Mid , MO, U.S.A. - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 00:02:03 (ZULU)
Done Ken, not just to the troops but in remembering one of our own, and I for several friends and my dad as well.
John L
Mid , MO, U.S.A. - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 00:02:03 (ZULU)
Lito; as always, you "light" up my life! Actually I did remember you had covered that before but if I had tried it would sound like Tim the tool man trying to pass along something from Wilson! Thanks! YO!
Brogers
Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 00:16:11 (ZULU)
Now,, I'll frag-O myself. Change mission is a shot at Midnight. Bushmills will have to do though. Sorry Bruce,, but it's all I can stomach un-mixed. Hope I don't get called out,, but as usual,, it'll be a sober and boring New Years eve for me and the family. But I'm thankful we can spend the time together.
I hope you all have a safe and Happy new year. I'd like to see all of you (even you lurkers if that's possible) back here next year, safe and un-injured.
To all those at the tip of the spear, both here and abroad, Military and Civil, THANK YOU!
Chris...
Chris
Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 00:17:05 (ZULU)
Doughlady is dragging me kicking and screaming to the dance hall tonight. Can't drink cause I'm driving (not that I drink much anyway). Will have to put up with the crowd and dodge the drunks on the way home. So, I'll have to wait until I get home to lift a shooter of Crown to Bruce, but it will be done.
Anti-social, not a people person Bolt, OUT for the year!
Bolt
NC, - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 01:22:30 (ZULU)
again thanks for any input
sea dog
Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 01:31:50 (ZULU)
(edited to add a link by clicking on my name below, for further info)
John L
Mid , MO, U.S.A. - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 02:00:12 (ZULU)
You bunz be safe tonight - we can't spare any more of us.
Happy new years.
-
'lito
CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 03:05:51 (ZULU)
Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 03:20:01 (ZULU)
'Lito-- Any chance of an "Optics for Shooters" type book? Just thought maybe you could make some money off'n us free-loaders, since optics is your lively hood.
Everyone, happy New Year. I tipped my cup of coffee for Bruce. I've got duty tonight.
Steve
steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 03:27:25 (ZULU)
Thanks again for all of the advice and answers you've provided.
Marc
MarcS
CV, CA, - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 04:26:31 (ZULU)
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 11:00:09 (ZULU)
Happy New Year to all in the Sand Box & other places and to those at home who keep us safe and well.
I was 'outta pocket at 1800 but Bruce and the folks in the Sand Box and other places were toasted at 2400 (Central) with 'sparkling Grape Juice.'
Be safe and well.
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 14:31:41 (ZULU)
Not sure if it will end up on my Savage Tactical 308 or my new sendero 300 mag. Probably on the mag for starters as it is without right now.
Spent last night celebrating with my daughter & wife. Daughter just returned from a year in Mosul. Oldest son still over there if feild artillery. He just signed up for 6 more. Momma's not to happy but I couldn't be more proud of the two.
Ron
Fireman Ron
Kansas, - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 18:30:41 (ZULU)
AdoptASniper challenge coins -
Friday I got my four AAS coins in the mail. These are just outstanding "in person!" If you haven't ordered some, do it.
Funny thing was the package was mailed from right down the street from me.
Brian, were the coins made up here in Florida? Just curious.
Moe
Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 19:20:47 (ZULU)
Updates on projects. I've "screwed together" a lightweight AR15 to go along with the IBA 30-06. With the CavArms receiver. 14.5" light barrel (16.25" including the perm.flashider), GGG Scout Rail, 2.5X Simmons shotgun scope (yes, I know, cheap...but has worked well on multiple AR's) and a loaded 30-round mag its just under 6#...and puts 5 Sierra 69g.MK's into 1.75" at 200 yds (and just over 2600fps in a 1/9 twist barrel...seems to stabilize just fine)...and does the same with 50g. TNT's..to the same point of aim no less.
The Savage 12 in 223 is boring... 0.5" at 100 with absolutely no load development...but the "gophers" (local colloquily for Richardson's and Columbian Ground Squirrels) and prarie dogs will be catching "boring" regularly starting next spring.
The Savage No.4 Enfield is coming along nicely (gotta be a machosist guncrank to love this one). PacNor SS Supermatch barrel, reworked trigger and custom scope mount (with the Romainan IOR 4X scope)...and all the original wood (including a repro. screw-on cheek piece)... looks like the "T" model at first glance. Its putting 174g. MatchKings into about 2 MOA, with some verticle stringing, so its in the basement receiving the "Holland and Holland" bedding recommendations...with the addition of some Brownell's SteelBed. Interestingly encough the British WWII accuracy standard for the "T" model (as fitted up by H&H) was pretty generous... 7 rounds into 5" or less at 200 yds (2.5MOA). My groups are running about 1-1.5MOA horizontal and 2.5-3 MOA verticle (usually caused by a "flier"...tells me bedding is an issue since the loads with RE15 have an SD of 10 or less).
Working on things in Montana in winter is a bit of an exercise in patience (or warm clothes)...last time I shot, it was about 15 degrees (F) with a light breeze (10mph)....I hate glasses! Damn things fog up just sitting at the bench at those temps...maybe go to contacts (but where's the eye protection then?).
Here's hoping for a good winter and a better spring.
Steve
Butte, MT, 'merica - Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 22:05:13 (ZULU)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=217285&page=3
sinister
Saturday, January 1, 2005, at 23:30:47 (ZULU)
You may want to check that the barrel channel isn't touching the barrel anywhere. Also look at the metal caps at the end of the stock.
If you haven't been to Savageshooters yet, we'd love to have you post about your Savage Enfield.
Happy New Year Y'all
Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 00:11:31 (ZULU)
Eldest daughter is home on her last night before going back to her unit and heading off to Iraq. For some reason (genetics?) she wants to watch "We Were Soldiers". They're down in the den watching it now, but somehow I can't seem to bring myself to do it with them. Remembrances of our war, and watching our youngsters going off to theirs is.....hard? weird? Bad enough if it's a son, they're men and my generation expects that of men. Girls....one day, they're playing with Barbies and the next thing you know, they're geting thier new Kevlar together....hard. So I'll just hide out up here until the movie's over then take her to the airport in the morning. Youse guys remember her from time to time. 88M. Wonder if they'll let Dad go for a couple of weeks until all those young guys get the hang of it....?
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 01:10:22 (ZULU)
Lito, would it work to put 3 or 4 holes in the card on front of yer scope and shoot at the centre of the group of dancing dots??I made a card for my scope after you posted on this before and it works a treat.the guys at the club thought it was some kinda witchcraft but agree that it works but dont seem to have adopted the thing :-)
Gavan Willis
Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 01:18:50 (ZULU)
There are more moving parts in a Glock, and this is supposed to be made of the same stuff.
I think I will check out the savageshooters site... I have a model 12 besides the Enfield.
Steve
Steve
Butte, MT, USA - Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 01:36:01 (ZULU)
Blake is hellbent to follow in my footsteps. Wish I could talk him out of it. 2 more years and we'll see...That is lurking on my horizon--so I can only imagine how tough it truly is saying goodbye to your kid heading off. I CANNOT imagine one of my lil princesses doing the same though. Must be really tough----mix of pride and fear wadded up in a gut-wrenching helplessness. I for one will pray for your little girl (who is now a soldier-trucker)...may she become bored to tears on many milk-runs!
Joe M
Joe Mahon
Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 02:21:23 (ZULU)
Coins were shipped by a cop sniper helping me out in your AO. Got the coins made through his company www.mightymensgear.com and then recruited him to do the shipping on them too. heh heh .. SUCKA.
Glad you liked 'em. Bet ya'll didn't know I was autistic.
They have been a hit thus far.
Will have a sack full at SHOT SHOW ... BK
brian k. sain
Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 04:41:45 (ZULU)
Gavin...
>"Lito, would it work to put 3 or 4 holes in the card on front of yer scope and shoot at the centre of the group of dancing dots??"<
Well, I guess, sorta ;) (HA!!)
-
lito
CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 13:54:19 (ZULU)
(and other Mideast locations):
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/19Nov04.html
(or click on my name)
Certainly makes it clearer why RPG's and IED's are the chosen tool by the opposition...
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 18:17:48 (ZULU)
Chuck, Joe, and all...
Never had to deal with the "kids going to war issue". Circumvented that via vasectomy at 26.
I do know that my parents where NOT happy when I chose the military as a career and enlisted at 19. Mom, was visibly upset. My take was that it was possible I could get hurt or killed, but how many get to choose and "go out" doing what they love? She accepted that. Heck I could get killed crossing the street.
As I matured(well, that's questionable)I could see the pride in their faces when I came home. Two combat tours and nary a scratch. Perhaps I'm just lucky...a lot of good men weren't.
Love and support your daughter. Have pride in her and her commitment. Telling you to NOT worry is pointless. You will.
Prayers to your family and for the safe return of your daughter.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 18:39:17 (ZULU)
Muzzle Velocity: 4200.0 ft/sec
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.210
Bullet Weight: 32 grains
Sight Height: 1.50 inches
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph
Target Speed: 10 mph
Target Angle: 90 degrees
Zero Range: 100 yards
Temperature: 59.6 °F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 50.0 %
Altitude: 3650 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calculated Table
Elevation: 2.475 moa
Azimuth: 0.000 moa
Range Velocity Energy Drop Windage Lead Time
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec)
0 4220.9 1265.8 -1.5 -0.0 0.0 0.000
100 3637.7 940.2 -0.0 1.0 13.5 0.077
200 3124.6 693.7 -1.2 4.2 29.2 0.166
300 2665.0 504.6 -5.9 10.0 47.5 0.270
400 2251.2 360.1 -15.6 19.0 69.1 0.392
500 1875.9 250.0 -32.2 32.2 94.8 0.539
600 1545.5 169.7 -58.9 50.8 125.9 0.715
700 1275.5 115.6 -163.2 108.6 208.7 1.186
What you see above is ballistics of the Ruger .204.
We tested it this weekend in a Savage Accutrigger flutted hvy barrel on the short range (100-200) meters. We tested it on Prairie Dogs and a dozen Coyotes for just effective stopping power and general acceptability.
Compared in the field to .788 Remington, .223 55 grain V-max and .243 Winchesster 75 grain V-max.
We tested it in a 20mph cross wind and no wind conditions.
Recoil - very slight, less than .223 Remington 788 test comparison.
Reoort - very acceptable with almost no abnoxious blast.
Feeding and loading - Excellent in the Savage Rifle we used.
Trigger was Accutrigger and excellent performance on it's part.
Prairie Dog accuracy was outstanding at distances to 300 yards.
wind effect was less than the .223 and no difference from the .243.
Accuracy on Paper was always less than 1moa.
Evaluation.
A new standard in Varmint rifles. Now for the good stuff.
Coyotes brought down were 10 and all by the same shooter in 3 days of hunting on the plains in what you would call good conditions. Shots were longest about 400 and shortest about 50 yards. NO coyotes were lost. One that was running had to have two rounds to finish him. ALL others were one shot kills and a couple were running when shot and rolled up neatly. Shooter reported leading them about the same but shots were easier to make he thought. Only 2 coyotes were lost in the 3 days of hunting. This is way above average for this year as the cover is bad and chance of deflecting a bullet is high with all the brush.
All in all this one gets 4 thumbs up. Don't let the fact that its a Ruger cartridge turn you off. The case is clearly .222 Remington necked down. It has Ackley looking shoulder. Hornado makes the 4200 fps load with 32 grain v-max bullets. Other powder such as 335 and even varget can be used but velocity will be reduced about 10% if you go by the published data. Some kind of super powder is used presumbably some of that stuff they were loading .223 mach 4 stuff with a couple of years ago.
Just a word on the Rifle........Super!
My first word on the subject was... "whatdaweneedwiththatshit"
I probably won't run out and buy one till some other things get settled like...how long is this barrel gonna deliver that kind of accuracy. But if you want something new that seems to work quite well, no recoil and plenty of offerings from manufactuers this one looks like it not only fills a gap, it's an excellent choice for the old .222 magnum case to be resurrected from. Much more interesting to me than the even the .17 or the new .27 Military cartridge but then, I have tried that .27 yet.
I better add that finding the brass is not easy yet. Just go buy a case of Hornady if you can find it and load it later. Bullets aren't cheap either but they are available. Dies cleaning rods and other needs are gonna also be a little hard to find for a while. The 17 rods will work though.
Off to the range!
Brogers
Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 19:34:39 (ZULU)
don warren
edgewater, md, usa - Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 20:08:07 (ZULU)
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, January 2, 2005, at 23:26:57 (ZULU)
BRogers, I have had VERY good luck getting .204 Ruger ammo from Midway.
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, January 3, 2005, at 03:34:54 (ZULU)
Whenever you hear a rumor like the one you just posted... check www.snopes.com....they are almost always bogus.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/drpepper.asp
Something to ponder
Who would benefit if we responded to every single one of these rumors that targets a big US corporation?...... hmmmmmm
Who benefits when we pass on chain letters to five friends.... and that expands over and over to clog up email and the internet, requiring companys to spend five times as much to keep the bandwidth that runs business flowing... hmmmmm
medicjim
Monday, January 3, 2005, at 03:51:07 (ZULU)
Brogers
Monday, January 3, 2005, at 04:35:35 (ZULU)
Situation resolved...sorry didnt know where to find the stuff ya posted wont happen again.
Marc
USA - Monday, January 3, 2005, at 05:16:54 (ZULU)
I have gotten loaded ammo and bullets of various weights from Midway. So far, I have only ordered the Hornady 32 and 40 grain bullets. Berger also makes several bullets of similar and heavier weights.
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, January 3, 2005, at 14:21:08 (ZULU)
Goes to The Colorado Division of Wildlife
for their online License purchase.
You go to their page and give them your CID # (9 digits numerical)
Nobody knows what this for but it will call up your last years information. Maybe it's a good thing Martha.
Then you fill in all the information and correct the adr and all that, and that's ok Martha.
Then you give them your drivers license number (10 digits at least).
PRESUMABLY you can't hunt if you can't drive. (Who knows)
Then you give them your credit card number (15 digits or so).
Now your are ready to receive your Temporary authorization to hunt number until you get your license in the mail which will be mailed you are assured within the next 5 business days.
Now you get your
TA# XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX digits both alpha and numberical long.
Now your TRANSACTION NUMBER XXXXXXXXX DIGITS
NOW YOUR PAYMENT AUTHORIZATION CODE XXXXXX DIGITS.
THERE ARE ENOUGH NUMBER HERE TO CODE EVERY KNOWN STAR IN THE UNIVERSE.
Brogers
Monday, January 3, 2005, at 17:56:39 (ZULU)
Mike
BMG Mike
AUSTX, - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 00:19:54 (ZULU)
Was contacted by Bobby last week to come up to Grandfield and check out the new facilities @ Badlands and get some range time in on Sat. Sounded like a good idea. Decided to leave Fri. afternoon and made it in time for the New Years Eve activities (Good Timing!)
All I'll say here is that Badlands Tactical Training Facility is getting bigger and betterer with more classroom space, a bigger hooch (and kitchen)....and all that in a building that's more than adequate for room to grow. In addition to that, they're adding several new tactical courses. Stay tuned.
Next day @ the range proved to be a good one. The winds (did I say winds) stayed primarily out of the south with little directional change which was good for getting some come-ups on a new load I had just developed.
Numerous familiar faces (and some new ones I hadn't met) were there and it was good to see these guys again.
All in all a good leisurely day and I gots to burn lots of powder....and that as Martha Stewart would say, "Is a good thing!!" ;))) We need to do that more often......
BTW, somebody ask Bobby what he thinks about the 155 Scenars...heheheh ;)))
Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 01:22:08 (ZULU)
Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 02:07:08 (ZULU)
Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)
News Release
------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. 006-04
IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 3, 2005
------------------------------------------------------------------------
DoD Identifies Army Casualty
The Department of Defense announced today the death of a soldier who was supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Sgt. 1st Class Pedro A. Munoz, 47, of Aquada, Puerto Rico, died Jan. 2 in Shindand, Afghanistan, of injuries sustained Jan. 1 when his patrol encountered enemy fire. Munoz was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 7th Special Forces Group, Fort Bragg, N.C.
=================
When it's a bland press release you can't possibly put a name and a face and a laugh of one of your team mates on a web site to let the world know how big an impression he made on millions of people. SFC Pedro Munoz, the "Big Indian" served on the Golden Knights "Gold" Team, spreading goodwill and enthusiasm around the world.
He was a great example and role model. He would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. He was a man you could depend on without asking or checking. I did, hundreds of times.
Vaya con Dios, Hermano.
Blue Skies.
sinister
Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 03:09:57 (ZULU)
My condolences on the loss of Sgt 1st Class Munoz. Like so many we've served with his loss hits close to home.
It is your memories and that of his counterparts that will keep his accomplishments alive and honor him...for a long time.
Taps....
Semper Fi,
W. Howe, Maj., USMC(Ret.)
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 07:48:44 (ZULU)
My condolences, sir.
John
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 11:40:29 (ZULU)
Vaughn Johnson / Brian Sain: Adapt a Sniper coins showed up yesterday -- very nicely done....
take care all - enjoy this odd spring weather while you can :)
ken hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 12:17:41 (ZULU)
Thank you for sharing. When I read the DOD press release yesterday I knew nothing about your friend and now I do. You have my condolences Sir.
Doc
An old Naval Aviator
Doc Holloway
The foggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 13:18:55 (ZULU)
Okay, I have a SA m-14/M-1A scope mount I haven't used in years, consider it dontated. I also have a drawer full of rings, mostly 1" Weaver-type (no tacticals though). If your guys have a use/need for them, I can send those as well. Where do you want them shipped?
Happy new year all...
T
Caison
Dela-Where?, USA! - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 13:30:20 (ZULU)
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 14:23:33 (ZULU)
Sorry to hear about your loss, another brave man has given his life for the freedoms that we all cherish. He may be physically gone, but his spirit will live on eternal.
Mk4,
Enjoyed having you up for the get together. You are right, we do need to do that more often. I had a BLAST! Really enjoyed playing with John L's recipe for the 155's. Must say..initial impression is WOW! Going to load more up and go back out this weekend.
John L. - Stand by for follow up report after this weekend. Scenars may be replacing SMK's here.
Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 17:41:43 (ZULU)
Sorry about your friend, it's hard enough when we don't know them or can't see their faces in our minds. It's really hard when we can hear their voices and feel their spirit in our hearts. Best to his family and all his many friends.
Brian,
Got my coins today, very nice work. I'll carry mine with pride.
Indiansinger
Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 22:48:13 (ZULU)
This link was passed on by a friend thought you guys might
like to see it if you haven't already. It's good pictures with sound.
http://www.clermontyellow.accountsupport.com/flash/UntilThen.swf
Happy New Year all.
TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 00:20:08 (ZULU)
I came to this question: since this is a variable power scope, do I have to have it on the highest power before doing mil readings?
Thanks for your time!
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 00:42:02 (ZULU)
Are there things that can be done to minimize cold bore shot dispertion from the rest of the group? After I clean my rifle I normaly run a patch with 3 in 1 oil followed by a dry patch. If time permits would a patch with alcohol or solvent followed by a dry patch make a difference in where the 1st cold bore shot goes?
Thanks.
Oh it pays to be nice. I turned a co-worker on to a great Wetherby rifle close-out sale at wal-mart right before deer season. The other day as I was bemoaning the lack of places to shoot long range he took me about 10 minutes from where I live to a 1/2 mile square pasture he owns. I now have free range to shoot there as I please.
Nice safe location as well:)
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 00:54:56 (ZULU)
I am getting my 1st Mk4 this week as well. Here is a link to a very informative article. Enjoy
http://www.swfa.biz/mildot2.asp
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 01:21:54 (ZULU)
What I can't fathom is why they need a 27 digit number for a 3 day license..
Brogers
Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 01:31:12 (ZULU)
This is speculation, not based on rigorous testing by
"Clean, condition, cold bore shot POI test, repeat...".
I would think you would want to create as repeatable a post-cleaning condition as possible. 3-in-1 oil seems heavy for such an application. Patching out any oils with a solvent that would subsequently evaporate would seem to be a possible approach.
The other option would be using a very thin oil (like Kroil). Kroil is routinely used for bore cleaning in part because of its superlative penetrating characteristics. I understand that Kroil is a poor rust protectant, so you can't have everything. Patching out a very light oil would probably not require using a solvent.
I finish with Kroil and then a dry patch.
(Rock 5R barrel on .308 Savage)
I haven't noticed wild first/subsequent shot variation, but my own "cold" technique with a rifle is not yet consistent enough to draw definite conclusions.
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 02:11:39 (ZULU)
What power of scope is it? 3.5 x 10? On those models the power setting needs to be set at 10, but don't take that as gospel. Put the scope on a barber pole (make you a 1x2 about 6 foot long, paint alternating 3.6 inch blocks of red and white) and fiddle with the power setting until one mil fits on the breaks between the colors, then mark your power setting if it is anything else than max power.
Fireman,
Shooting a CB with oil or solvent in the barrel is bad juju, it will cause variation in your CBS. Run a patch thru the bore with isopropyl alcohol (91 or higher percentage). The alcohol will dry the solvent/oil out of the barrel. Is the CBS going to the same spot everytime? If it is, that is something that you can learn to live with. My Winchester Stealth consistently shoots CBS 2 MOA high, first shot I just hold low or dial down, then back to zero.
Hope this helps ya'll out.
Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 02:16:14 (ZULU)
I have a 4.5-14x40
That barber pole is a good idea, and since U want me to make the stripes 3.6" wide, then I would assume that the pole should be put 100 yards out.
Thanks!!
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 03:18:47 (ZULU)
Didn't you have a load worked up in 300 Win Mag with 168 grainers and Varget? Seems I recall something about it shooting well but you needed to use Mag primers. Looking for starter loads with Varget. I will test many other powders as well but use Varget in several other cal's and would like to find a useable load in 300.
Thanks.
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 03:26:31 (ZULU)
Ooops..My mistake, I was distracted by bratboy while I was typing that. Yes sir, put the pole 100 yards out. Then play with the power. On that model, I have seen some set at 14 and some at 12.
Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 03:32:59 (ZULU)
thanks a million, I will try that once this crazy weather here in the midwest straightens out.
If nobody has any objections, I will post my findings on here for reference.
Bret J. Christianson
The Cold A** Plains of, South Dakota, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 03:51:41 (ZULU)
If your rifle doesn't do that, the next best thing is to "map" your cold bore shot by recording your cold bore hits. Each time you go out to shoot, pay particular attention to the cold bore shot and keep record of them. After a while, look at your data. It will indicate the most likely POI for your cold bore shots and, should the need arise, you can make the proper adjustment for a first round hit. Someone has already mentioned this, it works.
Indiansinger
Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 04:40:31 (ZULU)
I know this subject has been brought up before but would like to see some discussion on what some of you guys are doing (currently) in the way of Data Books.
I've got a TRGT and like it well enough but think I would prefer a binder like what U.S. Tactical sells (which I think is a Rite in the Rain product?). Problem with the TRGT is that its spiral bound and can't be added to or subtracted. Once a page is used, thats it.
I did look up in the archives and found where Lindy had something to say about buying a six ring binder for that reason.
http://www.riteintherain.com/tact.html
I guess maybe what my question is this, you guys that are custom making your own log books.....what are you putting in them? Are you buying your data sheets already printed or are you buying bulk "Rite in the Rain" paper and printing them off of a PDF site like what LTRDavid is providing @ his website?
http://home.comcast.net/~davidawilson/LongRange/LR_Frame.htm
My only problem there is I've got an ink-jet printer where "Rite in the Rain" recommends a laser printer.....or does it matter?
I think custom building my own is the way to go and inserting info that I know I'll use and maybe removing later what I don't need would be preferable.
--
Sinister,
My condolences to you sir on the loss of a comrade.
--
BKS,
I got a set of Millet 30MM rings still in the box. Can you use them?
Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 06:51:29 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 11:24:30 (ZULU)
I bought some of the pages for the binder which have a range card on one side and lines on the other, and lined pages.
That's all I need. I have a section for a barrel log in which I record the number of shots fired on a given date, as well as the dates on which I cleaned the barrel.
I also have a section in which I accumulated cold-bore shots.
Most of the rest of the data book is just written comments in chronological order. I have sufficient experience with my rifle and load that most of what I keep in the log book now is variations which I encounter for the elevation I expected to get based upon past experience and ballistic software.
When I shoot in an unusual location, like at a higher elevation than normal, I record a "dope card" for that environment with elevations predicted by my software at hundred yard increments, and then note actual elevations along side that for comparison. That gives me a check on my software.
I have a new rifle inbound, though, and I'll start accumulating experience on it in a new section.
While I am a finikin, I'm not enough of one to record every shot which goes downrange, except in the barrel log. I know what the load I shoot does by now.
You also don't need to buy the binder I have. Day Runner makes a day planner binder which fits those pages, available at most office supply stores.
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 13:25:20 (ZULU)
It was 57.5 grains if I can remember right. There's a lot of air in the case but Varget seems very forgiving on that point.
I didn't take it out past 300 but at 200 the load shot same hole.
For cold bore shots. And take this with a grain of salt but it's worth a try. I started cleaning with some stuff called Blue Wonder. It's paste and does copper about as good as anything I've ever used.
I imagined my cold bore shots improved greatly. Seems like anything that leaves a grease or oil residue lowers pressure and the bore shot is off somewhere. Usually my 1000 yard shots are about the same on the first group or the second. Other rifles might be different.
The alcohol might do the same thing but it tends to cause rust due to the fact it's so clean I guess. Perhaps you could swab with it to clean the oil out just before you shoot. The Blue Wonder is a good cleaner anyway and doesn't stink up the house.
Brogers
Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 16:18:56 (ZULU)
Isn't alcohol used in gas line anti-freeze because it draws moisture out of the gas? Wouldn't leaving alcohol in the barrel have the same effect - drawing moisture?
JMTC
Jerry
Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 16:58:40 (ZULU)
AdoptaSniper coins arrived while I was at work. The only thing I can say about them is: WAY COOL!
Nice design...now if I was just a fer real sniper...;-)
Cleaning and Kroil. Some folks(crazy benchresters, etc.)use JB and Kroil to clean and swear by it. As for me NOTHING abrasive goes down the bore of my rifles. Generally, I clean with Hoppe's #9 to get the gunk out, and then to Shooters choice for the copper, finally back to Hoppe's to get the the shooters choice out. Then a half dozen or so dry patches to get the Hoppe's out. Have never had trouble with any of my three rifles haveing a CBS that is outside the normal group. Either I'm very lucky or can't shoot well enough to know the difference.
Kroil has many uses around the shop, but NOT as a cleaning agent. Anyone tried Ed's Red?
Off to work. We bid today. God know's where I'll wind up or what shift. Standard story for one who is new to the organization that is union affiliated.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 17:51:58 (ZULU)
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 19:19:09 (ZULU)
A lesson learned the hard way - The USPS has a flat rate box 8.5" x 11" x 5.5" for which they charge $7.70. You can put a whole lot of heavy stuff in there and ship to an APO cheap....
medicjim
Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 19:21:54 (ZULU)
Sorry Guys that Blue Wonder not Blue Magic. Gees I'm getting old.
A lot of that first clean bore shot is due to Temperature and bedding but once that's been minimized the other factors come into play.
Bobby Whittington; There's a place called Powder Valley up by Wichita Kansas that sells Lapua and the price on the Scenars didn't seem bad. Since they were close and seemed easy to deal with I thought I'd pass it along. WWW.Powdervalleyinc.com
Brogers
Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 19:23:23 (ZULU)
how many rounds do you have down that FagMag of yours? Have you ever shot an F class match with it?
The reason I ask, and sorry JR but I know you've found out by now, is that I have to JB the throats about every 200 rounds or so because the build up of powder and copper will cause the barrel to stop shooting. It happened to me right before Perry this year. The rifle went to shit, and wouldn't shoot better than a 189. I JB's her and it went back to shooting 198's+.
I will admit, it doesn't clean up as easy as it used to. There is certainly a bit more wash in the bore since the JB'ing,, but since I have to hit the throat anyway, I just clean her out with 10 strokes and I don't worry about it.
Soaking in Sweets does not pull this shit out. 10 strokes with JB's on a patch wrapped around an old brush and I'm good. There may still be copper, but it's not enough that it seems to matter.
So that no one gets the wrong idea,, I've had to do this with a 5R Rock Creek, a modified 10X 6 groove Border (though not as much, only every 400 rounds or so) a 5R Border and a 4 groove Krieger. All act the same, at about the same time, except the 6 groove which went a bit longer than the rest. It's inhgerent to the caliber. My 6BR,, NO copper at all. The varget guns this up a bit after about 80 rounds, but that's a simple clean. Hoppes#9 and a little time and I'm done.
In a rifle that I could expect 5000 rounds from, I don't think I'd use an abrasive. BUT, in a barrel that will see 1200 if I'm lucky,, does it really matter?
FatBoy...
Chris
Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 21:30:48 (ZULU)
ah was that my first anti moa, fractions of an inch, yards etc post of the year??
Cold Bore Shot, my method. Ive treid all sorts of methods over the years, Ive come to the conclusion that some rifles like some fouling and some like a clean bore and you have to find out what yours likes and tailor your CBS and cleaning routine to suit.
First off, forget patches of flanellette. get your hands on some VFG cleaning swabs, they are far superior.
I use Forest Bore Foam these days and its as good as anything ive treid and better than most. spray it in the barrel and let it work. swab it out with the VFG's until the barrel is dry, depending on how long you left the foam in the bore you might need to swab out with a VFG and some solvent as the foam goes sticky and dry if left to long, alternatively spray the barrel with foam again, give it 10 minutes and swab it out. If storing the rifle, apply a light film of oil on a VFG to the bore.
If you know that the rifle needs to be shot and fouled before it will put the CBS into the same group, shoot the thing. if not Bob's your uncle. Ive found that about 50% of rifles will shoot the CBS into the main group from a dry clean barrel and about 50% like to have a couple of foulers through first, there doeasn't seem to be a pattern to it at all, by pattern i mean your would think that custom barrels would perform better, ie, get the CBS in to the group direct from a clean dry barrel, and that pehaps factory barrels would require some fouling, but i aint found a pattern yet, like wise i can't say ive seen a patter that would mean cut rifled barrels do this, buttoned do that and hammered do that. the only thing to do is get a good cleaning routine going, check out exactly what your particular rifle does and adapt accordingly.
Spent 2 fruitless night in the woods the last 2 nights, its too bloody mild, so much for a hard winter. no pigs showing.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 22:29:04 (ZULU)
I've used Ed's Red. It's most active ingredients are kerosene, acetone, & ATF. I don't think it's any better or worse than any of the other home brews. Sure is cheap, though.
Don Black
Wednesday, January 5, 2005, at 22:37:23 (ZULU)
Anyhoo, AA4350 pushing them longskinnys at a bit over 2800 put 5 into 0.5" at 200 yds. Ain't never done anything like that in all my born days. Waiting for a calm day to try it again (this weekend looks like it might work, but there's nothing like trying to squeeze a shot off at 0 degrees and the glasses foggin' up... by the way, any of you "cold weather" shooters have suggestions for preventing fogged glasses...other than contacts?).
The stick has consistently put Sierra 200g. MK's into about 1.5" at 200 (at 2600 fps), but I may really have something in the Bergers? (of course I just got 500 Sierras...go figger).
I know there's a lot of enthusiasm for the Lapua Scenar 155's around here, but anyone have any experience with the same in the 185's or 210's??
Oh, yeah, after the "H&H" bedding, the Enfield No.4 is consistently a 2MOA stick with Sierra 174 MK's and 180 GameKings. I now have a Midway order coming with Speer 150, Hornaday 180's, more Sierra 174's and some Woodleigh 215's (in case I ever draw a Moose tag up here) to play with. Too bad nobody makes any .311 VLD's....now that's a picture?
Steve
Butte, MT, USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 00:08:42 (ZULU)
Thanks for that information!! You are right, they do have very good prices on Lapua products. BTW, if you stumble across that recipe for the .300 Win Mag using Varget, I would appreciate it if I could get a copy of it from you. I have a friend that recently obtained one, and he is looking for loads to try.
As promised, BadLands is expanding the course curriculum for 2005. One of the new courses that we are offering in 2005 will be a 50 hour CLEET (Council on Law Enforcement & Education) accredited Basic SWAT Course. This course will be held April 25-29, 2005. For information on this course,( I know that this is a sniper forum, but bet there are some door kickers that hang out here) visit the badlands website at www.badlandstactical.net.
Students attending can stay free of charge at our new 7500 sq feet dormitory/classroom facility. The dorm has fully operational showers, and a large fully operational kitchen.
Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 00:39:18 (ZULU)
High purity isopropyl alcohol doesn't leave any residue when it evaporates. This makes it handy as the last step in establishing a clean bore as CBS prep. Others have correctly pointed out that it also can pull away any oils protecting the bore which then makes it vulnerable to rust, so it can be a mixed blessing.
It's difficult to make isopropanol much beyond 91% because it will
suck the moisture out of the air given the opportunity and dilute itself!
I like using isopropanol compared to other solvents for general cleaning and degreasing in part because isopropanol is less toxic (and smells nicer) than a number of the alternatives. This is especially handy if your range time is limited and you have to clean your firearms indoors as a consequence.
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 01:06:44 (ZULU)
This product has been suggested as a preventive to getting moisture on your glasses or other optical surfaces, as opposed to treating the optics themselves.
On special right now too :-)
POLARWRAP™ EXCHANGER® FACE GAITER THERMAL EXCHANGE DEVICE™
http://www.actiongear.com
on special $39.97 (normally $60 ea).
"Patented cold weather face wrap warms inhaled air to keep your body internally warmer and more comfortable! The Exchanger captures heat and water vapor that is normally lost when you exhale. When you inhale dry, cold air, it is transformed into warm, moist air before it enters your body core. You stay amazingly warm, losing less heat to the environment. Eliminates lung chill, reduces dehydration and keeps hands and feet warmer longer. Ideal for skiing, work, including deep freeze operations, spectator sports, snowmobiling, hunting & outdoor use."
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 01:20:12 (ZULU)
Registration is 9AM, shooting starts at 10Am CST. We have been getting done at 2PM sharp with three relays. If we run four, it'll be a little longer, but not much.
Match fees are $15, and the match is non-approved.
The weather is supposed to be great, 50's in the AM 70 by mid-afternoon. It doesn't get much better than that!
Hope to see some of you on the line. If you need drive directions, or have any questions, please contact me at sweepman@tds.net.
FatBoy...
Chris
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 02:14:31 (ZULU)
TonyY
TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 02:31:50 (ZULU)
Rod was on here about two or three weeks back announcing that they will be holding two ASC4 matches...one for new guys and one for the BTDT group. I think they are looking at both in May, back to back weekends....
medicjim
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 03:16:55 (ZULU)
Don, thanks for the take on Ed's Red. I have some, but am loath to use it on my tactical stuff. Seems to do fine on pistols and such...
Chris, Haven't shot my fagmag in a while. Last I checked I had 352 documented rounds through the tube. This is a 1:8" Hart barrel. I haven't experienced any of the effects you have, but I don't shoot rapid fire or F-class with it.
I use the same regimen on all my rifle cleaning. That's a Hart, Obermeyer 5R, and Rock 5R I'm working with...looks like two cut rifled and one button rifled. I have never experienced the copper problem you have, in the troats of any of my rifles.
What's your barrel throat/lead look like. Bad road?
All for now,
Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 03:31:01 (ZULU)
I've thought about one of these... they're advertised in Cabelas here in the States...but... One of the issues is the "capture of water vapor". Where does it go? Looks to me like you'd wind up looking like Dumbo with a couple cheeks full of water after a while. And the inhaled air in this neck of the woods (not to mention Nova Scotia!) can be well below zero, which I would think could eventually freeze in the "exhaled" channels. Anyway, I may give it a try. I think that the snowmobile dealers here'bouts may actually have some in stock. I think that sometimes the heat from my cheeks (no, on my face!) is enough to fog the glasses.
Some of the folks from the 10 Mountain Division or Special Ops may have some stuff to keep the Oakleys from fogging in cold weather (the old diver's trick of spit in the facemask would just be frozen spit on the glasses here)?
This may be boring to you folks around Bliss, Campbell, Hood, Bragg and the like, but us folks in the frozen north wallow in it! We also get more opportunity to check the "temperature sensitivity" of various powders/primers at the low end of the scale! (all y'all can have the "high end" and we'll have it covered".)
Steve
Butte, MT, USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 03:52:06 (ZULU)
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 03:53:02 (ZULU)
TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 04:08:55 (ZULU)
TonyY
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 04:13:50 (ZULU)
Lindy, first beer is on me. Tony Y any chance you will get there? Catman how about you?
Undude/Mike
MikeMIller
CA, - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 06:56:08 (ZULU)
Rich
Richard
Auckland, New Zealand - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 09:15:47 (ZULU)
Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 11:59:58 (ZULU)
My barrels are good, the throat and leade look alright in all. I don't get this with my 308 or 6BR,, just my fagmags. I've had five do the same thing, 2 Borders, a Rock Creek and a Krieger. All with different land and groove profiles too. I hear the same from most of the shooters who use them for NRA prone and F class as well. 26 shots in 16+ minutes kills them.
Nature of the beast I guess.
FatBoy...
Chris
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 12:22:11 (ZULU)
Tony, Yes we will be doing another match-actually TWO. The dates are:
May 14/15 for people that have been to a previous ASC;
May 21/22 for people that have not been to an ASC before.
We would like to get everyone together at the same time but we feel that 30 people is the most we can handle due to the fomat of the match. As you know since the match is not held at a traditional "range" and many of the shooting positions will only accomodate one shooter it takes a little more time to run people through. We set it up this way presuming that people that had shot previous matches would like to see some of the familiar faces. We have already had a couple people request to shoot with the opposite group for partnership reasons and that will be OK.
I will send out more match info once the shooter lists develope a little more. We are looking forward to it as always and have come up with some rather devilish twists for ASC # 4. Hope to meet lots of new people this year. The basic format for the match will stay the same as previous years.
Rod
Rod Hansen
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 13:12:07 (ZULU)
Scott S, no offense intended, I just know that is the usual failing point for all of us (training / sweat part) not the kit.
Bobby, will be standing by for the report. Out of town this week, limited access for a while yet.
John L
Mid, MO, U.S.A. - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 13:26:21 (ZULU)
Richard of New Zealand; http://www.wichitaarms.com/
I don't see any sling swivels on their site there but it's probably the place your looking for. Maybe they can help you out.
Brogers
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 13:28:39 (ZULU)
I didn't say it explicitly but registration IS OPEN. Do not try to use the internal (Roster) email function because the system has an old address that I have not been able to change. Ken maybe you can help with this???? Use HSG (AT) sprynet DOT com- all lower case.
Rod
Rod Hansen
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 13:46:17 (ZULU)
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 13:58:20 (ZULU)
I also use Ed's Red for powder fouling. Follow it up with Butches' for the copper.
Steve,
The '06 likes them heavy bullets (185 & 190gr) in the 2800+ fps range. I tried the 185gr Scenars and 190SMK's and found a sweet spot at about 2875fps. The 190SMK's were just a little more accurate and cheaper, so I settled on a load consisting of Lapua brass, 60.4gr RL22, and a Fed. 210M primer. RL22 is your friend in the '06 with these bullets.
Don
Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 16:33:26 (ZULU)
Does any company make a match bullet that I could use for deer hunting or vise versa. I understand I am asking a bullet to do two complete different jobs, but if anyone has had really good luck with a hunting bullet in a match situation I would love there feedback.
Thanks for your time!
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 17:37:10 (ZULU)
I've had really good luck with 165 grain gamekings in my .308. I 've shot 1/2" 3 shot 100 yd groups with the federal factory loading on many occasions, when I can do my part. I don't know if you consider that accurate enough, but I don't do much better than that with match ammo anyway, since I'm shooting a bone stock remington 700 VS.
John Bechtell
MT, USA - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 17:44:24 (ZULU)
Brogers
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 18:59:22 (ZULU)
Zac
povo, ut , US - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 19:12:19 (ZULU)
I have had good luck with 165 gr Nosler BT's. They shoot great out of my rifle (Rem 700 308 Win 26" 7 contour 10 twist Hart bbl) with FL sized Lapua case, 45.5 gr Varget (45.5 you read it right...I have an 8lb jug of the "slow" Varget I am almost done with), Win Lg Primer, seated 10 thou off the rifling.
PJC
Upstate, SC, US of A - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 20:16:16 (ZULU)
http://www.snipercountrypx.com/store/comersus_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=387
Brogers
Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 20:27:51 (ZULU)
I have both the Beartooth product and the Eagle Stock Pack on different rifles to raise the comb. They both work well within their design goals. The Beartooth is quite a bit cheaper,
so if you're just using a rifle for known distance range shooting it would be a better deal. The Beartooth also has more adjustment increments as part of the kit. If you need something in a tactical flavour, then the Eagle Stock Pack would be a better choice for that.
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 21:15:55 (ZULU)
I have had great luck hunting with the Hornady A-Max. Both 155 and 168 grain bullets. On whitetail deer they have been very efficient performers and accuracy is outstanding in my rifle. I don't know that I would use them on animals larger than deer as they may lack enough penetration. They will come apart somewhat but I have always had a large exit wound on deer here in Kansas.
Fireman Ron
kansas, - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 22:29:39 (ZULU)
A lot of guys have been reporting match type results with the new Barnes Triple Shok bullets. They are a boattailed hollowpoint. 308 bullet is 168 grains. I'm sure they would probably go 175 gr if some learned folks (like those here) told them why the 175's were better.
Jim
JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 23:27:50 (ZULU)
if you want match accuracy from a game bullet try:
Hornady SST
Hornady Interlock BTSP
Nostler ballistic Tip
Sierra Game King
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, January 6, 2005, at 23:51:13 (ZULU)
I agree that most Match bullets are ill advised for hunting. This is often because they are thicker jacketed and not made to offer terminal performance.
The A-Max is made like a match bullet as far as accuracy but has a thinner jacket and is made to have a high terminal performance. That is why it is used in the Hornady TAP ammo. (Tactical application Police) It has been very effective.
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 00:48:08 (ZULU)
You wack a big buck on the shoulder and i garantie one of these days your gonna cause a horrible wounding injury and a slow and painfull death. There are plenty of good accurate hunting bullets out there to choose from. Its illegal to use a match bullet on game here, it should be there too. They are either not frangible enough or too frangible. I've heared about people using amax's for hunting
I'd use em on varmints like coyote or fox though.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 01:36:25 (ZULU)
We may have to agree to disagree on this one. I indeed have shot a few large bucks in the shoulder with the 168 A-Max. Busted shoulder and dead on the spot deer were the results. This bullet does come apart faster than hunting bullets in the same weight and that is why I limit it to whitetail deer for myself. I think it is too frangible for anything larger and would worry about the very scenerio you pictured.
Between me and two family we have taken 18 whitetail with it and it has worked very well. Your fears are not without merit but they have worked for me and deer hunting.
Respectfuly.
Ron
Fireman Ron
Kansas, - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 01:47:43 (ZULU)
The trick with rite in the rain paper is this:
Print on regular paper and PHOTOCOPY onto R.I.T.R paper.
photocopies are heat set so they work.
Critter out
Critter
Upstate, NY, - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 02:45:43 (ZULU)
Thanks. I had considered that but was trying to bypass that route and do it myself w/o taking it to the printers but may have to anyway.
Lindy,
Thanks to you as well on the Data book response.
You're shooting the 155 Scenars in your AE... right? What is your COAL? I've got an AICS/700 and will be shooting some thru that rifle and believe I can seat the Scenar a bit further out because of the magazine length being longer than the Remington. Just curious if you're seating yours beyond 2.80.
Lito,
Did you ever work up any loads for the 155 Scenars? I'll be trying some H4895 using some of Dirty Steve's loading data along with some TAC that Bobby gave me. Dirty Steve posted some interesting data back in July 02. I'm gonna try some of it along with John L's recipe.
BRogers,
Am also using Blue Wonder. I like the idea of using it alone w/o having to use 2 separate solvents.
Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 03:26:52 (ZULU)
Ive played around with a bunch of game bullets over the years and have settled on a limited few.
Hornady Interlock, Sierra Game King, Nostler Bal Tip are all great deer bullets.
For larger pigs and Mule or large Red deer i'd step up to a Nostler Partition.
next up would be the Lapua Mega and the Norma Vulkan.
up to now i've not needed anything tougher than that.
I saw some ammo called deep shock or something like that at the IWA last year, apparenlty devastating shock effect without over penatration, they would be good for culling wild hogs around the arport, elimination the need for the ever absent back stop, no bugger seems to import em over here though.
Ive had more bother with bullets that where to tough for deer, with pigs its been with bullets that wherent tough enough.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 04:02:00 (ZULU)
This is a link to the introduction of Project 2005 on Savageshooters.com.
http://www.savageshooters.com/Articles/Project05_intro.html
The rifles are both 6.5-284 built from different sponsors items but with the same barrel specs. Gonna review all of the items and barrels over the the next 12 months. Hope y'all enjoy it.
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 04:38:34 (ZULU)
My only question is how does it do that? You could butter your bread with that stuff and I doubt it would even make you sick but the copper just falls apart....
brogers
Friday, January 7, 2005, at 05:07:47 (ZULU)
I had a look thanks ,have sent mail, any outher ideas I need a SOLID set of swivels as I`m useing the shooter for F class with a turner bio sling and its also my huntin rifle ,yeh i know buy 1 for each but i`m in the 20%LH club and cant find what I want retail so i`m haveing a rifle bulit on a montana stainles med action Truflyt match barrell
Mc m40 stock .Just dont trust quick fall off swivels
Rich.
Richard Orsuilch
Takapuna, Auckland, New Zealand - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 06:16:00 (ZULU)
Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 07:05:18 (ZULU)
Anybody else have any experience with them?
On the other hand My Tikka has a factory sling system that makes American rifles look really light but anyway I just thought I'd mention it.
Gooch; Some things are just toooo ugly. But your poetry makes it all possible. I don't know which is worse ... crawling through the grass with a ugly chick or ugly tape on your ugly rifle stock. Some things a Okie just hesitates to do.
Brogers
Friday, January 7, 2005, at 07:56:53 (ZULU)
darn if i don't see more game from the autobahn then i do when i'm hunting, must have seen near a hundred deer this morning, add that to a splatted hog on the road side and 2 Muntjak in a field not far from home, Muntjak are invading Germany !!
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 10:46:41 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 11:05:18 (ZULU)
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 13:09:19 (ZULU)
I received my 2 sniper coins yesterday. Loo-king GUD!
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 14:29:39 (ZULU)
Why risk it when there are bullets out there built for the job and have incredible accuracy. Match bullets can and do perform well on game - sometimes. Sometimes they just blow to bits, and sometimes they punch straight through like a needle. I don't like SOMETIMES when I'm shooting animals that can initially survive horrific injuries only to die a horrible death later. They deserve respect. Smaller animals will be killed humanely with a hit from pretty much any bullet at centrefire rifle velocities.
Not long got my 300WM back with one of JR's 5R barrels. Not had chance to give it a proper test, BUT I got a couple of sub 1/4" 3 shot groups at 100yds using 180Gr Nosler Ballistic Tips which I put on some factory rounds after pulling the original bullets. Not bad for a 'hunting' bullet, eh? I don't think I can personally hold any better than that off a bi-pod and fist. Just think what they could do if properly load developed and shot from a bench with bags and rests and shit! ;-)
Will let you guys know how the barrel shapes up. What I can tell you already though is it cleans with just Hoppes No.9, patches and a bit of a frisk with one of those felt things Pete was on about. No more soaking and scrubbing with brushes. I think I'm in love!!!
I intend feeding it 155 Scenars. Had some VERY good results with RL22 and the Lapua 155s before I sent the barrel off to JR for replacing. Wasn't even a developed load, just burning off some excess stock before the new arrival. I had given up on the 155s after a poor performance using Vhit N560. Just picked a charge of RL22 out of the air (almost) and zeroed it at 100yds, then spent the rest of the ammo on rocks and 'stuff' out to 1585yds!!! With Exbal on the Palm it was like a laser beam out to 1000+yds with Exbal right on the money. Exbal not so reliable at the 1585yd rock though ;-) Interestingly it only shot 3/4" at 100yds when zeroing. Guess they weren't stabalising well at that range. They were doing about 3370fps (at least that was the velocity that they tracked with on the Palm), and were on the 'warm' side.
Cheers
Jon
Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 15:35:51 (ZULU)
Brogers
Friday, January 7, 2005, at 23:26:22 (ZULU)
Brogers
Friday, January 7, 2005, at 23:35:00 (ZULU)
I was just browsing the PX looking at stock options for a .338 RUM I want to put together. In looking at the H.S. Precision PST26F, which is the virtical grip fixed for a LA I noticed this note: "does not fit J lock system".
O.K., so what is up here? My understanding was that the J-lock was in the bolt and not in the action at all. If that is the case does anyone know why H.S. makes this statement?
If there is a problem with H.S. stock fit and J-lock Remington LA's are other makers stocks also subject to the same problem?
Tired and Confused!
Byron
CA, USA - Friday, January 7, 2005, at 23:44:26 (ZULU)
Just noticed a sendero stock listed on ebay... they have it mis-listed and it was still relatively cheap....I think I was seraching under "Remington Stock" and picked it out of the 5 page response
I'm looking for a short action one off a VSS
medicjim
Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 00:47:54 (ZULU)
I mounted it up on my sendero 300 mag but don't know when the weather will cooperate enough to try her out. I am pleased with it so far just viewing things in the field.
Ron
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 02:39:37 (ZULU)
The Sierra 180 Game Kings shoot excellent in my rifle (1:10" twist) and track very close to my 175SMK load. I would use the Game Kings in competition without a second thought. ;-)
Another good hunting bullet is the Combined Technology (Nosler) 168 grain ballistic silvertip. It also shoots very well (but costs a little more). ;-)
I tried the Hornady bonded bullet (165 grain) and it shot right at 1MOA (not as good). :-|
The Barnes 165 XBT shoots a consistent 3MOA in my rifle. :o{
Scott Smith
Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 02:42:40 (ZULU)
His opinion of Barnes, and any "pure copper jacket" bullet is pretty low. He has personally ruined barrels by shooting pure copper through 'em. The Copper literally welds itself to the steel and becomes impossible to remove with anything that won't remove the steel itself.
You know, there's a reason that arsenals went to guilding metal for jackets... came about around the time that velocities went over 2000fps, and its called metal fouling. My son has a 338 Win. barreled with a Douglas Premium barrel. He tried Scirocco and Barnes "X" both. Notwithstanding the fact that they were certainly accurate, the fouling was nothing short of atrocious after fewer than 20 rounds. Haven't seen anything like that since a severely pitted 303 barrel I had once...and even it cleaned up easier.
In big game hunting with so few shots in the offing (presumably), it may be that its not noticable, and there's little doubt about bullet performance... unless you're contemplating reeeeal long shots at big game, which is a sure sign of a failed hunt/hunter. I think bullet performance is a bit more "iffy" with the solid copper at impact velocities much below 2000fps.
Now with something like a 5R barrel, it may be better, and I know there are like opinions about JB for cleaning, but I ain't puttin no steenkin' pure copper down my tubes....most particularly if there's "sustained" (as in making barrels real hot) firing between cleanings in the forcast.
This might stir something up, but oh,well, that's what these forums are for...to learn something?
Steve
Butte, MT, USA - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 03:40:35 (ZULU)
Byron;;;The J Lock has a rounded rear receiver supposedly stiffer and stronger ...and a little bit different set up with the trigger housing I am guessing. I believe they just chose the J lock as a point to refer too as it's easier to see. Had some trouble changing a older model and a new one. Trigger way off to the side and something different about the inside of the stock. Didn't follow up on it to investigate completely but it just wouldn't fit right so I didn't bother with it.
Brogers
Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 05:16:14 (ZULU)
Haven't been on the list in a while, and it looks as though Sain hasn't been here lately either...
If you have rings to donate, man, we need them. More and more guys getting sticks with NO optics. Mounts, rings, you name it, it is needed...
www.adoptasniper.org , that will take you to AAS website, and ITEMS will give you mailing addresses for the shipping points. Thanks in advance.
Ref the coins, about as big of a hit as the POW/MIA type bracelets we've been selling. I have a feeling that the coins won't survive SHOT, so don't delay.
We've been busting butt trying to get things squared away for SHOT (booth 484, stop and say hello!) in Vegas, much like others on the DR.
Any questions, hit me on email at vljohnson@charter.net .
VJ
www.adoptasniper.org
Vaughn Johnson
WI, USA - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 06:54:08 (ZULU)
Been off list for a bit. Not much happening on this end. Was involved in an incident at work, so I have a few days off with pay while things get sorted out. I have no doubt I'll get a thumbs up and be back to work shortly. On the other hand the pay/no work thing I could get used too...
Match bullets for hunting. NO! I'll weigh in with Piggy Pete. Responsible hunters, with respect for the game, owe the game a speedy end. As noted there are a number of hunting bullets that perform very well out of our tactical guns or standard rifles. Use a properly constructed bullet and place it properly. Use big guns for big game. I use a 250 grain premium bullet in my .35 Whelan AI at 2,600 FPS. I call it the "hammer of thor".
Barnes Bullets: The "original" Barnes garnered a good reputation that was well deserved. If you can find these great. Barnes is still producing some. Barnes, unfortunately has been at the head of the "bullet of the week" development. Seems a "new" design or break through every time one turns around. His new bullet causes less friction, is super accurate, and doesn't foul like conventional bullets. No shit...pardon my french, but when you remove 30-50% of the bearing surface it'g going to have less friction.
During initial load development for the Whelan I tried some of the .358 X bullets. After a couple rounds I scratched my head...chrono results were LOW, but when I removed the bolt to check the bore I was astonished at how much copper fouling there was in the bore. Needless to say I still have the majority of the box, on the shelf. Let me know if you want them...
Ah, then there was the "proprietary" blue coating...you get my drift
While on the topic of bullets I am forming the opinion that boat-tails are NOT hunting bullets. That's all boat-tails. Frankly, withing a responsible range the flat based RN projectile gives up nothing to the boat-tail. That is until you get "out there".
On well known writer/hunter opined that "the way they sell the darn things you'ld think they were loading and shooting them backwards".
Was given four boxes of Hornady 275 Gr. RN's by a friend, recently. Can't wait to shoot them. The bullets are no long cataloged and are in old style boxes. I was pleased to get them. Now THERE is a "piggy" bullet, Pete!
Jaeger sling swivels. I have two sets that came on used guns. Extremely high quality, as you have noted. I have one set that's about 3/4" and another at 1" and love them. Sometimes there IS a silk purse in the sow's ear! Check those used rifles closely...
All for now. Prayers for our deployed service members and a big hand to those that are supporting them.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 07:57:14 (ZULU)
Glad some folks agree with my ethical approach to hunting with the right bullet, a game animal is to a magnificent creature to have suffer orto lose due to failed bullet performance.
Hell i only ever shoot hunting bullets, the last match type bullets i shot was about 3 years ago, the accuracy of the hunting bullets of today, even in factory loadings is the reason i haven't started hand loading yet. ive almost always been able to find a factory hunting load that would shoot well under an inch @100m with any of my rifles and many factory loads would do much better. I will get into hadn loading this year, it is one of my new years resolutions. I must do the darn Kraut required reloading course first though to remain legal.
Jon have you chrono'd the new barrel with your old loads yet? i bet you see an increase in velocity.
I was up the range yesterday finaly properly range testing the 9.3x62, now that the stock don't touch the barrel and the action is bedded itis safe to say that i am as happy as a pig in muck with it. I only treid 2 types of factory ammo so far in it, gecco/RWS and PMP. i doubt i will be trying many more. With the Gecco/RWS, which just happens to be the cheapest 9.3 factory loading i can get my hands on it was consistently printing 3 shot groups in a tight cloverleaf that measured 12mm centre to centre, now that, for a big ish caliber, factory round nosed soft point bullets is pretty darn good. The PMP was dropping into about an inch but at exactly the same point of impact, cold bore shot from a clean barrel was 2 inch low, i let the barrel cool completely between groups and the rest of the cold shots went into the group with the others, i'll have to figure that clean cold bore out and see what the thing likes. I'm chuffed to bits with the rifle and i will be interested to see what it will do out to about 350m, it will make a great Elk rifle, just wish we had some elk to use it on, we got some muntjak, maybe some one will let some elk out too..
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 11:04:10 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 11:10:24 (ZULU)
I shoot both a 45-70 and a 45-120. Both are High-Wall. I love it when the 45-120 goes off - you definitly know it ;)
I don't shoot black powder, cuz I hate the cleaning, and the corrosion that happens if you wait 'til "tomorrow".
CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 14:21:18 (ZULU)
Man, sure wish I could get an audience with Congress on supplying snipers (Would have to clean up my act). Ha !
RINGS:
VJ was right. Lotsa units using snipers these days. Old 14 being used all over the place. Issuing guys a 14 and ONE magazine AND THAT'S IT !
"Go forth my son and prosper ... you are now the company sniper ... Oh ... and don't ask me for shit"
Sheesh ... what the hell they tinkin'?
Listen to this shit ... heard yesterday that some higher ups are saying that by civilians supplying the guys, it is "messing up" the supply system. Meaning that if the guys don't ask for what they need, how are the supply guys supposed to KNOW what they need ?
Isn't that some REMF assed, ass covering horseshit or what? Typical ... meanwhile the guys are hunting their asses off w/ nada.
Gimme a break. If they HAD it, they wouldn't HAVE to ask for it. In almost every request we get, the guys have asked until they are blue in the face ... so I ain't buying that horsehit for a minute. I just look dumb ...
I have seen otherwise with my own eyes. Have the emails to prove it. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Some well meaning folks are apparently trying to fix the snipers problem from within the military. Never happen imho. Hasn't in 228 years anyway ...
Friggin' war will be over by then and they will forget about needing snipers AGAIN until somebody ELSE flies a fucking plane into a building. It is our history.
Heaven forbid an ego get bruised or a career path get in the way and feathers get ruffled. See it every day at work. Always comes at the men's expense.
There ARE some sniper friendly officers out there willing to lay their meat out on the table and damn the circumstances. SOMEBODY needs to change the stars for our snipers that's for sure ... so good on them. They need to streamline that procurement shit because the system is just like a beached perch flopping on the bank as it stands.
As for me, I am nobody within anybody's system. Career path and child support are pretty well set. I answer only to Bruce Robinson, God, the old lady and the IRS (Not neccessarily in that order).
I don't have time to try and fix all of that military stuff. I got guys in the sand doing the deed that need shit NOW.
We sent 21 Leica LRF out two weeks ago. $ 10,000 DOLLARS worth.
Sending 15 SAGE M14 stocks fully loaded with rails and bipods out next week. $13,125.00 dollars.
14 Leupold spotting scopes with dots (those badass ones) next week.
$ 7,000 dollars ...
... and Brownells sure digs us too for all of the cleaning stuff we buy monthly. That's just the tip of the iceberg too fellas ...
So if you have some combat worthy rings you wanna send ... we'll sure as hell take 'em. Or if some of you guys want to get together and just do a sniper country purchase from Marty for a few sets for AAS that would work too.
GIZMO (from here on the list) is in theater right now. He has 10 14s that need rings, mounts and optics ... 10. That is one platoon. We are currently supporting 99 platoons in theater and have had 22 platoons return home already. Do the math ...
So please pimp for U.S. every chance you guys get. Corporate support rocks !
LOTS been given from here when Bruce was around (and otherwise as well) ... so NO PRESSURE from me/VJ. We just stay really busy and I can't always stop in to visit like I used to.
"Just pimpin for my hos" ... as they say here in the 'hood. lol
Best guys. Gotta roll ...
Thanks for the bandwith Marius/Ken/Sarge.
BK
brian k. sain
Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 14:37:01 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney, incoming, 3 attachments, clean.
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 15:05:59 (ZULU)
Brian, Glad "Gizmo" got hooked up" with you. Good man. He, I, and KM used to shoot weekly. I'll see what I have in the "hopper" in the line of rings. What about bases? What is prefered?
M-14 mags...now THERE is one item I would have thought there would be plenty of...will look. Know I have a few extra(still in the wrap)that could find a use "over there".
Brian, I know you do this out of love toward your brother snipers, but I want to say thanks. You obviously have the contacts, etc., to make this happen. We are ALL in your debt, compadre (and you thought I didn't know spanish).
Hope you get your day before congress. Someone needs to correct the the system and make sure it doesn't happen again. Of course it will...the "other" guy will be responsible...prepare three letters...;-)
Pete, sounds like your new pig thumper is a winner. Congrats! Be careful, Mr. Pig may put you on the most wanted list! Almost built a 9.3 x 62 when I did my Whelan. Stumped for the .35 Whelan Ackley Imp. version...more out of historical nature of the round, development, etc. Can't wait to work up the load for the 275 gr Hornady's.
Pete, Give Sellier & Bellot a try. Believe they're making some good hunting loads. For you 7 x 57mm shooters(ok, the .275 Rigby for you Brits)try thier heavy bullet load. It's 173-175 grain(can't remember which)bullet which looks like the old German TUG. Performs like it, too. We chrono'd these and they are hot. No wimp loads here. My hunting partner used one to take a beautiful blacktail buck this year. Bullet penetrated well and was recovered along the spine. Expanded to about .625" and the core stayed with the jacket. Although it fell out when removed from the deer. Accurate? damn things want to cut one ragged hole at 100 yards. The best part is it's only about $8.00 USD per 20 round box!
All for now. Today is garage clean up and organization day. Have to figure out how to situate all the gun stuff I have from storage, what I want to tear out/rebuild, AND where I can situate the lathe. Paint me a happy camper.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 17:18:18 (ZULU)
BTW--this assumes that the commanders at company, battalion and brigade all see the need for sniper-specific items in the first place---which we all know is too often NOT the case. Hell, why should they spend all that money on a few kids' spotting scopes and other high-price gear when they can spend the same and get all the clerks camel backs and have some left over for their cell phone bill? That is sadly the shit that doth happen. And that is before the Log weenies even get to say no (or involved, if you can call it that)! Yeah....you are on to something here. Fuck the detractors Brian, and full speed ahead!
All who expect email from me: I am outta the net. Atlanta seems to be a nice place to log time when the temps fall below 20 degrees. Heheh.
Joe M
Joe Mahon
Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 18:41:34 (ZULU)
I realize most of us don't watch 60 Minutes normally, but if you're not busy this weekend one of their "Issues" will be the .50 caliber rifle. I received this email from Ronnie Barrett, owner of Barrett Firearms, Inc. A lot of the program by 60 Minutes was filmed at Barrett Mfg and Ronnie Barrett served as the spokesman for our sport and industry. Might be worth watching. Responses from the sport shooting community might also be appropriate afterwards.
John Burtt
FCI
On the H.S. - J-lock issue the only other info I have received is that because of the longer bolt shroud the stock comb may be to high and not allow the bolt to be removed but still nothing for certain.
There doesn't seem to be any difference in the SA's because my SCLE, which originally had the J-lock, isn't any different than any of my other SA's.
Later,
Byron
CA, USA - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 18:54:22 (ZULU)
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 21:05:06 (ZULU)
BK
brian k. sain
Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 22:11:10 (ZULU)
Just another bit of loading frustration! Bolt out!
Bolt
NC, - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 22:41:46 (ZULU)
What about flush cup swivels? There was a fellow who ended up dropping his rifle when a swivel released, so I have been going back and forth between regular studs and Wichita fixed heavy duty units. Comments and advice appreciated, and thanks.
Jerry
Red River Country , MN, USA - Saturday, January 8, 2005, at 23:36:50 (ZULU)
Jerry; I have adjustable on my Tikka its stays on the bottom all time and the Eagle Pad is almost too high. I prefer the Eagle cause in these Plains termperatures out here I'd just as soon not freeze my cheek to the stock. Just goin by.......thought I'd toss it in.
Brogers
Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 00:41:05 (ZULU)
Decided to double check the alignment of the scope to vertical on my .223, then mounted a level to let me stay consistant. What idiot decided to put allen heads on the bottom of the level? After I confirm the scope tracks correctly, will have to change those out to torx screws. Also made the shattering discovery that one of my ex-wives may be right-I do look at the world differently, just never had that level to realize it.
WR Moore
Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 02:12:48 (ZULU)
The present crop of studs is nowhere near being adequate. They are laughable on Remingtons and most of the other American makes. If you add the weight and stress of a Harris (you'd think the manuf would be aware that might happen these days and respond)during firing other than with legs extended. If you are forced down and have to put the harris (still folded) in a position to fire.. not to mention that it might be touching the tree limb or whatever. These new caliber's and magnums will sheer off the stud easily.
This needs corrected by all the manuf.
Hopefully European designs are better. You could pull a truck with my Tikka stud.
Brogers
Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 02:30:59 (ZULU)
Jerry
Red River Country, MN, USA - Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 03:15:53 (ZULU)
I have a USGI M14 fiberglass stock & HG I purchased from Fred's and a USGI M14 magazine. I think I have some graphite too.
If any of this can be utilized "over there" Let me know and I will help you make it happen.
Thanks for the support you give them.
Ron
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 04:01:21 (ZULU)
I recently put an A5 on my SCLE rifle and I don't think it needs an adjustable cheekpiece (40mm scope). When I clean it the rod just barely clears the top of the stock so it's quite high already.
That could just be me though because I don't like adjustable things usually. I like my stuff lean with as few "failure points" as possible or anything that might "adjust" itself at the wrong time. Never liked having all kinds of accessories and clip on crap that won't take a fall.
Marc
MarcS
CV, CA, - Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 04:30:23 (ZULU)
Brian, 100 Platoons! Wow...and no one is investigating why this is happening? Old story, if everyone thinks everything is OK, then it is...reality not withstanding.
Your place must look like the Main Supply Area(MSA) for a Marine Air/Ground Task Force(MAGTF). Let's see, where did we put the ammo dump?
Came across a new M1A bipod in my gear. Do you want me to send it to you along with the mags or send it directly to Gizmo?
Bolt, I noted the same thing with the SMK's. Ogives are not consistent which makes the OAL vary. All this makes me wonder WHY they shoot so well? Inquiring minds...anyone want to take that on?
Joe M. Your comments about supply made me think of the old adage we had of "why die, go supply". Same old story. The guys at the front get squat while the REMF's get new boots, hydra-storm water pacs, uniforms, etc. Heck, for DS/DS I got my desert boots when we were in retrograde. Even then they were a size to big...
Seen this before. That's why I took my own ammo in country because they weren't issueing it yet(you'll get it when you need it). No big deal. After a few days your uniforms all look like desert camo.
Pete L.: e-mail headed your way with 2 attachments. Should be clean.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 07:02:20 (ZULU)
I dimly recall Sierra claiming that concentricity was the most important factor in accuracy.
WR Moore
Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 09:10:27 (ZULU)
I've got an A5 on my 260, and like Marc said it does set high.
Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 10:57:59 (ZULU)
Concentrickery, errr concentrationery, eerrrrrrr, same-same round the circleness! Yeah, if that is important....then don't go lookin' at a recent batch of MKs' ogives---hooo-boy; are they outta sorts! Made the mistake of using an inspection glass before christmas---and thought I somehow "chambered" all twenty in a box! They wuz all kinds of crooked!
Joe Mahon
Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 13:53:32 (ZULU)
Wes ... if it's okay ...
Since Gizmo McCrary is "One of our own" here at SC ... let's coordinate this thing.
Anybody that has M14 related stuff, magazines, etc. ... please send it to Wes. Wes can ship direct to Gizzy. If you need money Wes, lemme know. Hit me offline if you do not have his current APO address.
He's got 10 shooters guys so if you ever wanted to help but just haven't yet ... now's the time.
Cold there now. Many guys left in summer when it was hot. Remember the Germans at Stalingard? No cold weather stuff.
Guys are hunting IED/Mortar crews at night. A pair of wool Remington hunting socks at Walmart are 8 bucks a pair ... fold back mittens/fingerless gloves, Sportsmans Guide GI ECWS balaclavas and tops/bottoms are starvation cheap ...
Best,
BK
www.adoptasniper.org
brian k. sain
Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 18:18:46 (ZULU)
Jerry
Red River Country, MN, USA - Sunday, January 9, 2005, at 18:52:45 (ZULU)
Have a question that some of you AI owners and afficianados may know. I have a AI coopermatch, single shot match rifle. I'm wondering if the bolt pieces from the AI sniper rifles fit the match rifles. Specificlly, the firing pin, cocking pieces (I'd like a spare) and the changeable bolt heads.
My intent is to use this rifle as a switch barrel. It's already a 6.5x284 (that makes 4 in the safe,, damn) and I would also like to try it in 300WM, and 6XC. 6XC won't be an issue, but 300WM will obviuolsy need the magnum bolt head.
Any info you can pass along about inter-changability would be great.
For anyone interested in one of these single shot Coppermatch AI's, I know a guy selling one with a 30" long 1:13 twist palma barrel and a non-laminated hardwood (walnut I belive) stipled stock for less than $1900. If you want me to put you in touch with the seller, hit me at sweepman@tds.net.
FatBoy...
Chris
Monday, January 10, 2005, at 01:13:28 (ZULU)
Warren County Rifle Club
Match Results
Jan 9, 2005 Long Range
Shooters,
Today WCRC held it’s first long range match of 2005. This was a non-approved NRA prone match. We had a great turn out, with 30 shooters coming out from three different states. We started a little late, as a MP unit was qualifying, but it’s a small price to get these fine soldiers trained up.
The match started at 11:40AM CST and ended at 4:05PM CST. The weather started out at about 45*F with a light and variable 3 to 5 MPH wind. Only a pit flag was used today, but mirage was up and running strong. As normal with AEDC, the range didn’t have a full value wind, and little wind was needed most of the day. By the time the final shot went down range, the temp had raised to about 65*F, and wind had maintained steady 3 to 5MPH most of the day. Sun was up with little, if any clouds in the sky, and the targets were bring by 1PM. All in all, it was a perfect day to be in a shooting jacket.
We had eight new shooters today. WCRC would like to thank both Frank Van Cleave and Campbell Boyd for bringing out and entire relay. Your dedication to long range and bringing shooters into the sport is un-matched. Some of the scorecards were not turned in, so the scores are incomplete, but the shooters are listed in the results.
We would like to thank all the shooters for coming out today and making this another successful match. There were a couple snags, but overall it seemed everyone had a good time and it kicked the ’05 season off right! The next match WCRC is holding is a 50 shot Across the Course match. It will be help January 16th at AEDC. Registration is 9AM, shooting starts at 10AM CST. Hope to see some of you on the line.
Chris Hayes...
Name Match 1 Match 2 Agg Class Caliber
Luttrell, Tommy 199-12 200-10 399-22 F Open 300WM
Edge, Adam 196-8 197-9 393-17 F Open 6.5x284
Awalt, Mike 195-4 195-7 390-11 F Open 30-06
Graham, Randy 193-6 195-6 388-12 F Open 6BR
Tye, Josh 193-8 188-7 381-15 F Open ?
Graham, Gene DNF 200-8 200-8 F Open 6.5x284
Awalt, Eli FamFire F Open 30-06
Money, Chip NO CARD TURNED IN - DNF F Open ?
Hartum, Richard NO CARD TURNED IN - DNF F Open ?
Duliba, Tommy NO CARD TURNED IN - DNF F Open ?
Uithoven, Gary 195-7 194-10 389-17 F T/R 308WIN
Boyd, Campbell 191-4 190-3 381-7 F T/R 308WIN
Kreier, Tim 192-4 186-3 378-7 F T/R 308WIN
Mora, Danny 190-6 180-1 370-7 F T/R 308WIN
Farrell, Brad 176-2 191-3 367-5 F T/R 308WIN
Bacilieri, Riccardo 170-1 159-1 350-2 F T/R 308WIN
Grammer, Steven 192-10 192-2 284-12 F T/R 308WIN
Castillo, Lee FamFire F T/R 308Win
Forshee, Wayne 197-9 199-11 396-20 Any Rifle 243Win
Tedders, Sam 196-6 195-9 392-11 Any Rifle 6.5x284
Forshee, Cindy 191-4 199-11 389-15 Any Rifle 6.5x284
Nail, Rusty 191-3 196-8 387-11 Any Rifle 6.5x284
Milsapp, Tracey 191-3 196-6 387-9 Any Rifle 300WSM
Hayes, Chris 197-9 188-3 385-12 Any Rifle 6.5x284
Canady, Billy 192-4 188-3 380-3 Any Rifle 30-338
Rausch, Mike 174-3 182-3 356-6 Any Rifle 223Rem
Pitts, Howard 171-3 179-4 350-7 Any Rifle 223Rem
Morris, Jeff DNF-ammo 193-5 193-5 Any Rifle 6.5x284
Chris
Monday, January 10, 2005, at 02:53:08 (ZULU)
Email me off line
Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Monday, January 10, 2005, at 05:01:56 (ZULU)
I've noticed you have referenced your Tikka several times recently on here. I am seriously considering the Tikka T3 lite(probably in 270 wsm) for a lightweight, reasonably priced hunting piece. Any advice, for or against making this purchase?
JohnBechtell
MT, - Monday, January 10, 2005, at 16:40:46 (ZULU)
I have a scope mount for a M1-A that I am not using, if you could use it I will be glad to send it to you. I have a set of 1" rings for it that are just the leupold for weaver style bases that go with it if you need. Also have some Leupold dual dove tail set ups for Remington 700s if you can use them, let me know an thanks again for what your doing!!
Pat
Monday, January 10, 2005, at 17:35:55 (ZULU)
Clay
Clay Goret
BFE, NM, USA - Monday, January 10, 2005, at 18:42:46 (ZULU)
I have an extra ARMs mount that came off my M1A. In fact I have 2 sets. Would it be useful to the program? I'll gladly send them, just tell me where. I have the rings too of course. Its a great program you've got going. I'm also going to donate money.
Doug
doug sickels
Monday, January 10, 2005, at 18:55:55 (ZULU)
Things been slow, got attacked by a donkey cart borne IED the day before yesterday. All good, no casualties or damage, but blew donkey gore all over truck #4. Kinda funny, in retrospect. Gotta run. S/F...Ken M
Ken M
Monday, January 10, 2005, at 19:25:02 (ZULU)
SFC Pete Carpentier JR TXNG
C.C., TX, USA - Monday, January 10, 2005, at 19:36:26 (ZULU)
Anyone going to SHOT please stop by our booth # 1230 in the LE section. You might get to see Brian Sain do a traffic stop...
Best Regards,
Kasey
5db
ICTA, KS, USofA - Monday, January 10, 2005, at 20:03:30 (ZULU)
First of all thanks to you guys donating your own kit. Stuff ain't cheap and don't we know it ...
Please send all M14 related stuff to our own Deputy Doug here at:
Doug Bourdo
601 - 70th Street
Kenosha, WI 53143
Doug will get the goods to Gizmo.
Wes and Fireman Ron are sending some stuff of their own. Didn't want to weigh them down too much. Doug will be shipping using AAS funds.
Thanks for the nice stuff you guys said about the coins.
I am kinda proud of 'em. They are going fast.
BK
www.adoptasniper.org
brian k. sain
Monday, January 10, 2005, at 22:03:37 (ZULU)
Tikkas with stainless barrels have been rapidly disassempling themselves. Check the facts before you buy. This may or may not apply to the particular rifle you are considering:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156955
Mike
BMG Mike
AUSTX, - Monday, January 10, 2005, at 23:08:50 (ZULU)
Let me give you my impression if the others will bear with me.
1. The stock. Is heavy but attractive and has a adjustable comb, excellent butt plate (rounded a bit) and has inverted notches for the Bi pod fits a v notch and sling will do either side or bottom. It extends and covers the magazine and magazine release completely. You could love or hate the last feature. I'm kind of neutral on it.
2. The Bolt. Smooth as glass and works like a Mauser although is obviously better in lock time. Superb, as is the Bolt release. Super.
3. The Barrel I know not much about except that it cleans easily and seems flawless as far as I can tell. 100 yd groups are same hole and 1MOA is the rule out to 500 with just about anything you put in it.
Same hole at 100 is common.
4. The magazine is single stack 5 rounds on the .308 ,,made of steel and works precisely. The spring took a little bending to be sure to pick up the last round every time. It does and that's important because the operation is so smooth you can't feel it pick up. The magazine is costly but it's protected and the latch is precise and positive land can be easily released by either hand from the driver or passenger side and the clip be dropped into either hand as it falls out. The release is recessed and almost impossible to drop a clip by accident. The only negative is that the rifle should be in vertical position (normal) to drop the clip and it's hard to pull out if the rifle is barrel up or upside down but not unduly so.
5. Trigger is excellent and simple one screw adjustment will yield about any pull you want safely without any problem. The only negative is that there is no overtravel stop. I would prefer one but it doesn't enter the picture since the trigger has no travel or creep at any setting.
6. Safety is 3 position like all good rifles today only it's sweet like everything else on the piece.
7. Hand position is mentionable since it is perfect for me at least either sitting or prone or bench rest, standing or whatever. I've never had a rifle like that before.
8. Did I say this rifle is heavy? 13 lbs with bi-pod, Mk IV scope and eagle stock pack. Only negative I can find with the way it handles is that forend is a little boxy and feels a bit like square lumber to the forward hand.
I'm thinking if I were looking for a Hunting only rifle I'd have to evaluate it separately but I'd look at a Savage late frame first but for what I use the Tikka for it's excellent. I would have to check out a T-3 before I settled though. I love this bar!
Brogers
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 01:55:45 (ZULU)
Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 04:31:14 (ZULU)
BK Sain
brian k. sain
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 04:33:23 (ZULU)
Brogers
Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 05:04:38 (ZULU)
It would take alot of force to flip a Bradley. I wonder just how small a package they could put that kind of power into.
Marc
MarcS
CV, CA, - Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 05:37:01 (ZULU)
I am sorry to hear about your foster son.
VJ
Vaughn Johnson
WI, - Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 05:55:41 (ZULU)
With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
America mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.
Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.
They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond America's foam.
But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;
As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.
Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:05:03 (ZULU)
I can't speak for everyone with a son, but everytime I hear of someone losing a son or daughter, I get a pain in my heart that only someone with a child can know. You are in our prayers.
Pete,
That was excellent.
Spent a couple hours with the AR10 on Sat comparing reloads to m118lr at 100 yds. I'm close but the ES and SD's are horrible on both. I bought some WLP to try in place of the Rem. 9.5's. More later/
John
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 09:25:46 (ZULU)
You and yours have my deepest sympathy and will be in my prayers.
Pete,
That was excellent. Please pardon my ignorance; but who wrote it? If that's yours, then you're in the wrong business.
Doc
Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 14:52:18 (ZULU)
Bolt,
Yuz can always buy GDT's "Meplat uniforming tool" to get all them boolits the same length...
Have a friend here who shoots NRA VERY well, (3rd at Perry 2 years ago...) who swore by Noslers for a while because when they made match boolits, all boolits in a box were punched out on the same die, whereas Sierra uses a bnch of dies and they all flow together. I don't know if Nosler is still doing this now that they don't use J-4 jackets and are puching out their own now...
Peter, You've had good luck on deer size game with Nosler balistic tips? What calibers? I've seen quite a few where the bullet did NOT perform as advertized when puched with .30 cals. Now, .224 55grainiers light up a prairie dog!!!
M-14 scope mount, rings and other goodies will be in the mail tomorrow. GET SOME!!!
T
Caison
Dela-Where?, - Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 19:57:38 (ZULU)
johnb
mt, - Tuesday, January 11, 2005, at 20:48:00 (ZULU)
DoubleTap
IN, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 02:00:05 (ZULU)
Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 02:17:50 (ZULU)
I looked into the meplat thingie. I still don't understand it.
If you are removing copper to make them all the same length, you are also removing copper weight. Which in turn to my small brain cavity would be worse, cause you would then have to weigh every friggin bullet and NONE of them would be 175's anymore. Sooooo, you end up in a worse sitiation that you were to begin with.
NO MAS, NO MAS! MAKE IT STOP MOMMY!!!!!!
Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 02:39:30 (ZULU)
Has any one heard anything lately about the Marine filmed (insurance) capping the bad guy?
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 03:32:22 (ZULU)
Goddies are on the way to help them boys hunt.
Thanks for the chance to help.
Ron
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 04:05:43 (ZULU)
as does Hornady. Either one shoots as well as SMK and exhibits less flaws. The use of it more or less negates the need for 175 gr. bullets as far as keeping above the sound barrier. Groups are as good or better at 1K in everything I've tried them in.
You will need to reduce elevation for them as they do shoot higher(3moa) and wind is 1moa less at longer ranges by this amount. The Speers are a little more expensive than Sierra.
I would not want to trim length of bullets to assure uniformity of length. Uniformity of weight would be more important if I understand what's been suggested here.
Brogers
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 04:09:11 (ZULU)
Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 10:44:14 (ZULU)
I’ve read volumes of posts about reloading and bullets where guys are trying to squeeze that last 0.10 inch from their 100 yard groups and frankly I just don’t get it.
I can’t fully exploit the capabilities of my systems now. I am the limiting factor to better performance. A slightly better load isn’t going to make enough difference for me to turn a miss into a hit. After I’ve compensated for density altitude, estimated the distance, guessed at the wind and taken up the best possible field position the difference between sub ½ moa loads would seem to get lost in the noise.
I might be wrong here but once your system is shooting sub minute of angle isn’t any further load development “much ado about nothing”? I realize that theoretically that at 1,000 yards reducing normal dispersion by 0.10 moa should keep the rounds one inch closer to the point of aim but who can hold that well anyway?
Frankly, my stuff shoots ¾ moa and I’m happy with it. If I go changing my loads then my previously collected data becomes less useful.
Tell me where I’m wrong here.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 12:52:27 (ZULU)
I don't believe you are wrong at all. People get wrapped around LCCDI (looks cool chicks dig it) gadgets and reloading going for that "same hole" group, IMHO, to make up for their shortcomings in the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. LCCDI stuff won't make em a better shooter. Taking ammunition to the range, in all types of weather situations, and shooting, doesn't matter if it is .75 MOA ammo or .3 ammo, WILL make them better shooters. Going back to lurk mode, in bunker, waiting incoming.
Edited to add:
Once you have developed a load that is CONSISTENT, GO Shoot. Get to know that round, yourself, and your rifle!
Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 14:24:31 (ZULU)
Is it optical correction? Hardly ever because you didn't move the scope. Is it bullet speed. Hardly ever more than just a few fps say 5 or 10 is acceptable and probably the limit of possibility. On the other hand velocity changes of 35 to 75 fps. make calculations of elevation and windage difficult at 1K.
I'ma trying to think of a way to confirm this by your ballistic program. probably the best way is not to use a zero setting but just figure bullet drop. When you have determined the normal drop at 100 just decrease of increase the speed enough to cause a .5 change at 100 yards in bullet drop. Using a 100 yard or other yardage zero will not yeild the correct result.
Brogers
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 14:27:30 (ZULU)
To play devils advocate for a moment, while I agree with you all, it seems to me it's the same relationship as the stalk to within 200 yards to the FFP. Why? You're not gonna catch me gettin that close to a target. Because IF you can do THAT, edit: from that range you have a better chance of a. 1st round hit, b. e and e successfully back to RP and c. confidence in your abilities from 800 yards. I'm sure there are other reasons as well but I see similarities in both endeavors.
John
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 15:06:38 (ZULU)
Jim
JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 15:29:39 (ZULU)
zac
ut , - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 16:07:45 (ZULU)
Thanks in advance.
Scott
Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 16:33:33 (ZULU)
Guys get more trigegr time and you will get more out of it than all the ammo massage you can do.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller
CA, - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 18:25:53 (ZULU)
Brogers
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 21:28:05 (ZULU)
I'm with you 100%, but the guys that shoot matches regularly are always going to strive for that last .10"
I think it has a ton to do with making sure the nut behind the trigger is well broken in and tight! Consistancy is a two way street, if your load is consistant, fine and dandy, but if the aforementioned trigger nut is a bit loose or rusted, the 3/4 moa load ain't gonna cut it. That being said, my trigger nut could always use a bit more oiling, as I never get enough range time!
Marius,
Tried emailing a few times over the holidays, but it kept bouncing back to me. Might be bad on my end, some of Karel's emails bounced back to me as well. Karel is coming to visit with me in February if you need anything from here, like light weight .30 cal bullets to light load for the kids. I'm gonna send back one of those CamelBack bladders for your pack as well with him. Let me know of anthing else you may need or want. Thanx for the translations as well, my Afrikaans just plain stinks, but hey, I'm trying! ;)
Rob
Robert Martin
Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 23:23:09 (ZULU)
I have to agree to a certain point with the comments concerning squeezing everything you can from a round and it's usefulness. Basically, I believe that you have to remove as much equipment factor as you can to determine what the human factor acutally is and how to improve it. However, I look at it a different way as follows.
EQUIPMENT FACTOR:
I believe that you need to try to get the maximum from all of your equipment. It really doesn't matter how fancy, how expensive or high tech the equipment is. For instance, I can only afford a factory rifle right now. My overall accuracy is limited by it's ability to shoot better than a custom rifle. I use the best scope and mounts that I can afford.
AMMUNITION FACTOR:
I use the best equipment to load ammo that I can afford. I try to use the best components to load the ammo. I am a newbie reloader but I still want to get every bit of accuracy that I can from my ammo.
HUMAN FACTOR:
Once you are confident that your equipment (again whatever equipment you have) is performing to the best of its ability, YOU are the only factor left that affects your accuracy. I read a million times that you need to shoot more to increase your abilities. I totally agree HOWEVER, most of us are limited by the amount of time we have to shoot. I can only shoot on the weekends, because the range is only open on the weekends. I am damn lucky to be able to shoot 2 weekends a month. I can dry fire at the house during the week, but that just ain't the same as shooting. So, I use my weeknights to develop my ammunition so that when I go to the range, I know that everything BUT me is as good as it can be.
CATCH TWENTY TWO:
You may be the best shot in the world, but if your equipment isn't up to your ability your accuracy potential is dimenished. Conversely, you may have the best equipment in the world but if you aren't up to it's ability, the accuracy potential of the equipment is dimenished. I think shooting is a compromise of equipment and shooter.
Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 23:39:16 (ZULU)
Let's fire for effect one more time. Typical .308 Win/NATO path.
table shows that a velocity difference of 100 fps = 3.8MOA @1000yds.
This would require about 15 clicks to compensate for between shots. range vel. drop W@ 10mph
0 2656.1 -1.5 -0.0
100 2476.7 -0.0 0.7
1000 1223.2 -394.7 99.2
0 2756.3 -1.5 -0.0
100 2572.5 -0.0 0.7
1000 1273.8 -361.9 94.1
Now consider that 15 quarter inch clicks would move your impact @ 100 yards 3.8 MOA.
But wait, you did not move it (your scope turret) at all so you bullet is only .38" off at 100 yards. Therefore your group is only .38" for the two shots.
But wait. The windage is 5" different at 1000. So if you moved 38" down and 5" horizontal the 1000 yard group is 45" for the two shots @ 1000 yds.
That translates to 4.5 MOA @ 1000 yards and .35 MOA (.35 inches) at 100 yards.
The purpose to all this is to illustrate that .35 MOA at 100 yards does not translate to .35 MOA at 1000 if velocity is the reason for the group size variation. Others factors will add or subtract from this estimate.
The moral of the story is that you must have your velocity very tight at long range or your groups will scatter. But this is not readily revealed at 100 yard shooting distances.
My conclusion is that you must strive for very tight 100 yard groups and also strive for very tight velocity or your long range groups will suffer more than you might expect.
For speculation purposes. Let's assume your rifle will shoot .5 moa and you can hold .25 moa for say .75MOA overall 2 shot group.
If the .75 is added to the 40.5 inches at 1K then you are at 47.5 inches. If the factors oppose you are still at 33" at 1K.
Add a little wind shift you can't predict and your way out of the black.
brogers
Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 00:53:13 (ZULU)
Entries are now open for SniperQuest05, June 10-12, 2005!! We are honored to once again hold this event at BadLands! For information you can visit the BadLands website. We will be having a BBQ brisket dinner on Saturday evening during this competition.
Brogers and Bolt,
Good posts! Now let's take this a little further. How many people that can shoot .5 MOA groups at 100 or even a 1000 yards, can do the same in a FIELD environment, not on a manicured firing range with wind flags, etc? No flame intended towards anyone. This is what I like about this webpage, you ask a question and you get answers from people that have actually done it, and not an answer from a ballistics program!
Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 01:10:50 (ZULU)
Bobby, that depends. Is the wind up? Am I shooting into bad glare conditions? Am I shooting over irregular terrain conditions, and possibly water?
Am I tired and sore? Am I shooting off of my field shooting mat (i.e. none) and lying in cow pies and stickers? Am I possibly a little dehydrated?
Oh, wait, you said field conditions. Yup, I'm not as good then as on a nice KD range and calm and relazed, with all the goodies I don't have to carry on my back.
Good deal, will be looking forward to SQ05. Another opportunity to learn more.
John L
Mid, MO, U.S.A. - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 03:10:23 (ZULU)
Brogers
Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 03:25:09 (ZULU)
GUILTY as charged, my group at a comp last year was pathetic, I just stood there in disbelief at just how bad one little rock disrupted my aim.... been working on it.
medicjim
Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 03:52:17 (ZULU)
Rob Opp
Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 04:06:09 (ZULU)
I read your post with interest. I haven't posted anything on the Roster in a long time, but I thought I'd give it a try once more.
I completed the police academy in April of 2004 after 31 weeks of training.
My PD has their own academy. There are three other PD's here in KY that have their own academy including the State Police, and our's is the longest. It had enough stress built into it that nobody could say for sure if they'd make it or not. Instead of getting easier after a while, it got tougher. The better you got, the more they demanded.
The list of applicants for my class numbered about 400 or so. 29 of us were selected to begin the academy. We had one quit after day one, and another quit at the end of the first week. We lost two more over the next four months.
We lost three more during the 12 week FTO phase.
Our PD uses Glock pistols exclusively. Our class spent the first three weeks of November at the range during firearms qualifications. 12 hour days were typical, and it was stressful. You did not walk anywhere, anytime. The only time we stopped training was when lightning was too near for safety. Many in our class had never fired any kind of weapon prior to the academy. With a couple of exceptions they were among the best shooters in the class. Nobody shot a perfect 300, but we had lots of scores in the 290's.
Recruits each averaged about 5,000 rounds fired during the three week period. If somebody was trying, and needed personal attention, they got whatever the instructors thought would help. Anything from FATS, to one on one after hours.
At the end of the last week of qualifications nobody thought it was fun anymore. If it rained hard the night before we'd have to shovel the sand back onto the berm for a couple of hours before we could shoot. Everyone's hands were a mess from the cold, and constant shooting drills. We must have bought 100 rolls of athletic tape before we were done. And God help us if anybody showed up at morning formation with a bit of mud on their boots. We only made that error once.
We do quarterly qualifications, but since we qualify with duty weapons and other weapons seperately (off-duty, rifle, and shotgun), it gets spread out so we actually end up shooting some kind of qualification every month.
But my Sgt. held range training on a volunteer basis so we got some extra training offered by members of our ERU (SWAT)in addition to the mandatory qualifications.
Of course we spent the rest of time with academic studies in various courses, and some fun stuff too. The driving courses were a hoot. We had three seperate driving courses during the academy.
I have about 7 weeks left on probation, and so far it looks like I will make it. It's been almost a year since I was sworn in. We swear in about six weeks prior to graduation.
I forgot to mention that one of the things in your post that got my attention other than the discussion about shooting was the mention of age. I was an old man when I was hired (53). I was always physically active so the running, and PT wasn't that bad for me.
I have been in the military twice. I shot more ammo in three weeks of police training than I ever did during nine years in the military. (That ain't right in my opinion)
Best regards,
Bill (Pappy)
Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:20:15 (ZULU)
David Hornsby
Bedford, Texas, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:43:06 (ZULU)
Problem with a ballistics program is that it is a model. Models are only as good as the code and parameters plugged in. Models are great tools, then there is reality.
Tight groups at 100 are not the best indicator of shooting well at 1K in my opinion. I've seen lots of rifle/ammo combinations that shot great at 100 and started losing it about 600 yards. Key is to find where the barrel harmonics are happy and match powder to located harmonic node so that the ES is low.
FCS
FCS
Central , NM, - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 06:26:39 (ZULU)
Bal programs; To me they are the best indicator of what you can't stretch your system beyond. If the Bal. Says no way, you saved some time. If reality bears it out then you win for the time being.
Back many ago, I was a happy camper at 100 or 200 yards. Then later happiness was a 5" group at 4 or 500 with an occasion hit on the appliance box at 800. That was good until I met the big Red K.(not so long ago). Now things that were insignificant at anything under 800 are crutial. Fortunately most people don't have access to a thousand yards of madness. When the carboard goes to 1k then it's WTF? Time.
Story time. Had a .300 SAUM in Sendero. Bad medicine out to a K. many 9 and a few 4" 5 shotters out there. But things would always start good and end in frustration. One day it dawned on me that the thing would shoot 12 to 15 rounds and then go to pot (3MOA) until it was throughly cleaned. Reality... the Jacket wash and the extra powder wasn't worth the effort. Back to the trusty .308 and the 1.5 MOA but it will be shooting 1.5 when the contest is over. Some would have not made that decision but I'd rather know what I have.
Brogers
Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 13:06:14 (ZULU)
Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 14:17:08 (ZULU)
Robert
Leupold Golden Ring®
Binoculars
We're extremely excited to introduce a line of full-size Golden Ring binoculars. They feature the same Index Matched Lens SystemTM as our famed VX-III riflescopes and super-high reflection, phase coated prisms for an image that is astonishing in its clarity, brightness, and color fidelity.
tschiemer
ark, usa - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 15:07:14 (ZULU)
Brogers, we agree to a point. I dont just throw ammo together. I just dont do the full BR crap to it.
This is what I do for 1000 yard shooting:
Full length size brass
All brass same lot
Debur flash hole
Chamfer inside and outside case mouth
clean case and primer pocket
Hand weigh each charge.
Make all rounds just short enough to run in M14 mags (remember my ammo has to work in all my weapons)
This has gotten me extreme spreads(depending on load work) of as little as 8 fps over ten rounds, but most run right around 15-20 fps extreme spread and that is better than anyone I know can shoot at 1000 yards anyway.
Bobbie, shot many groups in field like conditions under .50moa but would not want to count on it when I was being hunted.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 15:14:22 (ZULU)
Hmmm, "boiling blood", NOT gonna go there. However, there is a certain satisfaction when you piss off someone who needs it badly...;-)
Ballistic Programs/Models. Have used them for years. They are getting better, but generally have a "standard" they use. Some allow tweaking of parameters, a bit, but still are not reality. Case in point...my .308 bolt gun load shows 2,650 FPS using a 175 gr SMK. The program said use 16.5 MOA at 600 yards. Reality was that it only took 15 MOA elevation to drop them squarely in the X-zone.
To make a really accurate program you would have to have control over all variables. Not really possible since the BC's given by factories are rarely accurate. Personally, I don't get real wrapped up in it.
Dope it, Dial it, Dump it. That'll give you the REAL results for a given load/bullet combination.
Excuse me while I duck out and put on my flame retardent suit...
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 19:32:29 (ZULU)
Ballistic Tips on deer, used .308 cal, in 308, 30-06 and 300wm. Also 270 win. not used em on any large deer, largest was fallow, they worked well but you wouldn't shoot a Mule deer in the rear quarter, through the boiler room and out the shoulder with one, definately a broad side bullet, you will get though one shoulder and devastate the vitals ok, and get an exit. good bullet for long range work, only problems i have heared of was at very close range going top FPS, they tend to open up quickly. The Hornady SST is slightly tougher, but not much. I wouldn't trust bal tips to work on pigs 100% of the time, but when they work they work dramaticaly, if you can pick your shot placement carefully (not always possible with pigs) then bal tips is ok. if your hunting anything larger than a white tail, id go with a Partition, Norma Vulkan or Lapua mega.
Had a great afternoon here in the village hunting pheasants this week, my dog is back on form, and so am i with the shot gun, out of the 9 blokes on the shoot me n the dog managed to whip up 75% of the bag, with some absolutely superb long high pheasant shots, spotless retrieves on a couple of runners and some superb spaniel game finding ability. Only thing is bieng Jagd Konig ( he who shot the most) means getting the beers in after the hunt. Going out after some deer this weekend in the village, there is something to be said for hunting on your own door step (rather than shitting on it).
We have invited a bunch of kids from local childrens homes for a day out in the summer, an early start and do some stalking or sit up some tree stands, we wont shoot of course, but it will give the kids a chance to see wild life they wouldn't normaly see. followed by a breakfast in the woods around a camp fire, theme events based around wildlife, woodland management and agriculture, some gundog working events showing the different styles and types of dog, let them shoot some cans with a few air guns and a tale afternoon meal of game meat stew later in the day, should get us hunters some brownie points and give the kids some fun into the bargain.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 20:23:12 (ZULU)
Kevin; if the others are on the paper that's close enough for me.:)
The closest I've seen consistently is one of my local guys here who has under 7.5 fps. All the time. He uses Magnum primers in .308 win.
IF it makes a big difference even at 1K it's hard to see it. I've taken to turning necks but if that helps, I can't see it. I've always thought neck sized shot better but it just isn't worth the possibility of a stuck round. Not to me anyway. 3 or 4 firings and your shaving brass off the head with a lot of factory Remingtons.
If I could make .5 MOA at 1000 I'd dip the brass in Gold but most of the anal practices just don't help that much due to wind and other factors it's hard to see anyway. But you can't throw good practices to the wind and hope it will work either. I doubt if there are many here that wouldn't outshoot me but I try to practice the religion anyway. Back in those precious bench rest days we used the same case on every shot trimmed and fussed. Kept the powder stable and a jillion other things that took more time than they were worth but we thought we were having fun. IF you could get 10 shots on a dime at 300 you could usually win something. Was it worth it? NAW.
Brogers
Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 21:37:13 (ZULU)
Unfortunately I don't know how good I would do in the field at 1000. I can tell you that my knee wouldn't let me travel very far to find out. I imagine if the aliens invaded and I had to hump it to get a good shot, my old ass could do what I would have to, but would need O2 when I got there. A man's got to know his limitations, mine are money, time, bad knee and misc. other nagging crap that keeps me from competing with you folks at these fine matches. I was hoping to get to the next match that Rod puts on but these days, I can't plan that far in advance. Pretty much have to stay on the flat land at Butner.
On boolit selection.......
I have always wondered what load and bullet sniper folks would choose if they could load their own. I read about M118 and am not very impressed. Peter mentions ballistic tips are barely effective so I guess that lets AMAX bullets out. (I have had damn good results with Nosler Ballistic Tips on whitetails though.) I reckon the only thing left is the SMK if it is to hold together.
FCS...........
You hit at least one nail on the head about 100 yards. However, most of us poor souls are limited to the local ranges. My local range goes out to 200. I can only shoot at Butner when there is a match. Soooooo, I end up using match conditions to determine if my loads are good. That sucks but nothing I can do about it. You automatically go into the match handicapped by a load that you don't have any idea will be accurate at that range. If it ain't, you have screwed the pooch for the whole match. BUt, I always carry enough factory rounds that I have dope for to fall back on.
Back on tornado watch....Bolt out!
Bolt
Tornado watch in January!! WTF???????, NC, - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 00:12:00 (ZULU)
Brogers
Friday, January 14, 2005, at 00:57:30 (ZULU)
For me it is a way of removing that last little percentage of equipment error. I relate it to sight alignment in revolver/pistol shooting. If the sight is out of alignment by .001" on a 4" sight radius then the impact at 25 yds will be off by X" (I don't recall the exact figure). So in rifle shooting if I can reduce the angle of error by reducing the MOA in group size, caused by the round being fired, then any off target shots were a result of my miss-reading conditions or bad range estimation. Isn't it just a continuation of what goes on when building the rifle. The receiver is trued, lugs are lapped and all the other work that goes into the build of the rifle.
It is the desire to what to be or do better.
Bill B.,
You've got a bit of a late start for my neck of the woods. Can't say you couldn't do it but here it is mandatory retirement at 60. Stay Safe!
Later,
Byron
CA, USA - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 01:37:06 (ZULU)
Dang it, you silver tounge devil. Thats what I was trying to say about removing all I can remove and THEN figuring out why the nut behind the trigger can't get his hockey right. I doesn't has a good whey wif woids.
Bill.....
Bad knees are like kidney stones. Hard to explain what it feels like when someone is driving a cherry red hot 16 penny nail in you knee. I am as close to a knee replacement as I have been in a long time. Will get better for a while during warm weather then as soon as cold wet weather hits, goes back to the same old thing.
Concealed carry permit......
Thirty days down and no more than 60 days to go. This is like watching water boil.
Butner match schedule is up........
http://northstateshootingclub.com/Frames/Frame_Home.htm
Bolt
DELL country , NC, - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 02:17:51 (ZULU)
'lito, incoming, subj: Air Boat Stuff. Clean.
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 03:57:12 (ZULU)
Chronograph my man, chronograph!! Once you find your 100 yard load that shoots knot holes, choronograph it to see what the average speed and ES is. Now you can try different powders to see what will give you the same velocity, usually hits the same barrel harmonic node, and the lowest ES. I've usually found that this will give you a pretty good long distance load given a 1 or 200 yard test range. I know that my Win 70 HBV liked RL-15 over Varget for best accuracy. The IBA (Hart barrel) and the Rock 5R barreled rifle seems to shoot Varget really well. Actually, I don't think I've done testing with any other powder as both were shooting 0.5 MOA or better at 200 with low ES.
FCS
Central, NM, USA - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 05:17:54 (ZULU)
The amax apparently behaves like a balistic tip, according to accounts of folks mistakenly using em for deer hunting, perhaps the amax would be a good sniper bullet.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 07:50:13 (ZULU)
I've tried Nosler 125gr BT on roedeer. Very lethal but very messy. Loaded with Norma 202, can't remember the charge, it touched 3100fps in a M14.
Torf
Oslo, Norway - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 11:56:48 (ZULU)
IF I wanted to shoot somebody OSOK and know it was a done deal. I'd use the A-max. The destruction is spectaular on a creature the size of a man. They'll take a average size whitetail unless the breast works gets in the way. If you shoot a deer that way you better get ready to walk anyhow. I've seen huge Elk knocked down and out with a 30-06 through a massive shoulder with out of the box Remington ammo but then I saw a 400+class that needed 13 rounds to bring down. Big problem there was that none of em hit the Elk. He was shot once through the Jaw and followed on horse back for 5 miles. Finally the shooter dropped the cannon and finished him with a 30-06 in a Remington Auto 7 or something close to that. That animals shoulder took the hit and was the size of a large fence post. Went through and took out the heart. "Hell, I was there!" Sorry Elmer.
Brogers
Friday, January 14, 2005, at 12:59:14 (ZULU)
I am with the anal bunch on reloading. I like to take out all the varriables that I can. I want to know when I miss its my fault!!
I have also found over the years that a load that rips a ragged hole at 100yds may not shoot well at all past 400yds. When I was doing load testing for my 6.5x284 I had a load with a 142MK that would shoot in the .3s at 100yds an a load with the 140AMAX that would only shoot in the mid .5s at 100yds. To make along story short the 140AMAXs would hold the .5MOA to 800yds with it nearly doing that well at 1000yds if I did my part. On the other had the 142 load that shot so well at 100 would open up past 400yds to around MOA or a little under.
I have found over the years that if I get a load that will shoot well at 400yds its a good long range load. I used to wear guns out trying to find a load that would shoot a little hole at 100yds then have it not shoot at longer ranges. Sometimes they "Will" shoot well at long range but not always.
Mike an Kevin are right on with what they said about a good .7 or MOA rifle is all you really need when shooting under field conditions. I have been beat by guys shooting some wore out guns that will hardly group an inch at 100yds when mine would group into the .3s. All it takes is practice, practice, paractice........ Hell, if it was easy everyone would be doing it!!!(HA)
Pat
Friday, January 14, 2005, at 14:53:55 (ZULU)
You are correct though about less chance of an exit on a quartering shot with the Bal. Tip. I remember a big sika stag (50Kg+ butchered in the skin) that I had called out of the thicket during the rut. He was almost face on when shot on the point of the near side shoulder. He just turned and jumped back into the trees. 20yds in he was dead. Hit where aimed, the 180gr Bal. Tip had stopped under the skin just behind the last rib on the offside. Range of shot was about 50yds. After this I would also be reluctant to use them on heavy boned animals like pig too.
165gr Bal. Tips are messy on roe (little deer) at 300WM velocities, but work very well on the larger species, even through the shoulders. 180s work well also, and the lower velocity seems to cause less damage to the lighter built roe. From these observations, I don't think its the bullet coming apart rapidly that causes the excessive damage, its the smaller deer not holding up well to the hydrostatic shock. At least thats my theory.
Jon
Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 14:57:19 (ZULU)
Nosler Ballistic Tips: Have used them on a number of "test subjects" with the same result...instantly fatal. These in 7mm and .308.
Subjects are our blacktail deer. Mature buck running about 225-250 lbs. live weight. Only one took two rounds and was not needed. The 1st bullet had destroyed the heart with a broadside shot...the second when the dear turned and I shot again through the same path as the 1st bullet. Deer was dead on his feet with the first round...
This with a 7/08 and a 140 gr BT. No bullets recovered.
In .308 with 150's and 165's. Frontal shots entered the chest directly, angling along the esophagus and directly into the heart. To say it "destroyed" the heart would be an understatement. Vaporized, is more like it. No exit wound/bullet not recovered from animal. To this day I don't know where it went. This with a 150 gr. BT. Now using 165's as it tracks fairly closely to my match loads.
Great terminal performance with the Ballistic Tips, but I wouldn't use them on anything larger than deer. For larger animals I use a premium bullet. Nosler Partition being my favorite.
Placement is more important, IMHO, but if you couple it with an effective bullet the results can be, ahem, gratifying.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 17:54:32 (ZULU)
I have always used 130gr Noslers for my .270 deer rifle, and this is the story why.
Last year, here in the plains of South Dakota I laser ranged a white tail doe at 222yards. I was in a shelterbelt of trees and was trying to squeeze my bullet through a tight clearing of trees. In doing this “Dumb” and irresponsible move, my lead seemed to catch part of a branch and clipped the deer in the rear quarter. But, to my amazement, the deer was spun around and flung to the ground. Thus allowing me a swift and deadly second shot.
Now, it is true that I haven’t used any other lead at deer so I don’t know if it would have the same impact. But, because of this, I chose to use nothing but Nosler BT in my deer rifle. I would hate to think that deer could have run away wounded…That is always my biggest fear.
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Friday, January 14, 2005, at 18:50:41 (ZULU)
Shoot a milk jug full of water with an SMK and then shoot another with the A Max ... no comparison.
Only about 2 clicks variance between the TAP and GM in all 4 of our AI AEs. TAP seems to run a little hotter.
BK
brian k. sain
Friday, January 14, 2005, at 20:39:06 (ZULU)
Man (sized) targets are a different ball game entirely. It takes much less to bring one down. I like the bt's in this instance, but also the frangibles, especially when an unreliably explosive varmint type bullet creates an utterly unpredictable path to have the fragments exit the target. The frangibles seem more naturally suited to hostage situations or covering an entry where good guys are in close proximity.
I like the TAP stuff in thoery, but have seen results on soft tissue that were not incredibly encouraging. Using dead pigs as media, when shot thru glass or drywall, they barely penetrated the pigs at 100m. Alone they were spectacular. OTOH, Nosler BT's from a 223 did not fare well at all thru glass, and on head shots, tended to pop ballons that were taped up near the heads to simulate hostages.
All in all, there probably isn't a perfect bullet, and very few magic ones. Certainly not one that will work in all situations. That being said, if you come to Africa and hunt bigger game with me, please leave the plastic tips at home!
Rob
Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 01:02:28 (ZULU)
In my own experience, they are too explosive on impact. With 165s in a 30-06, jack rabbit parts were scattered anywhere from 15 to 45 feet from the impact site. The bullet expands at or near the surface and has little penetration for larger game animals.
Scott Smith
Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 01:50:51 (ZULU)
Please take a moment to read the article in the latest issue (1/17/05). Either click on my name, or cut and past the link below:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/050117/usnews/17spotlight.htm
Stories about men like Sgt. 1st Class Pedro Munoz should be taught in schools.....
Michael
Los Gatos, CA, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 03:19:08 (ZULU)
I wouldn't use em on Elk and i don't use em on pigs, pigs are tougher than any deer. and i have found the very best way to not have to spend a valuable time tracking a run wounded animal is to break bone, at least one shoulder, preferable both, if you break the shoulder bone on the way to the vitals the game doesn't tend to go far.
When shooting pigs a large exit wound is an absolute must have, the fat and skin on a pig closes up so quick after been shot the darn things can leave no blood trail at all, and when shooting drive game, deer or pigs, the shot placement can err on the side of not perfectly placed and the target is not nesseceraly presented at a good broad side angle.
I'll be trying the 9.3 out on some roe this afternoon, it makes a big hole in anything it hits.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 09:37:17 (ZULU)
Like I said below, I have seen A LOT of deer (not talking elk or wapiti here though) taken with 165gr BTs. Roe taken up the front nearly blows off the offside leg/shoulder with massive exit hole. Sika and red it leaves a 1.5" to 2" exit. Nice and neat. Only difference I can see is the bigger animals have stronger bones, tougher skin and thicker muscle along with more internals to absorb the shock. They hold together better. Same with Scott's experience with the rabbits; little fragile critter = blow to bits. Forgot to say with the sika stag story, the bullet recovered was well mushroomed, but still a large portion intact. Didn't weigh it to see how much mass was lost, wish I had now, would have been interesting. Expand rapidly they definately do, but I don't think they fragment all that much (not talking any other than the 165s and 180s). Can't say the same for Sierra 165gr HPBT GameKing. Pushed out of the 300WM they often left several exit wounds.
By far the most deer I have seen shot have been with just plain old soft-point, flat based bullets. They NEARLY always perform as expected. No mess, no fuss.
As this is 'Sniper Country' and often deals with 2 legged varmints I don't know that a single bullet could perform ideally with all the possible situations a sniper may be called in to deal with; particularly thinking LE here. May be the answer is to use several different bullets that have VERY similar trajectories and hopefully identical zeros that can be chosen (if there is enough time) according to the situation. Plain old bad guy in the open bullet, hostage situation with innocents near-by bullet, through glass/interior wall bullet, and so on. Or is that just too complicated for the real world?
Jon
Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 11:42:43 (ZULU)
brian k. sain
Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 15:00:35 (ZULU)
And I'm gettin' so old that change comes hard. When I grow up, I'm not sure I want to be a sniper, 'cuz that s**t's hard.
Anyway, good to be back. This old codger's back ain't used to sleeping on dirt and rocks. I did find the meals in a bag quite tasty, though. I do confess, I took the civilian stuff as well. Freeze-dried is lighter, and still tastes better. Chews through yer water, though, and water is worth about $400 and ounce out there. (more than gold)
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 15:49:56 (ZULU)
LOL
Jon
Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 16:44:45 (ZULU)
Piggy Pete. You're going to use a 9.3 on roe deer? Aren't those the "little guys". All kidding aside, I'll bet you get a clean wound channel entrance/exit wound. Probably less blood shot meat, as well. One reason I like the .35's at 2,600 or 9.3's at the same. Personally, I'm thinking of a 9.3 x 64 Brennecke. Have a commercial FN action that is just begging for a big bore chambering. Of course there is always the .404 Jefferies...
Need a high grade shotgun, .224 of some type, and a "big bore". Say a .400 or larger. Never know when you're gonna get charged by a 200 KG Blacktail or, god forbid, one of the big eastern "muleys". Tend to always err on the side of "bigger is better".
Brian, Intermediate barriers...I'm waiting for the .338 Lapua depleted uranium core round...;-)
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 17:00:16 (ZULU)
More bad - STUPID - news for our guys...
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/1/15/15623.shtml
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 17:12:17 (ZULU)
Last time we were there, we took a 50# yellow catfish out of Bouquillas Canyon and a 25# out of San Vicente Canyon. We looked Mariscal Canyon over and it was too crowded. It was there that I saw my first wild bull. The presence of the wild cattle dates back to the time of the Spaniards. We gave him a wide birth even though he was on a narrow rock scholl and we were in the river. He paid us no mind. Later, after I was home, I read an article in the American Hunter about those that hunt the Wild Cattle of the Rio Grande. They are definitely in the African game cartridge category. In the article it spoke of one rancher that had shot a cow with a .308 and departed immediately w/o seeing the results. It went on to say that he saw the same cow next season with a scar over the where he thought the .308 wound shoulda been....like it never happened.
The drive up to Panther Junction and then on up to the Chisos Basin was always enjoyable. I couldn't get over the smell of pine trees @ night. Woulda thought we were in the mountains of Colorado. The temps @ the Basin were on the average about 15 degrees cooler than down on the river. The first time I saw the Basin (in the daytime), I was astonished with the presence of pine and aspens. One of the rangers told us that the Chisos was the extreme lower part of the Rocky Mtn. range. That's hard to imagine standing in the middle of the Chihuahua Desert.
Chuck,
Did you go into Bouquillas Village and get some Mexican food (tacos mostly) complete with a bowl of chiles (yes Bruce I remember ;) and a Mexican Coke or Beer? All sitting under a veranda with a view of the Rio Bravo going into the Bouquillas Canyon? Its a beautiful and wild place. With very few exceptions, Bouquillas looked like it had changed very little since Pancho Villa.
I've always said that you haven't seen Texas until you see Big Bend and you haven't seen Big Bend until you've seen it from the Rio Grande.
Good story Chuck.
Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 18:41:37 (ZULU)
Did you consider the slope angle when you did the ranging calculations? A 6-foot tall object looks shorter than that when viewed from anything other than the same level. You have to use the shorter height in the range calcs.
Speaking of predators in the woods, I'm reminded of an exchange on rec.guns a while back. Someone asked what kind of sidearm to take while backpacking in bear country. After the ususal bunch of large-caliber recommendations, I opined that a .22 double barrel derringer was most weight effective - one shot to piss off the bear and one to end your misery as he ate you.
Mike
BMG Mike
AUSTX, - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 18:41:58 (ZULU)
Mission:BadLands - Bruce Robinson Memorial Match
8 Teams have sent in their entry packets and deposits. This is going to be a match to remember!!
Edited to add: Pictures of our new dormitory/classroom can be found on the BadLands website now.
Tactical,
IF you are still contemplating on competing, need your application in by February 1, and deposit NLT February 15. Have teams on waiting list for this.
Looking forward to seeing ya shooting .5 MOA in the field sir!
Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 22:01:12 (ZULU)
Michael
Los Gatos, CA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2005, at 05:59:50 (ZULU)
There was no need to check the slope angle. I've been hanging around that particular area for at least 17 years, and I know that the difference in elev. is only a couple hundred feet, at most. Spread that out over 950 yards, and the slope angle is negligible....I've got a ton of stories of the Big Bend. Most of them on the north side of the Rio Grande. Most of them. I'll not get started, mostly because I don't want to bore youse guys, but also because I'm not sure of the exact statute of limitations on some things.
ONe thing You DO want to do there is check the atmospheric conditions. Even on a cold, sunny day, the baro. was only 28.60, and the rel. humidity only 15%. Hey, look, Ma....shot him in the hair!
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2005, at 15:10:56 (ZULU)
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2005, at 15:14:01 (ZULU)
Savageshooters.com is moving to new and better forum. Check it out here:
http://www.savageshooters.com/forum/
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2005, at 19:31:42 (ZULU)
And the e-mail is back on line as well.
Good to catch up with you guys.....
Bravo
Sunday, January 16, 2005, at 23:16:14 (ZULU)
The Holy Gospel According to John Moses Browning
I. In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good.
II. John Moses Browning went up into the mountain, even unto the top of the mountain. And he received from the Lord the 1911, yea, and the design thereof, and rendered it into steel.
III. And the Lord saw that the 1911 was good, and blessed it, and said "Let it be made in .45ACP, that you may smite thine enemies a mighty blow, for the .45ACP shall cleave unto the 1911 as man shall cleave unto his wife, and likewise the 1911 shall cleave also unto the .45ACP, for this union is a holy one, from which thou shalt not stray.
IV. So the 1911 in .45ACP came to pass, and it was good, and the righteous therefore smote the minions of evil, as the Lord had intended.
V. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.
VI. And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.
VII. And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.
VIII. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.
IX. And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and loose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.
X. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunction to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.
XI. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.
XII. And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did function.
XIII. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.
XIV. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and did proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol, and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continued to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.
XV. And when man had been totally ensnared with plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-BOOM to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.
XVI. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.
XVII. And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation by the followers of John."
Ducking!
Robert Martin
Sunday, January 16, 2005, at 23:28:08 (ZULU)
Wes.. use enough gun !! that 9.3 is perfect Roe medicine and you never know when something bigger might turn up. , darn am i happy with that rifle, it shoots better than any rifle in a biggish caliber should be able to, and it does it with the very cheapest factory ammo i can buy for it. Having said that i have decided that 2005 is the year i start hand loading, so i will be looking for some interesting 9.3 bullets.
Jon you will be getting all hot an bothered with all this penetration talk, i bet you would take any shot presented if you was after some driven boar, do you remember Stuart moaning about my awful shooting at game just because i refused to kneck shoot and shot all the deer perfectly through the boiler room. Anyway isn't it time you came over, helped me build a few more high seats and finaly get a piggy shot.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 08:43:28 (ZULU)
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 08:51:13 (ZULU)
Chuck, good info on your trip. I've been doing a little hiking myself. Hey, I can relearn that lesson, hah (if only I were smart enough to learn that one once, it'd been fixed by the time I was 11). Glad to hear the body held up; we'll see how mine is after this year.
Bobby, thanks for updates, will be a good time (hey, it won't hurt when everyone talks about it afterwards!)
John L
Mid , MO, U.S.A. - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 09:53:03 (ZULU)
Rob
Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 12:30:56 (ZULU)
That turns out, alas, not to be the case. Water vapor is lighter than air, which is why steam rises, so bullets will fly higher in air that is MORE humid, given the same temperature and barometric pressure.
But the difference in elevation at 1000 yards from air that varies from 0 percent to 100 percent in relative humidity is only a couple of inches, and I haven't seen many shooters who can hold that, so the difference is unlikely to be interesting.
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 13:35:18 (ZULU)
Sorry, feeling testy today.
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 13:56:47 (ZULU)
Figured i'd make that comment before Brian did, and a bit of humour might brighten the day.
Delete it is it aint fitting, but it gave me a chuckle..
Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 15:55:56 (ZULU)
I'm certainly not an expert, but that's my observation for what it's worth.
Indiansinger
Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 21:23:44 (ZULU)
Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 21:28:57 (ZULU)
Mike/Undude
MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, January 17, 2005, at 22:59:39 (ZULU)
Has anyone had any experience with Armalite's AR-30, namely the one chambered in .338 Lapua,or their AR-50 (50 BMG)? Any information would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Pat
Pat
Monday, January 17, 2005, at 23:35:03 (ZULU)
I know you are a huge advocate of the metric system, so when you slip up and start talking inches, we all know you mean centimeters...
medicjim
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 01:27:29 (ZULU)
Talk to me about the benefits of the "5-R Mil-Spec Barrel" for the Model 700 Remington over a regular 700 barrel . I am referring to the REM 9663 Model 700 with stainless barrel...something must justify the extra couple hundred bucks. It is essentially the same rifle that is being sold by SC.
Working a trade right now (still early) and want to know what there is to know.
Thanks,
VJ
Vaughn Johnson
WI, - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 01:33:18 (ZULU)
I have spent my life "getting a late start". Better to be late than not live at all.
After returning from active duty in 73 I went back to work at the GE factory near here. I stayed drunk most of the time until I figured out that I hated my life. I quit the booze, and started living. I have not looked back since.
Back in 88 I was in Boeing 727 class for my first airline job. Most of the other guys in class were former military jocks. I was a mechanic with a high school education that ferried aircraft for the factories. They openly told me that I would never make it. Finished third in my class.
I ain't saying I could make it through any academy. I have been blessed with good health, and enjoy physical fitness that others never had to begin with.
I know I am one lucky sumbitch, and give Thanks everyday.
Best wishes,
Bill
Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 01:36:22 (ZULU)
See ya in a few.
BK
brian k. sain
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 02:41:22 (ZULU)
Sierra's ballistic software calculates that with the air temperature at 75 degrees F., atmospheric pressure at 29.92 inches, and a muzzle velocity of 2690 fps, a Sierra 175 MatchKing will strike 2.85 inches higher at 1000 yards if the relative humidity is 100 percent than it will if the relative humidity is zero.
Since that software, which agrees in the direction of the change with two other ballistic software packages I have, is, as are the others, based upon well-accepted equations for air density which are used as well in applications as diverse as aviation and turbocharging, I rather doubt that they are incorrect.
The magnitude of that change is about equal to the magnitude of the average elevation change which would be experience by a load with that bullet which has a standard deviation of 10 - which is (a) a pretty good load, and (b) why I doubt anyone could hold that well at that distance.
The external ballistic section of Sierra's reloading manual says:
"For example, for a location near sea level on a 90°F day with barometric pressure the same for both situations, absolutely dry air (zero relative humidity) is not quite 0.02 percent MORE dense than air saturated with water vapor (fog, meaning 100 percent relative humidity). This seems strange; wet air feels “heavier” than dry air. But it is true because a water molecule weighs less than a nitrogen molecule, which it displaces if the pressure and temperature remain the same. This tiny change in air density is not completely negligible for long-range shooting. For example, under these same atmospheric conditions, the drop at 1000 yards for Sierra’s .308” diameter 168 grain MatchKing bullet fired at 2700 fps muzzle velocity will be about 2.4 inches more for absolutely dry air than for saturated wet air."
There are several books on long-distance shooting I have seen, some quite well known, as well as at least one military manual, the old USMC Sniper Manual, which erroneously state that more humid air is more dense.
So, thinking that humid air is more dense than dry air is a common mistake - but still a mistake.
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 02:42:44 (ZULU)
Charles S. Hunt
San Anto, Tejas, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 03:59:06 (ZULU)
Vaughn, can't vouch for what "mil-spec" is for a 5R barrel. Would love to see the spec. Personally, I think this was a selling point used because of the popularity of the 5-R concept. Not necessarily because it's superior.
This get's into the old button vs. cut rifling. I've asked Boot's Obermeyer about that. His take was the same as Hart, Sr. Both will give the same quality/performance if all else is equal.
Case in point: My M40A1 clone has an Obermeyer 5R stainless barrel. It does under .5 MOA consistently. The weak link in the chain is "watashi wa". My 6.5 x .284 Chandler gun has a Hart barrel, which is button rifled. It will do in the .2 and .3's consistently.
600 yard groups are abour 3" for the .308 and less than 1 1/2" for the 6.5. For me, there is darn little difference. I am the limiting factor.
Pat, a compadre of mine in NM has an AR-30 and LOVES it. First round downrange was a dead center hit at 850 yards(this after initial sight in). He uses the Horus Vision system and swears by it!
Also, he said the muzzle brake was VERY effective and it was like shooting a .308. He gives it a BIG thumbs up. Please note, this is not any "guy". He makes his living by doing ballistic research.
Warm vs. Cold air. Ahem, gents. I'm not a real sniper, but aren't we getting a bit anal? My thoughts were that if we shoot in conditions and have noted changes that should be in our data book. All I need is another thing to worry about besides "close eyes, scream, and pull trigger"...;-)
Robert, will be building another rifle. Caliber's are down to the .375 H&H or the .404 Jeffery NE. Will probably go .404, because it is a true "big" bore. As you were kind enough to point out a while back...
Pete, My condolences on the loss of your Argentine friend. Thirty-six is WAY to young to go to the happy hunting ground. Hope the team recovers and moves forward. That would be a fitting memorial for your friend.
Ah, the 9.3 x 62. BIG surge of interest in this country. I still stump for the .35 Whelan Ackley Improved. I can get bullets to 300 grains for it. They should get out the bore about 2200-2300 FPS.
Have to try my 275 grain Hornady RN's first.
Brian, Mike, and all. Thanks for all you do to support our troops.
Be safe and WY6.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 04:42:00 (ZULU)
>>>Has anyone had any experience with Armalite's AR-30, namely the one chambered in .338 Lapua<<<<
You might ask "Sweetie." Methinks she has successfully hijacked her husband's .338 Lapua AR-30 cuz she's got him handcuffed to the loading bench getting ready for the next Long Range session ;))))) He even sent me a pic of the both of them @ Quantico shooting the stick. Now that's a marriage ;))))
If the targets he's sent me are any indication of the rifle's performance, I'd have to say I'm VERY impressed.
If I were gonna have a .338 Lap., that'd be the one. Based on everything that I've heard and read anyway.
Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 04:49:04 (ZULU)
Pat the .338 AR-30 in Lapua .338 is a pretty impressive rifle. Didn't get to shoot it as much as I would have liked but the wind was 45mph and conditions just didn't yield good figures in that test. Recoil was about like a 30-06 and Blast a big uncomfortable probably due to the muzzle brake. In a conventional weight rifle, I'd go ahead and have my shoulder joint replaced BEFORE I shot it. It did about 3" at 600 yards for what it was worth in that kind of wind. I was not fond of the metal stock and the weight was beyond what I'd ever carry in the field but that's a gimmie. It was a well built working rifle. I wish I could tell you more. The scope was suspect and parallex was excessive at any range.
Brogers
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 05:17:09 (ZULU)
FYI since this was brought up before :
RIFLE RECALL . . . About three thousand rifles sold under the Sako and Tikka labels have been recalled following catastrophic failures, but a small number of guns sold in the American market remain in the hands of owners who apparently have not heard about the recall. A weakness in the stainless steel used to manufacture rifles last year has led to ruptured barrels. Contact the Sako/Tikka Recall Center immediately at 800-503-8869 with your rifle's serial number to find out if your firearm is affected.
http://www.nssf.org/BP/current/index.cfm?AoI=generic near the bottom
John L
Mid , MO, U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 05:25:13 (ZULU)
I have an AR50 and love it. I've got it sighted at 400 yrds, but I haven't had a chance to shoot it out past that yet. LOTS of noise and back-blast from the brake, but combined with the 30+ pound rifle, it tames the recoil very well.
Steve,
Yes the ammo was also 30 degrees colder but when I put it in my pocket to keep it warm, my girlfriend got excited..... :-)
Brogers,
You're right, I should have taken the temp into consideration and I knew it. But I can't remember everything. I think I'm suffering from old-timers disease or I'm just a fair-weather shooter. :-)
Indiansinger
Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 05:57:17 (ZULU)
The problem is that there are these pesky factors called "barometric pressure" and "powder burn rate" that are kinda hard to track. I've been keeping databooks since 1980 and I can vouch for the fact that sometimes I have issues with the logic of the data I have in them.
A lot of the data I have seen is telling me that the actual temperature of the cartridge/powder and the barometric pressure are going to have more of an effect than the exterior ballistics of a shot than the air temperature and humidity which were two of the major factors that we were taught when I was going to school in the 80's. Back then we didnt have all the ballistics programs like we do now and all the "rules of thumb" we were taught (and I inturn taught and put into lesson plans and manuals were taken out of team shooters databooks which were primarily gotten from data at the 300 and 600 yard lines (ie national match shooters) and half of them were legally drunk when they were shooting anyway (just kiddin!! well kinda...)
Science is science and the data in our databooks is only as good as our ability to accuratly measure the ambient conditions we are shooting in. If these programs didnt work then a lot of M1 Abrams shots would be missing at 1500 plus meters.
Just my not so humble opinion.
I now return you to your normally scheduled program....
Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 06:09:44 (ZULU)
Rob
Robert Martin
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 10:52:24 (ZULU)
I was talking with some shooters in Pheonix and they mensioned that their last F class turn out was four (4) shooters. This kind of shocked me, as Ben Avery seems like a very nice range complex. So, I ask myself why, and now I'm asking you Arizona shooters.
How many AZ shooters do we have here? Have you ever been to Ben Avery to use the 1000 yard range? If not, Why? What can Ben Avery do to get you to come and shoot the 1K matches?
Pheonix tried to annex the range and tear it down this past year. The lack of participation was one of the reasons they said it wasn't neccessary? I have to wonder why the shooters from a state would rather have a super Target and a strip mall, or another sub-division, instead of a 1K range?
Just curious. Please let me know. This may be of some benifit to you shooters and the club. Be brutally honest.
FatBoy...
Chris
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 12:15:16 (ZULU)
Brogers
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 13:41:35 (ZULU)
Sorry to hear about your co-worker. To damn young.
It took me a long time to figure out the whole density altitude thing but it's true. When it's hot and humid it'll take more runway to get off the ground cause the air's thinner. When it's cold, it's like having a supercharger on the engine. I just checked the velocity on some lapua 185 scenar factory ammo on Sat. It was 20 degrees. 2514, 2520, 2524. On the same page at 60 degrees it was 2548, 2550, 2547. At 15 degrees from a very cold barrel(the rifle had been sittin outside while I was setting everything up) the first shot was 1457 fps. I hope that was a chrono mistake. The second and third shots were back up around 2400 or so. It's a bout 0 today and I just got my new Oehler 35P, maybe I should check 'em again??
John
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 14:20:04 (ZULU)
Has anyone here shot any .308/ 190gr SMK's in they're M40A1 SCLE rifles from George Gardner??? If so, how did they fair and what load did you end up with ???
also, have you had an opportunity to fire them at 1000yds ??? and did they perform well, bad, ?????
Thanks,
JR
JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 14:43:18 (ZULU)
I'm in NM but have shot the AZ State Palma championship (F-class) the last two years. Excellent range, if you have not had the opportunity to shoot there. I'd go there more often but the 8 hr drive is a bit much for one day of shooting. Not helping you much on figuring out why AZ shooters don't go there more. I know that I'd be there a lot if I lived within couple hours of Ben Avery.
Sir Wes,
Would be interesting to work some with your buddy in NM if he is not too far from me. I'm up for learning more about ballistics, especially at longer ranges.
JRMoore,
If you are going to use for F T/R try some 190 JLKs with 42 - 43.5 gr of Varget. I was using BR2s and Lapua brass. 190 JLKs have shot very well out of my 1:12 twist Win 70 to 1K. 1:11.25 twist on the SCLE should work even better. I don't have my chronograph data right in front of me but think the 190s were running 2620fps from the 26" factory Win barrel.
FCS
FCS
Central, NM, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 15:17:38 (ZULU)
Have tried 190's out to 400 with one powder and have 6 other powders loaded but the field has been underwater. I'm using the majik LRB bullets so take the results for what they're worth. So far 1 moa at 400.
I just went out and set up the chrono (which worked quite well at 3 degrees F) Factory 185 scenars barrel temp 60 deg., ammo temp- pocket for the first round, chamber for 1 min. on second round and third on the table for the time it took to fire all 3.
1st-2518/proof- 2538 prim.
2nd-2541/proof- 2534 prim.
3rd-2526/proof- 2517 prim.
I cleaned all the sealant off of 53 rounds of LC/LR-01 yesterday and re-seated 'em to 2.215 ogive. Decided to check them a minute ago as well. I didn't bring the tape but they were roughly 2596, 2603, and 2601. All were touching at 100, as were the Lapua. Did I mention it's to cold to be shootin???
John
edit to add
M70 win. GAP work and 5R rock barrel 22"
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 15:25:10 (ZULU)
It's been my experience that cold weather will show ANY weakness in a battery. Vehicle or handheld gps. I just put a new battery in the 35P and 1 for a spare. I used the 1 they sent me for a spare for my extra scales. The printer slowed down a little from the normal one second per line but otherwise it functioned well. It's a bluebird bright day as well. I returned the CED chrono last Friday. It went T/U last week finally. When it gets back it's goin on the Emporium with the software kit.
John
edit for cold fingers and brain
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 15:33:42 (ZULU)
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 15:56:54 (ZULU)
Darn it Medic Jim, you have a quick sense of whit, i like that, but bugger it, my secret is out now..
Wes, not much to choose between the 35Whelan and the 9.3x62, at least not if your a hairy wild hog. The 9.3 is very popular here, i've gotten pretty enthusiastic about it too, it replaced my 450 Marlin as my pig rifle but i figure i can use it a fair ways out too, should be at least good for 350m shots, which was pushing the envelope some with the 450. Have you seen the 9.3x66 Sako? I see Nosler do a 250 grain balistic tip with a BC of .494 in 9.3. its got an olive coloured tip, i wonder how that Bal tip performs on slightly larger game. Its time i started hand loading, that is a fact..
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 16:12:19 (ZULU)
Now onto important stuff. Ken Hunter has just donated funds for six more slings to troops in Iraq. Brian I will get them made and shipped by Friday. Ken your a great guy.
Mike/Undude
MikeMiller
CA, - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 16:15:54 (ZULU)
You wrote, and I quote: "ONe thing You DO want to do there is check the atmospheric conditions. Even on a cold, sunny day, the baro. was only 28.60, and the rel. humidity only 15%. Hey, look, Ma....shot him in the hair!"
Now, that might give a person new to this site the idea that low humidity contributes to your shot going high. The idea that drier air is less dense is a common enough error that I wanted to make sure THEY knew that is not the case. That's all.
As I said, at some length, it won't cause enough of an error to be interesting, but if it keeps some poor schmuck from going and spending a couple of hundred bucks on a Kestrel 4000 in order to be able to measure the relative humidity, it's worth doing. So, if anyone who hasn't figured it out is still reading this, please note the following: Ignore humidity as a factor.
Now, if you wish to, you may have the last comment on this subject, because I won't have another.
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 16:19:13 (ZULU)
I just wanted to let folks on the Duty Roster know that we will be having a Memorial Gathering in Bruce's honor on Friday, 28 January. And, yes, I know, Badger is also having a get-together the same night. (Sorry, George & Marty...not trying to steal your thunder or divide the crowd; that was the night we could get a suite for the event.)
This will be a time to see old friends, place some faces with names, and remember the Mildot MASTER.
You can email me for details.
LouAnn Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 16:46:42 (ZULU)
:).
Brogers
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 19:36:15 (ZULU)
The basic equation is PV=nRT, where P is pressure, V is volume, n is the number of molecules (in unit of moles), R is a gas constant to correct for units, and T is the absolute temperature (0 deg C is 273.15 Kelvin, each degree C is the same in Kelvin, I don't remember the US conversion).
In this case, the pressure and temperature are constant, so a given volume of air will hold the same number of molecules of whatever gas is present. The only thing that will change the density will be the weight of the molecules. Nitrogen gas weighs 28 g/mole, oxygen gas is 32 g/mole, and water vapor is 18 g/mole. Since air is pretty much 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen, a decent average is 29 g/mole.
Now, as the humidity increases, the percentage of molecules of water vapor in the air increases. This results in displacement of the nitrogen/oxygen molecules with water vapor. Substituting 29 g/mol with 18 g/mol will lower the density of the air.
The other effect is that water vapor requires a lot of heat to change temperature. That means that air that has a higher humidity will tend to be cooler. Since the % of water molecules in even saturated air is very small, the temperature effect is much larger and the calculated density will increase.
************************************
Or, ignore the theory and go by your data books, as Mike said. Considering all of the other variables, your results will be better than relatively minor adjustments here.
Karl
kdahm
Damn Hot, Tx, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 20:02:44 (ZULU)
Had my new m1a out today and was hoping i had a prb. corrected with the mount but it wasnt totally resolved. The mount is the A.R.M.S. # 18 i think, it was mounted per their instructions. The scope is a leupy tact. 3.5-10 w/ target adjustments. The problem is it was shooting very high..and at 100 yards its still about 2.5 inches high and i have very little left windage adjustment left. The vertical adjustment can be lowered no further. Has anyone had this problem or can anyone enlighten me as to what i might have wrong?
.
By the way, why is that the only day off has to be on the coldest ()&*)(&*)(*&#@)($*&@)#*$&@*#^$*@&^ day in 3 weeks? Oh well it didnt kill me so guess it made me stronger. Besides any day shooting is better than a good day at work.
Marc
The tundra of Pa, Make a terrorist happy.....help'm meet a virgin. >: ), USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 20:24:54 (ZULU)
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 22:27:29 (ZULU)
WR Moore
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 22:58:09 (ZULU)
Never use glass cleaner on your optics, the ammonia can destroy the seal between the glass and tube. I learnt that at Badlands,See Bobby and Steve i remembered something.
Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 23:07:08 (ZULU)
Use the same stuff they recommend in camera stores for expensive lenses.
I'm using Kodak Lens Cleaner and either microfibre lense cleaning cloth or Kodak (paper) Lens Cleaning Tissues.
(Picked up a 473ml bottle of Kodak Lens Cleaner in a photo store clearance bin years ago, will probably have to leave the remainder to someone in my will.
I don't know why they were clearancing it, the stuff is not going to go bad unless you contaminate or freeze it.)
The Leupold Lens Pen is nice for touch-up in the field,
but a bit anemic for serious amounts of dust.
I would be reluctant to use Windex on coated optics,
but I don't know if it would actually do harm.
\\
Here is what Kodak says about cleaning lenses:
Keep the lens covered whenever possible
You know the expression "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?" When not in use, keep the lens covered to protect it from scratches and fingerprints.
Remove dust from the lens
Lens surfaces are extremely delicate—clean them only when necessary. First, blow away any loose dirt or dust with a bulb brush (not the same one used to clean the camera body) or a can of compressed air. Then, use a lens tissue intended for photographic equipment and either breath lightly onto your lens to form a mist, or moisten the tissue with a photographic lens cleaner. (Never wipe a dry lens.)
Use a lens cleaner intended for cameras
Those chemically treated eyeglass cleaners could scratch your camera lens. Use cleaners intended for photographic lenses, not alcohol or eyeglass solutions.
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 23:24:00 (ZULU)
I use the lense cleaning solution marketed by Ziess.
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 23:50:25 (ZULU)
Zeiss lens cleaning kit from B&H Photo.$20 plus shipping and any taxes
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=247950&is=REG
Includes 2 strips of pre-moistened cloths, one (1) ounce spray cleaner, a microfiber lens cloth and lens care card. Durable carrying bag also included.
Kodak lens cleaner from B&H Photo. $8 plus shipping and any taxes
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=27962&is=REG
Kodak Lens Cleaner quickly and safely removes foreign matter from the surfaces of all optical glass, even smudged, dusty, or fingerprinted camera or enlarger lenses.
16oz bottle.
Of just go to http://www.bhphoto.com and specify "lens cleaner" as a search term.
B&H is a class act. Not necessarily the cheapest, but they try hard to keep their customers happy.
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 00:18:00 (ZULU)
Thanks
TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 00:41:11 (ZULU)
If you guys gals make it out ... Stop by the ORLEANS FRIDAY NIGHT for a get together in memory of Bruce Robinson.
Will be some good people there.
Best ... BK
brian k. sain
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 00:46:55 (ZULU)
Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 03:57:07 (ZULU)
Brogers, you crack me up. I am already held together with lots of epoxy, gortex and other folks used parts.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller
CA, - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 04:18:57 (ZULU)
Sinister, sorry to read about the loss of your friend. I am sure that the bond you had will ever be remembered.
Joe M...sorry I didn't get a chance to call you back last weekend. Will catch you before this weekend....I AM on call though. :-(
Tony Y....why reload for the M4? If you are shooting factory barrel, standard M4, the high zoot ammo probably doesn't make as much difference as practice would. Heck, Winchester value pack 55 grain FMJ (pretty close to M193) will do 1moa all day in my SPR build, which is exactly the same as the expensive Black Hills 68 grain match HP. At that point, it's better to me to get ammo and go shooting. Of course, I haven't had much time for either right now, but when I do get time, shooting is way more fun and productive. I kind of adopted this attitude when I took some carbine classes in the fall. Now I just want to attend more real training rather than sit in the basement.
Now if you are tweaking that M4 a'la some of the stuff Sinister Dave and his guys are doing, then going to tweaked ammo will likely have a higher rate of return in terms of results.
Speaking of which, I have an unfired 16" Stainless postban HBAR sitting here and being the inveterate tinkerer that I am, I'm contemplating chucking it in a mill over at a friend's shop and fluting it, then applying a low profile gas block and a rifle length ultra light YHM floated handguard with flip ups for that nice long sight radius. Sinister, are you allowed to release the specs on the flutes your shop is doing? Definitely don't want to cut flutes too deep :-(. I like the weight reduction you are getting.....I am thinking M4 type carbine with enhanced accuracy, rifle length sight radius, and ability to add lights and sights if needed, but with the weight shaved down as close as possible to my A1 pencil barrel carbine. :-O
Take care hawgs.....looking forward to more Shot show stories!
Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 05:03:07 (ZULU)
Interesting posts today. Will add my .02 worth...
Tony, "Rumors" that the heavier match bullets are doing well in theatre. Mind you, this is usubstantiated, but one source said the 77 grainers are kicking ass...
Sinister, you may want to chime in on this. You're way closer to the situation than I am.
Lens cleaning: Have been using commercial photo cleaning materials for years. Good optics should be cared for and NOT abused. I use scope caps/covers on all my serious stuff. Gotta cringe when I see hunters use their t-shirts, etc., to clean their optics...and I see that a lot.
Gooch-san, Thanks for the tip on using Rain-X, on the optics, after cleaning. That should be stellar for Western Oregons wet weather.
Lou Ann, won't be able to be at Bruce's memorial get together. Please raise a glass for me. I'll be there in spirit.
Pigmeister Pete, The 9.3x62 and .35 Whelan AI are ballistic twins. What can be said about one can be said about the other. New article in this months Accurate Rifle on the .35's
Haven't seen the specs on the 9.3x66 Sako round yet. My gunsmith compadre put a 9.3x64 Brennecke together. Hopefully, our next outing I'll get get to give it a try...
John, we discussed using 190's in the .308 sometine back. My experience has been that they shoot extremely well to 600 (the limit of our KD range). Only tried Hornady and Sierra. Load was 42.2gr of IMR-4064, a Federal 210 Match primer, case was commercial Winchester. Accuracy was every bit as good as the 168/175's. To 600 yards the load shoots FLATTER than the 168/175's. The down side is that the rifle comes back a bit harder, but hardly an issue. Frankly, if I wasn't sitting on a couple thousand 175gr. SMK's I'd probably switch to the heavier bullet. Velocity was 2,608 FPS from my 26" barrel.
Robert, Luckily, I can shoot the .404 Steve is building before I make up my mind. If it's anything like the .416 Rigby I shot last year it's not going to happen. Fired the Rigby with full house loads. 50 yard group was about 1.5" off hand. The rifle pegged my fun meter after only a few rounds. Dakota Actions are very nice and Pac-Nor barrels are made over on the coast
Don't know if I'll ever get to Africa. Have several friends who would be more than happy to accompany me. We'll have to see what the future brings.
My best to all, prayers for out troops, and the Mil-Dot MASTER.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 07:45:41 (ZULU)
The reason for reloading is because this rifle seems to be finicky when it comes to ammo. If I could find a factory load that will hold ubder 12" at 450 yds then I'd probably use it. The upper is an LMT 14.5" 1/7 with a free float YHM quad rail. Open sights and an Eotech. Lower is a Bushmaster with Rock River 2 stage, H-Bar buffer, magpul M92 stock. So far my ammo results are not too promising:
UMC 55gr - 3 - 4 MOA
Win USA 55gr - 3 - 4 MOA
Hornady TAP 75gr - too many FTF
Win USA 62gr - 2.5 - 3 MOA
Wolf 55 gr - too many FTF
Wolf 62 gr - too many FTF
Olymipic ss109 - too many FTF
PMC 55 gr - 3.5 MOA
Ultramax 55gr - 3.5 - 4 MOA
69 SMK handloads - 1.5 - 2 MOA
I have some Silver Bear 62gr, Fed Eagle 62gr and LC ss109s that I have not tried yet. I also have some Hornady 75gr, H4895 and 77gr SMT w/H4895 that I have yet to try.
I need to purchase or load about 3 - 4000 rds over the next couple of months for some upcoming clasess.
TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 10:14:08 (ZULU)
I’m having the same troubles with my M4gery. I’ve sent it off to George and am told it is on its way back to me with a new Rock 1/8 twist barrel and match chamber.
I had assembled this rifle from parts purchased from Bushmaster. It just wouldn’t shoot accurately. SS-109s grouped into five inches at 100 yards and my 69-grain match loads would only hold 2 ½ inches. I even single loaded my match ammunition thinking the problem was bullet setback.
My role in the upcoming Badlands FTX is as spotter and the FRAGO states that I’ll be expected to engage targets out to 400 yards. I simply must have a rifle that will shoot inside one minute of angle for that.
My plan is to load 77 grain SMKs for this rifle. I realize that for CQB applications I can shoot anything that will chamber but for the longer ranges I’ve got to have dependable accuracy.
I won’t allow myself to tally up how much I’ve spent on this project. Sadly I’ve learned yet again that if you want a rifle to shoot well don’t buy it “off the rack” have George build it from the start.
I’ve also learned that the placement of the front sight on an M4 is just too close for me to focus on it so I had the conventional front sight replaced with a simple gas block and will carry an Aimpoint to backup my ACOG.
On another note, I got e-mail yesterday from Rod Ryan at Storm Mountain. He’s running a two-day (weekend) Long Range Rifle III course. It will be all movers at 100, 300, 600 and 800. After my dismal performance at the last match from 600 I think I can use the training. It’s scheduled for July 23rd and 24th. His CPEC course looks interesting too (suppressors, night vision, etc.)
Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 12:42:19 (ZULU)
One more IED that they missed me with and a few more dead IED layers at the hands of one of the teams. And life goes on. Things are going to get really interesting once the elections roll around in the next couple days. Typing this on one of the little field computers we have, nifty gadgets but tiny keyboards are a PITA.
I'm looking very hard at making a decision between an AR50 and a GA .338LM. I am wondering if anyone does blueprinting work on the AR50 or if it even needs it? I really like the .50 for it's terminal effects vs hard targets but the 338 LM is much handier. Choices, choices. I'm already looking forward to OIF 5, the next time I'll be here in Iraq, and what we'll need then. Going to do things far differently than this go round IRT gear and equipping, that's for damned sure. Any how, back to work. S/F...Ken M
Ken M
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 12:57:37 (ZULU)
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 14:15:07 (ZULU)
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 16:12:11 (ZULU)
I took the CPEC course a while back and it was good. Lots of shooting from other than the typical positions. Extreem angles, night shooting, team shooting etc. etc. Great class. I'm sure that Rod has improved it too. I was thinking of doing it again myself but my Dad's having health problems and I'm not sure I can leave him alone that long yet. He has a couple of other courses I'd like to look into as well.
Indiansinger
Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 16:46:14 (ZULU)
Geoff: I agree on the M4/ reloading thing. Not much analism needed to get 'er to operate in the envelope! My thinking goes like this: "Have Carbine, will travel" Or, this here gun will be employed in the damnedester positions imaginable. Off hand...HMMV window ledges....rested upon a fifty-mounted on the pintle....off-hand...kneeling...off-hand....buddies shoulder....u-shape picket hand brace...off-hand. There is a pattern here after all. Off hand equals practice. You could not be more "on target" with your comments! Lots of ammo is betterer than a pefect loading. Crank em out, save money---but don't sweat the small stuff.
I carried a shit load of 77s all loaded up this last go-round. Prior, I carried the 62gr stuff. Even before that, the 55s. I suppose the 77 grainers were best, but hell---dead is dead. What's to compare? Heheh. Lucky, I guess. I did "feel better" when toting the 77s though. That is always nice...one should "feel good" about his kit. Now that I've seen some good data on the 6.8---I think I'd "feel gooderer" carrying that.
Pete: Too damned young! It did make me remember to cherish the day, though. And pretty much every one since. Who knows which may be the last. Make each count! That heart thing is in my gene pool----call this a wake up call for this guy!
Ken M: Yeah, you and your team remains in my prayers. Goes like this: "and God, look out for Ken's Marines...give them the strength and wisdom to take it to their enemies...." I see the reports every day...I hate that I am not in the arena pretty often. I think you know what I mean.
Atlanta Trip: We've come a long way on homeland defense. Weather was good too. Came home to sub-zero crap, and it was actually painful! Stupid me put my thug-cap in the checked bags. Checked bags went MIA, of course. Brrrrrrrrr.
Joe M
Joe Mahon
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 17:29:40 (ZULU)
Your problem is a common one. I had the same deal. I called Springfield to see if they had any answers, they said they could fix it. Got it back, same deal. This is also an age old topic on this site. The guys are probley tired of talking about it.
As I understand it the civilian M1As are machined slightly differently and nobody can make the ARMs mount work on it. Except, I believe its Brian Sain who has an answer.
I gave up trying to scope my M1A. I put it on my .223
Good Luck
Doug
doug sickels
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 17:31:13 (ZULU)
Fighting Range Closure - San Gabriel Valley Gun Club (Fish Canyon)
Last night I attended the second City Council Meeting on a re-zoning effort by the City of Azusa which would close down the gun club. Last month they delayed voting on the matter because of legal action that would be sought by the club if the city went forward with their plans. This month because a council member was absent, recent traffic accident, they didn't have enough members for a quorum. It seems two members have property that is involved in the zone changes so they can't vote, conflict of interest.
The range has been there since 1946 without a single incident at the facility. It is used by the public, various law enforcement agencies and the military. Council members say that it is not about the noise, not about the Second Ammendment, not about patriotism, it's about being GOOD for Azusa and its' residents. Those against the club, mainly those who bought houses, knowing the gun range was there before they bought, houses that couldn't have been built until the city signed off on waivers/variances so they could be built because they are located in a flood plain (at the base of a canyon that has 2 dams above them) and a geological liquefaction hazard zone, complain about the noise, claim safty hazard from errant rounds and drinking waters being contaminated by lead. One of the grounds that the clubs threatened legal action is based on is the fact that the land being re-zoned is actually federal land that is leased by the club. The city legal staff opinion is that they have the right to re-zone and the clubs claims were not valid.
If the actions of the city were for the residents of Azusa why is it telling one of its' oldest residents (the range and club) that they can no longer be part of the city?
They claim it is not about the Second Ammendment because they are not taking away our right to own guns. Yet they are taking away our ability to use them!
They claim the land isn't being used as government land but what is the military doing when they use it?
They claim that law enforcement and military can use other facilities for their training. If that was the case then why aren't they already using the facilities operated by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department who was named as an option (no available openings in schedule, all booked up) other public ranges (don't have the facilities or space, SGVGC is supposedly the largest public range in California).
They claim that the Gun Range Protection Act doesn't apply because it is not being closed because of noise, which is what the act is about, the land is simply being re-zoned which would not allow the current use once re-zoned.
They claim that they are trying to bring people and businesses into the city yet argue that those fighting for the range staying open are all from outside the city and not residents. So do they want people coming in and spending money in the city or not?
They claim that a decision has not been made on the issue yet but my personal opinion is that the only decision that hasn't been made yet is which shovel they will use to bury the range and gun club!
They didn't take away anyone's right to build a dragster when they closed the drag strips either. What activity will they eliminate next through back-door practices?
I now return you to your irregular programming....
Later,
Byron
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 18:54:43 (ZULU)
Joe, I know what you mean. I've been here going on 5 monthes now and it's getting a little old. But I know I'll miss it when I'm gone. I already plan on coming back, smarter and better prepared, with a few of the old breed and some new Marines as well. The prayers are appreciated, as is all the support from the homefront. It's literally been overwhelming, we are running out of space to keep stuff there has been so much sent. Overflow goes to deserving Iraqis.
BTW, they open Tampa to all civvie traffic tomorrow. I predict a bloodbath in the making. Anybody who's been here will know what I'm talking about.
It's going to be a tough couple weeks coming up, but the facts will never be as bad as the news reports them. I get a good laugh just about every time I read about our AO and try to figure out WTF the media is talking about. That's how different the reporting is from the facts on the ground. Maybe two weeks ago I was trying to figure out some IED attack where IP's were killed in our AO. Problem was that I was directly involved in the only IED attack that day, and I know sure as Hell we didn't kill any IP's because we didn't fire a single round. So please keep that in mind when you read about the upcoming carnage and the resulting news stories.
S/F...Ken M
Ken M
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 19:07:49 (ZULU)
Anal practices reloading? darn and i was gonna get into it this year, ive been too busy shooting and hunting all these years to get around to reloading, what i did do though was find the most promising factory load that i wanted to use and made the rifle fit the factory stuff, thats like reloading backwards sort of, or the other way round at least..
Wes,, pigmeister i like that !! the sako 9.3 is simply a lengthened case, has 4mm more room for powder. Ive used a 30-06 on deer for a few years now, but i couldn't make up my mind on a pig rifle, the 450 marlin was just the ticket, but i didn't like the straight stocked rifle, and the fact that synthetic stocks where hard to find for it, so i sold it and started looking for something to replace it, the 9.3x62 was the obviouse choice.
Optics Cleaning. I must admit to ruining a set of lenses on some Steiner bino's by wipeing em dry with tissues, but what the hell else are you supposed to do when you hunt in the rain. I sent the bino's to Steiner with a request fora quote for re polishing and recoating the lenses, i got the bino's back a month or so later, with new lenses and a new carry strap, the bin's also got used as a bipod on more than one occasion, got dropped from tree stands, dragged through the mud and generaly abused, it is a credit to the company that the things have never let me down. I have been a little more carefll with em since. I tend to dab em dry with a tissue when in the field, same goes for scope lenses, no rubbing, just dabbing. If i get the lenses dirty then they get cleaned under the shower with soapy water and well washed off. Finaly i give em the once over with some use once lense cloths, think they are from Zeiss too.
I see from the news that the court marshal of the Brit troops in this prisoner abuse thing is bieng held in the Garrison court marshal centre at our place. hmmm
Pete
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 19:28:20 (ZULU)
Jerry
Red River Country, MN, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 20:04:55 (ZULU)
I have both Exbal and Sierra Infinity. I would like to compare/contrast the effects of temperature changes on zero. Is there a way in either program to somewhat predict what a large temperature swing will do? For instance, today I was going to go to the range to see what the change in the CBS was from 10F to -10F. However, by the time I got off of work, the temp had warmed up to about 10F, so that experiment was off until next time.
I would like to have a SWAG at how the CBS will be affected over the temperature range. The programs always assume you already have a zero at x range.
Jim
JimT
Soldotna, AK, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 00:34:37 (ZULU)
Lie to the software. But have your fingers crossed when you do so it really doesn't matter.
Actually, reset the zero range to another yardage like 200 or 300 yards. Take a note of the bullet drop listed at 100 yards. Then reset the temperature or any other value and recalc. Now check the 100 yard figure again and you should have your answer. You may have to turn off any rounding function so that it shows the actual values calculated.
It's been a while since I've done this but it should work.
Byron
CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 01:55:20 (ZULU)
But I have to respond to MK4's post regarding the AR-30 that I seem to have commandeered.
I can't compare it to any other .338 since I haven't shot any others. But on the positive side: it doesn't have much of a kick, the trigger action is comfortable (not mushy or stiff) and everything works as advertised. On the downside, it ain't a pretty gun. But then it has the misfortune to be compared to my hubby's Christmas present to me: a beautiful Benelli walnut-gripped Olympic-grade target pistol that shoots S&W .32 long wadcutters for comparison. It shoots like a dream (and I have my first target hanging in the kitchen for proof). Everything is precise and easy to use. IT is now the standard against which I measure all other guns. Too bad for them!
But I digress.
Everybody who has shot the AR-30 likes it a lot. Sorry this isn't more technical, but I just don't know how to describe it adequately. Got to a range and see if anybody who has one will let you fire a few rounds. You'll be hooked.
As for finding a spouse who reloads, cleans, modifies and stores all your guns for you, good luck.
Take care,
Sweetie
MD, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 01:59:35 (ZULU)
There are answers to the scopage problems you're having.
None of those answers can be found at Sproingfeld Aromry or by contacting Swan.
In both cases, you're pretty much asking the grocery boy working the bags what kind of wine to serve with dinner. Good luck.
If you want some help, contact me through the roaster, I'll reply.
Be warned however, this will require some tool making, and isn't a slap-it-together situation.
Or you can always purchase an LRB 1919 receiver. Please do. And then let me in on what your first hand observations are (GRIN).
Ken, get you some, any way you can. Don't sweat the media. They've got their highly conditioned demographic set with which they get the almost pavlovian response. The rest of us couldn't care less what the TV says, 'cause we know they LIE. I rely on one post from you more than I do two weeks worth of "experts" in the idiot box. Like Joe said, you're still "on the list", and I make reminders too.
And speaking of Joe (HA!) I never did get those pics. I'm betting you sent 'em while my box was dead, and I somehow just never got them. Any chance on a resend?
Been doing some tremendous learning lately, especially in the last few weeks. The results that I've found at this point tend to make me believe (note, research not finalized, so INDICATES) that when dealing with modern powders in a pistol, the higher the pressure the better. As well, if there's such a thing as a powder that is "too fast" for the 9mm, I have yet to find it, and I have stepped faster than bullseye. And lastly, polyester is nice for your lime green leisure suit, but as far as I my data shows, it has no place in modern propellants. GROOOOOOVY.
Bravo
Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 04:39:28 (ZULU)
Byron, I feel your pain. We went through this when I was president of our local gun club (600 members). Noise was the issue. Even though there was only a few distant houses effected. There were people coming from 50-60 miles to testify that we should be shut down. Public forum...everyone allowed to speak.
The end result was that we worked out a deal with the commissioners to schedule sound abatement construction over several years. Everyone agreed and was happy. Except, of course" the anti's. They just wanted us to be shut down...idiots.
The upshot of all this is the main range and all the pistol bays are covered. You can shoot in the rain...an important consideration in Oregon. In the final analysis working with the commissioners put us in a "good guy" status. Haven't had any problems since.
Pete, Perhaps naming you the "Pigmeister" is not quite descriptive of your talents. Perhaps "Hogmeister" would be better. It certainly sounds more elegant...;-)
On the 9.3 thread. If the Sako 9.3 x 66 is only 4mm longer than the 9.3 x 62 and uses the same basic case I can't see a big advantage. At best it would have ballistics in the ball park with the 9.3 x 64 Brennecke.
On another note, we lost Larry Brace to cancer this week. He was a member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild, a fine artisan, and friend. I'm lucky enough to have a rifle that he did the metal work on and will cherish it even more. He loved Africa and had taken the "Big 5". Loved thier home. Going into the living room was like stepping back into the late 1800's. A gentleman's abode right down to the elephant tusk on either side of the fireplace!
Another local Oregon talent is Bob West of P.O. Ackley fame. He's in bad shape and will probably be our next loss.
Brian, will hit you with a private e-mail. Have a bit of info for you on what is being sent "over there".
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 07:16:16 (ZULU)
Rich
Rich Johnson
Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 12:53:54 (ZULU)
Brogers
Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 13:23:22 (ZULU)
Opening Tampa again? Bad idea then, worse now. This is typical ethnocentric thinking by our esteemed seniors...be nice, and that will be taken by the masses as a sign of goodwill on our part. Sounds good to folks who spend their cash on extravagent luxuries abck in the giant PX...but how does it sell in Iraq? Hmmm. Weakness. That's how. Remember the culture for the love of pete! It is a patriarchal society. It ain't the USofA. Men run the show, top to bottom. Dad is a demi god in the house, and manhood is defined as a strength and power. It is commonly asserted in the form of intimidation and/ or violence of varying degrees. That is the culture in simple terms. Martial Law is the expected response to this level of violence by the terrorists. God (Allah) love these folks---they get it in simple military terms. So what do we give them? Less action? Yeah, that'll show our resolve!
We should coordinate martial law country-wide. Curfews, limited mobility and stepped up patrols/ sweeps/ raids/ et-al. This they would understand and applaud. Our planners have Americanitis of the brain, IMHO. The entire population "thinks" we should do more (except the bad guys---they love shit like this)---and instead we keep backing off. Kinda makes them think, "maybe the BGs have the true power..." Hmmm again: Power= respect. That is just how they are raised.
Where are the thinkers? These folks want the bad to stop (mostly). We made this same mistake on a larger scale in April when we handed Fallujah over to the terrorists as a nice friendly solution. And of course we were seen as pussies by the average Iraqi. I bet that alone was great for recruiting on the other side. Yet, these things continue....and I am baffled at our stupidity.
Blood bath is right. I was there before the prohibition and after---sure was nice not worrying about rolling VBIEDs while it lasted...eh?
We are trying to be accomodating. Only problem is, we are applying "our" take on what is accomodating. Iraqis have a slightly different outlook....and we seem to be unable to grasp that at the strategic level.
Grrrrr. So frustrating...
On the lighter side....it is forty degrees warmer and snowing:))
Joe M.
Joe Mahon
Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 19:14:16 (ZULU)
Topic: Shooting the enemy when the media is there filming, from a friend in the system:
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/10Jan05.html
(or click on my name)
Similar problem to what civilian law enforcement officers have to deal with, with similar (lawful) solutions.
Seems well thought-out to me...
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, January 20, 2005, at 21:43:30 (ZULU)
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Friday, January 21, 2005, at 04:27:24 (ZULU)
You have mail.
Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Friday, January 21, 2005, at 14:38:59 (ZULU)
joe mahon
Friday, January 21, 2005, at 17:48:15 (ZULU)
Something is out of wack here. Having spent 6 years as a Zoning Official/Zoning Enforcement Officer this stinks. When an area is Re-Zoned from one Zoning clasification to another it's doesn't STOP the existing lawful activity that's been going on.
IE: Change from an Agricultural District to a Residential District all the farming in the former AG district can't be forced to close. The farms are now "Grand fathered" uses. The limits of the "New" clasification is that no "New" farms can be created and the "Old" farms can not be expanded. As long as farming does not cease for over 1 year the "old" farms keep right on farming.
For the "range" all that means to them is they couldn't "expand" the range to new land not already in use. IE: You couldn't expand the range from say 12 firing lanes to 20 firing lanes or extend the lanes from 100 yards to 200 yards. The range becomes a "Grand Fathered" Use. And even then it's not "cut in stone" because the range or farm could seek a "Variance" from the Zoning Board for expansion.
Zoning can NOT stop an existing lawful activity (whole lot of Case Law on this point) it only prevents a New activity from being started or an existing activity from expanding.
TreverSlyFox
Houston, Missouri, USA - Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 01:18:49 (ZULU)
TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 01:31:24 (ZULU)
Well, started a new job in October (teaching K-8. Whew!). Anyway, I am now in the market for my first "high end" 1911. I was curious as to your recommendations/impressions of my "candidates". Now first let me say there are some things I definitely want and do not want. Here are the criteria..
Heinie slant pro rear with tritium front
Solid trigger (don't like the holes...never have)
No MIM
No ambi safety
NO forward cocking serrations (God I hate 'em)
blended S&A magwell
Maybe serrations on frontstrap (or most likely "naked")
Now that kind of narrows things down a bit. I was considering the Springfield "Professional" or maybe the "Talon" (they are willing and able to make the changes I want) from Nighthawk customs. Nighthawk is 4 (or is it 5) of the former Wilson master smiths that have left Wilson's and formed their own shop. I'm also considering a RRA. My other alternative is a custom build (although, I'm an impatient SOB, and am afraid the wait will literally kill me). I was thinking of someone like Randy Adams at Fireblade systems (http://www.firebladesystems.com)
Does anyone know of his work? Any suggestions?
Oh yeah, the gun will be a range/IDPA queen. Until I get out of occupied MD, CCW is out of the question.
Rich
Rich S.
MD, - Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 02:59:55 (ZULU)
Thank-you for your feedback on the AR-30 and AR-50. Pat
Pat
Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 03:38:55 (ZULU)
I'm already crazy, and I already have six kids. What's it gonna hurt?
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 15:45:25 (ZULU)
Someone could really misread your paragraph LOL!!!!!!
"Well, started a new job in October (teaching K-8. Whew!)."
"Anyway, I am now in the market for my first "high end" 1911."
Not planning on shootin the younguns already are you??????
Bolt
yucky sinuses and weather in........., NC, - Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 19:20:51 (ZULU)
R
Rich S.
Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 22:03:43 (ZULU)
DBCooper
NEPA, US of A - Saturday, January 22, 2005, at 23:44:33 (ZULU)
2 questions here:
1) I have decided to look into the Sniper Tools ACI. Up to this point I have used a Slope Doper and a spirit level….. Guess what . . . . it’s 2005. Time to look into MODERN TECH.
ACI – Pro/Con
What did they do to upgrade it? On another board they said
“We have upgraded our Angle Cosine Indicator.
Please feel free to visit our web site and take a look.
http://www.snipertools.com/aci_closeup.htm”
I replied and got no answer so I thought I ask here if anyone knew and their Pros/Cons.
Next – Which mounting system Badger on the rail or on the scope?
2)A quick question if I might for all those that write their own training manuals and course outlines.
What format or templates do you find works best for the LEO audience?
Thanks for your time and help - It’s appreciated!!!
DBCooper
DBCooper
US of A - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 00:05:14 (ZULU)
I shoot a match every year with some angled shots, HA, and I use a mildot master with a string and a washer. I don't win, or even finish in the top 10, but it ain't cause of misreading the angles. Save your money or better yet, buy that much more ammo and go shoot some angle shots over 400 yards. The gadgets of this game aren't usually the solution to my problem. YMMV.
John
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 01:15:36 (ZULU)
I like gadgets as much as the next guy - I'm an engineer who owns more than one Palm Pilot, and two XM satellite receivers - but that's one I don't need. The guys who beat me at the Allegheny Sniper Challenge didn't do so because they had ACIs and I didn't. And I'll still be using my Mildot Master this year.
I dislike saying that, because I like the inventor, Ward Brien, who I think is a smart guy and knows a lot about shooting, but that's my opinion. I think the same thing about Brand Cole, but I don't own a Prometheus, either.
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 03:21:46 (ZULU)
" <snip>....didin't affect radar ballistics at all.....har har."
You know what *does* affect the radar ballistics? Y'ain't gonna believe it, but it's a cosine correction factor! If the approaching vehicle isn't coming straight at the radar, the indicated speed is lower than the actual speed of the vehicle. Divide the indicated speed by the cosine of the approach angle to get the actual speed.
It may not hold up in court, but that's the physics of the situation! Or do the modern radars have the correction built in?
Mike
BMG Mike
AUSTX, - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 03:55:34 (ZULU)
Lurk Mode OFF
I developed one of the first laser speed guns used by police for a company called Kustom Signals and we did not have a cosine correction built in and neither did the handheld radars at that time. It was easy enough to calculate if you knew the angles.
The radar and the laser both measure the speed that the target is approaching your position.
I am working part time now on putting together a development plan for a passive cross wind detector for long range shooting. Limitation is that it can only be used in daylight. Night use requries an active laser. Still, in daylight, it has the potential to correct for windage "at each point" between you and the target proving a "continuous windage adjustment".
I will be attending the Shot Show for the first time this year if anyone on the Roster is interested in discussing a fieldable cross wind system (electronic mirage reader) send me an email and we can tie up. I will be staying at Circus Circus. I also developed a cant detector that mounts to any scope to detect when you are off horizonal by more that .5 degrees and puts a little light off axis in your scope to let you know. Damm thing failed during a demo at Benning last year because I left the battery on all night and I have not had a chance to get an automatic battery saver circuit worked out so that could not happen again. The sniper school cadre were not all that keen on humping even a few more ounces in the field, but it would be great for training, especially on uneven ground or in off hand, etc. Might be more important in the field for the 338 or 50 shooters at longer ranges.
Resume LURK
Mark1@tacticalsensors.com
Mark
Atlanta, - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 05:47:06 (ZULU)
1. Using the Ar-50's 30" tube can you get 2680fps from the 750gn A-max? If not, what is best velocity you can expect to see? Has anyone using this bullet noticed any quirks with it's use such as seating length?
2. Has anyone had any significant accuracy problems using surplus IMR-5010? Is it worth dropping the extra coin on BMG50 or the ultra slow VV powders?
3. Any opinions contrasting the Barnes 750gn VLD vs the 750 A-max? How about the 800 Barnes? Any other real options? I prefer a lead cored bullet, but it's not a show stopper.
On the positive side, three more good insurgents were created the day before last. One of the teams caught them setting up an IED, so engaged with the Barret and blew one dudes arm off. He got about no where(maybe 10m movement) before getting centered by the guy with the M40a3. There were two more and one got blasted in the leg by the M40 shooter as he was hitting defilade. They were run to ground and killed with M16 and SAW fire by the security element. The barret gunner took out their truck so they could not get away. Message to overweight hadjis: running away from Marines on foot will not save you. Asshats were in process of setting in 6 122mm shells. We burned their truck as a message to others.
Now if all Iraqi stories could have the same happy ending...
S/F...Ken M
Ken M
Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 07:36:13 (ZULU)
Thanks
BMG Mike - ".......Y'ain't gonna believe it, but it's a cosine correction factor! If the approaching vehicle isn't coming straight at the radar, the indicated speed is lower than the actual speed of the vehicle. Divide the indicated speed by the cosine of the approach angle to get the actual speed."
I'm not trying to be a smart ass .... can you prove this with an example??? I'd just like to see where you're coming from.
DBCooper
DBCooper
US of A - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 10:29:26 (ZULU)
It must be built in cause the ticket I got in Texas from a county officer was exactly right and he was goin the other way.
John
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 11:23:47 (ZULU)
Brogers
Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 15:48:56 (ZULU)
Yeah, we had to learn all that in radar school. But, I have found it easier to just set up somewhere where I can get them as they straighten up coming out of a curve. Then I don't have to explain it to some cretin wearing a robe only because he's a big contributor to some political party. You start explaining cosines to some and it's like explaining Vivaldi to yer dog. And don't EVEN try to tell them that you can get a radar paint off your rear view mirror.....sheesh. If you get stopped by DPS, just accept your fate. Those guys eat their own young.
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 16:16:52 (ZULU)
Its been a while, I hope everyone had a great new year. Just was think about getting a ballistic program and thought you all might have some sugestions on what type to get. I am shootting .308 in a savage 10FP I am sure that will not matter but just so your in the know. Thanks. Jarriet
Jarriet D. Mitchell
Morrisville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 17:00:09 (ZULU)
The radar is only going to be able to show you the speed as relative to your position.
This means that if you are moving with your radar target it’s only going to show the difference in your 2 speeds. So if I’m driving at 50 and a car passes me at 70 the radar will show the speed of 20 mph. Police car radars now are able to tell what their relative sped is and add the extra 50 mph to come up with the 70… or if headed in the opposite direction the total would be 120 and then would subtract the 50 to get the 70.
The angles.
Hope you understood the first part.
When you’re in physics you learn all about what is called vectors. A vector (for simplified use) is just taking something at a slope/angle and breaking into components at right angles. One of those right angles is straight towards you the other is at a right angle to that (going to your side). (Think you can do wind the same way in finding your wind drift all you care about is the wind at a right angle to the bore.) The radar will find the speed of the Vector headed straight at you but not the one headed to the side. Now for a math example that you might be able to follow. I don’t have a calculator with me so I have to use a 45 degree triangle
The sides are each 50
The Hypotenuse is 70.7
In this example the car (or whatever is being shot with the radar) is going at a speed 70.7
The radar will give you the # of 50 because it can only give you the component of the velocity going straight towards you or away from you.
Hope this all made sense
Zac
UT, - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 17:29:22 (ZULU)
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller
CA, - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 18:03:10 (ZULU)
ANY HELP on my quick question would be appreciated.
if I might for all those that write their own training manuals and course outlines.
What format or templates do you find works best for the LEO audience?
Thanks for your time and help - It’s appreciated!!!
DBCooper
DBCooper
US of A - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 18:24:42 (ZULU)
Like I've said before, I have an AR50 and I'm very pleased with it. I don't have a chrony so I don't have any data available on velosity. I do use the 50 BMG powder. I don't recall the amount I use but I get enough accuracy to hit a 5"x12" target with frequency at 400 yrds. I will soon try it out past that range when the weather improves. It's been suggested that the 5010 works for the tracer ammo and the 50 MBG might not be hot enough to ignite them.
It's also said that the armour piercing ammo is more accurate than the ball ammo. Both are around 670 to 700 grains if memory serves me.
I bought the dies and press and load my own so I'll be able to adjust all that as I continue to learn what the "Beast" will do. It's loads of fun to shoot but not to carry. It weighs 33 pounds naked and has a brake on it that looks like it should go on a 155 barrel. What you shoot in it will be determined by what you shoot I guess. All the match grade stuff will cost about $3.00 to $3.50 each and the surplus and "pulled" bullets are about $.15 each and the loaded stuff is about $1.50 a shot. You'll have a lot of fun with it though.
Good luck and be careful.
Indiansinger
Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 19:12:06 (ZULU)
Good work on the radar discussion. I don't know if Zac's discussion counts as "proof" in anyone's book, but he's given the same facts that I would have used in a "proof".
I'm sure that radar gunners are trained to set up so as to record the highest possible speed (which is the actual speed of the vehicle (or difference if the radar is moving) - a head-on shot at the vehicle. I've seen some setups which just have to give a lower reading than the actual speed. Since I tend to drive with a bit of a heavy foot, I've not bothered to tell them that they are missing some speeders with their setup.
Going to court with a big discussion on trigonometry and principles of doppler radar is a sure way to piss off the man in black - no matter which side you are on. If the radar reading says you are speeding, you are gonna be found guilty.
I just think it is surprising how many places a cosine correction shows up when you dig into things.
Mike
BMG Mike
AUSTX, - Sunday, January 23, 2005, at 23:51:50 (ZULU)
I have a surefire speeding ticket avoidance strategy - I never exceed the de facto speed limit, and rarely the de jure speed limit. Works everywhere.
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 00:10:59 (ZULU)
I also have an AR-50 and it is a great rifle. Shot a nice 1 3/8" 5-round group at 300 today with my own handloads using the 750gr AMAX.
The AMAX is the bullet to go with for accuracy. Bore riders take a special chamber for max benefits.
I have a chrono but haven't used it yet to get a speed for my load. Will get that the next time I shoot for sure.
Tim
Portland, OR, - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 00:38:07 (ZULU)
Give me a call about 375 brass, ph # is on my website.
Rob
Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 00:47:08 (ZULU)
Brogers
Monday, January 24, 2005, at 03:45:13 (ZULU)
An engineer that speaks Latin? Holy smokes! hehe
I always figure if I get a ticket it's my fault for going too fast. Of course, I haven't had one since I was in Germany in the mid eighties. I've written a few since then, but still not as many as my boss would like. ;)
How in the heck did everyone get talking about radars anyhow???? Isn't this supposed to be a snipe hunting forum?
Jim
JimT
Monday, January 24, 2005, at 04:34:38 (ZULU)
Rob Opp
Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 04:39:06 (ZULU)
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 12:22:15 (ZULU)
http://www.compfused.com/directlink/594/
Thought this may make Monday a little better. Take care
Jared
Jared Hunter
Lake Travis, Tx, USA - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 14:12:29 (ZULU)
Now you know why Dillon created his reloading machines and owns a reloading company. I wonder how many times a year he has to change barrels, or would that be how many times a month?
Byron
CA, USA - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 14:30:20 (ZULU)
Are you the same Gooch that co-authored a sniper training manual that I saw in the Tacticle supply catalog?
Doug
Doug Sickels
Monday, January 24, 2005, at 15:27:58 (ZULU)
DBCooper
DBCooper
US of A - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 15:50:18 (ZULU)
Seriously, DB, welcome aboard.
Ken M: Prayers answered times three. Keep rockin' the shitbags.
Joe M
Joe Mahon
Monday, January 24, 2005, at 16:32:07 (ZULU)
Radar and trig classes. I love this place! I have something that is not scientific at all: I slow down more often than not, only to round a corner into a speed trap. I have a lead foot, no points, and a wife who can't understand my dumb luck. Heheh.
Joe M
joe mahon
Monday, January 24, 2005, at 16:47:17 (ZULU)
Sarge
www.shotshow.tv
Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 20:59:13 (ZULU)
There was some mention of 'exploding Tikkas earlier...
BERETTA RECALL OF SAKO, TIKKA RIFLES NEARLY COMPLETE . . . A limited number of recently delivered Sako and Tikka stainless steel rifles have been recalled due to a problem discovered in the steel used in the barrels. The lowest serial number affected by this recall is 419140 and the highest serial number affected is 461951; however, only a small percentage of rifles within this range of numbers is being recalled. In addition, no rifle shipped before February 2004 is involved in the recall. Because only a limited number of recently shipped rifles are involved in the recall, customers being asked to return their rifle are being contacted directly. Although the recall is nearly complete (99% of rifles affected by the recall in the U.S. have already been returned or are in the process of being returned), if you have a stainless steel Sako or Tikka rifle within the serial number range listed above, received by you after February 28, 2004, and you want to check and determine whether it is being recalled, please call 1-800-503-8869. If you have received a written or telephonic recall notice, please follow the instructions for returning the recalled product contained in that notice.
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Some Town, Some State, US of A!!!! - Monday, January 24, 2005, at 21:21:10 (ZULU)
Well you can't leave one round in the box. So I am looking for something along the 125 yard wall to shoot when I notice a push pin I left in the cardboard. I thought what the hell and was pleasantly suprised when I made it vanish.
I think this rifle and me can be friends. Now for a nice day and the longer range shooting.
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Tuesday, January 25, 2005, at 05:46:46 (ZULU)
To solve said problem, SOCOM has directed that FN (in Herstal) should immediately cash a check for $634,000 and begin production towards fulfilling a contract just signed. The production shall be in the FN plant in Columbia, South Carolina.
The contract with Fabrique National is an “indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity” type. This weapon, the SCAR-H, is reportedly supposed to replace both the M14 and the Mk11 (ratgun).
This is in response to testing performed at NSW (Crane), in which the FN entry was chosen in November of last year.
The improvements listed dwell on modularity, but also are reported to include “less weight, increased lethality, reduced maintenance and logistics burdens”. That’s a tall order. Especially since three barrel lengths per stick are specified, to go from CQB to DM role.
The order also includes the SCAR-L, the 5.56 NATO version (note, no 6.8 version), which is intended to replace the M4A1 and Mk12.
Does this spell the end of the M14 in our military?
Could be. That remains to be seen.
Does this spell the end of the ratgun in our military?
I don’t know, but we can always hope.
Bravo
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, at 16:02:32 (ZULU)
Blake's training: Rifle maintenance revisited. I gave him a year's worth of hands on; and he seemed to absorb it thoroughly. I even made him a little checklist. As he noticed some spread while printing groups with two new loads, he found a slightly loose screw on the front ring. Never did check the action screws. Heheh. Toward the end of the season, I went over his gun for him...loose ain't the word---barely hanging on was more like it. Good lesson. The disappointment he had really reinforces the need for complete inspections. Not to just stop at the first problem. The really funny part is, I know I've probably done the same thing (knowing better) at times.
At home with a cold. Petri dishes with legs strike again!
Bravo, we see the M16 family differently, eh? Maybe my familiarity breeds comfort...
Conscientious objectors crack me up. They never seem to object to benefits, now do they? This latest guy at Benning went the first time, now all of a sudden he is against killing. Fine, I say; let him peel potatoes. But wait! Not good enough it seems---he doesn't want to go at all! Could it be he has "other reasons" that he might confuse with a moral objection? You betcha!
I remember Ranger school (like yesterday--eh, Kevin?)--where a otherwise decent candidate just "quits" mentally. Nuthin' you can do, except know that this will be his path in life. It gets easier to do once started. The fear of breaking rode thru my head a few times, but it motivated me. Lessor quitters will do this on runs---the guys who fade away, but aren't really showing the signs of stress yet. On the two-miler, I can judge my time/ potential by how far I go while retching towards the end. 1/2 mile is a really good time, 1/4 is pushing but not quite maxing the potential, etc. Last time, I "maxed" my age group---but did not hit the wall at all. I could have done much better. It is mostly mental, as are most tough things. OK, so now we are starting to face "round two" in increasing numbers. I know how I feel about it---I pray Ken M and his crew success in a vain hope to avoid another go round. I suppose I could retire...probably would be seen as "smart"---but I can't help but to think: "quitter" when I think of that. So, we all face fears and hurdles first in our mind. Some of us pass the test, others think themselves into defeat before the game begins. Yet another victory for Darwin's theories, IMHO.
The greatest challenge of my days "in charge" or supporting fellow students was trying to convey this simple concept of "thinking your way through." See it, believe it. years ago--I got a dream shot as a young buck sergeant to try the ranger course. Months ahead of D-day--I convinced myself through repetition that the tab was all-important, nothing more so in life. Over and over. I do not know how many times when it was cold, wet and painful that this thought popped back in my head and dug up some hidden reserve...
I'll be damned if I know how to teach it though. Only a few respond to it, and who is to say they hadn't figured it out on their own already?
Sinister (or any mil-types): Deleted reference. Turns out the info I was asking for I shouldn't be asking for....or some such stuff.
Joe M
Joe Mahon
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, at 16:55:19 (ZULU)
Sometimes fate delivers us into situations where we must “do or die”. Naturally most try to avoid such situations. Unnaturally some of us have volunteered for such tests. The mind is indeed the key. Some of us have seen it; guys who are otherwise fit and capable give up while physically lesser men drive on.
I discovered a couple years ago that hitting the wall could happen. In spite of that I still long for the tests.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 25, 2005, at 19:28:35 (ZULU)
I'd also like to hear general impression of the stock, bad, good, etc.. anyone know fair market value or have one for sale?
medicjim
Tuesday, January 25, 2005, at 19:33:04 (ZULU)
My question is this: Why when I put it on the bench, it shoots 1.5 inches left? I mean I really don’t care cuz I put 4 out of 5 rounds in the same hole with the last round less then a half inch out but I am curious since when I put the weapon back in my shoulder it shoots right on again…Just wondering
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 01:52:30 (ZULU)
Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 03:58:02 (ZULU)
Seems like list traffic has come to a standstill. Hmmm, may have something to do with the SHOT Show?
On your take about new calibers/rifles/demise of the M14, etc.
I'm sorry, but I don't see the Mousegun going away. Either it, or the 5.56x45 (.223 Rem) round. Way to much money invested and stores of ammo, etc. Can't tell what is left, because no one knows how much was put into "protected" war stocks. That and if that status was violated during the past decade or so.
The '16 is still a viable weapons platform. Change of caliber? Perhaps. Time will tell. I just don't see us going to the 6.8 or anything else. Remember, it's the quest to make the M16 "better" that has caused all this. The better sights, heavy barrrel, and faster twist took what was a lethal round and ruined it. Should have stayed with the 55 grainers and a 1:12"/14" twist.
The services (especially the USMC) had to turn it into a match gun. They did an admirable job...I was already shooting solid expert, but my scores jumped another 10-12 points with the A2 version. The Corp's Weapons Training Battalion, Quantico, Va., has that mind set and until we get some people that have a better vision it will remain thus.
The M-4 was a logical evolution, and a good one, but they stayed with the fast twist and 62 gr. penetrator bullet. A combination doomed, IMHO, from the gitgo...
The M-14, while a wonderful platform, is outdated. Yes, it's effective, but parts availability and maintenance is lacking. I'll put my money on some of the AR-10 types to replace it as a Designated Marksman's Rifle. Time will tell.
I'm rambling, so will say g'night.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 05:55:41 (ZULU)
beats me why everyone has to go bloody bigger. the 5-25x range is usable but i'd have liked to have seen a 42 or a 44mm objective and not a bloody 56.
Well i went out stalking tother morning. i pulled into a track off the country road and parket the jeep,. bugger me if there wasn't a deer about 150m down the track, i could see it pretty well as there was a light covering of snow on the ground. it was right where i wanted to be to get in a tree stand. I debated the idea of shooting it where it was, but decided that i wanted a bit more of a sporting shot, and besides the bqack stop was a bit questionable. eventualy it wandered off, it was almost light and i could see deer bedded out in the field, bugger, no chance of getting to the stand. so i made along the track as far as i could get at a crouch and covered the last 50m or so by crawling. i had gotten to within 10 meters of a possition from which i could have shot at the deer with an angle giving me the hill as a back stop, 2 buck kids came out of the bushes up the track and proceeded to wander in my direction, they got within about 10 yards of the strange slug like creature on the track and decided they didn't like what they saw. They bolted into the field, spooking the bedded deer and the stalk was blown. bugger.
Yesterday afternoon we had a deer drive. We got into strategicaly positioned tree stands and we had 2 beaters walk through copses and through the woods and fields. I hadn't been up the stand long when i saw a group of deer , they where about 600m away skylined on a hill, heading for one of the other hunters. he shot and they hightailed it the other way, another shot fell about 10 minutes later. 2 deer came bolting across the field in front of me but they where to far and to fast. there where a few more shots about and then eventualy about 12 deer, lead by a doe came down from the crest of the hill, crossed the road jumped the fence and came in my direction across the rough ground to my left. I studdied them through the bino's deciding on which to shoot. they eventualy trotted in front of me at a distance of maybe 100m. I singled out a female kid and dropped her with the 9.3, instead of bolting the deer trotted round in a circle to maybe 150 m distance, so i shot another, this time a yearling doe, she dropped at the shot and the deer didn't seem to know where the shooting was from, they milled back and forth, i could easily have shot another, but as we had to shoot 4 to fill the cull plan i figured shooting more than 2 was bieng greedy, so i clapped my hands and waved about trying to get the deer to bolt towards another waiting gun. they disapeared through the woods back up the hill.
at the end of the day it was only me who had shot anything all the others had missed.
I'm beggining to think the hunters in the village like to have thier beer and schnapps provided for them more than they like to shoot game, thats twice in 3 weeks that ive been "Jagd Konig" or the bloke who shot the most, and as such its up to me to provide the beer and schnapps again !!!
I'm happy as larry still with this 9.3, thats the 6th head of game ive shot with it, and its been in sets of two each time.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 13:14:29 (ZULU)
Brogers
Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 13:44:58 (ZULU)
Brogers
Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 14:28:26 (ZULU)
You're not "bending" the barrel. The amount of torsion you would put on the AR-15 barrel, whether on a sling or a rest is not enough to cause that amount of POI change at that distance. The difference is more likely in the way your body/rifle recoils in the different positions. When you shoot prone, what does it do? When I shoot prone, the POI is considerable different from when I bench the rifle, which is why I hardly ever shoot from a bench anymore. I have noticed a dearth of benches in the field.
And, before I get a lot of flack about the bending issue, I've shot NM service rifle for years. The reason for the free-float tubes is not to prevent "bending" the barrel. If one could "bend" the barrel the same exact way from shot to shot, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that you don't put the exact amount of pressure on the tube all the time, from shot to shot. And, as your arm tires, you make subtle changes in the way you mount and hold the weapon. The result is a scattering of shots all over the target. If you are getting consistant shot groups that small, then that is not the problem.
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 16:09:55 (ZULU)
Sir Wes, traffic ain’t my cup of java lately. I’ve been too busy doing other stuff. Sorry ;-)
I think there may be some slight confusion on what I posted last. I’m not slamming the mousegun, in that post I didn’t even address them other than to say that supposedly the SCAR-L will be a “replacement”. If that ever happens, which I somewhat doubt. I’m slamming the ratgun.
Like you, I see the ’16 chassis and the 223 continuing on into my retirement years, which at this rate may be approximately three years after my physical death. The gist of my statement on the 6.8 was that it seems to be a dead issue.
I agree completely with your assessment of the A1 vs A2 and ammo as well. I couldn’t / haven’t said it better myself.
On the M4 however, I tend to slightly disagree. I believe that this is the ultimate evolutionary direction of the M16 design, and that it’s “a good thing”. The twist really doesn’t interest me. I’ve fired acceptable groups with 55 grainers using a 1:12, 1:9, and 1:7. Given my choice, I’d choose the 1:7, for scavengability. However, if I were to be shooting 62 grainers exclusively, I would have had to been in a scavenger scenario for a while.
We agree on the ’14 as well. I’m not saying that it’s economically realistic to bring it back. What I’m saying is that the ratgun isn’t the answer in my opinion. Yes, it has lots going for it. It has some major draw backs as well. I don’t see the end tally being positive.
Very similar to the “it used to be a” service rifle competition. You can dress a ratgun up for competition, and based on scores and the fact it’s a semi with a magazine, call it a good DMR. But Camp Perry is every bit as valid an indicator of how a particular design will work in field conditions as a trout is a valid indicator of which bicycle to purchase.
At least that’s my take on it ;-)
Bravo
Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 16:19:35 (ZULU)
My problem with the change in barrel twists, on the '16, is that it changed the lethality of the round. Other than that it's a good platform.
Pete, So, S&B is going to do a variable to 25X with a 56mm objective?
Who do they think they are, Leupold? Seems the scope folks have found that magnification sells.
The 56mm is not an objective. It the bottom of a beer/soda can! Like you I'd like to see the 40-42-44mm objective. You just have to mount the 56mm's to high. Wonder what these little gems are gonna sell for...
Congrats on being "jagd konig". It's a tough job, but someone has to do it. Could be spendy...
All for now.
Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 17:16:23 (ZULU)
Zac
ut , - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 20:46:59 (ZULU)
I think the current line of thinking is that the 1:12 twist came matched to the 55 gr ball ammo. When the switch was made to the 1:7 twist and 62 gr ball ammo, the bullets required a higher velocity at the point of impact to 'fail', producing the fairly impressive wounding characteristics.
Next, we dropped the barrel length, reducing the start point of the velocity... The 11.5 inch barrel on the CAR, when combined with the fast twist and 62 gr bullet, begins to produce 'pencil' wounds within 100 yards... Somolia is where this phenomenon was first noticed.
The most recent incarnate...the 77 gr HPBT matched with the 14" 1:7 twist M4 has us back to acceptable performance and a relatively nimble weapon weight and length.....
The only problem is... most folks are still being issued the 62 gr loadings...
medicjim
Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 21:37:44 (ZULU)
When I shoot with out the bench I hold my left hand on my pickup's box and rest the weapon on that arm.
When I shoot off a bench (rarely with this weapon) I have a cabellas foldable bench and some "T" looking device with a "V" in the back of it to hold the butt of the gun. The front is supported by the front "T" looking thing with a very small bag on it...No pressures are on the weapon that I can notice to change my POI.
when I shoot w/out the bench I hit where aiming...with in 2 inches or so but where my POA is. WHen off of the bench, my POI is 1.5 high and 1.5 left of my POA...Like I said, shoots great just wondering why it has a different POI from off the bench.
Thanks and sorry for confussion!!!!!!!
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 22:33:12 (ZULU)
Winchester brass. CCI 200 primer. 45.5 of Varget LOA 2.840
I have shot .48 with the 168 A-max but need to do a little more work with it.
Click my name to see group.
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 23:18:21 (ZULU)
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 23:21:31 (ZULU)
* Bigger is better
* Bigger means more usable light
* More light equals better images
And that they can purchase lower quality glass in 56mm size and achieve, for their purpose, acceptable images which is cheaper than buying high quality smaller size lenses to get the same or better quality image.
Ask the ladies if size matters. It may in some cases but I believe that quality is more important. My mind has drifted, what are we discussing again?
Byron
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 23:22:25 (ZULU)
One advantage of being a not-so-good-shooter is that no matter what twist barrel I shoot and no matter what weight boolit, I still shoot the same crappy groups. God created 30 round and Beta mags for us type of shooters! Ya just keep shootin til you hit sompin or run out of ammo. I do know that I don't like the XM 11.5" barrel with the 4.5 flashhider on it. I can only imagine that it was designed as a 11.5" pistol rifle without a hider, then aborted to create a civilian POS rifle with a hider.
Have an excellent smith working on my Colt HBAR Target Elite. Doing all sorts of good stuff to it including a new Badger handguard. Called me tonight and said it was ready. Gonna use it for a no wind 600 yard F-class thing.
When I grow up, maybe I'll get the hang of this stuff. Bolt out!
Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 23:34:29 (ZULU)
Ron, Nice rig! Is that the Duramax stock? Jody Calhoun and I are working on a pair of custom Savages in 6.5x.284 for a series of articles on SavageShooters.com. I'm new to the Savage Phenomenon as well, and so far I'm pretty impressed. I kinda like the accutrigger, even if it does remind me of Glock.
Rob
Robert Martin
Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 23:38:24 (ZULU)
That is a Dura max. I purchased it from Midway. Cost was just under a hundred bucks with my C&R discount. It was drop in fit, has aluminum bedding and was much stiffer than the factory stock. Also has a decelorator pad on them. Mine needed a light sanding along the right barrel channel. about 5 min work. I like it for the man on a budget, Like most firefighters, it is a good stock.
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 00:03:06 (ZULU)
It's hard to find a colminator (screen type) that will allow use in AR's because of the greater distance between the scope and the barrel. If you place the bore sighter in a conventional rifle and put pressure between the scope and the barrel or pinch the stock and barrel at the end you can see how easily it is to bend a barrel. However I believe I said bend the "rifle". Now that would be a small point except for the fact that certain things happen between the front sling attachment and the action on the AR series. Several things that involve the bolt lockup and gas tube and gas velocity. as well as action of the gas piston. All these things can add up against you. However in the case mentioned it seems a little unlikely that major problems would result with a hard sling position. Simply laying the rifle on your arm as opposed to as different kind of rest seems a bit unlikely but we are left with the fact that "something" is the cause of it.
Brogers
Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 01:07:33 (ZULU)
I am absolutely confident that there is no compromise on quality what so ever in a modern European 56mm Obj scope when compared to a 42mm scope. The trend for bigger Obj scopes started here years ago when infact the glass quality and coatings in the lenses was not to the standard as it is today, the trend has simply continued and in my mind is a bit of a farce. having a big objective lense lets you keep the magnification up some when compared to a smaller objective with relation to the size of the exit pupil. A typical pig scope here for maybe the last 20 years has been an 8x56, the variables from most of the EU optics manufactureres run along 3-12x56, 2.3 - 10 x56 something like that. The Europeans like big glass, wether they need it or not, they have been bull shitted into this thinking by shooting propaganda driven to a large extent by the manufacturing industry.
Personaly i know for definate that i can hunt at night in 90% of the situations i hunt in with a 6x42 scope from a decent manufacturer. Infact i have the intention to replace the 3-12x50PMII on my 9.3x62 pig rifle with a 1.5-6x42 S&B just as soon as i have the cash. In certain areas of germany it is possible to shoot longish range at fox over snow covered plains, this is about the only situation in which i could invisage a possible need for a larger objective. But i know darn well i could more than make do with a 42mm, The advantage of the 30mm tube is either, you get larger internals in the scope which gives you the possibility of letting more light through it, or you leave the internals the same size as in the 25.4mm tube and you have more adjustment range. what S&B did was go with the larger internal and stick em in a 34mm tube giving us the best of both worlds.
I can fully understand what motivates S&B to produce a 5-25x56 scope in PMII range,they want to grab some of the NXS and hensold market,but PMII is a tactical, police militarty sniper scope, a 56mm Objective lense in such a scope is more of a hinderance than it is an advantage. Now if they produced a 34mm tubed, 4-16 or 5-25 x44 or 42 mm PMII they would be on to a real winner, i have been telling them this nor for what must be 10 years, and then answer i get ist, " our market research team do not see a market for such a scope Mr Lincoln" well if i was Hans Bender i would sack em, and ive told him that too !!I can cope with a 50mm Obj, i think 44mm would be ideal. but i do not want a 56mm on my rifle, Now if you look at rifles and combination guns here in germany you will see that the scopes are set very high in alsorts of mounting contraptions, either the germans have longer knecks than the rest of us or something is wrong, it is one of the reasons that many German hunters are bad shots, we all know the importance of propper cheek weld etc, and after firing / zeroing litteraly hundreds and hundreds of these things i can say that i prefer a low mounted scope. Of course many modern sniper rifles have the advantage of an adjustable cheek piece, so you can mount a helluva big objectived scope on the things and just wind up the stock some, but there has to be a point where size of the scope outweighs any advantages it could possible offer, the disadvantages are, to the sniper anyway, you, due to your higher head possition behind the scope, present more of a target, the chance of the higher profile bieng seen, well, whats easier to see? a football (soccer to you folks) or a tennis ball? the SWS becomes heavier and bulkier, to me these big bulky sniper rifles with the big bulky scopes are a shift towards pure defensive sniping. agressive attack sniping and scouting surely demands a more compact, easily carried rifle and scope combination.
I shall make my thoughts on the subject known, once again to the folks in Biebertal, i will inknow get the same answer, but i for one, would go out and place an order today had S&B brought out a 5-25x44 PMII. I shall not order a 56mm obj scope but i will stick with my 4-16x50 and my 3-12x50 PMII's and compliment them witha 1.5-6x42 PM.
Fireman Ron , nice looking rifle.. its a keeper !!
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 13:54:26 (ZULU)
Objective size... I was hunting with a friend a few years back and after the hunt, we were discussing objective size, cost versus return, etc.
I was using a 3x-9 Leupold and he had a 4x-12 Swarovski. He told me to look down his lane (it was dusk so we couldn't hunt) at his gate. I 'could' see it in my scope but not too good. I then looked it it through his scope and it was damned near daylight.
I now have a used Swarovski on MY rifle. I paid more for it than a new Leupold would have cost me and thought I had stolen it!
I did NOT get it for tube size or objective size, but for light transmission. - I also went from a .270 to a .260(6.5).
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 15:07:15 (ZULU)
John
I just sent the Kahles in for repair. It was returned in "as new" condition with a thank you note, no invoice.
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 18:18:16 (ZULU)
i think we can all agree on the quality of the EU scopes. i just wish they would listen to me when it comes to sniper scopes.
bugger i just looked out the control room window, there goes my early night, there is a light covering of snow, i will just have to go stalking piggies,,
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 19:45:26 (ZULU)
i'm confused. Someone edjucate me in the way of the chronograph.
Just got my 1st one. A chrony F1 master. I actually read the instructions (don't know what came over me) and took it out to shoot a few rounds.
Placed it 12 foot from muzzle. overcast day temp 36 F.
Started with the Kimber 45. 185 XTP over 8 grains Unique.
This load will tear a ragged 1.5 inch hole at 25 yards.
When chrono checked it ranged from 628fps to 1042 fps.
Next load checked 200 LSWC over 5.5 231
low 366fps high 395 fps.
I don't believe it could be so low or so much spread on the 1st load.
Next I shot my Savage 308. Here at least things seemed more realistic.
155 A-max over 45.5 Varget. low 2798 high 2825 for 5 shots.
What gives with the 45 testing?
Thanks for any insite.
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 23:05:35 (ZULU)
Bolt
NC, - Friday, January 28, 2005, at 01:05:38 (ZULU)
Brogers
Friday, January 28, 2005, at 01:19:36 (ZULU)
Bolt
NC, - Friday, January 28, 2005, at 01:26:29 (ZULU)
You got almost a full moon if it ain't overcast. You should be able to see 'em pretty well.
I been layin low since finishin in tenth place posting here last year. I couldn't believe I had rambled on that often.
If your friend is gonna be on the east coast, have him contact K. Mussack. He flys with a good bunch in New York. If he's gonna be in the midwest give me shout. Out west??? I'll find somethin.
John
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, January 28, 2005, at 01:58:13 (ZULU)
Brogers
Friday, January 28, 2005, at 03:27:22 (ZULU)
What would make the 200 LSWC loads read so low? I can't think they were actually that slow.
Thanks for the input.
Fireman Ron
Kansas, USA - Friday, January 28, 2005, at 05:33:36 (ZULU)
check out these photos:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/PeteLincoln/meanhog.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/PeteLincoln/hogcarrier.jpg
what a night in the woods, i'm bollocksed, left work at 21.00, het my hunting kit on and didn't get to bed till 05.00. had to get up for work at 06.00. pfew.
i had a lucky night last night.
I saw 3 deer as soon as i had parked the jeep, The forest was a strange silvery colour, off white, hazy, eery. The covering of freshly fallen snow mixed with the ambient light reflecting back off the low cloud over the airport and the moonlight shining down where the bank of cloud ended made for a strange sense of daylight, kind of like i imagine it is in the high north when it doesn't get fully light in the winter.
I let the deer wander off and got out of the jeep, slung the rifle and started my stalk. I decided to work my way back to the meadow that the stream runs through then zig zag my way up wind on game trails and forest tracks.
I slowly made my way through the trees and brush, the fresh snow muffling my steps. Making it all the way to my tree stand at the meadow with the larch trees without seeing any game. I sat the rifle on the extended bipod and knelt at the base of the tree stand. A roe deer appeared about 20 yards to my right but didn't stay long, The wind tends to circle in that corner of the meadow, of course i found that out after i had already built the tree stand, just as well i built it high enough. The deer must have winded me. It didn't matter as i was loaded for boar.
Another 3 deer came slowly browsing across from the far side of the meadow, a buck, a doe and a kid, they made for my salt lick, and appeared to be enjoying it.
I could smell fox, the pungent odour of a dog fox is unmistakeable. Watching the deer untill the wandered back to where they came from, i gut up and stalked across the meadow, the fox scent told me i was following his tracks and in the shorter grass on the game trail i could make out footings in the snow.
I decided i would be as well to follow the fox, his smell would mask my own and i might just catch him up. I followed the scent and the tracks all the way back to my jeep, they made a semi circle around the vehicle at about 6 feet distance. I wondered if my dog, who was sat in the car, had known there was a fox out side, i bet she was wanting at it. The fox tracks followed the forest track and them went of to the left up a smaller track, i stayed on his tail, he was hunting in to the wind and that just suited me. The ground begins to undulale slightly here and he was following the highest part, probably looking down onto the lower lying gaps between the trees hoping to catch a hare unawares.
There was a noise to my front left and a fox darted behind some bushes maybe 50 yards in front of me. i edged forward slowly. I didn't think the fox had seen me, he appeared to be chasing something. I got into a possition where i thought i would be able to shoot at the fox with a safe back stop when he reappeared, i made a squeeking noise, like a caught rabbit. There was immediately a noise of scampering paws to my right, damn a fox, but a vixen. Eh? and then i saw that there where two of them and remembered that it is the back end of the fox rut right now. They where hunting whilst courting. The vixen stood watching me, not sure what i was, she must have figured i was a bush as she hopped of to join her mate without and signs of concern.
I continued to play hide and seek with the foxes for about another 100 yards, never getting the chance of a clear or safe shot. Finaly they figured me out and made off. I got back to the job of pig stalking. I hadn't gone 20 yards when i saw the dark shape of what could only be a wild boar. As usual in an impossible possition for a safe back stop. Then i saw another and another. 3 in total, I knew these 3 pigs, there used to be 4 in this group untill they let their guard down and i got one. now there where 3 little piggies left. Not that they where all that little anymore. I couldn't get a safe shot at the pig i'd selected, the smallest of the 3 and a sow, so i spent about an hour trying to manouver around them as they rooted thier way through the woods. I saw another group of pigs in the distance cross a track, out in force tonight i thought. Finaly i got into a decent possition, i'd cut the pigs of at a tight thicket near a bomb crater, they would have to bottle kneck between the thicket and the crater to carry on thier route of march, and when they did i would get my oppertunity.
My luck was in. As the pigs filed through the selected spot i picked out the one i wanted, waited untill she was slightly out in front and shot her.
She dropped at the shot. To my amazement so did the next pig, which was the largest of the 3, but had been slightly further and about a yard behind when i had shot.
The larger pig was up in a split second, the 3rd had dissapeared. This one was obviously wounded, i couldn't figure out how or where, but she was mad and mean and still fighting fit. she stood there a second but i could only see the snout and the tail as there was a tree between us. Then with a squeeling roar she charged me, I had immages of the film " razor back" flash through my head. Up came the rifle, i swung and instinctively pointed the rifle at the charging pig, no time to use the scope. luckily when i fired she dropped and i had stopped the charge, she meant business and she still wasn't dead, mustering all her aggression and adrenalin for one final stand she stood again. I was about to shoot her once more when she just fell over side ways.
I let out a sigh of relief and pretended not to notice the slight wobble in my knees. It was then that the hard work of recovering both pigs began. By the time i had got them both hung in the cooler back at the Forsthaus it was 04.30 and i was beat. Checking the pigs to see where i had shot them, the smaller one had a broken shoulder on entry and due to the angle the bullet appeared to have just chipped the other side shoulder, which is probably what caused it to exit at an odd angle, the bullet then broke the bottom jaw (plain to see on the photo) of the second pig. What an exciting nights pig stalking though, i can hardly wait to go out again tonight and the 9.3x62 seems to be keeping up its run of doubles, thats the fourth in a row so far.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, January 28, 2005, at 07:23:14 (ZULU)
Great story, as usual. Good shootin as well.
John
good lookin piggys. I love bacon.
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, January 28, 2005, at 09:50:36 (ZULU)
Pete; That's a good hog man. Brought back old memories about a hog charging with jaws snapping down on the Rio Grande....anyway I love the feeling when you finally realize you survived it and the the rush begins. Nothing like it. God I miss being able enough to get out and do that. Don't put it off guys. It goes away.
Brogers
Friday, January 28, 2005, at 13:27:04 (ZULU)
Thanks again for your thoughts and time!!!
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Friday, January 28, 2005, at 19:49:09 (ZULU)
Not only probable but likely, IMO.
John
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, January 28, 2005, at 20:01:05 (ZULU)
Just picked up a lever action 30-30, my first lever action.
What type of cleaning kits/equipment do you guys use on your lever action guns? Assuming some of you have them .....
Duman
Duman
Friday, January 28, 2005, at 23:13:16 (ZULU)
You would probably be amazed at how many of the hawgs own a thutty-thutty lever-action! Yes. I own an old Winchester 94 .30-30. Since you are only going to get "minute of deer" in the accuracy department, I personally can't see getting carried away with the cleaning ritual. The only thing I have ever used on mine is a couple of patches with Hoppe's # 9, A couple of dry ones, and then one with two or three drops of good quality gun oil. When the gun is only fired two or three times a year, I personally don't think it gets too dirty. I will now run for the bomb shelter and try to hide from incoming fire!
Cheers,
Doc
Doc Holloway
The gittin' ready to snow Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 00:34:23 (ZULU)
If any of you folks get Shooting Sports USA I need a copy of the Feb issue. Would be happy to pay the price and shipping. I understand my handsome and charming face was captured at the Nationals and plastered in the mag.
Bolt
Yucky weather on the way....., NC, - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 00:45:54 (ZULU)
Try it again with a high sun angle.
Steve
Butte, MT, 'Merica - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 00:56:06 (ZULU)
The cleaning kits made by Otis are great for weapons that must be cleaned from the muzzle.
Ron
Fireman Ron
Kansas, - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 03:22:02 (ZULU)
I have several lever actions (all Marlins) including a "Thuty, thuty." It is VERY easy to remove the bolt and clean in the usual manner, though NOT as anally...
Sharon
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 03:59:02 (ZULU)
Brogers
Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 04:09:16 (ZULU)
Hogmeister, nice piggies. You are indeed blessed to get so much game. I see that would not be for me...I NEED my beauty sleep!
The new 9.3 x 62 is working well. Love to try my .35 Whelan AI for a compariston. Suspect identical performance. We shall name your new rifle the HAMMER OF THOR.
On the .30/30's. I have two. One is my first rifle, a Marlin Model 336 "Marauder" carbine, now 40 years old and a Marlin Model 36 full size with half length magazine that I am restoring. Great cartridge and rifles.
Very easy to remove the bolt on these. Take the lever off, bring the bolt to the rear until it stops, press in on the side of the extractor and pull the bolt out. No reason to have a dirty action on a Marlin!
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 16:37:34 (ZULU)
Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 16:53:08 (ZULU)
Gooch
Mount Idy, Arkinsaw, US of A - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 16:54:34 (ZULU)
Hows about Hammer of Hog ? ha ha.. the last one, the 450 was the Boar Basher. tell you what though, from my experience i am sure glad that i was carrying the 9.3, i m very convinced that sow would have had me if i had been carrying my 308 or even the 30-06. The charge stopping shot entered the front underside of the kneck and exited behing the front shoulder, the vitals where intakt, i think it was shock and energy of the slightly larger bullet that stopped her.
I was out again all last night and it was darn cold, about -15C. i saw pigs on the way in but had once again no back stop, stalking wasn't possible last night due to the noise factor when all is frozen. The pigs had been at my bait before i got there at 20.00 but i stayed in my stand all night in the hope they would come back.. only saw a deer.. darn.. i guess 3 deer and 2 pigs aint to bad for this weeks total.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 18:13:14 (ZULU)
Mine is a Win. Model 71, .348. If you've never seen the cartridge, imagine a 30-30 only MUCH bigger. I took a 300 lb feral hog down in the Texas Hill Country many years ago with that rifle. Used a 200 gr. Hornady and a healthy dose of H4895. Shot him on the run. He went down like he was pole-axed on the spot. He was broadside to me and the bullet hit at the base of his nose just below the eyes.
Bruce Robinson had a real effection for the 71's as well.
I'm gonna do something here, I normally wouldn't and that's to post an email I received from Bruce. If this is considered improper, I'll pull it. Enjoy......
--
May 23, 2002
Mark,
Damn, we gotta get together for a bowl of my chile and a Negro Modelo cerveza!
First deer I ever got was with a 71, using a 200 gr. Barnes handload, back in NC. Had two, a rifle and a carbine, both victims of my misspent youth. Wish to hell I had either (or preferably both) back. Worse, I turned down a good deal on a 71 that had been converted to .450 Alaskan, the .348 case necked up.
My only consolation:
Got a deluxe 86 (NOT a repro!), about five years ago...... set trigger, fancy wood, etc. in .40-65........but I still long for those 71's!!!!!!! When ya get hooked on them ole Winchesters, heroin addiction begins to look like a bargain.
Best Regards,
Bruce
-------------------------
Doesn't that sound like Bruce? LOL.
Needless to say, I hung on to our correspondence.
LouAnn, hope you don't mind.
Mk4
Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 18:20:48 (ZULU)
The thread waxed and waned, but this particular post made reference to some reading I had meant to check out... I never did get to it, guess I better hit the Library this week.
From Bruce, July 30, 2003
Jim,
What the Afghan women did to captured Brit troops was prolonged and
creative. I think I would have saved the last cartidge for myself.
Have you ever read any of the "Flashman" series? I have them
all, written by a Scot, George MacDonald Frasier, and they are hilarious. The protagonist is an utter poltroon and scoundrel who is involved in every major military debacle of the mid-1800's, and manages to escape with decorations and hero status. At the charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimea, he only charged the Russian battery because his flatulence (brought on by an over-indulgence of champagne the night before, while trying to seduce his Sargeant-Major's wife) frightened his mare, and she ran in the wrong direction.
An absolutely brilliant series, well-researched and well-written.
Bruce, you live on in our memories...
medicjim
Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 18:44:26 (ZULU)
Medic Jim, all -
Bruce's earlier years in college had a pretty good case load of history and world religion studies. Bruce can/could easily give a good dissertation(spelling?) on the roots of what drives the current turmoil in the middle east. My daughter (currently in college) came home a little over a year ago and was griping about getting a religions and culture paper written. I told her to sit down, call 'uncle Bruce' and get him started on religion, etc.... she'll have plenty of writing to do....
Yep - I miss our old Mildot Master too....
take care all -- hello to all @ the shot show....
Prayers for the troops, troopers, and the willpower of the Iraqi's. Let's root for them to pull this off. I'd be willing to bet their success will cause other nations in the mid east to rethink things.
Checkout Egypt...... Others more versed at this stuff than me feel free to chime in....
all for now folks..
Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 19:45:00 (ZULU)
Any help you could give me on changing the email addy that I used to register here would be a big help. I am unable to get internal mail because my email address has changed since registration. Hope you can get out to the match this year.
Rod
Rod Hansen
Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 19:59:10 (ZULU)
Hey give me a call seven oh threee, sevenn niner one, threee oh threee thrreeeee
Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 22:14:51 (ZULU)
Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 22:34:29 (ZULU)
cheers Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 22:59:20 (ZULU)
Rob
Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 01:53:29 (ZULU)
Saw your post about restoring the Marlin. Funny all these posts are going on guess great minds really think alike or i was lucky....anyhow. I have a 336sc that my Grandfather passed down to me that i want to get back to good condition. He tried to improvise and put his own swivel which cracked the forearm. Anyhow...wanna reblue the critter and put new wood on. Were you going to do yours all yourself or are ya having any outside help? Looking for suggestions or recommendations.
If you or any are wondering its in 35 Rem. not exactly a ballistic powerhouse but out to 50 its very accurate and wouldnt be used much except for maybe a deer hunt now and then or the boar hunt i've been thinking about for awhile now.
Other than that the polish machine gun will stay tucked away and the Sendero will be the one bringing back the meat.
Stay safe and warm ya'll.
Marc
USA - Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 03:35:54 (ZULU)
I am back after a long bout between motorcycle, and car. I have missed alot since last July, and it appears condolences are in order. My prayers are with you. I still need to catch up, but there seem to be some changes.
The page still seems to be going strong, and that is good. Thank you all for that.
I have some questions, for some members of the law enforcement communities, and if any of you would be willing to converse with me, I would greatly appreciate it, through email, or on the phone.
'Lito, and Bravo, if you read this, drop me a line, if you would. I would like to speak with you as well.
All the best,
Sean Thomas
Brandon, Mb., Canadia - Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 04:12:55 (ZULU)
A woman was shopping at her local supermarket where she selected a half-gallon of 2% milk, a carton of eggs, a quart of orange juice, a head of romaine lettuce, a 2 lb. can of coffee, and a 1 lb. package of bacon. As she was unloading her items on the conveyor belt to check out, a drunk standing behind her watched as she placed the items in front of the cashier. While the cashier was ringing up her purchases, the drunk calmly stated, "You must be single." The woman was a bit startled by this proclamation, but she was intrigued by the derelict's intuition, since she was indeed single. She looked at her six items on the belt and saw nothing particularly unusual about her selections that could have tipped off the drunk to her marital status. Curiosity getting the better of her, she said "Well, you know what, you're absolutely correct. But how on earth did you know that?"
The drunk replied, " 'Cause you're ugly."
acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 08:48:56 (ZULU)
thanks
Jim Broschart
Glendale, AZ, usa - Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 15:10:41 (ZULU)
HAHAHA! That put a BIG grin on the face!
Moe
Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 16:39:39 (ZULU)
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains;
just roll to your rifle and blow out you're brains, and
go to your Gawd like a soldier!"
You know, when God created Adam and Eve, he gave them the whole Earth to keep and care for for Him. He didn't need work history, credit ratings and collateral. And He dang sure didn't want $20,000 and acre! Try and buy land in Texas near anything civilized, and I'm gonna have to live in a tent for two years. Now, I've done that, but Boudicca might have objections. (sigh) Oh well....
Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 17:53:22 (ZULU)
medicjim
Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 18:15:34 (ZULU)
Rod
Rod Hansen
Vienna, Va, - Sunday, January 30, 2005, at 20:33:17 (ZULU)
I don't see any guidelines for submitting articles for The Accurate Rifle. The website is:
www.theaccuraterifle.com
If you want the snail mail address, I can get that for you.
Jim
JImT
Monday, January 31, 2005, at 00:36:03 (ZULU)
Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, January 31, 2005, at 02:05:39 (ZULU)
ETA: I found the post using the microsoft IE search function. First time for everything!
Sinister, you have mail, N/A.
A local shop that I just found has a Loopy 4.5-10x40 VXIII tactical mil dot, 1" tube on the clearance shelf for $392. What say the hawgs? Good price?
Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, January 31, 2005, at 02:07:24 (ZULU)
thanks
Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Monday, January 31, 2005, at 04:28:36 (ZULU)
Bret J. Christianson
Clear Lake, South Dakota, USA - Monday, January 31, 2005, at 04:54:20 (ZULU)
Marc, liked your thread on the Marlins. I'm try to do the restoration on the Mod 36 30/30 myself. It's going to be hand work, mostly. Stoning and polishing the metal. What it had for a stock I wouldn't even call a stock. Yuck. Have a two piece blank that will take care of that, too. All of this and a tang peep sight.
My 16 1/4" barreled Marlin "Marauder" was my first "tactical" rifle. A 4X scope and 110 grain HP's over a healthy dose of Hi-Vel #2. Now I am dating myself! It accounted for a good number of grey-diggers(ground squirrels) at the tender age of 16. It also started reloading my own ammo...been ALL downhill since then. Should be a warning sign..."Go back it's a trap"! Come to think of it marraige licenses should have a similar warning...;-)
Don't belittle the .35 Rem. It's accounted for a fair amount of game in it's time. It's still a viable cartridge for heavy cover.
Elections today in Iraq...holding my breath...
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Monday, January 31, 2005, at 05:57:21 (ZULU)
Well those Germans at S&B must have been hearing you knocking at their door! I just got back from the SHOT Show and I spent a little time at their booth with Undude. What did I see that you have been telling them to make for five plus years? How about a 34mm 4-16x PMII with a Gen 2 reticle and a 42mm objective!
It is a very nice scope, and it was tough for me not to run off with the damn thing! We drifted off and then went to chat with Dick Thomas at Premier, and they will be making the scopes for S&B.
I kept hearing that they will be "just for military and L.E." at first, and then when production cranks up they will be available for the rest of us, but I want one now!
On a sleazy corporate espionage note, a group of five Asian men in suits were also at the booth looking at the scopes and they were taking very close detailed pictures with their digital camera. It seemed sort of odd at the time, but then when I saw them at the Leupold both, and several other scope company displays doing the same thing, it really disturbed me. I shared my observations with a couple of the corporate representatives, but I don’t know what came of it.
I have never heard of “Light Optical Company” and my cursory google search didn’t produce anything noteworthy, but at the minimum isn’t that pretty un-cool?
The highpoint for me was laughing until my cheeks hurt and tears came to my eyes when one of the Badger/GA men named "Trigger" (Charlie) performed his rapid fire standup routine a couple of times at the the Badger/GA party. He was amazing and truly gifted. I think that I need another demonstration of the "anti-clockwise" movement though.
Meagan from USO was also a live wire that added quite a bit of energy, cleavage, and commentary to the event as well!
Overall a great time and I met a number of great folks. Thank you Marty, George and crew, Frank and Mike.
Michael
Los Gatos , CA, - Monday, January 31, 2005, at 08:17:38 (ZULU)
Didnt mean to imply that the 35 was a bad caliber/cartridge. Just was saying its not exactly the long range tool that gets discussed here often. Once i get mine fixed up i may just have to take it with me on my trek's into the ultra thick bush we have around parts of Pa here. And of course i as i had said it'll be my company if i go after lil piggies too.
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M1A scope issue,
Gents and Ladies got my problem somewhat solved with my SA M1a but still have a slight issue. I put the ARMS mount on per instructions and then used some ARMS rings. The rings cured my problem of shooting to the right. However, i still have the problem of shooting high. High enoug
