January 2001

1. If brother Undude will be able to improve on an already perfect sling.

2. If brother Wess will achieve a 1" group at a thousand with the 6.5x284 project.

3. If brother Kevin (Andy's dad) will ever be known by just "Kevin" agian.

4. If brother PeteR's shoulder will be permamently damaged by the 300RUM.

5. If brother Gooch will ever settle down and stay in one place long enough to get a phone number and email address.

6. If brother 'Yote Bait' really could lay on his side and hit a cardboard box at a thousand looking into the sun with iron sights.

7. If brother Bravo's gas gun fetish will survive all the harassment.

8. If brother Ken will end up putting wheels on the 308 towed.

9. If brother Bowcher will ever answer his messages on instant messenger.

10. If brother Terry only has "Two shoes".

and last but not least (drum roll please)
Number 11. If brother 'Lito and his new girlfriend will tie the knot and hopefully buy a bigger motorcycle.

Seriously folks, its a joy and pleasure to be associated with all of you. HAPPY NEW YEAR AND MAY ALL YOUR BOOLITS FIND THE "X"!

Bolt out for the year! Going to lay back with Mr. Crown and Mr. Royal, a good cigar (an A. Fuente Gran Reserva), Fountain of Youth Face Dick Clark for the dropping of the ball, and just dare someone to wake me up before noon tomorrow.
Bolt aka REELDOC <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 00:26:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.52)

What was that .308 load again??? Speak a little louder for poor STANLEY! HE CAN'T HEAR TOO GOOD!!!!!

CAN YOU STANLEY!!!!!!!!!!!!?
 
 

Bolt,
TL - no - RFLMAO at you post! Had Mrs peteR laughing too, course there only one CRITICAL part of my anatomy she's concerned with......
The Wallet! *-:0
 
 

Once again you folks have a Safe and Happy New Years. I home for the evening with the missus and NO KIDS. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-Hah!
 

See ya next year!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 00:44:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.11)

I just got home from a nice dinner out with Andy's Mom and Andy's Sister. Andy is at a party with "Brittany".(BDA to follow)

It would seem that a new Buell Cyclone M2 for Andy's Dad is ok with Andy's Mom after all.

Ah, yes....it's going to be a good year.

Happy New Year everyone.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 00:46:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.25)

happy new year
tony
tony <kilmer@icehouse.net>
spokane, wa, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 00:51:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.203.52.203)

PeteR: Stanley? Even my Mama doesn't call me that when I'm in trouble! HA! Or are you talking about someone else? I've purchased my last pound of ANYTHING except Varget for the 308's, that's all for me! I'll shoot up what I have though, isn't it a sin to waste whisky and powder? LOL You know, she'd loose interest in that wallet if it was thin and limp, just send those credit cards to me, it'll help! REALLY! HA!

Good one Bolt! There's a couple of things I'd like to see, but they're political in nature, so I'll keep 'em to myself. Ah-NOOSE! Excuse me! I've been shooting these rifles for a long time, I don't think anything will change. Patron 'Lito will remarry before I quit shooting the M-25!

Jefe: I agree with your statements completely, but have to question why tracer wouldn't ignite flamables. Seemed to do fine on grass thatched hut roofs even in humid environments from helos. But what you say makes perfect sense. Besides, tracers don't fly all that well at range.

Sir Wes: That's some shooting! And what I'd do for those butts....

Patron Mike: a scope on a M-4?! You were hitting "better than the average bear" with it last time, no assist! Next thing I hear, you'll be taking it to competitions and comparing notes with Kevin of the North LOL. But bring the '14, mine gets lonely at those bolt gun events LOL. Hey, and how many strokes of the file is appropriate to hit the tips of 175 SMK's with to get good whatever? LOL

Master Rick: I thought it was stupid too. I've never felt the need to weld anything to anything on my rifles. Now, loctite is a different matter! I've had scope base bolts and screws (bolt guns and gas guns) come loose, and now I goop 'em as a matter of course. Never hurts!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, looking to downslide in the coming year, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 01:35:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.120)

DC8' Ya gonna make it next Sun?

How about you, Mike? I'll have my m1a with the BPT for you to drool over. LOL. Plus my new baby, the Rice gun.
And to whoever suggested that it was the load causing the stovepipes in my m1a; it was the same load that works so well in the RP and WW brass. Again, NO MORE FEDERALS JUMPIN' ON THE BED!!.
Oh, sorry. That's "MONKEYS". (Those w/ kiddies may understand)
That was supposed to be, "No more Feds for me".
Anyway, to all you Anal-Retentive Long Range Shooters (I knew I had a place in this world);
Have a safe and profitable new millenium. Hold hard, damnit!!
Semper-Fi!
Dennis B. Queen M/Sgt USMC (ret.)
(Spud)

Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
mer, ca, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 03:23:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.221.175)

Patron Mike: forgot to tell you. You sound like Geoff. You want a tactical rifle that's "more" than a 308? You build a 300 mag SEAL gun, no sweat! But I don't WANT a 300 mag ;-) I'm basically looking at the 6.5 Swede again, should do as much as a 260, but with "more". Dunno.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Glad to know someone still speaks "BATTLE RIFLE", USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 03:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.120)

Pete,

OK, for STANLEY's sake I'll repeat the load:
Caliber 7.62 X 51MM (That's .308 Winch, Stan!)
Brass: Lapua
Bullet: 175 Gr. Sierra Match King BTHP (OAL: 2.800")
Powder: 44.0 Gr. VARGET
Primer: Federal 210 Match
Loaded with Redding Precision Match Dies. Fired with a (AHEM) BOLT GUN!

Stan, did you pick up on the operative word here? Repeat after Pete: VARGET, VARGET, VARGET, VARGET,...OOOOMMMMMM...
Pete and Repeat, Pete and Repeat...

Geez Pete. When you throw out the towel you really throw it out. A 1" group at 1000 with the 6.5? You not only want tight, but you want a new National Record! OK, I'll try, but only because Bravo expects me to....

Buy the way 'lito. I'll be honored to usher at the wedding...!

Be safe...stay at home and reload or work on your rifles.

Me? I'm staying up 'till midnight and dumping a couple magazines from my full autos...THAT ought to really bring in the new year!

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 03:40:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.51)

Bravo - All too true, Loctite is what keeps things together, don't need no stinking welds!

Any rate last post of the millenium. It will be the 21st century tomorrow and who knows what will happen with the Y2K+1 bug!!!!

Stay sfe and have a real good safe evening!

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 04:02:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.189)

Sir Wes & sis have a happy new year

keep your powder dry

tony & linda
tony <kilmer@icehouse.net>
spokane, WA., USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 05:05:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.203.52.237)

Happy new years to all you guys and gals! What a great bunch of folks you are. May your days have no wind, but only when you start to squeeze. What is up to you! HA! All the best....
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, starting a new banana year, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 06:19:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.120)

Snipers in the Spanish-American War: I've got a friend who's got a Krag and wants to know about snipers in that war. Did we use snipers? Did they use the Krag? Scoped? Where could I locate info for him? He's not a computer kind of guy. I've got Adrian Gilbert's "Sniper" and he skips right over that war as if nothing significant happened with snipers. I read it about a year ago so I'm not positive of that, but skimming over it now it seems so. Neither the rifle nor the war is mentioned in the index.

Doug

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 06:47:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.101.253.232)

Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!

The very best to you all in this new year, and century.

I really appreciate your fellowship, and acceptance of wanderers of the boolet brigades.......

Thanks to all of you, I have learned a great deal here over the past ten months.

Most importantly, I have felt a kinship, and kindred spirit here, seldom found elsewhere.

For this I thank you, for your time I thank you, for your friendship I thank you the most.

May the Lord bless you all, and keep you, and may the light of HIS countenance shine upon you, and give you Peace.

God Bless us all, and America the country we dearly love..........
 

To a New Year mi amigo's,& mi amiga's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Aim small, shoot small".....................

First post of the REAL New Millenium.........for me.

Two Shoes
Iced in Tejas!!!!!
 
 
 

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 07:13:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.11)

Wes.
After reading some articles in Precision Shooting and the information I have read here I am also interested in the 6.5x284. How hard is the brass to obtain? Also how much is it compared to Match 308.

Allan
Allan <Falshooter42@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 07:13:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.177.93.5)

Bud <offah@hotmail.com>
Greens Fork , In., USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 07:28:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.106.153.62)

On the discussion over mass casualties (big boom) or taking out officers, etc with sniper fire, I remember in Adrian Gilbert's book Sniper an account from Italy I believe where a sniper/spotter team of US snipers hit a column of German infantry, a green unit marching to the front, and with the first pair of shots took out the officers, then the NCOs, and I think after 2 pairs of shots they let them go, seriously demoralized from losing their officers and an NCO or two from out-of-nowhere shots in a few seconds, and subsequently, farther down the road they were marching (several hundred yards at minimum) another pair of US snipers hit them..... I can bet those Germans didn't get to the front in a very coordinated fashion!
 

Far better than a mortar round or an explosion, in my opinion.

What do you think, guys?
Brian Fulton <blfulton45@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 08:17:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.131.100)

Last, but not least, Happy new year, from the west coast. Actually, i guess its gotta happen in hawaii still, but anyway, just wanted to sing out, and wish ya'll the best.

Looking foreward to another year of learning, so a very earned thank you, to all you that post on the board here. ('lito, Pete, Undude, Bravo, JEN, {that's GOOD JEN}, Andy's Team, and all the rest that i haven't mentioned.

I believe it has been said before, but "Gooch, get a residence, we are waiting".

Raise a glass.
 
 
 
 
 

Out...
Sean Thomas <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
wayyyyy up north, and out west...., b.c., Canada - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 08:57:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.206.5)

Don't let "Bud" discourage you from askin' questions!

As far as the "dangers" of LP goes... you can ship it through UPS, you can have 2000 pounds of it next to your house, and you can truck 20 tons of it on a residential street, so I'd say that was pretty "predictaule"

I have shot the cylinders (lookin for the "light"), and nothing happens, except it sprizzles out of the hole, freezing the cylinder, and coating it with ice..
It doesn't take much of a bullet to "punch" a cylinder... a .22 will do it.
As far as "Trasers" go, I don't know, I never owned one...
... but as far as "tracers" go, they just punch on through.

A few years back during a storm, a power pole fell over on a 1000 pound LP tank, and broke the valve off the top, and lighted it at the same time... the tank was 100 feet from Interstate 91.
The fire department didn't even divert the traffic... just sat back 50 feet and watched the biggest damn "Olympic" torch you ever saw... of course, the jack assed media was all over it like stink on poop, yelling "It's gonna' blow any minute"... and the whole state got to watch it burn on TV for 8 hours.

(It never blew... to bad, it woulda taken half the state's newscasters with it :(

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Mariuuuuuuuus! We need a speal chekur Reeeeeeel Baaaad!, in ed-ja-ma-ca-shun challenged, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 12:06:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.86)

*********************************************************************

I would like the thread on shooting explosive targets to cease.

Trying to create a BLEVE (Thats - Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion for those outside the trade) with a rifle is both ignorant and dangerous, not to mention the kind of thing that a certain number of government L-E organizations still under Slick Willys control are just chomping at the bit to "investigate" under some type of terrorist action justification.

Want to see that shit, rent a "Deadly Weapons" video or go to the lcoal fire hall and ask for a film to borrow. Conduct your pyromaniac /sexual "business" in the privacy of your armchair or bathroom. NOT HERE WITH THE REAL DEALS Oh-Tay?

**********************************************************************

I hope I have truly made myself clear on this topic and we now return you to Stanleys favorite show -
 
 

VARGET IN THE MORNING!
 
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SURVIVED ANOTHER ONE CITY, by-gawd, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 14:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.11)

Thanks,

Alan

Alan <akgideon@mindspring.com>
Bristow, VA, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 15:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.162.223)

To the newbie pyromaniac...

A bullet traversing a propane tank could be technically a BLEVE since the gas will boil off when depressurized.... but I wouldn't expect much of an explosion....

Explosions have more to do with the amount of oxygen available (at the molecular level).... propane is a relatively wimpy fuel (alkane) and it doesn't supply it's own oxygen.

Here is subtle hint...

DON'T PLAY WITH POTENTIAL EXPLOSIVES (EVEN WIMPY ONES) ...YOU'LL SHOOT YOUR EYE OUT...

OH, OOOPS, I MEAN, YOU'LL GET HURT.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 16:11:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Gas Man; When this ole yote bait gets close to 1 moa with a peep sight he don't try to get it better. Seriously that thing shoots good for what it's made of. It's at least twice as good as any other m1 I ever had. I'll take your bedding idea to the guy that built it up though. He might want to try it. I wouldn't have the slightest idea where to bed a Garrand though, I'll have to get some dope on it somewhere.

Single shot sniper rifles: not to be too redundant I hope but The most accurate single shots I've tried still are a little lacking. I don't think the Encore is your answer at all. Although the falling blocks like the Martini, Remington, and Sharps, I should also mention the Winchester hi and low wall's were good rifles they never quite could measure up to the bolt rifles of the early 1900's. If you want accuracy in a single shot probably the 40X Remington wins hands down for all time. While a lot of 1903 Springfield Snipers were said to load single shot with the magazine cut off on, the fact that a rifle is sinle shot of not has nothing to do with the ability to shoot accurately and in most cases is detremental due to the actions employed. Hope nobody calls me on the "Free Rifles" that shot slow loads with grea precision over relativly short distances. There the accuracy was in loading method more than rifle type or so is my opinion. with the Sniper rifles of the Teddy Rosevelt era aren't documented too well. I think if they were used it was pretty quiet. Krag's may have been scoped bu it's a hell of a chore and I can't find much history on it. Rosevelt himself was a Cavalry man and favored that type of weapon although he hunted a lot in the west with the 1896 Winchester or so it's documented in some of his papers.
Sorrry for the long post but it's too damn foggy out to shoot long range.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 16:54:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

You are right on. The military has a standard list of priority targets and leaders, crew served weapons, radio men as well as other snipers (the #1 priority) are all on it.

Simply put, thats exactly the basic type of thing we are supposed to do.

Of course the list is frequently adapted to the situation/mission, but thats a simple guideline.

And just think back to your example of a green unit going to the front without its leaders.

Can you imagine how many American lives were saved by those two shots?

Like I said in my previous post, it's not all about numbers by any means.
 

Jefe <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 16:56:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.54.103)

Thanks in advance,

jayman
Jayman <jayman@pldi.net>
Western OK, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 17:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.144.151.137)

Wild Bill: I'm with you on the single shots. The Ruger and the Contender were letdowns, but I haven't tried anything else. On the Garand, bedding will help lots, and not affect it's function in any shape fashion or form. But it's a pain. As I understand it, not like doing a bolt gun at all. Wouldn't know personally, I've always been of the mind that I won't try to do a professionals job and muck it up.

Partner Jim and PeteR: thanks for doing that, I would have if you hadn't. What some folks don't understand about that O2. Oh, and PeteR, whadda I gotta do to get you to quit that Stanley business? Makes me feel like I've been "caught" with a girlfriend when I hear that! HA! Besides, tracers don't fly too well. I'd play that game (walk the tracers) with a SAW or something, but not a sniper rifle. Besides, I thought it was bad form to start range fires!

Patron 'Lito: the big problem with taking out half the states newscasters is that you leave half of them. Guess it's something like that half full / half empty glass of water thing. Except I see a half glass of water as a potential weapon if I need it, and half of the states newscasters as a legitimate propaganda weapon of the sociocommunists. BAH!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
wondering about all those yankees in time sqare, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 19:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.136)

But if you take a Ruger #1, Browning #78 or #85, and float the barrel, you can have a gun that will hold 5/8" to 3/4" all day.
There are matches for "Old Tyme" rifles and they can be amazing.
I have two Ruger #1'z (.218 Bee, and .22 Hornet), and a Browning #78 (6mm Rem), that are all "Minute of Crow" to 350-400 yds.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 19:28:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.81)

There are plenty of porn sites on the net for perverts to get their
rocks off with.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 19:46:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.174)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 19:55:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.81)

The reticles (graticules?) in the IOR 7X40 binos look just like the ones in my Swarovski scope sight. Should I spend my spotting scope nest-egg on a pair of these IOR's? I can still get a cheapo spotting scope, but I can't put up with the eye-strain of using it to glass for targets. Which comes first - good binos or a good spotting scope?
 

Earl North < Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
K.C., MO., USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 20:55:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 163.185.237.247)

Premier still has the 12x40 zoom spotting scopes, just not the little 25x fixed power.

The mil "lines" in a pair of bins, are ok for finding your way around a field, and spotting for arty, but not fine enough to range small tarets, like "E"s and "Dog's", or "Iron Maidens"...

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lit my propane torch... don't look too sexy to me???... no wonder I got such a lousy sex life ;(( in the, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 21:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.76)

Have the same problem myself with what to get but, a couple of weeks ago we had a lot of good info on optics. It basically boiled down to the following if I remember correctly:

1. An 8x30 was plenty good enough for stalking work, followed by the 7x40 and the 10x40.

2. Not many of the pros can even hand hold binos well enough to range with them so I have discounted the ranging binos.

3. The little 25 Lupita with the mils was the ticket for spotters followed by the 12-40x60 with the mils. I have the 12-40x60 with mils and really like it. I still haven't found a tripod that is worth a hoot and won't fold up at a bad time. You may can still find a 25 on EBAY if you keep up with it.

4. The IR models distort the colors and really bothers some folks.

My next optic purchase will be either the 8x30 or 7x40 IOR binos from Scott on the PX. I may get the 10x50's also a little later.
 

Optically challenged Bolt, out!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 21:48:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.225)

After all the advice and warnings you gave me about the possibility of my Rem 700 PSS maybe being one of the "unfortunate" ones to come out with a bad chamber and rifling and therefore needing mucho corrective action, I just wanted to let you know that I was one of the "fortunate" ones.

It appears that my chamber and rifling are OK afterall. I have put through 120 rounds over the past several weeks and everything looks to be good to go - at least at 100 yards. Later this month I'll be shooting at the Sheriff's practice range and will get to try her at 300 yards.

Thanks for your "heads up" and I'm glad to be in the "fortunate" column!

Moe

BTW - somebody mentioned a test for proper barrel bedding (I think) was to see if you could pass a business card between the barrel and the stock. I managed to slip three stacked business cards under the barrel from the front of the stock back to the chamber. Exactly what is this telling me?

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 22:25:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.27)

That's normal for a PSS (or M24's, Stealths, or other guns in the H-S stocks).

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 22:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.76)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 22:47:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 01, 2001 at 23:01:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.76)

Time for me to come clean with you all and bare my soul...

Here goes: Can't remember when I've enjoyed a group of like minded individuals more. You all contribute, cajole, pose questions, and stretch the limits of what we know and do...

Congratulations to you all!

Now, I'll put my "sensitive side" away. With luck, you'll never see it again.

Bino's...can't vouch for a lot of brands. I have a set of Bushnell Rubber Armored compacts in 10x25 and a set of Nikon's lightweights in 6x30. Both are useful, but not what I really want.
The USMC had/has armored binocs with mil radians in them for artillery spotting, etc. Optics are pretty good, but not top notch. Believe they were 10x50's and made in Japan, but I can't remember the maker. It wasn't Nikon. Somebody want to fill in the missing info...it's 2001 and I've been afflicted with CRS(can't remember shit).

Best Bino's. One of my neighbors has two sets of Zeiss binos. One is a 10x50 and the others 7xsomething. The optics are incredible! Colors are true, but where they REALLY perform is the ability to distinguish targets from background. Especially during dim light conditions. Should I ever get rich, or sell of excess inventory in the armory I'd look REAL HARD at Zeiss. For now I'll live with what I've got. Buy the way, be prepared for sticker shock!

Would like to see the IOR line. Aren't these "East German" manufacture?

Bravo, you order the Varget yet?

Pete, we being a little rough on the lad? After all, he is ONLY a "gas gunner" and allowances must be made!

Semper Fi,

Wes
The sensitive...Obviously been working at Hewlett-Packard to long.
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 00:31:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.5) 

Thanx in advance Duster

PS: the Steyr SSG Style bolt knobs by George Gardner are the cat's ass!
Duster <mcgrath@tc3net.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 00:53:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.91.142.136) 

Save the extra money and spend it on ammo! The AICS stock is interesting, but noisy and awkward for me. Read the review of this stock in the "Review" section. One of the Kevins wrote his perspective on it. Just my two cents, but I just prefer the McMillian. I have 5 of them!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:08:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6) 

Sta, ugh - I mean BRAVO, can take it. I just tease him a little cuz he is more stubboner than most. You have made great inroads with him and conversion to - GASP - a manual turn bolt action.

Varget & Kimbers and Bolt Guns Oh MY!

Varget & Kimbers and Bolt Guns Oh MY!

Varget & Kimbers and Bolt Guns Oh MY!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:16:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.187) 

"To show what perfection has been attained, it will suffice to instance highest possible scores - all bullets striking a 36-inch bull's-eye at 1000 yards - Mr. Gibb's record of 37 successive bull's-eyes at this range, and the late Sir Henry Halford's 18 out of 20 shots into a 12-foot by 9-foot target at 2000 yards. Such shooting represents what the best match, or long-range target, rifle is capable of accomplishing. It is a magnificent result, and the more one knows of rifles and ammunition and the way in which motion is imparted to the projectile, the more astonishing does such accuracy appear." page 97.

Later he says of Mr. Gibb's: "The best authenticated score, though not made in competition, is that of Captain Gibbs, who, in fifty consecutive shots at 1000 yards, scored 248 out of a possible 250, including one series of 37 consecutive bull's-eyes." page 120

The book is published by Wolfe Publishing, ISBN 1-879356-40-6

Original publication was in 1900.

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:40:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.252.230) 

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:45:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.252.230) 

PeteR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever LOL. Hey, I might be stubborn, but you'd be surprised about the first hand info I can give out on what DOES NOT work! HA! Hey, even a broken watch is right twice a day!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, supplying free school lunches to the globe, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 01:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.235) 

PS- I still like my Steiners..........
Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 02:02:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27) 

Bravo, I hear you on the "recover" from the Holidays thing. I'm in the same mode. Probably be March or April when I get ahead enough to buy in bulk. Until then I have enough powder to keep me going. Still have 8lbs. of 2520 I can always fall back to...ptuii!

Pete, OK, Bravo "can take it". Still he is making great progress from his "gas gun" impairment. Some serious therapy, counseling, and hands on time should convert the heathen. I've tried to answer his questions honestly and help him through the process. He's almost there...with some luck and training we may even get him out of the "spotter mindset" and into the "shooter" one.

Kimbers...? Great guns. More importantly, they've force other manufacturers to follow suit.

Still, I'll stick with my custom Stainless Commander and Les Baer guns. The G36 for my deep conealment piece.
In 9mm, it's my Cylinder and Slide Hi-Power and in .40 my Glock 23. Ain't having choices great!

Semper Fi,

Wes
The persuasive...
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 02:18:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.63) 

Doug - Have never seen anything written on official sniper activity during the Spanish American War. HOWEVER, as you know the American soldier is a very resourceful individual. My bet is that there were those that brought their own equipment and used it anyway. Again have not read about it but there has been a history of soldiers doing that in all conflicts.

Jen - My vote is on the 12 x 40 loopie with mil dots, they are not cheap. They are great and go down far enough for close work and up enough for ID work. The dot spacings are equal to 1 mil through out the zoom and the glass is really good on the examples that we use. As far as scope versus binos I would go with a good scope and a cheaper pair of binos. Binos are for a quick psot then a chnage ove to scope to see what you spotted. The spotting scope will also give you your mirage read for wind and if you have an observer a trace read for correction when necessary. What binos do I use, I don't, I have a pair of Leica laser range finders that is the best glass I have ever encountered. They are not the cheap range finders but the really good ones that Uncle Sugar got me, er the military, er whatever.

Guys have fun and play nice. Porn site?

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 03:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.107) 

Pyromaniacs get a form of sexual gratification from the fires they start. Arsonists have been known to stay within visual range of their handiwork and, er, do some handiwork on themselves while watching it burn. I guess it's cheaper than paying for late-night cable...

Roger
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Cold and getting colder in Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 03:13:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.160.1.144) 

Rick, could you have Drue give me a call? If he can't move that stuff among instructors or students I'll post on the "Emporium" board. It's a bunch of take-off stuff from Remingtons past: a darned near new cammy McMillan A3 with rail and 3-way butt plate; all the stuff to hang a Harris bipod; a handstop; two-piece Winchester 70 steel trigger guard and floorplate (Marine Corps style -- never tell a Marine gunsmith you want a steel trigger guard without specifying I WANT A 1-PIECE BADGER, MORON); Tubb lug; a Jewell trigger. Anyone interested?

I watched "Wallace and Gromit: A Close Shave," the clay-mation animated feature with my 4-year old. I couldn't help thinking about that photo of 'Lito and his Falklands War Bride and couldn't stop giggling. You gotta see this thing after a couple of brews.

Bravo thinking of a bolt and Mike thinking of shooting his M14? What the heck else is going to happen? Next thing you know dogs and cats will be sleeping with each other!

Jim Mitchell, how are those AR-10s coming along? Inquiring minds REALLY want to know!

As for the binos and the Zeiss comments Wes, I think you're right -- you can't hit what you can't see. Wish I was independently wealthy. My old Navy 7x50s M17A1s are nice, but HEAVY.

Three weeks to Vegas and snagging that Winchester 70 Target!

Paraphrasing James Coburn's character in "Hudson Hawk":
"God, I miss Communism." What we need is a Low Intensity Conflict in a high per diem area.

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 04:16:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.26.131) 

Looking to get the Sinclair B/R Rest @ $220. After that I'll get a good spotting scope.

Why do you think Plaster has the sniper rifle in his first video (I haven't seen the others) topped with a 16 power scope? Doesn't the Military use 10x as an upper limit? And Urban use would certainly not be as high as 16x either. When would a sniper use 16x with a .308?

Any thoughts on the Winchester .300 WSM in comparison to the .300 Win Mag? Think Remington will chamber the VS and PSS for it?

As I said before, I've never been in the Military, but everyone knows from watching Cowboy and Indian movies that you shoot the Chief and all the other Indians retreat! Take out officers and the guys maning the big guns first. Cut off the head, the body will lose its sense of direction.

Aaah the armchair. Makes everything so damn simple.

Doug McKay
Relaxing with a bit of Wild Turkey

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 04:48:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.252.230) 

Master Rick: Houah! I sent something off tonight on the bino / spotter that I've learned, and it almost perfectly mimicked what you said. The big difference is that I've been forced to shell out the dough for my failed experiments LOL. Now, why does it always tend to go that way?

Now, would someone who's a real master on, and has worked it over to know it well, drop me a line about the 260? Thanks!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 05:07:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.169) 

Anyone else thought of going? The last three days of the (two weeks for high power rifles) National Matches are the long range matches (first day is 800, 900, and 1,000 yards, typically with an iron sight rifle or service rifle; second day is with any rifle / any sight, i.e. scopes, or a service rifle [both first and second day start in the morning as individual matches and four-man teams in the afternoon]; and the Palma on the third day (any iron sight .308).

The first day is unlimited sighters at 800 yards, but you only get 30 minutes to shoot all your sighters and 20 rounds for score. And all your sighters are shot "Up front," meaning once you say, "This is mny first shot for record," they all count after that.

It's shot all in the prone, so you "Old" guys have nothing to complain about. Match rifle (as opposed to service rifle) rules say you can use mike Miller's Tac sling.

Think about it guys! If it shoots (minus the .50 cals) there's usually a factory rep or custom gunsmith there, and Commercial Row has EVERYTHING you need at near wholesale prices (you can go broke there saving money). The hot tip is to get there during "DCM" week when the merchants have all their stuff right off the truck (a lot of them pack up at the end of "NRA" week since only a few stay for the long range matches).

Just a thought. I know some guys save up that leave or vacation time for Storm Mountains September festivities.

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 05:13:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.26.131) 

Plus, I think someone told me they have coyotes there. :)

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 05:22:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.26.131) 

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 07:23:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.130.240) 

Anybody know where I can get a CFP 90 pack that won't cost me an arm and a leg?

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 14:59:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.83.118.152) 

Pyromania??? Now I undertand why there's a bunch of guys in trench coats, hangin' around the Prest-o-lite display at our Home Depot ;).

I'm not sure how shooting at incendiary targets, came around to being a building burning prevert, but youse guys can have it :((

"Sinister"!!! You gotta cut me some rhythm here...

I ain't seeing the "Falklands Hunny" no more... her father said If I "wanted any", I'd have to fix the tyres on his house first (all four of them were flat!)... hell, she was real ugly (as in ooooogly!!), and wasn't worth it, so I told him to call the helper at the gas station, and have him over to fix his damn house... turns out that the gas station helper is her brother, AND her "ex" husband... so I'm done with them ;((
And no need to worry about Bravo... he'll be a "die hard M14/M25" guy for a LOOoooooong time!

On Mil bins...
The Tabasco 7x50 Marine bins are real nice (I wish they could do as well on their scopes)... and when you look at them in the store, they look real good. There's a nice compass, and a graticule, and a built-in range finding computer on the front of the objective... looks like the real deal... but the hash marks are in "Degrees" (like in boating), not mils, so pass them by if you're lookin for mils (I got the tee shirt :(.
Too bad they couldn't make them in mils.

However, the Steiners (and IOR) are in MILS, so throw your money at the Steiners or IOR's.
I have a pair of the M-22's with pink laser filters, and they are real nice (see the world through rose colored glasses;)... and a pair of the 15x80's with the compass and mil reticle... blindingly sharp, and about half the weight of (and sharper than) the 15x80 Celestrons... Good bins are worth saving your money for (but that applies to everything, including women!!)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lookin for a new hunny, someone less "sheepish"!... in the, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 15:19:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.83) 

Yote Bait,
A Shepard?? Really?? Been there done that. Would work great for hunting,damn fast but only good to around 600yds with the range finding, circles are to close in size after that. The only problem I had with them was the damn eye relief was to short and the 300 would hit me in the nose when I shot prone.

Dave,
You might want to give the VV-N140 a go with the 175s,it shot like a dream with my 168s in my Hart barrled 308. I haven't tried any of the 135 yet because the Varget does so well across the board but it still won't compare to the 4064 at 100 and 200yds.

UnDude,
You were right on the 260 but the bullet that it matches in the 300WM is the 220MK not the 190s. The 140 VLDs have the same BCs as the 220MKs and the data is identical all the way to 1000yds. The also have more retained energy than the 308 168gr at 1000yd leaving at 2800fps. I don't know about the 175s but would bet it would be close or maybe even better,the 6.5s really fly!!!

Reloader series is really a good powder. I have used it in my magnums and tried it in the 6.5x284 and no other powder came close to it for velocity. The accuracy was also outstanding. It would be my second choice of a good all around powder.

Jim,
You may want to try the 140AMAXs in your rifle they shot tighter in mine all the way to 1000yds. The 142s did better at 100 to 300 but tended to open up a little more than the 140s did.I have found this to be true with the 260 also. The 6.5x284 shot around .5 at 100 with the 140AMAX and .3s with the 142s but then stayed close to the .5 MOA all the way to 1000yds with the AMAXs.

lito'
Congrats on your engagment!!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 17:34:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130) 

The Rem 700 BS, and the Rem 700 PSS are the same rifle, just different stocks. Go to Brownells for a new black "PSS" stock, of look on the Sniper Country "Emporium" and look for a "Take off" from somebody who's upgrading to some other stock.

Pat...
I AIN'T ENGAUGED!!!
She's a bum, and Uuuuugly too, plus she's broke, and her daddy lives in a house with 4 flat tyres, and her brother is her "EX" husband... so CUT ME SOME SLACK!!!
Boltster, you are in D-E-E-E-E-E-P T-R-O-U-B-L-E

'yote Bate...
You left too much space for me to tell you what I know about women... I only need 4 spaces... NADA ;)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I'm gonna skulk off to my hide... I give up on women critters, in the North East, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 17:45:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.17) 

1. Does anyone know the "proper" way to cut down a McBros A-4 Stock to reduce LOP an inch? I would imagine, remove the recoil pad, cut ugly black fiberglass (whateveritis) desired amount, reinstall recoil pad. However, having not fooled with their stocks before, I though I'd try some smart people, for opinions. Yes I did email McMillan, they haven't replied yet, and my band saw is running . . .

2. I have a Savage 110FP. The forend wiggles and moves, it's basicly unstable. The left side is almost touching barrel, while a larger gap exists or right side. I have heard some discussion on this problem with savages. I don't think action area is out of line. I'm thinking of inletting an aluminum I-beam or flat into the action to barrel area. Anyone ever try something like that to stabalize a stock?

Carl Marshall <cbmarshal@aol.com>
Wileford , WV, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 17:49:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.196.96.213) 

Two Shoes
Still Cold in Big "D".
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 19:17:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.39) 

What a fricking ice storm!

I sat in the living room Christmas night and listend to the trees snap off around the house. Sounded like a thunder storm. Kept on for a full day. I was out hacking on a cedar tree that was leaning on the houses power cable and all hell broke loose. Tree snapped, cable flew, what a party. Had a 10" limb let go and drop on the roof, I thought the thing was going to break through but this old house held up.

Kids got a good lesson on how lucky they are. Power went out Christmas Night and we just got it back this morning. Read my lips...

Electric heat SUCKS. Propane baby.

Anyway, my hats off to any of you jokers that are utilities guys, saved our asses. Talked to a guy yesterday from Alabama who was up here fixin lines driving a truck from a company in North Carolina.

Happy Frickin New Years!!!

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 19:43:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.102.45.22) 

I got my Harris S-BRM, Tanks Speedy Knobby, and Kleinendorst Bolt Disassembly and Firing Pin Tools. Now all I need now is my Un-Dude Sling, Pod-Loc, Badger Rings/Base and My Leupold Scope (Un-Dude, I'll be calling you ;).. The Bolt Disassembly tool I am sure will save me hours of swearing up a storm, pinching fingers, and having the bolt flying across the room.

Now, I have a question for you regarding Wolff Blitzschnell springs. I was told that these could help over the standard factory springs, but how so? And what load rating would work best in a PSS? Do these even make a difference?

Ok, one more question.. The Kleinendorst Firing Pin tool.. how exactly do you use it to get the spring off? Figure it's best to know what I'm going to be breaking before I break it ;) I am assuming that you screw in the firing pin assembly then crank the bolt down over the firing pin until the spring is completely compressed and you can remove the cross pin at the back of the assembly (it appears as you crank the big bolt in, compressing the spring) then uncrank the bolt and remove everything...

Love how this stuff comes with instructions.. you could really hurt yourself with that spring.. or even worse, a firing pin to the head.

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Waiting for my Leupold to arrive.., Impatient, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 21:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.69) 

After pin is out, slowly back off hex head bolt and then unscrew bolt shroud. While you have the firing pin out, polish the body (NOT THE TIP!!) with some 400 and 600 paper followed by Blue Magic or Flitz. Reduces friction and corrosion. Chamfer the ends of the cross pin so it will go back in easier. Pad your work surface with leather or you will mar the surface of your bolt shroud. (Gee Bill, how do you know that!??)

Most of us replace 24 pound factory spring with 28 pound Wolffe spring to decrease lock time. Wolffe makes a 32 pounder but its a bit rough on the cocking surfaces. I recommend that you don't mess with it until you are ready to do the job. (One time removal and replacement.)

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 22:21:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.246.62) 

Wish 'ya coulda posted that info a coupla days ago. Doh!! :-0 Just got finished whacking mine all to hell and back. (The bolt and firing pin assembly, guys!!) Oh, well, it's only a 700-ADL, it's a pig and that's what it's there for. :-)

I found that the Kleinendorst Bolt Disassembly and Firing Pin Tools don't need any external mechanical help, I did everything finger tightening without other tools, but I wasn't trying to install a stronger spring. Results may vary.

Wes Howe,
Thank you for your help and advice, it is much appreciated. You haven't been working for HP too long, you're just a good man in a whacky environment.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Learning the hard way, in the, USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 23:11:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2) 

Jen...
I'm still on hold with the people at Barrett... ;-)

Keep on Blazin,
Ben
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 02, 2001 at 23:41:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.166.90) 

MP <fwebel@casema.net>
the Hague, NL - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 00:06:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.96.98.222) 

Tanks

Doug

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Not at home right now, , in Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 00:18:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3) 

So many things to buy when getting into bolt guns! I love it.

Doug

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 00:45:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3) 

Jen, Forgot a few things. After you reinstall the spring and pin, the spring assembly needs to be lubricated with grease. I use Lubriplate. Slather it on the coils and then wipe it off with your fingers, leaving a fair amount inside the spring coils. You should be able to see the metal of the coils after lube job.

Then, get a stiff bottle brush and scrub the inside of the bolt out. You will not believe the crap that comes out of it... manufacturing residue, rust flakes, green copper chunks from brass, carbon, etc. If you can figure out how to polish the interior of the bolt, that helps also. Brownells actually sells a bolt brush. Rinse with paint thinner or lacquer thinner. Be aware that these solvents remove lubrication in the metal pores so relube afterwards. Wet with oil, let stand for a few minutes, wipe off excess.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 00:59:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.246.62) 

Cordell <cordell.45@juno.com>
Utah, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 01:28:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.126.160.10) 

The speed knob replaces the "use a quarter" bolt that attaches the Harris bipod. I have used one for awhile now and it gets/stays pretty tight.

TR <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:15:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.207) 

Hope this helps =)
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:46:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.69) 

A while back someone asked for more information on the RAMO systems rifles. Here is an update after a few phone calls. New buyers listen up because these guys may well possess the most economical and military capable .50 caliber in manufacture today.

A fine rifle builder by the name of Earl Reddick started working for RAMO a few months back. Earl Reddick is one of the pioneers of .50 caliber rifles and build one of the first .338/.416 rifles (.338 Lapua) in the US. It's possible that Earl is responsible for the cartridge taking hold at least in the military communities. Earl also built the first rifle using a Remington M700 long action mildly modified to allow the bolt to stroke farther allowing the long cartridge clean ejection from the action.

Earl co-designed the early M500 Haskins rifle, worked for Daisy when they made the M600 in .50 caliber US, 12.7 Soviet, and 14.5 Soviet. He also soley designed and built the M602 .338/.416 rifle. He now works for RAMO and they have picked up his design the M600 and the M650. Price quote for the two rifles is between $1800 and $3800 depending on how they are setup. I imagine this is without optics prices. Here are some particulars:

http://www.ramo.com/600.htm

http://www.ramo.com/650.htm

M600 is the single shot. It is a shell holder design that keeps the OAL of the action the shortest possible. The rifle's weight is 23 lbs. making it the lightest .50 caliber in it's class, that being military capable tactical rifle. The stock is adjustable for length of pull. Barrell length is 32 inches.

M650 is a magazine feeder. The magazine is a revolutionary rotary design similar to the Steyr design, but far superior and stonger. The magazine holds 7 rounds. Rifle weight is 29.8 lbs. Barrel length is 30 inches. Extra OAL is attributed to the action design allowing a repeating bold mode of operation.

Am going to meet with RAMO at the shotshow next week. Will try to obtain for an evaluation and keep you posted. This rifle is the bright spot on the horizon. I have shot all of Earl's designs and with the exception of the Windrunner, is ahead of it's time, when it was designed in the early 80s.

Trigger50 <triggerfifty@specialoperations.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:47:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.197.160) 

I've been wanting to mention this: Does everyone know that Gale McMillan used to post at http://www.thefiringline.com ? I've just discovered the site recently. There's a lot of good rifle info there, at least for a bolt gun beginner like me. Do a search on Gale McMillan (if I've spelled his name right) to find the threads he posted in.

Doug McKay

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:52:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3) 

Doug

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:56:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3) 

If you read the archives for the last few years, you will find that Fed brass has "fallen from grace", and is low on the list of prefered brass. This was discussed in the last few weeks (again!).
Top choices are Lapua, Norma, Winchester, Lake city... maybe one or two others.

>>"I have been on other sites and there chat boards are just a bunch of 5 year olds fighting with one another."<<
Don't get your hopes up... we scrap with eachother all the time. But we also shoot, drink, and chase sheep with each other, too! ;)

Kleinendorsttools (and other M700 bolt tools)...
Sinclair has two M700 bolt tools... one for compressing the spring, and removing the firing pin unit from the body (I can't do the shoe lace thing... loafers!!)... and the other to remove the the pin/spring from the shroud... good tools (what else would expect from Sinclair).

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Peekin' outta my hide, lookin for ewe know what ;)) in the "x" rated, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 02:58:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.126) 

Bill Bell, the laminated stock is plenty stable (what with all the layers of wood and glue). You might want to glass-bed the action if you think it needs it, but otherwise put the money you will otherwise spend on an H-S stock into ammo and maybe a trigger job, or into a good scope, rings, and mount. If you absolutely have to have a "High-speed / low drag" sniper rifle before you can shoot to its off-the-rack potential (probably under an inch at a hundred yards) spray paint it camouflage and everyone will admire it while you start banging away and getting trigger time.

Feldwebel MP, welcome back. Are there any more of those PSG-1s cluttering up the dealer's shop at that price? Mount the B&L, you'll be very, VERY happy (you LUCKY dog!). It's a heavy toy, but very much worth what you paid for it (they want way too much for them here in the states -- I've bought cars for less).

We mounted Leupold M3s, and some of the fellas we exercised with overseas had nice 12X Leupold fixed powers on theirs. 800 meters, no sweat (easy shot). Saw best accuracy with Lapua. My company master sniper saw some PSG-1 guys get beat out by SVD snipers (it's the nut behind the butt, not the toys).

Rick, you guys work the PSG at school?

Torsten and Stefan, you guys have been too quiet of late -- Wie gehts?
(T, will try to get the SGM's contact data for you...he should be back soon).

Dang Jen, you get all those toys together quick! The suspense is killing us.

Uh, guys? Terry Gander in Jane's insists on standing ground on reticles and graticules. I'm not English (though I like them) but it annoys me. I'm not sure he even shoots. How 'bout "Them line things with the dots on 'em"?

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 03:17:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.26.131) 

Lito - Do you get the blazing headaches that I get from those "rose colored" disasters? Also have you noticed a lowered ability to observe into shadows and at dusk with them? Of course the forward signature is a joy to behold when you get that lovely rose reflection off of the lens. Of course placing a veil or other relection reducing apparatus in front of the lens only lowers the light transmitance more. Have you guessed I am less then excited with them? Engaged huh?

Gooch - Think warm, feel the force. Happy New year! Keep the chainsaws running. :-)

Have fun all, you too DDashboard.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 03:35:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.23) 

NOW I'm out of here.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 03:50:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.23) 

Just posted a list of weapons for sale on emporium. You might want to take a look. Some interesting stuff there. Giving you first crack at it until Saturday.

Sorry, Jen, I'm NOT selling may Aussie L1A1...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 04:01:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.211) 

That's quite a list you've got up on the block! Wouldn't happen to have an ol' S&W Hand Ejector 2nd Model in .45 Auto Rim (.45 ACP with moonclips), would ya? (Only old S&W anymore!)

"Sky won't snow and the sun won't shine" is what we've been getting here, mostly.... it's cold, dreary, blustery... I don't mind it if there's enough snow to make it pretty or play in, but cold w/o snow, or worse w/ ice, I'll let Texas have it.... (just for you 2-shoes!)

Still hunting for a cheap action, if I can find a local one to pick up I'll be happy... and off-season for gunsmiths is coming, too...

Gotta go back to work tomorrow, it's been nice being off for several days, but it'll be hard rolling out of the rack in the morning, that's for sure. Ah well....

L8R,

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 05:00:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.124) 

Doug

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
It's warm here, in Minnesota, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 05:21:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3) 

Daniel Hotte: Listen to Bill about the .338. Moose ain't prarie-dogs so the last 1/2 minute of angle isn't worth much. You want to put them down RIGHT NOW. That's a job for a large bullet at a moderate velocity. Think 250 grain Noslers. There's something very satisfying about center-shooting large animals with that bullet. There's minimal meat loss. You can eat right up to the bullet hole. The 7mm is much messier. The 'Boss' adds barrel length. That's awkward in the alders.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 05:52:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13) 

Just like I said I was going to do, last week I did the OD Green Teflon/Moly finish over the parkarized finish of my Remington 870 Police. Cleaning the exterior of the gun down will be a very simple ordeal from now on, even easier than cleaning the surface of regular parkarizing. I left the area under the forearm for a future coating because I simply forgot to do it at the time. The gun is kinda interesting looking with wood stocks with mixed black and green parts. Take a look over on my site if you're interested, the darn scanner made the wood stocks of the 870 appear to be much more "red" than they actually are in real life.

I got the 870 just in time as there is a 3gun match coming up at the end of this month.

Do a cut and paste for the 870 if you wanna just see those pics because I have an opening sound file for the main page that might make the page slow for dialup users, http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/870P.html

Also I put a picture of a darn big and darn mean gopher snake up on my site. This 7ft long gopher snake was caught out in the hills during a trail run. One of the more impressive snakes I've ever come in contact with, I haven't gotten to play with any rattlesnakes yet so till then this one is the big prize taker. Snake pics are here, http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/snake.html
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
I'd swear that I have a love affair with the color OD Green, Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 06:12:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203) 

Emporium has an ITT 6015 3rd gen. monocular at a super price. Hard to find, now restricted to LE and can't be exported without State Dept. Permit. Outstanding when mounted behind Aimpoint Comp M XD sight.

I have no connection with the seller, just wanted to alert all of you looking for NV that here is the ultimate. Just ask the Undude how this device works.

Hear me, Bill? This is why God made credit cards.

Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 07:54:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.101) 

Ruger Super Redhawk (SS), .44 Mag, 7.5" bbl, Leupold 2X scope.
240 gr. Hornady XTP, 23.9 gr. IMR 4227, CCI 350 primer (warning! compressed charge).
Six shots, w/0.91 max spread, at 25 yards.

There are, in reality, two three-shot groups, as I made a slight scope adjustment after the first three shots.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 16:57:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112) 

Happy New Year to you all, albeit a little bit late. May this year be better than the best of the past.

Thanks to Ken for standing in while I was away.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, January 03, 2001 at 19:32:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.215)

There is nothing really wrong with the Springfield scopes for casual shooting. They are made by Hakko in Japan (or were). They do not possess the hardiness/toughness of the Leupold Mark 4 series or the variable derivatives. Also, the odd 56mm objective size is a pain to mount correctly without antics to establish a good cheek weld.

On PSS tune-ups, go through the archives. We were just discussing this a few weeks ago. Discussions primarily centered around correcting deficiencies in stock. Very easy to accomplish at home. Not addressed were barrel set-back and rechambering to regain throat length, relugging with heavy lug and recrowning. Next step up, trash barrel, clean up action and screw on a Hart 10 twist tube. Then start punching one holers with your custom reloads. You are planning to reload... aren't you? We will happily help you spend your money.
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, Its too Cold FL, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 02:24:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.246.62)

Just wanted to send a note of thanks to George Gardner of GA Precision. I sent George a PSS Action and AICS series I stock and what he sent back was a masterpiece. I've included a link to photos of the rifle. I broke it in with 60 rounds of Black hills moly 168 gr HPBT using JB paste and Kroil for cleaning during the break in. I then shot 4 groups of 5 rounds for accuracy at 100 yards. The group sizes ranged from .25" to .38" c-t-c with a crosswind of 10-15 mph. I've owned the Tango-51 by Tactical Operations and the AWC M40A1, this is by far the best rifle. Yes, this is an unsolicited endorsement, but I just wanted you guys to know that GA Precision and George Gardner turns out great rifles.
Ken <hadesze0@pacbell.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 02:39:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.203.153.52)

Thought I'd do a post in my continuing saga of .308 vs 6.5 X .284.

Trajectory comparison...this is something we can all appreciate.

My accuracy load for my .308 is our much talked about 44.0 gr. Varget under a 175 SMK, Lapua case, and Fed 210 M primer. Assembled to an OAL of 2.800". Velocity of this from my Obermeyer barreled M40A1 clone is 2,650 FPS. This achieves point of aim/point of impact hits at 600 yards with 15 MOA.

The 6.5 X .284 from my Chandler Super Sniper does and honest 2,960 FPS and accomplishes the same feat using only 11.25 MOA. That's a substantial difference.
Load is: 142 Sierra SMK, Norma Brass, 54.6 gr. H4831SC, and a Fed 210 M primer. Loaded to an OAL of 2.98"

Both guns are turning in 1/2 MOA groups at 600 and better that considerably when I can get my stuff in one bag.

Thought I'd post this, as an enticement, to those who are straddling the fence on the 6.5 vs .300 issue. Oh, did I say you can still move your arm afterwards?

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 04:06:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.40)

Chris W <curel28@bellsouth.net>
Nash., Tn., USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 04:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.119.59)

Some of you may recall my mention of wanting to explore tha MAS 49-56 rifle as a platform for a precision tactical or match rifle. I have started this project and have made some pretty substantial progress on it and thought I might share. This is the first such elaborate project I have undertaken and have learned a lot over the past few weeks.

The stock is from a brown laminated blank that came fomr Gun Parts Corporation for $39 or so. Is is supposidly Remington surplus of some sort and seems to be of good quality. I ordered a already partially shaped blank, which it one of the reason the pistol grip looks a bit funny. It should work out though. In the future I will order the log-like, unshaped version for the same money. It is now beginning to resemble a stock, but I have a lot of carving to go. It is now just right for your typical 7'2", 450lb shooter. The inleting was perfomed almost exclusivly on the milling machine. Anothing thing I like about this action: most every surface on it is square to everything else, so it is easy to hold in a milling machine vice and easy to inlet using standard end mills and such.

The barrel is also from GPC, a $29 sporter weight .30-06 tube that they made fo fit an as-yet unidentified bolt gun. I parted off the rear 1/2 inch or so, turned it down to the correct diameter for the shank, rethreaded, chambered, headspaced, and made the breeching cuts. Pretty simple stuff, as such things go. I also ended up turning the front of the barrel down to about 1/2", smaller than desired. One reason for this is that the sporter contour is really too light to turn a paralell section to fit a gas block. I am not sure if I will ever fire this barrel as I dont want to have to fit the handguards and gas system twice. I will be ordering a Douglas Airgauged, Lothar Walther or comperable barel in a heavy contour within a couple of weeks. This cheapie tube has served its purpose in providing me with a lot of valuable expereince at a much lower anxiety level than with a pricier barrel. Pity it wont be shot, as the blank Numrich started with was actualy of good quality. Numrich/GPC is underrated as a maker of quality barrels, in my experience.

The gas block (not pictured) will be made from a 2" x .75" piece of stainless steel, a four-foot long section of which I managed to find our scrap pile (!). How could I have forgotten about that one? :) The gas tube will be a standard M16 part, with an adaptor to fit at the receiver end turned out of some 316 stainless steel round I bought. I used the same steel to fabricate the escucheon that the action and trigger housing screw thread into.

The hanguard fitted is out of a piece of 2 1/4" Schedule 40 6061 T6 aluminum pipe. It is attached to the reciever via a hanger I machined out of a 1 1/2" 6061 aluminum that attaches to the reciever with three 1/4-28 tpi screws. The barrel is completly free-floating and the handguard and bracket are sized to clear a barrel up to 1.3" in diameter. Also pictured is the laminated forend that was cut off of the blank, and I think I will fit it as well, depending on which route I want to take. It would be easier to set it it with a hand rail, in any event. It might be a little prettier, too. :)

Also to be done: trigger tuning (M14-like, but better), scope mount fabrication and fitting, possible fabrication of an adjustable butplate and/or cheekpiece, titanium firing pin (if I can find anyone that will sell me some without making a $150 minumum order, grr...).

Here are links to a couple of pics:

Included are a stock MAS 49-56 and my 700PSS, with LRM3, Badger rings, Bayer Lightforce bases, Eagle pack, target rail, handstop, bipod and Undude SupahSling.

Lot of work to go, but I'm pretty happy so far.
 
 

Steiner vs IOR.

IORs are heavier and cheaper. Optical quality is very close. I own 7x40 and 10x50 IORS and have put them up against Steiners. They do very well. I suspect you would have to go to Zeiss and other $1000+ class optics to gain any improvement over what IOR sells.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 05:36:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

Sorry.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 05:44:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

http://forums.ar15.com/Forum3/HTML/028249.html

I put it under the webpage url for my name as well so just click on that to go there.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 07:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

This is my first post to this Board. I am fairly new at Long Rang Target Shooting and i wish to keep it up. Ive got a quick question if u dont mind. Ive been looking to buy a scope and a friend has suggested the Leupold Vari X II 3-9x 40mm Tactical w/ Mildot. However i have noticed, on this site, a fair amout of mention that includes the Leupold Vari X III 3.5-10 40mm Tactical w/ Mildot. I am in conflict between these two and would appriciate a little help if you could spare some.
Im am primaraly fixated on Long Range Target Shooting and will probably do minimal hunting.
If you could sudgest the better one and why it would be better for me it would be great. Also if you have another scope in mind please alert me to its existence.
I will probably be getting a Remington Model 700P but that also is in question. If you have any knowledge that would help me out in that descision also it would be greatly appritiated.

If you would like to talk with me i have e-mail which should be listed at the bottom somewhere and i am also on ICQ AIM YAHOO and MSN. Just e-mail me if you would like to talk.
I look forward to being on the board more often if you would have me.

Thanks for all of your time: )

Mr B

Brandon <mista_b1@hotmail.com>
Canada - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 09:33:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.209.117.14)

Mr B
Brandon <mista_b1@hotmail.com>
Ontario, Canada - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 09:45:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.209.117.14)

]"
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 12:37:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

It is common practice to train on E-type and F-type steel targets aka "White Iron Maiden" (WIMs). These WIM targets are brightly colored, of known size and are generally fully exposed. WIMs are good training aids and enable the shooter to develop his ability to range the target using the mil-dot reticle and they also provide immediate feed-back for hits.

Is it reasonable to assume that operationally targets will seldom be fully exposed, often of unknown size and generally camouflaged? I think so.

I think that to train and qualify using only WIMs will produce shooters skilled at hitting WIMs while leaving that shooter illprepared for actual operations.

The use of WIMs also contributes to the notion that the mil-dot reticle is more useful for range finding that it actually is. This notion contributes to the widely held belief that laser range finders are unnecessary. I know the laser is an active emitter and can pose serious OPSEC issues. I am sure these issues can be mitigated. The laser still provides the most accurate means for range finding available and not only can it be used but it should be used as required.

Once a shooter has gained skill and developed his data how should he then train? Wouldn't it be prudent to transition to targets at unknown distances, of unknown size and at least partially concealed? Shouldn't we focus our training on methods for minimizing the hazards associated with the use of laser rangefinders as an adjunct to the mil-dot reticle?

I am not an expert.
I am an amateur with questions.
 
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 13:10:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

FWIW,
Roger
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Bush country, Y'all!, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 14:55:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)

Doug...
The IOR's don't have the "red" coating (at least none of them I've seen), but the Tabascos, and lots of other consumer bins have it... it's very "Hip" and "stylish" with the sailboat set, but does nothing to make seeing better.

This red on the Tabascos bins, is not the same as the light pink of the "counter-laser" filters, on the later M22 Steiner, and other military bins. Those filters are pinkish because the frequency of ranging lasers is 1.06 microns(1060 Ang)... and a little of the green wavelength of .530 Mu (530 Ang) is also canceled, because it's the second harmonic of the laser frequency... so technically, it has a magenta tint. (There will be a test in the morning ;)

Rick-ster...
No!... not my favorite color, but I couldn't turn them down... $330 from Steiner, with the papers, about 1/4 to 1/3 the going price.
I don't get headaches from them, but there is reduced shadow penetration at dusk/dawn.
KilFlash does make a really good front anti-reflection set for it... not like the little cheapies from Leupold... these are about 2" deep, with very open hunnycomb.

I got them in part, because of the price, and in part, because I have an AN/GVS-5, and friends of mine have the big Russian rangefinders, that are about 5 or 6 times more powerfull (real paint peelers)... and the posibility of an accidental reflection off something shinny, when captured by a 50mm optic, does concern me (I'm an old model, and can't get replacement parts anymore ;)

Kevin... (El Jefe de' Team Mussack)
On WIM's... I disagree with your assement of mildots.
First off, when any student is learning to use a math type tool, they are given simple examples, with single digit numbers, and nice easy angles, over and over and over, so they can get the format imprinted in their mind... The same with "WIM"s.
But when they get that down pact, then they are given the complex odd numbers with decimals, with odd sizes, and fractionated angles, to get very complex answers.
IT's the same with mildots.
You start out with 20"x48" targets, all nicely exposed, until it's second nature... but then remember there are thousands of other standard objects in the field to range on, even when the target is hiding... hubcaps, window and door frames, phone pole diameters... tons of stuff whose size is standardized by the industry that makes them... target is hiding behind a Honda Accord... the hubcap is 13"... behind a ford Explorier, hubcap is 15"... on and on... you just need to plan ahead.
Instead of mildots being over-rated, I think they are under-rated.
Lasers... Yup, use 'em if you got 'em (and it's safe!!).

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 15:44:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.59)

I think that even though it might be "yesterday's wine" it is good to hear about customer testominials.
Previously there have been some newcomers posting questions about high dollar loooong wait time tactical rifles. So when there are some great gunmiths out there that can turn around a product quickly and at a reasonable price it is nice to know about them.

It is difficult (at least for me) to plunk down a chunk of money on a rifle without talking to somebody that has one. After speaking with Undude a couple of years ago I got hooked! I ended up getting three rifles from Jerry Rice and just got the chance to shoot the "Rock" from George Gardner. It is very gratifying to end up with equipment that truly performs! All of these rifles can shoot 1/4 MOA. I can come close to that some times, but I have seen Undude do it regularily.

Both of those guys make great rifles and you don't need to spend $5,000 of wait a year for them.

For me it is confidence in my equipment, I just need to keep practicing, learning and listening!

I got a chance to shoot Mike's .338 Lapua yesterday. Boom! What a caliber! It wasn't that uncomfortable to shoot, and it was fun to throw big lead down range.

I was also shooting 220 gr. ammo in my.300 WM Rice Nighthawk. The muzzle, flash hider thing that he puts on the end made the rifle very comfortable to shoot. I actually thought that it felt much like a .308.

If anybody wants to shoot a .300 mag, but doesn't want to deal with the recoil or the increased blast from a Vais type brake I strongly suggest you check it out.
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 16:41:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

I would prefer to be able to shoot at maidens for training and developing zeros and then shoot at reactive targets such as RETS for qual courses, final evaluations etc. I think this is how SOTIC does it. I have painted maidens OD before but its a bitch to spot hits. You can hear the clang but a precise impact point is usually impossible to see.

IOR binos use removable laser filters that fit onto the eye pieces vice the objective lenses which I think is a superior way of providing protection against DEW.
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 18:33:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.102.22.56)

They are just amber "haze" filters to better seeing conditions during atmospheric haze, like yellow shooting glasses.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 19:08:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)

Don: thanks for the vote of confidence, and I'd probably make a heck of a lot better NCOIC than butterbar ;-) As to Springfields rifle, I've not handled the scout version, but have a fair approximation from the M1A1 that they put out. My short form answer is "don't". Springfield isn't putting GI parts in their rifles anymore, and hasn't for quite some time. Likewise, the quality of what's coming from Geneseo isn't up to the par it was years ago. For instance (and this is being picky, but it's something I think we can all quickly take a look at) pull your action and see what the receiver legs look like. On my most recent example, it looked like file teeth where nobody had cleaned up the DEEP machine cuts. After hardening, it'll do your bedding or stock JUST LIKE that hardened file too! That and I've heard too many horror stories of late about the service there. Heck, I've even contributed one recently. My suggestion? Get a Springfield Inc stripped reciever. Last time I looked they were in the $450 category. Have it built by a GREAT smith, and have a blast. He'll use nothing but premium US GI parts, hardened properly, and it'll last a lifetime. If you want the scout scope, this can be done when they work the barrel. Just my opinion though LOL, and if you need the number of a great gas gun smith, I'll hook you up with him.

The 6.5 Swede experiment continues tomorrow. Did some "lunchtime" chronoing, came out much better than expected! With that Rem 140 grain, square based, soft point I got a high of 2741 fps. That was with completely rounded primers and beautiful striker punches. Geoff says to add 150 fps for transitioning from my square base hunting bullet to the 142 SMK due to bearing surface. In other words, I'm sitting at 2900 fps with the SMK, calculated. So tomorrow I'll see if I can push her another 100 fps, at least 50, before the primers start to flatten. I'm betting it will be just fine at 2850, maybe more.

Speaking of 6.5 Swedes, hey TorF, you lurking out there? Drop me an e-mail if you wouldn't mind! I understand you're the guru of the Swede.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, looking at a Swede immigrant, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 19:14:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

'LITO.... I know that you're getting a big 50. Have you seen the new
scope rings from Dan Ross? Six top screws and TWO crossbolts per ring.
Hell for stout, just like all of Dan's other stuff. Just right for
a 'Fifty Towed'. :-)
 
 
 
 
 

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 19:31:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.79)

More on color blindness. I have a vague memory of reading as a kid about how in the WWII era men with red/green color blindness were able to detect camo out of the natural surrounding. For some reason they weren't fooled as easily. Does this make sense? I don't remember where I read it, so it's just a floating "factoid" in my mind.

To me, a green stoplight is the same color as the streetlights, in most cases. It sure isn't army green. And the red light is more orange/red than firetruck red.

Is there any chance of getting the Duty Roster editor in the Roster's reverse reading section too?

What the heck is magenta anyway? Is that like fuschia? I have no idea what color those are. My color categories come from the Big 8 box of crayons: black, brown, blue, red, orange, yellow, green, white.

Doug

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 20:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.101.249.66)

"What the heck is magenta anyway?"
It's a purplish color... technically, it is white light, with less, or no green component.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 20:27:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)

The additive priniciple of combining colors is: When thay have been separated, the primary color components of light-red, green, and blue-can be recombined to produce all the other colors or white, and the total absence of color is black. Called additive primaries because they introduce color where none exisits (black), each of these colorstransmits about one-third of the spectrum's wavelengths; the addition of any one of these colors to the other when projected in separated beams of light can probuce other colors. Overlapped in beams of light, all three appear to the eye as white. This may be shown by setting up three slide projectors. Place a No. 25 red filter over the frist projector lens, a number 58 green filter over the second and a number 47 blue filter over the third. Now turn out the lights, turn on the projectors, and overlap their beams of light on a screen. By combining the colors from the three projectors, you can produce:

red + green = yellow
green + blue = cyan (bluish green)
blue + red = magenta (purplish red)
red + green + blue = white

The colors probucec by combining two additive primaries are called secondray colors. A primary and a secondary coloer whose light(in similar situations) combines to make white light are called complementary colors. On the color wheel coplements are opposite each other- such as blue and its complementary color yellow or red to cyan, or green to magenta.
 

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 21:21:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

'lito....

I am sure that under most circumstances a military or LEO sniper will be operating in an area well populated with objects of known size.

Imagine operations in wilderness areas devoid of objects of known size. Where is the hubcap or the mailbox or the window frame to range to? What then? The mil-dot reticle is there but a key element is absent until the target shows up. When the target arrives I hope to have my range card completed and ready.

A laser seems to make sense especially when the bad guys are absent.

Gooch wrote:
"I know they are inter-related but the iron maidens are not really for range estimation training."

Got it.

If the Iron Maidens were not populating the hillside at SMTC what would be there to mil-dot range on? Without man made objects of know size in the proximity of the target you're out of luck with the mil-dots.

Or am I missing something here?
 
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 22:17:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Damn!!!!

I wonder if IOR makes laser filters for those things?

One other thing about laser filters on bino's or any other optics intended for observation/tgt detection. One thing I've noticed is that the filters tend to screw up your color perception when viewing through them. It used to screw me and other guys up when trying to detect concealed items.

Back to packing the Jimmy!!! I hit the road friday night!!

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 22:24:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 162.39.136.187)

I have bought a lot of crap when I was younger, (and still now) but it wasn't until I communicated with people like Mr. Undude that I finally got pointed in the right direction!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 22:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

What is available for eye protection from those lasers most likely to be encountered on the battlefield?

I'm thinking of a wrap-around, Z87 or better protection with prescription inserts and a head strap.

Considering the proliferation of lasers out there some protection is called for.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 23:48:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.209.107)

More questions for you to ponder while we are on the subject:

What are the 'practical' sniping ranges for 6.5x284, 308, 300mag and 338 Lapau? Are these also practical milling ranges? These would be optimum ranges that wind, etc. would affect the shot the 'least".

I may have asked this before but what's new? Why has the Sierra HPBTM been choosen as 'the' match bullet? How about the Bergers and others? I read an article about how the military gets around the Geneva Convention on the Matchking being a HP but are there not other bullets that could equal it?

If a friend really really wanted a 6.5x284 and he had to get rid of a 7mag Sendero or a 300 mag Sendero, which one should he get rid of? Oh and by the way, there are no Rem 700 stock varmit or sniper contour barreled factory rifles available in 30-06 to build the dang 6.5 on! Would have to get a BDL and strip it or get a multi million dollar barreled action from Brownells.

Starting off the new year with lots of questions as usual, Bolt out!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, January 04, 2001 at 23:51:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.118.232)

Feelin' froggy - and looking for that infra red beam from pablito's laser range finder any moment now.

Ken
Ken Hunter <HunterKR@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 00:32:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

In the sniper log books, there are usually diagrams with measurements of the various spans across a humanoid profile - such as shoulder to shoulder, elbow to elbow, ear to hear, neck to waistline, etc. Sssssseeeemmmmss like if you could probably get a good mil'ling if the target exposes one of those areas.

Ken

Ken Hunter <Hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 00:40:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

So I just tested myself as follows; each day, I would fire one to three shots. Each shot would be from a different location, at a new target position. I allowed 3 minutes after hiking to position to firing the shot. The shots would be fired at various times thoughout the day, in no case would two shots be fired within an hour of each other. I used a standard Gunsite camo target, stapled to a water heater box for a 3-D effect. This let me run a rod through the entry/exit holes to judge the hit quiality. All ranging was done using the mil dots in a Mark IV Leupold M1 10X, or a 25X spotter. Each range was confirmed by laser back to the FFP after marking the shot. So after 16 shots, here are the results.

12 hits, 3 "edgers". 4 shots were off the paper, but on the box. One could have been a thigh hit, assuming the target was standing straight up. This makes for 75% 'first round hits'. Average range worked out to 616 yards. The long hit was 810 the short hit 489. Shortest miss - 560 yards (lased), missed the range, over by 40 yards. The long miss was 825(lased), I ranged 750. Only one miss was due to wind, right 8" at an actual range of 689, too much hold into a more of a following wind that a crosswind.

The lack of wind problems was mostly the weather gods, the most correction needed was 3 minutes left, probably 40% needed nothing at all. some of the "edgers" were over/under compensated, but none over a minute either way.

What's this all mean? Well my data books tell me I get better than 95% first round hits on known distance range sessions from 600-800 yards. The misses are ALL wind related, the range and zero are known. This obviously does NOT translate to the actual sniper mission percentage. In addition to the 20% drop, lets not forget I had a very cooperative target. No movement, a known size, and good weather. Barrett Tillman once said, "You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training." It seems clear that this should be a continuing exercise. More ranging practice is also on the agenda.

Any of you operational guys want to do a review of your logs and give us an idea what a good percentage might be?
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 01:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

Well if there aint nothing to mil then I guess we're left with the other methods to estimate distance like the 100 yard unit of measure, appearance of objects, partner averaging, maps, etc. Of course the laser will be used if applicable/available.

One question though. If there aint nothing to mil then wouldnt that mean there aint nothing to shoot either? I mean if you can lay a crosshair on it then you can mil it...

I spent the last couple of days at the bro in laws place when the power went out siting in his gazebo/deer hide miling out telephone poles, transformers, does and eyeballing distances etc. You get your sustainment training where you can get it.

out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 01:45:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.102.23.134)

Thumbs up on the Model 7. Have one in 7mm-08 and it one of "the" best little rifles that I have ever owned. Light, easy in the woods! Pinned a doe dead center in the heart at 265 yards last year with a sight in of 2 1/2" high at 100 and just about a dead hold on. I can't speak for the 308 in the Model 7 but would like to have one of them also ;) Put a 2.5-8 Lupito on her and you will really like it.
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 02:05:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.73)

I'm just biding my time, waiting for Remington to get around to churning out some more .308 PSS's, since my dealer tells me all his distributors are clean out of them. Meanwhile, I get to read yous guys braggin day after day about shooting sub-MOA groups at hundreds of yards with your fancy kits...

And I'm biding that time at the range with what I've got, the most accurate of which happens to be my Super Redhawk. Figgered it wouldn't hurt to do some bragging myself, and include the specs on the load I put together to do it with. Hell, the range master was pretty impressed with the results. You guys, however, aren't so easy to impress, and for good reason.

So, everyone who's bragged about the sub-MOA group size of your rig, raise your hand. Bill sez you can't do that no mo. To do so, in Bills own words, is, "yesterday's wine."

Ok, now that I've got that out of my system, I've got a question...

When Leupold says "3/4 mil. dot" what do they mean by the 3/4 part? Aren't the dots spaced a full milliradian center to center?
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:03:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

"Mr. Pablito"??? I know I complain about not gettin' no respect on this site... but that's TOO much respect.... I can't handle it ;)

For your IOR scope questions, ask Mike (The Undude), he has several of them.
I've got a pair of the bins with the infra-red detector built in, and the 4x24 (PSO-1 type) scope coming as soon as the 300WM and the 50BMG are paid for, and I will write a review of them both around April.
There are a lot of guys that have IOR bins, and a few that have the scopes on this site... HEY YOUz GUYS... send this dude some e-mail!!

Andy's Dad (With a smile:)

I'm not knockin' lasers... I LOVE LASERS!!!
but I don't think Mildots get enuff respect. There are time when one or the other is all you can use... for low tech targets (Somalian "Technicals), lasers are fine day or night... for medium tech targets (field units, or sentries)... lasers are good during the day, but risky at dusk... for hi-tech targets (Tanks, or hi monied enemies, like big drug operations), lasers are risky almost always.

'lito (Scooter's Dad ;)
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:09:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.88)

Cheers,
Roger

Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Fully thawed in Austin, TX, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:21:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.160.1.144)

If there's lots of man-made stuff in your area, yes, you've got lots of familiar stuff to mil. If you're going to fight at home, you literally have the home court advantage. If you're a rapid-deployment team sniper, do you really have the dimensions of, say public street garbage cans like they have in downtown Hong Kong or Singapore? What are the dimensions of a Land Rover? Land Cruiser? Korean Bongo van?

If you are in the boonies, then what do you mil or range? Bad guys. Walking, laying, sitting, scratching their butts, sitting in vehicles, in the attack, in the defense, etc., etc. How to practice that? Exercises against simulated bad guys. Failing that, cattle (no guns), deer, coyotes, crows, prairie dogs. E-types give you bigger margin for error.

And the premier ranging instrument we had before the laser and mil-dots? Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball. What's your personal range finding +/- error? This goes hand-in-hand with the question on max effective range in FFP: what's your mission analysis say (back to METT-T)? Are you surrounded by good guys in support, or are you, your spotter, security, and commo guy the only human beings with English on your dogtags for 50 Kms? For 100 Kms?

John Plaster's book had a great quote in it, something about "Amateurs study drop tables and ballistics. Pros study winds." If the bad guy's standing up you've got the range from top of torso to just below waistline to hit -- based on your range estimation and your ability to dial and hold.

There is no single solution or magic answer between rifles, scopes, and calibers. The "Nut behind the butt" is the secret weapon.

"If it was easy, anybody could do it."

As for lasing, with more than two or three pairs ready to hammer a target, now you have six (or more) sets of eyeballs behind Mark 4s, B&Ls and spotting scopes. Let's say all of you have non-eyesafe lasers, and you don't know if the bad guys have passive NVGs. Old tanker's trick to confuse listeners as to how many vehicles you have and to keep spotters or snipers from getting retinae fried:

"Stand by to lase"
"Roger." All non-ranging guys come off of optics or look away.
"3-2-1-Lase."
Then everybody back to work.
 

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:24:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.19.122)

THANKS
MARK
 

mark <sniper22398@yahoo.com>
poseyville, in, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:25:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.170.82.206)

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-m40a3.html

The reviewer is one Patrick A. Rogers, USMC (ret.), who, in the discussion which you can find by following an obvious link on the page, seems to not have known what a Sendero was until someone told him. Even then it seems there's ignorance among some of those posting concening the VS and Sendero as names for particular models of Remington.

I'm new to bolt guns, but at least I know what Remington names their rifles and have tried to learn about the various cartridges a rifle can be chambered in. I hate slipshod minds. And I love to learn.

Doug McKay

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Spring seems to be coming, to Minnesota, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 03:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3)

WIMs we do not use them. We used to use them and found that they were at times a hinderance to the student learning the "complete sequence for engaging a target. We use an OD painted iron maiden that is 1 meter tall and .5 meters wide. That is the size of a standard e type. That is also the size of "most humans from about 5'4" to 6'4" from top of head to groin, give or take an inch. Tall and short comes from the long bones in the legs. That is just like they are about 30 inches from waist line to top of the head, 19(.5 meters) inches from nipple line to top of the head and 19(.5 meters) inches fromshoulder to shoulder. This permits a rapid mil using the formula of 1000/target height in mils or 500/target hit or width in mils. This also permits miling the target from groin to top of the head and double checking from shoulder to shoulder. Now why do we use the mils and not the laser range finder. Because mils require training and lasers require pushing a button. We train for the more difficult so that when the laser breaks, batteries run dead, or the vegetation is too thick and standing up is not an option, we have another means. Which is better, the MOST accurate when you can, train for the worst and be pleasantly surprised. Train for the best and get your butt handed to you by Murphy. Is Mil over rated, no, are they under rated, most defiantely. There is always something around to mil. If there are trees in your area then you can see the tres in the target area they will have a coorelation in size and give you a good estimate of the range. ANYTHING that has a known size can be miled for range. If the object of known size is turned at an angle then estimate the angle and use the same formula for computing angle shots to find the "apparent" size of the object, ie if a tank barrel is 5 meters and you see it is turned at an apparent 45 degree angle then you know that the barrel is showing an apparent length of 3.25 meters times 1000 divided by mil size equals range. When you have the laser and can use it go for it but to rely on it is foolish and to train on it only is also foolish when it amounts to pushing the button. Miling is difficult and requires training so that is what we train on.

Gooch - You are right we do test on the ractive od targets for the field shoot and the final shoot.

Bravo - you were asking about measurements and there are a bunch up in that rambling above. Those are norms and work for about 90% of the human race. If you are going into an area where there are a normal variance then the S2 will get that info and have to make a new set of tables and standards.

Bolt - Realistic ranges for a military first round hit is about 600 to 700 meters. There are too many varibles to "stake your life" on that first round hit beyond that. Most "normal engagements" are form 400 to 600. There are misses at those ranges as well. Now the 300, 7mm, 6.5, 338LM, etc, all add alittle fudge factor but do not extend the range that much. Shooting at a high dollar target at 1000 meters with any of those can be a crap shoot. The .308 moves about 1 moa for each mph of wind at that range. The 300 moves at about .6 to .7 moa for each mph, and the 6.5 and 7 moves at about .5 to .6 moa for each mph. Translating into inches and you see you have a problem with just a slight wind shift just as the trigger is pulled. As any Palma shooter when that round slides out into the 9 ring due to that shift. The sniper gets rounds back at him, the Palma shooter just grimaces and looks forward to the next match. Could you take a target out at 1000 metres absoutely, would I plan on it, no. Shoot and hit a target and you have panic and fear thus reduced reation time. Shoot and miss and you have a bunch of brave pissed off individuals with an attitude that you may not be prepared for.

Mike - 3/4 means the dot is 3/4 moa in diameter or .22 mils in diameter. It is a 3/4 moa mil dot. Clear as mud? It confuses Plaster too. :-) By using the mil as .2 mils in diameter you can mil very easily to .1 and alot of times to .05. Now these are the round mil dots, the footballs are .25 long. These permit miling to .25 mil. Clearer than mud now?

You guys have fun now, Gooch safe trip man! Hope this came out right too tired to proof read tonight and there is no spell check.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 04:09:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.189.71)

Indeed it is. Thank you so much, Roger.

I learn something new every day.
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 04:11:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

I don't know about all Rodgers' credentials, surely he has 100% more than I do. But, it sure appears to be poor form to have an AR pointing at the camera man and 2 shotguns pointing at the shooter in the third picture. Don't think that I would want to go shooting with that bunch.

Don't like the looks of the stock. And at 19 pounds and change, I reckon we can't laugh at Ken's 308 towed anymore!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 04:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.73)

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 04:20:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.10)

I hear you guys are starting another class again soon. "Sarge, I be SOOOooo cold." Was it really 13F out the other morning?

Looks like Leatherwood's selling an ART-1 clone again for about $400 to fit on Picatinny rails. Man that thing was fast, but I could never get it dialled in accurately past 500 yards. Hated the ART-2.

Stay warm, hombre.

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 04:26:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.19.122)

Thanks Rick.

It wasn't the math, nor the conversion between minutes of angle and milliradians that worried me. I was worried that Leupold, for some odd reason, decided to space the dots 3/4 of a mil. center to center, instead of a full mil., making the math a wee bit tougher when trying to use one of their scopes with a mil. dot master.
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 04:33:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Gooch:

I just went thru a few weeks of 20 below zero and 60 mph winds, and I still feel bad for ya!! but hell, that's just a normal South Dakota winter, eh Pat?? We went 700 and some odd days without dippin' below zero here in Rapid, but we made up for it somethin' fierce. No ice though, just windy as hell. I'd have to say youse guys weren't prepared for that kind of weather though, eh?? We climbed back into the 50's and 60's this week, much better.

Bolt:

I couldn't agree with ya more, the 7-08Rem in Model 7 is my fay-vo-rite rifle to date, she puts 'em where ya point 'em. What twist ya got in your's?? I still have to bed my recoil lug yet, and it shoots 1/4 inch all day. Maybe I shouldn't mess with it, but, well you know.

PeteR:

So damn cold the pheasants feets froze to the ground, helluva sight. easy pickins... Who needs to pay for cryo treatment, just bring yer weapon of choice to the Dakotas!!! Just leave 'em in yer pickup overnight, and voil'a, got yerself a popsicle.

mrbullet:

I think you'd get a kick out of the tree stand we have out at the brother in law's. 10 feet or so off the ground, comfortably seats 4-5, bay windows on the north (facing the creek draw) and south (facing the corn) ends (one window cranks open the other slides), a cupelo, insulated, electric power, heat!! Next year we'll have a tv and fridge, maybe some recliners. the only way to hunt, heheh.

later kids...
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 04:37:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.14)

They are always there.

Right there, in your field of view, where you have got to be looking to get the job done anyway:

"Oop, there he is. Range?"

{slight shift of field of view to get mil data}

{a moment of mental math}

{apply dope}

{shoot}

No fumbling for extra devices or other screwing around. Its all right there, ready to go. Thats what I like about them.
 

Other good reasons: you cant loose them, the batteries cant die, they are highly unlikely to break, they dont clutter up the reticle much and are fairly cheap to procure. Are they easy to use? No, not without a fair bit of training and practice. Are they accurate? They can be, particularly with the aformentioned training and practice.

But I feel that, if nothing else, there is an element of "what the hell?" in deciding to go with the mildot reticle. I havent mastered it yet but if there isnt one in the scope, I never can master it, can I? :)

IOR Scopes:

I have two, a 8x56mm hunting scope and the 4x Dragunov pattern scope. These are old school, European-style scopes, with steel tubes and funky adjustments (by American standards) and excellent glass. The quality is there and they certainly seem tough enough. The Dragunov pattern is of the Soviet "choke" ranging type, supposidly calibrated for the 7.62 NATO M852 load. This approach has it plusses and minuses, of course. It is tritium iluminated, which is a good thing becasue it is so fine and complex that without illumination it just dissapears at dusk, . The 8x56 is just an olde-time European hunting scope that I bought prior to IOR introducing the more American-market oriented tactical products. It is bright, clear (as in, held its own against a Zeiss Diavari at dusk )and, as is typical of IOR products, is HEAVY as all hell.

-Tom
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 05:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)

To those of you shooting G.A. rifles, Thanks for the Plugs. I will continue to do my best to take care of you guys here on S.C.

For those of you going to New Mexico for James & Undudes class this Summer I will see you there. I am bringing an AR-10 for Mike to shoot.

Bravo, We together will make Undude a believer in Gas Guns.

Asta

George
George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 06:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.204)

I got ol' "Gasgun Bravo" to go hit the site and see what the hub-bub was about. George, I think I've seen you make a few posts over there giving the AR15.com dewds a heads up from time to time, might want to wander over and see what is going on.
 

Those guys don't seem to have had the pleasure of fighting over gas guns versus bolt guns to the point that the issue has been covered here on the roster.

One guy believes the AR10 can never be made to be as accurate as a PSG1, they've got some serious gas gun worshiping going on over there. Not that I didn't expect that since it is a gasgun site.

If I can ever get my AR10 to be as solid a performer as my 17 pound "lightning rod" of an AR15 has proven to be, I'll be a happy happy man!
 
 

You'll have to do a cut and paste to head over to get a gander at the thread, give it time the site has been a bit slow over the past few days. http://forums.ar15.com/Forum3/HTML/028203.html
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 07:02:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

Why?

Ref: Training Plans/Documents

We (Team Mussack)have been able to collect quite a lot of sniper reference material over the past few years. There is some pure BS in print out there so we've had to glean the best from the rest.

To the point...
Would any of you fine gentlemen consider sharing any pubs. that might not currently be in general circulation? I'm not asking for classified stuff here. I'm looking for the nitty-gritty Task/Condition/Standard training documents that we could use to plan our training and measure our progress.

Visiting this site a couple of times a day has been very helpful and it seems I learn something useful on every visit. I hate to keep asking "rookie" questions. It just seems that the more I learn the more I realize I don't know.

Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 13:25:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Wahoo! OT monies finally came through so I'm upgrading my rings and bases with Badgers. Need the best source for the rings and bases, availability and price. Please e-mail me directly - looking at buying them through the SC PX unless someone suggests better.

Second thing is an OT question maybe someone can answer for me: Why in the heck is H&K trying to sell their SL8-1 rifles to officers for the low, low, special deal price of $1300.00? And $32 for a 10 round magazine?? I'm not the brightest bulb in the box but it seems odd to me that the price for a single stack/10 round .223 firing rifle damn near equals the price of two Bushmasters. I've tried them, fired them and came away not terribly impressed. Maybe the G36 is better than the US neutered version (Torsten?). I'm thinking that maybe they're not the hot sellers H&K hoped they would be. (reference, page 13 of the Nov/Dec 2000 edition of ASLET's The Law Enforcement Trainer)

Anyway, thanks in advance for the input.
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 18:19:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.39.130.175)

The folks that told you that the only difference between the two, was the stock... were right ON!

The 12" twist will shoot the 168, and 175 SMK pretty Okie dokie... you won't be able to tell the difference with factory barrels. When you shoot out that factory tube, then think of getting a faster twist.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 18:42:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.8)

Squirrel boy: you're being a touch too kind to some of them. I don't mind an honest difference of opinion, but some of that stuff borders on "fabrication". I've seen too many dogs sit up and speak, so I won't call anyone on it, but if I did, I'd go $50 against him.

George: you make three! Good to hear it. Heck, this'll be one to remember! I've got a feeling that there'll be lots of comparisons out there though. I talked to Geoff, he says I'm A-OK for bench time between NM and Storm, so the M-25 is having nothing done until after the class. Other than shooting it and cleaning the rifle that is ;-) Heck, if the UnDude doesn't call me on it, I might even change the grease before coming out there!

Master Rick: Thanks for the dope. Figured it was in that ballpark, but don't remember the measurements off the top of my head. But I can tell you what an IDPA siloughet measures! HA! Guess it's 'cause I shoot at them and you....... remember numbers better LOL THANKS!

More of the neutered Swede saga: I'm convinced that the data for the 6.5 Swede in America is neutering that great round just like it did the 9mm Parabellum. I'm using a 140 grain Remington flat based hunting bullet from a 24" barrel. Got 2900 fps with two powders today. The first powder is ever so slightly starting to flatten primers, so it's DONE. The second leaves the primers looking PURDY.... just like the ones at 2600 fps. You know what I'm gonna do! Gonna load up some more with that H4831SC, and see where it goes. My guess? I'll run out of case capacity before I run out of pressure capabilities. I'm not sure how this relates (as in how much, not which direction), but the chamber is a touch loose. Any idea how much a nice tight chamber would slow this thing down? I'm thinking that another 2 or 3" of barrel, and using those 142 SMK's, I ought to be at 3000 fps with no probs.

Suggestions? Bueler? Bueler?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 18:57:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

I have some Ghillie suit questions, and this site seemed like the best place to start. I'm no sniper, but as a hunter and photographer I'm allways looking for a better way to become invisible. How many of you use a ghillie for hunting? Any anecdotes or quick stories would be appreciated. (feel free to email me) Is it any more effective than, say, a Mossy Oak 3D pattern?

To get a suit of my own, it seems I have 2 options - make it or buy one. Cabela's has a suit for $165. Would a first attempt amateurish be better than buying complete? I know a lot of you guys have made your own. Any tips or advice?

Finally, are they durable? Seems that a lot of slinking around in the woods over briars etc. would excessively hinder any type of movement, even at a snails pace. All that burlap with each strip hung on a briar, seems to me would bring you not only to a stop, but would cause unneccessary attention getting movement.

Are there any books or manuals on this subeject? I'd read that Mike Lau (Texas Brigade Armory) was planning a book on personal camoflage and concealment, but is not yet availible.

Thanks in advance for your help.
DTW <Tedford44@AOL.COM>
IN, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 19:47:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.107)

Are we still talking about rifles? Or are we back to discussing women?
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 19:51:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

I'm powering down the old pentium 200, ripping out the cables and throwing it into the Jimmy. I'm on the road in the AM.

Hold yer collective breath.

TRGT will still be accepting orders via our web site and I should resume shipping next week.

The tumbleweed has caught another gust!!!! Hang on!!!

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 20:53:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 162.39.136.97)

Well, the "evil gasgunner", Bravo, has finally got me interested in a George Gardiner Gas Gun(4g's)?

Sent him a message today asking for some particulars, etc.
Bad, Bad, Bravo!

Will be praying for religious intervention before this goes to much farther...an apocolypse for gas gunners? Just maybe.

Even if he wins this round, my 6.5 is going to be better than his 6.5...Yadda, Yadda, Yadda, and TTTHHHPPP!

Semper Fi,

Wes
(The infantile)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 21:09:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.6.15.20)

I would like to respond to the subjects " to mildot or not to mildot" and the laser "danger" problems.

To Mr K.Mussack; I agree that laser range finder's are easier in use and much faster (depending on one's calculating abilities or usage of the excelent mildot master)but as with al laser emitting devices they can be spotted and batteries can.........................
Damn, i guess i am to late with responding, just read the rest of today's roster and realize that everything i was about to type has allready been summoned up, very accurately i must say, by Mr Gooch and Mr Simpson.
Well in that case all i can add is that these 2 gentlemen are right on the money, because in these modern days we (military but also civilians) rely to much on electric equipment already, while most ol' fashioned things still work good and work always!
But i must confess, been using the Leica Geovid now for quite some time and at nice wheather days i've been able to range up to 2650 meters (longest sofar), and trying to range targets at that range with my 10 x scope.....nope, just not done, at least not by me. ;)

Wellthen, i'll get to my second subject; Laser dangers.

I know of the dangers of some of the lasers, for instance, the ones MainBattleTanks like our Leopard 2A6's (best tank in the world, but thats another discusion and forum)use, are dangerous indeed, they are very powerfull and should be treated as if they were a gun, same as the rangefinders used by Fac-teams, very accurate, very powerfull but also very dangerous. But i personally think the dangeres of handheldlaser range finders are a bit exagurated.

Like i said, we use the leica Geovid, and although it is not wise to laser directly into ones eyes, it is no problem to laser at one another at longer distances (>300 meters).Many times i've been sitting as target while other students stalked me and ranged me (if i or the walker didnt spot them first)and i still have 20 20 vision.
This is how i've been taught and this is what i know, but ofcourse i dont know what can be bought at the civilian market but i can not believe that they sell more powerfull handheld lrf's than the military uses (unless you US citizens can get your hands on surplus russian stuff, very cheap these days, so i hear).
So finally, yes if you are in the military it is wise to invest in anti laser lenses for your scopes, but for the civilian's on the ranges (or hunters for that mather, but i don't think the deer will mind the laser as much as the 220 grain soft nose)i personally think ones money can be spend better than on all that laser protecion "fata morgana" stuff.
Anyways, i'll try to respond a bit sooner next time, because as always on this site, the subjects are very interesting.

One shot,one papertarget. (just to be on the safe side i keep using this politically correct version of ;one shot one kill, at least untill bush is president)

MP.
MP <Fwebel@casema.net>
the Hague, z-h, the Netherlands - Friday, January 05, 2001 at 22:08:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.96.98.222)

Rookie, Obermeyer, Krieger, K & P, Cooper, Hart.............if made properly, are as good as it gets.

Beware the vendor that "OFFERS", two or three "Grades", of barrels.

Caveat Emptor!!!!!

Billy B, your PSS will more than likely outshoot your abilities...the 1-12 twist will be fine for everything below 190 grain....and as lito' said, the 168's, and 175's run at 2650 plus.........will shoot lights out, if you can hold it.

I have owned six or seven over the years, and I've never had one that would not shoot under .5 moa............some need a bit of coaxing, but they will get it done.

Truly Evil
In the Evil Fiefdom!!

Lil Bro', is that something like Darth Evader???

Two Shoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 02:44:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.58)

Rookie asked about "best barrels". Most of the posts sum it well. I am a big fan of Obermeyer barrels. Unfortunately, there is a several year wait, usually. Buy several and tuck them a way.

Interestingly, Boot's Obermeyer recommends Jack Krieger's barrels if you want a "cut rifled" barrel (in a hurry). I have three Kreiger's on my hunting rifles and they are suberb in every way.

Boot's recommends Hart Barrels if you want a "button rifled" barrel. I have one on my Chandler Super Sniper and it is also excellent.

Bottom line, there are a number of makers out there that provide superlative tubes. Pick one, using either manufacturing technique, and you can't go wrong.

My personal preference is: Obermeyer, Kreiger, and Hart. In that order.

Other barrels of note are: Lilja, K&P, Pac-Nor, and Douglas Premium...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 03:48:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.20)

Well, we've got gunners with "gas" crawling out of the woodwork. Guys who want to make it like a "ROCK". God knows whats next. Dogs and cats sleeping together?

Bravo, may be onto something with his 6.5 Swede experiment. I didn't go that route for several reasons. Still think he'll wind up with a 6.5 X .284. If nothing else we got him thinking 6.5's and Bolt guns. THAT is progress! Well, that and the fact that I offered to loan him my reamer!

Still think he is the "evil gasgunner" incarnate, however. On the other hand, most of us took the easy route and went to Bolt's from the gitgo...had my fill of gas guns in the service. Bravo has me interested enough to upgrade my M1A match rifle and go from there. Should be a interesting trip and with compadre's like Bravo it should prove to be a fun one...;-)

Let's hold on the "swede vs .284" for now, Bravo. If for no other reason than I don't want to take advantage of you...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 04:21:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.20)

Steve: just something I've learned the hard way. Send it off. I've had too many things messed up by folks that TOLD ME that they were good smiths. There's a couple of top names on this site, and a few more for the asking. I'd rather send my rifle off, knowing it'll be a week and $30 or so to send it each way, but have it done R-I-G-H-T than have it screwed up pronto for less money. Something I learned the hard way.

Sir Wes: loaded up some more Swede rounds tonight while hanging out on the phone with the bro, I'm closing in fast on your charge weight. We'll see tomorrow how it goes. Started compressing H4831SC, so I'm betting that I've hit my realistic maximum. Here's the big swing for the X284 case. Seating depth. I've got 15/16" outside the neck, and I want that lever sticking out there to be minimized. So I'll take up some of that X284 case capacity with bullet, seating them deeper. Should keep me from turning a primo match grade round into a banana by shoving it up a feed ramp. Or at least that's my guess. Still, it's a good experiment, and one I don't regret doing! 3000 fps, here I come!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, not shaped like algors head, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 07:32:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.129)

Thanks for any info.

Dion
Dion <DSteph1202@aol.com>
Cumming (Yeah thats it's real name), Georgia, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 08:24:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.107)

LeMay,
a MOST EXCELLANT post on lights and colors. I like the presentation in easy to read format.
 

JR,

SoDak CRYO - RFLMAO!
You're telling me about SD wind??? I was on the Brown County swim team 1970-73 and have some fond memories of breaking through that skin of ice on the water surface during the AM relays. Talk about Cardio-Shock Trauma, Who was it, Annie Lennox that ung "Take my breath away"
Then getting out for some more of that soothing wind as you tried to dry off. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr N-E-V-E-R AGIN!!!!!!!
 

Ofta train!
 

'Lito,
Tell me its not true, YOU and that "biker gal" at WOODSTOCK in 196_ !!!!!!
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 14:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.107)

Gooch, when you have an address let me know so I can send the slings TRGT ordered.

George Gardner, you can bring the AR10 for me to shoot, but you have to carry the pig and the hills start at 7200 feet and go up from there. Temp will probably only be in the low 100's. You will wish you had a Rock. Speaking of which I taught a one day refresher/mostly movers yesterday and we played a game with The Rock at lunch time(My only time to shoot when teaching) They would shoot a hole at 200 yards and then I would put a bullet in it post haste.

JR. I have been shooting the loudenboomer/338 Lapua a great deal and it is fun except I have found that like a 50 if you shhot too much, over 100 rounds a day you will get a massive headache, not to mention suffer from wallet drain. That is a great bbl cleans up very fast and holds 1/2moa.

Rick, looks like I have to wait until March/April to play with the USMC. I got the schedule for this cycle and it comes down to either the family vacation or living in the truck and going to pendelton that week in Feb. Its been to cold to sleep in the truck lately so I have to wait.

Guys any of you that are going to the July class need to send in a deposit to Jarrett soon or you may miss out. Class is just about full.

On the IOR binos and scopes. The binos are the best for the cash I have ever seen. I would buy no other brand of binos. The scopes. I love some and some are OK. Basically I like all the scopes but the AR type. The 2.5x10 with 30mm tube is excellent. The optics are as good as any on the market and I mean any no matter what price. Jarret has one on his Rock because it is tough simple and world class. Pablito is correct on this. By the way IOR uses the same glass for lenses as Schmidt and Bender.

On rings I would stick with Badgers for everything. I have several 34mm Badger rings being made into 35 so I can replace the US Optics rings on my rifles. Badger is the best rings and bases at any price!
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 14:56:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Just wanted to share that tidbit with you and toot my Obermeyer and Krieger horn some. Everybody stay safe.

No Wind,
Terry Cross
Terry Cross / KMW - Long Range Solutions <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 15:16:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.107)

Mike - Wise choice Undude! That sleeping in truck during cold spells takes the fun out of the training! Mama would, of course, add to the misery in the normal "wifly ways".

Have fun guys just a quicky today. Lito are you two timing again?

Rick
 
 

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 16:22:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.189.71)

Plans are to sink 4"x4"x8' treated 2' deep at each hundred yard increment out to 1200 yards. That will give me 6' of post above the ground which can double as a mildot check. I plan on attaching various sizes of plywood to each post, screwed to one side of the plywood. Hence the first question, what size targets should I use out to 1200?

Second question; what kind of steel should I get for gongs and sillouettes?

Third question; what will be the best way to practice UK distance?

Fourth question: how the heck do I practice stalking by myself?

Fifth question; anybody have a good way to see if you hit the target at long distances without walking down to the target?

Last question; what percentage of shots should be taken from the bench, prone, offhand, etc.? I was thinking that I should only sight in and test from the bench and then all the rest of the shots should be taken as they will be for the Rendezvous.

OK guys put them pointy heads to work! Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 17:28:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.171)

CDC,
Yep, Model 25... pretty version of S&W's M1917...
 

Bravo,
Interesting AR-10 thread over there. I'm partial to the M16A2 family, since I slept with one in my sleeping bag SO many times (thank you Marine Corps) so I've kinda been wanting an AR-10 as a "toy" with the bigger caliber. Followed one of their links there to a fellow's page who's been building other calibers... I'm thinking it's too long to work, but wouldn't a 6.5x284 AR-10 be sweet? heh heh..... now that'd be a gun!
 

Okay, gotta get off my duff and get outside away from this computer... have a good day, all!!
 

-Leslie
 
 
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 18:28:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.205)

Bolt,
4x4's? I though we had agreed on 2x4's turned thin side towards shooter. Pat Murphy mentioned using the plates (scrap sourced of course) used to secure rails were a durable target and could be assembled to make a larger target. Studebaker parts will spark for you to spot from what I hear *:-0
If I was THAT LUCKY, an std size iron maiden would be placed at the side of each static distance target frame.
 

FWIW #1 son went through a 1 hour Cardio class with me and did not break a sweat........... Geez Depity Dave, Its time to pass me that Geritol!!!!
 

PS Marius posted some more Sniper Rendezvous pix in the photo gallery, anybody else that has some feel free to send them in.
Chainsaw Ken - What about that video footage?????????????
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM.>
BenGay & Icey Hot CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 18:52:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.11)

What do you guys think: Betty Lou the wonder M-25 against a stack of PSG-1's. 600 yards prone slung slow, off the bench, and rapid prone. I think that was what was illuded to (VBG). Isn't it SOP for the shark to make the chum ask to be eaten? I provide beer, then talk "wagering" ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 20:14:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.213)

Stuart Meyers of Operational Tactics forwarded this to me, and I know that it will be good information for some of our visitors, both regulars and others. I have not scanned the Roster ($%^$#^% slow link!) to see if this, or similar, has already been posted.

Read and take care, ESPECIALLY our LE guys.

Marius

==================

Fellow Tactical Officers,

I am sure all of you join me in expressing sorrow over the recent death of
Officer Aubrey Hawkins of the Irving Police Department. On Christmas Eve,
Officer Hawkins was answering a "Suspicious Person" call at an
Oshman's Sporting Goods store in Irving, TX. As Officer Hawkins pulled
around the rear of the store, he was ambushed and killed.

The suspect's actions, tactics used, and weapon information is something
that every SWAT officer needs to be aware of.

The suspects in this case are the seven recently escaped fugitives from a
TDC unit near San Antonio. The prison break occurred approximately two
weeks prior to Officer Hawkins death. After the prison break, one
fugitive left behind a note that said, "You haven't heard the last of us." In
the prison break, which TDC officials describe as "one of the most violent
and well-planned break" they have seen, the seven suspects
overpowered guards and left with fourteen .357 revolvers, one
semi-automatic Colt AR-15, one Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun, and over
200 rounds of ammunition.

It is believed they then robbed a Radio Shack store in Pearland, near
Houston and took walkie-talkies and cellular phones. The suspects then
relocated in the Dallas area and cased out the Oshmans store in Irving.
It is also believed that the suspects committed a BMV of an Oshmans
employee's vehicle a few days before the incident. Then, one of the
suspects dressed as a security guard from ADT, went to the store and
spoke with the Oshmans manager. They stated they were doing a security
check of Oshmans after the BMV incident. They showed the manager a
photo lineup and even obtained the film from the security camera. Two days

after that incident, the suspects were in the process of robbing the
Oshmans store when the Irving Police received a call regarding a suspicious
person.

During the robbery, witnesses state that at least one of the suspects was
wearing an Oshman's shirt. Witnesses also state that the suspects used
radios and had a police scanner with them during the robbery. During the
robbery, the suspects stole 31 pistols, seven 12-gauge shotguns, and three
.22 caliber rifles.

Officer Hawkins was killed while still in his vehicle. Officer Hawkins was shot
from three different directions. Once he was killed, Officer Hawkins' body
was removed from the vehicle and his bulletproof vest and Glock 9mm were
taken. Officer Hawkins was then shot numerous times again.

Since this incident, the suspects haven't been seen or heard from despite
an intense investigation.

The resulting investigation has revealed many important points to be aware
of. You can obtain information about the prison break and the suspects on
the TDC website at www.tdcj.state.tx.us

There are two particular suspects that are worth mentioning. One is George
Rivas. Rivas is described as the leader of the group and over a two-year
period in prison, assembled this group and planned the prison break. In the
early 1990's, Rivas committed numerous robberies with the same type of
M.O.

In 1993, while in El Paso, Rivas and two other suspects committed a very
similar robbery of a Toys R Us store. A good-eye or lookout was stationed
outside with a M-14 while Rivas and another suspect entered the store and
were in the process of robbing the store when the El Paso Police
Department arrived. For some reason, the good-eye had gone inside as
well. Efforts to call on the phone and loud hail were met with negative
results. The good-eye did emerge from the store and claimed he was a
hostage. The El Paso SWAT team made entry as Rivas and the second
suspect were taking the store manager up a ladder leading to the roof.
After the eight hostages were rescued, a slow search found Rivas and his
partner hiding in the roof area. A member of the El Paso SWAT team later
stated that he was thankful the good eye had gone inside because during
the incident, they were short handed and had paid no attention to the good
eye vehicle. Inside the vehicle, they found two M-14 rifles and disguises.

The second suspect that you should be made aware of is Larry Harper.
Harper is the son of a former Sgt. Major with the U.S. Army. His father was
in the Green Berets and Harper had informally trained with his
fathers unit numerous times. Harper was also a Captain in the US Army
reserves in an artillery unit. Prior to his arrest for aggravated sexual
assault, Harper was accepted to Annapolis and West Point. Harper was
described as a "wannabe" but was constantly reading special operations
literature.

In all of Rivas' crimes, the crime has been well planned; the suspects have
communications equipment, body armor, and are heavily armed. There is
always a well-armed good eye and disguises are usually used. They
usually rob a store that has weapons and they usually hit near closing time.

These felons are a serious threat to any law enforcement officer that
encounters them. Most of these suspects have life sentences and it is
believed they will not go without a fight. Given the armament they possess
and the violence they have shown, whichever city they go to next will have
their hands full.

Please be sure and relate to your officers that these suspects always plan
their robberies very well. They usually dress as an employee or security
guard. They always have a well-armed good eye outside the
premises. They usually wear body armor, and have a tremendous amount
of firepower. Also, in the Oshmans incident, they attempted to use a smoke
grenade but were unsuccessful.

To ensure the safe resolution of this problem, it will take the cooperation of
many agencies and superb tactics from superb officers. Please plan
accordingly.

Thank you and be safe.

Michael Finley
President
Texas Tactical Police Officers Association
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 20:14:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.202)

First off let me say, I'm no sniper. I am in the PA National Guard, and face nothing there more challenging than a 25yd M16 Qualification once a year, and nothing more dangerous than MRE's. That said, here's what I'm asking.

What's the cheapest way to go from zero to a 1/2" group at 1oo yds? I'm new to precision rifles. So new, I haven't got one yet. I have a deer rifle, but around here all the deer are substantially larger than 1/2", and you typically get them a lot closer than 1oo yds. The Deer rifle is a Savage arms model FXP 11 chambered in .308 with a cheesey Tasco 3-9X scope.

I'm looking to get into reloading as well. If the 1/2 moa rifle is in .308, more's the better. Then I can save on reloading dies.

And, of course, I realize that the shooter is a very large part of the equation. What I want is a rifle system capable of going there, so that I know how well I am shooting, and that if I practice, I can go there too.

So, I'm looking for info on cartridges, scopes, rifles and reloading. I'm willing to do the homework, and practice regularly,I just don't have the cash to buy the wrong stuff.

I suspect it will be easy for the experts to agree on a specific setup. (Hardy Har)

Randy

Randy <coldstar@usachoice.com>
Franklin, PA, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 20:31:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.166.67.122)

Hey, I heard some rumblings about finding a 30-06 length action in m700 to convert into 6.5 x 284, I have been seeing more and more 721's in the pawn shops and used gun stores as of late, and most of them are 270 wins or 30-06. Would there be a problem with this action?? I wouldn't think so, I built my 300 Win Mag on a 721 and she is as sound as could be. But I figure I'd check with the experts here.

Only problem I have with the 6.5 x 284 is I think the cartridge is too long to be able to seat the 140's in a 'short' action, and if you use a long action you may as well go with the 270, don't ya think?? I'm just adding fuel to a firestorm on this, I know, but it's the best way to learn, eh??

I think this will be the biggest problem concerning the 'newer' short action 'magnum' type rounds, they will be limited to shorter lighter weight bullets, which is ok for hunting, and they will get some velocity increases, but take for example the 300 WSM, it will probably never replace the 300 win mag, and for 'short' actions the 308 will most likely maintain the standard for accuracy. But, I'm no expert on these things, I'm as full of smoke as the next guy, I've just read about and seen 'ultimate cartridges' come and go, and the ol' tried and true just keep on clickin'. The good thing about Big Green and USRA coming out with new cartridges is that you know there will be ammo out there to shoot, and there will be brass to reload.

take it easy kids
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 23:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.14)

What's the biggest effect that the discussion over there has had on me? Once George Gardner chimed in it left me wanting a 260Rem upper for my AR10 in a really bad way. About the best my mouse gun AR15 is good for is the 500-600 yard line because past there I'm pretty sure I'm gonna flat out run out of scope elevation. The AR10 upper would need a base on it to throw some additional MOA back into the scope.

Bravo did a great job getting a couple of these guys to think about getting together for a shoot and he might just pull it off. I'm willing to get out of Ca. just to go play spectator and get some trigger time behind this M25 I keep hearing so much about as well as some of the other guns that might show up. I'd bring the mouse gun too if it pans out to be the type of shoot where a 223 won't get laid to shame.

I keep trying to tell the guys to hold the shoot some place where when the serious stuff is all said and done our group can break up and go off to do battle with members of the Varmint Cong. I could see taking along a variety case of Vmax for shooting P-dogs after the gas gun debate has been laid to rest in person.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 23:40:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

Suprise, suprise, the guy from Texas Tactical Officer's Forum I believe it was, had better information than us media scum got from Associated Press. I was told by our newsroom that Hawkins was killed outside his vehicle, and I didn't know it was in a crossfire, or that that many weapons were taken (I'd assumed being an Oshmans it would be mostly shotguns and a rifle or two).
 

Despite how low some of these criminals are, classifying the second guy (the ex-officer) as a "wannabe" seems sort of weird to me, since he was in fact a reservist Captain, just in the wrong branch.

I myself haven't been "in" any special operations group, though I read a lot of the literature out of interest in the field, so I guess a lot of us here could be classified as "wannabes" though in fact, I know I'd never make it in most of those groups (not in good enough shape) though hopefully this time next year I'll be in the state trooper academy in Texas.

Just some random thoughts.
 

Brian Fulton <blfulton45@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 03:09:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.131.100)

More 6.5 X .284...or what I have gleened so far in my research and use:

First, to answer a recent question you CAN use the 6.5 X .284 in either a long or short action. It's your choice.
With the short action you're going to have to seat deeply and stay with a max length of 2.800". This can be done and good velocities are still attainable. See this months Precsion Shooting for and article on the 6.5/06 IMP. and the 6.5 X .284. So, the answer is: "You CAN have it your way"...
With the '06 length action you have more OAL to play with...
I use 2.98" because my reamer was designed to the Black Hills Specification and works well. No reason why you couln't seat out to 3.290" or so, but you really don't need to as the powder capacity in the 6.5 X .284 is correct.

Barrel life seems to be an issue. Frankly, when mine is shot out I'll rebarrel and be a happy camper. To date I have no direct contacts that say "mine was shot out in 1,300 rounds" In fact I have had several that claim 1,500 and still going. One 6MM x .284 shooter has three rifles, in that caliber, and two that have each fired 1,500 rounds each. They still hold .3 groups.

It appears, from posts, that barrel life is dependent on three things.
Intensity of the load, shooting the barrel when hot, and cleaning as often as possible. Lot's of variables. Interestingly, no one has claimed moly coating extended the barrel life.

Based on input, I'm going to expect 2,000 rounds or more with my 6.5 Hart Barrel.

On Stan's efforts with the 6.5 Swede...
My guess is he is going to break 3,000 FPS. He's also using the same powder I am in the .284 variant: Hogdon's H4831SC. This appears to be an excellent powder and a cool burner to boot. More accuracy testing is needed, but it does better than I can, at this point.
The velocity champ is Reloader 22. Some are reporting 3,100 FPS with this powder. I suspect they are paying a price in barrel life with these loads. Vihtavouri N165 is another popular powder, but I have not yet used it. Folk's, we need to gather and share more data!

Finally, someone asked about 95 grain V-MAX bullets in the 6.5 X .284.
Personally, I only shoot 140 to 142 grain weights, so really can't comment. I would think 3,400-3,500 FPS should be attainable. I'll stick with the heavier match stuff myself, as I use my rifle as a Tactical piece and not a varminter.

All for now...

S/F

Wes
 

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 04:11:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.68)

Are mercury-filled recoil reducers of any value in a rifle? If so,
is there a preferred location to place these; forearm or buttstock?

Thank you,

M Fish
M Fish <mfappr@earthlink.net>
CO, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 04:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.191.173.74)

I don't know about the mercury recoil reducer in a rifle, but I once wasted $80 or so on one for a pistol. I would shoot the two of same pistols side by side, one with and one without and I could not tell them apart. Hell, maybe I 'm stupid, but I didn't feel an $80 difference!

My .02 spend the $$$ on better optics, bases, rings, slings ammo, and Bravo Brew!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 06:23:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Mr B
Brandon <mista_b1@hotmail.com>
Ontario, Canada - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 06:47:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.209.182.12)

Niels <hallo@12move.nl>
haaarlem, ?, The Nederlands - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 13:02:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.240.223.157)

Niels...
Send the link you spoke of to:

webmaster@snipercountry.com

... and I'm sure he will include it somewhere... he's a GOOD GUY ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 13:12:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.30)

And staying polite to our US friends, translated in english;
Howdy Niels, would apreciate it if you'd contact me.

Nec Temere Nec Timide,
MP.
MP <fwebel@casema.net>
the Hague , Z-H, NL - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 13:45:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.96.98.222)

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 13:47:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.102.62)

I don't know if this link has been posted here before, or not. Anyways, I'm passing it along as a courtesy to those who have not yet visited the site.

The address is: http://www.isayeret.com/sniping/article.htm

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I know I did.

All the best...
Jeff Babineau <sales@targetshootingsupplies.com>
Canada - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 13:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.96.62)

MP.

Omni Sunt Hostes.
MP <fwebel@casema.net>
the Hague , Z-H, NL - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 14:44:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.96.98.222)

Just saw a mysterious remark under some of the pictures, namely this; "Note that unlike some of their western counterparts, the Israeli snipers don’t carry both their SWS and their personal issued assault rifle, but rather just the SWS."

Is there someone on the roster who knows of a country who's snipers carry both a bolt action and an assault rifle at the same time? (instead of a pistol as backup).

To mr Bravo, maybe you should check out the site aswell if you haven't already, they got some pictures of your favorite m25 turned into a bullpup version (as long as you don't think of it as being sacreligous) ;)

Cya around,

MP.
 
 
 

MP <fwebel@casema.net>
the Hague , Z-H, NL - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 16:01:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.96.98.222)

Mr. Brandon
VarXII 3X9 mil dot. as a tactical scope;
If you used the mil dot system to determine the range then you would be faced with having to correct the holdover. Since this scope has no clicks you could only determine the dots and hold over based on your interpolation of the same scale you used to determine the range and thus inject the possiblity that you would double your error in most cases. My answer would be no... it is not a good starter scope. Move up to the 4.5X14X14 Leupold. You will have more vertical adjustment in the reticle and the target turrets will take you to the center target if you do the dot reading correctly.

While I wonder if the 6.5X284 won't be the only one left standing when it's over.... is there a good reason to go short action 6.5X284 over a .260 Remington. I'm thinking this .260 will find it's place as a Gas Gun cartridge or at least be desirable in that direction. It is also well suited to the lightweight hunting rifles such as the MOdel 7 Remington. Or lightweight Savage Sierra. This post is not designed to eliminate either one but we have a family going now .260 6.5x.284
6.5-06 .264 win magnum if you will. One wonders which niche will survive.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 16:08:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Yeah, what he said!
I've spent at least twice what was required getting to where I am.
Then consider I had to equip my spotter too.
If you can't afford the best right now, wait and save up.

I spent $400 on a Tobasco 10X42SS for Andy just to turn around and spend another $800 to get him a Loopy a year and a half later.

To get in the game it is a $2,500 proposition no matter how you cut it not counting all the extra gear. Before you get sticker shock check out the entry costs to some other activities. (snowmobiles, dirtbikes, bass boats, four-wheelers, scuba diving or sky diving) A really good mountain bike will set you back a cool grand any day.

I'd start out by spending my money on books and the long range shooting CD from Shooter Ready then train while you save. Then read this board everyday but ignore all the gas-gun drivel it will only make you crazy. ;-p
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 16:36:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.208.204)

Ned
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
5R, MI, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 17:28:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.16)

Jerry: you can't come in, make us wonder, and then leave! HA! At least tell me it's not my Kreiger LOL

MP and Jeff: good stuff over there. I liked the political slam on the Israeli president as well. On the M-14 type switch around, I look at it like this: a shorter and lighter weapon is a true benefit for CQB and stuff like that. For a sniper / spotter rifle I don't see it as any kind of major step up. Kind of like what they said about the Galil sniper version..... there isn't any improvement on the M-21's to warrant a change over. If they wanted to upgrade the systems they had, there was PLENTY of room.... which they did! HA!

Wild Bill: don't forget the 6.5 Swede in there. I've got a hunch that I could make people "believers" on that round. Seriously!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 17:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.119)

SIR (infantile) WES and any other ROASTER RATS.... have any of you
guys heard of this new AR-10? If so, what do know about it, and what
do you think of the .260 conversion?

JR.... you mentioned the .270 along with the 6.5-'06! Both are great
hunting cartridges, as you well know. I do about 75% of my big game
hunting with two .270 rifles that I've had for years, using the old
Jack O'Connor load. A HUGE obsticle in the way of any .270 even being
considered as a tac or target round is- I don't recollect ANY match
grade bullets ever being made by any manufacturer in .277 dia. But
you already knew that, didn't you, flame bait?
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 20:14:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.81)

Pat T
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 20:28:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.109.150)

Just kidding with the "gas gun drivel" statement. Jeeeshh!!!

My spotter, Andy, would much rather pack his M-4 than his bolt gun any day. He loves that thing and he can hit with it too.

(My bet is that he'd the only kid in his class with an M-4.)

Going into a hostile, close range, target rich environment armed with a .308 bolt gun is no way to reach retirement age. We agree on that. But if there is just the two of you no matter what you're armed with you're in serious trouble.

Do you think a semiautomatic is the best choice for a sniper's weapon?

Do you think that a sniper should carry both a bolt gun and an AR?

I'm working on my 24" Armalite M15A4T as a possible compromise but when the wind comes up and the targets are "past the slag pile" I'll be handicapped for sure.

Good night.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 22:02:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.201)

I've just returned from Fort Stewart, Georgia, to attend the funeral of Chief Warrant Officer 2, United States Army (Retired) Dick Cole, an old family friend. Dick joined the Navy in 1949, retired from the Army, then worked for the the Army as an Education Specialist, doing what he could to help thousands of soldiers earn college credits and degrees. He retired last year after 50 years service.

The service was excellent, a full Catholic mass. The padre knew Dick very well.

Full military honors were rendered by an exceptionally sharp firing squad from the 1st Ranger Battalion at Hunter Army Airfield.

One of the toughest things I have ever done, because Dick was a true friend and soldier, was the end of the mass. The squad leader was very professional.

"Squad, at-ten SHUN!

Half right, FACE!

Ready. Aim. FIRE!" Three volleys from M4 carbines. The uninitiated, mostly the family and civilian friends, and old soldiers years removed from battlefields start at the rifle fire.

The bugler plays taps -- the long and traditional farewell to brothers in arms. The squad leader collects a cartridge from each volley, and they are folded into the tri-folded Colors.

I salute the flag, at slow ceremonial speed, and take it from him. I walk to Marie, bow down to her, and hand her the flag.

"On behalf of the President of the United States, I present this flag to you as a token of thanks from a grateful nation in recognition of Dick's service to our country."

I salute again, and the ceremony is over.

Good bye, friend.
 
 
 
 

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 22:03:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.22.25)

The state finally got their paperwork done, now the wife has her brand new CCW, as of yesterday. Now to find that good little revolver and stick it in her purse ;-)
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, 1/26,000,000 safer, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 22:06:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.114)

Patron Dave: my condolences. 50 years is longer than I've ever heard of. Something to be proud of to be sure.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 22:28:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.114)

Interesting posts. I see we are back to the gas vs bolt argument. In the target rich environment that YOU control the gas gun would have a place. If it's anything else, the bolt gun will do...in either case have multiple escape routes planned...

Carry a gas gun and a bolt gun? Not only no, but hell no! If it's for a contingency why not carry LAAW rockets, etc? Catch my drift? You've got to be MOBILE. On the other hand, a properly placed Claymore can slow the bad guys down enough to give you time to boogie...;-)

Let's see, the 260 in an AR-10? Why not, but why not in an M-14/M1A?
They've been putting 243's in M1A's for years. The 260 makes good sense to me.

Hey, Bravo. Give you $500 for your M25...now that you need a new one in a REAL caliber! Hell, why not a 6.5 X .284 limited to 2.800" OAL in the AR-10? I've already got one 6.5 x .284 project. Any of you stalwarts want to take this on...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 22:32:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.21)

Thanks for the thoughts on mercury recoil reducers. More money for ammo!

M. Fish
M. Fish <mfappr@earthlink.net>
CO, USA - Sunday, January 07, 2001 at 23:47:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.133.170.229)

Bravo; Yes, the 6.5 S. is a good round and has the same advantage as the .260 that everyone seems to miss. Long Barrel life and cool barrels under heavy use. The Ballistics are there even at low speed and that's the beauty of em both.

Group; History bears me out that many snipers carried M-14's in addition to the Sniper Rifle... in wars where the enemy's zest for casualties seems high. Although that seems unthinkable to lug another rifle into combat ....the history is there. Carlo's Hathcock was one of the exceptions I believe. I think I know why....he wore the White Feather.
If you saw the feather your courage to charge might be a little squelched. I like to think that anyway.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 08, 2001 at 00:35:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

You might want to consider putting a few washers on each of the bolts so that they hold the iron maden about - say 1/2" away from the post. Snug the bolts up of course. That way - the post won't soak up all that beautiful music when you hit it with a bullet.
It'll really go clllllaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnngggggg then.

Dave:
Im kinda familiar with that 'heaviness' of emotion at those funerals. I was in charge of the rifle squad part of our base burial detail for my last 2 months on active duty. Taps always gets to me.

Hold Hard & Squeeze steady - hogs!

Ken (workin' to get those .22 CB's to go thru the same hole!)

Ken Hunter <Hunterkr@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, January 08, 2001 at 01:06:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

http://www.nc1000ydshooters.com/
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Monday, January 08, 2001 at 01:37:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.163)

Israeli Snipers:

Interestingly enough the other day my neighbor showed me a copy of Soldier of Fortune (he reads it, I don't) with an article written by an Israeli Civil Defense Group (?) volunteer police sniper on the recent mixup over there, since he knows I've been there in the past, and the guy wrote that he was equipped with a Mauser 98k in .308 set up for sniping, along with an M1 Carbine and pistol, and that he upgraded his equipment to a new AR-10 in .308 that he after much begging and pleading got from the US (State Dep't wouldn't let it be shipped overseas or something like that) and if I remember right, he took it out on duty as well as the carbine.. well written article I thought, and worth taking a look at. It was this month's copy I believe, if you see it on the newsstand.

Being a Civil Defense volunteer guy he might operate under different rules than the IDF snipers as far as equipping themselves goes, but from what I've seen over there the average Israeli grunt has some personal leeway on how their weapons and gear are set up.
 

Brian Fulton <blfulton45@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 08, 2001 at 01:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.131.100)

I've got the Tactical version of the Vari-X III on top of my Savage 110FLP (the scope cost more than the rifle!), but not the LR version... mine has the normal target turrets instead. It's a good scope, same optics as the LR, but it's a 1" tube and doesn't have the side-focus. I don't have mil-dots, thinking about adding them at some point, but will probably get an LR w/ 'em instead and keep this one as a second scope as-is. Even if you don't have the $$$ to get a LR, at least get a plain-jane Vari-X III.
 
 

Sir Wes:
I quote you as posting at January 07, 2001 at 22:32:03:
"Hell, why not a 6.5 X .284 limited to 2.800" OAL in the AR-10? I've already got one 6.5 x .284 project. Any of you stalwarts want to take this on..."

If you scroll up, to my post Saturday, January 06, 2001 at 18:28:47:
"I'm thinking it's too long to work, but wouldn't a 6.5x284 AR-10 be sweet? heh heh..... now that'd be a gun!"

Sounds like "great" minds think alike! ;-)

Anyway, I think you're right... if you keep the 6.5x284 down to a 2.800" OAL, it should fit in the M-14 magazines, right? So it should be possible, right??

Hmmmm....... Sounds like someone's gonna have to give it a go....
 
 

L8R,

-Leslie
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Monday, January 08, 2001 at 03:46:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.77.119)

Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Monday, January 08, 2001 at 04:42:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.86.249.22)