Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:02:50 (ZULU)
I never made the reference, Steve Uhall, hockeyref from SC. Sheesh, I call myself a livid hockeyfan, wingers rule!!. I hope it works out well. Don't worry, I'll still make those barrels, but from a different address, eh! You made my day with that barrel, Steve. It was fun, for a change...
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:03:24 (ZULU)
Is the Badger / GA Precision booth the official Rosterfarian LZ?
Will there be adult beverages offered if we know the password?
Alternate LZs?
-------------------------
For those interested, I will be teaching the following classes in the main casino after the show each evening:
"High-Speed-Low-Drag CQB Wallet Clearing Techniques".
"Creating the Undetectable Crap Table Hide".
"Slot Machine Ballistics: Dope 'em - Dial 'em - Dump 'em".
"Reading Sports Betting Video Screens at Extreme Long Distances".
Thanks,
Fred
Fred <ohc1@pacbell.net>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:03:48 (ZULU)
Okay - Andre and I have conversed offline and got some issues ironed out. Andre has agreed to replace the lights that were shot out and all may go forward from here.
Hogs - this place is good for debate, learning, chatting, and an occasional bitch slap when needed. Let's just all remember to be good folksen.
thanks,
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:04:24 (ZULU)
I now have ProEars Pro Mag(npr26) and hadPro Ears Slim(npr21) they both work great lowering loud noises while letting regular sound thru The problem I have with them is that they do not seal tightly around my ears like regular muffs. I talked with ProEars about this and they did not understand the problem. The best way is to try different brands before you buy.
Charlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
Ann Arbor, Mi, Usa - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:24:01 (ZULU)
Thomas in 29 stumps,
Been waiting 3 years for mine now.(oh boy, here comes the flak from the roster hogs)
If he ever picks up the phone I am backing out.
Anybody want it?
Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 01:53:52 (ZULU)
Wondering how folks clean out behind the action bolt locking lugs. I drag a large, dry patch around back there with a plastic pick (no solvent to drip into the action) but it never seems to get real clean. Must be another way.
Fed 210M primers:
In case anyone is interested - just switched from CCI 200 primers to Fed 210M. POI dropped 1/2 MOA @ 200 yds.
Rambling:
Wish I heard about the loc-tite thing sooner. Riding Harleys for most of thirty years put me in the habit of using the blue on most everything. Guess we'll see what happens when the time comes.
Obeyed the first law of teaching in the getto today. Came home in one piece.
Thanks for all the insight.
Teacher
D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Too Far East, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 02:45:21 (ZULU)
Well, against better judgement and in the interest of experimentation I ordered a Night Force 20moa one piece base for the new Winnie. Ve shall see how it does with the Badger rings! Winchester, Leupold, Badger, Night Force, McMillan, Harris, Undude Sling. Damn, folks gonna think I made this thing up at a scrap yard!
Combat Missions reminds me too much of Survivor. I was never in the service but I tell you that we did better maneuvers and ambushes when I was playing army in the woods behind the house as a youngun.
LOL on CDC!
Doesn't play well with others"___________Mrs. Samms (first grade teacher)
My standard report card sentence was "talks too much"!
Time for cereal, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 03:19:29 (ZULU)
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 03:45:07 (ZULU)
keith <bucklins@earthlink.net>
Waynesboro, va, usa - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 04:57:50 (ZULU)
There are a couple of companies, Sinclair International (http://www.sinclairintl.com/) and Midway USA (http://www.midwayusa.com/) to name a few that sell tools for the job. Basically they are rods that hold dental packings cotton rolls that will wipe out the bolt raceways and lug recesses.
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 05:06:35 (ZULU)
Three years... THREE YEARS... that's nuttin'!
I knew an ol' timer that ordered one, and his grandson just took delivery ;)))
-
D. Wiede... on cleaning behind the lugs?
Take the standard "Male person's scientific approach to dirt"... if you can't see it, it ain't there... but if you have to clean it, Midway, and Sinclair have cleaning tools that are a plastic rod with a cross cut in the front that take a tampon like mop about 1 1/4" long, the you twist it behind the lugs... does a pretty good job... also a degreaser like "Gun Clean", and compressed gas (like the cans you get at the photostore" work well too.
What you teach... where you teach it?
-
Keith...
Varget doesn't burn dirty, it is one of the cleanest burning powders there is. There are a lot of variables in loading... try to narrow them down.
Don't be disappointed if you don't get perfect in the beginning... there is an art to it.
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 11:06:17 (ZULU)
I'm on my way to the SHOT Show in a couple hours.
Ah, the Mother of all gun shows.....
Hopefully my M1LR will be waiting for me with the new reticle and Kill Flash when I return.
See ya!
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 12:52:49 (ZULU)
Glad to hear the M25 is a keeper. Ha! Like I didn't know that already. What mount are you using? Never heard of one that would jam, because of scope mounts. I got the BPT mount on mine. Never a problem.
You might be able get a couple ejector springs, and do some trimming one coil at a time, and see if that changes the angle that the brass leaves the reciever. If it doesn't help, you still got the original spring to re-install. Also, a different recoil spring might make a big difference too.
Later,
Bill B
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 15:55:31 (ZULU)
to all that drop in on the SHOT show, enjoy, I sure wish I would be there this year too. But to much work in the new biddness. The Paul Company should have some good deals on Parker Hale cleaning Rod´s.
Picked up 1200 rounds of .223 green tip with double core and 1000 rounds of 7.62 today. Come tommorow afternoon it will be gone.
I will run a G-36 and G-3 ZF (scoped) shoot with the Reserves tommorow. I have a 300 Meter Range and the KD targets. Should be fun if the weather holds.
Pete L do you read this ?????? beats sitting in a dark forest at night does it ? But YOU have to paint the house ! Harrr !
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 16:18:52 (ZULU)
I have purchased and watched the American Gunsmithing Institute video on Glass Bedding and think I understand the process as they explain it. With the video came a Brownells Acraglas Gel kit. However, the video only detailed the process for a full bedding to include the barrel channel. From the commentary on the site and what I have read, the barrel should remain free floating.
The questions I have are:
1. What is a safe degreaser to use that won't damage the parkerized finish or the stock?
2. How far forward of the recoil lug should I glass, if at all? Or just the receiver parts that are currently contacting the stock?
3. I have heard some complaints about the Rem recoil lug. Any benefit to replacing, and if so can I do it and what are the recommended part(s)?
4. Any advantage besides convenience to using spray release agent (which I do not have) versus the brush on agent that came in the kit?
5. I have heard some commentary on mixing a metallic component in with the glass. Why is this and would it help me?
6. How do you keep glass from oozing up the barrel channel where you don't want it?
7. How much clearance should the barrel have in the channel? The barrel is not centered in the barrel channel and one side is so tight that a dollar bill barely fits through. It has been suggested that 2 business cards is the right amount. Will the glass bedding raise the barrel enough to get the proper clearance?
8. What do you recommend to dye the barrel channel with once I sand it down to obtain the proper clearance?
9. What else am I missing or do I need to know?
Thanks for any advice and suggestions you might have.
'Lito I know that you said you would email me responses to my questions, but thought other newbies might benefit from a discussion on the board and advice you and others might provide.
William M.
William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 17:01:13 (ZULU)
A couple days ago you mentioned having a small survival kit on the LCE. What would you put in it??
Bolt:
Do you have your webb gear reconfigured yet? What's the final mag count??
danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 17:39:51 (ZULU)
I think it was a good move on your part to let Andrea back in. In my opinion he was not flaming anyone, only expressing his opinion and trying to defend or explain it. (Like it or not) Like has been said so many times, its not always easy to get the right meaning of what is written.
We don't all have to agree with each other and as long as there are no personal flames you shouldn't be thrown out. I know Pete did give a warning and maybe in the future it will help people to know you guys mean business. Well done!!! Just my opinion.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 17:41:47 (ZULU)
M-24 SNIPER rifle, current US Army special operations sniper weapons system. Complete with issue optics, built by Army special operations armorer, $3,300. 805-896-6212
Have a good one fellas,
drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 17:50:04 (ZULU)
I have the data sheet in front of me, didn't get to check for the scan as I was on the ice last night.
75 grain bullets:
#2279 BTHP Ballistic coefficient - .395
#22792 A-MAX Ballistic coefficient - .435
There is some load data also. I will check for the scan as soon as I get a chance.
Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Having a Monday, in South West PA, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 18:47:49 (ZULU)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6177-2002Jan31.html
"What specifically are we to do during the gestation periods, before the weapons of Iran, Iraq, and North Korea come to term?" In this take on the same question, William Buckley appears to be asking for a little less talk and a lot more action. He'll get it.
http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley020102.shtml
Saudi politics 101. This is fundamental to all that's going on and this is a good presentation.
http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_comment/nr_comment020102.shtml
State sponsors and facilitators of terrorism are attacking Bush's state of the union speech. The Bush people aren't backing down.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5968-2002Jan31.html
General background on the domestic security threat and the administration's approach to dealing with it.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020201-73582983.htm
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 19:09:48 (ZULU)
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 19:14:02 (ZULU)
Not really a discussion for an open forum.... email me at medicjim86@hotmail.com, maybe an informal disussion group via email...I have a few thoughts on the subject.
President Bush asked for 4000 hours of volunteer service over a lifetime.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 19:27:14 (ZULU)
I wouldn't have thought you could miss that connection after the emails we've exchanged on the JB paste. Now that I have one of your barrels and before I decide defile it with that stuff are you gonna let me in on your findings??? I remember about a month or so ago you scoped another hogs barrel and saw a "tell tale sign" of abrasive use. Don't recall that you elaborated on it.
John Holliger function tested it with 77 smk's and 90 vld's, said the groups at 100 yards with his "standard loads" were decent but the range was too short to be conclusive. His loads are VERY similar to where I hoped to end up so..... He figured that a couple 3 shot and clean cycles should be all the beak in it'll need. I'll keep you posted on how she does.
Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
waithing for the weather to arrive, in South West PA, Just north of By Gawd!, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 19:56:56 (ZULU)
>... From the commentary on the site and what I have read, the barrel should remain free floating.
1. What is a safe degreaser to use that won't damage the parkerized finish or the stock?
Paint thinner is very good, and won't effect stock finishes (except hand rubbed oil finishes)... don't slop it around... just clean the places inside the stock that will receive the glass.
2. How far forward of the recoil lug should I glass, if at all? Or just the receiver parts that are currently contacting the stock?
As I have said before, I started out glassing the first 1 1/2" of the barrel (about 35 years ago), but don't anymore. Now I glass from the lug, back... sometimes just the front of the action from the lug to the mag well, depending on the kind of stock it is.
I find it works better for me, but it is arguable (and I won't argue it!)... as this glassing thing is an art, and if you ask ten 'smiths, you will get thirteen different answers.
There are probably guys that will argue it the other way.
3. I have heard some complaints about the Rem recoil lug. Any benefit to replacing, and if so can I do it and what are the recommended part(s)?
NO!.. there is no benefit to you in replacing it... there is a real benefit to replacing it to the 'smith... the price of the replacement, plus the barrel has to be set back, re-threaded, and re-chambered, and the stock will have to be machined to accept the lug. If you are getting a new barrel, then it is an option if you want (but it won't improve anything).
4. Any advantage besides convenience to using spray release agent (which I do not have) versus the brush on agent that came in the kit?
Yes... the spray will get into places that the brush on can't... also the spray is a different stuffie, and it workie more betterer.
5. I have heard some commentary on mixing a metallic component in with the glass. Why is this and would it help me?
This can be an advantage, or not. Standard stocking glass has about a 1% shrinkage factor, and to the beginner, this can be a life saver, cuz the action will pop out easily afterwards. The metal based glass (doesn't make any difference which one), has 0% shrinkage, and it is a bitch to remove the action from the stock, because there is no clearence. As to accuracy, there is no noticable difference.
6. How do you keep glass from oozing up the barrel channel where you don't want it?
You can't... it will go any place it can, and all over the place... make a clay dam at the place where you want it to stop, but lay in 3M masking tape in the barrel channel, cuz it will run over the dam... also put masking tape around the sides of the stock, and in the mag well, cuz the glasscan get into this places too. Assume the worst, and use lots of tape, and lots of clay!!
7. How much clearance should the barrel have in the channel? The barrel is not centered in the barrel channel and one side is so tight that a dollar bill barely fits through. It has been suggested that 2
business cards is the right amount. Will the glass bedding raise the barrel enough to get the proper clearance?
No... the glass bedding won't do anything for that... it will just ooze out of where things are tight.
Do this... Taking the 3M masking tape, lay a piece across the front of the fore-end about 3" or 4" from the front of the stock, some where near the front sling swivel... then tape the trigger guard in place under the stock.
Then take the STRIPPED barreled action (without the trigger, no magazine, etc, and put it in the stock with the rear screw only... just a little snug. look at the front of the stock... move the barrel into the center of the channel, so the space is the same on both sides, and the bottom... (it will be more than 2 business cards)
(you want the barrel centered in the channel, not to have to file the channel to fit the off-set barrel!)
the off set is caused by irrigularities on the surface of the front of the aluminum cradle in the stock... when you look at this, you will see it is a pretty rough machining... so of it maybe due to a slight misalignment of the aluminum block at the time of manufacture...
Get a dremel tool, or a round ball file for a 1/4" drill, and start cutting aluminum away from the side that is pushing the action off center... do a little, and try it... repeat until you can center the barerel (so the space is equal on the sides, and bottom of the channel), with a littls play so the barrel can droop a little down.
Now start placing pieces of masking tape across the first one, and build up a cradle of tape, until you have a thickness that will settle the barrel into a position in the center of the channel...
What you want to wind up wiht, is the action held by the back screw, and the barrelsupported by the tape cradel in the front, and the action not touching the aluminum bloac in front of the mag well... you can check this with a piece of paper.
8. What do you recommend to dye the barrel channel with once I sand it down to obtain the proper clearance?
The stuff is black inside, so no dye is necessary, but if you center the barrel, you won't have to sand anything.
9. What else am I missing or do I need to know?
Probably most of your marbles for reading this site;))
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Friday, February 1, 2002, at 20:08:22 (ZULU)
right, time to let the mut out of the jeep for a crap.. Duh! there's that word again, now you got me at it, she'll be biting me next.
Torsten, I can't paint anything yet, first I have to strip the old wall paper off, fit new windows, tiles, bathrooms and kitchen, finnish extension(and start it)and all that before April 1st when we move in, looks like my time is pretty well accounted for over the next months,and the wife turned my down on my suggestion for the colour scheme in our bedroom, British DPM cammo, damn ! I only get time for hunting when Im away at work, and whats wrong with sitting in the dark woods all night? Its my idea of fun!
Was out allnight last night, I could hear pigs and one was circling the stand I was up, but the damn wind was blowing and it swirls around in that particular spot, the old hog was very carefull not to show him self under the moonlight and stayed in the thickets not giving me a shot and as soon as his nose confirmed his suspisions he was gone. Damn I hate the wind and I wish these damn pigs weren't so bloody nocturnal, because stalking them is more fun, but a bitch to do in darkness,
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 21:55:23 (ZULU)
I am loading a light fast load in my .308, 110gr Hornady V-Max. The buttet is very short so I will be nowhere near the max OAL.
On my 175MK loads I have aprox .250" contact between bullet and the neck of the case at 2.815 OAL.
My question is: Is there a minimum bullet seating depth (bullet to neck contact) that any of you start out with on new loads. My OAL is going to be determined by the ammount I seat the bullet into the case and I am not sure where to start.
Any help will be mucho appreciated
Dave
Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 23:27:30 (ZULU)
Jerry
Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 23:49:30 (ZULU)
Thanks
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, February 1, 2002, at 23:52:19 (ZULU)
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 00:05:19 (ZULU)
any one got a Mcmillan GPH stock(General Purpose Hunting the one the Marines used to use) in woodland cammo for a S/A Rem 700 laying around they don't mind parting with, I need one for a little project. Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 00:05:45 (ZULU)
By now the iron is hot and I hold it on our offending screw a minute or so and hey presto, screw comes out easy enough.
You should have seen the look of disbelief on the guys face when I handed him his prize possession back without a mark on it and screw loose. Imagine doing that with half the guys on here, you have em storming the basement to rescue their shooter.
We've chuckled about that poor guys facial expressions ever since.
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 00:27:40 (ZULU)
Bruce Robinson comes through! Just recieved my Mil-Dot License plate from Bruce. As advertised and super neat. I may frame it for my office. The added bonus was a cute little sticker with it that said;
"...got mildots?".
Had a chance to handle a Kelbly Hunter Class bench rest gun, smithed by Meiers, in .30/44MM. Gary is shooting 125 grain BIB bullets and scoring in the .1's consistently. Interestingly, in Hunter class the short .30's are outshooting the 6MM PPC pretty consistently. He's headed to the Bench Rest Nationals, at Whittington Center, this year.
Great, now there is something else to add to the want list...
Enjoy the SHOT Show, for those that are attending.
Took a fall today and landed on my wrist. Needless to say the wrist is back in the support and pain killers are in effect. Bit of a set back, but not to bad.
Have a great weekend, all.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR , USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 00:42:00 (ZULU)
tks MARIUS for the privelidge !
BROWN ,G. MACGREGOR <brownc@kos.net>
BATTERSEA, ONTARIO, CANADA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 01:26:18 (ZULU)
thomas schumacher <schmud0811@aol.com>
29 palms, california, united states - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 03:43:52 (ZULU)
I need the foolowing Tactical Shooter back issues if anyone can help me out:
1998: January, March, April, June, July, August, and September.
1999: January, March, June, July, August, September, November, and
December.
2000: May
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 03:50:23 (ZULU)
I need the following Tactical Shooter back issues if anyone can help me out:
1998: January, March, April, June, July, August, and September.
1999: January, March, June, July, August, September, November, and
December.
2000: May
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 03:50:40 (ZULU)
I teach high school science "deep in the heart of Baltimore". Teach biol all the time (my "subtle" approach works especiallly well on ninth graders)and usually physics. Right now its bio/chem. Recognized my calling late in life an got a biol degree. The school's population's 'bout 1500 and the getto part fills the need for high levels of excitement - can't believe I get paid to have this much fun. The down side is that admin etc. have their heads in a real dark place.
Paul
thanks for the loc-tite tip. Now I don't have to loose any sleep over that one.
Tony
Noticed your survival kit is equipped in case you "get lucky" - ever pay off?
D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 04:00:52 (ZULU)
The consensus is growing that Winchester has better out-of-the-box barrels and quality control.
Opinions on the above claims vary widely.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 04:02:32 (ZULU)
CDC has a good point in current quality control issues. Winchester probably has better out of the box QC and quality that the current Remingtons. That being said, I sold my .223 Stealth (Boltster just rolled his eyes) and am building a .22/250 custom on a older Rem 700 short action. I decided to use Rem 700's and want all my rifles to be of the same pattern.
Frankly, I'm no longer satisfied with factory offerings.
CDC is correct in his assessment. The shooter is the weak link. Buy the best you can afford and shoot the crap out of it...then build your dream rifle!
Please note, I AM NOT trying to get a Rem vs. Win thread going again. Both are good solid rifles. Your choice...
Buy the best optics, rings and bases you can and move forward from there...
Semper Fi,
Wes
P.S. We finish my .22/250 next Monday. Chris, STILL ahead of your project by 4 weeks!
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 05:05:24 (ZULU)
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 05:30:42 (ZULU)
Wes...
Did your fall set your shooting back any?
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 06:48:29 (ZULU)
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 14:07:20 (ZULU)
Pete Lincoln,
That was not a very nice thing to do, pretending to grind on a high-dollar rig;-) I'll bet it was worth a few chuckles though.....
Thomas,
Get a Savage 10FP, adjust the trigger and shoot. If you are really concerned with the stock, you can get a comparable stock to those on the Stealth and PSS and still have no more money in it than if you had purchased one of the others. Then when you shoot that barrel out, you can rebarrel it yourself. Like CDC said, unless you are paid from a different pay scale...........
Have fun in the "stumps."
When are we going to be able to make the Win vs Rem thing a Win vs Rem vs Savage thing??????????????????
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 16:08:25 (ZULU)
Learning more every Day
BD
JM <bigdog@texas-proent.com>
Nocona, TX, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 17:00:28 (ZULU)
To be able to use Mil hold off, you first have to know what your Come ups are at various ranges, and you have to know what a Mil equals in inches at that range also.
1MOA=1inch at 100
1MIL=3.6 inches at 100 and increases in increments of 3.6 for each 100 yards (Just like a MOA)
So..lets say you are shooting with a 100 yard zero on your rifle. ( using my comeups and mil holds for this example so guys...don't freak out)but you want to shoot at 400 yards.
For 400 yards you have to come up 8 MOA, which is 32 inches. A mil equals 14.4 inches at 400 yards, 32/14.4=app. 2.5 Mil hold. Simple once you get the hang of it. If you want to put this to application, drop me a line, I have a 1000 yard range not too far from you. Hope this helped.
Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 17:19:01 (ZULU)
Pete,
have you tried Desert DPM, thats peach colored, should be Ok for the beadroom.
Jerry,
green tip is a hard steel core tip with a lead base slug, all in a mild steel jacket.
Supose to give better penetration on thin armor and more energy transfer after breakup in soft skinned targets. Real thin armor I guess. Its our standard ammo for the G-36´s.
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
spring is here, with 65°F in, germany - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 17:44:30 (ZULU)
Trajectory drop in inches(prior mentioned hypothetical 32") x 27.77. That dividided by range in yards,gives mil holdover value.
32 x 27.77 = 888.64 That divided by range in yds. 888.64/400 = 2.22
Same results,just a different path to get there. Faster/easier for me to build a drop card,with that formula.
NOBODY <Kyle92@aptalaska.net>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 17:52:36 (ZULU)
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 18:10:03 (ZULU)
Reloading challenged, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 18:11:38 (ZULU)
I don't spend a lot time weighing cases, but when I am weighing for comparison between cases I do all the work first-primer pockets, debur flash hole, and trim to the same length. This way you are comparing apples to apples.
At this stage you can make assumption on case volume. This would be the point in the first place, to find consistant cases with the same volume.
Dave
Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 18:56:10 (ZULU)
If you want to be involved and have had a problem, please mail me off line with a description of the problem, how it was handled, how you were treated, etc. A name and number to go with it would lend credibility to the arguement. I will pass it along. I mentioned barrels being off center in the stocks, incomplete chambers, raceways with chunks cut out of them, mill marks from hell, crappy crowns, etc. They responded with the polite request above.
I have plenty of buddies that have had problems with Remington over the last 20 years. I own lots of Remington guns and 90% of the time I even have a Remington ball cap on. I am not trying to be a dick about it - just trying to get them to tighten up the QC. Fat chance.
PETER LINCOLN YOU PSYCOPATH ! The grinding story killed me. Sounds like some shit I would do. Hey, I may have a NEW line on that item you wanted. A Canuck SWAT cop called a day or two ago wanting a favor. I'll see what I can do for both you guys. May be a win, win for both.
Stood right next to Paul Howe (DELTA guy in Mog shootout) at the State SWAT conference for a few minutes. Didn't get to talk to him. He was teaching Hostage Rescue while I was in the Sniper classes. Big dude.
Watch your six guys,
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 19:26:54 (ZULU)
BUFF
BUFF <tiger_dog1998@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 20:22:15 (ZULU)
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 21:47:02 (ZULU)
Thanks for the explanation on the Badger.
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:00:29 (ZULU)
Brian... what is the website that the Remington guys are on.
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:01:39 (ZULU)
If I had to choose one I would go with George Gardner at GA Precision. He does excellent work and does it quick. You should get yourt rifle within a couple of months of order. I think there was someone on here or another board that got his rifle in about a month. If you go TBA then you'll be waiting at least 2 years for the rifle. That's their wait time. There has also been talk of QC problems. I've also tried to get ahold of Mike to ask a question and never got any return e-mails or phone calls after a few tries. I don't like that. I don't have any direct dealings with NorCal but heard they do very good work also. All the rifles are about the same cost so that shouldn't be a factor. Read the reviews about ther GA Precision Rock rifle in the review section.
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:15:23 (ZULU)
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/856fcmtf.asp
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:22:59 (ZULU)
Thanks and sorry for the redundant question.
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 22:56:35 (ZULU)
got a question concerning computer ballistic proggies;
we noticed that the comeups for my friends stealth are always 1 or 2 moa to low compared to what the ballistic data says, while the comeups for my HBV are always wright on the money, for instance if the proggies says i need 21 klicks for 300 meters, it turnes out that is exactly the amount of clicks i need for my HBV.
Can this be because my friend has got a 20 moa canted badger base, and so that might be the reason why the computer proggie is always wrong for the stealth and wright for the HBV, cause i do not have a canted base?????If so, is there a ballistic proggie that also calculates up for weapons with a 20moa canted base??
'Lito,
is it possible that 155 grainers are to light for the Winnie's 1-12 twist? Cause up till now the 155's are shooting crappy at 100meters, while they got a much better bc and a much higher muzzle velocity then for instance the sierra 175 or the lapua 167 grainers.
(up till now the 167 have given the best performance in the Winnie)
Sarge, like Pete said, i got the B&L on my Winnie, but only got pictures of it mounted, none really close-up yet, if ya want i can make some for you, mail me if you do.
Bolt,
i personally weigh my cases, always after i have done the trimming, flashole deburring and primer pocket uniforming. From aprox 300 cases i get 50 left of which are the same weight and these i use for competition. Don't know for sure if this is what helps, but i noticed that i perform best when i have done all my tricks on my cases, and that includes weighing them.
Wes, take care with your hand and wrist, how did your second intervieuw go?
Pete,
unbelievable, but me and my m8s actually are thinking of stepping away from Nightforce and are even contemplating to look for S&B pmII's!! What is this world coming to...Serious, your last words about cm's vs moa kinda hit a nerve with us, it makes calculating so much easyer,well for us Eurotrashh anyway....;) Can you sum up the different types S&B got, which kind of reticles are possible, how many come-ups they got, and which one you would advise for long range shooting? (if possible including the prizes you can get for them at your friends gun shop?)
Questionmarked,
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 23:26:25 (ZULU)
Toothpaste in their asses?!
I thought Pepsodent got rid of the yellow! :-)
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 00:25:25 (ZULU)
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 00:44:27 (ZULU)
Hit jarheadtop.com and get Sgt Owens book on the military sling. You can use the military sling as a cuff sling legally in service rifle. A dedicated cuff sling doesn't meet the milspec.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 01:08:10 (ZULU)
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 01:22:29 (ZULU)
Since I don't have optics for the M1A yet and I didn't feel like dismantling the Loopy from the bolt gun, I broke down and scarfed my Colt Delta scope off of the AR and stuck it on the beast.
Using Fed 175 GMM, the cold bore shot at 100 yards was, well, about 24" high.
Seems I forgot the scope was zeroed for 300 yards with 5.56. Duh!
After some major clicking down, I managed to find the little orange circles and went to work. I shot 12 five shot groups that all came in just at or under 1MOA. Three of the groups were .75MOA.
All shots taken off the M2 bipod and left hand under the butt. Looks like I have a keeper here, especially if I get decent glass and a Harris on it.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 01:57:30 (ZULU)
Got to put in a plug for Nor-cal Precision. As a extremly satisfied user of his rifles I have found nothing better. To be fair though, I would have no problems recommending Gardner from all the good reports from others. That's it though from your list...
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 02:37:00 (ZULU)
Tomorrow, we meet at 0800 for training at our 600 yard range. Just three of us and the range all to ourselves in the morn...
Another compadre has a 1,000 yards on his ranch in the valley. We are set for this year.
I'm taking my M40A1 clone and my to LE buddies are bringing Rem 700 PSS's. We are going to work from 100 yards back to 600, including movers. Unless, that is, someone shows up and wants to share the range. Probably not in poor this weather.
Speaking of weather...typical Oregon. Sunny/broken overcast today. Tomorrow, wait and see every five minutes.
Wish me luck...this is my first time shooting since the operation almost 3 weeks ago...just a test. If it goes OK I'm IN!
Monday, we finish the .22/250! I can hardly wait!
Take care, all. Hold Hard!
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 02:51:40 (ZULU)
Science
Been weighing cases and comparing by checking case capacity. Using New unused Federal Match Brass I have here in stock (Source, unfired Olympic surplus)
Test
I micrometered each case for exact length.(they were all very very close no detectable difference in length in this lot. No flash hole work or neck turning was involved. Cases weighed and compared weight against capacity to hold small grained pistol powder.
Conclusion: the heaviest cases and the lightest ones compared with no detectable difference in capacity at all with a measurable tolerance to about .05 grains.
Caution; This does not say that all cases that weigh different don't have different capacity but it does convince me that weighing cases is not very conclusive as to the capacity of the inside of the case.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 03:12:43 (ZULU)
Anyone know where I can get a decent amount of once fired LC 5.56 brass for cheap?? I'm looking at Bartlett Reloading
http://www.gibrass.com/brass.html
Is there a better way out there?? I'm looking to keep the same headstamp if possible, but these are for highpower rounds, and until I'm better, new expensive cases are not really neccessary.
Wes,
I'm envious of your shooting tomorrow. How did the comp work out?? I'm sure after all these years of shooting, you've got a highly trained trigger finger. It'll know what to do ;-))
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 03:30:27 (ZULU)
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 07:00:19 (ZULU)
The tapered bases have no effect on come-ups on a rifle. Are you guys using the same programs, and do you have the muzzle velocities accurate?
The 155 Palma (BC = .450) has almost the same BC as the 168 (BC = .460), but nowhere near the 175 (BC = .500)...
... the 155's shoot flat cuz you can drive them so fast.
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 09:17:47 (ZULU)
yup we are using the same program, and the muzzle velocities should be accurate enough, got them from shooting over the chronometer.
So the 20 moa you gain with the base, does not interfer with the amount of clicks a ballistic program reccomends you? Cause i would think that when the program tells you to go 21 klicks up, it will be different for a gun with a 20moa base than for one without...or am i comparing apples with oranges?
And about the 155, we are using the lapua scenar which has a bc of .508, can it be it is to light for the 1 in a 12 inch twist?? It gives us 1.5 moa groups, while the 167 gives us .75 moa average groups.
thnx,
Marco.
all you other B&L owners, be awere and hide your scopes, there is a B&L addict among us!! ;)
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
nl - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 12:47:16 (ZULU)
Okay - Okay - I will take the first step: Recognition - I admit that I always try to pick those up as they come by... Everyone that knows me knows that I have a few of these...
I was told that there was a support group for these type of illnesses....BTW -
Semper Fi
Ken
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 14:23:54 (ZULU)
I would venture to say that as long as the scope is mounted the same height above the bore line, the ballistic programs will be accurate because they are giving you your come ups from the 100 yard zero. The only thing the base is doing is allowing you to zero further up into the scopes internal adjutsment.
If I was using a flat base that was the same height as my badger, I would still require 43 MOA up to get me to my 1000 yard zero.. Problem would be, after zeroing my scope with a flat base, I would only have 27 moa internal adjustment, not nearly enough.
Hope I'm looking at this correctly,, if not some one will be along to correct me soon enough ;)))
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 14:26:48 (ZULU)
Consider the Savage 10FP. Adjust the trigger and find a stock to your liking and you've got a rig that is as good as a Remington or Winchester. Like Paul said, you can change barrels yourself, and the list of "serious, hard core" accessories is growing. I know that many don't like the look of the Savage rifles, but mine looks pretty good at 100m, 200m, 300m...:-)
KEB
Kevin <BeggsKE@raytheon.com>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 15:06:41 (ZULU)
thnx forthe info.
I think i got 576 clicks=144 moa with my B&L, if i'm not mistaking.
I dont have a 20 moa base on my HBV, my m8 has got one on his Stealth.
That's where the ? came from, i am always on the money and he is always one or 2 clicks low, compared to what the program says.
Ken,
What in the name of The Big All Mighty Long Range God Of .308's do you want with 7 B&L's????
I know they are great scopes, i really like mine, but to have seven of them, man, you must be a B&L tactical junkie/ addict, if you want i can give you the phone nr of B&L Anonemous.... ;)
Been trying to mail you about trading scopes, but unfortenately both your mail adresses keep bouncing back...
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 15:15:20 (ZULU)
Try to send the email again. I disabled the spammer blacklist for awhile. I need to see what ISP you're coming from. We get alot of spam from over there where you're at.
SSSSSHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! why did you let my secret out... Dang!
(Running from the dudes in the Leupold suites....)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 15:27:53 (ZULU)
Attention Ft. Benning sniper babies! Your booties are shining like little black flash lights! Saw the snippet on MSNBC, making snipers look good for a change.
Camo dem booties, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:11:23 (ZULU)
OK... same guns, same ballistic programs, (tapered mounts don't make a difference, read Chris' post!)... Are you guys using the same scopes, and same bullets.
If different scopes, then is may be that the internal adjustments may not be the same, and if different bullets, then one's BC may be in error.
----
The 155 Scenars are not too light for the 12" twist...
On the 155 Scenar, that's probably a typo. I strongly doubt that the BC is .508.... That would give it a higher BC than it's heavier brother, the 167 gr Scenar which has a BC of .470???
Even the VERY LONG 155gr Berger VLD's BC is only .484. The BC of the 155 gr Scenar is probably around .450 +/-.
With bullets of the same caliber, and same design, the lighter one has the lower BC.
Some manufactures adjust their BC's to match proprietery programs... so the BC won't match other bullets of similar design, or their bullets won't perform as expected, in other software.
-
Sir Wesley... What ever happened to the Mexican Mouser? Winter is the time for those projects.
-
Chris... don't waste your time looking for the same headstamp on LC brass, because they have about 2 trillion case making lines going at the same time, so the headstamps don't mean anything... just clean them up (sort them by weight if necessary) and shoot them.
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:14:19 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:23:34 (ZULU)
JM - Simply divide the 4.8 by 3.44 and you get 1.39 mils. You may round to nearest .25 mil, in this case 1.5 mils, or you may learn to hold a light 1.5 mils. Also while I applaud your precise nature for bullet drop to the .047th of an inch (1 moa equals 1.047 inches at 100 yards), you can do quick math by assuming 1 moa equals 1 inch for every 100 yards and then use 3.5 moa per mil. This would mean that the drop in inches is then divided by the yards in hundreds, this equals moa. Using Bobby's excellent example of 32 inches at 400 then 32/4 = 8 moa. Now there are 4 clicks to the moa, for your .25 moa sights, so again 4 times 8 equals 32 clicks on your sight and 8 divided by 3.5 equals 2.28 mils or 2.25 mils rounded. Doing this in the more precise manner would result in 4 times 1.047 equals 4.188 inches per moa. 32 inches divided by 4.188 equals 7.64 moa. 7.64 divided by 3.44 equals 2.22 mils or the same answer of 2.25 mils. Clear as mud?
OK shall end the math games for now. Wish I was at the Shot Show instead of getting ready the next course. Oh well missed this trip, the powers in charge sent two ohter guys instead little old me. :-(
Hold Hard Guys!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:34:03 (ZULU)
Tedious, very tedious, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:36:39 (ZULU)
about the 20 moa canted base ballistic program issue,
i am slowly getting the picture into my thick skull with the help of you and some other rosterfarians who have been mailing me bout it and am starting to understand it, i think...;)
About the 155 grain scenars...no typo Lito-san!
If one can doubt it, i do not know, do not have the experience to say if this is an impossible bc for such a light bullet.
But, according to the latest internet info from Nammo and what it says in their books, the 155 grain scenar GB491-4pl7073 (c) has a bc of .508, maybe only the 170 grains lockbase with a .525 bc might be more apropiate for sniping purposes. (or the 175 sierra for that matter)
So, once more, i do not know if this bc is exagurated by Lapua or not, but up till now i have found lapua always very reliable and accurate with their findings.
The 155 is a very long slim looking bullit,just as long as the 185 head, it only has got a more spitz snout.
A less puzzled Marco.
ps; Rick, i tried to keep up with your explantion, but all that math is i guess way over my simpleminded grunts head, only makes me want to buy a scope with cm clicks instead of moa even more. ;)
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:39:51 (ZULU)
If it's that long at 155gr, it will need the 12" twist... twist is determined by the length of the bullet, not the weight.
Are you two guys using the same scopes... to check if there is a tracking error... set up two paper targets at 100m that are about 1.5 meters high, and put an aiming point at the BOTTOM of the target. Then shoot 200 through 1000 come-ups using the same aiming point at the bottom, and see if the groups are at the same amount over the aiming point. if so, there is a tracking error in one.
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:51:34 (ZULU)
When you wanna get rid of that POS B&L, for a metric scope, let me know before Ken will ya ;))
Ken,
I'm just thinking of you... Part of the twelve step program is giving away those excessive B&L's to other, less addicted shooters.. Where do I sign up??
'Lito and Bill,
Thank you both for the case info.
Rick,
There's another post for my harddrive... Thank.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 16:54:28 (ZULU)
Dang man, you are making me show my age here! Your short math sure makes the long math easier! Just goes to show that you (As least I am) never too old to learn a new and simpler way! Thanks!
Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 17:00:34 (ZULU)
Got my damn Heym barrelsorted at last, looks like it was communication problems holöding the thing up,
Paul, i know it was mean worrying the guy with the expensive Drilling, it was worth $15000, but as the Germans say, Spaß muß sein, or fun must be...
Brian, in 89 all I had to do for the canuk wings was jump out of a perfectly servicable airplane, right now I'd kill for some, I heard the canuk paras where disbanded?
Marco, Ill mail you with the rundown on the S&B PMII, I get em trade + 16%tax+5% markup for my mate, I don't add a thing, (what a nice guy eh?)the 20 MOA base just gives you more UP, like viagra, and screw the balistics program, its just a start point or guide, each rifle shoots different and so do many shooters, the only way is to shoot it, my 30-06 was shot often at every 25 metres up to 650m untill i verified the zero and elevation, I did this before I even knew how to turn a computer on.
Now for the BAD NEWS, Any one got a used diesel jeep engine they don't realy need, I blew my mother F----er yesterday, looks like that will cap any experiments and projects for the next months.
Oh, If I never see any more wall paper, It 'll be too soon..
Pete
Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 18:37:43 (ZULU)
nope, were diferent scopes, mine a B&L his a Leup M3.
I now understand that the canted base does not matter, still gonna try your 1,5 meter paper target thing to check our own come-ups next saturday
thanks.
Pete, S&B is looking better and better.
But still haven't made up my mind yet.
Looking forward to compare the plusses and minusses from the NXS's, S&B's and even some Leupies.
Get that old fart that drove you of the road to start paying you...blimey, don't you think if you stick your Heymbarrel under his nose that he will come through?? Hmm what am i saying, don't think that at school this is considered incorruptible...
Back to studying the law,
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
Nl - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 20:12:25 (ZULU)
Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 21:05:07 (ZULU)
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 21:51:49 (ZULU)
Thanks for the advice on the bag, I'll give Eagle a look. I would appreciate it if you could findout the other make as well. I like to get as much info as I can before I buy.
Looks like you got yourself a little hobby there, 'Roster-Spotting'. You've racked up a load of names already. Do you have to wear an anorak and go every where with a flask of tea ;-).
Pete Lincoln,
I want to publicly thank you for organising the boar hunting trip and running me around. It was a pleasure to meet you and I know we will see a fair bit more of each other. By the way, I'm so hooked on the German experience I've cleaned out my garden shed, put in some windows and added a couple of planks for a bed. Unfortunately the local council planning regs won't let me put it on 5m stilts, so I'll have to make do. When it's full moon I'm going to go and sleep in it and recreate the whole thing. Best thing is I'll see just as many boar and it won't cost me a penny ;-).
Jon
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 22:17:34 (ZULU)
Bobby - Being 54 I know what you mean by never being too old!
Nobody - You are working in too large of numbers, use .2777 as your first multiplier and then divide by range in hundreds. 32 x .2777/4 gives the same answer and is easier on my old head. actualy I like my way as it is easier still on my old head. Of course 32 x 27.77 divided by 4 mils gives the range to the 32 inch object miled out at 4 mils in yards. :-)
Dang, that was fun, and I said no more math today! Brain now in cramp land!
Hold Hard guys!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 22:56:00 (ZULU)
Ken, another mail bounced so i send it to the other mail adress you gave me.
Rick,
I really do not want to start another inches versus cm's /metric thread again, but you write; "BUT! when you want to know how many cm there are in 5 moa at 600 meters then you have to add a step"
If i were to buy a cm scope like the S&B, than why would i want to know how much 5 moa is at 600 meters?? With a scope that works in cm's i'd never again have to use the term moa...or am i overlooking an important factor once again?
Thnx,
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 23:16:04 (ZULU)
Seems that while the rest of you are crashing cars, cajoleing poor helpless S&B reps, and such, I have been out SHOOTING!
Met my LE buddies at the range at 0800. We set up and were ready to shoot by 0900. Checked their zero's and come ups. One had been given come ups that would have put him over the targets at 600 yards.
My 600 yard group was 3"...
Once all was squared away we moved back to 600 and got solid zero's for the gents at that range. Both shot Rem 700 PSS's and did quite well. My M40A1 Obermeyer gun held the X when I did my part.
We moved in to 300 and then 200 shooting bullseye tragets and movers.
I was getting solid "kill shots" on the movers and shooting out the X rings on the bullseye targets.
All in all a good day. The hand/wrist smarts a bit, but is OK. Next Saturday I shoot my first Sniper match at Tri-County Gun club. May shoot .308, but probably my 6.5 X .284, as it shoots so much flatter.
All in all a GREAT Day. Weather even cooperated with no rain to speak of...
All the best...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, US of A - Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 23:45:58 (ZULU)
If it's 30" at 600 equals cm at 600 yrds, it would be 30" = 76cm... if it's 30" at 600yds equals cm at 600 meters, then it would be 30" = 83cm... can't find any 90's in there...
What did I miss??
-
A nice person named "Susan" sent this to me... it's from the Durham SC "Herald Sun" newspaper... it's them pesky "Sniper riffles" again!
=================================================
FEBRUARY 02, 21:40 ET
"Olympic Officials Find Sniper Rifle"
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) ? Olympic security officials were investigating the discovery of a sniper rifle and ammunition reportedly found in the mountains near the Park City Olympic area.
The Utah Olympic Public Safety Command confirmed Saturday that the .50-caliber rifle was found, but said it was "important to note the rifle was not near an Olympic venue."
The Standard-Examiner of Ogden reported the rifle was discovered five miles from the Olympic cross-country skiing venue at Soldier Hollow. A hunter found the weapon last Saturday, it said.
Tracy Hite, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, would not disclose where the rifle was found. Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt said he was told the weapon had no link to the Winter Olympics.
"It was rusted and did not appear to be operable," Leavitt said.
The type of weapon found is often used by military and police as a sniper rifle because of its power. It can hit a target a mile away.
The Standard-Examiner cited a report from the Wasatch County Sheriff's office that said the rifle was found in a green metal box marked "explosives" along with 386 rounds of ammunition.
A dispatcher with the sheriff's office said Saturday she had no information about the rifle.
Although security fears are high for the games, the only response by the combined federal-state-local security command for the Olympics was a three-sentence statement that the discovery was under investigation and that it did not happen near an Olympic venue.
Hite, though, refused to define what "near" meant.
===========================================================
How come I don't find no 50 BMG sniper riffles, and a hundred pounds of ammo, when I go hiking??
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 23:49:52 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 00:56:17 (ZULU)
Catshooter! - You got me confused on your question. I guess I was trying to throw too much in on a single thread. 30 inches does not equal 90 cm. That is a gimme. I was showing how our measurements would have been a simple 5 x 6 or 5 moa at 600 YARDS would equal 30 inches(approx). But they have 5 moa at 600 METERS and this causes a bit of a math fun thingy. 1 moa is 3 cm per 100 meters or 3 x 6 = 18 cm or 1 moa = 18 cm at 600 meters. Now 5 moa would be 5 times 18 cm = 90 cm total for 5 moa at 600 meters. It is easier for me to run the math that way then with the bullet drop as 72cm at 400 as I used at the end of the post. Again this is for computing mil hold overs to compensate for bullet drop. Direct translation from inches to metric is difficult as 1 moa equals 1.047 inches per 100 yards and 1 moa equals 2.xx cm per 100 meters (danged if I can rememeber the exact number of cm per 100 meters). This causes the 600 meters to become 656.4 yards. Now 5 moa at 656.4 becomes 5 x 1.047 or 5.235 x 6.564 = 34.36 inches. 90 cm would be 35.43 inches but that is accounted for in that 3 cm is more than what 1 moa equals per 100 meters. The common usage of 1 inch and 3 cm is for ease of use and memory. Still clear as mud!
I'm getting a headache! :-)
Hold Hard guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 01:09:40 (ZULU)
Not mine. If I tried nasty arithmetic like that I'd get something God awful. I'd find an easier way. A mathematician's first motivation is sheer animal laziness.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 01:21:40 (ZULU)
My guess is , if it exsists, it's an old M2, as I can't imagine anyone could get 200+ rounds of 50 off out of a Barret or bolt action. They'd carry them away, brains scambled like yesterdays eggs..
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 01:32:04 (ZULU)
Time to get serious for glass for the M1A. I've been looking at Springfield's scopes, particularly the GE5098 (4-14x56 mildot)and the GE5099 (6-20x56 mildot).
The GE5098 has something called "automatic bullet drop compensation." Is this the same thing as the Loopy M3LR "one spin of the dial" deal?
Then again, I really like the Loopy M3LR, so why shouldn't I put one on the M1A? Then I'll have the bolt gun and the gas gun (both 7.62) with the same optical system and won't have to retrain myself.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:10:43 (ZULU)
On my Rem PSS 308 I was thinking of going with a leupold. Maybe one with a BDC.
How does Fedral and BlackHills 175&180grain perform?
Any deer hunters out their that use 308 winchester?
Thanks,
Larry
Larry <lwebdell@gloryworks.com>
Ca, US - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:24:27 (ZULU)
Fred Hartman
Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
omaha, ne, usa - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:43:46 (ZULU)
Moe...
I have the Springfield, Gen 1 (GE5093) scope on my M21 (also Springfield Armory), and it's fine... the reticle is here:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-rngfd.shtml
There is a separate reticle "unit" for each range... and you can measure anything that is 3", 5", 10", 18" 24", 30", and 36"... so you have a lot of choices on target items to use for ranging...
Say you have an 24" target, you just go down the groups, until a "24" line matches your real target. When you find the line, you will know the range. That group will be right on the aiming point, and you shoot. No math, or calculators, no nuttin, you never take your eye from the eyepiece... and it has a built-in bubble level. The Gen 1 is the cheapest, and the most practical... you don't need target turrets, when the ranging, and "come-ups" are on the reticle.
-
I think you guys are right on the idea of the 50 being planted (by Diaz??)... anyone that wanted to use it, would have sealed it in a plastic cover of some kind, and put that in an aluminum case... and FIVE MILES AWAY... hello, is there any intelegent life in that state?
Even the very best 50 shooters, ain't that good.
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:46:53 (ZULU)
"50 Cal SWS found to be registered to Waxman aid." Now THAT would make sense. :-)
Only second alternative would be a Feinstein aide.
Good night guys and hold hard.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:55:07 (ZULU)
ditto with lito on the 155 scenar's, I don't think a 1/12" twist rate is too fast for 'em, it's all specific gravity and length of bullet which determines twist rate, not BC's. Actually I'd rather be a little fast than a little slow comin' out of the gate, in reference to twist. Biggest thing a 'too' fast twist rate does is strip yer jacket on lite bullets, but that would be way fast for your application.
Pat's take the Superbrawl, I suppose all youse folks in the NE area were just waitin' to avenge your last attempt(s). Good for them, eh, was a good year for the patriots, the football team and the rest of the US of A. Almost too fitting, eh.... That Adam Vinateri's from mrbullet and my home base, see, we SoDaks never sweat, take it to another level, hahah... Good game, best finish I've seen..
laaater eh
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 03:55:09 (ZULU)
Fred:
CF barrels have no place in the tac/comp shooting world as of yet, that I have seen. They are lighter, but the accuracy of these barrels are minimal. They do not, as of yet, hold their own to a steel pipe. I ran a few 'blanks' for Magnum Research CF barrels, and they might have had the best chance of makin' the cut for truly accurate barrels, but I didn't like the looks of 'em one bit. It's all in the sleeve, you gotta make the barrel just like any other barrel 'cept turn it down, contour the barrel, to ridiculously small diameters. This is the process where, even if you're making tac contour steel barrels, you can screw up major. You can bend the barrel with the tool pressure, relieve stress in the barrel where you don't wanna, heat up the barrel, it's not an easy go of things for normal production. But if you have to turn a 30 caliber barrel, rifled, to x<.500" straight, you are in for a ride, not much wall thickness. I would recommend CF barrels for the varminter only, right now. He's the one who is going to go thru a lot of rounds, and use small enough calibers to maintain some sort of wall thickness that MAY improve his chances on getting a straight barrel.
This is my opinion of the Carbon Fiber barrels I have seen, I could be dead wrong. But it's a barrel, like any other barrel, and I won't have one in my gun cabinet anytime soon.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 04:52:01 (ZULU)
Moe had asked and 'Lito responded about the Springfield scopes and is considering a Luppie M3. I'd say go Luppie over the Springfield. I have a M3 6X on my M25 and it's great. Still learning to use the thing, as I prefer turrets and MOA adjustments on my bolt actions...just a preference thing.
Larry, I'd go with 175's or Hornaday 178 A-maxes. Both shoot better than we can, in most cases. I use 175's for ALL my .308 shooting. That way I don't have other loads to dork with, zero's to change, etc.
Factory Black Hills 175's shoot well, too. I prefer to reload...gives a sense of satisfaction.
Agree with 'Lito and all on the .50 cal "sniper" rifle that was "found". It was trashed...no terrorist would leave it in that condition. My guess is it was stolen and/or unregistered and some one hid it out(stored poorly) and hadn't come back. I can't get into the .50 thing as there is no place to shoot the darn things most of the time.
On the 155 gr. Palmas...should stabilize beautifully in a 1:12" twist. Palma shooters are going to 1:13+, pushing them really hard, and using 29-30" barrrels. Me, I'll stick with 175's...;-)
All for now. I'm trying to get a ballistic comparison chart to print comparing my .22/250 with 55 grainers, my 6.5 X .284 with 142 grainers, and my .308 with 175 grainers. Having a devil of a time...
In case you're wondering, the 6.5 x .284 kicks butt.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 04:56:20 (ZULU)
The 30 Palma's have always confused me. Normally a barrelmaker would use a .3080 (plus or minus 5 ten-thousandth's inch) groove diameter for an accurate 30 caliber barrel. 30 Palma's are .3065" groove diameter. That would seem like a lot of upset to a .308" diameter bullet, and pressures usually skyrocket if you are over .0005" under the bullet diameter. Do they use extremely long freebores in the Palmas, or are the bullets of different diameter for the Palma team? Do they use this excess pressure for something beneficial? I don't understand why they use the twists or barrel dimensions they do, please let me know if you know. That's one area I haven't really covered...
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 05:30:37 (ZULU)
Fred Hartman
Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
omaha, ne, usa - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 14:40:30 (ZULU)
The reason for the tight bores in Palma/Fullbore was the bullet diameters used in the 7.62 NATO ammo. Outside the U.S., the game was played with "issue" ammunition. The bullets loaded in this ammunition were a bit undersize by U.S. standards and required tight bores.
There were really no "standards" for these barrels and fitting the various barrels for the game required a good selection of bore pilots. The tightest bores I've seen were on the hammered Enfield and Ferlach barrels. These could run (from recollection) as small as .306", and under.
In recent years, the standard for the Palma Match itself is a 155 Sierra loaded to 2.80" OAL. Throating is all over the landscape, but a half educated guess is that most throating will allow for about .020"-.025" jump.
Knowing what worked (and not wanting to find out what didn't), I stuck with the 1 in 13" .298"-.3065". The reasoning behind this is that most all the rifles that I barreled were traveling rifles and might be used with handloads one week and "issue" ball the next. This also required the chamber itself to be a bit on the large size. There have been those that tried to apply benchrest technology to Palma/Fullbore chambering.........The stories are as numerous (and interesting) as the neck dimensions on the ammo handed to the shooter!
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
COLD & WINDY SE, IL, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 15:12:52 (ZULU)
Thanks, Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 15:38:11 (ZULU)
http://www.frontsight.com/1day_smg_course.htm
Anyone taken any of the regular classes offered there?
Only308 <only308@hotmail.com>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 16:52:26 (ZULU)
Thanks for your helpful comments on glass bedding. Bedded the Rem 700P over the weekend. First time disassembling the weapon, so it was a lot of fun figuring out the trigger assembly and how everything fit together.
What was less fun was trying to figure out where the bind was in the stock that was causing the action to tilt left when the tang bolt was tightened. Removed some metal from various places, inclding the tang area, which helped some, but still did not completely solve the problem. I now understand the issue of round versus flat action surfaces mating to the stock. Finally just got to where I figured that was the best I could do and start glassing. Was somewhat surpried how little surface area there was to bed.
After seeing how relatively simple these weapons are I have no sympathy for Remington. They should be able to control their manufacturing process and tolerances very tightly. That they don't speaks volumes about management. Their product is perfect for applying statistical process control techniques.
Thanks again for your advice! Now comes the hard part - waiting a week for complete cure before I can shoot.
William M.
William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 17:06:33 (ZULU)
You can pull the action in 24 hours, and shoot it in 48.
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 17:26:48 (ZULU)
That fifty must have been there for a while. Leave your shootin' stick out over night here in good weather and it will look like a surplus store reject.
Anybody got any ideas for a canted scope base for a Savage short action?
FESTUS
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
anchorage , ak, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 17:51:35 (ZULU)
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 18:46:44 (ZULU)
Only308 <only308@hotmail.com>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 20:02:19 (ZULU)
Concerning your question on the carbon fiber/ceramic barreled SWS.
I got to shoot one of the Remington protos last year at Blackwater. Charlie Cutshaw from Janes brought it to show around and shoot. I shot it off a pack and from the 'pods. Yea, it's light and would be easy to hump, but without the weight it just didn't feel stable and was hard for me to hold hard with it. I would probably have to shoot it more, but I was not all that impressed. I guess I'm just used to having that weight out front. Ya know, an old dog.
I think JR is right on stay with steel.
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 20:09:05 (ZULU)
If you can hold out until say April, Dan Ross will have his 6-48 Optical Platform for a Savage short action ready. You can go with the Lightforce two piece base if you are in a rush. Both are for Mil-Std-1913 rings like Badger Ordnance and Leupold MkIV.
KEB
KEB <BeggsKE@raytheon.com>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 20:53:17 (ZULU)
I hunt with 308 in the Southeast and have taken several deer. Normally use Remington 150 or 180 cor-lok. Most of the time ranges are 150yds or less, with good shot placement I have had deer drop in their tracks. I was thinking of using my stick for some longer range hunting and developed a load with the 165gr Game Kings. I have shot them (on paper) to 500yds, with the same POI as my 168SMK load. I would not attempt to take an animal at that range but, it is nice to know what the load will do at that range.
Out,
TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 21:11:05 (ZULU)
I'm slacking off the news posting but this is an editorial on Bush preemptively using military force against "axis of evil." The foreign policy establishment is spooked. Screw 'em.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/858osfjg.asp
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 21:23:16 (ZULU)
Hold Hard guys
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 21:34:06 (ZULU)
Has anyone used this reticle? I have a George Gardner AR10 and I am looking for a scope. Trying to decide on a Leupold 4-14x50LR w/M1 knobs, 3.5-10x40 M1 LR or a 3.5-10x40 M3 LR. It will have a mil-dot, but don't know about the Gen 2 from Premier Reticle. Any suggestions. The rifle is a flat-top I have Badger ultra-high rings. I know a 40mm will fit, but will a 50mm have clearence also with BC flip-up caps THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 22:35:37 (ZULU)
Needle in a haystack search, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 23:33:17 (ZULU)
I have had a Gen-2 mildot for the last few weeks. A lot of thought based on shooter's feed back, and it it is the best of the mildot reticles available.
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Monday, February 4, 2002, at 23:34:31 (ZULU)
We have 2 scopes with the Gen 2 reticle in them. One is a 3.5 X 10 Tacital the other is a M1LR. I really like them!!!! Like 'lito said..best recticle out there!
Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Monday, February 4, 2002, at 23:59:55 (ZULU)
THANKS for the quick answers. I thought the GEN 2 looked pretty good so that is the way I will go. I have another question. Is the M3 LR easier to use than the MK4 M3, or are they the same? Wondering because of the extra adjustment on the turrent. The AR10 will be for coyote hunting, and deciding between the LR M1 or M3. What do you guys think would work best as this is the first semi 308 I have owned. I think the M3 would be faster than M1. THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
- Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 01:04:27 (ZULU)
Bill, thanks for the input. I had a feeling the predicament with palma was the bullets used.
Fred:
yer 130 grain Silvertips should group fine with the .270 win, which will be a 1/10" twist rate. 270 is a very accurate caliber, probably up to the equipment you are using. Worst thing about 270 is there was a lot of 'em made without consideration to detail, and they don't have a lot of bullet weights to work with. Maybe this'll pick up a little bit with the introduction of the 270 WSM..
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 01:40:08 (ZULU)
I have AR-10 with hi badger rings and M3 scope. When scope is zeroed at 100 the most elevation I can get from there is 870yards.Check posts going back 3-4 weeks as to which scopes need sloped mounts for max elevation Charlie
Charlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
Ann Arbor, Mi, Usa - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 01:42:19 (ZULU)
JR,
I think the reason Palma shooters can get away with the .3065/.298 is the short bearing surface of the 155 bullets, although quite a few shoot the 175's in the same barrels with good results.
Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 02:34:33 (ZULU)
.200 center to center with the .338LM George Gardner built for me will you believe me?
Thanks George great gun.
question anyone knows where i can find a dealer for Black hills ammo?I am handloading but i would like to have a referanse(?) with factory ammo.
thanks
jim <dimlinos@yahoo.com>
marathon, fl, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 02:52:54 (ZULU)
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:00:30 (ZULU)
Georgia Precision has the best prices, selection, and service that I've found on BH ammo. I just today ordered a 500 round case of 175's for my Garner-ized PSS, in fact. Have a peek:
http://www.georgiaprecision.com
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:00:53 (ZULU)
Get yourself a GGG scout rail with 20 MOA built in and use Badger or Lupy M4 rings. That will give you the elevation you need for 1000 and I suggest the M3 for a scope. That's how mine are set up. Hope I like the Gen II, I have one comming.
Take care
Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:20:33 (ZULU)
All of you who use America Online in particular. I have been told that AOL is allegedly anti-gun.
ANYWAY.. everyone has been wanting an alternative.
Now you have one:
http://join.nraonline.com/preregister.asp?ID=
The above URL (linked below as well) is for a new ISP (Internet Service Provider) that is run by the NRA! Why let your ISP dollars be used against you? If you are an AOLer get the hell off of there and get an ISP that will support YOU!
Charles
http://www.memorableplaces.com
Charles of memorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:26:16 (ZULU)
Roy
Roy Harrison <grizz47@hotmail.com>
Charlottesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:44:14 (ZULU)
Quick question...........gentlemen,
I know that Hart barrels are button rifled. I was also told that Schneider barrels are buttoned. Is this true? If so, what do you guys believe is the reason that the USMC uses buttoned barrels instead of cut?
PLEASE READ:
I am not trying to restart the discussion of which is the better method of rifling a barrel. I was just sitting here thinking about this and curiosity got the better of me.
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:49:20 (ZULU)
I think the general concensus on the scopesmith ARD is to stay way. If I'm not mistakes, 'Lito-san said the new GenII LR's were being threaded to accept a sunshade or a Tenebraex ARD. Either would be a better choice than the fuzz inducer (aka. Scopesmith ARD)
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:51:18 (ZULU)
I really appreciate your input, but I've made a whole pot of barrels specially for VLD's, for Berger to name one name specifically, that did not call for different dimensions like the palmas. These were expiremental barrels also. You're thinking in the right direction, but I don't think it's to do with bearing surface. Lot a bullets out there with less bearing surface than palmas...
jr
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 04:11:49 (ZULU)
I get mine from Iron Brigade Armory in Jacksonville, NC. Online at:
http://www.ironbrigadearmory.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=3&cat=Ammunition
Or call one of the Norm Chandlers at (910) 455-3834. They can get you same lot number.
Hope this helps. KROWBAR
KROWBAR <krowbar@scsssinc.com>
Orange County, NC, CSA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 05:28:25 (ZULU)
You'll have plenty of clearance for a 50mm scope using Badger ultra-high rings. If you go with the GG&G 20moa base you'll need the std. height rings.
jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 06:35:00 (ZULU)
Actually, if you're very careful to get your head directly in line with the scope axis, the image quality is quite good. There's no way in hell you can combine the ARD with close weave camo net or those spandoflauge masks.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 06:49:25 (ZULU)
If you want a budget kill flash try this. Take a piece of black pantyhose material and loosely stretch it over the scope. Put a Butler Creek cap over this to hold it in place. Trim excess with an exacto knife and there ya go. Total cost? A buck at the dollar store. This also will be easy to remove without a huge amount of effort. Works for me.
FESTUS
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, Ak, - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 07:08:24 (ZULU)
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 11:05:36 (ZULU)
Guys, they are ALL made by Tennebraex (they hold the patent). The thin ones from Leupold (use to come from Butler) have worse quality, because the holes in the honeycomb are smaller, and the smaller the holes, the worser the image.
Tennebraex makes a mil-spec ARD for the MK4 scopes (and mil bins) that has a better image, but it is 1.5" thick (long).
They ALL degrade the image by softening the resolution, and adding a lot of flair, especially in the dark shadows (where the BGs hide :((. So when you are looking in the weeds and brush for the target you get a faint layer of milkness over the shadows... You have taken a $1200 MK4, and turned it into a $28 chinee' special from "Junk scopes "R" Us"
I have 4 or 5 of these things, and I gave them to "Ruggus Rattus" to use on his Leggo space station.
Don't use 'em unless you really REALLY MUST.... as for black net stalkings, they will also degrade the image. They are better off on a woman's legs, but make you breath funny ;).
-
Yes, the new M3-LR's are threaded for a sunshade.
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 12:27:10 (ZULU)
Think of all the custom rifles i can buy after this transaction....
Do we sound so dumb, on the roster, that it makes them think we are such easy prey?????????
A soon to be rich Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 15:59:54 (ZULU)
In case you missed it - just keep an eye out for a two story, tower type structure with "SNIPERS" written on it in red, foot high spray painted lettering. That gives you an idea of what kind of report its going to be.
At least they could have tried to write it in Dari or Farsi so the locals would all know too.
The PR officer could probably have chosen a better team to interview.
That or we need to add "How to be interviewed by the press and remain professional," to the CTT Manual.
Just my opinion.
DakotaAviator <dakotaaviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Neb, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 16:49:12 (ZULU)
Shot show stuff.... Wow what a place! I kinda felt like I just came off of the farm and visited the big city for the first time. I saw a lot of cool stuff, but the best part was meeting a number of the folks that post here and chatting and hanging out with George, Eric, Marty, and Mike Miller.
There was an interesting booth with three very healthy leather halter clad women would give you a T-shirt if you submitted to a shock from a stun gun. Amazingly enough, there were a number of takers. (picture an Army Golden Knight flopping on the ground). He must have gotten shocked so much because of the large brass ones he must have!
I watched a USO rep hit a scope repeatedly onto a tabletop like it was a hammer driving a nail without damage. Talk about tough! Yikes!
I got a chance to chat with Mike Rock when he was hanging out at George's booth. He is a very unique genius! A purist at heart and no bull.
More later..
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 17:18:33 (ZULU)
I attended Front Sight last Sept for their 4 day defensive handgun class. We had 42 people in that class. We split the class in half with each group going to seperate ranges. We never had less than 4 instructors on the range, and usually 5 or 6. The class was conducted so that the more experienced shooters didn't have to wait on the less experienced shooters to catch up. Everyone said they advanced their shooting skills. I know I did. The ranges were nice. Turning targets, lots of shade, water and Gatorade provided. The school provides a Continental Breakfast on the first day of class. You need to bring a lunch. It's about 30 miles back to Pahrump, so that won't work.
Overall, it was a good experience, and I recommend it. Get on the Frontsight email list, and you can save some bucks with special offers. I managed to get a 50% discount certificate, and was going out west anyway so it was a good deal for me.
Now I got a question for you Roster Hogs. Has anyone attended StormMountain's Handgun Courses, or CQB Courses?
Thanks,
Bill Bledsoe
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 17:22:35 (ZULU)
Please forgive my ignorance, I 'm just a poor hillbilly.
drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 18:20:41 (ZULU)
I got a bud that has a Steyr Sniper Rifle. He put a McMillan stock on it, and didn't bed it. It is a really tight fit. Accuracy improved.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 18:32:56 (ZULU)
Marco: According to the email I received she is a widow who's husband was some kind of diamond barron and she has $23 million she's itching to spend on a young stud like you. I would'nt hesitate for a minute if I were you.
Question: Any one here anything more on that 50 cal sniper rifle found in Utah? Can't wait to here the outcome of this. A little bird keeps chirping democrate, democrate, democrate.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 18:36:41 (ZULU)
Not on this "young" stud. Maybe Lito might like a 23 million dollar mistress....
;)
And about the little bird you keep hearing...i heard it too, but it kinda more sounded like it was screaming from the top of its lungs; "TJILLUHP rosieodonnel TJILLUHP".
More serious,
just love this RCBS 5 station case prep center, lets me prep lots more cases than if you were to do them by hand, outside/ inside-deburring, flashole deburring, primerpocket uniforming, primerpocket cleaning...anything to keep the blisters away, always was the sensitive type...
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 20:05:50 (ZULU)
Thanks for the info. I am going to try and attend some courses at SMTC this year. Will start with some handgun courses, and then move to the CQB, and HRP course.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 20:36:38 (ZULU)
I got one you might enjoy. I thought you all could stand something on the light side, and this is a no shitter.
A fellow law enforcement Captain in a fairly rural county in North Carolina, has his own method of making sure he is ready for a call-out. When the "balloon goes up" he admits to stopping along the way and taking a shot on a state stop sign to check his zero. He says it's something he feels he has to do. I tried to convince him with his quality gear that if he keeps good data he will be alright. I also have conformation from other officers in his jurisdiction of the nice little dots in the middle of the O or P in STOP throughout the county.
I diffinitly don't recomend this practice, but it makes him feel better.
Thought you all would get a charge out of that.
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 20:51:33 (ZULU)
Thanks for the info. Based upon what you guys have told me and from a couple of other boards, Front Sight is good to go. Think I might just pass up the Free Subgun and take a regular course to make a longer trip out of it. I saw some discounted certs on gunbroker.com like the one you described using so that might be the way to go. Thanks!
Only308
Only308 <only308@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 21:01:05 (ZULU)
The recent talk about 20MOA bases got me thinking. I have a Badger 20MOA base on my Rem 700P for the M3LR to sit on.
If I seriously decide to pop for another M3LR for the M1A, would I not also need a 20MOA base for that setup? Currently, there is a Brookfield mount on the M1A. Would the Brookfield allow the M3LR to reach out to 1,000 yards?
If not, what 20MOA bases are available for the M1A?
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 00:02:44 (ZULU)
....A fellow law enforcement Captain in a fairly rural county in North Carolina, has his own method of making sure he is ready for a call-out. When the "balloon goes up"....
Thats where the tenths of a mile on the tripmeter of the squad come in handy. .6 mile for long range checks. :)
Deputy Doug
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 00:09:25 (ZULU)
Thanks for the response. I hadn't thought about that.
Still looking for any information on the Rock Island Armory .45s?????????
Semper Fi
Paul
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 00:28:11 (ZULU)
++++++
Little David comes home from first grade and tells his father that they learned about the history of Valentine's Day. "Since Valentine's Day is for a Christian saint and we're Jewish," he asks, "will God get mad at me for giving someone a valentine?"
David's father thinks a bit, then says, "No, I don't think God would get mad. Who do you want to give a valentine to?"
"Osama Bin Laden," David says.
"Why Osama Bin Laden," his father asks in shock.
"Well," David says, "I thought that if a little American Jewish boy could have enough love to give Osama a valentine, he might start to think that maybe we're not all bad, and maybe start loving people a little bit. And if other kids saw what I did and sent valentines to Osama, he'd love everyone a lot. And then he'd start going all over the place to tell everyone how much he loved them and how he didn't hate anyone anymore."
His father's heart swells and he looks at his boy with newfound pride.
"David, that's the most wonderful thing I've ever heard."
"I know," David says, "and once that gets him out in the open, the Marines could blow the shit out of him."
+++++
I laughed hard.... :)
L8R,
-L
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 00:35:25 (ZULU)
I use the BPT scope mount on my M25 too. That mount can be sort of a pain to set up, until you figure it out. I found a way to set it up so that I got 15 MOA of elevation built into the mount. With the Leupold Mark4 M1 I got enough elevation for 1,000yds. Not familiar with the Leupold M3LR, but it would probably be enough.
If you're installing the mount on the rifle just rotate the lever on the side mounting bolt all the way to the rear. This will put the rear of the scope mount against the dove tail for the stripper clip, and will add elevation by tipping the mount down. It also seems to help keep the mount centered for windage too. I had exactly 15 additional MOA, and was only 1 MOA off from mechanical zero on the windage. I use a "dab" of blue loctite on the rear screw in the stripper clip guide. I use a soldering iron to break it loose when I need to remove the mount.
P.S.
I should have said that the lever on the side mounting bolt should be pointed up when you install it. It will fit either up, or down.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:01:56 (ZULU)
Thanks for the humor. We laughed our butts off on that one!
Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:03:30 (ZULU)
Charley
Charley <cmeng@yahoo.com>
KY, - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:10:44 (ZULU)
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:17:05 (ZULU)
As a shooting school junkie I have learned that most shooting schools have a specality that is the owners first love and they teach the other classes to pay the rent. Stormmountains is rifle ( I have taken 4 rifle classes there and all were great) Thunder Ranchs is Urban Rifle, Bill Rodgers is pistol and shotgun etc .With limited dollars and time the trick is to find the closest school with reasonable rates and best learning curve. Check with your best local pistol shooters as to what they think. You will learn at any school ,but Charlie
Charlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
Ann Arbor, Mi, Usa - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 01:55:57 (ZULU)
A weeping woman came into a veterinarian’s clinic to have her extremely sick puppy looked at. After laying the puppy on the exam table, he looked, poked, prodded and finally said, “I’m sorry, but your puppy is deathly ill. I don’t believe he’s going to make it.”
The woman became hysterical and pleaded with the vet to take another look. So the vet opened the exam room door, leaned out and whistled and in came a large Labrador Retriever. The dog jumped up on the exam table and looked the puppy up and down, sniffing him all over and finally looked at the vet and shook his head. He jumped off the table and left the room. A cat then entered and likewise jumped up on the table, carefully inspected the puppy and then looked at the vet and shook her head. The vet sadly looked at the woman and said, “I’m sorry, but the diagnosis remains the same. Your puppy is not going to make it.”
A short time later the vet heard a commotion in the waiting room and found the woman agitated about her bill. “You charged me $350 to tell me that my puppy was dying? This is ridiculous, don’t you think?” The vet replied, “Look, if you would have accepted my diagnosis, the charge would have been $25. But, hey, with the Lab work, and cat scan . . . .”
Blaine Fields <blf@techtrials.com>
- Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 05:14:50 (ZULU)
"Is it OK to bolt a rifle action strait into an inletted McMillan stock without bedding it"
I ordered a McMillian A2 drop-in for a Savage 10FP, thought I would have to do some bedding but out of curiosity I dropped the action in and went to the range. Damn thing shoots .4" groups consistently, and I have gotten .25" when I do everything right. I don't know if bedding would improve it any, but I'm a little scared to try. (don't want it to go back to those dang 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" groups I was getting before the McMillian.
Take care!
Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 05:35:44 (ZULU)
Finished loading for the new .22/250. Will test in the morn.
It should shoot like a house on fire with this load once broken in...
Used Rem cases, 36.5 gr. N140, CCI200, and 52 gr. Rubright bench rest bullets. Will chronograph and let you know the results. Am going to get some Lapua or Norma brass and give it a try. Got 300 rounds of primed Remington given to me so will use that in the meantime.
Scored a Remington 30S Express in 7 X 57 Mauser today, in a trade. Beautiful metal, but has seen use. Stock needs some work, but a gun this old is going to show some honest wear. No rust anywhere and the bore looks factory new. They only made 22,800 of these and only a few in the Mauser Caliber. I'm researching it and am going to restore it to original. Also has the origianal Lyman 48 peep sight properly mounted on the action. NOT drilled and tapped...all original. It's a peach.
Any of you folk Rem 30S fans? Only other original I've ever seen was in 30/06.
WILL be attending the Sniper Match at Tri-County Gun Club (that's Oregon for most of you folk) this weekend. Wish me luck.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 05:55:22 (ZULU)
I was on this callout once a few years back. Typical swat gig. 2am, guy is drunk and despondent, wife bailed, Christmastime, he's got a 12 ga. and a .357, threatening to kill himself and the cops, yada, yada.
The house has a privacy fence around it and I get there late so I'm stuck covering the backyard. No place to get but on the roof behind the bad guy's house. I get a boost up there from my guys and sneak up to the peak. I unroll my gen-u-ine, US surplus, rubber bitch, mat and lay it down. Those things always seem to want to roll back up so I laid the end barely over the roof edge. Composite roof. Rough but with a little dew on it. I figured it'd be okay. I settled in, grabbed my stick and rolled over onto the mat. Ziiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnng ! down I go - really f23king fast !!! Holy shit ! I roll off the thing and spread eagle to try and increase my surface area. Ain't working. I am now face down and sliding fast. My chin and elbows are getting road rash and I am trying to hold a Robar SR60 D w/Parker Hale bi-pod off the roof with one hand so I don't damage it ??? My BDU blouse and sweatshirt have ridden up and the roof is now sanding my belly button. I look to the side and I can see the roof's edge coming up in my peripheral vision. It ain't looking good now boys. I made my peace with God, prepared for the impact and STOP ! My toes hung in the gutter. Thank God it was a new house or the gutters would have come with me.
Fellas, I j u s t a b o u t p i s s e d i n m y p a n t s.
I couldn't have taken a shot for an hour after that even if I had wanted to.
We call it the Cajun luge.
Watch your sixes,
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 13:01:45 (ZULU)
Brian' If you ever decide to do a bio... I want the movie rights? You must pray to the same minor God I do. He likes to get me in totally hopeless and then just barely get me by!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 14:12:49 (ZULU)
Thank you, that story is too funny not to be true!
Is that what they mean by "High speed, low drag?"
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 15:04:16 (ZULU)
That was funny. What you just reminded everybody was that us southern boys have to work at things just a little bit harder then the others, but we have more fun and excitement doing it.
It's like they say, the last words of a true redneck are, "Hold my beer and watch this."
Thanks again for the laugh.
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 17:35:32 (ZULU)
Last time I wrote in you guys took my bad attempt at humor for serious so I buttoned up. This one's for real. Yirmi, Rehovot Israel.
Yirmi Zanton <mans1@internet-zahav.net>
Rehovot, Israel - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 17:49:00 (ZULU)
Did SWAT Search Warrant on typical Biker place. It was an old Bowling Alley, with a Portable Outhouse Business out back. We set the outer Per. Hit the door and take down a bunch of bikers, weapons, Meth, the usual porn.
Then it comes down to searching the the back Porta Potty area. They ahve hundred of these crappers everywhere and we are still missing suspects so each one has to be searched. We know the guys we caught were armed so caution is in the game plan. I search for about an hour, its hot and I come around a corner and this thing jumps me before I can pull the MP5 up. Its the biggest German Sheppard I have ever seen and all I see is him in the air. Just about sh.. myself. I am dead is the only thought I have. Well Dino the Dino knocks me flat and starts licking me all over my face while he pisses on my chest. Seems the Bikers just ignored him and he was happy to see someone and I was now a play thing.
My partner laughed so hard but never said a word to anyone, because I threatened to kill him if he told the rest of the team.
So I left tired, pissed off and pissed on!
Had a great time at the Shot Show. Met many friends of Rick B. (Sounds like an AA meeting)
Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 18:24:21 (ZULU)
Maybe some of you folks remember the series of 8 pictures which were shown to us by, i believe K Mussack, that showed us a Russian apc which was being ambushed by Afghan rebels??
(picture 1 apc driving, picture 4 big boom, picture 5 body's flying, picture 7 second boom, bla bla bla???)
Can someone remember if those were shown before or after US troops went to Afghanistan?
Cause this week i got the exact same pictures (looked as if they came from a newspaper internetsite) in an e-mail, only this time with the next underlines; "subject; attack on a taliban BMP (?)This was sent from a pilot aboard the USS john c stennis. A Taliban bmp is targeted by FAC's of the US Army, 4th special operations group. A flight of 2 Navy tomcats are called in and strike the vehicle nearly simultanously with GBU-16 laser guided bombs. Actual file footage US ARMY 10 december 2001."
This gotta be BS, anyone else received these pictures?
Yimri,
Not attacking you, but personally i think with comments like these...why don't we just go back to the stone-age?? If someone does you wrong, boom, nock him over his head with your stone-club, take rights in your own hands....
I agree, some punishments are way to soft, speically in my own country, but i don't think that shit like cutting hands off really are gonna stop people from being criminals, never has and never will.
A few years back in Alaska, a 15 y old boy who was being bullied all his live took matters in his own hands and brought a shotgun to school, started shooting at everything and killed his bully and shot the principal. He was sentenced to jail for 130 years with maybe getting free at age 70. Now that is what i call a hard sentence, do you really think that from that day on, there has never been another killing like that?? I am too sick and tired of crimenals getting free because some shrink says he was molested in his young years and beaten by his mother at age 7,yadayadayada...but surely putting a boy age 15 away for live is not the solution. Yes, be hard on crimenals, but try staying human, we got enough mad men in the world as it is...
Look at the way the americans are treating the taliban prisoners, that is the way to go about it, you do not have to be nice to them, but by cuting off hands i don't think the US would have gotten anymore information out of them than they have now. They are being treated the way they should be, like scumbags, but human scumbags.
Again, this is just my personal thought on the matter.
Come to think of it Yimri, the only time you post it is almost never about sniping or even rifles/ shooting...always political shit, maybe you should serious consider looking up political sites.
Still this is a free for all site, so who am i to tell anyone anything....
Shutting up and back to molying my 155 grain bullets,
Marco
Marco <Fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 18:53:20 (ZULU)
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95001828
The President intends to change the world. He is completely serious.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29875-2002Feb5.html
The US as 900 lb gorilla.
http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley020502.shtml
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 18:59:30 (ZULU)
Mike I always knew you were an old lap dog. Hope you didn't scare the dog too much...
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 19:05:23 (ZULU)
I don't think Yimri was suggesting that these were "good" punishents, just passing it along as a view from the other side. We've all been pretty political over the last 4 months, and we've all posted political stuff.
I found his post more intersting than the "veterinarian’s clinic" joke... and what the hell, it's winter, and we all have serious cabin fever. He and I have swapped many e-mails, and he's Stand-up, OK in my book.
... and I saw those pictures long ago, just like TonyY... maybe a year or more ago.
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 19:48:28 (ZULU)
I got the pic´s too and thought they were strange.
1. it is not a BMP it is a BTR/SPW 70
2. pic no 2. should be no. 1. check the tank track marks on the side of the road.
and I am not firm on the GBU 16, but I would think that that sort of heavy ordnance would do more damage than what is visible, and why waste a second bomb if you know the first one is laser guided by a FAC ?
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
- Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 20:10:10 (ZULU)
They sent me looking for a gun shot druggee in an alley one night. S'posed to have been shot up pretty bad. Walking along, I saw something red and wet on the ground. Looked all the world like deer lungs. Got down on one knee to look and all I heard was Cha Chiiiinnnng !!! That was the chain of a staked out, solid black Chow dog that wanted very badly to e a t m e. Never saw him.
He never made a sound 'til he got to the end of that chain - 6 inches from my face. He snarled like a dog will when he's pissed and I could smell the milkbones he had for supper. I fell over backwards, slapping at my Sig like one of the hand jive guys on Hee Haw. Executed a perfect combat roll to the left, crapped my pants, got up and ran like hell.
Went back later. The red stuff was a mouthful of Michigan cherry candies somebody had chewed up and spit out.
Damn.
JIM/MIKE: We gotta meet someday bros.
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 22:21:41 (ZULU)
Please bring your own Pampers and some personal moistened towelettes. I don't change diapers!
Do not bring a ghillie suit!
Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 22:37:38 (ZULU)
Robert French <rdfrench@netscope.net>
- Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 23:00:10 (ZULU)
Seems the list has gone to the dogs...quite literally. I have the opposite of the Boltster's Black 90 pounder. Shotzi, is a 92 pound WHITE German Shepherd. She's perfect for snowy terrain and operations. If you're lucky, and it's daylight, all you see are three lumps of charcoal...at night, you're toast.
Seems like we like our critters. My attack cat is a 16+ pound grey tabby named Tiny. He hates all dogs, but Shotzi. Kicks butt on them regularly, yet is gentle with his big white buddy. Go figure.
Didn't make the range today. Seems that "she who must be obeyed" had offered my talents to help an aging friend. No problem...there's always tomorrow.
Got a rough plan for the Sniper match on Saturday. It's gonna be interesting. The rain keeps up I'll need floatation devices for my bullitz...;-)
Brownells say's next month before the Badger bases are in...guess I'll have to wait and make do with the 3 X 9 on the rifle, for now.
Take care and hold hard.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 02:27:17 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 02:37:42 (ZULU)
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$12XYRFAAAAQFFQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/02/06/wter106.xml
'Economist' getting sniffy about us giving Iran due warning. They hold out hope of finding ruling faction "moderates". Looking for love in all the wrong places.
http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=974936
Here's my guess. Iran's ruling faction is sitting on a revolution and they're flirting with the idea of find common purpose with Sadaam. We're spending an additional $48bn on defense, and Bush isn't afraid to pull a trigger. Sadaam will be dead by the end of Bush's first term and Iran will be under new management. There's going to be a Hell of a war.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 03:01:25 (ZULU)
I actually think that USIA had a more colourful booth than the TASER chicks:)
Unfortunately came away with so many MUST have's.
Had to can the FrontSight SMG day to fit in the CCW Course :)
Kevin of the Great White North <cantac@shaw.ca>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 03:35:59 (ZULU)
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeComorant, MS, - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 04:11:56 (ZULU)
http://www.maadigriffin.com/temp/
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 05:57:03 (ZULU)
Wes-
how about meeting sadie brindle sharpaee withthem big teeth
and ugly face but a good watch dog at night you can,t see her
about 50 lbs mean
hold tight tony
tony k <tony3006@msn.com>
spokane, wa, u,s of a - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 06:11:16 (ZULU)
Lito, Bill Rogers, Yimri,
No apologies but,like i said before....
who am i to tell anybody anything on this site.
Just like Yimri and the rest of you gentlemen, i am only a guest of this nice site.
All i gave was my personal opinion about what i though of yimri's post this time (and yimri's post last time for that matter; "you americans brought it on to yourself yadayada").
In my ignorance wanted to try to keep this from turning into another shitstorm like the one with Andre, cause that keeps up way to much bandwith which could/ should be used for sniper/ rifles/ ammo reply's.
But, again, it is a free site, and i am gonna shut up now and keep to my shooting buiseness.
Point taken,
Marco.
ps; for all you Euro trash, never buy a ghillie through the internet from our American friends, cause once customs get their hands on it,...man...could have bought me 2 kilo's of Vithavuori for what they are charging me to pay for taxes and BS.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 12:00:03 (ZULU)
well they did, and maybe some of the thoery behing Henry V's army still applies today, History repeats its self..of course Shakespear put it more poeticaly, " If we are marked to die, we are enough to do our Country loss, and If to live, the fewer men, the Greater the share of Honour" sounds about right to me, any how this European(by legislation and geographical location, and not by choice) Is right behind you Yanks, sod what the damn leftie whimps think and say, lets do the doin' and to hell with the pacifists.
Marco, I know one about an English kid who was bullied at high school for the first 2 years, untill he got some boxing lessons, then he punched the shit out of all comers, and got away with it because they where all older and bigger than he was and shouldn't have been trying to bully him any way, and he took his shot gun to school, and he and the Engineering teacher shot clays on the sports field using a claypigeon trap that the school kid had designed and built during his engineering/technical studies, won't mention any names, and I bet you couldn't shoot clays within 5 miles of a school these days,
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 12:48:09 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 13:31:29 (ZULU)
And I have a different opinion of French soldiers. Von Runsteldt said that, during the first Ardennes offensive, the French fought bravely and well. Their tactics were just obsolete. In Algeria, Viet Nam and the dirty little colonial wars the French were tough and effective. But you are only as good as senior civilian command.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 13:43:27 (ZULU)
I was there and did get to meet some guys. Next year we'll have to organize a get-together after the show. There's just too much going on at the show itself to expect to hook up except by accident. I didn't see too much new or exciting. The L.E. section was neat with all the stuff I can't have or can't afford.
Ref: Matches
There is the match in West Virginia May 11&12 as well as the Carlos shoot in New Jersey June 23 that should give some of us a chance to get some face to face time. The really exciting match this year will be the NRA Highpower Slowfire Prone Championships at Raton, NM September 2-8. This will be a great opportunity to fill your log book with some long range data.
Ref: On the Road
Leaving sunny southern California today. Next stop Denver then my own bed for the first time in a week. It'll be nice to get home.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 13:48:00 (ZULU)
This doesn't have anything to do with sniping but those of you who work in political systems might relate. Hopefully it's worth a laugh to everyone else.
The powers that be insisted that I submit a status report explaining where we are in in my High School Chemistry curriculum and explaining why we are behind as well as what I'm doing to make each individual student successful. Not a typical teacher I dont tell them what they want to hear instead they get the truth. Here are some exerpts:
We spent two days on the metric system because most students claim to have never used a ruler before; four days were spent on simple ratios; and two days on percent solution, even though all students have had Algebra. Attendance has declined to an all-time low of 38% due to a concert this weekend and the group suspended for fighting when Tyrone had his ear cut off…
Of those students who are failing or borderline I negotiate several issues. Most students are very "needy" and require constant personal attention…
This combined with the extremely hot room makes keeping students awake a constant chore. Often times students refuse to wake up or become belligerent when disturbed. In addition to those with emotional or drug problems the "thug" identity is pervasive. This requires time spent on moral & social issues…
Although we lack lab equipment we have done several demonstrations & completed two labs. I have purchased paper cups for beakers and since there is no running water or safety equipment we use household products such as vinegar & baking soda for acids & bases...
Can you believe I get paid to have this much fun?
Teacher
D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Deep East Coast, Getto, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 14:19:31 (ZULU)
I'm a long time lurker/first time poster with a question. I have the opportunity to pick up a NIB M1A Std. w/ fiberglass stock for $999 plus S&H. The wood stocks run abut $100 more. I'm not looking for a long range rifle, more of a medium range plinker/SHTF rifle. Any thoughts?
Thank you.
buzz_knox
Dillis <buzz_knox@yahoo.com>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 14:37:41 (ZULU)
Andy's dad. Im juggling handgrenades down here. Our organization has changed (hopefully for the last time) and I am having to negotiate a deal with the CMP club I work with to get on McCLellan. I just talked to the range lady up there and it looks like they are going 24/7 on the ranges which is both good and bad for us. But I am working on it and should know something soon.
Out here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 14:54:43 (ZULU)
>>>"The really exciting match this year will be the NRA Highpower Slowfire Prone Championships at Raton, NM September 2-8. This will be a great opportunity to fill your log book with some long range data."<<<
Do you know something I don't? Does any one have any word on the National Matches.... From the latest SHOOTING SPORTS I got the impression that they were still planning on using Camp Perry but were keeping options open. If they move the whole thing to NM it WILL MAKE LIFE INTERESTING trying to get there - both $ and logistics. If anyone has any solid info post it ASAP.
Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
south west, PA, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 15:06:10 (ZULU)
Thanks. Bill Moore
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 15:13:35 (ZULU)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36143-2002Feb6.html
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 15:26:51 (ZULU)
Just catching up on the roster and had to ask about the show Combat Missions. Is it just me or are these guys really that bad!! If the bad guys would ever stay under cover they would kill everyone of those guys!!
It looks like no one uses cover or follows orders. The team heavy with the SWAT guys seem to be doing the best. Looks to me like there are to many "Chiefs" and not enough Indians. I think the reason the SWAT team guys are doing better is that they seem to listen and do what their told and use available cover. Looks like someone needs to explain the difference between concealment and cover. A bush doesn't stop bullets!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 15:30:02 (ZULU)
Is it just me or does "Shadow Squad" fight harder/more effectively when the SF heavy teams are adversaries, rather than the SWAT heavy teams? I'm not taking away from the SWAT guys as they follow orders and use tactics far better, but there seems to be a difference in enemy responses to the two teams.
Dillis <buzz_knox@yahoo.com>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 16:09:00 (ZULU)
Gooch...
The Carlos Match in New Joisey is run by the Marine Corps, not a private group, so I don't think anyone is getting ripped off.
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 16:10:08 (ZULU)
As to the Military versus SWAT crap. Who really cares. Similar job different rules and locations of targets. Bottom line is they are not the same and should not compete against each other in this fashion. We should work together to make both better.You will have no way of telling if SWAT or the Military is better because you are not seeing active military guys on the TV Farse Combat MIssions. They were all prohibited from participation by the US Military. We/Police should have done the same thing but apparently egos got in the way and some said go for the cash. EGO EGO EGO makes me sick. Might as well compare dinks at the toilet stall. I guess I have a strong opinion about this.
Bill MOore, the CQT Leupold is nothing I would recommend. Not much of a scope for the money. The ACOG, US Optics SN4/SN12 or Aimpoint will serve you better.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 16:28:53 (ZULU)
Thanks,
Don
Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 16:34:57 (ZULU)
Kevin M - yes there were too many distractions to list - the only guy I ran into saw my name badge and said hi. Next year...
Kevin of the Great White North <cantac@shaw.ca>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 16:40:35 (ZULU)
I had a CQ/T for a couple of months of testing (until the beginning of this year). Quite simple- don't buy it right now- wait until the improved version comes out. Already they will be upgrading the circuitry for 100 times the battery life they have now. Good clear glass- unlike the ACOG. It needs to shrink and some other design tweaks need to be done. Supposedly Leupold is doing so, and if they do-I will buy it.
FWIW- my work AR and personal AR's have irons and/or Aimpoints. I haven't seeen anything else out there as tough and good, but no magnification.
Can't have everything YET!
IMHO- bottom line- go with the Aimpoint. If you need magnification, the field is open. None of them are clearly superior, IMHO. Choose according to the features you need/want, or wait until improvements new products come out. Trijicon is making two new models, Leupold is reworking theirs.
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 16:46:34 (ZULU)
I mean, I know ex-spec ops people that have gotten out of the military and joined SWAT units and those guys really bring a lot of experience to the table.
On the other hand, I also know a couple of SWAT cops that at 33 years of age, had more operational experience in Bosnia than many SF guys (not to mention their street smarts). One of them (Cop Sniper, smart, middle eastern ties) recently joined the Army, flew through basic, AIT, jump school and is in the A course now. I know him personally and am sure he will bring a lot to THEIR table also.
Police work hardens a guy in a lot of different ways and they say the SF guys love him already 'cause he's just steady as hell and unflappable.
Comparing the two though (cops/soldiers), is kinda like comparing a peach to a nectarine. Kind of the same, but not really.
Watch your sixes brothers,
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 17:54:04 (ZULU)
Disregard previous post.
Found it only refers to rifle/scope/sling/pelican case.
Thanks
Doug
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 18:13:23 (ZULU)
DoD is set in WWII, Americans versus Germans, a lot of urban combat. You play as part of a team and choose a charater type to play (rifleman, machine gunner, sniper, sergeant, etc.). The new version (2.0) released yesterday is very realistic with regard to recoil, breathing, aimpoint stability standing versus prone, etc. Good voice comm system. The best combat sim I have seen.
Information available at:
http://www.dayofdefeatmod.com/index.shtml
Feel free to email me with any questions.
William M.
William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 18:59:36 (ZULU)
the rifle .22
the beasts r 35 meter from my, (6 wild pigs about 80 kilo )
shoot it or not ?
end where to aim ?
hary they ar still in the gulch
avi
raviv <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 20:01:04 (ZULU)
I am not much of an experienced hunter, but since i had big troubles killing a small sized animal like a raccoon with a .22, took me 3 bullets to kill each of them, imagine what an 80 kilo pig is gonna do if you tickle it with a .22.....
Maybe Pete L can say something about killing pigs with .22's....
(come to think of it, the more i think of it the more ridiculous it sounds..)
CDC,
i think your reply was meant for Pete L, but since you mention it, i too have bad experiences with the French Army, lazy bunch of soldiers, only the French who were in the Foreign Legion were a bunch of good folks, and they are the ones i think you mean when you speak of Vietnam and algeria.
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 20:30:39 (ZULU)
Combat Mission - Beyond Overlord
best computer game I have encountered.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 21:01:45 (ZULU)
Like Lito said the "Carlos" match is run by a Marine Corps League and I think they are just using the name to show respect and genuine reverence as you said not to rip people off. I'm sure the Gunny wouldn't mind having former/active Marines and fellow shooters shooting at a match in his name. If Greg is around he can explain it further. It's a fun match and I'll be there again this year.
Lito,
I talked to Frank(Lowlight) and he's going to go the the Carlos shoot this year so maybe we can all carpool or convoy down again. I don't think we have to leave as early this year though. ;) Now that we know it's closer. Well let me know if you're interested and going.
Andy's Dad,
Is the PA match on the 11th and 12th or the 4th and 5th? Just wondering. Thanks. Will Team Mussack be at the Carlos shoot this year?
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 22:27:59 (ZULU)
HOWEVER, unless I had iron legs, I wouldn't do it in the woods with real pissed off sow bent on ripping me a new one. The only good shot for wild hawgies IMHO is a big ass boolit behind or in the ear or in the upper part of the neck. EX: Two of my buds went on a pay deer hunt from stands. The guide told them that there were some big hawgs in the area and if they saw one to ONLY shoot it in the above mentioned places. My bud saw two hawgs about 300 yards off coming towards him. He got excited and shot the biggest one behind the shoulder with a 300mag. Pissed the hawg off real bad and started circling his stand. Two followup shots in the head and neck brought it down. It's friend came over to see what happened and my bud did the right thing and shot it where he was told to. The biggest one weighed I think 423#, the small one around 350#. They found the first mushroomed boolit 4 1/2" deep in the piggy's side and it never made it through the fat!
CDC, RE: smallpox. Only a microdot injected into ONE of Allah's children is enough. Let him get good and infected for about 5 days, just enough to run a fever but prior to pox. Send him to 1 airport. Tell him to wander around all of the international concourses. Bump into people, cough, etc. That's all it would take, only one suicidal maniac, one international airport, about an hour.
Again on the combat missions! I would gather up the gang that I played army with as a kid and do just as good as some of these experts. Not to disparage any of the contestants abilities or experience, but this show is a joke. There is no way to make this real or anymore than a buddy buddy wasted hour. As for Survivor, strip em neked, send them into the desert and the first one that comes out on the other side alive wins. No voting, no gimmees, no bullshit.
Long day, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 22:35:48 (ZULU)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1699072620
;^), Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 23:32:42 (ZULU)
The match is going to be May 4/5 NOT May 11/12. More details next week, directly to your email adress.
Rod
rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com >
- Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 23:51:44 (ZULU)
It's not the National Matches!!!
It's a National "F-Class" thing. Scoped rifle from the prone (run what ya brung) kind of match. It'll be great for anybody that likes shooting long range with a scoped rifle.
Ref: All other matches
Team Mussack will be deployed and operational at any match within CONUS unless it falls on "Brittany's" birthday. Yikes, Andy's got a girlfriend and his priorities have shifted. Ah to be young again......
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 00:12:58 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, February 8, 2002, at 00:47:08 (ZULU)
This is Kush checking in after a long hiatus from the roster, rotting my 0321 skills down here at flight school
On Combat Missions, I know a couple of the Jug-heads on the show, let's just say it doesn't surprise me that they are on that show. I hope they are teaching taking out a tank with a satchel charge at BRC now, forhet leser guided munitions!
Later gents, CH-46 4EVER
Kush out
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola NAS, Florabamma, Greatest Nation on Earth - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 02:04:27 (ZULU)
+++++
Osama's Reward
After getting nailed by a Daisy Cutter, Osama made his way to the Pearly Gates. There, he is greeted by George Washington. "How dare you attack the nation I helped conceive?", slapping Osama in the face.
Patrick Henry came up from behind, "You wanted to end the American's liberty, so they gave you death." Henry punches Osama in the nose.
James Madison comes up next, and says, "This is why I allowed the Federal Government to provide for the common defense." He drops a large weight on Osama's knee.
Osama is subject to similar beatings from John Randolph of Roanoke, James Monroe, and 65 other people who have the same love of liberty and America. As he writhes on the ground, Thomas Jefferson picks him up to hurl him back toward the gate where he is to be judged.
As Osama awaits his journey to his final very hot destination, he screams, "This is not what I was promised."
An angel replies, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you. What did you think I said?"
+++++
L8R,
-L
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 02:31:49 (ZULU)
http://www.nrawc.org/
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 03:56:43 (ZULU)
Did get to the range today and broke in the .22/250. Couln't chronograph. Things were at "flood stage"...:-(
Still, initial indicators are it's going to shoot when I get a decent scope on it and weather co-operates.
Torrential downpours turned to snow at 5:00 PM...go figure. Back to rain and snow at 8:00 PM. This is, after all, ORYGUN!
As to Survivor and Combat Missions: I won't even validate the assholes, who produce this crap, by watching. Most should be publically embarrassed by even being associated with the production of this tripe! Proves we are a nation of watchers(for the most part) and not doers.
I don't live my life vicariously by watching lots of TV, sports, etc...would rather be reloading, hiking, hunting, etc.
Spending time with the red head is way up on my list, as well.
Rant mode off...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 04:29:57 (ZULU)
Also, be sure that you free-float the bbl in the forend correctly, as Howa has a disconcerting habit of putting a "pressure point" in the forend where the front sling swivel screws in. It drove me crazy until I removed it. Good luck.
Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 04:32:24 (ZULU)
any how, back to pigs, with a 22 ????? well you know that many game animals have been taken with a 22, from rodents to elefants, and Ive shot several roe deer with a 22, which is by the way technicaly illegal, I don't think Id like to risk it on a pig, these old hogs are pretty tough to drop, the key to stopping a hog or any other tough game it to brake bone, shoot the suckers through the shoulders, that should work 9 times out of 10, slightly further back in the rear of the boiler room tends to see animals making a dash before piling up, and remember the story of my mate with the east german hog that had him? I saw the scars last sunday, awesome !!! this here 450 marlin does the job just fine. Ive shot pigs with a 243, but they where all head shots, anyway, I gotta go answer some emails.Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 07:04:46 (ZULU)
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 08:21:29 (ZULU)
Dude... instead of grinding the bottom of the action for clearence, put a piece of masking tape on the bottom of the lug before bedding it. Then remove the tape from the bottom of the lug well, after the bedding sets up, and the .01" will be there without messing up the action.
-
Peter L...
It wasn't a "smaller professional well trained/motivated/paid and equiped force" that won the battle of Agincourt (I think that was the name... it's been a long time), it was rain... If it weren't for a week of downpour and mud, Henry V would have gotten creamed, and the French flag would have been flying over London...
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Friday, February 8, 2002, at 11:03:21 (ZULU)
Guido <mauri@stellarnet.com>
- Friday, February 8, 2002, at 13:25:08 (ZULU)
MARCO / WES: Since you guys are getting into the ole LE game, sooner or later you will encounter crazy people. Here's two tips that might keep them from bothering you all night with calls for service.
1) If the aliens are sending death rays from space to steal their brains again, strips of tin foil tied to their TV antenna will usually disrupt the rays and allow the person to sleep peacefully for the rest of your shift. (Tell 'em they can apply the tin foil themselves the next time it happens).
2) If they are standing on their bed screaming because the floor is covered with rattlesnakes, reassure them that you are a trained LE snake handler and get a shoe box out of a closet, go outside and fill it with gravel from the driveway. Bring it in but don't shake it. Reach up under the bed and act like you are grabbing snakes but don't let them watch. After a minute or two come out shaking the hell out of the box so it rattles. Reassure them that you got them all.
Hope it helps.
Oh, by the way, I also hold the 1993 record for the most possums killed INSIDE A HOUSE. Got six that year. Kinda proud of that one but that's another story . . .
Watch your sixes,
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, February 8, 2002, at 13:32:07 (ZULU)
Next time you fellas hear from me I'll be posting from a lap-top on a beech in the Bahamas (sitting next to my helicopter of course);-)
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, February 8, 2002, at 13:38:36 (ZULU)
Glad to see that the crazies are about the same all over the country. One difference though, all the possums I see in houses here, are in the kitchen cooking.
We had a lady who had evil spirts in her attic, calling the PD almost every night. realy got to be a pain. One of my female officers, an hispanic girl, went there with some talcum powder in a bag and candles. She went upstairs and performed a ritual (using all the right words in spanish of course) and the poor lady didn't call back for a long time.
Now are we a full service department or what?
Marco,Jon
I think she is playing around on you guys. She gave me the same offer.
They always go for us older men.
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 14:08:49 (ZULU)
I said man you were pushin it weren't you (he's already let the 12ga go a couple of times into the trailer wall.) He said "No problem I I told him you had him covered!" His hands were still shaking the next day when I told him the real situation. That tin foil trick is nice to know!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 14:55:05 (ZULU)
Wow, I'm glad it came out okay. It's just that I hate to hear of "tombstone courage" like that. These stupid drunk basterds just aren't worth the life of a fellow brother.
We have a mental health/detox center here in town that refuses to hire and train people who can handle the folks that they get. They are always asking us to come down there and assist them with a fighter, who is tearing the place up. When we get there they want us to take our weapon off before entering. We tell them NO. I ain't sending in my guys without ALL their options.
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonvile, NC, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 15:29:36 (ZULU)
still didnt shoot them all ?
wheres is my 22 ?
well it was just a thought i didnt hunt them yet
end if so i will heve my bol m-5 in the 45 whit mi
thanks to all your replys on pigs hunt
avi
raviv <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 16:52:03 (ZULU)
still didnt shoot them all ?
wheres is my 22 ?
well it was just a thought i didnt hunt them yet
end if so i will heve my bol m-5 in the 45 whit mi
thanks to all your replys on pigs hunt
avi
raviv <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 16:53:11 (ZULU)
PETER L: I think I hit the motherload on your request. May have 'em pretty quick (hopefully).
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, February 8, 2002, at 16:56:46 (ZULU)
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 16:57:25 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 17:20:11 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 17:22:45 (ZULU)
Thanks Finger, 'lito & Ken for sending me the pics.
Just what I needed. Now using it as my wallpaper at the office - new job, just started this week. No telling what kind of impression that'll make :-).
Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 17:39:32 (ZULU)
Got another funny LE Sniper story.
Some years ago, we had a new man on the team. He is now a Sergeant and those who have come here for school will know him.
Well, we were on a call-out, doper son had his parents held hostage in their own home at gun point. Now that all worked out okay. nobody was hurt. Asshole was taken to jail.
While we were outside, "Devo" (Sgt Bryan) was assigned as my spotter. It was evening and the North Carolina State Birds (skeeters) were out in full force. I had aquired some cases of that old military bug juice that was banned, but really works. I put some on. "Devo" reached into his pack grabed a bottle and did the same. I had givin all the members of the sniper team some of the stuff. He started complaining that "this shit ain't working Captain". Man, he was tore up by the time we got out of there. Big lumps all over him.
We found out the problem. He didn't pay attention when he retrived the bottle.----------
Remember that the little green plastic bottle that the stuff came in. Well it is the same bottle that LSA oil came in.
Only an FNG huh?
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 18:12:53 (ZULU)
Jim, Brian, Bill, Pete and all the others with real life stories,
keep posting them, cause besides being funny, we might learn a thing or 2 out of them, well, i will anyway.
Looking forward to hear/read more of them,
Marco.
ps; Jon, in the slight event you do strike it rich with lady Diamant, don't forget to buy 2 nice hochsitzes for Pete and me, so we can come hunt german style on your new big estate. ;)
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 18:33:46 (ZULU)
May have trouble typoing this message as I'm on th floor laughing.
"Axis of power...."
Deputy Doug
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 19:02:00 (ZULU)
Many years ago when bad guys first starting putting metal grates on doors.We hit a house and it had one of the tough metal doors. Ram guy (6'5" 250lbs of muscle) was beating the hell out of the door and had cracked the frame of the house but the darned door would not open.I mentioned we should try the back door. he hands me the ram and says "You do it" Well I had never used a ram, hell I had never even been told how to use one then.
I grabbed the ram and ran around out back, where the other guys had been covering the door. Keep in mind its a murder warrant and we think he's inside. I think you must really have to hit the door hard so I smash it in with one blow. It's a solid core door. It gets us into a washroom, with another door between us and the bad guy. Now I am jacked and I hit the next door real hard but above the knob. Bad choice! The ram, my hands and arms up to the shoulder crash through and are stuck in the hollow core door. Talk about a puckered butt hole. A few seconds later. I am searching with parts of the door still attached to me and most everyone laughing his ass off.
Then there was the time we are hitting a Crack House where a murder suspect is hiding. Well all I knew is he was inside and we had a snitch. Well no one had briefed the snitch on what to do when we hit the door. As I entered and had moved about five feet inside, I was confronted by the snitch. He was coming at me, empty handed, but not getting down as I ordered. No one on the team knew who the snitch was. A few seconds later he was down and out cold after a buttstock to the face. Snitch told me it was great "No one will think I snitched after that" He got 10,000 for the info and that gust about covered his dentist bills.
Best is the time another new ram guy, not me, hit the door and threw the ram backwords taking out most of the team behind me. I noticed on the second room, when I looked for my cover guy and no one was there.
And you guys wonder why I became a sniper instead of entry work.
Undude/Mike
Gone until Monday night
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 19:11:20 (ZULU)
FYI folks . . .
Subject: Vote.com: Should State Lawmakers Limit Sniper Rifle Sales
FYI - Vote.com sends the results to the policritters...
http://www.vote.com/vote/40986268/index.phtml?cat=10882286
John <john@leveron.com>
Mid America, US of by gawd A - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 19:14:01 (ZULU)
take the froggie ribbing all in good humour,, (but it beats me why we where on their side in the last war??
Pete
Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 19:58:33 (ZULU)
Ken testing <LEMAYJ@michigan.gov>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 20:22:13 (ZULU)
Shawn kicked the door and a big piece of door trim hit a bad guy inside right in the chest, just as Shawn leveled that big Smith at him. FREEZE POLICE !!! - the guy thought Shawn shot him, clutched at his chest and passed smooth out.
We took everybody into custody, this guy is laying there cuffed and we're all wondering "what the hell happened to him ?"
He comes to and asks "Am I shot ?" We say hell no. He says "That pistol (cylinder) looked like a trash can lid". He hee. Indeed.
On another deal, we hit two crackhouses (shacks) side by side at the same time. Two Teams, ramming two barricaded doors, at once. Lots of noise and POLICE ! POLICE ! ... you get the idea.
Got the places secured and this crack whore inside kept on telling me "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry" Over and over and over. "I'm so sorry, I'm sorry".
I finally got tired of that shit and said Lady, what the hell are you so sorry for ? She said, I heard the door being hit and I thought they (rival druggies) were coming to get my dope.
She had grabbed a pistol and emptied it down the wall. We went outside and there were eight bullet holes just over head level, right where we had been standing. With all the commotion, we never heard a thing.
Ya'll have a good weekend.
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, February 8, 2002, at 20:28:23 (ZULU)
On 10/03/01 email from SMTC.
Just got of the phone with Knights guy and he is now telling me that the rifles will not be in until after Nov. but no date is available. The Navy and Secret Service are literally standing at the door wating on their guns and they are building them frist.
I can live with that after what happen on 9/11/01.
12/31/01 No guns
01/09/02 Obermeyer barrel cost went up $100.
On01/16/02 Email from SMTC SR25 will be ready to ship after Shot Show.
On 2/8/02 I had a feeling this was going to happen. Reid knight is now not hororing any purchase order that has to do with the Navy SR-25 [short barrel] to civilians unless the price goes to the $ 6000 mark of the package to the Navy Gun only.
I guess one hand does not know what the other hand is doing at Knight.
James D. LeMay PISSED OFF
LeMay <lemayj@michigan.gov>
MI, - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 20:29:46 (ZULU)
Next time you get downtown, have a cool one for me at Trader Jon's. It was a great place when I went through pilot training in 1961/62; but beware of young honeys looking for a set of gold wings to marry!!!
Keep the blue side up,
Doc
Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 21:08:31 (ZULU)
I finally got me a chandler. Man, I go to bed with this thing at night. ;-). Hope to see you soon. My son is going into the marines next year. Hes a;ready claimed my 700P. Oh well, start them young.
Firedog
firedog <sog1zero@aol.com>
SC, - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 22:48:21 (ZULU)
I better have an e-mail telling me all about that Chandler and how you got it when I get home from work tomorrow. You can't just e-mail a guy and say I got a Chandler and I'll tell you about it later. That ain't right! ;) You'll have to get your son to Blackwater too. I'll be there in April for the class. Get him in in November, if he's not in boot camp of course, and then we can all go next year to the second part, again for you. It would be great if he was stationed in NC so it wouldn't be to far to drive. Catch you on an IM.
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, February 8, 2002, at 23:09:30 (ZULU)
I've been off line for a while, but finally got some internet access here.
I have a Mark 4 M3 and a Badger mount and rings for sale if any of you are interested. I thought I would let you all know before I posted it all on the Emporium.
Mark 4 M3 10X with Premier Ret. Mil-dot.
Badger 30mm standard height rings.
Badger 20moa base for Rem. 700SA.
I'd like $1100 OBO for the whole setup or will seperate. Let me know.
Semper Fi
Steve
Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
TBS Quantico, VA, USA - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 23:52:46 (ZULU)
Tom B.
"nice shoot"
Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Friday, February 8, 2002, at 23:56:17 (ZULU)
another good tip regarding LE is to stop listening to that damn Cajun!
That boy was born trouble! Or trouble follows him. Whatever..
Brian- Up here in Yankeeland we use the tim foil trick too- especially when they need a helmet made to prevent the radio waves from entering their brain. Kind of looks like a shiny Jewish yamaka.
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 00:10:28 (ZULU)
Seems Michael of SJ doesn't like the some of the posts. Gee, magine that! Maybe he would like to send a resume in to become a moderator.
raviv, what the hell are you trying to say?
Finger, I can't believe that you need a detox center down there! LOLLOL
Andy's Dad, you may wish to lay out a budget for young Andy and indicate the expenses required to keep a girlfriend up! Important to point out that those expenses are not refundable when the relationship terminates. I imagine that a girl named "Brittany" will be extremely high maintenance.
Friday again, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 00:10:51 (ZULU)
Had a frequent flier come into the ED with the same complaint.Alliens are trying to steal my brain. After several trips to the mental health center and this guy kept coming back we made him a hat out of aluminum foil to disrupt the X rays. Have not seen him since.
Shot an AR10 today, Had the free floated barrel, muzzle brake, Springfield scope. Desperately needed a trigger job 8 lb. Long, hard, and a lot of creep. Best I could do was 3 in groups at 100yd.
Hope to get the chance to shoot it after the the trigger job. Muzzle brake worked great. Straight back minimal recoil, But back blast was brutal if standing at the side. Recoil was a lot less than my M1A. Had two failure to feed with the factory mag, always the next to last round.
Out,
TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 00:44:07 (ZULU)
Watch them knees! When I started hipower, I couldn't believe the contortions the shooters would put their legs into in order to keep "the perfect position" from disappearing.
I got one really bad knee and just can't (won't) put the pressure on it just to maintain a position. The pain isn't worth it.
I just stand up "normal-like" and drop down when the command is given.
Hey, I still hit the target!
Moe The Weak Kneed
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 00:56:31 (ZULU)
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 01:02:03 (ZULU)
Good to hear you got your new stick. Hell, you were pretty dangerous with that PSS. Can't wait to see you at Blackwater with that new Chandler. I hope Tiny gets done with my new 20" soon. I want to have some fun too.
Bolt,
I know what you mean. You would think there is an alcohol problem in this town. Never gave me a problem. hic
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 02:19:30 (ZULU)
Best Regards,
Larry
Larry <lwebdell@gloryworks.com>
Cool, Ca, US - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 02:32:44 (ZULU)
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$3GC4PQAAAARO3QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/02/09/wphil09.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/02/09/ixworld.html
Has anyone used the Dutch Gore Tex camo parka? Good? Bad?
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 02:41:55 (ZULU)
I am thinking on the DMR/ spotter rifle now. Urban/MOUT setting, light barricades(auotbodies/glass, dumpsters, exterior frame walls). I have a nice M1A but am unhappy with optics mounting options. On Roster or email- any advice/opinions would be appreciated- rifle and optics selections.
Thanks.
On LE funnies: I had a roomy once that was going through the academy- one night the entry guys needed some stoogies for exercise. My buddy was walking down the hall with his duck & a gung ho spun out of a doorway and buried his muzzle into buds chest and double tapped him with blanks. Buddy stood there talking like Emler Fudd with his t shirt smoldering 'til they put him out...
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 02:44:06 (ZULU)
Have my 6.5 X .284 ready for the match tomorrow. Alice medium is loaded with all my essential gear(even remembered ammo). Am going deliberately "light" until I figure what the match is all about...
Will be meeting Kevin Maries and Tim(Gizmo)there. Two LE buddies are going, as well. We are car pooling. Should be a good time and learning experience.
Will have a full report after the match...
Had my second interview today. Things went well. They had sorted through 83 applicants for 5 positions and I'm in final selection. Will know for sure next week.
Need to shoot just to keep from going bonkers...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 04:16:31 (ZULU)
What:
Old Military Bolt-gun competition
When:
April 6th 11:00 registration, comp starts at 12:00 tentatively
Equipment:
Any iron sighted, military bolt gun Mausers, 03's, enfields, mosins, etc. (bayonets etc earn extra points)
Where:
Pittsburgh region (Coraopolis District Sportsmans Association)
No, it's not sniper riffles, but it should be fun and fairly casual. My bro-in-law is trying to get it all set up and organized, so I told him I'd give you all a heads up. If your interested, e-mail me and I'll give you his e-mail
Later
Rich S.
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 05:04:36 (ZULU)
Hope you got the A2 upper and not the flat top\removeable handle one? If you can get it grouping 3" or less for a 10 shot string at 300 yards it'll be able to take you to high master class. If you remember from email, the AR NEEDS a float tube or you WILL flex the barrel from sling tension. With the Colt H-BAR I had 1993, could shift the POI 7 MOA towards 7 o'clock undersling tension at 100 yards!
On the positions, with a little practice you'll find what is comfortable for you. You want them comfortable, consistent, relaxed, and repeatable (with bone support). There is really no perfect position, only one perfect for you. There are some basics that the positions are built around....it's kinda like prone supported - are you angled or straight behind the rifle. Use what works for you, "If it's a dumb idea but it works, it's not a dumb idea!"
Good luck and ask if you need anything.
Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Hoping to get to the range, tommorrow, - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 05:05:33 (ZULU)
Some obscure trivia (is that redundant?) regarding the Battle of Agincourt:
Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger it would be impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore be incapable of fighting in the future.
This famous weapon was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act of drawing the longbow was known as plucking the yew" (or "pluck yew").
Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the defeated French, saying, "See, we can still pluck yew! PLUCK YEW!"
Over the years this became a symbolic gesture. Since "pluck yew" is rather difficult to say like "peasant mother pheasant plucker," which is who you had to go to for the feathers used on the arrows for the longbow, the difficult consonant cluster at the beginning has gradually changed to a labiodental fricative 'f', and thus the words often used in conjunction with the one-finger-salute are mistakenly thought to have something to do with an intimate encounter. It is also because the pheasant feathers on the arrows, that the symbolic gesture is known as "giving the bird."
Wish I could take credit for this, but I'm not that imaginative.
http://www.netpathway.com/~jdmason/finger.htm
jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 05:30:47 (ZULU)
A passle o years back when I started observing for a now retired Sgt. we were in position at the corner of a brick home in the city, across the street from a nut shooting arrows out his second story window.
I'm side & behind my Sgt & after about 2 hours, he starts gassin. Woo, bad. He says "Oh Dougie, that Italian is workin on me." I suggest he hump it back to the CP & relieve hisself. I take over the rifle(Rugs back then) & he goes to the back yard bushes to squat & poop. Of course, the homes were evacuated... or were they.
On debrief the next day, the Commander starts laughing as his worst moment was having to explain to the homeowners who had NOT evacuated, why the officer pooped in their flowers. They sat in the dark house watching the whole situation. After that we got the Sgt a roll of camo TP.
Deputy Doug
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 08:28:24 (ZULU)
hello al
aquestion for the professionals,
when do you know thet a rifle is to old to be inusage
end well likekly to rupture or " explode " in the bolt area ?
is a mauser rifle from say 1940 thet show intensive usage is safe ?
raviv
raviv <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 11:00:57 (ZULU)
Whats all this rubbish about English bowmen. They were WELSH. This would also explain why the rain and mud had little effect on them as it is the prevailing condition in my homeland (ask Pete or any Brit sqaddie who will have spent time on Sennybridge training area). These WELSH bowmen started young and trained troughout their lives to such an extent that they were reported to look deformed due to their over developed back muscles. Reports of the pull weight of typical longbows were always thought to be exagerated until they retrieved some bows from the wreck of the Tudor (the house of Tudor was Welsh; well strong links anyway) war ship 'Mary Rose' and tried them, some drew at over 175lbs. (don't forget these have no cams or pullies).
The implications to modern warfare are obvious. If you want an elite army you need to recruit WELSHMEN ;-)
Jon
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 11:14:43 (ZULU)
No problem Michael I just didn't get it! Slow in my old age.
You guys stories are a hoot!
Gonnathegunshow!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 12:56:08 (ZULU)
Brian, like the sound of that.
Pete.
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 13:52:34 (ZULU)
Thanks to all that have replied on my rifle question, I look forward to any and all comers- seem that the question is in the house already! Just need to re evaluate the options for it.
Later,
Bill Moore
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 13:55:34 (ZULU)
http://www.colt.com/colt/html/a2g5_matchtarcomphbar.html
Also have a Colt Match Target Tactical Elite like this one. I put a Loopy 4.5-14 Tactical Mildot on it. It has a Hogue handguard but no sling swivel studs so that a pod can be installed. I am trying to figure out how to drill and tap in exactly the right place to install them. I have a feeling it will be easier just to buy a handguard that is already set up with the studs.
http://www.bdlltd.com/1500-Colt_Tactical_Elite.jpg
Great, just great :( Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 15:52:30 (ZULU)
i have been using both the old version and the new version gore-tex dutch issued parka's, one is called tri-laminaat and the newest is called bi-laminaat. (it actually is not real gore-tex)
The old one did not have a hood attached and was made out of quite sturdy material, while the latest does have a large hood and a small installed liner, kinda like the american GI issued gore-tex coat.
Which one do you mean?
Personally i like the latest version very much, in my vieuw it is better than the US version, since it remains a lot longer waterproof, and takes a lot more beating from backpacks and crawling. It has 2 large pockets in front and one very lager map pocket on the inside, but it can be used without having to open your jacket. And inside the hood there is also a metal wire which allows you to wear a kevlar helmet underneath it.
All,
last week i took 100 surplus military ammo rounds, took them all apart with a kinetic bullet puller, poured all the gunpowder in one jar, weighed all 100 bullets and cases, and then i made 50 "new" rounds with an exact amount of 44 grains of the same powder and with 50 bullets who were more or less of the same weight into 50 cases who were more or less of the same weight.
Now this did not make them into competition ammo but it sure did improve for the accuracy.
This ofcourse is not a new trick and i am sure many of you guys have done this before.
But i got a question for all of you, i know military and LE snipers are not allowed to use selfmade handloaded ammo, wright?
But are they also not allowed to reload the factory ammo? What i mean is this, is a police sniper allowed to reload rounds of their Federal issued "sniper" ammo, in the same manner as i did the above mentioned surplus rounds??
Marco.
ps; never gonna do this again, not with surplus ammo anyway, was a lot of work and instead of 7cm groups it now gives 4-5cm groups, not worth the hassle.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 16:54:41 (ZULU)
bones <bilzill@aol.com>
Colo, USA - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 18:32:53 (ZULU)
Does anybody have any info or experience with reloading 300wsm at subsonic velocities? I thought it may be possible with the short case. Please contact offline. Thanks
Katfish
Katfish <katfish@itctel.com>
SD, USA - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 18:50:47 (ZULU)
I've never heard of LE folks "reloading" factory ammo as what is generally used produces very acceptable results, at least from accuracy standpoint. Some LE folks still ask for "better performing" round although no one reports any properly placed 168 gr BTHP's passing through a bad guys melon failing to stop same. I couldn't imagine anyone being able to adequately explain justification for changing the factory stuff. Significant issues of concern should something not go right. Same reason I suggest FNG's never carry anything but factory, dept issued ammo in "off duty" guns.
For kicks & general interest I can see doing it. I scavenged some 400 gr solid bronze .458's out of some .458 win mags to load in my .45-70 to see if it was worth building a bear load. Like you said though, not really worth the time spent. Factory CorBons will do the job quite fine.
Just got one of our dept 700PSS's back from a local well respected rifle builder. Trigger set at a crisp 4#, barrel nicely cut to 20", bolt smoothed out, nice improvement in application. Groups still sub moa. very happy. Gonna have the others done too.
Deputy Doug
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 19:51:10 (ZULU)
Doug, thnx, thought it would be a civil law suit pending...
And yup, for LE ranges it would probably not matter much, guess factory ammo is accurate enough up to 100 yards (average LE shot being 75 yards, wright?)
Lito,
and other Winchester owners,
today i shot my Winnie over the Chrono and i am not sure if the readings it gave are accurate, cause they seem to be pretty high...
I shot the before mentioned 155 grains scenar, behind 47 grains of N150, OAL 2.9055 inch...and the chrono read an average of 960 m/s = 3150 f/s!
The chrono was standing 3 meters = +/- 10 feet in front of the muzzle. Is this possible, or is my chrono no longer working correctly?
Cause i never had speeds over 860, but then again it is the first time i used this setup of components.
(group sizes were ok, 4 5-shot groups of .9545 inch, .684 inch, .963 inch and a personal mistake of 1.5655 inch, i am happy enough for now)
Tomorrow another shooting day, only this time the more agressive kind, "Dynamic Service Rifle", killing bowling pins and clay-pigeons with a glock and an AR15A4, should be a hoot.
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Saturday, February 9, 2002, at 20:51:05 (ZULU)
Lory <Cj785@aol.com>
PA., USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 02:19:24 (ZULU)
Just back from the sniper match...to quote a WWII pilot in the Far East Campaign "Our Assam Draggin'"!
Shoot started at 600 yards, so if you didn't have dope on your rifle and know your come-ups you were toast. I like that. Choice of Bullseye or small swinging for extra points. Went for the swinger and center punched it with the 6.5 X .284. That puppy packs some energy downrange...no doubt about the hit! We had six rounds in two minutes which included set up time. I got four rounds off with two hits...long story , but did OK for a first attempt.
Next stage at 300 yards...six rounds in two minutes. Shot 45 out of 50 on the bullseye target. Small secondary target worth 20 points a hit looked small so I went with the bullseye target.
Stage 3...two minutes standing, kneeling, to sitting for a total of six rounds. Shot absymally. Screwed up my wrist going from kneeling to sitting and that ended my shooting for the day...:-(
Other stages included movers at two hundred and a crawl and shoot stage. Great course and time.
Match sponsors included Leupold who donated a M3 LR, and others. Great gift table for all.
Outcome?
Our occasional poster SSGT Kevin Maries won overall match. I swear he was born with an M-24 in his hand! Anyone that bitches about the Army system hasn't seen this lad shoot! Hell of a nice guy and one of my shooting compadres. Was glad to see him win the beatiful match trophy.
Tim/GIZMO was there, as well. Don't know his overall ranking, but did find out that he has THREE donkey balls. Two green and one black...don't ask! He's not going to live this one down anytime soon.
Lt. Sheldon Roy, OSCI took high military classification and Luke Harry placed in the top 20 shooters. Great guys and pals of mine. We DID have a great day.
Met fellow list member Jim Liles, too. Great gent and helped run the matches at Tri-County Gun Club. Super facility! Makes ARPC and The Wren range look like poor cousins(they ARE closer).
Lesson's learned: I HATE after action reports that begin "we learned a lot". Well, I learned a lot. Will handle reactive targets differenctly in the future and will not shoot first.
Time was the big factor. Lost shots not fired. On reactive stuff remember that the target swinging is smaller except when at center arc and you don't really have time to let it settle down.
BIG LESSON! Get body back in shape. It showed on the position shooting. Have not done any position work for a decade and it showed.
All in all a stellar day. The weather gods smiled and we had no rain, some sun, and a balmy 55 degrees mid-day. Doesn't get better than that!
Thanks to all who attended, shot, and helped run the match.
Semper Fi,
Wes
P.S. I'm back in the brace and will be seeing the doctor on Monday. Ouch! Guess that's another lesson...heal up BEFORE pushing the envelope...;-)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 04:18:24 (ZULU)
On the sniper match...did I mention that I was the only one there gutsey enough to wear a "www.snipercountry.com" ball cap?
By the way, the new Army black berets look rediculous...most of the troops agreed, but are wearing them. Another "gift" not earned...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 04:30:21 (ZULU)
Did you notice I was the only one gutsy enough to wear an Oregon State sweatshirt?
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 04:51:08 (ZULU)
Your Colt Comp HBAR is not legal for NRA Service Rifle. I am almost 100% positive that it must be a fixed handle (A2) gun, not detachable like you have.
Also, the lack of a free floated handguard and a single stage trigger will drive you up a wall. Sling tension will pull your shots down and left and the trigger will lack the control you need.
Those Colts were not meant for hipower shooting. For $1,200 you can buy a Rock River Arms DCM rifle that is NRAHP legal and shoots outstandingly out of the box. If you buy the upper and lower seperately you can save $300. That's what I did! :-)
The Tactical Elite handguard should be able to be drilled for a Harris #5 adapter. I'm not familiar with that handguard but it appears there is enough room for the adapter (very low profile) to fit without any interference. I'm assuming it's two piece like the regular guards.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 05:34:13 (ZULU)
Mike Miller <mmbackpacker@hotmail.com>
MCAS Yuma, AZ, USA! - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 06:01:50 (ZULU)
Sorry man, I didn't mean to wee wee in your Weaties. I have found that the majority of clubs shooting reduced course matches are trying to get as manyy people interested in high power shooting as possible. They "usually" don't care if your rifle is CMP|NRA service rifle legal. They try to train and coach newbies so that shooters are ready when they venture out onto the "big line". Besides, if they do have issue you'll just get grouped in with the match rifle shooters - they key is that you are shooting the established courses of fire. Speaking of match rifles....for your other toy, go to OK Weber and check out an RPA rear sight and a front barrel band and aperature sight. Very easy to turn that puppy into a match rifle and the UNDUDE SLING IS LEGAL FOR IT! I have seen many match rifle handguards drilled and tapped, or milled for a handrail. One guy even took a front swivel assembly from an M14 and bolted the thong to it.
The removeable carry handle hasn't been approved (yet) for CMP, and a big issue that I've heard mentioned (second hand info here so take yer salt first) is that the threaded elevation shank on the rear sight had to be shortened to allow it to work in the removeable handle, there may not be enough elevation there to get you out to 600. Just shoot it and get your cherry good and busted. If you want to get serious about competing then I would recommend one of the builders I emailed you about. Get a service rifle upper made up and be happy. As for float tubes... you can install one yourself without too much trouble. In the mean time, don't crank into the sling really hard - just be consistent. Remember, I'm 6'4" and 260# (I went 225# @ 9% body fat when I flexed the barel)
If the specs from the link match your rifle go with the 60 gr varminter or 69 gr match king for 100 & 200 yard matches as well as 300 rapids in a 300 yard reduced match. Go with the 75 grain A-Max for slow prone at 300.
I shot my new upper today, Groups were acceptable considering how meticulous I was at loading them (I pulled bullets from known charge loaded rounds and seated different weight bullets on top 'cuz my powder measure is "out of reach" at the moment). I shot 3 different bullets and two different powders, 6 ten shot groups averaged about an inch and a quarter at 100 yards. Some rounds were "standard loads" that I had established velocities for in several other uppers. Both Varget and RE 15 were consistently 125 fps slower out of the new barrel. Now I know that I need to shoot these puppies side by side in both of my uppers to get good info but I actually hope that the temperature caused it - 55 today, 85 when I cronoed the other upper. Plan to do side by testing at 300 and 600 as soon as I can. Man, I do not want to have to deal trying to get acceptable velocities when my "standard loads" did it with ease until now.
Hit me off Roster for some more complete discussion if you want.
Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Tired and confused, in South West PA, USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 06:17:57 (ZULU)
On the new digital Cammies:
I guess I'm one of those old Devildogs you are refering to. I haven't used or seen them in the field yet, but those that have told me they work pretty good in the bush. I have only seen pictures of them.
To me all that matters is that the pattern is good, and the construction is field worthy.
The woodland and desert models look pretty good. I not really sure yet about the urban model though. I'm not sure the digital stuff will work as well as a straight lines and angles pattern. I would like to see it.
I heard people for years in the Corps bitching that cammies looked like hell in the rear and were not as good looking as the sateens. That used to drive me crazy, because sateens were worthless in the bush. Then people want to starch cammies. Now to me, that is stupid.
If your job calls for starched cammies, you should probably be wearing "charlies" or something. Just wanted to bitch a little okay guys?
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 07:35:39 (ZULU)
Anybody have a good abbreviated format for this? If so, please drop it to me on email. Or, better yet post it to the DR, its a good topic.
Thanks
MICTAC:
Pls check your email.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 11:49:07 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 12:43:38 (ZULU)
KEB
KEB <BeggsKE@raytheon.com>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 12:54:48 (ZULU)
Filling station/repair shop where my wife does the accounting/book keeping got robbed the other night, masked gunman made of on foot with about $8000 and a day or two earlier my mates gun shop got done over and the thieves took 32 hand guns, seems you can lock away what you want, and have all the security measures installed, if some one is intent on having what ever your keeping, they will stop at nothing to get it.
Pete.
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 13:32:06 (ZULU)
In all honesty, having and using reloaded ammunition is not a basis for a lawsuit. The type of ammo you use, hollowpoint, frangible, or Uranium tipped +P+ ( the infamous NUKE a PUKE rounds)doesn't apply in use of force/deadly force issues.
Where it could apply is with a scumbag attorney asking you on the stand questions about your bullet testing, ammunition protocol, etc and whether you loaded those rounds to intentionally cause more suffering to his client. You will probably win most of these arguements easily, but the lawyer now has clouded the issue in front of the jury. That is just a headache you, and your attorney, don't want to deal with. That's why factory ammo is the way to go for LE.
Nitpick though- a year or two ago Undude and I had a series of posts on the LE average shot range. It isn't 75 yards here. Nobody knows what it is-no national records are kept in the US. No big deal- just don't like to see an urban legend thrive.
Undude- MARPAT and CANPAT. Isn't there an issue with the camo "clumping" up so it becomes one color after a bit of distance?
Something having to do with the resolution of your eye, etc. A bit foggy remembereing this data so take it with caution.
Jefe- will check.
Steve (hockeyref) will be sending a request for the CMP info offline if thats OK. FWIW- my detachables are marked out to 600-the A2's go out to 800.
Mike T <RIflemike@home.com>
- Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 15:13:37 (ZULU)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51720-2002Feb9.html
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 16:55:10 (ZULU)
Some one asked about the Schmidt & Bender PMII 10x42, In my oppinion it is an excellent scope, has the best optics available, and is proportionaly perfect,If my 3-12x50PMII is anything to go by the 10x42 will be 100% reliable, clear and bright, spec's are:
field of view: 4m at 100m,(12'at 100y)
eye relief: 95mm (3.74")
Reticle: in Objective plane, Byrant or Mildot available.
Tube Dia : 30 mm
overall length: 346mm (13.622")
weight: 520g (18 oz)
Adjustment: Total 270 cm at 100m (97.2" at 100y)
Quadratic 250 cm at 100m( 90" at 100y)
1 turn of BDC is 130cm at 100m (46.8" at 100y)
1 click = 1cm at 100m (0.358" at 100y)on the standard BDC cam every 2nd click is marked with a short white line, every 10th click is marked with a longer white line. BDC are held in place by 2 2mm allen screws. and apparently marked BDC's can be had in a few calibers and S&B will engrave BDC's for custom balistic tables.
The only 2 faults I can find is the lack of a parallax adjustment,(set at factory for 300m) Ive mentioned this to several S&B staff (including the boss) several times, maybe one day they will take note, and for target shooting, the reticle tends to cover a little to much of the target if you are trying to shoot small groups, if its one shot one kill you are after than the reticle is perfect. If they would produce a 3-12x42 PMII(and a 4-16x) about the same basic size as the 10x42, add a paralax side adjustment and price them $1200, they would sell them as fast as they could build em, id but 2 for a start.
Pete.
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 17:02:51 (ZULU)
Anyone else having trouble accessing the hot links key on the main page or is it just my headspacing!!
K Steege <ksteege@kc.rr.com>
Lansing, KS, USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 17:30:13 (ZULU)
Marco, i just camen across the article about Menke's 6.5x284. Ill scan it in and mail you it..
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 18:22:27 (ZULU)
All:
I: Missing hot links - the file for the hot links is simply not there... Marius - will have to take care of that one.
II: Spamming, etc. I need to speak with Marius about this one - but we can display the email addresses in a format that will be invalid if picked up by one of those 'email address mining robots'. Yes -spammers mine all kinds of websites and chat boards for valid email addresses. Bottom line is - if someone wants to mine the site for email addresses - they will get your email address. Boogering up the email addresses will slow them down - but not stop them completely.
III: Spam filtration - If any of younz get a message that looks like:
"550 We dont accept mail from spam mail servers. Contact mpactarea@hotmail.com"
Then contact me at that email address listed in the message. If you or your isp or whoever is designated as your "outbound mail server" - has a mail server that is not secured against spam - and - we get spam from that mailserver - we will blacklist that server. I might attempt to complain to them - if I have time - otherwise - I let their users complain to them - when their mail bounces.
I have found that in due time - most of those mail server owners will have gotten rid of their spamming customer.
Our policy is: "Spam is spam and that's it"
(Yes - I am on the warpath about spam ---- )
Do youn'z feel another raffle coming on? The source of our first riffle rifle says he's got one ready to go - as in now....
Semper Fi Hawgs....
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 19:21:33 (ZULU)
Jim, BALLSEY MOVE wearing that Oregon State University sweatshirt. I live in the OSU area and I don't even own one!
Finger, agree on Sateens...looked good starched, in garrison, and not so hot in the field. Liked the slant pocket woodlands the best. As to the new computer generated pattern the Russians used it for a long time in their "spetznatz" camoflauge. I have one of those suits and it's not only comfortable, but effective. Very light weight...perfect for summer wear or winter as an overgarment. Crafty devils...
Schmidt and Bender...would love to own one, but for now will stick to the MK IV Luppies and Vari-X III M1 LR's
Today? Clean 6.5 X .284 and stow gear. My custom Med. Camo Alice pack performed admirably in the field, is VERY comfortable, and holds enough "kit" for a week in the field, if needed.
Oh, knee and elbow pads. Saw A LOT of these at the shoot. Knee modes were OK, but those with "hard" shelled elbow pads discovered they rock badly and were fighting for solid positions...just an observation.
I should hear about the Corrections positions next week. Think it's a go...wife not to sure as it means we'll move closer to my shooting buddies...;-)
Sniper County ball cap and T'shirt. Great quality ball cap and comfortable...no break in needed. You need one of these...forgive the shameless plug for the web site.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 19:38:44 (ZULU)
How shall I say this...HELL YEAH!!! BRING ON 'DA RIFFLE RAFFLE!!! WOOOHOOO!!!
sorry fer the outburst.
Later fellas,
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 20:26:06 (ZULU)
Well, I am over my shock on the mouse gun service riffle deal. Thanks to emails from some fine Rosterferians, I now understand the predicament. This is boiling down to buying a new upper which is a perty big dollar outlay. I guess I will just shoot for shits and grins like I do in 'F' Class but I still need a floating tube to keep from bending my barrel with my massive musculature.
I have really never understood military camo designs. The hunting camo designs are much better. Ifin ewe are in de wooods, youins need to look like de woooods youins are in. I guess they are trying the best of both worlds but I agree with most others. If you are looking with the neked eye, all you will see at long distance will be a silloute. The closer you get, or the better optics the bad guys have, the more the actual pattern comes into play.
Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 21:37:47 (ZULU)
Go to a bike shop to get some elbow pads. Dont get the ones with the hard shells, but the soft ones. They're longer and are rubber coated on the outside. They are slip-on's, and have an elastic strap with velcro at the bicep. They improve stability greatly. Even better than wearing an NRA High Power shooting coat. About $45 a pair.
For knee pads I got some at a police supply shop. Made of hardened rubber. Quieter than the plastic things, and provide traction too. They attach with elastic straps and velcro. About $25 a pair.
Good luck on the job thing.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 23:44:35 (ZULU)
Andy bagged two crows today. First one was a measured 525 yards cold bore shot. He did the creep thing in the Ghillie until he couldn't get any closer. The boy makes me proud.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 00:26:49 (ZULU)
Go Andy!
I missed a crow at 400yds today, I misjudged the distance. I was using my mouse gun and it has a different type scope. More practice.
Out,
TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 01:49:50 (ZULU)
RIFFLE RAFFLE - RIFFLE RAFFLE - RIFFLE RAFFLE - RIFFLE RAFFLE
Send me a ticket!
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 02:00:52 (ZULU)
Even though I don't post here that often, I've been the recipient of quite a few spam emails in the last week. Been forwarding all of the spam I have been recieving for $25 million from diamond mines in Africa back to their providers (in these cases, they were all from yahoo.com). Hopefully, they'll shut down those accounts.
Re: Riffle Raffle
I'm game again for it. Don't mind donating my money to a good cause like this site, it's a proverbial treasure trove of shooting information to be found here.
Re: Para-Ord LDA's (7.45 and 12.45)
Curious to feedback on these series of handgun. Been looking into getting a 1911-chassis handgun for some local silloute competition, and I've heard many good things about them. Things like fit/finish, reliability, quirks, and performance I am interested in from someone that has used and abused this handgun.
I don't forsee building this gun into a full-race one, but you know how it starts, always something small.. next thing you know you've spent 4x the amount of the original price of the gun on upgrading it... trying to keep it somewhat reasonable, already got expensive enough hobbies without having a handgun vying for my wallet.
Jon
Jon Quirit <jquirit@yahoo.com>
Chatsworth, CA, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 02:01:17 (ZULU)
Would like to put a flattop M4 on my wishlist. Have an AR-15A2, but don't know much about the civilian M4 or who makes them. Would appreciate recommendations. And how about the Leupold CQ/T scope? Nice review in the latest American Rifleman.
William M.
William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 02:28:03 (ZULU)
M24 question. What kind of finish is on these, and what all does the manufacturer ( I understand Remington builds them.) do to the action? I got to play with one, and have to say, this was about the slickest, easiest cycling bolt gun I've come across.
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 02:32:53 (ZULU)
You are right on about the silouette thing and camouflage. You always need to eliminate that humanoid shape (the head and shoulders).
My opinions:
As far as the commercial cammies, they are good as long as the patern is fairly large and not to small and detailed. The latter tends to blot out into one color at longer ranges first.
I believe the real key to concealment is for the sniper to understand the difference between positive and negative space, and how to use them to his advantage. He must learn how to move, blend and live in the shadows. This concept of space works in any enviroment and will multiply the effects of using good camouflage clothing and techniques.
Maybe that will generate some thought.
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 03:33:32 (ZULU)
thanks
Robert French <rdfrench@netscope.net>
- Monday, February 11, 2002, at 03:37:29 (ZULU)
Military camo (i.e. woodland camo) is supposed to be for more than one environment. Its easy for a design such as Advantage Timber to work well in a late fall, decidous forest but put that pattern in a jungle and it stands out. A grunt doesnt have a wall locker of uniforms to chose from, "Hmmmmm, lets see....should I go with the Late fall, early winter, coniferous pattern on this op or should I use the late winter, early spring scheme??" Nope its basic issue and hope they get you desert pattern before you set foot in the big sand box. And besides, we all know that a Harvest Gold jumper and matching pumps is the year round crowd pleaser when it comes to sniper fashions anyway. I just find it hard to put an ensemble together based on the issue crap that the DOD is sticking the boys with these days. Why, Rosie O'Donnel had this parachute on the other day that really caught my eye (got it on a blue light special at Kmart I hear).
FInger is right. Most patterns blob out at 100 yards or so to the naked eye anyway. My fav uniform is a faded out set of OD jungles, woodlands are cool when they fade too.
Been backing up files on my old computer today as I prepare to re install windows. Jeese....I need a CD burner.
Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Monday, February 11, 2002, at 04:12:22 (ZULU)
Thanks for exposing my donkey balls... I finished tied for 18th. Not bad for shooting 9 rounds at 200yds since October at the Wilson Match.
Jim from PDX,
If I hadn't been in uniform, I would have had my Ducks cap on... sorry. Thanks for all the hard work you guys did on the match. It was a good one. We had a great time.
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 04:37:47 (ZULU)
Re: Spam
Most Spammers make it very hard to determine where the e-mail originates. Not usually from the address indicated in the email message.
This Site will allow you to put in the email header and the rest of the email - then attempt to determine where it originated and give you the contact e-mail address for the system operator. I use the Spam Cop to contact the system operator and also copy the addresses into the Forward Message address and forward the Porn Junk to them. I usually try to keep the diamond mine things sceret.
http://spamcop.net
It is free.
Regards
Charley
Charley <cmeng@yahoo.com>
KY, - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 05:05:06 (ZULU)
Hey, I saw a reference to a gent posting on here of Bill Wyldeman. You aint a former 18D are ya? I was attached to an "A" team for a school at Bragg in 1987 and we had a feller in the team by that name. You aint him are ya?
Lemay, good luck on the SR. You werent under the influence when you made that post were ya?
OUt here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Monday, February 11, 2002, at 05:07:50 (ZULU)
I was looking at the C-More handguards for my Bushmaster Car. The ones with the P'tinny rails and is also a floater. Do you know if it is of good quality?
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 05:18:59 (ZULU)
Kevin of the Great White North <cantac@shaw.ca>
- Monday, February 11, 2002, at 07:23:33 (ZULU)
Case lube? I simply soak them with a little dish soap for a few minutes, then vibrate them again for a few. Use a strainer (colander, for those of you closer to the kitchen. ;>) and let them drip dry a few minutes. They dry nice and clean with no water spots. For stuck kernels in the flash hole, I usually just use a flash hole reamer on the RCBS Case Prep anyway. Works like a charm and little work to it all.
Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Monday, February 11, 2002, at 07:45:51 (ZULU)
about the M4, if i am not mistaking bushmaster makes one, i got an AR15A4 from Colt, flattop, 16 inch barrel, but it does not have the small incline in the barrel where you can attach the 203.
And about the Leupold cq/t scope, if you read the archives 2 weeks back or so, it was being discussed by folks with more experience than me when it comes to such scopes, and the overall vieuw of it was that it is not worth your money (yet).
Marco.
ps; still need an answer if 3150 f/s is possible with a 155 grain .308, still unsure if the chrono is working correctly, anyone??
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 12:14:50 (ZULU)
Marco had asked if it were possible to run a 155 gr. Sierra Match King to 3,150 FPS from a .308...
According to the Sierra Manual you can go 2,900 FPS from a 26" barrel.
Add 3-4 inches and maybe another 100 or so...
My understanding is the Brits have pushed this to the limit by using compressed charges and bullets seated so far out as to barely be held by the case. Don't know about the load data. To darn scarey for me...guess I'm a wimp as I load all my stuff to 2.800" to cycle through my magazine...
Frankly, Marco, this is pushing the envelope a bit for this lad!
If you need more shoot more...the Sierra Manual shows a 155 MK can be pushed to 3,300 FPS in the .300 Win. Magnum
Optics Question: What are you guys using for spotting scopes in your rucks. Would love to have one of the 25X Luppies, but they are out of production. Rick, I think you use a 20 X 40X Luppie. Comments?
My 15X Kowa is to bulky and heavy for my needs...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 12:42:50 (ZULU)
It took a little while, but I finally talked to the guy that shoots the 6mm/.22-250. The guy said that he was shooting a 27" Hart barrel on a Remington action. He is shooting the 107 SMK. He said that his load was 36.5 grains of VV N-160 and that his velocity on an average temperature day was 2950 fps. He also said that this load got up to 3000 fps on really hot days.
This guy's partner shoots a .250 Savage case necked to 6mm and is getting almost identical performance out of a similarly built rifle. This guy is shooting 37.0 grains if IMR-4350 behind the 107 SMK.
Sorry it took so long but I hope it helps.
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 13:20:56 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 13:57:02 (ZULU)
Gooch - Yeah she's been shopping there ever since she single handedly closed the place down. I like the camo undies for when nature calls and you get the shocking white on camo effect. :-)
Finger - You hit it man, if you do not use natural then you may as well be naked out there. The base uniform is only what you hang the natural stuff off of and the garnish of course.
Jim - Try tooth paste in the action and cycle it a few times and the action will get smoother. You were lucky on the action or someone did do the tooth paste trick. Of the M24s we have some are a real bear to operate when they get the slightest dirty. Of course a little grease in the firing pin relase area helps. :-)
Kevin (Andy's Dad) - I see the girls have not started to effect his shooting none. Guess he is keeping each i their proper perspective.
Opps, got to go, bosses showing up and got students on the range. Goofing off this class and doing paperwork to give this old fart a break.
Hold Hard guys
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 15:17:57 (ZULU)
Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 20:33:44 (ZULU)
Marco, sounds like your chrono is playing up.
Slick Remington actions, Jon Beardsley, how did you rate my 308, smoother than standard or what? and i just found out about a 600m range within a half hours drive from my parents, its near the M62, some where near Bradford, I'll be checking it out next time Im over.
Pete L
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 20:39:39 (ZULU)
Pete, I think the range you are on about is Diggle. Its a 1000yd (thousand) range. It is a private range (not MOD) and I think you have to be put forward by a member and seconded. During the week it is apparently in constant use by the Greater Manchester Police, so the club shooting goes on at the weekends. I have made a couple of contacts there and it has been my intention to join; once I get a $%"&ing rifle to shoot (you already know that story). I'm not sure how they arrange the use of different ranges/distances.
On my bolt, I can't recall seeing a slot mackined into the main body of the bolt (pretty sure it's not there).
Cheers
Jon
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, February 11, 2002, at 21:39:40 (ZULU)
You probably didn't even notice the slot machined into the Bolt, I didn't untill I looked for it, check it when(and if !! just kidding) you get your rifle back, its like the slot in the firing pin where you can stick a coin in and this holds the pin back so you can unscrew the thing, Ive never met a remington owner yet over here that new it was even there.
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 22:05:17 (ZULU)
I am a dog handler for the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office
also assigned to one of two, two man sniper teams on our tactical unit.
Our team commander wanted to test the possibility of using a K-9 to search the threat area of a staircase on a tactical problem. I said no problem.
Bruno, my partner, has gotten somewhat of a bad wrap. 90lbs german shepard. The last meat bite he got was a pursuit and the turd, excuse me suspect, happend to get bit in the head. O well poop happens!!
Anyway ther we are in one of the buildings we use, Bruno and I are are in the front of the assault stack and I send him after the decoy hidding up stairs. I hear him engage the decoy ,in a bite suit. I then hear him comming back down the stairs and so do the other guys who contrary to my instructions all take off running like a bunch of sallys. They were all looking for something to climb,get into or under.
so much for bad ass swat team!!!!
JIM ANDERSON <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 22:20:30 (ZULU)
Pete L
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 23:29:51 (ZULU)
You can get an M4 flattop from Bushmaster with a permanently attached muzzle brake for postban use or with a threaded barrel for preban use. Both have the M203 cutout.
If you want a Colt M4 flattop, you can go to www.rguns.net or Hoplite (see their ad in SGN). WHEN they have them, they run about $700 without bolt and carrier.
Or you can sneak over to www.subguns.com and see what's for sale. I picked up a new Colt M4A3 flattop with detachable handle and A2 birdcage for $600 sans bolt or carrier (which I already had).
The Loopy CQ/T is cool but for $600 I'd wait for them to improve the battery life and maybe shorten it up a bit.
Have a look at the IOR M2 Tacticle scopes available at the PX. About half the price of the Loopy and comes in a funky green color too.
Wes -
Have you looked at the IOR Hermes 1 spotter at the PX? Good glass and has that funky green color! I got mine with the 20-45X variable eyepiece and it's quite compact and light.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Monday, February 11, 2002, at 23:59:37 (ZULU)
Any of ya know the throat length in a DPMS DCM 1:8twist SS A15 service rifle, or have an OAL for said rifle with the 80gr SMK?? I'm looking for what the factory leade would be and the corresponding OAL of an 80gr load.
Thanks for the help.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 00:24:16 (ZULU)
What are you going to do with that $6.5 million;-))
S/F
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 00:38:48 (ZULU)
Pete.
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 00:55:40 (ZULU)
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 01:26:23 (ZULU)
Traders is still alive and kicking, owned by a naval aiv-skater, as far as the female clientel, if I can make it thru a month in the P.I.as a young 18-year old PCF and not get married, Trader's will be no match! Long live The Imperial Battle Phrog!!! CH46 4EVR
On Looking for M4's, Try www.deltafoce.com, some good odd-ball stuff there
Any one in the P-cola area, lemme know if there is a decent range, loger than 200 yds in the AO. If the gods smile upon me, my scope from US Optics will be done before I'm an old man. My rifle is lookin' naked wit no glass on top.
Gooch, On camo stuff
Whadda ya think of the new junk the Corps is peddling? I've seen it in the bush, it seems to work good in the close up area, but I've only seen it in limited use. But, I suppose it don't matter much for me anymore, traded my cammies for some sage green P.J.'s
Semper Fi.
Kush out
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florabamma, US of A - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 02:43:18 (ZULU)
Andy's dad. Im in phase II of the McClellan deal. Thier recent attempt to deter me is making me write to the State HQ requesting ranges. I think this will be the last hurdle as I have a meeting with the Governor soon on another matter. McClellan is fixin to find out who they are screwing with.
Out here.
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 02:47:05 (ZULU)
Go ahead and shoot... don't worry about the deer, they will adapt. I shoot here at my house all the time. Four+ bucks like my apple trees more than they dislike the shooting. Sometimes they hang around while I am shooting.
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 03:40:37 (ZULU)
Guys, anyone watching Einstein TV, my mission is bieng featured, maybe see my ugly mug, hell I sit here and fly the space craft and they are on TV, don't get that in every job eh? cool.
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 04:07:33 (ZULU)
Where is the cheapest place anyone has found on the net to get a new Leupold M3 LR with a mil dot???(or duplex) Thanks for everyone's help !!
BUFF
BUFF <tiger_dog1998@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 05:22:50 (ZULU)
Thanks
Rick
ps a search engine would help in searching previous postings
Rick Fiero <rafiero@mindspring.com>
Greenbrae, Ca, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 06:01:43 (ZULU)
polygonal rifling holds no place in the tactical arena, period.... yet
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 07:10:00 (ZULU)
20km Biathlon:
1. Ole Einar Bjorndalen, Norway
2. Frank Luck, Germany
3. Victor Majgurov, Russia
Want something to train for? Try this:
Start:
4km cross country skiing, 5 shots prone 50m at 4.5cm(app.1.6") falling plate targets.
4km skiing, 5 shots standing at 11cm(4") targets.
4km skiing, 5 shots prone.
4km skiing, 5 shots standing.
4km skiing, finnish.
Winners time: 49min.3sec. + 2min penalty(2 misses)=51min.3sec.
Unbeleavable...
torf <torf@aftenposten.no>
- Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 08:51:39 (ZULU)
Roger, out
Ref: GEN 2 Mil-Dot
I got my M1LR back with the new reticle and the M3LR goes out today. It is a real improvement guys. Also the Kill-Flash ARD is great. It is far superior to that small honeycomb thing I had before.
out
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 10:19:33 (ZULU)
My question is, "Why would anyone spend the money to build or acquire a rifle capable of 1/4 moa and then mount a scope that has only 1 moa adjustment capability?" Isn't that kind of self defeating? The 1 click adjustment to go to 200 yards from a 100 yard zero envolves a change of 4 to 5 inches; where's the ability to "fine tune?"
Donney <dcallred@duke-energy.com>
Texas, Texas - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 10:33:32 (ZULU)
I was almost set on building my Sniper rig on the Savage 10FP because it seems to have proven itself (with some mods) to be able to keep up with the Remmys and Winnys out there.
But today I found in my American Rifleman an ad by "R Guns" www.rguns.net for Pre-war FN Manufactured 98Ks that were converted by the Israeli Government to 7.62x51 in the 1950s for $129 ($10 more for hand sellect).
Now if I'm not mistaken, the 98K is what everything else has been compared to since the 98K was designed. So I'm thinking, even if I toss everything except the bolt and receiver I'ed be way ahead of the game. I'ed have a base rig with a custom barrel right from the get go and would have the $260 differance over the Savage for the barrel.
I'ed still be dropping the whole thing in a McMillan A-2 stock with Badger 20 MOA base and rings with a Loopy 3.5-10x40 LR M3 w/2nd Generation Mil-Dot Reticle and Butler Creek flip-ups. So that cost would be the same no matter which way I went.
All in all, this seems the better way to go, or am I missing something about the 98K action that says NOPE ???
TreverSlyFox <treverslyfox@greendragoninn.zzn.com>
Houston, Missouri, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 11:00:11 (ZULU)
Check out the Hot Tips/Cold Shots section of Sniper Country.......
Usually all it takes is engaging multiple targets, at differing ranges, under a time constraint, to fully appreciate the "Barbaric" 1 moa ADJUSTMENTS on the M-3 series.
I have a B&L Tactical (100 + MOA in 1/4moa adj.) for such precise stuff, mounted on a .300RUM 700P, i think? cain't remember GGGGGaski!
Behave all!
And I didn't even say VARGET once....
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 11:44:31 (ZULU)
I'v read and re-read every post (well, maybe not every post) on the choice between the M1 or M3 on here and several other Sniper/Long Range shooting boards and so far this is what I've come up with:
The choice between the M1 or M3 is really a question of WHAT your going to be doing with it!
The M1 seems to be the way to go if your looking for Target or LEO work. The M1 has 1/4 MOA adjustments that require more than 1 full turn of the turrent to go from 100 yards to 1000 yards. For Target work that is needed. Also in LEO work you need the adjustment of 1/4 MOA because you target is quite small, a head shot is 1" behind and 1" below the ear (mendula shot, SP?) at less than 200 yards, I think the average shot is 75 yards. With LEO work or Target work you have the time to really get your Range and Wind estimations down pat and you have plenty of time to see that your "come-ups" are set right on the scope so if it's more than 1 turn to go from 100 to 1000 yards it's no big deal.
The M3 is the Military Sniper Scope which is a whole different ball game. Your Taking Long and Short range shots but your target is MUCH bigger. Your looking for Center of Mass hits and you can be off 1 MOA in Range and/or Wind estimations and still make the shot on 2 Legged targets because your target's "Center of Mass" is about 14" wide and 20" long (Shoulder to Hips). With the M3 you can set the turrent in between the clicks so you can get it down to 1/2 MOA with ease. Since the M3 goes from 100 yards to 1000 yards in 1 turn of the turrent you don't have to remember in the heat of combat if you re-set it like you would with the M1 turrent with it's OVER 1 turn to 1000 yards. Plus the M3 has the BDC which for the Military your generaly using just 1 Loading like the M118LR amunition. But you can ignore the BDC if your using something other than what the BDC is set for by just using your "come-ups" for that round.
All in All, the question of the M1 over the M3 comes down to What your going to use it for.
If I've missed anything or mis-represented something I'm sure one of the other Guys will point it out.
TreverSlyFox <treverslyfox@greendragoninn.zzn.com>
Houston, Missouri, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 11:44:55 (ZULU)
I've got one of each and like them both. The M3 seems to fit the bill just a little better than the M1 for me. Even for "surgical" work you can bias your hold just a little and do just fine. I had no trouble matching my ammunition to a dial and now feel quite comfortable with it. I shot the Sniper Challange last October with my M3 and had no problem with the close in stuff. It sure was nice not to have to refer to a data table when I had to shift from range to range under time constraints. I think the whole 1/4 minute stuff is a carry over from target shooting and really doesn't matter much in the field. I've reached the point where I seldom dial in my windage anymore. If I do it's just for the first shot. After that it's mil-dots all the way. It's great to have a spotter on a mil-dot equipped spotting scope so you can both talk the same language when making that quick second shot.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 12:53:12 (ZULU)
A couple of questions
Which sight do you guys like the Comp M or the ReflexII
I have used the Reflex I and like it, no batteries - quick etc.
But I don't like the polarized effect.
I haven't used the Comp M yet. bad points that I see- batteries
and you have to make sure it is on, but I like the clear view.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Kevin, the screw in Tenebrex ARD good to go?
Sent my scope off for Gen II and sun shade conversion.
I had the Butler Creek ARD not happy at all with it.
Leary of going with the Tenebrex ARD.
Thanks
AF <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
- Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 12:58:55 (ZULU)
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 13:23:48 (ZULU)
GOOD TO GO!!! I had the objective bell replaced with a threaded one so I could install the new ARD. It works great and is far better than the small/short one that I tried at first.
Ref: Comp ML
GOOD TO GO!!! I have one on my flat-top Armalite .223 with GG&G flip up iron sights. I like it. It's fast and adjustable to any light condition. I have no problem hitting small targets (clay targets) out at 150 yards. Battery life is supposed to be quite long. I'm careful to turn it off whenever I shut the caps. I got the quick mount with the torque limiting thumb screw. It returns to zero every time. I'm not sure I'd like it so much if I had a front sight post in the way. With the flip-ups the field of view is uncluttered.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 13:54:39 (ZULU)
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/886tntlt.asp
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 15:22:29 (ZULU)
Thanx in adv. y'all.
AB
Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Ar., U.S of (Smile when you say it) A. - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 15:50:23 (ZULU)
M1 vs. M3? I have both, but am more familiar with the click adjustable M1. I like the ability to precisely dial in...probably just because I'm more comfortable with it.
The M3 on my M25 works well...I'm not comfortable with it yet. that's jsut a matter of trigger time and usage.
Kevin Maries used an M3 on his M24 sniper system to win the big match this past weekend. We shot to 600 yards and it didn't seem to bother him or effect accuracy in the least!
Bottom line? Get what you want and master it. It comes down to the man and not the equipment, again, as Kevin proved.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 16:02:48 (ZULU)
Rod....any updates on the WV shoot ???
Anyone going to the Hickory NC ghog and egg shoot ???
To all....anyone had better luck with N140 powder in their .308 compared to Varget ?? If so, what gr. bullet and how much powder ??
Another question?? Anyone use the Eagle rifle butt accessory bag ?? and , do they make or is their bag adaptable for left-handers use ??
Thanks,
JRMoore
JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., USofA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 17:05:03 (ZULU)
After a talk here with raviv, my interest has also been aroused: while we know about rounds fired per barrel and the need to replace them, we find no info about bolt or action longevity expectations. If any of you can direct me to relevant recommendations it would be appreciated. Thanks, Yirmi
Yirmi Zanton <mans1@internet-zahav.net>
Rehovot, Israel - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 18:04:22 (ZULU)
http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/ledeen021202.shtml
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 18:37:47 (ZULU)
Bolt life; on most bolt guns is the life of the rifle and action as a rule. Semi Autos depends entirely on the design. More extractor ejectors and springs are the trouble as a rule. When barrels are replaced the head space will be set and that will take care of any change in lugs/bolt lock up. The most common defect with bolts is a broken handle caused by a stuck case. Don't hammer the bolt back. Secure a screw driver and pry between the action and the rear of the bolt if at all possible. If it's a fired case it is best removed with a rod down the bore and tappin it out that way. But you would be surprised how a case that requires a sledge hammer to hammer the bolt out will slip right out with a prying screw driver between the action and bolt handle. close to the bolt.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 19:08:47 (ZULU)
Check here for TV viewing dates and times.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/x/f/frame.htm?
On the Raton shoot, my daughter (the rodent) wants me to tell everyone
about the great Italian cafe in downtown Raton. Damn if I can remember the name :o
Great food and huge portions!!!
And ice cold adult beverages!!!
Hmmm... perhaps a gathering place post match time?
Looking foreward to matching faces to names.
I think therefore I yam.
4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
Siloam Springs, Ar, USofA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 19:31:31 (ZULU)
Pete Lincoln, I got the reply from Remington regarding my bolt's suitability for accaepting a locking safety and they responded by recommending I send the rifle to Edgar Brothers (UK distributor) to be converted to the new ISS system. Any thoughts or comments fellas; and Pete ;-).
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 19:59:58 (ZULU)
A few years ago while on a government funded vacation to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia I had an interesting encounter with a critter. I was walking to the shower tent in flip flops, trunks and a t-shirt when I heard something in the sand and gravel behind me. I looked but didn't see anything. I pressed on to my objective and heard the sound again. As I spun around I noticed a Camel Spider tracking towards me at the speed of heat. The chase was on! One middle age balding guy in flipflops vs. Camel Spider. I ran like hell and just made the shower tent. I could hear the little bastard jumping against the door in an attempt at arthropod tactical entry. I made my way to the back of the tent and told all the others about our new friend. The next guy out the door didn't believe me and got a nasty bite. The worst was all the other guy's in my unit seeing the "SARGE" chased down like a dog. I didn't live it down until I PCS'ed.
FESTUS
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
way up north, where the air is cold , and moose are scared - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 20:30:36 (ZULU)
The last thing remington want you to do is fit the old style, bolt locking when on safe, safety catch. They got rid of this pattern because it means you have to put the rifle on Fire "F" to be able to unload it, i can imagine that some ass hole who's gun handling wasn't what it should have been managed to shoot some one whilst unloading his rifle, and blamed it on the rifle and ultimately remington,
I have fitted an old type safety to my mountain rifle because i noticed tnat when crawling through the thick stuff or through heather and bracken, the damn bolt tended to get levered open and i lost a round, this only happened since i fitted the SSG style bolt knob, it hasn't happened with the 308, despite the fact that it too has the SSG knob, and i firmly believe that it happened because of the thinner stock arcitecture on the mountain rifle exposing much more of the bolt handle, I will fit one to the 308 also when i get a chance, because i don't want the bolt coming open, i want it locked in place, and when i come to unload it, then i point it in a safe direction whilst doing the unload, so nothing can go wrong, now instead of coming out with a useless crock of crap locking device for the firing pin, they would havbe been far better of redesigning the safety into a 3 position safety, which locks the bolt when on safe, has an intermediate, safe possition where you can open the bolt, and another possition for fire.
and then they could have put a $200 voucher to use in the purchase of a decent gunsafe, in with each rifle they sell, this would have been a far far better step towards gun safety then any of the things they have done with the 700 since stupid people got stupid lawyers to trump up stupid allegations and stupid lawmen/officials took notice.
Did they give you an answer to your question about wether the old style safety is compatable with your bolt by the way?
Stick with the Remington trigger, check your bult for the machined slot when you get it back, if it isn't already done, send me the bolt and Ill machine it for you, let me tune your trigger and you can have (for a small fee) one of these old style safeties that Fred got me, then the money you saved on the Jewel, you can spend on ammo and keeping me in Guiness next time we get together.
shit that was a long winded answer! forget Edgar Brothers. your rifles has been away long enough, but if you do happen to speak to them, as them what the price is of a synthetic replacement stock for my Brunner 22, the wooden handle is a little the worse for wear..
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 20:56:03 (ZULU)
Will Porter <wacop@hotmail.com>
Charleston, SC, US - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 21:04:07 (ZULU)
I beleive the 98 mauser lock time is one of the drawbacks when compared to modern rifles.
Varget.start 10% down and work up,using common sense you cant go wrong.
Where the hell is LITO??
Had a good night culling roo's sunday night,20 something headshots dozen or so rabbits,41 shots fired.Got to hurrying for a while and blew some shots.
out
G.W
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 21:24:10 (ZULU)
http://www.povn.com/~4n6/
Especially if you want to know what your
projectiles are doing when they leave the
barrel.
The USMC Carlos Hathcock Match is set for
23 June 2002 at The Cherry Ridge Range
In New Joisey
Contact Percy Bennett
at Phone 1-973-661-3559
for particulars.
Steve from Joisey
I'm tryin to get the day off this year !!!!
Steven Dzupin <DZUPPI@AOL.COM>
New Joisey, - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 22:17:38 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 22:57:37 (ZULU)
http://insects.tamu.edu/images/insects/fieldguide/cimg376.html
WARNING: THIS IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT SHOOTING RELATED!
I am ROYALLY PISSED at those idiotic assanine blind ass judges during the figure figure skating last night. The most excellent looking young Canadian lady and her beau hands down beat the living poopoo out of the Ruskie couple and they gave it to the Ruskies. There is no fair sujective judging in the Olympics at all. As long as the commies are judging, no westerner will ever win the gold. I hope they spend their under the table money here though! If I was the Ruskie guy that won the gold, I would have given it to the Canadians or would not have been able to look at myself in the mirror.
[UPDATE] Just heard that they are launching a full fledged investigation into this matter. Hope they bust some major ass!
I was truly impressed by the biathletes! Heck, I can't even walk up the 1000 yard line without getting out of breath and breaking a sweat. Those are some fine looking riffles they tote.
JR, I planning on being at the Egg Shoot if the crick don't rise that weekend. Have to call and get the poop on how it works.
6 more hours before the latest terrorist attack threat is over. The crying wolf syndrome is getting old as the hills. As if they don't think everyone's pucker hole is tight enough anyway.
Ranted enough, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 23:01:53 (ZULU)
To agree with the consortium, get the scope that meets your needs. Your military sniper-type rifles will typically have 1Moa adjustments because threading the needle with a 173gr SMK is not a requirement, you put steel center mass, good to go. For the LE shooters, if you talk to Undude or the other handful of LE snipers out there, your surgical shooting in hostage situations require extreme precision.
To answer the question posed earlier of having a 1/4 MOA rifle with a 1 Moa scope, what would you gather have at 1000 yds, a 3" or 12" grouping? For those who like to reach out and touch someone, I'm sure the former would be desirable.
As far as the comment, "Now I know that Leupold developed the "M3" at the request of the military which obviously has a lot of people without the capability to "think" or at least to do so quickly!" As a sniper in the bush, you do have to think quickly. You have to engage multiple targets at different ranges, while at the same time on the radio calling in intel, while at the same time small arms, arty, whatever is rainng down on you, while at the same time you are laying in the bug infested swamp in a stinky burlap siut homping around your M40A1, it's not that we don't think quickly, as a Military sniper on a stalk, you have a lot more on your mind than a paper-puncher or LE bubba has, not to say that the afore mentioned shooters have it easy either.
Many shooters on this site, my self included have played the "how many turns did I do?" game in a 1/4 Moa scope when changing yarage, shit, every now and then I forget to change my dope from 300-500 on the USMC KD range, it happens. I/4 Moa scopes aren't the best application for your Mil buubas that engage multiple targets at different ranges. For LE, that works great because they usually shoot at targets in the same general area, no 200 yd target, then out to 800 yds, then back to 300yds, you can see what I'm getting at.
Ok, rant mode off
But, good news for me, Dr John Williams from USO told me my scope will be done sooon! hooh-frickin-ra!
Semper Fi Brothers
Kush out
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Pensacola, Florabamma, US of A - Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 23:28:57 (ZULU)
I am looking into buying some new brass. The price of Winchester .308 is $25.00 per 100 on avg. I have found Lapua for $35.00. For the extra dime , would it be wise to buy the Lapua for better uniformity?
Thanks for your time.
Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 00:39:43 (ZULU)
John and I spent a good part of this past weekend planning the match. I will be sending out a big email within the next few days. It will go directly to your email address.
Rod
rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 00:54:14 (ZULU)
Took Pablito's e-mail info and called Winchester for historical data on a Model 70 I have. Just wanting to know the year and such. Gave the woman the serial number and she says it's a pre-64. i want to see what the difference is and any help is appreciated.
'lito said it was old but didn't know THAT old.
Adam
SSG Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 00:54:39 (ZULU)
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 01:02:44 (ZULU)
Try Donnie at Sable Co. The 3.5-10X40 LR M3 is part # 51850 and is $712 plus actual shipping.
http://www.sableco.net/id8.htm
Email him for info.
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 01:13:11 (ZULU)
A couple of weeks ago, Natchez Shooters Supply had the M3 LR Duplex scopes on sale for $571. Check them.
To all:
I have a few questions about Sniper Country.
1. Who is Dave Reed?
2. Where is Dave Reed now?
3. How did the Sniper Country council become the Sniper Country Council?
Just Curious.
What happened to all you regulars?????
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 01:29:40 (ZULU)
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 01:42:01 (ZULU)
Black tip AP ammo. Is there anyplace that lists reloading data and ballistics charts. I will be reloading some and would like to save a lot of time with the correct info, all help appreciated.....
featherman <mikeit2me@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 01:42:34 (ZULU)
You asked about Pre-post 64 winchester diagrams.
http://www.urban-armory.com/diagrams/win70b.htm
The above is post 64.
http://www.usracmfg.com/Manuals/Model70_Manual.pdf
THAT one is gonna take some time to load but I bet it has the information in it you want including nice photos of the bolt etc in BOTH pre and post.
Enjoy! Hope this helps you.
Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 01:53:47 (ZULU)
I have a reflexII on my Benelli. I was trying to sight it in for slugs at 50 yards shooting at a IPIC target(light brown cardboard) The sun came out and the dot completly washed out. I could not see it. The dot is a light orange color. Looking at targets at 100yds on cloudy day dot is not as sharp as Battery red dot.On my ARs I have a aimpoint and bushnell Holosight. The holosight is easier to pick up the dot and its price is droping each month. Charlie
Charlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
Ann Arbor, Mi, Usa - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 02:58:57 (ZULU)
The pre 64 is a controlled feed, this means you have to load the round into the magazine in order to get it to chamber. The extractor will block at the rear without sliding over on most caliber's probably all. There is a "slit" in the bolt to allow for the ejector to slide in it and eject the extracted round. The post 64 has a spring plunger arrangement and it push feed. (you can chamber a round without pushing it into the magazine.
The safety flap is a bit smaller and much more precise feeling.
The easiest feature to recognize is that thing that looks like a barrel band about 6" forward of the action. This is where the rear sight is. The originals usually had metal butt plates. The wood is usually better quality and normally darker but that's just something you will notice after you learn the other features.
My memory could have failed me on some of this. The pre 64 is a work of art! They don't shoot or function much better than the later post 64's but they bring me to reverence at the quality of manufacture.
I once walked into a ACE hardware store in a Kansas town that was selling out! There was a wall full of Winchester pre 64's in all kinds of caliber' from ..ah you don't want to know...the price was take any or all $150.00 each. "close out!" Me/... broke! The year was 1967.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 03:18:02 (ZULU)
Hey Gavin...
I are here, just digging myself out of a mess (of my own making). I have a tendency to toss paperwork in a box if I don't want to deal with it right away when it comes in, and some of has come back and bit me in the ass... gonna cost a few grand to clean this one up :((( Major bummer !!
-
Donney... I will send you a picture of a 3.5" computer disk shot at 405 yards so you can see the ability of the M3 scopes to hit what you see.
-
Joisey Steve... get your fuzzy buns down to the Carlos match!!
-
Marco... 308/155 is good for around 2900 fps... 3000 fps if you have a long tube. Check your trap spacing. Even an '06 won't give you 3150 with 155's.
-
Bill Byford... try the Lapua, you will like it!
-
Fox... a 98 Mauser will make a fine rifle... the lock time is near the M70, M700, and others... don't get anal about this, you're not making a benchrest rifle... and the 98 will make up one of the smoothest rifles you can know... I have several, and consider them very fine.
-
Aaron... call Hodgdon, and they will send you a freebee in the mail. You can load Varget the same weights as IMR-4064... just start 2 gr low and work up, looking for the usual suspects.
-
Will Porter... .308 and 7.62x51 are the same (to the average guy)... there are minute differences in the chambering, that you don't have to worry about... shoot either, in any rifle.
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 03:29:56 (ZULU)
Check http://www.championshooters.com/shop-cgi/webc.cgi/index-ssl.html
for Lapua at $32 per box.
Blaine Fields <blf@techtrials.com>
- Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 03:48:08 (ZULU)
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 03:51:21 (ZULU)
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2002/feb/12/021202837.html
Hanoi Jane's bed buddy allegedly had some really interesting things to say according to the Las Vegas Sun.
Wish he had said this on Sept 12... maybe Atlanta woulda thrown him and CNN into the sea. Here are some gems allegedly uttered by this drek spouting 'American':
"I think they were brave at the very least," Turner said of the 19 airliner hijackers
"The reason that the World Trade Center got hit is because there are a lot of people living in abject poverty out there who don't have any hope for a better life,"
"A few more votes in Florida, and we could have had the best environmental president we ever had," he said. "Now we've got an oil man. He (President Bush) is like another Julius Caesar."
And then the proof that he really believes in the *ist sounding swill that he preaches...he tops it off with:
'Asked if he would allow public access to his vast landholdings in Montana, he replied: "Can I live in your home with you? We believe in private property in this country." '
What a great man!
If I wasnt worried about being arrested by over-enthused sky marshals I'd get up and be sick right now.
Charles of memorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 04:00:20 (ZULU)
M1 vs M3, have stated my views bunches of times so will let this one go. Since I worked with the M3 and M3A starting in 85 you can guess my line of thought. Not that the military are mouth breathers, but we do have a stress problem that just begs for screw ups. Three steel ball bearing rule.
Well easy night, will shut up and go to bed.
Hold hard guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 04:05:43 (ZULU)
Dunno about the 98 mauser but I got a 96 swede wich is a great bush rifle,no target rifle for sure but Ive never had any complaints from game taken with it.I like how tough and well made these old beasts are.
out
G.W
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 05:28:42 (ZULU)
On Mauser 98's. There are no flies on the Mauser. It's controlled round feed has been copied "ad nauseum". Accused of "slow lock time" I like to ask just what slow is? It's plenty good, IMHO.
Go ahead and build on it...you won't be sorry. The M98 has a flat bottom and beds well...glass it and it's even better
All my serious hunting rifles are build on '98's or rifles patterned after them(pre-'64 M70, etc).
It's been said that the Germans built the best hunting rifle, the British the best Battle Rifle, and the Americans the best Target Rifle. It certainly held true in WWI and WWII.
Having said that all my tactical bolt guns are Rem M700's. Just to stay consistent and have the ability to single round feed without loading into the magazine box.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 05:57:36 (ZULU)
Please disregard my last post on polygonal barrel, that isn't what I meant to send, fouled up on the edit button. Jeez.. Ken, you can delete that one..
What I meant to send was:
Does anyone here know of a production or semi-custom built 'sniper' type rifle that uses polygonal rifled barrels? I can't think of one off hand. Is there a reason for this? Cost is my first guess.
I do know a guy who uses a polygonal barrel in a 300 whisper. He wanted to rebarrel it with a cut barrel, as it seems the 1/8"twist was not stabilizing the 220gr bullets but was stabilizing the 165-180's. 1/8 is fairly standard for 30 caliber barrels shooting sub and transonic ammunition, in fact it's usually the extreme. He wanted a 1/6" twist, which I didn't believe sounded like a good option. He said he was expirementing, so we came up with a compromise.
Anyway, I know I've sent 1/8" twist barrels out that did handle the 220's well. 7.75" is the fastest twist I've made for 30's. I wondered if he was getting different results because of the type of rifling. I never saw the barrel, so I don't know how well it was made.
I have my reasons, but I've never considered a polygonal rifled barrel a good choice for a sniper/tactical rifle barrel. They work ok in 3,4, and 5", I just don't trust they are made well enough for the long pipes. Could be wrong, usually am. I'll probably find out soon enough, ;P. Fit your needs to your application, I say.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 06:24:35 (ZULU)
On the controled feed part, I'm told that an "Old Gunsmith" trick on Mausers is to bevel the bottom of the extractor claw so it will ride up and over the case head and snap into the grove. This is what was done on the design of the 03-A3 so you could single feed it without pushing the round into the mag first. Yup, I know this could (a rare chance) cause it to double feed.
Just started checking out barrels, think I'm gona go with a Shilen. By the time I'm done with this, I doubt I'll have any dust left on my wallet, but that's about all I'll have left in it.
Was sitting at the kitchen table tonight makeing up a list of every thing I'll need for this and adding up the prices. The wife walks over and reads it over my shoulder and says "You gotta stop hanging out at Sniper Country. Those guys are a bad influence on you and WAY too damn expensive". Course she said it with a smile on her face so I guess ya'all are safe for now.
TreverSlyFox <treverslyfox@greendragoninn.zzn.com>
Houston, Missouri, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 06:46:55 (ZULU)
Sorry I still don't have much to contribute in the way of shooting stuff. Finances still not gonna permit much, but improving. I appreciate all of the information available this site though. Thank you guys.
S. Ashcraft
S. Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
Ft. Worth , TX, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 07:01:03 (ZULU)
do any of you use Chyenne Pepper on Wounds ???? Also drinking a glass of water with two tablespoons is to help during a heart attack.
Anyone that can enlighten me as to why?
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 08:18:51 (ZULU)
Rickster...
I know that one got broke, and one got lost, but what happened to the third?
-
I drove in last night after 9 hours on the road, to a umbrella of choppers hovering over my town... maybe 15. The College hostage thing was going on about 1/4 of a mile from my howse :((
They interviewed the hostage kids this morning, and they are such scruffy, inarticulate whimps (but eating up the media attention!!).
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 11:29:02 (ZULU)
Re: Aimpoint:
"I'm not sure I'd like it so much if I had a front sight post in the way. With the flip-ups the field of view is uncluttered."
Properly mounted, sighted, and employed the Comp ML should have the dot sitting right on top of the front sight post and both sighted for 50 yds. Good to go to around 225 yds. Trust me, the front sight disappears if you're shooting w/both eyes open. If the ML goes TU you use the front iron right through the ML and no wasted time flipping up the irons (could cost you your shot or yer life). 2 other advantages of the Aimpoint over the Reflex is if you break the lens on the Aimpoint you can still use the dot by closing the front cover and using as an occluded eye sight and if the battery goes, the ML makes a dandy (big) ghost ring for CQB.
As Martha would say, "It's a good thing."
Don
Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 12:30:18 (ZULU)
Lock time is sometimes mistaken due to the sound the hammer makes in a rifle. A mauser just sounds slow.(think about that one).
Again there is no over travel adjustment on the trigger and that is one of the main reasons the 700 feels more like a target system and seems to go off with less time because you don't know it's on the way! These are very debatable points but those who've really been there will know what I'm saying.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 13:44:24 (ZULU)
1. Dave Reed was the originator of Sniper Country back in 1995. He had a business out in California, I believe, that finally got to the point that he could not keep the site up any longer.
2. Don't know where he is now haven't heard from him in years!
3. Sniper Country Council came about when 5 of the OLD ORIGINAL regulars, Marius, Scott, myself, Hugo and Russ asked Dave to give us the rights to SC and let us run with it. As you can see from this list Marius, Scott and myself are still around with Russ and Hugo going different directions through the years. This was the beginning of the Council. A couple of years ago we decided that the Council needed a new member and asked peteR to join us.
Well folks there is a very quick run down on how the "powers that be" at SC came about!
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 15:19:59 (ZULU)
Where might one get a bolt face compatable with .223 for same???
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 15:23:07 (ZULU)
1. For a LE Sniper the ranges tend to be less than 400 yards and the aiming point small. I like 1/4moa for this
2. For fied work 1moa is better because you can go from 100-1000 yards/meters in one turn. In this case you want energy on target and to keep down the erros of being off a turn on adjustments.
I have a new scope I am testing form US Optics. It has 1/2moa per click and 45 moa per turn. This may be a great alternative to work in both enviormnments.
Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 15:46:54 (ZULU)
When I was a young NCO stationed in the middle of God Awful Nowhere,(Holloman Air Plane Patch). My boss a senior NCO whom I will only refer to as Randy bought a brand new Chevy Z-71 4x4 custom everything. If it wasn't chromed or tinted it wasn't on it. His pride and joy. It even had cat prints on the hood!...WHAT!!!!
Randy politely asked his neighbors in base housing to restrain the beast to no avail. He was informed that the cat was a free spirit and could do as it pleased. Randy was pissed. He went out and bought one of those pump-up pellet guns and sought some sort of payment from the cat itself.
Then he saw it. A large whitish cat baking in the sun on his neighbors sidewalk. Surely this must be the offending critter. In true sniper fashion he pumped that damn gun up about 20 times stuck just the barrel out the door and sent it. The cat exploded!!! Nothing left of it but dust...DUST? Randy had sniped a porcelin cat set in the sun to dry so it could be fired in a kiln later on.
The neighbor lady came over to ask If Randy had seen any kids with BB guns in the area. Randy's reply..."No Mam ain't seen no kids with BBguns!"
We never laughed so hard as when Randy told us about that and the ensuing Security Police investigation of the incident. Then we were sworn to secrecy until such time as He retired.
Happy Retirement Randy!
FESTUS
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, Alaska, - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 17:41:52 (ZULU)
Seeing complexity when the situation is simple is not subtlety. It is confusion. Michael Kelly is in rare form.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1998-2002Feb12.html
Our allies are helping us, and its in our interest to stop whining and avoid "sulky unilateralism."
http://www.nationalreview.com/jos/jos021302.shtml
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 19:03:36 (ZULU)
My .22-250 is built on an old K98 action and I love it. You might want to pick up a copy of "The Mauser Bolt Actions - A Shop Manual" by Jerry Kuhnhausen. Everything you ever wanted to know, and then some, about Mausers. It tells you what to look for when buying a used one. Brownells sells them for $29.95. Drop me a note if you have any questions. I'm not too many miles north of you.
Doc
Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 19:50:51 (ZULU)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1996-2002Feb12.html
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 21:38:36 (ZULU)
Catshooter - Well he traded it away for you know what. :-)
Mike - Let me know how that scope works out since we are having trouble here getting things here lately. :-(
Finger - Will have to get together later this year for an exchange of ideas and a few beers. Think we did that in the late 80s at the old black powder rnage. :-)
Hold Hard guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 00:38:18 (ZULU)
"The Killing Zone"
A most excellent read. A well written non-fiction about a Lt's tours in Nam. Rotten ass ending I am sad to say.
"Good To Go"
Having a hard time putting this one down, half way through. A non-fiction about a SEAL's tours in Nam. Hell of a book!
"DFA Volume V"
Have to say that I am glad that I have finally made it through all 5 volumes plus White Feather. The DFA books were getting tedious trying to put anything in a logical order. Good info but hard to stay with.
Rotten sinuses! I could have never been a sniper with these friggin sinus/alergy problems. No way to sneeze 50 times in a row without making noise.
On the Butner Ranges.....I sent an email to one of the guys on the board that runs the matches and asked if there was some way to have a couple of free shooting at the ranges. I mentioned that it would be nice if we could maybe start at the 100 berm and move to each berm out to a thousand and shoot for 45 minutes or so at each berm to do some quality rifle doping. It would be really fine to have confirmed dope for all your rifles at each 100 yard mark! He said that he would bring it up at the board meeting next month. Somebody even mentioned having a 22lr competition at a thousand, what a hoot that would be!
Rick and Finger, you guys get together and invite us Tarheels down for some quality training time this year. I'll buy the beer, after we shoot!
Time to get to the shop, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 00:45:11 (ZULU)
The Mausers have a week point where the thumb groove for stripper clips is. I have read that some crack there.
Does anybody know anything about the new Accuracy International rifles? There is a new model that is competitively priced.
Check it out on gunsamerica.com ad #976203773
Let me know what you think.
Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland , OR, TBA-3+years and waiting - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 01:05:40 (ZULU)
Who made the polygonal rifled barrels?
Bolt,
You get my e-mail?
Semper Fi
Paul
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 01:57:26 (ZULU)
We're going to do it.
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$AW2W3PAAACGGHQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/02/10/wterr10.xml
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 02:41:31 (ZULU)
Now for another. Where is the best place to buy 175 gr SMK's.
N-140 powder: I have exellent results with 42.5 gr of 140 over a 168 gr bthp. SD's in the single digits. Federal cases and Win primers round out the component list.
Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 02:42:21 (ZULU)
Do you have the USOptics scope yet? (the one with the new 1/2 moa knobs)
If so I would assume you haven't had a lot of time to test it yet, but I will ask anyways "how do you like the adjustments, how are they holding up"?
Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Thursday, ">ynuary 14, 2002, at 02:51:39 (ZULU)
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 03:15:13 (ZULU)
Off to bed, tomorrow is test day for the guys first range test. :-)
Hold Hard
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 04:08:35 (ZULU)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,649917,00.html
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 04:55:39 (ZULU)
I'll second what 'Lito said about Mausers...super tough. No problems there. In particular my custom .35 Whelan Ackley Improved is a 1952 FN Commercial action. Love it.
Current project is a heat treated small ring Mexican Mauser. The smaller ring and medium action length make these perfect for the .284, 6.5 X .284, 7 x 57, 6.5 x 55, etc. These are petite enough to look beautiful with custom work. One of mine is becoming a custom mannlicher style, as we speak. Gonna be a beaut! We have a Kreiger .284 barrel, Jerome Glimm bolt handle(3 panel), Blackburn bottom metal, Talley Rings and mounts. Scope is going to be a 1.5 X 5 Luppie Vari-X III. This is a stalking rifle for the wilds of western Oregon.
Select parts are going to be color cased and some mild engraving done...to include a blacktail buck on the floor plate.
LOOKING FOR...Specs for the USMC M70 30/06 Sniper Rifle with 8X Unertl and or the Van Orden Sniper. Anyone out there have particulars as to length/taper of the barrel, etc. I'm thinking of building a period "correct" sniper just for giggles.
All for now.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 05:54:25 (ZULU)
On cayenne pepper- I have been told it promotes circulation. I haven't heard of the heart attack remedy, but have read of high altitude climbers using it to ward off frost bite in their extremities, and it seems to actually work for them.
Mark J <markj12pct@aol.com>
- Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 06:49:28 (ZULU)
on Pepper again.
A friend told me that he had read something about Cayenne pepper stopping bleeding. and when he cut himself with a huntingarrow tip, real bad into a fingertip down to the bone, he had trouble stopping the bleeding.
So he thought this would be the time to find out, and he poured some powdered pepper over the gushing wound, and within a minute the bleeding stopped. by that time he had bled all over the floors looking for towels etc. and was starting to feel real dizzy, so he took two tablespoons of pepper in a glass of water.
His wife returned about 30 minutes later and they went to the hospital to get it stitched.
The doctor at hand could not belive the wound was just over an hour old. it had build a crust of pepper and blood that looked days old.
I guess it clumps up the bllod, but it must be more than just that.
Also drinking it turns up your system to produce more adrenalin and endrophine thats why it is to help during a heart attack.
Thats all i know and why i would like to find out more about it.
thanks
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 08:28:42 (ZULU)
I think I'm going with the Comp M.
Aaron Ford <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
- Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 12:44:17 (ZULU)
Still a damn tough stick albeit not quite as much so as the AW or AWP.
FN has a new line out. Talked with 'em yesterday. The rifles are supposed to come your choice of five different ways, with 4.5 lb. triggers (that they stand behind) and with two test targets. They also supply one target shot by a man and the other from a mechanical rest of some type out to 250 yards. Mc stocks, etc. Great support staff so they say. The guy told me if they can't turn your rifle around in a day or two, they'll send you one to use 'til they can. I asked who the hell woke up at FN and the guy just laughed. He said they have a new staff and the new HMFIC is supposed to be ex-French SF. I don't know any of those fellas. I guess well see.
If they're all they say they are - Look out Remington.
Watch your sixes.
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 13:50:16 (ZULU)
The one thing about field medicine is that there is no perfect answer. I have been trying to find a credible source for information about hot pepper and it's impact on the circulatory system...nothing solid at this point..
Anecdotal statements I have heard suggest it promotes circulation as a vasodilator (makes blood vessels get bigger)....this would run counter to your friend's experience, as a vasodilator applied topically to a wound would promote bleeding, not stop it...
If it stimulates the release of epinephrine.... well, let just say, that is ABSOLUTELY the worst thing you can possibly do to someone having a significant heart attack. EPI increases the rate in which the heart consumes Oxygen... in a heart attack, the heart muscle is starved for oxygen and "dying"... speeding up this tissue death is very bad....
We use EPI in cardiac arrest, as part of a very potent cocktail... these are dire straights and desperate measures... along the same line as defibrillation and intubation... think of it as calling in arty "danger close"...not something you want to take lightly...
On bleeding (practical statement, not necessarily PC in nature and you may never find this in a text book). You can stop ALL bleeding from sources below the elbow with direct pressure....heck, I have stopped bleeding with direct pressure on people missing whole arms... Your friend was probably getting dizzy because he doesn't like seeing his own blood...
Regards
Jim
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 14:57:25 (ZULU)
The results are......
Alcohol/Windex You still have to handle each case. Faster than just a rag but still time consuming.
Soapy water Swish them around a few times, rinse, strain in collander, put on towel to dry. Dry them faster with wife's blow dryer.
If I was only cleaning a small quanity I would use the Windex but, for large quantities the soapy water is the way to go.
Out,
TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 19:09:02 (ZULU)
About pepper and wounds...
Do you really want to put something possibly non-sterile on or in a wound site? Lets go back to pressure bandages and basic skills taught in combat-lifesaver!
FESTUS-out
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 19:11:06 (ZULU)
Appears you are right. It looks like the real deal, but what I don't understand is all the open and free talk about it. Is there a method to their madness, like to gain support or see who will or who won't? What do you think man?
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 20:07:19 (ZULU)
409.983.8643 OR 409.726.4037 pgr.
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 21:16:10 (ZULU)
This report says that we had bin Laden cornered and were too timid to go in and get him. Its worth reading.
"...The USA is the greatest military power in the history of the planet... yet everything was paralysed because it would not allow its fighting men to fight. While the generals agonised about bodybags, bin Laden was escaping...If the US wants to get Saddam, it will have to go in and get him, with...a full-scale invasion. But are the generals who hung back at Tora Bora the...right men to invade Iraq? "
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-02-16&id=1585
If this report is accurate, this writer sounds like he may have a point worth considering.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 22:53:33 (ZULU)
Any riffle any caliber,
Ground hawg paper target,
3 shots in 2 minutes with no sighters at 100, 300 and 500 yards,
12 shooters per round,
As many as 250 shooters.
The guy is sending me the brochure and map. Don't have a scanner so guess it won't do you any good.
Contact - Bull's Eye Sporting Goods, in Vale NC @ 704-462-1948
Still haven't figured out why it's called an Egg shoot when it's a ground hawg target.
Your competition connection, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 00:28:29 (ZULU)
MedicJim and Bruce had some questions about the The Mexican Mauser and the Mannlicher Project I am currently persuing. So penned this for all to see...
Mexico adopted the 7 X 57mm in 1895(forward thinking devil's). The first rifles were the M1895 and M1902. In 1912 a new model was adopted as the, you guessed it, M1912. It is this rifle that we are discussing.
The M1912 is a true "small ring" action. Meaning the front reciever ring is slightly smaller(more trim) than the standard M98 Mauser. Additionally, it was chambered in a medium length cartridge, the 7 X 75mm. Making it perfect for "medium" lenth rounds like the 6.5 X 55, 6.5 X 57mm, 7 x 57mm, .284 Winchester(loaded out), 6.5 X .284(loaded out). Additionally, it may be a perfect platform for the .300 WSM and the like by allowing you to seat your bullets out a bit, enhancing performance a bit. As is the case in the .284 and 6.5 X .284.
The "small ring" Mexican is also 4 ounces lighter than most of it's counterparts. Making it perfect for light rifle applications.
One possible complaint is that the actions tended to be "soft" and required heat treating to handle modern pressures well. True or false most of the Mex Mausers I've seen used have ALL been surface ground, to remove the crest, and heat treated. Mine are...
This just assures that the action is fully capable of whatever you wish to shoot in it...within reason.
The project I'm working on is with Steve Nelson, Secretary, The American Custom Guncrafters Guild. Steve's work is perfection itself. So good that some of the big British makers allow him to do warranty work on their products. Steve's trademark is the "Pirschbuchsen" or "stalking rifle" in plain english. His personal 7 x 57 has been showcased several times in Rifle and other magazines.
The rifle itself will feature the customized Mexican Mauser Action, Blackburn Custom Bottom Metal, Talley Mounts and Rings, Jerome Glimm checkered bolt handle, Jim Wisner M70 style safety, and Blackburn trigger. The barrel is a Kreiger .284, 20" in length, and will be chambered in .284 Winchester. Scope will be a Leupold 1.5 X 5x Vari-X III. Additionally, the rifle will mount an NECG front sight and band unitized by Steve. The rear sight will be pre-sighted, removable, and stored in the butt compartment awaiting usage.
The stock is high grade English Walnut and will sport a steel checkered butt plate w/trap, and a trap door grip cap.
The Rings/mounts, safety, and the grip cap, and butt plate will be color case hardened.
Jerome Glimm will be putting a engraving of a blacktail buck on the floor plate and perhaps some light scroll on the rifle, as well. All in all a spectactular rifle. A true example of the "stalking" rifle.
Expect the rifle to be ready to go this next hunting season with the engraving coming after that. Will post pictures when done.
If your interested in contacting Steve the contact data is:
Nelson's Custom Guns
Steve Nelson, Proprietor
(541)745-5232
www.nelsons-custom@home.com
Why have a rifle like this? Well, for me it typifies the love of the hunt, nature, and the outdoors. An added bonus is it gives you something to be proud of while things are slow, or as I put it last season "spectacularly unsuccessful".
Hope this gives you some food for thought...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 01:15:54 (ZULU)
I never owned a gun like you described, but have always enjoyed seeing art & craftsmanship performed on the old actions, bringing back to life persay . Please post pictures upon completion of the project.
CDC,
Refer to my post of 12-20-01@1942,ZULU. I told you I've been up the river before, and it always seems the same story. Damn it, I pray not.
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 03:08:06 (ZULU)
"The CIA Hellfire missile attack in eastern Afghanistan that killed three men believed to be senior al Qaida leaders came as Afghan forces planned to raid a nearby village where Osama bin Laden was thought to be holed up," United Press International reports. Since the missile attack, U.S. special forces have occupied the village, Kote Tangai.
In The Spectator http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-02-16&id=1585 of London, Bruce Anderson argues that bin Laden escaped because of the U.S. military's fear of casualties:
*** QUOTE ***
By the end of the battle, the SAS [British special forces] was certain that it knew where bin Laden was: in a mountain valley, where he could have been trapped. . . . It did not get the chance. The SAS was under overall US command, and the American generals faltered. Understandably enough, they wanted Delta Force to be in at the death; they would have preferred it if bin Laden had fallen to an American bullet. So would Delta Force; every bit as much as the SAS, its men were raring to go. It was their commanders who held them back. . . .
It seems unlikely that bin Laden could have been bagged without casualties. The men on the ground did not quail at that prospect; the generals on the radio did. They wanted Delta Force to kill bin Laden; they were not prepared to allow their men to be killed in the process. They would not even allow USAF ground-attack aircraft to operate below 12,000 feet. As far as the SAS could tell, their hope was that the ragged-trousered militants of the Northern Alliance would do most of the dangerous stuff--and take most of the casualties--while Delta Force came in for the coup de grâce. Nor were the American generals willing to allow the SAS to win the glory which they were denying to American troops.
*** END QUOTE ***
"It is now time for Donald Rumsfeld to retire a number of his Vietnamised, risk-averse generals, and to replace them with warriors," Anderson writes. "After all, he will shortly have a war to fight."
Charley <cmeng@yahoo.com>
KY, - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 05:03:39 (ZULU)
*** QUOTE ***
The authorities have barred shops from selling red roses, teddy bears and greeting cards in celebration of Valentine’s Day today. The Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Evil has given shops all over the Kingdom three days to clear red-colored gifts normally used to mark the day in which lovers celebrate their love for one another. . . .
A joint committee has been formed by the Riyadh governorate, the commission, police and the public prosecutor to conduct round-the-clock patrols to impose the ban, Othman said. Othman also warned drivers against decorating their cars with any red or other Valentine-associated items. In schools, teachers have been warning students during the past two weeks against wearing red clothes or displaying any item related to the occasion.
Charley <cmeng@yahoo.com>
KY, - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 05:07:36 (ZULU)
I'm still for the war just want the next phase to be swift and have the leadership on the ground in country not 4,000 miles away trying to call the shots without being there. It's borderline cowardice. Of course I still believe wars fought with swords is the most honorable way to settle disputes. But those days are gone.
Anyone shooting on Military Posts having trouble getting the shooting season under way. Being locked out sucks.
Dirty Steve, Out
Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 05:14:16 (ZULU)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=94227
Sinister Dave <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, February 15, 2002, at 05:28:19 (ZULU)
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 09:18:37 (ZULU)
Hi Fellas,
Recently joined a small-bore rifle club and used a sling as support for the first time and was suprised at just how steady the rifle was.
To me a sling has always been a method carrying the rifle and nothing else.
My question is this, does the use of a sling alter the point of impact of a rilfe that has been zeroed off a bi-pod/bag?
With my rifle zeroed off a bi-pod my POI remains the same regrdless of the position I use (though the groups are bigger:-( ). I have always thought, and been told, that using a sling would alter POI, but I read recently that as long as the barrel is free floating and the stock rigid it will have no effect.
I would like to use the sling for standing, kneeling and sitting, but for the type of shooting I do I would rather have a consistant POI with larger groups/error, than a shifting POI and smaller groups/error.
As always any comments or thoughts will be gratefully received.
Jon
P.S. If the sling gets the thumbs up, which would you recommend?
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, February 15, 2002, at 13:03:44 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 14:02:12 (ZULU)
Mike <mleb3338@aol.com>
Eustis, FL, 32726 - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 14:58:45 (ZULU)
I have been shooting High Power Rifle on Ft Knox for about 10yrs now. Ft Knox Range Control is still supporting our shooting activities on Post. Our Range Briefing is scheduled for Feb 23, and at that time we should learn about any new procedures to bring weapons onto the installation. They even approved our request for use of a pistol range. We plan to shoot NRA Bullseye Pistol, and will likely host a Leg match as well.
Our first High Power Match is scheduled for March 16-17. The 16th is the John C. Garand Match, and the 17th is the Regional Match Course, 80 shots for record fired from the 200, 300, and 600yd lines. We have some Long Range Matches from the 1,000yd line scheduled as well. All NRA High Power Rules apply. Any questions on dates, or directions email me.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 15:08:15 (ZULU)
Using a loop sling CAN change your point of impact compared to a benchrest or bipod position. Depending on a few things.
1. If you really crank down on the sling you will cause more deviation than if you only use enough tension to stabilize the rifle. This is especially true with a rifle like the M-16 that attaches the sling to the barrel not a free floated stock. This is due to the torque on the rifle/barrel.
2. When you use a loop sling the rifle recoils differently. Instead of recoiling freely, the rifle tends to recoil into the shoulder more directly and jumps less... which is a good thing!
Just remember to only use enough tension to stabilise the rifle, mark your sling so you can get the same tension. You will or should anyway, have differnt settings for different positions. Your sling should be shorter in a sitting position than in the prone.
Try just using a hasty sling, vice a strapped in loop sling when shooting standing.
Out here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Friday, February 15, 2002, at 17:04:57 (ZULU)
I'm playing on my computer (obviously :) ) in an Excel spreadsheet that I use and I developed a quandry. I'm doing distance determination and elevation requirements.
I'm looking for one of those "Rocket Scientist" guru types to help me out.
If distances are determined via GPS fixes, the resultant distances are "base" of the triangle distances and not "hypotenuse". (I hope this is correct). Same as using a topographic map for distance determination, it's all "base" distance.
Laser and Mil Relation distances are, for practical purposes, "hypotenuse" distances and need angle correction for "base" distance.
Is there someone here that can perhaps confirm that the GPS distances are "base" distances...
I need to know this as the wind calculation is based on the true and actual flight distance while the "click/elevation adjustment(s)" are based on the gravity or "Base" distance(s).
(I hate it when things are going well and all of a sudden I get wrapped around the wheel.)
BTW
My George Gardener "M40A1 kinda type style" rifle is on a UPS truck headed toward my house.
Thanks!
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, U. S. A. - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 17:49:51 (ZULU)
Yes! Action wise, they are Plug & Play!
... but, you may have to open the barrel channel. The 700SA stocks are made for light or medium barrels, and most all 40-X's have fat heavy barrels.
-
Last week I finely picked up the .22 rimfire Rem 40-X I've had on layaway. The gun was filthy (a VERY GOOD sign).
Someone had done a very fine job glass bedding it, but had not filled the front screw hole on the action with clay, so the front screw had little "purchase" in the action. The action was loose in the stock (which needs refinishing). The front action screw would only go in a little over 1 turn, because the hole was filled with glassing compound. :((
I thought up something I will pass on to some of you. I took an old action screw, and cut a "X" on the face of it, with a Dremmel cutoff stone... then I ground away part of each "pie" section, so it looked like the front of a tiny case trimmer. Now, each time I turned the screw into the action, the little blades would scrape off a bit of the glass, until the slots filled up (about 1/8th of a turn). Then I'd have to clean the slots with a toothbrush, and do it again... it took about 20 times, and all the glass is gone. Now the action sets in tight.
I scoped it with a Lupita 6.5x20-40 EFR, that will focus down to about 18 feet. I used Burris Signature "ZEE" rings, with offset shells, so the scope's elevation is down at the bottom ("0"), when it's zero'ed at 50 yds, and it now has 40+ moa of up. When it gets warmer, I will strip the stock, and re-finish it.
This is gonna be fun... I'm thinking of getting a NightVision scope sight for it... maybe a can :)))
The nice thing about the gun, is it has a full sized 40-X action, and full sized Rangemaster stock, so it doesn't feel like a kids gun (and the receiver is stamped "U.S. Government Property" HA! ;))
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
- Friday, February 15, 2002, at 17:52:19 (ZULU)
Let's have some fun today with kid's toys! ( SNIPER PRACTICE )
A buddy of mine recently had a great deal of fun at my expense and showed me a great backyard BBQ activity that is both challenging and good practice.
You need one of those really sexy 1000 fps target air rifles, Tasco 2.5 x 10 varmint scope w/ mil dots (all they are really good for) and a handfull of 9mm casings. Crimp the 9mm casings w/ you're leatherman so it gives the appearance of a fat hour glass.
At 25 yds these casings are representitive of a man size target at a distance of way the hell out there. Since it is a pellet gun wind drift plays hell with the pellet down range. I'm not saying this is a susbtitute for practice but it is a fun thing to do at the next BBQ (loser makes the next trip to the cooler). And the neighbors usually don't get pissed (as long as you use a backstop). My kids are getting pretty good at this and I'm afraid they may start winning more allowance through friendly wager!
FESTUS
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
way up north, where the air is cold , and moose are scared - Friday, February 15, 2002, at 18:13:07 (ZULU)
You guys ever test any of the Savage rifles? If so, do you mind posting any information that you would like to share?
TD Farmer,
You get my e-mail?
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 00:43:04 (ZULU)
Now if someone will answer Dave Kings question so I can pretend to know the answer to that one too!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 01:37:45 (ZULU)
The Groundhog match is called the egg shoot because at the end of the 9 shot groundhog match, you bet all the marbles on one shot at a chicken egg (Ostrich egg would be better) at 500 yards. On average 7-9 competitors hit the egg (out of 250 avg). A good rifle , A good wind doper , and good luck all come into play.
My .02
Bill
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 01:49:26 (ZULU)
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 01:56:33 (ZULU)
"P.S. If the sling gets the thumbs up, which would you recommend?"
Mike's.... http://www.tacticalintervention.com/
-L
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 02:54:20 (ZULU)
http://www.allexperts.com/getExpert.asp?Category=2130
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 02:55:06 (ZULU)
Mike <offroad_z71@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 03:11:57 (ZULU)
And if anyone EVER catches me watching Olympic ice-dancing, you have permission to shoot me.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 03:27:23 (ZULU)
Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 03:41:18 (ZULU)
I don't know why we haven't been allowed back on. Not much of aything on the post. The club has shot there for a loooong time both rifle, pistol and small bore. I was hoping it would be resolved by now but I guess not. Nothing to do but wait. I was curious if any others were having similar problems with military ranges.
Dirty Steve, Out
Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 04:12:58 (ZULU)
Somebody refresh my memory...what's the trigger pull on the M24 SWS?
**Edited to say...nevermind. I found my old M24 TM and it's 2.5#.**
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 04:40:23 (ZULU)
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 06:24:31 (ZULU)
Hey Pablito... I'll buy that 40x from you if/when you get tired of it. 8)
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 07:18:57 (ZULU)
Thanks for all your help guys. Concencus on and off the roster is 'try it and see', with Mike 'Undude's sling getting the vote, so I shall be sorting an order out today.
Cheers
Jon
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 12:20:52 (ZULU)
I guess that GPS distance question was a little confusing but It made perfect sense to me (a lot of my thinking makes perfect sense to me it just get a little screwed up on the way out).
I explanation:
I have a spreadsheet that I use as my ballistics program.
This spreadsheet has several methods for determining distance(s).
One method is to use GPS (UTM mode) to get distances, another is to use Mil Relation.
Once I have the distance I either manually plug the data into the "distance" field to get elevation and wind correction or have it automatically use the GPS or Mil relation derived distance determination.
I was working on a section to automatically calculates "slope" based on GPS elevation at the FFP and the TRP. This is where the "problem" showed up.
Distances determined by GPS (in UTM) are from x,y coordinates on a FLAT EARTH model. There is NO elevation component... hence, all distances are "Base" or gravity distance and NOT Line of Sight (LOS) "slope" distance.
I fixed the problem by determining the angle from the two elevation readings and back calulating the slope distance. This method ADDS distance to the GPS determined distance. The added distance is needed otherwise the windage component will be incorrect because of the increased Time Of Flight (TOF).
This ADDed distance model also seem to be required for distances determined while using a grid map or any "flat land" model.
A quick example: Suppose you're on a tall cliff and the target is 45 degrees down from your position. You're 200 meters up and the target is 200 meter out from the base of the cliff. The GPS/GRID MAP (my GPS in UTM) will give a position as if you were at the BASE of the cliff rather than at the TOP of the cliff. The gravity or base distance is correct so your come-ups will be as 200 meters but the wind will be wrong as the shot (LOS) distance is 260+- meters. Additional problems will arise if the operator believes he needs to "slope" correct the 200 meters (GPS/GRID MAP), he'll end up shooting as if the distance were only 140+- meters.
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 12:42:01 (ZULU)
What you said made perfect sense to me when I read it, but might have gotten screwed up on the way in ;))
If I understood what you asked, then... The slope/slant compensations are to to GET the base distance for a shooting solution where range was gotten from the shooter's position to the target position. So if you are on a cliff shooting down at a target that is 700 yds from you to it (direct laser or mildot)... and the target is 500 below you, then it is 500 yds from the base of your cliff. The true ballistic range will always be the baseline range. When you use the mildot master, or the cosine formulas, you are converting the range (laser, or mildor), to the base line distances, and then you shoot the base line come-ups.
But if you get the distance from you to the target by GPS, or good grid map, you will get 500 yards right away, so no compensation is needed, just dial your come-ups for 500, and dump it.
If you are using both mildot values, and GPS/Grids to get ranges, you will probably need two separate windows to enter values, so the mildot loop takes the altitude difference, and does the conversion to base distances.
Excell is not my strong forte'
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 13:29:05 (ZULU)
Steve - Not sure why your post is stopping the civies at the gate and not letting them in or use their facilities. Even as big as Ft Bragg is they let in the civies.
Mike - My guess is that you have a defective scope. We have 15 of the scopes and none of them exhibit the problems that you noted. Ours were augmented by Premier with a mil dot reticle that stays in proportion throughout the power settings. Nice littel scope I do believe.
Paul - We have never tested the Savage rifle. It was not on our list of candidates and thus not tested. Have heard good things about the rifle but have no experience with that weapon system.
Festus - That is a good reduced range target practice. In the 80s the Aussies used that technique for shooting. If you know the size of a target at a given range then you can compute it's size relative at a shorter range. Example, you now that a 36 inch target at 600 yards is about 6 moa (OK for the perfect in here it is 5.730659). Now at 10 yards one moa is about .1 inch. so a 36 inch target would be .6 inches at 10 yards to represent a 36 inch target at 600 yards. You can do the same with .22 and then use the actual wind effect for the 22 to represent the effect on the 308 at any given range with reduce scaled targets. Fun huh!
WEll enough for now, have fun guys and play nice!
Hold Hard
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 15:08:29 (ZULU)
I don't remember the exact numbers but it was my understanding that civilian GPS devices had a built in error factor (military/government didn't want to give civilians exact numbers so you will be off I thought it was in the range of 25 to 100 yards). And whatever the range error is it could be double that because you don't know which direction the error factor is in.
I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not a good idea to use GPS numbers unless you can guantee the results and that mil-dot, map, laser and math are probably a better way to go.
Just a thought!
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 15:42:30 (ZULU)
I just got back from the range. I took out my new Remington LTR in .223. I'm NOT a happy camper. It won't shoot 75 grain or 62 grain bullets. The only thing it grouped was some 55 grain SXSP stuff I had left over. Man!
I'll admit that it's the first time out and all but I expected to be able to shoot something on the heavy side. It's got a 1:9 twist for cryin' out loud.
Ok guys let's get some input here before I run out and do something stupid like trade the thing and take a bath.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 19:48:54 (ZULU)
George Gardner - Do you do AR-15's?
Out here.
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 20:44:11 (ZULU)
This is a subject that interest me so I revisited an article on this subject in "Precision Shooting" March 1999 issue by Rick Mandelson.
Rick ran his own test to see which would be superior in indurance. As you know, both companies are highly praised for their uniformity.
To make a long story short I will give you a brief summary of Rick's test.
After ten shots the Norma primer pockets were getting loose.
After eighteen shots, one of the Norma cases blew.
The Laupa cases on the other hand did well up to twenty five firings. At that point the primer pockets began to loosen up a bit.
After thirty-five shots the Laupa brass began to develope internal cratering which microscopically increased up to fifty shots... at which point he discontinued testing.
I would have to say that Laupa is prety impressive brass.
Incidentally, I consider my self one of the luckiest men in the world. I have a wife that doesn't give much crap, a new Harley Davidson "Fatboy" and George Gardner built me a rifle that he is excited about how it came out, and he just shiped it to me.
Life is good!
Tom B.
"nice Shot"
Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 21:36:16 (ZULU)
Thanks for the reply. The TM says the rifle is factory set at 2.5, but can be adjusted from 2 to 8 lbs. Personally, I'm going with 3.5 on my Winny. Thanks again.
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 21:41:04 (ZULU)
"...I hope he turns out to be a shooter, or his inheritance will all go to waste. ;))..." Well, if'n he ain't a shooter, wanna adopt a 30 year old son? ;)
Later,
Rich
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 21:53:03 (ZULU)
Speaking of which, a friend (the Rooshan) has a M70 .223 HBV (Stainless) in a McMillan A2 stock for sale... shoots gud, anyone interested, e-mail me.
-
Rich S... you made me laugh.
But you gotta stand on line... that's not the first time I've had that offer... I could run a adoption home for stray kids over 30.
HA!
-
I just got finished watchin' the Womens 10km Biathlon, and I know what I want for my birthday... one of them lickity slick straight pull Anschutz riffles, and one of them 5'10" Scandahoovian women critters to go with it. I already got the skis... ;)))
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 22:16:14 (ZULU)
Thanks for the reply, I thought I had this stuff pretty well figured until that GPS thingy came up. All of a sudden I'm shooting short and went to the ballistics to figure/reconfigure the thing/problem.
Rick
I got the wind/environmental part straight away, that's pretty much a given nowadays. When I first built the thing I understood that wind/envir. always acted for the entire flight of the projectile and the "gravity" portion only effected the come-ups. Sometime I get too deep into the programming part and forget to come up for a reality check. A little like poking under a rock for a rattler while using a 2 foot stick, you'll eventually find a 6 foot rattler!
Byron
As stated already, the differential is turned off now and the GPS distances are pretty accurate. I mostly use the GPS distances for ranges beyond my normal Mil Rel and laser capabilities.
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 22:44:30 (ZULU)
Thanks for the update about their accuracy I wasn't aware they released the previous restriction.
Thanks
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 22:54:47 (ZULU)
Got an AR15 question myself,
today i received from a friend the origenal flash hider thats attached to the Colt Commando style Vietnam era rifles, which i want to attach to my A4.
And so i tried to remove the standerd one that is attached to mine, but thats a lot harder than i thought it would be.
(almost broke my wrists trying it with a wrench)
Anyone got any tips on how to remove this piece of sh#t muzzle-break?
K. Mussack,
a fellow shooter on our range has got the same Rem LTR .223 and he is shooting a little less than 1 inch groups at 109 yards, so i think it is a decent rifle, in the case you bought it new, than it might need some more break in time???
I remember last year when i just bought my HBV, the first few weeks it shot 2 inch 5-shot groups, and now it consistenly shoots around 3/4 moa (at 109 yards that is).
Wes,
saw that you got on your lazer stick (the 6,5x.284) the parker hale bipod attached, half way your stock instead on the "normal" end of the stock, any particular reason for this?
Done some good shooting today, the Winnie is performing exelent with the 155 grainers. Average 5-shot groupsize; 0.79 inch.
Threw 10 of them over the chrono again and this time got better more realistic results; average of 2917 fps, still a happy shooter.
Next week 300 meter range again,
Marco.
ps; concerning ranging, slope doping with gps's etc...; for the rich kids among us, get yourself the fancy kind magellan and the Leica Geovid 1500 LRF, hook them up together with the 1200$ cable and voila; instant range, angle and height difference and 10 digit UTM grid coordinates of your enemy's posistion, within an average of 15 feet... ;)
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 23:00:00 (ZULU)
I sent an email out to everyone earlier today with match details. Several of you signed up for friends/partners and I do not have email adresses for them so you need to get the info to them. If you thought you were signed up and didn't get an email let me know- mistakes happen. Some of you got the email in case your schedule changes or we have cancellations.
Does anyone know C. Smoot- he is signed up but I do not have an address for him or a note that someone else submitted his name.
I will forward responses to questions to everyone on the list so as to minimize my time at this miserable keyboard.
Rod
rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com >
- Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 23:51:52 (ZULU)
Mike Dominick <als2358@blackfoot.net>
Alberton, Montana, - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 00:00:35 (ZULU)
I noticed something interesting on the reloading bench tonight. I'm neck sizing some one fired Lapua and when I went to trim they had all shrunk. I couldn't beleive it so I measured 10 new one which all came out to 2.007", and the 10 fired one measured from 1.98" to 2.00", same lot of brass.
If this keeps up, I'll gladly toss the case trimmer in the Garbage!! I figure it's because they expanded to fit the chamber walls... Does this sound reasonable? Oh, and if I can get 15 - 20 firing per case, these 200 cases will outlast the life of this barrel. Could I be so lucky....
MATCH INFO
Feb 24, F class comp at the AEDC, Tullhoma TN. 60 total rounds, 20 at 500, 600 and 1000K. $10 to shoot. Should be a good time. Anybody wants more info, hit my e-mail and I'll fill ya in. BTW, strictly for bragging rights.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 01:05:49 (ZULU)
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 01:15:17 (ZULU)
Catscratch - I had just 'rit up a long explanation of hte GPS change over when I read yours. Delete time. Oh well, got another piece of worthless advice. If you like the straight pull then get a Blazer. HA and double HA!
Kevin - STAY REMMY just to give 'Lito a heart attack.
Dave - Remember that at longer ranges and steeper angles that you have air resistance that will cause the bullet to strike low even when the correct "base" distance is found. That is why the technique commonly used causes errors at longer ranges. The velocity of the round is still that of the bullet path at 700 meters even if the gravity distance is only 500 meters. This is also why the cosin, or what ever, of bullet path gives a closer read then cosin, or what ever, of range. I KNOW I AM MATH ILLITERATE! Can't spell either. That should help some huh? :-)
Marco - for some dumb reason I was going to tell you that BATF declared them as illegal sound suppressors and not to be used here in the states. Then I remembered that you do not have to worry about that orginization.
Oh well back in the hole for another period of time.
Hold Hard guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 02:31:50 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 03:24:40 (ZULU)
Only good point is the seater still works. I can pull the POS bullet off the steel cases Russian stuff, dump the powder and load my own powder and bullet. It'll save on primers and brass. Guess I'll consider it a cheap lesson learned.. Or I can put the Communist F*ker in the safe and be done with it... Shoulda got a .223!!
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 03:48:58 (ZULU)
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 03:53:02 (ZULU)
Thanks for the dope. I was actually just curious as it's been about 10 years since I played with an M24 in the Army. I've got a Winchester Stealth now and the trigger will be 3.5 on it. I do appreciate the inside scoop.
Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 04:15:03 (ZULU)
I like your question (and I like that Excel ballistics page that someone posted here a while back-it gives me the same results as the ballistics programs I've paid for), and I've had a similar question regarding wind while shooting from elevation. I guess you would need to account for the greater time of flight in your wind tables, and for the lesser distance in your come-up's?
I've noticed that when driving with my GPSIII computing speed in MPH, that it reads incorrectly anytime I'm not moving in a straight line. When I go around a curve or up a hill (maintaining speed) the GPS speed reads lower than my speedometer. The GPS is otherwise very close (or my speedometer is close to the GPS...). Anyway, it is obvious that GPS works best if you are going in a straight line. Does anyone here know how often the GPS signals are transmitted/received?
Tim
Tim <timmead@teleweb.net>
- Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 04:51:40 (ZULU)
Rickster... if them Blasers come with a couple of pretty 5'10" Scandahoovian women, I'll take two ;))
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 05:03:19 (ZULU)
Tim - They are both right, your speedometer is reading the distance covered over ground, THE WHOLE DISTANCE. The GPS is giving you speed you would have needed to cover from point a to b straight line in the same time. Example, you are one side of a table. You go to the other side by walking around. It took you 2 minutes to do so at 5 mph (big a**ed table). the GPS read you going straight through the table and the distance is half that way. So to take you 2 minutes would require you to travel at only 2.5 mph. Simplified and I am sure again the math gurus would eat my lunch for that little example but close enough for gov't work. Same principle going up hill but more so as even stright line up hill causes a diffence form base distance.
ENOUGH, bed time for Bonzo!
Hold Hard guys
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 05:32:59 (ZULU)
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0203/life.html
So nice to find something authentic.
Had a nice day at the range today - fired the self-inflicted glass bedding job Rem 700P .308 for the first time since bedded. Does not appear to have helped tighten the groups - smallest still .5 MOA. Only have 70 rounds through it so far. Maybe it will settle down? Wind was swirling, had to spend a lot of time watching the field expedient trash bag flag to try to catch a lull to shoot. Also used the new Chrony for the first time today. Hint to anyone thinking of buying one - forget the printer. Does not seem worth the money and hassle IMHO. Let another guy fire a group through the Chrony - he did not have one and his hot loads were causing his action to stick. Hmmm ... I do not know much about handloading, but advised him to ditch the other 40 he has loaded. Heard another story about a retired colonel who severely injured (lost fingers?) his hand when his old Lee-Enfield blew out the bottom when he was shooting some handloads a couple weeks ago on the same range. Am thinking about trying it myself (handloading that is, not blowing my weapon up/fingers off). Guess I'll skip watching Baywatch reruns while handloading after hearing and seeing these situations.
Zero question. My Leupold M3 LR has 1 MOA elevation clicks, and the 100 yard zero I have established is consistently .6 inch high at 100 yards. I thought I read that it is better to be over rather than under in this situation, so did not come down one. Is that correct and why?
Thanks,
William M.
William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 06:30:10 (ZULU)
Marco asked why my Parker-Hale bi-pod is not on the end of my stock, but futher back, in the pictures I sent. It's simple. I have the attachment spud in a handstop that goes in the forearm rail. Thus, I attach the P-H to that. Works very well. The stop was almost all the way forward in the photo...
I rarely shoot off my bi-pod, anyway. Prefer to shoot off my pack, but went "light" for the match.
Hope that helps.
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 06:50:52 (ZULU)
Where is Vetsal, New York? I may need something picked up from there and shipped here (Oregon).
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 07:40:46 (ZULU)
William M...
Don't expect more from your Remington, that's about as good as they get.
On the M3 zero... if the velocity is a perfect match to the cam, you will be 6" high at 1000, which is NOTHING in a tactical rifle... but think of it this way... if you are a bit slow, you will fall to the center at 1000. If you are bit fast, then use the -.4", cuz you will fly a bit high... but this is splitting CH's, cuz this "High order mootness"!!
-
Giz... I can't find a "Vetsal", but there is a "Vestal", and it's about 10 miles west of Binghamton.
-
On going slow with GPS, around curves... what Rickster said!!
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 12:07:18 (ZULU)
The best system to use is a DGPS receiver for use by and monitored by the Coast Guard. Their system is accurate within the 1-3 meter range.
Wouldn't want another Exxon Valdez would we?
Also, due to the satellites orbit, each vehicle is re-positioned to correct its orbit and duing this time is unusable for approximately 18 hours. You could experience an erroneous readout if you happen to be receiving from one of the birds at that time.
As far as how often they transmit, it is continuously. Same as an airport VOR. It is there for use at all times.
SSG Scott
SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 13:04:52 (ZULU)
When I was in HS, we shot against the Vestal 4 position Small Bore team. The climate what it is in NY, is the HighSchool selling of it's target rifles?? I don't beleive there's anything else in Vestal besides the High School and some Dairy farms, and I doube your having a Heffer shipped ;))
PS. They were awesome rifles in '89.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 13:36:17 (ZULU)
Your compensator may be pinned or welded to the barrel to comply with the post-ban silliness. Use a magnifier and see if you can locate the ground ends of a pin or weld slag. Can you see a peel washer assembly between the compensator and barrel? If it is pinned or welded, about the only way off is to chuck it in a lathe and cut it off, and try to pick up original thread at the crown.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 14:06:34 (ZULU)
i am always saying i got an AR15A4, well it actually is an A3 (whats the difference?).
It is an Colt AR15A3 tact carbine, on the other side it says some restricted belony mil,govern,LE export only, and yes, i can see some kind of washer/ ring, but i do not think it is the peel kind cause i do not see no opening.
don't think it is welded either.
Think i should bring it to a gunsmith instead of trying it myself, switching the compensators?
Rick,
don't say it out loud again, cause we got our own kind of BATF overhere with their own set of freaky rules...next thing you know and it is banned overhere aswell.
For instance we are not allowed to have rifles with foldable butstocks, unless they are permanently locked, otherwise it is way to easy to carry it under a coat (but we are allowed pistols /revolvers and 10 inch ar's and microgalils....go figure).
And a reall nono in windmill country is a pistolcartridge shooting carbine, even if they are made permanently semi-auto, so no uzi's and mp'5 for us dutchies...but a 9mm AR15 is no problem...trying to figure out those rules will eventually drive you insane.
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 14:28:36 (ZULU)
Look at the joint where the barrel and the flashhider join if there is a silver washer it should screw off. They may have put some red loctite on it and if so you will have to heat it with a torch.
If at the joint there is bronzish colored area right at the joint it is probably silver soldered and you will definately have to use a torch. Depending on the tin content you may have to use an accetaline torch to get it hot enough to remove. If that don't work do what Bill suggested.
Out,
TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 14:34:31 (ZULU)
But i have heard that after the September 11th attack "non" US citizens can not rent guns or buy ammo at comrcial ranges like Knobcreek and Gunsight .
Could somebody clarify this for me .
If it is true i am stuffed .
missedbymiles <missedbymiles@ic24.net>
LONDON, UK, UNITED KINGDOM - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 14:52:21 (ZULU)
That's how I got the .22 rimfire 40-X. A real yuppy private school here (Choat), shut down their rifle team, and dumped all the rifles on a dealer for a flat rate of $300 each.
Most were old Rem 513's, three Win 52-C's, and one Rem 40-X. He was selling all of them for $400 each, and I got the 40-X before they even went out on the racks. It was missing the rear iron sight (no problem for me), and the stock looks like any school team gun... but nothing some paint stripper, a soldering iron, and some spray polyurathene won't fix... it'll look like new on the first week of warm weather.
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 16:54:15 (ZULU)
Thanks for the explanation, I really knew what was going on, I was just pointing out the straight line thing to anyone who didn't know. I figured that in the "computer age" there wouldn't be an error just for going around a curve or up a hill in a relatively slow vehicle.
As far as GPS transmission rate, maybe it depends on the individual receiver's capability to process incoming data, but if the Tx/Rx rate were higher, the error would be lower going around a curve or up a hill (someone fill me in if I'm wrong). Also, I'm curious to know what the data looks like coming from a satellite: what does it contain, and how long does it take to transmit, how long until the next transmission, etc. I suppose a little research on my part is in order...
Tim
Tim <timmead@teleweb.net>
- Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 17:20:32 (ZULU)
I'm sure you are still at Butner, but when you return how about letting us know how the Service Rifle match went. I understand that there was no wind and the temperature was a nice 60+ degrees.
He he he he he
Maybe we will have the same "good" weather in 3 weeks.
Semper Fi
Paul
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 20:19:05 (ZULU)
I have a GPS question
The problem is when I plot the UTM coordinates from my
GPS to my topo map.
I have taken UTM coordinates of prominent features(land marks)
with my GPS and compared those coordinates of the same land marks
taken with my coordinate scale off of my topo map.
Both coordinates to the east are right on the money.
The problem is the GPS coordinates are 200-250 meters to the north
of whats plotted on the topo map.
The map datum on the GPS is set for the topo map I'm using.
I thought maybe it was the unit so I got another one with the same results.
Garmin told me the accuracy is to within 5 meters.
I can live with that all day long but not 200-250 meters off.
Any thoughts on what it may be?
Thanks
AF <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
- Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 21:33:55 (ZULU)
AB
Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Ar, U.S. of (Smile when you say it) A. - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 22:55:23 (ZULU)
Windage, we don't need no steenking windage.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/17/wbush217.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/02/17/ixworld.html
Some armchair thoughts on an Iraqi bombing campaign by an intelligent civilian. Its worth reading.
http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020225&s=easterbrook022502
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 23:04:49 (ZULU)
When you use your GPS for checking your position on a map, you MUST make sure that the GPS datum is set to the same datum used to make your map, or you will have the errors like what you are describing. Most maps prior to 1990 I believe, were made using the North American 1927 Datum plane as the base of reference. Newer maps(especially military ones, that I know of) are using WGS-84 datum. Hope this helps.
OOPS...I made a boo boo..you already checked the datums!
Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 23:23:21 (ZULU)
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 23:39:35 (ZULU)
Although I can't compete with it, I am going to set my Match Target Competition up with with a DPMS free floater handguard. I don't want to start shooting it like it is with a competition sling, get the dope, and then switch to the free floater handguard and have to dope again.
I'm going to take the Hogue Overmolded free floating tube off my Target Elite and get a DPMS tube with a rail so I can mount a bipod. I want to try it at long range to see how it does.
My Bushy has a muzzle break on it so it is politically and NRA incorrect.
Soooo, until I get a damn good raise or a lot more rod and reels to repair, I can only compete against myself when I get the new handguards in. I am going to order a competition upper and make the necessary improvements to one of the Colt's when the cash allows. I could also rebarrel and improve the Bushy, just don't know yet. Meatwoman's daughter gets married in June so my weaponry budget is going down the isle with me escorting her.
Are you shooting both Saturday and Sunday in March? Saturday is going to be tough on this end but I am trying to work it out.
Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 23:49:56 (ZULU)
Thanx for the feedback on the NATO headstamp mark. Bunch of stuff to learn about this reloading bizz ! Just how I like it :)
AB
Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Ar. , U.S. of (Smile when you say it) A. - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 23:55:20 (ZULU)
Satellites are a monster all their own. Try the following link for info on the GPS constellation:http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gps.html
Click on any of the other links from that page and hopefully it will give you some info on your problem.
This link is used for mapping and imagery: http://164.214.2.59/GandG/sathtml/home.html
Adam
SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, USA - Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 23:58:42 (ZULU)
Bobby - You are right on and the difference is only a couple of meters east west but 250 north south. YOu can check this on the map legend as it states how to convert from one to the other. We still have a mix so sometimes it gets interesting matching up maps.
Tim - actually trans rate will not solve the up down problem. The GPS sees the points or coordinates suspended in space without up or down. Example, if you went up a cliff at 5 mph you would register 0 mph because you did not change coordinates, only altitude and the GPS does not care about that. Now that trans rate will cause the curve situation to be more correct as it will see smaller straight lines then it does when the trans rate is slower. However again the rate will be slower as it is again reading form straight line to straight line and not the gentle curve you just took.
Marco - Sorry man, shuting up now. Would not wish that crap on anyone. Thought you guys had a more sensible bunch.
Back to sleep mode.
Hold hard guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 00:31:33 (ZULU)
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 01:27:16 (ZULU)
On GPS's...I'm not going to get involved. I still believe the guy on the ground had damn well better be able to use a map and compass. It's accurate enough and the batteries don't die. Plus in a major conflict those satellites are gonna disappear in a hurry anyway.
Most of us old war horses have said it before...K.I.S.S.
Of course, I will make one exception...when you talk to Zoomies that never learned to read a map...;-)
Range day tomorrow afternoon. Taking the M25 out for a work out...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 01:56:14 (ZULU)
I can only hope that the brass in charge of the current operations have enough respect for their guys that they now the difference.
Humbled Bolt, Out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 03:18:46 (ZULU)
It appears another call to Garmin is in order.
Never owned a GPS until 4 months ago always used map/compass.
Anyoneone else try to plot the UTM coordinates from a GPS to a
Topo map? And if so what kind of results did you get?
Thanks
Aaron Ford <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
- Monday, February 18, 2002, at 07:08:34 (ZULU)
Shooting !! Im getting damn good 10 feet groups with a nail gun !! ha, no time for real guns at the mo, all i know is wireing, windows, bricks, and tiles, (and the fact that the damn new front door opens the wrong way, so the bloke at the door shop will get it when i get home again, dosey SOB.)
Man have I got withdrawal symptoms from hunting, i need some time in the woods with a gun. Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 08:17:25 (ZULU)
$400, the envious jeers(just like mine) on the faces of all those that read that post must haunt you. If it keeps you up at night, I'll give ya what ya paid for it. ;)))
Tried the Lapua agian yersterday. Shot for groups at 300 and 600 yards. Best I could do was 1.2 moa, same as 100yards. So, I let another guy have at it with 10 rounds,,,, 1.2 moa. I'm wondering now if the thicker brass (higher velocities) isn't playing hell with the 1:12 twist stabilizing a 175SMK, though I did drop my load down .2gr. It's done fine up until now with Starline and Winchester brass.(.62" average out to 600) I'll be loading up 100 more Win cases for the Feb F class comp. Cuting my group size in half is always a good thing for a comp huh... More testing with the Finlandian cases is in order, but it's not looking good for the home team.
On a side note. Will a few of ya that shoot Lupua cases do me a favor. Can ya run the inside measuring teeth of your caliper into a case mouth of one or two and put light prssure on the inside case wall. Now spin it and see if the cases rotate smoothly. The inside case walls of my Lapua have bumps and little round dimples that extend into the case and cause the teeth to drag and stop unless I turn rather hard to get the teeth to jump over it. This doesn't happen with my Winchestr, Starline or Federal cases, which roate smoothly EVERY time. It seems to me that case walls being "unsmooth" would cause the bullets to release differently case to case, thus causing my crappy groups.... If ya'lls cases have smooth inside neck walls, I may have a bad lot of brass.
Pete,
When the house is finally done, she'll be so happy with it she won't even notice you've moved into a tree stand ;))
Thanks in advance for any help.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 14:39:55 (ZULU)
Call me (work hours) and I'll give you his number.
409.983.8643 ofc. 409.726.4037 pgr.
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, February 18, 2002, at 14:52:32 (ZULU)
Sorry to hear that you didn't make it to Butner. Would have been truly interesting with a .223 at 600. I do plan to be there for both days of the match in March. I don't have that many opportunities to get trigger time at 1000 so I figure I had better take advantage of it.
Re: Hamburger Hill
Two weekends ago I had the pleasure of meeting a friend of my father-in-law that was a career military man. Hell of a nice guy. We sat and chatted over a couple of brews and discussed various things military. One topic led to another and then we came to Hamburger Hill. Seems he was one of the guys that made several trips up that hill. The carnage and loss of life he described was unbelievable. I can't even begin to convey his thoughts and feelings regarding that particular hill.
Semper Fi
Paul
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 15:12:04 (ZULU)
start moly-ing your nails, set the squeezer at 2.5lbs, put a hogue grip on it and i bet you will get sub-moa groups...i sh#t you not...;)
Chris,
i have shot many different bullits all with Lapua brass, and at 100 yards i usually (unless i do not my part) get sub moa groups, and all my rifles (old and new) had/ have a 1-12 twist.
Mostly shoot the max loadings, the 155 gets 47 n150, the 167 gets 48.9 n550 and the 185 gets 49 N160 (own recipe...) etc etc and still have not had to buy new cases (shoot aprox 50 rounds average in a week, 100 during comp season).
And i full-lenght size, so after each shoot i have to trim them, i think i have been using them all now for 8 or 9 times and still i do not see any signs except that they are getting lighter due to the trimming.
To be sure i just tried your concentricity trick with the caliper with 20 cases, and nope, i for one do not have the problem with my cases.
So, like you said, it might be a bad lot nr??
(never heard any dutch guy complain about lapua cases, and those are the ones mostly used, cause Win and fed brass is pretty expensive overhere)
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
Nl - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 15:34:06 (ZULU)
I use these ranges for hunting, varminting and competitions (when cheating is allowed :) ).
This spreadsheet, and any for that matter, can store hundreds of predetermined GPS positions.
I have many worksheets and use the appropriate one for the location I'm in. From ANY position I have an existing GPS fix setup for I can immediately determine range, wind correction, elevation requirement and compass heading for ANY OTHER GPS fix that's stored. I don't need to get a GPS postion more than once, I save the old ones.
I prefix nearly all positions in my area and don't often do this in realtime.
I run the spreadsheets on a Cassiopea and take it into the field with me.
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 15:45:41 (ZULU)
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, February 18, 2002, at 16:28:49 (ZULU)
No!
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 16:48:41 (ZULU)
Got my George Gardner rifle today!!
M40A1 look, sniper fill stock in forest camo, O.D. teflon (including the Badger base), 24 inch Rock barrel, heavy Badger recoil lug, Winchester model 70 steel floor plate, Witchita sling swivels (with steel stock inserts).
Been grinning ever since it got here. Now I gotta order a case of Fed GM 175 for the beast and head to Texas for a hog killing.
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 20:16:42 (ZULU)
if possible, i for one would like to see some pictures, and me think... me is not the only one!
Good luck with the new stick,
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 20:28:47 (ZULU)
Mike Miller
The rifle came with one of your slings on it, thanks!!
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, February 18, 2002, at 22:39:23 (ZULU)
I had the same thoughts about the movie thing. Even the movies that are based on a true story have lots of fictional crap in them. Makes it tough to know what really happened.
I read a article in the Opinion/Editorial section of the local newspaper about Black Hawk Down. The writer was pissed because he thought the movie gave the movie-going public the wrong idea about the US involvement in Somalia. According to him it should have been a meals on wheels operation. He also thinks we should have sent the Rangers home, and stayed in Somalia. I shredded his column and put it in my little girl's gerbil cage for a piss absorbant material.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 00:45:39 (ZULU)
I am in the market for a takedown .308...considering the Arms Tech Ltd TTR-700. Very hard finding info on the gun, just curious if anyone here knows something about it(know it was in SAR back in Aug, ordered the back issue today)-searched SC but couldn't find anything. Would prefer a 20in takedown, the Arms Tech is 17in- I'm wondering if this gun only makes sense if you're going to install a silencer. It appears to come with a $389 mil-dot Leupold, but the gun is very pricey at $4200. I'm basically looking for thoughts, opinions.
Thanks in advance.
JG <labtubes@aol.com>
- Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 02:42:25 (ZULU)
The only take-down rifle I have ever seen was made by H-S Precision. It was more expensive, but it may be a better rifle too. I got a brochure around here somewhere on it. If I was gonna spend 6-7 grand for a rifle I wouldnt balk at spending another $800 for a can.
Did you go to the "Hot Links" on the SC homepage? Lots of links for arms makers there.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 03:04:15 (ZULU)
Subject: Flying Blind
While recently flying the "Friendly Skies", a friend was flying from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Unexpectedly, the plane stopped in Sacramento on the way. The flight attendant explained that there would be a delay, and if we wanted to get off the aircraft, we would re-board in 30 minutes.
Everybody got off the plane except one gentleman who was blind. I noticed him, as I walked by and could tell he had flown before because his seeing eye dog lay quietly underneath the seats in front of him throughout the entire flight. I could also tell he had flown this very flight before because the pilot approached him and calling him by name, said, "Keith, we're in Sacramento for almost an hour. Would you like to get off and stretch your legs?" Keith replied, "No thanks, but maybe my dog would like to stretch his legs."
Picture this..... all the people in the gated boarding area came to a complete standstill, when they looked up and saw the pilot walk off the plane with a seeing eye dog! The pilot was even wearing sunglasses. People scattered. They not only tried to change planes, they also were trying to change airlines!
- Fred
Fred <ohc1@pacbell.net>
- Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 03:06:06 (ZULU)
The rifle is $2800, Swivel Bipod $100, Fitted carry vault $300- there is a 6 month wait, the TTR-700 I could have next week.
I checked everywhere, Arms Tech had a website (but took it down for whatever reason).
JG <labtubes@aol.com>
- Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 03:21:15 (ZULU)
I think I heard that one when I still needed a booster seat to see over the cowling for steep turns.
An oldie but a goodie!
~DA
DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Neb, - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 03:23:05 (ZULU)
Is it possible that ol' Wes is M3 Luppie challenged? Tim McCrary(GIZMO) and I met this afternoon at the Wren, OR. range. I brought my M25, with the 6X Luppie M3, for some testing and training.
We chronographed loads. My M118 averaged 2,647 FPS, M852 averaged 2,649 FPS. The star of the day was Federal Commerial 168 gr. Match 2,674 FPS and a spread of only 8FPS!
Shot at 100 yards and worked the cam up to the 1000 yard setting and back to my 100 yard zero. Interpolating the results it looks like the M118 cam is going to be dead on for M852 and M118( or darn close)! Won't know for sure until I can put it across the course and check the come ups. Probably do that this weekend or next week.
The rifle itself was shooting 1/2 MOA and under with whatever we stuffed in it! Geoff Corn does a fantastic job on these.
Tim resighted his 40X .308. He used ammo he bought, at a gunshow, that is M118 match. Misfiring about 10% in both his M24 and 40X platforms. Looks like some bad lots were bought for scrap...or somesuch and sold on the market as "good stuff". Sometimes a bargain isn't a bargain. Seemed to shoot OK when it went bang...
My first real work session with the M3. While I like the M1 series I can see some real advantages to the M3. Luckily, Tim, being a school trained sniper knows a lot about the scope and helped me immensely.Thanks, Tim!
Rick and Gooch-san are probably grinning and saying "I told you so..." about now!
Bottom line? I like both, but am thinking the M3 may be a match made in heaven with my M25...;-)
Ain't love grand!
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 04:19:47 (ZULU)
Thanks to everyone who responded about this town. I was looking at bidding on something on Ebay, and had to pick it up there cuz he wouldn't ship it. I fell asleep at the switch anyway and missed it. Thanks again.
Wes, You are too kind... thanks for the vittles and the company. Keep the redhead.
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 05:25:45 (ZULU)
Thanks, I glued the PSS yesterday and seperated it about an hour ago,
Third bump with the mallet and a clean break....MAN I WAS SWEATTING THAT!!..That steel bed works good, I have a nice even surface with no bubbles or anything. Its still a bit rubbery so I'll start cleaning it up with a file tomorrow.
Do you guys bed the bottom metal as well ( floor plate )? I'm feeling pretty confident right now and still have half the kit left.
I'v kinda been toying with the idea of purchasing a heavy duty piece from badger but am having trouble justifying the expense. ( I need some coaxing )....what do you guys think?
Also does anyone have any thoughts on 30mm ring laps? Brownells sells one for fourty dollars but I was wondering if there is some kind of field expedient method or tool?
Thanks again for the input and i'm looking forward to any more tips.
SGT JAKE (Dreaming of 1/2moa groups) OUT!
Jake P <para13bp@gsinet.net>
New Hampsha, - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 05:29:48 (ZULU)
Thanks,
William M.
William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 05:35:14 (ZULU)
Chris I don't know about moving into the tree stand, after all the damn money we(I) are sticking into the house, I sure as hell want to enjoy it too, Im already planning the machine shop in the cellar and a n air rifle range in the garden, I just keep adding the cost of the house and renovations in safari's and hunting trips, I have to stop doing that, its makes me depressed !!
Wind meters, Jon Beardsley has just got me a nice and niffty little wind meter(just like his) can't wait to test it, tell em all about it Jon !!
Take down rifles, my Marlin 450m takes down nice and short, just by unscrewing the screw that holds the butt on,otherwise how about a Sauer 202, or a Sig SHR, no no no I won't say it, no, a Blaser R93 (yuk spit bah ! damn I said it.) Have any of you guys seen this Remington 700 based take down 3.5lb watsaname,, Kifaru, Kafari,Kartoffeln? shit can't remember, the one with the cut away forstock and the grafite wrap around the barrel to stop you burning your pinkies,
Pete
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 13:20:13 (ZULU)
A cop that passed away's, wife (got all that) is selling his collection. She wants what he has in it $ 5200.00. The lady is grieving so no hard sell calls please.
Serious inquiries only and I'll get you the info and contact #s.
Brian
409.983.8643 ofc. 409.726.4037 pgr.
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 13:48:32 (ZULU)
A little question.
Anyone heard about when contracts will be getting out in relation to the Homeland Defense thing? We've all heard about the gazillion dollars that Bush earmarked but I havent seen any contracts being announced on fedbizops.com or dodbusops.com.
Out here.
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 17:26:18 (ZULU)
Can't you just picture those airport guys walking around the airport in their dark wind breakers with big letters on the back that say FATASS
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 17:54:02 (ZULU)
Busy weekend this weekend! Had the opportunity of a lifetime. My unit's management got me 5 tickets to hear G.W. Bush speak here at Elmendorf Air Plane Patch. Stood 50 ft from W.!!! Wife and kids equally impressed(Right by my side). He had good things to say about the war on terrorism. Now I know why I've stuck with the USAF for as long as I have. I don't mind going back to the sand box to do the business at hand. This time I think I'll help decorate a few of the kabooms before I send em out strapped to the underside of something gray and loud at the speed of heat. I'll keep you all posted as to my whereabouts.
FESTUS
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, Alaska, cold and frozen - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 18:32:58 (ZULU)
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 18:47:47 (ZULU)
What you want to do is to start looking at the trees, the grass, learn mirage through the scope, know when the wind id felt on the face it is atleast 4 mph, and that when the leaves and twigs start to move it is atleast 8 mph. Put it together by making mistakes becasue you said it is 8 mph and dialed on 8 mph worth of wind. If it was wrong then you learned! Each time use what you think and not your second, third, or fourth guess. Accept your mistakes as a learning experience and in a few months you wil have a good feel for the wind. Always look at the wind as a block of speed, say 4 to 6 mph. Then dial in 5 mph worth. If you are right then you will let the wind blow you around in the 10 ring at it varies from 4 to 6. And again you have a start point for later "estimates/guesses". :-)
OK, figure that should start some fun for a while. :-)
Hold hard guys, now running for cover from the incoming.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 22:25:14 (ZULU)
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 22:41:56 (ZULU)
I'm with Rickster on the wind thing...
I've shot at ranges where the 300 yd flag was straight out at 3:00, and the 700 yd flag was straight out at 9:00, and there was nothing on me at all... look at the trees, and the grass at different places across the path, and then let loose with your best guess (and say three "Hail Marys")!
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 22:53:49 (ZULU)
I agree with you guys 100%. I always tie a length engineer's tape to my scope stand when I am shooting the High Power Rifle matches. My son is usually my shooting partner. The first time I put that tape on the scope stand my son asked me how come I never looked at it. I told him it didnt tell me anything. Lots of the guys I shoot with have every damned gizmo/gadget ever invented. They got these AR15 "space" guns that have so much crap on them that it doubles the cost of the rifle. The tape is my gadget, and it looks cool.
I have been very fortunate to have had some really good coaches when I started shooting HP Matches. They taught me to read wind values via the methods you mentioned, and to make a decision and run with it. They were the best shooters, and they didn't have any damn gadgets at all. "Be Bold, or Go Home" was their motto. The learning curve was steep as I made LOTS of mistakes.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 23:34:17 (ZULU)
Thanks
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 02:52:55 (ZULU)
Ken testing <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 03:12:44 (ZULU)
http://www.ichkeria.org/a/2001/10/com0210-en83410.html
---------
Sniper-for-Hire Dreams of Her Own Home
The Moscow Times
Nabi Abdullaev
02-10-2001
VLADIMIR, Central Russia -- Galina Sinitsyna has spent months trying to persuade military recruitment officers to send her to Chechnya to kill rebels for money.
Inspired by the sudden wealth of contract soldiers returning from the war zone, she wants to use her skills as a competitive shooter to become a sniper.
"Where else can I earn enough to buy a new apartment for us?" said Sinitsyna, 40, who has an 18-year-old son. <more>
------------
(Rant Mode)
I had an International Studies Prof discussed WMD in his lecture tonight. He lumped landmines and conventional wpns (rifles, tanks, etc) in with WMD. Harped about how the Soviet PFM-1 mine (AKA "butterfly mine") was designed, manufactured and targeted toward the civilian population, specifically children. Could not get the SOB to acknowledge me when I had my hand raised for 5 minutes but would talk to me after class when most were gone. Then he admitted that it may not have been designed for that purpose but since thats how it was used... Then why not cover the tactics side of it rather than intended design of it? No good response to that.
He talked about the Tokyo Subway Sarin Gas incident and fudged that one two, but one battle at a time. I wonder if I get points for "critical reasoning"? (and this guy is also the Dean)
CDC - you should have your own "CDC Hot Intel Links" page. I print most of those articles off, run copies and distribute them to the people who sit next to me in Int. Studies and also in U.S. Foreign Policy. I am slowly forming a pro-military clique in my section of the room. Once I have enough members I plan on splitting into two cells and "militarizing" the rest of the fine arts/liberal arts students.
Yea right... I wish.
Later~
(sorry for the off-topic bandwith useage)
DakotaAviator <dakotaaviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Neb, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 03:24:26 (ZULU)
Dakota...
That thing about the Russian sniper has been around for a few years. I've seen it several times. I heard they turned her down.
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 03:40:46 (ZULU)
Ken testing <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 03:42:24 (ZULU)
I like having a wind gauge on the line for one reason. It helps the students get a zero on the effects of the wind. For example, "okay guys the wind is blowing the leaves in the trees (or whatever) here where we are at. What is the velocity?" They guess and I give them the true velocity at our location or you have a feller down range with a wind gauge and a radio and have the studs guess the velocity at his location and he calls back the correct velocity.
When I was teaching a lot, I figured out how the wind sounded in my ears at different speeds. When I started to hear that little "howl" from the wind it was 10 mph, confirmed by wind gauge. I have one of those el cheapo Dwyer gauges in my databook that I break out every now and then when I wanna look like a high speed mutha. Dont need batteries.....
In a tactical situation wind gauges are worthless. What are you gonna do stick your hand out of your hide to get a velocity? Old Mo the raghead is looking out over his herd of rare, Egyptian minature camels wondering which one he is going to marry, and he sees this little ghillie arm poke out of a bush ground with a Kestrel wind gauge...DOH!
Okay, pour a bunch of shit into the blender and stand by cause I'm a gonna stir some up. I know there is some rocket scientist out there who will chime in and this will get wild. Although I KNOW that snot bro Rick has got to know the answer to this...
If the wind is blowing at an average of 5 mph (we all pretty much know that wind rarely cooks along at 1 specific speed) at my position how can the velocity be anything differnt 600 yards away? WHats slowing it down? Now I know there are dead spots due to trees etc but these winds are being pushed by HUGE pressure differentials that dont give a rat fuck about a little tree here and there. My theory is that ON AN OPEN RANGE wind may vary in DIRECTION down range but rarely will the actual velocity change much. Im not talking about a situation such as an urban enviroment where you have lots of shit blocking out the wind and I am talking about AVERAGE wind speeds. By average I mean that will be gusts but there will be gusts at the FFP, mid range, target etc.
Last comment before I turn the blender on. I have always taught that it is far better to make your best guess on the wind, dial it on, then focus on firing a good shot with perfect fundamentals rather than getting all wrapped around the axel on the wind. Put SOMETHING on for the wind, IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION (important training point!) then when the time comes to fire, focus on the fundamentals and fire a good shot. In a TRUE sniper team the observer is sweating the wind and the sniper just focus's on firing a good shot. I've seen more good wind calls fucked by a poor shot than good shots fucked by a totally wrong wind call.
Think about it. I call the wind full value 9 O'clock, 10 mph @ 600 yards. My handi dandi TRGT databook ($39.95 from US Tactical Supply) tells me that I need 5.5 minutes of left wind. Well shazam! Its really 8 mph which only requires 4.5 moa. Okay the shot potential is now 6" left of where it should be. So with a well fired shot we should still get a hit in a pretty good wind at a pretty good distance.
NOW...Lets get the perfect wind call, dial it on and flinch when we fire the shot....
I'll take the bad wind call.
Bottom line for wind. Put something on in the correct direction and fire a good shot. In the highpower community the saying was "A "nine" at 9 O'clock is the same as a "nine" at 3 O'clock."
Any thoughts? Lets see.....how about "puree"?
Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 03:52:52 (ZULU)
Thanks for the info on lapps, I picked up the lap and compound from Sinclairs for less than half of what Brownells was charging for just the lap.
Anyone know where I can find a good camo pattern for a stock?
My AO is wooded areas in southern NH, I'm thinking OD TAN BROWN?
Also , does anybody have any experiences with Brownells ALUMIHIDE?
It's made with apoxy so me thinks it will be much tuff no? plus they make it in all the matte colors.
Going to Boston tommorow with the Old Lady. Land of the gun haters, I'm not going to feel right not carrying . Am I paranoid?
Thanks for opinions, SGT Jake
Jake P <para13bp@gsinet.net>
New Hampsha, USA,...USA,...USA....USA.......USA.........USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 04:39:25 (ZULU)
To all,
I'm considering purchasing a team scope for use at the matches. Does anyone know if Unertl still makes their 100mm model? What would be a good alternative?
Paul M.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
AL, - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 05:22:58 (ZULU)
Wind is the movement of air molecules, caused when one air mass (warmer or cooler) pushes, mixes with, overtakes, or colides with another air mass. These air masses actually flow (or rotate) in opposite directions, causing friction and mixing. This mixing is a function of fluid dynamics. And when this happens, little eddies (swirls) are created, just like when one liquid is poured into another liquid. These eddies can range from itsy-bitsy to several hundred feet. Toss in a few trees and terrain features and you get more eddies. Thus, you have instances when the wind blows in circles, more or less. Combining all these little eddies from muzzle to target gives you an average speed for the wind, which can vary all the way down range.
How'd I do teach'?
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
AL, - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 06:00:05 (ZULU)
This is good shit... now we are getting somewhere. I think I just got a woody.
Gooch... "My theory is that ON AN OPEN RANGE wind may vary in DIRECTION down range but rarely will the actual velocity change much."
You are correct in all respects, but in regard to your above statement, the velocity can vary greatly depending on terrain features, such as a gap in the trees, a saddle or sloping hillside, the wind can shoot through an area by a venturi effect. A classic example is Range 19 at Camp Robinson. But as you stated "ON AN OPEN RANGE", the velocity should stay pretty constant.
Calling wind is an almost mystical art. Some guys can make it look so easy. I was very fortunate, in that when I went through sniper school, I got paired up with Mike Masters, who knew how to call wind and read trace very well. I would be on the spotting scope and would give him a wind call. He would glance back at me and a say "you sure?" He knew very well I had screwed the pooch on the call. He could call it from the rifle scope better than I could from the M49. He would do that when I was right too, just to keep me honest. I felt bad because I screwed up quite a few shots for him with bad calls when we were shooting for score, but I finally learned. Only by actually doing it, will you learn it.
Tim
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 06:08:52 (ZULU)
A wind gauge (anenometer?...too lazy to consult Webster) is a worthwhile learning tool. You press the button, look at the trees, push it again, look at the grass, push it again, look through your scope at the mirage,...you get the picture. You learn when you do this, but you must take your shot, engage your brain, and not think that some little gizmo is going to do your thinking for you.
A few of the guys on this board sat in a barn a couple of summers ago and listened to an EXCELLENT lecture by a retired senior engineer from Motorola who was also a competitive glider pilot. He held a Phd in one or another of the engineering disciplines. Mike Miller, Mike Seehan, and Stan Easly were there. The subject of this lecture was wind effect near the ground.
At the risk of making a bullion cube of the ox, I'll sum it up in a few sentences. The ground slows the wind. At the ground, the wind is zero. The higher you get, the stronger the wind, and it gets strong pretty quick. The longer your shot, the higher the bullet must go and the stronger wind it passes through.
Low bushes take a lot of force off a wind. Shooting on the lee side of a long clearing is completely different from shooting on the other side. Canyons concentrate the wind. Mountains deflect it. Air moves like water.
When you are training and shooting matches, look at your wind gauge and the mirage and engage your brain. Looking at data tables isn't a complete waste of time, but its close.
But, as Gooch said, none of this means a thing if you don't have a uniform tension on the rifle, break the trigger cleanly, and SEE THROUGH YOUR SHOT!!
The engineer's name is Paul. He took a stock Rem with a stock M3, Loopy dual dovetails and an unajusted trigger and beat Mike S with his Jerry Rice rifle and me with my ugly old Winchester. We both made stupid mistakes, but you get the idea. Paul recommended a book named, "Weather Near The Earth", or "Weather Near the Ground" or something.
Mike Miller said that he had never had a comparable class.
I've used the info since. It worked.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 06:14:44 (ZULU)
Here in SoDak we never get the opportunity to see our wind flags long enough to decide which o'clock it's hittin' us from, by the time we get 'em tied off and are back to shoot, they're gone, so I just park the ol' Dodge within sight and make windage adjustments according to how fast and which direction it's rollin', hahah.. I think mrbullet can back me up on this, just last week you could have gauged the wind by the directions the neighbors shingles were flyin, ha!
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
East River, sd, - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 07:41:52 (ZULU)
Anybody ever use an ATN scope? I have a chance to buy one cheap but dont want to waste money on a bad choice. It is 6 X 12 X 60mm Ill. Ret. BDC w/ rings 30mm main tube.
Festus
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 09:49:11 (ZULU)
The Unertl team scope hasn't been made in a long time, but do show up used once in a while for around $1,500 and up, depending on the eyepieces, and condition.. a better (and way smaller) scope would be the 100mm Optolyth for about $2,500 with a few eyepieces. It will run circles around the big Unertl
-
JR... in SoDak, don't mess with no flags... correct for the lean of the truck ;))
-
Festus... ATN?? RUN LIKE HELL... this is probably the worst POS on the market. There is no such thing as a "good price". Even if you get it free, you paid too much!!!
-
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 11:49:49 (ZULU)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 13:18:49 (ZULU)
Sorry the LTR doesn't seem to be performing with heavy bullets, but, always needing another PD rifle{seriously} how did it shoot the 55s????..Call if you decide to dump it.
Going to fetch the Larues for the match today..A couple have to go back to Texas for some rewiring but should be back in time..
outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
The Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 14:40:32 (ZULU)
I have one which I have found very useful. As has alraedy been mentioned, they are an excellent training device. Before I had it I just knew the wind was blowing, but had little idea what the speed was. So now, when I am out and about and the wind is up I can look at the trees, see them twitch and think 'what speed is that?' push the button and presto, or when the birds are flying backwards I can push the button and say 'next time I see birds going in reverse I know its x mph'. Quicker than having to guess the wind from scratch and fire a shoot to see how wrong you are, not as much fun granted, but quicker.
Jon
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 14:43:49 (ZULU)
Despite having an almost mystical ability to read the wind, Paul was a very nice guy and a good sport. We were all trying to learn from him.
Every class that James and Mike have put on has been filled with a very interesting and broad range of students. I have learned quite a bit from both the students and the teachers, (as well as had a fantastic time)
Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 14:47:38 (ZULU)
Alas, like any drug, unconditional respect is VERY BAD for you. You want more, so you start to spout off about everything you know, and sooner or later, no matter how much you really do know, you say something that isn't correct. The puppies eat it up... no-one calls you on it. To me, this is mucho bad juju... Men who will go in harms way without validating what someone told them....SHEEPLE.
I recently started telling them deliberately false things, then pointing them out the next day... using the "gotcha" to encourage them to validate and test everything I say... it keeps me sharp and keeps them alive....
Bottom line (my point)... No matter how much you respect what others tell you, go out and test it. Make up your own mind. When someone you respect says "I'm gonna stir up a sh_tstorm...." Make sure you test what they say and throw it back at them if what you see doesn't work like they said...complacency kills senior guys too.
Note - this isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just had the urge to vent, there is too much damn consensus on this board lately.
My comment on the "Liberal Arts - pro-military post"....HOW ABOUT PRO TRUTH! Teach people HOW to think (and how to see the manipulation taking place around them), don't try to teach anyone WHAT to think, that IS MANIPULATION and it is "un-American" by my definition. This is very specifically what is wrong with our society today...
---standing near my poorly kept foxhole, pretty sure no-one will fire back since it is impolite to make loud noises and we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's sensibilities -----
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 14:51:11 (ZULU)
I, like everyone else, teach about four methods of wind velocity estimation plus the use of the wind gauge. When the guys ask me which method I use I answer, All of them, and then make my best SWAG like everyone else. The more experience you have the better the SWAG will be.
JR,
In your wind conditions, wow, I think if practical I would have to do my best to move my crusty old butt on the 6/12 line. He He
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 14:51:40 (ZULU)
CDC is correct. Paul was a beginner rifleman and in one week he was beating some of the best shots I have ever had in a class. CDC and Mike S. are very good and I would put them up against any I know on long range. Paul is a world class glider pilot, so wind is frankly his life. He recommended a book called "The weather at ground" I found the book and read it. Opened my eyes a bit about how the wind works. It explained many things I had seem but never knew why (Hell I am only a stupid cop). CDC just gave a good short explanation to it. One thing I picked up from Paul is "Think of wind as water. It flows around objects and takes the path of least resistence" I started looking at the rivers of wind and finding ways to cross them.
Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 15:01:44 (ZULU)
Been real busy so haven't had much time to post. Good topic on reading wind. Like JR. says we get a lot of it out here. The one thing that is really true as Mike said, think of wind as water it will make more sence to you on why it does what it does.
I am lucky because I get to shoot in a lot of different winds and over different terrains. When you shoot over the areas with small hills and draws it makes for some interesting wind calls. You can actually have a half or three quarter value wind and be shooting down a long draw and have the wind actually cancel out down range because it gets "Funneled down the draw.
Gooch and Rick brought up some good points, you need to learn to read wind not with just a wind gauge or flag. I, like Gooch, used a wind gauge so I could learn what the actual speed of the wind is. I would make my call on the wind and then check it with the wind gauge and see how close I was.
I don't remember if Gooch or Rick said it but I also will average the wind and make my dial for what I think the "Average" is. The thing that kills me is "GUSTS"!!! I hate them!! We will have a 10 to 15mph wind with gusts to 25mph. I wish someone could tell me how to read them so I could predict when one is going to hit.
I have also found that when shooting past 600yds there is "Never" a no wind call at least out here. When it seems dead calm there is still some type of wind blowing around and its ususally a nasty "Switching wind" with constantly changes directions until it picks up to a breeze. I imagine it to look like a snake moving through the grass. It will put your bullets on either side of the target and trying to correct for it will drive you crazy. You just chase your bullets all over the paper. Give my a steady wind anyday!! Good topic keep up the comments.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 15:30:43 (ZULU)
Pat; I don't think anyone can predict them but if your spotter is good and is watching for them, then you will be concentrating on the shot while he reads the wind and when he says send it your good to go. Trust him, it's lessons learned by the team....
And like the others said; The SWAG will get better and closer with practice. I'm not sure about the howling though. I usually get that because may ears aren't ringing anymore because I haven't been to the range recently. Or was that because I forgot to do something and it's really not my ears, it's the wife reminding me. Whatever...
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 16:02:34 (ZULU)
Out at our Provincial Rifle Association Range (900m KD) in the foothills of the Rockies we have had some great opportunites to see how wind works. Located on the side of a mountain the terrain rolls down across some varying terrain. We have popped some different smoke grenades at various ranges and watched as the wind swurled, funneled etc. (I now know why shooting there in a 12/6' Wind you can get elevation deviations of at least 3MOA).
I had a Kestrel 3000 for awhile and then realised that I was too concerned with the numbers it read and not paying attention to the effects down range.
That and I occasionally shoot F Class out there beside some of the TR Palma shooters - some of these guys are in their 80's and are the biggest resource that a young (32) shooter can have. They make wind calls that I start to smirk at then they are in the V bull while I am not.
Old Experienced shooters are probably the best resource for OJT Wind Estimation.
Kevin of the Great White North <kevin.cantac@shaw.ca>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 16:58:04 (ZULU)
That's why when I retired, I stayed here, where except for a hurricane every now and then, it is at least fit for human habitation. Just joking Kev.
You sure are correct about what the wind will do in the mountains even on the 6/12 line. I have also seen th wind do wonderous things between large buildings in the big cities. That venturi stuff.
That smoke thing is a great teaching tool.
I also like to work with the average or constant part of the wind and have a good spotter to talk to. That has always been the most successful for me. But, there is nothing like a good tailing wind that keeps moving back and forth from about 5 and 7 o'clock to drive you absolutly bug F%#@. You gotta love it.
The water anaogy is a great way to explain it and look at it.
Semper Fi,
Finger
jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 18:00:15 (ZULU)
A thought on wind. 75-90 knots stick aft rotate nose. 115-125 lift off. 155-210 suck up the gear and flaps. 300+ climb like hell...
I usually try to read grass at impact area or mirage. Even tree wind is to far off the ground sometimes.
Festus
festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
way up north, where the air is cold , and moose are scared - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 19:13:34 (ZULU)
My 2 cents on the wind. I agree with all that have posted here so far, all descriptions apply. With regards to long range winds, something the .408 project has been dealing with extensively.
Winds frequently are not only different direction, but different velocities as well. Not only that, but the higher the maximum ordinate, the greater the velocity AND effect of the wind at that altitude. Here are some examples.
Recent out of country trip to train guys on anti-material interdiction using .50 BMG rifles. Our computer fire control system for the .408 addressess all US military sniping cartridges from 7.62mm to .50 BMG and some specials along the way. There are 3 points of entry for winds 1. at the gun, 2. at midpoint or max ordinate range, and 3. at the target.
All are weighted differently based on a rather large data base on information gained in testing using Doppler radar. In one situation, shooting at 1625 yards, we had winds at the gun at 12 kph from 7 oclock, winds at mid range to target of 25 kph!!, yep 25 kph from 9 o'clock, and winds at the target of 30 kph, from 11 oclock.
The guys were very good at looking at terrain features, studying wind and weather patterns for the surface and using that data to put in the 3 different wind variables. Needless to say, if you would ignore any of the 3 conditions stated, a miss would occur. Can't say the nature of the targets, but they were slightly wider than the average human being, when talking about wind, height doesn't matter, i think.
Based on 2 years of testing, we've determined that you can read down range winds and integrate that information with terrain analysis as Gooch mentions. I agree with him on that. For most situations shooting .308 guns to 600 yards or so, downrange winds are not likely to be different velocities, but as he also says, they can easily be in different directions.
Here's an old arguement... winds at the gun being the most critical. I understand totally the point mentioned about a bullet picking up a crosswind velocity, then carrying that offset all the way downrange. In my opinion, the bullet must be exposed to those "winds at the gun" values for at least 1/3 the flight distance before those winds mean more than the winds downrange. In fact, that's more than opinion, that's fact proven in testing.
Here's an example, ever shot from a hovering helicopter at a target 300 yards away? The downwash at 150mph from a hovering helo suggests a windage correction of 12.64 minutes of angle using our computer. These are proven figures,,, BUT, it doesn't work like that. The real deflection over that range is only about 2-3 minutes of angle in those conditions.
Why? Again, this is not a guess, it's measured. The rotor wash isn't pushing the bullet long enough, or the bullet isn't exposed to that 150 mph wash long enough to offset the 12.64 minutes the computer says it should be. We've been doing the long range wind game for a couple of years then integrating that into the computer for the .408 system.
Is this computer good? Well two major CT units in the world are now using them. Not a sales gib, but they are working and working well. I know this adds fire to the discussion, just observations.
Take care, good to be back and write some again.
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 19:55:31 (ZULU)
Based on his testing, there seems to be a good reason that we have been told all these years to focus our spotting scopes 1/3 to 1/2 the distance to the target to read the mirage!
What I want to know is, since it is a given that average joe shooter will not get his mits on the super duper - probably classified or restricted - windage calculator program, do you have any sort of formulas to take the three wind readings into account for us? Probably more calculation than you want for tactical purposes but us paper punchers might use it. Are we talking vector equations and calculus?
OH NO - Not Math Country again! forget I even asked!
Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West, PA, USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 21:00:07 (ZULU)
You're right about the distance. I remember being initially taught that the distance is 1/2 to 2/3 the range to the target. In the short version, that does a fine job for ranges to 1000 yards or so.
The formulas that we use in the computer are definately too complex with too much database information to turn into a pen and paper or simple calculator program. Besides, we worked them out and it cost plenty. The program isn't restricted or classified, it's just expensive (mostly driven by the cost of the hardware platform).
My humble advise is to do what you've done, 1/2 to 2/3 the distance. Here's a hint though, for those shots past 800 yards, where the max ord is getting close to the point where the surface winds (those a ground to +4') are steady and stable, into the more unstable winds at 5'feet.
Here's a good exercise to do. Using a high contrast surface, a 3x8' board painted checkerboard works good. Place that board downrange at 700 meters or so. Watch the mirage at the ground level (first 12") and look at the same mirage at 7' above the ground. You'll see differing mirages.
Use that same method and push the range out and bring it in, you'll begin to see the distances at which max ord winds do not affect the winds that you see with the spotting scope, which is slightly above ground level. This is another major factor when shooting over canyons when you are reading mirage at the target area, BUT the winds at the max ordinate range (+15' or more above line of sight) are going to be higher. Remember that mirage fades into oblivion at about 12 mph or more, depending on meteorological conditions. I've seen many guys blow the wind because they think they see NO mirage, yet it's only that the mirage is blown away by the high speed winds that are off the ground level.
Example: Max ord winds for a .308 shot at 1000 yards are at +13' maximum ordinate. For the .408 using the 305 gr. bullet, the max ordinate is 5.2'. The 305 gr. bullet is shot at 3500 fps and IS solely intended for defensive uses to 1000 yards using the RIZ method. The point is that the 305 gr. 408 bullet is not exposes to the max ordinate winds that MUST be considered for the 7.62mm M118 SB Long Range round that is used in the example.
Just for the discussion, a 10 mph wind will deflect the 305 gr. .408 round 3.15 MOA or .93 MILS. The 7.62mm M118 SBLR round is deflected 8.42 Minutes or 2.50 MILS under the same conditions... sorry long winded. Interesting subject.
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 21:32:17 (ZULU)
Ok, so what about shooting the .308 across a valley (let's say 800-1000 yards) where that "magic" 1/3-2/3 distance is way up there in the air? Given that the wind IS stronger the further up you get, how does one go about putting a value on it. Kinda hard to see mirage a couple hundred feet above the valley floor. Do you go with what you see at the target, feel at the firing point, take at target value plus some percentage or a combination of target and ffp?
Fascinating subject - yes! Although some would call it "Ballistic Masturbation"!
*edited for lack of spell check*
Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West, PA , USA - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 21:51:16 (ZULU)
But who wants to haul around and be dependent on some clunky calculator? You can just use your data book and figure windage adjustments out in your head.
Wait a minute, do you suppose Bruce Robinson would have any interest in developing a "Windage Master"? It could go for $30, weigh almost nothing and not need batteries.
Are you out there Bruce?
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 22:46:51 (ZULU)
An example. Wind kicked my ass at 600 this past weekend. I had a verticle spread of about 4 inches, but my horizonal stringing ran about 10 to 12 inches. I dialed in for my original wind call and had at it for 8 rounds. Hard to believe that what looks to be a very slight change, can make 10 inches of diffrence at 600 yards. My initial shot was 3/4" from the left edge of the orange (10 and X rings) area on a B27 economy. The following shot ran anywhere 2" right of initial shot to the edge of the arm on the right side of the target. Kinda humbling, printing how much I suck, but hopefully I'll take enough away from this thread to not "em BARE ass" myself on the range in the coming comps.
So Mr.Owl, how many licks.. I mean, how much wind would it take to move a .308win with a 175SMK over 44gr Varget, 10" in 600 yards? Roughly,,,,, cause the wind change looked like nothing...
Has anyone recently used an IOR tactical scope. One that was produced in the last 6 or 8 months? I'm wondering specificlly if the repeatability and standardization of 1/4moa adjustments (both phyically and marked on the turret) have been improved in the last couple years. They have released a new 10x42 tactical. Looks like a tank.
http://www.valdada.com/vn/ior/02?token=7Jid-aD2EOZIU73IF4LOcw
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 22:51:21 (ZULU)
i find all this talk bout wind exciting too,
so i did the calculating stuff for you on our balistic proggie-QuickTarget.
You said a 175 smk behind 44 grains of varget at 600 yards...acording to my proggie it says you need to have a 3.2 mph 90 degree angle wind difference to move the bullet 10 inches.
I have no experience with Varget yet, but isn't 44 grains of Varget behind the 175 bullit a bit much?
Cause 44 grains seems to give alot of pressure? (aprox 4204 bar)
Just curious cause i ordered 1 kilo of Varget to tryout myself,
Marco.
Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 23:48:24 (ZULU)
Thanks for the work-up. 3.2 mph... Yup, not much wind at all. Calling wind is a black art, or some kinda 6th sense I guess. I'll be 'Lito's age before I figure this stuff out. ;))
44 gr of Varget is a pussycat. I've had up to 45gr under a 175, seated to 2.825" OAL and it didn't even phase the soft 210M primers.(WLR work best for me) I'd bet you could fill the case up to the neck, crunch the powder back down while seating, and have no problems, but I'll not do it personally, and don't recommend it. As far as pressure, I can't say, but I shoots good(in my win cases), doesn't hurt my cases, and burns clean. Some of the highpower guys I've been shooting with say they can't get the velocity out of it they want (223rem), but it shot well for me at 200 with a 69gr SMK over 24.3gr Varget(compressed) and a WSR primer in an LC case. No signs of pressure. I like it, and it's been said PeteR likes it too ;)))
3.2 mph... unbelieveable... it felt like more on my face, and the trees were swayin' at 300. I'd have guessed an speed of roughly 10mph, but again, I suck at this...
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 00:20:56 (ZULU)
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 00:26:40 (ZULU)
Gentlemen, in my youth I was the lead Mechinician on a phased array Doppler radar experiment station funded by the DoD and the FAA.
The purpose was to read the wind and look for downbursts that can cause a plane to crash.
After looking at hours of captured wind patterns I can say with absolute certainty…
“Reading the wind is at the very best an educated guess”
Don’t over think it just shoot…shoot and shoot some more and record everything, use flags in the beginning take notes. Then move on and shoot some more, you will never get a system that you can teach, you will only do it with practice and detailed notes.
Anyone who has ever won a big match (Wimbledon, Palma etc) has a log book of pure gold, every shot taken, every detail of the range, weather, everything.
After “Seeing the wind” (which was the projects motto) I am amazed that we can hit anything. But what it told me is that bullets are a lot more forgiving than I would have ever guessed.
Just my 2 cents…..Keep shooting!
Marty
Marty <Badgerord@aol.com>
- Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 01:23:07 (ZULU)
One of the things that causes this is the fact that the wind comes in waves. If you are on the wrong end of the wave, you may feel the wind BEFORE it gets to the target area, or you may feel the let up before it gets to the target area. This is why you see shooters pointing their scopes into the wind at Perry to see what wind is coming not the wind that has been there. :-)
Paul - You get the golden banana!
A quick warning for those that love wind flags, and know the formula of degree divided by 4 equals wind in mph, ie 40 degress equals 10 mph. It only works on the correct standard size COTTON flag, not the nylon one. The nylon one flys to high in a light wind. Also if the cotton one gets wet, oh well.
100mm Team scopes, what Cat shooter said, we use the Optolyth with the variable eyepiece. Not cheap but we used the Unertl and the Optolyth side by side for one course and have not used the Unertl since.
Pat - You read gusts by the 3 o'clock 5 ring spotter. :-) You are correct, that boiling mirage is only a warning that the wind is going to do something nasty.
In my small experience, it is better to shoot during a moving mirage so you KNOW the directin then to see a boil, roll onto the gun, aim, let the wind change, fire. Opps! Also a boil may actually have a 1 mph to 2 mph fish tail that is very hard to see on alot of days. That 2 mph to 2 mph to the other side is a 4 mph shift. You guys do the math on that one. Especially if you are chasing a spotter instead of calling the wind as you should be doing.
Chris - The shift of 3.2 mph is a variance on your first estimate and is not hard to miss. Say at 600 you were looking at the wind in the 8 to 12 mph range. Well a variance of 8.5 to 11 mph could be missed a not significant and could be hard to see if the mirage was real thin. that set also gives about the same effects on the natural objects around you. Leaves and twigs are moving while small branches begin to wave a bit. Loose bits of paper of paper are lifted and ruffled. Now you have to experience the degree to which this is occuring. As an example at 8 mph the leaves will move but the small branches will be quiet or just beginning to react. While at 11 the small branches are now moving noticiably but not in a full sway. Look ott he grass for gusts and slight changes in the direction. This will also give you the cycles of wind and the areas that the wind are funneling through. Keep watching and making your SWAGs. As long as you check wind from multiple locations on the range and use several techniqques you will get better. Do not zero in on one technique. Do as Finger said and use as many as possible.
Marco - My computation for 3.2 mph was 9.6 inches. A 3.3 mph wind would give him a 10 inch shift. MATH COUNTRY!!!!!
Marty, you are correct in that reading wind is a guess, and a guess that is in the past. By the time you shoot, it has changed some. Sometimes a little, sometimes alot! :-)
Hold hard guys, I'm running for cover! And as was put out by Jim, always question, always learn.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 02:34:22 (ZULU)
Ken testing <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 03:22:19 (ZULU)
(I just wish I had more to add) I have just observed that the wind kicks my ass, and I need to shoot more and take better notes!
I thank everybody for the quality posts. (We need to have this discussion in the "Hot Tips" section!)
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 03:37:44 (ZULU)
Been following the thread on reading the wind. Rick, et al, have pretty well summed it up. The best way to learn it is to shoot in it. There is no set pattern, formula, or anything else for the range use that is really usable in the field. In fact, I have RARELY seen a scenario where the wind was the same across the course.
Case in point is the Wren, Oregon, range where I shoot. It's not uncommon to have the wind from on all different points of the compass, and different speeds, at 600, 300, 200, and in the butts. You have to take your best educated SWAG. Dope it, Dial it, and Dump it...
"Hail Mary's"...optional.
Jim Owen's "Reading the Wind" is a superb primer on the subject.
Experience is what is important and, as Marty noted, keeping superb records of shots fired and conditions. Something I don't do as well as I should.
Just my .02 worth...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 04:49:48 (ZULU)
Apache military 7X for almost $300
http://nationalsportscenter.safeshopper.com/19/106.htm?11
and the Steiner BST 8X30 but it is not compact and is $400+
http://www.botachtactical.com/botach/steinmilpolb1.html
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Brian
Brian <landroving@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 04:59:53 (ZULU)
BRITISH WIND TABLE
BASIC WIND TABLE IS BASED ON A 15 MPH FULL VALUE WIND
Range 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
MOA 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Light wind ( 3 mph ) use ¼ 0f basic value.
Medium wind ( 7mph ) use ½ of basic value.
Heavy wind ( 15 mph ) use basic value.
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 05:01:48 (ZULU)
Up here in North Dakota we use the vehicle method of wind detection (see lito's post). One time I bought one of those wind gauge thingys, you know, the one with the little white styrofoam ball in it. The first time I used it the ball got flattened out when it hit the top of the tube. ;) ;)
Seriously, the best advice I can give has aready been given. Observe your surroundings, take your best SWAG and keep lots of notes on what happens.
Take care all!
Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 05:43:50 (ZULU)
Posted earlier (long-winded post, no pun intended) but the PC hiccupped and it got lost.
I'm still out here, back from SHOT, best time of my life in years. Great dinner with the Undude and his lady, and with Mike S., and spent 4 days hangin' with the Israelis. Great batch.
If I could come out with the "Windage Master" that would DOPE AND CORRECT for wind, I would invite all Roster folks to the small Caribbean island that I would buy with the proceeds. And to the State of Nevada, which I would buy for my backyard shooting range.
Have to agree with Rick, Wes, Finger, Marty, and others who recognize wind correction as the art (rather than science) that it is. You saw it in NM, gusts and lulls, 4 different speeds and directions over 600 yards.........God's way of keeping the rifleman humble.
IMHO, nobody yet has a laptop that will cover all this. Watch that savvy glider pilot dope and shoot, and you realize that a fast nickel beats a slow dime every time. No flames directed at absolutely anybody, but if you get a shooter who can read wind, knows his mil hold-offs, and can get his shot off before conditions change, and I'd bet on him before any amount of technological wizardry.
"Dope it, Dial it, Dump it" sounds pretty simplistic, but I've seen too many folks that know what they're doing to "Doubt it."
Pouring a single malt and hunkerin' down,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 06:22:10 (ZULU)
As for alternative wind indicators....if you shoot competition, keep half an eye on everyone else's targets. If you see everyone else getting blown out to the 8 and 9 rings, make sure it jives with your own wind call. If not, you are "behind the wind" (AMU term) and your shot will be a waste. You gotta stay "ahead of the wind" and not dally on the gun. Which brings up another point. In competition, shoot fast. The wind will have less time to change on you and you will see it when it does.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
AL, - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 06:49:55 (ZULU)
Mr Mitchell,
It seems that the element of humor embedded in my earlier post didnt make it from my computer to yours. Youre reading a bit much into that post. Allow me to elaborate:
I am one of only two or perhaps three military veterans in an International Studies class as well as a US Foreign Policy class that have about 4o-45 students each. One prof is a retired ambassador and the other is a 12+ year veteran of the Peace Corps. Of course the viewpoints that are shared in their classes lean in generally liberal directions, as they havent had the benefit of other kinds of experience. After one recent discussion about armed conflicts and weapons, I would bet my next paycheck that less than 1/5th of the class has ever seen a gun fired in person, lest fired one themselves.
Many of these other students think that we (the US) should try to win the war on terrorism by sending more food, financial aid and American culture to the countries that are generally "anti-American". You know the old "hearts and minds" deal? They have never heard anything but that so have no other info to work with.
I distribute copies of CDCs "Intel posting" to provide an "alternative" point of view to what is provided in class. What they make of it is up to them. "Hey, check this out - theres some good reading here," is usually all I say. More than a few have inquired further about the articles, in a positive way.
The whole line about, "splitting into two cells and "militarizing" the rest of the fine arts/liberal arts students," was just a vague sarcastic reference to how terrorist cells operate. I guess I will think twice about using any thinly veiled humor on the DR again.
The next time you put your fingers to the keys to toss accusations, look a little closer. You made an awfully big assumption from three sentences.
Regards,
DA
In my opinion, manipulation IS very "American." Capitalism, marketing, politics, the media, corporate culture, religion... and US Foreign Policy to name a few. And I would wager that drugs and crime are a bit more of what is wrong with our society today than manipulation.
DakotaAviator <dakotaaviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Neb, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 07:15:03 (ZULU)
I called Springfield Armory and a very nice lady told me to clean my gas piston and that the hole in the barrel where the gas passed through into the chamber was too dirty to function. I tried to be open minded and told her the gun cycled perfect but told her to have a real pro call me if there was anything I could do to avoid shipping the gun in. One called and left a message saying I probably had a broken trigger pin and to just send in the trigger group. Anybody ever here of this happening to one of these rifles? Am I way out of common sence here thinking that there is NO chance that this is gas piston problem?
Jeffrey L. Baker <sav99fbake@aol.com>
Wintersville, Ohio, U.S.A. - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 10:09:22 (ZULU)
If someone wanted to try to put a fine point on it they could try to get three speed and direction vectors using their intended line of fire as a t-axis, then solve the resulting differential equation for the correction.
That would involve hauling around a hot-rod pocket calculator and the whole process would be awkward. That's the "slow dime". It may be a good way to go for a guy shooting 1,000 yd bench rest.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 13:39:14 (ZULU)
Follow structions or e-mail me for how to remove the trigger assembly. But once removed.
You may be able to spot the problem as the group can be functioned (cocked and trigger pulled to let the hammer fall, watch your fingers) with it out of the rifle. Chances are what ever is causing your trouble whether it be foreign material from outside the rifle or something broke will probably fall out so be where you can find it if the part takes a fall.
You can obtain parts easily for this weapon or maybe even Springfield might have some (sic). But anyway you will likely see the trouble or cure it when you remove the trigger assembly.
Let the storm begin, these rifles are far from bullet prooooof!
God's own gunsmith can't mount a scope that won't move without epoxy or a welding machine involved. They shoot good for a time and then become.....the great American missing machine!
I offer you this. If the Marines could make a Sniper Rifle out of this one, why would they need bolt guns? To complicate matters Springfield Quality has sagged, the last one I saw was plastic stock with a finish so poorly on that I could remove it with my fingernails down to the brown.... they are like 1911's anymore. They need a gunsmith to make them work. This gun has great appeal to us Mericans and I for one would love to have one that works. My dearest friends love them and believe me I've tried! Good luck with finding your trouble!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 14:19:02 (ZULU)
Looking for some info on AR-15s a shooting buddy is building one and wants to know the best barrel length and twist for target shooting. He is looking a DPMS, any ideas would be appreciated. I am no gas gun guy so I need a little help from you experts. Thanks!!!
Wind..
It was put here to keep long range shooters humble!!! I agree with the guys who say that there is not anyway to use computers to read the wind. It would take sensors every few feet for the full distance of the shot and at every elevation of the bullets travel to compute it accuratly. Then it would be constantly changing.
Like one of the guys said, its amazing that we even hit a target at long range when you really stop and watch what the wind is doing. SWAG, it only comes with a lot of experience and a ton of bullets down range.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 14:24:48 (ZULU)
-
I finely found a great starters riffle for "Ruggus Rattus"... I was looking for a Win #69, but they have reached collector's statis now, and clean ones are out of sight.
I was at the range yesterday, and found a mint Winchester #310 (which I had never heard of)... it turns out to be a single shot made by Anschutz for the Winchester name back in the 70's or 80's.
A very nice Anschutz 64 action and barrel, the bolt knob is hollowed out (a very nice touch), and it has a nice classic American stock, good sights, and groved for a scope... all like new for a buck twenty five...
My shooting buddy got his son a riffle, and I'll get one of those semifore targets so the kids will keep interested.
This is his year :))
'lito
CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 14:44:01 (ZULU)
1994 Marine Corps Matches. 300 yard rapid fire. In prep time after much deliberation I decided that I would place on "X" number of minutes left wind. We stand up, load, I check the flags again, throw the handfull of grass... You know, all the shit that makes people think you know what you are doin. Targets come up, I flop down, aim in and the dude to my right fires and his muzzle blast kicks up a bunch of shit and it blows accross my line of sight...ooops..I look up at the flags and sure as shit they've changed! So I hold off and fire. Targets come up for scores and look at all of the groups out to the left. I had held too much and ended up with a group in the black at 3 O'clock but still it was better than most.
Moral of the story is dont get too tied into the high speed shit. Pay attention to your surroundings and use common sense.
Next favorite story is at Camp Robinson, AR. I was running a sniper course and we had the studs at the machinegun range for field firing. It was an 850m x about 300m open range surrounded by low hills on the left with sporadic trees and the rest was bordered by 20-25 foot pines. I took 2 pickups (one at 400m and one at 800m)and starting on the right side of the range I had the drivers pop a HC smoke in a ammo can in the bed and idle accross the range while we watched from the firing line. As the trucks moved across the range, the smoke was pretty much going straight up. All of a sudden the smoke out of the truck at 400m layed down flat going to the right. Nobody caught the mirage shift, trees moving or anything, it just laid down. One of the studs asked, "What happens when that happens?" My answer after 20 years of doing this shit was, "You miss".
Sometimes you just can't get on it and the Hawk wins.
Out here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 15:09:55 (ZULU)
OK my short course on wind for those that care to read.
I look for the wind at two or three locations depending on distance.
I agree reading it is an art but science still applies to the outcome
When I see the wind, I try and figure out several things
1. Whats the strongest wind
2. Which wind effects the round longer
3. Do the winds cancel each other out or partially cancel each other out?
I like this concept
If the winds are equal and opposite I think of things this way If you leave your driveway and make a wrong turn you will be off farther at the end of your drive than if you made the wrong turn two blocks from your destination. Thats how I look at wind.
Now the part most dont want to do. Go out and shoot in the wind and learn. No chart or majic to get good at it. Just practice and more practice. Then do the Dope It Dial It Dump It.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 15:44:18 (ZULU)
Thanks,
Tyson
Tyson <tbone40x@aol.com>
Austin, TX, - Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 15:50:04 (ZULU)
Sand Sock.
supplies needed:
1- HD sock (green if you got it)
1- bag of plastic stuffing beads from the local craft shop...tell them you are making beenie babies and you need stuffing material
1- set of pantyhose, ask wife or girlfriend, they all seem to have a ruined pair they are willing to part with.
directions.
-Cut foot out of pantyhose, leave enough length to tie a not, approx 12-15 inches
-fill pantyhose foot with beans until a softball sized amount has been added.
-tie a knot
-stick in sock
-tie a knot in sock..
Credit - learned this from Rod Ryan and Gooch while at Storm Mountain
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 16:09:17 (ZULU)
Is there anyone who has had any experience using the Swarovski CT-85, CT-75 or CTC collapsible telescopes as spotting scopes? Or can someone direct me to a review article (any kind of review article)?
Best,
Robin Bhatty
Robin Bhatty <pike2bishop@cs.com>
- Thursday, February 21, 2002, at 16:10:52 (ZULU)
One aspect of the discussion that brings back memories is how representative the wind at the shooter is versus average along the bullet/shell flight path and the exposure time required to induce significant angular velocity change. Our M1A1 tanks had gyroscopic stabilization, a ballistic computer, laser rangefinder, and a crosswind sensor on the back of the turret. Could get first round hits on the move out to 2 miles. The designers obviously felt some cro