January 15, 2001 - January 21, 2001

One of the losses was by a basic student who got into it with six guys in Africa. He got five and the sixth got him. Cest' le Guerre.

The other loss was a guy in Central America who stopped at the same stop sign every day. A bunch of guys with sub-guns stood up from behind a hedge and 'Bonnie-and-Clyded' his car. I don't know if that was a mindset failure or if the guy just didn't realize that he was a high-priority target.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 00:11:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.6)

Something less related but pretty cool is a .22 LR necked down to .17. Had a chum working on this with Federal a decade ago, only from .22 Magnum. Guess they decided in the end it wouldn't sell. This one is supposed to have a 20-grain pill (FMJ, SP, or solid copper) at about 2K FPS. Volquartsen is doing Ruger 10-22's and pistols, Aguila of all places is making the ammo.

I see 1911's have been a topic of late. One 1911-clone outfit that impressed me last year and this year is Valtro. These are Italian made, and, not sure how big their distribution net is and what liklihood you have of seeing one in the local shop, but the ones I have seen at the show were fine, fine, fine. Smooth, tight in the right places, and expertly finished-- no burrs and crap.

Comments on a few previous posts re: 1911's for carry, IDPA, etc: The 1911 is far from passe as a fighting tool and continues to be a big seller (two, not-necessarily-related facts). But I will totally agree that out of the box, few if any production 1911's are "ready". The Kimbers come closest. I'll go so far as to put it this way: given equal amounts of experience and practice with different defensive or duty-type pistols, you, me, and almost everybody will perform better with a 1911. Yes, given that it has been properly tuned.

IDPA to me is a little ho-hum compared to IPSC (and I always shoot a single-stack in IPSC, no game guns). But I support it and acknowledge that it comes closer to "real"-- although the "tactical reload" or "reload with retention" is a farce IMO. I am NOT going to add 2-3-4 seconds to a reload to save a mag with two rounds in it when a large load is hitting the fan and the fan is pointed at me. I don't believe many people will.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3r, MI, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 00:12:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.29)

I'd call that a foolish hope. Of the autos, the single actions are the fastest to the first shot, and at no disadvantage thereafter. That is the Hi Power, the CZ and clones, and - the best of the best of the best - John M's masterpiece - the 1911.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 01:56:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.73)

Flash - If it was up to me I would ban full auto from most military guys weapons. One of the first demonstrations I would always give new guys was to set up 3 targets about 50 meters to the front and then let the new team members bang away full auto at them for one mag. We would go done and count holes. I would then do the same semi. They found that I dumped a mag pretty close to the same speed they did on wild fire,(faster than the guys that actually tried to hit) and got all hits. Full auto makes a lot of noise and yes THAT will get bad guys heads down, but rapid semi auto will do about the same and you will make some never get back up. Spray and pray only looks good, but does not work in the real world of oh s**t. Another problem is that you have zero digital dexterity during periods of heighten excitement. Translation is that your finger goes full down until ammo goes empty. I have seen guys do immediate action drills on weapons that were empty because they thought it had stopped shooting due to a malfunction. Full auto has some good points but damed if I can find the number of good that outways the bad. My thoughts to get something gong besides pistols on a rifle forum :-)

Dave - The only problem with the 821 is that it is not water proof so care and extra "precautions" need to be taken. I personally like the Loopie 12x40. Good glass, mil reticle that moves with the power setting AND it is waterproof!.

Ken - the 77 and 82 Kowas are awefully big for the field. We only use them on them range as instructor scopes and back ups to our Optolyth 100mm. That said, I agree with the closed cell foam wrap to stabilze and cushion the scope. Which eye piece are you using? The extended 27x can get real shaky in the field and with wind blowing the scope around. The 20 x 45 is the eypiece i use so that I can get it down to 20 power and knock off some of those shakes. I would also consider an old Marine sock full of dirt, to be filled on site :-) can get heavy, to lay across the top of the scope to also help stabilize the scope.

Now you guys can go back to arguing which weapon is best, I always thought it was the weapon that you could knock the bad guys d**k stiff with (Sorry Jen), due to training and practice, training and practice. Of course that training and practice does find out which weapons break. Oh yes, we trade out at 4000 rounds now because the 92F is breaking more often now. We still get one or two breaks a day. Now that instills confidence in a weapon!

Have fun guys and hold hard!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 02:11:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.72)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 02:27:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Wild Bill: I think I would restate that as "if someone was drawing on me, I'd hope that he had *NO TRAINING*". Personally, I don't want Rob Leatham plinking at me with a 25ACP Raven. At that point I would fail to be a stationary target. And I'll second you on the subgun stuff. By the end of the class at Front Sight, I was outracing the instructor, me with an Uzi at low ready and him with a Kimber in the holster. But (and I hate to say this 'cause it makes me sound stupid) I could have outshot myself with my Glock, using a timer. In my opinion, I'll take the pistol over a subgun any time! Maybe I've not used the right subgun, but there's no way I'd lug one around instead of a pistol.

Ned: I would keep the mag, but I only carry one spare, and both are 10 rounders.

Patron Dave: what CDC said about Gunsite is 100%. I haven't taken a class there since Jeff lost the place, but I have been back several times to talk with him personally. And he says it's now becoming quite the good school once again, now that The Worm is out of the picture. He's the only reason I didn't send my last (before this Springfield) 1911 to the smithy also, he told me that he wouldn't guarentee the results, and I just didn't feel lucky that day.

Oh, and on the AR-15 page, there's a discussion group of "problems with Kimbers". Not that I don't think they'll stand behind them, but it makes me question just saving my pennies and getting a Les Baer or Wilson. After all, we KNOW what Springfield INC thinks of their warranty.

*IF* I were a troop, and limited to ball ammo, hopefully I'd have some latitude about what I pulled from the arms room. I'd pull a 1911, but it would have to be 100%, tested OFTEN. Why? 'cause apples to apples, 45 ball would be MUCH better than 9mm ball I think. Luckily, I have hollow points ;-)

Oh, and my Glock wears the Heinie Slant-Pro sights too, but mine are flat black, just the way I like them. I'd have gotten 3 dot, if they had them, but the "figure 8" doesn't appeal to me.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 02:49:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.24)

I spoke with one of the .50 merchants at the AUSA Conference up in DC, and they were supposed to be sending a Hecate PGM II .50 cal down to go through the hoops with your guys. Any thoughts or comments?

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 02:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.18.66)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 03:02:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.12)

Still...the controversy rages on....can't believe the energy you guys are wasting on "which pistol" is the best. Screw it! If I had my choice I'd pick a long gun EVERY time. They are faster AND put more energy on target.

The only reason we ever carry pistols is that they are convenient and they ALLOW US TO FIGHT OUR WAY TO A BETTER WEAPON!

Having said that you couln't GIVE me a Beretta 92/96/M-9 series.
To big, to klunky, and failure rate is astronomical.

Saw them choke in DS/DS. Magazines (new) took a set when loaded with any thing close to max capacity. Springs were so weak they wouldn't even feed rounds. NO Thanky!

Me? I just smiled and was glad to be carrying a 1911 THAT WORKED!

In closing let me say that ALL weapons need to be tested with your duty ammo. I did and never found them wanting.

Let's quite pissing in each other's oatmeal and move on...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxix.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 03:24:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.140)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 03:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Wild Bill: the MP-5 has the selector set too far forward for my taste. But to be fair, it's EA is or me to swipe the selector on the Uzi to semi, but that's where I run out of thumb. Getting to auto with it is a stretch. The ONLY thing I've griped about having too SMALL of a grip was the AR family.

Speaking of which, anyone got anything good or bad to say about the Ergo grip? I'd like to find one with no finger grooves, since my fingers never seem to mate with them anyway. Suggestions?

MicTac: I used revolvers for a LONG time. But then Jeff Cooper (can't recall now if he told me this or if I read it in one of his books) mentioned that they don't work in really bad situations. Like long submersion in silty water. Kyaking from Mexico city to the coast comes to mind. In any case, I moved to the auto because it was MORE reliable in "real world" situations like that. But I just can't bring myself to sell the 681, the Diamondback or the police positive special. The S&W 696 I could sell though.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
6 days and counting, then the national hostage crisis will be over, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 04:52:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.24)

Thanx for the info on the INS test. I'll have to look that up further.

For DAO: That would suck. I could never have an auto in only double action.

The Beretta is a "Sevice Pistol". That means 10,000 rounds and chuck it. One might get by with a barrel and main spring change, but chuck it. I have a good 4,000 rounds through this one (a 96) and will get to 10,000 by end of spring. I expect to need a new pistol then and I am looking at all the models that show good features and reliability. So far, I am not impressed by any pistol, although I most likely will get another 40 cal.

Longgun Question! (I knew I could come up with one! A sad one, but one still...)
I prefer the 1 MOA knobs on the Varix-III M3 versus the M1 1/4 MOA knobs. I handload a pet load for a 300 winmag. Does the M3 have the ability to not use a cam and simply adjust 1 MOA/click without a ballistics cam?

thanx.
 
 
 

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 04:57:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

Rick,
I fully agree with you about ball ammunition that shoots as wide as 4 MOA having a discouraging effect to novice shooters but I do feel it does have its place. Remember the old training line, "Keep shooters interested in shooting" and, in my opinion, this is best done with reactive targets (ie: tomato juice cans filled with water at 100 yards under a speed bolt drill. A five round drill with match ammunition would cost about $3.50 vs the same drill with ball ammunition would cost about 80 cents therefore allowing the drill to be practiced about 4 times for the same cost) Before I start a big argument, which I can see an argument like this has a high potential here, ALL I am saying is that if you are trying to break yourself into a new style or method of shooting it can be beneficial warming up with ball ammunition so you still have enough money left over to feed the kids. This would apply only to those of us who are not using department supplied ammunition or with limited budgets. I have specific rifles for specific ammo. My hybrid M40-(A2?)Variant is fed only 168gr or 175gr Sierra Matchkings. I use ball ammunition through my Springfield M1A National Match for the simple reason that this is pretty much my groundhog gun and is to go into the shop for an upgrade soon due to the fact that the rounds-through-the-barrel count is getting rather high. I think you get the idea.

Rob,
My department armorer, also certified by Remington as a 700 armorer, was the man who dropped down my trigger pull. I don't remember the exact weight nor do I have a trigger guage, but all I remember is receiving the rifle back, and while completing some dryfire drills, the firing pin would drop as soon as the bolt was pushed home. When I had the rifle upgraded from a PSS to the M40 Variant which it now is, again by D.D. Ross, he reworked this same trigger and I have not had a re-occurance of the problem since. The trigger has a nice light pull and a good crisp let-off. But, as a matter of personal opinion, is still slightly heavy for my taste although my friends always refer to it as a "hair trigger". That is why I'm going to upgrade to a Jewel trigger.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that, yes, there is a lot of information on do-it-your-self modifications but, let's be honest, if all we had to do is read an article to be an expert we'd all be signing our last name as "Hathcock". Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it's beyond one's ability to fix, repair, or upgrade something, but we should take into account our own personal limitations and leave adjustments which could result in ultra light trigger pulls, being inherently dangerous, to those who have: A)the prescribed training method and B) the proper experience in the field. Imaging if I didn't dryfire that PSS before taking it to the range with live ammo.

Damn I'm getting long winded for a lurker! I better shut up now.
 

Big John <bigjohn@1st.net>
The thriving metropolis of Shortcreek Township, Ohio, (Banana Republic?) - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 05:24:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.12.127)

Dave Liwanag, I too have fitted my Kowa's(both of them,77 and 82mm) with the aluminum and sythetic quartz lens covers(front and rear) they have worked well enough for the last three years for the 82mm and the last five for the 77mm. No more fogging. I haven't had any problems with the focus ring leaking, but I normally keep the Cordura bag over this so no direct spray gets in. What's an Optolyth? 100mm? Damn, how much more does it weigh than a Kowa? How much bigger? What's it cost? Subjectively, is it worth humping to get any advantage over a Kowa? Honestly, right now I think the Kowa(either 77mm or 82mm) is overkill for field use, but I have one available so I'm going to try to use it. It may very well suck, but I'll give it a try. I can always make my spotter hump it ;-) Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 06:14:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)

Nope, Bill, I don't think I know them. All the experts I know are fully familiar with Rules 1 and 3. Natural selection is a wonderful thing, but it works in mysterious ways.

Wes: Absolutely right. Almost any long gun is better than almost any hand gun. But the last time I walked into WalMart with an AR-15 they looked at me funny. It hurt my feelings.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 06:23:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.94)

As to the Berettas being "service weapons, i.e 10,000 rounds and chuck it" so are the 1911A1 and the Glock, and last I heard there's a LE trainer out there with a low-numbered Glock 17 that's eaten something like 175,000 rounds with nothing more than spring changes and a new barrel.
Brian Fulton <blfulton45@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 06:47:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.131.100)

I'm not a militant, and i'm not a civilian, i know it gets tricky, i'm a 16 year old in the Young Marine ROTC program, I know little about most weapons you guys talk about, but i know some, and for the gentleman with the Leupold Scope problem, about the one with the flake resting on the reticle, it may be a flake of paint or some foreign object that blew in durring its birth, ya never know with those thing, your best bet would probably try to sell it for what it's worth, then get the Unertl 10x......one of the best there are, less moving parts and it's designed for rugged conditions, thus why the Marine Corps uses it, also if anyone has any tips or suggestions they would like to give me about the Marine Corps, please do, I hope to join in the summer of 2002, thanks.

PFC Ryan
 

PFC Ryan <JarHead6644@aol.com>
Anderson, Indiana, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 08:29:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.168.15.176)

Ball burnishes the ramps real perty, doesn't hang up(at least not yet), is cheap and makes big thumps on thingies that it makes contact with.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 11:47:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.65)

Bud <offah@hotmail.com>
Greens fork, in, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 12:09:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.106.153.52)

Many years ago we tried out several patrolingtactics against ambushes in forrested terrain. At one stage i think 6 IPSC targets popped up for 2 or 3 seconds before they disappeard again. Range was 20-25 meters with 1-2meters between the targets. When a single soldier shot this stage only 2 weapons managed full score. They were the finnish Soumi subgun and a tuned MG42 in 7.92 :-) With these guns you could use the Hollywood spray and pray and actually hit. The Suomi had 900rpm and a drummag. Our MG42 had an "ersatz" boltass. with a simplified ejectorrod that did away with the springloaded boltclosingdevice. Believe it or not but the MG42 emptied a 50 round belt out of a "sturmbox" in slightly less than 2 seconds, 1500rpm. The effect of the MG42 in this role was incredible.
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 12:13:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

Proven reliability wins over the promise of magic hollowpoints.

We use only FMJ ammunition in our pistols.

Too much penetration is like being too tall to play basketball.
 
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 12:22:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

No hard feelings intended, but, if your mil I agree, if your LE, ball ammo is asking for a lawsuit........reference 147 gr.. 9mm......

Two
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 12:48:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.202)

No offence taken.

I am neither Military nor LE.
I am just a guy that would prefer to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 13:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

A serious gun I would keep longer than almost every other handgun I own is my S&W lightweight 5 shot Centennial. This is the smallest handgun type I am comfortable going with. Works great as a backup!

Anyone have any progress on a project going on with some roasters regarding getting a sunshade onto the new LR Leupolds? I think Gooch was one of those working on it.
Mike T <MIctac@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 13:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Sounds Kinda PAINFUL! and I'm still trying to figure out how they got "there" during a strongside draw. I can't do it unless I intentionally sweep the groin and flub the presentation to target.

The only problem with any M-1911 pistol is the LACK of production quality control. If they made them the way they were supposed to {Like Kimber DOES even on their entry level) it would be a moot point.

Stanlxx- oops -Bravo, ARE YOU PICKING ON KIMBER????????????? ;-)
AR-15.COM & KIMBERS AH GASSS-KI!
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY , BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 14:33:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.27)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 15:02:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.28)

I personally settled on the Kowa 821 when I started looking around the lines at Quantico and Dam Neck and figured 85% of the shooters must know something I didn't (as I was again trying to dry out the inside of my B&L).

I carried a Leupold spotter thru Isolation training getting ready for the Haiti invasion, but didn't really get a chance to give it a working over. I can't say I really like straight-tube spotters.

The problem we had with the Bushnells and the M144 is in night observation -- that (60mm?) objective just don't cut it at the longer ranges or when it gets really dark (low moonlight or the target's not illuminated). Placing an AN/PVS-7 or -14 on a rail in line with the eyepiece is only a band-aid fix.

Now, trying to do a 24-hour surveillance on a bad guy, from a distance or at night is a challenge without really good optics. Some suggested Swarovski and Nikon HD-crystal lens 80mms, but that starts running into real money when you start kitting out teams. There are outfits that will rig a double (bino-style) Kowa spotting scope setup, and they're REALLY nice, and help alleviate eyestrain. The binocular vision also makes detail picking easier as well.

You might be OK without a tripod or stand for the spotter just for a shot, but I'd imagine you'll want it if you're going to do extended surveillance.

We never used the "battleship" style high mag binos on a tripod. On the guard posts in the DMZ in Korea we had no-kidding Navy battleship binoculars on hard pedestals for long-distance daytime observation, but these were from fixed guard posts. Clarity was like looking thru two Unertl team scopes.

The USAMU issues the 100mm Optolyth to their service rifle shooters on a Ewing stand, and I think Dave Tubb uses one as well. This big-objective scope is a beauty, but runs about $2200 from Deutsche Optik (they used to have it on their web site). Clear as standing about five feet away, but not so big you have to dump other essential stuff out of a surveillance ruck. I don't know if it will start replacing the Unertl team scope in the future, now that Unertl has gone under.

Looks like CMP has sold out of 30-06 Match and M852. Now you gotta wait until M118LR starts replacing M852.

Big John, if 7.62 Ball works for you, hey by all means go for it. The problem with finding a good, cosistent lot, though, is it's like blind dates -- you're never sure what you're gonna end up with. And after that batch is gone, where do you go next? If you're shooting 100 yards exclusively, do you really need a sniper rifle?
 
 

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 15:51:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.18.66)

We have not received the .50 as of this date. Right now there is a lot of political crap going on and rather tying up the works. The powers that be are also selling the 25mm as another alternative and I think it is not and have said so in my normal "polite" manner.

Ken - The Optolyth is about the same size as the Kowa 77 or 82 but with a 100mm objective lens. We use them ONLY on the range and as an instructor scope. They are great to evaluate the student's wind call and trace read as well as the shoter's ability to hold the call. The cost is about 2500 with the 20x45 eye piece. WE got ours from OK Weber. He was the most reasonably priced we could find at the time, but do not know about now, imagine he still is though.

I carry a Colt 45 of the small frame(officer) version with full size mags as backup. I have carried locked and cocked since the 60s and have never had a .45 go off unless it was pointed at a target and my finger had applied the press to make it go off. Dropping the safety is done on the draw and with the finger out of the trigger guard. With the thumb up to depress the safety the grip safety is not depressed so you still have one safety engaged. As the weapon comes on target the finger is placed on trigger and squeeze begins. While a DA is still pullng the hammer to the rear my bullet is exploding in the brain bucket of the target. That said, the record for shots fired (12) AND accuracy six each on a playing card) was achieved with two DA six shooters. Nuff said. Bill YOU started this!!!!!

Brian - If the M9 went 10,000 rounds I would be "happier", but it is only going 4000 to 5000 on average with some less then that. Also what do you tell that guy that has eaten a M9 slide due to the design flaw that alowed the lug break to eject the slide rapidly to the rear into the shooter's face? NEVER in all my years of shooting have I heard of a 45 doing such a thing. I also know of many 45s well over 10,000 rounds without a "trade out" as we are doing with the M9s at 4000. As far as "one guy's gun having...." I know of several people that are still happy with their Edsels. Still woould not want one because the vast majority sucked. :-) Again my experience is with the M9 cycling through a bunch of weapons with low round counts, not Glocks.

TorF - That wasn't spray and pray, that was denuding the foliage!:-) Loved that Soumi, however had a guy "accidently" release the barrel lock during mag change. Barrel shroud and barrel made a neat exit, stage, down range!

OK, I stop being a prick for now and NO I will not sell my loopie to by an outdated Unertl young man!

Hopefully my typing is not as bad as lst time.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 16:10:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.61)

Saw that my typing still sucks so will get out of here now.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 16:24:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.61)

Dave L., sorry to hear about the officer in your brothers PD. A terrible shame.

1911's going off and blowing your whatever off. You know I have carried one for over twenty years, sometimes on duty and always off. It has never jumped up and shot me. Like all my weapons I leave my finger off the trigger until I want to shoot. Seems like a great way to go. In LE we have seen it come full circle. About twenty years ago we moved away from the 1911 because idiots kept shooting themself. We switched to wonder 9's and it still happened. We found out it was piss poor training not the weapon. Now we are going back to 1911's because after we found out ND's were not the weapon we decided we should at least be able to hit something with the pistol. The 1911 has the single highest hit propability of all pistol designs this includes the first thru the whatever round. No throw aways with a single action. Anytime you have a AD/ND or any Oh Shit it goes back to the nutt behind the gun. Pull the trigger and it goes bang. Now some of you will say the 1911 goes off if dropped, not with any current production or new springed model on the market. I am not going to knock any other pistol, by all means if you like the Ber...(sorry cant say it) get a good insurance policy but be happy.

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 16:24:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.204)

The loads I was testing all ended up real mild, best velocity was 2500 fps... The aggregate of all my shots averaged just over 1 MOA at 100 yards, but this is not to be taken as a undesirable outcome, since the loads varied widely and were all clip length. The whole objective was to slowly and safely work up a load on a largely unknown rifle/ammo combo.

While I was at the range, I also pulled out the 10-22 I had George build...holy cow is that sucker fun... 10 out of 10 hits on a target the size of an orange at 100 yards on rapid fire...this gun will be a huge crow killer!!!

I also played with some benchmark pushing a 69 gr sierra in .223. The loads I had worked up to 25 gr and were showing pressure signs... this was delivering low 2800s out of my 16" dissipater and 2900 out of a 20" bushy A2...

I have a Leupold Mark 4 M1 scope on the .260, it fogged up something terrible on the range the other day, and the focus doesn't seem to have enough adjustment to get in to 100 yards... has anyone else seen this in the M4M1? My M4M3 doesn't have these problems....

I am starting to get into loading for pistols... is there a "magic" powder that will work great for my mix of pistols... I want to load for a Kimber .45, a Glock 23 (40 cal) and a Kahr K9 (9mmp). I would prefer not to have them produce clouds of smoke and carbon up on the first couple shots... reliability is MORE important than accuracy for me.

Last comment -

Training the brain. I will be attending a RE-ENACTMENT two weekends from today. The idea is to sneak and peek in woods filled with guys looking to catch you. Engagement decisions will be based on situation and opportunity to escape. This enemy will be fearless and will most likely charge any position discovered to contain a "sharpshooter"...
Talk about absolutely ideal winter tactical training...
The event is in Ft Indiantown Gap, PA...

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 16:45:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

My main point is that when trying something new start off slow and close. Work out the bugs, get your muscle memory down, and push yourself to improve. A 100 round "something new" drill cost roughly $66.00 with match ammo and $16.00 with ball. Using this line of thought, you can have the best of both worlds...Refining your technique with ball and mastering the skill with match.

I agree whole heartedly about the consistancy of ball between lots, but remember that I am advocating its use in a limited manner.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough about the 100 yard range. Clearly I go out much longer than that. But, let us not forget that 100 yards is considered etended range for a law enforcement sniper. I forget the actual statistics, but better than 75% of LE Sniper shootings are at less than 100 yards. I personally have never heard of an actual incident where a shot was taken at a range of over 250 yards. Again, even though they are both sniping, there is a world of difference between military and law enforcement sniping.
Big John <bigjohn@1st.net>
Ground Hogs don't like ball ammo, Ohio, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 17:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.12.143)

Let me state right out I am no expert, and have fired very few handguns.

That said, the 1911s look so purdy under glass that I have asked many a gunshop owner if he would pull one out of the case so that I could get a closer look. No doubt, they look even purdier up close and personal, especially the customs and semi-customs such as the Kimber Custom Carry (major sexy!). But the single reason I've handed every 1911 back to the dealer without even considering pulling out my wallet? The ergonomics of the 1911 suck. Not only is the trigger out at the limit of my reach, but the damn beavertails get in the way of a single handed hammer cock. If that's not bad enough, they cover the damn grips in sharply cut checkering that I just have to believe will chew your palm to hamburger after a box or two of rounds.

Sigs have an odd shape to the grip's backstrap that gives me only two contact points with which to absorb the recoil - at the very bottom, and with the web between my thumb and forefinger - nothing inbetween. I have no desire to absorb most of the recoil with the web of my hand, thank you.

HK grips seem to be shaped like a square block.

Until recently, I had the same complaint with Glock grips that I did with the HK grips, but a friend's recently aquired 36 actually fits my hand pretty well - the first Glock to do so, though I'm not crazy about my pinky finger resting on the wobbly magazine.

Taurus and Beretta 92s feel pretty good in my hand, and a friend's Taurus 92 has a very smooth trigger.

The only auto that felt so good in my hand that I instinctively reached for my wallet is my Walther P-99 in .40. Fit my hand like a glove, and I had no problems reaching all the necessary controls with a single hand without stretching. The only control requiring a second hand is the decocker.

No, the P-99 is far from ideal. For one, the trigger feel sucks. Break in, and learning where to lube has helped that. It also has more muzzle flip than I care for, and had the bad habit of locking the slide back, when new, when you didn't lock your wrist sufficiently.

But, and here's the important part, I can shoot 200 rounds through that P-99 during a single visit to the range without having my hand chewed apart by a grip covered in sharp points, or beaten to death by a square or misshapen grip.

And has been stated before many times, practice makes the difference. Until these pistol manufacturers start making guns that fit my hand, I'm not buying one - I don't care how reliable they are.

If reliability was paramount, I'd buy a revolver. Anyone ever jam, misfeed, or stovepipe a revolver? I haven't.

As a side question, anyone know if the rifle range in Lodi, WI is still open, and if it's a public course? I can't find anything on the web about this range, other than that a Palma match was held there back in 98.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 18:16:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

As far as a base/ring setup, I like the reviews of the Badger Ordnance "maximized" ring and tapered base, but I understand that it was designed for the Remington 700 and in all likelyhood won't fit on my SBS. If this is the case what should I look at?

For scope's I'm between the Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14x50mm Long Range Tactical and the Vari-X III 6.5-20x50mm Long Range Target. The rifle will primarily be used for mid-long range target shooting with a little varminting and perhaps some game hunting in the fall. Am I looking in the right direction?

Thanks in advance.

C.T. Lynch
C.T. Lynch <ct_lynch@hotmail.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 18:16:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.127.13.132)

Back from the SHOT Show.

1. US optics does not have a contract to build the USMC sniper scope. They have been building parts and may have a repair/rebuild contract but thats it.

2. Unertl is going to be back in production under PK night sights. I talked to thier sales rep and they are producing the 100m team scope as well as other spotting scopes, rifle scopes etc. Looks like the USMC sniper scope will be avaialable to civvies. Spotting scope is retailing under $800.00. 100mm team scope is available under $4,000.

3. Talked to Leupold. In the near future the M3LR and other scopes that were being produced without the obj housing being threaded will be produced with it threaded and within a year you will be able to send old ones in to be retrofitted.

Note. A former employer of mine is claiming that I took a State Department Contract from him. Bullshit! If I had a State Department contract I wouldn't be in Alabama right now. I was laid off up there and didn't go back. Any claims of any wrong doing on my part are a fabrication. End of that thread!

Bourbon Street sucks. Seen a better time in the PI.

Out here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 18:40:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.151.158)

Patron UnDude: selling stuff? I guess it would be too much to hope for to see you selling a 100% reliable 1911, or for trade for a Springfield and an ARMS mount ;-) Gee, now I'll have to go check the emporium again. BAH! I hate being poor sometimes. Like all the time.

PeteR: me? Bash Kimber? I've never owned one, I certainly wouldn't talk about them! I just made mention that the AR-15 forum that the Evil SquirrelBoy talked me onto (hey Adam, feel like a nice apple?) has a thread on "bad Kimber" stories. Makes sense, *ALL* makers have lemons from time to time. I don't care about getting a lemon, as long as the company will stand behind the product when I say "Hey, this don't work!". We both know that Springfield doesn't do that. Nor Colt.

Big John: I tried the McMillan M1A with a scope. You'll have to settle for a "chin weld", or build the stock up somehow. Not terrible, just not "right" for me. I'm REALLY interetsed to hear how it comes out! Mine likewise was built with new GI parts. And I love it.

Jim: I've steamed my M3 in the very cold before, but it was fogged on the outside, not the inside. If it's fogged on the inside, that would say to me that the nitrogen purge wasn't contained anymore. But I'm not an expert or anything. If it was internal, send it back!

And to whoever it was talking about the Unertl: I won't trade my M3 Lupita for a Unertl, and I don't think many would. Might want to listen, or at least TRY the scopes you're talking about *BEFORE* making your mind up on what works and what doesn't!

Patron Dave and Master Rick: what parts break on the Berettas? Just locking blocks?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the great, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 18:59:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Big John <bigjohn@1st.net>
This oughta be a good hog gun!, Ohio, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 19:17:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.99)

MikeL,
Thumbcock a S-A auto??? WHY???????????????? I have cut checkered stocks on all my M-1911's and have never been cut by them. HammerBit by a couple OLD M-1911's(original) but thats it.
Triggers and mainspring housings can be changed on the 1911 series. I shot a new Walther a couple months ago and it was pretty nice. Nicer than a Glock, about on par with a SIG P-2XX series.
 

Master Rick,
Was that a production, or General Officers shorty .45? Hmmmmmmmmmm?????
 

master Gooch,
Welcome back! and thanks for the SHOT brief.
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 19:42:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.52)

I am concerned with the weight of my new rifles projectiles. See, i bought an SKS, i know i know -peice of crap- RIGHT? Well, this is probably the best SKS ive seen. Im doing about 1 1/2 inches at 100, which is not bad for leaf iron sights. SO what i want to know is if i can find heaver ammo for hunting. I can only find 125 grain ammo for the 7.62x39- i want something more in the range of 150 to 180- any suggestions???

Chris
Chris <chris_t12@hotmail.com>
kent, wa, USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 21:50:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.254.129)

Bill: Guns don't 'go-off'. If anyone ever blows off one of my, er..., ornaments, you can be damned sure that it wasn't me.

Mike L informs us that, "The ergonomics of
the 1911 suck."

Au contraire. The ergonomics are the only advantage it has over some of the newer designs like the Sig. He goes on, "Not only is the trigger out at the limit of my reach,..." Use the short trigger. ".... but the damn beavertails get in the way of a single handed hammer cock." The only time you thumb-cock is when you are dry-firing. Use your support-hand thumb. There is NEVER a reason to use a single handed hammer cock. And there is POSITIVELY NEVER a reason to thumb-cock a 1911 on a live round. That's a real good way to ruin the wall-paper.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 22:02:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.76)

Bravo- we had a few guys carry Beretta's for a while to evaluate them as service weapons. One would rather have that gun back than any other, the others don't. Several had the safety lever freeze in the down position, and there were a few broken locking blocks. I believe the safety freezing problem was caused by improper cleaning fluids though. They really never complained about how they shot or functioned (all very well) but they didn't like the size. The guys who had the broken locking blocks had an instant dislike grow on them.
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 15, 2001 at 23:59:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

The Bronze Rat

A tourist walks into a curio shop in San Francisco.
Looking around at the exotica, he notices a very life-like, life-sized bronze statue of a rat. It has no price tag, but is so striking he decides he must have it.
He took it to the owner: "How much for the bronze rat?"
"Twelve dollars for the rat, one thousand dollars for the story," said the owner.
The tourist gave the man twelve dollars.
"I'll just take the rat, you can keep the story."

As he walked down the street carrying his bronze rat, he noticed that a few real rats had crawled out of the alleys and sewers and began following him down the street.
This was disconcerting, he began walking faster. But within a couple
blocks, the herd of rats behind him had grown to hundreds, and they began squealing.
He began to trot toward the Bay, looking around to see that the rats now numbered in the MILLIONS, and were squealing and coming toward him faster and faster.
Concerned, even scared, he ran to the edge of the Bay, and threw the bronze rat as far out into the Bay as he could.
Amazingly, the millions of rats all jumped into the Bay after it, and were all drowned.

The man walked back to the curio shop. "Ah ha," said the owner, "I knew you would have to come back for the story!"
"No," said the man, "I came back to see if you have a bronze Democrat."
--------------------------------------------------

'yote Bate...
You are right about the Glock being faster than a 1911... in fact it's SOoooooo fast, that the cops in New York and a new disease... "Glock FOOT" !! ;)
But I'm as old as rocks... and when I see the same pair of headlights in my rearview mirror for a few miles through a bad 'hood, I want that "thang" in the glove box, to be designed by John Browning!... 1911, or 1935!!

Gooch-ster...
Good news on all fronts.
Bourbon ST??? I had more fun in the Spindle top oil fields, as a rig monkey when I was a kid... and had money left over.

Black flake in a Lupita...
It's a stuff called "Flocking", which blocks internal reflections, and once in a rare while, a piece breaks loose.
Send it to Lupita, and they will remove it, and overhaul your scope, no charge...

PFC RYAN???
On Unertl 10x scopes... as a 16 year old (please note, you are too young to be posting on this site!!)...

You might wait till you're shaving, and maybe had "a little" before you start giving advice on this site... at 16, you know less than nothing. Many of the guys here, that you are giving advice to, are instructors at what you "Think" you want to do... and they were "there... when...!"

Torf...
What's her name???

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 00:11:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.34)

I know this is off the beaten track. Has anyone served with 2/3? For those not familiar, 2nd Battalion 3rd Marines, I am lookinf for folks who served in Weapons Company, 81s platoon during the Gulf War. It's been 10 years and it's time to see what they are up to.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 00:19:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.190)

Wild Bill: it's not just CDC. The first pistol I ever purchased on my own was a stainless Colt Officers ACP ('Lito knows the WHOLE story). 21'st birthday. I carried that thing for MANY years. It's not 100% to my standards, but it's 100% for at least the first 50 to 100 rounds, and that was fine for me, I only carried 13. It was a concealled carry pistol in a land that didn't have permits for such, not like I was carrying it into the desert combat zone or anything. And after I had my "education" in why not to carry in condition 2, I carried cocked and locked strictly. And I got some good instruction on how to use that thing. It made a trip to Novak's to have the Colt deficiencies taken care of with a Kings kit, and I still have it. I would, and have, carried it off and on, mostly for the sake of memories. And I feel 100% protected with it. Not as a combat pistol, but as a concealled carry pistol. If it would fire 1000 without cleaning or lube, I'd be married to it by now. It's got the accuracy AND the speed, when I do my part. CDC, on this one, has my full backing.

Mike L: Ditto what CDC said. The ergonomics of the 1911 suck so much that I had my Glock re-contoured throughout the grip to closely mimic the 1911 with the flat mainspring housing. Why? 'Cause when I draw on a target, the sights line up. If it'll fit my hand, it'll fit anyone.

Big John: I've run across the same problem. But I decided it was better for me to have a battle rifle and a spotters rifle. If I take the scope off, via ARMS#22L QD lever rings, and then remove the cheekpiece of the M3A, I can shoot irons pretty quick. But it's not service rifle legal.

PFC Ryan: WHAAA?!? I caught the message, and I caught the PFC. Didn't catch the 16 on first go around. So WTF? I'm betting that you've never even SEEN a Unertl, much less shot behind one. C'mon kid, we were cool to at that age, but 2 years later we learned quick. It's a fools errand to try and give advice on something that you've not experienced PERSONALLY. Besides, there's an "under 18" clause at the beginning.

CDC: the next time someone picks on my "combat tupperware" or the M-25, I'd like to run my replies through you first. I've just got to get some of those nifty phrases. "ruin the wall-paper". HA! DOUBLE HA! Have you had any work done by the smithy lately? I'm all ears about now.....
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 00:59:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.24)

Anyway, I may be slow with my 1911, but the opposition is a lot slower... they don't get IDPA practice time in the "joint"!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Torsten... I need to meet your friend.. I'm in LUV!!... in the, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 01:08:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.34)

Thanks Steve
Steve Jorgenson <stevecj00@hotmail.com>
Ephraim, Utah, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 01:32:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.178.84.177)

I'm confident that I'm not going to blast my n*ts off with my own sidearm.

"I applaud your corrections and your ability to predict the future."

Modesty isn't always easy.

Bill, I like you.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 01:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.54)

Pete - Production, I was and will ever be an NCO.

CDC - There is a point of bad egonomics in the 45. The grip will cause initial problems with aquiring sights in a rapidly developing situation (read aw crap!!!). The barrel will point low. We used to show new guys how the weapon will shoot low if held "naturally" in the hand and fired ala the FBI crouch and shoot form the hip bull. Yes this was some years back boys and girls. The colt model 45 equires a slight up tilt of the wrist to settle on target properly and only minimum practice puts this into muscle memory.

Lito - Be nice, the heavy trigger of the glock (#9 Bill?) was made special for them and called the New York trigger. OK OK it was actually made to simulate the revolver trigger they were used to before the Glock. But wasn't it that squeeze cocker that got most of the foot injuries?

Gooch - What Dept contract and why didn't you invite me along?!!!

Play nice now boys and girls. Speaking of that, where have you been, Jen?

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville , NC, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 02:15:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.154)

I'm in the market for a spotting scope. I would appreciate any recommendation and guidance on which scope is suitable for some serious range use. I would like to be able to see a . 308 print on a target at 300yrds away. Without having to get rid of my big-screen TV

to buy it I would like to stay within the $500 range if possible. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Please Email me with response fella's.
 
 

Thank again,

Tony
Tony <tonylongshot@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 02:51:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.22)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 02:54:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.127)

I am back in business after the troubles in Oak Ridge, and back in my old shop in Albany, Wisconsin. I have more machinery, and am back making barrels. The current crop of .30's is the best of my career, and that is just the start of it. I have a new attitude, and new processes to add to the list of things to offer to shooters who want to win.

I just got back from the SHOT Show and was advised by some 'special' people to post here to let you know I am back. Well, here 'tis.

I am putting up a website under Rockcreekbarrels.com. It is NOT put together now, just a placeholder. Mail addressed to either the above, or 'mikerock@rockcreekbarrels.com' will arrive here.

At present, .22 cals, .30's and .338's are coming out the door. Tooling for other calibers is done, and awaiting some tweaks. I have nearly 70,000 pounds of both Chrome Molybendum and 416R stainless steel on the floor, and am working on other alloys for military research. Fun stuff, as I like research. I am a metallurgical engineer by training as some of you know.

I hope you can pass this on, and I am glad to be back among friends.

Most respectfully,
Mike Rock

mikerock@mhtc.net
mikerock@rockcreekbarrels.com

Rock Creek Barrels, Inc.
101 Ogden Avenue
Albany, WI, 53502
 
 

Mike Rock <mikerock@mhtc.net>
Albany, WI, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 03:02:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 156.46.193.219)

Bravo,
I have always been leary of QD optical systems. Just seems sacreligious to go all round the rifle checking torque settings prior to firing only to have a lever poking out so that the sight is fast to....Fall Off! Or worse, loosen up just enough to cause a wandering zero. At least when it falls to the ground you have a good idea that something is wrong.
I still believe in the old school of thought to have everything tightly bolted down so that you need a box full of tools or a mortar shell to remove it. BUT I have never owned nor employed a QD system. Do I hear a new thread forming???

No argument from here about the dangers of building a dual purpose rifle. Might end up with a system that fits neither purpose. Worst case scenario is that the new rifle be downrated for Service rifle competition by removing the optics platform and have the gunsmith build me another (X)M-25 with the M2A or M3A stock.(Don't cut & paste and send this to my wife) I would of liked to try out some 25's prior to commissioning one, but lets face it, there is realy not a whole lot of them around.
I wish McMillan would offer us a saddle for the M1A stock like they have on the A-2.
 

Big John <BigJohn@1st.net>
Nowhere , middle of, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 03:19:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.12.97)

Scott Hannah
hannahscott@netscape.net
 

Scott Hannah <hannahscott@netscape.net>
S.J., CA, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 03:38:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.165.201.213)

I have a Ruger 77mkII in 300WM that a litle while back I purchased for elk hunting. I will soon be leaving elk country and am looking to extend the usefulness of this rifle. I have enough money into it to not want to sell it (Timney trigger and McMillan stock). Its accuracy has been adequate for hunting.

I am considering rebarreling it so that I may use it as a target rifle. Other than 7mm Rem Mag, are there any calibers that I may use that would lessen its bite and cost of operation? I am limited by the standard action length and would prefer to leave the bolt head size and feed rails alone. I am guessing the 6mm Lazeroni would work as well. What else may work?

Also, since no lives will be depending on this rifle, I am not feeling the need to put a top-end barrel on it. Are there any suggestions on some reasonably priced barrels and gunsmiths?

Thanks for any and all input.

ren <kirks@icehouse.net>
Couer d'Alene, Idaho, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 03:42:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.53.142.7)

PFC Ryan:
Ground Rules... Didn't you read the heading? NO MINORS!! Man, play it cool, if you're gonna lurk, keep quiet and no one will bust you on it. If you make a post, don't go and throw it out there that you're underage. If you just HAVE to ask something, you could just directly email one of us and ask. And, even if you're a "PFC" in "Jr ROTC", you've NOT gone to Parris Island or San Diego yet... Even the day before graduation from boot camp, the drill instructors would bust your chops if you referred to yourself as a Marine...
AND....
Don't get me wrong, I love the Unertl 10x, it just oozes with character... but it's optics are the equivelent of a Leupold Vari-X II, not even a Vari-X III - which, because it's a variable power scope, is a bit under the Mk IV Lupitas... Leupold is THE standard for a riflescope anymore. Some here will also brag on US Optics, and there are other good scopes, too, but you really are going off at the mouth about things of which you don't have experience. Do you have the cash to buy a Unertl? Don't think your allowance will pick one up anytime soon. Realize that almost all of the people here have been shooting for longer than you've been around... myself included, and I'm probably one of the younger ones who post here.
 

1911 vs XXXX
I would've thought that this would have died down by now, but since it hasnt I'm gonna quit biting my tongue now.... I really like Glocks, I even kept my issue of American Rifleman where it was debuted what, 14 years ago? knowing that it was going to be revolutionary (well, I guess that's not entirely fair, I keep all of them anyway). But for carry, I picked a Commander-length Para P13-.45... Dad taught me to field strip a 1911 when I was 10, within a week I could do it blindfolded, and I've never turned back. I like lots of other guns, and wouldn't hesitate to carry many of them, but I won't trade my Para... the only thing I've done to it was drop in an ambi-safety since I'm a lefty. My original thought was to send it to Wilson, but they refused to work on a Para, which kinda irked me. So I just started shooting it, and really haven't found much to not like. I don't think I'll ever let it go... No, I don't carry daily anymore, because I have almost a zero threat level when out and about. It stays in the Rover, where I can get to it if needed while in the vehicle, and can retrieve it to carry it if I'm heading to the field.
 

Gooch,
Glad to see ya... hope all straightens out for ya quickly.
 

Still sore from this weekend, a couple of buddies at work were going camping up on Cumberland Mountain and invited me along... knowing I need to get back in the field, I went along... it's been a LONG time since I humped the way I used to... 2 miles up a steep switchback w/ a 60 lb ruck, then out along the ridge for 5 miles to where we camped... then 2 miles down switchbacks back to the truck. I felt beat up but good afterwards... really need to start doing that regularly... 15 degrees out overnight, miles from anywhere, but not doing it on a CO's orders... really was fun...
 

Okay, I'm about to start rambling, so I'll run.....
As you were....
;-)
 
 

-L
 
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 04:18:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.177)

Markwell: thanks, I might take a trip out there sometime quick. Heck, I've got to burn 3 days before the middle of next month. Why not. At least now it won't feel like I'm 'not doing right' by Jeff. Think I can give the receipt to Springfield under "warranty work not performed by you"?

All right Master Rick, you've got my curiousity running high. One pistol, just one brand name, and one model. Everything from desert to swamp, and all between. What's your pick? I sure hope it's not a DA ;-)

Patrons Dave and Mike? Same thing!

I already know about you 'Lito LOL.

Wild Bill: if you ever STOP arguing with me, you'll lose your charm. Heck, the majority of the reason I like you so much is because you stick by your convictions. We might not always agree, but you're always welcome in my fox hole, and to share a Bravo Brew or seventy.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 04:24:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.24)

Lady and Gents,

Spent the day at the range with 4 Law Enforcement acquaintances. Interesting day. They showed up with two Rem PSS;s in .308, a Springfield M1A with Shepherd Scope, and a Rem VSS in 22-250. I'll give you my observations a bit later, in the post, on the equipment and performance.

As you know, I've been advocating the 6.5 X .284 as a replacement for the .300 Win Mag and the .308 Winchester. Today was another case that further confirmed the benefits of the 6.5...
Remember, I'm saying .300 Winch/190 gr Sierra trajectory, but with LESS recoil!

We had the opportunity to shoot across the course all the way back to 600 yards. I chose to shoot from the field prone position off my Parker-Hale bi-pod.

Conditions: 40'45 degrees, wind 3-10 knots/variable(all over the place), cloudy with sprinkles. Not to bad, but definetly a day for some wind doping.

I shot my 6.5 X .284 Chandler Super Sniper and my Obermeyer barreled .308 M40A1 clone. Both with Lupie scopes. The MKIV on my .308 and the 3.5 X 10 M1 Tactical on the Chandler gun. Both on 10X.

After firing the 6.5 to 600 yards I discovered that I had shot and called the wind perfectly. All rounds in the 6" bull. My final 600 yard group was a neat 1.5" high X 3.5" high. Perfectly centered.
ELEVATION USED: 11.25 MOA

My .308 shot well across the course with Winch 175's and my pet load of 44.0 gr. of VARGET (listening, Bravo?), Fed 210M, and Lapua Brass.
I used a bit to much windage at 600 and the rounds were slightly to the left(next to the bull). Also, the load shot just a bit lower than usual. Possibly due to the cloudy day. Final six rounds went into a group 4.5" wide X 2.5" high.

6.5 Comments...the Chandler gun continues to shoot consistently tight groups that are shrinking as the barrel wears in...to date, I have 155 rounds through it. I'd except it to really start humming in another 100 rounds or so

The 6.5 shot to 600 with a total MOA of 11.25 while the .308 required an correct MAO of 15.5 to drop the rounds in the bull. That's a whopping 4 MOA difference. The pit crew indicated that they knew when I triggered the 6.5...slightly louder and got there in a hurry.

The two PSS shot well to 300 yards, but as we moved back to to 600 Sheldon Roy's was trying to get "on paper" by adding 10 clicks...not even close. He never did get on paper at 600 and I suspect his internal adjustments on his scope may need correcting. He left frustrated.

I put on my "this is how we learn" hat and worked with Luke Harry, one of my staff instuctors for pistol, shotgun, and subgun. He's never shot across the course and allowed me to tutor him. We put 15 MOA on his gun and his first round was just under the 6" bull by 6".
An adjustment of 1 MOA put him in the black. He's new and was making mistakes, but listens and corrects.

The others shot the M1A with Shephard scope. I was not impressed once he got past 300. Our "varmint shooter" did well to 300, but then the wind and light 55gr. pills wandered badly.

All in all a great day! I'm keeping the targets plus got to spend a day doing some informal instruction and smelling powdersmoke.
All for now...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 04:32:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.244)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 05:27:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

After they fulfill the govt contracts they will be maikng them available for "retail sale."

I just want to know has anybody had a chance to shoot one of these?
Thanks,

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
Itchin to go shootin, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 05:32:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Lcpl. Garnes, L.W. <Hoya973@aol.com>
MCBH, Kaneohe Bay, HI, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 05:47:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.148)

Bad time on Bourbon Street? Must not like seafood and gumbo.... must be more to that story, anyways:

The time honored debate of handguns. The gun that you carry with you all the time and are proficient with is the one that is the best. Don't take a knife to a gunfight.

Oh yeah. Thou shalt not slander KIMBER! I bought my special edition stainless and took it from the storekeep's hands. Walked right out to the range and stoked it up for an IPSC official match. I brought up the rear sight a few clicks and fired the entire match without a failure of any type and posted a pretty darn good score with it. These guns are very underpriced. (Secret, don't tell them.) I own a few different 1911 types and have worked on many. You can take just about any 1911 and put $120 of parts (wholesale) and about 4-5 hours into them and just about all of them make fine, reliable shooters.

I have watched countless times when the-coveted-trick-top-name gunsmith toy goes bang, bang, jam, bang, jam, @#$*(&^^%!!!

This isn't a debate that anyone can win, but we all know what we have seen, and not what we just "heard from my uncle's brother's cousin's goat" about this or that superdooper failure warning, etc.

Kowa spotting scopes give me wood. I can't decide on which model. May have to get two. If any of you lurkers are like me and bang away at your calculator for dope, get that Mil Dot Master now. Don't wait one more day. I just got one a couple days ago. SWEET! Eliminates keypunch error and you will be proficient in its use in less than an hour.

Chuck
 

Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Deep South, Kalifornistan, Barely in the USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 05:47:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.110.41)

Everybody else,
As far as pistols go, I carry a USP .45 (no permits nessecary here unless carried on your person. Your vehicle is an extension of your home) and do not have the first complaint. I love the .45 ACP, but a wise old chief in the Navy once told me "It doesn't matter how great a particular bullet is if you can't hit the other guy with it!"

Since I've decided to actually post something I would like to thank all of you that do contribute. I've been lurking for some time now and usually find the answers to my problems here. For some reason there seems to be a profound lack of long range precision shooters in south Louisiana, so I'm mostly left to my own devices as far as learning this art goes. Finding an open tract of land suitable for shooting here is like finding the Grail. It just doesn't happen. Right now I have to shoot along a run of high tension wires. With some diligence and a Cat D-9 I think I'll be able to get out to 400 M!
Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for all of your help, wether you know you helped or not.
Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 05:58:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.216.236.148)

I'd also like to hear from anyone thats in the Army and could tell me about sniping there, I love the corps but The army is handing out major signing bonuses and incentives.

Lcpl. Garnes, L.W. <Hoya973@aol.com>
MCBH, Kaneohe Bay, HI, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 06:04:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.148)

I bin reading the the duty roster for awhile now, and learn a lot.
I have one questions what does Semper Fi, mean i look it up
and couldn't find much about it. Expect that it has to do with the military.

Thanks,
Jack

Jack <ak93@lycos.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 07:07:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.72.134)

Glad to see the same old, same old is going on.

Anyway my B&L is goin to be going the way of the dodo - I guess I should flog it on the emporium (ken you still intrested?).
Sent my beautiful (and expensive) Richard Near 45 MOA mount of to a gun show with a buddy who had a table and guess what. That mount that he charges $220 US for someone got for $110 Hudson's Bay Peso's - he claims Oh I thought you wanted $250 for the rings (Badgers) and the mount - This M3 'upgrade' is pissing me off already.

Stan - Browning, Browning, Browning - maybe then you'd junk the gas gun!!!!!!
 

Kevin <evilkevii@aol.com>
Canada - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 07:35:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.23)

Thanks for the info on the trigger. I am am having my rifle re-barreled and the action blue printed in about a week or so, and I will have the guy doing the work pay particular attention to the trigger. The rifle I am currently using was a replacement rifle. It just does not seem to shoot as well as my old one. Maybe I just secretly resent it for replacing an old friend. :)
Rob <rdimel@msn.com>
Costa Mesa, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 07:59:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.84.21)

Rob <rdimel@msn.com>
Costa Mesa, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 08:07:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.84.21)

Here's two great pictures of what those Glocks probably looked like, http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=183095&a=1591939&p=14692920
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=183095&a=1591939&p=14677410

And hell, since I'm the guy that is responsible for bringing people over to the darkside AR15 forums I might as well post an AR15.com thread that talks about self destructing Glocks,
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum3/HTML/025371.html
You think the gas gunners have it bad when they try to talk amongst themselves or among bolt gunners, you should see the Glock shooters circle the wagons. You'll find them actually praising the design and saying that they are designed to blow up in a "specific way." They try to give you the impression that the gun has so much engineering present that they designed it to "safely explode." Hmmm, I'm not so sure I follow that argument but it's fun reading and it's a romantic to think that heaven forbid the gun goes up in smoke it's slide wont' come back and whollop you in the face. That Beretta slide thing has me throughly scared, I don't need a "face full of steel" I had braces growing up and I don't need any more metal in my mouth thankyou very much. Maybe Bravo just hasn't had enough iron in his diet? Hehe, couldn't resist, I think the Beretta is an elegant design and it's comfortable in my hands, I'm just not sure how tough they are. Limited experience in the Beretta department.
 
 

I haven't purchased a Glock yet and I'm uncertain if I want to. I do have an HK USP and that is a gun I'm pretty comfortable with as far as durability is concerned. Mine has even withstood two underwater firings to capture the bullet without making too much of a bang while doing it. I take comfort knowing that what I put it the gun through is nothing compared to the HK testing done on the USP. The one problem I have with the HK USP is that it doesn't point very naturally for me and I have a much more difficult time finding the sights with it as opposed to my ParaOrdinance P14. The Para is a gun that I pretty much just love to death, I've had mine for a couple years and it doesn't seem to fit with the recent problematic reports I've heard. Maybe I got a ParaOrd when the company was similar to Kimber in that they were offering a gun that was of better build quality than the price suggested. The guns always could have benefited from a slightly better finish though, the bluing on every single Para I've seen is a bit rough. I also managed to grab up a couple of 14 rounders for it so I'm rolling good.

Getting away from the full size frames, the next pistol is probably going to be one of the Kimber Custom CDP guns with the nice "melt job" and the factory low drag tritium sights.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 09:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

The 1911 vs anything debate: STILL GOING! Wow.
 

Somebody posted asking about the longest sniper kill confirmed.. Not a sniper, but I know Hathcock nailed a guy at like 2,000 meters with that scoped .50 in Vietnam, and there's probably a bunch in the thousand-yard range.
 

There was another one in the history book in the 1870s. Small Fort out here someplace in NM or Arizona, under siege by some Indians, and a buffalo hunter with a Sharps inside the fort took a shot at 5 Indians sitting on horseback in a group way off in the distance....

Suprising everyone in the fort as well as the Indians, he hit one of the Indians. After it was all over and the Cavalry showed up, they measured the distance to be something like 1,452 yards I think it was. And this was with iron sights, no bipod, no spotter, anything. Makes you wonder what he could have done with a tricked out M40A1 huh?

For the record I think the Sharps was a .50-90 or .50-110, I'll look.
Brian Fulton <blfulton45@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 09:56:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.131.100)

That might indicate an uncharged cartridge. When the firing pin hits the primer and lights it off, pressure is created inside the primer pocket, pushing the primer backwards, and the cartridge forwards, backing out the primer. When the powder lights off, it pushes the cartridge backwards onto the primer, reseating the primer. No powder, and that primer stays backed out. Just thought I'd warn you, as uncharged cartridges tend to leave bullets dangerously in the barrel.

Bravo> I've never had a jam in an auto that wasn't clearable QUICK, the slowest being a double-feed.

The worst I've experienced with a revolver was a buildup of powder residue under the ejector star, keeping me from closing a loaded cylinder near the end of a long day at the range. The worst I've experienced with an auto is the slide locking back even though there are more rounds left in the magazine - I've experienced this problem more than a dozen times.

The worst I've experienced with a rifle is a handload that failed to go off due to primer contamination. That's where I learned that you don't ever touch primers with your fingers while reloading. Use a tweezers if you must manipulate a primer.

peteR Thumbcock a S-A auto??? WHY????????????????

My sister's kids and their little friends are frequent visitors (long story), so I mostly keep everything unloaded and locked in the safe - intrusions are handled by my 60 pound dog. But if the kids weren't around and I owned a S-A auto, I might be tempted to keep it loaded but de-cocked just so someone else couldn't pick it up, point it at me, and pull the trigger. Should someone get by the dog, I may be tempted to grab the gun in one hand, and a flashlight or cell phone in the other, which might make single-handed cocking convenient.

Yes, I know I don't know squat about clearing a house. That's why the guns stay locked up and I have a dog.

peteR Triggers and mainspring housings can be changed on the 1911 series.

Didn't know that. Learn something new every day! Maybe I'll have to give in to my desires for that sexy Kimber Ultra CDP if it can be customized to fit my hand.
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 12:03:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Mike: The above scenario calls for a condition three drill. If you don't know what that is, go to one of the Thunder Ranch, Storm Mountain, Front Sight or Gunsite and TAKE THE TRAINING. The manipulation drill you described is dangerous. Very smart people have established a standard doctrine that works.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 13:43:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.32)

Bet they were, as most of you probably are aware of, (but for those who aren't), the earlier model glocks in .40 cal, did not have a FULLY supported chamber.

.40's are very quick on their pressure spikes, and must have a fully supported case head.

The design was changed, and all models, to my knowledge, for the past 4/5 years have the new chamber design.

This is the ONLY problem of this sort I have ever heard of out of the Glook family of pistols.......

After all, 70-90% of all the PD's in the country are carrying them........if they were a major safety concern, and problematic.......this definitely would not be the case.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 14:12:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.54)

I got a sad e-mail from a guy on this site... I'll keep the name private, cuz it was a private e-mail, but a close member of his family, who was a long time hunter, went Elk hunting, and didn't come home.
He got separated from the guide in high country. there was some snow, and he holed up... fired 3 shots, and that was it.

If you hunt in bad country, PLAN on getting lost, PLAN on having to spend the night without shelter, and PLAN on making it easy for someone to find you.

1 - A space blanket
2 - Fire making stuff
3 - 30 or so flare cartridges that will go up 300 feet.
4 - Orange ground smoke flares
5 - Long burning ground flares
6 - 2 way radio w/extra batteries
7 - GPS to give location on radio for "Go to" feature.
8 - 12 to 15 extra cartridges for noise making

All of the above would weigh about 4 or 5 pounds, and fit in the pockets of a small day pack.

My condolences...

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 14:59:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.105)

Yote Bait,
Damn, your really taking a beating!!! I have used them all and there are things I like about them all. I loved my 60s national match and I loved my Glock 45 and put thousands of rounds through both with no trouble. If I had to pick one over the other it would be the Glock. (Sorry 'lito). I traded my Glock 45 for a 9mm and the 9mm shot like shit!! I had a hard time keeping them all in a paper plate at 25yds, porne!! Last year in Wyoming I shot Jrs. Bretta and really liked it. it shot well and was a lot more accurate than the Glock, so down the road went the Glock and I now have a Bretta. Haven't shot it a lot yet but its much more accurate than the Glock.

Bravo,
Your right, I had a revolver jam up with factory loads. We used to shoot .357 110gr Speer Law Man ammo and it was way to hot for the 66s we carried. We could never make it through qualifing without a gun or two locking up. We would have to beat the cylinder on the side of the post to get it open. They finally switched to the 158gr and our problems went away. About 10 years ago the Patrol went to Brettas and they seem to really like them other than some complain about the size. I think we need to start a new thread, Bravo, FORDS SUCK AND CHEVIES RULE!!!(HA).
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 15:01:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Don <don@libertyoutfitters.comd>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 15:17:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.177.58.17)

Don <don@libertyoutfitters.comdd>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 15:27:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.177.58.17)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 15:39:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.45)

Semper Fi is short for "Semper Fidelis", a latin phrase meaning "Always Faithful". It is the motto of the United States Marine Corps.
 
 

-Leslie
 
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 16:10:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)

I've heard that tightening the action/stock bolts to 60-65 inch pounds is necessary for best accuracy with Remington 700 Senderos (and similar aluminum block 700 models). Is this true? If so, what have you found the correct inch pounds of torque to be? How much difference does it really make, accuracy wise?

Due to winter snow and cold, I haven't been able to completely wring out my new 7mm Mag Sendero SF yet, but so far it isn't as accurate as I'd hoped. Maybe 3/4 MOA average. I was wondering if the purchase of a $70 torque wrench is indicated or warranted.

I was also wondering if anyone has feedback on 7mm Sierra 130 gr MK's?

Thanks!
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 16:12:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.110)

Grab the cell phone, jump out the window, call the cops, and hope the dog wins?

CDC: ...go to one of the Thunder Ranch, Storm Mountain, Front Sight or Gunsite and TAKE THE TRAINING.

Adding up the costs of round trip airfare, hotel costs, not to mention the training costs and time away from work, that's kinda steep. For that price, I can get two more dogs AND a new Kimber.

I've only experienced one intruder, and I think he was someone from the neighborhood with a real bad sense of etiquette. In broad daylight, he didn't knock, just let himself in, and my dog bit him and held him right there at the door until I wandered in to see what the yelling and growling was all about. While he was complaining about the bite marks on his wrist, I told him that he'd have a matching boot mark on his ass if he didn't leave immediately, which he did. I happily served my dog a T-bone steak for dinner that evening.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 16:18:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 16:29:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.45)

Point is if your comfortable and practice with a pistol and it's in good working order then there's no debate over which is better in my opinion other than the caliber.

The gear I used was a Kimber 45 full size, Blade Tech IWB holster and mag pouches, Surefire 6Z, 230 gr plinkers (mixed) and skate board tape wherever needed. Worked great for me....

This year I'm taking the Carbine courses. Oh what fun !!!
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 16:36:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 16:55:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.165)

Glocks: I've owned a few. 19's, 17's and a 22 with both .40 and .357 Sig barrels. None was super accurate. They were all reliable, once drop-free metal lined mags came out. But before that rounds tended to get jammed up due to the plastic mag sides swelling out. Glocks still all have one major fault, IMHO. Namely, their odd grip angle causes old 1911 shooters, like me, to shoot high when not using the sights.

1911's: If you have a reliable 1911, you've got a winner. A heavy winner, but a winner. Half of the detectives I knew carried 1911's and they always got the job done (except once when a Lt. forgot to cock the hammer on his 1911 and almost got whacked). Before that I was the only one carrying cocked and locked and took a lot of heat because of it. You can bet the cocked-carry harassment stopped after the Lt's close call!

Sigs: My present #1 carry pistol is a compact 9mm Sig 239 single-stack with Hogue rubber grips and nite sights. At 25 yards off sandbags it will put em all in one ragged hole. It never malfunctions, plus it's grip angle is similar to that of my old 1911's so I can hit well with it even when instinct shooting. It's the perfect concealed carry 9mm, at least to this old boy's way of thinking it is.

.45 vs 9mm? I never noticed that it made much difference on the street. They both worked just fine on BG's. (38 specials, now that's a different story. Every "failure to stop" that I remember involved 38 specials that didn't penetrate far enough.) Come to think of it, every failure to stop elk that I've seen was due to insufficient penetration too.

Rifle vs pistol? A rifle will do all that needs doing, near and far, and do it with one shot per BG. A pistol won't. Think about going into "real" combat armed only with a pistol and you'll get the idea.

Which is the fastest shooting, a semi-auto or a DA revolver? Ever see Bob Munden work out with an old cowboy SA sixgun? There isn't anyone faster that I know of, regardless of pistol type. (By the way, I've heard that Bob winged himself in the leg once when his shooting speed managed to exceed his drawing speed. But that was long ago and maybe just a rumor?)

Stay safe!
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 17:13:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.110)

Thank you,
Patrick Flack
patrickflack@hotmail.com
Patrick Flack <patrickflack@hotmail.com>
Rutherfordton, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 17:15:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.10.28.222)

I've hunted Rocky Mountain high country wilderness areas 6 weeks a year for 16 years now and think I have the correct survival kit worked out. Bear in mind that weight and bulk both make a difference when hunting on foot miles into the wilderness so my list is a fairly short, light one.

1. Firestarter: The dry brown stick type works best, in my experience. It's lightweight, and essential, so take 6-8 sticks minimum.
2. Matches/lighters: Fill an old, waterproof pill bottle with "strike anywhere" big kitchen matches, plus carry 2-3 small BIC lighters.
3. Saw: Buck or similar, small fixed blade saw.
4. Lightweight waterproof nylon tarp, about 6'x 8'.
5. Aluminum drinking/cooking cup: I use light 1 qt pot from WalMart.
6. S&W aluminum .22 revolver (12 oz) plus 100 rounds .22 ammo.
7. 20 packs of tea, cider mix, coffee, etc.
8. 50' of parachute cord.
9. Compass, plus an extra compass.
10. Map of area.
11. Small bottle of meds: asprin, tylenol #3, Vivrin stay awake pills, plus any prescription meds you may need.
12. Lightweight metal cooking pot fire grate (1 0z).
13. One 12 oz bottle of vodka.
14. One roll of injury/sports tape.
15. Money. Coins and bills.
16. Leatherman tool, or similar.

There may be more that I'm forgetting, but when all is said and done the matches, firestarter, compass and map are all that's really needed here in the Rockies. Everthing else is "nice" to have, but not mandatory.

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 17:54:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.110)

In a 7 Mag? Don't waste your time. The mags prefer a heavy bullet for best performance. Come to think of it, most cartridges prefer a heavy bullet for best performance. Now that's windage mainly, but trajectory is usually better also at very long range. Within reason of course. I have used the 130 SMK's in a 7mm-08 bolt gun to experiment with. But I have settled on the 150SMK's as better for the 200 yard line and the 300RFP phase. At 600 and back, the 168's(Formerly used SMK's, now I use 168 JLK VLD's in both the 7-08 and the 7mm Rem Mag) come out and stay out. I'm going to try the 180gn JLK VLD's this coming year. I bought a substantial bit(1000) and will see how they do. I hope they don't suck, because that's a bit of money tied up in these things. One of these days, I'm going to quit looking for the ideal LR bullet and just stick to one bullet and crank out a bunch of them. Semper Fidelis....
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 18:25:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)

I visited the page that had pictures and text about the M1A that blew up a short while ago.

I hope they do a gas-spectrum analysis on residue in the gun. I wouldn't be surprised to see tell-tale signs of explosives.

Many years ago in counterinsurgency efforts guerrilla caches would be seeded with small arms ammunition containing explosives instead of propellant.(a dirty trick to be sure)

I've never seen such a catastrophic failure in a rifle in my life. It is hard to believe conventional propellant of any kind could cause such an event.

Just one more reason to roll your own.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmusssack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 18:41:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Mike L: may I suggest purchasing your dog a new Kimber? And while you're at it, explain to the local constabulatory that you'll purchase whomever saves your butt a new Kimber also, after an intruder shoots your dog and takes his Kimber. I suppose that as long as you purchase the equipment, you'll master it's use without training. Also, I was TAUGHT how to load, and the load in question was in fact a factory round. With a loose primer pocket, upon inspection. BTW: I've never had any kind of bad load that I whipped up, low, high, or otherwise. But I learned from a great guy. If I thought I could learn "just as well" without formal schooling, Patron Mike, Jeff Cooper, Rod Ryan, etc wouldn't be taking any of my cash home with them. As it is, I feel that there is a reason, and I'm the better for having put forth the effort and time (and money).

Jim the Plumber: if you don't purchase a M-14 (not M1A), FAL, or HK-91, then you ought to write yourself a letter in triplicate as to why. The M-14 is my choice, but I'd feel good with the FAL too. The HK is no slouch either, but I personally prefer the M-14 or a FAL.

So I pulled the Taurus out of the holster last night, unloaded it, and put it in the safe next to the Beretta. Now the CZ lives in my kit. I sure hope you guys aren't spoofin' me, 'cause it was hard to do! So is someone gonna tell me the CZ fails too?

Pat: If Chevs rule, it's not the quarter mile strip, nor the road races. That's the domain of the Mustang and the Henessey Venom Viper ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 18:44:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

But I really wonder about your item...

15. Money. Coins and bills.

... is this the one you use when you say "Please Mr Bear, I give you $50 if you don't chew my foot off."

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 18:55:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)

I'm with you on carrying the "unscheduled bivouac" kit. Mine includes five twenties.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 19:23:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.26)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 19:39:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.23)

Survival cash? We rescued a lost hunter just last November. It took us several hours because it was over 20 miles back to his truck via icy, rutted, forest service roads, plus 20 more miles back to where we were camped, and it didn't cost him a penney. But not everybody is as nice as we are. So IMHO it would be a good idea to carry enough cash to be able to bribe strangers into spending several hours chauffeuring you back home, not to mention coins for a pay phone, buying dinner and maybe even renting a motel room. Where we are you could very well come out on the wrong side of a mountain (like the guy we rescued) and it could still be a long, long way back home, especially if you had no money.

BTW, the items I listed weigh less than 5 pounds, which is still a lot to haul around the mountains. Plus, I forgot to include the Scorpion flashlight and extra batts.

And here I thought everyone would question the vodka! (Which eases the panic and (along with stay-awake pills) makes being out all night at 20 below seem like a party!!)
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 19:43:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.110)

Samal

Samal <Knife_1@hotmail.com>
Pinchatooly, PA, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 19:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.91.144.67)

Yes, that too high for the BC of the 140gr/264 bullet...
But I would suspect your technique... put the first chrono at 15 feet (first screen), and the second chrono at 315 feet, so the center between them is 100 yds, but the first screen is out of the blast zone.
Make the measurements VERY CARFULLY, and try again.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 20:17:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.23)

Let me add one short story, a true one, about two young air force hunters who got lost here and died. They parked at a fire tower located high up in the mountains at the dead end of a forest service road. They foolishly left their well equiped survival packs in their vehicle, apparently intending to just "scout" the area for a short time. My guess is that they mistakenly didn't worry about not being able to get back to the tower which could be seen for miles in good weather.

Unfortunately, a big snow storm moved in and over the next few days dumped 3-4 feet of snow on them. They apparently got lost due to the blinding "white-out" conditions that prevailed and walked the wrong way. The next spring their bodies were found 20 miles deeper into the mountains. Out here it's possible to walk over 100 miles without crossing a road. My kit, or theirs, probably would have saved them.

We always carry survival gear in the mountains, winter or summer. Why? For the same reason we always carry a rifle in our vehicle and a pistol on our person (legally with CCW permits.) Because the good Lord loves the well prepared.
Flash <Skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 20:29:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.110)

Can anyone offer advise for a paint job that has been used with success ( e.g. been in the field with someone looking for you) with pattern and color selection for making their rifle 'disappear'. I can easily give it a paint job to give it that 'commando' look from across the room, but I want it to blend in from a distant observer. Thanks, BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 20:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.23.180.130)

1. If you have a reliable 1911, you've got a winner.

2. Any of thier modifications that didn't work were discarded years ago.

3.Triggers and mainspring housings can be changed on the 1911 series.

4.So a little extra training is needed to program the muscle memory. No sweat.

5.coveted-trick-top-name gunsmith toy goes bang, bang, jam, bang, jam, @#$*(&^^%!!!

6.I own a few different 1911 types and have worked on many. You can take just about any 1911 and put $120 of parts (wholesale) and about 4-5 hours into them and just about all of them make fine, reliable shooters.

7.There is a point of bad egonomics in the 45. The grip will cause initial problems with aquiring sights in a rapidly developing situation (read aw crap!!!). The barrel will point low. We used to show new guys how the weapon will shoot low if held "naturally" in the hand and fired ala the FBI crouch and shoot form the hip bull. Yes this was some years back boys and girls. The colt model 45 equires a slight up tilt of the wrist to settle on target properly and only minimum practice puts this into muscle memory.

8.it's 100% for at least the first 50 to 100 rounds,

9.perform better with a 1911. Yes, given that it has been properly tuned.

10.It has never jumped up and shot me.
 
 
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 20:40:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

"I know 2 or three expert pistolero's who you would probably know that are/were walking around with 1 testacle missing while playing
"quick and dead" with a 1911 Colt."

That's just priceless.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 21:19:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.29)

Also, it's a good idea to have a large survival pack in your car. This has saved my butt twice.
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Snowing, in Colorado, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 21:45:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

Not a bad idea. Not only is he quick enough to beat me to all points of entry, he can dope Friend Or Foe at O-dark-30 with uncanny accuracy and speed, unlike Moi.

Bravo: I suppose that as long as you purchase the equipment, you'll master it's use without training.

Hmmm. Well, the Jaycees tought me gun safety, how to shoot a BB gun, and how to compete in marksmanship back when I was around 12. I continued with marksmanship training thereafter with a .22 rifle at a local national guard armory. Also, thereafter at many Boy Scout camp grounds.

Years ago, I retired my single stage Lyman press, replacing it with a Dillon XL-650 progressive because I was expending so much handgun ammo punching holes in paper targets at the range. If you missed the picture I posted of 6 out of 6 in the X-ring at 25 yards with my own +P .44 handloads, scroll back a week or so.

Therefore, I have ample training and practice with paper targets, so I feel comfortable shooting at paper targets. I do not have training nor the practice necessary for clearing a house of intruders, so the world would be safer if I didn't wing it. Hence, the guns stay in the safe.

Bravo: BTW: I've never had any kind of bad load that I whipped up, low, high, or otherwise.

Neither have I (knock on wood), but I personally know two smart individuals who have - one of which didn't realize it, sending another round down the pipe, necessitating a new barrel for his Glock.

Bravo: As it is, I feel that there is a reason, and I'm the better for having put forth the effort and time (and money).

If and when Wisconsin passes a CCW law, I might consider it.
 
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 22:33:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

The 1911/Glock debate: Everyone keeps insisting Glocks shoot high compared to 1911s. I must have weird hands, then, cause my G30 and the G19s and G23s I have shot all point/hit right on for me, as well as the full-size frame 1911s. The large Glocks (17,22,31, 34 etc) do aim a little high, but not all do. A friend of mine had the same experience, he shoots the compacts better than the fullsizers in Glocks.
Brian Fulton <blfulton45@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 23:08:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.131.100)

You should give Chucky Schumer a call. I'm sure he'd love your idea of confiscating all firearms from anyone who refuses to cross the country to take a professional multi-day training/licensing course at great expense to the gun owner. I bet Dianne Feinstein would love the idea too. Hell, there's enough gun grabbers in Congress that Hillary Clinton herself would probably propose naming a holiday after you for coming up with such a brilliant plan.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 23:38:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 16, 2001 at 23:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Mike Miller - you still out there?
I am going to send the rest of the cash for the course - send it to you via TIS still OK?

Just getting caught up on the last (lost) month of no service.

What's with this SA/DA stuff - the onlt times I like the DA (SIG or Glock) is in a fanny pack, and I realise that that is just me being paranoid.
Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 00:15:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

*throws in his II cents*
Charlie
Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
Jonesboro, AR, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 00:22:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.64.24.192)

Mike L: CDC explained it quite well. Since I'm one of the "rugged individualists" around here, I view anyone not willing to take responsibility for his safety as somewhat odd. And yes, I caught that group. The Python put 5 out of 6 in a large cloverleaf with a shred of paper between the "hole" and the 6th, and the Bar-Sto Taurus will put 10 in your group size. As for your concealled carry permit, I understand, really I do. But your concealled carry permit was issued 200 years ago, and trading your God given right for a state given priviledge isn't really all that high on my list. I honestly do understand, and agree, they're better left unloaded in the safe. BTW: there's a difference between "should" and "will force", not to mention "sell" and "have confiscated".
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, safe from brass monkeys, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 00:39:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.24)

>>"Glocks don't shoot high. 1911's shoot low."<<...

not so Dude!... well with all the different opinions on what shoots high, and what shoots low, I guess there may be another variable in the cookie mix... like the size, and shape of the hand... ya' think???

I think the Luger is the worlds ONLY handgun that EVERYBODY points naturally... the rest??? It depends on the hand.
I shoot 1911's with a straight backstrap, and I can close my eyes, bring it up, open my eyes, and I'll be dead on (and at 2 in the morning, the bad guy in my bedroom door will be dead... period!!).
I can point shoot them in a matc, without concern.

But I'll be the first-ust to admit my hands are like snow shoes... I could palm a basket ball when I was 12.
I've got good, skilled, shooting buddies that can't pointshoot with a 1911... they have to "aim" it...
So I think there is merit to discussing which guns are reliable, which are easy to fix, which break when dropped... but as to fit, that's like blonds and brunettes... it's each to his own... speakin of which... TORSTEN... I NEED TO MEET THAT WOMAN!!! BAAAAAD ;)))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 00:41:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)

Let's not continue this fight.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 00:47:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.111)

What CDC said... leave those guns in the safe!!!
As Martha Stewart would say... "And that's a GOOD thing".

Bravo...
>>"you gripey old coot!"<<... I love it!!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 00:48:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)

Got off my dead rearend and FINALLY sent the HTI book to you via UPS. Enclosed is the adjustable rings we discussed.

Why all the hubaloo over the Glocks? Got 3 and couldn't be happier.

The "blown" M1A was from bonehead tumbling dirty LOADED ammo. You know what that does to the powder, right? W. German mil-surp ammo was used.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 00:53:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.215.0.2)

Tumbled "LOADED" rounds... VERY BADD.
Back in the 60's there was a case of a really badly blown up rifle, and the rest of the ammo was sent to the H.P. White labs.
The box of ammo was sitting in a tool box, under the seat of a ranchers pickup truck for several years. He found the ammo, and shot it... first shot took the gun (and him) apart.
HP White found the ammo proofed at well over 300,000 psi (the max of their guages)... they pulled the ammo, and found that the constant vibration had broken the kernels of powder down to dust.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 01:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)

Hi:
 

Some of you may recognize me as a frequent contributor to some of the
lists that I am spamming here today :) For those of you that are unfamiliar
with me, in another life I was a professional gunsmith and was a
competitive shooter. Now I have less time to do these things as I am
working on a masters in education, specializing in business education. One
of my requirements is to take a 500 level course in economics, and the one
I selected was Economics and the Law. A major part of my grade in this
class is a semester paper and presentation on one of the topics to be
covered, one of which is product liability.
 

I am considering doing my paper and presentation on product liability as
it relates to firearms. I have some personal experience here: I was once
employed as a technical consultant on a potential law suit concerning
defective SKS trigger groups. Owing to various problems with the
plaintiffs case, I don't belive that a suit was ever filed. In any event,
its at least something that I have a little experience in.
 

What I need is pointers to information on lawsuits regarding product
liability and firearms. The way I see it now, it will be broken down into
two major sections: one on claimed actual defects in materials, workmanship
and design in firearms (three screw Ruger Blackhawks, the aforementioned
SKS trigger groups and the like), and legal theories on wether firearms as
a class are a legitimate subject for litigation. I need books, case law,
magazine articles, whatever you have.
 

Thanks:
 

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 01:30:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

Kevin of the Great (and I'm sure quite WHITE) North: Yup, if I can figure out how to parlay what I've got into a Kimber, I'll do it, pretty much regarless of which one or how. If not, I'll see about tossing $100 into this Springfield at the Gunsite Smithy to make it work, or just pester Springfield with it until they get off their dead asses and do right by me. They have no fear of what I'll say about their products in public, that's been made COMPLETELY clear. If you danged slowgunners hadn't talked me into building a bolt gun, I'd have the cash to get that Kimber and a stack of Wilson mags.....
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 01:38:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.24)

BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
In front of the Tube toinght, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 02:18:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.19.22)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 02:18:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Jon - Make sure that the armor crews are wearing MILES as well as their tank. You can raise havoc with them by shooting their driver and commander when they are in an open hatch. this is really fun to watch while they are on the move. REMEMBER though that you MUST not compensate for range, wind or movement. The laser is uneffected by these physical concepts that material objects must abid by but energy does not. You can also raise havoc during rear trains loading of the beasties. Look also for areas that they are stopped to confer on which map sheet that they are lost on. ;-) Those suckers go over map sheets like in nothing flat.

Kevin - You are right, we did salt ammo with "hot loads" :-) However, e never, to my knowledge, ever salted western style ammo for that very reason. 7.62 x 39, 7.62x54R, B40, hand grenades that went boom on release, such as that. Not 7.62 NATO, to easy for it to come back and haunt us. Then again in Honduras did have an RPG go boom right out of the barrel, and that was traced to SEA. Wonder if someone was trying to tell me something.

Back to RIFLE country

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 02:28:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.207)

That is the Question
 

Naw,

I will wait till tomorrow, all the Roaster blood and gore should be cleaned up by then.
 
 

Chao-ski!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 02:28:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.31)

I would say that it was a steel flaw in the barrel, that gave way, and you know what happens when that happens... a safe pressure all of a sudden can rip everything apart.
There was none of the signs of the amount of pressure it takes, if it was a pressure only event.
The case didn't flow, and the primer wasn't pierced (hell, it wasn't even flat!!)... something that happens at around 80,000 psi.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 02:35:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)

The M1A in question, I studied the pictures, and looked very closely at the fracture points...........
I'm no metalurgist expert, but I concur with lito' on why this rifle vaporized.
If you look closely at the photo's, esp of the reciever, you can tell where it appears to have had the "beginning's" of fatigue, and an OLD stress fracture point. Not only in one place but two.
In my past days, I used to deal with a lot of different metals, you could ALways tell why, and where a failure occured by inspecting discolorations, and granular texture of stress points......i.e...fresh break v.s. old break.
I don't even think incorrect powder, of any kind could cause this type of damage.
Maybe if it was loaded with C4, or NITRO..........(:@)
Either way, the dude is one lucky somamagum...........

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 03:03:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.49)

Detonation is a different process, involving wave fronts, and doesn't need to be confined. Smokeless powder can't detonate under any circumstamces... that's why we can buy it with a blasting license.

Smokeless powder is actually "deflagration", and requires confinment to develop energy.

True overpressure "blowups" show melted/fused brass that has brased itself to the bolt face, and nothing is left of the primer... this was not the case here.

If it were a true detonation, there wouldn't have been any survivors, and the pieces (read shrapnel) would've been hundreds of yards away.

This is most likely a flaw in the barrel that let go, releasing all that gas all over the gun.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 03:20:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)

The rifle was a 30-06 M1, WW2 vintage but still in good condition.

The load, believe it or not, was 46.0 grains of 231 behind a 150 grain bullet! This was what was marked on the box of handloads. This was no accident, this was plain incompetence and stupipity by someone who wanted to use one powder for everything from 9mm to 30-06.
As he had plenty of 231, that is what he used.

The rifle was blown to bits, although not quite as much as the M1A.

The firer(not the person who loaded the rounds), had injuries to his hands, arms and face. If he hadn't been wearing safety glasses he would have lost an eye. There was a large deep gouge in the lens of the glasses.

The firer to his right was badly bruised by flying pieces of the stock.

I was about ten feet to the right of the rifle when it exploded and it was like being next to a large thunderflash or artillery simulator.

It is not something that I need to experiance again. Nor does the firer.

The phrase "Learn by other peoples mistakes. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself" comes to mind.

Sniff
 
 
 

Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 04:02:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.154.128.47)

1) I never bad mouthed anyone's choice of handgun,
2) shooters who employ the standard manipulation drills use the 1911 as safely as any other handgun, and
3) the most effective pistol shots I have ever seen used the 1911 and the CZ.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That's it. That's all. Is it over?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 04:52:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.152)

Hmmm, seems some yahoo last night decided to go on a kamakazi mission and run his truck up the stairs of the Ca. State Capital building. Guys fuel tanks ripped from the truck as it went through the doors and then they ignited on fire. The Sacramento Bee is saying that he was a Sacramento Parolee with a grudge against Gov. Gray Davis.

This kinda reminds me of the plane that ran into the White House not too long back.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/beelive/show_story.cgi?truck

I'm surprised that the Capital building doesn't have a mini Berlin Wall around it so that the peons can't rise up against their magnificient leaders. You can bet that there will be some kind of "vehicle catcher" after this, probably a cement and steel cable arrangment designed to catch the bumper and stop the looney. I heard that after the Oklahoma bombing that the Ca. Capital building had automatic barriers put in the entrances and exits of the underground parking space so that nobody could blow by the gate gaurds and blow the place skyward, I also heard that the barriers were malfunctioning and occasionally closing on a politians car or two so most of the time the barriers aren't armed.
 

Crazy suicidal guy: 0
Collosal stationary building: 1
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 09:20:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

Any opinions on whats a good basic survival kit to take with you on a general aviation aircraft?

(You guys would laugh your asses of if you saw the "survival kit" that is standard issue for our aircraft at this university.)

I know its not sniping but what the hell, neither are KimberGlock1911's and that thread is beat to death.

Later,
C R C

Oh yea... any USMC FAST Pac Marines out there? Drop me a line...
(Other than the esteemed CWO we all know. How you doing sir?)
C R C <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Grand Forks ND, ND, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 09:27:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.129.135.98)

I mean that kind of thing is just appaling to the average citizen.

~C R C
 

C R C <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Grand Forks ND, ND, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 09:37:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.129.135.98)

God bless all

Bud

Bud <offah@hotmail.com>
Greens Fork , In., USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 10:47:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.106.153.74)

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 11:40:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.83.118.152)

Master Rick,
 

How have the latest lots of M-118LR been shooting down thar??? Inquiring minds want to know!
 

Thanski!
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 12:03:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.176)

Danny,
I haven't shot any myself but have talked with a couple of guys who have and from some of the comments on other sights they are not up to MK standards for accuracy. You may want to try a box though they may be the thing for your rifle, guns are like women, there all different!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 14:06:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

'lito - just a quick question - I lapped my Badgers on my Near base and now I have a Badger base - should I get new rings or relapp or are they good to go? Andy Webber of AT tells me they'll be fine - but I want a second opinion.

Anyone got a good price on Black Hills w/175gr / 500rds?
Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 14:45:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Stan/Bravo, if cash is what you need trade that Springfield toward part of the class fee and use the cash you would have used toward a new Kimber. James and I split the class fee minus expenses so I can work with you toward my part. Give me a call this week end and let me know. I would rather have another 1911 than cash anyday.

Rick, as usual you put it in a nuttshell.

Gooch, partially correct about US Optics and the Marine corp scope. US Optics has a repair contract for the USMC Unertals. No one has the contract for the new scopes yet. The new Unertal compay last I heard had no contract with the USMC, but is going full hog into the scope business. I hear they have hired some of the original guys so the quality should be great again. Great to hear they are going to make the spotting scopes again.

Pablito, you still mean as ever? LOL

Bill R., I just read the post about experts shooting themselves or ND's by them. The true expert is someone you pay to tell you how they learned from fng up and how to avoid fng up yourself. Pay for what they have learned. I will take a man that has learned from mistakes over one who never ventured and therefor never improved. Take care my friend.

Pete, the Varget of 300/338's is RL22! That is a great powder.

Mike/Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 15:02:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Darrel
Darrel Fritts <tool_dieguy@email.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 15:24:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.11.184)

Quick question. Can you give us the burn rate for "owl poop"?

Have a great horned one spotted and may raid the nest for my 6.5 X .284...;-)

Wes
(The Smartass)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 16:17:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.6.15.20)

I've had good luck with second tier used scopes -Good B&L models in the $100 range. Way ahead of the stuff that costs that new.
I know one guy up this way who was outfitting .308 VSSs with Eurolux scopes (all kinds of lies about those), bipods and selling them for $1100. Christmas! I happened to be in the shop when one of the customers was picking his up -then he started asking about how he could focus the scope, and how accurate would it be, at 25yds!! I was too dumbfounded to open my mouth, I didn't even know where to start. I really felt bad for that rifle.

Chris
Chris <cweinbeck@hotmail.com>
Westford, Massachusetts, uSA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 16:38:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.32.79.67)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 16:46:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.148)

Patron Mike: sounds as if you've made me a "deal I can't refuse". Sir Wes rattled someones cage at Springfield for me this morning, maybe something will happen. But I doubt it. Personally, I'm ready to give up and get a (are you listening Pete?) KIMBER. Should be really interesting to see what lives in the LBE holster come June.

CDC: you advocated what has done well by you. That's all I or anyone else would do. Granted, there was some humor in there, but we all joke around with eachother.
Bravo - :Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 18:17:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 21:34:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 17, 2001 at 21:54:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.8)

Inquiring Halfminds want to know
Thanks
Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 00:42:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

Wild Bill: you're way behind. I'm working on making it a long night. Don't bother knocking, c'mon in. Now if I can just figure out which one of you jokers stole my bottle opener and my Jimmy Buffet tapes......
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
funny how dinner ruins a good buzz, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 01:55:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.108)

UnDude-ski...
Yup... mean as ever ;))... where the hell have you been... you overdose on those moly cocktails??
Do you have the name and number (or website) of the company that's making Unertl stuff... I have money for them (and a repair!!).

Nom de' Plume, (aka "Smartass" ;)...
Yeah, about 69% faster than bullseye ;)

Breakpoint...
Jeez, I take a steenkin day off from fooling around, and go make some money, and the .45 thread is DEAD ;((
11-87P, 3" magnum Police is beaudatious... mine shoots everything from 3" mag slugs, to 2 3/4" paper skeet loads... never failed.
Benelli??? Eh!
Rem 870P is absolute King!!... HEY didn't we do this one about a month ago???

Bravo...
"Semantics"??? Naw... their use of the word "detonation" is sloppy usage.
It all started back in the 60's, when some jerk threw a double charge of Bullseye in a Star machine (it didn't have a "failsafe" at the time).
He tried to sue Dupont (and you wanna know why they're out of the powder business???)... and claimed that the Bullseye "DETONATED" and blew up his gun.
Well, bullseye was off the market for several years, while H.P. White tried E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G to detonate Bullseye... #8 blasting caps... Tetryl booster charges, the whole banana up to and including 200 grain Det cord (aka Primacord!)... nada, they could never get the stuff to go "boom" even though it's about 20% nitroglycerine... Bullseye came back on the market, and the phrase "detonation" stuck for any unusial pressure excursion.
the issue with light charges of very slow powders has happened from time to time, and is caused by the powder not fully catching, and the bullet being forced into the throat... where is gets "stuck"!!
you know about "sticksion"... also known as the "Blish effect" (famous artillary engineer)... the bullet sticks in the throat, and the slow powder starts to burn, and the pressure rises... but the bullet is still stuck!... by now, the deterrent coating has burned off, and the burning rate is now faster (as if the bullet were going down the barrel), and it takes off... but the bullet is still stuck... and BANG!... it blows up... but it doesn't detonate, it just exceeds the safe pressure in a "progressive" burning mode... except the progressive burning is too fast for the dynamics.
It used to be believed that it was detonation, but it is understood to be a change in the burning rate, because of the delayed release of the bullet.
Sorry for that (there will be a test in the morning).

Tom Hayes...
I've had a Gen "one" SA scope with their rangefinding reticle, for about 8 years, and I like it. I wouldn't get a Gen II or Gen III.

'yote Bate...
Lookie you ol' "cootie"... it's all in fun. The beer is on me.
Us fossiles gotta stick together ;)) We're a dyin' breed ;((

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 02:31:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.70)

Keep one thing in mind at NTC. You are the slowest, shortest ranged, fragile critter on the battlefield. I have worked both sides of the house down there, last time last March as BLUFOR, and the crunchie has problems. Sight lines of 20k are not that uncommon.
1) Put scopes on your M-16's. Get most of the range, and a hell of a lot more versatility when the dismounts chase you. Critters from the back of the Bradleys and there will be a light infantry battalion augmenting the heavy brigade. They will chase you like dogs.
2) Shooting at TC's is emotionally satisfying BUT vehicle crews are notorious for inop MILES, and the EXROE allows them to be head and shoulders out of the hatch while still being considered under armor.
3) This is why God created artillery. Get your boys really good at call for fire, and fire planning. Hitting moving targets is an art, requiring a calculator and malice aforethought. FM 6-30 is your friend. Plus a radio call is hard to backtrack. Especially when the fired up unit is doing CASEVAC. Well thought out and executed fireplan is a beautiful thing.
4) Take every piece of optical gear you can find. See your S-2 and get an intervisibilty line overlay. Remember those sightlines.
5) Go to Wally World and buy HS nylon mesh camo screens with lots of brown in them. One for each man. Won't protect you from thermals, but works exceptionaly well against even a moderatley thorough optical search.
6) If you are seen, run. Come back later and have your way with them from a long way off.

Remember the other (more important) job of the sniper: collection of battlefield intelligence. The shot is sexy, but the intel wins wars.

Ed <eaengler@hotmail.com>
Ft drum, NY, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 02:39:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.24.196.83)

The Hirtenberger ammo that I have has a thin copper jacket over steel with a lead core. Two Shoes had suggested the obvious "magnet test" which confirmed the suspicions.
I took a file to a couple of bullets that I pulled and sure enough, thin copper jacket over thin steel.
Do they do that for increased penetration?
I have not shot it through any of my tactical rifles, but I have shot a lot of it through one of my older M1A rifles with a GI barrel.

Does it will really increase wear 2x or more? I have a bunch of it "just in case."

I am looking forward to having a Bravo Brew and trying to read wind this July out at ASA!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 02:46:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

The article is "Long-Range Warriors: The M40 USMC Rifles"....

Cool, eh?
 
 
 
 
 

-Leslie
 
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 02:53:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.65)

Kevin of the North,
You got to quit using that weapon to shovel snow. Has salt in it!

Bravo Brewmaster,
Need to get you one of those new talking beer openers!

Nothing much to add on the 45 thread, shoot what you got and shoot a lot!

A bored Bolt, Out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 03:01:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.139)

'lito,

The OWL poop powder burns 69% faster than bullseye? Great. We could market it as the most energy/cost efficient powder extant. I figure about 1.5 gr for our .45's and a 230 grainer vice 5.0 gr B'eye!

Probably wouldn't work out, as it's hard to get a steady supply of...
Only thing I can get a steady ration of shit from is my boss and my wife(she who must be obeyed).

Will probably drop into the lurk mode for a few weeks until you guys get the 1911 vs. whatever out of your systems.

Take some advice from one of us old farts. It's the man, not the gun!

'Nuff said?

S/F,

Wes
(The Wise, The Smartass, and God knows what else! DON"T ask my wife!_
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 03:12:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.147)

Michael: I'm going to do my shooting after work in the spring, there's LOTS of wind out here. Usually I shoot before work, makes ALL the difference. Thanks for the ammo info, Cool. I'm gonna order up some of that good German milsurp as I can. Dunno what the idea was behind the steel jacket, but it tends to penetrate 10 cm and then do the same blow-up that the 55 FMJ's do from a good 223. That's a good "just in case" thing. Besides, I figure that if I get into a mess where I really need it, my life expectancy won't be long enough to wear out a good chrome lined GI barrel with it.

Patron Mike: take that as a challenge ;-) You thinking CQB class for 2002? Hows about a nice battle rifle class? Nah, *BOTH*! There's the ticket!

Patron 'Lito: you did a GOOD JOB on that one! Not only learned the name, but my example given was arty. *BUT* I never pieced the capability of doing that with a round to the text book answers. Don't see why it wouldn't be just so! If the H-block on a Thompson can do that, I don't see why a slug couldn't. Then you add in the porous nature of bimetalics, and that's not a bad theory at all. Slug starts down the barrel, and sticks due to a bad powder induced "hangfire". Pressures go skywards, the barrel rips, and things get bad. But we've still got to explain the casing. As you noted, overpressure isn't suggested, and due to the fact the neck is still visible in the split case, I'd think that it was just fine until close to or after extraction, which puts the "plug" in front of the gas port? MIT, here we come!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now entering Margaritaville, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 03:39:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.192)

I was talking about the comment about light charges of 296/H110 "detonating" in a pistol. When guns go because of the "Blish effect" it has the classical look of high pressure... the melted/fused case head, and the lugs set back before the action let go.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 03:57:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.75)

P.S. Ken Hunter....know what the lotto numbers are gonna be on Sat? That was great on F.O.!!!!!!!!!
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 04:03:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.45.77.175)

P.S. Ken Hunter....know what the lotto numbers are gonna be on Sat? That was great on F.O.!!!!!!!!!
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 04:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.45.77.175)

'lito Thanks consider it done (Hey Greg I need your lapping bar)

Ken - so much for anonymity.

Anyone know hoe Colt's LE6920's are marked on the receiver?
I am looking for an M4 or M4A1 marked lower to go with my upper any ideas - And no I am not going over to AR15.com to ask.

Mike - hey if you are knocking off $ for guns you want a mint Brit L1A1 redone w/ all Cdn furniture (brand new unissued wood-don't ask). Then you could send some money back!
 

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 04:14:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

MicTac, did you receive my E-mail (re: AR sights)? I hate old computers, and their technical crap!

Lito posted:
>>>Well, bullseye was off the market for several years, while H.P. White tried E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G to detonate Bullseye... #8 blasting caps... Tetryl booster charges, the whole banana up to and including 200 grain Det cord (aka Primacord!)... nada, they could never get the stuff to go "boom" even though it's about 20% nitroglycerine...<<<<
 

'Lito, do you know if they tried contaminating the BE with a solvent like acetone?
This might come in handy some day(I hope not, but you never know), so here it is. You break the gunpowder(any flavor, you just need the nitrocellulose) down with acetone, and get a nice slurry. Mix in about 20-25% RDX(from C4) or PETN(from DetCord) by weight, and stir. Pour into mold. Let solvent evaporate. Instant cast explosive (called nipolit, invented by the Germans during WWII after they ran low on real HE) that goes off with a Dupont #8 usually(so I'm told), but I know it works with a USGI electric J2 or non-electric M8(?, with the built in 2gm boster). Once upon a time, back when micromanagement wasn't so bad(and you didn't have to have the gung-ho EOD idiots on your ass like stink), we had a little class on IED's. I'm really surprised we didn't get ourselves killed(or CID come looking for us). DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!! If you have all the stuff for this, you're either breaking the law, or you know more than me, so there. This is intended for informational use only(or some kind of armeggedeon thing when all bets are off), if you blow yourself up, I don't know you, and I haven't got any money anyway. Semper Fidelis..Ken M
 
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 04:31:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 04:36:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.54)

So we've got people going bonkers over the 6.5x284, has anyone gotten interested in doing a 300Winchester Short Mag?

Don't want to get too hyper active over all of this, the number of new rounds that come out and shortly there after flop once they are introduced the market is well documented. You guys think this new round is gonna meet the hype? Remington came out with the 300Rem Ultra Mag and I'm not sure if the jury is in on that one quite yet, now there is the new Win. Short Mag. and I'm wondering if the jury is even interested.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 05:38:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

This is what I was telling Jen last week. Do NOT LAP BADGER RINGS. Once the coating is removed, the things rust like mad. If you feel you must destroy the carefully machined alignment of the rings, then after you are done cutting to bare metal, spray them with paint or something to prevent further oxidation. Something more significant than a wipe of lube is necessary.

Buy a set of 30mm alignment bars from Brownells or somewhere as required. Set them in the rings and torque 'em down. If the rings prevent alignment (bar tips do not align), send them back. If they are straight, don't f*&k with them. Ring cross bolt nuts are to shooter's left.

Torque values.... vary with bolt/screw size. Leupold and Badger ring cap screws are 8-40. Ring cap bolts to lower ring halfs - Hex socket cap screws... no more than 18-20 in-lbs (socket head strips). TorQ head start at 22-24 in-lbs, if scope shifts, go up to 28 in-lbs. Start thinking about a little rosin powder on ring lowers. Ring cross bolts at 65 in-lbs. Replace your hex heads with T15 screws at earliest opportunity. Don't forget to record your torque values on maintenance page of your data book.... which you do have and use and update regularily and which is your Bible and which is never finished and with which you will never be satisfied. Buy one from Gooch... they are a good start.
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 06:01:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.246.248)

Yesterday I received (Andy opened before my return from work) The S.O.T.I.C. Sniper Training and Employment book from Paladin Press.

P.T.Barnum said it and I am one.

It has a nice cover and some heft to it. Once you open it the spell is broken. The mechanical/graphic construction of the document is poor

Now that I've spent my money I will read through it and play the "can I find the mistakes" game.

Do not waist your money on this book.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 12:50:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Bill0294...
Dude-ski... You gave "Good Jen" Baaaad info!!
Baaad Puppy!
The Badger rings aren't "perfect"... if they were, the first few laps would bring them to 100% white.
But when you lap them, you will find some areas start cleaning up while others aren't touched... this is the NOT the "mark" of PERFECTLY ALLIGNED RINGS!!!
So blow it out the window. You may be a Badger lover (I am), but don't turn it into a religious experence, and put Marty's toys on an alter... their stuff is very nice, but not perfect.

Rust??? give it a dab of "Oxpho-blue", (or any other cold blue), or just a wipe of gun oil... I have never had lapped rings rust.

And something to consider (that most don't 'til it's too late)...
The price of a pair of rings is about $100... even if they get a bit of rust on them, it's a minor loss, compared to the loss of value, when you "ring mark" a MK4 scope... you will loose a few hundred bucks when you go to sell it... and un-lapped Badger rings WILL "ring mark" a scope.

And as Kevin (from the North) said... don't lap aluminum rings... whatta mess (I got the tee shirt ;(

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, Jamarky 18, 2001 at 13:37:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.52)

Got the straight scoop on the Winchester Stealth's from Browning (who owns Winchester) the other day. They tell me that none will be shipped to the distributors till some time in mid April. So anyone wanting one will have till spring to wait. Myself included.

But, if any of you are interested I know a dealer who has ONE in 22-250 for $565.00 If your interested e-mail me and I'll give you the name and phone number.

Stay warm,

Danny
Danny Reever <Danny_Reever@nps.gov>
Gettysburg, Pa, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 14:18:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.83.118.152)

I see that we approach lapping differently. I respect your opinion and have learned a great deal from your postings. I use the Brownell alignment bars on the rings ... if they match (tips align), no lap (lazy). If the alignment was off, then I lapped. All of my Mark 4s were lapped with the resultant bulging forearms. Neither of two sets of Badgers are lapped.

FWIW(1) I will never lap another ring set. I'm not going to put up with inferior crap anymore. If it doesn't perform as expected, it goes back. Life's too short.

FWIW (2) All of my scopes have ring marks but they've never slipped in the field. I use acrylic model paint and airbrush for camo... tough but comes off fairly easily. But I'm not ever going to be able to sell them nor will they ever be confused for "as new"!

Both sets of my Badger rings have rusted. The Badger rings on a Ross rail rusted. The Ross rail didn't. My Badger trigger guard on the Chandler also rusted to the point that I had to disassemble to clean and reblue. My two Ross guards have never rusted. The one piece mount on the Chandler had light rust at the cap screw bores. I consider all of this routine maintenance but then I'm tough on equipment. Badger coatings are fragile but the foundation still rocks. Sorry if it sounded like a religious experience. They are the best. Be safe.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 15:19:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.246.248)

Getting to stuff more directly related to sniping(yes, demo is related to snipers, occasionally, but anyway) I was reading the article in the Rifleman about the M40A3 and I'm noticing the weight of the new rifle. 17.14lbs!!! WTF, over? That's without the can or the Simrad. Anybody else think this is WAYYY too much weight? Heavy rifles are slightly easier to shoot well, but this is far past the point of diminishing returns. Just when we get a fairly decent lightweight radio(the PRC-119F, about the size of a 12v motorcycle battery) the USMC goes and dumps more weight on the poor guy. This rifle weighes more than my magnum target gun, and that thing has a 28inch tube. I'm not even sure how they got the weight this high. Those RTE sickos putting depleted Uranium billets in the stock or something?
Get this. On pg 37, in the 'Ultimate Sniper Tool' sub-article, the OIC of the Precision Weapons Facility, Ken Davis admits the rifle is heavy as hell, but says "These are some pretty stout lads who go through sniper school". No kidding, but the idea is to have the gear make life easier, not harder. Hard training is good. Working hard in combat is NOT good. It's all great to be bulked up when you're sitting on a ship. lifting weights three(3) hours a day, and getting 5500 calories/day, but in the field you'll loose that mass in a hurry. When you look at photos of Hathcock or Mahwinny, or Settles in VN, they're aren't big guys. After a 5 or 7 day field op, that pig is gonna be heavy. I used to carry a M60E3, and because we were always short bodies, I humped my own A-bag, but I never liked it, and I was just doing basic grunt stuff. Snipers go above and beyond, and they have to be more foot mobile than crunchies, and this isn't a good way to do that. Anybody have any insight on why it's so damn heavy? Am I missing some basic point? Is the information even right?(wouldn't be the first time) Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 15:44:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)

I have talked with those guys about that book. After I got a copy of it from Paladin, I said to myself, "hell this is the final draft copy". Someone, somewhere took a copy of the "Final Draft" that was circulated throughout special operations units in 1992 (which I recieved a copy at 1st SFGA) for review by the field units before publishing and passed it to Paladin for some reason.

The final version of that book is somewhat thinner and much better done. That is an official military manual, but not the way that Paladin has it printed. In that format, I wrote 32 pages of corrections, suggestions, and deletions. Much of that format was simply cut and paste from 23-14, especially the data tables. There are the old M-14 windage data tables showing the deflection of the 173 gr. M118 bullet as 177 inches at 1000 meters in a 20 mph crosswind. We 308 shooters know that's about 80% off of reality.

Best advice, don't get that book. In the final form, it's okay, nothing spectacular, but like J Plaster's book, it's more of a rehash of stuff that's already out there. There are some exceptions though that does make it stand out from the standard army manuals. Sections on reloading, some of the stuff on urban operations, maintenace of the M-24 (most of which was out of the operators manual) etc.
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 16:06:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.221.144)

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 16:13:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 16:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

The only guy I ever knew to carry his 1911 on half-cock was a det I worked with. We all carried "Mexican style" in those days, with our 1911's stuck in our belts. We were on a robbery stake-out inside a Western Union and this guy checked his .45 to make sure he had a round in the chamber, etc., put it back on half-cock and shoved it back in his belt behind his right hip. It hung up on something and he shoved harder and ...BLAM!...it went off. He shot a hole right through his wallet and credit cards and was the brunt of jokes for a long time. Lucky for him he carried behind the hip, and not in front! Or maybe he'd have been one chad short.

The moral? 1911's are NOT made to be carried on half-cock. They are made to be carried on full cock, ith the safety on.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 17:00:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.108)

Stan/Bravo, Will do both a CQB Pistol and Carbine Class 2002. Will set the date swith James and let you guys know.

Kevin of the North. I live the Crazy State of Calif and we can't have them weapons no more. That will be changed in the future, my home that is, but right now I can not make the trade, as much as I would like another FAL type.

Talked with Tony White of Barrett today. I may get one of the 338 Lapua's for testing. That sounds great as this has become a favorite caliber of mine. For the guys with M99's Barrett has a free trigger up grade, if you dont ike the one you have. This one breaks at about 4lbs.

Pablito, we dont need to lap no stinking Badger Rings. I know you are a perfectionist but shoot before and after and tell me if you see a change. I have never lapped a set of Badgers and I keep shooting them little bitty groups. Scope getting marked, heck you are going to paint it anyway. Talking about selling the scope? Now I know you dont sell your stuff.LOL You take care my friend. I hear you are going to test one of the new Barrett scopes. I have both the Swarovski and 32mm model they make. I like both but here the new scope is going to be like the 32mm but with better clicks. Good job and let me know what you think of it.

Bill your a good man. I find it stupid anyone would carry a 1911 on the half cock position. I believe some do but damm thats not right. Put the safety on over a loaded chamber and go. An unloaded chamber is a club not a handgun. On the Glock being a worked over 1911 you left out where they gave the 1911 a bad trigger pull. MUSH MUSH MUSH.

On Data info from books. Very few have the data correct most are based on comp print outs. Some have actually gone out and tested the loads. For serious stuff you need to check the info against what your rifle does. I have gone to a system where I chronograph every rifle with the ammo I plan on using. I plug in the numbers it will be shot under and then compare against actual field testing. I see how close that is. The Sierra Program is usually fairly close unless you have an old version and you use 750 AMAX (BC is way off listed as a .1 something instead of the actual). Once I have I use the formulas for correcting for wind, temp, distance and altitude. Then I go out and build my own range cards. This takes a great deal of time but then I am not guessing. I know what will happen to the round. On the big stuff 338 Lapua and above I only know one guy that has tables that are very close, but he put the time in and you all know who I am talking about. I still use the big stuff tables to get close and then make my own range cards based on my shooting, in my weapons.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 18:38:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Wild Bill: I'm not interested in the 300 SM, but I'm not interested in the 300 WM either. The reasoning for this is easy, with the 6.5, you get better BC, better velocity, less recoil, windage, and elevation. And at least the same barrel life. Sounds like I can have my cake, and eat it too! At 142 grains, I think the on target energy has to be comparible to a 30 cal 147, and that's plenty in my mind. And I agree with you about the Glock being the "next gen" 1911. I just don't say it out loud ;-) It's EASILY my "out of the box" pick.

Ken M: please don't take this as a flame, I think you made the right statements. I just want to "strengthen" some. As someone that knows his way around propellants, explosives, and other things that can go bang, I implore you guys, don't play with this stuff. There's folks out there that are missing body parts, and they're trained professionals. There's a reason I have a lexan shield, cookbook instructions can't be trusted! Reactions run away, and the ONLY thing you can do is duck and cover. Literally. And look out for the ether, if it's not stabilized, and it sits there too long, it'll make some explosive organics and BOOM! when you touch it. If anyone could whip up something nasty, it would be me, and I don't. FOR A REASON!! But then again, I've got all my fingers, eyes, and "ornaments".
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 18:45:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Matt
Matt <Matt_l16630@yahoo.com>
Cresson, Pa, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 19:03:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.252.45.21)

Thanks for the shotgun feedback. Believe it or not, I haven't been lurking here in a while so I missed the tactical shotgun discussion. I wondered why that post didn't take off....Anyway, I just read the archive and it looks like it's the 11-87P for me. I WAS considering the Benelli..... Thanks for the feedback.
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 19:21:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

Or after your shot at 600m or more. Make it so that they can see you and come after you into a mine of booby trap field.

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 19:52:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

Shooting moving targets is not easy.
We've practiced at 200 yards with the usual IPSC on a stick and we're getting pretty good but when you reduce that target to 10" wide and vary the speeds it turns into a game of chance.

Are there any tips out there for shooting moving targets?
How do you gage the speed?

ps. The 65 yard "sprinter" at SMTC doesn't count.
That's like shooting skeet.

Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 20:44:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

While he was in The Navy, one of my brothers took some tac training from The Marine Training Unit. This was pre-Berretta and the Brass made them carry their Government Models in a flapped holster in condition three. Those guys could present thier weapons surprisingly fast. Not IPSC fast, but a lot quicker than I expected. Something like that presentation would work at night.

Nobody jump on this. It is just a little 'handy-homemaking-hint'. Someone may be able to use it in the field.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 21:00:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.110)

Bad mojo.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 22:17:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.95)

Yep, I have the scope allignment tool. I have all of those goodies. Unfortunately, I also bought two piece bases trying to save a little money. I don't know about one-piece bases but I will gay-ran-tee you that you will not line up the rings with two piece bases! Hence, you must lap. JFMI, where do you guys live that get all of this rust on your weapons? Sheeesshh, guess I need to pull all of my scopes and see if the rust monster has visted me also! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!! Took all friggin day to get just one system set up and shooting well and if it rusts well I reckon it will just fall off and I'll start over again. The cold bluing does sound like a decent idea though.

Is the 45 thread dead yet?

For the 99% of the Rosterferians that are not infinitely familiar with chemistry, DON'T SCREW WITH CHEMICALS. I have too many hazmat problems now without having to say one of my on-line buddies blew his ass off playing with that stuff. And for you younguns in spec ops that play with meth labs, DON'T! Just back off a good ways, evac the neighbors and the pets and blow the damn thing up! Taint worth a good man or woman dying in the line of that type of duty. If nothing else you can video it, play it back and watch for the soul that is crying his eyes out or puking. He's probably the proprietor.

It's raining and nasty, the dog is wet and muddy and stinks, can't pour concrete, and I am bored. Time to learn how to field strip an AR and AK blindfolded or some silly shit like that I reckon. If you guys have any rod and reels to fix or clean, I can be had cheap right now cause nobody is fishing enough to tear stuff up. Side business is slow and the baby needs diapers (20 years old and still acts like a baby).

Weather depressed Bolt, out!
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 22:24:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.129)

Kevin (Snowcat)- the LE 6920 is marked on the left side of the magazine well
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 23:14:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.186)

Once again Kevin...
The left side of the magazine well is marked "Colts LAw Enforcement Carbine " with a serial # starting with LE under it.
The right side has the words " For Military/Law Enforcement/Export Use only".

I gather the word "export " has you interested. I am going to Colt tomorrow morning so if you need and info/etc I can get it from the "Horse's" mouth.

Extra points for the bad pun....

Mike T
 

Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 23:17:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.186)

I'm probably heading to Minneapolis next week, not by choice. Any good beer joints you guys can recommend?

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Thursday, January 18, 2001 at 23:26:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.1)

LeMay, the US is phasing out all AP mines that are not self-disabling such as the M14, the M16A2, the M26, and the M25(not fielded, but in the books IIRC) What I might try to get ahold of is some of the PDM's(Persuit Deterant Munitions) that the SOCOM bubbas use. It's basically a FASCAM wedge from a 155mm arty shell with a grenade spoon on it. You get something like 10 seconds and then it deploys it's little trip wire thingies and goes boom when disturbed. Me, if the threat is high, I might put a WP grenade with a 45(or whatever) minute time pencil in my FFP(or maybe somewhere else as a decoy/deception) after I leave and maybe have CAS hit it, or use it to adjust from if need be. There's lots of things you could do. I generally wouldn't advise leaving 'dumb' booby traps and mines about, especially if friendlies might go through the area. Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 00:05:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)

HA! (as Pat would say)... can you spell "RAMAGEN BRIDGE"... 1,000 pounds of high velocity (TNT-RDX-gelatin-gelignite-etc) would have taken it down, where 7,000 pounds of nipolit left it standing... so much for nipolit :(((

Doug...
The detachable magazine guns have been discontinued... if you find one in a store... PASS!
The recoil will be the same... a lot!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 00:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.87)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 02:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.178)

Georgia Precision <tomhaskins@georgiaprecision.com>
Forsyth, GA, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 04:10:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.91.94)

TIA
Eric
Eric <ar15forme@hotmail.com>
WA, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 05:41:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.30.126.64)

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It seems that the lead for a target traveling at a given speed seems to be constant across the course.

Example: 2.5 mph = 2 mils @100 yds
2 mils @200 yds
2 mils @300 yds
2 mils @400 yds etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The critical element seems to be gaging target speed.

"I vant a rifle in the 40 vatt range."
No more math, just point and click.

Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 12:25:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

If lapping bothers you because it removes the finish, then maybe it can be parkerised.

I don't claim to be a pro at the shooting / fieldcraft skills, I very much admire the knowledge expressed on this board. But I have been in the manufacturing / engineering business for 12+ years and know a thing or two about manufacturing.

Thanks, BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.con>
USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 14:38:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.23.180.130)

BTW...In my youth it was drilled into everyone that 'dry-firing' was bad for a gun. When I started Highpower shooting it was a rather startling thing to learn that dry-firing is not only acceptable, but a mandatory task to learn to shoot better. Has anyone ever had the experience of damaging a Remington by dry firing, or on a gun that had been dry-fired extensively?

Thanks, BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 15:11:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.23.180.130)

I have dry fired 700s innumerable times. It hasn't affected the function yet. Dry firing Rugers (I don't want to hear it) doesn't seem to bother them either. If you flick your bolt after each shot, you want to be sure your action is lubed. That's especially true with stainless steel. I have a Ruger (see above) that galled and is hard to work. Its too early to tell about my Winchester, but I have no reason to think the lesser (!!!) rifles are more durable.

Conventional wisdom is that .22s and shotguns shouldn't be dry fired. For .22s, use spent cases and rotate them after every couple of shots. The dummy shotgun shells on the market have problems. The rims on the plastic ones give out after several hundred uses. The brass ones are hilariously high-priced. The solution is to get a reloader to make some dummys and pour permatex in the primer pocket. When the permatex dies, dig it out and pour in some more.

Speaking of which: Does someone out there reload 12 gauge? My dummies are dead and I need another twenty or so.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 15:32:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.30)

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 19:32:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

LeMay wrote,"the target could call in Arty or an air strike."

In my day if I were to call a fire mission or request an air strike on a single sniper I'd have been laughed off the Net.

Might we face an enemy that would put steel on target for one sniper?Maybe but I doubt it.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 19:53:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

My name is Andrew Stryker and I have lurked at SC for about 1 and a half years now. I know more about politics and religion than rifles and shooting so I post on Bravo's PatriotsUSA site. Any how I just thought it was time I made my presence known. I have learned a great deal from reading the regular posters on this site. I hope someday to meet many of you at "The Mountain" or perhaps Mike and James class in NM. Or some other place. If any of you LE types are going to be at ASLET Conf in Orlando I would be honoured to shake your hand if you come by. (I'm a vender there not in LE myself at the moment.)

Again I just wanted to say thanks to the knowledgeable people who post on this site for passing on that information. Just for knowledge sake I own a Rem 700 VSSF with a McMillan LOD stock. I won't mention the scope it will be the first thing to be upgraded.

Andrew
Andrew Stryker <strykforce@riflemen.net>
Waco, TX, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 20:18:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.104.24.242)

On movers, the lead is dependent on the range and target speed in relationship to the time of flight and reaction time of the shooter, not to mention a small dose of coordination. A 2 mil lead that you showed was way to much for the ranges you stated. There are several variables but there are “start point leads” that will get you in the ballpark. When shooting movers always go by the leading edge. If you shoot the middle of the target you will look at the target and always be late on the trigger. Under the scenario that you showed the lead would be closer to 100 – Leading edge to .5 mil; 200 - 1 mil; 300 – 1 mil; 400 – 1.25 mil. Contact me if you want the complete leads we use as the start point lead. These leads will get you close, but do not take into account the individuals ability and reaction time.

Ken – Just as any other unit that wants high speed, the Marine Corps has gone real heavy to have the very best. The problem was well stated by Land when he said they are designing the weapon around 10% of the missions. Actually my estimate would be less then that. As he stated those ranges in a field environment are very difficult and go at a 50-50 chance and in many instances even less. WE also fight this problem when they design one piece of equipment to do the very best in a 1% of the time situation. It is now a very heavy piece of junk that will not do what is necessary when it is necessary. Opps going off again on the pinheads in development that decide they know best when the grunt that has to carry it is not asked.

OK, guess I’ll quit and go silent for awhile. For what its worth, the new SOTIC manual is supposed to hit my desk in April, in disk form for a look at for errors then go to the publishers in May. If Paladin has their normal ways I would guess that the “NEW book II of the SOTIC whatever” will hit the paladin catalogue in the fall. Just a guess since I don’t know how they got the first one.

Have fun guys and Hold Hard!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 21:23:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.54)

Cheers!
Stephen Buddo <sbuddo@hotmail.com>
Blainville, Quebec, Canada - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 21:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.164.187.120)

Thanks,

Tyson

X-corpsman
Tyson <hijumpr@aol.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, January 19, 2001 at 22:46:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 143.166.99.251)

Also does anyone know if Ft Benning, GA opens it's rifle ranges to the public. I'm in disperate need if a good range to practice and practice and practice some more. I had been stationed there in the early 80's.

Does anyone know why the M70 Heavy Barrelled varmint was changed to the M70 Stealth? I'm looking at the M3LR as a scope what would be the best rings and base for the M70.

I have found a nice Desktop theme for your computer on the internet. I think some of you might like to install it. It's at www.themeworld.com/walls/index.shtml go to search and type in sniper.
It will say that it's an army sniper, but I don't think so. Does anyone recognize the rifle?

Thanks
Ted <teodoro62@juno.com>
kennesaw, Ga, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 00:25:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.118.78)

The 30/06 bolt face (.473") will work fine. It's what I used.
Remember the case is rebated, with the bolt face being .473", and the case body, at the head, being .500". We radiused my bolt slightly to allow the round to seat fully and eject properly. Works 100%.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 00:28:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.87)

David L. Henkel <dlhenkel@juno.com>
USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 00:45:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.241.202)

Because people didn't like the look of a black stock, black action, and white stainless barrel.
When they went to the black barrel, they couldn't make them fast enough.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 01:13:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.14)

LeMay wrote,"the target could call in Arty or an air strike."

In my day if I were to call a fire mission or request an air strike on a single sniper I'd have been laughed off the Net.

Might we face an enemy that would put steel on target for one sniper?Maybe but I doubt it.

Kevin, that may be, but I personally know of an instance of the Jersey firing 16" guns on a sniper south of Da Nang in mid 1969. That could ruin your day.

Pat T
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 01:34:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.28.125.36)

Eric
Eric <ethomson721@hotmail.com>
WI, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 01:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.250.163.252)

Ted: The 142 grain 6.5 cal SMK has a BC that is well beyond what one finds with the 175 or 190 30 cal SMKs. Add to that the fact I'm running 2680 fps with the 175 SMK from the M-25, and can push the 142 SMK to 2900 fps in a 260. Higher velocities are capable with the Swede. If you want to compare trajectories, you're well into (or beyond) the 300 Win Mag in comparison to the Swede. The 260 is far from a slouch as well. Don't forget the 6.5 Sir Wes though (the 6.5X284), it's even "more-er" than the Swede. I was having to push the Swede to get 2950 fps with a 24" barrel, the 6.5X284 could get that easier and better.

X-Corpsman?!? Is that a medic for the X-men? Just curious, 'cause there's no such thing as an "EX" Marine! Houah!

John: I thought that wasting money on bad smiths was part of the fun! Er, it is fun, isn't it? Here's my statement, take it for what it's worth. My money goes to Geoff Corn. He's quick, reliable, and a great guy to do business with. If you call, and he's not there, you get a return call virtually ALWAYS the SAME DAY. I've never waited over 30 days for a rifle either. Except when it was McMillans wait, not mine or Geoffs. Or when it's my fault. Let me restate, I've never waited on Geoff to do HIS part for more than 30 days. THERE! He's got the credentials too, if that's what turns you on. As for myself, I care about the results, and I'm way happy with his work. Now for the "rest of the story". I trust certain people, but I'm selective in that ;-) Because of what I've been told, I would send off something to George Gardner also! Talked with him today, and he's nothing short of a GREAT guy. I've got a rather bad feeling that he's going to eat my lunch AND drink my beer at the class in June with a (ack!) AR-10. Anyway, those two are my choices, but surely I don't know anyone and everyone!

Eric: the cheekpiece problem can be solved by McMillan. It's called the M3A. Let me know if you want the specifics, but I've had no good results with other things I've tried. That's about inclusive of everything. The strap on jobbies just plain suck regardless of make.

CDC: that's one of the main reasons I like the Glock also. I used to sleep in the bed of a pickup lots, sometimes in "uncivilized" areas. To folks who think a lanyard loop has no purpose, I suggest trying to fumble around in your bag to find the piece as a practice run ;-)

Dryfiring: shoot hi-power, you'll start dryfiring. For a long time, I shot more dry than I did live. There's a reason. At first I thought my mentor was off his nut, but when I did, my scores improved, and dramatically. On a service rifle, dryfire your hearts content.

Andrew: good to see you not in lurk mode. Actually, just glad to see you ;-)

And I hate to make this "political country", but seeing as this is something special...... With less than 17 hours left in the regime of the treasonous traitors, I find it about par to hear that clitton has just admitted to purjury, lying under oath, etc. as a way of escaping his most current special prosecutor Rea. Yes, it was a WRITTEN admission, to keep him out of court after tomorrow. So now he's been temporarily disbarred from Arkansas for 5 full years. Whoooppeeeee! Now how about serving that scum sucking lowlife sleazeball a bill for the $23 million in taxpayers money that he cost by subversion of the justice system! If there were any justice left, he would be a pauper tomorrow, but instead, he'll draw his salary for the rest of his life, and keep all the bennies (secret service) too. He should be in prison, or stand trial with subsequent execution. Anything else is unacceptable.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 02:26:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.68)

Thanks so much, keep up the great work.

Sincerely
M.F. Schantz
NREMT-P
Matt F. Schantz <Iowaparamed@aol.com>
Alburnett, Iowa, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 03:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.31)

Thanks so much, keep up the great work.

Sincerely
M.F. Schantz
NREMT-P
Matt F. Schantz <Iowaparamed@aol.com>
Alburnett, Iowa, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 03:36:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.31)

In the February 2001 issue of the NRA's "America's 1st Freedom" magazine, there is a story about California's SB23 gun law that basically turned everyone into a criminal.

And on page 29 is a great picture of "Police Sergeant Mike Miller" replete with a quote even!

Way to go Undude!

On the more serious side, it looks like the NRA may actually finally get off its collective ass and do something about this BS law.

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 03:48:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.36)

Mike Mr. Undude, have you changed your mind, thoughts on the A4 stock?
Or are you still really happy with the performance?.

Any others that are / have used the new version pls feel free to chime in.........

lito', got the answers to all the questions, but don't have the wrenches............do you want me to E M to you anyway?........

BTW, as a passing thought, today, as I was sitting at a parking light.
Across the street, was a large American Flag.........I paused, and stared, and for the first time in eight long arduous years she really, really looked GREAT again................

Much thanks,

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 03:56:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.31)

You can do it, it's one of the easiest triggers to do!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 04:26:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.14)

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 07:56:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.234.201.210)

Andrew - When is the ASLET conferance?

Breakpoint - We use the Benellis on our tac team, great shotgun! Will spit them out as fast as you can yank the trigger and will put steel on target where you aim it. Very impressed with accuracy when it comes to slugs and shot placement. Only problems I have seen is when shooting numerous shells and it gets real hot, seen a couple of jams but not too bad.

MikeL - I carry a Kimber Custom Stainless on duty, had to retire my Colt. Best pistol I have ever bought! Shoots outstanding, no jams, looks great, fits my hand well (helps that I put Hogue Grips on) and shot a 560 out of 600 on our qualification day. Usually shoot much higher but still getting used to the pistol, only had it about 3 weeks. Tried to get it to jam; weak wristed and rapid fire - spit them out like it was suppose to. I highly recommend one. I have heard of one Kimber with a the finish worn smooth off with 100,000 rounds put through it and still shoots 1.25 at 15 yards! Ain't too shabby.

Anybody own or has experience with the Robar's SR 90? When the powers that be, finally approve snipers for our team, that's what I would like to push for unless you all have something better. Let me know.

Patrick
Patrick Sloan <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, Tx, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 11:14:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.48)

Pat T Wrote,
"I personally know of an instance of the Jersey firing 16" guns on a sniper south of Da Nang in mid 1969. That could ruin your day."

Yup, that would do it. Burst radius on a 16" round should be about a grid square. I wonder how long it took from the first call for fire to the arrival of the steel.

Safety tip, with naval gunfire stay off the gun-target line. Range errors are common with those high velocity low angle pieces. If you call for fire on a sniper it would most likely be danger close so pay attention.

My Dad tells of 16" support on Guadalcanal. He claims that they would watch the projos. fly over. Each detonation would knock the wind out of your lungs.

My guess is that organic mortars would be the greatest threat to a sniper because of their availability and quick response. These days the new rounds are more lethal than ever due to more sophisticated fusing. Direct lay with one of the new 60mm holds some promise as a counter sniper technique.

Hanging around the FFP after the shot is not conducive to reaching retirement unless your forces dominate the battlefield. Even so 18" of overhead cover is recommended.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 12:45:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Robar.....quality pieces, more expensive than they should be.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 14:47:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.67)

Moe
 
 

"All they are doing is taking recreational shooters, target shooters, and making them into criminals."

"Police Sergeant Mike Miller"
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 15:09:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.22)

The Navy had a saying, "You ain't a SEAL until you've tasted Italian steel" before they put a detent in the frame and machined a slot track on the underside of the slide, just in case it fails catastrophically (compare your commercial to a military and you'll see it) and you eat it. Our first M9s were Italian, and had much nicer finishes and triggers. The SEALs dumped the M9 for the P226, and now that huge 2x4, the Mark 23.

I can shoot an M9 much faster than a 45, but I have to do a deliberate double action to single action transition -- it doesn't sound like much, but it is a deliberate, trained response to a requirement that doesn't exist with a single action.

The CZ and 226 and 228 are nice and solid, but has the same DA/SA transition requirement.

Your 45 slide may start to fail at the aft left and aft right lower corners of the ejection port somewhere between 50,000 and 75,000 to 100,000 rounds if you are firing GI IMI or Winchester Ball. Rebuild it (you can't rebuild an aluminum Beretta frame).

Glocks have inconsistent magazines that don't drop free.

Not trying to start a "Mine is better than yours" argument, just letting the buyer beware. Shoot ten thousand rounds per gun and make up your OWN mind.

Live Pursuit Deterrant Munitions have NEVER been issued for peacetime training, to the best of my knowledge -- too dangerous if it duds or has a malfuntioning fuse. There was a MILES version issued for use at JRTC. Advantage: no need to screw with timer pencils or the three safety wires on a pull fuse, just remove the safety wire, pull the grenade ring, and THROW over your shoulder (while hauling butt) to get away from it (hence Pursuit Deterrant). If you bury a toe-popper or something else you've now created an indiscriminate booby trap.

If you're protecting your OP or FFP, you can put out a "Mini-more" (A half-Claymore) with a CS or WP grenade taped to it ("Did someone call me "Sinister"?) on an avenue of approach. You should always be able to keep an eyeball on your Claymore or kill zone.

Bushmaster v. Armalite, my money goes to Bushmaster. Frank White of Florida was once quoted as saying, "If there are any Mil-spec parts in an Armalite, it's by accident." Based on the ones I've bought and seen, I'd tend to agree.

Check with Vince Greiner at FATS if your department is going to foot the bill. They had a couple of great field training systems based on the Fort Benning Malone Range Complex "Running Russians" course, hooked up to an M16A2 and M4 Carbine. Nice training aid, but expensive. Some argue better rented than bought.

Band-width hog.
Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 15:26:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.27.55)

Boys and Girls are YOU PAYING ATTENTION to Patron/Master Dave????
 

The exposed barrel on the M-9 was for "reliability" under adverse conditions. ;-)
 
 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 15:59:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 17:23:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Where can I buy (Who sells), the USMC rifle sling for their M40A1-A3 rifles. It appears to be a light brown leather sling with many holes running the length of it, with small hooks to adjust it's length.
It may be a generic military type sling in reality, I am not sure.

I am at: Wintertime@mediaone.net
 

Thanks,
Mike

Mike D. <Wintertime@mediaone.net>
Gotham City, MI, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 17:39:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.41.45.62)

Pat T Wrote,
"I personally know of an instance of the Jersey firing 16" guns on a sniper south of Da Nang in mid 1969. That could ruin your day."

Yup, that would do it. Burst radius on a 16" round should be about a grid square. I wonder how long it took from the first call for fire to the arrival of the steel.

Burst radius was somewhat less than a grid square, but you are right about anything within sniper range being a danger close fire mission. In this case a company of marines was pinned down in a paddy area SW of An Hoa by a sniper in a treeline. The company engaged with organic 60mm and picked up to move when the sniper shot a couple more marines. 105's fired a mission out of Hoi An and still failed to get the guy. The Jersey just happened to be transiting the area at the time and was monitoring the net, so they offered a little naval gunfire support.

For what it's worth, I was told by a gunner's mate off the Jersey that she could put a 16" round withind 100 meters of a given target at max range, but the pucker factor is still there when you are anywhere close to the target.

I can't swear to the truth of the following, but was told by a friend that his unit found what appeared to be a tunnel in the side of a hill and sent in a tunnel rat who found an unexploded 16" round at the bottom. That could make you nervous too.
Pat T
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 18:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.108.18)

Moe and Patron UnDude: dead on right. Virtually *ALL* laws passed at this point in time are for the expressed reason of creating criminals. After all, we have to have *SOMEONE* to hate, right? Of course, I could go into the constitutionality of having a law that doesn't require 1 the violation of someones civil rights 2 death or injury to a person 3 damage or destruction of property, but that would bring up too much ;-)

Patron Dave: *THANK YOU* for that! It's been my experience that I don't do well with DA autos, so I've divested myself of them. Including my Sigs. If I can't carry it cocked and locked (or half cocked and Glocked) I don't have it as an auto now! That's why I liked my old Beretta, I could (and did) carry it cocked and locked. The CZ is the same way, besides, the trigger reach is a strech for me in DA. At this time, I've written off the Beretta and Taurus. I'm down to the Glock, Browning HiPower, and the CZ-75. Unfortunately, I don't think there will be any good way for me to get around dropping 50K rounds through each to make up my mind. Unless someone has some great FIRST HAND stuff on them like you do with the Beretta! I took it out of my gear, unloaded it, and put it in the safe. Now the CZ is in my gear. As for being a bandwidth hog, you, like Master Rick, don't have that as a physical capacity.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the real bandwidth hog, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 18:59:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.81)

Correct me if I'm wrong But A 16" air burst round would kill or
wound in an open area about 100yds x 100yds.
The last I recall a standard grid square is 1000 meters x 1000 meters.
But anyway the 16" gun is impressive!

Hondo

Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 20:40:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.86.249.133)

I was fortunate enough to win a trip to Hawaii last Summer, and I paid a visit to the Arizona Memorial and the USS Missouri. God, what a sight those 16" guns and shells were. If I remeber correctly, the tour guide said the standard HE shell weighed 1,700 lbs. while the AP version weighed in at around 2,100 lbs.

I've got some great pictures, including one from the bridge, looking out over the front of the ship, while seeing nothing but guns.

Like the Peanuts character Snoopy says, "Happiness is a warm gun."
 

You guys still gabbin' about pistols? I haven't visited this site for almost a week and still see this grand debate raging on.

Bye for now...
 

Jeff Babineau <sales@targetshootingsupplies.com>
Canada - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 21:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.108.119)

With Armalite the two places I take issue are with the carbine non-standard gas port position and the funky handguards that neccesitates using, and the barrels not being chrome lined on some models, they say that they have a Chrome barrel but it's unsure to whether that is chromemoly or chrome lined. A definite plus in my book with Armalite though is the lifetim warranty, I've had to have things replaced and Armalite typically is on top of it with no hassels.

Bushmaster is a nice brand as well, a bit more budget minded and no lifetime warranty. Bushmaster also had a streak there for awhile where some nut/s in the assebly line were over torquing the barrel nuts and the uppers came out so that needed excessive windage to zero the weapon, in some cases REALLY excessive. Bushmaster has got all the standarized parts though. I also hear that if you are going the Class III route and putting a DIAS into an AR15 than the Bushmasters are the ones to use and don't need to be milled out.
 

Just my .02 cents.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 21:44:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

The guy on the Tee-Vee said they are already taking up the carpets, and painting in the White House... I hope the clean up crew brings lotsa Lysol :((

Welcome to the begining of the next 8 years :)))

Pat T...
That 100 yds at max range, is very optimistic... that would be something like 2/3 moa at 25 miles :((.
I read the zone once, and it's a large rectangle, something like 1/4 mile wide, and 1/2 mile long... remember, at 25 miles, you have ALL the bad stuff we argue about... windage, dredded spin drift, and Co-coo-lorious effect... and the one ton shell is dropping at a 50 degree angle.

I would think that a 1000 pounds of TNT inside a 1000 pound hardened steel casing would be lethel at a hell of a lot more than a 100yds.
Just the concussion, without the shrapnel, would kill you.
Look at the damage that "Daisy Cutters" caused... stripping trees off at the base at 300 to 500yds, and they had no steel casings, and wasn't TNT... just low order poopie.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 22:00:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.137)

I have been away from the Roster a while because my father was very ill. He has left us tonight for his big final journey. I will back on board when find the time.

Torsten
 
 

Torsten <torsten@lasercon.de>
Germany - Saturday, January 20, 2001 at 22:12:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.28)

Scope rings look like Badgers but the side bolt looks to be way undersize.. Like 1/4 inch in size.

The article claims that all will be suppressed (that is why they are 17 lbs)

The one in the picture shows a Harris non swivel bipod on the A4 stock. I hate the A4 stock. I reminds me of a fence post.

I think the M40A1 is about the best sniper rifle ever made. I think it will be missed.
 

Allan <Falshooter42@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 00:10:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.130.4.100)

EX-148 16/13 inch sabot projectile
1384 lbs
Max range 35-40 miles
High explosive loading w/electric time fuse for air burst effect.
Kill Radius in a open area 100yds x100yds

Hate to be on the receiveing end on that bad Larry!!!

Hondo
Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 00:51:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.86.249.18)

Now if you want fun, lay several layers of det cord in the bottom of an ammo can and lay CS powder on top. Tap the clays into the det cord, one each end, and lay the clays to point out and away from each end of the ammo can. When your patrol walks into the kill zone you have an instant POW snatch. The rest of the patrol is dog meat and the “victum” has zero desire to run. Of course the aircrews get the butt when you show up with a “powder donut” like that.

16” guns – Afraid the radius is just a “tad” bit larger than 100 yards. Would not want to be within 100 yards of a 155 round let alone a 16” Naval round.

Lito – Which Daisy Cutters do you prefer, the big 20,000 pounds, or little 10,000 pounds? During Desert Storm the Air Force dropped leaflets that stated that a real “big bomb” was going to be dropped and to get out of the area. About three days of this and then they did drop one. The next day they dropped more leaflets that stated “We Have More”.

Snipers in hiding – If the sniper has time to establish a good hide site, then he can be a bear to find and neutralize. Indirect fire would require a direct hit or a really big round with a delay fuse to cave in the hide. Shooting then going quiet will cause the enemy to hunt and then “assume” that the sniper has moved out of the area. This permits him to stay quiet until that group moves on. He may leave or again make contact against the unit after they have moved out of their organic small arms range. This is especially effective when the sniper places a natural obstacle, such as a river, stream, gorge, or the likes to impede movement. This is the main reason that a lot of armies do not fire and maneuver on a sniper, rather call in indirect fire and get out of the area. Once you leave that lovely hide though do not ever go back to it. Booby traps could be the present left behind.

Mike D. – The sling you are talking about are sold just about in any rifle catalogue as well as any surplus store. They sell for anywhere form 6.50 to a ripoff price of 23.50 or more. And what does MRT stand for guys?

Enough babbling for the night, Hold Hard guys and enjoy a new era with out the “big nosed back country crook” in charge.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 01:07:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.71)

P.S. Just got my PSS back from Hart Bros. in Nescopeck,PA. They did an awesome job (standard accuracy package). Lapped rings, barrel, lugs, touched up crown, tuned trigger to 2.5 lbs, skim bed for $175.00. Awesome! Wouldn't have known about them if not fer you guys. My sincerest thanks!
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 01:11:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.23)

Torsten-my condolences about your father. Take care of your new little one and tell him about grandpa.
Mike T <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 01:37:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.203)

The difference in a drop free Glook mag and a non drop free is easily established.
Look at the back of the mag, and at the top, if it has a rounded cutout, it's a non drop free.
If it's square it's a drop free.
Also,the drop frees come with a steel liner, to keep the mag from flexing, and staying loose in the mag well.
The non drop free models, are usually preferred, by LE and American sport shooters.
The non drop free, are in my opinion a better idea.
They were designed this way, to keep troops, and whomever from losing the mags in the heat of a fracas.
Thus, the two thumb notches on each side for quick removal......and retainage of same.

Two Shoes

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 01:42:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.196)

chris
Chris <chris_t12@hotmail.com>
Kent, wa, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 01:46:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.254.128)

Last I remember, from my Navy tour on the gun line, the New Jersey figured a maximum of 4 rounds of 16" to nuetralize a grid square. Must be pretty close...

We worked some areas a few weeks after the NJ had been there and it was AWFULLY QUIET...

Wes
Maj.,(2502/1302)USMC(Ret.)
EM2(DV)USN

P.S. No jokes please. I went to a service that fit my personality better...and had adult leadership...
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 02:15:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.169)

We made sure the only WP we had was taped to the mini-more (less chance of a knucklehead trying to throw one if you had the Claymore and all that wire wrapped around it). Better to have that wire standoff, and a tree between you and it.

OK, hogs, your extra credit question for the week:

You are on a (small) ship (or at a small pistol range), and you are allowed to check zero on your 700/Leupold sniper rifle, say on the chopper pad. You can get a measured 25 yards.

Where do you set the scope for? Where should your bullets hit?

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 02:55:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.27.55)

Dave - Hint on your question - I take old M14 zero targets with me. Not perfect but they will make anyone wish they had not come into line of sight. Worse case on the WP was a jerk that straightened a pin and got an initiation in his ruck as he packed it. Didn't quite make it to the door with it when it blew. He lived for 3 days, asking all to kill him.

Guess I lied when I said I was through for the night. :-)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 03:09:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.58)

Battleships: Did my 1st four as a Navy AT with a squadron on the Enterprise in 89-90. PACEX 89 had both the MO and NJ with the battle group. They were trying to impress the allies of "our" firepower. I was on the roundown of the E when both of the old battlewagons did a FULL broadside! Gentlemen and Jen, I will NEVER forget that as long as I live! Sucked the air right out of my lungs! Snapped a beautimous picture with the muzzle flash and smoke. " I love the smell of cordite in the morning!"

How much for an Undude sling anyway?

Bush in the White House! OH HAPPY DAY !!!!!!!!!!
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
Shellback, Soldier, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 03:22:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.45.77.175)

This is all in reference to the A-4. Taking the posting advice and getting what is best.

Thanks.
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 03:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.45.77.175)

Sorry, goofed, meant to say, DROP FREE preferred by LE / civie's........my brain is just not working........DOH!!!!!!!!!

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 04:04:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.179)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 04:11:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.110)

Torsten,

Our Condolences on your loss. We will keep you and your family in our prayers.
 
 

The Sniper Country Staff
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 04:12:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.52)

I'm pretty sure that the 10 & 20,000 LB Daisy Cutters and the Heavy Hitters used in Desert Storm are two different animals.

The Daisy Cutters were fused to impact at or very close to the ground primarily to level trees to make a "field expedient" LZ. (from a 60's Army FM, I will try and find it if anyone cares)
There was a pick of one of these carried underneath the big heavy lift helo (not the 46 or 53 the HEAVY lift bug looking one). It was filled with Composition B or some other solid explosive if memory serves.

The ones dropped in Desert Storm were BLU-82's and are FAE's or Fuel Air Explosives. Take your medium 20,000 gal propane tank, strap a small stabilizing chute to one end, put small charges along one side to rupture it and white phosphorus charges to ignite the vapors. These things were mean to rupture and spread a layer of fuel to mix with the air a few hundred feet above the ground then the WP ignites the whole mess. Boom, a huge hot blast that is mostly kills and damages by large over pressure. Anyone ever heard of a BLEVE? (any firefighters out there?) I only know about these because a classmate of mine was a crewmember on an aircraft that dropped one of these things. He's got a neat picture of him sitting on top of this in the cargo bay of the plane he was a crew chief on.

So 55B is one of my MOS's? I'm easily interested in ordanance...

Whatever...

Back to your regular program...
CRC <dakotaaviator@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 04:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.129.136.192)

So everyone's down on Willy Pete ;-) Next thing you know, I'll be told that my thermite is a bad way to go. What? You don't want to trigger it with a lighter and magnesium ribbon? HA! When it comes to grenades, I much prefer the self propelled kind. Now if they were lighter.....

Chris: SKS's can be made into a moderately accurate battle rifle, but it will do some looking for parts. First thing you'll need is a FN-49 barrel. Then a FN-49 stock and action to go with it. Seriously, it's the "Rolls" of the SKS's, and in a battle rifle caliber to boot!

Master Rick: your powdered doughnut idea is M-E-A-N. I hate that stuff personally. When we went into the funhouse not that long ago, some stuff was definately stirred. People started filing out with MILD symptoms, and told me that the tac-teams had been using CS in there. When I came out, I explained that I had absolutely NO idea what that stuff was, but it WAS NOT!! CS. Whatever it was, I'd rather take it than the CS anytime. Dunno what the SWAT cops use, but they ought to look into CS.

Friend Torsten: you have my most sincere condolences. You and your family have my prayers and best wishes. And my best to your lovely kiddo too.

Wild Bill: it's up to you which ones you love the best, the drop frees or nons. Mine all have that little metal showing semi-circle cut in the back, except for the bill clintoon specials. You know, 2/3 capacity for the half-wit. My point was that *ANY* of them will drop free, once they're empty ;-) Dunno about you, but other than when I'm mandated to, I don't want to change mags before they're empty. Sure, situations could change that, but then I wouldn't be in that all fired hurry! HA! Maybe I'll learn the proper way of holding two in my hand at once.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with a new top banana, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 05:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)

You said that the US Armed Forces would NOT send arttillery to kill ONE sniper. That is probably true, but as far as I know no US General or any other hot shot has been shot by enemy snipers in the last 50 years. If they were, you would use direct air support to kill snipers and not just arty.

What we get from Chechneya (in Finnish its Tsetshenia so my spelling might be off alittle bit) the Russians used after the first backlashes arty to annihilate any AND all perceived threats and potential places of snipers or any other soldiers. The basic maneuver was to move the arty fire zone in front of the troops as they advanced. And this went for tens of miles. Because they did not fear to be overrun by superior strengt troops they could waste arty ammunitions with NO regard to the results. Own body bags are no more in vogue even in Russia. Afganistan tought the parents there too that their son might die for nothing in a faraway place. Political pressure therofore makes it easy to justify lots of arty power to be used "just in case".

So in low intensity conflicts it is entirely possible that the sniper faces both arty, tactical air support and anti-snipers. This is especially true for Russian forces. So do not believe the opponent will always act in a reasonable manner. Especially if you knock out a general or the like you WILL face all the power the opponent can put to the table.

Our doctrine here is to make the shot and then to get out of the dodge, fast. To me it seams reasonable given the Russian style to use their resources.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 05:26:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.8.138)

ARTY - well if 105mm HE is 35m KZ, 155mm has a 55m KZ (300m+DZ) I would not want to be in the same state as a 16". Rember the Soviet doctrine has 7x western arty and the BM-2x rocket launchers can really screw your day - let alone some idiot with a 82mm Mortar!
Gets us back into tgt priority - FOO party's sig etc.

Master Rick - you guys still not playing with any sound supression stuff? Looking at some night shooting w/ & w/o it really seem to have some value for Mil ops.
 
 
 
 

Kevin <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 06:07:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.67.55.54)

I am glad to say that my wife of active duty Navy, volunteered for inauguration duty. She was tasked with seating VIP's in front of the podium. She was up and out of the house for muster at 0230 and did not return until 1430. She was taped by me in formation on CBS today and our 2 year old said," there's momma." When she came home, he stated that he saw her on T.V. She is now considering re-enlisting after 7 years of active duty because of the pride and patriotism!

God Bless America!!!!
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 06:29:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.45.77.175)

Browning HP's - I KNOW that Sir Wes is still in shock after NOT receiving an incoming barrage from By-Gawd on the subject. I LOVE the HP and have been looking hard at a two-tone fixed sight version. As it was told to me, the HP was to be the sucessor to the M-1911.
Course no they make it in .40S&W so the challenge will be caliber/ or do I do slide perversion thing? hmmmmmmmmmmm?
Think the same thing about the H&K PSP (original P-7) and used to keep one around just about everywhere I went. Its probably the pentultimate steel body carry piece. Just ask anyone thats carried one.
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 13:45:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.51)

I found a few of those leaflets you mentioned in some of my gear. Found them a few days after the AF dropped a BLU-52 I think it's called. Some guy's in my unit thought a tac-nuke had been popped. Heck of a boom though. Some of the leaflets had one side printed with Iraqi dinar.

Sorry off topic, I went through all my junk that I brought back after Rick posted.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 15:27:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.115.151)

Bravo; I really don't have much opinion on drop frees etc. Till I saw em doing that IPSC stuff I never even thought about it. I figure the business is usually done by the end of the first Magazine. But never thought of tossing one into the dirt. Since then I've dunked a lot of them but never really wanted too.

Pete; if there's a defect in the HP. Someone will have to tell me about it. The Cal. was my only objection. One of the great guns of all time. I'd do a .40 if I was doin it.

10 Best Handguns of all time.
nominations
Colt .45 Single Action
Colt 1911
CZ-75
German Luger
Ruger Redhawk
S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum
Walther PPK
Sig Sauer
Browning Hi Power
H&K p-7
H&K USP
S&W mod 25
S&W mod 60
Ruger Bisley
Ruger Vaquero
S&W 4506

Hope "Rifle only" men will not be offended. This is not for Sniper Carry but for reliability and utility and general use for what each is intended. Cal. is not a consideration except I didn't consider .22 cals.
There are many others? What did I forget.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 16:51:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

In the latest Rifleman on page 36, a Marine is shooting an M40A1 over his pack. On the barrel of the rifle are several rings, looks like large rubber 'O' rings. Does anyone know the purpose of the rings? Are they dealing with the harmonics of the bbl to shoot better (rolling them back and forth to find the 'sweet spot')? Are they for holding camo?

Also, what do people think of the Marines camo job? Does it perform well under field conditions when spotters are looking for you? Are the -A3's going to be painted?

I am going to give my rifle a paint job when I have some faith that it will do some good, not just make it look cool!

Thanks, BS.
Bravo Sierra <bravosierra100@hotmail.com>
TN, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 16:57:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.79.53.41)

Patrick: less than an hour north on 6, talk to Rudders Rangers. There's your M-14's. And your solution to violent felons. But while you're there, remind them that they're still harassed by me personally ;-)

Adam: don't forget the Wichita sling swivels. If they don't put those in at the factory, it's MUCH more work later on. Seems they make the stock around steel plates to thread them into. You don't ask, you don't have the steel plates to thread something into later on.

Kevin of the North: now you know why I feel like such a schmuck for selling off the HP. I took an "experts" word that my NATO spec (granted, it's a FULL NATO spec, not wimpy like issue ammo) ammo would batter and destroy that pistol. Now I need another one. BAH! Of course choosing between it, the CZ-75, and the Glock is going to be H-A-R-D. And I know what you mean on your 10 round mag conversions. Sounded more to me like a "non-functioning" mag conversion. But seeing as it's not my country, I'm not calling for hangings there. You can do that ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the great, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 17:12:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.125)

And I'm now taking requests for what kind of beer the class in June would prefer. Mix and match, all fine by me. But no hefeweizen. I don't bring anything that I wouldn't give better than a "C", and my hefeweizen is still a C at best. Got a good "close to Guiness" though.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
MILITIA MILITIA MILITIA, there, I said it!, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 18:01:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.125)

If you zero your rifle to hit dead center at 25 yards (aiming at a vey small dot) your rifle will also be zerord at +/- 200 yards. This zero varies slightly depending on how high the scope is mounted.

With an AR-15/M-16, high handle mounted scope: Zero dead on at 50 yards and you'll be close to dead on at 200 yards.

ONE SHOT ZERO: No one asked about this, but I'll describe it anyway because it's a really great way to quickly zero a weapon, either due to field expediency conditions (BG's are somewhere nearby, you've bumped your scope, and you don't want to give away your position any more than necessary, or you are swapping or testing scopes and want to check out a new scope without wasting lots of zero ammo). The results aren't perfect, but with this zero I've always been on an 8" paper plate at 200 yards.

One shot zero: (1) Bore sight your weapon aiming at a small target (tree top, rock, etc) out at 200 yards or so. (2) From a solid rest fire one shot aiming dead center at a very small dot centered on a sheet of paper set up at 25 yards. (3) Brace your weapon solidly with sandbags, rocks padded with jacket, etc., so it can't move. (4) Aim again dead ceter at the original aiming dot. Make sure your rifle can't move. Using your windage and elevation knobs only, move the cross hair off the aiming dot and center it dead center on the bullet hole you already fired. (5) You are now zeroed for +/- 200 yards.

Bear in mind that this type of quick, expedient zero doesn't substitute for a more precise actual 200 yard zero, but it is fast (2-3 minutes) requires only one shot, and is accurate enough to put you on an 8" paper plate at 200 yards.
 

Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 18:35:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.78)

Just noticed that Savage is making the 10FP in .260...Hmmmmm

While everybody is asking about that M40A3 what about that front ring with the platform/mount on top.What gives.I read that 17.14lbs to be without the can.Sounds like Ol'Ken advised on this project.
BruceE <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 18:52:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.181)

D.S.
Dan Sledzinski <climber311@coolmail.zzn.com>
Aztec, NM, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 19:13:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.161.41.79)

Speaking as a former Army vet, and former big city cop who has made 300-400 felony arrests, and who now lives in small town USA, I'll try to explain.

Citizen soldiers are not the same thing as citizen cops. I don't see why citizens couldn't perform military type duties in an emergency, especially since there are a lot of experienced military vets out there. However, police work is a different story. Police work requires a lot of sophisticated training and experience in WHEN NOT TO SHOOT, and what NOT to do, that average citizens just haven't had. We used to say it took 5 years of STREET EXPERIENCE before a cop could be considered a professional. I still feel that way.

Brovo is correct in that "real" cops have a negative view of "pretend cops". So do I. In fact, the allegedly "trained" small town cops where I live now are nothing to brag about, and are way less experienced and less trained than big city "combat zone" cops are. Why? Because there just isn't any crime here, compared to where I worked, so the cops here haven't had much, if any, "combat" experience. If these "trained" cops can't be relied on to do their jobs right, what about "farmer John" and his kids, or the local hardware store guy, or worse yet the local boozer?

For example, a few years ago a local cop with 13 years street experience swapped jobs with an LA cop for a few weeks. The result? In a newpaper interview when he got back he stated that he had drawn his pistol on BG's more times in his first week in LA, than in 13 years here! Big difference!

Citizen soldiers, Yes. Citizen cops, no! At least not in my experienced opinion.
 
 
 

Flash <Skalkaho_Flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 19:16:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.30.78)

The piece you are talking about on the M40A3 is an interface for a Simrad KM200 or KM250 Night Vision unit. These units mount by sliding over the objective of the scope with a "scope specific" nylon adapter sleeve. Continue to move the unit back until the main unit housing slides and clicks onto the cleated dovetail foot you see in the picture. The units are European (Swedish maybe?)but are now being serviced and assembled in-country.

The units are fairly heavy and have a high center of gravity. Because they only have two anchor points (the cleat and the scope's objective) the mounting cleat alters the front ring to allow double the bearing surface against the scope tube.

The cleated interfaces are available for 1" and 30MM scope tubes but have to be ordered specific to your ring's screw pattern. My shop builds and sets up rifles for this system so I am familiar with the mounts and units. Several Federal, State and large Metro City agencies have been using these units for several years.

These units are extremely well made but: (1) Are top heavy and large. (2)99% of them require a different zero on your scope. (3) Have the drawback of your scope magnifying the image AFTER the image is enhanced, thus magnifying any grain or flaws in the image.

Even with these complaints, I would not want to be in one's field of view even on the darkest night. Hope this explains what you were asking about. Everybody stay safe.

Terry
Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 19:58:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.47)

The Marines have gone farther towards the heavy side, but the Ops, Inc. suppressors by Phil Seebarger in California are nice. Like the M4s, you take a 7 pound weapon and start adding 25 pounds of accessories.

It made me proud yesterday to see all the kids in uniform. All the pageantry of the military, from the Old Guard 21-gun salute to "Ruffles and Flourishes" and "Hail to the Chief" by all the military bands.

Even "Special Air Mission 98000" looked better taking away the other guy.

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 20:16:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.18.66)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 20:44:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.203)

You forgot the German P-38
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 20:45:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.76.211)

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 20:46:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.203)

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/surveillance/simrad/simrad4.html
 

JerryC <Jsf1999@aol.com>
Cypress, TX, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 21:17:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.34)

I saw fuel/air bombs used in VN by 1 SOS (carried under the wings of
Spads). They were white in color with an "ice cream cone" looking
nose and stubby fins on the back. AF's name for them was PAVE PAT.
VERY impressive KB for their size!

It was the Sikorsky CH-54 'Skycrane' that was used to drop the 10K lb.
'daisy cutter' LZ clearing bombs. I remember watching the armorers
loading one that had Excedrin Headache painted on its side. I think
that all of the 20K lb. daisycutters were put on skids and dropped
off the (open) ramps of c-130's, the loadmaster cutting it loose and
the pilot just pulling up the nose. That's the way I remember it, and
I'll stick to the story:-)

Rumor fram the Shot Show...... the P35 (Hi-Power) will again be available from Browning some time this year. I have no other details.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 22:11:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.89)

How could you leave off the big "N" frame S&W M27... THE classic big magnum pistol for some 40+ years... it's been in more jungles than most others combined.
The "Vaquaro"??? WTF??... OK, if you say so ;((

Bravo sierra...
I don't know why the rings are on the barrels, but they have nothing to do with tuning the rifle.

Bravo (the plain ol' one!)...
The BHP will eat anything you can buy... including german subgun ammo.
I've had my first one for 35 years, and it's as tight as a tick's ass.
The two "GP's" need hot ammo, and are marginal on plain ol' USA Factory.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 22:41:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.79)

Bill: I'll second Pablo's motion and move we substitute the S&W 686 for the Ruger Bisley. Slick it up first.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 23:41:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.53)

17 left. Which ones should go or be added. Consensus time.
HERE'S HOW IT WORKS - SEE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE SAY "TAKE IT OFF"
WANT A NEW ADDITION - SAY "PUT IT ON!"
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, January 21, 2001 at 23:59:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

• Back to Archives