Sniper Country Duty Roster collective wisdom

Savage rifles:

What is acceptable tactile accuarcy? I mostly shoot at the range and do a little bit of big game hunting, wild hogs and antelope. I am getting about .75" at 200yds with my savage tactile. My load is 168 serria match bullets over 45.5grs. of ww748. Brass is all comercial r-p necksized. function is flawless. Stock is a choat varment and optics ,
luepold 4.5x14 trigger is set at about 4lbs. Any hints on ways to increase accuracy. I have appox 800 rds thru this weapon. thanks for the help.
Larry
larry <tmhorn@hotmail.com>
wwd, okla USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 00:28:26 (EST) 
Larry, .75" at 200 yds and you want to know how to improve accuracy? What, your not hitting the head of the nail dead center? Wait, you're right. Send that non-shooting Savage to me. I'll give you a hundred dollars for it sight unseen just to get it off of your hands.

Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 01:03:23 (EST) 


Larry,
Ok,ok,....$150.00 and thats my final offer, those other two are trying to rip you off!!! All kidding aside, if you gun shoot's .75 at 100yds thats plenty good enough for tactical shooting. You need to check your gun at longer ranges also so you will know that the load and rifle are capable of the same type of accuracy at say 500 or 600 yds depending on the range the match is. Bench rest accuracy is not a requirement for tactical shooting but it's nice to know your rifle is going to do better than you. As gooch and Rick will tell you, tacticl shooting is a mixture of all types of shooting from sometimes unorthodox positions and at unknown range's in real shitty condition's and that's why we love it!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 11:04:49 (EST) 
Heck Guys,

Even if that Savage grouped "poorly" (1.75" at 200 yds) it would still be a genuine keeper! I up the bids $50.00, Hey what is this E-Bay or somethin!

Larry, Don't change ANYTHING with that firestick if it consistently shoots that well,

NOTHING,

GOT IT!

Oh, by the way what are you neck sizing the brass to?

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 11:38:36 (EST) 


Larry, Larry, Larry - I've been trying to tell these guys forever that a Savage can and WILL shoot groups like yours all day long but, will they believe Sarge - Noooooooooooooo! I also have the 110FP in .308 with a Tasco SS10x42 and a Harris bi-pod. My handloads are the 168 gr. MatchKing, Federal Gold Medal brass, Federal GM210 primers and 41.0 grs of VV140. This set up has almost identical perfomance as yours! At an average of 2650fps it is only 50fps below factory Gold Medal!
These are really great guns if you can't afford the one of the AT's or a Chandler, etc, etc, etc - hell they're a great gun even if you can't afford a (shake, shudder, wheeze) Remington PSS (just kidding, sort of!) Keep up the good work Larry and as the guy's are saying - shoot it at the longer ranges so you KNOW its capabilities.

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 00:14:36 (EST) 


Wow!!!!
Thanks for the imput. I sorta thought that was decent accuracy,
but with all the stories about one hole 500 yard groups I just had to ask. next project is 1st shot accuracy with moly coated bullets. I think I will try midway moly bore prep or coating the bore with some sort of a moly and lube mixture like sweetshooters. I didn't mean to act like smart alick on the accuracy question I was just courious. You ask the time of day around here and EVERYBODY tells you how to build a watch. And no it's not for sale. Thanks for the help. this is a great site. adios
Larry <tmhorn@hotmail.com>
woodward, okla. USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 01:19:07 (EST) 
RE: Savage 110FP/10FP

Ron,

The Savage is a good rifle, especially for the money. The only downside to it (in .223) is that you need to watch the rifling twist rate. On the older ones, they are 1:12, which is too slow for the 69 grain match bullets. The newer 110s (and all of the 10FPs) are now 9" twist.

Another small "tweaking" note: Torque the receiver screws down uniformly and use some Loc-Tite on the screws. I was in a course a couple of weeks ago with two fellas using 110s. On both of them, the screws backed out and caused a rapid changes in zero. It was finally isolated in Day 3....

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park, GA USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 02:46:39 (EST) 

Hello,

I have a question about the Savage 110 FP rifle and long-action rifles in general. Do any of you have any experience with these type of rifles jamming? I recently read a sniper's comment that unless the ammo is pushed all the way back in the magazine, long-action rifles tend to jam. Is this typical? I intend to purchase a rifle soon and want to know if I should consider a short-action rifle. Are these any better for that matter?

Thanks,

Marshal Childers
HavredeGrace, MD
Marshal Childers <mchild2@erols.com>
USA - Sunday, January 03, 1999 at 21:38:38 (EST) 

Marshall: my experience with the 110 fp is anything but Jamming. Usually the .223 is kind of finicky about feeding and that model is excellent compared to a short action Remington as far as getting jammed in the magazine. The .308's I've used were also excellent with the long action contributing to the ease of loading. I had no problems with it at all.
Bill Wylde; Old sport you have sunk to a new low hanging out around here with these outlaws! But we could sure use your advise! Sorry we missed snow out here it sounds like a ball. Good to hear from you again!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 04, 1999 at 01:35:04 (EST) 
I wanted to announce to all of you here (especially Savage afficianados) that I am teaming up with Savage to provide a special course this Spring just for Savage shooters.

No, I'm still using the Remington action in my custom-built rifles, but I think you'll all agree that there is no finer out-of-the-box rifle than the Savage Tactical. And topped off with a good scope (Leupold, B&L, or even the Burris), it is a tack driver.

Bill Martin <lodmail@lodtraining.com>
USA - Friday, January 08, 1999 at 21:53:29 (EST) 

Billy Martin:

Reference your comment, "there is no finer out-of-the-box-rifle than the Savage Tactical".

You've got to be kidding me!

First of all, the trigger is crap. It falls out of adjustment after less than 100 rounds, unless you use ample amounts of 5 minute epoxy on the screws. That usually gives you another 200-400 rounds between trigger adjustments. Thats efficient.

The stock forearm is about as rigid as a piece of Saran Wrap. When you do pull it out of the box, you've got to pull it out of the stock and route the barrel channel out so the barrel doesnt make contact. Even after you clear the barrel channel out, you have to fill the forearm with some type of stiffening compound such as bisonite or devcon to get some forearm rigidity.

And if its such a "fine" rifle, why dont you build your company rifles based on Savage actions?

gunplumr <gunplumr@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 18:30:29 (EST) 

Sarge peers directly at gunplumr and FIRES:

Hang on here hos'. The Savage may not be the "finest out-of-the-box" tactical rifle Billy says but its no reason to get hostile! And IMHO, I own 4 Savages everything from a .22LR LV, a 110FP in .308 to a 112FV in .22-250 and a 110FM in .308, they are as good OUT OF THE BOX STOCK no work of any kind, as any other manufacturer out there. Yes the trigger needs work - but I've never had ANY of the triggers "fall out of adjustment" on any of my Savages after I don't know how many rounds! And as far as the stock forearm being "rigid as a piece of Saran Wrap" I don't know again I have 4 and NONE of them has any problem with the forearm touching the barrel! In fact all four of these guns shoot better than I can - and I shoot pretty well! I've also had Remingtons, Rugers and Winchesters that I didn't find all that accurate either. In fact had one Remington .30-06 with a wood stock that had to be bedded before I could get it to hold one (1") groups at 100yds. None of my Savages are bedded!
Well here we go Savage bashing again!

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 18:56:34 (EST) 

Oh and I forgot to mention accuracy. Well I could say my 110FP shoots .5 inch groups but that is subjective. Lets just put it this way I can shoot the hell out of soda cans all day long at 200 yds.

Sarge

Sarge <yea...yea>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 19:02:44 (EST) 

Now hold on!!! I have several Savages and I would like to say that since I am the top firearms trainer in this country, that they have been great. All of them shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards and I would trust them in combat. I have served in three wars and I know what it takes.

If any of you snot nosed kids want to test me, we can have a shoot off where you shoot your chandlers, lous and what ever else and I will shoot my stone stock Savage .243. Any takers?
Chuck Taylor <ct@asi.org>
Ristour, Texas USA - Saturday, January 09, 1999 at 19:14:10 (EST) 

I may not agree with you on your choice of "best" trainer, but I do agree with you on the Savage. Shit hot. And if you don't have $3,000 for my rifle, it's the way to go. Even a sub-gun man like you can agree, Chuck.

Bill Martin
President, Line of Departure Training Associates

Bill Martin <lodmail@lodtraining.com>
Houston, USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 00:22:00 (EST) 

Sarge (again) Savage bashing: New triggers can be installed on the 110 and 112 Series Savages. That will make you group size get even better. As far as practicality goes, the ugly knob at the end of the barrel is the most logical and stress free way of attaching a barrel to a receiver. I'll still take my Sako action - Douglas barreled - McMillan stocked paper punch.

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Taking a Chill Pill here in the Sunny Chill of Northern , O-Hi-Er USA - Sunday, January 10, 1999 at 21:06:40 (EST) 

Guys,Guys,
Whats all this bickering about?? MISTA GOOCH or Rick said it all a while back, "ITS THE MAN BEHIND THE GUN THAT MAKES IT SHOOT"!! There are both good and bad in all brands, but like many of you, I find it hard to believe that out of the box guns are shooting one half inch at 200yds consistantly. We all get that occasional group that we like to brag about but that doesn't make it a quarter minute rifle because we got lucky once. When you shoot 5 or 6 5shot groups at a 200yds and the average is .5 then you have a rifle that shoots .5 at 200yds in my way of thinking. Just my opinion,for what its worth. By the way did I say I thought Savage sucked!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 09:18:45 (EST) 

Sarge; It's one thing to shoot a good group and another to hit a soda can at 200 meters! One is bench groupin and the other is good shootin.

Pat;I've got 3 out of the box remingtons that are guaranteed not to shoot 1/2" every time. As I've said in the Archives. If your gun shoots 1" one time and 3" the next you have a 3" gun not a 2" er.
If it shoots under 1" 99 percent of the time it's close to a 1" gun.
That included the first shot out of the cold barrel by the way!

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 10:39:12 (EST) 

On the age old Savage issue. I'll reiterate some comment's from months ago. The Tactical is a fairly capable rifle, given it's limitations. A new stock is certainly in order. I do not care who says otherwise. That factory stock, while serviceable in the most basic manner, is not up to speed for real tactical environments. NOR was not meant to be! The pillars helped to be sure. But it is by no means hard-use capable. Further, the rifle may shoot well with the stock at the rifle range or on limited field outings - target plinking and prairie doggin'. But the barreled action is capable of better and static bench shooting is not the same as shooting in the field from oddball positions. Most rifles in the right hands can shoot well off the bench. Given true field conditions, with stresses applied to the fore end, goo in the works and ugly condition abounding, bad things can happen. Even to QUALITY after market stocks, which the factory 110FP stock is not. God forbid you used a tight sling hold if that is your particular preference. You will pull the fore end all over the place. A beefier stock can only improve things.

Savage uses the stock it does to provide you with an affordable decently accurate rifle. Where they to install a stiffer higher quality unit, the retail price would be raised accordingly and this would put them in line with some of the higher dollar factory rifles - which would move them out of the market they currently have - a lucrative market they enjoy. Some conjecture: Savage smartly considers their reputation, deserved or otherwise. They see that a $600 dollar 110FP with a top notch stock can not compete with an equally priced brand X due to Perception. They then choose to keep the status quo and sell gobs of rifles with the stock they currently have. Why? Because for the current price, it sells. Ron Coburn is a good businessman. He ain't stupid. I think of the 110FP in these terms: a good barreled action waiting for the right stock. If you buy one, just consider that factory stock a gimme. It came free with the action. Replace it when you can afford to, or shoot it as is if all you do is plink.

I can not speak about the Savage trigger issue as I have not played with it enough, but there will be good after market units soon. For a guy stuck on a limited budget, you can not beat the 110FP, or 10FP. They shoot well and are upgradeable. Would it be my fist choice if I had unlimited funds? No. Not today at my age and income level, but if I were 22 and fresh out of school, looking for an accurate rig to play with, certainly. But until I beg borrow or steal a Savage and live with it in a field environment for weeks, I can not discount it wholesale. If some of you have done so, and I mean REALLY used the thing in the field (be it in training or police work), please comment here on you experiences. I do not care about this range-shot group or that one. I do not care if you think it is the cats me-effing-yow. I want details on real field use, in weather, mud, rain, and crud. Dragging it around. Dinging steel (or gray matter) from 75 to 1000 yards. Ideal range conditions do not apply on Sniper Country. If the 110FP has held up well under those conditions, in completely stock form, we need to hear it. My guess is that it could not due in part to the stock. But I would be happy to be proved wrong! I have no beef with the big S as a company and believe they fill a niche. And more power to Coborn. He has really brought that company around.

To give credit where it is due: I have fired a friends 7mm Magnum with an after market stock that would hold an HONEST .7 moa group in all conditions tested. No BS once in a life time group. I fired smaller groups with this rifle, in the .4 to .5 range, but the group average was .7moa. No bullshit benchrest 200 yard groups. Just honest performance.

I have repeatedly heard other posters on this site say that they have Savages (and other brands!) that will shoot ½ moa or less at 200 yards and beyond. Sure, we have all done that. But every day, day in and day out? In REAL conditions? I seriously question the validity of such a statement. Especially when worded to appear as though every one of this or that persons personal rifles will do this, or that this or that brand will do this. Those kind of statements bother me because when coming from someone who sounds like he knows his stuff, or is known to be an authority, novices will run out and buy something based on that opinion. They in turn are greatly disappointed when reality hits. Worse, they may come to believe that their skill can never be good enough because they can never match this mythical goal. And there is the rub. Wild claims can be made. They can help improve ones standing or reputation. They can certainly sell a product. But the real loser is the reader or prospective buyer who may not know any better. In the end, making claims of this nature is a disservice to the people one intends to help or inform. It can be interpreted as a way of keeping oneself ahead of the pack if you get my drift.

To sum it all up: There ain't no magic bullet. Rifles are only as good as the shooters behind them. Hype is meaningless in the field. Buyer beware. You get what you pay for. Don't believe everything you read. And finally, the meaning of the universe is 42…42 what? I just don't know.

Now play nice. But tell it straight.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 13:28:39 (EST) 

My comments for the day,
Someone poked fun at old Sarge for his modest claims of doing in pop cans at 200 yards. Just my opinion, but if one can achieve that level of accuracy from field positions, this is nothing to sniff at. And a rifle must be capable of holding 1.3 minutes horizontal and about 2 moa vertical to insure hits. Many rifles can do this. Not many shooters can make the same claim.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 18:04:39 (EST) 

Sarge, had a recent class. 30 students all capable of less than one minute at 200 yards from nice range position. Made them stalk a couple of hundred yards, pick a position and shoot at 4" plate from dirt, brush and muck position. Five missed. You are doing fine.

Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOLL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, January 14, 1999 at 10:43:20 (EST) 


For the Savage owners, shooters, lovers, there is a competion trigger sold by Sharp Shooter Supply. (419-695-3179) Don't know anything about it. Just saw the picture.

Pat II
Lakin <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
north of area 51 N.M., UT, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 01:22:44 (GMT) 

Also, a budget tip on wringing some accuracy out of the stock Savage stock(for you people on a budget like myself): after floating the barrel, Ifound that the stock forearm had too much flex, defeating my floating effort. I notched out the ribs in the forearm, inserted a pushrod from a Ford 302(you can stoop and use Chevy), and filled the rib cavity making sure the pushrod was covered with JB Weld. The receiver was bedded wih Accusteel(?) from Brownells. After 500 rds, still going strong(minus the current scope dilemna). The pushrod tip was referred to me by a freind who got it from a gunsmith video.
Paul Lomske <lomske@hotmail.com>
Ohio, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 16:05:28 (ZULU) 

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