WE would qualify as "private sector"!! :)))))

-

Andy's dad... look out for the sand in the vasoline, you are about to get the "Remington grease job".  Shit, their shotguns will do almost that good.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 00:56:39 (ZULU)

Proud of the little 16 year old skating chick, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 01:05:56 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 01:44:31 (ZULU)

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 03:01:01 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 03:25:59 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 05:16:09 (ZULU)

This is not to say that a combination of correct seating depth and neck sizing accuracy won't be the most desirable of all the conditions discussed herein.

The overall shape of the chamber to fit with the size of the brass can be very influential in accuracy. Tighter chamber has a good chance of properly positioning the bullet with respect to the bore and thus better accuracy at least has a change to occur.

The trick here is to obtain good tactical accuracy and still keep things reliable enough to keep malfuctions from occuring due to non uniformity in case diameters and chamber heating. With factory or full sized rounds it becomes more important to use the seating of the bullet in the lands to determine the exact enter of the bullet in the bore so it's more likely to affect accuracy if more too short seating depth is enountered.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 05:30:47 (ZULU)

Fort Wolters....just west of Dallas.

Sal Scozzafava <scozz@prexar.com>
Maine, - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 12:07:12 (ZULU)

I have a scope question for those more experienced out there.  I have a M3 LR on a 20 MOA tapered base.  If I wanted to put a MK 4 M3 on that base will the scope have enough adjustment for a 100 yd zero?  And have I created any other problems?

Thanks.

Out,

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 14:01:11 (ZULU)

Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 14:23:58 (ZULU)

Gavan, is that the time you thought you were wrong but you weren't?

All,

Is it possible to restock my 700 PSS DM (I know, I know)with a stock from McMillian, HS or someone without a DM?  The DM on mine has been reliable, guess I got a good one, but limits OAL to 2.80".

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 14:28:23 (ZULU)

Might also tell them to check out Tac-Pro. It is located near Stephenville, Tx.

Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 14:51:57 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-fumento022202.shtml

This is the fifth in a five-part series on taking down Sadaam.  Links to the first four parts are at the top of the page.  Its worthwhile reading.

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/robbins022202.shtml

The Sept 11 attacks were supposed to destoy our national will and morale.  European elite opinion was that we were panicked and cowering.  

Did the Americans shown in the Olympic coverage look demoralized, panicked and cowardly?

The Iraqi Baathists and Iran's ruling Mullahs are moving toward their appointed ends.  These ragged-ass terrorist networks are too.  They'll end up like the pirates the Brits exterminated in the middle of the 19th century.

Chumps.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 15:11:27 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info.  I have Badger rings and base.  I have the tapered base for the LR scope because of lack of adjustment for that scope/rings/base combo.  If I am able to afford the MK 4 in the future I wanted to make sure that I was not creating any problems before I spent the coin.

Thanks,

Out.

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 15:47:36 (ZULU)

Check this out...would make someone a nice starter gun....fair amount of custom work....good buy at $950.

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=3213594

Sal <scozz@prexar.com>
ME, - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 16:51:45 (ZULU)

We're going to do fine.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/940hoisz.asp

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 18:26:31 (ZULU)

It was the first day of school and a new student named Suzuki, the son

of a

Japanese businessman, entered the fourth grade in the US.

>

The teacher said, 'Let's begin by reviewing some American history.  Who

said

'Give me Liberty, or give me Death?'  She saw a sea of blank faces,

except

for Suzuki, who had his hands up. 'Patrick Henry, 1775.' he said.

>

Very good! Who said 'Government of the people, by the people, for the

people, shall not perish from the earth'? Again, no response except

from

Suzuki: 'Abraham Lincoln, 1863.', said Suzuki.

>

The teacher snapped at the class, Class, you should be ashamed.  

Suzuki, who

is new to our country, knows more about its history than you do.'

>

She heard a loud whisper: 'Screw the Japs.'

>

'Who said that?' she demanded.

>

Suzuki put his hand up. 'Lee Iacocca, 1982.'

>

At that point, a student in the back said, 'I'm gonna puke.' The

teacher

glares and asks, 'All right! Now, who said that?'  Again, Suzuki says,

'George Bush to the Japanese Prime Minister, 1991.'

>

Now furious, another student yells, 'Oh yeah? Suck this!' Suzuki jumps

out

of his chair waving his hand and shouts to the teacher, 'Bill Clinton,

to

Monica Lewinsky, 1997!'

>

Now with almost a mob hysteria someone said, 'You little shit.  If you

say

anything else, I'll kill you.' Suzuki frantically yells at the top of

his

voice, 'Gary Condit to Chandra Levy 2001.'

>

The teacher fainted. And as the class gathered around the teacher on

the

floor, someone said, 'Oh shit, we're in BIG trouble! and Suzuki said,

'The

Taliban! 2001.'

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
- Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 19:55:52 (ZULU)

Out.

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 22:47:17 (ZULU)

You might try the long range simulations at http://www.shooterready.com

The target is a paper square, so relating the sim to game or tactical use is not direct, but the principles are there.

Sarge:  1k yards near Dallas - Tac-Pro, North of Stephenville may be your best bet.  They want 1k-yd shooters to "qualify" - to demonstrate that shooter/gun/ammo/sight combo is capable of keeping fire on the berm at 1k.  The safe area behind the berm is somewhat small.   http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com  

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 23:01:10 (ZULU)

Jim - If you go to the shoot at Lewis, check and see if Maj(Ret) Econ is there, if so say hi to him for me.  We haved known each other for longer then we care to admit.  Very good man, shot, and instructor.

Paul - Training with mil dots at reduced distance ranges. However close your scope will focus is a good start point for reduced distance targets.  If it is 25 yards then all the better since it is easy to compute but 35 yards, 50 yards, whatever the principle is the same.  Make up targets based on a target silhouette of 36 inches by 18 inches.  this gives an easy math problem at the formula will use the height in yards (1) times 1000 divided by mil reading.  Say the target is 2 mils tall then 1 times 1000 divided by 2 equals 500 yards.  NOW how the hell is htis going to help you in practice.  Well that 2 mils equals 2 times 3.44 or 6.88 moa and 1 moa at 25 yards equals .25 inches so 6.88 times .25 equals a reduced target of 1.72 incehs.  This means that a target drawn 1.72 inches will equal in mils the range of a target that is 1 yard tall at 500 yards.  Now say you want to represent a 200 yard target to practice miling.  OK, at 200 yards a 1 yard tall target is 5 mils tall.  Now 5 mils is 17.2 moa and at 25 yards one moa is .25 inches so again .25 times 17.2 and you have a reduced height of 4.3 inches.  Fun huh?  Make up a bunch of targets on pieces of paper and number them.  Set them out at the reduced distance range say 25 yards (Backyard could work).  Mil them and write down the range to the corresponding numbered target.  Now collect up the targets and measure them as to hieght and then compute the simulated range for the targets and see how close you are.  Practice, practice practice.  Have fun man.  If you have any questions on this email me or ask on here.  I will try to help.

Someone asked some time ago about a computer program that makes targets, Go to sinclairintl.com. theyhave a two disk set that makes targets of all kinds and it allows you to customize them as well.

Mike - Didn't know you didn't make those anymore.  I agree with you on the hand, it is always with you and does not swell up like mad when it gets wet as does rice.  

Also as a side note, rice gets a fungus that will make you sicker then a dog or cat if you are 'Lito.  do not rely on it as a survival ration.  :-)

Bob - I would watch changeing your scope back and forth on your mount.  I do not think you will get enough movement to save your eyeball from collision.  Check with H&S stocks, they make a stock especially for what you want to do.  Another point of the SIMRADs is that they need to be mounted on a low power scope.  Variables are the best solution to that problem, as you can lower it at night and raise it back up during the day as required.  Another thought is that you can't read wind at night worth a dang so shooting with any accuracy past 300 to 400 is a difficult thing to do.  Wind moves bullets, sometimes a littel sometimes ALOT.

CDC - I agree, that is why we have the wind down to the simlest form without all the whiz bang.

Well enough again, thought this would be a small post but got long winded again, sorry for the bandwidth.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, February 23, 2002, at 23:16:17 (ZULU)

Okay so this is kinda' off topic but here goes.

My bro in law is putting together a "military bolt-gun shoot" on April 6th in the Pittsburgh area.  Now, any weapon is allowed provided it's a military bolt gun with iron sights (although I'm bringin' the PSS'S anyway).  Sounds like a hoot, so I decided I'd do it.  Now the rub.  I don't gots an old military bolt gun and I DON'T have the money for a 1917 or an 03A3 (although I'd love one of each).  So what do you guys recommend for an accurate, old, fun military bolt gun in the $200 range?  Enfields, Mosins, Yugo Mausers, Swede mausers?  What models or styles of whatever would be good?  I know there's a lot of great deals out there right now, but it's a little overwhelming if you don't know squat about old guns.

If any of younz are interested in the shoot drop me a line and I'll put you in touch with my bro-in-law.

thanks guys,

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 00:12:43 (ZULU)

If there's EVER any problem with the bandwidth that Rick is using, please send me the bill.  I'd like to buy enough that he can post whatever, whenever he wants and doesn't have to worry about bandwidth. ;)))

Rich S.,

I've been looking at some of the rifles you've mensioned.  My money would go to the Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 first(if you can find one that cheap), then the 8mmm Yugo Mausers as my second choice.  I spent a day on the range last year practicing with a 300WM, scope on 24x.  I put 40 rounds down, and my best group was about 3/4", most in the 1.5 - 2.0" range.  The two guys next to me both had Swede mausers, and when we went down for our last targets, they both has shot 10 shots into a 1" square at 100yards with crappy irons sights. Upon looking at the targets they had on the table, it wasn't a  fluke.  I walked away angry, dismayed, and with a healthy respect for the Swedish Mauser. Oh, and Fed GMM is available in 6.5x55.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 01:39:49 (ZULU)

This new drag bag you have acquired sounds interesting. Back when I had access to heavy duty sewing machines in our paraloft, I made such a drag bag out of a section of a GP tent, scuba webbing and some other goodies. I gave that bag away when I stopped toting a rifle, but I would like to get a bag similar to it.

On the MK4 M3 with tapered bases, you don't need them, but they can be used with eachother. I had a Badger Base that I was going to originally going to have a Varix M3 LR, bit I went with a Mk4 instead, no problems.

Any info on da' bag you have would me appreciated.

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florabamma, US of A - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 03:00:31 (ZULU)

I'll bet that we pull out all the stops to get our hands on this dumb-ass.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$HF5ZE5AAACHL5QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/02/24/wpearl24.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/02/24/ixnewstop.html

How's this for a brilliant political move:  Just when the big American papers started going wobbly, these idiots kidnap and brutally murder one of their reporters and emphasize that he was targeted for being Jewish.  Do you suppose they LIKE watching their friends die grisly deaths?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 03:54:49 (ZULU)

Rich S if you can get a swede in your price range do it.If those guys at the range were usin origional sights they werent to crappy by modern standards.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 05:36:46 (ZULU)

There is a rumor that I am bashing HS Precision(thru internet, which means this site) into bankruptcy or something like that.  I think we all know better than that, my nose is clean of all that hubbub...  sheesh...  had 3 emails on that shite...  you know me better than that, geez let's get that cleared up

later

JR

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
East River, sd, - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 05:41:59 (ZULU)

A few days ago I explained how my new M1A1's trigger stopped working on round 155 while using Hornady Tap ammo. I finally had the time to scope it out throughly.  It was tough to figure out because with the trigger assembly out of the gun NOTHING looked wrong but the trigger would not release the hammer.( Yes I had the trigger guard closed )  I took my Garand trigger out also and studied then both. Finally after figuring out how to secure the hammer spring by wrapping the whole assembly with surgical tubbing I chanced using a punch to push out the trigger pin. It came out in two pieces!!!  Here's the bad part.  Right away it seems to me that both pieces together in my hand are awful light. Examination of the face of each piece at the break showed FROSTING.  Under a magnifying glass it showed POROSITY!!!!!  This sucker is a casting I'm 99 percent sure. What is this junk?

I have loved all my .45's from Springfield and believe they are a great company. Did all the  mil spec parts dry up after 911 so they used this stuff or what?  They were most insistent on the phone that I send in the whole trigger group in.  But on Monday I'm just telling them to send a pin.  Or maybe 52 pins. One for each week cause thats about how much I shoot, one trigger pin per 155 shots.  If I was in LE I would think it criminal to supply a gun to me with such a part. Although I have other weapons for home  defense I'm sure glad I never had to depend on this one.

What ties up the trigger with that pin cracked is that the main trigger body slips fowrard  just a wee  little to close to the  housing for the hammer spring but this little bit  prevents the sear from releasing. Until you knock it out you can't tell what is wrong because the cracked pin stays in real tight and the ends look OK. Anybody taking delivery of these things in the last six months ought to change out or at least check the trigger pin. Maybe back even longer. Maybe Springfield needs to come clean about it, period.

Keep your powder dry.

Jeffrey L. Baker <sav99fbake@aol.com>
Wintersville, Ohio, U.S.A. - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 11:34:06 (ZULU)

Got my Turner sling in yesterday. Nice. Now all I have to do is figger out how to use it! Undude's slings are much easier to adjust. Shame they aren't legal.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 16:34:00 (ZULU)

Big bummer yesterday on the German 300 meter range with the Win HBV.

My loads of the 155 grainers at 2917fps wich did so well on the 100 meters, performed way under my expectations on the 300 meters.

Got average 10 shot groupsizes of 5 inches and 5 shot groups of 4 1/2 inches, was hoping for 3 inches.

Give 'em one more try on the 500 meter range, cause maybe they perform better on longer distances.

Otherwise it is either back to the 167 grainers or the 170 lockbases.

Pete, thank the misses for the coffee m8 and keep in touch about the long range Scottish huntin, cause i got a feeling you convinced my friend to come along aswell.

Cya around,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 20:45:45 (ZULU)

Hmmmmm said he, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 22:01:19 (ZULU)

Has anyone checked out the M40A1 build up at the tactical stocks website? (tacticalstocks.com)  Anyone ever seen one in person or have taken the "plunge" and ordered one?  The pricing seems pretty good.  Thinking about trying one out...what do you guys think?   e-mail me if you want your comments private at  tiger_dog1998@yahoo.com   I need some feed back from you guys please !!

Thanks for your time and your opinions...

BUFF

BUFF <tiger_dog1998@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 22:35:32 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 23:08:41 (ZULU)

keith  

Lito, nieghbors cats got into trash can may have a mission for you!

keith <bucklins@earthlink.net>
Waynesboro, va, usa - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 01:25:03 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Monday, February 25, 2002, at 02:16:42 (ZULU)

Springfield Armory sometimes uses cast trigger mech. parts.  Some, who may or may not be more enlightened than myself, swear these are pure junk.  If you are a member of a CMP afilliated club, you can get a complete GI trigger group, ASSEMBLED, for $35.  

Their website is http://www.odcmp.com

Rifle's, parts and all sorts of good stuff on there, but you've got to be a member to buy from them.

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
Dela-Where?, - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 02:18:16 (ZULU)

The two stage trigger on an AR let's the trigger be adjusted to a finer "feel" for when it breaks, instead of having one long, heavy pull.  There are a couple different basic designs for AR two stagers.  One is a modified standard trigger, marketed by Bushmaster.  The others work similar to an M-1/M-14/M-1A trigger.  Some are adjustable (Milazzo, Jewel) and others are adjusted by filing (Armalite).  The two stage allows for more sear engagement to reduce recoil-induced full-auto firing, or sear-jumping.  When properly setup, teh first stage takes up all the slack, then the second stage can have however much engagement one wonts to feel comfortable with controlling, from a fine glass rod breaking, to snapping a green twig!

Good Luck.  I can't tell you how many thousand $ I've spent since a "friend" introduced me to Hipower, and the bug it me, but consider at least 6 full blown match rifles of one sort or another...

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
Dela-Where?, - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 02:35:31 (ZULU)

Billfold keeps getting lighter and lighter, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 03:10:40 (ZULU)

A Jewell two stage trigger is just $173 delivered!!  

I know how you feel about gearing up, I'm in the process now, but I look at a two stage as a high priority.  The single stage JP trigger is nice for an AR, but I found offhand to be MUCH easier with the 1lbs let off of the two stage.

You kinda need more stuff!! ;))

BTW, Anyone lookin' to sell a used Jewell for a standard pin AR CHEAP!! ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 03:16:09 (ZULU)

Just a word of caution. Just in case someone thinks about using the Ruger 99 (.44 Magnum with Mini 14 action) for something other than deer hunting. Please don't, there are enough widows in the world already. I just tested one. There are many shortcomings. TAkes a week to change the clip for one thing. They call it a "deerfield" and that ain't for nothing. It's mostly a single shot with bad extractor,,, very weak. Some other changes that worked in the action but the gas port would be quite a show if the stock weren't there to protect your hand. If you are having extraction problems with one and only want to hunt deer with it e-mail me for a fix.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Monday, February 25, 2002, at 04:04:52 (ZULU)

I don't know any secrets, I just emailed Buff that I have pictures of my rifles from George & Jerry and that I could email them to him off line if he wanted me to. I didn't intend for my post to be mistaken for an opinion regarding somebody's work. I do not have any first hand expierence with John, so I just commented on what I know about my rifles.

Sorry for the confusion, I deleted my earlier comment.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 15:26:36 (ZULU)

You need more STUFF!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 16:01:29 (ZULU)

Thanks,

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 18:44:53 (ZULU)

Generally not impressed with the company so far.  The PC version appears to work fine, but the data zip file that came with it could not be opened by my computer.  I am having a problem with the Palm version.  There is no telephone number for customer questions (not even a toll number) on the web site.  Not a good sign.  Also a comment on their own message board from another user with problems from January.  Should have read that before buying.

Thanks for any help.

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 18:47:03 (ZULU)

I found the link to those pictures on biggerhammer.net. I thought that they were pretty cool. There was also a picture of a USO SN5 in use that caught my eye. I haven't seen many pictures from Afganistan so I thought that I would post the linkk to share.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 18:53:57 (ZULU)

I have two bolt action rifles, an FN SPR in .308 w/ a 26" bbl.

The other is a Rem.700 Police 308. w/ a 26" bbl. that I am planning on having cut down to 20".  I also plan to put the new H-S urban police rifle stock on it.(PST59).  

Question?  I've been using 168gr. Match ammo.  But with a 20" inch bbl. should I go with a lighter bullet weight with more velocity or what?  

I would like to hear some input other than that I'm stupid for screwing up a good rifle.  

Thanks!

Larry

Larry <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mountain, NC, USA - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 20:19:00 (ZULU)

Rick:  I didn't know you and Gene go back.  He's helped me out with a lot of answers and good advice in the past.   Maybe you can get him to join the roster.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 20:42:53 (ZULU)

Didn't quite realise you and Gene knew each other either - though I should have guessed.  Good man.  And that explains a lot to me.  And confirms a lot more.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Monday, February 25, 2002, at 20:54:10 (ZULU)

My own (the one I shoot most often) is 20" by the way. Ilost about 80 fps. Shooting 168 grainers. Varget powder.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 22:47:08 (ZULU)

That's a good idea about buying a match barrel instead of cutting the one I have.

It was interesting that I had a phone conversation eariler today with the gunsmith that works on the local law enforcement rifles here in Cleveland County (Joe Goforth).  When I talked to him about cuting my rifle bbl length down, Joe aked me why not 22".  Sounds like I'm getting some good info.  

Thanks again men.

Larry

Larry <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mountain, NC, USA - Monday, February 25, 2002, at 23:42:05 (ZULU)

Myself and one of the DR lurkers spent some time on the 500, 600 and 1000 yard lines yesterday.  The Nosler J4 168 did exceptional at 500 and 600, but lacked the heft to stay supersonic at 1000.  I was anxious to see how they did, as they were seated over a full 46gr Varget and I believe have a published BC higher than the SMK, but all shots were subsonic by the time they hit the target at a grand.

I also got to see a SPR in action for the first time.  VERY nice rifle, Tom spent some time removing the DBM and installing a drop plate fed system and glassing it in.  It performed flawlessly and was very accurate.  Got a good look at the crome "Lined" barrel.  It didn't looked lined to me... Looked more like a sleeve...  JR, am I off base here?

I'm wondering if they'll be any issues re-crowning a crome lined barrel if you cut it down.  I see sub-minute does a 20" SPR, anyone here done one yet?

I'd also like to thank ya'll for the wind descussion over the last few days.  I managed to raise my score over my last 1000 shoot 13 points.  Didn't win, but placed respectable and that's a good start. That brings me to another question.

During my 1k shoot, it seemed that when the sun was out down range (several seconds before the shot) and the firing line to about the 400 or 500 yard line stayed overcast, my bullet impacted quite a bit high(7 ring @ 12 on NRA 1K target), and when I adjusted for it (dropped 2 moa)and the range went completely overcast again, two in a row impacted low(8 ring @ 6).  I'm willing to chalk it up to slight charge errors or operator headspace and timing, but I wanted to see if any of ya had an opinion on this.

(edited after checking scorecard)

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 00:07:07 (ZULU)

Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle - Riffle Raffle...

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhaandle, Texas, US of A - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 00:47:19 (ZULU)

About a year ago I purchased a Bushmaster Shorty to be used as a patrol gun.  It has the collapseable stock, flash suppressor and bayonet lug.  I needed the chiefs signature saying it was for patrol use, etc.  It says for Law Enforcement,yada, yada on the receiver. I was told by several people that this type of rifle could be purchased while you're a working cop and you could keep it when retired.  I was sorely disappointed to find on the ATF website information to the contrary.  "When I retire it should be transferred to a dealer or a working cop". ***End of whine***

I post this for two reasons:  1) So you are better informed than I was (of course everyone other than me may know this).  2)  Is there loophole around this so I can keep it when retired?

John <jkubrock@hotmail.com>
Cottonwood, AZ, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 01:38:05 (ZULU)

I called UPS to find one of their counter stores and went there to ship it.  Cost $13.19 plus a twenty minute drive.  That is the last business they (MailBoxes) will get from me.  (Rant off)

I sent my PSS to George for a make-over.  New "Rock" barrel, blueprinted action and refinishing.  After reading the Rock Jr. article I called George and he is going to fix me up.  He is backed up a littel so it will be about 6 weeks (bummer) before I get it back.  I may have just enough time though to get a load ready for the Allegheny Sniper match.

Great thread on wind guys I printed them and put them in my "Hot Tips" notebook.  Thanks all that contributed.

Keith

Keith <keith37f20@excite.com>
North Central, WV, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 02:02:43 (ZULU)

I tried to check their website for a link to an on line version, but their archives are currently down.  The main site is www.marinecorpstimes.com   Maybe it will be up soon.

Other than the pack simply self destructing, there were problems with durability of the camelbak water bladders, which resulted in some Marines having water shortages, since they had been counting on that capacity.

Looks like maybe ALICE wasn't such a bitch after all.  

Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
- Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 03:32:00 (ZULU)

Can not wait to put some rounds through it. May have to use some sick leave...

Bolt, you can not have enought stuff. Bills yes, toys no...

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
Egarly waiting the new stick...San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 04:31:26 (ZULU)

On the new MOLLE gear. I have no doubt the Marines tore it up after seeing the design. Remember NOTHING is Marine proof...

The list is long and distinguished on systems the Marines "adopted" and later proved unfit for combat...including the POS M-9 9mm(OK, Beretta 92 for you civies).

My first experience with Marine packs was the Field Marching Pack of 1941 with blanket roll and entrenching tool, then the Alice Pack(GOOD GEAR), and now MOLLE? Seems the like folks in charge of SWAT FASHION SHOWS have taken over service procurement. Ever seen how ragged successful grunts look and what they pack? Why? Because it works and is proven. Christ, we don't need all the new fangled gear...just support when and where desired...the lads will take care of the rest.

OF COURSE I'm talking Marines here...

Just got done stripping the Remington 30S Express, in 7 X 57. Metal is clean and will rust blue nicely. Am going to salvage the stock, as it is serial numbered to the gun. Will take some serious work, but will be worth while. When completed I'll add a Whelan sling and have a true classic! They only made 22,836 of these. Of that, only a handful in 7 X 57.

Scored an original diopter for the Lyman 48 peep sight. Now need a fron sight hood and it will be complete for the project. Any of you folks got granpa's gun with a front sight hood he won't miss...;-)?

On the M-9 service pistol. I have seen it fail miserably in the combat environment. Nothing could make me carry one. I was carrying my 1911 issue pistol at the time and damn glad of it.

Not to mention the darn thing feels like a 2x4 in your hand...

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 05:04:03 (ZULU)

As to my own experience with MOLLE, I saw MOLLE1, Garbage! They started issuing the new MOLLE2 swill @ TBS as I was departing for flight school. I think it is pure S&*T, almost as bad as the 1st. Before I traded my cammies in for a flight suit, I humped the bush of Oki, The PI, Malaysia, Korea, Camp Pendleton Etc.. The hodge-podge collection of cable-tied gear that I used, I feel was far superior to the MOLLE system. In current times, I have gear from Special Operations Equiptment and that is light years ahead of MOLLE.

Now, MOLLE has some merit, and I understand what the direction "they" (ie. the powers that be) want to go with it. It gives the individual operator the flexibility to set up his gear to his own liking (granted that would never happen in the Corps, SOP's and all) It is a good idea, but I was not impressed with the workmanship. EAGLE has been making modular vests for years, I used one while at 3rd Recon, those vests were awesome, as for MOLLE, Ok for the Boy Scouts, for me, no way!

Kush out

As a side note, don't forget that our gear is made by the lowest bidder!!!!!!! That's funny, right?

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florabamma, Phrog Phorever - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 05:08:26 (ZULU)

Why do you think the MEU pistol of choice is still the Colt 1911 MKIV Series 80? No girly 9mm for the door kickers! And when you run out of boolets, you can bludgeon the bad guys into submission.

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florabamma, Phrog Phorever - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 05:12:00 (ZULU)

On the "LE only" rifle thing.  The ATF folks up in these parts tell us that unless someone retired from the force does something really stupid, simply possessing a "LE only" weapon will very likely incur NO problems. Same for all the "LE only" high capacity pistol mags.

Anyone hear anything on legislators being prompted to open an amnesty period for un-reported war trophies?  Was a bit of mention in Shotgun News a short while back.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 06:19:35 (ZULU)

Daniel <diabloprince@hotmail.com>
England - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 09:05:15 (ZULU)

First timer on this site.Have any of you tried paintball as part of your training?If not you should-apart from been able to shoot your mates in the arse,i've found it is execellent training,on the wood fields it tests your cam+con,marksmanship,stealth and tactics,you can even get PSG1 and M4 paintguns for the hardcore warriors!

If your wondering how i should know-its my job,I'm the current master marshall for a very large paintball company in England.

Daniel

"Give me an inch..i'll give you a bruise!"

Daniel <diabloprince@hotmail.com>
England - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 09:13:34 (ZULU)

This tells me there is a very big problem with the gear that they are issued for deployment. Steve tells me it is the same in Virginia Beach where his other store is located as well as London Bridge, another tactical equipment store in that town.

I'm glad to see these young Marines worring about having good gear to deploy in, but they are spending a ungodly amount of money to be well equiped. These are not just the special ops types, but the grunts too.

I think this is a sad state of affairs for the richest country in the world. It's bad enough SWAT cops normally have to buy their own gear. We all know how cheep most police and sheriff's departments are.

Just an observation.

Semper Fi,

Finger  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 13:38:31 (ZULU)

You are correct. Even when I was with the sraight-leg grunts, too often I got issued an unservicable piece of gear and turned it in and got back something that was worse than what I turned in. Now, that will depend on the Unit climate. While I was with 3/9 and 3rd Recon, often I would see the admin types wearing brand-spanking new gear  when the in the weeds PFC carrying a '60 was wearing swap meet quality gear.

On the other hand, While at 1st Force, and in my dealings with other units that had kick-ass Sup-O's and Log-O's, have seen gear that was in pretty good shape and the people who needed it, had it.

This is not a flame on the MC or how we do biz, just an observation from a E-dog turned Zero who now is playing on the other side of the fence.

As far as the high-speed gear, I have owned more combos of non-issue gear that I could afford. As many Mil bubbas on this site can attest, you constantly change your gear, depends what you are doing. As I mentioned in my last post, that is what a modular MOLLE system is trying to do, which is give the operators in the weeds the flexibiloity to add and remove things to what siuts you.

Ok, gear rant turned off

I anxiously await my US Optics M40A1 scope thich should be ready any century now.

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florabamma, - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 16:05:41 (ZULU)

It does not surprise me to hear about problems like the poorly designed chinstrap that keeps allowing the helmet to rotate forward over your eyes or the pack that keeps you from raising your head in the prone.

I also do not understand how light infantry units can stay combat effective carrying the heavy loads I hear about.  The civilian rule of thumb is 1/3 of body weight maximum packweight.

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 17:18:12 (ZULU)

For some photos of the HK-OICW, go to HKPRO.com, click on the link.

Looks like some neat technology, but a maintenance nightmare.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 17:25:57 (ZULU)

Unrelated subject.  Went up to Oklahoma this weekend to referee a little soiree with some WWII reenactors. Took me hours to rehydrate Sunday, from all the saliva lost Saturday.  Over 300 combatants, all with correct and mostly original small arms and ordnance. Original Garands, rebarrelled no later than '44, MP40's that WORK, oh mama....Running half-tracks and German tracked vehicles.  I ref'd the Allies as they grouped to push the Krauts out of buildings in France D-day plus 5 or so.  Can't tell what's going on unless you get right in there with them, and my ears are still ringing. Obviously, they were'nt using real grenades, but most built their own flash-bangs, and me ears are still ringing from eight hours of concussion and gunfire in close quarters.  

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 17:34:34 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 17:58:56 (ZULU)

b. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

e. If  guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

f. If guns cause crime, then pencils  cause misspelled words.

g. Free men do not ask permission to  bear arms.

h. If you don't know your rights you don't have  any.

i. Those who trade liberty for security have  neither.

j. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights  reserved.

k. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not  understand?

l. The Second Amendment is in place in case they  ignore the others.

m. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one  yesterday.

n. Guns only have two enemies: rust and  liberals.

o. Know guns, know peace and safety. No guns, no peace  nor safety.

p. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay  alive.

q. 911 - government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer.

r. Assault is a behavior, not a device.

s. Criminals love  gun control - it makes their jobs safer.

t. If guns cause crime,  then matches cause arson.

u. Only a government that is afraid of  its citizens tries to control

them.

v. You only have the rights you are  willing to fight for.

w. Enforce the "gun control laws" we have, don't make  more.

x. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create  slaves.

y. The American Revolution would never have happened  with gun control.

z. "...a government of the people, by the  people, for the people..."

Semper Primus!

Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
NY, - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 19:12:53 (ZULU)

Thanx,

AB

Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Ark. , U.S. of (Smile when you say that, Mister ) A. - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 21:06:10 (ZULU)

   Is it all

             A. Distance

             B. Terrain

             C. Urban or rural

   Anyone with insitght or opinion feel free to respond.

Thanks

Bill

Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 21:20:18 (ZULU)

The palm Exbal program only works with numeric keypad number entry, not the grafitti writing system.  I am now able to use the program fine.

The extra disk and compressed file I received with the desktop program was not needed for my operating system.

Thanks to Gerald for his prompt attention and for a nice product, both desktop and Palm.

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 21:55:54 (ZULU)

I just got off the phone with a nice lady at Remington.  She informed me that my LTR had been fired in the gallery and that it performed to factory accuracy specs of 1-1/2" at 100 yards.  It is now in final inspection and will be returned to me.

I'm NOT going to get angry.

I knew better and bought the thing anyway.

Shame on me.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 21:56:43 (ZULU)

This explanation makes sense to me, but is opposite to what I understand the ditty to advise.

Chris's problem: "During my 1k shoot, it seemed that when the sun was out down range (several seconds before the shot) and the firing line to about the 400 or 500 yard line stayed overcast, my bullet impacted quite a bit high(7 ring @ 12 on NRA 1K target), and when I adjusted for it (dropped 2 moa)and the range went completely overcast again, two in a row impacted low(8 ring @ 6).  I'm willing to chalk it up to slight charge errors or operator headspace and timing, but I wanted to see if any of ya had an opinion on this."

It seems to me that the problem and proposed solution are at odds with each other.  When the lights are up Chris is shooting high, and Charles is advocating adding more el (light up, sight up) to the sight!

So maybe the ditty is wrong (doubtful), or I misunderstand it?

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 22:27:00 (ZULU)

Wish every unit had the chance to choose from different rifles, and for what it is worth;

what type of target comes to mind, a .50 would be more apropiate than a .308 if you got to take out a hard target or if you got to overcome some degree of protection like bulletproof glass etc.

And area of operation, not just urban or rural, but also friendly or unfriendly terrain, can make you decide between different rifles, i can imagine if you want to keep the locals friendly due to politics that a silenced version is sometimes preferred over a supersonic stick, or a semi auto over a bolt, like in Kosovo, Bosnia (back in the days) or more recently Kabul and Israel.

the 2 euro cents again

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 22:31:34 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 22:39:24 (ZULU)

Remington LTR/GGG 20moa Base/Badger Rings/M1LR with GenII reticle

First try:

 Virgin Winchester Brass-Trimmed to 1.750 long-Flash hole deburred

 75 grain Hornady HPBT-24.5 grains W-748-OAL 2.250

 Groups = 3 to 5 inches

Second try:

 Mixed brass-woodchuck ammo

 55 grain Hornady SXSP-???????

 Groups = 1.75 to 2.5 inches

Third try:

 Factory Winchester 45 grain HP

 Groups = 3 to 4 inches

Fourth try:

 Factory Federal 55 grain FMJ

 Groups = 2 to 3 inches

Fifth try:

 Factory IMI 62 grain SS-109

 Groups = 3 to 4 inches

Mount, rings and action were tight.

The scope was switched to Andy's rifle and he shot sub moa with it.

Sand bags all around and holding tight.

No wind to speak of.

Cold out but this is Upstate New York and we're used to it.

Now the factory tells me the rifle is to spec.

I should have bought a Savage.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 23:41:00 (ZULU)

Kevin indicated problems with his LTR. Think I know the answer...you got it in the wrong caliber. Should be .308! Just kidding.

If it makes you feel any better my new custom .22/250 shot 2-3 inches the other day in testing. Looks like the scope may not be holding zero...hope that's it. Other than than I can trade it for something with a larger bore that shoots "improved cylinder"...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 01:20:28 (ZULU)

They were all I shot prairie dogging in Montana last year and I didn't feel under gunned.  They give excellent practice reading the wind in the hills and draws when reaching past 400 yards.  Good luck.

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
Bartlesville, OK, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 01:50:03 (ZULU)

Sell the LTR and get a DPMS Sweet16

As far as gear goes - hey look at the Canadian SH*T - room for four (yes that was 4) 30rd mags - and made out of some sort of cotton swill - and this is an apparent improvement of our 82 pattern webbing ???  SOEGEAR, LBT, and Eagle...

Kevin of the Great White North <kevin.cantac@shaw.ca>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 01:59:32 (ZULU)

Oh heck! It's a .223!, should be a shoe in for .75 groups. 75 grainers are too heavy for that barrel but 55 grain SX should group. IF not.. 55 grain V-max would with about 25.5 of VARGET. SX's might be a triffle soft to shoot in a 1 in 9 twist. Sometimes the rifling will tear at the jacket if you try to spin it too fast. I've seen em when they would throw a vapor trail of lead and that's not good.  IF you can look carefully at the muzzle and see if it's OK and free of dents and defects.  IT should do 60 grainers OK and up to about 69 would be under 1.5". IF worse comes to worse run a cone shaped dremmel tool as straight as you can about .05 or so up the muzzle, clean it real good and see how it shoots then. YOu can always have it recrowned and often this alone will do it. I have one I crowned that way that shoots same hole with 55's. Be sure (I know you have already checked the screws for tightness.) IF you have a bore sighter put it in the bore and carefully remove the stock. If the sighter has moved more than half a square you may have action bedding problems of some kind. (This isn't likely with that system. )

If there is no ignition problem brought on by cold weather and ball powder you may have to say the barrel just isn't capable but it too is unlikely. You could possibly lap the barrel some if that turns out to be the case but it should not be neccessary. A couple hundred rounds in the new one may change your luck also.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 02:09:05 (ZULU)

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 02:17:46 (ZULU)

Has anyone tried Hornady 168 grain match ammo in their ar 10's? Wondering  if its as accurate as the FED 168 or Black Hills 168. Also if anyone has shot the 168 Amax rounds.  THANKS Doug

Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 02:21:25 (ZULU)

As a last ditch effort you might want to bed the action. My 300WM 700P used to throw shots and the groups were larger than I liked. I pulled the action and saw that it didn't fit well at all. I had my smith, Jeff Hicks, bed it and the groups shrunk and flyers disappeared. Those HS stock aren't one size fits all. They need to be bedded. Just a thought if you want to try to save it.

*DISCLAIMER* Before anyone flames me about the HS stocks and "theirs shoots great and it's not bedded" I just want to say that I understand that and some do but not all and with Kevin"s problem it might be the solution.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 02:45:41 (ZULU)

a.  Do they last longer?

b.  Are they more accurate?

c.  Easier to clean?

d.  All of the above?

e.  None or some of the above?

Not alot of info out there.  Or I'm not looking in the right places.

Thanks if you can help.

Rambo

Larry <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mountain, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 03:11:16 (ZULU)

aka. Larry from Kings Mountain.

Have you shot the SPR much?? My shooting partner this weekned shot an SPR, and it cleaned up with two freekin' patches, and he shot a 199(15x) at 500.  Only one guy beat him, and that was with a 17lbs 6BR with a Machined aluminum brick for a scope mount and a BR trigger.  It rode on bags like a BR rifle also.  I'd say the SPR's chrome lined barrel was pretty damn accurate.  Titan, you around for comment??

In AR and AK's, the chrome is pretty inaccurate, but lasts forever.  I figure it'll last a long ass time with an SPR also, but they haven't been out long enough for anyone to get enough rounds down the tube to know.

Thanks to all for the input so far on my 1K flyers.  I've heard the lights up, sights up.  I had figured 20" with a scope is pretty excessive but it could be that simple.  I'm wondered if the sun heating the ground down range brought on a thermal(would have to be a hell of a thermal), but the mirage at the target board didn't change, and the grass really didn't either.  I now the trajectory is higher, but my windage was uneffected and I left the 3.5moa dialed in.  I'm still grasping at straws.  I guess it's possible that I had some go high/low at 600 but didn't notice it as much due to the shorter distance.  

I need to take better notes but I didn't wanna screw the other relay on time, as we ran a strait 66 minutes for both relays.  The price I pay for wanting to place well,,, I gave up a great learning expierence I guess.  Next time I'll not make this mistake.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 04:01:14 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 04:45:52 (ZULU)

Just finished the barrel breakin bit and zeroed the scope.  I then shot two groups of .4" & .6" @ 100yds with Fed Gold Medal Match 168gr.  This was all done in one day.  I'll see what happends next weekend.

I'm already thinking of getting a verticle grip stock either from H-S or McMillan.  The rifle seems like it weights a ton.  Feels like a crew served weapon.  FN says it's the same barrel that goes on their M240 machine gun (M60 replacement) that they sell to the military.

Well, thanks for the come back.  Over.....

Rambo

Larry <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mountain, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 05:05:04 (ZULU)

Regarding your poor shooting LTR, try some Black Hills 68 or 69 gr. reman. ammo in it, and you should have sub moa groups. Like Bill Rogers said, the 75 grainers are too heavy for the 1-9 twist.

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 05:18:30 (ZULU)

Usually, only two things will hang up a round in a clean chamber.  Excessive headspace and excessive LOAL.  You indicated in your post that your cartridge length (seating depth) met with your approval.  That would leave headspace as the culprit.  (Double check cartridge length with a smoked/dychem round to make sure you are not jamming the bullet into the lands!)  If you persist in reloading, you really should purchase an RCBS or Stoney Point headspace gauge.  The SP gauge attaches to your caliper and has much greater utility (IMHO!) than the RCBS gauge that measures relative length plus or minus to a fixed measurement.  

If the cartridge chambers hard ... bolt closes with difficulty requiring several pounds of force to lock.... HS is too long.  Back off the FL die about a half turn and try another one.  If you are cutting/shaving brass off the case head and the rifle is not an AR15 type, HS is too long, back the die off a bit.  ARs eat brass until well broken in.  Factory ammo HS varies greatly, most a bit under minimum.  The first time you fire the round, the case will "fire-form" to your rifle's chamber, removing some ... notice I said SOME!.. of the metric variations, making it easier to reload and size.  Most of us neck size only for our precision rifles after the first firing.  Slight resistance on closing the bolt is OK.... I'm guessing a pound of force to lock bolt... guys- comments??  You can make a chamber cast of your chamber and actually measure the HS of your rifle.  If you have a custom rifle, your gunsmith should be able to tell you your HS.  For .308, minimum HS is 1.630".  My rifles are chambered at 1.6305".  When you size new brass, give it a bit of room to fire-form.. maybe sizing to 1.629 or 1.6295 if you have a minimum chamber.  Don't panic with the numbers. You have "X" amount of space in the chamber.  Anything above the "X" leaves the ass hanging out too far.  Under, it's a roll.  Too short and your case head comes off as the case stretches to fill the space. Hope this helps a bit.  Be safe.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 05:18:35 (ZULU)

It ain't always the way Charles explains it.

Now I've been told that I don't follow the rules, I prefer to think "I didn't help to write the rules so they don't apply to me!"

In all seriousness, when I look at a nice, bright, well lit target that sucker is absolutely glowing, dancing aroud, and has fuzzy edges. When I get a nice flat light that sucker shrinks down into a real sharp dot. Heavy over cast will usually fuzz it out again. Starting in bright light with some nasty boiling mirage, I have had 1 1/2 moa change when the clouds rolled in. Then again unless I mis understand the saying I am, as usual, an exception to the rule.

Oh yeah, wifie and I will be blessed with child number two sometime tomorrow morning via c-sect....wish us luck.

Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
On BABY WATCH in SW PA, USA, - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 05:19:06 (ZULU)

Good luck to you and your wife, I had my second son 4 years ago, it has truly been a joy every since. That little guy amazes me daily....

I should finally get out this weekend and shoot my McBros "tactical" .50 that George and Eric built up for me a couple of months ago. The beast is beautiful!  

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 05:58:26 (ZULU)

Hornady Match 168 gr, my tac rifle loves the stuff, shoots under 1" at 300m ( 20" Heym Barrel)

Marco, great to see you the otherday and nice to meet your mates, Im feeling better now !! looking forward to Scotland, we should have some fun, let me know when you go to Sennelager again and if im finnished with this Black hole, bottom less pit of a house, I'll come along, how do I join this Euro NRA then?

Did I tell you that the company I work for also has the contract foe the range targetry and are based in Sennelager?

Thanks for the Gadget and anti fog kit, much appreciated,

Scotland is 3rd August (maybe I can get away earlier) to 11 th August, thats the first full week, and Ill be hopefully going over in Last June week too)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 11:24:47 (ZULU)

Got this off another board, but believe it has been confirmed already:

I am writing this because I feel every Firearms owner should know this story.

I placed an order for a Dell notebook computer on February 13 on line with Dell. I was given a tentative delivery date of February 21st. I was watching the order through the Dell on line tracking system; I also opted for the automatic email notification of when the machine was to be shipped. Well the 21st came and went, I am a Pistolsmith I know things can happen. I made a phone call on the 25th, did a voice mail message for my salesman to get back to me and I was looking for the delivery date. The 25th came and went with no callback. On the 26th I placed another call this time to cancel the order. After a few hours I got a call back, with this amazing reason for the delay. It seems someone in Dell had already canceled my order, when I asked why I was told Dell was afraid I was going to use the machine for illegal purposes. When I asked why someone would think that I was told it was because of the name of my business “Weigand Combat Handguns Inc.”. Because I am involved in firearms I might be doing something illegal. Now keep in mind I was never called or informed of this decision the order was just canceled. Many of you know me personally and know I run my business about as squeaky clean as possible. In addition being the President of the American Pistolsmiths Guild I am under additional scrutiny as to how I run my business, if I am not clean how can I be the President of an organization that promotes just that! I was informed by a Dell supervisor not long after all of this the reason I was refused was because of their post September 11th policy of screening buyers.

I would like to respectfully ask the firearms community to do the following. If you intended to buy a Dell and because of this letter you do not, email Dell and let them know why. Feel free to distribute this account to all you know in the Firearms community, I think they need to know. I for one am sick and tired of people assuming just because we are involved with firearms that we are doing something illegal. I also do not believe Dell deserves our business if this is how they intend to treat us.

God Bless

Jack Weigand

President

American Pistolsmiths Guild Inc.

Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 11:56:19 (ZULU)

You're makin' me wanna throw this POS out the window now... I cancelled AOL due to crap like this, and now I'll have to boycott Dell.  Looks like someone's trying to bail out K Mart too, doubt it's Rosies fat ass.

Steve,

Congrats and hope all goes well today.  C section is THE WAY TO GO.  Schedule it out like a dentist appoinment, and it has other fringe bennies also...

Larry,

Give it some time to settle down a bit and you'll really like that rifle.  I would consider switching over to the 175's, as I haven't seen a 308 keep a 168 supersonic at 1K yet.(I'm still pretty new at 1K though, that may change)  If you don't plan on going long, forget it.  Oh, and that stock is awsome, I'd keep it.  You will most likely not find a quality stock that weighs less than the HS that's on it.  The rifles weight comes from that #6 barrel contour.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 12:27:31 (ZULU)

Don't shoot me down in flames fellas as I have no, I repeat, no experience at shooting beyond 400yds, so what I am about to say is only what I have read and picked up from others.

When shooting over long distances (I think 1000yds would qualify) I have heard that if the sun is shineing onto a proportion of the ground it will heat the air and cause it to rise, in effect creating a moving mass of air.  Wind is also a moving mass of air, and like wind, rising air applies a force to the bullet causing it to strike higher than expected.  When the sun goes in, the air stops being heated to the same degree and therefore stops rising (as much).  Fire again in overcast conditions and the bullet will strike lower than when the sun was out.

I have also been told that the effect can occur when there is only a relatively small sunny spot along the bullet's line of flight.

Feel free to correct me (as know you would anyway ;-))

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 14:32:32 (ZULU)

 I have had the same thing happen to me and have asked the question and no one seems to have a good answer. I have been trying to track it for the last year or so and have come to the conclusion that it may be caused by mirage. Your target is not actually where your aiming due to and optical illusion.

 There may be just enough of a distrotion with the bright light to "Optically" move the target. I only have problems with this at long ranges so it isn't much but gets worse as you move on out.

 I know for a fact when I have a bad mirage it will shoot high or high right or high left depending on the mirage. I can't come up with any other explaination for it. Maybe Trigger 50 would have some clue as to what causes this.

 I used to think it was just me or the gun or whatever until I was teaching a class and one of the guys said that he had been out shooting at 400yds and his rifle shot at least 4" higher than the day before at 400yds. He changed the sights and then went back out the next day and was that much low. As we got to taking he had said that it was a real bright sunny day and he had wanted to get in some long range work before it turned cold the next day.

 I know that its "NOT" a given that the gun will shoot higher on a bright day all the time but when it does it "IS" a bright sunny day. It may be a combination of things as far as atmospheric conditions go.

 How about it Rick, Gooch or Dean any of you guys run into this problem or is it just me and a couple of others????

Kevin..

 W-748 is probably to fast for that heavy of a bullet I would try a slower powder. My son shoots the heavy bullets in competition and uses VV powder I could check with him if your interested. Try the 69s and the 60s but don't expect great groups with the 69s there not known for grouping well. But still should group well under an inch in a bolt gun.

 Like some of the guys said check the bolt handle and check the fit into the stock. I had a 25-06 HB that wouldn't shoot under 1.7" and when I loosened the front stock screw the barrel raised up out of the channel like a cobra. The action was bound up in the stock due to a high spot. After cleaning up the stock and grinding down the high spots it went to a .6 rifle. Good Luck!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 14:50:45 (ZULU)

FO

out  

Foward observer <aglatz@russell-stanley.com>
Randolph, NJ, 07869 - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 15:18:48 (ZULU)

(Our Blessed Lady of Kevlar, don't fail me now....)

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 17:34:11 (ZULU)

I use a ALICE Large with frame.  The kidney belt and shoulder straps are special built by Tactical Tailor and the ruck has been modified by them too.  The pouches all have fastex buckles, the stress points have been reinforced and a carry handle has been added.

This rig is as comfortable as it is ever going to get.  The only downside is that you can't wear LBE while humping a large ALICE with frame.  The old solution used to be to drape the LBE over the ruck and carry the whole mess.  This allows the ruck to be fitted right and you don't wear holes in your back.

The only way to condition yourself for such activity is to do it.  It's part of my lunch hour program.  I get odd looks when I go out for my noontime walk with a large rucksack but I explain that I'm a backpacker and I want to stay in shape.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 19:10:46 (ZULU)

I thought the story as I first received it was bogus.  I did some research.  It is not.  See http://www.jackwigand.com

I was within hours of buying a Dell system.  It's email time.

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 19:29:45 (ZULU)

took me a bit to find this on there web site.  Remington makes a coverstion of almost any scope to NV but the way it is designed it changes your hold of the weapon totaly.  take a look...

http://www.remingtonle.com/access/vision.htm

looks like a good Idea but bad execution?

Any ideas on other products?

Andrew aka FO

Andrew <aglatz@russell-stanley.com>
Randolph, NJ, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 20:04:12 (ZULU)

 Dell: There aint nothing wrong with them a good old fashion axe handle wont fix. I find it fits most of my reprogramming needs. Their management are the kind of kids you want to love and caress with a football bat (yes I know, that's F#$ked up but hey that's life.)

 I use a large alice on a frame (long outings) and a small alice (no frame) day trips. If it is a high speed overnight job I use a small alice with frame.

 Screw load bearing equipment. I use a tactical mesh vest (pilot survival type) It has a lot of really useful pockets for GPS, compass, comm, etc. and a convenient holster sewn right on for my 9mm. The spare clip pouch is sewn on the inside so I dont accidently lose it. It is way more comfortable and easier to move in.

Cabelas sells a close match to the mil spec item but a surplus store is your best bet.

 For a field expedient shooting stand nothing beats a G.I. sock filled full of popcorn kernels. I've found this to be a cheap reliable compromise between beanie baby guts and longer lasting than rice.

 My ghillie is made from an XL pair of green cotton coveralls covered with varying lengths and shades of burlap. The overall color is yuck with a hint of that's nasty. Effective as hell. bush hat covered with burlap tops it all off. I look like a six fot 2 inch cousin it.

Festus.

festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
way up north, w, and moose are scared - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 20:16:15 (ZULU)

Hogs, I am proud to announce that at 10:27 today child number two was born, an 8lb 5oz - 20" tall little girl. Mother and daughter are doing well.

~Wish me luck fellas, I'm outnumbered 3 to 1 now.

Charles, I did realize that little ditty was for our "blessed iron sights". I curse them almost every time I see something goofy happen between the rear aperature and the impact area while looking through 'em (which happens all too often). I have to think the mirage induced belly dancing target is the most plausible cause for Chris' "flyers".

Steve ~hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
freezing cold up here again, Proud new daddy, - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 20:19:39 (ZULU)

In no time at all she'll be going off to college.

My little girl is there now and she was born just yesterday.

Enjoy...

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 20:55:13 (ZULU)

Duster <mcgrath@tc3net.com>
- Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 20:55:53 (ZULU)

A proud moment indeed !!!

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., US of A - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 20:59:55 (ZULU)

Congratulations!!!  May you all stay healthy and happy.  Will drink a toast to her later this evening.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 21:50:39 (ZULU)

Looks like a perfect score...  I'm down 2 to 1 now, I'll not try again.  Glad to hear that Mom and the wee one are doing fine.  Tonight, when I'm going to bed at 2130 and knowing that I'll sleep through till 0530, I'll remember why 1 is enough and be happy with what I have. ;)) Hats off to ya sir....

Pat and Jon,

I was thinking of a combination of the mirage and Updraft theorys yesterday.  Is it possible a warmer ground causes a slight thermal which in turn raises the mirage. (don't figure it would take much, but the sun was only up for the last 400 to 500 yards)  The only trouble I have with that is the mirage continued at a right to left flow, and didn't increase or decrease.  I suppose the mass of air could have been moving up and continued to blow left at a constant wind speed. As a matter of fact, I may have seen it but attributed the change to barrel heat. Also the sun was only up for half trajectory.  I would think 20" is a bit much in only 500 yards, but I realy don't know.  A combination of a bunch if little things maybe... How the hell does anyone shoot MOA at 1K....

As much as I don't wish this on anyone else, it's reassuring to see it happens to others.  

Thanks for the input as of yet, and congrats again Steve.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 23:42:24 (ZULU)

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