Sniper Country Duty Roster

December 08, 1999 - December 18, 1999

Never mind "Master Kung-Fu Fighter". The guy I don't want to piss-off is Pablito.

Back to business: If I'm shooting slugs, I want a ghost-ring with a post front. Wood stocks are heavier. Less recoil. I like that in a 12 gauge. To each his own.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 01:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Had the soundtrack from "Tombstone" runnin’ through my head as I read your tale of Master Kung Fu Fighter. Great stuff!

I have a question (or questions) for your consideration.

Setup - I shoot an unmodified PSS in .308. I am focused on developing extremely accurate ammo, before I delve into my aged, weak shooting skills. I am not a professional or competitive shooter, nor do I play one on TV. I have more time than sense, so I am working at building something between High Power and Bench Rest grade loads (neck-sized, neck-turned, deburred, uniformed, weight-sorted, etc.).

All that said, I have to ask if any of you have done any chronograph work on the match-grade factory stuff I read about here and in the Emporium. I recently fired a 3-shot group of my hand loads across a chronograph. I got a .210" group (@ 100 yds) and observed a mere 32 FPS spread (~ +/- 0.75%). This was the single best group I’ve fired. Subsequent rounds from the same lot of hand loads were more dispersed with respect to velocity, and grouped accordingly. Indication that my work is not yet done at the loading bench…

Assuming that all else was essentially constant, I have to lay most of the blame on the velocity spread. I must conclude that I simply got a fluke trio of loads that fate located side by side in the box. With this in mind, I intend to strive for much greater consistency through better tools and techniques. HOWEVER, before I get too deep into this (which I may do regardless), I think I need to know if I’m really wasting my time.

What sort of velocity consistency can be expected from factory match-grade loads? What sort of groups are you getting off the bench with this ammo? What’s the typical cost per round of such ammo? In practical terms, do any of you really care about that degree of accuracy?

For me, this is an adventure in learning what can be done. Winter's a good time for such trivial pursuit, but somewhere along the way, I have to justify the trip. I’ll appreciate all responses.

Thanks, and Semper Fi!

Roger Lays <>
PA, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 01:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address:


Your velocity spread of 30 fps, is typical of the .308.
This past summer, I fired one .308 case 27 times (I had loading stuff at the range) in a benchrest grade rifle... and the spreads were around 20 to 30 fps... so even when you have "no" variation from case to case... using the same case 27 times, there are variations that you can't control.

The costs of match .308 ammo, is from 65 cents to a dollar, depending on how much you buy, and who you buy it from.

Go ahead, and try everything, keep good notes, and enjoy.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 02:24:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Spotting Scopes:
Check out the Nikkon Earth & Sky series 15-45 with 60mm lens. This comes with the tripod and case. The optics are really clear. It has quite abit of eye relief. I know it's probably pricey - but it's good Nikkon quality. It's water resistant - no - I wouldn't drop it in the creek for an extended period of time either.

I turn 40 tomorrow - I might be able to talk the family into getting one for me.

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 02:52:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Re: backup weapons

First I should say that I have zero training with a shotgun and very little experience with their capabilities. With that said, I am curious about this weapon's suitability as a sniper's backup weapon. If a sniper team is compromised the immediate action should be to pop smoke and break contact, right. For this purpose I would much rather have a carbine with its higher capacity, detachable (quick reloading)magazines, preferably with an M203 type grenade launcher attached for more firepower and to reach deadspace. I'am I missing something? Enlighten me please.


Paul J. Martoccia <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 02:53:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Did anyone see txe Clint Eastwood movie Absolute Power? Thwo sniper rifles, both sporting Leupolds... one was, I believe, and HS Precision take-down rifle.

Jeff Cooper: IF you'll scroll up, I mentioned my "sidekick", a black mini-AFCK. I suppose there are some better knives out there, and their are some pricier knives out there, but I really like my Benchmade. I do have a few Gerbers, and a little Spyderco, and a SOG tool and a small Cold Steel (a mini-Outdoorsman, really cool knife), and the mandatory Ka-bars; but the Benchmade is the one that is w/ me almost everywhere. If I ever told my wife how much I spent for it, though, she'd cut off my balls with it....

CDC: I really like Wiggys bags. I've got two, a 20 deg bag and a lighter 35 deg bag (the two can be mated into one), and haven't destroyed them yet. You're right about down.... although it's the best at keeping you warm when its all dry, it'll never do if there's any chance of being wet.... Lamilite seems to be good insulation to compress and then recover. Wiggy's has a military discount, BTW... that's part of why I bought mine, too.... they're not the cheapest otherwise. He may offer a discount to cops, too.... wouldn't hurt to ask.

Shotguns: I like my Mossberg 590, but I'll have to admit I suck w/ a shotgun.... I could do more damage w/ the bayonet than with the gun itself... I really have been thinking about getting into skeet or trap or something so I can become more efficient with it... I know that it'd make a fine arm but I'll a MUCH better shot w/ a pistol and most definitely with a rifle (BUT, I'm still sucking compared to 99% of you blokes).

Rod, Gooch, et al: I hate to hear about your course falling through... if I had any pennies to spare at the moment I'd be there, but.... well, put it this way: I shoot a Savage... ;-)

'lito: ROTFLMAO!!!!

Optics: I love Nikon cameras, but I haven't ever been fond of non-Leupold scopes (well, except for the fabled sacred Unertl, made of unobtainium); IMHO, YMMV.....


Leslie <>
VA-TN, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 04:03:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Glad to see some folks like benchmade here! If you don't have one get one you'll love it.

Sorry if I sounded like I was cop bashing. I wasn't. It's not thier fault they were following orders

Shotguns: Scattergun Tech is great but cost. Mossberg is cheaper and upgrade from 'cheaper than dirt' for little money. If you like autos go with the benelli ISPC comp. model they are great? I use one in three gun competition and you can use thier speed loaders. Check them out.

Pablito. Hey bud. Great to be back after a long summer of hard work 5 feet off the groung at 140mph. And great to be shooting .45moa with my stock Winchester Laredo in 300 win mag. Of corse the 79.5grn of RL22 behind 165 nosler balistic's helps. PEOPLE DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! IT'S OVER MAX AND MY RIFLE HAS A HUGE CHAMBER AND ISN'T SHOWING PRESSURE SIGHNS. YOUR'S PROBABLY WILL.

Back to the deer stand to get some more monsters!
jeff cooper <>
Memphis, tn, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 05:02:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Didn't get very many responses on the barrel question, except from Jerry R.,who I was glad to hear from. Anyway, I've been doing some reading from some "sniper" books, and when they get into their
discussion on ghilie suits, and I quote "any good suit has lots of elastic." Now, I'm assuming that the elastic that they are speaking of is for the attachment of local flora and fauna, but if this is the case then where is the stuff to be secured to the G-suit? The netting maybe? underneath the burlap? On top of it? I'm still learning this game so any responses are appreciated.
Casey <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 06:16:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey Jeff...

5 feet off the ground at 140 mph... you gotta stop drinkin' that home brew beer!

Have two, a 870 police "cruiser gun" w/3" mag chamber, 18" bbl, and pear shaped grip... haven't fired it yet, it's tiny and scares me.
But I figure that the sound of "Rackin' the slide" will make anybody wet their pants.
Main shotgun is a 11-87 police w/3" chamber, 20" bbl, and full length mag.
Only changes are Tritium front and rear sight, one of Brownells speed elevators, and their fast cocking handle. Rem says to only use 3" mags, but I've found that it will cycle anything down to old paper "skeet" loads when held in one hand. Very reliable gun.

Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 11:25:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito' LOL
Have this vision of Lito starring in the Terminator, riding motorcyle with sheep on back, carrying shotgun in one hand, shouting "don't worry little sheepie, uncle Lito will save you from those bbbaaaahhhhdddd old meanies" .

Still need instructions on drag bag useage. No Pete, not an overnight bag for drag queens.
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 13:11:06 (ZULU) (your host address:


I don't know if any of you is active in the pro-gun lobby, but you can at least point the flowing out to your Senator or whoever you feel can carry your flag.

A 17 year old boy shot and wounded 5 people in a school in Veghel, my former hometown here in The Netherlands. Gun laws in The Netherlands are very strict and it is very hard to legally own a firearm. Inspite of these laws, this boy has managed to get hold of a gun and start shooting people. This prooves again that gun laws don't work. If trhey can't be bought legally, they will be bought illegally. Tell your government that the Western world is facing a MENTALITY PROBLEM here, not a GUN PROBLEM!

Click here for more details!

Take care, you guys and I hope your liberal politicians get their heads out of their *sses! Explain to them that "liberal" used to mean someone who wants less influence by the government in peoples everyday life, NOT MORE!


Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 13:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have played around with what your contemplating and let me tell you its fun its, frustating and can be the *%!*& !!! I pulled out what hair I had left in frustration trying to find the perfect or magic load that would do it all. It doesn't exist!!! One day it does the next it doesn't. I have found that your better off to taylor a load to what type of shooting your going to do. I have a load for my 308 that will rip a hole at 100 and 200 but tends to open up after 300yds and is not as consistant as my Varget load at longer ranges. The Varget load will only average .5s at 100 but will keep just over .5 to .6 MOA all the way to 700yds (This is only as far as I have shot the new rifle) The thing I look for is the vertical spread at long range, this will tell you how consistant your loads are(My opinion) The loads that have very close ES and SD are usually the ones that will have a very minimal vertical spread. Its hard to do load testing at long ranges because wind becomes a factor but I still believe that the vertical stringing is a good indicator of how a load is. The Federal factory match is pretty consistant and shoots well but will very from lot to lot. I have had some that was the pits and now I have some that is shooting in the .2s in my new 308. If your going to shoot under 500 don't worry about it, if your shooting under field conditions, it probably doesn't matter all that much but if your like me, "IT MATTERS DAMN IT"!!! Have fun(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 14:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
There was a cool animated joke on Tom Bowers general message board this morning. It's about our Commander in Chief and her husband.

I won't post the link here because I don't want to offend the Webmaster or any ladies among us.And we all know that kids are still here.Yeah I mean you! Check it out on your own if you want to. I got a chuckle out of it.
Don <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 16:08:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just poked my head up over the parapet to see what's been going on in the Roster world. I just can not recall a year this busy. Even the great year or so I spent hauling myself down to SMTC for training was not this loaded. I feel like that rabbit holding the clock in Alice in Wonderland! Annnnnnnnnyway…

Now about the roster:

WTF, Over????

Guess I have not missed much after all! Didn't it used to center round long range shooting and rifle tuning, gear and technique? Now its Karate Country? Now police bashing? No offense guys but WTF? ;-)

Well folks, the roster is pretty much self regulating. Those of you who rightfully got disgruntled during the above ninja wars can end these pointless diatribes about none sniper related issues by simply IGNORING the original posts and carrying on as usual - trading VALUABLE information about shooting and gear. I know that can be tough. Especially when some schmuck comes on and blasts hard working LE types because of an obvious bias of his. You understandably hate to let some things slide. Honor demands a response. Can't blame you - and in this case, the Mikes and Bruce were right on. BUT I have come to the conclusion that if we are going to keep this roster on topic we almost have to adopt an attitude that simply rolls over the BS and gets back to the issues related to this site. This is NOWHERE NEAR as satisfying as a full retaliatory broadside online, where said schmuck made his original remarks. But it is not hard to see how these kinds of distractions take away from the learning experience of the whole.

Maybe we should open a second roster for free thought and conversation. All the political, non-shooting, soap box issues can be tossed in there. Not that any of US would go visit it mind you… ;-)

But that ain't going to happen. So, next time a topic comes up not to you're liking that is totally unrelated to the site, just blow by it. With luck it'll go away when it gets no audience. We all like to pontificate once in a while. Hell, I am doing it now. But how many times do we have to point out this roster is NOT for political diatribes. It is not for pro-government or anti government rhetoric. It ain't even for the hunting sports (although we tolerate it for obvious reasons). You all KNOW it is about issues relating to sniper training, ops, gear improvements, optics, ballistics, and experience sharing. Use it for what it is because frankly there ain't many places like it on the web. If you want politics, go to TUCO's site ( He has an excellent board for just such endeavors, as do a million other sites. Do we have to say it again? Keep it on topic! Damn. There I go sounding like a bloody PREACHER!

Spend your time spouting off about how Leupold might improve a scope, or howa gun maker can better fit your needs. But street fighting? BOHICA!

Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 16:26:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'll do one better than my last long winded and pointless post: I'll make it easy - Fun Topics to avoid in the future: Y2K. WHO cares? Panic on your own time; The state of your wives cellulite problem. Dude, we are all there; 9 v 45, crap son, they BOTH hurt; Dem v Rep, take it somewhere where you ain't preaching to the choir; HCI…same deal; Martial arts…I never met a master who could dodge a .308; Street fighting…grow up and get a life; Clinton - this too shall pass; Militias - they have plenty sites of their own; Rugar v. everyone else - if it shoots well, who CARES?; Beer, is Canadian REALLY better than Bud? Ah, DUH, YES. God v. Satan - We know whose going to win that one.
And finally, the ballistic coefficient of a sparrow. As long as it gets where it is going, we don't CARE if it is African or English. ;-)

So are we in agreement?

how about something more interesting? Lets see some personal reports on the Remington LTR.
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 16:34:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

ansious to com on board
p maes <>
ft collins , co, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 16:56:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
hello all, I was looking for some input from someone that has used/owned a stock from the Choate Machine group. I've not beeb able to find much end user data about them. There was alittle tidbit here at snipercounty, just looking for alittle more. If you could pass along any personal pros or cons that you might have about these stocks it would be great.

Chris Jeter <>
Lawrence, ks, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 18:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Scott, a year& 1/2 or so ago, you had an artcle in TS. Did you ever get that thing finished? Your "restraint" prose is most welcome. BTW, is there a record for most posts in a given time period? Shouldn't that be worth a t-shirt or somethin'? Seriously though, fill us in on the rifle in the article, please.

Mike Miller, you acquitted yourself & your fellow officers vey well.
Jim <>
Portland, Or., USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 18:20:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don, I bought a Scattergun Tech. Border Patrol 870 several years ago. It is a great gun, got me through 9 days total of Louie Awerbuck classes, plus TFTT, others. I ended up adding the goodies to bring it up to their full-boat model (side-saddle, lighted forend), you might want to save yourself the trouble and buy them up front. Their ghost ring sight really works -- fast, accurate, and tough as nails. Louie wants them to silver-solder the front blade on the barrel instead of epoxy, he's seen a few of them come off, but I've never had a problem with mine (knock on wood). Only thing I didn't like was their fancy tactical sling, an old GI sling suits me fine. Ask them to put on the optional short stock. I've never regretted the price, but I hope their delivery is better now, they jerked me around for 4 months.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 18:30:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
Paul Martoccia: I agree with you about the carbine versus scattergun, but I will let you in on this. My shooting partner some years back carried a Remington 870 "cruiser" as his "car gun". Texas didn't allow pistols at the time. I carried a M1 Carbine. My thoughts were that I had better accuracy at "normal" ranges. Scratch that. On a 12 inch gong at 200 yds, he was holding as well with slugs as that carbine would do. He was just that good. Which is what it all boils down to. Get good with what you got. I will admit that he had/s better CQB knock down than I do, but I couldn't get that good with the shotgun, and figure that carbine is enough. I was faster though ;-) I'm not a master in any shape fashion or form with a shotgun, but I am impressed by those who have the debtication and are.


Bravo <>
Treading through the snow in, Utah, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 18:58:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh, and so you guys don't think I'm crazy, those slugs were breneke rotweil sabot slugs (SP?)
Bravo <>
Once again, Utah, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 19:02:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
Oh, I believe it. In Louie's class we were shooting tennis balls at 25 yards with slugs. (Don't try to do it with a bead sight.)

But as much as I love my 870, I don't think I'd want to take it on a stalk. Too heavy, and you can't carry enough ammo. As flexible as they are, they're better suited for point defense and CQB.
Grasshopper <>
Richmond, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 19:45:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

HEY go vote at this site
and go vote many times if you can!!!!!!
Scott Hannah
Scott Hannah <>
Los Gatos, Stalinfornia, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 19:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
For those of you not boycotting UPS yet, be damned careful when you ship anything through them.

MikeM and I have taken turns mailing a Pelican case back and forth, today got it here and it is simply busted all to hell. As you would face it to open, bottom rear corner is sheered off, one of the hinges is ground as if it was dragged on pavement for a loooong way, and top right front corner is busted through. Oh, and it looks like a can of white paint was busted on it. Shipping tape shredded, it is really a sight.

Convenient, I guess...let your people tear up enough stuff without firing their ass...and everyone will insure the package for a bunch [of course UPS is self insured] for them, eh?

Old [mad] Dog 20/20
Bruce <>
broken, pelican, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 20:32:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, I been gone just one week to the wilds of Kansas and had to read a full length book here to find out that there are still people who will take black belts to a gun fight and don't know what to take along in a bug out bag.
Be sure you have a new Radiator and Fanbelt in your pack or you'll find yourself in the wilderness in a hopeless condition with nothing to keep you company except a old 12 point buck with very few teeth that just lays in the back of the truck and sleeps. So much for preparedness. OH yeah, take along a extra set of keys too just in case you do finally find a radiator so you can drive the damn thing after you loose the ones you brought.
Only other thing I learned is that I outweigh that pipsqueak Mike
real bad and everybody named Bruce is uglier than most. Rabbit hunters can find radios and everybody in Seattle is sleepless. What a world.

B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 20:33:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm with Grasshopper. I had a 870 tricked out pretty much like his, trained with it, shot it a bunch and like it a lot. Its range is short, and its ammo weighs a ton. Shooting 3" slugs in the sitting position, I had to adjust my regular (not cable frame) glasses after every shot. After a short while that kind of recoil gives me a flinch that's hard to lose.

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 20:46:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

while back a local swat team and I shot together at the local rifle range under some strange conditions

Team Delta was a police swat sniper team. They were stationed 300yds from the primary target. Their mission was to secure a sentry and provide cover fire for the entry team as they assaulted the building (actually they were shooting helium filled balloons suspended about 4’ off the ground). The sniper team was clothed in their girlie suites and they lay prone in the tall grass waiting for the go to engage their assigned target. They had been on site for several hours and their sore and ant bitten muscles ached as they waited for the go code. Finally they got the green light (the PAC timer sounded) they fired. Before they could reacquire their target and confirm it was neutralized they heard a loud fooooom 10yds to their upwind side. As they recovered from the blast to their senses they were assaulted by the acrid stench of sulfur that made their noses run and their eyes water making scanning the target area difficult. “Area secure” the spotter finally called. Reset (the pact timer) and acquire the next target. The situation gelled again into the waiting game for the go. On the order to fire the same thing happened again. Jarring, smoke and the nauseating stench of sulfur all of it was like a nightmare. Finally the spotter looked up wind of their position and saw a man dressed from head to foot in buckskin with a coon skin cap. The man was holding a black powder rifle. The spotter was annoyed at the anachronism seated before him partially because of the impact the burnt black powder was having on the training but mostly because the “Mountain Man” had the audacity to shoot such a weapon from the sitting position and scoring hits at 300 yds. The spotter asked the “Mountain Man” to move down wind of their position. The “Mountain Man” ask “ ain’t you boys su-pos t’ train under arduous conditions with distractions and encumbrances”

“not if we don’t have to” was the spotters reply

Michael <>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 22:33:33 (ZULU) (your host address:


FN is marketing a new sniper rifle, the FN Special Police Rifle. After disconnecting from the GIAT corporation, FN decided to design a sniper rifle again. The SPR is based on a controlled feed Winchester M70 action (Winchester is owned by FN) and is chambered for 7.62x51 NATO with a 4 round mag capacity. The barrel hardly has a taper to it, comes with a 1 in 12" twist and is chrome lined (yep, I know what you are thinking, I thought the same...). Judging by the realively poor picture a saw, the FN SPR is fitted with s HS Precision stock, much like the PSS. It comes with only one front swivel-stud and seems to have either a detacheable mag or a hinged floorplate. LOP and cheeckpiece are fixed.

Stefan out!

Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 22:39:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC, I ran a couple of boxes of 3" Magnum slugs through my 870 when I first got it because that's all I had on hand. Big mistake. My knees were shaking so bad when I was finished I could barely walk. Federal makes reduced-recoil 12ga slugs, like their tactical buckshot load, and they're very accurate.
Grasshopper <>
The Land of Fruits and Nuts, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 23:30:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
ghilie suits and elastic? I posted earlier, anybody gonna respond?

Casey <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 00:44:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

As you may already know we have been kicking that dead horse of sorts regarding field gear. I have seen some great ideas and I like the concept of a bug out kit. My question is this; what is the criteria you used to design your kit? Did you have vehicle moble in mind or foot moble? I usually plan for the worst case scenario. Here in CA as you are well aware we have earthquakes, riots and from time to time terrible wild fires that ravage the place.
My point: I am designing a kit for emergencies that I may have to carry even in the worst of circumstances. I am also designing it so that if I do have to split I can grab and go. The only item that I have not seen discussed is body armor. I use a USGI flack vest of early 90's production that does well against most moderatly powered handguns and OO buck. I have also a mopp suit for emergency warmth. If you were in Desert Storm you know how WARM they are.
I have set a limit on weight for pack and for "Deuce" gear. 30pounds MAX for deuce gear and 55 pounds max for the pack. I am going to switch my LC2 Mountain pack for a civillian one, they are more comfortable. I have a cammo pack cover that I use along with a poncho liner to make a improvised rifle cover. I have xtra alice pack straps to secure it like a pack on the light excursion. It works great hunting too.


What is concidered a "arsenal" anyway? I hear of people being busted across the nation (about 6 or so) for being in posession of a "arsenal". Is it 5, 10, 20 how many guns? I thought they were just "discussing" the issue of arsenals. If you are in the LE field, can you shed some light? I collect antiques and Mausers, especially Orberndorf Mausers and a few Martinis and the like. I hate to be on the "news" (I use the term VERY loosly) for being the "Arch criminal with a 'arsena' of meuseum quality firearms". That would really suck! By the way the 8x68S is a nice one! Kicks too!

Happy Holidays EVERYONE! And I hope you are all safe and warm with your families. I certainly will. I lit a candle for those who fell at Pearl Harbor. If you have a chance to go and pay respect, please do. I think a lot of "Americans" seem to forget that WE were attacked. To those who fell, lest we forget. God bless America!
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 01:57:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

You have a gift for creative writing.
If I thought you were in any way dishonest,
I'd suggest you take a job as a speech writer for the Clintons.

Utgardaloki <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 03:28:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just my two cents on the "Bug-out Bag". I was in the Guard in Georgia when the "Rodney King Riots" went on there in Atlanta. We were placed on State Active Duty. When things happen like that, you will be glad you kept all the extra stuff in your bag. The supply train moves really slow and only the neccessaries get loaded first. There is also a little event there called "FreakNik" it is the Afro-American version of SpringBreak. Many of the locals use it as an excuse to help themselves to whatever they want. They have been known to tip over and burn a few cruisers and smash out store windows and do midnight shopping. Oh, this is a yearly occurence by the way. It's better to have things handy, than to try to grab what's avaible or what you can remember on the way out the door.
Rick <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 04:11:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
Haven't tried the tactical (that word) 12 gauge loads. They sound pretty good. Even a steady diet of the standard 2 3/4" buck and slug become a little much. Makes my trigger press silly.

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 04:16:06 (ZULU) (your host address:


Write for the Clintons... I'd rather scuba dive in a cess pool.
Actually, it would be the same thing, wouldn't it?

I do, from time to time, write for the good guys.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 04:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, A most definite sniper related question. I am looking to have my Rem.700 "coated" have read about Robar's set up and just recently read in a Cabella's catalog about someone else that can coat/spray/whatever and it looks like a "Dark O.D.Green". So, Who's done what and what were the results ?? Yeah, yeah, I know, Gooch and company probably says just break out the spray paint but I don't want it to look "Painted" !!

Seriously...I want a durable tough finish, one that I don't have to redo every other time I head into the woods or range, etc. Besides, I already have one rifle that looks like a "wooly rifle"
Out Here !!
Will <>
Not so Sunny, South, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 05:00:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guess not.

I had my 700 bolt gun done in black teflon with an underlayment of nickel, this dis not include the stock. I've had the finish on for about a year, and it has held up fairly well to the usual field abuse. My barrel is stainless steal, and I wanted the same finish throughout the gun. This meant that bluing and parkerizing were not an option. So I had two choices, I could have it painted, or have it finished in black oxide as the Marines are currently doing on their guns. I chose to have it painted, as I was informed by knowledgeable people in the industry that the black oxide finish is not as durable as the teflon and I did not want to be constantly re-painting the thing with conventional spray paint. The finish is very weather resistant, it also has a little bit of a glossy tinge to it which developed after several months of wear and tear. It will chip if it's smacked against hard material such as rock(deer hunting), or concrete benches(fun at the range). These have been my experiences, just my thoughts.

Out here. Casey
Casey <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 05:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address:


An amigo is picking up a Remington 700 in .223 tomorrow. I know most of the feelings on this site is against .223 as a sniper round (and for good reason) but his is mostly going to be for crows, groundhogs, and paper. Can someone recommend good rounds? I had a VS a few years ago and could make little cloverleafs with 52 grain Match, but he wants more terminal effect and less ricochet potential than the match rounds. What about the V-Max, or others? What is the capability of the Blitz?

David Kiser <>
NC, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 10:10:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC-DEFINATELY try the Tactical Loads if you have a source. I am 275 lbs, and am not ashamed to admit I hate the 12 gauge with standard loads. I shot a man-on-man competition that included 5 rounds of Federal Tactical Buckshot, before transitioning to the handgun, and I did it 8 times, this after standard qualification (10 rounds.) Later I changed departments, and had to qual with 5 buck/5 slugs, and I was miserable. And to all the instructors, I am using the correct technique. I used to have a chief who was a duck hunter, and for two years, we were issued 3" magnums for our ALUMINUM framed Mossbergs. Ouch, Ouch, and Double Ouch!

Bad Kharma-Haven't heard anything passing either on the "arsenal" thing. Dollars to donuts (I don't like 'em, so no donut jokes) if it IS, it's a local ordinance, or just in one or two states, (which is of course one or two too many.)

BTW, anyone heard about the naked guy cleaning house with the samurai sword in the UK? They're talking about banning samurai swords now... Makes you want to pick up an IRS agent and kill someone with him so they'll ban them, too, huh?
David Kiser <>
NC, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 10:29:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am the proud owner of a Remington 700 Sendero, cal. .25-06, and I just found this site! I am an NRA member and enjoy long-range informal shooting.I don't know if this message is relevant to the Roster, but I just thought I'd check in with you!


Mark Smallwood
Mark Smallwood <>
Cranfills Gap, TX, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 12:02:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello out there, DRAG BAG QUESTION ANSWERS por favor!

Would someone please describe in some detail how you use the drag bag from the time you load it up til the time you shoot? My question is in relation to the stealthness needed, get stuff out of it, to haul the thing behind you and retrieve your weapon without being spotted and getting your head separated from your shoulders.

And in lieu of the bag, do you use a vest, pack or whatever to haul your STUFF to bad guy territory? If so, how do you keep from looking like you have a giant lump on your back?
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 13:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mr Smallwood,

Welcome! A Long action Sendero is definately on the right track!

Shotguns - YAWN!


BIG CITY, BYGAWD, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 13:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

David Kisser

Its true about the naked swordman,he ran into a church and went nuts:stabbed multiple people

Fortunately a offduty copper subdued him with a pipe ripped from the chuch's organ.

P.S No-one died luckily.
Daniel <>
England - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 14:02:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can anyone give me the exact measurments on a Styer SSG69 Barrel ie. length, diameter at the muzzle and reciever ends? I'm refering to the original SSG69 with iron sights as issued to the Austrian military.
I also want to know if it is a bad idea to turn a barrel to change the contour. Will the heat or other factors effect the integrity of the steel, or have an adverse effect on accuracy?
What about crowns? What type is best on a tactical rifle.I have heard about a recessed 11 degree. Is this a good crown?
Don <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 15:28:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

You asked a good question. I have read about how the drag-bag is employed, but have no practical experience, or training with it. I have talked to guys that have some training, and they say they ditch the pack in the woods, and take only the dragbag to the final firing point. They drag it between their legs with the frontend of it about even with their ankles, and use their feet to guide it along as they worm-crawl into position. Don't you think this would leave a big snail-trail? I don't have a dragbag yet so I can't try it and see what happens, I have tried sneaking/crawling/stalking through the woods outback, and it is a workout with any kind of equipment load.

Best Regards,
Bill B <>
ky, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 18:31:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just got a pre 64mod win 70 target rifle in 30/06. it does'nt have a stock barrel, the marking on the side of the barrel reads LR Wallack. I was just woundering if any body new if this barrel maker as I have never heard of him. Thanks
Craig <>
S.R, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 18:41:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks guy's got the information I needed on the SSG69 barrel. I am not buying one I just liked the balance of the one I saw and liked the idea of maintaining the iron sights. Does having the irons on the barrel have an effect on accuracy?
Arnold Arms:
Has anyone had work done by these guys? They advertise quite regularly in Varmint Masters magazine. They advertise an accuracy enhancing package for about three hundred bucks that includes pulling the barrel setting the chamber back,truing the bolt and reciever, trigger adjustment and bedding. Is it to good to be true or is this a pretty average price for this kind of work.
Someone give me some enlightenment on this starlight scope thing. I bought it to increase my coyote take. But want to hear some tactical use methods and tricks. I have two Remington tactical rifles one a McMillan in 30.06 the other is a .308 set up like the M40A1. Should I dedicate one rifle to the starlight or is it OK to change out optics. I am using Leupold M1LR with MK4 rings.
Don <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 20:28:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hello again,

I got E-mail from someone who recommended the Sightron. I read the review and have been looking at there 4x16x42 mil-dot unit. From what I see it is a good deal. I read that the mil-dot system is different than any others around. But I do not know how to use any of them yet. So this is not a big concern to me. The price is a lot better than the Leupold mil-dot system. I want a combination sniper varmint scope. I realize this is not the best way to go but it is the way I will be using it. Thanks

mingler <>
seattle, wa, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 21:16:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

in one post, somebody remarked that instructers had been painting orange on ghillie suits of students whose suits did not meet inspection. He/She claimed that they had been doing this since the start of the base in 87, and either he/she meant that it started in 1987 or 1887 is beyond me. But I am sure that it has been around since before 1987, as my father attended Fort Bennings, GA in 1969 for ranger training. I'd also like to say that I think it is agood idea for the cadets who do not do their duty competently to be marked, as they are holding the rest of the class behind. Thanks, and if you meant 1887, I guess I've made a total ass of myself.

Steve Mason <>
New Hope, PA, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 21:22:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don; I've tried some of the Russian optics on the NV stuff. It is an iffy situation and quite frankly I can't recommend it too highly.
First thing you will need is some binoculars for scanning as the dogs will make a fool of you with just one rifle mounted scope. The zero is not a very tight affair and some just won't hold worth a hoot. You can see O.K. even with Generation 1 optics on a fairly bright moonlit night of just after sunset of just before dawn. The infared rays penetrate longer/sooner than regular light and these things really shine about then. However be sure you have a good mountable system and I do recommend a lightweight caliber and rifle as these things are subject some to recoil and are very heavy as a rule. The Generation 3 is the way to go but it's too damn expensive for what you get. 2 is the best for the money but still about a k note. You will need to sit where your right for the available light from the moon just as if it were the sun. The approaching sun at your back is the proper procedure. They work but it's a very specialized thing.
If you use weaver mounts you can get the B-square mount that normally is used on the AR-15 flat top for about $50 bucks and if you use one for the scope and the NV you can use the same rifle which is very handy but a $100 bucks for both mounts. This mount is very resetable on weaver bases. . Oh yes, the dogs don't see at night either so down wind is where they will be seen first. Actually that's the only place really concerning you because they will circle to get the wind. They don't haul ass like they do in the daylight when they smell you as a rule they just fool around at about 150 yards or less trying to figure out what is going on.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 21:58:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
Scott Hannah,

Thanks for the notice about the MSNBC article on Clinton's threat to the Gun Industry. I think he is trying to force the Firearms Companies to hurry up and settle with the Cities that are trying to sue them. Several lawsuits against the firearms industry have already been dismissed by the courts, and this troubles our Pres.
Alan Gottleib of the NRA Institute for Legislative Action is counter-sueing these cities. We need to offer our support to the NRA-ILA. They are out front fighting the battles.

Best Regards,

Bill B <>
ky, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 23:57:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the information.Sounds like you have shot some dogs in your time. Anyone out there especially military types have any pointers for the use of a starlight scope for sniper ops.?
I saw an interesting pic today. It was a Barret .50 set up on what looked like an M60 tripod and T&E machanism.Was this just a cool picture or is this weapon employed in such a set up? Has it been tried with the lighter caliber bolt guns?
Well it's dark up here in the Colorado Rockies and I have a PVS2.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm......... SEE YA.

Don <>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 00:10:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello, deos anybody know of a reputable FFL dealer in New York state
to have a rifle shipped at from Robar?My local dealer recently went out of bussiness so I do not know who I can trust regarding service.
Simon <>
NY, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 02:05:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
I'm thankful you do write for the good guys-
and that's no ' Barbara Streisand '!

Utgardaloki <>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 02:31:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well Steve you did anyway.

There are no "cadets" at the Benning Sniper school and the Orange spray paint is a stupid idea. Its not used so much as a tool to correct problems as it is used to harrass students. Almost every student gets painted the first inspection. If you want to critque a student you can do it without ruining what work he has done. The paint is almost impossible to remove. 4 years later and I can still find some on my Ghillie. Oh and yes I did pass. Honor grad and high shooter. But I guess I held my class back.

Once you've passed the course then you can have an opinion on the course. Till then, stay in your own paygrade.

By the way hotrod, the current Ft Benning Sniper School opened in 1987.

Have a nice day.
gooch <>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 02:41:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Steve - HockeyRef

You asked about moly. There is a new product FASTEX being used by the shooters on the chat message board. It is easier to apply than moly and seems to work well by the reports made. There was an article on Fastex in the Varmint Hunter Magazine that recieved some criticsm for the writers being to close to the product. Warrants watching for a little while to see what happens.

Roger-90th OMMS <>
Micanopy Beach, Florida, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 03:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

I liked the idea of orange spray paint. It did/does harass students to a point, but it also keeps them from just washing off something like chalk. The paint actually makes the student go back and work on the area in question and need of repair. Additionally, any form of correction and or punishment can be abusive in the wrong hands. There are instructors that are abusive in correction and then there are those that teach while correcting.
PS, I got my share of orange paint and I too was Distinguished Honor Grad but lost Top gun in the shoot-off (6 " low, between the iron maiden's legs). I also second Gooch's motion that the current US Army School was started in 1987. Before that, Sniper Schools were Division (or individual unit) organized and run. I think you were referring to Ft. Benning and not the USASS though, and in that you are correct. Ft. Benning has been around a lot longer than 1987. Some of our ranges have graffiti dating back (carved in range bunkers) dating back to the early 40's that I saw.

Thomas <>
Very South Tip of , Texas, - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 04:19:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

.22lr sniper rifle's (suppressed),(SV-99)

The Russian's have seen fit to make a suppressed .22lr built around their 'Sobol' action which is a straight-pull action.
Have they thought this up by them selve's,No they are coping what the 'Rebel's' have been using against them in Urban area's,Russian Sobol .22lr rifle's with home made silencer's,sometime's just a 1.5 litre empty soft drink bottle.
With more and more Battle's being waged in Citie's etc,are the Russian's onto something?

Comment's anyone

Chris <>
New Zealand - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 05:10:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

re: soft drink bottles as suppressors.

Anybody else ever tried one of these on a .22. I had heard of this years ago, and while on active duty tried it on one of our ranges. I used a 2 liter bottle, and didn't notice any significant reduction in noise, which leads me to believe that the sonic boom constitutes most of the noise from a .22. Anyway, I passed it off as another myth.

Pat T.
Pat T. <>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 06:10:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi Pat,

Try using subsonic ammo,

Two companie's in NZ make very good silencer's for .22lr rifle's,using PVC plastic tubing,the kind you use for plumbing.
Using up to 2" dia,offcentre design,single chamber,telescoping,the offcentre is so you can use the iron sight's,all held on with a hose clamp.They are not quite as good as a Parker-Hale (steel can) but are very cheap and light weight.

Chris <>
New Zealand - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 07:42:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Re: 2 liter bottles as suppressors
(Had to check the statute of limitations on this one...)
Tried it on .22-maybe somewhat quieter, but not worth the trouble. Tried it on AR (hey I was 17) found that (a) mouth of bottle fit perfectly on A1 flash suppressor, and (b) gas expansion of first shot shredded plastic bottle to bits...
David Kiser <>
NC, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 08:01:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
22 lr sniping rifles.

I own a target grade Vostok CM-2 in 22 Lr with a barrel that is about 27-28" long. With ammo that stays subsonic (due to long barrel most normal velocity ammo stays subsonic) this rifle is VERY quiet as is without any suppressors. The noice can be describeb to be like the snapping of a thick and dry twig. Of course this rifle is very easily suppressed so that the only noise heard is basically the firing pin hitting the round and the bullet hitting the target. In asuppressed 22 Lr very often the loudest noise heard is the bullet hitting the target.

In Grosny (spelling?) the first time Russians drove in in APCs without any infantry support. They got shredded and if you think about how much noise these APC´s and shooting makes, you realize that a subsonic 22 lr rifle does not need any suppressor at all under those circumstances. Of course a suppressor increases the odds in the shooters havour, but I think these Russian suppressed weapons are designed more for regular police type of work where they shoot the lights out of street lamps and maybe guard dogs when they prepare for a house assault to catch hardened criminals.

Russia already has in use a special suppressed semiauto sniper rifle and a suppressed full-auto assault rifle in a special calibre 9X39. The bullet is extra hard (tungsten ?) and even though it is subsonic, it penetrates normal "bullet proof" vests out to 150 meters. So I do not think a suppresser 22 Lr will become anyone´s ultimate secret weapon. At least not in a war. 22 lr is not very powerful and most of the time one can count only to wound with it. Of course in a war wounding is also better than nothing.

All in all, I do not think Russian special forces will have much use of a suppressed 22 Lr in Tsetshenia because they have better (more powerful, longer effective range)suppressed weapons already in stock. The Tshetsenians probably have to use also 22 Lr rifles because those specialty suppressed weapons in 9X39 probably are not widely distributed among the Tsehtsenian forces.

BTW weapons in 22 lr with regular non-jacketed bullets might be against international laws due to the fact that 22 Lr deforms quite well when used against "soft targets". In Tsehtsenia this probably does not matter as genocide is also forbidden in international treaties, and nobody really increases their voice about it either. Still I have not heard of even one conviction from the use of 22 Lr in war against the interantional treaties, so this is probably mostly a hypothetical idea. Comments ??

Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 08:11:25 (ZULU) (your host address:


Good call on the .22 rimfire. We used them along with the US Allies during all wars since WW II probably up to current date.

I believe it was Rex Applegate that suggested L-E use suppressed .22 rifles to lungshoot riot leaders in the 1960's
Good Idea Really...............

The Mossad has used them for quite a while as have most other "Intelligence" groups.

Like you said "International Law" only applies when its politically correct to do so.


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 13:03:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Soft drink bottles as suppressors? ATF thinks enough of them that it will get you pinched, as will the body of a mag light baffled with steel wool, and all other sorts of contraptions that don't work very well.

Old Dog [asserting firmly his rights under the 5th]
Bruce <>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 16:23:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

NEWSFLASH *** reply: FN Sniper rifle

Sniper Country is already ahead of you buddy! But thanks for the heads up though! I have one, as soon as it is available, for a Sniper Country review. I am really looking forward to it because FN claims to have found a way to evenly coat the bore with chrome. They state that it will be as accurate as other contempory non-chrome lined rifles. Should be interesting to see if it pans out.

Hopefully the promised rifle will come through and we will have a review on it this winter. I got to hold it on Thursday at the Philly tactcal show. Nice rifle.
Scott <>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 20:27:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Someone asked about the rifle article I wrote last year in TS. Yes, the rifle is finished. It has been given a fairly good work out between SMTCs course and local shooting. The work seems to have achieved my goal in turning an already good shooter into a vary consistant rifle. Prior to the work, there was a small amount of stringing at times and to get my best accuracy I had to handload (which is normal). But now I almost exclusively shoot 175 grain Fed GM2 and the groups are consistent enough for me not to bother finding a new load. At least until all the GM2 is gone. She now will shoot anywhere between .4 to .6 or so. I have a few "bad" groups that go out to around .7 (hah!) but not too often if I do not screw up.

The rifle seems to hold up well at long range although I have not shot on paper beyond 200. It has made solid hits in wind out to 1000 yards so I can not complain. This help?

On a side note. I had the pleasure of meeting Kelly McMillan Thursday. A very nice gentleman indeed. I got to see his current line up close. Any of you looking to restock your Savage tacticals are best advized to give him a buzz. He has quite a selection for it, and just about any other rifle you'd expect to see in the "tactical" field. Plus a load of sporting stocks to boot.

Also picked up the new OTIS cleaning kits being issued to the Army for the M16 and M4. PLUS the new OTIS kit for the M40 series sniper rifle and possibly the M24. Excellent stuff! Review to follow.
Scott <>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 20:38:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Books, Vidio Tapes, Movies???

I'm working on a new Bibliography (a reading list, if you live in Rio Linda) for Sniper Country, and If you know of anything that would apply, please let me know.

Subjects should relate to Sniping, and long range shooting...
Historic, Equipment, Tactics, Ghillie suits, Technical, FM's and TM's, survival, tracking, military stuff, novels, biographies, movies (entertainment or instructional), etc.

Please include title, publisher, id number, (source, if military) anything else you can...

Please send it to me via e-mail, with "SC Bib!" in the subject line, so it doesn't get mixed up with the junk e-mail.



Pablito <>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 21:35:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

...anyone know after how many rounds through my stock Savage barrel (.308 tactical) should I consider a new one? ...or should I wait untill the groups start to spread out?
Keith <>
Sebring, FL, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 22:16:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
There were ads in either U.S.Cav or Brigade Quartermasters that claimed the German Army issued some units a combination sleeping bag/parka thing. Does anyone have any experience with it? Or is it like all the junk supposedly issued to Seals that isn't?

Note: The Dutch "Michelin Man" sleeping system didn't work worth a damn for me.

Last item for bug-out kit: The good casio altimeter watch. They are very useful for navigation. Shoot an azmuth to one point and know your elevation, you know where you are. If fog rolls in, you can easily navigate by elevation alone. Its also a good way to navigate through heavy trees in the mountains.
CDC <>
USA - Saturday, December 11, 1999 at 01:52:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Greetings all!

I would like some help please. I am interested in beginning long range shooting. This interest came about after I bought an Ishapore Enfield in .308 for plinking and discovered it would consistently outshoot my deer rifle. Anyway, at the moment I am more interested in finding a place to shoot and some friendly shooters that would help me in selecting hardware than which rifle is the best, what scope, etc. Anyone in the Space Coast area of Florida?

Thanks and best wishes,
Puck <>
Melbourne, FL, USA - Saturday, December 11, 1999 at 03:43:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Backup shotguns-- I'm a couple days late on this, sorry-- the good ol' 870 is a standby, for sure, but it is not the best. Any shotgun with a lifter is at a disadvantage; talking about the metal
Ned <>
XX, MI, USA - Saturday, December 11, 1999 at 05:07:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
Oh, hell. That last post didn't come through and now I have to retype the whole dang thing. Anyway-- talking about the metal flapper that you have to depress to load a round. On an 870 and most other shotguns, this slows loading and does a Chinese fingercuff number on your thumb if you stick it in too far while stuffing a round into the magazine. It'll just about peel the skin off of your thumb if you're not careful. The Browning BPS is an undiscovered, awsome tac shotgun, given a few mods. It has no lifter to impede loading. With the gun upside-down, you can drop a round onto the bolt carrier, grab another, and use the second one to push the first one in, and the second one follows it right in. Shoopshoop, two loaded for the price of one. It has a short, smooth stroke, is all steel, has an ambidextous safety. It is bottom eject, which is not a great big deal except that it is very positive and not dependent upon how smartly the slide is racked back. The disadvantage to it is that bottom eject shotguns have no port in the side of the receiver, so that when the gun is shot empty, you can't just rack it back, drop a round in through the ejection port, and slam it home. You have to close the action, load one into the magazine, and cycle it into the chamber. On the conversion I do, I cure this by simply cutting a loading port into the side of the receiver. Put on made-from-scratch ghost ring and front post sights with tritium inserts, a mag extension, cut the barrel to 18-22" and throw out the screw-in chokes, Parkerize the whole thing, and you have a definite 870-beater. But, with all this, I can't see a shotgun as being a viable backup to a sniper rifle-- too heavy and bulky! A 1911 with a well-fitted aftermarket barrel and good sights, makes you very dangerous to at least 100 yards if you will practice with it a bit.
Ned <>
xx, MI, USA - Saturday, December 11, 1999 at 05:22:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
Oh, hell. That last post didn't come through and now I have to retype the whole dang thing. Anyway-- talking about the metal flapper that you have to depress to load a round. On an 870 and most other shotguns, this slows loading and does a Chinese fingercuff number on your thumb if you stick it in too far while stuffing a round into the magazine. It'll just about peel the skin off of your thumb if you're not careful. The Browning BPS is an undiscovered, awsome tac shotgun, given a few mods. It has no lifter to impede loading. With the gun upside-down, you can drop a round onto the bolt carrier, grab another, and use the second one to push the first one in, and the second one follows it right in. Shoopshoop, two loaded for the price of one. It has a short, smooth stroke, is all steel, has an ambidextous safety. It is bottom eject, which is not a great big deal except that it is very positive and not dependent upon how smartly the slide is racked back. The disadvantage to it is that bottom eject shotguns have no port in the side of the receiver, so that when the gun is shot empty, you can't just rack it back, drop a round in through the ejection port, and slam it home. You have to close the action, load one into the magazine, and cycle it into the chamber. On the conversion I do, I cure this by simply cutting a loading port into the side of the receiver. Put on made-from-scratch ghost ring and front post sights with tritium inserts, a mag extension, cut the barrel to 18-22" and throw out the screw-in chokes, Parkerize the whole thing, and you have a definite 870-beater. But, with all this, I can't see a shotgun as being a viable backup to a sniper rifle-- too heavy and bulky! A 1911 with a well-fitted aftermarket barrel and good sights, makes you very dangerous to at least 100 yards if you will practice with it a bit.
Ned <>
xx, MI, USA - Saturday, December 11, 1999 at 05:23:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
Howdy folks,
Have a Quick question. Do any of you use VihaVuori powder? If you do, do you like it and how does it preform in your expearence. Also the load Data that I have uses Sako cases and Wnchester WLR primers. I have never seen a Sako case does anyone know how it compares with the federal gold medal cases? Reason I want to know is because I have no desire to have a weapon blow up in my face and harm this tender young hide. What I have been useing in my 308 175 Gr Sierra Match king bullets, 44.0 grains Hodgdon Varget powder with Federal Gold match primers and the federal gold medal brass. And it shoots very well. But I do not have lots "advanced" reloading expearence and need some help with this. Also the VihtaVuori load data does not have the 175 grain bullet listed it goes from 170 and jumps to 180 grains. And I really want to try this powder without damage to me or the weapon. Thanks, Merry Christmas to all And may the God of all GI's Bless them and their famlies in faraway lands.
Stagger P.S. You need to vote for the man of the century so far the top 15 does not include the American GI to vote go to
stagger lee <Lmcpher104@aol .com>
IN, USA - Tuesday, December 14, 1999 at 19:17:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hi all, it seems as if we have a problem, but I can only trust that Ken has it under control like normal.

Marius Ferreira <>
RSA - Tuesday, December 14, 1999 at 22:19:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Stagger Lee,
I have used VV with the SAKO brass, which is the same as Lapua brass and its excellent brass, about the same cap. as the Federal Match. I have used VV-N140 and VV-N550 and both shot extremly well. The 500 series is faster than the 100 series. I used it on the 168s but I am sure you would have just as good or results with the 175s you might want to try N-150 instead of the 140 but the 140 may shoot just as well or better so its up to you. The 550 should be ideal for the 175s. I would use the data for the 180 and work up a half of a grain or so and see what it does. Good Luck!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 02:07:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
What are some of the latest thoughts on the readily available data books, namely:

Tactical & Survival Specialties

Any thoughts, comparisons, recommendations?

Lee Crestling <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 03:06:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Stagger Lee,

Vihta Vouri is great stuff at about 43.5 to 43.9 grs, I like the load you got...................

Works for Me!

BIG STILL RANINING CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 04:40:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ned;scenerio time. You are going to gun fight. You don't know the range or the terrain city/jungle/plains whatever. You don't know if the enemy is standing up Dodge City style or darting using cover or has bullet proof vest or not. All you know is there will be a fight to the death. There are two guns at your disposal. A super tricked out 1911 accurate as can be had or a 12 Ga. lets say 870 for simplicity and you can carry 50 rounds of buckshot/slugs or a combination of all for the shot gun or a couple hundred rounds of .45. The barrel of the shot gun is a smooth bore 18" cylinder bore with rifle iorn sights on it. You have a sniper rifle also to carry. But you will do whatever with it to stay alive. Just for the sake of the Scenerio. Remember that one will be dead when it's over. Other than that there are no rules.
What gun and why?
B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 05:21:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bill R,
I'll take the Shot Gun because when it gets close and personal and the pressure is on I won't have time to aim, as for the body armor, head shoot or shoot the Pelvis area. They go down hard and stay down and bleed to death. If I have the sniper rifle they will have to come after me or die where they stand simple math in my book. Now let the arguments start!!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 06:29:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hot dang, a scenerio! Can we put an AK or an AR beside the others? LOL

Do I have body armor?

How many sniper rounds do I get to carry?

One on one, multiple targets, or not specified?

Answer to follow.
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 07:01:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

In this scenario, we don't know the scenario? Don't know if it's a hump in the mountains, night/day, swim, snow, desert, city, multiple day, house clearing? We don't know the size, activity, location, time, equipment or training of opponent(s)? I have to carry them, manage them under stress, present them as necessary, and get my hits.

Answer: Good rifle for offense, 1911 for defense.

And fix me a sandwich. I'll be right back.


CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 07:31:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mr Leatherwood is marketing a new ART type scope with a few interesting features...
Do you have any thoughts about this kind of scope?


P. Marcos
P.Marcos <>
-, -, Portugal - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 07:38:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hot dang. Now we'uns get to it! First answer. Forget the scattergun and the sniper rifle. Take the M1A in sniper format with good quick detach scope rings. Or a similar AR-10 / SR. Works good enough at range (if you got a good one), as well as or better than the scatter gun for within 200 yds. Then, since you were talking pistol, the 1911 (GLOCK) is a good companion. Body armor? Two mags of 308 AP (like it's needed, HA!) Naval boarding parties clean house with one, a 12 guage, and a 45. Now THEY mean buisiness!
I say this because: carrying 2 long barrels sucks. Carrying enough shot shells sucks. Small mag capacity in shotguns suck. Same for the small capacity in bolt guns. Sucks. For a good cross of long range capability and quick handling / shooting, the semi's can't be beat (well, except by REAL pro's!). If weight is a concern beyond the M1A weight, leave the pistol at home and carry a few more rifle mags!
In your "Dodge City" scenario (Detroit?) I would rather have that M1A, as I get target to target faster, and more accurately. Not to mention having 20 rounds on tap is a comfortable feeling!
At least that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 07:58:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Stagger Lee, Great powder. I run faster, N135, due to gas gun restrictions. Could you tell I like the M1A? I just don't like paying for the VV powder. If in doubt, back down a couple grains and work up. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do anyway!
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 08:05:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
I guess I would leave the shotgun at the ranch.McMillan M40A1 w/M1LR
Sig P220 with six magazines of Hydroshock, and my 3day pack should hold out nicely.
Let's take it to the next level.
1.The urban gunfight is over and you have managed to come out on top.You have expended ,lets say just over half of your ammunition load.
2.Targets, lets say three for the sake of possible multiple engagments,have E&E'd to the foot hills heading up into the mountians.And being the unrelenting sniper that you are.You have given chase.
3.Before the three remaining pulled out they managed to get a call out and now you have a team at your six as well.
Question:Did you grab the proper gear to make it happen or have you just become the hunted?????
Come on guys think about it and no cheating.We are assuming that you just grabbed weapons and alert kit and do not have a cache to fall back on.

Next Question: Anyone know anything about the Israeli's using M1Garands fitted with PVS2's? What kind of mounts and accessories did they use? Did they have any sucess.Reason I ask is my rifle is chambered in 30.06 and I am considering the Garand as a viable spotters weapon.
Don <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 08:10:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

It seems as if Ken had some hardware problems, and we have lost some of our Duty Roster entries. I am not sure yet whether Ken has got backups of these specifically that we can recover from. As such I am asking that anybody that has got a copy of the Duty Roster with (some) of the missing info email it to me, and I will edit it in again.

Thursday is public holiday here and we're going away directly after work tomorrow, coming back Saturday afternoon. So I'll only respond to those who send me anything on Saturday night soonest.

Marius Ferreira <>
RSA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 08:36:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Enough people have asked that I invested some time into the Duty Roster scripts. There are those of you who, for reasons of your own, would like to see the Duty Roster in reverse chronological order. Well, I have decided to grant your wish.

I am not going to change the order on this one, but have changed the script to create a duplicate Duty Roster, only in reverse order. If you point your browsers to the Sniper Country Duty Roster in Reverse Chronological Order, you should be pleased. (Hope that works.)

But please note that I will not keep the archives in this sequence. Come archive time I'll just delete the relevant entries from the Reverse order Duty Roster. Also, to make my life in maintenance easier, entry will only be allowed on THIS Duty Roster, and not on the reverse-order one.

When I next work on the Roster I will also put up a link right at the top.

Marius Ferreira <>
RSA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 08:42:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

My God we'll be hunting Sarge next! This is just like competetion shooting. Some SOB always wants to change the rules. In a gun fight there are no rules. Like coyote hunting. Stick to the pure fact that it is a gun fight and you don't know when or where. All bases are to be covered. You don't even know what the opponent/opponents will be shooting. Maximum survivability is your goal. You go in and you come out. Can you hit a moving target at 50 yards with a 1911?
Or even with your sniper rifle?
Can you take out multiple targets that are moving toward you at 25-50 yards with a pistol? Can you hit a target in the head if that's your only target even at 25 yards. Just a thinking exercise...on this blustry winter day? Not complaining really about the changes all adds to the fun.
I did one of those action pistol things once (a modified version) and there were hostages. I tied a guy with a mp-40 for 1st place. He fired over 100 rounds where I fired 22 with my 1911. (only 2 best hits counted.) Ranges varied from 6' to 120 yards. I also ran it (you could do as many times as you wanted to enter)with a 12 gauge 870 and a Mini -14 ranch rifle with 2.5 scope. Even managed to free the hostage (range 12') with my 870 #4 buck shot. Best time was with the .45 and the Mini-14. (clips made the difference). But had the targets been moving I suspect the 870 would have taken over. Perhaps the 120 yard target would be better served with the Mini-14. But the #4 buck filled the target with holes. There were full auto M-16's UZI's and a BAR in the contest by the way. One AR-15 and a SKS, and If I remember there was a Valmet AK-47 who was second place. It was a kind of experimental thing but it was informative to all.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 08:42:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Damn guys, stick to the rules 1911 or shot gun!!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 09:05:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
What Brother Bill said! Now, Don, we (I) talked your shot-gun question to death. Let's have a go at Bill's scenario. It will be instructional to hear what some of the resident hot-shots think.

Rod? Gooch?

CDC <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 09:14:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill R...

What's this crap about "no rules gun fights"... You gotta' have rules, this is America. Think of all the lawyers and politicians that wouldn't have jobs if there weren't any rules.

It works like... you kick in a door, and the perp has a stock .45 and you have a IPSC Full Race Gun... the Judge lets him off, cuz you had an unconstitutional advantage... see what I mean?
You catch him at a 7-11 an midnight, and he has a 22 revolver, and you have a Browning 9mm...
Two violations... you got a bigger gun, and you got more bullets... so two against you. The Judge lets him off, PLUS you gotta' pay his cab fair home... you're startin' to catch on!

Now... it works the other way too... you kick in the door, and you have a whimpy Glock 9mm, and he has 12 gauge... not fair, since he has the advantage... but he shoots you and he goes home, Cuz there's no living witness' left.
Now you've got... he always goes home, and you always loose!!


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 09:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address:


All these rules makes me want to go back to shooting a TC contender in 218 Bee.

Michael <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 09:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

If the rules won't let you win, CHEAT!

"Kubiashi Maru"
(sorry if you don't know the reference)
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 10:08:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm trying to put together a nice rifle but some pieces are still missing, like the bipod. The Harris has all the springs and what not sticking out, Parker Hale is good, heavy, and expensive, Versa-Pod is not bad. OK. I knew that. But, why does'nt anybody say anything about the B-Square? It looks like a neat design, with some options too. Is there something seriously wrong with it?
p <>
- Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 10:12:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just wanted to move things into tactics and fieldcraft. There's more to it than tying some burlap to your jammies , grabbing something out of the rolling, pull behing rifle bag and heading out to hero land.
"Well Buffy I think the 300 winchester iron for this shot."
I have put alot of thought into the backup gun thing and have learned alot from people answering my post(Thanks guys) and have come to this conclusion.Keep the weight down. Remember that you have to stalk with it and carry enough ammunition to keep it fed.Most important is to be well trained with it.For me, I think I will save the money and practice more with my Sig P220.
Backing out till the CS clears.

Don <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 11:34:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

To Jim Mitchell Re: Kubiashi Maru
You really had me racking my brain there for a minute until I figured out that you spelled it wrong.
It's spelled Kobayashi Maru (no-win scenario). All star fleet recruit s have to go thru this as part of their basic training. (Star Trek #47)
So what do I win?

To Bill R.
Ever watch a 10 year old kid bust 25 straight clay birds traveling about 70 mph, about 40 to 50 yards from the firing line? A two legged target cant travel that fast.
I'll take a shotgun.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 11:57:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

And the next Contestant is:

I'll take the 1911, if you don't mind. As previous posters have pointed out, it's a real B!tc# to by lugging around two long guns with different ammo. The range and armor penetrating capacity of the sniper rifle (I choose the M21) makes it the primary weapon. What I'm looking for is a backup - i.e. something you shouldn't need unless the air circulating device has been fouled. The shotgun is a bit too big and heavy for that.

Now if we are talking about a two man team, the answer is different. While both members have pistols of some sort (1911, tupperware, M9's, Webley-Fosbery's), does the second guy carry a carbine or a shotgun as his primary weapon? There are advantages/disadvantages to both. My opinion is that the shotgun wins out because it maximizesh. MM versatility.

Just my take.

Karl <>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 12:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

B Rogers,
I'll take the 870 with mixed ammo, slugs and buck. You can easily load and shoot it with one hand, either hand. It also has speed and some range versatility. However I would select 2 3/4 inch loads they are easier to handle. The 870 is fast also and points well for me. A shotgun in the hands of an aggessor I feel is more intimidating. Also you said "carry" a sniper rifle. Do we also get ammo?
Port Orford, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 13:14:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
All right, I get the thinly veiled "you cheated" stuff. Answer #2. Take the 45 auto. With lots-o-mags, been practicing lots of Mozambiques! In a unexpected twist, I choose the 225gr truncated cone TMJ's though, loaded to the gills (almost). I know from prior experience that I can hit moving targets at 25 yds easy. Harder to hit 'em if I'M moving! Good to go with half ammo? Guess that depends on HOW MUCH I GOT TO TAKE WITH ME INITIALLY!

'Lito: good reason to "make sure the attack was stopped" as our local police cheif told me (you go home, he assumes room temperature). Hey, he wouldn't quit attacking (moving), so I didn't quit shooting! At least that was the answer to the question "how much is too much". I think the "good gun / bad gun" thing is WAY over rated. Most of us won't HAVE to shoot. Just having it, "brandishing" it, and proper attitude should suffice. Who WANTS to tangle with a guy pointing a "whimpy Glock 9mm" at you? If it does come to it, and the shooting is truly richeous, the jury will go with you regardless of what you used. Only in questionable cases does it enter, and I try to stay out of those situations. Robbie and the bag-o-nike? And besides, I take that "whimpy Glock 9mm" personally :-O
Bravo <>
High desert plains, Utah, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 13:30:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

Holiday Greetings to all,

Looking for a .308 load for the 175grn. Seirra MKHP using VarGet (I've got a bunch of it). I've got a great load for the 168 grn. but not sure where to start with the 175 grn.
Jeff <>
McKinney, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 13:31:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

For the 175's and Hodgon Varget, you should start somewhere in between 43.0-43.5 grains. Work up from there and you should see some good groups depending on the twist rate of your barrel.

Out here.


Casey <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 14:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lets see in the Kobayashi Maru reference I believe the actual quote was If the rule's won't let you win, change the rules! So I'm changing the rules, don't want the 1911 or shotgun. All I want is a select fire MP5! Best CQB gun made! Second choice CAR15 with ACOG Reflex II mounted in front of the carry handle so now I have a CQB weapon and one to "Reach out and touch someone"!

Man can I stir it or what!!


Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 16:33:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Who has the best prices on HS Precision stocks? I've looked in the Sniper Country PX, and the prices look pretty good, is that about the average?

Tom <>
Fremont, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 17:04:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mr. Rogers, you really kicked loose some chunks with the scenario question! I'd take the 1911 or even a less accurate pistol, as long as it was reliable and in a meaningful caliber. I believe this would be "righter" for me. I'm a fair shot with both, but more practiced with the pistol. Happy to say I have not survived a gunfight with either one (yes, that's how I meant to say it!), and the closest experience I can claim is competition, but some of it has been fairly high-stakes, so I have some idea of what works for me when there is something riding on it. Of course, I believe you did say 50 rds shotgun or 100 rds pistol, that helped.... nah. Woulda chosen the pistol anyway. Somebody made the comment about not being able to miss up close with the shotgun. Man, I guarantee you can! Done it many a time, buckshot at 25', target no fallee. With the pistol you get ease of carry, ease of handling and rapid fire, you can fire it from just about any scrunched-up position you find yourself in, don't have to make a lot of movement in shooting it, there's less flash and a little less noise, you can be deadly at 50 plus yards, dangerous at 100, and real scary well past that; it's quick to top off... concealment might even come in since we don't know anything about our "assignment". Do I get a cyanide tooth on this mission? Please, can I, please?
Ned <>
XX, MI, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 17:44:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Now your talking my language with the HK Sarge. If I'am operating alone or as a sniper team against multiple enemy forces I'am staying as far away as possible to still be effective. The rule of thumb for engagement/disengagement criteria is 3:1 superiority or avoid enemy contact. The only reason I would need my BACKUP weapon is if things have gone to poop and I need to get out of Dodge. For that purpose I want the sustained rate of fire of an MP5 or AR15. (and as long as we're changing the rules I'd still like my M203)

I have a question about proper break in procedures for a new barrel.
I'll soon have the pleasure of doing this for the first time and I would appreciate any advice. I'am sure this has been covered here before so I leave it to your discretion weather to post your response or send me an e-mail. Thanks
Paul J. Martoccia <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 17:49:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

How in the hell did Captain Kirk and his sneaky tricks get brought up on Sniper Country??

Situation: If you've got the sniper rifle, why are you foolin' around w/ either the pistol or the shotgun??? Creep into a good position to observe the area, while watching your own back. Be patient. Wait. Watch. When you see him (or her), shoot. Then extract.

Carry the .45 because it's less to lug around than the shotgun.

If you're out of rounds for the rifle, and extraction prior to removal of this opponent is not possible (forcing you to fall back and use the backup arm): I have to say that it depends on YOU! I like my shotgun, but I know that I suck with one. I like my .45, and can hit things much easier and more accurately with it. For ME, it's the .45 hands down. Someone else here, I'm sure, had better go with the shotgun instead of the pistol. It's personal.

Shoot, I'd rather have a radio myself, just call in and direct F/A-18 fire onto their ass.....

Leslie <>
VA-TN, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 18:00:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm thinking of mounting my 700PSS on the AICS. Just want to get
everyone's opinion before I make the purchase. How is the stock
over all? does the parts fit together well? Does it provide the action
with a stable platform to shoot ? thanks
golgo13 <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 20:38:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Give me the SHOTGUN !! Please ! As much as I like the .45(SIG 220)it IS a defensive weapon. Yes I can shoot out past 50 yds with one but can laydown much more accurate fire with a shotgun. In fact...make the shotgun MY Benelli 121 M1 !!! Does that tell anyone how long I have had it ? Besides, have you ever tried to buttstroke someone with a .45? I don't care what body armor the perp is wearing...getting tagged with a 12 ga. slug means you have "flail chest" and you need major medical help !! Put a "T.E.A.M." sling on the shotgun and you are Good to Go and there are speed loaders available for shotguns now so....

As for the HK MP5...not unless it is .45 cal. No more of this spray & pray stuff. I'll load the scattergun w/ Brenneke slug and #4 buck and have the .45 as a "back-up" heh heh heh

To all who have responded about what finish on my rifle, thanks, Now then...has anyone worked with GunKote??
Out Here
Will <>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 20:57:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Howdy Ya'll!!! Does anyone have any reloading data for the 55 grain ballistic tip in .243 Winchester? I can't find this information any where. By the way, has anyone heard from Recon lately? Thanks!!! --- Spot
jeff conaway <>
Pocola, OK, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 21:03:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
Back-up guns

One sniper only:
I think a sniper is most of the time better of with a sniper rifle (usually a bolt action) and a pistol (preferably with a snap-op silencer). This is0due to the fact that a lone sniper should not, I repeat, should not enter into close range gun fights if at all possible. If I am going to attack something close and personal, I will leave my sniper rifle home thank you. And then I would choose an assault rifle or a SMG over any shotgun. This is maybe a bit prejudiced, but fast reloadability, easy shooting, more pentration and lighter ammo come to my mind in favor of rifles and/or SMG´s over any shotgun.

Sniper team:
Sniper has his rifle, both men have their pistols with at least one suppressor if at all possible. The spotter should have a semiauto or fullauto rifle with some optics. Here in Finland where we use 7.62X39 as our assault rifle ammo and the shooting ranges usually are less than 500 metres, a scoped Valmet RK62 or Sako RK95 assault rifle with a low-power (4X?) scope with a QD-mount would suffice.In the USA a AR-15 or M-16, M-4 or M203 would be the ticket due to ammo and and spare part availability. The rifle could be equipped with a suppressor in order to make it harder to spot the firing position, but one can live without a suppressor too. In a rifle firing full-power ammo a suppressor will only hide the firing position, but not the fact that a rifle has been used. This has two positive aspects: 1) the attacking party knows that someone tries to shoot them 2) they do not know where precisely this fire comes from. This should slow them down somewhat.

MP-5 ? I do not think a spotter would like to have a mere 9 mm squirt gun if problems arise. Of course a suppressed MP-5 SD could be usefull sometimes, but a silenced 9mm SMG is not very good in defensive shooting. It lacks power and its noise signature is so low that the attackers do not even hear it if they shoot their own assault rifles.-> They would not care about this shooting, unless someone is hit. Myabe the sniper could have a MP-5k PDW instead of his pistol, but it would make life more difficult than a pistol. In any case a mere 9 mm SMG as the "heavy firepower" of the team is not very wise.

Shotguns ? No thanks. Ammo is heavy, effective range is pretty short (unless custom shotguns with Vang comps and the like), recoil is pretty heavy. Only slugs have effect against bodyarmor (momentum works, even in cases where the slugs do not penetrate) and then you lose the shot-spread advantage of the shotgun. Saiga-12 or Saiga-20 would be possible models, as they have a robust self-loading mechanism (AK-47 style), military version have folding stocks and the rifle can be loaded with fast-changing magazines. This way you can reload faster and change ammo from slugs to buckshot and back.

I have thought about arming the sniper with a folding-stock assault rifle. The idea would be, that when using a drag bag the sniper rifle is in the bag and the assault rifle in hand. And when sniper rifle is used, the assault rifle is in the bag. Of somewhat similar methods I have read in Vietnam era books, where the USMC sniper team had both sniper rifles AND M-14 rifles for every member of the team. This way they could fight both short and long range figths. Problem is that you can not go very far as you have to leave most of your gear to the camp. This two rifle concept works probably only for short time assignments close to the base camp.

In any case the sniper team should try to avoid short range fights as their equipment does not offer any advantages over any AK-47/74 at close range. The idea with a sniper rifle is to shoot from such a long distance that the receiving party can not fight you with regular weapons even if they knew where you are. (Of course artillery fire, anti-tank missiles and helicopter rockets and cannon fire are always possible and camouflage is of utmost importance.) In short range contacts all advantages are lost, of course snipers usually have cooler heads and shoot better, but basically you give away you advantages if you let the enemy fight you at close range.-> Move wisely and use camouflage and the risk is limited, if not totally removed.

Take care.

Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 21:28:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Making Fire ???

Sorry to interrupt your game of 12 gauge and .45 tag.

Does anyone have a source for powdered magnesium ???????

I did see some at an SOF convention last year, but cant get a hold of the dealer.

torsten <>
germany - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 00:15:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sniper back up ?

Heckler & Koch G 36, not only my choice, but issued !

light, fire power, scoped, red dot sight, folding stock, attachable mags, and you can wear it hands free on your back like a ruck/biathalon style.

Had one with me all last weekend wore it on my back even over the ghillie.

I´ll go with the new development instead of the dinosaurs of the last century.

torsten <>
Germany - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 00:41:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm looking for some kind of shooting vest that I can wear when I'm shooting rifles that will protect my shoulder from getting the hell beat out of it. I don't really care for a thick, soft pad in the shoulder area; but rather I'd like an area of about 5"x8" of a pad that is nearly inflexible that will distribute the recoil force over a larger area.

Any helpfull hints would be appreciated, as these 300 Win Mag seem to shoot their best when the 190 grain MK's are really smoking out of the barrel. It's getting hard to work up a load when I've gotta rest my shoulder for 2 days after shooting 40 round one day.
the Judge <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 01:05:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hell, if we're changing the rules: Send in the one-oh-one thunder-chickens and bring me a cup of coffee Capm' Kirk. Make sure they have plenty of close-air and keep me posted.

1911 or 870?

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 01:29:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry for the double post. The previous one was written before my having read Torsten, Heikki and the other responses to Sarge. This is interesting stuff.

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 01:42:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Stay away from the B-Square bipod. I used one on a hunting trip in the rockies and it fell apart. I couldn't imagine how poor it would be when stalking in a low crawl. I finally got tired of feeding it with lock-tite and threw it out. Stick with the Harris. Get the one with the detent legs. If the springs bother you, thats what they make duck tape (100 mile) or burlap wrap for. Just my opinion.
Tony Y <>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 02:56:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
If you cant find magnesium !

Potassium and glycerin works well to, and you dont need a flint !

have the potassium (also good for many other things like water purification) in a 30 mm film canister and the glycerin in a oiler.

torsten <>
germany - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 04:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

>>How in the hell did Captain Kirk and his sneaky tricks get brought up on Sniper Country??<<

Give me the superior tactics/intel and I'll take the less effective of the .45 vs shotgun debate, and I'll win. My point matters more how you setup the engagement than what toy you bring.

I constantly change the rules of engagement to win. I fight fires, extricate injured people from motor vehicles and mitigate HazMat incidents for fun. Every one of these scenarios set you up to lose by default. Winners come home, losers get hurt....same thing in combat...right?
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 05:49:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Guys..This is a little off the beaten path, but I need some assistance! I am working a homicide where the victim was shot 3 times through the windshield. There is currently a large and I mean Large disagreement as to where the shooter was located when the shots were fired. Is there anyone out there that can point me in the right direction to obtain data on the effects of bullets shot through glass? Any help you can provide would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks
Lawton, OK, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 06:28:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
By the way..forgot to mention..weapon used was a 38 caliber revolver.
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 06:29:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone have any info regarding any 200 or longer ranges in easter KS/western MO. I live in lawrence, Kansas City is only 40 mins to the east. I'd be willing to drive afew hours.... (which im sure will be required)

Chris <>
Lawrence, KS, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 06:43:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Three definitions of cheating:

1. Not fighting by Marquis of Queensbury: Good. Cheat first, cheat fast, cheat vigorously until the issue is settled.

2. JOOTS is Capm’ Kirk’s trick: Jump Outside Of The System. This is what Jim Mitchell does. Its smart.

3. Assuming a problem condition is different than it is: The Economist stuck in the well assumes a ladder. This one is a no-go. But, in order to get out, we first assume it can be done.

Bill’s problem statement specifys (1911 v 870) as a constraint. Doesn't matter. It’s fun to watch these threads unravel.

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 07:46:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm getting a scope that is 6 - 24 power(mil-dots). The range I want to shoot is 100 to 800 yards. Do I want to zero the scope in at 300 or 400 yards???
seattle, wa, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 09:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just to stir the pot a bit more

The 45 is so light why not carry it in addition to the shotgun?
For that matter why not carry a car with a shogun mounted below the barrel?
Or better yet a grenade launcher.
Or even better a rocket launcher.

Man the cold medicine must be getting to me

Michael <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 11:21:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just an opinion question -

Does anyone have a comment on the use of the 357 SIG as a tactical sidearm caliber? It matches the .357 Mag, ballistically, and should nicely blend the advantages of the 9mm and .45 in the way of modest ammo weight, semi-auto operation, good knock-down power, very good accuracy.


Semper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 11:25:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mingler, Re: short range sight-in
I dont know about anyone else, but with the cartridges that I use, 30-06, 308 etc. I use a 9 inch pie plate and sight in to hit dead center when holding at 6'00 on the bottom edge of the plate. Most cartridges in this power class will shoot exactly 4.5 inches above point of aim at 200 yards and also be 4.5 inches high at 100 yards, and about 5.5 inches high at 150 yards and dead on at 275 yards. i like the idea of using the same hold for both 100 and 200 yards.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 12:15:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
CDC; true, I've learned one thing here. Make the scenerio as simple as possible and the rules as tight as you can. The rest of the rules and complication of the scenerio will soon evolve.
Sarge; if you keep talkin like that I am gonna be Sarge huntin again.
You scoundrel! Let it all hang out boys.
Mingler; Normal procedure is to sight in at 100 yards.
The target is then ranged using the Mil Dots and elevation for that range based on the correction at 100 yards is dialed into the turrets.
Some use the Dots themselves as elevation graduations and memorize where they are zeroed but that only works to a point as the resolution kind of suffers using the football shaped dots. It's hard to tell exactly where your looking.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 12:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
See what you started, good job. I wonder how many of the people that have answered have been in a situation that has involved shots fired. Also the comment suggesting 3:1 superiority has me confused. The is no superior combatant to a U.S.Marine. I expected someone to mention using a knife to get what they need. Also no mention of stealth or concealment was interesting. Oh well what next BILL:)?
frank <>
n.bend, or, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 12:26:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
Guys, to end the "What-ifs" by armchair quarterbacks and snipers, try doing what we teach our young soldiers and NCOs when tackling a problem -- use some mission analysis tools. Instead of packing the kitchen sink and about nine bazillion tools, guns, and ghillies, solve your problem using METT-T or METT-TP. Mission (what is it I'm trying or tasked to do?) - Equipment (what do I have available? Do I have too much?) - Time (available or not)- Troops - Terrain (and temperature -- is it 105 degrees out, or below freezing and snowing?) - and for cops or someone who has to deal with the press or public, Political ramifications of what you're doing (if you should succeed or fail, once it's on the front page of a newspaper or plastered across CNN, you're damned if you've won, and damned if you've lost). Having every possible tool and trick in the world is useless if you failed what you were trying to do. No sense dragging along excess gear if it gets you busted or killed (or you'll go hungry if you're hunting meat). How about OKOCA (or O, A COK for you with your mind in the gutter) -- Objective - Key terrain - Obstacles - Cover (or concealment) - and Avenues of approach. Soldiering's a THINKING profession. It can apply to your fieldcraft and hunting as well.
Dave Liwanag <>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 14:44:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
SPRINGLAKE, NC, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 15:06:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
No tactical nukes?!
Utgardaloki <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 15:18:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
Start a thread with that, Dave. Sounds like you're fully qualified.

CDC <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 15:56:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

"There is no combatant superior to a Marine..." (or SEAL, Ranger, Beanie Baby, Combat Controller, etc...).
Believing your own press releases is a good way to get hurt. Remember what Sun Tzu said.

Listen to what Dave L. speaks of, for it is gospel.

Ed <>
NY, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 16:50:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Will the owner of Fluffy the Wondergun and Buttercup please step out of the shadows. Stop lurking and start posting, Master.
Ned <>
XX, MI, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 17:04:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey knock it off! We don't talk tactics and field craft here. Only talk about the toys and gimmiks that most of us only dream about having.
About how technology can compensate for skills and knowledge. Who was it that said,"Fear the man who owns but one rifle" I've had enough. Will check back when we get over the AK/AR,1911/shotgun,I can beat you up,Cpt.Kirk(well Star Trek is cool I guess)stuff. Anyway, can we get back into the nuts and bolts of the mission and not just the hardware.I'm sorry I ever asked about the shotgun.We did manage to get some good stuff going on the alert gear. Learned a little there.
Don <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 17:14:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have just bought a Bushmaster XM15 E2S with a 16" barrel on it. I am looking at buying a scope for it and new some advice. I would like a good middle priced range scope. One that is good out to 600 yds. I am not looking for a top of the line scope, but I don't believe in buying cheap equipment. If anyone can tell me of some good models I would apprecioate it. Thanks Tony
Tony Bec ker <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 17:51:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
Heikki and Dave got it down guys. Any sniper out in the open at 300 yards against a couple o squads with kalashnikovs is one dead sniper.

Learned some about site prep for ambushes, seems this scenario would be ripe for it. As much as I truly hated digging those odd positions for that stupid dragon, I think something just like it would be great for multiple targets. Or I could be off my crock. Hey pro's: what kind of positions you REALLY dig? Just little spider holes, or next to nothing? How about the dirt? We just tossed it, but it could be seen. WHADDA YA DO?

Roger Lays: Ballistics ALMOST 357. Or as good as 9X21, or peppy 38 super, or major 9 para. I know a guy that HAD to get the new Sig. Lots-o-jams. He did his own ammo though, and I suspect that over a bad sig any day. Besides, if you shoot anything with a bore less than 429, they make fun of you :-)

Torsten: VWR (Van Waters, Rogers) has enough to melt tanks. Same for Alfa Aesar, GFS, etc. If you have access to shipyards, I can get you a lovely recipe for incendiary. Still needs a light (mag ribbon is great), but burns SUPER hot. Makes it's own fuel too, and burn hotter in water. Got German address for VWR if interested.
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 18:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don; But what if you hadn't asked?
Awards time.
The high point of the whole discussion was when someone called for air support!
Low point when Sarge wanted to exchange my shotgun and 1911 for a Mitel toy!
Most practical Oscar goes to Frank in Oregon who broke it down so elequently and agrees with my own ideas so naturally he wins the cigar.
Most Cynical award to Pablito for his system barbeque.

Honorable mention to all the scenerio butchers who turned a simple gun battle between 2 cowboys into a 911 emergency or a sniper mission presumably out of reverence to the site.

Last but by no means least was Utgardaloki who ended the whole mess in Nuclear splendor worthy of the fiasco.

B.Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 18:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

This mission sucked from the start. The intel was terrible. If yougo out after one person then all you need is you're issued M40A1, or whatever you are issued. Carry a back-up handgun just incase. You shouldn't take on more than you can handle. But since we did I'm gonna magicaly change my rifle for MY ISPC AR10 and my backup hand gun is gonna be my PARA P16 with the mag extensions it holds 19+1. Ican SHOOT them both.
Jeff Cooper <>
Memphis, tn, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 19:01:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
How about a Sniper/Hi-power related question...

Point of impact vs. sunlight position/height

Our team was training the other day. We were shooting at targets at 100 and 200 yards. Our targets were 1 moa diamond shapes. The sun was low on the horizon, it was 9:00 AM. Our targets were at the 12 o'clock position, the sun was bright and at the 10-11 position. There was no wind, the temp was 20 degrees.

Three of us shot and at each range, our groups were .75-1 moa right of our target.

**Question!!!!! Did the sunlight position/height affect our perception of the target location??? or is there something else to explain what happened??? Interested in your comments.


Tim <>
osceola, wi, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 20:40:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sniper Backup,

Suppressed pistol or SMG,by choice's,HK P-7 has fixed barrel,uneffected by suppressor weight,in SMG's the L34 Sterling,MP-5SD,Mini-Uzi or the new HK UMP.
In the Falkland's some sniper's carried the Sterling instead of a pistol,and some of their observer's carried L34 suppressed Sterling's,to eliminate trouble if surprised at close quarter's.
The pistol ,SMG and most importantly the Sniper Rifle should all have a good suppressor mounted or available,too disreguard their use and application because of individual attitude's toward's ownership by certain countrie's,is to ignore both history and technology.
As reguardless of the legal issue's in your country,silencer's are very ,very easly made by almost any fitter/turner,they are after all just a muffer for a gun instead of for the car.
I tend to favour the pistol, Welrod anyone.

Chris <>
New Zealand - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 20:46:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

received this question via e mail, and will also answer it here !

How do you like the new G36? I've seen footage of it with the fellows
deployed to Bosnia, and it looks very compact. Any problems with the dot sight (brightness/battery life)?

The red dot has a slide open cover, for day operation, has a fancy LISA plastic light collector that powers the sight during daytime. works 70 % of the weather we have here, then you can always turn on the diode, and by pressing the button you can increase the light output for 30 seconds , then it goes back to normal again.

I find it a little to bright at night, and the dot size covers a siluette at 300 meters, so it is purely a short range, both eyes open, head´s up(its the topmost sight) snap shot tool. Any further engagements would be shot with the scope (at the bottom for stock weld), which is practical for this type of rifle.
Battery live is about 48 hours continous on, which I think sucks big time as there is no automatic off if you forget it. But we have shot with little calyume sticks (peanut) taped over the light collector.

Also you can zero the G 36 with one round like the sheperd scopes. one sight adjusted on the point of aim, the other on the bullet impact, and then both on point of impact.

torsten <>
germany - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 20:52:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, the topic of "real experience" comes up endlessly on this site and it's time to address it. There probably is no arguement (you won't get one from me) that training, no matter how realistic, does not make up for the real thing. You simply don't know how you will react until someone is pointing a gun at you and little flashes are seen from the front of the barrel. History suggests that battle hardened troops have usually faired better than newbies, even specially trained newbies.

Where does one get the experience we all reference endlessly? C'mon, let's hear some ideas. I still think running as an inner city cop or medic gives you some excellent "my butt is on the line, confrontation training". If you haven't done it, you shouldn't make fun of it, cause it's no game. Some of these folks are sharp as razors...many have been shot at.

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 04:43:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

Im looking into getting a McMillian A2 for my Savage 110FP. What i was wondering was if someone could fill me in on what i am getting myself into with getting this action to work with this stock. What i know at this point is that it will fit into the Remington cut stocks with some work. Some firsthand experiences would be great.
Chris <>
Lawrence, KS, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 06:40:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
To Pat and all: Re. Sako and Lapua brass.
Sako and Lapua brass is NOT the same, at least not the batches that I have. Sako brass is made at the arms factory in Riihimäki, Lapua
brass is made at the Lapua cartridge company in Lapua. I have visited both factories and seen the production. However, this is quite a few years ago, and things might have changed. Perhaps Heikki could fill us in on this? Sako brass has (used to have?) a capacity close to Federal, Lapua brass is heavy and has less capacity than Sako. Check it out before you do any reloading. Both brass are excellent - just look at what all the benchrest shooters are using!
Vihtavuori powders are also excellent, I have used a lot of N135, N140, and N160.

Hans <>
B.C., Canada - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 08:55:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jim; I think you have a valid question there. Until I felt the heat of the situation I had no idea how I would react. I think nobody does. "The best feeling in the world is being shot at and missed. "(Col. Jeff Cooper I believe or was that Charles Askins who said that?) But how you may react is different. Training plays an important part in Fire Fighting or Gun Fighting but in the end ... If your scared shitless and freeze up on one you probably would on the other. Gun fights are scary but Fire is even worse... Fire you can feel a long time before it gets really bad. Neither is a piece of cake. But if you handle any kind of emergency well it wouldn't hurt to think that you would handle another the same. Of course there are those who can handle the stress but just stop thinking. I once knew a Fire Boss that was like that. He was cool as a cat but he couldn't think what to do. Deadly in either case.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 09:36:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hi everyone, I recently purchased an unissued M-44 Romanian Mosin Nagant. I have really been pleased with this little cheapy's performance but I dont enjoy shooting the surplus ammo for it for several reasons, like, the fact that it is corrosive, most of it does not have the bullet weight marked on the box, and alot of it is loaded in steel cases. I just bought some loading dies for it andifferent types of bullets that I could find to match the .310 dia. As I began to search for the unprimed brass that I needed I discovered that norma is the only company that produces 7.62X54 brass and they want like 80 bucks per 100 cases. After a little looking around and numerous phone calls I found a company that offers 7.62X53 brass for about half the price of the norma stuff. I have heard that this will work in the Nagants. But has anyone tried this? Is it safe? Will it still be accurate? Thanks for you help guys, Iam new to precision rifle shooting and could use the info. :-)
Bill Gibbs <>
Montevallo, Al, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 11:31:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

In short, one gets experience from on the job training.
Training is a lot like a tool chest. You can go out and buy a lot of tools and have a great workshop but if you never build (or destroy) anything the money you spent on the tools is wasted. By the same token you may have impressive physical and mental potential but if you have low quality tools to work with you cannot do your assigned tasks effectively. So tools, training and physical/mental prowess are just one half of the equation. The other half is spending time in the “workshop” doing the task that needs to be done. A basic understanding of some simple tools is necessary to begin effectively gaining experience. As the numbers of experiences grow more complex tools can be utilized to better solve more complex problems. So there needs to be a balanced relationship between personal experience, tools, skill and training.
My answer to your question is intentionally vague because I wanted you to be able to identify with some universal truths.

I tend to make fun of some things because it seems they were thought up just to sell gun magazines.

Michael <>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 11:46:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

I posted a question that was apparently 'lost' when part of the roster went down. So I will ask it again and see who can respond.

Does anyone know of any branch of military, manufactuor or anyone period that has, is or is considering developing sabot-type rounds for use as sniper ammunition or in sniper applications.

I am doing some research into this and have been able to locate no information so far and so I'm asking you all for ANY information or input that you can provide.

BTW, the M903 SLAP (Saboted Light Armor Penetrator) round or M962 SLAP-T is not what I am looking for. They had tested versions in 7.62mm and .50 cal but settled on the 50 due and axed the 7.62 due, supposedly, to catastrophic barrel failures due to in-bore break-up of the sabot and the penetrator puncturing the side of the barrel. (whoops!)

I know that someone will comment, "Yea, they tried that already with the ACR and its flechettes and they have poor accuracy and poor terminal ballistics."

I'm aware of the previous tests but belive that by properly incorporating CMC's or MMC's (Ceramic Matrix Composites, Metal Matrix Composites) into the front portion of a (high density metal) sabot, the terminal ballistics would be improved without spoiling the external ballistics and accuracy of the round.

I think that range, accuracy, and terminal ballistics *could* potentially be dramatically improved in a well engineered and constructed sabot projectile versus the conventional bullet shape we have now.

If anyone could comment on this via Duty Roster or email I would appreciate it. - Thanks!
{Sorry if this sounds like a college paper, I'm just finishing up finals week for the semester.}
Colin <>
omaha, Ne, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 12:57:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello all, first time here so please forgive me, my new rifle should be here anytime now, ordered a ruger police package. merry christmas thanks mom and dad... Quick question anyone here have experience with the ruger police? i actually opted for the ruger instead of the remington 700... how big of a mistake did i make??Any idea on the availability of stock for the ruger?

Shakes <>
NH, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 13:04:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Two links of interest,

One is a "Sniper Finder"

~Uh oh.....
Colin <>
omaha, ne, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 13:14:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Quick question to all: saw some of those nifty Hornady polymer tipped bullets. Anyone try any of these yet? How do they stack up to Sierras? Also found a source for Bergers, at $10 / 1000 more than Sierras. Worth it?

Shakes: Welcome. And UUUGGHHH. I'm sure more is to come. I DID say Welcome. Everyone knows that you top a good Ruu with a tasco, right? :-) (See 'Lito, I -CAN- joke!)

Torsten: thermite makes a great fire starter. Melts through an engine block in less than 5 seconds, about the size of half cup of coffee. Show 'em that and watch 'em wet their pants.
Bravo <>
Cedar City , Utah, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 14:25:15 (ZULU) (your host address:


"There is nothing so exhilerating as being shot at and missed"

Winston Churchill
CDC <>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 15:15:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Need some advice from experienced long range shooters...

I want a .300 Win mag to use on everything from Prairie dogs to Antelope to Elk and 1000m targets. I'm posting here because you guys know what it takes to make consistent hits in the field at unknown ranges.

I'm Considering a new Remington PSS/DM for $690 or a new Winchester Laredo (w/BOSS?) for $550.

The local gunsmith is recommending the PSS because he
USAF E6 <>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 04:16:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Need some advice from experienced long range shooters...

I want a .300 Win mag to use on everything from Prairie dogs to Antelope to Elk and 1000m targets. I'm posting here because you guys know what it takes to make consistent hits in the field at unknown ranges.

I'm Considering a new Remington PSS/DM for $690 or a new Winchester Laredo (BOSS?) for $550.

The local gunsmith is recommending the PSS because he "can do more with the 700 action".

A friend told me that the Winchester is a better rifle and a better deal if I'm not going to do any modifications. Plus he wants me to get the BOSS so I'll have more "options" in bullet weights.

Not sure if a stock PSS or Laredo will give me the accuracy for 1000m shooting. I'm told they'll shoot 1 moa, but I find it hard to believe that a factory rifle is capable of 10 inch groups at 1000 yards.

All comments appreciated.

USAF E6 <>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 04:20:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Time on the roster: All, hopefully we have cured the goofy dates that have been appearing on the roster. Pardon those posts that seem to have dates that are out of order. I'm sure this drove Marius to drinking by now.

Ken :)

ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 04:21:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill Gibbs, Re: Russian Brass
The 7.62x53R is the same as the 7.62x54R. I dont know why the different numbers. They are interchangeable. I have used both. I bought some of mine from Old Western Scrounger, (you can find a link to this place in the links section of the main page.) It is also expensive. They stuff they sell is made by Lapua, and I prefer it to the Norma brass. There is some weight difference between the two cases so sick with one or the other.

To Colin, some cut and paste stuff for you to ponder.

The Swedish Armed Forces have adopted a sabot round for their snipers.
It is a 4.81mm tungsten carbide round fired in a sabot case. This round exits the barrel at over 4400 fps. There is a degradation of accuracy (About 33%) but the time of flight to 1000m is almost half of the standard 7.62x51mm. This was a tradeoff that the Swedish Armed Forces viewed as acceptable.
Courtesy of Mels Sniper page.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 05:05:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Are you guys shooting open sights or scoped? From my High power experience, you can/will get a target to "wash out" on the side where the bright sunlight comes from. This will cause the Zero to seem to shift, You can also get this effect for elevation. Ain't nice weather grand? I would rather shoot in poorer weather, I find that it's easier for me to adjust for the wind, rain, etc. than sun & shadows. Optics should make it a moot point though.
stev <>
Getting colder here in, South West Pa, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 05:32:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone have a good .308 load with varget for the 168 grain A-MAX or other 168 grainer? I have had very good luck with this bullet in my sendero 300 mag and want to try it in my dads new .308.

Took two deer with this bullet. bullet performance was deadly. both exit wounds were close to 1.5 inch in diameter. the tissue inbetween was mush.

recon <>
Ks, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 06:10:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a unique perspective on your Experience question as I am a full time firefighter/registered trauma nurse. I have also been shot at when i worked in Oklahoma in law enforcement. The main difference I can see is timing. Things can go wrong on a fire/EMS scene and catch you by suprise but you usually are somewhat prepared for it as something is already going on.

When I was shot at there was no build up to the moment. One moment status quo the next rounds are incoming.

The later will deffinitly get the pucker factor going.
However training and personality traits play an important role in how a person will react to a crisis. I too have worked with very sharp fire/ems people who were all but worthless when the shit hit the fan.
Some on the other hand can keep cool and function well. One man i know does some of his best work under great pressure.

Col. Cooper thinks staying in the proper frame of mind to detect problems before they suprise you is an advantage. I have to agree.
recon <>
Ks, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 06:32:22 (ZULU) (your host address:


What about .264 WinMag ? It should be a quite good fast 6.5 calibre. Of course 6.5-285 might be better, but in 264 you can more easily form needed brass from 300 WinMag which is plenty available. 6.5-284 can not be EASILY formed from any other brass as you have to turn the rim down in a lathe. How do these two calibres compare to each other accuracy and powerwise ? Comments ?

Sako & Lapua Brass.

It is as Hans already said: Sako produces its own high quality brass, but that IS NOT the same what Lapua produces. In this part of the world, and among the bench rest crowd Lapua brass is considered to be the best available. In Finland Lapua is the choice of BR people too, but Sako is considered to be on the same quality level. Norma should be qualitywise quite close, but maybe not up to par in the same calibres.

Norma brass is considered to be in the Federal Gold Medal class, but below Lapua Match Grade. BTW Norma produces several specialty calibres (Weatherby Magnums, 6.5-284 WinMag, various big bore calibres and so on), which are not produced by Lapua or Sako, or even Federal for that matter.-> In specialty calibres like 338-378 Weatherby Norma is the way to go.

Qualitywise I put the companies to this order:
1. Lapua
2. Sako
3. Norma
(those above are actually almost equally good)
4. Federal Gold Metal Match Brass

One should also consider that usually companies producing only one type of product, is usually better in that area than companies that produce several different product categories. In that light Lapua, Norma and Federal as ammo-only-companies stand out.

If I would try to load a 308 target load here in Finland I would choose components as follows: Lapua brass, Sierra 175 MK´s, CCI primers and Vihtavuori powders. In the USA I might try Varget too, but it is unavailable here. I would of course try Lapuas Scenars in 167 grains and Lapuas Lock-Bases in 170 grains. BTW Sako uses nowadays in their 300 WinMag and 308 Win target loads Sierra 168 MK´s only.

In 338 Lapua Magnum I will use Lapua brass, Lapua bullets (250 grain Scenar HPBT), Vihtavuori N170 powder and CCI 215 primers.

Boxer-primed 7.62X53R/7.62X54R brass: Lapua produces a very high quality boxer primed brass for this Mosin-Nagant calibre. If you want the best possible components, order these through the importer if they do not stock this brass. One can question wheather this matters much in a mass-produced military rifle, so once-shot (in your own rifle) brass from Norma is probably as good as you reasonably might need.

Best regards,

Heikki Juhola <>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 09:00:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

I guess I stand corrected!! I was told that the Sako and Lapua were the same. I agree both are real top quality brass and to me worth the extra cost.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 14:13:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jim Mitchell,

In "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights", Officer Jim Cirillo describes in detail the qualities he looked for in a gunfighter under the conditions in which he operated. Some of those qualities are surprising.

General James Gavin, who commanded the 82nd Airbourne through-out the second world war had a very simple criterion. He said that, if someone was willing to parachute, they would fight. If they were unwilling to parachute, they would not fight. That sounds crazy, but Jumpin’ Jim would know.

The U.S. Navy has put a considerable amount of resources into predicting who has the tendency to process information rapidly in very high-risk, very high-speed environments. In "The Right Stuff", Tom Wolfe describes those efforts and the results. Several years ago, Playboy published an article (I only bought it for the articles) called "The Psyche and The Starting Grid." In the article, the author extended the Navy "Right Stuff" thesis to race drivers. If it can be found, it is worth reading. (And say ‘Hello’ to Miss May for me.)

Ayoob says that hunters and competitive shooters are effective in combat due to their being accustomed to shooting and hitting while under stress.

Ltc. Cooper ideas have been mentioned. He says that no student who has attended his famous "Wednesday Afternoon Lecture" has ever failed when, in his words, "the balloon has gone up". I believe that Gunsite sells a video tape of the lecture. One of his many ideas is that the properly trained shooter is able to pay full attention to the technical problem at hand, thus fear is crowded out. He agrees that hunters are effective, and says that mountaineers and race-drivers are also effective. The following link contains his somewhat random thoughts on this, and every other subject that occupies an interesting and amusing man. JeffCooper

The above referenced materials discuss ‘hot-combat’. That is a different subject than the sniper’s mind-set.

CDC <>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 16:17:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know how much of a pain in the ass it would be to put a 700 ADL into one of the H-S Precision M-24 or Vertical Grip Tac stocks? I assume I would just need to buy the BDL trigger guard and magazine parts, from Brownells. Is there more to it that that?

I have been looking for a used BDL to buy for the action, but the used prices for a BDL are more than the new prices for an ADL at Wal-Mart.

Tom Aiken <>
Fremont, CA, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 17:35:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC wrote - "no student who has attended his famous "Wednesday Afternoon Lecture" has ever failed when, in his words, "the balloon has gone up"

I find it difficult to believe that an effective fighter can be manufactured in one day. I have not been to this lecture.

reacting calmly and with focus during life threatening situations is one thing, but putting a bullet on it's mark is another. In trying times, I am perfectly capable of calmly missing my target 

Alas, it's back to the range this weekend, to practice, practice, practise

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 19:11:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys I am getting in on this when the poop hits the fan: Anyone that has been there will tell you that training tends to make you more likely to survive an life or death event, but you do not know who you can count on until the poop is everywhere. I have seen some of the best trained guys become useless when you needed them and some wimpy types step up to the plate and hit a dinger. In PD work we sometimes wait and see how a new officer handles himself/herself in a fight before we let them in the real club. The military is very similar. People are funny creatures you dont know how they will act until put to the test.

Col. Cooper ran an excellent school, but no one day lecture will ever make a fighter out of you. Statistics will tell you that he has trained a fairly small number of students and the ones he has trained are motivated types and less likely to freeze when called upon. they showed the drive to go to the class. Probably his record is more a tribute to his students than his lecture.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 21:21:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys I am getting in on this when the poop hits the fan: Anyone that has been there will tell you that training tends to make you more likely to survive an life or death event, but you do not know who you can count on until the poop is everywhere. I have seen some of the best trained guys become useless when you needed them and some wimpy types step up to the plate and hit a dinger. In PD work we sometimes wait and see how a new officer handles himself/herself in a fight before we let them in the real club. The military is very similar. People are funny creatures you dont know how they will act until put to the test.

Col. Cooper ran an excellent school, but no one day lecture will ever make a fighter out of you. Statistics will tell you that he has trained a fairly small number of students and the ones he has trained are motivated types and less likely to freeze when called upon. they showed the drive to go to the class. Probably his record is more a tribute to his students than his lecture.

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 21:21:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Undude: Excuse me if it sounded as if I were saying that sitting in any classroom would make a 'Conan The Barbarian' out of the local 'Casper Milquetoast'. The people sitting in that class-room are not a random sample of the population so I'm implying no causal effect at all. A city's rate of ice-cream comsumption can be correlated, by time and by location, with that city's rate of drowning. Does ice-cream eating cause drowning? Does drowning cause ice-cream eating? Or do variables lurk?

I'll take door number three, Monty.

I have no intention of getting in an argument with anyone here. My intention is to share some resources that may be of interest.

And I will certainly agree with you that you can't tell by lookin'.

CDC <>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 22:05:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Did anyone else notice that someone with the nickname "Shakes" is asking about long range rifle shooting???? Certainly no offense intended Shakes, but it did seem ironic... Welcome to the Roster.

David Kiser <>
NC, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 22:53:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

David Kiser,
ha ha very good i was wondering what took so long, shakes is a joke with my friends when i was younger i had an anxiety disorder and was known to shake at strange times none of them ever being stressful. I still shake from time to time but never when the presure is on in a LE situation, but thanks for noticing me.

shakes <>
NH, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 23:56:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

An interviewer once asked Major General Sid Shachnow (now retired)(at the time the CG of the United States Army Special Forces Command or the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School) what tool he would want to help determine if a guy had the proper stuff to become a Special Forces Soldier. Sid looked him in the eye and (paraphrasing) said "Something like a meat thermometer. If I could stick it in his ass and read 'This guy will make a good SF Soldier', it would save the school the effort of training or passing a dud to the force."

Failing that, intense, repetitive, realistic training, both as an individual and as a team member is the key to success.
Dave Liwanag <>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 02:59:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Shakes: Welcome aboard. If you're new to Sniper Country I urge you to spend some time looking through the archived material in the "Hot Tips..." and "Articles and Commentary" sections, among others. There you will find info on everything from breaking in your new rifle to cleaning and fine tuning it. There is a wealth of information on this site about riflery in general, and long range precision shooting in particular. And the Rosterfarians will be glad to help answer your questions.

To all: I just bought NRA memberships for two more family members and extended my own. I would sure like to see 4,000,000 members by election time next November.

Gooch said, "Shotguns, yawn!". Sure got a way with words, ain't he?

PaulS <>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 03:42:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey CDC, no fight here just stating an opinion. Not going for head shot on you just giving what I thought was a reason for Coopers outstanding record. I also have a 100% good student ration, but only three of the one I have trained have killed anyone. In contrast one of the best PPC shooters I have ever known sprayed and prayed and only hit a Chevy. LOL

MikeM <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 04:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

CDC; thanks for the research, I think Cooper was quoting Churchill when I heard that for the first time.
I do think that a lecture can sure change a feller's mind about what to do in a gunfight but Mike's right about the time it takes to gain the confidence you need to handle the balloon going up.
I've seen guys who couldn't handle the stress of even a mock up gunfight though. Some were good longrange rifle shooters and even good trap shooters but when facing another opponent that they thought was fast they fell all apart. It's all in the mind (I belive Jeff Cooper says something to that affect in the term "mindset".)

B.Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 05:58:32 (ZULU) (your host address:


Before the coup that dethroned him, I seem to remember Cooper claiming a score of two-hundred-and-twenty-something to, I think, three. Please understand that it is no insult to anyone that I am elaborately suspicious of numbers that I don't collect. Reread that statement five times before you flame me. The story I got is that one 499 student got Bonnie-and-Clyded in Guatamala or something. A bunch of guys with squirt-guns (sorry Sarge) rose up from behind a hedge. They caught him at the same stop sign that he stopped every day. Should have paid attention in class. Another guy, (a 250) got into it good somewhere in Africa. When they got him it was four or five to one. Can't remember the last incident.

So, to repeat, I do not trust this data. I would like it updated and cleansed before making any inferrences from it. And the people who A: Attend Ltc Cooper's classes AND B: get in gunfights are not a random sample of the population. So I am positively not claiming that any mama's boy who shows up to class with the centerfold from this month's "American Handgunner" is going to leave as Wild Bill Hickcock's daddy.

And last, the reason for the post that got me up to my eye balls in this muck, is to refer those interested to materials they may find of use. I didn't write those materials. I have not verified those materials. I am not defending those materials. I wish I had never heard of those materials.

Good show with the three you trained!!

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 05:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

First time in sniper country,great stuff. But nothing about left-handed rifles. Im looking for a left hand rig for rec. shooting. Dream of mirror-image PSS,but the best I see cataloged is Rem 700 VLS-LH in .308 and my FFL can not find one. Guess I will keep calling Remingtons 1-800 and being a pest. They might get tired of me and stop producing rifles for Wal-Mart long enough to make my 700VS-LH .308. Any comments out there for a guy who sights out the other eye?
JimB <@aol.comm>
USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 10:57:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am getting ready to upgrade from my savage tactical 10 .308 short action to a mid level riffle. My questions are two fold. First should I go with .223, .308 or 300 win mag and second what is a good mid level weapon system to build on. Money is a issue so I must not be in the PSG1 range of weapons. I do have access to law enforcement channels of wapons but my boss looks down on buying for personal use. A PSS is on my list right now as is a Stoner 25. I would like to get a few recommendations from the pro's. I understand that some of the special ops and Seal teams have switched to 300 win mags as primary caliber of choice. I am a grad of the Army A4 school and a desent shooter. I am also on a police shooting team. But as anyone could imagin I am limited to police input that limits me to PSS technology. I do at times take the long shots up to 1000 meters at Quanico VA but not very often. I do reload so I can get the dies for any of the rounds. Cost of shots are relatively the same. Most shots taken are under 400 meters ( Grounghogs from a bench). I have considered .223 but have always been extreme in everything so wanted to get input before buying. Thanks in advance and sorry for the spelling. (public schools...)
Randy Runkles <>
Harpers Ferry, WV, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 13:13:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
MikeM, Bolt, peteR, Gooch(DA man), Scott, Al_O. and all...

Buk is back after a long break from SC.
I'm back in Arkansas from Louisiana...dam glad too.
I missed the rantings (read: learning from the enknowledged)

just wanted to drop in and say "Howdy"

Buk out
Buk <>
BackInTheWoods, Arkansas, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 13:32:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone have any experience with the McMillian M3A stock? I was debating getting one for my M1A as I need a raised cheek piece for proper sight alignment. Thanks

Jeff Wilson <>
Shilo, MB, Canada - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 14:38:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff, I have a McMillian M3A stock with the adjustable cheekpiece that I McMillian install and I like it very much. I have a Brookfield mount and Leupold MK4 M1 10x on it and it shoot greats. I say go for it you will be very pleased.
Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 15:16:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
I never knew a site like you'res excisted. I look forward to getting
some pointers and picking up some merchandise
Harold E. Valyou <>
Franklin, NewHampshire, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 18:00:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
Lest a wrong impression was left: The consensus is that Cooper's training was excellent, but there are others who are probably as good. About half the guys I have talked to who trained at old Gunsite and at Thunder Ranch say Thunder is better. Front Sight is similar. And, I haven't "been to the mountain", but I strongly suspect that Storm Mountain is as good as it gets. Just a suspicion. There are more.

Anyone out there who thinks they'll just pick this up on their own, forget it. Smart people have worked hard for a long time to develop their training techniques. Go to one of the biggies, train a year, then go back. Repeat process a few times. Amaze your friends.

CDC <>
USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 18:58:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

New HK Weapon,

Anyone have any info on a HK weapon that appear's on the cover of a German Book by Manfred Kersten/ Walter Schmid,that is advertised in the Dec issue of Visier.
It appear's to be a new machine pistol made of plastic along the line's of the G-36/UMP etc,also appear's to be in a small calibre,maybe 5.7x28.
Could be the ideal sniper sidearm.

Chris <>
New Zealand - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 20:40:17 (ZULU) (your host address: