February 2001

ANDY,(Kevins Son)
MOM TOLD YOU TOO?????? WAY COOL DUDE!
 

chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 01:27:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.46)

My AR has a 24" 1 in 8 twist Wilson bull barrel. It shoots .75 inch
5 shot groups at 100 yards at the moment with Black hills 68GR reloads
and it's not even broken in yet (70 rounds through the barrel).

So I'm pretty excited about what it might do with some good handloads. I bought 200 69GR Sierra matchkings to get started with and 1000 pieces of processed Lake City 1x brass. What brand/type of powder
would you guys recommend for loading this ammo? What kind/brand of
primers would you recommend also? Are benchrest primers what I need
to be using?

Also, should I go to the trouble of seating the bullet just off the
lands or just load it to max magazine length?

Thanks for your help,
J.T.
J.T. Naylor <jtnaylor@flash.net>
Litle Rock, AR, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 01:48:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.64.2.142)

Anyone have any hints on dyeing an overwhite USG smock? Have tried cold and hot liquid dyes to no avail. Fabric paint is next. I know Marines at Q used to color them but I (STUPID!!!!) never stopped to ask. Thanks guys.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 01:53:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.204.196)

Re: CWD, BSE, etc. I wish I had something good to say. Unless some very ulikely theories of transmission/cause that don't involve prions pan out everyone should be very concerned. Very.

Chris
Chris <cweinbeck@hotmail.com>
Westford, Massachusetts, uSA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 02:30:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.181.148.30)

Kevin – Agree, perp was definitely from the shallow end of the gene pool. Family tree is probably a telephone pole.

Andy (Kevin’s son) – You will be surprised at the number of people that really do not know what it sounds like when a firearm goes off. There was no reaction from the rest of the officers, thus he did not feel threatened. Only confused and the stress level would have added to that confusion.

Bill – Hate to tell you this but in 1889 it was MUCH tamer then it is now, remember that an armed society is a VERY polite society.

Well end for now, Hold Hard guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 02:44:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.178)

Larry, your little Model 7 should be dang near 3/4 out of the box. My 7mm-08 best group at 100 was a little less than 5/8" with 20 factory rounds through it. I haven't even bothered to keep shooting for breakin. Only use it for Bambi's and they don't know the difference. Good scopes would be a 2.5-8 VXIII or a standard 3-9 VXII Loopy. Sight in at 2 1/2" high at 100 and you're good to 300.

Anyone agree that the Survival Show on the History Channel just isn't very interesting?

Glad I don't spar anymore, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 03:03:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.230)

My favorite has so far has been Hodgdon's Benchmark. It is very similar to Varget but has much smaller grains that load well into the 223 case and meter well also. The Varget is larger volumetrically and can require a compressed load. Benchmark fits nicely even at max charge.

I also am thinking of RL-7, but I haven't researched it enough yet, and besides, Benchmark is $3/pound cheaper where I shop at $16/pound.
 
 
 
 

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 04:30:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

.45-70 question????? anybody know a source for the heavy, flat nosed, FMJ, bullets{I think they are 430 gr.] loaded in the Cor-Bon ammo??

outa here in Y2001 Pete
markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
still laid up and loading like crazy in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 04:35:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.77)

ALAN,
While I'm on the musical theme, I have to admit that your comment re the Brits really brought to mind several images from the Wall... need to change out the CDs for the commute, put some more Floyd in...

Re PRIONS,
Being a "rock scientist" instead of a doctor-type, I can't add too many intelligent comments... but if any of you are interested, read The Lost World (Jurassic Park Part II)... it didn't get into it in the movies, but sheep and prions played a role in the book-version.

Re new USMC camo,
During the Gulf War, several commanders who ended up with Marines under them started getting PO'ed because all of their own soldiers had name tapes, but the Marines didn't... they were "inconvenienced" by not being able to just look and find out someone's name. Shortly after that is when we had to add nametapes to our utilities ala US Army style. That was when we felt like we were being forced to take steps into assimilation.... At least we still rolled our sleeves differently, and had our distinctive cover....
Anyway...
Most of you are already aware of the stippled German patterns available. My platoon commander, a military history major, really vouched for that patterning, said that it really was supposed to break up outlines easily. To prevent it from blending into one color at a distance, the stipple-shades need to vary in sections... one area of a jacket with more brown stipple, another part with more green, etc.... then at a distance it's like having a few larger stipples. In theory, anyway....

I can't say that I'm particularly fond of the new stuff (from the photo), but I think that it should work better... maybe a little gimmicky, but if it helps even a little, then take what you can get.

All for the moment....
 

Keep 'em in the black.....

-L
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 04:53:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.202)

Hank: where can I score some Benchmark for $16 a pound?!?

Albuquerque: what changed? The yankees moved in, figured out it was nice, and then informed all the "alternative" natural healing kind of folks from Kalifornistan, who moved there as well. I've still got ranching family that are well outside Alb, left Santa Fe for the same reason. The battle cry of the recently relocated is "we didn't do it that way back in X, we need to change this!". BAH!

Bolt: worst fight I've ever been in was with (HA!) my bunkee. But things were "resolved" with the appropriate trip to the Dixie Chicken. Several years later I was best man at his wedding. Maybe that's why I don't fear arguing a point here! LOL

CDC: saw something tonight in a Cabellas catalog you might be interested in. Machined aluminum snap caps for the 12 gauge.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, for which I have a hard time standing, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 05:33:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.172)

Since no one seems to have the answers regarding the type body armor the BG's used and anti-armor SWAT/Sniper SOP, I have another question. Why didn't the cops just run the shooters over with their squad cars? It's not sniping exactly, but that's what I would have done.
 

R-15 AR .223 Handloads:

24.5 gr of R-15, 69 gr SMK, 2.225 OAL = 3/4 MOA (3 shot groups).
 

R-15 .308 Handloads:

42.0 gr R-15, 150 gr SGK, 2.775 OAL = 1/4 MOA and 2650 fps. (3 shot groups fired off sand bags with a 6 1/4 pound 20" Savage Scout. Hard to believe I know, but true nevertheless.) The same rifle is only a
1 1/2 - 2 MOA shooter with other powders tried.

NOTE: Start 10% under and work up slowly.
 

I haven't tried Varget, so can't compare results.

Well, I'm off to bed to dream of Temptation Island Mandy.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 07:25:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.106)

If youinterested, these are my photos during a breaking and sighting in of a Blaser R-93 at RTA Sec.Cent. Bangkok Thailand.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=274270&a=11297593
 
 

SeriL
SerriL <serril_lithy@hotmail.com>
Bangkok, of readiness, the amazing Thailand - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 11:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.151.192.71)

dUNNO about "prions" & sheep, but I saw a pix of 'Lito that was a "pry-off" with sheep. *:-0

Same thing????????????
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
big city, by-gawd, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 12:07:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.56)

I'm going to be in Vegas on business and was considering taking a weekend course at Front Sight.

What's the skinny on this outfit?

Are they "good to go"?

Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 12:35:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Front Sight weekend course: I went to one of the submachine gun shoots they run. It looks like they run their classes like Gunsite runs theirs. Front Sight is Naish Piazza's operation. Years ago we took a couple of classes together. He certainly knows the doctrine. I'd bet that Front Sight will give you good value.

Thank's for the help on the 12 gauge dummies. A guy from this site made me some.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 13:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

LAPD officially put out (and I have spoken to several involved that day) that the bad guys were wearing head to toe soft body armor. Homemade conglomerations with no steel. You know the penetration answer already with this.

It took so long, because until recently LAPD was issued 9mm (limited 45) and buckshot. None of these have the penetrative properties needed for such a situation. The BG's did suffer multiple grazing wounds etc....but not enough to put them down.
The SWAT team was airlifted from their PT training to the scene. That is why you saw some of the guys with the heavy gear wearing gym shorts. No one else had the weaponry needed to do the job.
Due to this event LAPD was going to implement surplus M-16 rifles into their squad cars but this was scaled back for whatever reason. As far as I know, some rifles are now in the shift sgt cars.

As far as engagement for snipers with this type of armor- I will catch you off line. There is something new (actually something old used again!) Not to insult you or anyone, but too many bad guys have access to this stuff. I know you understand.

Oh yeah- a typical scumbag mouthpiece out there is still in the process of suing LAPD as he said they intentionally let one of the robbers bleed to death. Not so, but since when has truth ever stopped a lawyer?
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 13:38:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Bolt- I guess I will take a quick crack at your questions. Gently I reply, good sir.
I would strongly assume that fellow LEO knew the SWAT team was there and had been called out. There is rather a lot of communication that goes on before the SWAT team is called to a scene. Once that is done, I know how hard it is to contact the higher-ups. They are actually busy dealing with political types and getting the resources needed.
Also- the SWAT guys are typically on another radio frequency to avoid radio tieups. There is usually no direct communication between them and the responding officers. Before any of you guys go on about how silly that is, it isn't. It is a good thing. Remeber, the regular radio channels have to handle the regular police business that will continue whether you are on scene or not.

I would also take a stab at the multiple shots. My opinion only- Training to take a single shot, whether sniping or not, is training to fail. Run that bolt right after in case a followup is needed. If the first shot didn't work, hit it again. The same applies with handguns.
The shooter must be aware that sometimes bullets fail, you miss, or there was an intermediate barrier. Don't give up or freeze up. Being prepared to follow up and doing so immediatly can save a bad situation. It did there.....

Kevin- when I get back to my home PC I will email you re that school.
 

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 14:02:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 15:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

My local shootin' shop has it for $16.95 a pound with most other powders at $19.95 a pound. I buy all I can find there.

Most gun shows also have Benchmark at $16 a pound. I once scored 3 jugs at $13.50 a pound. I can routinely get most powders at $13.95 to $17.95/pound at gun shows, which we have 1-2 a month.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 16:47:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

I tried to send you e-mail, but it bounced. Please contact me, I will be travelling to Bangkok and would like to contact you.
 

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 16:55:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

Thanks for the info. I wondered if it was true when someone back a few days ago said the BG's had been wearing steel plates. Heck, you can shoot clear through our steel plate pistol targets with a pip-squeak 30-30. And boy are they heavy. You wouldn't be doing any jogging with those baby's on, that's for sure!

Tests I did for our department years ago proved that 12 ga buckshot wouldn't usually penetrate car doors. MP5 9mm's would penetrate into a car's interior, but didn't have much power left. Only FMJ high power rifle bullets were a sure thing on BG's inside cars.

I realize the semi-auto vs bolt-action sniper rifle topic has already been gone over a few times. But let's face it, in the city a slightly less precise semi-auto would probably be a lot more all-around usefull than a bolt gun. At least IMHO it would. Think about it. If you could only have one rifle for Sniper use in the city, what would it be?

M-16's:

The 1300 man S.O. back in the county I worked in got 500 M-16's from the US Government a couple of years ago. I can't imagine how they could ever need that many, but they have them. I would guess they stay in the arms room most of the time like in LA, but don't know for sure. I seriously doubt that the county would pay to have 1300 deputies trained with M-16's.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 17:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.99)

Hank: a gunshow twice a month?! WOW! We get 3 or so PER YEAR within 60 miles, and they S-U-C-K bad. No powder, but all the jerky, knives, and cheap chi-com 10 round blasters you could ask for!

Mike: the magnum 45 can indeed be a weapon if it's hurled. Note, I'm saying that the BOTTLE is being hurled. Hurling from the CONTENTS is considered normal and lawful (though messy). I'm afraid that without hurling the bottle, the only way it's an arrestable offense is if your municipality has enacted "good taste" legislation ;-)

Seems I'm not as far from crime as I had hoped. The first murder in many years was deposited on my road to work yesterday. Now when people ask why I carry a battle carbine in the truck, and a pistol all the time, I have a reference to cite. Much too bad.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 18:24:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Bravo, I applied for a Chief of Police position at a fairly big, high crime area college some time back. I didn't get the job because I had too much felony case experience and not enough PR work. Bottom line: Universities don't want "real" cops, they want baby-sitters.

Why in the world would Kent State cops, or any other campus cops "need" M-16's anyway???
 
 

Militarization of the Police:

In my personal opinion the police have already been over-militarized. America doesn't "need" or want machinegun-toting combat troops patrolling the streets or kicking in doors in the middle of the night. When exceptional situations arise that REQUIRE combat troops, call out SWAT. Otherwise, nobody wants to see them on the street, including this old SWAT cop.

I traveled through Communist East Germany while in the military and still get a bad feeling thinking about all the machinegun-toting commie cops I saw there. We damn sure don't need or want that kind of thing here.
Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 18:57:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.112)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 20:38:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Sorry to hear about your Dad.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Freezing in the Dark, Kalifornia, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 21:04:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.22.22.2)

Lemay- I thought the new USMC camo looks like german flectar myself...

Flash- one rifle for Sniper use- Still a Nor-Cal bolt action. One rifle for everything....you got me. A Semi would get it (my flavor of M-16).
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 23:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.154)

Wild Bill: I have to disagree with you my friend (like what's new?). If these campus cops were needing M-16's for "off campus threats", then the local police department and their swat team are the correct answer. The campus cops have neither the jurisdiction nor the authority to leave campus. As for a M-16 being the key to Columbine, I again say nay. Allowing the legal holders of concealled pistol permits to carry would be a better solution. If you're proposing that a policeman with a M-16 be stationed in every highschool for "just such an emergency", we're dangerously close to seeing one on every street corner similarly. That, and having to quarter these troops, were a large part of the revolutionary war. When cops can be called upon to fight foreign wars, then they should carry M-16's. Elsewise, that should be the sole dominion of the special ops (SWAT) guys. At the outside, selected officers (duty sargents for instance) with MUCHO training, and understanding of when to use it IN EMERGENCIES.

Mike: I'll go with your AR base pick for urban stuff, but for the "do it all" rifle, the best bet in town, IN MY OPINION, is still the '14/21/25. But that's probably an artifact of my area. If it weren't so wide open, a carbine would probably be as good. Accuracy of a PSS, reliability of a rock, caliber that is under no question, and that wonderful 20 round mag for "just in case". After all, you never know when that girlscout jambouree will be overrun by the hottentots ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, modeled after soviet Georgia, USA - Thursday, February 01, 2001 at 23:40:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

For years Andy and I've been driving by this one long flat field with a hill at the end saying, "Man, what a great place to shoot." I wasn't sure who owned the ground so it ment a trip to the County Tax Office to find out etc.
I kept procrastinating until last week. I was at the DMV anyway so I stopped in and got the name and address of the farmer that owns the ground.
I wrote him a letter asking him to please consider giving us permission to shoot our rifles on his property.
I just talked to him on the phone and he said, "Hell yes, your welcome to pick out any spot that suits you."

WoooooHoooooo!!!

I checked the USGS and it's a little over 1,200 yards.

To top it off it's less than a mile from my front door.

It don't get much better than this guys.

Time to buy a couple "Iron Maidens" and get to work.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 00:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.157)

Yeah Mike T. look that up. I may have imagined the armour plates I thought I saw.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 00:40:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

So- the guys on the spot need the weapons and training to respond. I used to be a kind of training snob on this issue, but then I was asked
"What if it was YOUR kids in that school?" I changed my mind due to that one single statement. Perspective. Not to say Bravo is wrong on this either- there is no need to have Joe Cop carrying this out on a campus walking beat, but that is a matter of good judgement. Should it be available and quickly-YES. Do we need to see our guys with this stuff 24/7-No.
Damn- I am starting to sound like Flash now....a real Cop A saurus. HA!

Camo question on barrels: For winter snow, I have left my barrel clean but have some white med tape ready to be wrapped on. As long as I don't tape the barrel to the stock, I should not have any accuraccy problems...but doesn't that still change the harmonics/whip/etc?
Or will I only notice an effect at long range?
Would having a fluted barrel taped make a difference?

Anyone have a better winter camo idea? Other than paint.

Thanks dudes
Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 01:06:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 01:12:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Wild Bill: the difference is that when I take my family out to that Hawiian restaurant in the airport, I'm carrying. When I go to the local university, I'm carrying. Same for the credit union, bank, library, and bar. LEGALLY, and concealled. I think that's plenty deterrent, if a large portion of society does the same, and is not prohibited from doing such as Colorado does. Better folks than I have proclaimed the scattergun sufficient for close quarters drills, I think that Columbine would qualify, and if I understand correctly, these are standard equipment in cruisers across the country. Lastly, if needed, as I stated before, having the shift duty officers armed with rifles is realistic and acceptable by me. As for federal places, since they treat us as peasantry subjects, it's not surprising that they want to "take care of us" as the same. As for private institutions, that's property rights, they can do as they please.

Mike: Yup, and I'm not alone. Seems that the local police (Sheriff and town police) have purchased M-14's for duty use here as well. Some asked specifically for semi only, some asked for rock and roll (S-T-U-P-I-D), some asked for one and got the other. I know the guy that transferred them. I don't like the fact that they carry them, but live with the idea that they couldn't hit squat with that thing kicked into auto! Not to mention the fact that they don't practice with them.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, where we ask "are we free?", USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 01:37:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.211)

Sorry Steve, I've just noticed that my e-mail was out of date.
Please contact me using this temp mail address...(my girl)
jirateel@hotmail.com

SerriL@Bangkok
SerriL <jirateel@hotmail.com>
Exciting BKK, Thailand - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 02:02:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.151.192.49)

Guys don’t fall into the trap of seeing the schools going into the crapper. The latest figures I believe show that even with the school hits it was a safer school year. Was it safer at Columbine, no, but it was not a national trend, only a national reporters’ trend. Do we need M16s everywhere, hell NO! Do we need access under controlled circumstances yes.

Best all round SWAT urban sniper rifle is the M16. NOT the M4 or variants, but a flat topped M16 that will reach out and touch as well as fire rapidly for the very rare occasion it is needed. Even the LA shoot out could have been handled with a bolt gun since there were only two and NOT an army. Spray and pray is a rookies technique while “precision” “discriminatory” rifle fire is our realm. As I tell my students, as funny as it is to cap a guy in the woods squatting for his early morning it does nothing to hasten the end of the mission. Two BGs, equals two to four shoots. Let the BGs spray and miss, we take aim and knock their d**ks stiff. Do not let all the fire going on influence your shooting. Again the need for an observer is paramount when deploying, it permits observation and the increase in fire power when needed. This can be important in a target enrich environment. :-)

Bravo - The thought of anyone having a full auto M14 on the street scares the hell ut of me! I fired those things years ago and NO ONE could control the suckers with the stock and sling designed for it. With a standard stock they would be a danger to anyone in the area.

Jon - That is a standard target knob and can be bougth at Brownells and other outlets that cater to the cross the3 course shooter. They make it alot easier to do rapid fires.

Well rambled more that enough, will end for now.

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 02:16:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.157)

Back home and rested after that trip to Spokane. Now I can give a little time to the list...

Militarization of Police: Don't like the trend, but saw it headed that way 20+ years ago when military guys got preference and were wanted by LE. In some agencies, it's still that way. Although losing ground.

Seems a lot of the younger types are looking at the police AS THE MILITARY in many ways. Blame Miami vice, Hill Street Blues, etc.
Like anything they are not based in reality, but it's the youngun's only frame of reference. The military does the same type of recruiting. Showing the glamorous side and never the cold, wet, long hours, support, etc. that goes to make those events happen.

Military and police are too different in missions and techniques. The majority of the time they should NEVER be mixed, IMHO.

Guarding the Schools: I don't like armed guards in schools. Not enough training, no commitment, etc. Do you want Barney Fife guarding your children? Aside from that and the political considerations of the "kinder gentler folk" I like the Isreali solution. ARM THE STAFF!
Require that they train to certain standards and are able to "repell boarders" if need be...
If they don't want to do that then they shouldn't be allowed to teach.
As screwed up as I think the Isreali's are I think they have a great idea in this one...

Will fade into the foliage and don my nomex underwear...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 02:18:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.93)

Now coming from a military background I don't have a problem arming LE with Carbines or rifles - for the very fact they are more accurate than a shotgun. I would much prefer that the officer faced with a shooting situation have a rifle than a shotgun

As far as number of firearms required - each and ever officer should be trained and issued his/her own individual weapon - in order to insure that it is zeroed and maintained to proper specifications. I had a discussion with local about this issue and found that even the more rifle enthusiast members did not see anything wrong with the gun/car mentality. The idea of shared wpn's is a liability to the officer and the public that he is attempting to protect. While I agree that select fire is not a requirement for patrol officers the need for an accurate and dependible rifle is not. Often ERT/TAC/SWAT teams are delayed enroute, and saying that we should just sit and wait for them is irresponsible.

While not Cop bashing I must bring up a certain hesitance on some members to leap to the assitance of the public the are here to protect. There was an incident in this city where two officers requested assistance, and waited till they had it before the entered a convience store to help the clerk who was being beaten by a thug armed with a baseball bat. WTF - the Glock 22, ASP, Pepper Spray, or Remington 870 that they had available was not enough for two of them to overcome a mid 20's punk?

Maybe the airborne 'jab and go' mentality is not always condusive to LE work, butI feel that any action is better than none.
 

I had a point here but forgot -

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 02:25:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Kevin of the GWN: isn't that the purpose of slugs? My former partner could put a Breneke Rotweil 12 gauge sabot slug in a siloughet out to 200 yds. That's a feat that I thought was impossible until I saw it. At Front Sight I saw people using them at range, with good results also.

Master Rick: ditto on the full auto. I was told "yeah, well I can hold it", and a bet was made. I didn't collect, but someone learned that it wasn't a "magic rifle" (not me!). I've got a great story along these lines from a friend who got the recomendo and went to Anapolis. Quite funny! On the wind flags, I know you're right. Now for the lame excuse ;-) There's no ground vegitation out where I shoot, and the trees are all evergreen around me. The wind can blow 40 MPH and never show anything. That's why I limit myself to 600 yards, I can't gauge well beyond that.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, asking "are we free?", USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 03:06:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.208)

Spyder
Denney <neaced@pr.erau.edu>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 03:10:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.189.92)

I do know rifled barrels in shotguns really screw up the buckshot pattern. We tried the sabot slugs with normal barrels, the results were definatly not worth switching over. This was several years ago though, has the technology on the sabots changed to allow use through normal barrels?

There are definate uses for buckshot and other specialty rounds that the normal barrels fire, so switching to a rifled barrel is not a good choice for most LE assignments.
 

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 03:21:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Kevin of the GWN Do you know the range of the 870 shotgun engagement you posted about???At 30 to 35 ysds. all of the Vang comp bbls. I've seen will plant afull charge of buck on target.. Some a bit farther...A properly set up 870 [proper choke and sights] is more affective than many think...Many PDs though are unwilling to invest the $s to upgrade....And, with just good sights most shotguns will shoot slugs better than many think...If the range was over 20 yds and the 870 was issue, IMHO it sounds like

it was a slug situation to me...TRaining??
 

On another note;;; How about the SanFrancisco lady who was killed by the neighbors dogs. A J-frame or mini Glock would have been handy, huh??[or anything else for that matter]
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
still laid up and running out of stuff to load for in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 04:26:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.55)

outa here agin'
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
can't type in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 04:55:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.69)

(I hope HTML works here)
Gun Shows
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 05:21:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.211.242.190)

Slugs and further dist SG engagment -I understand what your saying about the upgraded guns but... guys were are still missing the point these are car guns, beat up by different guys everyday. How can you realistically take a shot with any gun that you cannot guarantee you know were the rounds are going. Do you pattern every gun you could get? and keep example tgt's in the car to remind you where the gun you got today shoots (at least the last time you shot it).

With a rifle one rd, and only one rd shoulda/coulda have been discharged. A center of mass hit would have put the tgt down - then the officer could have immediately determined whether he had hit - instead of sitting outside waiting for ERT, (and then Calgary TAC and K9) trying to communicate with a 'hostage taker'.
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 06:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

LeMay OUT
 

LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 13:38:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

Kevin of the GWN...Sounds like a CAR with a dot scope coulda/ shoulda done a lot better job than a shotgun...Still, one would have to know that the zero was good and not fouled up by another shift.. Seems like a good argument for each officer being issued/maintaining/training with a weapon assigned only to them...once again, budget of the Dept would come into play. If the Dept. would allow the use of personnally owned weapons the solution would be simple. IF the officers would come off the cash they could have way more confidence in the weapon and, assuming good training and practice
,their ability to use it...
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@ hardynet.com>
up & at'em and still laid up in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 13:47:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.151)

I have good luck with 24.6gr of Varget under a 69grMK. I have a CLE upper with 1 in 8 Krieger barrel.
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 14:02:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

On semi auto sniper rifles for Urban use. I also like the AR15, with soft point ammo. For the sniper role I will take the full 20" model over a 14 or 16" M4. When I talk of M4 I talk about it in the support CQB role, not as a sniper type weapon.

On reloading 223. If you getting such good groups from Black Hil 68 grain stuff why change? That stuff is already cheap. Next is why change from the 68 grain Hornady bullet to the 69 Sierra. I see no difference in real world BC between them and the Hornady's are working for you. On powders for the 68's I like WW748 and for 80's I will go with Varget.

On spotters role. The spotter is not there to pick his nose. He should be checking out the bullet path for obstacles. You have enough to think of with the stress of the event.

Flash, at first I wondered if you were really a former cop, but hell man you are as obnoxious as I am. You must be. Now I mean that in fun so dont get the feathers ruffled. Just from what I have read of yours I know you would not be the ideal Campus C.O.P.. Probably in everyones best interest that you did not get the C.O.P. job. Would like to share some beers and shoot the poop some time.

Onto the fun things. I have taken vacation time for the Sniper Meet at Storm Mountain this year. I now need to arrainge getting there, a place to stay and how to pay for it. LOL Looking forward to being back on the mountain. I have the special eye drops for Rick, so we can all pass the stalking phase.

Pete, Pablito and all I hope to see you and all the others soon. Hardest decision will be what rifle to shoot.

Pablito, I picked up a Swarovski built scope for Barrett. The optics are super clear. It has 120 moa adjustment. Have you tried one.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 15:15:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Budget $ - some how I think one gun/man is quite cheap in comparison to a wrongful death action /or personal injury suit. I'd like to think my life worth that extra .20 in tax increase to buy new toys.
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 15:28:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

I don't think the weapon is really the issue here. If you can develop criteria both in maturity and training, to assess whether a police officer is capable of effectively and responsibly utilizing a tool to achieve his assigned mission "to protect and serve", then BUY THE TOOL.

Same with the public, it's not the right to bear arms, it's the ability to responsibly bear arms that would make the difference at a Columbine type event.

I applaud my local police department and county Tactical team for their response to Columbine... They changed their training and tactics, nothing else. If the local PD came back and said they needed M16s to handle two untrained kids with cheap pistols, and they had the training plan in place to handle the tool, I would say "BUY IT".

just my opinion, for what it's worth.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 15:54:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

There already are armed guards in many schools. There was one in Collumbine. But since he was more of an baby-sitter type than an aggressive street cop he didn't do any good.

Arm school staffs? You've got to be kidding? Most of the teachers I know can't keep order in their classrooms let alone teach, and you want to arm them? Heck, even a lot of the cops where I worked were none too good with guns. That's why our basement pistol range had bullet holes and bullet skid marks all over the ceiling, walls and even the dividers between shooting positions!

I almost got shot twice INSIDE the police department by cops firing off shots accidently. Another cop did get shot in the butt when his back-up derringer fell out of his pocket in the jon! Maybe some of you guys haven't been involved enough with REAL-WORLD gun and crime control people of the incompetent variety? Which is about 99% of the general public, most especially school teachers, and more than a few cops.

Speaking as a "cop-a-saurus" (thanks a lot Mike T!), we not only didn't wear body armor back in the "olde days", we didn't wait around outside with our thumbs up our butts while innocents were getting killed inside, like SWAT did in Collumbine. When the SHTF the first 2-3 guys to arrive on the scene just kicked in the doors and went in. Anybody shooting was taken out, survivors were locked up. And we didn't fool around talking about it either. We just did it and thought nothing of it. We didn't know cops were supposed to need machineguns, or a black-suited army, just to take down one or two armed BG's. Any cop thinking that back then would have been laughed off the job.

That's why some of us "old guys" think armored-up, machinegun-toting, black-suited modern SWAT cops are a wee bit sissyfied. Here they are damn near bullet proof and yet still reluctant to just go in and take the BG's out. And I say this having been in several shooting situations myself. Maybe some of you modern SWAT guys can explain it to me?

That's the main reason my old SWAT team was never called out (except for riot control). Because the first street cops to the scene always took care of armed BG situations immediately and never did back off and call for SWAT.

I put the blame for what some of us old cops call the "modern sissy-cop syndrome" on the police survival movement that has pervaded (and perverted) LE for quite a few years now. The result is that modern cops are so overly concerned with their own safety that they sometimes don't get the job done, like in Collumbine. Or, just as bad, they shoot up unarmed innocent citizens 40-some times because they are scared of BG's, like in NY.
 

Full-auto M14's:

When I was TDY to an AMU Pistol Team the range next to us was used by the AMU Rifle Team. Even those guys, who shot all day long, 5-6 days a week, couldn't hit Sh*t with M-14's on full auto because M-14's recoil too much for their weight and jump around all over the place. Maybe that's where the term "rock n roll" originated?
 

Hunkered down awaiting incoming......
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 16:05:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.67)

Damn good move.
How far is Clinton springs from Long Island/Connecticut shore line area... can you bring a friend... can the friend bring a 50 Cal ;)))

Undude...
On the spotters role, don't forget, besides watching for a clear path, and ranging, etc... thay have to tote the cooler, and the 50 cal... ask Bravo! ;))

I'm picking up the 300WM this coming week, and should have it finished soon... and the dealer has my .50 cal (he's holding it for ransom... won't take a post dated check for November, and I'm poor again [as usual] ;)... If I get it all together, I'll bring it to the weekend shoot at Storm... are you coming?

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 16:11:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.17)

Hey UNDUDE! You gonna send me that item we discussed? Oh and I heard Storm is going to set up metal detectors to assist them in busting you guys. Your ginsu knive metal knees should set them puppies off quite a distance away! LOL..
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 16:11:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 16:52:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

On LE inaction - there are time for action and time for intel. We innocents are dying it is a time for action
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 16:57:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 17:18:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

It was remarkably brave. I would have crapped my pants in the same situation.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 17:32:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Flash.... Back in the Jurassic Age (I sound like my Dad) - when I tried my hand at an LE career (found out I wasn't a 'team player' and a lousy politician) all we had for duty weapons were S&W Mod. 10's in .38 Special or Mod. 19 .357's (if REAL lucky) and an ol' Ithaca 37 in the rack (I still have one) - we still got the job done! Please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that modern LE shouldn't be able to take advantage of the advances of moders weapons and tactics - but what the f*** happened between then and now? Is it the lawyers and the judges? Maybe the prosecutors too? In this county we have a DA that couldn't get a conviction on 2 guys stabbing an unarmed man to death in a fight when the jury came back with self defense. I know - we need a new DA. What I'm trying to say is that while LE has alot more to go up against in this day and age, I strongly believe that an armed citizenry along with LEO's that wouldn't be constrained from acting immediately is at least part of the solution.

Bravo.... untrained LE with full-auto M14's? "They can't hit squat". Trouble is that they will hit everything but "squat". *;0
BTW - I'm looking for a new cronograph. Bravo, I understand that you have an Oehler 35. TITS or not? Printer option worth it? I'm thinking not, but don't know for certain. Feedback appreciated.

Wes.... "screwed-up" Israeli's"? I'm probably one of the LAST people that could be called a Zionist, but how do you think that you - and we as a nation would be if we had been surrounded by enemies whose avowed
purpose in life was to destroy us - for the last 53 years?
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 18:08:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.100)

On M-14's and driving close to unfriendly AK's. It's my statement that the M-14 can't be controlled effectively in auto, even by a well trained troop. The Army tried to make it a LMG, and it didn't work. It is what it is, no need to make it what it isn't. I once got into a friendly debate about such things, and stated that auto fire isn't the answer, and specifically the AK isn't the best on earth. So the question came "so if you wanted something to kill lots of people quickly with, what would you use?". My smart-assed answer "a Chev corvette, drive it through a mall, your choice of auto or standard". HA! But it does bring up a serious side: running down an unfriendly AK shooter with a pickup would be QED I would assume. Seen too many "accidents" not to think of a car as a loaded and deadly weapon.

Two easy questions please!
My preferred Colt 20 round AR mags are getting "tired". They still feed 100%, but are now to the point where some are failing to lock the bolt back. I won't trade off followers, these solid aluminum jobs are GREAT, and in really good condition. What I need, I think, is new springs. So are Bushmaster replacement mag springs good 'nuff, or is a call to Woolf Spring in order?
Secondly, I have a C of Rainier 200 grain JHP's in 45 cal, they look like good bullets! Anyone have any experience with them? I'm going to load these up and see how they shoot, but don't know yet. If they're good in the terminal ballistics department, I'll switch to them completely. At the prices they're asking, I can shoot what I carry and carry what I shoot..... something I'm vastly in favor of. But I don't want to carry a turkey while thinking it's an eagle. Any good statements, anyone tried these?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Are we free, or not to be free, THAT is the question, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 19:08:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Perfect weapon...........M25,......... 3 shot burst.........(:

Semi capable......

Had a youngster, several years ago, bought a S A , he worked for a local range, (pistol), and called me up..........seems he had a slight problem........

His S A would empty the mag, if he didn't let off the trigger....
I went ot the range, and tried it out, sure enough, the trigger sear engagement was set improperly from da' factory.

With 3 rounds in the rifle ALL would go into the same hole at 25 yards, and 0 muzzle climb.........

The 16 A3, should be as much fun.........(:

Alas, I told the youngun' send er' back, before they send YOU up!!!!!

Alan, you got it brother.......Everytime I see a bunch of armed anybodies, standing around on street coeners, it gives me the willy's.....

If, and when it ever came to that here, I'd just soon be dead and gone..............):

Two Shoes
Land of the Free, and home of the depraved(Some!!)
 

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 19:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.32)

John
John Williman <jwilliman@hotmail.com>
York, PA, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 19:38:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.137.113.23)

Mike Lau; We've had complaints of this nature before. Mike gets a little lapse about contacting his contractee's at times. Contact him by phone if you can. You're probably OK. He doesn't mean to leave you hanging or at least that's been the past.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 19:44:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Twentyfive years ago they issued M14E2s? to Ranger students for use as Squad Automatic Weapons. Sure beat the heck out of humping a '60. Never had any control problems firing blanks. (I know.)

I never fired live ammunition from one but my guess is that off the bipod with a tight grip and short bursts you could make the thing hit. But it gets really hot, really quick.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 22:19:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Guys,
Some piece of shit got past security and entered a elementary school in York Pennsylvania today about noon with a machette. Three teachers and six little kids were injured. The three teachers, all female jumped the S.O.B. and overpowered him long enough for the police to get there. But they paid the price to save the kids. One of the teachers was airlifted to Johns Hopkins for surgery, ones still in york hospital and the other was released.
Thank God the bastard didn't have a gun or it could have been far worse. Lets see if it makes national news.
Bravo to those three brave women, they should be given a medal.
And I guess we all agree what should be done with the perp.
My wifes a teacher and I have a four year old, so you know what I think!

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Friday, February 02, 2001 at 23:31:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.41.35.107)

Just purchased a Win M-70 Black Shadow 7mm Rem Mag w/ a Simmons 6.5-20X40 scope butler caps and a harris LM bipod. I took an hour to look around this site and only found one bit of info on this gun(the rem 700 using its trigger guard..). I was told these were almost identical but from the looks of it from this site have I made a mistake purchasing this and not a Rem 700? It looked like it would make a great sniper/elk gun. THnx.
Dugedug <dugedug@hotmail.com>
MN, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 00:06:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.163.18.176)

---

Bravo & Terry..... thanks for the info. Now all I gotta do is to choose which 35 (and talk the 'ol lady into buying it for my B-day).

Danny..... now we must have "Edged Weapons Control"! And "Corvette Control" for the likes of Bravo;-))))

Just read an ad in todays classified - "FN-FAL 308, $650. Pre-ban. XXX-XXXX days. XXX-XXXX eves." Has to be too good to be true. MUST GO CHECK THIS OUT!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 00:23:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.166)

---

Wes Howe;
Require teachers to be armed?Gifted teachers are few and far between,adequate teachers are hard to find and you would narrow that field additionally by requiring that they subscribe to a doctrine of arms?I would much rather you put metal detectors at ingress/egress points let the local constabulary sweep the place with dogs randomly and if you want to search my kids backpacks...feel free.I can feel the "thats violating my kids rights" shit coming.My kids don't need guns, knives,or dope to learn and their teachers don't need to be armed to teach.Teachers and students being attacked is a travesty but arming teachers carte blanche is ludicrous.The Arabs and Jews have been fighting for 2000 years and will continue way beyond the forseeable future.To draw a parallel between what is applicable in Israel and America is simply not accurate.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Tx, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 01:11:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.56)

---

Is there some horrible, national shortage of M118? Im the only B4 in my state still holding out on a guard sniper team and I was just told that we have no ammo for the rest of the year because there " is no M118 availible for the National Guard". Now, should I shut-up and take this as truth, or are my teams getting screwed?
Jon <m21sws@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 01:42:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.37)

---


 
 

James Sweeney,
 
 

7 months? You're still young. I have been waiting over 2 years now, I shit you not. I also have a friend that is a month or two behind me.
 
 

Terry what the hell?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

TR <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 02:24:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.166)

---

Bruce and all,

Thought that my rather simplistic "solution" to school shootings would come under fire.

Let's see, I've been accused of not "undertanding" the difference between Isreali problems (2K of war) and our own "domestic" school shootings. I've also been accused of being anti-semetic...I won't even go there. There is more respect in my bones for the Isreali people than any other. Bruce you said it well. They have been at war for 2,000 years and as a nation for 53...that says something. My previous comment was directed at some of the screw ups myself and others have witnessed. Not to the people as a whole. No one is perfect...

Near as I can tell NO ONE has offered a 100% solution. Simply because there isn't one. Not in this or any other scenario.

You want to know the REAL issue? NO ONE WANTS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for the safety of our children. The 80% of the teachers out there don't give a shit about the kids saftey and wouldn't accept the repsonsibility for it. What's worse, is that when a problem is identified it's allowed to stay and fester. Whether it's an unbalanced kid or a gang presence. NO ONE wants to violate the "rights and due process" of the the little turds. In case you haven't noticed the kids ARE the problem. How about the other kids (the good ones) rights?

It's about time the people we entrust to teach our children suck it up and take responsibility. In my day they not only taught the three R's, but instilled values, as well.

So far we have said that guards are bullet magnets, response teams take to long...from where I sit that only gives one option. The staff.
Unfortunately, most of these liberal, no guts folks that couldn't and wouldn't handle the responsibility...whether it's a gun or teaching values. They have my disdain. The other percentage that is out there trying to make it work HAVE my respect.

In case you haven't figured it out, It's the children that's the problem. There's no difference between an Islamic Terrorist and a teen or gang with a gun. They deserve to be terminated as the threat they are...then we should ask the parents what the hell they were doing!

Let's not let this thread get out of hand. If we want let's take it off line and not waste valuable space on the Sniper Country pages.
My home number is: 541-453-4054 for any that care to call on this. As far as I'm concerned it's a dead issue until we come up with an option that will work. Believe I have...

Ask me how I really feel...

Semper Fi,

Wes
 

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 02:36:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.123)

---

Mictac

For winter weapon cammo try white medical tape. Works great and leaves no sticky stuff on weapon. Best if you can get it free at work.
Allan <Falshooter42@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 02:38:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.130.4.100)

---

Bruce: you've got a good 6th sense. "Metal detectors at ingress/egress points let the local constabulary sweep the place with dogs randomly and if you want to search my kids backpacks...feel free." Hmmmm. Let's make "backpacks" more generic, into "personal belongings". They already have a place like this, it's called *PRISON*. Now, what do you think it'll condition your kids to accept? "Well, they're ransacking our home without a warrant, but they used to search our stuff in school, must be all right". Do you think they teach the constitution at public schools? I won't even go into the weapons stuff. That's why I advocated *ALLOWING* teachers and other reasonable adults to carry. Now how do you think those women who took down the machete guy feel on concealled carry in school? I lived through the huge D/FW highschools "back when", and my kid won't ever see the inside of one. But it's common for patriots to want to homeschool. If you're worried about the "gifted teachers" taking exception to things, I'd say the first place to steer the conversation away from is the communist manefesto. There's a reason for that. Let's not force them to be members of armed society (a polite society), but let's mandate that they work in accord with the communist manefesto. Yeah, that makes sense.

Alan: I've seen plenty of FAL's that would be way overpriced at that. The name "Century" was on most of them. Seems the L1A1 kits that came into the country weren't nearly as nice as the StG kits. Guess the Brits use up rifles before getting rid of them more than the Austrians.

Andy's Dad: yup, the E2's could be held for 2 or 3 rounds. Long strings are right out. Thus what Bro Two Shoes said, especially noting the close range. Long bursts at any approximation of normal range isn't. The E2 was the next evolutionary step, but didn't count for nada.

Wild Bill: I'll give you the AK on points, but this is the way I look at it: I gave the Uzi a try, and decided a pistol was better for me. I used to play regularly with a guy that shot an auto AK. We had a "just us" competition, I'll take the M-14 over it. To each his own though. On your earlier comment: I may be guilty of "guarding with great jealousy my liberties", but that's what is recommended. When we talk about a militarized police, and then step up the police coverage to include "stations" of everywhere about, isn't that a "police state"? Or is that "martial law"? Likely both. I'd opt for neither. I'd also wager that if teachers could/would carry leagally, there would be a different breed of teacher looking to be hired. My mother, who just happened to retire yesterday, had her back broken by one of these kids the NEA protected. He got a weeks suspension for that. I guarentee that a middle school teacher doesn't receive compensation enough to warrant not taking decisive action. Besides, the NEA is openly pro-communist.

Mike: Yeah, I don't know how to spell it. All I remember was that it was his "car shotgun", 'cause in Texas, one could have it loaded, whereas a pistol would get you illegally oppressed, loaded or not. It was in riot format, a Mossberg if memory serves. When I badmouthed the range of the scattergun (I was carrying a M1 Carbine at the time, in paratrooper format, also to stay legal), I got an education. I'll admit, for ranges out to 100 yards, I'd rather be hit with that 30 carbine than a sabot 12 gauge slug. Ammo choice wasn't an issue, there was what was in the tube and the side saddle, beyond that, it was a club!

Denney: The swivel is the cats meow. Also, combine that with the notch leg. I've got the S-BRM (swivel, notch legged shorty model), and it you would be hard pressed to talk me out of it. The difference is that the legs deploy under spring pressure rather than retract that way.

So what ever became of the ideology of not caving in or dealing with terrorists?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
gonna go load up some more 9 now, got a shoot tomorrow, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 02:57:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.135)

---

Howdy,
I need some information on a Savage Tactical in .308. I have put it into a Choate Ultimate Sniper Stock, and shot it quite a bit. It shoots very well, but I'm not sure if I should rebarrel it. I wan to know if the 24" barrel will work well out to 1000 yards. I would also like to know if I should trade it in on a Remington?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike <killare@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 03:27:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.50.72)

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James Sweeney

Afriend of mine had a hell of a time getting his TBA rifle..Finally threatened to file mail fraud charges and the rifle arrived in relative short order....Prior to that it was one excuse after another for way over ayear...
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
LOading varmint ammo in a cast in ths Alleghenies, WV, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 03:27:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.25)

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Howdy,
I would like some advice about a Winchester M70 Classic Laredo in .300 Win Mag. I dropped it into a Choate UVS, and I just can't get it to shoot the way I want it to. There is also a problem with feeding, the rounds wont stay in the mag, they just keep popping out. I've been told that there is a box that came with the rifle, but there wasn't one on the rifle when I took it apart. Is the claw extractor good? Does it effect the accuracy? If so, what can I do to fix it? I would greatly appreciate any advice given to me.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike <killare@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 03:34:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.50.72)

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Kevin - Have fired the E2 and it is uncontrollable WITH the E2 stock and front pistol grip sling. First round will be on target and the rest will be tracked on Air Force radar. Never found anyone that could control the weapon on full auto with live rounds. There may be someone but I never found anyone and I used the M14 as a primary weapon for several years, to include SF time.

Jon - Yes, there is a shortage because of the changeover to M118LR. In teh military manner of saving money, the army will not buy LR until the old is used up. Do you see a real shortage coming? Went through this crap in 86 when they changed from M118NB to M118SB. We are in the process of usng it up as fast as we can.

Play nice guys, you are getting shrill again! :-)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 03:47:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.151)

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Armed teachers: I don't think it would be a good idea to issue guns to all teachers, but the ones who are motivated and trained should be allowed to carry under suitable regulations. The Isralis went from several school attacks in a year to zero with this policy, and not a single mishap, so don't dismiss the idea out of hand. Our current policy of "gun-free school zones" and "zero tolerance" has done nothing but hung a big sign on our schools that reads "Attention Homicidal Maniacs: Government-Certified Unarmed Victims Here". Remember that two school shootings have been halted by armed school employees. The cops have stopped none.

Mike, 24" barrel will get you to 1000 yards with the right load, but just barely. My partner the first week at Storm Mountain had the same setup as you, it stripped the stock screw before the week was out. YMMV, but keep an eye on it.

Gooch, What documentation did you get with your AT rifle? All I got was the test target and a flyer from Leupold about how to read the scope reticle. Somehow I feel there should have been more.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Freezing in the Dark, Kalifornia, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 04:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.1.132.212)

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Rick- does this mean the National Guard is way out of luck on ammo? for how long? I left an easy job in PSYOP to be a sniper again and now it's what? Back to the Line?
Jon <m21sws@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 04:25:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.184)

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Bravo' I agree with you completely. Although the AK is better suited to full auto. I'd much rather have A semi M1a or M-14 on semiauto. I too would take the 1911 over the UZI. I just have the unfortunate experience of having tested all this full auto crap. It was being tested to prove it's worth which proved mostly nil. In testing the only place the full auto seemed equal or awesome was very close ranges. Like 10 to 15 yards. The pistol was much faster to bring into service unless the full auto was held at the ready. It was unknown what would happen if the pistolero took evasive action but the machine gunner is not likely too due to the concentration neccesary to keep on target.
Wes; I got involved in a scenerio cook off during the school disasters and it was the opinion of the body that a deterent was needed in the form of a show of force. The "Air Marshall" type solution was considered also and the one you mentioned. ONe proposal involved School districts sharing tactical officers who would talk to the body of students and faculty and explain how they would endeavor to control the situation. (Films and demonstrations by Good bad and scary tackies if you will) A series of "Watch towers" would be manned at random times (unknown to the affected watch area occupants as to whether there was a Counter Sniper in the tower or not). The idea was to create a deterent without the use of excessive man power using well trained personel. IN other words it would be up to the Perpetrator to decide if the area was guarded or not. A little far out perhaps but the idea of a Rifle in a tower just looked too much like a prison and the idea was scrapped although it was the most economical one proposed. Columbine occured a week later and it was discussed one more time. It might be healthy to discuss the prospect here among those opinionated by experience... but it didn't work at the school boards of America.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 04:26:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Rick: Need any help getting through the remaining ammo? Tons-o-volunters on this site! {;)
 

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 04:59:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.244.76.69)

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Hey guys, I thought you might like to know about this.

I notice that a a lot of you guy's talk about poor service from the custom builder of your choice.

I would just like to mention the incredible service I received from George at GA Precision. About two and a half weeks ago I called up and ordered a gun.

Then last week you guys started a pissing contest about Badger stuff as compared to D.D.Ross stuff. So I started thinking I talked with a friend of mine who has a Ross guard, looks kind of, well junky but beefy!

In a panic I called George and he had already started on the bedding and was using the guard we agreed upon, A Badger Ordnance.

I discussed my concern that some think the Badger guard is not as robust. George said it was everything and more.
He could tell I was worried and made the following offer, ”If you don’t think the badger is better, I will put in a Ross at my expense”.

Well I got the rifle yesterday! 2.5 weeks! Incredible! I took the rifle to my friends house and we compared, For those of you who think the ross is in any superior, you are WRONG! The guard the Base and the rings are the most incredible things I have ever seen! I got the MAX-50 rings, it’s only a 7.62X51 but damn, its cool!

I realize that proof is in the pudding, the rifle will shoot this weekend, but the service and the apparent quality is wonderful. George is my new Smith!
Just My two cents!
P.S. George admits that 2.5 weeks is shorter than normal, normal is 3.5-4 weeks NOT Months!

Fox out!

Fox <m4carbine@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 05:04:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.59)

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Howdy All,
RE: The LE in schools. I have spent the last two years installing equipment in public schools all over the Great State of Texas, and I can assure you that there is not a High School in any major city in Texas that does NOT have a local LE stationed there. Many already have metal detectors at the doors. Interestingly enough, nearly every one of the Superintindents that I spoke with, in the small rural towns, indicated that the issue of students bringing firearms to school was no big thing. Never was an issue due to the COMMON SENSE of the rural kids/parents, and if it happened, most of the teachers in those same small rural schools had "deterents" handy. Just an observation.

Rex
Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 05:21:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.146.102)

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Rockchucker,

Terry what the hell?..........

Guess that's meant for me, but I don't have a clue......

Please enlighten me........

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 05:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.44)

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Any of you guys want a bit of a laugh? If this brings some of you guys the laughter that it brought me then it's worth going off topic a bit.

This was taken from AK47.net and is a pretty good laugh, you like those new little scooters all the kiddies love so much? Seems they are making an impact in other circles as well.

http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/Forum6/HTML/018822.html
 

This one was a post made on Glock Talk sometime back and somebody thought it was so priceless they decided to put it on their webpage to save for awhile.

http://www.geocities.com/suketh.geo/gun/mall_ninja.html
It's 3 pages long but the first page is probably the greatest one.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 06:40:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

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Squirrelboy: You got me ROTFLMAO!!! You guys gotta go check that out, especially the business about the mall security guy that runs 400 rounds PER NIGHT, just to keep sharp. HA! Almost blew brew laughing so hard! Big worry in life: 338 LM repeatedly in the back. HA DOUBLE HA!

AND! the snow out here is slipping away in spots, let me know how to get that target, hopefully in another week, I'll have something to e-mail you. After all, we gotta make those PSG-1 guys jealous! HA! Where do you come up with this stuff?

Fox: Good to hear about your experience! I dunno if anyone has ever read a book by some of these guys, but they turn out TOP GRADE stuff. Consistently. I'm just a Ford and Levi kind of guy, don't need any labels to make me happy. As John Lennin said, happiness is a warm gun ;-)

No takers on the Rainier bullets? C'mon 45 auto fans!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
man, I wish *I* could be mall security!, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 07:22:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.130)

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The more that you fellas talk, the more that I learn. I almost feel that I owe some of you money for what I have picked up on this board.
(Please note that I said almost HAHA)

Uglygun- Glad to see that you made it over to the new AR board, I was beginning to wonder where you were at dude.

The weather is starting to break, and I will soon be able to get out and embarrass myself with my PSG(You listening BRAVO :) )

Thanks again guys for being open with your intel and the real world experiences. One hour on this site is worth more than ten years subscription to any gun rag on this planet.

Chuck
300ydClean(From the AR-10 vs PSG1 debate)
Chuck <Ballsack34@aol.com>
Troy , Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 09:06:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.211)

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We are a 50 man department and have a 10 member SRT. We are in the process of purchasing a boltgun. Our command has decided that 2 of our 10 members will be used as a sniper/observer team. The 2 members of the S/O team will not be utilized as any part of the entry team any longer even if there is no need for a S/O. These 2 members will be left out and not utilized. Is there any logic to this? How many other departments our size do this with their S/O. is there any reason at all not to cross train these 2 members since we have only 10 members to start with? Thanks.
Andy

Andy <titanxt@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 11:28:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.54.202.84)

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B. Douglas - mall ninja:

We should write that dude a letter and tell him to just find an old - block chevy engine block - and strap it so that it hangs vertically around his torso. Face it toward the area of percieved threat

Ken :)
Ken Hunter (AKA. Chainsaw ) <Hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 12:36:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

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Chuck, if you would like to make a contribution, please make check or money order out to the "Bolt 6.5x284 Project". It's not tax deductable, but will happy to let you shoot it when enough funds are raised to build it.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 12:41:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.230)

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Bill R:

Head shots on hostage takers? I was an R.O. for 5 years for an IPSC style combat shooting club. Once when I was setting up a match course at the local police range an entire shift of cops showed up to qualify on their bullseye course. They saw what I was doing and they all decided to shoot our IPSC style course (time into score, multiple targets, running between banks of targets, and one hostage situation like you described, etc.) The result? Every cop there shot the hostage!

Afterwards I was talking to the shift supervisor about it and he said it was their department policy never to shoot in hostage situations, so they never practiced doing it. Well, I can see why they had that policy!

Later our 50+ club members shot the exact same course and hardly any hit the hostage. Why not? Because they were used to shooting BG targets partially hidden behind hostages and it was no big deal.

What would I do in real life? Shoot the BG in the head. No question about it. (But I wouldn't want an untrained shooter trying it with me as the hostage!!!)

Alan:

We were issued the exact same guns as you were as patrolmen. But as a det sgt I was able to carry my own personal weapons , which consisted of a blue .45 Colt LW Commander with ivory grips and an S&W airweight bodyguard as back-up. When long guns were needed I used my 870 or my AR-15.

.308 Handload question:

Yesterday I went to the range and tested my .308 Savage Scout (with conventionally mounted Redfield 3-9 Accutrac) using two slightly different handloads.

42.0 gr of R-15 behind a 155 gr SMK (Palma), Federal 215 primers, nickel Remington cases, COL 2.775 = 1/4 inch 3 shot groups. Hard to believe, but true.

The other load was exactly the same in all respects except it contained 44.0 gr of R-15. The result? 2 1/2 inch groups!!!

How can this be possible?

I'm courious if the 42.0 gr load is that accurate in other .308's, or if it's just my rifle that likes it. Maybe some of you could try the load and give me some feedback?

I've also gotten 1/4 - 1/3 inch groups with the same 42.0 R-15 load behind SPH's.
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 13:35:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.104)

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Danny Reever...
You got e-mail problems... it keeps coming back.
Go on the Weaver 36 thingie.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 14:45:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)

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Bill R:

I forgot to add that I wouldn't try hostage taker head shots with a shotgun, unless I was absolutely sure the BG was going to kill the hostage. With a pistol/rifle within reasonable range, no problem.

Handloads:

I also forgot to add that the other 42.0 gr R-15 bullet was a .308 150 gr SPH (Sierra Pro Hunter), a flat base bullet. In a previous post I mistakenly said it was a SGK 150. Velocity with these loads is about 2650 fps.

Combat experience:

I would also like to comment on the "bullet-proof" attitude that combat survival seems to instill in some. As a rookie, 5 of us were sent to another city to help the cops there put down a smaller version of the LA riots. To tell the truth I was scared sh*tless what with hundreds og BG's throwing fire bombs at us, buildings and vehicles burning all around us, gun shots going off everwhere in the dark and us 5 not even knowing the other cops.

But afterwards I was never again scared of anything. As stupid as it now sounds, I actually felt that there wasn't a BG good enough to get me. And I somehow "knew" that I wasn't ever going to get shot. That's why BG's with guns never bothered me, to the point that I never even bothered to take cover in armed BG situations after that. It must have worked because I never got shot, even though a lot of the other cops kept telling me that they figured I was going to some day. It seems like I remember Carlos H. saying something similar.

I'm wondering if any of you guys ever experienced anything like that?

After reading the Medal of Honor citations I'd guess that's probably what happened to a lot of those guys. After surviving enough serious combat situations they eventually just figured they weren't ever going to get hit, so it didn't bother them to charge machinegun nests, etc. Some were right, and some..........
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 15:10:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.104)

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And I thought we had some squirrels on this forum at times. Those guys should be comedy writers up there on G. Talk. I can't get that picture of the guy takin all the hits while the partner uses him for cover out of my mind. OK which one of you guys wants to be a bipod?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 15:14:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Flash,

Not an uncommon occurance that you experienced.

In reloading for accuracy everything is about harmonics and stabilization. What you found was that at 42 grains the bullet was stabilized adequetly for the range you shot, and the barrel was consistantly at one end of the occilatory cycle.

Going up in pressure may not have affected stability, but probably changed the point in barrel occilation where the round exited. If the barrel is in mid cycle when the bullet exits you get what you got, a thin tubed shotgun.

You might find that a further increase in powder charge would increase velocity and tighten the groups again.

As a case study, last weekend I was developing loads for my 308 using N550 and 155SMKs. Under 2400 fps I had a shotgun. At 2450 the impacts started climbing the target until the velocity reached 2800fps.

At that point each 1/10th grain charge increase dropped the bullet 1 diameter vertically until at 2950fps the impact was directly under the crosshairs. Going further for 3 shots at 1/10th grain increase raised the velocity to 3050fps but the bullet impact point began shifting 90 degrees left.

Since the barrel is a 1-10 twist my thought is that over stabilization was occuring, rather than barrel harmonic.

2950fps is the accuracy load for that tube with that powder lot and primer.
Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 16:18:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.85)

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'yote Bate...

To hell with the human bipod... I wan' a pair of those "Kung foo" booties, that allow you to walk up walls, and across the ceilings!

I always knew there was something inherently crazy about those glock-sters... I think it comes from the poly-ure-ethan-ethel-butyle-nitor-ethylene fumes that get a Glock-ster's mind, after the frame heats up, shootin' them 100,000 rounds a year, practicing for the terrorist raid on the shoppin mall! ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I ain't E-V-E-R going to a mall again... way too dangerous, in the , USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 17:21:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.88)

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Bravo: you beat me to the magnum 45 definition, it sounds as if our tastes in music are as similar as our tastes in everything else, lets see, in my cd rack I see Scottish Bagpipe, Sade, Runs $ Goses, but I prefer Hank Jr. to drink to:)
Next you'll be telling me your significant other is a redhead.

If the powers that be would let parents and teachers carry they would be sufficient to deal with threats to our children. As it is a teacher gets fired, then sued, for roughing up an armed (knife) student who is threatening others, while dissarming him.

peteR: that brings back memmories of my mispent? youth, have you tried JKD, it was the last style I trained in. I wish it had been the first. Its that good!

Andy's Dad: how do you feel about arranged marriages? :)

Life is dangerous, the freedom to live it requires EACH of us to take responsibility for the safety of ourselves and our loved ones.

We have less to fear from amateur criminals than from profesional polititions. We dont need anyone to take care of us, we just need the freedom to take care of ourselves.

iiii's <mikelsam@ipa.net>
siloam springs, AR, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 17:37:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.128.140.12)

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Range Day!38 degrees,thick fog,and no wind abd I'm tickled pink with my VS!It's shooting 1.3" groups,including CBS at 200 yards, with federal 175 grain match box loads.Yeah, I know there are tighter groups out there, but it ain't bad for "stock".
Question: What is the opinion on the roster of the relative value of shooting paper for tight group, as opposed to shooting at small steel targets for practice ? I see a lot of guys on the range out here shoot really tight groups, then they can't hit an 18 inch plate at 260 yds, much less the 6 inch plate at 225 yards.I've never thought I was that great with a rifle, ( expert in the Army ) but I have to laugh my ass off watching these guys sit around and miss what I use for practice.
DON'T THINK I'M GETTING COCKY ! I know most of you guys can out shoot me, especialy at long range,( I don't get to practice much past 300 yards )My point is merely this, doesn't hitting the target count for more than little bitty groups ?
Give me five minutes to prepare some overhead cover.....
loper <loper@micron.net>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 21:10:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.206.40.50)

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I have recently enlisted in the Canadian armed forces and was wondering if there were any former Canadian Snipers I could talk to that have experience, hopefully I will become a sniper in the army and I was just wondering if any one could give me some pointers on how I should go about doing this pleas e-mail me.

P.S does any one have a used Gili suit I could buy?

Greg <gdanaj@sympatico.ca>
Washago, ON, Canada - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 21:31:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.209.109.146)

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Loper: in the statistics class I was mandated to attend (no offense there CDC, just not my bag), that was explained as the difference between accuracy and precision. Precision is a one hole 10 shot group. Accuracy is a group centered on the bull. Theoretically, we're looking for both, precision and accuracy, or a one hole in the center of the bull. It's my opinion that I'd rather have accuracy than precision to a certain point. I'd much rather a poor shot use a 1/10 MOA rifle to shoot at me than a good shot use a 1 MOA rifle. With my finger pointing to the center of my chest, there's no place that I can move it 5" to and say "yeah, that's where I'd PREFER to be hit"!! HA! That's why I told Chuck and the others that any of those rifles are PLENTY good enough for their jobs. We're just playing the target game for giggles.

iiii's: nope, not this time. Although there was this one...... I've got some of Hank Juniors works as well. There's a difference. Jimmy plays good drinkin' music for HAPPY people. Hank and hooch make me sore and sporting for a fight. Maybe it's all in what I pick for how I feel ;-)

Patron 'Lito: I can personally guarentee that the poly-ure-ethan-ethel-butyle-nitor-ethylene fumes I breathe are some of the NICER things in my system HA! It makes a good excuse for speeding though: "honest officer, I've got 12 ppb rocket oxidizer in my blood, couldn't help it!"

Flash: good explanation of it!! I know what I can do, because I've failed so many times. Same, I would bet, with your IPSC club. I'm with you, I'd take the shot with a pistol or a rifle, even a carbine, but only if I HAD to. The only person in danger from my scattergun is me.

Now, how do I get onto the AR site. There's probably someone that needs their wheaties pissed in ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, looking for moles, USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 22:25:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.237)

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Bravo,
I agree wholeheartedly, if I MUST get shot at, give me a slob with a target rifle over a sharp cat with a musket, any day!Besides, I got to back you up.Anybody with your ( and MY ) political views,makes his own beer and a parrothead too,man, have you got a sister ?LOL
Mostly I just wanted to see if I'm off track on my practice/training routine. I start out on paper to record cbs and a couple groups ( 4 shots,since that's what my rifle holds ), maybe try some other load, log it all in my book, then start beating on the plates, mostly the 6 inch. Unless I go to the desert where I can get some distance.At any rate I log every shot,wind,temp,etc.Hopefully I can get a data base built up.Later this month ( waiting on a bonus check ! )I'm getting a loopy 3.5X10 M3 and then it really gets interesting !
loper <loper@micron.net>
USA - Saturday, February 03, 2001 at 23:29:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.206.40.55)

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Re: Gecko_45...... First I ROFLOL - then I became worried - after that scared s***less. Joke or not, is this guy really out there among innocent people. Either he's damn good, to be able to keep posting like that with a "straight face", or surely he can find some replacement tin foil for his hat in this "major indoor retail center".

I sure hope that he NEVER finds out that OUR mall stooges are issued 106's and 2 cases of HE Frag per day to play with, cause he'll be heading in my direction real quick*;-0

Bravo...... I was hoping against hope that this was a REAL FN-FAL (Belgian, maybe Browning imported, etc.) Was I expecting too much?;-)) Heck, the reciever alone would have been worth the $650. " You'll never win the Lottery if ya don't buy a ticket".
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 00:06:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.23)

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Andy Titan-
Two points- how professional do you want your S/O team?
- How much time can you allot towards training?

If you honestly can not spend the time, do not field S/O's. If you do have time, remember that time itself is the most expensive and hardest to get commodity in training. You can have an excellent S/O team that works very well as a perimter unit (you will need that also) or an ok sniper team that is ok as an entry team. You can be the jack of all trades and master of none.......This applies to part time and full time teams.

I do believe you should train the snipers and entry together to know how each other operates, what to expect, and in case of a SHTF scenario.

From experience I can tell you it takes a while to get the entry mode out of your thinking. Also from experience, having cross trained and then dividing the tasks - a better team results from clearly definable positions and duties. You simply can not expect a sniper to be his best at an entry and an entry guy to be his best at a sniper role. I, for one, have done multiple entries in the past. I would not be an asset to an entry team now- I don't have the steps down.

Train your people in their positions to do their roles to the best of their ability. The sniper vs entry role is too different to blend training. You just don't have the time.

Just my 2 cents-Mike T
 

Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 00:32:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

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B Douglas;
You are to be commended sir for providing entertainment that otherwise we just would have missed and lightening the prevailing mood of the Roster.

'Lito:
Please,please,please.....post a response to that goob.I've been missing Sniper-Foo for a while now.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 01:51:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.206)

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Andy - Your SOs should be cross-trained so that they can react in an emergency and aid in entry. They also need to fully understand what is going on in the building so as to properly function as a SO. SOs should be entry team members first then trained as SOs, not guys that are picked because of whatever reasons and “stuck” as SOs. Those SOs are the eyes of the entry teams and need to know what that entry team wants to know for intel BEFORE it is asked. They need understand what will constitute a problem so that they can warn an entry team. You know, those small things like clotheslines, tricycles, etc that can be a problem during an emergency assault. Now to your question of use as an entry team when not used as a SO, you will be used as an SO because you are their eyes and no you do not need to play entry too. If you want to play entry then stay on the entry team.

Jon and all, We are having enough trouble with multiple LOT numbers during courses as it is. Besides, I’m greedy and like to keep what I have. Also the NG will probably get the ammo before we do. That seems to be the norm. As an example, who got the first M1 Abrams, North Carolina NG.

Iiii - As a point to what you stated about teachers. As you guys know, my daughter is a vice cop. Before that she was a teacher of mathematics to high school crowd. She wanted to be able to hit back. She would come home with bruises where the little pr*cks would get in a fight and she would try to break it up and get pummeled. Now she can hit back, sorta.

Loper - You need both. One rule that is unbreakable is that if your group size is bigger than the target, then you will miss your target some of the time. The bigger the group the more often the miss. The practice for group size (they should be a minimum of five rounds) should include several different exercises. One exercise would be to group on a regular one minute of angle square. After that, hold off of the square and then shift onto it for each shot to establish a comparative group. This gets you used to shifting the weapon onto target and then adjusting for wind when the shot must be made “right now”, (we do not use the windage knob for wind adjustment so this exercise is critical for our guys.) Now shoot groups onto odd shaped targets and compare your group size to the first control group on the moa square. Get the groups down and then practice at unknown distance ranges. You need to know your data for each situation and weather. Keep notes and see what effects your shooting and how. This will increase your first round hit odds at targets at unknown distances. Your regimen should include both styles of training.

Bravo - What you’re talking about is the difference between a gun and shooter that shoots .5 moa groups and those that shoot within .5 moa of their aim point. I prefer to shoot within .5 moa of my aim point, which will give me a potential 1 moa group, then have a .5 moa group that is 5 moa off my target. :-)

Play nice guys, and HOLD HARD!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 01:58:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.192)

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I just wanted to thank every one on this site for the knowledge I have gained by visiting and reading your comments. I would like to add my two cents here by saying that, IF a trained and competent School Teacher wants to carry, they should not not only be allowed but also encouraged to do so, only my two cents, but thats my opinion, again thanks for sharing the knowledge.
Randy Littleton <opendbar@yahoo.com >
Aragon, nm, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 02:15:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.234.218.28)

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B. Douglas - Thanks, I just wet myself!

Rick

Depends <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 02:25:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.192)

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Master Rick: on "hitting back". True story. A teacher my mother worked with wound up getting literally laid out. As in KO in one. The kid got 3 days suspension for that. Dunno if this name will ring a bell with Youse Guys or not, but Jerry Ahern took a knife in the lung that way.

Alan: if you get a Belgian FAL for $650, it's gonna be from a guy in an alley wearing a trechcoat saying "hey shooter, c'mere". And it won't have any serial numbers ;-) Or maybe you're luckier than I am. These yahoos tell me that my Itallian Beretta isn't worth squat (offered half the book value for a 98+ condition, for trade-in on a Kimber), but thiers is a "one of a kind collectible", because OOOPS! dropped the box and the barrel got dinged at the muzzle. "yup, came from the factory that way, $50 extra!".

Loper: yeah, got a sister 5 years younger. Just head to San Antonio, go due south until you hit the border, pace back 75 yards or so, and you're in her back yard. While you're there, tell her husband hello, and to put down the rifle ;-)

chant with me: sni-per-fu sni-per-fu sni-per-fu sni-per-fu
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Time to load more 9's, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 02:33:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.190)

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Folks,

Attended a small local (Corvallis, OR.) gun show today. The right thinking folks in the town tried to get it banned. No joy, but it is not attended by the dealers and hobby crowd like before.

Went hoping to find a Remington 700 short action or used rifle to build a live varmint gun on...interesting lack of same. Think that since they got the hobby crowd out the dealers are only bringing new stuff. Nothing worth bringing home.

As a side note I've not seen gun prices so LOW in years. New "fully loaded" Springfield 1911's could be had for $550.00. With an additional $25.00 off and they pay the state backround check fee ($9.00)! Incredible! Has anyone noted a similar trend?
Looks like the industry is in trouble. Winchester primers for $12.50 per K!

One outfit was selling Winchester Law Enforcement Only" 9MM +P+ for $12.00 for 50 rounds...what's going on?

Headed to the shop. I hear some .308 and 6.5 X .284 brass that is calling my name to be loaded!

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 02:34:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.9)

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Guy's Sorry I didn't get to clutter up the roster with my ramblings today.. but I went to get some of them Ninja Ceiling walkers. The Walmart Clerk knew right where they were. They look lie regular tennis shoes but one question...What's this tube of super glue for?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 04:00:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Greg, CF - Sniping .

To be a sniper you a required to be of the 031 Infantry MOC (PPCLI,RCR,R22eR) If you have joined the reserves you are SOL - the only spots open are for the regs. You must go through Infantry Battle School, then you will be assigned to a Battalion in a rifle coy. You must then take you comms course, and drivers course( Fuck knoes why ??) to be eligible to take the Recce course. You are then qualified to take the sniper course. You will realistically have at least three to four years in BN at a minimum (5-7 is a more likely figure). Don't bother buying a ghillie - you will have plenty of time to tailor one to your personal preferences. If you get it you will have the C3A1 (parker Hale w/ McMillan stock and USMC mildot Unertl 10x), plus now the McM .50 bolt repeater, and it looks like the .338LM AI is coming down the pipe.

Best of Luck -
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 04:22:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

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Wes:

Now that you mention it, I have been noticing that firearm prices have fallen by 10%-20% and ammo components have dropped drastically. Winchester small rifle primers go for $13.50 here when they were $16.95.

I have friends who deal various firearms and related items and they all say that business is almost as brisk as it has been, but the markets elsewhere seem to be folding, which allows their products to be sold here.

They all believe that there is a grassroots effort, even in gun friendly areas, to do away with guns stores and shows. Half my family lives in the Idaho/Montana area and they also feel that the firearms industry is under heavy fire by locals. Seems the media has been very effective in stating that firearms are evil.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
teh once cowtown, MIle High Country, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 05:17:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

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Hey all you law enforcement pukes

Had a funny one last night. Snagged a guy on his 3rd DUI and multiple ohter charges. At the hospital for blood test I ask the drunk about the vehicle he was operating as it wasn't his. He then informs me "Hey you can't charge me with stealing that car the keys were in it when I took it" shit I didn't know that. Really that was the best laugh I got yesterday. Holmes confessed to a felony in an unsolicited statement, and the sad thing is he believed he wasn't getting charged with receiving stolen property.

All

Planets all lined up and I squinted just right couple weeks back duirng a warm snap. 535 yards with 45grains Varget and 168 Moly Amax
finally broke an inch .930 unwitnessed of course. Two more three shot groups to prove it wasn't a fluke both stayed under 2" 1.78" and 1.94" center to center. That rifle is getting there. Every rifle I've switched to Varget in has showed serious improvement expecially after 300 yards. I gave up on the Palma Matches for long stuff, maybe its me but I believe they just won't hold in the wind like a 168 will. I'm going to give the 175 SMK a try have yet to stuff one in a case mouth but a thousand Rosterafrians can't be wrong.

Goodnight boys
JC
 

JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Learning Something New Everyday, KY, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 08:05:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.161)

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B Douglas
Dude thank you for the laugh. My eight month old son has been keeping me so busy that I been skimming rather than reading every post. Glad I caught that one.
Boys if you ain't clicked on Mr Douglas's links yet do it. Funniest thing I've read in a while.
JC 10-07
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Laughing my posterior off, KY, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 08:40:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.161)

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JC

Very interesting!! You hook up a BG, multiple deuce, arrest him, take him to the hospital for blood and you didn't know who's car he was driving????? What did you do just take said BG no questions asked and left the car parked on the side of the road?? Seems either you're a joker (from your opening statement) or you need some serious remedial trainig.

Bolt Gun service: Just received my Win 70 from Hart. What a beaut!! Their work is outstanding. Their turnaround time is a little long for my taste but worth the wait. I highly recommend them.
joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
Turdlock, CA, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 08:43:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.217.142)

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Joe
I didn't elaborate on the stop trying to save space, took it for granted that any one wearing a badge would get the jist without spelling out the whole scenario.
So to settle your worries of my inferior street technique
Stop made reference reckless driving speeds in excess of 80 mph in 55 zone. Upon contacting operator I immediately observed an overwhelming odor of alcholic beverage. Subjects eyes bloodshot and watery, speech slow and thick. I requested an ID subject advised that he did not have an OL with him. I then avised the subject that I needed a name and SOC and that if he provided me with false information I would summarily charge him with that offense. He then provided me with a false name and DOB could not remember SOC. I proceeded with FST's that is Field Sobriety Tests Joe. Subject failed 6 of 6. Severe HGN at MAX Deviation Onset prior 45 degrees and lack of smoothe pursuit evedent in both eyes. PBT acohol present.
During the FST's dispatch was attempting a NCIC and LINK search under the information that I had provided concerning said subject. No record on file. When I advised the subject that he had failed FST's and that he was under arrest he recanted on his previous info, and wanted me to forget the charge of Giving False Info. I advised him that he was warned and that the charge would stand. I then placed subject in custody and proceeded with a search incident to arrest of MV that is motor vehicle Joe. I then provided dispatch of the proper information and subject came back as DUI suspended 2 prior charges in last five years. Subject had been arrested 4 months earlier reference Operating DUI Supended making this a second offense. NCIC LINK search of vehicle yielded no hit Joe as the vehicle had been stolen only 2 hours prior and the owner was sleeping totally unaware it was missing Joe. I called for a wrecker and a fellow officer was kind enough to stand by with the vehicle as I transported the subject to the hospital for blood tests. We have a twenty minute observation period here in KY Joe that begins at the test facility and alcohol is exigent evidence Joe that means it disappears, so time is of the essence on a DUI. I had a dispacher attempting contact with the registered owner of the vehicle during the time that I was testing the subject. During the testing Joe I just interviewed the BG as you refer to him and since the vehicle did not belong to him and dispatch had not made contact with the owner I just flippantly asked how he came to be in possession of it. He then made the statement listed previous post. So you see Joe I had a confession to a crime that was not yet reported. But the main thing was I lined up my ducks, car in hand investigated after I obtained alcohol/drug test. To prolong a DUI arrest and blood test will lose a court case in my county as the legal limit is .08 and minutes wasted on something that can be handled after testing will aid the subject in processing Alcohol out of his system. I got 6 charges on this snapper head and lodged him in the hoosgow. I then made personal contact with the RO that is registered owner Joe and she advised that no she did not know that her car was missing. Sad thing was she had a on and off relationship with this guy and she was not interested in pressing charges Joe.
I just wanted to spread a little humor on the "You can't steal a car if the keys are in it bit Joe" sorry for any inconvenience it may have caused you Joe.
I started not to respond to your derogitive comment but it irked me Joe. I bust my ass policing, I live it and breathe it. I have made several DUI arrests Joe in excess of one hundred in the last 11 months alone.
I post on this roster occasionally and read constantly and I've noticed the ribbing and enjoy it but I also noticed that if a personal attack is made then the victim duelly responds and sometimes even gets some back up from a Rosterfarian or two.
So Joe take some time to think this over and if you have any further problems with me or my intelligence give me a holler at my email address, I've been married for 9 years I get enough criticism from my wife but if you feel froggy start jumping.

Rosterfarians sorry for the lecture
JC
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Sour Apples, KY, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 11:16:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.40.69)

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JC4swords,

Breathe in then out, Innnnnn - Ouuuuuuuuuut there feel better?
 
 

iiii's,
Praise be to Varget!!!!! No JKD, just Traditional Go-Ju, TKD, TSD, Shotokan, and The Howard Brothers finest moves Nyuck-Nyuck
 

'Lito,
Suction cup shoes? RTLMAO I get this mental image of you on the ceiling of Golds Aerobics room in a Ghillified spandex outfit, you health spa "Predator" you.
 

Master Rick,
Well said as usual thanks for sharing.
 

No pain - No gain, or brain.....
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 13:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.189)

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Ref: New Range

Yesterday, Andy and I got our first chance to walk the terrain of our new "shootn' spot". We're pretty happy about what we saw. Our extreme long shots will depend on what the farmer decides to grow. If it's corn we'll be out of luck between July and harvest time. If it's beans we're good to go all summer. Andy wanted to go ask about it and I said that would be pushing it just a little. There is one spot where we can shoot 450 yards down a laneway so there are no crops to consider.

Ref: Hostage Situation vs shotgun

I know my pattern size at various ranges but I can't predict where that wad is going to go. What is the lethal range for the wad? I guess if you have to shoot it doesn't matter.

We were watching one of those TV shows where the BG is holding a gun to a kid's head saying, "drop your gun" to the good guy.

I said, "Andy, if you were being held and the BG was talking to me, what would you do."
Andy said, "I'd lean away and plug my ears."

iiii wrote,
"Andy's Dad: how do you feel about arranged marriages? :)"

I spoke with Andy about it.

Andy wants to know if she can reload and clean fish.
 
 
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 13:39:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

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JCfourswords...
Well said, ma' man. Me thinks you passed LE 101 pretty good... maybe Joe has an apology up his sleave somewhere.

PeteR...
It's the other guy that has to breath innnnnnn and ouuuut ;)
Those guys over in glock country, are a real piece of work ;)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 15:10:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)

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Kevin(Andys Dad);
I don't know what the lethal range of a wad is(thats a shotgun wad there boys)but one will put a right impressive dent in 3/4" treated plywood at 25 feet,and like my mom always said "It'll put your eye out"

Jim Mitchell;
you asked about tapered bases for a Savage the other day and I meant to answer and forgot.So if you don't have an answer yet e-mail me and I'll tell you what I know.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 16:02:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.176)

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JC- I laughed. Kind of reminds me of the things not to say when you get pulled over.....
"You're not going to look in the trunk now are you officer?"
" Would you hold my beer while I find that registration?"

Thank god criminals and idiots don't have an entrance exam.
Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 16:36:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

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Dudes,

Got some info for ya.

I've been hired by Autauga Arms to research the development of a Whiddington Center type facility here in Alabama. The principle desires to build a 1300 yard or more known distance rifle range, field fire range with automated targetry, pistol ranges, rifle zero ranges, shotgun facility etc. Plans are to have retail facilities, cafe, camp grounds etc.

Right now the "V" ring for this thing is Northeastern Alabama as we want to have access to the population of the Chatanooga, Birmingham and Atlanta triangle as well as thier airports.

I visited with numerous organizations at the SHOT show as to thier interests in this thing and there is plenty of interest ranging from the SASS to Summer Biathlon types. We are not building a "school" rather a facility for others to use. Of course it will be open to leasing for trainers to use but we are not going into the training buisness. Been there done that, got the T-shirt.

Rosterfarians, I am looking for help in two areas.

1. Looking for land in Alabama. I have located numerous parcels ranging from 480-1400 acres in the AO and some have shown promise but we haven't nailed it down yet. If anyone has any leads I would appriciate it. I'll "take care" of anyone that provides me a lead to the land that we select. We are looking for land that will provide natural containment of projectiles, is far enough from established housing areas that noise won't be an issue and is preferred not to be arranged so we would be shooting over or into wetlands/creeks etc.

The perfect land would be about 600 acres with about 300 being in pasture and the rest being the shittiest mountain terrain in North America that would be the impact area. If we are shooting into a mountain we don't have to sweat having a real deep impact area.

I'm hooked up with the NSSF and the NRA. My old CO at Quantico, Col Willis, is now the HMFIC of the NRA Range Department so we have plenty of horsepower there. We have the backing of the Alabama State government, funds are online etc.

2. Put the word out on this project. When I get it up and running I want to be able to have a large enough base of organizations such as IDPA, NRA, SASS etc that I will be kept busy managing the events.

Dudes, this aint a pipe dream. Lots of money is being put into the next 9 months trying to determine the feasability of this thing. Any help that ya'll can provide will be remembered.

My number at work is 334 358 0980 if you need to contact me.

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 17:37:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.167.163.18)

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Kevin; Perhaps Andy should comment more often! Between the traffic stop, and the Glock stories. I'm runnin out of Nitro!
Now I know how piss off a Redneck Cop, handle a hostage, and walk on the ceiling. Where else but SNIPER COUNTRY!
Lito' I took your advice.. I decided to find a doctor who specializes in Glock owners. I sure it will help me.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 17:48:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Rick, this combined group size thing reminds me of about a year ago when Pablito and I just about got death threats, LOL, from not so brite over this issue. Please no more. School teacher/cop, man if she wasn't your daughter and I was not old enough to be her father. LOL
 

Flash, I know the feeling of the mutual aide thing. I have been on or riot team for what seems like forever. I used to think it was bbad but about a year ago we got an 800mhz radio system and now we have trouble talking to some other agencies. I mean only a few in my area have upgraded to 800mhz.

Dave L., sorry can never remmeber how to spell your last name, barely can spell my own. We have a new guy, Paul Slyvinski (have to put it on a daily roster so I have learned that one) says your brother is
" A hell of a good cop". Since this guy is a good cop I thought you might like to hear it.

Bravo, get ahold of me

Wes, I bought a Springfield loaded myself. The price was 600.00 out the door, here in Calif and the thing is just about a custom gun. Now in five more days, ten total I will shoot the hell out of it.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 18:20:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.83)

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Folks,

Still working in the shop, but taking a break.

Undude...I REALLY like the looks of the "loaded" 1911's. If I was flush I'd be picking one up today, myself. Luckily have my custom SS Commander and a Les Baer LW2. Both superb guns.

When in the mood for a mousegun I use my Browning Hi-Power...

Gooch-san, sounds like you're plugged in for the Alabama Range development. Don't Know Col. Willis except by reputation. If he, the NRA, and the State are backing this I don't see how it can't happen.
Best of luck in your endevor...

Would add my .02 worth, but you folks know more about range design than I do...I'm just an old 1302 that could build the darn thing.

Back to the reloading bench.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 20:14:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.47)

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Gooch - Good to hear about the deal with Autauga Arms! Next time you talk to Col. Willis say hi to him for me. Worked with him in Saudi for a contract training the Counter Snipers of the Royal Guard. Gave him a hard time because we grew beards and with him bald head he looked up side down. :-)

Mike - I would never start that “discussion” again. Only agreeing with Bravo on the difference of precision and accuracy. Know a number of guys that can put one bullet on top of another but NOT on target. Just as some have problems grouping once the target is no longer a geometric shape, ie circle or square. Besides, need to keep the blood circulating once in a while. Now about this combined group thing. :-)

Oh well, no good wall walking for me tonight. You guys get those boots fitted yet? Sure will make it easier to get into the top of that palm tree the next time. All I need now is the rope to tie myself in. Hold Hard guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 22:26:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.59)

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Lito
A while back I emailed you on getting a more rugged gun to set up for precision shooting. You advised the Winchester Stealth would be an excellent choice. The rifle looks great but the backorder is still in effect, waiting period unknown. The 700 PSS is also backordered but dealer advised that wait wouldn't be more than a month. I don't mind the cost difference in the two rifles just wandering which one would in your opinion be easier to make shoot. Summer is coming and I'd sure like to have a rifle ready when it gets here. If the wait for the Stealth is worth it I'll hold off. Thank you in advance.
Any one know where a Stealth can be snagged quick sound off.
Bill Rogers
Hell man I wasn't pissed. I chew a little snuff on occasion and when I get pissed I tend to slobber and sling spit all over the place. Hell dude my screen didn't even get wet just the keyboard in spots HA.
Once again my apologies for the off topic post.
Breathing innnn and ouuuuut
JC
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Spittoon, KY, USA - Sunday, February 04, 2001 at 23:27:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.134.66)

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JC; I feel yore pain! I don't know which was the more entertainment...
your BG or your getting nailed and havin to answer. Some of these things are priceless. Well at least Andy knows which way to lean!
Let the good times roll!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 00:32:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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JC wrote: Any one know where a Stealth can be snagged quick sound off.
 
 

If you check the emporium there is one on there.
John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 00:37:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.186.235)

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Hilarious thread on the mall-guard, even my wife was ROTFLHAO....
 

iiii,
My wife's a redhead, her Scots-Irish ancestry showing through... have bagpipe-rock CDs in Rover... 7N, MacKeel, Clandestine, Kilt, etc... (along with the LedZep, Pink Floyd, etc.)... go to Grandfather Mountain every year (in my kilt!)....
 

Gooch,
Are you fixed to Alabama? I can't help that far south, but in Tennessee, northwest of Chattanooga, is a lot of land that may do... check out around the Sequatchie Valley, but even more so, check out some coal strip mines in the Cumberland Plateau... there's an awful lot of land out there that some companies would LOVE to sell dirt cheap... no one wants the land after it's been mined, and once they've taken the coal the company doesn't want the land either... it's possible to reclaim the land to a decent status but it costs money... a rifle range wouldn't need a fancy reclamation, just a level grading (regs state that unless there's a variance issued, the land must be returned to approximate original contour (AOC)... they would like to not have to put that much fill back in... I've thought about it quite a bit, up here in Virginia there are somesweet strip benches that would be ideal rifle ranges now... Just a thought for ya, you may be able to make good use of cheap industrial land... email ya if you want w/ questions....
 

L8R,

-Leslie
 
 
 
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 00:46:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.149)

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JCfourswords...

Go to the "Emporium" and take that puppy's .308 Stealth away from him... he wants $650 after 64 rounds... take it!!

If you can't get it, WAIT! The Stealths are due out in April, have your deal put in a FIRM order with his distributor, as they will go out in the sequence of placed orders.

If I had no .308 (God slap my tongue), I would wait... the Stealth is a more better riffle, even if you get a "good" PSS... and with PSS's you take your chances... many have been less than desirable.
I had three PSS's, now I have none!... I now have three M70's... plus two Rem 40's... in .308

The only Remingtons I will buy now, are the 40 series... I'm picking up the 300WM Rem tomorrow... but too many guys (besides myself) on this site have bitched about problems with their PSS's that should never come out of the factory... and Rem didn't give a crap.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 01:09:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.59)

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UNERTL 10X SCOPES..... now that I've got your attention, it looks as if another shot has been fired in the USMC 10x Sniper Scope War. Has anyone seen the almost half-page ad that the Unertl Optical Co. has taken out in the 12 FEB. issue of SGN? Looks like it's aimed at the Undudes favorite scope maker, without mentioning any names. I sure respect and admire Mike, agree with his opinions (on most things), and know that he believes what he says, and is a man of his word. But why then, have I always come away with an uneasy feeling after talking with this unamed outfit?
'LITO.... do you have any of your insiders knowledge of the situation over at Unertl? I previously heard that the former manager (or something) was taking over the co. and bringing in the old crew! Is there any truth in that? I'd sure like to have a REAL Unertl! I'd go as far as ordering it tomorrow AM, if it became a reality and the price was a bit more realistic than you-know-whos'. If you haven't seen the ad, 'lito, and you have a fax #, e-mail me off site and I'll send it to you tonight!

AR QUESTION..... I'd like to put a collapsable butt stock on my 16" pre-ban "truck gun" to allow easier acess to it from behind the seat of my pickup. Which one - 3 or 4 position, old 'shorty' style or new ribbed M4 type? which mfg. - Colt, DPMS, Bushmaster, or one of the other parts co.'s like MA, J&T, etc.? Aluminium or Fiberlite? And why?

Inquiring mall guards want to know :)
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 01:45:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.144)

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Pablito has more experience with different M70s than I have. I bought the HBV he recommended. He even found it for me. All it has had done is the magazine slick-up he recommended, a trigger ajustment and it had the action screws torqued to 65lbs. I used second rate dies to crank together 1,000 rounds of ammo in brass that had been fired once in another rifle (175 SMK/44 gr Varget). I'm afraid to start a 'first liar never has a chance' thread, but this thing shoots with rifles that cost much more. It really raised some eyebrows at a 1,000 yard match.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 02:00:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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ALAN...
You agree with the UnDude on most things??? HA! (as Pat would say)... he and I took count of the things we DISagree on, and it was over 10,287, and that doesn't include, Women critters, Chili, or riffles ;)

I'm not sure what's going on... I've heard many versions of "the facts"!
Me too, on US Optical... every time I talk to that guy, I feel like I've just been "Greased", and need to take a hot bath with strong brown soap... he's just so gaddamned arrogant and self-adoring, plus he shovels it with gusto!!

My jist of it is that the old Unertl has been split in two... the military scopes went to one outfit, and the LOooooong target scopes went to another... neither of them being USO!

It appears that USO has a limited contract to repair existing Marine 10x scopes... and has a lot of parts.
He took a lot of deposits for "new" one hundred 10x M40 type scopes (he almost got mine!) to be delivered in January, but I haven't heard of anyone getting theirs yet (any of youz Rosterfarians get your 10x Unertls from US Optics yet???).

Some of the guys that went to the Shot show, said that there were reps from both of the real "new" Unertl companies... but that's all I (think) I know... now that Lucy Unertl is out of the company, I have no more contact with them on the inside.
I will give her a call tomorrow, and see if I can get the skinny on it.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 02:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.59)

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Hey Titan
I've emailed you twice on that Stealth can't get through. My message comes directly back undelivered.
I will take that 308 if you give me a yell.

Lito
Thank you for the prompt advice
JC
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Not denying being a redneck, KY, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 02:32:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.134.49)

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300 MAG AMMO ??
I have a REM 700P 300mag. I'm looking at some different scopes and ammo. How will the 300mag 150gr, 190gr match, 220gr, perform at 1000 yds w/accuracy and stopping power, Any recomendations on a scope? Burris Black Diamond 6-24x50mm ballistic mil-dot, Leupold 6.5-20x50mm dot, Nightforce 3.5-15x56 mil-dot THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 02:34:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.177.19.106)

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I have a question to anyone who can answer it. Can a 25-06 be an effective sniper rifle?
 

Ryan
Ryan London <cyberleap@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 02:35:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.10.67.3)

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Can I get a few questions in with anyone who owns some ballistic software? Please e-mail me if you are willing to run some chrono results. Thanks
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
Portland, Or, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 02:42:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.12.34)

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25/06 as a sniper rifle?

Ryan, I'm probably one of the more "odd" members of this list(if that is possible). I shoot 6.5 X .284 and .308. Think you'll find msot of the members shoot .308, .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua, and .50 Cal.

There's no reason a 25/06 couldn't be used as a sniper rifle. Certainly shoots flat and is accurate. Here's some reasons I wouldn't use it...

Burns out barrels fast, not supported in the logistics system, you know of anyone out there making "match grade" 25/06 let me know.

As much as I love my 6.5 x .284 if I were limited to one gun for the sniper mission I would select the .308. More development has been done on this than any other cartridge that I can think of...
Choice of M118, M852, and the new M118LR for the military sniper. civies can use whatever they want. LOT's of specialty ammo out there, too. Finally, the .308 suppresses extremely well and with the right ammo is sub moa at 100 yards.

If this is your first sniper rifle stick to the .308. Start with a Rem PSS or Winch Stealth and work from there. Learn the basics and upgrade if needed. Training and shooting is more important than having a big name gun, as in the final analysis its the shooter that's most important to the equation.

Hope this helps...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Willamette Small Arms Academy
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 02:55:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.30)

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Ryan: yes, I would think so, with the provision that you don't shoot it. My 25-06 dog gun would do amazing things with SMK's, but it shot out so quick I would pass on that caliber again in a heartbeat for anything that gets over 100 rounds a year passed through it.

Alan: the "fiberlite" stuff seemed flimsy to me, I went with an A1 fixed stock on mine. Besides, you've got to have the stock OUT to do any good, if you need it RIGHT NOW, you don't have time to diddle the adjustor. I can see it for cops or troops, where they have to deal with different lengths of pull for frag vests, etc, but not for me ;-) Besides, if I put an aluminum telestock on it, then the whole thing would feel the same - flimsy! A war club this thing just isn't.

Master Rick: beware the ninja boots. If the plaster isn't thick enough on the ceiling, you could wind up with a bump on the noggin and a home repair bill. So, if you shoot while upside down, what does a battle sight zero turn to? Maybe it just keeps "falling" into orbit? HA!

Sir Wes: you have my sympathies on the knife-jerky-jewelry-new comblock stuff shows.

On traffic stops: what's the deal now with requesting the driver to sign his rights against search without a warrant away now? I've heard a few different people telling me that they were requested to sign a waiver so the vehicle could be searched, and when they didn't that was "reasonable cause"! The only good reply to "you don't have anything to hide do you?" that I've heard was "no, nothing at all. So if you'll just sign the same statement allowing me to search your home, I'll sign this". I've taken to carrying my federal travel permit, state travel papers, and copies of my travel taxation stamps on my person. That way I can get out of the vehicle, lock it up, and not have any nagging questions (at that point it's considered part of my home). Other than "since when did we need federal and state travel permits in America?"
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 03:01:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.120)

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ALAN...

Thanks for sending me the Unertl add... that is their REAL phone number, and address, so...
... on a whim, I just called Unertl, and THEY ARE IN BUSINESS (and working at 10:30 at night)... and they will be selling the 10x Military M40A1 scopes, plus the Loooong target scopes, and they will be doing repairs to all the target scopes. Elsie is gone, and "Freida" is on the phones.

I guess that a lot of guys have been "greased" on the 10x Sniper scopes from California... you'z Rosterfarians that sent that Rascal in California, yo' money, had better get it BACK... get your 10x Unertl scopes FROM THE REAL Unertl!!!

Man, life jus' keeps gettin' mo' better and mo' betterer!!

HA!... to USO!!!

JC... My e-mail won't get through to Titan either... so I posted a message on the Emporium, for him to get in touch with you.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Unertl is back in business, and the Republicans are in the White House... I mean, is life good, or what??? in the vary nice, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 03:22:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.68)

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JC - 'lito Titan has an email on the emporium hatherly1@home.com
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 03:43:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

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Pablito: I must confess to being a Winchester shooter too, with a .308 Sharpshooter, and 7mm Laredo at hand. Just recently I picked up a Stealth in .223 to play with. It shoots .776 with some old 55 gr Noslers I had, ahead of 26.5 grs of 748. The trigger is too heavy, so have to do something about that. There was a Stealth in .223 at www.ellettbrothers.com yesterday if anybody is looking for a crow shooter. Now, Pablito, please advise me on a chronograph. I'm thinking of the standard Oehler 35. Who sells them at a reasonable price, and is there something better? I've never had one before, but have read that Oehler is quality. Thanks.
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 03:53:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.10.31.151)

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JC and Pablito - It looks like my ISP's Email is down for a while.

Call me @ 810-953-1196 till 11:30 or so tonight, Eastern time. It is 10:50 here now.

Titan
Titan <titan7.62@home.com>
LOst with out working Email, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 03:54:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

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Titan - dude - I can hook ya up with an Email address - I mean Rat now - if you want one. It's currently 23:00 here in the east...

Call me on 703.791.3033 if ya want - but no later than 23:30

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <308Towed@RifleMen.net>
Nokesville, vA, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 03:59:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

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Bravo & Car searches:

I'm a wee bit behind the times, but long ago and far away I made as many as 105 felony arrests in a single year as a patrolman, many of them by stopping BG's and searching their vehicles WITH THEIR PERMISSION.

I usually worked the midnight shift and what I would do is sit in a gas station with my car lights shining into the interior of every passing vehicle. When I'd spot occupants who looked suspicious, or like BG's I'd pull out and follow right on their bumper until they got nervous and committed a traffic violation. I'd stop and arrest the driver for the traffic violation, and check out his car's interior with my flash from OUTSIDE. If I spotted any evidence of a crime being committed, or illegal items (dope, burglar tools, weapons, etc.) I'd immediately arrest the BG(s) for those offenses too.

If I didn't spot anything, I'd BS with him for a while putting on my best "dumb cop" act. When I figured he had bought it I'd ask him if it was ok to look through his car for _____ (I'd name something that from talking to him I figured he DIDN'T have.) Since he knew he didn't have whatever it was I'd asked him about, he'd almost always say go ahead and look, I don't have any of that.

Then I'd tear his car apart looking for anything illegal that constituted a felony (I didn't care about misdemeanor stuff). If I found any felony stuff he went to jail. If not, I'd just write a citation and let him go on his way.

The moral? (1) Don't bet years of your life that cops are stupid, (2) don't ever consent to a search even if you THINK you have nothing to hide. You could be wrong, especially if you are in another state. The police may search anyway, but if they do any evidence will most likely be thrown out at a motion to supress.

Now before I get jumped on by the cops here, let me ask them a question: If you were on vacation in another state (like New York, New Jersey, or California) and had a handgun and ammo with you, and got stopped for a minor traffic offense, would you consent to a search of your entire vehicle? And you not having a clue as to what the gun law is there? Me neither.

Carrying concealed in my state is 100% legal with a permit (which I have), and open carry on your person or in your vehicle is legal here without a permit. But that might be a felony in other more repressive states. And since I usually travel with a gun, I wouldn't consent to a search, "just in case" it happened to be illegal in that state. And maybe if I didn't think I had a gun in mt vehicle I could be wrong, so I wouldn't consent then either! Heck, there is one pistol that I can't find and maybe it's hidden in my camper and I've forgotten about it being there?

BTW, your Constitutional right to be free of unwarranted searches is the only reason you need for refusing. You don't need any other reason.

Stay safe!

Flash (Who used to love searching vehicles!!! It was like opening up Christmas presents!)
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 04:12:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.76)

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Thanks Ken for your kind offer, but i just got off the phone with JC and made the necessary arrangements.

Titan
Titan <Titan7.62@home.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 04:53:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

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Question for you current handgun nyucks.

I was browsing one of the mass-run gun rags today and read a blurb that Springfield Armory will be putting lockworks (? maybe Series '80 garbage?) into their 1911s, and that Kimber will soon be adding some kind of key-locking safety into their pistols as well.

WTF, Over?

I've owned exactly one Series '80 Colt (an Officer's Model, which I sold). I'm still not impressed with the '80 lockworks option, which is why if I bought today it wouldn't have the horsey on the side unless it was Series 70 or earlier.

Don't mean to drag handguns back onto the board (Lord knows), but I've also read where Remington and everyone else is adding key-locks into their actions. The current crop of 7 or 8 pound+ trigger pulls is indicative of the power the lawsuit has on all types of weapons...think of the weird two-piece front pivot pins on Colt ARs, followed by oversize trigger and hammer pins.

Wondering if combat weapons will have all these garbage add-ons put on them...let alone which current production guns are going to be changed "to protect ourselves from ourselves."
 

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 05:07:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

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JC
Just a public apology in addition to the personal one. Didn't mean any harm, will make damn sure the :-) is in there next time. Just post here now and then and therefore the true jest of my words is not yet known. Should've known better. Lesson learned. Onward and Upward. Later...
Joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
Turdlock, CA, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 05:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.223.244)

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Jerry...
Get the Oehler directly from them. There are two or three dealers that sell them, but at the "list" price. this is NOT your typically discounted mail-order item. Their guarentee is outstanding.

I bought one of the first M33 they made, back in the mid 70's, some 25-ish years ago, and dragged it around forever, like a kid drags a blanket...
It sat in the trunk of the car one year, and the batteries (Evereadys) leaked in it, and corroded everything, and it didn't work anymore... so I sent it back, asking them if they could fix it... three days later, I received a BRAND NEW ONE!!! Now that's what I call a guarentee!!
Get the printer, and you won't forget to write the numbers down at the range (I forgot all the time)... just clip the printer paper to the target, and work it out at home.

JC...
Glad you got the Stealth!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Unertl is back in business, and the Republicans are in the White House... I mean, is life good, or what??? in the very nice, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 05:40:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.68)

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.308 Reloder 15 Load Data - Second Installment

Let me recap what the test equipment and test conditions were;

Factory Remington 700P in .308, 26" barrel. The factory chamber has a long throat. When measured with a Stoney Point gauge and Sierra 175 gr. HPBT Match Moly bullet (unless stated otherwise all loads will be with this bullet), the tail end of the bullet was at the mouth of the case when it finally touched the lands. Can everyone say LIABILITY! I think Remington wanted to try and guarantee no extreme pressure spikes. Cases are match prepped Federal Match and Premium that has been sized in RCBS small base dies, necks turned to uniform thickness (.0145), factory is about .0165. I used Federal GM210M primers and all powder charges were individually weighted on an Ohaus 10-10 scale. Bullets were seated with Redding Competition seating die. All loaded rounds had an overall length of 2.83". Velocities were obtained on a Pact Professional set at 15' from the muzzle. The range I used is at approximately 1350 feet of elevation and the temperatures were all in the neighborhood of 69 - 75 degrees and sunny. I can?t seem to force myself to go to the range on those cold or wet days.

In my first installment I took my first shot, pardon the pun, with Reloder 15 and these same Sierra 175's. My goal is to duplicate either the military M118LR or Federal 175 Match. My 10 shot velocity average was 2545.9 fps, to slow. For comparison purposes I have included some prior chronograph velocities that may help you estimate what velocity might be achieved in your rifle;

43 gr. of Varget - 2575.4 fps
44 gr. of Varget - 2632.4 fps
43.2 gr. of IMR 4064 - 2619.0 fps (for use in NM M1A, 175's were non-Moly)
Federal Match 168 - 2641.4 fps and 2641.5 fps (same lot on 2 separate dates)

Since I haven?t been able to get a hold of any M118LR to chronograph I tried the military load data from TM 43-0001-27 for M118 Special of 44 gr. of IMR 4895 but replaced the 172 gr. bullet with 175's loaded in Federal cases. This combination yielded 2676.8 fps.

It was now time to try again with Reloder 15. My Speer Manual 13 showed 45 gr. of RE-15 was a max load with 180 gr. bullets so I decided to use it with the 175's. The first 10 shots averaged 2646.7 fps and the second 10 averaged 2649.6 for an average of 2648.2 fps. According to Federal their 175 Match is supposed to do 2600 fps from a 24" barrel and my Ballisticard Systems cards indicate 2640 fps for Federal 175's out of a 26" barrel.

Based on this data I think I am very close. All that is left is a little fine tuning by lowering the charge weight by 1/10 gr. or 2/10 gr. or so, and of course I will be looking closer at accuracy. Saturday (02/03/01) when I was at the range the winds were gusting with 10 to 15 mph highs. Under these conditions the 20 shots averaged 1.03" with 3 shot groups right at .5".

Hope I didn?t bore anyone too much!
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 05:44:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.156.155.238)

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Reports from the 300 meter line

As promised, I shot me new GA Precision today, with the badger gear and all.

After a short 100m zeroing and about 40 break in rounds I was off to the 300 benches.

After a few shots to find the paper, I shot 10, 5 shot groups, I cleaned between each 5 shot string and fired a fouling shot at a different target.

The results:

Fed Gold match 168’s

1, 2.22” this is in inches at the 300meter target. (328 yrds)

2, 2.31”

3, 1.50”

4, 2.10”

5, 2.10”

6, 2.04”

7, 2.04”

8, 1.95”

9, 1.92”

9, 1.95”

10, 1.92”

This averages out at about .73 MOA!

The fouling target had 10 rounds on target and that group was 2.26” (.76 MOA !!!!)

After this I was so excited I could barely stand it!

We took a short break and went to the 100m line again and I did what my shooting partner said was stupid!
I shot a group, it was about .75” then I took off the scope and then bolted it back on and shot 5 rounds.

It was on top of the other group, it opened it up to about .78”

I will recommend GA Precision for a first class rifle and Cooper barrels for accuracy
and the Badger Base and rings seem to be perfect!

As for the Badger guard, it does have more style than the ross, not as boxy But when my partner went to dump the full box at the end of the day he couldn’t get it to open with a cartridge ( I know you shouldn’t use a good round) had to use a cleaning rod, mine opened with the base of a round not damaging it at all!

I’m sold! Badger and GA all the way

Fox out!

Fox <m4carbine@aol.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 06:12:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.151)

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For all that have been asking Here is Unertl Optical Co. Info:
 

Unertl Optical Co.Inc
5050 East Belknap
Ft. Worth, TX 76117
(1-800-334-3573)
 

Ken or Josh Wilson are the ones to talk to.

They are back in buisness and are making the full Unertl Line. They are taking orders for Unertl 10x Snipers they are $2500 I believe.
 

George out.
 

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 07:02:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.177)

---

For all that have been asking Here is Unertl Optical Co. Info:
 

Unertl Optical Co.Inc
5050 East Belknap
Ft. Worth, TX 76117
(1-800-334-3573)
 

Ken or Josh Wilson are the ones to talk to.

They are back in buisness and are making the full Unertl Line. They are taking orders for Unertl 10x Snipers they are $2500 I believe.
 

George out.
 

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 07:03:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.177)

---

For all that have been asking Here is Unertl Optical Co. Info:
 

Unertl Optical Co.Inc
5050 East Belknap
Ft. Worth, TX 76117
(1-800-334-3573)
 

Ken or Josh Wilson are the ones to talk to.

They are back in buisness and are making the full Unertl Line. They are taking orders for Unertl 10x Snipers they are $2500 I believe.
 

George out.
 

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 07:03:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.177)

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Mike T
Hope to drink an import with you one of these days
CDC
I'll be tickled if the Stealth I've got coming will do half as well as yours sounds like 'lito hooked you up
'lito
thank you for the assist, it never ceases to amaze me how quick you get back to us posters as busy as you are.
Titan
Once again man good talking to you
Joe
Buddy I've regretted snapping at you ever sense I pushed send. Everybody has opinions pardner and the great thing about this place is we can voice them. No hard feelings and if I misinturpreted then I am the one offering an apology.
Let me end this by saying I hope that new Hart barelled rifle groups tite and cleans quick.

By the way Titan is 10-08 boys I felt like a newby listening to him talk equipment and manufacturing techniques. This guy knows his shiznit. Hell I even scored a Bushmaster lower off him in the same call.
Later Gents
JC

JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Antoher 770 in the hole, KY, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 08:15:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.172)

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How to measure one hole groups?

Never having had a one-holer before I don't really know how to measure the groups my Savage Scout is shooting. What I have been doing is measuring the OUTSIDE of the group, farthest edge to farthest edge. Then I subtract out the diameter of the bullet.

For example if the entire one hole group is .50 inches wide at its widest part, and I'm shooting a .308, I subtract .308 from .50 = 0.192.

Is that the correct way to do it without special equipment? If not, what is?
 

Consent searches II:

Bravo, I forgot to answer the rest of your question. If no legitimate violation was committed I didn't stop the vehicle. If the driver refused to consent to a search, I didn't search the vehicle. If, after I stopped the vehicle, I realized the occupants were not BG's like I had originally suspected, I didn't try to search the vehicle.

I was looking for felons, I wasn't out to harass law abiding citizens.

You would be surprised at what I turned up doing consent searches. I broke up a big interstate auto theft ring that the FBI came in on and ended up solving 80 some auto thefts with the arrest of all the perps, made a lot of lesser auto theft arrests, got a few burglars on their way home with loot from B&E's that hadn't even been reported yet, including three BG's with a trunk full of stamps and money orders from a Post Office B&E, and often made more narcotic arrests than the vice squad.

Another cop solved one of the most brutal rape/murder cases we'd ever had, and which we didn't have a clue or a suspect on, by doing a traffic stop consent search of a suspicious driver.

So consent searches aren't all bad. The problem is that some cops don't know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. I recently saw on a cop site that a Bible, or a copy of the U.S. Constitution, on a car seat is considered to be grounds to suspect the occupants of being armed and dangerous anti-government militants. (I wonder if George Washington ever thought the day would come in America when the possession of a Bible, or possession of a copy of the Constitution, would be considered anti-government? Sounds more like Red China, doesn't it?)

Stay safe!
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 11:38:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.72)

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Ref: Searches

Why would anyone ever consent to a search?
What possible good could it do?
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 12:51:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

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Alan,

Buy the 4-position stock for your stock change. Stick with the brand of your lower if possible. (Colt buffer tubes and Bushmaster buffer tubes are different diameters.) You will also need to buy a new receiver extension (buffer tube), locking nut, receiver end plate and the shorter carbine buffer spring. Colt part numbers are:

Receiver extension: 62356
Buffer spring: 62373
End Plate: 62358
Extension nut: 62357
Sliding Buttstock: 64679

Download and read pages 3-78 through 3-79 of TM 9-1005-319... from AR15.com (books) (free). Don't crush or bend your receiver unscrewing the old buffer tube... they are usually very tight. Remove staking with a small dremel grinding point. Make sure the indexing of the new tube is correct before staking the new nut.

Good luck.
 
 
 
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 13:33:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.56.86)

---

Alan,

Buy the 4-position stock for your stock change. Stick with the brand of your lower if possible. (Colt buffer tubes and Bushmaster buffer tubes are different diameters.) You will also need to buy a new receiver extension (buffer tube), locking nut, receiver end plate and the shorter carbine buffer spring. Colt part numbers are:

Receiver extension: 62356
Buffer spring: 62373
End Plate: 62358
Extension nut: 62357
Sliding Buttstock: 64679

Download and read pages 3-78 through 3-79 of TM 9-1005-319... from AR15.com (books) (free). Don't crush or bend your receiver unscrewing the old buffer tube... they are usually very tight. Remove staking with a small dremel grinding point. Make sure the indexing of the new tube is correct before staking the new nut.

Good luck.
 
 
 
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 13:35:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.56.86)

---

Flash; I think George and Tom did think of that. That's why they wrote the constitution.
I think you'll find there is a law to protect your firearms when you travel state to state. Ronald Regan set that up several years ago. But it's kind of limited in that you can only carry them in your car I believe. Best rule is not to submit to a search. When they say "do you have any firearms". Don't answer the question. Don't give any answer at all or answer with a question. A violation of unreasonable search doesn't deserve the truth.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 13:43:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

---

Flash: that's the way I was taught for meausing groups too, so if you're wrong, we're both wrong! Thanks for the heads-up on the constitution. None other than James Jarrett told me the same thing. Told me that I would be considered a "radical" because I keep a pocket constitution on me virtually all the time. It really helps when I get into a conversation about socialism or taxation, someone says "it's in there", I had it to 'em and say "show me" ;-) Some of us just KNOW better. And I'm not getting down on CONSENTUAL searches, that's what they are! If you've got a dummy that is STOOOOOPID enough to sign a waiver for you search the car when he's got a body in the trunk, then he's deserving of what he gets! What I was questioning was why a denial of consent sometimes constitutes reasonable suspicion to go ahead and search at that point. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation if you catch what I mean. One of my buddies, who admittedly looks like a stoner, got to sit on the hood of his car for almost an hour while they rounded up a judge to sign a search warrant for the car, because he refused to let them search. Of course they found nothing, didn't understand he was refusing on the grounds of his rights.

Jerry: I second 'Lito (as if he needs it), the folks in Austin are nice, they're great on service too. If the wind ever blows your tripod over and smashes a skyscreen, you'll learn to love 'em ;-)

Patron Sinister: On the Springfield 45's, the new lockwork isn't the series 80 stuff from what I can tell from the outside. There's a little key hole in the mainspring housing, top left. You put your key in there, give it a twist, and it disables the pistol. Incredibly stupid in my opinion, but that's what they've done. Doesn't appear to be anything but a device to tie up the mainspring, something a new mainspring housing should take care of in short order! But that's just what it looks like from the outside, to me anyway. I have absolutely no idea about the Kimbers. I, also, just have one series 80 Colt, and officers ACP, and won't sell it due to the sentimental value of it, but it's the last Colt I'll purchase. If it's a deviation from the 1911A1 drawings, unless it's a 1911, then I don't want or need it.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the free country, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 14:23:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.163)

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Not to say it doesn't happen but refusal to let an officer search is not/never has been reasonable cause for search. By refusal you put in the judge's hands. If he issues a search warrant based on the fact that you refuse. You'll beat it eventually whether they find something or not. Not to say they won't detain you or find some other trumpted up charge to mess with you and that's one great cause that creates people like me who don't trust their government or it's agents.
We'd like to see the BG's caught and punished but the cost ain't worth it if we have to let a whole ship load of loose cannons on board. We are warned by the Early founders that it is the Zealots that democracy has to fear as opposed to the tyrants and dictators.
I read that very early on and wondered what they meant. I have no doubt at this late date. Since the "war on guns & drugs" the zealots have become fearsome devils to threaten all our freedoms. Policemen whose measurement of performance is on arrests and confiscations have replaced those "peace officers" we all trusted with our lives and property against the criminal element. The Prohibition days marked the beginning of the end of Justice as the people of the United States knew it. Once the money entered the picture it's been down hill ever sense. When I hear a policeman or Game Warden tell someone they "can confiscate your gun and truck" over some minor violation I want kick his butt and read him the Constitution!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 14:58:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Hi Hogs,
Just catching up on the Roster after the weekend, who or what is the "MALL NINJA"??

I find it interesting reading the Roster and seeing how many of you guys are in martial arts and a pistol shooter too. It must be a gene defect that puts us all in the same pool.(HA)

Andy T,
I agree with Mike its not uncommon to have the S/O off doing their own training and not kicking down doors with the rest of the team. We used to do our thing and then we would get togeather with the rest of the team and train as a group.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 15:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

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Anyone able to get to forums.ar15.com? I've tried it for a while and get a blank intro page.
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 15:10:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

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Quality Control Problems at Remington?

Recently, I took a PSS new and discovered upon inspection on the end of the barrel a 3/8" half moon area around the circular edge where it appears the metal was rubbed or scraped. It is cosmetic only. The gun shoots yesterday on occasion 1 hole groupings as I sight it in with a 1/2" total spread with the 3rd bullet.

The finish on the trigger guard on each side is starting to rub off also after a few days of shooting with it being carried in a full size Blackhawk case.

In the past, the 2 other new PSS's I have owned have not had cosmetic damage from the factory.

Another who recently bought 2 new PSS's said he too had cosmetic problems, with rust on one gun where he said parkerizing was not completely washed off. I did not see his guns.

Is anyone else noticing quality control problems with new Remington products?

While I can refinish the gun if I want, I dont need to, but most people do not have the ability to correct the manufacturer's problem. If the trigger guard finish wear (on each side) is any indication, the finish they are using is no where as durable as it needs to be.

Secondly, has anyone adjusted the trigger pull on the PSS? Is it difficult? Any suggestions? The other two PSS's I have had tested crisp triggers at 3 1/2 lbs. This gun shows 6 1/2 lbs!

But the thing shoot great!

Thanks

Robert Tschiemer
 

tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 15:14:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.130.138.238)

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Byron,

I've had excellent luck with 43.5gr Varget under a 168gr AMAX loaded to 30 off the lands. My 700P throat is waaayyy long as well, measuring 2.910 to the lands. My 175gr MK load is 44gr of VVN540.
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 15:22:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

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tschiemer...
If you read the Roster Archives for the last two years, you will find tons of complaints about PSS's. Rem has a lot of internal labor problems now, and it's showing up in the street!
Consider yourself lucky... there have been PSS's with no rifling on one side of the muzzle, jagged burrs in the chamber that tore cases, damaged crowns, actions that are crooked in the stocks... and the list goes on and on :(((
... and Rem doesn't give a shit!!... it's getting more worser, not more betterer :((

For the yuckie trigger... go here:

http://www.snipercountry.com/RemingtonTriggers.htm

... a absolutly GREAT artical, written by an absoluty GREAT guy ;)... on adjusting Remington triggers.

Gone for the rest of the day...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 15:29:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.103)

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Easy way to figure come-ups?

Can anyone give me an EASY way to figure come-ups based on rise and drop ballistic tables for non-typical loads?

My scope has 1/4 MOA clicks.

The rifle is a 7mm Mag firing 168 gr SMK's at 3000 fps.

Rise and drop table results:

100 yards = +3.4 inches
200 = +4
300 = zero
400 = -9
500 = -24
600 = -46
700 = -75
800 = -113
900 = -160
1k = -218

As you can see, the 7mm mag shoots almost twice as flat as a .308.
 
 

Consent searches III:

Anyone interested may go to Findlaw.com, then go to the Supreme Court case law section, then run a search on "consent search" and read the verbatim four US Supreme Court "consent search" decisions listed. Bottom line? Anyone dumb enough to freely consent to a vehicle search has forfeited his rights.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 20:12:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.76)

---

AR15 has moved the new address is http://www.ar15.com:1111/ Hope this helps.
Jeff <jeffstewart@prodigy.net>
Wixom, MI, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 20:38:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.255.81.100)

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Flash - if you have MS Excel it gets real easy
but take the drop in " / range * 100 = MOA and x4 for 1/4MOA click
Range Drop" MOA
100 3.4 3.4
200 4 2
300 0 0
400 -9 -2.25
500 -24 -4.8
600 -46 -7.666666667
700 -75 -10.71428571
800 -113 -14.125
900 -160 -17.77777778
1000 -218 -21.8

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 21:18:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

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JC - thanks for the kind word.

Lito, Thanks for the assist.
Just for thought:

I never realized I was such a threat. I carry The Bible, The Constitution, and a car seat for my 3 year old just about all of time. Oh, and lets not forget about the CCW and the Glock 23. What is this world coming to.

Titan
Titan <titan7.62@home.com>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 22:09:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

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Flash: For a 1/4min scope the formula is:

Clicks = ((100 * (drop in inches) x 4 )/ (range in yards))

There will be error from the inch/minute conversion

I haven't double-checked this and I've got to leave NOW. Bravo, if you have a sec, please check this for me.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 22:15:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Pat,

Nice to see you back!

Gene Defect???? Ha!

"Victory is the consumation(sp?) of thorough preparation"

and when you're a spaz like me you're always practicing.

CDC,
is the new torch ready yet?????????? Ha! to the third power
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 22:44:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.32)

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I am particularly intersted in bench rest shooting. I want to try some long range shooting as well. I know that I want the .308 caliber, but I am torn on what rifle to buy. I really like the Remington 700pss but I don't want to spend that much money just starting out. I have heard good things about the M70 Winchester and am really fond of the Stealth. I would also consider one of Savages sniper grade rifles. I could really use some feedback from you guys to help me with my decision. Everybody knows that the Remington will shoot, but how do these other two weapons hold up against it?
Thanks, Robert
Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
Boissevain, VA, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 22:48:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.210.241.101)

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Re: Comeup calculator on Excel.

I did one once, but I'll have to find it. Until then, you can do away with the inch/moa error by multiplying the result by 1.047. Or maybe it's dividing. I'll have to check. I became a cop so I wouldn't have to do math, and it seems like that's all I do now.
 

Also... Anybody know of a good riflesmith in my area (MI, IN, OH) that can "Ackley" a rifle for me? I've got an extra .223Rem bolt gun, that I'd like to stretch out a little. I don't have the $$$ for a 22-250 right now, and I figured a set back bbl and Ackley'd chamber would get me close. Please email.

Lance Johnston <email@sgtlmj.com>
Osseo, Michigan, USA - Monday, February 05, 2001 at 23:13:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.246.233.133)

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Ref: Sniper Comps.

If you could attend only one sniper match other than the SMTC Sniper Rendezvous what would it be and why?
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 00:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.47)

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Range Drop" MOA 1/4min
100 3.4 3.5598 14.2392
200 4 2.094 8.376
300 0 0 0
400 -9 -2.35575 -9.423
500 -24 -5.0256 -20.1024
600 -46 -8.027 -32.108
700 -75 -11.21785714 -44.87142857
800 -113 -14.788875 -59.1555
900 -160 -18.61333333 -74.45333333
1000 -218 -22.8246 -91.2984
 

Goofed the last one,
CDc correct me if I am wrong - the table will be a little messy for some reason tables don't come across on the roster well

Drop in Inches / range in Yds * 100 * 1.047 (MOA correction) * 4 for 1/4 min clicks
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 00:49:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

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Sorry you will have to round off your selves.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 00:50:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

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Easy Come-up formula?

Maybe I finally figured out what you guys are trying to tell me?

(1) First multiply the drop in inches by 100. (2) Then divide the result by the range in yards (3) The answer = MOA come-ups (4) Multiply the MOA come-ups by 4 to get 1/4 MOA come-ups.

For example if the drop at 500 yards is 24.47 inches, the come-up computations are: 24.47 x 100 = 2447. 2447 divided by 500 = 4.89. MOA Come-Ups = 4.89. (1/4 MOA come-ups = 19.56)

Is this correct?
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 01:23:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.90)

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Re: Bullet Drop

To All:

I answered Flash off-line, but thought I ought to pass it along here.

If you have a Mildot Master in your kit, and know your drops for various ranges, you don't need anything else. Same for wind drift.

If you have milled the target and have the slide set to the correct range (or if you have lased the target and set the slide to the correct range), bullet drop/wind drift figures from 1.75" to 100" are automatically aligned with the correct MOA correction, and the correct mil hold-over/hold-off, for that range.

Last Friday I broke in the new Krieger bbl. on my Rem., and I was having to hold under by a touch over 2.5 mils, having left the right Allen wrench at home, so I couldn't adjust the turret on my M3 LR. You can crank them up, but not down under your 100 yd. zero! Came home and adjusted the turret for a 2.6 mil elevation. Guess what I used to calculate it? Today at the range I was within a 1/2" at 100 yds., and within 1" at 200.

Yes, this is a shameless plug for my own product. But it uses no batteries, and made it through Y2K just fine. I will personally guarantee that it will make the Y3K transition also.

Ask Gooch, ask Garth Kendig at Leupold, or E-mail me for further info (this goes for all who bought one and didn't read the Owner's Manual, too!!).

Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 01:34:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.243.155)

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Kevin OTGWN: Your calculation is eluding me. For quarter minute ajustments I'm getting:

Clicks = ((100 X (drop in inches) X 4 ) / ((range in yards) X 1.047)

Note the bracks. Those force the order of operations.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Its white enough in tropical, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 01:52:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

---

Or you can just do it Bruce's way. That's what I do.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 01:54:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Cripes you guys do that stuff the hard way! Glad my daughter was the math major that way I can stay with my cheap tricks. 500 = 24 inch drop thus 1 moa equal 5inches. Thus 24/5 = 4.8 moa = 4.75 moa (.25 moa adjustments) 4.75 * 4 = 19 clicks. Stop worrying about the small crap you can’t shoot. Your error is smaller than the group size by A LOT! What is the exact count well 5*1.047 = 5.235 inches 24 /5.235 = 4.58 = 4.5 moa * 4 = 18 clicks. This equals every bit of 1.25 inches at 500!!!! That error will bounce around from day to day for cripes sake!!!

Guys shoot what you can and let the small stuff fall out in the end. :-) You guys have to learn to do the math in your heads and rapidly for when your (shameless plug here :-)) mil dot master gets stolen or your battery goes dead in your calculator.

Hold hard guys and let that sucker hold 175 grains of American Technology, in la cabeza! :-)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 02:15:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.157)

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how do i become a police sharpshooter ? thank you
james kines <kinesjm@ncfreedom.net>
jacksonville, nc, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 02:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.175.62.142)

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CDC thats OK my calculation has eluded me :)
I was just playing with Excel - It should be noted I got a C- in intro Stats.

Personally I just shoot it and record what actually happens - probable cause my formula was RTFO.
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 02:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

---

Flash; In addition to what you are receiving here I recommend you go to www.shooterready.com and study their tutiorials and follow the instructions. It is a very informative and fun thing to do and you'll master what you're trying to do. It would be nice to have one of Bruce's Mil Dot Masters to use on the game as that will train you to read and shoot.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 02:21:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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As an after thought you could use your mil dots and divide the 4.75 or 4.5 (whatever) by 3.5 or 3.44 (whatever) and hold high by 1.3 mils and clock the sucker too! :-)

I like 3.5 because the math is easier for old mind to compute.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 02:28:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.41)

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Hear what Rick is saying! Even Bruce's Mil dot can get lost or shot up. If you can do it without it. Just think how much less likely you are to error with it! Even in the dark your head will work! And you don't have to take your eyes off the field.
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 02:30:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Wild Bill: We agree in practice, but not in technicallity. Prohibition was the first major symptom of the disease started 51 years earlier. Without the treason passed under durress (literally) and non-representation of the people (14th), the 18th wouldn't be possible. Nor the 16th for that matter. Thus the legacy of the War of Northern Aggression. Certainly the big "end of justice" was prohibition. But of course, this is all consentual by the states. As in "you will consent or we will come over there and kill you". "again". As for confiscation of pickups and such by game wardens, you're 100% right, completely unconstitutional and illegal. I worked hard here to eliminate that as a ballot proposition (which passed) in my state, seems that too many people had loaded rifles in their truck rifle racks, and were thereby guilty of poaching the empires game. It should be noted that property confiscated was virtually never given back, even after a not-guilty verdict. Not any more! People are free in that respect again, here.

Andy's Dad: besides Storm, and a competition...... ANY ONE I COULD FIND!

Great Friend Bruce: You're 100%, that's the way I prefer it! Now, how can I talk you into guarenteeing that if I load ammo today that fits my Mildot master and Lupita M3 dial, it'll shoot to the correct place in Y3K? HA! BTW: I read the instructions 3 times. I'm slow, but good ;-)

CDC: looked over your last calculation, consider yourself peer reviewed at 100% (big surprise there, eh?). That includes the statement to do it "Bruces Way". Works out the same as Kevin's eqn too.

All right Bruce, quit beating around the bush! I'll say it for you. The Mildot master is literally the first thing I pick up right after the rifle. It takes precidence to extra ammo, it's that good. Mine lives right next my US Constitution daily, next to my heart in classes!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, where we're still not free, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 02:35:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.148)

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Allan/Pablito, Wake up Pablito the real Unertal Company is dead and that is how USO got the repair contract for the USMC Scopes, because the real company did not exist anymore. To say that just bexcause someone bought theUnertal name is the real company is happy talk. By the way has the new Unertal Co provided any scoipes yet? I mean they talked a bunch of stuff but who has one? USO optics has good scopes and I like the guys that run it. At first I didn't like them but they grew on me and they love building fine scopes. They even built one on my design and sell it for less than a MK4

On the US Optics version. If you read thier add it states they will be sending out the scopes after they fill the USMC Contract and projected after January. That being said USO is slow to get products out. I dont like that part of them. They had some problems with the varibles scopes, they produced about a year ago. That should never have happened but hell everone has recalls anymore. I just think when you build them by hand you should not have recalls. That being said I had to recall a few slings because a supplier gave me standard plastic hardware instead of delrin. The sliders broke. I had no way of knowing before the failures. They looked the same. USO had some bad erectors that they had someone else make for them. That is what caused the problem. They have since fixed that and I have several of the USO scopes I love. I beat the hell out of one today.

Pablito, I know you have loved Unertals Scopes forever, but in all honesty if the best the new compant can do is have some of the old Unertal designs to sell they wont compete with USO, Nightforce, Leupold or Schmidt and Bender. All are better scopes than any of the Unertal 30 year old designs.

Pablito, Now with that said, I cant wait to buy you a beer and a burger you old fart. We continue to disagree and maintain a friendship. You are a good man. LOL

Flash, when you quit being a cop did you become a lawyer. I would stay away from search and seizure advice, it changes daily. You are correct on how to measure group size for BR shooting. For HRT we look at it a different way.

Rick, one of my guys just got back from a basic FBI Sniper school. He said "They just made me run, no slings, all from the bipod prone, none of the advanced stuff you teach" I told him I teach the basics everyone but the FBI teaches. He needs to go to NM or Storm and learn some real field sniper techniques

Undude, tired after a day of teaching
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 02:44:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.58)

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Hot Dog!!

Stirred the pot a bit.......

Let me say that I firmly believe that everyone should know the mil-relation formula, how to translate 27" of drop and 15" of wind into a mil hold-off and elevation adjustment at 575 yards, and be able to do it on a scrap of paper with a stub of a pencil (if not in your head).

You can indeed lose your Mildot Master. If it's in your shirt pocket and gets shot up, though, you'll probably not going to play anymore.

And if you have a laser, by all means use that!!! If it works....again, ask Gooch.

Folks, it's just another tool in the box. It's easy to use, but you still have to prepare for the unexpected. Knowledge of MOA, mils, and your rifle/cartidge characteristics may let you get that snap shot off without resorting to any calculations, that you may not have time for.

The only objection that I have to doing the calculations on paper or in your head is the same objection that was voiced to me by an Albuquerque SWAT sniper (not Off. Rodriguez) who was enthusiastic over the prototype 3 yrs. ago......"It's kind of hard to do the math when you're hunkered down behind a trash can and somebody's shooting at you from the top of a building."

Remember, we put men on the moon using slide rules!

Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 03:20:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.242.198)

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Rick: Someone asked how to convert a drop chart to quarter minute clicks and I told him. If someone has a math question, I just answer 'em and let them use that answer however they want. I would never recommend screwing around with that kind of calculation in the field.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 03:21:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Fellers,
Just got a gift certificate from amazon.com, so I figger I'd git me some shootin' books. I plan on getting FM 23-10, and the USMC scout/sniper manual. I wanted to get Jim Owens' series of shooting guides but they didn't have them. They also had the SOTIC manual, but I seem to recall reading something here that it's not the real deal, Rick, you know anything about it? Any of youse guys gots any recommendations?
Later,
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 03:50:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.197)

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Gent's, ............
Please, no rock chunking, BUT, maybe I'm cornfused......all this talk of "drop".
Are you figuring " Bullet Drop", or "Bullet Path",?.............
Which is the way I understand it,you use the latter...... and make adjustments........
If you are using bullet "Drop", then you aren't going to get the right answers......tell me if I'm all washed up, or the terminology is understood by you, and I, am just not on your wavelength.......
Which, is a real possibility............(:

Two Shoes
In the land of Path, not Drop......
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 03:57:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.41)

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Texas Brigade Armory Update:

I spoke with Mike Lau today and yes he's still alive, kicking and building rifles. He asked me to convey a few things so here goes.

He is not going bankrupt and said that in addition to the backlog of rifles that he normally has, he recently had to work in a run of LEO tuneups. He also mentioned that he took the website down because he was getting too many orders for rifles (20 a month) and because it needed to be updated. Mike still builds every rifle personally and won't compromise on quality so he felt he had to do something to curtail the orders temporarily. Prices are going up as well. The M40A1/base price is going up $200 to 2K and the A4 is going up approximately $50. However, he did say he is considering a LEO discount for personal use rifles as well as a "departmental letterhead required" discount for duty rifles.

Mike is also working on a .22LR Ruger action based match rifle (I don't know the details on this).
 

Jeff,

Thanks for the http://www.ar15.com:1111/ address - slow as !#^^$##. Why they had to change the port and screw up good site response I'll never know.

breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 04:01:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.60.57.19)

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Steve Tassio please drop me a note. I understand that somebody claiming to be me is causing you some difficulties.

Michael
Michael <Mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 04:24:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

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Jim Mitchell, the January 2001 Precision Shooting has an ad by Lightforce USA that says they carry custom tapered mounts for Rem, Win, Weatherby, and Savage, both 1 and 2 piece (with two different angles: 40 MOA and 20 MOA). May raise your head a little high, as they're cut for the big bell (50 and 56mm) Night Force scopes.

1-425-656-1577 (Kent, Washington)
www.nightforceoptics.com

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 04:32:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

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Robert Tschiemer and Buggered 700PSS:

(sigh)

I purchased my 700PSS in the spring of '99, and it too featured a faulty crown. In my case it was not so cosmetic: beween that flaw and poor bedding the gun would only shoot 2 MOA at best. After a trip back to Remington (and a trip back, with a note saying it shot 1/2 MOA with *their* ammo...liars), I recut the crown and bedded it in MarineTex. Now it is one hell of a shooter, 1/2 MOA to 500 yards, but that was an awful lot of work to have to perform on a "turnkey" rifle. Personaly, I just picked up a brand new, never fired Winchester M70 Ranger in .30-06 from a pawn shop. How can I tell that it is unfired? Becasue it is the the very same brand new rifle I pawned there some 7-8 years ago when I was broke! Amazing...Anyway, this rifle will serve as raw materials for a future project...6.5-284, anyone?

Remington apparently put out a big batch of bad PSSs in early '99. They wont be getting any more of my money anytime soon. I'd rather DIY the thing than go through that again

BTW...who makes the best "tactical" bases for the M70?
 

-Tom
 
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 05:19:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

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Terry,

Agreed, no rock chunking! If that happened every time somebody asked a question, this forum would look like the Gaza Strip!

I tend to use "bullet drop" as opposed to "bullet path". The latter term is completely acceptable, and is widely used, by many knowledgeable folks. Lou Schwiebert is a friend of mine who makes Ballisticards, and he uses the term on his cards. When he and I talk, we both know what the other is saying.

If you have a 300 yard zero, for example, it is true that your bullet path will be above the line of sight of your scope at 100 and 200 yards. This makes a good argument for the term "bullet path" instead of "bullet drop."

On the other hand, if you are using a scope equipped with a BDC, it gets a bit blurry. Where is your "zero"? I like to "zero" at 300 yds. as the error is less at 100, but the scope is still "zeroed" at 100 yds. (turn the dial to 100 and you're on).

I guess the term "bullet drop" is simply a widely accepted term, and generally understood. It is, however, technically correct, in the sense that the bullet begins to drop as soon as it leaves the muzzle, relative to the line of bore.

Depending on where the scope is adjusted (where the line of sight intersects the line of bullet travel), the bullet could be said to "rise" relative to the line of sight, but it will not rise above the line of the bore.

Anyway, that's my humble but considered opinion. Of course, they say that everybody has an opinion, and everybody thinks that everybody else's stinks! I hope that's not the case here.

I see what you are saying, and I just use different terminology. I think we're both "right."

Kind of like whether you call the evening meal dinner or supper.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 06:45:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.118)

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Q: Those AR/M16 enthusiasts - I have a that the hammer that sticks in semi, ideas on a quick fix/ permamnet solution. If I don't hold the trigger in follow throught it is OK - but if I hold it the hammer does not release into the firing position. If it is rotated back to Safe it goes back into battery, or if I shake it.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 07:15:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

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I could use some help with AR-15 lower receiver assembly. I
made it as far as the Pivot Pin Assembly without any
major incidents. Of course I shot the pivot pin
detent across the room and behind a bookcase once.
God is on my side, I found it. After that I had the
detent aiming into a plastic bag to catch it if it got
away. Tip: I used a long, skinny, newspaper bag, but
a bread sack would work too. Anyway, the real problem
I'm having is not being able to get the pivot pin
detent spring and pivot pin detent pushed in far
enough to get the pivot pin into it's guide holes.
The detent and spring appear to be bottoming out.
I've pushed them with a punch as deep as they will go
and 1/16" of the detent is still sticking out. I did attempt to clear out the "spring and detent hole" with drill bit prior to inserting the spring. I don't believe there is anythin in it. In any
event, the detent CANNOT be pushed in to the point of
it being flush with mouth of the hole it is being
pushed in to. Therefore, the pivot pin cannot be
inserted into it's holes.

Any suggestions, tips, prayers?

The other question I have is, the detent is conical on
one end and flat with a slight bevel on the other.
Which end engages the spring and which end engages the
pivot pin? It's easier to get the spring and detent
to go into the receiver if the conical end is engaging
the spring, but is looks as if the pivot pin has a
hole in each end of its groove to perhaps receive the
tip of the conical end of the detent when the whole
mechanism is installed. Which is the proper way to
install the detent? Conical end engaging the spring,
or engaging the pivot pin?

Additional background: Bushmaster lower receiver. M & A parts kit. Post ban.
Matt Smith <usmyrmss@yahoo.com>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 08:07:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.57.142)

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OBERMEYER 6.5/08 LOAD DATA...

Would those of you who wanted Boot's match load data for the 6.5/08 please contact me with your mailing addresses. I unearthed the data sheets from my "hidden" storage (means I couldn't find it) and am ready to send it to you. Also, there is some data included for the .30/338 and a few others...

You can contact me at: wsaa@proaxis.com

Semper Fi,

Wes

P.S. Undude: My 16# grey tabby has decided that the "hangy thing" on your tactical slings is a great toy. Guess what I don't leave out! Cat, named "Tiny" is P.O.'d. Had to give him cat treats to get back in his good graces...:-)
Seems like I have a cat and a 90 lb White German Shepherd, named Shotzi, that want to be my office and "shop buddies".

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 09:56:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.15)

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Titan
In case your email is still FUBAR. Check is in the mail, should get it before Friday.
JC
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
big kid new toy, KY, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 11:01:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.40.14)

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Remington trigger: Pablito, thanks for the excellent article. You are right, it is written by a great writer and one who knows the subject as both a shooter and all around knowlegeable guy!

Anyway, I shared it with John Norrell and he also thought it was a good summary.

Norrell adjusted my trigger to 2 3/4 lbs which is what I wanted on this PSS, and it breaks sharp and clean like a pane of glass. What a change!

There was another problem due to a manufactuer's quality control that I had Norrell fix. I opened from Leupold a 3.5 x 10, 40 mm Tactical 3/4 mil dot that I put on this rifle and learned the allen screw (1 of 3) on the windage turret which allows you to spin the dial to zero the setting is too wide for the allen wrench. No other allen wrenches would fit it either, and I could not get it out. It was locked down, so I would not be able to zero the dial which is the best situation to be in if it is inoperable. But Norrell got it out for me and replaced it with another allen screw, and it works perfect now.

He is a true expert with the old school skills.

Thanks for your article as I will keep it in my library

Robert
tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 13:44:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.130.138.238)

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This problem with PSS has existed quite a while. Some of em stink. If ou want a good rifle stay with the Sendero's Or VSS models. Although most of the VSS models are good even the blued ones. I find that the stainless ones are the best. Yeah, I know ain't cool! Cause they shine. Then first thing you do is paint em anyway.
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 13:54:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Bruce,
thanks....I guess the differerence lies in using the BDC's, as opposed to 1/4" moa click scopes.

Where I'm still a tad discombobulated, is, say you have a 175, .308 load, @ 2666fps..........

Using your "formula", the bullet drop is -416.01 inches.
Your bullet "path", where the adjustments are usually made states
- 376.96 inches.

(i.e.), 37.96 moa's @ 1K........

Using the "drop", your adjustments would show 41.60 moa's @ 1K.

Which, if used, would be WAY off.....on a non BDC scope.

This is with a 100 yard Zero, and running clicks...........

I understand the 300 yard Zero,is basically a "battle', Zero, and never having used a BDC, I'm not familiar with the set up......

I will however take your advice as I have enroute a MK4M3, and this will be a new ballgame for me.

Any other hints, except the ones given?.

I understand on the 3.5x10M3, that you CAN actually 100 yard Zero theses scopes, but NOT the Mk4M3's............

So, is the Zero point on this scope considered 300 yards?.

If I am reading you correctly this is/ seems to be what you are alluding to.

Sinster Dave,
was at the range Saturday, met an old friend of yours, had a OD green color, and had a .243 stuffed into it, and the owner was happy as a lark.............((:

Titan, yeah, I reckon some of us on the DR fit MS. Reno's definition of "Extremists",a Bible, a pocket costituiton,I wonder if tracks.......Really would be the last straw........

Funny, in a sad sort of way, after 8 l o n g years of the inmates running the asylum, how Normal folk are now the ONES to "Watch Out For'.

Well, with ideology like that, they are for sure damn right,,,,,we are the ones they had best "Watch Out For".

Two Shoes

Mr. American, Zealot, Extremist.......and damn proud of it!!
Even Own Two Automobiles, does that make me a "Subversive?".
 
 
 
 
 

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 14:15:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.201)

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Come-ups:

Thanks to everybody for all the good info, both on and off line. Suddenly it's all clear!

Correct BC:

Next question. What is the correst BC for the 7mm SMK? So far I have found 3 different BC #'s for the 7mm 168 gr SMK. Normally I would presume the current BC# listed on the Sierra web site to be correct, but since it is so much lower than the other two BC #'s, plus it is also lower than the 7mm 175 gr SGK BC (which surprises me), that I'm not sure it's correct. The Sierra site BC# is also considerably lower than similar Nosler and Hornady 7mm 168 gr match bullet BC's. So what is the correct BC#?
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 14:46:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.98)

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TBA

Glad to hear Mike is still kickin'. I ordered my rifle a few years ago, and got it in a mere 6 months. When I ordered, his book was about ready to come out, and he had run some ads in Tactical Shooter. He let out a big sigh on the phone as he said he would probably have more work than he could handle.

My rifle shoots like a dream. This pic is of a quarter that I shot at 100 yards. That's three shots; Black Hills 168g Moly Match. If I do my part, the rifle shoots in the 'teens all day. I have taken numerous woodchucks, deer and other critters with it already. For 'chucks, I load Speer 130g TNT in front of 49g VarGet. Getting around 3126fps. Very accurate, and very explosive!

http://i6.yimg.com/6/db25e3b9/h/b7a66570/Quarter.jpg

Sorry to hear about all of you who have been waiting so long. The only consolation I can offer, is that when it arrives, the time spent waiting seems well worth it.
 

Lance Johnston <email@sgtlmj.com>
Osseo, Michigan, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 14:47:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.59.160)

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Ref:M3LR

If I remember correctly, a 175 SMK @ 2,650 should track closely to the .30-06 dial for our M3LRs. Can I get a "thumbs-up" on this?

Ref: Remington QC/QA

Don't expect too much from "Big Green".
The enemy of quality is; "Good enough."
"The heart of a rifle is still a Hart."

Ref: Profiles

OPSEC guys, if you fit a profile work on eliminating the indicators.
Watch your bumper & window stickers. Keep your weapons cases, bibles and pocket constitutions out of site and obey the traffic laws. Avoid triggering the curiosity of law enforcement. A child car seat is always a plus. If you regularly have firearms in the car a "Green Peace","PETA" or "HCI" sticker in the window might cause a LEO to skip the gun questions.
Have your license, registration and insurance card immediately available. Keep your hands in sight. Don't make any sudden moves and when asked a question simply reply with,"BaaaBaaa".
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 14:57:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

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Matt. I posted this on "Thefiringline" some time ago. Get the tool first.
 

Before you begin the job, you need a reassembly tool. The most common ones available and the one we used in armorers school was an "L" shaped rod - from $3.50 to about $8. A hole is drilled at the end of the straight end to reinsert the detent sping and detent plunger. Some folks use a clevis pin bought at a hardware store. To disassemble the factory pin, ensure weapon is unloaded. Remove upper receiver and set it aside. With the front take down pin in the open position as far as it will go, insert a punch through the small hole on the takedown pin front to rear. Push the detent down into the receiver to clear the takedown pin slot and, while holding the detent pin down, rotate your punch, also rotating the takedown pin so that a solid side of the pin is presented to the detent pin. The takedown pin is now free to pull out of the receiver. Before pulling the pin out, have some way of catching the detent and spring. When the takedown pin is clear, the detent will launch into space and you will NOT find it.

To re-install, insert the installation tool through both takedown pin receiver bossing holes from the left. Align the hole in the tool with the detent spring hole in the front face of the receiver. Using exceptional care, place the spring through the tool into the receiver hole, followed by the detent plunger, pointy side out. Using your punch, push the detent plunger into the receiver until you can rotate the installation tool, trapping the detent spring and plunger in its proper position. Using your takedown pin, align it horizontally with the receiver bossing holes from the right. The end of the takedown pin must be hard (flush) against the end of the installation tool and axially aligned. In a fast, smooth motion, push the installation tool out of the receiver with the takedown pin, taking exceptional care not to free the trapped detent spring and plunger. You may want to do this inside a clear plastic ziplock bag to recover the detent plunger if -- I should say "when" -- it flies out of the receiver. Once the takedown pin is through the right hand bossing, rotate it to the correct position, slot to rear until you hear/feel the detent engage the slot. You're done!

If your spring and detent aren't seating fully in the receiver, most likely, something is in the way. Newer receivers have an air bleed hole about 1/3 of the way down the hole. You should normally see the spring through it. Stick a GunScrubber tube in there and blow out all the crud and manufacturing trash. Hole should be almost 3 inches deep. Usually a detent gets stuck in there when someone tries to "test fit" it. It won't come out.. don't even try. Should that be the case, cut the length of the detent off the spring, grinding the end smooth so that it doesn't get stuck in the side of the hole. Then install as above.

FWIW, replacing that friggin detent is the hardest thing an AR style rifle offers in maintenance headaches. Good luck.

Sorry so long guys.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
CLW, FL, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 15:12:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.56.8)

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A friend and myself have been shooting his new DPMS AR with that new heavy upper and a 26in SS barrel. Its firts "groups" were in excess of 3 inches, after 80 rounds it is now shooting about 2 MOA, with some clean bore shoots putting 2 rounds about 1/2 MOA, then the 3rd just takes off about an inch or two. Fouled it is right back to the 2 or 3 MOA groups. Is this a normal break-in?
Jon <M21sws@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 15:22:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.189)

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Check out the photo at the bottom of this news article:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/526985.asp
 

-L
 
 
 
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 15:38:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

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Bruce E & "sinister" - I received a number of responses back on the savage bases, thanks for the offer for help, I think my buddy is good to go.

My partner and I went to the range this weekend. The 20 degree temp and gentle breeze combine to create a splendid re-creation of the Arctic! I'm guessing somewhere around -10 with the wind chill. We shot for about 2 hours, the last 1/2 hr prone and enjoyed exclusive use of the range, which is extremely rare in this populous state of ours.

The results are as follows...

The George Gardner build AR10 in .260, firing 142 gr HPBT in Remington brass with rem standard LR primers with 40 gr of Varget averaged 2775 fps with signs of overpressure. I fired one three shot group off the bench with a .72 MOA. This rifle still doesn't have 50 rounds through it, as I have not been able to get a good load build until now. I believe between 38 and 39 gr of varget will prove to deliver my target velocity.

After playing with several other rifles on the chrony, developing a 69 gr and 55 gr load with benchmark, I elected to have some fun and get re-aquatinted with my 20" SKS. I asked my partner to spot "with the naked eye" as I needed to sight in the Williams peep I had recently installed. I pointed out a "apple sized" rock and asked for gross corrections..

the report was "hit, hit, hit, 1 inch low, hit, hit, 1 inch low, hit". MUCH TO MY SURPRISE, the rifle was delivering very consistent groups with the Russian "El cheapo" hollow points and was a delight to shoot. I consistently under estimate the utility of this rifle as a "trunk or truck carbine". Just something to think about when you have $200 burning a hole in your pocket.

you can check out some shots at the range at my photo album sight...

http://community.webshots.com/album/9850343ghQcVDGGDi
 
 
 
 

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 15:42:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

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Come-ups:

Thanks to everybody for all the good info, both on and off line. Suddenly it's all clear!

Correct BC:

Next question. What is the correst BC for the 7mm SMK? So far I have found 3 different BC #'s for the 7mm 168 gr SMK. Normally I would presume the current BC# listed on the Sierra web site to be correct, but since it is so much lower than the other two BC #'s, plus it is also lower than the 7mm 175 gr SGK BC (which surprises me), that I'm not sure it's correct. The Sierra site BC# is also considerably lower than similar Nosler and Hornady 7mm 168 gr match bullet BC's. So what is the correct BC#?
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 15:58:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.98)

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SPECIAL FORCES SKIS AND SNOWSHOES
A few years ago I aquired a pair of skis from a 10th Special Forces SOTIC instructor.
I believe he said they were made by Eric Skis. I can't establish this with the markings on them. They have Silveretta and TX2 on them. The skis have metal edges and the bindings allow you to unhook them in the rear to use for cross country as well as down hill. I don't ski and can't seem to locate a site for Eric.
I'm considering selling them so I can invest in other cold weather items but wouldn't be able to answer questions about them nor would I be able to name a fair price.
Any SF or mountian troopers out there willing to help me out? I'd also like to know what type of snow shoes 10th group are currently using.
Thanks in advance,
Don

Don <don@libertyoutfitters.com>
Pikes Peak, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 16:33:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.247)

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Hi, another silly question.

Why Mil-DOTs, as opposed to Mil-Hashes, or Mil-squares or rectangles? Right now I'm trying to decide on a scope as the first part of putting together a good long-range rifle.
Looked at the M3, but we civilians (I'm a retired AF linguist) can only get the football dots. To me this seems to unnecessarily complicate the math, making the system less effective.
Looked at the Tasco 10x with the round mil-dots, but I want to be able to use it for hunting also, so fixed power is out.
Looking at the IOR 2.5-10x42x30mm in the SC PX with the MP-8 ranging reticle or modified mildot (doesn't say whether round or football). Do they make this in a 4.5-14x42 also?
It seems to me that the MP-8 type of reticle would make it much easier to judge fractions of a mil. Why not take it a step farther and add .25 mil hashes? Perhaps that would make things too cluttered for quick use though.
Are there benefits to the round mildots that I'm missing? Better visibility under stress? You guys don't seem the types to use something just for traditions/habits sake.

Ut Fiat Libertas
(Marines aren't the only ones with a cool latin phrase)
Samal

Samal <Knife_1@hotmail.com>
Pinchatooly, PA, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 16:41:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.91.144.15)

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Kevin OTGWN-
If the hammer is going forward without your releasing the trigger- BAD STUFF. You need new parts ASAP.
I assume, however, that you are referring to the hammer sticking "down". If this is so, take the hammer out of the receiver. The rear of the hammer (top up) has the "big curl" and under that is the "little curl" that the hammer spring sits just under. (Please excuse the non-technical terms). You probably have a small burr catching on your sear/trigger. An extreme case of carbon buildup in the same area would cause the same thing. File down the burr gently-too much will cause problems. If the trigger had the burr, you should see the hammer stick down all the time.

Hope this helps- Mike T
 

Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 16:48:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

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Robert French...
>>"I am particularly intersted in bench rest shooting."<<

If you are REALLY interested in "bench rest" shooting, none of the guns you mentioned will suit you.

the PSS's (a GOOD one), and the Stealth are half minute rifles... and current bench rest 30 cal rifles are shooting around 1/10" ON A BAD DAY!!!... these kind riffles are in the $2000 to $4000 bracket.

If, on the other hand, you mean that you just want to fool around shooting from a rest, then the Stealth is a true winner... lotsa guys on this site shoot them, and no one has made a complaint as yet... The PSS's are ok, but the quality varies, and you need to know how to pick one, or you could get a lemon... and a lemon will break your heart (and your wallet, trying to get it right)

The average Stealth will shoot circles around the average PSS...

A Savage sniper riffle??? WHAT?...

UnDude...
The old Unertl company is NOT dead, it has just been sold... along with the name, a common practice in the business world.
It happenes to airlines, and automobile companies also!!
Unertl is alive and getting up to speed.
And as for 30 year old designs, When John Unertl died, they were running full production shifts, and were back ordered for 3 years... the demand is that good!!!
USO should have such problems.

Enuff... you like USO, I think the guy's a dingleberry... we disagree (so what else is new ;))) The second round of beers and cheeseburgers are on me :)) You're a stand up (and rattle) kinda guy ;)

Tom...
>>"very same brand new rifle I pawned there some 7-8 years ago"<<
How much more did it cost to get it out ;)

DROP and PATH...
Drop is from the line of the bore... a pure gravity figure.
Path is the + or - from the line of sight, and will change with sight height, and/or zero range... that being said, I'll run for my hide ;))

Two Shoes...
Then I guess I'm at the bottom of the barrel... own a Giddion's bible,
(in honor of the Sky Spirit [I'm Cheyenne descent], and "Jeremiah, the Bull Frog")... the Constitution, and enuff firearms to start a revolution in many South American countries (not my orignal line;)...
A-N-D, I drive a 4wd Jungle Truck!!
Has this world gone to shit, or what???
Jannett Reno, SUCK THIS (gesture sensored!!)

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)...
The 175SMK @ 2685 will track the 30-06 cam IN YARDS!!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Unertl is back in business, and the Republicans are in the White House... I mean, is life good, or what??? in the very nice, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 16:54:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.111)

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'Lito...

"4wd Jungle Truck"?? What kind of "Jungle Truck"? Something like an ol' Series Land Rover? Like mine?
Actually, the last 4 automobiles that I've owned are 4x4s... I sold my Cherokee, still have a Wagoneer parked, and 2 Rovers.
 

Robert French:

Don't listen to Pablito! Scratch that, ALWAYS listen to 'lito, but not on the Savage!! ;-)

The Savage is the "econo" sniper... it WILL give you the best bang for the buck. My Savage will outshoot me still, and cost less than half what a Remington 700 VS would have set me back. And I'd say that it's more accurate than half of the new Remingtons out there. The Remington cleans up nicely, has more aftermarket items available... the Savage's stock sucks and the factory trigger isn't great... but they work.

If you've got the cash, get a custom gun. If you you've got a stringent budget, the Savage will do nicely. Winchester... good gun, as-is. Remington... will possibly need some work, but should turn out to be nice. IMHO, YMMV, yada yada yada, etc etc etc....
 

L8R, Semper Fi, Dosvidanya, ciao....

-L
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 23:15:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.232)

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I was just wondering if you guys could steer me in the right direction. I am interested in purchasing a .223 target/hunting bolt action rifle. I can only spend a limited amount of money. Also, what would be a good scope for the rifle? Thanks in advance ROSTERFARIANS.
Chris Pel <chrispel8@hotmail.com>
NY, NY, USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 23:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.184.105.135)

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Pablito, are you sure "The average Stealth will shoot circles around the average PSS...?"

If so, I'm dumping this Winchester as fast as possible and getting a PSS. I'd rather be shooting LITTLE circles ;-)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, February 06, 2001 at 23:41:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Just saw a disturbing piece on CBS, "Eye on America" with Dan Rather. Seems that a woman accidentally shot her child with a Remington M700 while in the act of flicking the safety off. Now reports are coming out of the woodwork claiming that the rifle has fired in this manner on many occasions and is inherently unsafe AND Remington's own records show it. I myself have never seen the phenomenon described actually occur but have read about it in a peice of Jeff Cooper's work. There will be a follow-up piece tomorrow night.
I know the accidental loss of any life is tragic (especially that of a youth) but it seems to me there was a violation of at least one rule of firearms safety: "Never let the muzzle cover anything you do not wish to destroy."
I can hear the rancor now for legislation banning the evil, unsafe model 700 Remington rifle. Funny coincidence how it is the platform of choice for Police, SWAT team, benchrest and varmint shooters who are concerned with getting the most precision and accuracy available in a modern rifle. Don't think we have heard the last of this one. I am sure the anti's will have a heyday with this one, especially if a bunch of lawyers and politicains get involved. Comments?
Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
South Central, MI, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 00:19:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.45.200.215)

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Flash...

>>"What is the correst BC for the 7mm SMK?"<<

About .490-ish.
The 175 has a higher BC because... it is heavier... linger boat tail, and the point doesn't have a disrupting hollowpoint.
It IS a more slippery bullet.
The hornady A-Max bullets are the most slippery bullets around... they ROCK (and fly like a bat out of hell;).

Samal...
The M3-LR is only available with football dots, whether you are military, or civilian. The MK4-M3 can be had with football dots from Premier, or round dots directly from Lupita (sometimes mistakenly refered to as "Leupold")...
The IOR has Mil-"Hash" marks, and is a fine scope!

Leslie ...
A dirt brown '91 four door Montero (a knock off of the rover)... my rugrat named it... it's soooo tall, that at 6'4", I can't see over it, on my tip-toes! I would love to have a 2A rover, but don't have the 20K-bucks for it.

... actually the Savage is a pretty good gun, but the stocks, and triggers eat it, and even Savage lovers will tell you that ;))
Their target or match model with the vented, laminated stock is REAL NICE!... and comes with a itty-bitty test target.

CDC...
How come you don't cut me no slack ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Unertl is back in business, and the Republicans are in the White House... I mean, is life good, or what??? in the very nice, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 00:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.104)

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Str8shot...
Nobody ever says "I shot them by accident"...
... it's ALWAYS, "The gun went off by itself (fill in your favorite part to blame).

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Unertl is back in business, and the Republicans are in the White House... I mean, is life good, or what??? in the very nice, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 00:44:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.104)

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Well fellas thought I'd let you know in case you missed the hack job
CBS did on all the dangerous Remington 700's out there!
tonite's 6:00 news told about the unintentional discharging when
disengaging the safety.
Yup real smart people displayed, example a woman in Montana aiming
her muzzle at her son while doing this, it went off, she claims and
he's dead.
Would you believe at their church no less than 14 people had Rem 700's
that did the same thing... can you believe that?? what are the odds??
How about the guy who they displayed shot his finger off when this
same incident occured, wow I always put my finger over the muzzle
when I disengage my safety too! just to make sure the BB doesn't
roll out when tilted.
stay tuned tommorow nite for more,same time same place, seems they
wanna push this one real good! We know the M/O don't we??????
That's all fer now kids,
I wanna throw out a shout for George Gardner, he's doin great work
and his Cooper 5R barrels are the WHIP!!! this weekend proved
they gobble up and spit every variation I could make into tight
little black eyes.

PS:Keep yer eyes on Israel it's bout ta Blow!!! and lotsa Bro's are gonna be scrubbin sand from the actions soon.

Duster
Duster <mcgrath@tc3net.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 00:47:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.91.142.136)

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Jon' what is the load you are shooting. But to answer your question it is not normal to shoot 2 or 3 inch groups in a rig like that assuming your talking 100 meters or yards.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 00:50:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Damn got beat to the punch on the Rem 700 story.
OK How about this, seems the watchdog groups of the Left
have been monitoring certain sites that are deemed "Hate Sites"
practicing "Hate Speech" certain individuals have been visited
by our Federal Bros and harrased at home.
Others have had their ISP providers visited concerning the discontinuation of these "Spewers of Hate" .
What did these individuals do ? simply debate a Liberal
Piece of shit on a Forum concerning such HATEFUL topics like
The problem with the illegal alien influx as of late.
Think this couldn't happen on GW's watch? hell I think it's
gonna get worse.
If you find this hard to believe go to the hateful site
Newsmax.com go to Forum and check out current events on top.
Danboone's post.
I would venture to say if that post is monitored , and labled as
hate then this site is definitely a "Hate site on steroids."
Any comments Bravo, Lito others ???
Welcome to the third Reich, thought police be damned!
"Night of the long knives"???? sound familiar?
Hope this ain't too controversial fer ya guys
Duster
Duster <mcgrath@tc3net.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 01:19:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.91.142.136)

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Sounds like the Church members all had the same trigger mechanic. Dan Rather probably adjusted those triggers for em.

The new Savages shoot pretty good if you get the pillar bedded ones. The fact that the barrel doesn't fit in the middle of the stock usually doesn't matter much. The trigger can be adjusted to a nice 4 lbs or so and is fairly dependable after it's been worked by someone that knows more than a church full of Montanans. Like the Lito say, if you wanna good stock get that Laminated one.
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 01:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Bruce - Rats man, you didn’t let the pot boil enough! I will say this to all that read this forum, If you do not have one of Bruce’s Mil Dot Masters, you are screwing up by the numbers! His item is a jewel for preventing errors during shooting in range estimation. Yes, you need to practice doing it in your head as dark and dead batteries, brush and dead batteries, as well as Murphy and dead batteries will screw up other methods. However, that little slip stick is the way to go! To give and odd example, you have a tank barrel that is 5 meters long but turned at 35 degrees. What is the range? Use the slip card just as if it were a slope measurement and read 5 meters and then go to the 35 degree answer. Viola (as they say in France), your answer! Also agree on the “bullet drop” thing. Most zero so that the bullet path is figured in such a way that most of the chart is actually a path or “drop” below line of sight. Thus it is called bullet drop by most of us. But now dinner or supper depends upon time and amount!! :-)

Mike - Know all too well about the level of training at the FBI school. Of course then again it was I that made the wise a** comment about Marines not being Jarheads because a jar denotes something useful and that it is capable of holding something. Then found out that 90 percent were former……. :-)

CDC - I am aware of what you were answering and I was showing a simpler way to get the answer. Sometimes you guys that can actually do the math, unlike myself whom it is a struggle, wind up going around it the hard way. I know because my daughter was a math major n her pre-cop stage of life. She would get the butt because I would get the same answer but easier. That was my intent and also to show that the 1 as opposed to 1.047 is a .47 inch error at 1000. Another words not worth the effort. If you use Excel then it is very easy to make a chart using the vallue of moa instead of all that adding and subtracting of 100. :-)

Rich S. As far as I can tell it is a manual with more errors then you would care to own.

Samal - One reason for the round is that certain shapes and forms, while attempting to align objects trick, the eye. One of those is the straight line or hash mark. The eye “balloons” the cross point of the hash and the reticule line. This causes the user to place the target too far below and /or above the line. This in turns causes an error in range. This was a very common error with the old ART I scope with its horizontal stadia lines on the vertical crosshair. Round versus football. I like the round as I can break down the measurements into tenths with ease and interpolate into .05ths without too much trouble. Adding more to the scope, vis a vis more hash marks for .25 and .5 between the mil dots is a real pain and creates a very busy field of view.

Lito - You find slack in the dictionary in the same general area as sympathy. But A LOT closer to S**T. My advise, you want slack, cut your safety rope. :-)

Well guess I have thrown enough crap around for now will await incoming formt he local Marine contngent in my bomb shelter.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 01:24:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.49)

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OK all you Stealth shooters give me some feedback. I will probably be buying one in the near future, and I want to be sure I am buying a shooter.
thanks, Robert
Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
Boissevain, VA, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 01:38:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.50.80.71)

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Funny about them Remingtons, I seem to recall there was an issue relating to the safetys on the old Rem721 and I think the 722s. I know I've seen this Remington safety thing on the news before, about 10 years ago maybe slightly more, I remember the national news making a bit deal about a guy who was suing Remmy over their safety design and his having accidentally shot his foot. Here it is again, biting us in the ass. Let's see, could this be the end of adjustable triggers on the Remingtons? We know Remington has been trying to cover their yellow and green asses from a liability standpoint, anyone think this might kill it even more?

The CBS news is just now coming on here in Ca. and I am going to record it, I think I might record the audio file and put it on my webpage for those who missed it and want to atleast hear what they missed.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 01:46:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

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Rick: You are positively the first person who has ever accused me of doing anything the hard way.

All: About these 5% here and 3% there errors that don't matter; One of the basic principles of statistics is: Error accumulates.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 02:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Well, just watched the CBS thing, I think it was basically just a tease to get you to watch tomorrow when they will continue their report. It almost sounds as if the kid that died in the accidental discharge just happened to be very unlucky in that he may not have even been in the same room, still the mom was neglegent in that the gun was not handled in a positively safe manner.

A buddy of mine had a "near hit" one day at his own home, he left his defense revolver sitting on the counter of the kitchen sink and he was outside working on the house. Next thing he knows he hears a "bang" and a bullet flys out the wall just a couple feet away from him. Seems his wife walked up and decided to test out the trigger on the revolver without checking to see if it was loaded, she managed to put a hole through the kitchen wall and right out the side of the entry way of the exterior wall.

Thing about dumb luck is you can't present it with even the slightest opportunity to turn into tragedy. Hot damned if ol Murphy doesn't love to prove it can happen no matter how slight or random the chance of it happening.

I actually bothered to goto the CBS website and I found their "indepth investigation" there, I don't think there is much need to put the audio up on my website when they have interview transcripts on their homepage.

http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,269769-412,00.shtml
 
 
 
 

Then I've got an actual question for those out there that are still tuned in after the CBS garbage.

I'm curious as to what kind of builds one can do with an old Mauser. I know there are different grades of receivers and stengths that are associated with the different models. I'm thinking of doing a custom build with one of the Mausers if I can find a good action. I'm also curious what kind of chamberings I can get with minimal or zero work on the bolt face, I'm hoping to be able to rebarrel it to a varmint chambering, something like a 22-250 or maybe a BR type case where the chambering is based on the 308Win case. I'd also like to know what type of chamberings I can take advantage of without sacrificing the designed pressure enevelope of the receiver.

I'm looking at this from a learning experience point of view and I'd really rather not screw up the Remington 721 I've got waiting for a rebarreling, I'd rather use something a bit cheaper to make all my mistakes on. If you have any suggested books or reading material that you can point me towards that would be helpful also. I'll be damned if I'm not excited as heck to put to use some of these machine shop classes I've been taking.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 02:26:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

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Duster...
>>"Any comments Bravo, Lito others ???"<<
ATF, FBI...

'lito?... what 'lito... We ain't got no steeenkin' 'litos!! ;)

'yote bate...
I went and tol' them liberal church going types not to adjust them triggers... but they jus' don' ever listen to us con-sur-vit-tives!!

Rick-ster...
Damn man!! I don't get no sympathy neither ;)

Robert French...
you get a Stealth, you got a GUN!!
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 02:28:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.104)

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Safety Tip - I just wanted to pass this on to everyone to promote shooting safety. I'm a physical therapist at a VA hospital and just saw a Vet who is lucky to be alive. I love shooting but have never been into muzzleloading, yet I know you are supposed to discharge the firearm at the end of a hunt.
Apparently this guy and others, to prevent cleaning their rifles, figured that if he removed the percussiion cap but kept it loaded it would be safe. Anyway when he slid his rifle out from under his truck seat an apparent static charge ignited the powder and he took a .50 cal ball through his hand and barely missed his abdomen. He lost a finger and shattered his wrist but an old Vietnam Vet surgeon saved his hand. I don't know if this is a common practice with muzzleloaders but pass this on if it applies to anyone you know.
I love reading the Roster and have learned a great deal from everyone.

Buck

Buck Schutter <cschutter2@earthlink.net>
Bartlett, TN, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 02:44:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.16.31)

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'Lito,
Mine's a SIII instead of a IIa...and it DIDN'T cost 20 thou!! A REALLY nice one can be had for ~10, and if you can work on one (which anyone can, they're that simple!) you can get one around 5000 (or less, like mine). There's a strong internet contingent online, check out lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 02:58:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.169)

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CRAP!!!

I hate it when I botch the html....
 

'Lito,

Mine's a SIII instead of a IIa...and it DIDN'T cost 20 thou!! A REALLY nice one can be had for ~10, and if you can work on one (which anyone can, they're that simple!) you can get one around 5000 (or less, like mine). There's a strong internet contingent online, check out the BBS at www.roversnorth.com as a start - if you want more info, I can send you lots... just ask. There are plenty of 20 thou ones out there, too, but if you were gonna spend THAT much, get either a Defender or something rare like a Dormobile (and... I've got a friend with a Dormy for sale if anyone's interested).

Hmmm... Savage stocks and triggers, where have I heard gripes about them before? LOL...
 
 

Rick,
SO... just what did that group that was 90% former Marines have to say? Anything that Wes or I need to add??
;-)
 

AND!
I have to confess, I don't have a Mildot Master.... because my Lupita Tactical doesn't have mildots! It's the first thing on my purchase list after I get something to use it with....
 
 

L8R,

-L
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 03:17:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.169)

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Lady and Gents,

I suggest you visit Iron Brigade Armories updated website. You'll note some nice changes and the fact that one of the calibers they now chamber in is 6.5 X .284! Nice to see an experiment of mine go full circle and become a reality.

Norm says they have three que'd up already and more orders coming in...

Rickster...I don't mind Marine jokes. We tell them about all the other services. Now, where do you live?...;-)

Will start getting 6.5/08 data out to you that sent me there MAILING address. This is a hard copy only proposition.

S/F,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 03:27:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.195)

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Lots going on the last few days..Springfield loaded models..If you shop around you can get them for LESS than $5oo if you have a friendly ffl. holder you can deal with..Bought one for a young guy who started shooting with us this past year for $465. It runs great right out of the box so far[about 1000-1200 rds] with the only glitches being some of my crudball reloads..

The Remington safety deal [if it were true] would be a non issue if folks ALL knew about rule #2...That's where the bullet comes from people,whether you're expecting it or not, so you point that hole somewhere else.....As to all the church folks who had the same thing happen to them; I wonder how many of them are millionaires and if that's catching also; might go to Montana and join up[body armor mandatory]...

Friend called tonight telling me that in NYC you can now make a annonymous call turning in someone with a gun[illegal??carried? don't know] and get $500 from the cops...Would this be a great way to aggrevate you're anti-gun associates in that town or what??..Maybe if this hot line was flooded with reports that targeted mostly HCI supporters????? the possibilities are endless....
 

The new .22-250 VS project is on hold due to the demise of my 20+ year old 16X Loopy... Has to be an internal problem since it throws shots randomly all over three inches or more at a hundred..After removal from the rifle it rattled in the turret area when shaken..Put an old 12X on and will try it this week when I can get up to my bench...16 will probably go to Or. if 12X groups OK on the rifle. If the 12 doesn't work I've got trouble!!

outa here
 
 
 
 
 

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Reduced to loading 444 Marlin and still in a cast in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 03:38:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.52)

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Buck - .50 Cal Muzzle loader N.D.

Well - looks like that one was not properly unloaded. We get taught/teach to NOT let the shooter off the firing line until we manage to either discharge the shooter's muzzle loader, or do lots of voo-doo to nullify the charge inside.

(that was incredibly stupid of that shooter - worse yet - man I hate that he had to lose a finger and put up with an aching wrist to learn that lesson).

Ken

Ken Hunter <Hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 03:48:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

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Wes - Iron Brigade Armory Website:

Wes - if you like what you see on that site - then tell your friends.
We host that site for Norm Chandler. My partner, Sandy reworked alot of the layout on that site.

(Ducking for incomming - for sneaking an advertising plug in)

Ken :)

Ken Hunter (AKA. Chainsaw ) <308Towed@RifleMen.net>
Nokesville, v, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 03:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

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Buck; the standard operating procedure in the case you mention is to lower the hammer to cover the hole to prevent such things. If the hole is left open sparks can ignite. This is not to say that it didn't fall down the muzzle since the guy got hit in the hand he probably had the stock in the floor board and the barrel pointing up.
Another thing Davy Crocket wouldn't do less he was drinkin.

YOu all can look for a major onslaught on guns. It just goes with the territory. Any dumbass they can get to say something against guns on camera is gonna come out of the woodwork. They're testin GW and his resolve. It's bound to happen. JJ would say, Stand by your horses!
 
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 03:57:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Re; Muzzle loading ND even without a cap....See rule #1....................
 
 

outa here again
 
 
 
 

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
More 9mm for IDPA tomorrow/ 34 days in the gun room and not nuts yet, WV, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 04:00:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.52)

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I would appreciate any comments or ideas on a start load for 300 Win Mag. I'm shooting a custom built M70 action, Rock 5R barrel, on a Choate Ultimate Stock ( can't afford the real deal ). Good Glass etc....

I have worked up some nice loads with 4064 and am starting to play with H4831. Any comments that may save time and effort would be appreciated. Please e-mail me any response that you may have. I don't get to the Roster as often as I should.

reptech@televar.com

Grogan <reptech@televar.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 04:18:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.152)

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Hello all
Re. Gillie suits
Could someone direct me to a source of a unscented fire retardant? What is a dye that will work with burlap? Is there a place to go for more information about making this suit? My son has six more years before he can sign up for the USMC:-))
Thanks
Tom <longrangecountry@hotmail.com>
AZ, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 05:04:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.229.88.54)

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lito'..........
probably the ONLY time I'll ever get to correct you!!!!!!HA!!!!
liberal church type people don't even know how to spell RAMINGTON!!!, much less adjust the triggers....

Two Shoes

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 05:14:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.28)

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Terry 2-Shoes: glad to hear your buddy's happy with the old green. Sounds like a nice combination.

If I were paranoid, it sounds like CBS wants to lump Rem 700s in that group of "Unsafe weapons" so Housing and Urban Development can sue the sh!t out of a riffle-maker for an unsafe product.

Savages: the Kalashnikov of in-production bolt rifles. No-frills, always goes bang, universally respected but you may not buy one on your own.

A 26-inch tube on a DPMS: is the barrel free-floating? I know the Oakland, CA PD had some quality control "Issues" with DPMS on a fleet buy. Jon, is your buddy shooting from a sandbag? One of the problems with long/ very heavy barrels with the AR is the tendency for the upper to "bow" because of the weight.

Happy 90th Birthday, Dutch Reagan! Wish you all the best.
 
 

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 05:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

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Markwell: that's what I want to hear, lots of good Springfield stories. It'll make it easier for me to put some dough into this one on the ASSUMPTION that it'll come back from the factory 100% and working right. THIS TIME. To date it's never fired 100 rounds without jamming at least once. As for $500 to turn in a pistolero, that stinks of having TOO MUCH DOUGH. If the police are bribing the people with their own money, then they've hit the end of the democracy that Jefferson spoke of, and should be disassembled. That goes for Yankee Central too.

Patron 'Lito: as I was always told, you can always find sympathy between sh** and syphilus in the dictionary ;-)

Master Rick: I'm not going to jump you on the Marine bashing, after all, that's normal for boyscouts HA! So let's see here: it's dark, can't see the mildot master too well, I'm in a hurry. Got two choices - mental math, or my pick. Detach the telescope and go to battle sights!

Duster: on hate speech and such, I would question which party is the more "open". In the primaries I voted for a black man (Alan Keyes), although I could have voted for a woman (Liz Dole). Did we see anything but rich European descent middle aged power brokers on the demo-rat side? Take a peek at the communist manefesto, and the goals of communism as entered in the congressional record. They speak of labelling people who speak out just this way. Of course the demo-rats took that aspect of the record and declared it a 50 year platform plan.

Andy's Dad: I've got a slightly different take on it. If pulled over, I depart the vehicle and lock it, but I keep my travel permits on me. Thus, when he comes to ask, he isn't shocked or dismayed by the loaded battle carbine right next to me. Worked well in Colorado anyway, explained that I didn't want to worry him. He cut me some MAJOR slack and wrote the ticket for 85 (max that I wouldn't have to go to see a judge RIGHT THEN for) as a return gesture. I can tell you one brand of ECM that was thrown out the window a few miles later!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, where Fords still roar, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 05:37:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.127)

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Remington 700 and ADs (or NDs, if you prefer):

I know I have been something of a Remington basher here of late, but the one thing I havent faulted them on is their trigger. Yes, you can set it up wrong and bad things can happen, but its a pretty honest piece of gear, overeall. Its certainly safe enough when it leaves the factory, what with 14 lbs and an inch of creep as-issued. Hell, at that rate, the safest thing out there is what you are actually trying to hit with it...

Anybody bother to read Remingtons reply to CBS News on their website? Aside from the expected condolences and expressions of sorrow, the site has this to say:

*

"Remington prefers not to comment on pending or potential litigation. However, we do think it important to note that the rifle involved in the Barber shooting was manufactured in 1972 and, as we understand, acquired by Mr. Barber used 10 to 12 years ago.

Several weeks after the accident, representatives from Remington and the Barbers conducted a preliminary examination of both the condition and the performance of the rifle. Among other abnormal conditions, the inspection found the inside of the rifle to be heavily rusted, and the trigger engagement screw, safety lever and fire control mechanism all had been either adjusted or removed and reinstalled after the rifle left the factory. As to its performance, the rifle passed all the function tests performed in this preliminary inspection, and fired only when the mechanical safety was in the "fire" position and the trigger was pulled."

*

Personaly, I like to remove the heavy rust from my trigger group once every decade or so, but some people call me anal...

Now, the question is, will CBS bother to report Remingtons reply in its entirety on tomorrows installment?

I bet you money that they play the "shocking revelation! Firearms are not subject to federal product saftey regulations!" angle, as 60 Minuites did several years ago.
 

On the plus side, this is all great material for my term paper in EC 506: Economics and the Law.

-Tom
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 05:43:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

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REF: Tactical Tailor

I just took delivery of some product from Tactical Tailor in Tacoma, WA. This is the best built stuff I've ever seen. They will now be my prefered source for field gear.

REF: Gun Liability

I have some personal experience with gun liability litigation. I was once the Director of Design Engineering for Crosman Corp. We built BB guns by the trainload. I spent a large part of my time doing work related to product liability issues. (tech. inspections, depositions, etc.). It is a brutal, frustrating expensive process. But, in the end we won. We would fight armed with facts and we would win. We built good safe products and warned our customers of their hazzards and spend huge amounts of money in an effort to educate gun safety. Inspite of all these efforts the law suits keep coming. You fight, you win, you pay and then you start over. Financial exhaustion is the greatest threat here because even winning costs a lot of money.
Our European customers couldn't understand the "American Way". They all figured if you shot yourself or someone else it's your fault not the gun. Those people might talk funny but they're pretty smart.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 10:17:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.42)

---

Bravo...
Get a 19 pound "Wolff" spring for your gun, and your battery problems will leave town.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 11:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.21)

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Bravo......"never more than 100 rounds without a jam"?????What kind of ammo do you feed your 1911?? What brand of magazines are you using??
 

I agree with "Lito, try a heavier than stock recoil spring...I've run 18.5 lbers. in my .45ACP guns since my early IPSC days in the late '70s and never had problems....Also, get some Wilson mags, they are the best and last for ever.. My buddy ken Hackathorn has some that have been in continuous use since their introduction in 1980..I know I've got some almost that old..Next to Wilson mags, I prefer the old Colt satin nickle finished mags and have several early 1911s with those mags dedicated to those pistols... However, I can run ANY wilson mag in any of my guns with no question about their reliability, even with my crudball, lead reloads.
 
 

Bravo, don't take this personnal.

I know we beat the 1911 issue to death a while back but I'll restate MHO on the sidearm issue; specifically 1911s..IF you favor the 1911 design and it's 45acp cartridge and consider it your PRIMARY weapon[ most likely to be close to hand when needed], why the resistance to upgrading it through some custom work.. We all spend lots more on long guns and think that's the normal thing to do; custom bbls.,triggers,rings and bases, etc...Personally, I'd rather have a $1200 ,100% reliable 1911 and a stock PSS orLTR[which is in fact the case] than a $2500 rifle rig and a box stock 1911..I'm much more likely to have to depend on the pistol, and my stock rifles have served me well enough at Storm the last three years that I consider them "good enough for govt. work" Plus, what is truly more beautiful than a classic two-tone full house 1911???[maybe Dakota 10s, or double rifles, or all that other stuff no one I know can afford]...
 
 

Hunkering down in the gun room and waiting for incoming!
 
 
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
still laid up in zone 7 in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 13:29:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.158)

---

Sinister, DPMS has been a problem in AR's for the last few years. Quality has gone out the window. I completely agree on the tube flexing the AR action. I guess it was either use that hunk of steel for an 18 wheeler axle or drill a little hole in it and call it a bbl. Way to big. Imagine having to carry that.

Rick, when I went to the FBI Range Master school fifteen/twenty year ago they were still putting the flashlight behind the knee to change mags. I just used what Awerbuck had taught me, short seat the mag with flashlight in hand. They stopped the class and had me teach the instructors. Well two years ago one of our guys came back from the FBI range class and said he had to teach them how to load with a flash light. sounds like they had one years experience twenty times. I give the Marines much higher marks than the FBI. I have watched them, USMC, come up with some good ideas.

Bravo, take some Wilson 7 not 8 rd mags, and Winchester brand Hard Ball ammo. 400 rounds and shoot the weapon. See if it jams. If it still jams one of two things is happening, 1. Gun is F'd. 2. You limp wristing it. If it works try 230 grain Hydro Shok. If that fails you need the ramp polished. If that works your reloads suck. Either the hard to feed ashtry or load is too light. I doubht the load is too light knowing you. Now also go to a 18lbs recoil spring and throw the stock one away. If you still have problems call me.

Pablito, I see a Unertal Groupy in your future.LOL Two burgers and beers it is.

Hey on all the search and seizure Police crap lately. Please knock it off it bores the crap out of me and nothing will be learned or solved. Lets talk guns and shooting (plus slings, a little plug for me)

Undude.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 13:51:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

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Bravo' I don't know about anyone else but if I can't read a Mil Dot Master I can't see the battle sights either let alone the target!
I'd just have to make a swag and choose a dot. AS a rule the range will decrease as the light does and negating the need for adjustments
in battle light.
It's permissible in my book to increase the scope to point blank adjustments... so that hold over is not needed on 300 or less shots.
You can shoot minute of man that way if being attacked.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 13:52:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Jim,
I use 36.5 to 38grs of Varget in my 260s with the 142s or the 140AMAXs. Depending on the bullet and case it puts me anywhere from 2675 to 2775fps and no pressure signs. My best accuracy is in the 37gr range. Hope this helps!!!

Pete,
You said it Bud!! Maybe its the Varget fumes that damge our genes(HA).

Bruce,
If your bashful about plugging your MILDOT MASTER than I will, IT IS THE BEST DAMN TOOL YOU CAN HAVE FOR YOUR RIFLE FOR LONG RANGE SHOOTING OTHER THAN A SCOPE!!!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 14:27:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

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Watched the CBS report with interest last night. Reminded me of an incident I had on the SWAT team in the mid-70s in the Bay Area. Our sniper had 2 accidental discharges when he popped the Rem 700 safety off. I couldn't believe it, so we went out to the baylands on duty to "control" some hostile mudhens. Pulled that virtually brand new smoke pole outta the crusiser's trunk, laid across the hood to fire down into the swamp, and sure as hell, snapping the safety off cranked a round into the mud. Although that is the only time that ever happened to me, I have never forgotten it. Most of us on that team were former Marines who had been with line units in 'Nam and were plenty familiar with firearms. Lesson here: NEVER TRUST A SAFETY. EVER! That's the point I made to my wife last night. No such thing as a firearms expert.
John <john.brownlee@kirtland.af.mil>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 15:55:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.238.237.95)

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As a kid I tried to adjust a 700 trigger and ended up making it go off when the safety was pushed off. Thank God I was respectful enough of rifles that I didn't point it at anyone's foot when I did it. It sure wasn't Remington's fault. Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently creative and determined fool.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 16:22:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Come to think of it.. Where in the hell did they find a Church full of people with 700's that would talk to Dan Rather about guns? Hell perhaps!
Grogan; you will probably fine that a load of 70 some grains of IMR 4350 will be optimum for 168's in the 300 mag. Your choice of powder aren't in error but the 4350 has always served me best. Save for one charge of VARGET (not recommended for use in 300's) that I won't publish. *Kiddies do not even dream of VARGET in high Capacity cases without use of MAGNUM primers.!!!!!!!!
Mike; your boredom is exceeded only by your willingness to change the subject....we know it sucks to be on both sides of the issue. IT reminds me of a guy who used to muzzle his coon dogs so they wouldn't harm the fur. I hope that's a metaphor that's appropriate.
Bravo; Do you use a taper die when you load .45 ACP?

Markwell; Surely all resistance to working over a 1911 is basically gone. The same could be said of the M1a or 700 Remington for that matter. But surely when judging the weapons attention should be paid to the "starting point" to overhaul these kit guns that are sold nowadays. It's not what you can make of it that determines it's value out of the box that interests me. It's how it comes to me and how much I'd have to do to tailor it to my needs. Nothing can be finer than a tricked out 1911 ummmm mmmmmm goood!! But it's a lot of trickin to make one what most people want today. This gun gets stippled on sliced and diced and pieces added and drilled, ground respringed and custom gripped. New sights and rails pinged and clips are sold by the truck loads... and you know after a while even the most loyal 11 lovers might get the idea that it was a little bit shy of perfection in the first place. If I bought a new car and had to replace the body and bore the cylinders throw away the electronics and put in new seats, tires and bumper guards......Here we go again.
I'm going to delare all who oppose this view honorary winners of the argument since we don't need to take up 5 days of roster space again.
Jon; I should have suggested this the first time but I'm known as the world formost barrel hacker. I'd cut that damned piece of plumbing to 20" do a decent crown job if nothing else with a conical dremmel tool rammed up the bore and watch those groups go to .75 inches.
These boys are right about the bending and all that but 20" is a harmonic resonance point on AR's or I miss my best guess. That's the cheapest way to fix it and it's too damned heavy to carry around the way it is. There's nothing to gain on that extra length. I'd check the twist.. assuming it's probably 1 in 9 and your shooting something in the neighborhood of 60 grainers you would be OK. If it's FMJ no telling what it's gonna do group wise. A good load should shoot sub moa.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 16:36:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

---

Guns up at the whitehouse. Check it out.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 16:47:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

---

Jon Persing from Ohio.
We are having the same problem in Texas. Here is what they are telling us. They are only issuing M852 Match ammo at this time. When this is all used up, then they will start issuing the M118SB. Once that is used up then they will start issuing the M118LR. We have talked to MTU in Arksnsas and they said that is coming from higher up. At this time we are only getting M852 match here in Texas. Some time we find some Special Ball. If you have any question e-mail me. I might be able to give you a contact to get some Special Ball.
SFC Pete Carpentier jr TXNG <petec690@hotmail.com>
C.C., TX, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 18:42:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.178.89)

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Ken Hunter: Been trying to email you but the Mailer-Deamon keeps sending it back. Send me your address.. Thanks...

Grogan: Try 71.3 gr. RL22 w/190 Sierra MK, FED GM cases and FED 215M primers. Should get around 2900 fps and good accuracy.

Anyone have any 6.5-06 loads with Sierra 142's ?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 19:33:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

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Remington 700 trigger:

A long while ago, I adjusted my trigger and did extensive testing to be sure it was safe. I have been firing it for about 3 years, with break set at 1.6 pounds. About a week ago, after scrubbing and scrubbing with some JBs, I reinstalled the bolt. Rifle in a safe direction, I popped off the safety and click. I did it again, in disbelief. click. Then I noticed my doggone finger was directly on the trigger. I was standing, the rifle was on the bench on a bipod at waist level. The barrel was pointed at a bare wall that had a dirt berm directly behind it. Rifle was empty--always checked and double checked. I immediately did the butt and barrel impact tests and rapid bolt maneuvering with the safety off, and also manipulated the safety 20-30 times. Guess what? It never went click when my finger was completely out of the trigger guard. Seems like it is almost ergonomically natural with the rifle at waist level to put your finger on the trigger while manipulating the safety. Operator error, valuable lesson.

1911-foo. If you use the heavier recoil spring, as I do, if you do not have the extended ejector, the gun may short cycle just ever so slightly, and cause stovepipes and feed issues. I have an extended ejector waiting to be installed on my Commander, the only I own without it, and the only one that has stovepipes with the heavy spring.(ejection port work already done) Recoil spring buffer inserts may take away 1/8" of critical cycling too. Magazine preference is a religious discussion, but in attempting to buy the best, the Wilson mags would not fit in any of the box-stock Springfield Armory 1911's we could get our hands on. The base plate would hit the mag well and the mag would not engage properly. (perhaps it isn't an issue anymore?)

Chuck
Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Deep South, Kalifornistan, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 21:13:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.102.182.133)

---

FYI:

http://www.unertloptics.com/unertlhome.html
 

:-)
 

Got a LOT of pennies to save!
 

-L
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 21:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

---

Unertl 10X

What is the deal with this scope ? To my knowledge it is a scope which was state-of-the art somewhere in the early 1980's i.e. 20 years ago. It costs 2500 USD because the only game in town has not sold them to the public ever before.

A Leupold Mark4 M3 costs around 1000 USD. Can anyone with an honest face claim that the Unertl REALLY is as good (or possibly better) than the Leupold for a rifle in 308 ?

I understand that rarities are always appreciated also in price, but as a rifle shooter, do I really get with the Unertl 10X anything more than an old steel-bodied fixed scope ? What am I missing ?

I would bet that Leupolds Mark4's and even the M1's and M3's in the LR serie are as good or better in real life use. Opinions ? What about the semi-fixed parallax on the Unertl ?
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 21:54:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

---

.223 LTR folks: What handloads/ammo are you using with what kind of accuracy? Thanks in advance.
Breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 21:57:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

---

GONNA BE A GRAND PAPPY, YAAAHHH FRIGGIN HOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Well honorary grand pappy anyway! Girlfriend's daughter is 6 weeks impregnated. Time to make a list. Let's see here; camo diapers, camo shoes, camo clothes, camo bed stuff, hot damn camo stroller with a 50 cal. gun mount and grenade launcher!! Gonna paint a room in OD, hang bandoliers and empty brass for the little bugger to play with.

Guess I have an excuse to go ahead and buy HIM a 6.5x284 for when HE gets old enough to shoot.

Unfourtunately if you back up 6 weeks and then go out 9 months that puts the expulsion day right around the match. If HE gets born before that, I'll bring HIM as my spotter.

Smiling like a pig in feces, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 23:36:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.61)

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Tony Yakowski:

we had an outage problem yesterday. Now - your mail relay may have been blacklisted to for bein a spam relay.

Try to send your mail again.
 

If nothing else - my alternate email is MpactArea@hotmail.com

Ken :)

Ken Hunter (AKA. Chainsaw ) <Hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, va, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 23:50:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

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Im looking for a new bolt action rifle and im looking for some input from you all. I know that want a 30-06, a 26" non-tapered bull barrel id like to find these features in a stock rifle if posable and tweak it out later. There's a Winchester thats similar to what IM looking for, its the Model 70 Stealth. the only thing is they only offer it in a .308 and not in a 30-06 like im looking for. though iv heard some good things in the past postings here at the site.
thanks
Justin
Justin Trip <kaiels@aol.com>
vernon hills, il, USA - Wednesday, February 07, 2001 at 23:55:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.155.157.166)

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Hexa.... You are absolutely correct with your asessment of the Unertl 10X scope. It is old technology, an outdated design, and IMHO way overpriced when compared to its competition. For nostalgia - or some other reason that I cannot explain - I'd love to have one. It would just go great with my M40A1.

NG Shooters..... Just why in hell would you prefer M117SB over M852?
I certainly understand the desire for M117LR - but SB?

Watchin' TV - on the White House mess. Which news agency do you think was the first to cloud the issue with GUN CONTROL? It wasn't ABC, CBS, NBC, or even CNN! IT WAS THE BBC!! I can't say that we should've let Hitler have it (my mother was born there), but the US should NEVER, EVER, EVER bail those assholes out of trouble again. I'm goin' downtown to the Shamrock Pup to throw a few bucks in the collection jar. I'll throw down a few beers too, then recycle em' on the Union Jack!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 00:10:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.217)

---

Aw, now Alan....the BBC doesn't speak for all the Brits. I've met several of them that weren't vain, superior, supercilious asses.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 00:18:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

---

TENTION!!! I've got a program for you fellers it's zipped up
and ready to go!
It's a popular one that will be a big use for ya, some may have it already, some don't , If you want it email me and I'll send it to you.
The only catch is notify me immediately if it is a success.
to install it , unzip it with winzip, then click on EXE. file.
It's a DOS program, and since I'm givin it to ya free, I don't
think I'm in any trouble.
Enjoy Duster

Duster <mcgrath@tc3net.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 01:06:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.91.142.136)

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Markwell: the mag is a Wilson 8 rounder, I'm using it as a 7. My ammo goes from the press to a SAAMI spec chamber gauge (must fall in AND out freely), then the barrel test where I take the barrel of that pistol out, drop the round in, PRESS on the case head, then invert the barrel to see it drops out freely. Any that don't pass both tests are "culls". They still chamber, but if I get a jam on a cull, it certainly doesn't count! Shot another 150 today (100 at lunch, another 50 after work), and got another stoppage of the same type. So over the last 3 days it's been 2 stoppages in 250 rounds. Nowhere near acceptable. By the end of the week, I'll have the cash to send it back to Springfield (AGAIN) for remedial action (thanks to Sir Wes), I'm reassured that when it comes back to me, it WILL be right and 100%. But that's what I also heard the last two times I sent it back. This time I'm wagering that it's right. In any case, my reasoning behind not purchasing a top-flight one is cost. I've gone that route (custom built), and had as much luck as I'm currently having. So this time (having wised up some) I thought I'd pick up a very plain Jane, and if it worked, I'd have the doo-dads put on it AFTER it proved to be reliable. So far it's still a plain Jane.

Patron Mike: I was worried that with this stock set-up I might be hammering the pistol, so I bumped the loads down a touch. With both 200's and 230's I'm getting between 860 and 890 fps. I'd be willing to wager a new Kimber that it's not my wrist nor my loads, I'm really sure. The brass is landing approximately 5 feet away at 4 o'clock to me, so I'm pretty sure that it's not too wimpy of a load ;-)

Wild Bill: That's basically what I was trying to say on the light issue. If I can't read a mildot master, it's dark enough that I can't see far enough to mean anything but REALLY close action. It's my preference to shoot quickly / closely without optics, but that's probably just an artifact of the fact this is the way I'm used to handling the battle rifle. And that's an affirmative on the taper die, it's a RCBS part. Guess I missed something, what's the "guns up at the White House"?

Bolt: congrats, hope you have a blast. It's my opinion that my father is enjoying his grand kid more than he enjoyed his kid ;-) But if you ever give your grandkid a toy that has a loud siren at the age of 3, then you deserve everything you get! HA! At least it wasn't a drumset.

BBC? I'm not going to get into it, there's good parts and bad parts. IMHO the bad parts outweigh the good. I must have missed something. No radio today, and when I came home, "Peter Pan" was on the TV. Still is. Dunno if old Walt was a blessing or a bane. Good stuff, the first 4K times.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the free, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 01:40:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.139)

---

Anybody out there used the Kleenbore 'Copper Cutter'? Their brochure says it doesn't use ammonia but still works fast and good. And the price seems reasonable, so it sounds like a winner.

Your real-life feedback is appreciated. FWIW, Shooter's Choice Copper Remover is pretty dang potent, and quickly turns brass jags black unless you are fast on the trigger with a neutralizing spray. I prefer stuff that won't cause damage if you forget to patch out on time.

God bless the USA. Remember, your fellow shooters aren't potential criminals... they're patriots and potential heroes if anything. If we govern our nation by what one whacko 'might' do, then everybody should be locked up, just in case. Don't buy that b.s. Freedom has a price, and sometimes the price is high. And it's always worth it.
Nate H. <worst2senators@ca.usa>
Occupied, Kalifornia, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 01:48:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.194)

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Hexa,

ALAN's on the right track... You did peg it, the Lupita is superior to the Unertl, but the Unertl 10X is THE scope that has been on the Marine Corps' M40A1 for two decades.

The fascination with the scope is, for me, tied in to the Esprit de Corps of the "brotherhood"... I enlisted as an 0311 in the Corps a decade ago, partially because of that rifle. Sick, eh? Young and stupid at the time, maybe, but maybe not, maybe just following my heart... God and women and guns and rovers and beer and geology and...

Seriously, I'm not planning on buying one anytime soon, my money's obligated elsewhere for the next big parcel of time. But if I had the cash to burn, I'd get one, just because....

I may jinx things, but I'd wager (only a VERY small wager!) that, once they're being produced for awhile for the general public, the price'll come down some. Right now, the market will easily demand that high premium because the demand has far outstripped the supply for years and years. After the initial bang, demand will drop, and the price "should" follow... I hope...
 
 
 

Semper Fi, Chesty...

-Leslie
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 02:00:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

---

Well I didnt see the first report from CBS, but I caught the report that they had tonight. I found it interesting. They had a Gunsmith on there that said he wrote them a leter in 69 about the trigger on the 700 and they did nothing, also CBS said they found an internal report (what ended up screwing firestone and the tabacco companies) and the internal memmo mentioned the problem with the trigger on the 700 was falty, but that there should be no recall because they would have to recall 2,000,000 rifles to find 20,000 that were falty, but what worries me is that they didnt change anything about the trigger when they discovered the problem, from what the CBS report says they just left it to be falty.
what does everyone think?, guess it is a good thing I got a Ruger
Charlie
Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
Jonesboro, AR, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 02:02:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.191.253.110)

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The little wormy former Green Beret (Whose only difference between them and girl scouts is adult supervision) slowy emerges from his hole to once again chunk a grenade at the j**heads.

Hexa - Agree, it is a 30 year old design and not worth a penny to me since I like the M3As. The Ultras/Marks are cheaper and the old Ultras are as tough as any Unertl. BUT, you know how all these old former j**heads are. Get a piece of nostalgia going and they will buy it in a heartbeat! Funny thing is, in the Archieves you will find that Gooch agrees that the Unertl is an old design and the newer scopes are better. 2500 is a healthy chunk towards a shooter WITH a new GOOD scope. :-)

OK running and ducking back to my hole in Fayettenam North Carolina. Got a stalk to watch tomorrow.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 02:08:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.23)

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Gent's, and Gentette..........

Looks like M118LR, is NOT the only problem we got.

Go to www.drudgereport.com

Appears the mil is rationing 9mm, and are fast running out of 5.56 as well.........rationing it also.

ONLY specific units, and groups are getting an allotment.

Think we need to go to Wallyworld, and buy some, and send it gratis???.

Eight years of socialista's will do it every time.

This is NO small thing.......it has reached a critical stage.

The only thing worse I can think of, that is TOTALLY amoral, for our servicemen & women, is to have to be on foodstamps to make ends meet.

This needs remedy NOW.........

I am going to call my Congress critter's, and Senator's........

Suggest ya'll do the same....it's high time for our people to get EVERYTHING they need, and more...........

PO'd rant mode off screen.........but still fumin'

Two Shoes
In Ammunitionally challenged USA!!!!!
I mean, GO FIGURE.............
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 02:42:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.61)

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Grogan,

Listen to Tony Y on the .300WM load thats so good it was banned. ;-)

I have also had VERY good results with H-1000 and am getting ready to tinker with some of that "short kernel" stuff. Its Kin to Varget so its gotta be good!

Using the same components, and following the usual incremental load development steps. with std Lawyer Yaddah Yaddah Blah Blah et al ad naseum(Sorry Old Dawg).
 
 

Bruce Robinson,

I gotta back Pat on his Mil-Dot Master "call". You Da Man!
 
 

Mike,
Slings?????????? What Slings??????? is this something new??
HA! 1*:-0
 
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 03:03:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.39)

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I recently visited my friendly gun dealer who gave me a few prices to ponder. Now I would like to know what you guys think. I can purchase a M70 Stealth in .308 for $609.99 or I can get a Reminton 700 VS in .308 for $649.99. From what I hear about the Stealth I will probably have to drop a Timney trigger in it anyway, so the prices are pretty close to the same. Of course he also mentioned that both weapons would probably take about two months to get in if not more. Any feedback would be helpful guys.
thanks, Robert
Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
Boissevain, VA, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 03:08:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.210.241.103)

---

I recently visited my friendly gun dealer who gave me a few prices to ponder. Now I would like to know what you guys think. I can purchase a M70 Stealth in .308 for $609.99 or I can get a Reminton 700 VS in .308 for $649.99. From what I hear about the Stealth I will probably have to drop a Timney trigger in it anyway, so the prices are pretty close to the same. Of course he also mentioned that both weapons would probably take about two months to get in if not more. Any feedback would be helpful guys.
thanks, Robert
Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
Boissevain, VA, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 03:08:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.210.241.103)

---

Bravo...
If your brass is landing 5 feet away, you can go up 2 or 3 pounds, and not smoke-stack... it will be fine with no other changes, and it will go to battery jus' fine.
We all know you ain't got no "limp wrist" ;))

Two Shoes...
we're running out of ammo, cuz the "cum-hander" in cheif used all that stuff up, when he was starting all these little things to cover up his misdeeds in the paper, and didn't want to spend anymore to replace it.

Now our guys can do their FTX like the Limeys... they yell "Bang, bang", and the opposing force is dead... I kid you NOT!!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 03:09:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.97)

---

Bravo...I guess I should count myself lucky in the reliable 1911 dept...Will say no more[right!] on the subject as it stirs the pot a mite...Call me if you want to discuss your problem further;;304-567-2254...any evening is fine as I'm still laid up and going nowhere..
 
 

Guns up;; some guy tried to take on the White House with 38 revolver according to the news.. Somebody put a round in him and they hauled him off to the hospital and then to the pokey I presume... By now you've probably heard this.....
 

Another REM. light tactical rifle question...Being a 1 in 9 bbl., anyone got any experience with different bullet weights/accuracy...anyone tried 55gr. ballistic tips in one?? Results?
 
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Lovin those Colt autos in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 03:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.194)

---

Some inside info on the "new" Unertl company.

For all those die hard Unertl fans out there. Forget that the design is 30 yrs old, cept it's true. US Optics DOES have the repair contract as Mike Miller said. The USMC approached USO to do the job, and after some trepidation USO agreed with the stipulation that they could upgrade components that sorely needed some change and mods.

The new "Unertl" is NOT going to made in the USA from USA parts, it's overseas. I know the source, but at this point am not at liberty to say. Don't count USO out, they're coming back hard.

Couldn't agree with Mr. Boucher more, the M3 is far superior to the Unertl as is the Kahles ZF series and the Schmidt & Bender (vastly underrated here in the US). I remember when the SOTIC from Bragg went to Camp Lejeune to do a gas mask test shoot for the new M40 series tests in 1988. We went and shot with the fine snipers at Camp Lejuene and all was going well until it started pouring in the afternoon. No less than 6 M40s went to the range shack... why?

The Unertls were leaking and they didn't want to have to send them in again to get dried out. Nuff said. ... Humbly, by the way.
Trigger50 <triggerfifty@specialoperations.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 04:04:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.221.130)

---

Thanks for all the help, you guys are always great.

Grogan <reptech@televar.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 04:14:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.201)

---

Dean/Trigger 50, I also heard that Unertals were going to be made over seas but I have no concrete evidnece yet. One thing is certain the Unertal is not as good a an Ultra/MK4 or many others, certainly way behind a SN6 USO. I beleave you have the story absolutely correct on how USO got the USMC contract and they/USO is very busy filling that contract right now. Some day I will tell this crowd about the nexus between USO and the new Unertal co. Starting with who was going to buy what Co. Dean, I am sure you know what I am talking about and probably agree USO is not a suspect in this event,

Rick and Hexa well said.

Bravo, Wilson 8 round mags are notorious for bad feeding go to a seven rd mag and see what happens. Hey what the heck do what ever but I spend most of my days finding solutions to pistol problems and itusually goes like this in order of what most likely messes up

1. Mags are bad
2. Ammo is bad
3. Limp wrist
4. F'd weapon

I have seen too many Wilson 8rd mags fail to ever carry one but you do what ever you want, just dont blame Springfield for that one

Try factory hard ball and then you will know if its the ammo or something else

Pete, slings you little dude you
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 04:27:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.152)

---

Terry de los dos zapatos,
You've missed the boat, amigo. We now live in a gentler, more compassionate world where war is soon to be illegal. Instead of shooting our enemies, we send them foreign aid and let their militaries contribute to our electoral process. That way, the whole world can have a say in what we do. Kinda like buying stock. What better way of resolving conflicts than making everyone shareholders in USA, Inc.? And just to make things easier for all those who can't afford to buy USA directly, we'll go ahead and take that merger offer from UN enterprises.

Kinda makes you think back about 80 or 90 years to a thing called the League of Nations. We know how well that worked....but hey, it only failed because the right people were't in charge. The folks running this show are a lot smarter, right? Human nature really does change over time, doesn't it?

Sheesh!

What was that guy's signature in the Mall Ninga thread? Something like, "I traded all my guns and all I got for them were these dumb leg irons."
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Looking for some range time in Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 04:38:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.160.1.144)

---

Robert French - Those are good prices if can get them. Owning both, I give the nod to the Winchester,but I am biased. If you choose a Stealth no need for a new trigger, just have the one in it adjusted. Maybe a .300 WSM Stealth soon?

On this Remington trigger crap, is it crazy or what? An improperly adjusted sear engagement can cause the rifle to fire when the safety is removed with no contact with the trigger. This is not a design defect but a QC problem at best. Any brand of adjustable trigger can be adjusted to do what these folks are claiming Remy's do by negligence can be made to occure. The drawback of having a very light trigger is that if you have a brain fart and touch the trigger with your finger when releasing the safety it will go off, every time. Lack of sear engagement can also cause semi auto AR's to go full auto. This is nothing new, and to my limited understanding of triggers, there is no way mechanically to 100% idiot proof the problem. Leave triggers to those who know how, pure and simple.
 

Perhaps this is why Remy is playing with electronic ignition rifles. Rules #1 through#4 apply here.

Just my humble opinion.
 
 

Titan
Titan <titan7.62@home.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 04:43:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

---

I was looking at geting a rem 700 VS in 308 but i have also heard that there is a large backorder of these and i wont be able to get one for awhile. I was also looking at the sendero in 300 win mag, and a 7 rem mag. I am not real big 5'8" 150, and was wondering which of these would be a better rifle for me. I would shoot it at med. range (out to 400 yds) at least and use it as a hunting rifle for deer, maybe elk.

thanks,
Spyder
Denney <neaced@pr.erau.edu>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 04:47:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.30.190.4)

---

Man, what a crazy day. Got a guy with a .38 at the White House, and a guy with a .38 at the local mall where my wife works (she was walking out to her car when all this was going on. Seems some 37-ish guy started shining a laser pointer in a 72 yr old guys eyes. He pulls out his .38, sticks it up his nose, and tells him to stop. State police show up and a brief stand-off ensues before he puts down the gun. Both were arrested, no details on the charges as of the 11:00pm news.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South West , PA, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 04:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.68)

---

I just watched an interview on the CBS evening news about a safety problem with Remington 700 rifles. Apparently 1% of approximately 2 million guns can fire when the safety is moved from safe to fire without the trigger being pulled. The segment and related info from CBS website (www.cbs.com) stated that all Rem 700 with the Walker fire control system are prone to failure. There are links to memos from Remington and other interviews that are worth checking out. Remington does not plan a recall as one of this size would break them. Other than replacing the trigger, I know of no other way to correct this problem as it could happen at any time. This can be especially dangerous to LE marksman at critical times during a deployment. I will gladly accept any advice on this topic.
Steve <bucksavage@earthlink.net>
Youngstown, Ohio, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 04:52:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.198.190)

---

On the subject of 1911's. I know this is riflecountry not pistolcountry but since the topic's been raised I thought I'd share a bit of what I've learned about their problems (and I've seen a bunch). Ejection distance:less than 5ft, spring's too hard, more than 8ft, spring's too soft. Bullet jamming nose up into the barrel: usually the mag feedlips need to be opened JUST A LITTLE or even shortened, jamming nose into the feed ramp: mag follower needs more UP angle. Rim jamming against the bottom half of the breach face: make sure the extractor has a bevel on the bottom of the hook notch, and rounded bottom corner of the hook, secondary possibility here make sure the cutout for the breachface will accept a SAMMI max dimension rim (.45 rims get LARGER with use from peening), inconsistent ejection: check tension on extractor (should have to apply a little force to get a rim in place against the breachface, just a little, and the round should stay in place solidly when you let go), secondary check, make sure the extractor gets a GOOD bite on the rim, i.e. the hook notch should be DEEPER than the case rim notch. Some of this knowledge I got from Kunhousin's (OK, spelling is NOT my profession), lots I got from fixing a Frankenstein style comped .45 1911 to work perfectly...OH Yeah, if you're not using a Lee factory crimp die as your last stage in reloading, do yourself a favor and get one, they're the final insurance against an oversize piece of brass (can you say, GLOCK?) Sorry for the length of this, and if I'm outta line, I'll take my whuppin like a man. Just trying to give back to a site I've gotten so much from.
Michael <mpurvey@hiwaay.net>
madison, al, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 05:10:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.71.96.3)

---

Roger: either you've got a very good insight into what's going on, or you've been talking to my congressman too. In either case, what's coming down the pike is disgusting at the least, punishible via hanging at the worst. The good part is, if we get to choose enemies, the UN is my first choice. Those guys could foul up a wet dream. At the present time, I take consolation in knowing that every hour I spend at the range is one more "damn that guy" uttered in the lawless (murder) capitol.

Patron Mike: can I just change out the follower to turn an 8 to a 7? The reason I got this one is because my old Wilsons had plastic floorplates, and this one had an aluminum THIN jobbie. I like aluminum over plastic, and I like the thin pad better also. No comments on AR's LOL

"Wormy former green beret" my rear end. You're not fooling anyone Master Rick LOL. Although I do have to admit, it's a good bit of camo! I don't make fun of Army folks, heck, my Dad was one. Besides, those Army license plates allow you to park in the "special" parking spots ;-)

Markwell: stir the pot?! Me? NEVER! HA! I think this "bad seed" is about to start running right. As a matter of fact, I'm so sure of the bet, I'm going to have some gidge-widgets put on it. Nothing fancy, just an Ed Brown grip safety and either Heinie or Novak ultra-low sights.

Glad I shot today, it hasn't quit snowing since. Looks like spring is a ways off.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, nowhere near a free country, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 05:15:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.180)

---

Im looking for a new bolt action rifle and im looking for some input from you all. I know that want a 30-06, a 26" non-tapered bull barrel id like to find these features in a stock rifle if posable and tweak it out later. There's a Winchester thats similar to what IM looking for, its the Model 70 Stealth. the only thing is they only offer it in a .308 and not in a 30-06 like im looking for. though iv heard some good things in the past postings here at the site.
thanks
Justin
Justin Trip <kaiels@aol.com>
vernon hills, il, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 07:30:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.154.62.229)

---

Product liability litigation:

After getting out of police work I was a legal investigator for a while and worked one case against Thompson Center that cost them 7 million. It turned out they left a small part out of a Seneca Flintlock, the result being that when the cocked hammer was lowered to the half-cock "safety" position, the slightest bump would drop the hammer and set the thing off.

The owner was putting the rifle in a PU truck gun rack after hunting one day when it fired, the ball going through the opposite side wall of the cab and thence through the face/head of his hunting buddy. Probably nobody would have ever figured out what happened, except I owned an identical rifle and knew as soon as I checked out the "accident" gun that it was defective. X-rays of the rifle (which had never been disassembled after it left the factory) proved that the part was missing.

One accident = 7 mil! If I were CEO of Rem I wouldn't want 20k accidents out there just waiting to happen. By the way, if they haven't recalled and checked out the 700's, how do they know "only" 20k are defective? What exactly is it that is defective? Or is it just that a few trigger screws are misadjusted? Anybody know?

1911 mags:

I've got several of those expensive Wilson 8 rounders and mine don't work either. But funny thing is, my El Cheapo Norinco's work just fine. Makes you kind of wonder, eh?

Whitehouse:

Glad to see they shot the whacko, so maybe there won't be any copycat replays. I noticed that he is an accountant. Maybe tax season was too much for him this year?

Maybe I should explain how times have changed, especially for the benefit of the younger cops here? Some years back 3 of us arrested a triple robbery-murder suspect for the DC cops and had to go to DC three times, once for a motion to supress and twice for trials (one trial was declared a mistrial). While there we were informally asigned the duty of guarding the key witness in the case (the BG's girlfriend, who two co-murderers were trying to knock off so she couldn't testify) and consequently were informally "authorized" to carry concealed in the District.

Don't you know that during a lull in the case the DC detectives decided to take us out of town detectives on a tour through the Senate (or the House, I can't remember which) which was in session, and we even ended up eating lunch in the crowded Senate dining room. And all of us were carrying concealed, which nobody noticed, or else didn't care about, and there wasn't a metal detector in sight! Hard to believe now days, isn't it?

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 08:07:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.84)

---

Wilson 8 rounders: I have a half-dozen, each of which have several thousand rounds through them. No problems. What am I doing wrong?

Justin Trip: Heavy Barreled .30-06's have been pretty much supplanted by .308s and the various big-bottled .30s. If you have your heart set on an '06, you may need to buy an old action and have it rebarreled. You can get a 'take-off' Sendero stock made by HS from the Emporium for $100. You're looking at at least $1,000 without scope, mounts, bipod, UnDude sling (Little plug there), etc....
 

Spyder wrote: "I was also looking at the sendero in 300 win mag, and a 7 rem mag. I am not real big 5'8" 150, and was wondering which of these would be a better rifle for me. I would shoot it at med. range (out to 400 yds) at least and use it as a hunting rifle for deer, maybe elk."

.300 and 7mm Senderos are made for precise, deliberate, long-range field shooting when you need to hit real hard. As general purpose hunting rifles they are the wrong comprimise. They are heavy-bitch-arm-anchors. They kick harder than necessary, make lots of noise, use a bunch of powder, are ssslloooooowwwww for quick shots and are just unwieldy in general.

Buy a nice sporter weight .280. That's a great medium range deer rifle. The 140 grain Nosler partition kills them cleanly. Thump them fairly and they'll never know you weren't shooting the .300. For the odd elk, stalk to within reasonable range, and use 175 grain Nosler partitions. Shoot to break the far shoulder.

'yote bait: You have a lot of experience in this kind of thing, do you have any comment?
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 11:01:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

---

Ref: Dad's Diploma

New York State passed a law granting High School diplomas to WWII vetrans that did not complete high school.

Last night our family gathered at a meeting of the school board where they awarded Dad his diploma. He became the first graduate of the class of 2001.

During the ceremony the district superintendent read off my Dad's WWII record. I was moved to tears. He suffered from Typhis, Cholera, Yellow Fever, Malaria and Amebic Dysentery. He was at Guadalcanal, Luzon, The Solomons and some other places with names I didn't recognize. His awards included the Bronze Star.

He never made a big deal out of his service. He never joined the Legion or the VFW. He just came home and went to work.

Dad hobbled up and accepted his diploma and then returned to his seat. He didn't have anything to say other than, "Let's go home."

Thanks Dad.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 12:42:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

---

Anybody have an opinion about using FLITZ as a barrel cleaner? FLITZ

claims the US Olympic teams uses it? Is it roughly the same as JB's?

They (the company) claim it's non abrasive and won't hurt the bore.
 
 

TIP: The HART Barrel Co. (Bobby Hart) recommends a way to black a
barrel. He says teflon paint is not worth the price. It scratches,
chips etc. My tip: Clean barrel well with lacqure cleaner, or
acetone,then a final wipe with alcohol to make sure metal is clean.
Allow warm barrel to dry thoroughly. Spray paint barrel with Krylon
High Heat Flat Black paint (muffler paint). Bobby Hart says you can't
scrape it off with a knife. If the barrel has been bead blasted,
you'll get a better result. You can touch this finish up anytime you

wish, should you somehow damage it.
 
 

QUESTION: 30 inch tall target at .9 mils. Why can't this be located on a mildot master? Also exact mil heights are critical beyond 700 yards. Why does the mildot master not be graduated in finer increments? Example: 30 inch tall target at 1.4 mils. Where is 1.4 mils? Answer: Somewhere between 1.25 and 1.5. See my point, as accuracy needs to be keener, measurement marks are course.

I have and use a mildot master, but a calculator leaves no doubt.

I hear/see people talking about yards and meters being interchangable.
What do youall think about this. Will you hit a target at even 400 yards when you calculate the distance in meters? How about 800 yards?

So I'm stirrin the pot - enlighten me please. If these subjects don't interest you - how about a cure for jungle crotch-rot?
 

cbmarshall <cbmarshal@aol.com>
Thurmont, MD, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 13:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.196.96.100)

---

CDC, put bluntly you got lucky with the Wilson eight rounders. If you had spent the time my guys and I have working with the 1911's you would not be the math guy, you would be the 1911 guy. You have what one or maybe two 1911 pistols you have worked with? You take them to the range? I carry mine daily and have for my whole career. To work, SWAT, teaching at the range, home/. I dont know maybe 12 hours a day for twenty years.I have not tracked how much I shoot mine in years but one year I shot 15,000 rounds through a Colt Combat45. You think I might be getting some experience with the 1911 design you have not? I have tried the Wilson 8 round mags in probably twenty five different pistols and all were less reliable than the Wilson 7 rounders. My guys have also traveled the same path as I did and ended up with the same feelings. What you dont seem to grasp is I wish the 8rounders worked as well as the seven's, I could then carry one more round and that is a plus, if it works. I found no 8 round mags that worked as well as seven rounders from either Colt, MecGar, Wilson or even Norinco. Trust me I wont argue calculators with you, your the math guy.

Stan, I changed the foloowers on all my eight round Wilson Mags to seven rounders and they have worked very well since. The seven round follower is round on the top not concave and this creates a straighter shot for the round to go into the bbl than the concave follower. I imagine you caould have the feedramp/bbl changed for the eight round follower but the smiths I have talked to and trust said stay away from this, so I will stick with just the polish ramp job most of the good smiths do.

Flash, Norinco makes one ugly good shooter in a 1911. For a time Wilson hmself was building great guns on the Norinco base. Norinco makes good and crap. The 1911 was good.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 13:56:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

---

Mr. Flash,
Story from a Ramingtom warranty station:
"Rem triggers are put together with a small amount of some type lubricant, and, after several years will harden and turn almost varnishlike.
This causes the sear to "Stick", and allows the pin to drop."

Solution, Get a can of "Brake Cleaner", or something of like qualities, highly evaporative, and SPRAY the trigger down completely.
From any and all angles you can.........there is a way to take some parts out NOT normally messed with, so if you are not VERY well versed in the 700 trigger.....DON'T.

This process will disolve the hardened oil / varnish, and then blow out the unit with some compressed air.

DO NOT re-oil anything on the unit........

CB Marshall, on the J rot........pack it and all area's affected with plain old corn starch, and do it on a regular basis...especially before bedtime.......this will absorb the seepage, and moisture, and allow healing to begin........takes a week or two but it DO work.

Rog, ditto's.............very much aware of your statemnents, and in 100% agreement.

lito', agree also wid you my man.....lets make sure the county's military does without so we can C O A***'s.....
 
 
 

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 14:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.34)

---

Changed times:

The less restrictive attitude in DC, and America, that I previously mentioned was a little over a quarter of a century ago. Not really all that long ago considering how much things have changed. (I'm still on the sunny side of 60.)

Back then cops were allowed to carry concealed on commercial airliners, there were no metal detectors at airports, when presidential candidates came to town there were only a few secret service guys with them and local cops provided most of the security. Narcotics were just starting to get big and we never had to call out SWAT or snipers.

What I'm really trying to determine with all this rambling is: What was it that caused such a radical change in America in so short a time? The only answer I can come up with is NARCOTICS. To me, where I was, there seemed to be a direct relationship between the widespread use of narcotics and the increase in crime and subsequent tearing down of society.

Whether drugs will turn out to be just a symptom or the disease itself, I'm not sure. But it was clear even back back then that narcotics was the #1 prime ingredient in the gigantic increase in crime where I was. How about where you were?

Whitehouse shooting:

Did you see the snipers/spotters on the roof? And the full-auto/AimPoint SWAT guys on the grounds? I'm happy to see security seems to be a lot better now than back in the olde days.

Col. David Hackworth:

Just watched him being interviewed on FOX. He says get rid of all the fat at the top (excess generals, etc.) and get the troops ready to fight the wars of 2000. He predicts (near term) that many of our battles will be against TERRORISTS. If true, doesn't that mean there should be a big jump in government sniper use in the near future?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 14:05:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.94)

---

Bravo,
Don't know your congressman, but I know how to think for myself. it doesn't take much brainpower to figure out what's really going on, you just have to "trouble yourself" with thinking for a couple of minutes.

Just imagine, if we auctioned off all our military's weaponry and bought collection baskets for all our soldiers to pass around, just think of the kind of capital we could raise. Hell, we could even set up ballot collection boxes in all the places our military is deployed, and let our new shareholers cast their ballots for the new board of directors right there on the spot. Becha THOSE ballots would all be allowed, and every damn one of them would get counted!
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Looking for wall-climbing ninja boots in Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 14:12:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)

---

Kevin M,
We owe such a debt of gratitude to that generation and I fear that when they are gone we will never again see that kind of sacrifice and heroism. I fear that if something happened today that called for all of us to pull togeather as they did to save this country and the world we would be in a sorry state of affairs.

We have turned into a "Whats in it for me" society. Even the Army is stressing how you can be and "Individual" and achieve your own glory in the "New" Army. I really wonder what kind of a world were leaving for our childern and grandchildern. I would not change places with any of them, for I truly grew up in the best of times.

Pat <mrbullet@hotrmail.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 14:28:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

---

On Remington triggers:

The factory armorer instructor was informally discussing the AD problem during a break. Remington tested extensively and could not replicate the scenario where the woman shot her son.

Remington engineers made a GO-NO GO trigger determination that the sear engagement would be safe and reliable until the trigger pull was lowered below four (4) pounds. At that point, the engagement surface is so small and so close to manufacturing tolerance limits that safety couldn't be guaranteed. That hole in the safety stem is for insertion of an optical comparator to measure engagement at the factory. BTW, we were forbidden from touching the trigger - EVER. A Remington factory warranty station will re-adjust the trigger for LEO rifles.

Below 4 pounds, go with the Jewell. 8 ounce triggers have no place anyway on a duty rifle (of course IMHO).

Be safe
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 14:32:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.205.51)

---

On Remington triggers:

The factory armorer instructor was informally discussing the AD problem during a break. Remington tested extensively and could not replicate the scenario where the woman shot her son.

Remington engineers made a GO-NO GO trigger determination that the sear engagement would be safe and reliable until the trigger pull was lowered below four (4) pounds. At that point, the engagement surface is so small and so close to manufacturing tolerance limits that safety couldn't be guaranteed. That hole in the safety stem is for insertion of an optical comparator to measure engagement at the factory. BTW, we were forbidden from touching the trigger - EVER. A Remington factory warranty station will re-adjust the trigger for LEO rifles.

Below 4 pounds, go with the Jewell. 8 ounce triggers have no place anyway on a duty rifle (of course IMHO).

Be safe
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 14:34:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.205.51)

---

>CDC, put bluntly you got lucky with the Wilson eight rounders. You have what one or maybe two 1911 pistols you have worked with?

Two extensively. Both were set up by the same outfit.

>You take them to the range?

Yep.

>You think I might be getting some experience with the 1911 design you have not?

Sure.

>I have tried the Wilson 8 round mags in probably twenty five different pistols and all were less reliable than the Wilson 7 rounders.

Beats my pair of jacks.

>What you dont seem to grasp is I wish the 8rounders worked as well as the seven's, I could then carry one more round and that is a plus, if it works.

That doesn't seem too difficult to grasp. That gives you four doubles and a hot reload. You know this stuff.

>Trust me I wont argue calculators with you, your the math
guy.

I'm more of a stat guy. I shoot the 8 rounders from two pistols that are not representative of 1911 population because they were bought at the same time, at the same store, from the same manufacturer and worked over by the same gunsmith. My results POSITIVELY DO NOT APPLY to the entire population. MY Wilson 8 rounders work in MY 1911s. My academic advisor would disown me if I made any stronger statement than that.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 15:03:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

---


Remington (or anybody elses) Trigger and Sear Engaugement:

What Titan said: the biggest mistake people make in tweaking triggers is to minimise sear engaugement in an effort to reduce creep. Leave some in there and you will be much happier. Personally I run my PSS trigger at 2.5 lbs. and a fair bit of "creep". Works well. I used to set customers guns up at about 4 lbs. and most were happy.

As for the Walker system, I am inclined to belive that, if given reasonable maintenece and either left on the factory settings or adjusted by a competant gunsmith, it seems to perform quite well. It is not as robust as a military trigger system or even some other commercial triggers (the Win 70 and Howa come to mind) and (shock!) require periodic inspection by a competant individual, particualy when the weight of pull, sear engaugement, etc. are taken down below factory spec. I suspenct that many of the guns at issue here have either been poorly maintained, tweaked by incompetants, or both.

I prefer the Winchester M70 trigger for serious working rifles. Bigger, more robust pieces, somewhat more crud-tolerant, and you set sear engugement with a stone rather than a screw. This tends to be very stable.

Norinco 45s:

The Chinese will build anything you want to any quality standard you specify. Just look at the wild variability in build quality on Chinese SKSs for proof. The Norinco .45s are at least as well made as anything Uncle Sam took delivery of in WWII, and are probably better in some respects. The only thing I would swap out is the springs, though to be honest I am still running the OEM springs in mine with no problems. Mine was $225 in mint condition out of a pawn shop, easily one of my better purchases ever. Perfect function, every time, virtually all ammo. Scary accurate, too.

8-Rounders:

Okay. I havent worked with 8-round M1911 mags much, but Undude's comments tend to confirm the old Heinlein quote, "There aint no such thing as a free lunch". Duly noted. I will stick with Pachmeyr 7-rounders.

Arming Teachers:

This is not something I would expect or even really want school administrators to activly support, but if I could legaly carry at school (either the universtiy I attend and teach at or the high school classrooms I will soon be working in), I would do so. I feel that I owe the additional level of protection I can contribute to my students, not to mention myself.

Further, teachers that are armed should be done so primarily with the idea in mind that they will be pretecting others as much as themselves, so teachers that are armed should be trained well beyong typical CCW requirements and up to the standards of law enforcement, including annual or biannual requals, shoot-dont shoot scenaros, the whole schmear. I would readily submit myself to this standard. I suspect few of my future peers would be willing to do so, which is probably just as well.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 15:03:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

---

I am dyslexic NOT STUPID .
Yes, I did adjust the triger on my 700 Rem.I do not carry it around with my finger on the trigger, flipping the saftey on and off.

There are 4, 1911's in this house and no problems. They will eat it all, even those lead fouling wadcutters. 7,8 and 10 round mags.

It's called proper maintanance.

Local news, Bank robbery. Dumb crook asked the teller to hand over the money she stepped away from the counter and refused.. The crook ran out of the bank, as broke as he entered. Only now he is a felon.

In this day of law suites you can sue your neighbor because his dog p****d on your grass and it turned yellow, or the leaves from his tree blew in your yard and you had to rake them.
Lawsutes are 99.9% bulls***
Let me see my neighbor parked his big truck in my driveway and left deep ruts in it that should be worth about $10.000, but I will have to sue fof about $25,000 so I can pay the damn lawyer.

Attacking the White House with a .38, sounds like a suicide attempt to me.

All most forgot, I burned some where around 10.000 rounds of .45 acp last year, not one stoped.

As always, I claim no responsibility for others.
Bud <offah@hotmail.com>
Greens Fork , In., USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 15:13:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.106.153.63)

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CDC/Spyder; I agree with the CDC on the Sendero issue. This was Remington's way of building accurate Sniper Rifles with Hunting credentials and as the name implies they were supposedly made to shoot down "senderos" these are brush cuts down in Tejas normally cutting up mesquite into shooting lanes for deer blinds located as much as 25' up in the air. I have used and still own Sendero's and Varmint synthetics but all have had the barrels shortened to
20"-22". Although there is about 2 lbs taken off the advantage is mostly the leverage in handling due to the shorter barrel and better balance for carrying. What I like to do is Shorten the Sendero to 20" and install a BOSS or other good muzzle device or your own choice.
I suggest the BOSS because you can tune the accuracy to different loads and also you can purchase the BOSS that doesn't have the holes cheaply so that you won't loose your hearing everytime you have to fire it in the field. The next thing you should notice is that a Magnum such as the 300 or 7mm will loose a lot of power when shortened. A .308 or .260 is a much better candidate. If you must have a magnum I'd go to a BDL or Mountain Rifle and retain the longer barrel. It's doubtful you will actually extend your kill range much with magnums (but on dangerous game OR large plains game moose or elk I would go to the .338 magnum anyway)...because the accuracy at long ranges will suffer to a small extent.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 15:16:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

---

Bravo; reading you loud and clear now! on open sights issue. I know how this sounds but I'd prefer the scope in any light but it's what you're used too. You probably know what I mean by Guns up at WH now.
They are so magnificent on those roof tops when they're protecting "my president". Instead of storming Waco Sunday Schools.
Ouch! That's cruel. Really, I do appreciate the "men in black" when they do their thing against the BG. That's why we have this MIlitary can't be used against the populace thing. A country should be proud of it's troops not fear them. How did I get here... nuts.
Michael; Your post is well received here at this hide! We need a lot more of that kind of thing vs. Pissing contests about what is best.
I filed it in my notes!
Hexa; we mericans are a nostalgic crowd of hero worshipers over here. We have the corner on the John Wayne Movies you know. Unertl is a national hero. Hey, we gotta have our heros from somewhere. We just survived 8 years of the enemy in our camp.
Bob French; the Stealth will adjust to a good trigger or I miss my guess. I've never had a Winchester that wouldn't do fairly well given the good treatment.
Remingtons; Any trigger can be made dangerous. I doubt seriously if very many if any ever left the factory adjusted wrong. This issue with the Lub is probably valid. I remove all lubricants from triggers before I adjust them. I suggest that most accidents involve what was described above. Finger on trigger unaware as the safety goes off.
Poor trigger work accounts for the rest.
Someone touted his RIUUUUGEr! The Mod 77 Ruger is subject to problems but is far less likely to cause trouble and actually a good unit..than the new politically correct one that is an accident waiting to happen if someone fools with it at all.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart..com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 15:28:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

---

Just bought a "used but never fired" remington pss this week. I took the stock off and noticed that the aluminium bedding block has been filed/ground down a little where the receiver touches the stock. I was wondering if HS Pres ever did this to ensure a proper fit?

Thanks
Geoff
Geoff <ggleaton@hotmail.com>
Sprinfield, SC, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 16:13:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.150.168.77)

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Can anyone recommend a good ballistics program for Windows? Doesn't matter if it's shareware or freeware. Thanks.

-mike
mike <mjr_missouri@hotmail.com>
MO, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 16:30:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.41.41.214)

---

Unertl 10X

Does anyone have an URL that gives hardcore statistics about this scope such as the number of lenses inside, the amount of light loss, etc. Basically something that you use to compare it to the Mark IV 10x. Also, does it have a 30mm tube? Can you use the Mark IV or Badger mounting system? Thanks
 

-mike
mike <mjr_missouri@hotmail.com>
MO, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 16:46:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.41.41.214)

---

cbmarshall,

<QUESTION: 30 inch tall target at .9 mils. Why can't this be located on a mildot master? Also exact mil heights are critical beyond 700 yards. Why does the mildot master not be graduated in finer increments? Example: 30 inch tall target at 1.4 mils. Where is 1.4 mils? Answer: Somewhere between 1.25 and 1.5. See my point, as accuracy needs to be keener, measurement marks are course.>

ANSWER: To calculate with finer increments, use the bullet drop scale on the right-hand side. In your example, a 30 inch target (on the Bullet Drop scale) aligned with the 1.4 mils on the mil scale to the right, puts the Target Range index at a point between 590 and 600 yards. Run it through a calculator and you will come up with 595.238 yds.

I'd say the Mildot Master's accuracy is "close enough for Government work."

By the way, this information is in the Owner's Manual, next to last page (Appendix I), if your manual has a revision date of 21 Jan 2000 . Before that, it was on a separate page inserted into the manual.

If you have lost the page, e-mail me and I will e-mail you a copy.

Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 17:11:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.137)

---

Steve, on the mall incident:

Due to an incident with some paramedics under siege by a laser pointer device, California passed AB221, a law making assault with a laser pointer a misdemeanor. You have to reasonably assume the laser is attached to a firearm. Because of this, I cannot understand why people buy these devices and give them to their kids as toys. If you see a dot on your chest in low light, this should result in seeking cover an drawing weapons. Section 417.25 and 417.26 Other states may have similar...
 
 

Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Deep South, Kalifornistan, Barely in the USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 17:22:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.102.182.122)

---

Stocks...
Anyone here have any experience with the McMillan LOD stock? I know LOD went belly-up, and Guns magazine gave the LOD rifles a great review (for what ever that's worth). The stocks have really come down in price. Are they any good (MikeM, Rick, 'Lito or anyone else with experience with them)? Are they a good alternative to the more expensive (by twice as much) A4 and A3?
Later and thanks
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 18:00:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.58)

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Robert Sweeney (resweeney@intellex.com),

You have sent me a number of emails (5 or 6 already?) about info you want. But when I reply the messages bounce back to me! What gives?

That is the email address I got off your mail.

The only info we have is that in the In Review section.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 21:20:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 163.203.229.197)

---

I dont know if this is the proper format....but cannot find another
way to contact you. My husband and I own the Blue Steel ranch
shooting range in New Mexico (home of the Shootist and Steel Safari
shooting matches....primarily designed for law enforcement and
military personel training...We would like to give you info on these.

If I dont have the right e mail please excuse me....We dont have
a computer as of yet and I go to the public library once a week.
Please advise either by e mail or phone on how to send you the info
505-576-9629 or steelsafari@hotmail.com Thank you. Lorraine
and Dave Wheeler
Dave and Lorraine Wheeler/Blue Steel Ranch Shooting Range,New Mexico <steelsafari@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 21:48:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.206.184.229)

---

Geoff...
The H-S Stocks get a tweaking from time to time... some come from the factory with the barrel nearly touching the side of the barrel channel... it's NOT a reflection on the stock... it's impossible to make a stock in one company, and an action in another (neither related to the other), and have them fit perfectly, and you still be able to afford.
Those shooters in the "know", usually chew out some of the aluminum in the front, and glass bed the action.

Mike...
First, there is no such site for unertl, or MK4 data that I've ever heard of... but if you found it, it would be of no help at all.

Scopes arew not like Hi-Fi sets, where you read a bunch of numbers, and drag it home, telling youb buddies that your set will reproduce sound 0.003 db flatter than theirs.

Number of lenses inside is meaningless (less is better!)

The amount of light loss is even more meaningless... your eyes are not capable of determining the difference between between 94% and 96%... you would need a lab grade photometer to measure it, and the measurement would be meaningless... the 96% one would NOT look brighter than the 94% one... the 96% one would not look brighter than an 88% one!!

Flair is very important, but nobody measures it, because it's impossible to measure in a repeatable fasion... so the numbers get to be like "HiFi Amplifier Watts"... Nada!!

You can't pick these instruments by spec sheets... they all have real differences in usable features, and it's this list of features that MUST be the prime criteria that you use... and then you just live with any other short comings... if you need an M3, but get a target scope because it has 2% more light transmission, or three "more" lenses, you have failed, and your scope will be nearly useless.

The unertl has a 1" tube... you can use it on anyone's bases, with 1" rings, or 1" adaptors in 30MM rings.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 22:35:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)

---

Hi All,
The members here were so helpful with the Long Range Shooting Simulation. I have had a lot of requests for a metric version. I have a demo up on the site in metric. I could use some shooters to review it and see if this will work. There are some limitations based on the software calculations plus I didn't really want to reprogram the whole dang thing.
Further info at the site:
http://www.shooterready.com/metric.html
Thanks,
Karin
Karin Christensen <karinc@shooterready.com>
Murrieta, CA, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 23:49:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.30.217.254)

---

Hello fellow snipers. I am building a sniping rifle a savage 10fp .308. That doesn't really matter but what do you think about lapping or fire-lapping? Would it help accuracy? How is it done? If any one can help thank you.
d. frost <the frosts@copper.net>
LewisCenter, OHIO, USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 23:51:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.41.196.37)

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D frost,

Check out the "FINAL FINISH" on either www.jarheadtop.com or www.zediker.com.
 
 
 

TR <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 01:28:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.184)

---

Hi all,

Well I got a question regarding a Colt "Sporter" H-Bar Match. Here's the question, there is a block over the safety selector, and I want to put in a Jewel trigger or a JP trigger, so will it function with that block there? Is there a DCM legal trigger out there that will work.
Second question regarding this rifle: How do they compare in accuracy with other types of weapons (I know Bushmaster is the king cause I got one), I am using a 75gr Hornady match with 23.0 gr Varget. Any info of any type regarding this thing would be great!

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 01:38:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.113)

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LEUPOLD M3??
Has anyone had any experience with the Leupold 3-10 LR M3 with the illuminated mil-dot? Wanting to know if the illumination will stand up to a 300 mag. Also how the scope performs in general on large caliber rifles. THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 02:21:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.177.19.119)

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Sniper Scopes: 'lito gave a good analysis. Let me add a bit. Optical clarity, ie., brightness, is a function of many things.

Quality of glass is one. For years the best coming out of Europe and Japan. One reason German scopes have always been "bright". Number of lenses...each will lose some light transmission and effect image quality.

Probably most importand is diameter of the exit pupil. Most top end scopes deliver more "light" than the human eye can use by virtue of exit pupils in the scope being larger than the ability of the human pupil to use all that is being delivered. 'Nuff said.

6.5/08 stuff: All requests for data have been honorer and the packages are in the mail.

6.5 X .284: Have a long weekend coming up on the 19th...will have more for you then...

As a side note: Those who get Rifle Magazine take note of Custom Corner this month. Steve Nelson is showcased. Steve is the Secretary of the American Custom Guncrafters Guild, an artison, my mentor, and hunting companion. His stuff is not made for snipers, but descerning hunters. Look the pictoral over. I think you'll agree.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 03:05:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.173)

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All Hogs:

Email addresses. Ladies and Gents - some of you out there have inquired about getting an email address in the riflemen.net domain.

We are offering those for any of younz for the price of $24 per year. You can use this email address anywhere you want. No longer would you be stuck with changing your email address each time you change your isp. We also offer a web based interface so that you can check your mail while traveling (out of your normal A.O).

We can do tricks like: ken.hunter@riflemen.net or 308Towed@riflemen.net, or
Old.Rifleman.Pablito@riflemen.net :)

There is one and only one point of contact for this campaign: me

contact me via email if any of younz are interested.

thanks,

ken :)
 
 
 
 
 

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 03:49:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

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Geoff, as stated by another, glass bed it. The shiny places on the bedding block indicate points of contact, and both of my Senderos weren't evenly bedded.
Windinmane <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 04:07:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.20)

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Hey Gents: Just a heads up, HOLE IN THE WALL has Leupold 3.5X10 LR M3 mildot scopes for 694.00, S&H included. This is the best price I've found for it. Should be getting mine in a couple days...

loper <loper@micron.net>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 07:00:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.70.43.231)

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To all my fellow officers, who are issued or carry AR's on duty:
Looking for information on LE Depts who allow their officers to carry AR's on patrol.
Wanting to know: what the department policy is, what are the guidelines, if ammunition type is mandated, use of force, take home or not and anything else that might be usefull.
Email me privately, so as to not take up space here.
Thanks, looking forward to the information and ya'lls help.

Pakrat
aka-Patrick Sloan
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 08:47:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

---

Robert Sweeney:

Your e-mail address won't work.
It keeps bouncing.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 12:15:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

---

Loper: D&R has M3LRs for $677.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 13:30:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

---

Did you guys read this on mad 7.62 ammo and M1A?
 

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html
 

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 14:42:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

---

cbmarshall...
I've seen but not used a mildot master so cannot add to what bruce has already posted. I personaly use a regular pocket slide rule...it is smaller, more rugged (aluminum), fits in my butt cuff pouch, and is more versatile should other math problems need solving. It does take an extra step I believe the mil dot master does not but would be one answer to your question.
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
TX, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 15:27:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.144.151.137)

---

Loper: I didn't mean to give you $20 worth of buyer's remorse. You'll love the M3.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 15:41:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

---

Update on the laser pointer vs .38 at the mall.

Seems that TWO guys, both 38yrs old were involved in the harrasment of a 66yr old man and his wife. Lased elder gentleman's eyes, grabbed, shoved, and spun him around. Evidently, he felt threatened and drew down. Here is the kicker- the elderly man, his wife and the non-laser toting accomplice were all legally packing! Could have been really messy!

The guy with the laser is being charged with harrasment, and disorderly conduct. The older guy is expected to have charges of reckless endangerment, simple assault, and terroristic threats filed against him.

The article was more about the number of CCW in our county. One in eight adults according to the paper (38,000 CCW with population of 288,734). County Sheriff (who issues CCW and performs necessary background checks) quoted as saying, "Its an indication that we're a pretty law-abiding, law-conscious community with a large percentage of our population obeying the law. One thing it does not mean is that 38,000 people are out there carying guns at the same time."

Maybe make the criminals think twice when choosing victims.... with a 1:8 chance of running into an armed citizen. I almost feel a little safer.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South West , PA, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 16:02:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

---

Sendero bedding:

My 7mm mag Sendero SF is shooting 1/2 - 3/4 MOA with just about all loads tried so far. In other words it's extremely consistant but not the 1/4 MOA shooter I was hoping for.

I've seen where glass bedding aluminum block-bedded 700's has been recommended.

Questions:

1. How much increase in accuracy can be expected from glass bedding?

2. How is it done, considering that there is an aluminum bedding block already in place?

3. Did anyone try blackening the aluminum bedding block edges and then VERY CAREFULLY removing metal from the high spots until they had an even aluminum bed fit with no high spots? The accuracy results?

All I intend to use mine for is long range deer and elk hunting, plus long range targets. It's already accurate enough for hunting, but being a perfectionist I'm not going to be happy until I get it shooting all shoots into one hole. Can this be done with Remington 700's with aluminum bedding blocks?
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies where it's 10 below this am, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 16:09:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.99)

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Flash,
Is that is for 5 shot groups?? If so I am not being a wise ass but if I were you and I had a mag shooting that consistant I wouldn't worry about it. If your looking for a quarter inch consistant rifle you better plan on spending a lot of money and about all you would use out of your original gun would be the action. I am not even sure you would get a 7MM Mag to shoot that tight all the time, even if you could. (By the way our wind chill is -58 below this morning so I know the feeling)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 17:08:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

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COLORADO ROSTERFARIANS...... There is a bill being brought in front of our State Legislature, by our left-wing 'friends' from the Front Range that will force the publication (and public disclosure) of all State citizens holding concealed carry permits. When this was done by one County last year it resulted in this list being published by a local newspaper (Ft. Collins area?). IMHO it appears that the socialists wish to single us out to be held up in scorn and to public ridicule and discrimination!

Ostensibly, their reasoning goes along the "public has a right to know" lines, the same one that the newspapers use to defend their precious First Ammendment rights, while all to happily trampling on our Second Ammendment protections.

One solution might be to require the publishing of the names of all those that are HIV-positive, are infected with the AIDS virus, TB, any STD, Hepatitus, Herpes, have been diagnosed or adjudicated as mentally unstable, or are sex-offenders, drug users, and those convicted of comitting assault on the at risk (disabled or elderly)! These individuals comrprise a segment of the population that put the majority 'at risk', therfore the public has a right to know, don't we?

Please call and write your State lawmakers - MAKE YOURSELVES HEARD!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 17:32:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.77)

---

To Geoff;
The bedding blocks in the Rem,/HS stocks are ground at the factory to make the best fit they can in the time alloted.
To Flash;
Yes bedding might help get a little more accuracy out of your rifle but I think that you are looking for a little too much when you think that a factory rifle will give you 1/4" accuracy. A true 1/4" rifle, one that will do 1/4" on demand, is rare as is the shooter that can do this on demand.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 17:32:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.81.87.82)

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Good day fellow Rosterfarians.......

Alan;
Colorado, has unfortunately become Californicated over the past 10-15 years...........water runs downhill, liberal puke idiology runs from the left coast to the east.........sorry to say.

Off topic, but a real dandy,heard on the rad this A.M.........
Guy had a bit tooo much libations, went out to his car, to listen to some CD's.......
In his OWN drive way......started playing the music a tad too loud for the neighbors tastes.
They call the PD.......they come out, arrest him, and he goes before a judge.
The judge rules the guy is guilty of DUI.......says he was IN control of the vehicle( not moving), and IN his OWN drive way........
And impounds the guy's $40K automobile.........
Moral?.......don't listen to CD's, in your car if tipsy....the fascist's are about...........
this of course happened in the peoples republic of Mass.
And I thought I had heard it all.............

Flash, Jerry, there is only one guy that visits this site, that can consistently shoot 1/4" moa about at will.( there may be several others), but only ONE I know of..........w/ a .308.

Two Shoes
No more sittin', and steenkin"....I mean drinkin'!!!!!!
Sheesh, man I'm glad I live in Tejas!!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 18:30:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.58)

---

Pat:

It was indeed 5 shot groups off sandbags at 100 yards I was talking about. However, if I put 4 shots into a nice round 1/2 MOA group, and then let one flier slip out to 3/4, and I called it out before looking, I only use the best 4 for group size.

I know thats "cheating", but what I'm trying to find out is how accurate my new RIFLE actually is, and how it responds to various loads, so I throw out shots I know for sure are due to gross SHOOTER ERROR. Otherwise the stats would be skewed and I might not recognize which loads have the best prospects of being tweaked into 1/4 MOA.

I can and do hold 1/3 MOA one-hole 5 shot groups (and 1/4 MOA 3 shot groups) with my .308 Savage Scout off sand bags, with my best pet load, with no problem, and with only 1-2 out of 20 shots being called out due to shooter error. So if I can hold 1/3 MOA with my 6 1/4 pound Savage, I certainly think I should be able to the same, or better, with my 8 1/2 pound Sendero. (Add 1 and 2 pounds respectively, for scopes).

So far the Sendero is at best a 1/2 MOA rifle, even though I have fired a few 1/4 - 1/3 MOA 3 shot groups with it. However, I haven't tried many different load combos yet. So the final verdict isn't in, and it very well may turn out to be a 1/4 MOA shooter with a load I haven't tried yet.

What makes you think 7mm mags are inaccurate anyway?
 
 

Cops "carrying" out of jurisdiction with local permission:

Yesterday I was just advised by an LEO in-the-know that one of the SWAT teams that took down the Texas Seven in COLORADO, was El Paso SWAT. So it seems that cops "carrying", and performing special LE assignments out-of-jurisdiction, is still alive and well and nothing unusual.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 18:46:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.113)

---

A couple of you sent e-mails requesting D&R's web-site:

http://dnrsports.com/

They are the cheapest I've found, but their service isn't as good as some others.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 19:14:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Two shoes:

Are you saying you only know one person who can shoot 1/4 MOA groups OFF SAND BAGS at 100 yards??? Or are you talking about prone off bi-pods or something?

Hell, I always figured I could put all my shots through the same hole if the rifle was up to it. But so far, my homely Savage Scout .308 with conventional Redfield 3-9 Accutrac is the only rifle I've ever owned that would do it.

I sure wish some of you guys would try my pet .308 load and let me know what it will do in your rifles.

Pet .308 load:

42.0 gr Reloader 15, 155 gr SMK Palmas, Fed 215 primers (it gets real cold here so I use 215's for everything), Remington nickel cases, 2.775/80 COL.
 

M1 Garand pet load:

As long as I'm giving out pet loads, here's one to try in your M1 that gives me 3/4 MOA 3 shot groups out of a box-stock field grade Garand:

48.0 gr Accurate Arms 2520, 150 Nosler Ballistic Tip, Fed 215's, and 3.320 COL.

I don't do anything special except crimp the finished loads lightly with a Lee crimper die to prevent bullets from being pushed back into the cases.
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 19:16:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.113)

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Flash; That's the way I play golf. If one goes on the airport... I don't count it. But on rifles I count em all. Shooting is about he same. You get a feel for how the rifle shoots after while but if you go to a match. They will count em all. SNIPERS are not allowed Mulligans as a rule. BR boys shoot 10 shots and call that group.
A SNIPER would probably shoot 3 shots every day for a month and measure the group size.
Hey Rice man where you been? Coyotes got you I thought!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 19:38:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Terry,

There are a number of folks out there with rifles that can shoot 1/4 moa or better with Federal GM ammo. There are also a number of shooters that can do it. Not every time always, but often.
(Not me by the way, only if all the planets line up)
Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 19:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

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Flash,
I didn't say a 7MM Mag wasn't accurate but I don't feel its a consistant quarter inch rifle either, esp a sendero. Most magnums and esp shooters are not capable of consistant quarter minute groups day in and day out. I have had guns that were, one was a 22PPC and one was a 6mmBR both of these rifles would shoot in the .2s and low.3s on and average and sometimes in the .1s and that was counting all 5 including flyers. I would average five, 5 shot groups to get my total average for the gun. Most times my average was in the .25 range I am sure I was the weak link most of the time. I have had days where I flat just couldn't shoot up to the potential of the rifle and if you don't keep shooting off of a bench its a skill that goes away fast!! My first few range sessions in the spring are sometimes ugly(HA).

There are a lot of people who will shoot a group that is close to a one holer and then tell everyone there gun shoots .2s or .3s when in reality its probably a true 3/4" rifle that shot a great group. Now don't get me wrong I am NOT saying thats what you did its just something I see a lot of. Some guys carry a group around in their wallet like a family picture.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 20:46:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

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Pat,
I have one of those "family pictures" of a group Undude shot with my Rice Rifle. If I ever feel that I shot a good group, I pull out that scrap of paper and I then quickly shut up!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 21:01:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

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Flash, to think you will get 1/4 moa accuracy from a 7mm mag Sendero is overly optimistic at best...

Consider the Benchrest crowd, using purpose-built 6ppc tight neck, custom action, glued in rifles w/2 oz. triggers, front and rear rest and 36x scopes. A match winner can often be found in the pages of Precision Shooting magazine with 1/4 moa results (aggregate).

Forget that Holy Grail, because it ain't realistic for a tactical rifle, and I would defy anybody to get that sort of performance on a consistent basis with a tactical rifle and appropriate caliber. Save your replies with "oh yeah, I shot a minus zero point nothing group at 300y with blah blah".

Be happy with CONSISTENT results, and to have them in the 1/2-3/4 moa range is darn good, and good enough for certain. If you want to shoot a game animal at 600y, IMHO you should be doing so only if the animal was previously wounded, or you are truly starving. Otherwise, it's just chest-thumping at the possible expense of an innocent creature, and hunters have enough trouble with the PETA crowd already.
Nate H. <a@b.com>
Occupied, CA, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 21:48:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.194)

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I knew that "no count" flier would get you guys going! But bear in mind I have a fairly new rifle and am trying to see what it likes best.

If I have a 3/4 MOA group except for one flier (which I called so I knew it was my fault) I record the group as a "4 out of five = 3/4", so later when I go back and sort through potential loads I won't pass up a good one due to one measley flier skewing the stats.

I know at matches that's not done, but for my load work-up experiments it makes sense.

Now if I don't think the flier was my fault, that's a different story.

Anybody else lightly crimp their hunting, duty and autoloader ammo? So far, having used the Lee crimper die for 3-4 years, it has worked fine and I've not noticed any accuracy problems with crimped loads. The one caution is to crimp only the minimum amount needed to hold the bullet securely and no more. You don't want to damage the bullet.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies where the snow is 3' deep and rising!, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 22:01:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.101)

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Flash, and others.....if you guy's can "Consistently", put 5 175's in a .250@ 100 yards, ya'll are truly nasty shots............
I better change sites.Cause you are a heck of a lot better N me!!!!!!

Two Shoes
In a saddened state);
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 22:35:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.203)

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Flash; I think you're OK with what your doing but there are lurkers here who may not understand. I group is a group. If a rifle shoots 3 groups in 1/2" and 1 in 3". It's a 3" rifle. If it shoots 1" on a 80 degree day and 2" on a 100 degree day it's a 2" rifle and so forth.
What we need and would like to have is a rifle that shoots 1 MOA all the time and hopefully it will do it in a calm at any range up to 800 or 1000 yards. It has to shoot that within 1 moa to an impact point to be much use. In other words it can't move around beyond the temperature variations computed. It's hard to find a powder or bullet that will stay within this. Rifles like Jerry Rice and Geo Gardiner and 50 others I haven't named will do this. Very few others will.
It's easy to imagine you have been the cause when a group goes array! But lots of the time it's rifle and ammo variations instead. Let me say this as a general rule not that I believe in general rules but if you have to throw one away every time or every other time. You got problems of the equipment kind. Pat'; ditto what you said in that last post... that is soooooo true!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 22:49:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Dudes
While this tight group topic is still up I gotta squeeze in a couple
thoughts.
Been shooting a while. Got into serious shooting and handloading when I was 18. Twelve odd years ago. I had a rifle a Savage 110 HB in .223. It would shoot everything I fed it into a spot easily covered by a nickle. When I started reloading for it 5 shots at 100 covered by a dime. I measured groups with change in those days as I hadn't been around anyone that knew what in the hell they were doing.
That rifle was a box stock rifle no trigger work, and as I recall a $225 dollar Weaver fixed 15 on top.
I traded that rifle off after I started reading about how inferior my Savage was and yes it did look like shit next to a tricked out Remington.
I've had several 223 rifles since then and not one will group with that one.
Point behind all this is you all know that on occasion a rifle leaves the factory with obvious need for improvements but it will shoot lights out every time no matter who's behind it.
Flash your rifle is shooting better than it's built right now. Don't expect it to be a Bench Rest Rifle although it is close right now. If you are expecting 1/4 inch groups from a magnum your search will be long and expensive and if you part with that bolt gun in the quest you may like me look back on that with resentment later.

Two Shoes
Don't you dare find another cite if you're feeling inferior over your group sizes I'll start lying about how big mine are for your benefit HA double HA. as Bravo would say.
Gone till 0200
JC
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
One Hole on Occasion, KY, USA - Friday, February 09, 2001 at 23:12:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.164)

---

A little help for a brand new reloader???

I just loaded a few bullets up but I'm not sure if they are going to
explode or not :)

I bought a pound of Hodgdons' Benchmark (extreme powders) and some
CCI primers to load up my 69gr. Sierra Match Kings (.223) in some
once fired Lake City brass.

I am having problems finding load data on this particular powder.
I know it's very similar to Varget, but what I don't think the
charges are the exact same.

I tried to play it safe and loaded them with 22 grains. Is this
safe? If anyone has used this bullet/powder combo I'd sure love to
hear from you, or if you know where I can get some good data from
that would be great too.

I've looked on the Hodgdon's web site, but I didnt' see any data for
69 gr bullets.

In case you are wondering, I'm shooting these out of my AR-15. It's a 24" Wilson bull barrel with a 1 in 8 twist, and I'm loading the bullets to maximum magazine length.

Thanks!
J.T.
J.T. Naylor <jtnaylor@flash.net>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 02:12:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.15.96.76)

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I don't have any comments but I do have a question. I am planning on getting a Remington 700P in 7mm Remington Magnum. My first question is do you know what kind of options Remington offers, i.e....stainless barrel w/matte parkerized finish, options for the stock, camoflauging ect.

My second question is do you think that 7mm Rem. Mag. would be a good caliber as far as accuracy is concerned? Should this rifle be able to shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with factory ammo?

THANKS, MATT
Matt Cohrs <mattacohrs@aol.com>
Lynnwood, WA., USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 02:25:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.48)

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Bro Two Shoes: it's all in how you look at it. I'd be devistated if the M-25 "opened up" to 0.25" at 100 yards. But then again, I shoot lots of 1 round groups ;-) After all, a 0.25" group would mean that the SMK's were coming apart in flight, and that's B-A-D! HA! That dude in his driveway will beat the charges more than likely. One can drive drunk all one wants, as long as it's your own property. This is a good reason for having your property perimeter fenced and "no trespassing" signs posted. That applies to police, IRS, and BATF as well as paultry citizens. Anyone without a signed and open warrant on your property can and will be arrested, whether they're in uniform or not. That's part of my arguement to people who state "we should register guns like we register cars". Sure. Only guns carried in public are registered (you don't have to register one used on your property), you can purchase one instantly at any age, after it's registered it can go anywhere in the country without permits, and the list goes ON AND ON ;-)

Flash: It's been my experience that crimping is much ado about nothing. I don't crimp rounds for ANYTHING, that includes the battle rifle and the M-25. If the necks are tensioned properly, it's unnecessary at the best case, detrimental to accuracy at the worst. I "debell" my cases with a crimping die, but it's really not crimping as much as it is just returning the brass to it's original condition. The WORST, as I understand it, crimper in the world is the LEE factory crimp. It's been labelled "bad" by Sierra, Hornady, Nossler, Barnes, and some others! BTW: your beauty Garand load is quite similar to my old match load. Here's a good way to test your case neck tension: take a loaded round, put the bullet tip on the loading bench with the case head sticking right up at you. Try to press that sucker THROUGH the benchtop. If it moves, you've got problems. If I can't seat it deeper under max force, running it up a feed ramp isn't going to do ANYTHING to it. On carrying out of jurisdiction: they might be doing it, but it's not legal. More of a "professional courtessy" than anything they can't be arrested for.

Alan: I agree it's bad and not moral, but things could develop. Imagine the guy behind the counter checking "the list" for the name at the top of your check "AH! you get a 10% discount!" Heaven knows I'm LOTS more accomodating to my pistol packing cohorts.

Patron Mike: I did call Wilson as I said I would. This is what I got. I was told that the 7 rounder follower/spring combo was a "better" one, as the spring itself was thicker and sturdier. It was recommended, as he felt the 8 rounder spring compressed too much. Again, this was coming straight from Wilson Combat. The follower was $4, the follower and spring was $4.99, and would fit in any tube. Thought you'd like to hear this!

And for the New Mexico crew: if I don't get some feedback, I'm going to punt. So far I've got "groceries" for 2 cases Heineken, 2 cases 80 shilling, a case of Black&Tan (Guiness/Fosters), and a case of Irish Red. Anything else is going to be pretty much "by request".
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the free, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 02:31:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.146)

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G'day eh!!

Colder than hell here in S. Dakota, I'm supposed to be in the 'banana belt' dammit. I've had a better winter than ol' mrbullet though.

7mm Rem Mag:

Probably one of the most finicky calibers as far as accuracy is the 7mm category. A 1/2-3/4 MOA factory rifle out of box is an EXCELLENT shooter!!! I wouldn't worry about grinding on the aluminum block, hey if you need to bed the thing, bed behind the recoil lug and call it good. You are definitely one of the lucky ones if you have a consistent 1/2" to 3/4" shooter. I believe 1 MOA is the standard for most factory rifles.

One of the worst groupings I've seen in the 7mm category is the STW, the harder you push it, the further the drop in accuracy. I know some of you out there have STW's that'll out shoot 308's any day, but that isn't the norm at our range.

One of the big reasons some 7mm's shoot better than others is that every company has a different idea on what the bore and groove dimensions should be. Bullet diameter (SAAMI)is usually .2837" to .284, but bore diameters range from .275" to .278" and grooves from .283 to .285".

There are so many factors for a rifle to consistently shoot a 1/4 MOA group, every rifle is unique. Some only shoot when they're clean, some shoot better when they're dirty or fouled. Some shoot better in the rain, some shoot better at -58 degrees wind chill. Its up to the shooter to find the limits of his weapon. My old man's rifle doesn't seem to shoot well until at least 3 Marlboro 100's are inhaled. It's almost kooky!!

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 02:49:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.14)

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Put 3 under a dime at 200 w/ newly bedded 300 WM and quit....trigger at 3 1/2....like paintin' the house I cain't do it consistently enough to make a living at it, though I suppose I'll have to finish that group sooner or later and end this wonderful fantasy......
Windinmane <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 02:55:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.188)

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Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)

Ref: Dad's Diploma
 

Apparently this may be a national thing. In September 1999, my dad, along with a bunch of WWII vets, received his high school diploma from his hometown in Massachusetts. I was unable to make it to the ceremony being in Florida.

Dad saw service in Italy and France as part of an arty crew. Like your dad, he never talked about the war or joined the VFW or the American Legion, just came home and built a life.

He died two months later on the eve of his 85th birthday. I was lucky in that I got to see him about a month earlier for a week.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 03:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.61)

---

It is indeed encouraging to see here, that so many
Windinmane <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 03:10:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.188)

---

........"Good Guys" can shoot,and shoot well......
Windinmane <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 03:14:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.188)

---

I previously posted a problem I was having with assembly of an AR-15
from a kit where the bolt was not cycling all the way forward when attempting to charge. (Previous posting on Feb 6).

Okay. A break-through has occurred. I removed the
firing pin and sure enough, the bca cycles just like
it's supposed to. Definitely the hammer is catching
on the firing pin. Upon inspection of the firing pin,
the "collar" that butts up against the bca (as opposed
to the knob on the end that the hammer strikes) has
been banged up a little by the hammer crashing into it
when the bca is travelling forward.

Now what? I'm not sure how to remedy this. Removing
material from the hammer seems harsh and perhaps
something I may not be qualified to do. Go back to the parts house for a different hammer? Any suggestions?

Matt Smith <usmyrmss@yahoo.com>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 03:38:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.57.227)

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OPEN LETTER AND INVITATION TO ALL L.E. OR MILITARY.

I just checked a few days ago with Steve Campbell regarding the number of registered teams signed up so far for the North American Sniper Championship. Steve (one of the primary putter-oners of this match) advised that there were only a little over 20 teams preregistered so far. They have room for 50 teams!

WHERE THE HECK IS EVERYBODY AT??????

We've attended this match the last two years (previously the Autauga Arms Super Sniper Shootout) and can tell you that it is a very well run event. The RO cadre is professional, courteous, fair and above all SAFE. The match events are spread over 4 days and include some nightfire stages. Just like in real life, consistency is what will carry you through. Teams from all branches of the military as well as rural, metro and state agencies attend. You can quickly find out how you and your equipment fair against motivated teams from across the country. Camp Shelby is a 1st class facility and has excellent accomodations. This is a CHEAP trip too.
 

Shooting this match is at least the equivelant of a two week advanced sniper class. The reason I say this is because if you have at least the basic / intermediate sniper skills, this 4 day event will put the stress on you and your team mate due to the competition and surprise stages. You'll both have to quickly adapt and execute a solution that will work. My philosophy is that even if you come in last place, you are stronger and better than if you never went at all.

I'm not trying to boost the attendence for Mr. Campbell and am not issuing a dare (sort of). However to read these posts, especially from some of the regulars, I would think there are plenty of you out there that are qualified to attend. The information has been out there for months so don't say you didn't know in time. If I can get my pennys and time off together, ANYBODY can.

Contact these guys, get off your PC and get your gear together. It's your loss if you don't. Not trying to offend or challenge anybody. Just trying to motivate anyone serious about keeping their mission capabilities high.

Everybody stay safe,
Terry

Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 04:14:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.62)

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Just to prove, I visited this site.
jgreggains <greggain@elite.net>
merced, ca, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 04:28:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.62.222.105)

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Bravo:
Just curious as to what FMJ's you may have tried in Garands or M1a and any comments (accuracy wise) you may have. Perhaps some favorite loads to try with the better ones.
Thanks
Rex C. <crackshot223@hotmail.com>
SE, Kansas, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 04:38:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.38.22)

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Two shoes.... Relax my friend. In all 50 states, control of the vehicle - i.e. keys in the ignition, dickwad in the driver's seat, accessible to a public by-way - and with the additional tidbit that dickwad is drunk - equals DUI. BUT WAIT... there's more.... if you are on a bicycle (in control of a vehicle) on a public access by-way, and drunk, you are DUI.

It really didn't hit home with me until I had to scrape a pedestrian's brains out of the back seat of a 1997 Toyota Camry in the fucking rain.

Concentrate on the important things in life. Call your mother. Tell her you love her.
 
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 05:59:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.205.51)

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Two shoes.... Relax my friend. In all 50 states, control of the vehicle - i.e. keys in the ignition, dickwad in the driver's seat, accessible to a public by-way - and with the additional tidbit that dickwad is drunk - equals DUI. BUT WAIT... there's more.... if you are on a bicycle (in control of a vehicle) on a public access by-way, and drunk, you are DUI.

It really didn't hit home with me until I had to scrape a pedestrian's brains out of the back seat of a 1997 Toyota Camry in the fucking rain.

Concentrate on the important things in life. Call your mother. Tell her you love her.
 
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 06:02:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.205.51)

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Lee Crimper

Bravo, etc: I've read the same anti-crimp propaganda from the companies that don't make Lee Crimpers that you guys have. Ever think that the reason they bad-mouth the Lee Crimper is $$$$?

I don't crimp target ammo, but field ammo is different. I want the bullets held tightly so they don't get shoved back into the case when chambered, or worse yet stay in the barrel when the round is ejected. With hunting ammo in particular, the same round may get chambered more than once. A lot more.

Originally being a disbeliever in bullet set-back myself, I tested a lot of 9mm ammo and found that virtually all bullets (factory & handloads) would get pushed back into the case to some extent when chambered repeatedly. A few would be driven back the first time the round was chambered. I assume rifle loads with too-loose projectiles will react similarly, but haven't tested to find out.

When seating rifle bullets with my Rockchucker I can feel when a bullet isn't being held tight enough. With well-traveled cases that's about half of the rounds loaded. With newer cases it's not very many. Regardless, I don't take chances and lightly crimp all field loads.

I haven't noticed any obvious loss of accuracy. But I can see how there could be some if too heavy a crimp was applied, thereby deforming the bullet. But a light crimp works fine.
 
 

Bill R:

How do you figure a rifle that shoots 1 MOA almost all the time, but somehow drops a 2 MOA group every once in a while is a 2 MOA rifle?

That sounds more like a 2 MOA shooter to me. For sure I'd suspect shooter, scope or ammo problems before I'd figure it was the rifle. In fact, I can't say that I ever had a rifle act that way when shooting the same loads. Except, of course, when I lost concentration and blew the group. Or when my scope got loose. Or..........

My Sendero isn't the most accurate rifle I own, but it is the most consistant with various powder and bullet loads. At first I thought there were problems with the rifle, but it turned out to be the scope that was faulty. Since then it has been a 1/2 - 3/4 MOA shooter with everything tried (100 yards off sand bags).

The Savage Scout, on the other hand, only shoots one load well. But with that load it's a genuine one-hole tack-driver.

Same thing with my M1. The guy who sold it to me thought it was a 2-3 MOA shooter. He couldn't believe it when I showed him the 3/4 MOA 3 shot groups, and 1 1/8 MOA 5 shot groups, I was getting with the load alread posted.

The moral? Rifles are like women. They are all different. And it might not be the best looking, highest priced one that is the most fun to play with in the woods.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 06:13:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.98)

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Mat-
1)The dimensions of your bolt carrier or your hammer are wrong. or..
2)Your sear is not catching the hammer. or..
3)Your upper receiver is too loose on the lower. Perhaps a large hole upper on small hole receiver?
4) Your bolt is not chambering properly.

The hammer should not be striking that part of the firing pin. Your "marks" from the hammer shouldn't be there at all. My best guess for long distance repair by your description:

#1- Too large of a hammer would not cause your problem, but too small could. Very rare unless poor quality parts are used. I doubt anything in the bolt carrier assembly with the exception of the firing pin could be off dimension. You wouldn't be able to cycle the bolt if they were.

#2-If the hammer/trigger function normally after removing the firing pin, check to see that the hammer remains down after cycling. If the hammer is not down- replace the trigger and sear. This is probably it.

#3-If the receiver is loose. The hammer is riding under the bolt carrier. If the receiver is tight, and it is a quality brand, your bolt carrier or firing pin is wrong.

#4- put the bolt carrier together and place it into the upper. Cycle it by hand off the lower. If the bolt is not going fully into battery the hammer could be hitting the firing pin collar.

I am not a gunsmith- just an armorer for this system. I hope this helps.

Mike T
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 06:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

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Flash,
One habbit I got into from when I first started serious shooting was recording c-t-c spreads for all 5, best 4, and best 3 from each group. I reasoned that it would help me identify what was my fault and what might more accurately reflect what the rifle was capable of.

My 5-shot avg at first was about 1.5" @ 100 yds, with best-3 avg about .6" @ 100 yds. I continued to shoot until I didn't see any more improvement (.8" 5-shot avg, .5" 3-shot avg), then I had my rifle re-bedded, re-crowned, and re-chambered. Now I hit about .6" 5-shot avg and .3" for best 3 consistently off a bipod. What does this tell me? Well, it says that my shooting ability has trippled from where it was initialy, and my rifle's apparent accuracy has about doubled from where it settled out before I had it worked on. But still, considering the delta between .5" (my ability) and .3" (my rifle's ability), my ability is about half what my rifle is capable of. When I can hit in the .3's consistently, it's time to call George or Jerry. Any time before, and I'm wasting my money because *I* am the weak link.

Of course, YMMV, but this method has seemed to have worked for me. Yeah, I still kinda suck, but at least I have some data on which to base my relative suction level.
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Playin' with numbers in Austin, TX, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 07:42:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.160.1.144)

---

I'm not trying to jump on anyone here but I've gone through this personally and made some changes in the way I shoot groups because of it. I'm gonna go a bit long winded here which is something I normally don't do here. It's late as heck and I've tried to make this as clear as possible but I can't say for certain that I've caught all my mistakes. I know there are a few people out there that will see where I'm going and fill in where I left off or forgot to tread.
 

Flash, about that M1A, what is it? Either a 3/4 MOA or a 1 1/8 MOA rifle? Firing a 3 shot group at 3/4MOA and then a 5 shot group at 1 1/8MOA, when describing that rifle's accuracy is it a 3/4MOA rifle or a 1 1/8MOA rifle?

I can't tell you how many times I've fired the first 3 shots out of a 5 shot group and felt tempted to stop at just 3 shots because they went through such a small group, pushing to 5 shots always opens the group up usually to around the 1/2MOA range. I don't even feel right calling out a group size for my rifle if it is a 3 shot group. And just recently I have started to feel funny if I try to give an idication of my rifle's performance if I state performance based off of a 5 shot group.

What Bill R was talking about was probably a bit overexagerated, in my experience a rifle shooting what is consider for it "accurate ammo" typically won't suddenly go from a 1MOA rifle to a 2MOA rifle unless something is wrong, perhaps something like it's barrel contacting with the stock and walking it's shots. But I have encountered something similar to what Bill R is talking about, in my mind what I encountered is due in most part to simple statistics and trying to get some kind of accuracy indication from the number of shots in your groups which is your statistical sampling.

We all agree that typically the more rounds per group the better the indication of what kind of accuracy to expect from the firearm. I experienced what Bill R was talking about when I thought I had come up with some great handloads because for 5 shots they'd average 1/2MOA and sometimes slightly under. I found that on rare occasion the very same loads would all of a sudden give an unexpected 3/4MOA 5 shot group that just jumped out from the middle of nowhere, rather than discount those shots as being the result of a flyer I decided that I need to step upto a larger statistical sampling and fire 10 shot groups to see if there is a tendency for a certain percentage of shots to want to fall out into the 3/4MOA group.

When I started shooting 10 shot groups I found that the 3/4MOA group size was actually fairly typical, I'd have 6-7 shots going through 1/2MOA or less and then the remaining 3-4 shots would push the group to 3/4MOA. So back when I was doing 5 shot groups I thought I had a 1/2MOA rifle that unexpectedly threw the occasional 3/4MOA 5 shot group and I figured it was mostly shooter error. But once I started shooting 10 shot groups while really focusing on what I was doing, I found that 30-40% of the shots fired would fall outside of my expected 1/2MOA grouping and push to the 3/4MOA range.

Flyers, how are you completely sure that it's a flyer if you're doing 3 and 5 shot groups? The fact is those shots might be trying to indicate what is within the accuracy potential of the firearm, try shooting groups until the group size stops opening up. That M1A has hopped from a 3/4MOA rifle for 3 shots to a 1 1/8MOA rifle for 5 shots, if you push for 10 shots does it open up more or does it steady off at 1 1/8MOA?

The only time I consider a shot a flyer is when that particular shot is directly attributed to some slip up by myself during the critical moment the trigger broke. Usually there will be a customary "*!#%" curseword that follows within a split second I suspect my slipup made a difference downrange on the target.

I'm still working with my rifle to see if I can shrink the group sizes any more or if my rifle is really only capable of the 1/2-3/4MOA group sizes that it is doing now. I'm getting so where I'm pretty comfortable with my ability as a shooter but I'm not totally sure of the ability of the rifle.
I say I'm unsure of the ability of the rifle because I consider my handloads as being fairly low tech, I'm going more for quanity right now then for utmost quality, squirrels don't need 1/4MOA ammo that takes 3 hours per 100 to load. If I can turn out 200 rounds in the same period of time and it will shoot only slightly looser into a 1/2-3/4MOA group than so be it, the little flea bags won't know the difference. At the range I typically use my squirrel loads and fire my groups in a fairly fast fire fashion, my slowest 10 shot group is usually done in about 2 mintues with the fastest group done in about a minute. At the range I try to simulate the types of shooting I'll be doing when out in the field and on a rare occasion I might have a couple of squirrels out there that "need poppin" and I'll take as many as 10 shots in 1-2 minutes, gotta love those hotrod AR15s.
 

Over the past year I have fired many, many, many a 10 shot group and I find that the 3/4MOA group is the most valid indicator to what kind of accuracy to expect. Usually 3/4MOA is the largest the rifle will shoot with most any load unless it is something that makes the gun totally puke.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 09:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

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Ref: North American Sniper Championship Attendance

Being restricted to LEO/Mil. can't help attendance or the quality of the competition. I wonder what it does help?

Have a nice Sniper Match.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 10:45:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.66)

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Maybe it is because my sinuses are killing me or it is so early in the morning but could someone tell me how in the hell a submarine with a gazillion dollars worth of electronics can not look to see if he is sufacing under a damn 130' FISHING BOAT? Jeeeeezzzzzzzz!!! Un-fricking believable!!!!

On groups and accuracy and stuff like that. Some guys that I used to shoot with got bored with regular shooting, went out and bought souped up 10/22's and started shooting targets. The next time I saw them they had got tired of shooting targets, too easy. Got to the range and they didn't have any targets set up. I asked them what they were shooting at. They were shooting at flys landing on pieces of bread. What does this have to do with accuracy? I have no idea but it was a good story.

When I actually get time to shoot, I now score my shooting like this. I always mark the cold bore. Then, I shoot three and measure them. Then I shoot 5 and measure them. Then I shoot 10 for a final measure. These shots are made with a minute or two in between shots. In between these groups I run a patch of Hoppes and a dry patch, not even to the point of cleaning. I then do a thorough final cleaning and fire one more "final" shot. Last thing that I do is run a patch of MilTech and a dry patch and put the weapon up. Since I normally carry 6 or 7 rifles each time I shoot, about 20 rounds from each is all I have time for.

I have found that this gives me all the information that would need for all types of shooting conditions to measure how well I, not the rifle, am shooting. By all types of conditions I mean this: if I am hunting I will usually only need one shot thus the cold bore; the 3, 5, and 10 are all tactically related even though I probably will never be in tactical shooting situation. Starting this year, I will also note what position from be it from a bench, prone, etc.

I think too many people blame the weapon rather than the person holding it, and the ammo used, for group size. I have found that the fewer shots that I make and the slower I make them groups will be smaller. The longer I shoot and the more shots that I fire the bigger the group spread. I cannot blame this on the rifle. So now, instead of telling someone how accurate a particular rifle is, I tell them how accurate I am with that rifle. I dare say most any of the expert shooters on this site could pick up any of my weapons and get better performance out of them than I can.
 

You guys have got me way too interested in trying the Stealth now. I wish you would quit and go back to praising the 700's. Two weddings and a grandbaby on the way and I just can't keep this buying habit going!
 

Does anyone know any real live snipers with allergies and how in the heck do they keep from sneezing at the wrong time??????
 

A stopped up head Bolt, Out! Time to blow again, pass them snot rags!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 11:14:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.188)

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Kevin(Andy's dad),

Oh Behave! Terry wasn't trying to rub anybodys face in it. He was posting a notice for slotted sharpshooters/snipers about the match.
On one of the more popular webpages I might add (yes that is a S/C endorsement).
PLEASE lets not start a "sniper elitism" thread, the ladies and gentleman that do it for real need our support and endorsement.

PS- Were you involved in the Premier project with Bob Holtz?
 
 

*******************************************************************
Terry,
How about a follow up on the match for us with descriptions of events, targets, etc. etc. 1*

*******************************************************************
 
 

Flash,
Not to bash, but just about any semi auto firearm will set back projectiles into cases when repeatedly cycled. Feed ramp angles, recoil spring tensions et. al.
 

Nice follow up threads on the RE-15 /308 load data keep it rolling guys!
 

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
RAINY CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 12:11:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.208)

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Bolt-ster, Dude-ski...

>>"You guys have got me way too interested in trying the Stealth now. I wish you would quit and go back to praising the 700's. Two weddings and a grandbaby on the way and I just can't keep this buying habit going!"<<

Lookie Dude... you been to one wedding, you been to them all...
... I know... I been to a bunch, and three, were mine ;((

The dinner is cold, (it had to be brought in, 'cuz the kitchen is being remodeled).
The cake is sooooo bad, that even the married couple only eats one piece (out of politeness), and then throws the rest of it in the freezer for a year, and then sneaks it to the dumpster... the conversation is the same (and never about guns!)... aunt Millie has put on 40 more pounds (on top of her 350#), and you have to tell her "How good you look in that dress, you must have lost 40 pounds!"... that ugly 14th cousin Susan (with the mustache) keeps hitting on you, and your second cousin's husband (who is bisexual), keeps asking you to go golfing... yadda, yadda, yadda...

... get a STEALTH!!!... and go see your grandbaby... life CAN be good!
;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Wishing Kevin of the GWN, would keep his "Steeenkin" cold weather... in the, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 12:22:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.44)

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Hey you guys looking for a scrap over pricey sniper equipment go to

http://www9.web2010.com/benchrest/wwwboard/index.cgi

Then scoll back to Thursday Feb 8th and look and the thread on Chandler rifles.

Kinda reminds me of "home" hee-hee
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 12:23:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.208)

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Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)...
Phooie on what PeteR said... they get our support in everyday life!

But when it comes to matchs... they don't have any "Secrets" we might steal.
They are afraid of the competition... they might get their clocks cleaned by some of the old and/or retired guys, and how would that look back at the ranch??
:))

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 12:30:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.44)

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peterR wrote:

"PS- Were you involved in the Premier project with Bob Holtz?"

Bob was the ammo guru. He did all the heavy lifting on that project.
 

Ref: "Sniper elitism"

Call it what you like Pete, if it quacks like a duck.......
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 14:03:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.178)

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Kevin (Andy's Dad),

RE: Restricted LE/Military Matches.

I didn't address this issue in my post regarding the North American Sniper Champs but I agree with your question of how this affects the health and performance of the LEO and Military teams. In a nutshell here is my philosophy. I sincerely believe this and it is from text I wrote for use in the classroom.

"Because some shooting tasks may take on a serious tone, our state of readiness must remain under close scrutiny. This should be ongoing and the measure of our skills must be tangible. What you were able to do 5 years ago or even last month DOES NOT matter. The only relevant capabilities are the CURRENT ones! There is no room for exaggeration, bravado or cockiness. Those types of attitudes are dangerous and can lead you right off a cliff. Do not confuse this with true confidence in one's self and equipment for such a person is the pinnacle of efficiency and versatility.

So. . . it is good if were are confident, but it is dangerous if we are arrogant for lo . . . beware the day we get full of ourselves, for that is the day and the hour that we will cease to grow . . . and when we cease to grow, we will be left behind and ultimately we will FAIL!

Knowing your limitations gives us the confidence to operate with one less stress factor. When the fickle finger of fate points . . . . . we must welcome ANYTHING that makes our task easier."

Think about it. Most of the equipment and techniques that are in use by L.E. and military today is a direct result of civilian development and sports. Many of the best instructors are civilian competitors and professional shooters. I honestly believe that anytime you limit your attendance, you instantly limit your pool of potential growth resources. If a small group gets together and shoots while excluding others that can put pressure on them or otherwise outshoot them, have they grown or learned any thing new? I think not. Sometimes we learn more from loosing than we do from winning.

So Kevin,
#1) You point is well taken and I agree with you.
#2) This forum if very limited in the space we can write and the context we can build in. You need to chill out, give these guys some maneuvering room and realize that most of the good guys are on the same page. It's not an us versus them thing.
#3) There are a bunch (Snipers Paradise & SDSI) of great "open" tactical matches out there that we attend. Those do not "limit" your attendance, yet have you gone? Don't complain about the ones you can't go to as long as you're not even going to the ones you can.

peteR,
Thanks for the initial block.

Everybody stay safe,
Terry
 
 

Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 14:28:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.72)

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Lito'

Put your spoon away and quit stirring. This ain't grade school anymore.

Why don't you amble down to South Texas for their Sniper Challenge in October with your clock cleaning equipment. My team mate and myself along with several other LE types will be there. We will have our clocks with us.

Peace and love man,
Terry
Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 14:35:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.72)

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Speaking of stirring the pot, here's one: In statistics "Group size" is "Bivariate Range". Ask anyone who has had 1st semester stats and he'll tell you that "Range" is the weakest measure of variability. So this discussion is something like arguing about which type of ski mittens are best worn while performing surgery. In the unlikely event that anyone wants a more meaningful measure measurement, e-mail me. If a couple of you guys want, I'll write an excel program with instructions for calculating "Bivariate Standard Deviation." Some of the guys on this board are engineers and students in serious subjects. They shouldn't be more than an e-mail away from someone with lots of letters after his name who will confirm the above.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 15:00:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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AAARRGGHH CDC, No STASTISICS!!!!!!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 15:29:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.188)

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Scared me so much I couldn't even spell st..aa..tttiiss..AAARRGGHH!! Had flashbacks of a 5' old hag standing at a chalkboard talking monotone jiberish about the 3 m's while I was hungover from downtown Greeville on a Thursday night.

No mas!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 15:36:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.188)

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FLASH:
I attended the 19th Tidwater Police Academy in Norfolk Virginia in 1971 - An FBI Special Agent I will never forget said Narcotics and the money they generate will ultimately corrupt our society, government and law enforcement agencies to the point of failure.

He was not mistaken.

J.D.

J.D. Hicks <jdhicks@microsoft.com>
Seattle, Wa, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 15:53:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.107.3.92)

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Flash,
yes sir, I meant off bags, whatever you wanna throw it down on......
I can shoot 3 shots into undr .2's...about anytime.

Like Bill R said, add 2 more to it, (and a gent said also) and it's amazing how quickly those .2's open up.......(:

Re-read my original post...I said, "Consistently".
If you can shoot .250's, 5 shots,( .308) and do it back to back for any amount of groups you care to shoot...then YOU are damn amazing......

There are way too many variables..eye strain, muscle fatigue, improper weld, etc, etc, etc..........for one to be able to do this at will...........fouling, barrel heating, you name it...physics, and your physiology, will not allow you to do this "Consistently".

I will leave this one here.....I will stick with Mr. Rice on this issue......... If I could shoot that well, all the time..I wouldn't even want to go try anymore..........

CDC; I had a case of the Bivariate once, Doc told me to go home and drink plenty of fluids, and get bed rest...............(:
 

Bill Hardin, I get your drift, I understand where your comin' from, but I won't change my mind.
Been there many times in my youth, and if you wanna be a dummy, and get shotfaced, and do it at/in your home.........and sit and listen to CD"s in your own auto.( then go for it).
I don't think the law or anyone should be able to haul your butt to jail, your on private property, and your not driving.........
What about a mans home / house being his castle??.
If the guy is driving........on a public street, parked, bust his arse...no prob.

In his own yard,property, I think it is a violation of his rights.
Never mind what the law says....I just don't happen to agree.

Also, can't call my mother, she's not around anymore..but thanks for the thought, and the advice.(:

Two Shoes
 
 
 
 

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 16:20:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.41)

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Terry Cross my friend,

BAM - > SLAP...that was the sound of a gauntlet that you threw down on the table. I am eagerly waiting to see who will pick it up, not in a verbal way, but actually show up as you said. It is one thing to talk about those comps that won't let civilians attend, it is another to actually attend the ones that will let you. What does the commercial say? Just do it?!! Seriously now. Good points, and we obviously feel as you do and back you 100%.

for anyone that hasn't seen some of the toys Terry builds, you can see a few of them here http://www.snipersparadise.com/vendors/KMW/KMW.htm

I wrote you an email after your first post but now regret not reading the rest of your posts before I did. It's been too long since we talked, but I know you are just as busy as I am so if you forgive me I'll forgive you.

Thomas

Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 16:23:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.81.112.86)

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Bolt: I hate to be the one to break the bad news but, group-size IS a statistical measurement. A very weak one. Sorry about your bad classroom experience. Mine was very different. Our main statistics professor is an attractive, fit and brilliant young woman who lectures at two hundred miles per hour. Taking and grading nine semesters of graduate stats from her and for her was a challenge and a pleasure.

Terry: Group size is as uniformly useful as a granny knot. It always works, but never works well. If you like it, you stick with it.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 17:02:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Matt: sounds like you have either a worn hammer, trigger, or disconnector, or your new parts are out of timing. The reason your hammer catches on the flange of the firing pin is the built-in design to keep your AR from going into runaway full-auto. Your disconnector isn't holding your hammer until trigger release (forward).

CDC, all I own are the 47D 8-rounders and McCormick 10s.

I figure the best way to figure pure rifle or ammo accuracy potential is to take out the human factor. Military test rifles are put into a test cradle and fired indoors or on a tunnel range for function and group (no outside human or weather/atmospheric influence). Same with ammo (with the exception of competition ammo at Quantico and possibly Benning which is fired outdoors). Statistics are measured by 10-shot "Mean radius" groups which were well-described over a year ago by our ten fingered slide-rule and calculator "Gazinta" guys on this site (three mil dots Gazinta 1000 how many times?)

As for wondering why more active duty military folks don't attend competitions, have you been listening to your military lately? We've gotten so adept at doing so much with so little for so long, you now expect us to do everything with nothing? If you see a rare team, it's because we funded it at the cost of something else. You'll see a few teams once in a while, but not whole squads or platoons. And if the units are truly busy, they're either on alert, tarining/exercise, or deployment.

You want innovation? Set the rules and open up your competition (look at the National Matches and the DCM Excellence-in-Competition Program). Got spanked and embarrassed? Then you'll know to train harder.

"Somewhere out there
someone is training
to beat you."

Be better.

As for this SWAT/Sniper patch some guys put on their DUTY hats and uniforms called 1* ("One ass to risk," i.e. 1 asterisk -- get it?): Are you guys stupid or just hoping to get sued? If you wound or whack an innocent or a hostage on a take-down and the suing lawyer asks "Whose ass is more important officer, yours or the hostage?" you have the risk of sitting on the stand looking stupid because of a cute vanity patch.

THINK!

Sorry for pontificating.
Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 17:03:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

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Dave: 10 shot mean radius would do. It would be a hell of a lot better than arguing about whether or not to toss out shots you would rather not think about. A guy wouldn't have to squander his youth in a classroom to learn to do it.

I have no experience with the other eight rounders you mentioned. Are they more reliable in a variety of weapons than the Wilsons?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 17:14:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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O.K. let's play nice!

I know that all this talk about best group size is basically for bragging rights, macho stuff. It's either, "I'm a better shot than you!" Or, "My rifle shoots better than yours!" But what gets lost a lot of the time is what we can do to make "everyone" as good as they can be. Gee, sounds like a commercial!

Someone will always be a better shot than the rest of us. A certain piece of equipment will usually always perform better than the rest. What we often do is keep a small piece of information from others because we believe that it will give "us" (read I or me) the edge over the "others" (read everyone else "I" will come up against).

Instead of debating the merits of, do you measure the gun or the shooter. I say we get back to what it takes to make contact with the target no matter who the shooter is or what equipment he is using. I know that certain equipment has its limitations, just as every shooter has his limitations. Let's get back to what we can do to make our equipment perform the best it can! Let's get back to what can "we" do to improve our shooting abilitiy! Let's get back to knowing "our" combined limitations.

Time to shift gears a little.

J.D.,

There has always been some form of corruption in almost everything throughout history. It is what "we" choose to do about that corruption that will determine the course of history. Your FBI agent was not correct unless you, and everyone else, turn your back on the corruption. I don't know you well enough to say which way you will go but I believe that as a Country, we will fight against that corruption as we did against that which founded this Country.

This is not meant as a slam, only my Two Cents, and I will get off my soap box.
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 17:17:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.43.38)

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Sinister dave-
I agree with you on that silly patch. In all honesty though, I dislike the "swat expert" turned gunwriter who thought it up and whores himself out. I won';t support him or anything to do with him.
My rant is over.

Just food for thought guys- A lot of the LE competitions are held on LE ranges. Regular "civies" are not allowed on them by lawyer proof regulations. That's the reason for a lot of this so called discrimination. Range rules. Military guys can get waivers or will be covered if sent there on orders.
I am not trying to justify anything - I just wanted to bring out a important factor. And, no, the departments won't change their rules if you ask nice. How many of you can call up the local military base and use their range? Even if you ask nice?
I hope I brought a little perspective into this. It takes a real lot of effort and legal wrangling to allow public use of governement ranges. That's why the NRA can do so and the little guys can't.

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 18:07:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

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Folks,

Well, our projected "blizzard" for the Willamette Valley never materialized. Though it did get to 20 degrees and spit snow in town.
I've jokingly refered to it as the "blizzard of '01"...;-)

On the LE/Civilian training thing: First, I've never been denied access to a course as a military man or as a retired old fart. Seems most don't make the distinction (even though they say they do). Perhaps, it's fact that I am former military, have a degree in LE, and am a trainier that puts me "over the edge".
We should all train together and learn form each other. Most all shooters are "good guys"(tm)/not gender specific)and are willing to share. As I told another member, we are "cohesive".

Case in point was last month when I shot with my four LE compadres. Two didn't have a clue, one wouldn't listen, and the other wanted to learn. End result was three learned and one went away badly frustrated. Was happy to share and hope what they learned will keep them alive, or someone else, should the requirement ever arise...

On the USMC M40A3: Just re-read the article and am mildly pissed. Seems the services never learn. We are going from a roughly 15 lb system to one that is 3 lbs heavier and will have a suppresser, as well. Dandy, NOW the lads must hump a 18-20 lb weapon and all their gear. Additonally, the stock chose is not a "hunting" stock. In case it's been forgotten, Sniping is hunting! Read Norm Chandler's article on "Canoe Paddles" and you'll get the picture.

This move is because for the last decade the snipers have been in a counter-sniper role. Not in the bush "hunting". I disagree with this course, vehemently! I know there's those of you that like this style stock (Undude), but I'm still "hunting". Besides, I don't own a canoe...

Am still penning my "Operator's Ruck" article. Waiting for my new pack to arrive to see if it meets my requirements and potentially, yours.

Keep the exchanges going...this is neat stuff. Let's see, who can we P.O. next?

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 18:20:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.20)

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Bravo, glad to hear that about the 8 versus 7rd mags. They told me the same when I called a few years ago. On the beer I prefer a light to medium not the real heavy stuff and I will pony up some cash when I see you.

Sinister, you have a little problem working with the 10 rd mags in concealed carry? They seem a little long for duty use. You have alot of experience with the 8 rds mags? Mine have shown the 8rd mags to be not for personal protection. Kinda of like the Chip MCCormick version where the follower jams up the weapon after the last round. If you are using in comp in a non carry gun it is different than ten hours plus aday in the weather. I thought the issue gun was a M92. Are you allowed to carry a 1911? This is not an attack just wonder what circumstances you use the 1911 under with 8 and 10 rd mags.

US Optics, I spoke with John Williams today and he has invited me down to tour the plant again. I am going as soon as I can. He is very busy making/rebuilding the USMC Scopes. Says the scopes for civies should be shipping in March April. He has several new things going on for future Military Contracts. I will let you guys know as soon as I can on the new stuff. Very exciting. One litlle tidbit is a new 1moa adjustable version of the Tactical Ten I helped design. That way I will have no reason to use Leupold.LOL

I herd from another source that the New UnertalCo is going together with the new Leatherwood Co to produce scopes overseas. If they are made by the same folks as the Leatherwood I would stay away from them. Talk about killing a decent design. I hope that is not true.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 18:45:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.194)

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Mike: I shot on lots of military posts. As a matter of fact, the staff duty office kept the range flag and key for me every weekend the nasty girls weren't using it. And every now and again the DOD security guys. It literally was a "call up and ask really nice" situation. Seriously.

Bolt and CDC: I played that game (the statistics one), and guess what I learned! I'm not as great as I thought I was. Seems the shooter tends to throw shots due to wind, and just plain screwing up. My 95% confidence level turned out to be closer than I thought. But then I got to thinking about it, and if I *HAD* to take a shot at an ARMED PERSON, especially with the capability of wiping me off the face of the earth should I miss, that shorter range is EXACTLY where I would stalk within. But for match shooting I saw little use in it. YMMV.

Terry Cross: I've got $50 on 'Lito cleaning your clock if he goes. Maybe you'd like to meet out at Storm, where the "cool crowd" is going to be this year. It's not limited to active military nor militarized police only. Take econ 101, you'll learn all about why opening up competitions to "the unwashed and unworthy militia" is the most economically feasable route there is. Of course, it does nothing for ego...... Elitism. BAH! Andy's dad is right.

Patron 'Lito: you've been out of Texas too long. VFW hall, barbequed brisket and beer to excess, dancing with your choice of country western or mariachi bands. Talk of guns? LOTS of it, and some make a show. That was one of my favorite passtimes, gals at weddings are FUN on a stick!

Flash: No, the most expensive crimper that I know of is $18. It's the design of the LEE that I'm against. And the "propaganda" wasn't put out by reloading equipment manufacturers, it was from bullet manufacturers. If you get set-back 'cause you're beating the bullet into the case with multiple chamberings, then a crimp won't realistically help that much anyway. The moral of the story? Don't chamber the same round bunches of times. After all, WHY? Usually my ammo gets chambered once. Then it's nothing more than a casing ;-)

Bill0294: "Concentrate on the important things in life. Call your mother. Tell her you love her." Yeah, just tell yourself "nobody in the US can own property, we're now subject to arrest and prosecution by the united nations for violation of global government laws, we've lost our protection of search and seizure without a warrant, and about a gazillion other things - including military invasion - but the IMPORTANT thing is that we can call our mothers!" Yeah, we're still free. I've got news for you friend, it's more important to me RIGHT NOW to leave a world where my SON is free than to call my Mom. The fact that you fail to recognize that you're espousing the problem is bothersome to me. No property rights. None at all. And if we "screw up", then we have no rights to violate! YEAH! Excuse me while I throw away my copy of the constitution and pull out the communist manefesto. Maybe to keep my boy "competitive", I'll teach him chinese and russian. This kind of thinking makes me nothing short of disgustedly sick. And here's a question for you to codgitate: if the military is prohibited from being used on our soil, what's the effective difference between them and a heavily militarized police? One can come and violate your rights while threatening you with lethal force, the other has to be told that drugs are involved and ORDERED to violate your rights. I'll take the 2nd, it's the least of the evils. Sure hope your Mom is a member of a "batf approved" church, or you might not have one soon either!

RexC: I've relegated the FMJ's to battle rifle and battle carbine practice only. 168 SMK's were my pick, until I tried the 175's, now there's nothing else ;-) They can be made to shoot, but not at range like the SMK's can. If I get 1 MOA out of a Garand or M-14, I'm happy. The best FMJ's that I know of for a Garand are the Lapua 173's, good luck on that one! The 147's are more than 1 MOA bullets, but usually under 2 MOA (2.5 at the outside, but that's for a surplus Garand). I really liked AA2520, but now Varget is the ticket for me!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
when it comes to stomping our liberties, nobody should "play nice", USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 19:05:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.186)

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The 1* patch ("one ass to risk"):

Is this more of the Army Ranger wannabee mentality from the sorry-ass'd civilian LEOs of this sad country?

I mean, didn't "one ass to risk" come from the SEALs? Are these LEOs trying to associate themselves with the SEALs? (Not even close, buds!)

The only ass most police seem to risk these days certainly are not their own! If we have to hear one more time what bad-asses these civilian cops are while they tell John Q. Public in court that they are not responsible to show up if called, much less place their lives at risk to help us if they do, all cops will loose our support!

I am sick and tired of hearing stories in the news of a young child being killed by an accidential discharge from a SWAT team member while executing a no-knock from a pathetically weak or invalid affidavit!

The stupid morons who wear such bullsh*t patches deserve a good lawsuit, and possible criminal prosecution, when they f*** up; and they will, because their mentality says so. And, I sure as Hell don't care to be on the receiving end of their stupidity!

/rantoff

I like good cops. They make great friends, neighbors, and shooting buddies. My sister is a cop. For what she does, she is still under paid.

We gotta stop this "bad ass" mentality before more people get hurt.

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
pissed as Hell, once proud of our cops, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 19:16:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

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Well, looks like Deja-vu all over again.

Here in Ft. Collins they arrested three teenagers (14,14,15) of planning to shoot-up and blow-up the Junior High school, "Columbine style" as the three students put it. They are being charged with conspiracy to commit first degree murder. They were found out when they tried recruiting other students, and threatened others.

Other than being really stupid, they don't look old enough to be out of diapers. What a way to ruin your life, before it even begins.
 
 

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
A front row seat ain't all it's cracked up to be, in Colorado, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 19:16:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.1)

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Bravo- No Sh@#! I am very jealous. There is an awesome military range a bit away from me that we can not use unless we fill out lots of paperwork and file in triplicate and then wait to see if it is approved. Never has been. I have gone up there to shoot with some army and marine units on the QT though. Disguised with one of them fake nose/glasses deals.

On the good cop/bad cop thread that won't die. Guys, we all rant and rave, but do you think the guys that have that mentality actually visit this site or care about the public opinion. Every department, office, military unit, plumber's union, etc has its bad apples. Don't throw out blanket statements. Wes (not to pick on you-I just need an example)- did you ever have a commander who said" If it is not the marine way-it is no good" . Sinister Dave (same thing)- I'll bet you can say the same. CDC- how about elitist mathematicians who won't accept new theories? There just some people you can not reach...and you won't, at least not on this website. I sometimes feel the need to defend my profession, but it really is a matter of context.

Just to show what an elitist LE snob I am, I will let you in on some personal secrets:

1)The people who taught me the most about sling shooting and distance shooting were marines.

2)The guys who taught me the most about position shooting were civilians. I didn't know it meant at the time, but one was a "President's Hundred" shooter. Sometimes you get lucky...

3) The guys who taught me the most about sniper tactics and how to defeat them were Army infantrymen and SF types.

4) The guys who taught me about urban shooting were cops.

Without all these people volunteering their time and effort, I would not be able to be comfortable in the job I have. And while some were paid for classes, each spent time after hours and in communication on how to build my skills. Each group trained me with their skills and experiences.
I thank them all.

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 19:50:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.151)

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Hank- that patch comes from the former LE guy I referred to before. He gets money on each sold. May he burn in hell.
Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 19:52:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.151)

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Mike: no joke. Even Nellis AFB (Las Vegas) lets us go out there and shoot. The only thing is, I don't want to drive the 200 miles there to shoot for just anything. After all, that's a little over 4 hours drive! HA! I think it has something to do with being an open base / post. I had to put in the paperwork request ONCE at WSMR, after that, and the resulting mele, I got it each subsequent Sunday ;-) Seems that some nasty girl officers don't like being outshot by one of the unwashed unworthy militia, and certainly didn't like it when I did it after trading them pistols! After that, the ranges were closed to everyone but active military and DOD security forces on "their" days. Maybe it wasn't elitism that did that. What you and Wes said, that's the truth too. I'll never turn away anyone wanting to ask me anything. If I'm better that day, I'll try to get them up to my level. Mostly it's me asking for help to get up to someone elses level. We can all learn from eachother well, unless one segment is restricted from participation. Here's a trick to try: when you show up next, do it in a chinese uniform. They'll probably put you up in the BEQ, free allotment of ammo, GIVE you a rifle and you'll have all the range time you want.

Patron Mike: Light AND medium. Check ;-) As always, free for the taking (or maybe donation of ice) LOL

Good cops are good cops. We NEED and WANT them. Bad cops are an oddity mostly, unless it's the rampart squad. Mostly the good cops "police" the bad cops, and they don't last too long. Unless it's the rampart squad. The thing that should be of the most worry is when GOOD cops enforce BAD laws. They're doing what they think is right, and they think it's right because of the incredibly bad national propaganda we have for mass media and their politically motivated CO's. Unfortunately, a good cop, pushing a bad law, is by definition a person engaged in tyrany, acting outside the Constitution by violating someones rights. With no jesse jerkoff to talk about how they're being "disenfranchised in this democracy". This is the reason I'd never make a good cop (well, one of them). I couldn't do "as ordered", because I'd have to subjugate "the law" to the US Constitution. So what's the answer? For there to be "selective enforcement" of laws. That's what the founding fathers used as a check-and-ballance. If it's constitutional, prossecute! If it's not, "just don't see" it. This includes prosecuting federal agents for their crimes. Or, as a wise cop says "screw with the people that need screwing with, leave the rest alone".
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, no longer the free, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 20:21:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.208)

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Bravo...... good thought on the discount! I gave an automatic 10% to any of my customers that were NRA, GOA, NRCC/GOTF,along with CSSA and OMGC (our State & local organizations) when I was in business.

Crimping.... the only bullet that I'd consider crimping would have to have a cannelure, and even then I'd have second thoughts! Note that I'm not talking about battlefield ammo here, nor am I reloading for a Mod.94 Win. either. IMHO, the proper use of a neck bushing die will provide a shooter with the correct neck/bullet tension without resorting to making an attempt to crush fit a case neck into a bullet jacket that doesn't even have a provision (cannelure) for that step in the reloading process.

FWIW
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 20:23:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.232)

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Bravo wrote: "I played that game (the statistics one), and guess what I learned! I'm not as great as I thought I was. Seems the shooter tends to throw shots due to wind, and just plain screwing up. My 95% confidence level turned out to be closer than I thought."

Bravo, old buddy; I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying that, in most cases, the shooter is a greater source of variability than is any reasonably good rifle? Well,....yeah... When have you heard me say otherwise? I don't see the relavence.

Mike T: "CDC- how about elitist mathematicians who won't accept new theories?"

What new theory is that? I haven't seen it. That ten-shot mean distance technique would be useful for non-technical types. The proof would be pretty easy. Mathematicians accept only what is proven.

If there are any technical types who want to take this off-line, I'd be happy to share some very powerful techniques. Anyone who is about to decide to blast me: save it.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 20:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Bravo-P,

Never been to SM but the pictures look pretty and I've heard nothing but fun stuff about the place. Now whether going to this place is going to "make me cool" or not is debatable (my buds will testify to my uncoolness). However, the crew at SM does sound like a jolly bunch of chaps that are in heat over rifle shooting so I would probably like them.

If you will look at my previous post about my opinions of "closed" matches, you will see that I am not for them but economics is not the reason. I do understand that a viable business (that is what SM is)does need to draw from as big a pool of potential customers as possible and that's OK too. When they succeed, we all collectively succeed. Maybe see you there.

TC
 

Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 20:55:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.44)

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A try on the accuracy/group issue. Keep in mind that I am no expert, just a guy that likes to shoot and hunt, maybe a little more than your average Joe.

I categorize accuracy into two classes. One is the weapon's inherent accuracy as measured from a rest. If all human factors are eliminated, shouldn't the weapons inherent accuracy be easily documented and be independent of number of rounds fired, allowing for the barrel to cool for each shot? That is a fascinating question to me. After all, when figuring in the human factor, the more shots fired (especially big bore, hi-intensity precision work), the less accurate you are due to fatigue. But eliminating the human element, number of shots shouldn't matter that much, should it?
That said, I consider the second class, practical accuracy, more important. The system consists of the weapon AND the shooter. It is the capability of the weapon/shooter system in the field that counts when it "counts". Don't confuse your weapon's inherent accuracy with the whole system's accuracy (equipment plus shooter).
When I am shooting/talking accuracy, I always have assumed that the human factor is part of the equation with everyone, but perhaps not. The last group I shot with my Savage was 1MOA with junky 150 grn. ammo. Does that mean my Savage is a 1MOA rifle? I don't think so. My rifle, ammo, and I are a 1MOA combination though.

Ammo crimping: Where I work (a railroad) we have a rule, it is rule 1.1.1. The rule says:
"In cases of doubt or uncertainty, always take the safe course."
I would say that this would fall into that category. After all, Mr. Murphy loves people that take chances with equipment.
My SHTF ammo gets rotated in/out of magazines, etc. And when banging around in the field, how careful are you with your equipment? Are you going to be that careful when SHTF? I take care of my equipment, but I USE it HARD. Are you Murphy proof? I know for a fact that Murphy LOVES me. I think when I start loading I will try carrying around both crimped and uncrimped ammo, and see if the uncrimped will hold up. But I always tend to err on the safe side. My luck would go something like this:
Uncrimped ammo works fine, even when banging around the countryside on my hands and knees, climbing tree stands, fording ditches etc., so I decide to not crimp.
SHTF, and all my ammo gets the bullets shoved down into the cases when I fall/get knocked on my can leaving me with one mag of ammo.
No kidding. I am chuckling as I type this but it's a fact! :>)

Question awaiting wisdom:

My Savage 110FP has a stock that not only flexes too much, but the grip angle is only comfortable for me if I hold the gun at my waist! The distance between the trigger and back of the grip is way to far and the angle too steep for me. Who makes a good and affordable pistol grip style stock for it that will not compromise my utilization from various shooting positions in the field? Is the Choate "ultimate sniper" stock as bad as I have heard? What I heard is "wannabe gear that makes it harder to shoot and not easier/more efficient".

It's cold (15* F) and sunny. Nice shooting weather!
Anyone else shooting in the snow/cold?

My opinion for the week. Play nice, and as always be careful/thanks you LEO's.
Peace Out
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 21:00:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.71)

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CDC- You are taking what I said out of context. I never said anything about shot groups or whatnot. I was stating bad apples and people who don't want to listen exist in every field. I then asked three people who have previousy stated their different fields if they have experienced people that I made reference to. Never said anything about shot hole sizes nor did I give examples.

But, for clarity, I will venture that some of Einstein's theories were not accepted when he put them forth. Nor, probably, some of Stephen Hawkins theories. Perhaps you assumed I was referring to the recent group size thread. I was not, did not mean to confuse that issue.

I leave certain things to those who know them best. Just ask my wife!
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 21:09:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.173)

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Does anyone have any information, good or bad on a CETME RIFLE, HK contract rifle. I'm interested in finding out about what type of accuracy to expect. Any comments would be appreciated.
JIM <camason@pathway.net>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 21:31:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.50.165)

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CDC: sorry, my poor wording. Let me try this again. I've done the analysis to see where the "shooter-rifle-changing environmental" stuff puts me, and at first I thought it was hooey. Until I got to thinking about how far I'd really try a shot at someone capable of instant massive retaliation. Then I gained lots of respect for the statistical stuff really quick. Looking at my 99.99% confidence level (miss 1 shot in 100), I'm not nearly as good of a shot as I thought it would turn up. If I remember though, my 3 sigma was about 2 MOA as a radius. That's when I decided to only play to 600 yards. Anything else becomes too chancey too quick for this little black duck. I'll leave it to the other person in the spotters team ;-) That's also why I run the 95% CL.

Geoff M: I think if you try to work some bullets into some well prepped cases, you'll be surprised at how much force it takes. I would wager that I could lift my body weight on a single casing and not push the bullet in. Dunno if Patrons Mike or 'Lito could say that though LOL!! Seriously, there's no way I'm gonna mess up a round by not crimping it, I don't and won't again. My ammo mostly rides in mags anyway. If I need more than that, it's either in spare mags or bandos. Barring a catastrophic failure (falling off a 100 foot cliff or such), the ammo will take it if the brass is prepped right. Now here's another thought. The cases prepped with the Gracey trimmer come out within 0.002". That's danged good. Everyone knows that crimping is done indexed on the overall case length. So now you've got a case that's crimped within 0.002" tighter than others. This 0.002" of case mouth shoved into the bullet more than it's neighbor does nothing good for accuracy (uniform bullet pull), not to mention deformation of the bullet jacket. I'm not telling you NOT to do it, but I think your reasons for doing it aren't very realistic, and I know you're not doing anything for your accuracy.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, looking for a few good men, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 21:59:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.122)

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Mike, the Wilson 47Ds were issued. I chose to duplicate my work stuff (I probably have 20 47Ds and they've worked in 4 personal M1911A1s, two different brands). We don't carry the McCormick 10-round Shooting Stars in the weapon concealed.

I have had the option of carrying (US Government issue) M1911A1s, Glocks, SIGs, Highpowers, and M92s for both full-time concealed and door-kicker use.

During combat ops prep I was once stopped by a young Marine who asked, "Sir, you're pistol's cocked." "Why, yes it is." Young Gen-X type looks and says "That's not a Beretta, is it, sir?" "Nope, it's a .45." "Why do you carry that, sir?"

"Because if I have to shoot someone with it I want him to die."

M92s are the issue pistol of the US Army, except for aviators and investigators who carry the M11 (SIG 228). This does NOT apply to all units of the United States Special Operations Command.

Mictac, I believe any range built using Congressionally-appropriated Title 10 (military) funds may be used by a requesting civilian organization (i.e., based on my limited experience, the Washington, North Carolina, or Virginia State Shooting Association Rifle Teams on a not-to-interfere basis if no other training or operational security requirement prohibits their use such as on a secure base) for competition and competition training. Meaning, you take the range control exam, get certified, and sign out the range. At least, that's how it works at Fort Lewis, Bragg, Quantico, Camp Bullis, Fort Meade, Camp Atterbury, Camp Perry, etc.).

And (Mike T), you're right, I come from the school of thought "If it's stupid, but works, it ain't stupid." I'll steal a good idea or piece of equipment from anyone if I think it works. I'm no cop, never have been, may never be. But I've been to Texas State's SWAT School, the DEA Advance Narcotics Raid Tactics Course, and am a US Secret Service Firearms Instructor. I've helped protect Ronald Reagan. Besides the powers as an officer of the US Army under the UCMJ, I do not have the powers of arrest over civilians, and don't want 'em -- not my job.

I like a lot of cops. But I can't say I like all soldiers either. Our system is pretty good -- you screw up bad enough, and we have "The United States Disciplinary Barracks" at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where you can live awhile. We seem to police our own OK.

Who taught me to shoot? The NRA Junior program, the USAMU, the Navy, and the Virginia Rifle Team.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 22:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

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I recently visited my local gun dealer who had just gotten in a new Savage 112 VSS. I may be able to get past the Choate stock, but what really killed my interest in the weapon was the HUGE knob on the end of the bolt handle (you know the one they use on the scout). What I'm wondering is, and maybe you Savage enthusiasts can help me, does Savage also use this same bolt handle in the new 10 FP's? If so what could possibly be their purpose in doing so?
thanks, Robert
Robert <rdftdf@inetone.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 22:38:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.0.99.137)

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Sinister Dave-
Que "range control exam"!
This information has not been passed down to us. In reading your comments and Bravo's about being allowed on mil ranges I see that my area may have been getting the proverbial shaft.
It was explained to us that only military personnel assigned on duty and those authorized groups with agreements can use their ranges. This authorization had to do with liability waivers, agreements and what not. Legal mumbo-jumbo. Which we would do, but were told that it would have to be a DCM or NRA type organization.
I think I have been...misinformed...perhaps intentionally. I did hear from the people that I went there with that the range is kept as its own kingdom. Unless, of course, reserve bases are a different story.
So....what does this exam consist of (general) if you can tell me?
Can a mentally chalenged individual such as myself pass it? With cheat notes?
Even more important- is there a regulation I can point to get authorized use of a mil range?

Thnaks in advance-Mike T

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 22:56:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

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Bravo: >>"Looking at my 99.99% confidence level (miss 1 shot in 100),

1/10,000

>> I'm not nearly as good of a shot as I thought it would turn up.

Few people are. Shooters remember their best groups and call the shots they put in the weeds "flyers." Flyers contain information. They count.

>>If I remember though, my 3 sigma was about 2 MOA as a radius.

3 sigma would be the radius within which you put 99.7% of your shots.

>>That's when I decided to only play to 600 yards. That's also why I run the 95% CL.

That's 2 sigma and is entirely reasonable.

Mike L: Please excuse my misunderstanding what you wrote.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 23:06:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Dave Liwanag, only met you once but hearing you carry a 1911 because you can, makes me believe I could work for you. I have had such bad luck with 8 rd mags in 1911's that I wont even try them anymore. I tried 8 rd Wilsons, first, second and third generations, with terrible results. Most of the guys at the department who use 1911's have also tried them and the same bad stuff happened. Mostly the rounds would nose dive and not feed. Did you have to have the ramp changed for the different feed angles of the Wilson 8 rd mags? That is what I have been told is the big problem. I use 7rd mags because they work all the time. dirty, clean or whatever. I tried the McCormick mags but they made the Wilso 8 rds look great. Guns would end up with the mag follower sticking out and jaming up in the weapon. Had to force the mags out. I give up the one rd with a seven rd for that piece of mind.

Bravo, I picked up my new loaded Springfield 1911 today. I will shoot it on Monday and let you know. Al I have are 7rd mags though.LOL
mikemiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 23:15:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

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Mike T., not surprised you're getting the runaround. The rules apply to both active and reserve component (reserve and National Guard) bases. Normally your state rifle and pistol association, through the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, wields the power on your side. You should check with them, and they provide the high muckety-muck pull straight to the base operations (G-3 or Directorate of Plans, Training, and Mobilization), or to the State Adjutant General's Office (for Guard/Reserve bases). You can get help at the DCM, NBPRP, and NRA. Base Morale, Welfare, and Recreation or Shooting Clubs can also help (Quantico has a GREAT system -- call them at 703-640-6936 and they can tell you how they run their 300 yard recreational fire range, pistol, high-power rifle [to 1,000 yards], and international shotgun programs, along with the IPSC Shooters, every weekend).

Once everything is cleared and hunky-dorey (can be easy, can be hard) you go to range control and take the Range Safety Officer or Range Safety NCO class to go over the rule books (how to open and close the range, make radio commo checks, where not to point guns, phone numbers and radio freqs for the ambulance and fire trucks in case of grass fires, etc.). On range day, depending on the base, you go to range control and they give you a key to the lock or gate, a range book (with copies of the base range regs), the red range flag (or the keys to the flag box), and a radio if they have one or you request it. Usually you provide your own paper and cardboard targets and silhouettes.

Then you shoot.

Like anything else the military does, once you're done you clean everything up, close the range, and turn in everything. A range inspector or the next unit will inspect the range and see if you've screwed anything up (and they will bill you or keep you from ever signing out the range again). It's not as hard as it sounds, once you've got a system going and both sides work out their differences. Some bases (Fort Belvoir, Virginia) require one of their own people to be the range safety officer. So much the better -- one less thing for you to have to do.

It ain't rocket science. At Quantico you can practice highpower rifle every weekend from March through October, unless there's a match. Sundays is team practice and 1,000 yard shooting, alongside the 1,000 yard benchresters and blackpowder cartridge guys.

Good luck.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 23:28:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

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peteR...... thanks for the heads-up on the Exbal ballistics program.

http://snipercountry.com/Exbal.html

You were absolutely right - it sure is TITS! and Gerald Perrys' delivery time is at least Mach1. I just got it - and already love it!

Geoff M.... I know what you're trying to say. I'm on intimate terms with Mr. Murphy, but over 35yrs. of big game hunting (25 in the Rockies after Elk, & a few Bighorns) and never using a crimped round I can't attribute it all to luck alone! If you noticed in my post about crimping I specifically excluded battle ammo. WTSHTF there are thousands of rounds of mil. 7.62 & 5.56 in my stash. I figure with that and plenty of 12ga. & .22RF that I've hoarded I'll be OK w/ammo.
That is - if it ever does HTF!

Springfield Armory M25....... anybody out there seen Springfield's anouncement of their new 'Carlos Hathcock White Feather M25"?

Http://www.springfield-armory.com/whatsnew.shtml

Please tell me - did the Gunny ever use an M25? Had he ever even seen one? PLEASE don't get me wrong.... if the Hathcock family is benefitting from the use of the Gunnys' name..... more power to them! Lord knows they deserve all the help that they can get, after the treatment he got from Uncle S***head. The Gunny probably wouldn't have liked what I just said, but he wasn't ever anyone to complain!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 23:32:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.68.24)

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Re. L.E./Military exclusion of civilians....without it both cease to exist. I would that the two, (L.E.& military), excluded each other as they did in the past. I like most military and L.E. types I have taken the time to get to know...... Maybe 3 people......If I wanted to join a "click",I would. I am content to enjoy the freedom of shooting what,when,where,and how I choose,within the realm of personal responsibility. I don't see how any "limited participation event" can beat that. This forum is enough for me........
Windinmane <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 23:37:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.77)

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Mike: I didn't have to take an exam, but then again, I was 1 using the range for "personal usage" 2 not using their pop-ups unless someone was there to OK it. When we could get people out there to do fun stuff, it was WELL worth the time. The ONLY time I was tempted to "do wrong" was when I had to walk out there and spook off some deer at the 30 yard line. Now THAT'S temptation!

CDC: uh, yeah, that's what I meant ;-) I said I wasn't good with this stuff!

Patron Mike: Please do! I'm wondering about having the frame releived under the trigger guard as well. You know, might as well have all the frame work done at the same time. Does the loaded Springfield have the Ed Brown grip safety? Heck, at this rate, it'd be CHEAPER for me to get one of those than have this one worked over. Except I've got this one already, AND I think it'll work. I'm REALLY hesitant to leave any 45 auto that works, seeing as I've never had one LOL. Tried to check it out, but Springfield has nothing on them on their website.

Enjoy this last beer-bring guys, next year will be kegs. I hate washing / sanitizing / prepping bottles.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, looking for freedom, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 23:38:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.185)

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Once again does anyone know if the new Savage 10FP's have the big ass knob on the end of the bolt handle like the new 112 VSS. You know the one I'm talking about like the use on the scout.
Robert <rdftdf@inetone.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, February 10, 2001 at 23:48:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.210.248.135)

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Undude, I've used the 47Ds in both off the rack M1911A1s and in tuned pistols. Got two types, never had any problems with GI Ball and 230 Hydra-shoks unless I'd dropped the mags on their lips (and they cracked at the back of the mag body, but then magazines don't last forever). Found I have two types of followers: one with a ball bearing towards the rear of the follower (which locks the rim of the bottom round to the rear of the follower) and some with just the groove on the top (new ones?).

When I shoot at home if it's not ball it's 200 LSWC (H&G 68 pattern) or 225 truncated cone match.

Sorry, no experience with the 7 and 8-round Shooting Stars.
 

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 00:12:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

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I just visited Savages web page, and I noticed that the 10FP is listed under the "police" directory. Can a civilian like myself purchase this weapon or do you have to be law enforcement?
Robert <rdftdf@inetone.net>
VA, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 04:07:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.65.190.134)

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good morning children; Isn't this a lovely day in the neighborhood?
I see some of you have been playing not nice today while Mr. Rogers has been playing at the gun show! Let's all get together and call our moms.
" That sounds more like a 2 MOA shooter to me. For sure I'd suspect shooter, scope or ammo problems before I'd figure it was the rifle. "

Perhaps the above is true but I can't seem to help but notice that most all of the time all the flyers seem to occur on certain guns and not others. I find those who don't have flyers are more likely to remain in my gun safe.... anyone else notice that?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 04:44:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

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Looking to replace a data book that was lost in a house fire with my Robar SR-90.
New SR-90 on the way, but having difficulty finding a data book that seems right. Any suggestions?
Rock
Rock <Rock33277@policeone.com>
USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 04:44:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.154.28)

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8 round Shooting Stars served me well without any mishaps for 4 years of IPSC competitions. They are all I use anymore.

Chance <pointman4@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 04:52:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.165.164.98)

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Mike Miller:

In reference to your last comment on Unertls... Unertl's website now has a link to the Leatherwood site. And, from the FAQ on the Leatherwood site:

*
1. How can this be a quality scope for under $300.00?
Ans.
The vast majority of all scopes being sold in the U.S. are being made in China in total or in part. Working closely with the same company that is building scopes for three of the best known U.S. brands, we have taken a basic design and engineered it to our quality standards. Furthermore, by refining and improving the designs used in the ArtII and the MPC, we simplified the assembly and production of the scope and improved the performance. New technology also has made possible the very sophisticated etched glass reticle design at an affordable price.
*

SO......

I'm not going to make any assumptions, but I have to admit that it does look like there is a strong possiblity that the new Unertl 10x's are going to be made overseas, at least in part.

L8R,

-L
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 05:04:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.83)

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Is the Leatherwood the same basic rangefinder setup as the Springfield govt tactical?
Chance <pointman4@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 05:08:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.165.164.98)

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I carried a Colt 1991A1 for awhile and finally had to breakdown and buy a Kimber. I have had Wilson 8 rounders for several years now and have decided I'll never go back to anything else. They have worked outstanding.........I now think, I have total package with my Kimber, Wilsons and HydraShoks! Can't imagine having to carry anything else.

Pakrat

Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 05:18:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

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On scopes made in China. Not Leupold. Not US Optics. Not Nightforce. Not Schmidt and Bender. Not original Leatherwoods. Yes Simmons Yes the Cheap BxL and all of the crummy stuff. Not the good stuff so you guys make up your own mind. I stay away from all China made optics.

Lets see someone buys Leatherwood name and then has the scopes made in China. Basically burns up the good name. Now rumors about where Unertal will be made and an obvious connection between the new Unertal and the new Leatherwood. You do the math and see what adds together. Anyone think China makes the best scopes in the world?

Now I know someone sent the new Unertal Co an email and asked them to shut a few of us non believers up. I say show me a production sample and I will give it a fair review. If it is the same as the original I will tell all. US Optics is letting me review one of their scopes. I offered on the phone to do the same to Unertal but they did not have one at the time, two months ago. I am still waiting for a call back. Hey if they are the best I will say so, but if they are going to do the Leatherwood thing forget it.

Let me tell you guys a few years ago a friend had a complaint about how Leupold treated him and I mentioned it on here. A few days later I was contacted by Leupold and they did all they could to make it right. My hat went off to Leupold and I told all of you so. Lets see if we get the same from the new Unertal Co.

I would love to be able to say that the new company is following the steps of the original. That would make me feel great. The original was a company loved by us all.

US Optics is not a bad guy in this. They were contacted by the USMC. They stole nothing just made a contract with the government because no Unertal Co existed at that time.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 06:10:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

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Choate Ultimate Whatever:

Went to a gun show in Charlotte, NC today, which featured the following items of possible interest to this community:

* Romanian pseudo-Dragunovs for $800 (tempting...how do these shoot?)

* A real-deal Russian SVD @ $2,000 (at that price, I dont *care* how they shoot)

* After a long hiatus, the return of Iron Brigade Armory, complete with an assortment of IBA books, Black Hills ammo, Eagle Industries nylon, all run by Norm's pleasant and particularly attractive youngest daughter. :)

* Winchester Stealths @ under $600

* Multiple Armalite AR-50s at around $3000 with a nice assortment of accessories

* Multiple vendors of high-quality cleaning equipment and supplies (Dewey, Stoney Point, Butch's Bore Shine, Kroil, all that)

* Ammo, ammo, and more ammo. So much quality ball in any caliber you can name at good prices, it'd make your wallet cry "uncle!" :)

* Got my first good look at both the Choate Ultimate Sniper and Ultimate Varmint stocks, First, I prefer the configuration of the Ultimate Varmint stock, hands down. The conventional, flat forend is a better idea. Second, casual screwing around with it inclines me that it would be fairly comfortable, particulary with some modifications to the thumbhole area for more palm clearance (my hands are fairly large). Third, build quality struck me as rather good and the weight, while not light, did not seem too excessive, and I suspect that a little mill work can lighten things up considerably. Mind you, I have come to consider all claims of a stock being a "drop-in" to be bulls@#t and I figure it would have to be bedded, but then I assume same on the HS Precision or McMillan product as well, so no biggie. It strikes me as a robust, cost-effecive and practical solution to the problem of stocking tactical guns without going broke in the process. I may put one on the Win M70 that I plan on building up soon.

Big-Ass Bolt Knob on Savage Tacticals...if Remington were only so progressive:

Big Ass bolt handle is so you can GRAB the thing under all climatic conditions at speed and with gloves on. This is a GOOD thing, and more guns that are intended for serious use should have them.

Flyers and Groups:

I see single-sitting group shooting as primarily an exercise in testing the metalugical stability of your barrel and its sensitivity to heat. For instance, I know that I can push my PSS about 15 rounds of rapid fire before the groups go all to hell. This is a very useful thing to know for a highpower shooter but only modereatly so for a sniper, as I suspect that a 15 round string on a snipers part would probably only arise in scenarios with a low survival rate. I would think that if you wanted to shoot the kinds of groups mot pertinate to this community, you would have one target on which you shoot your cold bore shot at the begining of a session, a 5-round group being completed over the course of five sessions, for instance.

As for flyers, the question becomes one of "just what are you trying to evaluate?". If you are evaluating the gun, called flyers are disregarded and groups are of interest. If you are evaluating the shooter, group size is of reduced importance and analyzing why you are tossing shots out of the group is the primary interest. With uncalled flyers, you have to make a decision as to wether its the gun or the shooter and procede from there.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 06:32:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

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On flyers: I was told to include EVERY shot and truly randomly. The first shot placement at various times also. As in, I move to 500, then the first shot. Then the first shot at 800, etc. CCB shots, hot shots, etc. My lousy wind calls and flyers included. Why? Because if you enter all the LOUSY shots, you get your true "I know I can do it!" range. Omission of called flyers just cheats the numbers. What came out of it is interesting. The moral of the story is that if I stick with these statistics, I'm pretty much guarenteed that I can't miss out to 400 or 500 (depending on the target size you want to call a "hit"). DUH. But that includes flyers, bad wind calls, BDC error and everything else. I know it sounds bad, and I know I can do headshots at 600 with ease most days. But that's the statistics, taking "most days" and throwing in bad wind calls and such. Not that I use it, but now I know, given an enemy with a missile launcher in his hands, I'd better be at 400 or closer to try that one! Besides, who can say they've never flubbed a 500 yard shot? I just look at it as "interesting information", and a benchmark for me to measure myself against yearly to see if (how much) I'm improving. I'd be willing to bet Master Rick will say that the majority of REAL shots in the field isn't at great range for just this reason also. But I could be all wet too.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, searching for freedom, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 06:54:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.212)

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Al,
Glad you like the ExBal program and give it a similar rating! As I said before, Gerald LISTENED and modified his program to fit OUR needs. Its too bad some of the other tactical/firearms community companies don't follow suit.
Imagine 'Lito in charge of QC at Remington????????????? In a "BIG Green" TEAM colored spandex outfit. Ugh strike that........ ;-)
 
 

"Sinister"
I concur on the Wilsons, they have worked for me since they first came out. I load the 8 rounders to 7 capacity just cuz i cain't count past six under stress on one hand.
 
 

Unertals in China?????????? Master Rick PLEASE pass the brown bagged Mallox - A Most Heinous Thought!
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 11:43:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.197)

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Shooting Star mags: I never got one to work. Go figger.

Tossing out flyers: Gotta be objective. If I can cherry-pick my data, I can prove anything I want. You can't just 'wish away' observations you don't like.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 13:27:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

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Hi Guy's,

I've thought about buying one of those 36X benchrest scopes for a long time. Just for load development purposes mainly, but have balked at the price tag. Well, seems there's a price war going on out in Arizona on the Weaver T-36 target scopes. JL has them for $328.50 delivered, J&G has them for the same price plus shipping,, and Bruno's has them now for $309.95 shipping and credit card fee extra. List is way over $700, Sinclair has them for well over $500, so these prices are pretty great.
I ordered one from JL and am waiting it's arrival. I'll put it in a set of Badgers with ring reducers and use it for working up loads, I'll let you know if it's as good as a lot of the BR boy's have told me.
Just thought I'd pass this along, since I don't think the prices will last forever.

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 14:01:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.41.35.113)

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Bravo and Flyers:

I suppose we can look at it this way: my caracterzation of the process is more one of eliminating the variables and focusing on the gun *or* the shooter, while yours is more one of looking at the integrated system and its combined effectivness. Perhaps my approach is where we should start, and yours is where we should end up. This would be appropriate, as I at a less advanced state than many here in terms of non-sling supported, real-world shooting and perhaps more advanced than some when looking at it from a hardware persepctive. I have now (finaly) eliminated the gun-related variables, now I will work on the me-related varaibles and start examining the shooter/rifle system as a whole.

Fair enough? :)

Chinese Unertls:

I am convinced that the Chinese can build damn-near anything they want to most any build quality they need or you will pay for. If the Chinese feel the need to build a Unertl better than the old man himself built, they will develop or procure the technology required to do so. They have built satelite launch vehicles, jet aircraft and the motherboard of the computer this message is being typed on. They can build a rifle scope of excellent quality, if they care to. My observation has been that the Chinese scopes on the market presently are of more than adequate quality for the bottom-feeder market they are currently serving. If they can do this without even trying too hard, they have potential. Certainly more so than the Koreans ever exibited with their product for Tasco.
 

-Tom

TOm Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, February 11, 2001 at 14:48:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

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Hogs-
1) Speaking of that large bolt knob- someone was making them as a replacement for the Remington. Anyone remember who? I feel purchases coming on.

2) Scope observation/question- I have noticed that I tend to readjust the focus on my LR scopes a lot more than I did with the Mark 4 scope.
Given that the lenses are equivalent, is this due to the different focus mechanism or because the LR doesn't have a sun shade like my M4?
Lito? Undude?

3) The Remingtons with the 20,000 in 2 million safety problem have been referred to as having the "Walker" system. Is this the old style in which the safety locked the bolt closed? In that one you had to push the safety off before you could open the bolt. Not referring to improper gunwenching here.

PS- Dave- going to be contacting my state NRA for info on t