January 15, 2000 - January 21, 2000

Question:
Does anyone have any courses to recommend regarding survival? I'm not talking about little mini- "boot camp" courses, or high-dollar country-club affairs. I'm interested in something that really concentrates on woodcraft skills that would be useful in a mission consisting of a long-range deployment w/o resupply capabilities. I'm not wanting something that would be a 'commando' school, per se, but something like that would be probably pretty close. Maybe not even gun-related, more like a hippie living in the wild-type of situation might offer the kinds of things I'm interested in. [I do have one or two in mind already (Tom Brown), but I thought I'd throw this out to see if I could get you all to turn up some others that I don't know about.]

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 00:44:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.223) 

Regarding drag bags. I have heard a lot of different things about drag bags. What is a drag bag supposed to really do? I ask this because I am into making my own stuff. I sew all my "sniper" cammies to MY specifications and such. If someone could give me the criteria on a dream drag bag I'll try and put it together. What I am using now is a cammie pack cover with a ponch liner to pad the gun. I ahve a stow away padded slin for over the shoulder carry, like MG style. You 0331s know what I mean. Then I have alice pack straps to carry the whole rig like a back pack. I have a quck release system that I use to get the gun "up". It (the gun) can be in position in less than 8 seconds. It's cheap and it works. Total cost? $25!
What on God's Earth is a slope doper? What does it look like? How do I obtain one?

Jim Mitchell,

I saw your load for the .308/7.62 NATO. I've used that load before and found that 43.0gr of Varget does wonders. I have some LC brass, but I don't use it very often because it is a real MFer to FL resize. I don't know what the hell they make it out of but I do know that it has a higher content of zinc in it than commercial stuff.

All,

Where can I buy 173gr FMJ/BTs at? No one, and I mean no one seems to have them. I had several thousand for plinking and now I'm down to about 150, maybe.

Has anyone tried the Barns 165gr Solid bronze .308" dia. boat tails? The deal is this. I am researching the .308 Winchester for precision target and hunting applications. Eventually I will publish my findings. I hate looking up a load only to see minimal amount of data on the subject.
Would anyone be interested in a website dedicated to all aspects of reloading? Hunting, target, tactical, plinking, handguns and so on? If so I am looking for a few folks willing to assist in puting it together. Once I get a good PC I intend to have photos, video, and reader contributions all inclusive. It's a long shot that will take time. I am hoping to have balistic software so one may download their results from their chronograph and all you need is a mouse. I think it is a worth while project. I like SC but it seems that I only visit the duty roster.
Sorry about my over reaction to the military/l.e. thing. I saw that Sellguns.com is off the net now, pissed me off too. I love my country so much and my Constitution more so that it pisses me off that animal pornogrphy and other sick sh*t is tolorated, yet when it comes to basic freedoms for you and I we seem to matter not. I piss in the face of communism, socialism, liberalism, and all that is un-American. This nation shall recover as we always do. When I think of another Democrat White House all I see is a giant boot stomping on freedom and those people who hold it as sacred as religion.
Suggestion, would it be possible at the begining of the Duty Roster, before the warnings, to have a daily or weekly quote from one of our founding fathers? Thomas Pane, Ethan Allen, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and other great men? Ithink it would be absolutly motivating!
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 02:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.74) 

Thanks for the info on the SS10X42 manual. I called Tasco today and they're sending one out, but it sounds as if it won't be of much use.

Just what is the deal with the dot spacing? Is it really 1 mil, despite the info on Tasco's site? Tasco's site shows a 6.60" spacing at 100 yds, and a measurement of 0.50" that I "assume" is the dot diameter @ 100 yds. Definitely not a 1 mil spacing or a .75 MOA dot! So far I've just been able to fondle the scope, since the rifle hasn't arrived here yet. It's somewhere between the distributor, Jersey City Armory, and Memphis! Probably safe to say it's on a brown truck though :-) Anyway, I haven't been able to determine for myself what the spacing is.

I realize this was probably beat to death here on the roster before I arrived, so please feel free to point me somewhere off the roster.

Finally, thanks again to everyone. The response to my questions, both on the roster and by e-mail, has been overwhelming.

Mark

Mark <madriver@bellsouth.net>
Memphis, TN, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 05:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.194.211) 

Scott, your description of the bravery of their shooters goes along with what was said by an old Japanese gentelman I met who said in those days, they beleived that in his words "duty weighs like a mountain while death is as light as a feather". as for the regular soldiers being great shots, I beleive while they were helping to put down the Boxer rebellion in China the Japanese said that they would come back and match the Marines abilities in shooting in the next war. At least thats what is says in the American Rifleman magazine from a few years back.

Steve, thanks for the added information on Japanese reticles, I had heard the they were made of human hair to make them extreamly fine but had no idea they were as complex as you describe.I hope to study one for myself at somepoint.

Next stop is to Barnes and Noble to track down some of the books that have been suggested. Please keep the information coming folks every lead and tip helps.
J. Baker <catchdatrout@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 05:50:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.194.43) 

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 05:58:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.225) 

I would just like to thank everyone who responded to my question about replacing my Rem. 700. I know you guys have answered similar questions dozens of times before, so special thanks for helping me out. I couldn't have asked for better advice than I received. You are all real gentlemen.

Ryan Lloyd

Ryan Lloyd <BFG@home.com>
Penticton, British Columbia, Canada - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 06:47:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.66.179.19) 

I got both the Slope Doper, and the Mildot Master. The Slope Doper is used to determine the corrected elevation to the target. This is needed when shooting uphill, or downhill. The Mildot Master has this feature, but is not as precise.
If you want to see one check out Storm Mountain website, and click on the Supply Room. They sell both items there. If you got a Mildot Reticle on your scopes, then by all means order these two little thingies. I have had nothing but good results with these, and my Mildot Scope.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 13:55:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.173) 

I was thinking of putting a 3/4 Mil-dot reticle in my Leupold 6.5-20x50mm. Will the slope doper and the mil-dot master still work with the power change from 10x to 20x? If so, will Leupold have the literature to support the scope? Or will I just convert all the data? I can't afford to buy a new scope right now. When I can afford a scope I think I will go for a pair of Tasco SS10x42M scopes. One for my bolt jobbie and one for the M1A.
Thanks in advance.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 19:21:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.149) 

300Win Mag 190's: If any one has the info on what the military load data is please give it to me. Jerry is just about done and I need to roll some 190's

Drag Bags: I recently used a bag from Eagle, that just folds over the rifle and doubles as a mat. I used it at the Hathcock Match and loved it.

Tasco Super Sniper Scopes are one mildot spaced. That was a military requirement.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 22:02:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.53) 

I believe something similar to Re-22 was used for the development of the A-191 load. 3.500" OAL at least according to the stuff I got from NSWC-Crane. specs call for 190 MK @ 2900 fps/ + or -50 fps

H-1000 at between 78.0 -79.5 grains should do the trick, just some free time and a chrono my friend.............

The Hodgdons H-1000 is the same family as Varget [ BIG :-) ], and has shown real good consistency with me so far during during my load development.
 

Jeff A.

Emersons Rule! and look real good next to a Kimber Classic Too.

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 22:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.36) 

TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Wynona's big brown beaver state, Oregon, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 23:35:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.198) 

Do any of you know any good links where I could learn everything I ever wanted to know about Service Rifle/Hi-Power competition? I'm especially interested in weapons specs. If there are any shoots of this nature here in KY, it is as closely guarded a secret as the whereabouts of Jimmy Hoffa!
Thanks for your help

John
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
KY, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 04:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.88) 

We shoot HighPower matches at Ft Knox Ky on the Scott Mountain Range. The season starts in April, and runs thru the end of Sept. We usually start the season with an "M1 Clinic", and then shoot a Regional Match Course ( 80 shots for record ) once a month. We also shoot 2 or 3 Long Range 1000yd matches a year too.
There are a couple of other places to shoot in the area too. Camp Atterbury Indiana, Southern Indiana Rifle and Pistol club near Borden Indiana, and the Miami Valley gun club east of Cincinati Ohio. These are all full distance ranges, out to at least 500yds. I will email you some info on Ft Knox match dates.
You're right about Highpower being a big secret in this area. It is not intentional, it just seems to work out that way.
There are also some ranges that shoot a reduced distance course.
Feel free to email me if you like.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 04:22:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.37) 

BK:
Mil-dots are only calibrated for the highest power setting on zoom scopes. However, you could work up your own tables for what the mil-dots mean at the lower power.... essentially learning two sets of mil-dots, but you could then use it at either end of the power range.

The Slope Doper is essentially an upside down protractor with a pendulum.... but really nice, made for field use specifically for shooting.

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 05:36:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.186) 

Ahhhhh! Went shooting today, first time in about a month. Relaxation is beat on the range. Actually in the woods. With two .44s and a .45 LC. Those 300gr FP are awesome! I love my single actions, they have such classy lines and a feel like no other. The stag horn grips are a nice touch too. I shot my .44 Special 2" Bulldog today and that thing is great for those encounters that are up close and personal. I think I will invest in some Glasers for it, since the Geneva Convention only applies to troops and not armed intruders.

Leslie,

Would an M2 compass work? They are pricey but NICE! I am still tossing the idea around about a laser range finder. I just have reservations of relying on anything electronic in the field. If I get one I will master the use of mil-dots first. Two systems are better than one.

300 Win mag.

I think the load that I used was a 200gr MK with IMR-4350. I have noticed that the .300 Win can be fickle with IMR-4350 though. I am going to devote the Spring to my .300 Win. using 175s and some nice 168s too.

About the invite tomorrw @ Sac Valley,

Can't make it. Sorry gents, perhaps next week. My buddy is leaving for Border Patrol Academy next week and we are planning a few shoots to celebrate. Then I am off to P.O.S.T. academy myself. May the winds be calm for you and your target clear.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 07:21:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.76) 

Brunton (the M2 compass people) also make a line of inclinometers, about the size of a small pocket calculator... you sight along it, and read the angle through the window.

Pablito.
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 14:16:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60) 

In addition to Brunton, Suunto makes some nice site-thru inclinometers that I've used in doing cave mapping... tough, durable, can handle mud and wet, easy to use even in the dark...

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 16:11:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.236) 

I decided against US rifles (eg Remington)because all my reading seems to indicate that they require some degree of gunsmithing out-of-the-box. I wouldn't buy a new car if it had to go straight to a mechanic before I could use it -why do you accept this for your rifles? (or am I wrong?)(I might otherwise have chosen a Fluted Varmint Synthetic).

Finally, having read the Hot Tips and Cold Shots section on'Magnus Effect' and 'Drift' may I bore you with my (extremely long range and very big bullet!) knowledge of the area:

Magnus Effect / Drift: Talking in artillery terms; we gunners are aware of (but ignore) the Magnus Force that is created by a spinning object passing through air. Magnus Force is a minor effect compared to 'drift'. Drift is caused by the pressure of the air flow on the nose of a shell. A properly stabilised shell will always be slightly 'nose up' to the air flow (because the trajectory always falls away from its angle of departure). If you remember your physics you may recall that weird law of gyroscopes (of which a shell (or bullet!) is an extremely powerful example)that means that if you try to push it one way, it actually moves at right angles to the force. The shell is slightly nose up, therefore the air pressure tries to lift the nose. Because the shell is a gyroscope, this lifting force actually (for a clockwise spinning shell) moves the shells nose to the right. Other movements occur, too many to detail here, but the net effect is that the shell assumes an average position of the nose being high and right to the air flow. Being 'high and right' means that more air pressure builds on the left of the shell; this pushes the shell to the right. The effect, obviously, increases with range.

Very Interesting Site!
Matt
 

Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 16:17:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.35) 

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 17:36:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60) 

Leslie, not all scopes are set for mil dots at max power. I believe some Leupolds with variable magnification capabities higher than 10X are set up around 12X or so and have a little dot on the power ring to mark it.

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 18:22:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.146) 

I am planing a FTX for next weekend, any good ideas what to do in shit weather ! We will make some regular sniper stuff / ranges, sketches, stalk, radiowork, plus some of the following: shelter, food, water, fire. have three days to fill and about 35 reserves to keep busy.

Hey, even Stefan is gonna turn out with two of his Dutch buddies !

t
 

Torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
g3ermany - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 19:10:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.198) 

I gotta say, although I love it, I wouldn't pick it for use in general orienteering, or for use for slope measurement for shooting. Too heavy for general hiking, too wieldy for shooting, and too pricey (unless you're rich, or it is a job-specific tool as it is for me). I'd go with Silva for most uses... a lot of my friends use a Silva with an inclinometer instead of a Brunton anymore, anyway.

Gooch:
Was unaware that Leupold made scopes with the dots set to a power other than max... I figured it could be ordered as such, but I can't say that I had ever really put any thought into it. Thanks for the correction....
Hey! This now brings up a question.......
I pulled out a Leupold Tactical brochure and I'm looking at the back page of it, and it has a 'reticle subtension' chart. For the mil-dots on the MarkIVs, it lists them all as 10.6mm regardless of power (10x or 16x), but it lists the Vari-X IIIs at 13mm for the 10x setting and 38mm for the 3.5x setting; and 11mm for the 14-x setting and 34mm for the 4.5x setting, for the other scope. Now, the chart neglects to state at what distance these figures are given for... am I right to assume 100 yards?
Also, since the 3.5-10x is given at 13mm instead of 10x, is that a reflection of the fact that the 10x is really 9.7x? Or is it that it's just slightly off of a standard mil-dot spacing?

Now, a more important question as far as I'm concerned: my Tactical is mil-dotless... I know I could ante up and have them installed, but I decided to instead leave this one alone and once fortunes allow buy a 3.5-10x40mm M3 LR with mil-dots... let this one be more oriented towards hunting and the mil-dot for sniping (well, for sniping practicing). This chart gives, however, the subtentions for the duplex recticle itself.... I want to make sure that what the chart is referring to is what I'm referring to...

On the chart for the 10x setting of the 3.5-10x Vari-X III, it states that the heavy section is 19mm (.7in), the thin section is 6mm (.2in), and that the thin opening is 15cm (5.5in). I think this I've got this right, but to make sure and not assume: is it saying that the heavy section of the duplex would be covering 19mm high at 100 yards? And that the thin part of the recticle would be covering 6mm? And that the gap between the heavy parts of the recticle, i.e. the entire width or height of the thin part of the recticle, is covering 15cm? Right?

Now, as a check... if it is covering 15cm, ie., 5.5 inches at 100 yards, then it is going to cover 11 inches at 200 yards... BUT, the manual that came with the scope says that 1/2 of the thin recticle, i.e. from the center of the crosshairs to the point where the thin part of the recticle meets the think part, will cover ~16 inches at 200 yards. So it doesn't match.... Where am I confused???? What do I mis-understand????

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 19:22:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.179) 

Should have said:
"Also, since the 3.5-10x is given at 13mm instead of 10.6mm, is that a reflection of the fact that the 10x is really 9.7x?"

-L

Leslie <see@above.com>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 19:32:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.179) 

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 21:14:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.192.180) 

Now thats an interesting idea for accurate long range shooting.......
 

anybody else?
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 21:14:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.59) 

Answer question on why and how you use a drag bag first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 23:17:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.15) 

Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 23:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.34) 

Is there Spin Drift in "West 'By Gawd' Virginy", or is it "Sheep drift".

Inquiring minds want to know???

'lito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 23:35:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.45) 

Pete, thanks for the info on the 300mag.

US Made Rifles being less capable than others: Sorry dude, wake up and smell the coffee. US Weapons kick butt on the foreign stuff. Take 2000.00 and put into US Products and Kick Butt on any Foreign Rifles. I have tried the Sig and Blaser Target Rifles they call sniper rifles. My NorCal, HS Precision, McBros and George Gardner rifles will make them look like slingshots anyday for a whole lot less money.

Pablito, a man of few but true words. "You drag it" LOL

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 23:49:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.22) 

Watching SEAL team special on discovery channel. I ont's me one of them thar M60's.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 00:00:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.15) 

Don't think that US made rifles must be smithed to be accurate. I have a new Remington 700 P-DM in .308. The gun is much more accurate than I am. After breaking it in real good and proper, it averages .444" @ 100 yards. Best groups that day hung around .227". Add to this the fact that I was using left over .300 Win Mag components, the gun was pushing out 190 gr Sierras and grouping them nicely. I just got some burgers in 168 and they go to the range next, I can e-mail you the test data from them if you like. Bottom line is this: I am very satisfied with my Remington. I'm going to lighten the trigger myself and be done with it. Down the road I might cut some of the freebore out of it, but when the gun is shooting this well out of the box, I hate to do anything to it. Rethink that Pro Hunter thing!

Ralph
Ralph <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 01:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.104.31) 

And please, no more spin drift. I learned my lesson the last time. Seems I had to down some beer and run in circles with a close up view of the "Louisville Slugger" emblem on a stationary baseball bat, and then run towards a tree. Sure enough, as Gooch said, I did notice the puke "spun" as I ran. The only good part I learned was that I can hold out puking while repeating the Marine Creed until the part that goes "I will. (puke)".

Drag bags: The large tool kit (bag-o-tools) I put the "real necessary" stuff in before headed to the drag strip? I may not be a sniper, but good luck catching me (or leading a 160+MPH car) :-)
Really though, I would appreciate some "know how" on the in's and out's of a drag bag (beyond "you drag it")......
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
scope swappin in, Utah, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 01:27:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.139) 

Newbie goes to range with new gear and understands quickly why the rifle butt is held firmly against shoulder. Being resourceful, Newbie swipes pantyliners from wife to use as a shoulder pad. They have double adhesive that sticks to skin under a T-shirt and smell good too! After next range visit, Newbie tosses female hygene product into the back seat of the car and forgets about them. The next day, wife borrows car for shopping and discovers female hygene accessories. For you married guys, I don't have to explain the fear factor involved when confronted by wife holding a very incriminating piece of evidence in her hand, and the first thing out of her mouth is "Would you like to explain..."
Central Florida <R356C@AOL.COM>
Central, Florida, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 02:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.53) 

As for American weapons requiring smithing out of the box.... I can only pass an annecdotal opinion on my latest aquisition. I have a Winchester Model 70 heavy barrel and out of the box it truly was a pretty fine shooter. It was far from the best but it was certainly quite accurate and could outshoot most shooters (though probably not all readers of this site for sure).

I did have Jerry Rice of Nor Cal Precision do a trigger and a bedding job on it and the groups did tighten up nicely but most people get this sort of thing done anyhow.

Speaking of Nor-Cal Precision I just posted some new brand photos of some of his rifles on his site if anyone is interested.

Looks like I am going to get into reloading soon, This will help keep me from going broke :-) Anyone have suggestions on a (probably)non-electronic reloading scale? Not sure what features/brands to consider. Mail me offline.
 

JT - you know that web guy... <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 02:46:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61) 

Next. Drag bags, just that...more drag. Makes you look cool coming and going from range. To me, leaves to much of a trace and I have enough of a time trying to lose my own trail ! Unless you are woried, really worried about the rifles finish and dings on the barrel, just place a finger cot over the barrel, have a good sling, have scope covers on the ends of the scope and drag it as a rifle should be : CLOSE AT HAND !! Then again...I am not currently active duty or LE...SO, WTF do I know ??!!

More thoughts on multi-season cover ... If you are using a "Wookie" suit then the most logical choice is to make or have two suits. If you have gotten wiser (as I think I'm supposed to) then you could make a reversible cape/cover. Not as difficult as it sounds and far less bulky than the Wookie. Its amazing how creative you can be when the budget is tight...have all sorts of odds and ends of "Former" issue stuff and all I have to do is make it work !!
Speaking of "stuff" one of the new additions to SC mentions a place/site called "Barracuda". I have in my grimy paws a personal screen made by them and it came to me in the original packing. Now if I can just get my hands on a "thermal imager" and some other items to see if it really works. A bit darker in coloration than will work down here unless you are in some good pine thickets but ....

Last ... This is for all who reload, what are the recommendations for an electronic measuring scale ?? Have a BBK but its on its last legs and I sure don't want to go back to my old 5-10 balance beam unless I really have to. Am looking in the $150-175 price range. ANY help or ideas ?? THanks and does anyone use VV 540 ? just got half a can for helping a shooter and have never used it. Will be shooting 168 & 175 Moly Sierras.
OUT HERE
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 03:41:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.116) 

Thanks to all that have helped me on SC. I hope that in some way I was of some assistance as well.

One of the things that has been a thorn in my side is that a lot of ranges will not let me set up my chronograph. I will eventually, I plan to try out all of my best loads then determine the SD. I read in a book that bullets in flight can vibrate out to about 125m then "settle" in. I think this is true because I have had 200m groups tighter than my 100m groups. Strange aint it?
The main goal that I have right now is to find THE most consistantly accurate load that I can go out and buy 1000 projectiles, primers and enough powder to send them on their merry way. Economically it is the best choice for me since the M700 is used ONLY for precision shooing anyway. On the other hand my hunting rifles need to be a lot more versitle since the type of game and terrain changes contantly. I love my 9.3x62mm Mauser, kicks like hell but does a nice job.

The Sierra 165gr HPBT Game King is a nasty little suprise when sent on its way. They seem to like the same charges the 168s do.

Was anyone in 2/3 Weapons company between 1989-1993? Any 0341s out there? Any LE from MS? Hinds County area to be specific. I think I am going to reload for a while.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 03:42:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.182) 

Before laying down that much moolah, check out some of the multi-page ads in the back of some of the photography mags, such as "Popular Photography." Some of those camera retailers have binocs and move so much stuff, their prices are near wholesale. I think you should support local dealers if possible and have that rapport and support, but I bought a Nikon camera out of NY for $200 cheaper than I could have bought it here. I don't support my locals THAT much...

BTW-Had a set of Swarovskis-best glass I've ever looked through, except MAYBE Leica and Zeiss.
David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 03:51:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.255.136.165) 

Bill <brogers@elkart.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 05:18:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252) 

Modern rifle's,wether they are American,japanise or German or Finnish,when mounted with a good match grade barrel should all be comparable in Accuracy.Were the diffirence lay's,is what feature's the Manufactorer decide's are impotant,ie 90 or 60 degree bolt lift, detachable or fixed magazine,and lenght of box magazine(determine's the max length you can hand load too).

I Have owned and used various rifle's,including Rem's and Winchester's,Sako's ,Mauser's etc,for sporting rifle's,the 3 maker's that will get my future buisness,are Sako,Tikka and Howa.
Those 3 are the only one's that impress me any more,as good weapon's.

As far as Tactical rifle's go,I have looked at most,and handled and shot the 2 rifle's I consider the top 2 SWS currently available.
The Accuracy International serie's of rifle's and Sako's TRG serie's,AI's 1st rifle adopted by UK as L96A1,was their 1st gen rifle,wasn't purchased by anyone,the Product Improved L96A1 called the AW(Artic Warfare) model was brought by most Armie's of the World,this model is their 2nd gen rifle.
Sako seem's to have missed the boat,a day late and a dollar short,timing.The Sako serie's are now moving too their 2nd gen rifle serie's,the TRG-22/42.The Sako and AI gun's are very similar in raw spec's,10-shot mag's,60 degree lift,aluminium frame's etc.

The main selling point of the TRG serie's is as similar to the AW as it is,the price is 1/2 that of the British gun,I believe the AW is selling for twice the price it is really worth.

The Rem based M-24 has only been sold to a few countrie's,Israel and Eygpt,both heavily involved with US, given free or cheap.

Call me old fashioned,I do not care where a weapon is made,only with function and price.

For my money $1500-2000USD,it's a TRG-21/41 or TRG-22/42,there is nothing else remotely close,just my opinion of course.
If you have not heard or seen the TRG serie's,check them out,see one in the flesh and then decide,you may even like it.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 08:05:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.214) 

I have been listening to my "Ramstein" (Lemay knows who)and "Matrix" soundtracks and should be in a real good mood next weekend. Bring some kneepads, ´cause thats were you´ll be most of the weekend !

Got some other good ideas for the FTX , thanks guy´s.

t
 

Torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
g3ermany - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 09:41:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.228) 

Hey guys. Just thought I would let you know I found a bunch of folks on the internet that are more anal retentive than we are. Its the IDPA onelist. I posed a question on there a couple of days ago and got instant heat! Pretty cool.

Out here.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 18:08:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163) 

To try another slant on my question:

Is 1/2 MOA out-of-the-box from a VSSF unusual or the norm?

Does any of your experience show that Steyr rifles require out-of-the-box gunsmithing?

Matt

PS Can't contribute much on rifles, but can bore you to death on any artillery questions!
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 18:46:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.35) 

And you owe it to yourself to check the Fujinon Super 80 spotter, and the Fujinon 7x50 binos. If you buy something, you will owe it (money) to Eagle, ha ha. The 7x50s are a bigger set of glasses, for those of you in the market for such.

No, I don't work for Fujinon. Yes, I am done now.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.ent>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 18:59:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225) 

I'm not sure about the 'glorifying violence' statement though. I here there are still some sheepies up in By Gawd that have a class action molestation suit against Al O.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 22:22:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.146.68)

I might have been the student you're referring to. My Leuopold is a 4.5 x 14 x 50 LR tactical. The book says to use max magnification for accurate mildot measurements. However - I have to align that white dot with the X on the 14X setting. There is alittle bit of zoom ring adjustment left after the 14X - which is where I got into trouble. I had assumed that I could just crank the zoom ring to the stopping point - and there is max power and the proper place to mil targets.
 

Ken

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
NOkesville, VA, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 01:20:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.60)

CJ

Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 01:44:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.157.171)

Cheers All,
Mike
Mike A. <moamike@ix.netcom.com>
RainyChillyWindy, Washington, USofbygodA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 02:07:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.31.44.183)

http://www.varminthunters.com/bbs/messages/488.html
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 02:21:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

I tried the 190s and had little luck. I think that they are best in a 30'06 or bigger. I like the 168s and 175s for long range stuff. Here are a few loads that might get you started.

175gr Sierra HPBT/MK

1st load: 41.5gr IMR-4064 F210GM primer
2nd load: 43.0gr Varget same primer

168gr Sierra HPBT/MK

1st load: 41.4gr- 42.5gr IMR-4064 F210GM primer
2nd load: 43.0gr Varget same primer
3rd load: 46.0gr WW-748 F215 or F215GM primer

The WW-748 load gives the highest velocity about 2800 out of my 24" Douglas barrel. It is also by the way one of the most accurate loads I have ever tested in my rifle. Average group is arount .258" and can be a lot less. The 2nd load for the 175 shot five shots in .168" at 100m, nice. Don't forget to load tune your stuff. I usually will load 5 rounds starting about 2gr below suggested most accurate and increase the charge by .5gr to see how it reacts.
Just to demonstrate I was shooting a bunch of 155 Palma Sierras using Varget. I started around 41.5 and when I got to 43.0 my groups were as tight as I ever could hope for. Then I tried 43.5. The groups went from .347" to 1.114"! Just a half grain made that much difference. So I tried working all the way up to 45.0gr. The groups opened and closed all the way up but never out shooting the 43.0gr load. Wierd.

All,

Thanks to all the kind information about the "Mudville" matches. All who helped me, thanks a million. The thing I like best about this site is the comaraderie show towards each other.

Does or did anyone know a Marine SSgt Dewane Sigmann AKA SSgt Eagle Eye? He was an instructor at Quantico. He was my section leader in the Corps. I can't say enough kudos for that man. He was a Marine's Marine and a stickler for troop welfare and morale.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 03:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.71)

About electronic scales. Try Midway USA. They can't be beat all prices include shipping. I get all my stuff through them. They have everything Lapua, Berger, HS Precision tactical stocks, and the list goes on and on. They got some grat buys on electronic scales. They even got electronic powder throwers that measures it all out for you, all you have to do is push a button. They are on the web www.midwayusa.com
 

Torsten,
 

I understand that Sierra makes a 200gr MK for the 8mm .323". Can you shed light on this? I know the 8x57JS is still very popular over in Germany. Especially in doubles. How do the laws work over there for reloaders?
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 04:11:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.71)

Hi guy's do either of you have any adresse's or website's for European Dealer's in Optic's,Gun's and Military clothing etc,

Mainly after a good cheap dealer's in European Optic's,both rifle scope's and Bino's.

Have used the steiner mil serie's,in both 6x30 and 7x50 with the graticle,and find them both to be good,usually I signed out the small set,6x30 when on exercise,and shorten the stap around neck and they tucked them down the front of my smock,no case,just unzip jacket a small way and they can be used.When the Q were out of 6x30's,I had too take the larger 7x50's,so being already over loaded with gear,decided to unscrew the bino's and take the half with the graticle and leave the rest behind,very compact and they fitted into a spare ammo pouch,cool.
I see the steiner serie's going cheap in Europe,I think they are 2nd hand,ex army.

Also interested in the Carl Zeiss Jena EDF 7x40 DDR bino's,
Have you guy's any comment's on the above mentioned bino's?

Thanks in Advance, Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 04:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.165)

Also had a chance to use the new AN/PVS-10 SNS.
In a word,
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 05:12:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.186.125.26)

In a word, "SWEET".
This is the next gen night sight that is replacing the Simrad. This is not a slipover item but a complete new combination day/night sight. It worked just great with varying light levels at night. Clear image like a gen 3 NOD(maybe better).

From what I can remember:
8.5 times magnification
800m effective range, day
600m effective range, night
variable image illumination
variable reticle illumination
4.5 lbs.
built-in scope base attachments
.5 MOA difference between day and night zero

I don't know if I will be able to practice my wind calls on prairie dogs, but I hope to try it on some coyotes.
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 05:23:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.186.125.26)

Thanks to all who responded about the scales problem , looks like I will be sending the BBK back to Pact and they will repair for either no charge or very slight impact to my wallet !

Need some assistance from the current Active Duty mil people ... I need the NSN or NSSN for the repair bag for the desert camo netting/screen... actually I need a full bag !!! heh heh heh Any help ??
OUT HERE
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 13:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.131.172)

Russian special forces are supposed to have captured a female sniper in Ch. She's a 27 year old Ukrainean citizen called Jelena alias "Lolita". In the 94/96-conflict she was credited with 20 kills against the russian army. How many kills she have in this war is not known. Jelena, a former biathlon compeditor, is supposed to be a member of a mythical female sniper-unit. Female snipers from several former SU-states are offering their services to the rebells. Most of them from the baltic states with biathlon background. There's a small picture of a female sniper on this page:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/d119069.htm

If you don't know how to read norwegian you might want to take a look at Izvestija's website in cyrillc russian :-) ( If you have any swedish or norwegian blonds near you, get them to translate...)

TorF
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 13:55:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

Remington will not sell a shop manual for the PSS.

What is the technique for removal and then replacement of the barrel as far as the proper torque, and where can I get the best price on a torque wrench that I need.

Second, if I remove the barrel and replace it with the proper torque, should there be any change in zero?

One idea I am considering is how feasible it is to buy a second barrel, have it threaded, and then use a Gemtech TPRS suppressor and use the weapon unsuppressed, and then when I want it suppressed to replace the barrel. Is there any downside to taking the barrel in and out over and over again? Buying an extra barrel and having the suppressor mounted on it is a lot less expensive than 2 weapons.

Any thoughts, comments or experience with the TPRS suppessor particularly in long range shooting is appreciated.

Respectfully,
Robert
Robert S. Tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
Conway, AR, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 15:58:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.47)

With that Ramstein ROCKEN them sheep will be a rocking!!!!!!!!!!!

On the Rem 700 VSS out of the box. I've ben shooting one for about and 1 1/2 years now. It shoots great! The only thing that I've done to it was put it URAS stock. Works for me at the matches. I think its the guy behind the gun not the gun.

"I think the most important step toward becoming a great shooter is mastering the fundamentals of marksmanship. After this you must put maximum effort on mental training and conditioning. And shoot shoot shoot.

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Michigan, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 16:16:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

How do you use the bullet drop and wind drift on the Mildot Master?

Darren...
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 16:50:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.33)

Robert,
Forget what your trying to do and spend a few hundred more and have another barrel made. The factory barrels are put on DAMN tight and ment to stay that way. A switch barrel rifle is made to lock up with very little pressure on the barrel or threads. You would also need to pin your recoil lug and have your smith put "Timing" marks on both barrels so you will know how far to tighten the barrel. Then you will have to have a barrel vice and bushings for each barrel and an action wrench. I have been there and done that and finally settled on the calibre that I liked best and shot the most. Good Luck!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmial.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 17:13:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Remgintons' almost never NEED tweaking. Most of us do it because, being totally into extreme accuracy potentials, we think by doing so we may get a little more out of the rifle. We are OPTIMISTS and convince ourselves that doing this extra work will make them even MORE accurate. Some times it does. Sometimes it only increase the concentricity of the group, but with out a decrease in size. Every stock un-dicked with Remington I own will shoot sub moa, including the cheapo Model 78 Sportsman I bought for $249 back when that model was still an option. It had a standard contour hunting barrel, like a typical ADL or BDL. Most guys can leave them alone, use high grade or hand loaded ammunition and get excellent results that often match custom high dollar rifles for three times the price. Anyway, all of the Remington rifles I have modified, ALREADY shot sub moa before the mods. I would often do the trigger, or recrown the muzzle, in an attempt to get even better accuracy, but in terms of over the counter accuracy, they were actually pretty impressive as is. To illustrate:

My 22-250cal. M700VS shot a typical .4" moa groups with my hand loads. It didn't NEED work, but I wanted a 3 pound trigger to spent a little extra for that. Then, following the formula, I said what the heck and had the crown done too. Accuracy is now .3 to .4 moa. No big difference but once you get down below .5 moa you have to pay the big bucks to get any better anyway. So…point is, over the shelf, the Remingtons are an excellent value when you compare them for rifles costing $1000s more but giving little more than .5 moa accuracy.

Anyway, since you are talking about DEER hunting…the point is a bit moot. Minute of Deer works as well as minute of angle. It makes little sense to hump a heavy varmint barrel in the woods in search for deer alone. Unless you clip the barrel to about 20" or 22" to help balance the thing out better. OR unless it is the ONLY rifle you can buy. A 700 VS with the tube cut to 22" would be a nicely balanced rifle compared to the 26" barrel, and work well for deer. BUT, frankly, you can get acceptable accuracy out of a standard contour barrel. More accuracy than is necessary to hit the 10" kill zone on said animal.

A typical 700 will shoot into about .9 to 1.25 inches with over the counter ammo. More than sufficient for your purpose. The same rifle using match grade ammo or handloads will typically shoot into .75 to .9 moa. Maybe better if you are a skilled hand loader and have experimented enough to wring out the last bit of the rifles potential. Still, why bother? Since of your original statement was hat this rifle is going to be for deer hunting I'd say get the standard weight barrel. It can be as accurate as a heavy barrel! My 78 would shoot .5 moa with M852 match ammo, but that is hardly a hunting load.

Often your RATE of fire will control the accuracy potential of a thin barrel. A heavy barrel is not necessarily more accurate. But it is stiffer and it does heat up slower. Since you will not be shooting 25 rounds in a matter of minutes, you can see very good results from the typical hunting rifle today. As an example: Using my old M78 Sportsman, I would slow fire one round every two minutes. The five shot average was .7 moa with hunting loads! Out of a thin hunting barrrel. Now, when I sped things up drastically, I would see the groups open up as the barrel became very hot to the touch. BUT that is not representative of HUNTING. So, don't feel you need to strap yourself with a 13 pound rifle for deer. Accuracy is a relative thing. A 1 minute gun is great for deer. A ¾ minute gun is great for sniping and a .2 minute gun is awesome for benchrest competition, but no one gun will do all three well.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 18:03:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

I have a question that I hope won't generate too much controversy. I am a left handed shooter, and am looking at purchasing an accurate rifle in the very near future. I have previously owned a Savage 110 FP Tactical (right-handed), and I currently own a Savage 116 FLSAK in .300 win. I've decided that I don't need the .300, and am going back to the .308. (So the .300 is for sale if anyone knows a lefty looking for a very nice rifle!)

My question is, the Savage Tactical offers a 1 in 9" twist, while the Remington 700 VSLH in .308 offers a 1 in 10" twist. Keeping in mind that I intend to shoot 168gr. ammo, and some military surplus, is there an advantage to one twist rate over the other? Also, does anyone know if I have any other options for a left handed rifle in the sub $700 class?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
MikeR <mkrouten@wwdb.org>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 20:33:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.76.2)

I have a nice 30'06 load that is the nemisis of deer. It's 54.0gr of H-450, F215, and Hornady 180gr SP cat# 3070. It will touch holes at 100m. Deer gets hit like lightning. I know there are some who already use this load but I thought I would share it all the same. The little 180 is goin' about 2750 out of a 24" tube.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 21:28:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.192)

It's a lot more affordable, practical and convenient to maintain a seperate weapon to meet your description. I rebarrel my own Remington's. I don't use a torque wrench and most smiths I know don't. Search Brownell's and the like for the equipment. You need a action wrench and a barrel vise and a mallet, the new barrel, chamber reamer, headspace gauges, crowning, finish method, barrel stamps....Yikes. The action has to be stripped so yes, rezeroing is in order. Second rifle sound cheaper yet? You can have a Good gunsmith make you a switch barrel Remington (Hammond's Rifles in Red Lion, PA. - I don't know him) with a pinned recoil lug and differentl barrels pre-headspaced and chambered to your request as long as the bolt faces are same for the cartridges. I know someone quite happy with a Hammond's switch barrel Rem setup, .308 and .22-250. You want two .308Win barrels, one suppressed, one standard, Maybe different twist rates... Or buy another gun, have the barrel cut and/or threaded on the lathe still in the action.

As for the Out-of-the-box Rem700 accuracy issue; it's unsurpassed in it's price range. Allow 200rd break-in before judging.

MikeR, I thought the 700VS, VSF and VSSF were 1/12 twist and older PSS 1/10?

And Hey, what about Spin Drift? Butterfly Farts have more influence.

Good Shooting
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Tacticalmento, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 23:08:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.195.251)

Thanks. I think you're right. The VSLH is offered in 1 in 12. That's why I was wondering about the difference. 25% less spin may have a significant impact on performance.

Any thoughts?

MikeR <mkrouten@wwdb.org>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 23:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.76.2)

What's the difference between oooohhhhhh and AAAAaaaaHHHh? About 1/2 minute (of angle).

Ken and you other foggers, are you getting ready for the match in Feb? See you there! Bad Karma and Darren Dong, we expect you to show up, or have a really good excuse... (e.g. "you didn't feel like going")
Low pressure, high fun factor.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 00:24:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

1. What is the accuracy of your artillery at reasonable ranges? Either MOA or the circular error probable at a given range. (For the math phobes, the latter is generated from the geometric mean and S.D. for a 50% ring. It is useful for something.)

2. How much correction for spin drift and magnus effect is required at those ranges? If it's much less than MOA, it won't matter to rifles.

3. Do you use all of the nifty gizmos that tankers use like the laser barrel straightness, or doesn't it matter.

4. How hard is direct fire, or is it simply a matter of pushing a button and doing the same as indirect fire?

And to tie it all into to sniping, nothing says lovin' like a 155 round to head. Besides, think about a howitzer in a ghillie. Think Gooch could spot it?

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 00:26:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Wills is right. Though me being a perennial tinkerer of the Mechanical Designer heritage has been programmed to "think different". I'm just finishing a rebarreled 700 in 308Win with a Shilen SS #7 contour 26inch 8 land and groove 1/10 RH twist 1.630 headspaced Cabinfever Project, just to see what happens (more money than brains). If my math is correct, 1/10 vs 1/12 is not 25% difference it's about 18%. The downrange difference is unknown until fired. I have no complaints with my 26inch Remington 1/12's out to 1000Y with FM175. Looney's I know at the Sactacticalmento Matches shoot with 308 PSS, VS, VSF and VSSF with 1/12 and either 168 or 175 with near MOA results out to 1000Y (great conditions). 'Cuz good shots like Wills beat me, I have an excuse to experiment (If I spent more time shooting than tinkering? Hmm). I'll post If it's substantially better or worse, but since I'll be shooting it, don't expect an improvement. Hopefully at Feb's Sac match, the fog wont win. But as stated, it's oooohhh or aaahhh, stick or auto, compound or recurve, moly or plain, H-S or McMillan, factory or handload.....either way, wind and the elements preside.

Good Shooting
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Tacticalmento, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 01:54:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.196.200)

Top it w/a Zeiss and you'll love it forever (once its paid for)

K
Engvoll <engvoll@online.no>
Norway - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 02:59:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.67.112.103)

These are from the January 1999 Precision Shooting article "The Ultra-Long Range Match Rifle in Great Britain":

Island Range Scores 1978-1995: (48 inch bullseye, 108" Inner ("10-ring"), 168 Magpie ("9-ring"), 20 foot x 12 foot Outer)

1500 yards, John de Havilland (supine) 94x100
David Goodall (prone) 48x50

1800 yards, Martin Browne (supine) 47x50
Martin Browne (supine) 67X75

2000 yards, Robin Pizer (supine) 87X100

2200 yards, Rhoddy Voremburg (supine) 78X100
Donald Stewart (prone) 85X100

2500 yards Roland Greenwood (prone) 54X75
Duchess of Argyll (supine) 31X50

2640 yards, Robin Pizer (supine) 84X100

Now, does "Spin drift" really matter? Sheeesh!

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 03:09:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Table 6-2. Thickness of material for positive protection against caliber ammo listed.

Concrete (5,000 psi), 5.56: .5 inch, 7.62 and 30 cal, 7 inches.

Wet sand, 5.56: 25 inches, 7.62 and .30, 36 inches.

Packed or tamped earth, 5.56: 32 inches, 7.62 and .30: 48 inches.

(With the Green Tip 5.56mm NATO ball your actual mileage may vary.)

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 03:32:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Wait, the gun groups bigger than the deflection due to spin drift so it's not significant right?? NOT!! 1600 yard no wind shot with no spin drift correction is a MISS!!! By about 20 inches from the edge of the target. Depending on bullet used of course :) Have a nice day.
Trigger50 <Triggerfifty@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 03:45:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.120)

http://hometown.aol.com/lds1952/

Marine Sniper Vietnam: The Phantom Of Phu Bai
Book on Eric England: This project was assisted by the late Carlos Hathcock, the NRA, the USMC, and many top surviving Snipers and Distinguished Shooters
 

Anybody ever heard of him - bogus or worth ordering.
 

Lone Wolf <LW@snet.net>
Konnecticut, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 04:01:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.161.208)

Hope your book sells well. Did you put in the May 94 ARDEC data?
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 04:04:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Just got my Forster dies w/ the Mic. seater. Ooooohhh, are they SHHWEEETT! Thanks, Bill.
Spud,
Out
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, kalisocialistfornia, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 07:30:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.18)

Met with an ARDEC engineer (Paul Riggs)a few years ago right when the M118LR was being released. He stated that they were a little disppointed in the 175gr Sierra BTHP penetration properties. It seems that the construction of the round (as with the 168 or any other BTHP) as opposed to the good ole BTFMJ didnt allow as good of penetration. (Now according to the UCMJ penetration, however so slight, is still penetration). They were looking at obtaining the PRL tungsten core technology for the next generation of military projectiles in order to solve this situation as well as the DOD directive that all projectiles developed in the future must have an enviromentaly friendly contruction. I guess we're not too worried about all of that GAU-30 depleted uranium. But I digress...

Now I recently read somewhere that DOD is going to use the PRL tungsten core technology. Anyone confirm that?

Spin drift! I told you guys about this spin drift stuff! It does exist!! Remember the practical exercise I gave you?

Guzzle 2 Guinness's (cans w/widget). Have your buddies spin you round and round and try to run straight! You'll drift in the direction your buddies were spinning you in!

See trigger. You thought I was just an ignrnt jarhead.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 13:31:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.185)

LOL, my sense of humor is short these days, my apologies. At most normal combat ranges, I agree totally, SD is a non-effect. At those obscene ranges, different story.

Gooch,

I missed that particular exercise, and i never thought you were an ignorant jarhead, really. You guys take care, hope to shoot some of those matches out there this year.

Trigger50
Trigger50 <trigger762@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 14:13:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.120)

Any info would be greatly appreciated, thank you
Zach
Zach <bbbkz@stargate.net>
Evans City, Pennsylvania, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 14:43:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.180.99.13)

In the case of my Remingtons, it is not a matter of brand loyalty. I have just have good luck with them. Could be that I bought mine back when Remington was not havng the current crop of quality issues some folks are complaining about. My newest 700 was made in '96.

As far as load data...My PSS shot just peachy with Federal GM and GM2 with out my doing anything to it. I started handloading since it was cheaper -- but the accuracy of my handloads is only slightly better than the Fed GM. So his theory about me dialing in the PSS via loads is dead wrong. In fact I no longer shoot handloads out of the PSS for this reason. The GM shoots so well that there is no point.

As far as the mods this rifle has undergone, they were done for a TS article, but were not really necessary. At the time it seemed like a good way to get soemthing into print and the articel payed for the mods.

Every one of the rifles I had shot very well with out any work. I worked them because I wanted to see what improvements could be had. I like to experiment and would do the same with any brand. But some people will want to find fault for the sake of argument. So it goes.
 

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 15:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Using several ballistic programs I came up with numbers that should get me on paper at 300 yards with a 19 yard zero. I zeroed the rifle in at 19 yards with no problems. On a whim I posted the target out to 50 yards. At this range with a zero of 19 yards, according to the programs I have been using I should hit about 2.1 inches high. I am not. I am getting consistant hits 5 inches high. The rifle is consistant with its accuracy and I can easily make 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. The problem is that I cannot use a program to estimate trajectory at a given distance. It seems that the Bullet is traveling above the line of departure or curving up during flight. Any ideas?

thanks,

michael
Michael Saranos <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 16:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.189)

D.E. models are available in .357, .41 mag, .44 mag, and .50AE, and maybe others that I don't know about.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 16:46:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

Michael,
Stop worring about ballistic programs and go out and zero it at 100yds then shoot it at 200 and record the info and then go to 300 and do the same thing until you have reached the distance you want to shoot. This will be a blueprint of your gun then and then when the conditions change you will have to do it again. It is only correct for that day at that time on that range. Nothing is concrete when it comes to shooting. Its a skill thats learned through trigger time and sorry to say there is no easy way to do it with programs or anything else. Good luck and good shooting!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 17:26:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

If you're using a consistent load like Fed Match 175/168, get a hundred yard zero and then add another 5 MOA (@15.75 inches) of come-up for three hundred yards. Guaranteed on paper (size 24 X 24). Faster than all the wrong ballistic programs. Ballistic programs only generate Terminal Ballistics, which are Ballistics that only work at your computer Terminal. Don't forget to adjust for your Spin effect at 300Y which will require about 1/8 inch correction left (joking).

Good Shooting
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Sacrademented, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 18:48:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.195.121)

Got another question... I would like to work up a safe, stable, and decently accurate (2-3 inch groups at 200 yards acceptable) for .308 that is subsonic and will be used with a suppressor. I am looking to work up a load that will work in a 26" Remington with a 1:12 twist and a 20" Remington with a 1:10 twist. My main concerns are as follows:
 

1. the round has to be stable coming out of the muzzle so it doesn't yaw into the baffles. I understand this eliminates boat tail bullets.

2. I need a load that will not leave filler residue in the suppressor. Or a load that doesn't use a filler would be nice.

3. I would ideally like to get around 950-1050 fps muzzle velocity.

I have been searching for a decent subsonic load but I haven't had much luck. Please email any load data to me. Thank you again.

Michael

Michael Saranos <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 19:35:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.191)

Why not boat-tail bullets? I know some LE types with suppressed rifles, and almost all they shoot is Federal Match. They got some subsonic stuff too. I think it was IMI, but don't remember for sure. The suppressor is so cool, no ear plugs needed! The sonic "crack" is louder than I thought it would be. They bad guys would hear it, but I think it would be hard for the BG's to locate the shooter from the muzzle report.
I don't know what projectile is loaded in the sub-sonic round.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 20:30:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.61)

For those of you who shoot at 2000 yards, take it into account. Please note that the X ring of those targets is significantly larger than minute of man, or even minute of moose.

I should have stated this up front instead of letting ya'll take it and run. I know better than to start one of these threads. You have to admit that the reflexive "it exists/it doesn't" makes it prime sniper bait, though.

Anyway, how accurate are the big boomers, to get back to the original question?

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 20:32:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Thanks again.

Michael
Michael Saranos <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 21:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.188)

That still does not compare with the greatest TV shot of all time, which was the JAG episode in which Gunnery Sgt. Ray Crockett hit a side view mirror of a moving Hum-Vee offhand at a distance of well in excess of 800 meters, and did it twice, the second time in front of an admiral, and his commmading officer, (who accused the Gunnery Sgt. of trying to plink him.) I have this episode on tape and have been studying it frame by frame for several days now. I actually learned something very useful from all this which helps me with my offhand shooting. Does anyone remember this JAG episode?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 21:37:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.133)

Do these highly touted "chassis" stocks hold an advantage over a well and properly bedded rifle?
Are there any "chassis" stocks that resemble a traditonal stock?
Couldn't an HS Precision stock, with its aluminum block, be considered a chassis, one that can't be dismantled?
If we buy that, couldn't a well bedded rifle be considered the same?

A tip. When I got a soft covered instructional book, I took it to my local printer and got him to cut off the spine. He then punched it for a 3 ring binder, and... well, by now the benefit should be obvious.

If I had been a Marine, I would sign off with "Semper Fi." As I was in the Air Force, "When's lunch?"
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Land of milk & honey, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 21:51:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.171)

Any recommendations on rings and bases for a Rem. 700 for use with a Leupold LR M3? I have been assuming Leupold Mk4, but after searching this site and seeing that SMTC offers (recommends?) Badger Ordnance, I thought I would ask the experts. The rifle is a 26" bbl PSS, in .308 Win. I would like to be able to take advantage of the M3's elevation capabilities, to get me out to 1000 yards. Will either of these bases require shimming or are they good to go out of the box? Pardon my ignorance, I am a hunter-turned-long-range-shooter, any info would be greatly appreciated.

Also, anyone know of a good place to shoot 400-1000 yards in northwest Oregon? My favorite spot just got sold to a private party - no more shooting allowed there.
 

Thanks,

Brian

Brian S <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
Oregon, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 23:19:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.21.215.28)

Spin Drift does not make a significant impact on a 308 at normal sniper ranges. Take more time working out the wind adjustments. I see most folks worring about all kinds of things and can't read wind to save their butt. KInda like putting the boat in the water, with a full tank of gas and no plug in the stearn.

Since I am just a cop I will sign off "Where's my coffee?"

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 23:26:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.68)

http://www.fulton-armory.com/AP.htm

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 00:28:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

I can't answer any of your scope questions, but I think that Tri-County has a 600yd range, and I've heard that Douglas Ridge has a 700 or 800yd range. If you do find someplace that goes to 1000yds, let me know, I live in SW Washington, and am also looking for a good place to shoot.

Also, if anyone knows of a lefty looking for a great deal on a .300 Win Mag, please see my posting for a Savage 116 FLSAK in the Emporium. (This rifle looks A LOT like the new rifle Savage is selling in their website!)

Thanks,

MikeR

MikeR <mkrouten@wwdb.org>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 00:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.76.2)

All those looking at subsonic .308's. DO NOT USE boattail bullets in a subsonic load with the suppressor. They will yaw badly, causing baffle strikes. this may destroy the can, and cause you damage as well. Flat base bullets with a round nose will work best, no more than 180grs for a 1 in 12" bbl and 200 to 220 for a 1 in 10. I use 10 grains of AA #9 with a Norma 220 #16332 bullet. Be advised that most manufacturers will not warranty the can if you use these loads. Gemtech will only warrant loads from Engle Ballistic Research (512) 360 5327. Lapua loads in particular are very poor. Sound Technology can also provide good loads, Black Hills is also a good source.

The OPS Inc. cans are now available commercially, if anyone has an interest you can contact me. I know Phil and get a pretty good price. You'll need to get the bbl machined to spec, they use a two-point mount with a tapered shoulder turned on the bbl for the rear of the can, which telescopes back over the bbl.

Most quality suppressors actually ENHANCE accuracy, plus acting as great muzzle breaks. A suppressed .300 WinMag is like shooting a .223. The downside in increased weight and length, plus a nasty mirage off the can after 3 or 4 shots.

Cory Trapp
SAS Products
Class 3 dealer
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
ALiso Viejo, CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 01:00:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.10.147.75)

If I remember correctly, that fellow who played the gunny is who I think would be perfect to play Bob Lee Swagger from Stephen Hunter's book Point of Impact. Entertaining book... I had issues w/ bits of it, but it was a good read... entertaining.
 

Jim, since you said it, I reckon I have to use it this time, although today I'm more in a Semper Gumby mood myself.....

Semper Fi, Devil Dogs...
-L, 0311

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 01:25:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.215)

As far as a range to shoot goes. I have an old friend who is the Fire Management Officer at the Malhour (?) wildlife refuge. He was talking a while back of building a long range facility out there. His name is Martin Jannette (Say it like its French). He's another frustrated former 82nd AA sniper type. See it you can find him. Don't know if thats close to you or not.

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 02:10:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

I was looking through some of my older Rifle and Handloader mags the other night and saw an ad from Speer bullets around 1972. In this ad they were offering 168gr match bullets with a rebated boat tail. I have not seen a bebated boat tail before in person. Is there any signifigant advantages to these? I was in a heated talk one time when a gentleman touted that a boat tail will thrash the throat of a barrel whereas a flat based bullet will not. Any ideas? I'm not touching spin drift with a ten foot pole. Talk about kicking a dead horse. If I ever shoot far enough to where spin drift is a problem it will be a rare day indeed.

Wills,

If I can't make it to Mudville match is for one of two reasons. 1, I am out of components or 2, The academy is kicking my ass.

Michael,

Regarding subsonic ammo. Mike, unless you are a class 3 holder, LE, Diane Feinstiens body guard, or you don't care, I would not even think of playing with that stuff. Ten years ago you might have got a quizical look. Now they put you in room 101! Suppressors are cool, but I won't play with them. That being said for my personal disclaimer. I suggest you try a 180gr bullet of boat tail design, so when it hits it will tumble. Use a FAST powder like IMR-4227. Try 15 grains and work up. Do you know what to look for in adverse pressure signs?
If you have a chronograph use it to see where you need to be. Baffles, eh? Are you using freeze plugs? Then you want your muzzle presure as low as possible. The bad thing of these low velocity stuff is that jackets do odd things in barrels. I would use a gas checked cast bullet if I were to choose.
I have a load that I call my gallery load. It's about as loud as a hot .22. It's a 71gr FMJ for a .32 ACP. I drop 5-7gr of Bullseye in the case with a magnum primer. In my field kit I carry about 10 or so for squirrels. I can keep them inside 2MOA at 100m.
So Mike, get your license and let me know.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 02:52:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.107)

By the way, the flight time of the bullet was 2.35 seconds. but the most incredible thing was that the Hum-vee had to be traveling at 880 mph to get from the place where the Gunnery Sargent milled the range to the place where the Hum-Vee had to be downrange in order to get hit in the sideview mirror after a bullet flight time of 2.35 seconds.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 04:08:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.24.216)

It's a pity that the Sako agent's in the US,charge such high price's,still if you shop around you might find better price's than,$3500USD,at the sniper store on SC,their price is $2300USD and that's a gunshop in the State's,
At riistamaa.fi,a shop in Finland,current price on TRG-21 is 8,935FIM,or $1654USD(on to that you would have to put Tax and Freight ).

Yes the price's are REAL,I have a TRG-41 in the Gun Cabinet too prove it,from riistamaa .
Is it so hard to personally import a rifle in to the State's,in NZ you can do it and we have much more restrictive gun law's generally.
A Rem Police type rifle sell's over here(NZ) for around $1,000USD,then I need to spend around $300 for mount's and ring's,etc etc,
So for me it is not a super dear rifle in comparison to a REM,it is slightly dearer,but I get all the Extra's as std,that I would have too shell out for seperatily,ie good detach mag,if I went the REM way I would have too get the mag and trigger guard off the HS serie's.
Swings and Round abouts.

I try not too have a Firm opinion on a weapon until I have at lest held it,dosn't always happen that way of course.

RE; TRG-21/41 serie's,look at the improved TRG-22/42 serie's to replace them in Sako's product line,the only info to date I have,is they have different stock's and bipod's and the 42 seem's to have a threaded barrel as oppossed to a threaded muzzle brake.
 

Subsonic load's,

If you do not want to use filler's,do what the Finn's do,set aside some case's for subsonic use ONLY,and drill out the flash hole to 4mm,and use mag primer's,and when trying to make sub ammo the Major Rule is DO NOT USE RIFLE POWDER'S ,use very fast Shotgun/Pistol powder,like VV310 & VV320 or Hodgdon's Clay's.Use those ugly jacketed RN type with Flat base,or lead cast bullet's,don't gas check the cast bullet's as they can get eaten by your silencer,just moly them or lube as normal.Check your ammo will stablise,without your can mounted will save a lot of embrassment and cost,when you have a load that is accurate 1-2 moa,then screw your can on,also a good idea to once you have the can on do a final check for alignment,just pull the bolt out and look down the barrel,if you can't see out it's not on Right.
The check take's 2 sec's and will save you a good repair bill,and keep checking while shooting that the can is not becoming lose.

Believe it or not you can use squib load's in your Hi-Powered hunting rifle for short range practice and potting small game near the hunting camp,you can get use with out having to mount a nasty old can on it,powder maker's at the momemt see making a special powder tailored for subsonic in rifle's as a improper product that will be the powder of choice for criminal's(I don't think they reload)when it would just be used exactly the way low velocity rimfire ammo is used,for when you want to practice cheaply and do not want to deafened by the noise.
 

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 04:40:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.176)

Ain't it odd how TV sort of overlooks reality? I guess it would be too cool if a guy could make an offhand shot on a moving target from over 800M everytime, or if I had a HumVee that'd do 880mph! I guess the producers of JAG just can't find good techno advisers these days.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 04:50:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.177)

I have one on order, it is due to be shipped at the end of the month or the first week of Feb.
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 05:10:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Will you be my math tutor this semester?

maggot...PA
maggot <maggot@epix.net>
*, PA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 06:26:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.238.238.82)

Also thanks all for the long range info for Oregon.
 

Brian S
Brian S <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
Oregon, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 07:01:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.124.216)

Regarding your post, "Man, I hate this back and forth spin-drift / Magnus / Coriolus effect crap. Yes, a body spinning about its axis will gyroscopically precede. Propellor aircraft designers put trim tabs on airplane ailerons to counter for "P" effect."

I just wanted to point out something about "P effect" more commonly known among pilots as "P-factor" since I've gotten an email from a friend who reads the roster about this. A web site that I have referenced to help out some of my fellow aviation students here at college is:

http://www.monmouth.com/~jsd/how/htm/title.html#mytoc

Paraphrasing from this website;

"P-Factor
The term P-factor in aviation is defined to mean "asymmetric disk loading". In airplanes, this effect is very small. For the effect to occur at all, you need to have an angle between the propeller axis and the relative wind. To be specific, imagine that the aircraft is in a nose-high attitude, but its direction of motion is horizontal (i.e. the relative wind is horizontal). Then the downgoing blade will be going down and a little bit forward, while the upgoing blade will be going up and a little bit backward. The downgoing blade will effectively have a slightly higher airspeed. Since this blade is on the right-hand side of the airplane (once again assuming a typical American engine) it will tend to torque the airplane around to the left and you'll need right rudder to compensate."

I just wanted to point out that the rudder is used to compensate for "P factor" not the ailerons. Rudder affects yaw or motion about the vertical axis and the ailerons affect roll(bank angle) or motion about the longitudinal axis.

Also P factor is not the same as gyroscopic precession. Related - yes, the same - no.

Most engines and vertical stabilizers are offset at a slight angle to counter the effects of P factor and gyroscopic precession.

Torque would seem to be the force that would affect roll the most and would be the force that would require a built in trim angle. Mainly a trim tab is a small, adjustable hinged surface on the trailing edge of the aileron, rudder, or elevator control surfaces that are designed to be labor saving devices that enable the pilot to release manual pressure on the primary controls. They simply allow you to trim off excess control forces.

To me, tourqe and P factor are irrelevant to rifle ballistics but gyroscopic precession, of course, is.

I'm not to nit-pick or point fingers, I just wanted to post to clear up something that didn't seem right.

I like the dialoge thats on here recently, much better than KungFu at 2000m or Y2K whatever. Anyways, if others can talk 'sheep' on here I can talk airplanes.

What amount of lead is appropriate for a KC-135 on short final,
RAWS; Range 500m, Angle 90*angle, Wind O, Speed 160 knots, anyone??

I've often wondered that (for the sake of argument ONLY!) while holding short of the active rwy at Offutt AFB waiting for a KC-135 Heavy to touch-n-go.

~C
Colin Caspers <deltavkps@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 09:45:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.3.225.76)

It is true that a Custom Rem700 or Win70HB is cheaper in the US than a Sako TRG-21 or Sauers, Steyr SSG´s and other in Europe produced rifles are in the US. It happens to be true also that those run-of-the-mill Rem 700VS´s and Rem 700 PSS´s are premium priced here in Europe and are not such bargains anymore. Also knowledgeable gunsmiths that are able to tune-up properly a Rem 700 are here in Europe very rare and they are not cheap.

If I were living in the states I would probably buy a factory custom H-S Precision´s HTR in 308. With all middle men, taxes etc. this rifle would cost here in Finland almost as much as two TRG-21´s. So the price-quality difference varies quite much, depending where you live. Here the local importer a) does not import 700 VS-LH normally at all b) if they special order it, the wait will be 2-3 months and c) the price would be around 1150 USD minimum. And this would be the "box-stock" rifle with a "18 dollar barrel" as the Rem representative once said to some gunwriters. The same rifle in the US costs around 600 USD. Besides it needs its trigger guard replaced, Baer scope mounts, Badger rings and Leupold 3.5-10X40 LR M3, total costs would be near 2700 USD.

I bought my totally custom-made 338 Lapua rifle in left-handed configuration stocked with A2-stock and equipped with Nightforce 5.5-22X56 scope for less than 2650 USD. -> Depending what you want/need, a locally produced product probably will be cheaper, even if quality is the same or better than what some more expensive imports have.

This is the reason why the Rem 700 is not so much used in Europe. Besides all special gear dedicated for Rem 700 must be imported too, and their prices are not cheap either. Rifles that shoot good, are good rifles, no matter what their prices. Good Custom Rem 700 shoot daman good, but so does TRG-21´s too. And Mauser, and Steyr´s etc.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 13:23:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.16.98.41)

I found a dealer in the Dayton Ohio area that offered to order me the TRG21 for $2400 out the door. I think I will probably do this in a couple of weeks.
Two of the Sales People there have the Sako Tikka White-Tail Sporters, one is the basic rifle with a Nikon Varmint Scope on it, and the other one is being modified for a full-length suppressor, and will become a class 3 item ( Legally, of course ). The accuracy is reported to be sub-1/2 moa with Federal Match ammo.
Thanks for all of the TRG info you sent to me. I will keep you advised on the Suppressed Tikka. I am told that with the barrel-length suppressor that you can shoot Federal Match, and it becomes sub-sonic. We'll see.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 13:34:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.198)

Brian S:

On your base selection question. The Leupold Mk4 base is a good base, but you will NOT be able to get to 1000 yards with out shimming it if you use a Leupold VX-III LR M3. The best you get is maybe 700 some yards. You will have to shim this base to reach 1000 yards.

The Badger is a much better choice, although it's cant angle is a bit high at 20 degrees. As an example, 15 degrees gets your .308, LR M3 equipped rifle out to 1200 yards or so and it does not force your head up so high in terms of cheek weld as does a 20 degree base. Cant angle notwithstanding, the Badger base as it is simply one of the BEST you can find. You will obviously NOT have to shim the badger. You also have to other choices in tapered one piece bases. The DD Ross base, which looks a lot like the Badger or the Autauga tapered base, which is also very similar but somewhat heavier. Any of these will get you to well beyond 1000 yards with out any further shimming. All are high quality and exceed the quality of the Leupold Mk4 base by a fair clip. My only complaint about any of them is the cant angle. I wish they would stick to 15 degrees and leave my cheak weld closer to stock.

On your most recent post:

The idea that a one piece base makes it harder to clean an action is ludicrous. Gun dealers generally have their heads up their collective asses when it comes to actual shooting. Some are very into the sport but I have found many to simply be salesman with little knowledge of what they sell. Cleaning an action properly does not require you to go in from the top anyway, so a one piece base is hardly an impediment to proper care. You can access the lug area via several tools fed in from the rear of the action and a rag wrapped around a short section of a cleaning rod is often all that is necessary to get to the guides in the receiver. I find it kind of funny that someone would think a one piece makes it harder because BOTH one and two piece bases have SCOPES on them that technically "get in the way". ;-)
Last thing on this issue…if you open up the floor plate, you can go in from there if you had to, but frankly, there is not problem either way.

Colin! Dude! A fellow pilot. Great explanation on the P-factor versus gyroscopic precession! I could not have said it as well. Not by a long shot! And by the way, on the holding short thing…the one thing that makes be feel better about waiting for these guys is the fact that my little Continental C85-12F is sucking down a miniscule amount of fuel compared to the big iron. I had a Citation hold for me one day and had to laugh at the thought that he was probably burning more fuel sitting there than I did in the entire month! Aviation Country…oh crap! ;-)

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 13:55:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

What do you keep in your pockets/packs for starting fires in cccold weather?

Which of you have actually tried using the stuff in the field for viability? In Alaska I carried metal match, birch bark, pine needles, wax soaked cotton balls.
I now have metal match, ciggy lighter, 2 film canisters with dryer lint, machine shredded waxed paper, smokeless power (44.0 gr charge of VARGET, naturally), and some WP matches.

Just looking for something a little more usable than gyroscopic precession of falling Canadian goose dung in the Andes......... ;-)

peteR
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 14:19:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.154)

Oh, and by the way, if I had a rifle instead of a machinegun I'd wait 'til that KC was on the ground, then hit hit while he was taxi'ing, if my rifle had the range legs to hit him. A 7.62 thru a turbine brings out at least a 72-hour tool box and ladder crew. :)

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 14:41:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Anyway, the article was very informative. I for one would not want to be the poor schmuck Designated Marksman, who is just a regular grunt after all AND NOT A TRAINED SNIPER, holding this thing in a fire fight when I ran out of ammo. No one else in the platoon is going to have what I need to feed the damn thing! Nor can I with hold my precious ammo in reserve since I am still a member of the over all platoon and expected to fight along side everyone else!

The Chandlers make a really strong argument but the funny thing is, nothing they say takes a rocket scientist to figure out. It is all SELF EVIDENT. The DM is not a sniper (contrary to what he may think due to some folks telling him so). He is a regular troop, with the added capability and skill to hit targets his platoon members can not, via a scoped rifle. Any tuned heavy barreled flat topped M16 with a military grade scope can do this out to 700 yards and beyond, so why weigh the DM down with an old, VERY high maintenance system that can not be supported at the platoon level where the user will be operating? Why also use a caliber not readily found in the normal platoon? I find it amazing that a rifle that was in service for a lousy three years can still be so valued by the old guard who's best memory of the thing was made on the civilian range in competition, and not in long term combat. They seem unwilling to let the .308 go but their entrenched attitude does not reflect the role of the DM as required. This decision is at odds with their own requirement. The .308 is a great round, but unnecessary for the Designated Marksman when you consider that the 5.56 round is as accurate and readily available in the platoon.

And before you M14/M1A owners get your dander up, please realize something. Those who used the rack grade M14 in Nam were normal troops. They loved the power of the thing…but they did not require the added accuracy a sniper or DM will need today. Most frankly, as proven by statistics, were NOT aiming much anyway so lets not argue about the rifles potential accuracy. A 2.5 moa rack grade M14 worked for the normal grunt but it was not ideal as a sniper rifle. A Sniper grade M14 took a ton of maintenance to keep in operation. It too worked, but not with out regular and constant problems arising from its bedding and its poor scope mounting system. It was taken out of service for a reason, whether we like to admit it or not.

The DM will be WAY better served with a modifed standard infantry rifle. That means the M16, not the old M14. If you disagree with me I do not think you completely understand the requirement of a DM. Go read the Chandler piece. They sum it up way better than I can ever hope to. Think LOGISTICS LOGISTICS LOGISTICS and maintenance. The M25 is a piss poor choice for the DM. Give every platoon one scoped M16 and follow the simple path to happiness… :-)

I am going to try to get their article reprinted here. It clear and concise and deserves a wider distribution.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 14:58:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Thanks!,

I did not know the fire ribbon was still available... Thought maybe it had been "banned" as being an evil arsonsists tool and having no sporting purposes. If you got a tube, what is the composition?

The dryer lint does burn hot n fast, shredded wax paper is then easily ignited, wax melts on twigs n stuff and poof flame. The lighter is for above zero conditions. I might have to swipe a piece of a fire log and 1/2" cube it and roll it in magnesium dust. hmmmm?

Trioxane tablets are a pretty cool idea too, have to remember your party routine and bring the portable CD player with some Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Industrial Techo (REAL TRENDY Torsten), etc. etc.

Good point on us hobbiest and MER. I sometimes think mine is about 6" from the muzzle.......

ofta shovel more snow!

cHAO!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 15:28:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.79)

Haven't got my TS yet. Sounds like an interesting argument. But Norm is no longer in the Marine Corps. His arguments, although backed by experience and opinion, are not of the service user.

If I remember correctly, the Designated Marksman is NOT a sniper, although he should get sniper training.

The M25 DOES require more maintenance than any other as-issued rifle in the conventional GP-forces platoon inventory, and will be another specialized rifle requiring maintenance. If the Marines can't fix it, at Division or Depot it'll have to go back to Quantico or Crain, Indiana. But the M16A2 with Green Tip does not perform like 7.62. And if he runs out of M118 or whatever they issue him, the Marines still DO issue 7.62 ball for the M240G machinegunner. Argue or not, 7.62 in either form will out-perform Green-tip ball in penetrating cover. Period.

Even if we bought every Infantry soldier/Marine all the optics and add-ons of the Special Operations-Peculiar Modifications (SOPMOD) kit (now the MWS, Modular Weapons System), they would still not gain anything if they're not on the range or in the field live-firing, no matter what the weapon.

We could take one M16A2 per squad and put on USAMU mods (a flat-top, heavy barrel, free-floated fore-arm, and two-stage trigger, with say a 3.5-10 M3), and the DM would still have only Green-tip ball to shoot. Don't know if you've tried shooting that at 500 and 600 yards, but consistent it's not, even if all you're trying to hit is an E-type (which is the target used for Infantry Match "Rattle-Battle" courses of fire). None of the service teams use out of the box Green-tip for the premier combat event in the country. And it still won't defeat cover like 7.62. You'd STILL have to get the DM to the range for trigger time, which I think is today's force shortfall.

Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki told the Army to lose weight (go from heavy M1 tanks to wheeled APCs in two brigades), take soldiers off of staffs and back down to divisions, and cover more killing ground with snipers and crew-served weapons. Sounds like another dinosaur?

Maybe we should bring Norm back as Commandant, since everyone else in the Marines is such a blind moron.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 15:37:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 16:18:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

We re-invent the rock all the time. Remember the Russians/Soviets had/have an organic SVD sniper in the platoon/squad, specifically tasked to own the ground from the end of AK range out to 800-odd meters with a "7.62 M14" equivalent, and the SVD is no match for the M25/DM rifle.

Ignorance is a terrible thing, and I don't pretend to mind-read the intentions of the Marines and Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico.
Great discussion, though.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:12:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Why did they even come up with the DM role anyway? To be able to engage targets at longer ranges with better accuracy? Does the DM receive additional Sniper/Long Range training? Without training, it doesn't make a lot sense no matter what weapon system he gets.
I think one of the reasons they stayed with the 7.62 round is that there is match grade ammo in that caliber. I have shot some Greentip from the 200 and 300 yard lines out of a NM AR15, and it I could hold the 10 ring at 200yds pretty easily, and shot in the mid 90's at 300, but at 600yds, it was not even close to being competitive. With my handloads, ( 75gr AMAX ) mid to upper 90's at 600yds are the norm with the AR15. Ditto, with my old, antique, M1A, and handloads, or M852. However, the M118SB is not that good.
As I understand it, the M25 uses a special stockliner that is actually bedded to the McMillan stock so that the receiver legs are not riding on the bedding compound, but against the the steel stockliner. As for reliability, I think the M16A2 probably has the edge. My kid shot 1500 rounds out the NM AR15 without a single malfunction last year. I did the same with the M1A. I did break the firing pin in my M1A after 7yrs of shooting though. After about 11000 rounds of live fire, and who only knows how many dryfires.
Why not have LC develope some good ammo with some Sierra, or Hornady bullets for the M16A2?
Seems like a good idea to me, and I am sure that it has been suggested.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.196)

Ok, here is my take. As currently planned, the DM is required to carry a DIFFERENT caliber than the rest of the squad. This means he is limited in re-supply and can not use the normal service ammunition, should he need it, by simply scounging some off his platoon mates. Since he is going to be required to carry a different ammunition anyway, why not give him a .5.56 MATCH grade round? At least he then has options should he be two days from re-supply and have run dry of match. This seems to make more sense because you just NEVER know what the situation will be. Why not at least give the guy the ability to support his platoon at all times, no matter what happens?

We HP shooters fire the 5.56 match rounds at 600 all the time with excellent accuracy to and beyond these ranges with OPEN sights. Add a scope and you can do some excellent precision fire. Sure, penetration may be less…but is it really that important? If he has to defeat something he can go to the M855 which penetrates BETTER then the normal .308 round from what I have been told. Hell, if it goes through a kevlar pot at 800 meters it is doing its job. Now I grant you, with M855 he may not get a first round hit at 800 meters. But since he is only suplementing the fire his platoon is already putting out, he can shoot more than once from his position. This is not sniping in the traditional sense. He can shoot all he wants until the target is nuetralized. Chances are he is not going to try to penetrate something that far out anyway. His just there to place fire onto targets that an open sighted rifle can not accurately engage. If he can walk a round into a bunker slit at 400 yards, he has done his job as intended. He ain't a sniper and does not need to be saddled with a highly modified and sensitive rifle. He can support his platoon effectively with either a 7.62 or a 5.56 rifle, but it makes more sense to give him what everyone else has, albiet in a modified form.

Now, even though the DM might be carrying a 5.56 MATCH cartridge, he would at least have the option of switching over to ball ammo if in the midst of a fur ball, he runs dry and can scrounge ammo from his dead or wounded mates. Which is 100% better than having no ammo at all for his specified rifle. Sure, he can grab a M16 off a dead guy, but then he defeats the purpose of having a scoped rifle. The alternative is that he never shoots his rifle unless something outstanding needs shooting, and that option is unrealistic.

If the argument is that he needs a 7.62, I could see it. But not THIS particular 7.62! The M14 is known to be a nightmare in terms of long term abuse where accuracy is concerned. You mention all he need do is walk over and grab some 7.62 off the M240 gunner which is now pretty much the platoon level MG operator. Well, I hate to have to point it out, but the M240 is a 5.56mm weapon. It was made that way so that it could fire a round interchangeable with the current service rifle and it even takes magazines used in the current rifle. So you see, getting 7.62 may not be so easy once in the field and in the thick of it. Besides, the 7.62mm ball is no better than the M855 ball in terms of accuracy, so this is not a really good argument.

No, I do not think everyone in the Corp is a blind moron as you suggest. But those who have to make these final decisions listen to people at the lower levels who have had loving competitive experiences with the M14. Many of them still pine for the M14 because of the cartridge (the age old debate of large or small caliber goes on and that is not what this DM argument is about), but most will admit if pushed the M14 rifle itself is problematic in a combat environment. If you HAVE to give the DM a 7.62, at least give him an updated and reliable rifle. Not a rehashed M14.

I do not disagree that a 7.62mm rifle is needed in Spec Ops units, SEAL units, and for other specially trained operators (snipers) that can benefit from the caliber, particularly since they all carrying specialized weapons anyway. My point is that the Designated Marksmen is still a plain old grunt with a little extra training. He can best benefit from using what everyone else in the platoon uses, only at greater ranges. But if he is to be an effective part of the platoon, it doesn't make sense to give him a rifle system completely outside the scope of that platoon. Or worse, one that will plague him with performance problems once he gets it filthy and wet.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:34:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

My view of the designated marksman, and I believe this was to be his purpose in the Corp, is a normal soldier that can effectively shoot hit targets beyond the expected range of his platoon mates. He is to be able to fill in when against a target, like a machine gun nest, where the normal open sighted rifle shooter may have a hard time hitting. Marine rifleman are expected to be effective to about 500 yards. The DM should be able to hit out to about 700+. The platoon is NOT getting an extra member in the team. They are simply providing one of the team mates with the means to reach out farther when necessary. He is still part of the standard platoon. In short, he is a rifleman. So, to give him something totally different in terms of system and caliber just doesn't make sense to me. The official DM is basically what troops have been doing in an unauthorized manner for a while. A lot of troops take a detachable scope with them and stick in their ruck for a rainy day. The DM is a great idea in that is makes the practice official and like Dave pointed out, hopefully gets him more trigger time.

To answer your last question, I think, budget allowing, (and it won't under the current admin.) installing an ACOG sight on every rifle in the platoon could have its advantages, so long as the regular sights were retained. But it ain't going to happen until the budget allows for additional training and for the units themselves. Even if this came about, the DM would still be a valuable asset because in every platoon there will always be one individual of extraordinary skill who can reach out to where his more average buddies can not.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:45:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Tampon´s and gun oil !

you´ll never find more compressed cotton than in one of those, and there nicely wrapped.

just a drop of oil on it,not to much to soak it, some sparks preferably from a Gerber firestarter, Fire !

t
t <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
Fixi´n for a 3 day FTX, in , G3 ermany - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:50:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.246)

I also have to second Dave's comments on the bolt gun for the DM. Bad idea. It singles him out even worse than the M14,it removes one member from the platoon in terms of mutual fire support and introduces yet another system to the T&E. It is simply not needed when you can just accurize an M16.
Lets face it, the DM was supposed to be a guy in the platoon that could enhance the range of the platoon with out effectiing its current capability. Make him too specialized and you remove his GENERAL usefulness to that platoon. We got to keep in mind, SNIPERs aren't going away. They are still there and we need more of them. But the DM should not be confused with a full blown and trained sniper.

I think that is where the problem is. These seems to be some unsettled debate over the role and definition of the DM with in the training commend structure. I guess my own attitude, right or wrong, is the KISS principle. Keep it simple and effective. Don't specialize him too much and make him a mini-sniper with all that entials. Keep him a plain old grunt with long range ability. It'll be better, I feel, for everyone in the end.

If we are going to send a DM to six or eight weeks of sniper school, then he is a sniper and not a DM. Better to send him to the appropriate amount of school to train him in wind and range esitmation leave out all the field craft stuff specific for a sniper team expected to survive in pairs only. The DM doesn't need the field craft end because he is part of the platoon, and not detached from it. Make sense?

Hey Dave, good conversation! This is the way it should go in the Roster. Swapping ideas with out the abuse. Thanks for the valid questions. I can't tell Quantico what to do any more than the Chandlers, but as a tax payer I can question a decision I feel is based on faulty thinking. They can read this and tell me to go pound sand. But I would wager many of the instructors at Quantico might find merit in my argument.

By the way, the Russians look like they are now fielding a bolt rifle for sniping in the traditional western sense! The SVD will probably remain a DM type rifle as it has, essentially, always been. But their special force units are requiring more accuracy. I however, would have to argue with you, in a gentlemanly manner of course and for the sake of argument only, that SVD is a more relyable weapon system than the M25 or the old M21. Maybe not as accurate of course, although some russion snipers are claiming they could hold moa or better. Still, it does seem to suffer a lot less of the operational relyability issues that have plagued systems based on the M14. According the the article I referenced, there was talk of WELDING the scope mount to the M25 fer christ sake!! ick

Got to run. Good topic today. Perfect for a snowy day.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 18:05:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Ammo consistency. I agree we need a 5.56mm Match cartridge. Or will it be two, one for the 200-300 lines, and one for 500-600-1000 slow-fire lines? Or one for all lines (back to good, honest-to-God magazine-fed battle ammo which we can also use in combat AND for Rattle Battle)?

Or tighten quality control on Green-tip (after all, it's the US-produced version of a NATO standardisation spec). I don't know -- sounds like more politics and money, and maybe not for this board. Maybe use the Bofors Tungsten-core AP round, but then you'd have to issue another different ammo line to platoon level.

Heck, my own Rattle-Battle load is based on a magazine feed 75 grain Hornady Match, which I've fired out to 600. But my Slow-fire load to buck wind is a single-fed Sierra 80, which is too long to feed from a magazine.

Hear, hear on training and shooting! If your son isn't already Distinguished, it's nice to know that by shooting National Match Course with an AR he has already accomplished more than most uniformed troops in service today have ever done with their organic assigned M16A2 -- at ranges to 600 yards with iron sights.

How about training soldiers to shoot? One of the things Major General Boykin, the CG, US Army Special Operations Command has kept at the fore-front of his quality training campaign is the intent of having soldiers OWNING the ground with their direct-fire M4 or M16A2 from muzzle to 300 yards.

It was a sad day when the last M14 left the squad (when I went to Ranger school in 1981 we had all M16A1s, and 1 M14 per squad during mountain phase. Can't remember if we had them in Benning or Florida, since I always seemed to be dragging a radio or M60). When one goes off in a near ambush, it's like E.F. Hutton's commercial -- you know where the 7.62 fire is coming from.

The SR-25 is far worse than the M25 as far as quality control, in my humble experience as a Special Forces Company Commander who has owned them.

The M240G is the 7.62 machinegun, based on the MAG-58, replacing the M60A3 in the Marines and the M60 in the Army. The M249 SAW is the 5.56. And neither service seems to want to retire the 7.62 machinegun. If it's available at platoon level, a DM gunner can get 7.62 ammo (he'll probably have to de-link it, which is unauthorized in peacetime. Geeze, Louise!
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 18:06:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Name: Eustis Gun Club, Inc.
Has a 100 yd and 200 meter rifle range, and six other pistol and shotgun ranges.
It is about 25 miles NW of Orlando.
Dues are $56.00 yr plus a one-time $20.00 initiation fee.
Must be a member of the NRA to join.
New members are voted in by general membership after a 60 day probationary period.

Club By-Laws: The object of this organization shall be the encouragement of organized rifle, pistol and shotgun shooting among public minded citizens resident in our community, with a view toward better knowledge on the part of such citizens of the safe handling and proper care of firearms, as well as improved marksmanship. It shall be our further object and purpose to foward the development of those charactistics of honesty, good fellowship, and the foundation of true patriotism.

If interested, E-mail me for contact names and directions.

Central Florida <R356C@AOL.COM>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 18:30:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.68)

I think both arguments are good, but there are two real questions: Whether the DM should use the 5.56 or the 7.62mm rounds and if the latter, should he use a M14 variant or another weapon. I'll take them in order.

The 5.56 round is: available to everyone in the squad, accurate up to about 500 yards as is, the M16 system is easy to maintain, and would simplify supply. Its major downsides are that the green tip is wild past 500 yards and penetration is an issue. The argument that HP shooters use it at 600 with good effect is a non-starter because the bullets they use can't be fed out of the magazine.

The 7.62 would be a great round because there is match ammo available and penetration and accuracy are much better 'out there' than the 5.56. The downside is supply and non-common ammunition with the remainder of the squad/platoon.

Overall, I think the use of 7.62 is a better choice. Because he should be using a different ammo than everyone else, and his zeros are established with that ammo, it really doesn't matter whether he is scrounging from the MG or the other riflemen. The better penetration and accuracy out at the edge of his range would, IMO, tip the balance. Also, the DM could provide heavier support to a squad when the MGs are off somewhere else, which the 5.56 wouldn't do. The complicating factor is terrain, where the 5.56 is better for jungles and 7.62 for open and mixed cover. What might serve the Marines better would be to buy some flat top uppers, and issue both systems to two companies in a battalion and see which actually works best in exercises.

For the 7.62 rifle, it would be hard to justify not using the M25. Since ya'll snipers have moved away from it, they probably are sitting on a shelf or being used for training. The support and maintenance for it are in position, and the cost for issuing them is minimal. The cost of obtaining new weapons, accurizing them, and maintaining them would be too high to be competitive. Bolt guns are a non-starter because they are not snipers and need the firepower of a semi or full auto to assist their squad/platoon in firefights.

The idea of putting a red dot sight or Aimpoint on everybody's M16 could be interesting. Since a marine is defined as someone who could destroy and anvil with a rubber mallet, just how long do you think they will last and what do they do when the batteries (and the spares) are drained and supply says "They'll be on the next truck." For the same reason, I am doubtful that the Army's "Land Warrior" system will be effective. Looking at pictures of that thing, with a scope, night vision, camera, and God knows what else hanging off, the only things I can think of is that it is too heavy, too bulky, and much too expensive to issue to all 500,000 combat personnel.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 19:29:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Has anybody here seen the Israeli M-89SR? It's a bullpup .308 modeled after the M-14. I've been talking with some guys at the company that manufactures them, and they're claiming 0.5 MOA with Federal Gold Match. Not too shabby for a semi... The issues about specialization, being singled out because of weapon appearance and report, etc., would still be an issue, but you'd have the power of a .308.

Question on identification of the DM based on the report of the shot... what if the weapon, even being .308, had a supressor on it? I've no direct experience with supressors, but could you muffle the sound of the .308 to sound more like a .223?
Jeremy Dombroski <jdombroski@origin.ea.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 20:33:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.12.170.6)

We were taught "If you see it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can kill it."

I know guys who said "I hit that guy four times in the chest, once through the heart (with Green-tips) and he didn't go down 'till I butt-stroked him." If I hit it, I want to kill it, not upset it or get its attention.

No reason for a DM if everyone in the squad (including the 203 gunner) knows how to shoot an M16 correctly. I've hit iron maidens out to 740 yards, iron-sighted, with a standard A2 and irons and Green-tip, without monkeying with the rear sight drum. But you can't depend on the ranking guy on the team, squad, or platoon to be the best shot -- he's too busy commanding. My team sergeant and I were very proud of our ODA's ability with the standard A2, and you can imagine the range improvement they got when the team bought cheap carry-handle mounts and 3-9 Tascos and Weavers in the "Old days" out of our own pockets. Instant reach extension to 600-700 for every other guy on the team. But the 7.62 will defeat deeper into cover the bad guy is hiding behind.

Oh, and yes, if I remember correctly, the SR25 was one of the DM competitors. If it was anything like ours, you'd better carry a bunch of extra extractors. No woory with it as far as accuracy -- ours shot Ball better than it did three different flavors of Match (118, 852, and FED GM).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 20:53:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Kevin

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 22:02:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.228.64.77)

Question on shooting over snow......yesterday the sun came out after I got home from work. Took the Bolt Tactical Weapon System out in the backyard and spied across the cow pasture. Like to have blinded me. Have never shot over snow before and had no idea the glare would be that bad. Any way to eliminate this problem?

Second question on tracers and AP rounds.......Will they damage a barrel?

Just got to pondering today what I would do if I was a sniper-type dude and had a mission in this weather, wind blowing about 35 at a temp that will get down to 15. Would the mission be aborted or would you just do the best you could trying to dope the wind?

Not having been in the military I don't understand the concept of a designated marksman. It would appear that the engagement distances that the 7.62 would be used for are not the practical distances for troop fire fight. In other words, if you are engaging targets at less than 600 yards, why would you need more than a 7.62. If you do then why don't the services just go to the 7.62 as the weapon of choice. Just take the damn AR chasis and convert it. From what I have seen in the real life battle programs on the tube, I don't remember battles being fought at long distances unless they were armour battles.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 22:19:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.146.164)

I just want to add my two cent to this conversation. As a former Infantryman in an Army (CANADA) that transitioned from FN FAL (C1A1) to C7 (M16A2 w/ A1 sights, and Auto not burst) and then to C7A1 (flatop w/ 3.4x Eclcan C79 scope) I can guarantee that I would bet my life on iron sights, and bitterly object to equiping a platoon with optics. Once we went to the C7A1 the brass was happy - increased range scores, so less training time less rounds fired etc.
But come field time they break, fog, covered in sand. You can't jump them in a conventional sense - so should we just pack all our weapons in samll door bundles that go out befor ehte troops?
We went down to Bridgeport Ca. to play at the USMC MWTC we left our rifles in camp becasue they did not want the scopes broken during field training! Scopes may look good on paper but don't measure up off the rifle range.
A designated marksman or sharpsooter (whatever) with a scope can go a long way to increasing the Pl firepower, but not if the scope is damaged or lost. A throught the top screw mount is the way to go for toy stil have the iron sights if you lose or break the glass or you do not have time to remove it from its padded container (that they require)
As a side note we suffered (and so have the Brits) several friendly fire causalties during LF raids etc. due to the tunnelvision that occurs from the singular use of scopes.
K
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 22:24:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.228.64.77)

Good tip on a fire starter, but you should've told us readers to remove the girl first.

Brian S,

Go with the Badger base. Space the rings to allow seasonally shifting the scope forward or aft as clothing requirements change. With several guns with a standardized Badger base platform you can easily swap out scopes (and rezero) to change configurations as needs demand. Coupled with an MWG ACD (Anti-Cant Device, level bubble) it's nice. I use this setup on a PSS 308 and it works fine to 1000Y. Depending on your faces structural dimension, you may need a cheeckpiece to take up the 20MOA slope. One of my setups just got bedded into a adj cheeckpiece McMil A3 and it's a much more solid cheeckweld, we'll see if it's a verified improvement.

Good Shooting
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Beach4winter, CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 22:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.195.195)

With the military buying 14.5 inch barrels now, won't a DM armed with a 20+ inch barrel "anything" still stick out just as much as any .308 rifle? I'm guessing those shorter sighting distance on the new carbine will be reducing the average guy's scores out at 600 yrds/meters...is that part of the support for the DM role?

What about the concept of reworking a AR-10T? Looks something like an M16A2, has a whole lot of the same parts, doesn't have the extractor problems of the M25...and with a custom barrel, could probably be a pretty decent 308 DM rifle.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 00:21:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

No one needs a cheek piece for tapered bases.

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 00:23:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)

Hugh
Hugh <feudist@AOL.com>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 01:09:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.191)

Chris (or some Finn)
Can you elaborate on subsonic rifle loads? I have a 6.5x55 w/ a "Vaime"(copy) suppressor. With normal loads it sounds somewhat less than a .22LR, But way more than my suppressed .22 rifle or pistol (my mother loves them) which has a report far less than the sound of the "smack" when the bullet hits the crow, with ear muffs on i have "fired" the 11th "shot" (10rd mag) and wondered why i didnt hit...
A friend told me about a special "reduced loads" powder, IMR SR4759, but i am unable to find it in Norway. Also i've read about people using 12-15grs N110, dacron and cast bullets, but havent dared try it.
BTW. Suppressors are legal and can be bought in every gun shop in Norway w/o any permissions or anything.

M14
What is it? A 7.62x51 converted M1 Garand with det. mag. and select fire?

Bolt
Shooting over snow? 1/3 to 1/2 of my shooting have been over snow, never had a such a problem, except mirage can be bad if it is "hot" (>0°C) and the sun is shining, but it is usually thin.
In loose snow muzzle blast blowing up snow can be a problem, particularly if it is very cold, then it melts and freezes on the rifle when you stop shooting, real bad for an MG3 which may very well jam up.
Shooting prone in snow can also be close to impossible, as your elbows or certainly the bipod sink in unless you bring somekind of shooting mat or a backpack, usually one has shooting sticks though (ski poles).

K
engvoll <engvoll@online.no>
Norway - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 01:11:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.67.112.145)

Yeah, the kid can shoot alright. I saw him shoot a 194 at the 600yd line in the rain. He was using Hornady 75gr AMAX with MV of 2750fps. The Hornady is a full 3moa flatter than the Sierra 80gr at the same MV ( at 600yds). It is real good in the wind too. The AR will shoot very competively at 600yds with the Hornady 75gr BTHP loaded to magazine length, MV is 2750fps, but the AMAX has the edge.

I have been shooting the M1A for about 8 years or so in HighPower, but will try the AR15 this year. I will continue to shoot the M1A's in the Long Range 1000yd Matches. My "Any Rifle, Any Sight" 1000yd Service Rifle is like the early M25 that used the McMillan NM M1A Heavy Fiberglass stock, instead of the M2A. I use the Brookfield Scope Mount with Mk4 Rings, and Mk4 M1 10X scope. Instead of the Barnett like the M25 uses, I use a Kreiger barrel. It works real good. The scope mount has never worked loose, however it took a dummy like me a while to figure out how to get it mounted properly. My only complaint is that is very heavy. Over 17Lbs. I take a lot of heat for shooting this thing, but I usually shoot pretty good scores with it.

Is the DM only something the USMC does, or does the Army have a similar thing? You Mentioned the Mag58, I saw one in a gunshop. Price tag was $12,000. Looked like new to me.

Later,
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 01:16:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.68)

Very nice discussion today. I enjoyed the reading. Although I am sadden at the fact that all Marines used to be DM. I am lacking the insight to the purpose of a DM in mordern warfare. The only thing that comes to mind is defense of the mechine gunner. Please enlighten me to there role.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 01:45:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.231.89)

Kevin, I have always wondered about how well you guys like the Elcan (the PPCLI didn't have them last I worked with them in 92-93). It also sounds like your bean-counters have the same concerns as ours when it comes to protecting the equipment so guys don't train on it. I have had the good fortune of being in an arm of the United States military that believes a rifle is still the arm of the future, and has invested in accessories and ammunition. I have one M4 set up with a Leupold 1.5-5X with mil-dots on a quick-detach mount, and flip-up rear iron sights -- like you, I believe if it can break it will.

Bill B, some minds think alike. I went to the Bob Jones hooded rear sight with a tiny diopter lens in it at Perry when I realized that losing the five inches of sight radius in the change from M14 to M16 meant fuzzy front sight. I shoot the M14 in Palma and Service 1,000 yarders, although I've tried it once with the M16. The jury's still out. I went through Armalite, Bushmaster, and Knight triggers before settling on the Jewell for the M16. The Marines and possibly the Navy use the DM. The Navy builds the Army's M25s.

Hugh, I have read about mini-Palma, shooting your .22 at the 200 yard lines on Known Distance ranges. Very much like shooting at 1,000 yards, because you've got to be able to dope your winds, mirage, and light.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 02:06:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

DM thread:
Wow! I don't know that I can really add anything useful here to all that has already been hashed, but I'll go ahead and say something anyway....

I suppose that I was one of the guinea pigs when the DM started to be kicked around... When I was a newbie in L Co. I was handed an ACOG by my platoon sgt. because I had shot expert at P.I. and just gotten there from SOI (just as they returned from Saudi). I really liked the thing. Ended up in I. Co. before too long instead, and there I had an OEG(?), which would put a red dot in front of one eye while you looked at the target with the other... a cheap laser sight I suppose. I didn't think I'd like the thing, but it did work well. The idea at the time was that every swinging dick was going to get an Armson OEG and then one knucklehead in a squad would get an ACOG, whoever had the best rifle-range scores.

I'm guessing, but I think that may have been part of what got the DM ball rolling with the Corps.

IMHO, they ought to do like Bolt was suggesting, make a M16A2 in 7.62 for the DM, and keep him not far from the M240 gunners (since the M60E3s are gone). It'd not be a different system for a grunt to use so they wouldn't have to learn a different weapon, it would carry more oomph than the 5.56; by having a 7.62, I think it would encourage H&S to keep 7.62 match-grade ammo around in quantity... If the DM is just handed a tricked-out 5.56, he'll end up with nothing but green-tip ammo, but by going with the 7.62 he'll probably have quality rounds.... Think about it, if you're a supply fellow, and you know that you have Marines that need match 5.56, you might let it slide and have them make due with greentips; if you have men with 7.62s, though, they CAN'T make due w/ 5.56, so you HAVE to keep 7.62 on hand for them, and the only ones using non-linked 7.62 anymore would be DMs and snipers... It would hopefully help the snipers in addition to making the DM a useful entity in the squad.

Just my humble thoughts..... delivered w/ Esprit de Corps!

-L
Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
VA-TN, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 02:08:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.93.49)

Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 02:29:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.231.144)

The DM started off with the USMC Security Forces in the early 90's. I was in charge of the Security Forces, Pacific marksmanship program. Due to my background with the sniper program I was asked for input into the DM program. DM's were to be the "sniper" for the CQB element of the MCSF. First I argued they should be school trained scout-snipers (8541) first. They shot that down as too time consuming of a training pipeline. And then I argued that the DM should use the M40A1. They shot that down because they argued they needed more firepower/followup shots (we can argue that one all day AND night).

Two entities argued for the M14. One was a certain Major in our S-3 who was an M14 nut. He took our post and station rifle team match M14's, and mounted B-square scope mounts with 6X Leupold COmpacts and some other Scopes I got from Redfield and some other companies. I invited some instructors from Quantico to come out with M40's and we had a shoot-off. Well the FAST "snipers" hated the M14's and loved the M40's. SO guess what the S-3 wanted? Right! The M14's. A few month's later the Major got hold of some Navy M25's with B&L Tactical Scopes and Brookfield mounts. He was in heaven!

The other entity is the RTE shop at Quantico. Guys, the RTE shop builds M40A1's, MEU/SOC .45's AND the Marine COrps competition rifles and pistols. In the days of Reagan they had a butt load of gunsmith's. Now a-days they are cutting back so the USMC MTU needs all the reasons it can to keep these smiths employed. How about building DM rifles? Ahhh... Not to mention all of the M14 recievers that aren't being used since the Rifle Team went to M16's.

LTC Liwanag has a good point about not needing them in the rifle squad. I agree. Only problem is that the Army's and now even the USMC rifle marksmanship programs are going down hill. THe "average" grunt in the Marines is not the rifleman he used to be. This DM effort is symptomatic of the deterioration of the basic soldiers/Marines rifle marksmanship skills. I give the USMC about 5 years and they will be shooting at RETS targets for annual qualification like the Army.

Once upon a time Army and Marine Infantry were "RIFLEMEN". THey and their leaders were taught courses like "musketry", "effects of fire", etc. It was an art to control a rifle squads fire.

Not anymore. Today young officers read Deming instead of McBride. They prepare training matrix's instead of teaching thier men to be one with thier rifle. In bootcamp the reciting of the Marine Creed (Riflemens creed) has been replaced with classes on the "Sexual responsibilities of a Marine" (An actual class at PI). "THis is my rifle"... is now, "Get your hands off my nintendo!"

Does anyone remember the spirit of the bayonet?!

That's my take on it.

Gooch

gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 03:02:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.145)

My personal thoughts is that the 600-700 envelope is all that is needed at a Pl level for individual weapon fire. Special requiments from deploments in peacemaking or peacekeeping ops can be made up with the introduction of extra personnele and/or equipt from higher formations.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 03:25:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.228.64.77)

Pablito,
Badger 20MOA and D.D. Ross 24MOA forward slope bases are higher than just the 5-9MOA over 15MOA bases to allow mounting 50mm scopes with a #7 contour barrel. They're about .13 inches higher in rear if I remember measuring them correctly over MKIVs.
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Beach4Winter, CA, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 03:40:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.195.253)

Which reminds me: in the never ending search for more gooder lighter gear, who knows of someone who could take a bayo and a really good knife, and combine them such that I have a really good knife with bayo hardware integrated? Seems that would be the cat's pajamas.

By the way, the police around these parts have M-14's. Seems one that I talk with (and lurks here) says they cost the department $25 each. Some are select fire, some aren't. It doesn't bother me the cops get weapons like that, it bothers me that I can't get one for $25 too!

Long live the M-25, in any form it takes!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
OUT HERE, Utah, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 05:00:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.148)

Tried to email you offline but my server wouldn't send it...

Have you tried saturating the dryer lint with petroleum jelly. Makes t better in wet weather, burns a little hotter, burns just a little longer. Don't waste money on the "pilot survival bars" for EMERGENCY fire starting (too slow.)

Interesting mental picture from this thread "Hey honey I'm going to the field with the guys-I need tampons and Vaseline...quick!"
David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
Halfway between New York and Miami, NC, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 05:05:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.139.162.16)

Thanks fellas.

Brian S <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
Oregon, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 10:39:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.21.201.170)

Just got my Savage 10FP .308 back from Timney with their new "Featherweight" trigger assembly installed. 2-5 lbs. adjustable, set at 2.5 lbs. WOW, what an improvement over the 2700 lb. pull stock "crank" !!! A good investment in accuracy, IMHO. $85. Their phone number is 602-274-2999 -- Talk to Debbie.
Mitch <malexander@lg.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 15:52:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.35.1)

I too want to understand the logic, or lack of same, for re-fielding the M14 based system. I personally believe it has more to do with budget than anything else. The parts are available and no new weapon has to be manufactured. I still have not seen an argument to convince me that it is the right choice though. Being a big 7.62 fan, I can not argue the caliber choice other than the logistics of it, because it is a very effective round. But I will still maintain that the system for launching it leaves much to be desired. We won't agree, but we sure can enjoy the conversational debate over it! Keep it up.

Dave: My bad on the M240 When I read your comment I "saw" M249! Must be gittin' a bit long in the tooth, vision wise.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 17:50:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

So, while I am not as happy with the taller bases, they certainly work well. I just wish they could be kept lower. The Autauga base is a good example of the extreme. They made it very tall because they believe most of their users will employ a 50mm scope objective. This is contrary to my own philosophy of mounting a scope as low as possible and sticking with 40 to 42mm scopes. It's a great mount, but unneeded for my personal rifle. Doubt I'll ever own a 50mm. But to answer you, yup. I notice the higher cheek weld. Guess I am like the proverbial kid on the bed with the pea under the mattress.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 18:00:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Darrel, are you dry patching your bore before you shoot the first round? This would be the first thing to do before checking anything else. Oil in the bore, or left over solvent, will change the POI. If the first impact is consistent and always falls into the same place, record it and that is your Cold Barrel shot. Even if you can not "fix" it, you will at least have data on where you can expect it to fall each time.

Now, this segues into another good topic (although, by ALL MEANS, please continue the DM issue!). Cold Bore Shot. Let's hear from you LE shooters. Do you prefer to keep oil in the bore during short term storage and record the subsequent change in first round POI, or do you prefer to dry patch after cleaning for a more consistent CBS, at the risk of less bore protection? If YES to the former, do you make it a habit of dry patching prior to deploying to a call out, or is that simply impossible due to the time constraints? Personally, I would hate to shoot with oil in the bore, but I understand that it may not be an option since your rifle might be stored for a long period of time before being used earnest.

ALL: have a great weekend. Been a good week on the roster.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 18:16:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

The SAS survival handbook by John Wiseman is a must have for anybody interested in survival skills. Firestarting out the yang.
As far a chemicals go,

Potassium permanganate and sugar mixed 9:1

Pour out some PP and a sprinkle of sugar, and ignite with friction.

Also Potassium chlorate and sugar with friction, or PC with battery acid.

Something I have been thinking about is the small Carbide lamps that highpower shooters use to blacken their sights.
I bought mine for $15 dollars. It is a small cylinder an inch in diameter and about 2 inches long with a built in flint.
All you do is carry it with some Calcium Carbide "rocks" inside, when you need a flame, hock a lugee in it, screw the cap on and hit the flint to produce the flame from the methane gas it produces.
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 20:59:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.13)

Kenya thanks your right if there is insufficient clearance or binding between Baer or Autauga bases and MK 4 rings they may shoot loss (like M-14 scope mounts). I will be looking for that now. Is there enough clearance for MWG or GGG ring (They advertise a larger recoil lug) on Baer or Autauga Bases?
CJ
 

Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 23:53:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.231.185)

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