Sniper Country Duty Roster collective wisdom


On scope mounts:


Scott,or??

Why wouldn't the dual dove tail rings and mounts work as well as the MK4s?? There is
nothing to come loose on them, I understand that the MK4s have heavier rings with two
sets of screws but the scope is still the most delicate part of the system. So how much is
enough?? Other than the fack you could remove the scope and replace it easier but if this
wasn't a concern wouldn't the dual dove tail work as well??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 12:55:16 (EDT)


Pat: Dual Dove Tails seem to work very well, as exhibited by the M40A1 mount and, I
believe the Chandler mount - although I am not sure if he uses this system or not, but on
first glance, it looks like it. It would seem that the Dual Dove tail system is as secure a
system as any other!

My personal feeling though is that I would prefer to be able to remove the rings/scope with
out having to remove the scope from the rings and then twist the rings out of the base. I
like the Mk4 Method for three reasons.
One: If my scope goes down, I can install a pre-zeroed back-up in a couple of seconds if
needed. You just can not do that with a dove tail.
Two: If you make it a policy to Lap in the rings for 100% mating contact, you will have to
re-lap the dove tail set each time you wish to reinstall them. As you will be twisting the set
in, the odds of perfect alignment on reinstallation are not good unless you are meticulous. I
am sure you could get them VERY close, but you’d still want to lap them to be sure. Why
would you remove them? See # three.
Three: If you ever HAVE to remove the scope for maintenance, gunsmith work, action
work, or simply to test another scope, it is very easy with the Mk4 system. With it you can
take a scope off and reinstall it with very little (if any) shift in zero.

None of these reasons invalidate a good strong dual dove tail! It comes down to preference
and usage. If a police sniper or military sniper ever need to switch over to night vision, the
Mk4 system is nearly ideal as it allows the user to swap out optics consistently whenever
the need arises. With a more permanent system like the Dove tail, you are pretty much
stuck with one optic for the life of the rifle. Again, that is not bad at all, depending on your
use.

Another advantage that many find in the cross slotted weaver type mount: Many scopes do
not have enough elevation to reach 1000 yards. There are a wealth of MK4 style tapered
mounts on the market today! They come in every price range and strength. In short, the
Mk4 system is simply the most versatile system available - BUT it is no better in terms of
strength that a good Dove tail. If all you envision is ONE scope for the life of the system,
than a good dove tail system is a good option.

Last comment: Before any one gets carried away and starts mounting multiple ring set on
a scope base, talk to a good engineer (NOT a Custom gunsmith!). This new trend of
putting four rings on a base is down right stupid. And unnecessary! There, THAT aught to
get some argument going!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:12:51 (EDT)


Scott - I agree with you 100% on the multiple ring debacle. The only thing I can think of is
the SIMRAD mount was made to place the top half of the ring on the bottom rear portion
of the mount. I started seeing two rings on the front of the scopes instead of the top ring.
This causes no end to zero and return to zero problems. Not to mention that it is a massive
waste of money (Sorry Sam, but if you are mounting more than one set of rings to the base,
then...). The additional torque placed on the scope tube is totally unecessary and could
damage a perectly good scope. Yes, lapping will take care of the fit, but most shooters do
not know about lapping and only follow trends that, could in the long run, do more damage
than good. Thus, Scott your statement and warning are very valid and prudent.

Just a quicky this time guys.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 18:24:28 (EDT)


Pat: I've been useing duel dovetails for about six years and have not had any problem with them. The weak point in most mounts is the tiny little screws that you attach them with.

Pat
Pat L <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, Utah USA - Sunday, October 11, 1998 at 21:52:56 (EDT)


Kodiak, you asked me about the Leupold QRW rings a month or so back, I have found them unsatisfactory. The ring holds the scope tube well with no movement but the ring to base clamp comes loose with every shot, and I cranked them down as tight as they would go. Return to zero seems close but my scope isn't holding adjustment so I really don't know what it's doing.

Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Tuesday, November 24, 1998 at 20:31:53 (EST) 


Read and have tried to digest all the Hot Tips on scopes.

Don't like the Mark 4 mounts. Can't afford the Badgers right now. Been using the STD's with no problem. Are the dual dovetails that much better than the STD's?

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, November 26, 1998 at 15:45:28 (EST) 


About mounts, the dual dovetails are an inexpensive alternative to the MK4 type mounts. If you will not be taking the scope off that is. You lose the ability to use iron sights and change quickly to another scope such as a NOD. You will be limited to using a Simrod type mounting NOD and that means a MK4 type scope and alot of cash. So if you are going to spend it on the scope why not a little more on the mounts. Also everytime you take the rings off the dual dovetail mounts you create a little more clearence and thats not good. About standard mounts in a word DON'T. They are not strong enough for sniper use. Look at that little rear screw that controls side to side for the rear ring. Would you want to stake your life on it. Bottom line is don't be cheap. Get the best you can afford.

Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Thursday, November 26, 1998 at 16:16:40 (EST) 


A type of scopemount that have served me well are the "original"
mounts made for the dovetail receivers on Sako and Tikka rifles.
They have a synthetic bushing (same style as some Burris mounts)
between tha steel rings and the scope tube. You will never get
any problems with out-of-line rings or damaged scope tubes.

Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
BC Canada - Thursday, November 26, 1998 at 23:11:09 (EST) 


Also, since we are talking about scope mounts: I have recently purchased a MO's 1000yd bridge mount. The rings that I currently have (Burris I think) are not high enough to allow the removal/instalation of the scope with out taking it out of the rings. The objective bell, front and rear hit the mount when I try to slide it off. As I need to shoot both open and optics for matches, I need to conveniently install/remove the scope with a minimal zero shift. The reason for the bridge mount is that I was told I do not have enough elevation in my scope as is to reach 1000yds.
Any help is greatly appreciated. I would prefer that I get e-mailed as then I can save or print the advice for future reference.

syeve uhall <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
south west , pa USA - Friday, November 27, 1998 at 00:52:13 (EST) 


Steve Re: Rings for 1000 yds, I have a Rem 700 V which is almost stock.Only have bedding and some trigger work done, use a Leupold 4.5x14-40 with Burris Pos-align rings on Leupold bases. Works great!Of course, I am shooting a .308 and the recoil doesn't bother those plastic inserts. Have been told that those rings also work on other higher powered rifles.

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Somewhere in the South, USA - Friday, November 27, 1998 at 04:05:29 (EST) 


On scope mounts!!!!!!
Would like to get a discussion going on bases and rings you have had good success with on the following weapons:
Rem. 700 LA and SA
M1A-sorry guys, can't bring myself to get rid of it yet
AR15
Not cost issues, just servicability and availability.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 16:58:02 (EST) 


Bolt,
I use the Leupold dual dove tail and they work great!! If you want to swap scope's around then look at the MK4 or other such mount's .
I use the Springfield 2nd Generation mt on my M1A but I must admit I have not shot it a lot. I have heard both good and bad about it .

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 17:46:22 (EST) 


Now I have question for someone out there. On my rifle the foward screw on the rear scope mount keeps coming loose(.308) The first time i installed it i used hoppes screw lock, the second and now 3ed time have used the red lock tight. At this time is's shooting great but the last two times at about 80 rounds it came loose. Any Ideas why out there.
The rifle is 110FP Savage with millet scope mounts.
Great to be home,
Stagger 10-42

Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
not in Arab, Land USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 22:57:05 (EST) 


M1A Scope Mount

Bolt,
I must admit to having a early M 305 Norinco Knock off M 1 A serial numer 000328. They must have taken care in the early days of producing these, it is well made, shoots 3" groups at 300 Metres out of the Magazine ! The only thing I burned in my front yard was the banana-case-wood stock. Have a oversized SM Fiberglass stock on it now. Bedded the Action, reamed the flash hider, did the trigger, epoxied the gas piston housing, cut of the little tang that holds onto the front part of the stock, and epoxied the thing in place. Plus all the other things.

The mount I use......... No first this. In 88´ I worked for the company that imported the Springfield M1A´s into Germany, along with these we received the Aluminium Scope mount´s in the regular, and the beefed up style that screws into the clip guide. We/ our customers had problems with these mounts shooting loose, so upon one visit Dennis Reese CEO Springfield showed us how this was suposed to be done.
1. take the stock off, 2. find a nice pice of wood to put under the right side of the receiver. 3. screw the mount on finger tight, 4. Whack the s... out of the big screw with a leather mallet, 5. tighten again, repeat 4. and 5. until mount is seated/mauled into the guides of the receiver.

With this hi tec version fresh in my mind I set of to make my own mount.
Piece of angle iron cut and filed to the shape of the clip guide mount, MK IV bases on top, but I changed the T guide on the Aluminum Mount to having three M5 Allen (worm?) screws that grip into the side of the receiver. Now I can adjust the mount for cant and windage and after doing so and locktite´ing the little buggers in place I have a rock solid repeatable mount that is one of a kind.

Sorry this got so long !

"Ende"
Torsten <Lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 07:49:44 (EST) 


More on the M3A. Mike Lau refers to two different MKIV bases for the Leupold system in his reference book. Does any body know if there are seperate bases for the M3's that may allow a more precise zero? What about shims?
Ding
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 08:15:31 (EST) 
Ding,

Theres a buncha mounts with a built in taper for elevation corrections ( certainly with more to come as UKD rifle shooting reaches its peak) at longer ranges. MWG, Badger Ordnance, etc. etc. which you can find under another S/C column + the product reviews.
I'm using a standard MWG base w/o shims or such not as the chances of me finding a range past 800 yards is limited along with long range practicing ability. Some say the secret is to make certain everything (base & rings) are installed in alignment with the bore and making certain the scope is optically centered before zeroing.
Theres my 10 cents worth.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, By-Gawd USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 09:30:53 (EST) 


Ding! Baby! Shims! Go to www.armament.com and check out Andy Webber's tapered scope base shims. About 20.00 and you use your existing scope mount. Badabing, badaboom. We'll keep you in the black dude.

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 16:51:13 (EST) 


Ding:

In addtion to the suggestions of Gooch and PeteR, you might consider Baer tapered bases. Their claim is to provide approx. 20 MOA extra scope travel. They are two peice weaver style bases that are well made. Price is 65.00 per set. They can be ordered from Lightforce USA. 425 656 1577. They are available for M700 Rem and M70 Win. rifles.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 20:24:26 (EST) 


Maybe I am behind the curve on all these high-tech bases and rings but I just can't see spending $200+ when the Burris Signature Pos-align rings work so darn well !!! Have them on both the Rem 700V and the other "R" word rifle and soon to have them on a Rem 700VSSF also in .308. Everything I have ever had to drop with one well aimed shot has fallen with the .308. Sure it would have been nice to have maybe a little more but.....12Ga does wonders too !!! So does 81mm indirect support !! Oops, not suppose to call that in for deer hunting !!

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 23:02:52 (EST) 


Will; After thinking about it I think if your hunting or shooting informally probably not! But if your shooting serious targets you simply need to do everything known to the science to ensure the reliability of your shot and equipment under all kinds of temperature and weather conditions. If I were the hostage.... I would want you to have a steady system. Systems are now go for a professional opinion... over!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 01:19:10 (EST) 
Help!!! Does anyone make tapered bases and rings for the Winchester Model 70? Mine "internal scope elevation" run out of elevation at 400 yards and I'm shooting 165gr ballistic tips at 3220 fps, not exacticly a huge drop or anything. Everything I find only works with remington or will not work with my 56mm objective"clearance of bell to barrel problems". please E=mail me with any help or addresses'
Jeff Cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
memphis, tn USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 00:02:57 (EST) 
To Jeff Cooper, re.scopemountingproblem on a M70LA.

Get a regular EAW QD-mount with the highest rear ring. The front ring pivotes for hight. No need for any shimming, etc. The QD-thing works great.
 
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 08:11:17 (EST) 


Jeff Cooper: You should buy Badgers or Leupolds Mark4 bases, 20 MOA shims from Armament Technology and high or extra high Mark4-type rings from Bagder. All contact info can be found from Sniper Country. The whole set will cost around 200-250 USD, but it will solve your problems.

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 13:12:23 (EST) 


Question on scope shims:

I just put a Leupold Vari-X II 3-9 scope on my Ruger 10/22. With the elevation dialed all the way up, it still shoots 5" low at 25 yards. So I'm thinking of getting a shim for the front rings. Is there some formula that gunsmiths use to determine the proper shim height, or is it just trial and error?

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 15:46:00 (GMT) 


Bach Melick: There is a formula...but for the life of me I can't remember exactly what it is. Something like .001" shim equals 1"@100yrds. I am sure someone here will know what it is. Had one of my scopes shimmed and it definetly made a difference. Too much shim can overly stress the scope. Also heard about a set of rings...Burris, I believe, that have oval inseerts in the rings that allow for both elevation and windage adjustments. Not as cheap as shims but cheaper than tapered mounts. Also heard of guys using pieces of tin foil or beer cans for shims.
 
Eager Pup <F_GNLVR@hotmail.com>
a balmy -2C, B.C., Canada - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 18:21:57 (GMT) 
Bach,
First, remove the scope and make sure its reticle is centered in the scope body.
I know HUH? By-Gawd Dude have you flipped?
Nope!
Place a 1/2 or 1" dot, (Pabilto's muzzle covers work great) on a normal sheet of paper. Put this at 25 or 50 yards downrange from you. Center the reticle on the paper n' dot and slowly rotate the scope body clockwise adjust windage and elevation until the reticle stays centered on the dot. You can use Vee blocks, or a piece of wood with a 1" hole bored and then split in two equal halves to hold scope.
It could be done with the rifle secured in a vise and scope ring tops removed in a pinch. BTDT many times
I once had a Spaz work associate that used to set up rifles for T&E's without centering reticles, and caused me more grief than you could possibly imagine.
Start with scope, then go to base n mounts, shim as a last resort.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, STILL FOGGY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 19:10:10 (GMT) 


Re: shimming scopes for more elevation

Bach and Eager,

The formula is simple, but hard to put into print. It goes like this: (inches of change needed ÷ 3600) Xs the distance between scope rings (C-T-C).

For instance:
Suppose you want to change the point of impact by 25 Min. of Angle (which is 26.179" at 100 yds). Divide 26.179" by 3600. This equals .0072 inches. Now multiply .0072 by the distance between the rings, we'll say 6 inches. This equals .0436". Therefore the shim thickness needed in this case is .0435". Now that we know just what is needed, the best way (in my opinion) to execute the deed is to put a very narrow shim in the lower third of the scope ring. This will help center the scope without binding it. Now put a dab (¼" ball) of epoxy on the shim and also into the front ring. Insert the scope (waxed) and press down lightly. Take it out the next day and clean up the overage. This will "bed" the scope and will solve several problems at one time. The scope will now fit the rings perfectly, and the rifle and scope will be unstressed.

Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 00:09:48 (ZULU) 


Shiming scopes... Ron's sugestion is an excelent one, however if you wax bothe scope and the inside of the rings (with Pam, or carnuba wax), if you want to use the rings on something else... the epoxy "shells" will pop right out, giving you a new start.
 
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 00:30:59 (ZULU) 
Bach - Shimming a scope can be done but if it winds up requiring more than .020 you can actually bend the scope body. The Burris Signature rings with the Pos-Align offset rings can solve this problem. A .020 offset or shim will move the scope approx. 14 minutes of angle.

Bruce Buell, NCDS
Bruce Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jax, FL, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 02:02:12 (ZULU) 


From what I gather, it would be better for me to shim the entire base, and not just one of the rings? Armament Technologies' tapered shims sounds just like the way to go. Once I get my scope back from Leupold, I'll check everything out again, and then mess with the base / rings if necessary.
Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 15:27:35 (ZULU) 

Back to Hot Tips & Cold Shots