January 2000

A guy named Jim Bartlett sells non-canister grade powder out of Owensboro, KY. Haven't done business with him before, but he has a nice selection and the prices seem right. Check out his website at www.gibrass.com

I'm looking closely at the WC846 ($64 for 8#) for dual purpose, loads in .308 and .223.

I would also say stay away from the IMR 4064 speed powder he has listed there. It is $90 for an 8# keg, for $25 more you can buy canister grade IMR 4064 at your local supply shop and skip the shipping and HAZMAT charges.

Now if only I can find some dirt cheap Sierra 168's to get my fix with....
Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 05:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.206.184) 

Second off, in the never ending search for cheaper stuff, does anyone know if the M-118LR is specifically designed to be compatible with the M-14 based sniper rifles (correct pressure curve, won't beat the hell outta the gas system) and which powder is used in it? I'm hoping to get some surplus powder that would be great with the SMK 168's and 175's. Thanks for the info, I know one of you guys will have this right off (Dave?)!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Middle-o-nowhere, Utah, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 06:12:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.154) 

1. ALL of the ranges within 100 miles are closed
2. I am completely out of clean brass to reload for ALL of my reloadable calibers. (something like 14 calibers)
3. I have run out of dirty brass that needs to be cleaned.
4. I am positive ALL of my recently unfired weapons have been cleaned in the last month.
5. My wife isn't taking my cometition pistol out to the range, again.
 

6. I am not perusing through SC to glean useful information from all the posters and council here.

Top Rate site fellas! I have learned more here lurking in the last year than I have in many years of shooting. My experience is mostly pistol competition, but drilling smaller groups at much longer ranges appeals much more now, so here I am!

Happy New Year to all, no matter where in the world you may be!

Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 06:26:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.206.184) 

I have met Jeff Bartlett, and he is as good as they get. I bought some LC 223 brass from him last year. About $140 delivered for 5000. I have been using the N140 in the AR, and IMR4895 for the M1A. If I didn't already have 16 pounds of IMR4895, I would buy some surplus and save some money.
Have you checked with Champions Supply in TN for some 168's? what about Widener's also in TN?
I bought all of my bullets at Camp Perry last summer. They are sold at super discounts during the National Matches.

Best Regards,
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 07:08:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.53) 

People for Eating of Tasty Animals????
Like Beaver???

Happy New Sniping men.
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
Kenosha, WI, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 07:41:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.7.27.24) 

One of the things I've been discussing with Bravo off-line is trying to get him to go to Camp Perry and shoot at the Nationals. Guys, if you don't have a lot of vacation time, but want to really get into this long-range stuff, you can shoot the last three days of the Nationals during "Long Range Week." Prone 800, 900, and 1,000 yard matches, using iron sights, service rifles (bring what you got -- M1s, Springfields, M1As, ARs) or NRA Match rifles (anything besides a srevice rifle). The Wimbledon and Leech Match is any rifle, any sight at 1,000 yards. This year's Farr Trophy Match (1,000 yard service rifle, iron sights) was won by Petty Officer (Submarine Service) Jamie Mordarski of Connecticut. Shooting a "Rattle Battle" M14 drawn at random off the Navy Shooting Team truck, he took the honors. He started shooting competitively in February, and got to Perry in August! The last day is the Palma, shot with any iron-sighted .308/7.62 rifle.

Any rifleman can do it if he wants to learn. You only compete with other guys in your classification (you can be a Marksman and be the Gold Medal winner for Marksman Class, service rifle, etc.).

At Perry, Commercial Row has darn near every gadget you can possibly imagine with some Perry Special prices (or they've brought their catalogs if they're sold out of the item you just can't live without). If nothing else, come for a day so you can grab catalogs and buy all those components to practice with for next year.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 16:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17) 

Glad to see that we entered the next century relatively trouble-free. Let's hope and pray that it stays that way.

I really need to get a new spotting scope. My budget is limited to $400-$500 and I want to be able to focus down to see bullet holes out to 600 yds.

Any recommendations ?

thanks

Andrew
Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 18:11:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.15.2) 

Bill Strang <tacsurv6@gte.net>
harrisonburg , va, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 19:21:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.178) 

Do you think that the current IMR4895 is too fast for the M1A? I have been using it for 7yrs or so now. I load to about 2550fps for the 168's and 175's. Accurate as can be. I got Kreiger barrels, and they seem to be holding up very well, with not quite a "one" on the throat-gauge after 2500 rounds. The last barrel lasted only about 4000 rounds before it became a paper-weight. I did try some N140 in the M1A, and it worked okay too. I think maybe the N135 might be closer to the best burnrate.

Best Wishes to you for the New Year!!
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 19:34:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.179) 

Let's get back to shooting again. Subject is wildcat cartridges. Taking stock Sendero's in 300mag, 7mag, 308 and 270 what widlcats would you lkie to build from them?

Also, lets get the gillie suit design subject going again. It got dropped somewhere along the way. I remember a new design coming out of Carlos II that never got anywhere.

Alos, lets start talking about ways to practive for Carlos III.

Have a great year.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 20:19:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.56.226) 

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 21:05:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.13) 

Thanks for the info on the IMR4895. Maybe IMR4064, or even some N135 would be better then? I am getting great accuracy with the IMR4895. It's loaded to 2550fps for 168 SMK, and 175 SMK's. No pressure signs on anything. The primers aren't flattened at all. Edges are still rounded. I got a minimum headspace, and minimum freebore chamber, and am getting three loads per new LC Match Case with no failures at all. I could prob get more, but I plan to use this LC Brass in a boltgun when I finally get another one. It should go another 3 or 4 times out of a bolt gun.

'Lito,

AA2250? Is that Accurate Arms Powder? 2650fps is about what I get from Federal Match out of my M1A's. You got a bolt gun? I found an early Rem PSS with the 24inch barrel. Asking price is $569. Thinking maybe put a Heavy 26 inch Kreiger on it. The PSS is a little too light for volume shooting. Maybe contour the Kreiger like the M24 barrel. That ought to add some weight to it.

Thanks Guys,
 
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 22:41:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.83) 

Yup, it is Accurate Arms AA2520 (not AA2250 ;)...

If you get a PSS, keep in mind that the barrel is a medium weight, with a big step in the contour about 4" in front of the action... and the M24 is straight to the muzzle, with about .20" taper.
I don't know if there's enuff "meat" in the walls of the stock to enlarge it to take the straight barrel... call H-S Precision before you buy it (they might mill it out, ask them)... these projects can get expensive, as the unknowns keep popping up.
Often, what seemed like a good idea, turns out to be the cost of a premium rifle, and what you have is an over the counter gun with a lot of add-ons stuck to it, and you can never get your money out.

For example, you spend 560 on the gun... 400 to 500 on a good barrel, and if the stock can't be opened up, there's another 300-400ish for a M24 style stock (with full barrel channel)... were talkin' 1500 to 1600, and you still got a humped up PSS... and for another 200 or so, you could build a top gun on a 40-XB barreled action, and have something major, with resale value. So walk slowly. It's different if you already have the gun, and shot it out, and are looking to up grade it... then you're already saving 560 or so.

Check with Jerry Rice, I've seen his guns, and they are quite good.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 23:29:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.13) 

Rand Constantine or somebody else I've read said you should go 4 reloads (five firings) from a Lake City case fired in an M14, then chuck the case in the trash (I'm using Lake City Match brass as well, but like Pablito I'd be using IMI if the CMP/DCM didn't offer such good bargains). Are you checking inside to make sure you're not getting excessive case stretch?

Your Krieger should go 3,500 to 4,000-4,500 rounds before starting to open up. A Krieger, Obermyer, Andy Weber (Armament Technology), or other good-name heavy should be the cat's meow on a 700. You can shoot out the tube on the PSS working up loads before having to buy a new (heavy) tube, but I agree with you that the PSS won't do the true volume of an accuracy or heavy practice long-range queer.

Andrew, I doubt you're going to find anything in the $400-500 range that will let you see 30 cal holes at 600 in black targets. I use an 80mm KOWA 821 with a 27X wide angle eyepiece -- beautifully clear, and is probably your best compromise before going to a $2,200 German-made 100mm Optolyth. About $550. Try the bird-watcher websites for data and comparisons on good 60mm and 80mm spotting scopes and binoculars.

Bolt, as for camouflaging and ghillie-ing up, have you thought of spring turkey season? They're incredibly hard to approach, have color vision, process images faster than deer -- and after the shot you take 'em home and cook 'em! You work on cammy-ing up your body and gun, get out in the woods, and get in the mindset for success for keeps. How 'bout coyotes? Just a thought.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Saturday, January 01, 2000 at 23:31:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17) 

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 00:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.204.180) 

Andrew
Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 04:40:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.15.2) 

For the one who needs to know the twist rates- 6mm needs a 8" twist to stabilize the 105 grain VLDs. A 9" twist will suffice for bullets under 100 grains. Lighter bullets generally use a 12" or 14" twist. 6.5mm needs a 9" twist to stabilize the 140 grain VLD bullets. A 10" twist in .308 will stabilize just about anything.
Knowitall <dirkster@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 06:53:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.210.137.166) 

Oh and BTW thanks to all on the info about the 7.62X54R brass. I found a place here in my area that sells Sellier & Bellot Ammo that is boxer primed. Anyone have any exp with this brass, thanks again
Bill <Baggins@aol.com>
al, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 07:03:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.130.117) 

Thanks for the info on the PSS upgrade ideas. I got a bud who just upgraded his old PSS with a M. Rock barrel that is contoured the same as his M24. I will take a look at it, and see how it looks.
I think you and I have talked about ordering a barreled action from Rem's custom shop, and then ordering an M24 stock from HS Precision. Something like this would likely be more accurate than a "non-trued" PSS with a good barrel on it. Short-cuts are so damn tempting!!

Dave L.,

I still got over 20 Lbs of new IMR4895, and 2000 new LC Match Brass with 1500 168 SMK, and 1000 175 SMK's to load. I neck size the brass,
and load it to the same OAL as Federal Match. Sub MOA 5 shot groups are normal. My only complaint about IMR4895 is that it does not go through a powder measure all that good. N140 flows through nicely.

On the Kreiger barrel. It was chambered with minimum free bore, unlike the barrel that came from Springfield Armory. Of course they have to be concerned with their liability issues. All I want is as much accuracy and barrel life as I can get. That should not be too much to ask for, should it? By the way, the Kreiger is a 1/10 6 groove heavy stainless. I have never seen a barrel that cleans so quickly.

Well, I gotta get ready for my morning hike, thanks for the advice guys. Have a great day.
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 13:59:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.22) 

CJ

CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 20:33:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.157.249)

CJ

CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, De, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 20:34:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.30.157.249)

I borrowed my friends Russian spotting scope (not sure if Sibir) and it was useless at 100 yds. Resolution/focus is just no there. It's OK for looking around but not for shooting. Dave L. recommended Kowa and I've looked through a Kowa before and was impressed. I think I'll save my pennies and get a Kowa.

Andrew

Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 21:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.9.172)

I have found the price on the TRG 21 at http://www.riistamaa.fi/sako/eindex.shtml.
it lists the price of the TRG 21 at 1567.44 USD without the VAT tax. Is this accurate? I have seen prices much higher.

Thanks.

Ryan Lloyd <bfg@home.com>
Penticton, British Columbia, Canada - Sunday, January 02, 2000 at 23:47:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.66.179.19)

The sad thing of it is you usually get what you pay for, and optics are no different… but there are some ways to get around the big money required.

There are some things to keep in mind… most spotting scopes are made for folks that aren't as fussy as we are…. And who think spending $150 on a scope is a lot of money… and who only want to look at heavenly bodies (not in the sky!!)… or groups at 100 yards… and most of the scopes on the market fit this category… and for these purposes, they are fine!

The three groups that really push the limits in optics, are the astronomy guys… the bird watchers, and the long range shooters, and I'm talkin' about these folks.
… and from this point on, I'm referring to fine "State of the art" optic, cuz anything less, won't give you bullet holes at 300 yds, much less 1000 yds!

In fine optics, resolution, the ability of a scope to "resolve" or see something, is determined by the diameter of the front "objective" lens… the larger, the sharper... and by the quality if the glass, or mirror.

There are two overlapping laws of optics that define the limit of how sharp the "perfect lens" can be… those are "Dawes Limit" and "Raleigh's limit" 'scope"… both are about the same, and say, in effect that the resolution of a lens in "arc-seconds" (a 1/60th of an inch at 100 yards= one arc-second) is equal to 4.5 divided by the diameter of the objective… so a 4.5" lens can see black and white line grids that are 1/60th on an inch at 100 yds… a 9" lens can resolve lines 1/120th of an inch, and so forth.
Scopes that are made to Dawes or Raleigh's limits, are refered to as "DIFFRACTION LIMITED".
Scopes that are made to this level are the highest sharpness you can get (for that diameter).

(However, to get the resolution of these lenses, the eyepieces must be of equal quality, and that's a big area of let down. With the exception of the B&L, the Swarovski, and the Swift… zoom eye pieces should be avoided, as at the high end, they are soft.)

To get more, you must go to a larger lens.
This is why the spotting scopes keep getting larger. Not because they need the light… they need to keep pushing the optical limits to get more and more resolution.

However… the human eye (If you have 20/20 vision with or without glasses), can only resolve 1" line pairs at 100 yards… If you take a black and white checker board with 1" squares, the average
person will think it's gray past 100 yards. So in order to take full advantage of the 4.5" scope, you need a 60 power eyepiece… if you are only using a 20x eyepiece, most of that $2000 is wasted, and that's why most shooters don't need high end scopes… they just need to "spot" their groups at 100, maybe 200 yards, and for that, a $150 scope will do fine!

Now, there are a lot of junk scopes with cheap objectives around, and regardless of how big they are, you won't see much.

OK… enuff theory… down to more practical things… like how to spend money without getting taken to the cleaners.

At the top of the spotting scopes is the Optolyth 100. There is nothing to come close to it in size (100mm), quality (or price @ $2000 plus eyepieces). Even if you're not using the maximum power this is capable of, the long eye relief of the eye pieces is a joy.

The next group is the new 77mm to 82mm "ED" or "HD" scopes. These run in the $1000 to $1500 range.
One fine bargain in this group is the B&L 77mm "ED", with a 20x60 eyepiece can be had for around $700-$750.
The names to look for are Fujinon, Kowa, Swarovski, Optolyth, Nikon, B&L and the Swift 80mm ED (the only Swift to consider… the rest are POS's)…

The next group of good scopes are the 50, and 60mm also "ED" or "HD"… same names as above, except B&L doesn't make a ED/HD scope in this size anymore. These will run you in the
$600 to $800 bracket, with a good, fixed power eyepiece.

There is a last solution for those that need major resolution for minor money… and that's the small mirror telescopes that are usable as spotting scopes. Their disadvantage is they're a bit fragile, and awkward… so taking them to a sniper stalk is not recommended… but, and this is a big one… the advantage of them is you can get the resolution of the big 100mm Optolyth, and more, for between $500 and $700 with an eye piece.

Those that are often used as spotting scopes are Celestron C90 and C5… and the Meade equivalents. The C90 comes in two versions, one that takes 1.25" eyepieces, and one that takes .96" eyepieces... avoid the latter… there are no quality .96" eyepieces available.
With these scopes… get the best eyepieces they have for them… and you can push these scopes to the limits.

One last fly in the soup… no scope, no matter how good, can see in conditions of heavy mirage, and unfortunately, the bigger the objective is, the more susceptible to mirage it is... so on hot days, over the flats, the 100mm Optolyth with a 70x eyepiece may be the dog of the bunch.

And that's about it... there are no other "magical" $100 scopes from anywhere that'll do what you want, if you want to see bullets at long range (and, of course, heavenly bodies!)

Enuff

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 00:02:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.49)

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:16:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Thanks for the education on optics! I never knew some of these things even existed. Our state rifle team has two of the big Unertl team scopes. I don't think you can see any bullet holes at 600yds with these either. Of course, the mirage was pretty heavy the times I used them.
I use the little Kowa spotting scope with a 20x Long Eye Relief eyepiece. I can see .30 cal bullet holes at 200yds okay, IF the light is good.
Today I was using a Kowa TSN-821 with the Long Eye Relief 27x eyepiece. For $600 or so it is a very good scope.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:21:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.69)

First the price's on the Riistamaa site are correct price's,I have purchased a TRG-21 silencer ( Finnish / aanenvaimennein) and TRG bipod,also a TRG-41 in .338LM.Be aware that English is a second language too them , so keep letter's or e-mail's clear and to the point, the only trouble I had was e-mail's bouncing and misunderstanding due to language difficultie's,you can Fax order if you have e-mail trouble.

Over the other gun's you list I recommend the Sako TRG-21/41 serie's,they are purpose built gun's,for sniping,and the 21 has 10rd mag ,unlike the other's.The Sako TRG-21/41 serie's are in their 1st generation of evolution,the widely acclaimed AW serie's is the 2nd generation of Accuracy International's line of sniping rifle's.
So maybe we can expect some improvement to a already very good SWS, Sako have just recently annonced a TRG-42 in .338LM,it is a product improved 41(more militarised),they are sending me detail's as to the modification's.
 

For The price listed by ,Riistamma,you get the gun,a mag and sling swivel's,and that's it.
Everything else is extra,eg bipod,silencer,muzzle brake(threaded or plain),QD scope mount's(if you plan on using a scope with a 40-42mm Obj len's the med height is about right).

If you have any other querie's RE : Sako TRG-21/41 serie's,contact me and I will help if I can.

Yours Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:40:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.186)

Thanks in advance,
Richard
coonsr@pdq.net

Richard <coonsr@pdq.net>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 01:49:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.118.23.35)

Been hot and windy here in northern Illinois ever since tyrant wannabe Governor Ryan arrived for a New Years Eve party in Chicago.
I guess da Gov. hasn't gone home yet…

Be great weather fer shootin' if it weren't so gall durned windy.
Looks like I'm gonna be needin' some of those piezo-electrically guided bullets.
Anything available in 168 grain yet?

'lito,
If the thorn bush is the state plant of West Virginnee,
then the primary cash crop of Weldon Springs, Missouri is the cocklebur.
 

Enjoying the heat wave, catchin' some rays…
here in the Land of Politics As Usual
 
 

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 02:12:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.31.247.206)

Sincerely,
Jason D. Sparks
"Sparky"
Jason Sparks <Jaybird117@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 03:28:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.41.171)

Are there any cartridges that are factory for the Win mod 70 that are 3.790 or longer? I'm trying to figure out if I can rebarrel anr convert my laredo to lazarroni's .300 Warbird after I shoot the barrel out.
Any help is appreciated.

Thanks, Jeff
Jeff Cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
Memphis, Tn, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 04:44:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.27)

If your heart's set on a whole new shootin' iron that price for a TRG is excellent.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax , VA, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 04:53:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Looking ahead for the New Year if anyone is interested in teaming up for the June SS1 or SS2 course and the Sept. match pre training at SMTC drop me a line. I have a new 300 win McBros rifle I want to use this year.
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 05:01:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Anyone have any experience loading pulled USGI 30 cal AP bullets in to .308? What is the inherent accuracy of this bullet if loaded say Mexican Match to a Fed GM308M round? Finaly, how much greater penetration is to be expected in hard targets verses Matchkings and 147gr ball? I would assume the military had done penetration tests. Thanks.
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
kommi, Fornia, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 07:07:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.147)

mike S.,

I have pulled and fired some of the 30-06 AP (WW II surplus) bullets through a .300 Win Mag before. Bullet weight was funky, don't remember right offhand, but it was in the neighborhood of 170 grains or so. Wouldn't group no matter how I loaded the stuff, 3" was the best it would do. As for penetration, I was shooting through 1/2" plate steel silhouettes at 300 and 500 yards (when I could hit them). Nice clean holes too, my guess is at shorter range they would most likely tear up an engine block pretty badly. No way a Sierra will do as well against hard targets.
Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 09:09:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.207.9)

Stony
Stony Smith <STONY275@aol.com>
Chicago, IL, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 10:19:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.167)

Theres a big difference between "Spotting" the big 4" black splashes a bullet bakes on a white steel target, and the .20" to .30" holes they make in paper. At Storm, I could see the hits at the 1000 yard target with a set of 7x50 bins... it not a challenge.

But the guy'z have been askin' about scopes to see holes in paper... and if you want to see holes in paper at long range, you gonna' need a lot more than a 22x eye piece (and a lotta' clean, quiet air), and I don't care who made the scope.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 11:23:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.78)

I think I may have misunderstood the term canister-grade. Here in Finland you either have canister-powder with specific number/name and load data or you have some bulk powder that may or may not act (because you do not know what it is) like BL-C(2) for example. Of course you can use any powder for which you have proper reloading tables and so forth. -> I was warning about non-descript bulk powder of which one may not have the needed reloading tables etc.

Still could someone explain me clearly what is the difference between for example canister grade H870 and non-canister grade H870. To me it seems that a powder either is canister grade or it is not. And a non-canister grade powder may or may not have safe realoding data available. It seems that there is something that I have not understood properly.

At least here in Europe canister-grade is the only powder that is guaranteed to work as suggested. That is why it costs more. Factories can use bulk powders because they can tailor the loads as they wish. Non-canister grade is usually pretty close to the canister grade, but it is non-canister just because it is close, but not 100% exact duplicate of the canister grade. Unless, of course the ammo from which this powder was disassembled, was in the first place reloaded with canister grade powder. And bulk powder should differ from lot to lot. Canister grade´s idea is that it is consisten´t from lot to lot.-> Any comments or explanations ??

About pressure barrels: I am sure that most max-loads have been also tested in pressure barrels, just to be sure that they are within limits. At least I would test them if I were a powder producer.

Sibir-scope:

Of course you can not get 500 USD performance from a 80 USD scope. I have one Sibir and I have written down some of the good and bad points of it:

Good: Cheap (if it breaks, you do not need to file Chapter 11 for the household), Rubber armored, reasonably compact and light, this unit is better and cheaper than comparable cheap Tascos or Bushnells.

Bad: Not waterproof, max useful magnification is around 25-27X (but usually you do not need much more), Quality is unit-specific, some are quite good, some are useless for almost anything. Short eye relief.

Experiences: I have spotted .338 holes in brown cartoon and in white paper out to 520 meters in a clear day without mirage. With mirage the scope was useless at this distances. Buth then again so were other scopes we had at hand.

Recommendation: If you need a cheap scope for a hobby, this one is better than most lower end Tascos and Bushnells. At least I have not found any that were better. This unit is light and compact, so it is easily carried with you. If you need a sturdy scope for real world use (hostage rescue, military operations), then buy a Leupold. Kowa is my favorite (compact, good picture quality, does not cost more than my car), but 61X-series are not waterproof either. Leupolds with mil-dots are probably most usefull. They start at around 580 USD.
BTW In the USA you might be able find comparable quality Tascos for less than here in Finland. I think Sibirs are ok, but nothing special.

Heikki

Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 13:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.229.255.17)

Bill,
I think it was you who asked about the PSS stock taking a bigger barrel, I had a Hart put on mine it went from 1.25 to .950 at 25" and it fit fine. The VS stock will not take that heavy of a barrel but the PSS will.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 17:10:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

You put a barrel that goes from 1.25" at the receiver to .950" at the muzzle, and it still fit into a PSS Stock? I ran into my shooting bud who has the rebarreled PSS yesterday at the range. He said his new barrel would not fit into his old PSS stock. He bought a new M24 stock from HS Precision. It did shoot nice though. He managed to get an M24 with the complete kit of accessories from Remington a couple of years ago, and did not want to wear it out, so he built up the new rifle on the old PSS receiver. He used a barrel from Mike Rock with 5R rifling.
I don't currently own a bolt gun, and have considered some of the options available. The most desirable idea to me is to get one of the Armament Technology Rifles (AT1-M24) from SMTC, but I gotta come up with about $5000 for it. Not easy with a kid about to start college next fall. But, I ain't givin up yet.

Thanks for your input, and hope the Year 2000 is very good to you, and yours!!!
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 20:19:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.59)

You better get one now. Hear they have been taken over by Colt and will no longer sell to the public.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, January 03, 2000 at 23:44:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.147.19)

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 00:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.34)

The H&K USP .45 is an excellent weapon. To give you an idea how strongly I feel about that, my carry guns have progressed from Wilson Combat tuned Colt and S.A. 1911's, to a Wilson Combat CQB 1911, to a H&K USP .45 Compact.
I've had no real complaints about any of my 1911's, they have had a total of 4360 rounds through them with only 2 break-in jams on my Colt, but they were all heavy pigs that would try to pull your pants down to your ankles with an IWB holster, and sweating all over their fine finishes really broke my heart.
I wasn't sold on the USP .45 at first, but a friend had one at the range, it was light and the finish looked similar to a Glock or Beretta (probably pretty durable) so I gave it a function test. 250rnds of mild 255gr lead WC held weak, inverted, whatever it didn't jam. 100 rnds of 230gr Hydra-Shok, same thing, accurate too, blowing the X's right out of the targets at 15yd! After these tests and doing some drills with it "cocked and locked" I was sold!
Sure, the S.A. pull isn't as slick as my tuned 1911's, it's about 5lb with some creep, but it's easily managable. Magazines are my only caveat ($40-$45 if you can find them!) but, 940rnds later it still gets a huge thumbs-up from me.

Bullpup <blackstratguy@excite.com>
Rochester, NH, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 02:33:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.50)

Jeff <Bunker_king@hotmail.com>
AB, Canada - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 02:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.64.62.78)

mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 03:52:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.148)

Hello I am glad to see someone else from Houston on here. If you dont mind me asking where do you shoot.. I know of america shooting centers rang. I used to shoot sporting clays there but never the range. Anyway, just wanted to say hello and maybe we will run into each other 1 day..

Richard

Richard Coons <coonsr@pdq.net>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 06:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.118.23.35)

Richard,

Yes, I shoot at ASC. longest ranges around that I know of. I was out there Sunday battling the 20 mph winds on the 300 yard range. Gimme an e-mail, we'll do some shooting out there sometime. I'm anxious to get to that 500 yard range, hopefully the wind god will cooperate. I keep hearing rumors of a 1,000 yard range here in Houston, only problem is everyone I have heard this from knows of it, but has no idea where it is! Can you confirm its existance?
Ralph Horne <Stiljade@msn.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 07:19:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.201.66)

Your absolutly right about seeing 4" splats on white targets, Hell I could see them with the naked eye. Problem was the spotters shooting second on the line rarely had any white paint left on the targets and this made it difficult for the second spotter trying to call point of impact. All we could do is hope the shooter made 800 yd head shots or hit the target in the nuts where there was paint left. The 22x worked real well when spotting and giving the shooter corrections when the round went 6 feet over and 6 feet left into the tree line. It worked even better when practicing mildot holds or off hand positions and the round went 25 feet in all directions, followup shots were usually dead on. As far as seeing holes in paper, I usually put 1" orange dots on 8 1/2 by 11 white paper out at 350 yds and I am able to see groups if mirage isn't too bad on that sandy range we use by Ft Dix. If I crank the scope up past 30x though you won't even see the paper. Between the sand blowing and the bright sun shinning in your face your lucky if you can see the range in front of you at high power settings. Anyway I like the idea of interchangeable eye pieces on a spotting scope, it gives you a lot of different options as far as reticle and wide angle lenses go. Also you won't out grow the scope if you desire more power to look at the heavens above.
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 07:44:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

You say that you heard that Colt is taking over H&K? Colt is so broke I don't see how they could swing it.
Colt pissed me off when they quit selling to the public. I liked their pistols, and AR's, but if that is how they feel about the public then I got no sympathy for them. Hell, my next AR will be a Bushmaster, even if I can find a Colt at the same price!

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 13:37:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.76)

I can handle the bedding, and do the Teflon okay. I got a gunsmith bud of mine who has offered to show me how to re-barrel, and true an action. He makes most of his income by producing match components for the AR15.(Barrels, Tubes, sights etc.) He has done some boltguns for guys we shoot with, and they are kick-butt good.

I don't already own the PSS, but I found one for an asking price of $569 without sights, or optics. It is an older one with the 24" barrel.

I had Win Mod70 HV308 that I tuned up for 1000yd shooting, but sold it a couple of years ago. Now I don't have a boltgun. I got an M1A I use for Highpower shooting. It is a good rifle, but I like the idea of having a bolt gun too.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 16:04:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.177)

Fulton armory has a lot of good info on the M1A

for the differences between 7.62NATO and .308 Winchester. check out
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm
 
 

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 17:30:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

I bought the Steiner "Predator" 8x30 binos last year, and they are good binos. I have had guys take the things down-range, and glass the area I'm in, but I could not see the "Green" eyes, although I could see the binos. Steiner makes several different models of binos. I got these from a sporting goods store that was going out of business. I think they make a version of the Military and Marine bino that has the Mildot reticle in it.
These binos focus at the eyepiece rather than having a center-focus knob like most other binoculars. Once they are focused to about 80yds you don't have to move the focus rings much (just a tweek) to get optimum clarity. Resolution is very good. They're small, and very rugged. They are armored with od green rubber. Of course they are nitrogen filled, and water-proof. I like them a bunch.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, January 04, 2000 at 20:35:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.26)

I think Colt has money problems, and could not afford to lose their government contracts, so they caved into the Klinton admin to quit selling to "civilians". They were over the proverbial barrel. Colt's handgun lines had not kept up with the current trend of hi cap semiautos like Glock, Sig, H&K, etc. The AR15 is being produced by quite a few other companies, and has hurt their sales too.
This is too bad, as I liked the Colt AR's, and their 1911's. I hope they survive, and change their policy on selling to the civilian market. I have seen Colt Post Ban AR's now with price tags of $1500 since they quit selling to us. And right next to it was a Bushmaster that was identical except for Company Logo, and it was $850. Now how hard is this decision? Not very.

I hope the Year 2000 is a good one for you.

Best regards,
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:01:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.188)

Stony: I received an email from Dean today and I advised him you were looking for him. First time I have heard from him in months. Hope it helps.

Pablito, Dude you are the 40X King. Hope your new rifle is as fine as the one I just received from Denny's Guns built by George Gardner. Another fine piece in the safe.
 

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:06:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.196)

Please do not flame me with thoughts about why this is important. This is just an argument. We are not planning a crime. This was just a drunken argument over shooting theory and now there is a bet riding on it.

Thanks in advance.
Kesse <mrkesse@netzero.net>
Ft Bragg, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:08:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.38.48.209)

Frank: I'm with you! Colt's been on my ickyicky poopoo dirty diaper list for a while now anyway. If they want to go by prejudiced, segrational policies, I segregate them outta my budget! Besides, it took an angry letter to the CEO to get them to fix my Dad's (new) Detective Special right. For that same reason, I don't buy Ruuuu (in a world of comprimise, some do!), aw, I ain't goin there.

Re: HK USP, or, "why Bravo don't shoot one"
First off, these are excellent pistols. They have one BIG problem though (for me), they're BIG. I'm a short guy, at 5'6", and in my hand (I did the try before you buy thing with 250 rounds and a couple of hours) I had to "cheat" it around just to get a passable trigger finger engagement. Now, I'm not telling anyone not to get one, but if you're of "shorter stature" or have small hands, fondle one in the shop before ordering. This is one pistol that really did impress me, and I don't say that about 1/10th of the pistols I try. Fed like a fire hose, accuracy to spare. Trigger could be better though :-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
middle-o-nowhere, Utah, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 01:10:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.191)

Great show on the History Channel last night.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 12:28:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

I use the Steiner lens covers. They are pretty good, and have not cause any problems. They are attached to the binos so they don't get lost. Not sure if there is a Butler Creek lens cover to fit these or not. Prbably is, but i have not checked.

Later,
Bill <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 12:52:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.59)

Bravo, I have no problem with their size. I am a 5' 5" 135Lb Asian guy. I find the grip to be very comfortable an I have no problem handling either my 40 or 45 caliber handgun. I will admit though that you should get acquainted with the gun prior to your purchase. This should be the case with any gun purchase. One after thought, maybe the reason it was comfortable or that I can handle it is because of my prior enlistment in the service?

Darren
Semper Fi...
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 16:13:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.35)

GOOCH,
I was pleased to read your recent articles in TS. You have a great teaching talent thanks for sharing it with us.

Good Shooting all have a great century!
FRANK <kubikari@goplay.com>
port awful, oregunns, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 16:21:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.214.112.211)

I was looking for some info on the SKS ban/turn-in in Kalifornia. I had heard that only about 400 had been turned in as of the end of '99. I'm quite curious at the fact that there has been no convulsive liberal news coverage of the situation.

Does anyone know what's developing in that arena? Please post a sitrep for us. Thanks in advance.

Semper Fi!
Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
PA, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 17:30:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.32)

Has anyone been watching the news/press on Chechnya? Seems this band of 1200 or so rebels in Grozny have been able to hold off the best efforts of a significantly larger force for quite a while now. The press suggests that even Russian Special Forces are getting chewed up in the fortified streets... (yes, I know how good the press is at getting the facts straight)

I don't even pretend to understand the dynamics that have lead up to this confrontation. I'm not really asking for commentary on right or wrong here...the tactics being used is what I'm asking about

Can anyone comment authoritatively (or with a well thought out opinion)? The Chechen fighters are Muslim...does that suggest that they may have some Mujahaddine (spelled wrong, I'm sure) input or advisors on how to defend from Russian tactics? How much of a factor does the construction of the city (soviet cold war specs) have on the defensive aspects?

Is the RPG really that effective against armor that it prohibits the use of such in urban areas? What roles might snipers play and what techniques would be used to protect one's butt if the opponent has both arty and air support capable of saturating your hide with shrapnel. The rule is "speed is safety" in this situation, right?...how does that get applied to a man with a bolt gun?
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 20:18:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Glad to hear that some guys got off some shots eventually.

Frank from Oregon, I respectfully suggest you contact Dee Turner, who reads the D.R. to get the lowdown on this fun match. You can reach him using dturner@jps.net.

Hello to all the guys out there from Sunday. Dennis D. (saw your post on the USP), Eric/Grasshopper, and Ed E. (I know you are out there!).

Next match is the first Sunday in Feb.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, January 05, 2000 at 22:00:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

Be careful about listening to rumors re: the major gun companies. Remember the hoorah a couple of months ago about Glock and COlt not selling to handguns to civvies anymore and such. Bogus..

Speeking of rumors.. I guess we all learned a little lesson about paranoia with the Y2K deal. Wait!! Is that a black helicopter?

Semper Gumby.

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 02:31:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.145)

http://biz.yahoo/rf/991229/ch.html
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 02:58:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.112)

Wednesday December 29, 3:50 am Eastern Time
Colt's to buy German small arms maker - WSJ
NEW YORK, Dec 29 (Reuters) - Colt's Manufacturing Co. agreed to acquire German small-arms manufacturer Heckler & Koch GmbH for slightly more than $100 million, or 98.7 million euros, the Wall Street Journal reported Wednesday.

The deal demonstrates Colt's continued shift away from the besieged civilian handgun industry, the newspaper said.

Colt's is controlled by a New York investment group headed by Donald Zilkha. Heckler & Koch is owned by a unit of British Aerospace PLC, now operating as BAE Systems.

Colt's plans to phase out much or all of Heckler & Koch's U.S. pistol sales, the Wall Street Journal said.

Colt's began exiting the handgun business last autumn, partly in response to a raft of lawsuits filed in 28 U.S. municipalities.

The combined company would be in a formidable position to compete for military rifle and grenade launcher contracts, John Rigas, a partner in the Zilkha investment firm, told the Wall Street Journal. He told the newspaper he expects the combined company to have revenue of about $300 million in 2000.
 
 
 
 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related News Categories: US Market News

Computer Challenged Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 03:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.112)

You could see the flare ... ?

Glad you had fun, see Ya next time, and thaks for the plug.
 
 

If anybody wants a brief description of the monthly HP Tactical Match at Sac Valley look in SC's Announcements & Calender of Events, or if you want to know more e-mail me.
 

Come shoot with us and have fun.

Dee

Dee T. <deeturner@jps.net>
Roseville, CA, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 03:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.119.27.12)

I know the US Army Marksmanship Unit tested heavy M14 1,000 yard loads in the late-70's/early 80's. One of the results was the armorers drilling a very small gas-vent hole in the end of the gas cylinder plug to vent some gas when they loaded 190-grain Match Kings. The M21 I was issued at Sniper School in 1982 had that little vent hole. I know bunches of guys who use Varget, but I don't know about the H322.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 04:10:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

www.accuracyspeaks.com
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 04:12:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Thanks for the "news" on the Colt deal with H&K. In a recent post I said that I hoped that Colt would survive, and change their minds about selling to us civilians. Maybe we're better off without them.
 
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 04:22:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.62)

Here is a little tale of woe about my brand new Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR M3 Mil Dot: my 308M dial is made backwards!?! The MOA #'s read from right to left instead of left to right like all 3 other dials that came with it! When you put the 308M dial on you can only adjust your POI DOWN from your 100m zero! No real big deal, I was only going to use the MOA scale so I'll just use another dial and cover the meter markings, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how (or why) a reversed dial would even be manufactured. Kinda tweaks me a little bit, spending $700.00 and getting something like that. Has anybody else out there seen a reversed dial, or know why one would be produced? If so, enlighten me please!
 

Bullpup <blackstratguy@excite.com>
Rochester, NH, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 06:09:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.247)

Please recontact via email.
I have the die sets to send but have lost contact with you.

Regards
Darryl
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 06:19:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Tim...
The M14/M21 platform of weapons requires 12,000 to 14,000 psi "AT" the gas port to function reliably. More, and you beat the crap out of the receiver, less and you unreliable ejection, or rechamber the fired case (which doesn't fit anymore, and will need to be pounded out!!)

With 155 to 190 weight bullets, this limits the choices of powders. Powders that are too fast, will reach peak chamber pressures, but not have the required pressure at the end of the barrel. Powders that are too slow, will still have too much pressure at the end of the barrel, even though there is no sign of "pressure" on the cases, and the manuals say it is a safe load.

The result is that fast powders will start cratering primers, before you are up to speed, and velocities will be low. Slow powders will beat the crap out of your receiver, as the speed of the op rod is too high.

H322 is way too fast for the 14 receiver group... it's even too fast for bolt guns, except for light target loads... (but it is VERY clean).

Varget is ideal for the 14/21's, and is VERY clean to shoot (and clean up later).

4895 is ideal for the 155's, fairly good for the 168, and too fast for the 175 and 190's.

Ideal powders are 4064, Varget, AA2520, and others in that narrow burning range.
 

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 11:35:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.91)

Nope not possible, if you look at the .308 dial it is numbered in the opposite direction to the .223, .300Win and .30-06 dials! I'd say Pablito hit the nail on the head.
Bullpup <blackstratguy@excite.com>
Rochester, NH, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 15:40:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.136.174)

In particular,Zeiss Jena EDF 7x40's and DF 7x40's.
 

Cheer's Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 18:20:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.198)

Just got the Lapua 6mm BR brass (1100 pcs)... my God, is it fine... necks concentricity mics to .0002 (Yep 1/5th thou!), and I'll only have to turn off .002 to fit the tight neck 40-XBBR. On the Rem cases, when I finished turning them, I had enuff turnings to make another set of cases :)) Right now Sinclair has a sale, and the stuff is cheaper than the factory Rem/Win brass... I'm going to load up (Pun intended...)

UnDude... it only takes one 40-XB to make you a believer... I've had the one I brought to Carlos so long, it's growing moss on the North side, and it still shoots 1/2" all day long.

'lito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 18:51:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.82)

Here is a link to MSNBC's site.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/351295.asp

This seems to be true. Now the questions is what is going to happen to individual, such as us, who enjoy the sport of shooting and acquiring hand guns? And once again, as we all are aware, how is this going to impact our 2nd amendment right as an individual to own a firearm.

I realize that A), this is not a political bullitin board, B), that this site is about subjects relating to shooting and C), that we have hashed over this before but I fealt it worth mentioning once again.

I guess I have my panties in a bunch right now about this. I have been watching and watching. Now what I feared is coming to fruition. Sorry guys, I just need to let out some steam.

Darren...
Semper Fi and proud of it!!!
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Thursday, January 06, 2000 at 19:39:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.33)

Not to throw a wet blanket on the current "Colt" bashing,... if you feel you need to bash Colt, go ahead... make your life better!

But you should know some of the facts.

Colt is still selling the 1911's, and Single Actions to civilians!
But their decision on the other revolvers is based on the fact that the Detective Special, the Python and the others, weren't selling... and the civilian AR's weren't selling that well.

This is due to the fact that Connecticut is THE MOST EXPENSIVE STATE in the country to manufacture anything requiring skilled labor, and these products had competition from overseas, and other states, and there is no way Colt can cut costs.

Fact two!... Colt is the most sued arms company in the country... and the Attorney General of Connecticut would LOVE to put Colt out of business.

Ruger has their offices in CT, but ol' Billy makes his guns in other states where he doesn't have to deal with unions, and the highest business taxes in the country, and a state legislature that's just waiting for you to fall.

Colt's not stealin' your 2nd amendment rights... we're giving them away at the polls, and this kind of bashing doesn't help the situation.

'lito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 00:22:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.131)

I agree with you in regards to bashing. I am wondering if you read my post as that, bashing? It was not intended to be. I was bringing to the attention of the masses what is happening with Colt and H&K as others have done before me.

You can not help but wonder what is happening with Colt. This also would lead one to wonder that if Colt did acquire H&K what will happen next. In regard to Connecticut, they could move their facilities. It would be difficult but possible. But enough of this. I do not want to get into a debate or a heated arguement. This site is not -- in my opinion -- designed for that. I have pasted a quote that did concern me.

Here is a quote from December 29, 1999 off of MSNBC:

THAT IS BECAUSE AFTER Colt’s buys Germany’s Heckler & Koch GmbH, the American company intends to phase out much or all of Heckler & Koch’s modest pistol sales in the U.S.
Colt’s began eliminating most of its own handgun business in the fall, partly in response to a wave of lawsuits against handgun makers filed by 28 cities and counties across the country.

It is up to individuals to decide how to interpret this. And as for dealing with this, you are absolutely right about us and our voting power. That is why I joined the military during the Bush era. It was to insure the rights Americans their constitutional freedom.

Now I am going to get off my soap box here and fade into the darkness.

Darren...
If you have nothing good to say about someone then don't say a darn thing!
Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 01:01:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.33)

NAVSEA OP 4335

4-10.3 CARTRIDGE, 7.62 MM NATO, MATCH, M118
4-10.3.1 Intended Use. The M118 Match cartridge is used with the M14 rifle. This cartridge is used for target practice and in the Navy Competitive Match programs.
4-10.3.2 Description. This 7.62mm cartridge is approximately 2.830 inches long and weighs 390 grains. The cartridge is loaded with approximately 42 grains of propellant composition (IMR-4895 or WC-846) and contains a 5.4 grain lead styphnate primer.
4-10.3.3 Ballistic Data. The ballistic data is as follows:
1. Velocity. The basic velocity will be 2550 fps at 78 feet from gun muzzle.
2. Pressure. The average chamber pressure will not exceed 50,000 psi. (I think this may be an error and should read c.u.p.?)
3. Accuracy. The average of the mean radii of all targets at the time of acceptance at 600 yards is not greater than 3.5 inches. NOTE: The listed charge weight may be varied to comply with ballistic requirements.

So there can be no more question, WC-846 is a proper powder for the M1A. After all, the guvmint wouldn't lie, right? And thanks to GTW90, for the great loading data.
I've got two great patron saints of riflery here, and for that I'm grateful!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
south southeast of nowhere, Utah, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 01:52:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.152)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 02:36:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 04:28:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.11.69)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 04:47:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.164)

SB23, the new "Assault Weapons" bill, was signed in July of 1999 and was set to go into effect on January 1, 2000. To date, the California Department of Justice has yet to clearly define the class of weapons that will be banned.

The DOJ has recently published its preliminary guidelines for the enforcement of SB23. As these guidelines are written, it appears that any centerfire caliber, semi-automatic rifle, with a detachable magazine, will be classified as an "assault weapon". This new definition is clearly beyond the scope of the initially expected impact of SB23.

In order to protect our customers and our employees from potential criminal and legal jeopardy, Turner's Outdoorsman will suspend the sales of all centerfire caliber, semi-automatic, detachable magazine rifles effective January 1, 2000.

This suspension of sales will remain in effect until the DOJ establishes its final enforcement rules. All customers are urged to contact the DOJ directly with any questions regarding these enforcement guidelines.

Thank you for patronage and understanding regarding this situation.

For more information call the Department of Justice now at 916-227-3703.
 
 

Pat T. <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 05:04:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

"Average mean radii"? Wasting my life in statistics classes and I'm
stumped as hell."

Hey Guy... you shoulda' been takin' Geometery (but the girls in Stat-101 were better lookin', so you weren't wastin' your life).

"Average mean radii" is the average radius of the shots from the "mean center" of the group. It's used my the military to evaluate the quality of ammo, and/or firearms.

Everybody else uses the two outside shots for group size... you shoot 10 shots and the first 8 are in 1/2", the 9th is at 3 o'clock at 1" and the 10th is at 9 o'clock at 2" out... you get a 3" group... not the military... they figure the same group as .5" "Average mean radii".
It goes like this... the radius is half the diameter... so you find the center of all the shots, and measure out to each shot, add them up and divide by the number of shots to get the "average"... so in the example above, you have 8 shots, whose radius is 1/4" from the center, and one that is 1" and one that is 2"... add them up, and you get 5 inches. Divide by 10... and Voila, you get .5" "Average mean radii".
It makes poor ammo look much better that it is, because in the above example, a second batch of ammo that shot a perfect circle of 1" dia, would rate the same as the first group, which actually shot a 3" group.
 

Pablito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 11:49:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.120)

If you have a real big budget and lot's of time, I guess its better than nothing.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 14:47:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

aagGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...........

;-)
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 14:48:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.37)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 14:55:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

PeteR... Me too, Arrrrgggg

No Mas!

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 14:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.120)

Everything I've heard about this rifle has been bad, but none of it has been substantiated by "broad fact"...
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 16:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

I don't so I do.

(off stage sounds the rolling of a distant timphany)

See you after semester.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, January 07, 2000 at 16:39:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Happy New Year! It's been a while since I was on this site. My computer crashed and still has relapses from time to time. How about all that hype on Y2K? What a let down for the press and the commies.

I was looking through my inventory the other day and thought that I might start using my Grizzly .357 or the .45 mag as my hunting pistol for pigs. I usually will use my .44 mag but I want to see some versitility in my hunting handguns, while they are still legal.

I have been working with the Nosler J4 competition bullets in my .308 Win. and I still think Sie