January 07, 1999 to January 12, 1999

We know cold air (that is not 'thin wind') is denser. What effect does this have on ballistics? Sea level performance in the summer is one thing, what about the depths of winter?

From the scope test, we know springs and lubes behave slower in the cold. What effect does this have on rifles? Are there any rifles that won't work in the cold - semi autos, high spec' rifles?

We know fingers and muscles dislike the cold. What is the effect on the shooter?

Finally, condensation from breathing will fog eyepieces (know this from experience). What can be done to avoid this?

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
minus 36 degrees with a slight breeze, Canada - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:08:05 (EST) 

A most excellence post dude!

But,

I believe the bretheren is interested in first round accuracy w/o fouling shots. If you discount the first round fired, you're only fooling yourself. What is most often called a Cold Barrel Shot and it can't be "Bogus" in the real world.

What was the deviation from the intended point of impact for Remington vs. Savage?

Maybe a repeat test without cleaning the barrel between strings, or fouling shots could provide more most excellent enlightenment to all of us.

Shoot what you got, and shoot it (precisely) lots.

Paul H, Moly Coated DRAG BAG! DUUUDEEEE! Where can I get One!
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
tHAwING-oUT cItY, bY-gAWd USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:37:16 (EST) 

A few winters ago we had it as bad as you now, with temps in -20°C. I had my breath, or just the condensation of my body forming ice flowers on the lens during a hunting trip.

My quick fix was one of my long socks into which I slipped one of those small heat bags for warm toes. I tied the sock in an O and used it as a lens cover with the warm toaster bag in the rear.
Presto, warm objective, and no more condensation.
This year, if it ever gets cold, I try just taping the bag to the outside of the objective, may warm the lens that way?

Try it and tell me about it, but dont heat up the lens to quick or it may fracture.

"ENDE"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 09:40:16 (EST) 

1. Use RainX anti-fog on the eyepiece and Regular RainX on the objective.
2. Avoid a wide brimmed hat and thick ghillie veil. Just the heat from your head can fog up the eyepiece.
3. Breath out your nose as much as possible. It directs the hot moist air from your lungs away from the scope.
4. Try to avoid moving the weapon from warm indoors to cold outdoors a lot. In the Marines we used to try to use a cold room to store weapons in cold weather to keep condensation down. When living in an arctic tent with a yukon stove or such, keep weapons behind the frost liner if the tent has one.

Weapons operation in the cold. Its more of a lubrication thing than anything else. For semi-auto's use 3-in-one oil, with bolt guns white lithium grease has worked for me. Moly lube?

We are in the short strokes on the data book.

Later

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Thursday,ain.uary 07, 1999 at 10:00:15 (EST) 

Well off to shoot my Rifle and see if I should be using Varget instead of the 4064 I have been using for years. Varget is alot eaiser to measure for sure.

I'm back to using non Molly in my sniper rifle. First round from a clean bbl is to erratic for me. I have heard about leaving a fouling shot but that just rubs the grain the wrong way to leave a rifle dirty.

To who asked about Marine Tex and who said it was expensive. It is a great bedding compound and cost $6.00 for 1/2 pint in Calif. That seems cheap to me. You can do alot of rifles with 1/2 pint. A quart is $13.00 and that will go bad before it is used. Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 11:33:52 (EST) 

I am asking that any of you out there who may be interested in one of these prints please phone Wayne Stallings at the Imagine Art Studio in Smithville, VA (1-800-303-9003) and express your desire that Lee Teter reconsider his position and press forward with this artwork.

I believe the final view of what is correct in the painting should be determined by the artist, Carlos, and his son Carlos III. For those of us that respect and honor this man, the opportunity to purchase a quality print of him as he would choose to be remembered should not be compromised by anyones "commitee" of critics.

Hopefully most of you will agree and we can get Lee to complete the work for printing.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 13:10:23 (EST) 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/guns/overview/

J.D.
J.D. Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 17:20:08 (EST) 

There may be hope for the American people yet (at least those with internet access). The question was, "Should gun manufacturers be held liable .....etc."

When I voted, the vote results came up as follows:

Total Votes: 14736
Yes votes: 1197 (8%)
No Votes: 12950 (88%)
Sometimes: 598 (4%)

Cast your vote!
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:07:46 (EST) 

Ken :)

NoVaShooter <Ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:32:28 (EST) 

CG
Curious George
emerald, WA USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 18:34:51 (EST) 

There's a article here at Sniper Country just for you.
Click onto (ARTICLES AND COMMENTARY)
Then click on (COMMENTARY)
Now click on (SO YOU WANT TO BE A SNIPER)

It's not going to taste too good, but it's what you're looking for.
And for God's sake, stay in school!!!
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Oh, so cold here, in IL. USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 22:10:29 (EST) 

i GOT KINDA CONFUSED wITH tHE DOUBLE POST, AIN'T NONE OF US GENIUSES, JUST HUNTERS N' SHOOTERS SHARING COLLECTIVE WISDOM AND EXPERIENCES GATHERED IN THE FIELD, DUDE!

un-DUDE: Once you get "Varget'ed", I doubt you'll go back, EVER!
Sweatshops, HA! Gooch has got to have plenty of free time on his hands, and everybody knows West Virginians are good at manual labor! That banjo plucking toughens the fingers FAST.

Barry, Go!-Baby!-Go! Now you're tracking that Cold Barrel Shot!
 

Jeff A,
Bubba get you? You been cooped up with Babs again? Got any of the Hornady 178's yet? ANSWER ME!!!

Pat(MrBullet) ibid Hornady 178's? pLEASE?

X-ring: Attempting "conversion" in AM when I can clearly read instruction manual! :-o

Chao for Now, Dudes

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-GAwD USA - Thursday, January 07, 1999 at 22:14:20 (EST) 

After cruising thru some of the other sites SC has links to, I see that drag bags aren't cheap !!! Why not use a military drop bag and save yourself some $$$$$$ ?? I think Brigade Quartermaster has them for about $40 and then you can modify to suit your needs. I suppose if your dragbag has to perform double duty and be a shooting mat also then you might have a problem but ...over at Ft Benning they have some at "Ranger Rags" (surplus store) and they run $15-25. Made of canvas, heavy canvas, and has a felt inner padding. Just a thought, may not be as "cute - high speed" as some of those bags but it darn sure works !!
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Awake in, AL USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 04:14:26 (EST) 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 06:36:33 (EST) 

You foreign guys out there just don't understand the current America.
It's not what we "DO" that counts, it's what we "SAY" about what we do that counts...
It didn't count that we messed up in Somalia... we felt their (the Somalians) PAIN! (but somehow, not the pain of our own military).
And when we bomb an aspirin factory... it's important to understand that our leader "Feels their pain"... as he gives the workers an "Excedren Headache!"
And as the bombs fall on the Muslems, kneeling in prayer, our fearless leader, "Feels their pain", and must show respect.

"It's not personal, it's just business.", just like his love life.

Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 07:11:33 (EST) 

Bill R,
Good Post and well said you didn't beat up on him but he should have gotten the idea.

Torsten & Paul
You two should work as a team for the "Policically correct". Torsten could do the releases and Paul you could explain them!! That way all of us misguided and misunderstood "Red Neck Gun Owners" could be accepted by the "Policically correct public".

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 07:55:32 (EST) 

peteR: I don't have any production models ready yet but you can make your own at home. Get an Army duffel bag (the cotton one, not the new nylon type) and about 5 pounds of molybdenum disulfide (pharmaceutical grade). Put the duffel bag in your clothes dryer, dump in the moly and turn it on. The permanent press cycle works best since it has a "cool-down" period like the Brady Bill. Man, I'm gonna be rich! Hope this doesn't double post.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 08:07:12 (EST) 

If a sniper tries to shoot the weapon out of a hostage takers hand, there are several possible outcomes:

1) The gun is hit, and the hostage taker is overwhelmed by SWAT-people and nobody gets hurt big time. Not very likely.

2) The gun is hit, but due to the impact the gun fires and the hostage or a third party is hurt big time. Possible.

3) The rifle bullet hits the hand of the criminal, passes through bone and flehs and carries on at around 2300 fps and may hit somebody else. Also the criminal can still shoot wth the other hand. Very possible.

4) The sniper misses the hand ans criminal totally, but the passing bullet and sonic boom of it causes unvoluntary reflection in the criminal, his gun goes bang and the situation ends in full shoot out. This outcome most probably has happened many times.

I think that the threat to hostages and third parties are too big, when a sniper tries to shoot the gun out of a criminals hand. Therefore this method should never be an official tactic. A sniper may choose to use it, but only if he really knows how to do it. In the end he must live with the consuquences. Last but not least, if somebody is so big threat that he can be shot legally, then the sniper should try to maximize his stopping power and aim to more effective body parts than a weapon or hand.

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 08:35:34 (EST) 

If a sniper tries to shoot the weapon out of a hostage takers hand, there are several possible outcomes:

1) The gun is hit, and the hostage taker is overwhelmed by SWAT-people and nobody gets hurt big time. Not very likely.

2) The gun is hit, but due to the impact the gun fires and the hostage or a third party is hurt big time. Possible.

3) The rifle bullet hits the hand of the criminal, passes through bone and flehs and carries on at around 2300 fps and may hit somebody else. Also the criminal can still shoot wth the other hand. Very possible.

4) The sniper misses the hand ans criminal totally, but the passing bullet and sonic boom of it causes unvoluntary reflection in the criminal, his gun goes bang and the situation ends in full shoot out. This outcome most probably has happened many times.

I think that the threat to hostages and third parties are too big, when a sniper tries to shoot the gun out of a criminals hand. Therefore this method should never be an official tactic. A sniper may choose to use it, but only if he really knows how to do it. In the end he must live with the consuquences. Last but not least, if somebody is so big threat that he can be shot legally, then the sniper should try to maximize his stopping power and aim to more effective body parts than a weapon or hand.

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 08:35:47 (EST) 

Several days past, I mentioned the use of 175 Sierra MK's in my machine rest. Sorry that I didn't back up the good results of those bullets with a load. Since the loads were not mine, I can take no credit for the superb accuracy.

As stated, the barrel was a 1 in 13" .298 - .3065 Krieger. The chamber was Obermeyer. The OAL in each case 2.80" to conform with Palma rules. The first ten shots were from 1992 Palma cases, Federal 210M primers and 45 grains VV N-140 (non-moly). The second ten were in Rem. BR brass, Rem. 71/2 BR primers and, again, 45 grains of VV N-140 (non-moly). Both groups were little knots (1 1/4") at 500 yards. The first ten shots were not chronographed but the the second ten produced deviations well under 10. This last load was used by a friend at Cedar Springs, Ont. on labor day and a 900M comparison was made with the Sierra 155 Palma. The 155 Palma bullet, with a comparable load, used about two minutes less elevation at that distance. For those interested in Varget, the classic load for the 155 seems to be 45.3 grains. The VV N-140 load at about 46 grains.

I note considerable interest here with the Hornady bullets. While
I've only tested 168 and 180 light mag factory loads, it was superb
in the above mentioned barrel. In a Hart barreled 1 in 10" twist
M-700, this ammunition did not produce good results. Whether this
was due to twist or internal dimensions of the barrel, I haven't a clue.

Just some pre-breakfast Friday morning musing.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SE, IL USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 09:24:41 (EST) 

All are great products. But as you pointed out, they are not cheap. On the other hand they do have unique features that would be hard to duplicate from scratch, the least being the quality of the stitching. By the time you were done, you might find the money invested was equal to the price of one of these bags! That being said, you can make a drag bag with a little effort. It ain't all that tough. Home built units usually lack external and internal pockets for storage of gear, but they do serve their primary role well, that of transporting the sniper rifle across rough terrain. What you get with a quality commercial drag bag purchased from a reputable company is a well constructed piece of gear that will last a lifetime. It will have a lot of well thought out features that allow you (especially police snipers) to store everything you need for a call out or short duration mission in one well organized sack. These bags are far superior to a padded canvas sock or a modified gun case. They ain't cheap...but in consolation, you do get what you pay for.

Commercial bags give you two basic choices. A simply and sturdy bag to transport the weapon, OR an elaborate back pack that will allow you to transport the weapon in addition to all the ancillary gear - food, scope, tripod, ammo, binos, water, ad nausea. You have to decide what you need before the final purchase. Humping a ruck and a drag bag is perfectly acceptable, but sometimes having a bag that can carry it all while leaving your hands free to carry a carbine or navigate mountainous terrain is pretty nice too. For police, having it all in one organized bag sure beats the heck out of taking the weapon in a hard case and having all the other gear in a separate carry all. One thing that does not work: using a basic drag bag as a carry all. There is no simple way to attach all the gear you would like to bring along to a bag with out extra compartments. You just can not have it both ways. Stuffing the gear in the main compartment with the rifle is also problematic as it can shift and beat the rifle up pretty good. For example, sticking your spotting scope in with the rifle is asking for trouble. Tying it outside just gets it lost. You NEED that external cargo pocket.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 10:01:00 (EST) 

a most excellent post, please let us know when you get some Hornadys (and time) to play with them! Your input would be a most valuable asset to us shooting pilgrims.

Paul H.
It Worked, It Really worked! Drag bag is now moly coated, so are uniforms, WIFEY'S UNDIES, my underwear, socks, kids clothes, We're now a genuine High Speeeeed/Loooooow Drag kinda family! THANKS DUDE!

Sarge, snowed in? Was ist los?
 

Time to trade the Banjo for a snow shovel 6"plus on ground n still going.

Torsten, You Da'Spin Doktorr. I have no doubts, Billy Bob can use you!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SNOW CITY, bY-gAwD USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 11:47:39 (EST) 

Any information that you could give me on this rifle would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your time in this manner,

Walt Hucks
Walt Hucks <awhucks@hotmail.com>
Winston-Salem, NC USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 12:24:59 (EST) 

How would you recommend bedding this one gun (in hopes of getting it t shoot with a reasonable torque setting)?

Thanks for any info.
JPinTX
JPinTX <pruett@inu.net>
Lufkin, TX USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 14:23:07 (EST) 

No guys I'm NOT snowed in, haven't even SEEN snow so far! In fact was 71 yesterday and 60 today LOVE this weather! Now if the D**M wind would quit! OK on to other things!
The CNN poll is very enlightening everyone that reads the Duty Roster needs to go "vote"!
JR - I couldn't figure out from your post if you use to work for H-S or still do? Anyway I got off the phone with them about 20 minutes ago with some bad news. They don't make stocks of any kind for Savage rifles! That stinks!
Now for some REALLY ROTTEN news - have been going all over town today looking in my 3 different gunshops (have a real big choice don't I!!) looking for someone to give me a good price on a 700VS. All the stores called different suppliers (one place called 3) and all got the same answer - REMINGTON has DISCONTINUED THE 700VS!!! Now that REALLY STINKS!! Anyone else heard this???
Gee anybody out there with some GOOD news!

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 16:04:47 (EST) 

Several years ago in Columbus, Ohio there was a shot fired to disable a firearm. If memory serves me, the guy was sitting on the Statehouse or courthouse lawn in a folding chair. The handgun (looked like a snub) was held in front of him dangling between his legs. At the shot (from about 75 yds), the handgun scattered into many pieces and stung the man's hand. In an interview afterwards, either the sniper, or another sniper said that they routinely shoot .308 casings at 100 yds.

The next time that I was at the 100 yard range, I placed three 308 cases on a 100 yd. target frame. I was in the process of perfecting loads in a 6mm Rem 40-X in a Zelenak aluminum stock. Three shots later……. I was able to recover two of the cases neatly perforated. Still have them. It was a bum custom barrel which never shot better than ¾" groups, so it was just a lucky 3-shot group.

Put a Leupold 24X (first generation) in my deep freezer for about 6 hours the other day. The temp was -20° F. ( -28° C). There was quite a bit of stiction (sp?) on the first attempt to move both elevation and windage knobs, and each jumped about a moa or so. However, once broken free, both knobs responded with tactile and audible clicks that were not very different from those in normal temperatures.
Ron N.
 

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 16:57:23 (EST) 

Sorry I've been so quiet lately. I'm going through a divorce while trying to get moved up to Storm Mountain and my motivation level has been zilch point shit. Add to it that my ex is marrying another person in this field (supposedly a "friend") and its been a real bear. Onward and upward!

I have held off commenting on the shooting guns out of perps hands. Hexa had some very good points. I have found the energy up to partake in this.

First and most obvious question is why would a LE sniper want to shoot a gun out of someones hand? I suppose we could argue back and forth about flacid paralysis not being a sure thing. But you can say the same thing for the fact that the gun might still go off or the sniper might miss (ala hexa's remarks). Bottom line is you still have a maggot hostage taker that will now sue your ass, eat up some correctional facilities budget and probably get out and pull this type of shit again. You have a victim who has to live with the fact that the hostage taker is still out there somewhere maybe seeking revenge or continuing the episode at a later date.

I can group very good on a stationary target, on a firing range when I have control of most everything. But what is the liklihood that I will lose a little group tightener under stress or the gun will move just as I shoot. Pretty good I think.

Men, "In my opinion" don't even entertain this subject if you are a cop. Train for it and leave it in your bag of tricks but don't ever let on to a supervisor that this is an option available to him. Besides, I wonder how many of these incidents were accidental that the sniper involved took credit for as being intentional? Hey it looks good in the press right?

Stick with the high percentage shots. Mark Maguire hit a shit load of homers but how many times did he strike out? Murphy is alive and well. I know. I've met him and his son!

YOu guys that are freezing your scopes...How do they work as ice cubes. That would be cool at a party. Mug of Rum with a M3A sticking out of it. Great conversation starter. Got to watch that eye relief though. You could poke your eye out!

On easing springs with weapons. Always been a habit of mine to drop the hammer when storing a weapon to preserve spring strength. We teach it with Remington based weapons systems. It is also one of the last steps of "inspection arms" in drill and cerimony for this reason. (Had a DI once tell me it was to make sure the weapon wasn't loaded. Jeeeze!)

Whats that? I hear a banjo!! Im a West virginny man!! Yeehaawww.

Guys I love it up there. See, even a old sniper finds a zero every now and then. Ya'll come on up to Storm Mountain ya hear! We'll throw some 'possum on the grill and shoot steel. Got about a 1300 yard shot from the front porch.

See ya,
Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 18:53:49 (EST) 

The Remington is a single stage trigger as it comes from the factory. There are two, 2 stage trigger systems out on the market that fit the 700 actions with little work. The first is the Jewell this is a great unit that simulates the action of a 2 stage trigger. They are around $250.00 and have a safety.

The other unit is the Medisha. This is a true 2 stage trigger but has no provision for a safety. A Winchester M-70 style safety can be fitted to the rifle's bolt at around $200.00. The trigger sells for around $350.00. This is a great trigger but the expensive way to go.

A factory Warranty Service station for Remington can adjust the trigger and not void the warranty. This is the least expensive way to go but it will still be a single stage trigger.

As for the AR-15 there is good news. Compass Lake Engineering has a two stage unit they install for $80.00. I would not trying to install any of the other 2 stage trigger units unless you have a good understanding of the workings of the AR-15.

Good luck.

Bruce Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jacksonville, FL USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 19:37:08 (EST) 

Glad to hear everyone is concerned with my employment, HA! I've been with H-S for a while now, but I am not a stock builder. Have built stocks in the past but now I spend my days as their barrelmaker, just to make sure they can hold their 1/2 moa guarantee up. And they can and do. Anyone headin' down to SHOT in Atlanta make sure to stop by the H-S booth there, got some new toys comin' out, know you'll like 'em.

I told the old man I was on a sniper site, now he's out looking for a computer. He was an Army sniper back in the late '60's early '70's and would like to check up on today's crop. He did ask me to see if anyone out here knew a Ron Beck, he said last time he had talked to him, he was out in the Middle East in a chopper dumpin Arabs off the oil lines and gettin' paid for it so he was pretty sure he wasn't in the states anymore. Craziest SOB he ever met, he says.

Found a little ballistics site, I think I saw someone talking about it here, JBM, like it.

That's all for now, catch ya later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 21:36:12 (EST) 

I wanted to announce to all of you here (especially Savage afficianados) that I am teaming up with Savage to provide a special course this Spring just for Savage shooters.

No, I'm still using the Remington action in my custom-built rifles, but I think you'll all agree that there is no finer out-of-the-box rifle than the Savage Tactical. And topped off with a good scope (Leupold, B&L, or even the Burris), it is a tack driver.

Hope to see you all there. Details will be on our website soon. I'm looking forward to meeting all of you, especially Russ Taylor, a favorite of the folks at Savage.

Drop me a line and I'll tell you more.

Bill

Bill Martin <lodmail@lodtraining.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 21:53:29 (EST) 

Thanks for the HS precision stock info, my PSS is about 2 1\2 years old, perhaps youdid make the stock. From what you say, it does sound like a pain in the rear to install one. I could machine the blocks and adjustment mechinism (I am a welder/machinist) and have one of the guys glass it in (I work at an off shore powerboat manufacturer) but it is probaly not worth it. Just hoping to get away from the "duct tape a rag to it" look.

Does the HS police/M24 stock have a high enough cheek rest for anyone?
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
Southern, California USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 22:15:57 (EST) 

I used A Choate sniper stock this past season in Fullbore "F" Class shooting. This type shooting is done from the ground, off bag and bipod, with scope. Not particularly different from serious work or hunting varmints.

Not much to offer on implanting a removable magazine, but I must say I did like the stock for shooting off the ground with a bipod. Off the bench is a different subject!

The stock that I used was 700 ADL. For a drop-in it was excellent.
Accuracy, as far as I was concerned, was equal to anything that I have. I do recall that I had to make a slight mod. to the accessory hanger in order to fix the particular Harris bipod that I was using and immediately tossed the plastic eared (accessory plate) jamb nut that slipped on the common hex head screw that was issued.

The front end of the sniper stock is not as rigid as I would like for serious work. It seems they left a lot of cooling room in that area at the expense of rigidity. The angle of the butt, from pistol grip to buttplate is roughly on the same plane as the barreled action. This is not good if a quick second shot is necessary, especially off the bench. What I'm saying is that far too much "hunting" is necessary for quick target acquisition. Off hard ground, the threaded elevation pedistal on the bottom of the butt is fine, but in soft ground it would be next to useless. Also, the stock is a bit heavy to use for as a carry rifle.

My stock came with two cheekpieces. One or the other should fill the bill. Also, length of pull and buttplate positing is adjustable to the point that about anyone could fit the stock.

All in all, I was quite pleased for the dollar. If you are considering this stock for varmint hunting, I would offer that Choate has a varmint stock that might be a little more pleasing off the bench. Also, a little more rigid and less angled in the front end. My stock, in the off season, is also used for testing barreled actions. It serves very well for this purpose, and offers a barrel channel large enough for anything I see.

I like it!

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
FROZEN - SE, IL USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 00:17:46 (EST) 

Mostly what I want to say (make that scream!!) is...."ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR F--KING MIND???" For reasons that have already been stated chances for an major "F--k Up" are just too great.

Now that I have that out of my system I can think of a few times when a stunt like this might (that's MIGHT) be worth the risk. Recently I have seen several situations when police were confronted with a mentally disturbed or emotionally distraught individual who was a threat to others only in that they had a weapon that in there confused state might discharge and harm someone. I don't think I care if they happen to shoot themselves but as a law enforcement officer I worry about anyone else within range of their weapon. Some of these individules think thay want to commit suiside but want someone else (a cop) to do it for them. I'm not in this buisness to kill people (even if I am prepared to) and all the backlash (personal, profesional and legal) from an action like that could be overwelming.

So...If, under the circumstances described above, a shot could be taken that would have an almost perfect chance of success, where there was no chance of harm to anyone else (IE: where is the shot going after it strikes the gun?) and there is no other reasonable or likely safe solution then I would consider taking that shot....BUT....I still wouldn't like it!

Stay Safe!
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Finelly Thawing Out in, Snow Crusted West Virginia USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 11:26:16 (EST) 

Just today got the screw up fixed on the home pc. Software was corrupt, Defragged: then compresssed, and then we did stuff to the pc. Har de har har.. Anyway, I was having a bad case of acute "Roster Jones" and was about to start having seizures when the problem got fixed. I got some Hornady 178 and 168gr for the 308, but haven't tested any yet. What's really good is that my order of Berger bullets came this past Wed. ,you know, the one I placed last Sept.

Work has jipped me out of some valuable shooting time. Well, shit happens . When I do tests with the 178, I'll blabber about it. Matter of fact, I've a bunch of testing for 308 I want to do.

Bubba ran of with Barbara and they both joined the Peace corp. May they both rott in Rawanda. Anyway, I just unlimbered back-up Barbara so I'll be okay.

Pat:

Well, N140 justs doesn't quite cut it in 260 with 140gr. Accuracy is good, but not as good as Varget and N160. Plus I think I started seeing some pressure signs at 39.0 gr. Looked like some primer flattening and some cratering. Hey, if got wome data ,please let me know.

Steve (nato): You nailed me...that was just too funny. Good one.

"I can hear the crincle-crackle of carbon buildup
and the hiss of corrosion from the guns in my safe and I have to get up
and clean them before I can go back to sleep. I clean guns that haven't
been shot in months just because I know they haven't been cleaned
either."
 

Jeff A.
I'll be back.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 11:30:22 (EST) 

On shooting the gun out of the hand. Bad, bad idea. Lawyers begin to salivate. Sets a real bad precedence. About the only case this would make sense is a case of attempted "suicide by cop." If the perp is not threatening anyone but himself, I suppose this could be considered, but the reality is that it only takes a wave of his weapon to be threatening someone else. Real fine line there. No happy answer! Everyone loses. I'd agree that the best advice is to never bring it up as an option!

Split personalities? Easy, aim for the Left brain! ;-)
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 14:12:49 (EST) 

Now, were did I put those sun glasses?
scott <xring...>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 14:21:37 (EST) 

Contact Depity Dave for further info and pricing. Buy this thing. Between him, STMC, Wal-Mart and Sheetz Gas stations, they represent the total gross "national" product of West Virginny!
Scott <me again.>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 14:25:54 (EST) 

Reference your comment, "there is no finer out-of-the-box-rifle than the Savage Tactical".

You've got to be kidding me!

First of all, the trigger is crap. It falls out of adjustment after less than 100 rounds, unless you use ample amounts of 5 minute epoxy on the screws. That usually gives you another 200-400 rounds between trigger adjustments. Thats efficient.

The stock forearm is about as rigid as a piece of Saran Wrap. When you do pull it out of the box, you've got to pull it out of the stock and route the barrel channel out so the barrel doesnt make contact. Even after you clear the barrel channel out, you have to fill the forearm with some type of stiffening compound such as bisonite or devcon to get some forearm rigidity.

And if its such a "fine" rifle, why dont you build your company rifles based on Savage actions?

gunplumr <gunplumr@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 18:30:29 (EST) 

Hang on here hos'. The Savage may not be the "finest out-of-the-box" tactical rifle Billy says but its no reason to get hostile! And IMHO, I own 4 Savages everything from a .22LR LV, a 110FP in .308 to a 112FV in .22-250 and a 110FM in .308, they are as good OUT OF THE BOX STOCK no work of any kind, as any other manufacturer out there. Yes the trigger needs work - but I've never had ANY of the triggers "fall out of adjustment" on any of my Savages after I don't know how many rounds! And as far as the stock forearm being "rigid as a piece of Saran Wrap" I don't know again I have 4 and NONE of them has any problem with the forearm touching the barrel! In fact all four of these guns shoot better than I can - and I shoot pretty well! I've also had Remingtons, Rugers and Winchesters that I didn't find all that accurate either. In fact had one Remington .30-06 with a wood stock that had to be bedded before I could get it to hold one (1") groups at 100yds. None of my Savages are bedded!
Well here we go Savage bashing again!

Sarge retires!
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 18:56:34 (EST) 

Sarge

Sarge <yea...yea>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 19:02:44 (EST) 

If any of you snot nosed kids want to test me, we can have a shoot off where you shoot your chandlers, lous and what ever else and I will shoot my stone stock Savage .243. Any takers?
Chuck Taylor <ct@asi.org>
Ristour, Texas USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 19:14:10 (EST) 

I get home from work, and all hells broken loose on the duty roster,

Jeff A. surgically removed from the PC without anesthetic, and likeing It! BUBBA AND Bab's in Rwanda, (Marius BE VERY AFRAID!)

Savage owners coming "out of the closet" by the magazineful!

A city of brotherly loves most misbegotten, talking poorly of By-Gawd and the best school on the east coast. Course that why they're yanking IRS from Philly to by-gawd, brotherly love, yeah right

Depity GOES BESERK! news at 11:00

Sarge having a problem procuring a simple old Remington 700 VS while defending the Hide, Missus and Jr. from soda cans. I hear Schumer is trying to pass a law limiting possesion to one six pack a month along with that PA. guncontrol dirthead (uh-X-RING, whats his name?)

Mike M crying in a puddle of blood from hand stitching slings for two weeks straight. :-o

and good old El Alacron throwing in the gauntlet too!

DUUUUUUDDDDDDEEEEESSS! TAKE A CHILL!

things could be worse

I spent my entire day teaching CPR to missionaries going to Haiti!

chao and CHILL!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
NOW-BOYS....., bY-gAwD USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 22:03:30 (EST) 

How long's it been, good buddy? Manila, a bottle of Rum, and some b-girls at the "cabaret", wasn't it? That's about all I can say here, but it was good to get "back in the world" after that tour, man.

I may not agree with you on your choice of "best" trainer, but I do agree with you on the Savage. Shit hot. And if you don't have $3,000 for my rifle, it's the way to go. Even a sub-gun man like you can agree, Chuck.

Bill Martin
President, Line of Departure Training Associates

Bill Martin <lodmail@lodtraining.com>
Houston, USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 00:22:00 (EST) 

I leave you Dudes alone for a couple of days and you start dreaming again.

Slope Doper now that is another great idea. Everyone should get one.

We all should go to Storm and get some real training. Until then go to the range and practice, practice, practice.

It's good to hear from Mr.L.O.D. I have heard great things about your rifle but maybe you could explain to the UnDude how you came up with the design of the stock. I am not being a S..A.. I just have used H.S and McMillians for years and wonder why yours is so bulky. It looks very well made.

Back to slings. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 00:59:46 (EST) 

Can you say post lunar phase episodes, can ya? ;-)

NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, is worse than Washington, D.C. Cuckoo's nest Ha, we eat them for an appetizer before that "Asphalt aged" grilled posssum Gooch was talking about.

Gee Golly Gosh,

Methinks maybe we need a OEM "Sniper rifle shoot out" to end this mines better than yours issue. What say you gentlemanly types out there?

like uh?

US Domestic Mfg only; Remington 700, Win. 70, "R" whatsit called" and SAV'AGES too.

.308 caliber/.223 caliber only.

cold barrel shots measured from POA to outside edge?

five round groups (c.t.c. or ?) 100, 300, 500, 700 yds?

five-reload-five (timed fire)

long range "best group" five rounds

just a thought, build on it dudes!

Chao for now,

gotta howl at the moon some more AAAAA-OOOOOOHHHHHH!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAwD USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 09:03:20 (EST) 

US Domestic Mfg only; Remington 700, Win. 70, "R" whatsit called" and SAV'AGES too.

I would add...

A - Factory BBls, factory stocks, after market triggers. You can
re-bed, or glass bed
No sighters or fowlers. You take it outa' the case, you shoot it.
Rifles bbls must be completly wet cleaned "before" each
group or section is fired.
B - .308 caliber/.223 caliber only.

Sniper Match
1 - 1 shot each on five targets at unknown ranges... 400mtrs to
1000mtrs, scored = sum of inchs POA to shot on 5 targets-low wins.
Range w/Mil-dots... (NO laser rangfinders)

Rifle Accuracy Match
2 - TEN round groups (5, clean it, 5) c.t.c. 300, 600, 1000mtrs?
Groups measured widest shots, scores from POA to outside edge?
3 - Five-reload-five @ 600mtrs. Score/time

You guys down on the mountain readin' this... how 'bout an east coast match to give dem bums out west a reason to come East.
(Shooters must bring their own 'possum, range supplies the charcoal)

Pablito
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:00:20 (EST) 

( Sniper Country Council Webmaster )
Due to the fact that the content and spirit of this post does not fall within the SMALL number of rules contained at the top of this page it has been removed.

The rules referred to are: "... include insults, or are provocative without reason will be removed"

gunplumr <gunplumr@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:03:36 (EST) 

I calle Johnny Plaster after I saw you last letter. He will be comming out of retirement at Gunsite and is going to shoot some competitions this year.

Hope to see you at the SHOTSHOW. It is going to be a good one. We can catch up on some black ops stuff.
Chuck Taylor <ct@asi.org>
Ristour, TX USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:11:12 (EST) 

I don't have a problem with .308 to 700 yards, but everyone knows the poor little .223 won't make it that far.

My old ham radio buddy Bill R. could handle the stats. Sounds like he stays home on Saturday night. Is S.W. Kansas as boring as S.E. IL
on Saturday night, Bill?
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Frozen - SE, IL USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:46:37 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 10:50:22 (EST) 

****************************************************

Female Interviewer: " So, Mr. Jones, what are you going to do with these
children on this adventure holiday?"

Mr. Jones: " We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and
shooting."

Female Interviewer: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"

Mr. Jones: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range."

Female Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous
activity to be teaching children?"

Mr. Jones: "I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range discipline
before they even touch a firearm."

Female Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."

Mr. Jones: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute but you're not one, are
you?"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 12:00:46 (EST) 

Torsten:
That was a great story about the female interviewer, I already told a few people and they loved it. I don't know where you find these stories but I look forward to them. Thanks.

gunplumr: Settle down guy, this is supposed to be fun.

Mike M:
The same thing happened in Chicago yesterday Mike. Two cops, partners, were shot. One was wounded the other died. What the hell is going on out there? I'll bet my life savings that they'll find out the two murderers are out on bail or released early from prison. The politicians will never ask "Why were these guys free to commit more crimes?" but they will call for more gun control.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 13:25:26 (EST) 

Things are still at a slow pace here in all the ice and snow.
Too old, fat, and lazy to go ice fishing or Coyote hunting, so
still cruising and musing.

This may be old hat to some of you, but in scrolling through old posts to this list, I came across an interesting topic....first shots in a clean barrel, with moly-coated bullets.

My first serious attempt to use moly was in 1997. Just prior to heading for the Canadian Nationals, I spent an afternoon playing with bullets dry coated with moly, and bullets that were greased with moly enhanced grease. A very interesting test at 200 yards with chronograph running.

With a clean and dry barrel the velocities climbed slowly for 5-7 shots with dry moly. Reversing the operation to clean bullets after moly didn't indicate any appreciable difference in velocities. With pre-greasing the bore lightly, with moly enhanced grease, the velocities were right there from the git-go.

I confirmed this to my satisfaction this past Labor Day at Cedar Springs, Ont. We were shooting at 900M in individual competition and switched to a team match for the final shoot of the day. I made the switch to moly-coated bullets from shooting clean ones. Elevations were horrible for at least the first five rounds!

Since that first bench test I've kept all my barrels greased and waiting. Not only for that first good shot, but to also preserve
the several CM barrels that require ongoing protection.

I would sure be interested in hearing from others that have done such playing.

The moly-enhanced grease refered to is nothing other than readily available moly-grease that has been mixed with powdered moly to the point that it is quite dry, but still may be applied to a patch.

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
FROZEN - SE, IL USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 13:40:28 (EST) 

Sorry to hear about the shootings out there Mike. Maybe you'll get a chance to shoot the gun out of the bad guys hands! Yeah right. Hold tight and don't anticipate!

Any of you guys into Rock und Roll need to check out the Ted Nugent "Spirit of the Wild" CD. A couple of titles are "I shoot back", "Kiss my Ass", "Fred Bear", etc. Its a real mellow album to listen to while you read the News Paper these days.

Take it easy guys. Relax, breath in annnd ouuuut. There we go. chill out.
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 13:41:44 (EST) 

There is one glaring problem with it -- it has the worst magazine setup I have ever used. I'm not talking about the rather strange release system with a latch on either side, but the way it jams so easy when inserting a magazine. If not slowly inserted level with the well, it will lock into place with the magazine angled down in the front about 5 degrees. A rap on the bottom does not seat it fully, and if I try to chamber a round that way the point jams into the front of the well. I feel this is absolutely unsatisfactory for a tactical weapon.

Is there a better magazine system I could switch to, keeping the stock? Or should I just treat it as a BDL that doesn't dump the ammo all over when I unload it?

>All of them shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards
sounds like something from rec.guns, not SC

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 13:59:33 (EST) 

Mike M.
Sorry at Oaklands loss, send'em dirtbags our way when you're done with them and we'll treat them reel goood........................

Guys, i meant .308 vs. .308/ .223 vs. .223 not apples n oranges crap, THE REAL DEAL, PUT UP OR GET OUTTA HERE, REPLETE WITH ROBINS EGG BLUE PUMPS IF YA GOT'EM!

DUDES KEEP POSTING IDEAS, ITS GETTING BETTER WITH THE GREAT INPUT!

CHAO!

PETEr
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 14:14:48 (EST) 

Not to bust on you Jim. Like it says at the top of the duty roster, look into the "Cold shots and hot tips" and the articles/commentary section before you ask a semi-standard question like this. The guys and I dont mind answering questions but after the 4th or 5th time on the same question I tend to blow them off. Sorry, but when we type up a 5 paragraph answer to a question it gets old trying to find it in the word processor or retype it. Thats why Marius and Scott and others are busting their butts to come up with these archive sites. Im sure the site managers have other things to do like change diapers.

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 15:02:47 (EST) 

Thanks
Ken Miller <http://www.kmiller2872@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 17:47:40 (EST) 

John Unertl Optical Co.
308 Clay Ave.
Mars, PA 16046-0818

1-412-625-3810

After a large fire, and off the market for a while, they have a full line of scopes, but they won't sell you the military 10x.
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 18:40:28 (EST) 

Gooch, E-mail me with your new address and an EMail that works. I have a new sling for you. I wont to ship several on Monday.

To all thanks for the support. Guy that got it was on the Street for 11 weeks only had kids. All you Military Guys know how this feels but we keep getting shot by the people we are supposed to protect. A brief version is these two guys were just recovering a weapon thrown out a vehicle during a pursuit and were apparently ambushed.\

Now if I could be given the chance to MilDot Master the suspects and check for group size the day would be better.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 19:14:56 (EST) 

My intent was to start small, minimize variables by using domestic produced, and then we could go from there......
Nothing meant against foreign and "best quality" rigs, just grassroots funshoots for all to learn skills from the Zen masters of the UKD zone.

Please guys, lets keep this one rolling and maybe we can turn it into something local, then regional, tomorrow ze vorld! I forsee about 50-100 rounds max. to give everyone a challenge,but get a bunch of folks through an event and happy.

Steve(Nato), A most excellent idea, especially after the Fred Fisher shoot-em up at Storm Mountain with the single shot rifle! Bring on the Dinosaurs, they can shoot in the right hands!

Dudes,

Together we can make it happen!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAWD USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 20:01:41 (EST) 

Gentlemen, Gentlemen Have we leave of our senses or is it a full moon out tonite. I don't think so! So we all must be Frickin' crazy.

peteR: AwRight! Moly coated undies. I love it! But does that mean they won't stick to the ceiling after a victory throw in the bedroom. Oh well!! And just think, my frilly undies won't have those unsightly skid marks on them any more. I can probably get another three or four more weeks out of them without changing.

Sarge: You Nasty man. Telling us about the balmy 70 degrees in Roswell, NM Talk about slapping our rosy red cheeks of the boys up north. You should be ashamed - or an alien!!

308. The facfory Remington trigger can be adjusted , but very carefully to a crispy and snappy 3 1/2 pounds. Any lighter you are starting to talk about a trigger such as a Timney, Canjar, or a pricey little number called a Jewell trigger. Follow the instructions to the letter of B. Rogers. The explanation is excellent simply excellent.

Jeff: Bubba of the Smyrna Swamp and Barbara the Nailer. Oh bummer for the people of Rwanda. But it leaves you free to pursue Fluffy the Floozy. Just take her out of the closet, inflate, rub a little Rem Oil in the appropriate location and you are GTG. I'm also waiting for several boxes of 178 grainer Hornady (in your case (Horny - Day) bullets. I will be loading them up and when the weather breaks a little up here I will be down at the range. Alright so I'm a Pansy. But a warm one sitting with my criminally beautiful wife in front of a romantic fire. AaaaHhhhh!

Chuck Taylor: So are you related to Russ Taylor? How do you feel about Rugers in general? I applaude you for being the three different wars - must have been the Civil War, Indian Wars and the Spanish-American War. I was only in one "conflict." - without our "El Presidente."

Sarge (again) Savage bashing: New triggers can be installed on the 110 and 112 Series Savages. That will make you group size get even better. As far as practicality goes, the ugly knob at the end of the barrel is the most logical and stress free way of attaching a barrel to a receiver. I'll still take my Sako action - Douglas barreled - McMillan stocked paper punch.

Lets try to remember folks that we are highly in-telly-gent gents and a have a great deal of ed-ju-ma-ka-shun (Gooch thats West Virginny talk for smarts). Like my poor ol' grandma used to say (God rest her soul) Opinions are like asshole - everybody has one. Lets try and respect each others assholes.

Gooch: How about a good e-mail address so I can relay some things about the OGCA show in March. Lot of good news bout that - if you are still interested with Rod.

Talk to me fellas

al

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Taking a Chill Pill here in the Sunny Chill of Northern , O-Hi-Er USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 21:06:40 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 22:46:04 (EST) 

Gooch
gooch <ryan@stormmountain.com>
USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 22:53:38 (EST) 

I know that the M24 is not OEM but our monthly range days are next week and if the format is set by then, my boys and I would like to play.
One limitation: Max range for us is 735m.
Ammo would be M852.

This sounds like a hoot. I think we would get thumped, but some of us need a lesson in what real shooting is, NOT just knocking over a E-type on a pop up mechanisim.
 
 
 

Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Grevious, Salivating Korea - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 02:21:28 (EST) 

Gooch: I feel your pain buddy, my 1st wife left me for my shooting buddy as well. The divorce cost me most of my guns, I think that hurt worse in the long run than her leaving.
 

Deputy Dave: My heart goes out to guys,and I'm afraid it's going to get a whole lot worse as we get closer to Y2K.

A bad day shooting beats a good day working!

John
JohnS <jrscar@codenet.net>
BroncoMania, Colorado USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 03:36:05 (EST) 

My shooting is terrible at the moment:-) I tried a real biathlon-track for the first time this weekend. Skis, Anschutz .22 straightpull, etc. The track was 7.5km with 5 shots prone at 2.5km and 5 shots standing at 5km. I got 2 out of 5 prone and 2 out of 5 standing... Runningtime is classified + 6 minutes penalty. Junior shooters, girls and boys, used me as a pylonmarker out on the track. Very sobering.

Torsten: You've got to try this...( don't bet with anyone!)
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 04:18:00 (EST) 

John Unertl Optical Co.
308 Clay Ave.
Mars, PA 16046-0818

1-412-625-3810
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 05:31:56 (EST) 

Both my fiance and myself are trained snipers and I just want to thank you for a very informative page and keep up the professional work !!!!
 
 

Kobus Du Toit <kobus@ats.sani.org>
Pretoria, Gauteng South Africa - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 06:39:10 (EST) 

I know what you mean, I have not tried it on ski´s, but I have signed up for our Reserve State Championship team and trained with them.
Summerbiathalon is the killer, no downhill coasting.
We shoot with a G-3 with a Platic training bolt to fire 7,62 Platic Training Ammo at 25 Meters, at a Bullseye Target.

I just scrubbed my being Instructor in a April Sniper Class, if I want to go to SMTC in the Summer I will have to hold back on my Reserve days.

Russ Taylor, if you still check in here E mail me, I lost your home mail adress !

Now who is all going to be in Atlanta for the SHOT SHOW ?
 
 

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 07:49:34 (EST) 

neat posting on biathalon shooting, while sipping my morning expresso latte' and scrolling the newspaper I darn near choked on my biscotti.

see http://www.adn.com/
page 1 USMC troops doing Biathalon outside of Anchorage, AK.

My high school Alma Matter town, sigh, brought back memories of setting spring snares and Malaysian death traps (sans spikes)for the high school X-country ski team. Now it wasn't done for malice they weren't elitist or anything like that, we just wanted to give them "an edge" when they competed.

sNnot Tellin 
gee-gosh So of us are just civilians DUDE! Not all readers are military or law enforcement officers. I agree with the serious business, if you have to drop a hammer/striker/firing pin/Piezo electric ignitor switch on a hostile target.

REALITY CHECK, What percentage of the civilian population will do this terrible, terrible act? (Thats your local prosecutor-plaintiff lawyer after you've made the shot, had the internal investigation, the pre-requisite civil rights violation lawsuit and once again sit in court)

How about it members of the military and L-E community? anybody been there done it?

Most of us calm-tranquil-good natured folks just want to learn as much as we can and improve our shooting skills.

as is fast becoming the catch phrase in by-gawd, Chill Dude!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF @AOL.COM>
WARM INSIDE TODAY, bY-gAwD USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 09:32:45 (EST) 

Sarge; It's one thing to shoot a good group and another to hit a soda can at 200 meters! One is bench groupin and the other is good shootin.

Pat;I've got 3 out of the box remingtons that are guaranteed not to shoot 1/2" every time. As I've said in the Archives. If your gun shoots 1" one time and 3" the next you have a 3" gun not a 2" er.
If it shoots under 1" 99 percent of the time it's close to a 1" gun.
That included the first shot out of the cold barrel by the way!

That Skiing business reminds me a combination shoot I had once where any rifle,pistol,mg,or combination thereoff could be used. I'll spare you details of the course but you had to move very quickly for about 150 yards and end the match by double tapping a cardboard stationary sillouete at 75 yards and then hit a time stop plate at 15 yards (both from a barrel lying on it's side on the ground). 20 guys shot with all kinds different guns and when it was over there were 4 holes patched in the sillouete and 1/3 were disqualified because they couldn't hit the 6" stop plate before they ran out of time. You laugh!But...
 
 
 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 10:39:12 (EST) 

Barry

Barry Chance <Barry_Chance@maxtor.com >
Longmont, Co USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 11:10:09 (EST) 

On the age old Savage issue. I'll reiterate some comment's from months ago. The Tactical is a fairly capable rifle, given it's limitations. A new stock is certainly in order. I do not care who says otherwise. That factory stock, while serviceable in the most basic manner, is not up to speed for real tactical environments. NOR was not meant to be! The pillars helped to be sure. But it is by no means hard-use capable. Further, the rifle may shoot well with the stock at the rifle range or on limited field outings - target plinking and prairie doggin'. But the barreled action is capable of better and static bench shooting is not the same as shooting in the field from oddball positions. Most rifles in the right hands can shoot well off the bench. Given true field conditions, with stresses applied to the fore end, goo in the works and ugly condition abounding, bad things can happen. Even to QUALITY after market stocks, which the factory 110FP stock is not. God forbid you used a tight sling hold if that is your particular preference. You will pull the fore end all over the place. A beefier stock can only improve things.

Savage uses the stock it does to provide you with an affordable decently accurate rifle. Where they to install a stiffer higher quality unit, the retail price would be raised accordingly and this would put them in line with some of the higher dollar factory rifles - which would move them out of the market they currently have - a lucrative market they enjoy. Some conjecture: Savage smartly considers their reputation, deserved or otherwise. They see that a $600 dollar 110FP with a top notch stock can not compete with an equally priced brand X due to Perception. They then choose to keep the status quo and sell gobs of rifles with the stock they currently have. Why? Because for the current price, it sells. Ron Coburn is a good businessman. He ain't stupid. I think of the 110FP in these terms: a good barreled action waiting for the right stock. If you buy one, just consider that factory stock a gimme. It came free with the action. Replace it when you can afford to, or shoot it as is if all you do is plink.

I can not speak about the Savage trigger issue as I have not played with it enough, but there will be good after market units soon. For a guy stuck on a limited budget, you can not beat the 110FP, or 10FP. They shoot well and are upgradeable. Would it be my fist choice if I had unlimited funds? No. Not today at my age and income level, but if I were 22 and fresh out of school, looking for an accurate rig to play with, certainly. But until I beg borrow or steal a Savage and live with it in a field environment for weeks, I can not discount it wholesale. If some of you have done so, and I mean REALLY used the thing in the field (be it in training or police work), please comment here on you experiences. I do not care about this range-shot group or that one. I do not care if you think it is the cats me-effing-yow. I want details on real field use, in weather, mud, rain, and crud. Dragging it around. Dinging steel (or gray matter) from 75 to 1000 yards. Ideal range conditions do not apply on Sniper Country. If the 110FP has held up well under those conditions, in completely stock form, we need to hear it. My guess is that it could not due in part to the stock. But I would be happy to be proved wrong! I have no beef with the big S as a company and believe they fill a niche. And more power to Coborn. He has really brought that company around.

To give credit where it is due: I have fired a friends 7mm Magnum with an after market stock that would hold an HONEST .7 moa group in all conditions tested. No BS once in a life time group. I fired smaller groups with this rifle, in the .4 to .5 range, but the group average was .7moa. No bullshit benchrest 200 yard groups. Just honest performance.

I have repeatedly heard other posters on this site say that they have Savages (and other brands!) that will shoot ½ moa or less at 200 yards and beyond. Sure, we have all done that. But every day, day in and day out? In REAL conditions? I seriously question the validity of such a statement. Especially when worded to appear as though every one of this or that persons personal rifles will do this, or that this or that brand will do this. Those kind of statements bother me because when coming from someone who sounds like he knows his stuff, or is known to be an authority, novices will run out and buy something based on that opinion. They in turn are greatly disappointed when reality hits. Worse, they may come to believe that their skill can never be good enough because they can never match this mythical goal. And there is the rub. Wild claims can be made. They can help improve ones standing or reputation. They can certainly sell a product. But the real loser is the reader or prospective buyer who may not know any better. In the end, making claims of this nature is a disservice to the people one intends to help or inform. It can be interpreted as a way of keeping oneself ahead of the pack if you get my drift.

To sum it all up: There ain't no magic bullet. Rifles are only as good as the shooters behind them. Hype is meaningless in the field. Buyer beware. You get what you pay for. Don't believe everything you read. And finally, the meaning of the universe is 42…42 what? I just don't know.

Now play nice. But tell it straight.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 13:28:39 (EST) 

Well said Sir!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The "Balmy" Ozark boonies, MO USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 14:00:18 (EST) 

Unfortunately, due to too many reasons, I do not have the time lately to read the Duty Roster - but it will be chaning in the very near future. As such I do not perform my duties to the fullest of my abilities, for which I have to apologise. I just surgically removed some posts ( partially ) from the Roster, most noticeably that from "gunplumr" dated Janaury 10, after receiving an email advising me of the offensive nature of this specific post.

The Duty Roster IS a place for FUN, and SHARING OF INFORMATION, NOT, and I repeat NOT, for PERSONAL ATTACKS on other people, be they visitors to Sniper Country or not. If you disagree with a poster on some/all of his/her comments, and feel that a personal attack is in order, by all means do so, BUT NOT ON THIS ROSTER, or anywhere on this site. Address a personal email to the party/parties involved, and vent as much as you like, if you really have to do so.

Even better. Write such an email, venting all you want - and then send it to an invalid address with an invalid return address. You will have vented your anger or whatever without incurring the wrath of somebody else, most probably unnessarily in any case, and you will not receive a return.

I hope I will not have to address this issue again.

All the best, and keep them straight on target.

Marius

PS Big Sniper: Kid, I suggest you read the intro to this site, and also your email.
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 15:45:40 (EST) 

I got this Marlin see. Its a 30-30 and I can get 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards. Does anyone make a taper'd scope mount for a 30mm tube for it. I'm think'n bout a Schmidt-Bender for it. Can you pillar bed lever action. Does LOD make a stock for it?

Bob Dweeble
Lil Rock Arkansas

I'm almost out of here fellers!

Gooch
gooch <ryan@stormmountain.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 15:46:48 (EST) 

Marius

===========

Son,

I only saw your post on the Sniper Country Duty Roster just now. I do not live in the United States, but the site does reside there. And, as far as I can understand, the sort of information on this site is not supposed to be for people of your age. If you showed sense I most probably would not even have bothered mailing you, but I am afraid you didn't show such in your post to the Duty Roster.

Watching the movie "Sniper" so often? Not that I believe 9 million times a day, more like once a week maybe. Even then - WHY? Do you know what it is to kill? Not to kill like a normal soldier in war would - firing at the enemy and hoping to kill some, but searching out ONE SPECIFIC TARGET, and WATCHING THAT PERSON DIE?!? I doubt it!! It is not good, not good at all. IT IS UGLY, VERY UGLY, and you have to live with yourself for the rest of your life with that thought, seeing that face. Did he/she have a spouse? Children? Was there some loved one somewhere? Now waiting for him/her never to return?

I suggest you go away from Sniper Country, and only return when you have come to your senses, but only after you've read the following article on the site:
An SC Article

Seriously, you need to get your priorities right, or you're going to cause your parents great grief.

Sincerely

Marius

===============
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 16:09:32 (EST) 

I have some .308 BR brass which has had the primer pockets "uniformed" with the Whitetail tool. Occasionally I'm getting missfires, and even a second strike won't set it off. Dismantling the cartridge shows an unfired primer.

It always seemed to me the tool removes too much material. I usually set firing pin protrusion to about .052 to .055" in the Rem bolt rifles. Is this enough? What are your thoughts on the matter? Do you use the same depth for both small and large primers?

I know that I'm not going to use it anymore if my protrusion depth is in the normal range.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 20:18:52 (EST) 

If the primers are recessed more than about 5 thou, and the primer indents are shallow, the pockets are too deep!
If the primers are flush, and the indents are shallow, the cases have the sholders back too far... too much head space on the cases, not the rifle! Put two or three layers of scotch tape on the case head and close the bolt, you should feel more resitance if the cases are ok for headspace.
Also check the primers... I have about a dozen "fired" missfired primers on a shelf that had no pellets in them.

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 20:51:27 (EST) 

Fred, Old Dino Dudester, they can shoot, I know, I watch Quigley down under 30 times a day......... ;-)

Gooch,
Its Yo! Yo! Go Boy! to Marius, sleep deprivation finally made him crack. I agree Marius, but is it spankings, or the more politically correct "time out"? Go-Go-Go-Boy!

Pat (mrbullet) and Bill R.
Right Said Guys!

Ed Engler, maybe we can cobble something together for ya soon.

Scott, FYI; the Local Sheetz is now selling Partagas cigars at the counter so the By-Gawd economy must be getting better. :-o

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
FUNCITY -HEE-HEE, bY-gAwD USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 21:15:38 (EST) 

Maybe I'm being a little nit-picky, but if you are going to post something and you feel some people may not agree with you - have enough "balls" to write something down other than "i'm not gonna tell you." or some even more inane. Stand up for your convictions whether they are right or wrong. Damn boy, its not like we are going to come over and burn your garage down. I just don't have the time or the inclination.

This post does offer me a great deal of escape from the pressures of every day life. My wife understands this and leaves me alone (most of the time) when I am reading the Duty Roster. Some times she even has some feminine input, rather than just seeing eveything from a man's perspective. Being able to converse on an intelligent level with people who have the same interest as my self - this is a great site.

I'm outta here. Philosophized enuff tonite again!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Sometimes not serious enough in the Grand Dictatorial State of , Ohio USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 21:21:12 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 23:00:27 (EST) 

The chamber is a .308 Obermeyer, GO plus .001". Cases are resized to the minimum amount needed for chambering.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 23:11:28 (EST) 

Listen to the people who are or were snipers, not who acted as one , played make believe on some movie. Sure it seems real and fantastic, but being a sniper is 99.9% mental, and the movies don't show that. They show spectacular shots and kills, and man wouldn't it be cool to do that. But the movies don't show the aftermath, not of the victim or his family, but of the soldier himself. Twenty years after his tour in Vietnam, I was 14 years old, was the first time my father spoke to me of what had happened over there. He slept about 2-3 hours a night if he was lucky, and even then it was like he had never left the war, and that is because the war never leaves you, you never forget. There is NO way to prepare for that experience that no one would wish upon anyone else. The movies will never tell the story that a true sniper can, they will never see it thru their eyes, and never believe that they will.
 

For the rest of ya:

Talked to the old man the other day, just got his deer processed, he says those four legged bastards just aren't sporting enough, he'd rather get himself one of those 10 point non typicals, ten toes up, I think he said we should import some of those dinks, they are much more enjoyable to watch explode in the scope.

Every day's a holiday, folks

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 23:11:51 (EST) 

SORRY IF I OFFENDED ANY DINKS BY USING THE WORD DINK
JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 00:00:56 (EST) 

Can't you tell when you've been had? And by whom? Who's real here and who's not? And what's with the needless and arbitrary editing of posts?

Few "out-of-the-box" guns, short of the Accurary Internation AW series of rifles, are going to be up to the job of military or LE sniping. The Savage Tactical line is a marketing tool to sell you rifles, no different than the 700 PSS, now DM, line. And cheap glass with pot metal rings will fail you when you need them most.

Out here.

P.S. Those who know me, you'll see me in Atlanta, if not sooner. TTFNMFs.
A Voice from the Past <Alas@anon.com>
Not here, Anymore USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 01:12:28 (EST) 

I'm new to this duty roster thingy so bear with me. What's nagging at me is this business about Big Sniper. I have to agree on the age thing. But please, all i ask is that you cut the kid some slack. Everybody's got to have a dream. About the movie: i think you should've busted on the writer/director or whatever of the movie before busting on the Big Sniper. I mean, the kid can't help it that some bozo totally screws up the whole subject of sniping. That's what you guys and his dad are here for. To help him through all that. To set him straight. (When he turns 18 of course). Yeah, i know it's a young age to be considering stuff like that. But kids literally absorb stuff. Now would be the perfect chance to keep him in line about what it's all really about. If he changes his mind, fine. More power to him. If he doesn't, then maybe you guys can help make him a fine fellow marksman.

Other than that, i really admire the communication you guys have here. It's like one big happy family. Kinda makes ya feel a warm and fuzzy inside.

later
Jumoli <jumoli@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 01:48:18 (EST) 

by Paul Ham
Sydney

THEIR muscles may be smaller, their lung power may be
less. But women can be every bit as ruthless as men,
according to the top brass of Australia's armed forces. Last
week they announced plans to let women join combat units.

If senior officers get their way, women will soon be slashing
paths through the jungle and learning to bayonet the enemy.
They will even be considered for entry into the special forces
if they can run two miles in 16 minutes in full combat uniform
while carrying a rifle and a 66lb backpack.

Admiral Chris Barrie, chief of the Australian Defence Force,
put forward his proposals after a review of the role of women
in the military. In response, the government is expected to
overhaul employment laws that bar women from joining
combat units in the army, navy and air force.

Military commanders say they must appeal to women if they
are to arrest a decline in the number of recruits, which has
fallen by 20% in 10 years. While the initiative has been
welcomed by female recruits, the prospect of training women
for hand-to-hand combat has put some men up in arms.

"It's a load of rubbish," said a major in the army's training
division who served in Vietnam. "I have a daughter and I
wouldn't like to see her in the front line.

"The nature of the male beast is that he can drop the shutters
and kill. Can a woman do that?"

The answer is yes, according to Karlene Oliver, 17, a lock
forward in her high school rugby team - "It was great fun
smashing up other girls without getting into trouble" - who
enlisted in the army last week.

"I don't doubt that women can do what men can do," she said
as she headed off for a six-week basic training course in
Wagga Wagga, New South Wales. "I don't think women are
the weaker sex psychologically."

Oliver joined another new recuit, Alexi Dranna, 18, from
Brisbane, Queensland, who aims to enter a combat unit. "If I
pass all the physical tests, why not join the frontline troops?"
she said.

Should she succeed, Dranna will become one of the few
combat-ready women soldiers in the world.

Canada, which allowed women into combat units in 1987, is
believed to be the only western country that recruits them
specifically for the front line. Fewer than 100 have trained as
battle soldiers, serving in peace-keeping roles in Bosnia,
Congo and Rwanda.

In Australia, the most controversial aspect of the military's
plans is the possibility that women will join the Special Air
Service Regiment (SASR), the nation's most elite combat
unit. No other country has entertained the notion of women
serving in crack squads of this calibre.

The SASR, which fought behind enemy lines in Vietnam, is
regarded as one of the world's toughest military outfits,
renowned for the intensity of its training in the deserts of
Western Australia.

If Dranna attempted to join the SASR, she would be
expected, on day one, to run 1 1/2 miles in 9 minutes 30
seconds and to do 60 press-ups and 100 sit-ups.

The rest of the course includes running and walking for up to
60 miles across desert dunes, arduous underwater diving
exercises and a series of free-fall parachute jumps. Recruits
learn how to "engage the enemy" and destroy them using
bullets, bayonets, knives and bare hands.

One woman has already proved she is up to the physical
standard required. Major Robyn Fellowes recently
completed the cadre commando course, an endurance test in
the outback that is said to be as tough as the SASR's.
Fellowes enlisted for the intelligence service but still had to
undergo commando training. "Many men couldn't have done
it," said a senior officer.

Although many in the military establishment have no objection
to women in combat units, some remain hostile, particularly
older soldiers. Michael O'Connor, executive director of the
Australian Defence Association, a military think tank, warned
against the proposal.

"I don't like it one bit, frankly. The liberal elites, the feminists,
are driving this. They're trying to change the role of women,"
said O'Connor, who saw combat as a military policeman in
Papua New Guinea in the 1950s.

"Fighting in wars is not a role for women."

Some military women in Australia have nevertheless shown
themselves undaunted by physical obstacles. Last year
Natalee McDougall, 22, became the country's first female
helicopter pilot.

"I don't think the process of getting women into combat units
is gender-related," said Admiral Barrie. "What we have got to
focus on is: are the individuals capable of doing the job?"
 

......................................................................
 

So now the question : What do you think of women as snipers ? The Russian had them in WW II.
Are there real limitations to a female sniper team ?
I dont think CoEd would work, but belive that a Woman could in some situations actually be the better Sniper.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 03:21:15 (EST) 

So you've been to "Shooting and Winterwarfare Trainingcentre" at Elverum. I've been there several times. It's a cold place...

You were shooting Norwegian produced H&K G3's.

To Torsten:

I think ski-biathlon is more difficult. You are wearing out your arms with the ski-poles on the track. They have no "juice" left for the shootingrange.

BTW. Ski-biathlon is the most entertaining shootingevent. Especially the 4X7,5km relay. You americans should go to Salt Lake City Olympics in 2002 and watch it live.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 07:33:56 (EST) 

jep your right about that, exept the low center of gravity. I showed our club presidents 18 year old daughter the correct offhand position with a Feinwerkbau Air Rifle, you know hip froward, supporting arms elbow on the hip, etc. When I looked down to see if she was placing the elbow correctly I saw that her hips ended about three inches above my bellybutton, and I´m 6´2´´ ! What a set of legs !!! and she was´nt wearing Gooches pumps ether !

TorF

point taken on the long arms thing, exept that we run with the rifles in hand, but thats still not working them in Skiing fashion.

I went to our Winter Warfare training in Mittenwald, I hate Mountains, you know, thin wind and such!

Norway would be nice though, now if I could just get the wife to come along !
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
scrounging G3 parts for the guy´s, in G3ermany - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 09:11:59 (EST) 

Sure why not. Makes the hide a lot cozier. If it gets real cold the sharing of body heat thing would be great. And we'll just time our offensive action to when they go on the rag every month. And all of the rapes and sexual harrasment charges that will be floating around will improve the good order and discipline in the grunt units. Also the lowering of standards which will no doubt happen can make it easier for all men and women to get in elite units so that our armed forces are a reflection of the sheep that we protect.

I trained women recruits in small arms at Parris Island for almost 3 years. Sure they were easier to teach, if you didnt accidently touch one wrong or have one fall in love with her coach. Even had one have an orgasm one time while a coach chewed her ass out on the firing line! They cried when it got cold and wet, they could barely handle the rifle cause of its length, had a hard time grasping an M9 pistol because of its grip size and some couldn't press the double action trigger with one trigger finger. Half of them couldn't see out of a fighting hole and had to have help gettin out of said fighting hole.

Almost every female DI I talked to said that women should not go to combat.

Why do women want this? They dont!! THE POLITICIANS DO!!!! Its all a continuation of the Pat Schroeder agenda now being carried on by Barbera Boxer and Diane Feinstein. Its the old equal rights thing. I dont want men to go to combat much less women. WHy do they treat the duty of going to war and killing and being killed like a civil right comparable to equal pay and pregnancy leave?

War is a terrible thing. No one should have to go. Leave the women out. Sure the Russians had women snipers. THey also had 10 and 12 year old boys too. Thier country was being over ran and everything had to be thrown at the Nazis. If we ever get down to the same point the Russians and Germans got to in WWII or get in a situation like the Isrealis(?) we would have to do the same thing.

In case you didnt know the Canadian Armed Forces are a bigger experimentation ground for social change than even the US military under Clinton. THey are even giving sex change operations to soldiers!! No lie guys.

Why should we want to do as some of these other countries. We are the USA. Last time I checked we were the leaders not the followers.

Gooch
gooch <ryan@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 09:26:17 (EST) 

It is doubtful that the uniforming tool is the culprit. It could be off dimension, but doubtful.

You state that you "set" firing pin protrusion. Are you by any chance playing with a homegrown titanium FP? I know these can be a nightmare.

Regardless of the problem, the .055 setting should get the job done, but I'm probably a poor one to ask. The only ignition problems I've experienced were with fast actions and "issue" ammunition with hard primers.

It was mentioned in another post that the cases might be a bit short.
This could be the problem or it could be that something is slowing the striker. You could also have some bad primers, but this doesn't happen often either.

Have you made any modifications to the Remington bolt? If so, you might try reversing these mods.
 
 

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
THAWING - SE, IL USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 09:41:17 (EST) 

check this out, all sorts of nice pictures !

"Ende"
Torsten <ya know>
- Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 09:43:50 (EST) 

Marius,
I understand where your comming from on posts getting to personal but then we are all "BIG BOYS" and we should be up for a little flak if were cought with our pants down on a particular issue. I agree this is not a place for "Personal" attacks but if the person is wrong then what is wrong with calling them on it?? Someone may profess to be a so called expert and if someone else knows their not then maybe it should be brought to light. Just my opinion and as AL says....
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 12:36:48 (EST) 

Just a dumb hill billy, but have you tried your local Wal-marts? I was standing around while wifey shopped, and asked the clerk at my local WM sporting goods dept. about Remington 700's and she whipped out a 3" thick catalog, said what do you need, and that they could cut a chunk off the list prices too.
So Don't drop to your hands and knees just yet guys, make some local phone calls there has to be some in the pipeline.

Oh-yes they have Shoe-goo, tripods, cheap spray paints in our favorite decorator colors, and canvas, jute, burlap, and camoflage pattern fabrics in the fabric dept. for you ground crawling Picasso's.
You could call it our own little "EVERYTHING store"............
Chao!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 12:44:41 (EST) 

JR. Great post. You are going to be very welcome here.

To all. I was not going to comment on this, but feel compelled to now. I do not agree totally with the unilateral removal of posts on this roster. I tried to make that clear recently in a short note to Marius. But it was after the fact. The posts were removed by then. He did what he did because of the header at the top of this Roster. Right or wrong, it is done. It was done for good reasons from his perspective. I do not totally agree, but I can not fault him for trying to keep the place civil. My view of the rules of engagement is that you avoid foul abusive language while still getting your point across in an intelligent manner. If you can do that, we'll are all grown up here and can take it, or should be able to.
I see it this way: while we need to remain civil on the Roster to avoid having it degenerate into a real cluster F*** of abuse, we also should not feel like we have to pull punches when they are due. If a product sucks, or some one has slung a truck load about something, by all means, I feel it only responsible to allow rebuttles. This does not mean violent hate mail. But if a guy says his rifle can hit a fly's eye at 1000 meters or that he is the greatest shot in the world or that this or that product will give 100% effectiveness every time, well, you just can't let that go! Why? Because some people will surely believe it!

So I'll reiterate. Play nice. BUT tell it like it is.

As far as "A voice from the Past" goes, he is entitled to his opinion. He seems to forget that half the people reading this site are civis or POLICE who do not need, can not justify, or simply can not get their department to pay for a $3000 rifle. But then, his kind of arrogence has caused us grief enough here. So "Voice", do we just ignore a complete line of firearms that LE has to use to satisfy your belief in generally unobtainable rifles?
Go back to your hole boy, if you do not like what ou see here, don't come back. Go play big shot at the show. And while you are there, tell all those cops you meet that their PSS/P DM/VS/110FP/what ever is a piece of crap. I am sure they'll just be so happy to hear it. I am also sure they will love to hear that you are going to foot the bill for their new high dollar rig.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 12:48:19 (EST) 

I remember a time when there was talk about Snipers, SWS´s, Naugas, Shotguns, Savages, and even R....´s on this site and we all seemed to have a ball and still get the point across in a professional manner.

I wonder if that will come back before everyone goes out to look for it elsewere ?
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
- Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 13:32:42 (EST) 

The Remington 700/PSS (hinged floorplate) is still available in .223 with 9" twist...

In .308, only the 700/P-DM is now available.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 14:08:50 (EST) 

Chuck Taylor's website and e-mail addresses are wrong.
 

-
, - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 14:59:54 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 15:06:59 (EST) 

Some of the people who care the most about the "skill to kill" are the ones who get riled the most on here. Im sure "gunplumber" (or whatever)has reasons for what he said. Sure he was pretty blunt about some stuff but...

I had left this site for a while because of the way some people were being treated. I started hanging out again because things had cooled down. Lets not go back that way.

On the other hand how are we supposed to address stuff like bogus instructors in the community, or rip off products? THats what this site is about right? Lets say a certain person is selling a rifle stock as a "drop in" stock when it is not. I come on here and call a spade a spade. Is that an attack? No, its the truth. If a certain person does me or others wrong in this community should I stay quiet about it or let everyone else know so you guys can avoid this person too?

A perfect example is a certain member of the community who purports to have been a "black ops" operative. I have talked to a former employee of this persons and numerous SF/SOCOM fellers who say they never heard of operations involving the guy. He claims to be working for the State dept yet they deny that he works for them. Maybe he is a double-naught spy! Who knows?

Well lets just all relax and put the kevlar back on and prepare to defend our positions. After all we are wearing big boy pants, most of us. I havent seen any one blast anyones personal issues on here, only shooting related material. Lets keep it that way and let shit fly!

Gooch
gooch <ryan@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 15:17:17 (EST) 

Has anyone seen or shot the new Tactical Remington with the 20" barrel?? Who is making the stock on them?? Is it still and H&S?? They look like a neat little rifle, should be the answer for the Law Enforcemant boys.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 15:21:48 (EST) 

Right or wrong, I stand by the removal/edit of the posts, irrespective of what the cadaver has to say. To me it can best be said in the words of someone else, namely the majordomo of a listserver I belong to:

"To be unsubscribed from xxx, send email to xxx, or breach the canons of civility that govern our interchange in this group."

I agree, we will disagree on a lot of things, but we should do so in a civil manner. I think Taylor has a lot of gall, to say the least, to come on here and call himself the best trainer in the country. Take him on, but don't take him down - and that applies to anybody. Let's just enjoy the ride.

Now it is time for bed.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 16:41:26 (EST) 

Semper Lethalis
SPYDER1 <SPYDER1@mailexcite.com>
Augusta, GA USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 16:44:55 (EST) 

I'm in full agreement with your last post. Everyone is an adult here, or should be, and generally it shows. I've been visiting here for the past few months, and while I have little to contribute, what has kept me here has been both the knowledge of the group, and mostly its maturity. If a question is made, usually several well-thought out responses are forthcoming. Not everyone agrees, but each individuals point is generally made intelligently. Truthfully, if people are looking for either personal attacks or lots of bad information, all they have to do is hang-out at rec.guns for a while. You really have to hunt thru the garbage there to find a gem. Not so here, and I'm sure that's why many stay here.

By the way, for those who remember my last post, my wife has decided to put up with the smell of Hoppes as a nice gesture on her part. I owe her, of course :)
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 16:51:24 (EST) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 16:53:17 (EST) 

Fake trainers are abundant and ripping off many folks every where. An example is a former FBI Guy that claims to have been there and done everything. He even teaches Oil Rig Take Downs. His place of instruction is in a nearby valley. Well last year the department sent me to his M16 Instructor class. It took about five minutes to know he was a fake in the sense that he didn't know the weapon period. He is just a teaching whore. That was one long school.

Crappy gear is another thing. I have seen more junk pushed on PD's then you could imagine. Recently they came up with "The Wrap" Long story short if you get six cops you can tie someone up in this thing. No kidding but six of use usually can take care of anyone so whats the point. This thing is bigger than my combined SWAT and Riot Gear bags. All the PD's bought it and no one uses it.

Well you got me started now. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 20:03:39 (EST) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 21:15:14 (EST) 

BTW, I understand that Ruger has an "LE version" varmint rifle. Anyone know anything about it ?? And FWIW...Ala State Troopers have Steyr .308's for the TAC units !!! Maybe it has to do with the importer being here in the state ??
Comments ??
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Sweet Home, Alabama USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 21:41:36 (EST) 

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 22:34:05 (EST) 

Have one of those Rem. Lightweights at the shop right now. 20" barrel, three wide flutes, stock is H-S, like the PSS stock but forend is a bit shorter and narrower, and no palm swells, nice and light, I think around 7-8 pounds. No subsitute for a heavy barreled guns, but if you want a lightweight, quick handeling, easy to hump for miles, it looks pretty good. It is for sale, see www.awesomearms.com for info.
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
So., Ca USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 22:49:24 (EST) 

It is all I have ever used to lube my AR-15 and I have not experienced any problems. As to bore cleaning with it...Don't know, never tried that.

Gooch,

Don't hold back, what do you really think about women in combat?

IMHO, there are some things in life (combat, fire fighting, subdoing thugs, etc) that women should just not be a part of (.) They get in the way trying to do somthing that they can't physically do and they put others at risk when they need help. My wife and I lock horns on this issue on ocasion but over the years she has come to understand that I can't abide guys that are talkers but not doers either!

I don't care which but you need to: Lead, Follow, or Get Out of My Way!

Stay Safe!
 

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Thawing out at last in, Magnificent, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 01:54:27 (EST) 

what do you guy´s use to keep snow, rain, crud, out of your rifle barrel ?

I know, first of all dont let the stuff get in there in the first place, carry the weapon muzzle down in the rain etc. but what do you use to cover it ?

Condom ? Tape ? just any plastic foil ?

and has anyone tested if it changes the cold barrel zero ???

The stuff should be blown away before the bullet gets there, but does it work ?

I use latex anti HIV Gloves, cut off the fingers and .... five muzzledoms !

Of course mine is bigger then yours because I have this here muzzlebrake on it.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 03:12:35 (EST) 

Mike S,
Thanks for the comeback! I seen a picture of one and they look like they would be a nice tool for law enforcement or humping over hill and dale.

Bill R.
I think it depends on the dealer, some wont sell you a PSS without a dept. letter head and the next will sell it to anyone.

James R,
If you go back into the archives you will find pages of discussion on the 06 vs the 08 and I think you will find that the 308 wins hands down for many reasons butd if you have an 06 it will make a fine "Sniper" rifle for you.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 07:37:46 (EST) 

I use Scotch tape, the "brittle(?)" one. I have no change of POI on my sniperrifle. I've had problems with condensation inside the barrel under changeing temperatures. On long patrols(hunts these days) I put a dry patch through the barrel each day and put a new wrap on.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 07:52:43 (EST) 

I "tested" the dorsal "turret" a genuine Heinkel He 111 bomber yesterday. Single MG15, magazenes in rack, installed. My goodness! Not a place to be when Spitfires and Mustangs are shooting at you. Where's the foxhole?
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 08:01:59 (EST) 

Herr Spinne Doktor,

Not to be Marcus Welby or anything, but this dumb hillbilly observes the politicaly correct term here in the US of A is "Personal Protective Equipment" for gloves, and other protective barriers against all kinds a terrible socially spread, debillitating Bloodborne Pathogens, e.g. HIV, Hepatittis A-D, Ebola, Lyme Disease, VD, Herpes, MDR-Tuburculosis, ad nauseum. oh DID GRAMPS SEND YOU ONE OF THE GENUINE SWEDISH MUZZLE ENLARGERS? Hmmmmmmm?

Where is Gramps folks, i kinda miss him?

Man, I wouldn't waste a perfectly good condom on muzzle protection, they can be washed and used again! ;-) I like the targ dot/ paster idea, THATS GREAT! how do they hold up in rain n sleet?

Mike M, once again Most Excellent Post on rip-offs and equipment that is of absolutely no use to ANYONE! Liars be damned and EXPOSED!

Will, Naugas with a .308? Nope make mine at least .375 H&H preferably a .600 NE double! Oops I was thinking of something else Ah-Duh!

Depity,
C'mon now, free-sparring with a Babe can be lotsa fun and lead to many absolutely compromising positions, without that Femi-nazi type attitude. Now Hows that for outlandish folks!

Gooch, Right said as usual!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, bY-GaWd USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 09:30:20 (EST) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 10:02:20 (EST) 

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