Sniper Country Duty Roster

January 22, 2001 - January 26, 2001

Pablito, the Browning (minus the Mark III internals, kinda like the Series 80 firing pin gadgetry) gets BIG thumbs up/toothey smile! I still get that danged hammer bite (like the issue 1911) if it isn't bobbed.

The Belgique and Belgique/Portuguese pistols are great. The FMAP (Argentine?) copies are OK, but tend to crack frames and slides during CQB MTTs (Mobile Training Teams) overseas. Will eat ANYTHING 9mm, except something with obviously green and grodey brass. SMG or +P+? Don't matter -- you can even mix them in magazines of light (115 grain) ball and Silvertips. (Kev, I think I have two cans of that Canadian 9mm SMG brass -- is it hard to get?)

The other neat ordnance besides the BLU-82s is the deep penetrator. Part of Saddam's command and control was/is set up underground, where a (big) surface burst doesn't even shift the dust five or six stories down. The Ph.D. big heads got together and figured it would take a long, heavy steel smart bomb or surface impact-firing rocket to penetrate deep enough for HE to get to the levels needed to crack a C-and-C bunker, but it would take too long (during the gulf war) to get industry to build tubes of high enough quality, and uniform enough to make the bombs.

A retired Army Master Sergeant said, "Hell, I know where there are railroad sidings full of the damned things." The big heads looked at him like he was nuts. "Watervliet Arsenal in New York has got these big 16" and bigger cannon tubes sitting in open storage outside, some as long as 40 years now."

So they cut these things to length, prop them up on their nose, and pour in liquid explosive slurry, which fills in all the air gaps and hardens as it cools. Slap on a laser/TV on the nose and a maneuvering fin set, and you have a post hole digger you gotta see to believe.

So anybody shot a rifle lately? Wes, that 6.5?

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 00:12:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.18.66)

Marc,

I find the Stoney Point rig the simplest way to measure OAL when setting seating depth. Actually, you are not measuring OAL but measuring from the cartridge base to a point on the bullet ogive measured at a datum (0.300" for .308). Note that this will give you a consistent relative measurement, not a true OAL measurement. For our purposes, it is a very innovative tool. We are really interested in when the bullet engages the lands and that is the measurement that you will obtain using this tool. OAL is important for magazine length. Bullets with long ogives (Berger VLD, for example) may be set at .005 off the lands and still be too long for the magazine box. Conversely, your throat may be so long (newer Remington 700s), that you can not seat the bullet out far enough to be .005-.010 off the lands. The bullet is simply too short.

The system consists of a precision measurement attachment for your caliper (I use Mitutoyo dial caliper), a caliber specific insert that is locked into this attachment, a modified cartridge case in your chosen caliber and the two piece sliding gauge. Buy two attachments… that way you can buy the separate headspace insert also (0.400 for .308) and not have to keep swapping back and forth. The modified case screws on the end of the sliding gauge. Your chosen bullet is dropped into the modified case mouth and the apparatus inserted into your chamber. When you feel the cartridge case seat in the chamber, carefully ease the sliding bar forward. This sliding bar pushes the bullet out of the modified case until you can feel it come to a stop against the lands. Screw the thumbscrew down to mark the spot and withdraw the whole gauge. The bullet usually gets stuck in the lands so carefully recover it using a taped, coated rod. Replace the bullet in the case. The bullet is now in the same position in the case that it was in when it jammed into the lands. That should be your maximum seating length. The gauge can be used to monitor throat erosion also. BR shooters jam their bullets .010-.015 into the lands…. not recommended on tactical loads due to pressure spikes. Carefully measure the base-to-ogive length using the SP caliper attachment. Record the value and do the whole operation several more times. It takes a while to gain the right "feel" when pushing the bullet forward. When your measurements start tracking within a thousandth or half-thou, then you've got it.

You MUST use the same bullet or bullets for all of your measurements. I actually use three and average the measurements for average seating depth. Measure a new box of bullets and you will find that they have significant differences in length to the datum line. Somewhere I have the list from one box of Sierra 168MKs. The measurements resulted in 18 different piles of bullets, all having different base-to-ogive lengths. Pick one length as your standard. Some brands are more consistent than others… I only had three piles with a box of Berger 168VLDs. Hornaday 168 match were about the same as Sierra on QC. Sierra 175MK were significantly more consistent than 168s… maybe reflecting die wear in the long running 168MK production. Who knows. Sierras still shoot the best for me regardless of the length! VLDs shoot like crap under a few hindred yards.... recalling the controversial theory of bullets "going to sleep!" which will not be brought up again by Men-Ya.

Don't get too wrapped up in all of this… you will rarely see a difference in accuracy until you start punching at 600 and beyond. But when you get your Redding seater and start seating bullets and they are all different lengths, the reason is that the bullets are not consistent length. Have fun. Be safe.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 00:49:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.246.150)

Humiloity is a virtue, right?

Well, I have to clear up something from an earlier post of mine as the information that I passed on in good faith was wrong.

The BLU-82 is as Dave Liwang and on other individual described it. It is not an FAE as I had stated in my post. I had gotten my info from a friend who was a crewmember on a C130 that dropped at least one during Desert Storm. I happened to talk to him today on the phone and the subject of BLU-82's and FAE's came up. He corrected me and set things straight. Turns out what he had been originally told by his SNCO was wrong as well. He told me and I passed it on.

Like they say, "Garbage in, Garbage out."

My appoligies for not crosschecking the data before I transmitted. I was wrong and admit it. Better info (and where I found it) is below if anyone cares.

~Just sign me "DakotaAviator" instead of CRC, so "CDC" and I are not confused as one in the same.

-------------------------------------------------------------

"The BLU-82 is a 15,000 pound GP bomb originally designed to clear helicopter landing zones in Vietnam. The warhead contains 12,600 pounds of GSX slurry and is detonated just above ground level by a 38-inch fuze extender. The weapon produces an overpressure of 1,000 pounds per square inch. Eleven BLU-82s were dropped during Desert Storm, all from Special Operations C-130s."
{quote from http://www.fas.org}

"...(FAE's) contain 75 pounds of ethylene oxide with air-burst fuzing set for 30 feet. An aerosol cloud approximately 60 feet in diameter and 8 feet thick is created and ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an explosion."
{quote from http://www.fas.org}

Fact sheet on FAE's:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm
(VERY nice 5 pic series of an FAE dropping and exploding)

Fact sheet on BLU-82:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-82.htm

Photos of BLU-82 in use:
http://www.safaridave.com/pics6.shtml
(nice pics of BLU-82)

Fact sheet on other aviation munitions:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/index.html
DakotaAviator (previously C R C) <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 01:26:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.129.135.127)

Bravo Sierra – My guess on the rings are that they are camo attachment bands. They allow the attachment of natural and artificial camo in the field with a minimum of fuss.

Alan – You are correct on the memory of the back of the C-130 for the 20Ks, they used those for the 10Ks as well. So your infested mind is not as bad as you thought.

CRC - Could have sworn I saw one of those dropped during DS. However, since I was a mere civilian at that time my knowledge was not top of the line. I was relying on info form other sources. ?

Bravo – If you want real fun use DM instead of CS or mix the two. You get the feel of being kicked in the privates then you vomit until your toenails come up. Heard that some LEAs were using a mild form, what say yea Undude?

Kevin – We have them for use when necessary. They work very well when needed but are not always needed. I am a firm believer in the ability of the suppressor to negate visual as well as sound signature of the weapon. Also advocate using full boat loads since the sonic crack can confuse the receiving end and without the weapon thump as a final cue can give valuable get away time. Do not believe in sub sonic loads for most work since you must get so dam close to really be effective. Or the scope runs out of travel to get the range.

Hexa – Believe some of your countrymen also taught the Russians to use Arty to suppress snipers during the early years of WW2.

Tony – My brother was a LTC (ocifer VMI type shudder) during DS and we used to BS when we could in Riyadh. He had told me about the leaflets but never got to see any except the example he had and would NOT let go of for any amount of money. Now Glen Turner has a great story about my brother that my brother really wished Glenn had not related to me.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 01:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.177)

DakotaAviator - CRC - Guess I should have read your last post, I was going to give my "little brother" heck over his explanation of what on during that time. We only saw each other off and on during that time. We would tell each other lies, drink near beer and then hit our heads on the wall to simulate hangovers. Of course there WAS always the Marine House! Ah those wednesday nights and those Irish nurses.

Hold Hard guys!

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 02:04:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.177)

Rick,

You were on the money about them being used in DS. Both bombs were used, and more than one varient of FAE was dropped as well.

The links (cut and paste them-sorry) have more specific info as to #'s of bombs of those types dropped.

~DakotaAviator (formerly C R C)
DakotaAviator (previously C R C) <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Grand Forks, ND, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 02:11:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.129.135.127)

Does anyone have the FAX number for Texas Brigade Armory?

I know he has one but I lost the number.

Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
Auckland, New Zealand - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 02:35:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.154.128.211)

Bravo, your comments make sense, I'am LE and would rather have some savvy gun guys or ex/current military back me up. But with the liability of allowing "untrained" personnel to take any law enforcement action, you would be holding the bag for authorizing it. This really scares the Sheriffs and Chiefs. So that is the real reason, not the lack of trustworthy citizens or the us vs. them attitude.
Oh, by the way, this is for Handgun Country, Department issue is Glock 23, I prefer my Colt 1911's.
D. Spitzer <SPITZER6320@AOL.COM>
Warrenton, VA, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 02:36:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.173)

On the recent discussion of overnight kits for hunters/hikers: I am no expert and will not get into contents but urge all the lurkers that have been fortunate enough not to spend a night in the cold to PUT ONE TOGETHER and TRY IT OUT. It is like a seatbelt- It can't save you if you don't use it. Practice fire skills with what you can scrounge in the back yard, spend the night in the back yard using your kit for shelter- if you want my list, email me but there are others that have forgotten more than I know. Whatever you decide on, practice with it. Life is to short to risk yours unecessarily. My condolences to Torsten and family. You guys rule, God bless.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:16:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

WOW, the handgun thing continues....I don't know how many Roster fans live in Rural America as I do but we'll toss out another thread and see who bites. {Bravo, I gather you and Pablito are rural; who else?} Anyway, how about "truck guns";;;General purpose,do all, everyday companions for work, pleasure, or whatever may come up...Handguns or rifles or both...Must function with a liberal coating of dust and dog hair.. On a more serious note, let's hope G.W. was serious when he said "citizens not subjects". We will hope for the best..outa here..........
MARKWELL <markwell@hardynet.com>
Seneca, wv, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:21:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.21)

Bill,
Thanks for the info on the Stony Point. And definitely know what you mean about telling the difference in bullet lengths already from using my RCBS comp. dies, seems to cause quick headaches just when they seem to get consistent there's a short one.
Hold tight and keep the shots long!!
Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
land of slush, pa, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:28:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.15.169.106)

Has anyone tried the 'Angle Cosine Indicator' from this website? http://www.snipertools.com/aci.htm

Any thoughts?

Thanks, BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:31:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.79.53.41)

Markwell...
>>"Bravo, I gather you and Pablito are rural"<<

HA! (as Pat would say)... Tejas born, but transplanted. The 400 pound porkers up here, wear purple, spandex tights, and the wolves will absolutly "Kill yo' ass" on the way to a Kaymart "Blue light special".

I carry a 1911 colt's 10mm Delta in a Miami Mice rig, and don't leave guns in the car... parking lot "RATS" :((

Bravo... he's as rural as it gets... shoots at a 1000 yrds on the way to work in the morning :))

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:42:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.47)

BS (Bravo Sierra)...
Dudeski, you gotta get a new name... "BS" has that "ring to it" ;)

>>'Angle Cosine Indicator'... Any thoughts?<<

Yup... it's "hokie", and it'll get busticated the first time you rub against anything (or fall over a cliff, into a ravine:)...
... pass it, and get a "slope doper"

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.47)

Have hunted with a pack and small emergency kit for years. Is it just me , or is there really no pack out there that allows shoulder carry of a slung rifle without the constant slippage problem? I've tried a bunch over the years to no avail. It's always a fight to keep the sling from sliding off the shoulder strap of the pack whether nylon or leather..TRied fanny packs but they don't have the volume I need. Still in a cast in the gun room and I'm running out of componants.....outa here again.
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Seneca, WV, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 03:54:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.21)

Pablito I gather you can't leave your keys in the car either.. Too bad.
Markwell <markwell@hardtnet.com>
Seneca, WV, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 04:15:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.21)

OK, just got back from aggressing a grunt company at the MOUT facility at Camp Lejeune. I had mixed feelings about locating some M118LR brass at my firing position. Glad that someone else had used my spot in the past. Bad about the idiots not policing their brass. I can provide lots of reinforcement on it being very hard to locate a sniper. If all you have is the naked eye, you're pretty much screwed unless the shooter is incompetent. The grunts had lots of problems localizing our shooters. Yeah, you can saturate an area with HE, but that's time consuming and wasteful, and even then if the sniper is in a good hide(or a solid building), it's not guarenteed to work. Very few militaries are going to be able to mass that kind of firepower to suppress a sniper. Life is going to get really good after we get the suppressors, but then again we have to hump the gun.
The 16inch shells come in two main flavors 1900lb HE(high capacity) and 2700lb AP. Plus there is a submunition shell and a sabot round for extended range, and there was a nuclear shell fielded, but that a little extreme to take out a sniper:)
The green bands around the M40A3 barrel? They're BOOT BANDS! To hold foliage and maybe burlap. And of course, the rifles are going to get painted. There's no reason not to. I'm looking forward to getting a hold of one, even though it is heavy as hell. If anyone cares, I can provide a little more detail about the MOUT op. E-mail me if you want. Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 04:17:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)

Markwell: I'll bite, since I'm "way rural" ;-) The truck pistol comes in three flavors, 1911, Glock 17, or CZ-75. It depends on what I'm shooting that day. Mostly, it's the Glock, unless I'm pushing ammo through the 1911 to see where it'll jam that time. The carbines also come in 3 flavors. The CAR-15, mini-14, and (ack! I've been infested by Wild Bill!) a SKS sporter. Why the SKS? Simple. If the truck rolls over in the ice, and it gets destroyed, I don't have anything "out". And I can make someone worried with it out to 300. For shooting, I prefer the CAR or mini. Why a pistol AND a carbine? Sometimes I drive into town too! HA! And Patron 'Lito's right, I shoot in the still of the MORNING, 'cause the wind screws with me too much AFTER work LOL.

Sptizer: I'll accept that whole hog. I've got the same problem. If I did help someone out, and it went bad, I'd be worried that someone would leave me holding the bag, even when I was trying to be the best legal person I could be. But that wouldn't happen, would it? HA!

Master Rick: no personal experience with DM, but if it's like CS, I want no part of it. Not that the CS was *THAT* bad, but it was certainly not good. I'd much rather drink a warm beer than sniff CS LOL. I thought the cops used that pepper spray stuff though.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 04:19:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.148)

Lady and Gents,

Spent this afternoon with my old compadre, Colt Commander. Function was, as always, flawless.

Wanted to take a rifle, but the range was already in use so we couldn't have shot beyond 200 anyway. Good call.

Cop vs Military training/mission. While not a cop I am certified to teach judicious use of deadly force, train with and for police on occasion. This has given me a rather different view of the whole situation.

At the risk of ticking off the fine officers on this list I'll say that 90% of the cops out there could care less about their guns and equipment. Other than a means of maybe staying alive. Simply put, THEY ARE NOT WARRIORS!

There has been a subtle blending of police/military tactics. Of course the high speed/low drag SWAT stuff is "cool", so draws a lot of people. Unfortunately, it draws the wrong kind, unless carefully screened. We have some very good teams out there. If you want to see really good view a Marine FAST team in action.

Rememember the hi-jacking at National Airport a few back? The televised black ninjas crawling over and through the craft...that was the FAST team from Quantico. Seems the FBI was called first and said they needed 24 hours to get ready!

Since I'm on the thread already I'd like to remind all the police that they ARE CIVILIANS, too. Some may think it's cool to have a we vs. they thing going, but it is counterproductive. Need I point any farther than Ruby Ridge or Waco?

Again, I'm not busting chops. Merely pointing out that if line officers want to feel special that they do it by doing their jobs effectively and professionally. Merely looking like a bad ass or Swat Fashion review doesn't impress me in the least or anyone else I know.

Rant mode off...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 04:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.141)

Dave, IVI 9mm brass (Ugh) Actually, I like the ammo - I put a lot of it out of my MP-5, before it was realised that I shot a lot off base for a guy who didn't reload (Opps) Some idiot cancelled the contract in the 80's when we scraped the C1 SMG's (Sterlings) not realising that the Hi-Powers and Sig P225's ran on that stuff. Now the ammo is not so fierce - but stil in the +P+ range. It still knocks the shit out of the Sig's and the JTF just cascaded most of their 226's to the MP units.

Mictac etc. Colt tells me they make a real semi only M4 --- the LE6921 and it is marked 'M4 LE Carbine' instead of the 'Law Enforcement Carbine' marked LE6920 unlike the 6920 it is not availalbe for ind. officer sale and must be an export (Well Canada has some good gun laws) or department purchase. - T/F anyone?

Master Rick - Sub sonic (shudder) - ya I was only thinking of the gas reduction and some sound reducytion - but the sub's drop like rocks and you really don't need to carry another type of ammo.

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:02:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Markwell Re buttpacks: Mountainsmith makes a good one. It has enough straps to cinch and compress any load it will hold. Black Diamond sells climbing suspenders that will keep it from wanting to crawl down around your ankles. This set-up and a home-made vest have served me pretty well for the last few years. A couple years back I pretty high up in the mountains and put an elk down late. I decided not to climb down in the dark then back up early. I'm getting old and lazy. It was November in Idaho but the few pounds of gear the pack held made the night comfortable enough. Better that a trip down then up that mountain, anyway.

For anyone who wants to put together a light bivvie kit, we did this subject in December of 1999. It was during 'Sniper Foo.'

Beater truck rifles: I have a stainless and plastic .223 Ruger with a fixed 6X Loopy that's too ugly to steal. The stock has been packed with devcon and the comb and length have been modified to fit. It has a Ching Sling made from latigo. The trigger's not bad. I'd much rather have the model 7 Rem but I'd be scared to leave it in the truck.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:03:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.28)

Hey yall, great site with good info and firey opinions! I spent three years shooting on the PROK (Peoples Republic Of Kalifornia) service rifle team. Now I spend my time blitzing brass and shining shoes as a knob here at The Citadel. I was just wondering if anybody had any comparison info on the M14 vs. G3 vs. FAL especialy in the acuracy dept. I was also wondering what yall consider the 10 best battle rifles of all time. Thanks
GO DOGS!
Knob Kacmar <Kacmark@Citadel.edu>
Chucktown, SC, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.225.110.162)

Hello all! As I am a newcomer here, you probably haven't seen me before. So, enough of the introduction and down to my questions:

I am looking into buying a McMillian Modified 40X stock for my Remington 700. As many of you have said, it can't be beat. My question is to bed or not to bed? McMillian recommends not bedding the barrel, but I can't find anything about the receiver. Suggestions and advice? And if you think I should bed the receiver, pillars or a solid block? I'd appreciate any suggestions you more experienced folks might have. Thanks
Paul <Tude@Peakonline.com>
Enid, OK, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:12:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.255.169)

RE: Daisy Cutters and Blu-82's
Watched a video while we were over in the Storm. They dropped one of the two, I believe it was an -82. C-130, high altitude, went nearly veritical, load master was filming. When it hit, it looked like a nuke going off. There was a Limey flying escort, if I remember correctly in a Toranado (could be wrong on that one) and his reaction over the radio net was "....my god, the yanks have done it, the just dropped a nuke."
It was awesome!!! Commentary by someone standing by, we were on an AF base, was kill zone of one mile and severe concussion zone of five miles.
Man I would sure hate to be on the receiving end of that mother!

Patrick
Patrick <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, Tx, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.48)

A couple of years ago I saw a read an article about a rifle made by H-S Precision,the tactical take down.
I am finnaly able to afford this beautiful piece of weapontry but I cant find a gun store that seel H-s precision weapons or even deal with the company.
Can anyone direct me to a supplier and has anyone had any experiance with this rifle?
I dont want to purchase it and then find out its really a piece of crap.
I would be verry appreciative of any info that anyone can give me.

Isaac <Silverdragon419@webtv.net>
Fort Lauderdale, Fl, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 05:21:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.221.67)

Gent's,

A confirmation on a previous poster about the P35's being available once more.
In the past two weeks, I have see 3, or 4, 9mm's on local shops shelves........

Would like to have anudder, but NOT for 5 C notes plus(:@0

Maybe they will come down to a respectable figure............

Rumor mill.........can anyone confirm this?.

Heard that a French firm, called GATT???.........owns USRAC, Fabrique Nationale, and also Browning.............

USMC A3, New Mod, what, if any opinion do any of you have on this piece?.

Have you shot one, held one?........any info appreciated.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 06:09:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.49)

Citizen Cops:

We have had so many lawsuits from BGs and victims and so many laws from so many f***** up law makers, that today it takes training not to screw up being a cop. What a sad, pathetic legal system we have. I actually feel bad for cops weeding their way through the legal garbage just to "serve and protect"
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 06:12:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

Shooters: I'm interested in pros and cons of synthetic stocked, 3" Mag, 26" barrel or less, Remington 1187 versus Winchester Super X versus Benelli. I'm interested in their overall reliability, craftsmanship, ergonomics, and internals as compared to one another. I've been reading the archives, but so far I have not found anything on shotguns. Thanks.
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 07:20:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.10.31.39)

To any and all current and former Spec Ops folk:
Any of you all aware of a probably now retired SGM Harper, reported to be SF?
If you all know of anybody who might fit this, email me privately. Seems like one of the seven escaped convicts has some prior military training.......and were trying to figure out, just how much.

Patrick
aka - pakrat
-Current Law Enforcer
and Paramedic student
-Past Paratrooper
Patrick <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 10:51:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.48)

Ref: Ghillie Construction

I'm now into the third iteration in my quest for the ultimate Ghillie suit.

Construction Tip: If you plan to wear a water bladder (Camelback) under the jacket make sure it will fit before you invest a lot of time stiching Cordura panels and netting.

It looks like I'll have to wear my Camelback externally and cover it with garnish. (Rookie mistake)

I'm cannibalizing garnish from my previous "Wookie Suit". It looks like I'll have enough even with all the waste. After a hot and sweaty stalk at the Rendezvous I'm convinced that less is more.

I've inserted sections of GI sleeping mat into the knee reinforcement pockets of the BDU trousers. Hopefully this will eliminate the need for knee pads that never stay in place and sometimes chafe.

I've gone with O.D. netting that has a 3/4" grid. This seems to be better than the old hammock netting I used before. I got the stuff from Brigade QM.

I found the "Hot Tips & Cold Shots" section here helpful as a review of Ghillie questions.

The 40 hour estimate for construction seems a little short.

Any further tips would be appreciated.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 12:34:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

CDC...Ineed more volume than a fanny pack...Here in the Eastern mts. we are constantly shedding or putting on layers or we are freezing or broiling during deer season...the quest continues! As to model 7s, I love them.I use a .223 FS with a 2.5x8 Loopy for my truck gun most of the time. My son has one we rebarrelled to.250 Savage several years ago that is really neat. Has anyone out there used Tim Wegner's Hunters vest?? {Blade tech} I've only seen it in the catalog. Still laid up in the gun room so back to the loading presses! outa here!
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
seneca, wv, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 13:21:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.93)

Kevin- I went through the current production list with the guys while I was there. That model #6921 wasn't on the list. #6721 however is, but it is a semi auto with a heavy barrrel- not the M4 style. That one is marked "Tactical carbine". But, like you said, they may make a M4 variant for export only. The M4's all start with the designation RO but they will make out a special order for export....that may be their designation.

Ken- saw the new M4's you jarheads are getting. They already have the Knight RIS attached. Cool..........

Sir Wes- you have some good points. Especially the warrior mindset. However including Waco and Ruby Ridge with LE is a bad thing. That was federal all the way....no real cops were involved. Yes-there is that much of a division between the feds and the rest of us. All due to their leadership, not due to the overwhelming majority of the federal guys out there.
On the cops vs civilians- you are right and wrong. We have the problem of being segregated by the public and especially the media from the mainstream. They refer to LE vs civilians all the time and every time. Current police writing has also taken up this misconception. I don't get too wrapped up in this- I view it as the same misconception that the USA is a democracy, not a republic. The distinction is there, just ignored. (I will bet anyone big dollars that Bravo will chime in next on this being two of his favorite subjects)

Oh yeah- Rick- the DM stuff came in purple canisters. Guarenteed to work but phased out to being politically incorrect. I don't even think its offered to LE anymore (at least not by the CN/CS/OC manufacturers). Heck, we don't even use CS anymore. Too much damage to property.
Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 14:07:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Markwell: Maintaining constant temperature is a problem everywhere. The homemade vest has a big billows pocket in back that will hold a pile jacket. Cargo
pockets on pants will hold neck gaiters, etc. There's slash pockets in vest that will let me get to pile vest pockets below. That's where gloves go. Works for me, but
that's just me.

Shotguns: Benelli vs the world. Benelli is definitely nice but that sucker recoils too damned hard. Dec of '99 we did shotguns and we did it again about six weeks
ago.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 14:10:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.72)

Bravo,
Its more of a liability issue than anything else. I think a lot of the training that LE recieves today is "What not to do" instead of what to do. As someone said it is really a sad world we live in. Everyone is sue crazy and is out for number one and to hell with the other guy.

I just read that the Army is trying to change its image from a team, to one of the individual. They have found that todays youth are afraid they will loose their idenity as individuals if they join the army. This may well be the case since I just seen the Armys new commercial where a soldier is out there running by himself saying what and individual he is. How sad, the military will not work as a group of individuals, you will only survive if you work togeather as a team. I truly hope I live to see the day when we turn back to common sence.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:02:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

POLICE WARRIORS: Wes, the police are not supposed to be military combat troops, or warriors. While the mission of the military is to "destroy" the enemy, the mission of the police is supposed to be to "serve and protect". Big difference. Look at Waco and you"ll see what happens when cops cross the line and act like the military. A lot of innocents are likely to end up dead.

That's why I have long questioned the legitimacy of the new "SWAT mentality" police (even though I was once a SWAT team leader myself). Why? Because SWAT has deteriorated (or evolved, depending on your viewpoint) into quasi-military, full-time, "Search and Destroy" units. And here in America, with but few exceptions, there is no need for such units in law enforcement. But because every two-bit polce force now seems to have a SWAT unit, and/or sniper unit, the boys seem to be constantly looking for excuses to play with their new toys.

Take the local rural cops here. They have MP5's and yet there hasn't been a single shoot-out between cops and BG's in this county in the last 50 years! They also have one guy who is the designated "sniper". Why???? There hasn't been a single armed robbery in the 11 years I've lived here, let alone a hostage situation. So why all the firepower? The answer is it's due to the irrational SWAT-cop mindset that now seems to have pervaded the entire country.

Even Bravo, the citizen soldier/cop, talks about helping the local cops with potential shoot-outs. Shoot-outs??? Why not help with traffic control? That's probably needed about 10,000 times more often than guns are. I worked on what was often the #1 highest crime department in the USA, judged on a per capita basis, and we never once had to call out SWAT. This was true even though we often had multiple shootings and armed robberies going down at the same time. And while we often called it "The Combat Zone", it really wasn't. At least not compared to military combat zones.

In this old cop's opinion it's way past time LE got back to "Serve and Protect". I know I'd feel a lot safer without so many gung-ho cops running around looking for excuses to use their full-autos. And God help us if civilians start doing the same thing!

End of sermon.
Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.111)

Truck guns: I live in a rural area with 5 cops total in the entire county, so if anything did happen I'd no doubt be on my own for quite a while. What do I carry in my truck? A Savage .308 Scout Rifle, slightly modified. It's lightweight, short, accurate and has plenty of power.

I adjusted the trigger pull to 3 1/4 pounds following instructions on this site, took off the scout scope, which I found too limiting, and replaced it with a Redfield 3x9 with BDC, and added a Harris bi-pod. It's a 1/2 MOA rifle with my best easy-shooting handload, and a 1 1/4 MOA rifle with full power loads.

It's rugged, legal everywhere, as far as I know, and has enough power for everything from BG's to elk.
Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:23:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.111)

-lito, Ken,
Thanks for your comments. It's funny how a $70 piece of equipment may be useless, and a $.25 item can be very useful.

-lito, the 'ring' is intentional. I've always thought it best not to take myself too seriously!

Thanks, BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
TN, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:36:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.23.180.130)

RE: M1, M14 accurizing.
Rock Island Arsenal had a manual on the M-14. I've got a copy somewhere. If you have any military connections you should be able to get a copy.
William R. Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
Richmond, VA, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 15:57:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

All: What a coincidence. I have read your comments on LE vs Military mindsets in the lawenforcement role, and it has raised a lot of personal questions for myself. I have applied to the Detroit Police Department, and have been accepted onto the force. I start my training in the academy next week (i'm not sure what the exact date is, i'll know more the 24th). I'd be glad to update you on the goings on in the classes. I think it would be interesting to see how they handle everything and what kind of mindset they establish, and what it leads to (the "US vs. THEM or the "watch what is said and done for fear of a suit" mindsets). I too currently live in a small, but rich city, and they have way too much time on their hands. I live in a suburd, and i can say, why do we need to have a police Expedition, corvette, impalla's and crown vic's, motorcycles, and yes, we even have an RV converted to a mobile command unit (i worked for the city for a while, i saw it all with my eyes) that had room for a fully geared swat team in the back! In the 22 years that i've been alive, there has never been a need for half this stuff. Heck, the city north of us has them infrared camera's that are normally mounted to choppers mounted onto all their squad cars! i find it ironic that a high crime rate area (detroit) is less equiped than it outlynig suburbs where there is less crime. what hypocracy.

Regarding sniping: i'm a pretty good shot, but i'm not going to be on the a SWAT team. at least, i'm not sure. I would have to score first or second in my class in order to be able to choose where i want to go. Any scoring lower and they assign me to a department of their choosing. However, i do intend to join the rifle team. How things pan out only time can tell.

by the way, i own a paraordiance P14-45acp. LOVE THE THING TO DEATH. its a nice big gun, only thing that would fit in my hand that was smaller and cheaper than a deasert eagle. i shot a friends glock 17, and we are going to be issued glock 23's (40 s&w).

well, any advice, comments, and criticism will be much appreciated. always willing to shut up and listen to my elders.
till next time, shoot straight, and speak the truth.

Paul
Paul <freebyrd308@aol.com>
farmington, Michigan, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 16:40:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.181)

Flash,,,Sounds like your county is staffed with LE about like ours..We have 3 state troopers, a sheriff and one deputy...Up until just a few years ago the sheriff didn't even have a vehicle except his personal car..Didn't matter much since he never left the office..Response time here is , on average , about 25-40 minutes, depending which trooper is on duty and where he might be in the county.. So, like you, we are pretty much on our own should something serious come about. I run a seasonal business and you can bet my Commander is close at hand while in the shop and while going about my daily activities where I am amongst the public. On my place, or while roaming the woods, it's hard telling what I'll be toting around, but the Model 7 is always in the truck, along with the dust and dog hair. Interesting that you also found the scout scope "limiting". Back in '83, when Robby Barkmen was at the Gunsite gunsmithy, I had him do me up a scout on a RRRRRuger .308 RL. with the 2x EER leopold of that era..Never did get the hang of it, although I did see Both Russ Showers and Tim Wicket do some pretty good work with similar early scouts; ie, Hitting thrown clay birds; I was amazed!!! IMHO you can't shoot any better than you can see and thats why I have real scopes on most of my rifles. Cooper would gasp, but I'm prone to variables due to the terrain and varying types of cover here in the muontains......Reckon I'll load some .45-70 today; still laid up in the gun room.........outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Seneca, wv, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 16:40:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.77)

Flash,
I couldn't agree with you more. All you need to do though is to look at where SWAT gets most of its training, from military or exmilitary people. The problem is that its two completly different jobs. Then you throw in the elitest attitude that comes with a lot of the SWAT guys and you can see how the lines start to blur. We have the same thing where I live. Our police dept. traded in their shotguns for MP-5s, they used the excuse of over penetration when using a shot gun!!
I don't want you to think that I am knocking SWAT teams, because I am not. I was on one but the problem lies with the personel and some of the departments. Not every dept. needs a SWAT team and not every cop is qualified to be on a team. I can see the need to have trained individuals who can work togeather in a time of crisis but I don't see a need to dress them up as NINJAs, cover their faces and hand them all sub guns. Just my thoughts on it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:19:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Scout; I found it nice to load from but limiting for other things. The magnification is a little small for ranges over 200 and it's very limited at night. The Scout Scope by Leupold is good but pistol scopes pressed into scout config have parallex problems. It would be nice and fast at close range during the day.
Flash'; I have to subscribe to what you say about the situation today! Traffic indeed! You'd have a hard time getting volunteers for that one....so true! My advice if it's worth anything would be to let LE do their job or die trying. If you try to help they don't appreciate your risk, and what you add to their liability. In most states the law allows so Called Civilians to protect themselves if driven to it but condemns your efforts to aid LE in their job. Their mindset has to be different than citizens threatened by death or destruction or they couldn't do their job as society expects it. Too bad but that's the way it looks to me. My heart goes out to them but your on your own if you try to help. They may even appreciate it but the high rankings won't and they won't be allowed to show it. Even where they are under manned and deficient they don't want your help so don't force it on em.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:22:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Paul from Farmington,

If the city to your north is W.B., then I am glad they are at least buying something with all that damn property tax $$$$$$$. BTW- All those rich kids need to have an eye on them...their parents do not!!
BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
TN, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:23:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.23.180.130)

Seems the thread de jour is all about cops, citizens and who does what.

Every citizen should think of themselves as part of the solution in the "protect and serve" scheme. We citizens should work to understand the challenges cops face and assist them in their work when we know we can be of help. If that means being a good witness, do it....if it means taking a shot at a BG when a cop is about to lose his life, do it. I guess the trick is knowing when and how to act.... which is essentially all about understanding the job, eh?

I've been a street medic, a firefighter and a rescuer for several highly technical response teams....in all cases, I have to agree with Flash's statement that the average guy has to spend up to 5 years to really be worth his salt. I don't know about being a cop, but every other emergency responder needs the time in the hotseat... once there, it doesn't matter what job you wanna do, you have been "hardened".... That's why I'd rather work a fire with a seasoned cop or treat a mass casualty with a old firefighter... They may not be specialist, but at least they'll be lucid under pressure.

That said, in the day to day, let's leave the emergency workers (including cops) to do their jobs... and lets pay more attention to what exactly they do... when that life and death situation does come down the pipe, let's be ready to help them out.

also, I think the whole city cop, country cop stereotype is total BS.....A setting may hold influence on how complacent you CAN become, but there are bums and pros in almost every unit... I judge people and emergency workers individually.

Hey, did anyone see that 20/20 piece on the USS Cole. Catch the medic claiming he performed CPR on a guy with 4 broken limbs and he came back to life..... Here is a FACT.... when trauma brings on cardiac arrest, CPR NEVER, EVER works.

I have no idea how much training the 4 navy medics on the Cole have, or how much experience they have. To have to deal with so many massive traumas, all alone, without any support.... for hours upon hours, that is HELL.... I'm sure they gave it their best. I wonder if any of the 4 had any practical trauma care time. I'll tell you this, 4 medics straight out of civvie paramedic school are not as good as one good medic with three years on the street. A good medic can make lifesavers out of any bystander.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:23:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Hello Yall
Bravo and Sarge thanks for the welcome. Sarge I am in the same place I was when we met but the kid is almost 15 months old now insted of 3. All are doing well. How's life?

Mr Patrick Sloan the ASLET Conf. is Feb 12-16 in Orlando FL. If you would like further info e-mail me at work astryker@mpltx.com or call at 800-606-7727. I will be in and out of my office the next few days being trained on a new product but I will get back to you asap.

Andrew
Andrew Stryker <strykforce@riflemen.net>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.104.24.242)

Ref: Military/Police Blend

I hope LEOs in the OK/TX AO are armed to the teeth and well trained.

The gang currently on the loose in that region is a serious threat.

Smart money says there will be one hell of a fight when the time comes.

To those involved, good hunting, good luck and thank you.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 17:58:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Warrior mindset: one of our local city cops, some years ago, pulled his pistol and his duty belt dropped to his ankles. From then on to now, we call him "Barney", as in "Barney Fife". If it was my decision, he'd be limited to one round in a pocket for a revolver, not Glock 22 hicaps.

Knob: the FAL / M-14 / HK-91 is a standard here. Just ask, or check the archives.

Bro Two Shoes: I think it's GAIT. Colt too as I understand. They're BIG.

Mike: guess you win the "big bucks" LOL. Yeah, that's my take on it too. Too many folks don't have the comprehension of what is what, not only in the country, but in their own back yards. Unfortunately, I've got some of the "snob cop" attitude thrown at me before. But I don't use that as a blanket statement! Heck, one of the guys I like shooting with the best was our former cheif of police here. *GREAT* guy. One of the few that has told me that I'd be in for a butt chewing if he found me WITHOUT my pistol ;-) But I've also had to negate the "citizens shouldn't carry pistols because they're not trained sufficiently" by showing someone who was obviously the better trained pistolero, upon which, I requested that he either turn in his piece due to insufficient training or get rid of the attitude. His buddies thought it quite funny, I didn't.

Pat: caught the same thing about the Army via commercial also. My response was "WTF, over!?!?" Yeah, that's a good way to get folks killed. What the heck they're thinking I have no clue. As far as liability goes, look at it from my view point. If I were to help someone out, which I am legally authorized to do (according to law here, I can use lethal force to protect another person) you *KNOW* I'm going to court. If I don't get popped in the back of the head by a trigger happy rookie that's showing up as backup. No good answers!

Flash: I talk about it because here it *DOES* happen. This is where the couple of cop killers ran to from Colorado, this is where the prison escapees ran to. We've had hostage situations, and the skin heads tried to "annex" the local national park as the neo-nazi homeland. We've got WAY more than our fair share of kooks out here, and knuckle draggers to boot. Dunno why the west draws 'em out, but there's been police shootings here, and they unfortunately didn't get all the wackos. As for traffic tickets, under no circumstance would I infringe on anyones civil rights, and without an injury or collision, traffic tickets are unconstitutional. Now let's see if that one stirs up something! HA! In the same way, I wouldn't participate in property taxes or ordinance enforcement. When someone, especially my family or myself, is in direct threat though, actions are clear. My liability might be in court, but I'll live to see that day, God willing. So which part of ordinance enforcement falls under "protect" or "serve"?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, starting to rot, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 18:11:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.188)

Dave Liwanag,
You mentioned:
"The SEALs dumped the M9 for the P226, and now that huge 2x4, the Mark 23"
I've had the opportunity to shoot the Mark-23, and you're right, it's a bit of a beast. On another site, there was a thread that the SEALs are not really using them, and are looking for something more manageable. Any insights?
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 18:48:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

Guys, the French firm is GIAT - they make the new (ish) light 105 for our airborne/airmobile deployable arty guys - since the demise of E Bty (Para) in '93 they then went and bought the Giat's to replace the useless Otto Melara Spagehtti Guns - so now we have no role w/ kit as opposed to role w/ no kit. Go Figure!

Police Tactical Units - Yes unfortunately their is an elitist attitude that seems to go on in some teams. But... I for one an happy to see them running around in Black Nomex - at least their doing something - You never need a Tac Team until you need one - and by that time it is WAY TO LATE. Most Tac Units at least North of the Border have a 5yr req. for application to a Tactical Unit, so you don't get the trigger happy killjoys, and they all have some sort of team selection process on who joins, stays or goes. Of course you then I suppose could get a entire team of rampaging lunatics but I doubt it.

Stan - some guy on the Emporium had a Kurt Wickman done BHP for low $ before Christmas - to the best of my knowledge he still has it.

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 18:54:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

"We've got WAY more than our fair share of kooks out here, and knuckle draggers to boot. Dunno why the west draws 'em out, but there's been police shootings here, and they unfortunately didn't get all the wackos."

Bravo- a Freudian slip or a confession? Just kidding lol!!!

Jim Mitchell- you speak the truth. Good post.

my 2 cents- I, having responded to SWAT scenes and other incidents, can tell you about the public intentionally creating more havoc than necessary. Refusing to stop at a barricade (due to an ongoing multiple shooting)because the dog needed to be fed was one excuse-truth! SHe even came in a wrote out a complaint!

Bearing that in mind- if I was going down for the count with a bad guy about to punch my ticket- whoever helped my out would be forever "anonymous" and have my gratitute (as well as a free bar tab). This would be in a uncontrolled situation. In a SWAT callout or coordinated action an unknown subject with a firearm would be assumed to be a bad guy with further actions being taken. Basically, don't try to help unless you are sure your actions would not be mistaken. The lone cop on the ground is a different sitation from a tactical team response.
Common sense. Oh yeah. I said it before and I say it again now....Bravo you "civilian"- you could do your spotting role for me anytime!
Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 19:00:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Hi Guy's

Right on to the point......

I shoot a Ruger M77 .223(Yep I know, but it's all I got!), I am grouping 1/2MOA with it, but I have just started to get in to reloading!

Now it has a 20" Barrel, the ammo, I am using is reloaded, not factory ammmo, it was supplyed with the Rifle, when I purchased it.

I want to start making my own ammo and have desided to use Nosler BST varmint @ 55gr., mainly because the rifle has a 1 in 12 twist.
Shot from Federal cases, weight of 90gr. +/- 2%, primed with CCI primers... think thats all the info.. the rig will be used between 100 - 250 yds.

Right, what powder do you all think would suit?

From the reloading data, I think the best one's would be, H322, W760, R7 or n120?

My main proble is the 20" Barrel, from what I know, the smaller Barrel would best suit a heavy Bullet, but the twist would best suit a light bullet.
The case .223 would be better almost full, but the less den. powder's burn slower, so may not compleatly burn in a 20" Barrel (I know not all the powder will burn, but I would like most of it too!)

Your help, would realy be good..... as I think I am stuck?

TIA

John
John <Zero_one34@hotmail.com>
CDFF, SG, UK - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 19:07:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.255.0.4)

Hello,

I'm looking for some help, and I hope I've came to the right place. I have a Leupold bench rest scope on my Savage 110FP in .308. It is a really nice scope, but to be honest, I'm just not satisfied with it. I tend to think it is my lack of knowledge and not the scope itself. Here is my problem. Being a benchrest scope, the crosshair is extremely fine. When I look at anything with a broken up background such as tree leaves, gravel, etc, the crosshairs literally disappear. Do I have something out of adjustment? If so, how can I correct this. Maybe it's just my eyes. If I can't take care of this problem, I am going to trade this scope for a Tasco Super Sniper. I hear those are the best scopes you can get for the money.

Thanks a lot for your time, and if possible, e-mail me directly with any information. My address is: jntmjt1@mindspring.com

John Thomas
John Thomas <jntmjt1@mindspring.com>
Glendale, AZ, USA - Monday, January 22, 2001 at 23:36:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.209.189)

NEWS ABOUT TEXAS PRISON ESCAPEES....... Four of the BG's recently
captured in Teller Co. Colorado, another BG reportedly surrounded
by LE (all this is in the Colo. Spgs. area). By a tip in response
to Americas Most Wanted:-))) . I need not tell anyone that this makes
the last two REAL desperate and more dangerous than ever!

Good hunting to all LE involved, and to everyone - BE CAREFUL!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 00:10:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.228)

A couple of basic questions for you more experienced sharpshooters and rifle affectionatos-

1. Is the 7mm rem mag a good round for accurate long distance shooting and if so, why doesn't it get used more in the sniper community? Secret Service was using it but recently switched to 200 gr. .300 WM.

2. Do all new barrels need to be fired a while and broken in for best accuracy? I own a savage tactical in .308. Between this and another rifle, I noticed that when it was brand new, the groupings were about 2-3". Once I had 100-200 rounds through it, the groups got more consistent to about .50 MOA. Do you need to fire new rifles a while before the accuracy settles into it's best groups. (have an AR-15 that should be shooting better and friends all said I need to run 200-300 rounds through it first.)

3. I have a hunting rifle in 7mm rem mag that I would like to squeeze some more accuracy out of. It has a 24" tapered hunting barrel (hammer forged) and is not free floated. The barrel contacts a plastic/rubber bedding point at the end of the forearm. Some of my sniper buddies said that this is designed to put upward pressure on the barrel for thinner barrels to minimize the whip. Would free floating the barrel make any kind of significants with accuracy? Thanks.
KEN <lynneh@ccpl.carr.org>
Westminster, MD, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 00:25:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.64.218.198)

Im still having trouble finding some of the info im looking for so ill narrow my question way down in hopes that someone will know the short answer. Of the M1 Grand, G3, and FAL which one was considered to be the most acuarate? Second If there are any Citadel alumni out there we could use some help in trying to get the rifle team varsity status. Thanks yall. GO DOGS!
Knob Kacmar <Kacmark@Citadel.edu>
Chucktown, SC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 00:28:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.225.110.162)

I read over the Remington feeding problems in Cold Shots and have a couple of comments after building a varmint rifle on the 700 action in 1999 and experiencing some of those problems.

1. The magazine tab screw, Remington part #15940, referred to by one gent as an Army requirement is standard with the 700ADL (blind magazine) to keep the magazine box attached to the action.

2. The gent who commented on the magazine box having to fit into a machined slot in the trigger guard assembly (Remington part name) is also correct. You're in a heap of trouble if it doesn't.

3. The magazine box must also fit into the magazine cutout in the action body. The only way I've found to assemble the rifle is to hold the action upside down and insert the magazine box into the action-it's gotta go INTO the action. Spring tension from the magazine box holds it in place (I've thought of using the tab screw or loc-tite). You might have to spread the mag box to get some spring tension. You then install the action & magazine into the stock. Install the trigger guard assembly with the floorplate open so you can make sure the magazine box goes into the slot in the guard assembly.

Remington lists(or used to) separate part numbers for the ADL and BDL magazine box , I've got no idea what the difference might be. You should also make sure you have the correct follower.

Don't tighten any guard screws until you have all the various parts in the right place. Hopes this helps someone.
W.R. Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
Richmond, VA, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:12:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.4.85.99)

Howdy RosterHogs, been w/o PC for a month now, checking in,

I'm glad to see the the old pistola thread is alive and kicking

John Thomas,

What kind of shooting are you actually doing? BR scopes are designed for paper punchers who need the reticle to cover as little of their sight picture as possible. If you are using this scoipe as a field scope, either have Premier Reticle do a swap, or get a new scope.

TwoShoes, I don't know about The Undude, but I still love my McMillan A4 stock, it is a heavy SOB, but I likes it none the less.

Later dudes and Undudes

Kush out
Kush <matchkin g175@hotmail.com>
Great white Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:13:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.195)

I'm wondering how to come up with a "come up chart". I need it for a .270 thats will be shooting many different loads. Does this mean I'll have to have a chart for each load? I would really like to know my 'MOA up' for out to 500yds., at least.

Thank You
Josh Wojciehoski <cigarwojo@hotmail.com>
Bailey, CO, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:29:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.156.37.240)

Paul...
Glass bet the action, not the barrel, and don't bother with pillars.

Isaac...
If you like the picture of the H-S, then BUY IT (order it!)... they don't make nothing that's "crap"... all first cabin, all the way.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:41:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)

Josh Wojciehoski wrote, "I'm wondering how to come up with a "come up chart". I need it for a .270 thats will be shooting many different loads. Does this mean I'll have to have a chart for each load?"

Roger that. Its not worth the hassle. Pick two, max. One is better.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 01:50:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.68)

Hell, I didn't answer the whole question. How to come up with a come up chart?

There is good software available. If you had it you wouldn't have asked the question so you can get the chart the old-fashioned way:

If you have a chronograph,
1) Chrono your loads,
2) look up your ballistic coefficient in the bullet manufacturer's catalog,
3) find 100 yard chart for that bullet and that velocity in that catalog. You can estimate your come-ups from a 100 yard zero from that table.

That gets you a ball-park estimate. I assume you aren't able to do exponential regression, so, starting close and working out, you need to shoot a fair amount to refine those estimates.

For those of you who are able to do exponential regression, and are able to shoot (gotta have both), you can get your come-up chart in, oh, 45 shots.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:08:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.68)

Knob: I'll go with JUST what you asked. Accuracy only. M-14, followed EXTREMELY closely by the Garand, a little after that, the FAL and 91. But this is with accurized rifles. If you're going 100% stock, things change some. Any are accurate enough for a spotters rifle as stock.

Mike: you got that right, an admission AND a slip ;-) Sorry, but anyone that has two or more wifes I find W-I-E-R-D! It's all I can do to live with ONE! HA! And you're right on too. I'd never be so presumptuous as to try and join a tac team in transit. They don't need me! I would, however, stop and help a lone deputy on the dirt roads I drive, but then again, I'd help ANYONE in that position. Hopefully I'll never have to prove it. The closest to "desperados" I've run across were escapees from a juvenile outward bound type thing that ditched the adults.

Kevin of the North: Great! Now the only problem is a lack of cash! HA! Right now I'm short on cash, but long on time. Cleaned the M-25 and the Glock EXCESSIVELY today. Too much time, obviously. So is the Mark 3 the BHP of choice? I caught that the Inglis built BHP's were made in Belgium as parts, then sent to Canada for fit and finish, so they were ALL Belgium BHP's in origin. Right?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:33:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.215)

Gooch:
You hinted a while ago that the folks down in LA (Lower Alabama) migh put on a shoot for us common folk. Any word yet?

As the Iraqi LP said over the field phone,
"Tanks!"
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:40:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.214)

Pablito - Thanks for the advice on glass bedding the action. Do you have a specific brand name that you would recommend for it? How difficult is that going to make removing the receiver if I ever decide to change stocks?

Anyone else have an opintion? Thanks.
Paul <Tude@Peakonline.com>
Enid, OK, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:41:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.255.169)

SCOPE??
I know this has been asked before but I need some advice.
I just bought a REM 700PSS 300 mag. Trying to decide on one of these. All 3 are around the same price at just shy of $700. Springfield Armory 6-20x56, Burris Black Diamond 8-32x50, Leupold LR 6.5-20x50 all with 30mm tubes and mil-dot. THANKS for any help Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:52:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.120.66.49)

Kevin of the great white north – The subs require 6 on the gun to do 150. You are right, like a rock! My main complaint on the cans is the added weight and stress on the barrel. This changes barrel harmonics and adds more possible “opps” during stress situations. As far as reducing signature AND recoil, can’t be beat. Except when it decides to shoot out at a bad time. :-(

Mike T – To BAD, DM was great! Throw it in wait 5 minutes and then walk in gingerly to avoid the puke. Perks lying on floor begging for medical attention. OC seems to be affective.

Knob Kacmar –On your question, depends who is the answer giver and which is his favorite. Falls into the “my gun is best” category. For me I will take the M14 everytime. Of course the fact that I used it through basic, AIT, and SF training as well as my first rifle in SF could have a small biasing effect. What you think Bravo?

WR Moore – Said gent I believe was me and yes normal on the ADL but not necessary on the BDL. The M24 is a BLD and the army likes to make sure the three steel ball bearing rule is always in force on its weapon systems. Thus the ADL tab screw on the BDL actioned M24. It seems to cause more trouble then it stops and on several occasions I have removed the screw to get the weapon to seat properly. This will cause the feeding problems you mentioned if not seated. As will the fact that if the magazine box is shoved to far into the receiver then the box will jam the cartridge up into the locking lug channel and cause a feeding problem. I have used a rat-tail and rounded out and ramped the leading lip on the box and solved that problem in the past.

Will not touch the LEA vs Mil Mind Set. Have trained both and know the difference. Unfortunately too many do not. Also be careful of the local vs. Fed issue. Remember the bosses mindset (or unset as the case my be) run rampant in both environments.

Have fun guys, Hold Hard.
Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:56:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.67)

AAARRGGGHHH!!!! No way to catch up reading 4 days of Rosterferian Pros. Girlfriend's back went out and had to leave town and computer to take care of her.

Lets see here;

The pistol thread is gone.

We now have SWAT Talk, heavy munitions, giant bombs, talk of Ruu..ruu...uuggg.. rifles, doping out a .270? Not to mention Janet El Renyo on Saturday Night Live!

Gooooood Greeeiiiffff!!!!!

Nurse Bolt, out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 02:56:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.90)

John Thomas; If you can't cure the focus against background problem with the focus adjustment on your end of the scope. You might consider sending it to Leupold for a reticle change. I don't know which scope you have but you can probably get a mil dot installed and keep you Leupold. I think you will be happier.
John; I don't know what you can get over there but IMR 4198 19.5 grains is a very accurate load for your 55's in a one in 12 twist.
26 grains of 2230. Accurate Arms is also good and meters well. 26.5 Varget. Is what I favor but I like VARGET! IN anything I can use it in. Stay away from some of the Ball Powders. Damn things won't ignite well in very cold weather.
Someone posted about he new Sniper Rifle in American Rifleman. Too damned heavy! I agree with Ed Land. Gee's it was too heavy before they put the suppressor on it. Perhaps they should get one of those things they show in the movies that comes apart in the middle. Sniper carry half and spotter carry the other half. I hate to grumble but so called professionals are just plain ate up with the dumb ass sometimes. I didn't know Ed Land was NRA sec. now. Glad to hear it though.
NOw Lito'; quit wastin money on fiber glass. I just read in Feb Issue of Petersens's Rifle Shooter magazine I found somewhere... by Col. Craig Boddington USMC retd. That all you need is a few business cards to bed your stock. You need to losen your bedding screws if it isn't shooting good. That a lot of barrels don't want to be free floated..20 lbs is about right for bedding screws. Some have been found to have as much as 50lbs of torque! Imagine that! And this final tip he offered for you misguided souls! "be sure you know how to fix it before you go to work with files and bedding compound!" I just wanted to call your attention to that wealth of information before you go off half cocked!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 03:02:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Now, now, Bolt, remember those bold blue caps at the bottom of this page...

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 03:15:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.128)

Bill Rogers,

I too read with great interest(?) the comments of MR. Boddington.

I've often been told that the cream will rise to the top of the container; working occasionally in the waste water industry has shown another substance to be much more likely to float to the surface.
Which do you suppose it may be?

Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 03:40:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.23)

Mike; Methinks it's that which we endeavor not to step in! Makes you wonder what the Col. was smoking that day! I guess that bedding job would be pretty good unless you factor in a weather change.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 03:59:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

WES SCORES...!

OK, now that I have your undivided attention...

Actually, ran across a H&S Precision stock today for a Model 70 Short action(as new) and picked it up for the princely sum of $100.00.
It's the old Winchester "Marksman" style that I've always loved. That's about $150.00 cheaper than new. I have a Winch 70 classic stainless action and am considering rebarreling to heavy barrel. Just need to pick the caliber. This will be a varmint gun. Am considering the 22/250 Ackley IMP, .243 Winch, and the 6MM Rem.

Barrel will be a fast twist to stabilize the longer projectiles. Make will be Kreiger or Hart, I think, since I can't wait three years for another Obermeyer tube and have enough .308's...well, that's not true, a man can NEVER have enough .308's!

What do you folks think...recommendations? I already have the 6.5 X .284, but want something lighter to play with...

Thanks for all your responses to the LE/Military police thread...
everyone had good points. It was pointed out that the WACO and RUBY RIDGE thing were FEDERAL. I agree. Most small agencies would have never screwed up like that...

All the best to you all...seems like lot's going on, but it's fragmented. May have another 6.5 X .284 report in a week or two. We are trying to get to a 1,000 yard range and give the Chandler gun a real workout.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 03:59:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.241)

Stan - All the Inglis guns were made in the John Inglis Factory near Windsor Ontario (Canada). They unlike all the other BHP's are imperial as a result not all the metric commercial Hi-Power parts will fit. When Belgium got overun the FN engineers bailed out for Britain and Canada to build kit for the Allies. All the original Brit HP's were Inglis but they replaced them shortly after. My HP is a 70's vintage MkII - unless you really want the firing pin safety they are fine.

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 04:40:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Top ten Hanguns as of today.
Colt 1911
Colt Python
Colt Single Action Army
S&W Revolvers KNL Frames
German Luger
Sig Sauers
H&K P-7
H&K USP
Glocks
Ruger Redhawk magnums

Rules change today! To put one on you have to specify which one to take off.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 05:00:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Looking at the Ruby Ridge/Waco thread - Imagine one thing you are the agent outside with a dead friend --> No matter if you may have had sympathies for the individuals in question (Weaver Family or Koresh clan) with your buddies stomach lying in the road and his blood all over you - you are going to get revenge!!! Just something to think about. I don;t condone any action there, but, I might understand some of it.

Battle Rifles - Accuracy I have to give to the M-14 series. The way the receiver breaks open on the FN's, and the front handuard attachment is detrimental to match grade accuracy. The G-3 trigger is attrocious. I'd take an FN sooner than the other for general duty, but not for serious accuracy requirements.

Sinister Dave - Q: now with the adoption of the M4's - has there been any more thought to the DM rifle concept that you know of. Or have peopel realisd that a M4A1 w/ ACOG is sufficient cause you don't get stuck with the CREEPY trigger no more?
Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 05:06:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

By Request; Top Ten Battle Rifles. Same rules. specify one to take off and put one on!
M1 Garand America 30-06
M14 Springfield America .308 Nato
Enfield England/Canadian .303 British
1903 Springfield America 30-06
M-16 America .223
AK-s 7.62x39
FN's 7.62 Nato (.308)
Mosin Nagant 7.62X54 Bloc others.
Steyr Aug .223 Europeon & Australia
Galil Israel
G-3 Belgium/Germany
SKS China 7.62X39
Mauser 8mm Germany
Mauser Swiss 6.5X55
Mauser Spain 7mm
ARe these all Battle Rifles? Get out the AXE! NO .50 cal's allowed.
Only rifles used in Battle need apply.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 05:13:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Anyone know of a manufacturer of an ATA approved case for a 34" barreled rifle? Overall length would be about <56"
Thanks all.
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 06:09:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.13.3)

Bill - Take that stupid AUG off there - that plastic piece of crap is demeaning to the rest.
Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 06:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Bill, how about the 8mm lebel rifle? I know it has the accuracy of a mortor, but was the first military small arms caliber to use smokeless powder, so it at least has some historical value. I have one, and she can muster 2 moa with Hochkis machine gun ammo.The 32
longrifle <longrifle30@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 06:25:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.157.196)

I have hunted all my life, But just recently got interested in target shooting. I purchased a Savage 110 in .300 win mag. and a 8-32x-44 scope. I am looking for a stock, and had seen only in the savage catolog made by Choate for savage but was not able to find it on there web site. Any Ideas? Also did I pick the right cal. iIt was going to have to be a .308, 7mm, or .223 and I don't particularly care for a .223 having already owned one. I want somthing that I could take out west if I want to but still be able to target shoot. I word for a local law enforcement agency and my partner swears by his .308 rem. But I think that is just because That is what he trained on. Also want mods should I look at first, muzzle break, trigger job, ??????

Thanks for any help Ryan A
Ryan <Acree42@msn.com>
calhoun, ga, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 06:35:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.11.66.74)

Ryan,how many rounds through the rifle? I too have hunted all my life, and have found that a good, crisp 2 pound trigger is plenty light for a hunting rig. If the rifle is new,the pull will break-in somewhat. I have a Rem. 700 in '06 that i set @1.75 pounds, with no take-up or over travel. It serves me well as both a hunting rig,and a bench gun. A trigger job depends on whether you are happy with it now, and what you plan to use it for.The two recent manufacture Savages I have fired recently had good triggers, a little too much take-up for me, but were nice enough for the hunting of 4-legged critters. If you determine that the pull is so heavy that accurate shots are hard to acheive, then a trigger job may be needed. I hope i have helped answer one of your questions.
Longrifle <longrifle30@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 07:06:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.157.196)

Ryan, the 300 mag will do anything the .308 will, then some, in the power department. but, what is the MOA? I think .308 is plenty for anything short of .50m2.??? .308 is good for anything 1000y and below.
I kmnow i'm gonna get whakked on this one...
lONGRIFLE <longrifle30@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 09:23:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.157.196)

Bill,
Oh me Garshk, You forgot the first American assault rifle from your list...The Kentucky rifle! The scourge against the Brits that allowed our founding fathers to pick off redcoats at ranges over six times of what their muskets were capable of retuning. Surely this rifle has earned it's place in history next to the M1 Garand, 1903, M-16 & M-14.

And just to stur things up, the M-14 is king of the hill!

Just my opinion, back to lurking....
BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Feelin' patriotic in Bush country, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 09:38:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.25)

Paul...
I'm using Brownell's "Steel bed"... it's rock hard, and "0" shrinkage.
Don't cheap out on the release by trying to use "Pam" or other household/car products... get Brownell's spray release agent, and there will be NO problem removing the action (and putting it back)!

'yote Bate...
Well, HELL, if it's in Retersons, it MUST BE TRUE... I'm gonna throw out all them glassed stocks, and get new ones, and a bunch of business cards... Jeez, where do they get this crap?? ;)

On the rifle list, I would combine the 6.5mm, 7mm and 8mm "Mouser" (same gun, different hole), and add the .55 Boyes. Before you whine and bitch, consider it was active from the 1st World War, through Viet Nam, and is still active in some arsonals... that's 85 years active service for a military riffle... not bad! (and it ain't a ".50"... ;)
Also, how could you leave out the Swiss 7.5mm "Straight pull"
Scratch the "AUG"... POS!!

Mike in Tejas...
"Float to the top"... I friggin' LOVE IT!

BigJohn...
Kentuckey riffle the first assualt riffle... HA! (as Pat would say).
Haven't you read the laws, you dumb bunny???...
OK... no 10+ magazine, no pistol grip, no flash hider, no bayonette lug, no "Black plastic" stock, no telescope for killing at 4 miles, and it's not popular with the drug gangs...
... and finaly, it's not on the clinton/brady list... HA!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
God, I hate snow!! in the very cold, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 11:28:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)

Kevin of the GWN,
Since I wasn't at Waco, I probably shouldn't comment. The only thing that I saw was the special on the boob tube that had actual footage. I base the following comment on that show:
If I had been one of those souls that was ordered to enter that building and one of my buds got waxed, I believe I would have turned to the idiot that ordered us in and apply the proper corrective action.

The whole thing was bad, bad, bad!!!!!! Both sides never had a chance once it got started. Me thinks the LE community and the nation has learned quite a bit from this. Thank goodness Reno is gone.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 12:00:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.130)

Wes...On your varmint gun project; how about a .250-3000??? I,ve used it a lot for whitetails with 100gr. bullets but have always wanted to build a .250 varminter. You can break 3000fps with 85s.. Might be a dynamite wind gun for PDs..Opinions????..........................................................Battle rifles?? Get the Aug outa there and ad either the Rem. rolling block or even better the Krag Jorgeson[sp?] STILL laid up in the gun room...what to load today???? outa here.
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Seneca, WV, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 12:54:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.49)

Good work Hatchet men; Here it is for this morning.
M1 Garand America 30-06
M14 Springfield America .308 Nato
Enfield England/Canadian .303 British
1903 Springfield America 30-06
M-16 America .223
AK-s 7.62x39
FN's 7.62 Nato (.308)
Mosin Nagant 7.62X54 Bloc others.
8mm Lebel
Galil Israel
G-3 Belgium/Germany
SKS China 7.62X39
Mauser 8mm Germany Swiss 6.5X55 Spain 7mm etc.
Krag Jorgensen 30-40 America
14 remain. Keep em coming and going.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 13:44:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

John,
If you have a Leupold target scope your problem is not focus. I have used one and it was great for what it was designed for, punching paper. I tried to use it in the field and it sucked. I kept loosing the cross hairs also. They are just to fine unless used against a target background. When you get them out in the country they just seem to disappear. You can have Leupold change the reticle to whatever you want. I prefer the duplex for hunting.

Wes,
I have had all the calibers you listed and depending on what you want to use it for would guide my selection of the caliber. If you want a flat shooting long range varmint gun the 22-250IMP is great but hard on barrels, mine went at 1400rds. and I didn't abuse it. The 6mmBR is great and deadly accurate (Just ask 'lito) If you go with the 243 go with the Ackly Imp. It's like the 22-250IMP more accurate than the parent caliber. These two calibers are the best coyote guns I have ever shot with the 243IMP. being my all time favorite, but they are not ment to be shot in a dog town. You would junk the barrel out in and afternoon. Another great choice may be the 22-243 with a fast twist or the 6mm-250 with the fast twist. I have read great things about both. Good luck, don't you just love it when you have a project going!!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 14:43:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Considering the circumstances under which it was conceived and manufactured, I would think the German Sturmgewehr rates up there on the list of Great Assault rifles. I have several pictures of US troops that have picked them up, and perhaps dropped their M1, so as to live longer in the street fighting late in WW2.

I'd also like to share just a bit of my surprise at not having my head handed to me for my last post. Had I expressed those opinions anywhere here in the lovely state of New Jersey, I would have gotten an earfull...

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 15:18:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Bill: Add the CZ and toss out either the Python or the Ruger. Pythons are pretty, but this ain't a James Bond movie. And let's get more specific with the Smiths. I'll take a slicked-up model 25 with Hogue grips.

On the rifles, Valmut and Daewoo have got to at least make the play-offs.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 15:35:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.26)

Bolt - You shoot superiors at the after action debrief - never never in front of cameras.

Bill - you should give everyone a vote for the five he would pick to go into battle today - same with pistols - that way it would seperate the historics vs. the modern day.
eg.
#1 Colt M4A1 Carbine ( and M16 variants )
#2 FN C1A1/L1A1
#3 H&K G33
#4 M14
#5 FNC

Pistols
#1 BHP - custom
#2 Para Ord P14 - custom
#3 Colt 1911 - custom
#4 Glock 17
#5 Sig P228

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 16:41:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

That should have been H&K 33 / G.41
Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 16:42:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Below are the guns wich I consider some of the best 20th Century handheld combat/police/sniping/defense guns (listed in no particular order of personal preference):

Combat Rifles:
1. Springfield 03
2. M1 Garand/M-14
3. Mauser 98k
4. British .303

Assault Rifles/Carbines/Subguns:
1. CAR (and similar M-16 models)
2. AK47
3. MP-5
4. Uzi
5. Thompson .45 (all)
6. M2 Carbine

Pistols/revolvers:
1. S&W Chief's Special Airweight (and similar models)
2. Colt 1911 (and clones)
3. Browning Hi-Power
4. S&W Models 10/19 (and similar models)
5. Glocks (all)
6. Sigs (all)
7. CZ 75 (and clones)
8. Luger
9. Walther PP (and similar models)

Sniper Rifles:
1. Winchester Mod 70
2. Remington 700 (M24, M40A1, and similar models)
3. Steyr SSG
4. Sako TRG
5. H&K G3SG/1, PSG-1, etc.
6. Dragunov SVD
7. Sig SSG's
8. L96A1's
9. M21
10. Barrett 50's
11. McMillan 50's

I have owned, been issued or at least fired over 75% of the guns listed above and have definite preferences for some. What would be your personal choice in each category, plus:

Best bolt action sniper rifle?
Best semi-auto sniper rifle?
Best heavy caliber sniper rifle? (.338 Lapua/.50 Browning/14.5x114 Soviet, etc.)

Mine are:

1. Combat rifle: M-14
2. Assault carbine: CAR/M-16
3. Subgun = H&K MP-5 (but the truth is I prefer the CAR in .223 to any 9mm).
4. Pistols: Sig in .357 Sig, Plus an airweight S&W .38 hammerless snub as pocket backup
5. Bolt action sniper rifle = Remington 700 in 7mm Mag/300 Mag
Semi-auto = H&K G3SG/1 in .308
Heavy Sniper = ??? The only "heavies" I've shot are 50 cal M2's and 20mm cannons, which I guess don't count.

NOTE: My choices are basically reliability, weight and recoil related. I don't like overly heavy guns, or guns with excessive recoil, no matter how well they shoot. 12 pounds is what I personally consider max for a sniper rifle/scope combo that may have to be humped. 10.5 pounds is even better, which is why my current long range rifle is a Sendero SF 7mm Mag. Covert ops and/or SWAT entry weapons should be as compact and lightweight as possible (CAR/MP-5). Concealed carry pistols should have max power with minimum weight/bulk = Sigs/Glocks in 357 Sig or 40 S&W.

The ideal all-around combat zone sniper rifle? The H&K G3SG/1 with issue 1.5x-6x Zeiss sniper scope gets my vote. Why? Because it is exceptionally reliable and rugged, has good iron sights as back-up, and with the scope on 1.5x, and lots of extra 20 round mags, it can double as a highly effective close range defense rifle if the BG's catch up with you!

I'm sure many will disagree.

Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 17:02:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.109)

Bill's rifle list:

How about the 1917 Rem/Eddystone ?

Nearly 2/3 of all rifles used in combat by the American Army in France were manufacutured at the Rem/Eddystone plant...they built 1,000,000 in twelve months from sept 1917 to sept 1918...

Besides...that's the rifle Alvin York used when he went turkey hunting...

Jim Kastner <kastner@sprynet.com>
AZ, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 17:03:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.239.216.34)

Flash - G3SG-1 - that a sniper mod. G-3?
I hope you don't mean the PSG-1 (look at the price tage and shudder)It is a very nice med. range sniping gun but the fixed 6x Hensolt is permanently attached. The CF got rid of the 6x Khales due to lack of tgt resolution at longer ranges.
I agree on the value of semi v.s. bolt in the defensive - but I wouldn't go near the uglies w/o a carbine as well. If you try and make one system do everything you end up w/ a mega POS for anything.
Kevin (of the GWN) <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 17:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Flash OK re-readin your post you obviously didn't mean the PSG-1 cause you mentioned it as well. Is the G3SG-1 eqpt w/ the overly delicate PSG-1 trigger?
Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 17:22:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

I have a Remington .300 Win Sendero and have been trying to adjust the trigger to 2.5 lbs. I have done this before often enough, and I know the ropes. However, for some reason, I cannot get rid of the trigger creep on this rifle. Regardless of how carefully I adjust the screw, I either lock up the trigger, or get some creep. Have never encountered this with a Remington trigger before. Any ideas?
cjsoos <cjsoos@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 17:36:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.39.102.239)

For those interested, GIAT (Groupement Industriel des Armements Terrestres), which loosely translated stands for "Land-force Armament Industrial Group" is a big player in French defence contracts. They owm the firm that produces the French FAMAS assault rifle along with Browning, Fabrique Nationale (FN) and other firms. They produce anything from small arms ammunition to tanks.
Stephen Buddo <sbuddo@hotmail.com>
Blainville, Quebec, Canada - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 17:50:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.164.187.120)

Why would anyone want to put an ACOG on top of an M4A1??? Wouldn't the flat-top variant be better in terms of maintaining cheek weld, and wouldn't the 20" M16A2 be better still, in terms of "optics required shooting".

I realize that a lot of this get's done simply because the optimal tool is not in hand, just fishing to see if I missed something....

Jim MItchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 18:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

I have read all the input about all the different scopes. Is there any opinion on the Leupold Vari X III 3.5x10x40 LR MK1? Yes I said MK1. Any info on this scope?
James <mcm@transport.com>
Battle Grond, WA, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 18:09:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.51.72.9)

In response to best assault rifle question (OT)

I have recently red a book "Guns of the South" by Harry Tutledove
For people who didn't red the book. It is about some rasist group from South Africa, who got time machine and went to 1863 to help confederates win the war with the union..
Anyway, the year is 1863, the guy is meeting general Lee and propose to supply army of the South with a repeater gun... Gues what gun he did propose?....

AK-47...

To a SWAT theread.., IMHO the SWAT is a last resort deal, when there any other choise as to use deadly force.., however, right now some SWAT teams are used almost for anything, hence some dead innocents..
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 18:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.11)

Wild Bill: what CDC said. I've "worn" a Python to the point it required retiming TWICE. Granted, it's MUCHO purdy, and the trigger can be worked over (plug for Charlie Prest) to the point you wouldn't believe (no stacking), but it's nothing more than a glorified 38 Special, +P+ rated. I moved from the Python to the Smith 681, and have NEVER looked back. In my book, the CZ-75 would bump the Python in a proverbial heartbeat. Also, it's my contention that one could take the AK, SKS, and M-16 off the rifle list completely. You asked about rifles, and these are battle carbines. Granted, they're GOOD battle carbines, but they don't fire full power rifle rounds, and therefore are not rifles. Also, I'd take off the Ruger and put in the Browning Hi-Power.

Bolt and Kevin of the GWN, re Waco attrocities: If a person in my company (team, etc) were committing rape on a civillian girl in a war zone, and got an axe to the back of the head via irate farmer father, I wouldn't blame the farmer! The screw-up got what he had coming. Now, with this in mind, please illustrate the difference between this hypothetical scenario and the attrocities we saw. Revenge? I would either laugh at the stupid screw-up for getting his head split, or turn him in for court martial. Violation of human rights is just that, and that kind of stuff just "isn't professional".

Kevin: thanks, that's what I thought I remembered reading. When someone I trust tells me that my memory is off, I naturally question myself though. Now to find one of those puppies ;-)

Sir Wes: thanks for the hook-up with Springfield! I've now been assured that my 1911 will be worked over by the custom shop, who do not get into repairs unless it's a situation like this. I've got a feeling that the 3rd return will be the charm. Prepare for 1911 bragging ;-)

Varget Varget Varget Varget (you listening PeteR? ;-))
Sometimes.
Wild Bill, when I tried Varget with the 55's in my 16" AR, I got "less than optimum" performance. Just a touch too slow. My work has pointed to Benchmark as an ideal speed for the shorties. For the full length rifles, I think Varget would be about perfect.

Master Rick: you and I are 100% on the same page about the M-14's. There's nothing else I would PREFER if I knew I was in territories that were not appreciative of my presence. No, you aren't prejudiced, you just know WHAT WORKS. I believe in using what's proven too!

Doug: repeat after me: "Leupold Mark 4 M3". Or otherwise the M1. Ebay, $700.

Sorry so long....
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
take action now, or take chances later, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 18:45:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

James asked, "Is there any opinion on the Leupold Vari X III 3.5x10x40 LR MK1?"

Answer: Yep, there is a consensus from this site's heavy hitters. The M1 is better at known range shooting than the M3, but is slower under field conditions. That is particularly true if the shooting is to be done under time pressure. Sometime late last year I traded an M3 for a M1 then then tried to defend the move on this site. I failed.

Bravo: Of course you are right about calling these little poodle-shooters rifles. What came over me?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 19:09:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.34)

On the A4 stock I still love it.

On the SWAT issue. Glad so many of you have such a strong opinion. We dont need a military everyday either but when the crap hits the fan we sure do just like SWAT. SWAT came about to save lives and it does.
Some of you should stick to things you know and quit finding fault with everything.

I know more SWAT guys than I imagine most of you combined, and they are a fine bunch, dedicated to saving lives. Hot dogs get dumped off the teams just like military spec ops. Rule for SWAT is No One Dies. I mean not even the bad guy. Sometimes things go wrong and people get hurt, but the idea of using military units for SWAT, on American soil is crazy and not thought out. LE is trained to use the minimum force and Military is trained to destroy the objective. Plus we have a little thing calle dthe Constitution that restricts the Military on American soil. That is for all our good.

SWAT has been used for about thirty years and has been a huge plus. Before we lost many more cops and innocents than now.

Undude
mike miller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 19:28:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Mike,
I won't agrue with what your saying because you are with a large dept. and you live in a totally different area than a lot of us.

However you need to take a look at what some of the small departments come up with and the people who get put on them. Just as one of the guys said, there hasn't been a robbery or hostage situation in the last 10 years.

This is more the case than not in the rural areas. I do see the need for them under some circumstances but not every dept. needs one. I was on a state team when I was a trooper and was only used once in 8 years. The problem is its hard to get the training and keep a good team when your never used.

Our state is now considering several state teams to help cover the rural areas. The problem their running into is that it becomes a turf war instead of the smaller departments using the extra man power they think the state teams will "Take Over". I don't have the answers and i know there is a need for SWAT teams and they have proven themselfs time and again but as I said I don't think every burg needs one nor do I think they need to run around dressed up as NINJAs with hoods over their faces.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 20:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Rick,

I'll bite, what is the three ball bearing rule?

LE mindset: I do believe the Universal Soldier personality scares me more than the Barney Fife. I was a guest instructor a few years ago and overheard the "There's nothing I can learn from a @#$%% civilian!" comment. Guess who was the training dummy?

Seriously, the money spent on many SWAT teams would be much better spent on training for entire departments. The problem is that surplus (free) goodies and grant money are available for special teams from the Feds that isn't available for training entire departments. Except maybe for sensitivity training.

Won't continue to beat this horse. There's more teams I've trained with or observed that scare me to death that those who I'd work with.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 20:46:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.54.51.84)

Army three ball bearing rule – Lock a GI in a closet with three steel ball bearings and he will break one, lose one, and trade the third for a beer (nice version). It was used in the past as the ultimate test for gear in SF, “does it pass the three steel ball bearing rule?”

Mike is right and so are the ones that argue the other side of the SWAT issue. When a team is trained and used properly they are lifesavers. When a team is there because it brings in Fed dollars and “maybe we will need them” then they are a disaster waiting to happen. One big problem is the “paramilitary mindset” now invading the forces. As Mike stated, “bring out live personnel” is the main point of SWAT. “Save the hostage!” In the military it is “Situation Resolution”, Those that go in come out alive, whoever else is gravy and shame on you for letting the bad guy live. He will come back to haunt you. Ask the Italian SF in the 70s. I worked with them and they would grab the same guys after the liberal courts would set them free. Hostage situations and kidnappings were rampant until the rule was “situation resolution”. You do the deed, you pay the bill.

Waco and Ruby Ridge – Let’s see, you are walking the dog and suddenly your dog is shot by someone in the bushes. NO identification, no explanations, and oh yes you are a young teenager. You shot back because some a**hole just shot your dog and he may shoot you next. Suddenly, you are shot dead, and THAT is justified because of self-defense on the part of the Marshals, even though they initiated the contact without IDing themselves. (anyone ith a CCWP knows that you can't start something and THEN call it self defense) Next the FBI comes in to support a big nosed crook, that is the president with less than 50% of the vote, who wishes to make this into an anti-gun thing. Repeat the above for Waco but add that they lied to the Fed to add military support which is against Posse comatatis (sp.). It is the paramilitary mindset out of control backed by a moron that would do anything to get rid of guns so that he can be “all that he can be.” Do understand that the Marshalls started Ruby Ridge and BATF started Waco, but the FBI were crap in ending the situation.

Told you guys not to get me going on this one

Quit for now and will get my heart rate lower.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 21:36:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.56)

Sendero trigger:

Cjsoos: If you followed the Rem 700 trigger-fix directions on this site with negative results, try reversing the order of steps 1 & 2. That's what I had to do with my Sendero.

HK G3SG/1:

Kevin: This is a specially modified G3 for sniper use. It's basically a standard G3 that was found to be exceptionally accurate at the factory and modified for sniper use. It has a special trigger installed which is similar to "set triggers" on target rifles. When "set" the trigger breaks at 2-3 pounds. Unset, it breaks at 5+ pounds like a standard G3. The standard G3 iron sights are left on and a special Zeiss 1.5x-6x mil-dot sniper scope, attached with typical G3 mount, is added. The standard 20 round G3 mag and bipod are used. Accuracy is under 1 MOA and this rifle is tough as rocks. Weight is about 5 pounds less than the PSG-1.

SWAT/Military:

Undude: I'm sure you must have noticed that a few of those complaining about excessive SWAT use are ex-SWAT guys like me. Many of us older cops (and ex-cops) don't like the militarization of the police that has been taking place over the past 10 years. Nor do we like the idea of using the real "search and destroy" military as "police" here in the good ole USA.

BTW, you are misinformed if you think there are any meaningful laws prohibiting the government from using the militray as cops. The Posse Comitatas Law (if that's what you were referring to) was effectually nullified about 6 months ago when Clinton and his gang got Congressional approval to use the US military for almost unlimited investigative and police duties on domestic soil. The excuse was that they were needed to fight "potential terrorists". But, unfortunately, the phrase "potential terrorists" wasn't precisely defined, and even if it had been the law didn't limit the military to that role.

I'm sure the SWAT guys you know are all good, responsible Americans, just like the SWAT guys I know. I'm also just as sure that SWAT guys don't make "policy". Politicians do. And who trusts them?

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 22:13:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.78)

Well, I'm out of my league and information level to continue to comment on SWAT, Waco, Ruby Ridge and all that stuff. One of these days I'll get around to studying tha stuff too. When the old man was a captain on the PD here, SWAT was in its infancy. Back in the riots of 68 and 72, SWAT is what you wanted to do to the bastard on the roof that was shooting at you or to the guy on the street with a bottle of gas and a little rag hanging out of it.

All this talk about favorite/best 20th century weapons gets me all tingly inside. If someone will bring a sub-gun to the match in September, I would gladly pay for the booolits just to shoot it (never have before). Let me know what caliber. Hell, I'll even clean it and lap the rings!

Subgun challenged Bolt, out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 22:15:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.153)

Undude: I just re-read your post and noticed that you claim less cops and innocents have been killed because of increased SWAT use. I don't doubt that fewer cops have been killed, considering that most SWAT cops are dressed in bullet-proof black from head to toe. Heck, they couldn't hardly get killed even if they wanted to.

But fewer deaths of innocents??? Tell that to the survivors of Waco and see what they say. There, SWAT para-military attacks led directly, or indirectly, to the deaths of more INNOCENT men, women and especially children than any other American LE case in the 20th Century that I know of. How do you explain those deaths if SWAT is so preoccupied with saving lives?

And just as I'm sure that military-style SWAT tactics, overzealous SWAT cops, and incompetent SWAT leadership were to blame for those deaths, I'm also sure that almost any intelligent, highly experienced street cop could have handled the same situation all by himself, with zero deaths on either side. The same can be said of Ruby Ridge.

Maybe you are too close to the action to recognize the grave danger to American freedom that excessive SWAT use presents? But me, I can see it plain as the warts on a corrupt politician's nose.

Bear in mind that I'm not anti-SWAT. When I camplain about the dangers of SWAT I am referring exclusively to EXCESSIVE, UNNECESSARY, OVERZEALOUS, INDISCRIMINATE SWAT use. I am not referring to reasonable and necessary SWAT use (hostage, barracade, sniper situations, etc.) which is what we all thought SWAT was supposed to be limited to, way back in the good ole days when it first started.

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 23:19:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.78)

Lito,
Had (E)Gore successfully stole Florida, I would of bet dollars to dougnuts that the Kentucky rifle WOULD of been on Brady II or Brady III or Brady IV ect...

Remember our history lessons, when the Wheel Lock appeared and began replacing the Match Lock, they were banned by kings through out Europe because they were inherently evil as they were the prefered weapon of choice for criminals. ( Have you heard that line somewhere before?) As it was reasoned, a wheel lock could be concealed under a coat where an assasin with a match lock would give the intended victim fair warning of his intentions. (The assasin would be the guy who is on fire)

Therefor, I can qualify the Kentucky as an battle rifle persuant to the rules. Being infinately superior to the British weapons and battle field tactics, to the point where captured American riflemen were shipped back to England and forced to demonstrate to high ranking officers and royalty that Americans were capable of hitting targets at 400 yard plus. Small wonder it was weapons like these that the Brits were marching to confiscate at the battle of Lexington and Concord.

So in those infinite words of wisdom "Double Ha!!"
BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Chief historian of the family Homeschool. What did your kids learn today?, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 23:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.53)

Ref: Battle Rifles

I think it was McBride that wrote "A Rifleman Went to War". A book about WWI. He wrote that the Germans had the best hunting rifle, the Americans had the best target rifle and the British had the best battle rifle.

I own a SMLE No.4 Mk 2 that I took out of the cosmoline myself. If I had to fight with a bolt gun that one would be my choice.

I've given some thought of turning it into a Scout Rifle but I can't seem to bring myself to disfigure the old war horse.

It shoots minute of torso and is rugged and fast to cycle.

This rifle type belongs on the list for sure.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 23, 2001 at 23:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.28)

Guys - I am not defending the actions of the ATF in Waco - what I am doing is attempting to think beyong the foot soldier - the supervisor(s) of the raid.
Stan - can't accept that analogy. The ATF might have been stupid and foolishly thought out but... The Waco incident seems to have been founded legally, it is just the implementation that was criminal.
I still cannot comprehend the req' for a TAX AGENCY to have a TAC team.

Jim - M4A1 is the flat top

SWAT/Tac Saves lives - yes there are screw ups - but would you rather have a poorly trained cop armed with a shotgun or handgun? Receipy for disaster.

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Wow' Great stuff coming out today!
Kentucky Rifles; Not to diminish their importance, but just didn't plan on going back to the Black Powder Era. too far. The Kentucky was more of a style than a particular model but no doubt they won many battles.... here's to the Kentucky, the Sharps Carbine and Sprinfield and all the other great old smokers.!
I think we best stick with general types. variations would be hard to home in on. We could do a list on the best 1911 variations.
Personally I agree with the assesments of the Python! Adios Snake Gun!
The CZ was left off by accident!

Top ten Hanguns as of tonight.
Colt 1911
Colt Single Action Army
S&W Revolvers KNL Frames
German Luger
Sig Sauers
H&K P-7
H&K USP
CZ-75
Glocks
Walther PPK

Glocks
Ruger Redhawk magnums

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Error in last post Ruger and Glock on bottom are computer errors.

Battle Rifle list.
Eddystone 1917
M1 Garand America 30-06
M14 Springfield America .308 Nato
Enfield England/Canadian .303 British
1903 Springfield America 30-06
M-16 America .223
AK-s 7.62x39
FN's 7.62 Nato (.308)
Mosin Nagant 7.62X54 Bloc others.
8mm Lebel
G-3 Belgium/Germany
SKS China 7.62X39
Mauser 8mm Germany Swiss 6.5X55 Spain 7mm etc.
Daewoo
Valmet AK style.

Krag dropped
Galil dropped 15 remain.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:12:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Kevin: The Department of Housing and Urban Development has a SWAT team. Why not? The Strategic Air Command had a seat at the table for the Contra war.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:36:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.96)

Wild Bill: I'd drop the Lebel and retake the Krag. I've got both personally, and the Krag is FAR nicer. Not the first, but the workmanship is self evident.

Kevin of the GWN: my friend, I don't mean to be forceful in my disagreement, but I must none the less vehemently disagree. You see, here, evasion of taxation isn't punishible by immediate execution. And as it turns out, there WAS no tax evasion. If you want to say that this was "legal", then you would, by definition, have to defend Hitlers parallel stomping of the Warsaw ghetto. Firstly, the US Supreme court has already ruled that M-16's in civillian hands is a *RIGHT*, not a government priviledge. Secondly, the US Supreme court has ruled that a RIGHT can not be taxed. Of course, we both know that our second amendment is an enumeration of our God given RIGHT to own firearms "of the nature commonly in use". The basic statement is that they were enforcing an illegal law, and we both know how the military courts view people who say "but I was just following orders". That's *NO* excuse! They were being illegal and unconstitutional bullies, no better. Justice would have been a lifesaver on the area after the terrorists burned down the compound.

Flash: I'm afraid the UnDude *IS* correct. You are correct that there was congressional approval, however, Patron Mike is correct that it is STILL UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Yes, federal law, in this case (as SOOOOOO many others) is unconstitutional. If we had a more "energetic" supreme court, then they would strike down these stupid laws as they come up. See the above about following unconstitutional laws. BTW: the US Supreme court has also stated that we can not be coerced into following unconstitutional laws, and have no cause to obey them.

Patron UnDude: Houah! I'm not anti cop, or anti swat cop. I'm vehemently anti fed gestapo, especially when they WAY overstep their citizen given authority. Not to mention stomping on the US Constitution! I can't think of *ANY* example of a local swat cop going overboard. I'm sure there has to be one, but it's not made my attention. However!!! the illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional acts of some "agencies" and "bureaus" is paramount. Good call on the military. That's a slippery slope we should all watch out for. Even though the vast majority are, like cops, great folks, there are some that are burdened by ambition, and they are to be watched VERY closely.

Master Rick: good call on Ruby Ridge. Personally, I can't stand his sentiments, nor those of our lovely "local hero" that talked him into giving himself up (complete with the sig-heil show coming out), but I have to support him 100%. In the same position, I'd do the same thing.

CDC: I hope you weren't making fun of me ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now under the authority of the UN, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:54:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.196)

SPIN DRIFT!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 00:58:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.153)

ATF- Alcohol, Tobacco, and FIREARMS. I can understand their need for a tactical team by that one word. No flame here Kevin, but you may not realize what they actually do enforce.

As an aside, my team has done raids for certain federal agencies that have no tac team. We did the initial, they took over the scene after. I thought it was (and I still do) a good decision on their part. Different agencies too.. I think it has to do with the closer to the top in DC, the more publicity hounding and self serving the top officials are.It's all mindset and the big wigs involved.

Now- How many of you realize the WACO raid was initiated for more federal money for ATF? How many of you know that the supervisors in charge knew the raid time etc had been leaked to Koresh and the supervisors decided to still go ahead? WITHOUT telling the team members?
I firmly believe that was a criminal act to go forward. Bear in mind, I am not commenting on the need or justifications for the initial response. I have nothing but the deepest sympathy and respect for those agents who died. Their supervisors who basically sent them in to die however..... I don't wan't to be taken out of context here- the federal agents involved in this and others were let down or lied to by the political ambitions of their supervisors. The average agent in these situations was only given minimal info and went forward in good faith. They are not to blame. They were betrayed.

My rant is over- it's just that some of the last statements can been seen to have taken a decidely "anti cop" tone. I am not saying they were written with that slant in mind, but they can be easily interpreted that way. I just didn't want to be seen as adding anything anti LE or Federal Agent. I also don't think the majority of you guys feel that way either. If I am wrong in this, I will shut my trap and leave quietly.

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 01:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Bill,
I feel vindicated! Long live the memory of the old smokewagons and the brave men who carried them. You gotta admit, it takes b*lls to stand in the middle of a field ramming powder patch and ball down a barrel while hearing an officer shout from the other side of the field...Ready, aim, Fir.........

No arguments here about your rifle list. All those listed have more strengths than weaknesses.

With that said, dare I propose a combat shotgun list? This one ought'a be much shorter.

Remington 870 - (First not by accident)
Benelli M1 super 90
Beretta 390
Winchester model 12 trench gun
Benelli M3 super 90

List is open for nominations guys!

BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 01:10:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.97)

Bite the tongue, bite the tongue, bite the tongue, aw heck with it, Kentucky rifle is a misnomor and it is properly called the Pennsylvania rifle. They were made byt eh Pennsylvannia Dutch and called the Kentucky Rifle due to the popularity in Kentucky.

TRIPLE HA!

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 01:20:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.183)

Guys, I have been lurking about for two years and cannot tell you the respect I have for the bunch of you. Whether I agree with you or not I have the utmost respect for all here. Other then resond to an occasional AR-10 question ( I know LOL )I keep quiet. But this SWAT attitude thread has got my dander up.

Kevin and Mike- One needs to look no further than the Two situations mentioned, plus countless others by the BATF and Local SWAT screw ups. Many citizens have had their rights violated and their property destroyed( some even killed) without any due process of law. Many of these raids are conducted with warrents issued on false statemnet given by "Criminal" informants trying to get reduced charges. When nothing is found after destroying a persons home, they leave with no apology or reparation to the citizens that were effectively held hostage for hours. What is missing today is that the "To protect and to serve" has been replaced with "Us vs Them" for many in to much of L.E.

A recent shooting in Detroit serves as a good example of this Us vs Them attitude. Police were called to a house where they found a man in his front yard with a rake. They tried to talk to the man but he did not respond to their voice comands. When he turned to move toward them with only a rake he was shot over a dozen times by the responding officer and killed. It was later learned that the man was deaf and slightly retarded. He was agitated because he was locked out of his house and a neighbor called the police thinking they could help him get into his house. The police officer was cleared of the shooting in a week and back on patrol. Both the officer and the victim were of the same race. The statement issued by the Detroit Police said the officer was in fear for his safety thereby justifing the shooting.

I bring these up not to flame anyone in L.E., there comes a time when a dose of reality is required. If not for a severe Knee injury while on active duty with the Air Force I would be In L.E. ( You can't catch bad guys if you can't run.) But I do know a Sherif and Police Chief personally, and their biggest personel problems have to deal with this very issue. I also know many L.E. officers. Many are of the highest character, but many unfortunately are not. I would welcome the day when more L.E.'s with the character of those found here were on the streets.

Bolt, Bravo, Flash. - You guys are right on the money as far as I am concerned. Unfortunatley, Ruby Ridge and Waco are only the big events, with many small ones going unreported in the media. Their is no justification for a Tax Collecting Agency to have a SWAT TEAM!
Pure and Simple.

I have said enough.

Mike, I need some slings and cannot get in touch with you. Is your Email working?

Titan

Titan <titan7.62@home.com>
Who Knows, Michigan, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 01:28:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

Rick,
Yes, you are correct. At the time Kentucky was the frontier, with the first settlers coming from Pennsylvania being led by James Harrod forming Harrodsburg in 1774. The Kentucky rifle and the Pennsylvania are one in the same. Only depending upon where you lived at the time.

So...QUADRUPLE HA!!!
BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
West of Pennsylvania, North of Kentucky, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 01:45:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.97)

Titan: you're right, they go unmentioned in the media, which is partially the reason for Patriots USA. We've done pretty well as far as some of the atf attrocities that are current and ongoing. Notably Jerry's problem in Mesa. He found himself surrounded by ninjas on more than one occasion, his entire collection confiscated, mutilated, and such (pre-64 Winchester new in box "test fired for crime scene evidence", taken out of the box and then THROWN across the room into a trashcan filled with rifles), held without the right to an attourney (he wasn't formally arrested!!!) and to top it off, they "confiscated" the surveilance video and destroyed the recorder. This was, reportedly, due to him not having a $15 "pawnbrokers" town license, although he didn't take in or sell used weapons. The second was retribution for "going public" where they confiscated his ammo, seems they said that nobody could possibly have that much ammo for "personal usage". Now then. Who will be the first to arrest these ninja? God willing, they'll see a wall of faces, mine among them.

Mike: Likewise, I don't want to be anything other than friendly to you, but here's the case. Alcohol and tobacco aren't constitutionally protected items. Firearms are. Congress states that thier authority to empower the ATF stems from the "interstate commerce" clause. The Supreme court, last year, stated that this isn't quite the case. In a trial against a self sufficient farmer, who used DDT on his crops (personal consumption), the EPA made an extremely convoluted case that interstate commerce applied. It didn't. They affirmed it didn't. Same thing here.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
now quit this, you're DRAWING me out!, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 01:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.196)

Ha I wondered when the Kentucky/Penn. thing would come to light! Good job for accuracy SC. We leave no stones unturned around here!

Big John' I guess someone should add the Mosberg 500 and perhaps the old Winchester Model 97 Trench gun. It really isn't much by today's standards but I think in it's day maybe it worked.

One has only to recall the incident in LA where 2 guys with a couple of sprayers and metal breast plates held off LA's finest to a blood bath because nobody on patrol could shoot a handgun well enough to make a head shot. Or the FBI's embarrasing defeat in Florida we're all familiar with to see that special weapons teams are needed in extreme circumstances. Recent events involving the 7 escaped cons in Texas Illustrate it further. How many would want to take them on with a service handgun. One man dead already! Luckily it ended well so far. I heard that LA reformed by locating 1 AR 15 in each prescinct to be used only by the Ranking officer or something such as that. The riots of the 60's and the most recent ones illustrate that some sort of deterent is needed to keep order in the large battle grounds of the large cities. Unfortunately for all of us the Bureaus become monsters serving each other and themselves and to give them license to create Special Weapons And Tactics teams runs some risk. IT was something they could whine about and get money for from a niave new administration that was sympathetic to any armament against Citizens. I knew it was coming but didn't know where...(having watched them try to initiate it in Idaho.. refering to the WACO thing.) All the ducks were in a row. I took a lot of heat locally when I voiced my distain until the end and everyone woke up at once it seemed. WACO was unfortunate but taught us all a lot. Bureaus and Militia alike. Illustrating forever the need for the Militia of the Constituion to safeguard against the zeal of those who would go too far. We all agree here on one thing! America's Citizens must stay armed. Constitution or no! Law or Anachary.. We are duty bound to ourselves and our country to guard our freedom with guns when paper and reason fails.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 02:27:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I won't go near the JBT/cops/Us-Them thing.......feelings here run to the strong side and I'd be banned.

I will pass on some wisdom regarding AR maintenance from another board that rivals that passed to us by Bill Rogers vis-a-vis Col.Boddington.

"You should never clean the bore of an AR15 for the 1st 200 rounds or you'll ruin the polishing effect on the chrome lining........."

Guess I f&&&ked up big time. Mine only shot 1/3 moa at 300 yards the other day. Had I not cleaned it perchance a micrometer would have been needed to verify the group.

Live and learn.
Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 02:39:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.23)

Big John - Am actually partial to the 54 Cal Hawkins myself. Bring down a buffaloe if necessary, and will split a playing card on edge at 25 yards in the standing off hand. God I love that stuff!

Bill - You know how these things go. One guy says blue and the other says azul. Both right but it sure is fun debating it. :-)

Guys go back to the very beginnning of this SWAT thread and yo will find we are all saying basically the samething and that is one reson Mike is pondering life changes. The higher ups are morons now days and if they have spent 100,000 on gear and trainig then to protect their hide they will dam well use it. Again root cause the higher ups not the grunt on the ground. Cripes, do I have the knock on the door award in my future? Already pissed in the highers wheaties this morning during a briefing. Guess I may as well go all out.

For those interested and especially those that have the TC 31-32 as their actual manual, I have the first three chapters in my hot little hands on disk and going over it word for wrod and sentence by sentence to get a good product on the streets by this summer (hopefully and if the creek don't rise). We are adding all of the latest Night vision/thermal stuff and all else that can be put in to the manual. Don't ask for copies guys!

Hold Hard guys and play nice! I do seem to have my troubles with that last one here lately.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 02:42:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.48)

Bill,
How could I not list your 97 Winchester after all the flack I gave you about my Kentucky/Pennsylvania/Ohio River Valley rifle?

The scattergun list now stands at:

Remington 870
Benelli M1 super 90
Beretta 390
Winchester model 12 Trench Gun
Benelli M3 super 90
Mossberg 500
Winchester 97 Trench Gun

Still accepting nominations and arguments for deletions.
BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Boonesborough???, OH-PA-KY, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 02:51:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.97)

Daisy Cutters 10ks rolled out of C-130s detonated at just below tree top level did BDAs and spent the night arround some major holes in the jungle.....in Viet Nam really pissed off the ants both red and black and they come out with a vengance
Doc Holliday <jaybee1967@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 03:15:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.83.14.200)

Big John; I just thought of another that I haven't seen in a patrol car lately but for years it was everywhere in departments arsenals.
The Model 37 Ithaca. Bottom eject... it worked for either hand. Was light as a feather and kicked like a mouse from Missouri!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 03:18:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

It's pretty new to make the best all time but the list isn't very long so how about the ll-87 Police model Remington. Probably will earn it's place in line pretty soon
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 03:21:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I have to toss this into the mix (sorry Rick, take deep breaths on this one):

NOAA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the people who bring you the WHEATHER, has a SWAT team! Seems our beloved federal folks want to arm every once peaceful government office.

NOAA?! I mean, come on, are they gunna shoot me for not shoveling the snow off my sidewalk? What's up with WHEATHER PEOPLE having automatic firearms?
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 03:24:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

Sorry Marius to take up so much space. But this stuff might be interesting to see where we go.
Someone suggested Top Assault rifles. Let's say Full Auto's also.
1. CAR (and similar M-16 models)
2. AK47
3. MP-5
4. Uzi
5. Thompson .45 (all)
6. M2 Carbine
7. Browning BAR
8. Sten Gun 9mm
9. G3
10.Grease Gun .45 Cal.

Not neccesarily in that order. Nominations are open. Tell me which to take off or on!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 03:31:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Rick,
No doubt the .54 Hawkins was a fine rifle, and no doubt that it was used by many a trapper to fend off Indians who didn't take too kindly to his presence there, but (to the best of my knowledge) was never used in combat service (Barring of course, mountain men being employed as scouts) so it doesn't get a chance at the list. Plus we have to remember Bill's rule against black powder, so be carefull now, or else you will be running the "top muzzle loader" list!@!

BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Even after a 140 years of the metallic cartridge, The muzzle loader refuses to die! , USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 03:38:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.97)

Well....I am going to attempt to play nice. Really!!

Bravo- I am not going to argue constitutional issues with you. I know I will lose. I do think that past precedents have something to say on that issue. But if I am wrong, so be it. I, for one, am a strong advocate of the 2nd Amendment. I couldn't care if your normal citizen owns a howitzer. Bad guys and those mentally unfit are another matter.
(and no- I am not including you in either catagory-YET! HA!) Damn dude- if I am really off base on something you can call me a butthead and I won't take it personal.

Have their been excesses in SWAT- YES. The NTOA (a highly respected Police SWAT organization) has actually come out and said this also. If there is no need to call out SWAT don't! Don't justify it by making up excuses either. All the big excesses you have seen or read about are the Federal Bureau Chiefs flexing their ego. Not the line grunt. Agencies around me will not call the FEds or the State Highway Patrol either. The Feds take over and will screw you for publicity and to shuffle off any fault. The State guys here shot a cop by accident then lied about it. No trust, no confidence. Another guy on this site can back me up on this.

Hank- if that is true about NOAA that is absolutly disgusting. Listen to me on this- this is how these weinies get more budget money and that is plain wrong. This is what is happening in some localities also. That is the root of the problem and the cause of your anxiety.

Titan- what about the two Detroit cops in jail for the subsequent death of the brother of a football pro? He was violent and tried to kill the cops and was struck with a flashlight (that I am not positive on). He died, they went to jail. WHY? They are white, the dead guy was not. Feds got involved and trumped up charges. But the retrial is scheduled on that.

Also, read your post objectively. You know what you meant but read it without assuming information. As a cop reading that for the first time, wouldn't you assume it's an Us vs Them attitude on your part?
Remember that he/she did not know the prior threads. What I am saying is that society (with the media taking the major share of blame) is fostering this us vs them attitude among you AND me. I believe it is the tactic of divide and conquer to get their liberal agenda across.

Big John- can you replace the Mossberg 500 with the Mossberg 590? Better gun....

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 03:53:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Bill,
My additions to the assault/SMG list:

H&K 53

German MP-38 Schmeisser(What WWII movie would be complete without it?)
And before I get corrected I know that Schmeisser is not the correct title!

PPSh-41 Russia

PPS-43 Manufactuered in Leningrad during the Nazi siege

Marius will probably be mad at us if we force him to do a archive every day to keep within bandwith restrictions :o(

BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Excess Bandwithville, Oh, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 04:00:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.44)

Ok the scattergun list now stands at;

Remington 870
Benelli M1 super 90
Beretta 390
Winchester model 12 Trench Gun
Benelli M3 super 90
Mossberg 500
Winchester 97 Trench Gun
Ithaca 37
Remington 11-87

And we have a motion from Mike T. to drop the Mossberg 500 and replace it with the Mossberg 590. Is the motion seconded??
Big John <BigJohn@1st.net>
Aw'come on, I know you 1920's thru 1970's double barrel lovers are out there!, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 04:36:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.44)

Folks,

Didn't mean to stir the pot with my post about LE/Military and SWAT tactics. Lot's of good respectful points of view. What pleases me is the thread from our LE brethren that it's the misconception of use and lack of understanding on the part of management that lies at the root of the problem. That coupled with the "if you gottem', you gotta use them" in order to justify them mindset. Not to mention our Federal folks who are funding and giving away equipment to the poor undergunned state agencies. Makes ya kinda sick to the stomach...

Interesting thread on rifles, shotguns, pistols, and I'll add my two cents worth on SMG's. My choices below.

Battle rifles (in order of preference):
M-14/M1A
L1A1/FN-FAL
HK G3
M-1 Garand
I'm not going to list bolt actions...to many GOOD ONES!

Assault Rifles/Carbines:
M-16/AR-15 Family
Galil SRM
AKM (40 million customers can't be wrong!)
Daewoo K2
Sturmgerwer M43/44

Pistols:
1911's/Commander and full size
Glocks
Sigs
Beretta's (some)

Revolvers:
S&W
Colt
Taurus

SMG's:
M45 Swedish "K"
Uzi (full size)
MP-5
Beretta M12
MAC-10 (Powder Springs Manufacter)

SMG's...I rate the top three as being equal based on the operator. All have relative merits. I suppress all my SMG's and have trained with just about everything out there. Including MP-40s, M-12 Beretta's, and some not so common stuff.

Again, give the operator his or her due. The are the most important part of the "system".

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 04:53:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.139)

Bill,

My subgun choice is the S&W 76. For those are not familiar the S&W is a copy of the Swedish K subgun. It is light, and compact. It can be carried in addition to a rifle. I think it was in production until about 1975. Neat little select fire 9mm subgun. You can even get a suppressor for it.

Mike M.,

Is that your pic in the NRA mag this month? Thanks for telling it like it is. I agree with you on the SWAT issue too.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 05:01:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.38)

Stan- Hopefully we can discuss this face to face drinking beer at Mike and James course.

Mike T, I must respectfully disagree, from my understanding of the ATF mandate the are a Tax collection agency - not an enforcement agency! As such they should be equipt with calculators etc. Criminals, who do not pay taxes anyway, need LAW ENFORCEMENT - and unlike Canada you guys seem to do that at the local levels.

Bill - BHP - I'd drop a lot of the rest to put it one - It is the most issued Military Handgun of the 20th cent. I'd drop the H&K USP for it really doesn't have anything that the other don't BUT... I still like the five vote idea.

AND - Although you ousted your bum we got ours back and HE has a BRAND NEW CRIME BILL

Kevin of the Great Not So White (and maybe not so Great) White North <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 05:04:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

HK and _Guns of The South_:

An interesting little piece of science fiction, but it overlooked some serious technical hurdles that would have to be cleared before the Confederacy could produce the AKM in quantity: remember, the south was in no position to produce even enough muzzleloaders, given their limited industrial base. Among the hurdles to be cleared:

manufacture of high carbon sheet steel in quantity
precision stamping of sheet steel to shape
fundamental improvements in machine tool design and methodology
chrome lining of bores, chambers and gas systems
smokeless propellant (without which the whole .30 caliber thing is a non-starter)
precision swaging of copper jacketed projectiles
drawing of solid-head cartrige cases that will take the pressure required to make a .30 caliber cartrige yield adequate velocity
coil springs! (dont think they were in wide use for some time to come)

This would require a 50-70 year leap foreward in manufacturing and chemical technology that the confederacy was in no position to make. Much of it would have been in place for WW1, but the American Civil War would be a stretch.

Top Ten or Whatever Lists:

Not sure what all of the rules are, but here goes:

Rifles:

I would add:

MAS 44, 49 and 49-56

Original, admirably simple, accurate, compact, excellent sights, robust rugged. Served the French Army for over 40 years. If they had all been made in 7.62 NATO and more people here had played wih them, it would top many peoples lists, even over the FAL and G3.

FN49:

A commercial success and widely distributed, the FN 49 became the basis for the FAL.

I would drop:

Daewoo
Valmet AK variants

Both are highly deriviative of other designs, and neither has been used by an army in large-scale combat.

Shotguns:

Add Ithica 37, sh*#can the Benellis. The worlds most overrated shotguns by far, even moreso than the mediocre Winchester 12. I'd rather have a Mossburg.

Handgun:
Anything that goes bang and I can hit with. After that, its all mostly quibbles.

More to the point on this forum:

Best/Most Effective Sniper Rifles of All Time:

M40 family - USMC (RVN-Somailia and beyond)
No. 4 Mk.1 (T)and L42 - UK and some commonwealth forces (WW2-Falklands)
Russian M91/30 Sniper - Red Army and Soviet Satelites (Great Patriotic War-RVN)
Dragunov SVD - Red Army and Soviet Satelites (RVN-Chechnya)
M21-M25-DMR - US Army and USMC (RVN-Present)
Winchester M70 Match Rifles - USMC (RVN)
USMC built M1903A1 Sniper Rifles (WW2-Korea)
M1903A4 US Army (WW2-RVN)
M1C,D and USMC M1952 Garands (WW2-RVN)
Type 38/99 Sniper Rifles - Japan (WW2)

Steyer SSGs are grossly overrated, the Valmets are unproven in combat.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 05:05:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

I am in the beginning stages of assembeling a H&K G-3 sniper rifle and need so answers. Which reciever is the best stamped or forged. Will the MSG-90 or PSG-1 barrels fit the standard G-3. DOes anyone publish a book or video on accurizing the G-3(not the standard assembley videos like in shotgun news.) Thanks in advance fo the help.
Rob <robtracy@earthlink.net>
lawrence, ks, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 05:17:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.182.3)

Wes-next time I make a long winded post how about I email it to you first? That way you can pare it down to the basics. Management issues. Even the grabbing of budget $$ to fund a weather SWAT team is an example of poor management responsability. Enough on this by me. I hope I clarified some misconceptions. Still friends Bravo? Flash, Rick and Kevin-I owe you guys a beer.
Is it just this site members or is evry one in general getting fed up with the PC bull hockey?

Now for the thread on weapon choices:

SMG -
only have experience with the MP5 and Uzi...I will take a MP5 over the Uzi any day.

Assault Rifles-
You might want to include the Steyr AUG. It is not my personal choice but it is a darn good and innovative weapon. Rusts though. The H&K 33 is good (very reliable)but fragile. Keep the M-16 family at the top.
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 05:21:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.201)

I'll second it.... my Mossberg 590 is a keeper, much more preferable over a plain Mossberg 500, IMHO.

Oh, and another FYI.....
"Bean rifle" is now used as a synonym for "bean field rifle" as in deer hunting over a bean field, BUT... that's not the origin of the term.
Back when the Pennsylvania rifle was being carried into "the West", ie southwestern Virginia/eastern Tennessee/ western Kentucky, some settlers here began making them locally (of course). One of the very first settlers in Tennessee was the Bean family, which was a famous family of riflemakers. (FYI, Bean Station, where part of the family settled, is about 30 mi west of me). They had a particular style of furniture for their rifles; their rifles were well known for their accuracy as a squirrel rifle (OH, while I'm straying... there was also a Tennessee rifle in addition to the Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle... smaller caliber, straighter stock than the Pennsylvania rifle's slightly-rounded stock).

And one last bit...
I thought that it was common-knowledge about the source of this common phrase, but today I learned than almost no one in my office was aware of the origin of "lock, stock, and barrel"; so just in case you don't know.... In colonial days, if you wanted a rifle, you had to go to a blacksmith to have a barrel made, then to a cabinet maker to get the stock made, and then to a locksmith to get the firing lock. Often someone would decide to sell a rifle, but would want to keep their especially nice lock so they would only sell the barrel and stock. So it became the norm to specify when buying a rifle that you were buying it "lock, stock, and barrel" to ensure that you were getting the whole gun. And know you the rest of the story....

Okay, I'll quit....

-Leslie

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 05:24:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.144)

Bravo: Nope, not this time.

Tom: So we're left only with equipment that has already been through large-scale combat? Should the Allies have rejected the Garand as unproven?

Bill: Keep the 11-87, Valmut, Daewoo and the wonderful old Krag. New stuff. Old stuff. Good stuff.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 05:42:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.93)

John; you got the easy list on the Shotguns and your' right we probably ought to wind it down.
Concensus time. I think John's list covers the Scatterguns!

Pistols my final answer based on on and off line reactions. Many others are noted but these brought little or no oposition. Chosen for form, fit, function & fame under fire!
Now from now till Sunday Send me your best 5 considering you would want to take em to combat! From this list or otherwise and I'll compile and publish the results.
Send me 5 shotguns, 5 Pistols, 5 Full Autos, 5 Battle Rifles, 5 Sniper rifles. IN ORDER OF YOUR PREFERENCE #1 BEING MOST PREFERABLE.
Browning High Power
1911 Colt and variants
Glocks
S&W Revolvers K,N,L's
Colt Single Action Army's
German Lugers
Walther's P-38 to PPK
H&K's P-7 to USP
Sig Sauer's
CZ-75

Battle Rifles for the same reasons.
M1 30-06
M14 .308
Fn-FAL .308
Mosin Nagant 7.62X54
AK's ALL Variants made the list 7.62X39
SKS 7.62X39
Eddystone 1917 30-06
Enfield .303 British
M-16 A-2 .223
G-3 HK

Full Autos
UZI 9mm
Thompson Carbine .45 cal
Sten Gun 9mm
Swedish K
HK-MP-5
British Sterling
AKM's all
M-16 carbines shorties
Beretta M12
MAC 10
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 05:52:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Howdy all,
Been following the posts on the Swat/LE thing. Even if you help an LE in a bad situation, your troubles have just begun. Few years back in central Texas, was a feller in his deer blind, observed a Texas Highway Patrolman pull a car over within his sight. As he watched, the escaped felon jumped out of the car and shot the patrolman. As the felon walked back to shoot the down officer in the head, The hunter did what I would have done myself, put a .30 caliber thru the felons skull at about 250 yds. When the feces hit the rotary oscillator and everyone got to the scene, the hunter was long gone. Nontheless, the feds parked a "undercover" guy in the localle for six months for the sole reason of ferreting out the hunter, who wisely kept his mouth shut. They had a warrant out for his arrest for 1st degree murder. Have not found the guy yet, thank God.
As for Waco, The guy they supposedly had the warrant for, Koresh, had gone on a 5 mile run that morning and then went into Waco to the Post office, to get his mail. Why was he not apprehended in one of these spots, away from his compound? Because there would be no good press on it!!! By the way, those tanks in the news coverage, they were mobilized out of Fort Hood, and they were regular Army. So much for separation of Military and LE against the citizens. Even if Koresh was a wacko from Waco, he is still entitled to due process, is he not? Not trying to poke anyone in the eye here, just blowing steam about the apparent excesses of some of the Clintonistas, and the appalling lack of accountability.

Rex out.
Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Tex, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 06:05:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.146.91)

P-7's:

I've owned two P-7's and for some unknown reason both malfunctioned with Blazer 9mm's. Worse yet, IMO, P-7s are apt to go "bang" prematurely when executing ultra-fast draw and shoot stages at combat matches. Why? Because the fast, four-fingered, hard-squeezing grip needed to release the squeeze-cocker "safety" could also cause one to simultaneously squeeze the trigger with the fifth finger and accidently fire the weapon.

Now before I get flamed let me add that this never happened except when executing an extremely fast IPSC style draw and shoot. But it did happen. Sure, I could have slowed down enough to circumvent this design flaw. But in the real-world of life or death self-defense would I, or anyone else, intentionally slow down?

For these reasons I'd drop the P-7 from the "best" list.

The Constitution:

Bravo, one of my law school professors once told me that, "The Constitution means no more and no less than what the US Supreme Court says it means TODAY. Not what the Supreme Court said it meant yesterday, or what it might say it means tomorrow, but what it says the Constitution means TODAY."

I don't necessarily agree, and am only reporting his statement to provide some insight into what lawyers (including prosecutors) are being taught in law school. His point was that regardless of how plain the meaning of the Constitution may seem to be, the Supreme Court is the final word on what it means LEGALLY. And nothing else counts in court.

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 07:14:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.104)

Rex,

The only reason they put a warrant out for the guys arrest is because he didn't stick around and explain what had happened. I don't believe that had he stuck around it would have gone any further, infact he would have probably been given an award of some type from the state patrol for saving the life of their officer.

Flash,

There is nothing wrong with the design of the P7, the problem was in your placement of the trigger finger prior to being on target. Something to think about, "On target, on trigger; Off target, off trigger."

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 07:55:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.209.88.116)

Thanks for all the last minute posts and mail. The purpose of the lists was to provide an idea list. Someone anticipated the 5 guns I'd take to combat drill. It's time to register the vote.
Votes will be counted if sufficient for sampling by the Florida Election Committee and I will count the results and publish them.
If your choice falls in the catagories or not doesn't matter just send it along. eg. If you vote for a Valmet AK it will be noted as a vote for AK's and a Vote for Valmet AK's. IF you get my drift. You send em I'll sort em out!

By the fact that America survived the Clintons in the shape that it did is just a testimony of it's greatness. If any of you saw the Jay Leno fiasco billed as comedy last night, it was obviously a view of the future of network television's attempt to sway public opinion to the thinking that George W. Bush is "Dumb". I found it insulting to my intellegence and George W's of course hand sure as hell out of the range of comedy. After that I turned it to Dave in time for the top 10 and found the same references. They are protected under the 1st. and I wouldn't fool with their right to say it but it's a sad state of affairs when they feel like they can influence politics with rhetoric disguised as comedy and thing America can't tell the difference. I got the impression Jay was just following script and realized where he had gone half way through!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 11:49:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

BigJohn, I have got to correct you........

That is not a Kentuckey long rifle, it IS the Pennsylvania Long Rifle.
Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
SOUTH WEST, PENNSYLVANIA, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 12:46:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

A fella told me of a similar incident that happened in Northern Utah before I got to this area. Seems it was hunting season and a bunch of good ol' boys had their pick-ups parked in a rest stop. There was also a sedan with darkened windows and California plates. A Highway Patrolman pulled in and walked over to the sedan. The window lowered and the occupant shot the cop. The cop went down and the BG got out with a gun in his hand. Before he realized that he was no longer playing by California rules, he developed sudden and severe health problems. The rest-stop emptied and no one knows the identity of the Good Samaritans.

I love a story with a happy ending.

This was supposed to be a big story locally. Again, I wasn't here when it happened.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 13:39:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.77)

National News:

Bill, the only news/political commentary channel we ever watch is FOX NEWS. FOX is the only honest, pro-American news on national TV. Dump ultra-liberal CBS, CNN, NBC, etc., and switch to FOX. You'll never be sorry.

SWAT today:

I just watched the last two of the Texas seven being taken into custody on FOX NEWS (about 4:30am PST). It looked like there were at least two SWAT teams involved: FBI SWAT and loacal SWAT. What I'm wondering is why SWAT didn't quietly unlock the motel room door and go in after them while they were still sleeping? Instead, they apparently called them on the phone and asked them to give up. Not having all the facts, I'm presuming there was a reason for phoning ahead.

This is a prime example of the type mission that should be delegated to SWAT, and they handled it just fine.

Byron,

You are right about keeping your trigger finger off of the trigger until ready to shoot. That's not what I was describing. I was referring to ultra-fast draw and shoot situations where you have to shoot close-up BG targets as quickly as you can. In those cases premature discharges can accidently occur with P-7's.

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 13:42:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.110)

Well, I cast my votes with Bill, we will see what weapons reign supreme.

On the LE/Military thing, I have to put in my 2 centavos. The only issue I have with the high speed "swat" teams that many PD's have is the level of training.
The ERT team in my local PD Trains twice a month. Now, coming from a MEU SOC back ground, that is nowhere near the level of training that is required to effectivley deal with a serious raid/hostage situation.
Hell, as a civillian, I put more rounds down range that most of the Response bubbas in my town. That is not to say they don't have a couple of shooters. But still, 2 or 3 days a week, hell even even a full week of training does not keep you on the ball.
Most PD's don't have the budget for ammo, overtime etc.etc.etc.

Just my opinion.

Later Dudes (and Undudes)

Oh yeah, I'm heading down to Quantico for OCS, talk to you guys and gals in 10 weeks. Anyone on the Virginia area, drop me a line and we'll link up for a few tall frosty ones.
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 13:46:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.146)

Byron,

Picture yourself facing an armed robber who's got the drop on you from 5 feet away. Now assume you somehow "know" he's going to kill you whether you surrender your money or not, so you decide to draw into the drop and take your chances. In that type situation can you picture yourself keeping your finger off your P-7 trigger until AFTER you have acquired the target?

Having investigated quite a few real life shooting situations, I can certify that when facing an armed, close range enemy you will almost certainly draw and shoot as fast as humanly possible. Which means you will not be wanting to take even a split second longer to shoot than necessary. That being the case, your finger will almost certainly be on the trigger as soon as you clear leather. Which, with the P-7, can cause a premature discharge due to all your fingers instinctively tightening around the grip at the same time, including your trigger finger.

Try 50 or so maximum speed draw and shoot drills with your EMPTY P-7 at a close range, belly to belly target and see what happens. If you don't get any premature discharges you probably aren't drawing and shooting fast enough to save your life in the type situation I described.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 14:20:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.110)

I see several comments on seating the magazine well on Rem 700 BDL's.
I drilled a 1/8" hole in either sice of the magazine box about 1/2 " above the bottom edge. That lets me insert a pointed object in the hole and pull the edges of the box together when the well won't seat in the floor plate/trigger guard.
Good Luck-
Felton <corbett@orbitworld.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 14:24:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.158.39.227)

Flash-

That exact situation has occurred when the New Jersey State Police went to the P7 series some time ago. Several troopers would up with self inflicted leg wounds.
I believe they recently switched to the S&W/Walther P99.
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 14:24:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Titan and others, yes I have had a problem with my Tactical Email, some goof, me, messed it up and lost about thirty emails. My work schedule changed and I was away at school for two weeks so everything is screwed up right now. I have many slings made but need to crank out some cuffs. Get ahold of me Monday and I will set you up with slings. I will be at the office making slings all day Monday.

Last on the SWAT issue. Look I am a little touchy on this because it seems everytime someone screws up all teams get painted with a broard brush. Some of you have issues and some experience in this area, but let me tell you how it works in most agencies, I mean local not Fed's, You get a location and a bad guy. You have a check sheet you have to fill out and points attached to the answers based on threat assesment. When you have answered all the questions you have a point total. The total number will fall into one of three catagories. 1. No SWAT. 2. SWAT only on Commanders orders and 3. SWAT Mandatory.

This came about by mistakes over the years. I am all for SWAT but like anything else in LE I beleive F.. with the folks that need to be F..'d with and leave the rest of the folks the F... alone. This is one reason I went nutts over the use of a Fed Swat Team to get the kid in Miami. Most screw ups lately have been by the Feds.

I think teams should be Local if the departments are large enough, then regional/Co., then state and last should be Feds. The farther you get away from the community you work in the more likely screw up happen and the more likely we get a destroy and burn attitude from the team members. That destroy and burn attitude has no place in LE.

Enough said on the issue.

Flame, keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire. If you think you have an advantage, you are wrong in just about every reasponsible instructors opinion that I know. I guess Cllint Smith, Jeff Cooper, Louie Awerbuck and many other could be full of it but until I see different I will go with what I have used for 20 years. Every time I have seen someone stage or place the finger on a trigger before needed it has ended badly.

Undude
Mike Miller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 15:00:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Keep your finger off the trigger till your ready to go. Great rule but the chances you'll make a mistake increase with the situation and the speed. That's why the Glock trigger is so good for this high speed mode. You can make a small mistake during acquisition but it won't fire unless you move that lever out of the way and complete the travel. If you do then you might shoot yourself.. plain and simple.
It's embarrasing to shoot yourself but it's deadly when someone else does. There is a trade off here. The faster you go that more you trade safety for speed. That's why they have snipers. So they don't have to operate up close and divide seconds into thousands. Mil Dots into 10ths is a lot easier. Sure quick draw is damned dangerous but it
Beats getting a 12 gauge in the face up close cause you can't get yore gun out! A P-7 Squeeze Cocker is a nice gun and it shoots great and draws fine at normal speeds. Probably fine in a shoulder holster...but still a little hazardous when the time goes down. Notice I didn't say it was a "slow weapon".. It would be February before the storm died.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 15:42:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Quick review of the four rules:
Rule 1: All guns are always loaded.
Rule 2: Never allow your muzzle to cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Rule 3 (Also known as, "The Golden Rule".): Never touch your trigger until your sights are on your target.
Rule 4: Always be certain of your target and everything in line with your target.

There are no exceptions to these four rules.

Is there some disagreement concerning Rule 3?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 15:49:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.129)

Well, I see that others have long since corrected the "long rifle" thing. Guess that's what i get for reading when I get a chance at work. I'm almost caught up, can you guys slow down a little?
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South West , Pennsylvania, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 16:08:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

MIcTac - I treated one of those NJ state troopers with a "P7" leg wound. He was sitting in his car when it happened. He was a real nice guy who made a mistake while handling his weapon...it had nothing to do with a "panic draw". If you want to do research, it was at mile marker 35 Eastbound Rt 78...

Flash, your professor is wrong about who determines what the Constitution means. I reserve the right to think for myself and act on those interpretations. If the Supreme Court determines that it is lawful for your professor to enter my home and harass my family, his point of view will get him killed. This is a country of the People, for the People.... when the Supreme Court no longer serves the People, they will be in violation of their charter and thus will be a domestic threat.

Rex - can you cite more facts on the case where the feds parked an "undercover" to catch the citizen that shot a criminal to save a cop. I doubt the completeness of your account, but if in fact it is true, I plan to generate a public outcry to have the "fed" decision maker fired. That just sounds too ridiculous to be true.

To the person that corrected me on the M4A1, stating that it is the removable handle variant.... Thanks, that answers my question.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 16:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Jim- relax...I believe you on that one. No need to assume I would doubt you.
I actually was referring to the transition training when the NJSP first got those weapons.

Thinking about the Fed undercover issue....it is my understanding that there is no federal murder statute, therefore any jurisdiction/investigation lies with the empowed state/local authorities..hence a possible legal problem with the story.
Bravo-backup on this?
Mike T <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 16:41:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.187)

Undude, my last SWAT observations too:

Most of your SWAT comments are well taken and I don't think we disagree on anything major. I too thought the Miami Federal SWAT raid to grab the Cuban kid was ill advised to the point of gross stupidity. Especially since it involved so many officers (+/- 160?), wasn't even a criminal case, and could easily have resulted in the deaths of innocents, ala Waco. But isn't that what we all came to expect from the likes of Janet Reno and Bill C.? Let's hope the new admin will clean house at Justice, etc., so we can all rest easy and be free again.

Finger on trigger question:

Undude, I am not advocating finger-on-trigger draws except in belly-to-belly, gun in face, life and death situations. I've taught combat pistol shooting to several hundred people and always instructed them to keep their fingers outside the trigger guard and off the trigger until ready to shoot. That is the safest, most correct way to do it 99% of the time. However, as with all generalized "rules", there are exceptions. And drawing into the drop at belly-to-belly range is one of them.

My original point wasn't that finger-on-trigger draws were to be preferred. Rather, my point was that the P-7 has a design flaw that can result in fastdraw AD's. This flaw has apparently been substantiated by the New Jersey State Police, according to Mike T.

The American Flag:

Recently someone commented that for the first time in 8 years the American flag looked again. To that pertinent observation I just want to add a big Amen!

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 16:52:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.99)

Corection:

Gosh-darnit! That last post should have read:

"...for the first time in 8 years the American flag looked GOOD again."

I'm out of here while I can still see.

Flash

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 17:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.99)

CDC and Proven Equipment:

You said:

"Tom: So we're left only with equipment that has already been through large-scale combat? Should the Allies have rejected the Garand as unproven? "

Well, they certainly should have asked some hard questions, and rightly so. To that date and indeed, for some time into the future, no attempt at developing a satisfactory self-loading rifle for general issue had been sucessful. They had a right to be sceptical and *were* skeptical. Its just that free is an awfully hard price to beat.

For purpses of this "All-Time Greatest Hits" list, I feel it best to stick with combat-proven gear. I certainly dont do any different for selecting my own gear.

-Tom
TOm Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Columbia, SC, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 17:05:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

Flash,

I believe you are confusing what may happen in the heat of battle vs. how you should be training with side arms. Like others have indicated, the trigger finger stays off the trigger until the gun is on target. The point being is to start the training at a slow pace, don't try and do it fast, DO IT CORRECTLY. The more someone has practiced correctly they will begin to see the speed increase. This is because it is becoming a trained reflex. Once the procedure has become inbedded in the brain, you can start working on speed but NEVER COMPROMISE THE PROPER PROCEDURE. If you start building in exceptions as you have stated, then the shooter has to think about which move he is going to make and this will slow down his ability to react to the situation and may contribute to his demise. If it is trained and practiced correctly, as others have noted, it is no faster to have your finger on the trigger before you are on target, only LESS SAFE.

When shooters don't handle there guns as they should, be it long gun or handgun, that is when they shoot themselves or unintended targets.

I will probably mis-quote this but, "It isn't necessarily the fastest gun that wins the fight, it is the most accurate!"

SAFETY FIRST

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 17:20:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.244.74.76)

This is fun Keep them Ballots coming in! We'll have absentee ballots next week! Instead of hanging chads we got hangin clips!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 17:26:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Tom: Fair enough. We are all free to choose according to our own criteria. The Valmut strikes me as an AK that has died and gone to Heaven, so it would make my list. And I shot some 'practical-rifle' matches against guys who shot Daewoos. If those guys were at a disadvantage, it sure didn't show.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 17:45:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.124)

Gent's......

On the SWAT deal, Undude, you are right on...........

Locals should take care of LOCAL problems......

Why in the H***, the FBI, and The ATF get involved in local criminal cases, that do not involve explosives, or illegal weapons, or kidnapping, or crossing state lines, is beyond me.

Leave the jurisdictional issues to the area's / authorities involved, and keep the NON locals OUT.......it always ends up piss poorly.....(i.e.) DEATH's.

On the topic of the Constitution, this document was / is a "STATIC", document....
It was never our old dead white men founding fathers intentions for this to be interpreted subjectively.( tounge very much in cheek).

This is the main reason we are in the damn mess we are/ have been in for the past 50 years......

"On every issue/ question that relates to the Constitution, WE ought ALWAYS go back to the Constitution, for it's interpretation."

Interpretation by liberal ideolouges, have taken us down a path never intended, and as such, as another poster said, "Any law that is contrary to the Constitution, is NO LAW, and therefore is Null and Void, and should NOT be obeyed".

To do otherwise, is to be a treasonous action, and those who subvert it for the causes of political expediency, or any other, should at the very least be removed from office.

They have broken their oaths of office, and are no longer fit for the position.
As to the Constitution meaning "Whatever", the judges say it does, I say BS.

I'm not saying that's not what is happening, because it is, I'm saying it should not be so, and it's OUR fault collectively for allowing it to continue......

Bravo, sorry, they also drew me out!!!!!!

Just more than I could stand.......(:@)

One Shoe
Lost the other
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 18:35:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.83)

Real Life gun-in-face reactions:

My email has been down forever, so here I am back again due to not being unable to do any work today.

I have been confronted by BG's pointing pistols at me from "touching distance" 3 times in my life. The first time I didn't draw with my finger in or out of the trigger-guard. In fact, I didn't draw at all. Instead I instinctively reached out with both hands and grabbed the BG's gun and gunhand and then proceeded to fight for control of his pistol.

I eventually won and took the pistol away from him. However, I made myself a promise then and there that never again would I do that, and mentally practiced grabbing the BG's gunhand with ONE hand (instead of two), and drawing and shooting him with the other hand (I always carried a duty pistol strong side, and a pocket pistol weak side, so I had a pistol available for either hand).

Well, that seemed to solve the problem. At least in my mind it did. Then another BG shoved a pistol in my face, and despite all my good intentions and mental practice I still grabbed the BG's gun with BOTH hands! And darn if I could talk myself into letting go long enough to draw one of my pistols!

Third time, same thing. Bad juju all over again!

The moral? When facing a BG with a gun at point blank range in the real world, good intentions and training go out the window and SURVIVAL INSTINCT takes over.

Take my word for it boys, if it ever happens to you and you do actually draw, you will forget all about good intentions and safety rules and will be trying to shoot the SOB as fast as you can get your finger on the trigger.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 18:35:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.99)

New Winchester Primers-- I just started using the new Winchester WWLR Primers, the ones with the brass finish. Are these smaller in diameter that the older WWLR'S? Suddenly about 20% of my brass has loose primer pockets-all brands--new and old cases.
Has anyone else experienced this problem?
Felton <corbett@orbitworld.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 19:17:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.152.241.215)

The Constitution II:

Boys, recent US Supreme Court challenges regarding election questions should have taught you something. Namely, that when it's all said and done the US Supreme Court does have the final say L-E-G-A-L-L-Y. That is not to say that the Supremes are always morally, historically or intelectually right, or even that their decisions are honest. But their decisions are always the "final word, legally".

Now you can say, "Well, to hell with that! I'm my own final word on the Constitution!" And so you are, as far as you alone are concerned. But as far as the United States legal system is concerned, the US Supreme Court is legally THE FINAL WORD ON THE CONSTITUTION, not you.

Bear in mind that neither the lower courts, the prosecutor or the cops are going to pay one bit of attention to YOUR definition, no matter how historically, morally or intellectually "correct" they may privately think it is. All that matters to them LEGALLY, is the US Supreme Court definition.

Your own personal constitutional definitions don't count any more than your personal opinions on other questions count. Why not? Because everyone has private definitions and opinions and the country would be in chaos if there wasn't some way to reach a FINAL decision as to which ones were LEGALLY correct. And like it or not, the US Supreme Court is the final constitutional arbitrator, LEGALLY.

That means if you want to stay out of the slammer you had better know what the law is according to the Supremes, the courts, the prosecutors and the cops. And piss and moan all you want to about how they are all wrong, like I sometimes do. But until the rules are legally changed, that's the way it really is.

Want to have a little free fun Bravo? Go to loislaw.com and sign up for their 10 day free trail, which automatically defaults to 20 days. By doing so you get almost unlimited free use of a top level, computerized, legal research tool for lawyers that will enable to quickly research in depth any US or state case law questions. You can even run searches on people's names and if they have ever been involved in US or state supreme court cases their cases will pop up.

This tool will enable you to research law, and case law, about 1000 times faster than doing it by hand at a law library. Have fun!

Flash

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 19:23:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.99)

Felton,
Are you sure there WInchester?? I have never seen brass colored Winchester primeres but they may be making them now. They sound like Remington primers and if they are, that is a common problem with the Remingtons. I can push about half of their primers in new Remington brass with my thumb. I quit using them because of it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 20:09:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Kevin says "from my understanding of the ATF mandate the are a Tax collection agency -not an enforcement agency! As such they should be equipt with calculators etc."

Not quite....the ATF enforces a TON of criminal law, especially involving firearms. Mainly, they oversee the proper behavior of firearms distributors and dealers. They also investigate firearms violations on the part of the general public (illegal conversion to full-auto, suppressor creation/possession, and the like). These are all crimes as spelled out in Title 18 (and other places on the books) of the United States Code....however poorly it is written.

Additionally, there are a ton of firearms laws that are not really "enforced" by any agency except for federal prosecutors, including sentencing enhancements for "use" of a firearms during commmission of a federal crime....

just my $.02

dan-o
dan-o <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 20:23:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.122.196)

I know this is something probably lost somewhere in the archives, but if anyone out there has chronographed any recent M852 from a 26" bolt gun, I'd be curious to know the result. We can't seem to get any right now from the state, and my partner and I are planning on shooting the Tennessee State Nat'l. Guard Sniper match in April(with their ammo, of course) and I'd like to load us up a couple hundred practice rounds. I have a chrono, I just need a ballpark figure to shoot for velocity wise.Any help would be appreciated.
OUT HERE
C.Jamison <Longshot1000@yahoo.com>
TN, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 22:29:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.119.88)

To Simpson re: Guns of the South
According to the book, the guys from the future brought stuff with them, (I guess thaey bought it cheap on sale.. from Russian and Ygoslavia and China). Exactly same comments were stated in the book when Gen. Lee have asked the director of Richmond arcenal about reproducing the load and gun...
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 22:33:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.11)

For you reloaders of .300 Winchester Mag out there, what Redding bushing size are you using in your neck die? I'm using a Rem. Sendero with Winchester brass. As I've noticed many questions go unanswered on this forum, in order to ensure an answer to this question please "pretend" the following:
1. I'm the "good" Jen
2. I only dabble in .300; my real love is the 6.5x.284
3. I'll be using the rifle as a DM in a Marine platoon
4. I'll always carry my 1911 when using the rifle, backed up by my Glock (but only because my BHP is in the shop)
5. When not using the rifle in the DM role, I'll use it for SWAT (but only if its really, truly necessary)
6. The rifle will wear the "UnDude's" sling
7. I will not let any alphabet Feds fire my rifle, especially if there are mothers, kids or dogs around
8. I will give free bravo brew (my recipe) delivered to the first guy who correctly answers my question
9. In addition to enabling me to get the correct bushing size, answering my question will enable me to calculate the spin drift correction required when using the rifle at ranges in excess of 1,000 yards
10. Finally, I won't have to go out and buy the expensive mike to measure the case neck thickness myself
Rob K <rkinz@ipa.net>
MO, USA - Wednesday, January 24, 2001 at 22:59:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.80.222.11)

Flash,
Understood and agreed, thank you for making my point.
Right is wrong, and wrong is right...........
Bottom line, as I stated earlier..........it's OUR fault that the laws are the way they are..........
Can't dispute this, it's a fact.
Just like when you hire a lawyer, he's not working for you, he's an agent of the courts.
His/Her, first responsibility is to the court........not the client.
See anything wrong with THIS picture boyz and gurls???.
We, as American citizens have abrogated our rights, in other words, we have allowed the inmates to run the asylum.....
We get the government we deserve......

No Shoes
Now their both gone
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 00:26:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

Flash,

I too have had those training hyperspeed shots with my old P-7. But it was "I'M gonna kill that M$%^& F*!@#$% ()*() before he kills me".
I always figured it was either advanced teutonic engineering or me getting sloppy with trigger discipline. Convulsive Grip Ergonomics? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Never shot crap like Blazer through MY P-7, or any of my pistols, or revolvers, NEVER WILL! so I can't comment on that one.

Problems with any firearm and ND's can be traced to training or lack thereof. NJ and H&K's, Dee-Cee and Glocks, whoever else and GLOCKS>>>>>>>>

Janni,
Got the book TODAY AWESOME!!!!!!!!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 00:33:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.43)

Bro Two Shoes: Yup, you're 100%. We get the government that the masses deserve. Sometimes it's hard to look at myself in the mirror, because I'm not as "hard corps" as Jefferson, for instance, was. All of a sudden I'm remembering Walden and Thoreau. "What are you doing in jail my friend?" "what are you doing NOT in jail?". If I were more the man I *SHOULD* be, I fear I wouldn't be welcome even here. Brings to mind what Ben Franklin said when a lady asked what kind of government they had instituted. He replied that they had given the people a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC (note, no mention of democracy) FOR AS LONG AS YOU CAN KEEP IT. Big words for the most intelligent man alive.

Rob K (the good Jen in drag): I neither load for nor shoot the 300. Sorry.

Dan-O: you're right, kind of. The powers that congress have are concisely spelled out in the US Constitution, article 1, section 8. If you can tell me how they managed to lawfully (without breaking amendment 9 and 10) enact title 18, then I would surely love to know.

Flash: close, but not quite. The SCOTUS is *NOT* the final word. Read the Federalist Papers, and you'll understand. Also, if you want to go into this *IN DETAIL*, I'll be *HAPPY* to. Let's just take this into the Patriots USA site, as to keep the others here happy. Been there, took up bandwidth. Besides, the current court system is FAR removed from anything constitutional. So why not explain how someone can be found in contempt of court for exercising jury law nullification! There was an "out" left so that the *PEOPLE* are *ALWAYS* the final word. ALWAYS. In short, Patriot Jim is 100%, and 100% legal as well.

Felton: my new Win bronze colored primers have been good in rifle and pistol.

Mike: you're 100% "backed up". The only place federal authorities have jurisdiction is federal territories. Thus DC, all military posts/bases, federal parks and lands, and of course post offices. In general, federal buildings are CONSIDERED federal territory, but really aren't. As for still being friends, heck, you know I'd be proud to share a fox hole with you anytime!

Same for you Kevin of the GWN, looking forward to having lots of Bravo Brews with you and talking fun stuff as well.

Patron Mike: Again, HOUAH! You are, literally, the epitomy of what "should be" in the police ranks. Unfortunately, I don't think the rest (especially management) are up to your spec. But then again, you're primarily a "keeper of the peace", not someone "politically motivated".

Since it's soooooo relevant to what we're talking about lately, *PLEASE* take a look at:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?21451
I promise, it's worth the read, and in my mind, is a good explanation of "the times".

With reservation of rights, and without prejudice
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
NOW QUIT THAT, you're drawing me out!, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 01:27:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.187)

To the various gun lists

91/30´s are still in use by Russia, also in Chtechenia. Some snipers there like the bolt action better on long ranges than the Dragunov.

SSG´s were used extensively by Israeli troops. Whether they were any good I can not comment. In police use they have been widely used all over the planet but that is not combat as in military combat. And they are in use in S-America by various military and paramilitary groups.

If all weapons that have not seen real combat should be dropped, then Steyr AUG and HK 36 series should be dropped too. I guess they are not in the lists any more.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 01:54:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.7.31)

Hexa; nice to hear from you! But just the battle rifles have to have battle ribbons. The rest of the lists are just general combat like we have here in America was the context. You know like airports and

Walmart's and subways! That sort of thing! Don't be so long between posts!

Trigger rules; I love those rules of engagement if you'll pardon the expression but if there wasn't some incidents of TRIGGER rule violations here and there and all that. Couldn't we just remove that safety from that 1911 and speed it up to Glock warp! Someone said a while back that if you use the safety it proves you don't trust yourself!
Just kiddin you underage kids reading this old Geezer is just being facicious. So Lito' don't try that at home OK!

The gun Erection is going well! Can stand more ballots yet! Ah so!
Velly good Exercise, Ol Grasshopper gonna publish your gun on the bottom if you don't speak up! SC regulars say @#@$@$!%%!! WISH HE'D GET THIS OVER WITH!

Rob K, you get the comedy award! I wish you would write for Jay Leno and Dave Letterman to replace their GW is dumb jokes.. But in the words of the crotchety host Larry King, "what is the question?"
Never mind!

Ok you guys! I'm taking the high road on this consitituion, LE SWAT discussion, if someone will e-mail me and tell me what it is!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 02:27:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Long time lurker here, I had to speak up.
We just had a "Meth lab" busted a few miles down the road from me.
According to the local paper, The County Sheriff, the County SWAT team, a couple local agencies, and one officer from a local agency that I think is in another county raided a small farmette.

What you really had was a small house in the country, a guy that's been in a little trouble before along with his wife, and they are the party type. I don't know if they actually made some meth or if they just had some ether and stuff and were talking about it, but these were not heavily armed felons we are talking about.
The raid netted two of the three people named in the warrant, a shotgun (I believe possesed legally) a half ounce of marijuana (a personal stash) a scale, and some "materials", (probably starting fluid...everyone around here has some in the garage or the shed)
I don't know how well trained our SWAT team is, but I am willing to bet that some of you old heads would and could serve that warrant, put both perps in a car, and searched the house throughly and completely before locking it up and heading into town to book them for misdemeanor possession of marijuana.

Everytime you have a loaded weapon pointed at someone, there is a risk. I do not believe that this situation warranted that risk. A third person named in the warrant that the media said was "on the loose" heard about the warrant and walked into the station and turned himself in. I personally knew this third person, and although he is not someone I cared to be friends with because of his lifestyle, he was by no means a violent person. Yet, had someone turned him in, he would have woke up that night to an MP5 in his %@^(*( face.
I am a 100% law abiding, patriotic American citizen, and yet thanks to this trend I am afraid to shoot and train with my preban CAR-15 in my own back yard at a rapid fire pace because I fear my neighbors down the road may mistake the sound for full auto fire, or the DNR plane with the State Troopers along that overflys my house daily and shadows my friends when they leave or the National Guard Hueys and Blackhawks flying marijuana surviellence may mistake my preban for an illegal LE only, and I may be the next one to wake up to that crashing door. That would really get me in trouble if someone were to come through my door with a weapon pointed at me and no visual or verbal ID.

If a report came in to the County 911 dispatcher that someone was shooting a machine gun over at the neighbors, do you suppose they would send a pair of deputies to the house of a law abiding citizen with no record? No way. Too bad because I would probably offer them some venison sausage, offer them my rifle to shoot, and invite them to my next barbeque. But we can't have that. Hence my belief that SWAT, when well trained and used the way they are intended (I.E. as a LAST resort) can be a great tool, but is overused and more of a harm and dangerous to the ordinary citizen when abused.
(RESPECT THE CITIZEN)
(INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY)
(QUIT OPERATING AS THOUGH EVERYONE THAT'S NOT A COP IS A BAD GUY)
That said, I also have the utmost respect for the law and those tasked with enforcing it.

Sorry for the rant people....got drawn out by the thread. Some of my outsider beliefs and conceptions are probably off base, but I am sure I will be told about it!!!
I shoot a Savage 110FP, a CAR-15, a Kimber 1911, and an HK USP...I must be making SOME good decisions!!!
Shotguns, how about the Rem 1100? I use one with a few different barrels...bird hunting, deer hunting. With the 20" rifle sight barrel makes a great house gun. Had it out pheasant hunting in a snow and ice storm, the gun got so jammed with ice I couldn't open the action to unload it, but it still shot and cycled(with a clear barrel of course!!!). It has never jammed in 5 years of hard use with skeet loads to sabot slugs.

Back to lurking and learning. Sorry about the long post. Anyone around S. Wisconsin want to get together for some serious shooting?

OUT
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
Southern, Wisconsin, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 02:36:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.136.125.129)

Geoff M: Good post. Don't be a stranger.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 03:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.66)

Bravo,

I merely stated that COngress has enacted these laws. I will never say they are consitutional, but there are arguments as to why they are. First, COngress has the legal right to restrict interstate trade , and the Courts have allowed Congress WAY TOO MUCH freedom in what falls under "interstate commerce." Additionally, the Congress has federalized a TON of crime that is exclusively (in my mind) the domain of the States. My general belief is that the federal government (ALL BRANCHES) have gutted the 9th and 10th amendments like a late spring small mouth. Those two amendments are DEAD. The fight to stop an activist federal government is actually most viable on these grounds though, as the recent Printz v. Arizona (overturn of the interim mandates of Brady)decision indicates. THe tenth amendment was used to justify protecting states from being ordered by the Fed how to spend their own money.

I will never say all the U.S.C. is constitutional, merely that it exists.....as for how we change it, that is another question entirely.

As an aside, anyone who shoots, appreciates good beer, and listens to Jimmy is a good guy.
dan-o <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 03:11:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.181.153)

I have said it before and I will say it again. Stress makes digital dexterity go away. This means the finger is either full ON or full OFF. Once the finger hits the trigger it is being compressed. It had better be on target. As Mike stated, staging was a fad for the revolvers and it is a bad fad when done not aligned with the target. If it is pointed at the target great! If it goes boom, then the target has a crappy hit, but it is not a hit on something else.

Squeeze cockers are a way to get the New Jersey HP to change weapons, they had more ADs with those things. However, to be fair, New Jersey the brunt of the hit on the Ads with the weapon, only because they fessed up. Others had the same problem. On the bad side, they still put their fingers on the trigger when they should not.

Undude – Deep Breaths! You are with a large organization that has established parameters. Now if only the Feds would do that. Man in a couple of years you will have my wrinkles, NOW that is a scary thought!

Mictac – Of course, why would we not be? As has been stated, airing of opinions and whether the same or opposing does not preclude friendship. When all is said and done, we drink a beer, laugh over the fact that actually we were very close in agreement and only x,y, or z got in the way.

Byron – You are correct on the fastest versus more accurate. Watched a moron with a .25 cal fire 6 rounds at a guy. He missed every shot, the other guy fired one round deliberately and wasted the first guy. Distance between the two, the .25 cal guy standing over the other guy with the winner lying on his back at the feet of the first shooter. Not quite belly to belly but close enough.

Dan-o – I was gong to stay out of this on BATF because they are, in my opinion, an illegal operation gone from bad to worse and even the FBI do not want any dealings with them. They are NOT LEA. They are a regulatory Agency and Tax agency. They create the regulations to cover the gaps caused by a moron in congress that wrote a bill that is Code and unconstitutional. They may investigate regulation infractions of said code but they are supposed to use local LEA to enforce, NOT ram doors because some yoyo thought he saw and illegal weapon. They are not to issue wrong info on purpose, as admitted by BATF agents, to have someone’s door to knock down. They are not to fiddle with an individual’s AR15 until it doubles and then charge him with possession of a full auto weapon. The same goes with the M1A , that I can get to double any day of the week as can anyone who has shoot rapid fires with them. They are not to lie about “drug labs” so as to get Federal aid in the form of US army helicopters and tanks for an illegal rais. Which was for the press show, so that a big nosed country crook could pass more restrictive gun laws. Thus allowing them to harass more citizens. They are an agency out of control at most levels! Breathe Deeply Boucher!

Crap, got pulled in again

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 03:29:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.26)

Stupid questions I know but....

Can anyone tell me the name and link (www address) to that shooting game online? You know the one that lets you practice mil'ing out targets and doping wind?

I cant seem to find it and dont really want to read the whole damn DR all the way back to last year...

Someone send it my way please.

Thanks!

dakotaaviator <dakotaaviator@hotmail.com>
Grand Forks, ND, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 03:40:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.129.136.133)

Finger off the trigger..... Whether in training, competition, or defensive shooting, a ND is still a ND. Irregardless of the situation, a shot not on target accomplishes nothing... To Quote Tom Campbell, " You can't miss fast enough to win"..This applies to the street as well as matches, and is an unarguable fact..So train hard and often and make rule 3 part of your character. IMHO, if you can't work at speed with your chosen defensive sidearm without having a ND you need a different gun, more training,or more practice...And you've gotta know your limitations, so work with a timer, it keeps your performance in perspective and keeps you honest....outa here
Markwell <rkwell@hardynet.com>
Still laid up in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 03:54:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.192)

Lady and Gents,

I hate to bring the list back around to the topic of guns and ammunition when y'all was havin' such a good constitutional debate going, but...;-)

Longshot asked if anyone had ballistics for M852 from a 26" barrel bolt gun. Here is the load used and velocity for those that might be interested in (pardon me!), Sniper Stuff(tm)...

Rifle: M40A1 clone w/26" Obermeyer barrel...

7.62 X 51MM(Nato)
M852 (LOT# LC 83D180-014)
168 GR SIERRA BTHP MATCH
VELOCITY: 2,692 FPS (10 round average)
Hope this helps, hold hard, good luck.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 04:05:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.35)

Master Rick, I can only say Houah! You have DEFINATELY earned your Brew tonight! Just wish it was the real thing, personally delivered by yours truly. The fact that some folks don't understand the constitution, as clearly as it's written, astounds me. An honour to know you!

Dan-O: thanks for the kind words, and you're exactly right. It's the judiciaries fault that things aren't right. If we had a more "energetic" supreme court, they would knock down approximately 100% of the laws passed annually. But we don't, and they're not up to snuff either. At this point though, I'd like to mention that the case you sited was heard on a very SELECTIVE basis. They didn't want to hear the entirity of the brady act, as then they would be forced to overturn it or backpeddle on why they reversed SCOTUS precident. So they just ignored the problem, and looked at the cash issue only. Nothing new, they've been in practice of ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in their livingroom for well over the last 100 years, effectively. I can't help but believe there is a special level of hell waiting for just them.

Geoff M: don't be such a stranger! What an intro to posting ;-)

And just so everyone knows how I *REALLY* feel HA! Talked to Patron 'Lito tonight. He's "infected" me with the thoughts of a truly superior caliber. I'm not backpeddling on the gas gun versus bolt gun deal, it WILL be a bolt gun, but now the question of caliber raises it's UGLY head. Not to mention I don't have NEARLY enough loading equipment. Man, you guys are gonna make me jump through hoops until I puke. Right? HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly another banana republic, peoples socialist states of Amirika - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 04:30:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.94)

Folks,

How about we list the current weapons we are using, as a matter of interest. It can be duty weapon, personal/self defense, or something more "mission specific".

My personal duty/carry pistols is/are:
Colt 1911 Stainless Commander .45 ACP(Custom)
Glock 23 .40 S&W (Short and Weak)
Browning Hi-Power 9mm (Cylinder & Slide Custom)
Glock 36 .45 ACP

Battle Rifles:
M1A
L1A1

Carbines/Evil Assault guns:
Colt AR-15 Ltwt. Carbine
Upper for same set up for CQB
Galil .223

Shotgun:
Scattergun Tech 870 14.5" Entry gun(brings new meaning to "knock, knock")...:-)
Mossberg 590

SMG's:
MP-5 9mm with Raptor Suppressor
Uzi w/suppressor

Tactical Rifles:
M40A1 clone w/26"Obermeyer Barrel .308 Winch
Chandler Super Sniper 6.5 X .284 Winch
Still NEED a supressed .308!

As a trainer I see all kinds of interesting equipment. This is what works for me.

Now, do we want a go for ammo selection?

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 04:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.35)

Wes...good idea:
duty/carry pistol- 1911 Colt Govt. or Commander/ 45ACP[custom}
Battle rifle-M1A
Carbine- Colt 6721 tactical carbine/ Aimpoint Comp

Shotgun- 14" 870/ Vang comp bbl./Ghost ring sights

SMG- H&K MP-5

Tactical rifle- 700PSS
700LTR

Special purpose sniper[porch, street. and other lights]---AWC supressed RRRRuger10-22.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Laid up and tired od loading in the Alleghenies, WesWEsWV, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 05:03:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.192)

DakotaAviator (Roster Hog Formerly Known as CRC): Shooting game link:

http://www.shooters.com/stewartwilson/rangegame.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 05:11:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.111)

Primary:
Kimber Stainless Custom Classic
.45ACP
230 grn HydrShoks

Backup:
Taurus Model 65 Hammerless (for the time being)
.38 Spl
110 grn CorBon
changing to Glock M36 .45ACP

Long Gun:
Remington 870 Mag Express

Tac Team:
Will soon have M-4 Carbine
(praying for a Bushmaster)

Other:
M1 Carbine
and a whole host of others to choose from :)
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, Tx, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 05:23:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.48)

Hello everyone.
OK there Bravo I saw your post Rifle/Carbine
I had mentioned this before and I have done a little more research so I can talk a little more about this.
by Definition a rifle is A firearm having a rifled or spirally groved bore, fired from the shoulder
By Definition a Carbine is a Light wieght, short barreled, rifle originally devised for mounted troups.
Well I have done further research than this and found that what the dictionary says can be confermed. When the original carbines were first produced they used the same rounds as the regular infantry, but they were lighter and shorter barreled. This made handling easier on a horse, but they still used the same ammo. So this talk I have heard in the past about carbines being low powered compaired to the "full sized arms" is false. I also know from personal experiance that there are some firearm makers that produce a carbine of the 30-06, 308, 270 etc, with a 16.5 inch barrel. If you dont believe me you can just check the ruger page. I believe that the above mentioned rounds would be considered "high power"
Now also I cant remember who said it in the past, but someone said that the 7.62x39 has more in common with the .30 carbine than it does with a 308. well this is most deffinatly false. the 30 cal carbine has more in common with a pistol. infact, that is what it was designed to do. the 7.62x39 is disigned to act more like the 30-30.
I am simply pointing this out, because just saying yuck a carbine" simply because you believe that a carbine shoots a smaller bullet is false, because a carbine can be high power, just as a full sized rifle can be low power. I have a friend with a 30-30 bolt action with a 22" barrel.
I dont think that anyone should downrate a carbine on this page, just because it is a carbine. I know this is the sniper page, but a large number of sniper shots are taken within 200 yards (the range of a 7.62x39 if you sight it in at 100 yards, but you can do the same thing with estimating distances on a carbine with a scope that you can do with a regular rifle, allowing you to get about 400 yards out of the 7.62x39) or with a .223 that has about a 250 range when sighted in at 150 yards, but then again with the 223 carbine you can get 500 yards. Now I am not trying to downplay the importance of being able to shoot 1000 to 1500 yards, but I believe that carbines also have there place in sniping.
Hope everyone enjoys
Charlie

Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
Jonesboro, AR, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 05:37:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.191.243.9)

Wes, - Marius is going to hate you!

Sniper Rifle (that is after all why we are here Right?)
Jerry Rice Nighthawk Remington 700 in AICS Leu MKIV M3 - Badgers Rings and Mount
Battle Rifle
FN C1A1
Assault Carbine (just for you Stan cause it ain't a REAL rifle HA)
Colt M4A1 Carbine w/ NSN ACOG, RAS, M203 and other goodies
Diemaco C7A1
SMG's
Got out of them, M4 can do anything they can do and better
Snotgun
Scattergun Remington 870 14" Entry Gun
Pistola
Novak 'Spec Ops' BHP (work done by Kurt Wickman)

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 05:45:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Charlie - Carbine for Sniping?
Not if you can help it. Ideally the sniper wants to take the shot from the furthest he can and still make the shot in order to limit the effectiveness of any enemy fire. Even in Police sharpshooter situations a .308 is prefered - 5.56mm and other non-Battle rifle rounds tend to deal with intervening media very poorly. Thus imagine the 5.56 armed sharpshooter having to shoot through auto glass to neutralise a tgt - bad juju even with .308. A 40gr HP will splatter on the windshield and SS109 cannot be guaranteed to provide rapid incapacitation.

On Ammo
.308 Fed GM2 175
5.56mm - Hornady 40&60gr TAP & IVI C77 (SS109)
12 ga. Fed LE 000 Buck
9mm Fed 124gr HydraShok or Fed 9BPLE 115gr +P+
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 05:55:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Dakota; the page www.shooterready.com/ is what you seek.

Keep sending your top 5's choices for shotguns, Sniper Rifles, Pistols, Battle rifles, Full Auto Assault rifle/pistols.
It's taking shape but I need more input to make a significant sample!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 06:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Wes,
Great idea! I've been trying to keep out of the Contitutional thread, ever since that delivery van with "Al's Truck Firm co." painted on the side has been parked outside my house. BTW Why does the ATF co. delivery van need all those antennas and a satellite dish???

Anyhow, back to the tools list...

Pistols:
Para Ordinance P-14 Limited
Sig Sauer P226

Battle Rifles:
M1A Springfield
Colt 6601 Pre Ban (H bar A-2)

Evil Assault Rifle:
Recently filled this void with a DPMS "Sweet 16"
Currently selling DPMS "sweet 16"

Scatter Gun:
Remington 870 Police 18" -w- extended mag
Benelli M1 Spuper 90

SMG
Wife kinda layed the law down on this one :o(

Tactical Rifle:

Reminton 700 action tuned & trued, Clip slotted for a D.D. Ross one piece steel optical platform -w- 30 MOA increase. ~ D.D. Ross one piece steel trigger guard/magazine port. ~ D.D. Ross heavy scope rings (six hex screws topside, two 12mm nuts on side, each piece) ~ McMillan A-2 stock with saddle. ~ Douglas premium air gauged #5A contour 1 in 10 RH twist. ~ Topped off with a Leupold/Premier Reticle Vari X III 8.5 x 25 x 50 side focus. Haven't had her out past 600 yds yet, but averages about 1/4 to 3/8 MOA. (If I'm doing my part) Best group to date 3/16 MOA. Only downside to her is that the wife says that it's uncomfortable when she is in bed with us.

Primary Tactical Mission for above hardware:

Groundhogs

Big John <BigJohn@1st.net>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 06:19:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.12.90)

Bill Rogers: A couple of months ago I promised to remind you about John Ashcroft of Missouri. Consider it done!

COLT Gold Cup "Trophy"
COLT HBAR (MT6700) 20" bbl.
WINCHESTER M70 "Stealth" .308 Win.
LOUISVILLE "Slugger" (All original, untouched by batsmith)

Several good discussions goin' on. Keep up the good work folks.

From one of the threads, it would seem Remington and Sturm Ruger are the only American owned major firearms manufacturers left. Not that it really matters, just something to go "Hmmmmmmmmmm" about.

PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 06:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.78)

Big John, I know I have come to rely on my Mossberg 590, so here's another vote for the 500/590 series. Also, i remember reading a book called "Point Man" where chief James Watson, a founding member of SEAL TEAM 2, used an Ithica 37 duck-billed, and #4 hardened lead shot during the mid 60's in VN with great success, so i feel we should add this ole' war horse as well. THANKS
Longrifle <longrifle30@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 07:01:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.186.204)

Longrifle,
We turned the list over to Bill for the purpose of scoring. Email him { brogers@elkhart.com } your "Favorite Five of five" catagories Shotgun, Sniper Rifle, Pistol, Battle Rifle & Assault rifle. And to all you slackers out there who haven't....Your a hanging chad!!!
BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Don't be disenfranchised! Vote now!, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 07:18:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.53)

Bravo, can you please email me the web adress of patriots usa?
thanks
Gavan Willis
gavan willis <gwillis@dragnet.com.au>
damn hot , downunder, socialist reoublic of oz - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 08:18:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.26.198.62)

Guns in daily use:

IWB carry...Sig 239, Hogue rubber grips, nite sights, 124 gr ProLoad +P 9mm JHP's & FMJ's, half & half (I may have to put down wounded big game with FMJ head shots). This is the most accurate, reliable box stock compact pistol I've ever owned.

Truck/travel/woods gun...Savage .308 Scout, conventional Redfield 3-9 AccuTrac scope, Harris bipod. Defense load = 150 gr SGK handload @ 2650fps (1/2 MOA). Hunting load = 165 Nosler Part @ 2700fps (1 1/4 MOA).

Open country big game rifle...Rem 700 BDL 7mm Mag, Burris 3-9 scope with lighted 1 MOA dot, 160 gr Barnes-X handloads @ 3060fps (slightly under 1 MOA)

Long range target rifle...Sendero SF 7mm Mag, Tasco Super Sniper 10x, Leupold LR mount and rings, Harris bipod, 168 gr SMK handloads (1/2 to 3/4 MOA five shot groups with almost every load tried so far. Several smaller sub 1/3 MOA three shot groups may have been flukes)

Home defense...Remington 870 12 ga riot gun, 18" bbl, custom screw-in full choke tube. Will put all nine 00 buck on an IPSC target at 50 yards.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 08:26:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.90)

like the sight alot.im in the paras and under going sniper training.
well done guys
chris jones <psychobush@another.com>
huddersfiled, w yorkshire, uk - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 08:37:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.250.100.112)

talk about scared a person i no bought a SKS loaded it with 10 rounds pulled the triger the dam thing malfunctonen.all 10 ccsings wer in the air bfor the first one hit the ground.I live in the country and hav had several people ask me what wase going on.seams like every nabor for 5 miles heard it .The person took the pease ove junk back to the dealer fore a refund.Since this happened i limet shooting to 45apc only.
Ther's somthing about a full auto sks that scares the h--- out of me but the BATF and FBI scare me alot more.I dont want those people knocking on my door let alone kicking it in.I figur by now thay have got my phone taped and a sattlelite traned on my house.

Steel nerves and a straight shot.
BUD
Bud <offah@hotmail.com>
Greens Fork , In., USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 08:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.106.153.55)

Does anyone out there have a Savage 110 in .270? If so what mods have you made? Should I shorten the barrel? I want to camouflage it but don't know if I should get a synthitic stock. I basicly want the best sniper setup for my money. HELP!!!
Sierra1Alpha <sierra1alpha@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 09:47:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.210.159)

MESSAGE TO SITE OWNERS:

JUST AN IDEA BUT YOU GUYS SHOULD START YOUR OWN SHARPSHOOTERS ASSOCIATION OR SOMETHING. MAYBE A MEMBERS AREA. THE DUES COULD HELP PAY FOR THE DOMAIN. EMAIL ME IF YOU DO.
Sierra1Alpha <sierra1alpha@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 09:49:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.210.159)

Wes, I will agree with everyone that this will be interesting.

Duty Pistol - Glock 22

Combat Pistol - Colt 1911A1

Combat Rifle - M4 carbine, Back up's - Berretta BM-59, AR10, M1A

Shotgun - Benelli M3

Department Issued Sniper Rifle - Custom Remington PSS with 24" Hart Barrel, Jewell trigger. Badger Mounts, Leupold Mark 4 6x, Armour (me)

Personal Tactical Rifles - wont list them all, its an insane amount. will list my favorite 3

1. Remington 700 SA, 308 win. Obermeyer 1-11 5R SS AMU Taper. Badger Everything. Mcmillan M-85/Mchale stock. NightForce NXS 3.5-10x50 Built By Me.

2. Remington M-24 SWS. Built by me and Marty (Mr Badger Ordnance)

3. M40A1 as issued (yes even the scope) built by me.

Extended Range Tactical Rifle - Remington 700 LA 338 Lapua. Accuracy International Barrel 1-10 Stainless. Mcmillan M40A1/HTG Stock OD Green, Sunny Hill Steel Custom trigerguard. w/Weatherby Mag Box and guts. Badger Muzzle Break, Badger Rings And Base Nightforce NXS 5.5x22 x 56. by me as well.
George Gardner <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 10:17:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.49)

My vote for the well armed:

Pistol:
Kimber 1911 5" 45ACP, Novak ghost ring night sights, flared mag well, tuned.
Sig 239 40 S&W, Hennie straight eight night sights, short trigger, tuned.

Shotgun:
Rem 1187 18" cylinder bore, extended mag tube, ghost ring tritum sights, synthetic stock.
Perazzi 28" O/U - Sure looks pretty.

Battle Rifle:
M14, FN/FAL

Assualt Rifle:
Colt/Bushmaster M4 flattop. 14.5" barrel permanent flash suppressor( a class III would be nice if possible) and an array of goodies.
AK 47 folding stock.

SMG:
Swedish K 9mm, Thompson 45 ACP. (Don't own, have used)

Sniper Rifles:
AWC M92 308., 24" Krieger barrel, jewel trigger, A2 stock, US Optics SN6 10x.
McBros 300 wm, 25" Schnieder barrel w/vias brake, jewel trigger, a4 adj. stock, jewel trigger, US Optics SN 6 12x.
Wby 33/378, 27" Shilen Barrel w/vias brake, Canjar trigger, McHale adj. stock, US Optics SN3 3 x 17.

Hunting rifle:
Win pre 64, 338 wm, Hart 23" barrel w/KDF brake, McMillian fiber grain sako stock, tuned trigger and action, Schmidt & Bender 1.5 x 6.

These are a few of my favorites out of the 50 plus I own. Hope to add the 6.5-06 sniper rifle in the near future.

TonY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 12:06:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Roosterfarians,

Please include serial numbers with you preferred list's, don't concern yourself with address's, as they are readily available:)
Mr. Ken, can furnish those on request.
Just a fleeting thought.

DUMMY
To arms, To arms, their coming!!!!
Can't be the Brit's again, their Parliment took their's away!HEHEHE!

Dummy <N80762@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 13:55:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.58)

Thanks guys. The people on this board seem to be of the type that deserve mucho respect. It is a privilege to be acknowledged by such men and women.

Weapons in use:
Home Defense/carry around the farm.
1. Large Male German Shepard.
Mods: One nut missing and one ear that doesn't lay right.
This dog was going to be destroyed by the kennel that bred him. He seems to make up for his genetic chortcomings with great intelligence.
2. Remington 1100. 20" bbl and rifle sights. Used inside only when I am home for longer periods of time. We have young nephews around sometimes, and then all the long guns are locked up, and I go to:
3. HK USP9. Easier to store safely yet have access.
Load: Remington 124grn Golden Sabre.
OR
4. Kimber Custom Classic.
Mods: Wood grip panels and beveled mag well.

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
Packer, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 14:07:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.136.125.137)

Paul;' I gotcha, you were right on.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 14:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Darn, my list is WAY too skimpy to put up here compared to everyone else's, but I reckon I will anyway.... (I guess that I can look at it as that I have a LOT to put on my wish list!)

PRIMARY HANDGUN
Para-Ordnance P13-45 (and I added an Ambi-safety for my left-handedness)
185gr gold-dot hollow points

PRIMARY SHOTGUN
Mossberg 590, parkerized finish (not a speedfeed stock)
12 ga, 2 3/4" OO buck, and slugs

PRIMARY SNIPER RIFLE
Savage 110FLP .308, Leupold Vari-X III Tactical 3.5-10x40mm (non-LR M1/M3 variety), in Burris Zee rings (gotta love no-lapping!)

!NEED! TO AQUIRE list
M1 Garand
M1A/M14/M25 variant
Rem 700 for a M40A1-type project, but in 6.5x284 instead
a Glock (just because....)
AR-15 variant (I feel naked w/o one)

!WANT! TO AQUIRE (want it, but not a 'need' like the others)
HK MP5-A3 ($$$$ that my wife spends instead... :-(
Browning HP 9mm
M249 SAW 5.56mm (yeah, right! "Uh, yes, I need a pallet of, uh, belt-fed 5.56 ammunition, please")
S&W Hand-Ejector 2nd Model .45 (a classy revolver...)
Walther PPK, blue not stainless, in .32 (for my James Bond impersonations)
amongst others.....

Oh, for completeness, I've got my grandfather's bolt-action Winchester single-shot .22 from around 1939 (Can't remember the model # off the top of my head... it's the one with the crome bolt, safety and all in the bolt, trigger is a simple catch-release lever... very plain-jane, but sweet...); and my other grandpa's funky Winchester lever-action .22 WinMag (nothing like my dad's Winchester 94, but it's ideal for popping stray cats that terrorize my wife's fraidy cat...).

Back to work....

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 14:26:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

Dummy,
Same thought occurred to me. Does that make us both dummies?

Tony,
Perazzi? Yeah!! Beats my SKB OU anytime.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 14:31:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.87)

Wes,
I got a call from my shooting partner, who is a predator control officer for the state, and he said that they are killing a bunch of deer for deprivation purposes. They had four of them get across a river and they couldn't get close to them. So he took out his range finders and his 6.5x284 with 120 Sierra pro hunters and killed all four of them with four shots. The first was at 493yds and the last was at 530yds. He said they all dropped in place except for one that walked a short distance and died.

He was pretty impressed with the performance to say the least. Jacks a hell of a shot and does if for a living and it takes a lot to impress him. His rifle is the one I originally had with a 1-9 twist and the tight chamber that wouldn't shoot the Norma brass without pressure signs so we had traded rifles. He uses it for long range shots on coyotes but says, "What a deer rifle this thing would make"!!

Yote Bait,
I won't list a lot of different guns and confuse you, I will just give you what I would take if I had a choice to pick and had to live by them.

Pistol- Glock-17 in 9mm because of ammo availability.

Shotgun- Benelli with ghost ring sights and cut down barrel.

Battle Rifle- M1-A (With Brookfield mount and Leupold LR) as a back up
for sniper rifle, or a AR, M-16 clone.

Sniper Rifle- Remington in 308 with custom barrel and stock, Leupold
LR with mil dots.

Nothing fancy but I would not be afraid to bet my life on any of them. I would be able to shoot all Nato ammo and would feel that I would have a weapon to cover most any situation.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 14:32:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Just my votes:

Pistol:
1911 Govt Model

Battle Rifle:
M1A
M1 Garand (gotta love that '06! )

Assult:
never fired one...

Shotgun:
Rem 870
Mossberg 500 (with the 16.5" bbl it makes me sleep better knowing it is in the closet with a box of '00' buck nearby)

SMG:
I wish...but I'd love to get my hands on an M1A1 Thompson!

Tactical:
PSS .308 with Mk4 M3 10X, Badger base, Mk4 rings, Redfield Palma rear sight, Olympic front sight, soon to have a Rock 5R bbl, and thinking long and hard about an -A2 or -A3 stock.

I'd like to add a category...Service or Match rifle:

Service Rifle:
The Garand gets the most style points and gives the most warm fuzzys, but a prepared AR will put your name nearer the top of the board.

BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
TN, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 14:40:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.23.180.130)

Rick, let my hair stand up for a minute. Thanks

On what weapons I have in use:

Pistols,
1. Sig 226 in 40 cal. Dept. issue have to have one for teaching range training. Nothing wrong just not what I like
2. Two HP's in 40 cal. Very nice light carry guns
3. Para P13 worked over by George Gardners friend and fellow smith Fred. Off duty powerhouse
4. Kahr9mm for back up
5.Glock 22 for a throw away. Sorry Bravo
6. Kimber Covert for serious dress up occassions
7. A Para P14 Fred is building into an HRT Pistol for me.

Shotguns:
1. Remington 870, 18" bbl with Ghoast Rings and mag extension.
2. Super90 for speed needs.

Battle Rifles:
1. M14 type love it
2. 16" FAL wish it has an 18" bbl

Carbines/Assault type rifles:
1. M16 M4 favorite
2. M16 A2 next best thing.
3. Nothing else exists

Sniper rifles:
Medium class
1. M40A3 style built by Jerry Rice one with Nighthawk and one without With US Optics SN6 scope
2. M40A1 (The Rock)style built by George Gardner with 22" bbl.
M40A1 is my favorite police and have to carry sniper rifle. M40A3 is my all around field/multipurpose rifle when shots are over 800 yards and I dont want a magnum With Mk4 M3 scope

Longrange carry:
1. Rice built 300 Win. This is good to go out to 1200 yards. USO SN6 scope
2. H.S. Precision 338 Lapua. Big Boomer and you can go to 1500 yards with this one.
3. Gardner built, well soon to be built, 338 Lapua. This will probably replace the HS Rifle for my long range needs.

Big Stuff, I mean 50's

1. Gardner built Navy Pattern McBros take down. Fine weapon
2. Barrett XM107. Best all around 50 I have ever used.
3. Barrett M99 economy big big boomer and shoots under 3/4moa
4. Barrett M82. When you just have to get a huge headache fast. This is the way to go. A great squad type weapon
5. Serbu 50. This is a new economy 50 that I have not completely tested so no testimonials.

Now if I had to take what I could carry in the truck it would be:
1. M4 M16
2. The Rock
3. The M40A3
4. The XM107
5. The Rem 870
6. A 22lr rifle
7. The Para P13 until the P14 is done

If I had to take what I could carry on my back
1. M4 M16
2. The Rock or the M40A3 rifle either would work well, just depends on which one I can grab first

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 15:04:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Wow, the tab button doesn't seem to do what I thought!!

Anyway, Load for Kimber: Regular Remington commercial 185grn. hollowpoint. Has very forgiving ogive. I shot the 200 grn. "flying ashtray" in my Kimber, and had maybe 5 jams in 100 rounds caused (I feel) by some poor quality surplus mags. But I like the extra margin of safety.

Evil rifle (I refuse to further validate the conjured up term "assault rifle")
Preban Colt Carbine, telestock, .223 ltwt 16" and A-1 sights.
Load: South African 55grn ball. Lots of brush around my place.
If the attackers are antis, no ammo. I would just slap in an empty 30 rounder and wave it at them. Geez, can you see it? Omigod, big clip, flash hider, pistol grip. They get all red in the face, eyes pop out, they start crying for the nearest legislator or reporter.
I wonder if that could be considered a "sporting purpose"?
If I am really defending myself with this, the fight is outside and things really aren't going too well.

Battle Rifle:
Unfortunately, I do not have one, but I feel that my Colt would serve in a pinch due to it's "crossover" ability. In my price range, (hold your hat) SKS. Most reliable and hittable simple little .30 cal weapon I ever shot. An SKS board I found had a discussion on if you could rebarrel an SKS in 7.62x51. Now THAT would be cool.

Subgun:
I agree that the Colt type Carbine will do anything the subgun can do, and better (proper ammo for the task of course). Besides, my wife will want a new car by the time I can afford that cool new USC40.;)

Precision rifle:
Savage 110FP .308. Kind of a mutt with a Harris bipod, Burris mounts, Luepold rings, and a (Geez I going to cause a heart attack here yet) Simmons Pro 50 3-9X50. I am relatively new to long range shooting, and before anyone takes exception to this choice, let it be known that this rifle is better than I am, therefore, a better rifle will result in nothing. In the future, I will be bedding a section of square aluminum in the forearm and relieving the barrel channel a little better, and probably going to a Tabasco Super Duper Scope. That's not until I can shoot the red balloon out from underneath the blue one while they blow in the wind at 250 yds.

No one has mentioned KNIVES!!! What's a good gun without a good knife? My choice is a $40 Gerber Gator Serrator. Kraton handle doesn't slip in blood water or mud, matte serrated blade, holds an edge nice, doesn't rust, corrode, or complain, and is super tough. I am hard on this knife. Only drawback is I plunked down my money 5 months before they introduced the thumbstud version. (ARRRGGGHH!!)
Anyone ever drill a hole in a knife blade and install a stud?

Man, I gotta work on making my posts shorter!!
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
Packer Country, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 15:20:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.136.125.133)

HA! This is ALMOST like counting votes in Florida (only thing missing is the butterfly ballot) but it's working! Trying to separate it all. Keep em coming I can handle it.
HEADLINE
SWAT team DEPLOYED in Wichita KS. Some dude with a Shotgun baracaded in his apt. near Schools that are now cancelled. HO HUM! Surely they can handle one dude with a 870.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 15:39:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Gezzz UNDUDE.... You'll need an 18 wheeler to carry all that stuff.

As far as what has to be carried on my back, The Kimber would do me fine. The M4 with a carry handle and the 16 lb 308 would be enough to have to hump. But then that's mission specific along with everything else. And lets no forget the 5 20s..

Knives:
Fixed blade: Randal F1 5" or Randal 6" survival for a pack knife. A 4" Dozer in a kydex wrist sheath would work well if you have to jump from the prone position.
Folder: A benchmade 4". Lots of good ones. Emersons are good too.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 15:50:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Dummy and CDC:
I used to think such, too, but a)it's probably assumable that there would be a firearm in any of the homes of those who post here; b) looking at my list, I've got nothing to hide from any bad-gun-grabbing types(bolt-actions, a lever action, a pump, and a pistol), nothing that isn't sedate compared to a lot of others...; and c) just through general discussions and posting on this site someone could do a search and fgure out what you probably have; and d) there's still a paper trail that would be followable to find me and the guns I have, except for the two that were my grandfathers'...; and e) I'm having' fun....

Geoff M:
I've got a Gerber Serrator, got it when it first came out, good knife, stays in my to-go pack. Smoky Mountain Knife Works sells thumb-studs for knives that are basically the knob with a slot cut in it so it sits down over the back of the knife-blade, and has a little hex-head screw that tightens it down... I installed one a month or so after getting the knife, and have no complaints about it.

Tony Y:
I keep a Benchmade mini-AFCK in my pocket all the time, along with a Swiss Army knife ("A pocket knife for every pocket" I always say!). Also have multiple K-Bars, a Gerber 9" BMF, a Cold Steel Mini-Outdoorsman (the perfect knife? Almost!), Spydercos, a couple of SOG-tools, assorted "buck knives", a cheapie tanto (disposable), a scalper, etc etc etc...

Snowing here enough to make the planned fieldwork for today a scratch til next week (not "fun-related fieldwork", work-related around coal-mine investigations.... ) so I got to post again... nothing else on schedule...

Anyway....

L8R,

-Leslie

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 16:29:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

Cop's personal guns?

All I can say is you cops on this list sure must get paid a LOT more money than I ever did!!! (Especially Undude!) Thinking back the most guns I can remember being able to afford at one time while still on the job was:

AR-15 (personal SWAT rifle)
870 riot gun (personal squad car trunk gun)
Colt LW .45 Commander (concealed carry)
S&W airweight Bodyguard (pocket back-up)
M1 Carbine with folding stock (stake-out gun)
TC Seneca .45 (black powder deer and wild hog hunting)

How much do Police Sergeants make now days???

BTW, my 26 year old kid is in Chicago, is an ex-Marine, has a clean record, and needs to make a final occupation decision soon. What is police starting pay now days? Maybe I can talk him into following in dad's footsteps? (Back in my day we didn't care what the pay was, but now days younger people do.)

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 17:08:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.79)

Excuse my posting here vise the Emporium, figured someone might want to pick up some sights on a whim.

Quick note to anyone looking for Redfield International or Palma rear sights. Champion Shooter's has a small stock of these available per phone call several minutes ago. Cost $125.00 for International and $195.00 for Palma. 1.800.821.GUNS

V/R

Dave King

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 17:42:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.166.157)

Well, I don't really rate an opinion but here it is anyway:

1)Kimber Stainless Target- 185 GRN Hp
2)Bushy 16" M4// or my "built" A1 Carbine- SA 55grn/det IOR 4X24 M2- Fed. 55 grn hp
3)George Gardner trued,barreled-22" 5R/ M40A1 with 3.5X10 M3 LR
4)870 18" Scattergun Tech upgrade- Slugs/ 00 buck
5)STG 58 ARMS dustcover and IOR 2.5x10 MP8 in ARMS rings-Port. 147 grn FMJ
6)RUUUUGER 10/22 T/laminated- CCI SV

If anyone would like to amend my puny choices...donations are eagerly accepted!
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Amnesiatic, Confused, VERY country... - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 17:48:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

Ohmygod! The Kabars are comin out! Don't you grunts know better than to bring a knife to a gun fight!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 17:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Personal weapons........

You should add 'SENCO' to the list. Several months ago a cop in Denver planted a nail in his head, while attempting to hang trim.

Obviously not aware that Darwin, and the four rules, always apply.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 17:50:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.1)

Bill,
Don'tcha know, K-bars are quieter than an M40A1, and they don't run out of bullets! ;-)

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 18:07:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

OK fellow hogs, need advice:

McMillan All steel REM trigger guards - good, bad, or ugly. Compare with Badger and DD Ross for price, availibility, and durability ~ will it pass the "three ball bearing rule"?
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South West , Pa, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 18:29:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

Flash, Chicago PD starts at 38.5K, and goes up to 41.5k after training. Maxes out at 56k after 10 years IIRC. Only problem is you have to live in the city. But CPD is hiring just about anybody with a pulse and two brain cells to rub together. What was his MOS? We always need competent grunts here. If he works out in Echo Co,after a couple monthes I can get him into the platoon, if he's interested.

My basic load is this:
USMC M40A1(yes, a honest to goodness real one) or Win M70 in 7mm, depending on whether it's business or personal.

M4 flattop with Reflex II on an ARMS rail with flip up irons.

either M9(work) or Kimber 1911 w/tritiums(play) in a SOE thigh holster on a SOE rigger's belt

Safariland Cover 6 vest with the class IV plates(yeah, it's heavy but hopefully the other guy shoots COM. This is a personal thing that normally stays in the car or house.)

GI LBV with 4qts water, 6-30 rd M-16 mags in mag pouches, butt pack full of survival gear, Goretex parka and E&E stuff, LBV pockets are full of 60rds 7.62(7mm Mag)ammo in Federal sleeves, cammie paint, basic rifle cleaning gear, pen flares, signal mirror, a couple Power bars, and a squad radio. Knife is currently a Gerber Mk1 for stabbing, hanging on the SOE riggers belt. Plus have a Benchmade M710 in right pants pocket and CRKT Kiss in left pants pocket.

Bellows pockets are full of maps, radio sheets, gun data book and Silva Ranger compass. Steiner 8x30 binos around neck under cammies.

Ruck full of all the mission critical gear, plus snivel gear. And maybe ammo, pyro, smoke etc. PRC 119F radio, spare handset, spare antenna base. Anything else needed.

I'm sure I left out something. Oh well. Semper Fidelis...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 19:09:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)

All right, since everyone else is "doing it".
Pistols: Glock 17, the elusive 100% 1911A1, CZ-75 and the Browning HiPower
Revolvers: S&W L frames, and Colt D frames
BATTLE carbines: the custom CAR, the custom mini-14, and the folding stocked M1 carbine
battle rifles: M14/M21/M25, FAL, Garand, and the StG/HK-91. And yes, I'd carry that Garand any day.

Unfortunately, that's all I feel qualified to speak about on weapons.

Charlie: I started to give your post a miss, but don't want anyone to think I'd "snubbed" anyone. So here we go. *SEMANTICS*!!! You're right. A carbine is a short, light rifle. I own the Mauser carbines, one is specifically the cavalry carbine you referred to. And since it *DID* see war, why don't I call it a "battle carbine"? Note, the only one speaking about "carbines" is you. I refer to "BATTLE carbines". Here's the history on that nomenclature! The Germans, being the (as a blanket statement) rather intelligent folks they are, figured out that a 9 from a subgun wasn't ideal in combat. So they came up with a "short 8", a shortened version of their battle rifle round. This SMALLER, LESS POWERFUL, NOT FULL RIFLE CARTRIDGE and the weapon designed for it came to be known as the "sturmgeweher". Or "storm rifle". Where "storm" is used as "we will storm that position". Since it's awkward in English, "storm" was replaced with "assault". As in "we will assault that position". Thus, assault rifle. The ruskies churned one up because they learned from the Germans, thus the 7.62 soviet. And we learned from both, and came up with the 5.56 NATO. *ALL* are WAY underpowered in comparison to a battle rifle round like the 7.62 NATO or 30M1 (30-06). Thus, the term "battle carbine", "tactical carbine", the new vogue, or "assualt rifle" to politicians. However "battle carbine" is the most correct, as the rifles aren't usually full rifle weight or length, thus carbines. Now then, since you and I have tread this ground before, and nothing has come of it, if you want to correct my nomenclature, please do. However, it would be more useful to correct it at it's roots. So write up your statements of why the nomenclature is incorrect, and send them to the person who taught me. You can get him at:
Jeff Cooper
Gunsite
2900 West Gunsite Road
Paulden, Arizona 86334

And no, I won't give you the phone number. Sorry, but I tire of treading the same area (actually getting called on the carpet) for the same thing when I have good reason to say what I do. If you want a "second opinion", as CDC, he knows more on the subject than I do.

Gavan: click on my name, it'll take you to our web presence

Dummy: who cares?! If unannounced company comes, they will understand to whom the name Dummy really should belong.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, on a rant, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 19:11:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Ref: Weapons of Choice

Sorry but I gotta say it,
"I vant a plasma rifle in the 40 vatt range"

Ref: Bragging Up the Boy

Sunday morning Andy and I went to an indoor silhouette match. Using his .22RF hand-me-down Mossberg bolt rifle Andy shot the highest score ever shot at the club by anyone, adults included.

Because he is only 15 the rules required that I stand behind him at the firing line. He hunts alone, has been to Storm Mountain three times, reloads his own ammunition and can fuse a Claymore in the dark but rules are rules. Go figure.

The Claymore thing is a joke. I make him use a flashlight.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 20:24:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

OK guys what are Bloop Tubes?

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 20:51:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

Carry on your back field rifles:

Undude, did I understand you correctly? You carry TWO rifles on your back in the field? An 8-10 pound M16 and a 12-14 pound M40 sniper rifle?

With pleanty of ammo for each, I'd guess that package would weigh around 30-40 pounds? Considering that you would also need +/- 80 pounds of food, water and additional field gear, wouldn't you have to take prisoners just to have porters?

Why not carry just one all-purpose scoped M1A, G3 or HBAR in the field and cut the weight in half?

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 20:57:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.68)

Ken M,

He was a grunt, a machinegunner. He went to Africa but didn't actually see combat.

Unfortunately, he just recently bought a house in Streamwood. Would that disqualify him? Or can he wait and move into the city after training?

He's had the same dead end job for 3-4 years now. I've been trying to talk him into doing something meaningful with his life, like becoming a cop, but so far he hasn't gone for it.

How about emailing me your name and phone number and maybe I can get him to call you for a Devil Dog to Devil Dog sales pitch? I won't give the number out to anyone else.

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 21:28:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.68)

Lists of the best weapons. My version: The best is always on top

Shotguns:
Mossberg 590A1
Rem 870
Benelli M1
Rem 11-87
Benelli M3

Battle rifles
Stg-58 (Metric FAL)
M-14
G-3

Pistols
Glock 17 or 19
CZ-75
BHP
1911A1
Makarov

Full-Auto
Rk95 (Sako-Modified Valmet)
G36 HK
G41 HK (the 5.56 version with M-16 mags)
M-4
Mini-Uzi

Sniper rifle
M24 (.308)
Sako TRG-42 (.338 LM)
Accuracy International (.308)
SVD (7.62X53R)

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 21:39:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

LeMay asked, "OK guys what are Bloop Tubes?"

A bloop tube is an extention to the barrel to increase sight radius sometimes used to tune the harmonics of the barrel vibration to shrink group sizes. a target shooting widget.

Or the barrel of a M-79. ;-)

That's my guess, I'll check PS magazine.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 21:51:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Flash: Its a Car 15, or whatever they're calling those little shorty carbines these days. It couldn't go over 5.5 lbs. Its not slung on the back, but rather carried in one of the ready positions for self-defense while moving. If you went to a dual-purpose weapon you would lose some long-range effectiveness. Not my cup of tea, but I can see how it would work for Mike.

Bravo: I'm going to have to disagree with you. I DO NOT know more about it than you. You summed up everything I know about it.

Bill:
Pistol__________1911
Carbine_________AR
Shotgun_________Rem 11-70
Battle Rifle____M1A
Sniper Rifle____Win 70/Loopie LR M-3 .308

Bunch of boring stuff, huh?

I can't give an informed opinion on the Sub-Guns.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 21:57:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Steve,
As you can tell by my above post, I'm rather partial to D.D. Ross products and services. I have one of Dan's trigger guards on my Remington 700 and am so impressed that I would own no other. And as it appears, neither would the Marine Corps. They are using his trigger guard and optical platform on the new M40-A3 and are stamped with the Federal stocking numbers. I don't believe that you will find those on the Badgers! To boot, the Army has requested a modified optical platform for evaluation on the M24 SWS.

I have been dealing with Dan for well over three years now, and have found his products top notch, services first rate, prices reasonable for the quality retuned, and his knowlege of his skill immense.More than once he had talked me out a crazy idea I had, and the one time I didn't listen to him and forced him to do it my way, while as I was explaining what went wrong, he just politely reminded me of who told me that there was a better way. DOHhh!

I know that he does have trigger guards in stock and ready to ship. I'll refer you to him if you want it installed or a full rifle upgrade.

His Email is DDR2122@aol.com
Phone 330-725-3032

Big John <BigJohn@1st.net>
USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 22:42:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.12.242)

I can't stand idly by with the tone being set here by comparing bureaucratic Federal Agencies in the same light as local law enforcement. People, and not "them" and "us", often forget--all groups forget that cops are civilians too. Any cop that refers to "them" as civilians, has forgotten that they are doing a job for the people and are not a military organization. Read this quotation carefully, all arm chair quarterbacks:
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

Support law enforcement. Protect and serve.

Maybe we can talk about some fine rifles and long range shooting now.

From a family of protectors and servants, Chuck

Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Deep South, Kalifornistan, Barely in the USA - Thursday, January 25, 2001 at 23:23:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.102.182.132)

Lemay; during Korean war "bloop tubes" was a term given to mortars. If my memory serves me? Perhaps there is a later day definition but that's all I ever heard. M-60 was it?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 00:23:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

ACOGS-
looking at testing these out (again). Any preferences or features you hogs have had experience with? Good or bad?

And no, this is not going on my sniper rifles.

thanks-Mike T

PS- Geoff, merely as friendly advice- try calling up the shift commander/road supervisor on duty in your area. Tell him what you will be doing and shooting (all legal I assume). Ask if they want to come and see that it will be in a safe area without any danger to the public. That way when the busybodies down the street call in, your LE response will probably be very different from your fears. If the cops do show up after the neighbors call (or to check out the range hazards) this time have a couple spare boxes of ammo and targets to share!
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 00:56:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Wes-
thanks for the data, It'll get me in the ballpark. Now I guess I'll play everybody else's game even though I'm not as well endow...Um, I mean as rich as some here.

Pistols
Duty-S&W 4043 with all forged firing parts(no mims)165 gr Talons
Backup- S&W 3953 115 CorBons
Before yall start Flaming-- We are REQUIRED to carry S&W ON and OFF duty- That's Memphis PD for you.

Battle Rifle-
FN built M-16 A2 (issue)

Assault Rifle-
Colt M16 Carbine/Collapsible Stock (issue)

Shotgun-
Work/Car/Entry- Remington M870 Factory 14"
House- Remington/Scattergun Tech 18" w/ext. tube

Sniper Rifle-
M700 .308(started out as a VS)Custom /Leup.LRMD/Baer/Jewell
M700 .22-250 1:8 twist Pac-Nor /Lupita/ MK4/ Baer /Jewell

Hunting - Custom M700 .280 Ackley

Like I said, not as rich as some, but no complaints from the bad guys yet. Come to think of it, they haven't said anything.
HOLD CENTER AND SQUEEZE
C. Jamison <Longshot1000@yahoo.com>
TN, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 01:29:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.135.32)

Who has Leupold M1 3-10 mil-dot scopes on sale the cheapest?
Daren Yancey <darenyancey@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 02:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.141.169.9)

Opps!!!

Sorry folks, The CORRECT email for D.D. Ross is:

DDR2112@aol.com

I humbly beg for your forgivness.

Big John <BigJohn@1st.net>
Please visit me over at "Typing Country" next, Ohio, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 02:04:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.29)

Great Forums:

http://www.Assaultweb.net

http://www.Tacticalforums.com

http://www.glocktalk.com

http://www.specialoperations.com/socnet

http://www.scfirearms.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?
action=intro&BypassCookie=true

All the World's Finest
www.Lightfighter.com

Bradley Nelson <bcnelson@vci.net>
Fort Campbell, KY, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 02:18:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.162.167.143)

Mike T,
I noticed that the various models have something for everyone - but you can't get the different reticles in the different models. I have the NSN on my M4A1 - it has been dropped and other abuses put to it. I have also been able to consistently mount and dismount (although I wouldn't recomend, for reasons we both know) the scope, to use either a carry handle or other stuff. I like the crosshair in it however and going to concede that it will not be as quick to acquire as an Aimpoint, Elcan, or the the other ACOG reticles.
I figure it might make a nice perimeter carbine/rifle scope. I still am unsure of the battle sight on top - the tritium dot is nice but the sight radius is so small that instinctive fire is just about as accurate.

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 02:40:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.141)

Kevin-
HMMMMM. I was looking at the same thing-TA01NSN because I like the different colored tritium reticle (no batteries). We use Aimpoints now and boy are they quick for CQB and with NVD's.
Have you mounted the ACOG in tandem with a PVS-14 type pocketscope? I get the feeling the reps for either company don't really know what I am talking about. Their answers are contaradictory and very vague....
If the answer is yes, and it works well, what mounting system do you have for the ACOG and the PVS? basically, are they both on a riser rail or just the PVS to bring it in line?
Thanks again
Mike T
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 02:59:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Bill – Bringing a knife to a gunfight is as bad as bringing your face to a knife fight. Yep, had a student do that, mouth overran his butt. Guy pulled out a knife and zipped his face a couple of times. Good thing he wasn’t recoil sensitive. :-)

Leslie – Don’t count of that KaBar being quieter. Those suckers squeal like you would not believe and a hand does not stop the racket! Started using the Gurka technique, lop off his head as the Queen of Hearts declared! Also found that gong with the bigger knife I had a shovel, machete, and knife all in one!

Bravo – Actually what Jeff Cooper is doing is trying to get rid of the actual military terminology, due to the political implications, which is Assault rifle. There are only two criteria for an assault rife. One selective fire and (2) it must shoot an “intermediate” round. As those rounds used by the German and Soviet rounds. The M16 variants are not true assault rifles as they fire a rifle round. The confusion on Carbine came into the mix when the M1 Carbine was so named and fired the 30 cal pistol round. The true carbine, as in Carbine Williams, is a short rifle. His first carbine developed in prison for shooting a LEA officer here in not so sunny NC, was a full rifle cartridge weapon. The subgun is different from the assault weapon in that it fires a pistol cartridge and the “old definition” was that it was full auto only, ie Sten, M3 grease gun, etc. Now it is only full capable and fires the pistol cartridge. If you look at the “Pappy Shaw” models of the Soviet subguns they all use the 7.62 pistol round as the US versions used the 45 and the Europeans used the 9mm.

Kevin – M79, loved those suckers! Using them as a defoliant during an ambush was fun with flashette rounds.

Big John – What modified optical platform for the M24 are you referring to?

LeMay – You talking about boob tubes to extend the sight radius on long range shooters weapons?

Undude – Has your hair returned to the up right position yet?

Hold Hard guys

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 03:17:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.64)

Bill,

I have always heard the M-79 referred to as a
Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 03:25:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.241.81.154)

"Blooper" or a "Thumper"
Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 03:28:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.241.81.154)

Weapons Preferences:

Someone said:
Sorry but I gotta say it,
"I vant a plasma rifle in the 40 vatt range"

Quit screwing around with the little stuff. :) Personaly, I vant a constelation of 500 watt x-ray lasers in low earth orbit on 24 hour call. *That* would be a way coolio combination of power and precision.

Guns In Service:

I am an inveterate tinkerer and have many projects running at any one time, but I have a number of firearms that I designate as "in service", i.e., fit to be employed at any time. I tend to get these set up right and then not screw with them very often. This list includes:

Go-To Battle Rifle:
M14 with Chinese receiver and USGI parts (assembled by moi) in mild NM tune (glassed into a reinforced USGI fiberglas stock, NM gas system and flash supressor, tighened 1 MOA GI battle sights, camo paint, chrome lined barrel. Capable of 1 MOA, reliable as a stone, slim and light enought to be quite handy (as a 22" barrel battle rifle can be). The most useful single rifle I own. Ammo: early '80s vintage Portugese ball. Excellent stuff, shoots about 1 MOA out to 300M.

Go-To CQB Carbine:

GAU-5A clone (also built by moi), mostly Colt parts. A1 sights, no foreward assist, M4 front end, collaping stock on rear. Nuttin' fancy, but compact, light, accurate and reliable as taxes. Ammo: Whatever the largest lot of SS109 ball I have on hand and am zeroed for, which is Sellier and Bellot at the moment. Primary "bail out" gun in case I have to unass my locale post haste.

Precision Rifle:

The one, the only, Remington 700 From Hell (tm). Was junk when purchased with bad bedding and crown last year, but after bedding in MarineTex, recrowing and adding a M3LR, Badger rings and Bayer bases, is now confirmed a rock-solid stable 1/2" MOA shooter to 500 yards. Whats not to love now? Next teardown I will eliminate the aluminum bottom metal as a load-bearing element, somehow. Ammo: a new pile of Lapua brass + Varget + 168 MKs = good stuff!

Pistolas:

Glock 17 loaded with 124gr. Georgia Arms +p (Starline brass, Speer GoldDot bullet, very good ammo). Primary bail-out pistol. OR:

Argentine M1927 in 11.25mm: (thats a M1911 in .45 to you :), as tweaked by my father and myself. Shoots anything, loaded with 230gr. GA GoldDots. OR:

S&W M65 4" square butt, box stock: solves more problems more efficiently than anything else you can buy for twice the money, realy. Load: 158gr. GoldDot (by Lawman, in this case). I like K-frames, personaly.

S&W M40 Centennial in Fobus paddle holster for CCW.

Scatterguns:

Remingtons and Ithicas. Both run. Beyond that, who cares? I neet to modernise my shotgun sighting equipment, though.

Dispoz-A-Rifles:

These are loaners, car guns, bury 'em guns, whathaveyou. I vote for the Mosin Nagant M44 carbine. Cheap, sturdy, reliable, powerful, reasonably accurate, did I mention cheap? :) Lots of good ball ammo around cheap as well. SKS is a contender here, but I have bought Mosins as low as $15 ($7 missing the front sight and with a slighty cracked stock). Cant get an SKS that cheap. They have their place. Add $30 Chinese pistol scope for bargain scout rifles. Lots of fun to play with! Amaze your friends! :) I have , um, one or two of these...

Projects in Progress:

MAS 49-56 in .308 heavy barrel, scope, the full tactical monty. Status: laminated stock mostly fitted, tubular aluminum handguard fabbed and fitted, Douglas #7 contour Air Gauge blank is awaiting its turn on the lathe, scope mount and gas system are in an advanced state of engineering (beween my ears) as I type this.

Steyr M95 straight pull carbine in 7.62x54R. Status: barrel blank on hand (cheap "Wilson", but it looks good), laminated stock blank and reamer arrived last week. All I need is the time.

M70 Winchester in 6.5x55, 6.5 Arch, or 6.5-06 Improved: In initial development.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 03:29:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

Mike T.
The white tritium cross hair will cause you trouble piggy backing NV. I haven't tried to mount it and find out exactly how much, as it just did not look like it was worth it. I figure the Aimpoint makes a great Entry sight (esp. since it is NV compatible). I did not consider it a liability in a field role - cause the crosshair works good to aim at muzzle flashes.

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 04:01:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.141)

Rick,
Last time I met with Dan Ross, he was showing me several of the projects he was working on and the M24 prototype optical platform was one of them. I didn't inspect it too closely because I was distracted by a beautiful set of scope rings that he pulled out, and, I'm gonna start a war here, I believe the M40 kicks the M24's *ss! As I recall, the platform was a picatiney (sp?) rail type with an arch underneath with lugs that extend downward into a rear clip slot and a recess forward the ejection port with top mounted screws securing it to the receiver. It was a low mount that did not appear to have a higher rear taper. I presume to facilitate the use of the secondary iron sights. With that said, let me make it plane that only looked it over for a minute, and that I am not a D.D. Ross Co. salesman. Only an EXTREMELY satisfied customer. I will be meeting with Dan sometime next week, and will interigate him more throughly as to the specs.
Big John <BigJohn@1st.net>
"Rossville", Ohio, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 04:13:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.29)

Kevin-
I THOUGHT that the TA01NSN that I saw had a red crosshair with an orange extended range reticle or the other way around. No white....
Maybe I have it wrong....(its been known to happen, especially after a few brewski's))

I was thinking that with the ACOG and NV not only do you have a good reasonably precise sight, you have the observation capabilities of the PVS x four! I don't want to put the PVS in front due to the optical magnification errors and FOV problems. It may be an insurmountable problem.

Unless I hear different, I going to stick with the Aimpoint/PVS setups.

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 04:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.204)

Regarding Dan Ross apparati... I have digital imagery of my Badger and Dan Ross M1 guards side by side. Email if interested for a zip file. ( I will regret that as netscape limits you to 5 meg!) Can we post imagery on Roster? I seem to recall an admonition against that practice a few years ago.

Dan Ross guard is more robust. Badger is more refined looking... almost petite next to Ross guard. It is second generation.... being designed with input from Norm Chandler after he used Dan's guard for a few years. I have two Ross M1 guards. I have one Badger... on Chandler rifle. Dan Ross also machined 40X treatment on another of my Remington 700 long actions and installed clip slotted rail. I can take digital imagery of that if needed. Never decided what to do with that action. Awaiting John Eckenrode to finish .223 conversion of my old PSS before moving on to a new project. He's probably waiting for money! John... I swear its coming! As soon as Dreaded Major approves expenditure.

Be safe
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 05:05:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.204.49)

Master Rick: no disagreement on the subgun topic whatsoever, I merely meant to state that a "battle carbine", as I call them, is one as you've described. A selective fire weapon that uses an intermediate power round. Didn't mean to imply that they used pistol rounds. I dunno how safe I would feel calling the 5.56 NATO a full power rifle round though. Granted, it'll make someone really sick at 500 yards or so, I just don't think it quite makes the grade for terminal energy compared to the 30M1 (30-06) or the 7.62 NATO. Or even the 6.5 Carcano ;-) But the real reason I call them what I do is because of my great respect and admiration of the man that coined the term. I notice that even on the current sylibus the CAR/M-16 course (556) is termed "tactical carbine". Or at least that's what I think I remember. But then again, this is the same man that terms the 5.56's as "poodle shooters", something I agree with, being a die-hard battle rifle shooter. As the Germans figured out all that time ago, these battle carbines are good for what they're good for.

On ammo: I prefer to keep the pistol stuff simple. For 9's it's Winchester 115 JHP's at 1350+ fps (store purchased would be CorBon 115 with the Sierra) or the Rem 124 JHP at 1300 fps. In other words, full NATO spec, 37,700 CUP. Anything less is screwing with only one ball. If I were limited to ball ammo, I would choose the 9 *ONLY* in the circumstances where I thought 45 ammo would be hard to come by. For 45 ACP, I prefer the John Browning designed load, 200 grain at 1000 fps. In my case, the Speer flying ashtray. For solids, it's the 230 truncated cones. Battle rifle is 147 FMJ at the moment, unless it's in the M-25, in which case it's homebrewed M-118LR clone. But I'm moving to the 146 FMJ's in the battle rifle. For the CAR it's 55 FMJ's, but I'm playing with the V-max's. That ought to be a touch more "final", if that's possible, at closer ranges. Too bad they're so expensive.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, where civil liberties are optional, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 05:52:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.113)

Whoo-hoo! A&E had an episode of "Joan Lunden: Behind Closed Doors at the Special Forces School" on tonight (maybe they'll re-run it). Joan was kitted out in full Ninja dress and Gucci M4A1 with all the tricks, and a strip charge to blow down the door for a full CQB live fire. Way to go, Joan (not too shabby for a 50-year old gal).

Dave Liwanag <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
Yuma, AZ, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 06:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Wes:

Glad to see we agree. BTW, the "us vs. them" police syndrome is almost universal. I had a bad case of it myself. And truth is I still do, even though I'm no longer on the job.

"Walking point" alone on mean streets for too many years is the main cause of the syndrome, IMO. After a while cops automatically start placing everyone they know or meet into one of three categories: The sheep (victims and potential victims), the wolves (criminals), and the wolf-killers (cops). Once that happens an aggressive street cop can never go back to being a sheep, not even after retirement. In effect, everyone who isn't a cop is always and forever a "them" to experienced stret cops. And it's not really an ego thing like non-cops think. It just "is".

Note: For those sensitive cops who don't like the "wolf-killers" designation, please substitute the word "shepards". As for me, I always thought of myself as a "wolf-killer", rather than a "shepard", so the term isn't intended to be derrogatory.

Bill R:

You are correct Bill. When in a hurry use fast fingers and Rocky Mountain logic!

Bravo:

Try out that electronic law library site yet?
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies where it's cold and snowing tonight, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 08:07:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.91)

Big John,

There is no dought that Dan Ross makes good products, But I will offer this information to you. The USMC hed never seen the Badger Trigger Guard or Badger Rail prior to them already selecting the DD.Ross Rail and trigger guard. Marty and I went to Quantico and showed them the Badger stuff after they already had a contract for the Ross products. They (the 2112'sbuilding the weapons including the ncoic Gst Clark) all liked the Badger Guard better. They also liked the Rail but needed a 30 MOA cant that the Badger does not have. They are still in the Process of selecting rings, I will not be suprized if Badger Rings end up on the rifle. The GGG Stuff is defininately out. We will have to see.

Since you seem to know alot about D.D. Ross Products. Tell us where his rings are bieng made. ??? They apear to be made outside the U.S.? 12mm nuts?

George
George Gardner <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 10:33:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.166)

Hate? Marius doesn't hate! He just kicks butt. :-)

Like he's going to kick the butt off a certain wsaa if HE doesn't stop putting "N/A" in his URL every time when he posts! :-) Has me looking through all links every time to remove them, lest someone clicks on them and gets a

Page not found

when they click on his name.

And of course, if the Roster gets too big, and I can't archive in time, due to the courses I'm on, it just loads slower...

But I still try, though the Geezer must remind me some times :-) Hey P.?

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 10:46:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Bill0294,

About posting images to the Roster? Please not. Simply because they take too long to download.

If they are somewhere on the 'net you can easily just add a link to them by adding the URL when you post. Provided there's only on photo, or all are on one page.

If they are not, you can post links to the individual photos as follows:

(Hope I do this correct now - if not I'll have to fix up tonight!)

<a href="the.url.name/goes.here">The text that you want to be displayed and linked in the Roster goes here</a>

You can add as many of these lines as you like - each one pointing to and describing its own image.

For example, if I want to point you to an old picture of our family (around the time Bettie heard she was pregnant with Elmíne - now 2 years old already), I will type the following:

<a href="http://www.snipercountry.com/S_dsc00021.jpg">This is my family</a>

and it will appear as follows in the Roster:

This is my family

See, I'm not so bad looking after all! No wild African Bush Runner, dressed only in lion skin, surrounded by his pet hyaenas :-)

(If I remember I'll put a more recent photo of us in this one's place over the weekend, and of better quality too - I've now got better graphic software to size it with)

Note

Never use the <> characters when you post.

That is unless you want it to be read as HTML, that is. If you enter a < the rest of your typing will be ignored until the first >, which might only be at the end of your post. I'm sure there's some that will know what I'm talking about.

If they're not on the 'net, and you want them posted, send them to me to add to the Gallery. And them I'll brood on them for a number of months before getting around to it :-(

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 11:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Jim(LeMay),

"Bloop Tubes" are as Andys Dad sez + they are purported to stabilize the gas flow around the the base of the projectile upon leaving the muzzle.
Theory was that with .22RF and possibly Black Powder a gain could be made by minimizing deformation of the lead base and any projectile "skewing" also called YAW caused by an uneven gas cloud.

I do know it works on airguns and .22rfs the best example I have shot is the Anshutz 2000 or whatever it was in 1992 with the flat bottomed receiver.During a T&E With a Leupold 6.5-20 scope attached I could consistently tag empty .22rf cases at fifty yards from the bench.

Nice threads

Master Rick B.

You are Oh so Right! Out of control is a nice term for'em.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 12:07:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.47)

I was Reading an old issue of Infantry magazine (Sep-Dec 99) today, And I saw an article about the 6mm Optimum cartrige. Accordind to the article this round has

"The velocity and trajectory of the .300 Winchester Magnum, the penetration and tracer performance of th 7.62 NATO, in a format almost as compact as 5.56 NATO."

The cartrige was intended to replace the 5.56 in the infantry rifle mode, the 7.62 in the GPMG mode and the .300 WinMag in the sniper role. Does any body know anything more on this round? Is it avalible? Are any rifles chamberd for it? Thanks.

Here are some stats
Bullet weight 100 grains
muzzle velocity 2900 fps
muzzle energy 1867 ft-lbs
velocity@1200m 1149fps
energy at 1200m 293ft.lbs
deflection@ 1200m 10mph wind 151in.
max trajectory 244in.
Knob Kacmar <Kacmark@Citadel.edu>
Chucktown, SC, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 13:00:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.225.110.162)

Big John - Thanks for the Info on Dan Ross.

bill0294 - look forward to seeing the pix, I emailed you last night about them.

Thanks for the input, the stoc aluminium unit just WILL NOT CUT IT - as we all know.

steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South West, PA, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 13:29:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

Dave L.; Yeah wonder if she'd like to do a "Behind Close Doors" at SC?
I'd volunteer handle that interview.
Chase; thanks for reminding me. That's where I heard Bloopers ..not Bloop tubes! That isn't a M-60 either it's a 60mm Mortar I was thinking off. Damn I'm gettin old.

Keep them cards and letters coming in!
Marius; It's us Americans that's UGLY! Don't be takin over our Turf!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 14:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bravo, time to save you some money. For 223 ammo just buy the 55 grain soft point Federal Classic load. Most Wal Marts sell it and it works ten times better on aggressive targets than 55 fmj's. It is also very cheap at Wally World. That is my CQB load. If I had to use FMJ ammo in a rifle I would throw the AR's away and go with either a FAL or M14, probably the M14 because as much as I like the FAL I can break apart a M14 with my toes.LOL and it has far better sites than a FAL. My only complaint about the FAL. On the 45 acp, I have more faith in the 230 grain Federal Hydro Shock. If you are having feeding problems and using the ashtry, you are not alone. That bullet sucks for feeding. Bad guys will go down just as fast with the 230 Hydro Shock and it feeds far better.

Rick, not much hair left to do most anything with. I do react when folks attack SWAT, HRT or others doing a hard job that no one wants to do.

Flash, I used to have a similar outlook like yours, but teaching firearms to public has taught me that we/LE are not alone in the hunter catagory. Many plain Joes are standing up for whats right and not letting the scum take over. Take our last election for example. Made my heart feel good to see the protesters standing up against the Democrats and saying "Go home you wont steal this election" Without them we would have had atleast four more years of thieves in the Whitehouse. I think the best thing for LE to do is make contacts with the citizens and further the relationships.

By the way, on the subject of LE. The Federal Guys are just like the local guys. Good honest cops. We take out the politics that guide them and we have a great thing. I would like to see a Charter that did not allow the President to make a new FBI, etc Head everytime we have a change of power. That breeds corruption and politically based policing. We have suffered that for too long. We need to seperate the LE aspect from the political aspect. Cities learned this long ago and have done much better since.

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 14:50:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Us vs. Them, expanded:

The wolf, sheep and shepard analogy that I made last night (at 1am) needs to be expaned slightly to better explain the often misunderstood "us vs them" police syndrome.

While all experienced police officers fit into the broad "shepard" category, there are in fact two distinctly different sub-categories. Maybe this can be better understood by thinking in terms of the old "serve" and "protect" police mission statement?

Those cops who are on the job "to help people" are service oriented, while those who are there to rid the streets of criminals are protection oriented. And while both types are "shepards", it's the protection oriented "wolf-eradicator shepards" who usually make the most felony arrests, are on SWAT teams and are Counter-Snipers.

The point is that regardless of which sub-category an individual police officer may fit into, he is nonetheless always a "shepard" and never a "sheep". Thus, he can't help but think in terms of "us vs them", because in his world that's the way it really is.

When you think about it, the "us vs them" syndrome isn't police specific. It exists in many work environments, in the military, in the judiciary, in politics, between the sexes, etc., etc. Unfortunately, the police seem to get more flack about it than others.

Is everybody confused yet?
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 14:59:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.102)

Flash: My youngest brother is a mutant cross between Bluto and 'Mork From Ork'. We'll call him 'Baby Mongo'. He went into a bar for some change and carelessly flashed some cash. He went outside and couple of bikers tried to roll him. It was broad day-light across from a police station in Atlanta. Mongo finished one straight-off with a elbow-smash in the middle of the face. About a second later he broke the other's knee with a good, solid, down-home stomp. A cop rolled up and saw the end of it. He let the bad-guys go and asked Mongo if he had any martial-arts training. The cop was looking to arrest him for not acting suitably sheep-like. Mongo saw the episode as self-preservation and an act of civic improvement. He was a little hurt that the cop didn't congratulate him.

Dividing people into two classes presents its hazards.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 16:15:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Mike' I basically agree with what you said about President changing LE leaders but it's a catch 22. If you don't have that option then LE gets "unthouchable". I think the same system counties use for election of Sheriff's works better. I'd hate to think that GW would have to put up with Janet Reno because he couldn't change the appointments. Believe me, I know what you're saying but it's hard to know what to wish for!
Flash, I wanted to say something about your grabbing the gun as opposed to drawing yours. Actually I think if you can reach the weapon. You can do it as fast as you can draw and shoot and may actually have a better chance that way of not being wounded. Every cirumstance is different. Like who else is present and what is the danger to the bystanders.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 16:52:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Mike T, I don't know about the orange reticle - my reticle is a black crosshair with range bars to 600m - in low light the centre of the crosshair glows white (to 400m range) the bottow of the reticle it is marked M4A1.
Now A buddy of mine told me he had seen pictures of an amber reticle for the M4 and some company literature says red. But the one in my hot little hands is white.
A friend has the larger 3.5x ACOG for the SS109 round out of a 20"bbl, and it has a red triangle and range stadia lines from 400-800m out the bottom of the triangle.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 17:58:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Us vs. Them, sheep analogy

Flash: you posted previously that we in LE (us, i know i just started the academy) are the shepheards while everyone else are the sheep.
I think that that is a bad analogy due to the fact that we live in the same neighborhoods as everyone else, eat the same food, and same schools.....
I think a better analogy would be that the LE community would be the sheep dogs of the flock, the shepherd the politician/military, and the sheep the community. As a cop, we put our lives on the line against the wolves, we nip at the heels of the sheep to keep'm from wandering too far (and yes, sometimes we get kicked in the face by them). but at the end of the day, we sleep in the barn, we eat kibble. we are not the family pet who gets to come into the house when its raining. We are just like any other animal in the barn, and our job is to see things are protected and running smoothly. Yeah, i know it sounds a little like Animal Farm, but it wasn't meant to (which could open up a whole new can of worms here).
I think we should have an US vs Them when it comes to watching our back when we are out there doing our job, but we are not above the law, and we are not any better than the rest of the public when it comes to doing this job.
Paul <freebyrd308@aol.com>
Farmington, Mi, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 18:11:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.214)

Dave L.... did you see the episode where she learned to drive the
Abrams, then fired a Ma Deuce, and then the BIG GUN? Tank drivin,
gun shootin' MAMA!

Tom...... if you've already taken the orbiting lasers I guess that
I'll just have to settle for an AC-130 and a radio:-)

Knob..... in the immortal words of Elmer Keith "what goods' it for".
Unless I've missed something (as I have in the past), this cartridge
sounds alot like the 6mm Rem. or a hot loaded .243 Win.

Bravo..... I second you on the 'flying ashtrays'. Been using them in
the same 1991A1 (slicked-up but nothin' fancy) for alot of rounds, and
so far not even a hiccup! Guess I just lucked out on this one.
Goes to show ya- it DOES happen:-) This is for the last ten years!
BTW- I seem to remember you mentioning that you use the FN 7.62 Berdan
primed empty cases (from Widener's?). Good stuff for the lazy man?
My idea is to load with 175SMK's and 44gr. of Varget to 2.800" OAL.
In your experience, good plan or not? I have been using this load in
all of my .308 bolt guns with W-W brass and WILL work up to it slowly
in the FN cases if this idea is viable.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 18:28:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.173)

Flash: I'm not confused in the least, but I am somewhat insulted. This "sheep" need a sheperd like a fish needs a bicycle. Similarly, Paul, I need nobody to nip at my heels, and I certainly don't need *ANYONE* to "keep me in line"!!! Let's not forget that as a *CITIZEN* On Patrol (COP), you have *ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHTS THAT I DON'T HAVE*. Things change once we hit the courts, as I have MORE liability that you do, but on the streets we are 100% equals. And I'm being gracious here, because police don't have the same authority that I have rights. It's that way for a purpose. When that purpose is forgotten, or when that fact isn't remembered, there is by definition oppression. And I've tolerated about as much of it as I can stomach personally.

Patron Mike: I understand completely what you're saying about the agency folks, and it's quite good logic. However, there are those that will follow illegal orders regardless of who issues them, regardless of who is in charge, and not think of what is necessarily best for society or the constitution. I would be happier to advocate "raising their pay and raising the bar". BTW: my *ONLY* problem with the Fed 223 and the Hydrashok is that I can't get Federal bullets in component form. For me at least, expense is a paramount issue. I prefer to practice with my "carry" ammo, and I just can't afford to do that with the Federal stuff. Wish I could! So what's your next choice for a bulk bullet buy?

"They say revolution's in the air, but I'm sitting in my underwear, and baby I don't care" Lyrics from The Ruttles
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
these shackles wear me down sometimes, what used to be, America - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 18:30:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Alan: good plan by my lines! I've been told that the FN brass is on it's way out, so I suppose after that I'll be back to loading again. I use the FN brass because it's GOOD brass, cheap, and since it's berdan primed, I just chuck it after I fire it. Wish I could give you better data on the Varget, but my attempts to find *THE* load matching my BDC have been thwarted by repeated snows. I use the 175 SMK seated to 2.835" OAL, or just *BARELY* mag length with a touch of room to spare (won't work in Springfield Inc mags, too long).
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
rifle stuff?!, COOL!, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 18:37:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

RobK...
I couldn't resist those 10 reasons... .336"... get the titanium nitride one.

Bud...
What is the name of the dealer that you took the SKS back to... is it still for sale? ;))

LeMay...
Bloop tubes are extension tubes on the front of a rifle, so the front sight will be out further... and in rimfire, go "Bloop" when fired.

Flash...
The UnDude can carry two rifles easily... he's a true "Man of Steel" ;)

Rick-ster...
"Out of control"??? You bet... and that's a GOOD DAY! They go down hill from there, real fast!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Sulkin' in my hide, since the 'yote Bate took the "Galil" off the list :((... in the White House vandalized, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 18:38:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.119)

Dear Sirs,
I have been reading the archives for quite awhile and some of the comments about 1911's are very interesting,especially about longevity...I was at Nowlin Manufacturing for their Gunsmithing course
several years ago and they had the 1911 that Jethro Dionisio used in the world championships and competed with for the previous 2 years. The barrel had been replaced 5 times and the gun had over 250,000 rounds through it. They left the fifth barrel in the gun for us to examine...the rifling had been shot out to almost 'smooth bore' but it still would hit 2" or less @ 25yards. The frame and slide were still tight and did not shake around like an old coffee grinder.
New 1911s are just as reliable as any modern design if set up properly! The problem as I see it is the 1911 has come to be the greatest "kit" gun ever manufactured any everybody who tinkers with a dremel tool and guns thinks he is a 1911 gunsmith...Now don't take what I said wrong here because there are some very fine "backyard smiths" that do a wonderful job of setting up 1911's out there. However, there are some that talk a much better job than they have skill to do the job. You also have to realize that the quality of materials you use and their specs make a big difference in how the gun will function...You don't put "ford parts in a chevy transmission"
and expect a long reliable lifespan on that tranny...
Thanks for your time,
bjg-1911
Dr. Barry J Greyson <bjg-1911@excite.com>
Okla.City, Oklahoma, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 18:41:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.217.27.25)

Sheep/Sheperds/sheepdogs/wolves/wolf hunters ad nauseum....

I highly recoomend you get one of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's books or see him at a speaking event. He speaks along the same lines and makes a lot of sense.

Bravo- you are either a rabid sheep or a sheperd who spent too much time at that infamous Storm Mntn bar...Lucy's Sheepdip Cafe I believe. But as a little history Cop is short for COPPER- a derogatory slang term dating from the turn of the century for LEO's. It came from the fact that most cops badges were made from.......copper and brass. As an aside , british police (bobbies) were nicknamed after their founder Sir Robert Peel. (Bobbies Boys)

You other guys notice that sheep come up on this site in a kind of regular fashion? Al O.........where are you? This site is turning into love connection....
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 19:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Has anyone attended any of the Sig Arms Academy Handgun or Sniper Courses? Comments... Good or bad... Recommendations.... Thanks...
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 19:38:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Speaking of Bobbies and Robert Peel....

My wife's grandmother was a Peele, who descended from the same group of Peeles... her (x-number of gg)g-grandfather immigrated to the colonies as a young fella, leaving behind family which stayed and led to Robert of the "Bobbie" fame...

Crap... I reckon this isn't "Genealogy Country".... LOL!

L8R.....

-Leslie

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 20:29:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

Paul: So, we're sheep to be nipped at, are we? This seems like an inappropriate forum in which to make such an analogy.

I truuuuuly doubt that the non-cops here see themselves as sheep.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 20:43:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Does anyone know if it is possible to install a detachable magazine in the Rem 700 BDL like the new one remington makes?

Please let me know who does such a conversion I know some places will stick Ruger 308 mags in them but I prefer one that will fit flush with the stock or at least close to it.

Thanks

hkmp5_2222@yahoo.com

nick <hkmp5_2222@yahoo.com>
slc, ut, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 21:20:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.230.6.242)

Ref: Sheep?

Baaa...Baaa...Baaa
here wolfey, wolfey, wolfey...

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 21:58:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Well, I for one would say that this page sure doesn't have too many sheep, but there are some "kuvasz" around, and the world needs more of them, ;)

Anyway, here comes that dreaded question again, and now I am curious as to why no one here uses barnes x bullets. It has been asked 3 times that I have seen, without a single response, so now I am curious as to what is wrong with them.

If I have missed a response, then I apologize, but I have been looking.

oh ya, someone asked for Al O., where is he anymore, as well as Old Dog, where is he now?

Later,

Sean Thomas <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
north, west, Canada - Friday, January 26, 2001 at 22:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.206.13)

Back to Archives