Sniper Country Duty Roster

Brian,

Sorry for your loss. My thoughts are with you as I know what you are going through.

Rick

Kimbershooter
Disputanta, Va, USA - Friday, June 13, 2008, at 02:01:20 (ZULU)

Brian,

There are no words that can make it easier so I'll just say You and your family are in our thoughts and prayers. It never gets easier you just learn to deal with it.

Stay strong,Stay well and God bless.

George

George Daly
Dickson, Tn., USof A - Friday, June 13, 2008, at 05:23:36 (ZULU)

BKS: That is terrible. I'm sure sorry to hear it.

CDC'
Friday, June 13, 2008, at 10:17:14 (ZULU)

BKS,

God Bless you and yours. Cherish what you do have, as you are. Thank you for sharing. Stay Safe,

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canuckia - Friday, June 13, 2008, at 14:06:39 (ZULU)

Great essay on gun control. Says all that needs said. Beautifully worded, concise, and to the point. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, June 13, 2008, at 17:33:08 (ZULU)

Brian, my condolences and prayers sent.Know the feeling, it is good to have fond memories. Enjoy your family.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Friday, June 13, 2008, at 18:03:58 (ZULU)

Brian K.

Very sorry to hear of your loss. My Dad passed in 91, I still miss him. Take care of your loved ones, you never know.

You and yours will be in my prayers,

Erik

Erik in Kodiak
Friday, June 13, 2008, at 18:48:35 (ZULU)

Travis: LMOA! The haikus in the comments were even funnier...insofar as to allow a better understanding by the lefties. Priceless.

Joe M
Friday, June 13, 2008, at 19:48:07 (ZULU)

Brian K. It's been six years since my dad passed, I know no words that make it better. Just one day at a time bro. You and yours are in our prayers.

Joe

Joe Ducos
Turlock, CA, USA - Saturday, June 14, 2008, at 06:37:52 (ZULU)

Brian K. Sain, what a touching tribute to your Father. You captured the spirit and soul of the Man in those few words. I have enjoyed your posts, as a lurker, for several years on Country. Your words have choked me with laughter and moved me to tears.

I lost my Dad to a sudden heart attack in 1977 while I was serving in S. Korea with the old Army Security Agency. That was the longest flight home. Dad was 66 and I was 25. So much unshared and unspoken between two proud and stubborn men. Dad was a hard and distant man who kept people away with a razor sharp tongue. Time passes and wounds heal but I still miss him and I still regret not pushing harder to get to know him.

Brian, I offer my sincerest condolences for your loss. Cherish your memories.

critter_bill

critter_bill
Saturday, June 14, 2008, at 17:58:57 (ZULU)

Brian,

My condolences on the loss of your Father. God bless.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, June 15, 2008, at 05:23:01 (ZULU)

My condolances Brian.

I lost my father in 1963 when i was a senior in high school, we were very close. We had one of those teenager growing up arguments. We each went to bed, and that was the last time i seen him alive. That's something i will never forget.

Gary Kaney
N, IL, - Sunday, June 15, 2008, at 11:34:18 (ZULU)

Happy Fathers Day to all you fathers out there !

To all of you whose fathers are still with you ,give them a call!

To those whose fathers have passed on ,say a prayer and remember the

better times.

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Sunday, June 15, 2008, at 13:32:57 (ZULU)

Thanks guys.

My mother died in a car fire in 2005.

Dad burned his hands trying to get her out.

He never quite got over all of that.

PTSD would jar him awake.

I am so tired of dealing with death and misery.

As I get older and stay in LE it seems it is everywhere.

Not only the day to day violence I see but also troops I know lost, friends going, Mom and Dad ...

I am too smart to blame God or eat a pistol but it is damn sure getting old.

But ... like Doc said in Tombstone.

There is no perfect life ... there is just life.

So we will drive on and do what we do.

Good friends like you guys are hard to find.

I am blessed to have so many.

As my pal Rick says ... Hold hard.

out

brian k. sain
Sunday, June 15, 2008, at 16:11:22 (ZULU)

BKS: Tombstone is on right now, the girls are watching. The line by Doc that got my attention today, when asked why he rode while so sick with Wyatt, was: marshall posse member: "I have many friends..." Doc: "I don't."

But the ones we have are as solid as the earth itself, eh?

The Irish just kicked the new EU treaty to the curb. It seems to me that the EU is happening to the people despite their wishes; every time a vote comes up, it gets kicked to the curb--but yet there it is:)) I guess their betters know what is best for the masses, eh? There is a lesson in this for us, if we bother to think it thru...

Joe M
Sunday, June 15, 2008, at 16:58:07 (ZULU)

Brian,

I'm sorry for your loss. You've seen a lot of tragedy, and I wish there was something I could do for you right now. Hold Hard, buddy...

Just returned from Badlands Tactical Training. Bravo worked with Bobby Whittington to create a three-gun tactical training course. It was an excellent experience. CDC' told me, on several occasions, to get training. I finally did. I should not have waited so long.

Badlands has outstanding facilities, instructors, and terrific people who go out of their way to ensure you are getting what you need. I had no idea what the capabilities of a 1911, carbine, or shotgun were, in the hands of professionals. I was in over my head from the first day, but the instructors gauged my aptitude, and adjusted accordingly. I received a lot of 1:1 coaching, which made all the difference in my learning. Long days, with bull sessions in the evenings to discuss after action results, made for a fantastic experience.

Many thanks to Bobby, Z, their family, the instructors ("Knuckles", "Nickelback", and "Taser-Dummy"), and the law enforcement professionals that visited during the week. Folks down in Oklahoma are very friendly and hospitable.

Oh... and if Bravo starts spreading stories about being a "Tactical Hobo" or having "Tactical Terets"... they're lies, damned lies... !

Hehehehehehee....

Duman
Monday, June 16, 2008, at 02:07:48 (ZULU)

BK,

I know what you mean. And that one thing will continue and escalate and we grow older and start losing friends more frequently. The infamous "they" say adversity builds character. Sometimes I wish I didn't have so much character, and I'm sure you probably feel the same. I think the memories of loved ones and the faces that show up in our dreams at times are meant to help us go forward in life with a better understanding of it.

I'd better shut up now.

Take care,

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, June 16, 2008, at 05:16:05 (ZULU)

Please overlook the typos in my previous message. For some reason the system won't let me edit the damn thing. Keeps telling me I'm an impostor.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, June 16, 2008, at 05:21:03 (ZULU)

Economics country again; click. Our narcissistic news media barely covers "the world" at large, unless there is a US name involved...so, we tend not to hear about what happens in the daily lives of the other 6.3 billion inhabitants (BBC world is awesome for such complete coverage). Summary: Inflation is kicking off in everyone's ass (S. Korea is close to 44%). So, when you hear that the dollar did better against a Euro--do you know that dollar did well, or was it just "less badly" as the euro that day??? Seemingly good economic news may not be so swell, if you look a little deeper.

OTOH, corn is up to $8/bushel...and I have 25 acres in for the hell of it. Diesel at 4.66 sure does clip that price though.

Joe M
Tuesday, June 17, 2008, at 00:35:03 (ZULU)

Joe M,

25 acres? That wont last long,if your raisin a few steers for beef too.

Package Arrived.Thursday,I think....I dunno,been crazy busy here.Angel had a knee surgery Thurday and the next time I hear "Hon,Can you get?"....I am gonna slip her 2 pain killers,Load the rifle on the Shovel and take a loooong ride.Maybe come back in a month.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, June 17, 2008, at 05:29:46 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Go to Walgreens and get her one of those "grabber sticks". Mine has been a real lifesaver, since the back surgery. I still can't bend much, so my quads are getting a hell of a workout, what with all the deep knee bends I have to do to reach stuff.

Re: Tombstone.....

Doc Holliday's comment really hit home with me. Like I told one of my friends; "I know it's not easy being my friend. I've been kinda different my whole damn life. Since I understand how difficult it is to be my friend, those that are willing to put up with me are deserving of my undying loyalty."

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, June 17, 2008, at 06:09:50 (ZULU)

on Friends...

There are several different types of friends... There are friends that you know and see at the bar or club, there are friends you work with, friends you hang with and friends you shoot with,Friends you invite to ur neighborhood and friends who can get in your safe.

I know many people, have many friends, but in the end there are only a hand full of friends that I would loan a gun too and not care when it came back or even what condition it was returned. These are the types of friends that you would climb on a plane ASAP to help, drive across country to see, and grab the shovel from the garage type of friends...

BWG... thats how I define friendship anyways... LOL

Morgue out

War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill

Mourge
SD, Ca, - Tuesday, June 17, 2008, at 06:26:09 (ZULU)

Mourge,

Copy that! I had my car break down in Iowa. I live near the bottom of Kansas. I called a few people that I'd helped in the past, with very little result.

When I got ahold of my cousin Heath, he just said, "Well, let me wire up the lights on the trailer, and we'll be right there." You just don't find friends like that.

A few of the people I'd called, I had picked up at 3 a.m. in the middle of nowhere, no questions asked.

It just bugs the hell out of me, the way people act anymore. Friendship should be reciprocal. I try to be just as good a friend, or better than the friends that help me.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, June 17, 2008, at 06:40:09 (ZULU)

joke on friends from a comedian:

- good friend will help you move.

- a great friend will help you move...a body

{LOL}

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, June 17, 2008, at 11:31:58 (ZULU)

Travis,

Thanx...Hadnt thought of that one.I got tv trays all over the place to hold....,Meds,H2O,Coffee,Soda,Make up,Remotes,snacks,her laptop,anything I can think of that she might need or use.The fun starts when she wants to go from one room to the next,Say from the bedroom to the couch.Both of the dogs have to go along too and try and help out in their own way but since they cant carry anything they are underfoot and in the way more then they help.I have been dumped on my ass trippin over the lab/retriever mix so many times he has adopted a look that just seems to say....."Ooooh,He is orrrrrnery today." anytime I enter or leave the room.The kids have been over so much I startin to think they have moved back in,and the refridgerator is a sworn witness to the fact.It doesnt matter how many times I open the door...its STILL empty.I am extremly grateful tho,that they are still under legal drinking age.All 6 bottles of Guinness have been keeping each other great company all by themselves.I just need to slow down and land long enough to enjoy one.

On the subject of Friends:

Seems I know or have more GREAT friends then GOOD Friends.Not a one of them will help me move and Every ONE of will help me move a body.The problem is ....NONE of them can keep thier mouths shut!!

Another good Western worth watchin. "The Long Riders".Theres 4 sets of brothers starring, The Caradines,The Keaches,The Quaids,and the Guest brothers.Does have a R rating(and I dont remember why) so it isnt for the young ones.

Morgue,

Really enjoyed that quote from John Stuart Mill,kinda stirring in a way,and it sure does make a guy think on how much the sheeple are taking advantage of those words.Its really sad,but if I were to repeat that quote,Best I could get from most around here is a blank look and a "Huh?"

UnPat

UnPat
Wi., USA - Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 07:12:13 (ZULU)

UnPat...

>"Really enjoyed that quote from John Stuart Mill"<

When I was a kidlet, we grew up on that kind of stuff - we studied history, and the political philosophers.

I "thought" everybody did :(

Over the years, I forgot the names, but not the lessons. Stuff like "When the govt gets the power to tax you and give you money, you have lost your freedom and democracy".

I learned that the Civil War was not about slavery, but about trade and money... I thought everyone learned the same stuff.

HA! (As the original PAt would say).

No one I know has the slightest idea about this stuff - they have been on their knees, beggin' for their own money back for so long that they have lost sight of America.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 09:24:29 (ZULU)

Brian K.

My sincerest condolences on the loss of your father. Keep him alive in your memory and he'll never be truely gone.

Murph

John Murphy
Backf rom Kuwait, AMEN!, - Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 10:28:38 (ZULU)

'Lito,

I think one of the things I enjoyed the most about that quote was learning that it was stated over 140 yrs ago,and from an Englishman,not an American.Now I admit I had never really heard or knew of the author till today,when I looked him up.I've heard the condensed version many times from my father and others in the form of, "We served so you could lay in bed at night and sleep safe and sound" or something to that effect,as at the moment I dont quite remember how they worded it.

In 1984 I was supposed to graduate high school,but they wouldnt let me.Didnt have the required course credits,The school had a GED program and I took them up on that offer.

Anyway,One of the problems I had with the school was History Class.It wasnt the teacher,it wasnt the class,and it wasnt the subject.I loved History.I just refused to do the assigned homework.I did read the chapters assigned,but just wouldnt do the work.

One day,the teacher pulls me aside and asks,"What do I have to do to get to do your homework? Your a smart kid,I call on ya in class and ya know the right answers,your quiz and test scores are great,but it wont be enough.You need to do and turn in your homework.So whats it gonna take?"

My answer was...."Start tellin us the truth". And at first he didnt know what I was talking about,till I explained further and said in the example of this ....That is not how it happened,In the example of that....Thats not what happened.

There was a quick flicker of a reaction across his eyes.And his verbal response was "I see your point,and your right,But My hands are tied.And that's what they want me to teach you."

Now many might think its an issue to be taken to the School Board,but I was over the age of 18 and already been expelled once with that school district,I wasnt gonna try and push my luck on that one.

Insomnia's a bitch.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 16:26:22 (ZULU)

Greetings Gents (you too Kittywhacker ;)

I found the following (from BlackFive.net) depressingly believable:

"OK, whoever thought this was a good idea needs to be relieved....

Posted By Deebow

I am certain that someone got their booty taken down a couple ounces over this. The problem is, we are the ones doing this to ourselves.

Taliban militants in Pakistan's restive tribal belt captured three US military choppers while they were being shipped in a dismantled state from Peshawar to Jalalabad in Afghanistan and sold one of the helicopters for several hundred thousand dollars

I wondered about the logic of this idea one day when I was on patrol and saw one of our brand new Up-armored Humvee (sans guns and radios) on a "Jingle" Truck flatbed being shipped to somewhere in the theater.

No American or NATO escort, and no Americans in sight. Just 4 Afghans, 1 truck, and the open road ahead of them.

The poor Afghans almost got to talk to me at the point of a gun about their load, but we got on the radio and found out that, yes indeed, they were authorized to be carrying that truck.

Perhaps I am letting my imagination get away with me here, because I am not certain of their exact intentions with this equipment, but I know I wouldn't want to have it packed full of Semtex and ball bearings and then flown haphazardly into a FOB and blown up.

But then again, we never imagined something like this happening in New York in the late summer 7 years ago either...."

Joe, does this jive with things & methods you saw?!? The whole outsoursing thing has gone a little nuts.

BKS, My sincerest sympathy. I have yet to lose either parent, but they're old, it's coming, and I dread it. They're, honestly, the best people I know. "When you're going through Hell, keep on going..." Prayers for you & yours.

Quote Country:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.” –C.S. Lewis”

Bill

SSG Mac
“It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.”, “The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog.” -C.K. Chesterton, - Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 21:56:45 (ZULU)

Since I've suddenly got a whole lot of time that must be spent at home (new baby)....I figured I might give this whole 'bedding' process a try. My first project will be a CZ 452 in 17 HMR....I'll be opening up the bbl channel on the walnut stock and then attempting the bed it effectively.

Is devcon steel bed still the preferred material? Brownells the place to buy?

medicjim
Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 22:24:35 (ZULU)

Gents,

On life and living...

I would say that in the long run we are all born, we all die. As the song says its the dash between those dates that matters.

In the end it isn't just the caliber of your actions that matter but the caliber of the people that remember those actions and who's minds you will continue to live on that matter.

On weapons...

I had some down time at work and I was able to kick it and do a little catching up at some of the other forums I peruse. One of the things that I read that tickled my humor was someone who was talking about people and generalizations. They pretty much said that their are really 2 camps where pistols are concerned and they generally fell into these categories- 1911's and Hk USP (IE Tupperware guns) He then said that people could be further catagorized in that those who were fans of 1911's generally were fans of the M1a as well where those that were fans of the Hk's were generally fans of something more modern like the XCR, AR or G3 style combat rifles... He went on to basically decree that those who were in the 1911 camp were generally there due to nostalgic reasons and not because the weapons were still of a viable combat option... IE they were outdated.

Now I had to laugh, and Here is why- I used to own a couple Hk pistols and they were strictly my SHTF go to pistols. I would recommend them to anyone then and now but since then my thinking has shifted. I still own them, still love them, but when the system fails and we are stuck with what we have I wanted something that I could smith on myself. Hence why I bought a couple 1911's. I can order ANY part for the gun from MANY different manufactures and when guns are scarce the parts will be prevalent for years. IMHO

So where 1 person says that people like the 1911 for nostalgic reasons he could be partially right but I think he fails to take things to the next step... The Hk can run for just about forever,I havent' really heard of any epic failures with them and hell I have read about Glocks that went for 10's of thousands of rounds without getting anything done including cleaning. But what happens when it fails? Who are you going to get to fix it?

I was talking to another Rastafarian yesterday on the subject and what it comes down to is that you SHOULD want something that can run for as long as possible under normal conditions and expected wear. I would expect that most of us would agree that having spare parts around for said weapon in case of a failure is a pretty smart idea. I lost the Slide release/ slide pin for the Hk temporarily and looked into getting a new one... and yeah... it was long enough ago that I remember being suprised at how expensive it was...

I told him that If I were in a situation including a long term SHTF carry what you own and life out a bag type I wouldn't hesitate to grab my USP and rely on it as my primary secondary, as long as I had one of my 1911's as a fall back. Remember 1 is none and 2 is one... Somethings are just hard to get away from you know?

Dog country...

My little girl is still a moving a touch stiff after her attempt at retrieving the prius but other than that she is pretty much 100%...

Joe M,

The box came in this afternoon... I have a seriously full freezer now... but it sure does make me smile... MMM... girl scout cookies...

Bravo, thanks again

Duman...

Hmm... Tactical Turrets huh? Thats a video I have to see... LOL

Morgue

Quote country:

Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness; wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness. By happiness is intended pleasure and the absence of pain.

John Stuart Mill

All political revolutions, not affected by foreign conquest, originate in moral revolutions. The subversion of established institutions is merely one consequence of the previous subversion of established opinions.

John Stuart Mill

The individual is not accountable to society for his actions in so far as these concern the interests of no person but himself.

John Stuart Mill

Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.

John Wayne

Mourge
SD, PRCa, - Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 23:32:00 (ZULU)

Morgue, I have to disagree with you a bit on the pistol thing. Or perhaps I'm just an anamoly. I didn't like the USP9 I had. Sure, it was an HK......'nuff said. However, I had heard about a few instances of the safety/decocker snapping off. It was a plastic part and was spongy in operation, didn't exactly induce confidence. On top of that, the magazine release was strange to operate, and the grip felt like a square block in my hand. Finally, spare mags were too much money.

I like Glocks more.

My favorite is the 1911. Perhaps, because my first one was a first series Kimber, I have been spoiled. I haven't had any issues once it was broken in, other than a bad GI magazine that made itself known during a carbine class. Once I chucked that magazine it was perfect. Same thing with another two day all pistol class. I didn't clean it after day one, specifically because I wanted to see if it would malf. I like the single action trigger, it feels good in the hand, mags are reasonable, it's more accurate than a Glock or HK (more accurate than I am actually), and it shoots .45 diameter boolets. What's not to like?

I had a Glock, but it was a .40 and an oddball round IMO. Try and find some cheap surplus .40........9mm is much cheaper and not all that much weaker IMO. If I had a 9, I don't think I would be afraid, I would just shoot until the threat is stopped....if it's worth shooting once, it's worth shooting twice or more. Does two 9mm holes = an 18mm pistol? :-P On top of that, I didn't like the grip angle, it just didn't work for me. The Tac Pistol class I took, we were taught a very interesting grip/stance that worked like magic with the Glock platform. Suddenly, I could shoot a Glock well enough to empty a G17 on a 12" plate at 15 yards as fast as I could pull the trigger.....and make a hit with every shot. I fell in love and now I'm sorta looking for a real cheap beater G17 or 19. I have a coupla nines right now....a Taurus first gen 92....just like a Beretta 92 except with a 1911 style frame mounted safety. And an Argentine FM Hi Power, with night sights, polished feed ramp, and C&S extended thumb safety.

I dislike any DA pistol with a safety lever on the slide that goes up/forward to go to the "fire" position. My thumb goes the other way under stress.

I'm not an M1A guy....too heavy, and I don't like all that wood. Accurizing is, at best, a chore that must be religiously maintained. My fav platform for a fighting rifle is the AR. Accuracy is no more complicated than swapping out a barrel with a vise block and barrel nut wrench. Parts are plentiful. And the safety is identical to my 1911.

Back to sniper sticks.....I let my Savage 110FP go a few months back. Gonna build a new bolt stick on a brand new 10 action with accutrigger I have here in the box. I'm liking the concept of the "drop in" barrels. And still looking at 50s...Morgue make sure to get us a review of those uppers you ordered. They look pretty nice. Interested in your accuracy results.

Geoff M
WI, - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 00:55:30 (ZULU)

Morgue:

re: firearms and spares

One approach is to investigate spare parts availability and pricing before buying.

I try to have spare parts for my more "serious" firearms. For some, it has an understudy (the ultimate spare). For example, I have a G17 and it's brother, as well as all sorts of spare parts. That's how I deal with tactical Tupperware.

Glock has replaced 2 slides for me and one for a shooting buddy under extended warranty at no charge. Thankfully, one of the few dollar/item limit exemptions to the US ITAR export rules are warranty replacements. 17L and "plain" 17 slide. Wayne Novak correctly observes that Glock slides are "glass" hard. Fortunately they don't fail in the same fashion as Beretta 92 slides.

I believe Glock realizes that their Tennifer process makes their slides just a bit too brittle, but don't want to re-engineer the metal treatment because of the superior corrosion and wear resistance it bestows on the assembly. It is only a significant liability for very high round count shooters - folks like IPSC, IDPA and CQB troops. Regular military and law enforcement just don't have the ammunition budget to generate a high enough round count. So Glock apparently just replaces the occasional slide as the price to be paid for the overall positive attributes.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 00:56:16 (ZULU)

Tac Pistols,

I don't think it really matters what pistol you choose, spare parts or not. Have a bucket full of spares, tools, etc. so that you have a lifetime supply of stuff for your pistol. Shouldn't be more than a few hundred bucks in a box or two that you keep in a closet. Be sure to include an armorer's manual/DVD.

I put 1200+ rounds through a HK-USP45C, no cleaning, no malfs (handloads, 5.0 grains Bullseye, 230-gr Rainier Ballistics hollow point). It still doesn't need a cleaning. That's even AFTER having tossed it in the dirt, disassembled, reassembled, and fired several hundred rounds.

Tactical reloading was challenging, because of the size of my hands and the double stacked magazine. The 1911, being single stacked, is perfect for tac reloads. Combat reloads, it's a draw (except for the expense of lost magazines. The 1911 wins this, hands down). My challenge with the HK-USP mag release was the Hogue grip slipping up/down the grip, in part due to the temperature. It was between 95-100F every day, no clouds, and 80%+ humidity. The Hogue grip slippage also caused issues with getting the mags inserted. The grip needs to be trimmed, then taken for another spin. Without the grip, it's like holding a plastic 2x4. Not great, if you have sweaty palms.

The other pistols in the class ALL malfunctioned, Glock, Wilson Combat, and whatever Bravo was slinging lead from. One of the Glocks had the spring guide rod break. Guide rod was made of plastic. What genius came up with that material selection?

The Wilson Combat had a much better trigger than the HK (HK triggers suck, but my HK-USP45C trigger REALLY sucks). The travel for the HK to reset the trigger 'feels' like a mile, and another half-mile back to the 'wall'. The Wilson Combat felt like you could 'rock' to and fro across the reset-wall transitions with just a whisper of travel.

My USP45C does not have ambi-safety/decocking. Something I would consider a MUST HAVE in future pistol acquisitions. Weak hand manipulations don't REQUIRE that feature, but sure make life much nicer, and delay the onset of "Tactical Tourette's" ("where the #$%#@ is that *&#+*&!% lever..!! " )

If you have a favorite pistol, then go with it. I still like the HK, but it has significant drawbacks. The instructors made their 1911s do things I didn't realize a 1911 could do (accurate, high speed semi auto is spooky, first time you hear it from a skilled 1911 operator. And I'm not talking 'race guns'). Bottom line, if you know how to use your weapon, regardless of brand/flavor/material/color, then you're farther along than someone with a high-end weapon who doesn't have training.

In summary, I'm just an amateur with an opinion. Your mileage may vary. My journey is just beginning.

==================================================================

P.S. - Bravo is one hell of a good shot, pistol or rifle, stress, no stress.

Duman
Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 05:55:42 (ZULU)

Pistol Country :-)

I'll put in my 2 cents now.

I owned and shot HK's for the last 10 years. I have owned HK USP 40, 40c, 45, 45c. I sold all except my 45 standard. The 45 standard has a LEM trigger installed but dang the travel is so long and the reset is so short and the recoil pulse is so long before another shot can be taken compared to my Springfield TRP, MC Operator and PRO. I have to slow down my shooting when shooting the USP just so that I do not lock up my trigger on the follow up shots as the slide is battering back into position. With the 1911 this is never an issue.

I love the HK USP, don’t get me wrong, and I find the grip to be perfect for me and I can shot the snot out of it, however, comparing it to a 1911, it is obviously not the same. The two distinct differences is the follow up speed and the trigger. There is no point in describing the difference since, either everyone is aware of it and or it has been explained in a prior post in the last 24 hours. My point of this post is that get any weapon that you are comfortable with, learn it from the inside out, and buy parts for it then shoot the hell out of it in the best of weathers, worse of weather and from different positions and stress yourself during these training cycle to train your mind and body.

Caliber, in my mind is dependent on how you plan to use it. If I was to carry only one in a CCW scenario, or am allowed to have only one personal side arm, I may either carry the 9mm or 40 calibers with a good performing hollow point round. The reason and logic is simple, I want more rounds going down range to shoot and move and not to think about when I have to reload again. Now, on the other hand, if the zombies starts coming out, and I am at home or else where with both a long weapon and a personal sidearm, I go for my trusted 1911 (Pro) on my hip or thigh.

Just an after thought, all bullets kills, but which one has the immediate stopping power to allow you to make a decisive decision to win the fight? Also, is shot placement important, or less so - in my humble opinion, it is very important and speed is not the issue but timing, flow and accuracy.

It appears that I have digressed a bit, but I hope this is useful.

As for 1911 users liking M1 Garand, or M1 Carbine specifically, I think this faulty thinking. As for those who like Glocks, HK, etc, and likes the use of the modern weapons only, this is also faulty thinking. I use the 1911 for better, quicker accuracy and the fact that I like the 45 round and feel it has the mass to stop or at least slow down the aggressor. As for the modern long weapon platforms, such as the AR, I like it because it is accurate, comfortable and can be configured for mission specific requirements. In addition, there are tons of after market parts one can buy and perform one own repair on said equipment. Both are excellent platforms and given the right bullet will do the job if the operator or end user hits his intended target. :-)

Once again, just my humble two cents, so take it for what it is worth.

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 15:19:06 (ZULU)

I was never impressed with the standard Glock spring guides, so I replaced them with a steel spring guide and recoil spring from Wolff Gunsprings - click on my name for their web site.

I think being able to hit the target under stress is at least as important as the bullet is.

I don't have many spare parts around, other than magazine and recoil springs, but I have lots of spare pistols.

Lindy
Hanging out near Creede, Colorado, U.S.A. - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 15:48:07 (ZULU)

Lindy - "I think being able to hit the target under stress is at least as important as the bullet is."

Yup Lindy, the target could be a feet, a knee, a hand, or part of a shoulder. Hit what target is exposed is the key. You will, in most cases, not have a full two dimensional, let alone a three dimensional, target just standing there facing you, as an example, a hostage situation.

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 16:20:05 (ZULU)

re: Glocks

I run Wolfe Gunsprings in my G17's - recoil, magazine, striker, trigger return. I use aftermarket sights, and I install a modified Glock extended magazine release as a semi-extended magazine release. Running aftermarket metal recoil spring guides. Unfortunately some of the mods takes my G17 out of IPSC Production to Standard class. Kind of ironic, since casual external examination wouldn't reveal most of the changes. I do the aftermarket springs primarily for the enhanced reliability.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 16:28:06 (ZULU)

Mourge

“I have read about Glocks that went for 10's of thousands of rounds without getting anything done including cleaning. But what happens when it fails? Who are you going to get to fix it?”

Answer: Me. As a 1911 fan I am also a Glock fan. Why, because they are so simple to completely disassemble and replace parts that anyone that can fix a leaky faucet can replace any part in a Glock. The best thing is the parts are so cheap. I took my Glock apart and did the .25 cents polish job and had it back to gather in about 30 minutes.

If you can fix your 1911 a Glock is not a problem.

My Glock 21 hold 14 rounds of .45 ACP and I am more accurate with it than my 1911.

HDR
OK, - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 17:01:51 (ZULU)

Leerker since 1999 or so. When the Mall Ninja first appeared....

About 0950 hrs CDT this date I was headed to work after closing on a house. Local AM radio (no idea if he is nationally syndicated) Mike Gallagher (sp?) was talking about Adopt A Sniper. He was leery of the program. "How could the military snipers need stuff?" He went to their web site and played part of the interview with Brian (In)Sane on the air. I did not hear the entire segment nor why he was talking about them. He left it up to the individuals to check them out & donate if they felt it was legitimate.

Sorry I can not supply any more info.....

Scott Kangas
Denton, TX, - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 18:16:18 (ZULU)

Geoff,

Not tryng to be a smartass but The reason there are so many different types of pistols out there is because everyone is different. Just because I prefer 1 type doesn't mean everyone else has too. As long as someone owns one or plans on getting one that they like and it won't mechanically fail due to faulty engineering more power to them. The odds are good if you are comfortable with the gun you will get out and shoot it more.

Heck, I have a buddy who is going to sell his HK USPC 9mm because he wants a Sig. Knows the sig, likes the sig, has mags for the sig and has LOTS of hours shooting the sig.

I personally like the way the Hk's shoot, haven't had an issue with the quality or anything breaking on them so that hasn't become an issue. When I was first looking at purchasing a tactical handgun I was debating between the Glock and the Hk. I ended up going with the Hk even though I had been shooting my dads glock for years because I liked having the external hammer as well as the safety. Plus it shot about the same if not a little better for me. but like has been pointed out by several people everyones grip is different so we all like different pistols.

Don't get me wrong, i have a couple glocks both a 21 and a 29 and I love them both but I would probably go with Hk over glock for feel personally. In the end thought I think I prefer the Springfield operator series. They just fit nice and shoot better for me.

I think it comes down to the experience level of the shooter. IMHO I would recomend a Hk to someone who wasn't as comfortable around guns because it has the external trigger and the visible hammer. I would recomend the glock to someone with a bit more experience who is comfortable with a gun that has no extra safety. But thats just me.

Duman,

One thing you might try doing is wrapping the grip with hockey tape. You can get the twists in for the finger grooves and it won't slip. I have one of mine wrapped and it definately effects the way it feels. You can't beat a 5 dollar solution if it works.

Darren,

I am running a touch behind the 8ball today, don't know if I am misunderstanding or you did but I posted that as some humour from another site. Partly because someone would just take people and drop them completely into those 2 catagories based simply on what pistol they prefer but also inpart because they didn't even take into account that some people like them because the parts are available just about anywhere.

Over all Lindy hit the nail on the head.

Gents pardon the spelling errors, worked all night and then had a class all morning...

Mourge

EDITED for mistakes and clarification

Quote country-

Work hard play hard, but if you can't soar with the eagles during the day you shouldn't hoot with the owls all night.

Mourge
SD, PRCa, - Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 20:54:38 (ZULU)

shades of 1929 and the buying stocks on margin bubble...

http://www.newsmax.com/morris/oil_prices/2008/06/18/105469.html

"...You can buy oil futures for only 5 percent down on margin, a bargain considering the 50 percent margin requirement for stock market equity investments. Because the margin requirement on oil futures rises as the due date approaches, few investors actually end up buying the oil, they just roll over their investments.

So the willingness of sellers to unload their oil futures and buyers to acquire them sets up its own market of supply and demand which has more to do with determining the actual price of oil than even the global demand and supply for the product itself."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, June 20, 2008, at 03:41:20 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Sounds like you and I were pretty much the same in high school, except I told the Vice Principal that if he didn't let me test out our drop out, I was gonna beat the shit out of him.

You never saw anyone so eager to get a kid out of school.

Mac,

That's fucked up! Ours guys are still scrounging to do a "hillbilly uparmor" job, just so they can fix it all the next day, but the money spent on brand new uparmor jobs is going to someone else.

Mourge,

When your Glock fails, just rob parts from people whose Glocks KB'ed. There are plenty around. I wouldn't have one for a doorstop.

As for the 1911, I damn near switched from Sigs to 1911's just for the reason you stated. I'm a bargain hunter. Most people would rather buy a RIA than a Sig, because it's half the price, so there are a buttload of accessories for 1911's, but damn few for my beloved 220's.

Check any used holster bin, pretty much anywhere, and you'll have to dig through a pile of them made for 1911 to get to one made for anything else!

Rod,

What did you mean about how Beretta slides fail?

Darren,

WTF is a ".45 standard"?

I know it's been hashed and rehashed, but I like Sigs best because I have put literally thousands of rounds downrange, both on my own, and in competition, without a single failure that wasn't caused by me learning to reload ammo. The only part I ever had to replace was because I lost the trigger return spring, which, to my mind, was poorly designed for use with the issued plastic grips.

Sigs are among the best autos I've shot for accuracy, as well.

If any of you Glockers wanna argue about it, we can wail on each other with our empty pistols. (Bet I win! ;0{P)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, June 20, 2008, at 03:57:09 (ZULU)

Travis - Beretta M9 slide failures:

http://www.thegunzone.com/m9-a.html

w/links to other references

Around 1989-1991

The neat part is that sometimes the M9 slide failed on both sides, so the rear half gets launched at the head of the operator. Bet it hurts getting half a slide being thrown into your teeth...

Beretta changed the design so that if the slide breaks, the rear (broken) half no longer gets launched at the operator.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, June 20, 2008, at 04:06:04 (ZULU)

Travis,

" If any of you Glockers wanna argue about it, we can wail on each other with our empty pistols. (Bet I win! ;0{P)"

You might wanna to rethink that considering your current condition. ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, June 20, 2008, at 06:01:57 (ZULU)

Travis,

I know without a doubt,my vice wanted rid of me well before I opted out from the way other "incidents" were handled.

We had some required course human development or something along the lines of that.And we were given a 5lb bag of flour to make a "baby" with....So filled some panty hose up w/cotton,made a head,arms,legs...drew the facial features on with colored markers.Well....for the baby's bottle instead of using a real baby bottle...I used a washed out pint of Jim Beam...and used water and coffee to fill it 1/2 full.Even used a finger from a surgical glove for a knipple.Got a 3 day vacation for that.Not an "in-house" were ya could make up your homework....but at home w/the folks type.Hmmm...Maybe I should have used a real baby bottle and filled that w/Jim Beam??Dad just raised an eyebrow...

Then some kid that sat behind my girl decides he is gonna slip her some notes decribing how big he is and on the way by cop a handfull of tittie...Told Dad he was gonna get a phonecall...and warned him I was gettin another 3 days off...Sure enough,I caught up with the kid.We danced.He gets 3 days "in house".I get sent home.The school calls.Dad answers....then tells the vice."Your lucky my kid bring have a baseball bat...."

When they expelled me...I found out real quick,it isnt "Innocent till proven Guilty"....Your automatically guilty till you PROVE innocence.The school wanted to push the charges,and get me time in the big house.

It really pays to fight for it when your in the right.

Pistol Country:

If one gun worked for everyone...There would only be one gun.I prefer a lil heft to mine.So make it metal.Kinda suprised to see that noone offered anything up on the Browning High Power,tho.Good?? or Bad??.Granted,it may not be as customizable(and I am sure someone could argue that?)as a 1911 but its been around a good long time too,plus its a high cap.

Oh,and just to blow some holes in that one guys theory.....I own a 1911 AND an AR....No M1's and No Glock here.At least not yet anyways.

JC,

Travis's physical condition may not be be the best....but I bet he could get hit by a freight train and not even feel it.....LOL

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Friday, June 20, 2008, at 08:14:47 (ZULU)

Mourge, I reread your post and I think that I did not see your point in the beginning but I do now. So, as an after thought, an I am sticking with this ;-), I just like to hear myself talk aka write on the board :-)

Travis - .45 Standard in reference to the HK USP model and not the bullet itself. Perhaps I should have been clearer with my description. .45 standard = HK USP 45 Full Size and not the HK USP 45 c or compact.

Darren

Friday, June 20, 2008, at 15:54:32 (ZULU)

UnPat...

>"Kinda surprised to see that no one offered anything up on the Browning High Power, tho. Good?? or Bad??"<

GOOD. I have five of the little puppies, and an HP was my first serious carry pistol. Carried it for 15 years.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, June 20, 2008, at 16:33:59 (ZULU)

re: pistol country

GP35 aka Browning Hi-Power was the primary service pistol for British and Canadian armed forces for many years. British SAS used it for quite a while before eventually switching to something else.

(SIG 226?). I read that high round count units would develop slide cracking. Units were produced in Canada during WWII, and were also sold to the non-Communist gov't in mainland China during that era. Those were distinguished from "regular" units by their tangential adjustable sights with settings for up to 500 meters (!), and an attachment point for a shoulder stock.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, June 20, 2008, at 17:03:48 (ZULU)

The SAS switched to Sigs.

Lindy
Hanging out near Creede, Colorado, U.S.A. - Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 03:29:24 (ZULU)

I still like 5" single stack 1911's the most. I had a black and stainless HP and I liked it somewhat but I couldn't get it to group, didn't like the sights, and the trigger was one of the worst I've experienced. I thought it would have been fantastic if I spent the money to change those things but I already had 750 in it and didn't want to go any further on a 9MM.

I shot my friends Sig stainless .45 and now I have to buy one. Felt really good and it was one of the tightest grouping pistols I've ever fired. I put about 1K rounds through the Glock 21 I used at the 'Hide Cup this year and it was also very accurate and reliable. For some reason I just didn't like it very much.

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 03:47:50 (ZULU)

"You might wanna to rethink that considering your current condition. ;-))"

JC,

Yeah, I thought about that after I'd already shut off the computer, but I'd already takedn my dosage of Percocet 10's and a Skelaxin, so I probably got real involved with staring at a spot on the wall and drooling, or some such, which precluded me doing any editing.

UnPat,

Yeah, I got suspended a lot, too. I'd do my best to mouth off enough to get two weeks, if they were gonna kick me out. No sense getting thumped at home for a piddly 3 dayer. And since Dad hated seeing me lay around, I'd get all my schoolwork done in the first coupla days, then get to spend the rest doing ranch work. (I actually preferred digging post holes in rocky ground to school!)

On the Browning Hi-power - It's pretty much the same gun as the Sig. It seems to be one of those old standards that nobody knows why they weren't a bigger hit, because everyone seemed to like them.

Rod,

500 meters with a 9mm? I'd pay to see it done!

Marc S.,

Have you heard of any good aftermarket triggers for the Sigs? I'm trading a guy a bunch of leatherwork for a 220 Elite, which comes with the short reset trigger, but I've never tried one before. For that matter, I rarely see anyone else shooting a Sig when I got to any of the ranges around here. I don't know that I've even seen ONE other guy shooting a Sig. Everyone has a damn Glock. ('cept me!)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 13:27:36 (ZULU)

Gents: My economic grandstanding these last six months may seem alarmist, and perhaps, way, way outside of my areas of experience. A minor within a bachelor of science does not make for a credible source. Got it...but click anyway:)) RBS seems to have picked up on a few of the same vibes.

Rod: The 89-91 M9 slide failures were occuring at about 2000 rds. we had 'em NDI'd at about every 1000rds, IIRC. Whatever it was, the depot was surprised that we cycled 'em through so quick:))

Pistol country: An on-going transition is underway in my thinking on this very subject. Luckily, I have youz bumz to help me through:)) Ya see, there is a significant difference in military side arm thought vs. civie-style personal protection. Until recently, I merged the two concepts---after all, we were talking about the same tool, eh? I've come to realize that what had been my guiding principles on selection are no longer. Some facts that influenced my judgment for the mil sidearm (but not all, we do not have the space or time today), and the "new" thinking in sub-paras:

1. The Army would bring me bullets--or, I knew where to unjam the system with a single phone call to a buddy at the ASP in Kuwait:))

1a: I now have to obtain my own, and provide myself with a reliable supply at all times!!!

2. Ball ammo sux, so the bigger it starts out of the gun--the better.

2a: I can now use whatever magic expander bullets I want without worry about Geneva's take on unnecessary suffering (WTF...?)

3. A side arm is only the principle arm of an idiot--and mamma did not raise one of those. It was the third fall back among five ways to bring scunion on my person (M4, Mod37, M1911, Frags, blade---last resort and not listed is "hands":)) As such, it is accorded a lesser role, and a lesser space in a limited tactical vest.

3a: Open carry of a tricked-out M4gery 'round town is a no-no...so I find myself an idiot after all:))

4. I could carry any damned way I wanted, so size of frame did not really matter---weight was the only issue and that was a "total" kit issue--meaning a heavier bit of kit could be offset somewhere else within the kit. Trade two 30 round clips gained for a frag lost, etc.

4a. Now, a fully loaded P13 feels like a freakin' battleship.

5. Absolutely had to be supported by existing supplies, either captured (1911s!) or within the coalition supply chain (.45 ammo wasn't everywhere, but easily obtained).

5a: Still somewhat of a consideration for brass---so caliber matters in the "end of times"--but not so much specific firearm. If you need it bad right now, and it just broke, it is a damned sure bet that you are no where near your parts cache.

6. I trained on 1911s and M9s about equally throughout my career. The Navy had P226s--I could have borrowed one if I wanted. Duh! I could swicth back and forth between the M9 and 1911--only because I had to learn how over years and years. In combat, I did not wish to try learning any new tricks. Train as you fight---and this is actually as bad as it is good (Bill Mc can weigh in on this---safety nazis can ruin a perfectly good firefight)--but either way, it is TRUE.

6a: I am not about to carry an M9; nor do I want to pick up a whole new toy to learn my new tricks with....so I am staying 1911 (and, yes, I am partial to the old M14, and own a M1A). Training i$ on me now, and it is cheaper to stay with what I already know. But--someone without 25 years on two frames has a lot of choices to make!

7. Nice segue to absolute reliability--being the 1911 can be too much fun to tune the bugs out of it. I wanted reliability in Iraq and 'stan--but kinda cleaned and maintained myself into a false sense of well-being. I had no malfs with either handgun while playing on the range, and only pointed it anywhere else rarely. As such, and being rather low on the list of self defense capabilities--I really wasn't concerned about worst-case conditons and performance; I cleaned religiously--ammo too.

7a: Bravo's trip to Bobby's brought back good intel on pistol failures. They can and will! The bottom line was that most designs have strengths and weaknesses. You have to choose which is what for you. BUT!!!! If a pistol is all you have--it has to be absolutely reliable!!! For me, I think I now want to know what Bravo strives to learn--what will make it fail...if I know that, I will know when to get to safety and clean. Random failures in any design not resolved is not an option.

FWIW: always liked the P35s:)) had a few too---but, always hated 9mm for anything but paper...FMJ formed that opinion. Para ramped the barrel in a 1911---kinda merging the improvements JB made in the P35 backward to the 1911:))

Psyop: never discount this; a great big black hole under two intently-focused eyes has resolved more confrontations than the bullet itself. The confidence that is in those eyes came from your training. You just know...and anyone on the other side can sense that.

Reading that list again, I noticed that it is open-ended with no absolutes---exactly as it should be. You have to be "good" with your own choice and reasoning, to some extent. In a crisis, .40S&W becoming scarce could be a mistake, or then again, not if you have a zilluion rounds in your basement. A wunder-9 with a good bullet will get'er done in the rigth hands, but sometimes,the human spirit amazes; badguy takes one to the head and stays in the fight. Who knows. If you put it on, and feel like you are now ready to face any evil--it is either because you are ready or you are deluded. Folks here do not delude themselves--we all feel the pinch of high commodity prices because we consume them with regularity (or wish we were! Hey, copper, brass, powders--ouch). Confidence is born from the knowing--not the having. Its been said may times here: having the coolest high-end gun is meaningless if you do not have the training to use it--under as many conditions as you can simulate. A guy who shoots a 1000 rds a week at paper from 15 yards is wasting time and money. How about the draw? How about drawing while laying on the shoulder rig (after being knocked down)? A snap shot falling away at 15 inches? Left handed reversed draw and shot while holding a knife weilding hand at bay? Multiple targets, ranges? You can what-if scenarios to death, and you should. Kill them all!

Mil and civilian considerations are a world apart, IMHO. I am just begining to think into this...and it would seem I started here:))

Joe M
Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 16:54:58 (ZULU)

After not making any recommendations on caliber or frame, I decided to do just that:

1. The world's best pistol is the one that cycles it's second round before the other guy clears his holster.

2. The best bullet (caliber) is one that you never run out of...ever.

3. A really great gun is the one you have when you absolutely need it.

4. A barely adequate gun is found to be out of ammo or stove-piped after the situation ended by its operator; a less than adequate gun is found in these conditions by the first responders.

5. the worst gun in the world is at home or on the shelf at the store when needed.

I hope that clears things up!

(re-read the first sentence--I did just that by again not making any specific recommendations)

The point is--where do you compromise? The only wrong answers are the ones that can kill you--the rest are personal preferences.

Joe M
Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 17:29:58 (ZULU)

CETME..........

If I ever post here that I have bought or traded into another CETME someone please come to NC and put a bullet in my head because I will have surely lost all sanity and should be put down. Traded into a Century Arms CETME.....24 out of 65 friggin mags fit this damn thing without using a sledge hammer.

Stoopid, stoopid, stoopid.....when will I ever learn? Bolt out!

Bolt
Stoopid in........, NC, - Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 17:58:11 (ZULU)

Pistol Country,

I've read all this with great interest and learned a few new things, which is always good, but I wonder where all the revolver shooters are? Can I be the only one that carries a revolver as a 24/7 sidearm? S&W 325PD, to be exact, light, easy/fast to reload, gottum big hole in muzzle, common brass/boolets/ammo, what's not to like? Not a bear gun, but no handgun is and I carry a rifle when about the salmon streams with my rather unpredictable Bulldog. Am I the lone wheelgun voice in a semi-auto wilderness? BTW, this is not to proclaim the revolver as the only answer, just the one I like best, for here, and now. Different places, different times, maybe different answers.

Good shooting to all,

Erik

Erik in Kodiak
Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 18:34:06 (ZULU)

Just a quick fly-by, gotta get going here soon. Picking Bub up at the airport this evening - it appears he didn't get his pig this year either. On the good side, the reason he didn't get his pig appears to be because they've all been killed or run out of the area..... not lack of shooting or hunting skills.

On the pistols - I'm at a complete and total loss. I think what I'm going to do is run some really really abreviated but ugly tests on my 1911. Not a "shoot to fail" test, like I usually do. In a blinding flash of the obvious, I figured out I'm not going to be carrying 5000 rounds of 45ACP anywhere. If it'll put 50 rounds out, cleaned and lubed, after what I put it through, I'll "be good" with that decision. It'll make for crappy training days, but I'll live with that.

I'm not betting on the 1911 making it. Hoping, but not willing to bet on it.

Ordered me my Christmas present yesterday - because Alessi says the estimated wait for the holsters is 24 weeks :-( One for the BHP, another for the G37 - Monday I'm going to call and ask if they can be set up for 1-3/4" belts instead of the standard 1-1/2" I've been using for the G17 for about the last 10 years - I'll add in a holster for the 1911 at the same time.

My line of reasoning - due to my hand size - was start out with the smallest pistol, and work my way up until I find what's the best compromise for me. That means the 1911 first - with the short trigger and thin grips, it's the smallest girth pistol of any and it fits my hands WELL. Next up is the BHP. After that, we get into multiples.... my shaved down Glocks, the Croatian XD, and of course the USPC.

It's been a pendulum for me. Running a 1911, but being disenfrachized with the reliability. So I go to Glock (tremendous reliability) and am disenfranchised with most else. Pendulum back to the 1911. Lo and behold, now I'm trying to figure out what's in the middle of the pendulum swing LOL!

Why I don't carry a revolver? Jeff Cooper talked me out of it. Been there, done that, and got talked out of it by the man himself - based on questions he asked, so this is about ME, not a universal.

But now I'm in a screwy place. REALLY screwy. Used to be that I didn't know much about anything, except I'd settled on (read that as "developed a significant relationship with after extensive usage") Winchesters for long-range stuff and the M14 for a battle rifle. Then I thought I'd settled on the Glock. OK.

With my eyes having determined for me that iron sights aren't my friend any more, I've come to the conclusion that I don't have a chosen pistol, battle rifle, or spotters rifle. The things I poo-poo'ed (shotgun and carbine) the most are what I feel I've got "down" now. Go figure.

I will say this though - Duman is a way cool dude to hang with. The guy is professional and soaks up everything like a sponge. It didn't bother me one bit - and I mean literally one bit - to have him running rounds at targets to my side. Besides, watching the "Duman meets Drill Sgt Rich" was worth the price of admission right there!

As well, I figured out that I'd done something stupid. While at home, dry firing, I'd squeeze the trigger, then rack the slide to start again. Since there wasn't anything in the chamber, I didn't just let the slide slam forward - I kind of rode it forward. Why wouldn't I just cock the hammer? Because a Glock doesn't have a hammer, so I just did with the 1911 what I'd been doing with the Glock. Duh. I didn't have malfs with the Glock, so I didn't have practice clearing malfs - something I'm fixing NOW. Got dummy rounds ordered, and Bub is going to load ALL my mags from here on out (HEHE!) - I'll be KING of the malf drills soon LOL! But back to the 1911 - when I needed to clear malfs at the course, I wasn't letting the slide slam forward, which caused other problems. Moral of the story - think through everything and practice perfectly, 'cause even the little things seem to wind up coming home to roost sooner or later.

Dang! Got long winded!

Bravo
Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 19:11:10 (ZULU)

Travis wrote:

"500 meters with a 9mm? I'd pay to see it done!"

I'm just telling you how the sights could be configured, I didn't say you had much prospect in getting any hits at that range with that pistol. Does seem rather optomistic.

I'm sure with or without the sights you could lob a 9mmx19 projectile roughtly 500 meters away, but actually hitting a specific selected target would be another matter entirely! The residual power in such a projectile would be pretty anemic too.

My suspicion is that they might have been specified for use in a "volley fire" scenario, where several soldiers would simultaneously be firing at a very distant target. No guarantee of any hits, but it would make your opponents more nervous than just leaving them alone. Might spoil your opponent's aim a bit :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 19:43:43 (ZULU)

OK, grass is mowed.

My conscience wouldn't let me go too far without posting this:

I've known many of you guys for years and years. Several I've gotten the chance to do right by, one way or the other - some I just know on the internet. In either case, I'm gonna help you out here as best I can:

Get a course at BadLands. Check out what they've got to offer, and sign up. Or, if you don't see exactly what you want, start planning! The course Duman and I took wasn't an "off the rack" course - wasn't scheduled or defined as a standard class. It started out as 7 guys wanting to take a class on what WE wanted. The "Basic SWAT" course was used as the basis, but then changed pretty dramatically as none of us was on a SWAT team, much less the same team LOL! Instead of team training, we got a slew of "how to operate as an individual". In other words, BadLands will taylor the course to YOUR needs.

Most of you guys will recognize that this is my second course at BadLands. That was on purpose. I've taken classes elsewhere, but to date there's nowhere that I can say fits me like BobbyWorld.

The comments I heard from the class included things like "life changing event" and "the hardest thing I've ever done in my life". I'll admit, it was hard - at the end of the days I was cooked somewhere between "Betty Crocker" and "Julia Child". But here's where BadLands shines: it's OK! Other schools have a set curriculum - from 0800 to 1000, we do "this", then 1000 to 1200 we do "that". Which means that if you don't grasp the "this" concept well enough then you're officially hosed at 1000 - the class moves on to "that" whether you're ready or not! Not BadLands. The student / instructor ratio is such that if someone needs help, he GETS help. Nobody gets left behind.

That gives the course a bit of a "fly by the seat of your pants" feel, but it's really not thrown together. They've got a place they want everyone to get to, if part of the course takes longer and another part takes less time, everyone gets to where they need to be by the end. EVERYONE. And by doing it this way, more advanced stuff can be taught 'cause EVERYONE is up to it before it's introduced.

By day 3, I was fielding questions about how we were going to do the next class. And yes, unless Jesus returns or the nation tanks before then, I'll be planning the next course. It's already in the planning stage.

One of the other things I'll touch on was the fact nobody objected to me questioning the doctrine taught. I wasn't "challenging", just asking - and I got good answers! They teach ABC, where another place taught me XYZ. I got my answer on "why is ABC better to use than XYZ?" and in such a way as to let me make up my own mind. And yes, after thinking about it and trying it, I chose the BadLands way.

And let me throw this out there to everyone: I've become more and more disgusted with "gun owners". You know the kind, people that own 25 rifles, and might even shoot one once a year! The kind of people that go out on the square range (if you catch them there for the once per year expedition) and put 5 rounds into a pie plate at 100 yards, and "call 'er good 'nuff!". Yeah, because they stand solidly at 7 feet and blaze away - slowly, but shooting! - into a still siloughette with that pistol, they're "pistoleros". Nobody here - that I know of - would even come close to being described that way.

But then a corolary of this is that I'm getting more and more 'bothered' by people that own 50 rifles, cases of ammo stacked in the garage, and high-speed-low-drag gear by the bushel. They can't be talked into getting good training though! If I only had one rifle, but a slew of training in how to use it, I'd call that a "fair trade" for the safe queens. Getting gear sorted out the hard way is a beautiful thing in and of itself.

Heck, I learned the difference between an assault vest and a patrol vest this go-around ;-)

So get some training somewhere somehow. Become efficient. My recommendation is BadLands - and my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

Bravo
Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 20:34:23 (ZULU)

Bravo,

You're fibbing... I'm a putz. BTW, I'm hoping to get a copy of that video from Sneaky. It was entertaining.... AFTER the fact.

I've been having similar thoughts regarding rifle/pistols. On the drive home, I pretty much decided I'm going to clear out most of my gun safe, and focus on a few weapons I'm actually going to use or learn to use. I'll probably keep a couple of doggin' rifles, but no more range/safe-queens. Stay tuned for some deals.

I'll probably jettison most of my "Tacti-Kewl" gear as well. No more "high-speed, low-drag, drop-bucket" stuff for me. One piece of equipment that worked very well was the Maxpedition rolly-polly bag... for shells and such. The Serpa holster works well, but be sure to place it in a position where you can access it with weak hand. The "Jenny Craig" comment is still rattling around my skull.....

Velcro is a double edged sword. For flaps, it works well to retain mags and other equipment. In a crisis, it REALLY slows down access to mags and other equipment. Particularly if it's on a belt, and you're trying to remove the belt quickly.

As far as the HK-USP trigger, the HK-USP45 Tactical has a different trigger, which is much smoother. I'll look into how much it would take to upgrade the USP45 with such a trigger. More voodoo...

BTW, I did not lube the USP45C before, during, or after the course. It seems to like to run dry. I should probably blow it out with compressed air, get some of that Oklahoma Badlands dust out of it.

Erik in Kodiak, I have wheel guns as do many people on the Roaster. I enjoy the heck out of them. Bravo knows more about why they're not taught for gun fighting, including his talks with Jeff Cooper.

Later, guys.

Duman
Saturday, June 21, 2008, at 21:34:14 (ZULU)

MAJOR! DO NOT push the "F**king Safety Nazis" Button!!! Marrius'll make you clean up the mess ;-) Still don't believe that CG's protective detail was rolling out with wpns in AMBER. ...I KNOW I never did, regardless of the REMFs & Shave-tails N-G problems.

Pistol country, some wise person here once opined: "A pistol is what you fight your way to a long arm with." Well said. The right pistol is the one you're confident with, and have with you. I love my 1911, but it's a problematic carry gun under numerous conditions (not that I don't try everything I can get away with). In those conditions (and places) where it's not really possible, I carry a cute little itsy-bitsy pocket pistol of truly discusting caliber... because it's what I have. The carbine's always in the trunk waiting.

SSG Mac
“It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.” , Chesterton, - Sunday, June 22, 2008, at 01:13:46 (ZULU)

re: pistols

I don't know if he originated the quote, but Clint Smith sure made it popular - a pistol is what you use to fight your way to a rifle.

I watch way too much TV. It never ceases to amaze me the scripts that have non-undercover police officers willingly going to a likely gunfight situation with a pistol. Of course, very few script writers have attended any gunfighting schools :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, June 22, 2008, at 03:37:31 (ZULU)

A slicked-up model 625 makes a great field pistola. It doesn't chuck your cases in the weeds and is far more accurate than John M's masterpiece. Fill with auto rims and carry auto rims in loops to use for tac-loads. Use full moons with acps for speed loads. Click my name.

CDC'
Sunday, June 22, 2008, at 04:54:10 (ZULU)

History Channel just ran a show yesterday involving Jerry Miculek,Tom Knapp and a few other of the Greats,The 15 yr old was channel surfing and came across it.Damn that guy is fast on the trigger.In the program he ran 2 guns,one in each hand,and emptied them faster then most can run one gun in a 2 handed grip.

'Lito,

If ya dont mind me asking did ya doin anything to trick your BHP's out?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, June 22, 2008, at 11:13:40 (ZULU)

Miculek's speed is aided by the fact that he doesn't have to wait for the slide to reciprocate on a pistol - he just operates the trigger again, which he can do faster than a slide can cycle. He reloads rather quickly, too.

Lindy
Hanging out near Creede, Colorado, U.S.A. - Sunday, June 22, 2008, at 14:50:34 (ZULU)

"He reloads rather quickly, too"

Amazingly fast...I'd be happy to clear the empty and stuff a loaded mag in and release the slide with his times---that HE DOES on his revolver! The wife and I sat thru that same show, I'd bet.

Joe M
Sunday, June 22, 2008, at 16:18:49 (ZULU)

Boltster...

Wazza "Century Arms CETME". There is only "CETME" CETME's!!

"Century Arms" to firearms in like Britney Spears to "Classy Women" :(.

Me and Bravo was talking about leather the other day, and youz bums that are shopping for leather for a P35 (BHP) watch out for some of the shams out there.

Many leather makers sell 1911 holsters for the BHP, P35.

Take it from me... they are VERY DIFFERENT Pistolas! The BHP NEEDS an BHP holster - it will fall out of a 1911 holster! And that's a fact Jack!

Travis...

>"500 meters with a 9mm? I'd pay to see it done!"<

How much??

Those pistols with the tangent sights were fitted with shoulder stocks, and it was not hard to hit a man at 500 yds/mtrs with one.

I have one of the original Canadian Ingles with the shoulder stocks, and I guarantee that you would not survive a 500 yrd shot from it if you were out in the open... and a group of Brits could keep a lot of guys pined down for a long time at longer distances.

UnPat...

The only thing I did to the BHPs was remove the Magazine disconnecter - improved the trigger a whole bunch - of course, Mas Ayoob (sp?) is now cursing me to hell - but it is the best thing you can do to a BHP.

I finely done doo'd it.

It took about 20 years, but I stuck an AR :((

I was trying to find a specific velocity load for my SP-1 CAR (2950 fps w/55gr Sierra BK), and I loaded a bunch of loads from real low to max - and I started shooting from the low end like I would with a bolt gun - first round (at a whoppin 2350 fps) stuck a case in the chamber...

... Boogers!! :(((

And I couldn't get it out at the range - more Boogers!!

At the house, I put a 12" long piece of 1" dowel on the charging latch and pushed it down so it wasn't locked, and then hit the dowel with a 4 pound hand sledge ("softly")... the bolt easily riped the rim off rim of the shitty Fed case - then I locked the bolt open and knocked the case out with a cleaning rod - the little SP-1 is fine. It's one tough little puppy!

It's one of the first guns I'd grab if the world got dark and scary...

When I go back to the range, I'll start from the other end of the ammo box, and work down.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, June 22, 2008, at 21:51:08 (ZULU)

Boltster - if you do a bit of archive searching, you'll see where I tested several of those infernal sticks. The way I remember putting it was that the proper pronunciation of CETME was "shat-me". As much as I enjoy a good HK91, I won't - WILL NOT - have a shat-me in the house.

But 'Lito - an SP1? Whatever you do, don't try an XCR.

As far as pistols go, I put a premium on reliability. Think of it this way - if the carbine goes out of ammo, malfs for some reason, etc, you go to the pistol, eh? That means the pistol is the last line between really viable weapon and your hands. I'll take every bit of reliability I can get, in something that still fits in my hands and sets on the belt well. Add to that the fact a pistol is always on you - it should be about as foolproof and rugged as it gets. As for me? I'm gonna order some alumagrips for the BHP, in expectation of testing the 1911 in dirt.

Speaking of dirt, you should see all the red clay that is lining my Serpa holster! I'm glad it isn't leather - I'm gonna throw the Serpa in the sink and flush it until the water comes out clear.

So I'm paring down on the assault vest. Just what I need, nothing I don't. Mostly. Now what I need to do is figure out a good patrolling vest - you know, for all those times I'm out on patrol 8p

Which brings me to Duman's post!

I'm splitting up some mags. Pistol mags will have NO flap over them, and certainly no velcro. But I'll put a one (maybe a two) mag pouch closer to my midline with a fastex buckled flap on it. That's the emergency reserve / right handed load. Trying to do a right-hand-only manipulation when the mags are on your left hip ain't fun or easy.

And yes, I'm gonna get one of those rollypollies. My favorite piece of kit for the course (non-weapon LOL!) was my instructors belt from The Wilderness. Love it! Worst piece of kit? I guess I'll be nice and not declare it the "worst" but "too fragile" - the Pmag. Great square range mag though!

And Duman, I expect to see one if not two HK USP tactical 45s at the next course. Use it well, you're gonna be every bit as much of my guinea pig as Tom was running that M1A scout ;-)

Bravo
Sunday, June 22, 2008, at 23:03:59 (ZULU)

Lito:

You read too quickly.

Travis is the one offering money for the 500m BHP shot.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 01:06:52 (ZULU)

Bravo:

I take it the Serpa holster design gets your vote?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 01:15:08 (ZULU)

rod...

Ok.

I fix! :)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 01:49:25 (ZULU)

Just thought I would share a newpaper article that had an interesting title...

BWG...

Link... or click name

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/t_mourge/posters/34.jpg

Morgue

To resist Evil is to take a passive role.

To fight Evil is to be proactive.

To kill Evil, you must be willing to wear Evil's mask.

Removing the mask is tough.

Deal with it!

Mourge
SD, PRCa, - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 03:09:10 (ZULU)

Mourge...

Good thing those 17 guys "remained" dead - I'd be worried if they came back from the dead ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 04:09:46 (ZULU)

Vests: I like Eagles Universal Chest Rig, which Paul Howe helped develop. I took off the right side utility pouch, and mounted a Tactical Tailor Modular Holster for my Glock 23. So, in that one rig, which literally takes less than 5 seconds to put on, I have 8 AR mags, 4 pistol mags, the Glock, a flashlight, and a first aid pouch. All I have to do is grab my AR, and I'm ready for a respectable fight.

The magazines are located toward the center of your body, where they are accessible to either hand. The smart way to utilize them is to start feeding from the outside on your support side, so the ones not used stay close to the centerline and more accessible to your strong hand if you need to switch hands.

And it'll fit right over your body armor, if you have that. Cheap, too - less than a hundred bucks.

Click on my name for the link.

Lindy
Hanging out near Creede, Colorado, U.S.A. - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 04:11:57 (ZULU)

Lito:

Thanks for the revision :-)

One of my Cdn Navy officer shooting buddies privately owns an Inglis Hi-Power that was the issue service pistol for a Canadian Naval officer during WWII. (The WWII officer's daughter arranged to have the inherited pistol passed on to her husband - the current owner). That unit has the tangential sights too. I got to shoot it last week, although "only" at say 15 meters. I'll have to check and see if it has the shoulder stock cutout. I have my doubts, I don't think the Canadian service pistol version was issued with shoulder stocks.

Ironically, there are no Canadian federal regulations or legislation about pistols and shoulder stocks, so he could gear it up with same if he wanted to...

That raises an interesting question. I could purchase a shoulder stock accessory for my Glocks to be used in Canada. Does such a thing have sufficient utility to warrant the expense? Given the short sight radius on a pistol, it's not clear to me that it's worth the effort.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 04:16:15 (ZULU)

PMAG's failed the Bravo test?

Interesting.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 04:45:29 (ZULU)

I gotta hear how Bravo broke the P Mags. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Monday, June 23, 2008, at 09:22:01 (ZULU)

Erik,

Right now, my main carry gun is a Ruger Vaquero Sheriff's model in .45 Colt. I LOVE that little bastard! It has just the right heft that it just begs me to pistol whip someone.(I don't carry it around my inlaws) Bear in mind, though, that I really don't go to town much, besides going to the feed store. I mostly only leave the house to go to the pasture, and I generally have a rifle or two in the truck, in case I see some coyotes or just want to do some shooting. I AM kinda wanting to get an S&W DA revolver (686) in .45 Colt for a carry gun.

MY main reason for carrying the Vaquero is because we hit a financial tight spot, and I hocked my Sig 220, with the understanding that we'd get it back when my wife got her school money. Well,(SURPRISE!!!)she fucked me on that deal, so I lost my favorite gun, 9 magazines, and a mag/light holder on a $300 loan. BUT, I'm trading a guy some leatherwork for a 220 Elite and a Streamlight with the laser combo that attaches to the rail. Kind of a stupid toy, but, what the hell. I always wanted one. I guess it'll be handy for checking the chicken house when we move to the country.

The Sheriff's model fits really nice in a pocket, though. It rides pretty well in the plier pocket of my Dickies brand duck cloth pants. I have a pair of the 4 5/8" Vaqueros in the same caliber, and a Blackhawk in .357, but the Sheriff's model is more handy to carry. With the Birdshead grip, it doesn't seem to hang up on stuff the way a standard grip does.

Guys,

Anyone else seen the preview for some new movie with Angelina Jolie wherein some idiot is slinging his pistol out to the side to "throw a curve" with the bullet? I wonder how many people will get killed because idiots see this and decide to try it? I believe I'll be avoiding the public ranges for a while.

Bravo,

Oklahoma red dirt is permanent.

Rod,

In this day and age, I'd say the only reason to put a stock on a pistol is because you want to.

If I were still working on ranches and riding 20 miles or more a day, I'd consider it for killing coyotes. I really hate carrying a rifle in a scabbard under my leg, as it's uncomfortable, tends to confuse horses that I've trained to pick up the slightest leg cue. Not to mention the fact that the rifle is just that much more added weight, and horses tend to be hard on guns when they lay down on them, fall over on them, or have a bucking fit that dislodges your gun in a high, violent arc, right in the middle of a rockpile.

Medication country:

I honestly don't see how people become addicted to pain meds; I HATE them! I still can't go a full day without them, but I hate the "doped up" feeling. I've got relatives that would sell their organs for the big bottle of Percocet 10's the Dr. gave me, but I can't wait to get off of them.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 12:22:33 (ZULU)

Bravo, you like the Serpa Holster? Damm I hate that plastic POC. For field use I like some protection. For everyday carry I like leather for a holster.

On Velcro also called Hook and Loop. It is not all the same. Some wont hold up in dirt and some will.

For mag pouches you can find them that have velcor and then fold in when you get into harms way. Then mags are held in place by elastic/bunge cord retainers. These work well.

For carry rigs. I have not seen the one Lindy talked of but been using an Arkis vest that works real well.

On grips I would stay away from metal grips unless you plan to stay in weather no colder than 40 degrees and no warmer than 80 degrees. Try G10 for grips you wont be sorry.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
ca, - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 15:07:53 (ZULU)

Joe M and others...

The attached link relates to a guy in Florida that is making aluminum DM setups that work with the AI mags for Howa and Winchesters.

Thought you might be interested.

http://www.snipershide.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=643935&gonew=1#UNREAD

medicjim
Monday, June 23, 2008, at 16:03:27 (ZULU)

Serpa Holsters:

I hate 'em. They're too damn stiff and ugly. When they came out, this kid at Sportsmens warehouse kept humping my leg, telling me how wonderful they are, and trying to get me to buy one. Finally, I told him,"You can like 'em all you want; I'm still not gonna buy one."

For retention, I like my Safariland paddle holster. Nice, low profile, and nearly impossible to destroy. I've crawled around and rolled over on mine, and it hardly shows any wear at all.

To get the holster to release, you simply grab your gun and rotate the butt to the rear ten degrees.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 16:03:53 (ZULU)

"P-Mags failed the Bravo test?"

Yep, it sure did. Although I'm not sure WHAT could pass a Bravo test.... a lump of granite?

Duman
Monday, June 23, 2008, at 16:18:39 (ZULU)

Serpa holsters. Yes, they're stiff. I can't think of a good reason that a combat pistol holster should be pliable. Your release finger is just where it should be when unholstering, along the trigger guard, where it naturally falls in training and real life. If all you have to do is rotate a pistol backward to get it out, some miscreant is gonna try, and maybe succeed, in a fight. They don't rot, mildew, or sag. Shrugs off rain, dirt, just about anything you throw at it. And it works, every time. I don't own stock in the company, I just know what works. They're catching on like gangbusters in LE and security fields. My .02 worth.

Oh, did I mention that they're FAST?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 16:29:37 (ZULU)

Charles,

With the Safariland, it'd be damn hard for someone else to get it out of your holster, unless you braced yourself and helped them disarm you. When I first got mine, I tried like hell to get it out of the holster, and couldn't without looking at the instructions. Hell, for that matter, I had to take my pants off, too, because I couldn't get the paddle to let go of my pants!

They're also all synthetic, and, I think, more durable than the Serpas. When I said the Serpas were too stiff, I guess I shoulda worded it better. They just feel more like they were built to be hung on a cinder block than a human body.

As for speed, I really like this holster. It kinda forces me to draw properly. It's thin enough that I can keep my trigger finger straight, so it lands on the trigger guard when the gun clears.

By gripping the gun and rocking the grip backwards, you're drawing in a manner that causes you to clear and point your muzzle as soon as it clears, then push the gun forward and up. Even if I didn't like this holster for everyday carry, I'd keep it as a training tool to work on my draw.

As for the Serpas catching on with LEO's, that means nothing. Most LEO's are notoriously horrible shots, and sheep where guns and gear are concerned. If someone has a neat looking piece of gear, they decide that they need one, too. .....they just have no idea why they needed it. This is my theory why so many carry (and ND with) Glocks.

........... I'm the only one in the room qualified to operate a Glock forty....... ;0P

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 17:01:20 (ZULU)

Hey Travis,

How well does that holster work when it's on your right side and you have to use your left hand to get it out ? Just wondering....

On another note.. a while back your recommended some type of fly spay for horses... What was it ? I'm over run this year with green heads and nasty big ol' horse flys and they are eating the young philly up.

Stay safe

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 17:12:38 (ZULU)

Travis,

Do you have a link to that Safariland holster you're using? I'm not familiar with Safariland products.

Duman
Monday, June 23, 2008, at 17:25:35 (ZULU)

Guys,

Hornady has come out with special match ammo for M-1 Garands. Click. Anyone know why normal .30-06 ammo would be bad for a Garand? I'd never heard of such a thing. Is it just a really clean load, so you don't gunk up the system, or loading to optimum pressure for the gas system? This is why I talk to you old farts; I don't know none of this stuff, and I'm sure my boy's generation will need me to know. (Feel free to donate historical rifles to me)

Calvin,

It works just as well as any other retention holster when you try to use it with the wrong hand..... horribly!

The fly spray is called Flicks. It's made by a company called Animal legends. The best deal I found was with Stateline Tack. $36 or so before shipping to make 2 gallons, but I mix it to half strength, so you'd get four gallons. If you use it at full strength, some horses will get hives or a rash. Most of the retailers I've found sell it with a spray bottle and an 8 oz. bottle of concentrate, but that ends up making the shipping higher, so you're better off getting the bigger bottle of concentrate.

I'm gonna have to order it online, I guess, since the only place I'd found near me that carried it didn't have it after I'd driven 40 or 50 miles to buy some. (AFTER the wife told me to call ahead and make sure they had it!)

Your local feedstore will carry Pyranha brand fly spray/wipe. It's just as good, but Flicks is organic and water soluble, so I prefer it. I think I paid $13/bottle the other day. They also sell it in an aerosol, but the horses generally don't stand very quietly for it. I kinda prefer to wipe it on with a rag. Then I hang the rag near the feed bunk as an extra measure to keep the flies away.

Duman,

I couldn't find mine(because I'm comfortable, and don't wanna get up and look) but the 0708 looks like it. There's a little spring loaded doohickey in there that latches onto your triggerguard, and won't let go until you rock the butt of your pistol to the rear like you're trying to flip the muzzle up.

The paddle has a hole in it, and there's a wedge on the back of the holster that sticks through the hole, effectively locking it onto your pants. You pretty much have to take your britches off to remove the holster. If there's one thing I'd change about it, I'd maybe cut a half or full coil off the spring so it's not so hard to rock back and draw. Being a former horseshoer, I have a helluva grip, and I think it's a little too stiff.

If I get on with the Sheriff's office after I get all healed up and back into shape, I'm hoping I can use this rig.

http://www.safariland.com/product.aspx?pid=0708

They have another rentention type called ALS, or "automatic locking system", but I don't like using my thumb as well as using my grip. I might miss a thumb tab, but I won't miss my grip, especially on a Sig 220 with Hogues on it. It's big, sticky, and hard to fumble.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 18:14:30 (ZULU)

Rod, I like the Serpa. I’m not claiming it to be THE thing, or that I’m some “in the know” combat guru – I’m not. And one negative is the thing doesn’t want to let go of the pistol if I’m trying to draw weak-handed. But for a strong-side holster, it’s fast, rugged, and really good in my opinion.

I tried it with the optional duty belt hanger – the one that puts the tip of the hammer on a 1911 at the same height as the top of the belt, not the drop-leg platform. The reason was I wanted to have plenty of room to clear the mag pouches on my vest. After the course, I’m willing to say a better idea –at least for me- is mount the holster on the belt as normal, and get rid of the pouch that was in my way. Thus my comment on paring down the assault vest.

I’m thinking that my next move will be a 2-part thing. I’ve ordered another Alessi holster (should be here in a short 24 weeks or so!) so I can “stay with what I know” – but for a different pistol (the BHP). Part 2 is trying to find someone to make that Alessi holster out of kydex. If part 2 doesn’t work out, then I’ll buy one of the non-locking Serpa holsters to evaluate. It’ll be that or just stick with #1 and call it good. At least until the gear-whore bug bites again.

I was bothered by the concept of running a great Alessi holster into the dirt and such. But when I called them to put in the order, they offered to re-seal my old holster if I’d send it in – no charge. I’ve run this holster for at least 8 years, so the way I look at it now is I’m not going to ruin a 110FRN holster – I’ll be paying 10 or 20 bucks per year for a GOOD holster and not cry when it’s worn out ;-)

Lindy, that vest was pretty similar to what I was thinking over in my head. I’m gonna ruminate on the question for a while though. I’ve got so much “tactical nylon” at home now, I hate to buy more (that more than likely won’t be used) without significant thought. The only thing is I hate not being able to get down LOW in a prone, without laying on mags. I’m thinking that the mag pouches like Mike was talking about – with the little bungee cords that keep the mags in until you don’t want ‘em there anymore – are going to be my next attempt. I want a BUNCH of mag sticking up out of the pouch, so I can grab it fast.

Mike, on the metal grips, the reason I went with the alumagrips on the 1911 was ‘cause they were the thinnest I’ve ever seen / felt. I just ASSUMED that they’d also make slim grips for the BHP, but when I went to order this weekend, found out that assumption wasn’t valid. I’ll admit the metal grips got warm to the touch, but it was getting danged close to 100F on most of the days out there. Without the slimness incentive, I see no reason to go with metal.

So who makes the thinnest grips for the BHP? Anyone says “Glock”, I’m gonna clock ‘em.

Travis, yeah, that red Okie dirt is permanent on most stuff. Like boots, camelbaks, etc. Washed out of the Serpa nicely though.

Pmag issues:

At home, with the mags empty, I did some harsh treatment stuff to ‘em. They survived nicely. That included beating on steel, beating on pavement, and beating one on another. No problems. At the course, I was the only guy running ‘em – and I’d brought all I had, I’d bought 7 to T&E. Early on, the instructor (who IS a guru in my opinion) said that they’d gotten some Pmags there at the school for evaluation, and he killed one right off the bat. So I obviously wanted to know how he’d made ‘em fail, so I could replicate the test.

Will my mag fail? How will it fail? What will it take? THAT is education – and WELL worth the price of a mag!

With 28 rounds loaded in the mag, I tried a good throw into the ground. Not into rocks or anything, just into the grass, and much more down than out. It seemed OK – but then the next toss caught a piece of 2X4 on the side of the mag – a little lower than half way down. That throw was more “out” and much less “down”. The 2X4 was laying on the ground, nothing poking up, and it wasn’t secured into the ground. When it hit, some rounds spurted out, and the spine of the mag was cracked just under the right feed lip. The crack went around to the side, so that the round stack pushed the feed lip out to the right by a good bit. Enough that I didn’t even try to put it in the magwell, ‘cause I could see it wouldn’t fit, being that distorted. I knew where it hit the 2X4, ‘cause there was a mark from the wood on the mag.

At no point did I do anything to the Pmag that I felt a good steel mag wouldn’t stand up to. I’ll validate that specifically here soon – I’d done some nasty stuff to a steel bodied mag, but not specifically tried hitting it on the side with a 2X4. Are they good square-range / practice mags? You bet. One of the instructors I know at Gunsite told me that he’d run ‘em a year, and they made it through the course there just fine. If you don’t give your equipment “hard use”, I think they’d be great. Will they take a decent knock and keep going? I’m not willing to make that statement, no.

Duman was watching the whole thing. If you thought that what I did was harsher than – say for instance – having them in a mag pouch and running hard into a doorway, or if I’d jumped down onto that 2X4 going into “getting shot at prone” and caught the mag between my body and the 2X4, let me know. The way I see it though, they’re less durable than what I want to invest in. That’s me personally.

Anyone who says that I’m a bit harder on my gear than the standard Hummer driving over it, I’ll accept that too. But I know what my gear won’t stand up to.

Bravo
Monday, June 23, 2008, at 18:51:42 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I was teasing you on the 'blob of granite' comment. I wouldn't even call your P-Mag test 'abusive'.

Picture a gym bag with a bunch of loaded mags, you drop on the floor, it catches the corner of the coffee table. That's probably the scenario that might replicate the failure.

Bravo could have tossed the mag a dozen times, with no failures. But the one time he did, it cracked. Metal can be bent. Plastic is more challenging to repair.

Duman
Monday, June 23, 2008, at 19:17:14 (ZULU)

Travis: Serpa is catching on with mil-types, and I saw many on the kit of operators last tour:)) What works for you, and why it does is great--but mileage does vary (my last posts were on the topic of the differences I am only just starting to realize from army to civilian usage).

I tried the safariland 6004 in 2004 in Iraq. I started out loving it---it was FAST and ergonomicly perfect for me. I ended up hating it. It stuck out a bit off the leg, and grabbed anything near it for a tangle; the springloaded retention stirrup was a sand magnet that made the slick little thumb press release into a herculean task:(( And, leg holsters may be great for door kicking--they get old for all-day use. The Bh Omega solved the catch-all problem, but it still was a leg-rig. They're just not for me in temps above 100F.

I ended up placing mr. sidearm on my vest...and the serpa system has mega-options for that, leg rigs, belt wear, etc. Being frugal, I like a system over a shitload. The serpa, FWIW, does not seem to mind a little sand, either.

Bravo: The magwell is only so wide...the bullets are not gonna get skinnier...nobody can put enough plastic into those constraints and still get near the steel strength...and it is a valid point that ramming your vest mags-first into an obstruction will generate some force! It usually left a bruise on my left hip:))

Diesel country, revisited: I just ordered a few new mods to go with the old pipe, chip and intake: Bigger intake (afe stage II), a big-assed banks intercooler kit, a new turbo (~23psi), and, well, a different chip. All in the attempt to improve daily economy and towing economy (such as it is). There's a few lurkers that were interested in such things--so once i get the install done (after the brown santa arrives)--I'll post the improvements. Last time i ran the numbers for back-to-back tanks, I was good for 19.4 MPG on the highway with no load, no tailgate, and fresh synth oils+filters. The truck does ~16mpg between farm and town--and ~14mpg with the big goose neck 4-horse trailer, loaded. It has been above 20mpg, but only when i intentionally stayed below speeds and didn't push accelerations.

There you have it: The oil prices affected gun sales! I dumped my .50BMG cash into the truck:((

Joe M
Monday, June 23, 2008, at 20:18:46 (ZULU)

Duman,

Ain't you heard of JB Weld? It'll fix anything! I need to find the two part doughy kind, so I can smash it into my mother in law's beard and mustache and seal her misery hole.

Joe,

On the thigh holsters-As a kid who grew up watching westerns, even when I was little, I was "calling bullshit" on the guys with the tied down fast draw rigs. No real cowboy would wear that shit. It'd be impossibly uncomfortable to wear, just walking around in, much less trying to ride with it.

The only place I could really see myself using a thigh rig would be in a 3 gun competition, and it'd come off between runs. I agree that they're fast, but they're impractical. HOWEVER..... being as I'm not exactly running through the brush, looking for bears to whip just yet, I've found that my little Sheriff's model Vaquero in .45 Colt fits nicely in the plier pocket of my brown duck work pants. It sits a little lower than a thigh holster, but it's handy enough for around the house.

I've also considered the vest, as it really makes sense in certain situations, but I try not to damage the public's image of shooters. If I were to see myself on the news or in the paper, looking like a wanna be commando with SWAT vest or a thigh rig, I'd feel like a complete idiot.

I DO wish I could find a fishing vest that had some means of attaching a holster on the chest, though, for when I'm out fishing. I really don't want to try to kill a copperhead with a fillet knife and a fly rod, and I also don't want the "commando" look.

I guess I sound like I'm really self conscious about my appearance when I'm shooting, but I'm trying to be a GOOD role model for my stepson and any other young shooters I may influence.

I'm sure someone reading this has a "shoot me first" vest for every day of the week, and I've pissed them off, but I've found folks that are borderline anti's are a lot more receptive to listening to my line of reasoning when I'm dressed neatly, have my hair cut short, am clean shaven, and speak like I have some sense than say, this fella I see every time I go to the indoor range during the day. Always wears BDU pants and brown jersey gloves, a thigh holster, and some sort of "mattel mercenary" type T-shirt. I've seen him in there regularly for the last few years, and his slow fire 7 yard groups look like my 25 yard groups. I've only spoken a few words to him, but he just seems like the type that would jerk off to soldier of fortune, and is the real life inspiration for the "Dale Gribble" charcter on "King of the Hill".

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 20:29:13 (ZULU)

Joe,

Once you get all that stuff on your truck, and you get tired of it because you can't think of anything else to do to it. gimme a holler. I'll take it off your hands.

Are you still considering the greasecar SVO kit? I've been looking for an older diesel to run on veggie oil. I'll probably wait until my fat ass loses some weight before I start driving a truck that smells like french fries. I'll have to park it a block away from the house, anyway. My wife's a foot shorter than me, and at least 40 pounds heavier. She bitches about being fat while watching the food network and snacking.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, June 23, 2008, at 21:07:44 (ZULU)

Travis: I'm itching to swap the suspension on the front end for a coil-over 4-link conversion (ala newer fords)---dang front end is the ansolute worst design feature on the entire truck. Sell? Ha! I am sold on this 7.3L oilburner--this engine evolved to pre-regulatory perfection. No sense in upgrading to an EPA-choked new-standards' truck. I figure the big block gasser super duties will be el-cheapo (used market) from now on--so I can always buy a new body when this one rusts off the frame:)) Oh--I just put moog ball joints on (upper and lower). I lost the "center" position on the steering--the spot where the truck would default while rolling-- possibly due to the stiffness of these units; it is now a DUI flag for any LEOs following me. But I was tired of the ford OEM crapola balljoints--I replaced them faster than tires:(( In fact, they're tied with the steering damper for breakage/ wear-out. Front-end is the main weakness; that is next...tweaked performance/ tranny control was bumped to the head of the class on necessity (4.67/ga last fill up)

shat-me? Bravo...it's a copy of a copy; didn't you watch multiplicity?

Joe M
Monday, June 23, 2008, at 23:48:38 (ZULU)

JoeM-if you're spending that much on your oilburner, don't forget the exhaust gas temperature gauge and boost gauges. Tells you how hard you're working the engine (EGT) and how much fuel you're feeding (BG). Excellent way to avoid expensive repairs and can help on the fuel useage.

By keeping an eye on my boost and setting the hand throttle properly, I can cruise our big rig (+/- 30,000 lbs) on a level road between 55-60 and pull 10 mpg if there's no head wind.

WR Moore
Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 01:53:48 (ZULU)

By working the foot throttle properly, I can pace a corvette thru the 1/8th mile:))

In addition to those two gauges, I also watch my tranny temp. I have the anemic crown-vic tranny (4R100). It is under a warranty still--so if it goes before 200K, it'll subsidize either a BD built 4R100 or a full out ATS replacement unit. Meantime, I am sitting here trying to decide whether I need to go +3 qts over stock, or +8 with a bigger pan and aux filtering system. The +3qt is a B&M racing pan, the 8 quart'er is Mag Hytec ($$$). I run royal purple, so the 3 extra quarts seems like p-4-plenty to my wallet--while the 8qts seems like a really great overkill to my ego.

So far, this truck has taken out 4 deer (dead), a Tacoma and a mid-sized sedan (tacoma rearended me, and I slid forward into the sedan), and a Miata (it slid under my rear bumper--hello hitch--on ice). As strange as it is, there were no marks after each incident on body nor bumper. My ball hitch was half-tacoma paint, and my front tow shackles wore sedan paint for a bit--but nada else. The deer seem to have all committed suicide by aiming at the wheels (4 confirmed kills--two probables:)). Darn truck has my same luck: Just enough bad luck to make it seem like I have good luck! So, it's worth all the dimes:)) It also fullfilled my dream that started in the 9th grade or so to get a 3/4ton off road truck...heheh.

Joe M
Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 04:57:18 (ZULU)

Bravo: You surely know how to take some meat off the 1911 scales?

Take scales off pistola.

Lay scales flat on, oh..., 100 to 200grit sandpaper. Sand them enough to thin the scales.

Shorten scale screws.

Reassemble.

CDC
Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 05:16:55 (ZULU)

Joe,

The front ends on Fords are absolute garbage. On my explorer, if you brake while turning, something in the front end grinds, and you feel feedback that actually pushes the brake pedal back up! What a piece of shit.

It drives like a stagecoach with the factory setup; normal tires, good shocks, and no lift. The damn thing's tippy, even on flat ground at normal speeds in moderate turns. I hate driving it on the turnpike here because the straight line winds act like they could toss it over real easily.

Have you considered adding the vegetable oil system to your truck? The top notch sytem from greasecar.com will only run you about $1500. (or 321 gallons of diesel at 4.67/gallon.) With rodeo and horse show season coming up, you could pay that off in a month, easy!

Do you live near the Dells? When I was doing some work out there, I remember what a transmission eating bastard they were. First time in my life that I actually preferred an automatic tranny for pulling a trailer.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 05:20:04 (ZULU)

Those thinking about doing bio-fuels in diesels....... A year or two ago I read a big writeup about Bio-Diesel in one of the glossy publications found at truckstops. I've still got it somewhere. Anyhoo, they advised NOT to run biodiesel on anything made before 1996.

Looking at that date causes me to realize just how much water done flowed over the dam......Damn, my stuff is ancient.

The issue (supposedly) is the chemical composition of the various o-rings, seals and lines in the fuel system. Apparently, the bio (french fry included) diesel will cause failure of these items. Of course, if your stuff is that old, you could either replace all those items or do a scientific experiment about the effect of fry oil on older fuel systems and keep the rest of us posted.

There are definite limits to what percentage of bio-oils the various engine companies consider as advisable for use. IIRC, Cat says up to 30%. OK, some of that is probably cover their butt, on the other hand, a new long block-or fuel pump for that matter-would buy a whole lot of conventional diesel.

Knock wood, the front of our 1996 F250 is still solid. If anything happens to it, I'm going looking for a non-articulated front axle to hang under those springs.

WR Moore
Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 08:05:37 (ZULU)

The issue that's been manifesting with biodiesel as far as I've seen has been the increased fuel filter clogging due to the bio loosening stuff that previous petro diesel has deposited. Some trucks have a fuel pressure gauge on the low pressure(lift pump) side of the system so they can monitor filter flow. I've run a couple hundred gallons of bio through a 400 Big Cam NTC Cummins in an '81 Autocar with no issues yet, but that's only like three tanks full;) And it gets plenty of petrodiesel too, depends on where I'm at when fueling, bio isn't commonly available.

Drop holsters make sense when you hang all sorts of other gear along your midline, on top of armour. Compared to the 5.56 mags, frags or 40mm, misc admin gear like GPS/compass/LRF/cammie paint/etc, the pistol gets stuffed where you have room. I spent 7 monthes wearing a drop leg pistol holster whenever I had clothes on which was often 24hrs a day and I would say it's simply something you get used to.

As for pistols, I use 1911's and P35's for choice(seldom) and they work for me. May not work for you. That matters not at all to me. What I use probably shouldn't matter much to you;) Since the pistol is for when the rifle chokes and isn't convienient to clear, I don't really get all wrapped up in the pistol issues. Last time I did serious rifle training, I went through 1100+rds of Mk 262 analog in 3 days and had zero stoppages. We worked transition stuff anyways, but IMO, most folks should work more with their primary arm before they get too wrapped up in the pistol skills. More often than not, you'd be FAR better served getting the long gun back up than screwing with the pistol. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 11:28:04 (ZULU)

OK, Pistols and trucks.... One downside to the 1911 in thishere part of the country; its damn hard to get my fat finger on the trigger when wearing gloves (like 9 months of the year). I find myself carrying my CZ75 much more often....and with CorBon DPX ammo, I shouldn't think there would be any issues with performance. I shoot the same piece (CZ) in IPSC Production and at our SOF-style 3-gun matches and have had exactly zero mechanical failures. Run what ya brung when it comes to handguns...they's all compromises.

Diesel trucks.... one of the guys I shoot with has a Ford and runs straight ATF for fuel...he owns an auto shop and gets it free from servicing trannys. Says he's changed nothing in the Ford engine...works great...doesn't even filter it. Plus he doesn't have to deal with recycling/shipping/disposing of the used ATF. Something to consider if you have a source of "free". (of course, it may not meet EPA emissions standards either.)

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USofA - Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 13:11:23 (ZULU)

Many of the people wearing drop-leg holsters simply wear them too low. If you can't put your hand on the pistol in its holster with your elbow still slightly bent and without dropping your shoulder, it's too low.

I take the top leg strap off my Safariland 6004s, and adjust them so that my strong hand drops naturally onto the pistol. They move around a lot less that way, too. You just want them low enough so that you don't have interference from the stuff on your vest and belt when accessing the pistol.

Lindy
Hangin out near Creede, Colorado, U.S.A. - Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 14:49:56 (ZULU)

Ford Country:

So far,I can't complain too much about Angels Explorer.Noticed some tire wear so rotated the tires.Wear indicated a bad ball joint.Replaced the upper ball joint on the tire that showed the wear.Turns out it was the other side that was bad,replaced that one.The one that was actually bad was alot higher priced then the one that really wasnt.Also found one of the alignment wedges/cams wasnt installed properly.Hence,the premature wear on the b/joint and tire.The guy had put it in a 1/4 turn off...I dont know how he got it to fit right as when I tried puttin it back the way it was it wouldnt sit in the pocket.Looked at the book and at the one on the other side,put it in how I thought it should fit and its GTG...Steerin wheel centered(wasnt before)and has a very slight drift/fade to the right dependin on how severly pitched the road is.Used a work contact and got 4 new Michelins with a savins of about $30/tire.That tire is/was in process of bein phased out.Put on 4 new shocks at the same time.Ride isnt too bad.She was complainin about the muffler bein too loud,due to the large rust hole in it...Told her "Just run it,yer just lettin the citiots know we'er part redneck."

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, June 24, 2008, at 18:56:13 (ZULU)

Greetings,

Drop Leg Holsters: What Lindy said. Lots of folks like the Charlie Sheen holster on the knee look, but it is uncomfortable, pistol moves all over the place, including under you when prone, hinders movement of the leg.

Safariland 6004 works good for black kit, but green kit out humping I am not sure it is the way to go. It did well with moderate to light exposute to sand, but have heard from many other that once sand gets int the spring loaded relase for the keeper, its a booger. Used an old eagle low ride leg holster hard O conus about 15 years ago n a way sandy enviroment and had 0 problemsm For green kit, the old tanker rig shoulder holsters for 1911s used to work great.Fits over body armor too.

Never carried a serpa but know lots that do carry them everyday and love them.

FWIW.

Pat II
Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 04:21:38 (ZULU)

Sorry for the lack of editing on the last post. That was awful to try to read. That's what happens when you try to hurry. I would be surprised if anyone took advise on holsters from someone that spelled like Cletus the slack jawed yokel.......

Pat II
Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 04:47:14 (ZULU)

Here in Kabul, there's dirt in the air like you wouldn't believe. Everything is coated and covered in dirt in a very short time, and it gets in every crook and cranny. (what's a cranny, anyway?) Since I'm out on the street a lot, I get covered by the fine silt that the cars and trucks kick up, and the Serpa is sometimes FILLED with fine silt particles. It doesn't seem to notice. Now, I know that just because most LEO's (and security personnel) like it doesn't matter (what do they know, right?), but what works, works.

Getting hot here. Even at 6000 ft, it's hitting the 90's, and expect 100's soon. Lovely. If someone would invent a battery-powered cooling insert for body armor, they'd make a mint. And, if anyone knows about lightweight (relatively)hard plate inserts that are available commercially, LMK. These boat-anchors are killing my back.

Truck country. Ford, or GMC? I have a decision to make when this gig is over. Has anyone heard the rumor that Jeep is gonna put deisels in the Wrangler?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 05:49:59 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt:

Q: "Truck country. Ford, or GMC?"

A: Toyota.

CDC'
Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 11:06:18 (ZULU)

So Joe cuts to the chase – for the same thickness, plastic will always be weaker than steel. Now I have the option of sitting back and asking, “why didn’t I think of that?” – or just saying “DUH!” It appears my biggest choice now is coated carbon steel, or coated stainless steel.

Travis, I wear a bird hunters vest as my “cover garment”. Complete with shotshells in the loops. The difference is that the bottom row (6 on each side) is filled with slugs, the top row (3 on each side) is filled with double ought. It’s surprising how many people look at the vest and ask me where I’m going fishing (fishing with a 12 gauge?!?!) But the front-end of Fords are garbage? I do have to declare my disagreement.

CDC, I thought about doing that, but I wanted these thin enough that I figured there would be loss in the width too. Then I remembered a pair of Venezuelan ironwood grips I had a fellow make – to match the scales on my knife. They were made thin like I wanted, but the recoil started cracking ‘em in short order. That’s why I opted to go with aluminum instead...

The company I work for did a BUNCH of the up-front work on biodiesel. Now we supply the “big” manufacturers. There’s two different ways of making it, one is cheap, the other is good. In both cases, it’s just like Bill said – it’ll knock the crap out of your lines, crap put in there by petrodiesel. Most doesn’t play well with lesser quality o-rings.

And Ken, I agree whole-heartedly on the primary / secondary weapon, but it’s a matter of where and when. I agree someone in the military would be better off working the primary unless it’s just flat FUBAR, but for those of us in the CONUS continually, that’s not in the best spirit of the rules. Thus the “real” primary weapon for us is the pistol, only because it’s the thing always on us when out and about in society. The carbine, rifle, or shotgun only comes out when it’s time to play with a purpose. As I’m not a SWAT cop or such, the odds of the carbine, rifle, or shotgun coming out to play with a purpose are low. Thus I put more emphasis on the pistol than I would if I were a soldier. The way I see it, the odds are that if I get into a skirmish where I’ve got to shoot, it’ll be with a pistol.

Steve, have you tried dropping a short trigger in your 1911? With the short trigger in there, the draw length is significantly shorter than the CZ75. Not that I don’t love the CZ75 – and have a couple stashed ;-)

Bravo
Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 16:20:57 (ZULU)

Bravo wrote:

"...ask me where I’m going fishing (fishing with a 12 gauge?!?!) ".

A barrel? {grin}

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 16:45:26 (ZULU)

CDC....good call, amigo, good call. Toyota has the corner on the market in this corner of the world, with all the HiLux's, Surf's and Land Cruisers here, all in diesel. They seem to take a real beating and hold up well. Almost as well as my Nissan 4x4. But I'm hankiering after a BIG truck. And I'm not real fond of the style of the new Tundra, even if it is made in San Antonio.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 17:07:32 (ZULU)

Travis

" Hornady has come out with special match ammo for M-1 Garands. Click. Anyone know why normal .30-06 ammo would be bad for a Garand? I'd never heard of such a thing. Is it just a really clean load, so you don't gunk up the system, or loading to optimum pressure for the gas system? This is why I talk to you old farts; I don't know none of this stuff, and I'm sure my boy's generation will need me to know. (Feel free to donate historical rifles to me)"

Shooting factory loaded .30-06 can bend the operating rod due to higher pressures of the sporting rounds. Apparently Hornady wants to market new ammunition for the Garand shooters.

Jerry
Annapolis, Maryland, USA! - Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 17:16:36 (ZULU)

CDC: Toyota makes a good truck, but they do not import a diesel yet. The Hino-diesel-nissan trucks in the middle east were decent vehicles--probable EPA isues with them though. My take on it is you oughta have at least one oil-burner. Gas engines NEED gas, diesel engines will run on a variety of fuels not dependant on oil tankers, arabs, or refineries. It may not be practical for day to day--but emergency fuel beats walking. Diesels also have incredible performance potential, both in terms of performance and mileage--well, at least on the pre '04 trucks that are untouched by the new regulations. My 8500lb dry weight boat anchor can launch a surprise attack on unsuspecting GTs and C5s off the line, and can cruise highways at or near 20 mpg, and can do better!

Its a loop hole---gas engines had the EPA's evil eye for years, but their meddling only just discovered diesels:)) So, gas is OK if you can upgrade or buy into a flex-fueler that will burn high % of alcohol--and you assume risks of stripping uneconomic emmissions crap off. But it still needs a gasoline base fuel, and that shit doesn't store well nor is it mutli-sourced.

Auto trans fluid??? I once heard that, and it did not register as reality. I'll be danged! How easy is that! Today I am going to figure out how to inject myself into the local collections' business for hazmat. I have numerous certifications already from associations with airfields and motorpools, storage, transport and reclamation operations. Heheh; I never admitted this in public before:)) These certs usually flagged ya for REMF-type managerial jobs (word of mouth can also bite ya in the ass when you try to do your best). I was always scheming to hang out with the tip o' spear folks, so I hid as much of this kinda stuff as I could. Funny, I knew of guys who went to great legnths to stay out of harms way. I also knew of guys who got caught in CONUS backwaters who tried everything to escape to the action, up to and including career suicide burnt bridges. The army oughta have more of one type, and none of the other...Anyway, even if I only dump 1:4 ratio, it is still a savings...

Charles: OMG, the dust is bad there, but trust me--Iraq was worse. But it is NOT just the dust and dirt...feces will be present. Neither country has any sense for sanitation. Keep Zmax or cipro handy.

There are airflow devices (aircrew). After a glance thru a couple of catalogs: Bde QtrMaster, Thermotux cool-aid vest-body temp control, THV1-06 (tan)-05 (XL). PX also carries a coiled-plastic vest thing that increases airflow under the armor.

http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/level4c.tam?M5COPY.ctx=26402&M5.ctx=3599

You might also try the little scarf-tube thing that is filled with gel beads (like pampers)--PX has these too. Soak 'em in ice water before going out, or keep it on ice in a cooler--then lay it on your neck when it gets really hot. They have an incredible effect for such a cheesy product:))

Morgue introduced me to these things. I still have them.

http://www.diamondbacktactical.com -- This is where I ended up years back when the SHTF initially. They had stock on hand when I needed it. They also have strike plates that will shave 8-10 pounds from your kit, with e-sapi level of protection (for at least the first few rounds:)). This is pricey stuff. I just hit the weight room harder as age crept up:))

I suppose you could be innovative and get a "cool cop" hose kit, and one of those high-end blowers for NBC use (diamondback has these), and rig your own portable system using ice buckets for an intake:))....as for the aviation kit, a cursory browse thru my hard copies the 'net led me nowhere:((

Swamp coolers, fans with water spray, are amazingly effective. Not as good as refridgerants, but better than nothing. A spray bottle of water in your cooler (I know you are near one always) can help get you by 'til you find a PX or mail arrives.

BTW--Sorry Charlie (haha), I quit cope on ya, and ain't mailed any. I'm scared to buy it still!

Joe M
Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 17:20:46 (ZULU)

Bravo: caveat; my Ford front end is garbage! In 05, the superduty got the 4-link; prior it was a leaf/ shock system that says "axle wrap" on less-than-harsh terrain. It also has sterring damper that hangs lower than anything else on the vehicle. That math is easy--it gets torn off regularly. I have a calibrated eye-ball, and can tell 8 inch obstructions from 12, but I cannot tell soil compaction at a glance, so any displacement under my tires will show up as a 300 dollar replacement part following a real bad wallow down the road...Now, prior to the better suspension, the EPA started mandating diesel emissions (04, IIRC). Prior to the redesign to the current SD body, their suspensions were the best in the industry. My hell is I have the style I like, the engine I really, really like, a decent drivetrain, all with the front end of a Yugo. The good news is that many offerings exist to convert to coil over, 4 link, the bad news is they cost!!!

Charles: get a used diesel, pre-emmisions. And do it fast; they are already recognized as platforms for builds. Duramax owners are a happy bunch, but the new dodges are still hit or miss. My neighbor gave up on one--he is now driving a duramax, and another guy who delivers here traded his 08 cummings dodge for a duramax this very month. In 4 months, his was in the shop 5 times. The newest fords are diesel-guzzlers, with no legal fix in sight.

Hilux..toyota?? Oh...scratch the nissan reference in my last post. They sat this is the second thing to go. I say it is the third...as evidenced by the glass in front of my eyes for reading this keyboard:))

A barrel...hahahahaha.

Hmmm. many posts came up after I hit refresh the second time. wierd.

Oprod damage is an issue with M1As too. I thought maybe that might be the problem with garands too, but did not know enough to state that. Gotta love that steel buttplate after about a hundred rounds of prone shooting...

Been playing with my Vaqueros lately (have a stock pile of 45LC ammo). SAA style sidearms are funfunfun to shoot. Single loading thru the side is not...

Holy cow! The brownshorts santa just arrived with the first parts for the truck! Power elbow and AFE stage II (gawd, it is HUGE).

Joe M
Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 18:06:51 (ZULU)

Joe - "That math is easy--it gets torn off regularly. I have a calibrated eye-ball, and can tell 8 inch obstructions from 12, but I cannot tell soil compaction at a glance, so any displacement under my tires will show up as a 300 dollar replacement part following a real bad wallow down the road..."

You forgot about the "instant deceleration to 0"...... :-P

RE: Plates. Seems to me I saw a vendor at "that other site" who was selling armor plates. Claimed good for centerfire rifle, and he posted test results. They were lightweight polyethylene, and ran $175 and up. Anyone know anything about these?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 18:48:01 (ZULU)

Dyneema (polyethylene) has it's shortcomings...heat and M855 to name two

Mix it with steel or ceramic as a backing and you may have something.

medicjim
Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 19:35:49 (ZULU)

Anyone watch that new show, "inside American jails"? I was flipping through channels last night, and was disgusted by what I saw on this show. The jailers at the Tulsa Co. Jail were trying to search a drunk.

Had a guy on each side holding him, one guy searching,a chick holding a taser on his shoulder, then some little reheaded punk jumping around the preiphery, waiting on his chance for a cheap shot. Well, the drunk struggled a little bit, so this redheaded asshole whips out his pepper spray and sticks it in this guy's face. (The chick with the taser was still in position) They told the guy if he moved again, it'd be taken as a sign of aggression, blah, blah... Well, they guy moved, and the chick tased him. (I didn't really think it warranted tasing, but then I'm not abusing equal opportunity to get a job I'm not physically able to do) Then, this redheaded bitch starts spraying him WHILE he's being tased!

While they're dragging the drunk to a cell, the redheaded bitch (RHB for short, from here on) is obviously trying to tear up the guy's shoulder, as he's carrying him with an arm bar hold. They never did bother to give the guy any eyewash.

After they got the drunk in the cell, they're interviewing RHB, and he's got his chest stuck out, talking about how he had no choice, blah, blah.....

I hope the little bastard gets assraped. This is the kinda criminal with a badge that needs to be shot like a chicken killing dog, once he's found to be such a lowlife. I sincerely hope the drunk gets a copy of the tape and a good lawyer.

There should be laws to convict RHB's coworkers for not arresting or at least reporting him for such flagrant abuse of power. What a cocksucker.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 21:56:47 (ZULU)

Click. Damn good story.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 21:58:20 (ZULU)

Mr. Morgan. A few posts back, you made mention of trying to get on with a local Sheriff's Dept. Please, Please, do so. It'll be a hoot hearing your breathless rants about "crooked cops" and "criminals with a badge" come to a screetching halt. Methinks, however, that the required MMPI test will preclude you. Sheesh....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 23:53:54 (ZULU)

re: Garands and M1A op rods

Supposedly the M1 Garand op rod is at least as "sensitive" as that in the M1A.

From my Mar/1998 posting in rec.guns newsgroups on the topic of commercial ammunition in M1 Garands:

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.guns/msg/0398782589318c1b?hl=en

I was curious about this, since commercial SAAMI-spec .30-06 ammo

typically does *not* have a warning about avoid use in the Garand.

Here are my notes from when I called around to get the straight scoop:

08-Jan-97 I spoke with Chris @ Olin/Winchester on the phone.

He indicated that their commercial .30-06 ammunition using

projectiles below 180g (i.e. 150g, 165g) is compatible with

the gas port characteristics of the M1 Garand.

\\\\

08-Jan-97 I spoke to Brad at Federal Cartridge on the phone.

Their .30-06 ammunition up to and including 180g is suitable

for the M1 Garand.

They actually do some testing with M1 Garands.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 01:07:58 (ZULU)

SCOTUS to release Heller decision on 26-Jun-2008 10:00 Eastern.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/death-penalty-barred-for-child-rape/

At the close of Wednesday’s public session, Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., announced that the Court will issue all remaining decisions for the Term at 10 a.m. Thursday. The test case on whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a gun is among those remaining (District of Columbia v. Heller, 07-290).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 01:26:43 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt,

TJ told us, at Badlands, about some of your adventures together. I'm glad you're still here with us (on earth). Did he show you his broken Glock?

Duman
Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 01:56:23 (ZULU)

'Yotas-last time I was picking up propietary parts from the @#$% dealer, I asked when they were going to build a serious (3/4 ton or up) pickup with a diesel. I was told it's in the works.

While I'd really like to see them do it, I'm not real sure I could afford one if/when it happens. I'd really like to find a diesel I could drop into my 92 when the 22RE finally gives out. Currently at 256K and counting.

WR Moore
Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 04:14:31 (ZULU)

***Edited***

Charles,

First, I seriously do intend to try to get on with the Sheriff's dept., if I can recover enough from this surgery that I think I have any business doing so. If I don't think I'm in the physical shape necessary, however, I'll not bother.

What's an MMPI test? If you're referring to the psych. exam, I have no doubt that if you can pass it, anyone can, judging by your blind allegiance to anyone with a badge, no matter how guilty or immoral.

As for my opinion changing after having "been there", I doubt that it will. Right and wrong are pretty damn clear. If my kid does something wrong, he deserves the same treatment as anyone else's, whether one of his parents is a cop, a judge, or a criminal. I don't approve of folks using their connections to get away with doing wrong, and having the ability to do it won't change my way of thinking.

I'm sure you're just as disgusted as everyone else with the way our government is run, with all these buddy buddy deals where people like Ted Kennedy getting away with DUI's, vehicular manslaughter, and other things that would ruin anyone else's life, but then you jump up and defend cops who use their influence to get away with other stuff. It's the same damn thing. WRONG IS WRONG, whether it's a crooked senator or your best friend.

WR Moore,

What I'd like to see Toyota do is start selling their diesel crew cabs like they sell in Australia and Africa here in America.

I'd also like the cabs done like the new Land cruisers, where you can just open the doors and hose them out. I'd really like to see them with Rhino lining or something similar on the floor. A crew cab diesel 4WD would be perfect for fence crews, in my opinion.

I just wish they'd raise the top of the cab another 6 inches or so, and make the roof another foot wider, as guys my size(over 6 ft.) tend to have to duck down if wearing a hardhat, and if the front tire drops into a hole, I'll often whack my head on the top of the door.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks. , U.S.A. - Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 05:05:22 (ZULU)

Second ammendment is an individual right, and a general ban on handguns is unconstitutional:))

Justice Stevens dissent opinion is one scary-assed screed from a turnip that got himself a lifetime appointment to a powerful place. Holy shit; with his statement: "(the majority) would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons." He said such evidence "is nowhere to be found."

Huh?!!!!!!!!

The entire constitution is designed to limit the tools available...how in the fuck can this clown be a justice at that level and put such idiocy into writing??? The court balances on another moron, Kennedy--or is one pulse away from tyrrany.

Joe M
Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 15:44:08 (ZULU)

Duman: No, he hasn't shown me the Glock, yet. I'll have to see it, if it's still broken, when I rotate back to CONUS. That won't be until the end of August. As for "adventures", yeah, we've had a few. How I survived most of them, well, "drunks and fools". I've been both, at times.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 16:14:47 (ZULU)

Click for synopsis of SCOTUS 2d ammendment ruling. Also has link to actual text of opinions.

looks good so far...

Joe M
Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 16:29:46 (ZULU)

Justice Stephen Breyer wrote a separate dissent in which he said, "In my view, there simply is no untouchable constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to keep loaded handguns in the house in crime-ridden urban areas."

--this guy is a tool also. Anyone who holds that there is no untouchable right in the constitution---think about this for a minute---no untouchable right IN THE CONSTITUTION--is a menace to a free society. OK, so he is speaking on the right to regulate a right that was in question---arms; but that kind of thought is the same shit that gets us to the "fairness doctrine," hate crimes, and you-name-it victimless crimes. It is only a matter of who shot johny befotre his kind restricts speech, the press, religion, ummmm....he already fucked us outta property....

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., a leading gun control advocate in Congress, criticized the ruling. "I believe the people of this great country will be less safe because of it," she said.

---no surpise here. She is merely a representative to a whacky majority that collected in the sewer of post 60s SanFran. Elected asshats do not bother me too much--we deserve what we get there. Appointed asshats, OTOH, are there for life and unaccountable to all but God (or any of his self-appointed agents acting on his behalf:))

I get so disgusted with the legal profession, and federal courts in particular. There are two ways to attack this--without and within. From my utter contempt flows a desire to sit for 3 years to enter this world.

Charles: My tremendous respect for you just ratched up a notch. Ignoring that barb is the right thing to do...especially since we have been down that road many times already:))

Joe M
Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 17:14:00 (ZULU)

Joe M wrote "--or is one pulse away from tyrrany."

There is the whole bit about getting the police and military to cooperate in confiscating the citizens guns....so maybe two pulses?

There are some really great quotes on the first couple screens of this website

http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0300.htm

medicjim
Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 18:44:45 (ZULU)

I just can't wait to see violent crime take an enormous fucking nosedive in Boston, D.C., and a few other places that were "safer without guns". Congrats to all of you living in the oppressed states.

Hopefully, this will lead where I want it to, and California will have to stop regulating everything out of existence. The way I figure, if some guy in California wants a bayonet and a drop grip on his single shot .410, that's his own damned business.

I doubt it WILL go that way, what with Heller only coming out 5-4. The four need to be publicly horsewhipped for being so damn stupid.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 18:48:21 (ZULU)

With the SCOTUS decision on the 2nd, I'm going to enjoy watching the legal ciaos in palces like New York City, where only 500 people (out of over 7,000,000+), have pistol permits that are not work related - and Blumberg thought that the 500 were "Way too many"

HA!

Double HA!!

The line at the PD for permits will go for miles.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 20:09:34 (ZULU)

re: Heller decision

I have my doubts that Heller will open the floodgates for CCW in "we rarely issue" jurisdictions. However, places like Chicago or San Francisco that have outright ban on handgun possession even in residences are *very* vulnerable to a new legal challenge.

http://hoosieraccess.com/blog/2008/06/26/dc-v-heller-fallout-nra-filing-lawsuits/

The NRA’s Wayne LaPierre is announcing today the National Rifle Association is filing lawsuits in US District Courts against the City of Chicago and all of the Chicago suburbs that passed firearms bans, the city of San Francisco, among other cities in the US that passed firearms bans to get their firearms laws overturned on the basis of new case law with today’s Heller decision.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 21:01:37 (ZULU)

They can overturn all these BS "this caliber" or "this rifle" or "that Pistol" and any .50 caliber bans too while they're at it....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Thursday, June 26, 2008, at 21:38:01 (ZULU)

re: Heller and Chicago

Gee, they filed suit 2 minutes after Heller affirmation announcement at 10:13 Eastern. I would guess they already had it written up and ready to submit. Were they standing at the clerk's office with electronic communications device in-hand?

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/supreme.court.handguns.2.757471.html

"... The Illinois State Rifle Association filed a lawsuit with just that purpose in mind at 9:15 a.m." (Central)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, June 27, 2008, at 00:25:50 (ZULU)

SCOTUS

The ruling will not change the municipality, city, or state's power to regulate what types of firearms, magazine capacity, or ammunition.

Or does the decision overturn those ordnances/laws as well?

Duman
Friday, June 27, 2008, at 01:52:49 (ZULU)

re: Heller

Duman - The material I have reviewed suggests that they cannot outlaw whole categories of firearms that are in common usage (like handguns, for example). Less clear about calibers, ammunition and magazine capacity.

I suspect there is going to be a whole lot of billable hours generated for constitutional lawyers before all the dust settles. It will likely take years.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, June 27, 2008, at 02:06:22 (ZULU)

The next lawsuit they can file is against DC for not permitting the registration of "automatic and semi-automatic" pistols. Apparently, the phrase "in common use at the time" hasn't penetrated yet.

WR Moore
Friday, June 27, 2008, at 08:53:38 (ZULU)

Joe M: It is surprising how stupid our Masters are.

Travis: You may want to edit that post some more.

CDC'
Friday, June 27, 2008, at 13:05:46 (ZULU)

Breyer's take on the second ammendment, in his own words, is in direct condradiction to his take on the fifth in back to back rulings. It is this very inconsistancy that should alarm us (regardless of our party affiliations). You "pick and choose" among the constitution for the rights one likes to rule one way, then to rule another on rights we disagree with--this is extremely dangerous thinking, let alone judicial fiat. It is also the hallmark of a democracy--which is why our founders shied away from that cesspit so strongly. Just read article IV, section 4 for a very precise explanation on this very topic. So very few ever have!!!

But my larger point is this: There are many in places of power, put there by us, who think that we should move fast toward direct demcracy (abolishing, or rendering null, the electoral college; "original intent" interpretations of the clauses and ammendments--where we try to view the words adjusted for "convenience as defined by someone today;" and the assumption of rights extrapolated or made up wholecloth beyond any written word). This is an ongoing battle. In this supreme court session, we scaped by with one ammendment intact more or less, and another stretched beyond our borders to hamstring the executive branch beyond any and all reason.

In all, I'd say it was not all that good for america this time around.

What is desperately needed is two more justices' who are devoted to "original public meaning" of the constitution, replacing any of the known four and the suspect one.

If you do not know who, by name, this refers to--you are ignorant of a critical aspect of our nation. This is not a slam, but it is a wake up call. The info is all over the place--take some time and get to know this shit. Knowledge is all that we have in terms of hope.

Joe M
Friday, June 27, 2008, at 16:02:05 (ZULU)

Skip my next two posts if ecomomics gives you a headache:))

Points to ponder:

1. Demographics of US populations is never taken into account for its economic impacts, either good or bad. Workers tend to live far enough from work to ensure the need to drive...

2. Inflation is a cancer that spreads slowly. Once reigned in (and it is far from that now)--it still creeps into pricing 'downstream" from the basic commodity. Example, criude oil upticks will eventually worm its way into the price of an egg that gets trucked to market; it is a cacading effect of charging more at each step to make up for the losses. It spreads slowly--so if we do not see it today, expect it tomorrow on any given product.

3. The baby boomer mass retirement is begining. The decline in stock value (last two days, including now are bad) will hurt the hell out of these guys, even as the dollar itself declines.

4. Federal spending is recklessly trying to pace this, with at least one candidate for president promising an explosion of more spending (go back to inflation)

5. The fed is poisoning the dollar's value in a vain attempt to shore up the housig market---where the majority of us find our net worth.

6. Politicians, and most Americans, still wish this to be a series of individual economic problems for individual fixes. It is a systemic problem, however...and any single focused fix proposed or implemented has effects elsewhere in the system; we are doing more harm than good--and reinforcing this failure with more of the same.

7. Any politician speaking truth to power on this will be out of a job...we, as a nation, WANT an economic meltdown, albeit in a blind ignorance. Any simple fix is preferred, even if it misses the mark on ten other larger problems.

My original two years' to the worst is possibly correct. The indicators keep on telling me that I could be way too optimistic, but the resiliencies of various market segments--human factors of investing on the downstrokes etc, will take some time to adjust to a new reality. So, when the market rebounds, do not follow the sheep! It will, as will the dollar, while the larger trend is down. Printing money did not help the Weimer republic, so why are we expecting a different result now? Short of spending restraint in congress (baby boomers will make this fun to watch, eh) and a federal reserve move to shore up the dollar (and the loss of the housing market and most credit in the short term)--we are in the spiral. Neither option for the fix is forthcoming--and at this point--it must be both. PONR is here or past, IMHO.

A smart fella is thinking in terms of "on-hand" stocks of his favorite consummables. From ammo components to flour...

Joe M
Friday, June 27, 2008, at 16:52:12 (ZULU)

Ammo and Reloading,

Do any of you have experience with MagTech ammunition, or components? I'm looking at brass, and they seem to have MagTech in stock just about everywhere. Maybe that's a sign.... :8-\

Shotguns: After this course at Badlands, I'm planning on more training with shotguns. Also, CDC' pointed me to some Awerbuck videos, which I purchased and watch. I want to start reloading for shotgun, but this is completely new territory for me.

How many of you reload shotgun? What types of loads do you develop (birdshot, buckshot, slug, other?). Equipment, etc.?

Thanks in advance.

Duman
Friday, June 27, 2008, at 17:20:08 (ZULU)

Oil will be our commodity, but only for purpose of discussion. It could be any commodity from corn to copper.

An investor, whether institutional or individual, will strive to obtain a return larger than his investment, period. That is his job, and his perogative. If money represents property, it is his right too. If the dollar itself is worth less tomorrow than a dollar today, this must be accounted for in returns. What good is it to turn $1 into $10 if the ten-spot only buys .90 cents worth of the original dollars' value? It is a loss.

Commodities are not specific to any given currency. A barrel of oil trades in Euros, Yen, etc, as well as dollars. So, to "speculate" on the futures market is really a hedge against the dollar's continued fall. So when you hear that "speculation" is about to be regulated, you might think this is a good thing. Ha!

Future markets drive other investments, far beyond the day to day pricing of gas. If a group of people form a corporation, they look at the future to see where to position production to maximize their profits. Without any clear guide, smart money could wait-and-see what the market does before ramping up. If they bet wrong (conservatively)--shortages occur. That too drives up price. Regulating real-time future markets too much will lead to these shortages, but who really knows this stuff? Think about it...if you all of a sudden need to double production to meet a surge in demand, you missed the boat. Hiring, infrastructure, indeed, raw materials (commodities) all need to be planned in advance. The future market is one tool for these decisions.

Now, if smart money does what it can to become more smart money above all else, then is it the future trader's fault that they seek the commodity (inflation-adjustable) over the dollar-based stock market (inflation magnet)? Or is the Fed's and congresses' fault for failing to maintain a currency position against inflation?

In other words, inflation drives up the cost of oil. Inflation drives investors to seek oil as a hedge against inflation--this too drives up the price as more money chases a finite barrel. The devaluation of the dollar has a two fold impact on oil prices! But it is the same underlying cause. Adressing one aspect will do nothing except further destroy investment funds of baby boomers, teachers, and anyone else with a good 401K...by lopping off the one hedge against inflation. Go back to the point that ten dollars means nothing if it takes a tenspot to buy a dollars worth of anything:)

Now, the future market at a glance is a functioning pyramid scheme. The more money you put in it, the higher the return will be. Until someone stops putting in, and the last one in gets bit hard:)) So, like any good pyramid scheme, first in is great, second is good, third is OK, but last sux. Heheh. As such in casual terms, it is easy to demonize. It is what it is...curtailing it by legislation will make things far, far worse. The only real way to curtail it is to make it less attractive for investment--by making the dollar a dollar again.

It is the money policy of the fed, and of congress, that caused the oil bubble. If you did not know this, I can't find any fault with that. It is arcane stuff...

Now, trading futures with only 10% down is also asking for trouble. regulating that will cut down on speculation....and could be good in the long run. But, the instutional investment, the large funds, will take the hit the hardest.

Joe M
Friday, June 27, 2008, at 17:34:58 (ZULU)

OK, so I post. Ignore it if you want.....

Another way of looking at the dollar:

In 1961, gasoline cost $0.21 per gallon, and a well-aportioned car cost roughly $2,000.

But back in 1961, we had DOLLARS. For the benefit of those who don't understand my jargon, a Dollar is something based in precious metal*. In the case I'm referring to, we were already off the gold standard, but had a silver standard solidly in tact. Thus the Dollar was worth one Dollars worth of silver.

To make this example easier to understand, when I say "Dollar", I mean "1961 silver Dollar coin". Obviously in 1961, one could walk into any bank in the united States, hand the cashier a 10 Dollar bill, and get 10 silver Dollar coins. Those coins contained 10 Dollars worth of silver.

Between 1961 and now, no new products have been developed which require silver at any rate considered significant. Thus silver has the same "value" today as in 1961 - essentially none industrially, just as a precious metal.

Today gasoline costs roughly 4 Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs), and a well-aportioned car costs roughly 40,000 FRNs.

That's the SAME ratio - roughly - as 1961. Think about that. The relative price of gasoline, in relation to domestically produced automobiles, is the same as 1961.

That's OK, right? Going from the Dollar (based / backed in silver) to the FRN (backed in an IOU of debt to a foreign country) didn't change the relative price of anything, right?

Except for this: that 1961 silver Dollar is now worth roughly 20FRN - or 5 gallons of gasoline. So the same 1961 silver Dollar that bought 5 gallons of gasoline in 1961 will STILL buy 5 gallons of gasoline now.

The difference is that in 1961, it took one greenback to buy one Dollar - today it takes 20 greenbacks (FRNs) to buy one Dollar.

Therefore the value of the Dollar (backed in silver) hasn't changed with any kind of significancy since 1961 - the GREENBACKS have. The FRNs have devaluated to roughly 5% of what they were when we were on a silver standard.

One has to wonder why our currency has devaluated so much. The answer is extremely simple! Benjamin Franklin figured it out, but didn't do so in secret. He figured it out the same way the bankers in London did, and since the London bankers had the ear of the King.....

Franklin recorded that none of the Intolerable Acts would have made the Colonists rebel against England and the King. It was his opinion that these Acts would have been tolerated, if it hadn't been for the change of currency imposed on the Colonies.

So in the 1760's people understood what a Pound was, they understood "Colonial Script", and unemployment was at a rate Franklin recorded as "not worth mentioning" - specifically he wrote that there were no poor houses in the Colonies, and if any had been built there wouldn't have been anyone living in them. The people of 1760 also understood what a fiat currency was all about, and how the "freshly imposed" monitary system would rob them blind without lifting a finger.

But then again, my opinion of amirikan residents now isn't anything similar to the people about which Alexis deToqueville wrote what he did.

You've got two real options - especially since the Feds chose to raid and shut down companies making "coins" (had to call 'em "rounds" though, as making "coins" is illegal!) out of silver and gold. Why? Because if I started trading with others, using silver and gold coins, how would there be any stealing the value of my currency?

Choice #1 - buy something that retains its value. Be that durable goods, rare metal (but I recommend buying silver instead of gold), or 'household goods'.

Choice #2 - try to outstrip the inflation with your earnings. This can work in the short run, because a leach doesn't typically eat as much blood as the host can replentish. However, our leach has grown to the size of a good sized dog, and is eating so much we can't replentish on our own. By a longshot.

There is a Choice #3, but nobody will really care about it. Does anyone think that it's a coincidence this presidential cycle has seen the nature of our currency brought up in debate for the first time in about 70 years? Not to worry about it though - I'm sure either one of the leftists running in the major parties will help you devaluate your earned wealth rapidly. Maybe one day, people will stand up and say "ENOUGH".

Maybe, but probably not. While the population of amirika has grown tremendously, it seems that there are many less American Men on this continent now than ever.

*The chairman of the Fed, under Richard Nixon, answered foreign "dollar-holder" complaints when we went off the silver standard with the quote "it may be our dollar, but it's your problem".

Bravo
Friday, June 27, 2008, at 19:29:38 (ZULU)

Hey Ya'll,

Just a little rant on the scotus decision..

I read all this stuff and just shake my head... WHAT FRICKING PART OF "INALIENABLE RIGHT" do these shit heads not understand ? A 'right' is something that comes from nature and nature's God. No man can screw with it. It's not a 'law' it is an absolute right. It can't be taken away except by force or surrender. Any 'man in black' that says other wise is a tyrant pure and simple.... This is just an opinion of five men.. that's all.

Just what does " being necessary for a free state" mean if you can 'only have' certain tools ? How dare these thugs think they can define what's acceptable to have to defend one's life ?

Just remember that it's not a right if you have to ask permission to exercise it...

Maybe this will have the effect of the 'dred scott' decision but I doubt it.... All I can say is all men need to wake up and stand up like men !

Joe & Bravo,

Good read on the economic chaos to come.... might I suggest 'means of production' to add to your 'kit' ? After all the ability to take the fruits of one's mind and translate them real things is what separates us from the savages and the apes.... Oh and ya'll forgot scotch as a 'barter medium'.... remember them boys in the distillery need a job too.. < grin>

Stay alert, stay alive

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Friday, June 27, 2008, at 22:06:31 (ZULU)

Duman:

I reload for 2 3/4" 12ga buckshot and slug with a Lee Loadall II. There are better presses for shotgun, but if you choose to limit yourself to the above, the others are not a clear improvement.

With the price of bulk birdshot going to birdsh*t, the shotgun reloaders seem to be switching back to factory ammunition purchased in bulk. Buy it cheap, stack it deep :-) I made my first multi-case birdshot loading purchase this year, just gearing up for aerial shotgunning. If I don't like it I can very probably resell at a profit given the quickly increasing price.

I'm using Hornady 00 purchased over 2 years ago, Activ hulls and Activ wads purchased several years ago for my buckshot loadings. Obsolete WSL powder and W209 primers to round out the recipe.

Likely switch to Win AA hulls and Win WAA12F114 (yellow) when the Activ components are exhausted. Don't know about substitute powder selection yet.

For slugs I'm using Lyman sabot slugs from their mold produced by local caster friends (wheelweights), Fed GM hulls, Win WAA12F114 (yellow) wads, WSF powder and W209 primers.

In both cases I'm making a "reduced" (tactical) loading which recoils very similar to Federal's tactical offering. Much more pleasant than the 2 3/4 max loading.

What more detail do you want?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, June 27, 2008, at 22:58:09 (ZULU)

non-PC humor:

The SCOTUS justices who wrote the dissenting opinion on Heller are being called "The Short Bus Four" in some places. Given the basis upon which they claim their opinion is founded, sounds about right to me...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, June 27, 2008, at 23:38:36 (ZULU)

Rod,

That's great information, thanks. I'll do some shopping, and come back with more questions. :8-p

Duman
Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 00:12:59 (ZULU)

Duman:

To a first-order approximation, the cost of your lead payload is going to be a major element of the pricing for shotshells. So pricing the lead components to contrast the pricing of handload vs factory ammunition would be a good starting point. Since there are good factory loadings available today, you may be better-served to shop hard for a good volume ammunition deal rather than component discounts.

The economic and customization equation for shotshells is very different than for say long-range rifle ammunition. It's hard to significantly improve on a good factory shotshell loading.

I originally got into handloading buckshot because it was hard to get locally, and it snowballed from there. With the growth of 3-gun matches locally, suitable buckshot loading availability has significantly improved.

If I hadn't already accumulated significant stocks of shotshell components, I would have to look very carefully at the "handload vs buy" price equation. It's also medium time-intensive, which doesn't help any.

Probably the most annoying part of the 9x00 pellet loading is that it doesn't readily stack correctly, which creates a crummy crimp. The pellets can be convinced to deploy correctly in the shotcup, but it takes some shuffling with a stylus for each shotshell to be loaded. An 8x00 pellet loading seems to stack much more naturally, so I may switch to that for my handloads. At least one factory loading uses an 8x00 reduced loading, so it is not a bogus concept.

The sabot slug loading is pleasant to assemble, makes a nice fold crimp.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 02:39:45 (ZULU)

Duman,

I load birdshot for busting clay targets with my 12 gauge. I burn a light charge of Hodgdon's Clays behind 1 oz. of # 7 1/2 shot. I use a MEC 9000G loader and Remington STS hulls. I've lost track of how many times these hulls have been loaded. One guy I know quit counting at seventeen! Rod is absolutely right on pricing the lead. That stuff has gone crazy.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The muggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 03:50:10 (ZULU)

Shotshell reloading: For those of you who live around trap ranges, here's a thought. Around here, about every 5 years or so, the local scrap metal yard "mines" the impact zones. They have a specialized machine to do so, and the relaimed shot is clean...minimal distorted pellets, mostly no.7 1/2. Last time I bought some it was about .60 cents/pound...$15/bag...bunch cheaper that the $50/bag for commercial stuff. Works great for 3-gunning plates/poppers,etc.

Just for the chintzes out there, I worked up a load that was as cheap as I could and still function a recoil-operated 12-ga. (browning):

AA hull, AA white wads with a 20-ga fiber wad in the 12 ga. wad (gives about a 7/8 oz. load) and 12.5 gr. bullseye.

I too have a Lyman Sabot slug mould and when my supply of Brenneke "wears out", I'm going to start loading those...have a goodly supply cast up already. My Remington 1100 has a "paradox" choke...rifled...should be interesting to see if it does the saboted slug any good or not....and what effect there might be on the shot loads.

Buckshot is another story altogether. I did make some No.1 buck several years ago by casting using a 32 cal. roundball rifle mould. Took me all day to come up with a double handful...so dear that I have yet to load and fire any (and the "several years" was 20+). Unless you're real patient, making buckshot is a killer. I have a bag from my days as a firearms instructor, but I have yet to see a 3-gun match use buckshot on any of the stages...in fact they almost universally limit steel targets to No.4 or smaller shot due to the "bounceback" pleasures that lead can bestow on your body.

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 03:55:29 (ZULU)

re: shotshells

I can barely conceive of the excruciating level of effort it would take to cast any significant quantity of buckshot. Unless your time and health is of little value, casting buckshot is not a good choice. Buying it would definitely be a better choice if you have any alternative. (No aspersion intended for SteveinButte).

00 shot from PR:

http://www.precisionreloading.com/shot.htm#><font%20face=

HORNADY MAGNUM LEAD BUCKSHOT - #00 5 LB * $22.49

REMINGTON LEAD BUCKSHOT - #00 25 LB * $66.99

PR are nice people to deal with, it's too bad their payment policy changes and US Federal export regulations (ITAR) make it difficult for Canadian residents to transact with them today.

Because of my situation, I shot steel targets at the local 3-gun matches exclusively with buckshot. They are very gung-ho about ensuring adherence to minimum safe engagement distance margins (10+meters) for steel targets, so I wasn't too concerned. Haven't had any bounce-back issues yet. I think I'll try and use up some of my cheapie (Walmart-Federal) birdshot loadings at the upcoming 3-gun matches, since buckshot is really only compelling for long-range steel and some very specialized paper target usage.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 04:48:47 (ZULU)

Duman: Wally World sells (sold?) Fed, Rem and Win buckshot for about $2.50/5. Practice with birdshot. Loading shotshells is a hassle.

CDC'
Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 05:16:16 (ZULU)

Duman,

MagTech is fairly good stuff. I have run it in several 1911's and never had a problem with function or accuracy.

jc
Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 05:43:13 (ZULU)

For those havin some trouble locating loose buckshot,try thinking "black powder pistol".Alot of the old cap and ball revolvers really did use round ball,back then and even still today.

Hornady or Speer may still offer roundballs in 100 rd boxes.I know they used too,not sure if they still do or not.And they didnt have the sprue flat that ya get with casting your own.The g/f at the time used to shoot a .36cal Pocket Police,and if I remember right we used the .350 rb's in her's.I always wanted to save a few to have some buckshot shotgun loads made up.Never quite got there,tho.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi., USA - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 08:04:36 (ZULU)

Rifle reloading gear:

Postive recommendations on:

- Lee Auto Prime

- Lyman "Powder Pal" Funnel Pan (#7752433)

A must for electronic scales if you're weighing powder charges.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 17:31:17 (ZULU)

Joe,

"Demographics of US populations is never taken into account for its economic impacts, either good or bad."

.......unless they're crying for the poor, disenfranchised minorities that would rather drive an Escalade with spinners than put down money on a house.

Duman,

I've had good luck with Magtech brass, have heard good things about their primers, but not tried them.(The primers) Their handgun ammo is okay. Never hunted with it, but it all seems to go bang, and land where it's supposed to.

Calvin,

"WHAT FRICKING PART OF "INALIENABLE RIGHT" do these shit heads not understand ?"

Ditto! WTF? Maybe we should all send them dictionaries with the definitions highlighted. I, too, am pissed about the arrogance of that jackass saying "no semi-autos, right after his previous bullshit line had just been slapped out of his mouth". That fucker needs horsewhipped.

........."nothing says "Obey me" like a bloody head on a pike"!

Also, the .50 BMG, MP5, M-249, ET AL are "in common usage"...... I'll buy the lawyer that can overturn the '86 and earlier bans 72 whores! (Virgins don't know what the hell to do, and seem to be going extinct!)

Rod,

Whaddya think of the RCBS "mini-grand"? Also, does anyone make a nice, simple doohickey for making lead shot? I'll probably just use BB's when I can catch them on sale for hunting and targets, but need the lead shot for CAS.

Rod,

+1 on the digital scales. When weight checking ammo to make sure I didn't double charge any, it's agonising with a beam scale. Digital's the way to go. I'm planning to get one just as soon as I can get back to working and pay some bills. The new flat screen T.V.'s nice, but it don't help me load ammo faster!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 19:08:12 (ZULU)

Travis:

My experience with loading small shot shotgun loadings is limited, so I'm poorly positioned to make useful comment on the RCBS Mini-Grand shotshell press. I will say that the manufacturer name "MEC" is a commonly recurring theme among small shot shotgun shell reloaders. MEC has a whole family of products for any budget.

have a look at the Precision Reloading site, they are big into shotshell reloading equipment and supplies.

http://www.precisionreloading.com

June special:

Free Shipping on 100 LBS or More of Magnum Lead Shot,

With in the United States.

MAGNUM LEAD SHOT - #7-1/2 25 LB * $47.99

FIELD GRADE LEAD SHOT - BB 25 LB * $59.99

(I'll bet it is drop-shipped, nothing wrong with that).

My understanding is that the best production techniques for small shot makes the infrastructure/equipment impractical for individual operations. The term "shot tower" is a recurring theme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_tower

Rather than making your own small shot, use large purchases to drive down shipping costs (think transport truck pallet loads, not common carrier like UPS). Common strategy are buying pools/collectives of like-interested persons at shotguns clubs or similar. They pool their orders to drive down the shipping costs. Applicable to shipping shot, shotgun ammunition, powder and primers. All of those have relatively low value per unit of weight. In the case of powder and primers, they have per-shipment hazmat surcharges, so the larger the shipment, the smaller the impact of the hazmat surcharge on the overall unit cost.

That was the technique I used for my recent purchase of shotgun ammunition. I pooled with another shooter to buy 10 cases, which in turn were part of a local dealer's larger order shipped via transport truck from the distributor. I picked up from the local dealer.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 20:23:14 (ZULU)

*********CLICK MY NAME**********

Rent, Don't Buy, Your Home

What says Joe? (In 17 pages or less; I have ADHD!)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, June 28, 2008, at 21:11:39 (ZULU)

QOTD:

"For budding lawyers, “individual right” is now the correct answer on the Multi-State Bar Exam."

http://www.reason.com/news/show/127201.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, June 29, 2008, at 00:09:09 (ZULU)

Travis: People are easy to make...land --not so much.

There ya go; right to the point.

Undude: Cookies came back to me "return to sender" without so much as one Elvis impersonator. Can ya hit me offline with a good mailing addy?

Joe M
Sunday, June 29, 2008, at 02:54:22 (ZULU)

Travis,

Hey thanks for the heads up on the fly spray !

Many moons ago I had a shot maker...it worked with alot of fiddling and I killed more than a few critters with it's product.

Do a search for Littleton shot maker . Not cheap but at 60 + for 25 lbs

it doesn't take long to pay for itself...

Any one looking to cast buck shot try Dixie gun works for a gang mold or check with lee as they sometimes do 6 cavity gang molds...

PM me if ya want to hear about casting shot....

Stay safe

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Sunday, June 29, 2008, at 03:16:57 (ZULU)

Travis, to elborate on market equilibrium of land (my previous answer assumes you'll think about it AND associate Bravo's post to the question): An acre of land, declining in value in terms of FRNs, still produces the same number of bushels of grain that it did five years ago; but the grain has appreciated in terms of FRNs some 4 times over (grains--commodities--all are inflation indicators largely due to the fact that they trade in all currencies simultaneously). Inflation starts to show in raw materials first---but, like a bad cancer, it spreads throughout the whole eventually. Markets really do work to lower prices (computers, cell phones, lunch are a few examples you might have noticed)--so, the upward pressures are resisted strongly down stream from these raw materials. High prices mean less spending overall, so the retail end tries, for a time, to "adjust" expenses to keep prices stable. GM's 0%-72 month financing is one such method. In the long run, the pressure from the front loaded costs will work throughout the market--retail will lose this fight unless the FRN turns around hard and fast.

No appreciable amount of new land can be created by man, and volcanism produces rock---time makes soils, and time is in eons, not decades or centuries:)) So, it is finite. Some land is better than other land, but that is not the point: Land is still land, while the dollar itself is having a bit of an identity crisis. How can a product related directly to land appreciate, while the land that produces it depreciates? Heheh, that answer is indeed 17 pages, for a complete understanding, but it is best that you figure it out for yourself, in your own terms.

So, are you chasing fiat monies or real property? If it is green paper that you want, and lots of them, then by all means rent away. You can use wagon loads of printed paper to try to get a loaf of bread...But even when the paper loses value, the land will still feed your family:))

Back to Bravo's point: Your FRNs have been judged to be ~0.33 cents today as compared to the year 2000. That is what the market is telling me with gold prices. OTOH, corn says it is more like 0.25 cents!

Enslavement? Since an FRN is no specified amount of anything tangible--it tends to be valued, in given amounts, to YOUR labors and productivity by overseas markets. And yeah, by you too. Will you do what I want you to do for 40 hours/ a week or more for say 10FRN/ hour? How about 13.50? Maybe 17.05? See, you are setting a value to the FRN (your personal value) based soley on your willingness to give away your time and effort in exchange...so what is an FRN other than this basic rate of pay per a day's labor? Now, you also abstractly equate this with how many minute's of time you work for a loaf of bread, a new fridge, a few kw/hrs of electricty or a gallon of gas. But the FRN doesn't give a damn what you think your time is worth in terms of anything but FRNs:)) What happens next in these situations is what I am talking about in these many posts over the last year...so, what is a FRN worth besides your ass doing someone' elses bidding?

An acre of land? No....it fluctuates willy-nilly there! Gold? Nope; same thing as land! Will you show up for work tomorrow? There is the value, then. At least for now...when you end up working all day for one loaf of bread, that will likely have changed radically.

Why would you equate land with FRNs alone? Who cares if it was worth a zillion yesterday, and only a million today...that is not why I have land. FRN-based land decisions is just another form of speculation in a commodity market. But doing something useful with land is an entirely different way to look at it. City folk tend to not look at property as anything beyond shelter and/ or the investment potential. How many shelters per acre? How many bushels? That is where the value lay...there ya go: the lay of the land. Bawhawhaw...

I still liked my original answer better...

Joe M
Sunday, June 29, 2008, at 20:10:56 (ZULU)

re: real estate Country

The article that Travis referenced seemed to be talking more about paying for residental floor space, not dirt-type real-estate.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, June 29, 2008, at 22:44:28 (ZULU)

Rod,

> - Lyman "Powder Pal" Funnel Pan (#7752433)

A must for electronic scales if you're weighing powder charges. <

Absolutely. Best thing since sliced bread, canned beer, and padded bras. ;-))

jc
U.S.A. - Sunday, June 29, 2008, at 23:06:46 (ZULU)

JC:

The best ideas seem to generate the reaction - "great idea, I wonder why someone didn't come up with it earlier". It was so obvious (in retrospect :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, June 29, 2008, at 23:38:20 (ZULU)

Interesting read !

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, Usa - Monday, June 30, 2008, at 01:08:01 (ZULU)

Here's a little info concerning the "Powder Pal" funnel pan.

If you're going to use one with an RCBS Chargemaster Electronic scale with the auto-dispense feature you'll need to add some weight to the pan. A washer about the size of a quarter works well. If there's not enough weight resting on the platen the auto-dispense feature will not work. Almost never got that figured out.

jc
U,S,A, - Monday, June 30, 2008, at 05:50:29 (ZULU)

Rod: The article focused on shelter, but real property in general trends same-same regardless. Farmland here is in a slight decline in price, just as homes in 'Diego are. My point is, in either case the demand is for a basic necessity (shelter or food) represented by real property--argued instead in terms of current FRN exchange rates. IMHO, it is at a near a good time to buy:))

Importantly, I do not consider condo ownership to be worth a damn for anything except rental income:)) Single family dwellings, on a piece of dirt to call your own is all that should be considered...chances are, ya gotta live somewhere...

Right now, various governments (Saudi, Kuwait, S. Korea, China etc) are looking at leases in S. Africa, Australia, etc for farmland and contracted production. A minor transaction in the grand scheme of things---but a clear indicator that populations are stripping available land food production capacity in traditional trade patterns completely. This is also seen in prices for rice. But, as I said, we can make more people easily---making new land to feed them is the problem.

There is only so much of it. Having a piece is always better than not---regardless of what the dollar is in relation.

The article was only stating a position that is currently fashionable, without much analysis for the next day. My point is that ownership beats renting in more ways than mere dollar growth. That very fall of the FRN could spark the next market run up, as foriegners buy up our dirt and bid it up in Kuwaiti Dinars...and since there is a growing trend to secure farm operations, SoDak may just be the place it all starts.

Joe M
Monday, June 30, 2008, at 06:00:22 (ZULU)

Home ownership is not necessarily the best financial strategy. The government and media along with the Realtor groups have done a great job over the last 20 years promoting home ownership as some sort of talisman representing how American you are or some such crap.

Some years back, I came across a financial article explaining how renting is sometimes better than buying. It appears to me, that if you buy a home and sell within 5 years, you're gonna lose money unless you buy on the upslope of some market stupidity. On top of that, you don't really own it anyway.....the government can take it any time to give to someone else if they will increase tax revenue, or if you don't pay your taxes. If you will it to your family upon your death, I do believe they will pay an inheritance tax, which is why every home I've personally seen willed to a relative was sold to settle the estate rather than kept in the family. On top of THAT, your financial future is entirely tied to the whims of your local government assessor, who may or may not have honest principle in mind when he decides how much your property is worth for the new tax year.

I live an hour from both of WI biggest cities. I'm not posting this to toot my horn as much as I am to illustrate that some of this stuff is definitely not rocket science, especially if a mope like me can see it so easily. I wonder why it seems like it took so many people by suprise.

Local housing prices got to be insane due to the massive influx of people (roughly 30% growth over 10 years) who moved here from the city (where the decent paying jobs are) and were willing to pay waaaaaaay too much for a small town, semi rural, or country home. When I bought my little farm in 2001, it was listed for 40k too much, and I paid 30k too much, simply because the realtor told the sellers not to move any more, and it was a very rare, once in 20+ year opportunity to get a place that was right down the road from my then wife's parents farm. Rock and a Hard Place. I ranted about how disconnected prices were from reality, and predicted that if fuel prices rose, the market would crash when fuel prices become an issue and all these two commuter families with more money and dreams than financial sense could no longer afford to get to the city for those better paying jobs. I imagine the same things were happening all over with the gravy years of a decent and expanding economy. As usual, us normal citizens were our own worst enemy, being stupid and being waaaaay too willing to pay too much.

When wife v 1.0 left, and I couldn't make the mortgage myself, I had to decide if I was going to file bankruptcy and come up with a debt plan to try and keep it, or let them foreclose (they waived the rights to a judgment to shorten the right of redemption from 12 to 6 mos.), fix my credit, and come back again for something better when the market adjusts. I knew I paid too much and was on the hook for more than the place was worth, and still thought the market had to crash, so while I was on the phone trying to work something out with the bank up until an hour before the sheriff's sale, I didn't file the bankruptcy. If the bank would have been willing to work with me, I was fully prepared to do whatever it took to stop the foreclosure and come up with a plan to catch up. As an aside, stay away from WAMU, they pay lip service to the law but will jack you around between reps and with paperwork to buy time while they push the foreclosure through to collect the mortgage insurance.

Anyway, now I'm paying pretty cheap rent, I have some money saved up (looking for a good investment for it right now) and am planning out how I'll be in the right position when the market adjustment bottoms out.

Eventually, I want another place in the country on a quiet road, but with more acres and for less money....cheap enough that it makes sense. In the meantime, I think I'll stick to cheap rents for awhile yet.

Here's a cool calculator I found online, haven't analysed it closely, it's just what came up on a google search:

http://www.cepr.net/calculators/hb/hcc.html

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, June 30, 2008, at 06:33:15 (ZULU)

Real Estate country:

One of the Canadian news stories currently extant:

Large urban centre owners of country cottages are talking about selling because of the increasing cost of fuel to visit on the weekends.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080627/gas_prices_080627/20080627/

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, June 30, 2008, at 13:27:52 (ZULU)

Kelo v. New London: Ms. Kelo, who lost her home with the SCOTUS ruling that expanded takings from "public use" to "public purpose"--may find it ironic that her former lot is still vacant. The developer ran outta money, financing, and motivation during this downturn.

The city of New London used to get property taxes from that parcel...now, not so much:)) Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of asshats!!!

Joe M
Monday, June 30, 2008, at 14:29:00 (ZULU)

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