Medium to high end sniper rifles and copies:
Are ther advantages of the Dragunov over the M14? Are there Disadvantages
of the Dragunov over the M14? I personally would be concerned as for replacement
parts for the dragunov, but have been advised that this might be unfounded.
As for the M14, the parts cost $$ is outragious! ANYONE OUT THERE, PLEASE
FEEL FREE TO GIVE ME YOUR OPINION. Furthermore, if anyone out there
has a good Norinco M14 for sale, EMAIL ME!!!!!
Wichita, Kansas USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 02:21:30 (EST)
IF you HAVE to have a semi-auto, stay away from the Chinese M-14 and the Dragunov...
I would like to have a real Dragunov w/ optics, just for its historical value, but that is it. The 7.62X54R is, in fact, a .30 cal, but that is all that it shares with the .308. It is not nearly as stable and consistent with either the .308 or the -06. Aberdeen Proving Grounds personnel were not impressed with the Dragunov, giving it a Max. Effective Range of only 800M. By the way, if you're not a military person, that is not an impressive number for a Sniper-grade rifle.
The Chinese M-14s had all sorts of receiver problems last time I checked. The bolt lug recesses became badly peened because the receivers were too soft. This allowed the headspace to quickly open up, resulting in an unsafe gun.
The Springfield M-1A is a good gun and is certainly capable of out-shooting most humans behind it. You get what you pay for.
Lest people think that I am auto-bashing, my primary L.E. sniper gun is a custom AR-15....
The gun that I am quickly becoming fascinated with is the Stoner SR-25. Everything that I am hearing indicates that it blows the ArmaLite out of the water for accuracy. If I go the auto-308 route, it may just be with one of those, unless I go .260 Remington on the same platform.
Bruce Braxton <email@example.com>
College Park P.D., GA USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 04:23:13 (EST)
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 05:07:40 (EST)
I have a Norinco M305, and after a lot of tuning it can shoot 4 inch
groups at 300 Meters on some days and only with reloaded Match ammo.
It groups better than our issued G-3ZF, but it will never be as acurate as a bolt Gun.
I read no mention of optics in you question, you should plan on spending the same amount or more for a good scope and mount than you do for your rifle.
Now if you really need a "brass thrower" I would go along the M 14 / M 305 route as it offers plenty of aftermarket parts to improve the system as you go along.
But always remeber that even though you´ll look like "Rambo tito" it will never shoot as good as a bolt gun. And Semi´s tend to put this strange "spray & pray" reflex in your trigger finger leading your subconsion to a "ehh what the heck I have 19 more to go" mentalety were the one shot does´nt count anymore.
I went along your route,learned by doing it, but I am settled between the two worlds now with a bolt gun with 9 round mag.
Still have my M305/21 and it´s fun to shoot, but never would I trade my bolt gun for it.
Stay with what Bruce also mentioned, buy the Dillon video and a bolt gun.
G3ermany - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 05:57:47 (EST)
USA - Friday, January 15, 1999 at 11:44:00 (EST)
We all need to remember that these gun writers earn their living writing "product review articles with puff" to please their advertisers.... while at the same time, they pretend to be World Renown Experts and guru's of ANY specific weapon..... ( the fact that these guru's may or may not have ever seen or touched said weapon until they began writing about it a few weeks ago for that months magazine is not important. ) Think, have you EVER seen a bad review of a new product that is released to the market by one of the gun magazine's major national advertisers?
In FACT most of these "gun scribes" will have accumulated only 3-4 hours of actual "trigger time" prior to writing these wonderful and BS filled weapon system reviews. (At some nice, clean, peaceful, shooting range.)
The fact is that when the Polytech M1A was first imported into the U.S., the "gunwriters" as usual, asked for a few of them for "samples". Problem was, the Executives at Polytech told them to get screwed. As Polytech Ind. is about nine (9) times larger than ALL of the remaining U.S. firearms manufacturing firms added together..... they don't need to give away "free or trial samples". (They have sold these same weapons by the hundreds of thousands around the globe.)
Well, on the other hand, Springfield Armory is somewhat famous for
shipping neat and new stuff around liberally to the gun press ( for the
free exposure and advertisement) and THEIR sales guy's shipped one of their
Super Match grade weapons, 3 Gen II scopes, mounts, etc. by next day air
to the writer that just by chance performed the "side by side" torture
test of the Springfield Vs. Polytech a few years back. ( But, they didn't
adjust the Poly's gas system OR remove the heavy coat of shipping grease
that was THICK inside the stock.) It "boiled".
I wonder if the Editors and the financial guy's at Peterson and the other major gun publishing firms may perhaps be a little bit inclined to give "favorable" reviews for products that advertise heavily in their magazines?
AND then, these writer's in turn conducted a very biased, sloppy
unscientific, dishonest, and downright unfair comparison test of the Springfield
and Chinese Polytech versions of this time proven weapon. DO YOU THINK
THEY MAY HAVE A FINANCIAL INTEREST!!!!!!
I have several M1A's, and I paid about (4 times the $650) list price of the Polytech Chinese version for some of them. However, I've yet to have a failure or problem with any of the four Poly Chinese M1A's that I've dealt with and USED EXTENSIVELY. These have all fired at least 1200 rounds each (some more), they have been used in HP matches, to teach several kid's to shoot at the range, several weeks each year deer and hog hunting in merciless conditions (hilltops and cypress swamps). To date I have had NO problems with a single weapon regarding accuracy,reliability, metallurgy, headspace tolerance, or any of the other BS issues that have been tossed around.
I may just be lucky, but after finding the right load, tapering the receiver lugs and bedding them, and just a little "minor" tweaking,
they will all shoot between ½" and ¾" at 100 yards ALL DAY LONG using Leuopold scopes. ( If I do my part....)
It's amazing that the myth of the Chinese "soft" metal receivers is still alive and espoused as a valid issue. With today's environment of pointless litigation concerning "product liability".... No company would have even considered releasing a product to the U.S. market if it was truly as unsafe and prone to failure as the Polytech M1A's receiver. If these receivers had in fact been as soft ( low Rockwell hardness rating ) as some folks would have us believe.....these Chinese M1A's would have been catastrophically failing all over the country, the press would have a field day, and a whole bunch of guy's would be running around with a glass eye or two, a mean bunch of scars and a very happy lawyer.
OK guy's, I agree...if you have $2,000 to spend on a semi auto version of a tactical weapon for use in the spotters role....buy a Springfield Supermatch with the Krieger Hbar and be proud. But the Chinese version will shoot with it all day long for a lot less cash.
Craig, you may have really had a headspace "event" with your specific
weapon, but I bet you my ass it was a gun dealer or his "in-house" gunsmith that told you it was "bad" and to get rid of that Import Poly. I wonder who has it now? chuckle. Hell, I buy American most of the time, but these particular weapons are too good to pass up.
In closing, since a lot of guy's work for a living and are required to buy most their own tactical gear, at times we are forced to make some hard decisions, but they CAN be educated decisions..... Just be sure that you don't allow the "sales and marketing guy's" in the firearms business blow smoke up your ass and mislead you into overlooking what may be one of the best bargains in the .308 semi-auto market.
It may be that a dedicated shooter could buy a nice Poly M1A, add a fiberglass match stock (and bed it), top it with a good solid billet steel scope mount and some quality glass.....AND still manage to be able to buy that Remington PSS the same year without the wife cutting him off.
My 2 cents.
Near Blue Eye, Arkansas, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 10:24:44 (GMT)
CAREFUL SLINGING THOSE INSULTS DUDE, i DID A T&E ON A ASIAN IMPORT AND WOULD NOT OWN ONE. Yours shoots better than anything I've ever tested with the exception of a H&K PSG-1. Guess you got lucky man.
heck thats better shooting than my 700 police DM, what ammo did you use I need some to enhance my palsied skills.
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 14:06:01 (GMT)
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 15:36:17 (GMT)
I must be buyin' the wrong rifles, or maybe I can't shoot fer' shit.
Hmmm... Skate-boarding??? Nah... I go watch "Sniper" and find out
what I'm doing wrong.
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <firstname.lastname@example.org>
USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 15:38:42 (GMT)
I have owned one since 1989, a "hybrid", Chinese parts on a *gasp*
FedOrd reciever (sold by Century Arms). I bought it as I was a married
E4 at the time, and did not have much money. I bought the best I could
afford, which was about $500 worth. I later (4 years) had the rifle reworked
by Smith Enterprises in AZ. They re-heat treated the reciever and bolt,
checked the headspace, etc. That ran about $300, and was worth it.
Point is, I have about $800 in the rifle...they have been going for between $600-$800 at the gunshows I have been to lately. Why spend that, plus another $300 or so to make it "right", when you could just buy the M1A from Springfield?
I dont use mine as a precision rifle...as long as I can keep all the rounds in the "A" or "B" zone at 300+ meters, Im happy. Its a battle rifle, not an M21.
Just a thought.
FireBase Bandit, USA - Sunday, January 17, 1999 at 19:22:11 (GMT)
Al Ostapowicz <email@example.com>
Living here in Ignoramus-ville, Ohio, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 03:49:47 (GMT)
I would like to know if any of the EURO shooters have had the chance
to work with the Walther 2000 ?? For that matter, everyone seems to be
using the 168, 175, or 178 gr bullets for distance...what about 155 for
close, UNDER 500 yds work and what loads ?? Am looking for DGA out to 500...I
DON'T HAve to reach 1000 !!!! heh heh heh
Sweet Home, AL, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 04:33:39 (GMT)
Ergonomics, You decide?
Tactical advantages, You decide?
Additional weight, You decide?
Repairs, You decide?
I'm not talking "coddled" match tuned rifles that never see the battle
fields and are bench shot, or handled in the pre-requisite shooting jacket
only. Real World - Real Life!
Me, I love the Garand (especially the new quasi-tanker variants in .308), can stomach the M-1A rifles, and really like the FN-FAL and FNC's. but for the main intent of current shooting interests with (Hopefully) predictable first shots give me my Dinosaur Remington bolt action.
ICE FOG CITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 14:01:14 (GMT)
Rich... I had a three speed G3 (Stop, Fast, and Awful fast), and
I found it fairly accurate for what it was, It was about as good as my
Galil ARM .308... which is about 2" - 2.5" with 147gr machine gun ammo...
never tried "match" ammo in the Galil... has anyone out had better groups
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <firstname.lastname@example.org>
USA - Monday, January 18, 1999 at 16:13:01 (GMT)
The barrel is VERY massive octagonal custom jobbie that has chamber
shoulder and forcing cone set for use of Lapua D-166 bullet loaded
military (sponsorship) ammo that Aatto used to pop away with it.
Stock is allso UIT 300 compliant thang, barrel/action combination
bedded in freefloating the barrel. Some bedding media is left to the stock's
barrel groove and then honed away to tune the free resonating length and
thru it's "natural frequency" the resonance of the barrel in order to achieve
the optimum for the load shot (allways VKT/D166)
A bit like having a "once set" BOSS :)
I actually haven't bench tested the gun and allways shoot the same loads that it was build for with the exception that since D166 isn't available any more I need to shoot D46 bullets, I haven't tested the groupings due to total lack of interest in such, but the bullets seem to land pretty much where my shaky hands try to guide them.
Too bad that it doesn't meet rules nowadays due to overweight but yet again I am not that great a shooter so ... :)
I have no experience with chinese dragunov, only the 56S (normal
ak-47 clone) wich was quite horrendous, while trying to fire it one could
hear squeelsh and sqrueeks from the trigger mechanism...
The pull was so heavy that I allmost lost colour vision from mah left eye during it ;)
An easy cure is to dump all trigger components and change to Finnish RK62/76 assy.
As an adectode I'd like mention that '98 Finnish ipsc riffle championship was won with 56S. The main idea of the champ was to shoot with one untill it starts fall apart too much, screw off his excelent muzzle brake and the Finn-o trigger group ditch the junk and get a new one :) Seemed to work. Many of the others shot RK95s.
I hope my english doesn't bug the regulars, been exposed to fellow clubman an english chapper who left in horror when they banned shootas in there.(Okay his Finnish G/F might have got somethang to do with it :)
Heh never tried surfing but I suppose that elbow-down snowboard carves equal the thing lackin' the unfrozen water & the waves.
So lezz go grind our sleeves ! :)
Mr.Häyhä Didn't take part in urban combat here can be found
a some sorta brescription of the enviroment in which like most of the Russo-finn
there should be a link "White death" despite the corny name it contains objective data of one battle and the conditions in general.
Wilmastrand, Finnland. - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 16:03:07 (ZULU)
I do not believe that Mike was trained by the Chandlers. One certainly
doesn't get that impression from reading the Chandlers' DFA books. I'll ask him when I talk to him in a couple of weeks, though. (I know that for the Chandler guns, all the IBA guys that work on them are former Marine 2112s.)
The Chandlers do not use the Unertl mount, while Mike's literature says that he uses a "USMC Unertl-style" mount. Some components that are standard on the Chandler guns are optional on Mike's and will cost additional money- Badger Ordnance/Chandler recoil lug, trigger guard, scope mount and scope rings for example.
The summary seems to be that the Chandlers produce a superior rifle that naturally costs a lot more, while Mike makes good guns that cost less. I have a TBA rifle due before long, which I expect to like a lot, but I would have gone with the Chandler if I could have afforded that sucker. When it comes to firearms, I'm a believer in buying the best you can afford, and for me that was the TBA gun - the Chandler was unfortunately totally out of the question and that made the decision rather academic.
Of course, none of this brings the Armament Technology guns into the equation, and several Duty Roster regulars (like the sagely Mistah Gooch) swear by those.
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 19:44:31 (ZULU)
Ordered Chandler Sniper in Jan 97. Received in Aug 98. Rifle had 36 rounds on barrel when received (break in). My first rounds out of the Chandler were using PMC crap for barrel conditioning. Very first 5 rd group shot from brand new, cleaned gun 0.22 inches at 100 yds (PMC!!). Second (remember, I'm cleaning every round) 0.21 inches. Third 0.18 inches. Unbelievable. Workmanship on the rifle is flawless, every thing is so crisp and neat. Quality is fabulous. Scope mount is Unertl style unitized, lugged mount by Badger Ordnance made for Iron Brigade. Norm has changed his trigger guard supplier from D.D. Ross (Medina, OH) to Badger Ordnance. The BA guard is more refined.. almost petite … looking next to the Ross guard. (You could also beat a motorcycle gang to death with the Ross guard and just need to hose it off! Industructable) I chose a McMillan A3 stock for my Chandler… perfect for me… some folks don't like the extra hardware. I replaced the thumb screws on mine with allen screws. Weight about 13.5 pounds, balance perfect. Black Turner sling marked "Chandler Sniper", Pelican case, MicroTorque inch-pound torque wrench, hex insert adaptor and a Dewey 30" rod complete the package. I furnished a Mark 4 M1 16X scope to Norm, but have since replaced it with a Leupold 3.5 x 10 M3 variable. A true quarter inch rifle or less, depending on the nut behind the butt. The only other thing I plan to do is have AWC put a Fast Action Knob on the bolt. For those that haven't tried it, AWC's bolt modification is superb. Fast, smooth, feel is perfect..GET RID of that Remington Palm Chopper. AWC gives discounts when doing more than 1 at a time. Go in with some tovarishchi and save some bucks. I'm going to put them on all my rifles. Hope this helps. Have fun. Bill
Bill 971 <email@example.com>
Gulf Coast, FL, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 00:32:29 (ZULU)
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 15:10:55 (ZULU)
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 16:06:36 (ZULU)
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