Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:02:50 (ZULU)

I never made the reference, Steve Uhall, hockeyref from SC.  Sheesh, I call myself a livid hockeyfan, wingers rule!!.   I hope it works out well.  Don't worry, I'll still make those barrels, but from a different address, eh!  You made my day with that barrel, Steve.  It was fun, for a change...  

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:03:24 (ZULU)

Is the Badger / GA Precision booth the official Rosterfarian LZ?

Will there be adult beverages offered if we know the password?

Alternate LZs?

-------------------------

For those interested, I will be teaching the following classes in the main casino after the show each evening:

"High-Speed-Low-Drag CQB Wallet Clearing Techniques".

"Creating the Undetectable Crap Table Hide".

"Slot Machine Ballistics: Dope 'em - Dial 'em - Dump 'em".

"Reading Sports Betting Video Screens at Extreme Long Distances".

Thanks,

Fred

Fred <ohc1@pacbell.net>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:03:48 (ZULU)

Okay - Andre and I have conversed offline and got some issues ironed out. Andre has agreed to replace the lights that were shot out and all may go forward from here.

Hogs - this place is good for debate, learning, chatting, and an occasional bitch slap when needed. Let's just all remember to be good folksen.

thanks,

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:04:24 (ZULU)

I now have ProEars Pro Mag(npr26) and hadPro Ears Slim(npr21) they both work great lowering loud noises while letting regular sound thru The problem I have with them is that they do not seal tightly around my ears like regular muffs. I talked with ProEars about this and they did not understand the problem. The best way is to try different brands before you buy.

Charlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
Ann Arbor, Mi, Usa - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:24:01 (ZULU)

Thomas in 29 stumps,

Been waiting 3 years for mine now.(oh boy, here comes the flak from the roster hogs)

If he ever picks up the phone I am backing out.

Anybody want it?

Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:53:52 (ZULU)

Wondering how folks clean out behind the action bolt locking lugs.  I drag a large, dry patch around back there with a plastic pick (no solvent to drip into the action) but it never seems to get real clean.  Must be another way.

Fed 210M primers:

In case anyone is interested - just switched from CCI 200 primers to Fed 210M.  POI dropped 1/2 MOA @ 200 yds.

Rambling:

Wish I heard about the loc-tite thing sooner.  Riding Harleys for most of thirty years put me in the habit of using the blue on most everything.  Guess we'll see what happens when the time comes.

Obeyed the first law of teaching in the getto today.  Came home in one piece.

Thanks for all the insight.

Teacher

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Too Far East, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 02:45:21 (ZULU)

Well, against better judgement and in the interest of experimentation I ordered a Night Force 20moa one piece base for the new Winnie. Ve shall see how it does with the Badger rings! Winchester, Leupold, Badger, Night Force, McMillan, Harris, Undude Sling. Damn, folks gonna think I made this thing up at a scrap yard!

Combat Missions reminds me too much of Survivor. I was never in the service but I tell you that we did better maneuvers and ambushes when I was playing army in the woods behind the house as a youngun.

LOL on CDC!

Doesn't play well with others"___________Mrs. Samms (first grade teacher)

My standard report card sentence was "talks too much"!

Time for cereal, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 03:19:29 (ZULU)

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 03:45:07 (ZULU)

keith <bucklins@earthlink.net>
Waynesboro, va, usa - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 04:57:50 (ZULU)

There are a couple of companies, Sinclair International (http://www.sinclairintl.com/) and Midway USA (http://www.midwayusa.com/) to name a few that sell tools for the job.  Basically they are rods that hold dental packings cotton rolls that will wipe out the bolt raceways and lug recesses.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 05:06:35 (ZULU)

Three years... THREE YEARS... that's nuttin'!

I knew an ol' timer that ordered one, and his grandson just took delivery ;)))

-

D. Wiede... on cleaning behind the lugs?

Take the standard "Male person's scientific approach to dirt"... if you can't see it, it ain't there... but if you have to clean it, Midway, and Sinclair have cleaning tools that are a plastic rod with a cross cut in the front that take a tampon like mop about 1 1/4" long, the you twist it behind the lugs... does a pretty good job... also a degreaser like "Gun Clean", and compressed gas (like the cans you get at the photostore" work well too.

What you teach... where you teach it?

-

Keith...

Varget doesn't burn dirty, it is one of the cleanest burning powders there is.  There are a lot of variables in loading... try to narrow them down.

Don't be disappointed if you don't get perfect in the beginning... there is an art to it.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 11:06:17 (ZULU)

I'm on my way to the SHOT Show in a couple hours.

Ah, the Mother of all gun shows.....

Hopefully my M1LR will be waiting for me with the new reticle and Kill Flash when I return.

See ya!

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 12:52:49 (ZULU)

Glad to hear the M25 is a keeper. Ha! Like I didn't know that already. What mount are you using? Never heard of one that would jam, because of scope mounts. I got the BPT mount on mine. Never a problem.

You might be able get a couple ejector springs, and do some trimming one coil at a time, and see if that changes the angle that the brass leaves the reciever. If it doesn't help, you still got the original spring to re-install. Also, a different recoil spring might make a big difference too.

Later,

Bill B

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 15:55:31 (ZULU)

to all that drop in on the SHOT show, enjoy, I sure wish I would be there this year too. But to much work in the new biddness. The Paul Company should have some good deals on Parker Hale cleaning Rod´s.

Picked up 1200 rounds of .223 green tip with double core and 1000 rounds of 7.62 today. Come tommorow afternoon it will be gone.

I will run a G-36 and G-3 ZF (scoped) shoot with the Reserves tommorow. I have a 300 Meter Range and the KD targets. Should be fun if the weather holds.

Pete L do you read this ??????  beats sitting in a dark forest at night does it ? But YOU have to paint the house !  Harrr !

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 16:18:52 (ZULU)

I have purchased and watched the American Gunsmithing Institute video on Glass Bedding and think I understand the process as they explain it.  With the video came a Brownells Acraglas Gel kit.  However, the video only detailed the process for a full bedding to include the barrel channel.  From the commentary on the site and what I have read, the barrel should remain free floating.

The questions I have are:

1.  What is a safe degreaser to use that won't damage the parkerized finish or the stock?

2.  How far forward of the recoil lug should I glass, if at all?  Or just the receiver parts that are currently contacting the stock?

3.  I have heard some complaints about the Rem recoil lug.  Any benefit to replacing, and if so can I do it and what are the recommended part(s)?

4.  Any advantage besides convenience to using spray release agent (which I do not have) versus the brush on agent that came in the kit?

5.  I have heard some commentary on mixing a metallic component in with the glass.  Why is this and would it help me?

6.  How do you keep glass from oozing up the barrel channel where you don't want it?

7.  How much clearance should the barrel have in the channel?  The barrel is not centered in the barrel channel and one side is so tight that a dollar bill barely fits through.  It has been suggested that 2 business cards is the right amount.  Will the glass bedding raise the barrel enough to get the proper clearance?

8.  What do you recommend to dye the barrel channel with once I sand it down to obtain the proper clearance?

9.  What else am I missing or do I need to know?

Thanks for any advice and suggestions you might have.

'Lito I know that you said you would email me responses to my questions, but thought other newbies might benefit from a discussion on the board and advice you and others might provide.

William M.

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 17:01:13 (ZULU)

A couple days ago you mentioned having a small survival kit on the LCE. What would you put in it??

Bolt:

Do you have your webb gear reconfigured yet? What's the final mag count??

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 17:39:51 (ZULU)

  I think it was a good move on your part to let Andrea back in. In my opinion he was not flaming anyone, only expressing his opinion and trying to defend or explain it. (Like it or not) Like has been said so many times, its not always easy to get the right meaning of what is written.

  We don't all have to agree with each other and as long as there are no personal flames you shouldn't be thrown out. I know Pete did give a warning and maybe in the future it will help people to know you guys mean business. Well done!!! Just my opinion.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 17:41:47 (ZULU)

M-24 SNIPER rifle, current US Army special operations sniper weapons system. Complete with issue optics, built by Army special operations armorer, $3,300. 805-896-6212

Have a good one fellas,

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 17:50:04 (ZULU)

I have the data sheet in front of me, didn't get to check for the scan as I was on the ice last night.

75 grain bullets:

#2279 BTHP Ballistic coefficient - .395

#22792 A-MAX Ballistic coefficient - .435

There is some load data also. I will check for the scan as soon as I get a chance.

Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Having a Monday, in South West PA, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 18:47:49 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6177-2002Jan31.html

"What specifically are we to do during the gestation periods, before the weapons of Iran, Iraq, and North Korea come to term?"  In this take on the same question, William Buckley appears to be asking for a little less talk and a lot more action.  He'll get it.

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley020102.shtml

Saudi politics 101.  This is fundamental to all that's going on and this is a good presentation.

http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_comment/nr_comment020102.shtml

State sponsors and facilitators of terrorism are attacking Bush's state of the union speech.  The Bush people aren't backing down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5968-2002Jan31.html

General background on the domestic security threat and the administration's approach to dealing with it.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020201-73582983.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 19:09:48 (ZULU)

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 19:14:02 (ZULU)

Not really a discussion for an open forum....  email me at medicjim86@hotmail.com, maybe an informal disussion group via email...I have a few thoughts on the subject.

President Bush asked for 4000 hours of volunteer service over a lifetime.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 19:27:14 (ZULU)

I wouldn't have thought you could miss that connection after the emails we've exchanged on the JB paste. Now that I have one of your barrels and before I decide defile it with that stuff are you gonna let me in on your findings??? I remember about a month or so ago you scoped another hogs barrel and saw a "tell tale sign" of abrasive use. Don't recall that you elaborated on it.

John Holliger function  tested it with 77 smk's and 90 vld's, said the groups at 100 yards with his "standard loads" were decent but the range was too short to be conclusive. His loads are VERY similar to where I hoped to end up so..... He figured that a couple 3 shot and clean cycles should be all the beak in it'll need. I'll keep you posted on how she does.

Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
waithing for the weather to arrive, in South West PA, Just north of By Gawd!, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 19:56:56 (ZULU)

>... From the commentary on the site and what I have read, the barrel should remain free floating.

1.  What is a safe degreaser to use that won't damage the parkerized finish or the stock?

Paint thinner is very good, and won't effect stock finishes (except hand rubbed oil finishes)... don't slop it around... just clean the places inside the stock that will receive the glass.

2.  How far forward of the recoil lug should I glass, if at all?  Or just the receiver parts that are currently contacting the stock?

As I have said before, I started out glassing the first 1 1/2" of the barrel (about 35 years ago), but don't anymore.  Now I glass from the lug, back... sometimes just the front of the action from the lug to the mag well, depending on the kind of stock it is.

I find it works better for me, but it is arguable (and I won't argue it!)... as this glassing thing is an art, and if you ask ten 'smiths, you will get thirteen different answers.

There are probably guys that will argue it the other way.

3.  I have heard some complaints about the Rem recoil lug.  Any benefit to replacing, and if so can I do it and what are the recommended part(s)?

NO!.. there is no benefit to you in replacing it... there is a real benefit to replacing it to the 'smith... the price of the replacement, plus the barrel has to be set back, re-threaded, and re-chambered, and the stock will have to be machined to accept the lug.  If you are getting a new barrel, then it is an option if you want (but it won't improve anything).

4.  Any advantage besides convenience to using spray release agent (which I do not have) versus the brush on agent that came in the kit?

Yes... the spray will get into places that the brush on can't... also the spray is a different stuffie, and it workie more betterer.

5.  I have heard some commentary on mixing a metallic component in with the glass.  Why is this and would it help me?

This can be an advantage, or not.  Standard stocking glass has about a 1% shrinkage factor, and to the beginner, this can be a life saver, cuz the action will pop out easily afterwards.  The metal based glass (doesn't make any difference which one), has 0% shrinkage, and it is a bitch to remove the action from the stock, because there is no clearence.  As to accuracy, there is no noticable difference.

6.  How do you keep glass from oozing up the barrel channel where you don't want it?

You can't... it will go any place it can, and all over the place... make a clay dam at the place where you want it to stop, but lay in 3M masking tape in the barrel channel, cuz it will run over the dam... also put masking tape around the sides of the stock, and in the mag well, cuz the glasscan get into this places too.  Assume the worst, and use lots of tape, and lots of clay!!

7.  How much clearance should the barrel have in the channel?  The barrel is not centered in the barrel channel and one side is so tight that a dollar bill barely fits through.  It has been suggested that 2

business cards is the right amount.  Will the glass bedding raise the barrel enough to get the proper clearance?

No... the glass bedding won't do anything for that... it will just ooze out of where things are tight.

Do this... Taking the 3M masking tape, lay a piece across the front of the fore-end about 3" or 4" from the front of the stock, some where near the front sling swivel... then tape the trigger guard in place under the stock.

Then take the STRIPPED barreled action (without the trigger, no magazine, etc, and put it in the stock with the rear screw only... just a little snug.  look at the front of the stock... move the barrel into the center of the channel, so the space is the same on both sides, and the bottom... (it will be more than 2 business cards)

(you want the barrel centered in the channel, not to have to file the channel to fit the off-set barrel!)

the off set is caused by irrigularities on the surface of the front of the aluminum cradle in the stock... when you look at this, you will see it is a pretty rough machining... so of it maybe due to a slight misalignment of the aluminum block at the time of manufacture...

Get a dremel tool, or a round ball file for a 1/4" drill, and start cutting aluminum away from the side that is pushing the action off center... do a little, and try it... repeat until you can center the barerel (so the space is equal on the sides, and bottom of the channel), with a littls play so the barrel can droop a little down.

Now start placing pieces of masking tape across the first one, and build up a cradle of tape, until you have a thickness that will settle the barrel into a position in the center of the channel...

What you want to wind up wiht, is the action held by the back screw, and the barrelsupported by the tape cradel in the front, and the action not touching the aluminum bloac in front of the mag well... you can check this with a piece of paper.

8.  What do you recommend to dye the barrel channel with once I sand it down to obtain the proper clearance?

The stuff is black inside, so no dye is necessary, but if you center the barrel, you won't have to sand anything.

9.  What else am I missing or do I need to know?

Probably most of your marbles for reading this site;))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 20:08:22 (ZULU)

right, time to let the mut out of the jeep for a crap.. Duh! there's that word again, now you got me at it, she'll be biting me next.

Torsten, I can't paint anything yet, first I have to strip the old wall paper off, fit new windows, tiles, bathrooms and kitchen, finnish extension(and start it)and all that before April 1st when we move in, looks like my time is pretty well accounted for over the next months,and the wife turned my down on my suggestion for the colour scheme in our bedroom, British DPM cammo, damn ! I only get time for hunting when Im away at work, and whats wrong with sitting in the dark woods all night? Its my idea of fun!

Was out allnight last night, I could hear pigs and one was circling the stand I was up, but the damn wind was blowing and it swirls around in that particular spot, the old hog was very carefull not to show him self under the moonlight and stayed in the thickets not giving me a shot and as soon as his nose confirmed his suspisions he was gone. Damn I hate the wind and I wish these damn pigs weren't so bloody nocturnal, because stalking them is more fun, but a bitch to do in darkness,

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 21:55:23 (ZULU)

I am loading a light fast load in my .308, 110gr Hornady V-Max.  The buttet is very short so I will be nowhere near the max OAL.  

On my 175MK loads I have aprox .250" contact between bullet and the neck of the case at 2.815 OAL.

My question is: Is there a minimum bullet seating depth (bullet to neck contact) that any of you start out with on new loads. My OAL is going to be determined by the ammount I seat the bullet into the case and I am not sure where to start.

Any help will be mucho appreciated

Dave  

Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 23:27:30 (ZULU)

Jerry

Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 23:49:30 (ZULU)

Thanks

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 23:52:19 (ZULU)

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 00:05:19 (ZULU)

any one got a Mcmillan GPH stock(General Purpose Hunting the one the Marines used to use) in woodland cammo for a S/A Rem 700 laying around they don't mind parting with, I need one for a little project. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 00:05:45 (ZULU)

By now the iron is hot and I hold it on our offending screw a minute or so and hey presto, screw comes out easy enough.

You should have seen the look of disbelief on the guys face when I handed him his prize possession back without a mark on it and screw loose. Imagine doing that with half the guys on here, you have em storming the basement to rescue their shooter.

We've chuckled about that poor guys facial expressions ever since.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 00:27:40 (ZULU)

Bruce Robinson comes through! Just recieved my Mil-Dot License plate from Bruce. As advertised and super neat. I may frame it for my office. The added bonus was a cute little sticker with it that said;

"...got mildots?".

Had a chance to handle a Kelbly Hunter Class bench rest gun, smithed by Meiers, in .30/44MM. Gary is shooting 125 grain BIB bullets and scoring in the .1's consistently. Interestingly, in Hunter class the short .30's are outshooting the 6MM PPC pretty consistently. He's headed to the Bench Rest Nationals, at Whittington Center, this year.

Great, now there is something else to add to the want list...

Enjoy the SHOT Show, for those that are attending.

Took a fall today and landed on my wrist. Needless to say the wrist is back in the support and pain killers are in effect. Bit of a set back, but not to bad.

Have a great weekend, all.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR , USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 00:42:00 (ZULU)

tks MARIUS for the privelidge !

BROWN ,G. MACGREGOR <brownc@kos.net>
BATTERSEA, ONTARIO, CANADA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 01:26:18 (ZULU)

thomas schumacher <schmud0811@aol.com>
29 palms, california, united states - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 03:43:52 (ZULU)

I need the foolowing Tactical Shooter back issues if anyone can help me out:

1998: January, March, April, June, July, August, and September.

1999: January, March, June, July, August, September, November, and

December.

2000: May

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 03:50:23 (ZULU)

I need the following Tactical Shooter back issues if anyone can help me out:

1998: January, March, April, June, July, August, and September.

1999: January, March, June, July, August, September, November, and

December.

2000: May

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 03:50:40 (ZULU)

I teach high school science "deep in the heart of Baltimore".  Teach biol all the time (my "subtle" approach works especiallly well on ninth graders)and usually physics.  Right now its bio/chem.  Recognized my calling late in life an got a biol degree.  The school's population's 'bout 1500 and the getto part fills the need for high levels of excitement - can't believe I get paid to have this much fun.  The down side is that admin etc. have their heads in a real dark place.

Paul

thanks for the loc-tite tip.  Now I don't have to loose any sleep over that one.

Tony

Noticed your survival kit is equipped in case you "get lucky" - ever pay off?

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 04:00:52 (ZULU)

The consensus is growing that Winchester has better out-of-the-box barrels and quality control.  

Opinions on the above claims vary widely.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 04:02:32 (ZULU)

CDC has a good point in current quality control issues. Winchester probably has better out of the box QC and quality that the current Remingtons. That being said, I sold my .223 Stealth (Boltster just rolled his eyes) and am building a .22/250 custom on a older Rem 700 short action. I decided to use Rem 700's and want all my rifles to be of the same pattern.

Frankly, I'm no longer satisfied with factory offerings.

CDC is correct in his assessment. The shooter is the weak link. Buy the best you can afford and shoot the crap out of it...then build your dream rifle!

Please note, I AM NOT trying to get a Rem vs. Win thread going again. Both are good solid rifles. Your choice...

Buy the best optics, rings and bases you can and move forward from there...

Semper Fi,

Wes

P.S. We finish my .22/250 next Monday. Chris, STILL ahead of your project by 4 weeks!

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 05:05:24 (ZULU)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 05:30:42 (ZULU)

Wes...

Did your fall set your shooting back any?

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 06:48:29 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 14:07:20 (ZULU)

Pete Lincoln,

That was not a very nice thing to do, pretending to grind on a high-dollar rig;-)  I'll bet it was worth a few chuckles though.....

Thomas,

Get a Savage 10FP, adjust the trigger and shoot.  If you are really concerned with the stock, you can get a comparable stock to those on the Stealth and PSS and still have no more money in it than if you had purchased one of the others.  Then when you shoot that barrel out, you can rebarrel it yourself.  Like CDC said, unless you are paid from a different pay scale...........

Have fun in the "stumps."

When are we going to be able to make the Win vs Rem thing a Win vs Rem vs Savage thing??????????????????

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 16:08:25 (ZULU)

Learning more every Day

BD

JM <bigdog@texas-proent.com>
Nocona, TX, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 17:00:28 (ZULU)

To be able to use Mil hold off, you first have to know what your Come ups are at various ranges, and you have to know what a Mil equals in inches at that range also.

1MOA=1inch at 100

1MIL=3.6 inches at 100 and increases in increments of 3.6 for each 100 yards (Just like a MOA)

So..lets say you are shooting with a 100 yard zero on your rifle. ( using my comeups and mil holds for this example so guys...don't freak out)but you want to shoot at 400 yards.

For 400 yards you have to come up 8 MOA, which is 32 inches. A mil equals 14.4 inches at 400 yards, 32/14.4=app. 2.5 Mil hold. Simple once you get the hang of it. If you want to put this to application, drop me a line, I have a 1000 yard range not too far from you. Hope this helped.

Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 17:19:01 (ZULU)

Pete,

have you tried Desert DPM, thats peach colored, should be Ok for the beadroom.

Jerry,

green tip is a hard steel core tip with a lead base slug, all in a mild steel jacket.

Supose to give better penetration on thin armor and more energy transfer after breakup in soft skinned targets. Real thin armor I guess. Its our standard ammo for the G-36´s.

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
spring is here, with 65°F in, germany - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 17:44:30 (ZULU)

Trajectory drop in inches(prior mentioned hypothetical 32") x 27.77. That dividided by range in yards,gives mil holdover value.

32 x 27.77 = 888.64   That divided by range in yds.  888.64/400 = 2.22

Same results,just a different path to get there. Faster/easier for me to build a drop card,with that formula.

NOBODY <Kyle92@aptalaska.net>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 17:52:36 (ZULU)

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 18:10:03 (ZULU)

Reloading challenged, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 18:11:38 (ZULU)

I don't spend a lot time weighing cases, but when I am weighing for comparison between cases I do all the work first-primer pockets, debur flash hole, and trim to the same length.  This way you are comparing apples to apples.

At this stage you can make assumption on case volume.  This would be the point in the first place, to find consistant cases with the same volume.

Dave

Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 18:56:10 (ZULU)

If you want to be involved and have had a problem, please mail me off line with a description of the problem, how it was handled, how you were treated, etc.  A name and number to go with it would lend credibility to the arguement.  I will pass it along.  I mentioned barrels being off center in the stocks, incomplete chambers, raceways with chunks cut out of them, mill marks from hell, crappy crowns, etc.  They responded with the polite request above.

I have plenty of buddies that have had problems with Remington over the last 20 years.  I own lots of Remington guns and 90% of the time I even have a Remington ball cap on.  I am not trying to be a dick about it - just trying to get them to tighten up the QC.  Fat chance.

PETER LINCOLN YOU PSYCOPATH !   The grinding story killed me.  Sounds like some shit I would do.  Hey, I may have a NEW line on that item you wanted.  A Canuck SWAT cop called a day or two ago wanting a favor.  I'll see what I can do for both you guys.  May be a win, win for both.

Stood right next to Paul Howe (DELTA guy in Mog shootout) at the State SWAT conference for a few minutes.  Didn't get to talk to him.  He was teaching Hostage Rescue while I was in the Sniper classes.  Big dude.

Watch your six guys,

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 19:26:54 (ZULU)

BUFF

BUFF <tiger_dog1998@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 20:22:15 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 21:47:02 (ZULU)

Thanks for the explanation on the Badger.

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:00:29 (ZULU)

Brian... what is the website that the Remington guys are on.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:01:39 (ZULU)

If I had to choose one I would go with George Gardner at GA Precision. He does excellent work and does it quick. You should get yourt rifle within a couple of months of order. I think there was someone on here or another board that got his rifle in about a month. If you go TBA then you'll be waiting at least 2 years for the rifle. That's their wait time. There has also been talk of QC problems. I've also tried to get ahold of Mike to ask a question and never got any return e-mails or phone calls after a few tries. I don't like that. I don't have any direct dealings with NorCal but heard they do very good work also. All the rifles are about the same cost so that shouldn't be a factor. Read the reviews about ther GA Precision Rock rifle in the review section.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:15:23 (ZULU)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/856fcmtf.asp

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:22:59 (ZULU)

Thanks and sorry for the redundant question.

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:56:35 (ZULU)

got a question concerning computer ballistic proggies;

we noticed that the comeups for my friends stealth are always 1 or 2 moa to low compared to what the ballistic data says, while the comeups for my HBV are always wright on the money, for instance if the proggies says i need 21 klicks for 300 meters, it turnes out that is exactly the amount of clicks i need for my HBV.

Can this be because my friend has got a 20 moa canted badger base, and so that might be the reason why the computer proggie is always wrong for the stealth and wright for the HBV, cause i do not have a canted base?????If so, is there a ballistic proggie that also calculates up for weapons with a 20moa canted base??

'Lito,

is it possible that 155 grainers are to light for the Winnie's 1-12 twist? Cause up till now the 155's are shooting crappy at 100meters, while they got a much better bc and a much higher muzzle velocity then for instance the sierra 175 or the lapua 167 grainers.

(up till now the 167 have given the best performance in the Winnie)

Sarge, like Pete said, i got the B&L on my Winnie, but only got pictures of it mounted, none really close-up yet, if ya want i can make some for you, mail me if you do.

Bolt,

i personally weigh my cases, always after i have done the trimming, flashole deburring and primer pocket uniforming. From aprox 300 cases i get 50 left of which are the same weight and these i use for competition. Don't know for sure if this is what helps, but i noticed that i perform best when i have done all my tricks on my cases, and that includes weighing them.

Wes, take care with your hand and wrist, how did your second intervieuw go?

Pete,

unbelievable, but me and my m8s actually are thinking of stepping away from Nightforce and are even contemplating to look for S&B pmII's!! What is this world coming to...Serious, your last words about cm's vs moa kinda hit a nerve with us, it makes calculating so much easyer,well for us Eurotrashh anyway....;) Can you sum up the different types S&B got, which kind of reticles are possible, how many come-ups they got, and which one you would advise for long range shooting? (if possible including the prizes you can get for them at your friends gun shop?)

Questionmarked,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 23:26:25 (ZULU)

Toothpaste in their asses?!

I thought Pepsodent got rid of the yellow!  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 00:25:25 (ZULU)

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 00:44:27 (ZULU)

Hit jarheadtop.com and get Sgt Owens book on the military sling.  You can use the military sling as a cuff sling legally in service rifle.  A dedicated cuff sling doesn't meet the milspec.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 01:08:10 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 01:22:29 (ZULU)

Since I don't have optics for the M1A yet and I didn't feel like dismantling the Loopy from the bolt gun, I broke down and scarfed my Colt Delta scope off of the AR and stuck it on the beast.

Using Fed 175 GMM, the cold bore shot at 100 yards was, well, about 24" high.

Seems I forgot the scope was zeroed for 300 yards with 5.56.  Duh!

After some major clicking down, I managed to find the little orange circles and went to work.  I shot 12 five shot groups that all came in just at or under 1MOA.  Three of the groups were .75MOA.

All shots taken off the M2 bipod and left hand under the butt.  Looks like I have a keeper here, especially if I get decent glass and a Harris on it.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 01:57:30 (ZULU)

Got to put in a plug for Nor-cal Precision. As a extremly satisfied user of his rifles I have found nothing better. To be fair though, I would have no problems recommending Gardner from all the good reports from others. That's it though from your list...

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 02:37:00 (ZULU)

Tomorrow, we meet at 0800 for training at our 600 yard range. Just three of us and the range all to ourselves in the morn...

Another compadre has a 1,000 yards on his ranch in the valley. We are set for this year.

I'm taking my M40A1 clone and my to LE buddies are bringing Rem 700 PSS's. We are going to work from 100 yards back to 600, including movers. Unless, that is, someone shows up and wants to share the range. Probably not in poor this weather.

Speaking of weather...typical Oregon. Sunny/broken overcast today. Tomorrow, wait and see every five minutes.

Wish me luck...this is my first time shooting since the operation almost 3 weeks ago...just a test. If it goes OK I'm IN!

Monday, we finish the .22/250! I can hardly wait!

Take care, all. Hold Hard!

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 02:51:40 (ZULU)

Science

Been weighing cases and comparing by checking case capacity. Using New unused  Federal Match Brass I have here in stock (Source, unfired Olympic surplus)

Test

I micrometered each case for exact length.(they were all very very close no detectable difference in length in this lot.  No flash hole work or neck turning was involved. Cases weighed and compared weight against capacity to hold small grained pistol powder.  

Conclusion: the heaviest cases and the lightest ones compared with no detectable difference in capacity at all with a  measurable tolerance to about .05 grains.

Caution; This does not say that all cases that weigh  different don't have different capacity but it does convince me that weighing cases is not very conclusive as to the capacity of the inside of the case.  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 03:12:43 (ZULU)

Anyone know where I can get a decent amount of once fired LC 5.56 brass for cheap??  I'm looking at Bartlett Reloading

http://www.gibrass.com/brass.html

Is there a better way out there??  I'm looking to keep the same headstamp if possible, but these are for highpower rounds, and until I'm better, new expensive cases are not really neccessary.

Wes,

I'm envious of your shooting tomorrow.  How did the comp work out??  I'm sure after all these years of shooting, you've got a highly trained trigger finger.  It'll know what to do ;-))

FatBoy...  

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 03:30:27 (ZULU)

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 07:00:19 (ZULU)

The tapered bases have no effect on come-ups on a rifle.  Are you guys using the same programs, and do you have the muzzle velocities accurate?

The 155 Palma (BC = .450) has almost the same BC as the 168 (BC = .460), but nowhere near the 175 (BC = .500)...

... the 155's shoot flat cuz you can drive them so fast.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 09:17:47 (ZULU)

yup we are using the same program, and the muzzle velocities should be accurate enough, got them from shooting over the chronometer.

So the 20 moa you gain with the base, does not interfer with the amount of clicks a ballistic program reccomends you? Cause i would think that when the program tells you to go 21 klicks up, it will be different for a gun with a 20moa base than for one without...or am i comparing apples with oranges?

And about the 155, we are using the lapua scenar which has a bc of .508, can it be it is to light for the 1 in a 12 inch twist?? It gives us 1.5 moa groups, while the 167 gives us .75 moa average groups.

thnx,

Marco.

all you other B&L owners, be awere and hide your scopes, there is a B&L addict among us!!  ;)

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
nl - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 12:47:16 (ZULU)

  Okay - Okay - I will take the first step: Recognition - I admit that I always try to pick those up as they come by... Everyone that knows me knows that I have a few of these...

I was told that there was a support group for these type of illnesses....BTW -

Semper Fi

Ken

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 14:23:54 (ZULU)

I would venture to say that as long as the scope is mounted the same height above the bore line, the ballistic programs will be accurate because they are giving you your come ups from the 100 yard zero.  The only thing the base is doing is allowing you to zero further up into the scopes internal adjutsment.

If I was using a flat base that was the same height as my badger, I would still require 43 MOA up to get me to my 1000 yard zero.. Problem would be, after zeroing my scope with a flat base, I would only have 27 moa internal adjustment, not nearly enough.

Hope I'm looking at this correctly,, if not some one will be along to correct me soon enough ;)))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 14:26:48 (ZULU)

Consider the Savage 10FP. Adjust the trigger and find a stock to your liking and you've got a rig that is as good as a Remington or Winchester. Like Paul said, you can change barrels yourself, and the list of "serious, hard core" accessories is growing. I know that many don't like the look of the Savage rifles, but mine looks pretty good at 100m, 200m, 300m...:-)

KEB

Kevin <BeggsKE@raytheon.com>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 15:06:41 (ZULU)

thnx forthe info.

I think i got 576 clicks=144 moa with my B&L, if i'm not mistaking.

I dont have a 20 moa base on my HBV, my m8 has got one on his Stealth.

That's where the ? came from, i am always on the money and he is always one or 2 clicks low, compared to what the program says.

Ken,

What in the name of The Big All Mighty Long Range God Of .308's do you want with 7 B&L's????

I know they are great scopes, i really like mine, but to have seven of them, man, you must be a B&L tactical junkie/ addict, if you want i can give you the phone nr of B&L Anonemous....  ;)

Been trying to mail you about trading scopes, but unfortenately both your mail adresses keep bouncing back...

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 15:15:20 (ZULU)

  Try to send the email again. I disabled the spammer blacklist for awhile. I need to see what ISP you're coming from. We get alot of spam from over there where you're at.

SSSSSHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! why did you let my secret out... Dang!

(Running from the dudes in the Leupold suites....)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 15:27:53 (ZULU)

Attention Ft. Benning sniper babies! Your booties are shining like little black flash lights! Saw the snippet on MSNBC, making snipers look good for a change.

Camo dem booties, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:11:23 (ZULU)

OK... same guns, same ballistic programs, (tapered mounts don't make a difference, read Chris' post!)... Are you guys using the same scopes, and same bullets.

If different scopes, then is may be that the internal adjustments may not be the same, and if different bullets, then one's BC may be in error.

----

The 155 Scenars are not too light for the 12" twist...

On the 155 Scenar, that's probably a typo.  I strongly doubt that the BC is .508....  That would give it a higher BC than it's heavier brother, the 167 gr Scenar which has a BC of .470???

Even the VERY LONG 155gr Berger VLD's BC is only .484.  The BC of the 155 gr Scenar is probably around .450 +/-.

With bullets of the same caliber, and same design, the lighter one has the lower BC.

Some manufactures adjust their BC's to match proprietery programs... so the BC won't match other bullets of similar design, or their bullets won't perform as expected, in other software.

-

Sir Wesley... What ever happened to the Mexican Mouser?  Winter is the time for those projects.

-

Chris... don't waste your time looking for the same headstamp on LC brass, because they have about 2 trillion case making lines going at the same time, so the headstamps don't mean anything... just clean them up (sort them by weight if necessary) and shoot them.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:14:19 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:23:34 (ZULU)

JM - Simply divide the 4.8 by 3.44 and you get 1.39 mils.  You may round to nearest .25 mil, in this case 1.5 mils, or you may learn to hold a light 1.5 mils.  Also while I applaud your precise nature for bullet drop to the .047th of an inch (1 moa equals 1.047 inches at 100 yards), you can do quick math by assuming 1 moa equals 1 inch for every 100 yards and then use 3.5 moa per mil.  This would mean that the drop in inches is then divided by the yards in hundreds, this equals moa.  Using Bobby's excellent example of 32 inches at 400 then 32/4 = 8 moa.  Now there are 4 clicks to the moa, for your .25 moa sights, so again 4 times 8 equals 32 clicks on your sight and 8 divided by 3.5 equals 2.28 mils or 2.25 mils rounded.  Doing this in the more precise manner would result in 4 times 1.047 equals 4.188 inches per moa.  32 inches divided by 4.188 equals 7.64 moa.  7.64 divided by 3.44 equals 2.22 mils or the same answer of 2.25 mils.  Clear as mud?

OK shall end the math games for now.  Wish I was at the Shot Show instead of getting ready the next course.  Oh well missed this trip, the powers in charge sent two ohter guys instead little old me.  :-(

Hold Hard Guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:34:03 (ZULU)

Tedious, very tedious, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:36:39 (ZULU)

about the 20 moa canted base ballistic program issue,

i am slowly getting the picture into my thick skull with the help of you and some other rosterfarians who have been mailing me bout it and am starting to understand it, i think...;)

About the 155 grain scenars...no typo Lito-san!

If one can doubt it, i do not know, do not have the experience to say if this is an impossible bc for such a light bullet.

But, according to the latest internet info from Nammo and what it says in their books, the 155 grain scenar GB491-4pl7073 (c) has a bc of .508, maybe only the 170 grains lockbase with a .525 bc might be more apropiate for sniping purposes. (or the 175 sierra for that matter)

So, once more, i do not know if this bc is exagurated by Lapua or not, but up till now i have found lapua always very reliable and accurate with their findings.

The 155 is a very long slim looking bullit,just as long as the 185 head, it only has got a more spitz snout.

A less puzzled Marco.

ps; Rick, i tried to keep up with your explantion, but all that math is i guess way over my simpleminded grunts head, only makes me want to buy a scope with cm clicks instead of moa even more.  ;)

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:39:51 (ZULU)

If it's that long at 155gr, it will need the 12" twist... twist is determined by the length of the bullet, not the weight.

Are you two guys using the same scopes... to check if there is a tracking error... set up two paper targets at 100m that are about 1.5 meters high, and put an aiming point at the BOTTOM of the target.  Then shoot 200 through 1000 come-ups using the same aiming point at the bottom, and see if the groups are at the same amount over the aiming point.  if so, there is a tracking error in one.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:51:34 (ZULU)

When you wanna get rid of that POS B&L, for a metric scope, let me know before Ken will ya ;))

Ken,

I'm just thinking of you... Part of the twelve step program is giving away those excessive B&L's to other, less addicted shooters..  Where do I sign up??

'Lito and Bill,

Thank you both for the case info.

Rick,

There's another post for my harddrive...  Thank.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:54:28 (ZULU)

Dang man, you are making me show my age here! Your short math sure makes the long math easier! Just goes to show that you (As least I am) never too old to learn a new and simpler way! Thanks!

Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 17:00:34 (ZULU)

Got my damn Heym barrelsorted at last, looks like it was communication problems holöding the thing up,

Paul, i know it was mean worrying the guy with the expensive Drilling, it was worth $15000, but as the Germans say, Spaß muß sein, or fun must be...

Brian, in 89 all I had to do for the canuk wings was jump out of a perfectly servicable airplane, right now I'd kill for some, I heard the canuk paras where disbanded?

Marco, Ill mail you with the rundown on the S&B PMII, I get em trade + 16%tax+5% markup for my mate, I don't add a thing, (what a nice guy eh?)the 20 MOA base just gives you more UP, like viagra,  and screw the balistics program, its just a start point or guide, each rifle shoots different and so do many shooters, the only way is to shoot it, my 30-06 was shot often at every 25 metres up to 650m untill i verified the zero and elevation, I did this before I even knew how to turn a computer on.

Now for the BAD NEWS, Any one got a used diesel jeep engine they don't realy need, I blew my mother F----er yesterday, looks like that will cap any experiments and projects for the next months.

Oh, If I never see any more wall paper, It 'll be too soon..

Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 18:37:43 (ZULU)

nope, were diferent scopes, mine a B&L his a Leup M3.

I now understand that the canted base does not matter, still gonna try your 1,5 meter paper target thing to check our own come-ups next saturday

thanks.

Pete, S&B is looking better and better.

But still haven't made up my mind yet.

Looking forward to compare the plusses and minusses from the NXS's, S&B's and even some Leupies.

Get that old fart that drove you of the road to start paying you...blimey, don't you think if you stick your Heymbarrel under his nose that he will come through??  Hmm what am i saying, don't think that at school this is considered incorruptible...

Back to studying the law,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
Nl - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 20:12:25 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 21:05:07 (ZULU)

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 21:51:49 (ZULU)

Thanks for the advice on the bag, I'll give Eagle a look.  I would appreciate it if you could findout the other make as well.  I like to get as much info as I can before I buy.

Looks like you got yourself a little hobby there, 'Roster-Spotting'.  You've racked up a load of names already.  Do you have to wear an anorak and go every where with a flask of tea ;-).

Pete Lincoln,

I want to publicly thank you for organising the boar hunting trip and running me around.  It was a pleasure to meet you and I know we will see a fair bit more of each other.  By the way, I'm so hooked on the German experience I've cleaned out my garden shed, put in some windows and added a couple of planks for a bed.  Unfortunately the local council planning regs won't let me put it on 5m stilts, so I'll have to make do.  When it's full moon I'm going to go and sleep in it and recreate the whole thing.  Best thing is I'll see just as many boar and it won't cost me a penny ;-).

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 22:17:34 (ZULU)

Bobby - Being 54 I know what you mean by never being too old!

Nobody - You are working in too large of numbers, use .2777 as your first multiplier and then divide by range in hundreds.  32 x .2777/4 gives the same answer and is easier on my old head.  actualy I like my way as it is easier still on my old head.  Of course 32 x 27.77 divided by 4 mils gives the range to the 32 inch object miled out at 4 mils in yards.  :-)

Dang, that was fun, and I said no more math today!  Brain now in cramp land!

Hold Hard guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 22:56:00 (ZULU)

Ken, another mail bounced so i send it to the other mail adress you gave me.

Rick,

I really do not want to start another inches versus cm's /metric thread again, but you write; "BUT! when you want to know how many cm there are in 5 moa at 600 meters then you have to add a step"  

If i were to buy a cm scope like the S&B, than why would i want to know how much 5 moa is at 600 meters?? With a scope that works in cm's i'd never again have to use the term moa...or am i overlooking an important factor once again?

Thnx,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 23:16:04 (ZULU)

Seems that while the rest of you are crashing cars, cajoleing poor helpless S&B reps, and such, I have been out SHOOTING!

Met my LE buddies at the range at 0800. We set up and were ready to shoot by 0900. Checked their zero's and come ups. One had been given come ups that would have put him over the targets at 600 yards.

My 600 yard group was 3"...

Once all was squared away we moved back to 600 and got solid zero's for the gents at that range. Both shot Rem 700 PSS's and did quite well. My M40A1 Obermeyer gun held the X when I did my part.

We moved in to 300 and then 200 shooting bullseye tragets and movers.

I was getting solid "kill shots" on the movers and shooting out the X rings on  the bullseye targets.

All in all a good day. The hand/wrist smarts a bit, but is OK. Next Saturday I shoot my first Sniper match at Tri-County Gun club. May shoot .308, but probably my 6.5 X .284, as it shoots so much flatter.

All in all a GREAT Day. Weather even cooperated with no rain to speak of...

All the best...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, US of A - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 23:45:58 (ZULU)

If it's 30" at 600 equals cm at 600 yrds, it would be 30" = 76cm... if it's 30" at 600yds equals cm at 600 meters, then it would be 30" = 83cm... can't find any 90's in there...

What did I miss??

-

A nice person named "Susan" sent this to me... it's from the Durham SC  "Herald Sun" newspaper... it's them pesky "Sniper riffles" again!

=================================================

FEBRUARY 02, 21:40 ET

"Olympic Officials Find Sniper Rifle"

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) ? Olympic security officials were investigating the discovery of a sniper rifle and ammunition reportedly found in the mountains near the Park City Olympic area.

The Utah Olympic Public Safety Command confirmed Saturday that the .50-caliber rifle was found, but said it was "important to note the rifle was not near an Olympic venue."

The Standard-Examiner of Ogden reported the rifle was discovered five miles from the Olympic cross-country skiing venue at Soldier Hollow.  A hunter found the weapon last Saturday, it said.

Tracy Hite, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, would not disclose where the rifle was found. Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt said he was told the weapon had no link to the Winter Olympics.

"It was rusted and did not appear to be operable," Leavitt said.

The type of weapon found is often used by military and police as a sniper rifle because of its power. It can hit a target a mile away.

The Standard-Examiner cited a report from the Wasatch County Sheriff's office that said the rifle was found in a green metal box marked "explosives" along with 386 rounds of ammunition.

A dispatcher with the sheriff's office said Saturday she had no information about the rifle.

Although security fears are high for the games, the only response by the combined federal-state-local security command for the Olympics was a three-sentence statement that the discovery was under investigation and that it did not happen near an Olympic venue.

Hite, though, refused to define what "near" meant.

===========================================================

How come I don't find no 50 BMG sniper riffles, and a hundred pounds of ammo, when I go hiking??

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 23:49:52 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 00:56:17 (ZULU)

Catshooter! - You got me confused on your question.  I guess I was trying to throw too much in on a single thread.  30 inches does not equal 90 cm.  That is a gimme.  I was showing how our measurements would have been a simple 5 x 6 or 5 moa at 600 YARDS would equal 30 inches(approx).  But they have 5 moa at 600 METERS and this causes a bit of a math fun thingy.  1 moa is 3 cm per 100 meters or 3 x 6 = 18 cm or 1 moa = 18 cm at 600 meters.  Now 5 moa would be 5 times 18 cm = 90 cm total for 5 moa at 600 meters.  It is easier for me to run the math that way then with the bullet drop as 72cm at 400 as I used at the end of the post.  Again this is for computing mil hold overs to compensate for bullet drop.  Direct translation from inches to metric is difficult as 1 moa equals 1.047 inches per 100 yards and 1 moa equals 2.xx cm per 100 meters (danged if I can rememeber the exact number of cm per 100 meters).  This causes the 600 meters to become 656.4 yards.  Now 5 moa at 656.4 becomes 5 x 1.047 or 5.235 x 6.564 = 34.36 inches.  90 cm would be 35.43 inches but that is accounted for in that 3 cm is more than what 1 moa equals per 100 meters.  The common usage of 1 inch and 3 cm is for ease of use and memory.  Still clear as mud!

I'm getting a headache! :-)

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 01:09:40 (ZULU)

Not mine.  If I tried nasty arithmetic like that I'd get something God awful.  I'd find an easier way.  A mathematician's  first motivation is sheer animal laziness.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 01:21:40 (ZULU)

My guess is , if it exsists, it's an old M2, as I can't imagine anyone could get 200+ rounds of 50 off out of a Barret or bolt action.   They'd carry them away, brains scambled like yesterdays eggs..

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 01:32:04 (ZULU)

Time to get serious for glass for the M1A.  I've been looking at Springfield's scopes, particularly the GE5098 (4-14x56 mildot)and the GE5099 (6-20x56 mildot).  

The GE5098 has something called "automatic bullet drop compensation."  Is this the same thing as the Loopy M3LR "one spin of the dial" deal?

Then again, I really like the Loopy M3LR, so why shouldn't I put one on the M1A?  Then I'll have the bolt gun and the gas gun (both 7.62) with the same optical system and won't have to retrain myself.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:10:43 (ZULU)

On my Rem PSS 308 I was thinking of going with a leupold. Maybe one with a BDC.

How does Fedral and BlackHills 175&180grain perform?

Any deer hunters out their that use 308 winchester?

Thanks,

Larry

Larry <lwebdell@gloryworks.com>
Ca, US - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:24:27 (ZULU)

Fred Hartman

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
omaha, ne, usa - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:43:46 (ZULU)

Moe...

I have the Springfield, Gen 1 (GE5093) scope on my M21 (also Springfield Armory), and it's fine... the reticle is here:

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-rngfd.shtml

There is a separate reticle "unit" for each range... and you can measure anything that is 3", 5", 10", 18" 24", 30", and 36"... so you have a lot of choices on target items to use for ranging...

Say you have an 24" target, you just go down the groups, until a "24" line matches your real target.  When you find the line, you will know the range.  That group will be right on the aiming point, and you shoot.  No math, or calculators, no nuttin, you never take your eye from the eyepiece... and it has a built-in bubble level.  The Gen 1 is the cheapest, and the most practical... you don't need target turrets, when the ranging, and "come-ups" are on the reticle.

-

I think you guys are right on the idea of the 50 being planted (by Diaz??)... anyone that wanted to use it, would have sealed it in a plastic cover of some kind, and put that in an aluminum case... and FIVE MILES AWAY... hello, is there any intelegent life in that state?

Even the very best 50 shooters, ain't that good.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:46:53 (ZULU)

"50 Cal SWS found to be registered to Waxman aid."  Now THAT would make sense. :-)

Only second alternative would be a Feinstein aide.

Good night guys and hold hard.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:55:07 (ZULU)

ditto with lito on the 155 scenar's, I don't think a 1/12" twist rate is too fast for 'em, it's all specific gravity and length of bullet which determines twist rate, not BC's.  Actually I'd rather be a little fast than a little slow comin' out of the gate, in reference to twist.  Biggest thing a 'too' fast twist rate does is strip yer jacket on lite bullets, but that would be way fast for your application.

Pat's take the Superbrawl, I suppose all youse folks in the NE area were just waitin' to avenge your last attempt(s).  Good for them, eh, was a good year for the patriots, the football team and the rest of the US of A.  Almost too fitting, eh....  That Adam Vinateri's from mrbullet and my home base, see, we SoDaks never sweat, take it to another level, hahah...  Good game, best finish I've seen..

laaater eh

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 03:55:09 (ZULU)

Fred:

CF barrels have no place in the tac/comp shooting world as of yet, that I have seen.  They are lighter, but the accuracy of these barrels are minimal.  They do not, as of yet, hold their own to a steel pipe.  I ran a few 'blanks' for Magnum Research CF barrels, and they might have had the best chance of makin' the cut for truly accurate barrels, but I didn't like the looks of 'em one bit.  It's all in the sleeve, you gotta make the barrel just like any other barrel 'cept turn it down, contour the barrel, to ridiculously small diameters.  This is the process where, even if you're making tac contour steel barrels, you can screw up major.  You can bend the barrel with the tool pressure, relieve stress in the barrel where you don't wanna, heat up the barrel, it's not an easy go of things for normal production.  But if you have to turn a 30 caliber barrel, rifled, to x<.500" straight, you are in for a ride, not much wall thickness.  I would recommend CF barrels for the varminter only, right now.  He's the one who is going to go thru a lot of rounds, and use small enough calibers to maintain some sort of wall thickness that MAY improve his chances on getting a straight barrel.

This is my opinion of the Carbon Fiber barrels I have seen, I could be dead wrong.  But it's a barrel, like any other barrel, and I won't have one in my gun cabinet anytime soon.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 04:52:01 (ZULU)

Moe had asked and 'Lito responded about the Springfield scopes and is considering a Luppie M3. I'd say go Luppie over the Springfield. I have a M3 6X on my M25 and it's great. Still learning to use the thing, as I prefer turrets and MOA adjustments on my bolt actions...just a preference thing.

Larry, I'd go with 175's or Hornaday 178 A-maxes. Both shoot better than we can, in most cases. I use 175's for ALL my .308 shooting. That way I don't have other loads to dork with, zero's to change, etc.

Factory Black Hills 175's shoot well, too. I prefer to reload...gives a sense of satisfaction.

Agree with 'Lito and all on the .50 cal "sniper" rifle that was "found". It was trashed...no terrorist would leave it in that condition. My guess is it was stolen and/or unregistered and some one hid it out(stored poorly) and hadn't come back. I can't get into the .50 thing as there is no place to shoot the darn things most of the time.

On the 155 gr. Palmas...should stabilize beautifully in a 1:12" twist. Palma shooters are going to 1:13+, pushing them really hard, and using 29-30" barrrels. Me, I'll stick with 175's...;-)

All for now. I'm trying to get a ballistic comparison chart to print comparing my .22/250 with 55 grainers, my 6.5 X .284 with 142 grainers, and my .308 with 175 grainers. Having a devil of a time...

In case you're wondering, the 6.5 x .284 kicks butt.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 04:56:20 (ZULU)

The 30 Palma's have always confused me.  Normally a barrelmaker would use a .3080 (plus or minus 5 ten-thousandth's inch) groove diameter for an accurate 30 caliber barrel.  30 Palma's are .3065" groove diameter.  That would seem like a lot of upset to a .308" diameter bullet, and pressures usually skyrocket if you are over .0005" under the bullet diameter.  Do they use extremely long freebores in the Palmas, or are the bullets of different diameter for the Palma team?  Do they use this excess pressure for something beneficial?  I don't understand why they use the twists or barrel dimensions they do, please let me know if you know.  That's one area I haven't really covered...

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 05:30:37 (ZULU)

Fred Hartman

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
omaha, ne, usa - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 14:40:30 (ZULU)

The reason for the tight bores in Palma/Fullbore was the bullet diameters used in the 7.62 NATO ammo.  Outside the U.S., the game was played with "issue" ammunition.  The bullets loaded in this ammunition were a bit undersize by U.S. standards and required tight bores.

There were really no "standards" for these barrels and fitting the various barrels for the game required a good selection of bore pilots.  The tightest bores I've seen were on the hammered Enfield and Ferlach barrels.  These could run (from recollection) as small as .306", and under.

In recent years, the standard for the Palma Match itself is a 155 Sierra loaded to 2.80" OAL.  Throating is all over the landscape, but a half educated guess is that most throating will allow for about .020"-.025" jump.

Knowing what worked (and not wanting to find out what didn't), I stuck with the 1 in 13" .298"-.3065".  The reasoning behind this is that most all the rifles that I barreled were traveling rifles and might be used with handloads one week and "issue" ball the next.  This also required the chamber itself to be a bit on the large size.  There have been those that tried to apply benchrest technology to Palma/Fullbore chambering.........The stories are as numerous (and interesting) as the neck dimensions on the ammo handed to the shooter!

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
COLD & WINDY SE, IL, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 15:12:52 (ZULU)

Thanks, Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 15:38:11 (ZULU)

http://www.frontsight.com/1day_smg_course.htm

Anyone taken any of the regular classes offered there?

Only308 <only308@hotmail.com>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 16:52:26 (ZULU)

Thanks for your helpful comments on glass bedding.  Bedded the Rem 700P over the weekend.  First time disassembling the weapon, so it was a lot of fun figuring out the trigger assembly and how everything fit together.

What was less fun was trying to figure out where the bind was in the stock that was causing the action to tilt left when the tang bolt was tightened.  Removed some metal from various places, inclding the tang area, which helped some, but still did not completely solve the problem.  I now understand the issue of round versus flat action surfaces mating to the stock.  Finally just got to where I figured that was the best I could do and start glassing.  Was somewhat surpried how little surface area there was to bed.

After seeing how relatively simple these weapons are I have no sympathy for Remington.  They should be able to control their manufacturing process and tolerances very tightly.  That they don't speaks volumes about management.  Their product is perfect for applying statistical process control techniques.

Thanks again for your advice!  Now comes the hard part - waiting a week for complete cure before I can shoot.

William M.

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 17:06:33 (ZULU)

You can pull the action in 24 hours, and shoot it in 48.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 17:26:48 (ZULU)

 That fifty must have been there for a while. Leave your shootin' stick out over night here in good weather and it will look like a surplus store reject.

 Anybody got any ideas for a canted scope base for a Savage short action?

FESTUS

festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
anchorage , ak, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 17:51:35 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 18:46:44 (ZULU)

Only308 <only308@hotmail.com>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 20:02:19 (ZULU)

Concerning your question on the carbon fiber/ceramic barreled SWS.

I got to shoot one of the Remington protos last year at Blackwater. Charlie Cutshaw from Janes brought it to show around and shoot. I shot it off a pack and from the 'pods. Yea, it's light and would be easy to hump, but without the weight it just didn't feel stable and was hard for me to hold hard with it. I would probably have to shoot it more, but I was not all that impressed. I guess I'm just used to having that weight out front. Ya know, an old dog.

I think JR is right on stay with steel.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 20:09:05 (ZULU)

If you can hold out until say April, Dan Ross will have his 6-48 Optical Platform for a Savage short action ready.  You can go with the Lightforce two piece base if you are in a rush.  Both are for Mil-Std-1913 rings like Badger Ordnance and Leupold MkIV.

KEB

KEB <BeggsKE@raytheon.com>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 20:53:17 (ZULU)

I hunt with 308 in the Southeast and have taken several deer.  Normally use Remington 150 or 180 cor-lok.  Most of the time ranges are 150yds or less, with good shot placement I have had deer drop in their tracks.  I was thinking of using my stick for some longer range hunting and developed a load with the 165gr Game Kings. I have shot them (on paper) to 500yds,  with the same POI as my 168SMK load. I would not attempt to take an animal at that range but, it is nice to know what the load will do at that range.

Out,

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 21:11:05 (ZULU)

I'm slacking off the news posting but this is an editorial on Bush preemptively using military force against "axis of evil."  The foreign policy establishment is spooked.  Screw 'em.  

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/858osfjg.asp

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 21:23:16 (ZULU)

Hold Hard guys

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 21:34:06 (ZULU)

  Has anyone used this reticle?  I have a George Gardner AR10 and I am looking for a scope. Trying to decide on a Leupold 4-14x50LR w/M1 knobs, 3.5-10x40 M1 LR or a 3.5-10x40 M3 LR. It will have a mil-dot, but don't know about the Gen 2 from Premier Reticle. Any suggestions.  The rifle is a flat-top  I have Badger ultra-high rings. I know a 40mm will fit, but will a 50mm have clearence also with BC flip-up caps  THANKS Doug

Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 22:35:37 (ZULU)

Needle in a haystack search, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 23:33:17 (ZULU)

I have had a Gen-2 mildot for the last few weeks.  A lot of thought based on shooter's feed back, and it it is the best of the mildot reticles available.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 23:34:31 (ZULU)

We have 2 scopes with the Gen 2 reticle in them. One is a 3.5 X 10 Tacital the other is a M1LR. I really like them!!!! Like 'lito said..best recticle out there!

Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 23:59:55 (ZULU)

 THANKS for the quick answers. I thought the GEN 2 looked pretty good so that is the way I will go. I have another question. Is the M3 LR easier to use than the MK4 M3, or are they the same? Wondering because of the extra adjustment on the turrent. The AR10 will be for coyote hunting, and deciding between the LR M1 or M3. What do you guys think  would work best as this is the first semi 308 I have owned. I think the M3 would be faster than M1.  THANKS Doug

Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
- Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 01:04:27 (ZULU)

Bill, thanks for the input.  I had a feeling the predicament with palma was the bullets used.  

Fred:

yer 130 grain Silvertips should group fine with the .270 win, which will be a 1/10" twist rate.  270 is a very accurate caliber, probably up to the equipment you are using.  Worst thing about 270 is there was a lot of 'em made without consideration to detail, and they don't have a lot of bullet weights to work with.  Maybe this'll pick up a little bit with the introduction of the 270 WSM..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 01:40:08 (ZULU)

I have AR-10 with hi badger rings and M3 scope. When scope is zeroed at 100 the most elevation I can get from there is 870yards.Check posts going back 3-4 weeks as to which scopes need sloped mounts for max elevation Charlie

Charlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
Ann Arbor, Mi, Usa - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 01:42:19 (ZULU)

JR,

I think the reason Palma shooters can get away with the .3065/.298 is the short bearing surface of the 155 bullets, although quite a few shoot the 175's in the same barrels with good results.

Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 02:34:33 (ZULU)

.200 center to center with the .338LM George Gardner built for me will you believe me?

Thanks George great gun.

question anyone knows where i can find a dealer for Black hills ammo?I am handloading but i would like to have a referanse(?) with factory ammo.

thanks

jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
marathon, fl, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 02:52:54 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:00:30 (ZULU)

Georgia Precision has the best prices, selection, and service that I've found on BH ammo. I just today ordered a 500 round case of 175's for my Garner-ized PSS, in fact. Have a peek:

http://www.georgiaprecision.com

Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:00:53 (ZULU)

Get yourself a GGG scout rail with 20 MOA built in and use Badger or Lupy M4 rings.  That will give you the elevation you need for 1000 and  I suggest the M3 for a scope.  That's how mine are set up.  Hope I like the Gen II, I have one comming.  

Take care

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:20:33 (ZULU)

All of you who use America Online in particular. I have been told that AOL is allegedly anti-gun.

ANYWAY.. everyone has been wanting an alternative.

Now you have one:

http://join.nraonline.com/preregister.asp?ID=

The above URL (linked below as well) is for a new ISP (Internet Service Provider) that is run by the NRA! Why let your ISP dollars be used against you? If you are an AOLer get the hell off of there and get an ISP that will support YOU!

Charles

http://www.memorableplaces.com

Charles of memorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:26:16 (ZULU)

Roy  

Roy Harrison <grizz47@hotmail.com>
Charlottesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:44:14 (ZULU)

Quick question...........gentlemen,

I know that Hart barrels are button rifled.  I was also told that Schneider barrels are buttoned.  Is this true?  If so, what do you guys believe is the reason that the USMC uses buttoned barrels instead of cut?

PLEASE READ:

I am not trying to restart the discussion of which is the better method of rifling a barrel.  I was just sitting here thinking about this and curiosity got the better of me.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:49:20 (ZULU)

I think the general concensus on the scopesmith ARD is to stay way. If I'm not mistakes, 'Lito-san said the new GenII LR's were being threaded to accept a sunshade or a Tenebraex ARD.  Either would be a better choice than the fuzz inducer (aka. Scopesmith ARD)

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:51:18 (ZULU)

I really appreciate your input, but I've made a whole pot of barrels specially for VLD's, for Berger to name one name specifically, that did not call for different dimensions like the palmas.  These were expiremental barrels also.  You're thinking in the right direction, but I don't think it's to do with bearing surface.  Lot a bullets out there with less bearing surface than palmas...

jr

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 04:11:49 (ZULU)

I get mine from Iron Brigade Armory in Jacksonville, NC. Online at:

http://www.ironbrigadearmory.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=3&cat=Ammunition

Or call one of the Norm Chandlers at (910) 455-3834. They can get you same lot number.

Hope this helps. KROWBAR

KROWBAR <krowbar@scsssinc.com>
Orange County, NC, CSA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 05:28:25 (ZULU)

You'll have plenty of clearance for a 50mm scope using Badger ultra-high rings. If you go with the GG&G 20moa base you'll need the std. height rings.

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 06:35:00 (ZULU)

Actually, if you're very careful to get your head directly in line with the scope axis, the image quality is quite good.  There's no way in hell you can combine the ARD with close weave camo net or those spandoflauge masks.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 06:49:25 (ZULU)

 If you want a budget kill flash try this. Take a piece of black pantyhose material and loosely stretch it over the scope. Put a Butler Creek cap over this to hold it in place. Trim excess with an exacto knife and there ya go. Total cost? A buck at the dollar store. This also will be easy to remove without a huge amount of effort. Works for me.

FESTUS

festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, Ak, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 07:08:24 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 11:05:36 (ZULU)

Guys, they are ALL made by Tennebraex (they hold the patent).  The thin ones from Leupold (use to come from Butler) have worse quality, because the holes in the honeycomb are smaller, and the smaller the holes, the worser the image.

Tennebraex makes a mil-spec ARD for the MK4 scopes (and mil bins) that has a better image, but it is 1.5" thick (long).

They ALL degrade the image by softening the resolution, and adding a lot of flair, especially in the dark shadows (where the BGs hide :((.  So when you are looking in the weeds and brush for the target you get a faint layer of milkness over the shadows... You have taken a $1200 MK4, and turned it into a $28 chinee' special from "Junk scopes "R" Us"

I have 4 or 5 of these things, and I gave them to "Ruggus Rattus" to use on his Leggo space station.

Don't use 'em unless you really REALLY MUST.... as for black net stalkings, they will also degrade the image.  They are better off on a woman's legs, but make you breath funny ;).

-

Yes, the new M3-LR's are threaded for a sunshade.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 12:27:10 (ZULU)

Think of all the custom rifles i can buy after this transaction....

Do we sound so dumb, on the roster, that it makes them think we are such easy prey?????????

A soon to be rich Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 15:59:54 (ZULU)

In case you missed it - just keep an eye out for a two story, tower type structure with "SNIPERS" written on it in red, foot high spray painted lettering.   That gives you an idea of what kind of report its going to be.

At least they could have tried to write it in Dari or Farsi so the locals would all know too.

The PR officer could probably have chosen a better team to interview.

That or we need to add "How to be interviewed by the press and remain professional," to the CTT Manual.

Just my opinion.

DakotaAviator <dakotaaviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Neb, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 16:49:12 (ZULU)

Shot show stuff.... Wow what a place! I kinda felt like I just came off of the farm and visited the big city for the first time. I saw a lot of cool stuff, but the best part was meeting a number of the folks that post here and chatting and hanging out with George, Eric, Marty, and Mike Miller.

There was an interesting booth with three very healthy leather halter clad women would give you a T-shirt if you submitted to a shock from a stun gun. Amazingly enough, there were a number of takers. (picture an Army Golden Knight flopping on the ground). He must have gotten shocked so much because of the large brass ones he must have!

I watched a USO rep hit a scope repeatedly onto a tabletop like it was a hammer driving a nail without damage. Talk about tough! Yikes!

I got a chance to chat with Mike Rock when he was hanging out at George's booth. He is a very unique genius! A purist at heart and no bull.

More later..

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 17:18:33 (ZULU)

I attended Front Sight last Sept for their 4 day defensive handgun class. We had 42 people in that class. We split the class in half with each group going to seperate ranges. We never had less than 4 instructors on the range, and usually 5 or 6. The class was conducted so that the more experienced shooters didn't have to wait on the less experienced shooters to catch up. Everyone said they advanced their shooting skills. I know I did. The ranges were nice. Turning targets, lots of shade, water and Gatorade provided. The school provides a Continental Breakfast on the first day of class. You need to bring a lunch. It's about 30 miles back to Pahrump, so that won't work.

Overall, it was a good experience, and I recommend it. Get on the Frontsight email list, and you can save some bucks with special offers. I managed to get a 50% discount certificate, and was going out west anyway so it was a good deal for me.

Now I got a question for you Roster Hogs. Has anyone attended StormMountain's Handgun Courses, or CQB Courses?

Thanks,

Bill Bledsoe

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 17:22:35 (ZULU)

Please forgive my ignorance, I 'm just a poor hillbilly.

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 18:20:41 (ZULU)

I got a bud that has a Steyr Sniper Rifle. He put a McMillan stock on it, and didn't bed it. It is a really tight fit. Accuracy improved.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 18:32:56 (ZULU)

Marco:  According to the email I received she is a widow who's husband was some kind of diamond barron and she has $23 million she's itching to spend on a young stud like you.  I would'nt hesitate for a minute if I were you.  

Question:  Any one here anything more on that 50 cal sniper rifle found in Utah?   Can't wait to here the outcome of this.   A little bird keeps chirping democrate, democrate, democrate.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 18:36:41 (ZULU)

Not on this "young" stud. Maybe Lito might like a 23 million dollar mistress....

;)

And about the little bird you keep hearing...i heard it too, but it kinda more sounded like it was screaming from the top of its lungs; "TJILLUHP rosieodonnel TJILLUHP".

More serious,

just love this RCBS 5 station case prep center, lets me prep lots more cases than if you were to do them by hand, outside/ inside-deburring, flashole deburring, primerpocket uniforming, primerpocket cleaning...anything to keep the blisters away, always was the sensitive type...

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 20:05:50 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info. I am going to try and attend some courses at SMTC this year. Will start with some handgun courses, and then move to the CQB, and HRP course.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 20:36:38 (ZULU)

I got one you might enjoy. I thought you all could stand something on the light side, and this is a no shitter.

A fellow law enforcement Captain in a fairly rural county in North Carolina, has his own method of making sure he is ready for a call-out. When the "balloon goes up" he admits to stopping along the way and taking a shot on a state stop sign to check his zero. He says it's something he feels he has to do. I tried to convince him with his quality gear that if he keeps good data he will be alright. I also have conformation from other officers in his jurisdiction of the nice little dots in the middle of the O or P in STOP throughout the county.

I diffinitly don't recomend this practice, but it makes him feel better.

Thought you all would get a charge out of that.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 20:51:33 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info.  Based upon what you guys have told me and from a couple of other boards, Front Sight is good to go.  Think I might just pass up the Free Subgun and take a regular course to make a longer trip out of it.  I saw some discounted certs on gunbroker.com like the one you described using so that might be the way to go.  Thanks!

Only308

Only308 <only308@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 21:01:05 (ZULU)

The recent talk about 20MOA bases got me thinking.  I have a Badger 20MOA base on my Rem 700P for the M3LR to sit on.

If I seriously decide to pop for another M3LR for the M1A, would I not also need a 20MOA base for that setup?  Currently, there is a Brookfield mount on the M1A.  Would the Brookfield allow the M3LR to reach out to 1,000 yards?

If not, what 20MOA bases are available for the M1A?

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 00:02:44 (ZULU)

....A fellow law enforcement Captain in a fairly rural county in North Carolina, has his own method of making sure he is ready for a call-out. When the "balloon goes up"....

Thats where the tenths of a mile on the tripmeter of the squad come in handy. .6 mile for long range checks. :)

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 00:09:25 (ZULU)

Thanks for the response.  I hadn't thought about that.

Still looking for any information on the Rock Island Armory .45s?????????

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 00:28:11 (ZULU)

++++++

Little David comes home from first grade and tells his father that they learned about the history of Valentine's Day.  "Since Valentine's Day is for a Christian saint and we're Jewish," he asks, "will God get mad at me for giving someone a valentine?"

David's father thinks a bit, then says, "No, I don't think God would get mad.  Who do you want to give a valentine to?"

"Osama Bin Laden," David says.

"Why Osama Bin Laden," his father asks in shock.

"Well," David says, "I thought that if a little American Jewish boy could have enough love to give Osama a valentine, he might start to think that maybe we're not all bad, and maybe start loving people a little bit. And if other kids saw what I did and sent valentines to Osama, he'd love everyone a lot.  And then he'd start going all over the place to tell everyone how much he loved them and how he didn't hate anyone anymore."

His father's heart swells and he looks at his boy with newfound pride.

"David, that's the most wonderful thing I've ever heard."

"I know," David says, "and once that gets him out in the open, the Marines could blow the shit out of him."

+++++

I laughed hard....  :)

L8R,

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 00:35:25 (ZULU)

I use the BPT scope mount on my M25 too. That mount can be sort of a pain to set up, until you figure it out. I found a way to set it up so that I got 15 MOA of elevation built into the mount. With the Leupold Mark4 M1 I got enough elevation for 1,000yds. Not familiar with the Leupold M3LR, but it would probably be enough.

If you're installing the mount on the rifle just rotate the lever on the side mounting bolt all the way to the rear. This will put the rear of the scope mount against the dove tail for the stripper clip, and will add elevation by tipping the mount down. It also seems to help keep the mount centered for windage too. I had exactly 15 additional MOA, and was only 1 MOA off from mechanical zero on the windage. I use a "dab" of blue loctite on the rear screw in the stripper clip guide. I use a soldering iron to break it loose when I need to remove the mount.

P.S.

I should have said that the lever on the side mounting bolt should be pointed up when you install it. It will fit either up, or down.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:01:56 (ZULU)

Thanks for the humor. We laughed our butts off on that one!

Best Regards,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:03:30 (ZULU)

Charley

Charley <cmeng@yahoo.com>
KY, - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01