Sniper Country Duty Roster

Powerpoint Country :-)

http://www.nbc-links.com/powerpoint.html

or click my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 1, 2007, at 03:19:01 (ZULU)

MedicJim: Those goofy little fun tabs were pretty popular in the higher HQs overseas. A few serving their staff senetences would push the envelope by wearing them in briefings. A game of sorts---can theyget away with it? I guess if you have no other war stories...this is as good as it gets:)) PPT hell is the life of a staff guy. Our army has devolved to the coolest slide. No shit. We all saw it coming (us LTs) when harvard graphics added clipart in 92. Then, in late 93---email. We saw how "fire and forget" and the urge to command thru this path of least resistance would lead to major disconnects. Many, many commanders' answered this by read receipt and "acknowledge." All the while proclaiming they would never ever command-by-email. Ha! It is this very thing that leads to shit like Abu Ghraib. Computer networking is the bane of solid leadership. I stand by that assessment. I do not give a flying shit about any of the benefits--the downsides are simply not worth it. And, I swear, my cohort brother LTs in Alaska saw this coming in the early versions of this technology. It is form over function---not the info on the slide...but does each slide indent dress-right-dress with the previous??? I am not kidding.

I was watching a story about the bomb threats on FNC. They had a shot of a SWAT team on a roof. two guys were poking around a roof vent, the other was pulling "security." That guy's actions made me question training: He was scanning around an arc---thru his freakin' sights on his weapon. It looked like an eotech, which t least has a better F|OV than an aimpoint---but, WTF? He was placing his muzzle on everything in front of him---newsies, civies, whatever. I sure hope this guy is an exception to a rule. |In that situation, he would have been better served with an "at ready" hold of his choice, while having an unobstructed view as he used his swivel mounted head to good effect.

To flag everything before him like that looked amateurish as hell.

I tried these things with these .asp files. IE opens them just as eff'd up as viewer did. The first few that opened in IE on their own opned just fine, as stated. But I think a deep config has altered in my system. I haven't dug it up. My solution will be to fire up my laptop and transfer the zip files, then extract them there. I'll see what happens. This version of XP maybe "patched" with yet another POS "fix" that causes this problem for me. Yes, I D/L'd the files and viewed a few just prior to another unsolicited patch (my wife's profile is set up to accept these, I think)

My virus shield just popped a virus. Had to come in in java or a word.doc. Time to investigate.

Joe M
Sunday, September 2, 2007, at 07:45:52 (ZULU)

Good eats!

;)))

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6974687.stm

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 2, 2007, at 20:23:21 (ZULU)

Joe M.....some dipshit pulled that method of "scanning" off TJ Hooker and plugged it into the training cycle. It looked cool, so everyone started copying it. Five departments and ten years later, it's gospel, because "it is written". If you're a trainer, it's easier to just do what the other guy is doing so you'll have your LCCDI program up and running to please the department heads who want something NOW. Why bother thinking of whether it makes any sense? And, guess what, it's in the SWAT DNA, now. Guilty myself. Had some long talks about that with LT Johnson of Clovis. Thought he was dumber'n dirt and injecting PC to tactics, until I started thinking about how I almost shot someone. In any case, I'm starting to think that most SWAT teams are training themselves into obsolescence. They're still training against the guy that just wigged out and killed his wife, holed up in the house and is desperately trying to figure out how to get out without going to jail. First real group of dedicated, motivated 11B types, or as-shaheed, they're toast. Try telling them that, though.....Army hated giving up the horses, didn't they?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2007, at 21:34:02 (ZULU)

Fire tactics evolve when groups of firemen die using the old tactics. I'd hate to see it go that way, but I think that's likely how SWAT teams will learn as well.

medicjim
Monday, September 3, 2007, at 04:45:57 (ZULU)

Army hated giving up the horses, didn't they?

Charles S. Hunt

There used to be saying that: "Cavalry brings class to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl".

You guys are very right, way too much "training" gets lifted from TV and what looks tactikewl. I argued myself to the edge of likely separation over some of this stuff. Took 9/11 for reality to sink in with the upper echelons.

However, there is another way if you recall the operative definition of "expert" (Someone from outside and/or >30 miles from their place of employment.). Have someone from outside look at your program and ask, "WTF are you doing this shit?" Followed by:"No responsible progarm does it that way."

On the cheekweld scanning: I ask them if they've ever seen figure skaters/dancers spin? Do they notice that their arms & legs are tucked in close? When they want to slow down they extend their arms? A trial or 2 with a PACT timer will show them it's faster to acquire the target and them mount the weapon. They're also losing the ability to see stuff blocked by the weapon in firing position.

WR Moore
Monday, September 3, 2007, at 12:06:32 (ZULU)

Looking for pet loads for a 243. Just picked one up this weekend. Thinking along the line of Hornady 87 grn. V Max.

Thanks in advance

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, September 3, 2007, at 14:46:23 (ZULU)

If you're looking through a scope, optical device or set of pistol/rifle sights, you tend to lock onto what you see through that device. Peripheral vision is limited, and you just can't see much BELOW what you're scanning. You're also violating one of the four laws of firearms....you're pointing a loaded weapon at an unknown quantity.

The SWAT guys are generally bright, motivated and sincere people. But they can only go with what they are trained with, and that generally is somewhat behind the power curve, as with most things. And I respect what they do, and their abilities. I do wish that my department would stop pissing away money on trivial crap and start training the poor, dumbass patrol pukes in the same things, so that when the balloon goes up, everyone would be on the same page. Ain't gonna happen.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, September 3, 2007, at 14:51:03 (ZULU)

Good input Chuck.

Scanning, Yeah, I teach it. I believe it is one of the most important habits we instill in our students.

I have no idea what the SWAT cop, Joe was speaking of, was doing or the circumstances of the incident. I am assuming that if there were news folks and other lookie-loos that close it was fairly secure or the perimeter was never secured properly in the first place. I also see no reason for flagging innocent folks.

I teach a 540 degree scan. 360 around and 180 up and down. It is accomplished immediately after stopping a deadly threat and does a few things for the officer/solider/operator. It keeps his mind in the game and breaks the tendency for tunnel vision during a stressful time. It also helps you find that “one more” threat out there. It is important to use the eyes to find the threat. The ears can be too deceiving, especially in a built up area where sound bounces in all directions and its origin can be very deceiving.

And yes, that scan is taught to the student to look over the sights and aiming device. It only requires the shooter to lower the weapon an inch or so. He should be in this position during scan, during a room entry and any other time he is facing an immediate threat. If that is not the situation, I teach that the shooter should be in the high or low carry with a shoulder weapon. That is with the muzzle straight up or straight down between the feet. I have no use for any of the other in-between positions. There is either an immediate threat or not.

I am of the same thought with a pistol. It’s either pointing at a potential threat or in the SUL position (center chest and pointing down between the feet). If the threat is not immediate, holster the thing.

OK off my box.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, September 3, 2007, at 15:22:44 (ZULU)

Also, when you watch those dancers, watch their heads. Notice that they are almost stationary? They're LOOKING at a fixed object to keep from getting dizzy. Looking. You can't shoot what you can't see. Corollary note: I was watching some doofus movie on TV last night, only because the blonde was hot. She was a "cop" and kept holding the gun in the Charlie's Angel pose, besid the right ear. I had an irrational urge to jump at the screen and yell BOO! just to watch her torch off a round and blow an eardrum......

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, September 3, 2007, at 16:23:24 (ZULU)

Charles-you bring up excellent points. Large, lawsuit shy and many other organizations are very slow to change-unless the body count goes up. By the time some concept gets recognized as a better way to do business, someone backs it and sends it up the ladder as a suggestion, upper echelons think about it, the legal department OKs it, a training course is created and training starts....you're looking at 5-7 years. I had the opportunity to time some concepts from recognition to becoming the "new practice" from major training sources.

Everyone needs the new training...preferably by the same guy. I've seen too much get lost in the "train the trainer, the trainer trains the troops" system. The amount lost depends upon the quality of the trainer-and management to some variable degree.

Good catch on the head thing, I stress that the eyes stay on the threat while the body indexes, overlooked mentioning it.

WR Moore
Monday, September 3, 2007, at 18:11:20 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

I agree with WR Moore. So does Jerry Barnhart.

Pat II
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 00:27:16 (ZULU)

(US) Politics Country:

http://www.imwithfred.com/

http://www.imwithfred.com/NewsRoom/PressRelease.aspx?ID=fdcf5633-fa86-4885-84bc-db733495857e

McLean, VA – On September 6, 2007, Fred Thompson will be announcing his intention to run for President of the United States with a webcast available to millions at www.imwithfred.com. The launch of the video will be followed by a five-day campaign tour through Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina.

One of the better candidates if the 2nd Amendment is your hot button...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 01:15:27 (ZULU)

Pat,

Jerry "The Burner" is a great shooter, but when was he last in a real street gunfight or on convoy security in the desert?

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 03:08:51 (ZULU)

Jim:

Jerry probably doesn't have a lot of "street creds", but has spent a lot of time analysing how to quickly engage targets.

Since he is training LEO's and military he probably has spent time analysing the problems they face, not just competitive technique.

http://www.jerrybarnhart.com/

"Jerry has been conducting classes for the Department of Defense, Federal and Law Enforcement personnel for more than 15 years. In teaching as many as 25-30 weeks a year, Jerry has amassed a great deal of knowledge, training hours and has worked with thousands of students over those years. By continually perfecting his training abilities his goal is to provide the best instruction available today.

Courses are available on all handguns, M-4/M-16 rifles, SR-25, SMG and a variety of shotguns. (Other long gun courses available upon request.) Although Jerry’s background stems from winning National and World Championship competition matches, these are serious, work-related, tactical training courses – not competition courses! Each class will be tailored to fit the specific needs of the group being taught."

FBI used to shoot from a "combat crouch" until they were introduced to and adopted "The Modern Technique".

Bruce Lee said - absorb what is useful.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 05:18:35 (ZULU)

I shot with Jerry a few times before he became famous. Street creds never came up, don't recall what he did for a living then and don't think they exist.

There are things that can be learned from the gamers that can be applied in the real world. Yes, various agencies have retained these guys to do some training-Jim and others can describe that far better than I. Yes, the training CAN work both ways, how much is variable. And yes, post Miami '87, a whole lot of folks looked at training "outside the box".

However, not all competition stuff works-or is a good idea- on the street. For example: the very impressive speed shooting "The Burner" is capable of isn't applicable when you have to identify your targets before engaging them. To shorten this spiel up, many agencies filter what the competition guys show them before it gets to the troops. Now I'm speaking in general here, not about any specific person, but the guy who did limited scope training and now claims that "I trained_____________." is not entirely truthful.

Now, one sterling advantage these kinda guys may have is that if they discover applicable new techniques, it doesn't take 5-7 years to get permission to spread the message. The downside is that they can relay information without context, which has happened on the website of one respected trainer.

WR Moore
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 13:32:31 (ZULU)

I think I may as well give up on this pointy-headed elitest thingie. It`s obvious I am never going to reach this level of enlightenment. Get your duct tape out.

http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article_buy.cfm?article_id=6672

I wasn`t aware that right and wrong were subject to the requisite of popularity. Pretty high and mighty for a religion that celebrates the virtues of Dietrich Bonhoffer every year without actually speaking of his attempts on the life of Adolf Hitler. The ultimate hypocracy, IMHO. And yes, I am a Lutheran. Not sure for how much longer. The older I get get, the more I am convinced there is a huge difference between Christians and people who believe in God.

Excuse me while I struggle with my faith. Thanks for listening.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 14:36:10 (ZULU)

OOps, sorry, I just realized the whole article isn`t there. I`ll work on it.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 14:57:48 (ZULU)

OK, try this. Sorry for the bandwidth. And, yes, Mr. Chilstrom is a pastor.

September 2007 issue

Story by

Herbert W. Chilstrom

What do we do now about the war in Iraq? 'Continuing is immoral'

In April 2003 most Americans thought the war in Iraq would be short-lived and the outcome would be total victory for President George W. Bush and the American forces.

My family and friends must have thought I was the ultimate pessimist when I wrote to them: “I’ve been to the Middle East too many times and have read too much about that part of the world to feel good about the ultimate outcome of what’s happening. I fear we’re in for a long, long time of increasing terrorism. No one wants to be proven wrong. But in this case, I hope I will be.”

Now, instead of being part of a small minority who opposed the invasion of Iraq, I find myself linked with a growing majority who question the wisdom in undertaking a war that appears to have no end in sight.

It would be tempting to gloat over my prediction. But that would be pointless.

The political and religious dynamics of the Middle East are too complex and the consequences of the outcome of this war are too serious for anyone to take pride in one’s opinion.

Where can we turn for help in looking at the larger picture? I find no better resource than the wisdom of Reinhold Niebuhr, one of America’s premier theologians of the last century.

It was he who advised all preachers to prepare their sermons with the Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other.

He was often referred to as a “theologian of public life.” (That, in fact, is the title of the collection of his writings from which I quote. Reinhold Niebuhr: Theologian of Public Life, ed. by Larry Rasmussen; Augsburg Fortress, reprint edition, 1991.)

With flags waving everywhere and politicians of every stripe ending their speeches with appeals for God to bless America, Niebuhr reminds us that no nation is immune to the kind of self-aggrandizement that blinds us to our own faults:

“Patriotism is a high form of altruism, when compared to lesser and more parochial loyalties; but from an absolute perspective it is simply another form of selfishness. The larger the group the more certainly will it express itself selfishly in the total human community. It will be more powerful and therefore more able to defy any social restraints which might be devised. It will also be less subject to internal restraints.”

Why do we think the U.S. is superior to all other nations on earth, that we can wield our military power in defiance of world opinion, that we can preside over the disintegration of another culture in the name of “enlightened self-interest?”

Niebuhr would suggest that it is rooted in that dark side of humanity that shows itself in an unhealthy pride that insists on putting ourselves on a higher pedestal than other nations.

Our problem is further compounded by the assumption of many that we are a “Christian nation” and, even more, by the comfort many take in having a leader who claims to be a “born-again Christian,” who prays to God for wisdom before starting a war. The sober reality is that we are not now and never have been a “Christian nation.”

Most of our Founding Fathers believed in a Supreme Being who created the world and established moral order. But they were also humanists who were convinced that we are on our own in making the world a livable place. They would have reacted with shock by the suggestion that they were “born again” and had a unique and personal connection to that Divine Being.

Most of them were deists, including Thomas Jefferson, who constructed his own Bible—omitting the miracles, the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

They believed that reason, dialogue and a carefully devised political process paved the path to good and wise government.

Martin Luther advocated personal piety in every believer. Yet he saw the importance of separating religion from political process, trusting that God was active in both realms. And he recognized it was essential to have people of superior talent and good judgment to lead the state.

As much as anyone else, I want the U.S. to prosper and be at peace. But, along with many others, I fear we are on a trajectory that could undermine our whole way of life. I’m sobered by Niebuhr’s prophecy: “In every civilization its most impressive period seems to precede death by only a moment.”

Fortunately, Niebuhr wasn’t entirely pessimistic. Like a good theologian and good citizen, he saw hope in a changed attitude: “One of the great resources of ... faith for social achievement is the sense of humility which must result from the recognition of our common sinfulness ....

“Reconciliation with even the most evil foe requires forgiveness; and forgiveness is possible only to those who have some recognition of common guilt.”

No, terrorists won’t turn their attention away from us if we admit our mistakes, own up to our limitations and alight from our high horse.

But we would, at the very least, win support from all those who have become disillusioned with the U.S. in the past several years. If they knew we needed them and respected them as equals, we might once again have some strong allies in our conflict with those intent on destroying democratic nations and institutions.

Lutheran historian of religion and commentator Martin Marty, reflecting on the war in Iraq, raised the question: “At what point may, and must, some moral and religious voices be raised to call the continuing venture immoral?”

I think the time is now.

SteveRacer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 15:17:07 (ZULU)

Steve: The Union was in disarray and Lincoln was under pressure to cave just before Gettysburg. If the German Army had been able to break through the U.S. lines and push through to Antwerp, the whole outcome of WWII could hve been in doubt. If Harold hadn't caught that pesky little arrow in the eye at Hastings, well, you get the picture. I think that the problem is not with the religion of the war in Iraq, but the politics. Think, what will be the result of a pullout, now? We have history to guide us in looking at the future. Remember the "domino theory" of Vietnam? Was it correct? Partly. The only reason all of Southeast Asia didn't go Commie is that they ran out of steam, not because the prognosticators were wrong. If we pull out of Iraq, now, just because some limpdick Democrats (notice they are ALWAYS the party of cut and run...look again at the history books)we are going to be setting ourselves up for a nightmare war that will make this one pale in comparison. The Iraqi gov't implodes, as Iran foments the very civil war the weenies are bleating about. Al-Qaeda moves into the vacuum, and now has a base to launch attack after attack against it's perceived enemies around the world. Will w have to go back? Uh, yup. Will we have to lose more kids? Bet on it. Why does anyone think the resurgent Islam is going to leave us alone, just because we leave the Middle East? It wasn't that long ago, they were banging on the gates of Vienna....and they have long memories, and hate to lose.

Don't confuse Christianity with pacifism. Christianity is the total of those who believe in Christ. It's not an "ism". If you can read, you can figure out what God had in mind for us without having to have someone in a frock coat and bad hair interpret it for you. I can believe in a forgiving God, and pick up my rifle and defend my family, country and way of life with a clear conscience. Don't lose faith, just go to the core of it and you'll be ok.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 17:33:52 (ZULU)

Steve,

You could always just decide to be a "rugged individualist" and believe whatever you want to...

There is a certain "freedom" in this approach.

medicjim
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 18:18:21 (ZULU)

Charles said, "I also see no reason for flagging innocent folks."

Me either. Doing so violates the second rule of firearm safety - "Never point the muzzle of your weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy."

I scan with my eyes, with the weapon pointed in a safe direction. You can scan 360 degrees without moving your upper body very much.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 18:28:37 (ZULU)

Allow me to clear up a point. When I say I teach a 540 Degree scan, I mean after shooting a threat(s), we scan a angle left and right, about 45 degrees and then a sideways figure eight in that same parameter to check the second and third story or up the bank,then the gun comes back to the low carry that is straight down at the ground (carbine) or SUL (pistol) then looking dirctly left and right and then behind. I never have them swing the weapons all around the place. When the carbine comes down the safety goes on and when the pistol comes back to the chest, it is decocked if it has one.

Another subject. I respect what we have learned from the competition guys, but we have to be careful. We had a fairly high tier Navy group here last year that just came from a shooting school taught by a famous competitor. They were scanning with thier fingers on the trigger. They were told they would be faster that way. I ended that real quick. I explained we were not shooting steel and cardboard. That our team mates might also be downrange from our position.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 19:01:42 (ZULU)

Steve,

It's not the religion you're mad at, it's the church. I had the same problem with the methodist church specifically, and most others I've attended.

It bugs the hell out of me that they worry too much about light shows, guest singers and other "fellowship" BS, and kinda completely ignore the bible. I miss how church used to be. They'd tell you to help people when you can, and being an asshole meant hell, in the end.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 19:56:17 (ZULU)

Jim R.- do you have an email addy (work?) that I can hit you with? Gotta couple things I'd like a second opinion on. Thanks.

WR Moore
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 20:18:26 (ZULU)

Jim:

I though I implied it, but perhaps not. Agree that there are all sorts of techniques from competition that are *not* useful/wise "on the street/in the field".

The corollary to "absort what is useful" is that there are all sorts of things that are not useful. The genius is in making the distinction. But I suspect you already knew that :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 00:10:20 (ZULU)

I enjoy banging something out on this forum. Nobody seems to get their panties in a wad or wanna get into a Pee Pee contest.

I learn a lot just reading here.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 01:03:47 (ZULU)

Jim,

I have no idea, but we both agree he is a great shooter.

Pat II
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 02:32:00 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

What thoroughly impressed me about Jerry Barnhardt is his teaching/training style. Very laid back, professional, with a "try this, if it works for you, put it in your tool box, if not, get rid of it" approach. I've had the opportunity to be exposed to a few trainers, from the very good to the not so good, to the downright obnoxious. You could be the best at whatever discipline and a very experienced operator, but if you can't put the information thru or if you alienate your students, it does no good.

That said, all things being equal, having been down range does give a trainer credability that what he is selling has been used real world.

Pat II
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 02:54:32 (ZULU)

Steve Racer: Surrender?? To al Qaeda and Iran??

F*****g idiot preachers.

(edited)

CDC'
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 04:19:19 (ZULU)

CDC,

Dammit, quit dancin' around and just tell us how you feel! You, sir, are the absolute MASTER of subtlety! ;0)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 06:28:55 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt

Just to be clear, I in no way agree with what Rev. Chilstrom writes in this article. My biggest problem is that this stuff gets run up the flag pole and most in the church either salute it or give it tacit approval, whether they agree or not. Once again, I believe the silent majority would rather sit back and bite their collective tongues rather than evoke controversy by commenting. Happens with regularity in our church, whether it`s the budget, ordaining persons in non-celebit committed same sex relatiionships (as if there are celebit same sex relationships?), or voting on seat cushions for the pews. It all only means something after the deed is done when it`s too late to speak up. One can only stack hypocracy so high before it falls of it`s own weight. I guess I`m as guilty as the rest. I can write letters to the Ed. and start committees and send out newsletters, but in the end, the caterpillar nibbles on. Soon the tree will be eaten, leaf by leaf. I long for the day when someone stands up and throws the bullshit flag, and the rest of the congregation nods in agreement on the "right side" of the issue for a change. I always thought a viewpoint needed some common sense or at least the appearance of rational thought to have enough validity to be debated (or in this case, published). It gets to the point where I start asking myself, 'what am I missing? Could they really be right?' Goes back to the old "if you tell a lie often enough and no one disputes it, it becomes the truth." Well, not for me, Bub!

>>> You could always just decide to be a "rugged individualist" and believe whatever you want to...

There is a certain "freedom" in this approach.<<<

I suppose I do that to a degree. Most people accept the parts they believe and reject what they don`t. Everyone get`s to decide, even in the face of incontrovertable evidence contrary to their opinion. It`s the continual barrage of garbage put forth as words-to-live-by from those in positions of credence that I object to. When the leaders of the church, or the country for that matter, appear to be off the reservation, and the populace follow without question, suspending agreement so they can join the lemmings on the cliff. Well, now we`re back to the Hilter/Bonnhoffer scenario again. Moves from annoying to consuming pretty quickly.

And now I officially sound like the pointy heads I dislike so much. Yikes. K, I`m done. (but not through!)

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 07:17:36 (ZULU)

Jim Reifinger

<<<...then the gun comes back to the low carry that is straight down at the ground (carbine) or SUL (pistol) then looking dirctly left and right and then behind.>>>

Since I am anacronymically challenged, What is "SUL" please? Thanks. SR

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 07:30:22 (ZULU)

Steve: it's not an acronym. Sul is the Portugese word for south. The pistol is in close to the body, with the muzzle pointed down (south). The position is assumed by bringing the pistol into the body in the firing grip, then flattening the hands against the body as shown in one of the pictures you can get to by clicking on my name. In this position, the hands are indexed in a flattened-out firing grip, and the pistol can be fired quickly by pushing the hands away from the body toward the target.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 14:01:29 (ZULU)

Steve wrote "It`s the continual barrage of garbage put forth as words-to-live-by from those in positions of credence that I object to"

By "those in positions of credence", do you mean "leaders" <register sarcasm, it is intended>

We live in the land of "all men created equal"....it's anti-American (IMHO) to follow on issues of belief. What mortal is empowered to tell you what to think? I've never understood how people can stand up and consider themselves 'Good Americans' while they are being led (fed a homogeneous set of trivial, random thoughts) like a herd of sheep.

Among strong folks with diverse backgrounds and perspectives...an issue like the war in Iraq should have some disagrement. The quickest way to detect 'weakness of mind' is to look for a high degree of uniformity in opinion...especially on related trivialities.

medicjim
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 14:03:12 (ZULU)

Finger said the class was taught by a "Famous Competitor"

Jim, that said it all. Things that have bugged me for years is all these IPSC and rifle games guys thinking they are fighters.

They come up with positions that will clear plates faster than anything else but when you ask "Hey hows that work when your team mate is 2" from you" How about when you are clearing 2 or 3 to a room and moving fast? How about when your weapon mounted light dies and you need to use a flash light? Usually you get a "HUH!"

Now for ultimate in stupidity one of these "Masters" taught guys to have freakin springs in mag pouch to assist in getting magaiznes out fast. I mean when they unclipped pouch lid the mag shot up. Tactical my butt!

The bottom line is simple works. Techniques need to work with all systems you run to keep it simple. Your postions need to work with a SMG slung in fornt, back or across chest. You need to be able to make mag changes.

Oh crap there I go. The idea of super shooter teaching fighting tactics just pissed me off again.

I just wish guys would look to men who had bene in fighst for training and not some guy who can clear a plat rack fastest.

Best line in shooting school ever. Stident asks James J. "How do I adjust for a shot with wind blowing 30mph plus from 9 O'Clock at 700 yards?" James response "Move to 3 or 9 O'clock of target and kill it"

Thats a guy who knows what he is talking about.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 16:46:19 (ZULU)

Steve,

Yeah, what Lindy said about Sul. I have no idea why I keep capitalizing the thing like a acronym. Just a Marine Grunt I guess.

I don't do it exactly like the Sul in the pictures. I myself like to use the same position but cover the pistol with the non-shooting hand.

Just my preference. Especially if I use it in a tight stack.

Glad you agree Mike, but tell me, how do you really feel about this.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 17:16:06 (ZULU)

For you AR-15 types....

http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=310274

Duman
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 19:25:31 (ZULU)

Got a gun-plumber question? That trigger group on some Remington 700s. It has a silver body and hex screws for adjustments instead of slot headed scews. OK then, the sear adjustment screw in the rear. Is it locked down? is it sealed with Loc-tite or something?

Can it even be adjusted. I didn't want to force it. I tried adjusting just the overtravel and trigger weights as normal, but anytime I got below about 5 to 6 pounds it would slam fire whem I threw the bolt handle down hard. I thought maybe I needed to re-adjust the sear, but I could not move the damn thing.

Any suggestions till I get the Timminys I just asked for in the budget?

I am accustomed to the old trigger group and bringing it down to 3.5 to 4 pounds. Can't make these do it.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 21:58:20 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Lumping all the trainers without "street creds" into one group is a mistake. They are not all created equal. I don't know if the the super shooters are teaching fighting. Some are teaching shooting.

It was said before, what is not worthwhile, discard. However, if something teaches you to be a better shooter, I have noticed in some settings, shooting is involed in fighting.

Now if we get into the "keep your finger on the trigger to make you faster" or the " put springs in your mag pouches to make your mags jump" there is no argument, this and things of this nature have no place in the real world.

Pat II
Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 01:46:51 (ZULU)

Undude: IPSC, for me, was a joke! I stopped by a match in NC, and these "gamers" made me feel unwelcome with my box-stock 1911---which was just as well. I was in absolutely no danger of attending any war with those clods. What I really want to know is who is the comedian who named this shit "practical?" That was the funniest thing I've seen in my life: Cut-away holsters, clip-on mags, electro-gizmo sights with 12" comps...yeah. That makes a great hideaway or back-up arm. Very practical indeed.

I couldn't get past the humor to take it seriously...

So now I don a 1870's cav get-up and shoot a pair of single actions, a hammered replichester pumpgun and a '73. With all this retro-uselessness, I am in no danger of thinking anything here is "practical:))" Besides, the CAS clubs locally are old-school shooters---just great damn people to be around. I could care less if it was the Bozo shooting League complete with orange wigs and red shoes (easy now, Lito)---it is the company that drew me in. |Hell, my kids love the matches as much as anyone else in the house!

MedicJim: Great quote, I'm stealing it:))

Joe M
Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 05:09:26 (ZULU)

I was talking to a man who owns a gun store today about pistol shooting. He's an IPSC'er, and he got into some of the gaming scenarios they play with. One was getting carjacked, first target pops up in front of the car, with a gun. He went on about how to get out and shoot it. When I asked him "Why don't you just shoot the asshat through the windshield?", he just stared at me for a moment like I'd sprouted a penis outta my forehead. Next scenario was a downed State trooper by his patrol car, how to run up, drag him to safety, then take the gun outta the troop's holster and engage the bad guy. "Hmmmm", says I. "How many steps do you think you're gonna get, hauling a deadweight wounded man, before the peckerwoods squirt lead into you? Why not just pull your own gun and engage the dumb idiots from COVER and then tend to the trooper?" Again, the sprouting penis from the forehead look. Occam's razor, dude. Wanna play games? Get behind some steel and let another gamer start shooting at you with a real AK. Start figuring out your options from there. The winners will get to breed more smart people.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 05:25:37 (ZULU)

I never meant civy instructors where no good. I meant IPSC and Gammers should keep thier butts on pourch and not attempt to teach searching, shooting on move and fighting. That should be taught by guys who searched, shot while moving and have been in a fight.

I just dont want the Cute T Shirt Gang telling me what gear and how to fight when they have only played a game where speed and accuarcy are everything while tactics and the abilty to work multiple systems keep you alive.

I play on a computer alot but I would not start giving computer building classes because I can turn one on faster than most guys.

Why is it guys think they can clear a plate rack real fast and then are good to go for war?

Best instructor I know is Louis Awerbuck and he is a civy but Louie has seen the poop run down his leg before so he learned by survival. He stopped pooping and snooping but kept learning. He passes this on to many men going into combat.

Jim, I am a simple man who says what he believes. I know too many guys who know you to think you are different. You ever get classes near me and I will drag my old butt to one. PS I Liked the guys you worked with in Hatti.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 06:03:29 (ZULU)

Louis Awerbuck served in the 1st Special Services Battalion in South Africa, so he has prior military experience, and I believe he's been seriously shot at.

I've only read his books, which are filled with good common sense, which is, alas, all too uncommon.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 13:14:41 (ZULU)

I met Louis at Gunsite in the early 80s. The Marine Corps sent me out there to bring back some combat pistol skills for training. Louis was a great no nonsense instructor. We had a blast sneaking up on steel in the arroyos and making stupid long shots with 1911s. Col. Cooper called us the dangerous duo. Damn, I was a young 36 year old First Sergeant back then.

Later I found out during an evening of supper and a few beers, he also had a great sense of humor. His accent was still pretty thick back then. Louis was the real deal.

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. Haiti still leaves me with fond and not so fond memories. Ahhh sitting out by the pool at the Ibo Lele drinking Cuba Libres smoking a Cohiba and watching the tires burning down in the ville. That was a great contract with some super guys.

I will be 59 Saturday. 42 years of doing this stuff in one form or another. Soon time to retire and teach grandsons to hunt ,fish, fear the Lord and no man.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 14:19:43 (ZULU)

"I never meant civy instructors where no good. I meant IPSC and Gamers should keep their butts on porch and not attempt to teach searching, shooting on move, and fighting."

Ode to the plastic gunfighter.

A man appears at the Pearly Gates and Saint Peter greets him.

"Young man, you have died and come before me, and I must judge you to see if you are worthy of entrance, but I see from my book that you have led a sinful and lascivious life and you have never done even one good deed to help anyone else!!. I cannot let you into Heaven".

The young man protests, "I'm not all that bad, I want to go into Heaven!"

Saint Peter said, "Have you EVER done anything to help another person, that might aid your case?"

The young man replies, "Saint Peter... Wait, this might do it.

Once time, I was driving down the road on the way home after finishing the Fatal Force 10 IPSC match at Thunder Gun Farm.

I saw a young lady whose car had stalled on the road. She was surrounded by a vile gang of evil bikers, and one of them was armed with an old break top .38 S&W.

They were taunting her and pawing and tearing at her clothing, and clearly wanted to have their way with her.

I screeched to a stop, and I approached using a dominant timing walk and commanded... "Freeze you dirty slime sucking bunch of faggots... Don't move. Get away from her! Don't make me take action! I’m an expert gunfighter and you'll be very sorry!"

At the same time, I started to clear my Chip McKimber "Custom" 1911 M3000 with Tabasco Red Dot sights and stocked with Black Knight Avenger super-comp grips, and loaded with 300gr Frangible JWSCHPSTs "steel kyller" bullets, from my Malt Gallop Lightning Wear Cutaway Comp VII Holster, and getting into a Weaver stance... "

St. Peter interrupted: "I'm sorry, but there's no record of this good deed in my book... When did this happen?"

"About three minutes ago!"

So much for IPSC :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 15:51:19 (ZULU)

Finger,

That's a new one on me too. Maybe that's one of the new 700 triggers.

'lito,

Now that I have my screen wiped off! Have you seen a Rem. 700 trigger like the one Finger has?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 16:54:14 (ZULU)

Hey there hawgs, just making a drive by. Life has been interesting, to say the least. Committment isn't just a word.

Gooch, glad to see things are going well.

Got to see Joe M a week or two ago. Joe, I'm coming up in a couple weeks, or maybe we can hook up at Rudy's eh?

All - in the limited amount of training I have had, SUL was one of those things that definitely seems useful, especially in close quarters. The philosophy of "use what is useful" certainly seems practical. I was taught that there are a lot of ways to skin a cat....different techniques go in the tool box, use what works, and discard what doesn't. The trainer I worked with is very familiar with JJ and recommends him very highly....some of my training partners have traveled down to take his classes.

Finally, I lucked across an almost new stripped Savage 12 action with accu-trigger. I'm gonna do the "drop in" barrel thing with it. I surfed around Savage Shooters a bit, but the site is cumbersome and I'm about at my limit for remembering membership log-ons, and passwords and things. Who makes the nicest drop in match grade heavy barrel for the Savage?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 17:04:04 (ZULU)

Lindy, have not talked with Louis in awhile but he used to stay with me when he taught out here. I was one to get him POST Credentials in California. I had his complete CV/Resume. I did not include any of it because he keeps his past to himself. It was damm impresssive, but he has kept up with changing equipment and techniques. I think thats what makes him so special as an instructor.

Finger, never got to do anything with your buds. They kept offering me CONUS stuff but I have had enough working CONUS. Some cop from your time in Hatti soured one of the big guys on cops OCONUS work. They did steer me to some fun jobs.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 17:15:33 (ZULU)

Finger...

Sounds like you got one of the new triggers. They started shipping them in the spring of '06.

They are good triggers - better than the Timney.

Pull weight is the screw in the front, near the bottom of the housing (furthest from the barrel).

I brought mine to about 20 to 24 oz, and they are nice.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 17:22:50 (ZULU)

OK 'lito Thanks Can you answer me this? The screw (hex head) in the bacl for sear engagmment is inside where the body is open (unlike the old trigger). How did you break it loose? Did you heat the hex wrench or what. It seems like it is locked in place. I figured I needed to reset the sear engagement so it wouldn't slam fire when I dropped the weight down. The two hex head screws in the front (overtravel and trigger weight) seem to work fine.

Is there something I am missing or forgetting? I have eight rifles and four came with this trigger. They are the only ones kicking my butt.

Thanks,

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 17:52:43 (ZULU)

Finger...

They are not locked in place (they just look like that).

Rem has always put a coating of some glue like stuff over the screws.

I took a 1/16" hex wrench and just pushed it in the hole, and it broke the glue seals. The screw turns easily. Much better than the old blade screws.

The new triggers look funny at first, but they are really much better than the old ones.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 18:12:44 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito I will give it a try.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 18:32:09 (ZULU)

What can be learned from gamers. Shooting skills. They know how to get rounds on the target quickly and for the most part accurately. What can not be learned is Tactics. And how to use your mind to solve a difficult situation understress.

I must say Rob Leatham is a Awsome shooter and think he could get through a ruff situation. He mostly shoots iron sighted pistols and comes in at the top at the Bianchi Cup each year. He has been consistantly in the top 5 in recent years.

Dirty Steve......

I been welding and fencing and trying to stay dry with all this global warming hitting south Texas. ;)

DirtySteve
Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 20:29:10 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

When ya gonna come down for the day with Chuck. I told him you were welcome anytime.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 20:46:47 (ZULU)

Mike,

At the end when things got sticky with the rebels and such, we had a handful of cops quit on us and go home. I guess all of a sudden the money didn't look so good compared to the threat. Left us shorthanded when things were going sour for the boss. We did ok though. We got him out before the rebels or his own people knew what happened. Yeah I know, he said we kidnapped him and took him to Africa. He can say what ever he wants. The check always hit the bank on time. Including the last month.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 21:23:02 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

That was a pretty good thread. All I had to do was type "Jerry Barnhardt".

Pat II
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 00:24:33 (ZULU)

Charles,

I've often thought it'd be interesting to see how the IDPA guys would shoot if you shot training rounds or airsoft at them while they went through a course. If nothing else, it'd be funny as hell to watch!

On single actions:

The other night, some friends and I were farting around, and decided to compete "Vato style". We were shooting Ruger Vaqueros ...... sideways! It was a hoot! We were actually shooting pretty good groups, too. (we didn't do the above the head, stabbing the gun at the target thing, though)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 02:52:18 (ZULU)

Travis,

Have you tried the "Danny DeVito, over the shoulder, 'Romancing the Stone'" technique?

On another note, methinks some folks in the Air Force are in some hot goo. Transporting nuke tipped cruise missiles on a long range bomber, with no one knowing? "Air Force officials said the mistake was a serious breach of rules and that an investigation began immediately." Geeeeeezzzzzz.......

Pictures of Slim Pickins, flying the B-52, pop into my head.

Duman
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:20:28 (ZULU)

Duman,

You made my night. I just ordered the movie '1941'....one of the funniest of all times. Slim being ordered to poop at gun point and then acting out the 'event'...now that's class entertainment. You just can't get that kind of quality acting anymore.....I have to go to work to see behavior that rediculous these days and I've had to cut way back on the laughing in people's faces now that I work for them.

medicjim
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:52:08 (ZULU)

There actually is one good reason I can think of to shoot a pistol sideways - if you are behind a ballistic shield, and need to hold it that way in front of the shield to line up the sights.

You can actually shoot pretty well that way. I've been known to shoot that way deliberately against students, who think it gives them an advantage. It would, if I hadn't done that before...

We'll also shoot holding the pistol using only one finger on the grip, while standing on one foot, to show them that they don't have to have a death grip on the pistol, nor a solid stance, to shoot well, IF they can press the trigger straight to the rear without disturbing the sights.

We have some IPSC-silhouette-size steel, too, and with a little practice, you can hit them quite reliably with a pistol at 100 yards. Lots of ways to have fun with a handgun, which can also win you some beer bets.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:57:48 (ZULU)

Jim....get you a sharp-pointed little knife, or a needle or sumpin' and dig the rubber cement outta the little hex-head screws. The front on controls pull weight. Got mine from about 50 lbs down to just at 4 this afternoon.

I been trying to get Steve the Hygenically Challenged One to come down, but since he done got all them ani-mules, he done got all ree-sponsabul and stuff. Maybe next weekend. We can make him a role-player. With that red satin dress and the pumps, he'll turn every head in the joint. And most stomachs....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 05:34:33 (ZULU)

Pistol Country:

It would be interesting to see what would evolve out of a change in how "combat" pistol matches are scored. Traditional scoring uses elapsed time from a start signal to last shot.

We're getting close to the point where the video/computer technology would make a new scoring system possible: Target exposure time.

Course of fire would be laid out so that competitor exposure would be monitored from the point of view of the hostile targets to be engaged. Clock runs when competitor is exposed to hostile targets,

pauses when competitor is not exposed. Clock stops with last shot fired. Total exposure time would be one of the components of how the score is calculated. One of the technical challenges would be to pause exposure clock in a zone where all the hostile targets have been "solved". (Which implies a means of determining successful resolution of all hostile targets in a zone).

This would create a very strong incentive to use cover and minimize exposure to hostile targets.

The obvious question is - would the effort and ongoing cost needed to create such a system produce enough improvement in tactical technique to warrant the undertaking?

Comments invited...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 12:42:39 (ZULU)

[quote]The obvious question is - would the effort and ongoing cost needed to create such a system produce enough improvement in tactical technique to warrant the undertaking?[/quote]

The cost/benefit ratio seems pretty high, although I'd love to shoot on a range instrumented like that.

If you're interested in training effective tactical shooters rather than gamers, the best training method is force-on-force training using Simunitions, Airsoft, paintball, or something similar.

Targets which shoot back quickly teach the lesson about exposure time - especially if the hits hurt.

That's not the only benefit of such training - it also exposes people who are reluctant to shoot no matter what the threat, and conditions people to stay in the fight if hit. Good stuff.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territory of Mexico, Texas, N/A - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 14:34:56 (ZULU)

Right on Lindy, it is amazing what folks do under any stress at all, even with simulation training. I have seen them run away. I have seen them freeze and do nothing. I have seen them look at the ground and fire all their rounds into the ground.

We do a bunch of FX and airsoft here. The SEALs use it all the time. They each come with their weapons and FX conversion kits for each man. Some of our contracts really like the Force on Force senairio training after the firearms bloc. It shows them what works and what don't.

It drives home the moving to and using cover concept better then anything. If you lock into your perfect shooting stance, you will die there with glory.

Even up on the driving venue, when we get to ambush senairios, we hit the sides of the students cars hard with big ol paint balls for the sound effect. Add to it a couple IED simulaters and pucker factor goes up fast.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 18:31:45 (ZULU)

Some folks sure have jobs that sound more enjoyable than mine...

Lucky (read "smart") bastards!

medicjim
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 19:07:14 (ZULU)

Jim,

I am going to make it one day. With the wife in El Paso and all the horses and dogs make it tough to schedule time to do things.

However I shall make it before I retire.. Haha...

DirtySteve....

dirtysteve
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 20:26:20 (ZULU)

Gents,

Any you guys playing with the SAUM case for the 7mm's or doing the "defacto" WSM... or neck jerkin' the .30 or .270 cases?

Powder is H4831sc and I'm probably shockin 'em with 210m's.

I don't get stupid with brass cause I can't shoot fer nuthin, but would there be any advantage to the shorter SAUM hull?

Thankee.

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 02:07:26 (ZULU)

Geoff M;

Savage re-bareling is easy. I have done it quite a few times and if I can do it, anybody can. The best ready to install barrel for the money is Shilen. You can also get a Lother-Walther through Ferret50 or something like that. If you want a higher end barrel, you can get any of the barrel companies to make a barrel and then you will have a gunsmith chamber and thread for you (most charge around $150- if they have that reamer), installation is the same. You can get the Shilen pre-fit barrels from Midway.

The only thing to be aware of is that some of the Savage rifles use a large barrel shank (1.125" dia) and the rest use the standard shank (1.055" dia). The RUM, WSM, and new target/varmint actions will be large shank.

To do the job, you will need a bench vise with pipe jaws and something to wrap the barrel in, barrel nut wrench, action wrench (Rem 700 fits), dead blow hammer, thread lube, and headspace gauges or full length sized case. If you don't want to buy it all, let me know. I'm sure we can work out a way to let you borrow mine.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 03:02:35 (ZULU)

Jody, I might take you up on that. I talked to Joe M today....and we had the .308 vs. .260 discussion. Of course, all my supplies are in .308....but, I came up with an answer....do both!

I'm going to sit on the project for a little while, too many irons in the fire at the moment. But if Shilen is tops, I'll look at them closely when the time comes. Thanks for the info!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 04:15:56 (ZULU)

Ya know; Sul, weaver, quick draw, all that gets you "ready to shoot" is merely a starting point for action--the basics of a physical motion. The "leans" under intrument flight rules accomplishes just as much. But deadly force actions and your basic firearms' safety both use the exact same mechanism: the grey glob between ears. If you haven't thought about a very few shoot/ and myriad of no shoot criteria long and hard---you probably subscribe to fast is better. Fast is shit if you pop your kid. Or a friendly. Or your best buddy. What is it you expect to see in five, ten, or thirty minutes? Next 12 hours? If those are your thoughts with loaded guns on your person, you are just scratching the surface. It is only possible to swag the expected---what exacly do you expect to see to your front that you cannot shoot? That leaves the unexpected. And, if you aare already comparing the unexpected things to the "expected"--you are THINKING. And that puts you in the right frame of mind for deadly force encounters.

Practical shooters do not spend much time thinking about what not to shoot. It is "direction, distance, target" wihout fail.

Here's a scenario to test people. Take a shooter from a brightly lit room at night into a dark shoot house. Tell him there is an adversary in said house aiming to kill him. Orient him into room. Give him a three count to the engagement. Then use an unexpected flashbang and strobes to initiate the shoot/ no shoot (no warning). Present him with ONLY one target---a full size picture of his wife in a pink bathrobe.

Let me know how many don't collect the insurance policies.

Being able to hit everything fast is really cool. Right up until the first funeral.

I think the discipline to think ahead of the sear breaking is the mark of a true professional.

I dunno about the best ways to train this. But I once played a game with a dummie that was "friendly." The BGs were e-type half rounds, and maybe two or three dummies. Seems easy enough---a 3-D good guys and 2-D baddies. But the game was to set up the rescue force to get them to engage the friendly hostage. Dress him is BG uniforms, have him holding a BG in a nelson with an AK in his hands--anything to make that first instinct shot WRONG.

In just a few weeks, it got hard to trip up the entry guys. On film, we were fast as hell. In the rooms with live ammo---it was slow as shit. That really drove home that old saw: Slow is smooth...smooth is fast. If you have a short list of things to rule out before breaking the trigger, and an even shorter list of things that makes you pull that trigger---it "thinks" faster than you would believe. At that moment, the only opinion on how slow you are that counts is the guy you just shot. If you take all week to pop him in your mind, he's still gonna think "oh damn...he's fast..." when you actually do.

It has been alluded to here: There is nothing like a stack of four men doing an entry to put the "practical" in practical shooting.

Edited to add: IIRC, I was the last guy to stop killing the good guy in the example; I was also the youngest guy in the mix by some 4 years. Fast reflexescombined with immaturity (brash youth) are a distinct disadvantage in stress shooting fun and games.

Joe M
Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 05:00:40 (ZULU)

The Brits are starting to question their gun bans...click

Joe M
Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 17:15:01 (ZULU)

Pistol country..........

Just signed up at a new indoor pistol range. Annual membership for me and Doughlady included a discounted CCW class. Unfrigginfortunately Doughlady is a lefty. I doubt she's gonna want to shoot my properly oriented right handed stuff. Do you lefties out there have a suggestion or 2 for some southpaw pistols for her to try out?

Rifle stuff........

Just too damn hot to shoot. I hate popping primers. I've shot 2 matches in this crap and been to the range a couple of times only to damn near have heat stroke. Nuff said. I know, bitch, bitch, bitch.

Now have donor actions (aquired at horendously low costs) for a 300 short mag and a 7 short mag F-Open riffles. Another set of decisions to make.

My recently aquired DCM 40x 22lr target guns with Redfield International sights are due to arrive any day. On pins and needles hoping I didn't screw up this investment. Lito, I hope this works out down here contrary to what is happening in your end of the country with school shooting teams closing down.

Poppa Fred.......

Guess I need to sign up for Thompson's campaign. Looks like he will be the lessor of the evils next year.

Computer crap......

I went to a tomato disease site and when it came up it showed I was from the city I live in. How the hell does a web site know that?

Back to the dried up garden.....Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 21:02:18 (ZULU)

Hey Bolt my Tarheel state brother, The kids have been keeping me informed. NC has been about as hot as South Texas. It rained like easteren NC here in Texas this year. My first two years here, it was drier then a popcorn fart.

Hey, lefty pistols... Ya know most of the lefties in the pistol world didn't know they had a problem til all the ambi gizmos came out for them. I was thinking (I know) look at the Glocks. I'm thinking like a G19. My wife when she had her Carpul Tunnel (sp?) surgery on her right hand found the 19 easy to operate with her left hand alone. (rest of this story below at the end)

No trash on a Glock except a trigger and slide stop lever, which is easy for most lefties to lock to the rear. Left handers for years have been punching out mags with their trigger finger.

Just a thought, and you might save a few bucks if you already have a Glock or other pistols on hand. Maybe there are some SouthPaw member here with better ideas.

(rest of the above story)

Momma had her surgery and I had to go out of town a few days. She said, "Are you gonna leave me the 19?" I said ok but have you ever shot left handed only and can you work the pistol one-handed? She said, "NO, but your gonna teach me before you go." It went well. At the end of the day she could reload, clear stopages, shoot left handed at across the room distances while moving to cover. All this while yelling out to the bad guy, "Please leave my home, you poor unfortunate person!" Well, it was something kinda like that. I was proud of her.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 22:41:42 (ZULU)

I have Glocks, and sometimes shoot matches left-handed with them. My only beef is that the tip of my trigger finger gets sore from punching that magazine release a bunch of times. I don't use the slide lock to release the slide when it's locked back - I grip-and-rip the slide itself - so that's not an issue.

If I were going to shoot left-handed very much, I'd take a hard look at the Springfield XD, which has a true ambidexterous magazine release. There are a couple of other pistols which have reversible magazine releases, but I really prefer true ambidexterous. I have a Norgon ambidexterous mag release on my AR.

John Farnam doesn't like them, because of the potential for something bumping the outside of the pistol when it's holstered, releasing the magazine. He has a point, but I think that's a pretty low probability event, and I like being able to use a weapon the same from either side.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 22:59:26 (ZULU)

Lindy, did you see or handle the Glock after-market enlarged slide stop lever and mag button yet? One of the guys I know who works at Glock told me about them, but I have not yet seen or fondeled them. I slingshot the slide too and don't really need the new slide stop, but I know what you mean about the mag release. Takes some getting used to after shooting some of the other pistols for a bit.

Hope you and yours are fine.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 23:15:56 (ZULU)

Jim: as I mentioned, I don't much care about slide-stop levers. For a long time, the Glock enlarged mag releases weren't legal for IDPA competition unless factory installed. I think the rules have changed a bit about that, but I haven't played with them. I can work the regular ones fine - I just don't like the pain of left-handed operation. I'll check the rules.

We're fine. We spent the summer in the mountains of Colorado, so we missed the deluge. Got back a week ago, and have been cutting grass, poisoning fire ants in the yard, trimming mesquites, and killing snakes, including a small coral snake in a flower bed yesterday. There are still places on the range so wet I can't go in them except in the Polaris 6X6.

This is hard country. I have a lot of respect for the people who pioneered here - we're right next door to the King ranch. I'll be glad when we get a couple of cold fronts to dry things out - the heat index here yesterday afternoon was 115 degress - but I'm not holding my breath.

Hope y'all survived the rain OK.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 23:30:38 (ZULU)

Glocks for lefties:

One of my sinister friends was happily shooting a G19. He was satisfied with the factory slide stop/release.

I've shoot a G17 in IPSC matches for around 15 years, which includes shooting strong-hand disabled (I'm right-handed). Not the same as being a lefty, but it gives me a small taste of the experience.

The Glock factory extended mag release is available cheap too. I customize them to be slightly shorter, so they're in-between the regular and extended length. Easy to do since they are plastic. Checkering file puts grooves back on. Buy 2 or three, so if you flub your first modification attempt you don't have to wait.

This supplier has treated me well in the past, there are others:

http://www.glockmeister.com/

http://glockmeister.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/10_17/products_id/279

$US3.00 for mag catch

"G287 is stock for All 9/40/357 calibers

G1981 is stock for All 10mm/.45 but Extended for all 9mm/.40 cal/.357 cal models. If you want the Extended one like the G34 and G35, please order for the G20,21, 39,30, or 34, 35"

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 23:44:51 (ZULU)

(US) Politics Country:

From Friday Michael Bane blog:

http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/

"The good news is, of course, is that FRED THOMPSON IS FINALLY RUNNING FOR PREZ! What a surprise...a Republican who actually believes in the Second Amendment! A Republican who doesn't consider the gun culture — that would be us — as either the loony uncle in the closet or, at best, an afterthought. I tried watching the Republican "debates," but with the exception of Ron Paul it looked like a bunch of dwarves in search of a Snow White. I wouldn't willingly choose one of those guys to change the oil in my car."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 23:52:02 (ZULU)

Rod- loooong time ago I designed an IPSC match where the time was exposure to the target. If the RO stands in the rights spots (at least the way I set it up) they could time the exposure with a stopwatch. I did say this was long ago, right? The look on some of the faces were classic when they asked their times-despite the fact that the time system explanation was repeated several times, and several challenged it. Some got upset when I explained the tasking on the stages but didn't let them see where the targets were first.

I had the most fun with one stage that was an entry into multiple rooms. When they entered the first room (make that dramatic entry!), there was a target with a home-made (1X4 and 2 pieces of broomsticks) sawed off about 4 feet away. Only one guy survived this stage, several fell down jumping backward trying to escape.

WR Moore
Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 05:27:43 (ZULU)

For you John Farnam fans:

http://www.sofmag.com/news/authorresults.html?query=John%20Farnam

or click my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 11:46:14 (ZULU)

What do you guys use to remove carbon from the barrel just ahead of the chamber? That 243 i bought a couple of weeks ago is carboned up so bad it looks like your looking up a stove pipe. KG Industries has a carbon remover, but don't know anything about them.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 12:08:18 (ZULU)

re: IPSC stages (WR Moore).

The surprise IPSC stages are fun and educational, but are problematic in the context of a competition. (Can't re-shoot if range equipment failure, isolating competitors to avoid information leaks, etc). Problematic if the RO(s) also wanted to shoot the surprise stages.

You certinly have the right attitude on a better simulation of a gunfight!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 12:40:47 (ZULU)

What gets printed in SOF is one of Farnam's Quips and Quotes, all of which may be found here:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html

or just click on my name.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 12:52:40 (ZULU)

>" What do you guys use to remove carbon from the barrel just ahead of the chamber?"<

Brass brushes, good powder solvent, and elbow grease.

The "carbon" is actually a mix of garbage compounds. Mostly primer residue, powder ash, and a tiny bit of carbon.

Carbon is NOT soluble in anything.

But powder solvents do soften the deposits. They mostly work on the powder ash, which is the binder that keeps the whole thing together.

Once softened, the brush removes them... a little at a time.

There once was no talk of "carbon" in the barrel... because it was not allowed to build up.

But cleaning methods have changed over the last 10-15 years, and now, these black, grungy deposits are getting to be a real problem.

The onset of magical brass (only) removers, and foam wipes have made these deposits become an increasing problem.

I just spent some time cleaning a BR grade barrel to the point where there is NO residue and NO copper in it.

After a long soak in bore cleaner/copper remover, the patches come out dead white.

It was an effort.

Off to the sand box... I'm restocking an egg and crow riffle, and the 'poxie glass set over night.

Now, five Hail Mary's that the release agent worked, and pull the sucka apart ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 12:57:13 (ZULU)

re: carbon removal:

I use JB Bore Cleaner or Rem Clean and Kroil (penetrating oil). Both are very mild abrasives. They're great for dealing with carbon and moly residues that are not very easy to address with solvents.

Available from Brownells and Sinclair International.

worn or slightly smaller bore brush wrapped with a patch as usage is the normal pattern.

Custom barrel makers are mixed in their advice on using such products.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 13:10:55 (ZULU)

Say guys,Look what Petes up to !

http://www.roedale-psg.de/GB/index.htm

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 15:13:51 (ZULU)

>"Custom barrel makers are mixed in their advice on using such products."<

Most will not honor their warrentee if abrasoves are used.

To test an "abrasive" take a blob on a patch and rub it HARD on the underside of the barrel for a minute or so, just in front of the receiver lug... and then wipe it off.

If there are scratches on the steel... DON'T put it your barrel.

>'I use JB Bore Cleaner or Rem Clean and Kroil (penetrating oil)."<

I use Hoppe's #9, cuz it works, and it smells good too ;)))

I buy it by the gallon drum. When things are slow, I add it to Rum for a little "spice" ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 16:38:17 (ZULU)

Lito' Is that carbon coming from the Polyester powder manufacturers

are adding to the mix?

Alliant lists it as an ingredient on the container.

Is that the best use they found for those old cheap suits ??

Yikes !!

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 22:41:53 (ZULU)

re: locating by IP

Bolt asked: " I went to a tomato disease site and when it came up it showed I was from the city I live in. How the hell does a web site know that?"

Here is a web page to lookup your physical address by IP.

http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm?GetLocation

Simplified explaination of how it works:

http://www.analysespider.com/ip2location/ip_location_finder.html

Geolocation is a way of determining the real-time geographical location of an Internet-connected computer based on the IP address supplied by the Internet service provider. Geolocation involves in mapping IP address to the country, region , city , ISP.

2. How accurate is Geolocation?

The database has over 98% of accuracy in country and ISP level, 75% in region level and 63% in city level

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 23:27:57 (ZULU)

***********SPEW ALERT********SPEW ALERT***********

THE BEST COMEBACK LINE EVER!

Marine Corps General Reinwald was interviewed on

the radio the other day and you'll love his reply to

the lady who interviewed him concerning guns and

children.

Regardless of how you feel about gun laws you

gotta love this!!!! This is one of the best comeback

lines of all time.

It is a portion of National Public Radio (NPR)

interview between a female broadcaster and US Marine

Corps General Reinwald, who was about to sponsor a Boy

Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what

things are you going to teach these young boys when

they visit your base?

GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them

climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit

irresponsible, isn't it?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see why, they'll be

properly supervised on the rifle range.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is

a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see how. We will be

teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even

touch a firearm.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to

become violent killers.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, Ma'am, you're equipped

to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?

The radio went silent and the interview ended.

You gotta love the Marines!

Can I get a Hoorah?

Edited to add: I just found out, via SNOPES.com that the above, while entertaining, is untrue. It should be, though!

Here's the Link to the snopes deal: http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.asp

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Monday, September 10, 2007, at 02:05:56 (ZULU)

Travis:

Interview is Internet legend. (Too bad).

http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.asp

Snopes is your friend.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, September 10, 2007, at 02:16:07 (ZULU)

On Carbon Fouling:

Slip 2000 Carbon Killer gets all that crud outta the barrel.

http://www.slip2000.com/carbonkiller.html

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, September 10, 2007, at 05:10:32 (ZULU)

CARBON DEPOSITS AND ELBOW GREASE.

You sure hit that nail on the head. Thanks for the input.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, September 10, 2007, at 10:14:51 (ZULU)

9/11 We'll never forget !

God rest their souls.

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 12:14:55 (ZULU)

Last night, I watched most of Petraeus' testimony. He's really a smooth, intelligent, no-nonsense, political guy. He layed out the situation, an action plan, and tried to calibrate expectations. Then there was the obligitory supplication to the politicos. The kind of guy who can tell someone they're a jerk, and leave them smiling.

He openly spoke of Iran's involvement in the uprisings. I'm not convinced we're going to be able to avoid conflict with Iran. Iran's passive-aggressive behavior is wearing thin.

Duman
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 13:55:29 (ZULU)

Those of you who are coming to Idaho for the fall hunt should check the hunting site. It is getting close.

Markwell: If you are out there, contact me. We can meet in Victor. I'll buy you a burger and a beer and we can go look at some country.

CDC'
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 19:08:36 (ZULU)

This is entertaining, a little horseplay with tanks.

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/2007826221433.aspx

Here's a terrorist taking himself:

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/200782122250.aspx

Duman
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 21:20:45 (ZULU)

Dangerous Assault Tools:

First we had to worry about guns, then rocks, now it's tools. Will the world ever be safe?

http://www.allmax.com/MILT/

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 23:11:31 (ZULU)

I've agreed to participate in a paintball game. Sooo......I found a feller needing some money to mend fences with his wifey for past transgressions and over spending his hobby accounts. He had a Tippman A5 with a wheelbarrow full of goodies for a smidgen of monetary reimbursement. I don't need another hobby but this sounds kinda interesting. Now I have to learn the ins and outs of the game and how to field strip the weaponry. I also have read that there are paint grenades and all sorts of other stuff to color the enemy with.

Butner match this weekend. Anybody intersted?

Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 02:18:11 (ZULU)

Gentlemen, may we for a moment venture into the land of .....

Reloading Country?

I have a friend who`s in search of a "spare" powder measure for his brand new Hornady Lok`N Load progressive. He called Hornady looking for said measure, which they apparently show on their site, and was politely informed that he cannot get one unless he buys another complete Lok`N Load set up. Needless to say, He wishes he`d have gone with another brand at this point.

Do any of you have any input on this? I can`t believe they wouldn`t sell him one but he says not. Thanks for any help.

BTW, my press is a Lovely baby blue color and have had very few complaints about it over the years (except for the powder measure you have to babysit). I tried to tell him, but.....

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 06:44:06 (ZULU)

Steve...

I don't know where your friend got that crap, but it's pure crap.

Tell him to go to:

http://www.midwayusa.com/

Then type "hornady powder measure" in the search box, and he'll have a full page of Hornady measures.

All he has to do is order them.

Some guys are so verbally handicapped, that they can't order pussy in a whore house ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 11:34:02 (ZULU)

Jody, That's too funny! I had to bookmark that page.

Lito: Shakespeare's got nothin' on you! LMAO!

Duman
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 14:42:45 (ZULU)

< I use Hoppe's #9, cuz it works, and it smells good too ;))) >

Mmmmm, Hoppes #9, I was just cleaning my .45 with that exact same concoction this morning.

S/F

Kush

Kush
Havelock, NC, - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 18:25:23 (ZULU)

Hi Kush,

It's been quite a spell since your last post. Welcome back. Are you still a phrogman?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 18:43:40 (ZULU)

Prayers out for Brian Sain and all the others over there on the Gulf coast. Sounds like a ton of rain comming their way.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 00:49:38 (ZULU)

Doc,

Thanks, just got back from a 4 year strech overseas to include 2 trips to the sand box. It's good to be back, I can't wait to get my TMO to get all my shootin' irons out of storage.

Still flying the Phrog, will be doing SAR out of Cherry Point NC for at least the next few years.

Take it easy

S/F

Kush

Kush
Havelock, NC, - Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 02:59:44 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Just finished "The 47th Samurai" by Stephen Hunter. It's a Bob Lee Swagger tale without his usual sniper stuff. Can you say samurai sword? As always, with Stephen Hunter novels, it's a "good read".

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The crisp Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 05:28:10 (ZULU)

Guys,

Got this from a forwarded e-mail. Enjoy.

Subject: Marines & Tampons

MARINES AND TAMPONS (A GREAT STORY)

Tampons to the rescue in Iraq!! Don't worry, it's a good story, and worth reading. It's even humorous in parts. It's from the mother of a Marine in Iraq.

My son told me how wonderful the care packages we had sent them were and wanted me to tell everyone thank you. He said that one guy we'll call Marine X, got a girl care package and everyone was giving him a hard time. My son said, "Marine X got some really nice smelling lotion and everyone really likes it, so every time he goes to sleep they steal it from him." I told my son I was really sorry about the mistake, and if he wanted I would send Marine X another package. He told me not to worry about Marine X because every time I send something to him, Marine X thinks it's for him too.

He said when my husband and I sent the last care package, Marine X came over to his cot picked up the box, started fishing through it, and said, "What'd we get this time?"

My son said they had the most fun with Marine X's package. He said he wasn't sure who we were sending the pack to, but the panties were size 20, and he said one of the guys got on top of the Humvee and jumped off with the panties over his head and yelled, "Look at me, I'm an Airborne Ranger!!!!" One of the guys attached the panties to an antenna and it blew in the wind like a windsock. He said it entertained them for quite awhile. Then of course.......they had those tampons.

When he brought this up, my imagination just went running, but he continued. My son said they had to go on a mission and Marine X wanted the Chap-Stick and lotion for the trip. He grabbed a bunch of the items from his care package and got in the Humvee. As luck would have it he grabbed the tampons too, and my son said everyone was teasing him about "not forgetting his feminine hygiene products."

He said things went well for a while, then the convoy was ambushed and a Marine was shot. He said the wound was pretty clean, but it was deep. He said they were administering first aid but couldn't get the bleeding to slow down, and someone said, "Hey! Use Marine X's tampons!" My son said they put the tampon in the wound. At this point my son profoundly told Me, "Mom, did you know that tampons expand?" ("Well....yeah!")

They successfully slowed the bleeding until the guy got better medical attention. When they went to check on him later The surgeon told them, "You guys saved his life. If you hadn't stopped that bleeding he would have bled to death." My Son said, "Mom, the tampons sent by the Marine Moms by mistake saved a Marine's life."

At this point I asked him, "Well, what did you do with the rest of the tampons?"

He said, "Oh, we divided them up and we all have them in our flak jackets, and I kept two for our first aid kit."

I am absolutely amazed by the ingenuity of our Marines. I can't believe that something that started out as a mistake then turned into a joke, ended up saving someone's life. My sister said she doesn't believe in mistakes. She believes God had a plan all along. She believes that "female care package" was sent to Marine X to save our Marine.

Either way, our efforts have boosted the morale of many Marines, provided much needed items for our troops, AND saved the life of a Marine! God bless every one of you for your efforts and hard work, and God bless our Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force and all our military service personnel.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, September 14, 2007, at 05:57:39 (ZULU)

Guys,

We lost SPC-4 Marvin L. Morgan (my grandad) at about 1 A.M. yesterday morning.

If any of you knew him at Ft. Leonard Wood or Ft. Lewis in the 50's or 60's, I'd sure like to hear from you.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 05:36:11 (ZULU)

Travis,

My condolences on your loss. Grandparents are tough to lose. Mine all live on only in my heart. Prayers incoming.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 06:38:57 (ZULU)

Steve,

Thanks. He raised me, and I'll always miss him. He was a tough old bastard, and a friend to anyone that needed one.

I picked up my guns that were on loan to him, and notice the front sight on my '94 was buggered. According to Winchester, it was made in '71 or '72, as I recall. Which are the best sights for it? I hate apertures, ghost rings, and fiber optics. Also, what is the correct front sight height for this gun? The serial number is 3494XXX.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 06:53:45 (ZULU)

Check out this article. I hate that a brother officer was shot, but where does this ATF agent get his info on how guns are bought and sold in the US?

AKs by mail for under $200 yeah right Wanna bet it was a semi-auto?

PDs that are under armed.....adminstration is the problem.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SOU_ASSAULT_WEAPONS_FLOL-?SITE=FLDAY&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-09-14-22-08-25

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 17:06:44 (ZULU)

Jim:

(Politics Country)

Assault weapon - anti-gunner "code phrase" for cosmetically challenged self-loading long gun. Most examples are semi-auto.

The $200 quoted price might be for an SKS. J&G Sales has used units listed for $150.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/yugoslavian-sks-59-66-good-condition-/products_id/373

I think the anti-gunners consider the SKS an "assault weapon" too. They love to play bait and switch in those attack articles. No lawful mail-order for guns to non-FFL's in the US, don't know where they dreamed that up. (Unless they are talking about unlawful sales).

The writer seems to be trying to manufacture support for a revival of the so-called (federal) Assault Weapon Ban.

Guess he didn't get the memo that even the anti-gun politicians are avoiding campaigning on anti-gun measures since it loses them large numbers of votes.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 19:05:41 (ZULU)

An interesting comparison of M-16 and AK 47.

You can see the barrel on the AK flexing when firing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&NR=1

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 23:55:57 (ZULU)

Thanks Jim ...

Well, survived another direct hit from a hurricane.

This is getting old.

Humberto was supposed to be a 40 mph tropical storm ... my ass.

Woke up to the fastest evolving Cat 1 in history (hours) and it hit P.A. Texas square in the nose, just like RITA.

Nothing left at my place to blow down after RITA though.

Lots of roofs, trees gone ... some looting.

Power off four days ... what fun.

Got a new OPS INC. 15th Model can for the AR though so ...

Life is good.

OUT

brian k. sain
Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 02:07:41 (ZULU)

Travis,

Sorry to hear about your Grandfather.Hope that was #3 for a long time.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 05:31:34 (ZULU)

Brian,

I am just thankful you and yours are ok. Remember, I have a home back in coastal NC. Part of the price we pay to live in paradise. ;)

I'm bummed out this morning. One of the kids from my AWANAS JV group at church was killed yesterday. He and his twin brother took a revolver out back on the ranch and there was an accident. I don't have the whole story yet. I will have to ask the county Ranger that lives down the road when I see him. Damn.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 13:16:15 (ZULU)

FN Rifles

I need some info about them. It's the Hunting rifle in 308 with a Weaver 3x. I'am not fimiliar with these guns. The guy wants 250.00 for it.

Gary Kaney
NW, ILL, - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 15:02:16 (ZULU)

Sorry to hear about the hit, Brian - you've had more than your share. I had my eye on that one from the beginning. And, worse, the forecast discussion for here includes the possibility of a system firing up in the Caribbean this week, and moving into the Gulf of Mexico. Keep your eyes peeled, and your gas tank full.

We have a precision rifle class here this coming week, and it may get...shorter. Or wetter. Or both.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 18:40:56 (ZULU)

Travis,

My condolences on the loss of your Grandfather. If I'm reading my catalog correctly the Winchester part number for that 94 front sight is 103F and it's .360 high.

Gary,

I'm no expert on FN rifles; but for $250 I'll take it. The latest Blue Book value with only 60% finish remaining is $295 for the F.N. Mauser Sporter Deluxe and $375 for the F.N. Supreme. According to a friend of mine there are three things to consider in putting a value on a gun. 1. How bad do you want it? 2. How bad do you want it? And finally for number 3. How bad do you want it? That's what it's worth. ;o)

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 19:24:30 (ZULU)

I've never known the ATF to bother with facts. Any agency, and it's agents, that makes a living infringing the un-infringable (i.e. the Constitution)is inherently suspect and IMHO un-American. But, like the man said, you don't gotta like it, you just gotta do it.

Hey, Finger.....just exactly what temperature does licorice melt at, anyway?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas , USA - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 00:30:51 (ZULU)

Jim ... been to my share of those.

One was really bad. OLD man (95 plus) had a .357 revolver in a drawer.

Bullets elsewhere but his great grandkids found both, loaded same, and one child was shot point blank while laying in the bed. Killed instantly.

Old man was on the porch, deaf and never heard the shot.

Kid that fired the shot was screaming, drug his brother off the bed onto the floor trying to get him to his great grandfather .... huge blood trail.

Entire detective division rolled on it. Happened right after we had just eaten lunch.

Tragic as hell.

I started the Eddie Eagle gun safety program here after that.

Once, a teacher asked the kids how many of them knew someone that had been shot?

HALF of the kids in the auditorium raised their hands.

I thought NO WAY ... so quickly ... at random ... I picked ten of them and had them come up to the stage.

ALL TEN had a story to tell.

Now mind you this was in a poverty stricken ghetto school.

The program took off and I was asked to do it all over.

Every time I taught the class I would ask the same question "How many of you know someone that has been shot"

EVERY TIME ... roughly half of the audience had a story to tell.

This from poor minority kids to well to do, private school kids.

Now I am as pro gun as anyone on this board ... but I found this astonishing.

Even for a 20 year street cop/detective.

Stay low brothers.

brian k, sain
Monday, September 17, 2007, at 02:45:41 (ZULU)

FN Mausers - have 7: 1 Sears, 1. Montgomery Wards, 1 FN Deluxe, 1 Husky, and 3 military. They are the most under-rated actions around. The only standard production actions of the same type (controlled feed/claw extractor) that might be better would be a pre-64 Winchester M70 action or a CZ Brno action of the same era. (And that is arguable.)

FN made complete rifles for direct import under their name, and sold actions to Marlin, Colt, Sako, Husky, Sears, Montgomery Wards, Browning, etc. The actions are very good, though the quality of wood on some of the US store-brand rifles was so-so.

I don't recall that FN made a .308 in their own name, but I loaned out my Blue Book. Olsen says that they made a .243, so they might have made a .308. They did not make a short action in their own name. For $250 it might be a "custom" rebarrel on a commercial action. That is not necessarily bad - depends who did the work, barrel maker, stock, etc.

The original FNs will have their proof marks on the barrel as well as the action. It won't be a mystery - if so it is a good price, even if it is a later rifle. And the commercial Sears/JC Higgins/Husky guns have roll-marked barrels.

If the barrel lacks the FN proof marks or a commercial roll mark, it is most likely re-barreled. If the receiver has a thumb cut, it is a sporterized military rifle - in which case $250 is probably about the most it would be worth, unless a name smith did the work.

The action alone is probably worth $200 if it is a post-war commercial FN 98 Mauser action in original condition. (I would buy it if it was not butchered.) And if the barrel is good, you can't really go wrong for $250. They are not hard to rebarrel, and there are a lot of after-market stocks out there, including Boyds, Butler Creek, and Richards Microfit.

There are a number of different manufacturing changes with FN Mausers over time, between 1947 and 1970 (as with all firearms) to save money. You might look at Olson's "Mauser Bolt Action Rifles", page 269-272 (in the 3rd Edition, anyway) for details.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 06:31:22 (ZULU)

Moron w/AK video. Click.

Thanks for the well wishes, guys. I think I'm gonna fucking choke the next person that tells me how bad it is for THEM that Dad died. Funerals suck, and this "viewing" horseshit the day before is obviously just to make the funeral home money. Not to mention, it's creepy and wierd.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 07:15:02 (ZULU)

Doc & P Hayden

I was buying sight unseen, that's why i asked. I should have bought first and asked later, missed it by 2 hours.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 10:25:50 (ZULU)

I have been waiting for this to happen. Read the link. The motorcade got attacked, it had folks from DOS in the vehicles, they defended themselves, a vehicle was diabled. Now, they are being thrown out of country supposedly for killing "inocent" bystanders.

This is not good. Maybe it is time to leave and just turn the place to glass.

http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/world/story/1822697/

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 15:03:51 (ZULU)

On Saturday I stood on a hill and watched a black bear forage. I had five good looks at him. He ranged 293 yards away and it was open season.

But I wasn't carrying a rifle.

"Couda, Woulda, Shoulda"

Gary Kaney: Please call my house and leave your number on the machine. I'll call you back.

CDC'
Monday, September 17, 2007, at 16:28:43 (ZULU)

Gary:

If you want to check the pawn shops and smaller gun shops, you will eventually find a used FN 98 commercial rifle, probably one of the store brands build on an FN action, and probably in .30-06 or .270. Keeps your eyes open. It is worth the wait.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 23:16:14 (ZULU)

CDC,

I believe that's one of the reasons Elmer Keith carried a sidearm!

Guys,

FYI, for those that didn't know.... In some states, at least Kansas, anyway, you have to have a court order to keep people from removing property from a deceased person's home. About an hour after Dad died, I got a call that 2 uncles of mine were at his house loading stuff up. Since I was pissed, armed, and 40 miles away, I called the Sherriff's office and the executor of the estate. The Sherriff's deputy told me they couldn't do squat without a court order! Not even the executor could stop it, legally.

Fortunately, the property was recovered the next day, without incident or charges, but it sure as hell woulda ended up with somebody's guts hanging on the fence if not. My uncle claimed he was "securing" the stuff. I always thought that meant locking the doors, not loading your truck in the middle of the night.

Oh, well, I'm pretty sure Dad took measures in his will in anticipation of stuff like this. Same uncle did a bunch of dirty deeds when his Mom died.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at 06:15:30 (ZULU)

Travis...

It's amazing what you see with family, once someone dies. Good ol' unka Charlie becomes a vulture... along with most of the family.

The death of my grandfather (who was pretty well off) destroyed the remaining family, as all the sweet loving people came in for the feed fest, and cut each other to ribbons in the process.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at 10:06:06 (ZULU)

Catdude: My uncle got the Enfield my Grand Dad paid $12 for during the Hoover administration. Fine. He called me up and said that his goof-ball religion forbade weapons, so he would sell it to me for about quadruple it's value. I never did find out what happened to the rifle.

I inherited a pocket knife. That is enough. I don't need any more.

CDC'
Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at 13:50:00 (ZULU)

The War;

This is a series by Ken Burns (Civil War fame) and PBS. It looks at WW2 through the eyes of the veterans, families and communities.

One on the four cities they look at is Mobile, AL. Hey, that's where I live ; )

http://pressroom.pbs.org:80/programs/the_war

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, September 19, 2007, at 02:46:13 (ZULU)

There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some Exchange students in the class.

One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back And stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked,

'Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'

The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke.

'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn.

When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence.

They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in The last side.

The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how To forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America.

The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms- just a little at a time.

One should always remember 'There is no such thing as a free Lunch!'

Also, 'You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Also, if you see that all of this wonderful government 'help' is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America, you might want to send this on to your friends. If you think the free ride is essential to your way of life then you will probably delete this email, but God help you when the gate slams shut!

TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Robert A. Heinlein

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 19, 2007, at 03:28:23 (ZULU)

I put a set of Steiner 15X56 binos (see link) that I got a couple of weeks ago on the Emporium for $350. Steiner sent them to me as replacements. These are good, but I NEED the Swaros.

CDC'
Wednesday, September 19, 2007, at 13:41:25 (ZULU)

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