Sniper Country Duty Roster

November 2007

Strange thing just happened. I was going through some old cans of ammo I've had for a long time. I guess I've had some of it for too long. I ran across a can of Lake City Match from 1970-71. Does anyone know if the primers were corrosive from back then, or was that just on the commy ammo.

Jefff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, Great USofA - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 01:06:11 (ZULU)

The last corrosive primers used in US military small arms ammo would have been in the early fifties.

John
WI, - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 01:24:48 (ZULU)

Tony,

Could have saved you some money. Unless you just wanted the Smiths. In my kimber I carry 1 in chamber, 8 in mag in pistol, and my 2 extra mags are 10 round Chip Mc's. They look like crop sticking out of the bottom of the gun but they look fine in the mag holster. How many rounds do you need. Pistols are only to be used till you can get to your long gun anyway. Also, I'm not a Glock fan or anything but that was dept isue for a while. The triggers are better than the Smith except for the first shot. After that you dont have to let the Glock trigger go all the way forward to reset. Think it's called rolling trigger.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 01:43:46 (ZULU)

Thanks John. I thought so but wasn't sure. Now I've got a lot more rounds to have fun with.

Sorry for the multiple posts guys.

Jeff Cooper
Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 01:46:49 (ZULU)

Robotic soldiers

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/columnists/story.html?id=e4b38174-fd11-449a-935d-81b6bc889ca9

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 02:21:01 (ZULU)

Ken M: Email inbound with info. Better late than never; my excuse involves a pirate, an indian princess and a purple unicorn.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20071101/D8SKLD7G0.html

(Click name)

Man, I really ought to write that book! What is described in this article is merely the tip of the smallest iceberg in a cluster of 'bergs.

Kimber question: Longmaster classic 84M in 308, almost NIB for $799 caught my eye. The website (http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/84m/longmasterclassic.php) lists the barrel twist as 1:9--assumed that is for the 223 version. Anyone know what the 308 twist is for these (their "tactical line is 1:12)--and is there any reason to avoid buying this thing?

Joe M
Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 07:44:19 (ZULU)

Joe,

You can't afford it. Your wife just bought new horses in every available color, with an entire wardrobe of sleazy sleepers for each one!

Also-on the AR thing, since you can use a .223 AR to build a 9mm, why not get the .308 lower (or bigger, say .338) and put in a magazine block like you'd do with the .223/9? That way, I could just get an upper in every caliber I want, except for .50.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 15:03:41 (ZULU)

Joe 1 in 9 according to steve in the custom shop. It sounds a little slow to me and I didn't question Him why so slow. I've heard great things about it. Fit and finish like it came from the custom shop. Sub MOA from the factory in a hunting rifle is what I heard, which sounds great to me, especially after my new winchester. I've worked with them since thier introducion of the ill fated double stack 45 they had 10 years ago. My machinist, thier gunsmiths, and myself tried to get that thing to run reliably enough to get through an ISPC matchs withput misfeeds and never could. I ended up shooting for PARA in competition and carried Kimber single stacks ever since. Thier single stacks are the top in my opinion without going to Les Baer, King, or Wilson, which I could do, but in my opinion don't see any need to do. My current Eclipse Pro II can out shoot me, and not bragging, but I've kept my A ranking without pratice for years only shooting enough matches to get in the necissary qualifiers. Kimber is a great company.Sugested retail is over $1100 so $799 should be a pretty good price. I figure most of the stores will have them around $900. I do know if you have problems you won't have to deal with the run around of a huge company to get them taken care of. I'm kinda glad you brought them up cause it reminded me of another company to look at for my next small hunting rifle and I'll probably go with them. It'll be a stainless w/composite stock because I deer hunt Nov. Dec. Jan. every day rain, snow, sleet, or shime just like the post office. The walnut furniture on the model you are talking about sure does look pretty but I just couldn't bring my self to maring it up. If I got wood It'd end up sitting in the safe next to my fathers Browning '06. In my opinion that'd be a waste of what a hunting rifle was ment to do. Kinda like setting your pretty new tripod stand up in the back yard just to practice shooting out of it. "I have a buddy that has done just that, for worry that if he puts it in the field it'll get stolen, rediculus"

Anyway I was thinking about buying a new Encore barrel for in .308 to get rid of all my new found match ammo. Now I may get a Kimber if I can sneak it by my wife. Barrels are an easy sneak. The only 308 I have is in a pistol & it eats my middle left finger on every shot due to my strange grip and trigger pull. "I use both index fingers on shots over 100yds due to pulling to right. And, no I'm not jerking, It's just that pistols pull off a lot more noticably than rifles." I can't get my encore trigger down below 36oz like I'd like it to be. If anyone has a how to on that one please put it in the how to section.

Oh well, sorry guys, guess I've written enough. This isn't my personal blog. Maybe I'll have to get one of those too one day.

Jeff Coper
Gadsden, TN , Great USofA - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 16:37:06 (ZULU)

I was pokin' around in a box, lookin for something and came across a new unfired ".244 Rem" case.

I bought those cases new...

... Man, do I feel old! :(

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 17:48:33 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Have your buddy look into cryptonite cables(click my name). The guy that sold me my first one worked in a bike shop, and told me that he tried to cut one for about an hour, and couldn't get through it. They make fat ones for motorcycles , cables for bicycles, disc locks that go on brakes, and, my favorite, the 30 footers(http://www.kryptonitelock.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?cid=1000&scid=1001&pid=1126). Good enough to secure a job box to a concrete column on a jobsite, or to wrap around the back axle of a Ford Ranger and around a large tree.

Should do for securing a deer stand to a tree or 10 feet of 1" sucker sucker rod driven into the ground with an eye welded into it.

The funniest part about him refusing to take it out in the field is, if you asked him why he practices from a stand, he'd probably give you the line about "practice like you play".

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 20:02:00 (ZULU)

Taken from another site. An interesting read about the 82nd Airborne. http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12233

HDR
OK, - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 20:25:06 (ZULU)

Lito Know What you mean....70-71 LCA match. I haven't had them since new, but I have had them for a while. Seems like yesterday that I was using the young dumb and stupid excuse. It's been 25 years since I used it.

Travis haven't thought about Kryptonite, but he and I both have motorcycle locks from them for our Harleys. My '50 doesn't have a key switch, just an on/off and a start button. I have to carry the lock everywhere I go. I think the main reason he really leaves the thing in his yard is that we live swo far out in the country that sitting on top of the 20ft tripod is the only place we get cell phone reception. We look stupid sitting/talking in the stand, but free nights and weekends & long distance will make you do stupid things. Kinda feel like whats' his name on green acres TV show. There I go showing my age again.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 20:31:54 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Get ahold of Wilson electronics (CLICK) and order the "Cellular trucker" cell phone antenna. It's an external (think CB antenna) antenna that plugs into that little round hole with a rubber plug in it on the back of your phone. And, yes, your phone DOES have one of those. Or, if you're anywhere near a flying J truckstop, you can get one there. Also, get the amplifier for it. You'll rarely find somewhere that you can't call with that amp on this setup.

Hold your applause, please!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 21:28:27 (ZULU)

Jeff: 1:9 is kinda fast for the 308--not slow. Slow is 1:12, at least for stability at or above 175 grains at normal velocities. Some rifles will stabilize, some won't at the 12 twist. Mine doesn't with Geoff M's handloads---but seems OK with Bravo's handloads. Very little difference in the recipes, but accuracy shows those differences. I'd take a recommendation that Lito (among others here) once mentioned: 1:11.25" twist for 308! I need to go back and go over this Kimber with a fine tooth comb. I think the barrel will be stamped somewhere with twist rates. Edited to add: I'm not trying to doubt you--it is just a weird rate for 308--enough that I will call Kimber to find out why they selected it.

Kryptonite locks: I had one years ago for my pedal bike, IIRC. It was a U-shaped thing with a barrel lock on the cross bar that had a bearing pressed in TDC to prevent drilling. A great design and pricey---but not quite as pricey as a Fuji Racing rig! Or, an antiquated harley, for that matter! I had a platoon of locks on my hawg in the Boston area--but I used chain and decent padlocks since I kept them in a small day pack with uniforms and other shit and space was at a premium. Nothing was mounted on the bike itself except my ass and hers (whoever she may have been at the time). The best lock, also carried in the pack, aligned the cylinder of the model 19--that and a window seat took all the worry out of parking in town.

That buck--the face to face guy, disappeared for a few days. He came tearing ass across the high pasture this morning (that route I suspected he'd use) right to where my stand is. Of course, i was in the driveway parking a truck right then:))

Joe M
Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 23:43:35 (ZULU)

Joe Your right. I had a brain fart. They probably figured that hunters would be using the heavy 180 grain bullets in that gun. They make the varment and tacticles with slower twist rates. I wish I'd asked Steve why they went with such a fast twist, but that'd be my guess. Better to err fast than slow though. The only thing I use 180's in is my ultra mag. Too much drop for me to use them in the slower cartridges. My win mag I used 160's. I guess people pick between drop from BC and drop from slower velocity due to weight. Sooner or later they are all gonna drop as long as were here on earth.

Topic for discussion: Higher weight and BC, or lower weight and faster speed. Where do the trade off's occur.

Travis Thanks. Haven't thought about that. I've got one of thier CB antennas. Works great with my 500 watt lenier. Called little will.

Looked at a rem 700 Varment Synthetic in .308. They wanted $1146 new with tax. Whats' a good price?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 00:14:22 (ZULU)

Jeff: Just looking for the first one listed, I'd say $650/ used is a good starting point.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976957837/Guns/Rifles/Remington-Rifles-Modern/Model-700/Tactical/REMINGTON_700VS_308CAL_LIKE_NE.htm

308s do not get too much abuse on barrel wear and two types of people buy and sell these: Guys who care about equipment and find they are ready for the next level of accuracy--in which case you will get a well cared for rifle, well broken-in. The other is the guy who "heard" that fat barrels and wide stocks will make him a better marksman only to learn that these things are heavy as a pile of bricks and he still can't hit a barn broadside with it (just like his previous rifle). Either way, it is unlikely that you would buy a worn dawg used--especially at this weight. I love the "used racks" or pawn shops. I love it even more when the find coincides with money in the pocket:)) Not often, as it turns out...

"Higher weight and BC, or lower weight and faster speed. Where do the trade off's occur."

A: Usually between the point of impact and the exit hole...;))

Joe M
Friday, November 2, 2007, at 00:41:41 (ZULU)

Gents,

Jeff, if you're looking for a "starter" rifle you may want to look at a Rem 700 PSS or an older "Varmint Special". The VS is my preference. If you can find a Winchester M70 Stealth in .308 I'd grab it and run. Mine is in .223 and I wish I would have tucked one away in .308. On the other hand my M40A1 clone seems to fill that bill...;-)

As noted, the .308 is easy on bores, so you'll probably not have a problem with barrels being shot out or barrel life. If you shoot A LOT you may shoot one out in 3-4 years and I'd expect a .308 bolt gun barrel to last about 10K rounds before re-barreling. Have heard of some going to 15K. There's better cartridges, for sure, but none that give the barrel life, accuracy, and shootability of that round. I AM a fan. That rifle will take care of about 95+% of what you will run into.

Rifle twist: I've never heard of anyone using a 1:9" twist in a .308. That's pretty fast. Most factory guns are using a 1:12". My own Obermeyer .308 barrel is a 1:10 twist. Faster than needed to stabilize 175 SMK's, but I like to shoot 190's as they shoot flatter and hit harder out to 600 yards. After that the 175 Gr. SMK's take over. I know that Boots Obermeyer and John Krieger both agree that the optimum twist for the .308 is 1:11.25". Frankly, I doubt we could really tell the difference between any of them when compared.

Weapons Safety: A VERY sore point with me. I blame our leadership for not making proper training available to our Marines and other services. Leadership allowed a "range mentality" to become a subliminal teaching that if you're not on the range the weapon must be safe. That cost us three Marines at the end of DS/DS. Leadership's response was "turn in your ammo". This from a fighting force? Since we teach that all weapons should be treated as loaded why not do it? Is there a cost? You bet...the suicide bomber that killed 243 Marines in Beruit back in '83 might have been stopped...if the gate guard would have been allowed to have a magazine in his weapon! We all lost friends in that one.

Hell, we fielded men with weapons and NO AMMO during DS/DS. Luckily, myself and my WO2 had seen this before and brought our own. The response we got was "you'll have it when you need it". Personally, I thought we should be the ones making that decision. We stayed loaded until I could see the departer aircraft sitting on the tar-mac. This is a classic case of leadership not doing the right thing, but the easy thing. The trend needs to be reversed. Ken, I think you broke the code when you said the Marines should be held responsible WHEN they have recieved proper training.

'Lito, funny, I've got a Ruger #1B barreled action in 6mm Rem awaiting stocking. Good cartridge. Had a early Rem 700 VS in 244. Pressed checking and a Unertl 10X with external adjustments. Old, but darn it shot well.

That's enough of a rant for this evening...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 05:13:15 (ZULU)

Click on my name for M&A Parts. They're friends and good people. Putting M16's together is fairly straightforward and says you some $.

Wes, our Bn went over with at least one mag per man. Some of us went with more, some of us went with LOTS more:) All M855, ie the marginal stuff. But it beats the holy Jebus outta nothing. Aside from a drug deal worked out with the local MEU, the only Mk 262 (77gn 5.56) in our part of the world came to me via US postal service;) Also how we got 12ga slugs and door breaching rds. The nice thing about being an independant battalion task force was the autonomy, also the bad thing(ie everyone shits on you and you have no friendly support) Some of the leadership decisions WRT small arms made were not ones I would have done, but they were far from the worst I've ever seen. It worked out OK down where the rubber met the road, we had a pretty good SNCO/NCO corps where it mattered. All I can say is "Thank God" the S4 actual and S3 actual never reconciled the expenditure reports against the patrol logs:)

The sniper platoon was GTG WRT weapons handling, for the old hands anyways. We had done all sorts of off the books training to ensure this was the case. The USMC pushed down some good training to supplement this, but to be honest, for the fundamentals, the stuff we did on our own was superior, even if it lacked the "gee-whiz" training areas and hardware. The only problems we had were a few of the new joins we took from Wpns Coy 6 weeks before we went OCONUS, they just couldn't catch up in the timeframe we were alloted. This is what established the attitude I have, what I held those Marines accountable for was different from what the older hands were held accountable for. That was the only thing that I could reasonably consider just for all parties involved.

IMO, this is one of the main reasons that micromanagement and staff bloat is so horrible to performance. The people out doing the work are extremely motivated to do things properly, they have immediate and dramatic feedback. The staff side/support guys have nothing remotely approaching this, thus their getting over involved with day to day "outside the wire" activities almost certainly doesn't add anything positive to the mix. With the caveat being that your trigger pullers have to be at least reasonably capable relative to the mission assigned. In my world, that is generally assumed, sometimes wrongly, but not very often. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Friday, November 2, 2007, at 07:14:39 (ZULU)

I don't understand the mindset of someone who would take live ammo away from someone in a hostile environment in the name of "safety". Well, I suppose I actually do, if it's for the sake of protecting themselves from professional harm, instead of protecting the troops. Now, we (civilian police)carry weapons loaded all the time, and the incidents of NG's is negligible. Why is that? Probably because we're constantly pounded with the "all guns are always loaded" rule, then made to carry them that way and be responsible for the result if we screw the pooch. On the other hand, official policy on AR15 carry is still to have them in the trunk, cased, mags out and chambers empty. Assuming that if you need an AR, you need it RIGHT NOW and in a really bad way, that's just plain idiocy. UNOFFICIAL policy is to do what you gotta do. Of course, our official policy is absolutely Byzantine.....I'm going to IA next week to explain why I stopped to eat dinner without asking Massah's permission. 3 months, 10 days.......

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 15:26:32 (ZULU)

Joe and Wes: Thanks for the advise. I have never owned a .308 except for my Encore Pistol. I bought it becauase I figured the cartridge was probably the limit of what a 15in. barrel could burn. Anything bigger would just be wasting powder. All my hunting rifles since I sold my .270 25 years ago have been .300 mag types. Long 28in barrels that could make use of slow burning powders. They have all also been heavy barrel/stock combinations because I don't do a lot of walking when hunting but do, as previously stated, get the opportunities to make some long shots. I remember being one of the few people in here when the SC roster started that was shooting 300winmag. Everyone that had a guestion about Win mag loads was e-mailing me. I only came back "home" here about 9 months ago when deer season was over, cropdusting hadn't started, & I only had one drug K9 in training and was very boared. It's nice to be back.

Now I'm the new guy, with a new cartridge, that I've got to learn all about. When I bought the 25wssm for my daughter I figured get her a light gun and one that doesn't have much recoil. I had completely departed from my origional way thinking. She doesn't walk either when hunting and all my stands have good rests to lay a heavy gun across. They were put up for myself and my 15lb gun. Anyway, not long ago I realized, why not go .308 in a heavy gun, and she likes the feel of the varmint stock on the one we looked at. The old LCM ammo I've got will give her plenty on practice rounds and great brass to reload. There's only 2 different batch numbers to all 400 rounds. That's also a plus. I've had it sooo long, I can't even remember why I bought the stuff, but I seem to remember paying $50 for it and probably thought I'd resell it.

I've got an offer for a trade for a Win M70 .308 SS. What are your opinions on this particular type rifle? http://www.gunsamerica.com/976969071/Guns/Rifles/Winchester-Rifles-Modern-Bolt-Auto-Single/Model-70/Post-64/Win_M70_HV_308_SS.htm#

Gun safty= you guys are right on about the training. Also If your finger isn't on the trigger the gun is much less likely to discharge. Whether the gun was loaded or not, I smacked my daughter on the back of her head "not hard" every time she put her finger on the trigger before she was ready to shoot. She new it was comming and it wasn't child abuse. She understood the reason for the smack and agreed that it was a necessary part of training. Troops ought to be more than smacked, as grown men sometimes have pretty thick skulls. Reguardless of whether they actually are or not, "guns are always loaded!!!" I personally keep my finger out of the trigger guard and pointed parallel with the barrel, touching the guard, or the receiver, or the back side of the slide release depending on the weapon. It helps you instinctively, and quickly, get the weapon pointed in the right direction when you are ready to aim and fire.

If you guys get tired of my long posts, just smack me on the back of the head. I tend to get a little carried away when there's nothing for me to do in the off season.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 16:24:17 (ZULU)

MAN I didn't realize how long that last post was till I saw it up there. Sorry! Guess I need to find some type of chat room or something. Anyone got any suggestions on places to go or things to read just E-mail me, or start posting more for me to read so I can keep my fingers/mouth shut. I get really boared this time of year, and I'm trying my best to avoid giving the dog a bath.

PS: Where's gooch these days?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 16:34:28 (ZULU)

Jeff Cooper,

Buy it quick !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 23:28:14 (ZULU)

CDC,

The package arrived today. Will get on it ASAP.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, November 2, 2007, at 23:41:16 (ZULU)

Jeff...

BUY IT NOW!!

I have two in 308 (and one in .223), and they are tack holers.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 00:41:31 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

I, too am a big fan of the used gun rack. Think about it; how many shooters are reloaders? Very few. How many of those remaining shooters can afford the ammo to wear a gun out? Bolt guns and large caliber handguns are rarely shot enough to hurt them, or, most times, enough to truly break them in! Most of the time, if you find a used .44 mag., I'd bet it's got less than 2 boxes of shells through it.

Jeff,

I, too believe in the "smack upside the head" method, but I find that it works better to use a lightweight switch, or the skinny end of a fishing pole. A cleaning rod should be handy, anyway.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 01:47:56 (ZULU)

Jeff: I took a riffle like that to ASA and did okay. I went home and dry-fired a bit then took it to the state 1,000 yd championship match. It was BY FAR the cheapest rifle on the line but it shot the highest score shot that day. Buy it now.

Joe M: The pkg came. It contained a lot of very nice gear. Thanks.

CDC'
Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 02:10:41 (ZULU)

Gents,

Jeff, snag that Winch and don't look back. I would ask for a standard three day inspection/return for funds just to cover yourself. There are some shady folk out there, but they don't last long in the gun trade or on the GunsAmerica site.

KenM, Sounds like you had some good troops and they had good leadership. A match made in heaven when it happens. My biggest run ins on active duty where with S-3's with no operational experience that wanted to dictate operations.

My last couple of CO's trusted me enough to give me the situation and general guidance, then backed away and let my men and self get it done. Don't think I've ever been happier.

Well, he did look at me kinda funny the night we were ordered to fall back from our positions and I demo'd the armory...;-)

Two beer story...

Charles H., You had to see IA for taking dinner? Shouldn't have been a problem. I'd assume you were still in communication with dispatch...

Seems like the new folks don't have an idea about what working together and teamwork is all about. Unfortunately, management seems to want them that way. It sucks goggles. Hope the outcome of your IA meeting is positive. If I were IA I'd be apologizing for even bothering you...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 02:21:38 (ZULU)

Another 'BUY IT NOW!".

Bolt out!

Bolt
Allergy season again in......., NC, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 02:26:23 (ZULU)

Tulsa is now not only jailing illegals, but fining/imprisoning anyone that aids them, to include giving them a ride. This should be national policy.

Local idiot practicing gun spinning shoots self in leg. Too bad it wasn't in the nuts. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 02:31:47 (ZULU)

Everyone Thanks for the imput! Takled to the guy today and I'm gonna trade him the Ruger Mark III hunter 22 pistol, and the 25wssm. I'm coming about $100 dollars on the bottom, but it's what my daughter and I both want, which makes it Ok with me. I'm gonna try and see if I can talk him out of some Leup bases and maybe QD rings. That is somethhing I would also like some advise on . Bases and rings. I've always used Leupold on my rifles, but I would like your opinions and why you use them. I'll be mounting a Ziess 3.5x10x44 on it till I can get another Leupold or Nightforce. Let me know what the Army and Marines are using and if there is something better in your opinion and why. Lots of info would be appreciated.

Sir Wes I made sure I got the three day look in the deal. He gets one too since I'm trading but I can't see anyreason he would back out. My guns are in great shape, and he gave me history of his gun. About 300 rounds. He does own an actual gun store and apparently does quite a business from what I could hear in the background. Not just an internet guy with FFL at home. That makes me feel a more at ease.

Travis Definately should be national policy. Maybe deport the helpers and take away thier ID's also. Just to see how long it takes them to getback and maybe figure out how the real illegals are doing it.

Double action guns are hell on body parts when twirling. Can't go any further cause I used twirl my Colt SAA unloaded all the time. I know that's bad, but I got pretty good.

See you guys tomorrow, over and out to the bed

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tennessee, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 04:06:15 (ZULU)

Jeff: "...and see if I can talk him out of some Leup bases and maybe QD rings."

You're reinventing the wheel. A guy named "Pablito" used to post here. He was a cranky old fart but he wrote a good primer. Click my name.

CDC'
Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 04:39:09 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Sentencing people to Mexico for assisting illegals would be funny as hell. If Mexico wanted to bitch about it, all we'd have to say is, "Well, we'll take 'em back if you come get YOUR people out of OUR country!"

That fucking Schwarzeneger needs to either be thrown into a wood chipper feet first or deported. Same for the Kennedy's.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 05:20:29 (ZULU)

Wes Howe,

I'm not from Missouri, but you're gonna have to show me on that one.

Not the "hit harder" part, the "shoot flatter" part.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 05:54:05 (ZULU)

Gents,

JC, I knew somone was going to call me on the 190 Gr. SMK's shooting flatter than 175 gr. SMK's out to 600 yards. I wouldn't have believed it either, but I have done it and continue to do so...

My load for the Sierra 175 grain SMK gives me 2,650 FPS while the load for the 190 grain SMK uses IMR-4064 and chrono's at 2,608 FPS.

Come ups at 600 yards are 15.0 MOA for the 175 gr. SMK's and 14.5 MOA for the 190 gr. SMK's. Not much difference, but the 190's do shoot slightly flatter in my rifles. A whole 3" flatter...;-0

Beyond 600 yards the 175 gr. SMK's fly flatter...

Jeff, glad you got the rifle. We'll wait on the range report.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 06:36:36 (ZULU)

Jeff: Consider yourself lucky that I did not stumble a page or two ahead and find that HV myself. I'd have bought it---and still will if you get dumb and back out. CDC is tellin' ya to read around this site some and find out all the dirt on the Loopy QDs and bases. For the best rings for budget--I'd say the burris zee's are the best available under 50 bucks. Get a good base though! Any pic-rail/ weaver type will workie--but only a few workie well and forever. I use Marty's stuff from badger ord. BTW, I wouldn't worry about that 100 dollar "loss" much--in my mind, you are way ahead on this deal. Look around at what these things sell for used--and see what I mean. Last one i saw locally was a 30.06 that was marked north of 1200. Someone other than me did buy it, too.

I too am bored and posting too much;))

CDC: Merry Christmas! Those things are what my previous profession called "expendable items." I tend to think of them that way still. So, in my eyes I sent you a box of junk;)) But like they say--"one man's junk is..." Seriously though, I hope it helps fix that problem in the future!

Oh hell, I better get to bed! I have to go rattle at bucks tomorrow. I think I am a trophy hunter with this bow thing, just passing all the little six and eights up as I watch them charge in looking for a fight. I figure if their head gear is smaller than the antlers I am banging away with--they ain't worth the draw weight. The meat will come during gun deer! But for now, bringing them in seems easy enough. That makes me think I can wait for a decent buck.

Joe M
Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 07:06:03 (ZULU)

Wes,

I'm running my 175's a little faster than you are with yours. I'm getting just a little over 2900 fps out of a Broughton 1:10 bbl using 46 grns of RL-15. Comeup is 12.25 at 600. Slight pressure signs, but not enough to worry about.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 08:05:24 (ZULU)

Jeff C.

Runnin Leupold QRW's on the DPMS LR308(AR10),my reason for the QRW's were for pickin up a NV scope and swappin over to day scope as the application was needed.NV for the yotes and dayscope on deer.At the time I started this brainstorm WI DNR had a rule saying that you could not use lights at the point of kill on coyotes.It was ok to use lights at point of kill with raccoon but not on coyotes.That rule has been revised.I am not sure if it was by popular complaint,or if it was because everyone was using a light anyway.But I wanted something that I could swap fast and easy w/out a loss of zero.Ran 60 rds thru it rapid fire and they did not shoot loose....But I check them routinely anyway,not sure how well they will hold up on a bolt gun.I know there is better...but they are workin for now.If you decide to run with them I suggest that you dont take the lever/screw assembly apart to see what makes it tick...gettin them back together is a real pia.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 10:09:33 (ZULU)

Jeff C.

I've got 2 Ziess 3.5x10x44. I really like that scope, to me that scope is the best bang for the buck there is. One is mounted an a Model 70 7mm WSM in the Burris Zee rings and there have been no problems holding the scope in place. I'm going to rescope my sons 243 and am going with the Zee's .

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 11:44:46 (ZULU)

Scheduled to get what's left of Noel as a post-tropical storm rolling thru Nova Scotia on Saturday night / early Sunday AM. Up to 140Km/hr winds and up to 40mm of rain is current predictions.

http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/warnings/report_e.html?ns1

Wish me luck.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 12:55:23 (ZULU)

Jeff...

For an off the rack match rifle, the Winchester M70 HBV, w/stainless barrel, is THE best rifle going. Don't let that puppy get away.

For rings and bases, there are two ways to go...

... the standard style (not bomb proof, but VERY good):

A GOOD quality Weaver cross slot base, like the Leupold QRW (BASES, not rings), or the Warne Weaver "Maxima" base:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=144897&t=11082005

which is better than the Leupold, and half the price.

For rings, the Burris "Signature ZEE" rings are the only way to go for standard rings - they allow you to tilt the scope for more range, and won't mar the scope tube (which is a BAD thing, says Martha).

For the Bomb proof set up, there are Leupold MK4 base(s) and rings... and the Badger base(s) and rings.

I have both on my tac match rifles, and both are outstanding, but be prepared to spend around $250 to $300 for a set of rings and base(s).

I like two piece bases cuz it's easier to get your fingers inside the action to clear a stuck case (ask Ken about "Stuck Cases" at the Storm Mountain snipie match ;))) HA!

Some guys like one piece bases... "You pays your money, and takes your choice!"

At this point, they are not necessary for you.

Also... if you go this way, you MUST have the rings lapped - Marty (Badger) bores his rings co-axially, but the problem is that all rifle actions are finished up on belt sanders, so the contours vary, and so each set of rings must be lapped to match the action.

If you don't, you will get dreaded "ring marks" on your $800 scope, and when you go to sell it, those marks will cost you $200 in value, cuz no one wants a marked and scratched scope (I won't buy one at any price).

Make sure you have a bubble level on there, somewhere.

'lito (the "Cranky" ol' curmudgeon ;)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 13:58:40 (ZULU)

JC - 2900 fps with 175s in a .308.. How long is that barrel? 30" would be my guess, and even then, I think you are pushing them hard enough to ensure the barrel makers don't forget your name. I'm pushing mine at 2750 and I thought I was running hot.

medicjim
Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 14:05:13 (ZULU)

Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 15:29:32 (ZULU)

Thanks for the advise guys,

I can't wait to get the rifle. I'm shipping my guns Monday 2nd day UPS. They should arrive by Wed and he should ship back to me Then or Thursday. So If it doesn't stolen off the docs next weekend, I should have it next week sometime. I'm gonna tell him insure it at the price of a new one just in case. That's what it'll take to replace it.

I think I'll go with standard Leup rings and bases till next summer cause of bad flying season and short money till then. After that I'm gonna replace them with Badger Ord 20 MOA bases and rings. Hopefully I can also switch the scope for a Leup LRT then. I've got a NEF.243 that needs a scope on it and I'll put the Ziess there. I'd stick it on my Encore muzzleloader but it gets total emersion cleaning baths after shooting. I know they have garuntees, but just can't make myself put anything more expensive than a Nikon Buckmaster on something I'm gonna dunk in steaming hot water. And, the buck master is fine for short shooting out to 250yds.

Don't know where my head was last night, but I can't believe I missed opening morning of muzzleloader season. Set the alarm on my phone and then laid my pants down on top of it. I didn't hear the thing untill 7:45 when my wife woke me and asked "why I was still there, and what was that noise comming from my pants in the floor." Life goes on, I'll get a doe this afternoon for the meat, and to try to control the population. A lot of people don't know it but, Tennessee has one of the highest deer per acre rates in the country. Now if we can just get an "8pt 16in spread" regulation with a "4 year or older exception" we might really get the trophy buck rate to go up. Too bad the rednecks won't go for it.

I just noticed we had member numbers. Wish I knew what my origional one was.

Again, thanks to all for the .308 information and advise. I'm not new to long distance shooting, but I am new to doing it with a "low" power rifle, so keep it coming.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 17:57:54 (ZULU)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tragic Local Courtroom Drama plays out in Omaha-

Omaha, NE (AP) -A seven-year old boy was at the center of a Douglas

County courtroom drama yesterday when he

challenged a court ruling over who should have custody of him. The boy

has a history of being beaten by his

parents and the judge initially awarded custody to his aunt, in keeping

with child custody law and regulation

requiring that family unity be maintained to the highest degree

possible. The boy surprised the court when he proclaimed that his aunt

beat him more than his parents and he adamantly refused to live with

her.

When the judge then suggested that he live with his grandparents, the

boy cried and said that they also beat him. After considering the

remainder of the immediate family and learning that domestic violence

was apparently a way of life among them, the judge took the

unprecedented step of allowing the boy to propose who should have

custody of him.

After two recesses to check legal references and confer with the child

welfare officials, the judge granted temporary custody to the Nebraska

Cornhuskers, whom the boy firmly believes are not capable of beating

anyone.

__________________

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 18:08:34 (ZULU)

Jeff...

>" I just noticed we had member numbers. Wish I knew what my origional one was."<

Where did you see the member number???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 18:11:48 (ZULU)

Click. Interesting info.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 18:48:57 (ZULU)

Lito

First and second clickable boxes next to the displayed SC member name have the member number embedded into the shortcut,

which some web browsers display.

Yours displays thusly:

http://www.snipercountry.com/cgi-bin/DisplayProfile.asp?MemberNumber=316

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 19:03:27 (ZULU)

Thanks Rod... my browser (Foxfire) won't show it.

So I'm #316 huh...

... damn, I'm feelin' older and older every day ;))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 19:40:40 (ZULU)

Travis, thank you. Some interesting recipe's there, and I am going to try a few.

Anyone have anything to add about the electrical rust removal? I have a woodsman that needs a bit of the attention.

As an aside, I am awaiting for the export/import process to finalize, on a Crusader. Christmas, whenever it arrives.

God Bless, and Stay Safe

Sean.

Editted to add: Hey 'Lito, they made numbers back then?

Sean
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 19:53:10 (ZULU)

Lito: Numbers That's why I'm curious what my old number was. I started posting here in 98-99 I think. I'm don't think we had passwords back then. I seem to remember the first sniperquest competition being a big subject. Was the year "The Jeff Cooper" whom my father knew from the service before he was famous, and named me after designed that Styer scout rifle.

Muzzleloaders: Why in the crap can't someone put one out that has a stock long enough to get your head away from the scope. or a mount that moves the scope foward about 8 inches. I'm tired of busted noses and eyes. Gotta find a longer "custom" stock for my encore.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 20:22:18 (ZULU)

Pakistan under martial law

Pakistan Supreme Court was just about to rule on validity of President Musharraf's re-election.

This was predicted earlier as a possibility...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/03/pakistan.emergency/index.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 3, 2007, at 23:41:23 (ZULU)

Gents,

JC, that load of yours must be a humdinger! Like medicjim, I was wondering about barrel length, OAL, brass, and how many grains of SEMTEX you were using to get 2,900 FPS. To me that's just plain scary. Had one heavily compressed load of IMR-4064 that was giving me 2,750 with a 175 gr SMK, but stopped using it. While I wasn't seeing any extreme pressure signs I was seeing enough to go back to my old standby of 44.0 gr. of Varget. I know, I've got NO imagination, but I don't have to worry about my rifle (and self) being scattered all over. That load does what I want. Besides, if I need something that shoots flatter I can always reach for my 6.5 X .284...:-)

Travis, your "Cornhusker" joke had me ROTFLMAO. You really ought to put spew alerts on those...

Sounds like things are getting interesting in Pakistan. Wonder who is keeping eyes on those nukes of theirs...besides us.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 02:51:09 (ZULU)

Three Shots Three Kills and, before someone says it, I changed hides between shots. The only problem is the first one still hasn't been found. Beginning to wonder if deer drag thier wonded away. Actually it's a problem with non expanding muzzle loader bullets. Figured that out when I found the second and third. .45 cal going in .45 comming out. That's sucks cause I hate to waste or lose meat. Will look more for the first one in the morning when there's light. It'll be cold enough here tonight that the meat will still be good as long as the bullet didn't get into the abdominal cavity. I can't wait for gun season. Head shots aren't hard to find.

Anyway back to the scopes on muzzle loaders. I now have stiches in my eyebrow. 4, done by your's truelly.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 02:53:53 (ZULU)

CatWhacker: "Undocumented Aliens" lacks sensitivity. The proper term is "Non-traditional migrants". It is kind of like Clinton's grotesque sexual assaults being called "Inappropriate courtship".

Joe: "Expendable items"? You are being modest. Thanks again.

CDC'
Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 05:29:18 (ZULU)

Wes Howe & Medicjim,

It's really not that bad. I use a small vibrator (no, not that kind) to get the 46 grns of RL-15 to settle as far as possible, usually down to the case/shoulder junction. The bullet is seated so the beginning of the boattail is just at the neck/shoulder junction so there's no powder compression. I've read that Broughton barrels are "fast" meaning you can use hotter loads with less pressure because of the 5C rifling and that seems to bear out. BTW, the bbl is 28". And like I said, there's very little in the way of pressure signs. The primers lose a little of their radius but that's about all. Bolt lift is very easy and the brass looks fine.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 06:21:47 (ZULU)

Guys,

Check this site out! Damn good prices, if you need several hundred. www.brassworldeshop.com

Wes,

That would a ruined the joke!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 14:49:04 (ZULU)

Guys,

What are your opinions on using .307 diameter bullets in my .30-30? I got a couple hundred Sierra 150 gr. flat noses that were labeled "150 gr. Flat Nose 30-30" for $15. Couldn't pass it up. My '94 was made in 1972, I believe, and I don't know when they started recommending the use of .308 diameter bullets.

Also, do any of you have much experience using 180 or 185 gr. jacketed soft round nose bullets in a .30-30? What kinda results did you get? Are they pretty much just good for a short range bear/moose hunting kinda load?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 15:20:58 (ZULU)

Guys,

If they start banning black guns, here's the alternative. Click.

And for all you married (or permanently shacked up) guys......

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=59740

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 16:09:58 (ZULU)

Help, does anyone have any extra neoprene they are willing to part with. I just threw away those 2 pieces that come with waders about 2 weesk ago and then saw the tripod on the tips section. I'm willing to buy and pay shipping if necessary.

thanks, Jeff

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 18:45:10 (ZULU)

Hi guys:

Came out of post-tropical storm Noel with no major issues. Lost power from 04:00 to 13:17 Atlantic. Apparently 170,000 people in Nova Scotia shared the same fate. Word of thanks to power linemen. Wind gusts were probably over 120Km/h locally.

http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=77221&sc=89

Went to an indoor IPSC match that had to be cancelled because the range had no power either.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 18:58:07 (ZULU)

I've used standard .308" diameter 150 and 170 gr projectiles in my 1977 mfgr Win Model 94 s/n 4517xxx No issues.

lookup W94 mfgr date w/serial number here:

http://www.savage99.com/winchester1894_dates.htm

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 19:54:14 (ZULU)

Jeff - older mouse pads are neoprene. Just about everyone with a computer has one laying around.

medicjim
Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 21:05:45 (ZULU)

I can't fucking believe theses guys. What ever happened to swearing to UPHOLD the law? These bastards sure aren't helping with the public's perception of cops.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 4, 2007, at 22:57:49 (ZULU)

Jim Perfect. I never thought about that. I've got a couple myself somewhere I think. Thanks, now off to find them.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 02:05:11 (ZULU)

CDC: I am glad you like that stuff. Plenty more just like it in my boxes and cabinets around here! But it really, really is considered "expendables" by the supply system--I'm not kidding;)) Hey, whatta we care--its YOUR tax dollars after all. Heheh.

My farm-ghillie nailed the local vegetation. It is a cloaking device. I think I can thin out the shoulders and the arms a bit without losing anything but excess bulk--but the color scheme is PERFECT! I used standard farm burlap (tan-brown) both dirty as sin and clean, an old army camo net--the little ones that fit in the cargo pocket, little squiggly strips of OG 107 (cut in semi curcles down th lengths), green/ brown-woodland patterned burlap, and realtree burlap with Poplar tree patterns and fall colors. I also tossed in bailing twine 6-10 inch cuts, split in half down the length, and frayed into friz here and there. With no additional add-in--this thing blends in with the pine and cedar on the SE ridge, the marsh in the north and the one in the west, all fields, and in the hardwood stands. The base color is the two shades of tan.

My wife, who thought I should have made it in the living room with the family--is amazed at the mess it makes:)) The arms room is covered edge to edge with ghillie worms.

I sat on a finger saturday, back to a big field and barely off the crest looking toward the wooded ridge to my south. I was in a terrible spot--but I was trying to stay close to my nephew who was out with a bow for his first time. The wind was 8-12 from due west, which put my scent on the east side of the finger---usually not the path any deer take as it is closer to the buildings. So naturally, the buck took that route! He would have needed to take four more steps to hit a shooting lane across the scrub oaks, but he got my scent and snorted up a storm, stomped, and hauled ass. A nice 8-pointer. That was saturday's only action for me. My nephew had a shot at a doe, but missed due to deflection. He jumped at the shot instead of waiting for her to enter an open area--and shot thru a tangle of branches. We had a little talk about that. He is now suitably inpressed on the amount of deflection an arrow takes, especially after recovering his miss about ten yards off line from his POA. Today's hunt was mine alone. I took a position in the back forty (my shotgun CQB spot). I watched 7 turkey and 3 doe walk by within 15 yards--one doe got within 12ft of me! The wind shifted more north, and it was in my face. I was tempted on the turkey---but they don't taste good enough to merit an arrow (pricey buggers). So now I am wondering if'n I can have my shotgun along??? I need to read up on two-species/ two weapon hunting. In all, it is great to just sit in the woods as an extension of the vegetation. Tomorrow I may go out after the school bus--if the winds allow me to move up a ridge. I'll be out in the afternoon for sure. Now this is more like it...for awhile there, I thought retirement was a bust with laundry as the day's highlight.

Also got in some shooting. Sighted in an '06 and a 44 mag sat afternoon. Country living rocks.

Travis: Browsed a couple of topics on that link. I was thinking it is a joke--a site that is designed to make cops look like stupid asshats. I sure hope these aren't really cops posting this crap. But, I have met a few that do qualify as jackasses---out of mutltitudes that did not---there always a few who ruin it for the many every where you look. Heheh, the few LEO that were utter shit stains sure do stand out in memory (as is always the case regardless of profession). But to publish these thoughts in an open forum is plain-assed brain dead...so i have to doubt it is real LE doing it. But if it is real live cops---holy shit! I especially liked that arrogant us vs the civies condescending BS...I laughed at that one.

On the other hand, if this is straight-up; no wonder so many departments come out so strongly for gun control!!! It must be tough having these attitudes while the "civies" (hahaha) are still armed.

Actually, some of that shit turned my stomach.

Our fellow hawg-LEOs need to hit that link and reassure me. Or totally ruin my hopes.

Joe M
Monday, November 5, 2007, at 05:39:19 (ZULU)

Joe,

Check the archives. A few months back, I got hard core flamed for saying just that here on the DR to someone doing the same thing.

I've gotten tickets after a long, shitty day doing something dangerous. I'm pretty sure fighting bulls to protect kids that wanted to ride them kind of equates. Nobody ever gave me a break. I don't recall expecting one, either.

Rules are rules. If you're the one that's supposed to enforce them, you shouldn't flaunt them.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 07:05:45 (ZULU)

It's amazing. All the people that bellyache about how the cops shouldn't be above the law (and we're not, believe me. we get hammered harder than anyone else) are the first ones to whine and wheedle for a "warning" after blowing through a red light at 50 in a 30 because they're late for something or another, or just not paying attention. Let's say you work for the water board, and you're out looking for people violating no-water rules during a drought. You see your best friend's kid washing his car in the driveway 15 minutes after the curfew. You gonna write him, or give him a warning? He should get a citation, right? No one is immune, right?

About a year ago, I stopped a fellow that was driving like a total imbecile and almost T-boned me while I was on the way back to the station. He stopped in the parking lot of an apartment complex. When I approached and asked for his license, I knew right away that he was driving impaired. I could also see that, as he was reaching for his license, most of his left arm, and a good portion of his shoulder and neck, were missing. As he was about my age, and I saw the VA hospital sticker on his van, I figured he was a vet and asked him. Yup. Lost a lot of body parts in an engagement when he was a scared kid in Vietnam. His young wife was just sitting there, crying quietly. I guess I should have busted his ass and run him in for DWI, as he's not "above the law". But, being the arrogant, haughty asshole that I am, I helped her get him out of the van and into the apartment, and then I reamed him out. I've seen him several times since, and he's been as sober as a judge. I've got a ticket book that's a year old, and I make at least four traffic stops a day, mainly to get people to think about what they're doing.

Everyone loves to jump on the soap box about "rogue cops". Until they need one. Take a pill, Travis.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 14:25:33 (ZULU)

And no, teaching some child to ride a bull does not equate. You can both walk away from that one. What would you think of a cop that walked away from a violent family disturbance because the Neanderthal beating the hell out of his wife with a baseball bat was bigger than him/her, and he/she had no backup? Real story.

There ARE exceptions. Everywhere.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 14:34:05 (ZULU)

Actually, Charles, NOBODY needs rogue cops. When folks call 911, they don't ask for an unreasonable asshole with an attitude. They ask for help. Just because your job sucks or is dangerous at times, doesn't mean the public should have to put up with you when want to be a dick.

And what's this shit about a kid washing the car? If some little turd can't follow the rules, he needs punished. If his Dad can't deal with it, he's too uptight to call a friend.

Cops are no more deserving of special treatment than judges, lawyers, girlscouts, clowns, or poodles. Their family, friends, and families of friends shouldn't be immune from the law either. You're about what one would expect from a Texas cop.

Ever considered counseling?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 14:59:20 (ZULU)

Well, as a retired cop and one who supervised as a Patrol Sgt and Captain, I always said to my guys, "You will have less stress and resentment if you just understand everything is your fault."

No matter who started it and what occurred, it is your fault at the end of the day.

You will be second guessed for doing something, nothing and anything. And... that is by the public, the courts and your own administration.

That is just the way it is and you can't prove me wrong.

All that being said, I loved every bit of my career and the young officers that worked for and with me.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 15:35:32 (ZULU)

"You're about what one would expect from a Texas cop."

Travis, if, by that, you mean one who enforces the law with common sense and compassion, well, then, (a) I hope you're right, and (b) I'm pleased to live in Texas.

The motto of many police departments is, "To Protect and to Serve."

There are times when rigidly enforcing the letter of the law does neither.

Good cops - of which I'd guess Charles is one - know that, and acquire some judgement about that. So do those of us who get old enough to realize the enormous magnitude of our own imperfection.

Charles: we had George from S.A.P.D. S.W.A.T. down here on Saturday, helping us run a match. We had a good time together chasing shooters.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 15:55:39 (ZULU)

Wow. Travis, you need to have some perspective. Yeah, you will find the wrong types IN EVERY WALK OF LIFE. But those exceptions prove the rule the other way. In your life--how many time did you walk by a cop, say "hi" and get a pleasent response? I bet that went totally unnoticed--hundreds of times. But one day you get caught speeding or with faulty equipment, and you are put out because this "stop" is making you later than you were--and your tone isn't "ooops, sorry" but rather "don't you have something better to do, like chase bank robbers or other REAL criminals." Then, you come away wondering why that cop treated you like shit. That happens too, everyday. And the guy on the receiving end will remember the cop who made him late, while forgetting the hundreds who had nice words and smiles in other situtations. Just the way it is.

That said, there is anecdotal evidence building--and that link does nothing to disprove it--that there is an "us against them" mentality that is not healthy for anyone. Society bears most of the blame for this, when you think about it. Today's kids, and yesterday's for that matter, are raised with an "all about me" permissiveness that is frankly anti-social. Not all, mind you---I am sure most parents that stop by this site ain't the mainstream parent--but society at large tends to be no-adverse with their kids. No limits, no manners, no saying "no." We reap what we sow, and we are planting the seeds of self-centered little worthless shits left, right and center throughout. These poorly raised hellions then get cars and go out in public at some point---and they represent the most likely segment to get pulled over--and hence, the most likely encounter for LEOs. That gets old real fast, I am sure.

But simultaneously, to treat everyone the same way out of habit gets old for guys like myself, too.

It is impossible for me to judge, one way or the other. I remember the assholes (in this state, two encounters)--while not even batting an eye at the rest of the positive encounters (too many to count, as a recruiting CO, I had many, many chats with LE types and a couple of deserved tickets, in my uniform, that were respectful and professional on both sides of the door frame). One asshole occurred after I played good samaritan at a multi-car accident---while the one trooper got in my face, five brother officers stepped in, cooled his jets, and apologized to me for his anger. yet, I recall the asshole with clarity--not the rest of the officers who were on their game that morning. So, with that perspective, the "us vs. them" can and does go both ways. If you were trying to be helpful and cheerful day in and day out--while being shit on by those who receive your help...well, I don't walk in those shoes, and if you, Travis, have not either---engage brain before engaging mouth on this subject.

This is a mutli-faceted topic---and the only thing I know for sure is that those posts on that link do not make for better community relations;))

LEO ought to be aware that perceptions, right or wrong, tend to be reality for those holding them. If you hear or see that "us vs. them" mentality in a brother officer---you should remind them that it is not always so.

Lindy--Mottos are nice. But it needs to be a mindset for it to matter to those you serve. If 1% of the population is criminal--and gets 80% of your time as a cop, and another 20% is rude and stupid, and gets another 10% of your time, that leaves 10% of your time dealing with 79% of the population that is law abiding and trying to live their life out of your way. If you bring the same attitude toward them that you use for the 21% who deserve it--then problems arise with perceptions. I can only imagine that it is hard to step up and down the scale of repsonses--especially when you usually deal with shitbags one after another in steady streams. It has to be as hard as, say, a thirty minute firefight followed by an evacuation of a children's clinic. Doing the hard thing right is the mark of a professional. Some can, some can't--and we are all human.

Last thing: If I were king for a day, I'd raise salaries for LEO across the board, and staff every department with the quality you deserve to work alongside from top to bottom. Quality has a price. Looking at some salary ranges (my wife, if you recall, was in LE) paints a shameful picture on how we (society) treat our officers from the get-go. Shit, just stop payment on all the farm subsidies with Manhatten mailing addresses and you could give every cop in America a 1000/ year raise:)) Look at the salary for a college professor, whihc is a dime a dozen psuedo intellectual within some of the "new disciplines" out there---and we pay these fuckheads more than the patrol Sergeant??? We do not have our priorities straight. But for those few who needed, absolutely needed LEO help right now---those few get it, I am sure!

I could go on and on (most of you think i did anyway) about how this so-called problem cuts one way and then the other---but if we "feel" one way or the other---we haven't really thought about it. For those, the blame is shared equally with the opposite side.

Thinking, and doing so critically, never hurts.

Joe M
Monday, November 5, 2007, at 18:34:31 (ZULU)

Travis,

" Ever considered counseling? "

IMHO, if you are suggesting that Charles could do work as a counsellor, and help those whom have issues, then granted, that may be possible, if he's interested, and good on you.

If however, you are suggesting that he needs counselling, then you are out of line. Sorry, but I am not aware of anything that qualifies you to judge.

Take it for what it's worth, and you'll still get change back.

All,

As asked already, has anyone any experience with the electrical process of removing rust from firearms? I would like to hear what you know or think.

God Bless, and Stay Safe, ALL!

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 21:54:37 (ZULU)

Well, I might be sorry for saying this, because they might soon not let me fill out a 4473.

I attend counseling now and have for awhile. I for one don't see how you get through a military career (Force Recon/Infantry) and a street cop career (Patrol/Narcotics/SWAT) and not have some kind of issues.

You know, about the 4th relationship....you think, hmmm it might be me.

I ain't crazy (quiet Chuck) but I have a temper that is always on slow simmer and that goes in a second with the proper trigger.

Cops can become very cynical and use gallows humor to survive the stress. I wish I learned the ways to deal with it years ago. I hope more cops do.

Chuck, come to think of it....you ain't right. ;)

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 22:47:24 (ZULU)

Well said Joe (as ever).

An observation: when I got off active duty a lot of family & friends said I should be a State Troper. I declined. I know enough about that job -and myself- to know it's not something I could do without going to prison. I don't like the Us-vs-Them attitude any better than any of you, but I'm willing to cut LE a break. They put up with more than I want to.

Personal: Thank you all for your prayers. They have been felt, believe me. Things are on an even keel, but we have a long road ahead of us. Continued prayers would be gratefully recieved.

Shooting (imagine!?!) The cross-talk about velocity with varrious loads in 308WIN interested me. I shoot a 10FP Savage w/a 26" barrel. I fire-lapped it, and the bore is very smooth (rarely fouls at all!). 43.2gns of VARGET gets me 2700fps out of this rig. I've chrono'd it on several occasions with consistent results. No pressure signs, and very easy bolt operation. Does this seem fast to anyone? Comments?

SSG Mac

SSG Mac
Monday, November 5, 2007, at 22:59:37 (ZULU)

http://peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SW_IW_M26.pdf

The M26, a 12-Gauge Modular Accessory Shotgun System (MASS), is under development. It is intended for attachment underneath the M4 Modular Weapon System (MWS). It zeroes to the host weapon and fires lethal, non-lethal, and door breaching rounds.

The M26 is also designed as a stand-alone system and comes with a collapsible buttstock. With a Picatinny rail on top, the receiver can be used to mount sighting equipment.

The bolt handle is mountable on either side for ambidextrous handling.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 23:16:56 (ZULU)

SSG Mac:

What projectile weight?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 5, 2007, at 23:20:38 (ZULU)

Duh Huh! That would be 175gn SMKs My memory's like a lumber shed: thing wanted always buried.

SSG Mac
Monday, November 5, 2007, at 23:36:38 (ZULU)

Archives: Funny thing, I was reading through the archives and ran into some old posts I made asking pretty much the same questions lately except about a different rifle. Back then it was my 300win. and some good starting loadsWhat's really funny is how everyone wants to tell me the "newbe" about barrel floating and how the company couldn't have screwed up it has to be the "newbe's fault" The posts were form '98. Back when Pablito was still Pablito. I thought I remembered when he first started posting questions and was the "newbe".

Cops: Of the last five drug K9's I trained, 2 of thier handlers are in the Fed Pen right now. 1 for posession of Meth and sales of anhydrous amonia, and 1 for mail and insurance fraud along with arson. They aren't all bad 3 of them are still on the beat 5 or more days a week. Of the 2 in the pen, 1 had the attitude and one didn't. Of all the rest I know and have worked with, it's about 50/50 split. Depends on where you are in the city or the country.

Send Me your favorite accuracy loads for the .308 and does anyone use accubonds in competition. The 180's have a great BC and I get sub MOA with them in my 300RUM out to 1000. If so the load could be used for target and hunting.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 00:41:17 (ZULU)

Cutting Law Enforcement a break?

The bad ones should be fired or locked up.

The good ones should be treated like professionals, respected and paid well to do a tough job. I honestly believe the best part of our judicial system is the 'discretion' left to the street cop....

medicjim
Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 01:39:49 (ZULU)

Man this pushes a lot of people's hot button!

Jim, by 'give LE a break' I meant cutting otherwise good officers -who perhaps we see just after he's had to deal with Joe Dirtbag- a break if he's not quite the soul of deportment & courtesy. We all have bad days, and aren't always able to wear-the-porcaline-smile for the next person we bump into. There's a humanity -humaneness- to Justice that is abscent in mere legality. I don't begrudge a good man who happens to be a Police Officer from execising his judgement. I think it's only when that latitude is guided by the Us-Them view, or selfish gain, that it goes wrong and becomes repugnant.

Like I said: hats off to you in LE. You guys do a job I don't want. And of course, none of that justifies a Cop gone bad. He turns himself from a servant to others into a pitiless SELF that hurts everything he touches. I agree with you that THAT man has to be found removed (and I don't envy the guy who has to do that either).

Edited to add: Jim, looking back at your post, we're clearly in agreement. Somehow at first it seemed I'd really hit your sore spot. -I agree with your last esp.

308 WIN loads: I have two that work well for me. BHA brass (neck sized), CCI-BR2 primer, 44.5gns VARGET, under 150 NBTs- 2900fps. That's my hunting (everything) load, and it holds an honest moa to 300yds. It won't stabilize past about 800 out of my 1 in 10 twist barrel. the other is 43.2gns Varget in Lake City (FLS'd) brass, w/WLR primers, under 175 SMKs- 2700fps. It holds moa(-) to 1K when I do my part- rare enough. I'm pretty anal about brass prep, and use a Forster comp seating die to assemble them both. These both seem pretty std to me from what I've heard others doing -nothing fancy here, just what works in my Savage.

Bill

SSG Mac
Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 03:43:15 (ZULU)

Click. What a stereotypical professional.

Related to the above link: http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1967.asp

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 03:57:14 (ZULU)

Gents,

I can't comment on this from the position of a street cop. Only as a retired Marine Officer, H-P consultant/employee, and someone who has worked in the Corrections Field for six years.

What is trying to be said is that no matter what you become "tainted" by the good and the bad of your profession.

The good is that you "protect and serve", feel you make a difference, and put on the uniform every day with a positive attitude. That can change with time and exposure. Your profession becomes "work" and can/does wear down the best of officers. Some deal with it by wearing the badge 24 hours a day...it will take the toll in broken relationships, alcoholism, and a host of other behaviors relating to the stress of the job.

The profession tends to "eat it's young". Most of those who started with or after me are gone. Some through normal attrition and others through violations of policy or downright criminal acts. A co-worker once commented that "sometimes it's hard to tell a big difference between inmates and staff". He's been proven right on numerous occasions.

Perhaps worst is that good officers get lumped with the bad apples and soon everyone assumes you are like the trash that just got fired, etc. It's hard to remain positive under those conditions. Especially, when something minor happens and management has a knee jerk reaction and you become "guilty until proven innocent".

Jim R., your right. If you go to work assuming everything is your fault you'll have the right mind set. Personally, I can't do that and won't.

In short this is a thankless job and you wonder what makes good officers continue to function under these conditions. The term dedication comes to mind, but dedication only goes so far.

Most of the good law enforcement professionals continue the work because they honestly feel they can still make a difference in some small way. IF they are allowed too. This gets back to the officer discretion portion of the discussion. This IS where we get the most bang for the buck.

Counseling was mentioned and it can be helpful. There are some officers that go on a weekly basis. Just to keep things in perspective.

Frankly, I may be looking at a change myself. A close friend and Doctor has recommended I look for other work because of "what the job is doing to me". I'm a little dense so he's going to have to explain that one.

My advice is give the guy in uniform some slack. You'll find that most time that is returned with interest. Those that can't find a way to deal with others as good human beings probably won't be around long anyway.

Time to shut my big mouth.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 04:52:32 (ZULU)

Travis, as a former LEO I can tell you that is not THE NORM. I know he can handle his but I gotta tell you I've met Charles and a more decent guy you could not find anywhere. Your posts show a serious lack of perspective... something about walking a mile in a man's shoes or somesuch.

Joe

Joe Ducos
Turlock, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 05:17:10 (ZULU)

Guys,

The couseling comment was not meant as a jab. Hell, I've been considering it, lately. It DOES help some people with anger issues. A stranger you never see anywhere but at their office is a pretty good sounding board.

As men, we've gotten old enough to see where some of our "issues" come from, but really have nobody to discuss them with. Really. It'd be weird if one of your fishing buddies started telling you he didn't get hugged enough, wouldn't it?

I was discussing the "being pissed off all the time" issue with a good friend today, and he told me that when he was doing cruises on submarines, that guys would take St. John's wort to keep from getting too pissed and killing each other.

Apparently, My wife thinks I have anger issues too. I mentioned the St. John's Wort when I got home, and she went directly to the store and got some. (She was on her way, anyhow) Cost is about $4-8. I'll let y'all know if I want to beat the shit out of people less in a week or so.

Joe,

As for walking in Charles' or anyone elses shoes, how about they walk in the shoes of people who get financially ruined by tickets for doing the same things they're letting their buddies get away with?

I'm not trying to put anyone's head on a pike here, I'm just sick of the "we have it so tough, you wouldn't understand, blah, blah, we're gonna break the law because we deserve to" crap.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 05:50:50 (ZULU)

Wow. This thing grew up fast. I wasn't even really uupset when I suggested Travis take a pill, but maybe I was on to something. Dude, you got a serious case of penis envy. You are envious of me because I can be such a prick!

Finger....you're right. I AIN'T right. I know it. I embrace it.

Counselling, well, I've been there. Maybe because of the times I've had my boots soaked in blood, or the brains of the 16-year-old boy I pulled out of what was once a car. (WE didn't even know his girlfriend was in the car, she was so folded up in the footwell. I had to go get her parents.) Or the little 8-year-old that died while looking in my eyes, shot by some asshat gangbanger upset because some other asshat "disrespected" him. Perhaps it's the stench of the rotting corpses I've had to go in and identify when the neighbors "haven't seen Mrs. Smith" in a week. In August. I've heard the death rattle so many times it don't even get to me any more. Hey, Travis....you ever go to a botched murder suicide where the 80 year old man screws the pooch because at the last minute he can't put one in the head of his 82 year old cancer-ridden wife? They couldn't afford the medical bills anymore, and decided to go out together. Both of them laying there, sucking air but not knowing it. Yeah, I'm one of those arrogant Texas cops. I get visitors sometimes, oh, about one or two in the morning. They like to come in and sit with me. Yeah, I know about counselling. And I know about prayer. God keeps me sane. Jesus suffered more than me, and he keeps me on an even keel. So, if I get a break from a state trooper, or I give one to another brother cop, kiss my ass. All I want to do is do the best I can, and help all I can. Ask BKS. I ain't even gon into the HALF of it.

If you want to criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Then, when you DO criticize them, yer a mile away, and you got their shoes!

Wow. I guess I need to go smoke a Cuban. To all you other guys, sorry about the rant. It's been a hard year.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 06:22:46 (ZULU)

Click. FAA Blocks old man from boarding a plane with a little metal cross in his pocket.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 06:58:51 (ZULU)

The sight is a waste of bandwidth. You don't have to give 'em a break but it would be courtious. You would appreciate it. It's not a right though, and I don't think most of the LEO's I know take it as a right. They would appreciate the courtesy and with the exception of 1 "who I know would write his mother and has said he would and takes tickets without asking for the courtesy" don't use thier badge to get anything extra and don't expect it. courtesy not necesity.

Gun painting: Do you guys paint your bolts? I know not the bolt face,lugs, but the remainder in the middle. Rear and handle already painted. Mine is stainless and I think if I paint it it will scratch off into the action. I say this cause the jewling is starting to wear off.

Bill: Thanks for your loads, I put them in the book I'm starting for the new rifle. Also prayers continuing to be said, and for the rest of you marrons too. HAAH I think we all need 'em in one way or another. I know I do. Without 'em, I'd been dead or crazy long ago. Now that I mention it, I probably still am the latter, and in my profession you never know when you'll be the former. It's not called the worlds most deadly profession for nuttin.

Jeff Cooepr
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 07:00:25 (ZULU)

Jeff...

I did teflon on my bolts and cooked them in the oven - and it's still there (after all these years ;).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 13:59:24 (ZULU)

Jeff: When I paint my rifles, I paing the bolt as well. No sense in hving something shiny in the middle of all that camo. It hasn't seemd to hurt anything. The only time I have a problem with the paint coming off is when I clean it, the solvent takes it off.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 14:38:21 (ZULU)

Thanks guys, I wasn't sure. I wasw going to try to cold blue it if not paint. It's shiny jeweled, but the jewelling is wearing off "slowly being smoothed out by operation". I'll Leave the bolt face and lugs along with engagemant surfaces taped but the rest will get paint. I think it's going to look good.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 15:04:46 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt,

You don't need to apologize for anything. Thank you for your service.

Duman
Tuesday, November 6, 2007, at 15:41:30 (ZULU)

Charle S. Hunt,

<Wow. I guess I need to go smoke a Cuban.>

I hear the Montecristos are good this time of year. Actually, they're pretty damn good any time of the year.

If it weren't so late (and getting cold outside) I'd light one up in your honor.

Take care,

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 04:53:01 (ZULU)

Charles and Lito: Good and bad news. Found out that My 300RUM was a custom shop gun. I only gave $800 in like new condition with a new Zeiss scope on top. There weren't many made. Last year of the Sendero first year of the 300RUM. Basicly 1 year production plus the customs. Not bad as far as I'm concerned. Would like to know what it's really worth. Thats the good news. Bad, the 300RUM uses such a large bolt that there isn't much room in there. Mine was hand fitted and there isn't even room for a single light coat of paint. With just one coat it scrapes down the sides and scrapes the paint off. So I guess it's going to be a shiny jeweled bolt unless it can be blued, or darkened some other way. Other than that, in my opinion, the paint job went off pretty good for a first. Different from most but I like it and I think it will be good at breaking outline. It's got a lot of contrast. The four basic cammo colors with olive as the main but different than the usual blended pattern. Where do you guys go to post pictures for everyone to see?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, Good ole US of A!!! - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 06:15:53 (ZULU)

Jeff...

One of the prettiest bolts I ever saw was jeweled with a micro small bit, then blued - it was the epitome of beautiful understatement.

Just take the bolt to a 'smith and have it blued - you will love it.

A lotta guys go to photo bucket to post pictures.

You can Google "Photo hosting websites" and you will get a bunch.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 12:56:48 (ZULU)

Lito: That's about what I plan to maybe hte Jeweling will show through the blueing. Is that what yours did? Thanks for the photobucket advise. I was wondering about the site as I've seen it used in the past, but didn't know if it was private or something. I'll give it a try, and the photos should soon follow. I want comments cause this is definately a diffeent paint scheme. I've gotta go drop it off in the woods and fields. Hope I don't loose it but hope I do for a minute. Haha

Keep your heads down and powder dry. "Muzzle loader season here"

Jeff "not the Colonal" Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, tn, - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 13:20:10 (ZULU)

Jeff...

>" Lito: That's about what I plan to maybe the Jeweling will show through the bluing."<

It most definitely will.

Tell the smith NOT to polish off the jeweling.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 15:07:38 (ZULU)

All: Here's the links to the painted pictures. I still have a little touch up to do this afternoon, but tell me what you think so far.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Guns/300RUMLS.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Guns/300RUMRS.jpg

Im going to take Lito's advise and get the bolt blued.

Here's my RRA M4A3. They make a sweet shooting gun. Very Accurate for a short barreled AR.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Guns/AR15LS.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Guns/AR15RS.jpg

Thanks, Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 15:42:46 (ZULU)

Lake City Match: What kind of accuracy have you guys been getting out of the actual LCM ammo, not the reloads. Also Have you noticed much of a difference in brass manufactured from different years. Mine is from two different years. After using, I plan on sorting them according to weight, but was wondering about differences in years that might weigh the same. Any observations or suggestions?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 16:46:06 (ZULU)

Last questions for the day I think. Is anyone using the Leupold TMR reticle and what about thier illuminated reticles "good/bad". Also M1 vs. M3. I know they are diferent in that they adjust elevation and windage in different MOA increments. Anyone have problems with 1MOA adjustments. I know that at 1000yds 1 click is ten inches verses 2.5. Has that been a major problem for anyone. I am also considering the 4.5x14x50. I already have the 6.5x20x50 LR/T Mill-dot on my big gun, but wanted to go with the norm on the new .308. Do all Mark 4's have 30mm tubes, or just the "Long Ranges". Feed back please, pros and cons on all.

Thanks, Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 17:45:49 (ZULU)

Jeff,

The TM2 is a little busy when shooting movers but other than that I do like it for miling. Don't worry about the MOA adjustments you will love them if you shoot matches or hunt.

Pat
Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 20:05:22 (ZULU)

Supplemental to earlier thread

DPMS sells an AR15 (M16) magwell dust cap:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=5122&cat=1508

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, November 7, 2007, at 23:40:12 (ZULU)

An alternative in many Leupold scopes is the M2 knob, which is half-MOA clicks.

Also, be aware that Leupold M1 scopes, at least all those I've tested to date, are actually quarter-INCH per hundred yards, and not quarter MOA. The difference, with a .308 at 1000 yards, is 2 MOA - which is 20 inches of elevation error.

As long as you know that, they're fine.

My preference is for scopes which adjust in the same system as the reticle is graduated in, i.e., 0.1 milliradian clicks for scopes with mil reticles, and MOA adjustments, whether whole or fractional, for scopes with MOA reticles.

But, that's because I do a lot of work with holdovers and holdunders - I never touch the scope dial inside 700 yards - so that preference won't apply to everyone. Your mileage may, therefore, vary.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 00:21:37 (ZULU)

Pat & Lindy: Thanks. I'm not up on the hole Mil deal. I've got to learn to use the darn thing since I've got it, and am getting another. Reading Kent's stuff now and planning on Mil-dot master. Right now I just lase the target and dial it in, in inches/MOA I've got the cheat for my come-ups on the stock. Just to make sure I've got it strait, The M2 & 3's adjust in Mils and MOA of Mils not 1/4in @100 and MOA of 1/4 in. All the cataloges advertises that they adjust in 1/4MOA for the M1, 1/2MOA for the M2, and 1MOA for the M3, at least on the elevation, and don't refer to millidrans. Is thier information misleading/incorrect? Don't take me wrong, I'm asking this honestly (about MidwayUSA and other advertisements) cause even catalogues make mistakes. SO CONFUSING! And I don't want to buy the wrong scope at over $1000 new starting price. Already got a $1200 scope that I haven't learned to use the reticle in yet. I guess I'm a little lazy, but I can use a laser and convert MOA from 1/4in increments for hunting. Last year a buddy of mine that's ex Delta and now flys cropdusters ran through all the millidran stuff in about 20 minutes and it went in 1 ear, bounced around and went right out the other. I got even and explained for 20 minutes, how the differential corrrection works on our GPS's and keeps us in the field within 1ft of error on our swaths. Now I wish I had listened better and sat him down to teach me. He's in Montana now & is actually a pretty good teacher if the student is in the mood to learn. He deffinately knew his measurement stuff, and probably learned everything I told him about agricultural GPS systems too. One of those people that soaks everything up like a sponge, and retains information forever. That reminds me, I need to give him a call!

Jeff Cooepr
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 01:47:50 (ZULU)

Jeff sent me an email to clear up the confusion. In case anyone else was confused, here is my reply to him:

Leupold, for all practical purposes, does not make scopes which adjust in fractions of a milliradian. Their custom shop will do it - badly. I don't advise that.

BTW, the most common such adjustment is 0.1 milliradian, which amounts to 0.36 inches at 100 yards. People usually use the shorthand of mil for a milliradian, and one mil at 100 yards is 3.6 inches.

The M2 and M3 Leupolds adjust in MOA, the M2 in 1/2 MOA clicks, and the M3 in 1 MOA clicks, except for the windage on the M3, which is in 1/2 MOA clicks.

You can get scopes from Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce, and U.S. Optics which adjust in 0.1 mil clicks, and you'd want them with mil-based reticles.

You can get MOA reticles from Nightforce and U.S. Optics, and you'd probably want those to adjust in MOA or a fraction thereof.

To me, it makes sense to have the scope adjustments in the same system as the reticle is graduated in. That way, there is no need to make conversions between MOA and mils.

The scope I favor is a S&B 4-16X50 with a Premier Gen II mildot reticle, with adjustments in 0.1 mil clicks. It's the same scope the U.S. Marine Corps uses, except that they chose a power range of 3-12.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 03:21:29 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Thanks for all the info and tips on mag well covers/plugs. I've passed them on.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 03:26:12 (ZULU)

Just checking in. See its bash cops time. Back to my hole. Prefer talk of shooting to politics and bashing of cops. Too bad love this place for the folks who have honor and knowledge.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 14:58:28 (ZULU)

Just gotta pass this one on...

Bravo lent me his copy of "Unintended Consequences" a while back and I more than loved it... and now the little booger wants it back!! :((

But I want to read it AGAIN. This morning, I got a 25% off coupon from B&N for one book.

So I called the local B&N and I get this charming lady on the phone who is sweet and delicious sounding.

So I ask her if she has "Unintended Consequences" in stock.

So she says she'll check.

I wait about two minutes, and she comes back on the phone, and in a totally different voice (like a bull dyke clearing a biker's bar), she says, "Is that the one by JOHN ROSS", and I say , "Yes", and she says, "We don't have it!"

Man... I know what it feels like to be a black guy in 1950's Mississippi!

:(((

I'll order it from Amazon :)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 15:21:54 (ZULU)

Gents,

Jeff, one of my bolts is done in Robar NP-3 and the other in Birdsong's "Black-T". I was after rust/corrosion proof finishes. I like both.

'Lito's right. Blueing the bolt is probably the best option.

JC, Lindy, and all. All the come ups on my .308 were figured from actual shooting. Then I had that data transfered to a set of Kenton Industries replacement turrets. There is more need to work with the mil-dot system. I know Rick B. uses a 500 yard zero and mil-dots. Lindy, are you saying you use a 700 yard zero? Can someone explain how that system works for you. I'm getting darn little trigger time and it might be fun to add something new to the bag of tricks.

Elk season begins Saturday. Perhaps I'll get lucky and get one this year. Would settle for a nice spike for some good eating.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 15:24:22 (ZULU)

Jeff UN-Colonel Cooper,

That's a nice RRA carbine. What is the going rate for one of those? Just ballpark, of course. MCMV (My Cost May Vary).

Lito,

I met a gal awhile back, we hit it off pretty well. Then she said something negative about "card-carrying NRA members". I showed her my NRA card, and never saw her again. Heheheheheee.....

You can get it at Amazon, for ~$25, and free shipping:

http://www.amazon.com/Unintended-Consequences-John-Ross/dp/1888118040/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3961704-2124937?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194539760&sr=1-1

Duman
Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 16:37:21 (ZULU)

Wes: I shot a Horus reticle for several years, long enough to get reasonably proficient at holding for wind and elevation simultaneously using the reticle.

However, I developed an intense dislike for HorusVision, for reasons which I will not elaborate on in an open forum. Besides, their reticle is too expensive.

It also occurred to me that the need for fast multiple-target multiple-distance engagements was mostly inside 700 yards. And, having memorized my dope for the Horus so I could shoot fast, I noticed that I could shoot to beyond 600 yards using only holdovers using the 5 mils of reticle marks below the main crosshairs of a Gen II reticle.

I also noted that my dope changes very little at those ranges no matter what the temperature and barometric pressure are, even at significant altitudes.

That means my simple brain only has to remember a single number which doesn't change much if any with conditions, and not which direction to hold. Everything is a hold over.

Outside 700 yards, conversely, one frequently needs more precision in unusual conditions.

So, I developed a hybrid technique. Holdover for everything at 600 yards or less from a hundred yard zero with standard dope, using a Gen II FFP reticle at whatever magnification is appropriate to the range.

At distances greater than 600, dial elevation, using higher magnfications as needed for target visibility and precision, modifying the dope as necessary for atmospheric changes, using a ballistic program - I have the one developed with input from Master Rick among other programs - or tables for different conditions.

For people who shoot only on one-way KD ranges laying flat on the ground during daylight, with plenty of time to dial whatever elevation is appropriate, it's a technique which isn't needed.

It's a technique for gunfighting with a precision rifle. Teaching that is the business I'm in - one of them, anyway.

And with a rifle equipped with a AN/PVS-22, or, better, an AN/PVS-26, it's the shit-hot technique for shooting at night - you never have to adjust the scope. See it, shoot it.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 17:16:11 (ZULU)

I shot a boatload of sniper rifles where the bolt was parked and done in Duracoat. I saw no operational or accuracy issues. I think the protection is worth it.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 17:19:02 (ZULU)

Duman, here is the link

http://www.hdps.org/htm/2-1-1.htm

They are a strange bunch of foreigners, but they were great to deal with. My rifle is down the page some. I tried to call the guy that I delt with on his personal line and it was disconnected. So I'm not sure what's up there. His name was Ed Montana. My FFL buddy that received the rifle for me had a great laugh about him being foreign and called him Tony Montana while doing his best Al Pachino/Scar Face impression. We figure that they are probably political refugees from Israel or some where and had thier names changed when they became citizens. I don't remember how much I paid for it but it wasn't the current advertised price. It is a rock solid gun now. If you get one, go through it and tighten everything. Due to being pulled apart and coated almost everything was left loose when put back together. I actually had the EOTech mounted on the right side of the hand guard and a 3x9x40 Nikon on top for a while for ISPC competition. The hand guard is solid enough to hold the EOTech on aim and stay accurate. I would use the scope for long shots, and then rotate the gun sideways for the fast close up shots. It's different, but it works. I know this is probably too much information, but it was my first internet purchase and it's one of my favorite guns, so I had to tell the story.

Have any of you had any experience with a company called "The Exchange" on gunsamerica? I wrote the guy a letter about wanting to do a swap, and the guy wrote me back about a week later badmouthing my guns that I wanted to swap. How do these people do any business on the internet, taking so long to reply, and then talking bad about others property. The whole internet deal is about fast information exchange and American's need for instant gratification, or at least it is to me. Anyway, I hope he's not friends with anyone here, cause I let him have it. If he is, I apologize to you, but not to your friend. You guys have always been great in helping me, and feeding my need for instant gratification, with quick and intelligent responses. Even when you were "sniping" back at me, as it's been called, it was informative to say the least, if not helpful. I'm one of those people that has a need to learn as much as possible about anything I'm involved in. I want to know everything possible, from all angles or perspectives. Right, wrong, or indifferent, if I know everything possible about a subject, it's easier for me to make up my mind on how I want to look at something or decide on something. I like to be knowledgeable enough about things to argue any side of it, even if it's the wrong side. SunTzu's know more about your enemy than he knows about himself is a rule that I think applies to everything in life, not just your enemies. In sniping, know where your target is headed even if it doesn't. I had to throw that refrence in so yall wouldn't "snipe" me for the off subject commentary.

Thanks Guys for everything, from all sides.

Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 18:50:18 (ZULU)

Duman...

>"Lito,

I met a gal awhile back, we hit it off pretty well. Then she said something negative about "card-carrying NRA members". I showed her my NRA card, and never saw her again. Heheheheheee....."<

HA!, Double HA!!

I went on a date with some cutie I met down at the shore. I use to crew on an ocean going sail boat (A BIG BOAT, WITH BIG SAILS!!!).

This hunny was thrilled with me, and we went out to have a drink.

So we were eating, and drinking, and chatting, and she said something negative about people with guns.

So I mentioned that not all people that own guns are bad - some are real nice... and I was one of the nice ones.

So (getting caught in her shit), she says, "I don't mean people like YOU, I mean those stupid jerks that own a lot of guns, and belong to the NRA.

So (in my calmest voice) I said, "I own over 100 guns, and have been a life member of the NRA since 1965... good night."

I left her with the check ;)))

HA! (Pat would be proud ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 8, 2007, at 21:33:23 (ZULU)

'Lito,

That cracked me up! I would've had to bag her, first.

MikeMiller,

Nobody's bagging on cops. Just those that are "above the law" or feel entitled to be a dick.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 04:51:09 (ZULU)

Greetings,

Girls and guns: My wife was less than enthsiastic about guns when we met and started dating over a decade ago. But once she got to know me, met my gun toting friends, went shooting a couple of times,

went to some firearms training, attended a few "friends of the NRA" banquets with me, got her own revolver etc, etc, she is quite comfortable amongst the "gun culture". Granted, there are some that will never make the leap. The trick is to to do the sorting at the right time.

You know you got them when she gets you the Dillion reloaidng calender for a stocking stuffer and surprises you with a box of the right caliber/preferred bullet weight premium hunting ammunition!

Pat II
Friday, November 9, 2007, at 05:17:35 (ZULU)

Gents,

'Lito, last chat with Bravo he indicated someone was "holding his copy of Uninteded Consequences hostage". Guess now I know who. Just finished the second re-read of my copy and I know better than to loan it out! Have had similar reactions from book store folks when I was looking for a copy. You'ld have thought I was asking for the "Anarchist's Cookbook".

Lindy, thanks for the info on how you work your hold over system. Something to try this winter after the hunting season. The Horus Vision Reticle is to darn busy for me. Tried one and it gave me a headache. My preference is an uncluttered scope reticle and I find the Gen 1 USMC pattern mil-dot reticle satisfactory for my uses. May upgrade to Gen 2 one of these days...

Just in from the garage getting my gear ready for Saturday's Elk Opener. DAMN, those 275 grain Hornady RN's look good in that .35 Whelan Improved case. Suspect that at 2,500 FPS they should take care of business, if I get a shot.

Nickel Cases: Picked up some Whelan cases when I built the rifle and 100 were nickel. After fireforming I noted that I was getting about 1/2 the case life of conventional brass cases. Not to mention the nickel on the case neck was flaking after a couple uses. Anyone else experience this. All my other cases are brass only.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 05:22:03 (ZULU)

'Lito,

You had her ready and waiting man. You should have hit it, before you quit it.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. bay area, CA, - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 06:23:14 (ZULU)

My experiences with nickel is that they tend to crack at the neck much sooner than brass, some also crack along the length of the case, but this was usually only when I had to size for several rifles, one of which was tightly chambered and said cases were fired in one of the looser rifles, leading to mucho case expansion.

My 357 nickel cases don't last as long as the brass ones, spliting at the case mouth. Still, I average 6-8 reloads from them, which is plenty considering I roll crimp them fairly hard for use with slow powders. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 08:11:33 (ZULU)

Wes,

No experience with nickel cases in a rifle, but, in my revolvers, every time I reload them, there's a handfull that split. They are notorious for splitting and cracking.

Let us know how those 275 gr. bullets work. At 2500 fps, that's gotta be about like getting nailed with the bale spike on a truck doing 70! Hell, take a buddy with a camera along to get the mid-air shots before the Elk land, LOL.

Have you tried the "squeeze me" elk calls? Like a hoochie mama, only better. If you get one, make sure you get the old model, with the rubber ball on the end. The newer ones, while good, sound kinda tinny with the hard plastic end.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 08:53:38 (ZULU)

Travis an' MarcS, on "Baggin' her"...

Well, I gotta fess up. I was so pissed at her original remark about "All the the sickos with guns" that are responsible for all the killings, rapes, child molesting, cancer, bubonic plague, starving children, Ebola, and the ozone hole over the south pole, that I probably couldn't get a stiff weenie with the bitch.

I don't have the words to express how much abject contempt I have for anti-gun bitches that "know it all" about gun people.

In hindsight, I think the $90 dinner and bar tab was better revenge, cuz she was left sitting there, embarrassed... and then had to find a way home, cuz her girl friend had already left with the car to go back to New Yawk City (where the fuck else ;)

... and I was nailin' somebody else at the time, anyway.

OK, Wesley. I can take a hint - I'll get the book back to Bravo this weekend. It is one of the best books I have ever read.

;))

I have a couple hundred nickeled 308 cases, that started out 308, lived as 7mm-08 for a few years, and then went back to 308 for another riffle... and they are still good.

I "think" that I read that the the nickeling process can harden brass if it's not done right, or if they are not annealed after, or something like that - I have annealed that set of nickeled brass once (when going back to 308)... no splits and no flakes.

I use nickeled brass sometimes to know which rifle the stuff belongs to. I have it in .223 and 308, and some pistol calibers.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 11:20:46 (ZULU)

Gooooooooood Mooooooooooorrniiiin Sniper Country!!!!!!!!!

Nickle plated cases are just that, plated. If you fire formed them to another cartridge you streched the brass but nickle doesn't strech as easy. Therefore it peals, and 'lito was on the money about plating and hardening of brass. I've got some that I've reloaded about 5 times for my 300RUM that are fine but I'm only necksizing them. All of the nickel is gone from the necks. I used to have a lot of my handgun cases crack though, especially splitting at the mouth. We shot so many back then that we didn't keep round counts on them. We just threw them away when we saw damage. I was shooting 210 rounds a day through my ISPC gun. 10 Mags @ 21 rounds each, every day religiously.

http://www.myexcusedabsence.com/

You really can get everything on the internet. Now I just want a job that accepts doctor excuses. Last time I got sick during flying season I wnet straight to the doctor and was back in 2 hours at work. And pissed that while gone I missed making probably $450-500 in pay. If I had, had a doctors excuse maybe my partner would have felt sorry for me and given it to me out of his pocket. Instead he handed me a stack of corridinates and yelled over the noise of my plane, which he had cranked when I told him I was on my way back, "get back to work, we're both loosing money". Maybe the dogs I have in training would have said "it's OK that you didn't feed us" you had an excuse from the doctor. Haha, Whatever.

I want to be a "Desk Jocky" for a while. You know, the kind that no one misses when they're gone for a week. ha ha. Whatever! I wouldn't swap my job for any that comes to mind, 'cept for maybe a winter run with Triple Canopy. Anyone have any connections there? I didn't have enough "doccumented full-time" experience for Blackwater. Guess I ought to be glad now, cause that's sure where I wanted to spend this winter. We've had it really bad because of the drought here in the south. It's been the worst flying season since I started in '92. Why did I pick this year to buy a house and land, and pay for it in cash to save on the interest cash. Payments sure sound nice if I'd left about $20,000 in the bank to make them with and get through the winter. I feel like one of those old women on a fixed social security income. 1K on the first and 15th of each month left from what I made this flying season sure don't streach very far. I guess I should be thankful for that though.

I'm thinking of taking up truck driving in the off season. Sounds like fun running all over the country and seeing the sights that I've never seen. My flying service partner has an extra OTR truck he'll let me use, so I can work when I want, and pick my loads. Maybe I can pick them to coinside with matches and get to meet some of you guys in my travels. If anyone's ever around my neck of the woods, look me up and stop by. We'll go shoot a few rounds or something. I've got a range/airplane runway to 1000yds or more just 30 minutes away form the house that I have complete controll over.

Wife and guns: she is terrified of even touching them. It's one of those irrational fears, and she knows it. Like I've said before "only moves the one on the bedside table to dust under it". But, She doesn't have anything aginst them, or me having and shooting them, and the daughter that I have previously refered to, isn't actually mine, although I treat her as though she is. She is the wife's from a previous marrige. The wife doesn't mind if I let her shoot the guns, train her about the guns and hunting, or anything else gun related for that matter. She knows it's important for the daughter to understand them, and be able to safely handle/use them if she's going to grow up with one in every corner of the house. I like it that way. Also, if my wife actually liked shooting I'd cost me soo much more in ammunition. I might miss out on some shooting time of my own.

Have a good day everyone, and be safe. No stupid questions for me today, but I'd still appreciate more responses for the ones I previously posted.

Jeff UN-Colonel Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN , These great US of A - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 13:50:47 (ZULU)

Jeff (the UN-Colonel),

What part of TN is Gadsen in? Whatya flying? I used to fly for a living too. That all ended after 9-11-01. Flew light planes for about five or six years. Flew cargo on B727s and DC8s from the mid 80s til 2001. I am a police officer now a days. In my fifth year now in this new and final career. We had TASER training today. Pretty interesting stuff. Got the night off tonight, and back to work tomorrow night.

Bill Bledsoe

Bill Bledsoe
Northern, Kentucky, USA - Friday, November 9, 2007, at 23:18:59 (ZULU)

Gents,

Travis, that 275 gr .358 bullet kills...out of both ends. Think I misplaced the wheels and lanyard somewhere in the garage...;-)

The nickel brass is going to go away when it gives up the ghost. Have seen ALL the problems described by you folks. Neck spliting, nickel flaking/wearing of the necks, etc. Besides, I like the look of brass cases better.

'Lito, Unintened Consequences is probably one of the best novels I've ever read. John Ross was masterful in his research that supported the story line. One thing about it, you'll never look at government the same after reading.

More later. Have to pull my gear together.

To all Marines on the list, Happy Birthday Nov 10th. Thanks to all who have served this Veteran's Day. Would like to put in a plug for those who supported us while we were deployed. Thanks, it makes it all worth while.

Semper Fi

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 00:19:45 (ZULU)

Flying: Family gives me weird looks when I reply to THAT question, "Hell no, I ain't interested in flying..." It's easy to figure out if you been around heli's enough to shit an engine or tranny in flight. I kinda stopped after 9/11 too---although I think for differing reasons; I reverted back to an older skill-set:))

As I read thru the posts, it occured to me that between my wife and I--we can't seem to keep a job!

Her: LEO into photography into truck driving. I went from log weenie to SOCOM stuff to freelance mission observer for new doctrine. That last one was the stuff of dreams...

Jeff: I got saddled with enough "desk" in a few recent jobs prior to retirement---all i can say is "best wishes" bro. They drove me nutz. Or finished the job...at any rate, at some level of paygrade, the desk follows yer ass around close! I hated that.

Women and guns: Hurumph. I win:)) Wife's second date (before i got demoted to husband) was combat fishing on sheep creek. Not long later that year, she shows up with a 300WM asking if she can go shoot 'Bou with my buds and I. Figured she was a keeper. We recently took turns spotting for each other in BL adv. sniper one where I learned that she has better form in position shooting than I ever will. I've married well...indeed.

Unintend/ Consq: That copy Lito read had my finger prints on it:)) I recommend this book---if you know how to read, then read it. Whatya waiting for? For some reason, I think that there is an agent somewhere who googles that title now and then to see who says what and where! See what a book can do to your paranoia? Heheh. Actually, I DO believe that!

"abject contempt I have for anti-gun bitches that "know it all" about gun people"

Lito, come'on--these are enlightened liberals yer talking about! They be the folks who cornered the market on "Tolerance, acceptance and understanding without moral judgements." Trust me, I heard them say this is so just today on CNN.

Click my name for a read on the military's self-inflicted wound of investigating every damn bullet fired in war. Back in spring/ summer 2004, I was handling a few of these---and bitching about it here. I guess the "I want to make it better" goal I had can be summed up with those 15-6 investigations: I "made it better for the few who were targeted" by their commanders. Heheh. I may not have changed much--but I have those little positive outcomes:)) Oh...I was doing alledged murder charges...for straight legit shootings/ pure ass self defense. Ya'll would have to read a report (usually 12 pages less attachments and exihibits) to get an idea of how bad this stuff gets. I did a little over-kill (so to speak) on these to ensure that all arm-chair asshat lawyers would or could find any remote cause to re-open any of these cases. Shit, I did that on the very first one---and the CJSOTF CO liked that effort so much, i sorta inherited them all!

I get ranted-up on this stuff---cause the AARs pretty much covered the same fact-sets I came up with, less sworn testimony. In other words, I was running all over Iraq, taking rounds (and losing two rides)---for nuthin but Sanchez's chickenshit inability to trust his subordinate officers' written word. That pissed me off. Especially when it got hairy. I remember thinking at the time "Here Lies Joe, he died honorably while questioning the veracity of a battle hardened commander for the careerist pukes in Camp Victory..." We had all had a good laugh on that one, once clear of the shooting.

But yeah, it is that bad...and it hasn't changed much lately from what I am seeing.

I gotta get some sleep. I still have an unfilled tag.

Joe M
Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 02:20:17 (ZULU)

My wife is a graduate of a combat handgun course taught by an Aussie SAS trooper, and more than half the year we are resident on a 1500 yard shooting range. And she puts up with me.

If that's not a keeper, there ain't none such.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 03:07:41 (ZULU)

Bill Gadsden is in West Tennessee, about 15 minutes Northwest of Jackson, Tn by car. About 5 in an ag plane. This past year I logged around 700 hours in an AirTractor 301. Got about 8000 in Ag planes alone. I don't bother to log regular planes anymore, cause I've finally got enough time that I pretty much qualify to fly anything with 1 engine. Would like to get some big Type ratings though. Was gonna get a DC3 rating but got a job and had to leave before I finished. I took a plane and pay cut to come back to Tennessee. I was flying 502 Air Tractor in Arkansas till year before last. A guy I knew died of a heart attack and left his son the business I now work for. He doesn't fly and gave me a Cessna Ag Wagon to take to Arkansas last year and told me to put it to work and he would get rid of his pilot and put me in the 301 this year, which he did. We are buying a 510 Thrush this winter for next year. I wanted to come back to Tennessee cause I'm addicted to deer hunting and where I was in Arkansas there weren't any. So I told him I'd take the job if he bought me the turbine by next year and let me hunt his farm. Got 4 deer so far this year. Just got one this afternoon. So far he's been good at his word. I haven't told him I would have come even without the turbine Thrush, and when we get it my production will go up and so will pay. We get payed on a percentage of gross.

Joe I did the chopper thing for a year, spraying in Kansas without a roter rating. Decided I didn't like it caues when spraying you are always in the "dead mans curve". So I never bothered to get the rating. Besides, The FAA never comes to the field to do ramp checks, and I never went to airports. We had a Nurse Truck that followed me around. Flew a Hillar. Not too many trany problems, but it's still a continental engine stood up on end. Any time you stand an engine 90 degrees from the way it was designed to run you've got problems. By the way, I was kidding, there's no way you'll ever catch me behind a desk unless I put one in my deer stand to use for a rest.

We got grounded then un grounded then grounded and back again for a month after 9-11. I lost $20K for that month, but I can't complain cause a lot of people lost a lot more, and are still losing due to the aftermath.

Pat II it helps. I've had mil dots for the last 10 years just never bothered to learn to use them. I know that sounds rediculus. I'm starting to get it now though with everyones help.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 04:06:56 (ZULU)

Travis asked about a place for XD trigger work. This link was sent to me. I have no experience, yet, with this guy, but he looks promising. Thanks to the guy who sent it.

springerprecision.com

Lindy, have you actually looked through a PR Gen II XR reticle yet? I'm hoping it's as good in person as it is in a picture.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 04:15:11 (ZULU)

Tony: haven't looked through one in glass, yet.

It's an interesting reticle. However, the group deal on Sniper's Hide was only for a reticle swap in S&B scopes you already owned - for a premium price, like $400. So, you're paying an additional price over the price you already paid for a S&B.

At that price, for me, it's not interesting. Your mileage may vary.

I think a GAP reticle in an S&B would be a great reticle, too, if that were possible. Since it's a U.S.O. reticle, I expect it's not.

I do just fine with a Gen II. Until there's a better reticle at a reasonable price in an S&B scope, I'll hang with what I have.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 15:16:45 (ZULU)

Follow up on tranny problems in flight: Obviously, they did not come apart in flight;)) I'm still here! Both were chip lights, no burn off. Happened in a Huey and later, in a warrior. Pucker factor, cuz of all the time you have to think on it. In fact, my last flight at Bragg was that warrior tranny---the PIC discussed continuing the flight. We didn't. On inspection, one of the planetaries was fracturing along a cut. Lose a tranny--game over. At least on the engine failure, we still had some rotor. My first PL was a flight control malf; had all the forward cyclic we wanted--but none back. They found a screw under the mixing bell, but prior to that, the IP found his flashlight wedged behind his control arm:))

Four times. I was more afraid of being thought scared than I was sensible. I kept going back for more. But after 9/11, i did not fight too hard when other jobs away from the cockpit came calling.

I think it may be saying something that i would rather be tooling around a-stan or Iraq in up-armors (or sedans-heheh) than flying!

Spinning a wing is just plain unsafe.

Morning hunt: Made a scent trail and used a doe bleet call. About an hour into it, a buck came snorting up the woodline. It sounded like a hog, snorting away. Hell---it WAS a hog! Ferral pig, maybe 300 pounds worth! I have heard of these in the county---and there it is. Never had a shot as the pig wasn't on the scent that woulda put him in a position to get shot. I think that black and tan SOB ran off the deer, too. That, or the winds did us in after sun-up when they shifted to the east. easterlies aren't common, and i kinda plan for common winds. Oh well.

I called DNR, and they have an APB out on these pigs---shoot on sight, no paperwork or fees to worry about. I suppose they are a bigger problem than I thought.

Next up: late afternoon overwatch. My nephew is a patient little cuss. Heheh, he'd still be sitting out there if i hadn't froze my ass off.

Joe M
Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 15:25:53 (ZULU)

Looks like this shooting site has turned into an aviation site. That’s okay as my wife swears guns and flying go together. I was a professional (flight instructor, crop duster, corporate) pilot from 1957 until 1994. Really enjoyed my flights to South Africa. Even managed to set up a 10 day hunt there. Still enjoy flying

HDR
OK, - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 15:29:52 (ZULU)

Question on old Trapdoors. I have been looking to add one to my collection. It would be the oldest US piece I have and before my 98 Krag.

I have found a site that sells them for folks and is dedicated to the 45-70 Springfield. http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/classified.html

He seems straight up as I have spoke to him a few times through e-mail. Has anybody done any business with him? Just wondering.

Happy Birthday Marines and a great Veterans Day to all who have served.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 16:19:55 (ZULU)

Anyone know of any good long distance ranges in the Central Florida? Looks like I may end up relocating to the Tampa Bay area. Doing recon early. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Str8shot

Str8shot
south central, MI, USA - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 22:06:33 (ZULU)

Str8shot,

e-mail out to ya

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, November 10, 2007, at 22:38:23 (ZULU)

I tryed to order a copy if UC at B&N last month, and was told it was out of print. Saw John Ross a couple of days later on the outdoor channel shooting a .750 Gibbs or some such... and he didn't mention it.

My wife bought me the Rock Chucker kit last month for my B-day. I have 4 reloading manuals, and two days ago a box of 155 scenar's showed up. Still waiting on dies and shell holders. I've been puting-off starting to reload for 30 years cause I new once I started I'd be hooked ; )

Happy VD..... um, I uh mean Veterans Day ; )

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 02:40:54 (ZULU)

Joe Feral hogs are shoot on sight here in TN also. They are a cancer of the woods. They tear up everything, eat up whatevers left and you're probably right about them running off the deer. I can't count how many I've killed. You wouldn't believe what they can do to a wheat field. When I was a kid we used to bolt lawn chairs to the tops of combines when cutting wheat. We'd ride on top with '06s' and head strait to the back of the field when we started on them. Probably killed over a hundred that way. Not very sporting but they literally rooted up acres of wheat. Probably lost 50 acres a year to the hogs.

Last whirrly bird I flew was a little bell a couple years ago. Test flew it to check the spray system for the owner. He didn't fly choppers but had that one for a government contract he had. It checked out fine. The next day his brand new pilot showed up from Fla and as he took off on his first ride the tranny exploded and took out the gas tank, which in turn went all over the hot engine and came down in a ball of flames. Luckily he had only gotten about 5 feet of the ground when it happened. Came down sideways roter exploded and he jumped out and ran as the burning hulk flopped around for what seemed like eternity. CRAZY!!!

Flew 502 Air Tractor with a PT6-34 for couple hundred hours with the chip light on 3 years ago. The alternative was a radial 450 Ag Cat. I just couldn't give up the airconditioner in the 502.

HDR '57-94 How much dusting time in Stearmans have you got? Maybe some cut back cub time also. Just kidding. I've got a couple hundred in a Bull Stearman, but it wasn't a duster. Ever heard of Dick Reade from Mid-Continent. He was a WWII P38 pilot that dusted from then till about 10 years ago. I eat lunch with him 2 or 3 times a year. Been trying to talk him into letting me in his T6 but that hasn't happened. Now he has gotten so old his insurance won't let anyone ride with him that doesn't have 1500 hrs in a T6 and could be covered on his policy. I'm about 1480 short.

Now to guns. Got the Win M70 HV today. Got it home at dark, and spent an hour cleaning and putting the scope on. Went out and shot 10 rounds of LCM 170. 3/4 at 100 with a flash light lighting the target. I love to shoot that way. Complete darkness except for the target. No distractions. Only problem is I've got Burris bases and Leupold rings on it, the only thing I had laying around. Gotta change them as soon as the gun shop opens Tuesday. I'll get badger as soon as I'm sure the bridge isn't gonna need machining down. Elevation's all the way up except for 2 clicks and it's still 3 inches low. Gotta be the different ring/base combination, at least I hope so. But groups are great so I'm happy about how it shoots and I haven't even started loading for it yet. I'm sure they will shrink even more. Will do trigger tomorrow and bed as soon as my compound comes in from MidwayUSA.

4i's I hate to hear that about the book. After hearing so much about it I was going to go get a copy. And you're right about being hooked. My wife says if I could I'd live in the shop and sleep om the reloading bench. I've got a 10x20 wall almost wall papered with 8 1/2 x 11 targets.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 04:55:09 (ZULU)

All Hell has broken loose at the house. The shit has hit the fan. Wife says she won't let me go to A-stan of Iraq. Too dangerous!!! I figure there are 50,000 troops in the sand box for a year. In the last year there have been 1086 confirmed deaths. Thats approximately 1 in 50. In Arkansas there are about 100 crop dusters, probably way less. Last year 7 of them died and that was a good year. In 2006 there were 11. Not to slight all the great service men and women that serve our great country, and give thier lives to protect our rights and freedoms but I can't see how 1 in 50 is more dangerous than 3.5 in 50, or 1 in 10 for 2006. And the money if you are contracting is about the same as cropdusting. I would imagine the contractor rate of death is even less cause they are just guarding convoys and stuff. Don't take me wrong guys it's just that my wife, thats so good about my flying job, has gone nuts about me want a contracting job for the winter. She wants me to drive a big truck and stay here and be safe. She'll cool down soon though. Nothing to worry about.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 06:00:25 (ZULU)

4i's and Jeff Cooper,

Try Amazon.com. They have UC in hardcover for $25 plus change.

Jeff - You're not that far from Memphis. One o' these days we need to visit.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 06:09:12 (ZULU)

What would be the best way to go about becoming a chopper pilot? I live in Wichita, so there are plenty of schools, I guess, but I don't know if they're all run by dumbasses or not.

Also, what kinda qualifications would I need to get a job flying?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 06:58:11 (ZULU)

Gents,

If you want a copy of UC you might want to try:

http://www.john-ross.net/

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 07:15:25 (ZULU)

Read this. Click my name.

Travis Morgan
Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 09:08:14 (ZULU)

snopes on "collapse of the United States" article:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 13:52:40 (ZULU)

Jeff Cooper: I only dusted two seasons in a Stearman with a P&W 450 engine. GI Bill paid for my Commercial and Flight Instructor, but I needed money to pay for Instrument and Multi engine. Had just got married and money made instructing just made ends meet. I never heard of Dick Reade

HDR
OK, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 14:54:21 (ZULU)

To All Mathamiticians. The height from the receiver to the bottom of my scope at the front ring is .485 inches. The height at the rear is .618 inches from receiver to bottom of scope Both measuerments taken at the ring. There are 3.348 inches between the rings. My question is, how much does the scope need to be raised at the rear ring to equal 60 inches at 100 yards. As stated in previous post I'm hitting 3 inches low at 100 with only 1/2 inch of adjustment left. A 20 MOA taper isn't going to get it. I think I'm going to shim the rear with a piece of aluminum from a drink can for right now but I'm headed to the gun show in a few hours and taking the gun and caliper with me to do some checking, maybe laike I mentioned earlier. I'll get the good bases next spring after I start flying and get off the fixed budget, but was curious if anyone here was up on thier geometry enough to give me amathmatical answer to the base/ring question for now.

JC thanks I'll get on Amazon this afternoon. And, my personal shooting range is 7 miles off I40 at exit 42. Do you ever go out to MSSA and shoot? I was a member there for a while but they were so restrictive about using the 600yd range that it wasn't worth the hassle. When I quit shooting ISPC, I let my membership go. We'll have to get together and shoot or something some time. I get to Memphis about once or twice a month. Just moved from the

Whitten/Macon road area this spring. I've lived in and out of Memphis for the last 20 years. I love it in the country and am so happy to finally get a house to stay permanently out in the country. I shoot any time I'm ready day or night and only have to step out the back door to get to my 100 yd range.

HDR the Stearman are a blast to fly. They do everything SLOW. but they are great fun in slow motion, and with the 450 they will do anything you want to do, just slowly. I haven't got an instrument or multi yet. Will probably get both next winter. I've never needed them for crop dusting, but my new boss has people planes that I can use any time I want for free, so it's time to get the ratings and take my family in style on vacations. A cessna 185 is a great plane to fly with family but a Barron is a lot nicer and all I pay for is fuel so why not get my liscenses.

Travis maybe the other pilots can give you an answer but getting in to crop dusting is all but impossible now days due to insurance requirements, and will cost you about $25,000 and take 4 months at the school in Georga. Getting your ratings for choppers is even more expensive. WAY more. I couldn't tell you where to start. I learned in the field with chopper duster pilots for free but that doesn't happen anymore since 9-11. I haven't got the ratings either, just flew without and was careful not to get caught. figured if I ever went down I'd be dead so whaat would it matter then. They gonna send my body to prison? Haha All I've ever wanted to do was crop dust, so I got the minimum I could to get to do that. The ONLY reason I'll add other ratings is for the fun of flying the bigger planes, and to take my family on vacations. The only other thing, is if I go to Columbia and fly for the DEA drug erradication program. They want you to have all the ratings to do that and speak spanish also.

Later guys, getting reasy for the gun show. If anyone figures out the math quiz give me a shot quick cause I'll be looking at equipment at the show. Also, any requests send me a e-mail with phone number. I'll look for them your items while there and call you if I see them. I can buy and ship to you if you're sure you want something.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 16:25:25 (ZULU)

Jeff: if you're planning to put the shim under the rear of the base, what's the length of the base?

Another good source of shim material is to take apart a feeler gauge.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 16:46:30 (ZULU)

Ha! Wife preempted my hunting by stealing my new ghillie and going after turkey while I was making the necessary coffee! All's fair, i guess. I figured she deserves it since she works and I don't. She passed up on a shot she could have made (#4 shot carries better than the 7 she used last year)--but she needs to pattern that combo before she tries it. Which she is doing right now:))

Yesterday, I laid a crow to rest at 297 yards in a 16mph cross wind. Okay, he gave me a follow up that normally you do not get with crows:)) And, it was a lucky ass shot. The usual 168 BHs out of the old SPR.

While the set up was still on the ground (mat, LRF, gun, ammo)---that large buck walked across the field sniffin'. Fortunately, he was dumber than i was--I did nothing. But, as he hit a marshy edge--he kicked up a yote. By the time i got down in position, there was no shot. That was weird--a buck and a yote within 125 yards, and we were running a circular saw at the time!

All that carrying/ placing/ set ups stuff made me all the more intent to get a handier 308 to share the target loads with.

I stumbled across a .308 Howa 1500 in a green pillar bed Hogue stock. They have a combo pack with a el-cheapo appearing scope (a 3-10x42 Nikko-Stirling Nighteater, whatever that is) for under $500, and the rifle alone is $399 at this shop, NIB. The owner mentioned a local department bought a few packaged deals for tactical use. The rural sheriffs do not have the funds for better stuff, and this choice may mean something I am unfamiliar with. I also know that Wes likes these actions---ain't sure about what Sir Wes thinks of the whole rifles. Another point I heard is that the Howa 1500 action is dimensionally identical to rem 700s for scope bases.

I also learned that enough M84 longmaster owners are disappointed with accuracy to say "not worth the expense." That price giving you well over 1 MOA, as in 1.5 to 2.5 MOA with factory match loads; well, no thanks.

So, anyone shoot Howas? My standard for a walking .308 will be ~3/4 MOA accuracy with either 168s or 175s, hand loaded to suit. Is a stock Howa 1500 with a little trigger adjustment in this league? Do they take Rem 700 bases without fuss?

I am also turning my 223 stealth into a night stalker...I have a weaver one piece that fits this action. Will it handle moderate use with a 3.5lb night site on it? Or should i get something better made?

Joe M
Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 18:18:36 (ZULU)

Jeff:

An elegant answer for vertical offset it to use the Burris Pos-Align rings. Plastic inserts in various offset are available, and gimble inside the ring which minimizes scope tube stress. Also have related benfit that you can easily offset for windage at the same time, which permits getting a good mechanical windage zero. Minimizes ring marks too, a good thing.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1730&title=SIGNATURE+RINGS

'Lito gives them a thumbs up too :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 18:23:15 (ZULU)

Joe:

The Howas are well-respected. You ask a good accuracy question, but it's primarily related to the quality of the factory barrel, not the action.

On mounts, Cabelas chart says the Interarms Howa 1500 has the same spacing as a Rem 700. That may be a long action.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/purchase/products-found.jsp?_requestid=40519

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 18:38:37 (ZULU)

Lindy it's a two iece base and is 1.2 exactly. Didn't think of feeler guage but that would be perfect. I may have to lap the rings a bit after shimming. After hunting season I'm gonna check to see if the action is within specs. If it's not I'll have some taken off the top of the front. After that I'll get the Leup Mark4 or Badger 20MOA tapered base if they make it for a Winchester. Can't remember seeing one but I haven't looked for one yet either. I've just gottta wait till I get money rolling in next year. For now My daughter will be hunting with it and me just target practicing, so it'll be OK till then with a shim in back. I'll take a look at Rods suggestion too, I'm just a little leary of ring inserts for some irrational reason.

Joe Kimber gives a guarentee so they ought to back it. I've never had problems with them not fixing things, especially for the ammount of money they charge. But, if you're looking for a toss around the truck gun the Howa's price sounds right. I've got a NEF for that type of gun. If it gets banged around I'm not gonna cry

Later guys,

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 19:11:45 (ZULU)

Jeff:

The inserts are especially good for 2-piece bases.

If you shim just one end of a two-piece base, it puts a lot of stress on the tube unless lapped.

The inserts avoids the requirement for lapping, and tend to be less expensive and easier to acquire than a sloped base too.

Give the Pos-aligns a serious look, it's a good system.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 20:20:48 (ZULU)

Jeff: for the reasons Rod noted, I wouldn't try to shim a 2-piece base. I don't like lapping rings.

Badger does make bases for Winchester short actions - I have them on both of my Model 70 HBVs. Brownell's normally stocks them.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 20:46:35 (ZULU)

Jeff C:

I shoot at MSSA at least once a week. On the NEW 600 range BTW. It's far less restrictive than it used to be. The old 600 yd range has been partially taken over by Sporting Clays and all that's left is a 200 yd range. The new 600 yd. range is at the far west end of MSSA and is oriented North-South so there's no more shooting into the afternoon sun. Some of us retired old farts and some other guys that can get off go out every Monday morning and shoot. Gets us away from the formality of an organized match. It's mostly F-Class, but a few benchrest shooters show up from time to time. We usually gather at the club house between 0830 and 0900, go shoot for an hour or so, and then back to the club house for the second half of the bull session. So if you're down this way on a Monday morning come on out and say hello. Hope you can make it out.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 22:08:23 (ZULU)

Jeff: Kimber can back them all they want; I'll stick with their pistols. If i want to send a gun out straight away, it'll be a 700ADL to George's shop. I can't see rolling the dice with a high-end rifle, knowing that if i do get a lemon I can wait for the factory to make it right. At that price, I would gravitate to Sako (default option always). I'm looking to broaden my mind on new manufacturers---rather than just plopping myself right into my comfort zone. My bang-around guns don't get banged much at all: I mastered that trick in Iraq. I suspect that we are talking the same here: "Functionally cleaned when needed, scratching and scaping when unavoidable, but otherwise careful of the mechanics and function, and damned careful with the sights and devices."

My limited search on Howas shows much praise. In hand, this Howa in the hogue rubberstock seemed reasonable: though it reminded me of the savage synth-stock by being a little flimsy up front. It does maintain clearance off the barrel just laying there. I wouldn't stress it too much in any case, though Geoff M's stiffening trick might make it better with a sling.

I may just get this thing! I'll pass on the "kit gun" though...unless one of you chaps wants a "nighteater" scope for some reason.

Rod: I agree a good barrel goes a long way in accuracy---but I would insist that no barrel will shoot worth a damn if it isn't anchored well. Also agree wholehearted on the burris signature zee's. I have a set waiting on my next rifle to come home. Howa? Maybe....

Speaking of not shooting worth a damn: A LR308 (DPMS)--set up exactly like my .260 version will not group. The owner of that small gunshop was so impressed with what we can do with my .260, he went and got one in his all-time favorite caliber. He also got a lemmon. It would put two nearby just at or barely under and inch, then stick one off to 2" in random directions. It did it for him, me, on the bench bagged on both ends, on the bipod...with 168s, 175s MKs, 165 GKs, 168 amaxs, 147 FMJs (oh, terrible groups here)...only one ten shot group bested 1.6", only one five shot group bested 1.1"--and most ten-shot strings were at or over 2"! It started off as a break-in session (shoot clean etc)--and it mattered not if it was fouled or pristine. It just wouldn't tighten up. Badgers and a NF topped it...and then my proven NF and an older VXII tactical orphan scope, and ARMS rings just for giggles. Zeroing each time was a swag. Crown looked Ok under a magnifier...and it did have rifling in there too....it just wouldn't play like the cousin .260.

While I am pleased with my DPMS, I won't be praising them as a "must buy" as much. FWIW, the factory exchanged it--though he went with the short barrel carbine style this time. That 24" duece-and-a-half axle they call a target barrel is HEAVY! Caveat emptor...I did OK with the DPMS big AR--your mileage will vary it seems.

This session was part of my write-up on the DPMS .260--which is mostly a puff-piece til now. Now, I feel I should not be so praise-worthy on them. Statistically, two samples does not make a trend one way or the other. Maybe I should add this new data in and pass it on to reviews anyway?

Joe M
Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 22:08:45 (ZULU)

"That 24" duece-and-a-half axle they call a target barrel is HEAVY!"

LOL...First laugh of the day.Yeah they are.Got alot of satisfaction bloodin mine on a 50yrd runnin doe with an offhand shot.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi., USA - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 22:37:08 (ZULU)

Joe:

The Savage bolt guns are reputed to have good barrels out of the box for a factory gun. If you're looking for a reasonable dollars unit for hunting that is likely to have an acceptable accuracy barrel the Savage would be my suggestion today. You can also rebarrel yourself because of the way they are headspaced from the factory, so that opens up later options.

http://www.savagearms.com/centerfire_home.htm

For example, the 11F available in .308Win w/synthetic stock, blued and 22" 1/10 brl has sugg retail of $539, so "street" price would be somewhat lower. Comes drilled and tapped. They have packaged products, but I assume you would rather pick your own mount and optic.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 11, 2007, at 22:50:13 (ZULU)

Joe: both my Howas will shoot one-hole groups all day long, as long as I do my part. The factory stock came with some chintzy-assed pressure stud under the bbl at the forward sling swivel mount, I just ground it off and then free-floated and bedded the action in the factory stock. Haven't had anything but sweet shooting, since.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 01:14:45 (ZULU)

Good deal here. Win. .308 HBV..not mine, just passing it along.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=480700

KImbershooter
Disputanta, Va., USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 01:14:59 (ZULU)

Here we go: I'm going to take advise. Burris standard rings, and a .020 offset kit. That will get me .040 if the set is two .020 inserts. If not I'll get the kit and use the .020 and the .010 for .030 total. Here's where I'm not sure. I can get a 20 MOA base, or use the 2 piece bases that I already have and shim the rear. With the Burris rings shimming won't require lapping. I just need to know if .040/.030 in the rings plus the 20MOA base will get me the 50-60MOA that I need to be able to get the most elevation out of the scope. Does anyone know how much .040/.030 will get in MOA? Next summer I'm putting a Leupold LR of some type on it and Burris doesn't make the offset inserts for 30mm tubes. Great. "And I thought Mil-Dots were a confusing pain in the rear?!?!" At least the gun shoots good.

Rod thanks for the book. It's good so far. I may have to order it from Amazon though. Don't know if my eyes will take 780 pages of computer screen reading.

Gun Show: An absolute bust! I did have a guy offer me a grand for the Winchester. Probably should have taken it and bought a new Rem 5R, but I kinda like it for some reason. Maybe cause I know how it shoots.

That rifle mentioned in the post above mine is the same thing I've got. Not a bad deal if it shoots like mine and doesn't have the elevation problem I've got. Anyone recognize the base?

Bet you guys wish I'd find a chat room or something, good night for tonight.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 02:22:45 (ZULU)

For hunting use, there is one cheaper alternative even to Savage......Stevens. They have a Model 200 bolt gun out that is drawing rave reviews. It is made by Savage, in the Savage plant. It is a Savage 110 (long action) with a grey stock instead of black, a normal trigger instead of the accutrigger, and a reportedly excellent Savage made barrel with their barrel nut system. MSRP is $317. I just ordered one from a local shop, for $289 plus tax and background check fee. As an aside...Wal Mart wanted $329 ordering through Davison's.....someone is lining their pockets there.

I went with .270 as an ideal cartridge for hunting in Joe's back 40.....I'll be able to hold over or under a few inches max and plant the shot where I want it from one end of each hunting zone to the other. Will have it in hand Wednesday, zero it and report back.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 04:13:13 (ZULU)

http://www.twincityrodandgun.com/PDF%20files/GuidetoBoresighting.pdf

Quoting from the article:

"For typical mount spacing, the point of aim changes 3/4 MOA per each 0.001inch of shim"

So using the "20" Pos-align inserts in the front and rear would yield 2*20*0.75 = 30 MOA

A 20MOA base wouldn't have given you that much.

How much elevation adjustment is available in your optic?

Typically you offset roughly 50% of the adjustment range, which means the bottom end of the scope adjustment is close to a 100 yd zero. That then gives you the full elevation adjustment for ranges up to 1000 yds.

In .308Win with a good loading and a long barrel, you will need almost 40 MOA adjustment between a 100 and a 1000yd zero.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 04:19:43 (ZULU)

Jeff,

You might want to re-check your info on Burris not making ring offset inserts for their 30 mm rings. I have a set of their Signiture Zee rings with (20 minute)inserts in 30mm.

jc is telling you right; The old stiff necks are mostly gone from the MSSA scene. COME ON DOWN!

Don Black
Rossville, Tn, USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 04:38:14 (ZULU)

Geoff M:

That sounds like a dynamite deal on the Stevens 200.

I have a Savage 110 in .308 Win that was enhanced for long range F-class.

- Synthetic stock reinforced and bedded.

- Sharpshooter's Supply replacement trigger

- Mike Rock 5R brl

(and other stuff bolted on).

I don't feel limited by the rifle when shooting matches.

If the 110 action is up to that, it should make great hunting rifle.

.270 is certainly a respectable hunting cartridge in a long action. (Not that you needed my advice).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 04:39:34 (ZULU)

Update: Ordered Leatherwood 20MOA Picatiny base, Burris 1" Zee rings,set of .020 inserts, and 8oz bedding compound"kit". My Rifle was 3" low with elevation all the way up except for 2 clicks. It has 70MOA of total travel, so I'll need it all. Checked with the Burris sight after not finding them on Brownelles and saw thier 30mm rings come with .010 inserts, glad to know they have .020's also. Should have it all together Wednesday afternoon and will report back cause I've got a bail bonding/enforcement convention to leave for on Thursday. I'm not a big gambler but it's at the Grand in Tunica, MS and the wife really wants to go. I'll give report on Leatherwood base cause I haven't seen anyone mention it here, but it was half the price of Badger.

Don and JC I'll have to drive down to MSSA one Monday and shoot with you guys. It's about an hour and 15 minutes from me but I'd like to see the new range.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 05:12:46 (ZULU)

Jeff...

A "set" of 20 inserts will give you 20 moa, not 40 - for forty, you need two sets. A set consists of a top piece and a bottom piece.

I have found that with most scope setups, that you get just about what the insert says - you want 20" change, the 20 MOA set will give it to you...

... cuz the typical rings spacing is 3.5", and the formula is 1/1000 x the distance equals the amount of change.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 12:51:16 (ZULU)

Hi Hawgs, and a good morning to ya!

I woke to the news that SCOTUS is taking the DC Second ammendment case. At the bottom line, this case is focused on individual rights or state rights in interpretation of the meaning.

As Boortz says: Either you have ten ammendments that limit the government's powers by reserving specific rights to the people...or you have nine doing so with one ammendment giving rights to the government. I doubt the framers were in that mood at the time.

Framed that way, it would be hard to understand anything but a individual rights' ruling. In fact, I am watching this case as a complimentary one to the Kelo case. Either the BS stops now, or the republic is gone (under current management, at any rate).

And the scope of any such ruling is hard to predict--but "sweeping" is one word that comes to mind:))

Joe M
Monday, November 12, 2007, at 14:56:55 (ZULU)

Good Mornin Lito and Others T hat's what I've got comming. 4 halves guess I should've put it that way. I don't know why but to me when you order something for rings they ought to give you what you need for "both" rings. I almost messed up and ordered what they and everyone but me calls a set, which like you say, is 2 halves. How many dishes are in a set? Enough for everyone to eat, not just one person. lol.

It's raining here and that sucks cause I spent 3 hours cleaning "the" gun with everything from Hopes, and Sweets 7.62 to bore paste. Wanted to see how it shot without someone elses fowling in it. Rain, Rain Go Away, Come again some other day. Preferably next summer when we need it, instead of another stupid drought that leaves me broke.

SCOTUS can be unpredictable and you never know how long it'll take for them to hand down a ruleing. Thier job should be to decide whether or not someone has trampled on our individual rights as given us by the Amendments. Not to decide if a right applies to us. They do, that's simple enough. If the government doesn't want us to have a certian right then they have to make another amendment. Simple. To bad that's not the way it works. I spent three years at U of Memphis working on a BA in political science. That was just enough to realize I didn't want a JD, and enough to realize that our government can be really sneeky in how they get what they want by going through the SC instead of inacting/repealing laws. I forgot the word for laws that weren't laws, just court rullings. I still wouldn't want to live in any other country though! God bless the USA and all those who have fought for it and our way of democracy.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 15:05:12 (ZULU)

Wow, the Supreme Court to hear a 2nd Amendment case! That is a huge development.

medicjim
Monday, November 12, 2007, at 15:37:22 (ZULU)

Precedent?

MedicJim: yeah, it's been like some 70 freakin' years, eh? But they really cannot ignore the circuit courts ruling cross-wise from region to region---there is enough opposite rulings in play at that level to pretty much mean absolutely nothing--or anything--you want it to regarding gun laws. Confusion seems to be the Fed's best friend when it comes to advancing the cause of the collective over the individual...and the Justice department has done nothing but add to this confusion over the eyars---counter to its charter--which would be to solve these by appeals to the next (final) court. That they allowed the ninth to say "collective right" and the fifth to say "individual right" on this issue (as but one example of a hundred) says something. They aren't interested in the constitution, just political expediency. It took a corrupt-ass DC Government getting pissed over a brilliant strategic move against their draconian gun laws to bump the issue up! Whereas the DOJ should have, one way or the other, been working to resolve every cross-ruling in the land. As it stands, the constitution has 5 meanings, depending on where you live. WTF??? This DC case is the perfect case from our perspective though---it could, with a decision on merit (not a dodge decision that could come)--define the fed's role in guun control. I expect it to do so, while leaving the question open to the states. A better ruling will give the second the same force as the other 8 (one is for the states) for state limitations. We shall see, eh? It'll be fun to watch.

The most fun will be who and what takes which side. watch the NRA-ILA on this one---they already dodged the intitial case and tried to de-rail it.

This is where we will light up the dark corners and see what lurks inside them! Rudy will be interesting to watch closely onthis issue too. Clinton is a no-brainer, she will oppose this shit without reading a word in any brief!

Heheh! This could be great entertainment.

Joe M
Monday, November 12, 2007, at 16:03:24 (ZULU)

Gents,

Joe M., sent a PM to you on the Howa issue. Let me know if it came through as I had a internet "burp" about the same time.

So, SCOTUS is hearing the second ammendment case. Unfortunately, it will mean nothing, IMHO. SCOTUS will rule in favor of the 2nd ammendment meaning what it says, but just say it will be a state's rights issue. The end result will be zero, nada, zilch, IMHO. I hope like hell I'm wrong and every state/law gets it's peepee wacked at the same time. Lot's on the table here. Both for the Feds, States, and individuals. Government is going to fight like hell for a favorable (to them) outcome. As noted, this will be an interesting issue.

Yesterday found me tracking a single set of elk tracks. Probably a lone bull. Stopped short of some regrowth hoping he'd come back down the small cut I was surveying. About 30 minutes later I heard a single shot. Some bastard had shot "my" bull! Nice little spike...good eating. Had four taken that day. Two spikes and two cows. No one has seen a branch antlered bull, yet. Letting things settle down and will hunt tomorrow hard. Pray for torrential rain! That will get them out of the think stuff and out on the more open flats. For those that haven't hunted the coast mountains of Oregon it a real treat. Usually, wet and muddy, but fun...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 16:39:08 (ZULU)

re: SCOTUS and 2A case - back story

The precipitating jurisduction was DC, but to get it to the SC took some careful strategizing by some pro-gun lawyers and organizations to lay the groundwork.

Read:

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/a_shot_at_the_second_amendment

Don't be distractd, the NRA is a side player in this drama up to now.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 12, 2007, at 18:08:44 (ZULU)

I just read something about illegals getting driver's licenses and the right to vote. Can anyone verify?

I'm about tired of "our" government assholing us. Democracy, my ass! We vote things down repeatedly, then they just back door the issue somehow.

Travis Morgan
Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 02:55:59 (ZULU)

If you are really bored---I mean really bored; or an insomniac like myself--then click my name.

You will find DC's filing with SCOTUS that outlines their case to attempt an overturn of the heller decision of the DC circuit court.

If you have no idea what I am talking about, you must mail me all your weapons by Friday:)) And until a decision is reached, that would be "in care of" my friendly neighborhood FFL. Hehheh.

Reader Digest for those with a life: DC Mayor has really upped the ante with this brief. They cite US v. Miller (yes, the one from U.C novel) as one of three fundemental flaws in the DC Circuit decision...that allows (demands) redress in future decisions to deconflict the logic. The Miller case is fundemental in defining militia, people or whatever in the intent. The other two flaws cited in the main argument are that 2) The ammendment only applies to federal government not restricting the rights (wake up, California); 3) and that by allowing slected firearms (while ristricting others) the district does not violate the ammendment, regardless of who it applies to (people or state).

So, by arguing so broadly---DC is literally throwing every fuckin' gun law in every jurisdiction on the table. As they say in Texas hold'em: "All in."

Now, the justices will have to: 1) Ignore this totally and walk the hell away as fast as they can; 2) Make Marx proud and start the disarmament process by re-writing the constitution's bill of rights yet again (Kelo decision),; or 3) Do their freakin' duty per oath sworn.

Under option 3, it will be interesting to see just how brilliant these robes truly are. Will they rule on the framer's intent and purpose and let all heel break loose? Or will they hedge and haw with "state's rights exceptions" and other hoooie while upholding the basic individual right?

On a side note: The state? Who or what is the state? The Government's interests? What, exactly are those interests? I ask, because as a government "of, by and for" the people, aren't the people the same as the government and the gov is, in fact, the people? As such, does it really fuckin' matter who or what the ammendment applies to in the Miller case? I am the state. The state is me (all together now...). My guns allow for any divorce to be on my terms alone. If somehow "the state" manages to take away my say-so, my implied threat of equal force, then I am no longer a part of the state---I become a subject of the state. That, in a nutshell, is why the second ammendment found a home.

With the government increasingly seeking its own divorce from the people (under its own terms), this ammendment must seriously scare the hell out of them.

Exactly, Just as the framers intended for it to do!

Ya know, I thought the Kelo case was a no-brainer too. Different court then, but still; how in the hell did they read "for public purpose" where the plain written text states clearly and unambiguously "for public use?"

Joe M
Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 03:41:30 (ZULU)

Spot the 'tard. Click.

Or here (different one) http://youtube.com/watch?v=emSL-Ra35kM

Darwin Award candidate: http://youtube.com/watch?v=yTU2o3LGumI

And for those of you that just want to punch Nancy Grace in the face........ http://youtube.com/watch?v=jWPY7b35vF4

Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 05:54:08 (ZULU)

All this SCOTUS stuff makes me wish I hadnt slept thru my "Civics"classes way back when.

I always thought D.C. was not a State but a fancy name for a city.And if it is just a city it cant bring on a stricter gun law than what the State has.And since it isnt a State,It has to be defined as a State before it can bring in a gun law.

Wisconsin is in the process of trying to do this very thing.Write a gun law that is stricter than the States Gun Law.Our crooked Govenor Jim Doyle,Mayor of Milwaukee Tom Barret are trying to ram this thing threw.The law would be limited to Milwaukee and Milwaukee County.But the precedence would leave any city in the State of Wisconsin to write its own gun laws.A very bad thing.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 09:05:08 (ZULU)

'Lito,

You'll love this. I have to go to court today (don't they know it's deer season?) because my dog ALLEGEDLY chewed up(no injuries)the neighbor down the street's pomeranian. (A public service, IMHO)

Well, anyhow, I'm charged with harboring a vicious animal. I kept continuing it, so the City Attorney would drop the charges after we move, but the move's been tabled indefinitely. I decidede to look up the city code, just for good measure, and had to go no further than the glossary section to find where the charge should be dismissed. The Haysville, Ks. city code reads:

(s) Vicious Animal: Any animal, OTHER THAN A DOG, which at any place within the city other than within the fenced or enclosed premises of its owner, possessor, or keeper, makes an unprovoked attack upon a person or other animal or without provocation approaches any person in an apparent attitude of attack.

Since Boomer is a DOG, I suppose they're out of gas. PLUS, the code also states that the summons must be signed by the complainant, (which it ain't) and a hearing has to be held to determine if the dog is vicious before a person can be charged with harboring a vicious animal.

I just hope they don't figure out some other way to hose me. They probably will.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 10:30:23 (ZULU)

Travis...

You should win (but we know that means shit in the courts today).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 12:55:10 (ZULU)

Lito the Trigger Guru: Is there any way to take the Remington trigger group apart. I'm used to the Winchester trigger where you can change springs or cut/get longer ones to get the weight up or down reliably. I have always been able to get a longer but lighter tension spring and then just do a good file job on the trigger and sear to get out take up and creap. On the Remington you can't get to it without taking it apart. I've got my weight about where I want it but the take up is long and NOT smoothe. It's very rough trigger/sear contact surface and has 1/16-1/8 of takeup. Should I just get a timney or do oyou suggest another brand that is adjustable for take up, over travel and weight? I want to be adjustable from 12oz to 40oz depending on whether I'm shooting deer or competing. Have you had to do much fittting on after market triggers or do they drop in pretty well?

The government is the state, we are the people and the alternative name for the first 10 amendments is "the bill of rights". The bill of rights are our "the poeples" right's, suposedly. Precidents and Case Law, the word that I couldn't remember, does however tend to take away from some of these rights, depending on who was sitting at the time of certian cases. Which is good or bad depending on what side of which case you are on. Hopefully they will side with the people on this one and not erode any more of our rights. The SC is more republican/conservative at the moment, but most lawyers are liberals, and lawyers are what the judges are. Will they go with thier feelings or decide to go with a framers mind interpretation? That is what waits to be seen, and like I mentioned earlier, on something as momentious they can be very slow in handing down ruleings with each one having to write thier own explaination. A big case like this, will certianly require lengthy explaination about thier interpretation. The decision could be landmark huge, and they all want thier names to go down in the history books, which requires even more time and explaniation in thier "not so brief" decision brief.

Travis Good luck. I'm behind you on the dog thing. I've got three Pit Bulls that were raised right and wouldn't hurt a fly unless I told them to. Actually only one of them would do that. They are all the sweetest animals you will ever meet except for "sugar" the oldest. She is totally trained in protection, attack and the four main drugs. She's my personal dog, not an LE K9 but I trained her just to show what can be done with a "stupid dog that was bread only to fight end eat little children". That's the publics general opinion of the breed. It comes from the public not being educated and the media labeling every dog that attacks someone a "pit Bull". History shows that while being bread to fight they were also bread not to bite people, so that they could be handeled by thier handlers. You can't have a dog attacking you when you go into the ring to retrieve it or call off a fight. So the "people biting" instinct was intentionally bread out of them. Don't get me wrong, I abhore dog fighting, but history is history, and the uneducated people"sheep" believe whatever they are told by the media"shepards", without thinking for themselves. If it's on TV it's got to be true, right?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 14:29:15 (ZULU)

A very big thank you to all the veterans!

For everything you need to know Savage and Stevens related, come see me at www.savageshooters.com, go to the forums.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 19:51:14 (ZULU)

Jeff...

Go here:

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/RemingtonTriggers.asp

And follow the instructions TO THE LETTER. They are good instructions - I know the guy what wrote them.

You cannot take the Remington body apart, and it is riveted together...

... but you don't need to.

Remove the screws for adjustment and the springs behind them will come out.

New LIGHTER springs are available from Brownell's, Darrel Holland, and some guys on e-bay. I get the ones on e-bay - same shit, lower price.

The Remington trigger itself has a funny "L" shaped piece that sits loose on top, instead of a real sear.

It sits on top of the trigger proper, and is what is in contact with the pin release sear (arm).

You can take this "L" piece out (as well as the pin release arm) and work them on a fine oiled Arkanas stone. Make sure that you move the parts in the same direction that they move, not sideways, cuz if you do sideways, you will get a trigger that "steps". Martha says "... and that's a bad thing".

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 21:25:01 (ZULU)

Unpat- unless Wisconsin has a state pre-emption act, any city/county can pass laws stricter than state law. 'Course if your state constitution says different, then that comment doesn't apply. Quite a few states passed pre-emption to nullify a crazy quilt result of cities getting uppity about gun laws. Probably quite a few of those laws were the result of the rest of the state getting tired of attitude:)

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 02:51:05 (ZULU)

Lito Thanks, I've never had to mess with Remington triggers. I always owned Winchesters. The L piece will need length taken off, instead of the contact surface. The contacting piece you speak of could use some work also. It's mainly just a looong pull before it breaks. You can see the surfaces through a little hole, but I haven't taken the assembly off yet. I had just followed your directions the other day to see if I could get it lighter than it already was. That's when I realized it was soo long when I got it lighter. Replacing the springs with longer, lighter ones will allow me to get it reliably lighter like replacing the tension spring on the over travel screw and cutting the other spring on the Winchester. Correct? I had worked on Winchesters and all my 1911's before, but they are pretty strait forward. I had the already Remington down pretty low, but your method and order in the article helped me and also gave me a better understanding of what's hidden inside the secret walls of the trigger body. Remington probably builds it that way so people can't just look at it, figure it out, and mess with it themselves. Thanks again.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 03:02:56 (ZULU)

Jeff: The government as the state is a newer development in this nation's history. Let me clarify that: The state's attitiude as "over the people" rather "of, by and for" is the new development. Conversely, civic duty is gone too---it is a two way street after all. A government's natural tendency is to expand itself---ad in the apathy of the average American, and lookit what we wrought.

Still thinking of dumping that M21. I can' talk myself into keeping it. I really want a rack-grade, and I have too much respect for this one to step it down to battle rifle. I figure someone, somewhere will appreciate it as it is.

Last night, some douche from germany was probing port 80 on my machine, attempting a system entry. I echo'd his ass back thru 12 hops to his IP. I also got contact info for reporting this to his ISP with the same software. My new firewall rocks! Like anything else, it has a weakness somewhere, so i won't name it openly--but I'll let ya know if your interested offline.

I had a few trojans and 52 spyware programs that Macafee, Norton and Iolo did not root out---they happily ignored these. This new one bagged them. I bet that douche was trying to come back and use his code for whatever reason--not realizing that I had him tagged.

A pox on these asshats!

Joe M
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 04:55:22 (ZULU)

Jeff...

Don't shorten the "L" piece. Just hone the top of it. Then hone the corresponding surface on the release sear piece.

Also.. if you get longer but weaker springs, you must make sure that the range you want is in the spring, cuz that will limit the amount of overall adjustment. Being longer, you will also have a limit on the amount of compression, so you might wind with something like being able to go from 39 to 31 ounces.

The side hole allows you to see the engagement... the factory sets them optically, which is how they know if you have fooled with them. The screw in the back sets engagement... thats why you don't cut the "L" piece - you set the engagement (trigger creep) with the back screw.

Remington didn't design the trigger like you said:

"Remington probably builds it that way so people can't just look at it, figure it out, and mess with it themselves."

You gotta remember that when Remington designed the original 721/722 (the grandfathers of the M-700), they didn't give a shit if "we messed with it".

In those days, you were EXPECTED to adjust your trigger, like the seats on a new car... or have the smith do it for you.

The Remington trigger was designed to be cheap to make. Even though it has more pieces parts, it can be assembled by idjits - whereas the Winchester is a bitch to install, and requires fitting by a skilled machinist/gunsmith who was specially trained for it - even the average gunsmith cannot install a NEW Winchester trigger (not talkin about adjusting the pull weight).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 10:28:20 (ZULU)

Well...

It's another shitty day in Connecticut, the Kalifornia of the east coast!

A few weeks ago, I e-mailed Ruggus Rattus a little 30 second video from the sand pit showing a night time (green NVD) air strike on the baddies. It was not filled with gore or anything... just green stars floating down to this mud and stucco "house", with BGs in the yard.

Well... the Rat shows it to some school kids on his laptop computer at school yesterday.

BOOM, the bomb drops, and he is out for two weeks... then his shit ball of a mother takes all privileges (TV, cell phone, and computer) away for two weeks.

I called the school and asked if they had rules about showing videos that are seen every night on the news, and she says, "Well, no, but we don't like anything violent in school".

So I asked, "Couldn't you handle that a little less aggressively, I mean it's like using a sledge hammer when a fly swatter would have worked better?"

... no answer!

Then I wake up to the TV news, and my local gun store (1 mile away) is in the news. It's a great gun store, with lotsa stuff, and what they don't have, they can get in a day or two... it's clean and neat, and a credit to the shooting industry.

Well... some desperate assholes drove a large truck through the front of the store at 3 AM and stove in the whole store front!

They will be closed for a few months... and it's hunting season, and they will loose most of the hunting season, plus the holiday gift season.

The day will probably go down hill from here :(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 14:33:16 (ZULU)

Lito Makes sense. Soo, I can look at the engagement with the fireing pin cocked and adjust the screw while watching through the hole like your instructions say, till it dropps and then back it up some. With it everything else set too light I guess I screwed it too far trying to pass the reliability test. You can get it not to drop and really light but it has a LONG pull that way. So lightening it up reliabily needs the spring change. I guess Like you say, I'm trying to push it past the design limits. How low have you been able to get one with sppring changes? Only to about 31ozs, I'm guessing. I may try to see if a smith buddy of mine has an extra old one that he has taken off someone elses rifle and get it from him so that I can have one that I can tear up and take comletely apart, rivets and all. If so, I'll take some pictures of the insides of it and figure a way to get them posted or if you like you can add them to your "How To" so others can get an idea of what's inside and how it works. I'm guessing they are they outsourcing the trigger group and then dropping them in at factory? Thanks.

Just read your second post. You've helped me too much and my luck has rubbed off on ya. Sorry bout that. Sound's like our kids go to the same school too. Mine is in after school detention for demerrits every Tue and Thur which is the only days the school has it. She'd be ther avery day if they had it, and she's basicly a good kid. I'm not sure I wouldn't wrather she get suspended than stay after. I have to drive to town to get her when she does, and that's about $15 in diesel per trip, not to mention interupting my afternoon siesta or getting to my hunting spot late, which ever I'm doing. Look on the bright side. I'm getting all that ring, base, insert, bedding stuff today, and you get to answer all my stupid questions concerning that. Don't you wish I'd never bought another tacticle rifle and come back to this site!!Haha.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 15:16:45 (ZULU)

Jeff...

I don't understand why you are having so much trouble with it. Adjusting a Remington trigger is "child easy".

You are not "pushing it past it's design limits"... you're not that hot! You haven't even gotten close to them yet.

>"How low have you been able to get one with sppring changes? Only to about 31ozs, I'm guessing."<

HA!... Double HA!! - I regularly bring them to 24-28 ounces WITH the factory spring. And they break like glass. You gotta drink two "Mo'gan Tahnies" before you start.

>"I may try to see if a smith buddy of mine has an extra old one that he has taken off someone else's rifle and get it from him so that I can have one that I can tear up and take completely apart, rivets and all. If so, I'll take some pictures of the insides of it and figure a way to get them posted or if you like you can add them to your "How To" so others can get an idea of what's inside and how it works."<

The trigger is NOT a secret NSA device that was captured from the Rooskies - no one needs to know what is inside, cuz the diagram tells it all - and seeing one apart won't help anyone adjust it.

You are having way too much trouble with this trigger... This chore might be past your skill set.

>"I'm guessing they are they outsourcing the trigger group and then dropping them in at factory? Thanks."<

WRONG!!! What makes you say something like that - you have no information on that!

Go read SniperCountry "The rules of engagement":

http://www.snipercountry.com/roster/RulesEngagement.html

Pay special attention on articles #2 and #3.

I gots no patience with home grown theories being tossed around like confetti at a New Years party. People read that shit, and repeat it on some other board, and the guys on SC looks like a bunch of bullshitting assholes. We folks on SC have a very good reputation on the internet... don't poop on it!!

>" Don't you wish I'd never bought another tacticle rifle and come back to this site!!Haha."<

Ah... er... I don't think you wanna go there...

'lito (off to fight life's wars).

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 16:28:38 (ZULU)

A good read!

http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm

(Edit for phat finger syndrome) "On sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs".

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 16:34:37 (ZULU)

Lito:

From what I have seen in the news for US and Canada, the general policy theme at most schools today is "zero tolerance" for anything related to violence or weapon-like things. If someone triggers one of the zero tolerance items at a school, boom! - they're out of there for the prescribed period, no discression applied.

I've read stories elsewhere in the news about students being suspended for drawing non-threating pictures involving firearms, or pointing a finger like a firearm in a non-threating manner.

Sad state of affairs - make you wonder why we need to pay large salaries to school administrators, since they no longer need to bring reasoning and judgement to the job.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 16:40:41 (ZULU)

The one thing that you could probably do to counter the 'zero tolerance to violence' thing is to request detailed, written lesson plans for all the classes and days your son will miss (complete with any supporting artifacts the class will be provided). They should be able to produce the documents within 24 hours as they are required to have them for every day of class. Be sure to act profoundly shocked when they cannot provide such documentation. So shocked that you feel compelled to do the right thing and bring it to the school board's attention immediately, after all, it would derelect not to have detailed, written daily lesson plans.

medicjim
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 18:04:47 (ZULU)

Rod, MedicJim et-al; the zero-tolerance BS is a simple dodge. There are many other social ills that follow back to the same root causes: Responsibility! No one wants to assume the repsonsibility, but these same folks all seek and crave the authority just fine. One without the other often leads to this.

You see this same cause and effect in political speech. One guy says something along the lines of slander against our troops---another guy calls him onit, and the slanderin' fool retreats to his "free speech" rights and cries of questioned patriotism. The bottom line? This type wants the unfettered right to pander to any radical without accepting any responsibility at all for his words.

In zero tolerance--you have one size fits all outcomes assigned to any and all rules, no matter how vaguely defined. This way--no one in authority has to face the responsibility of using judgment. It is, after all, much easier to weild power when you aren't responsible for its effects. It is also the single worst sin I found in fellow officers. I have, perhaps...hypothetically...maybe fingered my safety in anger in Iraq....maybe coulda...but yeah, this pisses me off to no certain end.

We can thank two direct influences for this abdication of assumed responsibility: One is trial lawyers. The other is the education system that promotes self esteem over performance and consequences.

Don't like it??? Address the two causes first. Then wait til it works out of society...we who are attuned to the problem call this "tough love."

My son is about to be victimized by some of this wonderful wake-up medicine:))

Lito: Thank you. I was skimming thru those posts---and thought that a few statements could reflect badly on the sight (as in whatta bunch of idiots)...but let it fly since no one seemed concerned. This is, after all, a place to learn. No question is "dumb" or some such cliche...but questions are questions...and statements of fact better be just that!!!

I think you addressed that very nicely---courteous and respectful with a solution on how to fix the problem; that's much better than I would have (sooner or later)!

Joe M
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 18:22:18 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

Yes,Wisconsin has a Pre-emeptive law in place,this Bill was passed in '96...The Gov and Mayor are tryin to get Milwaukee/Milwaukee County exempt from the Pre-emptive...But to do so they need to change WI State Constitution...and they are bein really sneaky about it.I thought most states had a pre-emptives in place?

The law they would like to see in place and apply to Milwaukee/Milwaukee County is with handguns.I live in Milwaukee County....Say YOU live in Green Bay.If you were to loan me a handgun to hunt with,I would have 48hrs to Register that handgun with the Police/Sheriff's dept that YOUR handgun is now in MY possesion.It doesnt matter that it was registered at the time of when YOU bought it from a Federally Compliant Gunshop or if it wasnt thru a private sale.I would STILL have to bring it in,have them run the numbers on it("for stolen gun trackin"-they claim )and have it re-registered to me.Nobody mentions anything about having the firearm removed from the registry once I return it back to YOU....

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 20:14:07 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Stand-up slowly and walk quickly away from Milwaukee, please do not look back. EVER!!! :)

I moved out 5 years ago and have never looked back. Except for Work.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 21:30:46 (ZULU)

Joe U.

Permanent evac plan in the works to Black River Falls Area.Or NW of that.Only prob is,between Madison and Milwaukee there are more than enough Liberals to carry votes.Wich as you and I know is how Doyle got in from AG to Gov....The rest of the State didnt want him as Gov.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 22:00:12 (ZULU)

Lito,

"On sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves"

Grossman's books, and his research, are fascinating stuff you never learned in 'proper' schools. Should be required reading, along with Machiavelli and Sun Tzu (sp?).

Duman
Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 22:07:00 (ZULU)

Gents,

Elk season ended yesterday and I didn't score. Not for want of trying. A case of not being in the right place at the right time, I'm sure. The animals ARE there. This time of year the Rooseveldt Elk are usually bunched up in groups of 4-8. The lone tracks we find are usually small "satellite" bulls. The upshot of the season was that I know of five elk taken in the immediate area hunted. Two cows, two spikes, and one 4 X 5 bull.

Was tracking a single set of tracks last Sunday and stopped short of a reforested area thinking some hunters on top might run the animal out. Someone drove around into that area and shot the animal. That group was using hand held radios and a number of hunters to push the animals to waiting party members. In my case it was myself and an old high school buddy. Upshot is the animals will be there next year and I can try again. Today it's clean gear and store for later use.

Zero-tolerance schools. I have heard of this in our area, but know of no cases. Don't have any kids of my own, but I have grand kids 5 and 8. Going to watch the situation closely. Luckily BOTH like to go shooting with G'Pa...;-)

Joe, you're right. Everyone is afraid to accept any responsibility or teach anything where the little folk might have to make a serious decision. A perfect set-up to create drones that will look to the government to think for them and take care of them. Think I'm going to go hurl...

Wonder if anyone in these situations has sought to sue the schools for something. Heck, if someone can make the McDonald's Hot Coffee incident into a case and win there has to be a similar paralells somewhere. Psychological damage from being banned from school for something that is in the Bill of Rights? Freedom of speech and expression? How about descrimination?

The man who said: "First we kill all the lawyers" needs to add teachers to the list...

Enough...this is gonna ruin my vacation.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 22:23:13 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Good thinking about the move, I would have loved to moved up that way but theres no work in that direction for me.

You sure are right on Dimwit Jim, you get out of Milw. & Mad. and he has no support.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 22:40:31 (ZULU)

'lito "You gotta drink two "Mo'gan Tahnies" well go for it man.

I wasn't guestioning you, I was asking you questions.

HA!... Double HA!! - I regularly bring them to 24-28 ounces WITH the factory spring. And they break like glass.

"You gotta drink two "Mo'gan Tahnies" before you start.""so you might wind with something like being able to go from 39 to 31 ounces."

Your quote, that I copy and pasted thats why I asked you the QUESTION

"WRONG!!! What makes you say something like that - you have no information on that!

You're right, That's why there's a question mark as to ellicit an answer from you because you DO have the information that I would like.

"I don't understand why you are having so much trouble with it.""You are not "pushing it past it's design limits"... you're not that hot! You haven't even gotten close to them yet."

I wasn't having "that much trouble" till I tryed to get it lower than 28. Of course this is a Theory, but your 24-28oz MAY have variations different than mine due to manufacturing QC in the springs or elsewhere. Also read the rest of #3 as I do more than fly cropdusters and kill deer.

"Lito Thanks""Thanks again.""? Thanks." Untill now, notice "thanks" in my posts directed to you out of respect for your knowledge of the triggers, and guestions were just that, honest questions, not questioning your knowledge."This is, after all, a place to learn. No question is "dumb" or some such cliche..."

"drink two "Mo'gan Tahnies" ,chill out, and watch your muzzle, it's sweeping me unnecessiarily. If I posted some information that was wrong it's because I was given some wrong information and I corrected it as soon as newer intel was given to me. fire for effect.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 23:25:42 (ZULU)

Hey Guy's,

I have had the 9 year old shooting my BB gun for about a year now and last week-end she shot one of my .22's for the first time. The biggest problem is the size of the gun compared to her size. First should I buy a youth model .22 for her or maybe a full size and cut down the stock for her? I do have a 7 & 5 year old that haven't started shooting yet but the gun would get plenty of use over the next 5 to 7 years.

My second question is are there any good books out there on teaching kid's to shoot? I am a decent shot and I don't have any problem hitting what I am shooting at but I am self taught and don't want to pass-on any bad habits of mine on them.

So any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 23:46:30 (ZULU)

Jeff...

You win!

See how easy that was...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 23:51:46 (ZULU)

Joe, You'll get no arguement from me on your last post regarding responsibility.

This forum doesn't support sig lines, else I'd have my standard one up.....I try to use it in all my religion posts. I later ask...."who's doing the saddling?"

"No man was ever endowed with a right without being at the same time saddled with a responsibility."

Gerald W. Johnson

medicjim
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 00:12:48 (ZULU)

On the school thing...

I'm not bitchin cuz it was my Rat... I have been worried about this stuff since before he was a glint in my eye.

I remember 25 years ago, when a group of Christian kids were punished in school for praying at lunchtime in the school cafeteria. Two weeks out for violating separation of church and state (???).

I spoke out that I saw an anti-religious crusade was coming (it WAS 25 years ago), and people laughed at me... said I was paranoid (and you know what THAT means).

Back some years ago, I knew that the "zero tolerance" movement was not about violence, it was about cultural control. Some kidlet PROUDLY brought in a picture of his brother who was in "Desert Storm" ('91) in uniform, with all his buds around a tank. No dead Iranians, no blood, no nuttin... just the same kind of picture that solders all over the world (from ALL countries) have been sending back to their family's since forever.

The kidlet was suspended for a month for threatening the other kids with a picture of a violent "war thing"!

I recently read that Abraham Lincoln said (paraphrased), "The attitudes you see in the schools today, are the attitudes you will see in congress in the future".

I don't know what sane thinking parents are gonna do with their rats... when I get the Rat, I'll go down to the school with him, and tell the principal about our life with firearms, and ask that Jase and I have a written policy on what he can say and what he can't.

It sucks...

... and where are the neutral or right thinking colleges??? None of them around here can be trusted on ideological basis... en-ga-neering, yes... history, political science, social studies, world events, etc... hell NO!!

:(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 00:19:02 (ZULU)

JLU,

Buddy of mine & I run a youth rifle program at our range. We get kids of all ages & abilities. For a young one the Crickets are a great option. For somewhat older kids there are some good Romanian Military training rifles on the surplus market, and finally CMP offers good rifles for the advanced kids. The Cricket can be had at Walmart for not much $$.

For teaching materials, both the NRA and CMP have some good stuff. I've got serious issues with the NRA's political non-action, but the teaching materials are pretty good, especially for the kids. Shoot me an e-mail if you want more detail.

Lito, "Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" was a great read, passed it on to several. Beer's on me whenever we meet.

Bill

SSG Mac
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 02:04:51 (ZULU)

Pablo: "...even the average gunsmith cannot install a NEW Winchester..."

Around here the average smith can't find his ass with both hands. They are worse than useless.

CDC'
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 02:36:39 (ZULU)

Joe U,

Its a nice area,Folks retired and moved back to Dads hometown of Blair, Holmen has a decent 250yrd range,and silhouettes,membership is $50/calender year and its about a 20-25 min drive from the folks.

Plus the Holmen Meat Locker has decent meat,Aint shot the range... yet.But will sometime soon.Dads been buggin me about movin up since they bought thier place...and the huntin is good too.Turkey,Deer,Yotes enough to keep this fool happy.

My time in this City(Cudahy)is comin to a close soon....We are gonna hang around till her boy turns 18 in a couple years,so the biological contributor wont be whinin to his lawyer on where kid care dollars are goin.Headin up there Friday for the Deer season and stayin the whole 9 days so I might get some job/housin scoutin in as well.Depends on how many deer I drop.Its Earn a Buck,so we will see.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 03:04:04 (ZULU)

I've been thinking for a while now, that the NRA or someone should start a college. It'd be nice to find a school where you can talk about God or guns, and be recognised as a freak when you are a freak. Freedom of speech should work both ways.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 03:41:08 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Saw your post about schools and the stupid BS that passes for policy these days.

My kids went to a public high school here that has a real nice indoor rifle range. The USMC sponsors it along with local business, and the school board. The rifle team pays them back with trophy after trophy from regional and national events. My kid worried my wife when he announced that he had enrolled in the USMCJROTC program at school. His grades improved greatly and he graduated with about a 3.6 GPA if I recall. He also shot NRA High Power Rifle with me for several years. One hell of a rifle shooter. He plans to go to medical school next year. My daughter is pretty good too, but she's more of a pistol shooter.

What kind of monkey-brained SOS suspends a good kid for bringing a non-gory war photo to class?

BillB

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 04:34:17 (ZULU)

My son and I are in the arms room tonight. Doing those evil gun type activities like cleaning and placing scopes on odd-ass firearms.

So he tells me a story about a search and seizure incident. Back in tax-a-two-shits, he was walking down the hall programming a girl's number into his cell (I asked about whose number:)) A hall nazi takes said phone. He gets called to the office during that next class and questioned by the principal: "Do you know why your here?" (to get my property back.) "No, we have the police enroute." (Why?) "Because we looked at your pictures in memory, and found YOU holding ASSAULT WEAPONS!" (So?) "Well, we have a zero tolerance for this sort of thing..." (Excuse me? But zero tolerance for going to work with my father at a US military installation and participating in an openhouse show and tell?) "Well, uh..." (those shots are out of state, six months old, with my father, who happens to be a green beret serving in Afghanistan or someplace right now). The local cops show up, and everyone has sympathy for the little boy whose poor dumb father is stuck in war.

I was proud that he handled it on his own. First I heard of it was not 30 minutes ago! Heheh---he did stretch the truth. Those shots were in our backyard. ARs and AKs---just because kids dig them. Remember my post a while back about how he handled the .45 his first time with one? The photos were from that range session!

My beef is, WTF does the school think about the fourth ammendment? Apparently they never heard of that one. Well, good that it ended there. I was an angry cuss when I got home, and all that defending of the constitution woulda made me touchy on this subject:)).

I am not looking forward to tomorrow at all. I have a 12 bore to check zero, two 300WMs, an '06, a brand-assed-new HOWA M1500 greenie Hogue stocked-Loopie wearin' walking riffle in 308 (yeah, i got it), two 260s, a 7mm Mag, and my .44 mag handygun. Heheh. I bet I learn how to flinch along the way. The shoulder is better, but not that much better!

Who am I kidding? I did not buy a bullet--this will be a hoot.

Joe M
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 04:37:35 (ZULU)

"The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots". I hope I'm still young enough to play when it comes around.

Looks like I might get my wish and be able to retire from the Police Dept. and go schlep around in the sandbox for a while. In all honesty, I've been bored shitless for the last 15 years, and it's time to do what I want for a while. I'm keeping every digit I can still flex that it's not just a pipe dream.....And I'll finally be able to afford a rifle I have to call some famous guy and pay for far in advance.....Woo Hoo!

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 05:34:53 (ZULU)

Gents,

May I jump in for a sec?

I see big green has a new AR platform riffle they need to sell me. Designed in conjunction with the market leader in AR platforms. They failed to mention who that "market leader" is. Any clue? Boon or bust for us hopeless M1A owners?

Also noticed the SCOTUS delayed hearing the case til 11/20something? Big shocker, huh?

Headed SW to West-by-God Sat. Can`t wait to hunt under the windmills and see if it`s like sitting under a giant hair dryer. Could this be the last year? Screw Algore.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 06:27:55 (ZULU)

Joe,

Those school Nazis piss me off to no end. They teach about individual rights to free speech, freedom of expression, non-violent protest, and all that other bullshit, and then turn around and search your kid's phone just for shits and giggles! What's next? Are they gonna search his underwear next time they think he's getting a boner, and call him a sex offender?

It's pretty fucked up that they protect the rights of every freak and pervert on earth, but seem to go into witchhunt mode whenever they see an everyday american.

'Lito,

Got the charges dismissed. REALLY pissed off the City Attorney. I kinda dig beating them at their own game. Judge even gave me a little smile. Now, they wanna have a hearing about whether or not my dog is vicious, even though 1/2 of the cause for the complaint is from about a year ago. Being right might cost me, at this point.

She looked like she'd just swallowed a frog when I asked to make a motion to dismiss, and saw my copy of the code in my hand, hehe! Next thing I know, she's out in the hallway, whispering, and I heard her say, "We're gonna get him on anything we can!". I'm gonna look, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing I can do about her harassing me like this. The code enforcement officer even seemed pissed at him. HE told me it was bullshit.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 09:13:46 (ZULU)

Joe M...

>"My beef is, WTF does the school think about the fourth amendment?"<

Joe... don't confuse the issues with things like the Constitution, and the Rights of the people!!

Steve Racer...

The Remington ARs are made by Bushpuppy... they're both owned by the same holding company now, and apparently, unlike Remingtons owners in the past, THIS company likes guns and gun people (The CEO is a gun nut!!)

Travis...

Good on the doggie thing.

And "but seem to go into witch hunt mode whenever they see an everyday American."

Everyday Americans are getting to be an endangered species. I feel more and more like a minority every day :(((

I got a nice e-mail from a long time lurker. (You guys would be AMAZED at how many lurkers we have - I mean it's in the the tens of tens of thousands every month).

This lurker is a student in the state of Washington. I'll call him David (cuz that's his name ;).

David is a Senior, and an out door nut - Fishes the rivers most weekends, and has a bunch of knives and a biggassed 'chetty.

A few years ago, the principal got wind of this bunch of ka-niffs, and called David to the office.

When David explained that it was fishing and bushwhackin stuff, the principal took them away "for safe storage" and David can have them any time he wants.

David goes to a private (boarding) school.

Cool on you, David, and stay lurking as long as you want.

It's a sad state of affairs when the only time you can get your rights is when you can afford to pay for them... and you can't have them in a state owned and run school.

And "they" keep asking "us", why we don't trust the goberment to "administer" out gun rights with permit systems.

Gimme un friggin breako.

I see it coming sometime in the future, cuz this shit is getting old.

David... I'll toast to you on my next Mo'gan Tahnie.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 09:57:19 (ZULU)

I just read a post on another site about a guy that gets 18" groups at ONE MILE (1760 yds)... and says he shoots clay pigeons at that range.

There seems to be no limit to mans imagination, and I am always amazed at the groups that can be shot with a keyboard!

;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 10:26:16 (ZULU)

'Lito,

The way I figure, a clay pigeon a mile away from me is no threat, so I just leave 'em alone.

I don't suppose you sent him to David Tubb's website, didja? Some people just don't have sense enough to be embarrassed at their own bullshit.

BTW, What do you guys think of Mitt Romney?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 10:41:34 (ZULU)

Travis...

So far, I think a Romney/Huckaby ticket would beat everything they can come up with... and with it, Huckaby would get the national attention (and grooming) to take the next 8 years, so we would have 16 years to straighten out the mess we have now. I like Huckaby best, but he's not ready for prime time on his own yet.

Romney has been very careful not to alienate any of the other candidates by ugly name calling, so he can choose one of them to run with him.

Giuliani has a LOT of bad baggage from NYC that will come out if he gets the nomination and has to run "mano a fe-mano". Giuliani is an anti-gun asshole in sheep's clothing.

A Clinton/Obama ticket would be strong with the lefties, but would drive many of the middle of the road and independent voters over to our side. Also, she has shit on Obama pretty hard, and I don't think he would second fiddle to her now...

... She is truly scary and is probably responsible for so many gay men in the democratic party (they were straight until they net her...)

I don't know who Clinton is going to come up with... she has alienated all of her running mates, so she has to come up with a new face, and I can't think of ONE political that would want to be her "second fiddle", unless he was some God awful whimp-assed-pussy, and the country would not go for that combination.

I think she "looks" strong now, but there are a LOT of things against her.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 11:52:25 (ZULU)

LOL. Click. Set your coffee down.

Travis Morgan
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 12:09:06 (ZULU)

Travis, whatever you linked to, it's been flagged and requires a login.

Lito, with 3M+ visitors to this site, i had figured the number to be in the tens of thousands, and you verified that. Unless some of the regulars visit several hundred times each day, and don't post.

I've seen a few Colt SP-1 carbines for sale, recently. They look like AR-15 A2 in flavor. What is it about them that people really like? I'm in the market for a carbine (blame Bravo, it's ALLLLL his fawt). :8--)

Duman
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 14:07:18 (ZULU)

Duman: Take a look at the S&W M&P carbines. Brace yourself for some sticker shock. The prices have gotten a little crazy since Ms Pelosi and Company took over.

CDC'
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 14:56:44 (ZULU)

Duman...

>"I've seen a few Colt SP-1 carbines for sale, recently. They look like AR-15 A2 in flavor. What is it about them that people really like? I'm in the market for a carbine (blame Bravo, it's ALLLLL his fawt). :8--)"<

It IS alllll his fawt!

I don't know what it is - I actually bought it in '92 when they were about to pass an "assault gun ban" here in "Kalifornia East"... in fact, my state took the Kalifornia law, including all of the typos and grammatical errors, and passed it intact.

So I ran down to the local Assault-riffle-Cafeteria and bought a Galil A.R.M. in 308, and the Colts SP-1, cuz it was "cute" (and I already had a few AR H-Bars).

I didn't have much appreciation for it, and was even thinking of putting a heaver barrel on it some day... until I took it to a Jon Farnam course in Urban Combat, and the little puppy showed it's true colors. It swept the match.

What I have come to love about it that it is light, fast, chrome lined barrel (neva wear out), they point and shoot like a pistol and hit like a rifle. You can shoot it with one hand, or take people sized targets out at 400 mtrs. If life got shitty in the streets, and I was on foot, it is the only long firearm I would want.

I wouldn't change a thing on it now.

A friend of mine has a case for a tennis racket and it has a pocket for tennis balls attached to it. A real "Yuppie" accessory ;)

He converted it into a foam lined gun case for an SP-1, and the pocket is filled with magazines. Talk about a incognito go kit for a business man ;))))

How much are they asking for the ones that you saw???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 15:01:58 (ZULU)

It's not "new" news... but LRBT (Lost River Ballistic Technologies) went Tits Up a little while ago - they were the ones that made the loooong bronze bullet for the 408 Chey-Tac, which without those bullets, the 408 CT is useless. The company was a mess for a long time, and got lost along the way, and lost sight of the goal. A major player, Warren Jensen, claimed to be an West Point Graduate in Ordnance Engineering, and it turned out that his degree was in Public Relations... (and Martha says, "That's a bad thing").

Also... ol' D**n M******s is out of the shooting business - he's selling a lot of his stuff, his website is down, and apparently he's going back to school to work in the med field as a nurse and then a physicians asst.

I truly wish him the best of luck - he was (is) a very talented shooter that, along the way, also lost sight of some important things in life.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 16:13:42 (ZULU)

CDC', thanks for the pointer, I'll take a look.

Lito-san, I saw a few between $1500 and $2K, but they looked a little rough around the edges. It's hard to tell from a photo.

I had a chance to handle a SIG-556 last weekend. It's light and maneuverable, but I wasn't impressed with fit/finish (it looked a bit cheesy). That's just visual, I'm sure it functions very well.

I wonder if Bravo would spot me the dough for the carbine .... :8-o

Duman
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 16:56:14 (ZULU)

I thought I just felt an alignment of rights and wrongs...a chill of come-upance crossed thru this room....naw; it's just the draft in this old house! heheh. What goes around comes around--and it usually passes over the top and nails ya with full downward force!

Lost rivers, lost bullets, lost 1/2 mile shots at will. Hey, can I use this as my newest excuse for flubbing shots? I mean, it could go like this:

"I could have made that shot a million times over in a hurricane if only I still had my lost river gear..."

Okay...that is enough piling on for me! I do wish D34N well; he is still a long lost brother in arms--and, apparently, I should have met him as such (I dunno if I did).

Someday a technology so new and se radically different will emerge. It will either be the real deal, or yet another charletan. I just hope none of us gets sucked into a bad deal, or that we are open enough to see the real deal when it comes. "Cry wolf" things like this does no one--on either side--any damned good.

Pop psychology: The trick to being better than everyone you meet is to never let them know it unless they absolutely deserve to know it. Being better than everyone means you must live with this secret all to yourself!

John Kerry's last words as a presidential hopeful: "I can't believe I am losing to this idiot..." Heheh. He does a poor job at hiding his assumed superiority. Heheheheheh.

Now for something completely different:

(that reference is for you Rod...i know you are a fan|)

"An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything"

I have got to find this recently published unification theory and read it!

Okay, coffee break is over...I have to stand on my head again...

The range session is going OK, but the loopy riflemen c-thru rings (aluminum, high and stupid rings) shot loose (BLR, 300 mag). Either my torque wrench isn't calibrated anymore, seeeee-conck---or this one was defective. It stripped the cross slot bolt on the third shot. The windage went stupid on me. I think it is the torque wrench--since I did the same thing last night on my signature zees (though these have been used and re-used by me and the wife as fillers til the badgers arrive on at least 7 rifles---lotsa wear and tear--and they went right at the point of initial tension. FFFFFFFFfuuuu--uh-uh-errr, never mind. Off to the stores.

Maybe the cold-ass wind will let up while I am out and about? Please? The sting in the cheeks takes all the fun out of shooting someone else's bullets:))

OK, this is one of the rare "no dishes, no laundry" days when retirement feels right.

Joe M
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 17:16:10 (ZULU)

Duman,

You might want to take a look here,http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/,Under rifles,then Modern Tact/Military.I havent dealt with them personally,so I dont know how they are.The inventory will get the juices flowing.Several SP1's, prices are about the same range as you mentioned.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 17:28:33 (ZULU)

SP1 repro

http://www.fulton-armory.com/FAR-15-Service.htm#LegacyUppers

An AR15-A1E is very much like an SP1, without the historic cache and associated cost.

http://www.bushmaster.com/images/catalog/Parts_Accessories/Lower_Receivers/A1UR.gif

Look on the bottom, left hand side of page 64 to see the A1E windage knob configuration

http://www.bushmaster.com/electronic-documents/2005Catalogv1/Page%2064-70%20Sights%20Scopes%20&%20Mounts.pdf

medicjim
Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 18:16:49 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Blair, I hunted just North/East of town back in the late 80's (Wifes Sisters farm) then they moved to Bloomer and hunted there for years until some rich guy from the state below us offered big money to lease the land. Now I go to Richland Center.

SSG Mac,

I'll shoot you a email next week when I am back in town.

Good luck to all you WIS. hunters this week.

JLU out

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 22:11:37 (ZULU)

Joe U,

E mail inbound.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Thursday, November 15, 2007, at 22:58:28 (ZULU)

Greeting from Aberdeen MD.

I visited the Aberdeen Proving Grounds Ordnance Museum today and got a personal tour from Jack Atwater, Museum Director. You may recognize him as Dr. William Atwater from "The History Channel" series on firearms.

The museum is a military gun lovers dream. Dr. Atwater warned us not to drool on the firearms, many of which I had heard of but never seen, including the XM-8 and a Spencer Model 1894.

Dr. Atwater is retiring on 30 November after many years of service to the US Government. He says he has a job with a cruise line in the Caribbean and that the contract has a magarita clause. He is a gracious host and his photo is in my album. If you have chance to to visit, just knock on the door.

The museum is scheduled to be moved to Ft Lee in the near future. I'll have to go back and look at the armor display that is outside the museum.

Trajan

Aberdeen Provong Ground Museum
East Bay, Kalifornya, USA !!! - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 01:23:13 (ZULU)

Constitutional rights & schools- a shocking number of admin types have no clue as to their responsibilities/students rights. Apparently, none ever watch Law & Order. The Education Establishment (retch) seems to maintain many of the same practices from the days when teachers/admin stood in loco parentis without accepting the responsibilities thereof. Evidentally, "educators" can't find time to get briefed on legal issues relevent to their job descriptions.

Had an incident with my older boy in high school-couple of them actually. The most serious, I had a talk with our attorney, former Commonwealth Attorney, about denial of due process and a laundry list of other Bill of Rights issues. He agreed with my evaluation. Did some desk pounding during the meeting with the school admin types, then wrote a very polite letter to the county school administration. The letter set out the high school administrators sins and some county school policy issues and suggested that if they felt exempt from US law, I'd be delighted to let a court instruct them on the matter.

Never got a formal reply but the lower admin types got sacked, policies got re-written and some paperwork got "lost". This also covered a couple of "zero tolerance" issues.

Maybe if I'd filed a tile 83 suit, I wouldn't have to work for a living......on the other hand, it probably still wouldn't have come to trial, so I'd still be working for a living to pay the blood sucking litigator.

WR Moore
Friday, November 16, 2007, at 02:15:30 (ZULU)

Gents,

Everyone is paying close attention to who is going to be the "second" in the presidential race. A Romney/Huckabee ticket might be good for the Republicans. For the Democrats I'm not sure. As noted, Hillary has pissed on or off just about everyone credible. So, on the long shot ticket I think it will be a Hillary/Pelosi ticket for the demo's. Now there is a scary thought.

Have decided not to sweat the politically correct school administrators. What goes around comes around and they are putting their personal agendas ahead of policy and law. W.R. Moore has the right idea, methinks. Good on ya!

Last of my lathe tooling showed up today. Am now officially ready to "make chips". I've seven actions all in need of barreling, stocking, etc. Have to decide which project gets priority and move ahead. Yes, it will probably be a .308...I'm so predictable...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 02:49:06 (ZULU)

AR10

What are you guys using for reloads in your AR10's?

I run accross a DPMS LR308T for sale here locally.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 10:17:06 (ZULU)

Click my name for a sneak peek at Remington's new AR

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 15:31:47 (ZULU)

Gents,

The new Stevens model 200 in .270 is a winner so far.

This rifle is essentially a Savage 110 (long action for .270), and very close to my old 110FP. Metal finish is not as nice, the barrel and action are nicely turned but NOT polished. The stock is the same as any other Savage rifle, flex and all, except it is grey rather than black. Barrel is what I would call a light sporter. The rifle is very light and has a nice balance with optics installed. Since this is a light duty rifle, I used weaver two piece picatinny style bases and dual cap rings (aluminum) and one of the new Simmons by Meade scopes, a 3x9x40. I have been curios to try one since Meade bought them out and revamped the line.

The weaver bases have one cross slot each, and it's more toward one end of the base than the other. Even with the bases installed so the cross slots are both close to the ejection port, the scope is too short to fit. My dremel is broken, so I very carefully used a bench grinder to grind a 45 degree bevel in the bottom and one cap of the ring to clear the objective bell, and touched them up before installing. Locktite was used on the bases of course.

The "Simmons by Meade" scope is pretty well made. Glass is better than any other "budget" scope I've seen (and I've seen plenty). It's actually pretty nice, but not as nice as the Nikon Buckmaster that will eventually replace it. The seals on this scope are TIGHT. Both turrets AND the power ring take quite a bit of effort to turn. The turrets themselves are finger adjustable (nice) but slightly mushy (not nice), and that was also exacerbated by the cold when I got out to the range as well. While there was NO slop in between clicks, it also seemed that it took a shot or two for adjustments to settle in. That made me unhappy.

Without even boresighting, first shot at 50 yards was proper elevation and 2" to the left. After a barrel clean and the first adjustment to the right, the next shot was a direct hit in the center of the bullseye. I moved back to 100 yards and fired 3 more shots and cleaned between each one, then fired three three shot groups and cleaned in between each group in an abbreviated break in, tweaking zero as I went. Ammo used was Remington factory 130 grain CoreLokt.

Bottom line.....for each cleaning, the first patch came out dirty, the second one clean. Proper follow through seems to have more impact with such a light rifle. The rifle and cartridge combo doesn't recoil very much, the solid rubber buttpad is just fine. Final three shot group was .7" from one end to the other, with the middle shot in the center of the 1" bullseye. I'm happy with it. I will bed an aluminum channel in the forearm and put a Nikon on it this winter, and will have a do anything capable hunting rifle for under $500. And you have to like that.

Time for a nap!!!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, November 16, 2007, at 17:24:33 (ZULU)

CDC', I looked at a S&W M&P carbine yesterday, pretty nice. I like the price, too. The LEO price, that is. The full retail put it in the range of some really high-end AR's, which means I probably won't go with the S&W. They're pretty proud of that machine.

Rock River (RRA) has some really nice carbines in the sub $900 range. Bushy has a nice lineup, as well.

For those with carbines, do you prefer the 'round' fore end with fixed front sight, or the quad-rail with flip-up BUIS? Nice thing about the quad-rail is ... plenty of places to hang fuzzy dice. :8--)

Duman
Friday, November 16, 2007, at 20:30:32 (ZULU)

Have any of you gotten to thoroughly wring out the Sig 556 yet? So far, I've only gotten to fondle them, but they're definitely on my wish list.

Travis Morgan
Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 01:58:49 (ZULU)

Youse guys have the schools you tolerate. At a local high school, a young, attractive, English teacher was discussing "advanced sexual theory and practice" during her classes. Some of the kids told there parents, who told other parents, a large majority demanded the teacher be fired. They were told by the school board that she could not be fired. The parents transfered there children to the next school nearby. When the school got to the point they would no longer transfer because it would bring their enrolment below the level to stay open. The remaining parents HOME SCHOOLED there children for the rest of the year. The school closed, the young teacher lost her job ...along with the beurocrats that defended her.

In my daughters high school the choir sings a lot of christian and patriotic songs (like yours did thirty years ago). A student asked the choir director why, he said because the constitution says we can!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 03:39:11 (ZULU)

Duman: Check out "Stag Arms".

CDC'
Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 03:59:11 (ZULU)

Geoff;

You can try stiffening the forend if you want to but I believe you will find that the flax point in those stocks is at the recoil lug pocket. Not much can be done to make a permanent improvement since the flex will simply move to the point of where you stopped. The best and easiest thing to do ig get an aftermarket stock like the Bell & Carlson. These are actually rather affordable and can be had in a variety of color and camo. Weight is a little more than the factory plastic but the balance is good. They also come with a Pachmayr (sp?) Decelerator pad on them (used to anyway).

All;

After having read the posts of the last few weeks, y'all make me happy I live where I do!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 07:10:16 (ZULU)

Hillary should be in prison for this. Why isn't she? Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 09:52:30 (ZULU)

CDC' - Thanks for the pointer, I'll take a look.

Travis, an evaluation of the SIG-556 is in the latest issue of "American Rifleman". And what the heck are you doing up at that whacky hour?

Duman
Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 11:56:10 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan: Good video. I C&P the link and spammed my family and friends with it.

Bill and Hill are characters straight out of "I Claudius". The book is worth your time. You'll never see the world in the same way.

Click my name.

CDC'
Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 15:11:50 (ZULU)

Littel Help for old memory

A while back I was sent some rings made by "OPS" and really liked them. Now of course I have lost contact information and can not find it. Can someone help

They are on East Coast, NJ I believe.

Thanks

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 17:48:15 (ZULU)

Maybe this is the outfit you're looking for.

http://www.opsgear.com/category-s/377.htm

John
WI, - Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 18:15:12 (ZULU)

No thats not it.

This man worked for FN and makes high dollar stuff. Machnes everything himself. Price point is probably at top of heap based on the rings he sent me.

Mike/Undude

I had a comp glich and lost some contact info.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 18:29:38 (ZULU)

Undude - I can't help with your search, but sure would be interested if it turns out that this shop is in fact in NJ.. I might do a recon trip if it's close to me. Please keep us posted what you find

medicjim
Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 19:08:47 (ZULU)

Gents, this Howa M1500 .308 in the green hogue stock is a winner. The Nikko-Sterling nighteater that came on it sits on a shelf, replaced by the old loopy VariXII 3-9 tactical. I feel better using that loopy, since the Nikko scope has a side focus designed for airgun ranges (it might be a decent scope for my 10/22 crow sniper, freeing up a 6x M8 for other uses).

First thing you notice is that the trigger is fantastic out of the box. I haven't gauged it, but can compare it to my GAP rille's trigger: This one breaks clean at or around 3 lbs, with just a hint of overtravel. There is no creep or rough spots. It just breaks the shot. I like it.

I shot a small variety of ammo and all at 100 yards--no time to really work on this since I was also breaking in the barrel and looking for the best hunting round with a few days to go. I settled quickly on two loads from hornaday as good-to-go for this stick: 165 TAP for precision work, and 150 SSTs for whitetails. These both go to the same zero settings, with the tap's best 5 (I was cleaning the barrel alot here) 0.8" wide by 0.9" tall---meaning I could probably try harder for an honest .75 MOA. Not bad for a sporter barrel under 20 rounds. Everything else shoots low, under these factory offerings. Now by low, I mean like 6" lower for 168 FGM, and 7" lower for Bravo's 175s. Remmy green box 150s shot 8" low and all over the place, and a federal 165 ballistic tip also shot lower for me, between the sierra stuff (IIRC). I suppose, after deer season, I have to actually get better representations for the loads and the rifle's groups with each at various ranges to 500 (regardless of POI deviations from POA). That way, I'll find out if the hornaday with current zero is the best way to go, or if one of the "low rounds" actually groups better and another hunting load will duplicate it.

I zeroed with this TAP load right off (figured it would be accurate stuff)--and was suprised that only one other load stayed up with it--literally. It is just as well, as these both shoot great groups.

My intitial observation: This gun is particular about bullet weights/ MV differences. I dunno about the TAP powders and velocities, but this stuff doesn't drop like anything else I had on the shelf (except the SSTs, which had a 1.1" average grouping--I forgot to mention that). All other 150s and heaviers shot lower, like a lot lower! And, the TAP felt "different" to the shoulder, like it has a little more snap into the shoulder. I wonder if this load isn't along the lines of what they call light-magnum loads. That would explain why this 165 stayed up with the 150s, and the hornaday hit higher than all other comers...still, it was wierd. My other 308s do not seem to mind changes of weights as much.

I am looking forward to ringing this riffle out after deer season:)

Oh, and Undude: I put one of your slings on it! It is a great product...and now i need more; just to always have a spare. FWIW, Angie loves hers too.

Joe M
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 05:03:30 (ZULU)

Joe:

If you had a chronograph you could measure the velocity of some of the loads :-) I'm using the Chrony, which is not a top-end product but does the job fine.

Sure about that Hornady TAP loading projectile weight?

This is what I could find for Hornady TAP .308 Win loadings available for sale to the general public:

308 WIN 110 GR TAP - FPD #80898 - 3165 fps

308 WIN 155 GR TAP - FPD #80928 - 2785 fps

308 WIN 168 GR TAP - FPD #80968 - 2700 fps

Those are all pretty standard SAAMI spec muzzle velocities for each of the projectile weights.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 19, 2007, at 07:40:13 (ZULU)

Rod, too bad for the general public then. This stuff shoots per-t good:))

It is 165gr Hornady TAP/ barrier (product code 80995, Lot#3050673) Law enforcement ammunition; I thought it odd for the 165s and not 168s--but I double-checked the box before posting that! So I guess I have a source for near-unobtanium bullets for play. BTW, i get them cheaper than the over-priced FGM 168s. But not quite as cheap as the BHs 168 match.

a chrono is on the short list of must-haves. Spending must be metered to fly under the nag-threshold, else I'd already have one.

Joe M
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 08:13:09 (ZULU)

Joe, glad to hear you folks like the slings. Makes me feel good to know folks like them.

Question on the Houge stock. I have been thinking of hunting rig stock and wondered about these? Is green available for 700SA with Varmint Taper bbl?

Undude/Mike

Please some one help me on the OPS Rings thing.

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, November 19, 2007, at 14:45:39 (ZULU)

JoeM,

"a chrono is on the short list of must-haves. Spending must be metered to fly under the nag-threshold, else I'd already have one."

LMAO!! Would that be flying under "Nag-dar" ?

Duman
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 16:04:28 (ZULU)

never mind on search I found it.

For Medic and others

Marc Wollman V/P

OPERATIONAL PRODUCTS SUPPLY & SERVICES

1545 RT 37 West STE 6

Toms River NJ 08755

732/286-9868 ph

732/286-9869 fax

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, November 19, 2007, at 19:25:33 (ZULU)

Undude: They do, but the ones I've seen are "DM"---not sure if it will take standard bottom metal or not. Two versions of the green overmold stock: One is pillars only in a plastic base--with a foreend that has the same wiggle as a savage composite at 160 bucks, then they offer the full aluminum bedding block (foreend too) that stiffens it up for 290 bucks. That is MSRP--you will be able to find them cheaper!

Edited to add: If you have a few weeks, you nay want to see how my cheap-hogue fixer project works out. First I need to find out the thickness of the overmolding rubber---cause i want to mill away a sliver alongside the right fore end barrel channel as it seems to lean in onto the barrel slightly on the bipod. I figure I can mill away a touch inside and cure that without tearing it up. Also, once the deer season ends, i will pull the action and see what lies beneath. If I can hawg out a small channel, I may place a rod into the stock dead center of the barrel channel, perhaps by arcing the the front end of the channel away from the "touching" area so to add slight pressure away from that contact patch--while stiffening the front a bit. Think of rebar in bedding compound here. And, if the rubber isn't flimsey and all around messy to deal with or otherwise in the way, a bedding job would be nice just for fun. That way, this 159 dollar version will end up with the features of the 290 dollar stock. Much depends on what lies beneath, and how that rubber overmolding is coated on. If it is a thin layer that will "roll away" from any cuts--then all bets are off. But if it is just a chuck of rubber with no stretching--then i might get away with the modifications.

And if I ruin it--I can always upgrade to the stiffer version:) I made a decent trade, at lower than average retail prices (not at wholesale, so the dealer got a good deal too) for this rifle. So, in my mind I am at liberty to try things without feeling a pinch in the wallet.

Geoff M did a mod to his savage stock to cure the same ills. At best, I will also save a little weight--at worst, I end up with the heavier stock that is better.

All this just because I want to lean on it off the 'pod and be sure that the stock isn't leaning on the barrel:))

Joe M
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 20:47:18 (ZULU)

Lito'-san,

Looks like they got the guy that did the smasn-n-grab at your favorite dealer's shop.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-ctnewguns1116.artnov16,0,1024646.story

Duman
Monday, November 19, 2007, at 23:12:04 (ZULU)

Duman...

Yup, that's them. They have big blue tarps covering the front of the store, and you go in like going into a tent ;)

Since there's still no front on the store, they have 24 hour "armed" (Duh) guards in the place.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 03:17:21 (ZULU)

Click. Damn interesting gun. Would be awesome for cats or carp from a kayak.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 04:44:05 (ZULU)

I'm in lust! This would be damn handy, mounted vertically right behind my hip, on my saddle. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 09:55:26 (ZULU)

How do you fellas think the above configuration would work chambered in .480 or .454? Something similar woulda been handy back in my packin' and guidin' days, I think. It would have at least been reassuring.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 14:10:47 (ZULU)

Travis...

You Definitely have too much time on your hands ;)))

I'm gonna be kinda scarce for the next two months - trial date is January 10th through the 15th.

It's looking real good for me, but I have a ton of work to do... I have to make up files, anticipate who their witnesses are going to me (this is not a pre-discovery trial, surprise (aka ambush) witnesses are allowed... and I have a few HA!)

So, I may peep in from time to time... but not too much.

You guys have a great Thanksgiving and Christmas - I'll see you on Jan 16th.

And love the hell out of your family and especially your kidlets... all the rest in life is meaningless in the end.

All prayers are welcome.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 14:54:02 (ZULU)

'lito, best of luck with the trial and may the Holidays be the merriest!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 15:01:37 (ZULU)

Lito, We will miss you, but you have more important things to take care of. I pray everything will turnout just as you desire. Hope you have good holidays even though you are under pressure.

HDR
OK, - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 15:48:56 (ZULU)

Lito: Count on my families prayers for yours and Ruggus's success. Wish I had more to offer!

Joe M
Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 16:11:20 (ZULU)

'lito,

Count me in too. You'll be in our prayers.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 17:27:53 (ZULU)

Best of luck to you, 'Lito, and hold steadfast in the the belief in the ultimate rightness of your cause!

And remember that revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 18:11:37 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Prayers said!

SSG Mac
Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 20:23:51 (ZULU)

Good luck Lito!

SSG Mac, email inbound. (Youth Rifle Program)

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 23:05:09 (ZULU)

Good luck Lito!

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 00:24:46 (ZULU)

JLU

Reply inbound

SSG Mac
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 00:41:17 (ZULU)

Gents,

'Lito, our prayer's and thoughts will be with you and rugratus during the court proceedings. Sounds like you have a good op plan and if I know you several back ups! I almost pity the opposition and those folks that did you wrong early in the proceedings.

If you get the chance remember; "Never do your enemy a small injury".

When the second elk season ended there had been ten elk taken in the area I hunt. One was a 4X5 Bull. The locals used massive amounts of people, radios, etc. to effect that success. That's not hunting, IMHO. Next season one of my partners and I are going into the wilderness area further west to get away from this type of thing.

Lindy, whatever happended on your 6.5 project? Did I miss something during my absence?

Doctors still will not clear me to return to duty. Probably several more weeks. They want the orthopedic specialist to make an assessment first. This sucks goggles...

Just realized it's only 3 months until the State Sniper Championship. Time to get cracking.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 03:52:55 (ZULU)

Lito,

Despite our disagreement I sincerely wish you only the best in your efforts with and for your son. My prayers will be with you.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 05:09:11 (ZULU)

In this vid a guy gets tased by a cop. I'd like to get some comments from cops.

CDC'
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 10:21:40 (ZULU)

Lito.

Hammer "em" hard Prayers are with you.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 10:57:57 (ZULU)

'Lito- good luck on the legal stuff.

Happy Turkey Day to all, I'll be working.

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 12:17:38 (ZULU)

Wes: Perhaps you're thinking of someone else - I've never had a 6.5mm project.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 12:32:19 (ZULU)

Lito You got the prayers, good luck with the case & keep us posted.

Joe M Just read the stock stiffening ideas. I don't know why but rebar in a gun although a great idea just sounds hillarius. Can you long drill the stock from the front all the way to the bedding block with something like an "installers bit" and insert the rebar that way? I'm not sure if the bits are made that large, my largest is only 9/16 but they are that long. The roughness of the rebar would give it good gripping action inside the drilled hole.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 14:23:27 (ZULU)

CDC: I think the trooper was a little quick on the trigger with the Taser. Yeah, the driver was being snotty. Yeah, he refused to sign the ticket. In my experience, though, once you explain to people that the ticket is their promise to appear in court where they can explain to the judge, and that REFUSAL to sign the ticket means they go DIRECTLY in front of the judge, they usually sign. 30 seconds of explanation would probably have sufficed. There's a world of difference between questioning and disobedience. Once an American citizen is ever afraid of questioning the police, bad things are afoot. I had this conversation with a brand new rookie just yesterday. I told him that talk, talk, talk was better than fight, fight, fight anyday. The trooper should have spent a few more seconds explaining the ramifications of NOT signing to the driver.

Which brings me to the second thing. What's up with the present trend of giving EVERY officer a Taser? And having them carry it around on the Bat belt? Maybe I'm old, and out of touch, but it seems to me that we're allowing the new kids to get out of touch with what it means to use force on citizens. If you have to actually go mano a mano with someone for a law enforcement reason, it tends to make you rely more on your skills of reason and verbal persuasion. I'm seeing the Taser being used for reasons I find disturbing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they never be used, but the current crop of youngsters seem to be using them because they just don't want to fight someone; it allows them to coerce compliance from a stand-off distance. I don't carry a Taser. I don't want one. I'll spend 15 minutes, or more, trying to persuade someone to comply (especially on something as mundane and harmless as a speeding ticket) with what I want them to do. If that fails, I'm prepared to crack open a new carton of South Tejas jihad on them if I have to. And most folks can see that, if you mean it.

In short, he overrreacted.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 14:49:53 (ZULU)

Charles S.-you missed the most important/worst part after "fight, fight, fight". Write, write, write. Then there's the obligatory visit to the local ER, possibly for both of you.

Come to think of it, there's also lawyer, lawyer, lawyer:))))))

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 15:15:54 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt,

I agree, explanation of the process might have helped.

However, the guy didn't seem to shut up long enough for the officer to get a word in edgwise. The guy, to me, appeared to be acting irrationally. With all the whacky things/people that officers have to encounter, I can't find fault with the officer. Questioning an officer is one thing, which is what occurred, but refusing to listen to an answer and ignoring instructions (intended to keep everyone safe) is completely different.

Having NO experience, I'm in no position to pass judgement. I think I would rather have the guy tasered than have one, both, or all three of them in the hospital (the wife was a wildcard). My opinion only.

My apologies if this offends anyone's sensibilities. I shall now take cover....

Duman
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 16:21:34 (ZULU)

Catman, prayers sent for you to win big. Will be thinking of you.

Should have some big news at Shot Show this year. New products, branching into other sniper areas. Come see me and say hello.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 16:46:16 (ZULU)

Jeff C: I am not using real rebar (hahahaha)---that is just an example of the concept. The foreend is wiggly now, and if I can dig a channel in the bottom center of the barrel channel without ruining the stock, then I will inlay a small aluminum spar, maybe a angled piece of flat stock, and then use bedding compound to bury it and re-conour the channel to original specs. It is all contingent on what lies beneath that rubber coating though. Basically, I am trying to get the performance of the higher-end stock (full length aluminum bedding block) out of the low end (pillars in plastic) one that came with this rifle. Besides, it is the perfect practice at bedding--if i screw up, I end up where I am now---needing to spend money for something a bit better. Although I had thought of drilling in from the front and tossing a rod in. Too problematic though.

Back to the field for hunting ops. Geoff came up again to try his hand. We stayed up late cleaning guns...and drinking experimental bloody marys. For some reason, the morning hunt time-frame was a miserable experience. Perhaps gun-cleaning is not a good idea the night before a hunt?

Joe M
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 19:39:36 (ZULU)

Chuck, I think we handle that a bit better in NC. At least we did. I hope it hasn't changed. The signiture there only showed that the violator was given a copy. If they refused, we were told to write REFUSED on the space given and let the Judge see that they refused.

Most "frequent flyers" learned.

Yeah, I think he was fast in the trigger too. I bet he leads his squad in "resist and delay" charges. I hate the type.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 21:37:56 (ZULU)

Lito

Good luck and Godspeed!

Pat II
Wednesday, November 21, 2007, at 21:44:52 (ZULU)

Lito:

Best of luck in your upcoming challenge!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 00:09:25 (ZULU)

That cop was just being a dick. Get the guy out of the car, have him park it on your hood for a minute, while you get in the car and do "something" for a minute or two and decompress. THEN get out and explain about signing the ticket. If necessary, cuff him.

There was absolutely no reason for the officer to escalate the situation. He's supposed to be the professional on the scene.

As for the widespread over? use of tasers, it seems that a lot of bigger departments are hiring mouthy little chickenshits, not bothering to teach them anything, not teaching them to shoot or how to fight, then turning them loose. Those cowards seem to love their tasers.

Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 02:50:24 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving Hawgs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally got through with prepping for the frying of the bird. Time for some eggnog and hit the sack.

One more match left this year then I start playing with 22's and stuff that has set silent in the safe for a long time. I found a Marlin 444 hiding in the back of the safe that I haven't shot since I bought it.

If you are traveling, stay safe! Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 03:05:04 (ZULU)

Bolt,

I was gonna fry our bird, too ....... until I saw they wanted $28 for 3 gallons of oil! That's just bullshit. Too bad I can't fry it in 10-30!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 03:09:05 (ZULU)

Saw the video and as a guy who read training reports and decided who did right and who did wrong. This is simple. The Officer F'D UP HUGE.

Force is usually taught in levels:

Verbal commands

Control Holds/hands on

Baton/Chemical weapons/Taser

Deadly force

Now based on what I saw I see a huge problem with a lack of verbal commands ordering suspect what to do.

He jumps to Taser past controls with no justification

You can jump levels but you have to have damm good reason to.

A man walking away and you tasering him without warning equals huge money for the suspect in end and probable job loss for Officer.

What an embarrassment to all LE Officers active and retired (like me)

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 04:20:07 (ZULU)

Travis, there you go again. It's not enough that we disagree with the officer in what he did. But, by calling the majority of the cops "chickenshits", you lose any credibility and the privilege of conversing with adults about the pros and cons of use of force on American citizens. You're just a mouthy little punk that hates cops and will take any opportunity to badmouth a profession that you so obviously know not a damned thing about. Grow up before you presume to speak in adult circles about adult topics. Here's your assignment for the day. Walk up to any police officer and spout off your juvenile opinions in the same way you regurgitate them on this site. Get back with us and let us know how it turned out. Preferrably by sending a copy of your booking slip.....

Still, the officer, in my opinion, jumped the gun. Even the most obnoxious traffic offender is usually susceptible to a calm, even demeanor and a reasoned explanation of what is coming if they don't comply. As long as we remember that we exercise our authority with the consent of those we excercise it on, most cases will turn out all right. A traffic offense is just that, a minor traffic matter. As long as no one got hurt, there's no sense in making a big deal of it. Let's even go so far as to suppose that the offender got in his car and sped away. Do you try to grab him, up the ante and get someone hurt over speeding. Nope. Get the license plate and file on him at large for it. It's not worth getting anyone hurt over. Training and experience will show him this.

Y'all have a wonderfull Thanksgiving day, love your family and spend as much time as you can with them.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 05:19:24 (ZULU)

Charles,

As usual, you ignored all of a post to focus on a pecieved insult.

If you go back and read objectively, you'll see that I never called the majority of cops chickenshits. I was talking about a lot of the scrawny little pricks that seem to be getting hired anymore.

Apparently, they'd rather hire a kid with a liberal arts degree and its attendant liberal way of thinking than some ole boy from the sticks with some common sense, that is big enough to write a parking ticket without having to taser everyone in the vicinity for "officer safety". It seems that (rightly, in my mind) they used to hire bigger guys, just so they wouldn't have to fight as often. I guess it's just the way of the world, now. Replace strength, intelligence, and ability with technology and a talking head with an ego.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 05:45:13 (ZULU)

Click. Any of you ever played with one of these?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 06:05:06 (ZULU)

Travis, no one wants to be a cop anymore. Pay is crap and you deal with AH's all day. Easier way to make living and frankly most of public treats you like crap. Go sign up and make a difference. I did my 25 and now see the public getting what it asked for after Rodney King. Us bruisers are all but gone. Bring back good pay Quit crapping on us and new great guys will come out and do the job.

By the way am I the only man in America that knows Rodney Kind could have been white, green or clear and gotten same results after crap he pulled? Some dudes just eed thier butts kicked and he was one of them.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 06:18:41 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm thankful to all of those over there, making sure I can be over here, being a fat, lazy, thankful American.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 10:18:09 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving !!!!!!!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 13:04:13 (ZULU)

While I echo the sentiments for a Happy Thanksgiving, I think it's a little sad that we reserve a single day per year to consider and be thankful for all that we have.

I suspect we'd all benefit from considering those many blessings the first thing each day after we woke up, including, but not limited to, the fact that we did wake up.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 14:28:48 (ZULU)

It's Thanksgiving Day, my fave. I woke up this morning, which is a good enough reason to give thanks to God, my Maker and Creator, author of this awesome universe. I am here because He saw fit to give me life, and whatever happens, I know it's for a reason. So, I'm thankful. I've been around the world, several times, and everything I've seen convinces me that we are the most blessed, comfortable and abundant nation in the history of the world. Thank you, Lord, for giving this to us, and thank you for good family, friends, and acqaintances with which we can share our love of ballistics. Give us, this day, a good day to enjoy the gifts we have, and help us to remember where, and from Whom, we get them.

Here endeth the sermon. Offering plates are at the doors on the way out....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 15:51:32 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Happy Thanksgiving.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The snow covered Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 16:05:49 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Americans have much to be thankful for. As my dad used to say; "We cut a fat hog."

Cops: Thanks for the comments. It's good to know that you don't agree with that piss-ant little bully tazing that guy, terrorizing his pregnant wife and doing an illegal search.

Pablo: Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of thier women.

CDC'
Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 16:18:40 (ZULU)

Still on this side of the grass. Lots to be thankful for. Happy Thanksgiving!

Hank
Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 16:59:07 (ZULU)

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!

Anyone: Does anyone have any experience with removing the spacer in the magazine "not removable box" to make more room for longer OAL cartridges in a Win M70? If removed have you had any feeding problems? Should I just buy another, or are there any problems with just removing the metal spacer?

What's everyones opinion on the most accurate .308 cal hunting bullets. I'm using 180grn Accubonds in my 300RUM but would like to know your experiences with lighter bullets "150-170" for the 308win. Feel free to continue E-mailing me with your favorite loads for the 308win. I'm building a pretty good load refrence sheet. I appreciate your input.

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 17:15:20 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving to all, especially those downrange.

Pat II
Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 18:18:04 (ZULU)

Gents,

Wanted to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving before the grand kids get here and the house degenerates into pandamonium. My best to all especially those who are on the tip of the spear.

Charles H., you summed it up better than I could. We are truely blessed. To bad a lot of folks think that's something to apologize for or be embarrassed about. Put me in the crowd that thinks it's something worth defending and to cherish.

Undude, you're not the only one to feel that way about the Rodney King incident. In Corrections we get to see those pieces of fecal material every day. Sad that politics, policy, or being tried in the press mean more than what is right. Management has got staff to the point where they piss all over each other and trust has gone down the tube. You're right, why would anyone want to make a career in Law Enforcement? I used to think it was to make a difference, but have come to realize that in most cases we are not allowed too. Sad.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving. Didn't mean to make that a rant, but the frustration comes out all to often. My bad.

Joe M., The new Shotgun News has an article about Howa's new recoil reducing rifle. Basically, the Howa Model 1500 in a Knoxx Action Stock. Might not be a bad idea if you ever get feeling wimpy. Personally, if someone is recoil sensitive using a .308 there's probably no hope for them...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 21:21:50 (ZULU)

Jeff...

Yup. I have done did that!

The spacer is a box that is spot welded to the back of the mag box.

First drill out the spot welds.

If you want to remove it entirely, then cut the back plate of the spacer box off... cuz you need that piece to hold the magazine box together.

You can silver solder it back on, or just use epoxy it on. Make SURE that the plate does NOT cover the notch at the back bottom of the magazine box, cuz that where the front of the trigger guard goes into.

If you silver solder it on, boil it in boiling water for 10 minutes to get the flux out, otherwise, it will rust. Then cover it in G-96 spray oil (cuz it smells real good!!).

Then put it together, and put the bolt in, and draw the bolt back until it hits the stop plate. See how much it has to go back to get to the NEW back of the magazine box... measure it!

Then remove the bolt stop plate, and with a Dremel tool, cut the stop place back (a LITTLE AT A TIME!!) so that when the bolt comes back to the stop, it goes about 1/20th" past the back of the magazine box, to insure that it pickes up a new round each time.

Use a GOOD cold blue (Brownells "Oxpho-Blue"), and touch up all the bare metal... load it up with G-96, and you are done.

I have done over 20 rifles, and it workie just fine.

Happy bird days guys. Hug your kidlets for me.

And pray for Bravo - he has 14 gallons of turkey stuffing to eat ;)))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 21:29:46 (ZULU)

Cop using a taser. That shit was just plain funny I don't care who you are. To quote Larry the Cable Guy. The knuckle head did not explain what would happen if he failed to sign the ticket. I have had one person in the last 13 years fail to sign a ticket after I splained the situation to them.

Lito Good Luck.. Dito what CDC said when he quoteth Arnold/Conan.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Hope Bolt is still smoke free.

I will be heading to the Bianchi Cup in 2008 soI shall be shooting a bunch of pistol ammo till then.

Dirty Steve...

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, November 22, 2007, at 23:29:39 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: John Milius stole the "Crush your enemies" line from Ghenghis Khan.

CDC'
Friday, November 23, 2007, at 00:32:56 (ZULU)

CDC and Dirty Steve...

Thanks guys - I'll do my best ;)

I wanna tell you bums how much your support and e-mails have meant over the last few years.

When it got dark, I had a bunch of bums to turn to - better than a lawyer anytime ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 01:24:05 (ZULU)

AR-15 Dry Firing

I recently picked up a little tool from Sinclair International, called a "Dry Firing Device". It's a little plastic insert, fits into the bolt carrier. With this device, you don't have to pull the extractor all the way back to cock the rifle. Only requires ~1/4 the retraction, which speeds up dry-firing drills. This thing works great.

Sinclair International, www.sinclairintl.com, part #14-455

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=HEARAR&item=14-455&type=store

Happy holidays to everyone.

P.S.-Regarding the tasering, I stand corrected. Thanks to those of you who serve in the military, LEO, firefighters, EMTs, or some other form of dangergous public service.

Duman
Friday, November 23, 2007, at 02:39:55 (ZULU)

Lito Thanks for the instructions. They're printed and placed in the "how to" 3 ring binder I have to keep. And once again, good luck in court.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 03:07:53 (ZULU)

Guys,

Cooked my first turkey this year. Injected it all over with a liberal application of italian dressing. Got rave reviews. Really moist.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 03:26:10 (ZULU)

To all, happy Thanksgiving! Especially those who stand guard, Mil, LEO, Fireman, EMS, ALL...

I'm still above ground and turned 65 today.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 03:43:50 (ZULU)

Jeff: You're going to have to spend money to find out. This Howa really likes the Hornady TAP 165gr (I now have TAP loads in 150 and generic 168 to play with after deer season)--and it shoots the 150gr SST Inter-Locks (light-mag varients) really well too. My SPR shoots Federal premimium 165 plastic tip thingies (WTF--I cannot remember their brand name, ballistic tips?), in fact, most of these plastic tip bullets in various weights shoot decently in a variety of my riffles. That SPR is the closest thing I have to your HV. My 300 likes the winchester talon loads in 180--but I do not shoot "heavies" in my 308s. The GAP riffle gets 175s, and that is the heaviest in the house. I now have a pile of loads to try out once my range goes hot again. But seldom will two stock rifles shoot the same loads equally; you have to feed the beasts til they like something.

Sir Wes: I don't need to dial the recoil down...not yet anyway:) I love the rgonomics as-is, but the "lean" on the fore end while on the bipod bothers me. As accurate as this 1500 is so far, I wonder if it can't be squeezed a bit harder? I figure I can try to stiffen what I have, and bed the action. If that is ruinous to the overmolding, then I spring for the higher-end hogue and start over. Its all good...

I will say that the M1500 is a sleeper decent gun, much like savage. And, a 5+1 magazine is nice too. Ya never know when you will have one of those magic moments when you tag out the whole family in one sitting:)) OK, so that has only gone down once in Alaska...but it COULD happen (or so I keep telling myself).

I had three does cross my KZ at its most constricted point this morn. I sat down lower to have a better FOV at the woodline where they were supposed to cross, but these fems were savy to the ways of the hunt. No biggie--they were heading up to my cousin over the hill from the 500 yard target. Yeah...and he misses at some 40 feet but does fell three birch saplings in the process. Oh well. But the wife shot "socks" this morning--an old buck that we have on film. Seems that his 12 point rack got lost somewhere. I couldn't help but think of Bob the Nailer knocking horns off trophies somewhere off my back forty:))

Geoff got a decent 8-pointer while here this week, so his long ass drives to and fro were worth it. The rack is average across the beam, but it projects forward very nicely. It will look good on his wall.

I am making a habit of sending deer to others. It ain't unselfishness on my part--but it might be the late season archery is still out there, and the december gun anterless season...and maybe that urge to set up a shot to remember. Whether it is a close runner swinging the slugger or a long ridge to ridge on a standing doe, I just have little interest in the family "drives" this year. I enjoy settling in alone over a trail and waiting...listening to the sounds of the woods.

Tomorrow is kids' day. Nieces and nephews, Blake and two adults to set them up. Once they get tired and cold...its my turn again:))

Happy T-day, Hawgs.

Joe M
Friday, November 23, 2007, at 05:10:45 (ZULU)

Lindy,

>I suspect we'd all benefit from considering those many blessings the first thing each day after we woke up, including, but not limited to, the fact that we did wake up.<

Some of us actually do that every day. Kinda mellows out the day.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 06:11:16 (ZULU)

Joe:

The Federal Premium plastic-tipped used the Nosler Ballistic Tips.

Jeff:

I've handloaded the 165g .308 dia Nosler Ballistic Tips in .308 Win. Excellent accuracy in my experience. The published ballistic coefficients are optimistic, but that is only an issue for really long range shooting. The Ballistic Tips have a very heavy jacket, so they're not going to "blow up" like a varmint bullet on deer-size game. The famous Jeff Cooper mentions using 150g Ballistic Tips in .308 Win for hunting whitetails.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 06:11:53 (ZULU)

Happy Thanksgiving hawgs. I have to agree with Chuck Hunt and Lindy. Good posts.

Don't listen to Joe, who suddenly got all modest and stuff. I don't know anybody else within driving range that I can drink and talk guns and politics with that makes any sense....most everybody else just looks at me funny :-)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 07:13:27 (ZULU)

Joe: Just lay Accraglass down the inside of the handguard as deep as you can and still free-float the barrel. Worked for me. YMMV. Also, I drilled a hole in the stock and bedding a bit closer to the mag well than the factory position. Gets the weight off the end of the stock, which reduces the bending moment, and also changes the geometry to allow faster movement of the muzzle in case the Talib--, um, deer, starts moving and you need to adjust.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 15:40:17 (ZULU)

Joe & Rod Trust me, I know how you feel when words and names escape vocublary. Accubonds are supposed to be the "match" version of the ballistic tip as far as QC goes, but in a heavy game not varimt. I think Balistic tips are probably the way to go also. That's what I load in my 300RUM. I was thinking like you guys, and Jeff"dean"Cooper about using 150's maybe the 165's if they'll group. I'm pretty sure if I play with powders and weights I can get them to group. Actually gonna give the "Ladder Test" a try along with my normal load and shoot 3 going up by 2/10 grn increments. It'll be something fun to do. I haven't had to work a new load since I got the 300 3 years ago. Do you guys know of anyone shooting them any farther than 500 out to 1000 or so in a 308win. I'm curios if they would also make a decent target round compared to SMK's and the others. I'll hunt with factory ammo, probably the Win 165 ballistic silver tip, this year till I manage to shoot up my Lake City Match practicing and have cases to reload. And I already have 2 boxes of it. If anyone wants the Win cases when I'm done they're welcome to them. Actually Monica will hunt with it. and she's not going to shoot over 250yds.

On the setting others up for kills on hunts, I get just as great a sense of accomplishment when they get their animal as if I get it myself. I've got a friend that I've hunted with since fraternity days in college. He doesn't have places of his own to hunt or the time to scout. I've set him up with some wall hangers including a 19 point non-typical that I had been watching all summer from the plane when spraying the bean fields around where he feed. I had him patterened down to the minute. My other buddy asked me why "give deer like that away"? I told him if it's not big enough to go on the wall, his wife doesn't let him kill them. And, My Personal Opinion, I think non-typicals are UGLY so I didn't want it on my wall. He loves it along with the other 4 typicals I put him on.

Thanks for the info, good luck with your hunts, and sorry for rambeling.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 16:20:43 (ZULU)

I wonder how many of you guys are like me on this day. Every year I am the bad guy in the house cause I don't wish to go to San Antonio or any other city on Black Friday He He.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 17:09:54 (ZULU)

Rod, thanks for the reminder. I haven't bought these in a long time (still a ten-tree or four laying about). During construction of the gun room all extraneous ammo boxes went to the burn pit:)) The trees are sharpie-marked with minimal info: Fed, 165s, 308 etc. Ha, but not who makes the projectiles! It seemd to me at the time I could google it...but we all now know that I am too lazy to do so.

Also during the construction, the wife saw 20 or so little boxes, all containing "brass." So she figured one medium sized box is easier to store off to the side. Yep. Dumped it all in. If I can beat my laziness, I may have to re-sort all that mess. At least the Lap, Hornady and BHs 308 and rem 260 was bagged or cased and avoided this conjumbulation.

Charles: Once you retire, you ought to consider an article here on that bedding job: maybe take a few digital pics and label the mods on a photo shop style program. A DiTY bedding, with fore end work added and extra glass toward the mag (that works) is not the usual how-to we see day in and day out. I dunno about anyone else, but I'd read it.

My ex did get tired of son free-loading, and he skipped out and showed up on my door step. His clock is running. I am helping him find work (ain't easy due to a total lack of experience and summer jobs of 90 day or less duration as a resume). And, it is infringing on my scrap yard crawling (targets). He insists he is going to join the military, but is still wanting to do so in the spring. My feeling is that he is freaked out about the war. It was all cool and glory while in the abstract...but now it is staring him in the face and he is scared shitless. This is a problem, because I kinda had the same reservations---with only the cold war to stare at. And yeah, once in the service, this prospect of war is never "oh boy! can't wait!" either; it sends chills each and every time. So, how do I walk him thru these thoughts? My tipping point came thru my bad behavior as a deliquent---I'd rather he avoids that path.

Next project (other than ridding myself of this roommate by padding some recruiter's quota) is to install steel hangers from 300 to 800 yards, along with two new permanent firing points. My JD4020 will provide target berms as backdrops too--which allows for a few extra target locations that I have so far avoided due to a lack of backdrop. Terrain dictates that which the wife hasn't placed off limits for bullet paths (if not for her, I'd have an honest thou). I already share space with pasture (have to corral horses before each session, but they do come when called by name). Ah, if only everything was so simple as this problem.

MORGUE: Sent email replies. You get them??? Also, I have two nieces in 'Diego. One is an intel squiddie, the other is just hangin' with sis starting in January. Figured you or your compadres might...errr, heheh....offline discussion.

Joe M
Friday, November 23, 2007, at 17:19:24 (ZULU)

Jim: I waved off a trip to Corpus on the same basis. We want to go see the movie "No Country for Old Men" - but that will wait until people go back to work on Monday, which we don't.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 17:39:36 (ZULU)

Well, I sure dodged a bullet this morning. My wife had to work today, and my daughter tells me that last night she and a friend were talking about wanting to go to the freaking mall today!!! I'm thinking OH HELL NO. Then I got to thinking, what's one afternoon, I can use it to practice thinking about what I'd do if someone went nuts in a mall, which may be me if I'm going today.

Anyway, thank God, her friend couldn't make it. We're now on our way to the local range to shoot pistols, and may be carbines. Thank you God.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 19:35:28 (ZULU)

Joe, your killing me. Back in early 1980s I bought a Pak'd, matte oil finished nice walnut stocked, Howa sniper rifle for next to nothing. I kept awhile and then let it go. Man I want that rifle back. Looked, felt and shot like a USMC M40. I was young and dumb and did not understand who cares its nota Remington it shoots like a BR rifle.

Now one day I will trip into one and call it mine.

Last week I tripped intoa Grendel Folding sniper rifle built on Sako action and am waiting for it to go into the never to be sold rifle colelction. Been looking for one of these for ten years.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 19:52:21 (ZULU)

Jeff:

I'm running the Lapua 155g Scenar w/moly in .308 Win with a caseful of Varget for my long range loading. We have an 800 meter range locally. Velocity in my barrel around 2835 ft/sec, 45.5g Varget (1999 lot). I have to vibrate the powder charge to get it to compact enough to fit properly. Running Lapua brass, Winchester LR primers. Using around .005 thou jump to throat, Obermeyer chamber in a Mike Rock 5R brl. (Savage 110).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 22:09:25 (ZULU)

I've heard most sniper/long distance scoped are fixed 10X. Why not fixed 20X or variable power. Does it have to do with the Mil-Dot calculations? What should I be buying for long distance shooting?

HAM

Dick Hammaker
Burke, VA, USA - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 23:15:24 (ZULU)

Ham,

Try to find a target at 500 yards on 20X. Your FOV will be shit. They're fine for targets, but a bitch for scanning.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 23, 2007, at 23:54:39 (ZULU)

Dick: Marine Corps snipers have transitioned from fixed 10s to a 3-12 variable with a first focal-plane reticle, so that the reticle may be used for holdovers, holdunders, wind holds, and moving target leads at any magnification. Most military snipers are doing something similar.

I think the best power range for tactical shooting is about a 4-16 variable with a FFP reticle. That way you can dial way down for close targets, to about 8X which is close to optimum for low-light use with or without night vision gear, and up to max power for long-distance targets.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 00:33:12 (ZULU)

I did OK with a 4 power once when it was scored for keeps. It wasn't the reticle placement that caused the follow up. It was them nasty ass mountain breezes.

Lately, my power ring is frozen on 3x.

Magnification is over rated mostly. It will magnify the good, the bad and the ugly equally. FFP is a great idea in any case, though I am wishing loopy still made those 6x M8 mildot scopes--for the same reason the 10x fixed was such a standard for so long:

Fixed scopes were always more robust and simple---nice features for a billy club (rough handling is the only certainty for Mil rifles). The latest stuff in variables have caught up in durability lately, and the move to these is underway. I saw a bunch of the 4-14x MKIVs in Iraq--and "you name it" variables in the 'stan where you once saw only ultras. SB PMII and their little straight tube scopes were prevelant too.

For me, I realized that my eyes faded away from the factory focus settings on the ocular rather late in that game. It was a slow fade that I failed to notice for ever--and when I finally tuned the focus, I no longer need power to overcome the "problem" I was having. I can shuck my glasses and shoot x's on 3x all day long. The difference was (is) amazing--and so was the number of turns I used to get it right. Man...if cranking to the edge of the housing is indicative--my eyes now officially suck! Bottom line is that I only need full power to mil (though I have a correction in place on my M3LR and NF for mid points). I oughta measure up another for the 3-9 too. It would be cool to have ready conversions for 3x on my hunting stick. I got the holdovers calc'd at 9x, but what good is it if I ain't there?

Joe M
Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 01:57:17 (ZULU)

Joe: I have one of the Leupold 4.5-14X50M1 with a Premier Gen II reticle in it. It's my favorite Leupold scope for tactical shooting.

When Schmidt & Bender first came out with the 5-25X56, I saw it at the SHOT Show, and fell in lust - it's got better glass than any spotting scope I've seen.

But after shooting around here for about 6 months thereafter, I noticed that I pretty much never turned my power ring about 13, and shot most stuff from 700 yards and in on about 10 - so I saved myself three grand.

I think the S&B 4-16X50 is just about perfect.

More game - and more people - have been shot with 4X scopes than anything else.

And, then, of course, there was that crafty Fin, Simo Hayha, who whacked 540 Russians with an iron-sighted Mosin Nagant M28 and a submachine gun.

Maybe it's not about the scope.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 04:25:55 (ZULU)

Gents,

Interesting comments concerning scopes. Probably one of the most mis-understood pieces of equipment in shooting. All kinds of old wives tales and mis-information. My favorite tactical scope is a Luppie MK IV M1 10X. It has all the magnification I need for my .308. The old Luppie 6X was a good one, too. Have gone as high as 16X, but it was just to much power for general use. The variable has come into it's own and I've got 2 of the Luppie 3.5 X 10 X M1 LR's. One on my 6.5 X .284 and the other on my Winch Stealth .223. Good glass, although like Lindy I would love to have a S&B. Just a bit to rich for my blood...

Undude, Saw one of the Grendel "folders" in .308 about 8-10 years ago. Guy wanted to sell it. Your's truely had the money, but didn't see the need for it. Interesting rifle. Didn't know enough about them at the time to REALLY know how unique it was. Especially with the SAKO action. Nice rifle.

Joe M, Brownells is selling JARD triggers for the Howa's. Pre-set at 14, 19, 22, 26, and 28 OZ. Similar to the Rem 700 trigger with that style of safety.

As for shooting your Howa off the bi-pod I wish you luck. I've always shot better over my pack and not bad with a sling. The Parker Hale bi-pod and spigot/handstop arrangement for my M40 A1's is great, but my feeling is that it's not needed. Guess it's like a Ford vs. Chevy thing.

Bedding the Howa. Really don't know that much about them. If the stock has an aluminum bedding block I'd consider skim bedding it. If the stock is all glass you might want to hog it out a bit and pillar bed it. It sounds as your shootin' fine as is...

All my rifles are fully bedded with the exception of the Winnie Stealth's aluminum bedding block. It shoot's into .5" @ 100 yards if I do my part, so see no reason to skim bed it. If I ever get bored maybe.

The best general purpose bullet I've used, accuracy wise, is the Nosler Ballistic Tip. The old Speer "Hot Core" 165 gr. BTSP was a dandy, as well.

Larry P. Happy 65th Birthday! Hard to believe that years ago we were just young'uns serving on T-II. Found a old photo of me in dungarees by the forward pan/tilt. Wonder were that young good luckin' kid went too?

My best to all. Glad everyone survived Turkey Day. I didn't even have to use duct tape on the grand kids!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 05:14:40 (ZULU)

Thanks for Info Everyone. Anyone shoot 165 BallisticT's to 1000? It's 6:00 and I'm off to kill the big one, only wife's not up to wish me luck. It' really works, so someone wish me luck before I quit hunting around 10:00 if you've got time. Superstition is a b***h. Probably won't do any good anyway. We've got a FULL moon so bright that I almost stayed after dark yesterday. It rose around 4:45 and set sometime just a little while ago. Moral conscience got to me though and I came home. Nice little 7 point played in front of stand for 30 minutes. I figured I'd let him get bigger, or save him for monica's first buck. He don't know how lucky he is. now if the neighbors will just let him grow too. I wish they would impose a 8pt/16in rule with 3 1/2yr old age exceptions for culling bad genes. Too much difficulty and too complicated for the bubbas around here according to the local warden. He did say he'd talk to the neighbors about our program though and see if he could get them to go along. I offered to plant high protien summer and winter food sources for them if they would. Maybe it'll help. We just had to start over in our program after losing a 5000 acre lease that we'd been running since '92. Some rich guys from Memphis got wind of the racks comming off it and leased it out from under us for, get this, $12 an acre for just hunting rights. I don't know bout you guys but $60 grand was too rich for our blood. Check the news, The new TN state non-typical was killed there last week. I hate non-typicals, but 51 points! IMHO still ugly, but as said by aristotile or someone could be sour grapes"

Gotta go. If I offended anyone sorry. I didn't have time to proof read this one for SC political correctness.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 12:28:09 (ZULU)

Jeff:

I tried running the 165g BT's at 800meters w/.308 Win, had issues with them going subsonic and starting to keyhole. It wasn't clear if driving them a little faster would have solved that issue.

(I say a *little* faster because I was already at max case capacity with Varget or one other powder). Muzzle velocity would have been around 2650 ft/sec. Switching to 155g Lapua Scenars permitted driving them faster, and they have a better ballistic coefficient.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 14:07:54 (ZULU)

Jeff,

I tried my 150NBTs at 1000 the last time I was at Oak Ridge. They hit the target reliably, but were key-holing (same load I said earlier). I've thought about trying the 165s, but never have. Not sure the extra mass would be enough: impossible to say without trying. One nice thing about the Noslers is the base of the jacket is considerably thicker than most designs. ERGO, the BULLET can stand up to higher pressures without deforming. This probably isn't much noticed by hunters, but if you're pushing them pretty hard, and trying to hit groundhog noses at 300-500 yds, you think about these things.

Rod, what you said about the 155 Scenars is what I was more inclined to once I started hearing about their slick BC. Never handled any; do they have a secant-ogive instead of Sierra's tangent? That's what is being said by many, of course you'd need a freekin' optical comparator to tell unless the handouts that come with them say. There are a LOT of guys lovin' the Scenars though, so LAPUA's doing something right.

Question, have any of you bums read Harold Vaughn's, Rifle Accuracy Facts? There's very little quantitative thinking on how rifle workout there (one of the reasons I like this bar so much), and I figured several of you would enjoy the book, or already have. I'm a mechanical designer by trade (when I'm not in uniform) and Vaugn got me looking at rifles from a machine design viewpoint. This makes things much clearer (for me) and exposes a lot of the rumors & fads for what they are.

'Lito, continued prayers for you & yours. Have no mercy. The crowd you're up against would only view it as weakness and turn on you. Sometimes people just force you to be brutal on them: this qualifies.

SSG Mac
Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 14:38:20 (ZULU)

>>>Larry P. Happy 65th Birthday! Hard to believe that years ago we were just young'uns serving on T-II. Found a old photo of me in dungarees by the forward pan/tilt. Wonder were that young good luckin' kid went too?<<<

Thanks! There aren't too many pictures of me on her... You really need to make one of the reunions... The next one is in April 2010 in D. C. in honor of the 50th anniversary of the "Deep" dive.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 14:47:32 (ZULU)

Wes.....your use of the word "dungarees" leads me to believe youse was a squid like me. I was one of them dumbass airedales, so forgive the question....what was the T-II? Just curious.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 15:51:53 (ZULU)

Chuck, Dungarees is a Naval Service term that us Jarheads also used in time gone by. I can remember the older "Salts" calling the Marine "utility" uniform "dungarees". That always confused the Army and Air Force, cause they used the term "fatigues" for that uniform and than "BDUs".

Hey Chuck, remember I told you before that us Marines were a department in the Naval Service, The "Men's Department." ;)

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 17:00:07 (ZULU)

Gents,

Charles H., Did four years enlisted Navy in '70-'74. Joined the Reserves while I finished college and then Took a commission in the Marine Corps. Retired in '94 as a Major.

T-II is Trieste II (DSV-1). The hull designation stood for Deep Submergence Vehicle number one. A earlier version of Trieste is the vehicle that made the dive to the bottom of the Marianas Trench during Project Nekton. The T-II version was only 20,000 foot capable. T-II was cutting edge technology and was refurbished at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in '74. I was assigned as a Navy Diver and Electrician's Mate 2nd Class (EM2/DV). Pretty high adventure for a 20 year old "kid". In '73 I made a dive to 13,500 ft and still have the Dive Certificate. It was the best of times...

Gave a class at University of Oregon on the T-II in '77. One of the prof's was an old friend and wanted his Oceanography Class to learn about her.

Have gotten to do some things few men ever get the chance to experience. THIS was one of them.

Charles, being an "Airdale" is pretty special too. At least you had the sense to know that "Everything that goes down does not always come up"...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 17:17:14 (ZULU)

March Madness In California

How about some greta F TR Matches? Anyone up for it? A few friends and I will be there to go against some of the best long range shooters around

FOLSOM SHOOTING CLUB INC.

SACRAMENTO VALLEY SHOOTING CENTER

SLOUGHHOUSE CALIFORNIA

March 2008 Summary

CANADIAN/AMERICAN MATCH: 4-9 March

Palma Rifle and “F” Class

Tues: Squadded practice – 300, 600, 900 and 1000 yds. (40 rounds)

Wed: Day 1 individual – 300, 500, 600 and 800 yds. (48 rounds)

Thur: 4 Man Team Match – 300, 600, 900 and 1000 yds. (48 rounds)

Fri: Day 2 individual – 300, 500, 600 and 900 yds. (48 rounds)

Sat: 4 Man Team Match – 300, 600, 900 and 1000 yds. (48 rounds)

Sun: Day 3 individual – 300, 500, 600 and 1000 yds. (48 rounds)

Total number of rounds – 280

LONG RANGE REGIONAL: 12-16 March

Palma Rifle and “F” Class

Wed: Squadded practice 800, 900 and 1000 yds. (55 rounds)

Thur: Folsom Club match Palma course of fire. (55 rounds)

Fri: 4 Man Team Match – Palma course of fire. (51 rounds)

Sat: Day 1 individual – Palma Match and 1000 yd match. (85 rounds)

Sun: Day 2 individual – Palma Match. (55 rounds)

Total number of rounds – 301

FOLSOM 1000 YARD CHAMPIONSHIP: 19-23 March

Any Rifle and “F” Class

Wed: Squadded practice – 1000 yds. (50 rounds)

Thur: Folsom Club match – 1000 yds. Any/any, any/iron and Palma . (90 rds)

Fri: 4 Man Team Match – 1000 yds. Any/any, any/iron and Palma. (66 rds)

Sat: Day 1 individual – 1000 yds. Any/any three strings. (90 rds)

Sun: Day 2 individual – 1000 yds. Any/iron three strings. (90 rds)

Total number of rounds – 386

For additional information contact:

Jim O’Connell Ed Eckhoff (F-Class)

1817 Chestnut St. 38868 Rd. 18

Alameda, CA 94501 Woodland, CA 95695

E-mail jso6br@aol.com E-mail eckran@mindspring.com

Letters of invitation and copies of the match programs will be distributed at the 2007 Canadian Nationals.

Match programs will be available on the club website sacvalley.org by the 10th of November 2007.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 17:26:52 (ZULU)

SSG Mac:

The Lapua Scenars are a VLD design. The Scenars are described as having a secant ogive.

.308 155g Scenar projectile has a published BC of .508

http://www.lapua.com/information/products/components/

.308 155g Sierra HPBT Match Palma Matchking has a published BC of .450

https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2155

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 19:07:24 (ZULU)

Wes, it was my job to make sure that not everything that went down came back up. Principally, Russian subs. I was Flight Engineer on the P3 Orion subchasers. Yeah, those were heady days. I don't miss the Navy all that much, but having the power levers to 20,000 shaft horsepower in your hands was a kick in the ass....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 20:12:42 (ZULU)

Thanks Rod and Mac for the info. I guess I'll have to come up with a load for hunting and a load for hole poking like everyone else. That's one good thing about the RUM, It shoots flat, and halls butt out to 1000 but it's just not as accurate.

Wes and Charles I haven't heard dungarees since my father passed in '98. He joined the Navy after AVG was turned over to the Army. He said he liked clean sheets. Finished WW II and then attended Memphis State then went back for Korea as an officer where he was injured and medically retired. Became friends with "John Dean" somewhere in there and later gave me my middle name. He told me I needed to go meet the man some day, and I regret to say that I never did. Strange, I just wrote this to Marius earlier today. Everyone I went to school with as a kid wore jeans, I wore dungarees and they didn't know what the heck I was talking about.

No wall hangers today so they all got to walk away.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 21:21:40 (ZULU)

Yeah Rod, I'd seen those figures, but BC is so sensitive to how you measure and calculate that I don't have very high confidence in comparing different manufacturer's numbers. Sierra has a good rep for being internally consistent, and producing numbers that fit the more common ballistics calculators pretty well. Lapua has a good rep too, and I'm sure they give the best information they have, but how comparable the figures are between the tw is a question mark in my mind.

Whatever the actual numbers, a lot of guys are getting enviable results with the Scenars, and I've wanted to try them too. Palma shooters especially like them, and they're running 308s.

SSG Mac
Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 22:35:23 (ZULU)

SSG Mac:

Concur on the vendor to vendor BC thing, only really sure way is to take them for a test drive :-)

The Lapuas are working for me, and I'm not trying to drive the heck out of them for velocity. My goal was a duplicate of the Lapua factory loading, I think I have acheived that. Canadian master distributor for Lapua is a local, and I get a club discount on the product. Since he is local I also don't have to pay shipping either. That makes the pricing very attractive.

Lapua rep says that if you drive the Scenars really hard that the groups will open up a bit.

Some folks are claiming that because of the enormous hollowpoint in the Scenars, that they actually work fairly well as a medium game bullet (for a product not purpose-designed). Probably a poor choice for game above the size of northern whitetail deer.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 23:17:05 (ZULU)

The Laupa 155 gr scenar in 30 cal is not a good hunting round (it does not open up at all)...it makes small holes. It is a good long range pill. I was advised by a couple posters on this site to push it with RL15 to around 2850 - 2900 fps and it sure does work good. The BC is pretty darn close. I use the cam that came with my Leupold M3 LR....the one labelled 190gr 300 WM...it tracks perfect out to 900.

medicjim
Saturday, November 24, 2007, at 23:49:59 (ZULU)

Finger,

>>>Hey Chuck, remember I told you before that us Marines were a department in the Naval Service, The "Men's Department." ;) <<<

Some of us call the Marines "Expendables..."

Sharon

(I actually have great respect for the Marines...)

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 02:11:54 (ZULU)

JarHeads, I read recently in the Army Times that the Marines memorizied the test given to detect TBI's on the Battle Field. Talk about resourcefull they memorized the words and responses for the short term moemory test. Seems someone got a hold of it and they all memorized it in advance to stay in the game. God Loves a Marine. Sure wish I woulda went with them instead of Army but had a good time there too.

Finger, I dont go into town unless I have to till New Years. Folks are nuts till then. I went to Bandera to order my wife a set of custom chinks. My Christmas shopping is pretty much done. Everything else I order on line so I don't have to mess with jackasses in town.

Dirty Steve.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 03:29:27 (ZULU)

Marines: The service of my father. Glad it wasn't mine, though. It wouldn't have been bad, I'm sure...but no way in hell could I have done the ride I had in the Army in any of the other services. For starters, the infantry-ranger-SF path--it would have been 03A to force recon, if and only if I could escape my assignment at the right time and place for a slot...then OCS with an associates and a helluva resume (army schools)--not likely anywhere else! Flight school? Doubtful...and to command for over 5 years by gaming the system? Not happenin! Naw....no regrets; my army career was the stuff of fiction looking back.

Geoff--that is why I do not brag on it---who'd believe all that shit?

I heard that the test was also out on Taji (aka Camp Cooke), with cav dudes playing the psychologists there as well.

Tomorrow I walk the rifle...the day after I revert to bow again.

Doc: 700 SHP turned down to 540SHP so the tranny doesn't explode, max allowed weight and TO weight often on equal terms, flying in the zero-margins danger zone of the flight envelope with pine cones in the skids, using goggles akin to flying with toilet paper rolls glued to your eyes, crashworthiness rating of an empty beer can, low-intertia rotors that allow an auto straight to the ground right now, and the BIG LIE of first in line for the Commanche RAH66 if we just deal with all that for a year or two...heheh; those were heady days!

Of course, now that I can look back objectively---are you kidding me??? Was I that dumb???

Joe M
Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 04:03:57 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

You were indeed fearless! On my very first flight in an operational squadron the instructor asked me how to tell if the bird was safe to fly. I stuttered and stammered around in circles before he finally told me the answer. He said,"You simply count the number of motors and divide by four. If the answer is less than one it's not safe to fly!" He was a very wise man. Like Charles I also liked shovin' throttles on Allison T-56's. The P-3 was a sweet bird; but my true love was the C-130.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 04:26:38 (ZULU)

Doc, come'on--fearless is knowing that there is danger and doing it anyway. "Dumb-as-dirt" is doing it cause you heard it is safe from someone who knew someone... And you should check out the newer J-model C130--crazy swooping six bladed props and fast as all hell. The vibration is different though---not like the lullaby hum from the four blades anymore. It's a freakin' sleep ruinin' buzz now.

Heard from Morgue tonight; all is well as he stands out on the far reaches defending civilization from the uncivilized asshats of AQ.

Keep him and all our servicemen in our prayers. And remember not to take life for granted as we sit with family during these holidays. Too many great Americans will not be so fortunate...

I am realizing how late it got....dang how time flies when you sit down with a knife collection and an oily stone....the alarm will piss me off for sure now:))

Joe M
Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 06:53:54 (ZULU)

Doc, Doc! Puh-leeze......how can you compare the Orion with a C130? that's like camparing a Dodge Ram pickup with a UPS truck.....although you CAN get anywhere in the world on a C130. P3's can only land where there's hot chow and a movie theater.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 15:00:36 (ZULU)

Charles,

That's where I always took the C-130's as well as the P-3's! Never did like the idea of liberty without cold beer and warm ladies.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 16:03:07 (ZULU)

Helicopters are the worst of all aircraft. If they don't get shot down, they often deposit one in places where unfriendly strangers will try to kill you - and then won't want to retrieve you from the clutches of durance vile. Those collections of parts flying in loose formations should be avoided if at all possible.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 16:46:30 (ZULU)

Yeah, like the PI.....Disneyworld for grownups. Only town I've ever been to where you have to wait in line at turnstiles just to go out in town! Of course, in those days, the beer coulda been warm and it wouldn't have mattered.

I'm in a bit of a snit today. Last weekend we were playing OPFOR against the Army at Camp Bullis. During the sniper ops/cover vs. concealment class, I put 15 blank rounds through the new Remington. When we got through, I just put it in the gun cabinet without cleaning it as I was bone-tired. When I went to clean it Wednesday night, my patches started coming out RED. I'm pissed....mostly at myself for being lazy. Who knew blanks were corrosive? Grrrr....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 17:15:47 (ZULU)

Doc & Charles 700 down to 540. What kinda engines? Sounds Like the Pratt and Whitney PT-6 20-41 series that we use on our ag planes. When we're loaded you ease stick foward to go down. You pull stick back to go down faster. Stays that way for first half of load. I flew a 510 Thrush with a PT-6 65 for a couple months one season. Never took off not fully loaded. Went to ferry it to get annual inspection in January after season. 20 degrees temp and no load. Before I got throttle 1/4 foward the thing was in the air and flying. It confused me then I had to think, OK, do I push it more or pull it back. I had to read torq guage to know what to do. I'd never gotten off the ground without first going full foward and eating up the entire runway.

I don't hear much about the Berger bullets from you guys, what's your opinions on them compared to the SMK's and Scenars other than costing more?

I remember someone in here being from Siloam AR. I had a guy land at my airport yesterday from there. He was headed to SC in a Champ that he had sold to someone there. He sideloaded the plane so hard when landing that he blew both main gear tires by ripping the valve stems out. I replaced both tubes for him, gassed him up, "12 gallons" and he went on his marry way at the freightening speed of 70 MPH.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 18:19:39 (ZULU)

No. They use the Allison T-56-14 engines, at a 100% rpm of 13,820 which is run through a planetary-type reduction gear box. Drops the rpm's down to 1020, to Hamilton Standard props. Engines run at 100% constantly, changing power settings changes the prop angle, which is sensed by the speed sensors and changes the fuel control setting, keeping them at 100%. Reliable as hell. I've landed them with chips lights on, still running smooth as silk; pulled the gearbox mag plug and found chunks of gears big enough to get part numbers off of....Those Allison/HamStandards have gotten my ass out of a couple of tight spots. But, I'm too old to go back to that life now. Too bad the private contract companies aren't using them, I'd sign up so fast....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 18:50:55 (ZULU)

Those are like the Garret engines on some ag planes. I've only flown one Garret so I'm not to familar with them. Great to fly but hell on ears on the ground with prop running at full throttle. The Pratt isn't actually connected to the prop so on the ground it is basicly just windmilling. It actually will windmill when parked with the engine not running if you don't tie it down and I have friends that have started their pratts with the prop still tied. It'll fire right up the only problem is that we tie the props to the exhaust and the exhaust cover/prop tie gets scorched. oh well wife needs computer.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 19:27:12 (ZULU)

Jeff:

Berger made their name in benchrest. If you can shoot to that level and you need another step up in accuracy then it could possibly be worth the extra money. Otherwise, probably not.

Also, Berger is publishing a BC of .472 for the .30 cal 155g VLD, that is less than the published value for the Lapua in the same weight (.508).

http://www.bergerbullets.com/long-range.htm

The Lapua should be sufficient for any non-BR long range usage.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 19:35:38 (ZULU)

Charles:

Blanks are often based on black powder :-(

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 19:39:40 (ZULU)

Jeff: Our down-tuned turbine was the Rolls-Royce Allison 250-C30R/3 in the R, or "SEP" upgrade package--which was the last iteration of the OH58D Kiowa Warrior that I flew. Think Jet Ranger with a soft-in-plane 4-blade rotor and a ball on top:)) The mast torque limits and tranny size limits meant that the engine was more than able to break something important--so the FADEC kept it from doing so, among other restrictions. Like Doc, the engine's power was electronically controlled, all we parasites did was alter the power settings to go up/ down/ slow/fast---the engine did whatever it needed to without further input. Failures: Sure--and this model failed to the high-side. You had to be quick on the manual throttle to prevent rotor overspeeds if this fails on the ground. Otherwise, it is merely an uncommanded climb---followed by some really, really micro adjustments with macro results to get back to solid ground. PITA...come to think about it--the whole damned aircraft was a PITA. Prior to this, I flew Hueys and Cobras. Those simple designs were as forgiving as they were robust. Sometimes, newer is NOT better!

And yes indeed--I fell for the RAH66 sales pitch to get into this "interim aircraft"---which is still the interim aircraft in use a dozen years later (I was told that the RAH would deliver a Squadron's worth by 96). In fact, its service began during Prime Chance (reflagging Kuwaiti tankers--back when we didn't bother talking to the Mullahs, we just shot at them)---20 years ago this year. Two decades for a short term fix--there's the Army for ya!

Ya know, the M24 is built on a long action Remmy so we could "upgrade" to 300WM someday. I've yet to see one. One answer from the supply guys: "Well, we have all these 308 barrels and ammo---why change that?"

Lesson: If the Army buys something cheap-assed with the statement "we will get something better down the road"---be aware that YOU will not live so long--and run away. Once one dime goes into the cheap--it is now the de facto capability unti it is worn the hell out--from too many complete overhauls at the depot. Your lifespan is often less---

My solo Huey was one year older than I was at the time--and I was as old as you can be without a waiver by just days:)) The first Duece and a half I drove had me by ten years...

Joe M
Sunday, November 25, 2007, at 23:18:14 (ZULU)

"The first Duece and a half I drove had me by ten years..."

HA! I've driven that truck!

SSG Mac
Monday, November 26, 2007, at 01:02:02 (ZULU)

Old airplanes: the last B-52H was produced on October 26th, 1962. So, all the BUFFs are older than nearly everyone in the crews flying them - and the Air Force proposes to keep them in service until at least 2040.

There are a significant number of DC-3s still in service. At least one company was in the business of converting them to turboprops. Those are old, old, airframes.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 01:26:05 (ZULU)

Lindy...

>"There are a significant number of DC-3s still in service. At least one company was in the business of converting them to turboprops. Those are old, old, airframes."<

There are enough companies making replacement parts for the DC-3, that you can build a new one from parts.

(Back to the grindstone)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 02:14:19 (ZULU)

ancient aircraft continued:

Canada is still running 1963 vintage Sea Kings...

"The Sea Kings (currently) require 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight, and they are unavailable for operations 40 per cent of the time."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/seaking.html

They are known as the "ancient" Sea Kings, the "geriatric" Sea Kings, the "venerable" Sea Kings. They have been called "flying coffins." Purchased with considerable fanfare by the federal government in 1963, when they turned heads with their impressive exploits, the Sea Kings are now a sick, aging fleet, with pieces literally falling out of the skies. Canada bought 41 of the single-rotor Sea Kings, technically known as the Sikorsky CH-124 Sea King. Twenty-eight of them remain in service, and those still flying are often hit by flameouts, engine stalls, generator failures and gearbox problems. Pilots have died flying them, falling into oceans, crashing into muskeg – more so the older they get. After the federal government renewed the bidding process in 1999 to replace the fleet, builders around the world jockeyed for position to win the contract.

In the end, Canada chose Sikorsky to replace the Sea Kings. In July 2004, newly appointed Defence Minister Bill Graham announced that Ottawa will spend $3.2 billion on 28 Sikorsky S-92 helicopters, to be known as Cyclones. The medium-lift utility helicopter was inspired by the design of the company's Black Hawk and Seahawk helicopters.

The Sea Kings were supposed to have been retired by 2000, but the air force prolonged their life by spending $80 million to keep them flying until 2005. The Sea Kings require 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight, and they are unavailable for operations 40 per cent of the time.

The government must now spend more money to keep the Sea Kings in the air. The contract for the new Sikorsky helicopters calls for the first air craft to be delivered on Nov. 30, 2008.

"The technologies on the aircraft are showing their age," said Col. Brian Akitt in December 2001. Akitt was the commanding officer of the remaining fleet of 28 Sea Kings based at Shearwater and Patricia Bay in British Columbia.

In their glory days, the Sea Kings were mighty impressive, a source of national pride. The Canadians who operated them were esteemed around the world as inventive, brilliant and daring.

The helicopters were designed – albeit with 1950s technology – primarily as submarine-hunters. Canadian navy pilots pioneered dazzling new anti-submarine techniques, with the Sea King as much a star as the pilots flying them.

The Sea Kings are big, weighing nearly nine tonnes, and conventional military wisdom was aircraft carriers could provide the only suitable platforms for them. It was also conventional wisdom that they could not work at night. The Canadians experimented with smaller ships as platforms for the Sea Kings, giving them greater flexibility, and allowing them to hunt subs with sonar, radar and torpedoes day and night.

When the Canadians suggested Sea Kings could be launched and land on a destroyer, navies reacted by calling them "crazy Canucks." But they made it work, inventing a "hauldown" technique – the Canadians nicknamed it the "beartrap" – essentially a vertical winch that centred the Sea King over the destroyer – often heaving in the raucous North Atlantic – and the chopper pilot then flew down the hauldown and landed on a rolling surface about the size of a double-car driveway.

Lee Myrhaugen, a former air force colonel who logged 4,000 hours aboard Sea Kings, told John Ward of the Canadian Press, "The rest of the world stood back, awestruck with the notion of putting such a large helicopter aboard such a relatively small ship."

The first ship outfitted this way was HMCS Sauguenay, a 2,263-ton St.-Laurent-class destroyer escort, in 1967.

The sad state of Canada's Sea Kings reflects as much political intrigue and bungling as anything to do with helicopter design, engineering and performance. Their working life simply has been extended embarrassingly beyond their capabilities. The Sea Kings may be dangerous now, but they have been workhorses, saving lives at sea and serving around the world in Somalia, the Persian Gulf and Adriatric Sea, and in the fall of 1999 transporting troops and supplies in East Timor.

The Tories tried to buy new helicopters in the early 1990s, after a decade of severe military cost-cutting and, no small matter, the end of the Cold War. In 1992, the Tories announced they would spend $4.8 billion to buy 50 EH-101 helicopters from the Anglo-Italian consortium European Helicopter Industries Ltd. These were state-of-the-art choppers, the best in the world.

Then came the 1993 federal election campaign, when Jean Chrétien and his Liberals attacked the Tory plan as wasteful, calling the EH-101 a "Cadillac" helicopter. When the Liberals won and Chrétien became prime minister one of his first acts was to scrap the Tory deal, an act that cost the Canadian government nearly $500 million in cancellation fees.

But Chrétien's government, and that of Prime Minister Paul Martin after him, faced mounting pressure from the military to replace the Sea Kings.

More than a decade after the Tories announced the purchase of 50 EH-101s, the Liberals announced their more modest purchase of 28 S-92s from Sikorsky. Defence Minister Bill Graham called the Cyclones, "the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians."

Many in the military, though, said they would have preferred the EH-101 Cormorants to replace the Sea Kings. The Canadian Forces purchased 15 Cormorants in 1998 to replace the twin-rotor Labrador helicopters in search-and-rescue missions. Some in the military said having the same model for its maritime fleet would have made it easier to train technicians, air crews and maintenance workers.

The glory days of the Sea Kings are in the distant past, yesterday's heroes, now burdened more with a reputation for embarrassing crashes than for saving lives or finding submarines.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 04:01:28 (ZULU)

Joe F'n hillarious. There are a lot of similarities in the way the turbines in the helo and some of the Turbine Ag engines work though. With fuel control, over speed and such. I'm going to a PT-6 41 or 34 if I get what I'm asking for next year. Hopefully the -41 for the more horsepower. I keep telling the boss I can always pull it back but if I need it to get off the ground and ain't got it I ain't got it. He's thinking Garrett TPE-331 cause of the money savings in initial cost, but everyone he talks to explains to him pay now or pay later. Garrett turbines average almost twice as much in hot section inspections, which come about every 3-4 years. They have a recomended time but no one goes by it on either engine cause it'd be in ther shop every two years, if not sooner. Anything is better than the P&W 1340 & 985's radials that i've got about 6000 hrs in. The last one of those was built around WW II. I started to get My Multi in a DC-3 at Americas GA. That way I'd have the type rating too. It was at a time when I thought I might do cargo instead of dusting. The guy was going to do it for free while he was making cargo runs, but if I took his offer I would have to fly for him for a year and I had my first dusting seat already lined up. Didn't want to miss it cause the first one is nearly impossible to get. He also had some of the turbine conversionsalong with some turbine box cars.

This is plane I spent 11 years in right after a paint job 1962 model Gruman Ag Cat. A good friend of mine, Dick Reade, who was in the business way back then talked Gruman out of naming it the "grasshopper" and instead named it the Ag Cat to carry on the tradition of Cat names from their WW II fighters. When this one was built it initally had no canopy, that was added later. the serial # is 123. Coincidentally, my 1950 harley is 10123, and the last four of my phone number are 1230.

http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Crop%20Dusting%20and%20Planes/BeautifulYankee.jpg

This is what I flew for a year before downgrading to a Radial 301 Air Tractor to get a job back here in TN.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/bjeffcooper/Crop%20Dusting%20and%20Planes/502leftturn.jpg

I don't know if the service will let you look at the rest of the albums but some more of the junk I flew is there. I especially like the black sheep screwing the boll weevil tail insignia on our cessna's. Boll Weevil Eradication called our flying service the "Black Sheep"

Lito continuing prayers and good luck. Fight the good fight.

Jeff C
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 15:48:51 (ZULU)

When I was in my last year in the Army, flying as a flight medic, one of our UH 1D's was called "Patches". She had been shot up so bad in 'nam there were "patches" all over her! The log books we had went back to 1961!! I was 11 years old when she first saw duty. Oh it was in 1989 when I was flying in her and she was probably one of the best aircraft we had!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 19:38:49 (ZULU)

Hey,

I wanted to thank all of you knowledgeable folk out there. I had my first successful hunt for Pronghorn Antelope in New Mexico. A large part of it was due to reading all the hints and arguments ;) about technique, equipment, etc. I was using a rifle based on an old shot-out Coltsman in 30'06. The bbl was replaced with a Douglas Match, Bedded and Floated. Leupold 3/4 mil dot 4.5-14x40 scope. Harris bipod, but I also made one of those camera tripod rests in case the brush was thick and high. The rifle ended up weighing about 10 lbs (though I wish it were 14.1 since I'm pretty lightly built). The big thing was the practice which I enjoyed almost as much as the hunt itself. Kept a cold shot target and developed a mind-set. The antelope was taken at 285 yds (by laser rangefinder) and pretty much right where I wanted it. 168 gr X-bullet (factory). Disintegrated the top half of the heart which is pretty darned big. The whole thing felt like practice at the ranges. I cranked the action in mid-recoil and re-engaged the target without thinking. My hunting partner, a guy who was telling me all sorts of 'safari' stories of his, got Buck Fever and took 5-6 shots with his .270 before hitting his antelope in the hindquarters.

Many thanks again for the success of this 'operation!'

Kathy S.

p.s. grass fed Pronghorn is pretty good!

Kathy4895
Pasadena, CA, USA - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 22:13:14 (ZULU)

Ms. Kathy: Heheheheh. Now that is a good story! Shot it in the hind end...after all that lead-up 'bout the great white hunter; LMAO. Rest assured that to instill doubt is bad---to do so in front of the fairer sex, after she has proven herself his better---well; this will leave a mark on his ego for keeps. Hahahaha.

Nice shot, BTW. Only a few appreciate that an actual 200+ shot is difficult on game, near 300 is even more so. My neighbors will swear that they make them all day long--while never seeing a shot past 75 yards. It is those shots that they have a 50/50 PK, while once made, these 50 yd-75yd shots becomes 200+ in the re-telling. And we're talking animals twice the size of prongs. Cracks me up:))

Good on ya...

Joe M
Monday, November 26, 2007, at 22:25:27 (ZULU)

Joe:

I've worked a few hunter "sight-in" events at a known-distance range facility in the past. It's conducted at 100 yards. Some of the fellows who show up think they're shooting at 200 yards until you point out the distance markers. Hmmmm....

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, November 26, 2007, at 23:12:35 (ZULU)

Kathy ma'am...Good Shooting!

Ok..it is getting to be that time of the year again..New Years is fast approaching. Who is up for a New Years Day shoot this year? I promise to try to keep from falling out like I did last year! Geez..hospitals.....

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 00:20:22 (ZULU)

Ms. Kathy,

Joe is right. That guy's ego is scarred for life. Good shootin'.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 05:41:23 (ZULU)

Joe M

I plan on heading your way around the 12th, i'll bring that chunk of steel with me. I've got to make a run to the Twins then down to Decorah Ia.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 10:17:29 (ZULU)

Kathy,

Start calling him "Buttshot".

I had a friend that the boss had hired to help me when I was running a small cow outfit in Colorado. We'd take my lever guns with us when we were horseback, and when we were riding home after moving some cows, we'd try to deplete the rabbit population.(folks don't realise how much grass the little bastards eat!)

He was a good old boy, kinda odd, but a good friend. Grew up ranching and guiding. Couldn't shoot for shit. No matter the distance, he'd hit a rabbit in the ass. Didn't matter if it was 50 yards or 10 feet. I was amazed at his ability. Sitting, running, whatever, they got a lead suppository. Hence, the name.

Well, anyway, after I'd been calling him "Buttshot" for a coupla weeks, and riding him pretty hard about it, we were riding along, and I spotted a rabbit on a little sidehill, right next to the trail. So close I coulda barrel poked him to death. Well, I pulled my rifle out, handed it to Buttshot, and backed my horse up. Asked him, "Ya think you can hit him at this range?". He takes REAL CAREFUL AIM, probably took 20 seconds, finally, he shoots the bunny. Right in the head. He's thinking, "Hey, I broke my slump!". Well, ya know how a headshot animal will sometimes stiffen up, and stick their legs straight out after you shoot them? The rabbit stood up, and I swear it looked right AT ole Buttshot! He damn near dropped my rifle, and I nearly fell off my horse, I was laughing so hard. He shot him again.

The look on his face was PRICELESS!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 15:55:12 (ZULU)

Lito,

Click my name. This may be of some interest to you. Dunno. Hope it helps.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 16:03:54 (ZULU)

Hi again!

You are all real gentlemen. Despite all my practice and studying, I prepared myself in case the rooster windvane on the barn or a cow fell over somewhere off to the 3 o'clock, I would have immediately pretended to snap chewing gum, twirl some of my hair then giggle!

I tried to be really nice to my friend but I think just nothing helped...especially after we got back to the camp and everyone else there was asking "Who started the war???"

Thanks again for all your kind comments!

Kathy

Kathy4895
Pasadena, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 16:36:57 (ZULU)

Some friends tell a story where, on an elk hunt, one of the guys opens his gun case to discover he brought a 870 Wingmaster shotgun instead of a rifle. Now, years later, every hunt he's asked, "Hey, Scott, did you bring the 870 Elk-Master this year?".

Tough crowd....

Duman
Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 16:45:26 (ZULU)

Hey all.

I have been lurking around here for several years now. Loads of great info here.

I am thinking of getting into Executive protection. Was looking for a good school. I have been looking at mainly ESI, and a company in britain and south africa called "psdtraining" does anyone know anything about eather and if you do, wich one would you recommend?

Thanks.

Craig
Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 16:57:57 (ZULU)

Craig, not sure country your in but here in US I went to Steele Foundations school. ITG is what they call it. Follows State Department Guidlines and ran well. Might look at that. They travel around US giving classes. Then they will help get you in industry if you want once you Grad. I get constant emails with jobs two years later sent to me. Plus very nice folks. Take a look at them.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 19:00:48 (ZULU)

Craig: The last, absolutely last thing I would consider doing is PSD work. On the one hand, if you NEED to stay alive, that I can do for you easily--but life just changed significantly for you as the principal; on the other--some of these clowns need to be out in the public as a matter of course. Complicates things. The only way I'd find myself in that line of work is if I start the firm and hire you to go play:)) Now, as for classes---that all depends on where you want to work this gig: principles apply to all environs for sure--but you might want to look at who you want to work for before buying yourself a "too specialized" course. Your post doesn't spell out your creds or comfort levels with various arms---those things are the cart to put before this horse in any case. I've seen outfits in Iraq/ Stan doing this thing using 416s with S&B scopes, FALs, MP5s of all flavors, M4s, SAWs, RPKs, RPDs, Glocks, 1911s, HiPowers, Berretas older than me, AKs, hell--you name it:)

In other words: PSD employers use a certain group of "backgrounds" as prereqs---then merging the skills the operator brings on board to a PSD is relatively simple, and the bigger groups run their own mandatory schools for specific TTPs. The underlying necessity is that you know how to shoot well in crazy-assed situations, that you know tactics 101 terms and meanings (react "x" when "x" is asked), that you proven yourself in a similar line of work once before (the old "now is no time to learn you freeze when shot at" test is already done). I dunno from your post where you stand on experience (unless your name is Smith and we both attended OCS in 91)...if you BTDT, I mean no disrespect! Hard to tell from one post.

Yes, I am trying to discourage you. If you found this place and feel comfortable here--you are 99.9% likely to be a good guy. I wouldn't wish routine PSD on my dog's fleas. If you are bound and determined--then ensure that you get on a mission that allows the PSD team leader to set the travel plans, agendas, team composition to mission, etc. That minimizes the craziness somewhat. State weenies allow this to a minor degree, and some of the reconstruction outfits allow this to larger degrees---although you can and likely would find yourself undermanned out in la-la land defending an indefensibly large site while work is ongoing.

Naw, for every "good" mission some of the guys I know worked--they had 4 more that scared them silly---read: Stupid. I love "luck" as much as anyone---but relying on it is no way to live. I saw these outfits doing that more than anyone else over in the sandbox.

To each his own though. Find WHO you want to work for, then find out how to qualify for that specific gig. That will simplify your search for training, without wasting any money on the wrong schools.

Joe M
Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 19:06:01 (ZULU)

What do you guys think?

I was feeling a bit depressed the other day, so I

called Lifeline.

Like everything else in this country, it had been

outsourced and I was put through to a call center in

Pakistan.

I explained that I was feeling suicidal.

They were very excited at this news and wanted to

know if I could drive a truck.

;)

Mike, right on about ITG Dave Johnson is top shelf. The rest of Steele you can have LOL

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 19:14:16 (ZULU)

Jim, Dave is a guy you instantly know will hold his end of the log. One of the newer guys is a frend of Rick B's and GTG also. I liked all the guys they had. Also they had best quick combat first aide class I have taken because guys just cut out BS and showed how to get it done.

All in all very good experience.

Now of course when they had us dress in our own very nice suits and ties and had pretend protesters throw real eggs at us, a few guys running program got quickly away from me because I was going to put real hurt on them. LOL

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 20:43:17 (ZULU)

Mike, That sounds like Mikey B. from here in San Antonio. Rick was his team Sgt in Panama. Mike was with me in Haiti and one of the most professional dudes in the business. He came and saw my broke ass in the hospital last month.

Do you also know Mark M.? He just put his training company together with Dave's. Should be a good deal.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 21:10:00 (ZULU)

Finger...

>"What do you guys think? I was feeling a bit depressed the other day, so I called Lifeline. Like everything else in this country, it had been outsourced and I was put through to a call center in Pakistan. I explained that I was feeling suicidal. They were very excited at this news and wanted to know if I could drive a truck.;)"<

I laughed so loud, that my neighbor called and asked if I was all right.

Thanks, I needed that!

'lito (back to the files)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 21:12:58 (ZULU)

Jim, Mikey is one of the main guys I am talking about for sure. Wish I could have worked some with him. He was excellent instructor and funny. He would not give up on me that my knees no longer bent certain ways with all the hardware in them and sometimes I just am a bigger target. LOL

Dont know the other man that I can remember. Have not talked with Dave in a long time. If you get to talk to him aks him how to do angle shooting? I spent five minutes explaining it to him and he said he finally got it.

Those guys spoke so highly of you, your on my list to hopefully meet and share beer and steak with.

Dont you think life is good when we get to meet some real good men?

Catman, deep breaths brother. We are all with you.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, November 27, 2007, at 22:03:12 (ZULU)

Aww, shit, Finger! You damn near killed me that time. "wanted to know if I could drive a truck..." jeez, I can harldy type....

yer killing me. Ahhhh. I ain't had my belly fat moving like that in a long, long time.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 05:51:32 (ZULU)

Have some fun- RAF Dropmaster game

http://www.rafcareers.com/altitude/games/dz-game/dzgame.cfm

Gary Kaney
NW, ILL, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 10:11:03 (ZULU)

My mistake.

There sould be an underscore between dz_game.

At 4 o clock in morning my brain sometimes isn't fully engaged.

Gary Kaney
N, ILL, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 10:23:59 (ZULU)

Hey Gents,

was reading around and got linked to the Brady machine... saw this and wanted to pass on the link since it was of concern. I don't know if anyone else has heard of this but it is discussing a bill that was introduced by by Finestein about regulating 50 cal weapons and ANY other rifle that fires a military type cartridge...

Back to lurking

Morgue

http://www.bradycampaign.org/ler/50_caliber/

Mourge
Overseas, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 11:28:02 (ZULU)

Morgue,

According to this link that bill is dead.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-935

Cheers & WY6,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 13:49:02 (ZULU)

Doc,

You are the man... I didn't think to try to track down via a gov site. I read that and thought DAM... should maybe mention it to the like minded...

of course now I have to start thinking about responsible spending... instead of the buy it while its HOTT and available thought process I was getting ready to use BWG...

I was just starting to think... a couple of Uppers... a couple misc short sticks... a couple of misc long ones... and a tad wee bit of ammo... LOL... oh well... maybe next time <wink>

Joe M.

LOL... trying to get me to set up your nieces... LOL... do you really think they would go for that? BWG

Sharp

Do you ever check your email?

Moore

You still lurking out there? how have things been. Drop me a line sometime

Anyways Gents... Sorry about the false Alarm... you would think the alarmists at the Brady site would atleast update their website...sheesh...

Ya'll take care...

Back to lurking

Morgue out

Oh and gents... anybody happen to have that great picture that was floating around a while back of the barn COVERED in something like 200 or so yote skins... I can't seem to find it and I so want to post it at a friends site... BWG...

Mourge
Overseas, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 14:30:06 (ZULU)

Hey Morgue, I have that photo of the coyote covered barn.

Send me an email at johnhugdahl AT centurytel.net and I'll send it to you. I'll also post it in the hunting section on Sniper's Hide if you want to pluck it off there.

John

John
WI, - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 14:57:26 (ZULU)

Thanks Mike I will be checking them out.

Joe I used to post on here about eight years ago, loved this board used the name "partison" back then. Soo much info On here, and inteligent people to converse with. I quit becoue of problems with my X. blah blah whine whine. he he.

On the PSD/bodyguard training. What I have against me is no LE or Military Background so that limits me doing any PSD work right there, wich is fine. Have a buddy (my Former kickboxing instructor). who is a captain in the Danish Military who told me pretty much the same as you did on it all.

Some background on me.

I am Currently a Dirt working contractor and contract out on wildland fires here in Montana in the summers as well.

But Im missing where I need to be. I used to do alot of streetfighting, then I got into kickboxing and submission wich leveld me out.

On firearms I competed in Bullsye pistol. Have shot alot of siloute and thousand yard.

Lifetime Rifle/Shotgun/Archery hunter.

I have shot just about everything a civy can get there hands on short of Full auto or gernade launchers. So I can Adapt easily there.

Basically I am good with my hands and guns, have been blessed to meet some great real world operator's and to practice with them.

SO I need to get into a profession where what I feel my true talent lay. so Thus the Executive protection at least thats the way it looks now.

I also have a fair amount of Oversea's travel experience I think that helps me as well.

Any Direction you guys can turn me would be great, IM open and here to learn.

Craig
Anaconda, Mt, USA - Wednesday, November 28, 2007, at 17:05:37 (ZULU)

Here ya go Morque.

(click)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 00:46:55 (ZULU)

Craig- the vast majority of PSD work is boredom cubed. Then there's the principals and their families. Some are great, some are not, many family members are highly resentful of the restrictions, some find it most amusing to pick on the hired help. Some have a predatory interest in the hired help.

JoeM is right on the money about the importance of the Team Leader. You don't have to like the principal, or his/her family, but it helps if they don't treat you like a chained dog. Remember, you'll be up before they are and you don't sack out till they do-plus there's the night watch:)

You might check with Kobetz & Associates about training. However, I think you'll find that in most such employment, your standards of dress, decorous demeanor and table manners are more highly regarded than the physical skills you mention.

Your post seems to indicate you're interested in overseas work in areas that virtually require recent prior military experience. Most ethical outfits wouldn't employ you there, they don't need the casualty. Mike & Finger can speak to this area far better than I.

WR Moore
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 02:55:34 (ZULU)

Query for those with statistical experience:

What sample size is required to get a valid idea of muzzle velocity loss per inch barrel length when you must use different barrels to measure velocity? IOW, you have velocities from 7.5, 10, 11.5, 14.5, 16, 18 and 20" barrels, however they are different barrels that obviously have different dimensions, thus generate different velocities independant of the issue of barrel length. So what sample size is required to iron out this variance to a reasonable degree? S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 05:36:49 (ZULU)

KenM-20 trials are generally regarded as bare minimum to minimize random chance significantly affecting the validity of the results.

If you recall, even the FBI didn't have the budget for 20 trials of each ammo sample in their pistol bullet tests. Soooooooo, just how much confidence do you want (can you afford) in your statistical sample?

WR Moore
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 11:26:28 (ZULU)

Ken M: Five at each length should do it. Eight should be more than plenty. Send me the data and I'll use regression to fit a model to it.

CDC'
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 12:05:49 (ZULU)

Ken M, CDC',

If it's not too much trouble, would you post the results?

Ken M, what flavor of chronograph will you be using?

Thanks.

Duman
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 15:47:04 (ZULU)

Good christmas gift. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 18:07:12 (ZULU)

Craig: Well, welcome back! You "pre-date" me online here--I arrived in late 01 or so. I started posting, after catching up as much as i could on archives, several months later in early 02. My wife bought me a M21 to remind me that I wasn't always the dreaded commander of a recruiting company...which brings me to another idea:

The services have added several years to the max age for joining. The army in particular has a program right up your ally: Special Forces Assessions right off the street. It is a tough road, but in the end you will have PLDC, BNCOC, SGT (E5) paygrade and likely in a promotable status to staff sergeant, a language rating, SERE fun and games, a helluva skillset in one of the specialties (medics often go straight into PA programs with little pre-reqs with most of the course work credited thru training), and, more to the point: Plenty of experience to fall back on. SGT/ E5 pay is (monthly) is $1977, jump pay is $150 (HALO is $225), HFP (war) is $225, Dive Pay is $340 (if you go here), chow allowances is $279, and housing kickers are between 500-800, basic rate (depending on marital status) PLUS whatever the COLA rate is in the area you are stationed (as an E4, I got $1900 in Honolulu in 84!)---so, low pay? Maybe...but this is cash--the healthcare, dental, life insurance ($400K) is negligable cost or free, and if deployed--you ain't got a single cost in the world except personal toys. That is $3485 monthly for a non-diver, deployed, basic BHA rates (no COLA adjustments)---which is also tax free while overseas getting some shooting in:)) You can also qualify for pro-pay in language too--varies on the language and skill level--and not added in. Theres a few other pays I got while deployed--but i dunno why or what they were (free money? you betcha). It goes up with every budget cycle, and every two years for longevity, and with promotions--which come fast as hell in SF.

Now none of this includes bonuses--which is usually 20K for the SF contract, and another 20K if you ship immediately at different points in the year. That offsets the pay loss while in initial training phases (I think as an E4)--with no pro-pays until after starting airborne school.

There's also the Rangers and SEALs to look into. Marines will offer you Marine, One each. But if that is your gig, they have interesting units to aspire to thru merit alone. Best to get your desires in contract though---explicitly in contract language. No "don't worry, you can volunteer once you get there" bullshit that they WILL try on applicants to fill vacancies on the needs of the service. FWIW, unless it is in your contract--the machine owns your ass---your wants be damned. Caveat Emptor.

Now if i could only get this thru to the boy:)) Not the SF part---I believe that maturity is a key ingrediant for this program regardless of the stated parameters. A boy needs an Airborne Infantry gig to get prepared for the autonomy of SF life. But a man with some life under his belt is a great candidate. Oh, and the GI bill is getting better and better---as well as state programs locally run (like mine).

If money is a limiting factor---check it out deeper---money is not bad--especially with the bonuses. Hit me offline and i will ruin your day with what I make now--doing absolutely nothing or what I please. And what I made for the last five years in service...well, that too might surprise you. SF guys are getting 100K bonuses for staying extra past 20 years too.

It is probably more viable a path than many realize.

And finally: Retirement kicks serious ass!!!

Joe M
Thursday, November 29, 2007, at 21:08:26 (ZULU)

I've got a quick question? I've heard a lot of loads from you guys and noticed that no one has mentioned the Silver Scenars, only the regular Scenars. Has anyone tried them, and if so, what were the results? Actually, I just thought of another question. Has anyone shot any deer with Scenars? If so, what were those results? Damn that's four questions.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 04:53:16 (ZULU)

Another indication that it's time to hang up the Sam Browne and head off to greener pastures.....I spent an hour listening to some meathead upset because his neighbor put cat shit on his porch. He couldn't grasp that it was HIS fault, since his cats were shitting in the neighbor's kids' playbox.....and I had to go answer a SGT's complaint for the aforementioned catshit caper. Sheesh. DynCorp, ArmorGroup, SOMEBODY save me.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 05:04:08 (ZULU)

Thanks, I have not collected the data yet, I was looking to see how large a project it would be, but I think this is do-able, will report back when the info is collected.

I have a PACT Professional that I sort of inherited. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 06:17:05 (ZULU)

Cyber wars and the West

(Radical Islamists)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_gillespie/2007/11/cyber_wars_and_the_west_1.html

or click my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 11:59:06 (ZULU)

JC:

I'm using the 155g Silver Jacket Scenars in .308 Win. Work fine for me.

No personal experience with them on game.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 12:01:28 (ZULU)

Jeff - I've seen one deer hit with a .308 155 gr scenar. The damage was not extensive and the wound channel very narrow. I've fired a large number of 123 gr scenars in 6.5mm and find them to be very good at penetration, not expanding.

In short, my very limited case studies would suggest they are not a good hunting projectile if you want humane kills.

Note - I cannot explain why the scenars don't tumble like most very long bullets at high impact velocity. Maybe they have thicker jackets??

medicjim
Friday, November 30, 2007, at 13:51:48 (ZULU)

Anyone have a good load for .30-06 using 165 gr. grand slams using IMR 4064?

Also, anyone hunt with Hornady A-max bullets? I've heard they worked really well, and I've heard they're for targets, only.

I've got a box of 155 gr. A-maxes I was gonna load up, and saw that I'd written some loads on the inside flap of the box. Do these sound okay to you guys? BTW, I'm not sure where I got these numbers, and have NOT tried these loads.

IMR 4064 C.O.L. 3.230

Grains FPS

---------------

44.2 2500

46.1 2600

47.9 2700

49.8 2800

51.7 2900

53.6 3000

What's your most accurate load with this powder/bullet combo?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 15:59:08 (ZULU)

Travis I have a friend who swears by Grandslams on Elk, He shoots 180grn bullets. No Idea what powder he used.

Joe M thanks for the welcome back, I only see a handfull of names on here I reconize, Mike M and Lito.

I have looked into the military but I also do realestate investing as well soo not sure I can take much of a pay cut to start out. If I could hang in there ya the pay is great. Have a Cousin who just retired as a Leutanant Comander from the Coast Guard, swears he never made that much but what he owns says other wise.

However Military and Police seems to open all the doors that I need so at some point when I get finances straightend out I will be looking at one or the other. Times going fast IM already 36 arrggg.

Looking at options and Appreciate the feedback.

Craig
Anaconda, Mt, USA - Friday, November 30, 2007, at 20:11:43 (ZULU)

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