CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 00:48:18 (ZULU)

Happy New Year! Wish we were all together for a midnight trigger pulling exercise! May take one of the subguns out, but may use a shotgun. No use advertising what you have...

I'm gonna weigh in with CDC on the current course of action and staying the course. It's about time these countries got some respect back for the U.S.A.

Teddy Rooseveldt had it right: "Walk softly and carry a big stick".

When this is over I'd like to have these folks NEVER consider a course of action like Sept. 11 or ANY terrorist activity. The results would be just to painful.

Guess my New Years wish would be to have this type of thing over, our service members home, and have world peace. Ain't gonna happen, but we can dream.

My best to all. May your upcoming year be everything you wish for...

Semper Fi,

Wes

P.S. Bravo sends his best to the crew...

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 02:00:32 (ZULU)

Happy New Year to all you guys.  Have fun but be SAFE!

Whatever you choose to tilt tonight, be sure to raise the glass to all the defenders of our rights and freedoms both past and present.  

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 02:26:01 (ZULU)

Caison, Had the cranialrectumotomy performed a few years ago as a precaution. I figured to just get it out of the way right away!  ;-)

I initially shot the AR without safety glasses or a hood, and got close enough to the aperature to feel my eye brow brush the top of it. I now shoot with glasses most of the time after a case ruptured in the extractor groove while I was shooting a friends Win M70 .223 bolt gun. The Redfield rear sight probably saved my eye for me as I dug "stuff" out of my cheek that the sight didn't deflect. I will forever believe that there was/is a problem with that suppliers brass (I'll give folks details via email if interested.) Now, I have a CLE hood with a Bob Jones lense in it. The way I keep from buggering up the lense is to leave a small bit of the O ring that holds the lense in to extend past the edge of the hood. VIOLA - instant buffer for the edge of the hood and no more nicks and scratches.

Have had the rear flip forward and that is a bunch easier to notice than a weak spring in the rear sight bump the knob on the mag change. Two X's and a nice knot in the 9 ring ~ WTF! 'course it was during sitting rapid of a LEG match - thank you MR MURPHY!

Later, gots hordourves or howerver you spell it waiting!

Have a good one Hawgs!

Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Gettin' tortured by a three year old, who wants to see the big ball drop, USA! - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 02:32:12 (ZULU)

I made it back from PA. Damn, it was cold up there. The only deer I saw were splattered all over the interstate. Just a little snow, but I got to enjoy some. Nothing like that Buffalo, NY crap.

Went for a run in the country and it kicked my butt. I'm not used to running on hills anymore, and it showed. Felt like I ran twice as far as I did.

I had gotten some 220 grain 7.62x39 subsonic stuff from Whit Engel when He was up at Blackwater this fall. It worked well in my AK and a friends AR in that caliber. Quiet and hits hard on the steel with that big bullet. Didn't have a chrono. Wish I did. Has anybody else here shot any of this stuff? Worked well for me.

How many patrol captains do you know that carry an AK in the car and a sniper rifle and M-14 in the trunk? I used to be the only one here. Funny thing, those who used to kid me are now looking at it different. The police world will never change. It always takes a tragedy to wake people up to reality.

Well, Happy New Year brothers. Ya'll stay safe.

Finger  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 02:40:58 (ZULU)

Suffice it to say that I hope next year is better than last. You guys have a Happy New Year and I'll see you on the other side.

I saw today that the Marines are headed out again for places unknown hunting for the bad guys. The Army is moving in also. The flying folks are still looking for targets. To all you military folks overseas that read the Roster, let it be known that there are a lot of folks over here in your corner. May all your shots be straight and may you come home safe and soon. Most of us old farts, military or not, wish that we were there so that you could be here with your families.

Nite all! Bolt, alias the Boltster, out for the year!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 04:53:11 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 05:03:43 (ZULU)

My name is Boltster and I own an AK.

My cheap ass bottle of wine is kicking in so time to hit the sack.

Nite all again, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 05:18:43 (ZULU)

EURO, No more money changing between participating countries, they have all got the same kinda money, each country has their own logo's and pictures printed on the notes and stamped into the coins and you can spend it in any country taking part, some of the poorer countries have realy had to pull their belts in to meet the criteria to join, so no doubt some thing will go Tits up and we higher earners in the ritcher countries will end up getting taxed to bail some one out.

Hell we had a united europe under more or less one currency and administration in 1945, maybe we should a kept it thata way !!

Marco, Finland? just make sure you get the time off for Scotland in August, maybe we can talk Torsten into it too!! and like I said, Im up there second week in April, so even if you can only get a long weekend off, its still worth it, Figure Jon Beardsley will take a drive up to see us too, any one else wanna come???? maybe we can field a whole sniper platoon, I heared the deer are buying flack jackets and helmets already, n the rabbits are digging bunkers and filling sand bags !! or do I watch too much Disney, any how, Bambi's Dad is gettin it tonite.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
European Union?? - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 07:00:50 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
Union of Euro Socialist Republics - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 07:05:53 (ZULU)

Blurry pistol sights- a sight picture is a sight picture etc.  Even if the hump & bump are fuzzy.  Fuzzy front sight in the middle of the fuzzier back sight has been working for me for a while now.  Tried a special pair of shooting glasses.  They worked fine for qualification.  Then I wore 'em during force on force MILES drills against a local SWAT team.  VERY BAD JUJU!  

Anyone know where to get some of that netting with 3/8" or so openings that is shown in MSGT Spicer's book on Sniping?

Happy New year!

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 07:55:27 (ZULU)

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 11:37:01 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 12:39:57 (ZULU)

Hope everyone else have less of a headache than i have...

Pete, no worries m8, will leave enough time for Scotland, and would be great to get more rosterfarians in on the stalkin hunt.

Don't know bout Torsten, he has been quite busy of lately with the new T-improved (his son) and his buiseness, but we can always ask.

Maybe if Slugboy is back he mightbe interested aswell.

Good luck with the hunt today, and i am comming tomorrow myself, got things straightened out!

Will even bring along a first generation handheld infrared binocular, one of those old ones with the huge infrared light ontop of it, because i heard the boars are using anti-image-intensifier bushes to camouflage themselves in Germany...

Will mail you,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 12:54:59 (ZULU)

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 12:54:59 (ZULU)

 Ok, the first day of working in the New Year for me. Starting today in Texas all Officers must document all traffic and pedestrian stops for any reason that we initate. Easiest way to do that is a ticket. I'm going to go from stopping alot of folks and writing few tickets to writing a bunch. The new ticket books are huge to accomodate all the requirements of the racial profiling silly crap law.

  Gun question, anyone know  site that has the course of fire for F-class? Was thinking if it's the same as service rifle reloads could be tough. Do able, I think, but tough. Sent the local rifle club an e-mail. The correct person has not responded yet, but was informed shooting season may not start in January due to security concerns at the military range/base. Lets see here old Service men on post with rifles, huuummmm, I still don't see a concern. Sounds like threat level would decrease on match days due to all those vets with rifles.

Oh, I gave up chewing tabacky fer new years.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 17:18:21 (ZULU)

Marco is right, t-junior and the new biddness keep me busy, but I´m here lurking.

Cat fanatics listen up !

At a party last night a guy complained about the neighbors cats shitting on his doorsteps and in the yard. Since we had three hunters at the table all sorts of things came up, from live traps and irons, to just plain old "lito´ing" them and poisoning.

Since the neighborhood is very PC all those options were dropped for the now following one wich I think is the best I have heard.

A buddy just said: "Let the neighbors get rid of their cats themselfs" heres how.

Go out and buy a pice of plastic drainage pipe about 10" diameter about three feet long. Rig a old fish head inside the middel half with some wire to get kitty-kitty to enter the tube. and..  give the inside of the tube a good coating of axle grease.

I bet ya that after kitty has rubbed herself over the new upholstery for a few times the owner WILL get rid of that stupid dirty cat.

I already scraped some old gread of a trailor tractor !

have a good night

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 17:37:52 (ZULU)

"F" Class rules.....

http://www.dcra.ca/F%20Class/F%20Class%20Rules%20Amendments%20Aug%2001.htm

Basically it is prone bench rest shooting. You may be shooting against $10,000 guns but the wind reads separate the good from the bad. Sinister is GOOD! Patrons Boltster and Cockerham are mere virgins but after we learn the wind, watch out!

Finger.....

You gotta be careful crossing the Mason Dixon Line! They kill more deer by vehicle than we do hunting every year.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 17:39:34 (ZULU)

Don't feel alone. We in NC too have a new form to fill out for every traffic stop we make. The SBI(second bunch of idiots) not to be confused with the FBI(the first bunch)developed a full sheet form about the profile thing. If you make an arrest or conduct a search, you must fill out the back of the form too. This is going to be a real pain in the butt. Our citation book requires a lot of information too. I'm trying to get officers to make good stops with officer safety on their mind, and not more forms and worring about whinny complaints. I'm afraid a lot of cops are going to put blinders on. You know, the no contact/no foul, mindset.  

Had some fun with this a while back. We had a media type ride with an officer that was running radar in a high violation area that had a large number of accidents due to speeding. We asked her to identify the race and sex of the driver when the officer locked in the violators speed. She was never once successful. Well it doesn't matter. We have to play the game anyway.

Semper Fi,

Finger    

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 19:01:15 (ZULU)

Thanks for the f-class stuff Boltster- Found a Range in Waco that is public. Will post the link when I get back home. Waiting for Roll Call now. On competing against 10 grand guns. I bet the Gun George is building for me will do all that is needed to win. I'm a firm believe it's the nut behind the trigger that has the final say so on who will bethe winner. Of course this don't apply to anyone shooting a Remington 710 or what ever that crappy thing is called.

Dirty Steve,Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 19:39:03 (ZULU)

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 19:39:10 (ZULU)

                              From

                "VISION AND HIGH POWER SHOOTING"

                               by

                     Armando J. Coello, M.D.

"There is a misconception by non-shooters, including doctors, that competitive shooters must have such fantastic distance vision that they can tell the gender of a fly a mile away......The doctor will understand when you tell him, even convince him, that as a shooter you need to see the front sight of your gun clearly.  Knowing this, the doctor will not want the prescription to be "over-minus" if you are a myope, or "under-plus" if you are a hyperope.  If the exam shows the eye correction is so small that you would not need it for "normal living," you will probably still benefit by it in your shooting life."

"Before going for your exam, measure the distance between your eye and the front sight of your gun (or guns) while you are in the shooting position.  It is not necessary or practical to bring your gun to the office unless you want to show the doctor what a front sight looks like or the beauty of your gun.  But don't bring it without asking first or you might upset other patients, or make the staff think that you were not satisfied with previous encounters.  A good idea would be to bring an aperature."

"Now the Dr. could use a letter of the proper size from a reading test card, or your aperature, or a template that you made of your post, at the distance that is right for your gun.  With the prescription in front of the dominant eye (aiming eye) focus in the "front sight."  The Dr. will use progressively increasing plus lenses until you can see "the sight" as sharply as possible.  Compare now the view of the distant letters ("the target").  They probably will be blurry, in which case the Dr. would need to decrease the power of the added lenses so you could compromise in an optical correction that allows you to see the "target" acceptably, while the "front sight" remains in good focus.  In the case of a service rifle shooter the sharpness of the post is the most critical step.  Remember it is not your doctor's fault that you are now a presbyope (old).  If you can see both the front sight and the target sharply with the orginal prescription, no compromise is necessary (come back in a few years buddy....)."

When I go to the eye doctor I always bring a copy of this article(my career has caused me to relocate frequently).  Some of the doctors I've seen ask me for a copy.  It has helped them to help me.  You can probably get a copy of the entire article from Precision Shooting, but I haven't tried that.  If you want to contact Dr. Coello, his address is: The Eye Center P.C., RD#4, Box 1460, Montpelier, VT.  05602, USA

A happy, safe, healthy, prosperous New Year to you all!

Sal

Sal <scozz@prexar.com>
Bangor, Maine, - Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 19:46:54 (ZULU)

Thanks.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 00:13:27 (ZULU)

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 00:16:20 (ZULU)

I used to bed the first few inches of the barrel, but don't anymore, and I think my rifles are more consistant, hold zero, don't have "Cold Bore" error more betterer without that few inches of bedding.

Now I only bed up to the lug, and nothing further out.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 01:11:34 (ZULU)

I agree, wholeheartedly that unless there's a compelling reason that bedding doesn't need to go beyond the lugs.  It might help warping some to do it. But a piece of Aluminum bar bedded into a notch will take care of that. Touching nothing on the barrel. Ruger's are about the only ones that need it on account of the packing crate lumber they use for stocks.

Torsten;that's a unique solution to cat problems. I bet it would work quite well!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 01:51:13 (ZULU)

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 02:26:13 (ZULU)

From your comments, are you telling me there is an anti-AK element on the Roster? Did I miss a earlier debate, being as I'm new here?

I gave up my department AR to a younger guy to train and deploy with. The AK is my personal weapon. Besides, I like 30 cal bullets. You know, we old guys are used to them. Not like these spoiled "new kids" with their unmanly 22s.

That ought to start some crap, huh?  He HE HE

All kidding aside, I'm building an AR of my own now.  

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 03:01:43 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$FQQHPLYAAEVWPQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/02/wafg02.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/02/ixnewstop.html

Check out the links.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 03:20:16 (ZULU)

Thanks for the Dr. Coello article. My eye doctor and I have been dicussing this since I became a member of the "playing trombone with the TV guide crowd". He tells me that I will never have problems with distances, because of the optimal diameter of my eye. He says, the problem with the reading and close up is the old age. (damn ,I hate when that happens) The problem is the front sight of my pistol is in that weak range. It just isn't as crisp as it used to be. This article may be of some help to us. Thank you again.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 03:28:15 (ZULU)

   Any body have a good suggestion on gun cleaning supplies. What products are working out right now. Does any one know of a combat hand gun chat room comparable to the Roster.(If thats possible) I hope that everyone had a safe holiday weekend.

Regards, Ryan

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 03:30:07 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 03:54:09 (ZULU)

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 03:55:50 (ZULU)

Like Jim, I prefer caliber .30 for serious work. We're both old enough to remember the .30's. On the other hand, I used M16's for over twenty years and never found it lacking. It's the man, not the gun!

As for "unmanly" .22 shooters I'd like to know how you feel about us 6.5 guys? Are we just sorta "sissies" cuz we don't shoot .30 cal? Inquiring minds...

Let's see, if I shoot a .338 I must be a real stud!

That's it! Gotta order a .50 cal! Bet with one of them you just smile at the girls and their clothes fall off!

I like the direction this is going...

Testing 155's later in the week. Better enjoy, cuz after the 8th I won't be shooting for about 6 or 8 weeks...pooh!

All for now...

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 05:36:28 (ZULU)

I have been hiding in the corner reading for several days now and am quite impressed by the knowledge on tap here at the roster, and the kitty suggestions are hilarious, and may prove ueful yet. This msg board is awesome, and I look forward to picking your collective brain.

Stephen Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
Fort Worth, TX, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 05:43:31 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 06:07:38 (ZULU)

My Happy New Years to you all!!!

Wifie & I just finished a gallon of Margaritas and a couple of hours in the hot tub... a toast to those serving in foreign lands and on our roadways tonight!!

 My best to all the Roster Hogs! Damn good thing it isn't illegal to SUI(surf under the influence...)... Gonna go look for the bed now. 2002 is looking pretty good so far :)

 Later.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 06:14:21 (ZULU)

Can someone tell me the correct MV of the M118-LR (175SMK) load?

TIA

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 06:16:32 (ZULU)

I gots very little booz, no hot tub, and no poosey dis new years.

:-(  I must be in the doghouse.  Much prefer the cathouse!

Ref:  Field Manuals online.  All kudos and such should be directed to Sinister Dave I believe, who originally posted this great link IIRC:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/atdls.htm

I have downloaded quite a few.  Kept me out of harms way here for quite awhile, and I'm still working on them too!

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 06:43:14 (ZULU)

CDC.. >'I, for one, will never listen to or be involved in another discussion of it."<

Me neither... but how do you remember where/when all these threads are?... this isn't the first time you pulled them out of your whatever on a moments notice?

-

Sir Wesley... save your money on the 50.  I got one, and it hasn't helped my love life a bit... and now I can't afford to take 'em out, if I DO meet them ;((

-

Stephen Ashcraft... welcome to the site.  I would suggest that you go to the top of this page, and click on:

"Sniper Country Duty Roster Archives"

... ... and start reading EVERYTHING from the begining.

When you finished that... then go to:

http://www.snipercountry.com/sniper.htm

... start at the top, and read each link.  Probably take you a few weeks, but I guari-damn-tee you that you will know more than your shooting buddy when you are through.  Browse all the other parts of the site, it's a real gold mine of information.

-

Don Smith... the test/spec muzzle velocity of the M118-LR from a full length bolt gun is 2685, though Lake City quotes it at 2600, because they use a 22" barrel, with a gas port in it, and then take velocities at 78 feet.

-

Geoff M... I gots about the same as you gots this New Years... it sucks :((

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 08:38:31 (ZULU)

Thanks for thte advise, I work security in a very slow building avernights, so I have already gotten into doing those things. Been in the archives allnight. I am lookin for fireamrm/scope suggestions,ya know to get after the more playful aspects of this undertaking. All ears.  

                                             Stephen

Stephen Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
Fort Worth, TX, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 09:25:11 (ZULU)

Great, you got squirrels in the sophets(promise not to tell) and I have the nervous can't sleeps...what a pair. Good thing we're not in the same time zone.

Just kidding on the .50 cal. There's almost no place to shoot them anymore. Except for special events. Think the .338 Lapua might be a better choice. Neither in my future for a bit...think I want another rifle before then...not a cannon! Besides, wife won't appreciate all the "sex appeal" a .50 would give me...;-)

White dog just came in and nosed me under the arm...hard to disreguard 92 pounds of White German Shepherd. This is the "take me out" ,dad, routine. She is a character. Of course she'll expect a snack, too...

Prep'd some 6.5 brass this evening. Finish loading 155's tomorrow evening. Testing Friday. Weekend is shot. Wife's B-day. Taking her to Newport, Oregon, for the weekend. Should be fun.

All for now,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 09:42:44 (ZULU)

    I have hit a bit of a snag, I am building my 700p and recently purchased my base(loopy MK4). The problem is I plan on mounting a MK3 and after doing some reserch on the roster found out I'll be dumping rounds at 700 meters. I should have bought the 20moa built in unit but I guess thats why I am the novice.

    1.Should I just send it back or should I shim it.

        If shimming is the answer, what size shims?

    2.Does loopy make a base with elevation built in?

        I hav'ent seen one.

    3.Do you guys prefer leather or nylon in a sling?

Thanks for any input.   JakeP OUT    

Jake P <para13bp@gsinet.net>
NH, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 13:32:41 (ZULU)

I came to love both rifles very much for different reasons.

I remember the fist time I broke out my 14 around the younger cops here. They looked at it like it was a Brown Bess Musket. Over the years we have aquired 8 of them through DRMO, and only a few people are really comfortable with them. Since then we ordered 15 short AR's from Arma-lite, and they work great.

But I don't care what anybody says, I love to play with my AK. I guess thats pretty sick from a guy who has a hole in him from one.

Wes; I won't bad mouth your 6.5x284 either. That bullet seems to be a  success. Besides, Norm would get upset with me, and I want him to finish my new rifle so I can go play with it.  

Semper Fi

Finger  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 13:46:38 (ZULU)

Stephen Ashcraft:  I recommend beginning with the M16A-2.  For instruction look in the phone book under "Recruiters."  They don't charge and even supply free ammo.  What a deal!

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 14:09:31 (ZULU)

For squirrels you need to wait until they leave and then patch the hole they came infrom with some copper mesh and then inject some of the polyureathane foam in the hole.

The alternative is to get some Zinc Phosphite Tracking powder (pest control supply houses should have this) sprinkle it around the area the squirrels are in.  When they go to clean themselves they ingest the stuff and die.  Of course then you have dead squirrels in the attic.

Oh hell, just pull out the .50 cal - what's a few holes in the roof?

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 14:38:22 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 14:39:17 (ZULU)

Thanks for the suggestion. It has crossed my mind and will likely be in the relatively near future, however I have some finacncial obligations I would like to take care of in the higher paying civilian world first. Should I dare to ask if you would like to reccomend a particular branch of service? Besides I still want to own a high quality firearm, with excelent long range potential, so I will gladly continue to field suggestions.

'lito

You were right, this reading will probably take a few weeks, but I am on it.

S. Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
Fort Worth, TX, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 14:59:43 (ZULU)

Finally back to work after a very nice holiday break....and about an hour of "back reading" of the DR.....

Ryan...I've been shooting IBS and NBRSA "benchrest rifle" competitions for the past few years and those boys try every new thing that comes down the pike....

So far, Butches Bore Shine is the best bore cleaner on the market, bar-none....its got all the right stuff to get your tube clean if you let it do its work !!!  Coated rods like the Dewey and others are the only way to go.....Pro-shot patches are the cat's meow.....JB, USBorePaste or IOSSO paste works well after every 20 rounds or so to keep the bore in good working order also.....

Sarge....Ramshot powder....Pete Forras of Ramshot gave me several jugs of TAC to try during the 2000 shooting year.....it seemed to work fine....THEN, I ordered some of the newer lot and found it not to be consistent with what I had had previously....I couldn't get enough in the case to give me what I needed......so much for the TAC powder....I went back to V-V N powders....

Peter.....I also did some "night maneuvers" Sunday night....called up only one red fox but never got a shot as he didn't want to leave the cover of the shadows to cross the open field in front of me....the deer seemed very curious about the "squeeler"...about 17 of them came snooping around to see what all the noise was about !!!!

Out for now....Its gonna be a long day!!!

JR

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., USofA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 15:16:21 (ZULU)

On the MK4 flat bases not being enough for shooting past 700yards/meters?  Short story BUNCH OF CRAP!.  The flat base is what is on the USARMY M24 and it works to 1000 meters with a MK4M3 and that my friens is farther than a 308 has a right to be shooting in the field.  What you lose from a flat base is the ability for the scope to be looking through the center of the lense.  On a flat base you are looking the through the center of the lense at about 100 yards and as you get farther away and use more errector tarvel you get a slanted angle you look through at longer ranges.  So your site picture is clearest where its easiest to see.  NOt good.  The angle bases really help for the long range because they cut down the angle and give clearer site picture at distance.  Now I run 20moa bases on my rifles for this but I use Nadger Bases because they are better made than MK4.

Bill R., LMAO!  I bought a Glock M19 awhile back for my woods gun.  Fits in my vest, carries lots of bullets (All Bravo type loads so watch out) and weighs nothing.  Plus if I lose it I will just melt down some more Tupperware!

AK the best rifle ever.  Put down the Crack Pipe. I still love that M4 CAR for most stuff and a M14 or FAL for the heavy stuff. Anyone talking bad about the 22's never saw anyone hit with a little 55grain soft point.  Simple description  "SlushPuppy"  I will take that round over any in CQB.  Damm if I only had one rifle it would be a M4.  Of course after the first hunting trip I might have more rifles.

Pat T.  I would go call Jerry Rice 707-552-3810 and ask him to build a 338Ultra.  The one he made for me is fantastic!.  Get a 28"bbl, 1x10twist, pick the stock you want and have a Tactical Vent Muzzle Brake installed.  Mine kicks so little with 300 grainers at 2800fps I cant believe its a 338.  The talk to me about loads. I get 1/2moa with 3000fps out of 250smks and 2800 with 300 grain smks.  NO persure signs and the brass is like buying 300 win not a new home each time.

CDC I spwed coffee all over the board when I read your last!

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 15:33:09 (ZULU)

Loopy makes a 20 MOA base for the STD rings (p/n 51734 for the short action RH Remmy).  Don't think they make one for the MK4 rings.

lito:

Thanks for the M118-LR info.  Ordered a Rock Chucker and accessories on Sat. + Laupa brass, Varget, & 175 SMK's. Wanted to make sure that the 30-06 marked "cam" for the 3.5-10 VX-III M3 LR was the correct "cam" for the M118-LR in yards.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 15:37:28 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 16:05:00 (ZULU)

But a midnight shoot with the 50 BMG, and some M48's would be a blast (on all counts ;)  I can still shoot it at the the Lyamn Range (from the old days of the Lyman scopes, and dies company), as the owner and I go way back, but they are discouraging new shooters of 50's cuz the leetle yuppie guys with the 22's are complaining about their Porche car alarms going off (no kidding... first shot, and half of the car alarms go off. and the headlights start blinkin').

I mean, who locks a car and sets the alarm at a shooting range... only an ex-New Yawker yuppie!!

And of course there's always Fort Drum!!

-

Jake P...

You didn't say which M3 you have, there are two.  The M3-LR (3.5x10 variable), and the MK4-M3 (fixed 10x).

The M3-LR needs about 20 to 30 MOA of taper in the base (or the rings) or it may not go all the way out to 1000 (contrary to what Mike says).

There are exceptions, because there are some slight differences in receiver dimentions from gun to gun, but 98% of rifles won't get you to 1000 with a flat base.  A tapered base from Badger, or Baer, or NightForce will do it for you.  DON'T put a Lupita "STD" base/ring on a tactical riffle!!!  In the 70's, the military had to WELD the rings to the bases to be able to keep the zero.  They are hunting toys only (and not all that good for that!).

The MK4-M3 uses the flat base, and the MK4 one piece base is great, as it is about 1/3" lower than the others.  It is also cut away over the port, for your fingers (you will need the room for your fingers if a round gets stuck in the left side lug slot... happened to Ken "Chainsaw" Hunter, about 50 times at the Carlos match!!)

-

Mike... there are about a quadrillion users of the 3.5x10 M3-LR that will dissagree with you, including me!  I have a 3.5x10 M3-LR, and three MK4-M3's, and I know these scopes like my own living room...

-

Don Smith... with that brass/powder/bullet combo you will be a very happy camper, and the '06 cam will track the 175SMK @ 2685 like they are on railroad tracks.

I don't know if you just ordered the press, or a whole kit, but the RCBS dies are OK for hunting grade ammo, but are very poor (they SUCK) for match stuff.  Get a Redding "BR" seater, or a Foster "ULTRA" seater die, and for neck sizing, get a Redding "S" bushing necksizer, and a .334" TiN bushing for it!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 16:14:26 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 17:11:50 (ZULU)

Now on bases.  I love the Badgers but think about a Leupold One Piece Dual Dovetail, with 20moa cant built in the 30mm rings barsed in place, with 8-40 screws.  That should be fairly cheap and bullet proof.  Not far from the original military M40 design but for a MK4.  You only lose the picatinny rail for NVD or quick chnaging but damm tuff.  That one with all the heat on it I would lap.LOL

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 17:14:22 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 17:37:11 (ZULU)

'yote Bate... BAD PUPPY!!!

You're a real piece of work!!

You made me laugh ;)))

Actually, I love the range finding reticle on my SA Gen 1 for the same reason... it is so damn fast.

-

Mike... the reason I said what I said, was he just said "M3" scope, and I didn't know which one... most if the newbees are getting the Vari-x III, cuz it's about $450-$500 cheaper.  I have one of them cuz I needed the low power for 50 yd movers at Storm, but since Storm is out of the match business, and nobody else is dumb enough to have 50 yd movers for 30 cal sniper riffles, it's not important anymore... but, like you, I prefer the MK4-M3... it is THE sniper scope, and for it, the MK4 flat base is the best around... low and nice.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 17:47:38 (ZULU)

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 17:55:06 (ZULU)

Please post an answer or e-mail me direct.

Thanks for any help

Semper Fi

scott shepard <shepard98@earthlink.net>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 18:11:43 (ZULU)

                                   S. Ashcraft

S. Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
Fort Worth, TX, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 18:26:11 (ZULU)

http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro/intro.htm

... before you start throwing money at gunshops.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 19:07:16 (ZULU)

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
NC, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 19:20:19 (ZULU)

Eureka! Thank you for the link to chesk out. This is exactly the information I was looking for and I thank you for pointing it out. It might have taken a while to get there on my own. I will quit pestering you guys for a while, catch up on a lot of reading, and figure out which gun to get this rolling with.

Pardon my lacking calrity when I said I am moderately experienced out to 300m, I should have said 300 meters. Thanks again.

   S. Ashrcaft

S. Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
Fort Worth, TX, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 19:31:46 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley010202.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 19:34:42 (ZULU)

When Winchester ran Lake City, there was talk of weighing cases, but I don't think Allient will do that, as they are powder makers, not ammo makers.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 19:52:50 (ZULU)

Putting feed down for the deer this morning i met a wild piglet coming down a track in a tractor rut in the snow, when he saw me he tried to turn around in the rut, the snow is over a yard deep there, and the little guy stood maybe half that high, he got stuck side ways in the rut, he's squeeling and thrashing about with his little legs and all i could do was laugh, now i wish i'd caught him, he eventualy got loose and hightailed it.

Pete L

Peter.Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 20:37:20 (ZULU)

JR Moore, place im hunting is very much like the country around Harpers Ferry W.VA. I love calling foxes and other animals, was that a leupold scope? maybe you'd a seen him with a S&B? moon and snow makes it easy though, im making the most of the snow while it lasts.

Reading Blackhawk Down at the mo,

Stuff on L42A1,No4Mk1(T) and the Ross, I haven't forgotten, its just taking a while to put it all together, bare with me guys..

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 21:01:38 (ZULU)

It's ok Jim&Catman ; I kept my mil dot master so I can still do the math. I'll just guess at the dots.  Lets see thats 30" target / 36" times 1000 divided by x number of dots = Distance to target X yards!

Close enough anyway! See any dirt kick up out there?

No wonder that pig was squealin. He thought Pete was gonna offer him a drink out of that Thermos jug!  Anybody remember that movie we had over here one time. "Deliverance" or something like that?  Maybe you would want to bottle that.... There's a market for pig lure in Arkansas among some of them hill guys I guess.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 21:08:50 (ZULU)

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 21:28:36 (ZULU)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 21:45:46 (ZULU)

Back to lurk mode.

Cory

Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 22:00:59 (ZULU)

You and others made a choice to live in the northern tundra, and look forward to walking in snow up to your nads. I did not and do not, and now it's starting to snow here and is getting cold as that famous witch's mammerys.

If there is a call-out tonight, I will cry like the big wimp that I am. I even did my run on the treadmill at the gym today, and I hate doing that.

People here are not used to this, so they will all be sliding around and hitting each other all night. The people that come from the north will be doing it too, because they forget we don't have the equipment and salt trucks like where they come from.

Oh well, busy makes the shift go faster.

Semper Fi,

Finger    

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 22:06:29 (ZULU)

Does it compare to my handloads?  I like mine better (plus mine are moly-coated -- ;) -- ).

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 22:09:16 (ZULU)

Honey, I think you need to go to the hospital and get checked out.

Relax hon'.  Take deep breaths.  It's just a rifle scope.

I hope your happy, Bill.

Seriously dude, you okay ?  Get back on your medication.  

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 22:16:21 (ZULU)

The stuff was on the face of my PSS's bolt, and it made the fired primers look funny... kinda pebblie, like reptile skin... I polished it off, so I could read primers, and Rem had a hissy fit when I sent it back for some work... I hadda talk real fast or they were gonna charge me $175 for a new bolt... Rem is real hard to deal with these days... it's the Stren take over, that screwed us all.

You and 'yote Bate are a riot... when I was a little kid, my mom would make a lunch of a sandwich and home made fudge brownies, and some snots would steal the brownies out of my lunch in the locker... this went on for a while, and she got pissed, and mad up a bunch with Exlax for the chocolate in the recipe (about 10 times the normal dose)... the two jerks weren't too smart, and were doing the trots for four days, but kept stealin' them 'til I let it be know what was in them.

Winter has just started, and I already have cabin fever :(((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 22:18:51 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 22:48:39 (ZULU)

I shot some M118 LR over the chrono last weekend.  It averaged 2600 fps.  It was shot out of a Steyr SSG PII.  This lot is loaded with 43.4 grains of ww-760.  I believe this is the powder.  Lito, you want to chime in here????  It is my understanding that the closest commercial equivalent is 748.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 23:05:40 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info re the M118-LR.  My actual concern is wanting to use the 175 SMK with a "cam" in yds. with the Loopy VX-III 3.5 - 10 M3 LR.  Looks like I'll go with the '06 cam and 2685 MV (or as close as I can get).

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 23:14:42 (ZULU)

2600 fps with 43.4 of ball power would hafta be WC750, a non canister WW-748... blended lots of WC-750 are used to make WW-748.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 23:27:45 (ZULU)

Thanks man!  You got my back!?.  

S/F

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 23:44:01 (ZULU)

Earlier today when you said to get the ".334 bushing" for the Type S neck sizer, how did you come up with that size?  I'm going to order some of the dies, but don't know which bushing to get.  Should I get the .334?  How do I determine which one is best for my gun, or does it not have anything to do with the chamber?  Thanks.

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 00:13:11 (ZULU)

Forgot to ask.  Are all expander balls created equal?  Any recommendations there?

S/F

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 00:20:43 (ZULU)

The following was posted by Mr. Catshooter 2 years ago.

Current Data for the M118-LR round... (all you never wanted to know about the M118-LR round, but were afraid to ask).

Fresh from Lake City Arsenal (10Jan00 - 10:30 eastern time)...

Test barrel length -22" (M14 length)

Velocity at 78 feet, (the standard test distance for the military), is 2580...

Gas port pressure (M14-M21-M25) 12,500 psi (copper units)

Average chamber pressure (copper) 52,000... reject pressure (average) 57,500, peak 62,000.

Accuracy requirements... 1000 yards 10 round group size (widest two shots, not mean radius) must not exceed horizontal dispersion of 10.3" (0.98 moa), or vertical dispersion of 14.0" (1.33 moa), or it is scrapped.

The velocity at 78 feet, translates to a muzzle velocity of 2630, for a 22" barrel, and 2680 for a 24" barrel.

On Nov 01, '99, The Gooch also reported "...I've got the NSWC tests on the stuff and according to doppler tests at 25 deg F, 75% humidity, at 600 feet, the muzzle velocity out of a given M40A1 was 2622 for M852, 2630 for M118 and 2681 for M118LR."

The M40's have a 24" barrel.

And, as I recall, "Sinister Dave" also gave the same 2680 from a source that he has.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>

USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 03:28:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.132)

Archives are great.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 00:22:37 (ZULU)

Ditto on Steve's question on the bushing size for the Redding Neck Sizer die.

Also, should I full length size the Laupa brass the first time, the shoot it to fire form?  Or is the FL sizing not needed the first time?

Steve:

BTW, Sinclair has slightly better prices than Midway on the dies that lito suggested.  They carry the Forster Ultra Seater and Midway doesn't.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 00:41:44 (ZULU)

'lito, when you say, "get a .334 bushing" do you intend to use an expander ball too??

I'm wrong enough so I might be wrong here but unless you turn the neck walls to a uniformed thickness using a neck-sizing bushing alone might result a all manor of neck tensions.

Just for the heck of it I just measured the neck wall thickness on three different headstamped cases they ranged from .014 to .017 thick with as much as .001 variation from one side to the other.

I neck-turn cases for one of my rifles and have great results with my Wilson BR dies.  I just don't see how it could be done without neck-turning.

Just wondering??

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 01:01:33 (ZULU)

I said it's a place to start because you can adjust the neck tension to see if you get better groups with them. I actually did this with my 300WM and the same load with .001 less neck tension shrunk groups right up. Don't go too loose because you might have bullets moving around when you don't want them too or too tight because it can build up some pressure. I'm pretty sure Lito got the .334 size because usually with a .308 the OD measurement of the loaded round is around .336 or .337 depending on the brass. If you subtract the .002 from that you can see where the number came from.

When you get these don't skimp and get the uncoated bushings. The coated bushings are much better. Also buy a couple of sizes. I have .331, .333, .334, .335, .336, and .339. You might ask why I have the last one. Well this is why and if you look on Redding's site they also explain it. If you try to size the neck too much, like over .005 then it can make your brass run out jump and it will also in some cases like mine size the brass to a few thousandths less than you actually want it like .333 when you're using the .335 bushing. My brass is about .342 after firing so I have the .339 to do a mid size and then I use the .335. You might think it sounds funny but it actually works. Just some things I learned the hard way and I'm passing on so you don't have to.

I also second the Forrester Ultra seater. I just got one for my 300WM and it is very nice. I have a RCBS benchrest seater for my .308 and I'm thinking of retiring it and getting another Forrester. I also like to use Sinclair more than Midway now. Sinclair seems to have more things I use and usually at the same price or less than Midway if Midway has them at all.

Andy's Dad, I understand what you're saying and to tell you the truth I don't have a good answer. I just know it works for me and sometimes you need blind faith ;) Maybe Lito can let us all know.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 01:19:32 (ZULU)

This might not be all that motivating to ya'll, but I was at the Chandler shop today, and my stock came in today. That means they will be starting to build my new .308 rifle. Guess I will be taking homemade goodies and cases of beer to the shop, and keep those boys hopping. OOOOORHAAA! A new toy to play with soon. Now, I'm really pumped, and it's already paid for too.

Now, I wonder what my next toy will be? Maybe a.......

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 01:37:57 (ZULU)

    Got a Question, in all of the discussions about long range shooting, none of the calibers mentioned are 7mm.  50cal down to 6.5 and .223, but no 7mm? What gives? 168SMK grain 7mm has a bc of .488 and the 168SMK .308 a bc of .462, while the 6.5 SMK 155gr has a bc of.570. Is no one shooting any 7mms worldwide? Seems like it would make a good candidate. Inquiring minds want to know!!

    The New Year bodes well. Anniversary today! Maybe get lucky tonite!!! Hah!

     Had to shoot a cow yesterday, had a cancer in her eye that would not get better and she was on her last legs anyway. Shot her at 400yds with a 7mm Mauser improved, 140gr @ 3140. Knocked her down with a lower chest hit. Shot three coyotes off of her tonite. Its cold and they are hungry. They had her about 1/3 eaten overnite.

     All you big boomershooters, ya'll can shoot out to as far as you can see out here, 1500yds or more, everyday! Come on down and ya'll can get in on the infamous "MultiDistance Milkjug Shootoff".

   Basically its a "run what you brung" fun shoot. Milkjugs full of water at anywhere from 200 to 1000yds, everyone gets one shot at a time untill the jug goes down, then its on to the next jug. Five jugs at a time, when they are dead, five more are placed at different spots. Around 500yds seems to be the culling point most days, some days 350 yds! Lots of fun and shore makes the good shooters work hard! By the way, only guy that gets to use the lazer rangefinder is me, since I have to keep score. Only thing you win is a pile of dead milk jugs. And the fawning adulation of scores of young nubile shooting groupies! Hah, Just kidding. Drop me line if you are headed this way, maybe we can set one up.

Rex

Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 02:05:59 (ZULU)

Any response would very helpful.

Semper Fi

Shep

scott shepard <shepard98@earthlink.net>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 02:17:24 (ZULU)

Allegheny Sniper Challenge

John Markwell and I (some of you will remember us from recent Storm Mountain Matches) have decided to host a little get-together for an informal match near Seneca Rocks, West Virginia (40 minutes from Storm Mountain for those that are familiar with Rod Ryan's facility). The goal is to have fun, shoot, and provide an opportunity to meet each other.

Here's the basic plan:

1. First of all its free-just come enjoy the West Virginia mountains and Shoot!  Shoot! Shoot!  Afterall, isn't that the part of this that we like the most?

2. Two day event (Sat/Sun) with a bring your own slab of beef cook-out Saturday night. A good time to swap lies and have a beer together.

3. No prizes-just bragging rights.

4. There will be some low stress hiking involved.

5. Time: late April or early May.

6. Camping and hotels available close by.

7. The shooting- and  lots of it! With a wide variety of challenges from 100 to over 1000 yards. No fieldcraft components.  This is what we are thinking:

a. 100 or 200 yard groups

b. movers

c. high angle shots at extended ranges - 300 to 600 yards

d. lots of medium to long range shots, some of which will be from positions other than prone.

e. Oh yes-and wind!

8. John and I will not be shooting-we will be too busy making it all come together.

The targets will be a mix of steel, ceramic tile, and paper for the movers.

Additional details will be available as they evolve.  All additional information will be forwarded directly to participants so we can keep the roster clear of posts of limited interests to lurkers.

Depending on the number of participants (maximum of 20 people) and how we move through the schedule we should be able to re-shoot some arrays on the second day.  Our guess right now is 80-100 rounds minimum (assuming first round hits).  This will obviously be a great time to get good data for that new rifle and to get some informal, low-pressure practice for other events later in the year.  300 Win Mag max.

What else?  That should do it for the basics.  

Obviously a great deal of work will be required to make this match happen - move and set up a ton of steel (literally), fabricate and set up target stands for the tile, set up the mover system, and a bunch of administrative BS.  If we do not get a reasonable number of FIRM COMMITMENTS to attend we will not put the time, effort, and $$ money into the project.

Lots of you guys live well within an easy day's drive (many within 3-4 hours) of Seneca Rocks so its time to quit yer bitchin' about the lack of places to shoot and hang out.  Bring your toys-let's shoot!

Email us with your questions, suggestions, and to sign up. It should be lots of fun.

John's email is markwell@hardynet.com

My email will show up below

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 02:43:15 (ZULU)

The instructions for the Redding "S" Bushing die state that the bushing should be 0.002" to 0.003" smaller that the "Finished round dia (bullet dia + 2x neck wall thickness)... but this assumes that the>

With .308 Lapua cases, the neck walls are 0.015", with NO practical +/-deviation... I don't know how they do it, but I measured 20 case necks, at 4 clock points each (12, 3, 6, 9 oclock), and of the 80 neck wall measurements, only TWO weren't exactly 0.015"... one quadrant was 0.0155" and one quadrant 0.016, respectivly :)))))))  This stuff is rightious!!

OK, you take 2 x 0.015 = 0.030", plus .308 = 0.338.  that's the OD of the neck on the finished round... a bushing of 0.334" will give you a neck that is 0.004" undersize... good for tactical loads with slow powders.  This is with annealed cases (NEW!!) that don't have hardly any spring back.  When the necks get hard, then anneal them (or replace the cases).

The "S" die doesn't use an expander ball, cuz there's no point in squeezing the neck down 18 thou, then expanding it up 14 thou... that just beats the crap out of the brass, and hardens the neck walls real fast.  With the "S" die, you just squeez it down to the size you want it, and leave it alone!!

The size of the bushing has nothing to do with the size of the chamber, only with the thickness of the neck walls and bullet dia... if you had neck turned the brass to a wall thickness of 0.010, then you would need a bushing of 0.324"... of course necks this thin, in a standard 0.355 to 0.360" chamber wouldn't last too long before they would split :(((

If you are using range pick-up brass, or non match brass, then the 0.334" bushing is the best compromise, because you will rarely find factory brass below 0.014", and you don't need to be that fussy if you are shooting pick-ups... plus more neck tension is betterer than less!  There's nothing worse than having a bullet left in the chamber (and all the powder dumped in the action) at a match... very embarrasing :((

Also, although you should own a good FL die, you shouldn't have to use it, unless you get fired brass from other sources... don't FL new brass!!

No... all expander balls are not created equal... Redding balls have square edges (I know that doesn't sound too good ;))... and they are very rough on cases, and when I used one, it would lift the bench off the floor, before it let loose of the case :((

The best expander ball is the Hornady.  It's a long elipse, and is a joy to use.

If you buy fired brass, get a Hornady FL die for your first clean-up.  It will straighten out dented mouths, and never "crunch" a neck wall (which the Redding FL die will do with great regularity!)

I hope this answers some of your questions...

-

Andy's Dad... I will only neck turn brass if I can't get Lapua brass for it, and it is a truely match grade chamber/barrel on a bolt gun,  or it is for an undersized (tight!) neck.

Last year, I neck turned 1,100 6mm BR cases for a tight neck 40-XBBR dog riffle (took 3 months :((... and this winter, I'll neck turn some more .222 Mag cases for another 40-XBBR crow riffle, cuz I can't get match brass in .222 Mag...

... other than that, I have gotten to the point that I shoot Lapua in all my good guns.  The .46" group @ 405 yds that I shot last year on the computer disk, was with new, out of the box, unfired .308 Lapua brass... and the 0.008" group @ 100yds I shot two weeks ago with with new out of the box, unfired .223 Lapua brass... that's good enough for me :)))

-

Rex...

>"... but no 7mm? What gives?"<

There are some FBI units that are shooting the 7mm RM, but other than those guys, it hasn't seen much tactical use.  There are some important needs for a tactical riffle... and one of them is barrel life.  If you are going to be any good, you have to shoot A LOT!!!, and any of the magnums have a very short barrel life.  If you shoot 100 to 200 rounds each time out, you will go through 2 to 4 barrels a season, but it will take you so long to ge the stick back from a good 'smith, that you won't be shooting very much... also 200 rounds prone from a big magnum isn't a lot of fun for most guys.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 03:28:58 (ZULU)

Please don't have the movers at 50 godamn yards :((... put them out at 200 or 300.

Consider 1 gallon milk jugs like the other guy said... they make good targets, and are easy to put out, and clean up.

Also, keep posting it on the roster... that way you will get more and more interest as time goes by.  If the lurkers don't like it, they can just page by it!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 03:36:28 (ZULU)

Just got one of those shockers having to do with our finances and some medical expenses that have come up...need to unload some stuff the help pay for the last of Sharran's cancer treatment last year. She is cancer free now, but these are "residual" bills from her treatment.

Got a number of pistols, and some unique rifles, but I'll post this stuff on the Emporium to keep this section "kosher"(am I allowed to use that term?). Will give a price break to our members...

Jim, Enjoy your new Chandler gun. It sounds like a beaut. Unboubtedly, your next "toy" will be a 6.5 X .284. Wish I could get to Blackwater this year and let you get behind mine. You'd love it!

Hepcat is having his dream rifle built now, in 6.5 x .284 and will have it before summer. Then we can have another report to add to mine...to good to be true.

Neck sizing: DON'T use expander plugs/balls! My testing showed that using them, even with competition dies, allows the neck to expand unevenly. Runout from that process ran .003 to .005". Using Redding competition dies and sizing buttons runout was barely readable. Always less than .001"!

I have very set procedures for my handloading an it produces suberb results for me. Consistency is the name of the game.

Just my .02 worth...do what you want. Ain't America Grand!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 03:48:36 (ZULU)

A couple of quick notes.

M118LR is 2680 fps, as per published data from the great wet ones, (also known as swabbies).  Yes they are an improvment by alot.  We shot 200 meters with them for grouping and they will group under 1/2 inch at that range (group sizes ran from 3/8 to 3/4 inch, approximate).  M118SB no way and M852 (168gr) is problamatical with the crap the old dies have been putting out lately.

7mm Mag - The Secret Service used them until the early 90s when they went 300.  I used them with the King's Royal Guard Counter Snipers in Saudi during the early 90s as well.  They were made by ROBAR and shot quite well.  Yes the 168gr in 7mm is optimal to 1000 while the 168 in .308 is optimal at 600.

Hold Hard Guys

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 03:53:14 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 04:04:00 (ZULU)

Anyone know if it's still in use??

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 04:05:33 (ZULU)

I am shooting 175gr Sierra MK's with 44gr of Varget and a Fedral 210M primer.  This is out of a Rem 700 VS with 26" barrel.  I havent purchased a chrono yet and dont know anyone with one so I was hoping someone here is using the same setup and has a drop chart for me.

Thanks

Scott

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 04:05:43 (ZULU)

    Was curious about the 7mm cause I have been shootin a 7 Mauser Improved on a Rem action. 24" barrel. The 168SMK at 2990 carries out to 500 really well and it doesn' kill your shoulder. 52/53 grains of IMR 4350 is max but the brass is holding up well. Not near as much fire and smoke as a Rem 7 Mag and nearly equal MV. Was a round like this ever evaluated or was just the 7Mag used because it was there?

Just curious cause there is not much data on 7mm anywhere in long range shooting info.

   The neat thing about the milkjugs is that they are cheap, easily obtained, and there is not question if you hit it or not!! It is also about the size of a human head so I figure if I can hit it at 500yds I should be able to peg a coyote at that range. Had one hotshot came out one weekend after lots of pre-shoot assurances that he could shoot anything anywhere, had a 300 Winmag with some astronomical 50 mm objective scope on it and he proceded to shoot pretty well until the third round when we put a face and a wig on a jug at 600yds. When he finally zeroed in on that jug with his "Gnat Zapper Scope" and it was looking back, he nearly had a cardiac. It sure was humorous at the time. Try to pull off a shoot of some sort about once a month.

Weather usually cooperates but there is always wind in this part of the country.

Rex

Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 04:25:53 (ZULU)

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 04:28:03 (ZULU)

Below comment was made by Wes Howe recently.  Should help you out.  Crank 2650 MV into a ballistic calc and then verify it.  As always YMMV.

"Most of the list members, self included, swear by VARGET. My load is: A Sierra 175 MK, 44.0 gr. of Varget, Lapua Brass, and a Federal 210 Match primer(210M). Overall length is 2.800".

"This gives an honest 2,650 Vargfrom my 26" barrel."

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 05:57:34 (ZULU)

Don Smith: Sent Scott Chapman a Excel spreadsheet, with my .308 come-ups, for my Varget load, you quoted. I'm flattered...I has arised...;-)

Agree that milk jugs make great targets. Very visible and easy clean up. Added fun can be had by taping one of the "exploding" targets to the front, as well. Make sure you plastic wrap it...that way if you miss the exploder and still hit the jug you won't dampen the target and it can be used again.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 07:34:27 (ZULU)

Oh man, just when I think I've got this all figured out I learn something new.  I hope I haven't stepped on my poncho here.  I bought all virgin Winchester brass for my new stick.  I decided to load all the ammunition for this system fully resized because of my concern for reliability and cycling speed.  I'm getting reasonable groups (sub MOA) but no screamers.  I resize using the Redding FL die and yep it does crunch a neck from time to time.  The neck wall thicknesses vary as much as .001 from case to case and any given case may have a neck thickness variation of almost .001.  So I pretty much ruled out the bushing style of resizing.

I shoot a fair amount but the 500 cases I've got loaded won't go through more than three cycles per year.  I hope to get at least ten (FL) reloads per case before signs of failure.  Is this a reasonable expectation?

My number one system has a chamber neck dimension of .335 and I've turned all my IMI Match brass to .012 wall.  I load for this system using Wilson BR dies and it shoots splendidly.  However cycling the bolt gets a little sticky sometimes and it really doesn't work well in high-speed drills.  The groups however are "bragable".  I've only recently purchased a body die and will try using this to bump the shoulders back.

'lito.... Please advise.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 12:44:10 (ZULU)

Don't bother with WW ball powder, go with either VARGET

REPEAT- VARGET

reccomended - 44.0 gr., 175 gr MK, Case Du'Jour, Fed GM-210 primer,

2.800 OAL

or RE-15 following their load reccomendations.

Just cuz the Govt uses it in the M-118LR (W-W ball propellant types), Don't mean its the bestest! They use what they can get domestically and at a "prudent" cost to allow a gasp ......."profit"

THE KEY HERE IS RELIABILITY UNDER ANY AND ALL CONDITIONS, itty bitty BelchRest groups are great, but if the rifle chokes during an event or real deal (I know, Iknow  FACTORY AMMO.......)

YOU'RE FUBAR

Ofta renew my obi wan kenobi of drywall hangingship *:-0

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 13:28:38 (ZULU)

How bad did you get snowed on? We didn't get hardly anything yet. Weather guessers are saying we might get some more today. I really don't care as long as it's not ice. Do think the guys might get pissed at me, if I have them all go to the range for weather data? (evil laugh)

Semper Fi,

(frozen)Finger  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 13:58:16 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 15:08:39 (ZULU)

 Imagine being on the Buffalo, NY PD

 Over six feet on the level.  Wait'll the wind picks up.

 Upstate New York in the winter.......gotta love it.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 15:25:19 (ZULU)

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 15:50:01 (ZULU)

The Winchester is VERY GOOD brass... my first choice in domestic brass.  With "almost" 0.001" runout, and 0.001" variation from case to case, "Stop yer bitchin'!" ;))

Unless you are a benchrester in competition, don't get anal and let a silly little thou ruin your day... use the bushing die and "git on wit yo' life"!

Only use the Redding FL to size pickups, or other fired brass... if you are shooting gas gun, then a combo of a shoulder, and body is a good idea, though time consuming.... but Redding makes a FL "bushing" die, which I have in both .223, and .308. so you can put in a .0.334 bushing, and then FL the cases, without crushing or tearing the necks... NO EXPANDER!!

The body die will size the body and shoulder... you can get a "shoulder bump" die, which will only touch the shoulder, and not the body.

Also you don't have to have the FL die all the way down to the shell holder... start out with a bunch of fired cases, and the die about 2 turns above the shell holder, then size one and try it... it no workie... turn the die down a bit, and try another, and do the same until one goes into the chamber with no fuss... most FL dies over size cases so they rattle in the chamber... use the least you have to.

-

Bill Moore... I can't comment on the Winlite stocks, but the Winchester barrels are out sourced to companies like Douglas, Wilson, and others, and are the best of the factory rifles (so says the barrel cryo company that inspects each barrel with a bore scope before they dunk it!)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 15:50:48 (ZULU)

Redding makes a "Small Base Body Die" that will "small base" resize your loaded rounds (I know, the instructions say "NOT FOR LOADED AMMO".  It will squeeze your case walls down that extra thousandth or two, but will not touch your neck.  You'll have to adjust it so it won't touch the shoulder.  Should save you time on your already loaded rounds.

I've read that the single benchrest trick that will show biggest improvement in your groups is to uniform trim and deburr the primer flash hole (the inside one) using a hand tool to cut a nice chamfer on the inside (I think my RCBS tool was around $12).  You only need to do it once, ever.

If you're neck-turning the outside are you also inside reaming the neck?  Supposedly each time you neck turn, shoot, re-size, and outside neck trim again the brass flows to make a thicker ring on the inside of the case neck at the neck/shoulder juncture.  Benchresters call this "The dreaded doughnut" because it may grip your bullet differently in each case.  I don't know for sure, since the only cases I've neck-turned have been once-fired Fed Match for hunting loads in a 700V (they sure are accurate, though.  I've put five and ten rounds in under a nickle at 100 with 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips).

Shoveled snow off the driveway in Fayetteville this morning.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 16:15:03 (ZULU)

You should feel lucky.  We are up to about 8" here in the Charlotte area and it is still coming down rather heavily.

I've got to be back in Quantico by Sunday night.  I might have to leave today before this gets any worse.

Fingers crossed.

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 16:15:26 (ZULU)

http://www.nucleus.com/~cronhelm/ballistics.html

It has some good ballistics software and conversions tables.  

You will need to have Excell because it is in a spread sheet form but that makes it very easy to print off the tables to keep with you when you shoot.

Dave

Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 16:55:20 (ZULU)

Since when are the SEALS (or any branch of the military) using 75 gr .223/5.56?  I thought that M855 was the standard issue load?

Moe (match ammo challenged)

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 17:22:41 (ZULU)

  You can't beat the Lapua, its the most consistant that there is period!! You don't have to neck turn it or clean up flash holes(Drilled not punched) and the pockets are uniform. I bought several hundered rounds about 3 years ago to make 260 brass out of and had some left and checked it against some I picked up at the D&L shoot and it all weighed within +or- one grain of each other.

 Your best dies are definately bushing dies. Do just what the guys have said on here and they work great. Your biggest porblem with run out is either thick brass or the expander in your die. If your brass is thicker on one side it will most always pull off to one side during sizing. Neck turning will help solve this problem if its not to bad.

  For none bushing dies I like the Forrester BR dies the best, there cheaper than Redding and  I think they work better. I don't know if they make a bushing die yet but if they do I am sure they will be top notch and cheaper also.

 Cutting flash holes, neck turning, primer pocket uniforming, does it all help??? Yes, but only at long ranges and if you doing BR shooting at 1000yds. Do I do it?? DAMN RIGHT!! Did I mention that I was anal retentive?? I just don't want any surprises that I can't control myself or screwup myself thats why I do it.

 If you use Lapua brass or Norma you can forget about all the above because its a waste of time. Its that good.

lito'..

  I have moved into my new loading room and the fist thing I did after unpacking was go through the brass I picked up in Wyoming (Off the range) and with what #1 son gave me I now have 1270rds of cleaned once fired LAPUA 308 cases!! EAT YOUR HEART OUT(HA).

Yote Bait..

  Say it isn't so, all Shepards!!! Traded mildots off!! Whats wrong with you!! Seriously, for what you do the Shepard is damn quick and if you taylor the load they work as good as anything out there. Just don't put one on a 300WM it will break you nose, no eye relief on the one I had. If you could put the circles in a Leupold I would own one. I don't care for the one shot zero or the other things he has in there but I did like the circles quick and deadly out to 600yds.

Chris,

 What barrel are you going with on the 6.5x284?? Have you decided yet??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 17:28:47 (ZULU)

I'm a lurker (mostly) from Ohio. Sign me up for the spring shoot in WV. And keep us posted!

The last weekend in April would be bad due to the already scheduled comp in OK (Bobby, Steve, & Co. at Badlands). And the first weekend of May is Hardrock's Match #3 (near Ft.Brag, c/o Bill Huskey).

-Danny

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
akron, ohio, usa - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 17:51:51 (ZULU)

Congrats on the riffle-raffle!  On the ammo issue, back about 1995 or so there was a ruling by the Attorney General regarding the use of "match" bullets by the military.  Since the SMK's (and other similar match bullets) are a solid lead core, and the "hollow point" does not extend into the lead core, and the design is for accuracy-not fragmentation, the "match" type of bullets were determined to be non-frangible and therefore suiteable for combat use.  So now, M-852, M-118LR and now this 5.56 stuff can be used where accuracy is necessary.  As for 10 Million rounds, that's a HELLUVA lot of ammo.  I mean like TRUCKLOADS, literally.  Maybe whoever told you that was exaggerating a little (or maybe they're buying a few years worth of ammo all at once).

In the meantime, give Champions Choice in Tn a call and get some of their 5.56 reloads from HSM.  About 1/3 cheaper than Fed. and doesn't blow primers in a match bbl (Krieger) like Feds do.  They can be had with different bullets, and I've used the 77SMK molly load with good results when I was in a clusterf$%k of a move and couldn't reload my home-brew.

T-Out

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
Dela Where?, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 18:24:33 (ZULU)

Here's what I have on some 5.56 Navy Match boxes I kept:

Box 1

"50 Cartridges

CAL 5.56MM SPECIAL MATCH

MK 262 MOD 0

LOT# BLH00E002-001

1305-01-474-3856/AA50

CONTRACT# N00164-00-M-0502

MANUFACTURED BY

BLACK HILLS AMMUNITION

77 GR BTHP"

Box 2

"50 CARTRIDGES

CAL 5.56MM SPECIAL MATCH

MK 262 MOD 0

LOT# BLH 01D002-001

1305-01-474-3856/AA53"

Box 3

"50 CARTRIDGES

CAL 5.56MM

77 GR. SIERRA MATCHKING - MOLY COATED

LOT# BLH01E002-001

CONTRACT# 00264-01-P-0133

MANUFACTURED BY

BLACK HILLS AMMUNITION"

I don't have a box for the 75s, but I shoot the molys.  You can duplicate with Hornady 75 BTHP Match molys and 24.5 of VARGET, WSR primer.  I think some of the Hornady 75 loads go up to 24.8 for  500-600 yards.

Army acceptance standard for M855 NATO Ball ("Green Tip") is a 4 inch group at 200 yards.  Not exactly match grade stuff.

Congrats on the M1A!

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 19:00:57 (ZULU)

would file bankrupcy within 6 months....let's here it for Rosie

someone has ordered 2000 OD stock packs from Eagle Industries

TomC <Flcookfamily@cs.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 19:22:17 (ZULU)

Went to: http://www.nucleus.com/~cronhelm/ballistics.html that you posted and did mucho downloads of his computers, etc.  Noticed on the BC chart that I downloaded that there is no listing for the 175 SMK.

Anyone have the BC for the 175 SMK handy?

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 19:51:36 (ZULU)

Go to sierrabullets.com for all the BC's for sierra bullets.

the BC for the 175MK is .496 @ 1800-2800 fps.

Some of the BC's in that chart are not accurate, compare the 168MK in the chart to the Sierra web page, if I remember corectly the chart is off.

Dave

Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 19:59:51 (ZULU)

Any one have the address for the Emporium.

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 20:01:04 (ZULU)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=82806

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 20:11:37 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info.

Ryan:  Just go to the top of this page and click on Emporium.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 20:15:14 (ZULU)

Last week, the finacial report for K-Mart was filed by their auditors, and the internal people at K-Mart have directly blamed Rosie's anti-gun policies, and her attack on Tom Selleck, for the boycott that resulted in the closing of nearly 80 of their stores already, and the pending bankruptcy.

What goes around, comes around... I hope the rest of the retail industries get the message... we are 100,000,000 purchasers and we get pissed!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 20:51:38 (ZULU)

Lowe might be the  manufacturer of that pack.  Just a guess.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 21:00:10 (ZULU)

No, it was 30 FBI, and after reading some I believe it's the same round as 30-338.  The smith has a rifle he built, a Nesika Bay action with a 30" Krieger flutted Stainless tube, Jewell Trigger and a specially made McMillan Prone stock that was solid fiberglass and weighed in at 6lbs, with adjustable cheek piece and 4 way butt plate.  ADL trigger guard and anshutz rail.  It wore a S&B PMII 10x42 in what looked to be Badger rings.  Scope/rings were off the rifle when I handed it.

The smith said the rifle cost the Treasury (Secret Service), get this, $40,000.  The rifle itself can be re-built for $6500 without the optics, and the other $34,000 went into 6 - 12 months of developing CBS drop table in differing weather conditions/ranges at Oak Ridge in Tennessee.  Only one shot per day, and it went back into the case.  The rounds he had on hand were 240gr SMK's but he also had some of those special Oak Ridge,  Powell River Labratory bullets.  

I'd have to say, it was one slick stick, but the entry price is too steep for me.  I figured he had about $3500 in parts invested, said he'd build me one for $6500.  I'll tell ya though, the next Government agent that wants to pay me $34,000 for figure out their CBS drop chart is gonna get a handshake and a swift YES SIR!!

Pat,

I took George's advice and went with a 26" Rock SS barrel contoured to #7, in 1:8 twist (actually 1:8.5"), chambered with a JGS pilot reamer.  I can't believe the turn around George has,  I may not have time to save for the scope and rings...  This will be my first custom rifle,,, my wife thinks you Roster Hawgs might just be a bad influence ;-)))

She wanted to know how many rifles that check I sent will buy... HA!! I says(quoting someone who posts here ?? ;)  

I don't think she understands....

Chris...

aka. FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 21:06:31 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 21:46:27 (ZULU)

Kevin - You can keep all that white stuff up north.  That is why this Yankee is living BELOW the Mason Dixon Line and not above it.  Still go snow though.  6 or so and it is still coming down as of 1645 (that's 4:45pm to you civies and Mickeys little hand is almost ot the 5 and Mickey's big hand is on the 9 for you Navy types). :- BEL

Moe - The SPRs are eating up the ammo.  It is not for the vanilla M4s or M16s.  2 moa is not an option for the SPRs

Pat - If you mentioned Bench Rest then you are as anal as 'Lito.  We do the flash holes too though.  Hmmmm, what does that make us?

Chris - Am not aware of that weapon system.  When you mentioned 30 cal and big case I thought of the Pheonix round.  It would take the gov't to make a simple weapon system into a 32,000 dollar extravaganza.  When you get contacted remeber me to hold you r ammo for the tests.  I could use a piece of that action!

Hold Hard Guys.

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 21:51:28 (ZULU)

At least your honest with her about the costs,you wouldn't believe the ammount of bargains that can be had because a guy lied to his wife about what he paid for his guns, when he passes on and she wants to sell em on thinking they are almost worthless, my mate with the gun shop often gets called in such cases, he's fair and gives the widows a fair price or a fair opinion and estimate of what she can expect,  of course in divorce cases it might back fire " you keep your guns and I'll keep the car" I sweaten my missus up by pointing out how much i saved on each particular gun, and hey, who wears the trousers any way!! Pete.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 22:09:27 (ZULU)

An old brown shoe squid,

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The frigid Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 22:27:29 (ZULU)

Bush and Powell

Bush and Powell are sitting in a bar.

A guy walks in and asks the barman, "Isn't that Bush and Powell?"

The barman says, "Yep, that's them."

So the guy walks over and says, "Hello, what are you guys doing?"

And Bush says, "We're planning world war 3"

And the guy says, "Really? What's going to happen?"

And Bush says, "Well, we're going to kill 10 million Afghans and one

bicycle repairman."

And the guy exclaimed, "Why are you gonna kill a bicycle repairman?!!!"

So Bush turns to Powell and says, "See, I told you no one would worry

about  the 10 million Afghans!"

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 22:52:37 (ZULU)

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/colt_repro.htm

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 23:07:53 (ZULU)

I finally got some pictures of my SR90 you guys want to see?

check it out.

http://www.geocities.com/hkmp5_2222/sr90angleview.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/hkmp5_2222/sr90sideview.jpg

How do you like the paint job?

I got a bumper sticker a while back, don't know if anyone has seen it but this is what it says:

"Blaming the gun for crime is like blaming the spoon for Rosie O'Donnell being fat."

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 23:11:00 (ZULU)

Guys, anyone have a source for Varget that won't charge me $17 hazardous materials handling fee for a 1 lb can of Varget that costs $18.99?  This is what Cabela's wants.  Guess that goes for 210M primers also.

Preferabily someone who will take American Express.

Thanks,

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 23:16:00 (ZULU)

Gerry  

Gerald Chao <gerryc@teleport.com>
Newberg, OR, usa - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 23:19:38 (ZULU)

Will Robar paint anybody's stick or just their own products?  Very nice by the way.  I am............jealous!  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 23:46:53 (ZULU)

Snow is another reason to fight another Civil War. The Yankies need to keep it UP THERE and we'll keep the sun down here!

I axed the contractor at work today WHY the paving contractor wasn't out mucking the site, packing gravel and getting ready to pave tomorrow. The look in my eyes told him that it really wasn't a question. He said, "it's snowing". I retorted, "and your point is?"

Rod Hansen,

40 minutes as the crow flies or 40 minutes up and down the hills from Storm? And....which direction from Storm?

Hey Rogers!!!

You gonna put that Shepard on a Ruger and really denigrate yourself?

Have a nice day, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
Friggin white in, NC, - Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 23:53:01 (ZULU)

Thanks,

Robar will paint anything you want them too.  The list price is $150 to camo the scope,rings, and base.  The rifle is approx $440.00 to camo.  I had my SR90 camoed when they built it, if I remember right the it ran $350 for everything.  Talk to Tadd he is very nice and I'm sure he would lower the cost.  The finish is very durable.  I have taken this rifle mule deer hunting the last two years.  The pictures were taken the day after this years hunt (notice the dust on the recoilpad).

Robars 5 color desert pattern is amazing too.  Myself I like the woodland better.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 00:07:45 (ZULU)

If you want Varget that bad, let me know at my new mail

sweepman@tds.net

I'll pick it up and meet you at the TN/AL border on I-65.  No shipping required.  I have Champions Choice 5 minuted from my house, Varget is $18.00 + 8.25% tax.  Fed 210M's, S19.00 + 8.25% Tax per 1k.

Let me know..

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 00:30:17 (ZULU)

You guys ever see those 1-800-collect commercials with Eva Save-alot?  Well we have a similar character here.  He would be peteR.

Notice that he is never around till someone mentions Varget?  Once the word Varget pops up; WAM, peteR is present quick, fast and in a hurry:-))))))))) hehehe

peteR,

You guys converted me to Varget long ago.  I mentioned the WC powder because I have some M118 LR that is loaded with that powder.  I have shot some of it on several occasions and have not been impressed.  If any of you guys want to replicate the M118 LR, here is the loading

Lake City case

WLR primer (probably)

43.4 grains WC-748

175 SMK

Cartridge OAL 2.80"

This is it, at least for the Lot that I have.  It is DIRTY!

Sinister Dave,

When you headin out west?

Rod,

Count me in for the shoot in West (By Gawd) Virginia.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 01:04:34 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 01:55:13 (ZULU)

I am looking for the maximum effective range of the following rifles

M1A, FN FAL, and AR 15 A2. Straight out of the box no modifications.

Iron sights only. Thanks

Andrew Baker <jbaker@pinn.net>
South Mills , NC, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 02:26:48 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$F5PSD5QAAANURQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/04/war04.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/04/ixworld.html

If Sadaam has such weapons he will either use them or get what he wants by credibly threatening to use them.  To be on the safe side, we should depose him and destroy the Baathists.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 02:29:32 (ZULU)

Ok guys the range is open and hot.

Hold Hard

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 02:55:33 (ZULU)

Any comments/suggestions welcome.

Bolt- Seneca Rocks is probably an hour closer to you than Storm Mountain- find Harrisonburg, VA on the map (on I-81). Go west/north on Rt 33 to Seneca Rocks, it's about an hour from Harrisonburg.

'lito - Good suggestion about milk jugs but we like tile better because we can match the tile size to distance to achieve a specific challenge.

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 03:32:44 (ZULU)

Where is there a list of long ranges 600 meters plus that civvy,s can go and practice. Thanks guys, I am located in southern NY. Yankee land..he he

Regards. Ryan

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 03:33:19 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 04:09:40 (ZULU)

http://www.crane.navy.mil/supply/01r0102/rifflespec.pdf

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 05:22:29 (ZULU)

Couldn't bite my tongue any longer.

Your post interrupted my prayers for your misguided (if not lost) soul.

"Graphite"? You're showing that you're as old as me....all these young studs are using moly. I use graphite on my Pickett & Eckel N1010T (that's a trig slipstick to you guys out there who were born after my first divorce!), because you always got a #2 pencil and scratch paper to keep track of the decimal point.

Don't matter, though....Time these guys get through sorting out circles, bars, hash-marks and Sheperd/Horbus-Forbus/Sammut/Christmas Tree clutter, the old farts with mildot reticles will have clanged the steel.

Not that I'm biased, mind you.

Besides, them other reticles ain't no good past 3000' ASL!!!

Come visit, we'll hoist a few cold ones, and I will try to set your feet back upon the True Path. Especially during the springtime, when NM wind will even impress Pat (HA!)

The beauty of this site is the exchange of ideas, even if someone questions the mildot reticle!

BTW, ask Ken about the front license plates I make. If your state don't require one, we need to talk.

CDC' and 'lito, look for a package next week. Coming from "Adobe Disneyland."

Best Regards, and praying that you return to the fold,

Bruce

Bruce N.Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 06:31:38 (ZULU)

I need to find a good list and or sumarization of all the new California firearms laws that just got put into effect.

any help?

thanks...

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 06:36:09 (ZULU)

Matt <m57gonefishing@hotmail.com>
clovis, ca(unfortunately), USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 06:41:19 (ZULU)

you ready for this.......

Clinton's dog gets run over and killed!

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20020103/us/clintons_dog_dies_7.html

The local Police stated that "it was strictly an accident"

Give me a break.  File that under "Who gives a Shit"

CR <crscls@poncacity.net>
PC, OK, America - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 09:08:19 (ZULU)

Where is P.E.T.A. when you need them... their policy being swerve to save the animal, and hit the owner.

We can add "Buddy" to the list of clinton's close friends that wound up dead.

After the bashing clinton's been getting the last few months for not dealing with Yo'mama, and his desperate need for attention and headlines, I'll bet his publicist thought this up to get clinton some much needed sympathetic, positive attention... probably tied the damn dog to a manhole cover!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 11:34:33 (ZULU)

I too, am troubled by our brother Bill ('yote Bate) Rogers', and his fall from the graces of the mildot, and his new misguided direction in his shooting life (no doubt brought on by some fast talkin', painted up, sweet smellin' WOMAN sales person in a gunshop).

I have pondered this with great concern, and have thought back to some fragment of the scriptures...

"Yea, though he walks through the valley of the coyote, he fears no misses, for his Shepherd's staff protectith his aim (sometimes).  He wanders from bush to bush (avoiding the burning ones), searching for the perfect coyote that hath be 18" x18", for his Shepherd's staff came with only one warning... "Shoot ye' not a target other than 18", or thee shall miss"

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 13:04:07 (ZULU)

Lurker drmarc

PS. By the way,where is my aerodynamics lesson?

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 13:49:20 (ZULU)

 "I ain't no steenking BR shooter!!" Just anal retentive about my loads(HA). I try to take out all the varriables that I can because I can screw up enough other things on my own.

lito'..

 LMAO, you should write books.

Yote Bait..

 I have the cure for him. My buddies made me a nose protector and had it rivited to a set of shooting muffs. It was a piece of aluminum about 1/2" wide formed to follow the contur of your forehead, nose and chin. They thought it was cute until one of them shot my 300WM from the prone and knocked the right lens out of his glasses(HA)

Bruce..

  I have heard about you winds down there but they couldn't get much worse than ours. Yesterday was the fist day since christmas that it hasn't been 15+ and most days around 25mph and damn cold. Wanted to go coyote hunting tomorrow but the forcast is for 15 to 25mph so guess I stay home and work in the basement. Whats this plate of yours??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 14:35:58 (ZULU)

Reloading:  Nomatter who makes the brass and how "close" the tolerances are, to be 100% all case necks need to mic the same...therefore, turn all necks until their bright and exactly the same.   It don't take but even a .0005" difference to make a pressure difference....

"the dreaded donut" can be nullified by cutting a bit of the neck/shoulder junction when turning your brass....however, if your bullet does not come into contact with the "donut" when seated, most times no difference in pressure or performance will be noticed...

Yes...primer pocket uniforming is a very important proceedure to perform on your brass...it does make a difference as to ignition time, plus, if for nothing else it makes things more consistent...

Even on "drilled flash holes" its still a good practice to run your deburrer a turn or two just for peace of mind....there again, mantaining consistency....

Catman....you and Bill need to lighten up a bit....I've LMAO all morning !!!! hehehe

PS....what's a Ruger???

One more thing.....I've read just about all the "tips, cold shots, articles, commentary" etc. and keep returning to the question about "log and data" books that are maintained.....I have been logging data on everything I own for years but am curious as to what "data" the rest of you guys keep up with in the field and at the range.....

The other week, I think it was "Wes" that was gonna take inventory of his ruck's and running gear.....I'd also be interested as to what others are hauling around.....

Out for now....

JR

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., USofA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 15:03:01 (ZULU)

Andrew - My mistake, I was thinking AR10 after seeing M1 and FN FAL. Even so, the same principles will hold true with the AR15 in 5.56.  Firing the correct ammo (75 - 77 or even 80 gr) will get you the same basic max effective ranges.  The 80 gr will not fit into the mags so you must load it single rounds at a time.  Now, if you shoot military junk in the AR then your max effective will drop down to about 350 meters under almost all circumstances.

Shepard, not that stinking Shepard again!  Lite up their life 'Lito!

Bill - Just what do you use as a reference when you snap shoot a yote running and into the wind.  This old inquiring mind would like to know?  Of course with my mils it works VERY well, but I am Shepard challenged.  Bruce send some of that graphite to Bill.  That way he can put them on his Shepard turrets for all the cranking he will be doing trying to keep up with the changing winds.  :-)

Bruce - What's wrong with graphite, I use it all the time.  And what do your front plates say?

Catshooter - I think it was Bill that threw the poor pup infront of the vehicle to GET the sympathy.

Pat - I know that you are a "real shooter" (sorry 'Lito couldn't resist) and not a BR, but you used the words BR and anal in the same sentence so you had me worried!

Hold Hard guys!

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 15:19:15 (ZULU)

Next time get the light hair one.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 15:55:46 (ZULU)

>"WOW!!! I don't believe it!  I said that the AR15A2 fired 7.62 and NOT A SINGLE SCREAM!  No one pounced! "<

Well, no one screamed, cuz you so deef, it don't make no difference, and no one pounced, cuz you almost as old as me, and we're gettin' on to be national treasures...

... and anyway, what the hell you think they added them leetle "Bolt assist" thingies on there for... they's to push in the bigger boolets.

;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 16:39:49 (ZULU)

This is an excellent examination of the political effect our military actions have had in the Middle East.

"Religious fanatacism thrives on its sense of inevitability, on its sense of divine appointment.  Nothing, therefore, deflates it like military defeat."  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59691-2002Jan3.html

China has interests that are not compatible with our's.  What to do, what to do...?

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20020104-26791972.htm

There's a lot of speculation about who we'll hit next.  That speculation is not worth chasing.  We'll know when we know.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 17:33:17 (ZULU)

It has just been released on the news, that when clinton was governor of Arkansas, and was falling in popularity, his little dog (also a cocker spaniel), was killed by a car... Hmmmm, could there be a "Vast, left wing conspiracy" here??  Hmmmm Inquiring minds want to know!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 17:37:04 (ZULU)

My windage adjustment is not centered in the scope when centered on the target. (not centered with bore). The adjustments are as followes:

Zero to all the way right 28MOA of adjustment

Zero to all the way left  49MOA of adjustment

21MOA difference between left and right so I calculate the Scope is 10.5 MOA out of line with the bore.

I took great care in puting the bases on and it took very little lapping,(could have put together with out lapping).

I know that you rarely will have perfect alignment from the factory, but this seems excessive.

How far out of alignment can you expect from a factory rifle, or is 10MOA out about average for late model high quality Remington?

I plan on installing a Bager base but I don't think it will fix my alignment problem with out redrilling.

Dave

Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 18:41:20 (ZULU)

Hmmmm... nothing else much to comment on I guess.

Out here.

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 19:08:05 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 19:11:03 (ZULU)

Anyone interested, I have a newsletter from a former Army Officer who offers several friendship jump tours with foreign militaries.  

I am hoping to get some time off to go to one in Peru and/or South Africa.

If you want a copy, drop me a line.  

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 20:17:44 (ZULU)

Have a good one,

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 20:46:21 (ZULU)

Range:                 0 m

M/Vel:                 80 Mph

Projectile weight:     1.5 metric tons, (give or take)

Bullet type:           Jeep Cherokee

Manufacturer:          Eagle car corporation

Cal:                   2.1l

propellant:            Diesel.

wham bam, only damage was the hose to the power steering got pulled of and i lost the fluid, shit thats the second one in 4 months or so, last one I hit doing over 90mph, and it rearanged the facial features of my van, glad i was in the bear stoppin jeep with the bull bars !!, sell my rifles, buy another jeep, stop more game,, I wonder if Tony Blair has a dog ??HMMMMMM trip to the UK dog huntin'

Pete.  

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 20:57:30 (ZULU)

Is the Federal Gold Metal 210 (GM210M) the same as the 210M?  If so, I won't have to get Chris to bring me any or make a long trip.

Found the Varget locally today & bought 2 lbs.  Now just need UPS to get the lead out and deliver the cases.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 21:03:39 (ZULU)

Rather than try to describe it, I asked Ken to take a photo of his and post it.

He graciously agreed to do so, so watch this space.....

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 21:58:34 (ZULU)

 per Bruce's note - here's the picture of his mildot plate. All of us hogs should have one on the front of their vehicle....

Displayed is the mildot plate and a suggestive sticker...

Just click on my name or go to:

http://www.mildot.com/images/mildot-plate.jpg

Later on Hawgs,

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 22:40:55 (ZULU)

Any idea what the B.C. of that bullet was? ;)) Maybe PS fluid will begin to supplant moly!

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 22:59:38 (ZULU)

Wanting to show off, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, January 4, 2002, at 23:20:05 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Friday, January 4, 2002, at 23:50:27 (ZULU)

My families condolences and best wishes goes to his family.

OK Bruce how do I get one?  Does the sticker come with it?  If not how do I get one of those?  Full of wants tonight ain't I?

Hold Hard guys, you never know when it really is going to count.

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 00:35:40 (ZULU)

200,000 lbs.  

They wanted a fight, they got a fight.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 01:10:40 (ZULU)

Nobody pounced on you cause we is scared you might send some of your students over to whack us in the peepee!  Respect is great, huh?

So since I figured you might have inadvertently released some secret military intel, I tried loading a Fed GMM .308 into my M16 mag.  Had to pry the lips wide but finally got it in there!

Racked the mag but it no feedy.  Tried several times, no go.  Then I tried 'lito's "idea."  The bolt assist worked but only after whacking it with a 3 pound sledge.

.308 round is now jammed halfway in AR15 chamber.  This doesn't seem right to me.  Did I miss a step?

Youse bumz is full of sheet!  :-))

Sinister -

When will these new "special receivers" start showing up at the gunshows?  Can't wait to get one!  hehehe

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 01:46:48 (ZULU)

Rick sent you an email on the license plate frame.  Out here in F'd up Ca. the Meter Maids keep ticketing me for my Mildot Plate so I will send it to you. When I move from here I will get another.

Paul/Catshooter, did not jump on you I thought you were talking about the new AR10's and the whatever they call them from American Spirit Arms, brain dead out here again.

Sinister, I have been messing with the 68's out of the M4 M16 and love them.  The man Jeff Hoffman ( The owner of Blackhills for the few that dont know)told me about them and I think we might switch all our entry guns to the 68 grainers. They have great terminal balistics also. Have you guys tested them?  

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 02:14:02 (ZULU)

                                      Jon

Jon <M21SWS@aol.com>
Youngstown, OH, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 02:15:45 (ZULU)

   Lookin' at the roster I would swear that nobody has been able to shoot much!!!! LMAO at the latest!

   Peter, my condolences on your deer, however my wife is 5 and 0 versus the deer so you are fallin behind! Haha! Got six yotes off'n the dead cow. Went out tonite and there is only bones! Amazing! Methinks I will have to get serious on the yote abatement program.

   Been snowing on and off for a week now and it is raining tonite!

I must have been really good last year to get this much moisture so soon this year!! Gotta go, lots of lightnin' and thunder!! Modem may give me a surprise!!

Rex

Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 02:34:23 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$GW45RHQAAA1RPQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/05/wsub205.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/05/ixnewstop.html

This was these chumps' last chance and it didn't happen.

Oh, Castro said that he doesn't oppose our using Gitmo to hold these losers.  For fourty years he has said that Gitmo belongs to him and not the Yanqui Imperialists.  What, do you suppose, made for his sudden generousity?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 02:44:56 (ZULU)

They're made out of aluminum, 1/8" thick.

Computer-cut with a machine that uses water jets at about a gazillion PSI (this machine can do the same, or any other, pattern in 4" thick sandstone without chipping it!)

I've been retailing them for $45 ea., but if any DR posters want one, I'll send 'em for $35 ea., shipping and "...got mildots?" bumper sticker included. (in US ONLY!)

The way I'll know it's one of you folks is as follows:

1. Go to my website (click on my name below).

2. Click on "Buy Direct," then print out the order form.

3. Fill it out, and check the Canadian Version of the Mildot Master, but write "License Plate" off to the right next to the amount.

4. Enclose a check made out to me for $35.00. Mail it.

First come, first served. When I run out, if anyone still wants one, they'll have to wait til my buddy can do another run of them for me, and I have to work these in between the jobs that really pay him. Sorry they're so expensive, but time on that water-cutter ain't cheap!

Sure dresses up the Dodge Diesel, though....and the only folks that will recognize it are kindred spirits.

Rick, you made out pretty good. You ought to sent a thank-you note to those Meter Maids that are hassling Mike!

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 03:40:07 (ZULU)

Finely... after all this dead dog, shephard scope, and other cold weather stuff... some real SNIPER FOO:

A few months ago, I hinted that Premier had somfin' in the works, but I couldn't say anything... well I'm gettin' the first sample/prototype this coming week. Dick Thomas down at Premier Reticles, has come up with a new mildot reticle for the 3.5x10 M3-LR scope that will solve many of the complaints of the standard one...

It has...

1 - Round dots on glass, instead of football dots on wire... this makes reading sizes of targets easier, because the junction of the round dot is almost 90 degrees to the line, whereas the football dot just flows softly into the wire, with no hard junction, or end of it.  Round dots are more accurate.

2 - (A real goodie)... tick (hash) marks at every 1/2 mil to make reading fractions twice as accurate.  With practice, you should be able to read to 1/20th of a mil.

3 - (A R-E-A-L goodie)... the reticle is placed in the focal plain just following the erector cell (often called the first focal plane)... which means that you don't have to use the mil scale at only one magnification... the mils are accurate at ALL magnifications, so you can use your mildots for tracking/traping short range movers at low powers and high powers with the same data...  There are more advantages to this, that I'll get into later... but this is a winner.

There are still patient and copyright issues to be done, but these will be filed, and finished by the end of the month... the scopes will be available as complete new scopes, or retrofitted to your current 3.5x10 M3-LR.

I have a .jpg of the reticle if you need one... send a note to:

<coburn@optonline.net>

(Don't all e-mail at once ;))

OK... now finish your carrots and spinache and go to bed (dreaming of mildots dancing in your head).

-

Bruce... hold a mildot plate and sticker for me, I'll send you a check.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 04:42:33 (ZULU)

http://www.photoasa.com/cgi-bin/photo.fcg?uid=5955&v=3673&d=192.1.1.61

By the way, do not use cheap nylon zippers on the legs. Damn things have already busted. Going to strip them off tomorrow and figger out another way. Probably buttons and loops or HD velcro.

Next ghillie will be a combination deal based on weather. Going to invest in a set of insulated and non-insulated Carhart coveralls and make an interchangable ghillie net, burlapped out, that can be attached to either set of coveralls based on hot or cold weather. Don't know exactly what the attachment method will be yet. Probably 550 cord loops that I can tie the netting on with. This is getting to be an expensive habit.

Lito San, any guestimate on the price of the souped up M3?

Computer challenged, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 05:07:11 (ZULU)

Jon, what type weapon are you wanting to do the training with. Bolt gun or AR. I'm a "Designated Rifleman" on SAPD. Our instructor knows lots of drills and crap for that type of rifle. I can give you his number if you would like to talk to him. Perhaps he may help you with an outline. He is a full time instructor so you may have a difficult time catching him. But it could help.

Peter, I reccomend using the the Dodge Ram 2500 for deer and other big game. The optional Ranch Hand grill gaurd adds to the terminal ballistics. I got a fork horn whitetail with only a slightly bent bumper.

My prayers got out to the SF troop and his family.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 06:55:08 (ZULU)

Pete, leave the poor bloody dog alone,get its "master".

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 07:07:53 (ZULU)

Lito: We are expecting a full report on the new Loupy reticle conversion.  I'm ready to send my LR M3 for the update as soon as they start doing them.  Then I will have to shoot my .223 with the Shepard scope on it until I get it back.

Out

TonyM <TAM308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!! - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 13:11:14 (ZULU)

Can you let us in on whether or not they'll be doing the same modifications to the LR M1??  I'm about a month away from buying a MKIV M1, but could easily be persuaded to change over to a M1LR if it was to have options like this in it's bag of tricks...

Maybe Ken could post a link to that reticle?? It might save some traffic on that your server...

Brian Sain, you on a roster vacation??  Haven't seen you post since before the new year, hope all is ok in your A.O.

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 14:57:43 (ZULU)

Going to the local gun show this morning. Is never a great show here,

It's more of a social event with coffee. Maybe i can find something interesting.  

Later all,

Finger

Jim Reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 15:01:06 (ZULU)

Anyone know the bbl twist rate for an Enfield #1 Mk3/2A, the rifles that have been rebarreled to .308?

Not my rifle or I would do the cleaning rod trick.

Sinister,

When are you going out West?  You going to be at any of the Butner matches this year?

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 15:10:07 (ZULU)

Probably won't get back to Butner until April or May at the earliest.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 15:14:34 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 15:18:04 (ZULU)

This makes my damn day. :))))))

Thanks for all your diligence in the Lupita matters 'Lito.  You've helped most of us small fries more tha you could fathom. I don't think that can be said LOUD ENOUGH...

now, wonder if that round dot reticle w/ hash marks will be fitted to the MKIV's someday.. hummm.  

Bolt,

That guille looks,,,, DELICIOUS!!  

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 15:26:38 (ZULU)

Am mounting my badger rings onto PRI one piece base.  What is the torque recommended for tightening the ring bases to the mounting base?  Thanks.

David W <weldedwelk@twave.net>
Hickory, NC, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 16:43:16 (ZULU)

Getting excited about the next experiment, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 16:57:40 (ZULU)

The mounting nuts are tightened to 65 in lbs on a badger base.  Don't imagine it's any different with any other quality base either.

Fatboy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 17:23:22 (ZULU)

I have mounted a GG&G one piece base w/15moa cant on to a Rem PSS 308 short action.  On top are GG&G med rings 30mm. Glass is vari-III LR M3.  When it is zeroed at 100 I slip the BDC back to 1 and lock it. Now I come up to 1000 it stops at 800.  Is there something wrong with my install or config. Or do I need a flat base?  

Please assist.

Scott

Semper Fi

scott shepard <shepard98@earthlink.net>
- Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 17:44:04 (ZULU)

HA!... USO listens until they have your check!  Lookie, USO is a small company, and their scopes are made in the Chinese menu system... they take different parts, and screw them together to make what you want... it "seems" like it is custom, but it ain't... it's "I'll take an objective from columm "A", an erector cell from columm "B", elevation turrets from columm "C", etc, and they just screw them together... sometimes with good results, and sometimes with not so good results.

Leupold is much bigger, and changes come slower for us tactical peoples, cuz even though our products are at the top of their line, we are a tiny part of their market... also, they have to really know that the changes are needed or necessary, and not the whim of a wannabee who knows nada about what they are talking about.

Speaking of which, Lupita has... Naw I still can't tell ya!  There are bugs to be worked out.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 18:00:42 (ZULU)

Thanks for the 65 inch-pound torque info.

If anyone has zeroed a tasco super sniper scope 10x42 M, please email me.  I would like to ask a couple Qs before I get to the range with mine.  Thanks.

David W <weldedwelk@twave.net>
Hickory, NC, USA - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 18:04:44 (ZULU)

Scott Shepard...

The GG&G base doesn't have enough "taper"... 15 moa it too light in the loafers... I keep telling youz bumz that you need a MINIMUM of 20 moa, 25 is more betterer, but do you don't listen to the ol' CatShooter...

Naw!

Get a Badger, a Baer, or a Lightforce base.  They have what it takes.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 18:06:28 (ZULU)

On US Optics I dont agree with you on the simplification of the custom way things are made there.  I have been there while they put scops together and from what John has told me you have not been to the facility.  They have different errector assemblies, reticles, lenses, tubes and turret assemblies, plus lit reticles.  Now granted some of the parts interchange but that is not a problem.  Reticles of the same design typically go into several scopes of the same power settings, or you can take a ten power mildot reticle and put into another scope for 2moa dots.  Some things work togeth and some dont.  John will tell you what works and what does not.  They offer scopes with 44,46, 58 and 80 mm objectives.  You have in a short the choice of a sniper objective to the Hubble Objective (80mm).  You can get what you want.  This is not the case with many other companies. Take Nightforce NXS, a great scope.  I called and asked for adjustments of either 1/2 or 1moa and was told "No".  I asked for a 2-10x4044mm and was told "No"  Well atleast when you call Nightforce or US Optics you get an Optics Guy to talk to.

Now if Leupold would hire someone like you to head up products I would probably flock back to them but lets face it they have become a big corp and the bottom line is now profit.  When they came out with the Ultras it was about profit but more about being the best.  You and I both know with Leupolds money they could make scopes to kill anyone else as competition but currently are just selling old 80's technology. Lets improve the quality of the glass on the MK4 and make just a little bit more rugged.

If they are to be the best again they need to upgrade the MK4, make the VariX3 M1 and M3 to the new MK4 specs (Better glass and more durability) Ask the military how the Varix3 M1 and M3's have held up. They were once the best but sat back and became fat with success.

If you were incharge this would not have happened. So dont any of this as an attack on you.  Its not.  I hope you can talk some sense into Leupold.  It will make all the companies do better.

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 19:25:43 (ZULU)

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 20:10:45 (ZULU)

florida <bohica999@hotmail.com>
Florida, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 20:27:32 (ZULU)

From my non-professional perspective the M3 and the M1 are different dogs in the show.

The M3 is not a benchrest or hunting type of scope. It is designed to allow an operator to quickly range and adjust the scope without having to count 4 clicks for every 1 moa. 1 moa at 1000 yards will hit in a 10" vital area of most 4 and 2 legged critters. You don't have to get in the 'center' of the vital, just in the vital for a kill at 1000. So, 2.5" or 1/4 moa or 1/4 click doesn't really mean anything at 1000 yards.

The M1 with the 1/4 moa clicks comes closer to target and hunting adjustments when you want to get dead center of a vital. If you try to use the 1/4 clicks in a tactical environment, you have to count 4 clicks for every moa of adjustment. The elevation out of my PSS with Blackhills 175's for 1000 yards is 42 moa or 42 clicks with my M3. In the field I could easily loose count if I had to count to 168 to get to the same elevation.

If you are target shooting with an M3 you will drive yourself (speaking from experience) crazy trying to get dead center at closer ranges by adjusting 1 moa at a time. You can do it much easier with an M1 and 1/4 clicks.

There have been several threads on illumtinated reticles and none of them came up in the affirmative.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 22:27:14 (ZULU)

Hope I didn't cause any ill will among any of you Roster Hawgs.. but the typed word doesn't always display the correct sentiment.. Though I must say, that was the most pleasant exchange over Lupita vs. USO I've ever read...  must be old age gettin' to some of ya ;)))

Eager for the review, an wondering what else Patron 'Lito has under up his Matte black with gold band cuff sleeve....

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 22:44:32 (ZULU)

Thanks for the comments. I should have stated from the beginning that the main purpose will be for hunting deer and elk and the like. I hope nobody has issue with my "misuse" of the duty roster. I find that all of the hunting magazines pay more attention to the rifle/caliber of the minute then field craft and long riflemanship. So I just wanted to ask the experts at shooting in the field.

BTW: The scope will go on my Remington 700 HB, with McMillan A4 stock, and Jewel trigger. Of course, I won't be shooting at super long ranges at game animals as I'm not a slob hunter but I would like to have some extended range and be able to hit a wounded animal at "sniper" ranges.

I was thinking the M3 might work for my application since the accuracy doesn't have to be pinpoint, and at the ranges I'll be shooting (say under 400 or 450 yards) 1 moa doesn't factor out too bad. I'm also looking at the KISS factor. If my thinking is flawed please let me know. I noticed that you stated the M3 is not a hunting scope.

I like the illuminated reticle because of my experience that shooting at dark targets against a dark background with a black reticle doesn't work. However, you're the second person who advised my to stay away from the IR.

thanks again,

dk

florida <bohica999@hotmail.com>
Florida, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 23:36:55 (ZULU)

If you are doing the kind of shooting that a M3 was designed for, then you will LOVE them, and there is nothing else that will do it... I have one M3-LR, and 3 MK4-M3's, and wouldn't part with any of them... but if you don't do that kind of shooting, I gari-damn-tee you, that you will HATE them.

As to 1/8 click scopes... same thing... you have to have a riffle that shoots 1/4" groups (or less), over and over, to even be able to take advantage of them, and even then, only benchrest guys, and egg shooters need them.

-

The some of the new test cams are kinda broken, and I've been crunchin' numbers all day...

... I'm all wore out :((

Right now, I HATE M3 cams ;(((

(But tomorrow, I'll love 'em ;)))

-

Chris... don't get upset about the USO thingie... the day that me and the UnDude agree on USO vs Lupita, it will go down in history as a sad day for shooting ;)))

(I gotsa keep that ol' rattle can on his toes... HA! ;)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 23:45:24 (ZULU)

I am working on US Optics to improve a few things also.

Customer service/time to get one

and I want a BDC system more like the MK4, with changeable/ 50moa per turn turrets. Thats in the works.

Competition is good!

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 01:03:45 (ZULU)

I have a USoptics ST10 being built as we speak, JW has built some new turrets that allow 96 clicks per rotation.  My scope will have 1/2 moa per click and 48 moa of elevation per rotation.  This will be a good compromise between accuracy and speed.  (mike just beat me too it, take his advice he knows what he's talking about)

Florida, there is a great hunting site that goes into great depth into long range hunting, check it out

http://www.longrangehunting.com/

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 01:12:09 (ZULU)

There is no reason that you can't use the M3 for hunting, but personally I wouldn't spend the extra bucks for a mildot for hunting distance shooting. You can range animals using a duplex reticle. Get a piece of cardboard and draw black parallel lines at 18" apart which is about the distance between the shoulders and chest of a normal deer. Stand the cardboard up and move back to 100, 200, 300 etc. and notice how the lines fit in the duplex area. Take you a little notecard to write your dope down and carry it with you hunting. Then do the same for the shoulder to chest size of an elk which is I reckon around 24"?

When you spot the deer, elk or mammoth, center him in the reticle and relate that to your dope card. You have then ranged him and you can do a hold on/over/under for the shot. I don't know what caliber your 700 is but I sight my hunting riffles in at 2.5" high at 100. I hold dead on for shots up to 300 with my 308 and 7mag and the shots will fit in the 8" vital that you are looking for.

Don't apologize for mentioning hunting topics on the Roster, specially this time of year. We are all looking for something to do til shootin season starts up.

The long range hunting issue is one that I won't get into cause it causes too much uproar. Suffice it to say that I limit my yardage to my own comfort level.

The only issue I have with an illuminated reticle is dead battery=failure. don't like failures that I can prevent.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 01:52:56 (ZULU)

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN , USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 01:56:12 (ZULU)

If you're going to be out here in the Southern California/LA area and need a place to shoot, we run a semi-informal 600 yard prone match the second Sunday of every month. $25 entry fee and 40% of the take back to the winner and we can always use shooters to keep us humble. We generally have 15-20 shooters show up to keep it interesting. If you get an itch to shoot, email me.

Same goes for anyone else in the area. Tactical rifle/service rifle/what have you. Service rifle sling supported/tac rifle bipod supported, and of course they shoot different classes.

Pat T

Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 02:10:02 (ZULU)

    Man this long range shooting is fun!! After all of the loading, chronoing, shooting at milk bottles at all ranges and in wind etc., I finally got a good chance to use all of the above this evening. Was up in my hidey hole this afternoon and spied some sneaky swines about 600 yards out. They were off to the west and I would be shooting straight into the late afternoon sun, with a 25 mph, 90 degree crosswind. Made the decision to improve my shooting position so I loaded up and humped it about 1/2 mile around to the west side of said swine, downwind and up on a little hill. Low crawled over to the edge of the hill and there they were, 8 of em, strung out from 250 to aprox. 375 yds, rooting around in a prickly pear flat. Would be shooting nearly directly into the wind now.  Picked the two closest and nailed them both. Picked the next one and knocked her down. At this point, the rest decided that some bad juju was coming down amongst them and were exiting the AO to the west. Had to jump up and run about 100 yds to get another firing position. Got prone and tried to slow my breathin, spied them coming up out of a little wash about 350 yds out. Nailed the big sow in the front, she went down and the rest lit out. Got in the zone and waited for the last three to crest the little hill they were goin up and got one more. Shot knocked her down but she got back up so one more finished her. She was 430 yds by the lazer finder!! Hah, some days I eat the pigs, some days they eat me. Cannot thank all of ya'll on this roster enough for all of the wisdom and techniques learned and and all of the wind doping, reloading, sighting, and practice info freely passed on!! Not to mention the good humor and such. Just got back to the house, now gotta clean my weapon and  cool down a little and celebrate with a cold one. Here is a toast to all!!!

Pigged out,

Rex

Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 02:47:33 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$HQWNS5QAABVYZQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/06/wafg206.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/06/ixnewstop.html

The M1 Loopy has its place in field shooting.  It is favored by the type of guy who takes 'Advanced Engineering Math' as an elective because he enjoys doing differential equations.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 03:02:24 (ZULU)

A quick note on the prices for the new premier reticle scopes...

"Pricing will be $175 for retro fit customers scope.  New scope will be $800 for either the M1 or M3.  If the one inch tube tactical is ordered price is $590.  Shipping extra on all prices given."

That's all for now...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 03:56:07 (ZULU)

Rick:: I feel your pain on the movers. Not that you tactical folk will want to change to Sheperds but here's something you might find interesting, I know you are familiar with them.

SHEPERD  On movers. Figure the lead based on your target speed information. Convert Lead distance to MOA @ 100 Yards.  Move the second cross hair set ( one shot zero reticle ) right/left the appropriate lead in MOA@ 100 referring to the MOA marks at the top of the view screen. (small screw driver or coin required). You can also move it up or down if you know the range to coincide with the circles.  You now have a reticle that's spaced to correct lead. Shoot right ON the upside down T reticle. IF the first set of shots doesn't go dead on you can even dial it a little right left up down without affecting the zero of the weapon's main circles at all.

In the case of a walking man at 3mph 90deg. IT should be easy enough to construct a table in the log book for distance and lead.

There will always be a reaction time built in as would also happen on the Mil dots but you can work it out in practice so you know how much to add for a given distance and target speed.

HERE'S ANOTHER FOR YOU others who own Sheperds..   SHEPERD IS MARKED BOTH TOP AND SIDE IN MOA GRADUATIONS IN ADDITION TO THE 18" CIRCLES FOR RANGING. OK!

TO USE THE SHEPERD ON TARGETS OTHER THAN 18". FORMULA IS

(TARGET SIZE IN INCHES)/(MOA@100yds.MARKS) X 100 = (RANGE TO TARGET IN YARDS)

Is that simple or what?

eg. 20" target measures 7.2" on the MOA scale

   20/7.2X100=approx 270 yards.

Pass the Graphite Bruce! My picket is getting a little dry!

this is not in the Sheperd book by the way! Just a couple of things the coyote hunters worked out this week.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 03:58:36 (ZULU)

Here's my question...

I'm an aspiring shooter, hoping to get a spot on the tactical team.  All of my cash is going to a good rifle.  I'm looking for a good resource to help me make my own logbook.  Does anyone know of any?

Thanks for your time.

Regards,

Brian

Brian Lampe <osok_ghost@hotmail.com>
Ontario, Canada - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 04:03:54 (ZULU)

Has anybody taken the Storm Mountain Basic Handgun and the High Risk Personel classes. I have recently applied for my full concealed carry permit for a handgun. I depend on my fathers instruction and experience because he trained me. I shot my only competions at San Lee many years ago. Shooting as never left my life but the reqiured course to apply the permit was increadbly simple. Movie then discussion then short written test. The thing that made me wonder is some peaple (almost) failed, for the little they wanted to know?? Short of joining the military seems most training done is very relaxed. I would hate for my level of training to get somebody hurt or worse. The rifle and shotgun training sound like challenging fun. Any guidence please e-mail me, for not clog the Roster.Thank you.

Regards, Ryan

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 04:40:04 (ZULU)

When I cash in my chips, the only things I'll be remembered for is chile, Dodge Diesels, and mildots. Sad commentary, ain't it?

I'll put some #2 pencils through the shredder for you, Bill. Nothin' worse than a dry Pickett.

Return to the fold, and all will be forgiven.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 05:54:49 (ZULU)

Put a side paralax adjust on the 10x42 PMII.

Produce a 3-12x42 PMII side paralax adj + option of an integrated reticle illumination in the ret ill' turret.

Produce a 4-16 x42 PMII same features as above.

Price the above variables under $1200 (wont hold me breath because the recomended retail of the S&B's is astronomocal, but real retail prices are at least 25% cheaper)

He gave me the impression that some of the above where at least in the pipeline(the combination reticle illumination control and paralax adjuster is a definate for mid 2002) said that they have a couple of new scopes coming out this year, but didn't want to go into  exact detail as they are still developing and said he would be looking into the feasability of my other ideas, my guess is that they are going to be producing a S&B version of the NXS, which have just started to hit the market here in any real numbers. we will see what happens.

On illuminated reticles, Ive heard that the Leupold version is unreliable and prone to failure, Ive had S&B scopes with illuminated reticles now for about 4-5 years, first a 3-12x50 with the L1 reticle, then this 3-12x50 PMII with illuminated mil dot. The only problems i can invisage with these is the battery giving up, S&B do a nice little turret add on that holds a spare battery inside, otherwise I carry one some where else on me.Providing you remember to turn the thing of after use the battery will last ages, as it doesn't need to be permanently on when your in the field, what you do is turn it on and find the correct brightness setting you require, then you set the control between the setting points,just moving the control a half click/ possition to turn it on when required, so in all practicallity, the reticle won't be on more than a few minutes in most situations.

The big question is Do you realy need an illuminated reticle?

Target shooting, ? No.

Tactical/Military ? Maybe, bearing in mind increased possibility of detection, well this maybe a factor to consider with sights like an aimpoint, but would a reticle like the S&B illuminated one realy give you away, that would need to be looked into and tested.

LE ? Maybe, could be a definate advantage depending on your mission.

Hunting? Maybe, for a lot of hunting in the US where it is strictly daylight hunting then no, but for any use in low/poor light situations or shooting at night an illuminated reticle is a definate advantage, it gives you a distinct aiming device, in a situation when a normal reticle would just disapear into the dark target and or background.

I have used my illuminated reticle a lot, ive used it in Scotland at dawn and dusk and in poor weather, where i know of at least a half a dozen bucks that hang on my wall, that wouldn't be there if i had used a scope with a standard reticle and for use at night especialy for the wild boar here in Germany it is a big plus, a great help to placing an accurate shot on these very dark targets, I have seen a tendency time and time again when using a non illuminated reticle for poeple to shoot high (me included) on these pigs, leading to some long chases, but hell they don't always drop in their tracks with a correctly placed shot either.

The final factor to consider is cost, the illuminated retcle scopes are considerably more expensive than ther non illuminated counterparts.

Define your mission, define your requirements, and buy a scope that will fullfill most of your requirements most of the time, the remainder of the time, improvise.

Adjustments, I very much like the 1cm at 100m adjustments on most european scopes, the S&B PMII's have a total of 130cm at 100m of adjustment in one turn of the BDC which is what 51moa, that should get you to 1000m with a 308.

Why you Yanks persist in the out dated, not so easy to figure, inches yards, 1/4 moa clicks etc etc I don't know, your Military measure distance in KM, shoot on ranges that are in M(over here anyway), call in airstrikes using GPS and maps calculated in KN and M, Now I'm as conservative as they come, but I know a better way when I see one using cm m and km is so much easier, its all 10's and 1's, We just got the Euro, aint it time you'all got the CM...

Pete L  

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 10:31:13 (ZULU)

Rex, you're one mean piggie bustin dude, shit man, leave some for me, as soon as its safe to fly again, I'll be knocking on yer door..maybe we could have a sniper country summer BBQ, Rex supplies "all" the meat.

Ref Mr Blair's dog, she was flirting around ole wild bill Clinton last time i saw CNN, Oh you meant the 4 legged one... Gavan we will get rid of Blair as soon as possible, but with all these leftie, lazy mincing commie slobs allowed to vote, not to mention all the damn immigrants, its not so easy..

Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 10:42:41 (ZULU)

My only concern, and I'm sure it's been addressed, is the reticle thickness on different settings.  So, when you test it Sir 'Litosan, if you would enlighten us poor SOB's as to how well the reticle can be picked up in the woods on 3.5x ,at dawn and dusk, I would be mucho greatfull.  When I hunt with this rig, I hunt at 3.5x in the wilderness so I've got a little more FOV and I would hate to loose the cross hair on the offchance my fidgity, bacon smellin' ass ever does see a deer again...  The reticle thickness is just about right for me now at 100y with a 1" paster, but I know this scope isn't designed for target shooting, so if they need to enlarge the reticle to make it viewable at the different power setting, I'm all for it....

You shouldn't teese us like this 'Litosan,,,,  Now the "Cat's out of the bag", and it's damn affordable...  am I the only person this excited about this mod???

Rex,

You're gonna give Pete a complex with all this talk of pigs.  You shoot in the day, in nice weather, and are getting so many he'd have to take out a second mortage on his house to pay the game commission..  I'm having to consider a trip to Tejas and see what these Javalina'a are all about now...

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 15:44:24 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on the Enfields.  The rifle to which I am refering is the 2A/2A1.  These are the rifles that were arsenal rebarreled in the 1960's.  This is not one of the rechamber/redrill jobs.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 15:55:53 (ZULU)

Why dont we go metric?  Cause we dont want to...so there.  

Seriously, there was an effort made in the '70's but it fizzled.  True every now and then on my diesel slurping GMC I run into a frickin metric bolt, but thtas just better for the snap-on tool salesman.  Gotta own more frickin sockets!!  

And besides, my forefathers didnt leave England/Scotland just to start another one over here:-)  Thats why we eat with our fork in the correct hand, pack iron, listen to Ted Nugent, drink shitty beer...ummmm wait a minute...and burn fossil fuels like we own the oil fields!  

Yeah, we're A-fricken-mericans.  Dont try to figure us out.  We dont even follow our own rules.  

Good luck on the Euro...ya'll got suckered on that deal.  

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 16:03:09 (ZULU)

First, I see a lot of different scopes come through here at the school. We have had a lot of M-3 scopes here, and the shooters all seem to have the same complaint. They want to stay in the center of the "T" just like all good LE snipers do, and the 1 minute clicks always keep them just a little high or low. They don't want to do the hold off thing and I understand that. When you live under the law of liability, you would like to hit where your aiming.

I think as far as a military sniper scope, that you quarter the target that presents itself and want to make a hit, the M-3 is a great scope. (probably not much out there better) The law enforcement snipers want and need a finer adjustment for elevation. Everthing else that is good is 1/4 minute. I personally believe 1/2 minute on both elevation and windage would be great for LE. I also believe that 1/8 minute is too much the other way for cops.

Sorry Bill, I rate Shepard scopes right up there with "no alcohol" beer and mini-trucks. But, if your happy brother, drive on.  

Second point is more of a question.

I have had a number of S&B scopes here also, but mostly in the civilian classes. That makes sense I guess because of the cost. My question is, does S&B have options for thicker or heavier reticles. All the ones that I have seen here are thin and the shooters loose them fast during low light and night time/w artificial light shooting. For LE, I think this is a "biggy", because when are most call-outs?  Here in school, we always shoot stationarys and movers to 300 at night with some light assistance and the S&B shooters seem to have the problem way before the Leupold folks. The scopes I saw have mil-lines instead of dots, and they disappear fast in low light. Do they have another option besides an illuminated model?

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 16:42:24 (ZULU)

A thousand appoligies for the snow - we are sitting at a very balmy 8c (so around 47f'ish).  Kinda cutting into my skiing - but it make the shooting great.

Kevin of the Great White North <cantac@shaw.ca>
Canada - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 17:18:04 (ZULU)

  Just another option- IOR 2.5X10 MP8 Lighted reticle. They use hash marks instead of dots which will lay along the belly/back better for game & they have a very good lit reticle. Great optics & I believe the new ones have 1/2 MOA adjustments. Around 575.00-600.00 for the mentioned model.

  Anyone here experienced with TC Encores, shoot me an email- thinking about getting one for hunting use. Gonna have to save up now for that Premier conversion for my M1 Duplex...

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 17:43:50 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 17:57:44 (ZULU)

I completly understand the speed thing you are refering to for hunting, and I never argue with success. I guess I'm an "old dog" and have always felt comfortable with what has worked for me. I am most comfortable and havre always felt confident with a Remington 700, a Leupold scope and them being conected together with one of Marty's mounts. I know there are other things that work out there and also there are other applications besides LE sniping.

Remember, I hunt with a bow & black powder. That's how primitive I am. He He  

Kevin,

Thanks for the S&B site. hat answered my question.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 19:33:16 (ZULU)

RE: 1/2 moa scopes

A few years back I talked this over with Mike Miller and he was going to use his inside scoop to try to see what could be done. Apparently it fell upon deaf ears. I would assume that most companies don't want to take a chance on a small market niche.

FWIW- I agree- 1/2 min clicks would work very well for LE. I find the full min clicks too coarse for most of our shooting needs.

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 20:41:44 (ZULU)

Bruce-Like the mildot plate, can't someone do these in a less expensive format?  Is the bumpersticker available alone?

Gooch- any diesel with a Bosch injection system has the same situation.  Metrics for the injection system, SAE for just about everything else.  Have to carry 2 tool kits on my big truck-or an assortment of crescent wrenches!

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 20:44:17 (ZULU)

A better reticle would be either the No 4 (duplex without heavey upper) or the No1 (3 post) I use the Illuminated Mildot, and the reticle thickness is just perfect for shooting at moving targets, live targets or in darkness, it is slightly to thick for shooting miniscule groups at distances, as the reticle covers to much of the target, but if small groups at a distance is what your after then buy a target scope and not a sniper scope( I can still manage under 1" 5rds at 300m with it if I concentrate)I have no doubt that the bullets are hitting the POA but keeping the POA the same when the reticle covers it is dodgey, maybe i should make some new targets that are better to aim at.( was shooting at a white 1" diamond)on live targets its just the right reticle though, ive no problem keeping all my shots in the vitals of a roe deer(6" to 8") out to 600m as long as i get the wind right and the angle right, i won't shoot any further than that at game. The Illuminated reticle has a battery life of 100Hrs.

changing a reticle in a S&B costs $115 in a fixed power and 127$ in a variable, adding BDC's or target turrets costs $125 per turret.

That Canadian web site is mega expensive if the prices are in US $, which I suspect it is. But then a Leupold MK4 M3 10x40 costs $50 more then the most expensive PMII here. I like the 1cm at 100m(.358" at 100yds) clicks, they are easy to figure 1's and 10's are easier than fractions, and are a good compromise between quick adjustment and fine adjustment. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 20:55:35 (ZULU)

Okillie dokillie.  My question is, do I need one.  Now I'm no sniper or even a wannabe.  But, I do want to maximize my shooting.  I'm pretty much self taught (I've learned a poop-load from youse guys.  You guys got me all set up...PSS, Badger, Loopie and I thank you for it.) and I don't have the time or money to go to a shooting school (yet).  Basically how is a data book set up, and what kind of info is enetered into it and (forgive my ignorance) how will it help me become a better marksman?

Thanks again

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Shitty, Rainy Bal'mer, MD, - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 20:56:58 (ZULU)

Bolt Out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 21:17:28 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 22:19:45 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 22:19:49 (ZULU)

Wish I could offer these for $2.00 each, but I can't. The material is pricey.....has to be in big sheets to feed through the machine, has to be thick so the crosshair portion can withstand vibration and shock (potholes, for example), and the design results in a lot of scrap from the cut-out portions.

Please understand that I am NOT trying to sell these things. I had them made up for me and my friends, and I can't see (or afford) ordering thousands to bring the price down. Unless you folks order thousands, of course! Hence the "While supplies last" statement. It's pretty much a custom item, with a pretty limited "market."

If any of you want one but are put off by the cost, contact Ken via E-mail and ask his opinion. After I get the first batch out, ask 'lito or Wes how they like theirs. It's a personal decision and it won't hurt my feelings if you think it's too expensive.

Bumper stickers:

Same story, a custom item for friends.

I'm gonna get another run of them, and see what the pricing will work out to. Rest assured that it will be the lowest possible price, figuring cost, postage, and the pain-in-the-ass packaging and addressing of envelopes (recently lost my shipping and handling department). They don't fit in a standard envelope.

For now, if you want a sticker, send me a check for $2.50 ea. Again, while supplies last. Do me a favor, though....if you think you might want ten, order 'em all at once so I don't end up doing ten envelopes in 20 days to the same address!

Front plates for the Sheperd Reticle are on an "On Request" basis only, and a $6,000 non-refundable deposit is respectfully requested when the order is placed.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 23:19:35 (ZULU)

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 23:29:25 (ZULU)

-

Peter L... those prices are in Canadian $s... they are worth .65 cents of American dollars, so C$1,000 = USD$650

-

Mildot plates too expensive???  I've had short runs of parts made, and the set up, and custom material just kills you... take one piece (like a scope base) to a gun shop, and ask him how much to blue it, then get a price for 5,000 pieces.  Let me know how you make out!

-

Any of youz bums know anything about PCP airguns (like "you own one")... drop me a line, I'm already planing the replacement for the last one.  This will be "Son of Cat killer".

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 00:43:25 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 00:57:40 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 01:06:48 (ZULU)

On the Special Forces crest is inscribed in latin, "De Oppresso Liber," "From Oppression, Liberate", "To Free the Oppressed."

Stills from "Black Hawk Down", to be released 18 JAN 02.  In memory of MSG Tim Martin, former Team Sergeant ODA-116, 1st Bn, 1st SFGA.  KIA 3 October 1993, Mogadishu, Somalia:

http://www.cinemayhem.com/blackhawkdown/multimedia/production_stills_2.htm

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 01:09:12 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 01:40:28 (ZULU)

Guys,

Neither Leupold or US Optics are leading the development of a 1/2 MOA adjustment scope.  I have a Hensoldt 10x42 that I have had for 6 years that has 1/2 MOA adjustments.  I do think that this increment of adjustment is perfect for MOST types of shooting.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:00:45 (ZULU)

Allegheny Sniper Challenge

Ken H. -  Thank you for the email and the conversation regarding funding for Sniper Country.  

Due to information provided by Ken we will not be using any sort of placeholder for participation in this match as described in my earlier post.  

We are going to try to avoid conflicts with other matches.  Badlands and Hardrock both fall within the window we had been thinking about.  As of now, early May looks like it might be the best time.  We will continue to post additional info about the timing of the match as it becomes available.

Thanks to all of you that have expressed an interest so far.  We are proceeding full speed ahead.

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:09:58 (ZULU)

Several scopes have 1/2 moa click values.  USoptics has incorporated it into a BDC that will go from 100-1000+ yards (48 MOA) in one rotation of the turret, Leupolds M3 BDC's are 1 moa per click.  The fact that uso has been able to do this is what is unique.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:12:45 (ZULU)

What do you intend to do with this stick??  The LTR has a 20" tube, which will make it real difficult to get to 1K, the Stealth is damn near impossible to get(though they should have a run ready anytime now, as it was due last July), but it has a heavy strait taper (#6 I think) 26" barrel and mine easily shoots BH175's to 1000 yards more accurately than I can.

I also like the stock on the Stealth better than the PSS, but the LTR stock is pretty nice(albeit short) as the palm swell isn't like the PSS's Ive seen.

My vote goes to the Stealth, but I'm bias..  My 6.5 is being built on a Remington 700 action.  Advantage to the 700 is more premium parts available when you get tired of that POS factory tube and have it rebuilt.

You might wanna check this out also, http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro/intro.htm . It was written by a man of questionable character, but undoubtably knowledgable.... ;)))

So, whatcha gonna do with this stick???

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:23:10 (ZULU)

Catshooter:  Do you ever get the feeling that you're just talking to yourself?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:26:49 (ZULU)

I'm leaning heavily towards the Winchester ( a local shop has one for $568...a bit cheaper than the LTR I'm considering) although the light weight of the Remmy is very appealing.  I'm not really looking to get into benchrest, but I would like to get into some tactical competitions.  Which action is more durable and maintenance friendly?

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:40:01 (ZULU)

At that price I'd buy the Stealth quick, as that's dealers cost from a distributor.  I've carried mine in the woods, it sucks cause it's heavy, but not much more than a PSS.  The LTR would be easier in the woods, but if you get serious about shooting long range again, I think the 20" factory tube will be a mistake.  

As far as an action being more durable, I don't think you can go wrong either way, but the Winchester bolt can be field stripped in about 4 seconds with NO tools, or string, or any other damn thing, and it has a 3 position safety which is nice, as you can lock the bolt down and it would open unexpectidy as you root around in briars and sh*t, ya know the deal...

I would check the safety out before you buy it, and make sure that it moves easily from position to position about 20 times, and if that's good then I'd go with the Stealth..  But again, I'm bias, as mine shoots .6" groups all damn day using a 175SMK over 44.2 Varget with a WLR primer in a Win case.  This betters my Black Hills average by about .07", but for all practicle purposes, they're the same.

The only part I haven't seen for the stealth that is available for the 700 is the Badger Bottom metal, but the M70's floorplate is steel already, and you can buy a steel trigger guard from Winchester for $26 + shipping.

If ya don't buy it, there may be some Hawgs gettin' that dealers number from ya...

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:56:16 (ZULU)

florida <bohica999@hotmail.com>
Florida, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:59:38 (ZULU)

Or not.  Hell, I give up.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 03:06:41 (ZULU)

On the 1/2 moa elevation click adjustments for the M3. I know what you are saying feline killer, but how is it working out in practice? Does the scope actually move the 1/2 moa consistently or can/does it hang up?

Leupold only will state that their M3 scope has 1 moa elevation adjustments. Could this be a liability concern amongst them or ignorance? No flame here-seriously- I can really see a manufacturer not wanting to get into this for product liability reasons.

A serious concern (for me) is that, while wearing gloves (and at night) a click you see and can feel is reassuring.  

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 03:09:02 (ZULU)

The trigger is much easier to adjust on the Win. also.

I like em both but until I can get used to the Winnie, the PSS will be the mainstay when the aliens invade.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 03:13:40 (ZULU)

Brandon <bub220@hotmail.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 03:13:56 (ZULU)

It has a much better (match grade) barrel... a true match/sniper stock design (that was taking enemies out of palm trees in the South Pacific when the 700 wasn't even a wet dream at Rem)... the trigger is a piece of cake (and adjusting it won't void your warrentee!)... the ejection port is larger for loading rounds... the left lug slot is bigger, and won't let rounds get stuck in it (ask "Chainsaw" about that)... the magazine box can be lengthened so you can load longer rounds (up to 3.15")... the floor plate is steel, and a steel trigger guard is only about $35 from Brownells, compared to a few hundred for the Rem...

... did I mention that I like them ;))  I sold my two PSS's and I got three Win heavy Stealth types, and two CSS's, and I'll never look back!

I'm not against Rems... I have 7 of them, but they are all 40-X based guns, I wouldn't buy an "off the shelf" Rem anymore... (but I L-O-V-E their shotguns!), but for rifles in the 600 to 700 range, the Winchester is more betterer

-

FatBoy (do you got one as in Harley, or ARE you one ;)... I just started the Atkins, I gotta dump some poundage!).

What's this "... man of questionable character" stuff.  Anybody that knows me will tell you that there's NO question about that ;) HA!

The next chapter may be done next week...

-

CDC... yup, and I answer myself too.  That way I don't get pissed off (well, sometimes I get into arguments with myself, but nothing important ;).

OK, guys, you gotta do some growin' up here.

Mike T... do you own an M3??? or are you just "Catalogue racing"???  I listen to kids argue about which Porche is fastest, and they are 13 years old!!

I mean JEEZ, LOUISE... use this godamn stuff before you debate it... go to the top of the page, and read "The rules of Engagement", especially about opinions on stuff you don't own, and just read about.  A lot of this stuff will do far more than the catalogue says, and sometimes a lot less, but you are NOT in the position to debate it, unless you own, and USE it!!

All those that think you have to use equipment in the easiest way, your in the wrong end of shooting.  One of the world's most famous sniper scopes has only 10 clicks for the whole range to 1000 yds... a click at each 100... when you are in a dark hole lookin' out, you can't see the numbers.  So the enemy is at 600yds, you just count up from one to six.  What the hell do you think the snipers did that used this scope if the target was at 550... not shoot, cuz there wasn't a click there that "gave him permission" to set the turret halfway between 5 and 6 ??? You think they yelled "Hey, could you move up 50 yds, cuz I don't have a click to shoot you with"???

Common guys, don't get stuck in a "catalogue rut" of "Jeez, it isn't labled to do that, so I can't use it!"... both M3's will easily set at 1/2 moa between notches on the turret (that's 2.5" error at 1000 yds AT MOST!).  Can you do better than that???

Also, consider... with 1 moa clicks, it's easy to count your way up the range scale... but double that, and count 95 clicks, without making a mistake... I double dare you to do it, in a hide, under pressure!

And if you don't think an M3 can be accurate, I got a 3.5" computer disk hangin' over my desk that has a group of 30 cal holes in it, all touching, dead bang in the middle of it, shot at 405 yards with a leupold M3-LR scope (witnessed by a Rosterfarian)... that says you are wrong!!

Common and ease up on this "You can't..." stuff.  It just defeats you before you start.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 03:19:05 (ZULU)

How'd that A4 stock turn out?? What kind of pad did you end up with??

'Lito,

I'd be the second one.  Believe it or not, slim fast had my 6'2" ass down to 225lbs, but I stopped usin' it and I'm back to 245.  Don't figure I'll ever see 210 again, but who knows.. maybe I'll get motivated....  I would love to have a FatBoy though, and that's kinda were I took the handle from, as it's what I want and what I am, kinda fits that way...

I've been meaning to ask you, what is the whole Two Shoes thing about, and I don't mean Terry.  I mean the original... ;)))

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 03:23:03 (ZULU)

     I did own (and use) a M3 (both LR and Mark 4 versions) and I was not happy with the adjustments. I did not(and still do not) find the "between clicks" method described to be easily discernable. In effect-between clicks felt "mushy" and not precise-but, in all honesty-I never checked on that to see if it tracked the 1/2 moa truely. Whether it needed to be precisely centered etc....That is what I asked about. I did not expect a diatribe railing against a simple question.

     I do currently use an M1 LR and a NXS with 1/4 moa clicks and I am satisfied with a positive stop that I feel and hear. For someone in my position, it is one less thing to worry about when lining up on a target after many hours and I am cold, tired, etc...

    So being that I did use these items for some time, am of legal age, don't own a Porche, even though I do own a Leupold (and other) catalogs, I do thank you for your concern for my credentials.

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 04:00:53 (ZULU)

Mike... that was't a diatribe against you... this 1/2 minute thing is a dead horse that just won't die... and fueled buy guys that haven't tried it...  and about what you "can't" do with a given piece of equipment buy using a little effort.

.. and there is no reason that setting a dial netween clicks would not be accurate... it's just a threaded shaft that moves an optical cell... if it had that much backlash, you wouldn't be able to zero it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 04:29:45 (ZULU)

One scope for target shooting or tactical shooting.  DOgs and cats living together, world peace and a chicken in every pot.

Duh.....

Col Dave.  Can't add to what you said 'cept to say that those are just the guys we know about.  How many have died without a headline or have never come home cause they were somewhere that we weren't supposed to be?   They do it for the big bucks right?

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 06:04:33 (ZULU)

There are 2 screws on it and I wanna know how to adjust them!!

E-mail me or tell it by the roster.

Paul Schouten Trautig <paul@longrangeshooting.com>
Wijchen, Gld, Holland - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 10:49:21 (ZULU)

Geez all this talk about tactical mildot scopes!! And just think 5 or 6 years ago if you weren't LE or military you were lucky if could even buy one from the limited manufacturers.

S&B makes the clearest leneses for the price I've ever used.

USO makes the toughest scope I've come across.   You could mount it on a canon and it keeps on ticking.  Gooch I do believe they make the USMC style turrets.  Undude could verify that.

Can't wait to try the new Ziess mildot scopes even though there only 1 inch tubes.

The Special Forces Association hosts an SF memorial where you can express condolences to the families of our comrades.   www.quietpros.com  

De Oppresso Liber

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 13:16:12 (ZULU)

Gooch - for all us us afraid to ask-and who weren't in the Marines- can you point us to a photo of the Unertl fine tune dial system?

Is it proprietary?

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 13:33:00 (ZULU)

Rod how long will it be and is the first week in May an almost positive? And will it be a weekend thing as in first weekend in May? Also where exactly is it going to be held at so I can find it on the map and see how long a drive it is? Maybe I can carpool with  Lito if he's going. The reason I ask about the dates and days is that I have to put in for my whole years leave at work in January before the 19th(gotta love the federal government huh) and if it's possible I would like to make it to the shoot. Thanks.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 13:55:17 (ZULU)

-

Rod...  I'm with Rob-01 on setting a date early.  A lot of us guys have limits or problems with taking off on short notice, so the sooner you set the date, the more guys that can start setting aside vacation time.  I vote for the 2nd or 4th weekends in May (the 1st, and 3rd mean battling the EX!), but I'll go with what you guys decide... just decide soon for us guys that have schedualing problems.

-

Chris... I had a Harley FSR for 3 weeks when the divorce papers came :((... it was one of the many victims of the divorce court system.  I used to race BSA "Gold Star"s, and Norton "Manx"s when I was young and stupid... I ain't young anymore :(((

-

Rob... we can probably drive together, unless the Rooshan is coming.  We can work that out later, when we know what the dates are.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 14:30:52 (ZULU)

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 15:07:55 (ZULU)

 I have two of the LRs with the MOA adjustments, one on a 308 and one on a 260 and both will put a round in a 1" dot at 100yds. I don't see why a student couldn't keep a round in the "T zone" at that range or even 200yds.

 I may have to aim at the bottom of the dot or the top but your not exactly taking your cross hairs off of the target. I shoot at "Know your Limit" targets at 100 and 200yds for practice and usually have no trouble shooting out the eye at 100yds.

 I know what your talking about though and I think these scopes get a bad rap by people who just don't use them enough or like lito' says they just don't think it can be done and won't try it.

Rich..

 You don't have to be a pro trained shooter to keep a log book. I am self tought and I kept one for a long time before I ever seen a real log book. Unless you have a photographic memory they are very handy.

 I started off recording come ups for different ranges, then wind dials and wind calls. Then thought it might be nice to record if it was sunny or cloudy when I found out that made a difference. Then what range your at or elevation if you move around. All the info helps to make you a better shooter.

 You don't need a formal book, although they are nice, but you do need to keep track of what your doing and it will help you become a better shooter. Does your gun always shoot a CBS in the exact same spot clean and dirty?? If you have a log book you will know. Good Luck!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 15:18:50 (ZULU)

Just sold my Springer.  Sucked.  What is an FSR ?  Did you miss the X key and hit the S ?

Later, homeboy

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 15:24:46 (ZULU)

Thanks,

drmarc

PS, Are there any boolit aerodynamic professors out there, could you use a student? Catscratcher has dropped me from his class!!!!!

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 16:40:23 (ZULU)

-

drmark... you ain't been dropped from the class, the professor is suffering alligatorits again... life is on my case!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 17:06:32 (ZULU)

I patiently wait.

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 17:37:11 (ZULU)

Re: The painting of the Marine sniper in Somalia that I believe you mentioned you are using as wallpaper.  What is that small flat topped object protruding above the front scope ring?  Possibily a rail system of some sort?

Re "cams":  Are you testing some new loopy "cams" for the VX-III 3.5-10 M3 LR?  If so, how or will they affect the data you previously put out?

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 18:54:44 (ZULU)

The second part of this and I hate to tell Paul he is right but he is, its a common practice on Leupold LR M3, MK4 and M40A Scopes to set half way between clicks for 1/2moa.  I do it all the time. Thats the way Goochs old USMC does it But for LE work I dont see the 1/2moa widna dn 1moa elevation beinga problem.

Gooch US Optics made a few scopes to my specs with Unertal M40A1 adjustments on a modern scope. I have a 10x and a varible 1.8-10x44 with the knobs.  The USMC has tested the 1.8-10x44 and word is they love it. Its in the running for the contract for new scopes.  The scopes currentlu have up to 3moa up or down from the BDC range and up to 8moa wind each way, in 1/2moa clicks.  USMC has asked for more windage and elevation adjustment and that is being worked on as we speak.  This will be a great scope for 308 118LR shooters.

One of the current efforts is being placed into, what I think will be the answer for all around shooting and thats the 3.2-17x44 with 1/2moa clicks and 48moa per turn.  That way you can have BDC for any caliber and be good to go to 1000 plus yards in one turn.

They also have an external adjustment scope out that offers hundred of MOA of travel but thats for extreme range work and not for a live in the mud guy like 8541's

Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 19:02:04 (ZULU)

The flat thing on the front ring is a fitting for a night vision adaptor device called a "Simrad".

The new cams... Yes, they are for the M3-LR, and they will correct the errors and bad data that has existed in the past, and will add new cams to the line... metric cams where there were none, and for new military loads.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 19:14:12 (ZULU)

Get the Win Stealth. I bought a HBV 4 yrs ago (Stealth's predcessor) & left it 100% as is. Last year I bought a Stealth 22-250 & had George Gardner make it a sweet 308. Oh yah, between a Win & Rem, get the Win.

CDC's comments-

Concerning those 1/2 min elevation adjustments on a M3 they work like a charm. Used the stated technique all last year at various schools & comps with great success.

Question-

Will a 40X drop into a stock made for a 700, or are thost 2 actions distintly different?

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
akron, ohio, usa - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 19:39:12 (ZULU)

What did you say here?

"...But for LE work I dont see the 1/2moa widna dn 1moa elevation beinga problem."

I do not understand what you say. My internal spellcheck failed me Ginsu-boy!

Take care-Mike T

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 19:49:12 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/interrogatory010702.shtml

danny mull:  I learned that trick from Paul.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 19:58:32 (ZULU)

 Okay hawgs.. we need at least 48 of youn'z to go out and do yer duty in your respective states....

Click on my name or go to: http://www.snipercountry.com/mildotplates

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 21:10:26 (ZULU)

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 21:41:20 (ZULU)

CDC, i said a while back, that a nation should not be lead by a person who has not lead men at arms (with the exception of Maggy Thatcher) these shit bird politicians don't give a shit about the guys on the ground, and that is across the board, from cops to soldiers to nurses to firemen, I have big hopes for your current president, I hope for you all that he stems the tide and sets an example of leadership that a nation can be proud off, I am sorry to say that the example of leadership set by my own government and that of the country that I choose as my current home, leave much to be desired, when cops have to buy their own flack jackets or do with out because Father state spent all the money on some statue or nice modern art, building or politicians retirement fund, then it makes you wonder. I spent 10 years serving in the Brit military, taking all the shit they could throw, i thoroughly enjoyed half of it, but for the last 4 years after I had seen the way the wind blows, I was there for me, my mates and my family, and not for some mis placed patriotism and belief in a government that didn't give a damn. its often said pity the man who knoweth nothing worth dieing for, well I can think of plenty I'd stick my life on the line for,but the government of my country, the freedoms and social and legal system it represents just don't make the list any more, I hope that one day things will be different, we need another Churchill.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, January 7, 2002, at 21:53:28 (ZULU)

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, January 7, 2002, at 22:52:24 (ZULU)

Those Sh!t and Bendover (just kidding) scopes are nice.  I would love to have one.  With adjustments of ~1/3 MOA and ~51 MOA in one revolution, it gives a lot of versatility and convenience.  However, those things are expensive [over here].  My wife tells me that I am a cheap bastard and that I would squeeze a nickel till the buffalo sh!ts.  I guess she is probably right.  This said, I will probably never have one....well....maybe someday.

Semper Fi all

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 00:30:21 (ZULU)

Danny Mull... 40-X in a 700 stock... it's Plug & Play!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 00:33:51 (ZULU)

I probably could have made up my mind a whole lot sooner if somebody had explained from the start about setting the M3 between clicks. I had to go back and find 'lito's one-liner about this to know what CDC was talking about.

Looks like the M3 will work nicely for me as I don't need to shoot the balls off a prairie dog. In the field it seems 1/4 clicks would be too easy to screw up and would take up way too much time; I would probably just revert back to the hold-over method. Of course now, thanks to 'lito, I'm going to have to wait until Leupold comes out with their improved M3.

Mike M.,

That 3.2-17x44 US Optics sounds fantastic but don't those cost like $2000? That's more then my gun, stock, and Jewell trigger combined!  

Chris, Good memory! I haven't got around to the recoil pad for the A4 stock yet. UBL put a dent in my free time. I'll pickup a pachymer. I'm just going to install the pad myself. Plan is to epoxy the pad to the stock. Put some tape on the stock for protection. Then sand down the pad until it's flush with the stock. Any tips? Actually, I'm more concerned about getting the sling studs in right.

Whoever mentioned longrangehunting.com: Yes, I've read everything there and learned a lot. That guy is incredible. I have no doubt he can take game out past 1000 meters. I've heard too many guys bragging about taking game at extreme ranges, but that's the first guy I actually believe. It's hard to call what he does hunting though, as he never gets farther then 15 feet from his truck. Of course, it would be kinda of hard to walk around with a 50 lb rifle sporting a 40 inch barrel (not to mention a shooting bench and optical rangefinder).

dk

florida <bohica999@hotmail.com>
Florida, - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 00:39:15 (ZULU)

Too bad with the recoil pad, but it looks like you're on the right track as far as mounting it.  Pete L has done a few pad installs I think, and he may be able to give you some advice on how to do it.  I here ya on the 15' from the truck but I've got to admit, if I could take game off my deck, or shoot at any distance from my porch, you can bet I'd do it.  Drive time to the range is the biggest drawback for me, as the closest is 1.5 hours away. Some people are just lucky, and have facilies and target rich enviroments close.  

Take our own lucky Parton, 'Lito for example..

He has an old lady that comes by and mows his grass,which really amounts to clearing shooting lanes. (though she could be a PETA sapper, or a "fatlady" allie that's removing freshly pruned cat nip and leaving the dreaded dogpile mines), a Fat lady next door who's allowed him a target rich enviroment(as she obviously hasn't been able to keep count of the paint thinner wielding, tractor wrecking banditos to date).  I've herd he has timed game feeders that kick out mass amount of friskies several times a day, but I don't believe even he would hunt over a freshly emptied can of tuna.  Then again, I could be wrong (((;

'Lito,

I've been searching the net, trying to find info on the Wild Optical range finders...  You know of a good source for general information???

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 01:20:50 (ZULU)

Thanks for the post. I want to take a couple of classes this year but vacation time is highly valued, rare.

I have read a post for a cool screen saver, anybody have a net address for it. Thanks

Ryan

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 02:20:19 (ZULU)

I sent an e-mail to the hepkat address.  Is this still active or is the TDS account the only one?

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 02:32:46 (ZULU)

Dk Florida... don't wait to get the M3-LR scope... it's only the cams that are being changed, and it will be a while 'til they get into the system... big companies are slow (and careful), and they will have to check my stuff.

-

Chris...

For the optical rangefinder, go here:

http://www.Deutscheoptik.com/

Then click on rangefinders.

They were $1,000 when I got mine a few years ago, but I guess it's a limited market (how many guys REALLY shoot at long distances?), so the $500 is a steal!

I never saw the lady that did my yard and driveway again... it's really a strange story.

"...hunt over a freshly emptied can of tuna.".  Naw, I wouldn't do that!  I would leave some tuna in it, so they could die on a full tummy (HA!)... but more betterer, I may try white mice from the pet store, and stake them out on 2 feet of string ;) (Double HA!)

-

I called Harley today to get a new catalogue, and ask why they haven't been sending me any mail, cuz I'm a stock holder in "The Motor Company"... and the nice man says that they lost track of me (my EX's fault), since the last time I spoke to them, there have been several splits, and my stock is worth 8 times what I paid for it...

... "dot.coms" my ass... I'll invest in a company that has it's full year of production completely sold... the year before it's even made... ANYTIME!.

-

I've been looking at the new breed of air riffles to replace the last RWS-75 (a whimp!)... man, have these puppies have come a long way in the last 10 years... I've pretty much decided on a Webley Venom Viper... uses 3000 psi of air, and comes with a silencer already fitted to the barrel... it will group 0.15" at 30 feet, and has the power of a .22 short... wheew!

Now I have to decide which local bank to rob :((  About $1,000 with all the kit, and no scope :((

-

Is bowling cheaper??

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 02:32:56 (ZULU)

The old optics definitely work, but I would rather pick up a used military laser rangefinder or just use a commercial unit.

florida <bohica999@hotmail.com>
Florida, - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 02:36:45 (ZULU)

Back on line. Had a serious virus that had to be taken care of...all is well. One exception is that I am running Outlook now instead of Eudora. All in all, I like it better. Time will tell.

Just a reminder. My posts my be short and choppy for awhile. I go in for carpal tunnel surgery tomorrow and will be a "southpaw" for 3-6 weeks while I heal. Major bummer, but it's got to be taken care of...can't hardly carry a rifle like it is and that's a problem!

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 03:00:19 (ZULU)

This old 8541 has been selected to help write the sniper program for the Alabama State Police Academy.  

And now for your entertainment......

Subject: Police Warning

Police Warn of Male Date Rape Drug

CHICAGO, Dec. 5...(URP) - City Police authorities are warning all male clubbers, partygoers and unsuspecting pub regulars to keep alert and stay cautious when offered a drink from any woman.

A new date rape drug on the market called "beer" is being used by females to target unsuspecting men. The drug is generally found in liquid form, and is now available almost anywhere. "Beer" is used by female sexual predators at parties and bars to persuade their male victims to go home and have sex with them.

Typically, a woman needs only to persuade a guy to consume a few units of "beer" and then simply ask him home for no-strings-attached sex.

Men are rendered helpless against this approach: After several "beers" men will often succumb to desires to perform sexual acts on horrific looking women to whom they would never normally be attracted.

Men often awaken after being given "beer" with only hazy memories of exactly what has happened to them the night before, just a vague feeling that something bad occurred. At other times these unfortunate men are stung for their life's worth in a familiar scam known as "a relationship."

Apparently men are easier victims for this scam after "beer" is administered and have previously been sexually approached. Authorities ask that you forward this warning to every male you know. However, if you fall victim to this insidious "beer" and the predatory women administering it, there are male support groups with venues in every town where you can discuss the details of your shocking encounter in an open and frank manner with similarly affected, like-minded men.

For the nearest such support group near you, just look up "Shooting Ranges" in the Yellow Pages.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 03:02:43 (ZULU)

On the military surplus range finders...  When I was stationed in Berlin in the early 90's you could buy anything the Russians had for nothing, and I mean nothing....  Had I some forthought, and gave a crap about shooting at the time, I would have loaded up.  The same active laser range finders your seeing go for $2999 now were 300DM at the flea market at the TeirGarden bahnhof.  (If you've been to Berlin, you know that huge ass market).  We used to buy all sorts of stuff off these guys, and if got even cheaper when the tanks fired on the parliment and they cut 400,000 soldiers loose around Berlin with no Money and no hope for a paycheck... We had guys buying their jeeps right out of their motorpool.  Wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of them now, but I'll stick with a $499 unit that requires no batteries over one thats 6 times as much and if it goes tits up I'm SOL...

A Harley will have to wait, as I can't stomach a car payment anymore, so a bike payment is pretty much out of the question.  If I had my choice, I'd rebuild either a 1942 Indian 442 or a 52 Harly panhead. but these are pipe dreams right now... I've got a better chance of shooting a perfect score at Perry than gettin' either one of these.

'Lito,

You lookin' for places to hide them stock certificates ;)))  

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 03:28:46 (ZULU)

If anybody is heading down this way give me a yell. E-mail is usually best. It would be great to finally put some faces to names.

Watch out for the other guy,

Chase

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 03:32:01 (ZULU)

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 03:46:34 (ZULU)

Gooch, never said it was for every caliber but works pretty darn good for the 308 175's at 2670fps.  If you are shooting that its great.  If you have a Magnum,Fag type or otherwise not the set up for you.  If you have the 175's at between 2650 and 2700 you have all the adjustment for condition changes you will need with 3 up or down. We shot a Rock with 22" bbl all the way out to 800 yards, in NM and did not have to go up or down to hit dead center with (7000 elevation 2600fps) Come ups are closer on the ST10 than the Old M40A1 scope.  Same knob but where it sits on the errector tube has less total adjustment than the old scope (about 34.5 moa from 100 yards)

Mike T.  What I said was in bad type, was, I dont feel 1moa up or down is that big a deal for LE.  It works.  I prefer 1/2moa but 1moa is fine.  The more I shoot the less I worry about little bits of adjustment.

I put on a scope US Optics sent me, zerod it and shot with it from 200 to 1000 yards yesterday.  I took the stupid total number of clicks knob off and subsituted one marked in moa from my 1/4moa scope.  It was a customer trade in scope and I got it for a song.  Stupid me never asked what the adjustments were.  It had a 2moa reticle setup and is seventeen power. Great glass so I mounted zerod and went to shoot a match. It was cold and my data was for higher elevation and higher temps.  As I got farther and farther back I noticed my 338 Ultra was taking far more elevation adjustment than it should.  I was low all the way out.  Then it dawned on me, the adjustments were finer than 1/4moa.  Started doing the math and figured either 1/5 or 1/6th moa.  Too late as my score was not good enough.  Got home did the math and taking the good old Sierra Program I was able to see it was 1/6th MOA.  Called US Optics did not say a word and asked what the adjustments were.  "1/6" moa was the response./  "The guy spec'd 1/6 elevation and 1/4moa windage. He wanted a 2moa reticle didn't you know?"  Egg on my face I asked if it could be changed to 1/4 and was told yes.  The scope will be sent down right away. No way I can think quickly in 1/6 moa and too many darn clicks.

The rifle continues to shoot very well. 1/2moa all day seems no problem for this but be warned the rifle weighs less than my 26" 308 and throws a 300 grain bullet at 2800 fps and your shoulder the other.  Thank God for that Tactical Muzzle Break.  This Break does not throw up much debris.  The guys on either side of me could not believe it was a 338 Ultra.  They had 300 wins that kicked up twice the dust. Anyone looking for a great Break System should call Jerry about this one.

Peter I look forward to seeing one of the SxB 10x42 side parallex adjustment scopes.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 08:06:33 (ZULU)

Posted yesterday a question for my Timney trigger, now I have the following:

Witch type of Pict. rail is the best I can use on a Sako TRG 22?

And of course with BO rings on the rail......

Paul <paul@longrangeshooting.com>
Vianen, Ut, Holland - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 10:10:02 (ZULU)

FSK last week joined US Special Forces and British SAS/SBS in the hunt for Bin Laden. This has been confermed today by the minister of defence.

FSK was the first groundunit to enter Kosovo in the last allied operation.

Here are some pictures: http://www.hkpro.com/hkactionnorsk.htm

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 11:12:10 (ZULU)

You know as well as I do that as soon as you zero a Unertl you start having to use fine tune as things in the  enviro change.  Its a good infantry scope.  I just would like to see the grunts have a scope that would be adaptable to more missions.  ONe with side parallax adjustments, variable power, finer el/wind adjustments etc.  

Out of  here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 13:13:56 (ZULU)

WES:  Hope the hand gets better.  You know that CarPoleTunnel syndrome is what killed Princess Di.  Seriously, my little brother is a carpenter.  Tough little guy and a working SOB.  Swinging that claw hammer has caught up with him and he suffers from it.  The boy wants to be a fireman so bad he can taste it.  Hope it don't slow him down. Get well homeboy. 15 years of marriage has kept me from getting it.

Well guys, my 12 year old came to me at Christmas and told me he wants to be a Cop.  Oh boy.  Flattered, humbled, but . . . I told him I'd support whatever he decided and help him any way I could. Once they get THAT idea in their head though, look out. Whewwwww.  

Later fellas,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 13:59:59 (ZULU)

As usual, the Marines are getting it done with marginal gear, because they are skilled and dedicated.  This leads the higher ups to think nothing is wrong, because the job is getting done.  Never mind that all the people doing the job are telling them what's needed.  "The job gets done, so everything must be OK, the troops are just bitching, cause that's what troops do."  Well, the reality is this:  the job gets done because good people break themselves doing it.  Then they see that no one who is important cares, and then they leave.  I have had several really good people flee for the SOCOM world because they have the money, the missions, and most importantly the mindset.  Every time I get someone who's good, they leave.  Hell, I'm considering it myself.  OK, enough sniveling.

A good variable scope, 3.5-10 or 4-12 or whatever.  40mm obj, 30mm tube, TOUGH, side paralax, 1/2 or full MOA clicks,BDC, mildots, 7075-T6 or better Aluminum construction(I hate rust!!), TOUGH,  45MOA or so in one turn on elevation, seals that resist paint solvents, everything sealed, and parts coated with something that resists RUST(if they must be made out of steel).  TOUGH.

More importantly we need the procurement wienies to stock AT LEAST two scopes per rifle, so that when(not if) your scope gets damaged you're not sitting around useless.  Plus nightvision(AN\PVS-10, Raptor 6x, thermal, whatever, as long as it works).  Just have enough on hand(not sitting in Barstow or Albany or Q-town) so that they can be replaced when they go Tango Uniform.  This is expensive in civilian terms, but in military terms it's a drop in the bucket.  Stop the purchase of one V-22 Albatross, and you can buy all this gear for every sniper platoon in the Marine Corps.  They expect us to do all this HSLD stuff, time to ante up.  Or else, be honest, tell us we're cannon fodder, so we can go elsewhere.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M        

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 15:36:20 (ZULU)

Wes: My brother n law just had the carrpal tunnel surgery on each of his hands. He went from total agony and numbness before surgery to a painfree and fully functional existance now. I am sure you will heal quickly.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 16:22:44 (ZULU)

Same password.

If you need somfin' guys, that's the new one.  Excite sucks.

Brian

brian k sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 16:44:24 (ZULU)

Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@bellsouth.com>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 16:50:08 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$IR3BRZYAAAO05QFIQMGCFFOAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/08/wafg108.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/08/ixnewstop.html

Several thousand young Middle Eastern men have been ordered deported and have disappeared.  We're infested with the parasites.

HEADS UP.  CONDITION YELLOW. NO BULLSHIT.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11180-2002Jan7.html

Loud, spectacular mop up ops.  This is pretty good.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11270-2002Jan7.html

We are holding a lot of prisoners.  If we do this right - and we probably will - we can use the intel gathered from these prisoners and from searches to understand the terrorist networks.  "The Evil Dead" will disappear or turn up truly dead.

Note:  "The Evil Dead" is being used in lieu of "OPFOR" or "The Enemy".  It came to me in a dream.

Captain's report on the Arab-American SS agent who was thrown off American Airlines' flight.  If this is anything close to being accurate, his ass should have been bounced without a backward glance.  Why is a Federal Agent throwing this infantile hissy-fit?  This guy is supposed to see the world with the eyes of a grown-up.

http://www.nationalreview.com/document/document010802.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 17:09:04 (ZULU)

Kne, the US Optics I have talked about also comes in a 1.8-10x44.  I have been working on them to have a 40mm objective to get the scope closer to bore line and that may happen in a few months.  They are also going to get more adjustment than 8moa right/left and 3moa up/down.

Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 18:10:01 (ZULU)

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 18:34:31 (ZULU)

Mike M, thnx for the reply bout the sling, i understand, nice doin buiseness with you.

Nicholas, been using VithaVuori N550, and i like it a lot, it is very consistent.

But been told that because of higher pressures it will shorten barrel life significantly, and must admit i did not see any difference with N140 and N150, the 2 powders i have been using for years.

In fact, never had any other brand than Vitha in my ammo, because it is the main type sold overhere, would like to get my own hands on some Varget too, cause all the Rosterfarians seam to swear by it.

But imho, go with N150 and N160 for larger like 30-06.

L8r,

Marco.

PS Pete, ill mail you the answers about the german custom guy, quite a pro, but not the one for me, not a tactical guy, but real quality work tho.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 20:15:30 (ZULU)

  I have used the VV-550 and it shot ok but in the 308s I have found that they seem to like the N-140 the best. I had one that shot N-140 into .2s and .3s but my other one wouldn't shoot the same load in much better than .7s and .8s. This was with the 168MKs.

  The same rifles would shoot the 550 around .5s to .6s on average. I stayed with Varget for all of my competative shooting because of the temp stability. The Varget was faster than any of the VV powders and would shoot a solid .5MOA all the way out, hard to beat Varget.

  The 500 series is usually close to 50 to 100fps faster than what the 100 series powders are though. It will just depend on your rifle how well it will shoot it, there like women, all a little bit different.

Ken..

  You bring up some really good points, seems like things never change. Its like Peter said this morning you stay and fight for the people your with not for the country or the political BS. When the good guys move on theres not a lot left to hold you there. Good luck and hope things change, we don't want to loose good men like you.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 20:28:27 (ZULU)

CDC, All them running on expired visas, hell if they weren't guilty, they wouldn't be running.  As for "racial profiling", just how do we look for radical muslim extremists if we don't look at our muslims here illegally to start with?  Sure there's lots of others here illegaly too and we should look for them too, but hell, they're not trying to blow us up!

Take care all,

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
Dela Where?, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 20:30:15 (ZULU)

Thanks,

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 20:34:47 (ZULU)

The 22nd edition of Blue Book shows $500 for a 100% and $450 for a 98%.  A total of 9,077 mfg. 1984-86.

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 21:20:45 (ZULU)

I think I will try CCI BR-2 primers, with BlackHills brass.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 21:43:57 (ZULU)

I will run a German Army Reserve Winter FTX on the weekend.

Pete the dutchies will be around, what about you ?

Some night patroling, G-36 and MG 3 and Uzi, blanks, trip flares, bivi, fire, and general bullshitting and a beer or two once the weapons are clean and squared away on saturday evening.

sound off

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
g-3land - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 22:02:22 (ZULU)

Back Home after surgery. Was in at 0600 and out by 0945. Now the mending begins...still a bit groggy.

This one handed typing really sucks goggles.

Semper Fi,

Wes

(The one handed)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 22:04:46 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 22:24:13 (ZULU)

Thanks for the invite.  Think I'll leave the KABAR at home and bring my Glock 21.  Never did like the idea of bringing a knife to a gunfight.  ;o)

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 23:53:49 (ZULU)

AB

Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Ark., U.S. of (Smile when you say it) A - Tuesday, January 8, 2002, at 23:53:52 (ZULU)

Any of you shooting the Remmie 700 LTR in .308? If so, what is your opinion of the platform?

Do you know the muzzle diameter? Twist Rate?

Have a project in mind and that might make a good starting point.

Thanks,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 02:34:59 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 02:45:32 (ZULU)

Several members of my club are using the 7 mm Ackley Improved for their 1000 yard rifles.  They are using the 180 gr VLD Berger.  One guy has won several matches with this set-up.  There are 7 mm users out there.

Jerry

Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 03:09:19 (ZULU)

The twist rate for the LTR is 1 in 12".

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 03:34:01 (ZULU)

We are supposed to get the USO scopes here in a bit, as soon as I get the army off it's butt and will get a test of these scopes.  I like the less then One revolution and .5 moa clicks.  Anything less then that is a waste for tactical work.  Still can't convince me that most shooters can see the bullet change of one click when it moves the bullet less then the diameter of the bullet at 100.  Of course I really don't have that much experience at this game. :-)

Problem with scopes that only have yard line or meter line clicks is that they only work for one caliber.  If you have to use the scope on multiple weapons then you need a bunch of scopes that do not interchange.  I like to keep my options open for breakage.  Pulling a collar off one scope is easier then figuring the range difference when the elevation, temp, baro pressure, etc chnages and so does the round.  Remember that if it will break it will do so at the worse possible moment.

Well enough for tonight, will go hide in the corner and see if some of my paper work shows back up on my desk.  Seems to be disappearing at an alarming rate.  Hope that the guys getting them are using it properly.

Hold Hard Guys

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 03:55:56 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 03:56:53 (ZULU)

http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3LK5Y58WC&live=true&tagid=IXLYK5HZ8CC

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 04:55:32 (ZULU)

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 05:15:04 (ZULU)

Kevin of the GWN <cantac@shaw.ca>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 05:34:47 (ZULU)

I have a line on an early 40X in .22 RF single shot with match sights.  Guy's wanting 800... What do ya'll think?

'Lito-  Reckon when Loopy will have those "'Lito-san New and Improved" M3 cams available?  It's about time...

Gooch-  the "beer" thing should be immortalized in stone!!! LMAO!

As a LE sniper, I have never felt at a disadvantage with the M3 and 1 MOA adj. and mil-dots.  But then, I am the only one that EVER shoots past 200...  Using the 30-06 and/or 308 YARD cam (yes, I know it's supposed to be for the 168 rnd) and 175 MK ammo, only when I get past 500 do I begin hitting off the cam marks. At 600-800 I begin hitting high, so I have to adjust by subtracting cks. Then at 900 and 1K I have to add 2 ck each.  Not your typical LE senario...  Most of the team doesn't believe that you can SEE a target at 1K much less hit one. HE HE HE!

my 2 cents,

John the Baptist

John in MS <jrr051468@aol.com>
Land of the crazy hillbilly..., - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 05:51:46 (ZULU)

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 10:14:52 (ZULU)

I don't know when the new cams will hit the street.  This has been a long process with Lupita.  They sent me a bunch of new cams a few months ago, and they had errors in most of them, plus there are apparent errors coming from another source at the plant.  I sent them several pages of corrections on Monday morning, plus some comments on how they're made... haven't heard back (I think I'm on their Poopoo list! HA!).  I will dribble out what I can, when I can.  Do keep in mind that this is a tough position for them... this is a very expensive line of scopes, and these cam thingies are something that is not an area of their expertese... they never did the original calculations... and over the years, different people took over that department (a.k.a "chore", and most not caring about cams), and the errors became entrenched in stone.  Making major corrections to a military product that has been in the catalogue for a long time it "tough"... I give them a lotta credit for listening to me in the first year of this journey of the last three years.

Why are you using the 308 Yards cam with the 175's... use the 30-06 cam, with the 175's at around 2675-2700 and you will fair much better... a lot of the "Metric Challenged" guys on this site are using the '06 cam for yards, and it tracks all the way out.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 11:47:14 (ZULU)

The bottom line is know and practice with your equipment.    

Now lets see...  

Most competitions or target engagements (99%) I would say are in the 100 - 700 yd range.   USO 1/4 MOA turrets provide 12MOA per revolution, a MK4 M1 has 14 or 15MOA per revolution.  308, 300wm, 6.5-06, etc would use what between 10-15 MOA to reach 6-700yds give or take a little depending on caliber (a full turn give or take a little).  If I mill or shim my base to leave minus 4 - 5 MOA before zero I can crank to the bottom and with a flick of the wrist return to zero. At zero (100 yds.) crank up 3-4 MOA (3-4 large tick marks or count to 12 and I'm at 300 yds dead center (a quarter turn)). Now another 5-6 MOA up and I'm in the 5-550 range, maybe back to zero maybe up for further engagements.  Ok out to lets say 800 - 1000yds. now I have to go beyond my full turn.  Not really a problem to crank to zero and make a full turn to come up to 12 MOA and work from there.  (21MOA for the 300wm to reach a 1000, 24 for the 6.5, maybe 27-29 for the 308, well mine anyway).

Ok it's pitch black and you can't see the scope in front of your eyes so you have to count clicks.  Q: Can you make the shot even with gen 4 night vision past 5 - 600 yds?   Can you read the winds at night?  

I would be more concerned with windage than elevation, being able to read the winds and trusting the reliablilty of my equipment.  With a good log book and data for the conditions I don't see elevation as being the problem.  Learning the wind is.   Hell you could leave the scope on zero and hit targets with holds with a little practice.  Dial in 300 yds and you should be able to hit targets out to 600  without even changing the dials.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 13:12:07 (ZULU)

I'll take a few differences with you... I set up my serious rifles so the scope is at the bottom of the elevation travel at 100yds/mtrs, but when I go to a shoot, none of the other guys are doing it.

Most (like 99+%) of guys DON'T have their 1/4 minute scopes set-up so the zero is at the bottom of the turret range... many even believe that's it BAD to do that, because of so called "Optical Distortion" (HA!... another old lady's tale that refuses to die!!)... so their turret is in the middle of it's 10 or 12 turns, and finding the 100 zero is tough if you are under pressure, or can't see the calibrations.   And the calibrations on the MK4-M1 are so small that they are hard to read in bright light.

Because it's too dark to see the calibrations, doesn't mean that you are shooting at night, it means that YOU are in a dark space (like a barn loft... deep in a hidey hole... under a camo net, etc), but you can see out in bright light through a hole.  I have this happen when I'm I'm hid up, shooting Crows, and chucks... and they don't shoot back.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 13:35:21 (ZULU)

Anyone have Det. Brian Vice's email address?  He posted on here about a year ago.  I cant figure out how to search the archives or I would.

If ya have it launch ot to me offline please.

Full moa, less than one turn, 1/4 moa fine tune elevation and windage(ya have it when ya need it), mil dot reticle w/1/2 mil marks, internal lazer RF, side parallax, 3.5x10x40, built in can opener, built like a brick shit house, we could all die happy.  But we would probably fight over the can opener....

Lemme know when someone builds it.  

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 14:45:10 (ZULU)

Litto doesn't everybody set their scope up correctly.  20 - 30 MOA bases (hummm minus 2 plus revolutions) maybe shim the base for another 6moa.  I think the most minus moa I have on any of my tactical rifles is about 7moa.   And yes the MK4 M1 turrets are NOT the greatest, I have one that I don't use too often.   Undude another plus for US Optics.

Below is a link to kind of an SF patrol SITREP in Afgan.  

http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/ESRC=army.nl&file=FL_patrol_010802

Gooch what's up with training and match schedule?

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 16:05:13 (ZULU)

John in MS <jrr051468@aol.com>
Land of the crazy hillbilly..., - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 16:33:48 (ZULU)

Go to the Leupold website, customer service section and ask them for a new upgraded or updated cam for the M3's. The more demand they see, the quicker they might get this ball rolling. Mucho gracious to 'lito-san for his efforts!!

'lito-- the 30-06 cam is what I use mostly.  At 500 It's 1 moa high, 600 hits 3 moa high, 700 2 moa high, 800 2 high, 900 2 low, and 1k 2 low.  My loads are running 2676 avg. with the 175's and 44.5 gr. of 4064.  I may not always catch the winds right but I have several 5-6 in. groups at 1k so I think I'll stay with that load!!!

The Baptist

John in MS <jrr051468@aol.com>
Land of the crazy hillbilly..., - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 16:34:47 (ZULU)

I e-mailed Leupold on 12/13/2001 asking if and when a 308/168gr cam will be available.  I got an e-mail back from the Product Specialist Group saying the cams will be available after the 1st of the year.  They said to place an order in a month and they should be able to fill the order.

By the sound of Lito's post eariler, I does not look like they are ready or if they are able to send you one the cam I won't be marked correctly and you will just have ANOTHER CAM FOR YOUR SCOPE THAT DOES NOT TRACK THE 168's CORRECTLY.

Dave

Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 16:39:10 (ZULU)

Arafat is almost certainly responsible for offensive arms imports.  Add this to Hamas killing four Israeli soldiers yesterday and you can hear the war drums roll.  The arms came from Iran.  Iran may undergo a revolution.  Possible big blow up in both places.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16937-2002Jan8.html

Buckley on Musharraf's dilemma.  We're operating in Pakistan and have definitely got a dog in this fight:

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley.shtml

The painfully incompetent Ivy League bed wetters at the State Department should be relieved of responsibility for dealing with Iraq.  Stop screwing around and give it to DOD.  

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-lake010902.shtml

Wolfowitz (hard-line Deputy SecDef for those of you who came in late) says we're not hitting Iraq next.  He gives some of his reasons here:

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$JQZB0QQAAAAYVQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/09/wirq09.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/09/ixworld.html

Watch Somalia.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 16:55:16 (ZULU)

I've got some big problems.  With y'all talking about reloading so much, I got the urge to bring out my reloading equipment, and try again. ( I didn't have much luck the first time I tried) Well it was all going alright, but then a case got stuck in my Hornady resizing die, and the case holder tore off the rim.  (loading for .308)  I took it to a gunsmith friend of mine, and he couldn't get it out, so I got my RCBS die out.  That worked well for a while, but then the decapping pin broke, and the expander bent.  Now I'm really up $#!* creek.  I would like some help on what I'm doing wrong.  I use the ground Mica from MidwayUSA, like the Hornady rep told me to, but to no avail.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Sorry about this post, I know this isn't "reloading country", but I think it sorta pertains to "Sniping".

Out

Mayhem <killare@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 17:17:04 (ZULU)

  I have to disagree with your theory on the scopes. The problem comes in when your shooting multiple targets at radically different ranges.

  I have had a target at 700+ and then one show up at 430 then back to 900 and then back down again. When your under pressure and time constraints and moving from station to station bad stuff will happen!!!

 I definately get "Brain farts"and mis dial. When my son and I shoot togeather in matches we always double check each other on the rezero because we have both been burned. I even got burned two years ago on a wind dial that I didn't rezero or so I thought until I realized that carryng the rifle on my back was the problem. The dial was rubbing on the pack and moving my windage knob. So if it can go wrong it will, trust me esp with a last name of Murphy!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 17:35:33 (ZULU)

Brandon <bub220@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 17:37:10 (ZULU)

>"Go to the Leupold website, customer service section and ask them for a new upgraded or updated cam for the M3's. The more demand they see, the quicker they might get this ball rolling."<

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John, Please don't try to start anything with Leupold... you are a new guy here, and don't know 1/1000th of the history of this cam thing!

Please don't nag Lupita about this.  This is not an issue of them thinking the customers don't care or don't want them... there are a lot of issues in this that you'z guyz don't understand, and I'm not going into... but they are VERY MUCH aware of the situation, and now they want to solve this more than most of you.  Don't push them!

Also, even though this is an open forum, the stuff I post here is for you guys...  please don't hassle a company I'm involved with (unless I ask you to ;)))

-

CDC...

I caught a news clip this morning that there's proof that Arafat arranged for the 50 tons of weapons to be sent to the Gaza Strip... I think they are going to go at it this time... the drums are getting louder, and nobody is at the helm in Palistine, and the Jebrews are up to their collective ass' with htis crap.  I'm working with somebody on a "quick shoot" sniper accessory fir the IDF snipers that should be done in 4 to 6 weeks... they need all the help that they can get.

I was thinking this morning, that when you consider what's going on in the 'stan, Iraq, Iran, Israel, the Phillipines, Indonesia, and other "hot spots", I'm starting to think this is going to be a BIG ONE, like the crusades... it seems like most of the muslim countries are attacking the western way of life E-V-E-R-Y-W-H-E-R-E... I also heard that we are sending "advisors" to the Phillipines (Hmmm where have I heard that before).  I think this is the begining of the big one... with an enemy that doesn't care if they die... a very badd combination!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 17:45:02 (ZULU)

30-06 BDC seems way off compared to what I have seen on the MK4's.  Had several go through classes and the 06 wheeel worked perfectly past 600 yards with Factory 175's. 168s dont have anywhewre near the same BDC as the 180 or 175's so using the 168 wheel make me think they screwed up marking them. By the way I may know a few Police Snipers that shoot past 200 yards.  Keep in mind many scopes dont track the amount they are supposed to.  The Varix# LR M1 I had worked great so it would surprize me if you had an elevation tracking problem, but check it out just the same.

Gooch, you sure you dont want the scope to give you a BJ also?

Pablito, I think you should stick with the 100 yard zero and work from there.  Guys playing a game always screw up when they take that crap to the real world.  I do like what Tony is talking about.  It makes sense to know the clicks up from bottom to your zeros.  We dont turn on a light to see what the scope is set at. Common practice is to remember total number of clicks from mechanical bottom to zero.

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 17:45:02 (ZULU)

Re LR M3 "cams".  There now exists a "cam" for the LR M3 for the 168 SMK @ 2600 fps.  It is a special order.  I have one.  The info came from 'lito and his write-up on Loopy "cams":

"There is a special order cam for the target load of 168SMK at 2600 (Fed GM, and Black Hills 168 load)... it tracks in YARDS!"

It is marked 308M 168GR.  Cost was $35.

Hey this edit function is great.  I should have said, It was marked 308M.  I blacked out the "M" on mine.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 18:03:50 (ZULU)

Ken <neil@newcon-optik.com>
test, test, test - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 18:07:17 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 18:40:04 (ZULU)

I don't think of it like WW2... but more like an all over the world, constant state of conflict, like the Mau Mau's in Africa back in the 50's, (or the Israelis for the past 30 years), where you could never rest or relax and let your guard down... cuz  they would hit you as soon as you relaxed for a minute.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 18:56:27 (ZULU)

In some UKD competitions you do run stress courses where targets are poping up everywhere but in a real scenario would you be shooting that way.   Maybe if your trying to vacate the AO ASAP but then you would probably would use holds because you aren't going to be screwing with a bunch of dials at the time and if you have the time to mess with them then you have time to think about what your doing.   Myself, I would like to improve on my holds and I don't mean 1" groups at 300 yards, I mean hitting a target wherever from off hand on the move.   If that many targets are poping up that quick than I hope my spotter is carrying a M249 SAW because a sniper rifle isn't going to cut it.   After all your not being very stealth if your poping off 10 rounds in 45 seconds or so especially when the targets have a pair of eyes.

And yes we all get brain farts.   I just love it when your in a course and they have you running stress all over the place carrying 55 gal drums and such to get your heart rate up and then you have to make a cold bore shot at 100 yds and find out the SOBs changed your windage a full revolution.   Lesson learned, check your settings before pulling the trigger.  You only get one shot.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 19:27:14 (ZULU)

I just heard the radio report:  Refueling plane crashed with seven Marines on board.  Let's hope they made it out.  It sure hurts to lose them.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 20:02:34 (ZULU)

1cm click at 100m = .361 moa.(.394") so to move poi 1" at 100m you would need 2.54 clicks.

a 1cm(/100m) click would move poi .9144 cm or .36"(.36 moa) at 100y.

any way comparing inches and cm back and forth tends to complicate matters, its far easier to just forget the  inches feet yards and adopt the cm m and km, yep nothing new the Germans where at it in WWII.

Most European scopes(from name manufacturers) designed for the European market have 1 click = 1cm at 100m adjustment, now I'm always yapping on about these S&B scopes and their merrits, and the PM II range have 1cm click adjustments and they all have a BDC with a total of 130cm at 100m (46.8" at 100y) adjustment in 1 turn, total adjustment range with in the scopes, top to bottom is:

10x42 = 270cm @ 100m, (87.2" @ 100y).

3-12x50 = 200cm @ 100m,(72" @ 100y).

4-16x50 = 185cm @ 100m,(66.6" at 100y)

so with our total adjustment in one turn of the BDC we can reach 1000m within less than 1 turn with a 308.( every 2nd click is marked with a small line ever 10th click with a larger line and corresponding number)

Ranging with the S&B scopes using the Mil Dot tericle, easy same formulas as for yards.

Height or width of object ( in M) x1000

_________________________________________    = distance in m.

height or width of object in mils  

so assume we use an average size man as our object,

of course this is where things can get squew wiff, as how tall is a man, lets take 1m 80cm, considering combat boots and helmet we won't be too far off.

you can split a body into 4 sections,

feet to knees ( approx 50 cm)

Knees to waist (approx 50cm)

waiste to shoulders (approx 50cm)

shoulders to top of head (approx 30cm)

hence we can either take waiste to shoulders, or knees to shoulders, giving us an easy rekoning size to range with either 1m or .5m

so:

1m x1000

_________      = 285.7 m

3.5 mils

or

.5m x1000

__________    = 333.3 m

1.5 mils

or even

1m x 1000

__________   = 1000m

1 mil

this is so much easier than dividing fractions.

if you check out the S&B  web site they have have a nice chart which helps the maths.

and to adjust your trajectory from y to m is simple maths that any one with a balistics programme and calculator can do, of course yo need to shoot at these extended ranges if you want true precision, as a trajectory table from a computer may not match your actual trajectory of your particular round and rifle. I don't rely on a BDC 's  marked off in zeros for a particular range, I know the clicks( and have an accompanying chart) I need for every 20m incrementation to 650m (don't shoot further these days cos im only hunting,) and will eventualy engrave the turret at intervals of 50m for quick adjustment.

but if you know you need lets say 24 clicks to hit at 450m (as per my 30-06) then you wind quickly to the 2 mark and then wind on 4 clicks, any how, thats enough for today cos ive been feeling crap all day as it is, pebble dashing the bog and saying hello to my mate Joooooeeerg, and still working too. catch you tommorow guys, Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 20:07:05 (ZULU)

 We do agree, when talking apples and apples but I guess I was thinking more competition and you were talking more real world scenareo's. I, like you, would be doing more hold over on multiple fast targets in real world with a longer zero dialed in. I was taking small targets at really long ranges.

Mayhem..

 From the sounds of things your not using enough case lube. Try the Dillon brand I have used it for years and have never had a stuck case with it. You should also buy a stuck case remover to extract them from your die if if does happen. They used to be less then $10 and work slick. Good luck!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 20:10:46 (ZULU)

Oh by the way guys I've got an idea how to solve those Cam problems and targets at multiple ranges. Let's get Leupold to paint some circles for different ranges with our etcher on the glass. We can make several models so you can get one to fit your load. the circles could be like say a half a man in diameter or say even 18" would still probably work. That way you won't need special mounts just shoot on the circles. No target turrets to get knocked off or get turned....Might even put MIl dots on the edge and sides or across the first circle to use for movers. Wow Bill! where did you get that idea? (I'm gonna catch hell ain't I?)

Mayhem; That's just a days work in the reloading shop. Be not discouraged. You need a device called a stuck case remover. It's a bitch at first but it will take those stuck cases out. Watch your lube in the future but bent pins and stuff are just part of the game.

Go slow at first. The dies need to be all the way touching when  you resize for tactical loads.  For accuracy neck sizing is appropriate but I don't recommend it for beginners. Oh yes, check your loads before the match or hunt by chambering and ejecting them until you get the hang of it. And then.... check the bastards anyway!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 20:20:24 (ZULU)

Anybody intrested in the new Kimber 308? Is a fiberglass stock availible? If it shoots like my 45 could be a winner it under 6lbs.

Regards, Ryan

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 21:23:08 (ZULU)

Don't use mica for case sizing... it's not slippery enuff.

Use a liquid lube.  Dillon, RCBS, and most other companies make them... I'm using a water base lube (RCBS #2) for case sizing, and just wash the cases afterwards.  You can use mica for inside neck lubing, IF you are necksizing only!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 21:28:46 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 21:33:44 (ZULU)

 I've seen a couple of times different folks have refered to lapping thier rings. What exactly is this process and is it something that a modest firearm mechanic could perform. I have been reading the how-to section and havent run across it.

  Also, I posted a while back with a question about the 20 moa incline on my loopy base and did'nt specify m3 lr or Mk4. I hav'nt purchased a new scope yet but was leaning towards the LR M3. I understand that the Mk4 M3 when mounted on the "flat" Mk4 base will get me out to 1k but what size shims am I going to need to build the base up to 20 moa for the M3 LR?

  Lito... Did you say that the new LR M3 ie...new cams and reticle would be out soon? If so I will wait.

Again.. thanks for the help  

JakeP

Jake P <para13bp@gsinet.net>
NH, USA - Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 05:42:51 (ZULU)

If you get a MK4-M3, get a flat base (one piece or two piece MK4 base is good).  For the M3-LR, you should have at least 20 moa of taper, 25 is better.

The cams will be another month or so, as there is a NEW player at Lupita (again!), and he knows nada about them.

The reticles should be available now, or in a few weeks, contact Premier Reticles and ask for DIck... tell him Paul Coburn sent you.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 10:03:06 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 13:12:22 (ZULU)

If you want some M118, contact me.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 13:45:02 (ZULU)

Thought some of you might be interested in hearing it before the evening news

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The shipment on the Karin A finally totalled 80 tons and included 30 SVDs and the special rounds that make it worthwhile (7H1). Also in quantity were lots of .308 from the US bearing the LC mark.  I'd bet that snoops were visiting the plant before Zinni got here. 21/2 tons of C4. 120 mm Katyushas (20 km range), 120 mm mortars, plastic AT mines, PPKs, Saggers, US LOWs, all kinds of goodies very well organized.  No Hisbulla reps on board and the captain, a splendid PLO personality, is singing arias. Makes one think how much has gotten by unfound. We know that the Gaza strip is an arsenal from which all the Palestinians draw and more comes over the border from Lebanon and Jordan, but our hesitancy to go for big boom scenarios derives from our size, our need to get US OKs, and our Peres and Beillin geniuses.  The US would be a different story if the Indians had had overwhelming finances, numbers and logistics- breaking them would not have been an option.  Breaking the Islamists will require an enormous enterprise. Our backyard here may be one theater, but frankly we've not got the size or ability to do more than continually put out painful and repeating brushfires on a tactical level.  Quenching the big one for long term effect will require much much more and is a global challenge.

 Don't expect a hasty response here. The Palestinians last year sent more than 400 of their best to England where each got a L96, then went on to training at the NVD base near Moscow for training.  Another group of about 40 apparently was trained at Langley, Va. in advanced weapons and sniping.  Clinton and Tennet are such nice guys you could just cry.  By Soviet doctrine they are just waiting to play their big cards when we come to visit en masse.  We visit military cemeteries all too often as it is.

Without a solution on a much grander scale and without the agreement and participation of other powers, I would not expect to see your big boom come about here or quickly, despite all.  Fed up we are, but not in so luxurious a position that we can afford to rampage or dream of big time payback dramas.  Remember that after all we are about the size of N.J., do not have expansionist dreams and have no natural resources.  Settling our internal challenges is really enough of a challenge.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 15:25:36 (ZULU)

Anybody tried logging on to their website lately?  Tried logging on and was told unauthorized access to a NBC secured site.  I hope its the TV station that other stuff gives me the creeps.

Fitz.

Fitz <sfitzgerald@arpac.com>
- Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 15:49:59 (ZULU)

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 16:22:38 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20020110-36373221.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/28jan02/editorial012802.shtml

Similar thoughts on Iran:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22887-2002Jan9.html

Israel hasn't the power to decisively deal with all this, but they could change the dynamic of the coming explosion.  

Justice is tracking down the 6,000 young Middle Eastern men who have been ordered deported.  There are screams of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, etc, etc.  Screw 'em.  Toss 'em out.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 16:35:22 (ZULU)

What it does is to "knock down" any high spots in the rings that would bind the scope and cause mild to severe optical deflections of the scope....

The rods themselves can also be used to "center" a set of rings onto your bases, and also to install the "twist and turn" type rings into they're bases as well....

The new Burris Zee types rings, the Jewell rings, etc. with the plastic "inserts" eliminate the need for lapping...

Hope this helps...

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., USofA - Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 16:38:48 (ZULU)

shoot straight!

Brandon <bub220@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 23:10:51 (ZULU)

My son, lapping is a maker of men, an enlarger of forearms, a testosterone building experience that only can be appreciated after hours of toing and froing and backing and forthing. It is a right of passage into the ancient Brotherhood of Lappers. It is more that a mere piece of steel with grit on it. It is the finely tuned and trued piece of stainless with a precisely placed plastic handle. It is the smell of the sweat from your brow as it drops on the aromatic polishing compound as it slowly entices the ring metal from it's parent. The repeated insertions and extractions to observe the slowly developing white patches on the perfectly aligned rings are an arousing experience.

Wowzers this is making me exited! Lap me baby and make it hurt!

Go to Sinclair's or Brownell's websites and order the stuff, will do you good.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/index.html

http://www.brownells.com/

Whew, Bolt out for a cold shower!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 23:13:19 (ZULU)

using the mil dot reticle, this reticle is split up into segments, from the cross in the centre to the thicker part of the reticle it covers 5 mils in either direction, (1 mil = 3.6" at 100y and 36" at 1000y, but you guys already know that right), so what we have in mm, cm, and m is the following, 1 mil at 100m is = to 10cm, so the distance from the centre of one of the football shape dots to the centre of the next is 1 mil( equally from the leading edge of one football to the leading edge is also a mil, depends which point you prefer to use, i find the edge easier to define than the centre of the dot)

The length of the football dot is equal to 25mm at 100m ( almost an inch !!) and the space between the dots is 75mm at 100m, so ranging works exactly the same as for yards and inches, the mildot reticle been broken down into segments, but because from one thich post to the other is 10 mils which is equal to 1m at 100m the process of working out the whole system becomes easier and less cluttered with fractions, as eveything becomes a multiple or fraction of 10 instead of a multiple of fraction of 3.6, ok we are still working with fractions, but now they are 1/4 and 1/2 or 3/4 of 10, which to my mind is a damn sight easier to rekon than anything else.

as i said yesterday an average man is 1m from knee to shoulder, so conveniently he should then fit exactly between our top and bottom thick posts, covering the space of 10 mils, hence we know he stands at 100m, so our bad guy decides to leg it and runs away, because he's never seen snipercountry.com and he doesn't know not to run cos he'll only die tired, he stops to look back and cannot believe he is still alive, we range him again using our mil dot reticle, this time he covers only 9 mils, so we know by using our formula of:

height of object in m x1000

____________________             = distance in m

number of mils

so we now know he is 111 m away.

this carries on with our man running away we range him again several times,

8 mils = 125m

7 mils = 142m

6 mils = 166m

5 mils = 200m

4 mils = 250m

3 mils = 333m   ( now we need maybe to start using fractions of a mil)

2.75 mils = 363m

2.5 mils = 400m

2.25 mils = 444m

2 mils = 500m

1.75 mils = 571m

1.5 mils = 666m around here is where ranging with the reticle becomes more difficult as judging fractions of a mil is inaccurate, however still better than an out right guess, and the larger the object we are ranging the easier it is and it is surprising how well one can judge the distance with some practice, and as far as military sniping is concerned a hit on a man any where from his scalp to his balls will seriously spoil his day, of course we will try for centre mass, however since we are interested in absolute precision !!! buy a lazer range finder !!  

1.25 mils = 800m

1 mil   = 1000m

so by now our bad guy has covered some distance, we range him again with our reticle,he appears to cover 1 mil, ie from his knees to his shoulders he fits in between the cross at centre ret and half of the first football, now after a full km he is good n tired, so its time to put him out of his misery, we dial in our required amount of clicks, the wind is coming directly from him to us, BOOM ! our bad guy ain't tired any more.

Bearing in mind that depending on our particular scope and in which focal plane the reticle is, our mils will only apply at one magnification setting.

S&B PMII has the reticle in the objective focal plane, meaning we can range with our reticle with the scope on any magnification setting, The problem of seeing the markings on the bdc's at night is universal, illuminouse paint can help, and maybe a brail type system of extra markings could be developed to mark every 10th click.

Surely the metric system is quicker and easier to use, I used the imperial system when i had leupold scopes for a few years, but since changing to S&B i have found the metric system better.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 00:07:34 (ZULU)

 Dude - hate to bust yer bubble - but once yer setup - 15 minute or less and yer done... I guess you're one of those loooooonnnnnnng strokers... - LOL

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 00:27:01 (ZULU)

Sorry Mike, didn't mean to get your keyboard wet.  How is the nose?  Still burning form the bubbles?

Hold hard Guys

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 01:49:52 (ZULU)

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 01:54:31 (ZULU)

Gotta shut it down for now.

All orders postmarked before 0000 (local time) 16 Jan. will be filled, supplies permitting. After that, it's gonna be 10 Feb. or so til I can get back to that deal.

Price of $35.00 include shipping and one sticker. DON'T include extra for shipping. Additional stickers are $2.50, max. one per order. Will get more made, if you guys want 'em. Probably more plates, too.

One of our posters of Norwegian affiliation was kind enough to tell me that the outfit in Norway that I sold some of my product to back in November was indeed the unit deployed to A'stan. To all the US, UK, and Norwegian shooters looking through a mildot reticle, I hope like hell that my gizmo helps in some way. May your eye be keen, your aim true, your wind dope exact, and your hold steady. Tell your targets that the friends of Ms. Gronlund send their warmest regards.

'lito, Undude, Rick, and CDC':

You guys get your packages? If not, let me know and I'll get a tracer going.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 02:11:34 (ZULU)

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 02:17:58 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 02:21:32 (ZULU)

I did get a package.  The postman was in tears when he dropped it off, and I asked him if he was OK? and he said "I will be, when you take this steeenkin package from New Mexico off my hands!"...

Smokin' Dude!  ;)

Thanks

-

Dennis...

I wrote this for another Rosterfarian two days ago, so I'll just paste it here...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Scopes have an optical center, and a machanical center, and in 99.999% of the scopes, they are the same.  If the elevation (and windage) turrets are centered in their adjustment range, the crosshairs point along the machanical axis of the tube.

Most (aka "FLAT") scope bases are made so when put on the action, a straight edge over them is parallel to the bore... (although there are minor variations in the dimentions of each action from "spec")

SO... if you put a scope with the turrets centered, in a set of rings, on a flat base... the cross hairs will be pointing 2" above the bore line at range.

Now there a few variances in dimentions (a thou here, and a thou there), but you have the idea.

Now, you get a scope that has 50 moa of total elevation, and you use 4 moa of up to zero it at 1000... and you have 21 moa of "up" left... If you look at your 1/4 target scope on your rifle, you will see all the wasted elevation on the dial below your 100 zero... you can NEVER use it... and 21 moa can't get you past about 600 or 700 yds.

But if you get a base that is already pointed down by 25 moa, then this 25 gets added to the 21 you had left, and when you re-zero, you now have 46 moa of up left, and your 100 zero is down on the bottom of the elevation turret's travel... that's why you need a tapered base with a M3-LR.

On the MK4-M3, when the elevation is "centered" in it's travel, the optical axis is pointed down, because the scope has a built in "Optical taper"!  The optical and machanical axis' are not parallel... when the turrets are centered, the scope is looking down about 25 to 30 moa already... so on a flat base, you have 50+ moa of elevation to use when setting up the cam, and you always get the full range of elevation (about 50 moa) which will take past 1,100 yds/mtrs... so that's why the MK4-M3 needs a flat base, and the M3-LR needs a tapered base.

If you don't use the right base, you will not beable to use the full range... the M3-LR won't go to 1000 yds with a flat base, and the MK4-M3 won't shoot closer that maybe 300 yds on a tapered base... there are a few times that you might get away with it, because of variations in receivers (the front ring being a bit higher, or a bit lower), but don't count on it...

I hope this explaines it!

-

Brad... you can take the bolt out witn the safety in the middle position, or with the safety off... no mater, however with the safety in the middle position, you can take the bolt apart if you want.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 03:21:14 (ZULU)

You are obviously developing that dreaded syndrome of 'Premature Lapping'. Your rings will loose interest and seek a lapper of more stamina and staying power!

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 03:26:21 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 03:29:28 (ZULU)

I have been ranging Roe deer for the past few years, they tend to average about 70cm from brisket to rump, ranging on depth of body on these deer is all but impossible because the little buggers near as damn it always stand in some long grass, of course a small target like this becomes a sod to range after about 500m, as just a .25 mil difference increases your range by over 100, which is why I bought a lazer, got the Bushnel 400 when they first came out and the Leica as soon as they had sorted the problems.

Just been watching an assault rifle evaluation on Bravo, they had a CR21 SAR 21 L85 and a G36, the G36 won, the damn Brit one costs over double what the German one does, and it was assessed as a crock of crap, hell I could of told em that when it first came out,

Seems to be a few war movies comeing to the screens lately or soon, looking forward to Black Hawk Down after reading the book.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 03:40:31 (ZULU)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 03:47:51 (ZULU)

I found it mention in "The M25 Sniper Weapon System (SWS) and How it Differs From the M21 SWS. Submitted by Mr. Bain With Assistance from Others" <http://www.prostar.com/web/sniper/article7.html>

Frank

Frank Sottile <FSottile@SWBell.Net>
Wimberley, TX, U.S.A. - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 06:43:59 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 10:38:57 (ZULU)

I was wondering about wind estimation by looking at clouds. Supposedly one technique Hatchock used was watching the clouds.

Offcours this whould not be the best technique, but one of many. Anybody tried it?

Robert...

Robert T. <robert2@online.no>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 11:12:38 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 12:28:50 (ZULU)

 Just a thought... does setting the head space to an unfired Federal gold medal match case sound like a good idea. Handloading is definately out until my youngest flies the nest.

FESTUS <festus99506@yahoo.com>
anchorage, ak, usa - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 13:03:01 (ZULU)

I'm currently building a Savage 10FP in .308.

Anybody know any thing about Nikko Stirling Scopes?

Thanks,

Festus

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 13:09:11 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28483-2002Jan10.html

Palestinian arms ship:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28790-2002Jan10.html

Krauthammer on the ship:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28777-2002Jan10.html

And we're growling at Iran.  Invest in war.  Its a growth industry.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 13:19:27 (ZULU)

What do you mean "...setting the head space to an unfired Federal gold medal match case..."??  Are you going to re-set your barrel... WHY?

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 13:54:02 (ZULU)

Watching clouds is not a good idea. Any time you have a pressure system inversion you can have clouds travelling a completely different direction than ground wind. Air flow 100ft up may be decidedly different for that matter.

Festus out

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 14:30:33 (ZULU)

 I have been working with a good custom gunsmith here in Anchorage.

He builds really spendy bench guns for folks with more money than common sense. According to him I should be able to offset throat play by moving my headspace to the minimum for the round I use. It should close up my bench group by at least .2 MOA. With a Savage its a 20 minute job requiring no machine work just removal of the firing pin (safety item)and then barrel adjustment. Says He'll teach me if I want to learn. Can't afford to pass up any oppurtunity like like that.

Festus

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 14:37:15 (ZULU)

As usual, we're all LOL!  Don't forget about Kokopelli lapping kits and other products.  It's really good stuff, and the guy is great to work with.

Festus, my experience with Savage rifles is that they are pretty accurate out of the box.  I like 'em for what they are made for.  If you are really going to do what you indicated, don't you think you're putting too much perfume on a pig?  It sounds like a lot of work.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Anyone know of a good CEO, in hi-tech, USA? - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 14:45:50 (ZULU)

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 14:58:28 (ZULU)

I never got anywhere trying to sell my own method of dealing with target size in tenths of a yard. Once the target size is in 10ths and the dots are measured by 10ths the formula becomes hopelessly easy. I could never quit doing Mil Dots in my head, but this is a recommendation for Bruce's excellent tool not a slam against the use of something better than the old methods. I'm not sure there's a way out of this. Your pleading of the metric case is convincing but it's hard to alter the old ways by logical progression. Many myths and habits persist in spite of a path to better ways that looms brightly in the near distance. We tend to embellish those who tout experience as the lighted path. Although nothing beats personal experience for pure knowledge, if only works best if you live through it! The battle field cemetarys are full of those with great personal experience. For my money I'll put it on the one who takes the experiences of others for evaluation and studies hard their failures for my real expert advice.

I don't remember Hathcock using clouds. Perhaps in the mountains it might be possible in some cases to use traveling vapors but the Wind is vastly different at altitude. Even a known or broadcast wind speed is very often in error as to events close to the ground. The trajectory path of the bullet must also be taken into consideration. For instance a 500 yard prone shot is subject to wind average equal to about 3' (in the real world it's slightly higher because you can't see from a prone position on flat earth out to 500 yards meaning some end has to be higher than the other.) above the ground whereas a 1000 yard shot may travel quite a while 20' above the ground depending on the caliber and Bal. Coef. of course. In the mountains it's common to encounter between hills winds of quite a bit higher speed than where the shooter sets up or the target exists. Perhaps that cloud thing is some author's embellishment of misunderstanding or perhaps my history isn't complete. Hathcock (vietnam) according to most accounts was big on measuring the wind with heat waves. That's been discussed in length here. Gunny later resorted to heavy barrels and Mil Dots but kept his affection for heat waves. The neat thing about heat waves is that once you learn to read them the wind direction and angle is irrelivant and they are self averaging. I've been taken to task for depending on them because experts say you can't look through a lens and see the conditions truly at the target but it's an average you're looking for the way I see it. The waves tend to do that. You must be careful though when reading over a hot barrel. I prefer to use binoculars but others say that's too slow to transcend as wind changes in just seconds it takes to get back on the rifle sights. IF wind reading were easy, I would probably have found someone that was good at it in 50 years of shooting!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 14:58:44 (ZULU)

1. 1-5 mph. People from Penn are W.VA. are complaining about the wind.

2. 7-10 mph. People from east of the Mississipi have turned their caps backwards and are boltering the legs of the bipods with logs.

3. 12-17 mph. People from the Midwest & Great lakes regions are making excuses already.

4. 18-25 mph. People from Idaho and New Mexico are wondering how much it varies and getting out wind charts while asking where the good beer joints are.

5. 30-50mph People from Texas are talking about cattle prices and drinkin Lone Star while cranking their turrets and tieing down their hats.

6. 55-105mph Coyote hunters from Kansas, Nebraska, Eastern Colorado and the Dakotas have already shot and are headed for the Coors cooler talking about what a fine day for shooting it is.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 15:16:16 (ZULU)

How many of you are planning to attend the "SHOT Show"??  How many are going to have a booth at the show?  It would be good to put some faces with names.

Jim <jaa.jr@verizon.net>
Flower Mound , Texas, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 15:17:36 (ZULU)

"Many myths and habits persist in spite of a path to better ways that looms brightly in the near distance. We tend to embellish those who tout experience as the lighted path."

Geez Bill is this a senior moment or the instructions for a Shepard Scope?

Let thy not forget the spin drift formula...

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 15:26:19 (ZULU)

 Yea it is a lot of work but, If I'm learning the things that can help me build a better mouse trap. Maybe I can turn this sow's ear into a silk purse. Besides this is a hobby toy! I have lots of indoor time in AK in the winter. I've already lapped my rings and aquired a dial type torque wrench for rings, bases and stock retainer bolts. It must be the aircraft mechanic in me, but I like to do the attention to detail things. Accuracy rules supreme! And with the price of a Savage I don't mind taking it into the AK bush for a little hunting either.

FESTUS

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 15:40:15 (ZULU)

David Whitson <Jetlink@msn.com>
plano, TX, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 16:27:03 (ZULU)

This is very good.

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson011102.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 16:31:02 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 16:31:14 (ZULU)

Your 'smith is blowin' smoke in your ear (so stop breathin' heavy!).

First off, Federal doesn't use one machine and one die, to make brass... they crank this stuff out by the tons from many machines with a varity of dies, and no two dies are the same.

New Federal "Gold Match" (HA!) brass will vary in headspace by as much as 0.01" (one hundredth of an inch) from one machine to another... the shoulder angles (20 degrees-spec) will vary by +/- 1 degree, and the shoulder corners won't fully fit your rifle (no matter what you do) until they are fired.

The Savage rifles have the best system for setting factory headspace... leave it alone.  Also, moving the barrel back 0.01 will do NOTHING for the "throat play (jump)... as this is typically 0.30" (30 times the amount you are contemplating moving the barrel back.

And what happens if you use a "min" case as a gauge, and your nest batch of brass is "Max"... close the bolt with a rubber mallet???

And for last... your savage is a nice rifle for a $400 rifle, but it's not a match rifle... you can't make a match rifle out of it without spending mucho buckaroonies, and it's not the platform to do that with... something about sow's ears and silk purses.

So shoot up a bunch of factory ammo and keep the brass, then get a used press on ebay, and some match dies, and give it an honest try.

-

'yote Bate...

You forgot two major ones...

7 - South Dakota - Jeep is rockin' on it's tyres... OK to test benchrest loads for group size to shoot in the comin' match.

8 - South Dakota - Jeep is over on it's doors... too much wind to test benchrest loads, but OK for shootin' Prarie Dogs out to 700.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 17:15:42 (ZULU)

Bruce R., no package here.  Mail out here in California has been more screwed up than the politics, since 9-11.  I have been sending slings out and one out of seven is lost.  Some how nylon must smell like Anthrax.  I hope your package is not the same.  I may start sending everything FedEx.

On reading the clouds for the wind reading.  Works great if you are sitting in a cloud taking the shot.  I tend to use another tech.

With spotter:

Spotter has spotting scope on an item (Brush,mirage leaves etc) near target of half way and gives wind reading there.  I look at what the spotter did not, near or far, and compare.  If they are the same I go with wind needed for that range and wind conditions.  If they are different I split the monkey.  What I mean is I will see which wind value has the longer effect on the bullet.  Lets say for 2/3 of the way its a 5mph rt to left and then a 5mph left to right for the last third.  I would go with a 3mph setting for the whole distance.

Without spotter I set my spotting scope up half way to target and use my rifle scope for the target area.

Hope this helps

Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 17:16:09 (ZULU)

Just wondered if any of you Hawgs are going to be at the Military&Police Sniper Seminar in Gathersburg, MD next weekend? As of right now, I will be there. The Community College sends me up there every year. I normally get to see some old and good friends up there. I will have to hoist a few and tell some good lies with my little brother, Neil Morris.

Semper Fi,

Finger  

Jm Reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 17:32:01 (ZULU)

 Thanks for the reality check. I think my "smith" was either trying to get in my wallet or make my gun a little less field friendly.

A buddy of mine reloads .303 and told me just buy the dies and use his press. What is a good powder and load for repeatable performance?

I'd like to use 175 grain bthp for grins. Thanks again for not letting me screw up a good gun.

FESTUS

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 17:34:02 (ZULU)

 Thats about the way its been out here since Christmas. But then with all the remodeling I don't feel so bad when I can't get out to call yotes.

  I tell my son and his wife(She's from Iowa and he lives there now) that the wind doesn't blow in SD it just that Iowa SUCKS so bad and causes it!! That really causes the daughter in law to light up(HA)

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 17:37:19 (ZULU)

The new Lupita 3.5x10 M3-LR scope with the Gen 2 reticle just came in from Premier Reticles... and it's beau-damn-datious.

The reticle is a little different than the jpg I sent to some of you guys... instead of one, there are seven 5moa ticks on each of the verticle and horizontal bars, so you have an accurate 35 mils wide (and high) accurate measurment that will correspond to the graticule in a spotters (M19 - M22 style) bins... this is great for the spotter who is walking the shooter across the field to a hidden target.

At full power, the reticle is razor sharp and crisp, and at 3.5, the dots are big enough for trackin' or trappin' on movers.   Plus, at low power, the heavy bars and center section have the look of the Leupold "Duplex", and would be just dandy for off hand snaps at close moving targets (in LE applications).  The front is threaded for a hood/shade.

That's all for now, more later.

P.S... I will definitely get my M3-LR converted!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 17:46:27 (ZULU)

>"...that the wind doesn't blow in SD it just that Iowa SUCKS so bad and causes it!! That really causes the daughter in law to light up (HA)"<

It caused me to light up too... you're a piece of work! (Double HA!)

-

Festus... if you want to go cheap... get a Hornady set of .308 dies... they are far better than they should be considering the price of about $20 to $25 for the set... If you want to go full banana, get a Forster "Ultra Seater" to go along with the Hornady dies.

Set the Hornady FL sizer to neck size only, and you will be able to make VERY GOOD ammo... Pass on RCBS, and the Redding STANDARD dies.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 17:51:46 (ZULU)

My son drug home a new .308 LTR last night.  Plans to mount a M3 LR on a tapered base.

Question concerns reloading.  With the short 20" bbl on the LTR, would he be better off shooting the 168 gr SMK than the 175?  Would the higher velocity of the 168 give him more range than the 175?  Realize the 175 is better in the wind.  If the 168 would be a better starting choice for this rifle, would someone suggest a load using Varget, Laupa brass & 210M primers that would get him in the vicinity of 2600 fps so he can use the Leupold special order .308 168 gr "cam" (yds)?

'lito -

UPS just brought the Redding Neck die with .334 TiN bushing & the Forster seater.  Brass & bullets (nobody in this town stocks 178 SMK for some reason) came yesterday. Thanks for the info.  Also thanks for the post this morning re the reasons needed for the tapered base for the M3 LR.  Knew it was needed but wasn't exactly clear as to the mechanical reasons.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 18:36:21 (ZULU)

What brass are you using ??

Just curious....

JR

"Confucius say....crowded elevator smell different to midget"

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., USofA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 18:59:29 (ZULU)

>Don....a .334 neck bushing ??  How thin have you cut your neck walls ??

What brass are you using ??

Just curious....

JR<

New Laupa brass.  Haven't cut neck walls.  'lito posted on 1-2 (already archived I guess) that he made 80 measurments on the necks of 20 Laupa cases (4 each case) and all but 2 measurements were .015.  His recommendation was a .334 bushing.

Here's part of his post:

"OK, you take 2 x 0.015 = 0.030", plus .308 = 0.338.  that's the OD of the neck on the finished round... a bushing of 0.334" will give you a neck that is 0.004" undersize... good for tactical loads with slow powders.  This is with annealed cases (NEW!!) that don't have hardly any spring back.  When the necks get hard, then anneal them (or replace the cases)."

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 19:25:55 (ZULU)

I cut, paste & keep all this good info, just can't ever find it.

Don  

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 19:37:53 (ZULU)

Lito,

That new reticle design and power set up on the M3 LR sounds nice. Can you send me the reticle picture you were talking about? I understand it's not the exact same but just to get an idea. It might be something I'd like to do on mine. Thanks.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 19:49:38 (ZULU)

Rob...

They have posted the reticle on the website.  Go to:

http://www.premierreticles.com/

... and you will see it.  Click in the reticle, and you will see a larger version...  I will have the sample for 21 days (unless I leave town with it ;)... if you are in the Fairfield area, we can meet for a brewski, and you can look at it.

If any of you guys are thinking about a M3-LR, or have one, do this reticle... it rocks!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 20:38:03 (ZULU)

Kevin, Tony and others.  I am still waiting to get word back from MacClellan on dates.  I also have dates coming from instructors.  Im working on it:-)

You cops might be interested in this.  I am working with the Alabama State Police developing thier sniper program.  We're running the first course at the end of Feb and will be running more after that as well as sniper employment officer and collective training with sniper and assault teams.  All that will be through the DPS Police Academy so if youre interested get with me and I'll get you points of contact at the academy.  i would love to have about 10 of you cops call the academy and ask for school dates!!

This is what is called, "working your bolt".

Out here.

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 20:59:06 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Willuis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 21:41:21 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 22:02:26 (ZULU)

The two names that come to mind first are Sinclair (they have at least 2 models) and K&M (which is supposed to have a new revised model with a direct read indicator option).  Forester also makes two, one for standard size cases and one for the .50 BMG.  As far as connecting to a drill motor, it is the case holder that does this.  I know that K&M and Hart have these options.  What you may want to do is look at them and see how they feel in you hand.  One of the Sinclair models is made larger for better grip or control.  The K&M has the most precise adjustment for setting the cutter.  They also have a pilot that is carbide that will trim away what are called "donuts" inside the neck at the junction with the shoulder.

You will also want to get an expander.  Which means that you size the neck but don't use the expander in the die.  You then run the case onto the expander which is sized to ensure a snug fit on the trimmer mandrel.

Prices will probably start at about $50 and likely take you up to $80 - $100 depending on the options you go for.

This is one of those rought areas to shop for if you don't have someone you know who already has one of the devices that you can play touchie feely with before you lay out the cash.

Hope this helps!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 22:40:37 (ZULU)

http://usatoday.com/usatonline/20020111/3765561s.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 22:41:56 (ZULU)

You probably don't have to mess with your Savage's bbl any.  They generally come at minimal SAAMI spec on purpose.  If you cut back any further, you start risking standard ammo not fitting (and I think you mentioned not getting into reloading right now).  If you and your smith are dying to do something along that lines, you could set the bbl back slightly to decrease the lead to a minimal amount, then sink the chamber again slightly to keep it at minimum specs for factory ammo.  But I don't know that it's time well spent unless you just want to spend it.

Savages are extremely accurate out of the box and they have a well designed action that most people feel is inherently more accurate than a Rem700.  The difference is that, as we all know, the Savage stocks leave much to be desired (whatever happened to the H&S Precision idea?...) and their trigger, though very cleanly breaking, is very heavy and wants replacement rather than adjustment.  

I believe that the reason Savages aren't more popular has nothing to do with their potential accuracy, but everything to do with the fact that Remmys have a bazillion aftermarket parts available, and about as many experienced smiths that specialize in them.  Kind of like the "popularity" of the standard 1911 .45 automatic.  It just has such a huge market share that it just makes sense to build on it because of available parts and smiths.

Before anyone jumps on me, and you know you will, I am not slamming Remmys, I just feel that if Savages were given the same super-treatment that remmys get, both from the factory and from the aftermarket, they would have a much larger following.  $1000 worth of Savage (factory rifle + $600 in upgrades) would probably outshoot $1000 of Remmington 700 most days.  The problem is FINDING the $600's worth of upgrades available and a smith able to do them.  After the trigger and your own stock work, things start running dry.

Good luck,

Andre

Andre <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Friday, January 11, 2002, at 23:36:19 (ZULU)

 Choate and timney both make after market trigers and stocks respectively. 56 bucks from midway for the trigger. As for the stock,

I'm going to install a steel rod in the forend of the Savage stock and fill the whole thing with either glass or JBweld. I think a Garand style leather cheek pad would be a nice touch for getting my mellon up off the factory plastic. Pachmyer decelerator is a must. I'm considering a brake (I know it's not tactically sound). I've recently had back surgery and recoil is a B**ch. I'm glad I dont have to worry about being tactically correct. I do have access to a 800+ meter range at up here and intend to make plenty of smoke and thunder this summer.

Festus out.  

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Friday, January 11, 2002, at 23:58:23 (ZULU)

I just took a look at the new reticle. Very nice. Any idea how long the turn around time will be to install it? I'm not going to be able to make it down your way while you have it but if you say it's a good upgrade I'll definately take your word for it. Now all I have to do is come up with $175. :)) I've been sick as a dog for the past 2 weeks and haven't been to the range at all. I really want to get there soon too because this being sick has made me crazy. Hopefully this week. Drop me a line the next time you hit the range and I'll see if I'm free.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 00:06:24 (ZULU)

Like the new reticle. Making it hard on a guy to keep up with the Lito's.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 01:05:51 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 02:39:18 (ZULU)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 02:42:19 (ZULU)

Another view on neck turners.  The Sinclair and K&P are for the benchrest set, as are all of the hand turners (you hold the cutter in one hand and the case in the other)... but these guys think turning 50 cases is a big deal!   Which is true... on these tools, turning 100 cases will give you a serious case of Carple Tunnel Syndrome.

If you have a hundred or more (I did 1,100 pieces of 6mm BR cases last winter), then go with the Forster.  It is fast, and accurate to within 0.0005" or better, and you can trim the case length at the same time.

When the cases are finished, they look like they have been turned on a lathe (which they have!!)

Remember that when you outside turn a case, it will need to be annealed or they will split after only a few loadings... and maybe split on the first shot, as the turning work hardens the brass.

-

FireDude...

Premier's turn around time is about two days... they are EXTREAMLY fast.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 02:48:34 (ZULU)

My vote: Keep it up.

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 02:59:56 (ZULU)

"Are the old Mark4 M3 6x cams interchangeable with the 10x M3 cams?"

I just bought a Mark4 M3 6x and would like to know the same thing.  Anybody help us here?

Jerry

Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Balto, MD, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 03:21:09 (ZULU)

-

Bradd... drop me an e-mail, and tell me about the "looseness", and I'll tell you if it's normal, or how to fix it!

-

6x MK4-M3 cams... I donno.  I've seen them and they're marked "6x", and I assume that there might be a difference, or they would just be marked with the bullet style like the others... I will check with Lupita on Monday, and get back to the board.  They are lovely scopes for an M21 (hint)!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 03:45:10 (ZULU)

Please keep it up. There are a great number of us out here that appreciate your succinct and cogent remarks regarding the global SITREP!

Michael

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 03:53:32 (ZULU)

I don't have the $ to buy a tumbler right now and I need to clean my brass before loading it.

Any help would be mucho appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 04:03:38 (ZULU)

Okay, I've just caught on to the gen2 mildot thing.  Is it glass or wire?

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 04:04:05 (ZULU)

Don't stop. I enjoy your news links and your opinion on current events. Now that doesn't mean I want to take a warm shower with you or anything.

Hawgs,

I must say, that GenII has me thinking. I really want to see one at the range. I am hoping somebody shows up for school with one soon. I want to do some ranging with it.

Semper Fi,

Finger

Jim Reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 04:24:11 (ZULU)

Agree with you on the MK IV 6X M3...great scope. Mine appears to be clearer than the 10X models. Works beautifully on my M25 Geogg Corn built for me.

If you have a chance to pick up one of these...DO IT!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 04:33:53 (ZULU)

Since I am going to start reloading soon I have been learking around net.  I am sure this has been discussed before but I haven't been able to find it.  

My question is why did the Military go with R15 over Varget?  It seems to me that most everyone I have talked to loves Varget, what gives?

I would love to read more info. on the military testing that went on, I read the article on Allients website but it wasn't very indepth.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 04:51:01 (ZULU)

Hate the term "cam", we haven't really seen cams since the ART and ART II scopes. There, a power change would definitely make a difference, as zooming in (or out) not only did your ranging, but also cammed the back of the scope up (or down), and therefore corrected for drop (more or less). Cams were specific to cartridge, as are BDC turret caps.

But with the BDC turret caps (as opposed to cams), the same cap works from 3.5 to 10X, for example.......why in the world should there be a difference between 6X and 10X?

'lito, let me know what Garth has to say. And get busy makin' that carne!!

Was watching Fox News this morning (MST) and saw Nathan Chapman's funeral service. May God bless our troops.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 07:37:49 (ZULU)

Go to Sinclair at www.sinclainintl.com and find a product called Krazy Kloth. You can search for it under that name. It comes in a little plastic egg and works great on cleaning brass up. It's only about $2.95 each so you could buy a few to have them on hand to until you get a tumbler. When you do look for a tumbler check out www.midwayusa.com They have tumbler packages where you get everything you need and it's around $80.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 13:35:22 (ZULU)

You don't HAVE to clean it before loading it, though it's nice.  Aside from "Krazy Cloth", and Forster makes a similar polishing cloth, there is Iosso Case Cleaner.  It's a clear liquid that will get the oxides off of the brass, and also desolve the black powder residue out of the inside of the case.  I use it mixed half strength, and it workes fine.

http://www.iosso.com/

-

CDC... have you gotten the message yet?  If not, lemme put it this way.  You stop, and you are in deep doo-doo!  :))

-

Nicholas...

The decission to go with RL-15 was not the military's.  Lake City is run by sub contractors that are hired (because they are the lowest (bidder), to make the ammo... when Dupont ran it many years ago, they used stick powder (IMR-4895)... when Winchester ran it, the used ball powder (WC750), now that Aliant (the old Hercules Powder Co.) is running it, they are using Aliant's powder, which is RL-15.  It's OK powder, but burns Pig dirty... patches come out black as hell for the first few, cuz Aliant uses about 5% polyester in the powder for a stabilizer, and it leaves tons of ash.

Varget can't be used, because the company that makes it is in Austrailia, so they can't bid on running the Lake City Plant.

And of course Alliant is going to claim that their powder out performs "Varget"... what do you expect them to say...

"Our powders don't perform as well as the "Extream" powders, but it's the best we can do!" ;))

-

Bruce...

>"... but why would a "cam" for a 6X scope be different from one for a 10X,"<

I'm not saying they are... but I have seen the cams for the 6x, and they are marked "6x", and the other's are not.

There's that leetle cautious voice that says "Why would they mark them differently, if they are the same?"  SO... Since I don't know for sure, I'm not going to say they are the same, 'til I hear it from the horsie!

The term "cam" is slang, and easier to say than "Bee-Dee-Cee Turret cap", just like IBM is easier to say than "International Business Machines"... even the guys at Lupita call them cams... EVERYBODY calls them "cams"!

Lotsa slang words in shooting that aren't technically accurate, but everybody knows exactly what they mean.

How about .45 Auto... nope!  OK how about 1911 auto... nope!  OK how about 1911 semi auto... nope!, OK, how about 1911 self loader... nope (you have to load it).

OK how about "Hey Bruce... can I borrow your Model of 1911, Colt's patent, recoil initiated, spring activated, self feeding from a detachable box magazine pistol?"   Yup, There we go, I think that's got it!! ;))

Of course, we could talk about "Mil-dot range finding reticles"...  lemme see... they aren't mildots, cuz they aren't a mil big, and many of them aren't even DOTS (especially the one's on those rascally Mildot Masters)... and they don't range find (you have to do that yourself), and... ;))

-

Gooch... it's glass with anti-reflection coating on both sides.

-

>"... a huge warehouse full of Dillon Loaders and equipment to make cases, primers, etc.,"<

Sinister, DUDE!!! Stop it!... Your makin' me breath funny!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 14:36:17 (ZULU)

Historically, the US provided lots of war materiel to our allies in the last World War (rifles, pistols, machineguns, ammo, artillery, explosives, ships, aircraft, etc.).  We became "the Arsenal of Democracy."

If we're building it for our forces, we expect to have a North American production base (either US or Canada).  Which is why FN makes M16s, Minimi/SAW, and M240Gs in South Carolina; why Beretta makes M9s in Maryland; why SIG builds M11s in New Hampshire; why MK 211 Raufoss ammo for .50s is loaded by Winchester, under license.  Limited amounts of foreign gear is bought and stockpiled (HK and SIMRAD stuff).

Hodgdon VARGET is Australian Mulwex 2208, and not made in the states (neither are Lapua or VihtaVuori components).  If we want ammo loaded with the stuff it has to be under contract, knowing it may not be available in wartime (Black Hills).

The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is a GO-CO operation (Government Owned, Contractor Operated).  Simplifying it a thousand times, imagine a huge warehouse full of Dillon Loaders and equipment to make cases, primers, etc., that belong to the Army.  You hire a contractor to run it all (including making or buying the components) to produce ammo to your standards (MILSPEC).  Military inspectors check the product at the end of the production line before acceptance and shipping.

====================

Nate Chapman served as a sniper/observer during his overseas tour.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 14:58:33 (ZULU)

As Emiril says "happy happy happy", Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 15:07:01 (ZULU)

Dnnis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 15:12:59 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020112-11500059.htm

Pakistan is politely informing us that we can leave our bases there at any time.

The Indians, the militants and we are all putting pressure on Musharraf.  One of the three have to give.  India has big conventional superiority.  We're the by-God U.S. of A.  If we stick to our guns, the weakest link is (are?) the militants.  

This report seems to support that view.  Musharraf cracks down on militants and is set to crack down harder:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-asia/2002/jan/12/011202294.html

Busting big al Qaeda plot in Singapore:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-asia/2002/jan/12/011202283.html

Details on al Qaeda's Singapore plot.  Note that our intel came from the A'stan intel motherlode.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34200-2002Jan11.html

You can bet that similar intel is being used to set up hits on terrs all over the world.  

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 15:14:49 (ZULU)

Dave,

You want to clean your brass and make it look new?  Go to the grocery store and get a jug of C-L-R.  Soak the brass in this for a little while.  

CDC,

I read most of the articles.  The links are much appreciated.

To all you Savage dissers,

I camouflaged the barrel nut on my Savage.  Since you can't see it, the Savage now looks as good as your Winchesters and Remingtons;-))

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, 20191 - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 15:26:38 (ZULU)

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 16:14:55 (ZULU)

Keep it up.

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 16:22:00 (ZULU)

Please DO NOT STOP posting the links. Sometime it is all I (and probably a few others) can do to catch up on the roster, and hit your links for info. I think we are looking and absorbing the info but not commenting....You're kinda the "intel gathering branch" of the Roster.

Keep Up The Good Work!

Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Recil deprived, PA, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 17:58:11 (ZULU)

I was looking at the Iosso cleaner, but did not know if was and good, or using a phosphoric acid solution.

I think I have C-L-R here at the house I will give it a try on some nasty brass before buying the Iosso.

Again thanks for the info

Dave

Dave <dhgrog@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 18:01:08 (ZULU)

You're absolutely right (Dang, THAT HURT!!).......we all use slang terms.

Just make me cringe when I hear the bubble-headed blonde (with a room-temperature IQ) on the six o'clock news talking about the recovered gun at a crime scene having "a clip full of bullets". Best was when she described a sawed-off shotgun as an "assault weapon." It was a weapon, and I guess it was used to assault somebody, but the dogs ran out of the room at my reaction.

Let me know what Leupold says, I'm curious about that one. I just want them to mark "10X" on the power selection ring on the 6.5-20X scopes, just to reduce the phone calls I get!

At least when you talk to that horsie you get some good info. I have talked to others and learned that I was conversing with the other end of that particular animal.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 20:34:29 (ZULU)

The worst thing I heard the media say is "The man used a semi-automatic revolver to commit the crime".  

News reporters are the most crooked low down rotten people I can think of.  Well at least everyone of them I have seen on TV is!  I don't even watch the news anymore because it infuriates me to see what they are doing to the society.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 21:04:13 (ZULU)

A semi-automatic revolver is nothing to the crap you hear on the floor of congess.  Feinstein stated that "We must include Bolt action assault rifles in this bill, or we have done nothing to address this problem".

'lito (hidin' my M70 assault Varmint riffle)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 21:33:13 (ZULU)

Mark A Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 22:13:55 (ZULU)

CDC I dont have to watch tv anymore thanks to you and that is a very good thing.

Talkin to a bloke last night who was driving on a road near a major power plant not far from here and he saw 4 vehicles being driven by men with beards wearing tubrbans.One occupant per car.This hopefully means nothin but given that these installations are completely vulnerable and are crucial components of life as we know it in this part of the world, and that there is a jihad goin on against the U.SofA AND ALLIES Im lettin my paranoid side out a little.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 22:19:18 (ZULU)

If that was a "semi-automatic revolver" it had to be a Webley-Fosbery.

Tell that reporter I'll be happy to buy it for $500........the last one I saw for sale was over $3K, and it didn't last.

That crook must have bought it before I could scratch up the funds!

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 22:53:22 (ZULU)

No one should depend on these links for the news.  The material is too narrowly focused.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, January 12, 2002, at 23:50:17 (ZULU)

Does anyone know of a 1000 yard range within a reasonable driving distance of the Chicago area?

I have some nice rifles but nowhere to use them.

Any help will be GREATLY appreciated.

Mucho Gracias!!!

Bob <rvl@inil.com>
Chicago, IL, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 00:15:34 (ZULU)

Sorry, it was a S&W if I remember right.  They showed a Picture of it and everything.  lol  

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 00:16:57 (ZULU)

After deciding to get back into shooting real rifles; I’d been having a (sometimes heated) debate with myself over whether to go bolt or semi-auto. I was leaning towards a bolt rifle based on the fact you can get a pretty nice, complete rig for the price of the Springfield Armory Starter Kit (just the rifle without so much as a sling).

Seems Spousal Unit made the decision for me. She went out on her own and ordered a S.A. SuperMatch M1A for me for Christmas. The new stick hadn’t come in by 12/25 so I got an I.O.U. (one Springfield Armory, etc…) under the tree. I don’t need to tell you fellers how annoyed I was. Not only does Spousal Unit exhibit poor planning by not ordering sufficiently in advance to insure Christmas delivery but (and this is unforgivable) she gets the wooden stock model. She’s lucky T2 of 2 (aka The Child of Destiny) is so fond of her.

But seriously, I figure she’s a keeper. I’m still wracking my brain trying to figure how she came up with the idea (a really fine one). She knows virtually nothing about firearms so I can only conclude that after 22 years she still listens when I rant. Now there’s a disturbing thought!

I picked up the rifle on Mon. and T2 went in for surgery on Tue.. What with recovery and rehab I’ll be lucky if I can make it go BOOM before spring.

Question: does the Douglas stainless barrel need the same level of break-in as a standard barrel or are they pretty well “finished” when they ship?

Hey! Let me put you guys onto an amazing product. I have NO affiliation with this company; I just can’t keep a secret. Not specifically shooting related but it’s one of those products that once I started using it I couldn’t understand how I ever lived without it.  It’s like that third hand you’re always looking for.

http://www.dycem.com/gripindex.html

The website has technical specs and data. I’m told Rosterfarians enjoy technical specs and data.

Semper Fi,

Tom

T1 of 2 <t1_of_2@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 01:19:55 (ZULU)

Just hit the miracle mile and take out some of the indigenous population!  ;)

Bradd Douglass <bdoug0@yahoo.com>
Marietta, GA, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 02:59:56 (ZULU)

Larry Wollner <lwollner@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, Good old US of A - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 03:03:37 (ZULU)

Reading wind - The primary method to read wind should be mirage (heat waves).  This technique is the best way to get a "true" wind read.  Watching clouds, "feeling it on your face", seeing a flag someplace in space, all will give you a false read if not careful.  Reading mirage through a rifle scope can be just as bad if you see the heat coming off the barrel.  This is like "feeling the wind" at your location.  At long ranges, you location is probably wrong.  If you are by yourself, place your spotter scope just below your non- shooting eye so that you can glance into it with minimal movement.  Read the wind, hold for the wind, fire the shot.  IMMEDIATELY after the shot go to the scope and see if the wind changed and screwed you.  If not then look for a follow on wind read.  When looking at the mirage, watch all the environmental activity as well so that you can start to associate them wiht the mirage you see.  Also grass, leaves, branches, trees, and people walking at a 45 degree angle will give clues as to the wind.  Put this into one gut feeling wind call, do not change it, and shoot it.  If you continue to do this then your mind will learn the wind quite nicely.

Mike - I like that, if sitting in a cloud. :-)  Of course the range would be somewhat limited.  :-)

Bill - Zen we are.

Jim Reifinger - I'll be there with 4 others from SOTIC.

Festus - Why the cheek pad?  Most do more harm then good.  Set your jaw line on the stock and then allow the skin to bunch into your cheek bone as you seettle on the stock.  This is the part of the face that is supposed to meet the stock, not your cheek bone.  If you do this, you will find that you do not need the cheek piece and it is more relaxing on the head for recoil.

A quick warning on the 6x scopes that guys like to go to for the low power.  Nice under a lot of circumstances, but you will be hurting if the range is over 300 to 400 and the the target is camied.  very hard to see and you will be using a reference point hold given to you by your spotter.  Remember that your target will be almost half the size in a 10x scope and I have had problems spotting a target that my observer can see at 600 with his scope and I have a 10x.  Just a quick warning.  Personnally, I would not go lower then a 10x for a general purpose scope.  If you are working exclusively close up and non camied then good to go.  Otherwise I would look to a variable power to give both high and low.

Bruce - It would take an old fart to remember the Webley-Fosbery.  It was a handful to shoot and came out just a spec too late.

Reporters - They are too stupid to look up information and thus repeat the garbage that the producers put up on the little tele prompter thing for the stupid.  I figure any group of individuals that call actors heros, when in reality the actor is an individual that is so insecure that they live in a make believe world, is too stupid to understand the reality of the world.  Yes, I yell at the TV.

Long one, sorry guys.  Hold Hard and have fun.

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 04:11:48 (ZULU)

Yeah, my wife won't watch TV with me anymore.  If it's news on, I'm ranting.  If it's some show, well, I'm ranting and/or pointing out safety rule violations and poor gunhandling.

.22 Country...that new remington 597 feels SOOOOO good in my hand,  The stock is just excellent, especially the grip.  Any idea whose stock for a Savage 110 is built like that?

I am going to try and get that Swinestein quote posted at my local conservation club.  They are the ones who just shoot trap league, banned full-auto at the range, look down on military style guns, and don't do shit to fight any legislation because "it's just the evil guns, and nobody should have them anyway".  Well guess what.  They are coming for your deer rifle next, then shotguns.  We need the "sportsmen" (insert smirk here) to get involved.

Jeez look, I am ranting.  I better sign off!  I am preaching to the damn choir here!

Edited to say thanks to CDC for the intel, and G.W., I don't think what you are describing with the nuke plant would go over around here.  :-)

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 04:16:37 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$MQMX4XQAAEDC5QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/13/wmush13.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/13/ixworld.html

Unpleasant conditions of "battlefield detainees" at Gitmo.  Sun, mosquitos, heat, humidity, dog cages, 24/7 flood lights and armed Marines watching their every move.  We're doing what we have to do to make 'em give up intel, but Anmesty International is appalled.  We'll use this intel to roll up the networks.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$MQQZD5AAAEDHZQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/13/wtal113.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/13/ixnewstop.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 04:27:04 (ZULU)

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 04:32:09 (ZULU)

DRS <huntersun@conninc.com>
., NC, - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 05:18:22 (ZULU)

Feinstein.  The same woman who looked at the MP-5 in the picture of Elian Gonzales and said, with a straight face, that it had a hundred round magazine.  Why did she not only have to come from my state, but also my city.

Alan Wong <usmc308@hotmail.com>
S.F., CA, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 05:28:55 (ZULU)

Don't feel bad. I come from the land of the Hildebeast and Chuck (Where's the camera?) Schumer.

"... 'til I met a man who had no feet."

T1 of 2 <t1_of_2@hotmail.com>
New York, NY, - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 06:27:06 (ZULU)

It would take another old fart to know what a Webley-Fosbery was.

In use (unofficially) with the British Army 1914-1915.

Put yer teeth in the glass by the bed, have another pull on the Geritol bottle, and call me in the morning.

Just remind me who you are and why you're calling.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 06:40:52 (ZULU)

Masters Rick & Bruce - Webley-Fosberry mit Maxim Shalldampher? like the Nagant Wheelies? Damn now I'll fossizing too. heh-heh

Varget-Did someone say Varget??????????

BEHAVE!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 12:05:04 (ZULU)

Just a quick medical update and some comments...

Recovering well from carpel tunnel surgery. Hand doing well, but still a bit sore and discolored. Stitches come out the 18th. With luck I'll be functional and ready for the local sniper match at Douglas Ridge mid-February...:-)

Rick, thanks for commentary on the 6X's. Love mine and will keep it on my M25. It's not my primary rifle, so no big deal. Appreciate knowing the shortcomings. Both my bolt guns wear 10X's...

New project: Acquired a premium barrel that is fluted, 24", threaded and short chamered for a Remmie 700 in .22-250. Am looking for an M700 short action. Going to make a live varmit gun. Ckeck out the trajectory of the round to 600 yards with 55 grainers...almost identical to the 6.5 X .284! Should be fun...

All for now...can't wait to be able to type with BOTH hands.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 14:59:44 (ZULU)

Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 16:00:11 (ZULU)

Mark A Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 17:43:56 (ZULU)

I beleive the leather cheakpad for the Garand is not to raise your eye to the scope, but rather to offset it for the M84. Help me out here guys. The M1C cheakpad offsets for the side mounted scope right?

Lost,

KEB

Kevin E. Beggs <BeggsKE@raytheon.com>
Somewhere, Overthere, Maybe here - Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 18:08:04 (ZULU)

dk

florida <bohica999@hotmail.com>
Florida, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 00:10:30 (ZULU)

The Parker Hale comes in steel and aluminum.  It requires an adaptor, because it only fits on a "spigot" that sticks out of the front of the stock, or a palm stop adaptor that fits in a rail on the bottom of the fore end .  It is a prone bipod.  The Harris bipods that will let you shoot from sitting, won't work from prone, and the Harris bipods that will let you shoot from prone, won't work for sitting... life is full of decisions.

You would be far better off with a prone bipod on the gun, and a pair of shooting sticks (Buffalo sticks, "X" sticks etc).

-

After a 3 month wait, the 300WM "Riffle from hell" came back today with a new barrel, and it is very nice... one test group of 10 shots in 0.31".  Now I gotta Teflon it again, but that's life.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 00:21:05 (ZULU)

You FNGs quit mentioning VARGET.. the little Ninja guy will come out of the clock and call for lightning everytime! It turns his crank on his powder measure and lets him out!

Geoff; I been trying to change minds on gun control for lotsa years now. You can't get anywhere unless somebody threatens to take THEIR wallet or THEIR wife, mother, sister, brother's virginity.  Then they want 3 UZI's in shoulder holsters and a couple flash bangs just to go to the post office! Shoutin at the TV is alright though! Give em hell!

Well said or should I say wind well read....Rick and from you they will believe it!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 00:27:31 (ZULU)

I haven't used an actual PH bipod, but I've played with the Versa Pods a bit, and I found them to be too unstable.  It has no provision to lock the bipod in place and the rifle has a tendencey to cant.  You can't leave the rifle unattended for this reason also, as the legs are long and it may fall over.  It's something that could be overcome with practice, but I'm already out there trying to remember to Hold Hard, so that'd just be one more thing to have to check.  For the $80 prize, my choice is Harris for prone and sling for sitting, though one of them fancy sniper saddles would work great too.

'Lito,

glad to see you got the 300wm back "Early".  Sounds like it'll live up to it's promise with groups like that.  Breaking out the teflon oven again huh,,, maybe you can make some special Sniper Country Rock candy after the tube comes out ((;  

Followed your step by step instructions today, with only one slight deviation, a camfer.  I'm working hard on a 12 step program concerning step #2 ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 00:41:14 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020113-6553688.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37409-2002Jan12.html

Kissinger on Iraq.  I recommend that you read this with care.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34680-2002Jan12.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 00:41:47 (ZULU)

Tom B.

Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 00:50:12 (ZULU)

Three months ago I called BH and asked.  The 6.5x284 is loaded with Norma, the new 308's are loaded with Winchester Brass.  All my cases are in the 156gr Range and are very consistent, so you'll have a bit more volume than with FedGMM cases.  I have 4 firings on some of mine, and I'm getting consistent .6" groups at 100 off a bipod, no case sep or slitting so far.  Most here could do better with what I have, as I still can't shoot fer shat, but it's sure fun learnin..

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 00:56:38 (ZULU)

I had a Parker Hale bipod on my AR10 and had real problems shooting groops because the Parker Hale is a floating bipod (you can easily change point of aim over a big area) as compared to a Harris which is more stable. I like the harris better and need to sell Parker Hale Charlie

C harlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
ann arbor, mich, usa - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 01:02:18 (ZULU)

Looking for a load to give me 2600fps, but don't have any way to clock my loads.  Mayhaps someone has the same setup and has come up with a pet load?

Savage 10FP, .308W, Lapua brass, CCI BR-2 primers, Varget powder (Actually our ADI Mulwex 2208 which I gather is the same),  Sierra 168MK pills

cheers and beers

Steve

Oztralia

t303 <sjwhitby@iname.com>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 01:05:00 (ZULU)

Every gun is different but 42.5 to 43 grains will get you 2600 fps in most any 308 witha 22' or longer barrel. In most guns you can go with a much hotter round if you would like.

Tom B.

Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 01:23:37 (ZULU)

Make that 22" or more barrel. Those 22 footers are to hard to carry.

Tom B.

Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 01:30:10 (ZULU)

The US Army's first battle against the North Vietnamese Army in the Ia Drang Valley, RVN, 1965.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/we_were_soldiers/

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 01:36:04 (ZULU)

Two recent photo captions in the Austin paper - probably as they came off the wire:

Caption: Marine manning a MG

Fact:    Marine manning a belt-fed grenade laungher (with no belt in place

Caption:  Soldier inspecting a gun turned in by an Afghan

Fact:     Soldier looking through the tube of an RPG launcher

With such a large portion of our population never having been in uniform (other maybe prisoner orange), and a growing percentage having never handled a firearm of any type, the press can say anything they like about anything which looks like it might expel a projectile and never get called on it.    

A very small percentage of our legislators are veterans, which leaves them prone to making stupid, criminal, or near-traitorous votes on defense matters.

This is a sad state of affairs, IMO.

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, TX, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 02:45:53 (ZULU)

I heard that the memory was the second thing to go, can't remember the first. :-(

You are right about the Brit army, but they are a little late sometimes with firearms.  That should get Peter L. cookin.

Kevin - You are absolutely correct.  That cheek piece was designed to displace the head to the left so the shooter would maintain a stock weld with a side mounted scope.  The scope at that time was not the M84 however.  During the time that the cheek piece was first made there were a couple of scopes used and Catshooter knows them all.  The M84 didn't ocme out until the 50s if I am not mistaken, again Cat Shooter?

Florida - Keep the Harris and never ever look at that over priced piece of horse scat again.  That should get some comments going!

Thank you guys for your kind comments on my babblings.  You know how to keep an old fart happy.  :-)  

Cat Shooter, a nice pill maybe?  You are making me wonder on the zinger.  Still waiting on the return of the tables, will make up basic ones if necessary.  Hey ask Gooch, I sent him some data on that round several years ago.

Got to go guys, Hold Hard and stay Safe!

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 02:48:17 (ZULU)

>Two recent photo captions in the Austin paper - probably as they came off the wire:

If you liked that, you should have seen the front page of the San Antonio paper today...'Black Hawk Down' Movie relives Marine firefight in Somalia.

HUH?

Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 04:12:32 (ZULU)

Charlie - I like the PH 'float' - it allows it to adjust better (in my mind) than the Harris.  My guess is you did not have consistant pressure and would load it at inopportune times.  That and the stupid springs on the harris seem tolike leaves and grass too much - plus the PH comes off and on nicely.  BLAH BLAH BLAH - guess you see what I have EH.

Who is all in for the SHOT show???

Kevin of the GWN <cantac@shaw.ca>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 04:15:57 (ZULU)

A'stan sitrep.  Some Afghans are suggesting a greater committment of our ground forces.  This has some information on the difficulty of cornering remaining al Qaeda.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$NLUAIUAAAFESDQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/14/wafg14.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/14/ixnewstop.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 04:31:57 (ZULU)

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 05:34:34 (ZULU)

Now a Question:

I have a Winchester M70 in .300WM bought in 1989. I reload all my ammo, and have not had any problems till this year. I buy factory new brass, (right now Winchester)and neck size only. Necks are annealed and I get about 5-6 loadings out of them. My problem is the current batch of brass is on it's 3 reload and just neck sized they won't go into the chamber. I know it sounds crazy cause they were fired in that chamber, but I had to full length resize them to get them to chamber. I am confused, anyone have any ideas, Lito, anyone!

No I havn't taken it to a smith yet, I get better advice from this list than any smith I know up here in the boonies. Thanks for any help!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 06:45:09 (ZULU)

I need some help. I have a very good friend that just moved to Salt Lake City. He is looking for a job in the firearms industry. He is an accomplished machinist. Does anyone know someone at LAR? He lives just down the road from their factory. Maybe a name for a POC? Anyone.. anyone... Buehler?

Thanks,  Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 06:48:16 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 09:13:18 (ZULU)

If you are looking for 2600 fps, then 42 gr of 2208 (Varget) will put you there, but remember that this is a pussy(Cat) load and max is quite a bit more, around 46 to 47.

-

On the Parker Hale bipod... they are WAY over priced.  I got mine cheap at a gun show, and wouldn't pay new price for one.  It sits on the 50-BMG cal riffle, cuz it weighs over 40 pounds, and the Harris collapses under the weight (and recoil)... but for the typical 15 pound sniper rig, the Harris is the way to go.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 09:17:14 (ZULU)

Ok, I got e-mail this morining from Brigit.  I know you guys know her.  She's really a nice girl, just a little mixed up. ;-)

Ref: SHOT Show

I'll be there with bells on.

Ref: MGM Targets

Andy and I went out yesterday in a snow storm to break in some new steel targets we got from an outfit in Idaho.  One is a full sized IPSC with a T-Box cutout in the head and a 5" circle cutout in the chest.  The other target is a baby pepper-popper on a spring.  What a hoot!!!  Andy would open the door on the t-box and I'd close it back and forth.  That little pepper-popper would really dance when you hit it.  All armor plate with no damage from our .308s.  Really well made stuff and loads of fun.  By the way, how can it be muddy and freezing cold at the same time?

Ref: National SWAT/Sniper Symposium

Who's going?

Oh, well gotta go pack.  I've got another road trip ahead of me.  Happy-Happy, Joy-Joy......

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 09:44:22 (ZULU)

 Thanks for the info on the cheek pad. As we speak I've done the one thing that any savage is begging for. Timney trigger on order...Approved by Dept of WAR...Will let you know how the triggerectomy operation goes whenit gets here.

 Does anybody own either a choate sniper or varmint stock for a short action savage? Am looking to pick one up for cheap. I looked at one on a 700PSS and it was ugly enough to work.

Festus out.

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, up, north - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 11:33:09 (ZULU)

 Thanks for the info on the cheek pad. As we speak I've done the one thing that any savage is begging for. Timney trigger on order...Approved by Dept of WAR...Will let you know how the triggerectomy operation goes when it gets here.

 Does anybody own either a choate sniper or varmint stock for a short action savage? Am looking to pick one up for cheap. I looked at one on a 700PSS and it was ugly enough to work.

Festus out.

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, up, north - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 11:33:11 (ZULU)

Am having trouble with the DR and Emporium accepting my posts.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 12:19:42 (ZULU)

Found a nice Rem 700 SA Sunday at the Eugene gun show. Price was fair and it cleaned up well. Barrel comes off Tuesday and we will fit my flutted heavy barrel .22-250 to it. Now I need a stock to put it in...

Will probably put it in a Laminated would stock and pillar/glass bed the same. Any suggestions from you gents? This is going to make a super sexy live varmit rig...

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 12:35:17 (ZULU)

'lito,

This is not entirely true.  I think it may depend on how you work your brass otherwise, so it may not be an issue for everyone automatically.  I have hundreds of .308 cases, all neck-turned, some with more than 8-10 loadings on them, and I've never lost even one for any reason.  But in my case, I use a collet-type neck sizing die, so that may make the difference.

Andre

Andre Peterson <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 13:40:50 (ZULU)

Those sound good... please write them up with some photos, and address' and make an article.

-

Andre...

There are no "Hard-fast" laws with brass... but I had (have) 1000 pieces of Rem .222 Mag brass that were neck turned and loaded for a Prairie Dawg shoot in the 80's that never came off, and they sat in a case for many years.  Took them out to pull the bullets and load them with the newer design V-Max's, and 20% of them were split just sitting there, and 50% split when I started shooting them to work up loads with Benchmark... after anealing, none of them split.  But your milage may vary.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 14:05:50 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020114-78659763.htm

Musharraf cracks down and radicals move underground:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40823-2002Jan13.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 14:12:48 (ZULU)

Which is why the admonition to reloaders should be: Cheack your brass carefully while you are loading it.  You don't want to discover you've got a split neck the hard way.

On another, more amusing note:

I was shooting a couple of weeks back, testing my new Wylde Thing, and saw a guy with a REAL sniper's weapon:

It was built on an M70 in .300 win mag.  It had a bipod AND a leg on the buttstock to make it a tripod.  It had a Nikon(?) scope that was just HUGE and was night vision capable. AND (here's the best part) it had a spotting scope mounting on the rifle right next to the sighting scope!  This yahoo claimed to have spend over $7000 on this pig...er I mean "rig."  "His 'buddy' shots 3.5" groups at 1000 yards with HIS identical one."

The verdict: He shoots very nice 5 inch groups at 100 yards (no typos of missed zeros in that last sentence).

Truth be told he was having some problems with the fact that the red-dot in the scope was covering up too much of his target making it hard to aim.  (I nod, knowingly)

So just when you think that you've got the perfect sniper rifle worked out...

:-)

You know, it seems to me that when you've got a $7000 rifle that inevitably draws a peanut gallery when you shoot it, you ought to be able to be less than embarrassing when you do.  Don't you think?

Too bad Moe missed being there that week, or I'm sure he could have added his two cents as well.  You only get to see something like that once or twice in a lifetime.

Andre

Andre <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 14:34:04 (ZULU)

 Just a suggestion but if you can you should make a Ackly improved out of the 22-250 I have had both over the years and love the Ackly.

It is a true 500yd varmint round. They are more accurate and very easy on brass. You just use swift loading data for starters. If you can find a Remington laminated stock like on the newer varmint rilfes they make a nice looking rifle and feel great when shooting. Good luck with the new project.

lito'..

 Whats the skinny on the 300WM?? Did you have trouble with it?? I must have missed it, what happened??

Rick..

 Good info on wind calling, I make my best calls on my first SWAG if I start to second guess myself I am usually always wrong.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 14:37:27 (ZULU)

And if this shooter happens to be on this board (unlikely), please ask some advice and learn to shoot a standard rifle and scope first.  You're only embarrassing yourself and impressing morons with shooting the one you have.

Andre

(who always enjoys the range-clowns)

Andre <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Warm place, FL, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 14:45:43 (ZULU)

Interestingly enough, Pat, I have access to a .22-250 Ackley Improved reamer...this just keeps getting better and better.

Can't wait until I've got two good hands, again!

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OE, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 15:26:57 (ZULU)

James is ex SF, Recondo Instructor, LAPD and many more things (Just ask Rick). He is probably the best field tactics instructor I have met and a legend in SF.  Words of most of the SF guys who I ahve met that know James, not his.  He teaches you land navigation, tactics and gives you a winning smile LOL

Me I just teach how to shoot with Ginsu Knives in your knees.  A week back and an ex wife who shoots at you daily.  Sorry wrong story.  Me I teach the long range shooting aspect.  What to buy and what not to buy.

Next Pablito/Catshooter, damm sounds and looks like they have a winner on the scope and reticle.  Had a little tear in my eye.  I hoep you can now talk them into making it MK4 Tuff and US Optics clear.

Take care

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 15:49:45 (ZULU)

"Interestingly enough, Pat, I have access to a .22-250 Ackley Improved reamer...this just keeps getting better and better."

You've done more projects and cycled through more rifles in 6-months than I've done EVER!  I'm jealous!  

BTW, isn't "Varget" the generic for "Viagra" ?

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 15:56:57 (ZULU)

When I got the 300WM, it was nice and new, so I tefloned it, and steel bedded it into that Sand & Spinache M24 stock you gave me... loaded up some H4350-SC, and on the first two rounds, the bolt handle would come up, but had to be hammered back with a rubber mallet (for you newbees, that's a VERY BAD SIGN ;).  The load wasn't hot, but not whimpy either (64 gr/H4350-SC/190SMK), and the cases looked all scratchie up (also a VERY BAD SIGN :((

So me and the 'smith look inside with one of those cool borescopes, and YUCK! All kinds of tool marks, and the throat wasn't too pretty either (but the test groups were good!).

So I sent it back, and there was some arguement about how it must have been at this end, and we said, "No way, fuzzy Jose', it came that way"... and they say "No, it was your fault" and we say "Is not", "Is too", "Is not!", "Too", "Not!"... well this goes on for a few weeks, and all of a sudden, they call up ond day and say "You get a new, pick of the litter, best of the best, hand inspected barrel!"... and it came in on Saturday.

Turns out that a finishing reamer may have gone and commited Hari-Kari in that chamber, and the pieces were flushed out with the chamber chips in the cutting oil, so it wasn't caught... and with the low power target test loads, it didn't show up, but with regular full power loads, the brass flowed into the marks and grabbed, and the problem first surfaced.

The new barrel is Beautiful...

-

Andre... I gotta get me one of those mounts for the spotting scope, a wind gauge, a compass, a GPS, and a sterno stove for the MRE's, to put that stuff on my riffle, cuz I'm tired of humping an ALICE pack around!!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 16:16:49 (ZULU)

  Glad you got it worked out with them!! Those can be really bad deals when they think their right and your wrong.

  Also wanted to add that I have neck turned lots of brass (Mostly a clean up, taking 2/3s of the case neck) and not had any necks go bad except after about 10+ loadings then they will start to show up once in awhile.

 Was your 222mag a tight neck?? I had a couple of tight neck rifles and because the brass was so thin they would crack more often than normal to my way of thinking. I also had a 222mag that had a lot of case seperations and cracked necks. I think it was just plain bad brass. It really shot well though and I finally reamed it to a .223 because brass got so hard to find.

Wes..

 You won't be sorry, trust me!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 17:10:26 (ZULU)

Wes - What do you estimate for barrel life of your new 22-250 (provided you don't go to a pd town daily)???

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
akron, ohio, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 17:23:24 (ZULU)

We had a real busy weekend on the street. So much for crime going down. Job security.

I stopped by the shop to check on my new stick and drool on it. I think that new stock is really going to be functional. If you haven't seen the Sub-minute Solution Stock, I will put the link here for you.

I have always been an A1 stock fan, and never really liked the big fat ones with external knobs and stuff. Remember, I live here in the "wait-a-minute vine" capital of the world.

A 20" Chandler is going in it, so it will be compact for movement. I am not a "bells and whistles" type guy. This concept is very funtional and simple. Should be an excellent LE rifle. I know that a few here on the Roster are also building rifles with this stock for themselves.

This stock has all the stuff that adjusts or locks it either inside or recessed. Set it, lock it, put some tape over the cracks and it's slicker than snot for movement.

I guess I am excited about this stock because I had some input on it. Paul Gallager, the person who approached McMillian about making the stock (and funded it), was one of my civilian students at Blackwater. After listening to the Chandler brothers, a few others and myself talk about funtional stocks for police and military, Paul decided to try and make these ideas work. Paul is also donating money from each stock to the Army, Navy and police relief societies. Nice jesture.

I know it won't be for everybody (nothing is), but is worth a look.

By the way, I am not making any money on this stock. I just like it.

http://sub-minute.com/

Semper Fi,

Finger

Jim Reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 17:41:26 (ZULU)

During WW2, The standard issue rifle of the US Army was modified to accept a scope, for sharpshooter service. The first "scoped" M1 rifle actually fielded for service was the M1-C. This employed a scope mount which was drilled and tapped into the left side of the receiver.  A leather pad was laced onto the butt of the stock to provide the proper offset to align the eye with the plane of the scope.  The leather cheek piece was carried over to the later M1-D variant as well, which employed a metal sleeve on the barrel as the point of connection for the scope mount.

The scopes employed with these rifles were the M81, M82 and M84.  Best I can gather, the M81 was used late in WW2, with the improved M82 and M84 hitting service nearer Korea timeframe.

The M1-D variant does not appear to have been used in WW2.

The rifle fielded as a stop-gap measure while development of the M1-C progressed was the 1903A4, scoped variant of the iron sight equipped 1903A3.... a pre WW1 era rifle which was redesigned just before WW2 as the easier to mass produce 1903A3... the A4 was a rifle off the 'A3' line which was test fired, found to be accurate, and stamped differently on the receiver...

The 1903A4 rifle sported a Redfield Jr base (common in civilian production at the time) with 3/4" rings and a Weaver 330C scope on top... the military designation M73B1 was stamped on scopes produced under military contract...the initial runs were made from civilian parts and thus lack the military nomenclature on the scope...

All scopes mentioned, including the M84, are crude by today's standards...(In my opinion).  The M73B1 is the worst of the lot.

If any of this info is inaccurate, please let me know so I can update my understanding of the topic...

Note - I am in the process of rebuilding an M73B1 scope... the crosshairs are a nightmare...anyone 'in the know' where parts for this unit can be had, please drop me an email.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 18:21:08 (ZULU)

Finger, aka. Jim

I've been trying to get the people at sub minute to answer my mails about that stock for 6 months....  Could you give a rundown on how much it is and what the wait is??  I must have sent 5 or 6 emails, and the one response I got, the guys was gonna mail a price list to my home, but it never came.  Looks like an excellnt stock, but Ineed a little more info..  If you can work your majic It'd be most appreciated.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I'ved learned how to Cook Cat..., - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 18:25:30 (ZULU)

I know that the first shipment of them came in here early last week. I don't have the cost yet, but maybe Norm Chandler Jr. can tell you or find out for you the info you need. He talks to Paul on the phone.  

nchandlerjr@ironbrigadearmory.com

Hope that helps,

Semper Fi,

Finger

Jim Reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonvile , NC, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 18:39:13 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40823-2002Jan13.html

Collecting tissue samples and finger tips to identify the dead at Tora Bora.  Some serious observers think bin Laden is dead.

http://www.observer.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1501,631972,00.html

Other observers think he is in Pakistan.  If so, his support network is under attack.  Al Qaeda is dispersing.

http://csmonitor.com/2002/0114/p1s2-wosc.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 19:25:56 (ZULU)

DS arms makes an adaptor, it's 29.95, the part # is 625-RA, you can reach out to http://www.dsarms.com/accessories.htm to see it.

I point this out because I spent hours on the internet trying to find just this item and almost gave up, almost.

I've only just ordered the adaptor so no comment on quality, fit, etc.

Later

chris hickson <chris1insight@msn.com>
renton, wa, usa - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 19:43:03 (ZULU)

I am at a site where workers are housed in trailers and the site is subject to periodic attacks, mostly by rifles etc.  We have sandbagged around them and used steel plating to protect against direct fire.

The guerillas have now started using grenade launchers to attack the workers in their containers (trailers).

Any suggestions on overhead cover aside from simply moving everyone into bunkers?  

How effective is chicken wire draped over the trailers against rifle grenades etc?

If the chicken wire will force the round to explode, is the explosion just overhead more lethal than letting it hit the roof first?

Please, comments from people who have actual experience on this issue and thanks in advance.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 20:29:17 (ZULU)

Ref: Good Book

I just put into the first hotel of the trip and was listening to Stephen Hunter's latest book on tape.  I'm only half way through it and didn't want to stop driving.  It's great!  "Pale Horse" or something like that.  I picked it up at the library this morning.  Guys, it's a hoot!!!  It just gets better and better.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 21:13:58 (ZULU)

Jon Beardsley, great to talk to you on the dog and bone and finaly put a voice to all the words, didn't mention half the things I wanted to say to you, but we can chat about guns n shooting soon enough, right I better get back to the wife and kids because its the wifey's birthday today, catch you all later.

OH, yards v metric,,, at some point some one said" there has got to be a better way than living in these cold damp caves"

regards Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
some where in the North Sea - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 21:30:12 (ZULU)

On more serious matters, for people using Vitha N550, i am getting great results with 167 grain moly-coated Lapua scenars behind 48 grains of the for-mentioned n550.

My Win HBV is now shooting an average of 3/4 Moa (2cm groups) with the smallest 5-shot group measuring 15,4 mm's (-7,62= 7,78 mm)

(sorry guys, i am as un-inched as Pete L, dunno what it is in inches exactly, my guess is 0.6 of an inch?)

Still would advice on the N100 series, longer barrel life.

Smaller 5-shot groups than this are out of my reach, but the Winnie might be able though.

Still wondering what guys like Lito and Wes do to get 0.3 inch (?) size groups...guess my shooting skills have reached their peek?

Torsten,

thanks for the winter biwak excercise, liked the recce-patrol, it was great walking with a G3 scoped with Nightvision, only man, almost had forgotten howmuch a 7.62 assault rifle weighs during a 6 hour patrol...arms are still hurting, guess we have been spoiled getting used to 4 kilograms diemaco's, hehe.

The G36's sure were noisy during a night excercise, guess it was the sling attachments.

Sorry i couldn't stay the whole weekend, but had other appointments to keep up.

Hope to cya soon on a shooting day,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 21:38:28 (ZULU)

Just sent Jefe' a message with comments/notes from my FM 5-34(Engineer Field Data) handbook. Should help him out.

Know his feelings...have been rocketed, when above ground, and it was NO PICNIC. Something about not being to shoot back makes a feller feel REAL vulnerable...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe

Major, USMCR(Ret.)/2502(Combat Engineer)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 21:43:08 (ZULU)

Don (and others thinking about using a 20-inch barrel to 1,000), I don't think it'll cut it past 800 yards.  Ask Rick -- I think he's been seeing some short-barrel work at Bragg.  I think you'll do OK to 800, but then that bullet's going to be going trans-sonic and will be wobblin'.  Only so much room in a .308 case, and I don't think there's anything gonna be able to get a 168 or 175 to 2650+ out of a short tube, especially in the summer.  I may be all wrong (I don't shoot any of the 500-series Vihtavuori or other slow and double-based powders).

Trying to keep a 7.62 bullet supersonic at 1,000 out of a 22-inch M14 is one of those voodoo black arts.  I don't think you can get a 155 Match King going 2900 fps unless you have a 28-inch tube with 46 grains of Varget.

Gav, try www.sinclairintl.com and look at the Wilson neck-turning tools.  Much better than hand-turning on a K&M or Whitetail.

Ozzie Steve, Varget IS Mulwex 2208.  Kinda like crawdads are supposed to be yabbies(?).

Rob Opp, an advert for Redding body-sizing dies:  ...with Bushing style neck dies available, (body-sizing dies) are the perfect companion item... Body dies are designed to full-length resize the case body only, bump the shoulder position for proper chambering, but not size the neck at all.  They are made without any internal parts and are intended for use only to resize cases which have become increasingly difficult to chamber after repeated firing.  After using a body die the case should be run through the neck die to achieve proper neck tension."  "SMALL BASE Body Dies are intended for use in firearms with custom chamberings that cut tighter than SAAMI specs.  These body dies size the body and the shoulde but do not touch the neck."

Jeff, agree with Kev.  If you can put the chain link out on engineer pickets, the object was to have the RPG fuze function out a couple of feet from the object you're protecting.  That way the plasma jet and frag/spall coming off the shape charge is farther away from the target it's trying to penetrate.  Try 5-7 feet.  Once the RPG takes out your fence, GET OUT of the conex.

Kev, waiting on that Spicer book and Cold Zero from Amazon.

Guys, I think George Gardner's GA Precision and Badger booth should be the Rally Point for SHOT Show, huh?  That way as drunkards sober up and can get back to the hall there's a central touch-base ('course George will have to shoo all the snipers away, damn bumz).

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, January 14, 2002, at 23:19:57 (ZULU)

Found a scope, need the Badgers. You guys wanting to get rid of a set of standard height rings and a Win short action base, give me a hollar. Would rather have used since I will be putting my professional camo job on this one also. Can't have a shiney barrel sticking out when the aliens invade.

The porn emails are getting interesting. Must be momma's milk or the vitamins in the new formula cause they didn't look that way when I was a mere child. I fear some of these "children" are being picked a bit too young which really burns my ass.

Somebody send me the poop on the Vale, NC Eggshoot date. Can't find the link anymore. Where's Al O. when you need him?

Time to clean some reels and wrap some rods. Need $ to support the habit.

Glad to be home safe in the castle, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, January 14, 2002, at 23:20:24 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 01:12:53 (ZULU)

thanks for the info on the Sub Minute Stock.  I appreciate all that helped me both here and off the Roster.  Haven't spoken with Norm Jr. yet, but seems like this will be on the expensive side for an HTG.  But, with the limited quantities avilable, and it being basiclly a custom piece, it's probably well worth the money...

Oh, just kidding on that monstrosity being my rifle... ;))  I'd have definatly gone with an 68mm ATN instead of a red dot.

Bolt,

You gonna keep us in suspense, or let us in on the glass you chose.  (Or did I miss it?)

'Litosan,

Thank you for todays lesson.  My next purchase will be a grammer book ((((;  Hope your returned words of wisdom made it home safe.. if not let me know... I'm having them framed.  BTW, I'm in stage 2 of my 12 step plan...

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat..., - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 01:21:22 (ZULU)

Got a couple of questions on the Leupold M3. First is there anyone who will make me a custom cam if I supply the data? I assume I could just give them the number of clicks from a 100 meter zero. I don't know why Leupold doesn't have more cams available as a special option. Seems if they had all the popular loads covered they could build a big following.

Also what model/height rings do I use with the M3? I have a long action remington 700 and will be using badger bases and rings.

Does anybody glue their scope covers onto the scope? A couple of years ago while hunting in Colorado I lost my rear cap (Blizzard brand) and it really was a pain in the axe. If you've ever hunted during a warm day with lots of snow you know what I'm talking about.

dk

florida <bohica999@hotmail.com>
Florida, - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 01:32:06 (ZULU)

Check these guys out for the custom turret caps..

Armament Technologies

www.armament.com

or

Kenton Industries

(805) 531-1018

Kenton@msn.com

You can use the standard rings with either M3 scope.  If it's an M3LR, you'll need at least a 20 to 25 MOA base, and the MK IV M3 uses a flat base because it has 20 MOA internal "taper" built in. If your using a MKIV M3, the badger may come back and bite you in the ass when you try and zero at 100yards..

Wish Badger would come out with a flat base or a 5 moa base that has the same pattern as their other unit.

On the scope flip caps, you ever try using 100mph tape??(Green Military Issue Duct Tape) It's not quite as permanent as glue, and sticks to just about anything that's not wet when applied.

Though I'd save you the trouble this time Catshooter.. ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat..., - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 01:52:30 (ZULU)

The egg shoot in Vale is usually the first weekend in April.  They open the "range" the entire week prior for practice.

florida,

For custom cams for the M3, contact Kenton Industries (805-531-1018).  The company is in California.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 02:00:13 (ZULU)

One layer of sandbags should beat frags.  The metal penetrator is a whole new generation-supposedly.  But then, you did ask about rifle grenades.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 02:06:40 (ZULU)

62 gr. bthp .22's with? I'd like to build some varmint busters for grins and see if I can get the Chrony to 4100+ fps. Also, does anyone have a good load for this so I dont have to waste time and money on powder I dont need?

Thanks,

Festus

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
way up north, frozen, tundra - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 02:31:50 (ZULU)

Jefe, I went to MOUT school and don't recall them even touching on protection from M203 type munitions. The chicken wire was just for handie grenades. The chain link sounds like a cracker jack idea. It would protect from both RPG and rifle grenades. But it maybe time to dig a living area in the hillside.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 03:40:23 (ZULU)

Pfizer Corp. (NYSE PFE) announced today that VIAGRA will soon be

available in liquid form and will be marketed by Pepsi Cola (Pepsi

Bottling Group NYSE PBG) as a power beverage suitable for use as-is, or

as a mixer, under the name, "Mount And Do".

Pepsi's proposed ad campaign suggests: "It will now be literally possible

for a man to pour himself a stiff one."

Enjoy....

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 04:15:27 (ZULU)

Protest to whom?  Are we going to be tut-tutted by a mixture of America-haring Leftist Europeans and human rights paragons like Syria and Cuba?  Go ahead and issue a strongly worded statement.  We'll keep it on file.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$NGKJ3RQAAA3SVQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2002/01/15/wafg15.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/15/ixworld.html

"Fourth International Socialist" (i.e. Communist) site says "Hooded and shackled throughout a 27-hour flight from Afghanistan to the Caribbean, the first Taliban and al Qaeda prisoners arrived January 11 at the US Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where they will be detained indefinitely in conditions which are clearly subhuman and illegal."

Beats the shit out of the Siberian Gulag.  Read your own history, Comrade.  

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/pows-j14.shtml

If these seventh century yokels would have minded their manners at Masir e Sharif, they would now have more pleasant accomodations.  I'm fresh out of sympathy.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 04:31:02 (ZULU)

 I think the prisoners at Gitmo should be the best fed in the world.

Chicken cordon bleau, Filet mignon, Bacon double cheese burgers, Pepperoni pizza, Sausage pizza, Pork loin. BLT's and the such. If they dont want to eat that's their problem

FESTUS OUT!

Festus <Festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 06:02:53 (ZULU)

Just scored a like new H-S Precision Rem 700 SA stock for my like new M70. Project is coming together. Remmie short action, flutted Stainless heavy barrel, and will chamber in .22/250 Ackley Improved. It's not only gonna look sexy, it's gonna be a perfect coyote and sage rat buster!

Getting a woody just imagining it!

Am going to put a Redfield 3x9 on it for now until I see what I want at a later date and for initial testing.

Try not to hate me to much...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 06:06:28 (ZULU)

 I wish I were that lucky. But a 3x9 redfield? oh the humanity.....

I hope you put some really nice glass on top. I'm still paying for my last scope so I know where you are coming from.

Festus

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
way, up , north - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 06:16:16 (ZULU)

 Been a couple of places in my career where chain link was every where. Didnt much care for the thought of what might come just prayed real hard it did'nt

Festus

Festus <Festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 06:28:45 (ZULU)

Wonder if wifey will notice a new press.probly not if I paint it blue like the old one.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 06:32:38 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 09:03:23 (ZULU)

 Once again you are savin' my bacon with the Dept of War. She is a little put out by this whole thing. I wish I could afford a stealth but they are over 700 bucks here. Info you the 134th SFS ( Security Forces Sq.) uses a 10FP as a field gun. They put a way better barrel on it but did'nt make that much headway in performance. Once a Timney trigger was installed, it started winning comps. I talked to their armoror and he said the trigger was the greatest single upgrade for the cash. I'm going nuts waiting on mine to come in.

 As for the .22's their is a source of custom bullets available from my smith but they cost as much as factory ammo and require work. I did'nt know they had been discussed some time ago. Sorry bout that.

What is your rifle background? I'm new and learning the whole long range thing. Active Duty AF, grew up in farm country. Been holding a gun as long as I can remember but never any really long range stuff before. Had fun with an 8mm Mauser a few times.

Festus

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage , AK, - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 09:55:33 (ZULU)

Water boils at 100° Celsius and freezes at 0° Celsius

1 Liter of Water weighs 1 Kilo

A cube measuring 10 x 10 centimeters will hold 1 liter of water weighing 1 kilo.

1000 of those cubes will be a metric ton. also 1 cubic meter and a cube will have a side lenghth on 1 meter, 1000 meters are one kilometer.

man that is so easy.

you fellows must be real smart to work with that pound, inch, mile, gallon and fractions thereof. to much for me

but no wonder your bitching. a friend in florida told me once, what is easier to remember 1 pint of OJ or 0.4??? Liters.

As long as you dont change the size of the packaging to full metric decimal standard youre fucked and it will always be strange.

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
g3land - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 10:49:10 (ZULU)

I don't think Marty or George will have a booth.  The word is they might be hanging around the CZ booth.  There will probably be a message center near the registration desk.  We'll have to noodle this one.  It sure would be great if we could all get together for dinner one night or whatever.

Ref: "Cold Zero"

The author is one of the featured speakers at the SWAT/Sniper Symposium this weekend.  I brought my copy and will try to get an autograph.

Ref: Parachutes

There was a show about the history of parachutes on the History Channel last night.  As might be expected it was great.  Imagine a free-fall from 100,700 feet.....Yikes....-90F...terminal velocity was supersonic.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 11:02:23 (ZULU)

I spoke to the "horsie" yesterday, and the cams for the 6x MK4-M3 are NOT interchangeable with the cams for the 10x MK4-M3.  The reason being the the threads on the elevation shaft are not the same.

-

torsten...

>"you fellows must be real smart to work with that pound, inch, mile, gallon and fractions thereof"<

Well... actually, we simplified it a lot.  Remember that we're decendants of the Gunea, pound, shilling, 'hapence, ferlong, and fortnight!

I'll take 0.07213 liters of dark rum, and 0.03106 liters of lime jooce... see we can be flexable ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 12:42:01 (ZULU)

'lito

I am still reading like mad, may never finish, but what else is there to do at 3:00 in the a.m.

S. Ashcraft

S. Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 13:19:55 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 14:06:00 (ZULU)

Kevin,

Go by the Nikon booth, Steve is going to be there, and he says to come by and see him. My leave from work got cancelled so I get to stay in Oklahoma. I have all the luck !

Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Oklahoma , USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 14:33:14 (ZULU)

  Little over a year or so ago Pete and Yote Bait and I did a lot of discussing about short barreled rifles shooting to 1000yds. Pete was even trying to get Remington to make a STR in a 260.

 What we came up with is a 260 will shoot to 1000yds with a 22" barrel with no problems pushing a 140 or 142 at 2600+fps. Tony Y. has even built a short barreled 6.5-06 and really likes it. I never got a chance to try a 308 but my reloads with Varget are 2800+fps using a 168 out of a 26" and I am sure that these would also shoot to 1000yds with no problems out of a 22" barrel.

 I know every rifle is different but I only lost about 70fps going from a 26" barrel to a 22" on the 260. I also think the 22" is the best of both worlds for a tactical rifle. I see no need to ever go shorter. The 22" balances pefect for a HB rifle and is easy and quick to handle. I don't understand a need for a 18 or 20" barrel. The 22" will do anything they will only better. Just my thoughts on the subject.  

Kevin..

  Whats Hunters new book about??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 14:37:42 (ZULU)

I tend to agree with you on 22", but I went with 20 because I still get good velocity and accuracy way beyond any practical LE ranges, and I also have mine threaded for a can. I wanted to get it as short as I could, so when I put the can on, it wouldn't be stupid long in an urban or woodland hide.

I must tell you though, we got suprisingly decent performance at the grand with these 20" guns.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 14:54:53 (ZULU)

My chrony shows a very surprising spread between 2670 - 2710 fps over the six months I've been collecting data (very, very slight primer flattening). The Rifle sits in an HS precision stock from a Rem VS and is about to have the HS precision mag conversion done. Very nice balance and feel.... kick is a bit stiff while prone but a sorbothane pad should make it workable...

in short...I like it A WHOLE BUNCH!!!!!!  Simple and practical.

Tony Y was my partner for last year's Sniper's Paradise competition... his 22" 6.5 x 06 had considerably less elevation dialed on while trying to hit those tiny little hanging metal targets way out at 700+ yards.  Impressive at distance ... and the gun shot well too.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 15:25:48 (ZULU)

The short 20" Krieger HVB fluted 308 1/11 twist that I'm working on currently shoots 155 Lapua's, 168 Bergers and 175 MKs sub moa (tack driving them all at 100yds) but tends to group better with the 175s at 300 yds.  I haven't chrono'd the 20" with the 175s yet but it's shooting 43.6 grs of IMR4064 with good consistency at I would guess about 2640fps +/- a little.    I don't think I will have any problems reaching 1000 with any of these loads and staying supersonic.  As far as a lite balanced rifle goes, it was when I started out(A3 stock, 10x Mk4 M1 with Badger base and rings) but now has gained a little when I changed to a USO 3.2x17 58mm and added a Robar M14 mag conversion with a steel floor plate.   It's beginning to bulk up a little like me but it still feels balanced.   As far as the 1000 yd data goes I won't have any info on it until this spring.

I don't see any tuned 20" 308 having a problem out to 1000 if the shooter does his/her part especially with 175s.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 15:33:52 (ZULU)

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 15:54:01 (ZULU)

BS, the current generation of RPG-7 warheads use a tandem shaped charge, there is no EFP or SFF that'll do anything like 10x diameter.  In fact, most of the absolute best shaped charges will do maybe 7-8x warhead diameter in real life, due to all sorts of environmental things that badly effect rockets.  Some of the newer shaped charge use a DU liner in order to better defeat composite armours and reactive armours, but they give up effeciency to copper liners IIRC.  Doesn't matter because DU performs better IRL, which is what is important.  SFF's don't have near enough performance to beat frontal armour on a MBT, but they do tend to be much better vs reactive armour, and they have much better behind armour effects.  This is important, since most SFF's are designed for top attack, where reactive armour is one of the only mass effective solutions.

Sabots:  I've got 30-06 sabots that use 55gn BT's at 3950fps and shoot into 1&1/4" groups at 100yds.  From a pre-64 M70, no less.  I use lots of H335, about 58.0gns, and get lots of flash.  It sounds like a mortar being fired.  Don't really see the need for something like this, I did it as a novelty.  M855 projectiles do tend to punch slightly more steel than the full bore M65 steel core projectile at 90 degrees, but I think that the full bore 30caliber projectile will have better real world perfomance against sloped targets.  As well as much superior terminal effect.  Actually, the 165gn steel core at 3100fps from a 300Win Mag  is better still.  I'm in the long lazy process of testing my theories regarding this.  It's cold out, and getting away from work is a PITA.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M      

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 16:21:23 (ZULU)

  Would have to agree with you on the 20" with a can. I wouldn't want one any longer than necessary either. What loads were you shooting when you shot at 1000yds with the 20" 308???

lito'...

  Did you say that Premier will also put the "New and improved" mil dots in a 4.5x14 tactical with a 1" tube??? Thanks!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 17:35:15 (ZULU)

At first Dick said he would do the 1" tacticals... you might want to call, cuz he's a bit overwhemled with the "dingleberrys" that are asking him to put it in everything Leupold ever made... man, the retail end of guns can make you old real fast!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 17:56:00 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 18:30:36 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 20:43:54 (ZULU)

Your question on what ammo I was using at the grand with the 20", it was good 'ol 175 Black Hills. Jeff Hoffman hasn't let me down yet. Maybe when I retire, I'll get into the reload stuff. It cuts into my beer drinking time too much.

Hey all,

After all that harrassment I got about carring an AK in my patrol car, I got me a new toy today. A little Bushmaster carbine, and I had a ball with it today. Guess I'll have to buy some toys for it now. Let's see, I need a light, three point sling.........

Semper Fi

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 21:25:54 (ZULU)

"Pale Horse Coming" is about Bob Lee's Dad in the early '50s.  He gets caught up in a prison farm in ol' Miss. and then.....well I don't want to ruin it.  I just finished listening to it on my drive today and it was a lot of fun.

Bobby,

 I'll look up Steve for sure.

Going downstairs for a drink....It's been a long day already and I'm whipped.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 21:59:24 (ZULU)

Cause i received his tactical sling today, and it really works great.

Prone shooting is like shooting from a bench!

It took some time before i got it, but it was worth the wait.

And Mike has done alot to make sure i received it, he even threw in a muzzle mitten for free, because of the long wait.

I can highly reccomend it for anyone who uses a long range rifle.

Mike, pleasure doing buiseness with you,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 23:56:16 (ZULU)

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 00:14:17 (ZULU)

Buy the Lapua 170's. That is a lock base bullet designed for extreme long distance. I don't know where you could find a better deal.

Tom B.

"Nice Shot"

Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 00:19:01 (ZULU)

Just finished loading some more of my pet 308 load for Sunday.  Last time I was out I had two targets that I put 3 holes inside a 3in stick on target at 500yds.  Who says that 1moa adjustments are too coarse!

Out

TonyM <TAM308@aol.com>
FL, US ofA!!! - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 00:32:49 (ZULU)

Got the package.  Everything is great.  Only sorry I took so long to get that Mildot Master. Sooooo easy!!!!  The front plate looks fine.

Thanks

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 00:33:52 (ZULU)

http://www.larrywillis.com/

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 01:51:00 (ZULU)

I have a small hole Colt M4 upper and an SP2 large hole lower.  The small upper hole can't be enlarged because there's not enough "meat" to remove without causing structural damage.  The large lower lugs need to be filled and redrilled.

The guy I was going to use (probably the best in the business) doesn't want to do this type of work anymore because of the time it takes.

Anybody have any suggestions?

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 02:52:01 (ZULU)

Have you looked at this part from Bushmaster for about $7.00?

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/lowers/nes-06.asp

Some of the guys from 19th Group (Utah) modded their Privately-Owned Weapons (CAR-15s) and guns confiscated and transferred (for free) from US Customs.

The pin lets you put a military upper on a big hole lower.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 03:05:33 (ZULU)

Dave, that's what I'm trying to get away from.  I have one right now holding things together.  Does an admirable job at that.  But it's a bitch when you want to open her up (the gun, the gun)! :-)

I want to use a push pin setup, and not need two silly ass screwdrivers that I'll lose in the bush.

My other field gun has the Colt Big Two Headed Screw pin but you can take it down with the base of a cartridge.  And it swivels smoothly.

The offset pin setup binds and you need a screwdriver to "wiggle" it into the correct closed position.  Way too much hassle!  :-(

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 03:48:47 (ZULU)

When the first Assault ban went into effect in 89/90(or close), Colt was not allowed to build AR-15s. So being adaptable they built the Colt Sporter including a 20" flattop A3. It has a Flash suppressor, but no bayonet lug IAW the new ban. ALL AR clone or milspec rifles were not bothered until The Clintons stepped in.

So have you considered buying a Sporter A3 flattop upper and changing out the bbl. They are common at gun shows and usually cheaper than milspec uppers of different brands.

THe only thing that sucks more than having a small pin upper on a big pin colt is to try and put a big pin upper on small pin base.

Email me if you have no luck. I know a guy with a colt upper who has your reverse problem. Wrenching them apart and exchanging would be the worst part.

Chief out

Chief <dwightc11@home.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 04:11:27 (ZULU)

 B-Square makes a reasonable one piece base for 110 and 10 actions by Savage. With a little work you can get some angled shims to add about 20 MOA for fun. Or you can pay a smith to machine the base to achieve the same effect for more money. As for rings, MK4 are plenty good for what you need. At about 130 bones a set.

Festus

"OLDE AGE AND TREACHERY WILL ALWAYS OVERCOME YOUTH AND INVENTION"

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
anchorage , ak, - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:20:19 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:38:36 (ZULU)

 It's worth it just for the brass and besides any good rifleman should be familiar with a few different loads. We shot some lapua

while back. It was better than most Federal loads in similar weights.

 I'd buy two or three boxes on a friday and have the guy reserve the rest pending a weekend at the range. That way you can see for yourself what I'm saying.

Festus

Festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, AK, - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:07:06 (ZULU)

On conditions at Gitmo:  All this whimpering and whining is breaking my heart.  Three hots, a shower, and a cot.  No duty whatever.  Tell a 11-B doing JOTC that treatment is "inhumane."

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:15:28 (ZULU)

There is always a jail in AZ they could take refuge in!

Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:30:05 (ZULU)

Alan Wong <usmc308@hotmail.com>
S.F., CA, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 08:33:29 (ZULU)

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 10:09:47 (ZULU)

Picked up my S&B 2.5-10x56 yesterday, bought it used for about $490,just need some rings and off we go.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 12:03:48 (ZULU)

If you want the best, D.D. Ross makes a base for the Savage long action. It is his 6-48 Optical Platform, and comes with 25 M.O.A. taper built into it. He does not make one for the short action, but I talked to him last night and he said that he will be coming out with one this spring (give him a few months guys). You can E-mail him at:

ddr2112@aol.com  (about $200.00)

Or read the review in IN REVIEW to get more contact information.  If you want some serious rings, Georgia Precision Shooters Supply at www.georgiaprecision.com offers Badger Ordnance MAX-50 rings for $135.00.  Serious stuff, but it won't ever fail you (not that the MKIV rings will, they are good too).

Out...

Kevin

Kevin E. Beggs <BeggsKE@raytheon.com>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 14:22:22 (ZULU)

For those looking for 1 piece Savage, as well as Remington, Mauser 96 & 98, Styer M95 and few others you might want to check out this site:

http://www.kenfarrell.com/cgi-bin/kenfarrell.cgi/index.html

According to the page all mounts are CNC machined and are available in 0 MOA, 15 MOA and 20 MOA versions in either steel or aluminum.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 15:34:04 (ZULU)

I'm going to have a little fun with your latest conversation.

Being a Marine (read superior male sub-specie)and a City Police Officer (same), we can deal with both systems quite well. We are a extreemly resourseful and very adaptable lot, and very amazingly can count with our hands full.

Now, my Deputy Sheriff brothers have been quite successful with the 10 and the advanced 20 method you spoke of. Of course, you can always tell when one of them has been writing a report. There is Crayola paper on the side of the road.

The State Troopers have been restricted to the 10 (or 101/2) method by their commands. It takes too much time if they use the 20 method, as a supervisor must then respond to retie their shoes for them.

Maybe that's why some states have their Troopers wear slip-on boots.

But, I love all my law enforcment brothers. When the shit hits the fan, nobody's counting and we don't see the different colors on the uniforms.

Just funnin,

Semper Fi,

Finger  

Jim Reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 15:54:29 (ZULU)

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 16:37:12 (ZULU)

Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Kalifornication, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 17:00:31 (ZULU)

   http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,43105,00.html

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 17:12:44 (ZULU)

If you've got a small hole upper you're trying to use, it may be more economical to just buy a new small hole lower.  You can get complete lowers for $250-300 range new (last I checked).  Probably less used.  You may find that to do the smithing involved would bring you close enough to that mark that just biting the bullet  (no pun intended) and going for a new lower that hasn't been screwed with is your better bet.

You COULD find a large hole upper and sawp everything over to it, but again, you'd probably find the cost to be close enough that you might want to just go for broke.

The issue of the non-standard pins in the Colts (in triggers, takedown pins, etc) is yet another reason to stay away from things marked "Colt," when perfectly acceptable alternatives exist.

I don't know if you might have pre-ban/post-ban issues to worry about.

Something to think about anyway.

Let me know if you are interested in Sunday.

Andre

Andre <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 17:33:24 (ZULU)

http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/news/Jan2002/a20020116sfawards2.html

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 18:02:58 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51681-2002Jan15.html

Some thoughts on bin Laden fearlessly fleeing to save his sorry ass.

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/robbins011602.shtml

Pete L:  Having 10 fingers serves as a reasonable basis for a number system?  Who's the cave-man now?  If anyone has had some knowledge of Real Analysis and would like to continue this off line, e-mail me if you absolutely must.  Frankly, the whole subject bores me.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 18:54:56 (ZULU)

Thanks to those that responded.

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 19:11:26 (ZULU)

Concerning the washpost link you just sent. That area the teams are going into: Basilan. It is a island that is mountainous as hell and full of thick canopy jungle. That is going to be a bitch to find anybody in and very prone to "Oh shit, they're right there" contact. I don't envy the teams going onto that place. It will be hard to have safe stand off for supporting arms support. SHADES OF NAM!

Semper Fi,

Finger        

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 19:16:21 (ZULU)

I'm looking to get a drag bag and would like some opinions and expieriences from all of you. I'm looking a 5 as of now.

The London Bridge Trading Co. Light Weight Drag Bag

The Eagle Drag Bag

The Blackhawk Long Gun Drag Bag

The Shooting Systems Group Bag (can be seen at http://www.shooterstore.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=66&Product_ID=4880&CATID=185 )

The Tactical Tailor Drag Bag sold by US Tactical Supply and can be seen at www.ustacticalsupply.com/cases.shtml at the bottom of the page for $225.

What I want is a quality bag that is padded enough to protect my rifle, will hold the rifle secure and protect the muzzle, has outer pockets to store gear, can be worn as a pack and will not fall apart after 6 months. Some of you probably have one of the above or have used them so any info would be of help. I'm kind of leaning towrards the Tactical Tailor. If you have any others let me know and give me a link to their site if you have one. Thanks.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 20:46:04 (ZULU)

I ran across this press release on the web the other day.  I'm very new to distance shooting, but this is a pretty impressive accomplishment, isn't it?  Has anyone used any of the equipment mentioned - Pearce rifles or Horusvision reticles, in particular?

Robin Bhatty

On January 30th, 2000, at Pearce Farms Private Shooting Range in Southern Arizona, Glen Pearce shot a 17.750 inch group at a measured 2000 yards with a 30 caliber rifle.  This is the first successful demonstration of accuracy at 2000 yards with a hunting rifle, scope, and ammunition.

   This dramatic example of long range accuracy was the result of a cooperative effort between Glen Pearce of Pearce Quality Rifles, Dennis Sammut of Sammut Reticles, and Dr. Dale Mosdell and Warren Jensen of Lost River Ballistic Technologies, Inc.

   The special J36 long range hunting bullets from Lost River Ballistic Technologies flew straight and fast.  With their very High Ballistic Coefficient and muzzle velocity of 3150 fps, they were super sonic well past the 2000 yard target.

   Aiming was made easy with the Sammut Reticle in a 4-16 x 50 Schmidt & Bender Scope.  After a 500 yard zero was established at 100 yards, no other sight in shots were needed.  The programmed holdover on line 13 of Sammut's Reticle was perfect.  In fact, the hold-over line with its wind hack marks made aiming simple.  "Boy, it's great not to have to crank any knobs," Pearce said.

   This combination of rifle, scope, and bullet creates a whole new class for long range rifles!

For More information contact us by e-mail  Lost River Ballistic Technologies

Robin Bhatty <pike2bishop@cs.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 20:53:44 (ZULU)

I just purchased a .308 Rem 700P (PSS?).  No Win 70 Stealths that I could find in Alabama.  Being a newbie, I thought I would have an "expert" at the popular local (overpriced!) hunting store do the scope mounting and trigger job.  When I got the rifle back I found that the ring mounting bolts were loose, as were most of the torx bolts securing the scope.  If they were left that way to adjust the eye relef to me, then they certainly forgot to say anything about it.  The scope reticle was also not aligned with the rifle.  I bought a torque wrench (Stanley Proto 0-75in/lbs. for about $123 for those interested) and did it myself according to Plaster's 'Ultimate Sniper' book and the mounting hardware instructions.  Cleaned the barrel according to my best take on the many and varied cleaning regimens advocated on the site.  The rifle is ready to start breaking in, finally.  But 2 details bother me:

1.  The rifle barrel does not look centered on the stock.  The gap running along one side of the barrel is much wider than the other side.  A dollar bill passed between the barrel and stock is very tight at one side at the front.  A problem?

2.  The battery compartment for the illuminated reticle on the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10 40mm M3 is tilted to one side when visually compared to the elevation turret.  I have read some vague disparaging comments on this scope model (I bought last year's model on sale).  Any comments on this particular situation or the scope in general?

Thanks!

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 21:01:21 (ZULU)

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 21:09:20 (ZULU)

Probably the cheapest way out for you is to buy a new upper receiver and swap over all your parts (bolt, carrier, barrel etc...). That way you stay with a preban lower. Bushmaster makes a pushpin for large hole uppers/lowers. Not the best looking setup- but it dies work well.

I am trying to remember the name of the company that is making new production AR large hole upper receivers. I have seen photos of the same and heard from satisfied customers. Less than $175 if I remember ..

If preban isn't an issue I agree with Andre-get a new lower. But I suspect it is which is why you wish to keep the lower. OPtion 3 is to sell that lower and replace it with a fenced Colt preban lower. You can install the correct takedown pin in these. Some even come predrilled! (2 of mine did.)

Andre- I for one have had excellent service from every one of our Colt rifles. All those in this area have excellent reliability also.

Can't say the same for other brands that you may know. Although, in fairness, two other brands (and a sub-brand)have performed well to very well also. We will stick with Colt.

I see a bunch of rifles come through every year. Never seen a trigger pin go yet on a quality brand. Its just a non-issue for 99% of folks. Thats my opinion-FWIW. As for the takedown pin- you are right on 100%. Its a pain in the ass. But since Colt is a military contractor-ATF can restrict them more than another brand who is not.

    But- knowing that even Bushmaster makes the different size pins as well as Colt- how many oversized pins have you replaced from being broken or worn out?

I would be interested to hear about actual first hand failures with the pins.

Thanks-Mike T

Mike T <riflemike@home.com>
- Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 21:12:22 (ZULU)

Matt

Matt K <Wadefishr8@yahoo.com>
Chattanooga, TN, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 21:19:33 (ZULU)

thanks Marius

Randy <rcollins@ob-one.com>
Lexington, SC, US - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 21:43:51 (ZULU)

Got the bumper stickers today, Thanks!! Now each one of my vehicles wear one.

Out,

TonyM <TAM308@aol.com>
FL, US ofA!!! - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 21:54:57 (ZULU)

Matt,

You will NOT harm your CM barrel with a brass/bronze bore brush.  Someone is feeding you an enormous line of crap.  CM is actually harder than stainless.  Cleaning has been beaten to death in the past and is in the archives.... spend some time in there.

Make an educated decision on what bore cleaner(s) you want to use.  Hoppes9 (perfume), Shooters Choice, Butches Bore Shine, etc.  Get a Dewey coated rod, a loop, jag and brush adapters.  Get a bore guide with a solvent port.  I buy all of my cleaning hardware from Sinclairs.  Norm Chandler (Iron Brigade Armory) sold me some great bore brushes several years ago that I still hoard for special occasions.  They seem to fit tighter than the .30 cal Sinclair brushes.  Do all cleaning from the chamber end of the barrel.  Use a looped wet patch to push the initial mass of crap (burned powder grains, primer glass residue, etc.) out of the barrel and wet the barrel.  Let it soak for a bit (two drinks, maybe sex, etc.).  Install a tight-fitting bore brush (a bronze one) and take one stroke for each shot fired, rewetting the brush periodically.  Wipe the rod off EVERY time it is removed from the bore.  Wipe the rod off EVERY time before you put it in the barrel.  Make this a religious practice.  Patch out grime.  Rewet and let soak again.  Patch out.  You are now looking for green or blue residue on the patch.  Should you have the dreaded green crud, let the bore cleaner sit in the barrel...sometimes I let it sit overnight if I've shot a lot of rounds (in excess of 60).  Factory barrels are notorious for copper fouling so you may need a copper cleaner like Sweets 7.62 or Shooters Choice BR Copper Remover.  Don't let the Sweets sit in the bore longer than about 12 minutes... something about nitrides and embrittlement of steel  blah blah.  Use a nylon brush to scrub the Sweets into the bore... after all it will dissolve the brass/bronze brush.  Or cheat and use JB Compound... ten strokes you're done!  My Hart barrels don't copper foul to the point anything other than Hoppes is needed.  My old PSS barrel was horrible...clean for a week and it still sucked.  Use a 45 cal pistol brush to swab out the chamber.  Wrap a patch around the brush to dry.  Or you can jury rig one of those eff'd up M14 chamber brushes.  Make sure you clean and dry the locking lug recess where the bolt cams into the locked position.  Some guys clean for three days running.  You can't believe the crap that comes out of a "clean" rifle.  I don't do this any more.  If the rifle is to be available on a moment's notice (duty weapon, school call, etc.), leave the bore dry.  If you are going to store it for a while, lightly oil the bore, especially CM barrels.

Above is just my way.  Ask a hundred  of us and we'll tell you a hundred different ways to do it. Develop what works for you.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 21:58:41 (ZULU)

Randy <rcollins@ob-one.com>
Lexington, SC, US - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 22:04:06 (ZULU)

I have the Big Eagle bag, and it's way too heavy and too bulky... weighs almost as much as the riffle.  PeteR has a nice bag that he wrote up in the articles section of SC, that is WAY nicer, and about 2/3rds the price, and opens up to be a shooting matt :)))

-

Robin... Please don't fill up this board with companies commercial advertisments... this is a talk board.

The Horus reticle... there are a lot of guys on this site that are current (or retired, or are re-cycled, or re-treaded) sniper instructors in the military-FBI, Federal Marshall service, and other agencies... if there was $0.01 of value in it, it would be owned, and discussed here... it is not owned by anyone with any experence... was discussed here last month... it is a looser.  Read the archives.

The Lost River bullets are machined out of a solid copper/bronze billet.  Lost River is one of the companies that lives on "Hype", and if you read their site, and know anything about ballistics, you will see through them quickly... the J38 is a copy of the excellent, old (still in production) "Bronze point", except that Rem had a lead core for expansion... solid bronze doesn't expand very well.  Their "demo" of a .375 mag rifle bullet is a water mellon... A WATER MELLON???

Gimme a friggin' break... you should see what a 22-250 will do to a water mellon! But that doesn't make it a killer...  How about a Water Buffalo or Rhino??

As to accuracy of 17" at 1.3 miles from a hunting rifle... HA! Without any sighter shots, Double HA-HA!.   These are the same guys that claimed a 20" group at 3000 meters.

Both of these companies cater to the guys that have a 10" stack of "Guns & Blamo" next to the pottie... the serious shooters pass them by.

-

William...

1 - This is common... you need to remove some of the metal in the aluminum carriage (the front only) and re-bed it with a good glass bedding compound like "Marine-tex", or Brownells "Steel-bed".  Rem won't fix it.

2 - The scope is not well thought of by those that have used it... not much else to say.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 22:18:20 (ZULU)

Just got back from the local hole-in-the-wall gun shop and uncovered a stash of Lake city "MATCH" white box M852 168gr. 220 rounds with the same lot #. The box says for compitition use only. How do these rounds  compare to the FedGMM? I haven't seen too much on them. If I can pick it up for 13 bucks a box, should I?

Questions, Comments, Concerns?

Thanks, JakeP

Jake P <Para13bp@gsinet.net>
NH, USA - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 22:27:24 (ZULU)

Any of you rosterhawgs think this is serious?

Rob01,

how are you doing?

About the dragbag, i got 2 of them, 1 official Dutch Issued for the Accuracy AWM .338 lapua magnum, and i got the Blackhawk one.

I like the Blackhawk one very much, it has a special bag on the outside for a camelbag, it can be folded into a carbine carrying bag, unfolded it can be used as a shooting mat (with special rubber on top side for your elbows), you can carry it by its handle or you can unzip the back pocket where the straps have been folded away to carry the whole thing on your back.

Furthermore it has a handgrip on the muzzle end so you can drag it ofcourse and there are small pockets for ammo storage. It protects the rifle really nice too.

There are some drawbacks though, personally i think he is to expensive and you do need a scopecover like the one from Eagle, cause due to the carrying system it leaves the top of the bag uncovered.

But i have been using it now for like half a year, and still no big complaints.

A mate of mine has the Eagle dragbag and it looked good too, more tactical without to much hassle stuff, kinda like my Dutch Issued one.

Goodluck with getting one,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 22:50:28 (ZULU)

thought so...thnx Lito

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 22:53:46 (ZULU)

Thanks for the insights guys.  Apparently, doing any kind of "fill and redrill" on these lower lugs is extremly time consuming and delicate work.  I talked to two very good AR "mechanics", including the one who USED TO do it but stopped because it drove him batty, and both recommended not to do it to maintain structural integrity and the lower's value.

My "problem" is I plan on suppressing the M4 upper and require the threaded barrel since I don't want it permanently attached.

I think I'm going to see if I can trade my big hole lower for a small hole from the guy I bought it from.  He tends to have a few on hand all the time.

The pin issue isn't one I've been concerned over either.  After ~10,000 rounds through my field gun, the "non-spec" pins still do what they're supposed to!  Love them COLTS!

The guy with the big hole uppers is "Daniel Defense" at www.ar15guns.com.  I considered getting one and building an M4 but I love them COLTS!

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 23:46:42 (ZULU)

A milspec barrel can be had at the gunshow for about $75 or less, and the barrel wrench for another $25.  That's $100 total, and you'll have the best of both worlds..  That would seem to solve your problem, unless you don't want to mess with the upper due to it's name recognition value.  When it comes right down to it though, you've already justified a complete new upper assembly.  You know that's what you REALLY want (((;

'Lito,

Do I see a coriollis effect discussion again??? ;))) Damn that twirlin' toilet water puzzles me.....

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've Laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat..., - Thursday, January 17, 2002, at 00:12:05 (ZULU)

On that LR M3 scope I think I heard from someone at Leupold a while back and they tilt the illumination system to light up the etched recticle better or were going to.  Seems some of the crosshair lit up some didn't.  Don't quote me.

Fitz.

Fitz <sfitzgerald@arpac.com>
IL, - Thursday, January 17, 2002, at 00:21:55 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on the bags. I'm going to stear clear of the Eagle on your suggestion Lito. I trust your judgement. Any other suggestions on one that you could think of?

Marco, I'm doing well thanks and how's things over there? I thought I saw that you were selling the PSG-1 is this true? If so why? I'll check out the Blackhawk bag with the fold out mat again. I saw that one but wasn't sure if it had the straps on the back and now that you said it does I'll give it another look but I have a few questions. How big are the pockets on the outside and how much padding is there? Pockets big enough for cleaning gear and a spotting scope? Also can you get a cleaning rod on the inside without a problem? Lastly does it have tie downs to hold the rifle tight in the bag? No more questions but when you find someone with the bag it's better than reading about it. Thanks again for the previous info.

Anyone else with info on the bags?

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, January 17, 2002, at 00:29:14 (ZULU)

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, January 17, 2002, at 00:35:31 (ZULU)

I just bought 3 pair of Danner boots from Cabelas: 1000 gram High County size 13EE, 400 gram High Country Size 13D and a pair of Sharptails Size 13D. I wear a liner sock and medium weight socks with the lighter boots and a liner sock and a heavy weight sock with the 1000 gram.

After I got them in the mail, I walked all over the house with all 3 pairs, up and down stairs, etc.. They appeared to fit perfectly. They are actually