Sniper Country Duty Roster

Joe, You'll get no arguement from me on your last post regarding responsibility.

This forum doesn't support sig lines, else I'd have my standard one up.....I try to use it in all my religion posts. I later ask...."who's doing the saddling?"

"No man was ever endowed with a right without being at the same time saddled with a responsibility."

Gerald W. Johnson

medicjim
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 00:12:48 (ZULU)

On the school thing...

I'm not bitchin cuz it was my Rat... I have been worried about this stuff since before he was a glint in my eye.

I remember 25 years ago, when a group of Christian kids were punished in school for praying at lunchtime in the school cafeteria. Two weeks out for violating separation of church and state (???).

I spoke out that I saw an anti-religious crusade was coming (it WAS 25 years ago), and people laughed at me... said I was paranoid (and you know what THAT means).

Back some years ago, I knew that the "zero tolerance" movement was not about violence, it was about cultural control. Some kidlet PROUDLY brought in a picture of his brother who was in "Desert Storm" ('91) in uniform, with all his buds around a tank. No dead Iranians, no blood, no nuttin... just the same kind of picture that solders all over the world (from ALL countries) have been sending back to their family's since forever.

The kidlet was suspended for a month for threatening the other kids with a picture of a violent "war thing"!

I recently read that Abraham Lincoln said (paraphrased), "The attitudes you see in the schools today, are the attitudes you will see in congress in the future".

I don't know what sane thinking parents are gonna do with their rats... when I get the Rat, I'll go down to the school with him, and tell the principal about our life with firearms, and ask that Jase and I have a written policy on what he can say and what he can't.

It sucks...

... and where are the neutral or right thinking colleges??? None of them around here can be trusted on ideological basis... en-ga-neering, yes... history, political science, social studies, world events, etc... hell NO!!

:(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 00:19:02 (ZULU)

JLU,

Buddy of mine & I run a youth rifle program at our range. We get kids of all ages & abilities. For a young one the Crickets are a great option. For somewhat older kids there are some good Romanian Military training rifles on the surplus market, and finally CMP offers good rifles for the advanced kids. The Cricket can be had at Walmart for not much $$.

For teaching materials, both the NRA and CMP have some good stuff. I've got serious issues with the NRA's political non-action, but the teaching materials are pretty good, especially for the kids. Shoot me an e-mail if you want more detail.

Lito, "Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" was a great read, passed it on to several. Beer's on me whenever we meet.

Bill

SSG Mac
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 02:04:51 (ZULU)

Pablo: "...even the average gunsmith cannot install a NEW Winchester..."

Around here the average smith can't find his ass with both hands. They are worse than useless.

CDC'
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 02:36:39 (ZULU)

Joe U,

Its a nice area,Folks retired and moved back to Dads hometown of Blair, Holmen has a decent 250yrd range,and silhouettes,membership is $50/calender year and its about a 20-25 min drive from the folks.

Plus the Holmen Meat Locker has decent meat,Aint shot the range... yet.But will sometime soon.Dads been buggin me about movin up since they bought thier place...and the huntin is good too.Turkey,Deer,Yotes enough to keep this fool happy.

My time in this City(Cudahy)is comin to a close soon....We are gonna hang around till her boy turns 18 in a couple years,so the biological contributor wont be whinin to his lawyer on where kid care dollars are goin.Headin up there Friday for the Deer season and stayin the whole 9 days so I might get some job/housin scoutin in as well.Depends on how many deer I drop.Its Earn a Buck,so we will see.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 03:04:04 (ZULU)

I've been thinking for a while now, that the NRA or someone should start a college. It'd be nice to find a school where you can talk about God or guns, and be recognised as a freak when you are a freak. Freedom of speech should work both ways.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 03:41:08 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Saw your post about schools and the stupid BS that passes for policy these days.

My kids went to a public high school here that has a real nice indoor rifle range. The USMC sponsors it along with local business, and the school board. The rifle team pays them back with trophy after trophy from regional and national events. My kid worried my wife when he announced that he had enrolled in the USMCJROTC program at school. His grades improved greatly and he graduated with about a 3.6 GPA if I recall. He also shot NRA High Power Rifle with me for several years. One hell of a rifle shooter. He plans to go to medical school next year. My daughter is pretty good too, but she's more of a pistol shooter.

What kind of monkey-brained SOS suspends a good kid for bringing a non-gory war photo to class?

BillB

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 04:34:17 (ZULU)

My son and I are in the arms room tonight. Doing those evil gun type activities like cleaning and placing scopes on odd-ass firearms.

So he tells me a story about a search and seizure incident. Back in tax-a-two-shits, he was walking down the hall programming a girl's number into his cell (I asked about whose number:)) A hall nazi takes said phone. He gets called to the office during that next class and questioned by the principal: "Do you know why your here?" (to get my property back.) "No, we have the police enroute." (Why?) "Because we looked at your pictures in memory, and found YOU holding ASSAULT WEAPONS!" (So?) "Well, we have a zero tolerance for this sort of thing..." (Excuse me? But zero tolerance for going to work with my father at a US military installation and participating in an openhouse show and tell?) "Well, uh..." (those shots are out of state, six months old, with my father, who happens to be a green beret serving in Afghanistan or someplace right now). The local cops show up, and everyone has sympathy for the little boy whose poor dumb father is stuck in war.

I was proud that he handled it on his own. First I heard of it was not 30 minutes ago! Heheh---he did stretch the truth. Those shots were in our backyard. ARs and AKs---just because kids dig them. Remember my post a while back about how he handled the .45 his first time with one? The photos were from that range session!

My beef is, WTF does the school think about the fourth ammendment? Apparently they never heard of that one. Well, good that it ended there. I was an angry cuss when I got home, and all that defending of the constitution woulda made me touchy on this subject:)).

I am not looking forward to tomorrow at all. I have a 12 bore to check zero, two 300WMs, an '06, a brand-assed-new HOWA M1500 greenie Hogue stocked-Loopie wearin' walking riffle in 308 (yeah, i got it), two 260s, a 7mm Mag, and my .44 mag handygun. Heheh. I bet I learn how to flinch along the way. The shoulder is better, but not that much better!

Who am I kidding? I did not buy a bullet--this will be a hoot.

Joe M
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 04:37:35 (ZULU)

"The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots". I hope I'm still young enough to play when it comes around.

Looks like I might get my wish and be able to retire from the Police Dept. and go schlep around in the sandbox for a while. In all honesty, I've been bored shitless for the last 15 years, and it's time to do what I want for a while. I'm keeping every digit I can still flex that it's not just a pipe dream.....And I'll finally be able to afford a rifle I have to call some famous guy and pay for far in advance.....Woo Hoo!

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 05:34:53 (ZULU)

Gents,

May I jump in for a sec?

I see big green has a new AR platform riffle they need to sell me. Designed in conjunction with the market leader in AR platforms. They failed to mention who that "market leader" is. Any clue? Boon or bust for us hopeless M1A owners?

Also noticed the SCOTUS delayed hearing the case til 11/20something? Big shocker, huh?

Headed SW to West-by-God Sat. Can`t wait to hunt under the windmills and see if it`s like sitting under a giant hair dryer. Could this be the last year? Screw Algore.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 06:27:55 (ZULU)

Joe,

Those school Nazis piss me off to no end. They teach about individual rights to free speech, freedom of expression, non-violent protest, and all that other bullshit, and then turn around and search your kid's phone just for shits and giggles! What's next? Are they gonna search his underwear next time they think he's getting a boner, and call him a sex offender?

It's pretty fucked up that they protect the rights of every freak and pervert on earth, but seem to go into witchhunt mode whenever they see an everyday american.

'Lito,

Got the charges dismissed. REALLY pissed off the City Attorney. I kinda dig beating them at their own game. Judge even gave me a little smile. Now, they wanna have a hearing about whether or not my dog is vicious, even though 1/2 of the cause for the complaint is from about a year ago. Being right might cost me, at this point.

She looked like she'd just swallowed a frog when I asked to make a motion to dismiss, and saw my copy of the code in my hand, hehe! Next thing I know, she's out in the hallway, whispering, and I heard her say, "We're gonna get him on anything we can!". I'm gonna look, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing I can do about her harassing me like this. The code enforcement officer even seemed pissed at him. HE told me it was bullshit.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 09:13:46 (ZULU)

Joe M...

>"My beef is, WTF does the school think about the fourth amendment?"<

Joe... don't confuse the issues with things like the Constitution, and the Rights of the people!!

Steve Racer...

The Remington ARs are made by Bushpuppy... they're both owned by the same holding company now, and apparently, unlike Remingtons owners in the past, THIS company likes guns and gun people (The CEO is a gun nut!!)

Travis...

Good on the doggie thing.

And "but seem to go into witch hunt mode whenever they see an everyday American."

Everyday Americans are getting to be an endangered species. I feel more and more like a minority every day :(((

I got a nice e-mail from a long time lurker. (You guys would be AMAZED at how many lurkers we have - I mean it's in the the tens of tens of thousands every month).

This lurker is a student in the state of Washington. I'll call him David (cuz that's his name ;).

David is a Senior, and an out door nut - Fishes the rivers most weekends, and has a bunch of knives and a biggassed 'chetty.

A few years ago, the principal got wind of this bunch of ka-niffs, and called David to the office.

When David explained that it was fishing and bushwhackin stuff, the principal took them away "for safe storage" and David can have them any time he wants.

David goes to a private (boarding) school.

Cool on you, David, and stay lurking as long as you want.

It's a sad state of affairs when the only time you can get your rights is when you can afford to pay for them... and you can't have them in a state owned and run school.

And "they" keep asking "us", why we don't trust the goberment to "administer" out gun rights with permit systems.

Gimme un friggin breako.

I see it coming sometime in the future, cuz this shit is getting old.

David... I'll toast to you on my next Mo'gan Tahnie.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 09:57:19 (ZULU)

I just read a post on another site about a guy that gets 18" groups at ONE MILE (1760 yds)... and says he shoots clay pigeons at that range.

There seems to be no limit to mans imagination, and I am always amazed at the groups that can be shot with a keyboard!

;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 10:26:16 (ZULU)

'Lito,

The way I figure, a clay pigeon a mile away from me is no threat, so I just leave 'em alone.

I don't suppose you sent him to David Tubb's website, didja? Some people just don't have sense enough to be embarrassed at their own bullshit.

BTW, What do you guys think of Mitt Romney?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 10:41:34 (ZULU)

Travis...

So far, I think a Romney/Huckaby ticket would beat everything they can come up with... and with it, Huckaby would get the national attention (and grooming) to take the next 8 years, so we would have 16 years to straighten out the mess we have now. I like Huckaby best, but he's not ready for prime time on his own yet.

Romney has been very careful not to alienate any of the other candidates by ugly name calling, so he can choose one of them to run with him.

Giuliani has a LOT of bad baggage from NYC that will come out if he gets the nomination and has to run "mano a fe-mano". Giuliani is an anti-gun asshole in sheep's clothing.

A Clinton/Obama ticket would be strong with the lefties, but would drive many of the middle of the road and independent voters over to our side. Also, she has shit on Obama pretty hard, and I don't think he would second fiddle to her now...

... She is truly scary and is probably responsible for so many gay men in the democratic party (they were straight until they net her...)

I don't know who Clinton is going to come up with... she has alienated all of her running mates, so she has to come up with a new face, and I can't think of ONE political that would want to be her "second fiddle", unless he was some God awful whimp-assed-pussy, and the country would not go for that combination.

I think she "looks" strong now, but there are a LOT of things against her.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 11:52:25 (ZULU)

LOL. Click. Set your coffee down.

Travis Morgan
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 12:09:06 (ZULU)

Travis, whatever you linked to, it's been flagged and requires a login.

Lito, with 3M+ visitors to this site, i had figured the number to be in the tens of thousands, and you verified that. Unless some of the regulars visit several hundred times each day, and don't post.

I've seen a few Colt SP-1 carbines for sale, recently. They look like AR-15 A2 in flavor. What is it about them that people really like? I'm in the market for a carbine (blame Bravo, it's ALLLLL his fawt). :8--)

Duman
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 14:07:18 (ZULU)

Duman: Take a look at the S&W M&P carbines. Brace yourself for some sticker shock. The prices have gotten a little crazy since Ms Pelosi and Company took over.

CDC'
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 14:56:44 (ZULU)

Duman...

>"I've seen a few Colt SP-1 carbines for sale, recently. They look like AR-15 A2 in flavor. What is it about them that people really like? I'm in the market for a carbine (blame Bravo, it's ALLLLL his fawt). :8--)"<

It IS alllll his fawt!

I don't know what it is - I actually bought it in '92 when they were about to pass an "assault gun ban" here in "Kalifornia East"... in fact, my state took the Kalifornia law, including all of the typos and grammatical errors, and passed it intact.

So I ran down to the local Assault-riffle-Cafeteria and bought a Galil A.R.M. in 308, and the Colts SP-1, cuz it was "cute" (and I already had a few AR H-Bars).

I didn't have much appreciation for it, and was even thinking of putting a heaver barrel on it some day... until I took it to a Jon Farnam course in Urban Combat, and the little puppy showed it's true colors. It swept the match.

What I have come to love about it that it is light, fast, chrome lined barrel (neva wear out), they point and shoot like a pistol and hit like a rifle. You can shoot it with one hand, or take people sized targets out at 400 mtrs. If life got shitty in the streets, and I was on foot, it is the only long firearm I would want.

I wouldn't change a thing on it now.

A friend of mine has a case for a tennis racket and it has a pocket for tennis balls attached to it. A real "Yuppie" accessory ;)

He converted it into a foam lined gun case for an SP-1, and the pocket is filled with magazines. Talk about a incognito go kit for a business man ;))))

How much are they asking for the ones that you saw???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 15:01:58 (ZULU)

It's not "new" news... but LRBT (Lost River Ballistic Technologies) went Tits Up a little while ago - they were the ones that made the loooong bronze bullet for the 408 Chey-Tac, which without those bullets, the 408 CT is useless. The company was a mess for a long time, and got lost along the way, and lost sight of the goal. A major player, Warren Jensen, claimed to be an West Point Graduate in Ordnance Engineering, and it turned out that his degree was in Public Relations... (and Martha says, "That's a bad thing").

Also... ol' D**n M******s is out of the shooting business - he's selling a lot of his stuff, his website is down, and apparently he's going back to school to work in the med field as a nurse and then a physicians asst.

I truly wish him the best of luck - he was (is) a very talented shooter that, along the way, also lost sight of some important things in life.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 16:13:42 (ZULU)

CDC', thanks for the pointer, I'll take a look.

Lito-san, I saw a few between $1500 and $2K, but they looked a little rough around the edges. It's hard to tell from a photo.

I had a chance to handle a SIG-556 last weekend. It's light and maneuverable, but I wasn't impressed with fit/finish (it looked a bit cheesy). That's just visual, I'm sure it functions very well.

I wonder if Bravo would spot me the dough for the carbine .... :8-o

Duman
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 16:56:14 (ZULU)

I thought I just felt an alignment of rights and wrongs...a chill of come-upance crossed thru this room....naw; it's just the draft in this old house! heheh. What goes around comes around--and it usually passes over the top and nails ya with full downward force!

Lost rivers, lost bullets, lost 1/2 mile shots at will. Hey, can I use this as my newest excuse for flubbing shots? I mean, it could go like this:

"I could have made that shot a million times over in a hurricane if only I still had my lost river gear..."

Okay...that is enough piling on for me! I do wish D34N well; he is still a long lost brother in arms--and, apparently, I should have met him as such (I dunno if I did).

Someday a technology so new and se radically different will emerge. It will either be the real deal, or yet another charletan. I just hope none of us gets sucked into a bad deal, or that we are open enough to see the real deal when it comes. "Cry wolf" things like this does no one--on either side--any damned good.

Pop psychology: The trick to being better than everyone you meet is to never let them know it unless they absolutely deserve to know it. Being better than everyone means you must live with this secret all to yourself!

John Kerry's last words as a presidential hopeful: "I can't believe I am losing to this idiot..." Heheh. He does a poor job at hiding his assumed superiority. Heheheheheh.

Now for something completely different:

(that reference is for you Rod...i know you are a fan|)

"An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything"

I have got to find this recently published unification theory and read it!

Okay, coffee break is over...I have to stand on my head again...

The range session is going OK, but the loopy riflemen c-thru rings (aluminum, high and stupid rings) shot loose (BLR, 300 mag). Either my torque wrench isn't calibrated anymore, seeeee-conck---or this one was defective. It stripped the cross slot bolt on the third shot. The windage went stupid on me. I think it is the torque wrench--since I did the same thing last night on my signature zees (though these have been used and re-used by me and the wife as fillers til the badgers arrive on at least 7 rifles---lotsa wear and tear--and they went right at the point of initial tension. FFFFFFFFfuuuu--uh-uh-errr, never mind. Off to the stores.

Maybe the cold-ass wind will let up while I am out and about? Please? The sting in the cheeks takes all the fun out of shooting someone else's bullets:))

OK, this is one of the rare "no dishes, no laundry" days when retirement feels right.

Joe M
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 17:16:10 (ZULU)

Duman,

You might want to take a look here,http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/,Under rifles,then Modern Tact/Military.I havent dealt with them personally,so I dont know how they are.The inventory will get the juices flowing.Several SP1's, prices are about the same range as you mentioned.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 17:28:33 (ZULU)

SP1 repro

http://www.fulton-armory.com/FAR-15-Service.htm#LegacyUppers

An AR15-A1E is very much like an SP1, without the historic cache and associated cost.

http://www.bushmaster.com/images/catalog/Parts_Accessories/Lower_Receivers/A1UR.gif

Look on the bottom, left hand side of page 64 to see the A1E windage knob configuration

http://www.bushmaster.com/electronic-documents/2005Catalogv1/Page%2064-70%20Sights%20Scopes%20&%20Mounts.pdf

medicjim
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 18:16:49 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Blair, I hunted just North/East of town back in the late 80's (Wifes Sisters farm) then they moved to Bloomer and hunted there for years until some rich guy from the state below us offered big money to lease the land. Now I go to Richland Center.

SSG Mac,

I'll shoot you a email next week when I am back in town.

Good luck to all you WIS. hunters this week.

JLU out

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 22:11:37 (ZULU)

Joe U,

E mail inbound.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 22:58:28 (ZULU)

Greeting from Aberdeen MD.

I visited the Aberdeen Proving Grounds Ordnance Museum today and got a personal tour from Jack Atwater, Museum Director. You may recognize him as Dr. William Atwater from "The History Channel" series on firearms.

The museum is a military gun lovers dream. Dr. Atwater warned us not to drool on the firearms, many of which I had heard of but never seen, including the XM-8 and a Spencer Model 1894.

Dr. Atwater is retiring on 30 November after many years of service to the US Government. He says he has a job with a cruise line in the Caribbean and that the contract has a magarita clause. He is a gracious host and his photo is in my album. If you have chance to to visit, just knock on the door.

The museum is scheduled to be moved to Ft Lee in the near future. I'll have to go back and look at the armor display that is outside the museum.

Trajan

Aberdeen Provong Ground Museum
East Bay, Kalifornya, USA !!! - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 01:23:13 (ZULU)

Constitutional rights & schools- a shocking number of admin types have no clue as to their responsibilities/students rights. Apparently, none ever watch Law & Order. The Education Establishment (retch) seems to maintain many of the same practices from the days when teachers/admin stood in loco parentis without accepting the responsibilities thereof. Evidentally, "educators" can't find time to get briefed on legal issues relevent to their job descriptions.

Had an incident with my older boy in high school-couple of them actually. The most serious, I had a talk with our attorney, former Commonwealth Attorney, about denial of due process and a laundry list of other Bill of Rights issues. He agreed with my evaluation. Did some desk pounding during the meeting with the school admin types, then wrote a very polite letter to the county school administration. The letter set out the high school administrators sins and some county school policy issues and suggested that if they felt exempt from US law, I'd be delighted to let a court instruct them on the matter.

Never got a formal reply but the lower admin types got sacked, policies got re-written and some paperwork got "lost". This also covered a couple of "zero tolerance" issues.

Maybe if I'd filed a tile 83 suit, I wouldn't have to work for a living......on the other hand, it probably still wouldn't have come to trial, so I'd still be working for a living to pay the blood sucking litigator.

WR Moore
Friday, November 16, 2007, at 02:15:30 (ZULU)

Gents,

Everyone is paying close attention to who is going to be the "second" in the presidential race. A Romney/Huckabee ticket might be good for the Republicans. For the Democrats I'm not sure. As noted, Hillary has pissed on or off just about everyone credible. So, on the long shot ticket I think it will be a Hillary/Pelosi ticket for the demo's. Now there is a scary thought.

Have decided not to sweat the politically correct school administrators. What goes around comes around and they are putting their personal agendas ahead of policy and law. W.R. Moore has the right idea, methinks. Good on ya!

Last of my lathe tooling showed up today. Am now officially ready to "make chips". I've seven actions all in need of barreling, stocking, etc. Have to decide which project gets priority and move ahead. Yes, it will probably be a .308...I'm so predictable...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 02:49:06 (ZULU)

AR10

What are you guys using for reloads in your AR10's?

I run accross a DPMS LR308T for sale here locally.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 10:17:06 (ZULU)

Click my name for a sneak peek at Remington's new AR

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 15:31:47 (ZULU)

Gents,

The new Stevens model 200 in .270 is a winner so far.

This rifle is essentially a Savage 110 (long action for .270), and very close to my old 110FP. Metal finish is not as nice, the barrel and action are nicely turned but NOT polished. The stock is the same as any other Savage rifle, flex and all, except it is grey rather than black. Barrel is what I would call a light sporter. The rifle is very light and has a nice balance with optics installed. Since this is a light duty rifle, I used weaver two piece picatinny style bases and dual cap rings (aluminum) and one of the new Simmons by Meade scopes, a 3x9x40. I have been curios to try one since Meade bought them out and revamped the line.

The weaver bases have one cross slot each, and it's more toward one end of the base than the other. Even with the bases installed so the cross slots are both close to the ejection port, the scope is too short to fit. My dremel is broken, so I very carefully used a bench grinder to grind a 45 degree bevel in the bottom and one cap of the ring to clear the objective bell, and touched them up before installing. Locktite was used on the bases of course.

The "Simmons by Meade" scope is pretty well made. Glass is better than any other "budget" scope I've seen (and I've seen plenty). It's actually pretty nice, but not as nice as the Nikon Buckmaster that will eventually replace it. The seals on this scope are TIGHT. Both turrets AND the power ring take quite a bit of effort to turn. The turrets themselves are finger adjustable (nice) but slightly mushy (not nice), and that was also exacerbated by the cold when I got out to the range as well. While there was NO slop in between clicks, it also seemed that it took a shot or two for adjustments to settle in. That made me unhappy.

Without even boresighting, first shot at 50 yards was proper elevation and 2" to the left. After a barrel clean and the first adjustment to the right, the next shot was a direct hit in the center of the bullseye. I moved back to 100 yards and fired 3 more shots and cleaned between each one, then fired three three shot groups and cleaned in between each group in an abbreviated break in, tweaking zero as I went. Ammo used was Remington factory 130 grain CoreLokt.

Bottom line.....for each cleaning, the first patch came out dirty, the second one clean. Proper follow through seems to have more impact with such a light rifle. The rifle and cartridge combo doesn't recoil very much, the solid rubber buttpad is just fine. Final three shot group was .7" from one end to the other, with the middle shot in the center of the 1" bullseye. I'm happy with it. I will bed an aluminum channel in the forearm and put a Nikon on it this winter, and will have a do anything capable hunting rifle for under $500. And you have to like that.

Time for a nap!!!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 17:24:33 (ZULU)

CDC', I looked at a S&W M&P carbine yesterday, pretty nice. I like the price, too. The LEO price, that is. The full retail put it in the range of some really high-end AR's, which means I probably won't go with the S&W. They're pretty proud of that machine.

Rock River (RRA) has some really nice carbines in the sub $900 range. Bushy has a nice lineup, as well.

For those with carbines, do you prefer the 'round' fore end with fixed front sight, or the quad-rail with flip-up BUIS? Nice thing about the quad-rail is ... plenty of places to hang fuzzy dice. :8--)

Duman
Friday, November 16, 2007, at 20:30:32 (ZULU)

Have any of you gotten to thoroughly wring out the Sig 556 yet? So far, I've only gotten to fondle them, but they're definitely on my wish list.

Travis Morgan
Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 01:58:49 (ZULU)

Youse guys have the schools you tolerate. At a local high school, a young, attractive, English teacher was discussing "advanced sexual theory and practice" during her classes. Some of the kids told there parents, who told other parents, a large majority demanded the teacher be fired. They were told by the school board that she could not be fired. The parents transfered there children to the next school nearby. When the school got to the point they would no longer transfer because it would bring their enrolment below the level to stay open. The remaining parents HOME SCHOOLED there children for the rest of the year. The school closed, the young teacher lost her job ...along with the beurocrats that defended her.

In my daughters high school the choir sings a lot of christian and patriotic songs (like yours did thirty years ago). A student asked the choir director why, he said because the constitution says we can!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 03:39:11 (ZULU)

Duman: Check out "Stag Arms".

CDC'
Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 03:59:11 (ZULU)

Geoff;

You can try stiffening the forend if you want to but I believe you will find that the flax point in those stocks is at the recoil lug pocket. Not much can be done to make a permanent improvement since the flex will simply move to the point of where you stopped. The best and easiest thing to do ig get an aftermarket stock like the Bell & Carlson. These are actually rather affordable and can be had in a variety of color and camo. Weight is a little more than the factory plastic but the balance is good. They also come with a Pachmayr (sp?) Decelerator pad on them (used to anyway).

All;

After having read the posts of the last few weeks, y'all make me happy I live where I do!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 07:10:16 (ZULU)

Hillary should be in prison for this. Why isn't she? Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 09:52:30 (ZULU)

CDC' - Thanks for the pointer, I'll take a look.

Travis, an evaluation of the SIG-556 is in the latest issue of "American Rifleman". And what the heck are you doing up at that whacky hour?

Duman
Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 11:56:10 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan: Good video. I C&P the link and spammed my family and friends with it.

Bill and Hill are characters straight out of "I Claudius". The book is worth your time. You'll never see the world in the same way.

Click my name.

CDC'
Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 15:11:50 (ZULU)

Littel Help for old memory

A while back I was sent some rings made by "OPS" and really liked them. Now of course I have lost contact information and can not find it. Can someone help

They are on East Coast, NJ I believe.

Thanks

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 17:48:15 (ZULU)

Maybe this is the outfit you're looking for.

http://www.opsgear.com/category-s/377.htm

John
WI, - Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 18:15:12 (ZULU)

No thats not it.

This man worked for FN and makes high dollar stuff. Machnes everything himself. Price point is probably at top of heap based on the rings he sent me.

Mike/Undude

I had a comp glich and lost some contact info.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 18:29:38 (ZULU)

Undude - I can't help with your search, but sure would be interested if it turns out that this shop is in fact in NJ.. I might do a recon trip if it's close to me. Please keep us posted what you find

medicjim
Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 19:08:47 (ZULU)

Gents, this Howa M1500 .308 in the green hogue stock is a winner. The Nikko-Sterling nighteater that came on it sits on a shelf, replaced by the old loopy VariXII 3-9 tactical. I feel better using that loopy, since the Nikko scope has a side focus designed for airgun ranges (it might be a decent scope for my 10/22 crow sniper, freeing up a 6x M8 for other uses).

First thing you notice is that the trigger is fantastic out of the box. I haven't gauged it, but can compare it to my GAP rille's trigger: This one breaks clean at or around 3 lbs, with just a hint of overtravel. There is no creep or rough spots. It just breaks the shot. I like it.

I shot a small variety of ammo and all at 100 yards--no time to really work on this since I was also breaking in the barrel and looking for the best hunting round with a few days to go. I settled quickly on two loads from hornaday as good-to-go for this stick: 165 TAP for precision work, and 150 SSTs for whitetails. These both go to the same zero settings, with the tap's best 5 (I was cleaning the barrel alot here) 0.8" wide by 0.9" tall---meaning I could probably try harder for an honest .75 MOA. Not bad for a sporter barrel under 20 rounds. Everything else shoots low, under these factory offerings. Now by low, I mean like 6" lower for 168 FGM, and 7" lower for Bravo's 175s. Remmy green box 150s shot 8" low and all over the place, and a federal 165 ballistic tip also shot lower for me, between the sierra stuff (IIRC). I suppose, after deer season, I have to actually get better representations for the loads and the rifle's groups with each at various ranges to 500 (regardless of POI deviations from POA). That way, I'll find out if the hornaday with current zero is the best way to go, or if one of the "low rounds" actually groups better and another hunting load will duplicate it.

I zeroed with this TAP load right off (figured it would be accurate stuff)--and was suprised that only one other load stayed up with it--literally. It is just as well, as these both shoot great groups.

My intitial observation: This gun is particular about bullet weights/ MV differences. I dunno about the TAP powders and velocities, but this stuff doesn't drop like anything else I had on the shelf (except the SSTs, which had a 1.1" average grouping--I forgot to mention that). All other 150s and heaviers shot lower, like a lot lower! And, the TAP felt "different" to the shoulder, like it has a little more snap into the shoulder. I wonder if this load isn't along the lines of what they call light-magnum loads. That would explain why this 165 stayed up with the 150s, and the hornaday hit higher than all other comers...still, it was wierd. My other 308s do not seem to mind changes of weights as much.

I am looking forward to ringing this riffle out after deer season:)

Oh, and Undude: I put one of your slings on it! It is a great product...and now i need more; just to always have a spare. FWIW, Angie loves hers too.

Joe M
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 05:03:30 (ZULU)

Joe:

If you had a chronograph you could measure the velocity of some of the loads :-) I'm using the Chrony, which is not a top-end product but does the job fine.

Sure about that Hornady TAP loading projectile weight?

This is what I could find for Hornady TAP .308 Win loadings available for sale to the general public:

308 WIN 110 GR TAP - FPD #80898 - 3165 fps

308 WIN 155 GR TAP - FPD #80928 - 2785 fps

308 WIN 168 GR TAP - FPD #80968 - 2700 fps

Those are all pretty standard SAAMI spec muzzle velocities for each of the projectile weights.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 19, 2007, at 07:40:13 (ZULU)

Rod, too bad for the general public then. This stuff shoots per-t good:))

It is 165gr Hornady TAP/ barrier (product code 80995, Lot#3050673) Law enforcement ammunition; I thought it odd for the 165s and not 168s--but I double-checked the box before posting that! So I guess I have a source for near-unobtanium bullets for play. BTW, i get them cheaper than the over-priced FGM 168s. But not quite as cheap as the BHs 168 match.

a chrono is on the short list of must-haves. Spending must be metered to fly under the nag-threshold, else I'd already have one.

Joe M
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 08:13:09 (ZULU)

Joe, glad to hear you folks like the slings. Makes me feel good to know folks like them.

Question on the Houge stock. I have been thinking of hunting rig stock and wondered about these? Is green available for 700SA with Varmint Taper bbl?

Undude/Mike

Please some one help me on the OPS Rings thing.

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, November 19, 2007, at 14:45:39 (ZULU)

JoeM,

"a chrono is on the short list of must-haves. Spending must be metered to fly under the nag-threshold, else I'd already have one."

LMAO!! Would that be flying under "Nag-dar" ?

Duman
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 16:04:28 (ZULU)

never mind on search I found it.

For Medic and others

Marc Wollman V/P

OPERATIONAL PRODUCTS SUPPLY & SERVICES

1545 RT 37 West STE 6

Toms River NJ 08755

732/286-9868 ph

732/286-9869 fax

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, November 19, 2007, at 19:25:33 (ZULU)

Undude: They do, but the ones I've seen are "DM"---not sure if it will take standard bottom metal or not. Two versions of the green overmold stock: One is pillars only in a plastic base--with a foreend that has the same wiggle as a savage composite at 160 bucks, then they offer the full aluminum bedding block (foreend too) that stiffens it up for 290 bucks. That is MSRP--you will be able to find them cheaper!

Edited to add: If you have a few weeks, you nay want to see how my cheap-hogue fixer project works out. First I need to find out the thickness of the overmolding rubber---cause i want to mill away a sliver alongside the right fore end barrel channel as it seems to lean in onto the barrel slightly on the bipod. I figure I can mill away a touch inside and cure that without tearing it up. Also, once the deer season ends, i will pull the action and see what lies beneath. If I can hawg out a small channel, I may place a rod into the stock dead center of the barrel channel, perhaps by arcing the the front end of the channel away from the "touching" area so to add slight pressure away from that contact patch--while stiffening the front a bit. Think of rebar in bedding compound here. And, if the rubber isn't flimsey and all around messy to deal with or otherwise in the way, a bedding job would be nice just for fun. That way, this 159 dollar version will end up with the features of the 290 dollar stock. Much depends on what lies beneath, and how that rubber overmolding is coated on. If it is a thin layer that will "roll away" from any cuts--then all bets are off. But if it is just a chuck of rubber with no stretching--then i might get away with the modifications.

And if I ruin it--I can always upgrade to the stiffer version:) I made a decent trade, at lower than average retail prices (not at wholesale, so the dealer got a good deal too) for this rifle. So, in my mind I am at liberty to try things without feeling a pinch in the wallet.

Geoff M did a mod to his savage stock to cure the same ills. At best, I will also save a little weight--at worst, I end up with the heavier stock that is better.

All this just because I want to lean on it off the 'pod and be sure that the stock isn't leaning on the barrel:))

Joe M
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 20:47:18 (ZULU)

Lito'-san,

Looks like they got the guy that did the smasn-n-grab at your favorite dealer's shop.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-ctnewguns1116.artnov16,0,1024646.story

Duman
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 23:12:04 (ZULU)

Duman...

Yup, that's them. They have big blue tarps covering the front of the store, and you go in like going into a tent ;)

Since there's still no front on the store, they have 24 hour "armed" (Duh) guards in the place.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 03:17:21 (ZULU)

Click. Damn interesting gun. Would be awesome for cats or carp from a kayak.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 04:44:05 (ZULU)

I'm in lust! This would be damn handy, mounted vertically right behind my hip, on my saddle. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 09:55:26 (ZULU)

How do you fellas think the above configuration would work chambered in .480 or .454? Something similar woulda been handy back in my packin' and guidin' days, I think. It would have at least been reassuring.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 14:10:47 (ZULU)

Travis...

You Definitely have too much time on your hands ;)))

I'm gonna be kinda scarce for the next two months - trial date is January 10th through the 15th.

It's looking real good for me, but I have a ton of work to do... I have to make up files, anticipate who their witnesses are going to me (this is not a pre-discovery trial, surprise (aka ambush) witnesses are allowed... and I have a few HA!)

So, I may peep in from time to time... but not too much.

You guys have a great Thanksgiving and Christmas - I'll see you on Jan 16th.

And love the hell out of your family and especially your kidlets... all the rest in life is meaningless in the end.

All prayers are welcome.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 14:54:02 (ZULU)

'lito, best of luck with the trial and may the Holidays be the merriest!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 15:01:37 (ZULU)

Lito, We will miss you, but you have more important things to take care of. I pray everything will turnout just as you desire. Hope you have good holidays even though you are under pressure.

HDR
OK, - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 15:48:56 (ZULU)

Lito: Count on my families prayers for yours and Ruggus's success. Wish I had more to offer!

Joe M
Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 16:11:20 (ZULU)

'lito,

Count me in too. You'll be in our prayers.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 17:27:53 (ZULU)

Best of luck to you, 'Lito, and hold steadfast in the the belief in the ultimate rightness of your cause!

And remember that revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 18:11:37 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Prayers said!

SSG Mac
Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 20:23:51 (ZULU)

Good luck Lito!

SSG Mac, email inbound. (Youth Rifle Program)

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 23:05:09 (ZULU)

Good luck Lito!

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 00:24:46 (ZULU)

JLU

Reply inbound

SSG Mac
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 00:41:17 (ZULU)

Gents,

'Lito, our prayer's and thoughts will be with you and rugratus during the court proceedings. Sounds like you have a good op plan and if I know you several back ups! I almost pity the opposition and those folks that did you wrong early in the proceedings.

If you get the chance remember; "Never do your enemy a small injury".

When the second elk season ended there had been ten elk taken in the area I hunt. One was a 4X5 Bull. The locals used massive amounts of people, radios, etc. to effect that success. That's not hunting, IMHO. Next season one of my partners and I are going into the wilderness area further west to get away from this type of thing.

Lindy, whatever happended on your 6.5 project? Did I miss something during my absence?

Doctors still will not clear me to return to duty. Probably several more weeks. They want the orthopedic specialist to make an assessment first. This sucks goggles...

Just realized it's only 3 months until the State Sniper Championship. Time to get cracking.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 03:52:55 (ZULU)

Lito,

Despite our disagreement I sincerely wish you only the best in your efforts with and for your son. My prayers will be with you.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 05:09:11 (ZULU)

In this vid a guy gets tased by a cop. I'd like to get some comments from cops.

CDC'
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 10:21:40 (ZULU)

Lito.

Hammer "em" hard Prayers are with you.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 10:57:57 (ZULU)

'Lito- good luck on the legal stuff.

Happy Turkey Day to all, I'll be working.

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 12:17:38 (ZULU)

Wes: Perhaps you're thinking of someone else - I've never had a 6.5mm project.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 12:32:19 (ZULU)

Lito You got the prayers, good luck with the case & keep us posted.

Joe M Just read the stock stiffening ideas. I don't know why but rebar in a gun although a great idea just sounds hillarius. Can you long drill the stock from the front all the way to the bedding block with something like an "installers bit" and insert the rebar that way? I'm not sure if the bits are made that large, my largest is only 9/16 but they are that long. The roughness of the rebar would give it good gripping action inside the drilled hole.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 14:23:27 (ZULU)

CDC: I think the trooper was a little quick on the trigger with the Taser. Yeah, the driver was being snotty. Yeah, he refused to sign the ticket. In my experience, though, once you explain to people that the ticket is their promise to appear in court where they can explain to the judge, and that REFUSAL to sign the ticket means they go DIRECTLY in front of the judge, they usually sign. 30 seconds of explanation would probably have sufficed. There's a world of difference between questioning and disobedience. Once an American citizen is ever afraid of questioning the police, bad things are afoot. I had this conversation with a brand new rookie just yesterday. I told him that talk, talk, talk was better than fight, fight, fight anyday. The trooper should have spent a few more seconds explaining the ramifications of NOT signing to the driver.

Which brings me to the second thing. What's up with the present trend of giving EVERY officer a Taser? And having them carry it around on the Bat belt? Maybe I'm old, and out of touch, but it seems to me that we're allowing the new kids to get out of touch with what it means to use force on citizens. If you have to actually go mano a mano with someone for a law enforcement reason, it tends to make you rely more on your skills of reason and verbal persuasion. I'm seeing the Taser being used for reasons I find disturbing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they never be used, but the current crop of youngsters seem to be using them because they just don't want to fight someone; it allows them to coerce compliance from a stand-off distance. I don't carry a Taser. I don't want one. I'll spend 15 minutes, or more, trying to persuade someone to comply (especially on something as mundane and harmless as a speeding ticket) with what I want them to do. If that fails, I'm prepared to crack open a new carton of South Tejas jihad on them if I have to. And most folks can see that, if you mean it.

In short, he overrreacted.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 14:49:53 (ZULU)

Charles S.-you missed the most important/worst part after "fight, fight, fight". Write, write, write. Then there's the obligatory visit to the local ER, possibly for both of you.

Come to think of it, there's also lawyer, lawyer, lawyer:))))))

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 15:15:54 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt,

I agree, explanation of the process might have helped.

However, the guy didn't seem to shut up long enough for the officer to get a word in edgwise. The guy, to me, appeared to be acting irrationally. With all the whacky things/people that officers have to encounter, I can't find fault with the officer. Questioning an officer is one thing, which is what occurred, but refusing to listen to an answer and ignoring instructions (intended to keep everyone safe) is completely different.

Having NO experience, I'm in no position to pass judgement. I think I would rather have the guy tasered than have one, both, or all three of them in the hospital (the wife was a wildcard). My opinion only.

My apologies if this offends anyone's sensibilities. I shall now take cover....

Duman
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 16:21:34 (ZULU)

Catman, prayers sent for you to win big. Will be thinking of you.

Should have some big news at Shot Show this year. New products, branching into other sniper areas. Come see me and say hello.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 16:46:16 (ZULU)

Jeff C: I am not using real rebar (hahahaha)---that is just an example of the concept. The foreend is wiggly now, and if I can dig a channel in the bottom center of the barrel channel without ruining the stock, then I will inlay a small aluminum spar, maybe a angled piece of flat stock, and then use bedding compound to bury it and re-conour the channel to original specs. It is all contingent on what lies beneath that rubber coating though. Basically, I am trying to get the performance of the higher-end stock (full length aluminum bedding block) out of the low end (pillars in plastic) one that came with this rifle. Besides, it is the perfect practice at bedding--if i screw up, I end up where I am now---needing to spend money for something a bit better. Although I had thought of drilling in from the front and tossing a rod in. Too problematic though.

Back to the field for hunting ops. Geoff came up again to try his hand. We stayed up late cleaning guns...and drinking experimental bloody marys. For some reason, the morning hunt time-frame was a miserable experience. Perhaps gun-cleaning is not a good idea the night before a hunt?

Joe M
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 19:39:36 (ZULU)

Chuck, I think we handle that a bit better in NC. At least we did. I hope it hasn't changed. The signiture there only showed that the violator was given a copy. If they refused, we were told to write REFUSED on the space given and let the Judge see that they refused.

Most "frequent flyers" learned.

Yeah, I think he was fast in the trigger too. I bet he leads his squad in "resist and delay" charges. I hate the type.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 21:37:56 (ZULU)

Lito

Good luck and Godspeed!

Pat II
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 21:44:52 (ZULU)

Lito:

Best of luck in your upcoming challenge!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 00:09:25 (ZULU)

That cop was just being a dick. Get the guy out of the car, have him park it on your hood for a minute, while you get in the car and do "something" for a minute or two and decompress. THEN get out and explain about signing the ticket. If necessary, cuff him.

There was absolutely no reason for the officer to escalate the situation. He's supposed to be the professional on the scene.

As for the widespread over? use of tasers, it seems that a lot of bigger departments are hiring mouthy little chickenshits, not bothering to teach them anything, not teaching them to shoot or how to fight, then turning them loose. Those cowards seem to love their tasers.

Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 02:50:24 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving Hawgs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally got through with prepping for the frying of the bird. Time for some eggnog and hit the sack.

One more match left this year then I start playing with 22's and stuff that has set silent in the safe for a long time. I found a Marlin 444 hiding in the back of the safe that I haven't shot since I bought it.

If you are traveling, stay safe! Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 03:05:04 (ZULU)

Bolt,

I was gonna fry our bird, too ....... until I saw they wanted $28 for 3 gallons of oil! That's just bullshit. Too bad I can't fry it in 10-30!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 03:09:05 (ZULU)

Saw the video and as a guy who read training reports and decided who did right and who did wrong. This is simple. The Officer F'D UP HUGE.

Force is usually taught in levels:

Verbal commands

Control Holds/hands on

Baton/Chemical weapons/Taser

Deadly force

Now based on what I saw I see a huge problem with a lack of verbal commands ordering suspect what to do.

He jumps to Taser past controls with no justification

You can jump levels but you have to have damm good reason to.

A man walking away and you tasering him without warning equals huge money for the suspect in end and probable job loss for Officer.

What an embarrassment to all LE Officers active and retired (like me)

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 04:20:07 (ZULU)

Travis, there you go again. It's not enough that we disagree with the officer in what he did. But, by calling the majority of the cops "chickenshits", you lose any credibility and the privilege of conversing with adults about the pros and cons of use of force on American citizens. You're just a mouthy little punk that hates cops and will take any opportunity to badmouth a profession that you so obviously know not a damned thing about. Grow up before you presume to speak in adult circles about adult topics. Here's your assignment for the day. Walk up to any police officer and spout off your juvenile opinions in the same way you regurgitate them on this site. Get back with us and let us know how it turned out. Preferrably by sending a copy of your booking slip.....

Still, the officer, in my opinion, jumped the gun. Even the most obnoxious traffic offender is usually susceptible to a calm, even demeanor and a reasoned explanation of what is coming if they don't comply. As long as we remember that we exercise our authority with the consent of those we excercise it on, most cases will turn out all right. A traffic offense is just that, a minor traffic matter. As long as no one got hurt, there's no sense in making a big deal of it. Let's even go so far as to suppose that the offender got in his car and sped away. Do you try to grab him, up the ante and get someone hurt over speeding. Nope. Get the license plate and file on him at large for it. It's not worth getting anyone hurt over. Training and experience will show him this.

Y'all have a wonderfull Thanksgiving day, love your family and spend as much time as you can with them.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 05:19:24 (ZULU)

Charles,

As usual, you ignored all of a post to focus on a pecieved insult.

If you go back and read objectively, you'll see that I never called the majority of cops chickenshits. I was talking about a lot of the scrawny little pricks that seem to be getting hired anymore.

Apparently, they'd rather hire a kid with a liberal arts degree and its attendant liberal way of thinking than some ole boy from the sticks with some common sense, that is big enough to write a parking ticket without having to taser everyone in the vicinity for "officer safety". It seems that (rightly, in my mind) they used to hire bigger guys, just so they wouldn't have to fight as often. I guess it's just the way of the world, now. Replace strength, intelligence, and ability with technology and a talking head with an ego.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 05:45:13 (ZULU)

Click. Any of you ever played with one of these?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 06:05:06 (ZULU)

Travis, no one wants to be a cop anymore. Pay is crap and you deal with AH's all day. Easier way to make living and frankly most of public treats you like crap. Go sign up and make a difference. I did my 25 and now see the public getting what it asked for after Rodney King. Us bruisers are all but gone. Bring back good pay Quit crapping on us and new great guys will come out and do the job.

By the way am I the only man in America that knows Rodney Kind could have been white, green or clear and gotten same results after crap he pulled? Some dudes just eed thier butts kicked and he was one of them.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 06:18:41 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm thankful to all of those over there, making sure I can be over here, being a fat, lazy, thankful American.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 10:18:09 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving !!!!!!!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 13:04:13 (ZULU)

While I echo the sentiments for a Happy Thanksgiving, I think it's a little sad that we reserve a single day per year to consider and be thankful for all that we have.

I suspect we'd all benefit from considering those many blessings the first thing each day after we woke up, including, but not limited to, the fact that we did wake up.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 14:28:48 (ZULU)

It's Thanksgiving Day, my fave. I woke up this morning, which is a good enough reason to give thanks to God, my Maker and Creator, author of this awesome universe. I am here because He saw fit to give me life, and whatever happens, I know it's for a reason. So, I'm thankful. I've been around the world, several times, and everything I've seen convinces me that we are the most blessed, comfortable and abundant nation in the history of the world. Thank you, Lord, for giving this to us, and thank you for good family, friends, and acqaintances with which we can share our love of ballistics. Give us, this day, a good day to enjoy the gifts we have, and help us to remember where, and from Whom, we get them.

Here endeth the sermon. Offering plates are at the doors on the way out....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 15:51:32 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Happy Thanksgiving.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The snow covered Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 16:05:49 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Americans have much to be thankful for. As my dad used to say; "We cut a fat hog."

Cops: Thanks for the comments. It's good to know that you don't agree with that piss-ant little bully tazing that guy, terrorizing his pregnant wife and doing an illegal search.

Pablo: Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of thier women.

CDC'
Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 16:18:40 (ZULU)

Still on this side of the grass. Lots to be thankful for. Happy Thanksgiving!

Hank
Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 16:59:07 (ZULU)

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!

Anyone: Does anyone have any experience with removing the spacer in the magazine "not removable box" to make more room for longer OAL cartridges in a Win M70? If removed have you had any feeding problems? Should I just buy another, or are there any problems with just removing the metal spacer?

What's everyones opinion on the most accurate .308 cal hunting bullets. I'm using 180grn Accubonds in my 300RUM but would like to know your experiences with lighter bullets "150-170" for the 308win. Feel free to continue E-mailing me with your favorite loads for the 308win. I'm building a pretty good load refrence sheet. I appreciate your input.

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 17:15:20 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving to all, especially those downrange.

Pat II
Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 18:18:04 (ZULU)

Gents,

Wanted to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving before the grand kids get here and the house degenerates into pandamonium. My best to all especially those who are on the tip of the spear.

Charles H., you summed it up better than I could. We are truely blessed. To bad a lot of folks think that's something to apologize for or be embarrassed about. Put me in the crowd that thinks it's something worth defending and to cherish.

Undude, you're not the only one to feel that way about the Rodney King incident. In Corrections we get to see those pieces of fecal material every day. Sad that politics, policy, or being tried in the press mean more than what is right. Management has got staff to the point where they piss all over each other and trust has gone down the tube. You're right, why would anyone want to make a career in Law Enforcement? I used to think it was to make a difference, but have come to realize that in most cases we are not allowed too. Sad.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving. Didn't mean to make that a rant, but the frustration comes out all to often. My bad.

Joe M., The new Shotgun News has an article about Howa's new recoil reducing rifle. Basically, the Howa Model 1500 in a Knoxx Action Stock. Might not be a bad idea if you ever get feeling wimpy. Personally, if someone is recoil sensitive using a .308 there's probably no hope for them...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 21:21:50 (ZULU)

Jeff...

Yup. I have done did that!

The spacer is a box that is spot welded to the back of the mag box.

First drill out the spot welds.

If you want to remove it entirely, then cut the back plate of the spacer box off... cuz you need that piece to hold the magazine box together.

You can silver solder it back on, or just use epoxy it on. Make SURE that the plate does NOT cover the notch at the back bottom of the magazine box, cuz that where the front of the trigger guard goes into.

If you silver solder it on, boil it in boiling water for 10 minutes to get the flux out, otherwise, it will rust. Then cover it in G-96 spray oil (cuz it smells real good!!).

Then put it together, and put the bolt in, and draw the bolt back until it hits the stop plate. See how much it has to go back to get to the NEW back of the magazine box... measure it!

Then remove the bolt stop plate, and with a Dremel tool, cut the stop place back (a LITTLE AT A TIME!!) so that when the bolt comes back to the stop, it goes about 1/20th" past the back of the magazine box, to insure that it pickes up a new round each time.

Use a GOOD cold blue (Brownells "Oxpho-Blue"), and touch up all the bare metal... load it up with G-96, and you are done.

I have done over 20 rifles, and it workie just fine.

Happy bird days guys. Hug your kidlets for me.

And pray for Bravo - he has 14 gallons of turkey stuffing to eat ;)))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 21:29:46 (ZULU)

Cop using a taser. That shit was just plain funny I don't care who you are. To quote Larry the Cable Guy. The knuckle head did not explain what would happen if he failed to sign the ticket. I have had one person in the last 13 years fail to sign a ticket after I splained the situation to them.

Lito Good Luck.. Dito what CDC said when he quoteth Arnold/Conan.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Hope Bolt is still smoke free.

I will be heading to the Bianchi Cup in 2008 soI shall be shooting a bunch of pistol ammo till then.

Dirty Steve...

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 23:29:39 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: John Milius stole the "Crush your enemies" line from Ghenghis Khan.

CDC'
Friday, November 23, 2007, at 00:32:56 (ZULU)

CDC and Dirty Steve...

Thanks guys - I'll do my best ;)

I wanna tell you bums how much your support and e-mails have meant over the last few years.

When it got dark, I had a bunch of bums to turn to - better than a lawyer anytime ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 01:24:05 (ZULU)

AR-15 Dry Firing

I recently picked up a little tool from Sinclair International, called a "Dry Firing Device". It's a little plastic insert, fits into the bolt carrier. With this device, you don't have to pull the extractor all the way back to cock the rifle. Only requires ~1/4 the retraction, which speeds up dry-firing drills. This thing works great.

Sinclair International, www.sinclairintl.com, part #14-455

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=HEARAR&item=14-455&type=store

Happy holidays to everyone.

P.S.-Regarding the tasering, I stand corrected. Thanks to those of you who serve in the military, LEO, firefighters, EMTs, or some other form of dangergous public service.

Duman
Friday, November 23, 2007, at 02:39:55 (ZULU)

Lito Thanks for the instructions. They're printed and placed in the "how to" 3 ring binder I have to keep. And once again, good luck in court.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 03:07:53 (ZULU)

Guys,

Cooked my first turkey this year. Injected it all over with a liberal application of italian dressing. Got rave reviews. Really moist.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 03:26:10 (ZULU)

To all, happy Thanksgiving! Especially those who stand guard, Mil, LEO, Fireman, EMS, ALL...

I'm still above ground and turned 65 today.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 03:43:50 (ZULU)

Jeff: You're going to have to spend money to find out. This Howa really likes the Hornady TAP 165gr (I now have TAP loads in 150 and generic 168 to play with after deer season)--and it shoots the 150gr SST Inter-Locks (light-mag varients) really well too. My SPR shoots Federal premimium 165 plastic tip thingies (WTF--I cannot remember their brand name, ballistic tips?), in fact, most of these plastic tip bullets in various weights shoot decently in a variety of my riffles. That SPR is the closest thing I have to your HV. My 300 likes the winchester talon loads in 180--but I do not shoot "heavies" in my 308s. The GAP riffle gets 175s, and that is the heaviest in the house. I now have a pile of loads to try out once my range goes hot again. But seldom will two stock rifles shoot the same loads equally; you have to feed the beasts til they like something.

Sir Wes: I don't need to dial the recoil down...not yet anyway:) I love the rgonomics as-is, but the "lean" on the fore end while on the bipod bothers me. As accurate as this 1500 is so far, I wonder if it can't be squeezed a bit harder? I figure I can try to stiffen what I have, and bed the action. If that is ruinous to the overmolding, then I spring for the higher-end hogue and start over. Its all good...

I will say that the M1500 is a sleeper decent gun, much like savage. And, a 5+1 magazine is nice too. Ya never know when you will have one of those magic moments when you tag out the whole family in one sitting:)) OK, so that has only gone down once in Alaska...but it COULD happen (or so I keep telling myself).

I had three does cross my KZ at its most constricted point this morn. I sat down lower to have a better FOV at the woodline where they were supposed to cross, but these fems were savy to the ways of the hunt. No biggie--they were heading up to my cousin over the hill from the 500 yard target. Yeah...and he misses at some 40 feet but does fell three birch saplings in the process. Oh well. But the wife shot "socks" this morning--an old buck that we have on film. Seems that his 12 point rack got lost somewhere. I couldn't help but think of Bob the Nailer knocking horns off trophies somewhere off my back forty:))

Geoff got a decent 8-pointer while here this week, so his long ass drives to and fro were worth it. The rack is average across the beam, but it projects forward very nicely. It will look good on his wall.

I am making a habit of sending deer to others. It ain't unselfishness on my part--but it might be the late season archery is still out there, and the december gun anterless season...and maybe that urge to set up a shot to remember. Whether it is a close runner swinging the slugger or a long ridge to ridge on a standing doe, I just have little interest in the family "drives" this year. I enjoy settling in alone over a trail and waiting...listening to the sounds of the woods.

Tomorrow is kids' day. Nieces and nephews, Blake and two adults to set them up. Once they get tired and cold...its my turn again:))

Happy T-day, Hawgs.

Joe M
Friday, November 23, 2007, at 05:10:45 (ZULU)

Lindy,

>I suspect we'd all benefit from considering those many blessings the first thing each day after we woke up, including, but not limited to, the fact that we did wake up.<

Some of us actually do that every day. Kinda mellows out the day.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 06:11:16 (ZULU)

Joe:

The Federal Premium plastic-tipped used the Nosler Ballistic Tips.

Jeff:

I've handloaded the 165g .308 dia Nosler Ballistic Tips in .308 Win. Excellent accuracy in my experience. The published ballistic coefficients are optimistic, but that is only an issue for really long range shooting. The Ballistic Tips have a very heavy jacket, so they're not going to "blow up" like a varmint bullet on deer-size game. The famous Jeff Cooper mentions using 150g Ballistic Tips in .308 Win for hunting whitetails.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 06:11:53 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving hawgs. I have to agree with Chuck Hunt and Lindy. Good posts.

Don't listen to Joe, who suddenly got all modest and stuff. I don't know anybody else within driving range that I can drink and talk guns and politics with that makes any sense....most everybody else just looks at me funny :-)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 07:13:27 (ZULU)

Joe: Just lay Accraglass down the inside of the handguard as deep as you can and still free-float the barrel. Worked for me. YMMV. Also, I drilled a hole in the stock and bedding a bit closer to the mag well than the factory position. Gets the weight off the end of the stock, which reduces the bending moment, and also changes the geometry to allow faster movement of the muzzle in case the Talib--, um, deer, starts moving and you need to adjust.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 15:40:17 (ZULU)

Joe & Rod Trust me, I know how you feel when words and names escape vocublary. Accubonds are supposed to be the "match" version of the ballistic tip as far as QC goes, but in a heavy game not varimt. I think Balistic tips are probably the way to go also. That's what I load in my 300RUM. I was thinking like you guys, and Jeff"dean"Cooper about using 150's maybe the 165's if they'll group. I'm pretty sure if I play with powders and weights I can get them to group. Actually gonna give the "Ladder Test" a try along with my normal load and shoot 3 going up by 2/10 grn increments. It'll be something fun to do. I haven't had to work a new load since I got the 300 3 years ago. Do you guys know of anyone shooting them any farther than 500 out to 1000 or so in a 308win. I'm curios if they would also make a decent target round compared to SMK's and the others. I'll hunt with factory ammo, probably the Win 165 ballistic silver tip, this year till I manage to shoot up my Lake City Match practicing and have cases to reload. And I already have 2 boxes of it. If anyone wants the Win cases when I'm done they're welcome to them. Actually Monica will hunt with it. and she's not going to shoot over 250yds.

On the setting others up for kills on hunts, I get just as great a sense of accomplishment when they get their animal as if I get it myself. I've got a friend that I've hunted with since fraternity days in college. He doesn't have places of his own to hunt or the time to scout. I've set him up with some wall hangers including a 19 point non-typical that I had been watching all summer from the plane when spraying the bean fields around where he feed. I had him patterened down to the minute. My other buddy asked me why "give deer like that away"? I told him if it's not big enough to go on the wall, his wife doesn't let him kill them. And, My Personal Opinion, I think non-typicals are UGLY so I didn't want it on my wall. He loves it along with the other 4 typicals I put him on.

Thanks for the info, good luck with your hunts, and sorry for rambeling.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 16:20:43 (ZULU)

I wonder how many of you guys are like me on this day. Every year I am the bad guy in the house cause I don't wish to go to San Antonio or any other city on Black Friday He He.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 17:09:54 (ZULU)

Rod, thanks for the reminder. I haven't bought these in a long time (still a ten-tree or four laying about). During construction of the gun room all extraneous ammo boxes went to the burn pit:)) The trees are sharpie-marked with minimal info: Fed, 165s, 308 etc. Ha, but not who makes the projectiles! It seemd to me at the time I could google it...but we all now know that I am too lazy to do so.

Also during the construction, the wife saw 20 or so little boxes, all containing "brass." So she figured one medium sized box is easier to store off to the side. Yep. Dumped it all in. If I can beat my laziness, I may have to re-sort all that mess. At least the Lap, Hornady and BHs 308 and rem 260 was bagged or cased and avoided this conjumbulation.

Charles: Once you retire, you ought to consider an article here on that bedding job: maybe take a few digital pics and label the mods on a photo shop style program. A DiTY bedding, with fore end work added and extra glass toward the mag (that works) is not the usual how-to we see day in and day out. I dunno about anyone else, but I'd read it.

My ex did get tired of son free-loading, and he skipped out and showed up on my door step. His clock is running. I am helping him find work (ain't easy due to a total lack of experience and summer jobs of 90 day or less duration as a resume). And, it is infringing on my scrap yard crawling (targets). He insists he is going to join the military, but is still wanting to do so in the spring. My feeling is that he is freaked out about the war. It was all cool and glory while in the abstract...but now it is staring him in the face and he is scared shitless. This is a problem, because I kinda had the same reservations---with only the cold war to stare at. And yeah, once in the service, this prospect of war is never "oh boy! can't wait!" either; it sends chills each and every time. So, how do I walk him thru these thoughts? My tipping point came thru my bad behavior as a deliquent---I'd rather he avoids that path.

Next project (other than ridding myself of this roommate by padding some recruiter's quota) is to install steel hangers from 300 to 800 yards, along with two new permanent firing points. My JD4020 will provide target berms as backdrops too--which allows for a few extra target locations that I have so far avoided due to a lack of backdrop. Terrain dictates that which the wife hasn't placed off limits for bullet paths (if not for her, I'd have an honest thou). I already share space with pasture (have to corral horses before each session, but they do come when called by name). Ah, if only everything was so simple as this problem.

MORGUE: Sent email replies. You get them??? Also, I have two nieces in 'Diego. One is an intel squiddie, the other is just hangin' with sis starting in January. Figured you or your compadres might...errr, heheh....offline discussion.

Joe M
Friday, November 23, 2007, at 17:19:24 (ZULU)

Jim: I waved off a trip to Corpus on the same basis. We want to go see the movie "No Country for Old Men" - but that will wait until people go back to work on Monday, which we don't.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 17:39:36 (ZULU)

Well, I sure dodged a bullet this morning. My wife had to work today, and my daughter tells me that last night she and a friend were talking about wanting to go to the freaking mall today!!! I'm thinking OH HELL NO. Then I got to thinking, what's one afternoon, I can use it to practice thinking about what I'd do if someone went nuts in a mall, which may be me if I'm going today.

Anyway, thank God, her friend couldn't make it. We're now on our way to the local range to shoot pistols, and may be carbines. Thank you God.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 19:35:28 (ZULU)

Joe, your killing me. Back in early 1980s I bought a Pak'd, matte oil finished nice walnut stocked, Howa sniper rifle for next to nothing. I kept awhile and then let it go. Man I want that rifle back. Looked, felt and shot like a USMC M40. I was young and dumb and did not understand who cares its nota Remington it shoots like a BR rifle.

Now one day I will trip into one and call it mine.

Last week I tripped intoa Grendel Folding sniper rifle built on Sako action and am waiting for it to go into the never to be sold rifle colelction. Been looking for one of these for ten years.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 19:52:21 (ZULU)

Jeff:

I'm running the Lapua 155g Scenar w/moly in .308 Win with a caseful of Varget for my long range loading. We have an 800 meter range locally. Velocity in my barrel around 2835 ft/sec, 45.5g Varget (1999 lot). I have to vibrate the powder charge to get it to compact enough to fit properly. Running Lapua brass, Winchester LR primers. Using around .005 thou jump to throat, Obermeyer chamber in a Mike Rock 5R brl. (Savage 110).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 22:09:25 (ZULU)

I've heard most sniper/long distance scoped are fixed 10X. Why not fixed 20X or variable power. Does it have to do with the Mil-Dot calculations? What should I be buying for long distance shooting?

HAM

Dick Hammaker
Burke, VA, USA - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 23:15:24 (ZULU)

Ham,

Try to find a target at 500 yards on 20X. Your FOV will be shit. They're fine for targets, but a bitch for scanning.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 23:54:39 (ZULU)

Dick: Marine Corps snipers have transitioned from fixed 10s to a 3-12 variable with a first focal-plane reticle, so that the reticle may be used for holdovers, holdunders, wind holds, and moving target leads at any magnification. Most military snipers are doing something similar.

I think the best power range for tactical shooting is about a 4-16 variable with a FFP reticle. That way you can dial way down for close targets, to about 8X which is close to optimum for low-light use with or without night vision gear, and up to max power for long-distance targets.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 00:33:12 (ZULU)

I did OK with a 4 power once when it was scored for keeps. It wasn't the reticle placement that caused the follow up. It was them nasty ass mountain breezes.

Lately, my power ring is frozen on 3x.

Magnification is over rated mostly. It will magnify the good, the bad and the ugly equally. FFP is a great idea in any case, though I am wishing loopy still made those 6x M8 mildot scopes--for the same reason the 10x fixed was such a standard for so long:

Fixed scopes were always more robust and simple---nice features for a billy club (rough handling is the only certainty for Mil rifles). The latest stuff in variables have caught up in durability lately, and the move to these is underway. I saw a bunch of the 4-14x MKIVs in Iraq--and "you name it" variables in the 'stan where you once saw only ultras. SB PMII and their little straight tube scopes were prevelant too.

For me, I realized that my eyes faded away from the factory focus settings on the ocular rather late in that game. It was a slow fade that I failed to notice for ever--and when I finally tuned the focus, I no longer need power to overcome the "problem" I was having. I can shuck my glasses and shoot x's on 3x all day long. The difference was (is) amazing--and so was the number of turns I used to get it right. Man...if cranking to the edge of the housing is indicative--my eyes now officially suck! Bottom line is that I only need full power to mil (though I have a correction in place on my M3LR and NF for mid points). I oughta measure up another for the 3-9 too. It would be cool to have ready conversions for 3x on my hunting stick. I got the holdovers calc'd at 9x, but what good is it if I ain't there?

Joe M
Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 01:57:17 (ZULU)

Joe: I have one of the Leupold 4.5-14X50M1 with a Premier Gen II reticle in it. It's my favorite Leupold scope for tactical shooting.

When Schmidt & Bender first came out with the 5-25X56, I saw it at the SHOT Show, and fell in lust - it's got better glass than any spotting scope I've seen.

But after shooting around here for about 6 months thereafter, I noticed that I pretty much never turned my power ring about 13, and shot most stuff from 700 yards and in on about 10 - so I saved myself three grand.

I think the S&B 4-16X50 is just about perfect.

More game - and more people - have been shot with 4X scopes than anything else.

And, then, of course, there was that crafty Fin, Simo Hayha, who whacked 540 Russians with an iron-sighted Mosin Nagant M28 and a submachine gun.

Maybe it's not about the scope.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 04:25:55 (ZULU)

Gents,

Interesting comments concerning scopes. Probably one of the most mis-understood pieces of equipment in shooting. All kinds of old wives tales and mis-information. My favorite tactical scope is a Luppie MK IV M1 10X. It has all the magnification I need for my .308. The old Luppie 6X was a good one, too. Have gone as high as 16X, but it was just to much power for general use. The variable has come into it's own and I've got 2 of the Luppie 3.5 X 10 X M1 LR's. One on my 6.5 X .284 and the other on my Winch Stealth .223. Good glass, although like Lindy I would love to have a S&B. Just a bit to rich for my blood...

Undude, Saw one of the Grendel "folders" in .308 about 8-10 years ago. Guy wanted to sell it. Your's truely had the money, but didn't see the need for it. Interesting rifle. Didn't know enough about them at the time to REALLY know how unique it was. Especially with the SAKO action. Nice rifle.

Joe M, Brownells is selling JARD triggers for the Howa's. Pre-set at 14, 19, 22, 26, and 28 OZ. Similar to the Rem 700 trigger with that style of safety.

As for shooting your Howa off the bi-pod I wish you luck. I've always shot better over my pack and not bad with a sling. The Parker Hale bi-pod and spigot/handstop arrangement for my M40 A1's is great, but my feeling is that it's not needed. Guess it's like a Ford vs. Chevy thing.

Bedding the Howa. Really don't know that much about them. If the stock has an aluminum bedding block I'd consider skim bedding it. If the stock is all glass you might want to hog it out a bit and pillar bed it. It sounds as your shootin' fine as is...

All my rifles are fully bedded with the exception of the Winnie Stealth's aluminum bedding block. It shoot's into .5" @ 100 yards if I do my part, so see no reason to skim bed it. If I ever get bored maybe.

The best general purpose bullet I've used, accuracy wise, is the Nosler Ballistic Tip. The old Speer "Hot Core" 165 gr. BTSP was a dandy, as well.

Larry P. Happy 65th Birthday! Hard to believe that years ago we were just young'uns serving on T-II. Found a old photo of me in dungarees by the forward pan/tilt. Wonder were that young good luckin' kid went too?

My best to all. Glad everyone survived Turkey Day. I didn't even have to use duct tape on the grand kids!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 05:14:40 (ZULU)

Thanks for Info Everyone. Anyone shoot 165 BallisticT's to 1000? It's 6:00 and I'm off to kill the big one, only wife's not up to wish me luck. It' really works, so someone wish me luck before I quit hunting around 10:00 if you've got time. Superstition is a b***h. Probably won't do any good anyway. We've got a FULL moon so bright that I almost stayed after dark yesterday. It rose around 4:45 and set sometime just a little while ago. Moral conscience got to me though and I came home. Nice little 7 point played in front of stand for 30 minutes. I figured I'd let him get bigger, or save him for monica's first buck. He don't know how lucky he is. now if the neighbors will just let him grow too. I wish they would impose a 8pt/16in rule with 3 1/2yr old age exceptions for culling bad genes. Too much difficulty and too complicated for the bubbas around here according to the local warden. He did say he'd talk to the neighbors about our program though and see if he could get them to go along. I offered to plant high protien summer and winter food sources for them if they would. Maybe it'll help. We just had to start over in our program after losing a 5000 acre lease that we'd been running since '92. Some rich guys from Memphis got wind of the racks comming off it and leased it out from under us for, get this, $12 an acre for just hunting rights. I don't know bout you guys but $60 grand was too rich for our blood. Check the news, The new TN state non-typical was killed there last week. I hate non-typicals, but 51 points! IMHO still ugly, but as said by aristotile or someone could be sour grapes"

Gotta go. If I offended anyone sorry. I didn't have time to proof read this one for SC political correctness.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 12:28:09 (ZULU)

Jeff:

I tried running the 165g BT's at 800meters w/.308 Win, had issues with them going subsonic and starting to keyhole. It wasn't clear if driving them a little faster would have solved that issue.

(I say a *little* faster because I was already at max case capacity with Varget or one other powder). Muzzle velocity would have been around 2650 ft/sec. Switching to 155g Lapua Scenars permitted driving them faster, and they have a better ballistic coefficient.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 14:07:54 (ZULU)

Jeff,

I tried my 150NBTs at 1000 the last time I was at Oak Ridge. They hit the target reliably, but were key-holing (same load I said earlier). I've thought about trying the 165s, but never have. Not sure the extra mass would be enough: impossible to say without trying. One nice thing about the Noslers is the base of the jacket is considerably thicker than most designs. ERGO, the BULLET can stand up to higher pressures without deforming. This probably isn't much noticed by hunters, but if you're pushing them pretty hard, and trying to hit groundhog noses at 300-500 yds, you think about these things.

Rod, what you said about the 155 Scenars is what I was more inclined to once I started hearing about their slick BC. Never handled any; do they have a secant-ogive instead of Sierra's tangent? That's what is being said by many, of course you'd need a freekin' optical comparator to tell unless the handouts that come with them say. There are a LOT of guys lovin' the Scenars though, so LAPUA's doing something right.

Question, have any of you bums read Harold Vaughn's, Rifle Accuracy Facts? There's very little quantitative thinking on how rifle workout there (one of the reasons I like this bar so much), and I figured several of you would enjoy the book, or already have. I'm a mechanical designer by trade (when I'm not in uniform) and Vaugn got me looking at rifles from a machine design viewpoint. This makes things much clearer (for me) and exposes a lot of the rumors & fads for what they are.

'Lito, continued prayers for you & yours. Have no mercy. The crowd you're up against would only view it as weakness and turn on you. Sometimes people just force you to be brutal on them: this qualifies.

SSG Mac
Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 14:38:20 (ZULU)

>>>Larry P. Happy 65th Birthday! Hard to believe that years ago we were just young'uns serving on T-II. Found a old photo of me in dungarees by the forward pan/tilt. Wonder were that young good luckin' kid went too?<<<

Thanks! There aren't too many pictures of me on her... You really need to make one of the reunions... The next one is in April 2010 in D. C. in honor of the 50th anniversary of the "Deep" dive.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 14:47:32 (ZULU)

Wes.....your use of the word "dungarees" leads me to believe youse was a squid like me. I was one of them dumbass airedales, so forgive the question....what was the T-II? Just curious.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 15:51:53 (ZULU)

Chuck, Dungarees is a Naval Service term that us Jarheads also used in time gone by. I can remember the older "Salts" calling the Marine "utility" uniform "dungarees". That always confused the Army and Air Force, cause they used the term "fatigues" for that uniform and than "BDUs".

Hey Chuck, remember I told you before that us Marines were a department in the Naval Service, The "Men's Department." ;)

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 17:00:07 (ZULU)

Gents,

Charles H., Did four years enlisted Navy in '70-'74. Joined the Reserves while I finished college and then Took a commission in the Marine Corps. Retired in '94 as a Major.

T-II is Trieste II (DSV-1). The hull designation stood for Deep Submergence Vehicle number one. A earlier version of Trieste is the vehicle that made the dive to the bottom of the Marianas Trench during Project Nekton. The T-II version was only 20,000 foot capable. T-II was cutting edge technology and was refurbished at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in '74. I was assigned as a Navy Diver and Electrician's Mate 2nd Class (EM2/DV). Pretty high adventure for a 20 year old "kid". In '73 I made a dive to 13,500 ft and still have the Dive Certificate. It was the best of times...

Gave a class at University of Oregon on the T-II in '77. One of the prof's was an old friend and wanted his Oceanography Class to learn about her.

Have gotten to do some things few men ever get the chance to experience. THIS was one of them.

Charles, being an "Airdale" is pretty special too. At least you had the sense to know that "Everything that goes down does not always come up"...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 17:17:14 (ZULU)

March Madness In California

How about some greta F TR Matches? Anyone up for it? A few friends and I will be there to go against some of the best long range shooters around

FOLSOM SHOOTING CLUB INC.

SACRAMENTO VALLEY SHOOTING CENTER

SLOUGHHOUSE CALIFORNIA

March 2008 Summary

CANADIAN/AMERICAN MATCH: 4-9 March

Palma Rifle and “F” Class

Tues: Squadded practice – 300, 600, 900 and 1000 yds. (40 rounds)

Wed: Day 1 individual – 300, 500, 600 and 800 yds. (48 rounds)

Thur: 4 Man Team Match – 300, 600, 900 and 1000 yds. (48 rounds)

Fri: Day 2 individual – 300, 500, 600 and 900 yds. (48 rounds)

Sat: 4 Man Team Match – 300, 600, 900 and 1000 yds. (48 rounds)

Sun: Day 3 individual – 300, 500, 600 and 1000 yds. (48 rounds)

Total number of rounds – 280

LONG RANGE REGIONAL: 12-16 March

Palma Rifle and “F” Class

Wed: Squadded practice 800, 900 and 1000 yds. (55 rounds)

Thur: Folsom Club match Palma course of fire. (55 rounds)

Fri: 4 Man Team Match – Palma course of fire. (51 rounds)

Sat: Day 1 individual – Palma Match and 1000 yd match. (85 rounds)

Sun: Day 2 individual – Palma Match. (55 rounds)

Total number of rounds – 301

FOLSOM 1000 YARD CHAMPIONSHIP: 19-23 March

Any Rifle and “F” Class

Wed: Squadded practice – 1000 yds. (50 rounds)

Thur: Folsom Club match – 1000 yds. Any/any, any/iron and Palma . (90 rds)

Fri: 4 Man Team Match – 1000 yds. Any/any, any/iron and Palma. (66 rds)

Sat: Day 1 individual – 1000 yds. Any/any three strings. (90 rds)

Sun: Day 2 individual – 1000 yds. Any/iron three strings. (90 rds)

Total number of rounds – 386

For additional information contact:

Jim O’Connell Ed Eckhoff (F-Class)

1817 Chestnut St. 38868 Rd. 18

Alameda, CA 94501 Woodland, CA 95695

E-mail jso6br@aol.com E-mail eckran@mindspring.com

Letters of invitation and copies of the match programs will be distributed at the 2007 Canadian Nationals.

Match programs will be available on the club website sacvalley.org by the 10th of November 2007.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 17:26:52 (ZULU)

SSG Mac:

The Lapua Scenars are a VLD design. The Scenars are described as having a secant ogive.

.308 155g Scenar projectile has a published BC of .508

http://www.lapua.com/information/products/components/

.308 155g Sierra HPBT Match Palma Matchking has a published BC of .450

https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2155

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 19:07:24 (ZULU)

Wes, it was my job to make sure that not everything that went down came back up. Principally, Russian subs. I was Flight Engineer on the P3 Orion subchasers. Yeah, those were heady days. I don't miss the Navy all that much, but having the power levers to 20,000 shaft horsepower in your hands was a kick in the ass....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 20:12:42 (ZULU)

Thanks Rod and Mac for the info. I guess I'll have to come up with a load for hunting and a load for hole poking like everyone else. That's one good thing about the RUM, It shoots flat, and halls butt out to 1000 but it's just not as accurate.

Wes and Charles I haven't heard dungarees since my father passed in '98. He joined the Navy after AVG was turned over to the Army. He said he liked clean sheets. Finished WW II and then attended Memphis State then went back for Korea as an officer where he was injured and medically retired. Became friends with "John Dean" somewhere in there and later gave me my middle name. He told me I needed to go meet the man some day, and I regret to say that I never did. Strange, I just wrote this to Marius earlier today. Everyone I went to school with as a kid wore jeans, I wore dungarees and they didn't know what the heck I was talking about.

No wall hangers today so they all got to walk away.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 21:21:40 (ZULU)

Yeah Rod, I'd seen those figures, but BC is so sensitive to how you measure and calculate that I don't have very high confidence in comparing different manufacturer's numbers. Sierra has a good rep for being internally consistent, and producing numbers that fit the more common ballistics calculators pretty well. Lapua has a good rep too, and I'm sure they give the best information they have, but how comparable the figures are between the tw is a question mark in my mind.

Whatever the actual numbers, a lot of guys are getting enviable results with the Scenars, and I've wanted to try them too. Palma shooters especially like them, and they're running 308s.

SSG Mac
Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 22:35:23 (ZULU)

SSG Mac:

Concur on the vendor to vendor BC thing, only really sure way is to take them for a test drive :-)

The Lapuas are working for me, and I'm not trying to drive the heck out of them for velocity. My goal was a duplicate of the Lapua factory loading, I think I have acheived that. Canadian master distributor for Lapua is a local, and I get a club discount on the product. Since he is local I also don't have to pay shipping either. That makes the pricing very attractive.

Lapua rep says that if you drive the Scenars really hard that the groups will open up a bit.

Some folks are claiming that because of the enormous hollowpoint in the Scenars, that they actually work fairly well as a medium game bullet (for a product not purpose-designed). Probably a poor choice for game above the size of northern whitetail deer.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 23:17:05 (ZULU)

The Laupa 155 gr scenar in 30 cal is not a good hunting round (it does not open up at all)...it makes small holes. It is a good long range pill. I was advised by a couple posters on this site to push it with RL15 to around 2850 - 2900 fps and it sure does work good. The BC is pretty darn close. I use the cam that came with my Leupold M3 LR....the one labelled 190gr 300 WM...it tracks perfect out to 900.

medicjim
Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 23:49:59 (ZULU)

Finger,

>>>Hey Chuck, remember I told you before that us Marines were a department in the Naval Service, The "Men's Department." ;) <<<

Some of us call the Marines "Expendables..."

Sharon

(I actually have great respect for the Marines...)

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 02:11:54 (ZULU)

JarHeads, I read recently in the Army Times that the Marines memorizied the test given to detect TBI's on the Battle Field. Talk about resourcefull they memorized the words and responses for the short term moemory test. Seems someone got a hold of it and they all memorized it in advance to stay in the game. God Loves a Marine. Sure wish I woulda went with them instead of Army but had a good time there too.

Finger, I dont go into town unless I have to till New Years. Folks are nuts till then. I went to Bandera to order my wife a set of custom chinks. My Christmas shopping is pretty much done. Everything else I order on line so I don't have to mess with jackasses in town.

Dirty Steve.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 03:29:27 (ZULU)

Marines: The service of my father. Glad it wasn't mine, though. It wouldn't have been bad, I'm sure...but no way in hell could I have done the ride I had in the Army in any of the other services. For starters, the infantry-ranger-SF path--it would have been 03A to force recon, if and only if I could escape my assignment at the right time and place for a slot...then OCS with an associates and a helluva resume (army schools)--not likely anywhere else! Flight school? Doubtful...and to command for over 5 years by gaming the system? Not happenin! Naw....no regrets; my army career was the stuff of fiction looking back.

Geoff--that is why I do not brag on it---who'd believe all that shit?

I heard that the test was also out on Taji (aka Camp Cooke), with cav dudes playing the psychologists there as well.

Tomorrow I walk the rifle...the day after I revert to bow again.

Doc: 700 SHP turned down to 540SHP so the tranny doesn't explode, max allowed weight and TO weight often on equal terms, flying in the zero-margins danger zone of the flight envelope with pine cones in the skids, using goggles akin to flying with toilet paper rolls glued to your eyes, crashworthiness rating of an empty beer can, low-intertia rotors that allow an auto straight to the ground right now, and the BIG LIE of first in line for the Commanche RAH66 if we just deal with all that for a year or two...heheh; those were heady days!

Of course, now that I can look back objectively---are you kidding me??? Was I that dumb???

Joe M
Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 04:03:57 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

You were indeed fearless! On my very first flight in an operational squadron the instructor asked me how to tell if the bird was safe to fly. I stuttered and stammered around in circles before he finally told me the answer. He said,"You simply count the number of motors and divide by four. If the answer is less than one it's not safe to fly!" He was a very wise man. Like Charles I also liked shovin' throttles on Allison T-56's. The P-3 was a sweet bird; but my true love was the C-130.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 04:26:38 (ZULU)

Doc, come'on--fearless is knowing that there is danger and doing it anyway. "Dumb-as-dirt" is doing it cause you heard it is safe from someone who knew someone... And you should check out the newer J-model C130--crazy swooping six bladed props and fast as all hell. The vibration is different though---not like the lullaby hum from the four blades anymore. It's a freakin' sleep ruinin' buzz now.

Heard from Morgue tonight; all is well as he stands out on the far reaches defending civilization from the uncivilized asshats of AQ.

Keep him and all our servicemen in our prayers. And remember not to take life for granted as we sit with family during these holidays. Too many great Americans will not be so fortunate...

I am realizing how late it got....dang how time flies when you sit down with a knife collection and an oily stone....the alarm will piss me off for sure now:))

Joe M
Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 06:53:54 (ZULU)

Doc, Doc! Puh-leeze......how can you compare the Orion with a C130? that's like camparing a Dodge Ram pickup with a UPS truck.....although you CAN get anywhere in the world on a C130. P3's can only land where there's hot chow and a movie theater.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 15:00:36 (ZULU)

Charles,

That's where I always took the C-130's as well as the P-3's! Never did like the idea of liberty without cold beer and warm ladies.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 16:03:07 (ZULU)

Helicopters are the worst of all aircraft. If they don't get shot down, they often deposit one in places where unfriendly strangers will try to kill you - and then won't want to retrieve you from the clutches of durance vile. Those collections of parts flying in loose formations should be avoided if at all possible.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 16:46:30 (ZULU)

Yeah, like the PI.....Disneyworld for grownups. Only town I've ever been to where you have to wait in line at turnstiles just to go out in town! Of course, in those days, the beer coulda been warm and it wouldn't have mattered.

I'm in a bit of a snit today. Last weekend we were playing OPFOR against the Army at Camp Bullis. During the sniper ops/cover vs. concealment class, I put 15 blank rounds through the new Remington. When we got through, I just put it in the gun cabinet without cleaning it as I was bone-tired. When I went to clean it Wednesday night, my patches started coming out RED. I'm pissed....mostly at myself for being lazy. Who knew blanks were corrosive? Grrrr....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 17:15:47 (ZULU)

Doc & Charles 700 down to 540. What kinda engines? Sounds Like the Pratt and Whitney PT-6 20-41 series that we use on our ag planes. When we're loaded you ease stick foward to go down. You pull stick back to go down faster. Stays that way for first half of load. I flew a 510 Thrush with a PT-6 65 for a couple months one season. Never took off not fully loaded. Went to ferry it to get annual inspection in January after season. 20 degrees temp and no load. Before I got throttle 1/4 foward the thing was in the air and flying. It confused me then I had to think, OK, do I push it more or pull it back. I had to read torq guage to know what to do. I'd never gotten off the ground without first going full foward and eating up the entire runway.

I don't hear much about the Berger bullets from you guys, what's your opinions on them compared to the SMK's and Scenars other than costing more?

I remember someone in here being from Siloam AR. I had a guy land at my airport yesterday from there. He was headed to SC in a Champ that he had sold to someone there. He sideloaded the plane so hard when landing that he blew both main gear tires by ripping the valve stems out. I replaced both tubes for him, gassed him up, "12 gallons" and he went on his marry way at the freightening speed of 70 MPH.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 18:19:39 (ZULU)

No. They use the Allison T-56-14 engines, at a 100% rpm of 13,820 which is run through a planetary-type reduction gear box. Drops the rpm's down to 1020, to Hamilton Standard props. Engines run at 100% constantly, changing power settings changes the prop angle, which is sensed by the speed sensors and changes the fuel control setting, keeping them at 100%. Reliable as hell. I've landed them with chips lights on, still running smooth as silk; pulled the gearbox mag plug and found chunks of gears big enough to get part numbers off of....Those Allison/HamStandards have gotten my ass out of a couple of tight spots. But, I'm too old to go back to that life now. Too bad the private contract companies aren't using them, I'd sign up so fast....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 18:50:55 (ZULU)

Those are like the Garret engines on some ag planes. I've only flown one Garret so I'm not to familar with them. Great to fly but hell on ears on the ground with prop running at full throttle. The Pratt isn't actually connected to the prop so on the ground it is basicly just windmilling. It actually will windmill when parked with the engine not running if you don't tie it down and I have friends that have started their pratts with the prop still tied. It'll fire right up the only problem is that we tie the props to the exhaust and the exhaust cover/prop tie gets scorched. oh well wife needs computer.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 19:27:12 (ZULU)

Jeff:

Berger made their name in benchrest. If you can shoot to that level and you need another step up in accuracy then it could possibly be worth the extra money. Otherwise, probably not.

Also, Berger is publishing a BC of .472 for the .30 cal 155g VLD, that is less than the published value for the Lapua in the same weight (.508).

http://www.bergerbullets.com/long-range.htm

The Lapua should be sufficient for any non-BR long range usage.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 19:35:38 (ZULU)

Charles:

Blanks are often based on black powder :-(

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 19:39:40 (ZULU)

Jeff: Our down-tuned turbine was the Rolls-Royce Allison 250-C30R/3 in the R, or "SEP" upgrade package--which was the last iteration of the OH58D Kiowa Warrior that I flew. Think Jet Ranger with a soft-in-plane 4-blade rotor and a ball on top:)) The mast torque limits and tranny size limits meant that the engine was more than able to break something important--so the FADEC kept it from doing so, among other restrictions. Like Doc, the engine's power was electronically controlled, all we parasites did was alter the power settings to go up/ down/ slow/fast---the engine did whatever it needed to without further input. Failures: Sure--and this model failed to the high-side. You had to be quick on the manual throttle to prevent rotor overspeeds if this fails on the ground. Otherwise, it is merely an uncommanded climb---followed by some really, really micro adjustments with macro results to get back to solid ground. PITA...come to think about it--the whole damned aircraft was a PITA. Prior to this, I flew Hueys and Cobras. Those simple designs were as forgiving as they were robust. Sometimes, newer is NOT better!

And yes indeed--I fell for the RAH66 sales pitch to get into this "interim aircraft"---which is still the interim aircraft in use a dozen years later (I was told that the RAH would deliver a Squadron's worth by 96). In fact, its service began during Prime Chance (reflagging Kuwaiti tankers--back when we didn't bother talking to the Mullahs, we just shot at them)---20 years ago this year. Two decades for a short term fix--there's the Army for ya!

Ya know, the M24 is built on a long action Remmy so we could "upgrade" to 300WM someday. I've yet to see one. One answer from the supply guys: "Well, we have all these 308 barrels and ammo---why change that?"

Lesson: If the Army buys something cheap-assed with the statement "we will get something better down the road"---be aware that YOU will not live so long--and run away. Once one dime goes into the cheap--it is now the de facto capability unti it is worn the hell out--from too many complete overhauls at the depot. Your lifespan is often less---

My solo Huey was one year older than I was at the time--and I was as old as you can be without a waiver by just days:)) The first Duece and a half I drove had me by ten years...

Joe M
Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 23:18:14 (ZULU)

"The first Duece and a half I drove had me by ten years..."

HA! I've driven that truck!

SSG Mac
Monday, November 26, 2007, at 01:02:02 (ZULU)

Old airplanes: the last B-52H was produced on October 26th, 1962. So, all the BUFFs are older than nearly everyone in the crews flying them - and the Air Force proposes to keep them in service until at least 2040.

There are a significant number of DC-3s still in service. At least one company was in the business of converting them to turboprops. Those are old, old, airframes.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 01:26:05 (ZULU)

Lindy...

>"There are a significant number of DC-3s still in service. At least one company was in the business of converting them to turboprops. Those are old, old, airframes."<

There are enough companies making replacement parts for the DC-3, that you can build a new one from parts.

(Back to the grindstone)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 02:14:19 (ZULU)

ancient aircraft continued:

Canada is still running 1963 vintage Sea Kings...

"The Sea Kings (currently) require 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight, and they are unavailable for operations 40 per cent of the time."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/seaking.html

They are known as the "ancient" Sea Kings, the "geriatric" Sea Kings, the "venerable" Sea Kings. They have been called "flying coffins." Purchased with considerable fanfare by the federal government in 1963, when they turned heads with their impressive exploits, the Sea Kings are now a sick, aging fleet, with pieces literally falling out of the skies. Canada bought 41 of the single-rotor Sea Kings, technically known as the Sikorsky CH-124 Sea King. Twenty-eight of them remain in service, and those still flying are often hit by flameouts, engine stalls, generator failures and gearbox problems. Pilots have died flying them, falling into oceans, crashing into muskeg – more so the older they get. After the federal government renewed the bidding process in 1999 to replace the fleet, builders around the world jockeyed for position to win the contract.

In the end, Canada chose Sikorsky to replace the Sea Kings. In July 2004, newly appointed Defence Minister Bill Graham announced that Ottawa will spend $3.2 billion on 28 Sikorsky S-92 helicopters, to be known as Cyclones. The medium-lift utility helicopter was inspired by the design of the company's Black Hawk and Seahawk helicopters.

The Sea Kings were supposed to have been retired by 2000, but the air force prolonged their life by spending $80 million to keep them flying until 2005. The Sea Kings require 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight, and they are unavailable for operations 40 per cent of the time.

The government must now spend more money to keep the Sea Kings in the air. The contract for the new Sikorsky helicopters calls for the first air craft to be delivered on Nov. 30, 2008.

"The technologies on the aircraft are showing their age," said Col. Brian Akitt in December 2001. Akitt was the commanding officer of the remaining fleet of 28 Sea Kings based at Shearwater and Patricia Bay in British Columbia.

In their glory days, the Sea Kings were mighty impressive, a source of national pride. The Canadians who operated them were esteemed around the world as inventive, brilliant and daring.

The helicopters were designed – albeit with 1950s technology – primarily as submarine-hunters. Canadian navy pilots pioneered dazzling new anti-submarine techniques, with the Sea King as much a star as the pilots flying them.

The Sea Kings are big, weighing nearly nine tonnes, and conventional military wisdom was aircraft carriers could provide the only suitable platforms for them. It was also conventional wisdom that they could not work at night. The Canadians experimented with smaller ships as platforms for the Sea Kings, giving them greater flexibility, and allowing them to hunt subs with sonar, radar and torpedoes day and night.

When the Canadians suggested Sea Kings could be launched and land on a destroyer, navies reacted by calling them "crazy Canucks." But they made it work, inventing a "hauldown" technique – the Canadians nicknamed it the "beartrap" – essentially a vertical winch that centred the Sea King over the destroyer – often heaving in the raucous North Atlantic – and the chopper pilot then flew down the hauldown and landed on a rolling surface about the size of a double-car driveway.

Lee Myrhaugen, a former air force colonel who logged 4,000 hours aboard Sea Kings, told John Ward of the Canadian Press, "The rest of the world stood back, awestruck with the notion of putting such a large helicopter aboard such a relatively small ship."

The first ship outfitted this way was HMCS Sauguenay, a 2,263-ton St.-Laurent-class destroyer escort, in 1967.

The sad state of Canada's Sea Kings reflects as much political intrigue and bungling as anything to do with helicopter design, engineering and performance. Their working life simply has been extended embarrassingly beyond their capabilities. The Sea Kings may be dangerous now, but they have been workhorses, saving lives at sea and serving around the world in Somalia, the Persian Gulf and Adriatric Sea, and in the fall of 1999 transporting troops and supplies in East Timor.

The Tories tried to buy new helicopters in the early 1990s, after a decade of severe military cost-cutting and, no small matter, the end of the Cold War. In 1992, the Tories announced they would spend $4.8 billion to buy 50 EH-101 helicopters from the Anglo-Italian consortium European Helicopter Industries Ltd. These were state-of-the-art choppers, the best in the world.

Then came the 1993 federal election campaign, when Jean Chrétien and his Liberals attacked the Tory plan as wasteful, calling the EH-101 a "Cadillac" helicopter. When the Liberals won and Chrétien became prime minister one of his first acts was to scrap the Tory deal, an act that cost the Canadian government nearly $500 million in cancellation fees.

But Chrétien's government, and that of Prime Minister Paul Martin after him, faced mounting pressure from the military to replace the Sea Kings.

More than a decade after the Tories announced the purchase of 50 EH-101s, the Liberals announced their more modest purchase of 28 S-92s from Sikorsky. Defence Minister Bill Graham called the Cyclones, "the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians."

Many in the military, though, said they would have preferred the EH-101 Cormorants to replace the Sea Kings. The Canadian Forces purchased 15 Cormorants in 1998 to replace the twin-rotor Labrador helicopters in search-and-rescue missions. Some in the military said having the same model for its maritime fleet would have made it easier to train technicians, air crews and maintenance workers.

The glory days of the Sea Kings are in the distant past, yesterday's heroes, now burdened more with a reputation for embarrassing crashes than for saving lives or finding submarines.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 04:01:28 (ZULU)

Joe F'n hillarious. There are a lot of similarities in the way the turbines in the helo and some of the Turbine Ag engines work though. With fuel control, over speed and such. I'm going to a PT-6 41 or 34 if I get what I'm asking for next year. Hopefully the -41 for the more horsepower. I keep telling the boss I can always pull it back but if I need it to get off the ground and ain't got it I ain't got it. He's thinking Garrett TPE-331 cause of the money savings in initial cost, but everyone he talks to explains to him pay now or pay later. Garrett turbines average almost twice as much in hot section inspections, which come about every 3-4 years. They have a recomended time but no one goes by it on either engine cause it'd be in ther shop every two years, if not sooner. Anything is better than the P&W 1340 & 985's radials that i've got about 6000 hrs in. The last one of those was built around WW II. I started to get My Multi in a DC-3 at Americas GA. That way I'd have the type rating too. It was at a time when I thought I might do cargo instead of dusting. The guy was going to do it for free while he was making cargo runs, but if I took his offer I would have to fly for him for a year and I had my first dusting seat already lined up. Didn't want to miss it cause the first one is nearly impossible to get. He also had some of the turbine conversionsalong with some turbine box cars.

This is plane I spent 11 years in right after a paint job 1962 model Gruman Ag Cat. A good friend of mine, Dick Reade, who was in the business way back then talked Gruman out of naming it the "grasshopper" and instead named it the Ag Cat to carry on the tradition of Cat names from their WW II fighters. When this one was built it initally had no canopy, that was added later. the serial # is 123. Coincidentally, my 1950 harley is 10123, and the last four of my phone number are 1230.

http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Crop%20Dusting%20and%20Planes/BeautifulYankee.jpg

This is what I flew for a year before downgrading to a Radial 301 Air Tractor to get a job back here in TN.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Crop%20Dusting%20and%20Planes/502leftturn.jpg

I don't know if the service will let you look at the rest of the albums but some more of the junk I flew is there. I especially like the black sheep screwing the boll weevil tail insignia on our cessna's. Boll Weevil Eradication called our flying service the "Black Sheep"

Lito continuing prayers and good luck. Fight the good fight.

Jeff C
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 15:48:51 (ZULU)

When I was in my last year in the Army, flying as a flight medic, one of our UH 1D's was called "Patches". She had been shot up so bad in 'nam there were "patches" all over her! The log books we had went back to 1961!! I was 11 years old when she first saw duty. Oh it was in 1989 when I was flying in her and she was probably one of the best aircraft we had!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 19:38:49 (ZULU)

Hey,

I wanted to thank all of you knowledgeable folk out there. I had my first successful hunt for Pronghorn Antelope in New Mexico. A large part of it was due to reading all the hints and arguments ;) about technique, equipment, etc. I was using a rifle based on an old shot-out Coltsman in 30'06. The bbl was replaced with a Douglas Match, Bedded and Floated. Leupold 3/4 mil dot 4.5-14x40 scope. Harris bipod, but I also made one of those camera tripod rests in case the brush was thick and high. The rifle ended up weighing about 10 lbs (though I wish it were 14.1 since I'm pretty lightly built). The big thing was the practice which I enjoyed almost as much as the hunt itself. Kept a cold shot target and developed a mind-set. The antelope was taken at 285 yds (by laser rangefinder) and pretty much right where I wanted it. 168 gr X-bullet (factory). Disintegrated the top half of the heart which is pretty darned big. The whole thing felt like practice at the ranges. I cranked the action in mid-recoil and re-engaged the target without thinking. My hunting partner, a guy who was telling me all sorts of 'safari' stories of his, got Buck Fever and took 5-6 shots with his .270 before hitting his antelope in the hindquarters.

Many thanks again for the success of this 'operation!'

Kathy S.

p.s. grass fed Pronghorn is pretty good!

Kathy4895
Pasadena, CA, USA - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 22:13:14 (ZULU)

Ms. Kathy: Heheheheh. Now that is a good story! Shot it in the hind end...after all that lead-up 'bout the great white hunter; LMAO. Rest assured that to instill doubt is bad---to do so in front of the fairer sex, after she has proven herself his better---well; this will leave a mark on his ego for keeps. Hahahaha.

Nice shot, BTW. Only a few appreciate that an actual 200+ shot is difficult on game, near 300 is even more so. My neighbors will swear that they make them all day long--while never seeing a shot past 75 yards. It is those shots that they have a 50/50 PK, while once made, these 50 yd-75yd shots becomes 200+ in the re-telling. And we're talking animals twice the size of prongs. Cracks me up:))

Good on ya...

Joe M
Monday, November 26, 2007, at 22:25:27 (ZULU)

Joe:

I've worked a few hunter "sight-in" events at a known-distance range facility in the past. It's conducted at 100 yards. Some of the fellows who show up think they're shooting at 200 yards until you point out the distance markers. Hmmmm....

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 23:12:35 (ZULU)

Kathy ma'am...Good Shooting!

Ok..it is getting to be that time of the year again..New Years is fast approaching. Who is up for a New Years Day shoot this year? I promise to try to keep from falling out like I did last year! Geez..hospitals.....

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 00:20:22 (ZULU)

Ms. Kathy,

Joe is right. That guy's ego is scarred for life. Good shootin'.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 05:41:23 (ZULU)

Joe M

I plan on heading your way around the 12th, i'll bring that chunk of steel with me. I've got to make a run to the Twins then down to Decorah Ia.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 10:17:29 (ZULU)

Kathy,

Start calling him "Buttshot".

I had a friend that the boss had hired to help me when I was running a small cow outfit in Colorado. We'd take my lever guns with us when we were horseback, and when we were riding home after moving some cows, we'd try to deplete the rabbit population.(folks don't realise how much grass the little bastards eat!)

He was a good old boy, kinda odd, but a good friend. Grew up ranching and guiding. Couldn't shoot for shit. No matter the distance, he'd hit a rabbit in the ass. Didn't matter if it was 50 yards or 10 feet. I was amazed at his ability. Sitting, running, whatever, they got a lead suppository. Hence, the name.

Well, anyway, after I'd been calling him "Buttshot" for a coupla weeks, and riding him pretty hard about it, we were riding along, and I spotted a rabbit on a little sidehill, right next to the trail. So close I coulda barrel poked him to death. Well, I pulled my rifle out, handed it to Buttshot, and backed my horse up. Asked him, "Ya think you can hit him at this range?". He takes REAL CAREFUL AIM, probably took 20 seconds, finally, he shoots the bunny. Right in the head. He's thinking, "Hey, I broke my slump!". Well, ya know how a headshot animal will sometimes stiffen up, and stick their legs straight out after you shoot them? The rabbit stood up, and I swear it looked right AT ole Buttshot! He damn near dropped my rifle, and I nearly fell off my horse, I was laughing so hard. He shot him again.

The look on his face was PRICELESS!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 15:55:12 (ZULU)

Lito,

Click my name. This may be of some interest to you. Dunno. Hope it helps.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 16:03:54 (ZULU)

Hi again!

You are all real gentlemen. Despite all my practice and studying, I prepared myself in case the rooster windvane on the barn or a cow fell over somewhere off to the 3 o'clock, I would have immediately pretended to snap chewing gum, twirl some of my hair then giggle!

I tried to be really nice to my friend but I think just nothing helped...especially after we got back to the camp and everyone else there was asking "Who started the war???"

Thanks again for all your kind comments!

Kathy

Kathy4895
Pasadena, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 16:36:57 (ZULU)

Some friends tell a story where, on an elk hunt, one of the guys opens his gun case to discover he brought a 870 Wingmaster shotgun instead of a rifle. Now, years later, every hunt he's asked, "Hey, Scott, did you bring the 870 Elk-Master this year?".

Tough crowd....

Duman
Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 16:45:26 (ZULU)

Hey all.

I have been lurking around here for several years now. Loads of great info here.

I am thinking of getting into Executive protection. Was looking for a good school. I have been looking at mainly ESI, and a company in britain and south africa called "psdtraining" does anyone know anything about eather and if you do, wich one would you recommend?

Thanks.

Craig
Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 16:57:57 (ZULU)

Craig, not sure country your in but here in US I went to Steele Foundations school. ITG is what they call it. Follows State Department Guidlines and ran well. Might look at that. They travel around US giving classes. Then they will help get you in industry if you want once you Grad. I get constant emails with jobs two years later sent to me. Plus very nice folks. Take a look at them.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 19:00:48 (ZULU)

Craig: The last, absolutely last thing I would consider doing is PSD work. On the one hand, if you NEED to stay alive, that I can do for you easily--but life just changed significantly for you as the principal; on the other--some of these clowns need to be out in the public as a matter of course. Complicates things. The only way I'd find myself in that line of work is if I start the firm and hire you to go play:)) Now, as for classes---that all depends on where you want to work this gig: principles apply to all environs for sure--but you might want to look at who you want to work for before buying yourself a "too specialized" course. Your post doesn't spell out your creds or comfort levels with various arms---those things are the cart to put before this horse in any case. I've seen outfits in Iraq/ Stan doing this thing using 416s with S&B scopes, FALs, MP5s of all flavors, M4s, SAWs, RPKs, RPDs, Glocks, 1911s, HiPowers, Berretas older than me, AKs, hell--you name it:)

In other words: PSD employers use a certain group of "backgrounds" as prereqs---then merging the skills the operator brings on board to a PSD is relatively simple, and the bigger groups run their own mandatory schools for specific TTPs. The underlying necessity is that you know how to shoot well in crazy-assed situations, that you know tactics 101 terms and meanings (react "x" when "x" is asked), that you proven yourself in a similar line of work once before (the old "now is no time to learn you freeze when shot at" test is already done). I dunno from your post where you stand on experience (unless your name is Smith and we both attended OCS in 91)...if you BTDT, I mean no disrespect! Hard to tell from one post.

Yes, I am trying to discourage you. If you found this place and feel comfortable here--you are 99.9% likely to be a good guy. I wouldn't wish routine PSD on my dog's fleas. If you are bound and determined--then ensure that you get on a mission that allows the PSD team leader to set the travel plans, agendas, team composition to mission, etc. That minimizes the craziness somewhat. State weenies allow this to a minor degree, and some of the reconstruction outfits allow this to larger degrees---although you can and likely would find yourself undermanned out in la-la land defending an indefensibly large site while work is ongoing.

Naw, for every "good" mission some of the guys I know worked--they had 4 more that scared them silly---read: Stupid. I love "luck" as much as anyone---but relying on it is no way to live. I saw these outfits doing that more than anyone else over in the sandbox.

To each his own though. Find WHO you want to work for, then find out how to qualify for that specific gig. That will simplify your search for training, without wasting any money on the wrong schools.

Joe M
Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 19:06:01 (ZULU)

What do you guys think?

I was feeling a bit depressed the other day, so I

called Lifeline.

Like everything else in this country, it had been

outsourced and I was put through to a call center in

Pakistan.

I explained that I was feeling suicidal.

They were very excited at this news and wanted to

know if I could drive a truck.

;)

Mike, right on about ITG Dave Johnson is top shelf. The rest of Steele you can have LOL

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 19:14:16 (ZULU)

Jim, Dave is a guy you instantly know will hold his end of the log. One of the newer guys is a frend of Rick B's and GTG also. I liked all the guys they had. Also they had best quick combat first aide class I have taken because guys just cut out BS and showed how to get it done.

All in all very good experience.

Now of course when they had us dress in our own very nice suits and ties and had pretend protesters throw real eggs at us, a few guys running program got quickly away from me because I was going to put real hurt on them. LOL

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 20:43:17 (ZULU)

Mike, That sounds like Mikey B. from here in San Antonio. Rick was his team Sgt in Panama. Mike was with me in Haiti and one of the most professional dudes in the business. He came and saw my broke ass in the hospital last month.

Do you also know Mark M.? He just put his training company together with Dave's. Should be a good deal.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 21:10:00 (ZULU)

Finger...

>"What do you guys think? I was feeling a bit depressed the other day, so I called Lifeline. Like everything else in this country, it had been outsourced and I was put through to a call center in Pakistan. I explained that I was feeling suicidal. They were very excited at this news and wanted to know if I could drive a truck.;)"<

I laughed so loud, that my neighbor called and asked if I was all right.

Thanks, I needed that!

'lito (back to the files)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 21:12:58 (ZULU)

Jim, Mikey is one of the main guys I am talking about for sure. Wish I could have worked some with him. He was excellent instructor and funny. He would not give up on me that my knees no longer bent certain ways with all the hardware in them and sometimes I just am a bigger target. LOL

Dont know the other man that I can remember. Have not talked with Dave in a long time. If you get to talk to him aks him how to do angle shooting? I spent five minutes explaining it to him and he said he finally got it.

Those guys spoke so highly of you, your on my list to hopefully meet and share beer and steak with.

Dont you think life is good when we get to meet some real good men?

Catman, deep breaths brother. We are all with you.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 22:03:12 (ZULU)

Aww, shit, Finger! You damn near killed me that time. "wanted to know if I could drive a truck..." jeez, I can harldy type....

yer killing me. Ahhhh. I ain't had my belly fat moving like that in a long, long time.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 05:51:32 (ZULU)

Have some fun- RAF Dropmaster game

http://www.rafcareers.com/altitude/games/dz-game/dzgame.cfm

Gary Kaney
NW, ILL, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 10:11:03 (ZULU)

My mistake.

There sould be an underscore between dz_game.

At 4 o clock in morning my brain sometimes isn't fully engaged.

Gary Kaney
N, ILL, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 10:23:59 (ZULU)

Hey Gents,

was reading around and got linked to the Brady machine... saw this and wanted to pass on the link since it was of concern. I don't know if anyone else has heard of this but it is discussing a bill that was introduced by by Finestein about regulating 50 cal weapons and ANY other rifle that fires a military type cartridge...

Back to lurking

Morgue

http://www.bradycampaign.org/ler/50_caliber/

Mourge
Overseas, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 11:28:02 (ZULU)

Morgue,

According to this link that bill is dead.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-935

Cheers & WY6,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 13:49:02 (ZULU)

Doc,

You are the man... I didn't think to try to track down via a gov site. I read that and thought DAM... should maybe mention it to the like minded...

of course now I have to start thinking about responsible spending... instead of the buy it while its HOTT and available thought process I was getting ready to use BWG...

I was just starting to think... a couple of Uppers... a couple misc short sticks... a couple of misc long ones... and a tad wee bit of ammo... LOL... oh well... maybe next time <wink>

Joe M.

LOL... trying to get me to set up your nieces... LOL... do you really think they would go for that? BWG

Sharp

Do you ever check your email?

Moore

You still lurking out there? how have things been. Drop me a line sometime

Anyways Gents... Sorry about the false Alarm... you would think the alarmists at the Brady site would atleast update their website...sheesh...

Ya'll take care...

Back to lurking

Morgue out

Oh and gents... anybody happen to have that great picture that was floating around a while back of the barn COVERED in something like 200 or so yote skins... I can't seem to find it and I so want to post it at a friends site... BWG...

Mourge
Overseas, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 14:30:06 (ZULU)

Hey Morgue, I have that photo of the coyote covered barn.

Send me an email at johnhugdahl AT centurytel.net and I'll send it to you. I'll also post it in the hunting section on Sniper's Hide if you want to pluck it off there.

John

John
WI, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 14:57:26 (ZULU)

Thanks Mike I will be checking them out.

Joe I used to post on here about eight years ago, loved this board used the name "partison" back then. Soo much info On here, and inteligent people to converse with. I quit becoue of problems with my X. blah blah whine whine. he he.

On the PSD/bodyguard training. What I have against me is no LE or Military Background so that limits me doing any PSD work right there, wich is fine. Have a buddy (my Former kickboxing instructor). who is a captain in the Danish Military who told me pretty much the same as you did on it all.

Some background on me.

I am Currently a Dirt working contractor and contract out on wildland fires here in Montana in the summers as well.

But Im missing where I need to be. I used to do alot of streetfighting, then I got into kickboxing and submission wich leveld me out.

On firearms I competed in Bullsye pistol. Have shot alot of siloute and thousand yard.

Lifetime Rifle/Shotgun/Archery hunter.

I have shot just about everything a civy can get there hands on short of Full auto or gernade launchers. So I can Adapt easily there.

Basically I am good with my hands and guns, have been blessed to meet some great real world operator's and to practice with them.

SO I need to get into a profession where what I feel my true talent lay. so Thus the Executive protection at least thats the way it looks now.

I also have a fair amount of Oversea's travel experience I think that helps me as well.

Any Direction you guys can turn me would be great, IM open and here to learn.

Craig
Anaconda, Mt, USA - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 17:05:37 (ZULU)

Here ya go Morque.

(click)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 00:46:55 (ZULU)

Craig- the vast majority of PSD work is boredom cubed. Then there's the principals and their families. Some are great, some are not, many family members are highly resentful of the restrictions, some find it most amusing to pick on the hired help. Some have a predatory interest in the hired help.

JoeM is right on the money about the importance of the Team Leader. You don't have to like the principal, or his/her family, but it helps if they don't treat you like a chained dog. Remember, you'll be up before they are and you don't sack out till they do-plus there's the night watch:)

You might check with Kobetz & Associates about training. However, I think you'll find that in most such employment, your standards of dress, decorous demeanor and table manners are more highly regarded than the physical skills you mention.

Your post seems to indicate you're interested in overseas work in areas that virtually require recent prior military experience. Most ethical outfits wouldn't employ you there, they don't need the casualty. Mike & Finger can speak to this area far better than I.

WR Moore
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 02:55:34 (ZULU)

Query for those with statistical experience:

What sample size is required to get a valid idea of muzzle velocity loss per inch barrel length when you must use different barrels to measure velocity? IOW, you have velocities from 7.5, 10, 11.5, 14.5, 16, 18 and 20" barrels, however they are different barrels that obviously have different dimensions, thus generate different velocities independant of the issue of barrel length. So what sample size is required to iron out this variance to a reasonable degree? S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 05:36:49 (ZULU)

KenM-20 trials are generally regarded as bare minimum to minimize random chance significantly affecting the validity of the results.

If you recall, even the FBI didn't have the budget for 20 trials of each ammo sample in their pistol bullet tests. Soooooooo, just how much confidence do you want (can you afford) in your statistical sample?

WR Moore
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 11:26:28 (ZULU)

Ken M: Five at each length should do it. Eight should be more than plenty. Send me the data and I'll use regression to fit a model to it.

CDC'
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 12:05:49 (ZULU)

Ken M, CDC',

If it's not too much trouble, would you post the results?

Ken M, what flavor of chronograph will you be using?

Thanks.

Duman
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 15:47:04 (ZULU)

Good christmas gift. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 18:07:12 (ZULU)

Craig: Well, welcome back! You "pre-date" me online here--I arrived in late 01 or so. I started posting, after catching up as much as i could on archives, several months later in early 02. My wife bought me a M21 to remind me that I wasn't always the dreaded commander of a recruiting company...which brings me to another idea:

The services have added several years to the max age for joining. The army in particular has a program right up your ally: Special Forces Assessions right off the street. It is a tough road, but in the end you will have PLDC, BNCOC, SGT (E5) paygrade and likely in a promotable status to staff sergeant, a language rating, SERE fun and games, a helluva skillset in one of the specialties (medics often go straight into PA programs with little pre-reqs with most of the course work credited thru training), and, more to the point: Plenty of experience to fall back on. SGT/ E5 pay is (monthly) is $1977, jump pay is $150 (HALO is $225), HFP (war) is $225, Dive Pay is $340 (if you go here), chow allowances is $279, and housing kickers are between 500-800, basic rate (depending on marital status) PLUS whatever the COLA rate is in the area you are stationed (as an E4, I got $1900 in Honolulu in 84!)---so, low pay? Maybe...but this is cash--the healthcare, dental, life insurance ($400K) is negligable cost or free, and if deployed--you ain't got a single cost in the world except personal toys. That is $3485 monthly for a non-diver, deployed, basic BHA rates (no COLA adjustments)---which is also tax free while overseas getting some shooting in:)) You can also qualify for pro-pay in language too--varies on the language and skill level--and not added in. Theres a few other pays I got while deployed--but i dunno why or what they were (free money? you betcha). It goes up with every budget cycle, and every two years for longevity, and with promotions--which come fast as hell in SF.

Now none of this includes bonuses--which is usually 20K for the SF contract, and another 20K if you ship immediately at different points in the year. That offsets the pay loss while in initial training phases (I think as an E4)--with no pro-pays until after starting airborne school.

There's also the Rangers and SEALs to look into. Marines will offer you Marine, One each. But if that is your gig, they have interesting units to aspire to thru merit alone. Best to get your desires in contract though---explicitly in contract language. No "don't worry, you can volunteer once you get there" bullshit that they WILL try on applicants to fill vacancies on the needs of the service. FWIW, unless it is in your contract--the machine owns your ass---your wants be damned. Caveat Emptor.

Now if i could only get this thru to the boy:)) Not the SF part---I believe that maturity is a key ingrediant for this program regardless of the stated parameters. A boy needs an Airborne Infantry gig to get prepared for the autonomy of SF life. But a man with some life under his belt is a great candidate. Oh, and the GI bill is getting better and better---as well as state programs locally run (like mine).

If money is a limiting factor---check it out deeper---money is not bad--especially with the bonuses. Hit me offline and i will ruin your day with what I make now--doing absolutely nothing or what I please. And what I made for the last five years in service...well, that too might surprise you. SF guys are getting 100K bonuses for staying extra past 20 years too.

It is probably more viable a path than many realize.

And finally: Retirement kicks serious ass!!!

Joe M
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 21:08:26 (ZULU)

I've got a quick question? I've heard a lot of loads from you guys and noticed that no one has mentioned the Silver Scenars, only the regular Scenars. Has anyone tried them, and if so, what were the results? Actually, I just thought of another question. Has anyone shot any deer with Scenars? If so, what were those results? Damn that's four questions.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 04:53:16 (ZULU)

Another indication that it's time to hang up the Sam Browne and head off to greener pastures.....I spent an hour listening to some meathead upset because his neighbor put cat shit on his porch. He couldn't grasp that it was HIS fault, since his cats were shitting in the neighbor's kids' playbox.....and I had to go answer a SGT's complaint for the aforementioned catshit caper. Sheesh. DynCorp, ArmorGroup, SOMEBODY save me.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 05:04:08 (ZULU)

Thanks, I have not collected the data yet, I was looking to see how large a project it would be, but I think this is do-able, will report back when the info is collected.

I have a PACT Professional that I sort of inherited. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 06:17:05 (ZULU)

Cyber wars and the West

(Radical Islamists)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_gillespie/2007/11/cyber_wars_and_the_west_1.html

or click my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 11:59:06 (ZULU)

JC:

I'm using the 155g Silver Jacket Scenars in .308 Win. Work fine for me.

No personal experience with them on game.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 12:01:28 (ZULU)

Jeff - I've seen one deer hit with a .308 155 gr scenar. The damage was not extensive and the wound channel very narrow. I've fired a large number of 123 gr scenars in 6.5mm and find them to be very good at penetration, not expanding.

In short, my very limited case studies would suggest they are not a good hunting projectile if you want humane kills.

Note - I cannot explain why the scenars don't tumble like most very long bullets at high impact velocity. Maybe they have thicker jackets??

medicjim
Friday, November 30, 2007, at 13:51:48 (ZULU)

Anyone have a good load for .30-06 using 165 gr. grand slams using IMR 4064?

Also, anyone hunt with Hornady A-max bullets? I've heard they worked really well, and I've heard they're for targets, only.

I've got a box of 155 gr. A-maxes I was gonna load up, and saw that I'd written some loads on the inside flap of the box. Do these sound okay to you guys? BTW, I'm not sure where I got these numbers, and have NOT tried these loads.

IMR 4064 C.O.L. 3.230

Grains FPS

---------------

44.2 2500

46.1 2600

47.9 2700

49.8 2800

51.7 2900

53.6 3000

What's your most accurate load with this powder/bullet combo?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 15:59:08 (ZULU)

Travis I have a friend who swears by Grandslams on Elk, He shoots 180grn bullets. No Idea what powder he used.

Joe M thanks for the welcome back, I only see a handfull of names on here I reconize, Mike M and Lito.

I have looked into the military but I also do realestate investing as well soo not sure I can take much of a pay cut to start out. If I could hang in there ya the pay is great. Have a Cousin who just retired as a Leutanant Comander from the Coast Guard, swears he never made that much but what he owns says other wise.

However Military and Police seems to open all the doors that I need so at some point when I get finances straightend out I will be looking at one or the other. Times going fast IM already 36 arrggg.

Looking at options and Appreciate the feedback.

Craig
Anaconda, Mt, USA - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 20:11:43 (ZULU)

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