Sniper Country Duty Roster

Strange thing just happened. I was going through some old cans of ammo I've had for a long time. I guess I've had some of it for too long. I ran across a can of Lake City Match from 1970-71. Does anyone know if the primers were corrosive from back then, or was that just on the commy ammo.

Jefff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, Great USofA - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 01:06:11 (ZULU)

The last corrosive primers used in US military small arms ammo would have been in the early fifties.

John
WI, - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 01:24:48 (ZULU)

Tony,

Could have saved you some money. Unless you just wanted the Smiths. In my kimber I carry 1 in chamber, 8 in mag in pistol, and my 2 extra mags are 10 round Chip Mc's. They look like crop sticking out of the bottom of the gun but they look fine in the mag holster. How many rounds do you need. Pistols are only to be used till you can get to your long gun anyway. Also, I'm not a Glock fan or anything but that was dept isue for a while. The triggers are better than the Smith except for the first shot. After that you dont have to let the Glock trigger go all the way forward to reset. Think it's called rolling trigger.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 01:43:46 (ZULU)

Thanks John. I thought so but wasn't sure. Now I've got a lot more rounds to have fun with.

Sorry for the multiple posts guys.

Jeff Cooper
Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 01:46:49 (ZULU)

Robotic soldiers

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/columnists/story.html?id=e4b38174-fd11-449a-935d-81b6bc889ca9

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 02:21:01 (ZULU)

Ken M: Email inbound with info. Better late than never; my excuse involves a pirate, an indian princess and a purple unicorn.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20071101/D8SKLD7G0.html

(Click name)

Man, I really ought to write that book! What is described in this article is merely the tip of the smallest iceberg in a cluster of 'bergs.

Kimber question: Longmaster classic 84M in 308, almost NIB for $799 caught my eye. The website (http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/84m/longmasterclassic.php) lists the barrel twist as 1:9--assumed that is for the 223 version. Anyone know what the 308 twist is for these (their "tactical line is 1:12)--and is there any reason to avoid buying this thing?

Joe M
Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 07:44:19 (ZULU)

Joe,

You can't afford it. Your wife just bought new horses in every available color, with an entire wardrobe of sleazy sleepers for each one!

Also-on the AR thing, since you can use a .223 AR to build a 9mm, why not get the .308 lower (or bigger, say .338) and put in a magazine block like you'd do with the .223/9? That way, I could just get an upper in every caliber I want, except for .50.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 15:03:41 (ZULU)

Joe 1 in 9 according to steve in the custom shop. It sounds a little slow to me and I didn't question Him why so slow. I've heard great things about it. Fit and finish like it came from the custom shop. Sub MOA from the factory in a hunting rifle is what I heard, which sounds great to me, especially after my new winchester. I've worked with them since thier introducion of the ill fated double stack 45 they had 10 years ago. My machinist, thier gunsmiths, and myself tried to get that thing to run reliably enough to get through an ISPC matchs withput misfeeds and never could. I ended up shooting for PARA in competition and carried Kimber single stacks ever since. Thier single stacks are the top in my opinion without going to Les Baer, King, or Wilson, which I could do, but in my opinion don't see any need to do. My current Eclipse Pro II can out shoot me, and not bragging, but I've kept my A ranking without pratice for years only shooting enough matches to get in the necissary qualifiers. Kimber is a great company.Sugested retail is over $1100 so $799 should be a pretty good price. I figure most of the stores will have them around $900. I do know if you have problems you won't have to deal with the run around of a huge company to get them taken care of. I'm kinda glad you brought them up cause it reminded me of another company to look at for my next small hunting rifle and I'll probably go with them. It'll be a stainless w/composite stock because I deer hunt Nov. Dec. Jan. every day rain, snow, sleet, or shime just like the post office. The walnut furniture on the model you are talking about sure does look pretty but I just couldn't bring my self to maring it up. If I got wood It'd end up sitting in the safe next to my fathers Browning '06. In my opinion that'd be a waste of what a hunting rifle was ment to do. Kinda like setting your pretty new tripod stand up in the back yard just to practice shooting out of it. "I have a buddy that has done just that, for worry that if he puts it in the field it'll get stolen, rediculus"

Anyway I was thinking about buying a new Encore barrel for in .308 to get rid of all my new found match ammo. Now I may get a Kimber if I can sneak it by my wife. Barrels are an easy sneak. The only 308 I have is in a pistol & it eats my middle left finger on every shot due to my strange grip and trigger pull. "I use both index fingers on shots over 100yds due to pulling to right. And, no I'm not jerking, It's just that pistols pull off a lot more noticably than rifles." I can't get my encore trigger down below 36oz like I'd like it to be. If anyone has a how to on that one please put it in the how to section.

Oh well, sorry guys, guess I've written enough. This isn't my personal blog. Maybe I'll have to get one of those too one day.

Jeff Coper
Gadsden, TN , Great USofA - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 16:37:06 (ZULU)

I was pokin' around in a box, lookin for something and came across a new unfired ".244 Rem" case.

I bought those cases new...

... Man, do I feel old! :(

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 17:48:33 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Have your buddy look into cryptonite cables(click my name). The guy that sold me my first one worked in a bike shop, and told me that he tried to cut one for about an hour, and couldn't get through it. They make fat ones for motorcycles , cables for bicycles, disc locks that go on brakes, and, my favorite, the 30 footers(http://www.kryptonitelock.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?cid=1000&scid=1001&pid=1126). Good enough to secure a job box to a concrete column on a jobsite, or to wrap around the back axle of a Ford Ranger and around a large tree.

Should do for securing a deer stand to a tree or 10 feet of 1" sucker sucker rod driven into the ground with an eye welded into it.

The funniest part about him refusing to take it out in the field is, if you asked him why he practices from a stand, he'd probably give you the line about "practice like you play".

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 20:02:00 (ZULU)

Taken from another site. An interesting read about the 82nd Airborne. http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12233

HDR
OK, - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 20:25:06 (ZULU)

Lito Know What you mean....70-71 LCA match. I haven't had them since new, but I have had them for a while. Seems like yesterday that I was using the young dumb and stupid excuse. It's been 25 years since I used it.

Travis haven't thought about Kryptonite, but he and I both have motorcycle locks from them for our Harleys. My '50 doesn't have a key switch, just an on/off and a start button. I have to carry the lock everywhere I go. I think the main reason he really leaves the thing in his yard is that we live swo far out in the country that sitting on top of the 20ft tripod is the only place we get cell phone reception. We look stupid sitting/talking in the stand, but free nights and weekends & long distance will make you do stupid things. Kinda feel like whats' his name on green acres TV show. There I go showing my age again.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 20:31:54 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Get ahold of Wilson electronics (CLICK) and order the "Cellular trucker" cell phone antenna. It's an external (think CB antenna) antenna that plugs into that little round hole with a rubber plug in it on the back of your phone. And, yes, your phone DOES have one of those. Or, if you're anywhere near a flying J truckstop, you can get one there. Also, get the amplifier for it. You'll rarely find somewhere that you can't call with that amp on this setup.

Hold your applause, please!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 21:28:27 (ZULU)

Jeff: 1:9 is kinda fast for the 308--not slow. Slow is 1:12, at least for stability at or above 175 grains at normal velocities. Some rifles will stabilize, some won't at the 12 twist. Mine doesn't with Geoff M's handloads---but seems OK with Bravo's handloads. Very little difference in the recipes, but accuracy shows those differences. I'd take a recommendation that Lito (among others here) once mentioned: 1:11.25" twist for 308! I need to go back and go over this Kimber with a fine tooth comb. I think the barrel will be stamped somewhere with twist rates. Edited to add: I'm not trying to doubt you--it is just a weird rate for 308--enough that I will call Kimber to find out why they selected it.

Kryptonite locks: I had one years ago for my pedal bike, IIRC. It was a U-shaped thing with a barrel lock on the cross bar that had a bearing pressed in TDC to prevent drilling. A great design and pricey---but not quite as pricey as a Fuji Racing rig! Or, an antiquated harley, for that matter! I had a platoon of locks on my hawg in the Boston area--but I used chain and decent padlocks since I kept them in a small day pack with uniforms and other shit and space was at a premium. Nothing was mounted on the bike itself except my ass and hers (whoever she may have been at the time). The best lock, also carried in the pack, aligned the cylinder of the model 19--that and a window seat took all the worry out of parking in town.

That buck--the face to face guy, disappeared for a few days. He came tearing ass across the high pasture this morning (that route I suspected he'd use) right to where my stand is. Of course, i was in the driveway parking a truck right then:))

Joe M
Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 23:43:35 (ZULU)

Joe Your right. I had a brain fart. They probably figured that hunters would be using the heavy 180 grain bullets in that gun. They make the varment and tacticles with slower twist rates. I wish I'd asked Steve why they went with such a fast twist, but that'd be my guess. Better to err fast than slow though. The only thing I use 180's in is my ultra mag. Too much drop for me to use them in the slower cartridges. My win mag I used 160's. I guess people pick between drop from BC and drop from slower velocity due to weight. Sooner or later they are all gonna drop as long as were here on earth.

Topic for discussion: Higher weight and BC, or lower weight and faster speed. Where do the trade off's occur.

Travis Thanks. Haven't thought about that. I've got one of thier CB antennas. Works great with my 500 watt lenier. Called little will.

Looked at a rem 700 Varment Synthetic in .308. They wanted $1146 new with tax. Whats' a good price?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 00:14:22 (ZULU)

Jeff: Just looking for the first one listed, I'd say $650/ used is a good starting point.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976957837/Guns/Rifles/Remington-Rifles-Modern/Model-700/Tactical/REMINGTON_700VS_308CAL_LIKE_NE.htm

308s do not get too much abuse on barrel wear and two types of people buy and sell these: Guys who care about equipment and find they are ready for the next level of accuracy--in which case you will get a well cared for rifle, well broken-in. The other is the guy who "heard" that fat barrels and wide stocks will make him a better marksman only to learn that these things are heavy as a pile of bricks and he still can't hit a barn broadside with it (just like his previous rifle). Either way, it is unlikely that you would buy a worn dawg used--especially at this weight. I love the "used racks" or pawn shops. I love it even more when the find coincides with money in the pocket:)) Not often, as it turns out...

"Higher weight and BC, or lower weight and faster speed. Where do the trade off's occur."

A: Usually between the point of impact and the exit hole...;))

Joe M
Friday, November 2, 2007, at 00:41:41 (ZULU)

Gents,

Jeff, if you're looking for a "starter" rifle you may want to look at a Rem 700 PSS or an older "Varmint Special". The VS is my preference. If you can find a Winchester M70 Stealth in .308 I'd grab it and run. Mine is in .223 and I wish I would have tucked one away in .308. On the other hand my M40A1 clone seems to fill that bill...;-)

As noted, the .308 is easy on bores, so you'll probably not have a problem with barrels being shot out or barrel life. If you shoot A LOT you may shoot one out in 3-4 years and I'd expect a .308 bolt gun barrel to last about 10K rounds before re-barreling. Have heard of some going to 15K. There's better cartridges, for sure, but none that give the barrel life, accuracy, and shootability of that round. I AM a fan. That rifle will take care of about 95+% of what you will run into.

Rifle twist: I've never heard of anyone using a 1:9" twist in a .308. That's pretty fast. Most factory guns are using a 1:12". My own Obermeyer .308 barrel is a 1:10 twist. Faster than needed to stabilize 175 SMK's, but I like to shoot 190's as they shoot flatter and hit harder out to 600 yards. After that the 175 Gr. SMK's take over. I know that Boots Obermeyer and John Krieger both agree that the optimum twist for the .308 is 1:11.25". Frankly, I doubt we could really tell the difference between any of them when compared.

Weapons Safety: A VERY sore point with me. I blame our leadership for not making proper training available to our Marines and other services. Leadership allowed a "range mentality" to become a subliminal teaching that if you're not on the range the weapon must be safe. That cost us three Marines at the end of DS/DS. Leadership's response was "turn in your ammo". This from a fighting force? Since we teach that all weapons should be treated as loaded why not do it? Is there a cost? You bet...the suicide bomber that killed 243 Marines in Beruit back in '83 might have been stopped...if the gate guard would have been allowed to have a magazine in his weapon! We all lost friends in that one.

Hell, we fielded men with weapons and NO AMMO during DS/DS. Luckily, myself and my WO2 had seen this before and brought our own. The response we got was "you'll have it when you need it". Personally, I thought we should be the ones making that decision. We stayed loaded until I could see the departer aircraft sitting on the tar-mac. This is a classic case of leadership not doing the right thing, but the easy thing. The trend needs to be reversed. Ken, I think you broke the code when you said the Marines should be held responsible WHEN they have recieved proper training.

'Lito, funny, I've got a Ruger #1B barreled action in 6mm Rem awaiting stocking. Good cartridge. Had a early Rem 700 VS in 244. Pressed checking and a Unertl 10X with external adjustments. Old, but darn it shot well.

That's enough of a rant for this evening...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 05:13:15 (ZULU)

Click on my name for M&A Parts. They're friends and good people. Putting M16's together is fairly straightforward and says you some $.

Wes, our Bn went over with at least one mag per man. Some of us went with more, some of us went with LOTS more:) All M855, ie the marginal stuff. But it beats the holy Jebus outta nothing. Aside from a drug deal worked out with the local MEU, the only Mk 262 (77gn 5.56) in our part of the world came to me via US postal service;) Also how we got 12ga slugs and door breaching rds. The nice thing about being an independant battalion task force was the autonomy, also the bad thing(ie everyone shits on you and you have no friendly support) Some of the leadership decisions WRT small arms made were not ones I would have done, but they were far from the worst I've ever seen. It worked out OK down where the rubber met the road, we had a pretty good SNCO/NCO corps where it mattered. All I can say is "Thank God" the S4 actual and S3 actual never reconciled the expenditure reports against the patrol logs:)

The sniper platoon was GTG WRT weapons handling, for the old hands anyways. We had done all sorts of off the books training to ensure this was the case. The USMC pushed down some good training to supplement this, but to be honest, for the fundamentals, the stuff we did on our own was superior, even if it lacked the "gee-whiz" training areas and hardware. The only problems we had were a few of the new joins we took from Wpns Coy 6 weeks before we went OCONUS, they just couldn't catch up in the timeframe we were alloted. This is what established the attitude I have, what I held those Marines accountable for was different from what the older hands were held accountable for. That was the only thing that I could reasonably consider just for all parties involved.

IMO, this is one of the main reasons that micromanagement and staff bloat is so horrible to performance. The people out doing the work are extremely motivated to do things properly, they have immediate and dramatic feedback. The staff side/support guys have nothing remotely approaching this, thus their getting over involved with day to day "outside the wire" activities almost certainly doesn't add anything positive to the mix. With the caveat being that your trigger pullers have to be at least reasonably capable relative to the mission assigned. In my world, that is generally assumed, sometimes wrongly, but not very often. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Friday, November 2, 2007, at 07:14:39 (ZULU)

I don't understand the mindset of someone who would take live ammo away from someone in a hostile environment in the name of "safety". Well, I suppose I actually do, if it's for the sake of protecting themselves from professional harm, instead of protecting the troops. Now, we (civilian police)carry weapons loaded all the time, and the incidents of NG's is negligible. Why is that? Probably because we're constantly pounded with the "all guns are always loaded" rule, then made to carry them that way and be responsible for the result if we screw the pooch. On the other hand, official policy on AR15 carry is still to have them in the trunk, cased, mags out and chambers empty. Assuming that if you need an AR, you need it RIGHT NOW and in a really bad way, that's just plain idiocy. UNOFFICIAL policy is to do what you gotta do. Of course, our official policy is absolutely Byzantine.....I'm going to IA next week to explain why I stopped to eat dinner without asking Massah's permission. 3 months, 10 days.......

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 15:26:32 (ZULU)

Joe and Wes: Thanks for the advise. I have never owned a .308 except for my Encore Pistol. I bought it becauase I figured the cartridge was probably the limit of what a 15in. barrel could burn. Anything bigger would just be wasting powder. All my hunting rifles since I sold my .270 25 years ago have been .300 mag types. Long 28in barrels that could make use of slow burning powders. They have all also been heavy barrel/stock combinations because I don't do a lot of walking when hunting but do, as previously stated, get the opportunities to make some long shots. I remember being one of the few people in here when the SC roster started that was shooting 300winmag. Everyone that had a guestion about Win mag loads was e-mailing me. I only came back "home" here about 9 months ago when deer season was over, cropdusting hadn't started, & I only had one drug K9 in training and was very boared. It's nice to be back.

Now I'm the new guy, with a new cartridge, that I've got to learn all about. When I bought the 25wssm for my daughter I figured get her a light gun and one that doesn't have much recoil. I had completely departed from my origional way thinking. She doesn't walk either when hunting and all my stands have good rests to lay a heavy gun across. They were put up for myself and my 15lb gun. Anyway, not long ago I realized, why not go .308 in a heavy gun, and she likes the feel of the varmint stock on the one we looked at. The old LCM ammo I've got will give her plenty on practice rounds and great brass to reload. There's only 2 different batch numbers to all 400 rounds. That's also a plus. I've had it sooo long, I can't even remember why I bought the stuff, but I seem to remember paying $50 for it and probably thought I'd resell it.

I've got an offer for a trade for a Win M70 .308 SS. What are your opinions on this particular type rifle? http://www.gunsamerica.com/976969071/Guns/Rifles/Winchester-Rifles-Modern-Bolt-Auto-Single/Model-70/Post-64/Win_M70_HV_308_SS.htm#

Gun safty= you guys are right on about the training. Also If your finger isn't on the trigger the gun is much less likely to discharge. Whether the gun was loaded or not, I smacked my daughter on the back of her head "not hard" every time she put her finger on the trigger before she was ready to shoot. She new it was comming and it wasn't child abuse. She understood the reason for the smack and agreed that it was a necessary part of training. Troops ought to be more than smacked, as grown men sometimes have pretty thick skulls. Reguardless of whether they actually are or not, "guns are always loaded!!!" I personally keep my finger out of the trigger guard and pointed parallel with the barrel, touching the guard, or the receiver, or the back side of the slide release depending on the weapon. It helps you instinctively, and quickly, get the weapon pointed in the right direction when you are ready to aim and fire.

If you guys get tired of my long posts, just smack me on the back of the head. I tend to get a little carried away when there's nothing for me to do in the off season.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 16:24:17 (ZULU)

MAN I didn't realize how long that last post was till I saw it up there. Sorry! Guess I need to find some type of chat room or something. Anyone got any suggestions on places to go or things to read just E-mail me, or start posting more for me to read so I can keep my fingers/mouth shut. I get really boared this time of year, and I'm trying my best to avoid giving the dog a bath.

PS: Where's gooch these days?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 16:34:28 (ZULU)

Jeff Cooper,

Buy it quick !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 23:28:14 (ZULU)

CDC,

The package arrived today. Will get on it ASAP.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 23:41:16 (ZULU)

Jeff...

BUY IT NOW!!

I have two in 308 (and one in .223), and they are tack holers.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 00:41:31 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

I, too am a big fan of the used gun rack. Think about it; how many shooters are reloaders? Very few. How many of those remaining shooters can afford the ammo to wear a gun out? Bolt guns and large caliber handguns are rarely shot enough to hurt them, or, most times, enough to truly break them in! Most of the time, if you find a used .44 mag., I'd bet it's got less than 2 boxes of shells through it.

Jeff,

I, too believe in the "smack upside the head" method, but I find that it works better to use a lightweight switch, or the skinny end of a fishing pole. A cleaning rod should be handy, anyway.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 01:47:56 (ZULU)

Jeff: I took a riffle like that to ASA and did okay. I went home and dry-fired a bit then took it to the state 1,000 yd championship match. It was BY FAR the cheapest rifle on the line but it shot the highest score shot that day. Buy it now.

Joe M: The pkg came. It contained a lot of very nice gear. Thanks.

CDC'
Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 02:10:41 (ZULU)

Gents,

Jeff, snag that Winch and don't look back. I would ask for a standard three day inspection/return for funds just to cover yourself. There are some shady folk out there, but they don't last long in the gun trade or on the GunsAmerica site.

KenM, Sounds like you had some good troops and they had good leadership. A match made in heaven when it happens. My biggest run ins on active duty where with S-3's with no operational experience that wanted to dictate operations.

My last couple of CO's trusted me enough to give me the situation and general guidance, then backed away and let my men and self get it done. Don't think I've ever been happier.

Well, he did look at me kinda funny the night we were ordered to fall back from our positions and I demo'd the armory...;-)

Two beer story...

Charles H., You had to see IA for taking dinner? Shouldn't have been a problem. I'd assume you were still in communication with dispatch...

Seems like the new folks don't have an idea about what working together and teamwork is all about. Unfortunately, management seems to want them that way. It sucks goggles. Hope the outcome of your IA meeting is positive. If I were IA I'd be apologizing for even bothering you...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 02:21:38 (ZULU)

Another 'BUY IT NOW!".

Bolt out!

Bolt
Allergy season again in......., NC, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 02:26:23 (ZULU)

Tulsa is now not only jailing illegals, but fining/imprisoning anyone that aids them, to include giving them a ride. This should be national policy.

Local idiot practicing gun spinning shoots self in leg. Too bad it wasn't in the nuts. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 02:31:47 (ZULU)

Everyone Thanks for the imput! Takled to the guy today and I'm gonna trade him the Ruger Mark III hunter 22 pistol, and the 25wssm. I'm coming about $100 dollars on the bottom, but it's what my daughter and I both want, which makes it Ok with me. I'm gonna try and see if I can talk him out of some Leup bases and maybe QD rings. That is somethhing I would also like some advise on . Bases and rings. I've always used Leupold on my rifles, but I would like your opinions and why you use them. I'll be mounting a Ziess 3.5x10x44 on it till I can get another Leupold or Nightforce. Let me know what the Army and Marines are using and if there is something better in your opinion and why. Lots of info would be appreciated.

Sir Wes I made sure I got the three day look in the deal. He gets one too since I'm trading but I can't see anyreason he would back out. My guns are in great shape, and he gave me history of his gun. About 300 rounds. He does own an actual gun store and apparently does quite a business from what I could hear in the background. Not just an internet guy with FFL at home. That makes me feel a more at ease.

Travis Definately should be national policy. Maybe deport the helpers and take away thier ID's also. Just to see how long it takes them to getback and maybe figure out how the real illegals are doing it.

Double action guns are hell on body parts when twirling. Can't go any further cause I used twirl my Colt SAA unloaded all the time. I know that's bad, but I got pretty good.

See you guys tomorrow, over and out to the bed

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tennessee, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 04:06:15 (ZULU)

Jeff: "...and see if I can talk him out of some Leup bases and maybe QD rings."

You're reinventing the wheel. A guy named "Pablito" used to post here. He was a cranky old fart but he wrote a good primer. Click my name.

CDC'
Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 04:39:09 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Sentencing people to Mexico for assisting illegals would be funny as hell. If Mexico wanted to bitch about it, all we'd have to say is, "Well, we'll take 'em back if you come get YOUR people out of OUR country!"

That fucking Schwarzeneger needs to either be thrown into a wood chipper feet first or deported. Same for the Kennedy's.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 05:20:29 (ZULU)

Wes Howe,

I'm not from Missouri, but you're gonna have to show me on that one.

Not the "hit harder" part, the "shoot flatter" part.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 05:54:05 (ZULU)

Gents,

JC, I knew somone was going to call me on the 190 Gr. SMK's shooting flatter than 175 gr. SMK's out to 600 yards. I wouldn't have believed it either, but I have done it and continue to do so...

My load for the Sierra 175 grain SMK gives me 2,650 FPS while the load for the 190 grain SMK uses IMR-4064 and chrono's at 2,608 FPS.

Come ups at 600 yards are 15.0 MOA for the 175 gr. SMK's and 14.5 MOA for the 190 gr. SMK's. Not much difference, but the 190's do shoot slightly flatter in my rifles. A whole 3" flatter...;-0

Beyond 600 yards the 175 gr. SMK's fly flatter...

Jeff, glad you got the rifle. We'll wait on the range report.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 06:36:36 (ZULU)

Jeff: Consider yourself lucky that I did not stumble a page or two ahead and find that HV myself. I'd have bought it---and still will if you get dumb and back out. CDC is tellin' ya to read around this site some and find out all the dirt on the Loopy QDs and bases. For the best rings for budget--I'd say the burris zee's are the best available under 50 bucks. Get a good base though! Any pic-rail/ weaver type will workie--but only a few workie well and forever. I use Marty's stuff from badger ord. BTW, I wouldn't worry about that 100 dollar "loss" much--in my mind, you are way ahead on this deal. Look around at what these things sell for used--and see what I mean. Last one i saw locally was a 30.06 that was marked north of 1200. Someone other than me did buy it, too.

I too am bored and posting too much;))

CDC: Merry Christmas! Those things are what my previous profession called "expendable items." I tend to think of them that way still. So, in my eyes I sent you a box of junk;)) But like they say--"one man's junk is..." Seriously though, I hope it helps fix that problem in the future!

Oh hell, I better get to bed! I have to go rattle at bucks tomorrow. I think I am a trophy hunter with this bow thing, just passing all the little six and eights up as I watch them charge in looking for a fight. I figure if their head gear is smaller than the antlers I am banging away with--they ain't worth the draw weight. The meat will come during gun deer! But for now, bringing them in seems easy enough. That makes me think I can wait for a decent buck.

Joe M
Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 07:06:03 (ZULU)

Wes,

I'm running my 175's a little faster than you are with yours. I'm getting just a little over 2900 fps out of a Broughton 1:10 bbl using 46 grns of RL-15. Comeup is 12.25 at 600. Slight pressure signs, but not enough to worry about.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 08:05:24 (ZULU)

Jeff C.

Runnin Leupold QRW's on the DPMS LR308(AR10),my reason for the QRW's were for pickin up a NV scope and swappin over to day scope as the application was needed.NV for the yotes and dayscope on deer.At the time I started this brainstorm WI DNR had a rule saying that you could not use lights at the point of kill on coyotes.It was ok to use lights at point of kill with raccoon but not on coyotes.That rule has been revised.I am not sure if it was by popular complaint,or if it was because everyone was using a light anyway.But I wanted something that I could swap fast and easy w/out a loss of zero.Ran 60 rds thru it rapid fire and they did not shoot loose....But I check them routinely anyway,not sure how well they will hold up on a bolt gun.I know there is better...but they are workin for now.If you decide to run with them I suggest that you dont take the lever/screw assembly apart to see what makes it tick...gettin them back together is a real pia.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 10:09:33 (ZULU)

Jeff C.

I've got 2 Ziess 3.5x10x44. I really like that scope, to me that scope is the best bang for the buck there is. One is mounted an a Model 70 7mm WSM in the Burris Zee rings and there have been no problems holding the scope in place. I'm going to rescope my sons 243 and am going with the Zee's .

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 11:44:46 (ZULU)

Scheduled to get what's left of Noel as a post-tropical storm rolling thru Nova Scotia on Saturday night / early Sunday AM. Up to 140Km/hr winds and up to 40mm of rain is current predictions.

http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/warnings/report_e.html?ns1

Wish me luck.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 12:55:23 (ZULU)

Jeff...

For an off the rack match rifle, the Winchester M70 HBV, w/stainless barrel, is THE best rifle going. Don't let that puppy get away.

For rings and bases, there are two ways to go...

... the standard style (not bomb proof, but VERY good):

A GOOD quality Weaver cross slot base, like the Leupold QRW (BASES, not rings), or the Warne Weaver "Maxima" base:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=144897&t=11082005

which is better than the Leupold, and half the price.

For rings, the Burris "Signature ZEE" rings are the only way to go for standard rings - they allow you to tilt the scope for more range, and won't mar the scope tube (which is a BAD thing, says Martha).

For the Bomb proof set up, there are Leupold MK4 base(s) and rings... and the Badger base(s) and rings.

I have both on my tac match rifles, and both are outstanding, but be prepared to spend around $250 to $300 for a set of rings and base(s).

I like two piece bases cuz it's easier to get your fingers inside the action to clear a stuck case (ask Ken about "Stuck Cases" at the Storm Mountain snipie match ;))) HA!

Some guys like one piece bases... "You pays your money, and takes your choice!"

At this point, they are not necessary for you.

Also... if you go this way, you MUST have the rings lapped - Marty (Badger) bores his rings co-axially, but the problem is that all rifle actions are finished up on belt sanders, so the contours vary, and so each set of rings must be lapped to match the action.

If you don't, you will get dreaded "ring marks" on your $800 scope, and when you go to sell it, those marks will cost you $200 in value, cuz no one wants a marked and scratched scope (I won't buy one at any price).

Make sure you have a bubble level on there, somewhere.

'lito (the "Cranky" ol' curmudgeon ;)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 13:58:40 (ZULU)

JC - 2900 fps with 175s in a .308.. How long is that barrel? 30" would be my guess, and even then, I think you are pushing them hard enough to ensure the barrel makers don't forget your name. I'm pushing mine at 2750 and I thought I was running hot.

medicjim
Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 14:05:13 (ZULU)

Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 15:29:32 (ZULU)

Thanks for the advise guys,

I can't wait to get the rifle. I'm shipping my guns Monday 2nd day UPS. They should arrive by Wed and he should ship back to me Then or Thursday. So If it doesn't stolen off the docs next weekend, I should have it next week sometime. I'm gonna tell him insure it at the price of a new one just in case. That's what it'll take to replace it.

I think I'll go with standard Leup rings and bases till next summer cause of bad flying season and short money till then. After that I'm gonna replace them with Badger Ord 20 MOA bases and rings. Hopefully I can also switch the scope for a Leup LRT then. I've got a NEF.243 that needs a scope on it and I'll put the Ziess there. I'd stick it on my Encore muzzleloader but it gets total emersion cleaning baths after shooting. I know they have garuntees, but just can't make myself put anything more expensive than a Nikon Buckmaster on something I'm gonna dunk in steaming hot water. And, the buck master is fine for short shooting out to 250yds.

Don't know where my head was last night, but I can't believe I missed opening morning of muzzleloader season. Set the alarm on my phone and then laid my pants down on top of it. I didn't hear the thing untill 7:45 when my wife woke me and asked "why I was still there, and what was that noise comming from my pants in the floor." Life goes on, I'll get a doe this afternoon for the meat, and to try to control the population. A lot of people don't know it but, Tennessee has one of the highest deer per acre rates in the country. Now if we can just get an "8pt 16in spread" regulation with a "4 year or older exception" we might really get the trophy buck rate to go up. Too bad the rednecks won't go for it.

I just noticed we had member numbers. Wish I knew what my origional one was.

Again, thanks to all for the .308 information and advise. I'm not new to long distance shooting, but I am new to doing it with a "low" power rifle, so keep it coming.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 17:57:54 (ZULU)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tragic Local Courtroom Drama plays out in Omaha-

Omaha, NE (AP) -A seven-year old boy was at the center of a Douglas

County courtroom drama yesterday when he

challenged a court ruling over who should have custody of him. The boy

has a history of being beaten by his

parents and the judge initially awarded custody to his aunt, in keeping

with child custody law and regulation

requiring that family unity be maintained to the highest degree

possible. The boy surprised the court when he proclaimed that his aunt

beat him more than his parents and he adamantly refused to live with

her.

When the judge then suggested that he live with his grandparents, the

boy cried and said that they also beat him. After considering the

remainder of the immediate family and learning that domestic violence

was apparently a way of life among them, the judge took the

unprecedented step of allowing the boy to propose who should have

custody of him.

After two recesses to check legal references and confer with the child

welfare officials, the judge granted temporary custody to the Nebraska

Cornhuskers, whom the boy firmly believes are not capable of beating

anyone.

__________________

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 18:08:34 (ZULU)

Jeff...

>" I just noticed we had member numbers. Wish I knew what my origional one was."<

Where did you see the member number???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 18:11:48 (ZULU)

Click. Interesting info.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 18:48:57 (ZULU)

Lito

First and second clickable boxes next to the displayed SC member name have the member number embedded into the shortcut,

which some web browsers display.

Yours displays thusly:

http://www.snipercountry.com/cgi-bin/DisplayProfile.asp?MemberNumber=316

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 19:03:27 (ZULU)

Thanks Rod... my browser (Foxfire) won't show it.

So I'm #316 huh...

... damn, I'm feelin' older and older every day ;))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 19:40:40 (ZULU)

Travis, thank you. Some interesting recipe's there, and I am going to try a few.

Anyone have anything to add about the electrical rust removal? I have a woodsman that needs a bit of the attention.

As an aside, I am awaiting for the export/import process to finalize, on a Crusader. Christmas, whenever it arrives.

God Bless, and Stay Safe

Sean.

Editted to add: Hey 'Lito, they made numbers back then?

Sean
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 19:53:10 (ZULU)

Lito: Numbers That's why I'm curious what my old number was. I started posting here in 98-99 I think. I'm don't think we had passwords back then. I seem to remember the first sniperquest competition being a big subject. Was the year "The Jeff Cooper" whom my father knew from the service before he was famous, and named me after designed that Styer scout rifle.

Muzzleloaders: Why in the crap can't someone put one out that has a stock long enough to get your head away from the scope. or a mount that moves the scope foward about 8 inches. I'm tired of busted noses and eyes. Gotta find a longer "custom" stock for my encore.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 20:22:18 (ZULU)

Pakistan under martial law

Pakistan Supreme Court was just about to rule on validity of President Musharraf's re-election.

This was predicted earlier as a possibility...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/03/pakistan.emergency/index.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 23:41:23 (ZULU)

Gents,

JC, that load of yours must be a humdinger! Like medicjim, I was wondering about barrel length, OAL, brass, and how many grains of SEMTEX you were using to get 2,900 FPS. To me that's just plain scary. Had one heavily compressed load of IMR-4064 that was giving me 2,750 with a 175 gr SMK, but stopped using it. While I wasn't seeing any extreme pressure signs I was seeing enough to go back to my old standby of 44.0 gr. of Varget. I know, I've got NO imagination, but I don't have to worry about my rifle (and self) being scattered all over. That load does what I want. Besides, if I need something that shoots flatter I can always reach for my 6.5 X .284...:-)

Travis, your "Cornhusker" joke had me ROTFLMAO. You really ought to put spew alerts on those...

Sounds like things are getting interesting in Pakistan. Wonder who is keeping eyes on those nukes of theirs...besides us.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 02:51:09 (ZULU)

Three Shots Three Kills and, before someone says it, I changed hides between shots. The only problem is the first one still hasn't been found. Beginning to wonder if deer drag thier wonded away. Actually it's a problem with non expanding muzzle loader bullets. Figured that out when I found the second and third. .45 cal going in .45 comming out. That's sucks cause I hate to waste or lose meat. Will look more for the first one in the morning when there's light. It'll be cold enough here tonight that the meat will still be good as long as the bullet didn't get into the abdominal cavity. I can't wait for gun season. Head shots aren't hard to find.

Anyway back to the scopes on muzzle loaders. I now have stiches in my eyebrow. 4, done by your's truelly.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 02:53:53 (ZULU)

CatWhacker: "Undocumented Aliens" lacks sensitivity. The proper term is "Non-traditional migrants". It is kind of like Clinton's grotesque sexual assaults being called "Inappropriate courtship".

Joe: "Expendable items"? You are being modest. Thanks again.

CDC'
Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 05:29:18 (ZULU)

Wes Howe & Medicjim,

It's really not that bad. I use a small vibrator (no, not that kind) to get the 46 grns of RL-15 to settle as far as possible, usually down to the case/shoulder junction. The bullet is seated so the beginning of the boattail is just at the neck/shoulder junction so there's no powder compression. I've read that Broughton barrels are "fast" meaning you can use hotter loads with less pressure because of the 5C rifling and that seems to bear out. BTW, the bbl is 28". And like I said, there's very little in the way of pressure signs. The primers lose a little of their radius but that's about all. Bolt lift is very easy and the brass looks fine.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 06:21:47 (ZULU)

Guys,

Check this site out! Damn good prices, if you need several hundred. www.brassworldeshop.com

Wes,

That would a ruined the joke!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 14:49:04 (ZULU)

Guys,

What are your opinions on using .307 diameter bullets in my .30-30? I got a couple hundred Sierra 150 gr. flat noses that were labeled "150 gr. Flat Nose 30-30" for $15. Couldn't pass it up. My '94 was made in 1972, I believe, and I don't know when they started recommending the use of .308 diameter bullets.

Also, do any of you have much experience using 180 or 185 gr. jacketed soft round nose bullets in a .30-30? What kinda results did you get? Are they pretty much just good for a short range bear/moose hunting kinda load?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 15:20:58 (ZULU)

Guys,

If they start banning black guns, here's the alternative. Click.

And for all you married (or permanently shacked up) guys......

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=59740

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 16:09:58 (ZULU)

Help, does anyone have any extra neoprene they are willing to part with. I just threw away those 2 pieces that come with waders about 2 weesk ago and then saw the tripod on the tips section. I'm willing to buy and pay shipping if necessary.

thanks, Jeff

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 18:45:10 (ZULU)

Hi guys:

Came out of post-tropical storm Noel with no major issues. Lost power from 04:00 to 13:17 Atlantic. Apparently 170,000 people in Nova Scotia shared the same fate. Word of thanks to power linemen. Wind gusts were probably over 120Km/h locally.

http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=77221&sc=89

Went to an indoor IPSC match that had to be cancelled because the range had no power either.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 18:58:07 (ZULU)

I've used standard .308" diameter 150 and 170 gr projectiles in my 1977 mfgr Win Model 94 s/n 4517xxx No issues.

lookup W94 mfgr date w/serial number here:

http://www.savage99.com/winchester1894_dates.htm

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 19:54:14 (ZULU)

Jeff - older mouse pads are neoprene. Just about everyone with a computer has one laying around.

medicjim
Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 21:05:45 (ZULU)

I can't fucking believe theses guys. What ever happened to swearing to UPHOLD the law? These bastards sure aren't helping with the public's perception of cops.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 22:57:49 (ZULU)

Jim Perfect. I never thought about that. I've got a couple myself somewhere I think. Thanks, now off to find them.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 02:05:11 (ZULU)

CDC: I am glad you like that stuff. Plenty more just like it in my boxes and cabinets around here! But it really, really is considered "expendables" by the supply system--I'm not kidding;)) Hey, whatta we care--its YOUR tax dollars after all. Heheh.

My farm-ghillie nailed the local vegetation. It is a cloaking device. I think I can thin out the shoulders and the arms a bit without losing anything but excess bulk--but the color scheme is PERFECT! I used standard farm burlap (tan-brown) both dirty as sin and clean, an old army camo net--the little ones that fit in the cargo pocket, little squiggly strips of OG 107 (cut in semi curcles down th lengths), green/ brown-woodland patterned burlap, and realtree burlap with Poplar tree patterns and fall colors. I also tossed in bailing twine 6-10 inch cuts, split in half down the length, and frayed into friz here and there. With no additional add-in--this thing blends in with the pine and cedar on the SE ridge, the marsh in the north and the one in the west, all fields, and in the hardwood stands. The base color is the two shades of tan.

My wife, who thought I should have made it in the living room with the family--is amazed at the mess it makes:)) The arms room is covered edge to edge with ghillie worms.

I sat on a finger saturday, back to a big field and barely off the crest looking toward the wooded ridge to my south. I was in a terrible spot--but I was trying to stay close to my nephew who was out with a bow for his first time. The wind was 8-12 from due west, which put my scent on the east side of the finger---usually not the path any deer take as it is closer to the buildings. So naturally, the buck took that route! He would have needed to take four more steps to hit a shooting lane across the scrub oaks, but he got my scent and snorted up a storm, stomped, and hauled ass. A nice 8-pointer. That was saturday's only action for me. My nephew had a shot at a doe, but missed due to deflection. He jumped at the shot instead of waiting for her to enter an open area--and shot thru a tangle of branches. We had a little talk about that. He is now suitably inpressed on the amount of deflection an arrow takes, especially after recovering his miss about ten yards off line from his POA. Today's hunt was mine alone. I took a position in the back forty (my shotgun CQB spot). I watched 7 turkey and 3 doe walk by within 15 yards--one doe got within 12ft of me! The wind shifted more north, and it was in my face. I was tempted on the turkey---but they don't taste good enough to merit an arrow (pricey buggers). So now I am wondering if'n I can have my shotgun along??? I need to read up on two-species/ two weapon hunting. In all, it is great to just sit in the woods as an extension of the vegetation. Tomorrow I may go out after the school bus--if the winds allow me to move up a ridge. I'll be out in the afternoon for sure. Now this is more like it...for awhile there, I thought retirement was a bust with laundry as the day's highlight.

Also got in some shooting. Sighted in an '06 and a 44 mag sat afternoon. Country living rocks.

Travis: Browsed a couple of topics on that link. I was thinking it is a joke--a site that is designed to make cops look like stupid asshats. I sure hope these aren't really cops posting this crap. But, I have met a few that do qualify as jackasses---out of mutltitudes that did not---there always a few who ruin it for the many every where you look. Heheh, the few LEO that were utter shit stains sure do stand out in memory (as is always the case regardless of profession). But to publish these thoughts in an open forum is plain-assed brain dead...so i have to doubt it is real LE doing it. But if it is real live cops---holy shit! I especially liked that arrogant us vs the civies condescending BS...I laughed at that one.

On the other hand, if this is straight-up; no wonder so many departments come out so strongly for gun control!!! It must be tough having these attitudes while the "civies" (hahaha) are still armed.

Actually, some of that shit turned my stomach.

Our fellow hawg-LEOs need to hit that link and reassure me. Or totally ruin my hopes.

Joe M
Monday, November 5, 2007, at 05:39:19 (ZULU)

Joe,

Check the archives. A few months back, I got hard core flamed for saying just that here on the DR to someone doing the same thing.

I've gotten tickets after a long, shitty day doing something dangerous. I'm pretty sure fighting bulls to protect kids that wanted to ride them kind of equates. Nobody ever gave me a break. I don't recall expecting one, either.

Rules are rules. If you're the one that's supposed to enforce them, you shouldn't flaunt them.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 07:05:45 (ZULU)

It's amazing. All the people that bellyache about how the cops shouldn't be above the law (and we're not, believe me. we get hammered harder than anyone else) are the first ones to whine and wheedle for a "warning" after blowing through a red light at 50 in a 30 because they're late for something or another, or just not paying attention. Let's say you work for the water board, and you're out looking for people violating no-water rules during a drought. You see your best friend's kid washing his car in the driveway 15 minutes after the curfew. You gonna write him, or give him a warning? He should get a citation, right? No one is immune, right?

About a year ago, I stopped a fellow that was driving like a total imbecile and almost T-boned me while I was on the way back to the station. He stopped in the parking lot of an apartment complex. When I approached and asked for his license, I knew right away that he was driving impaired. I could also see that, as he was reaching for his license, most of his left arm, and a good portion of his shoulder and neck, were missing. As he was about my age, and I saw the VA hospital sticker on his van, I figured he was a vet and asked him. Yup. Lost a lot of body parts in an engagement when he was a scared kid in Vietnam. His young wife was just sitting there, crying quietly. I guess I should have busted his ass and run him in for DWI, as he's not "above the law". But, being the arrogant, haughty asshole that I am, I helped her get him out of the van and into the apartment, and then I reamed him out. I've seen him several times since, and he's been as sober as a judge. I've got a ticket book that's a year old, and I make at least four traffic stops a day, mainly to get people to think about what they're doing.

Everyone loves to jump on the soap box about "rogue cops". Until they need one. Take a pill, Travis.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 14:25:33 (ZULU)

And no, teaching some child to ride a bull does not equate. You can both walk away from that one. What would you think of a cop that walked away from a violent family disturbance because the Neanderthal beating the hell out of his wife with a baseball bat was bigger than him/her, and he/she had no backup? Real story.

There ARE exceptions. Everywhere.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 14:34:05 (ZULU)

Actually, Charles, NOBODY needs rogue cops. When folks call 911, they don't ask for an unreasonable asshole with an attitude. They ask for help. Just because your job sucks or is dangerous at times, doesn't mean the public should have to put up with you when want to be a dick.

And what's this shit about a kid washing the car? If some little turd can't follow the rules, he needs punished. If his Dad can't deal with it, he's too uptight to call a friend.

Cops are no more deserving of special treatment than judges, lawyers, girlscouts, clowns, or poodles. Their family, friends, and families of friends shouldn't be immune from the law either. You're about what one would expect from a Texas cop.

Ever considered counseling?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 14:59:20 (ZULU)

Well, as a retired cop and one who supervised as a Patrol Sgt and Captain, I always said to my guys, "You will have less stress and resentment if you just understand everything is your fault."

No matter who started it and what occurred, it is your fault at the end of the day.

You will be second guessed for doing something, nothing and anything. And... that is by the public, the courts and your own administration.

That is just the way it is and you can't prove me wrong.

All that being said, I loved every bit of my career and the young officers that worked for and with me.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 15:35:32 (ZULU)

"You're about what one would expect from a Texas cop."

Travis, if, by that, you mean one who enforces the law with common sense and compassion, well, then, (a) I hope you're right, and (b) I'm pleased to live in Texas.

The motto of many police departments is, "To Protect and to Serve."

There are times when rigidly enforcing the letter of the law does neither.

Good cops - of which I'd guess Charles is one - know that, and acquire some judgement about that. So do those of us who get old enough to realize the enormous magnitude of our own imperfection.

Charles: we had George from S.A.P.D. S.W.A.T. down here on Saturday, helping us run a match. We had a good time together chasing shooters.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 15:55:39 (ZULU)

Wow. Travis, you need to have some perspective. Yeah, you will find the wrong types IN EVERY WALK OF LIFE. But those exceptions prove the rule the other way. In your life--how many time did you walk by a cop, say "hi" and get a pleasent response? I bet that went totally unnoticed--hundreds of times. But one day you get caught speeding or with faulty equipment, and you are put out because this "stop" is making you later than you were--and your tone isn't "ooops, sorry" but rather "don't you have something better to do, like chase bank robbers or other REAL criminals." Then, you come away wondering why that cop treated you like shit. That happens too, everyday. And the guy on the receiving end will remember the cop who made him late, while forgetting the hundreds who had nice words and smiles in other situtations. Just the way it is.

That said, there is anecdotal evidence building--and that link does nothing to disprove it--that there is an "us against them" mentality that is not healthy for anyone. Society bears most of the blame for this, when you think about it. Today's kids, and yesterday's for that matter, are raised with an "all about me" permissiveness that is frankly anti-social. Not all, mind you---I am sure most parents that stop by this site ain't the mainstream parent--but society at large tends to be no-adverse with their kids. No limits, no manners, no saying "no." We reap what we sow, and we are planting the seeds of self-centered little worthless shits left, right and center throughout. These poorly raised hellions then get cars and go out in public at some point---and they represent the most likely segment to get pulled over--and hence, the most likely encounter for LEOs. That gets old real fast, I am sure.

But simultaneously, to treat everyone the same way out of habit gets old for guys like myself, too.

It is impossible for me to judge, one way or the other. I remember the assholes (in this state, two encounters)--while not even batting an eye at the rest of the positive encounters (too many to count, as a recruiting CO, I had many, many chats with LE types and a couple of deserved tickets, in my uniform, that were respectful and professional on both sides of the door frame). One asshole occurred after I played good samaritan at a multi-car accident---while the one trooper got in my face, five brother officers stepped in, cooled his jets, and apologized to me for his anger. yet, I recall the asshole with clarity--not the rest of the officers who were on their game that morning. So, with that perspective, the "us vs. them" can and does go both ways. If you were trying to be helpful and cheerful day in and day out--while being shit on by those who receive your help...well, I don't walk in those shoes, and if you, Travis, have not either---engage brain before engaging mouth on this subject.

This is a mutli-faceted topic---and the only thing I know for sure is that those posts on that link do not make for better community relations;))

LEO ought to be aware that perceptions, right or wrong, tend to be reality for those holding them. If you hear or see that "us vs. them" mentality in a brother officer---you should remind them that it is not always so.

Lindy--Mottos are nice. But it needs to be a mindset for it to matter to those you serve. If 1% of the population is criminal--and gets 80% of your time as a cop, and another 20% is rude and stupid, and gets another 10% of your time, that leaves 10% of your time dealing with 79% of the population that is law abiding and trying to live their life out of your way. If you bring the same attitude toward them that you use for the 21% who deserve it--then problems arise with perceptions. I can only imagine that it is hard to step up and down the scale of repsonses--especially when you usually deal with shitbags one after another in steady streams. It has to be as hard as, say, a thirty minute firefight followed by an evacuation of a children's clinic. Doing the hard thing right is the mark of a professional. Some can, some can't--and we are all human.

Last thing: If I were king for a day, I'd raise salaries for LEO across the board, and staff every department with the quality you deserve to work alongside from top to bottom. Quality has a price. Looking at some salary ranges (my wife, if you recall, was in LE) paints a shameful picture on how we (society) treat our officers from the get-go. Shit, just stop payment on all the farm subsidies with Manhatten mailing addresses and you could give every cop in America a 1000/ year raise:)) Look at the salary for a college professor, whihc is a dime a dozen psuedo intellectual within some of the "new disciplines" out there---and we pay these fuckheads more than the patrol Sergeant??? We do not have our priorities straight. But for those few who needed, absolutely needed LEO help right now---those few get it, I am sure!

I could go on and on (most of you think i did anyway) about how this so-called problem cuts one way and then the other---but if we "feel" one way or the other---we haven't really thought about it. For those, the blame is shared equally with the opposite side.

Thinking, and doing so critically, never hurts.

Joe M
Monday, November 5, 2007, at 18:34:31 (ZULU)

Travis,

" Ever considered counseling? "

IMHO, if you are suggesting that Charles could do work as a counsellor, and help those whom have issues, then granted, that may be possible, if he's interested, and good on you.

If however, you are suggesting that he needs counselling, then you are out of line. Sorry, but I am not aware of anything that qualifies you to judge.

Take it for what it's worth, and you'll still get change back.

All,

As asked already, has anyone any experience with the electrical process of removing rust from firearms? I would like to hear what you know or think.

God Bless, and Stay Safe, ALL!

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 21:54:37 (ZULU)

Well, I might be sorry for saying this, because they might soon not let me fill out a 4473.

I attend counseling now and have for awhile. I for one don't see how you get through a military career (Force Recon/Infantry) and a street cop career (Patrol/Narcotics/SWAT) and not have some kind of issues.

You know, about the 4th relationship....you think, hmmm it might be me.

I ain't crazy (quiet Chuck) but I have a temper that is always on slow simmer and that goes in a second with the proper trigger.

Cops can become very cynical and use gallows humor to survive the stress. I wish I learned the ways to deal with it years ago. I hope more cops do.

Chuck, come to think of it....you ain't right. ;)

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 22:47:24 (ZULU)

Well said Joe (as ever).

An observation: when I got off active duty a lot of family & friends said I should be a State Troper. I declined. I know enough about that job -and myself- to know it's not something I could do without going to prison. I don't like the Us-vs-Them attitude any better than any of you, but I'm willing to cut LE a break. They put up with more than I want to.

Personal: Thank you all for your prayers. They have been felt, believe me. Things are on an even keel, but we have a long road ahead of us. Continued prayers would be gratefully recieved.

Shooting (imagine!?!) The cross-talk about velocity with varrious loads in 308WIN interested me. I shoot a 10FP Savage w/a 26" barrel. I fire-lapped it, and the bore is very smooth (rarely fouls at all!). 43.2gns of VARGET gets me 2700fps out of this rig. I've chrono'd it on several occasions with consistent results. No pressure signs, and very easy bolt operation. Does this seem fast to anyone? Comments?

SSG Mac

SSG Mac
Monday, November 5, 2007, at 22:59:37 (ZULU)

http://peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SW_IW_M26.pdf

The M26, a 12-Gauge Modular Accessory Shotgun System (MASS), is under development. It is intended for attachment underneath the M4 Modular Weapon System (MWS). It zeroes to the host weapon and fires lethal, non-lethal, and door breaching rounds.

The M26 is also designed as a stand-alone system and comes with a collapsible buttstock. With a Picatinny rail on top, the receiver can be used to mount sighting equipment.

The bolt handle is mountable on either side for ambidextrous handling.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 23:16:56 (ZULU)

SSG Mac:

What projectile weight?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 23:20:38 (ZULU)

Duh Huh! That would be 175gn SMKs My memory's like a lumber shed: thing wanted always buried.

SSG Mac
Monday, November 5, 2007, at 23:36:38 (ZULU)

Archives: Funny thing, I was reading through the archives and ran into some old posts I made asking pretty much the same questions lately except about a different rifle. Back then it was my 300win. and some good starting loadsWhat's really funny is how everyone wants to tell me the "newbe" about barrel floating and how the company couldn't have screwed up it has to be the "newbe's fault" The posts were form '98. Back when Pablito was still Pablito. I thought I remembered when he first started posting questions and was the "newbe".

Cops: Of the last five drug K9's I trained, 2 of thier handlers are in the Fed Pen right now. 1 for posession of Meth and sales of anhydrous amonia, and 1 for mail and insurance fraud along with arson. They aren't all bad 3 of them are still on the beat 5 or more days a week. Of the 2 in the pen, 1 had the attitude and one didn't. Of all the rest I know and have worked with, it's about 50/50 split. Depends on where you are in the city or the country.

Send Me your favorite accuracy loads for the .308 and does anyone use accubonds in competition. The 180's have a great BC and I get sub MOA with them in my 300RUM out to 1000. If so the load could be used for target and hunting.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 00:41:17 (ZULU)

Cutting Law Enforcement a break?

The bad ones should be fired or locked up.

The good ones should be treated like professionals, respected and paid well to do a tough job. I honestly believe the best part of our judicial system is the 'discretion' left to the street cop....

medicjim
Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 01:39:49 (ZULU)

Man this pushes a lot of people's hot button!

Jim, by 'give LE a break' I meant cutting otherwise good officers -who perhaps we see just after he's had to deal with Joe Dirtbag- a break if he's not quite the soul of deportment & courtesy. We all have bad days, and aren't always able to wear-the-porcaline-smile for the next person we bump into. There's a humanity -humaneness- to Justice that is abscent in mere legality. I don't begrudge a good man who happens to be a Police Officer from execising his judgement. I think it's only when that latitude is guided by the Us-Them view, or selfish gain, that it goes wrong and becomes repugnant.

Like I said: hats off to you in LE. You guys do a job I don't want. And of course, none of that justifies a Cop gone bad. He turns himself from a servant to others into a pitiless SELF that hurts everything he touches. I agree with you that THAT man has to be found removed (and I don't envy the guy who has to do that either).

Edited to add: Jim, looking back at your post, we're clearly in agreement. Somehow at first it seemed I'd really hit your sore spot. -I agree with your last esp.

308 WIN loads: I have two that work well for me. BHA brass (neck sized), CCI-BR2 primer, 44.5gns VARGET, under 150 NBTs- 2900fps. That's my hunting (everything) load, and it holds an honest moa to 300yds. It won't stabilize past about 800 out of my 1 in 10 twist barrel. the other is 43.2gns Varget in Lake City (FLS'd) brass, w/WLR primers, under 175 SMKs- 2700fps. It holds moa(-) to 1K when I do my part- rare enough. I'm pretty anal about brass prep, and use a Forster comp seating die to assemble them both. These both seem pretty std to me from what I've heard others doing -nothing fancy here, just what works in my Savage.

Bill

SSG Mac
Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 03:43:15 (ZULU)

Click. What a stereotypical professional.

Related to the above link: http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1967.asp

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 03:57:14 (ZULU)

Gents,

I can't comment on this from the position of a street cop. Only as a retired Marine Officer, H-P consultant/employee, and someone who has worked in the Corrections Field for six years.

What is trying to be said is that no matter what you become "tainted" by the good and the bad of your profession.

The good is that you "protect and serve", feel you make a difference, and put on the uniform every day with a positive attitude. That can change with time and exposure. Your profession becomes "work" and can/does wear down the best of officers. Some deal with it by wearing the badge 24 hours a day...it will take the toll in broken relationships, alcoholism, and a host of other behaviors relating to the stress of the job.

The profession tends to "eat it's young". Most of those who started with or after me are gone. Some through normal attrition and others through violations of policy or downright criminal acts. A co-worker once commented that "sometimes it's hard to tell a big difference between inmates and staff". He's been proven right on numerous occasions.

Perhaps worst is that good officers get lumped with the bad apples and soon everyone assumes you are like the trash that just got fired, etc. It's hard to remain positive under those conditions. Especially, when something minor happens and management has a knee jerk reaction and you become "guilty until proven innocent".

Jim R., your right. If you go to work assuming everything is your fault you'll have the right mind set. Personally, I can't do that and won't.

In short this is a thankless job and you wonder what makes good officers continue to function under these conditions. The term dedication comes to mind, but dedication only goes so far.

Most of the good law enforcement professionals continue the work because they honestly feel they can still make a difference in some small way. IF they are allowed too. This gets back to the officer discretion portion of the discussion. This IS where we get the most bang for the buck.

Counseling was mentioned and it can be helpful. There are some officers that go on a weekly basis. Just to keep things in perspective.

Frankly, I may be looking at a change myself. A close friend and Doctor has recommended I look for other work because of "what the job is doing to me". I'm a little dense so he's going to have to explain that one.

My advice is give the guy in uniform some slack. You'll find that most time that is returned with interest. Those that can't find a way to deal with others as good human beings probably won't be around long anyway.

Time to shut my big mouth.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 04:52:32 (ZULU)

Travis, as a former LEO I can tell you that is not THE NORM. I know he can handle his but I gotta tell you I've met Charles and a more decent guy you could not find anywhere. Your posts show a serious lack of perspective... something about walking a mile in a man's shoes or somesuch.

Joe

Joe Ducos
Turlock, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 05:17:10 (ZULU)

Guys,

The couseling comment was not meant as a jab. Hell, I've been considering it, lately. It DOES help some people with anger issues. A stranger you never see anywhere but at their office is a pretty good sounding board.

As men, we've gotten old enough to see where some of our "issues" come from, but really have nobody to discuss them with. Really. It'd be weird if one of your fishing buddies started telling you he didn't get hugged enough, wouldn't it?

I was discussing the "being pissed off all the time" issue with a good friend today, and he told me that when he was doing cruises on submarines, that guys would take St. John's wort to keep from getting too pissed and killing each other.

Apparently, My wife thinks I have anger issues too. I mentioned the St. John's Wort when I got home, and she went directly to the store and got some. (She was on her way, anyhow) Cost is about $4-8. I'll let y'all know if I want to beat the shit out of people less in a week or so.

Joe,

As for walking in Charles' or anyone elses shoes, how about they walk in the shoes of people who get financially ruined by tickets for doing the same things they're letting their buddies get away with?

I'm not trying to put anyone's head on a pike here, I'm just sick of the "we have it so tough, you wouldn't understand, blah, blah, we're gonna break the law because we deserve to" crap.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 05:50:50 (ZULU)

Wow. This thing grew up fast. I wasn't even really uupset when I suggested Travis take a pill, but maybe I was on to something. Dude, you got a serious case of penis envy. You are envious of me because I can be such a prick!

Finger....you're right. I AIN'T right. I know it. I embrace it.

Counselling, well, I've been there. Maybe because of the times I've had my boots soaked in blood, or the brains of the 16-year-old boy I pulled out of what was once a car. (WE didn't even know his girlfriend was in the car, she was so folded up in the footwell. I had to go get her parents.) Or the little 8-year-old that died while looking in my eyes, shot by some asshat gangbanger upset because some other asshat "disrespected" him. Perhaps it's the stench of the rotting corpses I've had to go in and identify when the neighbors "haven't seen Mrs. Smith" in a week. In August. I've heard the death rattle so many times it don't even get to me any more. Hey, Travis....you ever go to a botched murder suicide where the 80 year old man screws the pooch because at the last minute he can't put one in the head of his 82 year old cancer-ridden wife? They couldn't afford the medical bills anymore, and decided to go out together. Both of them laying there, sucking air but not knowing it. Yeah, I'm one of those arrogant Texas cops. I get visitors sometimes, oh, about one or two in the morning. They like to come in and sit with me. Yeah, I know about counselling. And I know about prayer. God keeps me sane. Jesus suffered more than me, and he keeps me on an even keel. So, if I get a break from a state trooper, or I give one to another brother cop, kiss my ass. All I want to do is do the best I can, and help all I can. Ask BKS. I ain't even gon into the HALF of it.

If you want to criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Then, when you DO criticize them, yer a mile away, and you got their shoes!

Wow. I guess I need to go smoke a Cuban. To all you other guys, sorry about the rant. It's been a hard year.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 06:22:46 (ZULU)

Click. FAA Blocks old man from boarding a plane with a little metal cross in his pocket.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 06:58:51 (ZULU)

The sight is a waste of bandwidth. You don't have to give 'em a break but it would be courtious. You would appreciate it. It's not a right though, and I don't think most of the LEO's I know take it as a right. They would appreciate the courtesy and with the exception of 1 "who I know would write his mother and has said he would and takes tickets without asking for the courtesy" don't use thier badge to get anything extra and don't expect it. courtesy not necesity.

Gun painting: Do you guys paint your bolts? I know not the bolt face,lugs, but the remainder in the middle. Rear and handle already painted. Mine is stainless and I think if I paint it it will scratch off into the action. I say this cause the jewling is starting to wear off.

Bill: Thanks for your loads, I put them in the book I'm starting for the new rifle. Also prayers continuing to be said, and for the rest of you marrons too. HAAH I think we all need 'em in one way or another. I know I do. Without 'em, I'd been dead or crazy long ago. Now that I mention it, I probably still am the latter, and in my profession you never know when you'll be the former. It's not called the worlds most deadly profession for nuttin.

Jeff Cooepr
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 07:00:25 (ZULU)

Jeff...

I did teflon on my bolts and cooked them in the oven - and it's still there (after all these years ;).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 13:59:24 (ZULU)

Jeff: When I paint my rifles, I paing the bolt as well. No sense in hving something shiny in the middle of all that camo. It hasn't seemd to hurt anything. The only time I have a problem with the paint coming off is when I clean it, the solvent takes it off.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 14:38:21 (ZULU)

Thanks guys, I wasn't sure. I wasw going to try to cold blue it if not paint. It's shiny jeweled, but the jewelling is wearing off "slowly being smoothed out by operation". I'll Leave the bolt face and lugs along with engagemant surfaces taped but the rest will get paint. I think it's going to look good.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 15:04:46 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt,

You don't need to apologize for anything. Thank you for your service.

Duman
Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 15:41:30 (ZULU)

Charle S. Hunt,

<Wow. I guess I need to go smoke a Cuban.>

I hear the Montecristos are good this time of year. Actually, they're pretty damn good any time of the year.

If it weren't so late (and getting cold outside) I'd light one up in your honor.

Take care,

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 04:53:01 (ZULU)

Charles and Lito: Good and bad news. Found out that My 300RUM was a custom shop gun. I only gave $800 in like new condition with a new Zeiss scope on top. There weren't many made. Last year of the Sendero first year of the 300RUM. Basicly 1 year production plus the customs. Not bad as far as I'm concerned. Would like to know what it's really worth. Thats the good news. Bad, the 300RUM uses such a large bolt that there isn't much room in there. Mine was hand fitted and there isn't even room for a single light coat of paint. With just one coat it scrapes down the sides and scrapes the paint off. So I guess it's going to be a shiny jeweled bolt unless it can be blued, or darkened some other way. Other than that, in my opinion, the paint job went off pretty good for a first. Different from most but I like it and I think it will be good at breaking outline. It's got a lot of contrast. The four basic cammo colors with olive as the main but different than the usual blended pattern. Where do you guys go to post pictures for everyone to see?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, Good ole US of A!!! - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 06:15:53 (ZULU)

Jeff...

One of the prettiest bolts I ever saw was jeweled with a micro small bit, then blued - it was the epitome of beautiful understatement.

Just take the bolt to a 'smith and have it blued - you will love it.

A lotta guys go to photo bucket to post pictures.

You can Google "Photo hosting websites" and you will get a bunch.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 12:56:48 (ZULU)

Lito: That's about what I plan to maybe hte Jeweling will show through the blueing. Is that what yours did? Thanks for the photobucket advise. I was wondering about the site as I've seen it used in the past, but didn't know if it was private or something. I'll give it a try, and the photos should soon follow. I want comments cause this is definately a diffeent paint scheme. I've gotta go drop it off in the woods and fields. Hope I don't loose it but hope I do for a minute. Haha

Keep your heads down and powder dry. "Muzzle loader season here"

Jeff "not the Colonal" Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, tn, - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 13:20:10 (ZULU)

Jeff...

>" Lito: That's about what I plan to maybe the Jeweling will show through the bluing."<

It most definitely will.

Tell the smith NOT to polish off the jeweling.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 15:07:38 (ZULU)

All: Here's the links to the painted pictures. I still have a little touch up to do this afternoon, but tell me what you think so far.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Guns/300RUMLS.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Guns/300RUMRS.jpg

Im going to take Lito's advise and get the bolt blued.

Here's my RRA M4A3. They make a sweet shooting gun. Very Accurate for a short barreled AR.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Guns/AR15LS.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Guns/AR15RS.jpg

Thanks, Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 15:42:46 (ZULU)

Lake City Match: What kind of accuracy have you guys been getting out of the actual LCM ammo, not the reloads. Also Have you noticed much of a difference in brass manufactured from different years. Mine is from two different years. After using, I plan on sorting them according to weight, but was wondering about differences in years that might weigh the same. Any observations or suggestions?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 16:46:06 (ZULU)

Last questions for the day I think. Is anyone using the Leupold TMR reticle and what about thier illuminated reticles "good/bad". Also M1 vs. M3. I know they are diferent in that they adjust elevation and windage in different MOA increments. Anyone have problems with 1MOA adjustments. I know that at 1000yds 1 click is ten inches verses 2.5. Has that been a major problem for anyone. I am also considering the 4.5x14x50. I already have the 6.5x20x50 LR/T Mill-dot on my big gun, but wanted to go with the norm on the new .308. Do all Mark 4's have 30mm tubes, or just the "Long Ranges". Feed back please, pros and cons on all.

Thanks, Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 17:45:49 (ZULU)

Jeff,

The TM2 is a little busy when shooting movers but other than that I do like it for miling. Don't worry about the MOA adjustments you will love them if you shoot matches or hunt.

Pat
Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 20:05:22 (ZULU)

Supplemental to earlier thread

DPMS sells an AR15 (M16) magwell dust cap:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=5122&cat=1508

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 23:40:12 (ZULU)

An alternative in many Leupold scopes is the M2 knob, which is half-MOA clicks.

Also, be aware that Leupold M1 scopes, at least all those I've tested to date, are actually quarter-INCH per hundred yards, and not quarter MOA. The difference, with a .308 at 1000 yards, is 2 MOA - which is 20 inches of elevation error.

As long as you know that, they're fine.

My preference is for scopes which adjust in the same system as the reticle is graduated in, i.e., 0.1 milliradian clicks for scopes with mil reticles, and MOA adjustments, whether whole or fractional, for scopes with MOA reticles.

But, that's because I do a lot of work with holdovers and holdunders - I never touch the scope dial inside 700 yards - so that preference won't apply to everyone. Your mileage may, therefore, vary.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 00:21:37 (ZULU)

Pat & Lindy: Thanks. I'm not up on the hole Mil deal. I've got to learn to use the darn thing since I've got it, and am getting another. Reading Kent's stuff now and planning on Mil-dot master. Right now I just lase the target and dial it in, in inches/MOA I've got the cheat for my come-ups on the stock. Just to make sure I've got it strait, The M2 & 3's adjust in Mils and MOA of Mils not 1/4in @100 and MOA of 1/4 in. All the cataloges advertises that they adjust in 1/4MOA for the M1, 1/2MOA for the M2, and 1MOA for the M3, at least on the elevation, and don't refer to millidrans. Is thier information misleading/incorrect? Don't take me wrong, I'm asking this honestly (about MidwayUSA and other advertisements) cause even catalogues make mistakes. SO CONFUSING! And I don't want to buy the wrong scope at over $1000 new starting price. Already got a $1200 scope that I haven't learned to use the reticle in yet. I guess I'm a little lazy, but I can use a laser and convert MOA from 1/4in increments for hunting. Last year a buddy of mine that's ex Delta and now flys cropdusters ran through all the millidran stuff in about 20 minutes and it went in 1 ear, bounced around and went right out the other. I got even and explained for 20 minutes, how the differential corrrection works on our GPS's and keeps us in the field within 1ft of error on our swaths. Now I wish I had listened better and sat him down to teach me. He's in Montana now & is actually a pretty good teacher if the student is in the mood to learn. He deffinately knew his measurement stuff, and probably learned everything I told him about agricultural GPS systems too. One of those people that soaks everything up like a sponge, and retains information forever. That reminds me, I need to give him a call!

Jeff Cooepr
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 01:47:50 (ZULU)

Jeff sent me an email to clear up the confusion. In case anyone else was confused, here is my reply to him:

Leupold, for all practical purposes, does not make scopes which adjust in fractions of a milliradian. Their custom shop will do it - badly. I don't advise that.

BTW, the most common such adjustment is 0.1 milliradian, which amounts to 0.36 inches at 100 yards. People usually use the shorthand of mil for a milliradian, and one mil at 100 yards is 3.6 inches.

The M2 and M3 Leupolds adjust in MOA, the M2 in 1/2 MOA clicks, and the M3 in 1 MOA clicks, except for the windage on the M3, which is in 1/2 MOA clicks.

You can get scopes from Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce, and U.S. Optics which adjust in 0.1 mil clicks, and you'd want them with mil-based reticles.

You can get MOA reticles from Nightforce and U.S. Optics, and you'd probably want those to adjust in MOA or a fraction thereof.

To me, it makes sense to have the scope adjustments in the same system as the reticle is graduated in. That way, there is no need to make conversions between MOA and mils.

The scope I favor is a S&B 4-16X50 with a Premier Gen II mildot reticle, with adjustments in 0.1 mil clicks. It's the same scope the U.S. Marine Corps uses, except that they chose a power range of 3-12.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 03:21:29 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Thanks for all the info and tips on mag well covers/plugs. I've passed them on.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 03:26:12 (ZULU)

Just checking in. See its bash cops time. Back to my hole. Prefer talk of shooting to politics and bashing of cops. Too bad love this place for the folks who have honor and knowledge.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 14:58:28 (ZULU)

Just gotta pass this one on...

Bravo lent me his copy of "Unintended Consequences" a while back and I more than loved it... and now the little booger wants it back!! :((

But I want to read it AGAIN. This morning, I got a 25% off coupon from B&N for one book.

So I called the local B&N and I get this charming lady on the phone who is sweet and delicious sounding.

So I ask her if she has "Unintended Consequences" in stock.

So she says she'll check.

I wait about two minutes, and she comes back on the phone, and in a totally different voice (like a bull dyke clearing a biker's bar), she says, "Is that the one by JOHN ROSS", and I say , "Yes", and she says, "We don't have it!"

Man... I know what it feels like to be a black guy in 1950's Mississippi!

:(((

I'll order it from Amazon :)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 15:21:54 (ZULU)

Gents,

Jeff, one of my bolts is done in Robar NP-3 and the other in Birdsong's "Black-T". I was after rust/corrosion proof finishes. I like both.

'Lito's right. Blueing the bolt is probably the best option.

JC, Lindy, and all. All the come ups on my .308 were figured from actual shooting. Then I had that data transfered to a set of Kenton Industries replacement turrets. There is more need to work with the mil-dot system. I know Rick B. uses a 500 yard zero and mil-dots. Lindy, are you saying you use a 700 yard zero? Can someone explain how that system works for you. I'm getting darn little trigger time and it might be fun to add something new to the bag of tricks.

Elk season begins Saturday. Perhaps I'll get lucky and get one this year. Would settle for a nice spike for some good eating.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 15:24:22 (ZULU)

Jeff UN-Colonel Cooper,

That's a nice RRA carbine. What is the going rate for one of those? Just ballpark, of course. MCMV (My Cost May Vary).

Lito,

I met a gal awhile back, we hit it off pretty well. Then she said something negative about "card-carrying NRA members". I showed her my NRA card, and never saw her again. Heheheheheee.....

You can get it at Amazon, for ~$25, and free shipping:

http://www.amazon.com/Unintended-Consequences-John-Ross/dp/1888118040/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3961704-2124937?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194539760&sr=1-1

Duman
Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 16:37:21 (ZULU)

Wes: I shot a Horus reticle for several years, long enough to get reasonably proficient at holding for wind and elevation simultaneously using the reticle.

However, I developed an intense dislike for HorusVision, for reasons which I will not elaborate on in an open forum. Besides, their reticle is too expensive.

It also occurred to me that the need for fast multiple-target multiple-distance engagements was mostly inside 700 yards. And, having memorized my dope for the Horus so I could shoot fast, I noticed that I could shoot to beyond 600 yards using only holdovers using the 5 mils of reticle marks below the main crosshairs of a Gen II reticle.

I also noted that my dope changes very little at those ranges no matter what the temperature and barometric pressure are, even at significant altitudes.

That means my simple brain only has to remember a single number which doesn't change much if any with conditions, and not which direction to hold. Everything is a hold over.

Outside 700 yards, conversely, one frequently needs more precision in unusual conditions.

So, I developed a hybrid technique. Holdover for everything at 600 yards or less from a hundred yard zero with standard dope, using a Gen II FFP reticle at whatever magnification is appropriate to the range.

At distances greater than 600, dial elevation, using higher magnfications as needed for target visibility and precision, modifying the dope as necessary for atmospheric changes, using a ballistic program - I have the one developed with input from Master Rick among other programs - or tables for different conditions.

For people who shoot only on one-way KD ranges laying flat on the ground during daylight, with plenty of time to dial whatever elevation is appropriate, it's a technique which isn't needed.

It's a technique for gunfighting with a precision rifle. Teaching that is the business I'm in - one of them, anyway.

And with a rifle equipped with a AN/PVS-22, or, better, an AN/PVS-26, it's the shit-hot technique for shooting at night - you never have to adjust the scope. See it, shoot it.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 17:16:11 (ZULU)

I shot a boatload of sniper rifles where the bolt was parked and done in Duracoat. I saw no operational or accuracy issues. I think the protection is worth it.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 17:19:02 (ZULU)

Duman, here is the link

http://www.hdps.org/htm/2-1-1.htm

They are a strange bunch of foreigners, but they were great to deal with. My rifle is down the page some. I tried to call the guy that I delt with on his personal line and it was disconnected. So I'm not sure what's up there. His name was Ed Montana. My FFL buddy that received the rifle for me had a great laugh about him being foreign and called him Tony Montana while doing his best Al Pachino/Scar Face impression. We figure that they are probably political refugees from Israel or some where and had thier names changed when they became citizens. I don't remember how much I paid for it but it wasn't the current advertised price. It is a rock solid gun now. If you get one, go through it and tighten everything. Due to being pulled apart and coated almost everything was left loose when put back together. I actually had the EOTech mounted on the right side of the hand guard and a 3x9x40 Nikon on top for a while for ISPC competition. The hand guard is solid enough to hold the EOTech on aim and stay accurate. I would use the scope for long shots, and then rotate the gun sideways for the fast close up shots. It's different, but it works. I know this is probably too much information, but it was my first internet purchase and it's one of my favorite guns, so I had to tell the story.

Have any of you had any experience with a company called "The Exchange" on gunsamerica? I wrote the guy a letter about wanting to do a swap, and the guy wrote me back about a week later badmouthing my guns that I wanted to swap. How do these people do any business on the internet, taking so long to reply, and then talking bad about others property. The whole internet deal is about fast information exchange and American's need for instant gratification, or at least it is to me. Anyway, I hope he's not friends with anyone here, cause I let him have it. If he is, I apologize to you, but not to your friend. You guys have always been great in helping me, and feeding my need for instant gratification, with quick and intelligent responses. Even when you were "sniping" back at me, as it's been called, it was informative to say the least, if not helpful. I'm one of those people that has a need to learn as much as possible about anything I'm involved in. I want to know everything possible, from all angles or perspectives. Right, wrong, or indifferent, if I know everything possible about a subject, it's easier for me to make up my mind on how I want to look at something or decide on something. I like to be knowledgeable enough about things to argue any side of it, even if it's the wrong side. SunTzu's know more about your enemy than he knows about himself is a rule that I think applies to everything in life, not just your enemies. In sniping, know where your target is headed even if it doesn't. I had to throw that refrence in so yall wouldn't "snipe" me for the off subject commentary.

Thanks Guys for everything, from all sides.

Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 18:50:18 (ZULU)

Duman...

>"Lito,

I met a gal awhile back, we hit it off pretty well. Then she said something negative about "card-carrying NRA members". I showed her my NRA card, and never saw her again. Heheheheheee....."<

HA!, Double HA!!

I went on a date with some cutie I met down at the shore. I use to crew on an ocean going sail boat (A BIG BOAT, WITH BIG SAILS!!!).

This hunny was thrilled with me, and we went out to have a drink.

So we were eating, and drinking, and chatting, and she said something negative about people with guns.

So I mentioned that not all people that own guns are bad - some are real nice... and I was one of the nice ones.

So (getting caught in her shit), she says, "I don't mean people like YOU, I mean those stupid jerks that own a lot of guns, and belong to the NRA.

So (in my calmest voice) I said, "I own over 100 guns, and have been a life member of the NRA since 1965... good night."

I left her with the check ;)))

HA! (Pat would be proud ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 21:33:23 (ZULU)

'Lito,

That cracked me up! I would've had to bag her, first.

MikeMiller,

Nobody's bagging on cops. Just those that are "above the law" or feel entitled to be a dick.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 04:51:09 (ZULU)

Greetings,

Girls and guns: My wife was less than enthsiastic about guns when we met and started dating over a decade ago. But once she got to know me, met my gun toting friends, went shooting a couple of times,

went to some firearms training, attended a few "friends of the NRA" banquets with me, got her own revolver etc, etc, she is quite comfortable amongst the "gun culture". Granted, there are some that will never make the leap. The trick is to to do the sorting at the right time.

You know you got them when she gets you the Dillion reloaidng calender for a stocking stuffer and surprises you with a box of the right caliber/preferred bullet weight premium hunting ammunition!

Pat II
Friday, November 9, 2007, at 05:17:35 (ZULU)

Gents,

'Lito, last chat with Bravo he indicated someone was "holding his copy of Uninteded Consequences hostage". Guess now I know who. Just finished the second re-read of my copy and I know better than to loan it out! Have had similar reactions from book store folks when I was looking for a copy. You'ld have thought I was asking for the "Anarchist's Cookbook".

Lindy, thanks for the info on how you work your hold over system. Something to try this winter after the hunting season. The Horus Vision Reticle is to darn busy for me. Tried one and it gave me a headache. My preference is an uncluttered scope reticle and I find the Gen 1 USMC pattern mil-dot reticle satisfactory for my uses. May upgrade to Gen 2 one of these days...

Just in from the garage getting my gear ready for Saturday's Elk Opener. DAMN, those 275 grain Hornady RN's look good in that .35 Whelan Improved case. Suspect that at 2,500 FPS they should take care of business, if I get a shot.

Nickel Cases: Picked up some Whelan cases when I built the rifle and 100 were nickel. After fireforming I noted that I was getting about 1/2 the case life of conventional brass cases. Not to mention the nickel on the case neck was flaking after a couple uses. Anyone else experience this. All my other cases are brass only.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 05:22:03 (ZULU)

'Lito,

You had her ready and waiting man. You should have hit it, before you quit it.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. bay area, CA, - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 06:23:14 (ZULU)

My experiences with nickel is that they tend to crack at the neck much sooner than brass, some also crack along the length of the case, but this was usually only when I had to size for several rifles, one of which was tightly chambered and said cases were fired in one of the looser rifles, leading to mucho case expansion.

My 357 nickel cases don't last as long as the brass ones, spliting at the case mouth. Still, I average 6-8 reloads from them, which is plenty considering I roll crimp them fairly hard for use with slow powders. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 08:11:33 (ZULU)

Wes,

No experience with nickel cases in a rifle, but, in my revolvers, every time I reload them, there's a handfull that split. They are notorious for splitting and cracking.

Let us know how those 275 gr. bullets work. At 2500 fps, that's gotta be about like getting nailed with the bale spike on a truck doing 70! Hell, take a buddy with a camera along to get the mid-air shots before the Elk land, LOL.

Have you tried the "squeeze me" elk calls? Like a hoochie mama, only better. If you get one, make sure you get the old model, with the rubber ball on the end. The newer ones, while good, sound kinda tinny with the hard plastic end.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 08:53:38 (ZULU)

Travis an' MarcS, on "Baggin' her"...

Well, I gotta fess up. I was so pissed at her original remark about "All the the sickos with guns" that are responsible for all the killings, rapes, child molesting, cancer, bubonic plague, starving children, Ebola, and the ozone hole over the south pole, that I probably couldn't get a stiff weenie with the bitch.

I don't have the words to express how much abject contempt I have for anti-gun bitches that "know it all" about gun people.

In hindsight, I think the $90 dinner and bar tab was better revenge, cuz she was left sitting there, embarrassed... and then had to find a way home, cuz her girl friend had already left with the car to go back to New Yawk City (where the fuck else ;)

... and I was nailin' somebody else at the time, anyway.

OK, Wesley. I can take a hint - I'll get the book back to Bravo this weekend. It is one of the best books I have ever read.

;))

I have a couple hundred nickeled 308 cases, that started out 308, lived as 7mm-08 for a few years, and then went back to 308 for another riffle... and they are still good.

I "think" that I read that the the nickeling process can harden brass if it's not done right, or if they are not annealed after, or something like that - I have annealed that set of nickeled brass once (when going back to 308)... no splits and no flakes.

I use nickeled brass sometimes to know which rifle the stuff belongs to. I have it in .223 and 308, and some pistol calibers.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 11:20:46 (ZULU)

Gooooooooood Mooooooooooorrniiiin Sniper Country!!!!!!!!!

Nickle plated cases are just that, plated. If you fire formed them to another cartridge you streched the brass but nickle doesn't strech as easy. Therefore it peals, and 'lito was on the money about plating and hardening of brass. I've got some that I've reloaded about 5 times for my 300RUM that are fine but I'm only necksizing them. All of the nickel is gone from the necks. I used to have a lot of my handgun cases crack though, especially splitting at the mouth. We shot so many back then that we didn't keep round counts on them. We just threw them away when we saw damage. I was shooting 210 rounds a day through my ISPC gun. 10 Mags @ 21 rounds each, every day religiously.

http://www.myexcusedabsence.com/

You really can get everything on the internet. Now I just want a job that accepts doctor excuses. Last time I got sick during flying season I wnet straight to the doctor and was back in 2 hours at work. And pissed that while gone I missed making probably $450-500 in pay. If I had, had a doctors excuse maybe my partner would have felt sorry for me and given it to me out of his pocket. Instead he handed me a stack of corridinates and yelled over the noise of my plane, which he had cranked when I told him I was on my way back, "get back to work, we're both loosing money". Maybe the dogs I have in training would have said "it's OK that you didn't feed us" you had an excuse from the doctor. Haha, Whatever.

I want to be a "Desk Jocky" for a while. You know, the kind that no one misses when they're gone for a week. ha ha. Whatever! I wouldn't swap my job for any that comes to mind, 'cept for maybe a winter run with Triple Canopy. Anyone have any connections there? I didn't have enough "doccumented full-time" experience for Blackwater. Guess I ought to be glad now, cause that's sure where I wanted to spend this winter. We've had it really bad because of the drought here in the south. It's been the worst flying season since I started in '92. Why did I pick this year to buy a house and land, and pay for it in cash to save on the interest cash. Payments sure sound nice if I'd left about $20,000 in the bank to make them with and get through the winter. I feel like one of those old women on a fixed social security income. 1K on the first and 15th of each month left from what I made this flying season sure don't streach very far. I guess I should be thankful for that though.

I'm thinking of taking up truck driving in the off season. Sounds like fun running all over the country and seeing the sights that I've never seen. My flying service partner has an extra OTR truck he'll let me use, so I can work when I want, and pick my loads. Maybe I can pick them to coinside with matches and get to meet some of you guys in my travels. If anyone's ever around my neck of the woods, look me up and stop by. We'll go shoot a few rounds or something. I've got a range/airplane runway to 1000yds or more just 30 minutes away form the house that I have complete controll over.

Wife and guns: she is terrified of even touching them. It's one of those irrational fears, and she knows it. Like I've said before "only moves the one on the bedside table to dust under it". But, She doesn't have anything aginst them, or me having and shooting them, and the daughter that I have previously refered to, isn't actually mine, although I treat her as though she is. She is the wife's from a previous marrige. The wife doesn't mind if I let her shoot the guns, train her about the guns and hunting, or anything else gun related for that matter. She knows it's important for the daughter to understand them, and be able to safely handle/use them if she's going to grow up with one in every corner of the house. I like it that way. Also, if my wife actually liked shooting I'd cost me soo much more in ammunition. I might miss out on some shooting time of my own.

Have a good day everyone, and be safe. No stupid questions for me today, but I'd still appreciate more responses for the ones I previously posted.

Jeff UN-Colonel Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN , These great US of A - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 13:50:47 (ZULU)

Jeff (the UN-Colonel),

What part of TN is Gadsen in? Whatya flying? I used to fly for a living too. That all ended after 9-11-01. Flew light planes for about five or six years. Flew cargo on B727s and DC8s from the mid 80s til 2001. I am a police officer now a days. In my fifth year now in this new and final career. We had TASER training today. Pretty interesting stuff. Got the night off tonight, and back to work tomorrow night.

Bill Bledsoe

Bill Bledsoe
Northern, Kentucky, USA - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 23:18:59 (ZULU)

Gents,

Travis, that 275 gr .358 bullet kills...out of both ends. Think I misplaced the wheels and lanyard somewhere in the garage...;-)

The nickel brass is going to go away when it gives up the ghost. Have seen ALL the problems described by you folks. Neck spliting, nickel flaking/wearing of the necks, etc. Besides, I like the look of brass cases better.

'Lito, Unintened Consequences is probably one of the best novels I've ever read. John Ross was masterful in his research that supported the story line. One thing about it, you'll never look at government the same after reading.

More later. Have to pull my gear together.

To all Marines on the list, Happy Birthday Nov 10th. Thanks to all who have served this Veteran's Day. Would like to put in a plug for those who supported us while we were deployed. Thanks, it makes it all worth while.

Semper Fi

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 00:19:45 (ZULU)

Flying: Family gives me weird looks when I reply to THAT question, "Hell no, I ain't interested in flying..." It's easy to figure out if you been around heli's enough to shit an engine or tranny in flight. I kinda stopped after 9/11 too---although I think for differing reasons; I reverted back to an older skill-set:))

As I read thru the posts, it occured to me that between my wife and I--we can't seem to keep a job!

Her: LEO into photography into truck driving. I went from log weenie to SOCOM stuff to freelance mission observer for new doctrine. That last one was the stuff of dreams...

Jeff: I got saddled with enough "desk" in a few recent jobs prior to retirement---all i can say is "best wishes" bro. They drove me nutz. Or finished the job...at any rate, at some level of paygrade, the desk follows yer ass around close! I hated that.

Women and guns: Hurumph. I win:)) Wife's second date (before i got demoted to husband) was combat fishing on sheep creek. Not long later that year, she shows up with a 300WM asking if she can go shoot 'Bou with my buds and I. Figured she was a keeper. We recently took turns spotting for each other in BL adv. sniper one where I learned that she has better form in position shooting than I ever will. I've married well...indeed.

Unintend/ Consq: That copy Lito read had my finger prints on it:)) I recommend this book---if you know how to read, then read it. Whatya waiting for? For some reason, I think that there is an agent somewhere who googles that title now and then to see who says what and where! See what a book can do to your paranoia? Heheh. Actually, I DO believe that!

"abject contempt I have for anti-gun bitches that "know it all" about gun people"

Lito, come'on--these are enlightened liberals yer talking about! They be the folks who cornered the market on "Tolerance, acceptance and understanding without moral judgements." Trust me, I heard them say this is so just today on CNN.

Click my name for a read on the military's self-inflicted wound of investigating every damn bullet fired in war. Back in spring/ summer 2004, I was handling a few of these---and bitching about it here. I guess the "I want to make it better" goal I had can be summed up with those 15-6 investigations: I "made it better for the few who were targeted" by their commanders. Heheh. I may not have changed much--but I have those little positive outcomes:)) Oh...I was doing alledged murder charges...for straight legit shootings/ pure ass self defense. Ya'll would have to read a report (usually 12 pages less attachments and exihibits) to get an idea of how bad this stuff gets. I did a little over-kill (so to speak) on these to ensure that all arm-chair asshat lawyers would or could find any remote cause to re-open any of these cases. Shit, I did that on the very first one---and the CJSOTF CO liked that effort so much, i sorta inherited them all!

I get ranted-up on this stuff---cause the AARs pretty much covered the same fact-sets I came up with, less sworn testimony. In other words, I was running all over Iraq, taking rounds (and losing two rides)---for nuthin but Sanchez's chickenshit inability to trust his subordinate officers' written word. That pissed me off. Especially when it got hairy. I remember thinking at the time "Here Lies Joe, he died honorably while questioning the veracity of a battle hardened commander for the careerist pukes in Camp Victory..." We had all had a good laugh on that one, once clear of the shooting.

But yeah, it is that bad...and it hasn't changed much lately from what I am seeing.

I gotta get some sleep. I still have an unfilled tag.

Joe M
Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 02:20:17 (ZULU)

My wife is a graduate of a combat handgun course taught by an Aussie SAS trooper, and more than half the year we are resident on a 1500 yard shooting range. And she puts up with me.

If that's not a keeper, there ain't none such.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 03:07:41 (ZULU)

Bill Gadsden is in West Tennessee, about 15 minutes Northwest of Jackson, Tn by car. About 5 in an ag plane. This past year I logged around 700 hours in an AirTractor 301. Got about 8000 in Ag planes alone. I don't bother to log regular planes anymore, cause I've finally got enough time that I pretty much qualify to fly anything with 1 engine. Would like to get some big Type ratings though. Was gonna get a DC3 rating but got a job and had to leave before I finished. I took a plane and pay cut to come back to Tennessee. I was flying 502 Air Tractor in Arkansas till year before last. A guy I knew died of a heart attack and left his son the business I now work for. He doesn't fly and gave me a Cessna Ag Wagon to take to Arkansas last year and told me to put it to work and he would get rid of his pilot and put me in the 301 this year, which he did. We are buying a 510 Thrush this winter for next year. I wanted to come back to Tennessee cause I'm addicted to deer hunting and where I was in Arkansas there weren't any. So I told him I'd take the job if he bought me the turbine by next year and let me hunt his farm. Got 4 deer so far this year. Just got one this afternoon. So far he's been good at his word. I haven't told him I would have come even without the turbine Thrush, and when we get it my production will go up and so will pay. We get payed on a percentage of gross.

Joe I did the chopper thing for a year, spraying in Kansas without a roter rating. Decided I didn't like it caues when spraying you are always in the "dead mans curve". So I never bothered to get the rating. Besides, The FAA never comes to the field to do ramp checks, and I never went to airports. We had a Nurse Truck that followed me around. Flew a Hillar. Not too many trany problems, but it's still a continental engine stood up on end. Any time you stand an engine 90 degrees from the way it was designed to run you've got problems. By the way, I was kidding, there's no way you'll ever catch me behind a desk unless I put one in my deer stand to use for a rest.

We got grounded then un grounded then grounded and back again for a month after 9-11. I lost $20K for that month, but I can't complain cause a lot of people lost a lot more, and are still losing due to the aftermath.

Pat II it helps. I've had mil dots for the last 10 years just never bothered to learn to use them. I know that sounds rediculus. I'm starting to get it now though with everyones help.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 04:06:56 (ZULU)

Travis asked about a place for XD trigger work. This link was sent to me. I have no experience, yet, with this guy, but he looks promising. Thanks to the guy who sent it.

springerprecision.com

Lindy, have you actually looked through a PR Gen II XR reticle yet? I'm hoping it's as good in person as it is in a picture.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 04:15:11 (ZULU)

Tony: haven't looked through one in glass, yet.

It's an interesting reticle. However, the group deal on Sniper's Hide was only for a reticle swap in S&B scopes you already owned - for a premium price, like $400. So, you're paying an additional price over the price you already paid for a S&B.

At that price, for me, it's not interesting. Your mileage may vary.

I think a GAP reticle in an S&B would be a great reticle, too, if that were possible. Since it's a U.S.O. reticle, I expect it's not.

I do just fine with a Gen II. Until there's a better reticle at a reasonable price in an S&B scope, I'll hang with what I have.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 15:16:45 (ZULU)

Follow up on tranny problems in flight: Obviously, they did not come apart in flight;)) I'm still here! Both were chip lights, no burn off. Happened in a Huey and later, in a warrior. Pucker factor, cuz of all the time you have to think on it. In fact, my last flight at Bragg was that warrior tranny---the PIC discussed continuing the flight. We didn't. On inspection, one of the planetaries was fracturing along a cut. Lose a tranny--game over. At least on the engine failure, we still had some rotor. My first PL was a flight control malf; had all the forward cyclic we wanted--but none back. They found a screw under the mixing bell, but prior to that, the IP found his flashlight wedged behind his control arm:))

Four times. I was more afraid of being thought scared than I was sensible. I kept going back for more. But after 9/11, i did not fight too hard when other jobs away from the cockpit came calling.

I think it may be saying something that i would rather be tooling around a-stan or Iraq in up-armors (or sedans-heheh) than flying!

Spinning a wing is just plain unsafe.

Morning hunt: Made a scent trail and used a doe bleet call. About an hour into it, a buck came snorting up the woodline. It sounded like a hog, snorting away. Hell---it WAS a hog! Ferral pig, maybe 300 pounds worth! I have heard of these in the county---and there it is. Never had a shot as the pig wasn't on the scent that woulda put him in a position to get shot. I think that black and tan SOB ran off the deer, too. That, or the winds did us in after sun-up when they shifted to the east. easterlies aren't common, and i kinda plan for common winds. Oh well.

I called DNR, and they have an APB out on these pigs---shoot on sight, no paperwork or fees to worry about. I suppose they are a bigger problem than I thought.

Next up: late afternoon overwatch. My nephew is a patient little cuss. Heheh, he'd still be sitting out there if i hadn't froze my ass off.

Joe M
Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 15:25:53 (ZULU)

Looks like this shooting site has turned into an aviation site. That’s okay as my wife swears guns and flying go together. I was a professional (flight instructor, crop duster, corporate) pilot from 1957 until 1994. Really enjoyed my flights to South Africa. Even managed to set up a 10 day hunt there. Still enjoy flying

HDR
OK, - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 15:29:52 (ZULU)

Question on old Trapdoors. I have been looking to add one to my collection. It would be the oldest US piece I have and before my 98 Krag.

I have found a site that sells them for folks and is dedicated to the 45-70 Springfield. http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/classified.html

He seems straight up as I have spoke to him a few times through e-mail. Has anybody done any business with him? Just wondering.

Happy Birthday Marines and a great Veterans Day to all who have served.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 16:19:55 (ZULU)

Anyone know of any good long distance ranges in the Central Florida? Looks like I may end up relocating to the Tampa Bay area. Doing recon early. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Str8shot

Str8shot
south central, MI, USA - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 22:06:33 (ZULU)

Str8shot,

e-mail out to ya

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 22:38:23 (ZULU)

I tryed to order a copy if UC at B&N last month, and was told it was out of print. Saw John Ross a couple of days later on the outdoor channel shooting a .750 Gibbs or some such... and he didn't mention it.

My wife bought me the Rock Chucker kit last month for my B-day. I have 4 reloading manuals, and two days ago a box of 155 scenar's showed up. Still waiting on dies and shell holders. I've been puting-off starting to reload for 30 years cause I new once I started I'd be hooked ; )

Happy VD..... um, I uh mean Veterans Day ; )

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 02:40:54 (ZULU)

Joe Feral hogs are shoot on sight here in TN also. They are a cancer of the woods. They tear up everything, eat up whatevers left and you're probably right about them running off the deer. I can't count how many I've killed. You wouldn't believe what they can do to a wheat field. When I was a kid we used to bolt lawn chairs to the tops of combines when cutting wheat. We'd ride on top with '06s' and head strait to the back of the field when we started on them. Probably killed over a hundred that way. Not very sporting but they literally rooted up acres of wheat. Probably lost 50 acres a year to the hogs.

Last whirrly bird I flew was a little bell a couple years ago. Test flew it to check the spray system for the owner. He didn't fly choppers but had that one for a government contract he had. It checked out fine. The next day his brand new pilot showed up from Fla and as he took off on his first ride the tranny exploded and took out the gas tank, which in turn went all over the hot engine and came down in a ball of flames. Luckily he had only gotten about 5 feet of the ground when it happened. Came down sideways roter exploded and he jumped out and ran as the burning hulk flopped around for what seemed like eternity. CRAZY!!!

Flew 502 Air Tractor with a PT6-34 for couple hundred hours with the chip light on 3 years ago. The alternative was a radial 450 Ag Cat. I just couldn't give up the airconditioner in the 502.

HDR '57-94 How much dusting time in Stearmans have you got? Maybe some cut back cub time also. Just kidding. I've got a couple hundred in a Bull Stearman, but it wasn't a duster. Ever heard of Dick Reade from Mid-Continent. He was a WWII P38 pilot that dusted from then till about 10 years ago. I eat lunch with him 2 or 3 times a year. Been trying to talk him into letting me in his T6 but that hasn't happened. Now he has gotten so old his insurance won't let anyone ride with him that doesn't have 1500 hrs in a T6 and could be covered on his policy. I'm about 1480 short.

Now to guns. Got the Win M70 HV today. Got it home at dark, and spent an hour cleaning and putting the scope on. Went out and shot 10 rounds of LCM 170. 3/4 at 100 with a flash light lighting the target. I love to shoot that way. Complete darkness except for the target. No distractions. Only problem is I've got Burris bases and Leupold rings on it, the only thing I had laying around. Gotta change them as soon as the gun shop opens Tuesday. I'll get badger as soon as I'm sure the bridge isn't gonna need machining down. Elevation's all the way up except for 2 clicks and it's still 3 inches low. Gotta be the different ring/base combination, at least I hope so. But groups are great so I'm happy about how it shoots and I haven't even started loading for it yet. I'm sure they will shrink even more. Will do trigger tomorrow and bed as soon as my compound comes in from MidwayUSA.

4i's I hate to hear that about the book. After hearing so much about it I was going to go get a copy. And you're right about being hooked. My wife says if I could I'd live in the shop and sleep om the reloading bench. I've got a 10x20 wall almost wall papered with 8 1/2 x 11 targets.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 04:55:09 (ZULU)

All Hell has broken loose at the house. The shit has hit the fan. Wife says she won't let me go to A-stan of Iraq. Too dangerous!!! I figure there are 50,000 troops in the sand box for a year. In the last year there have been 1086 confirmed deaths. Thats approximately 1 in 50. In Arkansas there are about 100 crop dusters, probably way less. Last year 7 of them died and that was a good year. In 2006 there were 11. Not to slight all the great service men and women that serve our great country, and give thier lives to protect our rights and freedoms but I can't see how 1 in 50 is more dangerous than 3.5 in 50, or 1 in 10 for 2006. And the money if you are contracting is about the same as cropdusting. I would imagine the contractor rate of death is even less cause they are just guarding convoys and stuff. Don't take me wrong guys it's just that my wife, thats so good about my flying job, has gone nuts about me want a contracting job for the winter. She wants me to drive a big truck and stay here and be safe. She'll cool down soon though. Nothing to worry about.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 06:00:25 (ZULU)

4i's and Jeff Cooper,

Try Amazon.com. They have UC in hardcover for $25 plus change.

Jeff - You're not that far from Memphis. One o' these days we need to visit.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 06:09:12 (ZULU)

What would be the best way to go about becoming a chopper pilot? I live in Wichita, so there are plenty of schools, I guess, but I don't know if they're all run by dumbasses or not.

Also, what kinda qualifications would I need to get a job flying?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 06:58:11 (ZULU)

Gents,

If you want a copy of UC you might want to try:

http://www.john-ross.net/

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 07:15:25 (ZULU)

Read this. Click my name.

Travis Morgan
Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 09:08:14 (ZULU)

snopes on "collapse of the United States" article:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 13:52:40 (ZULU)

Jeff Cooper: I only dusted two seasons in a Stearman with a P&W 450 engine. GI Bill paid for my Commercial and Flight Instructor, but I needed money to pay for Instrument and Multi engine. Had just got married and money made instructing just made ends meet. I never heard of Dick Reade

HDR
OK, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 14:54:21 (ZULU)

To All Mathamiticians. The height from the receiver to the bottom of my scope at the front ring is .485 inches. The height at the rear is .618 inches from receiver to bottom of scope Both measuerments taken at the ring. There are 3.348 inches between the rings. My question is, how much does the scope need to be raised at the rear ring to equal 60 inches at 100 yards. As stated in previous post I'm hitting 3 inches low at 100 with only 1/2 inch of adjustment left. A 20 MOA taper isn't going to get it. I think I'm going to shim the rear with a piece of aluminum from a drink can for right now but I'm headed to the gun show in a few hours and taking the gun and caliper with me to do some checking, maybe laike I mentioned earlier. I'll get the good bases next spring after I start flying and get off the fixed budget, but was curious if anyone here was up on thier geometry enough to give me amathmatical answer to the base/ring question for now.

JC thanks I'll get on Amazon this afternoon. And, my personal shooting range is 7 miles off I40 at exit 42. Do you ever go out to MSSA and shoot? I was a member there for a while but they were so restrictive about using the 600yd range that it wasn't worth the hassle. When I quit shooting ISPC, I let my membership go. We'll have to get together and shoot or something some time. I get to Memphis about once or twice a month. Just moved from the

Whitten/Macon road area this spring. I've lived in and out of Memphis for the last 20 years. I love it in the country and am so happy to finally get a house to stay permanently out in the country. I shoot any time I'm ready day or night and only have to step out the back door to get to my 100 yd range.

HDR the Stearman are a blast to fly. They do everything SLOW. but they are great fun in slow motion, and with the 450 they will do anything you want to do, just slowly. I haven't got an instrument or multi yet. Will probably get both next winter. I've never needed them for crop dusting, but my new boss has people planes that I can use any time I want for free, so it's time to get the ratings and take my family in style on vacations. A cessna 185 is a great plane to fly with family but a Barron is a lot nicer and all I pay for is fuel so why not get my liscenses.

Travis maybe the other pilots can give you an answer but getting in to crop dusting is all but impossible now days due to insurance requirements, and will cost you about $25,000 and take 4 months at the school in Georga. Getting your ratings for choppers is even more expensive. WAY more. I couldn't tell you where to start. I learned in the field with chopper duster pilots for free but that doesn't happen anymore since 9-11. I haven't got the ratings either, just flew without and was careful not to get caught. figured if I ever went down I'd be dead so whaat would it matter then. They gonna send my body to prison? Haha All I've ever wanted to do was crop dust, so I got the minimum I could to get to do that. The ONLY reason I'll add other ratings is for the fun of flying the bigger planes, and to take my family on vacations. The only other thing, is if I go to Columbia and fly for the DEA drug erradication program. They want you to have all the ratings to do that and speak spanish also.

Later guys, getting reasy for the gun show. If anyone figures out the math quiz give me a shot quick cause I'll be looking at equipment at the show. Also, any requests send me a e-mail with phone number. I'll look for them your items while there and call you if I see them. I can buy and ship to you if you're sure you want something.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 16:25:25 (ZULU)

Jeff: if you're planning to put the shim under the rear of the base, what's the length of the base?

Another good source of shim material is to take apart a feeler gauge.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 16:46:30 (ZULU)

Ha! Wife preempted my hunting by stealing my new ghillie and going after turkey while I was making the necessary coffee! All's fair, i guess. I figured she deserves it since she works and I don't. She passed up on a shot she could have made (#4 shot carries better than the 7 she used last year)--but she needs to pattern that combo before she tries it. Which she is doing right now:))

Yesterday, I laid a crow to rest at 297 yards in a 16mph cross wind. Okay, he gave me a follow up that normally you do not get with crows:)) And, it was a lucky ass shot. The usual 168 BHs out of the old SPR.

While the set up was still on the ground (mat, LRF, gun, ammo)---that large buck walked across the field sniffin'. Fortunately, he was dumber than i was--I did nothing. But, as he hit a marshy edge--he kicked up a yote. By the time i got down in position, there was no shot. That was weird--a buck and a yote within 125 yards, and we were running a circular saw at the time!

All that carrying/ placing/ set ups stuff made me all the more intent to get a handier 308 to share the target loads with.

I stumbled across a .308 Howa 1500 in a green pillar bed Hogue stock. They have a combo pack with a el-cheapo appearing scope (a 3-10x42 Nikko-Stirling Nighteater, whatever that is) for under $500, and the rifle alone is $399 at this shop, NIB. The owner mentioned a local department bought a few packaged deals for tactical use. The rural sheriffs do not have the funds for better stuff, and this choice may mean something I am unfamiliar with. I also know that Wes likes these actions---ain't sure about what Sir Wes thinks of the whole rifles. Another point I heard is that the Howa 1500 action is dimensionally identical to rem 700s for scope bases.

I also learned that enough M84 longmaster owners are disappointed with accuracy to say "not worth the expense." That price giving you well over 1 MOA, as in 1.5 to 2.5 MOA with factory match loads; well, no thanks.

So, anyone shoot Howas? My standard for a walking .308 will be ~3/4 MOA accuracy with either 168s or 175s, hand loaded to suit. Is a stock Howa 1500 with a little trigger adjustment in this league? Do they take Rem 700 bases without fuss?

I am also turning my 223 stealth into a night stalker...I have a weaver one piece that fits this action. Will it handle moderate use with a 3.5lb night site on it? Or should i get something better made?

Joe M
Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 18:18:36 (ZULU)

Jeff:

An elegant answer for vertical offset it to use the Burris Pos-Align rings. Plastic inserts in various offset are available, and gimble inside the ring which minimizes scope tube stress. Also have related benfit that you can easily offset for windage at the same time, which permits getting a good mechanical windage zero. Minimizes ring marks too, a good thing.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1730&title=SIGNATURE+RINGS

'Lito gives them a thumbs up too :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 18:23:15 (ZULU)

Joe:

The Howas are well-respected. You ask a good accuracy question, but it's primarily related to the quality of the factory barrel, not the action.

On mounts, Cabelas chart says the Interarms Howa 1500 has the same spacing as a Rem 700. That may be a long action.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/purchase/products-found.jsp?_requestid=40519

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 18:38:37 (ZULU)

Lindy it's a two iece base and is 1.2 exactly. Didn't think of feeler guage but that would be perfect. I may have to lap the rings a bit after shimming. After hunting season I'm gonna check to see if the action is within specs. If it's not I'll have some taken off the top of the front. After that I'll get the Leup Mark4 or Badger 20MOA tapered base if they make it for a Winchester. Can't remember seeing one but I haven't looked for one yet either. I've just gottta wait till I get money rolling in next year. For now My daughter will be hunting with it and me just target practicing, so it'll be OK till then with a shim in back. I'll take a look at Rods suggestion too, I'm just a little leary of ring inserts for some irrational reason.

Joe Kimber gives a guarentee so they ought to back it. I've never had problems with them not fixing things, especially for the ammount of money they charge. But, if you're looking for a toss around the truck gun the Howa's price sounds right. I've got a NEF for that type of gun. If it gets banged around I'm not gonna cry

Later guys,

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 19:11:45 (ZULU)

Jeff:

The inserts are especially good for 2-piece bases.

If you shim just one end of a two-piece base, it puts a lot of stress on the tube unless lapped.

The inserts avoids the requirement for lapping, and tend to be less expensive and easier to acquire than a sloped base too.

Give the Pos-aligns a serious look, it's a good system.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 20:20:48 (ZULU)

Jeff: for the reasons Rod noted, I wouldn't try to shim a 2-piece base. I don't like lapping rings.

Badger does make bases for Winchester short actions - I have them on both of my Model 70 HBVs. Brownell's normally stocks them.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 20:46:35 (ZULU)

Jeff C:

I shoot at MSSA at least once a week. On the NEW 600 range BTW. It's far less restrictive than it used to be. The old 600 yd range has been partially taken over by Sporting Clays and all that's left is a 200 yd range. The new 600 yd. range is at the far west end of MSSA and is oriented North-South so there's no more shooting into the afternoon sun. Some of us retired old farts and some other guys that can get off go out every Monday morning and shoot. Gets us away from the formality of an organized match. It's mostly F-Class, but a few benchrest shooters show up from time to time. We usually gather at the club house between 0830 and 0900, go shoot for an hour or so, and then back to the club house for the second half of the bull session. So if you're down this way on a Monday morning come on out and say hello. Hope you can make it out.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 22:08:23 (ZULU)

Jeff: Kimber can back them all they want; I'll stick with their pistols. If i want to send a gun out straight away, it'll be a 700ADL to George's shop. I can't see rolling the dice with a high-end rifle, knowing that if i do get a lemon I can wait for the factory to make it right. At that price, I would gravitate to Sako (default option always). I'm looking to broaden my mind on new manufacturers---rather than just plopping myself right into my comfort zone. My bang-around guns don't get banged much at all: I mastered that trick in Iraq. I suspect that we are talking the same here: "Functionally cleaned when needed, scratching and scaping when unavoidable, but otherwise careful of the mechanics and function, and damned careful with the sights and devices."

My limited search on Howas shows much praise. In hand, this Howa in the hogue rubberstock seemed reasonable: though it reminded me of the savage synth-stock by being a little flimsy up front. It does maintain clearance off the barrel just laying there. I wouldn't stress it too much in any case, though Geoff M's stiffening trick might make it better with a sling.

I may just get this thing! I'll pass on the "kit gun" though...unless one of you chaps wants a "nighteater" scope for some reason.

Rod: I agree a good barrel goes a long way in accuracy---but I would insist that no barrel will shoot worth a damn if it isn't anchored well. Also agree wholehearted on the burris signature zee's. I have a set waiting on my next rifle to come home. Howa? Maybe....

Speaking of not shooting worth a damn: A LR308 (DPMS)--set up exactly like my .260 version will not group. The owner of that small gunshop was so impressed with what we can do with my .260, he went and got one in his all-time favorite caliber. He also got a lemmon. It would put two nearby just at or barely under and inch, then stick one off to 2" in random directions. It did it for him, me, on the bench bagged on both ends, on the bipod...with 168s, 175s MKs, 165 GKs, 168 amaxs, 147 FMJs (oh, terrible groups here)...only one ten shot group bested 1.6", only one five shot group bested 1.1"--and most ten-shot strings were at or over 2"! It started off as a break-in session (shoot clean etc)--and it mattered not if it was fouled or pristine. It just wouldn't tighten up. Badgers and a NF topped it...and then my proven NF and an older VXII tactical orphan scope, and ARMS rings just for giggles. Zeroing each time was a swag. Crown looked Ok under a magnifier...and it did have rifling in there too....it just wouldn't play like the cousin .260.

While I am pleased with my DPMS, I won't be praising them as a "must buy" as much. FWIW, the factory exchanged it--though he went with the short barrel carbine style this time. That 24" duece-and-a-half axle they call a target barrel is HEAVY! Caveat emptor...I did OK with the DPMS big AR--your mileage will vary it seems.

This session was part of my write-up on the DPMS .260--which is mostly a puff-piece til now. Now, I feel I should not be so praise-worthy on them. Statistically, two samples does not make a trend one way or the other. Maybe I should add this new data in and pass it on to reviews anyway?

Joe M
Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 22:08:45 (ZULU)

"That 24" duece-and-a-half axle they call a target barrel is HEAVY!"

LOL...First laugh of the day.Yeah they are.Got alot of satisfaction bloodin mine on a 50yrd runnin doe with an offhand shot.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi., USA - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 22:37:08 (ZULU)

Joe:

The Savage bolt guns are reputed to have good barrels out of the box for a factory gun. If you're looking for a reasonable dollars unit for hunting that is likely to have an acceptable accuracy barrel the Savage would be my suggestion today. You can also rebarrel yourself because of the way they are headspaced from the factory, so that opens up later options.

http://www.savagearms.com/centerfire_home.htm

For example, the 11F available in .308Win w/synthetic stock, blued and 22" 1/10 brl has sugg retail of $539, so "street" price would be somewhat lower. Comes drilled and tapped. They have packaged products, but I assume you would rather pick your own mount and optic.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 22:50:13 (ZULU)

Joe: both my Howas will shoot one-hole groups all day long, as long as I do my part. The factory stock came with some chintzy-assed pressure stud under the bbl at the forward sling swivel mount, I just ground it off and then free-floated and bedded the action in the factory stock. Haven't had anything but sweet shooting, since.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 01:14:45 (ZULU)

Good deal here. Win. .308 HBV..not mine, just passing it along.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=480700

KImbershooter
Disputanta, Va., USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 01:14:59 (ZULU)

Here we go: I'm going to take advise. Burris standard rings, and a .020 offset kit. That will get me .040 if the set is two .020 inserts. If not I'll get the kit and use the .020 and the .010 for .030 total. Here's where I'm not sure. I can get a 20 MOA base, or use the 2 piece bases that I already have and shim the rear. With the Burris rings shimming won't require lapping. I just need to know if .040/.030 in the rings plus the 20MOA base will get me the 50-60MOA that I need to be able to get the most elevation out of the scope. Does anyone know how much .040/.030 will get in MOA? Next summer I'm putting a Leupold LR of some type on it and Burris doesn't make the offset inserts for 30mm tubes. Great. "And I thought Mil-Dots were a confusing pain in the rear?!?!" At least the gun shoots good.

Rod thanks for the book. It's good so far. I may have to order it from Amazon though. Don't know if my eyes will take 780 pages of computer screen reading.

Gun Show: An absolute bust! I did have a guy offer me a grand for the Winchester. Probably should have taken it and bought a new Rem 5R, but I kinda like it for some reason. Maybe cause I know how it shoots.

That rifle mentioned in the post above mine is the same thing I've got. Not a bad deal if it shoots like mine and doesn't have the elevation problem I've got. Anyone recognize the base?

Bet you guys wish I'd find a chat room or something, good night for tonight.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 02:22:45 (ZULU)

For hunting use, there is one cheaper alternative even to Savage......Stevens. They have a Model 200 bolt gun out that is drawing rave reviews. It is made by Savage, in the Savage plant. It is a Savage 110 (long action) with a grey stock instead of black, a normal trigger instead of the accutrigger, and a reportedly excellent Savage made barrel with their barrel nut system. MSRP is $317. I just ordered one from a local shop, for $289 plus tax and background check fee. As an aside...Wal Mart wanted $329 ordering through Davison's.....someone is lining their pockets there.

I went with .270 as an ideal cartridge for hunting in Joe's back 40.....I'll be able to hold over or under a few inches max and plant the shot where I want it from one end of each hunting zone to the other. Will have it in hand Wednesday, zero it and report back.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 04:13:13 (ZULU)

http://www.twincityrodandgun.com/PDF%20files/GuidetoBoresighting.pdf

Quoting from the article:

"For typical mount spacing, the point of aim changes 3/4 MOA per each 0.001inch of shim"

So using the "20" Pos-align inserts in the front and rear would yield 2*20*0.75 = 30 MOA

A 20MOA base wouldn't have given you that much.

How much elevation adjustment is available in your optic?

Typically you offset roughly 50% of the adjustment range, which means the bottom end of the scope adjustment is close to a 100 yd zero. That then gives you the full elevation adjustment for ranges up to 1000 yds.

In .308Win with a good loading and a long barrel, you will need almost 40 MOA adjustment between a 100 and a 1000yd zero.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 04:19:43 (ZULU)

Jeff,

You might want to re-check your info on Burris not making ring offset inserts for their 30 mm rings. I have a set of their Signiture Zee rings with (20 minute)inserts in 30mm.

jc is telling you right; The old stiff necks are mostly gone from the MSSA scene. COME ON DOWN!

Don Black
Rossville, Tn, USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 04:38:14 (ZULU)

Geoff M:

That sounds like a dynamite deal on the Stevens 200.

I have a Savage 110 in .308 Win that was enhanced for long range F-class.

- Synthetic stock reinforced and bedded.

- Sharpshooter's Supply replacement trigger

- Mike Rock 5R brl

(and other stuff bolted on).

I don't feel limited by the rifle when shooting matches.

If the 110 action is up to that, it should make great hunting rifle.

.270 is certainly a respectable hunting cartridge in a long action. (Not that you needed my advice).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 04:39:34 (ZULU)

Update: Ordered Leatherwood 20MOA Picatiny base, Burris 1" Zee rings,set of .020 inserts, and 8oz bedding compound"kit". My Rifle was 3" low with elevation all the way up except for 2 clicks. It has 70MOA of total travel, so I'll need it all. Checked with the Burris sight after not finding them on Brownelles and saw thier 30mm rings come with .010 inserts, glad to know they have .020's also. Should have it all together Wednesday afternoon and will report back cause I've got a bail bonding/enforcement convention to leave for on Thursday. I'm not a big gambler but it's at the Grand in Tunica, MS and the wife really wants to go. I'll give report on Leatherwood base cause I haven't seen anyone mention it here, but it was half the price of Badger.

Don and JC I'll have to drive down to MSSA one Monday and shoot with you guys. It's about an hour and 15 minutes from me but I'd like to see the new range.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 05:12:46 (ZULU)

Jeff...

A "set" of 20 inserts will give you 20 moa, not 40 - for forty, you need two sets. A set consists of a top piece and a bottom piece.

I have found that with most scope setups, that you get just about what the insert says - you want 20" change, the 20 MOA set will give it to you...

... cuz the typical rings spacing is 3.5", and the formula is 1/1000 x the distance equals the amount of change.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 12:51:16 (ZULU)

Hi Hawgs, and a good morning to ya!

I woke to the news that SCOTUS is taking the DC Second ammendment case. At the bottom line, this case is focused on individual rights or state rights in interpretation of the meaning.

As Boortz says: Either you have ten ammendments that limit the government's powers by reserving specific rights to the people...or you have nine doing so with one ammendment giving rights to the government. I doubt the framers were in that mood at the time.

Framed that way, it would be hard to understand anything but a individual rights' ruling. In fact, I am watching this case as a complimentary one to the Kelo case. Either the BS stops now, or the republic is gone (under current management, at any rate).

And the scope of any such ruling is hard to predict--but "sweeping" is one word that comes to mind:))

Joe M
Monday, November 12, 2007, at 14:56:55 (ZULU)

Good Mornin Lito and Others T hat's what I've got comming. 4 halves guess I should've put it that way. I don't know why but to me when you order something for rings they ought to give you what you need for "both" rings. I almost messed up and ordered what they and everyone but me calls a set, which like you say, is 2 halves. How many dishes are in a set? Enough for everyone to eat, not just one person. lol.

It's raining here and that sucks cause I spent 3 hours cleaning "the" gun with everything from Hopes, and Sweets 7.62 to bore paste. Wanted to see how it shot without someone elses fowling in it. Rain, Rain Go Away, Come again some other day. Preferably next summer when we need it, instead of another stupid drought that leaves me broke.

SCOTUS can be unpredictable and you never know how long it'll take for them to hand down a ruleing. Thier job should be to decide whether or not someone has trampled on our individual rights as given us by the Amendments. Not to decide if a right applies to us. They do, that's simple enough. If the government doesn't want us to have a certian right then they have to make another amendment. Simple. To bad that's not the way it works. I spent three years at U of Memphis working on a BA in political science. That was just enough to realize I didn't want a JD, and enough to realize that our government can be really sneeky in how they get what they want by going through the SC instead of inacting/repealing laws. I forgot the word for laws that weren't laws, just court rullings. I still wouldn't want to live in any other country though! God bless the USA and all those who have fought for it and our way of democracy.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 15:05:12 (ZULU)

Wow, the Supreme Court to hear a 2nd Amendment case! That is a huge development.

medicjim
Monday, November 12, 2007, at 15:37:22 (ZULU)

Precedent?

MedicJim: yeah, it's been like some 70 freakin' years, eh? But they really cannot ignore the circuit courts ruling cross-wise from region to region---there is enough opposite rulings in play at that level to pretty much mean absolutely nothing--or anything--you want it to regarding gun laws. Confusion seems to be the Fed's best friend when it comes to advancing the cause of the collective over the individual...and the Justice department has done nothing but add to this confusion over the eyars---counter to its charter--which would be to solve these by appeals to the next (final) court. That they allowed the ninth to say "collective right" and the fifth to say "individual right" on this issue (as but one example of a hundred) says something. They aren't interested in the constitution, just political expediency. It took a corrupt-ass DC Government getting pissed over a brilliant strategic move against their draconian gun laws to bump the issue up! Whereas the DOJ should have, one way or the other, been working to resolve every cross-ruling in the land. As it stands, the constitution has 5 meanings, depending on where you live. WTF??? This DC case is the perfect case from our perspective though---it could, with a decision on merit (not a dodge decision that could come)--define the fed's role in guun control. I expect it to do so, while leaving the question open to the states. A better ruling will give the second the same force as the other 8 (one is for the states) for state limitations. We shall see, eh? It'll be fun to watch.

The most fun will be who and what takes which side. watch the NRA-ILA on this one---they already dodged the intitial case and tried to de-rail it.

This is where we will light up the dark corners and see what lurks inside them! Rudy will be interesting to watch closely onthis issue too. Clinton is a no-brainer, she will oppose this shit without reading a word in any brief!

Heheh! This could be great entertainment.

Joe M
Monday, November 12, 2007, at 16:03:24 (ZULU)

Gents,

Joe M., sent a PM to you on the Howa issue. Let me know if it came through as I had a internet "burp" about the same time.

So, SCOTUS is hearing the second ammendment case. Unfortunately, it will mean nothing, IMHO. SCOTUS will rule in favor of the 2nd ammendment meaning what it says, but just say it will be a state's rights issue. The end result will be zero, nada, zilch, IMHO. I hope like hell I'm wrong and every state/law gets it's peepee wacked at the same time. Lot's on the table here. Both for the Feds, States, and individuals. Government is going to fight like hell for a favorable (to them) outcome. As noted, this will be an interesting issue.

Yesterday found me tracking a single set of elk tracks. Probably a lone bull. Stopped short of some regrowth hoping he'd come back down the small cut I was surveying. About 30 minutes later I heard a single shot. Some bastard had shot "my" bull! Nice little spike...good eating. Had four taken that day. Two spikes and two cows. No one has seen a branch antlered bull, yet. Letting things settle down and will hunt tomorrow hard. Pray for torrential rain! That will get them out of the think stuff and out on the more open flats. For those that haven't hunted the coast mountains of Oregon it a real treat. Usually, wet and muddy, but fun...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 16:39:08 (ZULU)

re: SCOTUS and 2A case - back story

The precipitating jurisduction was DC, but to get it to the SC took some careful strategizing by some pro-gun lawyers and organizations to lay the groundwork.

Read:

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/a_shot_at_the_second_amendment

Don't be distractd, the NRA is a side player in this drama up to now.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 18:08:44 (ZULU)

I just read something about illegals getting driver's licenses and the right to vote. Can anyone verify?

I'm about tired of "our" government assholing us. Democracy, my ass! We vote things down repeatedly, then they just back door the issue somehow.

Travis Morgan
Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 02:55:59 (ZULU)

If you are really bored---I mean really bored; or an insomniac like myself--then click my name.

You will find DC's filing with SCOTUS that outlines their case to attempt an overturn of the heller decision of the DC circuit court.

If you have no idea what I am talking about, you must mail me all your weapons by Friday:)) And until a decision is reached, that would be "in care of" my friendly neighborhood FFL. Hehheh.

Reader Digest for those with a life: DC Mayor has really upped the ante with this brief. They cite US v. Miller (yes, the one from U.C novel) as one of three fundemental flaws in the DC Circuit decision...that allows (demands) redress in future decisions to deconflict the logic. The Miller case is fundemental in defining militia, people or whatever in the intent. The other two flaws cited in the main argument are that 2) The ammendment only applies to federal government not restricting the rights (wake up, California); 3) and that by allowing slected firearms (while ristricting others) the district does not violate the ammendment, regardless of who it applies to (people or state).

So, by arguing so broadly---DC is literally throwing every fuckin' gun law in every jurisdiction on the table. As they say in Texas hold'em: "All in."

Now, the justices will have to: 1) Ignore this totally and walk the hell away as fast as they can; 2) Make Marx proud and start the disarmament process by re-writing the constitution's bill of rights yet again (Kelo decision),; or 3) Do their freakin' duty per oath sworn.

Under option 3, it will be interesting to see just how brilliant these robes truly are. Will they rule on the framer's intent and purpose and let all heel break loose? Or will they hedge and haw with "state's rights exceptions" and other hoooie while upholding the basic individual right?

On a side note: The state? Who or what is the state? The Government's interests? What, exactly are those interests? I ask, because as a government "of, by and for" the people, aren't the people the same as the government and the gov is, in fact, the people? As such, does it really fuckin' matter who or what the ammendment applies to in the Miller case? I am the state. The state is me (all together now...). My guns allow for any divorce to be on my terms alone. If somehow "the state" manages to take away my say-so, my implied threat of equal force, then I am no longer a part of the state---I become a subject of the state. That, in a nutshell, is why the second ammendment found a home.

With the government increasingly seeking its own divorce from the people (under its own terms), this ammendment must seriously scare the hell out of them.

Exactly, Just as the framers intended for it to do!

Ya know, I thought the Kelo case was a no-brainer too. Different court then, but still; how in the hell did they read "for public purpose" where the plain written text states clearly and unambiguously "for public use?"

Joe M
Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 03:41:30 (ZULU)

Spot the 'tard. Click.

Or here (different one) http://youtube.com/watch?v=emSL-Ra35kM

Darwin Award candidate: http://youtube.com/watch?v=yTU2o3LGumI

And for those of you that just want to punch Nancy Grace in the face........ http://youtube.com/watch?v=jWPY7b35vF4

Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 05:54:08 (ZULU)

All this SCOTUS stuff makes me wish I hadnt slept thru my "Civics"classes way back when.

I always thought D.C. was not a State but a fancy name for a city.And if it is just a city it cant bring on a stricter gun law than what the State has.And since it isnt a State,It has to be defined as a State before it can bring in a gun law.

Wisconsin is in the process of trying to do this very thing.Write a gun law that is stricter than the States Gun Law.Our crooked Govenor Jim Doyle,Mayor of Milwaukee Tom Barret are trying to ram this thing threw.The law would be limited to Milwaukee and Milwaukee County.But the precedence would leave any city in the State of Wisconsin to write its own gun laws.A very bad thing.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 09:05:08 (ZULU)

'Lito,

You'll love this. I have to go to court today (don't they know it's deer season?) because my dog ALLEGEDLY chewed up(no injuries)the neighbor down the street's pomeranian. (A public service, IMHO)

Well, anyhow, I'm charged with harboring a vicious animal. I kept continuing it, so the City Attorney would drop the charges after we move, but the move's been tabled indefinitely. I decidede to look up the city code, just for good measure, and had to go no further than the glossary section to find where the charge should be dismissed. The Haysville, Ks. city code reads:

(s) Vicious Animal: Any animal, OTHER THAN A DOG, which at any place within the city other than within the fenced or enclosed premises of its owner, possessor, or keeper, makes an unprovoked attack upon a person or other animal or without provocation approaches any person in an apparent attitude of attack.

Since Boomer is a DOG, I suppose they're out of gas. PLUS, the code also states that the summons must be signed by the complainant, (which it ain't) and a hearing has to be held to determine if the dog is vicious before a person can be charged with harboring a vicious animal.

I just hope they don't figure out some other way to hose me. They probably will.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 10:30:23 (ZULU)

Travis...

You should win (but we know that means shit in the courts today).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 12:55:10 (ZULU)

Lito the Trigger Guru: Is there any way to take the Remington trigger group apart. I'm used to the Winchester trigger where you can change springs or cut/get longer ones to get the weight up or down reliably. I have always been able to get a longer but lighter tension spring and then just do a good file job on the trigger and sear to get out take up and creap. On the Remington you can't get to it without taking it apart. I've got my weight about where I want it but the take up is long and NOT smoothe. It's very rough trigger/sear contact surface and has 1/16-1/8 of takeup. Should I just get a timney or do oyou suggest another brand that is adjustable for take up, over travel and weight? I want to be adjustable from 12oz to 40oz depending on whether I'm shooting deer or competing. Have you had to do much fittting on after market triggers or do they drop in pretty well?

The government is the state, we are the people and the alternative name for the first 10 amendments is "the bill of rights". The bill of rights are our "the poeples" right's, suposedly. Precidents and Case Law, the word that I couldn't remember, does however tend to take away from some of these rights, depending on who was sitting at the time of certian cases. Which is good or bad depending on what side of which case you are on. Hopefully they will side with the people on this one and not erode any more of our rights. The SC is more republican/conservative at the moment, but most lawyers are liberals, and lawyers are what the judges are. Will they go with thier feelings or decide to go with a framers mind interpretation? That is what waits to be seen, and like I mentioned earlier, on something as momentious they can be very slow in handing down ruleings with each one having to write thier own explaination. A big case like this, will certianly require lengthy explaination about thier interpretation. The decision could be landmark huge, and they all want thier names to go down in the history books, which requires even more time and explaniation in thier "not so brief" decision brief.

Travis Good luck. I'm behind you on the dog thing. I've got three Pit Bulls that were raised right and wouldn't hurt a fly unless I told them to. Actually only one of them would do that. They are all the sweetest animals you will ever meet except for "sugar" the oldest. She is totally trained in protection, attack and the four main drugs. She's my personal dog, not an LE K9 but I trained her just to show what can be done with a "stupid dog that was bread only to fight end eat little children". That's the publics general opinion of the breed. It comes from the public not being educated and the media labeling every dog that attacks someone a "pit Bull". History shows that while being bread to fight they were also bread not to bite people, so that they could be handeled by thier handlers. You can't have a dog attacking you when you go into the ring to retrieve it or call off a fight. So the "people biting" instinct was intentionally bread out of them. Don't get me wrong, I abhore dog fighting, but history is history, and the uneducated people"sheep" believe whatever they are told by the media"shepards", without thinking for themselves. If it's on TV it's got to be true, right?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 14:29:15 (ZULU)

A very big thank you to all the veterans!

For everything you need to know Savage and Stevens related, come see me at www.savageshooters.com, go to the forums.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 19:51:14 (ZULU)

Jeff...

Go here:

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/RemingtonTriggers.asp

And follow the instructions TO THE LETTER. They are good instructions - I know the guy what wrote them.

You cannot take the Remington body apart, and it is riveted together...

... but you don't need to.

Remove the screws for adjustment and the springs behind them will come out.

New LIGHTER springs are available from Brownell's, Darrel Holland, and some guys on e-bay. I get the ones on e-bay - same shit, lower price.

The Remington trigger itself has a funny "L" shaped piece that sits loose on top, instead of a real sear.

It sits on top of the trigger proper, and is what is in contact with the pin release sear (arm).

You can take this "L" piece out (as well as the pin release arm) and work them on a fine oiled Arkanas stone. Make sure that you move the parts in the same direction that they move, not sideways, cuz if you do sideways, you will get a trigger that "steps". Martha says "... and that's a bad thing".

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 21:25:01 (ZULU)

Unpat- unless Wisconsin has a state pre-emption act, any city/county can pass laws stricter than state law. 'Course if your state constitution says different, then that comment doesn't apply. Quite a few states passed pre-emption to nullify a crazy quilt result of cities getting uppity about gun laws. Probably quite a few of those laws were the result of the rest of the state getting tired of attitude:)

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 02:51:05 (ZULU)

Lito Thanks, I've never had to mess with Remington triggers. I always owned Winchesters. The L piece will need length taken off, instead of the contact surface. The contacting piece you speak of could use some work also. It's mainly just a looong pull before it breaks. You can see the surfaces through a little hole, but I haven't taken the assembly off yet. I had just followed your directions the other day to see if I could get it lighter than it already was. That's when I realized it was soo long when I got it lighter. Replacing the springs with longer, lighter ones will allow me to get it reliably lighter like replacing the tension spring on the over travel screw and cutting the other spring on the Winchester. Correct? I had worked on Winchesters and all my 1911's before, but they are pretty strait forward. I had the already Remington down pretty low, but your method and order in the article helped me and also gave me a better understanding of what's hidden inside the secret walls of the trigger body. Remington probably builds it that way so people can't just look at it, figure it out, and mess with it themselves. Thanks again.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 03:02:56 (ZULU)

Jeff: The government as the state is a newer development in this nation's history. Let me clarify that: The state's attitiude as "over the people" rather "of, by and for" is the new development. Conversely, civic duty is gone too---it is a two way street after all. A government's natural tendency is to expand itself---ad in the apathy of the average American, and lookit what we wrought.

Still thinking of dumping that M21. I can' talk myself into keeping it. I really want a rack-grade, and I have too much respect for this one to step it down to battle rifle. I figure someone, somewhere will appreciate it as it is.

Last night, some douche from germany was probing port 80 on my machine, attempting a system entry. I echo'd his ass back thru 12 hops to his IP. I also got contact info for reporting this to his ISP with the same software. My new firewall rocks! Like anything else, it has a weakness somewhere, so i won't name it openly--but I'll let ya know if your interested offline.

I had a few trojans and 52 spyware programs that Macafee, Norton and Iolo did not root out---they happily ignored these. This new one bagged them. I bet that douche was trying to come back and use his code for whatever reason--not realizing that I had him tagged.

A pox on these asshats!

Joe M
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 04:55:22 (ZULU)

Jeff...

Don't shorten the "L" piece. Just hone the top of it. Then hone the corresponding surface on the release sear piece.

Also.. if you get longer but weaker springs, you must make sure that the range you want is in the spring, cuz that will limit the amount of overall adjustment. Being longer, you will also have a limit on the amount of compression, so you might wind with something like being able to go from 39 to 31 ounces.

The side hole allows you to see the engagement... the factory sets them optically, which is how they know if you have fooled with them. The screw in the back sets engagement... thats why you don't cut the "L" piece - you set the engagement (trigger creep) with the back screw.

Remington didn't design the trigger like you said:

"Remington probably builds it that way so people can't just look at it, figure it out, and mess with it themselves."

You gotta remember that when Remington designed the original 721/722 (the grandfathers of the M-700), they didn't give a shit if "we messed with it".

In those days, you were EXPECTED to adjust your trigger, like the seats on a new car... or have the smith do it for you.

The Remington trigger was designed to be cheap to make. Even though it has more pieces parts, it can be assembled by idjits - whereas the Winchester is a bitch to install, and requires fitting by a skilled machinist/gunsmith who was specially trained for it - even the average gunsmith cannot install a NEW Winchester trigger (not talkin about adjusting the pull weight).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 10:28:20 (ZULU)

Well...

It's another shitty day in Connecticut, the Kalifornia of the east coast!

A few weeks ago, I e-mailed Ruggus Rattus a little 30 second video from the sand pit showing a night time (green NVD) air strike on the baddies. It was not filled with gore or anything... just green stars floating down to this mud and stucco "house", with BGs in the yard.

Well... the Rat shows it to some school kids on his laptop computer at school yesterday.

BOOM, the bomb drops, and he is out for two weeks... then his shit ball of a mother takes all privileges (TV, cell phone, and computer) away for two weeks.

I called the school and asked if they had rules about showing videos that are seen every night on the news, and she says, "Well, no, but we don't like anything violent in school".

So I asked, "Couldn't you handle that a little less aggressively, I mean it's like using a sledge hammer when a fly swatter would have worked better?"

... no answer!

Then I wake up to the TV news, and my local gun store (1 mile away) is in the news. It's a great gun store, with lotsa stuff, and what they don't have, they can get in a day or two... it's clean and neat, and a credit to the shooting industry.

Well... some desperate assholes drove a large truck through the front of the store at 3 AM and stove in the whole store front!

They will be closed for a few months... and it's hunting season, and they will loose most of the hunting season, plus the holiday gift season.

The day will probably go down hill from here :(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 14:33:16 (ZULU)

Lito Makes sense. Soo, I can look at the engagement with the fireing pin cocked and adjust the screw while watching through the hole like your instructions say, till it dropps and then back it up some. With it everything else set too light I guess I screwed it too far trying to pass the reliability test. You can get it not to drop and really light but it has a LONG pull that way. So lightening it up reliabily needs the spring change. I guess Like you say, I'm trying to push it past the design limits. How low have you been able to get one with sppring changes? Only to about 31ozs, I'm guessing. I may try to see if a smith buddy of mine has an extra old one that he has taken off someone elses rifle and get it from him so that I can have one that I can tear up and take comletely apart, rivets and all. If so, I'll take some pictures of the insides of it and figure a way to get them posted or if you like you can add them to your "How To" so others can get an idea of what's inside and how it works. I'm guessing they are they outsourcing the trigger group and then dropping them in at factory? Thanks.

Just read your second post. You've helped me too much and my luck has rubbed off on ya. Sorry bout that. Sound's like our kids go to the same school too. Mine is in after school detention for demerrits every Tue and Thur which is the only days the school has it. She'd be ther avery day if they had it, and she's basicly a good kid. I'm not sure I wouldn't wrather she get suspended than stay after. I have to drive to town to get her when she does, and that's about $15 in diesel per trip, not to mention interupting my afternoon siesta or getting to my hunting spot late, which ever I'm doing. Look on the bright side. I'm getting all that ring, base, insert, bedding stuff today, and you get to answer all my stupid questions concerning that. Don't you wish I'd never bought another tacticle rifle and come back to this site!!Haha.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 15:16:45 (ZULU)

Jeff...

I don't understand why you are having so much trouble with it. Adjusting a Remington trigger is "child easy".

You are not "pushing it past it's design limits"... you're not that hot! You haven't even gotten close to them yet.

>"How low have you been able to get one with sppring changes? Only to about 31ozs, I'm guessing."<

HA!... Double HA!! - I regularly bring them to 24-28 ounces WITH the factory spring. And they break like glass. You gotta drink two "Mo'gan Tahnies" before you start.

>"I may try to see if a smith buddy of mine has an extra old one that he has taken off someone else's rifle and get it from him so that I can have one that I can tear up and take completely apart, rivets and all. If so, I'll take some pictures of the insides of it and figure a way to get them posted or if you like you can add them to your "How To" so others can get an idea of what's inside and how it works."<

The trigger is NOT a secret NSA device that was captured from the Rooskies - no one needs to know what is inside, cuz the diagram tells it all - and seeing one apart won't help anyone adjust it.

You are having way too much trouble with this trigger... This chore might be past your skill set.

>"I'm guessing they are they outsourcing the trigger group and then dropping them in at factory? Thanks."<

WRONG!!! What makes you say something like that - you have no information on that!

Go read SniperCountry "The rules of engagement":

http://www.snipercountry.com/roster/RulesEngagement.html

Pay special attention on articles #2 and #3.

I gots no patience with home grown theories being tossed around like confetti at a New Years party. People read that shit, and repeat it on some other board, and the guys on SC looks like a bunch of bullshitting assholes. We folks on SC have a very good reputation on the internet... don't poop on it!!

>" Don't you wish I'd never bought another tacticle rifle and come back to this site!!Haha."<

Ah... er... I don't think you wanna go there...

'lito (off to fight life's wars).

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 16:28:38 (ZULU)

A good read!

http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm

(Edit for phat finger syndrome) "On sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs".

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 16:34:37 (ZULU)

Lito:

From what I have seen in the news for US and Canada, the general policy theme at most schools today is "zero tolerance" for anything related to violence or weapon-like things. If someone triggers one of the zero tolerance items at a school, boom! - they're out of there for the prescribed period, no discression applied.

I've read stories elsewhere in the news about students being suspended for drawing non-threating pictures involving firearms, or pointing a finger like a firearm in a non-threating manner.

Sad state of affairs - make you wonder why we need to pay large salaries to school administrators, since they no longer need to bring reasoning and judgement to the job.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 16:40:41 (ZULU)

The one thing that you could probably do to counter the 'zero tolerance to violence' thing is to request detailed, written lesson plans for all the classes and days your son will miss (complete with any supporting artifacts the class will be provided). They should be able to produce the documents within 24 hours as they are required to have them for every day of class. Be sure to act profoundly shocked when they cannot provide such documentation. So shocked that you feel compelled to do the right thing and bring it to the school board's attention immediately, after all, it would derelect not to have detailed, written daily lesson plans.

medicjim
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 18:04:47 (ZULU)

Rod, MedicJim et-al; the zero-tolerance BS is a simple dodge. There are many other social ills that follow back to the same root causes: Responsibility! No one wants to assume the repsonsibility, but these same folks all seek and crave the authority just fine. One without the other often leads to this.

You see this same cause and effect in political speech. One guy says something along the lines of slander against our troops---another guy calls him onit, and the slanderin' fool retreats to his "free speech" rights and cries of questioned patriotism. The bottom line? This type wants the unfettered right to pander to any radical without accepting any responsibility at all for his words.

In zero tolerance--you have one size fits all outcomes assigned to any and all rules, no matter how vaguely defined. This way--no one in authority has to face the responsibility of using judgment. It is, after all, much easier to weild power when you aren't responsible for its effects. It is also the single worst sin I found in fellow officers. I have, perhaps...hypothetically...maybe fingered my safety in anger in Iraq....maybe coulda...but yeah, this pisses me off to no certain end.

We can thank two direct influences for this abdication of assumed responsibility: One is trial lawyers. The other is the education system that promotes self esteem over performance and consequences.

Don't like it??? Address the two causes first. Then wait til it works out of society...we who are attuned to the problem call this "tough love."

My son is about to be victimized by some of this wonderful wake-up medicine:))

Lito: Thank you. I was skimming thru those posts---and thought that a few statements could reflect badly on the sight (as in whatta bunch of idiots)...but let it fly since no one seemed concerned. This is, after all, a place to learn. No question is "dumb" or some such cliche...but questions are questions...and statements of fact better be just that!!!

I think you addressed that very nicely---courteous and respectful with a solution on how to fix the problem; that's much better than I would have (sooner or later)!

Joe M
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 18:22:18 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

Yes,Wisconsin has a Pre-emeptive law in place,this Bill was passed in '96...The Gov and Mayor are tryin to get Milwaukee/Milwaukee County exempt from the Pre-emptive...But to do so they need to change WI State Constitution...and they are bein really sneaky about it.I thought most states had a pre-emptives in place?

The law they would like to see in place and apply to Milwaukee/Milwaukee County is with handguns.I live in Milwaukee County....Say YOU live in Green Bay.If you were to loan me a handgun to hunt with,I would have 48hrs to Register that handgun with the Police/Sheriff's dept that YOUR handgun is now in MY possesion.It doesnt matter that it was registered at the time of when YOU bought it from a Federally Compliant Gunshop or if it wasnt thru a private sale.I would STILL have to bring it in,have them run the numbers on it("for stolen gun trackin"-they claim )and have it re-registered to me.Nobody mentions anything about having the firearm removed from the registry once I return it back to YOU....

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 20:14:07 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Stand-up slowly and walk quickly away from Milwaukee, please do not look back. EVER!!! :)

I moved out 5 years ago and have never looked back. Except for Work.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 21:30:46 (ZULU)

Joe U.

Permanent evac plan in the works to Black River Falls Area.Or NW of that.Only prob is,between Madison and Milwaukee there are more than enough Liberals to carry votes.Wich as you and I know is how Doyle got in from AG to Gov....The rest of the State didnt want him as Gov.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 22:00:12 (ZULU)

Lito,

"On sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves"

Grossman's books, and his research, are fascinating stuff you never learned in 'proper' schools. Should be required reading, along with Machiavelli and Sun Tzu (sp?).

Duman
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 22:07:00 (ZULU)

Gents,

Elk season ended yesterday and I didn't score. Not for want of trying. A case of not being in the right place at the right time, I'm sure. The animals ARE there. This time of year the Rooseveldt Elk are usually bunched up in groups of 4-8. The lone tracks we find are usually small "satellite" bulls. The upshot of the season was that I know of five elk taken in the immediate area hunted. Two cows, two spikes, and one 4 X 5 bull.

Was tracking a single set of tracks last Sunday and stopped short of a reforested area thinking some hunters on top might run the animal out. Someone drove around into that area and shot the animal. That group was using hand held radios and a number of hunters to push the animals to waiting party members. In my case it was myself and an old high school buddy. Upshot is the animals will be there next year and I can try again. Today it's clean gear and store for later use.

Zero-tolerance schools. I have heard of this in our area, but know of no cases. Don't have any kids of my own, but I have grand kids 5 and 8. Going to watch the situation closely. Luckily BOTH like to go shooting with G'Pa...;-)

Joe, you're right. Everyone is afraid to accept any responsibility or teach anything where the little folk might have to make a serious decision. A perfect set-up to create drones that will look to the government to think for them and take care of them. Think I'm going to go hurl...

Wonder if anyone in these situations has sought to sue the schools for something. Heck, if someone can make the McDonald's Hot Coffee incident into a case and win there has to be a similar paralells somewhere. Psychological damage from being banned from school for something that is in the Bill of Rights? Freedom of speech and expression? How about descrimination?

The man who said: "First we kill all the lawyers" needs to add teachers to the list...

Enough...this is gonna ruin my vacation.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 22:23:13 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Good thinking about the move, I would have loved to moved up that way but theres no work in that direction for me.

You sure are right on Dimwit Jim, you get out of Milw. & Mad. and he has no support.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 22:40:31 (ZULU)

'lito "You gotta drink two "Mo'gan Tahnies" well go for it man.

I wasn't guestioning you, I was asking you questions.

HA!... Double HA!! - I regularly bring them to 24-28 ounces WITH the factory spring. And they break like glass.

"You gotta drink two "Mo'gan Tahnies" before you start.""so you might wind with something like being able to go from 39 to 31 ounces."

Your quote, that I copy and pasted thats why I asked you the QUESTION

"WRONG!!! What makes you say something like that - you have no information on that!

You're right, That's why there's a question mark as to ellicit an answer from you because you DO have the information that I would like.

"I don't understand why you are having so much trouble with it.""You are not "pushing it past it's design limits"... you're not that hot! You haven't even gotten close to them yet."

I wasn't having "that much trouble" till I tryed to get it lower than 28. Of course this is a Theory, but your 24-28oz MAY have variations different than mine due to manufacturing QC in the springs or elsewhere. Also read the rest of #3 as I do more than fly cropdusters and kill deer.

"Lito Thanks""Thanks again.""? Thanks." Untill now, notice "thanks" in my posts directed to you out of respect for your knowledge of the triggers, and guestions were just that, honest questions, not questioning your knowledge."This is, after all, a place to learn. No question is "dumb" or some such cliche..."

"drink two "Mo'gan Tahnies" ,chill out, and watch your muzzle, it's sweeping me unnecessiarily. If I posted some information that was wrong it's because I was given some wrong information and I corrected it as soon as newer intel was given to me. fire for effect.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 23:25:42 (ZULU)

Hey Guy's,

I have had the 9 year old shooting my BB gun for about a year now and last week-end she shot one of my .22's for the first time. The biggest problem is the size of the gun compared to her size. First should I buy a youth model .22 for her or maybe a full size and cut down the stock for her? I do have a 7 & 5 year old that haven't started shooting yet but the gun would get plenty of use over the next 5 to 7 years.

My second question is are there any good books out there on teaching kid's to shoot? I am a decent shot and I don't have any problem hitting what I am shooting at but I am self taught and don't want to pass-on any bad habits of mine on them.

So any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 23:46:30 (ZULU)

Jeff...

You win!

See how easy that was...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 23:51:46 (ZULU)

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