Sniper Country Duty Roster

To Sander, mate. Too young, but hell, lived a good one in the meantime.........

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 02:03:03 (ZULU)

Hi All!

Back from hunting camp. Worked four hunts, 32 days, and kept everyone fed and no food poisoning. Our hunters killed some nice bulls and mule deer. Had a few Griz. around but no problems except the loss of 150 lbs of dry dog food at the trailhead corrals. Sucker was a whopper by his prints and hungry!!

Dan have your # and will call...E-mail came after I left.

outa here

Markwell

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 03:11:23 (ZULU)

Is there any kind of reflective tape for night vision devices? About a week ago, I was in my sleeping bag, under a rain fly when a poacher took a shot at me. Luckily, he sucked as a shot and missed me at under 40 yards. There was no moon and it was heavily overcast so there was no possibility that there was enough light for him to have shot using conventional sights.

CDC'
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 03:44:01 (ZULU)

Try searching for IR Glint tape, many tactical supply shops will have it. It is very IR reflective and shows up well in NVD's.

CoryT
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 03:59:02 (ZULU)

CDC',

Are there IR luminescent sticks that you can hang by your tent? There are probably some other IR lights, LEDs, or other type of marking devices. I hadn't thought of such a situation, but it seems like a reasonable precaution.

Glad you are OK.

Duman
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 04:39:14 (ZULU)

CDC: Coulda been intensifier tubed scope---or thermal--or just a dumb ass shot in the dark. I have a bunch of little 3x5 IR flags left over from my trips abroad---you are welcome to them. Also have a little IR light that snaps on a 9v batt---I forget how long they go, but it is hours, not days. I may need your addy again---I have it somewhere...but ya know how that goes. I am still back hauling all my stuff into my new gunroom. And tying jute and burlap on a netted DCU (man, this is time consuming by yourself). If it was a thermal--I will let you know if the IR lights generate heat too, otherwise, you may want to mark with the reflective as well as a heat source. Based on the conditions, a thermal is likely. 1st and 2d gen tubes are shit without decent abient light---and the 3d gen tubes come at a steep price. Is poaching lucrative? Heheh.

Speaking of that, I have the pics of the room....now to get them to Ken H. Lazy ass Joe hasn't downloaded them to the 'puter yet.

Pete: 36 is way too young to go like that. I am sorry to hear it.

Yeah...no time like right now to shed the extra pounds. You and me both!

Jeff C: Me too---winnie over remmy any day! But I am a huge Sako fan for hunting riffles.

Just checking in...gotta get back to my ghillie tying party.

Joe M
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 05:08:34 (ZULU)

Joe M: It could have been thermal. The guy seems to have shot at my feet. That's where I felt the pressure wave. I expertly pitched the rain fly on a slight incline. My feet were lower than my head. I was in a sleeping bag, which was on a therma-rest pad, which was on a nylon pancho/ground cloth. All are slippery. During the night my sleeping bag slid downhill and my feet were poking out of the rain fly. I'm not that hep regarding NV, but I imagine that the part of the sleeping bag that was poking out of the rain fly was relatively warm - thus visible to thermal NV.

Good thing the guy completely sucked as a shot. It would have been damned charming if the clown would have blown my feet off.

CDC'
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 09:35:43 (ZULU)

Googling for "IR light stick" turns up lots of hits. Here is one:

http://www.maxmax.com/aXRayIRLightOrder.asp

6hr $1.50 ea

IR-only glint tape is a semi-restricted item. Since it is passive (i.e. it won't keep you awake at night), you may simply want to use conventional Scotchlite tape that would reflect in both visible and active IR. That would also ensure strong reflectance with a visible flashlight (i.e. jacklighting) too.

Googling for "Scotchlite self-adhesive" turns up lots of hits. Here are the details for a vendor that I use:

http://www.justmakeit.com/notions/scotchlite.html

Silver 25mm $5/meter (Adhesive - stick-on)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 10:01:50 (ZULU)

CDC,

Crazy thought here,but IR glint tape is reflective with the use of NV,correct?So by placeing strips of IR glint tape on your tent arent you ineffect making yourself a better target?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 11:14:22 (ZULU)

Unpat: "So by placeing strips of IR glint tape on your tent arent you ineffect making yourself a better target?"

Yes, but I'm assuming that the poacher isn't after humans. When I started yelling he quit shooting so he wasn't after me.

rr: I have the regular reflective tape on the tent pole. The tent pole for this rain fly is outside of the area covered by the fly. If regular reflective tape is detected by NV (is it?) the tape must have been obscured by bushes or something. This fly has another little pole by the feet that could benefit from a little reflective tape.

CDC'
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 19:59:52 (ZULU)

CDC,

Regular reflective tape will be visible with NVGs, if they are using an IR illuminator or there is some other light source to bounce back. It works just like the material they make road signs out of, reflects light back at the source. The IR tape just keeps the reflective tape from bouncing back the visible light. If you had standard reflective tape on your tent, he was either using thermal or took a shot in the dark. Or on gogs just saw a shape and fired. Either way, a dumbass is he.

Chemlight sticks work good, red works great if you want to be conspicuous to NVGs

S/F

Kush

Kush
Havelock, NC, - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 20:56:31 (ZULU)

There are several IC's on the market, designed specifically to flash LEDs. Added to some IR LEDs, designed to flash infrequently, it should be possible to make something last all night. You could even string something around, like Christmas lights... we could really get carried away with this.... :8-)

Scotchlite self-defensive tape ... kinda like 'hunter orange' for the night....

Duman
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 20:57:50 (ZULU)

<"Yes, but I'm assuming that the poacher isn't after humans. When I started yelling he quit shooting so he wasn't after me.">

Good to know he wasnt after humans,still dont change the fact he is a freakin moron for not correctly identifying what is and isnt a target.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 23:24:27 (ZULU)

Kush is right about the regular reflective tape reflecting IR. A fair number of the illegal aliens coming have the tape on their shoes and / or backpacks. They 'light up' the wearer from a long way off and are easy to spot if your on goggles.

Steve in Tucson
Tucson, AZ, USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 01:53:48 (ZULU)

CDC,

Have you shipped that package?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 05:22:58 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just checking in...

Pete, sorry to hear you lost your friend. Who would have thought someone 36 would die of a heart attack? By the way congratulations on your leaving the space agency and becoming a full time gunsmith. A case of "do what you love, the money will follow".

CDC, any idea why that dingbat picked you as a target of opportunity? Poaching I guess. Suppose even those guys are going high tech. Can't honestly say I've played with IR tape and devices. To rich for my blood and us non-grunt Marines rarely got to play with NVD's, etc. Mind you I retired in '94 and I'm sure the current fracas has driven technology a long way.

Deer hunting was a bust this year. Am hoping Elk will be better. Getting together with an old High School buddy who's been keeping tabs on the herds in some areas. Hopefully we'll bring home some meat. Could care less about a large rack. A nice tasty spike would do, thank you.

Jim, how is your recovery from surgery coming along. Let us know please.

Had the chance to chat with Bravo the other day. My wife says we carry on like two old women. She must know the calls are long because we only talk about important stuff...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 06:29:38 (ZULU)

Wes: "...any idea why that dingbat picked you as a target of opportunity?"

My guess is that the part of my sleeping bag that showed looked - through his NV scope - like the torso of whatever game animal the guy was trying to poach. The whole episode surprised me. What was the guy thinking? There was only one way out of there and there were hunters in the area where he was likely to have parked. The shooter couldn't have felt comfortable trying to haul away an illegal animal. What would he have done if he had killed an antlerless elk or deer? Just leave it? What if he just wounded something? It was snowing a wet snow and it was as dark as hell. There was no tracking it. Was he going to let it just run off and die?

It makes no sense.

Doc: Not yet. I'll make the time to ship it in the morning.

CDC'
Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 09:50:54 (ZULU)

CDC, I guess return fire was out of question?

Like the Crocodile Dundee movie " The Cheeky Buggers have guns and

their shootin back " !!!!!

We have nuts here in Joisey ( Sound Shooters ) and with Rifled Slugs,

I don't venture into the woods during firearms deer season.

Not worth it !!!!!!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steve Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 11:03:36 (ZULU)

CDC...

I lived in PA for 5 years, and the farmers would paint "COW" on the sides of their herds during deer season, cuz 60% of the hunters were city slickers from New Yawk City!

On the night before deer season, the side road would filled with parked campers, with NY plates, waiting for the season to open in the morning.

We wouldn't go out of the house unless it was full daylight.

All the locals got their deer well before the season opened ;)

So paint "PERSON - NOT GAME AMINAL" on your sleeping bag.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 15:15:03 (ZULU)

Fuck paint! If it's that bad, set claymores!

Anyone have a spare set of .30-30 dies they wanna trade off or sell cheap?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 15:30:19 (ZULU)

I was at a gunshow in Houston last week and saw an unfired, well the guy said it was, Colt SP1 for sale for $1500.00 What's the going price for these rifles these days?

I also bought two Springfield XD's at the show, a .45 and a 9mm. I've carried Kimber 1911's for the last 8 years. Recently I started wanting a higher capacity .45. I have heard good things about the XD. I like the feel of the XD over the Glock, since the XD has the same grip angle as my Kimbers do.

About a month ago I was up in Oregon for some rifle training at Thunder Ranch and got to talking to Clint Smith about the XD's. It's his opinion that if the Glock and XD had come out on the market at the same time that the Glock never would have caught on like it had, the XD would have been the one to beat.

I have a metric shit ton of 9mm ammo to train with, hence the purchase of the 9, and I'll carry the .45. Both pistols have the same dimensions, weigh practically the same, same holsters, etc. I bought them different colors so there's no mistaking what I'm picking up.

I shot a hundred rounds through the pistol last weekend and really like the way it feels and shoots. It points very naturally for me. For sure, there'll be a lot of getting used to the different trigger pull, and long trigger reset, as compared to the Kimbers. It's nothing that won't be taken care of by dry firing and training with it though.

I've heard that there's an after market kit, or custom shop modification, or something that address' these issues to some extent. Is anyone familiar with what I'm talking about?

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 16:45:15 (ZULU)

Tony...

That was a good price for a very clean (like new) SP1. I'd pay that and more for good (original) one.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 17:48:41 (ZULU)

Tony,

Be sure to let us know if you find an aftermarket trigger that makes the XD halfway decent. I damn near paid the high price of a Kimber, just 'cause I liked the triggers so well. It kinda sucks to have fine triggers on my rifles, and crap on a handgun.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 18:21:42 (ZULU)

CDC: Package inbound today. You should be NVG-proof for "mistaken identity" once you receive it. After this, any shots taken inbound will merit return fire. Another thought--and the most likely scenario: The asshat poacher was using a combo of cheap russian NVG and IR light source (surefire makes one helluva illuminator and IR lens--and those walmart specials have integral IR lights). This combo overcomes the lack of ambient light easily inside of of 100 yards, and the el-cheapo NVG tubes will allow targeting of shapes despite their terrible resolution. Yeah---shit combination here---increased range and conditions' usage with all the faults of foriegn obselete tubes. Shooting "shapes" is just as bad as shooting sounds in this case! Those tubes suck so bad beyond 30 yards as to defy description. I found one in Iraq....god knows what it could be used for. Call me spoiled.

Good news is that the use of the IR illumination to aid an older NVG works to your benefit with the IR tape: They will reflect that source back to the NVG with a surprising intensity that will be impossible to mistake. I tossed in a couple of options---your imagination is your limit on their use.

Morgue: Email inbound---as well as a letter to your alternate stateside addy as previously discussed.

I'm off to the post office!

Lito: what makes the SP-1 desireable? I'm seriously curious about this AR variant. I know nuthin'--as Schultz might say.

Joe M
Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 18:39:42 (ZULU)

And the S&W M&P's are even better than the XD's IMO.

Joe M, I sent a roster mail in response to the deer hunting offer a few days ago, check your spam folder or maybe there's some other glitch if you didn't get it. I'm pretty sure roster mail works for me, as I've had the same address for the last decade now.

IR glint tape works alright, but is generally a controlled item, for obvious reasons. IR chem lights work too but get expensive in a hurry. I have a few of the 9v IR strobes(Fireflies) but those often look like muzzle flashes if you just glance at them and are not expecting to see one(ie pilots). S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 18:49:37 (ZULU)

Joe M...

I'm sure as hell no expert on AR's... ask Bravo.

I got a creamy SP-1 with the Colts 3x ranging scope, in the early 90's. Mostly because they were going to pass a law in 60 days that said I couldn't buy one after the cutoff date.

It was "Cute", and weighed about one pound, nuttin'. I actually was thinking of replacing the pencil thin barrel with something a bit fatter. Then I took it to a Jon Farnam course on New Hampshire, and cleaned the course with it.

Then I fell in love with it, and everyone wanted to borrow it for the final quals, cuz nuttin could beat it.

That's when I decided that if the world got shity, I wanted my SP-1 and a bag of loaded mags to go.

As to actual cash value - I don't know, but they get gobbled up fast, and everywhere I take it, someone wants to buy it from me.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 20:16:01 (ZULU)

Guys,

Local gun shop has some AR lowers, either Bushmaster or DPMS. How much will it cost me, buying all spankin' new parts, to build one? (read, the ultimate AR)How difficult is it? I cant take aprt and reassemble my '94, my Ruger revolvers, etc., but have no experience with AR's. Also, if I want to shoot .308 and .223, will I have to buy 2 different lowers?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 20:53:31 (ZULU)

Travis,

A stripped AR lower should cost you under $175. If you get one, the USGI parts kit will cost another $50 or so... It took me about 15 munutes to assemble the pieces. Fun stuff!

I also agree with Ken, The Smith & Wesson M&P is really nice.

medicjim
Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 21:24:55 (ZULU)

I'm told that Bushmaster has timed AR15 assembly events as some past Maine gun shows :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 22:55:43 (ZULU)

re: poacher story

Joe, great minds...

I was thinking active IR too. Makes the most sense when reviewing the after-action report. A little Scotchlite tape will light up like Times Square with active IR.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 23:01:58 (ZULU)

CDC - That's a bum story. I ducked a few slugs during a deer hunt, but in that case the guy knew I was there and figure the treeline I was perched in would deflect the slugs enough that he could shoot at the doe that was 20 yards up the same treeline and between him and I. I'm sure Joe took care of ya but if you want some green or yellow regular scotchlite tape let me know, I have some. In following the thread, I thought it probably works in the visible and the IR spectrum, but I wasn't sure. Figures that someone knew the answer!

Stripped AR lower should be had for more like $125 if you do your homework.....you can find them on sale for $99 - $125 plus whatever the shipping and transfer costs. A good FFL for that is a must. The market is flooded with good quality lowers. DPMS, Bushy, RRA, Stag, LMT. They are all good. Mil spec is generally mil spec, and that's the beauty of the AR system. As far as building up a rifle, I had good luck with a parts kit from M and A parts, I had the barrel fluted, put a free float on it, and turned it into a DMR rifle. I think they are in Ken Ms neighborhood. J&T also sells kits. You can pickup a complete parts kit for around $550, plus a lower reciever, and you are in business. I have also built a few rifles scrounging used and new parts off the internet, etc. None have been turds. I did have two uppers that needed work to function, oddly enough they were both used Bushy uppers that I got cheap (go figure). Like 'Lito, my all Colt pencil barrel carbine is my favorite, but mine isn't a real SP1, it's a Colt Carbine marked 9mm lower with the mag adapter block removed, and an SP1 carbine upper.

Here is a great online guide for building up your AR -

"Assemble your own AR15 rifle from parts.... for dummies."

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 00:56:06 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I need some help/info for a troop over in the sandbox. He is required to carry both an M-4 and an M-9. Inside the wire neither can have a magazine inserted and they really pick up a lot of crud in a hurry. Is there anything you can use to cover the mag wells?

Thanks & Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 02:18:28 (ZULU)

Ken M: Sure enough--you are spam. I'll get ya those dates tomorrow. IIRC it is the week before thanksgiving and thru a few days after for gun deer---with an extension into december for antlerless---exact dates in an email in the morning:))

Doc: Hmmmm. The advantage of being a FG officer, i guess. I never bothered with the "clear" drill too much, until cleaning time. But empty mag wells? Methinks we are complacent beyond belief these days. But if one must remove his means of self defense and hafta carry around an aluminum club, then I'd use 100mph tape in a pinch or better (for gummy mess reduction)--electrical tape twice over. If time is on his side---have him hacksaw an old 30-round mag an inch below the magwell (to keep the fuckwads off his back), and tape-wrap the hell out of the bottom end---recommend safety orange. That'll be the easiest way to get something for nothing---it is reusable, and it comes out thru familiar motions. In fact, i'd drag over a kit bag full of such modifications, and sell them to the other victims of this pox on soldiers' policy. Hurumph...

Geoff: Ha! That was my guide to the homemade M4 conjured from the scrap pile (new-in-box AR parts getting tossed? yes, your tax dollars at work). Useful stuff for starting out!

Travis: Of course you have to buy two different lowers...and uppers too. The incidental parts are interchangeable--but the costly stuff is not.

joe m
Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 02:50:00 (ZULU)

Doc...

Are they in a situation where they will need to load a mag in a hurry?

If not, then some Saran Wrap might do. It'll seal it well, and come off "reasonable" fast..... but I sure wouldn't want a blocked mag well in a time of stress, cuz you will do what you trained to do, and jam a mag into the saran wrap, and die :(((.

I can't think of anything that would not be in the way in time of incoming.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 10:07:38 (ZULU)

Doc,

I'm completely in agreement with Joe on this whole clearing/aluminum club carryin' Bull***t. The Army has so much "tail" wagging the rest of it that they're going to end up killing GIs. If I had my way every swinging richard in uniform would draw his personal wpn, a basic load, and carry it all in condition one. There'd be a rash of "accidents" (read negligence), and then people would learn. Of course, the Mommies and the Safety Nazis would never allow that.

While I was on my tour in Baghdad there was a rash of NGs, and the TF CSM came around to warn the NCOs that the CG was considering requiring everyone to go on missions in YELLOW status. I stood there -incredulous- thinking the bastad's PSD wasn't rolling out with wpns in yellow. I was also thinking there's no outward visual difference between yellow and red. In the end the CSM persuaded him against it, but even threatening it shows a disregard for those under your command. ...Damn, I get mad just thinking about it!

Condition yellow, Grrrr... MY BIG OL' BUTT! All'yall count your beans, shut up & let the men kill what needs killin, and quit ruinin' my life!

and Hawgs... Have a nice day.

(Edited to correct spellin, and add thinly veiled JB&B references)

SSG Mac
Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 11:17:22 (ZULU)

Farnham said something about soldiers being afraid of their own weapons. The exact quote escapes me, but it wasn't flattering.

Thanks to all on the NV thread.

Doc: The stock is on its way.

CDC'
Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 14:49:45 (ZULU)

SSG Mac....We have to carry our AR's in the case, in the trunk, with mags out and chambers empty. And you can't convince any of the 3-watt bulbs running the Department that it's a recipe for disaster. Of course, I just ignore all that, and keep it in the footwell on the other side of my MDT, mag in, chamber empty, Aimpoint on. F*** 'em, it's my life. Of course, I won't have to face an Article 15, but close to it. In any case, ETS is 3mos. 12 days. FIGMO.

I had the weirdest thing happen to me yesterday. I was JWA, FD&H, doing my daily ruck, when three wild turkey hens walked out of the woods and started pacing right alongside me. I'd stop, they'd stop. I started lecturing them about walking with strangers down a country road, they just started making a weird sound and kept walking alongside me. Staring at me. I started thinking of the raptors in "Jurassic Park". Out-freakin'-rageous. I was carrying my big walking stick, they didn't seem to notice. Wonder if they'll recognise a Winchester 1300?

Finger....LMK about the deer. I'm up for it.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 16:02:41 (ZULU)

Soldiers with unloaded weapons: It's a vicious circle - they're not safe because they're not used to carrying loaded weapons 24/7, and they're not carrying loaded weapons 24/7 because they're not safe. And, of course, they're not properly trained, either.

Charles: I had two flocks of wild turkeys - about 8 per flock - running down the caliche road on the ranch the Monday that first cold front came through. They're around here, but we don't often see them. I like having them around.

Had a BIG bobcat cross the pasture about 400 yards to the east of the house the other morning right about sunset. Being up and about early often brings unexpected pleasant surprises.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 19:12:27 (ZULU)

Sat country:

Can someone point me to an open-source "recent" sat picture of KAF?

Co-worker and I were discussing the amount of infrastructure that must be clustered around that oasis spot about now. Wanted to take a casual lookie.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 22:27:01 (ZULU)

AR15 pattern (M4/M16) Magazine Safety Block - $US6.50

http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16326

Designed to be used with bolt open, but a hacksaw would make it into just a nice mag well dust cap that can be dumped with the magazine release.

No confusing it with a part of a magazine, you could probably even find it afterwards if you were still in the general area later.

Sad that it would come to this...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 22:42:03 (ZULU)

Out away from the Bn FOB, out at the coy CP's, everyone carried in condition 1, 24/7. There were no ND's. On the Bn FOB, where you went from 4 to 1 or vice versa when going out or coming back from patrol, there were several ND's due to people thinking they had a "safe" weapon.

Normal SOP for a non-douchebag Marine was some hazing, a metric shitload of remedial training, a pro forma NJP entered in the (deployment) SRB with all punishment suspended and he went forth and sinned no more. Since we just took SRB shells overseas, that paperwork got lost on the rotation home unless the Marine continued to be stupid. By and large, I look at the problem as one of our consistant and long term undertraining finally coming home to roost. While I don't especially blame the individual Marine for what is mostly a leadership failure, at the same time, you can't just say " that's OK" and pat them on the head like a slow child either.

Of course, when we had down time, and the vehicles and gear were all clean and PM'd, we'd go hit the little 30m range we had on base and get some live fire in. Or we'd shut down a road out on patrol and use that instead:) S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 23:47:45 (ZULU)

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