Sniper Country Duty Roster

Joe M, it's OK, no problems. I give everybody three days, like Jesus, then I come looking for 'em ;-) Looks like Range 6 is one of the ones we want, there is a sniper range there too, but they pulled all the info inside the firewall post-sep 11, and I can't find it anymore. Thursday will be best around 1330-1430 or after 1800. I have a good gig at the local cop range and I have to get some trigger time in. USMC went stop loss, force wide, yesterday, so I've got to get the practice in while I can. I'm shooting the FBI qual course, at half times. Good challenging CoF, have to have your shit together or you flop big time. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 00:12:08 (ZULU)

Gents,

Figures youze would have a big get-together right after my port-call. The way things are moving, I'll be lucky to squeeze time for Blake and I to get down to the basic rifle course. That is actually a must-do before I go off for a year. Gotta have that all-important man to young man talk, and the badlands sounds like just the right place. I'll see this weekend if he's up to a 308 or if he needs to stick with his baby-stealth.

Anyone have a favorite factory load for their .223 stealth?

I've been shooting everything from 55gr to 69gr with good results out to 300 yds, but I haven't worked it for accuracy yet--and time is running out. My criteria for it was 1" or less at 100, then boiler hits on coyotes inside of 300. Not exactly match grade results...in other words, I have no real idea what happens at longer ranges. I think my procrastination has bit me in the butt again, but I'll worry about that tomorrow. heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 00:24:33 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon,

You have mail..No attachments, and was scanned on this end.

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 00:57:18 (ZULU)

Gents,

I'm heading up to Chetek, Wisc. in a couple weeks for a 4 day weekend. Anyone up that way that can tell me of anything interesting to visit, firearms related? Much apreciated....

Louis <Stoner25MKIV@aol.com>
Floyds Knobs, In, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 01:25:03 (ZULU)

'Lito, American-Scottish bbl.-maker-man, and 'Yote-bait;

You may remember a problem I bugged you guys about with my factory-fresh Stealth .223. The tight, burred chamber neck.

Well Winchester service got it back to me and I have since put 60 rnds thru it on sun.

Reloads w/ Varget and BLC-2, Fed match-prepped once-fired cases, WSR primers, and 75 gr A-maxs, 69 gr Sierra MKs, and some 50 gr Speer TNTs (for fun).

It shot so damned well that I was able to cull cases. Sub-moa w/ an occasional called flyer. The unexplained flyer cases are now in the bag o' brass for the mini. (I know, I know...).

The folks at Winchester service DID NOT re-adjust my trigger or dick-up my bedding job, either. Thanks Winchester.

I'm a happy old fart.

And speaking of Ruger rifles. I have had some ok and some not. But I recently took a chance on a swap for a 243 #1 full-stock model. Mounted my litle VXII tac Loopy and put 6 WW 100gr Power-Points into 1" at 100. Just may have to keep the cute little thing. And the bbl. is SMOOOOOOOTH as a (you-pick-what). So I got VERY lucky w/ THIS one.

NOT WANTING A REHASH OF THE RUGER WARS!!! Just tellin' a story, fellas.

Just BSin'.

Spud

Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:09:14 (ZULU)

Guys... I've been absent for a bit, but am now back...mostly lurking, but I do have a question that I can't remember being discussed.

I'm considering a low-power variable scope for my tactical carbine. What I need to know is: is there anything out there in the 1-4X to 2-7X that doesn't have a noticable change in eye relief when the power is changed?

I have a Leupold 1-4 on my 375 big boomer, and it changes maybe 1-1.5 inches between 1 and 4X. I can live with it since if I have to "do battle" with somthing appropriate for such a cannon, I have it on 1X, and if I need 4X I have time to adapt my hold to compensate. I'd hate to have to do that in a situation where I don't have time.

Any suggestions would be immensly appreciated!

Steve <nsege@centurytel.net>
lakeview, Oregon, USofA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:30:53 (ZULU)

John (acehigh@insightbb.com) you have mail, no attachments.

John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, TX, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:49:01 (ZULU)

Imports;

Look at www.atf.treas.gov/firearms and look for importation and Form 6 information. On a page from the F & E import link there is an address and phone number to the ATF import department.

E-mail;

I want to request a fire mission on the crack licker that keeps screwing with the e-mail.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:54:31 (ZULU)

Had 2 hour refresher on Small Pox tonight. Getting ready to have to make the decision on whether to do the vaccine thing again. Skeddy, veddy skeddy!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 03:53:04 (ZULU)

"SADDAM WILL FIGHT 'TO THE LAST DROP OF BLOOD'... "

Whose?

"TELLS TROOPS, "DO NOT FEAR AMERICAN ARROWS...""

Absolutely right. Screw the arrows. Fear the JDAMS.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 04:11:33 (ZULU)

******** edited *********

>>>>>Had 2 hour refresher on Small Pox tonight. Getting ready to have to make the decision on whether to do the vaccine thing again. Skeddy, veddy skeddy!<<<<<

Bolt,

Thinking about the same thing myself. Let me know how it turns out. If you go ahead and aren't delusional, frothing at the mouth, throwing up, w/diahrrea, headaches, nauseated, or (gasp) dead, I'll think about it some more ;))

News Flash:

Recently, Lubbock, Texas was named as the first city in the United States to be the host of a very timely and important training program.

Only 3 cities in the Nation will be honored to have such an event, and

Lubbock is the first with the training scheduled on March 18, 19, and

20, 2003. The program, Integrated Health and Medical Weapons of Mass

Destruction (WMD) Training Program, is considered by many to be a

training breakthrough, i.e., the "first of its kind" course that fully

integrates three critically important groups of medical and health care professionals who respond across the W.D. patient care continuum.

These participants comprise three training groups:

' Group 1 - First responders, i.e., emergency medical services (EMS)

' Group 2 - Hospital emergency department clinicians/technicians

' Group 3 - Hospital administration staff

My opinion about WMDs is to stay the HELL away from the infected or contaminated area and if you do get caught in it....make your peace with God VERY QUICKLY. You can't work in it and even if properly equipped, only for an extremely limited time. Col. David Hackworth had an interesting article about this very thing in the latest SOF. Better to nuke the bastards before they even think about using such weapons. According to the Col., there are more than 170,000 dead and disabled as a result of Desert Storm. I've not heard this before. That's a pretty astounding statement.

I'd like to know where Col. Hackworth gets his figures. Can anybody verify them?

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 05:28:15 (ZULU)

Hi Everybody,

I have been a lurker for monthes. I have been lucky enough to have had two great teachers over the years. The first was Charles Byers aka Chuck. He owned and operated a couple of businesses in Tempe Arizona. If anyone can put me in contact with him I would be greatly appreciated, he will know me. The other great teacher I have been fortunate to work with is Paul Kelly(finest shooter I have ever met and one damn good man). He has had a career that rivals any fictional story ever written. He asked me to dig around and see if any of the old gang is still kicking. Paul ran around with a spook(CIA)by the nickname Brannigan. Thank you for your time.

Please e-mail me direct

gwif@your-net.com

Sincerely Glenn Frank

I wish that I could add "Semper Fi" or "De Oppresso Libre" but alas I am a lowly flyboy and have no inspirational addendums.....

Glenn Frank <gwif@your-net.com>
Franklin, Ohio, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 07:26:07 (ZULU)

I go to knob creek twice a year. They all laugh at a man who brings a 1911 to a machine gun shoot. What they don't know is the pistol competition held in the swamp bottom pays pretty well. There are some very adept pistoleeros in the swamp. But you will never see a Ruger p-anything or a glock of any model, win the shoot. They both suck immensely. In fact glock is a lot like Harley-Davidson, they have to have glock only races because they can't compete with the real deal. Just my opinion. I have to admit the Ruger 22-45 is a very sweet piece though..

Sorry to be posting something about pistols on a sniper site..

Sincerely Glenn Frank

I wish that I could add "Semper Fi" or "De Oppresso Libre" But alas I am a lowly flyboy and we have no such inspirational addendums.

Glenn Frank <gwif@your-net.com>
Franklin, Ohio, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 08:04:23 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon, your views on rifles are mine one scopes, its S&B S&B in my gun safe, i've got an aimpoint 7000, but it sits on the shelf next to the safe..

Val the cloggie, and just for Val, Leupolds, especialy the ones sold in Holland !! suck !!ha ha double ha, and Hakko's are even worse.

Jon B.. that wandering zero wouldn't be that top of the range Hakko (nxs) now would it.. also double ha...

that will have humerously ruffled a few feathers, now i better get ready for the insults in welsh and dutch.

back to this Frankfurt Airport thing, some nut case, who was apparently in love( dunno if he was just a fan or actualy intimate) with the female that died when the shuttle went bang, decided he'd had enough, what better way to end it than to steal a plane and fly it into the telecom tower in Frankfurt, any how, he flew around a bit, long enough to get the Luftwaffe scrambled, who then flew around in circles behind him. He landed at FF Main airport when he ran out of fuel and was then arrested. Apparently this fiasco highlighted the total unpreparedness of any of the german authorities to react to the terrorist threat, lots of discussion about that here at the mo. But hell, it doesn't take some love struck nut case to work out that if the shit hits the fan, Mr Schroeder will see that he has been saving his damn euro cents in all the wrong places., I could have told em that the security, country wide sucks.

Whats this new (or old) remington 6...whatever guide rifle? that would be a good base for a 450 marlin bolt gun? or not.

Well its -12 C here, good day to test the cold bore shot on the 300m range. Best i go see if the squaddies are using it. Pete

PS. paul Cockerham, drop me a mail buddy, i need you to do me a favour and the email addy i have for you here won't work. cheers mate.

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 08:19:07 (ZULU)

Joe M..

Best .223 load I have found is 26 to 26.5 grs of either H-335 or W748 with a 50gr VMAX, NozzlerBT or a 55gr Sierra. This load will shoot in anything I have ever shot it in.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 13:00:11 (ZULU)

I had the same results with 27 gr H-335. It works great with the Hornady 55 gr bullets with cannelure. You can buy them in bulk cheap.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 13:41:17 (ZULU)

Joe,

Factory loads,? Try the Black Hills Remanufactured stuff. 52gr. match bullet. I got some in the deal when I bought my .223 stealth and it shoots 'em in the less than .5 moa category. Makes me wonder why I reload the little buggers. I agree with Pat on thr reloaded stuff. I use the same 2 powders. With the W748 I use a mag. primer cause it's a full case of dense powder(small grains).

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 13:41:39 (ZULU)

Quick question: Will I need standard, medium or high Badger rings to mount a 6.5X20 LR Leupold on a Rem. LA 700(heavy barrel) using a Badger base?

Thanks in advance,

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 15:13:10 (ZULU)

Joe: Message recieved, good to go. Figure between 1300-1400, depending where I am starting from.

Where the hell is 'Yote bait? There's fresh chum in the water!

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 15:21:30 (ZULU)

Louis,

Chetek is about 40 minutes north. There's a Class III dealer in Chippewa Falls (by the tank farm just before you hit 53 North). Dude has some interesting items in spite of himself. Then, up more your way, there's a little 800 acre range/ skeet/ bird compound in Bloomer--and a great little restaraunt that serves all you can eat prime rib (The View). Snowmobile racing is huge, but that would take some damn snow...Otherwise, plan on coming down to Eau Claire for anything else. I live about 15 miles south of the exit you'll take off I-94 to get up there...email me with more specifics on what you're looking for.

It would be nice to have the option on whether or not to get another small-pox vac! (grin)

On Hackworth's 170k casualties from GW numba 1; all my friends and neighbors are still kicking. Granted, it's mostly SF/ airborne folks; but you'd think out of 20% of the fielded force--maybe I would know at least one dead or seriously ill guy??? I have met one guy who was in ill health...supposedly it was gulf syndrome--but it ended up being parkinson's. So I ask, "What exactly is a hack worth?"

Hmmm, an outbreak of the stomach virus in Boston? I'm betting in 2-3 years, we'll look back and say "damn, we wuz attacked..."

Thanks for the good start with the .223, gents. Now I have a narrow field to work in for the stealth. Time is the enemy now.

I just realized what a year is to my littlest kids. 35 and 25 percent of their lives, respectively. It will go by quick for me, but those little "daddy's girls" will have a tougher go of it. Last time, I made this connection AFTER I got back. Being young and dumb has it's advantages...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 15:32:23 (ZULU)

Dr. Marc,

On a M70 Win. I had to use the High Badgers. Med wouldn't allow the AO to Adjust. FWIW.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 15:44:28 (ZULU)

Jaeger,

You have mail. Large attachment. Clean.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 16:25:02 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>On Hackworth's 170k casualties from GW numba 1; all my friends and neighbors are still kicking. Granted, it's mostly SF/ airborne folks; but you'd think out of 20% of the fielded force--maybe I would know at least one dead or seriously ill guy??? I have met one guy who was in ill health...supposedly it was gulf syndrome--but it ended up being parkinson's. So I ask, "What exactly is a hack worth?"<<<<

Good question.

I want to know where he got his figures. As I said before, that's an astounding statement.

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 16:27:20 (ZULU)

Dr. Marc,

I've had both a Remmy and a Winnie with heavy barrels using that scope, and the Remmy worked with medium rings while the Winnie needed high rings. So, I suspect that the mediums will work for you.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 16:45:43 (ZULU)

I ranted awhile back on "..the crimes that MAY be committed..." searches in MD and VA. This is the LE response (ok, to be fair--politically driven response) to all the tips during the sniper attacks.

This link is along the same lines, in the same jurisdiction:

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20030109-78847680.htm

Grrrrrrr.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 17:15:16 (ZULU)

Glenn Frank: >But you will never see a Ruger p-anything or a glock of any model, win the shoot. They both suck immensely. In fact glock is a lot like Harley-Davidson...<

Just when "Pistol Wars" finally ends and things get back to as close to normal as they ever get around here, along comes another damn troll :-). Anyone got a good troll load in .308?

On second thought, maybe this will draw yotebait out of his hide. Starting to miss the old reprobate.

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 17:23:50 (ZULU)

"On Hackworth's 170k casualties from GW numba 1..."

I've go an even more astounding statistic. 77 million American women annually are murdered, beaten, raped, abused, or irritated by their husbands.

My best professional guess is that - similar to the above "statistic" - the 170k number is double distilled bullshit.

I can easily come up with a "syndrome" for any subset of the population you define. Right away some members of that subset are going to start having problems: Nausea, blurry vision, insomnia, whatever.

Service members who are injured in the line of duty should be respected and cared for. But if you let some hack lawyer go fishing in any database, he's going to be able to torture the data into confessing to anything.

I read Hackworth's "About Face". You have to hand it to the guy; he was a great combat soldier. He deserves our fawning respect but a statistician is a statistician and a combat soldier is a combat soldier.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 17:34:14 (ZULU)

Paging: TONY KILMER of Spokane Wa.

I am in need of getting intouch with you.

Please E-mail me.

Thanks.

Stuart S. Sattler <lazyandfat@aol.com>
Wa, U.S.of A. - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 18:17:36 (ZULU)

Louis,

This is not shooting related but Joe M. forgot to mention the Leinenkugel Brewing Company in Chippewa Falls. You need to do some extensive product sampling here.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 18:33:50 (ZULU)

Guys,

Apologize for the flash but I was offered a deal today and need any real world info I can get on a .50 Beowolf on a RRA rifle. Built by Alexander Arms- I will check their site later but this deal passes by tomorrow afternoon. Money looks good, just know nada on how this cartridge performs or whether the AR reciever will stand this cartridge without premature wear. Pitch is this was designed with DOD research money but no info on whether it was adopted by Mil or passed over for problems.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA USA USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 19:02:50 (ZULU)

Bolt, Went through a 6 hr wmd class a few weeks ago, with a focus on small pox and the vaccine. It seems that after you get the shots/pokes what ever you want to call them, you can't have any contact with your kids for several days. I have decided that since where I live is not going to be the "ground zero" for any kind of wmd attack that I am going to wait till there are actual cases then get the vaccine. Just rember the "rule of thumb" on wmd scenes and stay up hill, up wind, up stream.

Mk4, could you e-mail me info on those classes in tx?.

Thanks

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 19:36:44 (ZULU)

Ok this is going too far, I'm pissed! Click my name for a news story that is sure to piss a lot of other people off.

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 21:10:51 (ZULU)

>>>>>>Mk4, could you e-mail me info on those classes in tx?.<<<<<<

Robert H.

Email sent w/attachment.

Mk4

Mk4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 21:26:30 (ZULU)

I'm proud to live in a country where really rich people can freely spout off and display the fact that it doesn't take intelligence to be wealthy.

Shooting topic... anyone seen a listing for an AR10A4 upper for sale by someone reputable...I'm looking for a flat-top, preferably 16".

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 21:34:50 (ZULU)

Robert H (medicboy)

You got mail. No attachments, no virus.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:27:13 (ZULU)

I had a great day today. I bored holes in the sky over Miami for over an hour and had a ball. Tomorrow I'm going to do it some more. This job is killing me....ouch. The Dave Clark's are the best. Rifles, Airplanes and Motorcycles....life is good.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:27:24 (ZULU)

Dr. Marc

With a Badger base, you can use Medium rings P/N 306-20.

Marty

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:29:28 (ZULU)

Ken M.,

I left my cell phone number on your answering machine. Call me. I just had a very interesting conversation reference the April shoot at McCoy. First, it is too easy to do it. Second, timing is everything, and our current timing sucks baaaadddd. Let's just say that I am glad I am leaving. Traffic will suck around here real soon :)) I'm blasting an email for back-up.

Gents,

The use of this post for comps can be arranged with a simple concept paper/ request from your agency or organization (strap hangers can fall-in with the unit/ group no problems). The only thing needed is a LE or Mil sponsor. I'm not going to post the POC here, but I will reply to email inquiries from any of you that I know. Unit/ LE reps-include addresses/ agency in your email-I'll send a range book with certification requirements, phone listings, and a 1 page info paper on how to do it from start to finish. Well, at least for the first ten of ya...whudda I gittin me-self into here???

This POC staffs the whole deal herself. She gets Command Group OK, then arranges Barracks, Chow (mil-free, the rest pay as you go), tours/ briefs, Ranges (by Type), internal transportation, everything! MREs for one a day could be arranged too. Like I said, too easy! A good schedule for this:

WED-PM Arrivals

THUR-Tours, briefs, safety overview (range ops SOP), then zero at KD

FRI-AM, KD PM-Comps

SAT-AM Comps, PM-Sniper range (movers)-Possible CAPEX with drill-units

SUN- Brunch/ departure

This can be set up any way at all...best months (usually) are March thru Late May, and Mid-August through November. DEC-FEB is too cold, and the summer is AT time.

Now, if we lay on for April, there is a better than even chance that we would be "cancelled" at any point right up to the day of execution (most likely 1 FEB). I am thinking that this isn't a good way to welcome someone who travels far, takes off work etc. Most of you already know exactly what I am hinting at here--but I'm thinking the scope of it would blow yer mind. My advice is to forget April and wait and see what comes. Then, once we have a clear idea on when it ends, we just let "her" set it up at a later date! Of course, I'm spending a year elsewhere--but I am coming straight back here into a job that could really impact future shoots.

If you like to bet against the odds, I can lay this all on Monday morning. I have the command group OK to proceed for Ken M's unit sponsorship (more or less). Again, we'd only be certain of success once our ranges went "hot" each day. Just post go/ no-go suggestions. If enough folks don't care if it falls apart--I'll lay it on anyway.

And no, we can't hold it on my farm. The Missus would skin me alive for taking up those last few moments of quality time..:)) BTW, I'm already in deep stuff over a few days in April at Badlands that just hit my calendar! (Bobby-email, no attachments).

Well, it sure was an enlightening day. I am re-motivated!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:38:50 (ZULU)

Medical information here, bypass if not interested..........

Folks, there are A LOT of issues and good/bad information out there on small pox and the vaccine. If you want the propper poop on the subject, go to this CDC site and read ALL of it. Essentially, this is what most of the DMAT's are using for the basis of instruction. I wish that I could give you the exact information that we received last night, but we aren't supposed to do it.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/index.asp

You have to look at everything as Pre-Attack and Post-Attack. There are huge differences in the recommendations.

The main concerns personally are simple:

1. I have a history of skin problems, Grade 3 Acne as a young buck. Really nasty and embarassing stuff. Even at dang near 49 years old, I still get zits. Although not ecxema(exema), it may be considered a skin disorder.

2. I can either get the vaccine through the hospital where I work (whenever the decision is made on what the hell they are going to do), or with the DMAT I am attached to. Either way I am considered first line/first responder, which makes the decision tougher.

3. There are so many liability, insurance and workers comp issues that nobody really knows who will be responsible for covering my ass iffin I get really sick, lose a limb, or go prone permanently.

I am still leaning towards taking my chances and foregoing the 15 bifurcated needle pricks. Like I heard on one of my favorite war movies that I now can't call the name of now (brain fart), "it's a good day to die". I'm too dang mean and ornery (like Yote Bait) to let them little bugs kill me. I am a lot more worried about a tank car of chlorine turning over on the highway at this point.

Doctor Bolt Out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:42:35 (ZULU)

Dan,

Using that same logic it can be inferred that there are seventy-seven million American women who have hearing defects or JUST DON'T LISTEN!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 23:08:43 (ZULU)

OK gang anybody have a source for military gore-tex rain suits?? Found out just a minute ago that Military Clothing Sales has the jackets but the pants are "a controlled item" ! OH Brother!!

Let me know off line - NO I don't want civilian equivalent want the real deal! Or I really only need the pants.

Sarge

Sarge <Sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 00:16:51 (ZULU)

Gentlemen:

I have a great favor to ask of all of you.

My Wife's younger sister has been battling cancer for some time now and making good headway.

Today she got some news that was less than encouraging.

I would respectfully ask that all of you offer prayers for Carol's continued good health.

I know that this is off-topic, but too bad. I know of no finer batch of people, and that's why I'm asking.

Many Thanks,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Linas, NM, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 00:25:55 (ZULU)

Bruce,

Will talk to the big guy in the sky tonight sir! Dang, what is going on around here, lots of good folks getting down.

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 01:02:51 (ZULU)

Bolt,

After looking at the adverse reactions on that page I'm gonna take my chances that my initial innoculation is still good. If that's what the vaccine does, the actual disease must really suck.

Bruce,

You have mail. N/A.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 01:18:19 (ZULU)

Steve,

As far as a Tactical Carbine scope, have you considered a Trijicon ACOG. They are not variable, but for a 4x scope acquisition is fast and the glass is clear.

Bruce,

Prayers on the way. And I agree with you on the spirit of brotherhood that is exhibited on the site.

Bobby,

Card has been sent. Please keep us all informed about Steve. He is a great man and I look forward to throwing more lead downrange with him. Some good people may be down, but they are not out! Prayers still being sent.

I don't think I'm ready to compete yet, but might like to help/work the SC Sniper Match. Checking my schedule now and will let you know if your interested in the help.

John Levens

John Levens <SirSaxII@aol.com>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 01:24:26 (ZULU)

Bruce,

Will add your loved one's name to the list I keep in my heart for prayers of recovery. Continue to be a source of support for her! We will support you!

I also have a different list, one that contains the names of dealmakers from Nigeria and those farts who propugate viruses, both real and electronic......

"Lord, may these scum enjoy the feel of a warm rain shower of high grade kerosene while in the close proximity of a fully functional Zippo product!"

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA! - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 02:24:30 (ZULU)

John,

Thanks..I WILL take you up on your work offer! Let me know.

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 02:28:00 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>>> SNIPER COUNTRY MATCH UP-DATE<<<<<<<<<<<<<

OK everyone knows the dates are 6-8 June, 2003 at BadLands Tactical Training Facility, Grandfield, Oklahoma.

Now for the new info. A registration form has been posted to the BadLands web-site at www.badlandstactical.net check it out!!

This is a TEAM Match. OK you don't have a partner...NO SWEAT, we'll team you "singles" up so that we have a total of 30 Teams. Gawd that's 60 Hawgs, Rosterfarians, Dudes, Undudes, Catshooters etc. all in the same place at the same time!!! LOOK OUT Grandfield...and Witchita Falls and Lawton and everyplace else in between!!!

For some things you might want to think about "training" for!

Might be a good idea to have your stalking skills in order - maybe, maybe not but...

Another thing you might also consider "training" up on are your handgun skills! You never know!!

Planning on attending??

Best have...lets see about 150 rounds of rifle ammo and 100 rounds of handgun ammo with you! Oh you might want the handgun to go with that ammo!

We'll do our best to have information on lodging in the area posted either here or on BadLands web-site, hopefully both, within the next couple of weeks.

We will keep you posted!!

Just remember...I don't give hints very freely so take what I do give and learn!! HeeHeeHeeHee :-) You all wanted a SC Match! You're going to get a MATCH!!!

Oh we're having TOOOOOOOO much fun with this!! Evil grin, Evil grin!

Sarge and the SC Staff

Sarge <Sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 03:32:00 (ZULU)

CDC:

>>>> I can easily come up with a "syndrome" for whatever subset of the population you want. Right away some members of that subset are going to start having problems. Nausea, blurry vision, insomnia, whatever...........But if you let some hack lawyer go fishing in any database, he's going to be able to torture the data into confessing to anything. <<<<

Man, you said a mouthfull. That's called "objective analysis". To wit: you provide the objective and I'll provide the analysis to support it. Much of what passes for scientific inquiry proves nothing beyond the fact that with a cleverly worded grant proposal, you can get the government to pay for just about anything.

Don't even get me started on "cancer clusters" and haute tension power lines.....

Wuzz

Wuzzagrunt <t1_of_2@hotmail.com>
NY, NY, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 04:45:44 (ZULU)

Gents,

Headed out for duty shortly...so a quick post.

Bruce, Carol is in our prayers. My wife is a survivor of breast cancer, so I know the personal toll this takes on loved ones. Godspeed...

New info on the SC shoot looks good. Will peruse more, at length, on the 'morrow.

Have a surprise coming up for the SC members...stay tuned. Probably in the next week or two.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 05:04:56 (ZULU)

Mk4, agreed on the small pox thing. It is a risk vs. benefit thing. If I was still working in the "big city" I would opt for the vaccine, but out where I am now... No, not until there is a real and present danger. For those that work in places like D.C., New York, L.A. (Highly likely target areas) then it is a no brainer.

Off to bed.

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 07:18:31 (ZULU)

What BDC cylinders do the Leupold 3.5x10 LR M-3 scopes come with from the factory? Are there custom makers so you can match your load to the BDC or do you compensate?

Thanks

Pat

Pat <patncindy@iglide.net>
ID, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 15:38:54 (ZULU)

What the Enemy sees. This is well worth reading:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35857-2003Jan9.html

Intelligent discussion of our situation with NK:

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson011003.asp

Powell is playing his own game and has been for years:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35858-2003Jan9.html

Where did Brian go?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 10, 2003, at 16:13:31 (ZULU)

Bobby-card inbound for Steve!

Sarge-email, no attachments ref: Gortex.

On Bio attacks: Yeah, high density populations are likely targets--but consider a higher dispersion scenario. Large groups gathered and going home to points all over. Cruise liners come to mind. First, you'd want to find out infection patterns, and calculate incubation times so most are sick AFTER they disperse. Hey wait...didn't I read something about minor viruses on cruise ships? Didn't boston have an outbreak of similar stuff? I wonder....

I wonder what is next.

Come hell or high water (Uncle Sam excepted, he may throw a wrench) Blake and I will attend the April Basic rifle in Badlands. Anyone else planning on being out that way? I sure wish we could make the SC shoot in June though. But alas, I may be attending a bigger match that time frame! Heheh.

I'm hoping Blake follows in Andy's footsteps...he's heading that way already with his skills. And, young ladies are calling the house for him (finally!). Yep, things are looking up.

I sealed some files yesterday. Updated will, SGLI, and all that. Any advice on how to clue the wife in without freaking her out? I know it's just basic common sense to do this stuff, but she will take it all wrong...I've told her I am in more danger flying my whirly-gig than I will be in over there--but she is "on edge" anyway. A will would rock her world. Hey, I think she actually likes me after all!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, January 10, 2003, at 16:52:38 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I am very interested in the Duty Roster Match, but I have a couple of questions.

First and foremost, I have no formal training long range shooting. I have never shot in a match before...I shoot out to 885yds at least twice a month. Typically I shoot sub moa.

What do you think the minimum requirements are for someing like this.

thanks,

bryan

bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 17:01:34 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Make up an info packet, heck several copies wouldn't hurt, have them witnessed and notarized, file with the State (if necessary). It should contain your will, DNR order, copies of any insurance policies, deeds, titles, birth certificates, etc., and specific instructions that you wish to be carried out in event of your death or inability to make or carry out these decisions on your own. Include a living POA for your wife.

Do you have a trusted attorney? Give him a copy. How about a close relative or friend? Put one in a saftey deposit box. Everything should be sealed, with instructions to be given to your wife, kids, or other designated survivors and opened only in the event of the tragedy described above. That way she won't even know that it exists unless she needs it!

Be safe,

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 17:22:30 (ZULU)

CDC,

Thanks for links, again. Brian is teaching, I believe in FL?? He said somethin last week, I think. I'm showin symptoms of CRS in all the wrong places and at the wrong times.

Pat,

The caps are .308,.223,.30-06,.300WM I believe. There is a company in Californicate that will make a custom one if you send 'em the data. I can't remember the name but they have a web site and I'm sure someone here will enlighten you.

JoeM.

Don't tell her you made a new one. Tell her where the one is kept that you and your lawyer made a few years back. wink, wink. Just to refresh her memory.

Bhermam, Brian.

I don't know squat either but I'm gonna go learn. I went to my first match last fall and was amazed at the knowledge and talent. Most everyone was willing to share or help. If I couldn't shoot I'd go just to help out. It's a great bunch of people. You'll have a blast.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 17:35:39 (ZULU)

Please check this site out.

The video inspection of these Rifle barrels should be an eye opener.

Steve from New Joisey

http://www.riflebarrels.com/

Steven Dzupin <sdzupin@optonline.net>
Wayne , New Joisey, US of A - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 18:17:30 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Gonna play the devil's advocate here! As an insurance agent, I have seen first-hand when preparation was not thorough and a loss occured, and the stress it causes all survivors and family members. You MUST discuss everything with your partner beforehand! You are a team, therefore the larger interest of future family security is greater than the moments of fear and uncertainty you will share while discussing such a sensitive topic. Remember why it is called a "living will!"

Joe, she needs to have HER affairs in order also! As she is a public servant, both of your occupations are slightly elevated risk exposures. All of the recommendations you have received so far are valid and smart, but you can not leave out the most important people, your spouse and dependent children! Together, you, your spouse and children should meet personally with your insurance agent(s) (auto/home/farm/life), personal attorney and your minister/priest. They will be of GREAT assistance and comfort to you all!

Guys, it is not just about the dollars, it is the peace of mind that comes when open and candid conversation leaves no questions, doubts or fears! You will both perform your jobs better and more professionally without distraction or worry! Do not leave your hard earned estate to the greedy probate attorneys! Make your wishes known now, and keep them updated! The whole financial services industry has re-evaluated its thinking since Sept. 11, 2001.

When you talk about this on an annual basis, it becomes easier to discuss without emotions and your imaginations running amok. The financial security of your families is just as important as your being willing to physically fight off an intruder/attacker!

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 18:51:17 (ZULU)

To everyone - A living will is a must. This is the document that keeps your child from the misery of someday having to make the decision to pull the plug on his/her mother or father. I've seen it up close and personal, you DO NOT want to leave this to your child...the guilt is horrible for them. It is such as simple thing, but it effectively protects your children from immense suffering.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, January 10, 2003, at 19:33:45 (ZULU)

Joe M. & Alan

I would not do this. Reason is, when my Dad died, everything (will, deed, insurance policies, etc.) was in a jointly owned box at the bank. We were not allowed to remove anything at all, even my Mom's personal items, except to make copies until the will was probated.

If you take this option, I'd put the box in her name to make certain she has unfettered access.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:10:59 (ZULU)

Gents,

The SC shoot is getting all you pumped up. I already have a partner and were NOT telling...;-)

Bruce, wife goes in for her yearly cancer check up and mammogram. Will be holding my breath on Monday until the results come in...

Looks like we lost an officer up in south of Portland. Shot in the face and not expected to make it. Dammit!

More on my time off next Monday/Tuesday.

Anyone hear from Undude?

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:21:22 (ZULU)

Bryan-

Do you have dope for various ranges out to the 885yds?? If so you'll do fine. Sign up, show up, & shoot!! No matter how well you do (even if you win) you WILL learn some new things, whch is the real prize. Your sub-moa will be very useful since there are always some short range (50-300yds) precision/speed drills. Also, don't ignore the sitting/kneeling/standing positions. Match directors are a sadistic lot, but all competitors are tortured equally and after it is over you'll be asking for more.

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:22:25 (ZULU)

on a lighter note...

Geof (ex royal marine) rang me up this morning, " ey up Pete, wot you doin' tis afternoon? how about a spot of deer hunting?" well how could i resist?? only slight problem was i had all my hunting gear and rifles in the damn safe in my appartment at work. bugger. He says he will lend me his 22.250, ahhh a leupold scope, how will i ever live that down on tze roster.. shit, deer huntin' with a Leupold is better than no deer hunting at all. (ain't that true Val) anyhow, had a dig about in the cellar and came up with some old hunting gear and cement covered boots, will have to do I figured. Lucky i had some new steiner bino's in the cupboard. So off I went to meet the others on the training area at 15.00hrs. dressed like Wurzel Gummage ( Jon B knows who he is, a scarecrow). Rainer the forester tells us he expects that we might also see some pigs, bugger, 22.250 not allowed for pigs, Rainer came to the rescue, " you can use my 'Berg stutzen' ( over under double rifle, one barrel is a small cal, other larger. in this case 5.6x50R and 30R Blaser) only thing is ,, its a Blaser, , Leupold..Blaser, Leupold.. Blaser.. AAHHRGG. Pig, take the blaser, at least its got a Zeiss on it..

Anyhow, gets in place up a high seat, after an uneventfull stalk in, hadn't been ´there long when 2 deer crossed the open ground in front, a buck and a doe,(we where only after kids(kitz)) about a half hour later, i see a doe and 2 kids browsing thier way through the trees to my front, both kids are bucks, one is much larger then the other(usualy one is more dominant and takes more milk and grows faster and stronger), i waited intil they came into the open and then i shot the smaller of the 2 kids. It bolted at the shot , but showed sure sign of a boiler room hit. waited until 19.00 hopeing to see a pig or a fox, no joy, rainer wanted to test his new dog tracking so we let it follow the blood trail, deer had gone 60 yards, them little bullets made a big hole, but it still ran a way, Anyway, then Rainers phone went and it was the Cops, someone had run into a deer on the other side of the area and buggered thier car up and the deer was still kicking. poor thing,

An interesting afternoon, I saw 6 deer, Geoff saw 16 (and didn't get a shot off) and Steve saw 12(i think) and a fox, didn't get a shot either. That buck kid will taste good.

Looks like i bought a Jeep Cherokee, so we can now go back to SUV country.

Jon B and i have been chatting about haveing a sniper shootout match for us Euro Hawgs, maybe at Bisley or Sennelager.. might be interesting if it comes off. Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:31:38 (ZULU)

Don,

Your imput gives additional ammo to those guys who have wanted to buy a fireproof gun safe, but can't talk the spouse into the investment! A safe will honestly pay for itself in the long run! When you calculate the cost per year of a safe deposit box and its VERY limited accessibility, a home safe is the best option available for security of valuables and paperwork. Plus, unfettered 24hr 7x365 access by the owners!

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA! - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:32:38 (ZULU)

Well,, the TN match is a go. Match will be Mach 29/30. Fees for team is $50, $25 for a single and you'll be matches with another single. I have the web address for the COC for Manchester TN, for food, rooms etc,,, anyone interested please let me know. COF will be undisclosed, but I'll have a list of neccesity items by the end of the day.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 21:18:27 (ZULU)

Ref: Gore Tex

Thanks to everyone that responded. Have been found and problem solved!

Thanks again!

Sarge

Sarge <Sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 21:23:49 (ZULU)

Joe Sizemore,

Incomming no attachments. Sent out yesterday.

Take Care

Pat

Pat <patncindy@iglide.net>
ID, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 22:11:21 (ZULU)

Pat, (aka. patncindy)

you need a new name. Too many Pat's ;)) You have email incoming with an attachment regarding M3 BDC's.

JR,,

I got the damn thing TODAY!!!!!! I don't know how long it's been in the US,, but he didn't call me until Dec 24th saying it here and then didn't bother shipping intil a day or two ago. It was 150 miles from the house, and I had no way to get it.... We need to talk about that off line.

Looks great,, heavy bastard,, Got the reamer yesterday,, dropping it off tomorrow. Should have a barreled action by end of next week. Now,, if I can get a damn Prone stock for this mutha,, I'd be set.

I wanted to tell you thanks again for all your help. Had you not gone the extra mile, and Border backed ya,, I fear I may have had to spend a VERY unpleasant stink in the local jail for assault. Please tell Lee I said thanks also,, and let him know it's perfect!

Anyone who has a way to contact John at Tactical Stocks,, please give him a call and let him know I'm waiting ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 22:56:48 (ZULU)

Dealing with all this junk e-mail isn't worth the trouble.

If you have someone's e-mail address, you can sign them up for a ton of bullshit spam. It takes no brains. Any fool can do it. In fact, one is. Whoever the pimply-faced, bad-breath little fist-f****r is, he certainly isn't demonstrating any ingenuity.

Do we HAVE to continue posting our e-mail addresses? We're just making ourselves easy targets by doing so. Isn't there some other way? This has gotten ridiculous.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 00:19:14 (ZULU)

Well CDC how about a compromise.. Maybe it is possible to make it so that when a person clicks on a roster-posters name the reader then has to enter their OWN registered SC name and password in order to obtain the original poster's email link? (Sort of like one does when posting themselves)

Ken and Marius et al would be the ones to ask on the technical side... but my suggestion allows for email contact between rosterhogs and kills most data mining.

Charles Of Memorable Places Consulting <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 00:48:07 (ZULU)

A good up and coming site for you medical types:

http://medtech.syrene.net/forum2/index.php?s=

A good site for military gear nuts:

http://lightfighter.net/6/ubb.x

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 01:02:41 (ZULU)

Wes,

Undude is doing fine and I expect a more detailed status report in a couple of days...

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 02:54:06 (ZULU)

CDC, I also now get about 40-50 spam emails a day along with 3-5 virus infected emails. It is just frustrating that folks think that this is funny.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 02:59:59 (ZULU)

Charles: I like it.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 03:06:27 (ZULU)

Gents. This is a great bunch of folks. While we piss and moan over reloads and rifles etc we still feel comfortable asking for help when shit hits the fan in our personal lives. Bruce, I'll put in a plug for your family with the big guy. Apparently I have an open line with him right now as things have gotten much better with my woman. She ended up needing surgery, spine fused in one spot, got a bunch of hardware in there, still needs dental work.....BUT adversity appears to have breathed new life into our relationship and things are looking good.

On another note. All you active duty guys...good luck. USMC just implemented a service wide stop loss according to Stars and Stripes. I think we know where that is headed. Between North Korea and Iraq I think we are headed down that road again. Shit. Time to clean up the yard again I guess.

Ya'll be cool.

Gooch out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 08:35:01 (ZULU)

Brit RM Commandos departed for other climates yesterday( 45 and 29 I believe), and i just got a Reservist NOK and Address verifier update form to fill in through the post, makes me wonder, the reservist thing could be a co-incidence(what would they want with an ole fart like me? Volksturm? home guard? could be, reservists standing in for regulars freeing them up for active duty,) makes me wonder what is going down. As i said last week, bunch of blokes at work already on warning orders, ( most ex RAF, but all radar tech, sat con, electronics tech, ie, air support/defence associated trade discliplins, medics all so on warning orders( especialy the TA). Squaddies here concentrating of NBC, First Aid, and Weapons Training, Brigade ex next week. We live in interesting times.

Bloke near here selling a Weatherby, MK 5 with a shillen barrel in 338 lap Mag,Mc Millan stock I think, i might have a look out of interest.it seems to be a decent price but its probably shot out.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 09:11:55 (ZULU)

Pete L- How goes it buddy? Getting your reserve info up date request may not be an accident. One of my best buddies recently went on a terminal leave from the Army planning on retirement after 30yrs (broken with some reserve time) of been there…done that in the SF. He’s been all over from Cambodia and Laos (in the day) to Africa, Kosovo and everywhere in between. He has lots of trigger time indeed. Well he just got a call from the army telling him he was being retained as active duty and would be having orders cut for a deployment. I don’t think he sees the humor in all this.

Lets see…a very combat experienced greenie beanie top sergeant that speaks Arabic…hmmmm where do you think he’s going?

That .338 sounds interesting too. That could kill a piggy ya know =)

Bis Bald,

Joe S.

Joe S. <Spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, SoCal, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 16:30:15 (ZULU)

Gentlemen:

My heartfelt thanks for all the warm wishes and prayers for Carol. I count myself as indeed blessed to have so many wonderful friends.

Now, congratulations are in order!

Shep Shepherd, the UK sniper instructor that was featured in the recent History Channel series on sniping, has just received a singular honor. The New Years Honours list has been published, and Shep will soon be going to Buckingham Palace to receive his MBE (Member of the British Empire) medal from the Queen, in recognition of his contributions as a sniper instructor. I am told that it is not that common for a soldier to be so honored. The fact that Shep does what he does should makes this even better, in my opinion!

To all who are preparing to deploy, Godspeed. Our prayers are with you.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 18:57:30 (ZULU)

I've answered questions about scope parallax about 300 times, and it's always a long drawn out thing, going several e-mails, and a few phone calls. It doesn't seem to make any difference how long the guy has been shooting, this one always keep screwing guys up.

OK... here goes (Whew, this is gonna be a long one).

There are several things that go on inside a scope, and in the eyes at the same time. Some of them workie against each other.

But some terminology first... and we'll leave out lenses that are there to correct some optical or color errors, but don't have anything to do with image forming.

We'll start at the front of it all, and work back.

1 - The "Object"... the thing that you are looking (shooting) at.

2 - The "Objective". The front lens is called the "Objective"... it forms the first image of the "object" we are looking at (that why they call it the Objective ;)

It is the lens that "captures" all the light, that is solely responsible for the image quality of the scope... if it is poor, you can't fix the poor image later.

This lens is usually made of two different types of glasses (called "elements") sandwiched together, and is called an "Achromat".

The Achromat is fully color corrected for blue and green. The red wavelengths are partially corrected, but have what is called "residual color errors".

This is the normal type of objective used in shooting and spotting scopes. In quality, they can vary from badd, through sorta OK, to pretty damn good.

If one of the elements is made of an "ED" glass, or a "Fluorite" (CaF) glass, the two element lens can be very good to friggin' outstanding.

In some instances, objective lenses are made of three elements, and all three colors (blue, green, and red) are completely corrected. This type of lens is called an "Apochromat", and this is the finest lens that can be bought. The best of these can also have "ED" glass, or Fluorite as one of the elements.

3 - The "First image plane". The Objective focuses the light to make an image of the subject, just like a camera lens. This image is upside down, and right/left reversed. This is the first image plane, but NOT the "First image plane" that is talked about when shooters talk about reticles.

4 - The "Erector lens"... (if it is a group of lenses, it is called the "Erector cell"). Because the first image is upside down/wrong way around, we (as shooters) can't use it... so we flip it around with a simple optical group called the "erector cell". This cell gives us a new image that is right way around, called the second image plane. Moving this cell causes this second image plane to move... so micrometer spindles are put against the cell, to get elevation and windage adjustments.

5 - The "Second image plane". This is the second real image plane in the scope, and this is the image plane that shooters call the "First image plane" when talking about reticles. In a fixed power scope, or in a variable with a "First image plane reticle", the reticle would be placed in this image plane.

This is where Premier Reticle puts those magical "Gen II" reticles.

6 - The "Zoom group". In a variable scope with standard (non-magnifying) reticle, the zoom group of optics would follow #5. This group of lenses can change the size of the image plane in #5 and then form a new (third) image plane behind it.

7 - The "Third image plane" In variable power scopes, this is the plane that the reticle is placed in. By being here, it allows the image to change sizes, but the reticle to stay the same size. In the context of reticles, this is the image plane that is referred to as the "second image plane"

8 - The "Eyepiece". This optical group is like a jewelers loupe. Is is (or should be) a super fine magnifier. It's only job in the whole world, is to focus on the reticle.

Let me repeat that for those that live in Rio Linda...

THE ONLY JOB FOR THE EYEPIECE IS TO FOCUS YOUR EYE ON THE RETICLE!!!!

It CANNOT adjust, or compensate for, or do anything else when things look bad in the scope, or when you can't hit the target... and you CANNOT use the eyepiece to try to correct for parallax. That is sheer folly at best, and raw stupidity at worst.

If you expect it to do anything else, then stop wasting your time with long-range shooting, cuz you are never gonna make it past mediocre... and take up golf!!

OK... now that you know what the insides are like... lets move on. We'll use the zoom scope for our examples. cuz if you can understand the zoom scope, then the fixed scope is a walk in the park.

In the scope that is set for infinity range, the object forms an image behind the objective (the first image plane)... the erector cell "sees" that image, and flips it over and makes it right way around in a NEW image plane (the Second image plane). The zoom group adjusts the size of this image plane, and makes a NEW image plane (the Third image plane) that is the desired size. There is a reticle placed in this last image plane, and the eyepiece focuses on the reticle AND the image at the same time.

When things are good, that's how the scope workie!

---

But... now the booger falls into the soup... IF the third image plane and the reticle are not exactly, (and I mean EX-ACT-LY) in the same place, then your eye cannot see them LOCKED together as one picture.

It sees them as two separate pictures, and the eye will look at each separately, and the eye can also look AROUND one to see the other.

---

Lenses are measured in metrics (aka Millimeters). Not because the Europeans wanted the metric system 20 years ago, but because optical strings and chains of lenses (like scopes) are really a string of numbers.

There are constant ratios of "this divided by that's" that give image sizes, "F-ratios", and image locations. It's so damn easy to do the engineering using a 10 based system that the optical guys were using the metric system way back in the 1800's.

The objective has a "Focal length"... this is the distance behind the lens that the first image plane falls when making an image if a subject that is at infinity (or very damn far away).

If the objective has a focal length of 100mm, then the image of that 1000 yd target is 100mm behind the lense.

But the problem with geometric optics (which is what we are dealing with here), is that they follow the laws of geometry... and optics make triangles like rabbits make babies.

AND... in an optical chain, when you change one thing, one angle, one ANYTHING, everything else follows along and changes BASED on the ratios involved at THAT stage.

If we take that same target, and move it to 100 yds, the image in the scope moves BACKWARDS, going further into the scope. Not by much, but it doesn't take much, cuz we're dealing with very small distances inside the scope, and very high magnifications.

How far the image moves back, and what it's new position is, is predictable by the mathematical ratios of the angles formed by the subject and the first image... OR (for us dummies that lost our slip sticks) by the ratio of the distances to the Target and the focal length, multiplied by the focal length. then ADDED to the focal length.

The target is at 100 yds (91440mm), the focal length of the objective is 100, so the displacement is 1/914 x 100, which means that the first image is now at ~100.1mm. Hmmm only .1mm, that doesn't seem like much.

Read the following paragraph twice...

In a 1x scope, 0.1mm would mean nothing... but this displacement is repeated throughout the chain, AND if any of the optical groups change the image ratio (aka image size), then the displacement (aka ERROR) is changed in direct proportion to the increase in magnification. So in a 3x scope, it would be .3mm, and in a 10x scope, it would be 1mm, and in a 30 power scope, the image would be 3mm behind the reticle.

Now, you should have seen a pattern in this last paragraph.

READ THIS TWICE!!

With the same error in the objective (scope focused at 1000, and target at 100), the parallax INCREASES WITH MAGNIFICATION... got it?

If not, READ IT TWO MORE TIMES!!

OK... now, if we do the same math for closer distances, like 50 yds, and 25 yds we will see that the error gets really big, so that with a target at 50 yards, and the scope set at 35 or 65 yds, the parallax makes the combination un-usable.

---

Parallax is... when the image of the target, and the reticle, are NOT in exactly the same plane, and by moving the eye up and down... or side to side, either the target OR the reticle appears to move in relation to the other.

You might see the target move and the reticle stay still, or you might see the target stay still and the reticle move over it... both are exactly the same, and which you see, is only a matter of your OWN perception.

It is NOT possible to have parallax while moving up and down, but not have it when you are moving side to side.

If you think that is what you have, you have other problems... either you are moving the rifle, or you have eye problems.

---

HOW TO SET UP A SCOPE!

This is the only way to do it...

First, screw the eyepiece out (CCW) all the way, until it stops.

If you wear glasses, put them on.

Hold the scope up and look OVER the scope at the sky, and relax your eyes. Then move the scope in front of your eye.

The reticle should look fuzzy

Turn the eyepiece in 1/2 turn, and do the same thing again. You will have to do for a while before the reticle starts to look better. When you start getting close, then turn the eyepiece 1/4 turn each time.

Do this until the reticle is fully sharp and fully BLACK immediately when you look through the scope.

Than back off one turn and do it again to make sure you are in the same place.

Then LOCK the ring on the eyepiece, and leave it alone forever!

Second.

Set the scope down on something sold, where it can see something at a long distance... half a mile of longer is good.

It can be on the rifle, and rested in sand bags at the range... but pick something at least 1000 yds away... even further if possible.

If the scope has an "AO" Adjustable objective, then set it for infinity, and look at the distant object, and move your head from one side to the other, or up and down if you prefer.

If the reticle seems to move, there is parallax.

Change the distance setting and try again... if you are very careful, you can move your eye, and adjust the distance at the same time, seeing which direction gets better.

With front objective adjustments, you can turn them either way without worry... BUT with side adjustment scopes, like the MK4-M3, the M3-LR, or the other LR family of scopes, the adjustment must ALWAYS be made from the infinity end of the dial. Turn the adjustment all the way until it stops (past infinity), and then start turning it in a little at a time, until there is no parallax. If you "overshoot" the proper setting, you can't just turn back a little, you must go back to stop at the end of the dial, and start over again.

While "AO"s dials are locked in place, and if the indicated distance doesn't match the real distance, there's nothing you can do about it... the side focus dials are not locked in place.

Once you have found the setting for infinity on the side focus models, then (CAREFULLY) loosen the screws, and set the dial so that little sideways infinity symbol is lined up with the hash mark, so it is calibrated. You can also make little marks or put on a paper tape for other ranges instead of using the round dots that don't match any range.

Now you can set it to infinity, but remember that you MUST turn the dial all the way past infinity to the stop, EVERY TIME before going from a close range to a longer range.

If you are set for 500 yds, you can go directly to 100 yds, but if you are set for 100 and want to set it to 500, you MUST go all the way back to the stop, and then go to 500

This is because there is a fair amount of backlash (aka SLOP) in this wheel linkage to the focusing cell, so you can set it only from one direction to make sure the slop is always on one side. The other problem with it is, even if you decided that you wanted to calibrate from the other end... the recoil will push the cell back. SO you must ALWAYS set these dials from the infinity end of their scales.

To make it easy to not have to remember... I always start from the end stop, when I change range, no matter which direction I'm going in... it adds about 0.023 seconds!

---

Now... you gots a friend that says to set up a scope a different way???... he don't know doodly-squat about scopes.

The guy at the range said to do it a different way... he don't know shit either.

You know some guy who's in the Marines says to use your eyepiece to correct parallax... he doesn't know shit about optics either.

You got a friend that shoots benchrest and says something different... he don't know crapola!

This is the way, the only way, there is no other way.

... as Rushbo would say... this is from GOD-da ;).

You gots questions, just e-mail me.

You wanna "debate it", then go play golf, cuz you're wasting my time!

'lito (gettin' grumpy in my old age!)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 19:14:17 (ZULU)

I don't talk with you guys very much because of my busy schedule. However, can anyone tell me if the Steyr Tactical Elite is available yet. I sure would like to know. Any help is appreciated

Brandon <bub220@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 19:30:21 (ZULU)

As some of you might be aware of, BadLands had scheduled a team match to be held May 2-4, 2003. We have decided to cancel this match, so that we can throw all available resources into the SC Match. Get ready guys..it IS going to be a good one!

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 19:44:50 (ZULU)

Kittywhacker, you forgot the easiest way to permanently remove paralax. I do it with a hammer. By striking the AO adjustment at the correct angle, you can drive the focal plane right into the reticle. I know that's true, because once, I drove the focal plane too far and broke the reticle. A little too much hammer impact can do that. That's also why it's a complete waste of time to lap rings. Once you start tapping the scope hard, it doesn't matter if the scope is alligned in the rings or not. You're going to flex it anyway. One of the guys I know overcorrected his focal plane way too much. He was adjusting a Tasco the same way, and the adjustments must be done with a ball peening hammer, because Tascos have small adjustment ranges. He drove the first focal plane out a touch too much, and it pressed into the objective lens. Must have pretty hard too, because the lens fell out.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 20:25:46 (ZULU)

NEWS ALERT........ effective immediately all K-Marts and Walmarts will be banned from Iraq. They will be replaced with.....Targets!!

Stan Caniglia <snfcaniglia@msn.com>
ohio, - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 22:31:09 (ZULU)

Cat Plugger: Lots of stuff there I didn't know. I pasted it into a SEVEN PAGE (!) word document and will study it carefully. Thanks for the effort.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 01:14:35 (ZULU)

CDC,

You took the words right outta my "fingers". That's one for the hot tips,, or maybe add a title and make it an article.

FatBoy

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 01:47:20 (ZULU)

Am I dreaming it all, or did I recall seeing a good explanation somewhere of ALICE mods that need to be done? I've checked the In Review and Cold Shots section, but don't see it now. Anyone have a link for us visually challenged?

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 03:00:33 (ZULU)

Dudes,

back in the UK yeah, you know this jet lag really sucks. Anyone know of a good quick way to cure it? I was in the states, and for the first week I was falling asleep at 6PM(Central), waking up at 1AM, every steenking day. Then one day I made myself stay up til 2AM, and it broke my sleeping cycle. I was from then up til 3am and again at 9am, complete turnaround. Now that I'm back, I'm waking up at 2AM and literally knackered by noon, which makes absolutely no sense. haha, no, just wondered if any of youse military fellas had a surefire way to reset your internal clocks...mines broken

Bright eyed and bushy-tailed at 0320 hrs, sheesh

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 03:23:30 (ZULU)

A few thoughts on profiling during airport screenings

To ensure we Americans never offend anyone - - and - - particularly fanatics intent on killing us -- airport screeners will not be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal Of Honor winning former Governors...

To put this in perspective, let's pause a moment and take the following test.

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by

(a) Martha Stewart

(b) Sitting Bull