Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

January 2000

Don't worry men. I'm on Y2K duty your calls will go through. Your all safe don't worry about thing. It's all under controlda;sjgfa;l ;ljdghsa;osuyavpny [eowt[oiqhHappy New Year!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 01:34:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

CDC,

A guy named Jim Bartlett sells non-canister grade powder out of Owensboro, KY. Haven't done business with him before, but he has a nice selection and the prices seem right. Check out his website at www.gibrass.com

I'm looking closely at the WC846 ($64 for 8#) for dual purpose, loads in .308 and .223.

I would also say stay away from the IMR 4064 speed powder he has listed there. It is $90 for an 8# keg, for $25 more you can buy canister grade IMR 4064 at your local supply shop and skip the shipping and HAZMAT charges.

Now if only I can find some dirt cheap Sierra 168's to get my fix with....
Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 05:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.206.184)

First off, MANY thanks to the guys that keep this page up. And MANY thanks for the good help and friendship I've got from here. You're a bunch of great people. May the wind always be to your back, unless you're hunting! Happy new year, and may the next be prosperous for us all.

Second off, in the never ending search for cheaper stuff, does anyone know if the M-118LR is specifically designed to be compatible with the M-14 based sniper rifles (correct pressure curve, won't beat the hell outta the gas system) and which powder is used in it? I'm hoping to get some surplus powder that would be great with the SMK 168's and 175's. Thanks for the info, I know one of you guys will have this right off (Dave?)!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Middle-o-nowhere, Utah, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 06:12:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.154)

Sorry to all those who jumped all over my posts about loads and such for my PSS. I am a lazy slob and only check e-mails when ALL of the following conditions are met:

1. ALL of the ranges within 100 miles are closed
2. I am completely out of clean brass to reload for ALL of my reloadable calibers. (something like 14 calibers)
3. I have run out of dirty brass that needs to be cleaned.
4. I am positive ALL of my recently unfired weapons have been cleaned in the last month.
5. My wife isn't taking my cometition pistol out to the range, again.

6. I am not perusing through SC to glean useful information from all the posters and council here.

Top Rate site fellas! I have learned more here lurking in the last year than I have in many years of shooting. My experience is mostly pistol competition, but drilling smaller groups at much longer ranges appeals much more now, so here I am!

Happy New Year to all, no matter where in the world you may be!

Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 06:26:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.206.184)

Ralph,

I have met Jeff Bartlett, and he is as good as they get. I bought some LC 223 brass from him last year. About $140 delivered for 5000. I have been using the N140 in the AR, and IMR4895 for the M1A. If I didn't already have 16 pounds of IMR4895, I would buy some surplus and save some money.
Have you checked with Champions Supply in TN for some 168's? what about Widener's also in TN?
I bought all of my bullets at Camp Perry last summer. They are sold at super discounts during the National Matches.

Best Regards,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 07:08:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.53)

P.E.T.A.?

People for Eating of Tasty Animals????
Like Beaver???

Happy New Sniping men.
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
Kenosha, WI, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 07:41:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.7.27.24)

Bravo, I think for your M1A you need to stick with a medium burn rate powder so you don't beat up the gun's gas system and operating rod. Years back the Army studied the pressure curves for the 168-175, 180, and 190 grain class of bullets to optimize 1,000 yard M14 performance, trying to keep a 7.62 bullet supersonic after coming out of a 22" M14 tube. IMR 4064 burns at the rate of the "Old" (pre-nitrocellulose composition) IMR 4985 (the older 1950-early 1960's mix was guncotton, according to Bert Rollins of the Virginia and Palma Teams, if I remember correctly). You'll probably also get good results with Varget, Vihtavuori N135 or N140, and Hodgen 4895 (I don't know if they have a short-grain cut as well). Don't know about other powders, anyone else? I like the 4064 and Varget, but 4064 has a slightly longer grain -- I have to use an RCBS trickler to get the final desired charge for long-range loads (hand-weigh each of them. I know, it sounds like an anal-retentive benchrest thing, but I psychologically think it's noticeable when shooting at 1,000 yards with an iron-sighted M1A).

One of the things I've been discussing with Bravo off-line is trying to get him to go to Camp Perry and shoot at the Nationals. Guys, if you don't have a lot of vacation time, but want to really get into this long-range stuff, you can shoot the last three days of the Nationals during "Long Range Week." Prone 800, 900, and 1,000 yard matches, using iron sights, service rifles (bring what you got -- M1s, Springfields, M1As, ARs) or NRA Match rifles (anything besides a srevice rifle). The Wimbledon and Leech Match is any rifle, any sight at 1,000 yards. This year's Farr Trophy Match (1,000 yard service rifle, iron sights) was won by Petty Officer (Submarine Service) Jamie Mordarski of Connecticut. Shooting a "Rattle Battle" M14 drawn at random off the Navy Shooting Team truck, he took the honors. He started shooting competitively in February, and got to Perry in August! The last day is the Palma, shot with any iron-sighted .308/7.62 rifle.

Any rifleman can do it if he wants to learn. You only compete with other guys in your classification (you can be a Marksman and be the Gold Medal winner for Marksman Class, service rifle, etc.).

At Perry, Commercial Row has darn near every gadget you can possibly imagine with some Perry Special prices (or they've brought their catalogs if they're sold out of the item you just can't live without). If nothing else, come for a day so you can grab catalogs and buy all those components to practice with for next year.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 16:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

By the way, I think Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks in Arizona has a listing of test loads for the 175 Sierra Match King on the www.accuracyspeaks.com site. (a reprint of his Precision Shooter article). That guy could turn a cinder block into a Palma gun, he's that good! (Well, mebbe not, but all the other guns I've seen or read about, by him, are world-class like-to-haves!).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 17:00:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Happy New Year !!!

Glad to see that we entered the next century relatively trouble-free. Let's hope and pray that it stays that way.

I really need to get a new spotting scope. My budget is limited to $400-$500 and I want to be able to focus down to see bullet holes out to 600 yds.

Any recommendations ?

thanks

Andrew
Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 18:11:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.15.2)

Tactical & Survival Specialties, Inc.is comitted to the support of military and law enforecement special operations and we are reviewing web sites that make reference to our company at this time.

Bill Strang <tacsurv6@gte.net>
harrisonburg , va, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 19:21:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.178)

Dave L,

Do you think that the current IMR4895 is too fast for the M1A? I have been using it for 7yrs or so now. I load to about 2550fps for the 168's and 175's. Accurate as can be. I got Kreiger barrels, and they seem to be holding up very well, with not quite a "one" on the throat-gauge after 2500 rounds. The last barrel lasted only about 4000 rounds before it became a paper-weight. I did try some N140 in the M1A, and it worked okay too. I think maybe the N135 might be closer to the best burnrate.

Best Wishes to you for the New Year!!

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 19:34:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.179)

Well Happy New Year dudes and dudettes! All is well in Hooterville!

Let's get back to shooting again. Subject is wildcat cartridges. Taking stock Sendero's in 300mag, 7mag, 308 and 270 what widlcats would you lkie to build from them?

Also, lets get the gillie suit design subject going again. It got dropped somewhere along the way. I remember a new design coming out of Carlos II that never got anywhere.

Alos, lets start talking about ways to practive for Carlos III.

Have a great year.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 20:19:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.56.226)

Bill B:
I used to shoot 42.5 of IMR 4895 (raw 168's and moly 175s) until I spoke with Burt about 4064, and I feel it is easier on both the rifle and me. The slightly slower burn gives more of a "push" rather than a "slap". My brother gave me some 168/IMR 4895 loads that I thought were on the "HOT" side for my PSS, until somebody told me what was in the USMC "G-4" 4895 load for 1,000 yard M14s (my eyebrows definitely went up and I thought, "Kids (and anybody else not in the Marines), don't try this at home (or in your own rifles)! The Marine captain I was shooting with at Perry was getting split (new) cases and inconsistent groups using G-4 in a tight-chamber, double-lugged 1,000 yard gun. The Lyman 46th and 47th editions have the highest powder charges of all the manufacturer's books out there, and those would be the ones I'd buy if I didn't already have a good reference book (a no-kidding "These are max'es, don't bullshit or your guns will blow up and your pecker will fall off" kind of text).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 20:36:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

I'll go along with "Sinister" Dave on the 4895.
I found 4895 too fast in my M21... by the time I got the speed I needed (2650fps), I was getting real primer signs. After trying several of the "regular suspects", I tried AA2520 in IMI military match cases (185-187 grs), and found 43.5 of AA2520, and 168 SMK's gave me 2650, and a slide velocity that just "kissed" the receiver, and groups were 3/4" or better... with primers that looked better than Fed GM match... and the stuff just pours through a progressive press.
I Luv it!

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 21:05:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.13)

Dave,

Thanks for the info on the IMR4895. Maybe IMR4064, or even some N135 would be better then? I am getting great accuracy with the IMR4895. It's loaded to 2550fps for 168 SMK, and 175 SMK's. No pressure signs on anything. The primers aren't flattened at all. Edges are still rounded. I got a minimum headspace, and minimum freebore chamber, and am getting three loads per new LC Match Case with no failures at all. I could prob get more, but I plan to use this LC Brass in a boltgun when I finally get another one. It should go another 3 or 4 times out of a bolt gun.

'Lito,

AA2250? Is that Accurate Arms Powder? 2650fps is about what I get from Federal Match out of my M1A's. You got a bolt gun? I found an early Rem PSS with the 24inch barrel. Asking price is $569. Thinking maybe put a Heavy 26 inch Kreiger on it. The PSS is a little too light for volume shooting. Maybe contour the Kreiger like the M24 barrel. That ought to add some weight to it.

Thanks Guys,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 22:41:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.83)

DC8...

Yup, it is Accurate Arms AA2520 (not AA2250 ;)...

If you get a PSS, keep in mind that the barrel is a medium weight, with a big step in the contour about 4" in front of the action... and the M24 is straight to the muzzle, with about .20" taper.
I don't know if there's enuff "meat" in the walls of the stock to enlarge it to take the straight barrel... call H-S Precision before you buy it (they might mill it out, ask them)... these projects can get expensive, as the unknowns keep popping up.
Often, what seemed like a good idea, turns out to be the cost of a premium rifle, and what you have is an over the counter gun with a lot of add-ons stuck to it, and you can never get your money out.

For example, you spend 560 on the gun... 400 to 500 on a good barrel, and if the stock can't be opened up, there's another 300-400ish for a M24 style stock (with full barrel channel)... were talkin' 1500 to 1600, and you still got a humped up PSS... and for another 200 or so, you could build a top gun on a 40-XB barreled action, and have something major, with resale value. So walk slowly. It's different if you already have the gun, and shot it out, and are looking to up grade it... then you're already saving 560 or so.

Check with Jerry Rice, I've seen his guns, and they are quite good.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 23:29:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.13)

Bill, I think I'd stick with the 4985 if I were you -- "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Heck, if you're getting good accuracy with both bullets (and they're still supersonic at 1,000 yards in the summer?) why mess with success?

Rand Constantine or somebody else I've read said you should go 4 reloads (five firings) from a Lake City case fired in an M14, then chuck the case in the trash (I'm using Lake City Match brass as well, but like Pablito I'd be using IMI if the CMP/DCM didn't offer such good bargains). Are you checking inside to make sure you're not getting excessive case stretch?

Your Krieger should go 3,500 to 4,000-4,500 rounds before starting to open up. A Krieger, Obermyer, Andy Weber (Armament Technology), or other good-name heavy should be the cat's meow on a 700. You can shoot out the tube on the PSS working up loads before having to buy a new (heavy) tube, but I agree with you that the PSS won't do the true volume of an accuracy or heavy practice long-range queer.

Andrew, I doubt you're going to find anything in the $400-500 range that will let you see 30 cal holes at 600 in black targets. I use an 80mm KOWA 821 with a 27X wide angle eyepiece -- beautifully clear, and is probably your best compromise before going to a $2,200 German-made 100mm Optolyth. About $550. Try the bird-watcher websites for data and comparisons on good 60mm and 80mm spotting scopes and binoculars.

Bolt, as for camouflaging and ghillie-ing up, have you thought of spring turkey season? They're incredibly hard to approach, have color vision, process images faster than deer -- and after the shot you take 'em home and cook 'em! You work on cammy-ing up your body and gun, get out in the woods, and get in the mindset for success for keeps. How 'bout coyotes? Just a thought.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 23:31:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Next time you need powder, give VV a try. I have had great results w/ 540 in the .308 w/ 168 & 175 grainers. It can be hard to find locally, but let the guy behind the counter know.
I'm not a cat hater, But there was a website or an organization called FERAL. (Feline Extermination Rapid Action League) Their website was like the 101 uses for dead cats book.

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 00:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.204.180)

I also use IMR4895 (re-claimed) in my PSS. I use around 42-43 grs and 175 gr SMK and Fed match grade brass. That's the load I used at LRR1 last August. At 200 yds, I shoot around 1-1.5 inch 3 rnd. group.
Good powder at a decent price. But, I heard that 4064 is better for a PSS.

Andrew
Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 04:40:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.15.2)

So which stock is more likely to produce the best accuracy? The AICS,UARS, HS tactical ,,or whatever has to be bolt on- no pillar bedding. A Rem700 in 6BR Norma chambering , (which is minutely different than a 6BR Rem), Lilja Hunter Benchrest taper 8 twist will be used in it. Which is more likely stand up under hard use, call outs, (cold weather)..which will maintain a zero better...is there a difference? Any idiosyncrasies good or bad between them? This rifle must be able to shoot the eyes out of snake. Thanks in advance.
Sgt Terry Spicer <terry@awcoldstream.com>
Dryden, ontario, canada - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 04:44:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.211.83.92)

For the one interested in a scope - look into the Shepherd at shepherdscopes.com Very good for the money.

For the one who needs to know the twist rates- 6mm needs a 8" twist to stabilize the 105 grain VLDs. A 9" twist will suffice for bullets under 100 grains. Lighter bullets generally use a 12" or 14" twist. 6.5mm needs a 9" twist to stabilize the 140 grain VLD bullets. A 10" twist in .308 will stabilize just about anything.
Knowitall <dirkster@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 06:53:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.210.137.166)

Michael about eye dom. Sorry I didnt read your post sooner. I have an interesting take on switching dominant eyes for shooting. When I was 17 I lost my right hand in a accident with a 12lb Napolean cannon durring a civil war reenactment, up to that point i had always shot rifles right handed and right eyed. I have now become a better shooter left handed and left eyed then I was as a righty. I can sum up the key to switching eye dominance in 3 words, practice, practice, practice.

Oh and BTW thanks to all on the info about the 7.62X54R brass. I found a place here in my area that sells Sellier & Bellot Ammo that is boxer primed. Anyone have any exp with this brass, thanks again
Bill <Baggins@aol.com>
al, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 07:03:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.130.117)

Terry, I have an H-S Precision 40x stock on my 6mm"Norma"BR which is set up for the 105 grain Berger VLD. I like this stock very much. You should be aware that although my rifle is very accurate I have not been able to make it perform as a repeater. The cases are too short and the bullets are too long which is detrimental to the center of balance. I know what you are trying too achieve. After much thought I am in the planning stages of a 6.5-08 with a 33 degree shoulder and minimum body taper. This would use a 9" twist Krieger to launch 140 grain Berger VLDs. The same thing could be done with the .243 using the 105 grain Berger VLD through a 8" twist Krieger or Hart.
Knowitall <Dirkster@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 07:11:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.210.137.166)

Dirkster, Thanks for info. I was concerned if the 6BR would function as a repeater.. As for the 6.5-08, I am shooting a 6.5x55 using only Lapua brass- the best..I didnt choose the '08 as I wasnt satisfied with "other brass." The '55 Is based on the older AV Sako action, 8 twist shilen barrel, match reamer designed around the Lapua 139- very pleased... I have had excellent results with the Lapua 107's which by the way shoot considerably flatter and hold as much windage as do the 139's out to nearly 700 yards. ( 3150fps) If I was doing it again I would use a 10 twist and shoot nothing but the 107's(. BC is.. 512) How ofter are we shooting at 1000 yards anyway.. I know the 55 needs a long action but it was handy. 325 yard 4 shot groups approx.1 5/8". Best group a 5 shot .125" at 100 yds. regularly shoots in the half inch... Restricted air space for the local coyotes. and other critters. How well is your BR performing for you? Any powder preferred? Have you shot the Lapua 107's in 6mm? Thanks, Terry
Sgt Terry Spicer <terry@awcoldstream.com>
Dryden, Ontario, Canada - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 07:53:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.211.83.92)

Like the site. Keep it up.
Duane Gregory <brushhumper@aol.com>
SanJose, CA, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 08:54:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.152)

Many thanks Dave for the scoop about painting my AICS frame with goop,it worked fantastic!The obnoxious ping is no more.
As far as reclaimed powder goes,that is all I use for my M1A and PSS,use WC846 & 168s in the M1A,same powder and 175s in the PSS.Got bulk powder for my black rifle from Jeff Bartlett also,check his ad in reloading section of Shotgun News.He has once fired match brass occasionally.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 13:24:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.5.208)

'Lito,

Thanks for the info on the PSS upgrade ideas. I got a bud who just upgraded his old PSS with a M. Rock barrel that is contoured the same as his M24. I will take a look at it, and see how it looks.
I think you and I have talked about ordering a barreled action from Rem's custom shop, and then ordering an M24 stock from HS Precision. Something like this would likely be more accurate than a "non-trued" PSS with a good barrel on it. Short-cuts are so damn tempting!!

Dave L.,

I still got over 20 Lbs of new IMR4895, and 2000 new LC Match Brass with 1500 168 SMK, and 1000 175 SMK's to load. I neck size the brass,
and load it to the same OAL as Federal Match. Sub MOA 5 shot groups are normal. My only complaint about IMR4895 is that it does not go through a powder measure all that good. N140 flows through nicely.

On the Kreiger barrel. It was chambered with minimum free bore, unlike the barrel that came from Springfield Armory. Of course they have to be concerned with their liability issues. All I want is as much accuracy and barrel life as I can get. That should not be too much to ask for, should it? By the way, the Kreiger is a 1/10 6 groove heavy stainless. I have never seen a barrel that cleans so quickly.

Well, I gotta get ready for my morning hike, thanks for the advice guys. Have a great day.

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 13:59:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.22)

ACOG 4x32 wanted! Looking for the reticule for the 20
Ding <ding@infoblvd.net>
USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 17:23:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.42.66.150)

I noticed some talk lately on high performance/magnum calibers. These calibers do have advantages in trajectory and wind deflection, but there is a cost to pay for these advantages. The military have some good reasons for using the 308. Barrel wear out is related cartage efficiency. 308 barrels can shoot well after 6000 or more rounds while 300 win mag start to lose accuracy between 1000 and 2000 rounds. The 308 burns very efficiently. It is not uncommon for a 308 to still shot good after firing 100 rounds with out cleaning. Mag caliber’s are lucky to get 20 rounds in a row off before accuracy starts to drop. A 308-barrel will clean up easy after shooting 100 rounds. It may take weeks to get a 300-win mag clean after shooting 100 rounds. Magnum calibers do have an advantage in the tactical matches that are becoming popular. If you make a small mistake in range or wind speed/direction you will still make the shot at much longer ranges than the 308. There is no room for mistakes past 500 meter with the 308. If your are thinking these magnum caliber’s are going make you shoot better you are very wrong. Magnums are hard to shoot well. If you are finishing 3rd place in you matches with your 308 then maybe a magnum will give you the small edge needed to win. If you are finishing 15th to 20th out of 30 in matches the magnums are not going to help you. Your time will be better spent practicing ranging and reading wind with a 308 than spending your time cleaning/replacing the barrel or buying powder for you magnum.

CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 20:33:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.157.249)

Bolt
I noticed a funny thing the other day. I have a Savage tactical in 7mm-rem mag with a 26in barrel. It shoots a 168g match king at almost 2800fps. I also have a 270win-hunting rifle with a 22in barrel. It shoots a 135g match king at 2900fps. I used Sierras infinity to run a comparison graph for bullet drop, wind deflection, velocity and energy out to 1000 meters and guess what? The 270 beat the 7mm mag in bullet drop and velocity. Wind deflection is the same for both of them. These bullets must have very close BCs. The 7mm mag has the edge in energy. Now ballistic programs are not perfect but I have found them close enough for compression like this (I have not shot the 270 past 200 yards). Know I feel kind of dumb for living with 7mm-rem mag and all of its bad recoil, barrel and powder eating when I could have had a Sendero in 270. Run that 270 though its paces before you count it out.

CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 20:34:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.157.249)

Hey guys, anyone heard of this Sibir Optics (Russian) spotting scope? It's a 20-50X50mm folded light path type, mutlicoated lenses. They're selling for $80, tripod included. Normally I would say that I get what I pay for, but maybe someone has tried this and can tell me first hand! Thanks!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Middle-o-nowhere, Utah, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 21:04:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.171)

Bravo;

I borrowed my friends Russian spotting scope (not sure if Sibir) and it was useless at 100 yds. Resolution/focus is just no there. It's OK for looking around but not for shooting. Dave L. recommended Kowa and I've looked through a Kowa before and was impressed. I think I'll save my pennies and get a Kowa.

Andrew

Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 21:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.9.172)

First off, I hope you all had a wonderful new year! I was hoping to tap into some of the infinite knowledge and experience here at Sniper country and get a little advise. I have been shooting competitively off and on for a couple of years now and my Remington 700 VS SF is starting to give out. In short I am looking for a new tactical rifle with a fully adjustable stock, chambered for the 7.62x51 cartridge and a real shooter. I have been looking into the HS Precision Pro 2000 HTR, Sako TRG 21 and Nor-Cal Precision Night Hawk with the adj. stock option. Any thoughts? Is there anything else I should be looking at? I would like to keep the rifle cost down to around +- $2000 US. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

I have found the price on the TRG 21 at http://www.riistamaa.fi/sako/eindex.shtml.
it lists the price of the TRG 21 at 1567.44 USD without the VAT tax. Is this accurate? I have seen prices much higher.

Thanks.

Ryan Lloyd <bfg@home.com>
Penticton, British Columbia, Canada - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 23:47:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.66.179.19)

Spotting scopes…

The sad thing of it is you usually get what you pay for, and optics are no different… but there are some ways to get around the big money required.

There are some things to keep in mind… most spotting scopes are made for folks that aren't as fussy as we are…. And who think spending $150 on a scope is a lot of money… and who only want to look at heavenly bodies (not in the sky!!)… or groups at 100 yards… and most of the scopes on the market fit this category… and for these purposes, they are fine!

The three groups that really push the limits in optics, are the astronomy guys… the bird watchers, and the long range shooters, and I'm talkin' about these folks.
… and from this point on, I'm referring to fine "State of the art" optic, cuz anything less, won't give you bullet holes at 300 yds, much less 1000 yds!

In fine optics, resolution, the ability of a scope to "resolve" or see something, is determined by the diameter of the front "objective" lens… the larger, the sharper... and by the quality if the glass, or mirror.

There are two overlapping laws of optics that define the limit of how sharp the "perfect lens" can be… those are "Dawes Limit" and "Raleigh's limit" 'scope"… both are about the same, and say, in effect that the resolution of a lens in "arc-seconds" (a 1/60th of an inch at 100 yards= one arc-second) is equal to 4.5 divided by the diameter of the objective… so a 4.5" lens can see black and white line grids that are 1/60th on an inch at 100 yds… a 9" lens can resolve lines 1/120th of an inch, and so forth.
Scopes that are made to Dawes or Raleigh's limits, are refered to as "DIFFRACTION LIMITED".
Scopes that are made to this level are the highest sharpness you can get (for that diameter).

(However, to get the resolution of these lenses, the eyepieces must be of equal quality, and that's a big area of let down. With the exception of the B&L, the Swarovski, and the Swift… zoom eye pieces should be avoided, as at the high end, they are soft.)

To get more, you must go to a larger lens.
This is why the spotting scopes keep getting larger. Not because they need the light… they need to keep pushing the optical limits to get more and more resolution.

However… the human eye (If you have 20/20 vision with or without glasses), can only resolve 1" line pairs at 100 yards… If you take a black and white checker board with 1" squares, the average
person will think it's gray past 100 yards. So in order to take full advantage of the 4.5" scope, you need a 60 power eyepiece… if you are only using a 20x eyepiece, most of that $2000 is wasted, and that's why most shooters don't need high end scopes… they just need to "spot" their groups at 100, maybe 200 yards, and for that, a $150 scope will do fine!

Now, there are a lot of junk scopes with cheap objectives around, and regardless of how big they are, you won't see much.

OK… enuff theory… down to more practical things… like how to spend money without getting taken to the cleaners.

At the top of the spotting scopes is the Optolyth 100. There is nothing to come close to it in size (100mm), quality (or price @ $2000 plus eyepieces). Even if you're not using the maximum power this is capable of, the long eye relief of the eye pieces is a joy.

The next group is the new 77mm to 82mm "ED" or "HD" scopes. These run in the $1000 to $1500 range.
One fine bargain in this group is the B&L 77mm "ED", with a 20x60 eyepiece can be had for around $700-$750.
The names to look for are Fujinon, Kowa, Swarovski, Optolyth, Nikon, B&L and the Swift 80mm ED (the only Swift to consider… the rest are POS's)…

The next group of good scopes are the 50, and 60mm also "ED" or "HD"… same names as above, except B&L doesn't make a ED/HD scope in this size anymore. These will run you in the
$600 to $800 bracket, with a good, fixed power eyepiece.

There is a last solution for those that need major resolution for minor money… and that's the small mirror telescopes that are usable as spotting scopes. Their disadvantage is they're a bit fragile, and awkward… so taking them to a sniper stalk is not recommended… but, and this is a big one… the advantage of them is you can get the resolution of the big 100mm Optolyth, and more, for between $500 and $700 with an eye piece.

Those that are often used as spotting scopes are Celestron C90 and C5… and the Meade equivalents. The C90 comes in two versions, one that takes 1.25" eyepieces, and one that takes .96" eyepieces... avoid the latter… there are no quality .96" eyepieces available.
With these scopes… get the best eyepieces they have for them… and you can push these scopes to the limits.

One last fly in the soup… no scope, no matter how good, can see in conditions of heavy mirage, and unfortunately, the bigger the objective is, the more susceptible to mirage it is... so on hot days, over the flats, the 100mm Optolyth with a 70x eyepiece may be the dog of the bunch.

And that's about it... there are no other "magical" $100 scopes from anywhere that'll do what you want, if you want to see bullets at long range (and, of course, heavenly bodies!)

Enuff

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 00:02:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.49)

I know you guys have gone over bedding styles time and time again. But here goes again. I getting ready to do a bedding job on my Remington s/a in a H-S Precision M-24 stock. I remember reading about beading under the barrel itself for an inch or so. Can anybody tell me if this is really needed. Granted the barrels I am going to use are a bit heavy, measuring 1.20"dia. straight for 6" tapering to .970" at 24" over all. I'm going to have the rifle set up as a switch barrel varmint/tactical rig and am conserned that the bedding will be in the way when switching the barrels because I'm not taking the stock off. Simply unscrew one and screw on the other. If you have a comment post it here for all to read but please e-mail me because there are times when I can't check the Roster. Thanks a bunch guys......
Todd <duckman@eznet.net>
Andover, NY, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 00:15:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.105.149.43)

Ryan Lloyd
If you are looking for a really great quality tactical rifle I strongly suggest calling Jerry Rice at Nor-Cal. He really knows his stuff. I should be getting my new rifle from him within the next couple of weeks. It is very much like Mike M's rifle except mine will have an A3 stock, US Optics base rings, and an SN3 scope. I met him last week and he is "good people."

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:16:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

'Lito,

Thanks for the education on optics! I never knew some of these things even existed. Our state rifle team has two of the big Unertl team scopes. I don't think you can see any bullet holes at 600yds with these either. Of course, the mirage was pretty heavy the times I used them.
I use the little Kowa spotting scope with a 20x Long Eye Relief eyepiece. I can see .30 cal bullet holes at 200yds okay, IF the light is good.
Today I was using a Kowa TSN-821 with the Long Eye Relief 27x eyepiece. For $600 or so it is a very good scope.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:21:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.69)

Hi Ryan,

First the price's on the Riistamaa site are correct price's,I have purchased a TRG-21 silencer ( Finnish / aanenvaimennein) and TRG bipod,also a TRG-41 in .338LM.Be aware that English is a second language too them , so keep letter's or e-mail's clear and to the point, the only trouble I had was e-mail's bouncing and misunderstanding due to language difficultie's,you can Fax order if you have e-mail trouble.

Over the other gun's you list I recommend the Sako TRG-21/41 serie's,they are purpose built gun's,for sniping,and the 21 has 10rd mag ,unlike the other's.The Sako TRG-21/41 serie's are in their 1st generation of evolution,the widely acclaimed AW serie's is the 2nd generation of Accuracy International's line of sniping rifle's.
So maybe we can expect some improvement to a already very good SWS, Sako have just recently annonced a TRG-42 in .338LM,it is a product improved 41(more militarised),they are sending me detail's as to the modification's.

For The price listed by ,Riistamma,you get the gun,a mag and sling swivel's,and that's it.
Everything else is extra,eg bipod,silencer,muzzle brake(threaded or plain),QD scope mount's(if you plan on using a scope with a 40-42mm Obj len's the med height is about right).

If you have any other querie's RE : Sako TRG-21/41 serie's,contact me and I will help if I can.

Yours Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:40:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.186)

Lito' That's at least 25 times more than I ever knew about spotting scopes and optics. Bravo!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:41:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I am currently looking for a good combo... Long Range Rifle. I would like to stay with the 308. Could someone recommend a good rifle and optics combo i am new to the sport so all comments are a appreciated. I am looking to spend no more than $2000.00 on the complete set. I understand also I should get a good scope so if this figure is a little more that will be ok. I would love to be making 800 - 1000 yards shots with this rifle at the range and 100 - 600 yard kills while hunting.

Thanks in advance,
Richard
coonsr@pdq.net

Richard <coonsr@pdq.net>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:49:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.118.23.35)

Everyone,
I must state that you guys are a very fickle lot.
Not too long ago, West Virgin'nee sheepies were the 'cats meow ' ( sorry 'lito ).
Now it's big rodents….well, that's what your wives think; bless their dear hearts.

Been hot and windy here in northern Illinois ever since tyrant wannabe Governor Ryan arrived for a New Years Eve party in Chicago.
I guess da Gov. hasn't gone home yet…

Be great weather fer shootin' if it weren't so gall durned windy.
Looks like I'm gonna be needin' some of those piezo-electrically guided bullets.
Anything available in 168 grain yet?

'lito,
If the thorn bush is the state plant of West Virginnee,
then the primary cash crop of Weldon Springs, Missouri is the cocklebur.

Enjoying the heat wave, catchin' some rays…
here in the Land of Politics As Usual

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 02:12:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.31.247.206)

Howdy all,
First off Happy New Year...I'm in nedd of some help I've been looking for somewhere to purchase "Gun Kote" as i'm wanting to refinish some of my weapons with this fine product...I have a custm AR-15 that has the lower refinished with it and have found it to be a very durable finish. A friend of mine had some and did the refinishing for me...he had gotten a can of it for a gun show years back...and he too wants to find somewhere to purchase more. any ones help in this matter would be greatly appreiciated....Thank you.

Sincerely,
Jason D. Sparks
"Sparky"
Jason Sparks <Jaybird117@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 03:28:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.41.171)

Could someone out there give me some help. My reloading manuals are all at the boss's house and I've got a question thats bothering me.

Are there any cartridges that are factory for the Win mod 70 that are 3.790 or longer? I'm trying to figure out if I can rebarrel anr convert my laredo to lazarroni's .300 Warbird after I shoot the barrel out.
Any help is appreciated.

Thanks, Jeff
Jeff Cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
Memphis, Tn, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 04:44:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.27)

Ryan Lloyd, why spend a huge amount of money when you've got the base for a great gun? Call Andy Webber at Accuracy Technologies (in Canada, as well), and I'm sure he can re-barrel your VSSF with a premium heavy 5R barrel like he puts on the AT-1 C24's he builds for sale at Storm Mountain (plus you won't have to put up with the pain in the arse getting it back and forth thru Customs and Excise, although you'll pay VAT). I wouldn't imagine you'll have any problems, and Andy does TOP NOTCH work. He can hawg out the HS stock and bed it if you ask, I'm sure. Your investment: barrel, shipping, and bedding job, with the difference in building a new gun going back into ammo and components!

If your heart's set on a whole new shootin' iron that price for a TRG is excellent.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax , VA, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 04:53:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

On Spoting Scopes. I have been using a Swarovski CT 75mm with a 20 x 60 variable eye piece for many years. Excellent optics. Great for the range shooting at 300 yds and for hunting in the rockies and Alaska. Took it to 3 SMTC courses last year and the match. 20 x 60 is too much overkill, after 25x or so the optics are so clear you can see the moisture in the haze and fog, let alone mirage. For the match and the pre match course I switched the eye piece to a 22x wide angle fixed. It worked out very well for calling hits and corrections at a 1000 yds. It also help me score rather well in the target detection event. The only drawback is it's bulky and heavy. This year I've decided to make a few changes in the optics department. I'm switching from my Ziess 10 x 40 binos to Lieca 8 x 20 mini's. The glass is just as clear as the Ziess and they are only the size of a pack of cigarettes. This time I'm hoping the size of the objectives will keep Kent from spotting the reflection off the objective lens. Got caught on a couple of stalks on acount of this. Also I have had great experiences with US Optics rifle scopes so when they informed me they were now going to get involved with tactical spotting scopes I decided I wanted one. A 60mm objective with a 15 x 45 variable and an interchangeable 10x mildot lens so the spotter sees the same thing as the shooter. Scope will be made rock solid, water proof, nitrogen filled, and compact and will only cost $395. Cost is being kept down by using a combination of German and Asian lenses to maintain the quality and the fact that spotting scopes use far less internal lenses than a riflescope. The only extras I ordered with it are an anodized teflon OD finish and an objective lense filter to stop reflection and eliminate the need for a sunshade. They are also developing a 24x mildot lense for me. I'm looking forward to using it.

Looking ahead for the New Year if anyone is interested in teaming up for the June SS1 or SS2 course and the Sept. match pre training at SMTC drop me a line. I have a new 300 win McBros rifle I want to use this year.
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 05:01:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

165gr AP bullets

Anyone have any experience loading pulled USGI 30 cal AP bullets in to .308? What is the inherent accuracy of this bullet if loaded say Mexican Match to a Fed GM308M round? Finaly, how much greater penetration is to be expected in hard targets verses Matchkings and 147gr ball? I would assume the military had done penetration tests. Thanks.
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
kommi, Fornia, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 07:07:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.147)

Jeff,
Going through my load books I don't see any cartridges that measure 3.790" or longer--not even the big stuff like 458 mags. However, if you reset your gun for one of Lazaroni's cartridges, buy a spare barrel. His velocities look nice, but they come at a price, just like the magnum-mania that has swept everyone up lately. Look at CJ's post, he really sums it up well.

mike S.,

I have pulled and fired some of the 30-06 AP (WW II surplus) bullets through a .300 Win Mag before. Bullet weight was funky, don't remember right offhand, but it was in the neighborhood of 170 grains or so. Wouldn't group no matter how I loaded the stuff, 3" was the best it would do. As for penetration, I was shooting through 1/2" plate steel silhouettes at 300 and 500 yards (when I could hit them). Nice clean holes too, my guess is at shorter range they would most likely tear up an engine block pretty badly. No way a Sierra will do as well against hard targets.
Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 09:09:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.207.9)

I'm trying to locate a former SOTIC instructor and member of 1st SFG by the name of Dean Michaelis who I knew when I lived in Washington State. Dean if you're out there, drop me a line.

Stony
Stony Smith <STONY275@aol.com>
Chicago, IL, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 10:19:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.167)

Tony Dude...

Theres a big difference between "Spotting" the big 4" black splashes a bullet bakes on a white steel target, and the .20" to .30" holes they make in paper. At Storm, I could see the hits at the 1000 yard target with a set of 7x50 bins... it not a challenge.

But the guy'z have been askin' about scopes to see holes in paper... and if you want to see holes in paper at long range, you gonna' need a lot more than a 22x eye piece (and a lotta' clean, quiet air), and I don't care who made the scope.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 11:23:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.78)

To Pablito:

I think I may have misunderstood the term canister-grade. Here in Finland you either have canister-powder with specific number/name and load data or you have some bulk powder that may or may not act (because you do not know what it is) like BL-C(2) for example. Of course you can use any powder for which you have proper reloading tables and so forth. -> I was warning about non-descript bulk powder of which one may not have the needed reloading tables etc.

Still could someone explain me clearly what is the difference between for example canister grade H870 and non-canister grade H870. To me it seems that a powder either is canister grade or it is not. And a non-canister grade powder may or may not have safe realoding data available. It seems that there is something that I have not understood properly.

At least here in Europe canister-grade is the only powder that is guaranteed to work as suggested. That is why it costs more. Factories can use bulk powders because they can tailor the loads as they wish. Non-canister grade is usually pretty close to the canister grade, but it is non-canister just because it is close, but not 100% exact duplicate of the canister grade. Unless, of course the ammo from which this powder was disassembled, was in the first place reloaded with canister grade powder. And bulk powder should differ from lot to lot. Canister grade´s idea is that it is consisten´t from lot to lot.-> Any comments or explanations ??

About pressure barrels: I am sure that most max-loads have been also tested in pressure barrels, just to be sure that they are within limits. At least I would test them if I were a powder producer.

Sibir-scope:

Of course you can not get 500 USD performance from a 80 USD scope. I have one Sibir and I have written down some of the good and bad points of it:

Good: Cheap (if it breaks, you do not need to file Chapter 11 for the household), Rubber armored, reasonably compact and light, this unit is better and cheaper than comparable cheap Tascos or Bushnells.

Bad: Not waterproof, max useful magnification is around 25-27X (but usually you do not need much more), Quality is unit-specific, some are quite good, some are useless for almost anything. Short eye relief.

Experiences: I have spotted .338 holes in brown cartoon and in white paper out to 520 meters in a clear day without mirage. With mirage the scope was useless at this distances. Buth then again so were other scopes we had at hand.

Recommendation: If you need a cheap scope for a hobby, this one is better than most lower end Tascos and Bushnells. At least I have not found any that were better. This unit is light and compact, so it is easily carried with you. If you need a sturdy scope for real world use (hostage rescue, military operations), then buy a Leupold. Kowa is my favorite (compact, good picture quality, does not cost more than my car), but 61X-series are not waterproof either. Leupolds with mil-dots are probably most usefull. They start at around 580 USD.
BTW In the USA you might be able find comparable quality Tascos for less than here in Finland. I think Sibirs are ok, but nothing special.

Heikki

Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 13:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.229.255.17)

Pablito,
Are you saying that, for dual (1,000yd range and field) use, the properly organized rifleman needs two different spotters?
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 14:45:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.41)

I see catching up on the Roster that everyone made it through Y2K(HA).

Bill,
I think it was you who asked about the PSS stock taking a bigger barrel, I had a Hart put on mine it went from 1.25 to .950 at 25" and it fit fine. The VS stock will not take that heavy of a barrel but the PSS will.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 17:10:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Pat,

You put a barrel that goes from 1.25" at the receiver to .950" at the muzzle, and it still fit into a PSS Stock? I ran into my shooting bud who has the rebarreled PSS yesterday at the range. He said his new barrel would not fit into his old PSS stock. He bought a new M24 stock from HS Precision. It did shoot nice though. He managed to get an M24 with the complete kit of accessories from Remington a couple of years ago, and did not want to wear it out, so he built up the new rifle on the old PSS receiver. He used a barrel from Mike Rock with 5R rifling.
I don't currently own a bolt gun, and have considered some of the options available. The most desirable idea to me is to get one of the Armament Technology Rifles (AT1-M24) from SMTC, but I gotta come up with about $5000 for it. Not easy with a kid about to start college next fall. But, I ain't givin up yet.

Thanks for your input, and hope the Year 2000 is very good to you, and yours!!!
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 20:19:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.59)

Anyone care to comment on HK's USP .45 Pistol? I have long been a fan of Colt's 1911 & various clones, but HK's are looking pretty good. The prices have been @ $500 or so for the USP .45 for a while now. (used) I know that the 1911 has long been the king, but I hope that someone with experience w/ HK's will pipe up. I have no wish to start a caliber war, (check archives) just opinions on the HK vs 1911. I have read TS's article on them, BTW. Thanks in advance.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or., USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 23:18:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.204.150)

Have a HK USP 45 and really like it. It is the only semi that I have ever had that I trust. Using standard PMC Ball shootemup ammo last week I put a full clip within the 8 ring at 25 yards.

You better get one now. Hear they have been taken over by Colt and will no longer sell to the public.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 23:44:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.147.19)

Jim, you can't go wrong with a USP 45. I have two; a tactical and a standard. I have reservations about my tactical. If you want to know more about it, e-mail me. As for my standard 45, I would trust it with my life. It is a very accurate gun out of the box. Very well balance. Seems to shoot any loads with out an issue. Comfortable and good sight alignment. No compliants. If this is any indication, all my hand guns are USP and I own four of them.

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 00:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.34)

Hartford Uber Alles? Bolt, you gotta be yankin' my chain about Colt, right?
Thanks for jumping right on this one. Anyone else?
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 01:04:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.166)

Pablito,
the cashiers check for the binos will go out tues.UPS next day letter.should have it in your hands weds. AM.Thanks alot.I am off to shoot a bunch of the bosses 50BMG tomorrow.I am outta here.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 02:23:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.3.171)

Jim,

The H&K USP .45 is an excellent weapon. To give you an idea how strongly I feel about that, my carry guns have progressed from Wilson Combat tuned Colt and S.A. 1911's, to a Wilson Combat CQB 1911, to a H&K USP .45 Compact.
I've had no real complaints about any of my 1911's, they have had a total of 4360 rounds through them with only 2 break-in jams on my Colt, but they were all heavy pigs that would try to pull your pants down to your ankles with an IWB holster, and sweating all over their fine finishes really broke my heart.
I wasn't sold on the USP .45 at first, but a friend had one at the range, it was light and the finish looked similar to a Glock or Beretta (probably pretty durable) so I gave it a function test. 250rnds of mild 255gr lead WC held weak, inverted, whatever it didn't jam. 100 rnds of 230gr Hydra-Shok, same thing, accurate too, blowing the X's right out of the targets at 15yd! After these tests and doing some drills with it "cocked and locked" I was sold!
Sure, the S.A. pull isn't as slick as my tuned 1911's, it's about 5lb with some creep, but it's easily managable. Magazines are my only caveat ($40-$45 if you can find them!) but, 940rnds later it still gets a huge thumbs-up from me.

Bullpup <blackstratguy@excite.com>
Rochester, NH, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 02:33:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.50)

I have made a Ghillie suit out of BDU's and fastened it on with silicone instead of sewing it. What is the Best way to fray the burlap???

Jeff <Bunker_king@hotmail.com>
AB, Canada - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 02:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.64.62.78)

Anyone tried Winchester "Supreme Competition" round? Box says "168 gr Nosler HPBT Match" P/N is S308J A PD rangmaster friend got a case to evaluate, so far it shoots about 30-40% biger groups at 100 yds as compared to Fed GM308M out of the same rifle. Will test it in a couple other rifles as time allows.

mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 03:52:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.148)

To all:
Wed. nite 7pm on USA cable channel Jag episode. Rabb tracks down an AWOL marine sharpshooter.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 04:10:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.131)

Ralph,

Hello I am glad to see someone else from Houston on here. If you dont mind me asking where do you shoot.. I know of america shooting centers rang. I used to shoot sporting clays there but never the range. Anyway, just wanted to say hello and maybe we will run into each other 1 day..

Richard

Richard Coons <coonsr@pdq.net>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 06:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.118.23.35)

Jim,
On the H&K USP. In my mind, simply the best semi-auto pistol out there for defense. I had a USP .45 and put about 10K rounds through the thing. Never once had a jam, never. Broke it in on 700 rounds of handloaded 200 gr LSWC's without a cleaning. It will devour any bullet shape without prejudice. +P loads won't even give the thing heartburn, in fact they tend to shoot tighter the more you hot rod them (use common sense here people, no compressed charges of Unique!) The SA trigger is not as smooth as my limited IPSC 1911, but the USP was my backup for when the 1911 goes south. Can't go wrong Jim.

Richard,

Yes, I shoot at ASC. longest ranges around that I know of. I was out there Sunday battling the 20 mph winds on the 300 yard range. Gimme an e-mail, we'll do some shooting out there sometime. I'm anxious to get to that 500 yard range, hopefully the wind god will cooperate. I keep hearing rumors of a 1,000 yard range here in Houston, only problem is everyone I have heard this from knows of it, but has no idea where it is! Can you confirm its existance?
Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 07:19:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.201.66)

lito:

Your absolutly right about seeing 4" splats on white targets, Hell I could see them with the naked eye. Problem was the spotters shooting second on the line rarely had any white paint left on the targets and this made it difficult for the second spotter trying to call point of impact. All we could do is hope the shooter made 800 yd head shots or hit the target in the nuts where there was paint left. The 22x worked real well when spotting and giving the shooter corrections when the round went 6 feet over and 6 feet left into the tree line. It worked even better when practicing mildot holds or off hand positions and the round went 25 feet in all directions, followup shots were usually dead on. As far as seeing holes in paper, I usually put 1" orange dots on 8 1/2 by 11 white paper out at 350 yds and I am able to see groups if mirage isn't too bad on that sandy range we use by Ft Dix. If I crank the scope up past 30x though you won't even see the paper. Between the sand blowing and the bright sun shinning in your face your lucky if you can see the range in front of you at high power settings. Anyway I like the idea of interchangeable eye pieces on a spotting scope, it gives you a lot of different options as far as reticle and wide angle lenses go. Also you won't out grow the scope if you desire more power to look at the heavens above.
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 07:44:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

On an M14 list I am on there has been discussion about the differences
between 7.62NATO and .308 Winchester. I had thought these were the same round. The discussion concerned the M1A should not shoot .308 Winchester as it would damage the rifle? Is this true? And if so where can I find more information on these "differences"
Thanks.
-elainerd
elainerd <elainerd@excite.com>
Orem, UT, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 08:56:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.190.11.248)

Bolt,

You say that you heard that Colt is taking over H&K? Colt is so broke I don't see how they could swing it.
Colt pissed me off when they quit selling to the public. I liked their pistols, and AR's, but if that is how they feel about the public then I got no sympathy for them. Hell, my next AR will be a Bushmaster, even if I can find a Colt at the same price!

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 13:37:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.76)

Bill B,
I had to cut the barrel channel out but it fits the stock fine. There is plenty of stock on the PSS to cut the wider barrel channel, it is the same stock as the M-24 only without the adj. length of pull. The M-24 has a straight barrel channel cut into it and the PSS has a tapered one to fit the Remington contour. If you look at a PSS stock and see where the barrel threads on the action you will see that you could cut it the same size all the way down to the end of the forearm and still have plenty of stock left on the sides of the barrel channel but not so with the VS as it gets way to thin. It can be done but doesn't look very good.
I too would love to have one of Andys rifles but, like you, there is no way I could ever afford one. I did the 2nd best thing and had my old PSS rebarrled with a top quality barrel by a quality gunsmith (Who builds rifles for a living)and got a rifle that shoots better than I can most of the time for around $500.00 I do my own bedding so I save some money that way but it is a good alternative and if you have a PSS already your action and stock will work fine. All you really need is the action and barrel work to have a top quality rifle. If you add the steel floor plate and buy Brownells TEFLON coating you have nearly the same thing for a lot less. Its more work on your part but you save a lot of money too. My rifle will shoot Federal Match into the the .3s all day long and a lot of times in the .2s if I do my part.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 14:59:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Does anyone live close to the Sierra plant in Kansas? If so, please e-mail me.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 15:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.34)

Pat,

I can handle the bedding, and do the Teflon okay. I got a gunsmith bud of mine who has offered to show me how to re-barrel, and true an action. He makes most of his income by producing match components for the AR15.(Barrels, Tubes, sights etc.) He has done some boltguns for guys we shoot with, and they are kick-butt good.

I don't already own the PSS, but I found one for an asking price of $569 without sights, or optics. It is an older one with the 24" barrel.

I had Win Mod70 HV308 that I tuned up for 1000yd shooting, but sold it a couple of years ago. Now I don't have a boltgun. I got an M1A I use for Highpower shooting. It is a good rifle, but I like the idea of having a bolt gun too.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 16:04:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.177)

elainerd

Fulton armory has a lot of good info on the M1A

for the differences between 7.62NATO and .308 Winchester. check out
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 17:30:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Bill B,
If you don't already have a PSS you might look around for a cheap BDL action and then go with a newer style aftermarket stock, that way you could pick what you want and still not have that much more in it. I have a 40XB H&S stock on my new one and I really like it. To me it appears to be an up dated version of the PSS, it has a flat bottom with a taper to the front and also has the palm swell on only the one side, so the grip is a lot slimmer. I like the classic style of stocks and it is really a comfortable rifle to shoot. Good luck with your project!!! PS: I would highly recommend the Pac Nor Super Match with the 5 grove or a Hart, I have both but the Pac Nor has the edge.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 17:43:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

I have a Kowa TS-614 spotting scope which I am very pleased with. It is very clear from edge to edge and has interchangeable eyepieces which I agree is a great feature. In addition to using the scope for spotting rounds down range I also use it for birdwatching. For this reason I originally did not want a mildot reticle. After attending LRR 1 at SMTC however I see how useful it would be for both shooter and spotter to range targets. Does anyone know if Premiere Reticle or anyone else will install a mildot reticle on my Kowa fixed 20x LER eyepiece? An interchangeable eyepiece with mildots would give me the best of both world.
Paul Martoccia <pmartoc@sprynet.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 18:41:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.168.59)

Are there any reflectivity issues with the "penetrator" lense coatings on the Steiner Predator series binoc's before I haul off and order them?I don't want two bright shiney green lights giving away my location.Does anyone have Butler Creek covers on 8x30 Steiners that knows what size fits?Thanks
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 18:46:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.57)

Bruce,

I bought the Steiner "Predator" 8x30 binos last year, and they are good binos. I have had guys take the things down-range, and glass the area I'm in, but I could not see the "Green" eyes, although I could see the binos. Steiner makes several different models of binos. I got these from a sporting goods store that was going out of business. I think they make a version of the Military and Marine bino that has the Mildot reticle in it.
These binos focus at the eyepiece rather than having a center-focus knob like most other binoculars. Once they are focused to about 80yds you don't have to move the focus rings much (just a tweek) to get optimum clarity. Resolution is very good. They're small, and very rugged. They are armored with od green rubber. Of course they are nitrogen filled, and water-proof. I like them a bunch.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 20:35:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.26)

If you've got cable TV, the History Channel is supposed to be airing "Suicide Missions: Sniper" Tuesday, Wednesday, and Sunday nights (4,5, and 9 January 00).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 21:11:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Elainerd, Re: Difference between 308 and 7.62 Nato.
If you would like to see an interesting pissing match between a guy named Cheapshot and a guy named Kyrie on this subject go here
http://www.paradise-web.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=reloadersshack&all=yes
or click on my name at the bottom of this post.
I do not wish to comment on this CUP vs. PSI debate but I have another slant which I think should be mentioned.
7.62 nato ammo was designed to be fired in full auto and semi-auto weapons and needs to have a proper burning rate powder charge to deliver the right port pressure to cycle the action with a gas operated weapon. Some commercial 308 ammo is not necessarily loaded to meet this criterion. (Hornady light magnums anyone?)
I don't think it would be wise to assume that any commercial 308 ammo is safe to shoot in a gas operated weapon designed to use 7.62 nato ammo. Now if you are talking about using 7.62 nato ammo to be fired in a bolt action rifle, if it will fit the 308 chamber in your rifle, I don't see the harm in it.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 22:24:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.145.202)

The name link thingy did not seem to take on my last post.
One more try.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 22:30:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.145.202)

Bill B,
Regarding your comment about Colt not selling to the public. I agree with you. I will not purchase from any company that will not sell to all qualified Citizens of their own "home" country. I don't think that I am a 2nd class citizen. I love my Country "U.S.A" and I enjoy shooting. I support those companies that support my rights, and sell their products to me. :) Good Shooting ALL
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
cows bay, ory-GUN, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 23:11:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.214.112.143)

Frank,

I think Colt has money problems, and could not afford to lose their government contracts, so they caved into the Klinton admin to quit selling to "civilians". They were over the proverbial barrel. Colt's handgun lines had not kept up with the current trend of hi cap semiautos like Glock, Sig, H&K, etc. The AR15 is being produced by quite a few other companies, and has hurt their sales too.
This is too bad, as I liked the Colt AR's, and their 1911's. I hope they survive, and change their policy on selling to the civilian market. I have seen Colt Post Ban AR's now with price tags of $1500 since they quit selling to us. And right next to it was a Bushmaster that was identical except for Company Logo, and it was $850. Now how hard is this decision? Not very.

I hope the Year 2000 is a good one for you.

Best regards,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:01:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.188)

Hey guys Happy New Year. Received a new Schmidt and Bender P2 4x16x50mm scope today. Nice piece of work. Going to play with it on Thursday. Will write a review when it has proven or not proven itself so to speak.

Stony: I received an email from Dean today and I advised him you were looking for him. First time I have heard from him in months. Hope it helps.

Pablito, Dude you are the 40X King. Hope your new rifle is as fine as the one I just received from Denny's Guns built by George Gardner. Another fine piece in the safe.

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:06:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.196)

Me and a frined of mine were having a discussion and would like input. In the situation that we have contrived, it is necessarry to hit a target moving away from the shooter in a vehicle at an unknown speed. From the shooting position, the vehicle can be viewed intermittently, from 200-900m, but there is no clear shot until the vehicle is more than 900m away. We are NOT planning a crime. This is for the sake of argument ONLY. Using a heavy barreled .50 cal rifle, and without knowing the speed of the vehicle (the vehicle is moving directly away from the shooter), is it possible to make a CONSISTENT shot to the target inside the vehicle (situation assumes no wind and optimum lighting conditions)?

Please do not flame me with thoughts about why this is important. This is just an argument. We are not planning a crime. This was just a drunken argument over shooting theory and now there is a bet riding on it.

Thanks in advance.
Kesse <mrkesse@netzero.net>
Ft Bragg, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:08:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.38.48.209)

Steve: I think you got the 7.62 NATO / 308 issue down pat. If I were shooting a bolt gun (they're made for the 308 anyways) I wouldn't even think twice about it. The 7.62 is a SLIGHTLY (although not enough to tell) lower pressure round. Now, that's chamber pressure, not gas port pressure, and that's the REAL difference. I shoot a M1A, and there's no way I would feed it slow powdered rounds. I LOVE my rifle, why would I want to beat it senselessly into an early grave?

Frank: I'm with you! Colt's been on my ickyicky poopoo dirty diaper list for a while now anyway. If they want to go by prejudiced, segrational policies, I segregate them outta my budget! Besides, it took an angry letter to the CEO to get them to fix my Dad's (new) Detective Special right. For that same reason, I don't buy Ruuuu (in a world of comprimise, some do!), aw, I ain't goin there.

Re: HK USP, or, "why Bravo don't shoot one"
First off, these are excellent pistols. They have one BIG problem though (for me), they're BIG. I'm a short guy, at 5'6", and in my hand (I did the try before you buy thing with 250 rounds and a couple of hours) I had to "cheat" it around just to get a passable trigger finger engagement. Now, I'm not telling anyone not to get one, but if you're of "shorter stature" or have small hands, fondle one in the shop before ordering. This is one pistol that really did impress me, and I don't say that about 1/10th of the pistols I try. Fed like a fire hose, accuracy to spare. Trigger could be better though :-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
middle-o-nowhere, Utah, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:10:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.191)

Has anyone tried to get to the accuracy speaks page?I tried for the last 2 days and cant get it to load.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:13:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.3.148)

BillB;
Thanks for the input and that is the answer that I wanted to hear,but what are you using for lens covers?I'm a Butler Creek flip-up lense cover junkie and I just gotta know if they'll fit.I found these for less than 1/2 what the 8x30 with mil-scale are and just can't pass them up($193.50).Thanks
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 02:54:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.29)

Thanks everyone for the responses re HK USP. I got several e-mails in addition to what was posted. Thanks all. For the record, the only negatives were: a couple of stovepipes, size, dual stage trigger vs. the pull available w/ a 1911, cost/availability of magazines, and the Tactical model has "Tactical" stamped on it. (last one is mine)
As far as Colt buying out/taking over HK, I tried Colt's customer service line, but gave up after being put on hold. Maybe they think a trip down Chapter 13 lane will be more fun hand in hand with HK.
Oh, I went with the USP 45 std.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 03:56:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.204.188)

I think I died and went to Valhalla...
Shot with some really great guys at the Sacramento Tactical Match last Sunday. What a great bunch. I was one of two newbies to the match. I was treated like I belonged...
The match was called due to fog (even though it was 28 degrees we were going to shoot anyway) so thick the first relay could only see a dull glow from a flare @ the targets from 200 yds.
Five of us hung around to shoot for "dope" when the fog lifted and I was ecstatic that I was able to hit all the way out to 900. My new friend Bill and I were shooting together on the first relay and didn't realize that we could have gone to the 1000. That's ok, next time. I now have my comeups that amazingly matched the unfindable program on this site and my Sierra program also. Talk about fortunate!
My thanks to Dee and the others at Sacto for making my first long range experience the stuff dreams are made of!
BTW, we shot on the B-38 targets (half-size silhouette)!
Also my thanks to DC8Plumber for all the answered questions and hand-holding while I was working on my M1A!
And thanks to all the rest of you for the mostly outstanding info!!
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, kalisocialistfornia, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 06:44:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.213)

T-SHIRTS: Those of you who asked for the long sleeve Sniper Country T-shirt...I have 'em. But only one you has ordered one. I still have about an equal amount of XL and XXL. Only nine left. I can not possibly use that many in a year so please place your order!! ;-)
Thanks!

Great show on the History Channel last night.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 12:28:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Bruce,

I use the Steiner lens covers. They are pretty good, and have not cause any problems. They are attached to the binos so they don't get lost. Not sure if there is a Butler Creek lens cover to fit these or not. Prbably is, but i have not checked.

Later,
Bill <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 12:52:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.59)

Bravo - USP Hand Gun Size...

Bravo, I have no problem with their size. I am a 5' 5" 135Lb Asian guy. I find the grip to be very comfortable an I have no problem handling either my 40 or 45 caliber handgun. I will admit though that you should get acquainted with the gun prior to your purchase. This should be the case with any gun purchase. One after thought, maybe the reason it was comfortable or that I can handle it is because of my prior enlistment in the service?

Darren
Semper Fi...
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 16:13:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.35)

Dennis, (usmcspud)
Can you post or email info on the tactical matches in the Sac. area. I can make that drive in 8-10 short hours. Also can anyone inform me regarding tactical or long range matches at Douglas Ridge near Portland Or., (nice range).

GOOCH,
I was pleased to read your recent articles in TS. You have a great teaching talent thanks for sharing it with us.

Good Shooting all have a great century!
FRANK <kubikari@goplay.com>
port awful, oregunns, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 16:21:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.214.112.211)

Has anyone tried the Federal GM308M3 155gr Sierra MatchKing BTHP load yet? Will it shoot from a 1-12" twist? The flatter trajectory compared to the 168's and 175's looks real nice. Thanks in advance.
Bullpup <blackstratguy@excite.com>
Rochester, NH, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 17:23:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.246)

All,

I was looking for some info on the SKS ban/turn-in in Kalifornia. I had heard that only about 400 had been turned in as of the end of '99. I'm quite curious at the fact that there has been no convulsive liberal news coverage of the situation.

Does anyone know what's developing in that arena? Please post a sitrep for us. Thanks in advance.

Semper Fi!
Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
PA, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 17:30:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.32)

Hey out there, I need some help from the "real" (as in guys that use issue stuff) snipers. You guys that have lots of experience with the 173 grain "special ball" round, preferably shot outta the M-21 or any M-14 based weapon. I'm looking at getting some WC 846, the powder used in that round, to load a bunch of ammo with. I use the M1A gas gun, and I'm gonna top the charges with SMK 168's or 175's, Win WLP primers, LC new brass. Am I gonna batter the heck outta the receiver, or am I looking at a great deal on perfect powder?
Thanks for the help! I KNOW someone out there has done this before!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
just south of the middle of nowhere, Utah, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 19:13:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Bullpup,
I haven't tried the factory load but I have shot a lot of 155s out of both the VS and my custom gun and they both have the 1-12 twist and they really do like this round. It shot better at 400yds than the 175 Berger VLD did in my gun. Try it I am sure you will like it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 20:13:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

On tactics...

Has anyone been watching the news/press on Chechnya? Seems this band of 1200 or so rebels in Grozny have been able to hold off the best efforts of a significantly larger force for quite a while now. The press suggests that even Russian Special Forces are getting chewed up in the fortified streets... (yes, I know how good the press is at getting the facts straight)

I don't even pretend to understand the dynamics that have lead up to this confrontation. I'm not really asking for commentary on right or wrong here...the tactics being used is what I'm asking about

Can anyone comment authoritatively (or with a well thought out opinion)? The Chechen fighters are Muslim...does that suggest that they may have some Mujahaddine (spelled wrong, I'm sure) input or advisors on how to defend from Russian tactics? How much of a factor does the construction of the city (soviet cold war specs) have on the defensive aspects?

Is the RPG really that effective against armor that it prohibits the use of such in urban areas? What roles might snipers play and what techniques would be used to protect one's butt if the opponent has both arty and air support capable of saturating your hide with shrapnel. The rule is "speed is safety" in this situation, right?...how does that get applied to a man with a bolt gun?

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 20:18:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Hi everyone.
One quick question does anyone know of a reputable gun finishing company?
I am looking to have a rifle coated in a teflon woodland camouflage
pattern. Any info greatly appreciated.
Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 20:56:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.86.249.90)

Dennis/USMC Spud, we couldn't see the flare even a LITTLE BIT from the 200y line. I was on that relay! It was impossible. At 125y or so, we were told to get ready to fire 3 rounds in 40 seconds, when the targets appeared. We could just barely make them out with our bare eyes as they went up. Looking thru scopes, not a thing. No Way! 40 seconds later, the targets went down, and ZERO rounds were fire by the nine of us. Then everybody just started laughing.

Glad to hear that some guys got off some shots eventually.

Frank from Oregon, I respectfully suggest you contact Dee Turner, who reads the D.R. to get the lowdown on this fun match. You can reach him using dturner@jps.net.

Hello to all the guys out there from Sunday. Dennis D. (saw your post on the USP), Eric/Grasshopper, and Ed E. (I know you are out there!).

Next match is the first Sunday in Feb.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 22:00:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

Congrate to you sir this is the best web site I have ever run across
and I have been bouncing around on this here net for some time.I see what you are doing and I would like to thank you for trying to help you fellow shooters. See if it werent for snipers I wouldn't be here.So thank you and all of your brothers in arms.
Darrin Talley <bear_12@angelfire.com>
Tulsa, ok, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 22:07:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.252.163.136)

can anyone give me an idea of what kind of velocity to expect from a 6.5X55-142MK and a 28-30
Jimbo <jimbo@jimbosguns.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 01:12:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.37.93.64)

Yo fellers,

Be careful about listening to rumors re: the major gun companies. Remember the hoorah a couple of months ago about Glock and COlt not selling to handguns to civvies anymore and such. Bogus..

Speeking of rumors.. I guess we all learned a little lesson about paranoia with the Y2K deal. Wait!! Is that a black helicopter?

Semper Gumby.

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 02:31:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.145)

Gooch, I know that you can't believe all you read but this is where the Colt/HK news came from. Hope the address works right.

http://biz.yahoo/rf/991229/ch.html
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 02:58:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.112)

Here is the story.

Wednesday December 29, 3:50 am Eastern Time
Colt's to buy German small arms maker - WSJ
NEW YORK, Dec 29 (Reuters) - Colt's Manufacturing Co. agreed to acquire German small-arms manufacturer Heckler & Koch GmbH for slightly more than $100 million, or 98.7 million euros, the Wall Street Journal reported Wednesday.

The deal demonstrates Colt's continued shift away from the besieged civilian handgun industry, the newspaper said.

Colt's is controlled by a New York investment group headed by Donald Zilkha. Heckler & Koch is owned by a unit of British Aerospace PLC, now operating as BAE Systems.

Colt's plans to phase out much or all of Heckler & Koch's U.S. pistol sales, the Wall Street Journal said.

Colt's began exiting the handgun business last autumn, partly in response to a raft of lawsuits filed in 28 U.S. municipalities.

The combined company would be in a formidable position to compete for military rifle and grenade launcher contracts, John Rigas, a partner in the Zilkha investment firm, told the Wall Street Journal. He told the newspaper he expects the combined company to have revenue of about $300 million in 2000.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related News Categories: US Market News

Computer Challenged Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 03:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.112)

Dennis (USMCSPUD),

You could see the flare ... ?

Glad you had fun, see Ya next time, and thaks for the plug.

If anybody wants a brief description of the monthly HP Tactical Match at Sac Valley look in SC's Announcements & Calender of Events, or if you want to know more e-mail me.

Come shoot with us and have fun.

Dee

Dee T. <deeturner@jps.net>
Roseville, CA, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 03:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.119.27.12)

Dave Liwanag, mentioned US Army studies on pressure curves for M14
rifles , a few others also made note of keeping pressures down to
acceptable levels. Can anyone tell me where to find a informative
guide on keeping chamber pressure within acceptable limits , to save
my gas system and the rest of my M1A from a serious beating. Also
is Varget or H322 from Hodgdon relatively clean burning in a
M14/M1A ? And within acceptable Pressures?
Timothy A. Patrick <tpatrick@epix.net>
Halifax, PA, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 03:50:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.74.11.157)

Tim, check out Derrick Martin's article on M1A loads on the www.aauracyspeaks.com web site. Lots of different loads, and Derrick can answer by e-mail if he's in town (besides being an incredible National Match M1A and NM AR-15 gunsmith and super nice guy he shoots for the All-Guard Team).

I know the US Army Marksmanship Unit tested heavy M14 1,000 yard loads in the late-70's/early 80's. One of the results was the armorers drilling a very small gas-vent hole in the end of the gas cylinder plug to vent some gas when they loaded 190-grain Match Kings. The M21 I was issued at Sniper School in 1982 had that little vent hole. I know bunches of guys who use Varget, but I don't know about the H322.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 04:10:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Damn fat fingers!

www.accuracyspeaks.com
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 04:12:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Bolt,

Thanks for the "news" on the Colt deal with H&K. In a recent post I said that I hoped that Colt would survive, and change their minds about selling to us civilians. Maybe we're better off without them.

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 04:22:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.62)

Colt buying HK? I'm not sure what to believe but something is starting to smell kinda bad. Check this story out-- http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a38700a682f9a.htm
I went to Colt's website to look for a denial and what I found was carefully worded releases that provide a lot of good "between the lines" reading. They were not reassuring to me. Czech it out and decide fer yerselves.....
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
xx, MI, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 04:30:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.48)

Does anybody have any experience with or own a winchester M70 sharpshooter II. this is the model with the HS precision barrel and stock.. i read the reveiw on the site already just wanted to know if anybody had anthing to add. Thanks you can email me direct if you want i dont check this site every day.
Frank F <Frank0848@aol.com>
CO, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 05:01:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.214)

Dave: I've tried that accuracyspeaks site every day since you mentioned it last week. Sounds like a REAL source of great info. Every time I try it though, I get a message about their server not accepting logons, and to try back later. Now, I'm sure the heck not a computer wizard, I'm doing well to keep my heap headed down the information superhighway. But if you could let me in on how to get there, I'd sure be obliged! Or if you've got a e-mail address, I'll send a message off and see how we can get there (I'm assuming others can't get on too?).
Thanks man, you're a shooter's saint, and one of the few that have moved out of the "I owe you a cold one" range and into the "I owe you a case of cold ones" category!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Wandering around the middle of nowhere, Utah, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 05:33:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.142)

Man, I'm sorry guys. I just tried getting onto Derrick's site too, and nothing's happening (maybe his server had the Y2K thing?). The article I'm talking about was originally printed in Precision Shooting when the 175 Match King first came out, and everyone was scrambling to find the best powder for M1A/1,000 yards. Derrick and his partner Barret Tillman loaded up about a dozen different powders and shot it thru one of Derrick's M1A spaceguns (yes, you can trick out an M1A as well). I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think 4064 and RE-19 had the two amazingly small groups. Accuracy Speaks advertises in a lot of magazines, so you may give him a call (Phoenix area) and he may Xerox or e-mail you the story for a beer.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 05:46:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Hello all,

Here is a little tale of woe about my brand new Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR M3 Mil Dot: my 308M dial is made backwards!?! The MOA #'s read from right to left instead of left to right like all 3 other dials that came with it! When you put the 308M dial on you can only adjust your POI DOWN from your 100m zero! No real big deal, I was only going to use the MOA scale so I'll just use another dial and cover the meter markings, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how (or why) a reversed dial would even be manufactured. Kinda tweaks me a little bit, spending $700.00 and getting something like that. Has anybody else out there seen a reversed dial, or know why one would be produced? If so, enlighten me please!

Bullpup <blackstratguy@excite.com>
Rochester, NH, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 06:09:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.247)

Serri Lithi

Please recontact via email.
I have the die sets to send but have lost contact with you.

Regards
Darryl
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 06:19:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Bullpup...
The M3-LR's were first made so the dials turned "clockwise" to increase range, which is the way the MK4-M3's turn, but requires a "left hand thread" in the turret.
Last January (a year ago) Leupold changed the dials to turn in the "counterclockwise" direction to increase range, so that they were like just about all other scopes. But what that means is there are two kinds of dials in existance, and you probably got one of the old ones by mistake... call them up, and explain it, and they will send you a new one for free...

Tim...
The M14/M21 platform of weapons requires 12,000 to 14,000 psi "AT" the gas port to function reliably. More, and you beat the crap out of the receiver, less and you unreliable ejection, or rechamber the fired case (which doesn't fit anymore, and will need to be pounded out!!)

With 155 to 190 weight bullets, this limits the choices of powders. Powders that are too fast, will reach peak chamber pressures, but not have the required pressure at the end of the barrel. Powders that are too slow, will still have too much pressure at the end of the barrel, even though there is no sign of "pressure" on the cases, and the manuals say it is a safe load.

The result is that fast powders will start cratering primers, before you are up to speed, and velocities will be low. Slow powders will beat the crap out of your receiver, as the speed of the op rod is too high.

H322 is way too fast for the 14 receiver group... it's even too fast for bolt guns, except for light target loads... (but it is VERY clean).

Varget is ideal for the 14/21's, and is VERY clean to shoot (and clean up later).

4895 is ideal for the 155's, fairly good for the 168, and too fast for the 175 and 190's.

Ideal powders are 4064, Varget, AA2520, and others in that narrow burning range.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 11:35:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.91)

lito'
How the hell do you know all this stuff???(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 14:53:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Gooch; time for the conspiritist view on the Colt thing. Tis a black government plot to have their own personal arms company and let the others be sued out of business. Kind of like doing away with all the tobacco companies while importing Cuban Cigars for Politicians. Yes that's a black Chopper! Survival of the fittest here. If the Gov can get Colt making MP-40's and USP's they won't need the rest of the firearms industry and can do what they wish with it. This way they can control all handgun sales to LE and their agencies. The hell with competetion.. they can spend $20,000 on a USP it's not their money.
Which HK will become the new US rifle? Or will it be that new one they are talking about in the Rifleman last month?
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 15:25:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bullpup; I don't think I've heard of that problem but could it be that you put that dial on a a long range say 1000 yard zero and adjust down or does that make any sense at all?
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 15:29:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

B. Rogers-

Nope not possible, if you look at the .308 dial it is numbered in the opposite direction to the .223, .300Win and .30-06 dials! I'd say Pablito hit the nail on the head.
Bullpup <blackstratguy@excite.com>
Rochester, NH, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 15:40:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.136.174)

Any one used DDR bino's,

In particular,Zeiss Jena EDF 7x40's and DF 7x40's.

Cheer's Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 18:20:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.198)

Pat...
I read "Guns & Blammo!"

Just got the Lapua 6mm BR brass (1100 pcs)... my God, is it fine... necks concentricity mics to .0002 (Yep 1/5th thou!), and I'll only have to turn off .002 to fit the tight neck 40-XBBR. On the Rem cases, when I finished turning them, I had enuff turnings to make another set of cases :)) Right now Sinclair has a sale, and the stuff is cheaper than the factory Rem/Win brass... I'm going to load up (Pun intended...)

UnDude... it only takes one 40-XB to make you a believer... I've had the one I brought to Carlos so long, it's growing moss on the North side, and it still shoots 1/2" all day long.

'lito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 18:51:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.82)

Colt to buy HK, is it true?....

Here is a link to MSNBC's site.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/351295.asp

This seems to be true. Now the questions is what is going to happen to individual, such as us, who enjoy the sport of shooting and acquiring hand guns? And once again, as we all are aware, how is this going to impact our 2nd amendment right as an individual to own a firearm.

I realize that A), this is not a political bullitin board, B), that this site is about subjects relating to shooting and C), that we have hashed over this before but I fealt it worth mentioning once again.

I guess I have my panties in a bunch right now about this. I have been watching and watching. Now what I feared is coming to fruition. Sorry guys, I just need to let out some steam.

Darren...
Semper Fi and proud of it!!!
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 19:39:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.33)

On Colt...

Not to throw a wet blanket on the current "Colt" bashing,... if you feel you need to bash Colt, go ahead... make your life better!

But you should know some of the facts.

Colt is still selling the 1911's, and Single Actions to civilians!
But their decision on the other revolvers is based on the fact that the Detective Special, the Python and the others, weren't selling... and the civilian AR's weren't selling that well.

This is due to the fact that Connecticut is THE MOST EXPENSIVE STATE in the country to manufacture anything requiring skilled labor, and these products had competition from overseas, and other states, and there is no way Colt can cut costs.

Fact two!... Colt is the most sued arms company in the country... and the Attorney General of Connecticut would LOVE to put Colt out of business.

Ruger has their offices in CT, but ol' Billy makes his guns in other states where he doesn't have to deal with unions, and the highest business taxes in the country, and a state legislature that's just waiting for you to fall.

Colt's not stealin' your 2nd amendment rights... we're giving them away at the polls, and this kind of bashing doesn't help the situation.

'lito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 00:22:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.131)

Pablito:

I agree with you in regards to bashing. I am wondering if you read my post as that, bashing? It was not intended to be. I was bringing to the attention of the masses what is happening with Colt and H&K as others have done before me.

You can not help but wonder what is happening with Colt. This also would lead one to wonder that if Colt did acquire H&K what will happen next. In regard to Connecticut, they could move their facilities. It would be difficult but possible. But enough of this. I do not want to get into a debate or a heated arguement. This site is not -- in my opinion -- designed for that. I have pasted a quote that did concern me.

Here is a quote from December 29, 1999 off of MSNBC:

THAT IS BECAUSE AFTER Colt’s buys Germany’s Heckler & Koch GmbH, the American company intends to phase out much or all of Heckler & Koch’s modest pistol sales in the U.S.
Colt’s began eliminating most of its own handgun business in the fall, partly in response to a wave of lawsuits against handgun makers filed by 28 cities and counties across the country.

It is up to individuals to decide how to interpret this. And as for dealing with this, you are absolutely right about us and our voting power. That is why I joined the military during the Bush era. It was to insure the rights Americans their constitutional freedom.

Now I am going to get off my soap box here and fade into the darkness.

Darren...
If you have nothing good to say about someone then don't say a darn thing!
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 01:01:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.33)

Bullpup:
For good info on 155's, check out www.delphi.com/palma
Go to the message board. 1/12" will spin 155-190 nicely.
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 01:49:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.31)

Guys,
Just thought I would throw some loading stuff in to offset the Colt debate. But first :-) Yes, 'Lito is right (as usual) about Colt's stuff not selling well. Smart move on their part. My Python was great, but needed retiming about every 4 or 5 K rounds (of magnums). So I sold it. Smith & Wesson didn't have the trigger the python did, but my 681, with a trigger job, cost hundreds less than the python, has as good of a trigger (with no stacking!), and doesn't need retiming every few years. The same goes for everything else cut. I'm gonna mourn the passing of the D frames (if I didn't have mine, I would be compelled to get some), but life goes on. Kimber, Springfield, Ruger, S&W, Bushmaster, Eagle and others did in Colt as much as the union. Remember, they actually OWN it now. Truth to tell, I'm still kind of upset that Colt quit producing thier Target model Woodsman, and Ruger ran Hi-Standard out of business :-)
Now for the juicy part.
The following was sent to me by Dave the Great, and since I can't figure out how to do the sending thing, I'm EXERPTING from his letter (with permission)

NAVSEA OP 4335

4-10.3 CARTRIDGE, 7.62 MM NATO, MATCH, M118
4-10.3.1 Intended Use. The M118 Match cartridge is used with the M14 rifle. This cartridge is used for target practice and in the Navy Competitive Match programs.
4-10.3.2 Description. This 7.62mm cartridge is approximately 2.830 inches long and weighs 390 grains. The cartridge is loaded with approximately 42 grains of propellant composition (IMR-4895 or WC-846) and contains a 5.4 grain lead styphnate primer.
4-10.3.3 Ballistic Data. The ballistic data is as follows:
1. Velocity. The basic velocity will be 2550 fps at 78 feet from gun muzzle.
2. Pressure. The average chamber pressure will not exceed 50,000 psi. (I think this may be an error and should read c.u.p.?)
3. Accuracy. The average of the mean radii of all targets at the time of acceptance at 600 yards is not greater than 3.5 inches. NOTE: The listed charge weight may be varied to comply with ballistic requirements.

So there can be no more question, WC-846 is a proper powder for the M1A. After all, the guvmint wouldn't lie, right? And thanks to GTW90, for the great loading data.
I've got two great patron saints of riflery here, and for that I'm grateful!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
south southeast of nowhere, Utah, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 01:52:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.152)

Bravo,
Aw shucks,we all do our part if we can.Iam happy I could be of a little assistance.I even tried moly on the 173s but i couldnt tell a bit of difference.I decided to run with what I had.It was pure luck on my part that I duplicated the M118 load.Some M1As will shoot it.Some wont.It even manages to get 1 1/4 min out to 300m in my FAL.That is as far as I shot it.I never could get decent results out of the 175s in the M1A.So I just saved them for the PSS.The wife says bullets is bullets,lets just shoot.Out of the mouths of babes comes these pearls of wisdom.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 02:32:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.5.106)

Colt's owner contributes to the campaign of Charles Schumer, probably the most anti-gun guy in the country. Colt has been broke, claims to be broke, but finds $100 million to buy HK...in order to get military contracts that it had but couldn't meet...consumer handguns getting the ax. Probably just a coincidence.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 02:36:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

A little while ago I posted a question as to where to buy cordura nylon and military style hardware (zippers, buttons, etc..). For those of you that might be interested this is what I've found so far. cordura nylon $7 a yd at http://www.dollarfabric.com. hardware I'm still looking for other sources but http://www.para-gear.com has alot of hardware to choose from and looks like really heavy duty stuff, they also have nylon but a bit pricey. Later and Thx
Wolf <RockyRun@centurytel.net>
Hickville, WI, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 02:55:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.206.147.86)

According to my dealer catalogs, most of the Colt line is still available. I'm sure they will advertise everything until the last piece has been sold. Will let you know when the new catalogs come out. The "Industry" publications say that Colt is only dropping their non-profitable lines and they will still be selling to "CIVILIANS" Hope they're right.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 02:58:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.48)

Thanks for the quick answers and information. This site is a great source for someone getting into high power rifle shooting.
Thanks :) you guys rule!
elainerd <elainerd@excite.com>
Utah, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 03:23:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.190.10.114)

Does anyone have any experiance with the 7.62x54r dragunovs? I understand the limits a com-block,semi-auto sniper rifle could face but have any of you ever fired one? My buddy is considering picking up one and I wonder if it is worth the time and effort, not to mention money. Any info would be really helpfull. Thank You, John
John <cuzbone1@aol.com>
selma, nc, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 03:58:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.24)

A big thank you to Dave Liwanag , Bravo and Pablito for the info
on M14 powder and pressure limits for reloading . I will be paying
very close attention to my reloading data and also watching for all
telltale signs of excess pressure . Note: will also invest in a
shock buffer for reciever. Keep i'm in the X-ring guys .
Timothy A. Patrick <tpatrick@epix.net>
Halifax, PA, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 04:22:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.224.78.194)

Regarding Dragunov: An FFL dealer I know had one and wasn't impressed with it at all. He said it was way too expensive and didn't shoot as well as your basic Remington. I never shot one so the info is second hand.

Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 04:28:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.11.69)

Can't wait to get my H&Kolt AR-91!
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 04:37:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.38)

RE: Jim Mitchell
The Somalies did the same thing to the US Army in street fighting. My good friend was an Army Ranger and he said that a day hardly went by that someone didn't get ambushed. The Chechnyans are defending their homes that is a big incentive to win I'm sure. Plus the city was allready fortified from the recent civil conflicts. Not to mention the fact that the Chechnyan soldiers are probably more seasoned. Oh yea the weapons that the Chechnyans are using are probably all came from the Rusians at one time of the other so their technologies are probably pretty close to those of the russians. This is just my opinion. Maybe it will give you some food for thought. John
John <cuzbone1@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 04:41:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.24)

Will someone give me a precise definition of "Average mean radii"? Wasting my life in statistics classes and I'm stumped as hell.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 04:47:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.164)

Colt buys HK. USP becomes Bren Ten of the 90's. USP'w go through the roof. Bundeswehr to buy Ruger auto pistols in .38 super.
'lito, when was Colt using skilled labor?
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 05:04:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.200)

If anybody is wondering just how bad the new assault weapon bill is going to be for California, I just got this from Turner's Outdoorsman, a chain of outdoor stores in Southern California. As I read it, the attorney general has defined "conspicuously protruding pistol grip" to mean that if any part of the grip extends beyond a line parallel to the barrel through the end of the trigger, a semi-automatic magazine fed centerfire rifle is to be considered an assault weapon for registration purposes. effectively making all semi's assault weapons.

SB23, the new "Assault Weapons" bill, was signed in July of 1999 and was set to go into effect on January 1, 2000. To date, the California Department of Justice has yet to clearly define the class of weapons that will be banned.

The DOJ has recently published its preliminary guidelines for the enforcement of SB23. As these guidelines are written, it appears that any centerfire caliber, semi-automatic rifle, with a detachable magazine, will be classified as an "assault weapon". This new definition is clearly beyond the scope of the initially expected impact of SB23.

In order to protect our customers and our employees from potential criminal and legal jeopardy, Turner's Outdoorsman will suspend the sales of all centerfire caliber, semi-automatic, detachable magazine rifles effective January 1, 2000.

This suspension of sales will remain in effect until the DOJ establishes its final enforcement rules. All customers are urged to contact the DOJ directly with any questions regarding these enforcement guidelines.

Thank you for patronage and understanding regarding this situation.

For more information call the Department of Justice now at 916-227-3703.

Pat T. <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 05:04:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

I'm interested in putting together a long range package based on the Steyr SBS Pro Hunter rifle. I'd like to exchange mail with someone who owns one of these and is willing to share the experience.
Pat <pjmurphy@centurytel.net>
OR, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 05:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.206.180.146)

CDC...

"Average mean radii"? Wasting my life in statistics classes and I'm
stumped as hell."

Hey Guy... you shoulda' been takin' Geometery (but the girls in Stat-101 were better lookin', so you weren't wastin' your life).

"Average mean radii" is the average radius of the shots from the "mean center" of the group. It's used my the military to evaluate the quality of ammo, and/or firearms.

Everybody else uses the two outside shots for group size... you shoot 10 shots and the first 8 are in 1/2", the 9th is at 3 o'clock at 1" and the 10th is at 9 o'clock at 2" out... you get a 3" group... not the military... they figure the same group as .5" "Average mean radii".
It goes like this... the radius is half the diameter... so you find the center of all the shots, and measure out to each shot, add them up and divide by the number of shots to get the "average"... so in the example above, you have 8 shots, whose radius is 1/4" from the center, and one that is 1" and one that is 2"... add them up, and you get 5 inches. Divide by 10... and Voila, you get .5" "Average mean radii".
It makes poor ammo look much better that it is, because in the above example, a second batch of ammo that shot a perfect circle of 1" dia, would rate the same as the first group, which actually shot a 3" group.

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 11:49:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.120)

'lito,
The measurement it taken between the group's geometric mean and each individual bullet-hole? No allowance is made for horizontal vs vertical disbursion? They use 'average' as a measure of variability rather than 'bivariate standard deviation'?

If you have a real big budget and lot's of time, I guess its better than nothing.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 14:47:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

MATH AGAIN!!

aagGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...........

;-)

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 14:48:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.37)

Pete,
When you sight-in a rifle, or develop loads for it, you are performing an experiment and analyzing the resultant data. That's math. There's no other way. I didn't make these rules.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 14:55:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

CDC...
Yes... it goes back a long time (45-70 days!)

PeteR... Me too, Arrrrgggg

No Mas!

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 14:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.120)

Put em all in the same hole and you don't need math.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 15:42:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Are there any facts to be had on the AR-10T rifle? Has there ever been a military or other third party trial of this rifle? Was it even considered when the eval of the SR25 was done for the designated marksman concept?

Everything I've heard about this rifle has been bad, but none of it has been substantiated by "broad fact"...
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 16:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Bolt,

I don't so I do.

(off stage sounds the rolling of a distant timphany)

See you after semester.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 16:39:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

I bought a Tasco SS10X42M and got it last night. It's not on its wep yet but I am very impressed with the optics and overall quality. I read the reviews and was ready for the shortcomings; however, they were ALL fixed. The scope now has an integral sunshade so the Obj isn't in danger, and the elevation and windage clicks are definite and audible (almost too loud.) I am looking at a Badger mount. Does anyone have additional inpute on thier Maximized rings
Jeff K <rancidcoolaid@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 16:50:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.114.195)

All,

Happy New Year! It's been a while since I was on this site. My computer crashed and still has relapses from time to time. How about all that hype on Y2K? What a let down for the press and the commies.

I was looking through my inventory the other day and thought that I might start using my Grizzly .357 or the .45 mag as my hunting pistol for pigs. I usually will use my .44 mag but I want to see some versitility in my hunting handguns, while they are still legal.

I have been working with the Nosler J4 competition bullets in my .308 Win. and I still think Sierra has most of their competitors beat hands down. The J4's are supposed to be as good or better than the Sierra bullets but I have yet to discover that. Has anyone tried the Noslers and come to the same conclusion? I have tried Varget, IMR 4064, and I will try H-380 soon. They print OK but fliers are common and the so called load interchangability with Sierra is not there. They still shoot well under an inch at 100yds but the Sierra bullets can do magic. I like the Sierra 175gr HPBT on top of 43.0gr of Varget using a Federal GM210M primer. This has resulted in a group of five shots in .168" and other groups under .267" from the same lot of powder.
I am interested in trying the Hornady A-Max 168gr and their 178gr pills to see how they stack up to Sierra. Can any one share some load data on these or the Nosler slugs? Thanks.

For the gents wanting 8x57 loads.

150gr Sierra 45.0 +/- a bit to load tune of IMR-3031 @ 2600 f/s

175gr Sierra with 47.0gr IMR-4064 accurate!
175gr Sierra with 51.0gr of IMR-4895 at a blistering 2722 f/s

I hope this gets you started.
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 19:09:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.78)

Take the following with a grain of salt. I am just kicking back on a Friday afternoon ruminating about the human condition.

(and trying to avoid hard work)

I smugly enjoyed the lack of Y2K issues. I was one of the scoffers who more or less poopoo'd the whole thing. Being one of the many people who felt the Y2K bug was human beings, it was gratifying to see the end of this mess. I have heard so much BS from all corners that it was almost fun to sit back thinking about all the poor schmucks who bought into it and bunkered down waiting for the new revolution. I have had (reluctantly) many conversations where I had to sit back and quietly listen to otherwise intelligent people droning on about the impending doom. For all of you out there (none of OUR readers I am sure) who stocked up on MREs and bought new generators in anticipation of the impending fall of civilization and society, well, shame on you. C'mon people, we have lived with out computers since the beginning of time. We can do it again for a few weeks. Or months. Or YEARS. All they have done is make us lazy and detached from reality (ok, granted, that moon thing was pretty cool! hee hee). Were we really supposed to believe that had they all failed on 1 Jan that governments would fall and civilization would die? Say WHAT? Yet I heard many such comments. Thankfully, none here. This is why we appreciate the kooks staying off the site. God knows, we are all opinionated enough with out them tossing in their frantic two cents!

Who benefited from the Y2K scare? Seems to me that Y2K was about MAKING MONEY. Sure, there was a real risk of glitches, but one must look at the all the different industries that rose out of this fear. Computer services made a killing. People were so desperate for survival gear, guns, and food that companies who sold these goods often could not keep certain items in stock. I'd wager that 10 years worth of survival goods were sold in the last 9 months. Damn. I wish I had thought of it! ;-) I also wish I had stock in fuel driven electrical generator manufacturers!

So life goes on. 2000 is here and sadly the IRS's computers did not pass into a well deserved and long over due failure mode. Ah well. Guess we'll all have to vote for Malcolm Forbes if we want help on that front!

So, to all you survivors of the Y2K bug, welcome to the 21st century (it AIN'T the millennium folks, not till NEXT year)! I hope we do not screw it up as bad as the last one.

Scott

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 19:50:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

A UPS question if you don't mind, about sending powder. A guy posted some for sale on a shooting newsgroup, I sent him a money order, and he said that the UPS depot rejected his package, saying that hazmat items must be sent by a commercial customer, not a regular individual.

Does this sound like b.s. (meaning correct info)? Seems like if you pay the $13.00 surcharge, UPS should ship the damn package!

Heck, he did the honorable thing by telling them what was in it!!! How would they know otherwise?
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 21:11:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

To Scott,
"So, to all you survivors of the Y2K bug, welcome to the 21st century (it
AIN'T the millennium folks, not till NEXT year)! I hope we do not screw
it up as bad as the last one"

Shame on you for saying such a thing! Don't you know that if the world did not suck, we would all fly off the planet!

To CDC: on mean radius.
Do not be mislead by statements like "It makes poor ammo look much better that it is, because in the above
example, a second batch of ammo that shot a perfect circle of 1" dia,
would rate the same as the first group, which actually shot a 3" group."
This is nonsense. Ask yourself which sampling method is more valid. A method which only includes the worst 2 shots out of a 10 shot group or a method which includes all ten shots with each one having equal weight?
In the above example, if each group had a mean radius of .5 then what that is telling you that you even the group that shot the perfect 1 inch circle is no better than the other group and statisticlly speaking you will eventually throw a wild one. You just havent shot it yet.
Once you know what your mean average radius is, then you can predict all sorts of interesting things like hit probability, average group diameter, Six sigma standard deviations and so on. Very useful stuff!

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 21:52:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.44)

Wills,

UPS Customers must have a signed contract in order to ship hazardous materials through UPS.
Check it all out at: http://www.ups.com/using/services/accs/hazmat/hzm_home.html
I don’t know if a place like mailboxes etc can ship a HAZMAT package for you.

Now the Gov’ment gets involved
49 CFR 107
** Compliance with DOT regulations is a requirement for any person who offers a hazardous materials shipment. Non-compliance with the federal HMR could result in civil or even criminal penalties by the appropriate federal agencies. For more information about the DOT's Hazardous Materials Regulations, visit
http://www.hazmat.dot.gov.

These are the penalties if you try to sneak a package through.
Title 49 CFR Part 107 Subpart D, Appendix A
Guidelines for Civil Penalties
http://hazmat.dot.gov/regs/107subpart_d_app.htm

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 22:04:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

CDC...
More on mean radius.

If you're a purchasing agent for the military, and are buying 10,000,000 rounds of 7.62 M80 ammo for M-60's, then mean radius will be a reasonable requirement.

But if you contact any ammo maker like Fed, Rem, Win... etc, and ask them how they spec their ammo, they will tell you that it's group size... the two widest shots. Not Mean Radius!

If you contact any custom match rifle builder, and ask them how do they "guarantee" their work... they're not going to tell you "We guarantee a Mean Radius of...".
They will give you group size, which is the two widest shots.
If you're a shooter, whether a match, or military sniper, you need to know the "worst case" you can expect from the ammo you are using... that 2 inch off, 9 o'clock round might be the first one you shoot.
I doubt that Palma shooters rate their ammo in 4" Mean radius at 900 yds... bullshit!! They want ammo that will all fall into the "X" ring... with no "averaged" fliers.
The user needs to know what size target ALL the rounds will fall into, if he (she) does their part.

You'll have to pardon Steve's rudeness, and calling this "nonsense"... it's not... (I don't think he specs his match ammo in Mean Radius either!!)... If I say the sky is blue, he says it's pink.. he's just trying to get even for getting his itty bitty feelings hurt last year when he gave advise on a scope that was wrong, and got called on it, then he juggled the figures and kept trying to make himself look good, but kept getting in deeper until we all had our hip boots on. Several others called him on it, and finely, a NY State police officer really slapped him hard... and it turned out he didn't have, and hadn't even seen, the scope he was giving advice on, and didn't know how the BDC dials were marked.
Well, he figures it's my fault his ego got bruised, and has been brooding for about a year and a half, to the point that he sent a nasty e-mail around to some here on the roster, and folks were askin me what this was about...
Stevie... it's time to grow up, and get past your booboos. Your wounded feelings are showing.

CDC... Just consider this. How do you want to have your match ammo spec'ed... that's what counts.
Do you want to know worst case, or do you want to know some average, whether it is mean radius, or some other average... unless you need "Six sigma standard deviations and so on. Very useful stuff!"... when you're going to a match :)

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 23:19:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.81)

Scott; You remind me of the guy that the tornado missed! Was involved in some of that y2k stuff up to my ears in fact in Comm. equipment.
Ya'll don't got no ide what woulda happened had all that work not been done! Really kind of glad that Americans did buy all that survival stuff. You see that's the deal on Survival stuff you only buy it when you don't need it. If you need it it's too damn late to buy it. Kinda like extra Ammo. If you don't need it... it's dead weight. I'm sure a buncha guys cleaned up on it though. Not me by the way... it was a pain in the butt to me.
Pablito' what did you tell the guy on the reversed turret? I missed that I guess. You're usually right so I ain't arguing just wondered what you thought it was?
Old Dogge!
Methinks you got them Colt fellers figured out. The Gov. has them in their pocket. May not be their fault and they probably just as soon it wasn't but they got to play by the rules of their masters or they ain't gonna get to play at all.
Average mean ...what the hell? How did I get by all these years without knowin that?
Settle down there Pete. It's gonna be O.K. NURSE!!!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 00:49:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Pablito,
I don't recall every writing a nasty email to anyone in my life.
Once I sent a email to Mike M. explaning my position on our BDC difference of opinion, and as a courtesy to you, I mailed you a copy of my letter so that you could respond to him and state your position.
I am willing to post a copy of that letter for all to see. I am also willing to be persuaded that my opinion is wrong on the BDC issue and have said so in a previous post, providing that the argument is based on facts. I dont recall being slapped around on this site even once.
What is this all about? "If I say the sky is blue, he says it's pink.. he's just trying to get
even for getting his itty bitty feelings hurt last year when he gave
advise on a scope that was wrong, and got called on it, then he juggled
the figures and kept trying to make himself look good, but kept getting
in deeper until we all had our hip boots on."
Please point me to the time and date of this in the archives, and I will look it up and see if you are speaking the truth. Until then I will have to assume that you are playing cuttlefish again. You know what a cuttlefish is don't you? It is a small species of fish that has no means of defending itself when pursued except to throw out a black fluid, which makes the water so dark the enemy cannot see it, and thus escapes.
I ask the rest of you Gentlemen. Ain't Pablito playing cuttlefish?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 00:51:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.238)

Gentlemen,
I posted a remark earlier today about the Tasco SS10X42M. I got several responses back, most were helpful, but 2 were a bit condescending. I understand the sentiment and would like to make a short rebuttal.
Names mean very little. The best rifle I ever shot was made by a little old man who had a shop above his garage. He was old, deaf, and had brown teeth; but his rifles outshot my McMillan and my late TBA. To those who would not consider this scope because it's a Tasco, do a side-by-side and you will probably buy one too. For those who would never own a Tasco because of the name, you're probably happy to keep spending too much on too little.
By the way, I shot today with my new scope next to a guy who laughed when I0told him it was a Tasco (he had a Leupold M4 on a 300 Win Mag.) He enjoyed telling everyone who walked by I had a Tasco. Those who stayed and watched saw my $400 scope on a $1000 rifle shoot groups half the size of his $1000 scope and $2000 rifle.
So I ask you, what's in a name?
It's not about money or names, it's all about results.
Jeff K <rancidcoolaid@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 02:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.114.195)

'lito,
Bivariate population standard deviation. And whether Var(horizontal)=Var(vertical). From that you get everything.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 02:11:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Jeff K-

Amen brother, never judge a book by it's cover. Many times I've borrowed a Taurus or Rossi on the handgun range and outshot "high dollar piece packin'gun store commandos" that were giving the owners of these guns (usually relatively new shooters with a limited budget) a hard time. I don't care what name is stamped on the product, or where it was manufactured, if it can walk the walk I'll use it!

It seems to me that the ability to shoot is inversely proportionate to the amount of bulls**t dealt by the shooter. I know I am preaching to the converted here but gun owners have got to stick together and vote, vote, vote so we can at least suspend this trend of increased restriction on gun ownership.

Mike
Bullpup <blackstratguy@excite.com>
Rochester, NH, USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 02:39:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.219)

Guys, I noticed my name and had to respond. Leave me out of it. BDC's: What ever system that works for you is best! I like to dial 1/4minute clicks so I can match my ammo perfectly because I teach exact shot placment for police type work. If I was being shot at I would use a BDC for speed and just get lead on the target so I could get the heck out. You both have points and neither is right or wroung.

Tasco Super Sniper is a great scope! I would take it over a standard police VariX3 anyday for field work. But I know the MK4 and VariX3M1 and M3 Series to be better. Tasco has a great product that cost 3plus times less and the average guy couldn't tell the difference. I once used one in a PD Comp and they stopped laughing when I kicked some butt using it. As to rifles. Jerry Rice used to make rifle for a big name and they just put thier name on his work and took credit for it. I wont say who but thier rifle are no longer great shooters, like when Jerry built them.

The secret to this game is shooting and learning. Most guys would be better served to go to the range more than the loading bench.

Pablito, if that 40x of yours is south of anything I will eat my hat. I saw how it shot. I will still take a McBros, Norcal or this new rifle from George Gardner over the Remington Custom. Probably because I know what the bean counters did to the custom shop.

Mike/Undude
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 02:52:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.26)

come on guys,talking nasty about each other is a sure fire way to give us all a bad name.I am a newcomer here,only snooping around for a couple of months before I posted for the first time not long before xmas.I say have a nice long stalk,meet in the middle,and have a paintball fight.That is sure to start a s***storm for sure.But hey were all adults(hopefully)at least mentally.Everyone has an opinion,thats what were here for.NO use getting in a shouting match over something silly.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 04:46:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.2.60)

Now you guys know why I refer to this place as "the roaster"!

As for Tasco scopes, I think what people do (and I certainly can't blame anyone for this, it's what I do!) is stay away from a name brand that has given them problems, not a model that's given them problems. I've never bought the Hyundai GT Twin intercooled Turbo :-), might make an awesome street rod, but I've worked on a certain standard Hyundai and wouldn't back out of a race with my hot rod! Granted, one model might be crap (like the Tasco's found in the chain stores) and another model might be great (like the supersniper), but if the company name doesn't SCREAM quality, there will ALWAYS be detractors. A bad rep is next to impossible to get rid of. I got a real looooser of a Tasco personally (mid end, not the SS), if they hadn't taken it back, I would have thrown it away. The only point I'm making is that Tasco made their own bed, and if they hadn't put out bad scopes for so long, the SS would be tripple the cost. Let the ones willing to take the risk reap the reward, THEY deserve a cheap great scope! Kind of like the stock market, no? And isn't that what this place is about anyway? Hey, what do you think of scope X or rifle Y? Good buy or junk? That's the amazing thing about the roaster, SOMEONE will have tried whatever I'm thinking, so with a first hand honest review, no "reinvention of the wheel" is needed!

Re: cheap toys: I personally have been outshot by an old man with a ratty surplus rifle (there's a story here I won't go into), and outshot a guy with more $$ wrapped up in his rifle than I had in the car I drove to the range. I KNOW it's the man, not the toy. What is it that Clint Smith says? "Be an operator"?

Mike M: you mean I can't buy my score and actually have to SHOOT my rifle? :-)) I especially love the guys who EXPECT their rifles to perform because they "look tactical". Don't think you'll have to eat a bug on my accout, but keeping a vinegaroon in a jar just in case :-)
Bravo <Bravo@yahoo.com>
waiting for the new range in, Utah, USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 04:58:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.151)

Gents:

I've got a two-fold question here:

#1: For my .308 - Using Lapua brass, GM210M, and custom 185gr VLD hollowpoint rebated
boattail bullets........any good suggestions for loads? I've never loaded VLD's before. These will be
used for 600-1,000 yd shoots. Which leads to.......

#2: Berger recommends loading VLD's on the rifling. Is this common practice, or should I load to
my normal seating depth of 2.298 (.006 off the rifling)? I know the ogive profile is different, much
more of a steep angle from point to ogive, than say a #8 profile. Still, will loading the VLD on the
rifling be the right thing to do?

Thanks for the expertise. Cheers, Mike
Mike A. <moamike@ix.netcom.com>
Rainyass, Washington, USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 07:35:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.31.44.247)

Hello to all

I'm a Navy officer (but former grunt doc) stationed in Yokosuka, the land that guns forgot. I'll be going home in a few months and am looking at getting myself a long range- coming home present.

I've been lurking for a while and enjoyed the site and got a lot of great info so far. Keep it up. Reading the roster is almost like being back in a land with firearms! Thanks

Kevin McGowan <docmcgowan@surfline.ne.jp>
Yokosuka, No Guns Allowed, Japan - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 08:17:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 210.141.67.205)

To Jim:

In Tsetshenia Russian forces face a big problem because the opposing rebels are basically all trained in Russian/Siviet Army and á big amount of the soldiers have received special forces training (Spetsnaz, Airborne etc.) and/or have fought in Afganistan. Tsetshenians have a warrior culture and their faith gives a nice extra to it. -> Basically Russian army works as they worked in Soviet Union and the rebels know allready most of the tricks that might be put into use. Besides Russians are afraid of big losses, and therefore they are slow to advance.

Snipers: In Russia and Tsehtsenia snipers usually use Dragunows, some old PU M-91-30 bolt action rifles might be around, but the distances in the city tend to be so short, that open sighted rifles work quite well too.

RPGs: For some reason Russians use mostly APCs in Tsesthenia, and these things (BMP-1, BMP-2, BMP-3, BTR-60, BTR-80 and others) can all be destroyed with one or two good hits from a LAW or RPG. Main battle tanks like T72, T-80 or T-90 with reactive armour do not mind RPG´s but for some reason Russian have not used MBT:s in the city. They probably are too unwieldy inside the city.

Basically Russians are trying to keep the noise down and do some kind of "policing mission" whereas the opposing forces are fighting an all-out war with everything they have got against the Russians.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 13:34:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.229.255.17)

So, who has a good deal on this sooper-dooper Tasco 10x?

'lito and Steve: We love you. Play nice.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 17:06:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Tony, welcome to the roster. This ain't nothin'. Check the archives for Key Word Partisan (sic) This is friendly so far.

jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or., USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 19:08:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.207)

I seemed to have opened the preverbial "can o' worms" on this Tasco scope thing. Please allow me to sum up my feelings and I will lay the issue to rest.
I see a growing problem in shooting these days: too many collectors and not enough users. The guns stores are packed but the ranges are empty.
I originally planned on the Leupold VariX3 LR M3 (at about $700) but when I compared it to the Tasco, I didn't see a $300 difference (maybe not even a $10 difference; the Ultra is a different matter) I'll be very honest, I am not a perfect marksman; therefore, I bought the Tasco becuase the hundreds I saved can buy more ammo and cleaning supplies. I got the scope, not to revel in the name, but to shoot small things from far away, and the Tasco does that well.
Those who own Leupold Ultras and M4s, you have great scopes! I can afford the M4 but then I couldn't afford to shoot it as much.
When I teach handgun shooting, my first lesson is ALWAYS with a .22LR piece of crap. Teach them to shoot right and build confidence, then give them the racegun. My advice to all but the most seasoned shooter is buy the scope(and gun) that does the job and spend the leftovers at the range. Ammo is ALWAYS the best buy!
Jeff K <rancidcoolaid@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 19:12:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.114.195)

Any one have experience with using an ACOG set up with an ITT 6015 pocketscope behind it?
I like the Aimpoint/ITT setup but may switch over for the higher power of the ACOG if it does work well...
Thanks
Mictac <Mictac@AOL.com/>
USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 19:19:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.47)

Using Federal 168-grain HPBT Match .308 ammo, I know the MOA come-up from 200 to 300 is about 3 minutes, and from 300 to 600 it is about 12 minutes. I am looking for similar data for the Federal 69-grain HPBT Match .223 ammo. Anyone who uses Federal 69-grain HPBT Match regularly in competition, please e-mail me directly at tmelick@yahoo.com with your MOA come-ups from 200 to 300, and from 300 to 600. Also, please include your barrel length and your muzzle velocity if you've ever chronographed it. I derived some data from JBM's Online Ballistic Calculator, and I want to see how closely it correlates before I hit the range next weekend. Thanks.

B. Melick <tmelick@yahoo.com>
Dallas, TX, USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 21:35:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.165.172.145)

CDC;
That SS10x42 and SS10x42M(side focus) are available from SWFA in Desoto,Tx for $299 and $399 respectively and regardless of how they compare with "Premium" brands they are excellent value and damn good optics.If it fits your budget buy it.See "Hot Links" for link to SWFA inc.

Two years from now that SS10x42 will be a pre-ban sniper scope and will sell for $1250. :)
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, January 08, 2000 at 23:47:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.73)

I have been reading the hot tips page and think that I'd like to keep up with what is going on. I and my partner are gearing up for Storm Mountain SS1 in September.
David M. Gann <dmgann@usit.net>
Savannah, Tennessee, USA - Sunday, January 09, 2000 at 00:47:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.241.201.198)

Hi everybody!

Could someone give me the load data for the current US Military 7.62 x 51mm match round (M852, I think) utilizing the 168 gr. Sierra BTHP?
Also, is there anywhere on the 'net where one can find trajectory
tables for this and similiar rounds (extending to maximum effective range)? Thanks in advance!
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, January 09, 2000 at 02:39:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.35)

Hi everybody!

Range Report: Win Supreme Competition .308

Its a 168gr Nosler HPBT, apparentaly WInchesters competition for Fed GM. Part number is S308J

Pro: It shot good in my rifle (Rem 700, 24" Shilen #7, 1-10, match chamber GO+1)Equal to Federal GM which runs .5-.6 MOA with me behind the trigger. No chrono data on it.

Con: Cases oversize! Could barely close the bolt on the stuff. I did cut my chamber to minimum, but it will close easy on a GO gauge and just a tad bit of resistance on a GO + .001. Totaly unacceptable for a match round. I wonder if a semi auto with a match chamber would even go into battery. Also, packaging is poor. Cartrages are sitting loose, bullet down, in a styrefoam block. There is a half inch of empty space inside the box tht the rounds rattle back and forth in, smashing the tips of the bullets through the bottom of the styrofoam.

Last words: Shoots good, if it will fit in your gun! Poor packaging would worry me about getting damaged goods, especialy if it was ever shipped UPS or similar, you know how well they treat heavy packages!
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
kommi, fornia, USA - Sunday, January 09, 2000 at 04:07:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.193)

I've enjoyed the Tasco thread. I'll just say this-- sometimes it's a real hard call between cutting a fine figure at the range with your super-decked out, best-of-everything rifle (pistol, shotgun,) and gear, and looking like a novice but actually being able to shoot! I am also of the mind that money spent on ammo is the money best spent-- hence my never-ending search for cheap milsurp .308 that will shoot near MOA. For learning the ins and outs of ranging and wind doping, I'm thinking that 3,000 rounds downrange of 2 MOA ammo are more instructive than 500 rounds of .5 MOA ammo. I'm tipping my hat to Tasco-man for having the approach that it's more important to shoot good than to look good... I know how aggravating it can be to have some gun-store guru around who knows all about everything because he reads the magazines, and this guy has a following of rank beginners convinced that he's a real pro, and that this other guy (me/you) doesn't know squat, well how could he, look at what he's using, have you ever seen that on the cover of a magazine? I hate it when that happens! I have a Leupold on my .308 boltgun, but my AR15 for varmints (.17/.223 cal) has a Tasco 6-16X on it and it works just dandy.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
XX, MI, USA - Sunday, January 09, 2000 at 07:11:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.11)

One comment on the Tasco scope.

You get what you pay for. Seen Tascos lose zero's where Leupolds held them. Besides, buy North American.

Have a friend who builds guns in Canada and he tore a Tasco SS apart. Said the innerds had metal shavings and looked like shit.

I know its hard to pass up a scope for 400 when the Leupolds are around 700+. Kind of like the old perpetual Savage v Remington argument.

I guess you could always but two Tascos and have one on standby when the other one shits the bed.

I think I would rather go with a Vari-X III 3x9 tactical if I couldn't afford a M3LR or Mark IV type. Heard good things about the old Bushell Tactical if you can still find one of those.

M852 (168 Sierra BTHP @2600fps)
Drop @ yds Drop @ m
100 N/A N/A
200 2.0 2.5
300 3.0 3.0
400 3.5 4.0
500 3.5 4.5
600 4.0 5.0
700 4.5 5.5
800 5.5 6.5
900 6.0 7.5
1000 7.0 8.5

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 02:10:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)

Hey Gooch.... how 'bout someone who puts a Leupold 3.5-10x40 Tactical on top of that there Savage 110FLP??? My scope cost more than the rifle did. It'll shoot better than I can keep up with, too.....

:-)

L8R,
-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 02:45:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.205.238.119)

Well since we are on the scope thing...

Bucking the trend, my PSS P-DM or whatever it's called these days sports a Burris Black Diamond 3-12 x 50. No mil-dots at this time, but hey for $90 I can have them installed and I'm shooting known distances so it doesn't matter too much right now.

Well, I have about 100 rounds through the gun/scope combo, I am very satisfied with the Burris. I hate not having a Leo or Sworovski on top, but if it works and works well use it in my opinion. Come-ups are repeatable, and moving the wind/elev settings around the scope it comes back to a dead zero.

If it doesn't handle field abuse I'll post it here as I plan to rough it up a bit next week and see how it does. If it goes south, I'll put it on my AR for a varmit scope, and buy a Leo. If not, it'll sit on my 700 until something better comes along.

Anyone else have any info on these scopes?
Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 02:57:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.105.34)

Gooch,
You have no idea how helpful you have been to me. I added up your comeups for the 168 @ 2600 fps. and I came up with 39 clicks from a 100 yard zero to a 1000 yard zero. Since the value of the 308 M dial on the Leupold M3LR gives 39 comeups to get from 100 meters to 900 meters, and since 900 meters is pretty close to 1000 yards then could it be possible that the 308 M dial is not really for the the 175 gr. bullet at 2765 fps as someone has mentioned previously on this web site? If there is something wrong with my reasoning on this topic feel free to correct me. Also, could I trouble you for the comeups for the the .308 bullet at 2681 fps. Again you have been most helpful and I thank you!
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 03:24:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.145.148)

Nato @ britenet,
My 3.5X10LRM3 has 57 total inches of Elevation (on the knob)left once I zero'd my scope w/ about 5 or 6 clicks left for down Elevation.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying ,but if not, it sounds as if you may have to remove the El. knob and zero @ 100 with no more than 9 or 10 clicks left "Down" El. Then replace the knob at zero. (Mine sets back to -1, but that's ok.).
My load is pushing a 175MK @ 2621fps (10 rnd avg) and the comeups for 900 yds are 34 in. This is from an M1A. Twist1/11. This was shot for proof last Sunday and is "for real".
Once you remove the knob you'll understand why you can't get the full
60 inches dialed in on the knob. Leupold stakes a ball-bearing in the cap to contact a stop on the whatchamacallit underneath.
Some of this I learned from one of the "Gurus" in the archives under Leupold scopes (or something related). Damned good info.
Hope I understood you properly...
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
Merced, Kalifornicateya, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 04:01:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.47)

hey all, i'm looking for information on tactical medical programs...i'm a florida paramedic with sniper/tactical interests..any info would help...
scott <toolman405@aol.com>
USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 04:50:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.203)

Okay Rosterfarians,
I trust we all survived the passing of Y2K.

I have just started to play with my supply of VARGET, and "SURPRISE SURPRISE" I am getting plus/minus a half grain from my Hornady measure. What measure will drop consistent charges with this stuff? I DO NOT want to have to drop and trickle 4000+ rounds of this stuff for the up coming highpower and Long range seasson. I may do it for my 600 and 1000 yard stuff, but for 200 & 300 NO F****** Way!

All experiences greatly appreciated.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
south-wet , Pa, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 05:01:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.161)

Dennis,
I hope not to offend you, but after re-reading my last post very carefully, I could not find a hint of asking for any instructions on how to set the dial on this scope. The first part of the post I was comparing the .308 168 gr. @ 2600 fps M leupold dial with Gooch's data.
And the second part I was asking him for the data for the 175 grain load at 2681 fps. I left out the (175) grain part in the first post and I guess that could be a source of some confusion. If you have that
data, I would apprecite it. Yards or meters, it makes no differece to me. Thanks.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 05:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.126)

WHAT IS THE CONSENSUS OF REMINGTON BORE CLEANER? IS IT A) A GOOD ABRASIVE BORE CLEANER, OR B) A GOOD WAY TO RUIN A RIFLE BORE. THE OPINIONS OF MY FRIEND VARY. ADDITIONALLY, CAN ANYONE RECOMMEND A REPUTABLE GUN STORE IN THE RENO, NEVADA AREA? THANKS
P <gmanklecko@AOL.COM>
USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 06:15:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.193)

Steve,
Me offended? No way.
The more I thought about your post while putting the Bambinas to bed the more I realized that I didn't understand what you were saying. Too much vino w/ dinner I guess. Sorry. I jumped back on to apoligize and you were already here. Guess I get too excited to share the stuff I'm learning (and along w/ the post-dinner "fuzzies" from the wine), I jump too quick.
Anyway, I don't know if you can use this info, but what I have for a 175 MK at 2621 (avg 10 rnds) is;
200 yds-3moa
500 yds-12moa
800 yds-27moa
900 yds-34moa
These are the only distances that this load has been verified at so far. Amazingly it was the same as forecast with my Sierra program.
Those are total from zero.
For the scope wars: Time will tell, but so far my 3.5x10LRM3
is a wonderful piece of machinery. (Even if the crosshairs are not square with the adjustment housing-Big Deal). Yeah, I know big money should equate to perfection but the damned thing is, EVERYTHING has a flaw. So far it's only a minor one. As I say, time will tell. At least I have a Tasco 10X42 to replace it if it goes Tango Uniform! HA!
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, kalisocialistfornia, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 06:36:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.179)

I'm in the process of breathing life back into a Japanese Type 99 Sniper in 7.7mm and could use a little aid. This weapon has been a true labor of love and is just about complete, all that is missing is an appropriate scope to crown her with. I'm looking for either an original scope and ring mount compatible with the rifles QD arrangment on the receivers left side, or someone capable of manufacturing an authentic reproduction of the mount or scope. My interest in this rifle is solely the preservation of a piece of WWII history for the future that otherwise would end up in a scrap pile somewhere. If you know where I can find one of these pieces or are capable of manufacturing reproductions contact me. Some one has to preserve the history of WWII and I beleive that includes both sides of the war so please help if you can. I apologize ahead of time if this was the wrong place to post this.
J. Baker <catchdatrout@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 07:01:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.8.69)

Gentlemen-
One more try at stirring some interest in discussing the +/- of building a long range rifle based on the Steyr SBS ProHunter. I like what I see so far, but before shelling out the dough I'd like to know if any of y'all own one of these critters. Any comments would be appreciated. The scope choice I think I'll refrain from asking any questions about :) Weigh in fellas............
Pat <pjmurphy@centurytel.net>
Central, OR, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 08:11:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.206.180.179)

Okay, I'll throw the 175 chart in here also. These charts are also in the TRGT databook available through www.trgt.com.

On these charts remember that they are only starting points as are BDC turrets. The figures used in these tables and the come ups in BDC turrets are gotten from either computer programs or firing tests on a certain rifle or groups of rifles on a given day in a given set of conditions (temp, barometric pressure, etc).

Table for M118LR (175gr Sierra BTHP at ~ 2600 fps)
From Naval Surface Warfare Lab tests and Ballistics Explorer Program

Drop @ yds Drop @ m
100 N/A N/A
200 2.0 2.5
300 2.5 3.0
400 3.0 3.5
500 4.0 4.0
600 4.0 4.5
700 4.0 5.0
800 4.5 5.5
900 5.0 6.0
1000 6.0 7.0

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 13:28:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.182)

Steve--
I've found that my Redding micrometer type 3BR powder measure throws Varget to about +/- .2 grain. That's about the best you can expect from a factory measure throwing extruded powder. If you check around, you can usually get one for $90-95.00. I usually set up my charge, verify with an RCBS electronic scale, then check it every 10 rounds or so. You can also get the upgrade kit(different bottles,etc.)from Sinclair Int'l. Thats my $.02...
OUT HERE
Jamison <Longshot1000@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 14:35:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.229.193.6)

There is talk of a sniper competition that includes a parachute jump, along with Land Nav, Target Detection, and several stages of different types of shooting, being put together here in Oklahoma. Is there anyone out there that would be interested in participating in the parachute jump? Email me with your comments on this idea..Thanks
Bobby <bobbywhit@hotmail.com>
Oklahoma, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 15:51:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.58.0.246)

Tasco SS10X42M...

This scope was created at the request of the Army. The Army at one time was not going to renew their contract with the Leupold. They sent out a request and Tasco was one of the companies that responded.

I owned one, and as I said to J, it is a good scope. There was an article in TS about a year and a half ago. It was reviewed by an active Army personal. Any of you guys who keeps their TS can search for it or if you want the exact magazine date E-Mail me for the request an I will get it to you.

As for what Gooch said, I believe him when he mentioned, "Have a friend who builds guns in Canada and he tore a Tasco SS apart. Said the innerds had metal shavings and looked like shit." I had something appear on my lens after a few months of shooting it. I sent it back but the scope that was returned to me was not mine. It was a refurbished scope that someone else turned in for repair. Sold it an now I am a proud owner of a Mrk4 M1 scope. Don't get me wrong, the scope I got back was good regardless. I just wanted USMC mil dots and not the US Army version.

On the topic of having expensive toys to shoot:

I agree with those who say that it is the shooter and not their instrument of fun that determines how well one shoots. I have a Remington PSS DM in .308 with a Mk4 M1 scope and MWG base and ring mounts. There are only two things that I have done with this rifle. One was preformed by my gun smith; a trigger job. The second, I made my barrel truly free floating. I took off my receiver and sanded down the stock further to create more space between the barrel and the stock. I hope I explained this part correctly.

I have out shoot people with higher end rifles at my local range in Sunnyvale. This range is only a 100 yard range. I truly believe it is the shooter. J, has the right idea about getting your basics down and having it engraved in your mind.

Darren...
Semper Fi

Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 16:56:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.34)

Responding to Scott..

CONTOMS (Counter Narcotics Tactical Medic School)

http://www.usuhs.mil/ccr/ccr.html

I have heard that the best place to take this course is at FLETC (the fed law enforcement training center) somewhere in Georgia.

Jim MItchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 17:00:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Concerning the Tasco 10X: I purchased one and mounted it on a Savage 110FP. Optically, i am satisfied. The feel of the clicks were dissapointing. They were smooth and almost none existent. The big fix was found by accident during a livid moment wondering if I had been screwed: I repeatedly ran the knobs from one end of travel to the other. The clicks feel like they should. I wonder if they have excessive lubricant on the adjustment mechanism's, or if some parts needed breaking in? I am also diisapointed in the round dots. I was expecting the oval shaped type. Also, I'm trying to get used to the 30mm tube. I chose this scope due to having my quiver full of young ones. To do it over my advice is to save the dough for an American made scope, Lepould preferably, even if it's a 1 inch tube. Question: Where can I find good info on the round dot(Army) retiles?
Paul Lomske <lomske@hotmail.com>
SW Ohio, Ohio, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 18:45:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.187.108.30)

Just picked up an M1 Garand from an individual in CA. Anyone out there have any info or know where I can get some info on scopes / mounts for this rifle?

Thanks
Steve
Steve <starksspear@plateautel.net>
NM, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 20:01:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.224.150.254)

Shooters:

Does anyone out there know where I can contact the manufacturers of the U.A.R.S. stock? Gunsite does not distribute them anymore and neither does Brownell's.

Thanks --
Mitch <malexander@lg.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 22:06:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.35.1)

Pat

I gave the SBS a look for building a sniper rifle. The only one that I could come up with was the short barreled version and I was not interested in that. To short of range for me. The deciding factor for me was the fact that I do not know of anyone that could work on one. So I decided to stay with something I know and bought a Winchester. It was cheaper and is a real tack driver. I do like the looks of the SBS though and from what test reports I read, it should shoot accurate enough for sniper work.
C. R. Stoddard <stoddard@poncacity.net>
P.C., Oklahoma, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 22:09:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.76.243.81)

Mitch

About the UARS stock. I attempted to contact the company and got hold of someone with Gunsite. He told me that when Gunsite was sold, the new owners did not purchase IDEA Inc. which is the company that makes the UARS stock. He said that the company moved off site and does not know when they are going to start producing the stocks. He gave me an e-mail address for them and I sent them a note, but they never responded. Here is the e-mail address. Maybe you will have more luck. info@uars.com
C.R. Stoddard <stoddard@poncacity.net>
P.C., Oklahoma, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 22:22:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.76.243.81)

Light Weight Commercial Ghillie Outfit:

Has anyone tried using the ULTIMATE 3-D™ Woodland Camo Ghillie Outfit from Brigade Quartermaster? This is not the D2 Predator. The Ultimate 3-D is actually a trouser and blouse that you button over your garment. This uses the same material that the D2 Predator uses too. I I would like some feed back or your thoughts on this suit.

I realize that this is not a traditional ghillie outfit but those who want the camoflouge benefits but don't plan to do alot of crawling, I think this is a great outfit. Saw it in a gun magazine and believe it or not the author blended right into the back ground.

Darren...
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 22:32:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.33)

About the UARS, the company that makes them is on the web and the specific site for the stock is www.uars.com. (kinda tricky to remember, I know) I have heard one report that the stock is not as great as all the reports must say. This guy put in a Rem 700 but couldn't "fit into" the stock very well. He ended up buying a McBros.
Others have siad its great. Gambling on these things does sometimes pay off.

Jeff K <rancidcoolaid@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 23:26:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.114.195)

Darren...

I had a suit just like that (different maker) at Carlos last October.
You'll get a lot of ribbing, (I did) about wearing "Guchi-flage"...

...that's the down side, but the up side is that it's about 2 or 3 pounds, (instead of 20 or 30), very comfortable, and "The Gooch man" never busted me.
I always got off both shots, and guys in "Wookie" suits were getting busted left and right, never getting off a shot.

Get a green one, or die it light green with "Rit dye"... I wound up painting it with car spraw paint, and it stank like an autobody shop... but so did everybodie elses. Wal-Mart was out of green spray paint by the end of the match.

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 10, 2000 at 23:46:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.19)

On scopes, if you live long enough you see everything.

Buying two Tasco's in case one shits the bed? Probably not a bad idea, on any scope. Leupold scope took a dump a year or so ago, after a long go round got it back...after about 200 rounds through it, same problem. So, sometimes you get what you pay for, other times you paid too much, at any price. When an expensive scope goes haywire in the field, how much is it worth?

I have a Tasco 10x and it has been a very good scope for varmint hunting, which is all I really need it for anyway. If you have one, and like it, good for you. I don't have one of those high dollar sniper rifles, so I probably don't deserve a better sniper scope.

Bruce

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 02:11:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

To all,

From the commercially available .223 ammo on the market, which bullet types are the best for hunting and shoot half way decent. I have farmers here in Texas wanting me to help eradicate their local wild hog populations. The only problem is they frown on the use of .308’s. They don’t want exit wounds (lots of cattle in the area). Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 02:19:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.57)

Jeff in Texas;
You should think twice before attempting to down a feral/wild hog with ANY small caliber round.Here in East Texas the feral hogs quite commonly run 250lbs+.They are very durable critters and will absorb incredible amounts of punishment and keep on coming.A well placed .308 180gr Power point or silver tip will generaly get the job done.I don't shoot well enough or run fast enough to shoot one with any less.There used to be a guy here in Longview that guided hog hunts with dogs.The dogs would hem the hog up and then he (or his customer)would make the kill with a KNIFE.MUY LOCO!
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 02:46:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.153)

Scott Hannah, I can't seem to get the pics to you. Even a "hey what's wrong with your Email" will bounce back. Please advise.

Feral pigs-- I'da guessed a .223 SP would be sufficient... folks always talking about .17 for coyotes... but Bruce, you no doubt are a lot more tuned-up on pigs than I. The only wild boar I ever took was with my trusty bowling pin gun (.45 ACP). I'll admit he didn't go easily. I gave him a quick three (240 JHP's) and he was sidelined but still complaining. Two more shut him up though. The guide was all nervous because I insisted on getting up close-- not that I couldn't hit him, but dang, when we saw him he was laying with his back to me, half under a log. Wasn't going to end my hunt that way. Approached him from behind until at about 15' the stupid guide saying "Stop! Don't get so close!" finally woke the pig up! Once he started moving I felt it was no longer unsportsmanlike to drill him.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
XX, MI, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 03:06:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.155)

Jeff,
As bgen said, a .223 ain't enough. The "Local Boys" in Hawaii would laugh at you if you even breathed ".223". Those guys grow up hunting them w/ dogs and knives. I had the priviledge to hunt w/ 'em many times. BTW if they have a chance and they have a large-bore firearm, they shoot 'em.
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
Merced, kalifornicateya, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 03:08:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.39)

Jeff in Texas, I don't believe you will find a better commercial load than Hornady's Custom 60gr. Spire Point load for the .223. It's very accurate and does the job very well on ferals if you pop them just under the ear. I did what you are asking about last year with my accurized Colt. One was just past 100 yds. and two at around 200 yds. Shot them all from the prone position so I was real steady. The .223 will work, you just have to hit them right.
dan <danr@acnet.net>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 03:11:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.33.151)

the best thing for feral hogs Ive seen is a .44mag vaquero,if youre in the brush.dont know about the open areas,in tennessee a 44 from 25 yds does the trick.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 03:27:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.255.57)

Current Data for the M118-LR round... (all you never wanted to know about the M118-LR round, but were afraid to ask).
Fresh from Lake City Arsenal (10Jan00 - 10:30 eastern time)...

Test barrel length -22" (M14 length)
Velocity at 78 feet, (the standard test distance for the military), is 2580...

Gas port pressure (M14-M21-M25) 12,500 psi (copper units)

Average chamber pressure (copper) 52,000... reject pressure (average) 57,500, peak 62,000.

Accuracy requirements... 1000 yards 10 round group size (widest two shots, not mean radius) must not exceed horizontal dispersion of 10.3" (0.98 moa), or vertical dispersion of 14.0" (1.33 moa), or it is scrapped.

The velocity at 78 feet, translates to a muzzle velocity of 2630, for a 22" barrel, and 2680 for a 24" barrel.

On Nov 01, '99, The Gooch also reported "...I've got the NSWC tests on the stuff and according to doppler tests at 25 deg F, 75% humidity, at 600 feet, the muzzle velocity out of a given M40A1 was 2622 for M852, 2630 for M118 and 2681 for M118LR."
The M40's have a 24" barrel.

And, as I recall, "Sinister Dave" also gave the same 2680 from a source that he has.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 03:28:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.132)

To all who responded to my .223 for pigs, your points, pros and cons are very much appreicated. I would prefer my .308, but all of the farmers like the little .22-250's and .223's and such. Well, I'm going to try my hat at his game anyway. I figure a well placed shot below the ear ought to do the job nicely. If not, I'll probable wear my old tree climbing hooks (from my former telephone technician days), one hell of a heavy pair of leather gloves (for after the shot and those mesquite trees) and bring my pistol a long for those straight down shots.
Thanks to all
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 03:43:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.168)

NEED HELP WITH BASE AND RING SELECTION

Hi from a Newbie!

First, thanks to all who have contributed so much to Sniper Country. I've learned a lot on this site recently as I was preparing to choose my new weapon system.

Since budget is a STRONG limiting factor in my case,and since this is my first foray into shooting beyond 200 yards, I've opted for what seem to be quality products at affordable prices. Hence I've gone for the Savage 10FP in .308 and the Tasco SS10X42.

At the moment I've having a heck of a time finding the appropriate rings and bases. A friend suggested the Leupold Quick-Release system with a one-piece base, but Leupold only makes the two-piece bases for the 10FP (per phone discussion w/Leupold). Will the two-piece bases pose undue problems in accurate mounting? How about shimming, considering I don't foresee being able to go beyond 600 yards due to range limitations? Any alternate bases and rings you could suggest?

Secondly, which height of ring? I'm assuming high for this scope, but we all know what happens when we "assume"!

Thanks in advance for your assistance,

Mark

Mark <madriver@bellsouth.net>
Memphis, TN, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 03:54:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.194.177)

Mark,
Cheapest good rings I know of are looie dual-dovetails. Got some on my .220. They work fine.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 13:30:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Forgive me if this subject has recently been addressed, but I haven't checked the roster for a while. Me dealer wants to work out a trade with me and he is offering a NIB Blaser 93R tactical rifle in .308. I know nothing of these rifles, except from what I've read and handled the hunting model in his shop. They look well built and seem like a sound design. Does anyone know how they shoot? I am familiar with Rem 700's and handloading sub-moa ammo for them so I'm not worried about that. I just can't decide whether I should sink $2K into this rifle based on looks/feel. I am not going to use it for anything but range work on steel gongs mostly. I know for $2k I could have a custom Rem built that would probably shoot better, but my dealer doesn't have that on his shelf, and I am trading a high ticket item in on this.
Thanks for any help
Larry <ldup@voicenet.com>
S.E., PA, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 13:37:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.86.86)

Called the Winchester custom shop about the sharpshooter II. If you don't like the H-S precision stock they will drop in the Laredo LR for you . I forgot to ask if they cut the price from $1994 with the Laredo.
Russ Egan <drnra@aol.com>
williamsburg , va., USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 14:48:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.189)

My .300 Winchester Magnum chambered Remington 700 has done fine by me for over 12 years of 500+ yards shooting. I have, over the years, noticed that my rifle has maintained receiver/action integrity even after some rather wicked "Home brew" loads.

I have noticed that my addition of a Sako type extractor, Shilen contour 5.5 barrel, Zero laminated walnut tactical stock, and angled scope bases has ever increased my abilites and accuracy. Perhaps the combination of practice, precision parts, better powders, and confidence has made the difference.

I would also like to add that anything that you can do to better yourself makes you a better shooter (ie: good diet, no smoking, no chewing tobacco ( hard for me to say since my heritage is tobacco farmers), no late nights making a fool of yourself, and most of all...the expansion of your mental acuity by study. Study is proven to be the best temperer of man, it provides you with kowledge gained over the expanse of time, thus making you as better person...

REMEMBER: OSOK

END OF TRANSMISSION
GLOCKER21

Jerry Lachenbruch <Glocker21@yahoo.com>
Jefferson City, Montana, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 14:58:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.114.162)

Mark,
Your rig should work very well out to 600. With the 10X42, you shouldn't need high rings. It's only a 42mm Obj. I have the same scope mounted on Badger Max rings (not sure what Savage mounts like) and it works exceptionally well.
Good Luck
Jeff K <rancidcoolaid@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 15:28:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.114.195)

To the rangers out there: got a couple of questions.
Is there any ranger training at Ft. Campbell Ky?
Are all rangers Sgt or higher?

Thanks Jeff
Jeff Cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
memphis, tn, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 17:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.82)

Steve on Reloading. Don't sweat small variances in charge weight. You can't do much better with a powder measure and it seldom matters down range. I have seen deviations of up to .3 grains that still grouped with in half an inch. You might do better trickle charging, but you have to consider the value. I once went dogging out in SD. I had to load up 1000 rounds of 22-250. After about 100 rounds I said BAG IT and just tossed charges. Guess what? Accuracy was fine and dogs died en mass. Unless you shoot real Benchrest, don't waste time weighing each charge...except for 600 yard High power. Might be worth it then as Xs might net you the win. But for everything else, trickle charging is just over kill.

UARS stock. Last I heard, Accuracy international sued Gunsight and any one else they could that was involved in the UARS. Claimed it was a theft of their design. This is total BS in my opinion but that is the industry for you. Kind of gave me less than a warm fuzzy for AI. Hell, if you look at 50% of the stocks out there they all have similarities.

Tasco SS scope. It is good for the money. If you can not justify a $1000 or even a $700 scope, it is an excellent alternative and priced right. That is the key. If you have a budget for a $1000 scope and you JOB requires it, by all means, get it. But if you just shoot for fun the SS will do fine. It will do fine for serious use too, but in a limited manner. Would I feel comfy with in on an M24 in Kosovo? Maybe not. Don't know yet. But I would feel fine with it in a patrol car or on the range or in the field.

As an aside, I hate OVAL mil-dots personally so I kind of like like that10x42...Round mil-dots rule! Only Jar heads can think in 8ths!;-)

That being said, I have an LR M3 on my rifle now. Why? I felt the variable power was an advantage over the fixed power. I am now a civilian and don't abuse my rifle as much as I might. I also use it for multiple purposes and that means variable power. Ever try a running object at 50 yards with a fixed 10x? You can do it, but only if you got a good peripheral view. A fixed scope is great for long range field work but sucks if you have targets in close. So I switched to the LR M3. Still, I'd kill to get round dots in
the LR M3.

Paul, the mushy feeling of the Tasco scope is not from the mechanics. There is an O-ring in the turret to seal out water. It is fairly substantial. This is coated with a grease goo. THAT is what makes it feel mushy. You could clean off the goo, but that might take away some of the water proof-ability. Not sure. The O-ring is very tight fitting and it too contributes to the mushy feel.

Last Comment on the Tasco V Leupold scope. If you are a cop, you are better off not using the Mk4 M1 OR M3 series or the Tasco SS10x42. Get a 3.5-10x VX-III LR M1 with quarter minute turrets and get the best of BOTH Worlds. Your job does require some specific uses not found on the larger battle field and the LR M1 fits the bill perfectly. A fixed any brand is just limiting yourself.

Mark. Look into Warn Steel bases, or Baer bases. They both have the weaver style cross slot and can be used with Mk4 style mounts. Get the lowest ring you can use on your rifle. Avoid high rings at all costs. There are other Mk 4 style bases but the above two are probably the least expensive for you.

Well...back to work. Maybe I'll get to visit in another week...

Scott

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 21:11:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.57.121)

Mark:

On my Savage 110 FLP I used Weaver bases, a 61 for the rear and a 46 for the front. I plan on replacing them with a Baer base when I can, but these are doing rather nicely for now.

My scope, a 40mm Leupold, fit perfectly on my rifle using medium height using Burris Sig Zee rings. They're solid, well made, and the best thing of all: no lapping! I wouldn't want to go with high rings at all... I had enough clearance that I think that the 42mm Tasco would fit nicely.

The only thing was, the 3.5-10x40 just fit into the rings... the length was exactly right... if the scope had been any shorter at all, I would have had to have changed to a 402 front base instead of the 46. You might want to check the length of the tube between the optical bellhousings to see how close the Tasco and Leupold tubes are.

Hope that helps....

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 21:39:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.93.152)

Leslie,

I have the same rifle you use and solved the long-action vs. short tube thing by using a Leupold standard 1-piece base and burris sig. rings. The base puts the rear scope ring about 1/2 inch in front of the rear receiver-bridge. I just ish I could move my scope about 1/2" back, but helas, no extention rings.....

L8er y'all!

Stefan

PS. Has anyone seen WestForce around? He owes me something.
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 22:43:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.192.50)

For those of you who might be interested in the best police sniper training event around:

Snipercraft will be hosting SniperWeek 2000 in Miami, FL, April 26 - 29. This is a nationally recognized training event for police snipers and tactical personnel.

The Educational Seminar is held April 26 & 27. Guest speakers will address topics of interest to SWAT snipers, team leaders and administrators. Training issues, operational tactics and case studies will be featured. Product vendors will be on hand to display the latest in tactical equipment. Cost for the Seminar is $100. Price includes lunch.

The Snipercraft Challenge is a competitive training event without rival or equal. Two man sniper teams will face a series of exercises meant to test all of the sniper skills, giving them an accurate gauge of their operational readiness. This course is designed by police snipers, for police snipers. It is realistic, job-related, and fun. It follows the Seminar on April 28 & 29. Cost for the Challenge is $80.

Sign up for all four days and pay only $160. Certificates of training will be given to all attendees. SniperWeek is endorsed by the NTOA.

Participation is limited to police and military personnel only.

Snipercraft has been providing quality training and competition for police snipers for eight years. Come join the sniper community. Snipercraft is a nonprofit organization. Part of the proceeds from SniperWeek will be donated to the Police Officers Assistance Trust and the Make-A-Wish Foundation.

For complete details and registration information, contact us directly:

Snipercraft, 472 Lakeside Circle, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33326
954-389-0829 e-mail SniperZ2@aol.com Snipercraft Home Page

Derrick Bartlett <SniperZ2@aol.com>
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 23:10:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.59)

I have recently read your articles on youngsters thinking being a sniper is cool because he watches a movie. All i can say to you is
lay off of him , it isn't like you never thought about anything while
you were a kid. I am 19 , and i have been part of a para-military unit
for 6 years of my life. I learned lots of skills that not everyone
can teach, and i have taught these skills to others. You are probably going to say " Your just a kid" , well yes i am , but you automatically stereotype me with every Columbine kid there is. This
makes me mad . I had dreams when i was 10 years old, i wanted to be the best i could be, and excel at everything that i learned.I look
at myself now and i am proud, I am an officer and i have 6 other units under me , including a Scout/Sniper Unit. Just think about what you say next time , remember these "kids" will be here when we are dead and forgotten.

Corbin Smith
Corbin Smith <grim_mercy@hotmail.com>
Tampa, FL, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 23:46:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.51.7.62)

Once upon a time there was a country that produced the finest ammunition in the world. The ammunition was tested by firing twenty seven 10 shot groups and the quality of the ammunition was determined by measuring the mean radius. Every year the mean radius would get smaller, and everybody knew what mean radius meant. Anyone who read the American rifleman and could use a slide rule could tell you that even without looking at a single 10 shot group what the average 10 shot group size would measure by multiplying the mean radius by a factor of slighty over the value of three. They would also know the approximate size of the composite group would measure by multiplying the mean radius by another factor. And they could also tell you what percentage of shots would fall into one standard radial deviation, 2 standard radial deviations and so on. It looks like those days are gone now. I guess these things come and go in cycles. As I gaze into my crystal ball I can see that sometime in the future there will be such men again. If you live long enough, you might see one someday but they won't be from this planet. They will be easy to identify though, they will have pointy ears and arched eyebrows, and will walk around with their hands held high with their middle fingers parted and say nice things like "Live long and Prosper!"
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, January 11, 2000 at 23:55:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.24.225)

Mark;
I am using the Baer bases and Warne rings on a 110fp with a SS10x42 and all work very well.Unfortunately I dont think that Baer makes these bases for the short action Savage.I would recommend that you contact Warne Manufacturing and talk to Jack Warne.They make all steel weaver type bases and though I'm not sure they make them for the short action I'm guessing they do,and they are good people.Medium rings are what you want with this gun/scope combo.The Maxima series are well made and will repeat if you want QD.PH#(800)683-5590.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 00:26:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.48)

Mark:
Bruce E. caught my bad, I was thinking Savage 110 instead of 10. Anyway, if you're not planning on anything past 600 yards, I think the standard 1 piece Leupold base for a Savage 10 would work fine.

Stefan:
I was thinking that Leupold didn't make a one piece base for lefties, but re-checking the catalog I see that don't list a 1 piece left-handed base for the short-action Remington, but they do for the long-action Remington and have both short and long action 1 piece bases for lefty Savages.

While thinking about it, does Baer make left-handed 1-piece bases?

Ciao!
-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 01:18:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.208)

hello to all
i'm am a beginner when it comes to sniper rifles and i was just wondering what is a better than average sniper rifle for a beginner
that i could purchase price really isn't a problem
thanks
Gavin Cooper <Coupe03@banet.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 02:03:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.243.139)

Leslie;
As far as I know Baer only makes 2 piece base so they will fit left or right.The taper dictates that they be used on long or short action based on spacing.Warne is also now making a "Magnum" series which I have not seen.Has anyone else?If they are any more substantial than their other lines they should be VERY heavy duty.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 02:13:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.24)

Steve,
68% within 1. 95% within 2. 99.7% within 3. Empirical rule. First semester. In order to come up with any standard deviation, you must find the sample mean. What do you use?

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 02:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Jeeeezzzzzzzzzzz guuuuuyyyyyssss, please don't do it. I know what's coming, another 2 days of standard deviation and stuff. Like I said, put em all in one hole and you don't have to worry with math or compasses. If you ignore it, it will go away.

And a 19 year old officer with 6 units and a full fledged sniper unit under him. Gooch, have at it!

Has anyone contacted the Ghillie suit guy yet that I have given numbers to?

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 03:17:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.184.151)

To all who have so unselfishly responded to my request for assistance with base and ring selection, here and via e-mail, THANKS!

A few more questions if you don't mind:

1. Am I correct that the Burris Signature rings will mount to the standard Leupold base? This is an attractive option from a cost standpoint, if it'll work. Plus I won't have to worry about lapping the rings? Nah, can't be that easy!

2. Where can I find Baer bases? Is this Baer as in "Les Baer" of 1911 fame? I'm still considering the Warne and Baer base options, though the Warne Premier rings and the Leupold Mk. 4 rings are a bit over my budget now.

3. Bipods. I think I've read every article, review and typo on Sniper country twice but I still don't see a trend as to which may be the "preferred" choice. Is a bipod a "recommended" item for a newbie such as myself, or should I invest in a flour sack and some sand for now?

Thanks again for your help, and feel free to respond by e-mail if these are RTFFAQ items and I've just been too dense to grasp the obvious.

Mark
Mark <madriver@bellsouth.net>
Memphis, TN, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 05:21:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.195.27)

Corbin Smith,
Yes, you are right, many of us, particularly Marines, have wanted to serve in the military since we were young. Many others have fulfilled childhood dreams of becoming police officers and firefighters. I have often thought that those who wanted to serve in those positions since they were young bring an exceptional amount of dedication to their professions, because they see it as more than "just a job."
Not everyone, certainly not those who contribute here, thinks of all teenagers who are interested in guns as Columbine types.
With respect, I do not think that this roster is a place for minors. The information presented here is for adults, and that is made clear before surfers get to the roster. Please do not be insulted, but when you posted that you are 19 and had been "part of a paramilitary unit for 6 years," I seriously thought at first that you were alluding to the boy scouts. Again, I mean no insult.
If you want to serve, you now old enough to do that in the armed forces. I believe that the Army has a guaranteed Ranger program, the Navy has a guarnteed SEAL program, and I recently read that the Corps is even guaranteeing MOS 0321- reconnaissance man. If reserve service would fit your life better, (don't give up any kind of college scholarship) the Marine Corps has a reserve Force Recon unit in Alabama, and the National Guard has a Special Forces unit there, too. There may be others closer to your home. The guarantees assume that you make the training, which is tougher than you think.
You will find that the training there is much different than anything you have yet done. I guarantee that. There is no way that a 13 year old in the US can have any idea what being in the military means.
I have serious doubts as to the skill level and abilities of six "units" led by a 19 year old with no apparent formal training. I do not think that kids as young as 13 should be involved in paramilitary activities. You are right, "these 'kids' will be here when we are dead and forgotten," but until they are 18, they should stay kids.
I noticed you did not post the name of your unit or any of your training. There is no requirement to do that on the roster, but for the sake of credibility, I will post mine, with the disclaimer that I am often humbled by the credentials and knowledge displayed by many people who post here. I am certainly not posting it to brag. I felt you should know exactly who is responding to your post.

Rifle squad leader E Co, 2nd Bn 3rd Marines, 86-90 active
Scout/Sniper team leader STA Plt 3rd Bn 25th Marines 91-95 reserve
Support Co, 2nd Bn 19th SFGA national guard 95-present
Deputy Sheriff, Franklin County, Ohio 96
Police officer, 12 precinct, Columbus, Ohio 96-present

With respect to you, Corbin,
Semper Fi
Mark J Johnson <markj12pct@aol.com>
Columbus, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 05:46:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.43)

To CDC,
The formula for determining standard radial deviation is the same as the formula for finding out any other standard deviation assuming Gaussian distribution. I don't know how to type out those funny Greek symbols on this keyboard. you have to have the value of each shot radius from the group center to do this. To find the radius of each shot, once the group center is known, sometimes when I am feeling extra geeky, I use the Pythagorean Theorem. Other times I just measure the sucker with a dial calipers. I also use Frank Grubbs little book "Statistical Measures of Accuracy for Riflemen and Missle Engineers" and a texas instrument scientific pocket calculator. Performing SD calculations by hand blows big time!
P.S. I think the percentages might be a little different for Circular Distribution but I could be wrong.
\ \ / /
\ \/ /

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 05:47:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.101)

Steve, 'Lito, CDC
What do you guys do for a living? This is some pretty long haired stuff you're throwing about. Makes me want to try to remenber some of the engineering Physics courses I took about ten years ago.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
Blowin' around in the HIGH, WINDS in Pa, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 06:57:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.105)

Para Military force for 6 years ?

sounds like J ROTC to me ?

Hmmpf !

WESTFORCE !!!!! were are ya buddy ?

Torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
germany - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 07:43:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.225)

that "paramilitary training" even came with a secret handshake and a capn crunch decoder ring too.Wife says I'm being mean,but she can do it after being an army wife for 10 yrs.
As far as SD goes,I get enough of that at work dealing with the army eggheads.Please dont start here.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 10:52:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.5.102)

Corbin,

First off, I could care less if you are insulted or hurt by our reluctance to allow youngsters on this site. I am not saying this to be cruel to you. It is just a fact. It is not your ass on the line if one such reader takes what he sees here and decides go to practice it on his local school in a fit of self absorbed teenage angst or depression. If it comes out that he learned everything he did on Sniper Country, it will not be you who has to face a rabid anti-gun media on your doorstep. You will not have to answer questions about the site or justify its existence to media types with an agenda. We are not stereotyping kids. We are just watching our own backsides. I would think a 19 year old could plainly see that.

Whether you want to face it or not, the computer age, video killing and the internet has created and fed a certain element of youth who are now a step removed from reality, addicted to the fantasy they find on the tube. This is fact. I even watched it happen in the early 80s to friends of mine. They happily embraced fantasy instead of reality. Thank god many parents get involved before it becomes and issue, but at the same time, many newer generation parents do not. These self absorbs semi-adults totally miss the fact that their kids need them and the spiral begins. This, added to the perfectly normal instability of youth (recall we were ALL there once)has created some nasty potential in certain less than perfectly balanced kids. We here are not concerned so much with the normal child who grew up in an involved and well rounded family. Sadly, those families shrink every day. It is the kid (and I knew several when I was 15) who sits in a dark room, posters of death and demons on his wall, with anger in his heart against nothing in particular and a need to do something about it. He may not be multitude. But we do not need him here, feeding his anti-social fantasies.

Youthful Dreams. Yes, we were all there once. We understand where most kids are coming from because whether they realize it or not, we were just like many of them and contrary to what some of them may think, we can still remember that far back. Our warning to children or paramilitary types visiting this site STANDS. While 95% of the under age visitors may prove to be excellent students and honorable people, it is the 5% we must be concerned with. Kids can dream elsewhere. This site is for both the military and law enforcement professional as well as the adult hobbyist. Dealing with issues rising out of regular under age visitation would just distract everyone from their learning experience. So, kids are not welcome, even though we understand there are many that would benefit positively from the experience. Personally I know five teens I would love to welcome to the site, but I can not. There are, however, MANY sites where they are welcome and where they can learn shooting skills and theory with out the added element that sniping adds to that equation.

Finally, paranoid anti-government, military wannabees can go pound sand somewhere else as far as I am concerned. It is not OUR problem if you have a problem with that. You are more than welcome to post here but do not expect sympathy on this particular issue. If you want to claim leadership to a unit of able bodied soldiers, reach down, grab a pair, and go enlist in the service of your choice. Do your country a service. But don't brag to me about leading what, for all I know, sicne you didn't say, may be a group of kids playing war on a playground, led by some fat old fart who wanted to be a warrior in his youth but failed even at that. IF you are ROTC or equivelent, fine. But do not expect respect simply because you may lead a rabble of civilians playing at war. I am not busting on you, but since you raised the issue it required an answer from the staff.

I apologize if I sound harsh. I did not mean to verbaly spank you. But I tire of certain issues on the roster and the paramilitary is one of them.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 14:18:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Mathphobes (one and all):
This stuff is very powerful. If it bores you, skip it.

Steve,
I'm good on the normal distribution and standard deviation. My question is: How do you calculate your mean? Geometric mean? The proof would be odd.

Steve, (Hockeyref)
I'm a math student.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 14:43:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Old Corbin.

He may have be in the PeeWee Army but “children” can be some of the most aggressive fighters a country has.
First they have absolutely no fear and they will do whatever they are ordered to do because or all things they think it’s fun. A soldier will do his duty but for him to kill is considered by him and society to be a perversion. For a child it is all part of the wondrous game of war.
They are more agile, energetic and with proper training, size specific weapons and equipment are as mission capable as any 18 year old. They learn easier and can think more dynamically than the average grunt. For about the last ten years we have been training our children to kill with first person combat simulators like Doom and other arcade games.
They are harder psychologically to fight than men. On the battle field a child does not move or act like an adult soldier and a dead child has an almost angelic quality that makes it hard to defend killing them. You can use the same old justifications as with killing a man but somehow with a child they just don’t seem to wash.
Finally take a look at history. During the American civil war every able body was needed to fight. There are stories from WWII, Vietnam and Afghanistan of children not just in combat but fighting valiantly. Even in America it is only in the last hundred years that “Adults” are required to fight the wars.

This is not to justify the horror of children in combat or combat in general. It is to state that our children are as seed corn. They should be sown to make the next generation or as a last resort eaten.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 15:12:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Wonder if anyone watched the documentary/movie called "The Crossing" ...The story of Washington's Crossing the Deleware with an army composed of mainly 15-19 year old 'Civilian Rabble' to take the Hessian forces at Trenton in 1776.?
Scott; if it seems like I'm pickin on you lately...I apologize but I just have to wonder how we got from a Civilian Revolution to a The Invincible Forces of The Republic without the use of some young men to fight the battle. Seems the willingness to let them fight and die disappears with the need to fight the enemy regardless of which war it is. If soldiers were picked by experience we'd be hard pressed to field a formidable force these days.
I believe Corbin will recognize me as one of the desenters on chastising the youngers shooters who ignore the plain warnings and prohibitions on this page but he should realize that the politically correct society rules with a iorn hand in places like this concerning such matters because all our asses are on the line and put there by the degeneration of our cowardly society and our own reluctance to stand up to them. Anyone who indirectly contributes or can be made by some slick lawyer to show that he may have (even accidently)contributed to the problem of youth violence is gonna suffer at the hands of our legal system. There are those who would flaunt their eliteness till the point the bullet penetrates their body armour claiming that only they should be allowed to participate in the discussion but tis truly a shame we can't have the younger shooters here to serve as an example of what shooting and association with men of honor can have upon them but unfortunately there are those who would take advantage of it to further their own causes and cases. Sad. My father was just over 17 when he hit the beach at Normandy. Perhaps he should have been censored from that and I believe it would have been fine with him.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 15:13:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I AM LOOKING FOR BACK ISSUES OF TACTICAL SHOOTER MAGAZINE VOLUME 1 - #7,#8,AND #12. IF ANYBODY HAS THESE ISSUES I WILL PAY TOP DOLLAR FOR THEM...THANK-YOU!!!!!
ONE SHOT! <bkwest@enetis.net>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 15:13:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.168.188.124)

KIds: Kids should be left to be kids and not trained to kill. Sorry Corbin but a kid does not have the maturity for sniper training, no more than a 19year old has to command. Fact of life, sorry but men should be led by men. Kids should play games.

As to Paramilitary Unit. We have the military units to include the National Guard, police and various State Militias,where do we a need a kid paramilitary unit. God is this the equivilant to Citizens On Patrol? Sounds like a bad movie to me.

Tasco Scopes: Gooch we dont often disagree, but today we do. I have seen all scope brands go sideways. The Tasco 10x42SS and 10x42SSM, have worked well for me. I still prefer the Ultra/MK4 series but I get to write off my purchase and alot of the guys have limited funds. I see a place for the Tasco.

Scott, I even as a PD Sniper like fixed power scopes. This is how I look at it. If I am deployed closer than seventy five yards, I will use a 4x scope on an AR. If I am past 75 I will go to the fixed 10MK4. I have never broken a MK4 and it keeps its zero even when handled like a crap. I see the varibles coming off zero when beat up, as they are in PD work.

Undude and no teacher of children in the art. Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 17:41:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.44)

I missed the initial go 'round on the spotting scopes, but thought better late the never.

The absolute best scope for resolution and clarity I have tried was a Meade 10" Schmidt-Cassegrain reflector. Not exactly the thing to take along for a stalk (it only weighs ~100 pound with tripod), but good for range duty. Also, you'll get some funny looks if you show up with one at a astronomy event if its ghillied to the gills.

I have only used it a couple of times this way, both because of bulk and because it really can't focus under 200 yards. Minimum power with the eyepieces on hand was 125x - I could go up to 500x, but mirage is a problem ;). Deer look like they're right next to you at 1/2 mile or so. Scope wiggle is also a problem at higher powers.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 17:57:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Unleaded ammo:
I recently read that the Army is phasing out lead core bullets due to their environmental impact downrange. After extensive testing for a material which would closely match the performance of lead core bullets it was decided to use a tungsten/tin alloy and or a tungsten/nylon material. These "green" bullets are now in production at Lake City Arsenal. Production is presently limited to 5.56mm but 7.62mm and 50 cal will soon follow. The article I read in the Dec. issue of the Army's "Soldier" magazine stated that the new bullets perform at least as well as lead core. Does anyone here have first hand experience with this new ammo? Are the commercially available bullets produced by the "usual suspects", Sierra et al, lead core?
I almost don't want to verbalize this thought but... if I owned a private range I would be worried that this developement could establish a new standard of care and more regulation mandating the expensive remediation of lead contamination down range and a prohibtion of lead bullets.
Paul Martoccia <pmartoc@sprynet.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 18:14:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.205.162.10)

B. Rogers,

What would you have me say? That we welcome all visitors regardless of age? That a 10 year old is as welcome here as a 19 year old? We can not do it. You all come here and enjoy the site. We are happy that you do so. You reap what benefit you can from it and worry not a wit about it beyond that, at least not in the way I am going to illustrate. It is not YOUR ass on the line when something goes wrong and the media starts looking for scapegoats. They are not going to visit Bolt, or Gooch, or B. Rogers when some nitwit shoots up the neighborhood and says oh, yeah, I read how to do it on SC. We are not being PC when we ask minors to keep out. Nor do we like it. But do you really think I enjoyed having to contact the secret service when some fantasy-imbued punk threatened the President in an email to me? You think I do not see that kind of crap on a semi-regular basis from kids with their heads up their ass thinking life is just an extension of dungeons and dragons and having a willingness to drag me into it? Or that killing is cool?? I KNOW most kids are not like this. But must I expose my own family to the repercussions of their acts just to assuage hurt feelings or the lack of their parents willingness to teach them proper firearms training? If this makes me unpopular, well, tough. I have to stand by it.

You want to teach kids the finer points of marksmanship, fine! Do it on your own time as I do it on mine. I am all for it! I love it when I help a kid drill a bulls eye with regularity. But this site is not the place for them to learn. This is not Shooting Country or Kiddy Country or even Barney the Purple Marksmen Country. It is supposed to deal with one thing. Even though we include ALL extensions of long-range marksmanship, the central purpose of the site has nothing to do with the simple act of shooting. The Roster has made it seem otherwise because as shooters we enjoy a broad spectrum of shooting interests. We talk about it all here. But the site remains SNIPER Country. And that has a different connotation than just plinking prairie dogs or NRA bulls-eyes. We seem to forget that here on the roster. At times when we are having fun or just trading ideas. But the fact remains.

Train your kids all you want or feel the need to. That is your JOB as a shooter and they have should have willing parents to do that. If I knew each parent would monitor their kids I would not mind if they visited the site for educational purposes, even though I would still have reservations BECAUSE this site technically deals in long range killing. Not plinking. The Roster is not a bad place for them, but that is only because we seldom actually talk about sniping on it. But we can not risk their visits because for every one kid doing it right, with parental approval, there might be dozens doing it behind their folk's backs. I did what I wanted behind my parents, and I'd wager most of you did too. It is the rebellious nature of youth to do so at times, even when we know better. The Staff recognizes that fact and just asks that they stay off the site till they are responsible and educated enough to understand what taking a life really means. Further, You all do not have to deal with the endless emails from kids who visit anyway stating things like, "Hi, I am 10 and want to be a sniper", or "Hi, I think it is totally cool that you can blow some ones head apart at 500 yards!", thus showing no concept of what this site is about and no readiness for the information therein.

Lastly, this has nothing to do with the ability of youth to fight. Hell, most of our history as a nation or as a world civilization has seen kids at the heart of battle. Politicians count on willing, unknowing youth to fight their wars for them. That is a given. But it is also IRRELEVENT to this sites purpose. And do not even try that "elitism" crap with me. No one here is being elitist. We are not saying gee, look at us, we gots training and you don't nana nana nana. We are simply covering our ASS. Period. I didn't make the world that way. A stupid pap-fed public that refuses to take responsibility for their own actions did. finally, if a kid wants to be a sniper some day he can join the Corp or the Army when able. He will learn honor and dedicaiton along with his desire to shoot thing way out there. He will also learn civil responsibility. Something I doubt he gets in survivalist organizations which are understandably based in personal and familiar survival.

Lastly, and you can jump on me all you want on this one, (but please do it off the roster because it makes for dull reading here) I never claimed that those involved in paramilitary groups are not patriotic. But many do seem misguided. I meet them at gun shows every single time I go. If it ain't black helicopters it is FEMA, or the UN, or Reno, or Klinton, or an endless amount of paranoid ranting that makes you wonder where some of these guys got edjumacated. They may or may not have a point but by and large they always seem to forget the easiest way to effect a change. If that statement pisses you off, oh well…If these folks are so friggin upset with the nation they should drag their sorry butts out of the field of fantasy and vote. It works. At least it did when more than 21% of the nation bothered to do it. If EVERY gun owner got off his or her collective ass and hit the polls, you'd see a different nation today. But it just must be easier to bitch and moan and tell wild stories of phantom armies in the heartland waiting to take away our rights. the day we NEED to train 15 year olds for combat is the day our nation has lost it completely and it will have happened because people became so indifferent that they let the minority vote our rights away. so yeah, I laugh at all these paramilitary organizations because while they are out telling stories about the horrors of gov'mint, the rest of us are trying to build a stable society and voting to keep our rights.

As far as "The Crossing". Watched it. Twice in a row. Good show. But again, irrelevant to this sites. The militia is ALL of the people; kids of an age to fight, adults, anyone who holds their freedom valuable and wants to preserve it. You do not need a paramilitary organization with a belief system based in conspiracy to preserve that freedom. I openly admit I would rather see a motivated youth honorably serve his country than play soldier in the hinterland under the tutelage of some shiny eyed orator who speaks ill of my nation. If that pisses you off…so be it. We agree to disagree on this one.

God I hate this political crap. Sorry again for the long response. It was not meant to be confrontational but ended up sounding that way.

In need of a Molsons,

Scott

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
Stirring it up, on the Roster, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 18:15:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

I want to try and build a home made suppressor out of common household products. Can someone tell me how I can do this effectively please? Thanks for your time.
Buckmaster <brianmrog@yahoo.com>
Havre de Grace, MD, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 19:39:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.172.93.109)

BUCKMASTER !

what you are asking us to do is illegal and you should know better than that.

Respectfully

t
torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
germany - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 19:50:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.206)

RE: home made suppressor -- BAD IDEA

Unless you are licensed as a class 2 manufactuer, it is a felony to build or even possess a suppressor, unless the suppressor is registered to you. It is a real bad idea to solicit information as to how to build one. And, do you not realize that your email can be traced back to you just by posting? Is this probable cause for a search warrant of your premises now? I don't know, but it is stupid to violate the law. Email me if you want a suppressor and I will tell you the name of a licensed dealer to lawfully sell you one in your state.

Robert
Tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
Conway, AR, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 19:52:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.188)

OK Scott; Maybe read me just one more time, I thought I said we couldn't allow the kids in here..when I said,"but unfortunately there are those who would take advantage of it to further their own causes and cases." I didn't see any reason to explode on them though like some (not you if I remember right) did when they violated the gate rules. Scott, I am as concerned as you about these tax dodger, racist, "Standing Armies" that call themselves Militias. (I DON'T believe that disention from loving the Governement is a crime however.) "The real Militia" ....that is all of us as the constitution defines it is constantly misunderstood and the term is violated many times by the Media that would like to report the disarming of America under the guise that anyone who even utters the word is a terriorist. I know that you don't want to see that happen. When I tried to put the Militia in perspective (in other places, like you suggest) there was much interpretation and most of it completely out of context. Due to the fact that almost noone understood the difference including the Goverment Elite Law Enforcement Body.... it further illustrated to me that the meaning of the Citizen soldier of the Consitution is now shrouded in a cloak of media distortion and misunderstanding and probably is lost forever in the Political Correct adgenda that now plagues us all. File it there with "Assault Rifles" and "Saturday Night Specials".
If we could control the problems of youth we probably wouldn't need the LE Snipers we have today. I believe you may have a bit too much regard for the sanctity of the Roster section of your page. Many topics are covered here and just about all get unloaded on by someone from one time to another. I believe your indignation toward those things you don't approve of would protect you in most courts. Make no mistake about it. Anyone who posts here can be held to contempt for what he says. This is still a graffiti wall for the most part but civil reponsibility is still within the jurisdiction of the courts. You are right to protest for the real estate belongs to you.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 19:53:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bill R.
I thought the post was well answered by Mark, WELL SAID!!! I think by reading the post of the 19 year old that we all can gather what is mental maturity is. Like someone said earlier we are better off not to even answer them and let Scott or Pete do the policing. I know there are a lot of damn fine kids out there but there are also some real loose cannons who do not live in reality with the rest of us and we need to keep them off sight, if possible.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 22:24:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Buckmaster,

Silencer's,in most countrie's they are either illegal or restricted for civilian ownership,however in New Zealand and Finland they are easier to get than booze.

I have alway's thought that making them illegal or restricted was stupid,because they are so easy to make,a lathe and or welder and material's.Most people know a fitter/turner who has the equipment and the skill to fabricate a good workable design,most just need a drawing of your design or someone else's.Making a gun from scratch is a real mission,part's need to be of correct grade and most need hardening to some degree,making a silencer in comparison is easy.

After all, all Silencer's are just a muffer,just think of that next time you go to the Auto Shop to have a new muffer fitted to your car,hope BAFT aren't reading this.
Can you imagine having to get finger printed,pay taxe's and apply to the Gov't so you can have the muffer on your old car replaced.
Also car muffler's should in my opinion be restricted and serial numbered item's, as they do the same job as a silencer.
PC world you got to love it.

The best book on silencer's I have come across is Al Paulson's excellent book "Silencer History and Performance Vol 1".

Go to Paladin Press,you will find it there.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 22:26:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.177)

Scott, very well put.

Mr. Corbin Smith.....
You seem like a very energetic young man, if what you have written is true. I applaude your efforts to learn how to take care of yourself and to continue your education in the shooting sports. I do however hope you have completely thought out your actions dealing with paramilitary organizations and have thoroughly checked the backgrounds of those that are leading YOU. You are too young to become caught up in ANYTHING that may affect the rest of your life, either by aquaintance or by action. I hope you are educated enough to realize that there are those in this world that need Wookies to do their bidding for them because they are to chicken shit to do it themselves. I have yet to read an acount of any paramilitary leader inviting anyone out on the lawn of the Whitehouse to duel over an issue.
If you truly enjoy military type training, do what I was too stupid not to do when I had the chance, JOIN the service. I understand they are looking for a few GOOD men. In lieu of that, consider associating yourself with a survival-oriented organization rather than a militia-bring-down-the-government-organization. Sure, you will still have weapons and training issues, but you will also learn how to take care of yourself and your friends in case of a flood, tornado, hurricane or natural disaster (things that are really important in this day and time). And lastly, you are over 18 so you can VOTE. Rules is Rules here on the site as with anything else you do in life.

Damn I'm glad that's over now................

Bolt proposes a one week moratorium on anything that ain't related to shooting and snipering. Any takers?

I'll start the moratorium with the following question........
Now that the grasses and woods are more brown than green, what is the best method for continually changing your cammo, clothing and weapons?

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 22:27:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.168)

Come on, Bolt, let's have a tough one.

At this time of year, the proper camouflage is a white coverall and parka, possibly with some gray "shadows" mixed in. Don't forget a small hand shovel. Also, take good care to keep your path behind cover - it doesn't take Gooch to figger out that someone is at the end of the long trench in the snow - either that or a lovesick seal trying to get at those sheeps ya'll keep talking about. Maybe you can claim to be a narwhal and the long object is your horn.

Do NOT rest your face on the rifle during breaks - it looks awful silly to see a grown man with a rifle stuck to his tongue and it doesn't impress the sheeps either.

Anyway, as I write this, there's only about 6-8" down today. Not much of a storm.

Karl
(written with tongue firmly in cheap. In about a month or so, I'll start looking for survival supplies - one month of MREs should make people ready to deal.)
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 22:50:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

I have been looking months for the Harris Gunworks Desert Rhino .50 caliber rifle. I saw it once in American Survival Guide, but that was it. The address was in Phoenix and I live not to far from there. Any help will be appreciated
Phillip Leavitt <iron_rod2@hotmail.com>
Glendale, Arizona, USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 23:01:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.219.185.210)

"I know there are a lot of damn fine kids out there but there are also some real loose cannons who do not live in reality with the rest of us and we need to keep them off sight, if possible."
I see.....your right.....and
I know there are a log of damn fine people out there but there are also some real loose cannons who do not live in reality with the rest of us and need to have them give up their guns, if possible.

Maybe you guys are right, it's about time to limit SC to Law Enforcement and Armed Forces Duty Personnel. But what will you talk about? Caliber's will be 5.56mm & 7.62 Nato with Factory Loads only.
NO shotguns, pistols, wannabees or women allowed, sheep O.K. No discussion of Politics, or Law is allowed since your job is to enforce the will of your masters in the line of your duty. Hope you don't get your jackboots dirty wading through all this sheep dip.
Guns it is!

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 23:28:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Been a while since I posted. Have checked in a time or two lately.
Just had a free minute, read the last couple of days posts, and I gotta say, this site is still the best.

Scott, Bolt, I salute both your series of statements. That may sound a bit silly, but it's how I feel. It's one reason I like this place so much. Just can't spend as much time as I'd like.

Also, I believe that ;even though sometimes it seems my one vote won't make a difference, I'll still, by God, vote. If not, then I've no right to bitch about anything. BAecause that one vote, in fact, will make a difference.

Also, I'd like some opinions re: knives. I'm not a "knife guy" per se , but this past weekend, I saw and handled an Emerson CQC-7 at a local gun show, and bought it. It seems like a real quality piece. I still have the notion that some day (soon, hopefully) I will get a chance to assemble a basic "kit" for some longrange marksmanship and , perhaps, countersniper training. Mike M , I still remember your kind offer for a bit of guidance.

Anyway, that was my rational for getting the Emerson. Hell, I like the thing.

Well, gotta sign off for now..

Take care,
Jeff A.
still kinda at square one... and still loving it...
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, Ga., USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 00:03:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

Scott how many keyboards have you worn out? Fokes you would never believe it but Scott is a quiet shy guy that does not talk much. CJ
CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 01:10:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.157.86)

Speaking about a knife real quick, anyone handled the new Benchmade Axis lock knives? They have the lock in the handle just be hind the axis the blade uses for a pivot. Saw one of these the other day and was extremely attracted to it, I even got to touch it and hold it! It's a little pricey but it's running neck and neck with the other folder I'm considering purchasing, the Ernest Emerson Commander. Both of these knives open and close real slick for me. If anyone has any experience with both of these folders could you state which is your more favorite? Or email me and tell me? The Commander goes for around 200 and the Benchmade is about 140.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield, Ca. the it's soon gonna be illegal to own or shoot anything state, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 01:39:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.216.149)

Quick question
I have a Remington Police (26")on the way which runs about $750. After a trigger job and Uncle Sam, closer to $1100. I saw a Steyr SSG PIIK today for $1150. My question is: how is the Steyr compared to a trigger-enhanced PPS? Has anyone used the PIIK and does anyone know if it needs any work "out of the box" to do as well as I know the PSS will?
If anyone has input, please let me know ASAP as the Remington will be mine to keep by Saturday.
I know all the basics on Steyrs so, please, only experience; I can get the specs on my own.
Jeff K
Jeff K <rancidcoolaid@yahoo.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 01:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.114.195)

I have not posted here in quite a while, just drop in from time to time. This place is the best.

Have to agree that some topics in here are not for kids, or for me for that matter since I am not in armed or police service. However your discussions on camouflage, stealth, guns, reloading and ammo have helped me be a better and more confident hunter and marksman, tought me to take better care of my gun, and that has made me a happier man :)
Just wanted to say thanks.
Haraldur Gústafsson <garou@simnet.is>
Egilsst., Iceland - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 01:57:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.105.225.160)

Jeff K
Don't know anything about the PIIK but my PSS didn't cost but about 600 and my local smith set the trigger (cause I was to chicken) for 40 I think. If I shot as good as the rifle, I am sure it would shoot a consistant 5/8-3/4 MOA.
Don't understand why you are paying so much for the PSS and really don't understand what kind of trigger job you are getting for another 250 unless you are buying a whole other trigger group. Before you get the trigger job done, may I suggest that you get a smith to set the trigger for you and see how you like it. May save you alot of money that you could apply to good optics.
Gee guys, see how much I have learned in a year?

Knives are close to shooting so... The Benchmade 710 is the best folding knife that I have ever messed with. Wish they had come out before I dropped $90 on a Gerber.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 02:04:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.168)

Scott having a Molsons in your honor.
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 02:05:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.49)

Cripes a mighty. I stirred it up didn't I? Sorry guys and gals.

B. Rogers.

What’s the "B" anyway, Bill or Bob? Something else? B. Rogers sounds a bit formal for these exchanges. You can call me Scott. But not a jack booted thug. ;-)

Please understand something: I was not trying to pound you in my rant. I know it appeared that way but that was not my intent. I was trying to get the point across to ALL about why the rules are the way they are here. As far as the militia thing goes, I am not basing my feeling on media hype. I do not really care about the "militia" one way or the other. I too believe that the ENTIRE population is meant to be the militia. I do however, get irate with all the guys I meet who drone on about all this conspiracy BS they buy into. I admittedly get frustrated when I get sucked into these conversations by guys who in all ways seem normal right up to that point. My local gun shows always features these guys in their cute little paramilitary garb, handing out pamphlets about the scary black helicopters. I can not help myself if I look on them with a little derision no matter how honestly they may believe in their conspiracies. I believe in free speech but I do not believe that asking people to not waste our time with these issues on this site constitutes elitism. As pointed out before, there are sites a plenty for these issues.

"Hope you don't get your jackboots dirty wading through all this sheep dip."

Now, there you go with this elitism thing again. I do not get it. Asking folks to leave the rhetoric at home does not constitute Jackbooting around the site. Sniper Country is about snipers, sniper training, and sniper related gear and the legal killing of enemies foreign and domestic (crooks). What is so hard to understand about this and why do you become offended when we remind people of it? We have allowed most any conversation to take place here on the roster, and that in turn may have watered down the intent and direction of the site, but we can live with that to a point. Still, it is not our desire to have the roster used for political pontificating or the delving into conspiracy. Is it so offensive to you that we ask that everyone avoids conversations that lead, ironically enough, to this very waste of space I am typing right now?

If you want to call that jack booted thuggery, then you are out of line (or just being tung in cheek, which I completely relate too!). I consider you a pretty reasonable guy though, so I will read your comments as the voice of a guy just frustrated at my possibly misunderstanding him. If that is the case, I am sorry. But I am not sorry for my belief that kids need not be here and that militia discussion has its place outside of the parameters of this site.

"Maybe you guys are right, it's about time to limit SC to Law Enforcement and Armed Forces Duty Personnel."

Here again I am at a loss. How do you derive this from what I said? How does keeping kids and militia rhetoric off the site become limiting SC to LE only?

Well, at any rate, it has been interesting. But a waste of time in terms of what the site is about. Keep up the good commentary. None of us will always agree and it is tough at times to know if someone is tweeking someone or serious via the web. I meant you no slander as I am sure you meant none toward me. Jack booted thug indeed. Hell, I do not even own a pair! ;-)

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 02:35:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.86.78)

Chronograph question:

I have started the enjoyable (really, it is) task of reloading 300 win mags and have always realized that there is far more to a good round than just accuracy through paper. A good chrony will help determine a good round with its capability to measure bullet speed, which, of course, is only one of the factors for a good round.

I have looked at most chronies and haven't found a good testimonial for any particular model.

So, any suggestions? Money isn't much of an issue, as it shouldn't be with reliable equipment. I like the price and features of the Oehler 35 Proof (actually a phased doppler radar is AWESOME, but not at $92,000), but I am not sold on it, yet.

Handloading question:

Also, being a perfectionist (and driving my wife nuts in the mean time), for handloading I have tried several methods for determining chamber depth in order to get the best bullet seating depth. I have no confidence that the length I am coming up with is accurate, and a catridge overall length too long can cause disasterous results. Any suggestions for determining chamber depth with confidence?

An energetic 19 year old should seek professional training; instructors need all the fresh meat they can get.

Thanx!

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 02:41:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.84.11)

To CDC Re: Mean.
I somehow knew you would not let me off the hook so easy.
The mean with regards to standard radial deviation is the Arithmetical center of the group. It is not the Geometrical center location. To determine the Arithmetical center of the group it is desirable to work in the +X, +Y plane of the Cartesian Coordinate system to avoid using negative numbers. To start this off, you simply draw a horizontal line just below the bottom shot of the group and a vertical line just to the left of the group. Then you measure the distance both horizontaly and verticaly of each shot from your base lines and divide by the number of shots in the group for both axis. Then you draw a line parallel with the base lines at the average vertical and horizontal distances. Where the 2 lines cross is the Arithmetical Center of the group. Now if you want to get really technical, you can calculate the horizintal and vertical variance from the ACG. I am sure you know the routine for this. Now then, is this the true center of the group? The closest that a real statistitian will tell you is that the true center of the group is located within a box centered on the ACG. The size of this box is determined by the number of shots in the group. For a 15 shot group, using Chi-Sguare distribution it can be predicted with a high degree of confidence that the true center of the group is located within this box whose sides are equal to 1.5 times the standard deviation of the horizontal and vertical variances.
I hope this helps.

To Steve (Hockeyref) What do I do for a living?
I try to look busy while the boss is around. Sometimes this involves analysis of my target data. I find that this is the most profitable and entertaining time to do this stuff.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 02:43:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.220)

Non-math types definitely skip this.

Steve,
That gives a bivariate sample mean drawn from a bivariate normal distribution. This implies a bivariate (rather than a radial) sd. Works good as a response variable in a designed experiment. (See Applied Multivariate Statistical Analysis by Johnson and Wichern, Design and Analysis of Experiments by Montgomery.)
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 03:28:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Mark;
The Burris Sig. rings will fit standard Leupold bases but do not come in the "Zee" configuration which fits "Weaver" type bases in 30mm and appear rather frail.The Baer bases(which are weaver type)are available from Brownells.The Warne "Premier" series of rings are not compatible with a "Weaver" base but the "Maxima" series are and are reasonable @80.75 for throw lever QD 30mm direct from Warne,or if you dont want QD they are available in what they call "permanently attached" configuration for $50,this IS a deal on quality rings.However these rings being split vertically as opposed to horizontally would certainly cause a ring lapper some grief if it could even be done.I set up my bases very carefully and found no need to lap or correct the rings in any fashion.This scope/ring combo has been off and on (QD) many times and has NEVER failed to return to zero.The Harris bi-pod is they way to go,The "benchrest"(BR) or "low"(L) models are the best if you are going to spend time prone,much conversation has aired concerning the swivel or no swivel models,I use and like the swivel.These are for the most part strictly opinions of a rank amature,but they work for me and I can stiil afford to shoot it.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 04:30:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.178)

Has anyone heard from D.West since he moved? Why hasn't he gotten back on here yet? Anyone with any clues? Do we need to send the jackbooted thugs to his house to force him to use free Juno to get back online? (J/K about the thug-thing!)

Knives:
I've got a Benchmade mini-AFCK, and I think it's about the best knife I've ever had... I even had one "appropriated" from me, and I went and bought another for its replacement (if I ever find out who....)

The Crossing:
Nice presentation emphasizing the importance of the Battle of Trenton. Did notice the officers pushing muskets over rifles (which is historically accurate since muskets are faster to fire and sturdier for use w/ bayonets). Did appreciate the off-hand shot that took out the Colonel... wasn't at a great range, but we'll call it short-range sniping so I can talk about it here ;-)

Scott:
Not saying that I don't respect and understand what B. Rogers is saying, but you have my vote of confidence as far as site-management goes.... on a email list that I'm on we refer to the dirty work that the "list mom" has to do as "pullin' out the pee-pee stomping boots", because quite often it's needed over there. Here, I have to say that you and the others do a pretty darn good job w/o having to do any stomping, and I attribute that to that ground rule that brought all of this up: theoretically, all of us are mature adults here, and even though sometimes some elbows are bumped, it's usually civil around here.

'Night, all.....

Oh, PS.... Don't have Molson's, so I'll have to make due w/ a Rolling Rock for ya...

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 04:47:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.118)

B. Rogers, Scott: I understand the "principle of the thing" and all, but at 19, I was JUST BARELY hitting PFC. I HONESTLY don't beleive you guys buy into any of this. And Scott, please send some of those "black helicopter" militia guys out here. They would make GREAT entertainment, these old farmers with sheep crap on their boots and tobackey stains on their coveralls have lost their "entertainment value" for me ;-)

Steve, CDC: I was with you until this last step. Not sure WHY, but I was. It's a "neat to know" deal, but I always count my shots on "worst case scenario" of "what can I guarentee" (for a hunting shot, where I can't STAND to miss)? CDC, when you get the formula down, let me know. I'd LOVE to see how it does "in the field" with me shooting in changing the wind at distance! Guarenteed 10 MOA targets anyone?

Hank: I've had 2 chrono's. First was a chrony a long time ago. It was crap. Ever see a 6" python clock 2870 fps with a 158? 2nd I shelled out the "big bucks" and got a Oehler model 35. I didn't get the printer because I didn't have that much cash at the time, but if "money is no object", I would suggest it! Easier to staple slips in the log book than write them as you go. Repeatability is GREAT, and I always TRUST it because of that proof channel! Worth it's weight and then some! Only deal is, get the muzzle of a rifle away from it. After shooting pistols at about 5 feet from the muzzle, I didn't think about distance once. Rifle blasts at 5 feet WILL crack / break the skyscreen holder, but they're cheap :-)

Bolt: color matching snow and aspens? Let's just say I'm not worried.

Buckmaster: LAW ABIDING civilian or someone going for entrapment? Sounds a bit much like a little girl who posted here once asking if we wanted to see some pics. No thanks officer, I'm a GOOD GUY. And if you're joe blow, GET 'em Torsten! And Chris, don't hand 'em ideas! Next thing we know we will have "suppressor making materials" outlawed and I'll have to put the catylitic converter back on the hot rod because I can't buy good pipe :-)

Now if you guys will excuse me, I gotta figure out what to do with this black unmarked helicopter I shot down. Now I know how a car chasing dog feels when he catches it! I'm thinking maybe sell the bodies off to the Smithsonian, as they're definately vulcan snipers, pointy ears and all. For sale: one particle beam weapon, slightly bent, alien technology. $25 OBO. You can check out my pics of it at www.teenagebikerchick/hothot/warningillegal/twelveyearoldcommando.huh?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Back in the hole for another few weeks in, Utah, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 04:55:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.167)

Hi everybody,

I ran across the question about making a homemade suppressor. Correct me if I am wrong (PLEASE!), but isn't there a form under which an individual can apply to the BATF for a "one-time" license to manufacture a suppressor? I seem to recall reading about this back in the early 90's.

Can anyone tell me about the value of my No4 Mk1* Enfield? It is basically a stock rifle but was made by Savage in Chicopee, Mass. It is U.S.Property marked and has the U.S. "ordnance bomb" stamped on the left side of the reciever. This rifle is a real shooter and I would like to fit an original scope and mount to it, but not if it is a rare bird. Thanks in advance.

John
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 06:16:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.154)

Scott; the Jackboots were a tongue in cheek. Or a cheap shot, at the worst. These guys are right, this is one of the best sites on the net.
I think my best contribution has been silence between my posts. I will try to improve and add to the length of those. Marius will appreciate that I'm sure. Carry on with your good work.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 06:27:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hank; The Oehler 35p is an excellent Chrono. For around $500 you can get the chrono, stands, hard case and ballistic software for your computer. Once you accumulate a number of averages of averages for velocity readings at specific temps you can feed that in with the BC of the bullet and you can generate dead on ballistic charts. They worked great at SMTC shooting out to a 1000. It's also a great way to check consistency of your handloads. The correct distance from the center shade to the muzzle is 12 feet. All this is documented in the manual. Carry a tape measure in the case with you and extra batteries. Only problem I've had with the Oehler is when temps are below 20 degrees the cables get brittle and readings tend to be inaccurate. Also on dark overcast days it is sometimes difficult to get readings for every shot. Don't know if this is something with the Oehler or all chrono's.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 13:43:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Dudes,

A while back we were wondering why no one has ever filed a lawsuit against the antigunners? The Second Ammendment foundation did it. CHeck it out at www.saf.org. I'm joining. They are doing what the NRA should have done a long time ago.

As far as the thread on the 19 year old budding terrorist goes. (He's from Florida right? Home of Platt and Maddox?) Its real easy to play Army and run around the woods. You can sit around read Soldier of Fortune, sharpen your K-Bar and watch old reruns of Sands of Iwo Jima all you want but until you grow up and truely step into the arena as a cop/soldier or whatever, its all just a game. I had a civilian student tell me once that he didn't want to join the military because he didnt agree with its motives/actions. Huh? Some peoples though processes are warped.

As far as black helicopters etc. I think the non-event that Y2K has turned into has shown how we can all get sucked into paranoia.

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 14:40:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)

Bill R,
Come on Bill, you know me better than that, I was not trying to limit guns or anything else. I was just saying that I agree that we need to monitor some of the kids that get on here with the wrong ideas about "Sniping". I am not saying we need to monitor what is said or how it is said. I respond to what interest me and pass over what doesn't. You and I have shared many e.mails back and forth on our mutual interests and I have done so with others. I usually agree with you most of the time on some things and I may not on others but thats what makes this interesting. Hope I didn't inadverntly offend you with what I said, it was not ment that way.

Bolt,
I tend to stay to the brown side with all my cammo I find that even in the summer there is allways dead grass or leaves on the ground. I will usually add some green in the summer and take a little out in the fall and winter. Most times though around here we just need over whites in the winter but not so this year!!! Also you should cammo to your area since they are all a little different. Here in SD I find that the shredded string ghillie's work the best looks like grass.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 14:55:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Math ahead:

Steve,
You're right. Your way will work. A simple algorithm for doing it is:
1. Find group's arithmatic mean
2. Measure absolute distance of each observation from that mean
note: By transforming vectors in R2 to R1, this step causes a loss of information
3. Check the distribution of those distances for normality (normal probability plot, or whatever)

If normality good:
4. Sum the distances
5. Divide by n-1
6. Take square root
7. Use the sd calculated in step 6 to make inferrences based on the normal or t distribution, depending on the sample size

If normality no-good:
a. transform numbers from step 2 above (Box-Cox always works)
b. steps 4-7 above
c. apply inverse transformation

Damn-near trivial, and vastly more useful than "mean average radius" or "group-size".

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 15:06:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Sorry,
Step 4. Sum the SQUARE OF the distances.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 15:10:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Pat; no I was just using your example to illustrate you can blame all the problems on the actions of a few.
Seriously men I thought I was supporting the ban on site kids and saying I wish it wasn't neccessary. MY words must mean something else from the other end.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 16:23:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

DUCK SEASON! NO RABBIT SEASON!

KIDDIE COUNTRY!

NO MATH COUNTRY!

GGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

GUYS TAKE IT OFFLINE, E-MAIL EACH OTHER

OR RISK "THE WRATH OF MARIUS" WHEN HE ARCHIEVES AGAIN......... ;-)

S-N-I-P-E-R C-O-U-N-T-R-Y

SNNIIIIII-PER, SNIPER!

Tony,

Truly the Oehler 35P rules! Federal uses a similar program from Dexadine for their stuff to I believe.....

Gooch,
Hows life been treating you? Have you taken "By-Gawd Betty" to the range lately and kept her happy? Tear her right Dude!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 17:16:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)

AH-DUH,

GOOCH - "TREAT HER RIGHT" STRIKE THE TEAR HER RIGHT......

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 17:18:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)

Shooting and being in the field with glasses:

In the real world, I can only presume that there are individuals who wear glasses and perform the duty as either a police sharp shooter or a military sniper.

My question is, how do you deal with glasses without it fogging, breaking or slipping when trying to either acquire a target or getting a round off? Another issue, when stalking, what do you do with your glasses? I figure you would be concern with glare, fogging or slippage or breakage. What do snipers do when stalking?

Also in the field, do snipers clean their weapons? I would think not but always wondered. If they do, what gear do they bring out to perform this. I can not imagine using the M16A2 cleaning kit for this. As for police sharp shooters, using common sense, I think this is not a real world concern. They have different responsibilities and environment to deal with.

Thanks,
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 18:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.34)

Good question, will Rainex or one of those automotive coayings work

Inquiring Minds want to know>?????????

Chao!
peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
oftawork city, by-gawd, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 18:43:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.83)

Pete; My last few posts are about maximizing the probability of hitting what you aim at. Some of your technically oriented readers (engineers, physicists, etc.) can use the info to very good effect. But, no more. I hereby solemnly swear to never again post to this site.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 19:16:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

John, Don't screw with your Savage No.4 Mk1. While they are not rare, they do seem to demand a higher price then the obviously common rifles made by BSA, Fazakerly and others. What you have, many enfield collectors would like, so if you dick it up with scope mounts and modern mods, you'll break the heart of a good collector somewhere and possibly destroy its current value. better to buy a used commercial rifle to play with. As far as its price? Check out
http://www.paradise-web.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=tuco10&all=yes'
Tuco runs a site for C&R collectors and most of the visitors there can answer your $$ question. You'll probably even get offers. I do believe the Savage No.4 is less common than the rest.

Bill B. You buy me a Yeungling Lager and I'll buy you the poison of your choice and we'll call it even!

TJ. Me? Shy? Depends on what she looks like.

Gooch has it right. All these guys who like conspiracy and playing at war seem to never have the balls to join up…and like it or not, they do kind of crack us up a bit.
That ain't elitism.
It is just looking at it from one side of the coin. Once you enlist, it kind of puts a face on play acting. National or State service is not necessarily a hard thing. Yet many people would rather play at it than do it. Guess I'll never understand that. I know one guy who once said me to "show me everything you learned in basic". My response was, "well hell bud, you could have gone too." His response was, "but I am too busy." Guess civil responsibility means different things to different people. So I may admittedly bust on play warriors a bit. Which is funny as heck since everything is relative. Delta busts one marines, Marines bust on Army, Army busts on Guard, and EVERYONE busts on the Airfarce… ;-)

But we all love each other when the shit hits the fan and the support rolls on in!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 19:27:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

To Phillip Leavitt:
Harris Gunworks is located in a small industrial mall on the SE corner of 19th Ave and Rose Garden Lane in north Phoenix. Last I heard, they had went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy and possibly are not in business anymore. If you need any more detailed information about them , email me off Roster and I can dig up their old phone number for you.
Bob Hodge <bhodge@primenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 19:50:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.138.230.86)

Re: Glasses in the field for shooters.

Being in the Pacific Northwest, If I waited to shoot when good weather came around, I'd be screwed at best. One of the secrets I learned years ago is a product called (ok, I'm ready for the zingers....)
Cat Crap. It's a anti-fog, water repellant product designed for ski goggles. Works like a champ. Good on plastic or glass lenses.
I have tried RainX and it works for the rain, but the fog is still an issue.
Old scuba diver trick for the fog: Spit on the glass and wipe it around and then wipe off. Works.

Hope it helps the other optically challanged shooters out there.

Cheers,
Mike
Mike A. <moamike@ix.netcom.com>
Rainymistydreary, Washington, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 20:07:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.31.44.86)

Cat Crap huh? Who sells it? You got a web site or a phone number for the company? Check and see if its okay for coated optical lenses. I use Rain-X anti fog. There is regular Rain-X and the Anti-Fog.

I emailed Leupold and they said Rain-X is fine. Need to be careful about some of these treatments on coated lenses.

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 20:24:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.140)

On the field cleaning. Don't think it's a good idea unless on a sustained operation or in water or an adversely wet climate. I've seen rust start to form on the metal when a rifle gets wet and is not cleaned within a day or two. It is always a good idea to carry a flexible or breakdown field cleaning rod and some patches and oil just in case dirt gets in the barrel or if a fired case gets stuck in the chamber. I like the Kit and Caboodle because it doesn't take up much space and weight in a drag bag. I even keep a small allen wrench set inside the case.

On the rust note, I just started using a new 300 win mag that was finished in Rogaurd and NP3 on the internals. Does it help or did I just spend a little extra for nothing ?
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 20:35:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

I've been busy tonight adding some links and tools. One of the links is Marine Sniper
Vietnam! The Phantom Of Phu Bai!. It is the story of Eric England . Has anybody read this book yet? I know it was sort of controversial at one stage and almost not came out, as one of those mentioned didn't want to be mentioned.

Any info?

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 20:37:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.198.30)

Can anyone tell me what flight crew (helicopter) wears a turtle neck
blue sweater with a white collar. There were no helmets. Both pilot and co. Pilot.?
Bill <brogers@ellkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 20:56:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Thanks for the information on the fogging. I thought of Rain X and spitting onto the lens. Cat Crap, wow, that is a new one on me.

Now, what about wearing glasses in the field. That is a question that I would like help on. Re-posted my original question on glasses.

"My question is, how do you deal with glasses without it fogging, breaking or slipping when trying to either acquire a target or getting a round off? Another issue, when stalking, what do you do with your glasses? I figure you would be concern with glare, fogging or slippage or breakage. What do snipers do when stalking?"

Darren...

Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 21:05:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.34)

Cat Crap! Darn! Mike A. beat me to it.

Gooch, I think I got mine from REI once upon a time. Most ski shops carry it, and a good outdoor sports store should. It comes in a little container, kinda like Carmex comes in a jar, but it is a red plastic flip-top thingy instead of glass.

If the funky link will work, it should be http://www.rei.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=197843&prmenbr=8000 at REI.

As far as camo goes w/ glasses, if you must you can try putting tape around the outer edges, but I think that's bad because it really limits your vision. Some I've seen have tried cammy pain on them, but it usually looks more obvious than if you just cammied behind them and left the lenses alone. Using good concealment techniques, avoiding lighted areas, movement discipline, etc., will usually minimize the possibility of glasses giving you away. After all, you have a white eyeball right behind there anyway (unless you constantly squint!). Just be aware of the concerns there, and do what you can to limit their ability to compromise you. INMO.

L8R,
-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 21:34:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.93.153)

I need a magnetic azmith from the rappel tower to the hilltop downrange at SMTC...please. Mr. Gooch? Anyone? danke schoen
Paul Martoccia <pmartoc@sprynet.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 21:53:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.205.162.140)

Darren: My prescription shooting glasses are polycarbonate, have flat black frames and an anti-reflective coating. When you get your glasses you have to request the anti-reflective coating since most normal folks don't want or need it, but I think it only cost me ten bucks. The coating also scratches up so I have a pair for regular range trips, etc. and a like-new pair set aside.

The glasses have an adjustable strap on them so I can hang 'em off my neck, or help tie them in place if I'm wearing them and I'm worried about them falling off. Not a perfect solution but it's OK and convenient.

Fortunately, I'm only a little nearsighted so I could do without them altogether if for some reason I felt I had to. In my case I'd put 'em away for a stalk. Not that I stalk anyway...
some guy named Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, frickin' California, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 23:02:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.133.22.66)

Darren, when I went to sniper school at Fort Benning in 1982, the de rigeur eyeware for the optically challenged infantryman was the issued GI "Birth Control glasses." (Most women wouldn't be caught dead going out with a guy wearing these stylish spectacles, hence the name). If you're blind like me, in 1999 you have several choices: Birth Control specs (Cat Crap lens stuff is excellent, and REI and Campmor should both carry it in their catalogs); contact lenses (glory Hallelujah, except for parachute jumps and around helicopters and dust, like when you have to fast-rope); or LASIK surgery (the guys who work at the credit union are smiling now). Field use -- wear your hat. Stalking? Wear your boonie hat. Raining? Wipe off your glasses.

Tony, that NP3 coating is absolutely worthless shit. Send your rifle to me COD (I'll pay the postage and shipping) and you won't have to EVER worry about that worrisome piece of kit again. I'll make sure you won't have to take it to the range, because I'll try wearing it out for you (I hate to see a grown man pissed off at an investment he's not sure about)...really, no kidding, I'll square you away. OK, OK, I'll send you $100. Now, don't you think we'll both feel better? :)
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, where the heck are my glasses, VA, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 23:28:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Gotta agree with Dave in San Jose on the anti-reflective coating (kinda tells you how I often I shoot with my glasses any more). It really helps cut down on reflection).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Where?, VA, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 23:34:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Hi guys --

What is the general concensus out there concerning competition/tactical stocks made of laminate (wood) versus stocks made from man-made composite? I got a real good recommendation for Zero Stocks, run by Tom Pieri, who makes these stocks out of laminated maple. My current choice is between this and a McMillen. I need some wisdom poured out here, to help me make a good choice.

Thanks, fellas.
Mitch <malexander@lg.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Thursday, January 13, 2000 at 23:41:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.35.1)

Just out of curiosity, anyone out therre had any experience with suppressed sniper wepons? I used one long ago in a land far, far away (XM-21 w/Sionics), and was curious about more recent experiences. We're talking 7.62 NATO, 7.62 x 54mmR & .300 WM. No wannabes, please.
Rick Pimley <thecoldshot@aol.com>
Falls Church, VA, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 00:59:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.211)

I will never wear contacts while out in the woods. Last day of hunting season up here, middle of the afternoon, good light, I managed to trip and get into serious trouble. A branch of a sapling managed to sneak around my glasses and gave me a nasty corneal abrasion directly over the pupil of my right eye. Hurt like hell for the next four days and my vision in that eye was shot until it healed. I spent most of Monday with it covered on Vicadin. If I had been wearing contacts.... The eye protection is worth the fogging problem, believe me. I was either incredibly lucky that it didn't do more damage or unlucky that it went around the glasses.

For fogging, I use Fog-X. I thick its by the same people who put out Rain-x.

Watch out for LASIK surgery. Two people I have talked to who have had it said their night vision was significantly deminished. It may be a side effect of the procedure or it may be the doctors involved. Be sure to ask beforehand. Eyes don't grow back.

KArl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 01:11:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Mitch...
I recently took a Remington 40-XBBR in 6-BR, out of the McMillen synthetic stock, and put it into a Rem 700 VLS laminated stock after opening up the barrel channel, and glassing it.
It shoots as well as it did in the synthetic stock. It came with test groups of .21" and .25"... and It is now shooting in the high 'teens, and low 2's... I did it because I had no use for a flat bottomed stock, (don't shoot bench anymore!) and wanted wood for the asthetics (New England farmers aren't impressed with space guns!).

Pick what you like, and glass it, and you won't see the difference, unless you're shooting high end competitive bench.

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 01:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.91)

Scott is quite shy while sober. After a few rum and cokes he is bold with women,sheep and 300lbs irishmen.
CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 01:40:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.231.209)

as far as glasses goes,use a product called clear view you can find it at any paintball shop.it is made by a company called Pro Team Products in FL.can't find their #.will not fog your specs,as far as a restraining strap,never saw a use for one.with 78 static line jumps from 130s & 141s never had a problem with my glasses even remotely trying to find their own place in the world.
The none reflective coating is a godsend,it has plenty of pluses besides the cutting of reflected light.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 02:18:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.4.1)

A LITTLE HELP HERE?

Does anyone have a copy of the SS10X42 manual? The only one that came with the scope is a "general" manual that doesn't discuss any of the specific details. This general manual does mention the existance of a "model specific" manual however.

I called SWFA, and they checked their inventory and said the model specific manual wasn't included. BTW, SWFA has been a pleasure to deal with as regards this purchase. I'll definitely be going back!

If anyone could fax me a copy of their manual I'd appreciate it. Just drop me an e-mail. I'm probably don't really need the manual, but I'm curious :-)

Mark
Mark <madriver@bellsouth.net>
Memphis, TN, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 02:52:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.196.226)

I would like to thank all for their help over the last year or so. I have learned much about the sport of long range shooting and almost all of it has been thanks to this site. After many decisions and many dollars spent, I finally have a system that I am extremely pleased with.

I decided on a Rem. 700 VLS (Got a great deal on it at work, and the laminate stock is soon to be replaced with a synthetic H-S) with a Badger Ordnance 20 moa tapered mount, Badger Ordnance High Mount Maximized Scope Rings, and a Leupold Vari X-III 4.5 - 14x 50mm tactical mil-dot.

I have spent many a hard earned dollar on this setup and I am finally getting a chance to go shoot it tomorrow. I'm as excited as a 7-yr. old on Christmas Eve.

Question:

I can understand why you have to hold low when shooting downhill. I don't really understand why you would have to hold low when shooting uphill. I would think that you would have to hold high on an uphill shot since you would be fighting gravity more.

Is it that the bullet has no propellant vertically when fired level and it does have some y-axis (up/down) propellant when fired uphill?

Or is it kind of how it is more difficult to hold your arm directly out (for a long period of time) than it is to hold your arm canted vertically?

Just curious. I just got my slope doper and would like to know the logic behing it.

Thanks again to all for their help and wealth of knowledge.

E-mail me if you don't mind. I try to, but I often don't have time to read the roster.

gaveup99@hotmail.com

Thanks,

-Matt Bortz
Matt Bortz <gaveup99@hotmail.com>
pondering physics principles in flat flat , IL, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 05:49:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.115.63.27)

question about enhanced LBE vest and old pack:

I recently got one of the newer enhanced LBE setups and
hoped to use it with my older canvas (i.e. quiet) military
buttpack, but there's no way to attach it to the rear part
of the LBE (short of tieing it on). Are the newer buttpacks
setup for this, or is there a piece of gear I'm missing?

Thanks,

Bob
bucho@best.com
Otto <bucho@best.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 06:15:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.24.241.200)

Hello again

Last time I posted here I mentioned the fact that I was in the process of restoring an original Arisaka sniper in 7.7 mm. This time I am hopeing that with the combined experience here there are some oldtimers or potential Rhode scholars that might have some information on the history and tactics employed by Japanese snipers during WWII. Weeks of research, and 3 interviews later all I have been able to garner is the few piddling facts that they had the propensity for tying themselves to trees, wore woven helmets designed to allow them to better camoflage themselves, that they switched to 7.7mm from 6.5mm to give them a barely mentionable power improvement, and that the 7.7mm had the extreamly nasty reputation for shredding the man they hit like tiny flying food processors.

I have spoken to one gentleman who only remembers losing six members of his unit to one before finding his hidding place and permanently ending his sniping carreer, and another who never saw one in person but snagged one of their weapons on his way home from the war as a real wiz bang deer rifle.

Any information including tactics, deployment strategies, supporting gear, and weather or not they operated in singles or in pairs would be greatly appreciated. For these men to have been considered the scourges of the Pacific no one seems to know very much about them.

Thanks
J. Baker <catchdatrout@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 08:14:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.105.43)

Scott: You bustin on my Air Farce?! Seems like eveyone was my friend when I called in Hawgs for some 30mm tank sniping . . .:)

Bill: helo uniforms, blue sweaters with white collars, no helmits. Digging back in my memory but I could have sworn that I recalled seeing either or both Brit and SA helo drivers wearing that outfit . . . or maybe it was those hired driver for that outfit from SA, "Executive Outcomes."

All: my first little girl is about two weeks out. Many thanks for the tips and insights of shooting coupled with new fatherhood. Dryfiring progressing nicely. Even invested in a simple .22 trap for some .22 work in my detached shop (but close enough for the monitor to crackle to life when it's my time to do the "doody"). Took the last great vacation for awhile. If anyone is in the DC area, I would encourage you to check out the NRA's National Firearms Museum. Had a sniper weapon display and an outstanding collection of everything. Got a light head from all of my panting at the displays.

Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 09:45:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.39.133.10)

Would anyone offer an opinion on the ARMS Q.D. scope rings as sold by Fulton Armory. These would be used with a Brookfield Precision mount on an M1A.
My first time at this web site after observing it for a few weeks.
Thanks
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 14:00:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.97)

I was a sniper when I was the Norwegian army.
I had the Barett 82A1, and I have to say that it's an exellent for taking out those annoying APC at long range!
Jo Andreas Berg <joandreasb@hotmail.com>
Lakselv, Finnmark, Norway - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 14:06:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.92.110.57)

Can someone give me a link where I can learn more about detachable magazine conversions for Remington long action bolt guns. I am considerind converting my rifle but want to find someone who will do a high quality conversion and supply some extra magazines.
Thanks,
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 15:11:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.169)

Mitch, A high quality laminated stock is very effective to a point. It is way better than a normal wood stock as resisting warp due to weather. The German 98k benefited form this type of stock back when they did not even understand the benefit. They just did it for economics. Anyway, history aside, a laminate is good, but it can not approach the impervious nature of a composite. Surely composites are not as pretty, but if you want to drag it through crud, wet and general meteorological shit, composite is the way to go. For a bench gun though I think it is pretty irrelevant. Either works fine with good bedding.

Mark, I have the manual for the SS10x42M. It is not a great work but it does give the stats on the mil-dot reticle and cover a few things not found in the normal manuals. I might scan it and provide it on the review of that scope. It is similar enough to be usable for the SS10x42 as produced a year ago with the standard army mil-dot reticle. You folks hwo say the new one has a two mil spacing between the dots are outta luck.

Matt. You are in effect shooting at a shorter distance when shooting up or down hill. To illustrate it, from a starting point, draw a horizontal line on paper, say 10 inches long. This represents line of sight on level ground and the starting point is your firing point. Now draw a vertical line a five inches from the point of origin of the first line, and extend it above and below that original horizontal line a few inches. For the sake of argument, call that the 500 yard mark. Next measure above the horizontal line 1.5" and place a dot on the vertical line. Do the same below the horizontal line. Now draw new lines from the point of origin (firing point) to those dots. If you measure the distances from the point of origin to the dots on the angled lines, you will note that the distance is not 5" but about 5.25". So, to put it all together, if your target was standing on one of those dots, up or down from your firing point, he would be, in terms of line of sight, MORE than 500 yards away. For the sake of argument, well call it 525 yards. You milled him out at 525 yards. But the horizontal distance to the target is still only 500 yards. That is the real distance your bullet has to travel under the affect of gravity. So, using the mil-dot master or the slope doper, you can easily do the real math for the target. Even though you know it is 525 yards away, up or down hill, the tool you have lets you calculate what the real distance is in terms of what the bullet "feels". To it, it only has to travel 500 yards to hit the target dead on. If you do not aim low accordingly, you will hit high on the target or shoot over it, because it is really only 500 yards away, horizontally. This make it clear or only serve to confuse you?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 15:19:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

J. Baker:
Re Jap snipers. You can find some fair info in the book, Inside the Cross Hairs and other similar sniping works. I do not have much either except that they were so effective because to them, it was kind of a suicide mission, tactics wise. They would willingly expose themselves from the same position if it meant killing more G.I.s. Their camo was excellent, but once they stuck to their ground they typically caught hell from the marines. Many died and little is written because I do not believe many real ones survived or were interviewed after the war. They just kept shooting until someone whacked 'em with a sub gun or a 37mm. Also, our side considered ANY single shot to be a sniper shot. The regular Japanese troop was a skilled rifleman and was not above individually plinking at our guys. This fire was often mistaken by our side as sniper fire, when it was really just an infantryman doing his job right. So to us, it appeared as though the japs were fielding a ton of snipers when in reality, many shootings were just the result of a well trained troop with an open sighted rifle. But the legend built in the US ranks about the fearful and fearless jap sniper. Lastly, the 6.5mm rifle was an excellent choice in terms of concealment. That LOOOONG barrel made for a very quiet report and almost no blast signature or muzzle flash. An plain old troop, sitting in vegetation could shoot at a marine squad from a short distance and not be noticed.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 15:50:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

Morris:

Nah, I LOVE the AF. However, I do recall having some fun at the expense of a few ground pounding AF buddies of mine. Paper pushers they were and we just kind of laughed at their marksmanship skills. Of course, so long as they could get the bombsto the planes on time, who cared if they could hit the broad sid of a fat chick at six yards!!!

However, I have to tell you, as a pilot myself, I was in SERIOUS envy of any jock who got to fly for the force. Man, I wanted that BAD. But sucked at the math!!!! I am a mean stick, but lousy at class work math.

Scott
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 15:56:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

Jo Andreas Berg :

Welcome aboard! Pesky APCs aye? I can relate. Of course I didn't have the Big Barret. I had to make due with the wee little TOW missile. They make a REALLy satisfying bang when you hit something with 'em!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 15:59:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

Don, HS Precision makes the BEST detachable magazine system for the Remington BAR none.

That being said. Don't bother. SAVE YOUR MONEY. I have yet to hear of a good reason for a DM type magazine in either LE or civilian use, other than for grins and thrills. If you need that much fire support you got the wrong gun. I KNOW many will disagree with me on this and many may be profesisonal snipers, of which I am not. But seriously, if you have multiple targets on a call out, you'd better have multiple shooters. Being able to dump a fresh mag into a bolt gun might be useful in real combat, but it is just an expensive luxury in the civilian world.

All, have a great weekend. I am outta here!

Bill Rogers: Where is my BEER man!!! Yours is sitting here gittin' warm!!!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 16:05:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

Seeking assistance...
Does anyone know of a load recipe that approaches or duplicates the Winchester military round for .300 Winchester Magnum ( see box label below )

20 CARTRIDGES
.300 WINCHESTER MAGNUM MATCH
190 GRAIN HPBT BULLET
1305-01-018-1547 ( A191 )
N00164-94-C-0063
LOT WCC95M003-001 A

I amm on my last box and my efforts to duplicate have been rather fruitless.

please conact me via e mail

Hooch

Hooch <Glocker21@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 16:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.28.130.7)

Some questions:

1) when attempting to communicate length of pull for a rifle stock setup, from what point to what point is measured? Is there an accepted technique for determining LOP other that
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 16:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Sorry for the incomplete post, not sure what happened....

Some questions:

1) when attempting to communicate length of pull for a rifle stock setup, from what point to what point is measured? Is there an accepted
technique for determining LOP other than "it feels right"?

2) I have developed a load of 44 gr of IMR 4064, LC case, 175 gr sierra BTHP and rem match primers. This gives me just over 2650 fps out of my Rem BDL .308 with a 24 in stock barrel. I would appreciate a suggestion as to how far back to go with the powder to start a load workup for a 26" Cooper Precision 5R SS barrel. I'm thinking that jumping back to 43 gr and working up from there would be OK, but figured I'd check with some of the more experienced folks first.

3) Is there an accepted meathod for measuring eye relief relative to the stock. I'm in the process of spec'ing a rifle and would like to have the smith install the new scope. I have my Rem BDL in a VS synth stock, which has the scope eye relief set perfect. The new rifle will have a Mac A2 stock on it...is this an experiment with too many variables or has someone come up with a creative way of measuring and matching eye relief from stock to stock?

4) Ghillie constuction....I have a whole bunch of dyed burlap, some nylon web and a small piece of netting...would like input on the following..

a) What colors produced best results at last years stalk on Storm Mountain during Sept?

b) How much burlap is enough, especially in the areas of the shoulders, lower back and legs (how do the pros cover boots and lower legs?)

c) the kit I bought suggests you configure one side in green and the other in brown, making the suit reversable...this seems like a compromise that will leave me with a too bulky, too heavy, too hot solution. Is there someplace that sells netting that works well and is cheap...to make two suits.

d) how do you attach inigenous vegetation to the suit, 550 cord? nylon elastic straps? What about long grassy areas, how do you get grass to stay attached?

e) willing to trade medical knowledge and support at this years competition for someone willing to share this knowledge. ...just trying to do my recon and prep work up front.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 16:52:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

SR25 Match/Tactical Rifle Forum...

Wanted for Forum reference library: Harris Publications Annual "1998 Special Weapons for Military & Police"-contains article titled "Saga of the SR25".
If you have other articles and information on the SR25 -(looking for photos too)- you wish to share with Forum members please contact me by e-mail or by my Website link to the Forum and post in "Articles and Information" folder.

Thanks,

ASPSR25MK4@aol.com <SR25MK4@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 18:22:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.181)

Can anyone suggest which type reticle to choose? What are the differences? I'm mostly interested in target shooting.
don <cochise13@aol.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 19:27:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.237.70.164)

All,

I am about to begin the California P.O.S.T. training. Does anyone have any suggestions? I do not intend on being a Kalifornia "peace" officer. I intend to either work in Nevada or any other state that appreciates honest citezens and their right to bear arms (I want a class 3 license...for FUN!). I start next month if all goes well. I decided to go to a non affiliated course, since you can actually be a dare I say White christain male and still get certified.
I am looking forward to this "training" yet it can't be as tough as Marine recriut training. The positive aspects are that I am allowed to provide my own firearms to qualify with. Any advice or anyone who has a P.O.S.T. certificate that may shed some light on the book work will be of great help.

All,

I am also curious, I am seeing so many people who are jumping on the band waggon with this .260 Remington when the 6.5x55 Swede is every bit as good, if not better. I think my next pet project will be a 6.5x55 in a Mauser action in a mannlicher style that will be my little deer harvester. I think many people are trying to reinvent the wheel with these almost Mauser type of cartridges. Mr. Gooch may disagree but I think that a 6.5x55mm would make a dandy little 1000m hole puncher.
Has anyone tried penetration tests with a 165gr AP in a .300 Weatherby? I am predicting that out to 200m it will be nasty on a hardened target. Does anyone out in sniper wonderland actually have an interest in fine sporting rifles? I am selling quite a few if interested. .505 Gibbs, .404 Jeffreys (custom Sako) and .416 Wea. Lasermark to name just a few. Sorry guys no sexy para military stuff. Of course all the rules apply to any serious inquiries, FFL etc.
Has anyone tried the 175gr Sierra HPBT using Varget? I tried it in my .308 Win and was suprised! .168" at 100m repeated the group 5 times never over.237". Any sixgun philes out there? Perhaps I am the only Elmer Kieth fan, yet ten again.....
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 21:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.162)

All,

I saw mention that SC may restrict the site to military and L.E. only. Well if this does happen it will force me to generate a site for civilian only. The free exchange of ideas is what makes this great nation of ours what it is, the holy land of freedom. Well once upon a time anyway. I have seen several gun related sites close down due to political pressure put on them by the Marxist press.
Gentlmen. Communism is alive and well. It has relocated it's ideologies into the DNC and worst of all in our public shcool system. I am a ardent anti-communist, and proud to state such. Capitulating to a bunch of crying little political whores will do nothing but serve them. I think that the operators of this site understand this as well as all of should understand the setiuation.
I like this site, and we all can learn a lot from one another, especially the value of our primary weapon system, our minds. This so called "free" press is using what George Orwell coined "Newspeak". If I may point out that the term "Politically Correct" was first used in the book "The Communist Manifesto" as well as Mao Tse Tungs literary work, if such evilness can be construed as literature. Mao wiped out 30 million of his own people in the name of political correctness. Now they control the Panama canal.
As for the Hollywood bunch that threatened to leave the country if G.W. Bush gets the vote; dont let the door hit you on your way out of MY and OUR country! This was my Y2K political smack of the day.
A Marine Captain by the name Jeb Calhoun told us in Kuwait "Freedom has but one price, blood. Thank God the Iraqis paid for it this time."
Semper Fidelis to all my brothers!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 21:29:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.162)

To J. Baker Re: Jap Snipers
There is a book called "U.S. Marine Corps Scout-Sniper WWII and Korea" by Peter Senich that has a chapter on the Jap sniper with some pictures. Also if you go to the bottom of the roster and click on return to headquaters, and then from there go to the hot links section, once you are there look for a link called Tuco or Moisin man
There they have all kinds of forums, one deals strictly with jap and french weapons. You might have some luck there.
You could also check out this site,
http://www.conknet.com/banzai/
There is a list called scope logo's that shows that there were dozens of Japaneese scope makers and it looks like they made a boatload of scopes, and the serial numbers range that each company made. I have looked thru a few Jap scopes and I can tell you that the ones I saw had a pretty elaborate reticule with all kinds of scales and grid marks. Most war scopes made were either 2.5 power or 4 power.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 21:51:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.21)

All,

Nothing but shooting related stuff now. Sacramento Valley Shooting range. I have not been there yet. I understand it's close to Ione. I want to go out there and shoot with some of these guys on SC. Do they have facilities for NRA service rifle? Will they let you set up gongs to shoot at? I am asking since the place is with in an hour of me. The only thing is I have no idea how to get there. I will be trveling via HWY 49 through or past Jackson rather. Any shooters in the 50 mile radius of Sacramento? I sometimes visit the range at Cordova, they get up tight when I want to set up my chronograph. The thing I don't like about Cordova is that many times I am trying out some new loads and I get a throng of people with a thousand silly questions. Are you a sniper? Is that a assault rifle? Are you in a militia? and so on. I don't have time to play Q&A with sillyvilians who are totally clueless.
I do however like to embarrass the arrogant husband or boyfriend who drags his girlfriend out there just to show off or make his woman feel less than entertained. "Se honey real men can hit the black." And the poor girl tries and tries but misses every time. I let a woman once who was feeling down and out shoot my rifle. After a 5 minute period of instruction and some soft coaching she put them all (5 shots) in a little group of .738". I said "Show this to your man." About five of us signed thetarget as witneses so she could strut for a change. What nasty looks we all got from her "man". Heh! And I'll do it again too.
Does any one shoot at reactive targets? Golf balls, balloons, plaster castings or the like? If so give me some ideas, I am running out.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 21:57:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.162)

Karma; no no no don't repeat that. There are no plans to restrict SC that I know of. I mentioned it in a stupid moment. A thousand pardons to all the staff and everyone else. I shouldn't have mouthed it even.

Bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 22:05:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Jim Mitchell,

LOP. Measure from the center of the trigger to the center of the butstock. As I remember that is how to determine LOP. The standard isbetween 13 1/2" to 13 3/4". If you are over 5'11" then you should go with 14". I have made stocks before and this is what I used to measure it out. Are you into stockmaking?
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 22:15:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.162)

I've decided to purchase a new drag bag for my M40A1. I have narrowed it down to either Eagle or Blackhawk. Can you guys give me some input.
I'm looking for pro's and con's from the guys who are using these things.
Thanks,
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 22:22:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.177)

On the reticle question, don't get a mildot, will drive you crazy if you are strictly target shooting. Same goes for a spotting scope for target only spotting. If you are going to use the rifle for target and hunting, would stick with standard duplex. Target shooting only, would stick with thin duplex. You will loose the thin duplex in the woods for hunting. Tried it before I listened as usual:(

On the drag bag, good luck. Can't find anyone that uses one yet that can tell me how to sneaky pete up to a shooting position, pull the weapon out of the bag and take a shot without the Goocher nipping your bud.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 22:40:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.45.34)

Hooch,

This is my first visit to the roster. As far as I can see this is a great place to get information on specific items.

A good friend of mine has been comming here for a couple of months now.

Check with Tony W. from Murfreesboro, Tn. He has been a avid loader for years. He will probbaly be able to asist you with your 300 win mag load.

Cheyenne
Cheyenne Watson <crwatson@hotmail.com>
Nashville, TN, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 22:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.2.26)

Scott,
Finally!A fellow TOW gunner.Did you ever get to spot for the sniper program at Bragg?It was always a hoot to pick them out on stalks for the cadre.Must admit,spotting some of them was a real bear when there was only 2 of us and 10 of them to find in 3-4 hrs.But it was always beat some BS detail.
Jo Andreas,
I will be coming to Norway at the end of january or beginning of febuary to teach the armourers course for the M82A1's for the company.Really looking forward to seeing your country.
John,
The ARMS QD rings are good rings,they do raise your scope a little to high to get a good cheek weld.To each there own.Me personally,I wouldn't use them on an already high scope mount.

Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Friday, January 14, 2000 at 22:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.3.166)

Bad Karma:
NO! SC is NOT going to go "law-enforcement and military only". A good while back there had been talk of a separate board for more sensitive subjects, but it was "shot down". As B Rogers said, he had made a sarcastic comment in jest, and it was taken the wrong way. No need to start a separate board.

Question:
Does anyone have any courses to recommend regarding survival? I'm not talking about little mini- "boot camp" courses, or high-dollar country-club affairs. I'm interested in something that really concentrates on woodcraft skills that would be useful in a mission consisting of a long-range deployment w/o resupply capabilities. I'm not wanting something that would be a 'commando' school, per se, but something like that would be probably pretty close. Maybe not even gun-related, more like a hippie living in the wild-type of situation might offer the kinds of things I'm interested in. [I do have one or two in mind already (Tom Brown), but I thought I'd throw this out to see if I could get you all to turn up some others that I don't know about.]

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 00:44:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.223)

Mark;
I contacted Tasco for that model specific owners manual when trying to resolve the mil-scale/Tasco goofy dot issue,and I got what it sounds like you are describing,I would offer to send it to you but frankly it would be a waste of time as there is no information of value in it.There was much hashing and re-hashing of the mil-dot values in these scopes as the Tasco website as well as SWFA's ad showed the values at something other than 1 mil spacing.I found this information to be false and the spacing to be 1 mil.After pimping the Tasco to you and others I will say this much,If you call them don't expect to talk to anyone who knows anything,Don't expect a thorough manual.I talked to a guy who was purported to be an engineer and explained my concern for the mil-scale values being as advertised and asked for him to verify them,so he copied the P.O.S. manual and faxed it to me.I'm not sure he knew what a mil-dot is.Moral of the story is that its kinda like buying something from Sears and Roebuck...Know what you're buying and how to use it because nobody that works there does.Or post a question here and somebody will tell you more about it than you ever thought you wanted to know.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 02:43:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.31)

All,

Regarding drag bags. I have heard a lot of different things about drag bags. What is a drag bag supposed to really do? I ask this because I am into making my own stuff. I sew all my "sniper" cammies to MY specifications and such. If someone could give me the criteria on a dream drag bag I'll try and put it together. What I am using now is a cammie pack cover with a ponch liner to pad the gun. I ahve a stow away padded slin for over the shoulder carry, like MG style. You 0331s know what I mean. Then I have alice pack straps to carry the whole rig like a back pack. I have a quck release system that I use to get the gun "up". It (the gun) can be in position in less than 8 seconds. It's cheap and it works. Total cost? $25!
What on God's Earth is a slope doper? What does it look like? How do I obtain one?

Jim Mitchell,

I saw your load for the .308/7.62 NATO. I've used that load before and found that 43.0gr of Varget does wonders. I have some LC brass, but I don't use it very often because it is a real MFer to FL resize. I don't know what the hell they make it out of but I do know that it has a higher content of zinc in it than commercial stuff.

All,

Where can I buy 173gr FMJ/BTs at? No one, and I mean no one seems to have them. I had several thousand for plinking and now I'm down to about 150, maybe.

Has anyone tried the Barns 165gr Solid bronze .308" dia. boat tails? The deal is this. I am researching the .308 Winchester for precision target and hunting applications. Eventually I will publish my findings. I hate looking up a load only to see minimal amount of data on the subject.
Would anyone be interested in a website dedicated to all aspects of reloading? Hunting, target, tactical, plinking, handguns and so on? If so I am looking for a few folks willing to assist in puting it together. Once I get a good PC I intend to have photos, video, and reader contributions all inclusive. It's a long shot that will take time. I am hoping to have balistic software so one may download their results from their chronograph and all you need is a mouse. I think it is a worth while project. I like SC but it seems that I only visit the duty roster.
Sorry about my over reaction to the military/l.e. thing. I saw that Sellguns.com is off the net now, pissed me off too. I love my country so much and my Constitution more so that it pisses me off that animal pornogrphy and other sick sh*t is tolorated, yet when it comes to basic freedoms for you and I we seem to matter not. I piss in the face of communism, socialism, liberalism, and all that is un-American. This nation shall recover as we always do. When I think of another Democrat White House all I see is a giant boot stomping on freedom and those people who hold it as sacred as religion.
Suggestion, would it be possible at the begining of the Duty Roster, before the warnings, to have a daily or weekly quote from one of our founding fathers? Thomas Pane, Ethan Allen, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and other great men? Ithink it would be absolutly motivating!
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 02:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.74)

Bruce and all,

Thanks for the info on the SS10X42 manual. I called Tasco today and they're sending one out, but it sounds as if it won't be of much use.

Just what is the deal with the dot spacing? Is it really 1 mil, despite the info on Tasco's site? Tasco's site shows a 6.60" spacing at 100 yds, and a measurement of 0.50" that I "assume" is the dot diameter @ 100 yds. Definitely not a 1 mil spacing or a .75 MOA dot! So far I've just been able to fondle the scope, since the rifle hasn't arrived here yet. It's somewhere between the distributor, Jersey City Armory, and Memphis! Probably safe to say it's on a brown truck though :-) Anyway, I haven't been able to determine for myself what the spacing is.

I realize this was probably beat to death here on the roster before I arrived, so please feel free to point me somewhere off the roster.

Finally, thanks again to everyone. The response to my questions, both on the roster and by e-mail, has been overwhelming.

Mark

Mark <madriver@bellsouth.net>
Memphis, TN, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 05:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.194.211)

Hello again, I would like to take the chance to thank Scott and Steve for your help in tracking down the history of Japans sniper history.
I would also like to thank the people who took the time to email me personal stories and directing me to new resources.

Scott, your description of the bravery of their shooters goes along with what was said by an old Japanese gentelman I met who said in those days, they beleived that in his words "duty weighs like a mountain while death is as light as a feather". as for the regular soldiers being great shots, I beleive while they were helping to put down the Boxer rebellion in China the Japanese said that they would come back and match the Marines abilities in shooting in the next war. At least thats what is says in the American Rifleman magazine from a few years back.

Steve, thanks for the added information on Japanese reticles, I had heard the they were made of human hair to make them extreamly fine but had no idea they were as complex as you describe.I hope to study one for myself at somepoint.

Next stop is to Barnes and Noble to track down some of the books that have been suggested. Please keep the information coming folks every lead and tip helps.
J. Baker <catchdatrout@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 05:50:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.194.43)

OK I settled the Tasco mildot question once before so here goes again. Take your target and draw a solid rectangle 1" wide by 3.5" long...OK,OK,OK I KNOW a mil is 3.6whatever inches but 3.5" is enough for practical accuracy. Place your target at 100 yds. Go back to your rifle - look through your Tasco SS10x42 at the rectangle you've drawn - the dots to be a TRUE mildot will fall center of any dot to center of the next dot on the rectangle you drew. This works and on MY SS10x42 I can check this EVERYTIME I use my target because I drew the rectangle on the cardboard backing on my stand. Have had my SS10x42 for a year and a half to two years and have had NO problems to date! It IS A TRUE mildot!!
Anybody want more answers I'll try to give them!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 05:58:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.225)

Hello all.

I would just like to thank everyone who responded to my question about replacing my Rem. 700. I know you guys have answered similar questions dozens of times before, so special thanks for helping me out. I couldn't have asked for better advice than I received. You are all real gentlemen.

Ryan Lloyd

Ryan Lloyd <BFG@home.com>
Penticton, British Columbia, Canada - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 06:47:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.66.179.19)

BK,

I got both the Slope Doper, and the Mildot Master. The Slope Doper is used to determine the corrected elevation to the target. This is needed when shooting uphill, or downhill. The Mildot Master has this feature, but is not as precise.
If you want to see one check out Storm Mountain website, and click on the Supply Room. They sell both items there. If you got a Mildot Reticle on your scopes, then by all means order these two little thingies. I have had nothing but good results with these, and my Mildot Scope.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 13:55:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.173)

All,

I was thinking of putting a 3/4 Mil-dot reticle in my Leupold 6.5-20x50mm. Will the slope doper and the mil-dot master still work with the power change from 10x to 20x? If so, will Leupold have the literature to support the scope? Or will I just convert all the data? I can't afford to buy a new scope right now. When I can afford a scope I think I will go for a pair of Tasco SS10x42M scopes. One for my bolt jobbie and one for the M1A.
Thanks in advance.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 19:21:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.149)

Glad to see we are back to shooting topics.

300Win Mag 190's: If any one has the info on what the military load data is please give it to me. Jerry is just about done and I need to roll some 190's

Drag Bags: I recently used a bag from Eagle, that just folds over the rifle and doubles as a mat. I used it at the Hathcock Match and loved it.

Tasco Super Sniper Scopes are one mildot spaced. That was a military requirement.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 22:02:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.53)

Mikey,

I believe something similar to Re-22 was used for the development of the A-191 load. 3.500" OAL at least according to the stuff I got from NSWC-Crane. specs call for 190 MK @ 2900 fps/ + or -50 fps

H-1000 at between 78.0 -79.5 grains should do the trick, just some free time and a chrono my friend.............

The Hodgdons H-1000 is the same family as Varget [ BIG :-) ], and has shown real good consistency with me so far during during my load development.

Jeff A.

Emersons Rule! and look real good next to a Kimber Classic Too.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 22:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.36)

To All,
Here is a little story that involves a Retired Navy pilot, a few alleged hunting violations, a game warden, a judge, and a call of nature. I think it is both funny and tragic at the same time. And It has the makings of a great JAG episode. I would like to hear from anyone who would care to comment about this. Hunters, Law Enforcement, Military, (active or retired). Was justice served in this case?
I promise to keep my mouth shut!
Click on my name (not my email adress) at the bottom to read the story.
If one of you webmasters care to cut and paste it to the roster, I would not mind.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 23:25:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.185)

Leslie,
I dont know about courses, but the is a good magazine on primitive skill called Wilderness Way:
www.pioneerpc.com/wildernessway.
There is a survival skill school up here in Oregon but it is very expensive. It is called the Northwest School of Survival and they train across the country. Check it out:
www.nwsos.com

TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Wynona's big brown beaver state, Oregon, USA - Saturday, January 15, 2000 at 23:35:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.198)

Hi y'all,

Do any of you know any good links where I could learn everything I ever wanted to know about Service Rifle/Hi-Power competition? I'm especially interested in weapons specs. If there are any shoots of this nature here in KY, it is as closely guarded a secret as the whereabouts of Jimmy Hoffa!
Thanks for your help

John
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
KY, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 04:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.88)

John,

We shoot HighPower matches at Ft Knox Ky on the Scott Mountain Range. The season starts in April, and runs thru the end of Sept. We usually start the season with an "M1 Clinic", and then shoot a Regional Match Course ( 80 shots for record ) once a month. We also shoot 2 or 3 Long Range 1000yd matches a year too.
There are a couple of other places to shoot in the area too. Camp Atterbury Indiana, Southern Indiana Rifle and Pistol club near Borden Indiana, and the Miami Valley gun club east of Cincinati Ohio. These are all full distance ranges, out to at least 500yds. I will email you some info on Ft Knox match dates.
You're right about Highpower being a big secret in this area. It is not intentional, it just seems to work out that way.
There are also some ranges that shoot a reduced distance course.
Feel free to email me if you like.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 04:22:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.37)

TR:
Thanks for the leads.... Tom Brown's classes aren't cheap either, hence the reason I haven't attended... one day.....

BK:
Mil-dots are only calibrated for the highest power setting on zoom scopes. However, you could work up your own tables for what the mil-dots mean at the lower power.... essentially learning two sets of mil-dots, but you could then use it at either end of the power range.

The Slope Doper is essentially an upside down protractor with a pendulum.... but really nice, made for field use specifically for shooting.

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 05:36:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.186)

All,

Ahhhhh! Went shooting today, first time in about a month. Relaxation is beat on the range. Actually in the woods. With two .44s and a .45 LC. Those 300gr FP are awesome! I love my single actions, they have such classy lines and a feel like no other. The stag horn grips are a nice touch too. I shot my .44 Special 2" Bulldog today and that thing is great for those encounters that are up close and personal. I think I will invest in some Glasers for it, since the Geneva Convention only applies to troops and not armed intruders.

Leslie,

Would an M2 compass work? They are pricey but NICE! I am still tossing the idea around about a laser range finder. I just have reservations of relying on anything electronic in the field. If I get one I will master the use of mil-dots first. Two systems are better than one.

300 Win mag.

I think the load that I used was a 200gr MK with IMR-4350. I have noticed that the .300 Win can be fickle with IMR-4350 though. I am going to devote the Spring to my .300 Win. using 175s and some nice 168s too.

About the invite tomorrw @ Sac Valley,

Can't make it. Sorry gents, perhaps next week. My buddy is leaving for Border Patrol Academy next week and we are planning a few shoots to celebrate. Then I am off to P.O.S.T. academy myself. May the winds be calm for you and your target clear.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 07:21:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.76)

Bad Karme...
The level in the M2 compass is for measuring inclines, and works best if it's sitting on a rock ledge. By the time you got a reading, holding it in your hand, the match would be over. However, don't let that detour you from bying one... It's a great compass, and available in mils or degrees.

Brunton (the M2 compass people) also make a line of inclinometers, about the size of a small pocket calculator... you sight along it, and read the angle through the window.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 14:16:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60)

BK:
Pab's right... I've got a Brunton pocket transit, and it's a really great compass: tough aluminum housing, adjustable declination, inclinometer... it's ideal for making strike-n-dip measurements of bedding planes of rocks (what it was designed for!), and it very usable for orienteering. The M2 is a plastic version that is in mils instead of degrees.
It's fine for measuring angles IF you've got the time. But if you're in a timed event in a competition, or about to take a critical headshot on a baddie, the slope-doper would be much quicker to use.

In addition to Brunton, Suunto makes some nice site-thru inclinometers that I've used in doing cave mapping... tough, durable, can handle mud and wet, easy to use even in the dark...

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 16:11:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.236)

I'm buying a 308 for deer; I've more or less decided on the Steyr Prohunter. What are the arguments between heavy or light barrel?

I decided against US rifles (eg Remington)because all my reading seems to indicate that they require some degree of gunsmithing out-of-the-box. I wouldn't buy a new car if it had to go straight to a mechanic before I could use it -why do you accept this for your rifles? (or am I wrong?)(I might otherwise have chosen a Fluted Varmint Synthetic).

Finally, having read the Hot Tips and Cold Shots section on'Magnus Effect' and 'Drift' may I bore you with my (extremely long range and very big bullet!) knowledge of the area:

Magnus Effect / Drift: Talking in artillery terms; we gunners are aware of (but ignore) the Magnus Force that is created by a spinning object passing through air. Magnus Force is a minor effect compared to 'drift'. Drift is caused by the pressure of the air flow on the nose of a shell. A properly stabilised shell will always be slightly 'nose up' to the air flow (because the trajectory always falls away from its angle of departure). If you remember your physics you may recall that weird law of gyroscopes (of which a shell (or bullet!) is an extremely powerful example)that means that if you try to push it one way, it actually moves at right angles to the force. The shell is slightly nose up, therefore the air pressure tries to lift the nose. Because the shell is a gyroscope, this lifting force actually (for a clockwise spinning shell) moves the shells nose to the right. Other movements occur, too many to detail here, but the net effect is that the shell assumes an average position of the nose being high and right to the air flow. Being 'high and right' means that more air pressure builds on the left of the shell; this pushes the shell to the right. The effect, obviously, increases with range.

Very Interesting Site!
Matt

Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 16:17:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.35)

Matt; A friend I hunt with a lot and test with purchased a Pro Hunter a while back and we tested it fairly conclusively but didn't carry it in the field much. There was nothing we wanted to trash about it. It was a nice lightweight hunting firearm with a workable clip system. Another good friend has that rifle now. The accuracy was a shade better than most American Hunting rifles out of the box and the size is particularly handy. However, a Remington 700 with flutted barrel two of them in fact proved better in the accuracy department. You have not made a bad choice there but even the europeans can't make a light barrel shoot like a heavier one. Personally I wouldn't carry a PSS or Sendero in .308 hunting because of the weight. My 22" .308 flutted 700 Varminter is about all I'm going to pack hunting or running, stalking, or anything but heavy target shooting. You will like the Pro Hunter I believe. I used the 700 on a one shot deer hunt this fall so I got to carry a lot more than shoot. But it was no trouble in very rugged country to pack along and the accuracy was appreciated.
bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 17:00:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Leslie...
The M2 isn't plastic... I've got two, and they're both aluminum, and you can get them in mils or degrees... I have one in mils and one in degrees.
There is a plastic model, but it's not the M2, or the "6008" (the commercial model of the M2).

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 17:36:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60)

THere is nothing wrong with an off the shelf Remington. I zeroed a VSSF for a customer one day and it held 1/2 moa with 168 federal no problem. Trigger was set kind of high for some people who like their trigger weight in oz's. Most people who rework the death out of off the shelf Remingtons are the same ones that buy a computer and spend hundreds of bucks getting the last meghertz of speed out of it or who buy a new car and put in in the shop for custom work. We're Americans damn it!! We are never happy with anything!!

Leslie, not all scopes are set for mil dots at max power. I believe some Leupolds with variable magnification capabities higher than 10X are set up around 12X or so and have a little dot on the power ring to mark it.

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 18:22:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.146)

Gunners !

I am planing a FTX for next weekend, any good ideas what to do in shit weather ! We will make some regular sniper stuff / ranges, sketches, stalk, radiowork, plus some of the following: shelter, food, water, fire. have three days to fill and about 35 reserves to keep busy.

Hey, even Stefan is gonna turn out with two of his Dutch buddies !

Torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
g3ermany - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 19:10:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.198)

Pablito:
The M2 that I had in mils was olive-drab plastic. I broke the hinge on it, so Brunton replaced it with another M2, also olive drab plastic. The civilian versions that I was used to back as an undergraduate were aluminum ones. So when I broke the hinge on the second plastic one, I requested aluminum for a replacement (went with degrees instead). Now days they have plastic and aluminum ones, both beige, for civilian use, the olive drab ones for the military. Being an 0311 and not in art'y, I never used an M2 as intended... I had only seen the plastic ones, didn't know that the green ones were available in aluminum, too... Glad to here it, tho'.... I really have a lot more confidence in the aluminum ones over the plastic ones.

I gotta say, although I love it, I wouldn't pick it for use in general orienteering, or for use for slope measurement for shooting. Too heavy for general hiking, too wieldy for shooting, and too pricey (unless you're rich, or it is a job-specific tool as it is for me). I'd go with Silva for most uses... a lot of my friends use a Silva with an inclinometer instead of a Brunton anymore, anyway.

Gooch:
Was unaware that Leupold made scopes with the dots set to a power other than max... I figured it could be ordered as such, but I can't say that I had ever really put any thought into it. Thanks for the correction....
Hey! This now brings up a question.......
I pulled out a Leupold Tactical brochure and I'm looking at the back page of it, and it has a 'reticle subtension' chart. For the mil-dots on the MarkIVs, it lists them all as 10.6mm regardless of power (10x or 16x), but it lists the Vari-X IIIs at 13mm for the 10x setting and 38mm for the 3.5x setting; and 11mm for the 14-x setting and 34mm for the 4.5x setting, for the other scope. Now, the chart neglects to state at what distance these figures are given for... am I right to assume 100 yards?
Also, since the 3.5-10x is given at 13mm instead of 10x, is that a reflection of the fact that the 10x is really 9.7x? Or is it that it's just slightly off of a standard mil-dot spacing?

Now, a more important question as far as I'm concerned: my Tactical is mil-dotless... I know I could ante up and have them installed, but I decided to instead leave this one alone and once fortunes allow buy a 3.5-10x40mm M3 LR with mil-dots... let this one be more oriented towards hunting and the mil-dot for sniping (well, for sniping practicing). This chart gives, however, the subtentions for the duplex recticle itself.... I want to make sure that what the chart is referring to is what I'm referring to...

On the chart for the 10x setting of the 3.5-10x Vari-X III, it states that the heavy section is 19mm (.7in), the thin section is 6mm (.2in), and that the thin opening is 15cm (5.5in). I think this I've got this right, but to make sure and not assume: is it saying that the heavy section of the duplex would be covering 19mm high at 100 yards? And that the thin part of the recticle would be covering 6mm? And that the gap between the heavy parts of the recticle, i.e. the entire width or height of the thin part of the recticle, is covering 15cm? Right?

Now, as a check... if it is covering 15cm, ie., 5.5 inches at 100 yards, then it is going to cover 11 inches at 200 yards... BUT, the manual that came with the scope says that 1/2 of the thin recticle, i.e. from the center of the crosshairs to the point where the thin part of the recticle meets the think part, will cover ~16 inches at 200 yards. So it doesn't match.... Where am I confused???? What do I mis-understand????

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 19:22:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.179)

Oops: In that last bit I wrote:
"Also, since the 3.5-10x is given at 13mm instead of 10x, is that a reflection of the fact that the 10x is really 9.7x?"

Should have said:
"Also, since the 3.5-10x is given at 13mm instead of 10.6mm, is that a reflection of the fact that the 10x is really 9.7x?"

-L

Leslie <see@above.com>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 19:32:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.179)

Torsten: I checked with a local sheep-herder and he can supply us with about 20 sheep. This should keep all of us busy AND warm over the entire weekend. I tried to locate both Darrell and Al through mail, but they both do not respond. Any more takers exept us 3 Dutch farm-boys and 35 horny Germans?

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 21:14:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.192.180)

Spin Drift,

Now thats an interesting idea for accurate long range shooting.......

anybody else?

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 21:14:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.59)

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MMMMMMMOOOOOOORRRRRREEEEEE SSPPPPIINNNNDRRRRRIIIFFFFFTTTTT, AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Answer question on why and how you use a drag bag first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 23:17:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.15)

Does anyone know who does the best detachable box magazine conversion for a long action Remington? I have heard that HS precision and Robar do this kind of work but have not been able to find any information about it.I need something thats going to be field durable and reliable.Appreciate any input.
Thanks,
Don

Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 23:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.34)

Yoooooooou DRaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg iiiiiiiiiiTTTT!!

Is there Spin Drift in "West 'By Gawd' Virginy", or is it "Sheep drift".

Inquiring minds want to know???

'lito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 23:35:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.45)

Spin Drift: A long time ago I put that I was taught to add for spin drift past 600 yards. Since Master Gooch beat me up over this I have played with it many times and have to say. DONT BOTHER! Just worry about the wind. Hats off to Gooch

Pete, thanks for the info on the 300mag.

US Made Rifles being less capable than others: Sorry dude, wake up and smell the coffee. US Weapons kick butt on the foreign stuff. Take 2000.00 and put into US Products and Kick Butt on any Foreign Rifles. I have tried the Sig and Blaser Target Rifles they call sniper rifles. My NorCal, HS Precision, McBros and George Gardner rifles will make them look like slingshots anyday for a whole lot less money.

Pablito, a man of few but true words. "You drag it" LOL

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, January 16, 2000 at 23:49:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.22)

Have hard enough time dragging my fat ass, don't need no mo stinkin weight. LOL

Watching SEAL team special on discovery channel. I ont's me one of them thar M60's.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 00:00:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.15)

Matt,

Don't think that US made rifles must be smithed to be accurate. I have a new Remington 700 P-DM in .308. The gun is much more accurate than I am. After breaking it in real good and proper, it averages .444" @ 100 yards. Best groups that day hung around .227". Add to this the fact that I was using left over .300 Win Mag components, the gun was pushing out 190 gr Sierras and grouping them nicely. I just got some burgers in 168 and they go to the range next, I can e-mail you the test data from them if you like. Bottom line is this: I am very satisfied with my Remington. I'm going to lighten the trigger myself and be done with it. Down the road I might cut some of the freebore out of it, but when the gun is shooting this well out of the box, I hate to do anything to it. Rethink that Pro Hunter thing!

Ralph
Ralph <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 01:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.104.31)

Bolt: you mean one of those "special" M-60's that you can see the bullet going down the barrel in? Whadda marroon, that "expert" (The guy on the discovery channel says you can heat a M-60A3 barrel up enough you can WATCH bullets crank out). Now, when they come up with steel that turns transparent when it heats up, and we can "sharpen" our eyes so that we can see something that happens in less than a sixtieth of a second, THEN we can have some real entertainment! Until then, I have to make due with "cheap shots" at Discovery channel narrators. By the way, I would love to have one in the safe too.

And please, no more spin drift. I learned my lesson the last time. Seems I had to down some beer and run in circles with a close up view of the "Louisville Slugger" emblem on a stationary baseball bat, and then run towards a tree. Sure enough, as Gooch said, I did notice the puke "spun" as I ran. The only good part I learned was that I can hold out puking while repeating the Marine Creed until the part that goes "I will. (puke)".

Drag bags: The large tool kit (bag-o-tools) I put the "real necessary" stuff in before headed to the drag strip? I may not be a sniper, but good luck catching me (or leading a 160+MPH car) :-)
Really though, I would appreciate some "know how" on the in's and out's of a drag bag (beyond "you drag it")......
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
scope swappin in, Utah, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 01:27:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.139)

ALL,
This newbie was accepted at the range by the precision shooters when I showed up with my new gear purchased from your combined advise and experience. One guy even thought my SS10X42 was a MKIV! Thanks!
So...to pay you guys back, this is my Stupid Newbie story.

Newbie goes to range with new gear and understands quickly why the rifle butt is held firmly against shoulder. Being resourceful, Newbie swipes pantyliners from wife to use as a shoulder pad. They have double adhesive that sticks to skin under a T-shirt and smell good too! After next range visit, Newbie tosses female hygene product into the back seat of the car and forgets about them. The next day, wife borrows car for shopping and discovers female hygene accessories. For you married guys, I don't have to explain the fear factor involved when confronted by wife holding a very incriminating piece of evidence in her hand, and the first thing out of her mouth is "Would you like to explain..."
Central Florida <R356C@AOL.COM>
Central, Florida, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 02:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.53)

Been a while since I posted. 6+ weeks of 16-18 hour days leaves little time for shooting... or anything else. Lurked here now and again anyhow. Really glad to see the experts back to arguing spin drift, optics, and such... Oh and of course Bolt is *still* asking about Drag Bags. :-) A nice turn from December's MasterKarateKiller Country.

As for American weapons requiring smithing out of the box.... I can only pass an annecdotal opinion on my latest aquisition. I have a Winchester Model 70 heavy barrel and out of the box it truly was a pretty fine shooter. It was far from the best but it was certainly quite accurate and could outshoot most shooters (though probably not all readers of this site for sure).

I did have Jerry Rice of Nor Cal Precision do a trigger and a bedding job on it and the groups did tighten up nicely but most people get this sort of thing done anyhow.

Speaking of Nor-Cal Precision I just posted some new brand photos of some of his rifles on his site if anyone is interested.

Looks like I am going to get into reloading soon, This will help keep me from going broke :-) Anyone have suggestions on a (probably)non-electronic reloading scale? Not sure what features/brands to consider. Mail me offline.

JT - you know that web guy... <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 02:46:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

I am a high school senior who has enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. I have enlisted as an 0311, but plan to transfer to special forces after 2 years in infantry. I would be greatful for any info that i could get on how to train, prepare, equip, and educate myself in this trade of sniping. Thank you.
Zachary Metcalf <zmet28@hotmail.com>
Chappell, NE, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 02:59:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.177.20.12)

Anyone have a source for the new Swarovski 8.5 x 42mm "EL" binoculars for under $1200? I've been to about half a dozen birding and hunting/sporting boards, and most are pefectly willing to charge full retail for these glasses (between 1250 and 1350). Thanks.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 03:24:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

For Bad Karma- Reactive targets:
One of the best things I have found are 2 liter soda bottles, my friends and I save our soda bottles 20 oz. , 1 liter , and 2 liter we fill them with water and set them out at various distances.In the winter we let them set out overnight so they freeze. You want reaction , when you slam a frozen bottle , man do they explode!(Note; where we shoot we have our own private range, nobody to whine. We all walk the area after, to clean up even the smallest pieces of plastic.)At this time in our area we do not have deposit fees or mandatory recycling on all plactic soda bottles. If your state has these policies this could become expensive. Keep 'em in the X-ring, Tim
Tim <tpatrick@epix.net>
PA, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 03:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.224.95.69)

OK, I'll work on my $0.02 worth about a few things. Current mil issue compasses "foul-up" frequently !! Even M-2's... so carry a spare or two. Still have an older model "Ainsworth" pocket transit and it does its stuff, Just recently had a buddy "DX" 2 NEW tritium compasses that stuck too #$%^ much. Silva / Brunton / Suunto all are good compasses.

Next. Drag bags, just that...more drag. Makes you look cool coming and going from range. To me, leaves to much of a trace and I have enough of a time trying to lose my own trail ! Unless you are woried, really worried about the rifles finish and dings on the barrel, just place a finger cot over the barrel, have a good sling, have scope covers on the ends of the scope and drag it as a rifle should be : CLOSE AT HAND !! Then again...I am not currently active duty or LE...SO, WTF do I know ??!!

More thoughts on multi-season cover ... If you are using a "Wookie" suit then the most logical choice is to make or have two suits. If you have gotten wiser (as I think I'm supposed to) then you could make a reversible cape/cover. Not as difficult as it sounds and far less bulky than the Wookie. Its amazing how creative you can be when the budget is tight...have all sorts of odds and ends of "Former" issue stuff and all I have to do is make it work !!
Speaking of "stuff" one of the new additions to SC mentions a place/site called "Barracuda". I have in my grimy paws a personal screen made by them and it came to me in the original packing. Now if I can just get my hands on a "thermal imager" and some other items to see if it really works. A bit darker in coloration than will work down here unless you are in some good pine thickets but ....

Last ... This is for all who reload, what are the recommendations for an electronic measuring scale ?? Have a BBK but its on its last legs and I sure don't want to go back to my old 5-10 balance beam unless I really have to. Am looking in the $150-175 price range. ANY help or ideas ?? THanks and does anyone use VV 540 ? just got half a can for helping a shooter and have never used it. Will be shooting 168 & 175 Moly Sierras.
OUT HERE
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 03:41:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.116)

All,

Thanks to all that have helped me on SC. I hope that in some way I was of some assistance as well.

One of the things that has been a thorn in my side is that a lot of ranges will not let me set up my chronograph. I will eventually, I plan to try out all of my best loads then determine the SD. I read in a book that bullets in flight can vibrate out to about 125m then "settle" in. I think this is true because I have had 200m groups tighter than my 100m groups. Strange aint it?
The main goal that I have right now is to find THE most consistantly accurate load that I can go out and buy 1000 projectiles, primers and enough powder to send them on their merry way. Economically it is the best choice for me since the M700 is used ONLY for precision shooing anyway. On the other hand my hunting rifles need to be a lot more versitle since the type of game and terrain changes contantly. I love my 9.3x62mm Mauser, kicks like hell but does a nice job.

The Sierra 165gr HPBT Game King is a nasty little suprise when sent on its way. They seem to like the same charges the 168s do.

Was anyone in 2/3 Weapons company between 1989-1993? Any 0341s out there? Any LE from MS? Hinds County area to be specific. I think I am going to reload for a while.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 03:42:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.182)

RE: Swarovskis
Dave,

Before laying down that much moolah, check out some of the multi-page ads in the back of some of the photography mags, such as "Popular Photography." Some of those camera retailers have binocs and move so much stuff, their prices are near wholesale. I think you should support local dealers if possible and have that rapport and support, but I bought a Nikon camera out of NY for $200 cheaper than I could have bought it here. I don't support my locals THAT much...

BTW-Had a set of Swarovskis-best glass I've ever looked through, except MAYBE Leica and Zeiss.
David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 03:51:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.255.136.165)

For those interested in Mil dots go to the Leupold page and under technical specifications I believe it is you will find the Formula and all kinds of charts. The same ones that come with the scopes. \
Didn't know about the scopes Gooch is talking about either. But you can use different formula to compute the mathmatics for different powers if you want. Usually you need the higher power settings for the accuracy and resolution to obtain it.
Florida; that is what is known as a tactical mistake. Good thinking though. I wouldn't have been able to think of that on the spur of the moment. Most important thing is if she bought it?

Bill <brogers@elkart.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 05:18:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Rifle's,

Modern rifle's,wether they are American,japanise or German or Finnish,when mounted with a good match grade barrel should all be comparable in Accuracy.Were the diffirence lay's,is what feature's the Manufactorer decide's are impotant,ie 90 or 60 degree bolt lift, detachable or fixed magazine,and lenght of box magazine(determine's the max length you can hand load too).

I Have owned and used various rifle's,including Rem's and Winchester's,Sako's ,Mauser's etc,for sporting rifle's,the 3 maker's that will get my future buisness,are Sako,Tikka and Howa.
Those 3 are the only one's that impress me any more,as good weapon's.

As far as Tactical rifle's go,I have looked at most,and handled and shot the 2 rifle's I consider the top 2 SWS currently available.
The Accuracy International serie's of rifle's and Sako's TRG serie's,AI's 1st rifle adopted by UK as L96A1,was their 1st gen rifle,wasn't purchased by anyone,the Product Improved L96A1 called the AW(Artic Warfare) model was brought by most Armie's of the World,this model is their 2nd gen rifle.
Sako seem's to have missed the boat,a day late and a dollar short,timing.The Sako serie's are now moving too their 2nd gen rifle serie's,the TRG-22/42.The Sako and AI gun's are very similar in raw spec's,10-shot mag's,60 degree lift,aluminium frame's etc.

The main selling point of the TRG serie's is as similar to the AW as it is,the price is 1/2 that of the British gun,I believe the AW is selling for twice the price it is really worth.

The Rem based M-24 has only been sold to a few countrie's,Israel and Eygpt,both heavily involved with US, given free or cheap.

Call me old fashioned,I do not care where a weapon is made,only with function and price.

For my money $1500-2000USD,it's a TRG-21/41 or TRG-22/42,there is nothing else remotely close,just my opinion of course.
If you have not heard or seen the TRG serie's,check them out,see one in the flesh and then decide,you may even like it.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 08:05:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.214)

Stefan,

I have been listening to my "Ramstein" (Lemay knows who)and "Matrix" soundtracks and should be in a real good mood next weekend. Bring some kneepads, ´cause thats were you´ll be most of the weekend !

Got some other good ideas for the FTX , thanks guy´s.

Torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
g3ermany - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 09:41:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.228)

Torsten:
Good to see that the former DDR's contribution to industrial techno-metal is appreciated. Training notes: I do not know how big you are into IAD's, but you really cannot do them to many times. A truly refined break contact drill with all the bells and whistles is a joy to behold.
Ed <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
Ft Drum, NY, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 15:56:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.154.15.49)

A student had a variable power Leupold at SMTC that was marked at 12x for the mil dots. Dont remember the model specifics.

Hey guys. Just thought I would let you know I found a bunch of folks on the internet that are more anal retentive than we are. Its the IDPA onelist. I posed a question on there a couple of days ago and got instant heat! Pretty cool.

Out here.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 18:08:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)

Thanks to Bill, Gooch and Ralph for such speedy responses to my US rifle out-of-the-box question; you've certainly given me pause for thought.
I failed to click the nationality box, so you probably didn't realise that I'm a Brit.
You're probably aware that the UK's gun laws are among the most restrictive in the world, as a result rifle shooting experience is a comparitively rare commodity over here.

To try another slant on my question:

Is 1/2 MOA out-of-the-box from a VSSF unusual or the norm?

Does any of your experience show that Steyr rifles require out-of-the-box gunsmithing?

Matt

PS Can't contribute much on rifles, but can bore you to death on any artillery questions!
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 18:46:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.35)

It bears repeating, mayhaps, that a darn fine place to check for darn fine prices on optics such as binos and spotting scopes is Eagle Optics (intitial endorsement courtesy of Mr. 'Lito). No, I don't work for them. Yes, they have a website: http://store.yahoo.com/eagleoptics/index.html

And you owe it to yourself to check the Fujinon Super 80 spotter, and the Fujinon 7x50 binos. If you buy something, you will owe it (money) to Eagle, ha ha. The 7x50s are a bigger set of glasses, for those of you in the market for such.

No, I don't work for Fujinon. Yes, I am done now.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.ent>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 18:59:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

Matt; with good Ammo like Sierra Match kings 44 gr. varget or thereabouts the VSSF is pretty commonly experiencing .5 MOA.
The Steyr doesn't lend itself to much gunsmithing as a matter of neccessity. You are aware that the barrels are pressed into the action and have to be changed mostly at the factory. Or at least that's the way they have been. I might say that the magazine length is long enough to allow better seating than the factory Remingtons as far as seating near the lands. There was a bit of overtravel in the trigger system which I didn't care for but it was not a problem.
A factory Remington is likely to be worse but can be adjusted. There are instructions somewhere around here for that. probably in Archives Pablito' and I have both posted some in the past. His are probably clearer as he is a better writer than me.
Bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 19:46:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

On this sight I read the reasons why serious shooters moved from the 30-06 to the .308. Will the 300 Win.Mag shoot loose groups like the 30-06 did? I'll be buying either the .308 or 300, and would like to know the strengths of each. I especially like the way Your sight appeals to a mature, serious audience. There are way too many sights that seem to glorify violence, instead of recognising what the Military and Police do.
Robert <nail@theradioranch.com>
Weatherford, Texas, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 21:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.138.226.218)

Robert, IMHO and from my learnings here, shoulder banging experience and owning all three of the major 30's.........
The 308 is easy on the shoulder, cheap to shoot, and damned accurate.
The 30-06 is not as easy on the shoulder, more expensive and can be just as accurate accurate as the 308.
The 300 hurts the shoulder after shooting all day, is damn expensive to shoot, and is just as accurate as the 308 especially at longer ranges.
Accuracy of the higher calibers is a factor of many things. Ability to shoot the round comfortably and the tube it is comming out of are in my mind the most important. I have Sendero's in 308, 7mag and 300 mag. My accuracy is more consistant with the 308 and gets progressively worse, the more rounds I shoot, with the 7 and the 300 due to more shoulder pounding per round. I don't know if my accuracy would improve with a $5000 Accuracy International but I would love to find out.

I'm not sure about the 'glorifying violence' statement though. I here there are still some sheepies up in By Gawd that have a class action molestation suit against Al O.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 22:22:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.146.68)

Bolt,
The boss has a 308 Accuracy Intl.It does shoot,WELL.Smooth action,but a tuned PSS will shoot just as well.I just couldn,t justify the 4 g,s for it.We went to the range after he got it,out to 300 m he barely had an edge,past that I ate his lunch out to 700 m.That was as far as we shot.He was ready to pack it up.The Schmidt & Bender ballistic cam is dead on.It is a real bear to zero and reset the knobs to zero,I think it was dreamt up by some egghead with WAY too much time on his hands.
Robert,
Had a heavy bbl 700 in 308,30-06& 300 Win,got rid of the '06,the 308 will do the same thing it would,and a little more efficient.
outta here.
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Monday, January 17, 2000 at 22:55:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.2.182)

Gooch - Leuopold scope:

I might have been the student you're referring to. My Leuopold is a 4.5 x 14 x 50 LR tactical. The book says to use max magnification for accurate mildot measurements. However - I have to align that white dot with the X on the 14X setting. There is alittle bit of zoom ring adjustment left after the 14X - which is where I got into trouble. I had assumed that I could just crank the zoom ring to the stopping point - and there is max power and the proper place to mil targets.

Ken

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
NOkesville, VA, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 01:20:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.60)

I noticed some talk lately on high performance/magnum calibers. These calibers do have advantages in trajectory and wind deflection, but there is a cost to pay for these advantages. The military have some good reasons for using the 308. Barrel wear out is related cartage efficiency. 308 barrels can shoot well after 6000 or more rounds while 300 win mag start to lose accuracy between 1000 and 2000 rounds. The 308 burns very efficiently. It is not uncommon for a 308 to still shoot good after firing 100 rounds with out cleaning. Mag caliber’s are lucky to get 20 rounds in a row off before accuracy starts to drop. A 308-barrel will clean up easy after shooting 100 rounds. It may take weeks to get a 300-win mag clean after shooting 100 rounds. Magnum calibers do have an advantage in the tactical matches that are becoming popular. If you make a small mistake in range or wind speed/direction you will still make the shot at much longer ranges than the 308. There is no room for mistakes past 500 meter with the 308. If your are thinking these magnum caliber’s are going make you shoot better you are very wrong. Magnums are hard to shoot well. If you are finishing 3rd place in you matches with your 308 then maybe a magnum will give you the small edge needed to win. If you are finishing 15th to 20th out of 30 in matches the magnums are not going to help you. Your time will be better spent practicing ranging and reading wind with a 308 than spending your time cleaning/replacing the barrel or buying powder for you magnum.

Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 01:44:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.157.171)

I have to second Chris and his support of the Sako TRG-21. I've owned a very large number of highend rifles, both tactical and otherwise, and the Sako TRG series beats them all hands down. Bias? Yep, cuz I spent substantial money on one and am TOTALLY satisfied with the performance, consistancy, and workmanship. I've shot nearly all the different tactical guns out there and their variations, with a couple of exceptions (Mauser 86, AI .50 or .338, and a couple more), and to me the ergonomics, functioning, attention to detail, and the accuracy made this an easy choice. Hopefully my next will be either a TRG-41 or 42. Savin' the baht baby! If you ever get the chance, try one out. At least get your beaters on one and handle it...look it over.
The gun just plain performs. Period. JMHOO.

Cheers All,
Mike
Mike A. <moamike@ix.netcom.com>
RainyChillyWindy, Washington, USofbygodA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 02:07:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.31.44.183)

I'm looking for a good wind bucking load for my 700VS in .308W. to shoot 1000yd. prone matches. I've tried the 175MK and the 178NM at 2600fps. Any good 190MK loads out there! I just shimmed my rear Lpd. scope mount 40 thousands and now my 6.5x20 LRT reaches 1200yds and holds a 100yd zero (I gained 30MOA). Since tapered shims were not available, I bedded the rings with JB Weld and it works great! I also just bedded my Colt HBAR upper and lower, with JB, for Service Rifle. What a difference! JB Weld is great stuff. Any 1000yd load data out there!
mike strunk <strunk@blazenet.net>
Cogan Station, Pa, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 02:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.104.63.241)

Gentlemen, this one comes up fairly often. Here's a good link for camouflaging your rifle and telescope!

http://www.varminthunters.com/bbs/messages/488.html
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 02:21:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Anyone ever heard of using automatic transmission fluid for weapon lube?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 03:01:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.146.68)

Bolt,
there was a guy here in middle TN that used a mix of Dextron 3,a little hydraulic fluid and a tiny bit of CLP, it stayed mixed real well.Don't know what the mix ratio was but it was a heck of a lube.it really doesn't get cold enough here to see if it would slow a gas gun down,I switched to a lite grease for my 2 gas guns after I had tried it for a little bit.
AIRBORNE!!
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 03:46:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.254.250)

Mike Strunk,

I tried the 190s and had little luck. I think that they are best in a 30'06 or bigger. I like the 168s and 175s for long range stuff. Here are a few loads that might get you started.

175gr Sierra HPBT/MK

1st load: 41.5gr IMR-4064 F210GM primer
2nd load: 43.0gr Varget same primer

168gr Sierra HPBT/MK

1st load: 41.4gr- 42.5gr IMR-4064 F210GM primer
2nd load: 43.0gr Varget same primer
3rd load: 46.0gr WW-748 F215 or F215GM primer

The WW-748 load gives the highest velocity about 2800 out of my 24" Douglas barrel. It is also by the way one of the most accurate loads I have ever tested in my rifle. Average group is arount .258" and can be a lot less. The 2nd load for the 175 shot five shots in .168" at 100m, nice. Don't forget to load tune your stuff. I usually will load 5 rounds starting about 2gr below suggested most accurate and increase the charge by .5gr to see how it reacts.
Just to demonstrate I was shooting a bunch of 155 Palma Sierras using Varget. I started around 41.5 and when I got to 43.0 my groups were as tight as I ever could hope for. Then I tried 43.5. The groups went from .347" to 1.114"! Just a half grain made that much difference. So I tried working all the way up to 45.0gr. The groups opened and closed all the way up but never out shooting the 43.0gr load. Wierd.

All,

Thanks to all the kind information about the "Mudville" matches. All who helped me, thanks a million. The thing I like best about this site is the comaraderie show towards each other.

Does or did anyone know a Marine SSgt Dewane Sigmann AKA SSgt Eagle Eye? He was an instructor at Quantico. He was my section leader in the Corps. I can't say enough kudos for that man. He was a Marine's Marine and a stickler for troop welfare and morale.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 03:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.71)

Will,

About electronic scales. Try Midway USA. They can't be beat all prices include shipping. I get all my stuff through them. They have everything Lapua, Berger, HS Precision tactical stocks, and the list goes on and on. They got some grat buys on electronic scales. They even got electronic powder throwers that measures it all out for you, all you have to do is push a button. They are on the web www.midwayusa.com

Torsten,

I understand that Sierra makes a 200gr MK for the 8mm .323". Can you shed light on this? I know the 8x57JS is still very popular over in Germany. Especially in doubles. How do the laws work over there for reloaders?
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 04:11:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.71)

Torsten,Stefan,

Hi guy's do either of you have any adresse's or website's for European Dealer's in Optic's,Gun's and Military clothing etc,

Mainly after a good cheap dealer's in European Optic's,both rifle scope's and Bino's.

Have used the steiner mil serie's,in both 6x30 and 7x50 with the graticle,and find them both to be good,usually I signed out the small set,6x30 when on exercise,and shorten the stap around neck and they tucked them down the front of my smock,no case,just unzip jacket a small way and they can be used.When the Q were out of 6x30's,I had too take the larger 7x50's,so being already over loaded with gear,decided to unscrew the bino's and take the half with the graticle and leave the rest behind,very compact and they fitted into a spare ammo pouch,cool.
I see the steiner serie's going cheap in Europe,I think they are 2nd hand,ex army.

Also interested in the Carl Zeiss Jena EDF 7x40 DDR bino's,
Have you guy's any comment's on the above mentioned bino's?

Thanks in Advance, Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 04:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.165)

Just used the new M118LR this weekend. Great ammo.
Nice improvement from M118SB. This stuff is Match Grade.

Also had a chance to use the new AN/PVS-10 SNS.
In a word,
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 05:12:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.186.125.26)

one more try

In a word, "SWEET".
This is the next gen night sight that is replacing the Simrad. This is not a slipover item but a complete new combination day/night sight. It worked just great with varying light levels at night. Clear image like a gen 3 NOD(maybe better).

From what I can remember:
8.5 times magnification
800m effective range, day
600m effective range, night
variable image illumination
variable reticle illumination
4.5 lbs.
built-in scope base attachments
.5 MOA difference between day and night zero

I don't know if I will be able to practice my wind calls on prairie dogs, but I hope to try it on some coyotes.
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 05:23:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.186.125.26)

In response to Torsten : Land Nav, Night Land Nav and more Land Nav without GPS devices !!!!

Thanks to all who responded about the scales problem , looks like I will be sending the BBK back to Pact and they will repair for either no charge or very slight impact to my wallet !

Need some assistance from the current Active Duty mil people ... I need the NSN or NSSN for the repair bag for the desert camo netting/screen... actually I need a full bag !!! heh heh heh Any help ??
OUT HERE
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 13:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.131.172)

Female snipers in Chechenya.

Russian special forces are supposed to have captured a female sniper in Ch. She's a 27 year old Ukrainean citizen called Jelena alias "Lolita". In the 94/96-conflict she was credited with 20 kills against the russian army. How many kills she have in this war is not known. Jelena, a former biathlon compeditor, is supposed to be a member of a mythical female sniper-unit. Female snipers from several former SU-states are offering their services to the rebells. Most of them from the baltic states with biathlon background. There's a small picture of a female sniper on this page:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/d119069.htm

If you don't know how to read norwegian you might want to take a look at Izvestija's website in cyrillc russian :-) ( If you have any swedish or norwegian blonds near you, get them to translate...)

TorF
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 13:55:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

Removing barrel from Remington PSS.

Remington will not sell a shop manual for the PSS.

What is the technique for removal and then replacement of the barrel as far as the proper torque, and where can I get the best price on a torque wrench that I need.

Second, if I remove the barrel and replace it with the proper torque, should there be any change in zero?

One idea I am considering is how feasible it is to buy a second barrel, have it threaded, and then use a Gemtech TPRS suppressor and use the weapon unsuppressed, and then when I want it suppressed to replace the barrel. Is there any downside to taking the barrel in and out over and over again? Buying an extra barrel and having the suppressor mounted on it is a lot less expensive than 2 weapons.

Any thoughts, comments or experience with the TPRS suppessor particularly in long range shooting is appreciated.

Respectfully,
Robert
Robert S. Tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
Conway, AR, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 15:58:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.47)

Torsten

With that Ramstein ROCKEN them sheep will be a rocking!!!!!!!!!!!

On the Rem 700 VSS out of the box. I've ben shooting one for about and 1 1/2 years now. It shoots great! The only thing that I've done to it was put it URAS stock. Works for me at the matches. I think its the guy behind the gun not the gun.

"I think the most important step toward becoming a great shooter is mastering the fundamentals of marksmanship. After this you must put maximum effort on mental training and conditioning. And shoot shoot shoot.

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Michigan, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 16:16:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

Mildot Master: HELP.....HELP.....

How do you use the bullet drop and wind drift on the Mildot Master?

Darren...
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 16:50:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.33)

Undude,
I used 68 to 70grs of IMR4350 with my 300WM. I got a load of 68.5grs from a 1000yd shooter for the 190s and this load really shot well in all 3 of the 300WMs I had. I tried RL-22 and it worked well also but still liked 4350. The H-1000 kicked the snot out of me and shook filling loose.(HA)

Robert,
Forget what your trying to do and spend a few hundred more and have another barrel made. The factory barrels are put on DAMN tight and ment to stay that way. A switch barrel rifle is made to lock up with very little pressure on the barrel or threads. You would also need to pin your recoil lug and have your smith put "Timing" marks on both barrels so you will know how far to tighten the barrel. Then you will have to have a barrel vice and bushings for each barrel and an action wrench. I have been there and done that and finally settled on the calibre that I liked best and shot the most. Good Luck!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmial.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 17:13:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Matt, most of the guys covered the Remington out of the box accuracy issue but since I have not been able to follow the roster since last week, I'll toss in my two cents.

Remgintons' almost never NEED tweaking. Most of us do it because, being totally into extreme accuracy potentials, we think by doing so we may get a little more out of the rifle. We are OPTIMISTS and convince ourselves that doing this extra work will make them even MORE accurate. Some times it does. Sometimes it only increase the concentricity of the group, but with out a decrease in size. Every stock un-dicked with Remington I own will shoot sub moa, including the cheapo Model 78 Sportsman I bought for $249 back when that model was still an option. It had a standard contour hunting barrel, like a typical ADL or BDL. Most guys can leave them alone, use high grade or hand loaded ammunition and get excellent results that often match custom high dollar rifles for three times the price. Anyway, all of the Remington rifles I have modified, ALREADY shot sub moa before the mods. I would often do the trigger, or recrown the muzzle, in an attempt to get even better accuracy, but in terms of over the counter accuracy, they were actually pretty impressive as is. To illustrate:

My 22-250cal. M700VS shot a typical .4" moa groups with my hand loads. It didn't NEED work, but I wanted a 3 pound trigger to spent a little extra for that. Then, following the formula, I said what the heck and had the crown done too. Accuracy is now .3 to .4 moa. No big difference but once you get down below .5 moa you have to pay the big bucks to get any better anyway. So…point is, over the shelf, the Remingtons are an excellent value when you compare them for rifles costing $1000s more but giving little more than .5 moa accuracy.

Anyway, since you are talking about DEER hunting…the point is a bit moot. Minute of Deer works as well as minute of angle. It makes little sense to hump a heavy varmint barrel in the woods in search for deer alone. Unless you clip the barrel to about 20" or 22" to help balance the thing out better. OR unless it is the ONLY rifle you can buy. A 700 VS with the tube cut to 22" would be a nicely balanced rifle compared to the 26" barrel, and work well for deer. BUT, frankly, you can get acceptable accuracy out of a standard contour barrel. More accuracy than is necessary to hit the 10" kill zone on said animal.

A typical 700 will shoot into about .9 to 1.25 inches with over the counter ammo. More than sufficient for your purpose. The same rifle using match grade ammo or handloads will typically shoot into .75 to .9 moa. Maybe better if you are a skilled hand loader and have experimented enough to wring out the last bit of the rifles potential. Still, why bother? Since of your original statement was hat this rifle is going to be for deer hunting I'd say get the standard weight barrel. It can be as accurate as a heavy barrel! My 78 would shoot .5 moa with M852 match ammo, but that is hardly a hunting load.

Often your RATE of fire will control the accuracy potential of a thin barrel. A heavy barrel is not necessarily more accurate. But it is stiffer and it does heat up slower. Since you will not be shooting 25 rounds in a matter of minutes, you can see very good results from the typical hunting rifle today. As an example: Using my old M78 Sportsman, I would slow fire one round every two minutes. The five shot average was .7 moa with hunting loads! Out of a thin hunting barrrel. Now, when I sped things up drastically, I would see the groups open up as the barrel became very hot to the touch. BUT that is not representative of HUNTING. So, don't feel you need to strap yourself with a 13 pound rifle for deer. Accuracy is a relative thing. A 1 minute gun is great for deer. A ¾ minute gun is great for sniping and a .2 minute gun is awesome for benchrest competition, but no one gun will do all three well.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 18:03:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

Can someone e-mail me with the link for the new Leica LRF that was coming out this year. It is said to be under five bills.I can't find a site for it.Was I dreaming???
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 20:08:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.177.58.22)

Good afternoon,

I have a question that I hope won't generate too much controversy. I am a left handed shooter, and am looking at purchasing an accurate rifle in the very near future. I have previously owned a Savage 110 FP Tactical (right-handed), and I currently own a Savage 116 FLSAK in .300 win. I've decided that I don't need the .300, and am going back to the .308. (So the .300 is for sale if anyone knows a lefty looking for a very nice rifle!)

My question is, the Savage Tactical offers a 1 in 9" twist, while the Remington 700 VSLH in .308 offers a 1 in 10" twist. Keeping in mind that I intend to shoot 168gr. ammo, and some military surplus, is there an advantage to one twist rate over the other? Also, does anyone know if I have any other options for a left handed rifle in the sub $700 class?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
MikeR <mkrouten@wwdb.org>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 20:33:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.76.2)

Hunters,

I have a nice 30'06 load that is the nemisis of deer. It's 54.0gr of H-450, F215, and Hornady 180gr SP cat# 3070. It will touch holes at 100m. Deer gets hit like lightning. I know there are some who already use this load but I thought I would share it all the same. The little 180 is goin' about 2750 out of a 24" tube.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 21:28:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.192)

Robert,

It's a lot more affordable, practical and convenient to maintain a seperate weapon to meet your description. I rebarrel my own Remington's. I don't use a torque wrench and most smiths I know don't. Search Brownell's and the like for the equipment. You need a action wrench and a barrel vise and a mallet, the new barrel, chamber reamer, headspace gauges, crowning, finish method, barrel stamps....Yikes. The action has to be stripped so yes, rezeroing is in order. Second rifle sound cheaper yet? You can have a Good gunsmith make you a switch barrel Remington (Hammond's Rifles in Red Lion, PA. - I don't know him) with a pinned recoil lug and differentl barrels pre-headspaced and chambered to your request as long as the bolt faces are same for the cartridges. I know someone quite happy with a Hammond's switch barrel Rem setup, .308 and .22-250. You want two .308Win barrels, one suppressed, one standard, Maybe different twist rates... Or buy another gun, have the barrel cut and/or threaded on the lathe still in the action.

As for the Out-of-the-box Rem700 accuracy issue; it's unsurpassed in it's price range. Allow 200rd break-in before judging.

MikeR, I thought the 700VS, VSF and VSSF were 1/12 twist and older PSS 1/10?

And Hey, what about Spin Drift? Butterfly Farts have more influence.

Good Shooting
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Tacticalmento, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 23:08:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.195.251)

Kenya,

Thanks. I think you're right. The VSLH is offered in 1 in 12. That's why I was wondering about the difference. 25% less spin may have a significant impact on performance.

Any thoughts?

MikeR <mkrouten@wwdb.org>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Tuesday, January 18, 2000 at 23:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.76.2)

Fellows, "despite" the twist on the VSSF (and cousins) of 1:12", mine does fine and dandy with 168, 175, and acceptable with 190. I have not shot many of the heavy slugs, but the few that I have tried (Norma match grade ammo from Midway, $18/box of twenty rounds) would definitely hold m.o.a. Thing is the other stuff will hold 1/2 m.o.a.

What's the difference between oooohhhhhh and AAAAaaaaHHHh? About 1/2 minute (of angle).

Ken and you other foggers, are you getting ready for the match in Feb? See you there! Bad Karma and Darren Dong, we expect you to show up, or have a really good excuse... (e.g. "you didn't feel like going")
Low pressure, high fun factor.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 00:24:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

A couple of questions for Matt.

1. What is the accuracy of your artillery at reasonable ranges? Either MOA or the circular error probable at a given range. (For the math phobes, the latter is generated from the geometric mean and S.D. for a 50% ring. It is useful for something.)

2. How much correction for spin drift and magnus effect is required at those ranges? If it's much less than MOA, it won't matter to rifles.

3. Do you use all of the nifty gizmos that tankers use like the laser barrel straightness, or doesn't it matter.

4. How hard is direct fire, or is it simply a matter of pushing a button and doing the same as indirect fire?

And to tie it all into to sniping, nothing says lovin' like a 155 round to head. Besides, think about a howitzer in a ghillie. Think Gooch could spot it?

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 00:26:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Out of the box Remingtons. Scott and I disagree(what else is new). I have 11 bolt action rifles, 5 Brownings, 2 Remingtons, 2 Rugers, 1 Steyr and 1 Savage(How many out of the box rifles has Scott spent shooting for a year or more). Both Remington(LTR and Sendro) the Savage and 1 Browning have heavy barrels. The LTR would not feed ammo until the ramp was polished.Its crown was off centre. the trigger was 7-8lbs. The action sat to one side of the stock and the barrel was very close to the forend. When it was new it shot one inch groups. After a trigger job, barrel crown, ramp polishing and a complete bedding job it is shooting 1/2 MOA. My friends new PSS is the same story, recrown, ramp polished and bedding. Its shooting 3/4 MOA now. I think it will get better with a trigger job. The Sendro is a little better looking but I have not fired it yet. None of my other rifles have had any work done on them except for trigger work and a new stock on the savage. The Brownings have great triggers and four of them are 1/2 MOA, the fith is a rim fire and sub MOA out to 60 yards. The Only complaint I have with the Rugers is the triggers are a little heavy. The Browning and Ruger actions are smooth as glass. Remington police guns In MY area are running $700. Thats more than any of my other rifles except the Steyr. Remingtons only good point is there selections. They have configurations that the other makes dont offer. Scott has spent a lot of time working up loads to get his Remingtons to shoot as good as he saids. In his love for a brand he over looks some things.
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 01:06:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.231.152)

Anybody know the penetration of M118LR vs. an M-16 SS109 bullet? Or a website that has real-life data, something like "7.62 100 yds. 8 in. concrete. I'm trying to convince a guy that 5.56 is not the best sniping round, especially at long(er) ranges. He is stuck on the SS109 and thinks it is equal to a 7.62 for ALL LE applications.
Thanks
Steve <strapac@mindspring.com>
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 01:22:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.202.114)

MikeR,

Wills is right. Though me being a perennial tinkerer of the Mechanical Designer heritage has been programmed to "think different". I'm just finishing a rebarreled 700 in 308Win with a Shilen SS #7 contour 26inch 8 land and groove 1/10 RH twist 1.630 headspaced Cabinfever Project, just to see what happens (more money than brains). If my math is correct, 1/10 vs 1/12 is not 25% difference it's about 18%. The downrange difference is unknown until fired. I have no complaints with my 26inch Remington 1/12's out to 1000Y with FM175. Looney's I know at the Sactacticalmento Matches shoot with 308 PSS, VS, VSF and VSSF with 1/12 and either 168 or 175 with near MOA results out to 1000Y (great conditions). 'Cuz good shots like Wills beat me, I have an excuse to experiment (If I spent more time shooting than tinkering? Hmm). I'll post If it's substantially better or worse, but since I'll be shooting it, don't expect an improvement. Hopefully at Feb's Sac match, the fog wont win. But as stated, it's oooohhh or aaahhh, stick or auto, compound or recurve, moly or plain, H-S or McMillan, factory or handload.....either way, wind and the elements preside.

Good Shooting
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Tacticalmento, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 01:54:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.196.200)

Hi, Kenya and Robert. If you want to change barrels easy go get a Sauer, they shoot .5moa or less out of the box. And you can change barrels with a single 8mm hex.
10 times as sexy as a Remington too...

Top it w/a Zeiss and you'll love it forever (once its paid for)

K
Engvoll <engvoll@online.no>
Norway - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 02:59:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.67.112.103)

Man, I hate this back and forth spin-drift / Magnus / Coriolus effect crap. Yes, a body spinning about its axis will gyroscopically precede. Propellor aircraft designers put trim tabs on airplane ailerons to counter for "P" effect. 4.2 inch mortar maggots and other indirect fire rifled-barrel Fire Direction Center guys also take factors for "Drift" into effect. How does that affect a rifleman with anything from 6mm to 50 cal? Why should it? If you're serious, you will already have fired at that distance and logged any differences in impact in your freaking log-book, out to the maximum you think the mission and risk/benefit will allow, for that day, that load, that gun, those atmospherics, that light, whether or not you got a shot o' leg the night before (OK you West Virginny types, no livestock. Sorry, pETE!). If you're REALLY serious, you will have fired at that range enough to already compensate for whatever drift difference you expect, from memory, without going back to your log-book. Great academic argument if you want to kill a guy on the first shot beyond what people consider normal 7.62 range -- say, oh 2,200 to 2,500 yards. Scots shoot on an extended range in the Hebridean Isles -- with a typical rifle a 28-inch barreled .308 Winchester (the same rifles they shoot at Bisley every year in the July Match Rifle meeting). In 1993 George Tubb accepted an invitation, using a borrowed rifle from his hosts -- to go prone and proceed to score a 40 of 50 at 2,640 yards, with the range's closest bullseye-to-center to date.

These are from the January 1999 Precision Shooting article "The Ultra-Long Range Match Rifle in Great Britain":

Island Range Scores 1978-1995: (48 inch bullseye, 108" Inner ("10-ring"), 168 Magpie ("9-ring"), 20 foot x 12 foot Outer)

1500 yards, John de Havilland (supine) 94x100
David Goodall (prone) 48x50

1800 yards, Martin Browne (supine) 47x50
Martin Browne (supine) 67X75

2000 yards, Robin Pizer (supine) 87X100

2200 yards, Rhoddy Voremburg (supine) 78X100
Donald Stewart (prone) 85X100

2500 yards Roland Greenwood (prone) 54X75
Duchess of Argyll (supine) 31X50

2640 yards, Robin Pizer (supine) 84X100

Now, does "Spin drift" really matter? Sheeesh!

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 03:09:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Steve, AR385-63 (Marine Corps Order P3570.1A), Safety policies and Procedures for Firing Ammunition for Training, Target Practice, and Combat, 15 October 1993 (okay, this is for generic M193 (55 grain) 5.56, 7.62 M80 Ball and M118 Match, and 30-06 M2 Ball and M2 AP).

Table 6-2. Thickness of material for positive protection against caliber ammo listed.

Concrete (5,000 psi), 5.56: .5 inch, 7.62 and 30 cal, 7 inches.

Wet sand, 5.56: 25 inches, 7.62 and .30, 36 inches.

Packed or tamped earth, 5.56: 32 inches, 7.62 and .30: 48 inches.

(With the Green Tip 5.56mm NATO ball your actual mileage may vary.)

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 03:32:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Out here on the plains if we have something 2600 yards away we use biological weapons on it. Just get upwind and let it go.
Bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 03:40:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

LOL, you guys are still flappin' about whether spin drift is an effect? Get yer butt out and shoot a 50 at 1600 yards!!! Oh, wait, do that in a place WHERE YOU HAVE ALREADY SHOT so you won't miss because you have already logged the data right??

Wait, the gun groups bigger than the deflection due to spin drift so it's not significant right?? NOT!! 1600 yard no wind shot with no spin drift correction is a MISS!!! By about 20 inches from the edge of the target. Depending on bullet used of course :) Have a nice day.
Trigger50 <Triggerfifty@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 03:45:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.120)

I found this website and am looking for opinions or a review of the book if anyone has read it.

http://hometown.aol.com/lds1952/

Marine Sniper Vietnam: The Phantom Of Phu Bai
Book on Eric England: This project was assisted by the late Carlos Hathcock, the NRA, the USMC, and many top surviving Snipers and Distinguished Shooters

Anybody ever heard of him - bogus or worth ordering.

Lone Wolf <LW@snet.net>
Konnecticut, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 04:01:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.161.208)

Dean, Dean. You remember FDC class in the 18B course in 1984 and IMPOC, right? Look in the book, apply it, shoot it, kill it. I just don't think you should lose sleep over it.

Hope your book sells well. Did you put in the May 94 ARDEC data?
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 04:04:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

FAM-fired the M-2 a few times out to 3000 meters or so at Camp Pendleton. Yes, you can watch the tracers curve to the right. So you simply correct.
Put the spin-drift thing to bed and shoot!

Just got my Forster dies w/ the Mic. seater. Ooooohhh, are they SHHWEEETT! Thanks, Bill.
Spud,
Out
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, kalisocialistfornia, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 07:30:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.18)

On the M118LR penetration data.

Met with an ARDEC engineer (Paul Riggs)a few years ago right when the M118LR was being released. He stated that they were a little disppointed in the 175gr Sierra BTHP penetration properties. It seems that the construction of the round (as with the 168 or any other BTHP) as opposed to the good ole BTFMJ didnt allow as good of penetration. (Now according to the UCMJ penetration, however so slight, is still penetration). They were looking at obtaining the PRL tungsten core technology for the next generation of military projectiles in order to solve this situation as well as the DOD directive that all projectiles developed in the future must have an enviromentaly friendly contruction. I guess we're not too worried about all of that GAU-30 depleted uranium. But I digress...

Now I recently read somewhere that DOD is going to use the PRL tungsten core technology. Anyone confirm that?

Spin drift! I told you guys about this spin drift stuff! It does exist!! Remember the practical exercise I gave you?

Guzzle 2 Guinness's (cans w/widget). Have your buddies spin you round and round and try to run straight! You'll drift in the direction your buddies were spinning you in!

See trigger. You thought I was just an ignrnt jarhead.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 13:31:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.185)

Dave,

LOL, my sense of humor is short these days, my apologies. At most normal combat ranges, I agree totally, SD is a non-effect. At those obscene ranges, different story.

Gooch,

I missed that particular exercise, and i never thought you were an ignorant jarhead, really. You guys take care, hope to shoot some of those matches out there this year.

Trigger50
Trigger50 <trigger762@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 14:13:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.120)

I am looking for some info on a Desert Eagle, with a 6 or 10 inch barrel. In the 41 mag. Do the pistols jam or have any problems that are pretty constant with in the gun. How much does the ammo cost and is there enough info to hand-load them. Why did they go to a 41 mag instead of a 44. How will the guns do on a grizzly because I will be heading to wyoming to hunt elk in the fall if I can draw a tag. and I need some protection other than a bolt action rifle.

Any info would be greatly appreciated, thank you
Zach
Zach <bbbkz@stargate.net>
Evans City, Pennsylvania, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 14:43:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.180.99.13)

As is usual, Cayle seems to think he knows more about me than he does.

In the case of my Remingtons, it is not a matter of brand loyalty. I have just have good luck with them. Could be that I bought mine back when Remington was not havng the current crop of quality issues some folks are complaining about. My newest 700 was made in '96.

As far as load data...My PSS shot just peachy with Federal GM and GM2 with out my doing anything to it. I started handloading since it was cheaper -- but the accuracy of my handloads is only slightly better than the Fed GM. So his theory about me dialing in the PSS via loads is dead wrong. In fact I no longer shoot handloads out of the PSS for this reason. The GM shoots so well that there is no point.

As far as the mods this rifle has undergone, they were done for a TS article, but were not really necessary. At the time it seemed like a good way to get soemthing into print and the articel payed for the mods.

Every one of the rifles I had shot very well with out any work. I worked them because I wanted to see what improvements could be had. I like to experiment and would do the same with any brand. But some people will want to find fault for the sake of argument. So it goes.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 15:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

I have a Remington 700 PSS DM in .308 with a Leupold Vari X III 8.5-25 x40 scope (height 1.8 inches). The gun has a threaded muzzle and a Hyperdyne Muzzle brake on it. I have a situation that I am having a problem resolving with this gun. I need some help.

Using several ballistic programs I came up with numbers that should get me on paper at 300 yards with a 19 yard zero. I zeroed the rifle in at 19 yards with no problems. On a whim I posted the target out to 50 yards. At this range with a zero of 19 yards, according to the programs I have been using I should hit about 2.1 inches high. I am not. I am getting consistant hits 5 inches high. The rifle is consistant with its accuracy and I can easily make 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. The problem is that I cannot use a program to estimate trajectory at a given distance. It seems that the Bullet is traveling above the line of departure or curving up during flight. Any ideas?

thanks,

michael
Michael Saranos <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 16:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.189)

Zach, if you are hunting with a bolt rifle, why do you think you need more protection? Do you plan on dropping your rifle at a critical moment? Come on now! If you decide that a mere rifle isn't enough to make you feel well-armed in bear country, then forget the D.E. if for no other reason than its weight. The sucker is a boat anchor. Get yourself a .44 mag revolver and strap it on.

D.E. models are available in .357, .41 mag, .44 mag, and .50AE, and maybe others that I don't know about.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 16:46:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

Cayle,
Maybe Iam just lucky but I have never had to polish any feed ramps or anything else to get my Remingtons to shoot. I agree that there are some bad one's out there but its that way with all brands. I have shot both good and bad with most all brands that are made. I love Sakos and they always shot extremely well for me so when I had a chance to trade a rife for one that was nearly new because it "Wouldn't Shoot" I jumped on the trade. I was sorry and soon dumped it out. It was a 22-250 and would not shoot any better than 1.25 with anything shot in it. There are just some bad rifles once in awhile. I must say though that I have had more good shooting Remingtons than anything else. I have two 1999 Remingtons one is a VLS in 260 and the other is a 260 in a BDL SS sporter and both rifles shoot extremely well. Like Scott and others on here we like to tinker with them to see if we can get them to shoot better but so what?? That doesn't mean it won't shoot as well or better than most factory rifles and as far as Brownings go I have seen a lot of them that weren't worth a crap in the accuracy dept.

Michael,
Stop worring about ballistic programs and go out and zero it at 100yds then shoot it at 200 and record the info and then go to 300 and do the same thing until you have reached the distance you want to shoot. This will be a blueprint of your gun then and then when the conditions change you will have to do it again. It is only correct for that day at that time on that range. Nothing is concrete when it comes to shooting. Its a skill thats learned through trigger time and sorry to say there is no easy way to do it with programs or anything else. Good luck and good shooting!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 17:26:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Michael S,

If you're using a consistent load like Fed Match 175/168, get a hundred yard zero and then add another 5 MOA (@15.75 inches) of come-up for three hundred yards. Guaranteed on paper (size 24 X 24). Faster than all the wrong ballistic programs. Ballistic programs only generate Terminal Ballistics, which are Ballistics that only work at your computer Terminal. Don't forget to adjust for your Spin effect at 300Y which will require about 1/8 inch correction left (joking).

Good Shooting
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Sacrademented, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 18:48:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.195.121)

Zach: Wills already hit this one on the head, but I'm gonna tag in on it one too. Carrying a pistol for back up of a bolt action is along the same lines (credit to Col. Cooper for this one) as backing up a destroyer with a speedboat. Just for kicks, take a BUNCH of milk jugs. Fill 'em with water. Line 'em up, and hit 'em with your 30-06 or whatever hunting rifle so that you can see how many gallons one round will penetrate. Repeat the exercise with a pistol. You'll KNOW the difference then, and maybe carry a few extra rounds for the rifle, and no pistol :-)
Besides, I shot a friends 357 DE, and what I said about the HK USP being large gripped goes double for this pistol! Recoil is MILD, but the pistol is HEAVY.
If these things worry you, hunt with a M1A, 5 rounder in there for the deer, 20 rounder on the hip for bear..... JUST JOKING!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 18:49:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

First of all, Thanks for the responses and emails.

Got another question... I would like to work up a safe, stable, and decently accurate (2-3 inch groups at 200 yards acceptable) for .308 that is subsonic and will be used with a suppressor. I am looking to work up a load that will work in a 26" Remington with a 1:12 twist and a 20" Remington with a 1:10 twist. My main concerns are as follows:

1. the round has to be stable coming out of the muzzle so it doesn't yaw into the baffles. I understand this eliminates boat tail bullets.

2. I need a load that will not leave filler residue in the suppressor. Or a load that doesn't use a filler would be nice.

3. I would ideally like to get around 950-1050 fps muzzle velocity.

I have been searching for a decent subsonic load but I haven't had much luck. Please email any load data to me. Thank you again.

Michael

Michael Saranos <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 19:35:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.191)

Michael,
I don't know what your trying to do that you need a supressed 308 or what type of silencer you have but I would buy a silencer from OPS INC. 503-474-3777 and shoot whatever ammo you want. I have shot his 308s with Federal Match and Black Hills ammo and if you were a short distance away you would not be able to tell where it came from or that you were even shot at. He builds silencers for the special ops units in the military and they do work!!! They last for thousands of rounds too.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 20:23:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Michael,

Why not boat-tail bullets? I know some LE types with suppressed rifles, and almost all they shoot is Federal Match. They got some subsonic stuff too. I think it was IMI, but don't remember for sure. The suppressor is so cool, no ear plugs needed! The sonic "crack" is louder than I thought it would be. They bad guys would hear it, but I think it would be hard for the BG's to locate the shooter from the muzzle report.
I don't know what projectile is loaded in the sub-sonic round.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 20:30:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.61)

HEY, calm down. I was asking about the amount of spin drift correction for the big guns, not our little plinkers. I know that for all practical purposes and at reasonable ranges, spindrift on less than 50 cal is negligible. Either you have the data in your logbook which includes the corrections or it just doesn't matter after the wind is accounted for.

For those of you who shoot at 2000 yards, take it into account. Please note that the X ring of those targets is significantly larger than minute of man, or even minute of moose.

I should have stated this up front instead of letting ya'll take it and run. I know better than to start one of these threads. You have to admit that the reflexive "it exists/it doesn't" makes it prime sniper bait, though.

Anyway, how accurate are the big boomers, to get back to the original question?

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 20:32:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

I am using an AWC Thundertrap. I have heard from several people that using boattail bullets at sub sonic velocities can have a yaw right out of the muzzle. I heard several subsonic loads through a suppressor in .308 and I would like to see if I can get something close.

Thanks again.

Michael
Michael Saranos <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 21:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.188)

Karl,
I know very little about artillery but I have a magazine article around somewhere that says that those big 16 inch Naval guns can launch a 2000 lb projectile and hit a area about the size of a football field from 25 miles away. I did the math on this and this works out to about .25 MOA. How about them apples!

That still does not compare with the greatest TV shot of all time, which was the JAG episode in which Gunnery Sgt. Ray Crockett hit a side view mirror of a moving Hum-Vee offhand at a distance of well in excess of 800 meters, and did it twice, the second time in front of an admiral, and his commmading officer, (who accused the Gunnery Sgt. of trying to plink him.) I have this episode on tape and have been studying it frame by frame for several days now. I actually learned something very useful from all this which helps me with my offhand shooting. Does anyone remember this JAG episode?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 21:37:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.133)

A few questions, if you will.

Do these highly touted "chassis" stocks hold an advantage over a well and properly bedded rifle?
Are there any "chassis" stocks that resemble a traditonal stock?
Couldn't an HS Precision stock, with its aluminum block, be considered a chassis, one that can't be dismantled?
If we buy that, couldn't a well bedded rifle be considered the same?

A tip. When I got a soft covered instructional book, I took it to my local printer and got him to cut off the spine. He then punched it for a 3 ring binder, and... well, by now the benefit should be obvious.

If I had been a Marine, I would sign off with "Semper Fi." As I was in the Air Force, "When's lunch?"
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Land of milk & honey, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 21:51:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.171)

Hey Trigger 50,
What type of 50 do you shoot?I work at Barrett Mfg.I am building a M95 to my own liking(it is good to be able to)I was wondering if you shoot in the FCSA?If so,do you go to any of the matches?Does any one know of a place to shoot 50's near mid-tenn?Even though I work there,it is hard to find a place to shoot 'em,The local high-power range is trying to get certified by the gov't.
out of here.
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 22:23:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.5.35)

Two questions:

Any recommendations on rings and bases for a Rem. 700 for use with a Leupold LR M3? I have been assuming Leupold Mk4, but after searching this site and seeing that SMTC offers (recommends?) Badger Ordnance, I thought I would ask the experts. The rifle is a 26" bbl PSS, in .308 Win. I would like to be able to take advantage of the M3's elevation capabilities, to get me out to 1000 yards. Will either of these bases require shimming or are they good to go out of the box? Pardon my ignorance, I am a hunter-turned-long-range-shooter, any info would be greatly appreciated.

Also, anyone know of a good place to shoot 400-1000 yards in northwest Oregon? My favorite spot just got sold to a private party - no more shooting allowed there.

Thanks,

Brian

Brian S <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
Oregon, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 23:19:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.21.215.28)

OK lets go to this rifle thing one more time. If you are happy with your high dollar Sako's and Acc. Inter.'s fine, but out in Calif the Sako is 3500.00 US and the Acc. over 4000.00 US. They dont shoot any better than a custom built Remington. Most sniper rifles today will shoot 3/4 MOA or better for three rounds but take a ten shot group and see what you get. The bottom line is just because it costs more does not mean it shoots better.

Spin Drift does not make a significant impact on a 308 at normal sniper ranges. Take more time working out the wind adjustments. I see most folks worring about all kinds of things and can't read wind to save their butt. KInda like putting the boat in the water, with a full tank of gas and no plug in the stearn.

Since I am just a cop I will sign off "Where's my coffee?"

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 23:26:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.68)

UNDUDE,
In your attempt to sign-off you may have over looked the common perception.
Where's the DONUT! :)
Frank
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
fishtrap, or, USA - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 at 23:41:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.214.112.88)

Kent,
Here's the link to the new 7.62 and 5.56 NATO AP rounds the Army has adopted. The design is from FFV of Sweden, but they sound an awful lot like the PRL tungsten core match bullets. If their quality control is OK they should have a good bit of kinetic energy "ass" behind it when it arrives on target, but I have no idea how accurate it'll be.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/AP.htm

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 00:28:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Brian S,

I can't answer any of your scope questions, but I think that Tri-County has a 600yd range, and I've heard that Douglas Ridge has a 700 or 800yd range. If you do find someplace that goes to 1000yds, let me know, I live in SW Washington, and am also looking for a good place to shoot.

Also, if anyone knows of a lefty looking for a great deal on a .300 Win Mag, please see my posting for a Savage 116 FLSAK in the Emporium. (This rifle looks A LOT like the new rifle Savage is selling in their website!)

Thanks,

MikeR

MikeR <mkrouten@wwdb.org>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 00:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.76.2)

Robert, don't bother with two seperate bbls. The TPR-S mounts using a special muzzle break, you can remove the can in 2 seconds and shoot without it no problem. While the bbl can be threaded while still in the action, the standard practice it to remove it and thread between centers, since the bore is seldom in the center of the bbl. Gemtech will thread and mount the break for you for $100. If you have not already, you can see my review of the TPR-S here at SC.

All those looking at subsonic .308's. DO NOT USE boattail bullets in a subsonic load with the suppressor. They will yaw badly, causing baffle strikes. this may destroy the can, and cause you damage as well. Flat base bullets with a round nose will work best, no more than 180grs for a 1 in 12" bbl and 200 to 220 for a 1 in 10. I use 10 grains of AA #9 with a Norma 220 #16332 bullet. Be advised that most manufacturers will not warranty the can if you use these loads. Gemtech will only warrant loads from Engle Ballistic Research (512) 360 5327. Lapua loads in particular are very poor. Sound Technology can also provide good loads, Black Hills is also a good source.

The OPS Inc. cans are now available commercially, if anyone has an interest you can contact me. I know Phil and get a pretty good price. You'll need to get the bbl machined to spec, they use a two-point mount with a tapered shoulder turned on the bbl for the rear of the can, which telescopes back over the bbl.

Most quality suppressors actually ENHANCE accuracy, plus acting as great muzzle breaks. A suppressed .300 WinMag is like shooting a .223. The downside in increased weight and length, plus a nasty mirage off the can after 3 or 4 shots.

Cory Trapp
SAS Products
Class 3 dealer
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
ALiso Viejo, CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 01:00:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.10.147.75)

Looked over a very neat new .50 cal today. 36 lbs, 32" bbl, 5 shot bolt action repeater. Parker Hale bipod at the front of the receiver, scope rail machined as part of the receiver. The buttstock collapses, the bipod folds to the rear, the bbl removes via a large knurled nut, making a package that fits in a small assault rifle case, (think AUG size) and sets up in about 2 minutes. A bit pricey, just under 9K, but the nicest unit I've seen to date. I'll get some pictures scanned after a trip to the range.
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 01:09:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.10.147.75)

Steve:
I remember that episode... I don't think I saw the whole thing, only the off-hand shot at the beginning, and something at the end in a warehouse with laser-pointers that were being used to fool someone into thinking they were being targeted.... it's been awhile since I saw it, probably when it was first on.

If I remember correctly, that fellow who played the gunny is who I think would be perfect to play Bob Lee Swagger from Stephen Hunter's book Point of Impact. Entertaining book... I had issues w/ bits of it, but it was a good read... entertaining.

Jim, since you said it, I reckon I have to use it this time, although today I'm more in a Semper Gumby mood myself.....

Semper Fi, Devil Dogs...
-L, 0311

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 01:25:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.215)

Brian and Mike,
Douglas Ridge has a 1000yrd range and Tri-county has a 600yrd range. E-mail me for specifics.
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 01:33:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.208)

MIke; actually the stern plug isn't important unless you stop the boat. Is there something you would like to tell us about the bass boat you once had?
Bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 01:49:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Paul S in Oregon. Not to be big headed here but if SMTC recommends the Badger Rings/Mounts then you already have an expert opinion. If Rod doesn't use it, he doesn't sell it. Badger Ord is one of the industry standards. Many custom gunmakers use them. I have a set on my Armament Technology C-24.

As far as a range to shoot goes. I have an old friend who is the Fire Management Officer at the Malhour (?) wildlife refuge. He was talking a while back of building a long range facility out there. His name is Martin Jannette (Say it like its French). He's another frustrated former 82nd AA sniper type. See it you can find him. Don't know if thats close to you or not.

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 02:10:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

Change of subject,

I was looking through some of my older Rifle and Handloader mags the other night and saw an ad from Speer bullets around 1972. In this ad they were offering 168gr match bullets with a rebated boat tail. I have not seen a bebated boat tail before in person. Is there any signifigant advantages to these? I was in a heated talk one time when a gentleman touted that a boat tail will thrash the throat of a barrel whereas a flat based bullet will not. Any ideas? I'm not touching spin drift with a ten foot pole. Talk about kicking a dead horse. If I ever shoot far enough to where spin drift is a problem it will be a rare day indeed.

Wills,

If I can't make it to Mudville match is for one of two reasons. 1, I am out of components or 2, The academy is kicking my ass.

Michael,

Regarding subsonic ammo. Mike, unless you are a class 3 holder, LE, Diane Feinstiens body guard, or you don't care, I would not even think of playing with that stuff. Ten years ago you might have got a quizical look. Now they put you in room 101! Suppressors are cool, but I won't play with them. That being said for my personal disclaimer. I suggest you try a 180gr bullet of boat tail design, so when it hits it will tumble. Use a FAST powder like IMR-4227. Try 15 grains and work up. Do you know what to look for in adverse pressure signs?
If you have a chronograph use it to see where you need to be. Baffles, eh? Are you using freeze plugs? Then you want your muzzle presure as low as possible. The bad thing of these low velocity stuff is that jackets do odd things in barrels. I would use a gas checked cast bullet if I were to choose.
I have a load that I call my gallery load. It's about as loud as a hot .22. It's a 71gr FMJ for a .32 ACP. I drop 5-7gr of Bullseye in the case with a magnum primer. In my field kit I carry about 10 or so for squirrels. I can keep them inside 2MOA at 100m.
So Mike, get your license and let me know.
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 02:52:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.107)

I am glad to see I stirred thing up a little. And on a rifle topic at that. If I thought that Remingtons were all that bad I would not have bought my second one. In all honesty I just like pinging on Scott. I have a lot of fun at his expense. When he told me he was thinking of getting the work done on his PSS I thought it was a waste of money because it was shooting so good(and told him so). In hind sight the resulting T.S. actical was one of the best I have read. A meat and potatoes kind of actical. Good job. In my job I have seen some good products with defects and some very bad products that last a customer forever. I love when a customer asks me why something brand new broke. I just reply babies die dont they? They leave me alone after that. I think the feeding problem on the two Remington police rifles I mentioned may be caused by the coating that is being used. They coat the ramp and the inside of the action with this rough black stuff,the same thats on the outside(rust portection?). The sendro I just bought did not have this coating on the ramp. I just wish when people tell you about something that has served them well, they tell you the whole story, the good with the bad. I like to see the whole picture and make my mind up for myself. I like to know the worst that I can expect. Much easier to be prepared that way. I hate surprises.
CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 03:33:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.231.36)

Leslie,
The episode that I am talking about there was an offhand shot in the begining. The Gunney was at the sniper range in Quantico teaching his students when the new CO drove up in a hum-vee and told him that he was being transfered to Bosnia. The Gunney Sgt. tried to explain that he had a deal with the former CO and that he was not going to kill anymore and that he could serve out the rest of his 20 years at the range. The CO drove off in the Hum-vee while The Gunny was trying to explain the deal. This pissed the Gunney off and when the vehicle was way down range, the gunny took a rifle from one of the students and fired a offhand shot which hit the sideview mirror of the vehicle. The Gunny was promptly arrested and he promptly escaped and headed for the hills. When he was finally captured after humiliating several squads of snipers sent out to take him down. Harm convinced the CO to let Crockett duplicate his offhand shot and prove that he was only trying to get his attention, not trying to kill him. Which he did. The CO relented and fined the Crockett for malicious destruction of Gov. property and ordered him to make restitution and fined 60 days at half pay.

By the way, the flight time of the bullet was 2.35 seconds. but the most incredible thing was that the Hum-vee had to be traveling at 880 mph to get from the place where the Gunnery Sargent milled the range to the place where the Hum-Vee had to be downrange in order to get hit in the sideview mirror after a bullet flight time of 2.35 seconds.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 04:08:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.24.216)

USA Sako Price's,

It's a pity that the Sako agent's in the US,charge such high price's,still if you shop around you might find better price's than,$3500USD,at the sniper store on SC,their price is $2300USD and that's a gunshop in the State's,
At riistamaa.fi,a shop in Finland,current price on TRG-21 is 8,935FIM,or $1654USD(on to that you would have to put Tax and Freight ).

Yes the price's are REAL,I have a TRG-41 in the Gun Cabinet too prove it,from riistamaa .
Is it so hard to personally import a rifle in to the State's,in NZ you can do it and we have much more restrictive gun law's generally.
A Rem Police type rifle sell's over here(NZ) for around $1,000USD,then I need to spend around $300 for mount's and ring's,etc etc,
So for me it is not a super dear rifle in comparison to a REM,it is slightly dearer,but I get all the Extra's as std,that I would have too shell out for seperatily,ie good detach mag,if I went the REM way I would have too get the mag and trigger guard off the HS serie's.
Swings and Round abouts.

I try not too have a Firm opinion on a weapon until I have at lest held it,dosn't always happen that way of course.

RE; TRG-21/41 serie's,look at the improved TRG-22/42 serie's to replace them in Sako's product line,the only info to date I have,is they have different stock's and bipod's and the 42 seem's to have a threaded barrel as oppossed to a threaded muzzle brake.

Subsonic load's,

If you do not want to use filler's,do what the Finn's do,set aside some case's for subsonic use ONLY,and drill out the flash hole to 4mm,and use mag primer's,and when trying to make sub ammo the Major Rule is DO NOT USE RIFLE POWDER'S ,use very fast Shotgun/Pistol powder,like VV310 & VV320 or Hodgdon's Clay's.Use those ugly jacketed RN type with Flat base,or lead cast bullet's,don't gas check the cast bullet's as they can get eaten by your silencer,just moly them or lube as normal.Check your ammo will stablise,without your can mounted will save a lot of embrassment and cost,when you have a load that is accurate 1-2 moa,then screw your can on,also a good idea to once you have the can on do a final check for alignment,just pull the bolt out and look down the barrel,if you can't see out it's not on Right.
The check take's 2 sec's and will save you a good repair bill,and keep checking while shooting that the can is not becoming lose.

Believe it or not you can use squib load's in your Hi-Powered hunting rifle for short range practice and potting small game near the hunting camp,you can get use with out having to mount a nasty old can on it,powder maker's at the momemt see making a special powder tailored for subsonic in rifle's as a improper product that will be the powder of choice for criminal's(I don't think they reload)when it would just be used exactly the way low velocity rimfire ammo is used,for when you want to practice cheaply and do not want to deafened by the noise.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 04:40:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.176)

I've got a great idea for a new TV show.It's about an anchor clanker lawyer that investigates shootings at military ranges.It's full of sub plots of artillery trajectories,spin drift and mean radii.I personally think it will be a hit.Almost forgot the subliminal sheep messages.
Tony W. <gtw90@gateway.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 04:43:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.255.177)

Steve,

Ain't it odd how TV sort of overlooks reality? I guess it would be too cool if a guy could make an offhand shot on a moving target from over 800M everytime, or if I had a HumVee that'd do 880mph! I guess the producers of JAG just can't find good techno advisers these days.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 04:50:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.177)

Don, The information about the 800 yard leica rangefinder for $399 is here: http://www.swfa.com/binoculars/leica/index.html

I have one on order, it is due to be shipped at the end of the month or the first week of Feb.
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 05:10:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Steve:

Will you be my math tutor this semester?

maggot...PA
maggot <maggot@epix.net>
*, PA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 06:26:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.238.238.82)

Gooch:
Thanks for the recommendation on the Badger Ord rings and mounts. I was already under the impression "if SMTC uses it, it is the best." No big-headedness there; the reputation is well deserved. Would it also be safe to conclude that a one-piece base would be superior to a two piece base on a 700 short action? Since the Badger system uses a one piece base in all the photos on the SMTC web site, I would seem to think so. I have had local gun dealers try to argue that it is too hard to clean the action with a one-piece base. What do you (and others) think? Kind of elementary, but if there is an advantage to the one-piece I would like to utilize it. I have only had long action hunting rifles, with two-piece mounts; does it make a noticeable difference for a precision rifle shooter?

Also thanks all for the long range info for Oregon.

Brian S
Brian S <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
Oregon, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 07:01:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.124.216)

Dave L,

Regarding your post, "Man, I hate this back and forth spin-drift / Magnus / Coriolus effect crap. Yes, a body spinning about its axis will gyroscopically precede. Propellor aircraft designers put trim tabs on airplane ailerons to counter for "P" effect."

I just wanted to point out something about "P effect" more commonly known among pilots as "P-factor" since I've gotten an email from a friend who reads the roster about this. A web site that I have referenced to help out some of my fellow aviation students here at college is:

http://www.monmouth.com/~jsd/how/htm/title.html#mytoc

Paraphrasing from this website;

"P-Factor
The term P-factor in aviation is defined to mean "asymmetric disk loading". In airplanes, this effect is very small. For the effect to occur at all, you need to have an angle between the propeller axis and the relative wind. To be specific, imagine that the aircraft is in a nose-high attitude, but its direction of motion is horizontal (i.e. the relative wind is horizontal). Then the downgoing blade will be going down and a little bit forward, while the upgoing blade will be going up and a little bit backward. The downgoing blade will effectively have a slightly higher airspeed. Since this blade is on the right-hand side of the airplane (once again assuming a typical American engine) it will tend to torque the airplane around to the left and you'll need right rudder to compensate."

I just wanted to point out that the rudder is used to compensate for "P factor" not the ailerons. Rudder affects yaw or motion about the vertical axis and the ailerons affect roll(bank angle) or motion about the longitudinal axis.

Also P factor is not the same as gyroscopic precession. Related - yes, the same - no.

Most engines and vertical stabilizers are offset at a slight angle to counter the effects of P factor and gyroscopic precession.

Torque would seem to be the force that would affect roll the most and would be the force that would require a built in trim angle. Mainly a trim tab is a small, adjustable hinged surface on the trailing edge of the aileron, rudder, or elevator control surfaces that are designed to be labor saving devices that enable the pilot to release manual pressure on the primary controls. They simply allow you to trim off excess control forces.

To me, tourqe and P factor are irrelevant to rifle ballistics but gyroscopic precession, of course, is.

I'm not to nit-pick or point fingers, I just wanted to post to clear up something that didn't seem right.

I like the dialoge thats on here recently, much better than KungFu at 2000m or Y2K whatever. Anyways, if others can talk 'sheep' on here I can talk airplanes.

What amount of lead is appropriate for a KC-135 on short final,
RAWS; Range 500m, Angle 90*angle, Wind O, Speed 160 knots, anyone??

I've often wondered that (for the sake of argument ONLY!) while holding short of the active rwy at Offutt AFB waiting for a KC-135 Heavy to touch-n-go.

~C
Colin Caspers <deltavkps@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 09:45:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.3.225.76)

To Undude:

It is true that a Custom Rem700 or Win70HB is cheaper in the US than a Sako TRG-21 or Sauers, Steyr SSG´s and other in Europe produced rifles are in the US. It happens to be true also that those run-of-the-mill Rem 700VS´s and Rem 700 PSS´s are premium priced here in Europe and are not such bargains anymore. Also knowledgeable gunsmiths that are able to tune-up properly a Rem 700 are here in Europe very rare and they are not cheap.

If I were living in the states I would probably buy a factory custom H-S Precision´s HTR in 308. With all middle men, taxes etc. this rifle would cost here in Finland almost as much as two TRG-21´s. So the price-quality difference varies quite much, depending where you live. Here the local importer a) does not import 700 VS-LH normally at all b) if they special order it, the wait will be 2-3 months and c) the price would be around 1150 USD minimum. And this would be the "box-stock" rifle with a "18 dollar barrel" as the Rem representative once said to some gunwriters. The same rifle in the US costs around 600 USD. Besides it needs its trigger guard replaced, Baer scope mounts, Badger rings and Leupold 3.5-10X40 LR M3, total costs would be near 2700 USD.

I bought my totally custom-made 338 Lapua rifle in left-handed configuration stocked with A2-stock and equipped with Nightforce 5.5-22X56 scope for less than 2650 USD. -> Depending what you want/need, a locally produced product probably will be cheaper, even if quality is the same or better than what some more expensive imports have.

This is the reason why the Rem 700 is not so much used in Europe. Besides all special gear dedicated for Rem 700 must be imported too, and their prices are not cheap either. Rifles that shoot good, are good rifles, no matter what their prices. Good Custom Rem 700 shoot daman good, but so does TRG-21´s too. And Mauser, and Steyr´s etc.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 13:23:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.16.98.41)

Chris,

I found a dealer in the Dayton Ohio area that offered to order me the TRG21 for $2400 out the door. I think I will probably do this in a couple of weeks.
Two of the Sales People there have the Sako Tikka White-Tail Sporters, one is the basic rifle with a Nikon Varmint Scope on it, and the other one is being modified for a full-length suppressor, and will become a class 3 item ( Legally, of course ). The accuracy is reported to be sub-1/2 moa with Federal Match ammo.
Thanks for all of the TRG info you sent to me. I will keep you advised on the Suppressed Tikka. I am told that with the barrel-length suppressor that you can shoot Federal Match, and it becomes sub-sonic. We'll see.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 13:34:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.198)

Does anybody know where I can find a shop manual for accurizing a 1903-A4 (M-84 scope). Also what were the accuracy expectations of these rifles. fred
Fred Brooks <fjbrooks@webtv.net>
Bishop, Ga., USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 13:49:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.200.16)

T-18 man...you DO know what they say about the penis size on guys who have to bust on others to feel better about themselves, now don't you? ;-)

Brian S:

On your base selection question. The Leupold Mk4 base is a good base, but you will NOT be able to get to 1000 yards with out shimming it if you use a Leupold VX-III LR M3. The best you get is maybe 700 some yards. You will have to shim this base to reach 1000 yards.

The Badger is a much better choice, although it's cant angle is a bit high at 20 degrees. As an example, 15 degrees gets your .308, LR M3 equipped rifle out to 1200 yards or so and it does not force your head up so high in terms of cheek weld as does a 20 degree base. Cant angle notwithstanding, the Badger base as it is simply one of the BEST you can find. You will obviously NOT have to shim the badger. You also have to other choices in tapered one piece bases. The DD Ross base, which looks a lot like the Badger or the Autauga tapered base, which is also very similar but somewhat heavier. Any of these will get you to well beyond 1000 yards with out any further shimming. All are high quality and exceed the quality of the Leupold Mk4 base by a fair clip. My only complaint about any of them is the cant angle. I wish they would stick to 15 degrees and leave my cheak weld closer to stock.

On your most recent post:

The idea that a one piece base makes it harder to clean an action is ludicrous. Gun dealers generally have their heads up their collective asses when it comes to actual shooting. Some are very into the sport but I have found many to simply be salesman with little knowledge of what they sell. Cleaning an action properly does not require you to go in from the top anyway, so a one piece base is hardly an impediment to proper care. You can access the lug area via several tools fed in from the rear of the action and a rag wrapped around a short section of a cleaning rod is often all that is necessary to get to the guides in the receiver. I find it kind of funny that someone would think a one piece makes it harder because BOTH one and two piece bases have SCOPES on them that technically "get in the way". ;-)
Last thing on this issue…if you open up the floor plate, you can go in from there if you had to, but frankly, there is not problem either way.

Colin! Dude! A fellow pilot. Great explanation on the P-factor versus gyroscopic precession! I could not have said it as well. Not by a long shot! And by the way, on the holding short thing…the one thing that makes be feel better about waiting for these guys is the fact that my little Continental C85-12F is sucking down a miniscule amount of fuel compared to the big iron. I had a Citation hold for me one day and had to laugh at the thought that he was probably burning more fuel sitting there than I did in the entire month! Aviation Country…oh crap! ;-)

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 13:55:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Dudes and Dudettes,

What do you keep in your pockets/packs for starting fires in cccold weather?

Which of you have actually tried using the stuff in the field for viability? In Alaska I carried metal match, birch bark, pine needles, wax soaked cotton balls.
I now have metal match, ciggy lighter, 2 film canisters with dryer lint, machine shredded waxed paper, smokeless power (44.0 gr charge of VARGET, naturally), and some WP matches.

Just looking for something a little more usable than gyroscopic precession of falling Canadian goose dung in the Andes......... ;-)

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 14:19:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.154)

Colin, if the rudder counters "P-factor" roll, why is there a tab on the right aileron on Cessnas and the old P47 Thunderbolt? My point was about a bullet/ 4.2 mortar round/ 155 howitzer projectile/ helicopter fuselage. That body's affected due to some application of velocity, torque, and centrifugal force. As it accelerates (leaves the muzzle) and flies on trajectory (time of flight from muzzle to apogee to target, with velocity decay) to impact it'll precess (I think 30-06 M2 Ball will go somewhere between 1 and 1 1/2 MOA at 1,000 yards). At service rifle iron sight range it's negligible. Human beings on a 7.62 with a scope to 1,100 yards need to learn to read wind, mirage, and light more than they need to compensate for a present (but negligible at combat range) effect. Or get closer. I'd dare say/ask that the majority of the kind readers on this board have never fired their rifles to their own shooter/rifle/scope/load maximum (not max effective) range. That's why we ask, read, and write, then (most importantly) shoot and learn. As a Former Action Guy I do this as my hobby.

Oh, and by the way, if I had a rifle instead of a machinegun I'd wait 'til that KC was on the ground, then hit hit while he was taxi'ing, if my rifle had the range legs to hit him. A 7.62 thru a turbine brings out at least a 72-hour tool box and ladder crew. :)

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 14:41:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Pete, have you ever seen Fire Ribbon in a squeeze tube (like toothpaste comes in)? Campmor used to carry it in their mail-order catalog. I used to carry it to prime an old Svea 123 field stove. That thing was wonderful as far as putting out BTU's, but it sounded like a Chinook on pre-flight warm-up -- I'm sure everyone for a klick around could hear it. I've found that dryer lint burns real fast. Hadn't thought of the shredded wax paper (I'll see if the S-2 chews my butt out if he sees me by the shredder!). Trioxane fuel bars or the British hexamine disks work nice, but put out really noxious fumes. We used to joke that when things got really bad on Ranger students in the north Georgia mountains you could get a really psychodelic "rock-your-world" trip by getting six of your closest (and aromatic) friends under a poncho with the maps and op order, light a heat tab, and turn on a distress strobe. Whooo-hoo, cheap date!
Dave liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Man it's snowing hard outside, Virginia, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 14:54:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Hey, did anyone catch this month's Tactical Shooter article by the Chandler Brothers on the Marine Designated Marksman program? It was an excellent piece and its conclusions, in my opinion, are 100% accurate. They pretty much damn the Corp for its planned adoption of the M25 (a rehashed M14) as the new DM rifle. Their arguments are concise, convincing, and bang on! It is hard to believe an organization like the Marine Corp, who has traditionally led in weapons development and adoption, would take so foolish a step backward. The logistics alone for supporting this faulty system in a regular platoon are enough to prove it should not be done. And before all you High Power guys go berserk in defense of the old M14, please remember that in a combat environment it was a failure as a LOW MAINTENANCE and ACCURATE sniper weapon. It needed a ton of TLC to keep it going with a consistent zero. It can be made to shoot very accurately, particularly in the civilian world where it is babied and will not see long term adverse conditions. But if you abuse it at all it is going straight back to the armorer, who by the way, is now better trained to service the M16. So, why on earth would the Corp cave in to a few old dinosaurs and foist this thing on a non-sniper in a platoon where everyone else has an M16? Amazing. Stupid and amazing. Very unMarine like.

Anyway, the article was very informative. I for one would not want to be the poor schmuck Designated Marksman, who is just a regular grunt after all AND NOT A TRAINED SNIPER, holding this thing in a fire fight when I ran out of ammo. No one else in the platoon is going to have what I need to feed the damn thing! Nor can I with hold my precious ammo in reserve since I am still a member of the over all platoon and expected to fight along side everyone else!

The Chandlers make a really strong argument but the funny thing is, nothing they say takes a rocket scientist to figure out. It is all SELF EVIDENT. The DM is not a sniper (contrary to what he may think due to some folks telling him so). He is a regular troop, with the added capability and skill to hit targets his platoon members can not, via a scoped rifle. Any tuned heavy barreled flat topped M16 with a military grade scope can do this out to 700 yards and beyond, so why weigh the DM down with an old, VERY high maintenance system that can not be supported at the platoon level where the user will be operating? Why also use a caliber not readily found in the normal platoon? I find it amazing that a rifle that was in service for a lousy three years can still be so valued by the old guard who's best memory of the thing was made on the civilian range in competition, and not in long term combat. They seem unwilling to let the .308 go but their entrenched attitude does not reflect the role of the DM as required. This decision is at odds with their own requirement. The .308 is a great round, but unnecessary for the Designated Marksman when you consider that the 5.56 round is as accurate and readily available in the platoon.

And before you M14/M1A owners get your dander up, please realize something. Those who used the rack grade M14 in Nam were normal troops. They loved the power of the thing…but they did not require the added accuracy a sniper or DM will need today. Most frankly, as proven by statistics, were NOT aiming much anyway so lets not argue about the rifles potential accuracy. A 2.5 moa rack grade M14 worked for the normal grunt but it was not ideal as a sniper rifle. A Sniper grade M14 took a ton of maintenance to keep in operation. It too worked, but not with out regular and constant problems arising from its bedding and its poor scope mounting system. It was taken out of service for a reason, whether we like to admit it or not.

The DM will be WAY better served with a modifed standard infantry rifle. That means the M16, not the old M14. If you disagree with me I do not think you completely understand the requirement of a DM. Go read the Chandler piece. They sum it up way better than I can ever hope to. Think LOGISTICS LOGISTICS LOGISTICS and maintenance. The M25 is a piss poor choice for the DM. Give every platoon one scoped M16 and follow the simple path to happiness… :-)

I am going to try to get their article reprinted here. It clear and concise and deserves a wider distribution.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 14:58:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Dave L.,

Thanks!,

I did not know the fire ribbon was still available... Thought maybe it had been "banned" as being an evil arsonsists tool and having no sporting purposes. If you got a tube, what is the composition?

The dryer lint does burn hot n fast, shredded wax paper is then easily ignited, wax melts on twigs n stuff and poof flame. The lighter is for above zero conditions. I might have to swipe a piece of a fire log and 1/2" cube it and roll it in magnesium dust. hmmmm?

Trioxane tablets are a pretty cool idea too, have to remember your party routine and bring the portable CD player with some Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Industrial Techo (REAL TRENDY Torsten), etc. etc.

Good point on us hobbiest and MER. I sometimes think mine is about 6" from the muzzle.......

ofta shovel more snow!

cHAO!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 15:28:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.79)

Scott,

Haven't got my TS yet. Sounds like an interesting argument. But Norm is no longer in the Marine Corps. His arguments, although backed by experience and opinion, are not of the service user.

If I remember correctly, the Designated Marksman is NOT a sniper, although he should get sniper training.

The M25 DOES require more maintenance than any other as-issued rifle in the conventional GP-forces platoon inventory, and will be another specialized rifle requiring maintenance. If the Marines can't fix it, at Division or Depot it'll have to go back to Quantico or Crain, Indiana. But the M16A2 with Green Tip does not perform like 7.62. And if he runs out of M118 or whatever they issue him, the Marines still DO issue 7.62 ball for the M240G machinegunner. Argue or not, 7.62 in either form will out-perform Green-tip ball in penetrating cover. Period.

Even if we bought every Infantry soldier/Marine all the optics and add-ons of the Special Operations-Peculiar Modifications (SOPMOD) kit (now the MWS, Modular Weapons System), they would still not gain anything if they're not on the range or in the field live-firing, no matter what the weapon.

We could take one M16A2 per squad and put on USAMU mods (a flat-top, heavy barrel, free-floated fore-arm, and two-stage trigger, with say a 3.5-10 M3), and the DM would still have only Green-tip ball to shoot. Don't know if you've tried shooting that at 500 and 600 yards, but consistent it's not, even if all you're trying to hit is an E-type (which is the target used for Infantry Match "Rattle-Battle" courses of fire). None of the service teams use out of the box Green-tip for the premier combat event in the country. And it still won't defeat cover like 7.62. You'd STILL have to get the DM to the range for trigger time, which I think is today's force shortfall.

Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki told the Army to lose weight (go from heavy M1 tanks to wheeled APCs in two brigades), take soldiers off of staffs and back down to divisions, and cover more killing ground with snipers and crew-served weapons. Sounds like another dinosaur?

Maybe we should bring Norm back as Commandant, since everyone else in the Marines is such a blind moron.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 15:37:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Pete, I've got the Holiday 99 Campmor catalog open in front of me and I can't find the Fire Ribbon. They're at . They do have 81292-F Fuel refills (1/2 oz. solid fuel heat tabs) at $5.99 for a dozen tabs.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 15:49:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Dang! www.campmor.com
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 15:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Scott; is there some reason they/you wouldn't issue a bolt rifle to a designated marksman? Would they consider that reducing the overall firepower of the unit? Another question from an old has been. What is the justification for not having optics on all the M-16's or at least a red dot sight or some kind. Wouldn;t that increase the platoon effectiveness or not in your opinion? It just seems to me if they have gone to the trouble to work on the cartridge to increase the range they certainly would do just as much or more good with the sights.

bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 16:18:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bill, I agree with you on the optical sights part -- the British Army has them on the SA80, and the SF SOPMOD kit has the ACOG, Aimpoint Comp, and Reflex to choose from; the Australians/New Zealand Kiwis have the AUG, with varying optics quality; and the Germans have the G36. But the bolt-gun (for a non-sniper trained shooter) may be too much gun for a soldier who may not get the time to properly learn and shoot. I think it would end up being another case of conventional force ignorance factor (new lieutenant, not knowing how to shoot, now responsible for sustainment training for their organic Designated Marksmen or un-trained snipers who don't know how to shoot. Squad leaders, who aren't snipers, stuck between a rock and a hard place because they don't want to show the lieutenant and platoon sergeant they don't know how to shoot). That's one of the reasons the Infantry School at Fort Benning years ago was kicking around the idea of a separate advanced marksman or sniper MOS for privates right out of Basic and AIT to learn the M24. Benning's Infantry Sniper School at the time wouldn't have been able to keep up with the work load. I wonder how the Marines would do it even if they had tricked-out M16A2s, and how they'll train the riflemen slotted as Designated Marksmen.

We re-invent the rock all the time. Remember the Russians/Soviets had/have an organic SVD sniper in the platoon/squad, specifically tasked to own the ground from the end of AK range out to 800-odd meters with a "7.62 M14" equivalent, and the SVD is no match for the M25/DM rifle.

Ignorance is a terrible thing, and I don't pretend to mind-read the intentions of the Marines and Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico.
Great discussion, though.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:12:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Scott,

Why did they even come up with the DM role anyway? To be able to engage targets at longer ranges with better accuracy? Does the DM receive additional Sniper/Long Range training? Without training, it doesn't make a lot sense no matter what weapon system he gets.
I think one of the reasons they stayed with the 7.62 round is that there is match grade ammo in that caliber. I have shot some Greentip from the 200 and 300 yard lines out of a NM AR15, and it I could hold the 10 ring at 200yds pretty easily, and shot in the mid 90's at 300, but at 600yds, it was not even close to being competitive. With my handloads, ( 75gr AMAX ) mid to upper 90's at 600yds are the norm with the AR15. Ditto, with my old, antique, M1A, and handloads, or M852. However, the M118SB is not that good.
As I understand it, the M25 uses a special stockliner that is actually bedded to the McMillan stock so that the receiver legs are not riding on the bedding compound, but against the the steel stockliner. As for reliability, I think the M16A2 probably has the edge. My kid shot 1500 rounds out the NM AR15 without a single malfunction last year. I did the same with the M1A. I did break the firing pin in my M1A after 7yrs of shooting though. After about 11000 rounds of live fire, and who only knows how many dryfires.
Why not have LC develope some good ammo with some Sierra, or Hornady bullets for the M16A2?
Seems like a good idea to me, and I am sure that it has been suggested.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.196)

Dave,

Ok, here is my take. As currently planned, the DM is required to carry a DIFFERENT caliber than the rest of the squad. This means he is limited in re-supply and can not use the normal service ammunition, should he need it, by simply scounging some off his platoon mates. Since he is going to be required to carry a different ammunition anyway, why not give him a .5.56 MATCH grade round? At least he then has options should he be two days from re-supply and have run dry of match. This seems to make more sense because you just NEVER know what the situation will be. Why not at least give the guy the ability to support his platoon at all times, no matter what happens?

We HP shooters fire the 5.56 match rounds at 600 all the time with excellent accuracy to and beyond these ranges with OPEN sights. Add a scope and you can do some excellent precision fire. Sure, penetration may be less…but is it really that important? If he has to defeat something he can go to the M855 which penetrates BETTER then the normal .308 round from what I have been told. Hell, if it goes through a kevlar pot at 800 meters it is doing its job. Now I grant you, with M855 he may not get a first round hit at 800 meters. But since he is only suplementing the fire his platoon is already putting out, he can shoot more than once from his position. This is not sniping in the traditional sense. He can shoot all he wants until the target is nuetralized. Chances are he is not going to try to penetrate something that far out anyway. His just there to place fire onto targets that an open sighted rifle can not accurately engage. If he can walk a round into a bunker slit at 400 yards, he has done his job as intended. He ain't a sniper and does not need to be saddled with a highly modified and sensitive rifle. He can support his platoon effectively with either a 7.62 or a 5.56 rifle, but it makes more sense to give him what everyone else has, albiet in a modified form.

Now, even though the DM might be carrying a 5.56 MATCH cartridge, he would at least have the option of switching over to ball ammo if in the midst of a fur ball, he runs dry and can scrounge ammo from his dead or wounded mates. Which is 100% better than having no ammo at all for his specified rifle. Sure, he can grab a M16 off a dead guy, but then he defeats the purpose of having a scoped rifle. The alternative is that he never shoots his rifle unless something outstanding needs shooting, and that option is unrealistic.

If the argument is that he needs a 7.62, I could see it. But not THIS particular 7.62! The M14 is known to be a nightmare in terms of long term abuse where accuracy is concerned. You mention all he need do is walk over and grab some 7.62 off the M240 gunner which is now pretty much the platoon level MG operator. Well, I hate to have to point it out, but the M240 is a 5.56mm weapon. It was made that way so that it could fire a round interchangeable with the current service rifle and it even takes magazines used in the current rifle. So you see, getting 7.62 may not be so easy once in the field and in the thick of it. Besides, the 7.62mm ball is no better than the M855 ball in terms of accuracy, so this is not a really good argument.

No, I do not think everyone in the Corp is a blind moron as you suggest. But those who have to make these final decisions listen to people at the lower levels who have had loving competitive experiences with the M14. Many of them still pine for the M14 because of the cartridge (the age old debate of large or small caliber goes on and that is not what this DM argument is about), but most will admit if pushed the M14 rifle itself is problematic in a combat environment. If you HAVE to give the DM a 7.62, at least give him an updated and reliable rifle. Not a rehashed M14.

I do not disagree that a 7.62mm rifle is needed in Spec Ops units, SEAL units, and for other specially trained operators (snipers) that can benefit from the caliber, particularly since they all carrying specialized weapons anyway. My point is that the Designated Marksmen is still a plain old grunt with a little extra training. He can best benefit from using what everyone else in the platoon uses, only at greater ranges. But if he is to be an effective part of the platoon, it doesn't make sense to give him a rifle system completely outside the scope of that platoon. Or worse, one that will plague him with performance problems once he gets it filthy and wet.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:34:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Scott,
I am affraid I have to disagree with you. If the M-14 is so bad why is it that the SEALS are still using them??? I think the 308 is the better round for the DM and it has more range and power. The old M-14 will still shoot pretty damn well out there at longer ranges than the .223s and when you hit something it usually will stay down. Maybe the M-14 isn't the right weapon for it but the 308 is, and if you talk to a lot of grunts who carried both I will bet a lot of them will still opt for the M-14. Just my thoughts!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:37:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Bill,

My view of the designated marksman, and I believe this was to be his purpose in the Corp, is a normal soldier that can effectively shoot hit targets beyond the expected range of his platoon mates. He is to be able to fill in when against a target, like a machine gun nest, where the normal open sighted rifle shooter may have a hard time hitting. Marine rifleman are expected to be effective to about 500 yards. The DM should be able to hit out to about 700+. The platoon is NOT getting an extra member in the team. They are simply providing one of the team mates with the means to reach out farther when necessary. He is still part of the standard platoon. In short, he is a rifleman. So, to give him something totally different in terms of system and caliber just doesn't make sense to me. The official DM is basically what troops have been doing in an unauthorized manner for a while. A lot of troops take a detachable scope with them and stick in their ruck for a rainy day. The DM is a great idea in that is makes the practice official and like Dave pointed out, hopefully gets him more trigger time.

To answer your last question, I think, budget allowing, (and it won't under the current admin.) installing an ACOG sight on every rifle in the platoon could have its advantages, so long as the regular sights were retained. But it ain't going to happen until the budget allows for additional training and for the units themselves. Even if this came about, the DM would still be a valuable asset because in every platoon there will always be one individual of extraordinary skill who can reach out to where his more average buddies can not.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:45:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

pete,

Tampon´s and gun oil !

you´ll never find more compressed cotton than in one of those, and there nicely wrapped.

just a drop of oil on it,not to much to soak it, some sparks preferably from a Gerber firestarter, Fire !

t
t <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
Fixi´n for a 3 day FTX, in , G3 ermany - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 17:50:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.246)

Bill,

I also have to second Dave's comments on the bolt gun for the DM. Bad idea. It singles him out even worse than the M14,it removes one member from the platoon in terms of mutual fire support and introduces yet another system to the T&E. It is simply not needed when you can just accurize an M16.
Lets face it, the DM was supposed to be a guy in the platoon that could enhance the range of the platoon with out effectiing its current capability. Make him too specialized and you remove his GENERAL usefulness to that platoon. We got to keep in mind, SNIPERs aren't going away. They are still there and we need more of them. But the DM should not be confused with a full blown and trained sniper.

I think that is where the problem is. These seems to be some unsettled debate over the role and definition of the DM with in the training commend structure. I guess my own attitude, right or wrong, is the KISS principle. Keep it simple and effective. Don't specialize him too much and make him a mini-sniper with all that entials. Keep him a plain old grunt with long range ability. It'll be better, I feel, for everyone in the end.

If we are going to send a DM to six or eight weeks of sniper school, then he is a sniper and not a DM. Better to send him to the appropriate amount of school to train him in wind and range esitmation leave out all the field craft stuff specific for a sniper team expected to survive in pairs only. The DM doesn't need the field craft end because he is part of the platoon, and not detached from it. Make sense?

Hey Dave, good conversation! This is the way it should go in the Roster. Swapping ideas with out the abuse. Thanks for the valid questions. I can't tell Quantico what to do any more than the Chandlers, but as a tax payer I can question a decision I feel is based on faulty thinking. They can read this and tell me to go pound sand. But I would wager many of the instructors at Quantico might find merit in my argument.

By the way, the Russians look like they are now fielding a bolt rifle for sniping in the traditional western sense! The SVD will probably remain a DM type rifle as it has, essentially, always been. But their special force units are requiring more accuracy. I however, would have to argue with you, in a gentlemanly manner of course and for the sake of argument only, that SVD is a more relyable weapon system than the M25 or the old M21. Maybe not as accurate of course, although some russion snipers are claiming they could hold moa or better. Still, it does seem to suffer a lot less of the operational relyability issues that have plagued systems based on the M14. According the the article I referenced, there was talk of WELDING the scope mount to the M25 fer christ sake!! ick

Got to run. Good topic today. Perfect for a snowy day.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 18:05:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Bill B, good points. Additional argument points, because from what I've seen with the USMC DM, there's absolutely no way you can use it in NRA or DCM competition, so I'm not sure the "Dinosaur Bullseye Shooter Mafia" influence argument necessarily applies (I'm not saying it doesn't, I said I'm not sure it applies).

Ammo consistency. I agree we need a 5.56mm Match cartridge. Or will it be two, one for the 200-300 lines, and one for 500-600-1000 slow-fire lines? Or one for all lines (back to good, honest-to-God magazine-fed battle ammo which we can also use in combat AND for Rattle Battle)?

Or tighten quality control on Green-tip (after all, it's the US-produced version of a NATO standardisation spec). I don't know -- sounds like more politics and money, and maybe not for this board. Maybe use the Bofors Tungsten-core AP round, but then you'd have to issue another different ammo line to platoon level.

Heck, my own Rattle-Battle load is based on a magazine feed 75 grain Hornady Match, which I've fired out to 600. But my Slow-fire load to buck wind is a single-fed Sierra 80, which is too long to feed from a magazine.

Hear, hear on training and shooting! If your son isn't already Distinguished, it's nice to know that by shooting National Match Course with an AR he has already accomplished more than most uniformed troops in service today have ever done with their organic assigned M16A2 -- at ranges to 600 yards with iron sights.

How about training soldiers to shoot? One of the things Major General Boykin, the CG, US Army Special Operations Command has kept at the fore-front of his quality training campaign is the intent of having soldiers OWNING the ground with their direct-fire M4 or M16A2 from muzzle to 300 yards.

It was a sad day when the last M14 left the squad (when I went to Ranger school in 1981 we had all M16A1s, and 1 M14 per squad during mountain phase. Can't remember if we had them in Benning or Florida, since I always seemed to be dragging a radio or M60). When one goes off in a near ambush, it's like E.F. Hutton's commercial -- you know where the 7.62 fire is coming from.

The SR-25 is far worse than the M25 as far as quality control, in my humble experience as a Special Forces Company Commander who has owned them.

The M240G is the 7.62 machinegun, based on the MAG-58, replacing the M60A3 in the Marines and the M60 in the Army. The M249 SAW is the 5.56. And neither service seems to want to retire the 7.62 machinegun. If it's available at platoon level, a DM gunner can get 7.62 ammo (he'll probably have to de-link it, which is unauthorized in peacetime. Geeze, Louise!
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 18:06:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

More questions.
Anyone own a Remington 40X across the course rifle? Happy with it? I will soon have a spare .308 action, thinking about building something along those lines. Is the Rem. good to go out of the box after adding sights? Or is custom the way to go? How 'bout sights? Any replies appreciated. Thanks.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland , Or, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 18:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.226)

Places to shoot: Central Florida

Name: Eustis Gun Club, Inc.
Has a 100 yd and 200 meter rifle range, and six other pistol and shotgun ranges.
It is about 25 miles NW of Orlando.
Dues are $56.00 yr plus a one-time $20.00 initiation fee.
Must be a member of the NRA to join.
New members are voted in by general membership after a 60 day probationary period.

Club By-Laws: The object of this organization shall be the encouragement of organized rifle, pistol and shotgun shooting among public minded citizens resident in our community, with a view toward better knowledge on the part of such citizens of the safe handling and proper care of firearms, as well as improved marksmanship. It shall be our further object and purpose to foward the development of those charactistics of honesty, good fellowship, and the foundation of true patriotism.

If interested, E-mail me for contact names and directions.

Central Florida <R356C@AOL.COM>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 18:30:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.68)

Scott:
I like you, so PLEASE don't consider this a flame. It's not. I just don't agree with you completely on the '25 issue. By the way, the ARMS guy I called (I think it was Dick Swan, but don't remember for sure) says that the "weld on" mounts are the Brookfields. Truth to tell, I figured that it was a case of badmouthing the competition, but whatever. FYI. Now, I'm not old enough to have gotten a M-14 issued. My Dad was though, (and the M1 Garand too!) and when I asked him about how many times he could recall one jamming at a bad time (in Vietnam) he said he didn't remember it EVER jamming. And he went through the ammo too, had a real nice nest egg of combat pay. I beleive your stated 2.5 MOA accuracy, if you will check the specs, is the MAX acceptable performance before it's reworked. I qualled with a M-16A2, sure, and 600 yd shots with open sights was de rigeur (3 pop ups at 600 I beleive as part of the qual) but would I carry a '25 instead? You bet. No second thoughts, no questions. I've shot my barrel out pretty much in my M1A, and I'm putting together a M25 except for the stock (McMillan M3A instead of M2A). My research turns up the stock liner you were referring to is a Brookfield part. Mine won't have it. By the way, my NM M1A hasn't jammed on me but once, and it was my fault for getting my thumb in the way of the op rod (WAY back when....) Worried about ammo consumption? I shot the M-16 in auto. No way I would with a M-14. Single rounds, and remember how many mags a soldier carried with it (hint, single mag pouches)? Double that and you're fine (heck, they were!). The main thing you got entirely right was the training deal. They aren't snipers. But they can hit! Better training would be good for them, but heck, it would have been great for everyone too. If I had my choice (and as a matter of fact I do) of what to carry between a M-16 and a M-14, well, let's just say a M-14 doesn't jam in blowing sand. Like I said, please don't take this as a flame, heck, this is a GREAT use of space!
WELCOME BACK SNIPER COUNTRY
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Out west in , Utah, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 19:11:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

A simple firestarter to carry in the field that requires no match is some potassium permangenate and glycerine. The permangenate is a purple crystal available at drugstores or pet stores (as a treatment for a fish fungus called ick). A 35mm file can full of the PP and a squeze bottle of glycerine will start a lot of fires. Just drip some glycerine on the crystals and wait a few seconds, instant fire.
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 19:22:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.10.147.75)

On the Designated Marksman thing - from an admittedly inexperienced person.

I think both arguments are good, but there are two real questions: Whether the DM should use the 5.56 or the 7.62mm rounds and if the latter, should he use a M14 variant or another weapon. I'll take them in order.

The 5.56 round is: available to everyone in the squad, accurate up to about 500 yards as is, the M16 system is easy to maintain, and would simplify supply. Its major downsides are that the green tip is wild past 500 yards and penetration is an issue. The argument that HP shooters use it at 600 with good effect is a non-starter because the bullets they use can't be fed out of the magazine.

The 7.62 would be a great round because there is match ammo available and penetration and accuracy are much better 'out there' than the 5.56. The downside is supply and non-common ammunition with the remainder of the squad/platoon.

Overall, I think the use of 7.62 is a better choice. Because he should be using a different ammo than everyone else, and his zeros are established with that ammo, it really doesn't matter whether he is scrounging from the MG or the other riflemen. The better penetration and accuracy out at the edge of his range would, IMO, tip the balance. Also, the DM could provide heavier support to a squad when the MGs are off somewhere else, which the 5.56 wouldn't do. The complicating factor is terrain, where the 5.56 is better for jungles and 7.62 for open and mixed cover. What might serve the Marines better would be to buy some flat top uppers, and issue both systems to two companies in a battalion and see which actually works best in exercises.

For the 7.62 rifle, it would be hard to justify not using the M25. Since ya'll snipers have moved away from it, they probably are sitting on a shelf or being used for training. The support and maintenance for it are in position, and the cost for issuing them is minimal. The cost of obtaining new weapons, accurizing them, and maintaining them would be too high to be competitive. Bolt guns are a non-starter because they are not snipers and need the firepower of a semi or full auto to assist their squad/platoon in firefights.

The idea of putting a red dot sight or Aimpoint on everybody's M16 could be interesting. Since a marine is defined as someone who could destroy and anvil with a rubber mallet, just how long do you think they will last and what do they do when the batteries (and the spares) are drained and supply says "They'll be on the next truck." For the same reason, I am doubtful that the Army's "Land Warrior" system will be effective. Looking at pictures of that thing, with a scope, night vision, camera, and God knows what else hanging off, the only things I can think of is that it is too heavy, too bulky, and much too expensive to issue to all 500,000 combat personnel.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 19:29:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Jim,
If you have the action, you can have an outstanding rifle built right there in Oregon. O.K. Weber in Eugene (541-747-0458) carries RPA and Anschutz iron sights, and Darryl Holland's Gunsmithing in Powers (541-439-2105) can build the gun. You can get darn nice barrels from Pac-Nor in Brookings (541-469-7331). Russ Haydon in Gig Harbor, WA, can set you up with a Jewell trigger. Darn near all the tricks for tuning a scoped bolt sniper rifle on this site apply to an iron-sighted NMC 40X. Most of the bolt guns I see here in Virginia (Quantico, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware shooters) seem split 60-40 between Winchester 70s and Remingtons. There were several for sale at Perry from guys switching to the AR Space Gun (some for only around 1000-1200, with less than 300 rounds thru them, new barrels, and both synthetic and wood stocks).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 19:35:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Are any of you guys using the Becker Patrol pack, either the Eagle or Blackhawk version? I am going to try one and just wanted to hear some opinions of what to expect. I have been using an Eagle AIII up untill now but want to increase my load capacity and better compartmentalize my kit.Can the camel back be removed from the pack and worn seperatly say under a ghillie during a stalk?
I am also looking at the foldable ammunition pouches any opinions there?
Thanks,
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 19:55:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.34)

On the DM issue...

Has anybody here seen the Israeli M-89SR? It's a bullpup .308 modeled after the M-14. I've been talking with some guys at the company that manufactures them, and they're claiming 0.5 MOA with Federal Gold Match. Not too shabby for a semi... The issues about specialization, being singled out because of weapon appearance and report, etc., would still be an issue, but you'd have the power of a .308.

Question on identification of the DM based on the report of the shot... what if the weapon, even being .308, had a supressor on it? I've no direct experience with supressors, but could you muffle the sound of the .308 to sound more like a .223?
Jeremy Dombroski <jdombroski@origin.ea.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 20:33:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.12.170.6)

5.56 v. 7.62 argument, again: in the 70's, the genesis for Army precision weapons was the fact we knew we were going to fight numerically stronger bad guys (Ivan and the Bear). We developed the Dragon and the TOW.

We were taught "If you see it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can kill it."

I know guys who said "I hit that guy four times in the chest, once through the heart (with Green-tips) and he didn't go down 'till I butt-stroked him." If I hit it, I want to kill it, not upset it or get its attention.

No reason for a DM if everyone in the squad (including the 203 gunner) knows how to shoot an M16 correctly. I've hit iron maidens out to 740 yards, iron-sighted, with a standard A2 and irons and Green-tip, without monkeying with the rear sight drum. But you can't depend on the ranking guy on the team, squad, or platoon to be the best shot -- he's too busy commanding. My team sergeant and I were very proud of our ODA's ability with the standard A2, and you can imagine the range improvement they got when the team bought cheap carry-handle mounts and 3-9 Tascos and Weavers in the "Old days" out of our own pockets. Instant reach extension to 600-700 for every other guy on the team. But the 7.62 will defeat deeper into cover the bad guy is hiding behind.

Oh, and yes, if I remember correctly, the SR25 was one of the DM competitors. If it was anything like ours, you'd better carry a bunch of extra extractors. No woory with it as far as accuracy -- ours shot Ball better than it did three different flavors of Match (118, 852, and FED GM).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 20:53:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

All,
Question I have a fairly well equipt system but would like to shrink my group size. I have a .308 Remington 700 on a Accuracy Internation Chassis a Baush&Lomb 10x Tactical with a ParkerHale bipod. I bought the gun in 1990. When I got out of the Army I installed a muzzle brake (yes I know). At the time I had not intended it for much. I have started to get back into the mud on a part time basis, and am wondering which of replacing the barrel or having a false muzzel would be a better choice - both from a tactical and accuracy aspect.

Kevin

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 22:02:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.228.64.77)

Damn it's great to be back to shooting stuff instead of pollyticks.

Question on shooting over snow......yesterday the sun came out after I got home from work. Took the Bolt Tactical Weapon System out in the backyard and spied across the cow pasture. Like to have blinded me. Have never shot over snow before and had no idea the glare would be that bad. Any way to eliminate this problem?

Second question on tracers and AP rounds.......Will they damage a barrel?

Just got to pondering today what I would do if I was a sniper-type dude and had a mission in this weather, wind blowing about 35 at a temp that will get down to 15. Would the mission be aborted or would you just do the best you could trying to dope the wind?

Not having been in the military I don't understand the concept of a designated marksman. It would appear that the engagement distances that the 7.62 would be used for are not the practical distances for troop fire fight. In other words, if you are engaging targets at less than 600 yards, why would you need more than a 7.62. If you do then why don't the services just go to the 7.62 as the weapon of choice. Just take the damn AR chasis and convert it. From what I have seen in the real life battle programs on the tube, I don't remember battles being fought at long distances unless they were armour battles.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 22:19:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.146.164)

Re: DM - Scoping Rifles

I just want to add my two cent to this conversation. As a former Infantryman in an Army (CANADA) that transitioned from FN FAL (C1A1) to C7 (M16A2 w/ A1 sights, and Auto not burst) and then to C7A1 (flatop w/ 3.4x Eclcan C79 scope) I can guarantee that I would bet my life on iron sights, and bitterly object to equiping a platoon with optics. Once we went to the C7A1 the brass was happy - increased range scores, so less training time less rounds fired etc.
But come field time they break, fog, covered in sand. You can't jump them in a conventional sense - so should we just pack all our weapons in samll door bundles that go out befor ehte troops?
We went down to Bridgeport Ca. to play at the USMC MWTC we left our rifles in camp becasue they did not want the scopes broken during field training! Scopes may look good on paper but don't measure up off the rifle range.
A designated marksman or sharpsooter (whatever) with a scope can go a long way to increasing the Pl firepower, but not if the scope is damaged or lost. A throught the top screw mount is the way to go for toy stil have the iron sights if you lose or break the glass or you do not have time to remove it from its padded container (that they require)
As a side note we suffered (and so have the Brits) several friendly fire causalties during LF raids etc. due to the tunnelvision that occurs from the singular use of scopes.
K
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 22:24:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.228.64.77)

Good tip on a fire starter, but you should've told us readers to remove the girl first.

Brian S,

Go with the Badger base. Space the rings to allow seasonally shifting the scope forward or aft as clothing requirements change. With several guns with a standardized Badger base platform you can easily swap out scopes (and rezero) to change configurations as needs demand. Coupled with an MWG ACD (Anti-Cant Device, level bubble) it's nice. I use this setup on a PSS 308 and it works fine to 1000Y. Depending on your faces structural dimension, you may need a cheeckpiece to take up the 20MOA slope. One of my setups just got bedded into a adj cheeckpiece McMil A3 and it's a much more solid cheeckweld, we'll see if it's a verified improvement.

Good Shooting
Kenya <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Beach4winter, CA, USA - Thursday, January 20, 2000 at 22:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.195.195)

Perhaps it would be easier to discuss the merits of a modified M16 as a DM weapon if we got specific about the design. Would such a rifle have a chromed barrel, what length, free float tube, what kind of optics would you sport to cover the gambit of engagement scenarios a DM might encounter...point blank to 700+ yards. How would you ramp up production of match grade 5.56 designed to buck wind and fly straight out past 700 yards?

With the military buying 14.5 inch barrels now, won't a DM armed with a 20+ inch barrel "anything" still stick out just as much as any .308 rifle? I'm guessing those shorter sighting distance on the new carbine will be reducing the average guy's scores out at 600 yrds/meters...is that part of the support for the DM role?

What about the concept of reworking a AR-10T? Looks something like an M16A2, has a whole lot of the same parts, doesn't have the extractor problems of the M25...and with a custom barrel, could probably be a pretty decent 308 DM rifle.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 00:21:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Scott...
on the 15 vs 25 moa taper on the bases... it doesn't change your cheek position.
A total of 25 moa of taper = 1/2 of a mm hight increase!!
Comm'on guy, your cheeks arent that sensitive!

No one needs a cheek piece for tapered bases.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 00:23:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)

Gents,
is anyone using a precision scoped air rifle to supplement their training?Many highpower competitors find it useful,especially for practicing follow through.This is due to the low muzzle velocity which really exacerbates POI error if you let the sights move after trigger break.Plus,there are benefits like home training,low ammo cost,low report,and reduced range requirements.As to that,there's a game called "mini-sniping".This involves shooting 9mm brass at 35 yards.This equates to hitting the 29 inch head to crotch aiming zone of a man at approximately 1336 yards!Does wonders for my backyard....

Hugh
Hugh <feudist@AOL.com>
USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 01:09:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.191)

Hi all!

Chris (or some Finn)
Can you elaborate on subsonic rifle loads? I have a 6.5x55 w/ a "Vaime"(copy) suppressor. With normal loads it sounds somewhat less than a .22LR, But way more than my suppressed .22 rifle or pistol (my mother loves them) which has a report far less than the sound of the "smack" when the bullet hits the crow, with ear muffs on i have "fired" the 11th "shot" (10rd mag) and wondered why i didnt hit...
A friend told me about a special "reduced loads" powder, IMR SR4759, but i am unable to find it in Norway. Also i've read about people using 12-15grs N110, dacron and cast bullets, but havent dared try it.
BTW. Suppressors are legal and can be bought in every gun shop in Norway w/o any permissions or anything.

M14
What is it? A 7.62x51 converted M1 Garand with det. mag. and select fire?

Bolt
Shooting over snow? 1/3 to 1/2 of my shooting have been over snow, never had a such a problem, except mirage can be bad if it is "hot" (>0°C) and the sun is shining, but it is usually thin.
In loose snow muzzle blast blowing up snow can be a problem, particularly if it is very cold, then it melts and freezes on the rifle when you stop shooting, real bad for an MG3 which may very well jam up.
Shooting prone in snow can also be close to impossible, as your elbows or certainly the bipod sink in unless you bring somekind of shooting mat or a backpack, usually one has shooting sticks though (ski poles).

K
engvoll <engvoll@online.no>
Norway -