Sniper Country Duty Roster

Mk4.....Good info on Billy Dixon, but Dixon and Chapman, being civilians, subsequently were forced to return their medals.

HDR
OK, - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 02:04:08 (ZULU)

Happy Independace day!!

I just wanted to thank all of you past and present military personnel for allowing us to celebrate another one.

.......P.S. Do any of you know a message board where I can post a message to let some liberals know that I'm using my tax cut money to buy AR15 parts?......haha. Seriously though, I know you guys are there for all of us, but I'm just having a hard time with the left's point of view(H.R. 2038 in particular) these days.

Chris Wallis
Azle, TX, USA - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 02:07:20 (ZULU)

Another successful 4th of July shift. Confiscated enough contraband fireworks to blow up half the neighborhood. Hmmmm.....where should I put them? Anyway, to all of you who served, and all that are still serving, thank you for standing in the breach, and helping to give us 227 years of what the rest of the world wants, FREEDOM! Brian, and all other LE guys, thank you as well. Be carefull out there.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 04:20:50 (ZULU)

HDR,

>>>>>>>Dixon and Chapman, being civilians, subsequently were forced to return their medals.<<<<<<<

Yes, that's true. However, it's my understanding that the medals were returned to them in the not too distant past. Sometime in the 1990s I believe.

Mk4

Mk4
Texas, God Bless America, United States of America - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 04:36:01 (ZULU)

Gents,

Happy 4th of July. Started the day off with Salem PD and Marion County Sheriff doing a felony car stop right below my post. Little did they know the hispanic gang banger also had a rifle on him, in case things went sour. This at 0615 this morn...perfect way to start the day!

Sent a picture of the Lapua to IN-SAIN. He labeled it "sniper porn". Only that lad would think of that!

All the best...headed for the sack and duty in the morn.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 05:03:59 (ZULU)

Charles; there are getting to be quite a few companies offering internet through the air now. (not satellite but that's avaialable too. It kinda sucks) You might take a look around. It's usually about as fast as Cable Modems during high load peaks.

MK4; you are absolutely right. Dixon worked as a surveyor I believe but I had forgotten that. One should assume he knew exactly how far it is when you think about that information. MK4 now...He's the man to talk too about the history of the panhandle region.

I gotta get some of those books you mention. That might be where Terry Johnston got his information. (just wonder). I think your right about the Medals too.

Brogers
Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 06:21:40 (ZULU)

Marty Lee Daugherty, you have mail.

Dennis

(Spud)

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 07:08:37 (ZULU)

G'day,saw a great article in the aus target shooter mag about border barrels.I thought the guy from h.s precision who went over there is called J.R, says here,somethin else :)) Good thing is theres an Aussie stocker of border barrels so I might get in touch with him,depending on how me "new" stick shoots when the gestapo get through the paper work and I gets it home.Ya wouldnt think an old single shot would need a 6 week waitin period!!!

out

G.W

Gavan Willis
Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 10:09:51 (ZULU)

M2 Springfield magazines for you collectors:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3615719330&category=588

Interesting cheek weld idea:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2181740623&category=36074

HS verticle grip stock:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3616054310&category=36258

Good deal on Rem slug barrel:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3615709949&category=31709&rd=1

Another Rem BDL stock:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2181212632&category=588

Yet another PSS stock:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3616394481&category=36258

Off to the range to do some mousegun practice, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 13:59:12 (ZULU)

Well Happy Belated 4th! As Sir Wes I just got off a 12 hour shift and need to be getting to bed! However since I celebrated my 4th working I'm rewarding myself, also Mrs Sarge, with a Merle Haggard Concert tonight, now THAT'S my kind of 4th! You'all take it easy and play nice! Tomorrow I may FINALLY get to the range and do some more testing on the 175 SMK's with the 43.5 of TAC! We shall see!

Night...er...Morning all!

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 14:00:51 (ZULU)

If the "World Comminity" wants to help Liberia, we can provide air and sea lift. We've done it before. We're getting stretched too thin to provide troops:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003707

CDC'
Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 16:00:58 (ZULU)

Alright, the 17hmr bug seems to have caught on here,not in rifles but in slot in sub cal barrels for Drillings and Bockbuchsflinten ( shot gun / rifle combinations). hence, where the hell do i get my hands on a 17HMR chamber reamer? HELP!

Jon, Baaaahhhhhhh.. and there are still no sheep in Yorkshire.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 16:31:38 (ZULU)

Mk4…Your response about Billy Dixon’s medal being restored to him sent me to the web. Found the following:

Dr. Mary Walker Contract Surgeon Civil War

William H. Woodall Civilian Scout Civil War

Amos Chapman Civilian Scout Indian Campaigns

William F. Cody Civilian Scout Indian Campaigns

"Buffalo Bill"

William Dixon Civilian Scout Indian Campaigns

James B. Dozier Civilian Scout Indian Campaigns

All the above had their medals revoked and later restored. Had never heard of Dr. Walker, who had served as a civilian contract surgeon on Civil War battlefields through several campaigns.

"While one could debate that by post-1917 standards, the service of Dr. Walker might not have merited the Medal of Honor, her actions and service must be viewed in the context of the Civil War, and the standards that were applied to others for receipt of the award. By that standard, both Dr. Walker and William Woodall (not to mention the other four civilian scouts), certainly earned the award, and were denied it SOLELY because of their civilian status."

Amazing what you can learn on this site..

HDR
OK, - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 16:35:52 (ZULU)

Anyone know the manufacturer of the FSBE kit/vest currently in use by USMC MEU's????????????? Trying to find something to replace the @#$%^&&*(* issue gear we currently use.

WR Moore
Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 17:40:56 (ZULU)

Note to self: Do not leave spotting scope in safe! Makes for a long day when practicing for service rifle.

WR,

Check out these links, they might can steer you in the right direction.

http://assaultweb.net/

http://geardo.com/

Slapping myself in the forehead, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 19:30:54 (ZULU)

Hello Steve !

Unfortunately Finland does not have even one Karl Marx Platz. We never had any because we were never occuopied by USSR. We do not have any Patton Boulevards either because never had any US troops in Finland. By the way, Karl Marx was a German so that might explain to some extant his "success" in DDR street maps :-)

What we do have is 86000 crosses on our cemetaries to keep up the memory of those Finns who died while defending Finland against Soviet Union.

We never got any help from the USA so you can went your "unforgiven Euro weenies" frustrations towards other European nations if you really have to.

Anyway if you want to continue thsi discussion please take it offline.

Hexa

Hexa
Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 20:00:09 (ZULU)

I just returned from the "Adobe Walls" site with - essentially - nothing new to report.

There is a marble memorial listing those who died during the 'War' next to Billie (William) Dixon's grave. There is also a marble memorial located a short distance away that lists the Comanche, Cheyane and Kiowa who died there. Someone had placed 2 .45 acp rounds and one round (I assume) of .30-06 on his headstone.

I took a Simmons 600 laser range finder in the hopes it might work but on the closest of 2 or 3 'bluffs' (edge of the caprock) all I could get was "Rain," or "Reflection," and or ">250."

But it was a nice ride on my bike

I tried...

Sharron

(Larry)

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!! - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 21:17:31 (ZULU)

Last week at Butner, I determined that something is messed up with my 300 Sendero and 308 HBV.

Last year I had the LOP on both increased to 14" which was indicated by the LOP measuring thingie at the local gunsmith. I was feeling kinda cramped so I figured that might help. Well, stoopid me didn't take into account wearing a shooting jacket. Hence I was crawling all over the stocks last weekend looking for a comfortable position and trying to find the scope. Couldn't even get a comfortable cheek weld.

I don't know where the questions are here but I guess it can be boiled down to the following:

1. Do you take into account a shooting jacket when you adjust your LOP?

2. Do you make a permanent cheek weld adjustment for prone position?

3. Do you set your eye relief for only shooting prone?

4. Do you set the whole gun up for prone and if not, how do you make those micro adjustments that allow for less fighting the rifle to get into position?

Can you tell I'm was a little frustrated last weekend?

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 21:42:39 (ZULU)

Oh no...

I take a week away, and look at the shite storm...Spin drift? heheh...Ok Mr. Rogers:

>>Question #1 If the bore were rifled in the other direction would it go left instead of right. I vote yes it would go left instead of right.

Yes, the drift will be in the direction of the twist

>>Question #2 If there is more twist is there more drift? Yes, I think so.

Yes there will

>>Question #3 If air density is different (baro) does that affect the drift. Yes, I think so.

affects everything I guess, but does not affect the spin drift in itself so much that you would have to account for it...Basically your bullet will slow faster or slower, and the amount of spin drift at 'x' range will be affected accordingly

>>Question #4 Does temperature difference affect spin drift.

Yes, but it's very small.

Once again it is a matter of the flight of the bullet, doesn't affect the spinning part, more of an effect on forward motion..

>>Question #5 Does the speed the bullet is traveling affect the drift amount? Yes but again it would be hard to detect as the spin itself

Yes the speed of the bullet affects the drift, the faster the RPM's the more the drift..But you will get there quicker, and can account for less deflection from the wind, which is the real culprit...

>>Ok, so there's no such thing as spin drift, insider trading, or Leprechans, Sober Irishmen or Perfect barrels. Or all the above.

Excuse me? I was sober just the other day..me thinks...and the wee Leprechauns, I seen 'em, heard 'em anyway with their evil snicker..evil bastads.. they're the ones that rob you of all your money on the way home from the pub, you know when you wake the next day and say 'how on earth did I spend 100 quid last nite', that's the leprechauns..where do you think they get their pot of gold? they're almost as bad as the banshees...insider trading, dunno, but I'd never trade my pint of Guinness for a glass of steenking Strongbow..Perfect barrels, nah, I'm never satisfied either...One day..

>>There's no way it can move 4 inches in 400 yards without moving 1" at 100 yards! But remember it was zeroed at 100 yards.

In a word, no. Spin drift is something you don't really need to account for until you get to distances..Wind drift is the real bastad..Spin drift will affect you right and down with right hand twist, a lot of times when you correct for windage, you must increase your elevation to compensate for the drift...this is at distances mind you..

Pete,

I sent youse an email on chamber reamers for the 17HMR, don't know if your email's working, so I'll lay it out here...Your other favorite barrelmaker, Heym, is a Clymer reamer dealer, they should have the reamer...Otherwise I can put you in touch with Arthur Smith from Arms Restoration Services in Colchester, he's a PPG dealer or importer guy...

Had to make a quick run back home, been at the Copshaw Music Festival, basically another excuse for these Scots to drink themselves blind..Mate had far too much intoxicating spirits so ran him home before he ended us up in gaol, goin back for second shift..Yee haw, but damned the midgies!!! bloody klegs out as well, maneaters..

Ciao you rebels

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 22:56:32 (ZULU)

Bolt- nothing on those websites, thanks for trying.

LOP- It's been many a moon since I shot HP competition and I'll leave the fine points to the more highly & recently skilled. But- yes, LOP has to be set wearing everything you go to the line wearing. Yes, the LOP may change by position, this is why many match rifles have buttplates that adjust for LOP, cant & elevation. A dedicated match stock may be a simple answer for several of your questions. 'Tis also why there are special rifles made for prone matches.

WR Moore
Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 23:10:49 (ZULU)

JRaH' thanks for the run down on SD. and the Little fellows. I must admit Lito's explanation of the bullet having to fall rapidly before the drift becomes a factor makes sense although I didn't pick up on it before if it ever came up around here. So if One is shooting the uphill side of the trajectory or straight out there is very little drift and if It's falling there is more drift. Just wanted to hear myself say it. I was sure I'd seen a little fellow getting into my wallet on the way from the gun show. Now I can tell my wife where the money went.

Brogers
Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 23:43:04 (ZULU)

WR Moore:Blackhawk Industries makes a S.T.R.I.K.E. (Soldier Tactical Retro Integrated Kit Enhanced) the catolog is a must, lots of usefull gear. this kit is compatible with Full Spectrum Battle Equipment System.

URL : www.blackhawkindustries.com

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 23:44:56 (ZULU)

JR; what say ye about the Carbon barrel sheathed stuff? Spare not the rod for I' know not whether I like this thing or not. But your take would be appreciated.

Mine is a Factory remington. I errored in measuring the distance to the lands and had 1.5" groups. Today I corrected and the largest group was .65 but it is very noticeable that the first 2 rounds of a three shot group usually go same hole with the third always accounting for the spread. The next 2 tend to hover between the two and tighten up toward the first two. A bit confused myself. CBS is always right dead on the same place I might mention.

Brogers
Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 23:51:26 (ZULU)

Newbie Target Question: What kinds of targets are you guys using at 100 yds? What about at 300 - 600 yds? Also, any good links to printable targets online?

Thanks.

Corb

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, Ne, USA - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 04:06:56 (ZULU)

Pete and other '06 fans,

When I decided to build a Tactical Rifle in 30-06 a couple of years ago, there were more than a few snickers. And to this day, you still see the occasional posting about how the .308 will do anything the 30-06 will do. Guess again. I stoked my Lapua brass with 60.8 grains of Reloader 22 and topped it off with the Sierra 190 grain Match King and got 2900 fps out of it. That's right on the heels of 300 Win. Mag. performance! I also tried the 185 grain Lapua Scenars using H4831SC powder, but was disappointed with the results. Don't know why, the powder is supposed to be similar in burn rate to RE-22. Will try the 190 SMK's with H4831SC and the 185 Scenars with Reloader 22 tomorrow. Will be looking for a sweet spot between 2850 - 2900 fps.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 04:15:43 (ZULU)

If you haven't seen Apocolypse Now Redux, and it ever comes on again, see it! The original version pales in comparison. Going on almost 4 hours now.

Getting sleepy, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 04:47:23 (ZULU)

Don K,

The .30-'06 is a fine cartridge but you are comparing apples to oranges! Pushing the 190SMK to 2900 in the '06 will develop a FULL head of steam, while 2950 out of the .300WM is mild indeed. This may not mean much to some, but means a hell of a lot to those in harms way.

You don't get something for nothing and there ain't no free lunch!

Boltster,

Yeah! And now we find out what REALLY happened to the USO girls;-)

All,

The site functions on the DR have been slower than cold snot as of late. Anybody else with this problem?

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 05:02:32 (ZULU)

Hexa: The argument is over. You lost. Drop it.

CDC'
Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 06:26:34 (ZULU)

'Yote,

>>>JR; what say ye about the Carbon barrel sheathed stuff? Spare not the rod for I' know not whether I like this thing or not. But your take would be appreciated.>>

well, I think they are gathering a following, but I'm not convinced quite yet..I haven't seen many a straight wrapped barrel, very difficult to machine or hammer such a small tube, and thinks you might be limited to relatively small calibers to get decent performance..the .223's seem to shoot, but sometimes I wonder if they even need rifling to group well, haha, it is such a forgiving caliber..They are very stiff, two thumbs up on that, and lite as a feather, and handle heat well..What I wonder about is when the barrel has to stretch, what effect does that have on the wrapping, and subsequently to the POI, how tight are these things wrapped..Does it allow the barrel to come back to original length, or does the steel tube pull away from the epoxy holding the liner, leaving a 'loose spot'...or does the graphite just give up and crack at the surface of the barrel, unbeknownst to the shooter.. And when it does fail, when the barrel fails and blows into bits, what does that look like...

So Bill, I'm still asking questions myself....I wouldn't mind one, good for the dog towns or varminting, or maybe a hills deer rifle if the barrel's not so thick, I don't know how many thicknesses of OD is offered with these...But I wouldn't have a Remington barrel, probably have to go with Christensen Arms, my ex-old QC buddy was working there, maybe they'd let me send a cut blank for the wraps..

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 10:47:36 (ZULU)

Gas gunners-Have you had a chance to try SLIP 2000 Gas Piston and Choke Tube Cleaner yet. If not try it. I was a hold out until yesterday. I took the bolt from my M16 after about 500 rds and soaked it in the stuff for about 15 minutes. I pulled it out and wiped it off. All, I mean all that hard baked on carbon was gone, that quick. This stuff works, is non toxic and has very little odor. It comes in a jar, like a mason jar, with a couple little parts hangers for about $12.00. I've been using the SLIP 2000 lube for awhile and like it too. Seriously I am not BS'ing about how well the gas/choke cleaner works, it's a keeper.

Well, the 4th was a good day of BBQ, friends and fireworks. As it should be.

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 13:43:00 (ZULU)

I'm suffering from the after effects of visitors from Tennesee, Uncle Jack came a visiting last night... glad i'm a beter shot with a rifle than i am with a bowling ball, evey time i go into town it is confirmed to me that thereare far to many bloody immigrants in this country.

JR, i'll check the email ref the reamer, me thinks Heym won't have the 17 reamer yet, and they are usualy cheaper state side, for my barrel vice and Rem 700 action wrench the cheapest i could get here was nearly $500, i bought em from Brownells for less than $150, but that 17 HMR would be an interesting thing to have as a slot in barrel, talking of interesting slot in barrels, i used to have an over/under combination with a 30-06 bottom and a 20 guage top barrel, i had a slot in barrel in ´.22lr that i ported a few times, made some baffles and the 20 bore made it silenced, worked a treat ! I thought they machined the rifling/chamber on the wrapped barrels while is was still a fat barrel and then turned down to the thicknes they wanted and wrapped it? I used to be stationed in Colchester you know, i think i know that bloke you mentioned, and no i wasn't in the Military Corrective Training Centre( Colchester is where the British Army Brigg? Jail is)

Don, me gets 2813 average with factory 180gr stuff, if i hold rifle in same place, the bullets go in to same place, to me the extra cost, noise and recoil of the 300wm just wasn't worth the bother, the 06 does all i ask of it, and then some.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 14:22:42 (ZULU)

Pete,

>>I thought they machined the rifling/chamber on the wrapped barrels while is was still a fat barrel and then turned down to the thicknes they wanted and wrapped it?>>>

yeah, they drill, ream, rifle in fat barrel stage, then profile the barrel to teenie weenie barrel, thread, and then they wrap.They might chamber and thread after it's wrapped, might be different strokes for different folks there...It's the profiling stage which causes havoc, very difficult to keep the tool chatter down and not bend the barrel when you turn a hollow tube to such dimensions, even with a steady...And buttoned barrels are probably even more of a headache, to keep the stresses from relieving when turning down to the thin walls.. We made a few profiled blanks for Magnum Research about 4-5 years ago, they were a right pain in the arse... Maybe if you reamed and rifled them after they were profiled, cut rifled that is...that's what we should have done...

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 14:49:21 (ZULU)

Jr; thanks for your thoughts on the carbona's. This one is 22-250 as I many have already said and is huge in comparison to the VS barrels. I heard that this was made by Christiansen but I don't really think it's the same. We tried a Browning also and it really worked well and was lighter and shorter. I guess time will tell. This thing ALWAYS puts the first 2 shots through the same hole but tends to spread the third. Even when I had seated the bullets too deep it did that only the space to the third one was a lot longer. I guess for Yotes that is plenty good but I'd like to see the rest of those shots go into that 1 quarter inch groups.

Brogers
Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 15:50:47 (ZULU)

Pete L,

.17HMR reamers:

Brownells shows the Dave Manson #513-050-001 @ $65.00 and the Clymer #184-050-001 @ $95.00 in their New Products Supplement #6. Are you still having problems with your orders from them?

The .30-'06 is a fine hunting cartridge. Right between the .308 and the .300WM on the power scale. I'm sure that it would serve as a fine basis for a Tactical Rifle, after all it was our service rifle cartridge for many years and was very sucessful in three wars and many lesser engagements! However it will never be superior to either the .308 or the .300WM for Tactical applications and here's why:

When the pressure is kept to a level that is acceptable in a military cartridge the '06 doesn't overshadow the performance of the .308 by very much and in my experience the .308 generally is the more accurate of the two. Couple this with the shorter OAL and slightly lighter weight of the .308 and the weapons chambered for it, the advantage must go to the .308, not even taking the availability of ammo into consideration.

As you know, when you drive the .30-'06 to .300WM velocities you will invariably exceed the pressure limits imposed by the military as acceptable for field use. It's also been proven that a given cartridge does not deliver it's best accuracy when loaded to the very upper limits of chamber pressures. Since no one has yet repealed Newtons Law the recoil generated by a .30-'06 and a .300WM rifle launching the same bullet at the same velocity from a rifle of the same weight will be almost identical, with the .300WM recoil slightly higher due to the higher weight of its powder charge. Not very noticeable during testing and not at all noticeable in the field, IMO.

The .300WM has consistantly demonstrated superior accuracy as compared to the .30-'06 when driving the heavier bullets at the higher velocities necessary for LD shooting. This is borne out by the competition record of the .300WM in this type of shooting along with the testing done by the military at NSWL-Crane. The muzzle blast generated by the .300WM is higher, that's a given, but if the barrel length is kept to a reasonably minimum length it's not too objectionable. The blast generated by the '06 can be pretty formidable if the barrel is too short for it also.

To sum up the point that I'm trying to get across, the .308 is a better military and police cartridge than the .30-'06, and a superior target cartridge, when the range doesn't exceed say, 800yds. The .300WM excells at longer ranges and in conditions where higher winds prevail. I've made reliable hits to 1200yds with mine! As the .30-'06 fits between the two it's a great hunting cartridge but will never be able to take the place of either of the others at each end of the spectrum! The .30-'06 is my main elk rifle and has been for at least three decades, so believe me when I say that I've got nothing against it at all.

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 16:14:05 (ZULU)

Corb: "What kinds of targets are you guys using at 100 yds?"

I use a benchrester's 1/2" white square inside a 1" black square and quarter the white square with the crosshairs. Benchresters would disapprove of the sloppiness, but I'm using either 10 or 14X and a field position.

"What about at 300 - 600 yds?"

I double the above at 200 yds, triple it at 300, etc.

You can draw and color them using a Pilot Razor Point and a ruler then photocopy and enlarge the targets at your local Kinko's.

Patch with masking tape.

Cheap, cheap.

CDC'
Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 23:12:14 (ZULU)

Targets? Interesting subject. Sometimes I staple a white sheet onto the background or put on a dot much like CDC described. For 95% of my shooting it's done with a standard Police Pistol target. There's just something revealing about shooting the sillouette at different ranges. Much could be argued that a smaller target makes for more precision shooting but .... It tends to indicate what I'm really doing at different ranges. Probably most of you shoot a range somewhere where targets are at different ranges. Me I set up a target and change the range normally shooting off the hood or toolbox of a pickup truck. Sometimes when the brush isn't too tall I shoot prone or in coyote hunting position with my back against a Yucca plant. (there's an art to that cozying up to a yucca without bleeding to death). Around Urban areas and most commercial gun ranges it wouldn't be PC to shoot my targets so don't do that unless your out in the bush somewhere. Believe me there are people who take offense. In some places, even LE gets nervous but our boys are cool around here. OH yeah, I use the masking tape too. Quick and cheap. @100 I just shoot a hole and then shoot at the hole.

Brogers
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 00:05:47 (ZULU)

Targets?

Use Shoot N See's from WalMart.

Gooch
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 02:57:48 (ZULU)

Re: Targets

This works for me at any distance.

The backstop that I shoot at is a 4' X 8' piece of plywood. Like Bill I cover the backstop (and in my case *totally*) with white freezer wrapping paper that can be found @ any grocery store. Takes several sheets across and mucho staples. Then, I use some targets that have been made for me by a local printer. They're a black 12" solid black dot. Staple it in the center of the backstop. I then take some 3" Birchwood fluorescent orange stickers and spray paint them white. After drying I'll stick it (and sometimes) staple it to the center of the black dot.

This system works very well @ long range and even if you miss the target, the white papered background will pick up any flyers (as long as you keep it on the board ;))) This also works very well for sighting in.

I use this method mainly for checking group size @ long range and working on my come-ups.

Edited:

One more thing. I also like to use the little white pricing stickers like what you'll find at an office supply. The little round ones are great for covering up holes and come in packs of a 100 or so.

Mk4

Mk4
Texas, God Bless America, United States of America - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 03:12:09 (ZULU)

For 223 I use the 12" Birchwood Casey ShootNC targets like Gooch indicated. You can see a 223 hole past 200 yards easily with a good scope.

http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/applications/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=769891

For bigger calibers, I use the old style Redfield sight in targets when I'm zeroing. When I get zero'd, I use xerox'd 1" square grid targets with a 1" square in the middle that I drew up.

I have a bunch of pistol silouette targets that I use as a backdrop for the above targets just in case I loose one in the backstop. After I'm through with the rifles, I take the pistol silouette down and finish it off with pistols.

Bolt
NC, - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 03:31:58 (ZULU)

Wal Mart generic 9" paper plates! $3.00 for 300. I'm cheap and shoot a lot. I make a one-inch (inside measurement) square in the center of the plate with one of those fat black Marks-A-Lot markers for use out to 200yds. At 300 to 500yds. I make the square two inches, larger if needed with lower powered optics. After 500yds. I spray paint the entire plate flat black with the cheapest generic spray paint that I can find on sale. I just staple these plates to a white stiff paper target backer, then quarter the plate with the crosshairs. The backer can by painted black and the plate left white for shooting groups.

For longer ranges out comes the 4x8 strandboard sheet spray painted flat white. I make two holes in a yardstick using the inner one as a pivot point and the outer one holds the marker while describing an arc, usually go for a 24" circle. Have to make several passes to get the outline wide enough. I've also used a nail lightly hammered at the center of the circle that I want to make with a string attached to it, and the other side of the string tied around a spray can.I can make big circles with this method. To improve visibility at long ranges try the flourescent marker paint found at Home Depot in many striking colors. I purchace commercial targets only when I'm looking to show-off some bragging groups!

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 05:23:05 (ZULU)

OK guys who has the best price on Oehler 35P w/3 skyscreens?? Also those of you shooting a .17 HMR anyone have the NEF Sporter? What is your experience with it? As you can see Im looking for new play toys! I also remember someone saying the BSA Sweet 17 scope was pretty decent for the .17 HMR - which the fixed or variable? Lets see did I forget anything...OH targets - stand and base made from PVC pipe - CHEAP - cardboard backing from the side of a refridge carton, even CHEAPER - staple whatever I feel like for target - but usually use a Hoppes sight-in target - love that flouresent orange and the 5 targets on one sheet, however am currently looking for a steel IPSC (probably an MGM) target to use at distance (400+) - DING, no have to go down range to see if hit!

Catch me offline with some of this - especially the Oehler price!

Thanks,

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 05:26:55 (ZULU)

If you ever wondered how the scraggly Afghan mujaheeden managed to kick the Soviet army out of their country, there's a book you might wish to read. The largest covert operation in U.S. history to support them was inspired by a Dallas socialite, who talked a playboy east Texas congressman with a fondness for blondes and cocaine into funding it. It was run by a rogue CIA operative, whose military planner was a 31-year-old CIA rookie who was a one-time Special Forces Soldier of the Year. The planner analyzed the situation, set up and implemented a plan that ultimately worked, then realized that if he stayed with the CIA after determining how 57 percent of their entire operations budget was spent, it would be years if not decades before he had another meaningful job. He quit, and went to Wharton's business school.

They bought Soviet-designed weapons and munitions from Egypt, the Israelies, and even the Chinese, for deniability, with both U.S. money and money from the Saudis, and funneled it all into Pakistan, where some of it was carried into Afghanistan by Tennessee mules.

The Congressman was Charlie Wilson, and the book is _Charlie Wilson's War_, by George Crile. It's a book filled with characters so odd that it wouldn't work as a novel or movie script, because it's just too bizarre to be believable. It's highly readable and a hell of a story.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 05:36:37 (ZULU)

Lindy: Every outfitter in Colorado knew that the CIA bid up the price of mules beyond all reason. The last good Tennessee mule we got cost $350. There was even talk of using them to haul ancient pack howitzers for the Contras in Nicaragua. I never heard what came of that.

Then the damned Frogs started eating our horses and their prices went crazy.

Rooskies and Frogs are nothing but trouble.

CDC'
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 06:03:31 (ZULU)

I have an older Rem. 700 (first or second year of productions?).

I was told that the rear receiver bridge is lower than current manufacture, and standard bases do not work - vertical elevation runs out at 100 yards. So I am told. Can anyone confirm this and the year(s) of manufacture for which this would be true?

Second, does anyone know whether long-range tactical bases would compensate or over-compensate, and where the "center" of vertical would be if one was used (distance)? Thanks for any info. Private e-mail is OK.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 08:08:22 (ZULU)

Alan, you do realise that Jon B will print whatyou wrote below and carry it in his wallet, i will never be able to rib him about his 300Wm again !!!! I knew all of what you wrote, and to be honest i was once a 308 win man, with a need for more speéd and energy i moved to a 300wm, an a lovely rifle it was too, RWS 89 (howa 1500) luxus model, superb wallnut stock, i bedded it in belzona and the thing shot tiny little groups, it kicked like a mule, but i didn't notice in the field, i wrecked the stock hunting a Californian Black Bear, couldn't find a synthetic stock for it so i sold it on, big mistake! then i got a Sendero in 300wm. I had suffered a shoulder injury about this time and the recoil made me flinch, so i made a brake for it, I bought the Remy mountain rifle (custom shop) because it was cheap, i got it for $450, it was new.i had never had a 30-06 before and never paid much attention to it, having sub consiously classed it with the 303 and the 8x57, old fashioned warhorses i thought. I got sick of carrying the heavey Sendero up and down the Scottish hill side, the rifle alone was ok, but when dragging 2 deer out the rifle became just 5lbs to much. I made a brake for the 06, which made it a pussy to shoot,put a diferent stock on it and floated the barrel, it shot ´honest 1/2 inch groups(3shot) all day and also many 1/4 inchers,sold the sendero and i guess i haven't looked back since, now with a diferent barrel and an accurised reciever its even better(when i do my part) all it needs is a 4-16x42 PMII, when the blokes at S&B finaly make em.(ive got 2 308's aswell as back up though)

and thanks for the heads up on the new products from brownells i hadn't recieved that, not having probs with Brownells deliveries since another roster hawg started getting me the stuff´. MARC !!! i need a 17HMR reamer !!!! but they aint very quick at dealing with complaints.

cheers Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 08:51:06 (ZULU)

ALAN,

"When the pressure is kept to a level that is acceptable in a military cartridge the '06 doesn't overshadow the performance of the .308 by very much..."

You're missing the point here. The 30-06 is deliberately downloaded in deference to old rifles and the pressure curve needs of the M1 Garand. Since I am using a modern Winchester M70 built by Jack Krieger, I am not constrained by these artificially low SAAMI specs.

"As you know, when you drive the .30-'06 to .300WM velocities you will invariably exceed the pressure limits imposed by the military as acceptable for field use."

Again, I am not proposing that the military be issued M70's in 30-06 (although the idea does appeal to me:o), I am simply looking for a cartridge offering better performance at 1k than the .308, without going to a 300 magnum.

"It's also been proven that a given cartridge does not deliver it's best accuracy when loaded to the very upper limits of chamber pressures."

True. And that is why I have settled on a load of 60.4 grains of RL-22 which drives the 190 SMK at 2875 fps.

"...the .308 is a better military and police cartridge than the .30-'06, and a superior target cartridge, when the range doesn't exceed say, 800yds."

True. And if I were wanting to shoot at 800 yards, I would grab my .308. And if I were wanting to shoot a 1200 yards, I would want a 300 Magnum of some persuation. What I want is a good cartridge to send a high BC 190 grain SMK at between 2850 and 2900 fps, and it ain't gonna happen with a .308. Just MHO.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY , Under God in the USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 13:36:21 (ZULU)

Don; I tried peddling the 30-06 here years ago and was finally shouted down. With A-max bullets you can easily get to 1000 and a little beyond. The cartridge you are looking for however is the 300WSM. Much easier to make the 1k and not hard enough on recoil to bother you. The 30-06 probably kicks more if you're using a standard barrel. But I know what you are saying. For the rifles like the M1a and M-60 the .308 is all the piece will handle anyway.

CDC; The mules made it to El Salvador at one time.

What a boondoggle all this stuff was but communism was the enemy then. A torturing dictator like Sadamn was more acceptable for foreign arms aid than the most benign communist. (that would be Fidel at the top of the benign list). Times have changed though. Ronnie and Oliver and a couple of other's you'd know just had their priorities a bit mucked but it worked out I guess.

Brogers
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 14:06:30 (ZULU)

Bill: "What a boondoggle all this stuff was but communism was the enemy then."

We fought a "long twilight struggle" and won. I supported the Cold War and still do.

"A torturing dictator like Sadamn was more acceptable for foreign arms aid than the most benign communist."

We supported Sadaam against Khomeni. When it looked like Sadaam would win, Col North cut an arms deal with the Iranians. We did not want either to dominate the Persian Gulf. We employed the strategy that Truman recommended we employ in the fight between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union: "Help the side that is losing until they destroy each other."

"(that would be Fidel at the top of the benign list)."

Acting in tandem with the Soviet government, benign old Fidel trained and armed the Nicaraguan, Salvadorian, Guatamalian, and Honduran guerillas. Mexican too, now that I think about it. They were trying to nullify our historical advantage of being surrounded by oceans. Castro called it, "bringing fire to the belly of the beast." He also had a lot of troops in Angola. The Soviets were making a serious effort in Mozambique. They were surrounding South Africa. The goal was to be able to shut down the sea lanes and to deny us SA's strategic minerals. The Soviets had moved in to the Horn of Africa, thus threatening our shipping through the Red Sea. They had moved into Aden, thus putting our oil supply in peril. They had Cam Ranh Bay which is in position to threaten our Pacific oil routes. They had a strategic bomber base in Nicaragua and were almost in position to shut down the Panama Canal.

They were moving to do what Patton called, "Hold them by the nose (Central America) and kick 'em in the ass (oil routes)."

All this served their primary goal which was to take Western Europe.

Since their nuclear program was massive and ongoing, and their forces in Central Europe were far larger and more powerful than our's, they were angling to be able to say, in Solzhenitsyn's words, "We are marching on Western Europe. If you make a move to stop us, we will annihilate you."

President Reagan knew all this and took the fight to Castro and the Soviets. After that poor, muddle-headed Parson Carter's steely indecision, Bonny Prince Ronny's clear vision and affable hard-line was just what we needed.

"Ronnie and Oliver and a couple of other's you'd know just had their priorities a bit mucked but it worked out I guess."

I respect Ronald Reagan above any other American statesman of the twentieth century. I love that old man. God bless him.

CDC'
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 15:20:23 (ZULU)

Rear Bridge Differnce in Old Remingtons:

P. Hayden,

I used to have the information but have been unable to locate it for some time. If I remember correctly the difference is .100". As to whether a tapered base would correct the problem you'll have to do the math on that one because I don't know how much more say a 20 MOA tapered base is at the rear.

If anyone has the info I would appreciate a copy to put back in my files.

Later,

I guess I could contact Remington but that might be to simple and would mean I'm thinking straight again :-)

Byron
CA, USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 15:24:39 (ZULU)

Targets:

It really depends on what I'm trying to accomplish. If I'm tossing lead at 100 yards, it's a colored (orange, red, blue, etc.)sticky dot in the middle of an 8-1/2 x 11 sheet of paper. If I'm trying to measure something, I make a grid with 1" spacing. There are other features, figures, pictures I use depending on what I'm doing. Then I make a 100 copies and keep them in my range bag. A lot of times I'll set a golfball at 200 meters to sight in my rifle.

For handguns- there is a nice target available at

http://www.sportshooter.com/improving/targetgallery.htm

that a friend forwarded. It breaks the circle into various sectors, each with an explanation of what you may be doing wrong in order to hit at that sector. There are other targets as well. Otherwise, empty soda cans provide good feedback.

Duman
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 15:28:46 (ZULU)

Brogers,

There's strength in numbers. You, me, and Pete will outflank the naysayers:o) Seriously, with the modern slow burning powders available now, I intend to show that the '06 is no slouch at 1k.

I have a whole bunch of the 178 grain A-max bullets, but with the velocity I am able to get out of the higher BC 190 SMK's, I think they will perform better. The problem with the 300WSM is the same as with the 6.5-284. While they are advertised as short action cartridges, once you load them with the long heavy bullets necessary for LD shooting they don't fit a short action anymore. If I'm going use a long action, I ain't gonna use one of those short suckers. Hey, when's the last time someone said with a smile "Ohhhh, you got a SHORT one"? I've been following this WSM thing and am expecting the WRSM (Winchester Ridiculously Short Magnum) any day now. Hey, it helps them sell new rifles. Recoil with my '06 is not bad. My Winchester wears an A-2 with all the bells and whistles, Williams TG/FP, Badgers mounts, and has a 26" fluted AMU contour barrel (.930). Weight is about 16 #.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 15:58:09 (ZULU)

I'm too lazy to draw grids, so at 100, I just draw a one inch circle on graph paper. Beyond that, it's just a one MOA black circle to use as an aiming point on whatever is handy. Out to 300, bristol card stock is nice, because it won't tear out at the staples in a breeze. SnipersHide has some nice digital targets for your printer, too.

I'll be gone for a while starting tomorrow morning, hiking and goofing off in the Rockies, Uintas, Tetons, and elsewhere. I know there is no point in suggesting that y'all be good, so I'll just hope that you'll be safe.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 16:13:36 (ZULU)

Pete,

Phoned Arthur Smith today and ordered a 17HMR chamber reamer, you want me to pick you one up? I can ring him in the morning, no problemo, I'll see if we can get it here whilst your up, otherwise I can just send it to ya mate...Sound all right?

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 17:34:46 (ZULU)

Pete,

Better to have Alan's shining tribute to a fantastic calibre in my wallet than a picture of 'Flossy' the Swaledale beauty all trussed up in suspenders and high heels like you have in yours! To those who don't know a Swaledale is a breed of YORKSHIRE sheep; ha 'no sheep in Yorshire' indeed.

Will get your stuff off tomorrow. I gave Rachael the task today and she failed. I have issued a punishment beating and am assured it will be done tomorrow (don't tell her I said that, she'll kill me ;-) ). Did you get my email about the lack of Cameron Diaz videos in Tesco? If you want I can order it off Amazon for you and get it sent to you, just let me know.

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 18:20:58 (ZULU)

Bolt-ster...

>>"Hmmmmmmmmmm, is it my imagination or do stock and scope eye relief settings that are set for upright and bench shooting not

apply to prone? "<<

Nope... not your imagination... different positions (orcramped neck).

Don K...

>>"I've been following this WSM thing and am expecting the WRSM (Winchester Ridiculously Short Magnum) any day now."<<

Nope... it ain't comin'.

They have decided to go with the WSSM (Winchester Super Silly Magnum).

P. Hayden...

Call Leupold about the Old Remington bridge thing... they will be able to tell you what you need (and the serial number of the change over).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 18:40:30 (ZULU)

In 1976, Rem changed the rear bridge..by .017.

You can call Rem direct, and give them your Ser#, and they will let you know yr of mfgr.

Two Shoes

Glockamolie
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 19:05:18 (ZULU)

On Cuba:

If you consider pointing Russian-made nuclear-tipped ICBMs at the continental United States the act of a "benign communist," I've got some uninhabitable radioactive Florida swampland I'd like to sell you. Fidel is not, nor has he ever been, nor will he ever be a "benign" communist.

And considering how many millions of people have been slaughtered, starved, imprisoned, and enslaved over the years by communists of every stripe, I seriously doubt the words "benign" and "communist" can logically exist in the same sentence.

On Targets:

I copied and modified a design I found somewhere. Click my name below to download the 100 yard version (in MS Word format). I use this design because my M3LR mildot crosshairs just *barely* fit within the whitespace of this target. If I can see a sliver of white above, below, to the left, and to the right of my crosshairs, I know I'm dead-nuts. For 200 yards, I double the size of the blocks, and double the whitespace between them. Tripple for 300 yards. Beyond that, and mirage makes this target impossible to use.

Michael A. Litscher
Brew City, WI, USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 19:40:24 (ZULU)

Don K,

"You're missing the point here".

I don't think so! I never once mentioned SAAMI pressure specs in my post when comparing your '06 loads to the .300WM, nor did I ever even intend to invoke the beat-up old axiom excusing the .30-'06 because of being "deliberately downloaded". I am refering to maximum pressure levels as determined by our military in reference to the acceptability of a certain loading for their purposes. This is, after all, a tactical rifle site, and I give those considerations to all the comparasons that I reference here.

Congratulations, you are very fortunate to have a "fast" barrel on the rifle that you describe! All of my investigation (so far) has revealed that the load that you mentioned in your post is producing about 120fps MV more the other examples I've found, both printed and anecdotal, at a healthy 57,000psi! More power to you:-)

Every so often there is a post on the DR in which the author appears to believe he has re-invented the wheel. I cite the claims of 3200fps MV out of the 6mmx250 with the 100gr. bullet at a safe pressure as an example. I cannot help questioning such claims, as I've already stated my feelings about freebies and lunches. It took a post from Jerry Rice to put the 6mmx250 claims to bed. SHOW ME THE MONEY!!

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 20:31:42 (ZULU)

Rosterfarians,

I see Sarge did not look after you while I was down and out due to a hard-drive crash - never archived. Fortunately my stuff was backed up so it doesn't seem as if I've really lost anything - other than all the settings of course.

Still busy rebuilding my system, but at least I'm starting back up now. For those who sent reguistration requests and read this - please be patient. another couple of days and I'll be back in full.

Marius

Marius
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 21:03:11 (ZULU)

Man been out of hte net a bit and look at the posts. Spin Drift indeed! :-)

30.06 - There was a reason for dropping that cartridge for sniping. I do believe taht is you can push that round that fast your fast barrel will burn real fst as well. Why in the heck am I going to have a rifle for tactical use that will burn my barrel in less then 1000 rounds? Why in the heck am I going to have a weapon that recoils in such a way as to be detrimental to 60% to 75% of shooters. If I down load it I must use more powder to get my round to go the same speed as I can get wiht the 308. Waste of powder, recoil and barrel life. If I am going to have a shorter barrel life then why not step up and shoot something that will give me more bang for the buck. If I am going to get reduced barrel life and increased recoil then I want to be able to go even further, BUT the 300 win mag will give me more barrel life as I have down loaded to 190 gr instead up loading to 190 gr in the 30.06. No, 30.06 is an inefficient round for our work. Hunters may continue to love the old horse just as some still love the typewriter. :-)

Bolt - Can't believe you asked the bench versus prone thing after the number of posts on here warning about that very thing! If you set you relief on a bench you will get scope eye in the prone unless you are very very careful and very uncomfortable! Set scope for prone, shoot bench, works and no scope eye. Of course you know that now. :)

Targets - Try this one if you are wanting an average group size if a large number of rounds or a month long sample of cold bore. Since the rounds cut a hole that makes aimpoint difficult due to it dissappearing after avout 10 rounds then make a two moa aim point four moa above you impact point. Simple to do. Zero up at your range, 100, then go up 4 moa. Fire you group on a 2 moa aim point for clarity adn quartering, impact point twould be a 1 moa dot below your aim point. This will also let you know if you have a canted reticle as the moa will shift you toward the cant. This will alos let you fire a great many rounds at one aim poin tand get a group of many rounds as record of your actual cold bore shift.

Mules, El Salvador, Ollie North, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Charlie Wilson and Clowns In Action. What a bunch. From the beginning of the Contra scandel until its end guys teased about when I was going to testify. One day I think I will write a book. Should be good for a giggle. Of course there was the threat by the State Department that tey would put me UNDER Leavonworth due to my activites in El Sal, but that is another story.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 22:37:11 (ZULU)

Marius, Thanks for achving... Now I can actually get on and read eveything.

Targets. I use a 25 yd pistol target out to 500. My latest thing was two cut out the X ring and Zerox them. It gives you a nice white aming spot up close (100-200). Plus Zerox the hell out of them at work so they cost nada..

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 22:39:42 (ZULU)

You have entered the "No Spin-Drift Zone" [heh]

Had time to do a bit more chrono work with various rounds, including the ever popular Tac powder, and 155 scenars.

Since this isn't "test country" and to keep the formatting halfway intact, if you are bored it's online at

http://new.leveron.com/CEDM7-7-03.html

John L

John Leveron
Mid MO, Mid MO, U.S.A. - Monday, July 7, 2003, at 22:41:42 (ZULU)

You guys are right about Castro causing bunches of trouble but a lot of it was with the aid of the American Press. When I said benign it was more in reference to civil rights violations (accused and otherwise) that compared to Saddam. It was sure enough a matter of much Mirth when the deal North made came out to the public. Probably the only deal we ever made that we didn't loose our butts on. But like Rick says... that's another story. Regan not knowing about North's deal was the smirk of the century but it was handled very effectively at the time. As far as I'm concerned the North "trade" was a good deal for the U>S. but somebody failed to cover up properly. The Ruskies played old Castro by giving him the glory and setting him up. He would have been very benign indeed had he not had their backing.

CDC, I share your affection for Ronnie and don't care how he did it or what he knew or didn't know. He was the man!

Brogers
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 23:29:16 (ZULU)

Rick: "Mules, El Salvador, Ollie North, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Charlie Wilson and Clowns In Action. What a bunch."

One of my brothers says that the only reason we win is because the bad guys are even more f****d up than we are. He may be on to something.

Bill: "You guys are right about Castro causing bunches of trouble but a lot of it was with the aid of the American Press."

Yeah, well, don't sell the Congressional Democrats' contribution short.

CDC'
Monday, July 7, 2003, at 23:44:43 (ZULU)

Ref: Targets

Andy and I enjoy shooting steel. We use a MGM “lolly-popper” spring-loaded mini pepper popper bolted to a hardwood pallet. Last Saturday we shot this target at 200 yards. We appreciate the immediate feed-back we get when we hit it. We also positioned a MGM precision target at 250 yards and would blow the eye-box door open and closed for practice. For zeroing or load testing we just put black ¾ moa target pasters all over an IPSC target.

Ref: Unexplained Windage

The past three 1,000 yard matches required the use of 2 moa left windage in spite of the fact that there was little or no wind to be countered. My plan is to place a spirit level on my badger base (USO type clamp on mount). Then I’m going to set up on the bipod, level the gun to the spirit level and view a plumb line placed at 100 yards out. If the reticle is not aligned with the plumb line I’ll roll the scope in the rings to match up. Then I’m going to shoot a group at my 100 yard zero, dial in my 23 moa for 1,000 yards and shoot another group. By all rights my second group should be exactly above the first along a plumb line.

Ok, so what if the two groups are not along the plumb line?

What if they are but I still have to dial in 2 moa left on a calm day?

Help?

Thanks.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 00:08:06 (ZULU)

Re: Targets

AOL is constantly sending me targets. I see them at the theaters now and at the check-out counters at the supermarkets. Just put some masking tape on the back and spray paint them flat black. They're great at 500 and 600 yards. Pass them out to your friends when you're done.

Scott Smith
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 00:10:46 (ZULU)

Ref: Unexplained Windage

Kevin,

Rotate the top of the crosshair to the upper group, tighten down the scope and start over with the 100 yard zero.

Scott Smith
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 00:19:59 (ZULU)

Howdy all,

Referencing targets, I paste a photocopy of my X's visage on a milkjug full of water, and set them out at different ranges up to 500yds. Great therapy and satisfaction!!!! LOL Never a question if you make a hit or not. Very entertaining inside 300yds.

Good practice out farther. Got two boys, they generate lotsa jugs.

Rex

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 00:57:30 (ZULU)

.30-06;

Don,I hope you find that sweet spot on your loads. I like the .30-06, it carries more power than a .308 and doesn't kick your ass like a .300WM.

You'll like the .30-06, heck, my next project is going to be a '06.

Apocalypse Redux;

That was really cool. The story made better sense with everything in it. Definitely a must see.

I started not to watch it because of Martin Sheen, but I figured Robert Duvall is in it, so I watched it.

F-Class;

Are there any F-Class matches within in 2-3 hours driving distance of Mobile,AL? The range I shoot at suspends highpower/F-Class matches during the summer and resumes in September.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 01:12:33 (ZULU)

Kevin' shooting the Sheperd one shoots up and down the full length of the reticle. I tried line the groups like someone described but the scope wound up canted as hell to compensate. There's no other explanation I can come up with as far as I am concerned spin drift is the culprit. You never have to go right always left.

Brogers
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 01:53:08 (ZULU)

Mr. Rogers - I wasn't going to say that! But the normal spin on the 175 is 1 moa at 1000 meters and about .75 at 1000 yards. :-)

Let the games BIGIN!!!

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 02:56:26 (ZULU)

-I've said it before I'll say it again...I hate the 30-06! Every time I say to myself "I need a new X rifle in X caliber" I respond with "Hmmm but my 30-06 will do that just fine." It really damages the ability to self justifiy.

-Well I saw it happen again at the range. A fellow shooting a couple lanes down was working his 700VL pretty hard and I heard the classic "what the F*#%" He yanked the bolt handle off the bolt. It came off very cleanly too. That's the second one I've seen in the last 6 months. I think I'll do the drill/tap/screw the bolt handle on for peace of mind.

Take it easy,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 03:15:14 (ZULU)

Gents,

I'm NOT going to get involved in this "rotational spin" thread that is getting going! Especially, with Rick being the Devil's Advocate!

If I read this right it's an issue that I can't hold the round that close anyway, at 1,000, so what's the difference? Perhaps, I'm just a simple country lad, but see no reason to get all wrapped up over this one...

Weather is getting strange. July 7 and it's cloudy, cool, and probably going to rain! Haven't had much summer weather this year...for which I'm eternally greatful. Had my share of hot in the Marines.

The .338 goes to the range again. Finalizing the 300 grain loads. Looks like Retumbo is going to be the power of choice for Scott and myself. George is using RL-25. Will give it a shot, but the Retumbo is supposed to be more stable. We'll see.

Waiting for more 250 grain Lapua Scenars to arrive. Seem to be hard to come by. Am going to probably wind up shooting them the most. Will try Sierra 250's SMK's IF I can find any!

Anyone know of any other match bullets in .338?

All for now. More when I can report something interesting.

Final note: Seems that we just had our 53rd casualty in Iraq since the war ended. It's gonna get messy. Those folks only understand one thing...power. I vote to make it the 51st state, it'll keep folk of their ilk "in country" and won't bother us here! Also, we can get the oil AND use the country as a base to branch out from...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 04:20:32 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Tried to reply with clean attachments to your request. Emails with and WITHOUT attachments were kicked back by MSN, and the only reason stated was that the mail was undeliverable. Hit me again, and I will reply to you again.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 04:25:01 (ZULU)

BKS- Just read the article in PM magazine. Good job man...I look forward to the next issue.

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 05:05:06 (ZULU)

Sometimes I really love my wife!

On the 28th Sig Sauer threw Sig Days at our local Gun Slut Support Facility. Free range time, free ammo, free Sig rental.

While I was in the restroom my wife signed us up to compete in the 2x4 shoot. Two 2 person teams racing to see who can shoot a 2x4 in half first. We lost, in part because of insuficient quantity of loaded mags on hand. The other teams loaders were really fast!

After we got back home, my wife said "Honey I'm glad we traded my pistol for my 1100, but I want to start shooting our pistols in competition. Can I use my Glock, or do I need a new one?" "That was really exciting!"

I switched from a Wilson 1911 to a Sig 220 a while back, as I wanted a double action and the Sig pointed even better than the 1911. Ahhh listen to the purists scream ; )

For the 2x4 shoot I used the new 220ST, all stainless slide and frame. A good thing made even better, inmho. I was really quite taken with it. My wife used a 2009 I think, it appeared to have a plastic (oops composite) frame. She had no function problems during the 2x4 shoot, but after during some slow fire for groups, she had two ftfeed.

All pistols were used by one member of the eight teams, for several heats. By the end of the 2x4 shoot they were really quite hot and dirty. But a ftfeed is a ftfeed in a defensive arm! No problems with the 220ST. I just still like steel guns. I feel the need for an upgrade in my carry gun ; )

So this IDPA, is this type of competition really practical? or is it getting gamed-up like the old pistol matches? What were they IPSC? I've got CRS.

Yote bait, I see Midway is getting that BSA 17 scope in 4-12, for $89 I think.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 05:27:32 (ZULU)

Hey Jon, you know what Swaledale translates to don't you?

S. Wales. Dale.. ie, the Dale (valley for you unfortunate non Yorkshire types) in which the Welshman lives. So. I repeat "There are no sheep in Yorkshire ( exept for those owned and courted by Welshmen !) I'll pick up the vid my self when i'm over in a couple of weeks,thanks. but you should buy it for Rachel, cos its mega funny.

JR. whats the price of the 17HMR reamer?

I just love 30-06 discussions, we could talk about the merits of the 308 or the 300 WM all day, but when it comes down to it for me, and i ain't military sniping no more, for hunting any hoofed game in any part of Europe, much of Africa and most of the USA, the good ole 30-06 just fits the bill perfectly,Its perfect for what i want to do with it, the 308 doesn't quite do it, and the 300wm over does it. I wouldn't swap my 06 for any rifle on the plannet(least of all Jon's 300wm.. had to get that in Jon.) Any way me and Jon are bound to forget our 06 v 300 differences in Scotland because one of the Bavarians is bringing a Blaser R93, now thats some one who doesn't yet know how much of a ribbing he is in for.. poor bloke.

Anyway, we should have adopted the Brit 280 and not that Yank 308 as a NATO round.

And there is a God by the way, sat at the end of school year BBQ yesterday, my ex wife actualy passed comment about the influx of immigrants into Germany and about how they all seem to be driving Mercedes and about how wrong it was to let em all in, not to mention the deteriorating standard of education due to some classes having 80% immigrant kids who can't learn at the same pace due to bieng not fluent in the language, she has never had any right wing sentiments in her( well exept on the odd occasion, and it was seldom) and now she is speaking such truth's. restored my faith a little.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 07:20:56 (ZULU)

Sarge, I was looking for the best deal available on an Oehler a few months ago, and ended up just purchasing it from the factory. What a great device made by a quality company! I am very glad that I heeded the advice from the shooters on this site.

Lindy, I read a review of the book that you mention. It sounds great, but I would really like to get Rick's version someday......

Michael
CA, - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 07:40:33 (ZULU)

Targets,in the last couple days there has been big news here about some cop "snipers" (they were using rifles) shooting at photo's of crooks and natives.The official line is they need to shoot at peoples faces to get used to it.There were some fairly large groups.Loud wails from the snivel libertarians and native lobby,much hoorah.Geez theres a few hundred politicians wanna get their heads in pix all the time, why not use them.Waiting with bated breath for Ricks book.And Daves and Gooch's and Brians (but that will prolly contain fetishes and will be banned ;)))

out

G.W

Gavan Willis
australia - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 07:44:37 (ZULU)

Jon

I think Mr Lincoln might be trying to setup a secret web site! Try putting Yorkshire sheep into Google and have a look at the third or forth site down ;-) ha ha ha

Dry
UK - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 09:40:45 (ZULU)

DRY, you bastard, its the 4th one down.. laughed me ass off though..Pete

Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 11:10:26 (ZULU)

Hey Pete, nice web sight you got for yourself there. Remind me not to wear anything fuzzy around you. By the way what size velcro gloves do you wear? =)

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 11:56:06 (ZULU)

Thanks Dry, I need say nothing more! (Walking away with smug grin) ;-)

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 13:06:41 (ZULU)

The continuing saga of the 30-06 wars:o) (Don't ya just luv it)

ALAN,

"I am refering to maximum pressure levels as determined by our military in reference to the acceptability of a certain loading for their purposes. This is, after all, a tactical rifle site, and I give those considerations to all the comparasons that I reference here."

Take a look around here and the several other websites devoted to Tactical shooting. I would be willing to wager that atleast 95% of us are not currently LE or military snipers. The genre of Tactical shooting is rapidly becoming a civilian sport, so whether or not the military finds a certain cartridge or loading "acceptable" is of no consequence. The .308 is a great round, I have one and use it. And no one is trying to take it away from you or the military. But is it a great 1k cartridge: IMHO, No. As far as me having a "fast" barrel on my rifle, I don't think so. A Marine who recently returned from deployment in Iraq broke this ground before I did. In his Remington M700 30-06 Tactical rifle, he also got 2900 fps using 190 grain SMK's and RL22. In his case, the bullets were molyed and he used 62 grains of powder. The velocities I reached using this load were witnessed by 2 shooters other than myself, and I would be more than happy to put you in touch with them for verification.

Rick,

"30.06 - There was a reason for dropping that cartridge for sniping."

Yeah, the 30-06 was replaced by the 7.62x51 as the standard military cartridge. The 30-06 load that was dropped from sniping (M72) is not the same as what I am loading. The 30-06 round that was dropped was loaded with fast powders, making it suitable for use in the M1. My loading clearly is not. Again, I repeat, I am not proposing that the military go to the 30-06, and nobody is taking away your .308. I am simply looking for a better alternative for shooting at 1k. As for burning out the barrel in less than 1000 rounds, I don't think so. Hell, an overbore cartridge and known barrel burner such as the 6.5-284 is usually good for 1000 - 1500 rounds. I would expect barrel life to be little different than any rifle chambered in the 300 Win Mag.

"Why in the heck am I going to have a weapon that recoils in such a way as to be detrimental to 60% to 75% of shooters."

I had a look at this. Using the Point Blank software to calculate recoil, I came up with 13.72 ft/lbs of recoil firing my 30-06 load in my rifle. I then calculated that the same exact amount of recoil would be generated in a .308 weighing 11 pounds and firing a 175 grain bullet using 45 grains of powder at 2735 fps. True, you would not be using an 11# Tactical rifle, but my point is, I don't think 60% to 75% of shooters would find this amount of recoil to be excessive. Again, I am simply trying to bridge the gap between the performance of the .308 and 300 Magnum. Just MHO.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 13:41:20 (ZULU)

4is: Dude, the SIG 220 is my favorite pistol. Have had several and just got a SS version with the rail. Love it. Heavy though.

My Gold Cup and BHP are still in the safe and I am wearing a Glock right now so NO PISTOL COUNTRY ! lol

Later fellas, WY6

brian k. sain
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 13:49:23 (ZULU)

Rick there could be other explanations for what appears to me to be spin drift.

#1. The earth is moving Coroallis affect. (I always shoot north).

#2. The Wind is always out of the southwest here. (I always shoot north.)

#3. Sand bags are lopp sided and the recoil is to the right always.(I always shoot north).

#4. Wiley is always moving west. (I always shoot north).

#5. I always shoot off my truck hood and it's sloping down to the right. (I always shoot north.)

#6. My ruler is really really short and what looks like 3" at 500 yards is really only a quarter of an inch. OK go ahead and pick me apart :).

Brogers
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 13:50:41 (ZULU)

BRogers:

Is that magnetic north, grid north, or true north? ;)

Jeff

Jeff C
NB, Canada - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 14:01:39 (ZULU)

That would be true north at this longitude. Manetic North would be 6" farther right at 500 and I wouldn't be able to separate the wind drift from the magnetic correction. :) I like to stay scientific.

Brogers
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 14:08:30 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

My bad, bad wife went out and bought me a brand spanking new Remington Sendero in 7mm. She also went and put a Loopy scope (4.5x14x50 w/ mildot) on top of it. Threw on one of Mike Miller's excellent slings and IOR rings and base to round out the rig. All this on the sly... thanks in part to Scott Powers.

This thing shoots like a dream... assuming I do my part. I know the only way <i>that</i> will happen is if I get lots and lots of range time. In April, I will most likely be relocating to Fort Collins, CO. Can anyone tell me the legalities surrounding setting up a range in CO? Ideally, I would like to set up a 1000+ yard range if we can find the land to do it (eyeing 40+ acres north of FtC right now).

Thanks.

Jeff

Jeff C
NB, Canada - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 14:32:02 (ZULU)

Chris & Alan..

I just got back to work and am trying to get cought up. I thought I would drop a quick line to let you know about the 6-250 testing.

We loaded three different powders with 107MKs and 105AMAXs. The powders we used were N-140, N-550 and Varget. The first load across the cronograph was in 2880 range with the N-140. Then things started to get strange.

The next load went 3030 and the next went 3105 both to hot. But we had a couple of other loads that were clocking in the 3000fps range that were not to hot. I have to admit that right now I don't think I believe my cronograph.

I had not cronographed my new 6.5x284 so I tried it and it showed a 3026fps with a load that was right at 2970fps with my other rifle. So I guess at this point I don't know what to tell you on the velcoities of the the 6-250s. I do know that a half a grain will put you over max in a hurry with several powders.

Both the N-550 and N-140 shot very well. The Varget showed some promice but needs more work. Seveal loads of the N-140 and N-550 shot well with both bullets. The gun is a real pleasure to shoot. It shot right around .5 MOA at both 400 and 500yds for 5 shot groups. With a 100yd "0" its about 1.5MOA flatter than my 260 at 500yds.

My 6.5x284 shot "Real" well also. I was very pleased with the groups it shot. Its really nice shooting in no wind conditions!!! I shot 2 3/8" at 500yds and 2 7/8" at 600yds for 5 shot groups. Its also shooting about .75MOAs flatter than my old rifle was. I don't know if this is because of the different area I was in (Iowa) compared to my home range or if it is actually faster and the cronograph is not goofy.

I will try to get ahold of a friend of mine who has a cronograph and put them side by side to check the darn thing out. If its right then the 6-250 "WILL" definatly go to 3000fps but its definatly on the edge. I would say that for case life you would have to stay in the 2900fps range, maybe even high 2800s. We ruined some cases with loads that were listed medium to hot and pulled a couple of other loads that were listed as hot.

All in all its a sweet rifle to shoot and seems to be very accurate. If they get the case life they claim it would be a great little rifle. I really want to shoot it at a 1000yds to see what it will do there before I jump in with both feet. If you were only shooting to 600yds though it would be my rifle of choice. No recoil and very accurate!!!

Pat
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 14:52:09 (ZULU)

Jeff C,

I work in Ft. Collins, CO, and I'd be more than happy to help out. Drop me a note and we'll get started........

Duman

Duman
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 14:58:55 (ZULU)

Brian, come on we all know you like the Sig because it has a "Pretty mouth" and the glock because it's finsih is the best against bodily fluids.LOL Seriously without Sig and Glock we would have no new homes for old stamped metal and TupperWare that wont seal anymore.

I had spin drift once but she moved away. Bad Rick.

Hey how about that 408 Cheyenne? Someone fell off the planet.

Undude/back in hide

MikeMiller
CA, - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 15:18:24 (ZULU)

4is: "I switched from a Wilson 1911 to a Sig 220 a while back, as I wanted a double action..."

I couldn't be happier for you if you recieved the first successful wart transplant. (Smiley face here.)

Archery guys: Thanks for the help. I ended up buying a used Martin off the guy who lives behind me for fifty bucks. It'll do.

State of play in Iraq:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-singer070803.asp

The Baathists, al Qaeda, the Iranian Mullahs, the Democrats and our media have interests in common. After all - with the best of intentions - dumb old Walter Cronkite was used by Brezhnev, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, and the McGovern wing of the Democrat party.

Viet Nam is still the model.

CDC'
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 15:30:51 (ZULU)

O.K., time to lighten things up here a little. Since I'm not sending this one from work I don't think they can make me the subject of another investigation but either way, they can take a flying leap. If you're easily offended close your eyes and scroll by...DO NOT READ!

This is your last chance....

A Georgia woodpecker and a Kentucky woodpecker were arguing about which state had the toughest trees.

The Georgia woodpecker said that they had a tree that no woodpecker could peck. The Kentucky woodpecker challenged him and promptly pecked a hole in the tree with no problem.

The Georgia woodpecker was in awe.

The Kentucky woodpecker then challenged the Georgia woodpecker to peck a tree in Kentucky that was absolutely un-peckable. The Georgia woodpecker expressed confidence that he could do it and accepted the challenge.

After flying to Kentucky, the Georgia woodpecker successfully pecked the tree with no problem.

The two woodpeckers were now confused. How is it that the Kentucky woodpecker was able to peck the Georgia tree and the Georgia woodpecker was able to peck the Kentucky tree when neither one was able to peck the tree in their own state?

After much woodpecker-pondering, they both came to the same conclusion:

Your pecker is always harder when you're away from home.

Sounds like some of the arguments, I mean discussions that go on here :-) Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 15:36:23 (ZULU)

Pete L,

"Anyway, we should have adopted the Brit 280 and not the Yank .308 as a NATO round."

yeah - Shouda, Coulda, Woulda....... If if's and but's were candy and nuts - we'd all have a merry Christmas!!! Seriously, what were the spec's on that Brit .280? Wasn't it very close to the 7-08Rem? If so, what would the so-called 'advantages' over the .308 be?

This is still a Tactical Rifle site, at least I thought it was! I've said it before and I'll say it again for the last time - The .30-'06 is my favorite elk rifle, and has been for over three decades. While I'm making myself clear - and this is for you Euros - our North American elk is really an animal known as the Wapiti! What you refer to as an elk in Europe is actually in the same family as our moose, a game animal that is easier to hunt and to kill than the Wapiti!

Don K,

I don't for one second doubt the veracity of your velocity claims as to what your load is doing out of your barrel. I just think that you've either got a 'fast' barrel, and there are such things (ask JR), or you're way over safe pressure. Even the manufacturer of the powder that you're using says so!

As to your mention of Tactical Shooting as a civilian sport, that's very true. And it's also true that certain people are gaming it up to the point that it may barely resemble the sort of shooting that it is supposed to emulate! Check out the background of ISPC for a reality check. Now the gamers are trying to do the same to IDPA. They should be ashamed of themselves. Thirty lb. rifles, eighteen inch long scopes with 56mm objectives, and overpressure loads do not belong in Tactical Rifle Competition, IMO! Those rigs can compete in 'F class', 'any-any', or LRBR classes.

Those thinly disguised full-bore competition rifles can be weeded out in a Tactical Rifle Competition by the mandatory inclusion of a vigorous hump followed by a demanding stalk in every event. The tricked-up oversensitive rifles and the highly stressed overpressure ammo can be effectively discouraged by instituting a "one malfunction - you're dead" rule.

IMO, overloading any cartridge in an attempt to approach the performance of a faster but normally loaded one doesn't fit into the spirit of a Tactical or Sniper Competition, and therefore is 'gaming'.

Jeff,

Legalities of setting up a range in Colorado? If you're not attempting to open a shooting range as a business, or open yours to the general public, there aren't many regulations to worry about.

Make sure that the land that you're considering is zoned grazing/heavy agricultural. Verify that any surrounding parcels are zoned the same and are not on the block as development properties and do not have petitions for zoning changes up in front of the County Zoning (or Planning) Commission. Check that the minimum distance from your firing line to a public road is observed, and make sure that any bullets shot on your property stay on your property. "The Fort" can be a pretty anti-gun PC area!

I live in Colorado, shoot up to 100yds. on my residential property, am a member of a local club with a membership-only range, and along with six other citizens lease grazing land from two ranchers for our long range shooting.

Pat,

Many thanks for the 6mm/250 update. IMO, if only one half grain of powder puts a load over maximum in a hurry, that load is already over maximum! Please keep us informed, it's appreciated.

All,

I hope that I'm not giving anyone the impression that I'm a saftey nanny. I'm only concerned with maintaing as close to perfect functionality in a load that's destined for Tactical use, be it in competition or life and death situations. Far be it for me to interfere with an individuals right to blow up his stick (or himself) in the privacy of his own 'danger zone'.

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 17:04:42 (ZULU)

Alan,

Thanks for the advice. We've been looking at property a little north of FtC (towards Livermore). The commute to work will be rough, but worth it to get a little breathing room. The parcels of land we're looking at are all 35+ acres, so keeping the rounds on our property might even happen. The property is also zoned to allow horses, so I'm guessing it will be considered "grazing/agricultural" but I'll make sure to check.

As to opening the range to the "general public"... not sure that would happen, but if there were long-range shooters in the area without a nearby range... well, now, I was always taught to share ;)

Jeff

Jeff C
NB, Canada - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 17:45:53 (ZULU)

Alan..

I guess I need to clear up something that I may have misstated. When we were cronographing loads we were loading at the top end of the loading data we were supplied.

The data we had listed the loads from mild to medium to hot. We were in the med to hot area and there were loads where a half of a grain put us from a med to a hot load in his rifle.

Pat
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 17:46:19 (ZULU)

Gents,

Alan alluded to the toughness of our Wapiti (no, you didn't just run over an Italian!).

I agree, 100%. The 30/06 has a splendid reputation on these animals, but many consider it "not enough gun". Lot's of .300 mag (and up) shooters. Many use a .375 H &H.

Personally, I use a .35 Whelan Ackley Improved. A 250 grain bullet at about 2,550 to 2,600 from my custom 23" Krieger barrel. I consider it the best of all worlds for hunting Rooseveldt Elk.

We also have Rocky Mountain Elk over east.

You hunt our west coast terrain and get a HUNT! No stands, etc. Primarily stalking and shooting w/in several hundred yards down to point blank...a great time. All we need is an indiginous boar population and we'd be good to go, huh, Pete?

More later. Cleaning up and heading to the range. LOVE weekday's off!

On the rotational spin thread...don't bullets spin the other way in the southern hemisphere? Rick? Always shoot south...?

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 18:38:41 (ZULU)

Don K..

I have to agree with the rest of the guys, your definately pushing the envelope with that much velocity. If memory serves me correctly I think max with the 190s was in the neighborhood of around 2750fps.

I used to shoot my 300WM at 2950 with the 190s. Also the 6.5x284 is not an overbore. Once again if memory serves me correctly the perfect case cap. for the 6.5 is actually a 257 Roberts Imp. The 284 case is just a tad bigger and works quite well with the 6.5 bullets.

Your round count is also off by a bunch. You should be able to get 2500 to 3000rds out of one if you don't burn them down. I had 1400 through mine and it was just starting to show some throat wear when JR scoped it for me.

I shoot tactical matches and still think the best all around caliber is the 308. You can use the hot rods for an edge but you pay for it in barrels, I know I have done it. I don't want to see the tactical matches go the way of IPSC shooting and it will, unless the match organizers do something to handicap the "Super" guns.

Pat
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 19:44:57 (ZULU)

Rick You wrote "the normal spin on the 175 is 1 moa at 1000yds"

don't you mean drift?

This spin drift thing has me wondering what forces act on a bullet in flight:drag,gravity,gyroscopic procession,lift.

Question? would the rough surface of a bullet fired from a barrel with a right hand twist produce enough lift to alter the path of that bullet to the left.

Joe S What is the active chemical in Slip 2000?

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 19:54:54 (ZULU)

It seems that alot of guys here can't get beyond seeing 50 year old M2 ball or hunting ammo when they think of a 30-06. I am not the only one using this particular load, nor am I the only one who believes that the '06 with the slow powders we currently have available is safely capable of performance well beyond the .308 in a Tactical rifle. Instead of surmising that I have a "fast" barrel or that my load is "way over safe pressure", why don't you carefully work up a load using Lapua brass, 190SMK's, and RL22? Also, you may want to check out the following thread on Sniper's Hide:

http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000646

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 20:13:19 (ZULU)

Wes, Portuguese headshots? You?

Alan, not wanting to urinate in your oatmeal, but this is how I see it:

The 30-06 is approximately 10% more capacity than the 308. The 300 Win Mag is about 10% larger than the 30-06.

Likewise, the 260 Rem is a well-known quantity. The 6.5X284 is a well-known quantity. If you split the difference capacity wise, you’ve got the 6.5 that Hexa shoots, and it too is a well-known quantity. I think you’re completely right when you say that pushing upper pressure limits will not buy you anything ballistically over the magnum, but a gaming sign placed around your neck. But at the same time I’d say that the old ’06 should be worth an increase from the 308 to be called a half-magnum. As far as wear goes, we know what a 300 Win Mag will wear out at. We also know what it takes to wear out 308 barrels. Logically, unless you’re gaming the 30-06, you ought to get a barrel life approximately half way between the 308 and the 300 Win Mag. To prove my point, I’ve gamed a cartridge or two in my time, and come to the conclusion that it’s better to download a larger case. More powder for the same velocity, but that’s just part of it. For example, now I go with the larger cartridge in most all cases, unless it makes me flinch. As CDC says, (Smiley face here.) (Smiley face here.) Case efficiency is a whole other topic, but I’ve proven to myself that it does exist: same bullet, same velocities, less powder in a smaller case. To a point, I see no detriment as far as pressure goes, but that stops at gaming the smaller capacity. So now that I’ve showed you the money, can I see yours? I promise I’ll give it right back. Really. Again, smiley face here.

Pat, thanks for the info. I figured that you would hit that as about the max, but it’s always good to get real-world information from someone whose integrity and competence you don’t have to question.

4is: maybe I’m missing something here, but what benefit is there to having a double action? Maybe I’m the nay-sayer, but double actions belong on revolvers. As to your club question, that’s really up to the individual club. Some are more harsh on gamers than others. Most in that organization prefer being harsh on gamers, they term it a failure to do right, with associated penalties.

Mike, so you had a case of spin drift? You keep talking about stuff in 408, and draw that guy back, I’ll send spin drift back to your place and charge you for the taxi fare too!

Spin drift. If it’s there, and with what Rick says, I’m sure it is, I’m not good enough to sort it out from the wind. Maybe that’s my problem. I keep thinking I misjudged the wind all this time. I’ve just self-promoted to wind reading guru, screwed up intermittently by failed spin drift calls! I like it, and my self esteem has skyrocketed. Now where’s my wind reading merit badge?

Jaeger
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 20:58:37 (ZULU)

Pat wrote:

“I don't want to see the tactical matches go the way of IPSC shooting and it will, unless the match organizers do something to handicap the "Super" guns.”

I have the same concern but don’t want to see any equipment restrictions because that stifles development. The key to controlling the arms race is in the hands of the match designers, it always has been. IPSC went the way it did because the match designers allowed the stages of fire to mutate into something that favored the High-Cap, Dot-Sight, compensator types.

If the match designers produce stages of fire that honestly represent plausible real-world shooting scenarios then “real-world” gear will evolve to meet the test. If the test gets “out-of-this-world” then that’s where the gear will go. Any match should have a good mix of shooting problems so that no single design can have an overwhelming advantage.

Oh well, it will be what it will be. What the customers demand will be what gets provided. It is the law of the market place.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 20:59:56 (ZULU)

Jeff,

If you're considering a move north of Ft.Collins and will need to commute to work on I70 keep in mind that this hiway is frequently closed by the State Patrol between the Fort and Cheyenne due to very high winds and blowing snow. Check out the gates on the entrance ramps and the snow fences on the sides of the road! Development has been very slow in this area for this reason, which is great for some and bad for the (commuting) others. Also please consider the fact that the wind never seems to stop blowing - hard. Check out the lack of trees. Not too great for LR shooting, but you'll learn to dope the wind;-)

I wouldn't worry about having invited guests at your range, but if you're going to maintain an open range policy you should start investigating the possibility of County permits and the need for liability insurance. This is a litigious world we live in:-((

Wes (Sir Luddite),

"... don't bullets spin the other way in the southern hemisphere?" - Only if you flush;-)

The old standard of a 180gr. bullet at 2700fps MV as minimum for elk still holds true. I think that those old hands knew what they were talking about, even if it was 50 years ago. Here in Colorado there is no legal hunting of this game animal using the drive, dogs, from stands, or over bait. We stalk or still-hunt, and because of the distances often encountered the larger caliber slower moving heavy bullets are not as popular here, but hunters that stick to the black timber sure do love them.

Pat,

Thanks for the clarification on cartridge pressures. I understand you now. I'm glad that you share my feelings about the gaming of the shooting sports. It's wonderful when the sponsors of an event award high dollar prizes to the winners, but the "factory teams" ruin the competition for the others who are not pros and who do not have their resources. Many hobbies (NASCAR, NHRA racing, etc.) started as weekend fun by amateurs and evolved into full-time big money avocations. Not so good for most competitors, great for the sponsors and the media. The little guys that start the whole thing get left along the way!

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 21:41:31 (ZULU)

Don K..

Reloader 22 and many of the other new slower powders still show a MV of 2750 as the max for the loading data. I understand that its safe to go beyond some of these loads but I would be willing to bet that 2900fps is really maxing out an 06. You,I guess, would be the true judge of that by the amount of rounds you get from your brass.

Kevin..

Well said, my partner and I were talking on one of the breaks at SQ-3 saying these matches should be like golf, have a caddy with a couple of different rifle an scope combos for each stage. Now this looks like a 6.5x284 shot with a long green an the wind breaking to the right...(HA).

Jaeger..

Glad to help out, but I don't feel I really shed much light on our discussion yet other than the fact that they do shoot well. I hope to be able to get my crono checked out soon.

I just don't trust it right now but it may be fine and the 6-250s do shoot faster than we think. I do think the mid to high 2900s will be the limit for accuracy and case life. I know with my 6.5x284 there wasn't a nickles worth of difference in wind drift from 2950 to 3000fps.

Pat
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 21:43:17 (ZULU)

Jaeger,

You're not pissing in my oatmeal, I don't even eat the stuff. It is possible that I didn't explain myself or you didn't completely understand my posts.

I'm not at all trying to suggest that the '06 is not capable of higher MVs than the .308 when both are loaded to similar pressures. The '06 has traditionally been 100 to 200fps faster, especially with the heavier bullets. No argument here from me!

I'm not at all sure that you can measure barrel life from one cartridge to the other as an evenly growing progression, but that's not my intended artgument anyway. Sure, the .300WM barrels burn out faster than the .308 and the .30-'06 when all are loaded to accepted pressures, but I'm not so sure how the '06 does when loaded way over pressure. Velocity and throat temperature, etc.

The point that I've been trying to make is that a .30-'06/190 driven to 2900fps+ by Re22 powder is either dangerously overpressure (Alliants own figures) or the barrel of that particular test rifle is very 'fast'. The first is dangerous , wears the equipment prematurely, and is probably not as accurate as it could be with a few grains less powder, the second premise is also bad if just because it's not easily and reliably repeatable for every shooter that wishes to try it, including the poster. Anecdotal evidence notwithstanding!

And that's my money;-))

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 22:09:58 (ZULU)

Couple things:

1. Who's going to Perry?

2. What's the barrel length on this 30-06 we're discussing?

3. Limiting growth due to artificial rules on gear simply causes people to do other silly crap. I refer you to NASCAR engines at $40K each for a crappy smallblock Chevy if you doubt me. There are better cartridges for certain things, the military and LE have artificial limits placed on us, and we get by and do as much as we can with what we have but that doesn't mean it's the best way.

4. Why do people have this seemingly genetic need for .308 diameter bullets?

5. Anyone played with the 225gn .338cal Nosler Accubonds yet? BC is said to be .550 with a bonded core. One of these at +/- 2700fps from a rifle with a good can would really be nice for all sorts of things. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 22:29:10 (ZULU)

Youse guys,

spin drift..hah..this really has become an annual festivity, right on time, like clockwork..

Pat,

good to see you 'round..Thought you may have ended up in Oz with Dorothy and Toto with all dem tornadoes in SoDak...

Pete,

Oh sure, like I really ask how much tooling costs...What do I look like, an accountant? I just order, and I receive..hahah, never crossed my mind.. think we get 'em trade price, I'll find out..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 22:40:13 (ZULU)

Miller Get down and give me 50! Penalty for mentioning you know what!

1. Mentioning you know what =50.

2. Mentioning spin drift= 25

3. Mentioning sheep= 5

4. Mentioning Ruuug... =10

5. Mentioning Leupold Turrets= 30

6. Mentioning Sheperd Scopes 15

7. Mentioning hatred for Democrats= Free Beer

Brogers
Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 22:41:34 (ZULU)

Ken M,

I believe that Don K mentioned a 26" barrel in this case.

Artificial rules? Define artificial! No crew-served weapons? Then what about gun bearers (caddies) and a full selection of rifles for every circumstance a competitor might encounter?

IMO, there has to be reasonable (read realistic) limits imposed on equipment in a Sniper or Tactical Competition, otherwise it becomes an equipment race, limited mostly by the $. The genre will never survive that!

Your use of NASCAR as an example is not a good analogy. People cheat, it's only human nature. One example is the late Smokey Yunik. He stored nitrous oxide in the tubing of his rollcage and piped it into the engine. He got caught and was punished. If not, the next gamer would no doubt tried nitromethane! Smokey also built a 3/5 size Chevy one year to get one over on all of those who were running legal cars. They got wise, and that led to the use of the mandatory templates you see in use today.

The engines are necessarily restricted now because advances in technology caused them to make so much power that the vehicle speeds exceeded the ability of the tracks to handle them safely. Drivers were getting killed left and right, and whos to guess how many more would not be alive today if it wasn't for these restrictions!

The $40K cost of todays small block Chevrolet NASCAR racing engine is cheap when compared to the engine costs in other venues. And ther're cheap because of - guess what - NASCAR rules regulating the type of parts that are legal to put into these engines in an effort to keep teams competitive by holding down costs. What true racing engines are cheaper?

Why the .308 diameter? Aside from the fact that it works? As long as bullets are made with a lead core and a copper jacket the .308 dia. offers a very good compromise in BC and sectional density. There are other bullet diameters that do as well, but what's wrong with good ol' Yankee tradition?

I do not advocate stifiling progress, but we all have rules and regulations that we must live by in this society, same as we do in rifle competition. That's all that I mean!

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 00:20:45 (ZULU)

Rich S.- Hmmmmm now that you mentioned it I went and looked on the jar. It doesn't have anything listed. It says it's biodegradable, non-toxic, non-flamable and non-hazardous...but no specifcs. By the smell I'm betting it's one of those citrus oil based products, like CitrusStirp. I just tried it again on my AR-10T bolt after about 200 rounds and it worked like magic.

My new Badger rings are here, my new Badger rings are here !!!! YAAAHOOOO! God I love the sound of the big brown truck in front of my house, it always brings good stuff =).

Stay safe,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 00:30:31 (ZULU)

Alan,

Tried to hit you offline with this, but your e-mail bounced.

Well, I certainly won't complain about getting practice doping wind... guess I can always blame the "dope" behind the trigger instead of the "jerk" ;)

But, having lived my whole life in Canada (southern Ontario and New Brunswick) -- except a couple years in the Caribbean -- I've gotten pretty used to snow. As long as the highway is open, I've got no problem driving it. And if they close it, my boss will understand. Being employed in IT, I just have to make sure I've got an Internet connection up. (And even that's optional fmost of the time...)

I do hear what you're saying about the commute, the wind and the snow, though. I'm just not sure that I want to live in FtC, where the realtors describe 1/2 acre as a "huge lot!"... I like a little more elbow room than that.

Jeff

Jeff C
NB, Canada - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 00:38:23 (ZULU)

CDC,

Email inbound - clean

"Archery Stuff"

Greg G
Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 00:40:27 (ZULU)

Guys,

If you've never seen the United States Military Academy it's awesome. I actually stood at Custers' grave today!!! What a collection of history. New York city tomorrow Nite...watch out!!

John (Acehigh)

John
West Point, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 03:33:58 (ZULU)

OK from the mouth of babes (and she is a babe)...My german girl was listening to me and my buds talk about shooting. After we were done she asked me what we meant by "dope" so I explained it to her. Then the biggie question..."why do they call it dope?" With a sudden hard hitting reality check I realized I didn't know the origin of the phrase "dope" as it pertains to shooting. Not again...I had to make up a lie right there on the spot.

Anybody? Bueler?, Bueler?

Just wondering.

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 03:54:34 (ZULU)

Joe; perhaps it's derived from sailing. You would dope the sails or compensate your course by doping the course. Means to allow for the wind. I dunno. Beats hell out of me!

Brogers
Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 04:12:38 (ZULU)

Alan, I can get a good fuel motor(496CI KB Hemi) for about $30K and make 10 times the HP of that Chevy;)

The way you beat the gamey fags is proper course design. I'm an IDPA SO and I hate gamers, but a Bible like rulebook about gear is not the path. I know a 10km land nav course, a ruck run and maybe break contact drills are hard on the out of shape guys, but that's a damn simple way to make sure the rifle is useful. As for calibers, well, how about multiple target drills. Make that magnum shooter work for his money. Sometimes better gear is simply a better way of doing things. I'm not writing off the 308 yet, that's why I'm playing with the 155 Scenars, but there are other ways too.

Oh, and step on cheaters hard. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 05:02:57 (ZULU)

Alan, from notes made on my Basic Armourer course ref British cartridge developement:

The 280 British ( 7x43) was basicaly developed to find the perfect round for use in an assault rifle, the desire was for an assault rifle with select fire capacity, the ability to be fired on automatic from the shoulder was recognised during WW2 with the effectiveness of the Sub-machinegun bieng noted, however where the sub gun was limmited to short range, the .303 was considered over powered for most infantry contacts, the 30-06 and the 303 where both over powered for effective use as asault rifle calibers, The need for an intermediate round was recognised, the Russians had the 7.62x39( the Germans had had the 7.92 Kurz) the need for longer range performance was considered secondary to the requirement for volume of fire. Hence the Brits began R&D of what was considered to be just the job for an assault rifle cartridge. The bullpup experimental rifle the EM2 (and Em1) where designed around this cartridge. Specs where as follows.

a . 280 cal(7mm)139gr(140gr) spitzer bullet at an Mv of between 2450fps and 2550fps.( falling some what short of the 7mm08 by the way, but from a shorter case)

Use of this round where invisaged as bieng in an assault rifle and also in a light machine gun or squad automatic weapon, with perhaps an effective range of 600m.

For use in GPMG's and sniper rifles a more powerful cartridge was bieng thought of, the .276 Enfield, firing a 165gr 7mm spitzer bullet at a Mv of around 2800 fps, anyway with the adoption as the 7.62x51 as the Nato cartridge of choice all this developement became a dead end. The EM2 couldn't be easily re worked for the longer case and so the EM2 project was stopped and the Brits bought into the FN Fal. We all know the rest and it is history.

Thats about all i can tell you about the 280 Brit, IMHO the 7.62x51 is a better machinegun cartridge and has proved adequate as a sniper cartridge, the 280 Brit would have been better assault rifle fodder though.

Ref the Wapiti, Elk = Wapiti. Elch = Moose. the ElK and Elch are pronounced differently.

An just let me say that i absolutely love to stalk game on foot, i ain't a fan of high seats or tree stands, if i can foot stalk i will, thats why i love going to Scotland. Problem here is the amount of bloody people and buildings in close proximity to anywhere you hunt means that from a safety point of view it is advantagouse to shoot down hill, it gives you a back stop every time. And baiting pigs and shooting em or driving em to waiting guns is the only reliable way to cull pigs here.

Should i get the chance to hunt Elk one day, you can bet that i'll be carrying my 30-06 loaded up with a bullet thats up to the job.a 30 cal bullet in the right place is a 30 cal bullet in the right place, if you can destroy the vitals with it, then it don't much matter wether it came out of a magnum, an 06 or whatever, providing you know its limitations of what you are using and stay within those limitations, with correct shot placement you'll do ok. (Unless of course that is, it'll be in heavey timber, then it'll be the 450 Marlin i'm carrying. ) Pete L

Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 11:06:58 (ZULU)

Max Boot on securing victories. History has forced us in to the business of "Nation Building". We have no choice but to get good at it. As yet, we haven't:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/867lqbsv.asp

July 9 is the day of massive protest in Iran. The Mullahs are using censorship, thugs and violent repression. This could get real hot, real quick.

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen070903.asp

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-dayanim070803.asp

Reporters have discovered that soldiers gripe. Stop the presses, we have a page one lead!

http://www.washtimes.com/national/pruden.htm

CDC'
Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 14:33:07 (ZULU)

Ken..

I couldn't agree with you more on the matches and what your saying. The problem is when you put those kindof things into a match you loose the competitors.

The first couple of years the D&L match was brutal on man and equiptment but because of complaints from competitors he kept backing off on it until it became just another longrange match. Its still a good match but nothing like it was.

It has went from three cross country rifle courses down to one. He has also cut the ranges back on some of the targets. I understand that its a compermise and they need to make money so they need competitors.

Someone said that civilians are going to dominate these matches and they will, if they are made to be "Shooting" matches and not "Tactical" matches. Most civilians are not in good enough shape to compete in a three day tactical match, esp. if your in your 40s or 50s.

However, if you make it a match where there is little running or physical activity, other than walking to an from the shooting position, the civilians will spank your young asses.

They shoot a lot more, usually have better equiptment and spend a lot of time an money trying to get better at it because its their hobby.

So what it boils down to is, if the matches are to get enough people at them the people putting them on will have to "Back off" on the physical stuff. Then when you take that out you give rise to super guns an equiptment becoming the deciding factor.

I shot the first couple of matches with a 308 and didn't do bad but the guys winning were using 300WMs and 6.5x284s. When your shooting at a bunch of targets that are only 14"x14" at 900 and a 1000+ yds its easy to see that those two calibers would have an advantage not to mention the wind factor.

The problem is that part of his courses involved speed shooting, not a good thing with the 300WM but the 6.5x284 was fine other than junking out a barrel in one match with temps in the 100 degree range. Now if your a factory team or a "Rich" civilian this is no problem. I, however, could not afford to keep doing it, even though I was winning a rifle barrel a match.

I don't know what the answer is, I do really enjoy the matches, no matter what kind they are. I just wish they would have started these things when I was 27 instead of 57!!!!

Pat
Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 14:46:56 (ZULU)

Ken M, I'll be going to LR week at Perry. One of my coworkers asked me if I was likely to win, and I just had the best laugh while trying to choke out "Hell no!" He just could not figure out why I was smiling.

Good times there, am looking forward to seeing lots of people.

John L

John Leveron
Mid MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 15:08:57 (ZULU)

BK Nsain: Heavy works for me, it helps smooth out all my screw-ups in trigger pull ; )

My Gold Cup and BHP are still in the safe and I am wearing a Glock right now (see we can all get along) ; )

I have noticed I pull the first shot about 6" low due to the long ass dbl.action pull. Does anybody know a good drill/exercise to limit this? Yeah I know "shoot a single action" ; )

Seriously without Sig and Glock we would have no new homes for old stamped metal and TupperWare that wont seal anymore.

Now I know what the attraction is, it's just the grumpy old toolmaker in me.

CDC, one mans wart is anothers beauty mark ; )

Jaeger, the benefit is all pee syco logical ; ) I just feel hinky carrying with a cocked hammer, I know, I know 3 safeties etc. Its all in my head, but hey, its my head ; )

What true racing engines are cheaper? SCCA showroom stock,formula vee,formula mazda, spec racer, should I go on?

FatLad, which SCCA region did you compete in?

Im so old I can remember when racing was dangerous, and sex was safe!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 15:14:59 (ZULU)

Ken M,

I agree with your position on course design, but Pat makes a very good point. I don't pretend to know the answer either.

"I can get a good fuel motor (496CI KB Hemi) for about $30K and make 10 times the HP of that Chevy;)".

Not to belabor the point but -

1)The $40K quoted for the NASCAR engine includes everything necessary to hook up the hoses and wiring and fire her up. If I'm correct, the $30K that you mentioned for the Keith Black Hemi does not include the ignition system (two magnetos, mag drive, ign wiring, etc.) nor does it include the dry sump oil pump and lines, and most importantly the fuel injection system (including injector 'hat' assy, fuel pumps, lines and hoses, and pump drive), and the blower system (including the supercharger and its manifold and the blower drive assembly). The cost of the KB ratchets up quickly when it is 'ready to fire-up and run'.

2)The NASCAR engine, barring any unforseen problems that can occur with any race engine, will run a bunch of qualifying laps and a 500 mile race before needing any attention. All Top Fuel Dragster (or Funny Car) motors will complete a burn out of several hundred feet plus a run of one quarter mile and require a major teardown and parts replacement after this ONE RUN, costing thousands of dollars in parts alone! Which engine is REALLY cheaper?

3)It looks as if we're comparing a service rifle to a hand grenade even if we consider the KB Hemi at your quoted $30K and the NASCAR smallblock at $40K. The grenade will give you more bang for your buck....once!

Pete L,

The Elk and the Moose. The way that they tell the story on this side of the ocean is that when the Europeans came to the New World and got their first sight of the Wapiti they knew that the animal was somehow in the Deer family, but much larger. Having no other frame of reference but the European Elch, they gave it that name, one which sticks to this day!

CDC,

I've got a solution to the Iranian situation. Send all of the Mullahs to Singapore for some surgery!!!

4i's,

Yeah, go on! But first start by naming REAL racing engines!!

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 16:05:28 (ZULU)

First Double Action Shot Low:

4i's, without really knowing any more about your shooting I would say that the reason the first shot is low is because the trigger is being jerked. It is more of a reaction to the trigger finger tightening and your grip tightening at the same time. It tends to pull the sights out of alignment with the muzzle dropping, hence low shot. With revolvers I used to practice squeezing the trigger until the tip of the trigger finger would just touch the frame without causing the hammer to fall. This meant that the grip was adjusted to where the trigger would fit into the first joint of the trigger finger. What this would do is give you a split second to verify the sights were properly aligned before you continued the last bit of the squeeze causing the hammer to fall while the sights are aligned correctly. I can't seem to do with with semi-auto's because I have smaller hands and the frames on the auto's are larger. I would suggest trying to slow down the first shot just a tad as you check the sight alignment before applying the final few ounces of pull.

Open to other suggestions, LATER!

Byron
CA, USA - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 16:25:41 (ZULU)

Guys,

Do a Google search on 'Weapons of Mass Destruction', click on the 'I'm feeling lucky'...and read what comes up...good stuff, ha!

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 17:11:46 (ZULU)

Spin-drift and NASCAR..........OK.. who brought the Busch-Lite?

HEY!! Where'd that spin-drift post disappear to?

Duman
Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 19:23:30 (ZULU)

4's Are you shooting the Glock when the shot goes low? The double action bit confused me. Is yours a Generation 3 with the finger grooves? This seems to help place the first shot a little more accurate. Getting the left index finger on the trigger guard can cause trouble either model. If it's not quite there yet you may pull slightly down due to the shape of the Glock safety trigger. If your shooting one handed (as in quick as possible)it's bound to be a grip thing.

Brogers
Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 20:33:51 (ZULU)

A while back, George Gardner mentioned that he was pushing the Laupa 155 gr scenar at some pretty impressive velocities to make it track to one of the Leupold cams for 300wm.... has anyone taken the time to model out what target MV would cause the 155 Scenar to track close to the trajectory of one of the leupold magnum cams?

This is something I would thnk Lito might know off the top of his head...

While we are at it, anyone got good dope on the 142 or 140 gr 6.5 projectile running in the 2700 to 2800 fps range... does it come close to one of the 300 wm cams?

medicjim
Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 21:01:38 (ZULU)

Alan, not to turn this into Top Fuel Country, but if you're hanging about the tracks at the end of the year when team's sponserships start running out, you can get the whole enchilada motor for $30K'ish if you ain't dog ugly and obnoxious. From hat to pan. It ain't gonna be the latest state of the art, but it'll be good enough. Been a long time since I hung about the tracks, but I don't imagine much has changed. It's 180 degrees from what a NASCAR motor does, but different sport.

I think the main problem with this stuff is money. You start giving away big amounts of loot and you bring out all the assholes. It's what killed IPSC. NRA highpower has always been a losing money game and we've never really had the problem of gear wars, even with the types who change calibers every year. If you suck, even with a $3000 el super blammo magnum, ain't no amount of money gonna make you win unless you get your ass out to the range and do the work.

Guess maybe we'll have to have sniper matchs and then tactical matches. 80% of what we do is not shooting. I know you're not going to get to call CAS or arty to MCCRES standards at a match, but you can focus on the other things too. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 21:50:27 (ZULU)

Guys, Guys, Guys!!!! :-) :-) Did you know the Miranda Rights had been REVISED??? NO...well here are the revised rights if you hadn't seen them:

Miranda Rights (Revised)

You have the right to swing first. However, if you choose to swing first, any move you make, can, and will, be used as an excuse to beat the shit out of you.

You have the right to have a doctor and a priest present. If you can not afford a doctor, or if not presently attending a church of your choice, one will be appointed for you.

DO you inderstand what I just told you ASSHOLE?

Rumor has it that this originally started in the DEEP South and has SLOWLY been working towards the coasts!

HEE - :-)

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 22:39:08 (ZULU)

KenM right on tha spot. "You start giving away big amounts of loot and you bring out all the assholes." We used to have coyote calling contests out in this part of the country. Just a bunch of callers who liked getting together. We had a pot usually about $200 bucks and then the money got started. Calcuttas were rampant. Last time I went to one, a 60mph wind came up about 30 minutes after sun rise and blew till sunset. Everybody showed up with one or two road kills either shot or ran over but this one dude. Everybody else had pine needles and sage brush all over em not to mention the red eyes and sand burrs in their hair. Not M.R. Dude. He looked like he just did the back up disk for the bank computer, in his Cabella's fashion of the year camo's. 6 Yotes he claimed he'd killed. Course his judge (guide he requested) was about 75 and never got out of the truck. "This guy is good! ", he said, "He just parks and goes over the hill and in 5 minutes he's back with a perfectly shot coyote!" I looked and they all were shot right through the ticker. He sure as hell was good. Investigation showed he hunted a ranch outside of the assigned area where I knew a trap line existed. I know cause I killed one of the poor bastards there the week before with his foot nearly chewed off cause nobody came to check the damn trap. He WAS good though cause he won in Wyoming the year before! And of course bought himself in the Calcutta.

Brogers
Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 23:02:32 (ZULU)

Geeze, Spindrift and Nascar????? Duman, how about some Natural Lite for that crowd.

Now that I'm loitering in the SoCal area for the few months before I go back to Okinwaw, where are the good (or not so good if that's all there is) long ranges in the San Diego/LA area?

Gotta get some seroius shootin done before I go back to the land of the little people.

LAter Hawgs

Kush out

Kush
El Centro, Ca, it's 115 and the phroggs are roasting - Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 23:36:22 (ZULU)

Kush- There is the Pala Indian reservation range in North San Diego County. It's good to about a 1000 yds. I think they shoot on Sundays and the first time is free as a guest but from then on you need to be a member. I don't get there that often. In South San Diego county is the South Bay Rod and Gun Club, in Dulzura. It's open all the time and goes to 300 yds. $15 bucks for all day if your not a member. $50 a year for membership. It's probably the most used in the area and hosts several NRA matches. There is the Fish and Game ranges in North and South San Diego county. Only 100 yds.

If you are heading this way let me know and I'll get you directions.

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 00:55:43 (ZULU)

Tactical matches;

Unfortunately, anything that has money in it gets turned crooked, be it game calling, rifle matches, racing, etc. The only way to keep everything legit is rules/regulations enforcement. This, however, takes the spirit away from the event. Take the money away and then the only people doing it is the ones who do it out of genuine interest, those are the ones who count anyway. Other than that, I don't know what to do.

You could limit the equipment race. Make a standard for the rifle/scope and gear. The rifle could be under a certain weight, built on a commercial action (Savage, Remington, Winchester, Styer, etc.) to keep out the target rifles(the military/police don't use RPAs or Anshutz's), barrel length 20-26 inches, use a synthetic stock,readily available caliber(military/police don't use wildcats), ammo has to fit in magazine,limit on objective size and scope length.

You could make it somewhat physical. Have a short march before the match. Go out to the farthest target and back or around the range area. It need not be all that far, around a mile(1760 yards) will do. However, you have to take all of your gear with you. If you don't carry it, you don't use it! That should be enough to get most people's hearts to pounding without being overly physical.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 01:44:02 (ZULU)

Joe S.>>>> I live here in Hemet CA. N. of you in Riverside Co. i've been shooting at the Hemet Police Range with Sarg. friend on the Riverside Sheriff's, the range is only 75 yard's at the most, it's fine for combat & tact. shooting with AR 15's, shotgun's, handgun's, but !!! for scoped rifle's it dont get it done !! the 1,000 yard's at Pala Res. sound's great, if you could send info. on the range we would be grateful, if your up around Hemet sometime let me know, your welcome to shoot with us, thanks >>>> Don >>> zcree@msn.com

Don Rutledge
Hemet, CA, U.S.A. - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 02:47:26 (ZULU)

I guess it's hard to eliminate the gaming without suppressing the advance of the technology. The science often suffers when rules get too strict. Black powder technology is a case in point. States have season's and rules for limiting the technology but in spite of all that somebody now has hatched a 250 yard BP system that rivals smokeless powder. Pistol Silouette produced knats ass groups from something thought before to be range limited. An attempt to limit rules even at the point of "state of the art" only wind up being yesterday's wine. It always happens. Cowboy shooting has survived in part but still there are those who seek ridiculously low recoil to get a small advantage even in that sport. The most curious to me is how many states don't allow 15th century crossbows for hunting, that are far surpassed by today's bow technology, not to mention those lock back bow shooting devices.

Brogers
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 04:55:11 (ZULU)

Guys to the point ! Spin-Drift, is this a concern with small calibers? I could see maybe with large artillery shells?( Long range- Miles!)

Thats it, I really don't believe this theory with small arms.!!!

Sorry for the fight :)

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 05:27:15 (ZULU)

Spin drift is a part of the flight of the bullet. It happens and it happens the same way every time a round is fired. WHen you get a zero at a certain distance spin drift is part of the zero. SO DONT WORRY ABOUT IT.

I shoot at 700 yards in no wind. I need a certain sight setting to hit at that distance. That sight setting compensates for spin drift at that distance just like it compensates for bullet drop! WOrrying about spin drift is like worry about the attitude the bullet is flying in. Who gives a shit?

OUt here

Gooch
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 06:46:06 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Thanks for the to point answer ! :)

Your answer was what I was thinking about the flight of the bullet, plus not really to worry about this topic.........

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 06:56:51 (ZULU)

Gents,

Gooch-san, so much for spin drift theory! Well, said. Guess we can put that one to bed. Wonder what we'll ponder next?

Gaming: Had a compadre that went to one of the early D & L Sports shoots. Put a real hurt on him, but it it was realistic. Now it's more of a marksmanship/equipment race. Of course the winning rifle is built by D & L Sports! Which brings me back to my comments on "rifles with roll bars"...

I like good equipment, as well as the next guy, but ALL of mine could be taken afield and used in it's proper context. Real world type stuff. No "lights in the wheel wells"...

Anyone notice that .338 match bullets are a bit hard to come by all of a sudden?

Back to duty on the 'morrow. See what fun and games abound.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 08:07:20 (ZULU)

Was at the range yesterday, i'd swapped the warne mounts on my 2.5-10x56 to get it mounted a bit lower on my 308 because one of the guys is going to use it in Scotland, goddamn rings must be so badly machined/cast i got all way over to the right with the adjustment before i got the thing on the mark, with the other taller set of warne rings i had no probs, can't say i noticed a problem when the rings where holding the aimpoint on the marlin though, maybe i'll check where the adjustments had got to on the aimpoint. No probs with the 06 though, you just can't beat those badger rings, they are just a bit hefty for use on a lever gun, have to get some more and relegate the warne stuff to the marlin, they where a make do untill i make my mind up what i want to mount exactly where anyway. Frustrating at the range though.

Went out to the woods last night, stalked about a little bit, saw a red patch of hairy skin and stalked it, turned out to be a doe accompanied by 2 kids, stalked through to the meadow and there was a deer at the other side, but it was in a patch of nettles, crawled all the way to the other side before i could see it was another doe. Got sat up my stand and waited, hadn't been there a half hour when grunt squeel here come some pigs, a sow and 4 piglets, still day light, great, got some good photos, they ragged the hell out of my beer barrel feeder for nearly an hour, the sow got her nose under the barrel and flipped it up in the air, it landed on top of one of the piglets, hilarious as hell,the little sod got flattened, then it picked its self up and ran round in circles squeeling its ass of, the flash of the camera didn't bother them much, the sow would run of occasionaly but she came back, she was only a young sow though, 2 years old at the most, i wouldn't have gotten away with photographing an old sow more than once.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 11:29:58 (ZULU)

Morning Hawgs!!

I will give you all something to chew on for awhile. A friend of mine that I drag race with just bought a $450 weather station that gives the corrected, actual, altitude of the air your racing in.

Anyway, yesterday the air here was the same as if you were at 5483ft!!! Now our altitude is actually 1450ft. So is this why some days when I go out to shoot at 700 and 800yds that I am a full MOA off?? Either high or low most of the time its high but sometimes if will be lower.

It would be intresting to know if this has ever been checked by anyone. Knowing the exact altitude the gun was zeroed in and record the changes with the different altitude corrections.

Also for your info. none of this really makes much difference until you get past 500yds. It seems to come into effect at around the 600yd marker on out. Under 500 its not that noticable. OK guys lets here it, ducking for cover!!!

Pat
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 13:04:53 (ZULU)

Pat...I sent you a clean email....

Jody....you are right on...

...IHMSA for me went the same way, the guys and gals with the most money won....I know of at least 20 good shooters in my area that do not participate any longer, said that they couldn't "afford" to compete any longer !!!

Alot of this can be blamed on the manufactures and some of the 'smiths......many of them take the best shooters and supply them for little or free with their newest and sometimes not the best products that intimidates other not so fortunate shooters into thinking that if "I" can't afford what "Leroy" has, I'm not going to be competitive.....sometimes its a correct statement....and yes, I do know shooters that get free stuff every day being delivered to they're door !!!! Sad to say, I'm not one of them !!!!! YET

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 13:38:28 (ZULU)

Pat; right! you got it!

Gooch; just not so fast there, if you zero at 500 or 700 where ever then your off at 100. Spin drift is not linear or consistant(* edit by that I mean it varies with range but never reverses or lessens as range increases.)however you wanna put it. Admittedly splitting the difference is is a good idea unless you compensate for each different range. IF you know what your spin drift is you can add or subract it from your windage but no claim that wind isn't such a factor it's almost worthless to (* edit again figure spin drift in since you never know the real wind speed and it can vary but nertheless it's there and may even affect the height (elevation) but that's another subject and too damnnnn small to talk about.)

If you can't see spin drift try this. Zero exactly at 100. I mean same damn hole center of target. Now go to 500 or where ever you like. Assuming no wind today or cross wind either... doesn't matter try to find a very low wind day (*edit or get straight down wind or up if wind is very light.) Remember if you can feel it on your face anywhere you got wind my friend. Now turn around and shoot back from the target to the bench.(not recommended at public ranges unless there's someone there you don't particularly like:). If you can't see it there (*edit as evidenced by the same right hand shift in both directions. This is to show the zero has changed and wind is not the cause) Come and complain to me or get a rifle that shoots better.

I think someone had figured out something the other day. The grooves in the bullet work somewhat like a paddle wheel and may actually vary between rifles as to how much they move the bullet against the pressure below it. Probably spin is affected by altitude and baro also (*editnot to mention rotation speed and groove shape and depth.) I'll celebrate if you prove me wrong, cause this stuff drives me nuts.

Brogers
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 14:07:22 (ZULU)

Yotebait..

I missed all the fist part of "This" spin drift thread but from our other debates on it I think we decided that it is of no real importance unless your shooting way past 1000yds.

The thing is that the atmospheric conditions have more affect on your bullet than the spin drift will. Just as you said the wind is never constant. If we shot in perfect conditions all the time then I think it is something we "MAY" have to correct for but only at longer ranges.

I think its just to small to even consider an if it did come into play at 100yds when you zeroed you would in affect zero it out. Just as you would wind. If your being blown 1/2" at 100yds you put in the correction and it compensates for it all the way out. Just my thoughts on it anyway.

Pat
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 14:50:54 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Maybe what some of us get frustrated about is this dynamic of bullet flight that seems to be left out in ballistic programs. I have a range that I can shoot out to 600 yards with the occasional 1000 yard practice on months with 5 weeks. That leaves me with no dope for 700, 800, and 900 yards and a lack of formulas to calculate the spindrift for it. The math is there to get you in the ballpark for elevation, providing you adjust for the proper atmospheric conditions, but nothing for windage. And, based on what has been written here these are the yardages when it will show.

You are right about once you have the dope for your yardage zero but if you don't is there some rule of thumb that says you need to adjust "X" to account for spindrift?

Damn, this is beginning to remind me of bowling. Ooops! Missed the pocket because I missed my mark by 1/2 a board and didn't throw it hard enough and the rotation pulled it to the Brooklyn side ;( Anyone else up for "Bowling Country?"

Byron
CA, USA - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 15:11:55 (ZULU)

Yote bait, I was shooting the sig. I have not shot the wife's G19 enough to tell one way or the other.

Alan, my point being, you can limit cost of competing by your choice of rules and the way they are enforced. One class can be cost effective, and another for state of the art, cubic dollar, development. The difference in formula V and formula one for instance.

Byron, a trigger jerk, yup that sounds like me ; )

I think if Rick wrote a book, you could read it but he'd have to kill ya ; )

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 15:29:20 (ZULU)

Pat; I think your right. That's what was decided. Try that experiment I outlined and see if you don't experience a difference that's not explainable. I've been accused of canting the rifle and all kinds of things but when I get with people who can shoot there's always the right hand shift. Perhaps you could just zero and 500 and them move to 100 and see it as a left hand shift if you can't do the reverse direction thing. But a lot of people think it's just a wind they don't know about or "the rifle shoots better than I do!" I tried to compensate for it with a Sheperd by canting it in the rings with the 100 yard reticle on the center of the 100 yard target zeroed and then slanting until the 500 yard circle matched the group actually shot.

It was ridiculously canted but still affected by as much a 3moa @ 500. I know the math says it don't happen but I say try it and see.

This is not to say that barometer and other factors aren't much more but.... it's still there. I get 500 yard groups 3" to the right on more than one rifle I've tried. With 100 yard zeros and no wind detectable. Turn around and shoot the other directions and 100 zero is still intact but the group is still left. If there were wind it would blow it to the left and should hit center impact. This does seem to vary with barometer but I'll be damned if it makes sense.

4i's I shoot the Sig first shot low from a fairly fast presentation if that's any help. I think it's the grips. Not a problem with single action. I took a SIG HK and Glock to the range and tested it for 3 days with all kinds of different presentations. Wound up liking the HK better but the Glock worked and shot best for me so I kept it. .45 ACP cal was the bullet in all weapons. A pistol is a personal thing I guess. I wouldn't hazzard to say which pistol is best for anyone but there are advantages to some in time, accuracy, simplicity and ease to carry, not to mention trigger problems. I tend to shoot full DA pistols a little low, even the S&W old model that's a real fine piece otherwise. Don't normally have that problem of changing between shots with the Glock. Most people prefer the 1911 single actions for the trigger if no other reason. As you know that causes differences of opinions among priests but time is of the essence in a gun fight to me. And not having to throw the safety off helps my time.

Brogers
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 16:35:46 (ZULU)

Brogers: on all my handgun's I use Houge grip's with finger grip's, and on my Car 15 & AR 15 too, they seem to improve my shooting, I need all the help i can get !! :o) they don't make grip's for my Sig P245 yet >>>> Don

Don Rutledge
Hemet, CA, U.S.A. - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 16:54:45 (ZULU)

AAARGH!

ALAN, yes I was around for the first really big spin drift conference, and it did peter out eventually. Check for my name in the archives. I was simply trying to avoid the beast.

Everyone else, repeat after me.

Spin drift exists.

SPIN DRIFT EXISTS

Spin drift does not matter under 500 yards

SPIN DRIFT DOES NOT MATTER UNDER 500 YARDS

Between 500 and 1500 yards, it is corrected in your zero for that range.

BETWEEN 500 AND 1500 YARDS, IT IS CORRECTED FOR YOUR ZERO AT THAT RANGE.

Anyway, up to 1500 yards, the “correction for drift is in fractions of an inch

THE “CORRECTION” FOR DRIFT IS IN FRACTIONS OF AN INCH

No one here can shoot less than 3” groups at 1000 yards

NO ONE HERE CAN SHOOT 3” GROUPS AT 1000 YARDS

Or else we would be rich by selling our secrets

WE COULD BE RICH BY SELLING OUR SECRETS?

We are not rich.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Therefore, we do not need to correct for spin drift, or even to worry about it.

NO CORRECTION FOR SPIN DRIFT. GOT IT

Now, if someone could make a cadence out of that.

Warning – science type stuff ahead. Persons who do not want their brains dripping out of their ears should probably skip it.

Take a smooth cylinder. Place it in a wind tunnel, with the long axis across the airflow. Start up the tunnel. Spin the cylinder. Due to the boundary layer effects of the cylinder, the airflow is deflected in the direction of the spin of the cylinder. A good picture is shown here: (And now I can’t find it. It is a cylinder, viewed from the end, with a series of smoke lines evenly spaced on the left side of the frame, clearly showing a 20 degree deflection after passing the cylinder)

And another site is: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/cyl.html or http://dustbunny.physics.indiana.edu/~dzierba/hp221_2002/proj_ppt/team_f/team_f.ppt

The effects of a roughened surface extend the boundary layer outward, and may prevent the formation of a turbulent layer, as with a golf ball. A .308 bullet at 180,000 rpm will have a rotational velocity on the skin of 241 fps, meaning that the rifling grooves are within the extended boundary layer. It will also vary with the density of the fluid it is traveling in, meaning that barometric pressure and temperature matter.

Then we consider that the effect takes place for the portion of the flow perpendicular to the axis of rotation, so as long as the bullet is traveling point directly forward, it doesn’t drift. Assuming a time of flight of one second to 1000 yards (3000 fps, no drag) and that the bullet does not rotate to correct, the bullet will have an angle from the point to the flowline of 0.6 degrees. We can safely say that the angle will be between 0.2 and 2 degrees. There is simply not very much flow perpendicular to the axis of rotation at this point.

By comparison, larger shells see much more deflection. The 8”/55 shells of the Des Moines cruisers have an angle of 3.7 degrees at 6000 yards, 16.9 at 16,000 yards, 41.6 at 26,000 yards, and 54.7 degrees at the maximum range of 30,050. The 16”/50 on the Iowas have angles of fall of 2.5 degrees at 5k yards, 15 at 20k yards, 28 at 30k yards, and 53.25 at max range of 43,250 yards (for the 2700 lb AP projectile at 2700 fps MV). Spin drift is a definite concern and must be individually corrected at these ranges. It also applies to land artillery, but I don’t know where to find the angles of fall at different ranges.

On an extremely calm day, or inside a tunnel (I hear the superconducting supercollider near Waxahachie, Tx is available) spin drift may be observable under the very most favorable conditions when the rifle is shot by a world class shooter. Under any other conditions, it simply doesn’t matter.

Science bit ended. Please ignore sound of dripping brains.

Karl

The above numbers, with the exception of the angles of fall for naval guns, were calculated by me use the grossest of simplifying assumptions and WAGs. They can in no way be considered more accurate than an AK47 in a hurricane. Use of these numbers should be done at your own risk of derisive commentary. YMMV. Has been shown to cause cancer in rat and sheep at implausible dosages. Fat free, sugar free, and content free. All warranties, whether expressed, implied, or assumed, are void upon receipt. No animals, trees, bits, or bytes were harmed in teh creation or dissimation of this post

Karl
Damn Hot, Tx, USA - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 17:23:41 (ZULU)

Karl; thanks for clearing that up. So it isn't spin drift then what is it? Why does my rifle shoot 3" to the right down range but it perfectly zeroed at 100 yards. When I shoot the other direction it's still 3" right at 500 yards. I know... I just can't shoot at 500 but I can at 100. And don't tell me it's because I'm a "world class shooter":). I already knew that.

It has to be cant but it ant. I know, this state is a few degrees off plum! Oh by the way, the faster the bullet the less observable this is. A 300 Win mag drifts less than a .308 win. A .223 moves more than a 22-250. OH yeah, my 110 grain .308 A max drifts less than the 168 Gr. A max...with of course... (no wind). Faster and flatter, but... it can't be spin drift.

Brogers
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 17:56:07 (ZULU)

Yotebait..

OK..thats better you said 3MOA!!! In your post at 500yds. 3" is not a big deal and may be mirrage, cant, scope or some trigger control.(NOT SAYING YOU DON'T SQUEEZE THE TRIGGER RIGHT) Just saying it could be something really simple.

3" at 500yds is very minimal nealy a half MOA. A MOA group is 5" at 500 and a bullet left or right of the group pulls the group that way. It may be more of a coincidence than you think. If your consistantly shooting a 2 or 2.5" group at 500yds and its a cluster off to the right every time, then maybe you do have a problem that needs to be chased down. Have you had other people shoot the gun??

Not to knock your scope but as I recall the Shephard is "NOT" a good scope for target shooting esp. groups at 500yds, just a thought!!But I really do think your barking up the wrong tree with spin drift and or Correalous(sp)effect.

Pat
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 20:45:30 (ZULU)

Pat,

I think a lot of people get confused with MOA, especially when you get downrange(not anyone here eh, hah..)don't ya think? Like if you tell people you shot a 1 minute group at 600 yds, they think wow!! but if you tell them 6" they say it's crap!! I guess that's why anymore I stick to minute of angle, short and sweet...helps me with these metric shooters here too, I could explain imperial inch groups all day and they wouldn't have a clue, but mention MOA, and they're right with me..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 21:26:38 (ZULU)

JR..

How you been you old horndog?? Are they keeping you busy over there?? Its a good thing I am not trying to figure inches and imperal inches or meters because they would have one heck of a mess!!!(HA)

We've had a nice summer here so far not to hot other than a couple of days. Its warmed up gradual not the 70 one day and 90 the next like a lot of springs. The wind has been a bitch this summer though. Its blowning 15 to 25 all this week. I hope it drops off this weekend I want to finish getting some zeros on my 6.5x284. It seems to be shooting about .75MOA flatter than my other one was. Keep your powder dry and take it easy on the lassies over there!!

Pat
Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 21:40:55 (ZULU)

Soft Federal brass??

I reloaded 40 pieces of once fired Federal GM .308 brass just the other day, mainly to use it for practice. Two rounds out of the forty blew the primers out, severely expanded the case heads, and just about welded themselves to the bolt head. The primers themselves were not flattened and not badly extruded around the firing pin depression.

Here are some particulars:

Load was 44gr. Varget, weighed on RCBS 505, metered by Redding 3BR.

175gr. SMK seated at 2.800" OAL using Wilson straight line seater.

WLR (120) primers, seated with RCBS hand seater flush with case head.

Neck-sized only using Redding Comp. bushing die with .334" bushing.

Case neck lubed with Hornady One-Shot.

Rifle was my KMW M40A1 with Palma 95 chamber, and was also the same rifle that the original loaded ammo was fired in.

Groups averaged tighter than half MOA, but the two blown rounds went about 1/4" high out of the their groups.

This load has functioned perfectly before (for over three years) using W-W brass, and even FN Berdan primed military brass in this same rifle and also in my Stealth! No oil was present in the chamber or on the case.

I remember that soft Federal brass was reported on the DR by Sinister and by 'lito and possibly others. Is this (soft brass) the cause of the problem that I just described? Anybody?

'yote bait,

Advancement of technology is great, but your example using black powder isn't! Black Powder hunting seasons, commonly called "Primitave" hunting seasons are SUPPOSED TO BE PRIMATIVE!!!!! They have been instituted in most places to provide the black powder (read primative) big game hunter something to help level the playing field with the centerfire rifle hunters. Traditionally, the primative hunter hunts an earlier season with fewer restrictions on areas, clothing, etc. Allowing straight line rifles with modern sights that will take game at 250+ yards is most definately not within the spirit or the intent of the original rules, in other words......GAMING!!!!!!! They belong in the same category as the centerfire rifle shooter. I shed no tears for the poor, poor modern black powder GAMER!!!!!!!!

All,

I still refuse to discuss you-know-what. It was put to bed long ago and just doesn't f***in' matter when referring to shoulder fired weapons!! Check your zeros at LR if you're gonna shoot LR, dammit!

ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 22:39:27 (ZULU)

Gents,

Alan, your load that blew primers is identical to mine, except I use Lapua brass and Fed 210 M primers. I tested Fed 210 M against Winch LR's and got a sum total of 8 FPS difference in the load. They are, for all intensive purposes, interchangable.

Was the Varget Powder Lot # the same as used previously? Just playing devil's advocate, but more than one person here has indicated "changes" in Varget.

Lastly, the use of "one shot" may have caused problems. NO cleaning agents go near my brass or rounds...EVER.

How long were the rounds loaded...from your post I'm lead to believe that they were just done for testing. So COLD WELDING shouldn't be the problem.

If this is a Palma Chamber...what about chamber neck to loaded round(neck) tolerances?

Just guessing, but I'd bet on the latter if the powder lot has not changed, but the the barrel/chamber is new.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 23:13:48 (ZULU)

I could only hope that one of these days I'll be good enough to worry about spinning drifting boolits.

Bolt
NC, - Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 23:46:57 (ZULU)

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