Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 2007

Powerpoint Country :-)

http://www.nbc-links.com/powerpoint.html

or click my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 1, 2007, at 03:19:01 (ZULU)

MedicJim: Those goofy little fun tabs were pretty popular in the higher HQs overseas. A few serving their staff senetences would push the envelope by wearing them in briefings. A game of sorts---can theyget away with it? I guess if you have no other war stories...this is as good as it gets:)) PPT hell is the life of a staff guy. Our army has devolved to the coolest slide. No shit. We all saw it coming (us LTs) when harvard graphics added clipart in 92. Then, in late 93---email. We saw how "fire and forget" and the urge to command thru this path of least resistance would lead to major disconnects. Many, many commanders' answered this by read receipt and "acknowledge." All the while proclaiming they would never ever command-by-email. Ha! It is this very thing that leads to shit like Abu Ghraib. Computer networking is the bane of solid leadership. I stand by that assessment. I do not give a flying shit about any of the benefits--the downsides are simply not worth it. And, I swear, my cohort brother LTs in Alaska saw this coming in the early versions of this technology. It is form over function---not the info on the slide...but does each slide indent dress-right-dress with the previous??? I am not kidding.

I was watching a story about the bomb threats on FNC. They had a shot of a SWAT team on a roof. two guys were poking around a roof vent, the other was pulling "security." That guy's actions made me question training: He was scanning around an arc---thru his freakin' sights on his weapon. It looked like an eotech, which t least has a better F|OV than an aimpoint---but, WTF? He was placing his muzzle on everything in front of him---newsies, civies, whatever. I sure hope this guy is an exception to a rule. |In that situation, he would have been better served with an "at ready" hold of his choice, while having an unobstructed view as he used his swivel mounted head to good effect.

To flag everything before him like that looked amateurish as hell.

I tried these things with these .asp files. IE opens them just as eff'd up as viewer did. The first few that opened in IE on their own opned just fine, as stated. But I think a deep config has altered in my system. I haven't dug it up. My solution will be to fire up my laptop and transfer the zip files, then extract them there. I'll see what happens. This version of XP maybe "patched" with yet another POS "fix" that causes this problem for me. Yes, I D/L'd the files and viewed a few just prior to another unsolicited patch (my wife's profile is set up to accept these, I think)

My virus shield just popped a virus. Had to come in in java or a word.doc. Time to investigate.

Joe M
Sunday, September 2, 2007, at 07:45:52 (ZULU)

Good eats!

;)))

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6974687.stm

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 2, 2007, at 20:23:21 (ZULU)

Joe M.....some dipshit pulled that method of "scanning" off TJ Hooker and plugged it into the training cycle. It looked cool, so everyone started copying it. Five departments and ten years later, it's gospel, because "it is written". If you're a trainer, it's easier to just do what the other guy is doing so you'll have your LCCDI program up and running to please the department heads who want something NOW. Why bother thinking of whether it makes any sense? And, guess what, it's in the SWAT DNA, now. Guilty myself. Had some long talks about that with LT Johnson of Clovis. Thought he was dumber'n dirt and injecting PC to tactics, until I started thinking about how I almost shot someone. In any case, I'm starting to think that most SWAT teams are training themselves into obsolescence. They're still training against the guy that just wigged out and killed his wife, holed up in the house and is desperately trying to figure out how to get out without going to jail. First real group of dedicated, motivated 11B types, or as-shaheed, they're toast. Try telling them that, though.....Army hated giving up the horses, didn't they?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, September 2, 2007, at 21:34:02 (ZULU)

Fire tactics evolve when groups of firemen die using the old tactics. I'd hate to see it go that way, but I think that's likely how SWAT teams will learn as well.

medicjim
Monday, September 3, 2007, at 04:45:57 (ZULU)

Army hated giving up the horses, didn't they?

Charles S. Hunt

There used to be saying that: "Cavalry brings class to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl".

You guys are very right, way too much "training" gets lifted from TV and what looks tactikewl. I argued myself to the edge of likely separation over some of this stuff. Took 9/11 for reality to sink in with the upper echelons.

However, there is another way if you recall the operative definition of "expert" (Someone from outside and/or >30 miles from their place of employment.). Have someone from outside look at your program and ask, "WTF are you doing this shit?" Followed by:"No responsible progarm does it that way."

On the cheekweld scanning: I ask them if they've ever seen figure skaters/dancers spin? Do they notice that their arms & legs are tucked in close? When they want to slow down they extend their arms? A trial or 2 with a PACT timer will show them it's faster to acquire the target and them mount the weapon. They're also losing the ability to see stuff blocked by the weapon in firing position.

WR Moore
Monday, September 3, 2007, at 12:06:32 (ZULU)

Looking for pet loads for a 243. Just picked one up this weekend. Thinking along the line of Hornady 87 grn. V Max.

Thanks in advance

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, September 3, 2007, at 14:46:23 (ZULU)

If you're looking through a scope, optical device or set of pistol/rifle sights, you tend to lock onto what you see through that device. Peripheral vision is limited, and you just can't see much BELOW what you're scanning. You're also violating one of the four laws of firearms....you're pointing a loaded weapon at an unknown quantity.

The SWAT guys are generally bright, motivated and sincere people. But they can only go with what they are trained with, and that generally is somewhat behind the power curve, as with most things. And I respect what they do, and their abilities. I do wish that my department would stop pissing away money on trivial crap and start training the poor, dumbass patrol pukes in the same things, so that when the balloon goes up, everyone would be on the same page. Ain't gonna happen.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, September 3, 2007, at 14:51:03 (ZULU)

Good input Chuck.

Scanning, Yeah, I teach it. I believe it is one of the most important habits we instill in our students.

I have no idea what the SWAT cop, Joe was speaking of, was doing or the circumstances of the incident. I am assuming that if there were news folks and other lookie-loos that close it was fairly secure or the perimeter was never secured properly in the first place. I also see no reason for flagging innocent folks.

I teach a 540 degree scan. 360 around and 180 up and down. It is accomplished immediately after stopping a deadly threat and does a few things for the officer/solider/operator. It keeps his mind in the game and breaks the tendency for tunnel vision during a stressful time. It also helps you find that “one more” threat out there. It is important to use the eyes to find the threat. The ears can be too deceiving, especially in a built up area where sound bounces in all directions and its origin can be very deceiving.

And yes, that scan is taught to the student to look over the sights and aiming device. It only requires the shooter to lower the weapon an inch or so. He should be in this position during scan, during a room entry and any other time he is facing an immediate threat. If that is not the situation, I teach that the shooter should be in the high or low carry with a shoulder weapon. That is with the muzzle straight up or straight down between the feet. I have no use for any of the other in-between positions. There is either an immediate threat or not.

I am of the same thought with a pistol. It’s either pointing at a potential threat or in the SUL position (center chest and pointing down between the feet). If the threat is not immediate, holster the thing.

OK off my box.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, September 3, 2007, at 15:22:44 (ZULU)

Also, when you watch those dancers, watch their heads. Notice that they are almost stationary? They're LOOKING at a fixed object to keep from getting dizzy. Looking. You can't shoot what you can't see. Corollary note: I was watching some doofus movie on TV last night, only because the blonde was hot. She was a "cop" and kept holding the gun in the Charlie's Angel pose, besid the right ear. I had an irrational urge to jump at the screen and yell BOO! just to watch her torch off a round and blow an eardrum......

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, September 3, 2007, at 16:23:24 (ZULU)

Charles-you bring up excellent points. Large, lawsuit shy and many other organizations are very slow to change-unless the body count goes up. By the time some concept gets recognized as a better way to do business, someone backs it and sends it up the ladder as a suggestion, upper echelons think about it, the legal department OKs it, a training course is created and training starts....you're looking at 5-7 years. I had the opportunity to time some concepts from recognition to becoming the "new practice" from major training sources.

Everyone needs the new training...preferably by the same guy. I've seen too much get lost in the "train the trainer, the trainer trains the troops" system. The amount lost depends upon the quality of the trainer-and management to some variable degree.

Good catch on the head thing, I stress that the eyes stay on the threat while the body indexes, overlooked mentioning it.

WR Moore
Monday, September 3, 2007, at 18:11:20 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

I agree with WR Moore. So does Jerry Barnhart.

Pat II
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 00:27:16 (ZULU)

(US) Politics Country:

http://www.imwithfred.com/

http://www.imwithfred.com/NewsRoom/PressRelease.aspx?ID=fdcf5633-fa86-4885-84bc-db733495857e

McLean, VA – On September 6, 2007, Fred Thompson will be announcing his intention to run for President of the United States with a webcast available to millions at www.imwithfred.com. The launch of the video will be followed by a five-day campaign tour through Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina.

One of the better candidates if the 2nd Amendment is your hot button...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 01:15:27 (ZULU)

Pat,

Jerry "The Burner" is a great shooter, but when was he last in a real street gunfight or on convoy security in the desert?

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 03:08:51 (ZULU)

Jim:

Jerry probably doesn't have a lot of "street creds", but has spent a lot of time analysing how to quickly engage targets.

Since he is training LEO's and military he probably has spent time analysing the problems they face, not just competitive technique.

http://www.jerrybarnhart.com/

"Jerry has been conducting classes for the Department of Defense, Federal and Law Enforcement personnel for more than 15 years. In teaching as many as 25-30 weeks a year, Jerry has amassed a great deal of knowledge, training hours and has worked with thousands of students over those years. By continually perfecting his training abilities his goal is to provide the best instruction available today.

Courses are available on all handguns, M-4/M-16 rifles, SR-25, SMG and a variety of shotguns. (Other long gun courses available upon request.) Although Jerry’s background stems from winning National and World Championship competition matches, these are serious, work-related, tactical training courses – not competition courses! Each class will be tailored to fit the specific needs of the group being taught."

FBI used to shoot from a "combat crouch" until they were introduced to and adopted "The Modern Technique".

Bruce Lee said - absorb what is useful.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 05:18:35 (ZULU)

I shot with Jerry a few times before he became famous. Street creds never came up, don't recall what he did for a living then and don't think they exist.

There are things that can be learned from the gamers that can be applied in the real world. Yes, various agencies have retained these guys to do some training-Jim and others can describe that far better than I. Yes, the training CAN work both ways, how much is variable. And yes, post Miami '87, a whole lot of folks looked at training "outside the box".

However, not all competition stuff works-or is a good idea- on the street. For example: the very impressive speed shooting "The Burner" is capable of isn't applicable when you have to identify your targets before engaging them. To shorten this spiel up, many agencies filter what the competition guys show them before it gets to the troops. Now I'm speaking in general here, not about any specific person, but the guy who did limited scope training and now claims that "I trained_____________." is not entirely truthful.

Now, one sterling advantage these kinda guys may have is that if they discover applicable new techniques, it doesn't take 5-7 years to get permission to spread the message. The downside is that they can relay information without context, which has happened on the website of one respected trainer.

WR Moore
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 13:32:31 (ZULU)

I think I may as well give up on this pointy-headed elitest thingie. It`s obvious I am never going to reach this level of enlightenment. Get your duct tape out.

http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article_buy.cfm?article_id=6672

I wasn`t aware that right and wrong were subject to the requisite of popularity. Pretty high and mighty for a religion that celebrates the virtues of Dietrich Bonhoffer every year without actually speaking of his attempts on the life of Adolf Hitler. The ultimate hypocracy, IMHO. And yes, I am a Lutheran. Not sure for how much longer. The older I get get, the more I am convinced there is a huge difference between Christians and people who believe in God.

Excuse me while I struggle with my faith. Thanks for listening.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 14:36:10 (ZULU)

OOps, sorry, I just realized the whole article isn`t there. I`ll work on it.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 14:57:48 (ZULU)

OK, try this. Sorry for the bandwidth. And, yes, Mr. Chilstrom is a pastor.

September 2007 issue

Story by

Herbert W. Chilstrom

What do we do now about the war in Iraq? 'Continuing is immoral'

In April 2003 most Americans thought the war in Iraq would be short-lived and the outcome would be total victory for President George W. Bush and the American forces.

My family and friends must have thought I was the ultimate pessimist when I wrote to them: “I’ve been to the Middle East too many times and have read too much about that part of the world to feel good about the ultimate outcome of what’s happening. I fear we’re in for a long, long time of increasing terrorism. No one wants to be proven wrong. But in this case, I hope I will be.”

Now, instead of being part of a small minority who opposed the invasion of Iraq, I find myself linked with a growing majority who question the wisdom in undertaking a war that appears to have no end in sight.

It would be tempting to gloat over my prediction. But that would be pointless.

The political and religious dynamics of the Middle East are too complex and the consequences of the outcome of this war are too serious for anyone to take pride in one’s opinion.

Where can we turn for help in looking at the larger picture? I find no better resource than the wisdom of Reinhold Niebuhr, one of America’s premier theologians of the last century.

It was he who advised all preachers to prepare their sermons with the Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other.

He was often referred to as a “theologian of public life.” (That, in fact, is the title of the collection of his writings from which I quote. Reinhold Niebuhr: Theologian of Public Life, ed. by Larry Rasmussen; Augsburg Fortress, reprint edition, 1991.)

With flags waving everywhere and politicians of every stripe ending their speeches with appeals for God to bless America, Niebuhr reminds us that no nation is immune to the kind of self-aggrandizement that blinds us to our own faults:

“Patriotism is a high form of altruism, when compared to lesser and more parochial loyalties; but from an absolute perspective it is simply another form of selfishness. The larger the group the more certainly will it express itself selfishly in the total human community. It will be more powerful and therefore more able to defy any social restraints which might be devised. It will also be less subject to internal restraints.”

Why do we think the U.S. is superior to all other nations on earth, that we can wield our military power in defiance of world opinion, that we can preside over the disintegration of another culture in the name of “enlightened self-interest?”

Niebuhr would suggest that it is rooted in that dark side of humanity that shows itself in an unhealthy pride that insists on putting ourselves on a higher pedestal than other nations.

Our problem is further compounded by the assumption of many that we are a “Christian nation” and, even more, by the comfort many take in having a leader who claims to be a “born-again Christian,” who prays to God for wisdom before starting a war. The sober reality is that we are not now and never have been a “Christian nation.”

Most of our Founding Fathers believed in a Supreme Being who created the world and established moral order. But they were also humanists who were convinced that we are on our own in making the world a livable place. They would have reacted with shock by the suggestion that they were “born again” and had a unique and personal connection to that Divine Being.

Most of them were deists, including Thomas Jefferson, who constructed his own Bible—omitting the miracles, the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

They believed that reason, dialogue and a carefully devised political process paved the path to good and wise government.

Martin Luther advocated personal piety in every believer. Yet he saw the importance of separating religion from political process, trusting that God was active in both realms. And he recognized it was essential to have people of superior talent and good judgment to lead the state.

As much as anyone else, I want the U.S. to prosper and be at peace. But, along with many others, I fear we are on a trajectory that could undermine our whole way of life. I’m sobered by Niebuhr’s prophecy: “In every civilization its most impressive period seems to precede death by only a moment.”

Fortunately, Niebuhr wasn’t entirely pessimistic. Like a good theologian and good citizen, he saw hope in a changed attitude: “One of the great resources of ... faith for social achievement is the sense of humility which must result from the recognition of our common sinfulness ....

“Reconciliation with even the most evil foe requires forgiveness; and forgiveness is possible only to those who have some recognition of common guilt.”

No, terrorists won’t turn their attention away from us if we admit our mistakes, own up to our limitations and alight from our high horse.

But we would, at the very least, win support from all those who have become disillusioned with the U.S. in the past several years. If they knew we needed them and respected them as equals, we might once again have some strong allies in our conflict with those intent on destroying democratic nations and institutions.

Lutheran historian of religion and commentator Martin Marty, reflecting on the war in Iraq, raised the question: “At what point may, and must, some moral and religious voices be raised to call the continuing venture immoral?”

I think the time is now.

SteveRacer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 15:17:07 (ZULU)

Steve: The Union was in disarray and Lincoln was under pressure to cave just before Gettysburg. If the German Army had been able to break through the U.S. lines and push through to Antwerp, the whole outcome of WWII could hve been in doubt. If Harold hadn't caught that pesky little arrow in the eye at Hastings, well, you get the picture. I think that the problem is not with the religion of the war in Iraq, but the politics. Think, what will be the result of a pullout, now? We have history to guide us in looking at the future. Remember the "domino theory" of Vietnam? Was it correct? Partly. The only reason all of Southeast Asia didn't go Commie is that they ran out of steam, not because the prognosticators were wrong. If we pull out of Iraq, now, just because some limpdick Democrats (notice they are ALWAYS the party of cut and run...look again at the history books)we are going to be setting ourselves up for a nightmare war that will make this one pale in comparison. The Iraqi gov't implodes, as Iran foments the very civil war the weenies are bleating about. Al-Qaeda moves into the vacuum, and now has a base to launch attack after attack against it's perceived enemies around the world. Will w have to go back? Uh, yup. Will we have to lose more kids? Bet on it. Why does anyone think the resurgent Islam is going to leave us alone, just because we leave the Middle East? It wasn't that long ago, they were banging on the gates of Vienna....and they have long memories, and hate to lose.

Don't confuse Christianity with pacifism. Christianity is the total of those who believe in Christ. It's not an "ism". If you can read, you can figure out what God had in mind for us without having to have someone in a frock coat and bad hair interpret it for you. I can believe in a forgiving God, and pick up my rifle and defend my family, country and way of life with a clear conscience. Don't lose faith, just go to the core of it and you'll be ok.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 17:33:52 (ZULU)

Steve,

You could always just decide to be a "rugged individualist" and believe whatever you want to...

There is a certain "freedom" in this approach.

medicjim
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 18:18:21 (ZULU)

Charles said, "I also see no reason for flagging innocent folks."

Me either. Doing so violates the second rule of firearm safety - "Never point the muzzle of your weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy."

I scan with my eyes, with the weapon pointed in a safe direction. You can scan 360 degrees without moving your upper body very much.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 18:28:37 (ZULU)

Allow me to clear up a point. When I say I teach a 540 Degree scan, I mean after shooting a threat(s), we scan a angle left and right, about 45 degrees and then a sideways figure eight in that same parameter to check the second and third story or up the bank,then the gun comes back to the low carry that is straight down at the ground (carbine) or SUL (pistol) then looking dirctly left and right and then behind. I never have them swing the weapons all around the place. When the carbine comes down the safety goes on and when the pistol comes back to the chest, it is decocked if it has one.

Another subject. I respect what we have learned from the competition guys, but we have to be careful. We had a fairly high tier Navy group here last year that just came from a shooting school taught by a famous competitor. They were scanning with thier fingers on the trigger. They were told they would be faster that way. I ended that real quick. I explained we were not shooting steel and cardboard. That our team mates might also be downrange from our position.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 19:01:42 (ZULU)

Steve,

It's not the religion you're mad at, it's the church. I had the same problem with the methodist church specifically, and most others I've attended.

It bugs the hell out of me that they worry too much about light shows, guest singers and other "fellowship" BS, and kinda completely ignore the bible. I miss how church used to be. They'd tell you to help people when you can, and being an asshole meant hell, in the end.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 19:56:17 (ZULU)

Jim R.- do you have an email addy (work?) that I can hit you with? Gotta couple things I'd like a second opinion on. Thanks.

WR Moore
Tuesday, September 4, 2007, at 20:18:26 (ZULU)

Jim:

I though I implied it, but perhaps not. Agree that there are all sorts of techniques from competition that are *not* useful/wise "on the street/in the field".

The corollary to "absort what is useful" is that there are all sorts of things that are not useful. The genius is in making the distinction. But I suspect you already knew that :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 00:10:20 (ZULU)

I enjoy banging something out on this forum. Nobody seems to get their panties in a wad or wanna get into a Pee Pee contest.

I learn a lot just reading here.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 01:03:47 (ZULU)

Jim,

I have no idea, but we both agree he is a great shooter.

Pat II
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 02:32:00 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

What thoroughly impressed me about Jerry Barnhardt is his teaching/training style. Very laid back, professional, with a "try this, if it works for you, put it in your tool box, if not, get rid of it" approach. I've had the opportunity to be exposed to a few trainers, from the very good to the not so good, to the downright obnoxious. You could be the best at whatever discipline and a very experienced operator, but if you can't put the information thru or if you alienate your students, it does no good.

That said, all things being equal, having been down range does give a trainer credability that what he is selling has been used real world.

Pat II
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 02:54:32 (ZULU)

Steve Racer: Surrender?? To al Qaeda and Iran??

F*****g idiot preachers.

(edited)

CDC'
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 04:19:19 (ZULU)

CDC,

Dammit, quit dancin' around and just tell us how you feel! You, sir, are the absolute MASTER of subtlety! ;0)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 06:28:55 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt

Just to be clear, I in no way agree with what Rev. Chilstrom writes in this article. My biggest problem is that this stuff gets run up the flag pole and most in the church either salute it or give it tacit approval, whether they agree or not. Once again, I believe the silent majority would rather sit back and bite their collective tongues rather than evoke controversy by commenting. Happens with regularity in our church, whether it`s the budget, ordaining persons in non-celebit committed same sex relatiionships (as if there are celebit same sex relationships?), or voting on seat cushions for the pews. It all only means something after the deed is done when it`s too late to speak up. One can only stack hypocracy so high before it falls of it`s own weight. I guess I`m as guilty as the rest. I can write letters to the Ed. and start committees and send out newsletters, but in the end, the caterpillar nibbles on. Soon the tree will be eaten, leaf by leaf. I long for the day when someone stands up and throws the bullshit flag, and the rest of the congregation nods in agreement on the "right side" of the issue for a change. I always thought a viewpoint needed some common sense or at least the appearance of rational thought to have enough validity to be debated (or in this case, published). It gets to the point where I start asking myself, 'what am I missing? Could they really be right?' Goes back to the old "if you tell a lie often enough and no one disputes it, it becomes the truth." Well, not for me, Bub!

>>> You could always just decide to be a "rugged individualist" and believe whatever you want to...

There is a certain "freedom" in this approach.<<<

I suppose I do that to a degree. Most people accept the parts they believe and reject what they don`t. Everyone get`s to decide, even in the face of incontrovertable evidence contrary to their opinion. It`s the continual barrage of garbage put forth as words-to-live-by from those in positions of credence that I object to. When the leaders of the church, or the country for that matter, appear to be off the reservation, and the populace follow without question, suspending agreement so they can join the lemmings on the cliff. Well, now we`re back to the Hilter/Bonnhoffer scenario again. Moves from annoying to consuming pretty quickly.

And now I officially sound like the pointy heads I dislike so much. Yikes. K, I`m done. (but not through!)

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 07:17:36 (ZULU)

Jim Reifinger

<<<...then the gun comes back to the low carry that is straight down at the ground (carbine) or SUL (pistol) then looking dirctly left and right and then behind.>>>

Since I am anacronymically challenged, What is "SUL" please? Thanks. SR

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 07:30:22 (ZULU)

Steve: it's not an acronym. Sul is the Portugese word for south. The pistol is in close to the body, with the muzzle pointed down (south). The position is assumed by bringing the pistol into the body in the firing grip, then flattening the hands against the body as shown in one of the pictures you can get to by clicking on my name. In this position, the hands are indexed in a flattened-out firing grip, and the pistol can be fired quickly by pushing the hands away from the body toward the target.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 14:01:29 (ZULU)

Steve wrote "It`s the continual barrage of garbage put forth as words-to-live-by from those in positions of credence that I object to"

By "those in positions of credence", do you mean "leaders" <register sarcasm, it is intended>

We live in the land of "all men created equal"....it's anti-American (IMHO) to follow on issues of belief. What mortal is empowered to tell you what to think? I've never understood how people can stand up and consider themselves 'Good Americans' while they are being led (fed a homogeneous set of trivial, random thoughts) like a herd of sheep.

Among strong folks with diverse backgrounds and perspectives...an issue like the war in Iraq should have some disagrement. The quickest way to detect 'weakness of mind' is to look for a high degree of uniformity in opinion...especially on related trivialities.

medicjim
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 14:03:12 (ZULU)

Finger said the class was taught by a "Famous Competitor"

Jim, that said it all. Things that have bugged me for years is all these IPSC and rifle games guys thinking they are fighters.

They come up with positions that will clear plates faster than anything else but when you ask "Hey hows that work when your team mate is 2" from you" How about when you are clearing 2 or 3 to a room and moving fast? How about when your weapon mounted light dies and you need to use a flash light? Usually you get a "HUH!"

Now for ultimate in stupidity one of these "Masters" taught guys to have freakin springs in mag pouch to assist in getting magaiznes out fast. I mean when they unclipped pouch lid the mag shot up. Tactical my butt!

The bottom line is simple works. Techniques need to work with all systems you run to keep it simple. Your postions need to work with a SMG slung in fornt, back or across chest. You need to be able to make mag changes.

Oh crap there I go. The idea of super shooter teaching fighting tactics just pissed me off again.

I just wish guys would look to men who had bene in fighst for training and not some guy who can clear a plat rack fastest.

Best line in shooting school ever. Stident asks James J. "How do I adjust for a shot with wind blowing 30mph plus from 9 O'Clock at 700 yards?" James response "Move to 3 or 9 O'clock of target and kill it"

Thats a guy who knows what he is talking about.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 16:46:19 (ZULU)

Steve,

Yeah, what Lindy said about Sul. I have no idea why I keep capitalizing the thing like a acronym. Just a Marine Grunt I guess.

I don't do it exactly like the Sul in the pictures. I myself like to use the same position but cover the pistol with the non-shooting hand.

Just my preference. Especially if I use it in a tight stack.

Glad you agree Mike, but tell me, how do you really feel about this.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 17:16:06 (ZULU)

For you AR-15 types....

http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=310274

Duman
Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 19:25:31 (ZULU)

Got a gun-plumber question? That trigger group on some Remington 700s. It has a silver body and hex screws for adjustments instead of slot headed scews. OK then, the sear adjustment screw in the rear. Is it locked down? is it sealed with Loc-tite or something?

Can it even be adjusted. I didn't want to force it. I tried adjusting just the overtravel and trigger weights as normal, but anytime I got below about 5 to 6 pounds it would slam fire whem I threw the bolt handle down hard. I thought maybe I needed to re-adjust the sear, but I could not move the damn thing.

Any suggestions till I get the Timminys I just asked for in the budget?

I am accustomed to the old trigger group and bringing it down to 3.5 to 4 pounds. Can't make these do it.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 21:58:20 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Lumping all the trainers without "street creds" into one group is a mistake. They are not all created equal. I don't know if the the super shooters are teaching fighting. Some are teaching shooting.

It was said before, what is not worthwhile, discard. However, if something teaches you to be a better shooter, I have noticed in some settings, shooting is involed in fighting.

Now if we get into the "keep your finger on the trigger to make you faster" or the " put springs in your mag pouches to make your mags jump" there is no argument, this and things of this nature have no place in the real world.

Pat II
Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 01:46:51 (ZULU)

Undude: IPSC, for me, was a joke! I stopped by a match in NC, and these "gamers" made me feel unwelcome with my box-stock 1911---which was just as well. I was in absolutely no danger of attending any war with those clods. What I really want to know is who is the comedian who named this shit "practical?" That was the funniest thing I've seen in my life: Cut-away holsters, clip-on mags, electro-gizmo sights with 12" comps...yeah. That makes a great hideaway or back-up arm. Very practical indeed.

I couldn't get past the humor to take it seriously...

So now I don a 1870's cav get-up and shoot a pair of single actions, a hammered replichester pumpgun and a '73. With all this retro-uselessness, I am in no danger of thinking anything here is "practical:))" Besides, the CAS clubs locally are old-school shooters---just great damn people to be around. I could care less if it was the Bozo shooting League complete with orange wigs and red shoes (easy now, Lito)---it is the company that drew me in. |Hell, my kids love the matches as much as anyone else in the house!

MedicJim: Great quote, I'm stealing it:))

Joe M
Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 05:09:26 (ZULU)

I was talking to a man who owns a gun store today about pistol shooting. He's an IPSC'er, and he got into some of the gaming scenarios they play with. One was getting carjacked, first target pops up in front of the car, with a gun. He went on about how to get out and shoot it. When I asked him "Why don't you just shoot the asshat through the windshield?", he just stared at me for a moment like I'd sprouted a penis outta my forehead. Next scenario was a downed State trooper by his patrol car, how to run up, drag him to safety, then take the gun outta the troop's holster and engage the bad guy. "Hmmmm", says I. "How many steps do you think you're gonna get, hauling a deadweight wounded man, before the peckerwoods squirt lead into you? Why not just pull your own gun and engage the dumb idiots from COVER and then tend to the trooper?" Again, the sprouting penis from the forehead look. Occam's razor, dude. Wanna play games? Get behind some steel and let another gamer start shooting at you with a real AK. Start figuring out your options from there. The winners will get to breed more smart people.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 05:25:37 (ZULU)

I never meant civy instructors where no good. I meant IPSC and Gammers should keep thier butts on pourch and not attempt to teach searching, shooting on move and fighting. That should be taught by guys who searched, shot while moving and have been in a fight.

I just dont want the Cute T Shirt Gang telling me what gear and how to fight when they have only played a game where speed and accuarcy are everything while tactics and the abilty to work multiple systems keep you alive.

I play on a computer alot but I would not start giving computer building classes because I can turn one on faster than most guys.

Why is it guys think they can clear a plate rack real fast and then are good to go for war?

Best instructor I know is Louis Awerbuck and he is a civy but Louie has seen the poop run down his leg before so he learned by survival. He stopped pooping and snooping but kept learning. He passes this on to many men going into combat.

Jim, I am a simple man who says what he believes. I know too many guys who know you to think you are different. You ever get classes near me and I will drag my old butt to one. PS I Liked the guys you worked with in Hatti.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 06:03:29 (ZULU)

Louis Awerbuck served in the 1st Special Services Battalion in South Africa, so he has prior military experience, and I believe he's been seriously shot at.

I've only read his books, which are filled with good common sense, which is, alas, all too uncommon.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 13:14:41 (ZULU)

I met Louis at Gunsite in the early 80s. The Marine Corps sent me out there to bring back some combat pistol skills for training. Louis was a great no nonsense instructor. We had a blast sneaking up on steel in the arroyos and making stupid long shots with 1911s. Col. Cooper called us the dangerous duo. Damn, I was a young 36 year old First Sergeant back then.

Later I found out during an evening of supper and a few beers, he also had a great sense of humor. His accent was still pretty thick back then. Louis was the real deal.

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. Haiti still leaves me with fond and not so fond memories. Ahhh sitting out by the pool at the Ibo Lele drinking Cuba Libres smoking a Cohiba and watching the tires burning down in the ville. That was a great contract with some super guys.

I will be 59 Saturday. 42 years of doing this stuff in one form or another. Soon time to retire and teach grandsons to hunt ,fish, fear the Lord and no man.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 14:19:43 (ZULU)

"I never meant civy instructors where no good. I meant IPSC and Gamers should keep their butts on porch and not attempt to teach searching, shooting on move, and fighting."

Ode to the plastic gunfighter.

A man appears at the Pearly Gates and Saint Peter greets him.

"Young man, you have died and come before me, and I must judge you to see if you are worthy of entrance, but I see from my book that you have led a sinful and lascivious life and you have never done even one good deed to help anyone else!!. I cannot let you into Heaven".

The young man protests, "I'm not all that bad, I want to go into Heaven!"

Saint Peter said, "Have you EVER done anything to help another person, that might aid your case?"

The young man replies, "Saint Peter... Wait, this might do it.

Once time, I was driving down the road on the way home after finishing the Fatal Force 10 IPSC match at Thunder Gun Farm.

I saw a young lady whose car had stalled on the road. She was surrounded by a vile gang of evil bikers, and one of them was armed with an old break top .38 S&W.

They were taunting her and pawing and tearing at her clothing, and clearly wanted to have their way with her.

I screeched to a stop, and I approached using a dominant timing walk and commanded... "Freeze you dirty slime sucking bunch of faggots... Don't move. Get away from her! Don't make me take action! I’m an expert gunfighter and you'll be very sorry!"

At the same time, I started to clear my Chip McKimber "Custom" 1911 M3000 with Tabasco Red Dot sights and stocked with Black Knight Avenger super-comp grips, and loaded with 300gr Frangible JWSCHPSTs "steel kyller" bullets, from my Malt Gallop Lightning Wear Cutaway Comp VII Holster, and getting into a Weaver stance... "

St. Peter interrupted: "I'm sorry, but there's no record of this good deed in my book... When did this happen?"

"About three minutes ago!"

So much for IPSC :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 15:51:19 (ZULU)

Finger,

That's a new one on me too. Maybe that's one of the new 700 triggers.

'lito,

Now that I have my screen wiped off! Have you seen a Rem. 700 trigger like the one Finger has?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 16:54:14 (ZULU)

Hey there hawgs, just making a drive by. Life has been interesting, to say the least. Committment isn't just a word.

Gooch, glad to see things are going well.

Got to see Joe M a week or two ago. Joe, I'm coming up in a couple weeks, or maybe we can hook up at Rudy's eh?

All - in the limited amount of training I have had, SUL was one of those things that definitely seems useful, especially in close quarters. The philosophy of "use what is useful" certainly seems practical. I was taught that there are a lot of ways to skin a cat....different techniques go in the tool box, use what works, and discard what doesn't. The trainer I worked with is very familiar with JJ and recommends him very highly....some of my training partners have traveled down to take his classes.

Finally, I lucked across an almost new stripped Savage 12 action with accu-trigger. I'm gonna do the "drop in" barrel thing with it. I surfed around Savage Shooters a bit, but the site is cumbersome and I'm about at my limit for remembering membership log-ons, and passwords and things. Who makes the nicest drop in match grade heavy barrel for the Savage?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 17:04:04 (ZULU)

Lindy, have not talked with Louis in awhile but he used to stay with me when he taught out here. I was one to get him POST Credentials in California. I had his complete CV/Resume. I did not include any of it because he keeps his past to himself. It was damm impresssive, but he has kept up with changing equipment and techniques. I think thats what makes him so special as an instructor.

Finger, never got to do anything with your buds. They kept offering me CONUS stuff but I have had enough working CONUS. Some cop from your time in Hatti soured one of the big guys on cops OCONUS work. They did steer me to some fun jobs.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 17:15:33 (ZULU)

Finger...

Sounds like you got one of the new triggers. They started shipping them in the spring of '06.

They are good triggers - better than the Timney.

Pull weight is the screw in the front, near the bottom of the housing (furthest from the barrel).

I brought mine to about 20 to 24 oz, and they are nice.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 17:22:50 (ZULU)

OK 'lito Thanks Can you answer me this? The screw (hex head) in the bacl for sear engagmment is inside where the body is open (unlike the old trigger). How did you break it loose? Did you heat the hex wrench or what. It seems like it is locked in place. I figured I needed to reset the sear engagement so it wouldn't slam fire when I dropped the weight down. The two hex head screws in the front (overtravel and trigger weight) seem to work fine.

Is there something I am missing or forgetting? I have eight rifles and four came with this trigger. They are the only ones kicking my butt.

Thanks,

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 17:52:43 (ZULU)

Finger...

They are not locked in place (they just look like that).

Rem has always put a coating of some glue like stuff over the screws.

I took a 1/16" hex wrench and just pushed it in the hole, and it broke the glue seals. The screw turns easily. Much better than the old blade screws.

The new triggers look funny at first, but they are really much better than the old ones.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 18:12:44 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito I will give it a try.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 18:32:09 (ZULU)

What can be learned from gamers. Shooting skills. They know how to get rounds on the target quickly and for the most part accurately. What can not be learned is Tactics. And how to use your mind to solve a difficult situation understress.

I must say Rob Leatham is a Awsome shooter and think he could get through a ruff situation. He mostly shoots iron sighted pistols and comes in at the top at the Bianchi Cup each year. He has been consistantly in the top 5 in recent years.

Dirty Steve......

I been welding and fencing and trying to stay dry with all this global warming hitting south Texas. ;)

DirtySteve
Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 20:29:10 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

When ya gonna come down for the day with Chuck. I told him you were welcome anytime.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 20:46:47 (ZULU)

Mike,

At the end when things got sticky with the rebels and such, we had a handful of cops quit on us and go home. I guess all of a sudden the money didn't look so good compared to the threat. Left us shorthanded when things were going sour for the boss. We did ok though. We got him out before the rebels or his own people knew what happened. Yeah I know, he said we kidnapped him and took him to Africa. He can say what ever he wants. The check always hit the bank on time. Including the last month.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 21:23:02 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

That was a pretty good thread. All I had to do was type "Jerry Barnhardt".

Pat II
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 00:24:33 (ZULU)

Charles,

I've often thought it'd be interesting to see how the IDPA guys would shoot if you shot training rounds or airsoft at them while they went through a course. If nothing else, it'd be funny as hell to watch!

On single actions:

The other night, some friends and I were farting around, and decided to compete "Vato style". We were shooting Ruger Vaqueros ...... sideways! It was a hoot! We were actually shooting pretty good groups, too. (we didn't do the above the head, stabbing the gun at the target thing, though)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 02:52:18 (ZULU)

Travis,

Have you tried the "Danny DeVito, over the shoulder, 'Romancing the Stone'" technique?

On another note, methinks some folks in the Air Force are in some hot goo. Transporting nuke tipped cruise missiles on a long range bomber, with no one knowing? "Air Force officials said the mistake was a serious breach of rules and that an investigation began immediately." Geeeeeezzzzzz.......

Pictures of Slim Pickins, flying the B-52, pop into my head.

Duman
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:20:28 (ZULU)

Duman,

You made my night. I just ordered the movie '1941'....one of the funniest of all times. Slim being ordered to poop at gun point and then acting out the 'event'...now that's class entertainment. You just can't get that kind of quality acting anymore.....I have to go to work to see behavior that rediculous these days and I've had to cut way back on the laughing in people's faces now that I work for them.

medicjim
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:52:08 (ZULU)

There actually is one good reason I can think of to shoot a pistol sideways - if you are behind a ballistic shield, and need to hold it that way in front of the shield to line up the sights.

You can actually shoot pretty well that way. I've been known to shoot that way deliberately against students, who think it gives them an advantage. It would, if I hadn't done that before...

We'll also shoot holding the pistol using only one finger on the grip, while standing on one foot, to show them that they don't have to have a death grip on the pistol, nor a solid stance, to shoot well, IF they can press the trigger straight to the rear without disturbing the sights.

We have some IPSC-silhouette-size steel, too, and with a little practice, you can hit them quite reliably with a pistol at 100 yards. Lots of ways to have fun with a handgun, which can also win you some beer bets.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:57:48 (ZULU)

Jim....get you a sharp-pointed little knife, or a needle or sumpin' and dig the rubber cement outta the little hex-head screws. The front on controls pull weight. Got mine from about 50 lbs down to just at 4 this afternoon.

I been trying to get Steve the Hygenically Challenged One to come down, but since he done got all them ani-mules, he done got all ree-sponsabul and stuff. Maybe next weekend. We can make him a role-player. With that red satin dress and the pumps, he'll turn every head in the joint. And most stomachs....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 05:34:33 (ZULU)

Pistol Country:

It would be interesting to see what would evolve out of a change in how "combat" pistol matches are scored. Traditional scoring uses elapsed time from a start signal to last shot.

We're getting close to the point where the video/computer technology would make a new scoring system possible: Target exposure time.

Course of fire would be laid out so that competitor exposure would be monitored from the point of view of the hostile targets to be engaged. Clock runs when competitor is exposed to hostile targets,

pauses when competitor is not exposed. Clock stops with last shot fired. Total exposure time would be one of the components of how the score is calculated. One of the technical challenges would be to pause exposure clock in a zone where all the hostile targets have been "solved". (Which implies a means of determining successful resolution of all hostile targets in a zone).

This would create a very strong incentive to use cover and minimize exposure to hostile targets.

The obvious question is - would the effort and ongoing cost needed to create such a system produce enough improvement in tactical technique to warrant the undertaking?

Comments invited...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 12:42:39 (ZULU)

[quote]The obvious question is - would the effort and ongoing cost needed to create such a system produce enough improvement in tactical technique to warrant the undertaking?[/quote]

The cost/benefit ratio seems pretty high, although I'd love to shoot on a range instrumented like that.

If you're interested in training effective tactical shooters rather than gamers, the best training method is force-on-force training using Simunitions, Airsoft, paintball, or something similar.

Targets which shoot back quickly teach the lesson about exposure time - especially if the hits hurt.

That's not the only benefit of such training - it also exposes people who are reluctant to shoot no matter what the threat, and conditions people to stay in the fight if hit. Good stuff.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territory of Mexico, Texas, N/A - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 14:34:56 (ZULU)

Right on Lindy, it is amazing what folks do under any stress at all, even with simulation training. I have seen them run away. I have seen them freeze and do nothing. I have seen them look at the ground and fire all their rounds into the ground.

We do a bunch of FX and airsoft here. The SEALs use it all the time. They each come with their weapons and FX conversion kits for each man. Some of our contracts really like the Force on Force senairio training after the firearms bloc. It shows them what works and what don't.

It drives home the moving to and using cover concept better then anything. If you lock into your perfect shooting stance, you will die there with glory.

Even up on the driving venue, when we get to ambush senairios, we hit the sides of the students cars hard with big ol paint balls for the sound effect. Add to it a couple IED simulaters and pucker factor goes up fast.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Friday, September 7, 2007, at 18:31:45 (ZULU)

Some folks sure have jobs that sound more enjoyable than mine...

Lucky (read "smart") bastards!

medicjim
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 19:07:14 (ZULU)

Jim,

I am going to make it one day. With the wife in El Paso and all the horses and dogs make it tough to schedule time to do things.

However I shall make it before I retire.. Haha...

DirtySteve....

dirtysteve
Friday, September 7, 2007, at 20:26:20 (ZULU)

Gents,

Any you guys playing with the SAUM case for the 7mm's or doing the "defacto" WSM... or neck jerkin' the .30 or .270 cases?

Powder is H4831sc and I'm probably shockin 'em with 210m's.

I don't get stupid with brass cause I can't shoot fer nuthin, but would there be any advantage to the shorter SAUM hull?

Thankee.

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 02:07:26 (ZULU)

Geoff M;

Savage re-bareling is easy. I have done it quite a few times and if I can do it, anybody can. The best ready to install barrel for the money is Shilen. You can also get a Lother-Walther through Ferret50 or something like that. If you want a higher end barrel, you can get any of the barrel companies to make a barrel and then you will have a gunsmith chamber and thread for you (most charge around $150- if they have that reamer), installation is the same. You can get the Shilen pre-fit barrels from Midway.

The only thing to be aware of is that some of the Savage rifles use a large barrel shank (1.125" dia) and the rest use the standard shank (1.055" dia). The RUM, WSM, and new target/varmint actions will be large shank.

To do the job, you will need a bench vise with pipe jaws and something to wrap the barrel in, barrel nut wrench, action wrench (Rem 700 fits), dead blow hammer, thread lube, and headspace gauges or full length sized case. If you don't want to buy it all, let me know. I'm sure we can work out a way to let you borrow mine.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 03:02:35 (ZULU)

Jody, I might take you up on that. I talked to Joe M today....and we had the .308 vs. .260 discussion. Of course, all my supplies are in .308....but, I came up with an answer....do both!

I'm going to sit on the project for a little while, too many irons in the fire at the moment. But if Shilen is tops, I'll look at them closely when the time comes. Thanks for the info!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 04:15:56 (ZULU)

Ya know; Sul, weaver, quick draw, all that gets you "ready to shoot" is merely a starting point for action--the basics of a physical motion. The "leans" under intrument flight rules accomplishes just as much. But deadly force actions and your basic firearms' safety both use the exact same mechanism: the grey glob between ears. If you haven't thought about a very few shoot/ and myriad of no shoot criteria long and hard---you probably subscribe to fast is better. Fast is shit if you pop your kid. Or a friendly. Or your best buddy. What is it you expect to see in five, ten, or thirty minutes? Next 12 hours? If those are your thoughts with loaded guns on your person, you are just scratching the surface. It is only possible to swag the expected---what exacly do you expect to see to your front that you cannot shoot? That leaves the unexpected. And, if you aare already comparing the unexpected things to the "expected"--you are THINKING. And that puts you in the right frame of mind for deadly force encounters.

Practical shooters do not spend much time thinking about what not to shoot. It is "direction, distance, target" wihout fail.

Here's a scenario to test people. Take a shooter from a brightly lit room at night into a dark shoot house. Tell him there is an adversary in said house aiming to kill him. Orient him into room. Give him a three count to the engagement. Then use an unexpected flashbang and strobes to initiate the shoot/ no shoot (no warning). Present him with ONLY one target---a full size picture of his wife in a pink bathrobe.

Let me know how many don't collect the insurance policies.

Being able to hit everything fast is really cool. Right up until the first funeral.

I think the discipline to think ahead of the sear breaking is the mark of a true professional.

I dunno about the best ways to train this. But I once played a game with a dummie that was "friendly." The BGs were e-type half rounds, and maybe two or three dummies. Seems easy enough---a 3-D good guys and 2-D baddies. But the game was to set up the rescue force to get them to engage the friendly hostage. Dress him is BG uniforms, have him holding a BG in a nelson with an AK in his hands--anything to make that first instinct shot WRONG.

In just a few weeks, it got hard to trip up the entry guys. On film, we were fast as hell. In the rooms with live ammo---it was slow as shit. That really drove home that old saw: Slow is smooth...smooth is fast. If you have a short list of things to rule out before breaking the trigger, and an even shorter list of things that makes you pull that trigger---it "thinks" faster than you would believe. At that moment, the only opinion on how slow you are that counts is the guy you just shot. If you take all week to pop him in your mind, he's still gonna think "oh damn...he's fast..." when you actually do.

It has been alluded to here: There is nothing like a stack of four men doing an entry to put the "practical" in practical shooting.

Edited to add: IIRC, I was the last guy to stop killing the good guy in the example; I was also the youngest guy in the mix by some 4 years. Fast reflexescombined with immaturity (brash youth) are a distinct disadvantage in stress shooting fun and games.

Joe M
Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 05:00:40 (ZULU)

The Brits are starting to question their gun bans...click

Joe M
Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 17:15:01 (ZULU)

Pistol country..........

Just signed up at a new indoor pistol range. Annual membership for me and Doughlady included a discounted CCW class. Unfrigginfortunately Doughlady is a lefty. I doubt she's gonna want to shoot my properly oriented right handed stuff. Do you lefties out there have a suggestion or 2 for some southpaw pistols for her to try out?

Rifle stuff........

Just too damn hot to shoot. I hate popping primers. I've shot 2 matches in this crap and been to the range a couple of times only to damn near have heat stroke. Nuff said. I know, bitch, bitch, bitch.

Now have donor actions (aquired at horendously low costs) for a 300 short mag and a 7 short mag F-Open riffles. Another set of decisions to make.

My recently aquired DCM 40x 22lr target guns with Redfield International sights are due to arrive any day. On pins and needles hoping I didn't screw up this investment. Lito, I hope this works out down here contrary to what is happening in your end of the country with school shooting teams closing down.

Poppa Fred.......

Guess I need to sign up for Thompson's campaign. Looks like he will be the lessor of the evils next year.

Computer crap......

I went to a tomato disease site and when it came up it showed I was from the city I live in. How the hell does a web site know that?

Back to the dried up garden.....Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 21:02:18 (ZULU)

Hey Bolt my Tarheel state brother, The kids have been keeping me informed. NC has been about as hot as South Texas. It rained like easteren NC here in Texas this year. My first two years here, it was drier then a popcorn fart.

Hey, lefty pistols... Ya know most of the lefties in the pistol world didn't know they had a problem til all the ambi gizmos came out for them. I was thinking (I know) look at the Glocks. I'm thinking like a G19. My wife when she had her Carpul Tunnel (sp?) surgery on her right hand found the 19 easy to operate with her left hand alone. (rest of this story below at the end)

No trash on a Glock except a trigger and slide stop lever, which is easy for most lefties to lock to the rear. Left handers for years have been punching out mags with their trigger finger.

Just a thought, and you might save a few bucks if you already have a Glock or other pistols on hand. Maybe there are some SouthPaw member here with better ideas.

(rest of the above story)

Momma had her surgery and I had to go out of town a few days. She said, "Are you gonna leave me the 19?" I said ok but have you ever shot left handed only and can you work the pistol one-handed? She said, "NO, but your gonna teach me before you go." It went well. At the end of the day she could reload, clear stopages, shoot left handed at across the room distances while moving to cover. All this while yelling out to the bad guy, "Please leave my home, you poor unfortunate person!" Well, it was something kinda like that. I was proud of her.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 22:41:42 (ZULU)

I have Glocks, and sometimes shoot matches left-handed with them. My only beef is that the tip of my trigger finger gets sore from punching that magazine release a bunch of times. I don't use the slide lock to release the slide when it's locked back - I grip-and-rip the slide itself - so that's not an issue.

If I were going to shoot left-handed very much, I'd take a hard look at the Springfield XD, which has a true ambidexterous magazine release. There are a couple of other pistols which have reversible magazine releases, but I really prefer true ambidexterous. I have a Norgon ambidexterous mag release on my AR.

John Farnam doesn't like them, because of the potential for something bumping the outside of the pistol when it's holstered, releasing the magazine. He has a point, but I think that's a pretty low probability event, and I like being able to use a weapon the same from either side.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 22:59:26 (ZULU)

Lindy, did you see or handle the Glock after-market enlarged slide stop lever and mag button yet? One of the guys I know who works at Glock told me about them, but I have not yet seen or fondeled them. I slingshot the slide too and don't really need the new slide stop, but I know what you mean about the mag release. Takes some getting used to after shooting some of the other pistols for a bit.

Hope you and yours are fine.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 23:15:56 (ZULU)

Jim: as I mentioned, I don't much care about slide-stop levers. For a long time, the Glock enlarged mag releases weren't legal for IDPA competition unless factory installed. I think the rules have changed a bit about that, but I haven't played with them. I can work the regular ones fine - I just don't like the pain of left-handed operation. I'll check the rules.

We're fine. We spent the summer in the mountains of Colorado, so we missed the deluge. Got back a week ago, and have been cutting grass, poisoning fire ants in the yard, trimming mesquites, and killing snakes, including a small coral snake in a flower bed yesterday. There are still places on the range so wet I can't go in them except in the Polaris 6X6.

This is hard country. I have a lot of respect for the people who pioneered here - we're right next door to the King ranch. I'll be glad when we get a couple of cold fronts to dry things out - the heat index here yesterday afternoon was 115 degress - but I'm not holding my breath.

Hope y'all survived the rain OK.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 23:30:38 (ZULU)

Glocks for lefties:

One of my sinister friends was happily shooting a G19. He was satisfied with the factory slide stop/release.

I've shoot a G17 in IPSC matches for around 15 years, which includes shooting strong-hand disabled (I'm right-handed). Not the same as being a lefty, but it gives me a small taste of the experience.

The Glock factory extended mag release is available cheap too. I customize them to be slightly shorter, so they're in-between the regular and extended length. Easy to do since they are plastic. Checkering file puts grooves back on. Buy 2 or three, so if you flub your first modification attempt you don't have to wait.

This supplier has treated me well in the past, there are others:

http://www.glockmeister.com/

http://glockmeister.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/10_17/products_id/279

$US3.00 for mag catch

"G287 is stock for All 9/40/357 calibers

G1981 is stock for All 10mm/.45 but Extended for all 9mm/.40 cal/.357 cal models. If you want the Extended one like the G34 and G35, please order for the G20,21, 39,30, or 34, 35"

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 23:44:51 (ZULU)

(US) Politics Country:

From Friday Michael Bane blog:

http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/

"The good news is, of course, is that FRED THOMPSON IS FINALLY RUNNING FOR PREZ! What a surprise...a Republican who actually believes in the Second Amendment! A Republican who doesn't consider the gun culture — that would be us — as either the loony uncle in the closet or, at best, an afterthought. I tried watching the Republican "debates," but with the exception of Ron Paul it looked like a bunch of dwarves in search of a Snow White. I wouldn't willingly choose one of those guys to change the oil in my car."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 8, 2007, at 23:52:02 (ZULU)

Rod- loooong time ago I designed an IPSC match where the time was exposure to the target. If the RO stands in the rights spots (at least the way I set it up) they could time the exposure with a stopwatch. I did say this was long ago, right? The look on some of the faces were classic when they asked their times-despite the fact that the time system explanation was repeated several times, and several challenged it. Some got upset when I explained the tasking on the stages but didn't let them see where the targets were first.

I had the most fun with one stage that was an entry into multiple rooms. When they entered the first room (make that dramatic entry!), there was a target with a home-made (1X4 and 2 pieces of broomsticks) sawed off about 4 feet away. Only one guy survived this stage, several fell down jumping backward trying to escape.

WR Moore
Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 05:27:43 (ZULU)

For you John Farnam fans:

http://www.sofmag.com/news/authorresults.html?query=John%20Farnam

or click my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 11:46:14 (ZULU)

What do you guys use to remove carbon from the barrel just ahead of the chamber? That 243 i bought a couple of weeks ago is carboned up so bad it looks like your looking up a stove pipe. KG Industries has a carbon remover, but don't know anything about them.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 12:08:18 (ZULU)

re: IPSC stages (WR Moore).

The surprise IPSC stages are fun and educational, but are problematic in the context of a competition. (Can't re-shoot if range equipment failure, isolating competitors to avoid information leaks, etc). Problematic if the RO(s) also wanted to shoot the surprise stages.

You certinly have the right attitude on a better simulation of a gunfight!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 12:40:47 (ZULU)

What gets printed in SOF is one of Farnam's Quips and Quotes, all of which may be found here:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html

or just click on my name.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 12:52:40 (ZULU)

>" What do you guys use to remove carbon from the barrel just ahead of the chamber?"<

Brass brushes, good powder solvent, and elbow grease.

The "carbon" is actually a mix of garbage compounds. Mostly primer residue, powder ash, and a tiny bit of carbon.

Carbon is NOT soluble in anything.

But powder solvents do soften the deposits. They mostly work on the powder ash, which is the binder that keeps the whole thing together.

Once softened, the brush removes them... a little at a time.

There once was no talk of "carbon" in the barrel... because it was not allowed to build up.

But cleaning methods have changed over the last 10-15 years, and now, these black, grungy deposits are getting to be a real problem.

The onset of magical brass (only) removers, and foam wipes have made these deposits become an increasing problem.

I just spent some time cleaning a BR grade barrel to the point where there is NO residue and NO copper in it.

After a long soak in bore cleaner/copper remover, the patches come out dead white.

It was an effort.

Off to the sand box... I'm restocking an egg and crow riffle, and the 'poxie glass set over night.

Now, five Hail Mary's that the release agent worked, and pull the sucka apart ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 12:57:13 (ZULU)

re: carbon removal:

I use JB Bore Cleaner or Rem Clean and Kroil (penetrating oil). Both are very mild abrasives. They're great for dealing with carbon and moly residues that are not very easy to address with solvents.

Available from Brownells and Sinclair International.

worn or slightly smaller bore brush wrapped with a patch as usage is the normal pattern.

Custom barrel makers are mixed in their advice on using such products.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 13:10:55 (ZULU)

Say guys,Look what Petes up to !

http://www.roedale-psg.de/GB/index.htm

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 15:13:51 (ZULU)

>"Custom barrel makers are mixed in their advice on using such products."<

Most will not honor their warrentee if abrasoves are used.

To test an "abrasive" take a blob on a patch and rub it HARD on the underside of the barrel for a minute or so, just in front of the receiver lug... and then wipe it off.

If there are scratches on the steel... DON'T put it your barrel.

>'I use JB Bore Cleaner or Rem Clean and Kroil (penetrating oil)."<

I use Hoppe's #9, cuz it works, and it smells good too ;)))

I buy it by the gallon drum. When things are slow, I add it to Rum for a little "spice" ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 16:38:17 (ZULU)

Lito' Is that carbon coming from the Polyester powder manufacturers

are adding to the mix?

Alliant lists it as an ingredient on the container.

Is that the best use they found for those old cheap suits ??

Yikes !!

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 22:41:53 (ZULU)

re: locating by IP

Bolt asked: " I went to a tomato disease site and when it came up it showed I was from the city I live in. How the hell does a web site know that?"

Here is a web page to lookup your physical address by IP.

http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm?GetLocation

Simplified explaination of how it works:

http://www.analysespider.com/ip2location/ip_location_finder.html

Geolocation is a way of determining the real-time geographical location of an Internet-connected computer based on the IP address supplied by the Internet service provider. Geolocation involves in mapping IP address to the country, region , city , ISP.

2. How accurate is Geolocation?

The database has over 98% of accuracy in country and ISP level, 75% in region level and 63% in city level

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 9, 2007, at 23:27:57 (ZULU)

***********SPEW ALERT********SPEW ALERT***********

THE BEST COMEBACK LINE EVER!

Marine Corps General Reinwald was interviewed on

the radio the other day and you'll love his reply to

the lady who interviewed him concerning guns and

children.

Regardless of how you feel about gun laws you

gotta love this!!!! This is one of the best comeback

lines of all time.

It is a portion of National Public Radio (NPR)

interview between a female broadcaster and US Marine

Corps General Reinwald, who was about to sponsor a Boy

Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what

things are you going to teach these young boys when

they visit your base?

GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them

climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit

irresponsible, isn't it?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see why, they'll be

properly supervised on the rifle range.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is

a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see how. We will be

teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even

touch a firearm.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to

become violent killers.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, Ma'am, you're equipped

to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?

The radio went silent and the interview ended.

You gotta love the Marines!

Can I get a Hoorah?

Edited to add: I just found out, via SNOPES.com that the above, while entertaining, is untrue. It should be, though!

Here's the Link to the snopes deal: http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.asp

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Monday, September 10, 2007, at 02:05:56 (ZULU)

Travis:

Interview is Internet legend. (Too bad).

http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.asp

Snopes is your friend.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, September 10, 2007, at 02:16:07 (ZULU)

On Carbon Fouling:

Slip 2000 Carbon Killer gets all that crud outta the barrel.

http://www.slip2000.com/carbonkiller.html

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, September 10, 2007, at 05:10:32 (ZULU)

CARBON DEPOSITS AND ELBOW GREASE.

You sure hit that nail on the head. Thanks for the input.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, September 10, 2007, at 10:14:51 (ZULU)

9/11 We'll never forget !

God rest their souls.

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 12:14:55 (ZULU)

Last night, I watched most of Petraeus' testimony. He's really a smooth, intelligent, no-nonsense, political guy. He layed out the situation, an action plan, and tried to calibrate expectations. Then there was the obligitory supplication to the politicos. The kind of guy who can tell someone they're a jerk, and leave them smiling.

He openly spoke of Iran's involvement in the uprisings. I'm not convinced we're going to be able to avoid conflict with Iran. Iran's passive-aggressive behavior is wearing thin.

Duman
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 13:55:29 (ZULU)

Those of you who are coming to Idaho for the fall hunt should check the hunting site. It is getting close.

Markwell: If you are out there, contact me. We can meet in Victor. I'll buy you a burger and a beer and we can go look at some country.

CDC'
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 19:08:36 (ZULU)

This is entertaining, a little horseplay with tanks.

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/2007826221433.aspx

Here's a terrorist taking himself:

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/200782122250.aspx

Duman
Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 21:20:45 (ZULU)

Dangerous Assault Tools:

First we had to worry about guns, then rocks, now it's tools. Will the world ever be safe?

http://www.allmax.com/MILT/

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, September 11, 2007, at 23:11:31 (ZULU)

I've agreed to participate in a paintball game. Sooo......I found a feller needing some money to mend fences with his wifey for past transgressions and over spending his hobby accounts. He had a Tippman A5 with a wheelbarrow full of goodies for a smidgen of monetary reimbursement. I don't need another hobby but this sounds kinda interesting. Now I have to learn the ins and outs of the game and how to field strip the weaponry. I also have read that there are paint grenades and all sorts of other stuff to color the enemy with.

Butner match this weekend. Anybody intersted?

Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 02:18:11 (ZULU)

Gentlemen, may we for a moment venture into the land of .....

Reloading Country?

I have a friend who`s in search of a "spare" powder measure for his brand new Hornady Lok`N Load progressive. He called Hornady looking for said measure, which they apparently show on their site, and was politely informed that he cannot get one unless he buys another complete Lok`N Load set up. Needless to say, He wishes he`d have gone with another brand at this point.

Do any of you have any input on this? I can`t believe they wouldn`t sell him one but he says not. Thanks for any help.

BTW, my press is a Lovely baby blue color and have had very few complaints about it over the years (except for the powder measure you have to babysit). I tried to tell him, but.....

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 06:44:06 (ZULU)

Steve...

I don't know where your friend got that crap, but it's pure crap.

Tell him to go to:

http://www.midwayusa.com/

Then type "hornady powder measure" in the search box, and he'll have a full page of Hornady measures.

All he has to do is order them.

Some guys are so verbally handicapped, that they can't order pussy in a whore house ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 11:34:02 (ZULU)

Jody, That's too funny! I had to bookmark that page.

Lito: Shakespeare's got nothin' on you! LMAO!

Duman
Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 14:42:45 (ZULU)

< I use Hoppe's #9, cuz it works, and it smells good too ;))) >

Mmmmm, Hoppes #9, I was just cleaning my .45 with that exact same concoction this morning.

S/F

Kush

Kush
Havelock, NC, - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 18:25:23 (ZULU)

Hi Kush,

It's been quite a spell since your last post. Welcome back. Are you still a phrogman?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 12, 2007, at 18:43:40 (ZULU)

Prayers out for Brian Sain and all the others over there on the Gulf coast. Sounds like a ton of rain comming their way.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 00:49:38 (ZULU)

Doc,

Thanks, just got back from a 4 year strech overseas to include 2 trips to the sand box. It's good to be back, I can't wait to get my TMO to get all my shootin' irons out of storage.

Still flying the Phrog, will be doing SAR out of Cherry Point NC for at least the next few years.

Take it easy

S/F

Kush

Kush
Havelock, NC, - Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 02:59:44 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Just finished "The 47th Samurai" by Stephen Hunter. It's a Bob Lee Swagger tale without his usual sniper stuff. Can you say samurai sword? As always, with Stephen Hunter novels, it's a "good read".

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The crisp Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, September 13, 2007, at 05:28:10 (ZULU)

Guys,

Got this from a forwarded e-mail. Enjoy.

Subject: Marines & Tampons

MARINES AND TAMPONS (A GREAT STORY)

Tampons to the rescue in Iraq!! Don't worry, it's a good story, and worth reading. It's even humorous in parts. It's from the mother of a Marine in Iraq.

My son told me how wonderful the care packages we had sent them were and wanted me to tell everyone thank you. He said that one guy we'll call Marine X, got a girl care package and everyone was giving him a hard time. My son said, "Marine X got some really nice smelling lotion and everyone really likes it, so every time he goes to sleep they steal it from him." I told my son I was really sorry about the mistake, and if he wanted I would send Marine X another package. He told me not to worry about Marine X because every time I send something to him, Marine X thinks it's for him too.

He said when my husband and I sent the last care package, Marine X came over to his cot picked up the box, started fishing through it, and said, "What'd we get this time?"

My son said they had the most fun with Marine X's package. He said he wasn't sure who we were sending the pack to, but the panties were size 20, and he said one of the guys got on top of the Humvee and jumped off with the panties over his head and yelled, "Look at me, I'm an Airborne Ranger!!!!" One of the guys attached the panties to an antenna and it blew in the wind like a windsock. He said it entertained them for quite awhile. Then of course.......they had those tampons.

When he brought this up, my imagination just went running, but he continued. My son said they had to go on a mission and Marine X wanted the Chap-Stick and lotion for the trip. He grabbed a bunch of the items from his care package and got in the Humvee. As luck would have it he grabbed the tampons too, and my son said everyone was teasing him about "not forgetting his feminine hygiene products."

He said things went well for a while, then the convoy was ambushed and a Marine was shot. He said the wound was pretty clean, but it was deep. He said they were administering first aid but couldn't get the bleeding to slow down, and someone said, "Hey! Use Marine X's tampons!" My son said they put the tampon in the wound. At this point my son profoundly told Me, "Mom, did you know that tampons expand?" ("Well....yeah!")

They successfully slowed the bleeding until the guy got better medical attention. When they went to check on him later The surgeon told them, "You guys saved his life. If you hadn't stopped that bleeding he would have bled to death." My Son said, "Mom, the tampons sent by the Marine Moms by mistake saved a Marine's life."

At this point I asked him, "Well, what did you do with the rest of the tampons?"

He said, "Oh, we divided them up and we all have them in our flak jackets, and I kept two for our first aid kit."

I am absolutely amazed by the ingenuity of our Marines. I can't believe that something that started out as a mistake then turned into a joke, ended up saving someone's life. My sister said she doesn't believe in mistakes. She believes God had a plan all along. She believes that "female care package" was sent to Marine X to save our Marine.

Either way, our efforts have boosted the morale of many Marines, provided much needed items for our troops, AND saved the life of a Marine! God bless every one of you for your efforts and hard work, and God bless our Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force and all our military service personnel.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, September 14, 2007, at 05:57:39 (ZULU)

Guys,

We lost SPC-4 Marvin L. Morgan (my grandad) at about 1 A.M. yesterday morning.

If any of you knew him at Ft. Leonard Wood or Ft. Lewis in the 50's or 60's, I'd sure like to hear from you.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 05:36:11 (ZULU)

Travis,

My condolences on your loss. Grandparents are tough to lose. Mine all live on only in my heart. Prayers incoming.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 06:38:57 (ZULU)

Steve,

Thanks. He raised me, and I'll always miss him. He was a tough old bastard, and a friend to anyone that needed one.

I picked up my guns that were on loan to him, and notice the front sight on my '94 was buggered. According to Winchester, it was made in '71 or '72, as I recall. Which are the best sights for it? I hate apertures, ghost rings, and fiber optics. Also, what is the correct front sight height for this gun? The serial number is 3494XXX.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 06:53:45 (ZULU)

Check out this article. I hate that a brother officer was shot, but where does this ATF agent get his info on how guns are bought and sold in the US?

AKs by mail for under $200 yeah right Wanna bet it was a semi-auto?

PDs that are under armed.....adminstration is the problem.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SOU_ASSAULT_WEAPONS_FLOL-?SITE=FLDAY&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-09-14-22-08-25

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 17:06:44 (ZULU)

Jim:

(Politics Country)

Assault weapon - anti-gunner "code phrase" for cosmetically challenged self-loading long gun. Most examples are semi-auto.

The $200 quoted price might be for an SKS. J&G Sales has used units listed for $150.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/yugoslavian-sks-59-66-good-condition-/products_id/373

I think the anti-gunners consider the SKS an "assault weapon" too. They love to play bait and switch in those attack articles. No lawful mail-order for guns to non-FFL's in the US, don't know where they dreamed that up. (Unless they are talking about unlawful sales).

The writer seems to be trying to manufacture support for a revival of the so-called (federal) Assault Weapon Ban.

Guess he didn't get the memo that even the anti-gun politicians are avoiding campaigning on anti-gun measures since it loses them large numbers of votes.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 19:05:41 (ZULU)

An interesting comparison of M-16 and AK 47.

You can see the barrel on the AK flexing when firing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&NR=1

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, September 15, 2007, at 23:55:57 (ZULU)

Thanks Jim ...

Well, survived another direct hit from a hurricane.

This is getting old.

Humberto was supposed to be a 40 mph tropical storm ... my ass.

Woke up to the fastest evolving Cat 1 in history (hours) and it hit P.A. Texas square in the nose, just like RITA.

Nothing left at my place to blow down after RITA though.

Lots of roofs, trees gone ... some looting.

Power off four days ... what fun.

Got a new OPS INC. 15th Model can for the AR though so ...

Life is good.

OUT

brian k. sain
Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 02:07:41 (ZULU)

Travis,

Sorry to hear about your Grandfather.Hope that was #3 for a long time.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 05:31:34 (ZULU)

Brian,

I am just thankful you and yours are ok. Remember, I have a home back in coastal NC. Part of the price we pay to live in paradise. ;)

I'm bummed out this morning. One of the kids from my AWANAS JV group at church was killed yesterday. He and his twin brother took a revolver out back on the ranch and there was an accident. I don't have the whole story yet. I will have to ask the county Ranger that lives down the road when I see him. Damn.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 13:16:15 (ZULU)

FN Rifles

I need some info about them. It's the Hunting rifle in 308 with a Weaver 3x. I'am not fimiliar with these guns. The guy wants 250.00 for it.

Gary Kaney
NW, ILL, - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 15:02:16 (ZULU)

Sorry to hear about the hit, Brian - you've had more than your share. I had my eye on that one from the beginning. And, worse, the forecast discussion for here includes the possibility of a system firing up in the Caribbean this week, and moving into the Gulf of Mexico. Keep your eyes peeled, and your gas tank full.

We have a precision rifle class here this coming week, and it may get...shorter. Or wetter. Or both.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 18:40:56 (ZULU)

Travis,

My condolences on the loss of your Grandfather. If I'm reading my catalog correctly the Winchester part number for that 94 front sight is 103F and it's .360 high.

Gary,

I'm no expert on FN rifles; but for $250 I'll take it. The latest Blue Book value with only 60% finish remaining is $295 for the F.N. Mauser Sporter Deluxe and $375 for the F.N. Supreme. According to a friend of mine there are three things to consider in putting a value on a gun. 1. How bad do you want it? 2. How bad do you want it? And finally for number 3. How bad do you want it? That's what it's worth. ;o)

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 19:24:30 (ZULU)

I've never known the ATF to bother with facts. Any agency, and it's agents, that makes a living infringing the un-infringable (i.e. the Constitution)is inherently suspect and IMHO un-American. But, like the man said, you don't gotta like it, you just gotta do it.

Hey, Finger.....just exactly what temperature does licorice melt at, anyway?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas , USA - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 00:30:51 (ZULU)

Jim ... been to my share of those.

One was really bad. OLD man (95 plus) had a .357 revolver in a drawer.

Bullets elsewhere but his great grandkids found both, loaded same, and one child was shot point blank while laying in the bed. Killed instantly.

Old man was on the porch, deaf and never heard the shot.

Kid that fired the shot was screaming, drug his brother off the bed onto the floor trying to get him to his great grandfather .... huge blood trail.

Entire detective division rolled on it. Happened right after we had just eaten lunch.

Tragic as hell.

I started the Eddie Eagle gun safety program here after that.

Once, a teacher asked the kids how many of them knew someone that had been shot?

HALF of the kids in the auditorium raised their hands.

I thought NO WAY ... so quickly ... at random ... I picked ten of them and had them come up to the stage.

ALL TEN had a story to tell.

Now mind you this was in a poverty stricken ghetto school.

The program took off and I was asked to do it all over.

Every time I taught the class I would ask the same question "How many of you know someone that has been shot"

EVERY TIME ... roughly half of the audience had a story to tell.

This from poor minority kids to well to do, private school kids.

Now I am as pro gun as anyone on this board ... but I found this astonishing.

Even for a 20 year street cop/detective.

Stay low brothers.

brian k, sain
Monday, September 17, 2007, at 02:45:41 (ZULU)

FN Mausers - have 7: 1 Sears, 1. Montgomery Wards, 1 FN Deluxe, 1 Husky, and 3 military. They are the most under-rated actions around. The only standard production actions of the same type (controlled feed/claw extractor) that might be better would be a pre-64 Winchester M70 action or a CZ Brno action of the same era. (And that is arguable.)

FN made complete rifles for direct import under their name, and sold actions to Marlin, Colt, Sako, Husky, Sears, Montgomery Wards, Browning, etc. The actions are very good, though the quality of wood on some of the US store-brand rifles was so-so.

I don't recall that FN made a .308 in their own name, but I loaned out my Blue Book. Olsen says that they made a .243, so they might have made a .308. They did not make a short action in their own name. For $250 it might be a "custom" rebarrel on a commercial action. That is not necessarily bad - depends who did the work, barrel maker, stock, etc.

The original FNs will have their proof marks on the barrel as well as the action. It won't be a mystery - if so it is a good price, even if it is a later rifle. And the commercial Sears/JC Higgins/Husky guns have roll-marked barrels.

If the barrel lacks the FN proof marks or a commercial roll mark, it is most likely re-barreled. If the receiver has a thumb cut, it is a sporterized military rifle - in which case $250 is probably about the most it would be worth, unless a name smith did the work.

The action alone is probably worth $200 if it is a post-war commercial FN 98 Mauser action in original condition. (I would buy it if it was not butchered.) And if the barrel is good, you can't really go wrong for $250. They are not hard to rebarrel, and there are a lot of after-market stocks out there, including Boyds, Butler Creek, and Richards Microfit.

There are a number of different manufacturing changes with FN Mausers over time, between 1947 and 1970 (as with all firearms) to save money. You might look at Olson's "Mauser Bolt Action Rifles", page 269-272 (in the 3rd Edition, anyway) for details.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 06:31:22 (ZULU)

Moron w/AK video. Click.

Thanks for the well wishes, guys. I think I'm gonna fucking choke the next person that tells me how bad it is for THEM that Dad died. Funerals suck, and this "viewing" horseshit the day before is obviously just to make the funeral home money. Not to mention, it's creepy and wierd.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 07:15:02 (ZULU)

Doc & P Hayden

I was buying sight unseen, that's why i asked. I should have bought first and asked later, missed it by 2 hours.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 10:25:50 (ZULU)

I have been waiting for this to happen. Read the link. The motorcade got attacked, it had folks from DOS in the vehicles, they defended themselves, a vehicle was diabled. Now, they are being thrown out of country supposedly for killing "inocent" bystanders.

This is not good. Maybe it is time to leave and just turn the place to glass.

http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/world/story/1822697/

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 15:03:51 (ZULU)

On Saturday I stood on a hill and watched a black bear forage. I had five good looks at him. He ranged 293 yards away and it was open season.

But I wasn't carrying a rifle.

"Couda, Woulda, Shoulda"

Gary Kaney: Please call my house and leave your number on the machine. I'll call you back.

CDC'
Monday, September 17, 2007, at 16:28:43 (ZULU)

Gary:

If you want to check the pawn shops and smaller gun shops, you will eventually find a used FN 98 commercial rifle, probably one of the store brands build on an FN action, and probably in .30-06 or .270. Keeps your eyes open. It is worth the wait.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, September 17, 2007, at 23:16:14 (ZULU)

CDC,

I believe that's one of the reasons Elmer Keith carried a sidearm!

Guys,

FYI, for those that didn't know.... In some states, at least Kansas, anyway, you have to have a court order to keep people from removing property from a deceased person's home. About an hour after Dad died, I got a call that 2 uncles of mine were at his house loading stuff up. Since I was pissed, armed, and 40 miles away, I called the Sherriff's office and the executor of the estate. The Sherriff's deputy told me they couldn't do squat without a court order! Not even the executor could stop it, legally.

Fortunately, the property was recovered the next day, without incident or charges, but it sure as hell woulda ended up with somebody's guts hanging on the fence if not. My uncle claimed he was "securing" the stuff. I always thought that meant locking the doors, not loading your truck in the middle of the night.

Oh, well, I'm pretty sure Dad took measures in his will in anticipation of stuff like this. Same uncle did a bunch of dirty deeds when his Mom died.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at 06:15:30 (ZULU)

Travis...

It's amazing what you see with family, once someone dies. Good ol' unka Charlie becomes a vulture... along with most of the family.

The death of my grandfather (who was pretty well off) destroyed the remaining family, as all the sweet loving people came in for the feed fest, and cut each other to ribbons in the process.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at 10:06:06 (ZULU)

Catdude: My uncle got the Enfield my Grand Dad paid $12 for during the Hoover administration. Fine. He called me up and said that his goof-ball religion forbade weapons, so he would sell it to me for about quadruple it's value. I never did find out what happened to the rifle.

I inherited a pocket knife. That is enough. I don't need any more.

CDC'
Tuesday, September 18, 2007, at 13:50:00 (ZULU)

The War;

This is a series by Ken Burns (Civil War fame) and PBS. It looks at WW2 through the eyes of the veterans, families and communities.

One on the four cities they look at is Mobile, AL. Hey, that's where I live ; )

http://pressroom.pbs.org:80/programs/the_war

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, September 19, 2007, at 02:46:13 (ZULU)

There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some Exchange students in the class.

One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back And stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked,

'Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'

The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke.

'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn.

When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence.

They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in The last side.

The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how To forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America.

The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms- just a little at a time.

One should always remember 'There is no such thing as a free Lunch!'

Also, 'You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Also, if you see that all of this wonderful government 'help' is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America, you might want to send this on to your friends. If you think the free ride is essential to your way of life then you will probably delete this email, but God help you when the gate slams shut!

TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Robert A. Heinlein

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 19, 2007, at 03:28:23 (ZULU)

I put a set of Steiner 15X56 binos (see link) that I got a couple of weeks ago on the Emporium for $350. Steiner sent them to me as replacements. These are good, but I NEED the Swaros.

CDC'
Wednesday, September 19, 2007, at 13:41:25 (ZULU)

Click. Damn good fighter whuppin' a crowd barehanded.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Thursday, September 20, 2007, at 11:51:57 (ZULU)

CDC - I just sent you a link to a pair of Swaro bins for sale on another site...no attachments in the email. If the roster email doesn't work, let me know. The items are not mine and I don't have any connection with the seller...caveat emptor

medicjim
Thursday, September 20, 2007, at 17:40:41 (ZULU)

Ref: Strap Hangin'

I'm in KC hanging our at GA Precision and Badger Ordnance with the guys. Their new facility is nice with plenty of room to work.

As some of you know George was a K9 Cop and still has "Rocky" his working dog. This animal is amazing....and a little scary.

I visited a Class III dealer with Marty and the guy opened his vault for me and said, "Enjoy yourself." and went back to his office. It was fantastic!

Oh well, today we're driving over to Sierra for a visit. These "business" trips are so exhausting ;-).

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad)
Kansas City, MO, USA - Friday, September 21, 2007, at 10:35:01 (ZULU)

Blackwater back at work!!

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, September 21, 2007, at 19:10:54 (ZULU)

Kevin, That sure sound's nice. I just spent a week in Wausau commissioning a new USARC and I still need to go back at least another week or two.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 00:09:35 (ZULU)

Hey everyone just a little update here. I am going to be starting leave on 26 Sept and then 31 Oct I will be retired and yes I know it sounds weird that a 23 year old guy is saying that he is retiring from the Army but hey crap happens.

For everyone going to sniper Quest I hope I get the chance to meet you when I stop by on my why to the old man's house where me, my wife and three children will be staying for a little while. Man Sarge must really love me and my demons (yes that includes my wife) to let us live with him for a while.

Well that is all I got for now.

Sarge Jr

"Over and Out"

Sarge Jr.
HAAF, GA, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 03:22:13 (ZULU)

Who makes the best one piece base for a Mauser 98 Large ring? I need one without the holes already drilled, as the back screws are 1/2 a hole off from all the bases I've found.

Also, for all you Doctor types, is there anything that can be done about a twisted pelvis? My physical therapist says mine's twisted to the point that my left leg is an inch or so shorter than the right, and I have burcitis in my left hip. I can't hardly mow the lawn anymore. If I hafta be in a cast for a year, it'll beat another 40 years being crippled.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 04:01:37 (ZULU)

Travis,

Will two piece bases fit? I don't know of any one piece Mauser bases that aren't already drilled. One thing that can be done is to epoxy screws in the holes that are off. After the epoxy cures grind off the screw heads. You can then re-drill and tap the receiver. It actually works quite well.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 14:01:18 (ZULU)

Travis...

CAn't mow the lawn, and you're complaining??? Get the surgery. Later, when other junk starts breaking down, at least this one will be history.

As to the mouser... I have been there with several customers rifles.

First, I would seriously recomend a two piece base - it will make life soooooo much easier.

But, if for some secret reason, you must have a one piece base, then get one of the better ones like Leupold, then file the holes in the base to match the holes in the action... DON'T EVER TRY TO MOVE THE HOLES IN THE ACTION...

... if you do, you will soon learn the true meaning of "Oh shit, why did I start this!!"

Oblong-ing the holes in the base is easy if you have a drillpress... if not, take it to a local 'smith.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 14:38:26 (ZULU)

more bad news about Blackwater:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j5bT6zBuFB23rj9mMRTJbqC0xHYg

WASHINGTON (AP) — Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 23:45:25 (ZULU)

When anyone manages to get out some bad news on the "mercenaries" (and there is a LOT of hate out there for anyone who carries a gun for a living)there will be more that jump on the bandwagon. I doubt, seriously, if the management at BW would countenance gun smuggling to earn a few thousand dollars and risk a multi-million dollar contract. Use salt. Lots of it.

On a lighter note, I had my second grandson pop into this world yesterday. Draelen Lorne, 7lb, 1oz, 19.5 inches, and cute as hell. Good lungs. Big feet! 11B. Mom, my youngest little girl, is doing well. When the hell did she get out of braces and get all grown up? Sheesh.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 01:48:38 (ZULU)

Charles...

>" When the hell did she get out of braces and get all grown up? Sheesh....."<

They do it when you are shooting out at the range... they'll do it every time. Last week, Ruggus Rattus use to sit on my lap in his Oshkosh overhauls, and I told him bed time stories...

... this week he is 6'2, and wants to see girls nekid.

;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 03:08:15 (ZULU)

>>>... this week he is 6'2, and wants to see girls nekid.<<<

Takes after his Dad, huh...?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 03:38:54 (ZULU)

Since things on SC have been kinda slow lately, I thought I'd bring up a real killer subject.

Cleaning Riffles.

YOU CAN'T!!

I mean you really can't get a riffle barrel really clean!!!

Here's how I have come to this conclusion...

Now, I'll be the first to admit that my riffle cleaning duties have been, well, sorta given short shrift.

I'm sure that a psychiatrist would say that it comes from a latent resentment related to cleaning my room when I was 4 years old, or some kind of other deep seated psychological complex like that.

But my Rum drinking buddies would tell you in simpler terms, "'lito is just plain lazy!!"... and you would have saved about a million dollars in shrink fees.

Well... I'll fess up to the lazy thing when it comes to cleaning riffles.

I usually run a wet patch, then a bunch of brush strokes, and another wet patch, and a dry patch.

If it looks kinda clean (a little gray on the dry patch), I say, "What the hell" and pack it in.

Well... a few weeks ago, I restocked a 40-XBBR riffle that should have shot better. It shot OK, but for a heavy benchrest type riffle, it was a little light in the loafers. Ran around .3" to .4" with V-Maxs... it should run half of that.

The stock on the riffle didn't fit worth a damn, so it is now in a much better stock.

All of this leads to cleaning.

I decided to give the riffle a "full court press" in the cleaning department, so I could start from "scratch", so to speak.

I mean get it down to raw, clean steel - no gray on a patch, no blue on the patches... no matter how long the barrel was wet, nothing could come out on it.

OK??? At the same time, I decided to include a few other bench grade guns that had lost their edge, long before their time.

Well... it has been two weeks.

I have run patches, and brushed my barrels until my hands were bare to the bone... I have plugged the chamber and filled the barrels with all kinds of "stuff"... toxic chemicals that are 'posed to clean barrels, remove warts, and cure syphilis.

Getting the black "gook" out was not too big a chore... at the end of the first day, there was absolutely no black stuff left. It took three or four sessions with #9, but when it was gone, all of a sudden it was GONE - no tapering off... just lots of black shit, then "poof" none of it. It came out with Hoppe's #9.

Oddly enough, it appears that the black gook covers much of the jacket fouling in the barrel, because when the barrel was soaking in the beginning, a lot of black stuff came out, with a little copper... but once the black gook was completely gone, the patches came out really dark green - like "Hunter's Green". And not just stripes, but the patches were solid dark dark green.

So I kept wetting the barrel with #9, and letting it soak, wet, for a few hours. Then wet patch it again, and Bingo, dark green patches.

The #9 was working fine, but I thought I would go to warp speed to get this damn thing over...

So I decided to soak the barrels over night with "KG-12". For those that don't know what KG-12 is, it's one of the most aggressive brass/copper removers that's available. Go here:

http://www.eabco.com/KG12Test.pdf

For a given amount of time, KG12 will remove 200 to 300 times as much copper as "Sweets", or the other "big guys"!

So I soaked the barrel over night, and ran a patch through it in the morning... so far, lookin' good - "WHITE"!

So I ran a patch with some #9 through the barrel ,and came back in the morning, and MY GOD... Blue streaks. Same in the other three riffles that were undergoing my latest "project".

So I have plugged the barrels again, and the riffles are getting a good soak.

But I fear that in the morning, there will be some blue on the patches.

I won't quit, but it may be a long winter...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 04:01:54 (ZULU)

Blackwater employees and gunrunning:

What I understood from the AP news story and other coverage broadcast in Canada was that the gunrunning was the action of a few employees, w/o the knowledge of Blackwater mgmt. The investigation isn't done, so there may be further developments.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 06:00:02 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Have you tried the bore foams, such as Wipeout or Outers? It workie good here. Also I've found VFG felt plugs work ok for scrubbin, but would work very well if they were about 2" long..

Guys,

I put in my notice here Friday, looks like Lady Liberty is getting her native son back. Ripped me apart making this decision, the UK has been very kind to me and I consider it home. The way of life suits me, the people are brilliant, my crew is outstanding, and the friends I've made here are life long. But, good gigs sometimes lead to opportunities that you have to grab by the ball sack. Can't get into much detail, but it's an awesome gig bringin me home. And it would have taken nothing less than to do so.

take care,

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 11:15:24 (ZULU)

JR...

I haven't tried the foam stuff, but according to the tests that have been done, it doesn't remove copper as well as KG12.

I will test them at some time soon, but I'm not optimistic about them.

What I have found, is that cleaning the black goop is a separate operation from removing copper.

While some cleaners (like #9) will get both... the black goop must be removed COMPLETELY, before you get to serious copper removal.

I think the black stuff is like a layer of paint in the barrel, covering most of the copper.

It needs physical agitation to loosen it. So far as I know, as it is not dissolve-able with simple water based, "biodegradable", compounds. (Bravo, feel free to pitch in here ANYTIME, dudeski :))))

Counter to what many say, it is not carbon, though it does contain some small amount of carbon... it is made up of primer residue, a little carbon, and the deposited intermediate decomposition products of nitrocellulose, which are chemically very complex.

I have a feeling that the black goop might dissolve with Acetone and ether, which are the solvents used for nitrocellulose during manufacture, but that's a little extreme (chemically speaking wise), and the black goop is not the hard part to remove... it's the copper down in the corners of the lands/groves... it keeps coming and coming and coming and coming... whoops, sounds like a porn flick ;)

Anyway... congrats on coming back to the USA... I think.

It's going to be a culture shock, coming back after all those years in God's country, where you did't have to lock your car or your house, to come to a place where all the houses have bars on the windows to keep the "Socially challanged" out of your bedroom at 2 in the morning.

And even if you weren't in the UK... just moving from SoDak to the "new state" would be a culture shock. I once thought of moving there, and went to see what it was like... Ugh! It was like NYC on Geritol ;)

But there are nice places there - you didn't tell me what town you would be in.

I'm ready for a visit... I got an A-- B--t to bring with me. HA ;)))

Stay cool.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 11:51:18 (ZULU)

Lito,

Regarding the KG 12, I've both seen the tests with coins and have tested the product here on the real thing. Cleans a penny up nice. But not as impressive on boomsticks as one would have hoped..Still have half the small bottle I got 5 years ago, wipeout and outers(forrest bore foam here) with some SC prep scrub kick KG's ass. Maybe I got in a weak batch. The KG carbon remover seems to work better or as it should than the 12 imho..200-300 times better Cu removal my ass is what I got to say..

You're right, got to remove the goop before can get to the copper, then more goop, then copper, then steel.

I grew up a miners brat in the prime of Dad's Chevron, Harrison Western, and Gulf Mineral days, and we moved around the country with his job quite a bit til settling down in SoDak. And then he started the business where we personally delivered dad's pumps to all the mines around the US via white cargo van..I've seen territory, by the time I was 14 had all ready been topside 40 states..When it came time in school to name state capitals, hell I'd driven thru most of 'em so it came easy, often asked if they wanted the street the capitol building was located for extra credit..

But this one is different. I guess at the end of the day I can say I conquered Europe for a while. Left due to a knighthood..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 12:37:13 (ZULU)

Lito

I'm going through the same thing right now. If you what to compound the problem borrow a bore scope like i did. That will really drive you nuts. I scoped that 243 i bought , after looking down that barrel i thought i'd check all my guns, what a surprize i got. I know what i'm going to be doing this winter, and i think it starts with ELBOW GREASE. I bought and do like KG Carbon Remover, you can go to kgindustries.com if you want to check out there products.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 13:22:01 (ZULU)

Barrel cleaning:

I've been told by a reliable source that there is copper in the pores of the steel, not just in the corners of the grooves, and that removing it won't make the rifle shoot better, and sometimes makes it shoot worse. That statement was said to apply to match-grade barrels, not the $8 factory crap best used as tomato stakes.

I've never owned a barrel worse than the barrels on my HBVs, which I think are Wilson, and are pretty good, so I can't say about the really bad stuff.

I don't try to get all the copper out of my barrels - just clean them up enough to keep shooting well. Works, so far. My AI with 7,000+ rounds down the tube is still consistently the same half minute it shot after break-in, and I don't need more than that.

Good luck with your project.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 13:24:42 (ZULU)

Lindy...

>"I don't try to get all the copper out of my barrels - just clean them up enough to keep shooting well. Works, so far. My AI with 7,000+ rounds down the tube is still consistently the same half minute it shot after break-in, and I don't need more than that."<

This thing started with trying to clean up a bunch of BR grade rifles, and I discovered that they were dirtier than I thought... which is why (I think) that they were not shooting as well as they should have. :(((

Then, as I went on with it, I found out stuff about cleaning that I never knew - JR is right - the black goop goes, and then copper, and then, if you keep going, you come to more black goop... then more copper... so running a brush and patch through, until you get a "clean-ish" patch, means absolutely nothing... there could be 7 layers of crud still in the barrel.

For example, I have been working on a 40-XB single shot with a stainless steel barrel... it was looking good yesterday, so I gave it a soak over night, and ran a patch through it this morning, and there was a hint of gray... so, just to be certain, and because I promised myself that I would get them so clean that nothing would come out, I thought I'd run a brush through it just to get the "last bit" out...

... well, another bucket of black goop came out... as bad as the first. The shit never stops coming out.

I feel like I'm mining the damn shit!! Matbe there's some resale value in it ;)

There is a good chance that many of my rifles have new barrels, and I didn't know it, cuz the bullets have been riding on a 1/4" of copper and black goop for years!! ;)))

Anyway... this has become an educational project.

I remember when the electric bore cleaners came into vogue (and went just as fast). I never understood when they weren't successful, as it seemed like such a good idea.

A friend(?) tried to sell me his for about $145. Since he is anal retentive, I thought there must be something wrong here...

Now I have learned that you can't get the copper out if it's under the black stuff, and the two may be layered like a cake. I have worn out 5 brushes so far on two .224 bore rifles... "worn out" means that you can stop the brush in the middle of the barrel, and change direction of the rod, and the brush WILL follow along, instead of jaming and refusing to move back... the brushes are so worn that you can push the brush through the bore with one finger on the rod... not a good thing (Martha told me so) :((

I don't need to get the copper out of the "pores", but if you have cleaned it well enough to get it out of the corners of the lands/groves, it will come out of the pores anyway... but the first bullet will put back a minuscule layer that will fill the pores in the steel, so I'm not worried.

Maybe this will qualify as a PhD thesis??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 15:58:52 (ZULU)

I got a question for youz bums (JR in particular).

Back when a lot of the guys on this site were shooting the Carlos Hathcock matches down at Storm Mountain in WVa, the caliber of the day was the 308. Not by rules so much, but it was kind of a gentleman's agreement.

There were a few newbees that had bigger guns, mostly Rem PSSs in 300 WinMag, but they didn't place fer shit, cuz they got their ass kicked by their own riffles (ouchie!!).

At the last match I went to, along with a lot of the guys here, the UnDude, PeteR, and Ken Hunter included... we were whipped by a couple of Swedish snipers that came across the pond to show us "How it is done"... and, man, did they show us how it was done - they killed everything and everyone in sight, and walked away with most of the goodies. They both shot 300 WinMags in AI frames

So I decided, "The hell with that shit, I'm gonna have a bigassed riffle next year". So I got a cream puff Rem 40-XB action and set out to build the ultimate M-24, in 300 WM. And the guy that ran the matches, banned 300 Win Mags :(((

But to the point of this... the guy that put the barrel on my 308 M-24, was damn good, and the rifle is outstanding (the one that shot the computer disk at 405 yards:

http://www.snipercountry.com/images/Pablito-M24-0.46-target.jpg

... so I called him and asked him if he would put a 300 Win Mag tube on my action. He said he had a 28"x1.25"x0.90" pig fat barrel that would just the ticket, but he wouldn't tell me who made it. I asked him why, and he wouldn't tell me that either :(((

But he did say that if I didn't like it, he would put a new Shilen on for free.

The "free" part sounded great, so I sent him the action, and when it came back two months later, the barrel "looked" real nice - I mean it was stainless and shiny, what else can you tell by "looking" at it.

So I built the rifle, and the barrel was out-friggin-standing.

It had no bad habits, no "nodes" (if you believe in that voodoo shit)... it NEVER shot a group larger than 0.4" and as the loads were increased, the groups slowly moved higher and higher on the target - it was like a computer program, and not like "real" riffles, with "quirks and personalities".

Now... the guy that barreled the gun is no longer with us, and I'd like to know who made the barrel.

Now here's the thing... it is a 10" twist, 12 groove, heavy 308 cal barrel... there can't be very many guys making a 12 grove 30 cal, top end match barrels.

Anyone got a clue on who made the barrel??

JR, come on in here mang, I need your wisdom!

See what happens when you start cleaning riffles... it ruins your life, Jim!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 17:13:18 (ZULU)

It is hard to say 'Lito, at one time everyone was playing with all sorts of combinations for 308, I know I had 12 groove 308 buttons when I was at HS, but most were in benchrest twists of 14-17 twist..And I'm not sure if they were from Bill Atkinson or the old A&M or picked up from an auction or what. Are there any significant markings on the outside of the barrel? A lot of the buttoneers we know today were just starting up in the 80's and early 90's, and may have very well went with a 12 groove count at some point just to get barrels out, as it's easier to pull a 12 groove 308 button than say a 4 groove. Or they could have been supplying a manufacturer, like Marlin, and ran some spares..I'd have to check some sources eh..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 18:03:40 (ZULU)

Rod: This story smells of inflation: There are a myriad of regulations regarding guns crossing borders in the middleeast---mostly covering uniformed service members by invitation only. That leaves a great big NO for anyone else wanting to move armed folks about. There are small ways around this here and there, usually thru DoD doing the moving for you...but this too left much room for improvements.

So, what happened for a while was "we know but don't need to know how you got these weapons here"--all from sources far and wide (HK 416s in the stan are but one example--straight from the EU)...

The ever evolving mission and needs of contractors made the need for upgrading weapons outpace the ability to do so thru existing regs. ALL knew this, and ALL "got it done" anyway.

It was just accepted...by DoD and the affected company alike.

Add to this a random (if at all) captured weapon showing up in the hands of a terr...example? What happened to the four BW employees' weapons in Fallujah back in early 04 after they got strung up?

One thing I know for certain on 5 specific contracts: The contractors have better accountability over firearms than the US uniformed services do. I say that because of the "stay behind" mess we use to transfer proprty within theater from unit to replacing unit. That mess included M4s that float to units with A2s...and that is a huge mess---huge. Add to that mess the Iraqi give aways without serial numbered placement---and the Government itself created a monster.

I know a guy who hand built his war weapon from parts found in the trash, making a combo that shot damned good (grin)---and that fact mentioned here previously ought to clue folks in on how bad we are wasting money...and how easily we are giving crap away to those who would do us harm...

Anyone trying to blame contractors for arming badguys is sorely underestimating the scope (and the blame line) of the real problem.

Another thing we don't see every day is the "subcontractors" hired in-country to do things like cook and clean. The base (whereever) vets a bunch of locals, and the end-user (for lack of a better word) gets their corporate Logo placed on the locals pass badge.

If they later turn out to be bad...well, do you trust the media to make any distinctions?

Speaking of misdirection: A local leftist loon radio host used the Blackwater shutdown to slam the surge: "If Baghdad is so much safer now, why did the State Department suspend all travel for it's people there?" Because, dumbass, the security that they travel with since 2003 got suspended...but that was not even thought of by this clown.

It is to the point where no opinion on either side of this issue canbe trusted at face value. That is unfortunate, since Americans are such pisspoor researchers of truth. Which, in turn, stems from a lack of education.

heheh, round and round we go...and it all comes back to "progressive policy"

Travis, the pelvis is not twisted--your spine is. My left leg is only 1/2-3/4 inch shorter, depending on which doctor i want to believe. But a careful examination of my spinal xray will show assymetric compressions that mean nothing individually, but collectively turn my spine slightly. A chiropractor (out of pocket) did a great baseline analysis to get the "army docs" to finally consider looking at this cause. "Oh" they said...Sometimes the non traditional medicos have a more open mind than the traditional docs. May want to go see a good chiro in your area...or give me a holler and I'll give you my guy's name and number. |If you and I have similarities in our conditon, he will pick up on that quickly and steer you in the right direction for treatment. For now, I mow the lawn and drywall ceilings due to his bashing my spine!

Joe M
Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 18:05:23 (ZULU)

Match calibers: The .308 is dead.

At the Sniper's Hide Cup we shot here in the spring, there was one .308 in the top 10. The rest were some variety of .243, including 6mmXC, or .260s.

The problem with the .300 WM is the recoil, which the calibers listed above don't suffer from. The .300 WM, though, is great, if you put a suppressor on the end of the barrel, or a muzzle brake, though the brake will make you unpopular with fellow competitors. Otherwise, the recoil will inhibit your ability to make fast subsequent shots and/or followup shots.

Another very good cartridge, used by George Gardner to win a recent ASC, is 7mm WSM.

Another now-essential feature of a match-winning rifle is detachable magazines. That can be something in an AICS, or using Badger's DBM hardware. Trying to go fast with a top-loader is too much of a handicap.

Now, having said that, I'm still shooting a .308, because I consider a match to be a test with the rifle and gear we train people on. If, however, you have your heart set on winning a match, pick another cartridge from the list above.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 18:57:28 (ZULU)

JR...

No markings on the barrel other than the caliber marks by Tom (the fellow that fitted it). I guess I should say it is a 10" twist, but I think you figured that out by the caliber (not a 300 WinMag benchrest gun ;))).

It's a shame that sniper matches are going that way... something wrong with a .243 sniper riffle!!... the gun should be able to knock something over, not just make a "splat" on a steel plate, or a hole in a cardboard target.

If you need detachable magazines, it seems like it's a spotter's match, not a sniper's match... then you need a AR-10, or a M-21/M-25.

Snipers don't shoot that fast or that often from one FFP.

Maybe a selector switch would be nice, ya thunk???

Harumph!

Humbug too!

In the midst of my new found religious calling (The Gods of Gun Cleaning), I came across two Unertl 2" scopes that I bought for parts a few years back... and I spent the afternoon making a like new Unertl 15x 2-inch Ultra Varmint, with return to battery spring and BLACK MOUNTS (very rare!!).

I got a riffle just waiting for it ;))))))))))))))))

Cleaning is good! (Just ask Martha!!)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 22:04:20 (ZULU)

OK, Cleaning Country: Be very careful with any ammonia-bearing cleaning solvent. Having heard that Sweets 7.62 is the bee's knees for removing copper, and having a PacNor match '06 that seemed to copper foul much too easy, I took to soaking the barrel (overnight even)....it sure came clean. And the accuracy went away, so when I had it rebarreled, I had the smith cut the barrel longitudinally to see what's what inside...looked like the grand canyon...from solvent etching, not from "fire checking"/throat wash, whatever.

I do believe that copper is a component of barrel steel...for machinability (along with molydenum and maybe a pinch of lead)..anything that will dissolve copper will dissolve your barrel eventually.

Easiest barrel I have to clean is the one on the FN SPR...chrome lined. Toughest one is the Ruger No.1 in 275 Rigby (I call it that to get the "what the hell?" look). Much easier since running Tubb's final finish bullets through it...figgered I couldn't hurt it.

Now I use remclean on a brush, followed by Kroil, followed by WipeOut... looking at the muzzle I see no copper wash a-tall. Now I don't have a borescope...would be too expensive since I'd spend all my time cleaning and rebarreling things, but I have no qualms about getting "good enough" clean and accuracy stays.

'Course, I'm not a benchrester looking to put 'em in the "ones" at 200. I tend to use riffles that I can pack in the country.

Just my <.02 worth.

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 22:15:24 (ZULU)

'Lito said, "Snipers don't shoot that fast or that often from one FFP."

I'm afraid that turns out not to be the case.

The real world currently inhabited by military snipers is more accurately characterized by "running gunfight" than by "one shot, one kill." Gunny Hathcock is dead, and so is the sniper world he knew.

We train 'em here, and they come back, and tell us what they did, and how they want to be trained when they come back. One recent group, due back shortly, wanted to work inside 800 yards, multiple-target multiple-distance engagements - with no shots taken prone.

And that's what they get - because some of them have been deployed more than six times in combat zones, and they know what they need lots better than we do.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 22:33:00 (ZULU)

Well.. yeah but!

I guess it splitting hairs, and guys DO have to train for the sandbox they are expected to perform in. Seems like what they are doing is more the roll of the spotter or DM, in a MOUT environment.... id est, Long range firefights.

Not that it makes a difference. As long as the other side has losses ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 23, 2007, at 22:54:26 (ZULU)

Lito - Thos two Swedish snipers were shooting issued AIs, and they were both chambered in .308 (I traded for the brass). I actually swapped emails with one of them for a few years as his GF came to NYC to study. Tony Yackawski was the one with the 300WM that cleaned the UKD course.

On sniping - What works in Iraq is one thing. I suspect if the US mil wholly adopts that doctrine, the next time our buys get in a fight with a skilled sniping opponent, we may lose a bunch of them.

medicjim
Monday, September 24, 2007, at 02:10:59 (ZULU)

The formal title of Marine Corps snipers is Scout/Sniper because the gathering of intelligence was traditionally more important than the role of killing high-value targets.

Now the intelligence gathering is going more toward "technical means", like the Dragon Eye UAVs of the Marines, manned aircraft including helicopters and Spectres with FLIRs, thermal imagers and other sensors, and other platforms. And the killing of high-value targets may be done by precision guided munitions - especially at long distances.

There is still a role for the lone long shot - and all of the services with snipers still train for it - but its importance is declining.

An example: the service schools still teach construction of Ghillie suits. A recently retired Special Forces sniper told my boss that he had built his in sniper school, and carried it throughout his career - and never once wore it.

Urban hides are more important than the traditional ones dug in the ground - because that's where the fight is.

The times they are a'changing - and so is the role of military snipers. The military is still trying to fight 4th Generation opponents using 2nd Generation techniques - but they're catching on. Reading the Small Wars Journal is illuminating. So is talking to the guys doing the job.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 04:11:23 (ZULU)

from Small Wars Journal:

All Hands On Deck – Radically Reorienting Private Security in Iraq

(written in late August 2007 before the latest wave of press interest in Blackwater).

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/09/all-hands-on-deck-radically-re/

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 05:13:35 (ZULU)

Cleaning Country...

For the black goop use Slip 2000 Carbon Killer.

For the copper use Pro-Shot Copper Solvent IV.

Both products work very well. At least according to my borescope.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 05:23:46 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Yes, the spine IS twisted .... in addition to the other stuff. I have 3 fractured vertebra, (by last count) a bunch of broken ribs, a torqued sacrum, and a tailbone that pops, since I've broken it so many times. Oh, yeah, my hip pops outta place, too. (It generally only happened when I'd spur a bronc too high on the neck.) Next time you're watching a rodeo, study the bareback bronc riders kinda close. That'll explain why the tailbone/pelvis thing happened. It's also how I broke my back.

P.S.-Remember to send me pics of those holsters/gunbelt you want.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, KS., USA - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 06:17:54 (ZULU)

Patton said something like, "If the men at the front request something that you know they don't need, move Heaven and Earth to get it to them."

If they want training in XYZ, train them in XYZ.

medicjim: Thanks for the Swarovski link. I'm looking for the 15X56.

CDC'
Monday, September 24, 2007, at 10:27:53 (ZULU)

Do any of you gentlemen know anything about hearing enhancers such as the "Walker's Game Ear" line of products?

CDC'
Monday, September 24, 2007, at 10:43:41 (ZULU)

CDC:

I use the Peltor Tac 7 electronic ear muffs. I got them for hearing protection, but they will also amplify sounds as well.

http://www.aosafety.com/aosafety.com/shooters/products/tac_01.htm

I believe Midway and Dillon (as well as others) also make a set but cannot speak for them. These are bulkier than the 'hearing aid' style you mention...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 13:45:24 (ZULU)

CDC...

The "Walker's Game Ear", is very pricey, but you probably know that by now. $700 each (one ear), or a big whoppin discount - $1,300 a pair for plain ol' analog devices... $2,200 for digital (w/surround sound??).

That's a big "ouchie", dude !!!

What is absent is detailed technical data on cut-off points, amount of gain or amplification of low level sounds below the cut-off point, and suppression of external loud noises, like gun shots. I doubt that they offer much in the way of protection from loud noises.

They have 24 Db suppression muffs for $400, that are visually similar to everyone else's 25 Db suppression muffs for $95-$130. For $190, you can get a pair of Peltor's that do all the regular amplification/cut-off stuff, and have a built in AM/FM radio, and can be hooked up to a two way radio, or scanner...

But they Walker's have the NRA logo on them, so that's good for $50 to the NRA.

Personally, I'd rather get a pair of Peltor's #6s, or #7s, and just send the $300 direct to the NRA/ILA, cuz they can use the money better than the Walker muff peoples!

I have Peltor 6s, and the first day I took them to the range, I was setting up, and talking to some of the regular range rats, and when I settled in to shoot, I noticed crickets were on steroids - I had never heard them before - took the muffs off, and it was dead quiet. On low level sounds, they have 19 Db (~80x) of amplification.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 17:27:03 (ZULU)

I wear earing aids. They are for a high frequncy loss. They are about $6500 dollars a pair. Thank God for VA.

I was told a long time ago to always wear large quality muffs. If you are shooting rifle to wear muffs backed up by plugs if you have a problem pushing them off with the stock.

I was told that you can loose a great deal of hearing off the bone behind the ear if it is left exposed to high decible sounds. That muffs help protect that bone.

When I am on the range I wear my electronic Peltors and leave off my aids.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 18:01:14 (ZULU)

When we have carbine classes here, I wear foam plugs underneath my Peltor electronic muffs - those little M4s are LOUD. I also think that's a good idea whenever you have a high probability of simultaneous shots.

We had a precision rifle class here last week. All the shooters had suppressors. Much more civilized.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 19:11:00 (ZULU)

Lito, a.k.a. 'Gun Cleaning God'

Good info. I hadn't thought of the layering problem. I've switched to nylon brushes, because I thought the bronze brushes were contributing to some of the residual blue/green patches. I have found the bore foam (Forrest, Wipe-out) to be extremely effective in removing copper fouling. I've never tried K12.

As far as solvents, I've never used ether, but I hear it works great. Dunno where you would find it, I think ether might be restricted. Might want to have a fire extinguisher at hand.

Does anyone have experience with laser bore sighting systems? I've read that some of the lasers are hard to see on paper at any significant distance.

Duman
Monday, September 24, 2007, at 20:42:37 (ZULU)

Duman,

You might want to switch back to bronze brushes.The nylon is soft and carbon can get imbedded into the bristles,wich can then act like as an abrasive in the bore....The bronze bristles just break it up and move the carbon out....

My only experience with laser bore sighters is that I seen the pics of what was left of a rifle after one was left in the bore during first/last/only shot fired when someone else tried using one.That answered my question on how well they work.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Monday, September 24, 2007, at 23:41:13 (ZULU)

Duman...

I've learned a lot about gun cleaning this past two weeks. It was never high on my lists of stuff to "investigate", but necessity is the mother of something... maybe just a "mother" ;)

Bravo and I have a looooong talk on the cell today (and I wonder why I'm over in minutes every month).

Some of what I have learned as TRUTH, is...

Bronze brushes are necessary, but they DO leave brass in the bore, so you can chase your one tail (or brush as it may be) in cleaning the bore, by brass brushing, patching, seeing filth, brass brushing, patching, seeing filth... Hmmmm sounds like what I was doing a few days ago.

I never believed that stuff about brushes leaving enough copper to turn a patch blue, but I have now witnessed it. I have gotten three barrels down to the bare steel, 12 hour soak with copper remover left nothing, and #9 on a patch came out C-L-E-A-N and white. Then I brushed the barrel five full strokes, and ran a patch through it, and voila, filthy... so filthy blue that it looked black - Hmmmmmm sounds familiar... big time.

So I am thinking that what I thought were layers of black goop, were actually the new bronze I was putting on the bore when I went back and brushed again... I am ordering some nylon brushes with aluminum cores, so I can either confirm or eliminate brass as the source of the repeated black goop, or know that it IS the source of the repeated black patches that I thought were layers.

Also, I was surprised at how fast the brushes were wearing out... that brass/bronze has to go some where... on the bore?? I thunk maybe so!!

But I have also learned that the brass jag does NOT cause green on the patch... it was easy... when the barrel was dead white, I soaked a patch in #9 and put it on the jag, counted to 5, and slowly ran it through... nothing on the patch. Dead white!

So... this is actually giving me some "learnafying". Bravo says the Slick 2000 is bo-damn-datious on the black stuff. And Hoppe's "Extreme" is almost the same stuff and almost as fast.

I'm thinking that I may wind up with a first brass brushing with gook remover, and then using a copper remover with jags and nylon brushes, as a cleaning regimen.

I'm gonna try a few things and go with what works well (not necessarly the fastest), and isn't a pain in the ass.

I refuse to use anything that can damage the barrel, so Sweets is out.

I will try the foam stuff... but I hear that it is messy, and a real bitch in gas guns, cuz the foam gets up into the pistons and into the works.

I don't want messy - I gots enough mess in my life as it is ;))

UnPat...

Keep in mind that whatever is in the black stuff, it won't hurt the bore... you are laying it down, and running bullets over it at 100,000 psi, so if it was abrasive, you would loose the bore in five shots.

It is messy, but not abrasive to steel.

The sky is glass clear, and the moon is the size of a silver dollar...

... life is good

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 02:38:39 (ZULU)

I also discovered that bronze brushes leave copper in the bore. I switched to nylon. To clean them after use, I spray them with a can of brake cleaner under high pressure, and replace them frequently. They're cheap, and worrying about the cost of a bore brush, given the cost of ammo, strikes me as not useful.

To clean the barrel, I soak two patches in Montana Extreme and run those through on a wrap jag to loosen up the crud.

Then 10 strokes up and back with the nylon brush soaked in the same. Then two more wet patches on the wrap jag, then dry patch until clean. Repeat as necessary - but on a good barrel cleaned every couple of hundred rounds, it's not necessary.

Gale McMillan expressed the opinion that he had seen more barrels ruined through cleaning than shooting. I haven't his experience, but what I'm doing seems to be working for me.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 03:50:15 (ZULU)

Don't buy cheap optics: A cautionary tale.

I wanted big binos and bought NIB Steiner 15X56 Bighorns (click my name) off eBay for $450ish. They were easily attached to a tripod adapter but the tubes (?) would sag together and wouldn't maintain the same distance apart. Without realizing that the threads that accepted the tripod adapter were cheap-o plastic, I screwed the tripod adapter screw too hard and the binos' threads shattered. The binos fell to the floor and the hinge shattered. The binos were broken in two.

Steiner said the warranty didn't apply and the repair would be $185. I sent the $$. The binos turned out to be beyond repair so they sent new ones.

Last weekend I took them on a scouting trip. It rained. The binos got a LITTLE spray on them. Now there are water droplets in the right tube.

In the very unlikely event that Steiner makes good on the warranty, this $650 POS will stay someplace safe and dry.

In the meantime, I'm going to sell a highly custom Tac-Ord .223 with a Loopy/Premier 4.5X14 LR scope and a Hart barrel for enough to buy binos that were made to actually use.

CDC'
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 10:01:26 (ZULU)

CDC...

Steiner makes really good bins that are professional grade - you will find Steiner bins on the battle field, on ocean racing yachts, and in the worst places on earth.

But, like most high end companies these days, they have a "consumer" line, which is a product line that they may not even manufacture.

This is the stuff for the casual user that wants a "name brand", but doesn't need the guts of the professional line. Kinda like the Porsche "911" that was made by Volkswagen.

Unfortunately, the bins you bought were in the second group.

My Celestrons are bullet proof, and water proof, and the tripod adapter is solid Aluminum, and bullet proof. They can see the moons of Jupiter.

I finely found them (they were in the back of Mary's closet, where I dare not venture) ;)))

Wanna talk... I have the hots for a pair of 30x100s.

... and you won't have to sell your riffle.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 11:24:02 (ZULU)

Catguy: Since I need something I can "quick draw" and need something field luggable, my heart is set on 15X56 Swaro or Leica. The 8X Swaros I've carried for the last ten years have never failed me and Leica is Leica. But we may be able to work something out.

CDC'
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 13:42:20 (ZULU)

I was talking to Bravo yesterday, and he mentioned shooting at targets at one mile (and more) with his 50BMG, and it got me pissed (not at Bravo!!)

What is the gun friendliest state in the lower 48.

In 3 or 4 years, I'm getting out of this liberal shithole.

I'm looking for a state that has NO gun laws, or at least as few as possible... (Vermont is out... too many librals and too much snow).

It needs to be a place where the local fuzz doesn't look at you funny, and call his boss when you want to register a class 3 weapon, or a DD... it'd be nice if he shot class three and DDs himself ;)

Where you can get an explosives license without blowing the governor. In spite of being a trained blaster in the 60's... I can't get a blasting license in Connecticut, cuz they say that they have enough blasters in the state at the moment (the "moment" has been 25+ years :(((

It would be real nice if there was room to actually shoot these toys (like W-I-D-E O-P-E-N S-P-A-C-E-S).

Snow is a bummer, but some snow might be tolerable. There should be no closed season on varmints (Prairie Dogs, 'yotes, chucks, and liberals).

Any suggestions???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 16:04:56 (ZULU)

Lito,

Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Texas, Wyoming, New Mexico. Colorado is filling up with duck-squeezers and tree-huggers.

Duman
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:14:27 (ZULU)

'lito,

I just happen to know where there are some wide open spaces, and the sheriff just happens to like full auto weapons! Come on out!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:22:13 (ZULU)

Catman,

Come to South Dakota. Only problem is it gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter. You can learn to shoot in the wind too!!(HA)

Hope all is well with you!!!

Pat
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:23:33 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)

What the hell have you been up to??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:24:39 (ZULU)

Bobby... your link no workie...

So far, I gots good invites.

What's obvious is... no comments from east of the Mississippi... Hmmmm there's a message in there for the careful reader ;)))

Lemme hear more guys.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 17:30:16 (ZULU)

Lito - WVa isn't too bad.

Bobby - Is it really a 2 hour drive to Oklahoma City and 2.5 hrs to Dallas (that's what Yahoo Maps claims)? Are the schools decent? How about internet access?

How far to the nearest "shopping" venue aka "mall" (wife wants to know)?

My job now officially allows me to telecommute 100% (or so they claim)... the entire continental US just opened it's doors to me.... I think.

medicjim
Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 18:20:04 (ZULU)

KatWaker: OK, Montana has "light" snow (unless you live way up in the mountains or on the downwind side of a fence), but it do get cold....that aside, its the 4th largest state in the Nation and has a population of less than/right around 1,000,000.... its legal to use firearms on nongame animals after dark outside of big game season....and its legal to hunt with Class III weapons if you're of a mind.

There are certain "liberal" enclaves like Missoula and Bozeangeles, but for the most part, veryvery gun friendly...."shall issue" constitutional provision for CCW, and the Sheriffs I know (Silver Bow and Missoula) are real good guys.

Huntin' yotes after dark with a NVD and Suppressor on a '16? CanDo!

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 19:42:02 (ZULU)

'lito,

The state you are looking for is nirvana..But seriously look to the NW us for more lax gun/explosives laws...Don't know for sure how the Unibomber affected some of the states explosives legis..

MT, ID, NV, UT, NE, SD, MO, OK, NM, AZ, all these states are fairly cool on many of the things you desire. Plus theyre large states, so plenty of room to stretch your legs. You want more room, try Alaska, use Russia as a backstop..hah..East of the Mississippi what is Tennessee like? Know they have some good 1K yd ranges down at Oak Ridge..WV is probably a bit of all right too..

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 19:51:15 (ZULU)

Texas is gun-friendly, and getting more so, having just implemented a law allowing handgun carry in a car without a license, as long as the weapon is concealed and you're not a gang member and not engaged in criminal activity.

Carrying long guns in the car is no problem, either.

Lots of room. AND - no state income tax.

Can't speak to explosive licenses.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 19:55:31 (ZULU)

Youz guys are great!!

Came across one of the silliest guns in the world...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZZui1O7Px0

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 20:28:03 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Well...you can cut the driving time to OKC down some..only takes me 1.5 hours to get there from my house and depending on where you are going in Dallas/Ft Worth area, driving time can be anywhere from 2-3 hours. Schools are good here..small country school type environment,and good teachers. We have DSL internet here where I live, and digital cable TV, so we are stepping in high cotton! Lawton, Oklahoma and Wichita Falls, Tx both have nice mall and shopping, although I Prefer WF.Wichita Falls is only 30 miles away vs. Lawton which is 45. Land prices are cheap, along with nice houses in this area.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 21:01:04 (ZULU)

JR...

>"The state you are looking for is nirvana"<

That's not fair - I'm not looking for "nirvana".

I'm willing to compromise.

I'll settle for Utopia!!

;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 21:36:59 (ZULU)

For some reason or another, the Badlands link doesn't like Mozilla. If you've got Explore, open it up and run the link Bobby has posted. Don't want to miss the cool intro.

Otherwise, try this one. (click)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 21:50:45 (ZULU)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Boone

In a similar vein, many folk tales depicted Boone as a man who migrated to more remote areas whenever civilization crowded in on him. In a typical anecdote, when asked why he was moving to Missouri, Boone supposedly replied, "I want more elbow room!" Boone rejected such an interpretation of his life, however. "Nothing embitters my old age," he said late in life, like "the circulation of absurd stories that I retire as civilization advances…."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, September 25, 2007, at 23:57:37 (ZULU)

I think a certain level of civilization is nice. I enjoy being able to find much of what I want in the Wal-Mart about 10 miles away from where we spend much of the year. Electrical power is nice.

On the other hand, some of what passes for civilization is over-rated.

We once lived in a fancy subdivision where one who wanted to paint his or her house had to get approval from the community assocation not just for the color of paint, but for the particular color CODE of a particular manufacturer's paint. Only those on the approved list were acceptable.

That's too frickin' much civilization. And we won't ever again live in a place like that.

I like elbow room, too. I don't want the neighbors telling me what color to paint my house, whether I can put up a tower for my radio antennas, or whether I can burn off my trash or shoot my firearms on my property.

The nearest one is about a half mile away. That's a bit close, but tolerable.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 00:55:43 (ZULU)

Hey Lindy...

You a radio people?? If you already said so, my rum soaked brain forgot it ;)

'lito (K2BK)

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 01:06:08 (ZULU)

de AK5N, albeit inactive on HF at the moment. But that might change at any moment...

Actually, I had my HF gear in storage a couple of years ago, because we were living in an apartment. It burned up when a guy cooking meth in his storage unit started a fire which burned the building to the ground. I haven't replaced it yet - but I'm thinking about it.

I burned out myself on HF by working the Transcontinental Corps in Morse, co-chairing the Disaster Communications Committee of the Houston/Galveston Red Cross chapter, and acting as ARRL Section Emergency Coordinator and in RACES - all at once.

Had to cut that out, and did.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 01:21:00 (ZULU)

Cleaning country,

FWIW, In Volume 1, Number 4 of "tactical Shooter" while it was still afloat, M.L.McPherson wrote an article "How to clean a bore: Or minimizing damage.....". Personally, I think it is one of the best articles I have read on the subject.

Pat II
Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 01:44:46 (ZULU)

Morse is a Murtha Franken bee-autch to learn, but once you go thru all that...

I've been thinking about getting a license for some HF fun. May as well, since I have the hard part done already. Prop-theory is straight forward math, and the art of the bounce is just try-try again simple. Well, that is if'n you have the inclination to configure a slant, dipole, or long wire and play the half and full wave game over n over. I suppose a log periodic would negate most of that...but those TV-looking thangs never did fit in a rucksack.

But I can't imagine comms as being anything but easier from my easy chair...and it sounds fun.

Does the BBC still broadcast news? We used to listen to that when we felt like cranking the old PRC70 batteries for no good reason:)

Bobby: Email in bound.

joe m
Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 03:25:43 (ZULU)

'lito,

Come home to Texas...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 03:51:00 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Splash over....Shot out.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 04:21:44 (ZULU)

Click. Don't blink!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks, U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 05:29:37 (ZULU)

Re: Cleaning Bores

A bit belated, here's my $.02 worth.

Regarding use of brass (bronze?) bristle brushes: after all, the bristles main component is copper, so any "solvent" we use to remove copper from the bore is also going to dissolve part of the brush. Am I right on that, or am I mistaken? That was my comclusion after "wearing out" a brass brush after one attempt at cleaning one bore.

Jack D. Martin
So-Central, WA, US of A - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 07:34:02 (ZULU)

AK5N...

Yup... I probably forgot (it's the Rum soaked brain syndrome ;).

At my last place, I had 60 feet of crank up, tilt-over Aluma tower, and enough HF beams to be a crow roost. The current place is much nicer, but all my antennas and tower sections are on saw horses along the garage. :((

Pat-II

I doubt that anyone has that article... maybe you can summarize it?

Sharon...

Darlin' if I went to Texas, and you was strutin' around in your red fishnet stockings, French slit dress, an' showing those lacy red panties, I wouldn't get anything done ;))

Jack D...

>"Regarding use of brass (bronze?) bristle brushes: after all, the bristles main component is copper, so any "solvent" we use to remove copper from the bore is also going to dissolve part of the brush. Am I right on that, or am I mistaken? That was my conclusion after "wearing out" a brass brush after one attempt at cleaning one bore."<

"Am I right on that, or am I mistaken? "...

... you're mistaken!

While solvents do remove copper, it is the ends that "wear away", making the brush have no ability to scour the bore. To eat them away, it would take weeks in the average bore cleaner.

The standard cleaners don't work fast enough to ruin a brush in one cleaning.

I plugged my 12 grove 300WM barrel, and filled it with #9 yesterday, and I'm letting it soak for a day... I'll see how far I can go, without using a brush (if possible).

This bore cleaning thing is starting to look like a high school science project ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 08:57:41 (ZULU)

"Sharron...

Darlin' if I went to Texas, and you was strutin' around in your red fishnet stockings, French slit dress, an' showing those lacy red panties, I wouldn't get anything done ;))"

I just got that feelin'....... like a quart of Tequila comin' up on an empty stomach...

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 09:21:44 (ZULU)

Travis...

Is this site becoming "Insomniacs anonymous"?

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 09:50:37 (ZULU)

'lito

Easy on tha spellin...

>>>Sharron...

Darlin' if I went to Texas, and you was strutin' around in your red fishnet stockings, French slit dress, an' showing those lacy red panties, I wouldn't get anything done ;))<<<

"Sharron" is Sir Wes' bride, I'm 'Sharon'. Small difference...

>>>I wouldn't get anything done ;))<<< AnyONE...?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 13:53:21 (ZULU)

'lito,

Try this site for demographic info:

http://zipskinny.com/

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The foggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 14:00:55 (ZULU)

Catman,

Still kicking, just busy at work, crime is good. I try to keep up on the DR but don't get much chance to post.

I am still shooting as much as possible. Usually try to get out at least once a week. I have been ringing out my 6.5x55 and its doing well but my load was to hot. It matched my 6.5x284 data to within .5 moa at 900yds so I had to back it down some. Trying to save some barrel wear. I have it around the 260s data now so I think thats where I will stay. Hows old yotebait?? I don't see him post anymore and miss RickB too. Take care and keep your powder dry!!

Pat
Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 15:14:34 (ZULU)

'Litosan,

Should get an answer soon on your 12 groove 30 cal barrel..Got out the little black book, hah...

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 19:02:35 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)...

send me an e-mail. Your e-mail (mrbullet@hotmail) no workie.

I hear that the 'yotes from Wyoming to Texas are damn near rotting from the Mange. I've seen some pathetic pictures that look like Mexican hairless dogs, but uglier!

But the real word has it from an expert that it is the Chupacabras that are coming across the borders with all the illegals. Gotta get that fence up!!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 23:20:45 (ZULU)

>>>But the real word has it from an expert that it is the Chupacabras that are coming across the borders with all the illegals. Gotta get that fence up!!!<<<

Open the season up...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 03:06:27 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Enough about my mother in law. She dropped her coke bottle glasses and got lost.

Met a lucky SOB tonight. At the local indoor range, I noticed a guy's blackhawk, and asked him what he had. He says, "Oh, some guns my uncle gave me." (obviously, he's not a gun guy) Turns out, it's an old Blackhawk, alright. .44 mag. serial number 1911! I nearly shit. (No it wasn't for sale) His uncle also gave him a matched pair of Winchester 94's, the .30-30 and the .22. How come it's always the non-shooters that inherit the cool stuff I'd crawl through a manure pit to get?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 06:07:22 (ZULU)

This cleaning thing is going to make me crazy.

On Tuesday, I plugged the chamber on the 12 grove 300WM and filled the barrel with #9, and let it soak for 24 hours. I figured that would be a good test, since I hadn't cleaned it after I last shot it.

Emptied the bore into the catch/recycle cup, and ran a patch through the barrel, and it came out reddish/purple (No, not rust, dummies, it's stainless!!).

Looked weird, so I quickly ran another wet patch through it, and a trace of the same goofie color.

Now, I may not be the best barrel cleaner int he world, but i have cleaned a feww barrels.... and I have NEVER seen a color like this come out of a barrel.

The bullets were 190 SMKs, powder was H-4350SC and H-4831, and primers were CCI BR-2s... nothing unusual.

Anybody have any thoughts? Anyone ever see a patch come out kinda red/purple?

'lito (going slightly nutz).

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 10:52:44 (ZULU)

Sleepy heads check this bag out !!

http://www.kifaru.net/regu_combo.htm

Regards,

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 10:52:45 (ZULU)

Steve,

For $5-700, that thing better make biscuits and blow me every morning.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 11:07:37 (ZULU)

Lito - just a guess, but mercury oxides I think come out red sometimes...I've never seen anything like that come out of a rifle barrel.

medicjim
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 13:59:13 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

It ain't Mercury... there hasn't been ANY Mercury in cartridges in over 70 years. In fact, back in the old days, cartridge boxes used to say "Non-mercuric, non-corrosive" on the front label. (The non-corrosive part was because they had done away with chlorate primers that ate barrels up in 60 minutes).

I'm coming up with a lot of "theories" about this, and the more things I try, the more theories I get.

I "think" that the red/purple stuff is powder/primer fouling after it has been attacked by #9 for some 24-30 hours... and it probably doesn't need that much time.

Now here's what's funny. When I ran the patch through the barrel yesterday, JUST red/purple stuff was on it... no blue/green at all... not even a whisper or a hint.

So I left the gun in the cradle, and ran a wet patch through it. This morning, when I ran a patch through the barrel... it came out real heavy dark blue, with only a hint of the red/purple?.

So... why no blue after 24 hours, when the #9 was soaking in the barrel, then a bunch of blue after 12~ish hours with just a wipe of #9 on a patch??

Of course that's a rhetorical question (for those that live in Rio Linda, that's means it's not expected to be answered).

Damn, I wish I had access to an analytical chemist.

But I'm gonna try the foamy stuff, and Hoppe's "Extreme", and what else I can find that doesn't smell bad... and nylon brushes.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 15:28:54 (ZULU)

Lito,

You're exploring new territory. I've never seen red/purple, though some of the Cu fouling patches I've seen have been deep, royal blue.

Is is possible that the Hoppe's #9, the minute amount exposed to air, experienced a chemical change, like oxidation, and became deep orange bordering on red?

I can't think of a component of stainless that gives rise to an oxidation state of 'red', 'orange', 'brown', other than iron. Vanadium has several states, some are blue/purple. I'll have to google chromium, it's pretty interesting.

Have you done this '24-hour soak' on barrels in the past? With what results?

Duman
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 15:52:56 (ZULU)

Another SWAG at the red color (Cu2O) Cuprous Oxide

http://www.shyamchemicals.com/chem07.htm

medicjim
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 16:23:45 (ZULU)

Duman...

I have soaked barrels in the past, but only AFTER I hit the barrels with a bronze brush. What I HAVE learned for sure (so far), is that bronze brushes do leave copper in the bore. Not a lot, but enough to give the patch a blue color. So after a while (maybe the first brushing) you are chasing your tail if you are brushing and patching, then brushing cuz you see blue on the patch... that's a fact, Jack!!

"maybe"... the solution is nylon/Aluminum brushes, so the only blue you can see is what's rellly in the barrel from the bullets???

Anyway... the barrel soaks in the past have all been contaminated by the first brushing, so they wouldn't show this red/purple, cuz it's kinda faint, even on the first patch.

Each time I try something, I get a result that I didn't expect.

I gots quite a few filthy riffles, so I can run tests for a while. ;))

This cleaning thing is something that I (and probably others) did cuz we learned it that way... or we do it a certain way because the company told us, or we read it in "Guns & Blamo", or some "Guru" told us to do it a certain way.

I don't know why I never heard of the red/purple stuff before, but no one has mentioned it EVER.

So far, all I do know, is that I'm going to change the way I use brushes in the future... definitely a lot less, maybe I'll switch to a synthetic, like nylon.

I think not brushing any more than necessary is a good thing... though, so far, I'm not convinced that there's a chemical only "solution" (a pun, son) to this barrel cleaning thing.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 16:31:27 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

Yeah. Could be.

I think I'll hit up Bravo for some chemical analysis on dead patches ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 16:33:21 (ZULU)

OK...

Here's what I now know on my last barrel.

The barrel is a top of the line 12 groove, custom barrel. It might matter, or might not, cuz top of the line barrels are polished (lapped). A smoother barrel might make cleaning easier (it kinda makes sense).

Anyway... 24 hour soak in #9. First patch had a strong tint of red/purple, 360° around the center of the patch.

Barrel was patched with a wet patch, and left 12~ish hours.

Second patch (wet) had very faint red/purple, and strong deep blue 360° around the center of the patch.

Third wet patch (two hours later) had a few thin blue lines on one side of the patch

Forth wet patch (two hours later) was dead white.

So... barrels can be cleaned chemically (I think). I wish I had some of the nylon brushes to try for a final pass, but they are on order, and won't be here for a week.

I think the 24-30 hour time period can be shortened, but I don't know how much.

I'm convinced (for today ;)), that the powder fouling is not the big time taker.

I don't know why the copper didn't show UNTIL the second patch. Maybe the copper dissolver in #9 is aerobic, and the reaction won't start in anaerobic conditions??

At least I have the 300WM M-24 clean and up on the wall. ;))))

And I gots more filthy riffles ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 17:11:59 (ZULU)

On barrels and cleaning. Metals are microscopically porous. Each time a a bullet goes down a barrel really fast with lots of heat pushing it, microscopic bits of copper get driven into the steel.

By leaving solvents and other cleaning agents in the barrel for a long time, it has a chance to leach the microscopic bits of copper out of the steel.

Is it really necessary to get a barrel pristine? Some barrels shoot better 'seasoned'.

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, Kalifornia, USA!!! - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 17:51:14 (ZULU)

Trajan Aurelius...

>" On barrels and cleaning. Metals are microscopically porous. Each time a a bullet goes down a barrel really fast with lots of heat pushing it, microscopic bits of copper get driven into the steel."<

That's not true... the "microscopic Pores" fill on the first pass... after that, they offer a copper surface to the next bullet... and because of galling, that surface changes on EACH SHOT!

>"Is it really necessary to get a barrel pristine? Some barrels shoot better 'seasoned'."<

I think you have missed the whole point of this thing.

First - the hell with microscopic pores, they are a thousand times smaller than the tool marks that even the best barrels have.

Second - the rubbing of soft metals against each other, under heavy pressure, causes them to "gall"... this means that they make small little odd shaped balls of copper that change position EVERY shot. If the barrel has a bunch of copper on it, and a copper bullet comes sliding down the rifling, it will change the pattern of the copper... and it will change the pattern EVERY shot.

And Martha says "That's a very bad thing".

Third... and MOST important - this is about learning. I know that really rattles some people's cage, but I love to learn, and love to pass on what I learn to others.

IF it troubles you, then don't read my posts, cuz they're mostly about learning and teaching gun stuff... or about Rum, lime jooce, and Women critters (which I know absolutely nothing about, but keep going back for more)!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 18:55:07 (ZULU)

Lito,

"..learning and teaching gun stuff... or about Rum, lime jooce, and Women critters!"

Well, if you figure out the "Women critters", let me know. I recall someone saying "Asking me about women is like asking a fish how to ride a bicycle", which describes me pretty well.

medicjim - good thinking. It raises another question, though, and that is "why haven't we seen this before?" Also, what is the required temperature to create Cu2O? Where's Bravo?

Duman
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 19:24:39 (ZULU)

Duman wrote - "medicjim - good thinking. It raises another question, though, and that is why haven't we seen this before? Also, what is the required temperature to create Cu2O? Where's Bravo?"

I'm guessing it would require enery in some form and less than abundant oxygen...LOL

I would also like to point out that the sun is bright and the sky is blue...

medicjim
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 19:31:47 (ZULU)

Traj: Don't get wrapped around an axle on Lito's curiousity. The way I see it, Lito is curious about stuff that is far removed from what an intermediate shooter needs to worry about---mostly cuz we tread the ground he covered shortly after the last ice age. So the stuff we mere mortals worry over or get curious about was probably invented by Lito following his handing the Chinese his secret recipe for blackpowder.

But, once he has in'vestigatored this topic, he will have a pronouncement on the subject that will be of use for the general shooting public...

By hook and crook, I rehabed the shoulder to draw my bow. At least enough to tune it up and hit within my 4" circles at known ranges from 15-40 yards. This took a bunch of time (day after day), cuz when I started, I was good for maybe five arrows, and now I get sore after about 15.

As soon as it gets cool...I'se gonna fill my archery deer tag (it is too warm just yet). I have an Earn-a-Buck leftover sticker from last year--so I can take whatever walks by:) Meantime, I need to lure the turkeys out of my corn. Or go lay in it and wait for a row crossing and take the snapshot...of course, that is how ya end up with a 15 pounder or a cat. Heheh. They'll come out eventually. Both are LONG seasons:))

I'm shooting a matthews MQ32 with Beman carbon 50/70s (skinny suckers). Good god, this thing drives 'em fast! My old Bear and fat-ass aluminum arrows is now seriously unimpressive. I have a helluva time finding my "short shots" as they will enter the ground right up to the nocks with about a 10 degree incidence. You'd think they'd skip---but they just burrow right into the sandy, hard-packed soil. Wow. Well, thankfully I got the pins set before i was out too much money--and the lost arrows can't hide from Mr. roto-tiller in the spring! BTW, this is about as light and short a Bow as I would want. It is forgiving once you get used to it..but I can't imagine shooting a Drenalin; that little thing compares to the MQ like my MQ compares to my old Bear.

joe m
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 20:07:30 (ZULU)

Lito

the reason we havent seen the red/purple thing before is that, until now, nobody's scrubbed a barrel until it's bruised and bleeding.....LOL

Mark D
London, UK - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 20:46:47 (ZULU)

Mark D...

You made me laugh!!

;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 20:56:39 (ZULU)

Chemistry country

I seem to remember from somewhere in my dim and distant past a red colour being produced in a reaction between nitrates (or nitrites?) and sulphur compounds. But I can't remember quite what they were and my notes have long since disappeared, but that might steer your quest in the right direction. Seems to me you'd have both in gunpowder residue and something in the cleaning agent could easily provide the means to produce the reaction.

I could be wrong but I seem to associate it with bacteria and maybe even Mr Pasteur. Sorry, it was a long time ago.....

I'll go back to lurking now......

Mark D
London, UK - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 21:27:30 (ZULU)

Mark D - Methinks you were right the first time. It's blood!

Duman
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 21:37:59 (ZULU)

Rhodopseudomonas or Serratia marcescens??

Of note... back in medic school, pseudomonas was notable in that it had been isolated growing INSIDE vials of anti-biotic!!...this is some damn tough stuff. Apparently, the rhodo variant will consume sulfites and produce a red pigment....

I'm no expert...so consider this just one more 'punt' to over-complicate and challenge Lito's quest for the truth.

medicjim
Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 21:49:28 (ZULU)

Catshooter, Joe M and others. I think I do "get" the cleaning exercise. I have been reading, and learning, from the Roster for along time, maybe 1997. So I know how 'thorough' y'all are. Some of the lessons learned kept me alive when I deployed. Thanks Joe.

The theory of metal being porous is stuck in my head after an explanation by a nuke sub Sailor about why sodium cooled reactors are a bad idea. It seems the sodium makes it's way through the metal and, being radioactive, contaminates the workspace. I was thinking that copper would keep getting pushed deeper into the metal in the bore. That's the Chaos Theory of Cranial Relativity at work.

I shoot a Ruger M-77 with a heavy barrel and a 3x9 scope. It's a .308. I shoot Blackhawk 168g moly's. If I clean it too thoroughly, it takes 15-20 rounds to settle down into the group it was shooting before. I have better luck with my Spanish Mauser, in 7.62mm (all matching serial numbers) and red-dot scope on it.

I have not yet reached the potential of the rifle, mostly because I am still learning about shooting after my Dad taught me in 1970. I do keep records of how I shoot, thanks to the Roster. The best shooting drill I learned was to put a .308 case on the 100 yard line and try to hit it. I do much better when it's at about 75 yards. Best shot so far, 545 yards in wind gusting to 15mph at 2 o'clock at the Sierra Vista Range. The sound of the round hitting the rock was - satisfying.

No doubt by the time we sew up this thread, we'll have an answer about the best way to get squeaky clean.

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, Kalifornia, USA !!! - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 22:34:21 (ZULU)

Say lito',I've got a bottle of that Hoppe's #9 in front of me now

and they have a statement on the bottle NOT to cork up the bore.

Does this stuff need some oxygen to do it's work ???????

Also what part if any would Zinc play in the pretty colors

you get ??

The jacket material is not pure Copper but an alloy with about 5% Zn.

Better living through Chemistry !

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, September 27, 2007, at 22:43:22 (ZULU)

Markwell: If you are out there I'd like to ask your opinion on a couple of matters.

CDC'
Friday, September 28, 2007, at 00:49:22 (ZULU)

Lito

Now I'm back home I did some searching and found this. ( the internet is a wonderful thing)

Red pigment related - I was thinking of Prontosil one of the first antibacterial agents which was derived from azo dyes start reading here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prontosil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azo_dye

that should send you to sleep...... it always worked for me when I was at college.

Mark D
London, UK - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 01:10:57 (ZULU)

AR15 maintenance:

One source I've read recommends replacing the bolt gas rings every 3000 rds.

http://www.westcoasttraining.com/OperatorMaint.pdf

Concur or alternate recommendation?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 01:35:58 (ZULU)

Uh oh... we're in trouble now. Ol' Louie Pasture is in the mix.

Ok, I did another riffle, and learned more stuff (I think!)

Tonight, I started (and finished) a 308 M-24. This is the riffle that shot the 0.46" group at 405 yards that I shamelessly post every chance I get (and in case you haven't seen it in the last two days, go here ;)))))

http://www.snipercountry.com/images/Pablito-M24-0.46-target.jpg

Now, I decided not to soak it for 24 hours like before, cuz I already did that, and because I want to find two things... the way to a perfectly clean barrel, and the ability to do it in less that three lifetimes ;)

Also, I apologize for what appears as random testing methodology, but if I was to use the classical "scientific method" of testing, I would only change one variable at a time, and repeat the "experiments" on the same barrel, with the same amount of shots fires, etc, and spend the next four years at this project.

But, in spite of rumors to the contrary, I DO have a life, other than cleaning riffles, so I'm taking a few short cuts, and deriving as much information as possible from each set.

OK... here's what I did with the 308 M-24. I ran a wet patch through the barrel. It came out with dark gray streaks in a 360° circle.

That was expected, sorta.

Ten minutes later, I ran another wet patch through the barrel, and got gray and some blue (but not as much as I expected).

I did another wet patch, and got the same thing... I was a little disappointed :((

So with great scientific aplomb, and all the methodology and techniques of Dr Frankenstein, I got bored with getting patches with a little gray and a little blue, so I hit the sucka with a brush - but this time, only 3 passes (back and forth is "one pass").

I ran a patch through the bore, and it came out filthy... Hmmmm looks familiar!!

So I plugged the barrel and filled the bore with #9.

This time, I let it sit for 30 minutes.

I poured it out and patched it, and voila, it was dead white clean.

Ok... what do I "think" I learned.

1 - There is a powder/primer fouling, whose removal needs (or is helped by) physical shoving with a brush.

I DON'T know if a bronze brush is necessary... a nylon brush might do it just as well (tune in later when I get nylon brushes).

2 - I now know for sure now, that bronze brushes leave a lot of "dirty" looking crap on the patch, convincing you that the barrel is dirty, when it is really just the brush residue left on the bore.

So maybe just brushing at the beginning is necessary, then solvents can do the rest (I think!!).

Anyway... I'm getting closer - it went from dirty to dead steel clean in one hour, instead of 30+ hours.

I am solidly convinced (kinda, a little) that the red/purple stuff is what is left after the chemicals in #9 works on the powder/primer residue for a long time.

This time, there was no hint of the red/purple stuff. It probably came out with the brushing.

Nite nite...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 02:16:06 (ZULU)

'lito-san,

Please keep us posted on your cleaning results. I - for one - certainly find them of interest. Some of your conclusions I have suspected - dirty barrels from brushes, etc...

How goes the battle for/about/over Ruggus Rattus?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 03:44:41 (ZULU)

Sharon... (with ONE "R")

>"'lito-san, Please keep us posted on your cleaning results. I - for one - certainly find them of interest. Some of your conclusions I have suspected - dirty barrels from brushes, etc..."<

I will... I'm learning more than I thought I would.

>"How goes the battle for/about/over Ruggus Rattus?"<

It's taken an interesting turn.

A year ago, everyone was in a hurry to get it done with, cuz his schooling was being hurt. And I was in a hurry too.

Last winter, the "Guardian ad Litem" (court appointed guardian), said that we should have Ruggus Rattus and both parents checked out by a court shrink - I thought that was fine.

So this guy gets appointed, and he seems OK. But the process drags on and on and on and on and on and on and.....

He still hasn't handed in his report, but word has it that he is going to recommend that the Rat is sent off to boarding school (That's a big "FUCK YOU" in my book).

Since I don't have the money, and she claims that she is running a deficit of minus $300 a WEEK (she should get a job with the federal government)... then the only option is a "state boarding school" - we all know what that means. They are called reform schools elsewhere... and the little guy (all 6'2" of him), has never done a damn thing wrong.

So this is confusing to me.

The court has an investigator, and she says that mommy is a congenital liar and lives a dysfunctional life, and the Rat MUST be assigned to me... but I hear that the shrink's opinion is 60% of the judge's opinion :((

But here's the deal.

They have fucked around so long that this school year is toast, so I'm not in a hurry any more.

I spoke to two lawyers that know the system, and they say that the shrink knows she is an unfit mother, but he can't "bring himself to say it in court"... it's that ol' "Mommies are nice, and daddy's are icky" crap. So his solution is just to remove the child, take his $14,000 (yup, fourteen thousand dollars!!!), and run with his tail between his legs.

I also spoke to someone I know who works in the court system with child abusers, and she saw the court papers, and laughed, saying don't waste your time, just wait it out, and file for emancipation.

Man, you wanna talk about a group that needs minority status in this country, it ain't the blacks, it's the fathers.

Anyway... we are still four or five months away from a trial, and we are "Ta-ta"... four months away from his 16th birthday.

On his 16th birthday, he can walk into any court in the state, and file a set of papers for "Emancipation" and it's over. There will be some hearings out of formality, but she has no chance.

So the plan is now to stall, and when he is 16, just walk away from the whole fuckin' thing.

Meanwhile... I am getting the evidence together to file criminal charges against the first bunch, which includes my ex.

I think she will do time - I have hard evidence of witness tampering, conspiracy, perjury, and a bunch more... all felonies with one year mandatory minimum sentencing..

That's where it is... it has been one hellova journey.

A lotta people say I should become a lawyer after what I have learned, and because I am beating them 85% to 90% of the time, and she has three of the top lawyers in the area... but I can't stomach it. It is the dirtiest system I have ever encountered in my life, and I have run into some dirty shit... this takes the prize.

I can't change it, it's too big and too corrupt... and I can't work in it the way it is.

Plus I'm too old for this shit! ;)))

I wanna fix my airboat, and shoot my guns!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 04:25:14 (ZULU)

lito;

If you can tolerate the occassional hurricane, take a look at the central Gulf Coast. Anything between Panama City FL to Gulfport MS is quite comfortable and still a little slower paced than much of the rest of the country. I live in the very middle of this, Mobile,AL. One of my best friends is from Buffalo, he said if he ever gets divorced he's moving back here.

We get about an inch of snow every eight years or so.

Anyway, Alabama has the fewest gun laws of all the states, look in the ATF state laws guide book. In the last governor's race both candidates were approved by the NRA.

In Mobile, if you want to carry concealed, you have to be 23 and have a clean record. You go to the sheriff's office and fill out an application and give them $20. They run your name through the courthouse computer and give you the permit. It takes about 15 to 20 minutes. You can carry in any city/county in Alabama and in states that have recipriocity aggrements. Renewal is by mail at $20 per year.

We have a club about 40 minutes west of Mobile in Moss Point, MS. It has 600 and 100 yard ranges as well as 50 yard pistol line and 200 yard rifle line. We host F-Class, HP, rimfire silhouettes, military surplus, IBS benchrest, black powder cartridge rifle matches as well as NRA qualifications, machine gun shoots and long range clinics.

www.pascagouladcm.com

What do you do for a trade? I'm sure there will be something compatable around here somewhere.

LATER

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 10:33:00 (ZULU)

Trajan...

>"The theory of metal being porous is stuck in my head after an explanation by a nuke sub Sailor about why sodium cooled reactors are a bad idea. It seems the sodium makes it's way through the metal and, being radioactive, contaminates the workspace."<

Methinks this is a (sub)urban myth.

I once had a Norton Manx moto-bicycle - a very, very fast, 500cc single cylinder engine with B-I-G valves.

They were Sodium cooled - that is to say, they were hollow, and had Sodium in them, with some empty space (in vacuum). The sodium was a liquid when the engine was running (melts below the boiling point of water). The liquid Sodium sloshed around in these huge valves, and carried the heat out FAST.

Back in the good old days, when military airplanes had REAL engines, with propellers, pistons and spark plugs... the high performance fighters had Sodium filled valves. It was state of the art for engines that needed to breath, and valves that needed to be cooled.

The Sodium never escaped from the valves. It would be easy to tell, as sodium immediately forms NaOH on contact with air, and that is a white slimy stuff that is hugely corrosive, which then immediately forms Na2CO3, which is a white crusty stuff, and won't go anyplace... and it would be seen by anyone that looked at the engine, cuz the valves were exposed, as were the hairpin coil springs.

Same with a reactor... if the Sodium migrated through the metal, the coils, pipes, and whatever, would covered with a white crusty stuff and it could NOT go unnoticed.

Sodium is a great coolant.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 10:48:42 (ZULU)

My bore cleaning has been: Scrub with brush...solvents for residue...decon/ dry....switch to copper removing. All but the very first step is done with jags and patches. I do not track this per se--but some guns need more of particular steps than others, as we all know.

A late as a year ago, I never minded cleaning guns. It was usually a social occasion in the unit. And to some extent, teaching Blake the assembly, disassembly and care of weapons had a carry over effect of making "cleaning chores" not entirely distasteful.

But now that Blake is older, I'm retired, and no one comes by to clean my guns with me---I find I hate this stuff:))

I am all for the easier ways!

Joe M
Friday, September 28, 2007, at 13:48:23 (ZULU)

Lito,

"They were Sodium cooled - that is to say, they were hollow, and had Sodium in them, with some empty space (in vacuum)."

I would love to see that manufacturing process. I'll bet those valves were pricey.

Duman
Friday, September 28, 2007, at 16:41:38 (ZULU)

Duman...

You betcha they were pricey. The space in them was so the Sodium could get the heat at the bottom of the valve, and then slush up the stem to dump the heat through the stem and into the block/head... kinda like a small circulating heat exchanger built right into the valve.

Aircraft engines have them too.

I have Sodium filled valves in the Lycoming 320 ci engine in my airboat.

>"1. Continental engines have solid stem valves, while Lycoming engines have, mostly, sodium filled valve stems, and..."<

Do a Google search on "Sodium filled valves"... and read up on them.

It's very interesting, and not well known (you can impress all the girls at the office ;)

Jody...

Thanks for the invite, but I have three serious allergies. Floods, Hurricanes, and tornadoes.

I ain't never gonna come home and find my whole life spread all over the state, or everything just plain wiped out... I don't have enough life left to start all over again from scratch.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, September 28, 2007, at 16:53:51 (ZULU)

Sodium filled valves- IH used to use those in their schoolbus engines. At the time, a Chevy exhaust valve was about $4, an IH $23.

'Lito-you could always build one of those underground energy efficient dwellings. You know....like the ones Albert Speer built in Normandy:))))))

BTW-beware the statute of limitations on the Wicked Witch of the Far Norths misdeeds.

WR Moore
Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 01:01:58 (ZULU)

WR...

Statutes here are 6 years.... I gots lots of time, she doesn't.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 01:04:20 (ZULU)

Click. These guys are trying to figure out the same gun cleaning stuff you guys are.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 05:37:08 (ZULU)

Joe,

I know whatcha mean. All these neat guns, and nobody else here gives a shit. I'm starting to think my stepson's a fruit, I despise all my remaining male relatives, and my body's too tore up to do my "grab a rifle and pack, then disappear for a month" thing.

On the bright side, I think my wife's starting to inderstand that I go to the indoor range more for the support group aspect than anything else. (although I DO shoot a few hundred rounds while I'm there!)

'Lito,

DO NOT let the boy go to one of those fucking warehouses. I was in one from 16-18, and it sucks BIG TIME. They tell you that if you're good, you can date, go to movies, etc., like a normal kid. They fail to mention you have to blow everyone that works there, AND their dog. I only saw one kid pull that off, and he was the biggest kiss-ass I ever saw. (he later shot off his toe, playing gangsta)

In short, they thoroughly fuck up everyone's self esteem, and pretty much MAKE some kids into criminals. Fortunately for me, I was big enough to whip everyone there when I arrived. (The other kids thought I worked there for the first couple days.) If it comes down to it, put him on a bus, and have a buddy sneak him into Canada.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 10:05:39 (ZULU)

Travis...

HA! - The boys over at the Arms Locker think we're confused???

HEY GUYS AT THE ARMS LOCKER... we've been confused for 10+ years! It's a normal condition over here ;)))

We're just taking a hard look at cleaning and the myths that surround it.

>"I'm starting to think my stepson's a fruit, I despise all my remaining male relatives..."<

I hear that... Jase' is turning out to be a cool guy.

One of his "friends" asked him, "Who do you think is cuter, me or...", and Jase' said, "Hey asshole, Girls are cute, you're not!!"

He's only 15 1/2, but he has a quiet strength about him. A few years ago, I told him I was sorry that he had to go through this shit, and he said, "It's OK dad... If I learn about it now, I won't have to make bigger mistakes later, so it OK."

I've been teaching him about life the way he will hear about it, and about life the way it really is. For example, I tell him about the politically correct crap he'll hear about girls/women being the same as men, and I tell him that women are really not the same. He knows that women have the right to be whatever they want, but he also knows that he has the right to pick the ones that please him (mentally and physically) to his own tastes. And he knows that he doesn't have to put up with crap or rudeness in the name "feminism".

Last night, I made some killer burgers and we were eating out on the porch after dark, and he said, "Daddy, it would be really nice if just you and I could live somewhere like Texas or Arizona, without anyone else! It would be cool to have neighbors, maybe a mile away or something like that. We could shoot off the back porch!"

It has been a full-time battle to keep the "Politically correct" and "Girly-Foo" shit from the schools, separated from reality. At 15 1/2, he already knows... what the school (the newspaper, the TV, etc) says, may not be the truth. He knows that teachers lie, and that they don't always know what they are teaching. He knows that people in power have agendas. He knows to evaluate what someone says, by looking at "where they're coming from". And, Mang... he knows the court system isn't clean.

That guy is well grounded... better than most grown men I meet.

He has no interest in multi-color hair dos, shopping (or shopping malls), or "In style" clothes. He thinks Brittany Speers and the rest of that bunch are assholes, and he has no interest in the Hollywood set.

His values about right and wrong are crystal clear... he doesn't lie, cheat, or steal.

He likes camping, shooting, fly tying, fishing, blowing stuff up, Harley Davidsons, Hooters (restaurants and body parts), nekid women... he's just a plain American kid, 1950's style. (He inherited it from his dad ;).

I could have 20 more just like him, at the same time, and it would be a walk in the park.

Am I proud of him... Naw, he's just a plain kidlet. 'merican style.

;)))

As to those schools... no worry mate. We have it made.

It's now like a basketball game, where you have a one point lead and you're at the end of the second half, and you just got the ball, and there's 26 seconds left on the clock. You don't want to take a chance on loosing, you just want to keep things like they are for 26 seconds.

So for us, it's just a matter of doing some "shuck and jive" footwork in the court house, putting up lotsa chicken shit motions that have to be heard and decided on, "blinding them with foot work" and running out the clock.

On Feb 16th, 2008, we file papers in New Britain court, and he grabs what he needs out of her house, we leave notarized sets of papers at my and her police stations, to be posted on the day board, so she can't claim "missing persons" or "kidnapping", and its over.

The next day, I enroll him in the local school, and life is good.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 12:52:55 (ZULU)

'lito,

Kidlet and situation sound good! Finally...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 13:41:29 (ZULU)

Lito: Most Fathers would think that the "hard part" of the divorce-custody-raising the kid thing is the legal poo-poo. But the hardest part is keeping the kid straight while the Mom begins using the child as an emotional nuclear bomb against you.

It sounds like you defused that bomb, and did all things right with your boy.

That is the only "win" that counts.

Acid to clean a firearm??? At that point, I would have to kick myself hard in the ass and go buy a new one as punishment for my stupidity (for letting corrosion get that far in the first place). Since I haven't had to deal with this problem, I wouldn't know what is possible---but my first inquiry would be in those electral current de-oxidation processes, along the lines of what they are trying on the CSS Hunley. It would have to be a serious artifact for me to bother with any of this at all! I learned years ago, with navel jelly, what acid does to a beer can.

Hey, did anyone else collect beer cans in their youth? In the 70s, this was fairly big...and talk about PC gone awry: Today, a kid would violate "open container laws" and deliquency codes if he tried this same stuff:)) I had thousands of cans--no two the same.

Nickel bullets? Not so far fetched: The ruskies made some hard-assed coatings on a few 7.62x54s in an effort to penetrate armor. One looked for all the world like it was chromed.

Morgue and I did not read ruskie, so we never did figure these out beyond the basic color code "AP" designation---but we knew that it probably wouldn't do the bores any good just on sight:))

Joe M
Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 15:16:29 (ZULU)

Gentlemen: What is the best anti-fog product?

CDC'
Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 20:14:28 (ZULU)

CDC: I always used rain-x or spit:)) But neither was entirely satisfactory.

Recommendations: I am looking for a hard polymer paint or laminate to put on my wood bench top. Anyone have any suggestions?

Joe M
Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 20:22:19 (ZULU)

CDC, Glycerin Soap.

Rub a thin film on wipe it off.

Good to go.

Available at any GOOD pharmacy.

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 20:26:06 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

You might want to try Formica or something similar. It worked just fine for a bar top and also my reloading bench. I used MinWax clear polyurethane on my current bar; but I don't know how it would hold up to anything other than alcohol.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 20:40:57 (ZULU)

Joe:

I used two coats of polyurethane varnish as the finish for the top of my reloading bench, applied on top of plywood. No regrets many years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, September 29, 2007, at 22:06:00 (ZULU)

CDC',

Scuba shops carry anti-fog spooge for masks. A gel called 'Sea Gold'. A few drops, rub-on, good to go. ~$5/1.5oz. Should last years.

JoeM,

I used a double coat of polyurethane on wood, for reloading bench, and it's held up very well. I'm not as severe as using naval jelly and such, I think a more chemical resistant surface would be in order.

Note: Spit works ok to keep scuba masks from fogging. Be sure NOT to have eaten trail mix any time prior to spitting in mask. :8-o

Duman
Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 01:10:55 (ZULU)

Any updates on the Sniperquest? Anyone?

SFC Pete Carpentier JR
C.C., TX, USA - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 01:11:10 (ZULU)

"Note: Spit works ok to keep scuba masks from fogging. Be sure NOT to have eaten trail mix any time prior to spitting in mask. :8-o "

Duman: LMAO -- I had just eaten some trail mix before reading your note above -- that also applies to laptop screens...

Take care all,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 04:07:33 (ZULU)

CDC,

If you want glyerin soap, go to a saddle shop. You'll get WAY more for way less than at the pharmacy or some boutique. Fiebings brand. Saddle soap is actually glycerin. We use it to prep bull ropes, and it comes in a really big stick.

Joe M.,

What's a steel Schlitz can worth? I found one under my house. Also found steel Gerber baby food cans!

For good workbench tops, I've been considering the epoxy stuff they sell for garage floors.

Duman,

You use Naval jelly as a wood finish?

All,

What's Lapua once fired .308 brass worth? I'm fixing to get a pile of it. Anyone need some?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 09:22:04 (ZULU)

Travis...

I would guess that 20 to 25 cents for the Lapua would fair if it's clean and ready to go.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 10:01:44 (ZULU)

*****************************SPEW ALERT******************************

My wife sent me this:

The next time you see a little old lady with shaky hands, you'll remember this story:

A little old lady, well into her eighties, slowly enters the front door of a sex shop. Obviously very unstable on her feet, she wobbles the few feet across the store to the counter. Finally arriving at the counter and grabbing it for support, stuttering, she asks the sales

clerk: "Dddooo youuuu hhhave dddddiilllldosss?"

The clerk, politely trying not to burst out laughing, replies: "Yes we do have dildos. Actually we carry many different models."

The old woman then asks: "Dddddoooo yyyouuuu ccaarrryy AAA pppinkk onnee, tttenn inchessss lllong aaandd aabboutt ttwoo inchesss ththiickk..aaand rrunns by bbaatteries?

The clerk responds, "Yes we do."

She asks: "Ddddooo yyoooouuuu kknnnoooww hhhowww tttooo ttturrrnnn ttthe ssunoooffabbitch offffff ?"

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 10:14:06 (ZULU)

Joe

You got the top of your bench built yet? If not, I went to the Dura-Form Company in Madison and bought a 4'x8'x1&1/8" sheet of cement form that concrete contractors use it's about 32 ply and both outer plys are hard plastic. I think i paid 3.00 a square foot for it but it's worth it. You can get scrape or shorter pieces for less. If you want there phone# lat me know.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 11:41:16 (ZULU)

Man bitten on tongue by pet rattlesnake (with pictures): http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/news/14142315/detail.html

Psycho bites off (and swallows) pieces of his ex and her new husband: http://www.wnbc.com/slideshow/news/14174388/detail.html

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 12:25:22 (ZULU)

Anti fog stuff. I've recently tried "fogtech" and was very impressed.

Works fine in sustained misty rain which I find is usually the biggest problem. Haven't used it in a heavy downpour yet but it stopped the usual front lens fogging from barrel heat and water in the front sunshade tube.

Didn't get on with the glycerene type fixes as I found they blurred the sight picture too much.( maybe I was doing it wrong...)

Mark D
London, UK - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 13:28:12 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Antelope season opened yesterday. Filled one of my tags early and will likely go out later in the week to see about fillin the other. Life is good.

Lito: The summary of the article goes something like this: Cleaning comes down to three methods, 1) Physical abrasives 2) Chemical 3)Reverse electoplating. Then the author writes about techniques of each method he uses and favors and things that can damage your rifle bore as well. If your interested I can probably figure out a way to get you a copy of the article, but much of it covers territory you have likely been through.

Pat II
Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 16:24:57 (ZULU)

Pat II

I would like to see the article. There might be stuff in there that I haven't tried.

Can you mail me a xerox? If so, e-mail me and I'll give you my address.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 17:19:58 (ZULU)

Engine Country.

On Soduim filled exhaust valves, Cummins has been using soduim filled valves in there Heavy-Duty and High-Horsepower engines for sometime. In the 90's they using soduim filled valves in both the intake and exhuast valves.

Now back to Snipercountry. Does anyone have any updates on the SniperQuest match?

SFC Pete Carpentier JR
C.C., TX, USA - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 19:06:32 (ZULU)

SNIPERQUEST...What a SHOOT!! Fun started at 0800 hours during the safety/match briefing. Shooters were advised that a Electromagnetic Pulse Weapon had been detonated in the atmosphere above Ft. Sill, and ALL electronic items were knocked out of commission. This included Battery operated wind meters, palm pilots, laser range finders, etc. After the safety brief contestants moved to the field for a Land Navigation exercise and then the shooting fun began. A total of 16 events were held during SniperQuest 07...Events such as Deep Strike, Cold Bore at 600 with immediate followup shots at 200 and 100 yards into a 1.5 MOA target, Positional without slings, and 7 different ranges of Unknown Distance Targets with at least 7 different directions of wind , ranging from 350 to 950 yards, to just name a few of the events.

Congratulations to the winners:

1st Place Team 1st Place Individual

Jim Clark Jeff Badley

Jon Norwood 2nd Place Individual

2nd Place Team Jim Clark

Jeff Badley 3rd Place Individual

Chase Treslor Preston Pritchett

3rd Place Team

Preston Pritchett

Wade Stuteville

Winner of the DPMS Panther rifle donated by DPMS was Aaron Vancamp, a new shooter that was shooting his first competition.

BadLands is honored to hold this event here, and the staff and I look forward to next years!

I want to thank all the sponsors that donated to the prize table: DPMS, SWFA, Lou Ann Robinson, Forresters, Brigade Armory, Surgeon Rifles, OTIS, Midway USA, Sierra Bullets, and many others..just too tired to recall em all right now. Competitors..please take the time to thank the sponsors, we couldn't have had such an outstanding prize table without them. Sarge did a damn good job on that!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 22:08:04 (ZULU)

Gary: The workbench is built...and the idea about garage floor epoxy is what I am looking for---now that Travis thought of it for me:)) But those concrete forms are exactly what I am looking for for the shooting bench out back. I have a "temporary plywood bench" out there that has been temporarily shot off of for four years now. Lesson learned: Do not make stop-gaps too durable or useful...or they become permanent.

I used marine grade varnish on my NC workbench. It was actually a "selling point" for the house (I made it with an offset for the garage sill--so it stayed). That coating was inset about an 1/8" to the surface from the borders, and was both durable and pretty by design. But the nasty old boards I am using now as a surface need paint...or a large brown bag to cover it:))

Joe M
Sunday, September 30, 2007, at 22:21:38 (ZULU)

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