Sniper Country Duty Roster collective wisdom


Cleaning:


Sarge has been lurking in the background for awhile and decides to take a shot:

Well I'm SURE we've kicked this subject around more than once but it's one that keeps coming up in discussions with others and I feel it's worth talking about from time to time. What method do you'all use to clean your weapons? Which "chemicals"? Rods, brushes, slotted vs jag etc. etc. etc. And then the 64,000 dollar question - how clean is clean?? This ought to keep things lively for a bit! Looking forward to some good discussion!

Back in his hide Sarge anticipates incoming!
 
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 00:14:08 (EST) 


Sarge,
This is probably one of the most asked and talked about questions in shooting esp. if you have put a lot of money into a barrel. Like most shooter's, in my early days, I didn't give it much thought, a cheap Otters cleaning kit and a bottle of Hoppes and I was in business, not any more. I have put to much money into barrel's and I want them to shoot well and last a long time. To answer your question I use Hoppes, Sweets 7.62, and sometimes shooter's choice. I have a Dewey one piece rod and I use Pro shot brass core brush's and pro shot patches. My cleaning procedure is to use Hoppes and Sweets togeather or shooters choice by itself. I run 3 wet patches of Hoppes and then I will brush. After brushing I again run Hoppes through the barrel until the patch is free of carbon (black). I will then dry the barrel with a couple of patches and then start with the sweets 7.62 this will remove the copper. I run Sweet's through it until I see no blue on the patch and then I dry the barrel and run a patch of Hoppes through it to remove any of the Sweets left and then dry patch it another 3 to 4 times now my barrel is clean. You also need to use a good bore guide and clean from the action not the muzzle. On some of my stock rifles I will use JBs paste after every 100 to 200 rounds since they tend to foul more than the after market barrels. There is no magic cures only hard work to keep your rifle's clean, the more you shoot them the more you clean them. Just my thought's on cleaning for what there worth!!

PJat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 10:04:39 (EST) 


Cleaning: I use a one piece rod, would prefer coated, but have not found one that has not begun to shed the coating after coming in contact with solvent. Solvents are Shootes Choice and Sweets 7.62. I clean until patches some out clean. Anyone have experience with the pocket cleaning kits that Dillon is selling. I think they are calling them Tactical Kits. They seem like a good/small system to take into the field.

Laszlo Markos <lmarkos@texas.net>
Round Rock, TX USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 11:43:40 (EST) 


Laszlo,
Check out the Dewy coated rod it's impevious to solvent. It's Teflon coated and works great.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 12:50:34 (EST) 
On Rods: Dewey Rod's are excellent. I have yet to see one affected by solvents. They will be affected by stupidity. In other words, use a bore guide! Otherwise you'll strip the coating right off.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 14:54:11 (EST) 
Sarge'
The first thing I do to a gun is firelap the barrel with a NECO kit. I fire a minimum of 60 shots to polish the bore and clean with JB bore paste every 5 shots. Yes the first time at the range with the new barrel is a long one. After that, I only use molly-coated bullets. I will clean after about 500 rounds usually longer. I NEVER use a brush on my bore. What I do use is a brass jag that I turned down a few thousandths. Seems that I got lucky with the barrels on my rifles, I can not HAMMER a wet patch through a clean barrel while using a stock jag. My cleaning procedure is to wet and dry patch the barrel with KROIL penetrating oil until I get very little residue on the patch, then ten passes with JB and two wet and dry patches. I repeat this once, then I give the throat about ten or fifteen passae with JB followed by wet and dry patches until I get no residue. I have not had a shift in zero using molly in a clean barrel, but I have noticed that I get a higher X-count with a dirtier barrel.

Steve
steve Uhall <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
greensburg, Pa USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 15:02:41 (EST) 


Re: Stupidity and cleaning rods

>"Snipped…."They will be affected by stupidity"……. Snipped again

Scott,

In my early years I once left a Dewey or Parker Hale .22 caliber rod in a hot barrel with hot Hoppe's solvent. That was the end of that coating, right now. Also, earlier in the Dewey cleaning rod history ('70s & '80s) they used a red coating that was not very durable. It would soften up, get loose, and bunch up on the rod. I still have a couple that I've dismantled for parts. I think capillary action pulled cleaning solvent under the coating.

I've had to rework a few handles to get them to work smoothly. There is a certain radius inside the handles that would cause the little loose balls to bind up instead of rolling smoothly. They worked fine with a brush, but a patch would just skid through without following the rifling.

Anyone ever heard of blueprinting cleaning rods? But at about $20.00 a pop, they are worth fixing to one's satisfaction. Lots of time went into making a special tool to remove the split nut(??) on the handle.

That is about all I know on the subject.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 15:44:05 (EST) 


After shooting fifteen or so shots I clean a general barrel cleaning, the first couple of passes I'll use something like hoppes or mil spec to break up the powder fouling, then Shooters to get after any coppermines that show up. I don't use moly, but may someday, so I have to chase copper every time. My recipe for Shooters is to use straight, run wet patch or two thru, let set for a few minutes then patch untill dry. Repeat as neccassary. Last I wet and dry patch with hoppes gun oil just to push the shooters out before I fire again. It does pay to look at patches carefully. The shooters really brings out the copper in your riflings (caused, I suspect, by a rough bore).

Gun Pictures <billmohr@borg.com>
Somewhere, Ny USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 22:07:23 (EST) 


OK here is my procedure - bore guide - a MTM or something like that but it protects the action. Don't remember who makes my rod but it isn't a Dewey or anything than fancy (yet). After a range session - USUALLY no more than 50 rounds, we're talking .308's here - wet Hoppes patch on a brass jag through once then Hoppes on a bronze brush (.45 caliber)(these are factory barrels and guns) making 10 to 15 passes. Then start dry patches, all patches are GI spec for .45 caliber and above making a very tight fit, using that same brass jag. As many patches as necessary to come clean and dry. Then Sweets on one patch let soak in barrel for 5 minutes then patches til clean, dry and no blue. NOW here is a real interesting question for those that use brushes - after getting the barrel "clean" ie no carbon build up on a patch - have you ever run the brush through again then start dry patches again and see what happens??? Tell you what happens in my barrels - more times than not I need to keep going with more patches - they come out dirty after using the brush again! Hence my previous question - How clean is clean???

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Monday, October 26, 1998 at 22:40:30 (EST) 


Sarge,

Do you clean your bore brushes between uses? I found that cleaning the brushes with acetone or isopropyl alcohol and letting them air dry on a paper towel helped to cut some of the "re-slop the bore" down. Isn't the phosphor bronze in conventional brushes susceptible to being dissolved by strong ammonia solvents like Sweets, CR-10, Copper Out etc. etc.?
For what its worth, I run two Shooters Choice soaked patches through the bore, wait five minutes (unless barrels hot), two Dry patches, solvent soaked brush from chamber to muzzle only 10 times, patch clean. Then if I suspect copper fouling JB bore or S-C Copper remover and patch clean followed by oiled patch for storage.

P.S. Don't dip your brushes in solvent bottle or can.

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, ByGawd USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 08:37:44 (EST) 


On cleaning: a shooter once suggested using toilet paper as a final step in cleaning a barrel. I take 3 squares of soft toilet tissue (Charmin) and roll it around a jag. I guide it through the bore guide and then push it through the barrel. Apparently, the toilet paper is softer and deforms more than a patch, and it really gets the last bit of fouling and powder out of the grooves. This method gets out additional fouling when I think the barrel is already clean. Has anyone else tried this?

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 13:24:00 (EST) 


Sarge - You must have been reading my mind, because I've been reading Duty Roster for a while now, and was going to ask the same questions about cleaning! I use Hoppe's, and then Shooters Choice. I'll scrub with a brush about once for every shot fired, and then go into the wet patch/dry patch sequence. My problem is that the first dry patch through the next day comes out with blue streaks! I also have experienced a black patch coming out after one pass with the brush down a barrel I thought was clean. I thought the brush was depositing something on the barrel. My questions for the board are

How long does it take you guys to get clean patches? I get a pretty good pile of patches built up and can quit after about 30 minutes.

What's a good way to clean the inside of the action? I've got a Rem 700 in .30-06. Thanks for your help.

PS - No, I didn't break in the barrel. I'm still kind of a rookie.

Matt
Matt <shuster@erols.com>
outside the, beltway USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 18:33:22 (EST) 


To All RE: Bore cleaning.

My .300 Sendero gets REALLY crusty after 20 rounds, so here's my drill:

Liquid method:
Soak a patch or two or three in either Hoppe's Benchrest (not Hoppe's regular no. 9) or Shooter's Choice and get the bore slobbering wet so the juice runs out of the muzzle and let it soak for 20 minutes or so.

Swab the bore until a dry patch comes out absolutely clean, then inspect the bore and repeat this process until all color is removed from rifling grooves. This seems to take a lot of work and time SO,

J-B method: Wrap a clean dry patch around a bronze bore brush and saturate the patch with J-B paste and scrub the bore a minimum of 30 strokes ( up and back counts as one stroke). Swab the bore with clean dry patches until one emerges absolutely clean. Inspect the bore and repeat the process until all color is removed from the bore.
This method seems to take less time and does a thorough job.
 
Scott (The Other One)
PA USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 19:13:54 (EST) 


Addendum to bore cleaning methods:

These two methods include the use of a cleaning rod guide, and chamber cleaning is something else again entirely.

Scott (The Other One)
PA USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 19:20:26 (EST) 


Here's another little bore cleaning tip I learned from one of the veteran 1,000 yard competitors I shoot against:
After a cleaning session and prior to either shooting the rifle again or swabbing the bore with oil for storage, this shooter runs a patch down the bore soaked with Zippo lighter fluid. He says this helps clean any little gunk deposits that may still remain in the bore.

Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Tuesday, October 27, 1998 at 22:07:10 (EST) 


I got to thinking today about all the posts regarding cleaning and my cleaning procedures. Figuring the bore in my fairly new Remington might be rough as is common in factory barrels, I came to the conclusion that the patches might be ripping off on the riflings therby leaving small partical of dirty patches where there is no dirt. This would seem to be true espeacialy with a scrubbing motion. So I changed my procedure to scrubbing the barrel out with several wet and dry patches. When I am sure that it was dry of solvent I take and ran patches thru in one pass only from chamber to muzzle. This helps to keep the patches from ripping and filling in the riflings with particles. If the patches wern't reletivly clean after 3 to 4 I went back with the solvent. Also I wiped my rod and jag after each patch. I might try some ms moly or neco on a patch at the end of a cleaning session someday and see if the copper build up is less.
 
Bill
Bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Somewhere, Ny USA - Wednesday, October 28, 1998 at 04:21:29 (EST) 
Check out this info on cleaning barrels
www.armament.com/clean.htm

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood , AR USA - Wednesday, October 28, 1998 at 17:22:21 (EST) 


Re: Cleaning

I had always assumed that the brush left residue in the bbl. Benchresters will sometimes use a "fouling brush" that places the same material as the bullet jackets in the bore prior to a session.

Lance M. Johnston <sgtlmj@dmci.ner>
Jonesville, MI USA - Wednesday, October 28, 1998 at 19:09:59 (EST) 


Here's my 2 cents on the barrel clean:

Dewey rod with one-size smaller phospho-bronze brush.
Bore guide. Cotton patches.

1st patch soaked w/ Tetra gun lube, 3-4 passes.
Then, patch w/ JB or Iosso paste.. 10 passes.
Two clean patches to remove bulk of paste.
Soak patch w/ Shooter's Choice and make 8-10 passes.
1-2 dry patches. Then repeat above step w/ Shooter's.
Another 1-2 clean patches.
Soak another patch w/ Shooter's and pass thru bore. Let "stand" for approx. 10 min.
Another wetted patche w. Shooter's.
2-3 dry patches.
Rinse brush and wipe rod w/ 70% isoproply alcohol.
Run 2 patches soaked w/ Alcohol. Then run several dry patches to remove all alcohol.
Final 2-3 passes w/ patch with tetra. Store rifle.

Prior to shooting, wet patch of shooter's choice and a couple of dry patches. Shoot...

I've tried many different regimens. This is the current one.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga. USA - Wednesday, October 28, 1998 at 19:17:11 (EST) 


If you want to spend less time sniffing cleaning solvent (This can be a good thing also if you are into staying high) and more time shooting, moly coat those bullets. It will cut you cleaning time considerably.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Fixin' to git me that big ol' whitetail in my back yard in that Great Republic of, Ohio USA - Wednesday, October 28, 1998 at 22:41:17 (EST) 


OK, here's my cleaning set up. Found a cleaning line in Cabella's that has a brass weight with what looks like 550 cord then an imbedded brass brush in what appears to be some type of floss, the rest of the setup is suppose to be the equivalent of 160 patches when pulled through barrel !!! So far it works!!!I use a mix of Shooters Choice and Kroil (couple of drops)right in front of the brush and pull it through the barrel after shooting my 30 round strings. Since I moly my bullets this may be overkill. Once I return to the home AO I run a patch of Militec oil through the barrel.
I do use a bore guide and rod(stainless) and 100% cotton patches for the oil and also when I use Sweets for the copper fouling.Yep, I do see copper but it must be REAL heavy to start breaking out the Sweets. The Shooters Choice does remove some of the copper but not all. As to how Clean is Clean ??? I usually still have a slight trace of grey (from moly) but if no blue shows am happy. Sure hopes this adds to the confusion !!!
OUT HERE

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Somewhere in the South, USA - Thursday, October 29, 1998 at 05:53:18 (EST) 


Having read all the recent posts about cleaning, I have a newbie question that I'm SURE someone can answer. Situation is this...for all my toys, I've been taking them to a friends house for cleaning, using just Hoppes and oil. I take them there because my wife absolutely can't STAND the smell of Hoppes in our apartment. Open windows don't quite cut it. I'm in the city, and can't exactly clean them outdoors (really woke up the neighbors first time I tried that). Truthfully, I don't mind stirring things up a bit in the neighborhood, but that's for another post :)

Anyway, I've read about Shooters Choice, Sweets, and some others from you folks. My question is...what would be a good combination of cleaners that WON'T make the apartment smell like a factory? The Hoppes doesn't bother me a bit, but for the wife...well, another story. Any ideas?

...back to lurking....
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA USA - Thursday, October 29, 1998 at 15:57:25 (EST) 


To Dan A. in Erie, PA RE: Gun cleaning fragrances-

There is nothing like the scent of Hoppe's No. 9 wafting on the breeze on an autumn afternoon!

All seriousness aside, I have yet to find a cleaning agent that doesn't have SOME smell to it. And that's a good thing! (Usually)

The only fragrance I like better than that of weapon cleaning fluids is that of beaver castor! No, that is NOT a sexist remark. Trappers will know what I mean.

Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Thursday, October 29, 1998 at 18:17:35 (EST) 


DOESN'T LIKE THE SMELL OF HOPPES? Dan, Dan, Dan... Assuming that getting rid of the wife isn't an option, I find that MP-7 has a *much* milder odor and stinks up a room much less, but doesn't clean quite as well as Hoppes so your cleaning may take a little longer. Prolix is another in the same category, I would try either one. (I use both for cleaning up my guns, but then I use smelly stuff like Shooter's Choice or Hoppes for the bore, as well as Sweets if needed.) Sweets smells like ammonia, and it is quite strong.

You can read some Prolix propoganda here and the MP-7 folks have their own website where you can read all about their stuff. Using one of these for most of the cleaning (like I do) will at least cut down the odor level.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, October 29, 1998 at 18:39:02 (EST) 


Dan A,

Have you tried "Remington Bore Cleaner"? What it is, as I understand it, is an inert earth (dirt) abrasive suspended in gun oil. I believe you will find it is not offensive to your spouse's delicate olfactory nerves. Get a nylon brush that fits your bore or one size smaller, wrap the brush with a patch, soak the patch with the bore cleaner and then work it back and forth through the barrel, follow with dry patches, finish with an alcohol soaked patch and then patch until dry. You will still need to lubricate the barrel before storage and, of course you can always clean your gun before you leave the range or other site. J B paste or IOSSO also work well but what would a cleaning session be without all those glorious smells?

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Watching the colors of fall in, Magnificent, West Virginia USA - Thursday, October 29, 1998 at 18:47:46 (EST) 


DAN A.....Damn Dan....sounds like ya gotta get rid of the wife. My wife hates the smell of gun cleaning solutions.....SO, I make it a point to clean often.....works great when the two of us are having a argument...I just go get the stuff out of the safe and give her hell. Drives her right out of the house.

All kidding aside. Go to Walmart and get some stuff that Remington makes...some kind of environmentally safe paste that has no solvents in it....I have looked at it in the store, but I have never used it. Don't know anything about it. you might want to check into it.

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
by the sea, of confusion USA - Friday, October 30, 1998 at 13:26:03 (EST) 


My, my, my.......so half of you think I should get rid of my Hoppes hating wife ;) Hmmm...what to do, what to do? OK, seriously, thanks for the multitude of opinions. Methinks that the MP7 idea bears careful consideration. If H & K uses it for maintenance work, it can't be all bad. The Remington cleaner is also food for thought.

Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA USA - Friday, October 30, 1998 at 15:09:22 (EST) 


Dan,
It's a genetic flaw in women, I don't know of one yet who liks the smell of Hoppes #9. Go to the Remington Rem Clean with the abrasive in it. It works fine to scrub out stubborn copper fouling with no foul odor.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, October 30, 1998 at 16:06:55 (EST) 


Cleaning

I use a Hoppe's No. 9

Alternate wet and dry patches till they come out v. light grey
Brush 1-2 strokes per shot fired
Alternate wet & dry till ....
Brush again
Alternate wet and dry patches till they are white, then dry and run patch with oil down barrel

Use a coated rod and guide
I stack two patches on the jag to make sure they fit tight - it takes tapping on the rod handle with the palm of my hand to push them down barrel.

Then again, what do I know? I haven't shot over 300 yds and use a Ruger 270 with a factory barrel for deer and a CMP Garand for competition. OTH I haven't missed the last 12 deer (all up to 200 yds.)
 
Karl Dahm <Dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Here, There Gone - Saturday, October 31, 1998 at 18:41:54 (EST) 


I have heard that more guns are worn out from over-cleaning than from actual shooting and I'm inclined to agree, given the amount of M16s and various types of machineguns I've cleaned and had cleaned. You know what works pretty well and is probably 10 times cheaper than all that name brand stuff? Plain old paint thinner. I get a container that will be deep enough to totally immerse the brush into when its protruding from the muzzle on the end of a cleaning rod. This not only rinses the brush between strokes somewhat but also helps draw solvent into the bore on the upstroke. Scrub the living s--t out of the bore and follow with wet patches (from fresh paint thinner). If the patches don't come out absolutely clean, go back to the paint thinner and brush routine. Someone mentioned that they wipe the patch in between strokes. I do too. It gets rid of the fuzz that is invariably deposited. Our bores are all chrome plated so this may not work as well on plain steel surfaces but when you've just come out of the field and you've got a short amount of time to get clean patches coming out of a platoon's worth of weapons, its effective. Often, there is mud and gravel inside the weapon. It goes right in the shower. Hot water and a toothbrush gets rid of dirt, etc. Penetrating oil gets rid of water. I've often heard the pogue-ass armorers (I was one for a while) complain about the shower not being authorized. Well, is falling into a swamp or stream authorized? What's the difference? When I clean my POWs I'm always concerned about cleaning rod flex. Having the rod continuously rub against the side of the bore will eventually make an egg-shaped hole where a round one was. That's why I like the Outer's Foul Out unit. It may not be for the benchrest crowd but it reduces unnecessary cleaning rod movement inside the bore. The very next gun-thing I buy will be a moly coating kit.

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, November 01, 1998 at 08:08:36 (EST) 


Hey Paul: Its nice to hear from you again. I read your post about cleaning bores with paint thinner. On commercial rifles, would it iaffect the bluing particularly the highly polished blued custom rifles, or bluing such as on the Wby Mark V's or the old Colt Sauers. Just curious. I've never heard of it before, but if you say that it works it might be worth a try. Thanks.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Btween a Rock and Hard Spot in Wonderful, Ohio USA - Sunday, November 01, 1998 at 09:20:54 (EST) 


Al O: Yeah, I'd be careful about slopping paint thinner on a finely finished gun barrel. It doesn't seem to affect the parkerized finish on military weapons other than to leave a whitish residue that a rubdown with any oil seems to displace. I've used it on my Browning Buckmark pistol with it's matte finish with no ill effect. The same goes for my Rem 11-87 SP, my Mossberg 500 and Savage 110FP. Finely finished blued steel is nice to look at but it doesn't take much to ruin it so I tend to stay away from that style.

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, November 01, 1998 at 23:13:16 (EST) 


Perrenial favorite for cleaning military weapons is carborater cleaner. Works like BC Gun Scrubber but at a fraction of the cost. As far as the M-24's, I like RB-17, and Gun Scrubber for the hard to reach bits. Works great and no drips. Have to buy all our own cleaning stuff. Seems that the powers that be don't see the need for specialized gear for specialized weapons. Some things never change I suppose.

E Engler <eaengler@hotmail.com>
CP Greaves, ROK - Monday, November 02, 1998 at 08:35:12 (EST) 


Anyone have any comments, (pro/con), on the "World's Fastest Gun Bore Cleaner"? It's made by National Tech-Labs of Boise, ID.

Mike O'Brien <atrus@coffey.com>
Evansville, WY USA - Monday, November 23, 1998 at 03:18:53 (EST) 


Mike O'Brien, Re; "Fastest bore cleaner". Have had my first one about 6months now and 8 matches later still think its a great addition to my rifle kit. Its non rigid and may not help with a blockage, BUT with some "Shooters Choice" right before the brush cleans very quickly and I usually run it through about 4 times. Still it doesn't quite seeem to be enough (like I ought to be doing more)....yet have found no build up in my Rem 700V .308. I bought another for my hunting rig and have it in the Eagle stock pouch and have bought 4 more for Christmas gifts. I was told that if you also put your favorite oil at the end of the loop, you also lube the bore...haven't done that yet, will do so next match. So far, Cabella's has the best price (about $12.99)that I can find.

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Somewhere in the South, USA - Monday, November 23, 1998 at 07:25:05 (EST) 


I will hopefully shoot black hills moly loads until I start loading my own. I was wondering also about cleaning products, I read all the comments on your site about cleaning, but there is no mention of Tetra gun products. Are they good or do you recommend something else? I plan on purchasing a Bore Tech cleaning rod and a stoney point rod guide. I probably won't get to shoot until spring, so I have some time to figure out what I'm going to do. I'm not military or police, I just love shooting and thought I'd ask the pros so I could do it right the first time, and get the most enjoyment out of my investment.
Thanks and best wishes
rich
RS1441@aol.com
rich <RS1441@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 13:20:31 (EST) 
Rich - Watch out for the Tetra products. The Tetra Gun Grease will go rancid just as butter does and smells worse. Bad news for long storage. The barrel stuff did not impress me. I got a 75 fps increase in muzzle velocity with the stuff, good news, bad news, it didn't stay there and the velocity would become erratic. Check the archives for break in procedures, there are several techniques out there, to include the techniques we use at SOTIC. Or email me if you are interested and I'll try to explain the method we use at SOTIC.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 23:31:32 (EST) 


Could someone please tell me where I can find the Bore-Tech cleaning supplies that are reviewed elsewhere in this site? Bore-Tech sounds like just what I am looking for and I cannot find any local dealer who has heard of it; neither can I find any references on the Internet, other than this site.

Roland Bailey <roland.t.bailey@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu>
Kingston Springs, Tennessee USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 15:33:24 (EST) 


Roland: Bore Tech can be contacted directly. I believe the address and phone # was listed in the article. Also, Dewey Rods are an excellent choice too. The handle of the Bore Stix is nicer but the Dewey rod fits the bore better. Trade offs. You can not go wrong with either. I will say that if you want a great bore guide, find a Sinclear catalog. Their guides are objects of simplicity and function.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 09:39:59 (EST) 
What is the best setup for a cleaning kit for a sniper-grade rifle. I'm not going near this thing with the junk I use on my other weapons. (Been looking for a bit, and this thread hasn't come up - maybe it's too elementary, but it is important).

Brian Bascom <brianb@anet-dfw.com>
Smack in the middle of, Texas USA - Monday, December 28, 1998 at 17:14:50 (EST) 


Brian,
Good idea on getting the proper cleaning equiptment. I like the Dewey rod and a good bore guide with brass core brush's. My rod is teflon coated and has given me trouble free service. There are several good rods out there just make sure you get a one piece rod. I use Hoppes and Sweets 7.62 and sometimes Shooters Choice.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, December 28, 1998 at 19:23:36 (EST) 


Brian - Cleaning kit for a quality rifle, sniper or otherwise:

(Note, this is not compact FIELD GEAR)

A one piece coated cleaning Rod. Dewey is a great example. Make sure the diameter is appropriate for caliber. You do not want a rod that warps and bends in the bore. They run about $22.

You can use a one piece steel rod but this can score your rifling over time. It all depends on the quality and surface finish of the rod. ALWAYS wipe the rod after each pass, no matter what it is made of.

Bore Guide. Get one that has some sort of O-Ring on it to keep the crud from flowing back into the chamber/action. I prefer Sinclair International's bore guides which are made of Derlin and made to the exact specification of your rifle. They are easier to use than the more complicated metal guides. Forget cheapo plastic MTM guides. The excellent Sinlcair guides run about $18.

Cleaning jags. Both punch jags and wrap jags - quality bronze ones, (not steel, plastic or aluminum!) Parker Hale type wrap jags are excellent. Avoid jags that taper to a thin cross section in the middle. You'll just bend them. Avoid eyelet type jags. They can not do as good a job as a wrap or punch jag. $1.50 ea.

Bore Brush. I am not a big fan of the bore brush. Only use it when I have to. Get only TOP QUALITY brushes. Not dime store crap. Hoppes Bench Rest brushes are a good start. Not too expensive. Get them bulk. They were a buck a piece last I looked but that has been awhile. What ever you use, do not get anything other than bronze. Avoid cheap core wires. A bent brush with a hard steel center can really kill a barrel. Also, never EVER use stainless!

Quality patches. Forget Hoppes and other dime store brands. Mail order by bulk. Oxyoke or mil-spec flannel cotton patches are good. Sincliar has quality patches too. Figure about $14.00 per 1000. Don't scrimp on patches and don't reuse them. Clean from the camber and let the patch fall off at the muzzle. Get square cut patches. Oddly shaped ones can be a real bitch to work with. The square ones go well with both type jags mentioned above. I highly recommend both punch and wrap as one or the other will usually work with what ever kind of patch you end up with. Sometimes punch jags get stuck with thicker patches. Have both on hand!

Chamber cleaning tools: You can improvise. This is the one area I still use an eyelet type jag. I thread several patches in it to get the walls of the chamber. A chamber brush is a good investment to remove heavy fouling, but go easy.

Lug recess cleaning tools. Often ignored area. Lot of crap builds up over time. Sinclair offype a good tool and Midway may also. These are used in conjunction with a fat swab not unlike a small tampon - about a ¼ inch in diameter and an inch long. You rotate the tool in the lug area and this swabs out the build up. Cotton swabs run about $2.50/100 and the tools run from dirt cheap to $20. You can get by with out one, but don't forget to clean the area. If you let this go, eventually you will get galling or scratches on the bolt lugs or receiver lug recess.

Cleaning fluids. Lots of choices. Shooters Choice MC#7 to attack copper and carbon. Hoppes 9 for general cleaning. Sweets 7.62 for the really persistent copper. I usually clean with Hoppes first. Swab dry and follow up with Shooters choice. Swab dry and follow up with Hoppes 9 again. Dry. Oil. Put away.

NEVER use Sweets 7.62 in a barrel that might have some Shooters Choice still in it! The two create a third chemical that eats bores! Reserve Sweets for those times when you just have to use it and then use it ALONE.

Last thing: JB bore paste. Great product to be used occaisonally. It gets it ALL out.

I cover it all guys?

Gooch/Rick: how about some good field cleaning gear? I hate segmented rods (M60 cleaning kit). Pull through's work well. Any favorites?
 
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 29, 1998 at 13:42:31 (EST) 


Cleaning Rods:

My choice for cleaning rods is the Dewey 1 piece coated rods. ive used these for 5years and have never had a problem with them. as for the multi- pieced m16 rods, they are sh*t for obvious reasons. In our National Guard School I came up with a method that might work if you dont have access to a Dewey. Go to your local electronics shop and purchase enough shrink tubing to cover the assembled cleaning rod at least twice. When you assemble the rod sections, cover the rod with the tubing and heat it till it shrinks.... probrably why they call it shrink tubing, huh? Do this at least twice, and *poof*....a 1 piece cleaning rod.

kudu out
kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 29, 1998 at 16:26:02 (EST) 


About cleaning kits, I have been using the BlackHawk made kit with the Ottis flex pull through as a field kit for about a year. As a field kit it is great. Cost about $25.00

Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Tuesday, December 29, 1998 at 21:29:38 (EST) 


So much about cleaning??? I'm a great fan of removing the Copper fouling every chance I get. But unless you clean every shot.....there is more crap in that barrel after the first shot. I know our Military believes in cleaning to occupy the Sojer's time and maybe that's how it got started but I don't know about all that attention to detail and whether there is a point of diminishing returns there when you get more laping out of the soft patches than the bullets. JB paste and get the copper out and runner till she's white and go watch TV.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 29, 1998 at 23:08:56 (EST) 


When in the field I use a collapsible pocket rod to remove barrel obstructions. RAPID ROD from Atsko Inc. But to clean the bore I use a brass weighted drop through cord. World's Fastest Gun Bore Cleaner from NATIONAL TECH LABS.
James Barko <M4CUPP70@aol.com>
Calumet City, IL. USA - Wednesday, December 30, 1998 at 11:56:38 (EST) 
I went back over the hot tips/cold shots archive on cleaning and I saw no reference to CLP. It seems to be used on everything from M1 gun tubes to handguns in the Army. I've used it for years on my pistols but never much on my rifles, is it any good for fouling or just for powder residue and carbon?

John
JohnS <jrscar@codenet.net>
BroncoMania, Colorado USA - Monday, January 11, 1999 at 03:36:05 (EST) 


Did anyone EVER answer that guy about CLP and if its any good?? Good for nothing, is my opinion....its suppose to be a bore cleaner, lubricant and preservative all rolled into one !! HOW?? I have never seen any used on the ranges I haunt except somebody with a NORINCO who doesn't know better and bought the darn 7.62x39 from a "Army/Navy store". Yep, had to have it while in the service but I also had my stash of REAL bore cleaner. The stuff that was issued had to be "Shakened OR Stirred" before use. Think I have a quart or two still put away to be given to other shooters when we are getting ready for a match. Give them that "extra edge"!!

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Sweet Home, Alabama USA - Tuesday, January 12, 1999 at 21:41:36 (EST) 


Will, Re: CLP

It is all I have ever used to lube my AR-15 and I have not experienced any problems. As to bore cleaning with it...Don't know, never tried that.

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Thawing out at last in, Magnificent, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 01:54:27 (EST) 


Will: If memory serves me correctly, the services went to CLP because it was one product to carry as opposed to a minimum of three (ie: bore cleaner, oil, and grease). The product they chose is remarkably similar to Break Free, and I believe if it was analyzed chemically, we would discover it IS Break Free. It does have the ability to clean the bore, perhaps not as well as some of the products we all use, but under less than great conditions, it will work. It will also perform lubricant duties as claimed, and is in fact a good product. Should you be limited to only one product it would be the one to carry. I've seen and shot Depity Dave's rifles on many occasions; his AR works as advertised and better. Guess the lube is doing its job.
Fred
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 09:17:52 (EST) 
CLP is good for lots of shit. Just dont clean the bore on match rifles with it. It leaves a teflon residue behind, which is what it was designed to do.

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden , WV USA - Wednesday, January 13, 1999 at 17:34:30 (EST) 


I have read several people say they clean their weapons with "Shooter's Choice" and 'Kroil.' I have kroil, but there are several different 'flavors' of Shooter's Choice. Which one do you use? Regular bore solvent, copper solvent, etc.?

Also, JB Bore Compound and it's variants, are also used. Do you scrub the bore with JB every time? or ocassionally, i.e. every x00 rds?

I scrub the bore with JB after each trip to the range, even if it is only for 30-40 rds. I am now wondering if I over clean. It seems to take 15 - 20 rds to 'settle in' the next time out.

Larry
Sewerpiper <skporter@arn.net>
Sanford, Tx, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 03:20:33 (ZULU) 


Larry,
You said that your using JBs to clean eveytime you shoot and that it takes 15 to 20 rounds before the gun settles in. When I had my last 308 rebarreled with a Schneider SS barrel I had trouble with getting it to "Break in" and quit fouling. I called my smith and he said to use JBs and scrub it after each trip to the range but the problem continued. I finally called Mr Schneider and talked to him and he said to quit using the JBs because each time you do that the gun barrel needs to start the "Break in" process all over again. I followed his advise and in a short time the fouling quit. I then tried this on another rifle of mine to test his theory. I scrubbed it clean with JBs and then shot it and upon cleaning it I noticed heavier fouling for the first cleaning. After the initial cleaning it "Settled in" again and went back to the way it was. I think JBs is great and it should be used on "Dirty or heavy fouling but not on normal cleaning after each range session. Just my thoughts on this.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 14:46:00 (ZULU) 


Sewerpiper Dude,
Cleanliness is next to Godliness, but we're the "Great Unwashed" here.
try Shooters Choice or Rem-Clean every fifty rounds, MRBULLET is right as usual! Too much is not a good thing.

Chao!
peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SUN-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 16:02:01 (ZULU) 


Larry...
I agree with what Pat said...
... if you "Clean" with JB bore paste, you will "never" break in your barrel... each time you run paste through the barrel, you roughen it again... JB is an abrasive. If it's a 30 cal now... eventually you will wind up with a 31 cal.
JB Bore paste was designed to clean pistols and revolvers that had bad leading (from real lead!). What we are dealing with, is powder fouling, (easy to clean) and sometimes copper wash.
If you clean often... every 30-40 rounds, then all you need is a standard bore cleaner like Hoppe's #9, or some of the others that are similar. #9 (and the others) have a mild copper cleaner in them also... that's why the patches will come out green. It will remove the powder gook, and mild copper wash. You will never need anything stronger, "IF" you clean that often (after your bbl is polished from being broken in).

If you shoot a LOT between cleaning... like two-three day matches, where you shoot hundreds of rounds, and can't clean... you may find that a quick cleaning with #9 type cleaners isn't enough... you can tell if it's not enough because the last patches keep coming out with a trace of "GREEN"... you can wet the bore with cleaner and let it stay wet over night, and finish cleaning the next day.
If you really can't get the copper out, use a solvent like Hoppe's "Copper solvent"... let stand over night and that will clean the worst of them. Midway, and Sinclair, both sell chamber plugs (the same ones) that are like a steel cartridge with an "O" ring. Put the plug in, stand the rifle on it's butt, and fill the barrel with solvent... if it's really bad.

You don't want abrasives in the barrel... JB was never intented for what you're using it for... I wouldn't let the stuff in my house.
... my 2 cent's
Pablito
 
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 16:13:29 (ZULU) 


Re: Cleaning with JB: I've found with my molly-coated bullets that cleaning with a copper solvent like Shooter's Choice will strip the molly from the barrel and move the point of aim for the first few shots until the bore is re-plated. Berger Bullets (where I get mine) recommends cleaning barrels with JB and Kroil when using molly bullets, and that's what I use. I admit I haven't carefully checked the cold-barrel zero since I started, but at the last match I scored 30-3X at 200 yards with the first three rounds out of the barrel, so it can't be too far off.

We've been kicking around the idea of starting the match at 1000 yards and working forwards, instead of the other way around, to make the cold-barrel zero a larger factor, but I'm not sure it will make much difference -- I don't think any of us can hit consistantly at 1000 yards anyway.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Tuesday, January 19, 1999 at 20:38:14 (ZULU) 


I thought this gun cleaning stuff has been beat to death, but I guess I was wrong. Since I have run out of things to say on my own, I will resort to robbing the works of others. I found this little thread at the GO VARMIT GO BBS and I hope the authors dont mind that I repeat it here.
I think we have to give up on our drill instructor fantasies of having a
squeaky clean rifle.There is no such thing as a rifle that is properly
lubricated that can pass the white glove test. There is an equilibrium
involved in cleaning the bore of a rifle. Too much copper and carbon
fouling will cause rust, corrosion, accuracy deteriation, and increased
chamber/bore pressures. Too vigorous an attack on the bore will likly
harm the rifling, or muzzle crown. How much copper should be removed for
you to say you've cleaned the rifle? The answer is not easy. You must
look inside yourself...into your Buddha Nature, letting your third eye
guide you...to know that 15 minutes, 1/2 hour, or more is enough to
remove the copper guilding that will cause rust, raise pressures, and
destroy accuracy. Oh, I know, I hear you say that copper is copper clean
that damn thing down to bare steel. I know many High Power DCM shooters
who refuse to strip the bore of all copper. Instead, they remove all
except a 'light dressing..or coating' of copper so as to not throw their
first shot off the mark. Oh I know that we are not supposed to use those
GI sectional cleaning rods...but how many of us have a few laying
around, 'just in case' Oh I know that we are not supposed to clean from
anything but the chamber end of a rifle...but how many of us don't have
the time, or can't clean from the chamber end. Oh I know that we are
supposed to clean the living hell out the bore...thats what Dad, or the
DI said...but how many do? I think that there is a point where most of
us look down the bore and say...'it's clean, lets get a beer' Endlessly
cleaning is needless, and potentially more harmfull than the copper.
That moment. The moment where you look down the bore, expecting it to be
as shiny as a US presidents morals. And you see a bore that is clean,
but not bare steel...shiny, but not a mirror. And you say,'yup it's
clean' you've had your moment of bore cleaning Zen. You have arrived at
the euilibrium. You and I know that bore is clean...even if it has a
copper smudge in it. Now, as for home recipes. I just tried grocery
store ammonia and had pretty damn good results! I cleaned out the bore
of a SVT and used the ammonia to negate corrosive ammo. I also found the
patches comming out blue...kind of reminded me of Hoppes Copper Solvent.
I brushed the hell out of the bore with Hoppes No9 and then more ammonia
and the copper was gone...go figure! I used a nylon brush.
Regards,
MJL

You want Zen? It doesn't come from a dirty gun. I can't sleep at night
if my guns are dirty. I can hear the crincle-crackle of carbon buildup
and the hiss of corrosion from the guns in my safe and I have to get up
and clean them before I can go back to sleep. I clean guns that haven't
been shot in months just because I know they haven't been cleaned
either. True Zen, I believe, is achieved through concentrated effort. I
don't chant like the Bhudist monks in their monastaries in Tibet, But I
can achieve a blissful trance-like state while spending an hour cleaning
the gas system on an AR-15 until I don't see any carbon any where.
Nirvana! Ok, maybe it is just the solvent fumes, I always forget to open
a window. Anyway, it works for me. Regards Alan K.

I am in agreement with the Zenlike balance-- the Yin and Yan of new oil
to lived-in function. I have also found that a truly nasty blackbore
will oft-times respond to a gentle cleaning with Brasso. There is less
abrasion to Brasso (and less chance of damage) than there is to a steel
bore-brush and it will clean all manner of gloop out of the bore. I use
the Brasso Heresy frequently on black-bores with healthy rifling.
Personally, I rather like the ''well-used train track'' shine to the
''knock-yer-eyes-out'' ain't-never-been-shot chromed super-nova look.
-kirbyTheOG
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 01:20:32 (ZULU) 


Thanks for all of the input. I guess I failed to mention I am using Sierra bullets I moly coat myself with a Midway vibrator.

I am going to severely cut back on my use of JB and stick with the good ole Military Bore cleaner followed by a dry patch or 2 and military gun oil.

Again, THANKS!

Larry
Sewerpiper <skporter@arn.net>
Sanford, Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 03:02:23 (ZULU) 


On the use of JBs bore cleaner, I would like to make it clear that I was NOT referring to you guys who shoot moly bullets. I don't but plan on trying them in my 260 later on and from my understanding and research on moly bullets the best way to clean is with Kroil and JBs. It's my understanding that standard bore cleaners don't work well with moly bullets. I hope this will clear up any misunderstanding I may have caused. My post was in responce to copper bullets only.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 14:17:05 (ZULU) 
Can anyone please tell me who makes Sweet's 7.62 or what distributor handles it? None of my wholesalers seem to carry the stuff.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 01:29:04 (ZULU) 
Doc, "SWeets 7.62 solvent is made by "Sweets wholesale pty. ltd. in Australia. Any good gun shop should carry the stuff, but if nothing else Dillion Precision has it in there catalog. Web page is
WWW.dillonprecision.com
Estes <estes@feist.com>
Kansas, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 05:17:13 (ZULU) 
While picking the brain of one of the Sierra ballistic experts this morning I happened to mention Sweet's 7.62. He said not to use it because it was too slow. His personal choice is Barnes CR-10. Any comments?
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 16:13:18 (ZULU) 
Doc-Dude,
CR-10 vs Sweets both are real aggressive fast workers, I use Shooters Choice Copper Remover, and need lotsa ventilation for your health. Caveat Cleaner my man.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-BRIGHT-CITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 17:39:51 (ZULU) 


By the way, don't expect Kroil to inhibit rust! Left as the sole agent in the bore as an experiment, I got slight rust in a few days time.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 04:47:49 (ZULU) 
Hey Guys, I am breaking in a Remington 700 police and I figured I would give it a light cleaning before I shot it. That light cleaning turned into a nightmare!! Th patches kept coming out blue/orange with no end in sight!!! Is this normal for a new rifle? What should I use to remove the fouling? Should I let it soak for a while? Should this much cleaning be necessary on a brand new rifle!!? If anyone can give me some insight I would much appreciate it, Thanks in advance.
James Castagno <jimgraphics@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 13:55:21 (ZULU) 
James,
This is not oncommon in a new rifle. There is always residue left in the barrel after the rifeling process and the the barrel is probably prof tested. I always start by giving it a good cleaning and brushing with Hoppies then I go to Sweets until there is no "Blue" on the patch then I go to JBs bore paste and run at least 5 patchs through about 5 to 6 times each to really get it clean and then clean it with a wet patch of Hoppies again then I run a number of dry patchs through it and I am then ready to start the break in process. I know this may sound a little "Anal retentive" but it does make for a nice smooth barrel and clean up is a lot easier down the road. A little time spent here will save a lot of time down the road. Shooting through the crud only makes for a rough barrel because a lot of times it will become a part of the barrel through the firing process.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 24, 1999 at 14:22:13 (ZULU) 

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