January 22, 2001 - January 26, 2001

The Belgique and Belgique/Portuguese pistols are great. The FMAP (Argentine?) copies are OK, but tend to crack frames and slides during CQB MTTs (Mobile Training Teams) overseas. Will eat ANYTHING 9mm, except something with obviously green and grodey brass. SMG or +P+? Don't matter -- you can even mix them in magazines of light (115 grain) ball and Silvertips. (Kev, I think I have two cans of that Canadian 9mm SMG brass -- is it hard to get?)

The other neat ordnance besides the BLU-82s is the deep penetrator. Part of Saddam's command and control was/is set up underground, where a (big) surface burst doesn't even shift the dust five or six stories down. The Ph.D. big heads got together and figured it would take a long, heavy steel smart bomb or surface impact-firing rocket to penetrate deep enough for HE to get to the levels needed to crack a C-and-C bunker, but it would take too long (during the gulf war) to get industry to build tubes of high enough quality, and uniform enough to make the bombs.

A retired Army Master Sergeant said, "Hell, I know where there are railroad sidings full of the damned things." The big heads looked at him like he was nuts. "Watervliet Arsenal in New York has got these big 16" and bigger cannon tubes sitting in open storage outside, some as long as 40 years now."

So they cut these things to length, prop them up on their nose, and pour in liquid explosive slurry, which fills in all the air gaps and hardens as it cools. Slap on a laser/TV on the nose and a maneuvering fin set, and you have a post hole digger you gotta see to believe.

So anybody shot a rifle lately? Wes, that 6.5?
 

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 00:12:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.18.66)

I find the Stoney Point rig the simplest way to measure OAL when setting seating depth. Actually, you are not measuring OAL but measuring from the cartridge base to a point on the bullet ogive measured at a datum (0.300" for .308). Note that this will give you a consistent relative measurement, not a true OAL measurement. For our purposes, it is a very innovative tool. We are really interested in when the bullet engages the lands and that is the measurement that you will obtain using this tool. OAL is important for magazine length. Bullets with long ogives (Berger VLD, for example) may be set at .005 off the lands and still be too long for the magazine box. Conversely, your throat may be so long (newer Remington 700s), that you can not seat the bullet out far enough to be .005-.010 off the lands. The bullet is simply too short.

The system consists of a precision measurement attachment for your caliper (I use Mitutoyo dial caliper), a caliber specific insert that is locked into this attachment, a modified cartridge case in your chosen caliber and the two piece sliding gauge. Buy two attachments… that way you can buy the separate headspace insert also (0.400 for .308) and not have to keep swapping back and forth. The modified case screws on the end of the sliding gauge. Your chosen bullet is dropped into the modified case mouth and the apparatus inserted into your chamber. When you feel the cartridge case seat in the chamber, carefully ease the sliding bar forward. This sliding bar pushes the bullet out of the modified case until you can feel it come to a stop against the lands. Screw the thumbscrew down to mark the spot and withdraw the whole gauge. The bullet usually gets stuck in the lands so carefully recover it using a taped, coated rod. Replace the bullet in the case. The bullet is now in the same position in the case that it was in when it jammed into the lands. That should be your maximum seating length. The gauge can be used to monitor throat erosion also. BR shooters jam their bullets .010-.015 into the lands…. not recommended on tactical loads due to pressure spikes. Carefully measure the base-to-ogive length using the SP caliper attachment. Record the value and do the whole operation several more times. It takes a while to gain the right "feel" when pushing the bullet forward. When your measurements start tracking within a thousandth or half-thou, then you've got it.

You MUST use the same bullet or bullets for all of your measurements. I actually use three and average the measurements for average seating depth. Measure a new box of bullets and you will find that they have significant differences in length to the datum line. Somewhere I have the list from one box of Sierra 168MKs. The measurements resulted in 18 different piles of bullets, all having different base-to-ogive lengths. Pick one length as your standard. Some brands are more consistent than others… I only had three piles with a box of Berger 168VLDs. Hornaday 168 match were about the same as Sierra on QC. Sierra 175MK were significantly more consistent than 168s… maybe reflecting die wear in the long running 168MK production. Who knows. Sierras still shoot the best for me regardless of the length! VLDs shoot like crap under a few hindred yards.... recalling the controversial theory of bullets "going to sleep!" which will not be brought up again by Men-Ya.

Don't get too wrapped up in all of this… you will rarely see a difference in accuracy until you start punching at 600 and beyond. But when you get your Redding seater and start seating bullets and they are all different lengths, the reason is that the bullets are not consistent length. Have fun. Be safe.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 00:49:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.246.150)

Well, I have to clear up something from an earlier post of mine as the information that I passed on in good faith was wrong.

The BLU-82 is as Dave Liwang and on other individual described it. It is not an FAE as I had stated in my post. I had gotten my info from a friend who was a crewmember on a C130 that dropped at least one during Desert Storm. I happened to talk to him today on the phone and the subject of BLU-82's and FAE's came up. He corrected me and set things straight. Turns out what he had been originally told by his SNCO was wrong as well. He told me and I passed it on.

Like they say, "Garbage in, Garbage out."

My appoligies for not crosschecking the data before I transmitted. I was wrong and admit it. Better info (and where I found it) is below if anyone cares.

~Just sign me "DakotaAviator" instead of CRC, so "CDC" and I are not confused as one in the same.

-------------------------------------------------------------

"The BLU-82 is a 15,000 pound GP bomb originally designed to clear helicopter landing zones in Vietnam. The warhead contains 12,600 pounds of GSX slurry and is detonated just above ground level by a 38-inch fuze extender. The weapon produces an overpressure of 1,000 pounds per square inch. Eleven BLU-82s were dropped during Desert Storm, all from Special Operations C-130s."
{quote from http://www.fas.org}

"...(FAE's) contain 75 pounds of ethylene oxide with air-burst fuzing set for 30 feet. An aerosol cloud approximately 60 feet in diameter and 8 feet thick is created and ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an explosion."
{quote from http://www.fas.org}

Fact sheet on FAE's:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm
(VERY nice 5 pic series of an FAE dropping and exploding)

Fact sheet on BLU-82:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-82.htm

Photos of BLU-82 in use:
http://www.safaridave.com/pics6.shtml
(nice pics of BLU-82)

Fact sheet on other aviation munitions:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/index.html
DakotaAviator (previously C R C) <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 01:26:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.129.135.127)

Alan – You are correct on the memory of the back of the C-130 for the 20Ks, they used those for the 10Ks as well. So your infested mind is not as bad as you thought.

CRC - Could have sworn I saw one of those dropped during DS. However, since I was a mere civilian at that time my knowledge was not top of the line. I was relying on info form other sources. ?

Bravo – If you want real fun use DM instead of CS or mix the two. You get the feel of being kicked in the privates then you vomit until your toenails come up. Heard that some LEAs were using a mild form, what say yea Undude?

Kevin – We have them for use when necessary. They work very well when needed but are not always needed. I am a firm believer in the ability of the suppressor to negate visual as well as sound signature of the weapon. Also advocate using full boat loads since the sonic crack can confuse the receiving end and without the weapon thump as a final cue can give valuable get away time. Do not believe in sub sonic loads for most work since you must get so dam close to really be effective. Or the scope runs out of travel to get the range.

Hexa – Believe some of your countrymen also taught the Russians to use Arty to suppress snipers during the early years of WW2.

Tony – My brother was a LTC (ocifer VMI type shudder) during DS and we used to BS when we could in Riyadh. He had told me about the leaflets but never got to see any except the example he had and would NOT let go of for any amount of money. Now Glen Turner has a great story about my brother that my brother really wished Glenn had not related to me.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 01:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.177)

Hold Hard guys!

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 02:04:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.177)

You were on the money about them being used in DS. Both bombs were used, and more than one varient of FAE was dropped as well.

The links (cut and paste them-sorry) have more specific info as to #'s of bombs of those types dropped.

~DakotaAviator (formerly C R C)
DakotaAviator (previously C R C) <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Grand Forks, ND, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 02:11:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.129.135.127)

I know he has one but I lost the number.
 
 
 

Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
Auckland, New Zealand - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 02:35:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.154.128.211)

Any thoughts?

Thanks, BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:31:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.79.53.41)

HA! (as Pat would say)... Tejas born, but transplanted. The 400 pound porkers up here, wear purple, spandex tights, and the wolves will absolutly "Kill yo' ass" on the way to a Kaymart "Blue light special".

I carry a 1911 colt's 10mm Delta in a Miami Mice rig, and don't leave guns in the car... parking lot "RATS" :((

Bravo... he's as rural as it gets... shoots at a 1000 yrds on the way to work in the morning :))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:42:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.47)

>>'Angle Cosine Indicator'... Any thoughts?<<

Yup... it's "hokie", and it'll get busticated the first time you rub against anything (or fall over a cliff, into a ravine:)...
... pass it, and get a "slope doper"

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.47)

Sptizer: I'll accept that whole hog. I've got the same problem. If I did help someone out, and it went bad, I'd be worried that someone would leave me holding the bag, even when I was trying to be the best legal person I could be. But that wouldn't happen, would it? HA!

Master Rick: no personal experience with DM, but if it's like CS, I want no part of it. Not that the CS was *THAT* bad, but it was certainly not good. I'd much rather drink a warm beer than sniff CS LOL. I thought the cops used that pepper spray stuff though.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 04:19:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.148)

Spent this afternoon with my old compadre, Colt Commander. Function was, as always, flawless.

Wanted to take a rifle, but the range was already in use so we couldn't have shot beyond 200 anyway. Good call.

Cop vs Military training/mission. While not a cop I am certified to teach judicious use of deadly force, train with and for police on occasion. This has given me a rather different view of the whole situation.

At the risk of ticking off the fine officers on this list I'll say that 90% of the cops out there could care less about their guns and equipment. Other than a means of maybe staying alive. Simply put, THEY ARE NOT WARRIORS!

There has been a subtle blending of police/military tactics. Of course the high speed/low drag SWAT stuff is "cool", so draws a lot of people. Unfortunately, it draws the wrong kind, unless carefully screened. We have some very good teams out there. If you want to see really good view a Marine FAST team in action.

Rememember the hi-jacking at National Airport a few back? The televised black ninjas crawling over and through the craft...that was the FAST team from Quantico. Seems the FBI was called first and said they needed 24 hours to get ready!

Since I'm on the thread already I'd like to remind all the police that they ARE CIVILIANS, too. Some may think it's cool to have a we vs. they thing going, but it is counterproductive. Need I point any farther than Ruby Ridge or Waco?

Again, I'm not busting chops. Merely pointing out that if line officers want to feel special that they do it by doing their jobs effectively and professionally. Merely looking like a bad ass or Swat Fashion review doesn't impress me in the least or anyone else I know.

Rant mode off...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 04:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.141)

Mictac etc. Colt tells me they make a real semi only M4 --- the LE6921 and it is marked 'M4 LE Carbine' instead of the 'Law Enforcement Carbine' marked LE6920 unlike the 6920 it is not availalbe for ind. officer sale and must be an export (Well Canada has some good gun laws) or department purchase. - T/F anyone?

Master Rick - Sub sonic (shudder) - ya I was only thinking of the gas reduction and some sound reducytion - but the sub's drop like rocks and you really don't need to carry another type of ammo.
 
 
 

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:02:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

For anyone who wants to put together a light bivvie kit, we did this subject in December of 1999. It was during 'Sniper Foo.'

Beater truck rifles: I have a stainless and plastic .223 Ruger with a fixed 6X Loopy that's too ugly to steal. The stock has been packed with devcon and the comb and length have been modified to fit. It has a Ching Sling made from latigo. The trigger's not bad. I'd much rather have the model 7 Rem but I'd be scared to leave it in the truck.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:03:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.28)

I am looking into buying a McMillian Modified 40X stock for my Remington 700. As many of you have said, it can't be beat. My question is to bed or not to bed? McMillian recommends not bedding the barrel, but I can't find anything about the receiver. Suggestions and advice? And if you think I should bed the receiver, pillars or a solid block? I'd appreciate any suggestions you more experienced folks might have. Thanks
Paul <Tude@Peakonline.com>
Enid, OK, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:12:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.255.169)

Patrick
Patrick <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, Tx, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.48)

Isaac <Silverdragon419@webtv.net>
Fort Lauderdale, Fl, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:21:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.221.67)

A confirmation on a previous poster about the P35's being available once more.
In the past two weeks, I have see 3, or 4, 9mm's on local shops shelves........

Would like to have anudder, but NOT for 5 C notes plus(:@0

Maybe they will come down to a respectable figure............

Rumor mill.........can anyone confirm this?.

Heard that a French firm, called GATT???.........owns USRAC, Fabrique Nationale, and also Browning.............

USMC A3, New Mod, what, if any opinion do any of you have on this piece?.

Have you shot one, held one?........any info appreciated.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 06:09:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.49)

We have had so many lawsuits from BGs and victims and so many laws from so many f***** up law makers, that today it takes training not to screw up being a cop. What a sad, pathetic legal system we have. I actually feel bad for cops weeding their way through the legal garbage just to "serve and protect"
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 06:12:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

Patrick
aka - pakrat
-Current Law Enforcer
and Paramedic student
-Past Paratrooper
Patrick <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 10:51:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.48)

Patrick
aka - pakrat
-Current Law Enforcer
and Paramedic student
-Past Paratrooper
Patrick <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 10:52:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.48)

I'm now into the third iteration in my quest for the ultimate Ghillie suit.

Construction Tip: If you plan to wear a water bladder (Camelback) under the jacket make sure it will fit before you invest a lot of time stiching Cordura panels and netting.

It looks like I'll have to wear my Camelback externally and cover it with garnish. (Rookie mistake)

I'm cannibalizing garnish from my previous "Wookie Suit". It looks like I'll have enough even with all the waste. After a hot and sweaty stalk at the Rendezvous I'm convinced that less is more.

I've inserted sections of GI sleeping mat into the knee reinforcement pockets of the BDU trousers. Hopefully this will eliminate the need for knee pads that never stay in place and sometimes chafe.

I've gone with O.D. netting that has a 3/4" grid. This seems to be better than the old hammock netting I used before. I got the stuff from Brigade QM.

I found the "Hot Tips & Cold Shots" section here helpful as a review of Ghillie questions.

The 40 hour estimate for construction seems a little short.

Any further tips would be appreciated.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 12:34:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Ken- saw the new M4's you jarheads are getting. They already have the Knight RIS attached. Cool..........

Sir Wes- you have some good points. Especially the warrior mindset. However including Waco and Ruby Ridge with LE is a bad thing. That was federal all the way....no real cops were involved. Yes-there is that much of a division between the feds and the rest of us. All due to their leadership, not due to the overwhelming majority of the federal guys out there.
On the cops vs civilians- you are right and wrong. We have the problem of being segregated by the public and especially the media from the mainstream. They refer to LE vs civilians all the time and every time. Current police writing has also taken up this misconception. I don't get too wrapped up in this- I view it as the same misconception that the USA is a democracy, not a republic. The distinction is there, just ignored. (I will bet anyone big dollars that Bravo will chime in next on this being two of his favorite subjects)

Oh yeah- Rick- the DM stuff came in purple canisters. Guarenteed to work but phased out to being politically incorrect. I don't even think its offered to LE anymore (at least not by the CN/CS/OC manufacturers). Heck, we don't even use CS anymore. Too much damage to property.
Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 14:07:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Shotguns: Benelli vs the world. Benelli is definitely nice but that sucker recoils too damned hard. Dec of '99 we did shotguns and we did it again about six weeks
ago.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 14:10:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.72)

I just read that the Army is trying to change its image from a team, to one of the individual. They have found that todays youth are afraid they will loose their idenity as individuals if they join the army. This may well be the case since I just seen the Armys new commercial where a soldier is out there running by himself saying what and individual he is. How sad, the military will not work as a group of individuals, you will only survive if you work togeather as a team. I truly hope I live to see the day when we turn back to common sence.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:02:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

That's why I have long questioned the legitimacy of the new "SWAT mentality" police (even though I was once a SWAT team leader myself). Why? Because SWAT has deteriorated (or evolved, depending on your viewpoint) into quasi-military, full-time, "Search and Destroy" units. And here in America, with but few exceptions, there is no need for such units in law enforcement. But because every two-bit polce force now seems to have a SWAT unit, and/or sniper unit, the boys seem to be constantly looking for excuses to play with their new toys.

Take the local rural cops here. They have MP5's and yet there hasn't been a single shoot-out between cops and BG's in this county in the last 50 years! They also have one guy who is the designated "sniper". Why???? There hasn't been a single armed robbery in the 11 years I've lived here, let alone a hostage situation. So why all the firepower? The answer is it's due to the irrational SWAT-cop mindset that now seems to have pervaded the entire country.

Even Bravo, the citizen soldier/cop, talks about helping the local cops with potential shoot-outs. Shoot-outs??? Why not help with traffic control? That's probably needed about 10,000 times more often than guns are. I worked on what was often the #1 highest crime department in the USA, judged on a per capita basis, and we never once had to call out SWAT. This was true even though we often had multiple shootings and armed robberies going down at the same time. And while we often called it "The Combat Zone", it really wasn't. At least not compared to military combat zones.

In this old cop's opinion it's way past time LE got back to "Serve and Protect". I know I'd feel a lot safer without so many gung-ho cops running around looking for excuses to use their full-autos. And God help us if civilians start doing the same thing!

End of sermon.
Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.111)

I adjusted the trigger pull to 3 1/4 pounds following instructions on this site, took off the scout scope, which I found too limiting, and replaced it with a Redfield 3x9 with BDC, and added a Harris bi-pod. It's a 1/2 MOA rifle with my best easy-shooting handload, and a 1 1/4 MOA rifle with full power loads.

It's rugged, legal everywhere, as far as I know, and has enough power for everything from BG's to elk.
Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:23:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.111)

-lito, the 'ring' is intentional. I've always thought it best not to take myself too seriously!

Thanks, BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
TN, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:36:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.23.180.130)

Regarding sniping: i'm a pretty good shot, but i'm not going to be on the a SWAT team. at least, i'm not sure. I would have to score first or second in my class in order to be able to choose where i want to go. Any scoring lower and they assign me to a department of their choosing. However, i do intend to join the rifle team. How things pan out only time can tell.

by the way, i own a paraordiance P14-45acp. LOVE THE THING TO DEATH. its a nice big gun, only thing that would fit in my hand that was smaller and cheaper than a deasert eagle. i shot a friends glock 17, and we are going to be issued glock 23's (40 s&w).

well, any advice, comments, and criticism will be much appreciated. always willing to shut up and listen to my elders.
till next time, shoot straight, and speak the truth.

Paul
Paul <freebyrd308@aol.com>
farmington, Michigan, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 16:40:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.181)

If the city to your north is W.B., then I am glad they are at least buying something with all that damn property tax $$$$$$$. BTW- All those rich kids need to have an eye on them...their parents do not!!
BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
TN, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:23:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.23.180.130)

Every citizen should think of themselves as part of the solution in the "protect and serve" scheme. We citizens should work to understand the challenges cops face and assist them in their work when we know we can be of help. If that means being a good witness, do it....if it means taking a shot at a BG when a cop is about to lose his life, do it. I guess the trick is knowing when and how to act.... which is essentially all about understanding the job, eh?

I've been a street medic, a firefighter and a rescuer for several highly technical response teams....in all cases, I have to agree with Flash's statement that the average guy has to spend up to 5 years to really be worth his salt. I don't know about being a cop, but every other emergency responder needs the time in the hotseat... once there, it doesn't matter what job you wanna do, you have been "hardened".... That's why I'd rather work a fire with a seasoned cop or treat a mass casualty with a old firefighter... They may not be specialist, but at least they'll be lucid under pressure.

That said, in the day to day, let's leave the emergency workers (including cops) to do their jobs... and lets pay more attention to what exactly they do... when that life and death situation does come down the pipe, let's be ready to help them out.

also, I think the whole city cop, country cop stereotype is total BS.....A setting may hold influence on how complacent you CAN become, but there are bums and pros in almost every unit... I judge people and emergency workers individually.

Hey, did anyone see that 20/20 piece on the USS Cole. Catch the medic claiming he performed CPR on a guy with 4 broken limbs and he came back to life..... Here is a FACT.... when trauma brings on cardiac arrest, CPR NEVER, EVER works.

I have no idea how much training the 4 navy medics on the Cole have, or how much experience they have. To have to deal with so many massive traumas, all alone, without any support.... for hours upon hours, that is HELL.... I'm sure they gave it their best. I wonder if any of the 4 had any practical trauma care time. I'll tell you this, 4 medics straight out of civvie paramedic school are not as good as one good medic with three years on the street. A good medic can make lifesavers out of any bystander.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:23:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Mr Patrick Sloan the ASLET Conf. is Feb 12-16 in Orlando FL. If you would like further info e-mail me at work astryker@mpltx.com or call at 800-606-7727. I will be in and out of my office the next few days being trained on a new product but I will get back to you asap.

Andrew
Andrew Stryker <strykforce@riflemen.net>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.104.24.242)

I hope LEOs in the OK/TX AO are armed to the teeth and well trained.

The gang currently on the loose in that region is a serious threat.

Smart money says there will be one hell of a fight when the time comes.

To those involved, good hunting, good luck and thank you.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:58:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Knob: the FAL / M-14 / HK-91 is a standard here. Just ask, or check the archives.

Bro Two Shoes: I think it's GAIT. Colt too as I understand. They're BIG.

Mike: guess you win the "big bucks" LOL. Yeah, that's my take on it too. Too many folks don't have the comprehension of what is what, not only in the country, but in their own back yards. Unfortunately, I've got some of the "snob cop" attitude thrown at me before. But I don't use that as a blanket statement! Heck, one of the guys I like shooting with the best was our former cheif of police here. *GREAT* guy. One of the few that has told me that I'd be in for a butt chewing if he found me WITHOUT my pistol ;-) But I've also had to negate the "citizens shouldn't carry pistols because they're not trained sufficiently" by showing someone who was obviously the better trained pistolero, upon which, I requested that he either turn in his piece due to insufficient training or get rid of the attitude. His buddies thought it quite funny, I didn't.

Pat: caught the same thing about the Army via commercial also. My response was "WTF, over!?!?" Yeah, that's a good way to get folks killed. What the heck they're thinking I have no clue. As far as liability goes, look at it from my view point. If I were to help someone out, which I am legally authorized to do (according to law here, I can use lethal force to protect another person) you *KNOW* I'm going to court. If I don't get popped in the back of the head by a trigger happy rookie that's showing up as backup. No good answers!

Flash: I talk about it because here it *DOES* happen. This is where the couple of cop killers ran to from Colorado, this is where the prison escapees ran to. We've had hostage situations, and the skin heads tried to "annex" the local national park as the neo-nazi homeland. We've got WAY more than our fair share of kooks out here, and knuckle draggers to boot. Dunno why the west draws 'em out, but there's been police shootings here, and they unfortunately didn't get all the wackos. As for traffic tickets, under no circumstance would I infringe on anyones civil rights, and without an injury or collision, traffic tickets are unconstitutional. Now let's see if that one stirs up something! HA! In the same way, I wouldn't participate in property taxes or ordinance enforcement. When someone, especially my family or myself, is in direct threat though, actions are clear. My liability might be in court, but I'll live to see that day, God willing. So which part of ordinance enforcement falls under "protect" or "serve"?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, starting to rot, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 18:11:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.188)

Police Tactical Units - Yes unfortunately their is an elitist attitude that seems to go on in some teams. But... I for one an happy to see them running around in Black Nomex - at least their doing something - You never need a Tac Team until you need one - and by that time it is WAY TO LATE. Most Tac Units at least North of the Border have a 5yr req. for application to a Tactical Unit, so you don't get the trigger happy killjoys, and they all have some sort of team selection process on who joins, stays or goes. Of course you then I suppose could get a entire team of rampaging lunatics but I doubt it.

Stan - some guy on the Emporium had a Kurt Wickman done BHP for low $ before Christmas - to the best of my knowledge he still has it.
 
 

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 18:54:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Bravo- a Freudian slip or a confession? Just kidding lol!!!

Jim Mitchell- you speak the truth. Good post.

my 2 cents- I, having responded to SWAT scenes and other incidents, can tell you about the public intentionally creating more havoc than necessary. Refusing to stop at a barricade (due to an ongoing multiple shooting)because the dog needed to be fed was one excuse-truth! SHe even came in a wrote out a complaint!

Bearing that in mind- if I was going down for the count with a bad guy about to punch my ticket- whoever helped my out would be forever "anonymous" and have my gratitute (as well as a free bar tab). This would be in a uncontrolled situation. In a SWAT callout or coordinated action an unknown subject with a firearm would be assumed to be a bad guy with further actions being taken. Basically, don't try to help unless you are sure your actions would not be mistaken. The lone cop on the ground is a different sitation from a tactical team response.
Common sense. Oh yeah. I said it before and I say it again now....Bravo you "civilian"- you could do your spotting role for me anytime!
Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 19:00:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Right on to the point......

I shoot a Ruger M77 .223(Yep I know, but it's all I got!), I am grouping 1/2MOA with it, but I have just started to get in to reloading!

Now it has a 20" Barrel, the ammo, I am using is reloaded, not factory ammmo, it was supplyed with the Rifle, when I purchased it.

I want to start making my own ammo and have desided to use Nosler BST varmint @ 55gr., mainly because the rifle has a 1 in 12 twist.
Shot from Federal cases, weight of 90gr. +/- 2%, primed with CCI primers... think thats all the info.. the rig will be used between 100 - 250 yds.

Right, what powder do you all think would suit?

From the reloading data, I think the best one's would be, H322, W760, R7 or n120?

My main proble is the 20" Barrel, from what I know, the smaller Barrel would best suit a heavy Bullet, but the twist would best suit a light bullet.
The case .223 would be better almost full, but the less den. powder's burn slower, so may not compleatly burn in a 20" Barrel (I know not all the powder will burn, but I would like most of it too!)

Your help, would realy be good..... as I think I am stuck?

TIA

John
John <Zero_one34@hotmail.com>
CDFF, SG, UK - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 19:07:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.255.0.4)

I'm looking for some help, and I hope I've came to the right place. I have a Leupold bench rest scope on my Savage 110FP in .308. It is a really nice scope, but to be honest, I'm just not satisfied with it. I tend to think it is my lack of knowledge and not the scope itself. Here is my problem. Being a benchrest scope, the crosshair is extremely fine. When I look at anything with a broken up background such as tree leaves, gravel, etc, the crosshairs literally disappear. Do I have something out of adjustment? If so, how can I correct this. Maybe it's just my eyes. If I can't take care of this problem, I am going to trade this scope for a Tasco Super Sniper. I hear those are the best scopes you can get for the money.

Thanks a lot for your time, and if possible, e-mail me directly with any information. My address is: jntmjt1@mindspring.com

John Thomas
John Thomas <jntmjt1@mindspring.com>
Glendale, AZ, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 23:36:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.209.189)

Good hunting to all LE involved, and to everyone - BE CAREFUL!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 00:10:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.228)

1. Is the 7mm rem mag a good round for accurate long distance shooting and if so, why doesn't it get used more in the sniper community? Secret Service was using it but recently switched to 200 gr. .300 WM.

2. Do all new barrels need to be fired a while and broken in for best accuracy? I own a savage tactical in .308. Between this and another rifle, I noticed that when it was brand new, the groupings were about 2-3". Once I had 100-200 rounds through it, the groups got more consistent to about .50 MOA. Do you need to fire new rifles a while before the accuracy settles into it's best groups. (have an AR-15 that should be shooting better and friends all said I need to run 200-300 rounds through it first.)

3. I have a hunting rifle in 7mm rem mag that I would like to squeeze some more accuracy out of. It has a 24" tapered hunting barrel (hammer forged) and is not free floated. The barrel contacts a plastic/rubber bedding point at the end of the forearm. Some of my sniper buddies said that this is designed to put upward pressure on the barrel for thinner barrels to minimize the whip. Would free floating the barrel make any kind of significants with accuracy? Thanks.
KEN <lynneh@ccpl.carr.org>
Westminster, MD, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 00:25:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.64.218.198)

1. The magazine tab screw, Remington part #15940, referred to by one gent as an Army requirement is standard with the 700ADL (blind magazine) to keep the magazine box attached to the action.

2. The gent who commented on the magazine box having to fit into a machined slot in the trigger guard assembly (Remington part name) is also correct. You're in a heap of trouble if it doesn't.

3. The magazine box must also fit into the magazine cutout in the action body. The only way I've found to assemble the rifle is to hold the action upside down and insert the magazine box into the action-it's gotta go INTO the action. Spring tension from the magazine box holds it in place (I've thought of using the tab screw or loc-tite). You might have to spread the mag box to get some spring tension. You then install the action & magazine into the stock. Install the trigger guard assembly with the floorplate open so you can make sure the magazine box goes into the slot in the guard assembly.

Remington lists(or used to) separate part numbers for the ADL and BDL magazine box , I've got no idea what the difference might be. You should also make sure you have the correct follower.

Don't tighten any guard screws until you have all the various parts in the right place. Hopes this helps someone.
W.R. Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
Richmond, VA, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:12:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.4.85.99)

I'm glad to see the the old pistola thread is alive and kicking

John Thomas,

What kind of shooting are you actually doing? BR scopes are designed for paper punchers who need the reticle to cover as little of their sight picture as possible. If you are using this scoipe as a field scope, either have Premier Reticle do a swap, or get a new scope.

TwoShoes, I don't know about The Undude, but I still love my McMillan A4 stock, it is a heavy SOB, but I likes it none the less.

Later dudes and Undudes

Kush out
Kush <matchkin g175@hotmail.com>
Great white Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:13:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.195)

Thank You
Josh Wojciehoski <cigarwojo@hotmail.com>
Bailey, CO, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:29:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.156.37.240)

Isaac...
If you like the picture of the H-S, then BUY IT (order it!)... they don't make nothing that's "crap"... all first cabin, all the way.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:41:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)

Roger that. Its not worth the hassle. Pick two, max. One is better.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:50:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.68)

There is good software available. If you had it you wouldn't have asked the question so you can get the chart the old-fashioned way:

If you have a chronograph,
1) Chrono your loads,
2) look up your ballistic coefficient in the bullet manufacturer's catalog,
3) find 100 yard chart for that bullet and that velocity in that catalog. You can estimate your come-ups from a 100 yard zero from that table.

That gets you a ball-park estimate. I assume you aren't able to do exponential regression, so, starting close and working out, you need to shoot a fair amount to refine those estimates.

For those of you who are able to do exponential regression, and are able to shoot (gotta have both), you can get your come-up chart in, oh, 45 shots.
 
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:08:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.68)

Mike: you got that right, an admission AND a slip ;-) Sorry, but anyone that has two or more wifes I find W-I-E-R-D! It's all I can do to live with ONE! HA! And you're right on too. I'd never be so presumptuous as to try and join a tac team in transit. They don't need me! I would, however, stop and help a lone deputy on the dirt roads I drive, but then again, I'd help ANYONE in that position. Hopefully I'll never have to prove it. The closest to "desperados" I've run across were escapees from a juvenile outward bound type thing that ditched the adults.

Kevin of the North: Great! Now the only problem is a lack of cash! HA! Right now I'm short on cash, but long on time. Cleaned the M-25 and the Glock EXCESSIVELY today. Too much time, obviously. So is the Mark 3 the BHP of choice? I caught that the Inglis built BHP's were made in Belgium as parts, then sent to Canada for fit and finish, so they were ALL Belgium BHP's in origin. Right?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:33:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.215)

As the Iraqi LP said over the field phone,
"Tanks!"
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:40:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.214)

Anyone else have an opintion? Thanks.
Paul <Tude@Peakonline.com>
Enid, OK, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:41:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.255.169)

Mike T – To BAD, DM was great! Throw it in wait 5 minutes and then walk in gingerly to avoid the puke. Perks lying on floor begging for medical attention. OC seems to be affective.

Knob Kacmar –On your question, depends who is the answer giver and which is his favorite. Falls into the “my gun is best” category. For me I will take the M14 everytime. Of course the fact that I used it through basic, AIT, and SF training as well as my first rifle in SF could have a small biasing effect. What you think Bravo?

WR Moore – Said gent I believe was me and yes normal on the ADL but not necessary on the BDL. The M24 is a BLD and the army likes to make sure the three steel ball bearing rule is always in force on its weapon systems. Thus the ADL tab screw on the BDL actioned M24. It seems to cause more trouble then it stops and on several occasions I have removed the screw to get the weapon to seat properly. This will cause the feeding problems you mentioned if not seated. As will the fact that if the magazine box is shoved to far into the receiver then the box will jam the cartridge up into the locking lug channel and cause a feeding problem. I have used a rat-tail and rounded out and ramped the leading lip on the box and solved that problem in the past.

Will not touch the LEA vs Mil Mind Set. Have trained both and know the difference. Unfortunately too many do not. Also be careful of the local vs. Fed issue. Remember the bosses mindset (or unset as the case my be) run rampant in both environments.

Have fun guys, Hold Hard.
Rick
 

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:56:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.67)

Lets see here;

The pistol thread is gone.

We now have SWAT Talk, heavy munitions, giant bombs, talk of Ruu..ruu...uuggg.. rifles, doping out a .270? Not to mention Janet El Renyo on Saturday Night Live!

Gooooood Greeeiiiffff!!!!!
 

Nurse Bolt, out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:56:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.90)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 03:15:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.128)

I too read with great interest(?) the comments of MR. Boddington.

I've often been told that the cream will rise to the top of the container; working occasionally in the waste water industry has shown another substance to be much more likely to float to the surface.
Which do you suppose it may be?

Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 03:40:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.23)

OK, now that I have your undivided attention...

Actually, ran across a H&S Precision stock today for a Model 70 Short action(as new) and picked it up for the princely sum of $100.00.
It's the old Winchester "Marksman" style that I've always loved. That's about $150.00 cheaper than new. I have a Winch 70 classic stainless action and am considering rebarreling to heavy barrel. Just need to pick the caliber. This will be a varmint gun. Am considering the 22/250 Ackley IMP, .243 Winch, and the 6MM Rem.

Barrel will be a fast twist to stabilize the longer projectiles. Make will be Kreiger or Hart, I think, since I can't wait three years for another Obermeyer tube and have enough .308's...well, that's not true, a man can NEVER have enough .308's!

What do you folks think...recommendations? I already have the 6.5 X .284, but want something lighter to play with...

Thanks for all your responses to the LE/Military police thread...
everyone had good points. It was pointed out that the WACO and RUBY RIDGE thing were FEDERAL. I agree. Most small agencies would have never screwed up like that...

All the best to you all...seems like lot's going on, but it's fragmented. May have another 6.5 X .284 report in a week or two. We are trying to get to a 1,000 yard range and give the Chandler gun a real workout.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 03:59:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.241)

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 04:40:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Rules change today! To put one on you have to specify which one to take off.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 05:00:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Battle Rifles - Accuracy I have to give to the M-14 series. The way the receiver breaks open on the FN's, and the front handuard attachment is detrimental to match grade accuracy. The G-3 trigger is attrocious. I'd take an FN sooner than the other for general duty, but not for serious accuracy requirements.

Sinister Dave - Q: now with the adoption of the M4's - has there been any more thought to the DM rifle concept that you know of. Or have peopel realisd that a M4A1 w/ ACOG is sufficient cause you don't get stuck with the CREEPY trigger no more?
Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 05:06:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 05:13:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Thanks for any help Ryan A
Ryan <Acree42@msn.com>
calhoun, ga, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 06:35:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.11.66.74)

And just to stur things up, the M-14 is king of the hill!

Just my opinion, back to lurking....
BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Feelin' patriotic in Bush country, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 09:38:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.25)

'yote Bate...
Well, HELL, if it's in Retersons, it MUST BE TRUE... I'm gonna throw out all them glassed stocks, and get new ones, and a bunch of business cards... Jeez, where do they get this crap?? ;)

On the rifle list, I would combine the 6.5mm, 7mm and 8mm "Mouser" (same gun, different hole), and add the .55 Boyes. Before you whine and bitch, consider it was active from the 1st World War, through Viet Nam, and is still active in some arsonals... that's 85 years active service for a military riffle... not bad! (and it ain't a ".50"... ;)
Also, how could you leave out the Swiss 7.5mm "Straight pull"
Scratch the "AUG"... POS!!

Mike in Tejas...
"Float to the top"... I friggin' LOVE IT!

BigJohn...
Kentuckey riffle the first assualt riffle... HA! (as Pat would say).
Haven't you read the laws, you dumb bunny???...
OK... no 10+ magazine, no pistol grip, no flash hider, no bayonette lug, no "Black plastic" stock, no telescope for killing at 4 miles, and it's not popular with the drug gangs...
... and finaly, it's not on the clinton/brady list... HA!

'lito
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
God, I hate snow!! in the very cold, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 11:28:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)

The whole thing was bad, bad, bad!!!!!! Both sides never had a chance once it got started. Me thinks the LE community and the nation has learned quite a bit from this. Thank goodness Reno is gone.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 12:00:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.130)

Wes,
I have had all the calibers you listed and depending on what you want to use it for would guide my selection of the caliber. If you want a flat shooting long range varmint gun the 22-250IMP is great but hard on barrels, mine went at 1400rds. and I didn't abuse it. The 6mmBR is great and deadly accurate (Just ask 'lito) If you go with the 243 go with the Ackly Imp. It's like the 22-250IMP more accurate than the parent caliber. These two calibers are the best coyote guns I have ever shot with the 243IMP. being my all time favorite, but they are not ment to be shot in a dog town. You would junk the barrel out in and afternoon. Another great choice may be the 22-243 with a fast twist or the 6mm-250 with the fast twist. I have read great things about both. Good luck, don't you just love it when you have a project going!!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 14:43:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

I'd also like to share just a bit of my surprise at not having my head handed to me for my last post. Had I expressed those opinions anywhere here in the lovely state of New Jersey, I would have gotten an earfull...
 
 
 

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 15:18:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

On the rifles, Valmut and Daewoo have got to at least make the play-offs.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 15:35:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.26)

Bill - you should give everyone a vote for the five he would pick to go into battle today - same with pistols - that way it would seperate the historics vs. the modern day.
eg.
#1 Colt M4A1 Carbine ( and M16 variants )
#2 FN C1A1/L1A1
#3 H&K G33
#4 M14
#5 FNC

Pistols
#1 BHP - custom
#2 Para Ord P14 - custom
#3 Colt 1911 - custom
#4 Glock 17
#5 Sig P228
 

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 16:41:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Combat Rifles:
1. Springfield 03
2. M1 Garand/M-14
3. Mauser 98k
4. British .303

Assault Rifles/Carbines/Subguns:
1. CAR (and similar M-16 models)
2. AK47
3. MP-5
4. Uzi
5. Thompson .45 (all)
6. M2 Carbine

Pistols/revolvers:
1. S&W Chief's Special Airweight (and similar models)
2. Colt 1911 (and clones)
3. Browning Hi-Power
4. S&W Models 10/19 (and similar models)
5. Glocks (all)
6. Sigs (all)
7. CZ 75 (and clones)
8. Luger
9. Walther PP (and similar models)

Sniper Rifles:
1. Winchester Mod 70
2. Remington 700 (M24, M40A1, and similar models)
3. Steyr SSG
4. Sako TRG
5. H&K G3SG/1, PSG-1, etc.
6. Dragunov SVD
7. Sig SSG's
8. L96A1's
9. M21
10. Barrett 50's
11. McMillan 50's

I have owned, been issued or at least fired over 75% of the guns listed above and have definite preferences for some. What would be your personal choice in each category, plus:

Best bolt action sniper rifle?
Best semi-auto sniper rifle?
Best heavy caliber sniper rifle? (.338 Lapua/.50 Browning/14.5x114 Soviet, etc.)

Mine are:

1. Combat rifle: M-14
2. Assault carbine: CAR/M-16
3. Subgun = H&K MP-5 (but the truth is I prefer the CAR in .223 to any 9mm).
4. Pistols: Sig in .357 Sig, Plus an airweight S&W .38 hammerless snub as pocket backup
5. Bolt action sniper rifle = Remington 700 in 7mm Mag/300 Mag
Semi-auto = H&K G3SG/1 in .308
Heavy Sniper = ??? The only "heavies" I've shot are 50 cal M2's and 20mm cannons, which I guess don't count.

NOTE: My choices are basically reliability, weight and recoil related. I don't like overly heavy guns, or guns with excessive recoil, no matter how well they shoot. 12 pounds is what I personally consider max for a sniper rifle/scope combo that may have to be humped. 10.5 pounds is even better, which is why my current long range rifle is a Sendero SF 7mm Mag. Covert ops and/or SWAT entry weapons should be as compact and lightweight as possible (CAR/MP-5). Concealed carry pistols should have max power with minimum weight/bulk = Sigs/Glocks in 357 Sig or 40 S&W.

The ideal all-around combat zone sniper rifle? The H&K G3SG/1 with issue 1.5x-6x Zeiss sniper scope gets my vote. Why? Because it is exceptionally reliable and rugged, has good iron sights as back-up, and with the scope on 1.5x, and lots of extra 20 round mags, it can double as a highly effective close range defense rifle if the BG's catch up with you!

I'm sure many will disagree.
 
 
 

Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 17:02:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.109)

How about the 1917 Rem/Eddystone ?

Nearly 2/3 of all rifles used in combat by the American Army in France were manufacutured at the Rem/Eddystone plant...they built 1,000,000 in twelve months from sept 1917 to sept 1918...

Besides...that's the rifle Alvin York used when he went turkey hunting...

Jim Kastner <kastner@sprynet.com>
AZ, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 17:03:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.239.216.34)

I realize that a lot of this get's done simply because the optimal tool is not in hand, just fishing to see if I missed something....
 

Jim MItchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 18:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

I have recently red a book "Guns of the South" by Harry Tutledove
For people who didn't red the book. It is about some rasist group from South Africa, who got time machine and went to 1863 to help confederates win the war with the union..
Anyway, the year is 1863, the guy is meeting general Lee and propose to supply army of the South with a repeater gun... Gues what gun he did propose?....

AK-47...

To a SWAT theread.., IMHO the SWAT is a last resort deal, when there any other choise as to use deadly force.., however, right now some SWAT teams are used almost for anything, hence some dead innocents..
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 18:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.11)

Bolt and Kevin of the GWN, re Waco attrocities: If a person in my company (team, etc) were committing rape on a civillian girl in a war zone, and got an axe to the back of the head via irate farmer father, I wouldn't blame the farmer! The screw-up got what he had coming. Now, with this in mind, please illustrate the difference between this hypothetical scenario and the attrocities we saw. Revenge? I would either laugh at the stupid screw-up for getting his head split, or turn him in for court martial. Violation of human rights is just that, and that kind of stuff just "isn't professional".

Kevin: thanks, that's what I thought I remembered reading. When someone I trust tells me that my memory is off, I naturally question myself though. Now to find one of those puppies ;-)

Sir Wes: thanks for the hook-up with Springfield! I've now been assured that my 1911 will be worked over by the custom shop, who do not get into repairs unless it's a situation like this. I've got a feeling that the 3rd return will be the charm. Prepare for 1911 bragging ;-)

Varget Varget Varget Varget (you listening PeteR? ;-))
Sometimes.
Wild Bill, when I tried Varget with the 55's in my 16" AR, I got "less than optimum" performance. Just a touch too slow. My work has pointed to Benchmark as an ideal speed for the shorties. For the full length rifles, I think Varget would be about perfect.

Master Rick: you and I are 100% on the same page about the M-14's. There's nothing else I would PREFER if I knew I was in territories that were not appreciative of my presence. No, you aren't prejudiced, you just know WHAT WORKS. I believe in using what's proven too!

Doug: repeat after me: "Leupold Mark 4 M3". Or otherwise the M1. Ebay, $700.

Sorry so long....
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
take action now, or take chances later, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 18:45:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Answer: Yep, there is a consensus from this site's heavy hitters. The M1 is better at known range shooting than the M3, but is slower under field conditions. That is particularly true if the shooting is to be done under time pressure. Sometime late last year I traded an M3 for a M1 then then tried to defend the move on this site. I failed.

Bravo: Of course you are right about calling these little poodle-shooters rifles. What came over me?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 19:09:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.34)

On the SWAT issue. Glad so many of you have such a strong opinion. We dont need a military everyday either but when the crap hits the fan we sure do just like SWAT. SWAT came about to save lives and it does.
Some of you should stick to things you know and quit finding fault with everything.

I know more SWAT guys than I imagine most of you combined, and they are a fine bunch, dedicated to saving lives. Hot dogs get dumped off the teams just like military spec ops. Rule for SWAT is No One Dies. I mean not even the bad guy. Sometimes things go wrong and people get hurt, but the idea of using military units for SWAT, on American soil is crazy and not thought out. LE is trained to use the minimum force and Military is trained to destroy the objective. Plus we have a little thing calle dthe Constitution that restricts the Military on American soil. That is for all our good.

SWAT has been used for about thirty years and has been a huge plus. Before we lost many more cops and innocents than now.

Undude
mike miller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 19:28:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

However you need to take a look at what some of the small departments come up with and the people who get put on them. Just as one of the guys said, there hasn't been a robbery or hostage situation in the last 10 years.

This is more the case than not in the rural areas. I do see the need for them under some circumstances but not every dept. needs one. I was on a state team when I was a trooper and was only used once in 8 years. The problem is its hard to get the training and keep a good team when your never used.

Our state is now considering several state teams to help cover the rural areas. The problem their running into is that it becomes a turf war instead of the smaller departments using the extra man power they think the state teams will "Take Over". I don't have the answers and i know there is a need for SWAT teams and they have proven themselfs time and again but as I said I don't think every burg needs one nor do I think they need to run around dressed up as NINJAs with hoods over their faces.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 20:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

I'll bite, what is the three ball bearing rule?

LE mindset: I do believe the Universal Soldier personality scares me more than the Barney Fife. I was a guest instructor a few years ago and overheard the "There's nothing I can learn from a @#$%% civilian!" comment. Guess who was the training dummy?

Seriously, the money spent on many SWAT teams would be much better spent on training for entire departments. The problem is that surplus (free) goodies and grant money are available for special teams from the Feds that isn't available for training entire departments. Except maybe for sensitivity training.

Won't continue to beat this horse. There's more teams I've trained with or observed that scare me to death that those who I'd work with.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 20:46:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.54.51.84)

Mike is right and so are the ones that argue the other side of the SWAT issue. When a team is trained and used properly they are lifesavers. When a team is there because it brings in Fed dollars and “maybe we will need them” then they are a disaster waiting to happen. One big problem is the “paramilitary mindset” now invading the forces. As Mike stated, “bring out live personnel” is the main point of SWAT. “Save the hostage!” In the military it is “Situation Resolution”, Those that go in come out alive, whoever else is gravy and shame on you for letting the bad guy live. He will come back to haunt you. Ask the Italian SF in the 70s. I worked with them and they would grab the same guys after the liberal courts would set them free. Hostage situations and kidnappings were rampant until the rule was “situation resolution”. You do the deed, you pay the bill.

Waco and Ruby Ridge – Let’s see, you are walking the dog and suddenly your dog is shot by someone in the bushes. NO identification, no explanations, and oh yes you are a young teenager. You shot back because some a**hole just shot your dog and he may shoot you next. Suddenly, you are shot dead, and THAT is justified because of self-defense on the part of the Marshals, even though they initiated the contact without IDing themselves. (anyone ith a CCWP knows that you can't start something and THEN call it self defense) Next the FBI comes in to support a big nosed crook, that is the president with less than 50% of the vote, who wishes to make this into an anti-gun thing. Repeat the above for Waco but add that they lied to the Fed to add military support which is against Posse comatatis (sp.). It is the paramilitary mindset out of control backed by a moron that would do anything to get rid of guns so that he can be “all that he can be.” Do understand that the Marshalls started Ruby Ridge and BATF started Waco, but the FBI were crap in ending the situation.

Told you guys not to get me going on this one

Quit for now and will get my heart rate lower.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 21:36:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.56)

Cjsoos: If you followed the Rem 700 trigger-fix directions on this site with negative results, try reversing the order of steps 1 & 2. That's what I had to do with my Sendero.

HK G3SG/1:

Kevin: This is a specially modified G3 for sniper use. It's basically a standard G3 that was found to be exceptionally accurate at the factory and modified for sniper use. It has a special trigger installed which is similar to "set triggers" on target rifles. When "set" the trigger breaks at 2-3 pounds. Unset, it breaks at 5+ pounds like a standard G3. The standard G3 iron sights are left on and a special Zeiss 1.5x-6x mil-dot sniper scope, attached with typical G3 mount, is added. The standard 20 round G3 mag and bipod are used. Accuracy is under 1 MOA and this rifle is tough as rocks. Weight is about 5 pounds less than the PSG-1.

SWAT/Military:

Undude: I'm sure you must have noticed that a few of those complaining about excessive SWAT use are ex-SWAT guys like me. Many of us older cops (and ex-cops) don't like the militarization of the police that has been taking place over the past 10 years. Nor do we like the idea of using the real "search and destroy" military as "police" here in the good ole USA.

BTW, you are misinformed if you think there are any meaningful laws prohibiting the government from using the militray as cops. The Posse Comitatas Law (if that's what you were referring to) was effectually nullified about 6 months ago when Clinton and his gang got Congressional approval to use the US military for almost unlimited investigative and police duties on domestic soil. The excuse was that they were needed to fight "potential terrorists". But, unfortunately, the phrase "potential terrorists" wasn't precisely defined, and even if it had been the law didn't limit the military to that role.

I'm sure the SWAT guys you know are all good, responsible Americans, just like the SWAT guys I know. I'm also just as sure that SWAT guys don't make "policy". Politicians do. And who trusts them?
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 22:13:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.78)

All this talk about favorite/best 20th century weapons gets me all tingly inside. If someone will bring a sub-gun to the match in September, I would gladly pay for the booolits just to shoot it (never have before). Let me know what caliber. Hell, I'll even clean it and lap the rings!

Subgun challenged Bolt, out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 22:15:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.153)

But fewer deaths of innocents??? Tell that to the survivors of Waco and see what they say. There, SWAT para-military attacks led directly, or indirectly, to the deaths of more INNOCENT men, women and especially children than any other American LE case in the 20th Century that I know of. How do you explain those deaths if SWAT is so preoccupied with saving lives?

And just as I'm sure that military-style SWAT tactics, overzealous SWAT cops, and incompetent SWAT leadership were to blame for those deaths, I'm also sure that almost any intelligent, highly experienced street cop could have handled the same situation all by himself, with zero deaths on either side. The same can be said of Ruby Ridge.

Maybe you are too close to the action to recognize the grave danger to American freedom that excessive SWAT use presents? But me, I can see it plain as the warts on a corrupt politician's nose.

Bear in mind that I'm not anti-SWAT. When I camplain about the dangers of SWAT I am referring exclusively to EXCESSIVE, UNNECESSARY, OVERZEALOUS, INDISCRIMINATE SWAT use. I am not referring to reasonable and necessary SWAT use (hostage, barracade, sniper situations, etc.) which is what we all thought SWAT was supposed to be limited to, way back in the good ole days when it first started.
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 23:19:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.78)

Remember our history lessons, when the Wheel Lock appeared and began replacing the Match Lock, they were banned by kings through out Europe because they were inherently evil as they were the prefered weapon of choice for criminals. ( Have you heard that line somewhere before?) As it was reasoned, a wheel lock could be concealed under a coat where an assasin with a match lock would give the intended victim fair warning of his intentions. (The assasin would be the guy who is on fire)

Therefor, I can qualify the Kentucky as an battle rifle persuant to the rules. Being infinately superior to the British weapons and battle field tactics, to the point where captured American riflemen were shipped back to England and forced to demonstrate to high ranking officers and royalty that Americans were capable of hitting targets at 400 yard plus. Small wonder it was weapons like these that the Brits were marching to confiscate at the battle of Lexington and Concord.

So in those infinite words of wisdom "Double Ha!!"
BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Chief historian of the family Homeschool. What did your kids learn today?, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 23:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.53)

I think it was McBride that wrote "A Rifleman Went to War". A book about WWI. He wrote that the Germans had the best hunting rifle, the Americans had the best target rifle and the British had the best battle rifle.

I own a SMLE No.4 Mk 2 that I took out of the cosmoline myself. If I had to fight with a bolt gun that one would be my choice.

I've given some thought of turning it into a Scout Rifle but I can't seem to bring myself to disfigure the old war horse.

It shoots minute of torso and is rugged and fast to cycle.

This rifle type belongs on the list for sure.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 23:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.28)

Jim - M4A1 is the flat top

SWAT/Tac Saves lives - yes there are screw ups - but would you rather have a poorly trained cop armed with a shotgun or handgun? Receipy for disaster.
 

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Top ten Hanguns as of tonight.
Colt 1911
Colt Single Action Army
S&W Revolvers KNL Frames
German Luger
Sig Sauers
H&K P-7
H&K USP
CZ-75
Glocks
Walther PPK

Glocks
Ruger Redhawk magnums
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Battle Rifle list.
Eddystone 1917
M1 Garand America 30-06
M14 Springfield America .308 Nato
Enfield England/Canadian .303 British
1903 Springfield America 30-06
M-16 America .223
AK-s 7.62x39
FN's 7.62 Nato (.308)
Mosin Nagant 7.62X54 Bloc others.
8mm Lebel
G-3 Belgium/Germany
SKS China 7.62X39
Mauser 8mm Germany Swiss 6.5X55 Spain 7mm etc.
Daewoo
Valmet AK style.

Krag dropped
Galil dropped 15 remain.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:12:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:36:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.96)

Kevin of the GWN: my friend, I don't mean to be forceful in my disagreement, but I must none the less vehemently disagree. You see, here, evasion of taxation isn't punishible by immediate execution. And as it turns out, there WAS no tax evasion. If you want to say that this was "legal", then you would, by definition, have to defend Hitlers parallel stomping of the Warsaw ghetto. Firstly, the US Supreme court has already ruled that M-16's in civillian hands is a *RIGHT*, not a government priviledge. Secondly, the US Supreme court has ruled that a RIGHT can not be taxed. Of course, we both know that our second amendment is an enumeration of our God given RIGHT to own firearms "of the nature commonly in use". The basic statement is that they were enforcing an illegal law, and we both know how the military courts view people who say "but I was just following orders". That's *NO* excuse! They were being illegal and unconstitutional bullies, no better. Justice would have been a lifesaver on the area after the terrorists burned down the compound.

Flash: I'm afraid the UnDude *IS* correct. You are correct that there was congressional approval, however, Patron Mike is correct that it is STILL UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Yes, federal law, in this case (as SOOOOOO many others) is unconstitutional. If we had a more "energetic" supreme court, then they would strike down these stupid laws as they come up. See the above about following unconstitutional laws. BTW: the US Supreme court has also stated that we can not be coerced into following unconstitutional laws, and have no cause to obey them.

Patron UnDude: Houah! I'm not anti cop, or anti swat cop. I'm vehemently anti fed gestapo, especially when they WAY overstep their citizen given authority. Not to mention stomping on the US Constitution! I can't think of *ANY* example of a local swat cop going overboard. I'm sure there has to be one, but it's not made my attention. However!!! the illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional acts of some "agencies" and "bureaus" is paramount. Good call on the military. That's a slippery slope we should all watch out for. Even though the vast majority are, like cops, great folks, there are some that are burdened by ambition, and they are to be watched VERY closely.

Master Rick: good call on Ruby Ridge. Personally, I can't stand his sentiments, nor those of our lovely "local hero" that talked him into giving himself up (complete with the sig-heil show coming out), but I have to support him 100%. In the same position, I'd do the same thing.

CDC: I hope you weren't making fun of me ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now under the authority of the UN, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:54:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.196)

As an aside, my team has done raids for certain federal agencies that have no tac team. We did the initial, they took over the scene after. I thought it was (and I still do) a good decision on their part. Different agencies too.. I think it has to do with the closer to the top in DC, the more publicity hounding and self serving the top officials are.It's all mindset and the big wigs involved.

Now- How many of you realize the WACO raid was initiated for more federal money for ATF? How many of you know that the supervisors in charge knew the raid time etc had been leaked to Koresh and the supervisors decided to still go ahead? WITHOUT telling the team members?
I firmly believe that was a criminal act to go forward. Bear in mind, I am not commenting on the need or justifications for the initial response. I have nothing but the deepest sympathy and respec