January 02, 2001 - January 08, 2001
Time for me to come clean with you all and bare my soul...
Here goes: Can't remember when I've enjoyed a group of like minded individuals more. You all contribute, cajole, pose questions, and stretch the limits of what we know and do...
Congratulations to you all!
Now, I'll put my "sensitive side" away. With luck, you'll never see it again.
Bino's...can't vouch for a lot of brands. I have a set of Bushnell
Rubber Armored compacts in 10x25 and a set of Nikon's lightweights in 6x30.
Both are useful, but not what I really want.
The USMC had/has armored binocs with mil radians in them for artillery
spotting, etc. Optics are pretty good, but not top notch. Believe they
were 10x50's and made in Japan, but I can't remember the maker. It wasn't
Nikon. Somebody want to fill in the missing info...it's 2001 and I've been
afflicted with CRS(can't remember shit).
Best Bino's. One of my neighbors has two sets of Zeiss be 10. One is a 10x50 and the others 7xsomething. The optics are incredible! Colors are true, but where they REALLY perform is the ability to distinguish targets from background. Especially during dim light conditions. Should I ever get rich, or sell of excess inventory in the armory I'd look REAL HARD at Zeiss. For now I'll live with what I've got. Buy the way, be prepared for sticker shock!
Would like to see the IOR line. Aren't these "East German" manufacture?
Bravo, you order the Varget yet?
Pete, we being a little rough on the lad? After all, he is ONLY a "gas gunner" and allowances must be made!
Semper Fi,
Wes
The sensitive...Obviously been working at Hewlett-Packard to long.
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 00:31:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.249.5)
Thanx in advance Duster
PS: the Steyr SSG Style bolt knobs by George Gardner are the cat's
ass!
Duster <mcgrath@tc3net.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 00:53:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.91.142.136)
Save the extra money and spend it on ammo! The AICS stock is interesting,
but noisy and awkward for me. Read the review of this stock in the "Review"
section. One of the Kevins wrote his perspective on it. Just my two cents,
but I just prefer the McMillian. I have 5 of them!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:08:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
Sta, ugh - I mean BRAVO, can take it. I just tease him a little cuz he is more stubboner than most. You have made great inroads with him and conversion to - GASP - a manual turn bolt action.
Varget & Kimbers and Bolt Guns Oh MY!
Varget & Kimbers and Bolt Guns Oh MY!
Varget & Kimbers and Bolt Guns Oh MY!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:16:15 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.187)
"To show what perfection has been attained, it will suffice to instance highest possible scores - all bullets striking a 36-inch bull's-eye at 1000 yards - Mr. Gibb's record of 37 successive bull's-eyes at this range, and the late Sir Henry Halford's 18 out of 20 shots into a 12-foot by 9-foot target at 2000 yards. Such shooting represents what the best match, or long-range target, rifle is capable of accomplishing. It is a magnificent result, and the more one knows of rifles and ammunition and the way in which motion is imparted to the projectile, the more astonishing does such accuracy appear." page 97.
Later he says of Mr. Gibb's: "The best authenticated score, though not made in competition, is that of Captain Gibbs, who, in fifty consecutive shots at 1000 yards, scored 248 out of a possible 250, including one series of 37 consecutive bull's-eyes." page 120
The book is published by Wolfe Publishing, ISBN 1-879356-40-6
Original publication was in 1900.
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:40:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.252.230)
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:45:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.84.252.230)
PeteR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever LOL. Hey, I might be stubborn,
but you'd be surprised about the first hand info I can give out on what
DOES NOT work! HA! Hey, even a broken watch is right twice a day!
Bravo - Patriots
USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, supplying free school lunches to the globe, USA
- Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.235)
PS- I still like my Steiners..........
Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 02:02:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.238.112.27)
Bravo, I hear you on the "recover" from the Holidays thing. I'm in the same mode. Probably be March or April when I get ahead enough to buy in bulk. Until then I have enough powder to keep me going. Still have 8lbs. of 2520 I can always fall back to...ptuii!
Pete, OK, Bravo "can take it". Still he is making great progress from his "gas gun" impairment. Some serious therapy, counseling, and hands on time should convert the heathen. I've tried to answer his questions honestly and help him through the process. He's almost there...with some luck and training we may even get him out of the "spotter mindset" and into the "shooter" one.
Kimbers...? Great guns. More importantly, they've force other manufacturers to follow suit.
Still, I'll stick with my custom Stainless Commander and Les Baer
guns. The G36 for my deep conealment piece.
In 9mm, it's my Cylinder and Slide Hi-Power and in .40 my Glock
23. Ain't having choices great!
Semper Fi,
Wes
The persuasive...
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 02:18:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.63)
Doug - Have never seen anything written on official sniper activity during the Spanish American War. HOWEVER, as you know the American soldier is a very resourceful individual. My bet is that there were those that brought their own equipment and used it anyway. Again have not read about it but there has been a history of soldiers doing that in all conflicts.
Jen - My vote is on the 12 x 40 loopie with mil dots, they are not cheap. They are great and go down far enough for close work and up enough for ID work. The dot spacings are equal to 1 mil through out the zoom and the glass is really good on the examples that we use. As far as scope versus binos I would go with a good scope and a cheaper pair of binos. Binos are for a quick psot then a chnage ove to scope to see what you spotted. The spotting scope will also give you your mirage read for wind and if you have an observer a trace read for correction when necessary. What binos do I use, I don't, I have a pair of Leica laser range finders that is the best glass I have ever encountered. They are not the cheap range finders but the really good ones that Uncle Sugar got me, er the military, er whatever.
Guys have fun and play nice. Porn site?
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 03:12:22 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.208.107)
Pyromaniacs get a form of sexual gratification from the fires they start. Arsonists have been known to stay within visual range of their handiwork and, er, do some handiwork on themselves while watching it burn. I guess it's cheaper than paying for late-night cable...
Roger
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Cold and getting colder in Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001
at 03:13:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.160.1.144)
Rick, could you have Drue give me a call? If he can't move that stuff among instructors or students I'll post on the "Emporium" board. It's a bunch of take-off stuff from Remingtons past: a darned near new cammy McMillan A3 with rail and 3-way butt plate; all the stuff to hang a Harris bipod; a handstop; two-piece Winchester 70 steel trigger guard and floorplate (Marine Corps style -- never tell a Marine gunsmith you want a steel trigger guard without specifying I WANT A 1-PIECE BADGER, MORON); Tubb lug; a Jewell trigger. Anyone interested?
I watched "Wallace and Gromit: A Close Shave," the clay-mation animated feature with my 4-year old. I couldn't help thinking about that photo of 'Lito and his Falklands War Bride and couldn't stop giggling. You gotta see this thing after a couple of brews.
Bravo thinking of a bolt and Mike thinking of shooting his M14? What the heck else is going to happen? Next thing you know dogs and cats will be sleeping with each other!
Jim Mitchell, how are those AR-10s coming along? Inquiring minds REALLY want to know!
As for the binos and the Zeiss comments Wes, I think you're right -- you can't hit what you can't see. Wish I was independently wealthy. My old Navy 7x50s M17A1s are nice, but HEAVY.
Three weeks to Vegas and snagging that Winchester 70 Target!
Paraphrasing James Coburn's character in "Hudson Hawk":
"God, I miss Communism." What we need is a Low Intensity Conflict
in a high per diem area.
Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 04:16:25 (ZULU)
(your host address: 66.26.26.131)
Looking to get the Sinclair B/R Rest @ $220. After that I'll get a good spotting scope.
Why do you think Plaster has the sniper rifle in his first video (I haven't seen the others) topped with a 16 power scope? Doesn't the Military use 10x as an upper limit? And Urban use would certainly not be as high as 16x either. When would a sniper use 16x with a .308?
Any thoughts on the Winchester .300 WSM in comparison to the .300 Win Mag? Think Remington will chamber the VS and PSS for it?
As I said before, I've never been in the Military, but everyone knows from watching Cowboy and Indian movies that you shoot the Chief and all the other Indians retreat! Take out officers and the guys maning the big guns first. Cut off the head, the body will lose its sense of direction.
Aaah the armchair. Makes everything so damn simple.
Doug McKay
Relaxing with a bit of Wild Turkey
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 04:48:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.252.230)
Master Rick: Houah! I sent something off tonight on the bino / spotter that I've learned, and it almost perfectly mimicked what you said. The big difference is that I've been forced to shell out the dough for my failed experiments LOL. Now, why does it always tend to go that way?
Now, would someone who's a real master on, and has worked it over
to know it well, drop me a line about the 260? Thanks!
Bravo - Patriots
USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Tuesday, January
02, 2001 at 05:07:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.169)
Anyone else thought of going? The last three days of the (two weeks for high power rifles) National Matches are the long range matches (first day is 800, 900, and 1,000 yards, typically with an iron sight rifle or service rifle; second day is with any rifle / any sight, i.e. scopes, or a service rifle [both first and second day start in the morning as individual matches and four-man teams in the afternoon]; and the Palma on the third day (any iron sight .308).
The first day is unlimited sighters at 800 yards, but you only get 30 minutes to shoot all your sighters and 20 rounds for score. And all your sighters are shot "Up front," meaning once you say, "This is mny first shot for record," they all count after that.
It's shot all in the prone, so you "Old" guys have nothing to complain about. Match rifle (as opposed to service rifle) rules say you can use mike Miller's Tac sling.
Think about it guys! If it shoots (minus the .50 cals) there's usually a factory rep or custom gunsmith there, and Commercial Row has EVERYTHING you need at near wholesale prices (you can go broke there saving money). The hot tip is to get there during "DCM" week when the merchants have all their stuff right off the truck (a lot of them pack up at the end of "NRA" week since only a few stay for the long range matches).
Just a thought. I know some guys save up that leave or vacation time for Storm Mountains September festivities.
Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 05:13:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
66.26.26.131)
Plus, I think someone told me they have coyotes there. :)
Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 05:22:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
66.26.26.131)
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 07:23:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.6.130.240)
Anybody know where I can get a CFP 90 pack that won't cost me an arm and a leg?
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 14:59:04 (ZULU)
(your host address: 165.83.118.152)
Pyromania??? Now I undertand why there's a bunch of guys in trench coats, hangin' around the Prest-o-lite display at our Home Depot ;).
I'm not sure how shooting at incendiary targets, came around to being a building burning prevert, but youse guys can have it :((
"Sinister"!!! You gotta cut me some rhythm here...
I ain't seeing the "Falklands Hunny" no more... her father said If
I "wanted any", I'd have to fix the tyres on his house first (all four
of them were flat!)... hell, she was real ugly (as in ooooogly!!), and
wasn't worth it, so I told him to call the helper at the gas station, and
have him over to fix his damn house... turns out that the gas station helper
is her brother, AND her "ex" husband... so I'm done with them ;((
And no need to worry about Bravo... he'll be a "die hard M14/M25"
guy for a LOOoooooong time!
On Mil bins...
The Tabasco 7x50 Marine bins are real nice (I wish they could do
as well on their scopes)... and when you look at them in the store, they
look real good. There's a nice compass, and a graticule, and a built-in
range finding computer on the front of the objective... looks like the
real deal... but the hash marks are in "Degrees" (like in boating), not
mils, so pass them by if you're lookin for mils (I got the tee shirt :(.
Too bad they couldn't make them in mils.
However, the Steiners (and IOR) are in MILS, so throw your money
at the Steiners or IOR's.
I have a pair of the M-22's with pink laser filters, and they are
real nice (see the world through rose colored glasses;)... and a pair of
the 15x80's with the compass and mil reticle... blindingly sharp, and about
half the weight of (and sharper than) the 15x80 Celestrons... Good bins
are worth saving your money for (but that applies to everything, including
women!!)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lookin for a new hunny, someone less "sheepish"!... in the, USA - Tuesday,
January 02, 2001 at 15:19:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.83)
Yote Bait,
A Shepard?? Really?? Been there done that. Would work great for
hunting,damn fast but only good to around 600yds with the range finding,
circles are to close in size after that. The only problem I had with them
was the damn eye relief was to short and the 300 would hit me in the nose
when I shot prone.
Dave,
You might want to give the VV-N140 a go with the 175s,it shot like
a dream with my 168s in my Hart barrled 308. I haven't tried any of the
135 yet because the Varget does so well across the board but it still won't
compare to the 4064 at 100 and 200yds.
UnDude,
You were right on the 260 but the bullet that it matches in the
300WM is the 220MK not the 190s. The 140 VLDs have the same BCs as the
220MKs and the data is identical all the way to 1000yds. The also have
more retained energy than the 308 168gr at 1000yd leaving at 2800fps. I
don't know about the 175s but would bet it would be close or maybe even
better,the 6.5s really fly!!!
Reloader series is really a good powder. I have used it in my magnums and tried it in the 6.5x284 and no other powder came close to it for velocity. The accuracy was also outstanding. It would be my second choice of a good all around powder.
Jim,
You may want to try the 140AMAXs in your rifle they shot tighter
in mine all the way to 1000yds. The 142s did better at 100 to 300 but tended
to open up a little more than the 140s did.I have found this to be true
with the 260 also. The 6.5x284 shot around .5 at 100 with the 140AMAX and
.3s with the 142s but then stayed close to the .5 MOA all the way to 1000yds
with the AMAXs.
lito'
Congrats on your engagment!!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 17:34:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
The Rem 700 BS, and the Rem 700 PSS are the same rifle, just different stocks. Go to Brownells for a new black "PSS" stock, of look on the Sniper Country "Emporium" and look for a "Take off" from somebody who's upgrading to some other stock.
Pat...
I AIN'T ENGAUGED!!!
She's a bum, and Uuuuugly too, plus she's broke, and her daddy lives
in a house with 4 flat tyres, and her brother is her "EX" husband... so
CUT ME SOME SLACK!!!
Boltster, you are in D-E-E-E-E-E-P T-R-O-U-B-L-E
'yote Bate...
You left too much space for me to tell you what I know about women...
I only need 4 spaces... NADA ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I'm gonna skulk off to my hide... I give up on women critters, in the
North East, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 17:45:42 (ZULU) (your host
address: 208.249.180.17)
1. Does anyone know the "proper" way to cut down a McBros A-4 Stock to reduce LOP an inch? I would imagine, remove the recoil pad, cut ugly black fiberglass (whateveritis) desired amount, reinstall recoil pad. However, having not fooled with their stocks before, I though I'd try some smart people, for opinions. Yes I did email McMillan, they haven't replied yet, and my band saw is running . . .
2. I have a Savage 110FP. The forend wiggles and moves, it's basicly unstable. The left side is almost touching barrel, while a larger gap exists or right side. I have heard some discussion on this problem with savages. I don't think action area is out of line. I'm thinking of inletting an aluminum I-beam or flat into the action to barrel area. Anyone ever try something like that to stabalize a stock?
Carl Marshall <cbmarshal@aol.com>
Wileford , WV, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 17:49:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.196.96.213)
Two Shoes
Still Cold in Big "D".
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 19:17:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.196.39)
What a fricking ice storm!
I sat in the living room Christmas night and listend to the trees snap off around the house. Sounded like a thunder storm. Kept on for a full day. I was out hacking on a cedar tree that was leaning on the houses power cable and all hell broke loose. Tree snapped, cable flew, what a party. Had a 10" limb let go and drop on the roof, I thought the thing was going to break through but this old house held up.
Kids got a good lesson on how lucky they are. Power went out Christmas Night and we just got it back this morning. Read my lips...
Electric heat SUCKS. Propane baby.
Anyway, my hats off to any of you jokers that are utilities guys, saved our asses. Talked to a guy yesterday from Alabama who was up here fixin lines driving a truck from a company in North Carolina.
Happy Frickin New Years!!!
Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 19:43:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
166.102.45.22)
I got my Harris S-BRM, Tanks Speedy Knobby, and Kleinendorst Bolt Disassembly and Firing Pin Tools. Now all I need now is my Un-Dude Sling, Pod-Loc, Badger Rings/Base and My Leupold Scope (Un-Dude, I'll be calling you ;).. The Bolt Disassembly tool I am sure will save me hours of swearing up a storm, pinching fingers, and having the bolt flying across the room.
Now, I have a question for you regarding Wolff Blitzschnell springs. I was told that these could help over the standard factory springs, but how so? And what load rating would work best in a PSS? Do these even make a difference?
Ok, one more question.. The Kleinendorst Firing Pin tool.. how exactly do you use it to get the spring off? Figure it's best to know what I'm going to be breaking before I break it ;) I am assuming that you screw in the firing pin assembly then crank the bolt down over the firing pin until the spring is completely compressed and you can remove the cross pin at the back of the assembly (it appears as you crank the big bolt in, compressing the spring) then uncrank the bolt and remove everything...
Love how this stuff comes with instructions.. you could really hurt yourself with that spring.. or even worse, a firing pin to the head.
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Waiting for my Leupold to arrive.., Impatient, USA - Tuesday, January
02, 2001 at 21:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.69)
After pin is out, slowly back off hex head bolt and then unscrew bolt shroud. While you have the firing pin out, polish the body (NOT THE TIP!!) with some 400 and 600 paper followed by Blue Magic or Flitz. Reduces friction and corrosion. Chamfer the ends of the cross pin so it will go back in easier. Pad your work surface with leather or you will mar the surface of your bolt shroud. (Gee Bill, how do you know that!??)
Most of us replace 24 pound factory spring with 28 pound Wolffe spring to decrease lock time. Wolffe makes a 32 pounder but its a bit rough on the cocking surfaces. I recommend that you don't mess with it until you are ready to do the job. (One time removal and replacement.)
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 22:21:03 (ZULU)
(your host address: 24.161.246.62)
Wish 'ya coulda posted that info a coupla days ago. Doh!! :-0 Just got finished whacking mine all to hell and back. (The bolt and firing pin assembly, guys!!) Oh, well, it's only a 700-ADL, it's a pig and that's what it's there for. :-)
I found that the Kleinendorst Bolt Disassembly and Firing Pin Tools don't need any external mechanical help, I did everything finger tightening without other tools, but I wasn't trying to install a stronger spring. Results may vary.
Wes Howe,
Thank you for your help and advice, it is much appreciated. You
haven't been working for HP too long, you're just a good man in a whacky
environment.
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Learning the hard way, in the, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 23:11:12
(ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)
Jen...
I'm still on hold with the people at Barrett... ;-)
Keep on Blazin,
Ben
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 23:41:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.229.166.90)
MP <fwebel@casema.net>
the Hague, NL - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 00:06:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 195.96.98.222)
Tanks
Doug
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Not at home right now, , in Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03,
2001 at 00:18:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3)
So many things to buy when getting into bolt guns! I love it.
Doug
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 00:45:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 160.94.47.3)
Jen, Forgot a few things. After you reinstall the spring and pin, the spring assembly needs to be lubricated with grease. I use Lubriplate. Slather it on the coils and then wipe it off with your fingers, leaving a fair amount inside the spring coils. You should be able to see the metal of the coils after lube job.
Then, get a stiff bottle brush and scrub the inside of the bolt out.
You will not believe the crap that comes out of it... manufacturing residue,
rust flakes, green copper chunks from brass, carbon, etc. If you can figure
out how to polish the interior of the bolt, that helps also. Brownells
actually sells a bolt brush. Rinse with paint thinner or lacquer thinner.
Be aware that these solvents remove lubrication in the metal pores so relube
afterwards. Wet with oil, let stand for a few minutes, wipe off excess.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 00:59:09 (ZULU)
(your host address: 24.161.246.62)
Cordell <cordell.45@juno.com>
Utah, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 01:28:25 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.126.160.10)
The speed knob replaces the "use a quarter" bolt that attaches the Harris bipod. I have used one for awhile now and it gets/stays pretty tight.
TR <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:15:00 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.204.207)
| Brownells
Remington 700, Harris Bipod Parts
|
||
| Part # | Description | Price |
| 488-001-000 | Kleinendorst Rem / Bolt Disassembly Tool | $24.95 |
| 488-002-000 | Kleinendorst Rem Firing Pin Tool | $15.75 |
| 969-634-028 | Wollf Blitzschnell 28lb Striker Spring Rem 700 | $8.29 |
| 901-100-000 | Tanks Rifle Shop Speedy Knob for Harris Bipod | $6.40 |
Hope this helps =)
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:46:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.6.138.69)
A while back someone asked for more information on the RAMO systems rifles. Here is an update after a few phone calls. New buyers listen up because these guys may well possess the most economical and military capable .50 caliber in manufacture today.
A fine rifle builder by the name of Earl Reddick started working for RAMO a few months back. Earl Reddick is one of the pioneers of .50 caliber rifles and build one of the first .338/.416 rifles (.338 Lapua) in the US. It's possible that Earl is responsible for the cartridge taking hold at least in the military communities. Earl also built the first rifle using a Remington M700 long action mildly modified to allow the bolt to stroke farther allowing the long cartridge clean ejection from the action.
Earl co-designed the early M500 Haskins rifle, worked for Daisy when they made the M600 in .50 caliber US, 12.7 Soviet, and 14.5 Soviet. He also soley designed and built the M602 .338/.416 rifle. He now works for RAMO and they have picked up his design the M600 and the M650. Price quote for the two rifles is between $1800 and $3800 depending on how they are setup. I imagine this is without optics prices. Here are some particulars:
M600 is the single shot. It is a shell holder design that keeps the OAL of the action the shortest possible. The rifle's weight is 23 lbs. making it the lightest .50 caliber in it's class, that being military capable tactical rifle. The stock is adjustable for length of pull. Barrell length is 32 inches.
M650 is a magazine feeder. The magazine is a revolutionary rotary design similar to the Steyr design, but far superior and stonger. The magazine holds 7 rounds. Rifle weight is 29.8 lbs. Barrel length is 30 inches. Extra OAL is attributed to the action design allowing a repeating bold mode of operation.
Am going to meet with RAMO at the shotshow next week. Will try to obtain for an evaluation and keep you posted. This rifle is the bright spot on the horizon. I have shot all of Earl's designs and with the exception of the Windrunner, is ahead of it's time, when it was designed in the early 80s.
Trigger50 <triggerfifty@specialoperations.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:47:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.181.197.160)
I've been wanting to mention this: Does everyone know that Gale McMillan used to post at http://www.thefiringline.com ? I've just discovered the site recently. There's a lot of good rifle info there, at least for a bolt gun beginner like me. Do a search on Gale McMillan (if I've spelled his name right) to find the threads he posted in.
Doug McKay
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:52:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 160.94.47.3)
Doug
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:56:46 (ZULU) (your
host address: 160.94.47.3)
If you read the archives for the last few years, you will find that
Fed brass has "fallen from grace", and is low on the list of prefered brass.
This was discussed in the last few weeks (again!).
Top choices are Lapua, Norma, Winchester, Lake city... maybe one
or two others.
>>"I have been on other sites and there chat boards are just a bunch
of 5 year olds fighting with one another."<<
Don't get your hopes up... we scrap with eachother all the time.
But we also shoot, drink, and chase sheep with each other, too! ;)
Kleinendorsttools (and other M700 bolt tools)...
Sinclair has two M700 bolt tools... one for compressing the spring,
and removing the firing pin unit from the body (I can't do the shoe lace
thing... loafers!!)... and the other to remove the the pin/spring from
the shroud... good tools (what else would expect from Sinclair).
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Peekin' outta my hide, lookin for ewe know what ;)) in the "x" rated,
USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:58:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.126)
Bill Bell, the laminated stock is plenty stable (what with all the layers of wood and glue). You might want to glass-bed the action if you think it needs it, but otherwise put the money you will otherwise spend on an H-S stock into ammo and maybe a trigger job, or into a good scope, rings, and mount. If you absolutely have to have a "High-speed / low drag" sniper rifle before you can shoot to its off-the-rack potential (probably under an inch at a hundred yards) spray paint it camouflage and everyone will admire it while you start banging away and getting trigger time.
Feldwebel MP, welcome back. Are there any more of those PSG-1s cluttering up the dealer's shop at that price? Mount the B&L, you'll be very, VERY happy (you LUCKY dog!). It's a heavy toy, but very much worth what you paid for it (they want way too much for them here in the states -- I've bought cars for less).
We mounted Leupold M3s, and some of the fellas we exercised with overseas had nice 12X Leupold fixed powers on theirs. 800 meters, no sweat (easy shot). Saw best accuracy with Lapua. My company master sniper saw some PSG-1 guys get beat out by SVD snipers (it's the nut behind the butt, not the toys).
Rick, you guys work the PSG at school?
Torsten and Stefan, you guys have been too quiet of late -- Wie gehts?
(T, will try to get the SGM's contact data for you...he should be
back soon).
Dang Jen, you get all those toys together quick! The suspense is killing us.
Uh, guys? Terry Gander in Jane's insists on standing ground on reticles and graticules. I'm not English (though I like them) but it annoys me. I'm not sure he even shoots. How 'bout "Them line things with the dots on 'em"?
Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 03:17:33 (ZULU)
(your host address: 66.26.26.131)
Lito - Do you get the blazing headaches that I get from those "rose colored" disasters? Also have you noticed a lowered ability to observe into shadows and at dusk with them? Of course the forward signature is a joy to behold when you get that lovely rose reflection off of the lens. Of course placing a veil or other relection reducing apparatus in front of the lens only lowers the light transmitance more. Have you guessed I am less then excited with them? Engaged huh?
Gooch - Think warm, feel the force. Happy New year! Keep the chainsaws running. :-)
Have fun all, you too DDashboard.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 03:35:18 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.23)
NOW I'm out of here.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 03:50:31 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.23)
Just posted a list of weapons for sale on emporium. You might want to take a look. Some interesting stuff there. Giving you first crack at it until Saturday.
Sorry, Jen, I'm NOT selling may Aussie L1A1...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 04:01:47 (ZULU)
(your host address: 198.145.248.211)
That's quite a list you've got up on the block! Wouldn't happen to have an ol' S&W Hand Ejector 2nd Model in .45 Auto Rim (.45 ACP with moonclips), would ya? (Only old S&W anymore!)
"Sky won't snow and the sun won't shine" is what we've been getting here, mostly.... it's cold, dreary, blustery... I don't mind it if there's enough snow to make it pretty or play in, but cold w/o snow, or worse w/ ice, I'll let Texas have it.... (just for you 2-shoes!)
Still hunting for a cheap action, if I can find a local one to pick up I'll be happy... and off-season for gunsmiths is coming, too...
Gotta go back to work tomorrow, it's been nice being off for several days, but it'll be hard rolling out of the rack in the morning, that's for sure. Ah well....
L8R,
-L
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 05:00:19 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.98.77.124)
Doug
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
It's warm here, in Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at
05:21:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3)
Daniel Hotte: Listen to Bill about the .338. Moose ain't prarie-dogs so the last 1/2 minute of angle isn't worth much. You want to put them down RIGHT NOW. That's a job for a large bullet at a moderate velocity. Think 250 grain Noslers. There's something very satisfying about center-shooting large animals with that bullet. There's minimal meat loss. You can eat right up to the bullet hole. The 7mm is much messier. The 'Boss' adds barrel length. That's awkward in the alders.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 05:52:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.253.13)
Just like I said I was going to do, last week I did the OD Green Teflon/Moly finish over the parkarized finish of my Remington 870 Police. Cleaning the exterior of the gun down will be a very simple ordeal from now on, even easier than cleaning the surface of regular parkarizing. I left the area under the forearm for a future coating because I simply forgot to do it at the time. The gun is kinda interesting looking with wood stocks with mixed black and green parts. Take a look over on my site if you're interested, the darn scanner made the wood stocks of the 870 appear to be much more "red" than they actually are in real life.
I got the 870 just in time as there is a 3gun match coming up at the end of this month.
Do a cut and paste for the 870 if you wanna just see those pics because I have an opening sound file for the main page that might make the page slow for dialup users, http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/870P.html
Also I put a picture of a darn big and darn mean gopher snake up
on my site. This 7ft long gopher snake was caught out in the hills during
a trail run. One of the more impressive snakes I've ever come in contact
with, I haven't gotten to play with any rattlesnakes yet so till then this
one is the big prize taker. Snake pics are here, http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/snake.html
B. Douglas
<uglygun@lightspeed.net>
I'd swear that I have a love affair with the color OD Green, Cowpie,
Ca, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 06:12:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.161.204.203)
Emporium has an ITT 6015 3rd gen. monocular at a super price. Hard to find, now restricted to LE and can't be exported without State Dept. Permit. Outstanding when mounted behind Aimpoint Comp M XD sight.
I have no connection with the seller, just wanted to alert all of you looking for NV that here is the ultimate. Just ask the Undude how this device works.
Hear me, Bill? This is why God made credit cards.
Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 07:54:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.254.238.101)
Ruger Super Redhawk (SS), .44 Mag, 7.5" bbl, Leupold 2X scope.
240 gr. Hornady XTP, 23.9 gr. IMR 4227, CCI 350 primer (warning!
compressed charge).
Six shots, w/0.91 max spread, at 25 yards.
There are, in reality, two three-shot groups, as I made a slight
scope adjustment after the first three shots.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 16:57:27 (ZULU)
(your host address: 65.25.160.112)
Happy New Year to you all, albeit a little bit late. May this year be better than the best of the past.
Thanks to Ken for standing in while I was away.
Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 19:32:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
155.239.180.215)
There is nothing really wrong with the Springfield scopes for casual shooting. They are made by Hakko in Japan (or were). They do not possess the hardiness/toughness of the Leupold Mark 4 series or the variable derivatives. Also, the odd 56mm objective size is a pain to mount correctly without antics to establish a good cheek weld.
On PSS tune-ups, go through the archives. We were just discussing
this a few weeks ago. Discussions primarily centered around correcting
deficiencies in stock. Very easy to accomplish at home. Not addressed were
barrel set-back and rechambering to regain throat length, relugging with
heavy lug and recrowning. Next step up, trash barrel, clean up action and
screw on a Hart 10 twist tube. Then start punching one holers with your
custom reloads. You are planning to reload... aren't you? We will happily
help you spend your money.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, Its too Cold FL, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at
02:24:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.246.62)
Good day all!
Just wanted to send a note of thanks to George Gardner of GA Precision.
I sent George a PSS Action and AICS series I stock and what he sent back
was a masterpiece. I've included a link to photos of the rifle. I broke
it in with 60 rounds of Black hills moly 168 gr HPBT using JB paste and
Kroil for cleaning during the break in. I then shot 4 groups of 5 rounds
for accuracy at 100 yards. The group sizes ranged from .25" to .38" c-t-c
with a crosswind of 10-15 mph. I've owned the Tango-51 by Tactical Operations
and the AWC M40A1, this is by far the best rifle. Yes, this is an unsolicited
endorsement, but I just wanted you guys to know that GA Precision and George
Gardner turns out great rifles.
Ken
<hadesze0@pacbell.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 02:39:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.203.153.52)
Hello,
Need some information on powder.Please help,it is for a friend.Who
makes,and where to get the following powders XMP5744 and XMR2495??Sorry
to trouble you all but you guys rule in the art of shooting.
Thanks Alot
DOMMER!
Jeff Wojcik <go2jncw@g2a.net>
Stevens Point, Wi., USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 02:42:16
(ZULU) (your host address: 206.157.185.95)
Lady and Gents,
Thought I'd do a post in my continuing saga of .308 vs 6.5 X .284.
Trajectory comparison...this is something we can all appreciate.
My accuracy load for my .308 is our much talked about 44.0 gr. Varget under a 175 SMK, Lapua case, and Fed 210 M primer. Assembled to an OAL of 2.800". Velocity of this from my Obermeyer barreled M40A1 clone is 2,650 FPS. This achieves point of aim/point of impact hits at 600 yards with 15 MOA.
The 6.5 X .284 from my Chandler Super Sniper does and honest 2,960
FPS and accomplishes the same feat using only 11.25 MOA. That's a substantial
difference.
Load is: 142 Sierra SMK, Norma Brass, 54.6 gr. H4831SC, and a Fed
210 M primer. Loaded to an OAL of 2.98"
Both guns are turning in 1/2 MOA groups at 600 and better that considerably when I can get my stuff in one bag.
Thought I'd post this, as an enticement, to those who are straddling the fence on the 6.5 vs .300 issue. Oh, did I say you can still move your arm afterwards?
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 04:06:57 (ZULU)
(your host address: 198.145.249.40)
Ok fellas which is better? Chandler or Armament Technology??
And what is the difference in the old AT1-M24 and AT1-C24? Are these
the same rifles? I read a review that said the AT1-M24 guaranteed
.25 M.O.A , but the website said the AT1-C24 guarantees .50 M.O.A.
Help I know someone out there knows what's up. Thanks
Chris W <curel28@bellsouth.net>
Nash., Tn., USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 04:37:41 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.214.119.59)
Some of you may recall my mention of wanting to explore tha MAS 49-56 rifle as a platform for a precision tactical or match rifle. I have started this project and have made some pretty substantial progress on it and thought I might share. This is the first such elaborate project I have undertaken and have learned a lot over the past few weeks.
The stock is from a brown laminated blank that came fomr Gun Parts Corporation for $39 or so. Is is supposidly Remington surplus of some sort and seems to be of good quality. I ordered a already partially shaped blank, which it one of the reason the pistol grip looks a bit funny. It should work out though. In the future I will order the log-like, unshaped version for the same money. It is now beginning to resemble a stock, but I have a lot of carving to go. It is now just right for your typical 7'2", 450lb shooter. The inleting was perfomed almost exclusivly on the milling machine. Anothing thing I like about this action: most every surface on it is square to everything else, so it is easy to hold in a milling machine vice and easy to inlet using standard end mills and such.
The barrel is also from GPC, a $29 sporter weight .30-06 tube that they made fo fit an as-yet unidentified bolt gun. I parted off the rear 1/2 inch or so, turned it down to the correct diameter for the shank, rethreaded, chambered, headspaced, and made the breeching cuts. Pretty simple stuff, as such things go. I also ended up turning the front of the barrel down to about 1/2", smaller than desired. One reason for this is that the sporter contour is really too light to turn a paralell section to fit a gas block. I am not sure if I will ever fire this barrel as I dont want to have to fit the handguards and gas system twice. I will be ordering a Douglas Airgauged, Lothar Walther or comperable barel in a heavy contour within a couple of weeks. This cheapie tube has served its purpose in providing me with a lot of valuable expereince at a much lower anxiety level than with a pricier barrel. Pity it wont be shot, as the blank Numrich started with was actualy of good quality. Numrich/GPC is underrated as a maker of quality barrels, in my experience.
The gas block (not pictured) will be made from a 2" x .75" piece of stainless steel, a four-foot long section of which I managed to find our scrap pile (!). How could I have forgotten about that one? :) The gas tube will be a standard M16 part, with an adaptor to fit at the receiver end turned out of some 316 stainless steel round I bought. I used the same steel to fabricate the escucheon that the action and trigger housing screw thread into.
The hanguard fitted is out of a piece of 2 1/4" Schedule 40 6061 T6 aluminum pipe. It is attached to the reciever via a hanger I machined out of a 1 1/2" 6061 aluminum that attaches to the reciever with three 1/4-28 tpi screws. The barrel is completly free-floating and the handguard and bracket are sized to clear a barrel up to 1.3" in diameter. Also pictured is the laminated forend that was cut off of the blank, and I think I will fit it as well, depending on which route I want to take. It would be easier to set it it with a hand rail, in any event. It might be a little prettier, too. :)
Also to be done: trigger tuning (M14-like, but better), scope mount fabrication and fitting, possible fabrication of an adjustable butplate and/or cheekpiece, titanium firing pin (if I can find anyone that will sell me some without making a $150 minumum order, grr...).
Here are links to a couple of pics:
Included are a stock MAS 49-56 and my 700PSS, with LRM3, Badger rings, Bayer Lightforce bases, Eagle pack, target rail, handstop, bipod and Undude SupahSling.
Lot of work to go, but I'm pretty happy so far.
Steiner vs IOR.
IORs are heavier and cheaper. Optical quality is very close. I own 7x40 and 10x50 IORS and have put them up against Steiners. They do very well. I suspect you would have to go to Zeiss and other $1000+ class optics to gain any improvement over what IOR sells.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 05:36:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 24.88.84.155)
The links below dont work, but if you cut-and-paste the URL manualy,
it will work.
Sorry.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 05:44:03 (ZULU)
(your host address: 24.88.84.155)
Hey to all you hogs out there. Semper Fi!
tommy goodson <T1Gunn@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 07:09:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.203.248.158)
I really wish I could come by all the things I have posted over the
past few days all at once so I could include them all in one post, I saw
this colorful description of gun show attendees and had to give you a heads
up. Don't know where this came from but I laughed pretty good at it. It
seems all the characters described in this satire have probably been encountered
atleast once or twice by all who have attended a gunshow. The stuff about
the knife and jerky guys hits home because that's about all our Ca. gunshows
are now after the recent gun legislation, "Ammo, Knife, & Jerky Shows."
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum3/HTML/028249.html
I put it under the webpage url for my name as well so just click
on that to go there.
B. Douglas
<uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 07:47:36 (ZULU)
(your host address: 24.161.204.203)
Hey Hey
This is my first post to this Board. I am fairly new at Long Rang
Target Shooting and i wish to keep it up. Ive got a quick question if u
dont mind. Ive been looking to buy a scope and a friend has suggested the
Leupold Vari X II 3-9x 40mm Tactical w/ Mildot. However i have noticed,
on this site, a fair amout of mention that includes the Leupold Vari X
III 3.5-10 40mm Tactical w/ Mildot. I am in conflict between these two
and would appriciate a little help if you could spare some.
Im am primaraly fixated on Long Range Target Shooting and will probably
do minimal hunting.
If you could sudgest the better one and why it would be better for
me it would be great. Also if you have another scope in mind please alert
me to its existence.
I will probably be getting a Remington Model 700P but that also
is in question. If you have any knowledge that would help me out in that
descision also it would be greatly appritiated.
If you would like to talk with me i have e-mail which should be listed
at the bottom somewhere and i am also on ICQ AIM YAHOO and MSN. Just e-mail
me if you would like to talk.
I look forward to being on the board more often if you would have
me.
Thanks for all of your time: )
Mr B
Brandon <mista_b1@hotmail.com>
Canada - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 09:33:51 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.209.117.14)
Sorry guys,
The Leupold Vari X III i was talking about in the messege above
this one is the 3.5-10x 40mm LR M3 Tactical w/ Mildot
I forgot to mention the LR M3 part and i am let to beleive that
that is an important part to include
Mr B
Brandon <mista_b1@hotmail.com>
Ontario, Canada - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 09:45:56 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.209.117.14)
'For you guys down the "breaking news", Ken, Mike. I have to tell you
that George Gardner building materpieces and Ruger Redhawks shooting one
hole groups at 25 yards is yesterday's wine. Not to belittle your comments
and it's nice to hear from you though, it's nice to know there's still
something good around.
Brandon; taking you seriously that your shooting targets I would
stay with the 1/4" clicks and possibly the fixed power scopes if that is
your main pursuit. Let's see that's M1 fixed 10 or even something a little
more power. Target work usually presents better light than tactical situations
and it's not normally a problem to keep track of your turrent settings
when you have sighting shots and adequate time.
You can't have too much "good optical resolution" on targets. Our
man in Optics Lito' can tell you about that stuff. In your case I would
question the need for MIl DOTS. A good target reticle would probably be
better for you since the light should be good a smaller dot or cross hair
usually works best.
The advantages of the M3LR would be negated by neccessity in your
case. There's always plenty of info target shooters can use and plenty
of rifle tuniing hints on SC. We all welcome your participation I'm sure.
Tom S. your comments remind me that my experience indicates that
good optics are easier to achieve and cost is easier to bring down as the
weight increases.But I am a bit tired (pun perhaps) of heavy optics. I
might suggest that the best compromise is somewhere around the Steiner
level if "no focus" is your game. If use demands or allows that you use
center focus. The Lieca 8X20 is the best I've ever seen at $369.00 and
rebates. The light and resolution has to be seen to be believed in a small
Bino. I compared them to Zeiss and found them as good or better at the
view. They seem rugged enough and come in
Titanium also. I don't know if the quality of the Titanium model
is as good because I've not seen it but the finish shines.
]"
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 12:37:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Ref: WIMs
It is common practice to train on E-type and F-type steel targets aka "White Iron Maiden" (WIMs). These WIM targets are brightly colored, of known size and are generally fully exposed. WIMs are good training aids and enable the shooter to develop his ability to range the target using the mil-dot reticle and they also provide immediate feed-back for hits.
Is it reasonable to assume that operationally targets will seldom be fully exposed, often of unknown size and generally camouflaged? I think so.
I think that to train and qualify using only WIMs will produce shooters skilled at hitting WIMs while leaving that shooter illprepared for actual operations.
The use of WIMs also contributes to the notion that the mil-dot reticle is more useful for range finding that it actually is. This notion contributes to the widely held belief that laser range finders are unnecessary. I know the laser is an active emitter and can pose serious OPSEC issues. I am sure these issues can be mitigated. The laser still provides the most accurate means for range finding available and not only can it be used but it should be used as required.
Once a shooter has gained skill and developed his data how should he then train? Wouldn't it be prudent to transition to targets at unknown distances, of unknown size and at least partially concealed? Shouldn't we focus our training on methods for minimizing the hazards associated with the use of laser rangefinders as an adjunct to the mil-dot reticle?
I am not an expert.
I am an amateur with questions.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 13:10:46
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Brandon,
Your situation sounds very similar to mine when I first got into
serious shooting. If you're going for paper targets, a LR series Lupita
with a fine duplex (my personal favorite) reticle will serve you well.
I'd seriously look at the VX-III 6.5-20x50mm LRT. It comes stock with tall
target knobs and side focus, plus has lots of power. Good way to get in
the door quick.
You can make it more interesting (al-la Two Shoe's setup) by having
Mk4 M1 style windage and elevation knobs installed at Premier Reticles
(www.premierreticles.com) for ~$65, or just order one new from them with
the M1 knobs pre-installed. If you want to ring steel rather than punch
paper, go with the 3/4 mil-dot reticle and have Premier collumnate it for
~$25.
Depends what you want it for, of course, and your intended use dictates
the equipment required. I started wih the stock 6.5-20x50LRT and am now
making the changes at premier I just described (thank you Terry) because
I'm moving away from straight paper. You may follow in this way, or go
on your own. It depends on you and what you want/like.
FWIW,
Roger
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Bush country, Y'all!, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 14:55:58
(ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)
Nom de Plume...
IOR's are from Romania, and have an excellent reputation.
Doug...
The IOR's don't have the "red" coating (at least none of them I've
seen), but the Tabascos, and lots of other consumer bins have it... it's
very "Hip" and "stylish" with the sailboat set, but does nothing to make
seeing better.
This red on the Tabascos bins, is not the same as the light pink of the "counter-laser" filters, on the later M22 Steiner, and other military bins. Those filters are pinkish because the frequency of ranging lasers is 1.06 microns(1060 Ang)... and a little of the green wavelength of .530 Mu (530 Ang) is also canceled, because it's the second harmonic of the laser frequency... so technically, it has a magenta tint. (There will be a test in the morning ;)
Rick-ster...
No!... not my favorite color, but I couldn't turn them down... $330
from Steiner, with the papers, about 1/4 to 1/3 the going price.
I don't get headaches from them, but there is reduced shadow penetration
at dusk/dawn.
KilFlash does make a really good front anti-reflection set for it...
not like the little cheapies from Leupold... these are about 2" deep, with
very open hunnycomb.
I got them in part, because of the price, and in part, because I have an AN/GVS-5, and friends of mine have the big Russian rangefinders, that are about 5 or 6 times more powerfull (real paint peelers)... and the posibility of an accidental reflection off something shinny, when captured by a 50mm optic, does concern me (I'm an old model, and can't get replacement parts anymore ;)
Kevin... (El Jefe de' Team Mussack)
On WIM's... I disagree with your assement of mildots.
First off, when any student is learning to use a math type tool,
they are given simple examples, with single digit numbers, and nice easy
angles, over and over and over, so they can get the format imprinted in
their mind... The same with "WIM"s.
But when they get that down pact, then they are given the complex
odd numbers with decimals, with odd sizes, and fractionated angles, to
get very complex answers.
IT's the same with mildots.
You start out with 20"x48" targets, all nicely exposed, until it's
second nature... but then remember there are thousands of other standard
objects in the field to range on, even when the target is hiding... hubcaps,
window and door frames, phone pole diameters... tons of stuff whose size
is standardized by the industry that makes them... target is hiding behind
a Honda Accord... the hubcap is 13"... behind a ford Explorier, hubcap
is 15"... on and on... you just need to plan ahead.
Instead of mildots being over-rated, I think they are under-rated.
Lasers... Yup, use 'em if you got 'em (and it's safe!!).
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 15:44:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.59)
Bill,
I think that even though it might be "yesterday's wine" it is good
to hear about customer testominials.
Previously there have been some newcomers posting questions about
high dollar loooong wait time tactical rifles. So when there are some great
gunmiths out there that can turn around a product quickly and at a reasonable
price it is nice to know about them.
It is difficult (at least for me) to plunk down a chunk of money on a rifle without talking to somebody that has one. After speaking with Undude a couple of years ago I got hooked! I ended up getting three rifles from Jerry Rice and just got the chance to shoot the "Rock" from George Gardner. It is very gratifying to end up with equipment that truly performs! All of these rifles can shoot 1/4 MOA. I can come close to that some times, but I have seen Undude do it regularily.
Both of those guys make great rifles and you don't need to spend $5,000 of wait a year for them.
For me it is confidence in my equipment, I just need to keep practicing, learning and listening!
I got a chance to shoot Mike's .338 Lapua yesterday. Boom! What a caliber! It wasn't that uncomfortable to shoot, and it was fun to throw big lead down range.
I was also shooting 220 gr. ammo in my.300 WM Rice Nighthawk. The muzzle, flash hider thing that he puts on the end made the rifle very comfortable to shoot. I actually thought that it felt much like a .308.
If anybody wants to shoot a .300 mag, but doesn't want to deal with
the recoil or the increased blast from a Vais type brake I strongly suggest
you check it out.
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 16:41:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.192.208.6)
Bill,
I hear you, but we forget about all the new guys on here once in
a while. As a perfect example I had a guy bring over a new custom rifle
to have the scope mounted on it, you should have seen it. He paid around
$1500 for it and the caliber wasn't even stamped on the barrel and it looked
like his 10 year old kid buffed the barrel with buffing marks all over
it. It didn't even have allen screws in the action and when I took it apart
to put them in I had to use a pliers to pull them out because they were
nearly bedded into the stock. He wants to get into long range shooting
and this guy is trying to sell him a 33x416 and says it will shoot 10"
groups at 1 mile. I hate to see people taken advantage of and if putting
the names of good smiths on here will keep someone from getting screwed
what the hell. Killing any yotes?? Weathers been terrible here but finally
starting to warm up.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 17:09:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Has anyone done a review on the Springfield Armory M1A Scout/Squad
rifle? Looking for information online other than what little bit is on
the SA site. Hey Bravo. Aren't you Sniper Countrys, gas gun NCOIC? Whats
the deal?
Don
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.com>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 17:17:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.83.80.220)
White iron maidens are simply the targets that most people use to shoot
at for UKD training since they are the cheapest way to accuratley ID where
a student hits. Most of the time when we are teaching "range estimation"
we will use humans, vehicles, objects in the bush etc. Dont confuse range
estimation training with unknown distance shooting. I know they are inter-related
but the iron maidens are not really for range estimation training.
I would prefer to be able to shoot at maidens for training and developing zeros and then shoot at reactive targets such as RETS for qual courses, final evaluations etc. I think this is how SOTIC does it. I have painted maidens OD before but its a bitch to spot hits. You can hear the clang but a precise impact point is usually impossible to see.
IOR binos use removable laser filters that fit onto the eye pieces
vice the objective lenses which I think is a superior way of providing
protection against DEW.
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 18:33:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
166.102.22.56)
Gooch...
The filters that go in the eyepieces of IOR bins, are not Laser
filters, and offer no protection from IR rangfinders.
They are just amber "haze" filters to better seeing conditions during atmospheric haze, like yellow shooting glasses.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 19:08:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.50)
Just have a question reguarding sidearms. I am about to change my sights
on a Kimber 45ACP full size 1911 to tactical fixed low light/night sights,
what are your opinions/experiences with 2 Dot vs. 3 Dot vs. Low Bar vs
Ghost Ring 2 Dot vs Ghost Ring 3 dot? I am leaning toward Novak's 2 dot
Ghost Ring or Low Bar w/front dot. My only concern is that I have had trouble
with 2 dot sights on a Sig 229 with quick first shots from a draw. At distances
beyond 20 yds they are falling low or high because dots are elevated correctly.
Don't know if it has anything to do with the shorter sight picture of the
229 or probably just me blowing the first shot? Any comments?
Also are retention lanyards worth while? Any comments on pros/cons.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 19:10:39 (ZULU)
(your host address: 32.97.88.102)
Kent: thanks for the laser filter info on the IOR's! Glad to see you
back too. I take it that everone is fine in the ice aftermath? Are those
laser filters hard to come by? Haven't seen them on the PX website. Maybe
I just need to learn how to use a computer VBG Glad you didn't have a very
"shocking" experience!
Don: thanks for the vote of confidence, and I'd probably make a heck of a lot better NCOIC than butterbar ;-) As to Springfields rifle, I've not handled the scout version, but have a fair approximation from the M1A1 that they put out. My short form answer is "don't". Springfield isn't putting GI parts in their rifles anymore, and hasn't for quite some time. Likewise, the quality of what's coming from Geneseo isn't up to the par it was years ago. For instance (and this is being picky, but it's something I think we can all quickly take a look at) pull your action and see what the receiver legs look like. On my most recent example, it looked like file teeth where nobody had cleaned up the DEEP machine cuts. After hardening, it'll do your bedding or stock JUST LIKE that hardened file too! That and I've heard too many horror stories of late about the service there. Heck, I've even contributed one recently. My suggestion? Get a Springfield Inc stripped reciever. Last time I looked they were in the $450 category. Have it built by a GREAT smith, and have a blast. He'll use nothing but premium US GI parts, hardened properly, and it'll last a lifetime. If you want the scout scope, this can be done when they work the barrel. Just my opinion though LOL, and if you need the number of a great gas gun smith, I'll hook you up with him.
The 6.5 Swede experiment continues tomorrow. Did some "lunchtime" chronoing, came out much better than expected! With that Rem 140 grain, square based, soft point I got a high of 2741 fps. That was with completely rounded primers and beautiful striker punches. Geoff says to add 150 fps for transitioning from my square base hunting bullet to the 142 SMK due to bearing surface. In other words, I'm sitting at 2900 fps with the SMK, calculated. So tomorrow I'll see if I can push her another 100 fps, at least 50, before the primers start to flatten. I'm betting it will be just fine at 2850, maybe more.
Speaking of 6.5 Swedes, hey TorF, you lurking out there? Drop me
an e-mail if you wouldn't mind! I understand you're the guru of the Swede.
Bravo - Patriots
USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, looking at a Swede immigrant, USA - Thursday,
January 04, 2001 at 19:14:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
SPRINGFIELD 1903A4 SNIPER QUESTION.... Recently, I looked at a Springfield
Sniper rifle in very good condition. It was equipped with
what looked to be the correct Redfield scope base and rings and
a
M73B1 scope. This rifle was stamped 1903A3 however. The stamping
was
of the proper style and in the right place for a sniper rifle. I
read
Dick Culvers' article, and I know that he states that most of the
03A4's that he has seen have been stamped 03A3! I don't doubt Dick
Culvers' expertise in this matter at all, but can anyone give me
the
reason these rifles were stamped in this manner? I am considering
purchasing this rifle and would appreciate any info.
'LITO.... I know that you're getting a big 50. Have you seen the
new
scope rings from Dan Ross? Six top screws and TWO crossbolts per
ring.
Hell for stout, just like all of Dan's other stuff. Just right for
a 'Fifty Towed'. :-)
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 19:31:59
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.79)
Lenses of ruby, red, magenta and so on. This got me thinking. I'm red/green
color blind. Do these reddish lenses create problems for men like me? I
hate the red inserts on the front site of some revolvers, first because
it's plastic, but also because it's red. Blue would be easier to see. There
are labels on things that the combination of colors used, makes them impossible
for me to read. I'm wondering if the reddish tinted lenses may have a similar
effect.
More on color blindness. I have a vague memory of reading as a kid about how in the WWII era men with red/green color blindness were able to detect camo out of the natural surrounding. For some reason they weren't fooled as easily. Does this make sense? I don't remember where I read it, so it's just a floating "factoid" in my mind.
To me, a green stoplight is the same color as the streetlights, in most cases. It sure isn't army green. And the red light is more orange/red than firetruck red.
Is there any chance of getting the Duty Roster editor in the Roster's reverse reading section too?
What the heck is magenta anyway? Is that like fuschia? I have no idea what color those are. My color categories come from the Big 8 box of crayons: black, brown, blue, red, orange, yellow, green, white.
Doug
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 20:00:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 128.101.249.66)
Doug...
"What the heck is magenta anyway?"
It's a purplish color... technically, it is white light, with less,
or no green component.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 20:27:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.50)
Doug what is magenta?
The additive priniciple of combining colors is: When thay have been separated, the primary color components of light-red, green, and blue-can be recombined to produce all the other colors or white, and the total absence of color is black. Called additive primaries because they introduce color where none exisits (black), each of these colorstransmits about one-third of the spectrum's wavelengths; the addition of any one of these colors to the other when projected in separated beams of light can probuce other colors. Overlapped in beams of light, all three appear to the eye as white. This may be shown by setting up three slide projectors. Place a No. 25 red filter over the frist projector lens, a number 58 green filter over the second and a number 47 blue filter over the third. Now turn out the lights, turn on the projectors, and overlap their beams of light on a screen. By combining the colors from the three projectors, you can produce:
red + green = yellow
green + blue = cyan (bluish green)
blue + red = magenta (purplish red)
red + green + blue = white
The colors probucec by combining two additive primaries are called
secondray colors. A primary and a secondary coloer whose light(in similar
situations) combines to make white light are called complementary colors.
On the color wheel coplements are opposite each other- such as blue and
its complementary color yellow or red to cyan, or green to magenta.
LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 21:21:58 (ZULU) (your host
address: 204.24.102.133)
Ref: mil-dot ranging limitations
'lito....
I am sure that under most circumstances a military or LEO sniper will be operating in an area well populated with objects of known size.
Imagine operations in wilderness areas devoid of objects of known size. Where is the hubcap or the mailbox or the window frame to range to? What then? The mil-dot reticle is there but a key element is absent until the target shows up. When the target arrives I hope to have my range card completed and ready.
A laser seems to make sense especially when the bad guys are absent.
Gooch wrote:
"I know they are inter-related but the iron maidens are not really
for range estimation training."
Got it.
If the Iron Maidens were not populating the hillside at SMTC what would be there to mil-dot range on? Without man made objects of know size in the proximity of the target you're out of luck with the mil-dots.
Or am I missing something here?
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 22:17:39
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Dear Mr Pablito,
I understand from reading the past roster you have a good handle
on optic questions. Need information on IOR scopes. I see they are listed
in the PX. No one I know has one, what are optics like? Clarity(edge to
edge), repeatablity(square test)and mp8 reticle pattern. Will recticle
pattern get bigger as I dial up power? I will be using this primarly for
yote hunting across irrigated wheat fields and local tactical match.Will
be put on top of 308 rifle. Mostly just a farm boy trying to get them yotes
eating gophers and calves. Will use some for praire dog hunting in middle
of summer. Have been using a Zeiss w/plex. No good for wind and guessing
distance. Have lots and lots of wind where I live, New Mexico. Looking
at 4x10x50 unit. Will not have to do any sneaking and peeking. So objective
size is not a problem. Cost for this scope is w/in budget unless there
is something better. If anyone has a comment or different option please
let me know. My e-mail is rainbowr@plateautel.net Thank you
Frank LeCrone <rainbowr@plateautel.net>
Tucumcari, NM, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 22:22:27 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.167.164.196)
Not laser filters!!!! Oh shit... I was wondering why things were getting
fuzzy!!
Damn!!!!
I wonder if IOR makes laser filters for those things?
One other thing about laser filters on bino's or any other optics intended for observation/tgt detection. One thing I've noticed is that the filters tend to screw up your color perception when viewing through them. It used to screw me and other guys up when trying to detect concealed items.
Back to packing the Jimmy!!! I hit the road friday night!!
Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 22:24:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
162.39.136.187)
Ref Geo Gardiner and one holers with Redhawk... my favorite .44 mag
by the way.;
Yeah you guys are right. I was just being a cloused old smart ass.
Sorry about that. But anyway You new posters don't be dismayed, really
I was just saying yeah, Geo Gardiner do it right. And hell, yes Redhawks
shoot good.
Pat, I was doing well in the early part of the season but it went
slack for past few weeks. Wiley is gettin ready for breeding season he'll
be back and recklesss in a couple more.
Gooch, Mil Dots are only overrated when "I" try to use them.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 22:25:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Bill,
Actually when I re-read what you wrote I understand your point better.
I had also just come back from shooting several Rice and Gardner Rifles.
I am still feeling good about the way they work!
I have bought a lot of crap when I was younger, (and still now) but
it wasn't until I communicated with people like Mr. Undude that I finally
got pointed in the right direction!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 22:34:10 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.192.208.6)
Andy's Dad: Here's my take, but you know it's not worth anything. I'm
no sniper, and don't play one on TV. The way I look at it, a face is about
6 to 7" across. If I can see the face at 1/2 mil or more, he's within battle
sight range, and that's that! The error of the shot isn't worth talking
about. Elsewise, from beltline to head, across the chest, etc are all good
places for "generalizations". When the distance across the shoulders is
less than a mil though, I wouldn't chance the shot. It's too far for me
to guess about if that guy is a fatboy or some shortguy. Ideally he'd be
carrying an AK, 'cause I can range off that! If I knew more about com-bloc
stuff, I'm sure you could range off of rucks and such too. You get the
idea. Don't get me wrong, if I can't see something well enough (he's partially
obscured or such), then I'm not gonna risk the shot. Nothing worse than
having an RPG incoming ;-) All this makes me want to be closer so any error
in ranging isn't that bad, so I practice lots at 600 yards and in. When
I get out to 1000 yards, a little error in ranging is lots of drop. Besides,
my rifle is built for target to target quick acquisition and hasty fire
from 600, the way all rifles should be! HA!
Bravo - Patriots
USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Thursday, January
04, 2001 at 23:22:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Ref: Eye Protection (lasers)
What is available for eye protection from those lasers most likely to be encountered on the battlefield?
I'm thinking of a wrap-around, Z87 or better protection with prescription inserts and a head strap.
Considering the proliferation of lasers out there some protection
is called for.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 23:48:17
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.209.107)
Bravo San, you bringeth up an excellent point! I have really tried
putting together in my single feeble brain cell, what is a 'realistic distance'
to seriously practice at? Would slotted military snipers actually take
a shot at a 1000 or what is a more realistic FFP?
More questions for you to ponder while we are on the subject:
What are the 'practical' sniping ranges for 6.5x284, 308, 300mag and 338 Lapau? Are these also practical milling ranges? These would be optimum ranges that wind, etc. would affect the shot the 'least".
I may have asked this before but what's new? Why has the Sierra HPBTM been choosen as 'the' match bullet? How about the Bergers and others? I read an article about how the military gets around the Geneva Convention on the Matchking being a HP but are there not other bullets that could equal it?
If a friend really really wanted a 6.5x284 and he had to get rid of a 7mag Sendero or a 300 mag Sendero, which one should he get rid of? Oh and by the way, there are no Rem 700 stock varmit or sniper contour barreled factory rifles available in 30-06 to build the dang 6.5 on! Would have to get a BDL and strip it or get a multi million dollar barreled action from Brownells.
Starting off the new year with lots of questions as usual, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 23:51:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.49.118.232)
Fred Lecrone:
Fred - you're asking Pablito about optics - which he definitely
has down pat. However - if you'll hook him up with a sheepie - he would
probably come out and shoot those puppies from a mile away with his .50
cal.... :))
Feelin' froggy - and looking for that infra red beam from pablito's laser range finder any moment now.
Ken
Ken Hunter <HunterKR@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 00:32:27 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Kevin - ranging and sizes:
In the sniper log books, there are usually diagrams with measurements of the various spans across a humanoid profile - such as shoulder to shoulder, elbow to elbow, ear to hear, neck to waistline, etc. Sssssseeeemmmmss like if you could probably get a good mil'ling if the target exposes one of those areas.
Ken
Ken Hunter <Hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 00:40:51 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Ken: right on! but that still comes back to boltsters question. For
instance, I know that my target backing is 53" side to side. That's great,
I can range that sucker WELL, way out past where I should, with the little
Lupita spotter. So I know the range of the IDPA siloughets that are hanging
on there. Great. But there's no deviation in that 53" backer ever, and
it's LARGE in comparison to a person. There's some natural variation in
people however. And generalities are still generalities. So what's the
answer? I've got 2. First off is never shoot past the point where some
error will cause a miss or a shot to fall in an unacceptable place (like
the cover in front of the target). Second is to use a gas gun ;-) Feelin'
froggy too! HA!
Bravo - Patriots
USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Friday, January 05,
2001 at 01:03:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.222)
I've been conducting a little experiment over the last couple of weeks.
The typical practice/training session involves going to the range, setting
up, then firing a cold shot at some known range (typically 100 yds), then
firing at a bunch of known distances on a
familiar range. This seems the normal "trigger time", outside of
a match or hunting session. Even UKD shoots end up with a number of targets
out in a open area, which then you range and shoot. Every shot gets you
new info on wind and actual range, so it's not really
a cold shot on each target.
So I just tested myself as follows; each day, I would fire one to three shots. Each shot would be from a different location, at a new target position. I allowed 3 minutes after hiking to position to firing the shot. The shots would be fired at various times thoughout the day, in no case would two shots be fired within an hour of each other. I used a standard Gunsite camo target, stapled to a water heater box for a 3-D effect. This let me run a rod through the entry/exit holes to judge the hit quiality. All ranging was done using the mil dots in a Mark IV Leupold M1 10X, or a 25X spotter. Each range was confirmed by laser back to the FFP after marking the shot. So after 16 shots, here are the results.
12 hits, 3 "edgers". 4 shots were off the paper, but on the box. One could have been a thigh hit, assuming the target was standing straight up. This makes for 75% 'first round hits'. Average range worked out to 616 yards. The long hit was 810 the short hit 489. Shortest miss - 560 yards (lased), missed the range, over by 40 yards. The long miss was 825(lased), I ranged 750. Only one miss was due to wind, right 8" at an actual range of 689, too much hold into a more of a following wind that a crosswind.
The lack of wind problems was mostly the weather gods, the most correction needed was 3 minutes left, probably 40% needed nothing at all. some of the "edgers" were over/under compensated, but none over a minute either way.
What's this all mean? Well my data books tell me I get better than 95% first round hits on known distance range sessions from 600-800 yards. The misses are ALL wind related, the range and zero are known. This obviously does NOT translate to the actual sniper mission percentage. In addition to the 20% drop, lets not forget I had a very cooperative target. No movement, a known size, and good weather. Barrett Tillman once said, "You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training." It seems clear that this should be a continuing exercise. More ranging practice is also on the agenda.
Any of you operational guys want to do a review of your logs and
give us an idea what a good percentage might be?
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 01:04:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.86.140.51)
Andy's Dad,
Well if there aint nothing to mil then I guess we're left with the other methods to estimate distance like the 100 yard unit of measure, appearance of objects, partner averaging, maps, etc. Of course the laser will be used if applicable/available.
One question though. If there aint nothing to mil then wouldnt that mean there aint nothing to shoot either? I mean if you can lay a crosshair on it then you can mil it...
I spent the last couple of days at the bro in laws place when the power went out siting in his gazebo/deer hide miling out telephone poles, transformers, does and eyeballing distances etc. You get your sustainment training where you can get it.
out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 01:45:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
166.102.23.134)
OK, now I want a light, highly accurate .308 bolt gun. What does any
one know about the Remington Mod. 7 action? Is it as good as a SA M700,
only in miniature?
Or would the best option be to go w/ the SA 700?
Obviously it would, if not right away, eventually wear a somewhat
heavier KxP barrel and have Jr's voo-doo applied.
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
mer, Kalifornicateya, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 01:57:43
(ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.216.21)
OOOOPs, Sorry, MR. Rice. I meant "JR", not "Jr".
Spud
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 02:00:10
(ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.216.21)
Dennis:
Thumbs up on the Model 7. Have one in 7mm-08 and it one of "the"
best little rifles that I have ever owned. Light, easy in the woods! Pinned
a doe dead center in the heart at 265 yards last year with a sight in of
2 1/2" high at 100 and just about a dead hold on. I can't speak for the
308 in the Model 7 but would like to have one of them also ;) Put a 2.5-8
Lupito on her and you will really like it.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 02:05:41 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.50.55.73)
Shooters: I just read the Dept. of Defense selected Alliant Reloder
15 powder for the Army's new 7.62 M118 Special Ball Long Range Sniper round.
Now, has anybody tried duplicating that load, and is anybody ready to give
up their Varget? Thanks for any comments. Jerry.
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.10.31.72)
Ref Geo Gardiner and one holers with Redhawk...
I'm just biding my time, waiting for Remington to get around to churning out some more .308 PSS's, since my dealer tells me all his distributors are clean out of them. Meanwhile, I get to read yous guys braggin day after day about shooting sub-MOA groups at hundreds of yards with your fancy kits...
And I'm biding that time at the range with what I've got, the most accurate of which happens to be my Super Redhawk. Figgered it wouldn't hurt to do some bragging myself, and include the specs on the load I put together to do it with. Hell, the range master was pretty impressed with the results. You guys, however, aren't so easy to impress, and for good reason.
So, everyone who's bragged about the sub-MOA group size of your rig, raise your hand. Bill sez you can't do that no mo. To do so, in Bills own words, is, "yesterday's wine."
Ok, now that I've got that out of my system, I've got a question...
When Leupold says "3/4 mil. dot" what do they mean by the 3/4 part?
Aren't the dots spaced a full milliradian center to center?
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:03:52 (ZULU)
(your host address: 65.25.160.112)
Frank LeCrone...
"Mr. Pablito"??? I know I complain about not gettin' no respect on this site... but that's TOO much respect.... I can't handle it ;)
For your IOR scope questions, ask Mike (The Undude), he has several
of them.
I've got a pair of the bins with the infra-red detector built in,
and the 4x24 (PSO-1 type) scope coming as soon as the 300WM and the 50BMG
are paid for, and I will write a review of them both around April.
There are a lot of guys that have IOR bins, and a few that have
the scopes on this site... HEY YOUz GUYS... send this dude some e-mail!!
Andy's Dad (With a smile:)
I'm not knockin' lasers... I LOVE LASERS!!!
but I don't think Mildots get enuff respect. There are time when
one or the other is all you can use... for low tech targets (Somalian "Technicals),
lasers are fine day or night... for medium tech targets (field units, or
sentries)... lasers are good during the day, but risky at dusk... for hi-tech
targets (Tanks, or hi monied enemies, like big drug operations), lasers
are risky almost always.
'lito (Scooter's Dad ;)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:09:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.88)
Brew City Mike,
The answer to your question and more is here:
http://www.snipercountry.com/mil-moa.html
Cheers,
Roger
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Fully thawed in Austin, TX, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:21:24
(ZULU) (your host address: 24.160.1.144)
Andy's Dad: Ah haaah, Grass hoppa. Now you understand why we call them
"Exercises." This is normally where the demarkation comes between sniper
"basic training" (sniper school) and field and sustainment training, practice,
and experience. Some guys get the field experience thru hunting or OJT
before getting on the sniper rifle. Some guys learn the formal use of the
rifle in competition before learning or having to be taught field skills.
If there's lots of man-made stuff in your area, yes, you've got lots of familiar stuff to mil. If you're going to fight at home, you literally have the home court advantage. If you're a rapid-deployment team sniper, do you really have the dimensions of, say public street garbage cans like they have in downtown Hong Kong or Singapore? What are the dimensions of a Land Rover? Land Cruiser? Korean Bongo van?
If you are in the boonies, then what do you mil or range? Bad guys. Walking, laying, sitting, scratching their butts, sitting in vehicles, in the attack, in the defense, etc., etc. How to practice that? Exercises against simulated bad guys. Failing that, cattle (no guns), deer, coyotes, crows, prairie dogs. E-types give you bigger margin for error.
And the premier ranging instrument we had before the laser and mil-dots? Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball. What's your personal range finding +/- error? This goes hand-in-hand with the question on max effective range in FFP: what's your mission analysis say (back to METT-T)? Are you surrounded by good guys in support, or are you, your spotter, security, and commo guy the only human beings with English on your dogtags for 50 Kms? For 100 Kms?
John Plaster's book had a great quote in it, something about "Amateurs study drop tables and ballistics. Pros study winds." If the bad guy's standing up you've got the range from top of torso to just below waistline to hit -- based on your range estimation and your ability to dial and hold.
There is no single solution or magic answer between rifles, scopes, and calibers. The "Nut behind the butt" is the secret weapon.
"If it was easy, anybody could do it."
As for lasing, with more than two or three pairs ready to hammer a target, now you have six (or more) sets of eyeballs behind Mark 4s, B&Ls and spotting scopes. Let's say all of you have non-eyesafe lasers, and you don't know if the bad guys have passive NVGs. Old tanker's trick to confuse listeners as to how many vehicles you have and to keep spotters or snipers from getting retinae fried:
"Stand by to lase"
"Roger." All non-ranging guys come off of optics or look away.
"3-2-1-Lase."
Then everybody back to work.
Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:24:19 (ZULU)
(your host address: 66.26.19.122)
HEEEEEEEEELP!
AM IN DYER NEED OF AN AR-15 ARMORERS MANUAL. ANYONE KNOW WHERE I
CAN COME UP WITH ONE QUICKLY.
AM A NEWCOMER TO THIS SITE BUT, BUT NOT TO SNIPING AND PRECISION
SHOOTING. LOOKING FORWARD TO CONVERSING WITH ALL THE GREAT PEOPLE HERE.
THANKS
MARK
mark <sniper22398@yahoo.com>
poseyville, in, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:25:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.170.82.206)
On the USMC M40A3 - I found this link posted at The Firing Line. I
suppose most of the regulars here have already talked this out, but maybe
some of the new people may be interested. Here's the link:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-m40a3.html
The reviewer is one Patrick A. Rogers, USMC (ret.), who, in the discussion which you can find by following an obvious link on the page, seems to not have known what a Sendero was until someone told him. Even then it seems there's ignorance among some of those posting concening the VS and Sendero as names for particular models of Remington.
I'm new to bolt guns, but at least I know what Remington names their rifles and have tried to learn about the various cartridges a rifle can be chambered in. I hate slipshod minds. And I love to learn.
Doug McKay
Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Spring seems to be coming, to Minnesota, USA - Friday, January 05,
2001 at 03:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3)
MARK:
Re: AR15/M16 Manual
Check out AR15.com or Bushmaster.com They both have down loadable
.pdf documents that will help you out.
michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 04:04:03 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.192.208.6)
What fun we have been having with WIMs, mils vs laser, and actual shootting
vs range shooting.
WIMs we do not use them. We used to use them and found that they were at times a hinderance to the student learning the "complete sequ