Sniper Country Duty Roster

Click. Damn good fighter whuppin' a crowd barehanded.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Thursday, September 20, 2007, at 11:51:57 (ZULU)

CDC - I just sent you a link to a pair of Swaro bins for sale on another site...no attachments in the email. If the roster email doesn't work, let me know. The items are not mine and I don't have any connection with the seller...caveat emptor

medicjim
Thursday, September 20, 2007, at 17:40:41 (ZULU)

Ref: Strap Hangin'

I'm in KC hanging our at GA Precision and Badger Ordnance with the guys. Their new facility is nice with plenty of room to work.

As some of you know George was a K9 Cop and still has "Rocky" his working dog. This animal is amazing....and a little scary.

I visited a Class III dealer with Marty and the guy opened his vault for me and said, "Enjoy yourself." and went back to his office. It was fantastic!

Oh well, today we're driving over to Sierra for a visit. These "business" trips are so exhausting ;-).

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad)
Kansas City, MO, USA - Friday, September 21, 2007, at 10:35:01 (ZULU)

Blackwater back at work!!

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, September 21, 2007, at 19:10:54 (ZULU)

Kevin, That sure sound's nice. I just spent a week in Wausau commissioning a new USARC and I still need to go back at least another week or two.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 00:09:35 (ZULU)

Hey everyone just a little update here. I am going to be starting leave on 26 Sept and then 31 Oct I will be retired and yes I know it sounds weird that a 23 year old guy is saying that he is retiring from the Army but hey crap happens.

For everyone going to sniper Quest I hope I get the chance to meet you when I stop by on my why to the old man's house where me, my wife and three children will be staying for a little while. Man Sarge must really love me and my demons (yes that includes my wife) to let us live with him for a while.

Well that is all I got for now.

Sarge Jr

"Over and Out"

Sarge Jr.
HAAF, GA, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 03:22:13 (ZULU)

Who makes the best one piece base for a Mauser 98 Large ring? I need one without the holes already drilled, as the back screws are 1/2 a hole off from all the bases I've found.

Also, for all you Doctor types, is there anything that can be done about a twisted pelvis? My physical therapist says mine's twisted to the point that my left leg is an inch or so shorter than the right, and I have burcitis in my left hip. I can't hardly mow the lawn anymore. If I hafta be in a cast for a year, it'll beat another 40 years being crippled.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 04:01:37 (ZULU)

Travis,

Will two piece bases fit? I don't know of any one piece Mauser bases that aren't already drilled. One thing that can be done is to epoxy screws in the holes that are off. After the epoxy cures grind off the screw heads. You can then re-drill and tap the receiver. It actually works quite well.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 14:01:18 (ZULU)

Travis...

CAn't mow the lawn, and you're complaining??? Get the surgery. Later, when other junk starts breaking down, at least this one will be history.

As to the mouser... I have been there with several customers rifles.

First, I would seriously recomend a two piece base - it will make life soooooo much easier.

But, if for some secret reason, you must have a one piece base, then get one of the better ones like Leupold, then file the holes in the base to match the holes in the action... DON'T EVER TRY TO MOVE THE HOLES IN THE ACTION...

... if you do, you will soon learn the true meaning of "Oh shit, why did I start this!!"

Oblong-ing the holes in the base is easy if you have a drillpress... if not, take it to a local 'smith.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 14:38:26 (ZULU)

more bad news about Blackwater:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j5bT6zBuFB23rj9mMRTJbqC0xHYg

WASHINGTON (AP) — Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 23:45:25 (ZULU)

When anyone manages to get out some bad news on the "mercenaries" (and there is a LOT of hate out there for anyone who carries a gun for a living)there will be more that jump on the bandwagon. I doubt, seriously, if the management at BW would countenance gun smuggling to earn a few thousand dollars and risk a multi-million dollar contract. Use salt. Lots of it.

On a lighter note, I had my second grandson pop into this world yesterday. Draelen Lorne, 7lb, 1oz, 19.5 inches, and cute as hell. Good lungs. Big feet! 11B. Mom, my youngest little girl, is doing well. When the hell did she get out of braces and get all grown up? Sheesh.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 01:48:38 (ZULU)

Charles...

>" When the hell did she get out of braces and get all grown up? Sheesh....."<

They do it when you are shooting out at the range... they'll do it every time. Last week, Ruggus Rattus use to sit on my lap in his Oshkosh overhauls, and I told him bed time stories...

... this week he is 6'2, and wants to see girls nekid.

;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 03:08:15 (ZULU)

>>>... this week he is 6'2, and wants to see girls nekid.<<<

Takes after his Dad, huh...?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 03:38:54 (ZULU)

Since things on SC have been kinda slow lately, I thought I'd bring up a real killer subject.

Cleaning Riffles.

YOU CAN'T!!

I mean you really can't get a riffle barrel really clean!!!

Here's how I have come to this conclusion...

Now, I'll be the first to admit that my riffle cleaning duties have been, well, sorta given short shrift.

I'm sure that a psychiatrist would say that it comes from a latent resentment related to cleaning my room when I was 4 years old, or some kind of other deep seated psychological complex like that.

But my Rum drinking buddies would tell you in simpler terms, "'lito is just plain lazy!!"... and you would have saved about a million dollars in shrink fees.

Well... I'll fess up to the lazy thing when it comes to cleaning riffles.

I usually run a wet patch, then a bunch of brush strokes, and another wet patch, and a dry patch.

If it looks kinda clean (a little gray on the dry patch), I say, "What the hell" and pack it in.

Well... a few weeks ago, I restocked a 40-XBBR riffle that should have shot better. It shot OK, but for a heavy benchrest type riffle, it was a little light in the loafers. Ran around .3" to .4" with V-Maxs... it should run half of that.

The stock on the riffle didn't fit worth a damn, so it is now in a much better stock.

All of this leads to cleaning.

I decided to give the riffle a "full court press" in the cleaning department, so I could start from "scratch", so to speak.

I mean get it down to raw, clean steel - no gray on a patch, no blue on the patches... no matter how long the barrel was wet, nothing could come out on it.

OK??? At the same time, I decided to include a few other bench grade guns that had lost their edge, long before their time.

Well... it has been two weeks.

I have run patches, and brushed my barrels until my hands were bare to the bone... I have plugged the chamber and filled the barrels with all kinds of "stuff"... toxic chemicals that are 'posed to clean barrels, remove warts, and cure syphilis.

Getting the black "gook" out was not too big a chore... at the end of the first day, there was absolutely no black stuff left. It took three or four sessions with #9, but when it was gone, all of a sudden it was GONE - no tapering off... just lots of black shit, then "poof" none of it. It came out with Hoppe's #9.

Oddly enough, it appears that the black gook covers much of the jacket fouling in the barrel, because when the barrel was soaking in the beginning, a lot of black stuff came out, with a little copper... but once the black gook was completely gone, the patches came out really dark green - like "Hunter's Green". And not just stripes, but the patches were solid dark dark green.

So I kept wetting the barrel with #9, and letting it soak, wet, for a few hours. Then wet patch it again, and Bingo, dark green patches.

The #9 was working fine, but I thought I would go to warp speed to get this damn thing over...

So I decided to soak the barrels over night with "KG-12". For those that don't know what KG-12 is, it's one of the most aggressive brass/copper removers that's available. Go here:

http://www.eabco.com/KG12Test.pdf

For a given amount of time, KG12 will remove 200 to 300 times as much copper as "Sweets", or the other "big guys"!

So I soaked the barrel over night, and ran a patch through it in the morning... so far, lookin' good - "WHITE"!

So I ran a patch with some #9 through the barrel ,and came back in the morning, and MY GOD... Blue streaks. Same in the other three riffles that were undergoing my latest "project".

So I have plugged the barrels again, and the riffles are getting a good soak.

But I fear that in the morning, there will be some blue on the patches.

I won't quit, but it may be a long winter...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 04:01:54 (ZULU)

Blackwater employees and gunrunning:

What I understood from the AP news story and other coverage broadcast in Canada was that the gunrunning was the action of a few employees, w/o the knowledge of Blackwater mgmt. The investigation isn't done, so there may be further developments.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 06:00:02 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Have you tried the bore foams, such as Wipeout or Outers? It workie good here. Also I've found VFG felt plugs work ok for scrubbin, but would work very well if they were about 2" long..

Guys,

I put in my notice here Friday, looks like Lady Liberty is getting her native son back. Ripped me apart making this decision, the UK has been very kind to me and I consider it home. The way of life suits me, the people are brilliant, my crew is outstanding, and the friends I've made here are life long. But, good gigs sometimes lead to opportunities that you have to grab by the ball sack. Can't get into much detail, but it's an awesome gig bringin me home. And it would have taken nothing less than to do so.

take care,

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 11:15:24 (ZULU)

JR...

I haven't tried the foam stuff, but according to the tests that have been done, it doesn't remove copper as well as KG12.

I will test them at some time soon, but I'm not optimistic about them.

What I have found, is that cleaning the black goop is a separate operation from removing copper.

While some cleaners (like #9) will get both... the black goop must be removed COMPLETELY, before you get to serious copper removal.

I think the black stuff is like a layer of paint in the barrel, covering most of the copper.

It needs physical agitation to loosen it. So far as I know, as it is not dissolve-able with simple water based, "biodegradable", compounds. (Bravo, feel free to pitch in here ANYTIME, dudeski :))))

Counter to what many say, it is not carbon, though it does contain some small amount of carbon... it is made up of primer residue, a little carbon, and the deposited intermediate decomposition products of nitrocellulose, which are chemically very complex.

I have a feeling that the black goop might dissolve with Acetone and ether, which are the solvents used for nitrocellulose during manufacture, but that's a little extreme (chemically speaking wise), and the black goop is not the hard part to remove... it's the copper down in the corners of the lands/groves... it keeps coming and coming and coming and coming... whoops, sounds like a porn flick ;)

Anyway... congrats on coming back to the USA... I think.

It's going to be a culture shock, coming back after all those years in God's country, where you did't have to lock your car or your house, to come to a place where all the houses have bars on the windows to keep the "Socially challanged" out of your bedroom at 2 in the morning.

And even if you weren't in the UK... just moving from SoDak to the "new state" would be a culture shock. I once thought of moving there, and went to see what it was like... Ugh! It was like NYC on Geritol ;)

But there are nice places there - you didn't tell me what town you would be in.

I'm ready for a visit... I got an A-- B--t to bring with me. HA ;)))

Stay cool.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 11:51:18 (ZULU)

Lito,

Regarding the KG 12, I've both seen the tests with coins and have tested the product here on the real thing. Cleans a penny up nice. But not as impressive on boomsticks as one would have hoped..Still have half the small bottle I got 5 years ago, wipeout and outers(forrest bore foam here) with some SC prep scrub kick KG's ass. Maybe I got in a weak batch. The KG carbon remover seems to work better or as it should than the 12 imho..200-300 times better Cu removal my ass is what I got to say..

You're right, got to remove the goop before can get to the copper, then more goop, then copper, then steel.

I grew up a miners brat in the prime of Dad's Chevron, Harrison Western, and Gulf Mineral days, and we moved around the country with his job quite a bit til settling down in SoDak. And then he started the business where we personally delivered dad's pumps to all the mines around the US via white cargo van..I've seen territory, by the time I was 14 had all ready been topside 40 states..When it came time in school to name state capitals, hell I'd driven thru most of 'em so it came easy, often asked if they wanted the street the capitol building was located for extra credit..

But this one is different. I guess at the end of the day I can say I conquered Europe for a while. Left due to a knighthood..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 12:37:13 (ZULU)

Lito

I'm going through the same thing right now. If you what to compound the problem borrow a bore scope like i did. That will really drive you nuts. I scoped that 243 i bought , after looking down that barrel i thought i'd check all my guns, what a surprize i got. I know what i'm going to be doing this winter, and i think it starts with ELBOW GREASE. I bought and do like KG Carbon Remover, you can go to kgindustries.com if you want to check out there products.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 13:22:01 (ZULU)

Barrel cleaning:

I've been told by a reliable source that there is copper in the pores of the steel, not just in the corners of the grooves, and that removing it won't make the rifle shoot better, and sometimes makes it shoot worse. That statement was said to apply to match-grade barrels, not the $8 factory crap best used as tomato stakes.

I've never owned a barrel worse than the barrels on my HBVs, which I think are Wilson, and are pretty good, so I can't say about the really bad stuff.

I don't try to get all the copper out of my barrels - just clean them up enough to keep shooting well. Works, so far. My AI with 7,000+ rounds down the tube is still consistently the same half minute it shot after break-in, and I don't need more than that.

Good luck with your project.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 13:24:42 (ZULU)

Lindy...

>"I don't try to get all the copper out of my barrels - just clean them up enough to keep shooting well. Works, so far. My AI with 7,000+ rounds down the tube is still consistently the same half minute it shot after break-in, and I don't need more than that."<

This thing started with trying to clean up a bunch of BR grade rifles, and I discovered that they were dirtier than I thought... which is why (I think) that they were not shooting as well as they should have. :(((

Then, as I went on with it, I found out stuff about cleaning that I never knew - JR is right - the black goop goes, and then copper, and then, if you keep going, you come to more black goop... then more copper... so running a brush and patch through, until you get a "clean-ish" patch, means absolutely nothing... there could be 7 layers of crud still in the barrel.

For example, I have been working on a 40-XB single shot with a stainless steel barrel... it was looking good yesterday, so I gave it a soak over night, and ran a patch through it this morning, and there was a hint of gray... so, just to be certain, and because I promised myself that I would get them so clean that nothing would come out, I thought I'd run a brush through it just to get the "last bit" out...

... well, another bucket of black goop came out... as bad as the first. The shit never stops coming out.

I feel like I'm mining the damn shit!! Matbe there's some resale value in it ;)

There is a good chance that many of my rifles have new barrels, and I didn't know it, cuz the bullets have been riding on a 1/4" of copper and black goop for years!! ;)))

Anyway... this has become an educational project.

I remember when the electric bore cleaners came into vogue (and went just as fast). I never understood when they weren't successful, as it seemed like such a good idea.

A friend(?) tried to sell me his for about $145. Since he is anal retentive, I thought there must be something wrong here...

Now I have learned that you can't get the copper out if it's under the black stuff, and the two may be layered like a cake. I have worn out 5 brushes so far on two .224 bore rifles... "worn out" means that you can stop the brush in the middle of the barrel, and change direction of the rod, and the brush WILL follow along, instead of jaming and refusing to move back... the brushes are so worn that you can push the brush through the bore with one finger on the rod... not a good thing (Martha told me so) :((

I don't need to get the copper out of the "pores", but if you have cleaned it well enough to get it out of the corners of the lands/groves, it will come out of the pores anyway... but the first bullet will put back a minuscule layer that will fill the pores in the steel, so I'm not worried.

Maybe this will qualify as a PhD thesis??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 15:58:52 (ZULU)

I got a question for youz bums (JR in particular).

Back when a lot of the guys on this site were shooting the Carlos Hathcock matches down at Storm Mountain in WVa, the caliber of the day was the 308. Not by rules so much, but it was kind of a gentleman's agreement.

There were a few newbees that had bigger guns, mostly Rem PSSs in 300 WinMag, but they didn't place fer shit, cuz they got their ass kicked by their own riffles (ouchie!!).

At the last match I went to, along with a lot of the guys here, the UnDude, PeteR, and Ken Hunter included... we were whipped by a couple of Swedish snipers that came across the pond to show us "How it is done"... and, man, did they show us how it was done - they killed everything and everyone in sight, and walked away with most of the goodies. They both shot 300 WinMags in AI frames

So I decided, "The hell with that shit, I'm gonna have a bigassed riffle next year". So I got a cream puff Rem 40-XB action and set out to build the ultimate M-24, in 300 WM. And the guy that ran the matches, banned 300 Win Mags :(((

But to the point of this... the guy that put the barrel on my 308 M-24, was damn good, and the rifle is outstanding (the one that shot the computer disk at 405 yards:

http://www.snipercountry.com/images/Pablito-M24-0.46-target.jpg

... so I called him and asked him if he would put a 300 Win Mag tube on my action. He said he had a 28"x1.25"x0.90" pig fat barrel that would just the ticket, but he wouldn't tell me who made it. I asked him why, and he wouldn't tell me that either :(((

But he did say that if I didn't like it, he would put a new Shilen on for free.

The "free" part sounded great, so I sent him the action, and when it came back two months later, the barrel "looked" real nice - I mean it was stainless and shiny, what else can you tell by "looking" at it.

So I built the rifle, and the barrel was out-friggin-standing.

It had no bad habits, no "nodes" (if you believe in that voodoo shit)... it NEVER shot a group larger than 0.4" and as the loads were increased, the groups slowly moved higher and higher on the target - it was like a computer program, and not like "real" riffles, with "quirks and personalities".

Now... the guy that barreled the gun is no longer with us, and I'd like to know who made the barrel.

Now here's the thing... it is a 10" twist, 12 groove, heavy 308 cal barrel... there can't be very many guys making a 12 grove 30 cal, top end match barrels.

Anyone got a clue on who made the barrel??

JR, come on in here mang, I need your wisdom!

See what happens when you start cleaning riffles... it ruins your life, Jim!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 17:13:18 (ZULU)

It is hard to say 'Lito, at one time everyone was playing with all sorts of combinations for 308, I know I had 12 groove 308 buttons when I was at HS, but most were in benchrest twists of 14-17 twist..And I'm not sure if they were from Bill Atkinson or the old A&M or picked up from an auction or what. Are there any significant markings on the outside of the barrel? A lot of the buttoneers we know today were just starting up in the 80's and early 90's, and may have very well went with a 12 groove count at some point just to get barrels out, as it's easier to pull a 12 groove 308 button than say a 4 groove. Or they could have been supplying a manufacturer, like Marlin, and ran some spares..I'd have to check some sources eh..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 18:03:40 (ZULU)

Rod: This story smells of inflation: There are a myriad of regulations regarding guns crossing borders in the middleeast---mostly covering uniformed service members by invitation only. That leaves a great big NO for anyone else wanting to move armed folks about. There are small ways around this here and there, usually thru DoD doing the moving for you...but this too left much room for improvements.

So, what happened for a while was "we know but don't need to know how you got these weapons here"--all from sources far and wide (HK 416s in the stan are but one example--straight from the EU)...

The ever evolving mission and needs of contractors made the need for upgrading weapons outpace the ability to do so thru existing regs. ALL knew this, and ALL "got it done" anyway.

It was just accepted...by DoD and the affected company alike.

Add to this a random (if at all) captured weapon showing up in the hands of a terr...example? What happened to the four BW employees' weapons in Fallujah back in early 04 after they got strung up?

One thing I know for certain on 5 specific contracts: The contractors have better accountability over firearms than the US uniformed services do. I say that because of the "stay behind" mess we use to transfer proprty within theater from unit to replacing unit. That mess included M4s that float to units with A2s...and that is a huge mess---huge. Add to that mess the Iraqi give aways without serial numbered placement---and the Government itself created a monster.

I know a guy who hand built his war weapon from parts found in the trash, making a combo that shot damned good (grin)---and that fact mentioned here previously ought to clue folks in on how bad we are wasting money...and how easily we are giving crap away to those who would do us harm...

Anyone trying to blame contractors for arming badguys is sorely underestimating the scope (and the blame line) of the real problem.

Another thing we don't see every day is the "subcontractors" hired in-country to do things like cook and clean. The base (whereever) vets a bunch of locals, and the end-user (for lack of a better word) gets their corporate Logo placed on the locals pass badge.

If they later turn out to be bad...well, do you trust the media to make any distinctions?

Speaking of misdirection: A local leftist loon radio host used the Blackwater shutdown to slam the surge: "If Baghdad is so much safer now, why did the State Department suspend all travel for it's people there?" Because, dumbass, the security that they travel with since 2003 got suspended...but that was not even thought of by this clown.

It is to the point where no opinion on either side of this issue canbe trusted at face value. That is unfortunate, since Americans are such pisspoor researchers of truth. Which, in turn, stems from a lack of education.

heheh, round and round we go...and it all comes back to "progressive policy"

Travis, the pelvis is not twisted--your spine is. My left leg is only 1/2-3/4 inch shorter, depending on which doctor i want to believe. But a careful examination of my spinal xray will show assymetric compressions that mean nothing individually, but collectively turn my spine slightly. A chiropractor (out of pocket) did a great baseline analysis to get the "army docs" to finally consider looking at this cause. "Oh" they said...Sometimes the non traditional medicos have a more open mind than the traditional docs. May want to go see a good chiro in your area...or give me a holler and I'll give you my guy's name and number. |If you and I have similarities in our conditon, he will pick up on that quickly and steer you in the right direction for treatment. For now, I mow the lawn and drywall ceilings due to his bashing my spine!

Joe M
Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 18:05:23 (ZULU)

Match calibers: The .308 is dead.

At the Sniper's Hide Cup we shot here in the spring, there was one .308 in the top 10. The rest were some variety of .243, including 6mmXC, or .260s.

The problem with the .300 WM is the recoil, which the calibers listed above don't suffer from. The .300 WM, though, is great, if you put a suppressor on the end of the barrel, or a muzzle brake, though the brake will make you unpopular with fellow competitors. Otherwise, the recoil will inhibit your ability to make fast subsequent shots and/or followup shots.

Another very good cartridge, used by George Gardner to win a recent ASC, is 7mm WSM.

Another now-essential feature of a match-winning rifle is detachable magazines. That can be something in an AICS, or using Badger's DBM hardware. Trying to go fast with a top-loader is too much of a handicap.

Now, having said that, I'm still shooting a .308, because I consider a match to be a test with the rifle and gear we train people on. If, however, you have your heart set on winning a match, pick another cartridge from the list above.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 18:57:28 (ZULU)

JR...

No markings on the barrel other than the caliber marks by Tom (the fellow that fitted it). I guess I should say it is a 10" twist, but I think you figured that out by the caliber (not a 300 WinMag benchrest gun ;))).

It's a shame that sniper matches are going that way... something wrong with a .243 sniper riffle!!... the gun should be able to knock something over, not just make a "splat" on a steel plate, or a hole in a cardboard target.

If you need detachable magazines, it seems like it's a spotter's match, not a sniper's match... then you need a AR-10, or a M-21/M-25.

Snipers don't shoot that fast or that often from one FFP.

Maybe a selector switch would be nice, ya thunk???

Harumph!

Humbug too!

In the midst of my new found religious calling (The Gods of Gun Cleaning), I came across two Unertl 2" scopes that I bought for parts a few years back... and I spent the afternoon making a like new Unertl 15x 2-inch Ultra Varmint, with return to battery spring and BLACK MOUNTS (very rare!!).

I got a riffle just waiting for it ;))))))))))))))))

Cleaning is good! (Just ask Martha!!)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 22:04:20 (ZULU)

OK, Cleaning Country: Be very careful with any ammonia-bearing cleaning solvent. Having heard that Sweets 7.62 is the bee's knees for removing copper, and having a PacNor match '06 that seemed to copper foul much too easy, I took to soaking the barrel (overnight even)....it sure came clean. And the accuracy went away, so when I had it rebarreled, I had the smith cut the barrel longitudinally to see what's what inside...looked like the grand canyon...from solvent etching, not from "fire checking"/throat wash, whatever.

I do believe that copper is a component of barrel steel...for machinability (along with molydenum and maybe a pinch of lead)..anything that will dissolve copper will dissolve your barrel eventually.

Easiest barrel I have to clean is the one on the FN SPR...chrome lined. Toughest one is the Ruger No.1 in 275 Rigby (I call it that to get the "what the hell?" look). Much easier since running Tubb's final finish bullets through it...figgered I couldn't hurt it.

Now I use remclean on a brush, followed by Kroil, followed by WipeOut... looking at the muzzle I see no copper wash a-tall. Now I don't have a borescope...would be too expensive since I'd spend all my time cleaning and rebarreling things, but I have no qualms about getting "good enough" clean and accuracy stays.

'Course, I'm not a benchrester looking to put 'em in the "ones" at 200. I tend to use riffles that I can pack in the country.

Just my <.02 worth.

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 22:15:24 (ZULU)

'Lito said, "Snipers don't shoot that fast or that often from one FFP."

I'm afraid that turns out not to be the case.

The real world currently inhabited by military snipers is more accurately characterized by "running gunfight" than by "one shot, one kill." Gunny Hathcock is dead, and so is the sniper world he knew.

We train 'em here, and they come back, and tell us what they did, and how they want to be trained when they come back. One recent group, due back shortly, wanted to work inside 800 yards, multiple-target multiple-distance engagements - with no shots taken prone.

And that's what they get - because some of them have been deployed more than six times in combat zones, and they know what they need lots better than we do.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 22:33:00 (ZULU)

Well.. yeah but!

I guess it splitting hairs, and guys DO have to train for the sandbox they are expected to perform in. Seems like what they are doing is more the roll of the spotter or DM, in a MOUT environment.... id est, Long range firefights.

Not that it makes a difference. As long as the other side has losses ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 22:54:26 (ZULU)

Lito - Thos two Swedish snipers were shooting issued AIs, and they were both chambered in .308 (I traded for the brass). I actually swapped emails with one of them for a few years as his GF came to NYC to study. Tony Yackawski was the one with the 300WM that cleaned the UKD course.

On sniping - What works in Iraq is one thing. I suspect if the US mil wholly adopts that doctrine, the next time our buys get in a fight with a skilled sniping opponent, we may lose a bunch of them.

medicjim
Monday, September 24, 2007, at 02:10:59 (ZULU)

The formal title of Marine Corps snipers is Scout/Sniper because the gathering of intelligence was traditionally more important than the role of killing high-value targets.

Now the intelligence gathering is going more toward "technical means", like the Dragon Eye UAVs of the Marines, manned aircraft including helicopters and Spectres with FLIRs, thermal imagers and other sensors, and other platforms. And the killing of high-value targets may be done by precision guided munitions - especially at long distances.

There is still a role for the lone long shot - and all of the services with snipers still train for it - but its importance is declining.

An example: the service schools still teach construction of Ghillie suits. A recently retired Special Forces sniper told my boss that he had built his in sniper school, and carried it throughout his career - and never once wore it.

Urban hides are more important than the traditional ones dug in the ground - because that's where the fight is.

The times they are a'changing - and so is the role of military snipers. The military is still trying to fight 4th Generation opponents using 2nd Generation techniques - but they're catching on. Reading the Small Wars Journal is illuminating. So is talking to the guys doing the job.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 04:11:23 (ZULU)

from Small Wars Journal:

All Hands On Deck – Radically Reorienting Private Security in Iraq

(written in late August 2007 before the latest wave of press interest in Blackwater).

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/09/all-hands-on-deck-radically-re/

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 05:13:35 (ZULU)

Cleaning Country...

For the black goop use Slip 2000 Carbon Killer.

For the copper use Pro-Shot Copper Solvent IV.

Both products work very well. At least according to my borescope.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 05:23:46 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Yes, the spine IS twisted .... in addition to the other stuff. I have 3 fractured vertebra, (by last count) a bunch of broken ribs, a torqued sacrum, and a tailbone that pops, since I've broken it so many times. Oh, yeah, my hip pops outta place, too. (It generally only happened when I'd spur a bronc too high on the neck.) Next time you're watching a rodeo, study the bareback bronc riders kinda close. That'll explain why the tailbone/pelvis thing happened. It's also how I broke my back.

P.S.-Remember to send me pics of those holsters/gunbelt you want.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, KS., USA - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 06:17:54 (ZULU)

Patton said something like, "If the men at the front request something that you know they don't need, move Heaven and Earth to get it to them."

If they want training in XYZ, train them in XYZ.

medicjim: Thanks for the Swarovski link. I'm looking for the 15X56.

CDC'
Monday, September 24, 2007, at 10:27:53 (ZULU)

Do any of you gentlemen know anything about hearing enhancers such as the "Walker's Game Ear" line of products?

CDC'
Monday, September 24, 2007, at 10:43:41 (ZULU)

CDC:

I use the Peltor Tac 7 electronic ear muffs. I got them for hearing protection, but they will also amplify sounds as well.

http://www.aosafety.com/aosafety.com/shooters/products/tac_01.htm

I believe Midway and Dillon (as well as others) also make a set but cannot speak for them. These are bulkier than the 'hearing aid' style you mention...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 13:45:24 (ZULU)

CDC...

The "Walker's Game Ear", is very pricey, but you probably know that by now. $700 each (one ear), or a big whoppin discount - $1,300 a pair for plain ol' analog devices... $2,200 for digital (w/surround sound??).

That's a big "ouchie", dude !!!

What is absent is detailed technical data on cut-off points, amount of gain or amplification of low level sounds below the cut-off point, and suppression of external loud noises, like gun shots. I doubt that they offer much in the way of protection from loud noises.

They have 24 Db suppression muffs for $400, that are visually similar to everyone else's 25 Db suppression muffs for $95-$130. For $190, you can get a pair of Peltor's that do all the regular amplification/cut-off stuff, and have a built in AM/FM radio, and can be hooked up to a two way radio, or scanner...

But they Walker's have the NRA logo on them, so that's good for $50 to the NRA.

Personally, I'd rather get a pair of Peltor's #6s, or #7s, and just send the $300 direct to the NRA/ILA, cuz they can use the money better than the Walker muff peoples!

I have Peltor 6s, and the first day I took them to the range, I was setting up, and talking to some of the regular range rats, and when I settled in to shoot, I noticed crickets were on steroids - I had never heard them before - took the muffs off, and it was dead quiet. On low level sounds, they have 19 Db (~80x) of amplification.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 17:27:03 (ZULU)

I wear earing aids. They are for a high frequncy loss. They are about $6500 dollars a pair. Thank God for VA.

I was told a long time ago to always wear large quality muffs. If you are shooting rifle to wear muffs backed up by plugs if you have a problem pushing them off with the stock.

I was told that you can loose a great deal of hearing off the bone behind the ear if it is left exposed to high decible sounds. That muffs help protect that bone.

When I am on the range I wear my electronic Peltors and leave off my aids.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 18:01:14 (ZULU)

When we have carbine classes here, I wear foam plugs underneath my Peltor electronic muffs - those little M4s are LOUD. I also think that's a good idea whenever you have a high probability of simultaneous shots.

We had a precision rifle class here last week. All the shooters had suppressors. Much more civilized.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 19:11:00 (ZULU)

Lito, a.k.a. 'Gun Cleaning God'

Good info. I hadn't thought of the layering problem. I've switched to nylon brushes, because I thought the bronze brushes were contributing to some of the residual blue/green patches. I have found the bore foam (Forrest, Wipe-out) to be extremely effective in removing copper fouling. I've never tried K12.

As far as solvents, I've never used ether, but I hear it works great. Dunno where you would find it, I think ether might be restricted. Might want to have a fire extinguisher at hand.

Does anyone have experience with laser bore sighting systems? I've read that some of the lasers are hard to see on paper at any significant distance.

Duman
Monday, September 24, 2007, at 20:42:37 (ZULU)

Duman,

You might want to switch back to bronze brushes.The nylon is soft and carbon can get imbedded into the bristles,wich can then act like as an abrasive in the bore....The bronze bristles just break it up and move the carbon out....

My only experience with laser bore sighters is that I seen the pics of what was left of a rifle after one was left in the bore during first/last/only shot fired when someone else tried using one.That answered my question on how well they work.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 23:41:13 (ZULU)

Duman...

I've learned a lot about gun cleaning this past two weeks. It was never high on my lists of stuff to "investigate", but necessity is the mother of something... maybe just a "mother" ;)

Bravo and I have a looooong talk on the cell today (and I wonder why I'm over in minutes every month).

Some of what I have learned as TRUTH, is...

Bronze brushes are necessary, but they DO leave brass in the bore, so you can chase your one tail (or brush as it may be) in cleaning the bore, by brass brushing, patching, seeing filth, brass brushing, patching, seeing filth... Hmmmm sounds like what I was doing a few days ago.

I never believed that stuff about brushes leaving enough copper to turn a patch blue, but I have now witnessed it. I have gotten three barrels down to the bare steel, 12 hour soak with copper remover left nothing, and #9 on a patch came out C-L-E-A-N and white. Then I brushed the barrel five full strokes, and ran a patch through it, and voila, filthy... so filthy blue that it looked black - Hmmmmmm sounds familiar... big time.

So I am thinking that what I thought were layers of black goop, were actually the new bronze I was putting on the bore when I went back and brushed again... I am ordering some nylon brushes with aluminum cores, so I can either confirm or eliminate brass as the source of the repeated black goop, or know that it IS the source of the repeated black patches that I thought were layers.

Also, I was surprised at how fast the brushes were wearing out... that brass/bronze has to go some where... on the bore?? I thunk maybe so!!

But I have also learned that the brass jag does NOT cause green on the patch... it was easy... when the barrel was dead white, I soaked a patch in #9 and put it on the jag, counted to 5, and slowly ran it through... nothing on the patch. Dead white!

So... this is actually giving me some "learnafying". Bravo says the Slick 2000 is bo-damn-datious on the black stuff. And Hoppe's "Extreme" is almost the same stuff and almost as fast.

I'm thinking that I may wind up with a first brass brushing with gook remover, and then using a copper remover with jags and nylon brushes, as a cleaning regimen.

I'm gonna try a few things and go with what works well (not necessarly the fastest), and isn't a pain in the ass.

I refuse to use anything that can damage the barrel, so Sweets is out.

I will try the foam stuff... but I hear that it is messy, and a real bitch in gas guns, cuz the foam gets up into the pistons and into the works.

I don't want messy - I gots enough mess in my life as it is ;))

UnPat...

Keep in mind that whatever is in the black stuff, it won't hurt the bore... you are laying it down, and running bullets over it at 100,000 psi, so if it was abrasive, you would loose the bore in five shots.

It is messy, but not abrasive to steel.

The sky is glass clear, and the moon is the size of a silver dollar...

... life is good

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 02:38:39 (ZULU)

I also discovered that bronze brushes leave copper in the bore. I switched to nylon. To clean them after use, I spray them with a can of brake cleaner under high pressure, and replace them frequently. They're cheap, and worrying about the cost of a bore brush, given the cost of ammo, strikes me as not useful.

To clean the barrel, I soak two patches in Montana Extreme and run those through on a wrap jag to loosen up the crud.

Then 10 strokes up and back with the nylon brush soaked in the same. Then two more wet patches on the wrap jag, then dry patch until clean. Repeat as necessary - but on a good barrel cleaned every couple of hundred rounds, it's not necessary.

Gale McMillan expressed the opinion that he had seen more barrels ruined through cleaning than shooting. I haven't his experience, but what I'm doing seems to be working for me.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 03:50:15 (ZULU)

Don't buy cheap optics: A cautionary tale.

I wanted big binos and bought NIB Steiner 15X56 Bighorns (click my name) off eBay for $450ish. They were easily attached to a tripod adapter but the tubes (?) would sag together and wouldn't maintain the same distance apart. Without realizing that the threads that accepted the tripod adapter were cheap-o plastic, I screwed the tripod adapter screw too hard and the binos' threads shattered. The binos fell to the floor and the hinge shattered. The binos were broken in two.

Steiner said the warranty didn't apply and the repair would be $185. I sent the $$. The binos turned out to be beyond repair so they sent new ones.

Last weekend I took them on a scouting trip. It rained. The binos got a LITTLE spray on them. Now there are water droplets in the right tube.

In the very unlikely event that Steiner makes good on the warranty, this $650 POS will stay someplace safe and dry.

In the meantime, I'm going to sell a highly custom Tac-Ord .223 with a Loopy/Premier 4.5X14 LR scope and a Hart barrel for enough to buy binos that were made to actually use.

CDC'
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 10:01:26 (ZULU)

CDC...

Steiner makes really good bins that are professional grade - you will find Steiner bins on the battle field, on ocean racing yachts, and in the worst places on earth.

But, like most high end companies these days, they have a "consumer" line, which is a product line that they may not even manufacture.

This is the stuff for the casual user that wants a "name brand", but doesn't need the guts of the professional line. Kinda like the Porsche "911" that was made by Volkswagen.

Unfortunately, the bins you bought were in the second group.

My Celestrons are bullet proof, and water proof, and the tripod adapter is solid Aluminum, and bullet proof. They can see the moons of Jupiter.

I finely found them (they were in the back of Mary's closet, where I dare not venture) ;)))

Wanna talk... I have the hots for a pair of 30x100s.

... and you won't have to sell your riffle.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 11:24:02 (ZULU)

Catguy: Since I need something I can "quick draw" and need something field luggable, my heart is set on 15X56 Swaro or Leica. The 8X Swaros I've carried for the last ten years have never failed me and Leica is Leica. But we may be able to work something out.

CDC'
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 13:42:20 (ZULU)

I was talking to Bravo yesterday, and he mentioned shooting at targets at one mile (and more) with his 50BMG, and it got me pissed (not at Bravo!!)

What is the gun friendliest state in the lower 48.

In 3 or 4 years, I'm getting out of this liberal shithole.

I'm looking for a state that has NO gun laws, or at least as few as possible... (Vermont is out... too many librals and too much snow).

It needs to be a place where the local fuzz doesn't look at you funny, and call his boss when you want to register a class 3 weapon, or a DD... it'd be nice if he shot class three and DDs himself ;)

Where you can get an explosives license without blowing the governor. In spite of being a trained blaster in the 60's... I can't get a blasting license in Connecticut, cuz they say that they have enough blasters in the state at the moment (the "moment" has been 25+ years :(((

It would be real nice if there was room to actually shoot these toys (like W-I-D-E O-P-E-N S-P-A-C-E-S).

Snow is a bummer, but some snow might be tolerable. There should be no closed season on varmints (Prairie Dogs, 'yotes, chucks, and liberals).

Any suggestions???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 16:04:56 (ZULU)

Lito,

Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Texas, Wyoming, New Mexico. Colorado is filling up with duck-squeezers and tree-huggers.

Duman
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:14:27 (ZULU)

'lito,

I just happen to know where there are some wide open spaces, and the sheriff just happens to like full auto weapons! Come on out!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:22:13 (ZULU)

Catman,

Come to South Dakota. Only problem is it gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter. You can learn to shoot in the wind too!!(HA)

Hope all is well with you!!!

Pat
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:23:33 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)

What the hell have you been up to??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:24:39 (ZULU)

Bobby... your link no workie...

So far, I gots good invites.

What's obvious is... no comments from east of the Mississippi... Hmmmm there's a message in there for the careful reader ;)))

Lemme hear more guys.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:30:16 (ZULU)

Lito - WVa isn't too bad.

Bobby - Is it really a 2 hour drive to Oklahoma City and 2.5 hrs to Dallas (that's what Yahoo Maps claims)? Are the schools decent? How about internet access?

How far to the nearest "shopping" venue aka "mall" (wife wants to know)?

My job now officially allows me to telecommute 100% (or so they claim)... the entire continental US just opened it's doors to me.... I think.

medicjim
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 18:20:04 (ZULU)

KatWaker: OK, Montana has "light" snow (unless you live way up in the mountains or on the downwind side of a fence), but it do get cold....that aside, its the 4th largest state in the Nation and has a population of less than/right around 1,000,000.... its legal to use firearms on nongame animals after dark outside of big game season....and its legal to hunt with Class III weapons if you're of a mind.

There are certain "liberal" enclaves like Missoula and Bozeangeles, but for the most part, veryvery gun friendly...."shall issue" constitutional provision for CCW, and the Sheriffs I know (Silver Bow and Missoula) are real good guys.

Huntin' yotes after dark with a NVD and Suppressor on a '16? CanDo!

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 19:42:02 (ZULU)

'lito,

The state you are looking for is nirvana..But seriously look to the NW us for more lax gun/explosives laws...Don't know for sure how the Unibomber affected some of the states explosives legis..

MT, ID, NV, UT, NE, SD, MO, OK, NM, AZ, all these states are fairly cool on many of the things you desire. Plus theyre large states, so plenty of room to stretch your legs. You want more room, try Alaska, use Russia as a backstop..hah..East of the Mississippi what is Tennessee like? Know they have some good 1K yd ranges down at Oak Ridge..WV is probably a bit of all right too..

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 19:51:15 (ZULU)

Texas is gun-friendly, and getting more so, having just implemented a law allowing handgun carry in a car without a license, as long as the weapon is concealed and you're not a gang member and not engaged in criminal activity.

Carrying long guns in the car is no problem, either.

Lots of room. AND - no state income tax.

Can't speak to explosive licenses.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 19:55:31 (ZULU)

Youz guys are great!!

Came across one of the silliest guns in the world...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZZui1O7Px0

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 20:28:03 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Well...you can cut the driving time to OKC down some..only takes me 1.5 hours to get there from my house and depending on where you are going in Dallas/Ft Worth area, driving time can be anywhere from 2-3 hours. Schools are good here..small country school type environment,and good teachers. We have DSL internet here where I live, and digital cable TV, so we are stepping in high cotton! Lawton, Oklahoma and Wichita Falls, Tx both have nice mall and shopping, although I Prefer WF.Wichita Falls is only 30 miles away vs. Lawton which is 45. Land prices are cheap, along with nice houses in this area.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 21:01:04 (ZULU)

JR...

>"The state you are looking for is nirvana"<

That's not fair - I'm not looking for "nirvana".

I'm willing to compromise.

I'll settle for Utopia!!

;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 21:36:59 (ZULU)

For some reason or another, the Badlands link doesn't like Mozilla. If you've got Explore, open it up and run the link Bobby has posted. Don't want to miss the cool intro.

Otherwise, try this one. (click)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 21:50:45 (ZULU)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Boone

In a similar vein, many folk tales depicted Boone as a man who migrated to more remote areas whenever civilization crowded in on him. In a typical anecdote, when asked why he was moving to Missouri, Boone supposedly replied, "I want more elbow room!" Boone rejected such an interpretation of his life, however. "Nothing embitters my old age," he said late in life, like "the circulation of absurd stories that I retire as civilization advances…."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 23:57:37 (ZULU)

I think a certain level of civilization is nice. I enjoy being able to find much of what I want in the Wal-Mart about 10 miles away from where we spend much of the year. Electrical power is nice.

On the other hand, some of what passes for civilization is over-rated.

We once lived in a fancy subdivision where one who wanted to paint his or her house had to get approval from the community assocation not just for the color of paint, but for the particular color CODE of a particular manufacturer's paint. Only those on the approved list were acceptable.

That's too frickin' much civilization. And we won't ever again live in a place like that.

I like elbow room, too. I don't want the neighbors telling me what color to paint my house, whether I can put up a tower for my radio antennas, or whether I can burn off my trash or shoot my firearms on my property.

The nearest one is about a half mile away. That's a bit close, but tolerable.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 00:55:43 (ZULU)

Hey Lindy...

You a radio people?? If you already said so, my rum soaked brain forgot it ;)

'lito (K2BK)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 01:06:08 (ZULU)

de AK5N, albeit inactive on HF at the moment. But that might change at any moment...

Actually, I had my HF gear in storage a couple of years ago, because we were living in an apartment. It burned up when a guy cooking meth in his storage unit started a fire which burned the building to the ground. I haven't replaced it yet - but I'm thinking about it.

I burned out myself on HF by working the Transcontinental Corps in Morse, co-chairing the Disaster Communications Committee of the Houston/Galveston Red Cross chapter, and acting as ARRL Section Emergency Coordinator and in RACES - all at once.

Had to cut that out, and did.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 01:21:00 (ZULU)

Cleaning country,

FWIW, In Volume 1, Number 4 of "tactical Shooter" while it was still afloat, M.L.McPherson wrote an article "How to clean a bore: Or minimizing damage.....". Personally, I think it is one of the best articles I have read on the subject.

Pat II
Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 01:44:46 (ZULU)

Morse is a Murtha Franken bee-autch to learn, but once you go thru all that...

I've been thinking about getting a license for some HF fun. May as well, since I have the hard part done already. Prop-theory is straight forward math, and the art of the bounce is just try-try again simple. Well, that is if'n you have the inclination to configure a slant, dipole, or long wire and play the half and full wave game over n over. I suppose a log periodic would negate most of that...but those TV-looking thangs never did fit in a rucksack.

But I can't imagine comms as being anything but easier from my easy chair...and it sounds fun.

Does the BBC still broadcast news? We used to listen to that when we felt like cranking the old PRC70 batteries for no good reason:)

Bobby: Email in bound.

joe m
Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 03:25:43 (ZULU)

'lito,

Come home to Texas...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 03:51:00 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Splash over....Shot out.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 04:21:44 (ZULU)

Click. Don't blink!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks, U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 05:29:37 (ZULU)

Re: Cleaning Bores

A bit belated, here's my $.02 worth.

Regarding use of brass (bronze?) bristle brushes: after all, the bristles main component is copper, so any "solvent" we use to remove copper from the bore is also going to dissolve part of the brush. Am I right on that, or am I mistaken? That was my comclusion after "wearing out" a brass brush after one attempt at cleaning one bore.

Jack D. Martin
So-Central, WA, US of A - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 07:34:02 (ZULU)

AK5N...

Yup... I probably forgot (it's the Rum soaked brain syndrome ;).

At my last place, I had 60 feet of crank up, tilt-over Aluma tower, and enough HF beams to be a crow roost. The current place is much nicer, but all my antennas and tower sections are on saw horses along the garage. :((

Pat-II

I doubt that anyone has that article... maybe you can summarize it?

Sharon...

Darlin' if I went to Texas, and you was strutin' around in your red fishnet stockings, French slit dress, an' showing those lacy red panties, I wouldn't get anything done ;))

Jack D...

>"Regarding use of brass (bronze?) bristle brushes: after all, the bristles main component is copper, so any "solvent" we use to remove copper from the bore is also going to dissolve part of the brush. Am I right on that, or am I mistaken? That was my conclusion after "wearing out" a brass brush after one attempt at cleaning one bore."<

"Am I right on that, or am I mistaken? "...

... you're mistaken!

While solvents do remove copper, it is the ends that "wear away", making the brush have no ability to scour the bore. To eat them away, it would take weeks in the average bore cleaner.

The standard cleaners don't work fast enough to ruin a brush in one cleaning.

I plugged my 12 grove 300WM barrel, and filled it with #9 yesterday, and I'm letting it soak for a day... I'll see how far I can go, without using a brush (if possible).

This bore cleaning thing is starting to look like a high school science project ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 08:57:41 (ZULU)

"Sharron...

Darlin' if I went to Texas, and you was strutin' around in your red fishnet stockings, French slit dress, an' showing those lacy red panties, I wouldn't get anything done ;))"

I just got that feelin'....... like a quart of Tequila comin' up on an empty stomach...

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 09:21:44 (ZULU)

Travis...

Is this site becoming "Insomniacs anonymous"?

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 09:50:37 (ZULU)

'lito

Easy on tha spellin...

>>>Sharron...

Darlin' if I went to Texas, and you was strutin' around in your red fishnet stockings, French slit dress, an' showing those lacy red panties, I wouldn't get anything done ;))<<<

"Sharron" is Sir Wes' bride, I'm 'Sharon'. Small difference...

>>>I wouldn't get anything done ;))<<< AnyONE...?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 13:53:21 (ZULU)

'lito,

Try this site for demographic info:

http://zipskinny.com/

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The foggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 14:00:55 (ZULU)

Catman,

Still kicking, just busy at work, crime is good. I try to keep up on the DR but don't get much chance to post.

I am still shooting as much as possible. Usually try to get out at least once a week. I have been ringing out my 6.5x55 and its doing well but my load was to hot. It matched my 6.5x284 data to within .5 moa at 900yds so I had to back it down some. Trying to save some barrel wear. I have it around the 260s data now so I think thats where I will stay. Hows old yotebait?? I don't see him post anymore and miss RickB too. Take care and keep your powder dry!!

Pat
Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 15:14:34 (ZULU)

'Litosan,

Should get an answer soon on your 12 groove 30 cal barrel..Got out the little black book, hah...

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 19:02:35 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)...

send me an e-mail. Your e-mail (mrbullet@hotmail) no workie.

I hear that the 'yotes from Wyoming to Texas are damn near rotting from the Mange. I've seen some pathetic pictures that look like Mexican hairless dogs, but uglier!

But the real word has it from an expert that it is the Chupacabras that are coming across the borders with all the illegals. Gotta get that fence up!!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 23:20:45 (ZULU)

>>>But the real word has it from an expert that it is the Chupacabras that are coming across the borders with all the illegals. Gotta get that fence up!!!<<<

Open the season up...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 03:06:27 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Enough about my mother in law. She dropped her coke bottle glasses and got lost.

Met a lucky SOB tonight. At the local indoor range, I noticed a guy's blackhawk, and asked him what he had. He says, "Oh, some guns my uncle gave me." (obviously, he's not a gun guy) Turns out, it's an old Blackhawk, alright. .44 mag. serial number 1911! I nearly shit. (No it wasn't for sale) His uncle also gave him a matched pair of Winchester 94's, the .30-30 and the .22. How come it's always the non-shooters that inherit the cool stuff I'd crawl through a manure pit to get?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 06:07:22 (ZULU)

This cleaning thing is going to make me crazy.

On Tuesday, I plugged the chamber on the 12 grove 300WM and filled the barrel with #9, and let it soak for 24 hours. I figured that would be a good test, since I hadn't cleaned it after I last shot it.

Emptied the bore into the catch/recycle cup, and ran a patch through the barrel, and it came out reddish/purple (No, not rust, dummies, it's stainless!!).

Looked weird, so I quickly ran another wet patch through it, and a trace of the same goofie color.

Now, I may not be the best barrel cleaner int he world, but i have cleaned a feww barrels.... and I have NEVER seen a color like this come out of a barrel.

The bullets were 190 SMKs, powder was H-4350SC and H-4831, and primers were CCI BR-2s... nothing unusual.

Anybody have any thoughts? Anyone ever see a patch come out kinda red/purple?

'lito (going slightly nutz).

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 10:52:44 (ZULU)

Sleepy heads check this bag out !!

http://www.kifaru.net/regu_combo.htm

Regards,

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 10:52:45 (ZULU)

Steve,

For $5-700, that thing better make biscuits and blow me every morning.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 11:07:37 (ZULU)

Lito - just a guess, but mercury oxides I think come out red sometimes...I've never seen anything like that come out of a rifle barrel.

medicjim
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 13:59:13 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

It ain't Mercury... there hasn't been ANY Mercury in cartridges in over 70 years. In fact, back in the old days, cartridge boxes used to say "Non-mercuric, non-corrosive" on the front label. (The non-corrosive part was because they had done away with chlorate primers that ate barrels up in 60 minutes).

I'm coming up with a lot of "theories" about this, and the more things I try, the more theories I get.

I "think" that the red/purple stuff is powder/primer fouling after it has been attacked by #9 for some 24-30 hours... and it probably doesn't need that much time.

Now here's what's funny. When I ran the patch through the barrel yesterday, JUST red/purple stuff was on it... no blue/green at all... not even a whisper or a hint.

So I left the gun in the cradle, and ran a wet patch through it. This morning, when I ran a patch through the barrel... it came out real heavy dark blue, with only a hint of the red/purple?.

So... why no blue after 24 hours, when the #9 was soaking in the barrel, then a bunch of blue after 12~ish hours with just a wipe of #9 on a patch??

Of course that's a rhetorical question (for those that live in Rio Linda, that's means it's not expected to be answered).

Damn, I wish I had access to an analytical chemist.

But I'm gonna try the foamy stuff, and Hoppe's "Extreme", and what else I can find that doesn't smell bad... and nylon brushes.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 15:28:54 (ZULU)

Lito,

You're exploring new territory. I've never seen red/purple, though some of the Cu fouling patches I've seen have been deep, royal blue.

Is is possible that the Hoppe's #9, the minute amount exposed to air, experienced a chemical change, like oxidation, and became deep orange bordering on red?

I can't think of a component of stainless that gives rise to an oxidation state of 'red', 'orange', 'brown', other than iron. Vanadium has several states, some are blue/purple. I'll have to google chromium, it's pretty interesting.

Have you done this '24-hour soak' on barrels in the past? With what results?

Duman
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 15:52:56 (ZULU)

Another SWAG at the red color (Cu2O) Cuprous Oxide

http://www.shyamchemicals.com/chem07.htm

medicjim
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 16:23:45 (ZULU)

Duman...

I have soaked barrels in the past, but only AFTER I hit the barrels with a bronze brush. What I HAVE learned for sure (so far), is that bronze brushes do leave copper in the bore. Not a lot, but enough to give the patch a blue color. So after a while (maybe the first brushing) you are chasing your tail if you are brushing and patching, then brushing cuz you see blue on the patch... that's a fact, Jack!!

"maybe"... the solution is nylon/Aluminum brushes, so the only blue you can see is what's rellly in the barrel from the bullets???

Anyway... the barrel soaks in the past have all been contaminated by the first brushing, so they wouldn't show this red/purple, cuz it's kinda faint, even on the first patch.

Each time I try something, I get a result that I didn't expect.

I gots quite a few filthy riffles, so I can run tests for a while. ;))

This cleaning thing is something that I (and probably others) did cuz we learned it that way... or we do it a certain way because the company told us, or we read it in "Guns & Blamo", or some "Guru" told us to do it a certain way.

I don't know why I never heard of the red/purple stuff before, but no one has mentioned it EVER.

So far, all I do know, is that I'm going to change the way I use brushes in the future... definitely a lot less, maybe I'll switch to a synthetic, like nylon.

I think not brushing any more than necessary is a good thing... though, so far, I'm not convinced that there's a chemical only "solution" (a pun, son) to this barrel cleaning thing.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 16:31:27 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

Yeah. Could be.

I think I'll hit up Bravo for some chemical analysis on dead patches ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 16:33:21 (ZULU)

OK...

Here's what I now know on my last barrel.

The barrel is a top of the line 12 groove, custom barrel. It might matter, or might not, cuz top of the line barrels are polished (lapped). A smoother barrel might make cleaning easier (it kinda makes sense).

Anyway... 24 hour soak in #9. First patch had a strong tint of red/purple, 360° around the center of the patch.

Barrel was patched with a wet patch, and left 12~ish hours.

Second patch (wet) had very faint red/purple, and strong deep blue 360° around the center of the patch.

Third wet patch (two hours later) had a few thin blue lines on one side of the patch

Forth wet patch (two hours later) was dead white.

So... barrels can be cleaned chemically (I think). I wish I had some of the nylon brushes to try for a final pass, but they are on order, and won't be here for a week.

I think the 24-30 hour time period can be shortened, but I don't know how much.

I'm convinced (for today ;)), that the powder fouling is not the big time taker.

I don't know why the copper didn't show UNTIL the second patch. Maybe the copper dissolver in #9 is aerobic, and the reaction won't start in anaerobic conditions??

At least I have the 300WM M-24 clean and up on the wall. ;))))

And I gots more filthy riffles ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 17:11:59 (ZULU)

On barrels and cleaning. Metals are microscopically porous. Each time a a bullet goes down a barrel really fast with lots of heat pushing it, microscopic bits of copper get driven into the steel.

By leaving solvents and other cleaning agents in the barrel for a long time, it has a chance to leach the microscopic bits of copper out of the steel.

Is it really necessary to get a barrel pristine? Some barrels shoot better 'seasoned'.

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, Kalifornia, USA!!! - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 17:51:14 (ZULU)

Trajan Aurelius...

>" On barrels and cleaning. Metals are microscopically porous. Each time a a bullet goes down a barrel really fast with lots of heat pushing it, microscopic bits of copper get driven into the steel."<

That's not true... the "microscopic Pores" fill on the first pass... after that, they offer a copper surface to the next bullet... and because of galling, that surface changes on EACH SHOT!

>"Is it really necessary to get a barrel pristine? Some barrels shoot better 'seasoned'."<

I think you have missed the whole point of this thing.

First - the hell with microscopic pores, they are a thousand times smaller than the tool marks that even the best barrels have.

Second - the rubbing of soft metals against each other, under heavy pressure, causes them to "gall"... this means that they make small little odd shaped balls of copper that change position EVERY shot. If the barrel has a bunch of copper on it, and a copper bullet comes sliding down the rifling, it will change the pattern of the copper... and it will change the pattern EVERY shot.

And Martha says "That's a very bad thing".

Third... and MOST important - this is about learning. I know that really rattles some people's cage, but I love to learn, and love to pass on what I learn to others.

IF it troubles you, then don't read my posts, cuz they're mostly about learning and teaching gun stuff... or about Rum, lime jooce, and Women critters (which I know absolutely nothing about, but keep going back for more)!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 18:55:07 (ZULU)

Lito,

"..learning and teaching gun stuff... or about Rum, lime jooce, and Women critters!"

Well, if you figure out the "Women critters", let me know. I recall someone saying "Asking me about women is like asking a fish how to ride a bicycle", which describes me pretty well.

medicjim - good thinking. It raises another question, though, and that is "why haven't we seen this before?" Also, what is the required temperature to create Cu2O? Where's Bravo?

Duman
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 19:24:39 (ZULU)

Duman wrote - "medicjim - good thinking. It raises another question, though, and that is why haven't we seen this before? Also, what is the required temperature to create Cu2O? Where's Bravo?"

I'm guessing it would require enery in some form and less than abundant oxygen...LOL

I would also like to point out that the sun is bright and the sky is blue...

medicjim
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 19:31:47 (ZULU)

Traj: Don't get wrapped around an axle on Lito's curiousity. The way I see it, Lito is curious about stuff that is far removed from what an intermediate shooter needs to worry about---mostly cuz we tread the ground he covered shortly after the last ice age. So the stuff we mere mortals worry over or get curious about was probably invented by Lito following his handing the Chinese his secret recipe for blackpowder.

But, once he has in'vestigatored this topic, he will have a pronouncement on the subject that will be of use for the general shooting public...

By hook and crook, I rehabed the shoulder to draw my bow. At least enough to tune it up and hit within my 4" circles at known ranges from 15-40 yards. This took a bunch of time (day after day), cuz when I started, I was good for maybe five arrows, and now I get sore after about 15.

As soon as it gets cool...I'se gonna fill my archery deer tag (it is too warm just yet). I have an Earn-a-Buck leftover sticker from last year--so I can take whatever walks by:) Meantime, I need to lure the turkeys out of my corn. Or go lay in it and wait for a row crossing and take the snapshot...of course, that is how ya end up with a 15 pounder or a cat. Heheh. They'll come out eventually. Both are LONG seasons:))

I'm shooting a matthews MQ32 with Beman carbon 50/70s (skinny suckers). Good god, this thing drives 'em fast! My old Bear and fat-ass aluminum arrows is now seriously unimpressive. I have a helluva time finding my "short shots" as they will enter the ground right up to the nocks with about a 10 degree incidence. You'd think they'd skip---but they just burrow right into the sandy, hard-packed soil. Wow. Well, thankfully I got the pins set before i was out too much money--and the lost arrows can't hide from Mr. roto-tiller in the spring! BTW, this is about as light and short a Bow as I would want. It is forgiving once you get used to it..but I can't imagine shooting a Drenalin; that little thing compares to the MQ like my MQ compares to my old Bear.

joe m
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 20:07:30 (ZULU)

Lito

the reason we havent seen the red/purple thing before is that, until now, nobody's scrubbed a barrel until it's bruised and bleeding.....LOL

Mark D
London, UK - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 20:46:47 (ZULU)

Mark D...

You made me laugh!!

;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 20:56:39 (ZULU)

Chemistry country

I seem to remember from somewhere in my dim and distant past a red colour being produced in a reaction between nitrates (or nitrites?) and sulphur compounds. But I can't remember quite what they were and my notes have long since disappeared, but that might steer your quest in the right direction. Seems to me you'd have both in gunpowder residue and something in the cleaning agent could easily provide the means to produce the reaction.

I could be wrong but I seem to associate it with bacteria and maybe even Mr Pasteur. Sorry, it was a long time ago.....

I'll go back to lurking now......

Mark D
London, UK - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 21:27:30 (ZULU)

Mark D - Methinks you were right the first time. It's blood!

Duman
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 21:37:59 (ZULU)

Rhodopseudomonas or Serratia marcescens??

Of note... back in medic school, pseudomonas was notable in that it had been isolated growing INSIDE vials of anti-biotic!!...this is some damn tough stuff. Apparently, the rhodo variant will consume sulfites and produce a red pigment....

I'm no expert...so consider this just one more 'punt' to over-complicate and challenge Lito's quest for the truth.

medicjim
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 21:49:28 (ZULU)

Catshooter, Joe M and others. I think I do "get" the cleaning exercise. I have been reading, and learning, from the Roster for along time, maybe 1997. So I know how 'thorough' y'all are. Some of the lessons learned kept me alive when I deployed. Thanks Joe.

The theory of metal being porous is stuck in my head after an explanation by a nuke sub Sailor about why sodium cooled reactors are a bad idea. It seems the sodium makes it's way through the metal and, being radioactive, contaminates the workspace. I was thinking that copper would keep getting pushed deeper into the metal in the bore. That's the Chaos Theory of Cranial Relativity at work.

I shoot a Ruger M-77 with a heavy barrel and a 3x9 scope. It's a .308. I shoot Blackhawk 168g moly's. If I clean it too thoroughly, it takes 15-20 rounds to settle down into the group it was shooting before. I have better luck with my Spanish Mauser, in 7.62mm (all matching serial numbers) and red-dot scope on it.

I have not yet reached the potential of the rifle, mostly because I am still learning about shooting after my Dad taught me in 1970. I do keep records of how I shoot, thanks to the Roster. The best shooting drill I learned was to put a .308 case on the 100 yard line and try to hit it. I do much better when it's at about 75 yards. Best shot so far, 545 yards in wind gusting to 15mph at 2 o'clock at the Sierra Vista Range. The sound of the round hitting the rock was - satisfying.

No doubt by the time we sew up this thread, we'll have an answer about the best way to get squeaky clean.

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, Kalifornia, USA !!! - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 22:34:21 (ZULU)

Say lito',I've got a bottle of that Hoppe's #9 in front of me now

and they have a statement on the bottle NOT to cork up the bore.

Does this stuff need some oxygen to do it's work ???????

Also what part if any would Zinc play in the pretty colors

you get ??

The jacket material is not pure Copper but an alloy with about 5% Zn.

Better living through Chemistry !

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 22:43:22 (ZULU)

Markwell: If you are out there I'd like to ask your opinion on a couple of matters.

CDC'
Friday, September 28, 2007, at 00:49:22 (ZULU)

Lito

Now I'm back home I did some searching and found this. ( the internet is a wonderful thing)

Red pigment related - I was thinking of Prontosil one of the first antibacterial agents which was derived from azo dyes start reading here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prontosil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azo_dye

that should send you to sleep...... it always worked for me when I was at college.

Mark D
London, UK - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 01:10:57 (ZULU)

AR15 maintenance:

One source I've read recommends replacing the bolt gas rings every 3000 rds.

http://www.westcoasttraining.com/OperatorMaint.pdf

Concur or alternate recommendation?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 01:35:58 (ZULU)

Uh oh... we're in trouble now. Ol' Louie Pasture is in the mix.

Ok, I did another riffle, and learned more stuff (I think!)

Tonight, I started (and finished) a 308 M-24. This is the riffle that shot the 0.46" group at 405 yards that I shamelessly post every chance I get (and in case you haven't seen it in the last two days, go here ;)))))

http://www.snipercountry.com/images/Pablito-M24-0.46-target.jpg

Now, I decided not to soak it for 24 hours like before, cuz I already did that, and because I want to find two things... the way to a perfectly clean barrel, and the ability to do it in less that three lifetimes ;)

Also, I apologize for what appears as random testing methodology, but if I was to use the classical "scientific method" of testing, I would only change one variable at a time, and repeat the "experiments" on the same barrel, with the same amount of shots fires, etc, and spend the next four years at this project.

But, in spite of rumors to the contrary, I DO have a life, other than cleaning riffles, so I'm taking a few short cuts, and deriving as much information as possible from each set.

OK... here's what I did with the 308 M-24. I ran a wet patch through the barrel. It came out with dark gray streaks in a 360° circle.

That was expected, sorta.

Ten minutes later, I ran another wet patch through the barrel, and got gray and some blue (but not as much as I expected).

I did another wet patch, and got the same thing... I was a little disappointed :((

So with great scientific aplomb, and all the methodology and techniques of Dr Frankenstein, I got bored with getting patches with a little gray and a little blue, so I hit the sucka with a brush - but this time, only 3 passes (back and forth is "one pass").

I ran a patch through the bore, and it came out filthy... Hmmmm looks familiar!!

So I plugged the barrel and filled the bore with #9.

This time, I let it sit for 30 minutes.

I poured it out and patched it, and voila, it was dead white clean.

Ok... what do I "think" I learned.

1 - There is a powder/primer fouling, whose removal needs (or is helped by) physical shoving with a brush.

I DON'T know if a bronze brush is necessary... a nylon brush might do it just as well (tune in later when I get nylon brushes).

2 - I now know for sure now, that bronze brushes leave a lot of "dirty" looking crap on the patch, convincing you that the barrel is dirty, when it is really just the brush residue left on the bore.

So maybe just brushing at the beginning is necessary, then solvents can do the rest (I think!!).

Anyway... I'm getting closer - it went from dirty to dead steel clean in one hour, instead of 30+ hours.

I am solidly convinced (kinda, a little) that the red/purple stuff is what is left after the chemicals in #9 works on the powder/primer residue for a long time.

This time, there was no hint of the red/purple stuff. It probably came out with the brushing.

Nite nite...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 02:16:06 (ZULU)

'lito-san,

Please keep us posted on your cleaning results. I - for one - certainly find them of interest. Some of your conclusions I have suspected - dirty barrels from brushes, etc...

How goes the battle for/about/over Ruggus Rattus?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 03:44:41 (ZULU)

Sharon... (with ONE "R")

>"'lito-san, Please keep us posted on your cleaning results. I - for one - certainly find them of interest. Some of your conclusions I have suspected - dirty barrels from brushes, etc..."<

I will... I'm learning more than I thought I would.

>"How goes the battle for/about/over Ruggus Rattus?"<

It's taken an interesting turn.

A year ago, everyone was in a hurry to get it done with, cuz his schooling was being hurt. And I was in a hurry too.

Last winter, the "Guardian ad Litem" (court appointed guardian), said that we should have Ruggus Rattus and both parents checked out by a court shrink - I thought that was fine.

So this guy gets appointed, and he seems OK. But the process drags on and on and on and on and on and on and.....

He still hasn't handed in his report, but word has it that he is going to recommend that the Rat is sent off to boarding school (That's a big "FUCK YOU" in my book).

Since I don't have the money, and she claims that she is running a deficit of minus $300 a WEEK (she should get a job with the federal government)... then the only option is a "state boarding school" - we all know what that means. They are called reform schools elsewhere... and the little guy (all 6'2" of him), has never done a damn thing wrong.

So this is confusing to me.

The court has an investigator, and she says that mommy is a congenital liar and lives a dysfunctional life, and the Rat MUST be assigned to me... but I hear that the shrink's opinion is 60% of the judge's opinion :((

But here's the deal.

They have fucked around so long that this school year is toast, so I'm not in a hurry any more.

I spoke to two lawyers that know the system, and they say that the shrink knows she is an unfit mother, but he can't "bring himself to say it in court"... it's that ol' "Mommies are nice, and daddy's are icky" crap. So his solution is just to remove the child, take his $14,000 (yup, fourteen thousand dollars!!!), and run with his tail between his legs.

I also spoke to someone I know who works in the court system with child abusers, and she saw the court papers, and laughed, saying don't waste your time, just wait it out, and file for emancipation.

Man, you wanna talk about a group that needs minority status in this country, it ain't the blacks, it's the fathers.

Anyway... we are still four or five months away from a trial, and we are "Ta-ta"... four months away from his 16th birthday.

On his 16th birthday, he can walk into any court in the state, and file a set of papers for "Emancipation" and it's over. There will be some hearings out of formality, but she has no chance.

So the plan is now to stall, and when he is 16, just walk away from the whole fuckin' thing.

Meanwhile... I am getting the evidence together to file criminal charges against the first bunch, which includes my ex.

I think she will do time - I have hard evidence of witness tampering, conspiracy, perjury, and a bunch more... all felonies with one year mandatory minimum sentencing..

That's where it is... it has been one hellova journey.

A lotta people say I should become a lawyer after what I have learned, and because I am beating them 85% to 90% of the time, and she has three of the top lawyers in the area... but I can't stomach it. It is the dirtiest system I have ever encountered in my life, and I have run into some dirty shit... this takes the prize.

I can't change it, it's too big and too corrupt... and I can't work in it the way it is.

Plus I'm too old for this shit! ;)))

I wanna fix my airboat, and shoot my guns!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 04:25:14 (ZULU)

lito;

If you can tolerate the occassional hurricane, take a look at the central Gulf Coast. Anything between Panama City FL to Gulfport MS is quite comfortable and still a little slower paced than much of the rest of the country. I live in the very middle of this, Mobile,AL. One of my best friends is from Buffalo, he said if he ever gets divorced he's moving back here.

We get about an inch of snow every eight years or so.

Anyway, Alabama has the fewest gun laws of all the states, look in the ATF state laws guide book. In the last governor's race both candidates were approved by the NRA.

In Mobile, if you want to carry concealed, you have to be 23 and have a clean record. You go to the sheriff's office and fill out an application and give them $20. They run your name through the courthouse computer and give you the permit. It takes about 15 to 20 minutes. You can carry in any city/county in Alabama and in states that have recipriocity aggrements. Renewal is by mail at $20 per year.

We have a club about 40 minutes west of Mobile in Moss Point, MS. It has 600 and 100 yard ranges as well as 50 yard pistol line and 200 yard rifle line. We host F-Class, HP, rimfire silhouettes, military surplus, IBS benchrest, black powder cartridge rifle matches as well as NRA qualifications, machine gun shoots and long range clinics.

www.pascagouladcm.com

What do you do for a trade? I'm sure there will be something compatable around here somewhere.

LATER

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 10:33:00 (ZULU)

Trajan...

>"The theory of metal being porous is stuck in my head after an explanation by a nuke sub Sailor about why sodium cooled reactors are a bad idea. It seems the sodium makes it's way through the metal and, being radioactive, contaminates the workspace."<

Methinks this is a (sub)urban myth.

I once had a Norton Manx moto-bicycle - a very, very fast, 500cc single cylinder engine with B-I-G valves.

They were Sodium cooled - that is to say, they were hollow, and had Sodium in them, with some empty space (in vacuum). The sodium was a liquid when the engine was running (melts below the boiling point of water). The liquid Sodium sloshed around in these huge valves, and carried the heat out FAST.

Back in the good old days, when military airplanes had REAL engines, with propellers, pistons and spark plugs... the high performance fighters had Sodium filled valves. It was state of the art for engines that needed to breath, and valves that needed to be cooled.

The Sodium never escaped from the valves. It would be easy to tell, as sodium immediately forms NaOH on contact with air, and that is a white slimy stuff that is hugely corrosive, which then immediately forms Na2CO3, which is a white crusty stuff, and won't go anyplace... and it would be seen by anyone that looked at the engine, cuz the valves were exposed, as were the hairpin coil springs.

Same with a reactor... if the Sodium migrated through the metal, the coils, pipes, and whatever, would covered with a white crusty stuff and it could NOT go unnoticed.

Sodium is a great coolant.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 10:48:42 (ZULU)

My bore cleaning has been: Scrub with brush...solvents for residue...decon/ dry....switch to copper removing. All but the very first step is done with jags and patches. I do not track this per se--but some guns need more of particular steps than others, as we all know.

A late as a year ago, I never minded cleaning guns. It was usually a social occasion in the unit. And to some extent, teaching Blake the assembly, disassembly and care of weapons had a carry over effect of making "cleaning chores" not entirely distasteful.

But now that Blake is older, I'm retired, and no one comes by to clean my guns with me---I find I hate this stuff:))

I am all for the easier ways!

Joe M
Friday, September 28, 2007, at 13:48:23 (ZULU)

Lito,

"They were Sodium cooled - that is to say, they were hollow, and had Sodium in them, with some empty space (in vacuum)."

I would love to see that manufacturing process. I'll bet those valves were pricey.

Duman
Friday, September 28, 2007, at 16:41:38 (ZULU)

Duman...

You betcha they were pricey. The space in them was so the Sodium could get the heat at the bottom of the valve, and then slush up the stem to dump the heat through the stem and into the block/head... kinda like a small circulating heat exchanger built right into the valve.

Aircraft engines have them too.

I have Sodium filled valves in the Lycoming 320 ci engine in my airboat.

>"1. Continental engines have solid stem valves, while Lycoming engines have, mostly, sodium filled valve stems, and..."<

Do a Google search on "Sodium filled valves"... and read up on them.

It's very interesting, and not well known (you can impress all the girls at the office ;)

Jody...

Thanks for the invite, but I have three serious allergies. Floods, Hurricanes, and tornadoes.

I ain't never gonna come home and find my whole life spread all over the state, or everything just plain wiped out... I don't have enough life left to start all over again from scratch.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 16:53:51 (ZULU)

Sodium filled valves- IH used to use those in their schoolbus engines. At the time, a Chevy exhaust valve was about $4, an IH $23.

'Lito-you could always build one of those underground energy efficient dwellings. You know....like the ones Albert Speer built in Normandy:))))))

BTW-beware the statute of limitations on the Wicked Witch of the Far Norths misdeeds.

WR Moore
Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 01:01:58 (ZULU)

WR...

Statutes here are 6 years.... I gots lots of time, she doesn't.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 01:04:20 (ZULU)

Click. These guys are trying to figure out the same gun cleaning stuff you guys are.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 05:37:08 (ZULU)

Joe,

I know whatcha mean. All these neat guns, and nobody else here gives a shit. I'm starting to think my stepson's a fruit, I despise all my remaining male relatives, and my body's too tore up to do my "grab a rifle and pack, then disappear for a month" thing.

On the bright side, I think my wife's starting to inderstand that I go to the indoor range more for the support group aspect than anything else. (although I DO shoot a few hundred rounds while I'm there!)

'Lito,

DO NOT let the boy go to one of those fucking warehouses. I was in one from 16-18, and it sucks BIG TIME. They tell you that if you're good, you can date, go to movies, etc., like a normal kid. They fail to mention you have to blow everyone that works there, AND their dog. I only saw one kid pull that off, and he was the biggest kiss-ass I ever saw. (he later shot off his toe, playing gangsta)

In short, they thoroughly fuck up everyone's self esteem, and pretty much MAKE some kids into criminals. Fortunately for me, I was big enough to whip everyone there when I arrived. (The other kids thought I worked there for the first couple days.) If it comes down to it, put him on a bus, and have a buddy sneak him into Canada.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 10:05:39 (ZULU)

Travis...

HA! - The boys over at the Arms Locker think we're confused???

HEY GUYS AT THE ARMS LOCKER... we've been confused for 10+ years! It's a normal condition over here ;)))

We're just taking a hard look at cleaning and the myths that surround it.

>"I'm starting to think my stepson's a fruit, I despise all my remaining male relatives..."<

I hear that... Jase' is turning out to be a cool guy.

One of his "friends" asked him, "Who do you think is cuter, me or...", and Jase' said, "Hey asshole, Girls are cute, you're not!!"

He's only 15 1/2, but he has a quiet strength about him. A few years ago, I told him I was sorry that he had to go through this shit, and he said, "It's OK dad... If I learn about it now, I won't have to make bigger mistakes later, so it OK."

I've been teaching him about life the way he will hear about it, and about life the way it really is. For example, I tell him about the politically correct crap he'll hear about girls/women being the same as men, and I tell him that women are really not the same. He knows that women have the right to be whatever they want, but he also knows that he has the right to pick the ones that please him (mentally and physically) to his own tastes. And he knows that he doesn't have to put up with crap or rudeness in the name "feminism".

Last night, I made some killer burgers and we were eating out on the porch after dark, and he said, "Daddy, it would be really nice if just you and I could live somewhere like Texas or Arizona, without anyone else! It would be cool to have neighbors, maybe a mile away or something like that. We could shoot off the back porch!"

It has been a full-time battle to keep the "Politically correct" and "Girly-Foo" shit from the schools, separated from reality. At 15 1/2, he already knows... what the school (the newspaper, the TV, etc) says, may not be the truth. He knows that teachers lie, and that they don't always know what they are teaching. He knows that people in power have agendas. He knows to evaluate what someone says, by looking at "where they're coming from". And, Mang... he knows the court system isn't clean.

That guy is well grounded... better than most grown men I meet.

He has no interest in multi-color hair dos, shopping (or shopping malls), or "In style" clothes. He thinks Brittany Speers and the rest of that bunch are assholes, and he has no interest in the Hollywood set.

His values about right and wrong are crystal clear... he doesn't lie, cheat, or steal.

He likes camping, shooting, fly tying, fishing, blowing stuff up, Harley Davidsons, Hooters (restaurants and body parts), nekid women... he's just a plain American kid, 1950's style. (He inherited it from his dad ;).

I could have 20 more just like him, at the same time, and it would be a walk in the park.

Am I proud of him... Naw, he's just a plain kidlet. 'merican style.

;)))

As to those schools... no worry mate. We have it made.

It's now like a basketball game, where you have a one point lead and you're at the end of the second half, and you just got the ball, and there's 26 seconds left on the clock. You don't want to take a chance on loosing, you just want to keep things like they are for 26 seconds.

So for us, it's just a matter of doing some "shuck and jive" footwork in the court house, putting up lotsa chicken shit motions that have to be heard and decided on, "blinding them with foot work" and running out the clock.

On Feb 16th, 2008, we file papers in New Britain court, and he grabs what he needs out of her house, we leave notarized sets of papers at my and her police stations, to be posted on the day board, so she can't claim "missing persons" or "kidnapping", and its over.

The next day, I enroll him in the local school, and life is good.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 12:52:55 (ZULU)

'lito,

Kidlet and situation sound good! Finally...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 13:41:29 (ZULU)

Lito: Most Fathers would think that the "hard part" of the divorce-custody-raising the kid thing is the legal poo-poo. But the hardest part is keeping the kid straight while the Mom begins using the child as an emotional nuclear bomb against you.

It sounds like you defused that bomb, and did all things right with your boy.

That is the only "win" that counts.

Acid to clean a firearm??? At that point, I would have to kick myself hard in the ass and go buy a new one as punishment for my stupidity (for letting corrosion get that far in the first place). Since I haven't had to deal with this problem, I wouldn't know what is possible---but my first inquiry would be in those electral current de-oxidation processes, along the lines of what they are trying on the CSS Hunley. It would have to be a serious artifact for me to bother with any of this at all! I learned years ago, with navel jelly, what acid does to a beer can.

Hey, did anyone else collect beer cans in their youth? In the 70s, this was fairly big...and talk about PC gone awry: Today, a kid would violate "open container laws" and deliquency codes if he tried this same stuff:)) I had thousands of cans--no two the same.

Nickel bullets? Not so far fetched: The ruskies made some hard-assed coatings on a few 7.62x54s in an effort to penetrate armor. One looked for all the world like it was chromed.

Morgue and I did not read ruskie, so we never did figure these out beyond the basic color code "AP" designation---but we knew that it probably wouldn't do the bores any good just on sight:))

Joe M
Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 15:16:29 (ZULU)

Gentlemen: What is the best anti-fog product?

CDC'
Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 20:14:28 (ZULU)

CDC: I always used rain-x or spit:)) But neither was entirely satisfactory.

Recommendations: I am looking for a hard polymer paint or laminate to put on my wood bench top. Anyone have any suggestions?

Joe M
Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 20:22:19 (ZULU)

CDC, Glycerin Soap.

Rub a thin film on wipe it off.

Good to go.

Available at any GOOD pharmacy.

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 20:26:06 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

You might want to try Formica or something similar. It worked just fine for a bar top and also my reloading bench. I used MinWax clear polyurethane on my current bar; but I don't know how it would hold up to anything other than alcohol.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 20:40:57 (ZULU)

Joe:

I used two coats of polyurethane varnish as the finish for the top of my reloading bench, applied on top of plywood. No regrets many years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 22:06:00 (ZULU)

CDC',

Scuba shops carry anti-fog spooge for masks. A gel called 'Sea Gold'. A few drops, rub-on, good to go. ~$5/1.5oz. Should last years.

JoeM,

I used a double coat of polyurethane on wood, for reloading bench, and it's held up very well. I'm not as severe as using naval jelly and such, I think a more chemical resistant surface would be in order.

Note: Spit works ok to keep scuba masks from fogging. Be sure NOT to have eaten trail mix any time prior to spitting in mask. :8-o

Duman
Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 01:10:55 (ZULU)

Any updates on the Sniperquest? Anyone?

SFC Pete Carpentier JR
C.C., TX, USA - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 01:11:10 (ZULU)

"Note: Spit works ok to keep scuba masks from fogging. Be sure NOT to have eaten trail mix any time prior to spitting in mask. :8-o "

Duman: LMAO -- I had just eaten some trail mix before reading your note above -- that also applies to laptop screens...

Take care all,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 04:07:33 (ZULU)

CDC,

If you want glyerin soap, go to a saddle shop. You'll get WAY more for way less than at the pharmacy or some boutique. Fiebings brand. Saddle soap is actually glycerin. We use it to prep bull ropes, and it comes in a really big stick.

Joe M.,

What's a steel Schlitz can worth? I found one under my house. Also found steel Gerber baby food cans!

For good workbench tops, I've been considering the epoxy stuff they sell for garage floors.

Duman,

You use Naval jelly as a wood finish?

All,

What's Lapua once fired .308 brass worth? I'm fixing to get a pile of it. Anyone need some?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 09:22:04 (ZULU)

Travis...

I would guess that 20 to 25 cents for the Lapua would fair if it's clean and ready to go.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 10:01:44 (ZULU)

*****************************SPEW ALERT******************************

My wife sent me this:

The next time you see a little old lady with shaky hands, you'll remember this story:

A little old lady, well into her eighties, slowly enters the front door of a sex shop. Obviously very unstable on her feet, she wobbles the few feet across the store to the counter. Finally arriving at the counter and grabbing it for support, stuttering, she asks the sales

clerk: "Dddooo youuuu hhhave dddddiilllldosss?"

The clerk, politely trying not to burst out laughing, replies: "Yes we do have dildos. Actually we carry many different models."

The old woman then asks: "Dddddoooo yyyouuuu ccaarrryy AAA pppinkk onnee, tttenn inchessss lllong aaandd aabboutt ttwoo inchesss ththiickk..aaand rrunns by bbaatteries?

The clerk responds, "Yes we do."

She asks: "Ddddooo yyoooouuuu kknnnoooww hhhowww tttooo ttturrrnnn ttthe ssunoooffabbitch offffff ?"

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 10:14:06 (ZULU)

Joe

You got the top of your bench built yet? If not, I went to the Dura-Form Company in Madison and bought a 4'x8'x1&1/8" sheet of cement form that concrete contractors use it's about 32 ply and both outer plys are hard plastic. I think i paid 3.00 a square foot for it but it's worth it. You can get scrape or shorter pieces for less. If you want there phone# lat me know.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 11:41:16 (ZULU)

Man bitten on tongue by pet rattlesnake (with pictures): http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/news/14142315/detail.html

Psycho bites off (and swallows) pieces of his ex and her new husband: http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/news/14174388/detail.html

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 12:25:22 (ZULU)

Anti fog stuff. I've recently tried "fogtech" and was very impressed.

Works fine in sustained misty rain which I find is usually the biggest problem. Haven't used it in a heavy downpour yet but it stopped the usual front lens fogging from barrel heat and water in the front sunshade tube.

Didn't get on with the glycerene type fixes as I found they blurred the sight picture too much.( maybe I was doing it wrong...)

Mark D
London, UK - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 13:28:12 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Antelope season opened yesterday. Filled one of my tags early and will likely go out later in the week to see about fillin the other. Life is good.

Lito: The summary of the article goes something like this: Cleaning comes down to three methods, 1) Physical abrasives 2) Chemical 3)Reverse electoplating. Then the author writes about techniques of each method he uses and favors and things that can damage your rifle bore as well. If your interested I can probably figure out a way to get you a copy of the article, but much of it covers territory you have likely been through.

Pat II
Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 16:24:57 (ZULU)

Pat II

I would like to see the article. There might be stuff in there that I haven't tried.

Can you mail me a xerox? If so, e-mail me and I'll give you my address.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 17:19:58 (ZULU)

Engine Country.

On Soduim filled exhaust valves, Cummins has been using soduim filled valves in there Heavy-Duty and High-Horsepower engines for sometime. In the 90's they using soduim filled valves in both the intake and exhuast valves.

Now back to Snipercountry. Does anyone have any updates on the SniperQuest match?

SFC Pete Carpentier JR
C.C., TX, USA - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 19:06:32 (ZULU)

SNIPERQUEST...What a SHOOT!! Fun started at 0800 hours during the safety/match briefing. Shooters were advised that a Electromagnetic Pulse Weapon had been detonated in the atmosphere above Ft. Sill, and ALL electronic items were knocked out of commission. This included Battery operated wind meters, palm pilots, laser range finders, etc. After the safety brief contestants moved to the field for a Land Navigation exercise and then the shooting fun began. A total of 16 events were held during SniperQuest 07...Events such as Deep Strike, Cold Bore at 600 with immediate followup shots at 200 and 100 yards into a 1.5 MOA target, Positional without slings, and 7 different ranges of Unknown Distance Targets with at least 7 different directions of wind , ranging from 350 to 950 yards, to just name a few of the events.

Congratulations to the winners:

1st Place Team 1st Place Individual

Jim Clark Jeff Badley

Jon Norwood 2nd Place Individual

2nd Place Team Jim Clark

Jeff Badley 3rd Place Individual

Chase Treslor Preston Pritchett

3rd Place Team

Preston Pritchett

Wade Stuteville

Winner of the DPMS Panther rifle donated by DPMS was Aaron Vancamp, a new shooter that was shooting his first competition.

BadLands is honored to hold this event here, and the staff and I look forward to next years!

I want to thank all the sponsors that donated to the prize table: DPMS, SWFA, Lou Ann Robinson, Forresters, Brigade Armory, Surgeon Rifles, OTIS, Midway USA, Sierra Bullets, and many others..just too tired to recall em all right now. Competitors..please take the time to thank the sponsors, we couldn't have had such an outstanding prize table without them. Sarge did a damn good job on that!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 22:08:04 (ZULU)

Gary: The workbench is built...and the idea about garage floor epoxy is what I am looking for---now that Travis thought of it for me:)) But those concrete forms are exactly what I am looking for for the shooting bench out back. I have a "temporary plywood bench" out there that has been temporarily shot off of for four years now. Lesson learned: Do not make stop-gaps too durable or useful...or they become permanent.

I used marine grade varnish on my NC workbench. It was actually a "selling point" for the house (I made it with an offset for the garage sill--so it stayed). That coating was inset about an 1/8" to the surface from the borders, and was both durable and pretty by design. But the nasty old boards I am using now as a surface need paint...or a large brown bag to cover it:))

Joe M
Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 22:21:38 (ZULU)

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