Sniper Country Duty Roster

Rod: During this night's joyous insomnia session, I scrolled down and found your question. I wasn't ignoring it. I'll have a closer look at this thread when - if ever - I'm coherent.

CDC'
Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 11:37:14 (ZULU)

Hey Ya'll,

At the risk of making this place 'politics country'... here's another little different take on the scotus case being an individual 'right'.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin79.htm

Stay safe

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 16:28:35 (ZULU)

Lindy...

The issue of chamber (barrel) temperature having an effect on velocity is a theoretical one because of the following. It takes several minutes to raise the temperature of the powder inside of the case. This is due to the fact that, first, powder is a piss-poor conductor of heat, and second, the case does not actually touch the chamber all over - contact with the chamber walls is at the bottom (6:00 o'clock) position.

But consider the practical matters... someone that heats up a barrel is shooting fast - like at match, a PD shoot, or in combat.

Putting combat aside. If they are shooting fast, then the cases aren't in the chamber long enough to get hot :((

In the link, the comparison was between 45 and 95 degrees - that's a large spread, for either a shooter at a match or a dog shoot.

So I think, while it is "interesting", it's application is limited.

At most all shooting endeavors that require long range accuracy AND rapid fire, it will be the ambient temperature of the cartridge that will rule the situation.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 17:28:28 (ZULU)

re: chambers heating rifle cartridges in bolt guns

I've seen it mentioned that during a forced pause at a match that it's worth extracting and putting aside a chambered round to avoid it heating up any differently that it's siblings. Makes sense to me - keeping all variables as close as possible is a "good thing" ;-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 5, 2008, at 00:23:06 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Just received this from The Nat'l Shooting Sports Foundation:

N.Y. STATE SENATOR'S POLL ON MICROSTAMPING . . . New York State Sen. Dale Volker's Web site is hosting a poll concerning firearms microstamping, legislation that would require manufacturers to micro laser engrave, in two separate locations, the gun's make, model and serial number so, in theory, that information would be imprinted on any cartridge casing expelled from the firearm. NSSF is encouraging Bullet Points readers to visit the Web site and voice their opposition to microstamping legislation by voting "NO." Learn more about the dangers of firearms microstamping legislation at:

http://nssf.org/media/FactSheets/Microstamping.cfm

If I did it right you can click on my name or else go here:

http://www.senatorvolker.com/59/default.aspx

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, May 5, 2008, at 23:01:32 (ZULU)

Mr. Lito,

Do you or have you had any contact with the Chris Thomas at Premier? With your relationship with them in the past I did'nt know if you would have any info or insight into their new scope production? I'm sure it will be more than capable!

Travis,

Your comment on young girls and their "worldly attire" is noted, but just to give you some hope there are still a remnent of godly Apostolic young ladies who hold holiness to a high standard.

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 02:39:26 (ZULU)

Scott,

I'm afraid you might have mistaken me. Lookin' good ain't a sin. I was once engaged to a Mormon girl who was SMOKING HOT, but wouldn't wear anything but scrubs and sweats outside the house because her culture insisted that she was insiting men toward sinful thoughts if she looked good. Her God given beauty was nothing to be embarassed of. That was bullshit.

I hate to see women completely covered year round. It just bugs the shit out of me when folks encourage their daughters to grow up too fast.

We all tell our kids to drive in a safe and sane manner. If you allow them to "dress" their car with a pair of 650 CFM Holleys, Hooker headers, a nitrous setup and slicks, you kinda have to expect them to start racing before they're ready. If you allow your little girl to dress like a 23 year old who's lookin' for a man, don't be surprised if she's lookin' for a man.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 11:35:10 (ZULU)

Reuters:

Al Qaeda behind attack on Karzai, spy chief says

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USISL13319720080504

Sun May 4, 2008 12:44pm EDT

By Sayed Salahuddin

KABUL (Reuters) - Al Qaeda in Pakistan was behind last week's assassination attempt on Afghan President Hamid Karzai, Afghanistan's intelligence chief said on Sunday.

The head of Afghanistan's National Directorate of Security, Amrullah Saleh, said foreign governments should put pressure on Pakistan to destroy militant bases within its borders.

Taliban gunmen fired rocket-propelled grenades and small arms at a state parade last Sunday, sending Karzai, his cabinet and military top brass as well as foreign diplomats diving for cover.

Three people were shot dead before Afghan troops killed three Taliban attackers.

Investigations by Afghan security forces showed that at least two officials from the defense and interior ministries were involved in the attack, Saleh said. The officials suspected of involvement have been arrested in recent days.

But he added they had links with al Qaeda in Miramshah, Pakistan's tribal region near the border with Afghanistan, and branded the network the mastermind of the attack, the most brazen by the Taliban since their ouster in 2001.

"Al Qaeda's role and involvement in the attack is very clear," Saleh told a news conference.

"They have bases (in Pakistan). They are supplied financially and logistically. They receive very sophisticated training ... We have always said that pressure on their bases, combined with our intelligence can destroy them," he added.

He said with regret there was "little and sometimes no pressure" on the militants training bases, indirectly referring to Pakistan.

While the Taliban have carried out sporadic suicide bombings in Kabul before, last week's attack, together with a guerrilla-style assault on a five-star hotel in the capital in January, indicate a more sophisticated mode of attack.

The Taliban have vowed to target Kabul this year as part of their campaign to overthrow Karzai's government and drive out the more than 55,000 foreign troops stationed in the country.

Pakistan itself which has seen attacks by militants over the past year says it does all it can to crush al Qaeda and other militants who fled there after the U.S.-led invasion that toppled Taliban's government in Afghanistan in 2001.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 16:37:00 (ZULU)

Doc: Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "micro-stamping" a raised area on the breach that, theoretically, imprints data on the fired case? If so, and if widely known, what would prevent a bad guy from filing off the offending protusion? And outta curiosity, how many guns are in existance right this minute--without microstamps?

I probably outta click your link and learn more. I hear this debate on the periphery, assume facts not in evidence, and form my opinion without any more efforts. Opinion: Another hare-brained idea from the folks who brought us the miracle investment opportunity known as social security. Yihaa.

The economy is steadying up; but the underlying problems still exist. For now, holders of US debt have decided that action to shore up the greenback is smarter than an all out dumping. But the facts remain that debt is out there in mountains; we are writing more bad checks as we move forward, and the old 1-yr treasury is back in an attempt to sell our red ink (longer term bonds sat on the shelf, ignored by the market). In other words, our efforts thus far are solely delaying actions--and the delay is down to 12 months at a time:))

There is another theory: If we are in debt to the world for a large fraction of GDP, they own us. If we are in debt for a sizeable chunk of the entire market value of world trade, we kinda own them. That's a twist on a (almost) famous quote...

Joe M
Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 19:32:31 (ZULU)

Joe M...

>"Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "micro-stamping" a raised area on the breach that, theoretically, imprints data on the fired case? If so, and if widely known, what would prevent a bad guy from filing off the offending protrusion?"<

Yup...

The only two places where mocrostamping would work in on the bolt face and the chamber walls. Either place is easy to polish with #800 carbide paper and some oil - mirror smooth in 5 minutes.

I have polished the bolt face on several on my rifles, because the tool marks made it hard to read primer signs... you can comb your hair in the fired primers.

Most states are looking at micro stamping bullets instead of guns, because it is so easy to file off the micro stuff.

>"And outta curiosity, how many guns are in existance right this minute--without microstamps? "<

About 600,000,000 firearms...

They would NEVER be able to keep up with the paperwork - to list the owners of bullets, by their serial numbers for 4 to 5 BILLION bullets a year... and then there are those pesky handloaders, and you can't make them do diddley squat!

And the bullet casters, there are a bunch of bums if I ever saw them - they will sit there all night putting 12 digit (X00,000,000,000) micro numbers on their bullets - sure they will...

... Hmmm and the list gets longer and longer.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 23:21:09 (ZULU)

Leetle Pablo: When have you seen a gun bill fail simply because it's stupid?

CDC'
Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 00:24:27 (ZULU)

CDC....In legislation? Not many. In practice, most of them.

As far as wimmen being covered up year 'round, hey, welcome to Afghanistan. Buncha little, blue toadstools running around. Little drogue-chutes running around with shoes under them. Funny as hell.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 02:47:56 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

As 'lito so aptly put it "yup". Another way is to engrave the info on the point of the firing pin so it is transferred to the primer when the round is fired. This can also be removed by polishing. The liberal loonies sure come up with some "great" ideas.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 03:28:19 (ZULU)

The antis need to send delegates to any junior high shop class in the country, just so they can see how a bunch of 13-14 year olds can defeat their measures in under 15 minutes, including 5 minutes thinking about titties.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 06:11:54 (ZULU)

5 minutes? Please. You've forgotten what it's like to be 13. They'll think about tatas the entire 15 minutes, while polishing the pin.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 08:42:39 (ZULU)

Titties,Titties ?? Where ??

UnPat

UnPat
Wi., USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 08:59:56 (ZULU)

Titties???

No matter what the subject, when all is said and done, we get back to what's important!

In the last few months, a bill for ammo identification has popped up in a dozen states all over the country (at the same time)...

... I figured that it was "Sarah & Friends Co." at work, cuz the wording of the bills was the same.

But it turns out that a company named "Ammunition Accountably" has just gotten the patents for ID'ing bullets, cases, and yo' momma!.. and I guess they think they can make a killing with royalties on each bullet so numbered, and each firearm so numbered.

God, the world's filled with whores...

... without titties (see I told you it always gets back to "you know what" :)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 14:05:04 (ZULU)

Yet another idiot who is "the ONLY man in the room qualified to operate a Glock .40."

Click. What a dumbshit. You might wanna show this and the video of the guy in dreadlocks to the next idiot that tells you about how cops know all about guns.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 23:56:35 (ZULU)

I've got a new Savage FP-10 Chote in .308 with a 26 inch bbl. I was wondering if anyone has used the David Tubb's loaded Final Finish ammunition to break in a new bbl? If so what do you think about the results? Also would it be ok to use surplus FMJ ammo to break the barrel in instead of the Federal 168 gr. match ammo that I am going to use in this rifle ( same ammo that I use in my FAL and it shoots great)?

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 00:47:17 (ZULU)

You are going to get some different opinions regarding the Tubb's product. The consensus is that for some barrels it may make a difference, but any abrasive product removes metal and that's not a good thing. Like anything in life, it's a compromise. You may get a smoother finish in the tube, but you will remove material and you can't put it back in! There is no gaurantee it will reduce your groups. If it DOESN'T make your groups smaller, you removed material for nothing.

The vast majority of Savages have excellent barrels, some of the best available on a factory rifle. It shouldn't need to be firelapped to have a good finish.

I tried JBs bore paste on my used 110FP not long after I picked it up and got some loads dialed in. My groups opened up to over an inch until I got +/- 100 rounds down the tube and then the groups settled back in, with no overall improvement.

Every rifle is a little different, but I think the bottom line is that you should go minimal.....break it in right and test it. If it doesn't shoot well then start looking at options to tweak it.

As far as break in, plain old ball ammo will work just fine. With a proper break in, your Savage should have excellent accuracy.

My opinion only, YMMV, etc. Good luck!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 02:12:10 (ZULU)

Click if you're veteran, or know one who wants to own their own business. I might just have to start ordering from Little Ceasar's.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 02:59:13 (ZULU)

Police Chief Dave Hansen is a total lug nut. He's not worthy of being called a tool. Just a lug nut. Sheesh!

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 05:06:11 (ZULU)

Danial...

Don't waste your time with "breaking in a barrel", you cannot "break in" hard steel with soft copper.

... and never shoot a bullet coated with grinding compound down your barrel. That should be obvious, no matter what the sales hustlers say.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 17:40:35 (ZULU)

I am generally "for" the goals of the patriot act that allow basic intel ops against enemies we are engaged in armed conflict with. Ultra, Jap codes comes to mind---and stateless enemies need the same directed efforts. Common sense, right? But this particular provision of the patriot act is troubling. Click.

I've been in the financial pages too much--I should really read actual legislation from time to time:))

(hey--time is not one of my problems)

Joe M
Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 17:41:58 (ZULU)

"New Speak" is here. George Orwell, where are you now that we REALLY NEED YOU???

From a US Optics add...

>"A large EREK knob (Erector Repositioning Elevation Knob) that is low profile and has a large diameter makes elevation adjustments quick and easy,"<

OK, I give up!! Bartender, I'll take two DDR&LJs please ;)

Even the old man, "Doctor" JW is turning over in his grave :((((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 20:02:18 (ZULU)

Thank all of you that responded to my questions about Tubb's Final Finish. I've decided to shoot the barrel in the old way (shoot and clean, shoot and clean...) and see what kind of results this produces. Thanks again, Daniel M. Hallman

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United states - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 21:27:10 (ZULU)

Click. I can't fucking believe this.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 22:42:24 (ZULU)

OK, I've been checking out the archived forums on breaking in a new barrel and the most current info is from 1999. I use a bore guide and a one piece carbon fiber rod with a swivel handle so pulling brushes and swabs back thru allow them to follow the rifleing in the correct direction. The solvents I normally use are Hoppes Bench Rest, Shooters Choice, Sweets 7.62 and JB's Shooters paste. I always dry patch until dry between solvents and follow up after the JB's with a final run of the Hoppes B.R. and finish off by dry patching till the patches come out clean. If the rifle isn't going to be shot soon I'll run a couple of patches with gun oil thru the bore but I always dry patch this out and check the chamber for residue before shooting. Now for the questions, do I need to use a chamber brush like the Chamber Maid since I'm using a bore guide while cleaning (this is pertaining to a bolt action)? Also since a lot of time has passed since 1999 has anyone came up with better solvents and procedures for shooting in a new barrel? I've got a new Savage FP-10 Choat in .308 that needs to be broken in and even though it's not a "high end" rifle I'd really like to break it in properly. Appreciate any info on this, it's getting close to good shooting weather here in Central West Texas ( this means that the wind is only going to be 20 to 30 mph,God I miss East Texas where the trees cut out most of the wind!!) Daniel M. Hallman

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 23:19:49 (ZULU)

Daniel:

Be careful when using different metal solvents. Drying the bore between is good, but you might still have residues that could interact.

A bore guide keeps most of the contamination out of the chamber, but cleaning the chamber some after finishing with the bore guide is a good idea. In .308 Win I use .50 cal nylon brushes to help with cleaning the chamber. Price is right, you can get 12 packs from Brownells and other sources.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 02:30:56 (ZULU)

Daniel...

Your questions are really more suited to "http://www.benchrest.com/". They love questions like these - they will give you 41 pages of opinions on how to clean your riffle and no two will be the same!!

You are being absolutely anal about a fairly simple chore - about as complicated as doing the dishes.

I can't believe that you are using FOUR cleaners.

Bartender, I need another DDR&LJ!!

Daniel - it's a SAVAGE... not some $6,500 1,000yd benchrest rifle. Get it into perspective.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 02:50:37 (ZULU)

When I buy a new rifle, I usually fire the first five or so rounds, then run a hoppes patch followed by a dry patch... I then continue my shooting for the day with that rifle. Break in is then complete <g>

When I get home, I run several patches of hoppes, then one with isopropyl alcohol, then a dry patch. I use an old bore brush to run the patches... pulling them with a coated rod from breach to muzzle. The last patch out is still showing some carbon...I just don't spend enough time cleaning to get the patches coming out clean.

Every ten or so trips to the range... I'll plug the barrel and let some hoppes soak for a couple hours. I then clean normally.

It seams to work for me and leaves me lots of time to obsess on other things. Learned it all on the roster...smart fellers those guys.

medicjim
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 03:23:06 (ZULU)

Last night I posted the following notes, fourty years in the making. They were written and posted about a year ago. Since they are unedited and rough, I took the post down. My idea was to clean them up, post them again then ask Ranger Rick, Mike Miller and anyone else with constructive input to review and improve them.

If anybody has any comments on those two long shooting posts, please post them. You guys know a lot about this stuff.

I'm not lecturing anyone here. Very little of this is mine. Most was picked up from books, trainers, magazines and here. Rick would recognize his words in some of it.

Most of this sounds categorical and absolute. It isn't. It is written this way for brevity. Disagreement or comment is welcome.

I got a couple of e-mails requesting that the notes be posted ASAP. I'm cleaning them up a little at a time.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When in shooting position I follow this checklist:

Uniform pressure at every point the rifle contacts the shooter or supports such as the ground or sandbags.

Zero cant.

Natural point of aim coincident with desired point of impact.

Crosshairs oscillating between 6:00 and 12:00, with 6:00 being point of aim.

Mentally isolate crosshair/POA picture and pad of right index fingertip. Feel the fingertip on the trigger. You are conscious of only your crosshair/POA picture and your fingertip on the trigger.

Release as much air as wants to go.

Desired sight picture causes SECOND JOINT in right index finger to HINGE gently but decisively to push the button STRAIGHT BACK.

Consciously see the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin.

Forward tension on the bipod. My half-baked theory is that a lot of long range horizontal dispersion blamed on missed wind calls aren't due to missed wind calls at all. The problem is rifle cant.

"Uniform pressure at every point the rifle contacts the shooter or supports such as the ground or sandbags."

Your body should be directly behind the rifle. Butt of rifle pulled into shoulder by large muscles in back. Don't pull hard enough to introduce any muscular strain. It's important to use the large back muscles because the harder a muscle works, the more it induces oscillation. Oscillation=wobble. Large muscles strain less than small muscles. The rifle is not gripped by the right hand. The three fingers not pulling the trigger are curled but do not grip the rifle. If you grip, those three fingers move sympathetically as the trigger is pressed. Also, if you grip the rifle, the small muscles in the forearm strain. Muscular strain introduces oscillation.

I'm familiar with two cases for the use of the left hand in the bipod prone position. One is the "beanie baby prone" as shown to me by Mike Miller. The other is the shooting glove technique described on this board by Ranger Rick. Rick's instructions would be worth looking up if anybody is actually reading this and is interested.

The right (duh) cheek is placed on the comb at the exact same place every time. The muscles in the back of the neck are relaxed to allow the weight of the shooter's head to completely rest on the rifle. This does three (maybe) important things; It increases the effective weight of the rifle thus reduces recoil A LOT, it keeps the rifle from getting a running start before it whacks you in the face and it makes the effective weight of the rifle more uniform.

The last two points are worth considering. You don't want the rifle to whack you in the face. If it does, your body will involuntarily learn to anticipate the shot. Anticipation interferes with the fundamentally important later step of "seeing the crosshairs on the target through the fall of the firing pin". The Rooskies did a lot of research in this area.

You want a uniform effective rifle weight (did I just make that up?) because the boolet leaves the riffle while the riffle is in recoil. Different riffle weight=different point in recoil arc at which boolet leaves the barrel = vertical stringing.

The above list included, "Natural point of aim coincident with desired point of impact."

It is important that the shooter not use his right hand to cheat the crosshairs onto the point of aim. One reason is that hand tension introduces oscillation. Another very important reason is that, between the time the sear breaks and the time the bullet leaves the barrel, the recoil moves the barrel toward the natural point of aim. If your natural point of aim and your actual point of aim are the same, no error is introduced.

The shooter checks NPA is by closing his eyes, relaxing his body then opening his eyes. If the crosshairs are still on the desired point of aim, IF THE RIFLE ISN'T CANTED, and if the shooter has done his dry-firing homework, the NPA should be good. The part dry-firing plays will be addressed later.

The next step is, "Crosshairs oscillating between 6:00 and 12:00, with 6:00 being point of aim."

As you breathe, the crosshairs oscillate between 6:00 and 12:00. When your breathing pauses, the oscillations slow dramatically for a couple of seconds until most of the remaining oscillations are caused by the beating of your heart. The crosshairs still move between 6:00 and 12:00 but they move much less and they move very regularly for, oh, 6 to 12 seconds more or less. At very near 6:00 the crosshairs pause. That's where you want your point of aim. After that interval, the tension in your muscles and the body's desire to breathe cause an increase in the amplitude of the oscillations.

So there's your NPA and the interval within which you should press your trigger.

"Mentally isolate crosshair/point of aim (POA) picture and pad of right index fingertip. Feel the fingertip on the trigger."

You see/visualize the exact sight picture that presses the trigger. Feel the right finger tip very lightly touching the trigger.

"Release as much air as wants to go."

Nothing to add.

"Desired sight picture causes second joint in right index finger..."

Repeat; The sight picture presses the trigger. While dry firing, snap every snap like your life depends on it (Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect.) you develop a neural pathway between the correct sight picture and the finger tip. You develop a conditioned response to the right sight picture. When you see what you want to see, your finger moves automatically. Use the conditioned response. For the important shots the temptation is to make a conscious effort. Conscious effort inhibits conditioned response. That is called "choking". If your dry firing was done correctly, you can trust your "Sight picture presses trigger" reflex. If your dry firing was sloppy, you have multiple ways to screw up.

"... to HINGE gently but decisively to push the button STRAIGHT BACK."

As mentioned earlier, the three fingers on the right hand that let the shoulder muscles pull the rifle gently into the shoulder are curled but don't grip. When pressing the trigger, the trigger finger bends ONLY at the second knuckle from the tip. If you hold your right hand in the described position and simulate pressing the trigger you will see that the pad of the fingertip comes back with less lateral motion than if you curl the trigger finger.

"Connsciously see the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin."

The interval between pressing the trigger and the fall of the firing pin is vital and is part of your eye/trigger/follow through conditioned response. While dry firing, practice seeing the correct sight picture through the fall of the firing pin. If the crosshairs move, either your NPA or your trigger press was wrong.

Flinching will screw this up.

We'll define a flinch as any reaction to or anticipation of the trigger press that interferes with the shooter seeing the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin. A flinch is a conditioned response that develops from an unconditioned reflex.

"Press->bang->blink and tighten up

becomes "press->blink and tighten up."

You remember Pavlov's dog. Same deal.

To decondition yourself, you dryfire like your life depends on every shot then shoot a bunch with a wimpy rifle that feels like your real rifle.

"Freezing on the trigger" is a similar problem. That condition is caused by fear of a bad shot. We all know the feeling of putting nine straight in the same hole then freezing on the tenth shot because we don't want to screw up the string. We are making a conscious effort to get the last shot right. But conscious effort inhibits conditioned response. If, during dry firing, we have programmed in the firing sequence we like, we should let it work. The rational brain wants to take over. Fighting the rational brain only makes it worse. Just ignore it. Go into the silence. Be interested in seeing and feeling what you need to see and feel during the firing sequence and let it happen like you have programmed it to happen.

Ommmm....

As you go to sleep, visualize every step in the sequence. If you have trouble visualizing a step, you haven't mastered it.

CDC'
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 04:13:18 (ZULU)

CDC': Thanks for posting that. Much appreciated.

Travis: Duuuuude..... I surf the web... but nowhere NEAR what (or WHERE) you do..

Duman
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 04:54:41 (ZULU)

Lito- The EREK knob works great regardless of how the marketing folks describe it. I've played with a few and I liked them. There were other things I didn't like, but the knob itself was great.

Daniel- Breaking in the barrel is critical for the accuracy potential and lifespan of the barrel. Don't listen to Lito he just talks alot but doesn't know much and we let him hang out here 'cuz he's a nice enough old guy. Here is a video from a registered professional that goes into great detail showing the correct procedure. Pay close attention and listen carefully:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRahHX9Zkg

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 06:16:35 (ZULU)

LOOONG POST - If you have to go to Church on Sunday, don't start reading this on Friday :)

I got out shootin' on Tuesday for the first time this year - weather has been shitty - winter until two weeks ago, and now everything is in bloom, the trees are all full of flowers, and the range was beautiful...

The range is under another "attack" by a homeowner that wants to raise his property values by getting the range closed.

So the asshole puts a hole in the garage, and then puts a 50 cal bullet on the floor and calls the state police to report a stray shot from the range.

Never mind the minor point that the hole is cleanly drilled with a 1/2" drill from Home Depot, and never mind the minor point that the bullet was from mail order or a souvenir shop and had no rifling marks on it and the point is not damaged, and never mind the minor point that there is a small mountain as a backstop and if the bullet was shot high enough to clear the mountain, it would have sailed over his house about 3,000 feet high and landed 4 miles away...

... the fuckin' asshole drills the hole on the wrong side of the house.

Our range is west of his house, but he drills the hole on the south side - why?? - well, because that's the side where his garage is, and he doesn't want to drill into the GOOD side of the house, you dummies!!

... Duh. If this was an I/Q test... he hit 12!!

:))))

So the range is "O-fish-ully" closed today, while all the state police have a forensics investigation, take color pictures, make angular measurements, GPS measurements, take more color pictures (and maybe some Black & white pictures), take plaster casts of all foot prints found in the woods in the 1.3 miles to the "victims" house, and then turn all the "evidence" over to the military to see if the bullet could have come from the riffle range (without rifling on it!!)

Anyway, I went to the range on Tuesday, and dragged along seven sticks - so now I have more fresh meat for "par deux" of the barrel cleaning experiment.

But I made some observations that are worthy of mention...

I have this 6mmBR that I mentioned a few years ago. It is the craziest rifle I have - Remington gets $3,800 for them, made up special order.

Some years back, I saw a note posted on the bulletin board at my range for a Rem "6mm Rem 40X" for sale for $900. It seemed high for a 50+ year old rifle, which is probably why no one had answered the add - it had been up for two weeks.

I thought it was an old "40X" from the 50's, and not the 40-XB", so I thought I might talk the guy down and get it for the action.

I went to the guys house, and he's a real arrogant snot ball yuppy, with more money than brains...

... and he brings it out (in the box) and it is a brand new, never even had a scope mounted on it, 40-XBBR Remington Benchrest rifle from the custom shop, with a 2 oz trigger!!

And it's not 6mm Rem - it's 6mmBR!!! And he has two boxes of factory ammo(??).

He says that he special ordered it through his "buddy" that has an FFL, and he can't get the bullets to go into it. He says that he called Remington, and after a lot of screaming at them over the phone, they told him that the gun was too advanced for his level of skills (it was a tight neck, .266" chamber, and the ammo was a full .272" neck case).

So he took it to his friend, and the friend couldn't take it back cuz he wasn't a real gun shop, and he had special ordered it.

So this guy just wanted out of the gun.

Well, I whined and cried about the bad barrel and how I would have to get a new barrel for it "cuz it was no good, because the bullets didn't go into it", and I got the rifle for $700... then I sold the McMillen BR stock, and put on a freebee 700 Laminated Varmint Special stock that had been sitting in the corner.

I'm into it for $450 ;)

It shot OK, but never great - it looked like it wanted to shoot, but I would always get fliers that shouldn't have happened. I thought it might be the stock, because it didn't fit me worth a damn, and my head was up in the air when shooting ;).

So this winter, I sold the Varmint Special stock on the net for $135, and bought a Boyd's Heavy varmint with a high rollover cheek piece stock for $185, and bedded it with "Steel Bed" epoxy.

So at this point I'm into the rifle for a whoppin' $485!!!! I took it out Tuesday and one group after another, tiny itty bitty ragged holes. It's a winner. I feel like a kid at Christmas.

But the point is - if the stock don't fit - you will never reach the potential of the riffle.

Some notes on Chronographs...

On another site, a guy asked "How do you know when you have put in too much powder in a load?".

He gets an answer that goes something like, "When you increase your powder, but you get a minor increase in velocity, you have reached max load".

Now... since the original question was very (VERY) basic, it is fair to assume that the person had little or no experence, so why would the guy have a chrono?? ((but I digress)...

... the thread took off on "... there is no such thing and can't happen", can too, can not, can too, can not, can too...

Actually, I "have" seen this effect, but it is a statistical anomaly. If you repeat the string, it is gone. It comes from the variances in sampling 5 shot groups.

Here's the problem with that "wives tale".

When you add more powder, you:

1 - Reduce the air space in the case.

2 - Increase the surface area of the burning stuff.

1 + 2 = you generate more gas that goes into less space, and since the "Stuff" is progressive burning, it raises pressure faster.

More pressure pushes harder on the bullet thing - so like all inert masses, the more pressure on it, the more faster it goes - there are NO exception to these basic rules of guns.

If you have a ES of 30, then, on average, you will have a velocity distribution all through out the 30fps range, like 3000, 3010, 3015, 3020, 3030. For a mean of 3015.

Then we add .x grains of powder, and we "should" get a distribution statistics of five rounds at (maybe) 3030, 3040, 3045, 3050, 3060, for a mean average of 3045, or 30~ish fps faster.

But, statistics also allow a distribution statistics of five rounds to be 3030, 3032, 3031, 3034, 3032, and the mean of these is 3031.8... so we say, "Like WOW man, I only got 16.8 fps change, so therefore... bla bla bla..."

But if you run the same string over again, you will never get the same figures.

On two occasions, I have run strings and come up with five velocities that were all the same, id est, 3407, 3407, 3407, 3407, 3407... so a ES of "0", and an SD of "0".

Do you think I'm dumb enough to think I have discovered the best load in the world - not this puppy. Run the same loads (weighed) in the same cases, and it will come out with an ES and SD just like the rest of the loads in the test base.

It is easy to be seduced by those magical numbers that pop out of the chronographs - I have been shooting over chrono's since the late 50s... I now believe about 80% of what they say.

The sun light angle changes, and your 3560fps load is now 3482, or 3795... Duh!

I had a long talk with Ken Oehler about 7 years ago about the absolute accuracy of chronos - mostly the state of the industry, not limited to his stuff.

It was an interesting conversation - most people absolutely believe the numbers that come out of a chrono like they were numbers coming from the National Bureau of Standards.

But they are not - there is no reasonable or practical way to calibrate a chrono, or check it's state of accuracy, and they ALL use the same $2, 4Mhz clock chip that is made in some country where you have to boil the water before you drink it.

The velocities on the same loads vary by the lighting, where the bullet flies through the window, and what the angle the bullet makes over the windows... yet, most shooters think that 3204 in the little window means absolutely, positively, irrevocably, 3204.000000000 feet per second.

It does NOT - Such beliefs are sheer fantasy.

There is accuracy, and repeatability.

If you want accuracy, you must be able to calibrate the chrono to some known standard - you can't!!

If you want repeatability, you must have a reliable light source with a positive ON/OFF window - as the current chronos work, the circuit board "senses" a soft, MINOR, change in the screen current, because the bullet shape is soft, and the light source is broad. There is no instantaneous on/off... so there is no absolute point that the chrono thinks the bullet is there - it's kinda like the chrono starts getting a hint that something is changing, then at some point, says, "Self, I think a bullet is going through the gate, so maybe we ought to start timing."

In order to be absolute, the light sheet must be thin (on the order of 1-ish millimeter), and the shadow cast must turn off and on completely - that is, from full light to full dark when the point of the bullet enters the sensing zone. Instead of a ramp on the detector circuit cell voltage, it must produce a square wave.

None of this is practical in a small unit that you can set up at the range.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 11:55:17 (ZULU)

Pablo: "cuz the bullets didn't go into it"

Great post.

CDC'
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 13:27:17 (ZULU)

Lito, great post. I come to realize that people who do not like something either do not understand it or is to lazy to understand it or has no experience and basing it on their feelings which has squat to do with anything. But in your case, the idiot is an idiot, and dang we have to many of them around here, that should never have been hatched from their mother's egg.

Took my office to the local gun range by SF, everyone had a blast. Going to take them once more but we will be shooting rifles next :-) Converting one at a time.

Darren
Bay Area, CA, USA - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:12:49 (ZULU)

Lito,

You would be amazed at the number of engineers, including Ph.D.s, that fall into that type of number trap.

Increasing the clock speed won't help, but actually will increase the variation of the reported measurement. The clock signals in microprocessors look like sine waves, not square waves. The trigger point will always have some uncertainty around it as well, no matter how thin the light screen.

But... it's still a whole lotta fun!

Duman
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:32:22 (ZULU)

MarcS,

Anyone that does that to a rifle does a disservice to the shooting community. We've all had mishaps and dinged up a rifle or two, but to intentionally trash a new rifle shows the world that shooters are a bunch of slobs.

I'm not directing this at you, but at the guys that video taped themselves behaving badly.

Duman
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:39:04 (ZULU)

Because the bullets wouldn't go into it. Amazing. I wish I could find deals like that.

Thanks for the info on Chronographs that was all new to me.

CDC that was good stuff.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:44:05 (ZULU)

On the 6mmBR...

I would have helped the guy if he said he was gonna sell it because he didn't understand it, and needed help.

But, like all us, I have my prejudices, and one of them is people that throw money at others like it was a weapon.

The guy was in his early thirties and was the stereotype yuppy - lived in a new condo, with the required BMW in the drive - and there wasn't a piece of furniture in the place that was more than a year old.

So he decided he wanted "the best varmint rifle" and threw money at it. So I have no mercy, and enjoyed cleaning his clock.

Duman...

>"Increasing the clock speed won't help, but actually will increase the variation of the reported measurement. The clock signals in microprocessors look like sine waves, not square waves. The trigger point will always have some uncertainty around it as well, no matter how thin the light screen.

But... it's still a whole lotta fun!"<

I wasn't implying that increasing the clock speed would make things more accurate.

In a chrono, the clock oscillator just drives the engine - it is not a sine wave, it is a square wave "flip/flop" osscillator.

But the detector circuit is a DC voltage through fast response cells, and changes in the DC voltage are ramps, similar to the leading and trailing edge of a sine wave, so there is no "exact" point that the circuit decides to start counting.

The sharper you can make that ramp, the more accurate the chronograph.

If you can make a system that has a ramp so fast, (as to appear as a square wave) you will reach the theoretical limits of the clock, which would be 2 parts in 4,000,000, or something on the order of 1/10th of an inch for a 4,000 fps bullet.

But we are light years away from that kind of accuracy.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 17:47:50 (ZULU)

Sportsman's paradise. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 20:13:13 (ZULU)

Marc, thanks for the video link. I'll check it out and see what they have to say. Also thanks to the others who took time to post replies to my questions, even the Negative one from Lito. BTW Lito sometimes being "anal" can be a good thing. Paying attention to the "little things" has probably saved my ass more than once.I'm no "CHERRY" when it comes to weapons,but there's no reason to get into that here.I was just looking for some other opinions, not looking to get slammed by some old know it all fart. Good shooting!! Daniel M. Hallman

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United States - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 21:48:34 (ZULU)

For all of you that realise what bullshit most counseling is. CLICK

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 21:55:50 (ZULU)

Gee, thanks for starting a flame war, Dan. Anyone wanna take bets on how long THIS Jhihad will last?

Marc,

That guy's a tool.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:03:33 (ZULU)

"...not looking to get slammed by some old know it all fart."

Whoa!

I read that as refering to 'Lito whether you meant it to or not; and that statement negates any positive attributes you bring just from its sheer ignorance. Ya see, to make such a judgment call based on one little post that countered your preconceived notions---well, that isn't the heights of intellectual curiosity, know whud I mean? Let's assume that I too am no newby to weapons...in fact, heck, let's assume I wore a silly green hat and made a living based on weapons' handling skills. In short, I knew some things.

...and still learned as much from Lito as I did from anyone else, if not more.

Know-it-alls sometimes do. A wise fella would recognize them when he finds one---as rare as it may be. But even the less wise would benefit from this slight shred of wisdom: better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt...

Joe M
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:08:14 (ZULU)

Daniel...

>"I'm no "CHERRY" when it comes to weapons,"<

Anyone that asks questions like -

>"I was wondering if anyone has used the David Tubb's loaded Final Finish ammunition to break in a new bbl? If so what do you think about the results? Also would it be ok to use surplus FMJ ammo to break the barrel in instead of the Federal 168 gr. match ammo that I am going to use in this rifle ( same ammo that I use in my FAL and it shoots great)?"<

... is CHERRY - you are as green as it gets. My 16 year old son knows the answers to your questions.

>"... not looking to get slammed by some old know it all fart."<

You were NOT slammed by me... I can assure you of that.

This is a long time group - most of the guys here have been shooting together for a long time - many are military or LE, most have long experence. While many are long range match shooters of one kind or another, none of us are impressed by the kind of anal talk that BR shooters get involved every day.

We are a bit more practical than that.

There are folks that come here and think we are impressed by all the "anal" crap, like their precious way the clean their barrels, how many strokes the use with their rods, and how many different cleaners they use, and the black magic rituals they go through in putting their rifle in the case.

This group is not impressed by that stuff. No one here gives a crap about how you carefully withdraw your cleaning brush from the barrel, and use a rod with a swivel so the brush follows the rifling... I mean that. Your "stuff" is childish.

I didn't slam you, I just recommended that you go to a site where that stuff is appreciated. Those guys can argue for DAYS on whether you should push the cleaning rod or "pull it" ;)

People at benchrest.com love that kind of stuff, and you should be talking to people that can answer your questions, and appreciates your diligence and compulsions.

No one here gives a crap.

The reason I say this is that we have discovered over the years that when someone new starts these kinds of threads, if they take off for whatever reason, most of the knowledgeable shooters just drift away, and the site dies... for weeks, or sometimes much longer like months, and it takes a long time to get them back.

I really hate that.

If you want to participate, why don't you start a thread that actually moves the art of long range shooting FORWARDS, instead of the same ol' thread on "how I use my rod" :))).

Take that from an old fart to a young "Cherry" snot ball. ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:11:12 (ZULU)

Lito,

I agree with you. I think we're on the same page.

Duman
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:23:16 (ZULU)

Duman...

I have thought a lot about the chrono problems, and actually came with a few designs for better gates (in the endless quest to get rich ;), but the biggest problem is the end user - most guys just want to know "about" how fast their bullets are going.

Even the CED and Oehler 35 chrono's had hard competition from the $99 Pacts, so how much can you get for a lab grade unit.

Plus Oehler found that they had more expense with the smaller units than the professional units, because the end users for the 33 and 35 were mostly people that couldn't be trusted with sharp toys or can't get milk out of a bottle. So Oehler had a full time phone person to answer questions 8 hours a day.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:38:59 (ZULU)

"So Oehler had a full time phone person to answer questions 8 hours a day."

Now, THERE's a job I wouldn't do!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:58:48 (ZULU)

Lito: Oh yeah...this IS snipercountry, after all! I get carried away with socio-economics at times--but sniper is the operative word. good post on the mind set.

Being anal, looking after the little things, is all fine and well so long as you know what it's all worth when you light up your FPF. That would be no time to be looking at a kestrel for accurate wind readings:)) Tactical shooting and BR is the same only from the press of the trigger to the follow thru; and even that will differ immensely as to 'where" those actions take place.

A sniper deals with whatever variables gets thrown at him---a bench shooter will stay home on a rainy day:))

Sometimes we forget the difference ourselves...

Joe M
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 23:19:36 (ZULU)

A chronograph can tell you the range your average muzzle velocity is in. It can also, if you measure enough rounds, give you an idea of how much variance you'll get on average, i.e., how consistent the load is - which is what S.D. is the figure of merit for.

However, once I go shoot that load out to, say, 1000 yards, and put the conditions and bullet data into my ballistic program(s), I always find that I have to tune the ballistic program so that its output matches my shooting data.

Given that, I don't worry too much about the accuracy of the chronograph, particular since the velocity of any particular shot is unlikely to be exactly the average - and some will be quite different.

If I can get the ballistic program to give me an idea of where to start at ranges out past 700 yards, I'm a happy camper.

Lindy
On the road in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 01:09:59 (ZULU)

Damn...........Last night I thought I was getting ready to play Dorothy. Friggin storms, hail and tornados all over the place. Had two tornados within 3 miles of the homestead. Tore up some jets over at the airport in Greensboro. My butt stayed puckered all night.........and my damn generator won't crank. ARRRGGGGGGHHHH I hate Generac gennies. Will be ordering a brand new 10000 watt Briggs tomorrow with electric start and all the bells and whistles. I'm too old to camp out.

Daniel........

Very few of us have paid the dues long enough to call Lito an old know it all fart. Even though he actually is an old know it all fart you aren't qualified to opine that. Those of us on this site that are long in the tooth don't appreciate that shit from a newbie. Nuff said............

Prepping LC brass......

Picked up 2500 rounds of once fired that didn't look too bad for machine gun brass......still nasty, boring and tedious. Just cleaned and deprimed 1250 and getting ready to move on to pocket swaging. There isn't enough beer in the world to make this enjoyable. I swaged and uniformed the pocket on a piece and was amazed at how shallow those pockets are.....lots of brass coming out of those holes with the Sinclair tool.

Chrono country......

I have a Oehler. I likes it but it can be finicky with sun and clouds passing over. The only reason I use it is to get a general idea of velocity so I don't hit the berm or go over the target at Butner.......very embarassing having to chase sighters.

Waiting for the next storms due in a couple of hours, Bolt tired and out!

Bolt
Tornado alley.........., NC, - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:13:12 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Are you out in western Kansas? My father in law told me you guys were getting it rough over there last night. It's just humid as hell, down near Mulvane. Plenty of skeeters, if any of you wanna come get 'em.

If you are in need of a good fly spray for the dogs and horses, get a product called "Flicks". It's even better than Pyranha, and it's all organic. I use it on the boy and myself. Has a minty smell, and it's a little sticky, but when you spray it on a fly, they fall over. DRT. Lasts all day, and water soluable.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:24:31 (ZULU)

Bolt, the older generacs with their own motors were pretty good (I have an old 4.5kw)...most of the new crap has tecumsah or some other maker's cheapo motor...

Look for an engine with cast iron cylinder and a rep for long, cool running. I've become a big fan of Yamaha and everyone knows the Kawi motors are superb as well.

medicjim
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:28:31 (ZULU)

medicjim,

What's your take on Honda generators?

Duman
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 04:38:29 (ZULU)

Cherry:

Pablo is not some "old know-it-all fart." He is some "know-it-all old fart."

There is a difference. Get it right.

CDC'
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 04:57:51 (ZULU)

Duman,

Hey I'll throw my 25+ years experience with small motors in general and generators in particular... Hondas are good to go as are the yammerhammers and kawi's. I kinda lean towards the kawi's but they are not as supportable as the hondas. There really is not much difference.

Biggest problem with any generator that is not used everyday is fuel.

You have to have some way of keeping the fuel 'fresh'. The 'new' reformulated crap is only good for about 30 days or so. I use a product called 'stabil' that works quite well. I just started my old gravely convertible after 5 or so months on the first wrap of the starter rope..

What ever you have it pays off to start it at least once a month and get it up to operating temp just to get the condensation out. As a bonus you have the knowledge that your stuff runs...

Just some musing from someone who has made his living from operating small motors day in and day out...

Stay safe

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 12:31:28 (ZULU)

Bolt, My experience is likely less intense than Calvin's. We run gen sets with the fire department and that's were I see most of the issues. The hydraulic tools we use are Holmatro, and they make small power units based on the small honda motors...a neighboring township runs larger honda sets for primary power on all their engines. They all hold up well.

The thing that got me with honda was about ten years when they introduced an inferior line of motors... they first were distinguishable with black plastic cases vs the red and white metal shells of the quality units... Lately, I've seen the crap engines with all manner of case, including red plastic that looks very much like the old, quality setups. You need to be very careful with Hondas,, because their lower line of motors are crap....the high end line is still good to go...just my opinion.

medicjim
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 14:30:39 (ZULU)

re: backup generators

For a low ongoing demand fixed installation setup, I would look at something that can be run on propane. Good fuel cost, long fuel shelf life. I've read that kind of setup is popular for new high-end homes in Florida, where planning for the inevitable hurricane power interruptions is now more prevalent.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 16:04:18 (ZULU)

I have had a Honda Generator for about 15 years - it is a 2200 EX "Something" quiet. It Was DAMNED EXPENSIVE!!

It is super quiet - I bought it for ham radio field day and I can run it on the porch and not hear it while siting in the living room 15 feet away, through just a glass door.

I have to second the comments about "Stabil"... I let it sit with gas in it one winter, and the evaporated gas gummed up the whole carb, floats, jets, needles etc... a full take down and clean in an ultrasonic cleaner with solvent for several hours to get the gum/varnish like stuff out.

Now I keep a 5 gal GI can gas with Stabil in it, and I run the gen dry when I use it.

Last year I was looking at Hondas and the current ones don't look as good.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 17:33:44 (ZULU)

HOGs been out of country a little while and got back on 8th. Only thing to say is when did Airlines forget how to fly? You would think stone age was back.

CDC, that is a great idea. Would be glad to help. Beanie Baby Prone. Did I call it that? LOL I use that for range alot but in field I still like my left hand under rear of stock

On cleaning a rifle. I have never actually cleaned one but if I did it would probably go something like this

1. Take one piece cleaning rod and put on eitehr used bore brush or one size smaller bore brush. Take patch soaked in Hoppes BR or Shooters Choice and wrap around brush. Push it down bore through bore guide from breach to muzzle. Unscrew brush, thrown patch away and do same thing again. Keep doing until you have carbon out. Thats usually five patches or so. Then push down a few dry patches.

Now switch to a cooper cleaner solvient and do same thing. Only let cleaner soak 2-5 minutes between patches. With good bbl you will have cooper out in five patches also. Now spray brush with WD40 to remove the cooper cleaner which will destroy the brush.

Now runa few dry patches and then a few oil patches to float out cooper cleaner. If its to be shot right away dry patch oil out. If not leave some oil for protection inside but remember to remove before shooting.

Whole thing takes less than ten minutes

As to break in try about ten pounds of sand if you want to ruin it fast. Otherwise just shoot and clean no abrassive shit and I can say that calling David a friend. I use his throat abrasive stuff to geta few hundred rounds out of a burnt throat rifle but thats it.

As to Litto, dont bite off more than you can chew. Guy knows alot and can shoot. I saw him make fools of all of us many years in prep for a sniepr comp, where we all crawled many yards to find good FFPs to shoot from and he just waited for us all to wander off and he planned a route where he walked to a spot, set up easily and made shots without getting busted. Never broke a sweat.

Now a question. What the hell is a Carbon Fiber cleaning rod supposed to do better? I mean I just started doing this.

Hey anyone going to Nationals in Lodi this year? Team USA will be there. Still deciding if I fly or drive across country. My new GA RPA rifle has yet to not max 500 and 600 stages (points not all x rings that .50 moa X ring is a bitch) but I figure next string will be the one I screw up big time. Guess how I clean it? The BR's all cringe when they discuss how they load and clean while this old dummy just shoots more.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 17:56:26 (ZULU)

If you need a small generator, the Honda EU1000i and the EU2000i are superb. The engines drives an alternator into an inverter, which produces clean AC you can run anything with. My EU2000i - 1600 watts continuous - weighs less than 46 pounds, and fits into the contractor toolbox on my truck.

It will run 4 hours at full load on a quart of fuel, and has an autothrottle for use with lower continuous loads, which cuts the engine speed back only to what the load demands. That cuts fuel usage even lower at partial loads, and is a benefit of the inverter, since line frequency is not dependent on motor speed.

I use it in the mountains in the summer with a 60-amp battery charger to charge the batteries in our travel trailer when in places with no electricity - which is most of them where we go. It's small and quiet, at 59 dbA.

Lindy
On the road somewhere in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 18:34:37 (ZULU)

UnDudeski...

>"Now a question. What the hell is a Carbon Fiber cleaning rod supposed to do better?"<

I have read that these can break (instead of bend) and when they do, they shatter and splinter badly, and can cut you up.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 18:54:32 (ZULU)

Mike/Undude,

Did my snail mail ever get there?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 20:23:38 (ZULU)

UnDude: "Beanie Baby Prone. Did I call it that?"

My daughter has a little "Beanie Baby" teddy bear. It has the same plastic bead filler as the bag you gave me, and worked fairly well as a substitute. She would take the bear to the range and use it with her .22. We called it, "Beanie Baby Prone". If I would have been thinking, I'd have snapped a picture.

CDC'
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 10:50:31 (ZULU)

Carbon fiber rods are bad juju for breaking and sticking in yer paws. I worked with graphite rod blanks and arrow shafts for many moons and I can tell you that shit will break when you least expect it and will mess up your day if you get the splinters stuck deep. 10 times worse than getting a splinter out. I was doing a repair on a 10' graphite surf rod that had a cracked tip end. I had trimmed it back to where I thought the splintering had stopped. I had just finished sanding it and ran my finger down to dust it off. I had a graphite splinter enter one side of my finger and out of the other side in the blink of an eye. Pulling that sucker out almost made my eyes leak............

YMMV, Bolt out!

Bolt
Next round of storms on the way in......, NC, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 11:33:49 (ZULU)

A wandering rant!

I need a better computer!!!

I'm on two other sites on a regular basis, and browse (but don't post) on a few others, and I'm depressed.

Everyone gets endless 1/4" groups out of their factory riffles, and their handloads get ES's of 10, and SD's of 2!!!

Well, my sticks are pretty good, and my loading technique is pretty good, so it must be my computer.

The internet is an interesting place ;)))

I got a laugh out of Joe's comment about socio-economics... and it got me thinking.

I've been on this site for maybe 12 years, and I can remember some colorful characters - Nato-Steve comes to mind. And going way back, a bunch of others, and I can't forget, "Master Kung Foo Sniper" :))).

But what caused this trip down nostalgia lane was our most recent visitor, "Cherry Dan". I guess he didn't have the stones to make the cut.

Most websites have a constant rollover of newbees that pop in with the same ol' questions, and if you are on the site for three months, you have gotten all you can get from it, because you will be reading, "Can I use IMR-4350 instead of H-4350?" for the fourteenth time by week eight!!

But that doesn't happen here anymore - we have had maybe two or three like "Cherry Dan" in the last year.

(I don't count Jon-K in that group cuz he was a good sport, and has learned a lot and moved up the ladder to being a no BS grasshopper).

So obviously, we're doing something right (or wrong), depending on your point of view.

In spite of the fact that we, as a group, don't have an endless outpouring of "techno-babble" about which gun case will tighten your groups, this site is read and respected all over the shooting community.

It absolutely amazes me, "where" and how often we are quoted around the net.

Shooters pour over this site and dig up stuff from our archives all the time.

So I guess we are doing something right.

... Hey Cherry Dan, come on back, we have good techno-babble for you!! Tomorrow, I'll report about the new gun case that I bought that reduced my groups from 1" to less than 1/4", just by letting the gun sit in it for a week.

Next week, I'm gonna report on a test I have been doing - if you store your riffles lying on the left side, it will compensate for spin-drift.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 13:38:55 (ZULU)

20 shots, 11 enemy KIA, 5 probables.

God loves American snipers.

sinister
Green Zone, getting rocketed, in this dusty frigging place - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 15:13:01 (ZULU)

Lito-san,

IIRC, your super-duper-sniper-secret was "green". I'll have to scrounge that one up.. one of my favorites.

Question on blueing (sp?). I recently sold an older Sako back to the guy from whom I originally purchased. I pulled it from the safe, after having not looked at it in a year or so. The blueing around the chamber appeared to have gone from 'black' to a purplish/brown. Turns out, it was exactly as the original owner remembered, so I was put at ease that I hadn't done something silly during storage.

Blueing is soemthing I view as alchemy. What makes one blued rifle "go purple" and another to remain "black"? What incantations do you invoke when you blue your stuff?

Duman
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 15:40:07 (ZULU)

Sinister: Congrats to the shooters.

A couple of days ago I posted some badly edited notes on rifle shooting. If you have a few minutes, your input would be invaluable and much appreciated.

To find the post, search [ Ommm ].

CDC'
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 16:35:43 (ZULU)

Dan,

Good write-up. I'd add if shooting with a sling and glove vice bipod that you accept your wobble area -- you aren't going to be able to hold a rifle with no movement.

Your prone position should be comfortable and not allow stress on your diaphragm, adding to pulse and rise. Cock your shooting side leg to take off pressure. Shift your natural point of aim by rotating about your belt buckle.

Letting out the breath is part of your natural respiratory cycle. If you don't get enough oxygen, pretty soon your vision starts to blur and fail and your pulse will go up.

Finger contact and grip are as varied as there are hands. Hold the weapon where it's most comfortable, but don't give it the barracks grip trying to bend a McMillan.

Follow-through as the striker goes forward is just as important as the trigger squeeze.

At Camp Perry during the Small Arms Firing School a champion NCO was asked what the secret to the perfect shot and going Distinguished was. He stood up and replied, "Properly align the sights with the target. Squeeze the trigger to make the rifle go off without disturbing sight alignment." Then he sat down.

sinister
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 18:10:23 (ZULU)

Duman,

It's not so much an oral "incantation", as it is more of a physical "kabuki dance".

just kidding, anyways, here's the short version, as I know it.

The colors, tints, and hues that come out of the blueing tank are due to a combination of 3 things. 1) the alloy mixture and proportions that are in the metal being blued 2) the chemicals used in the bath, and their proportions, and 3) the temperatures involved as well.

I don't presume to know all, by any shot. But when I was assisting years ago, this is the answer given to my same question. Model 12 recievers were great for producing 'rainbows', as an example. Rug... Ru... (that 'R' word) they came out rosy, for the most part, on the M77's.

Just my .02, and would you like change?

Sinister, sounds good, please, keep it up!

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Mb., Canada - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 18:16:40 (ZULU)

Sinister- Glad to hear of that score. I'm sure there's a great story there.

Don't you love the way high masters make it sound so easy? A friend of mine was pulling targets for a young Marine during a match at Camp Pendleton last year and was very impressed with his shooting. He cleaned his rapids, dropped a couple offhand and a couple in slow prone I think and finished out FAST with something like a 496'ish. My friend asked him for some advice on how to get a 195+ in offhand. The kids response was "Well, you put your rifle up here like this, hold it steady, and press the trigger when the sight picture looks good". The kid was not even trying to be funny and didn't realize what he had just said. I guess for some it's just that easy.

Mike- I might see you out there at the nationals. I won't be competing in that match but I'll be practicing on another one of the ranges there. I'm assuming FCS will be there too. I'll come by and see you guys.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area,, CA, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 18:32:04 (ZULU)

Dave, that made my day after a bad last night.

Had a Litto type night. Oldest Daughters 18th birthday and took her and her boyfriend out to dinner. Great time. Came back to Ex Wife telling daugfhters she did not want them to go to her house on mothers day because they had not vacumed her house last time there. Litto this is just the tip but everytime it reminds me of crap you have gone through. One thing to mess with me but when they mess with the kids I hope God is watching. Nothing like a grown woman making her daughters cry at a birthday party.

Doc, I havee several hudnred of the slings in production right now. Unfortunately they are all being worked on by my new worker/brotehr in law who needed work. They are coming along slow but perfect as his skills increase. He is as big a perfectionist as I am. Will let you know when ready.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 18:57:18 (ZULU)

Just found a story about Sean Penn's buddy Chavez providing aid to FARC fighters.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080511/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_chavez_and_rebels

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 21:11:35 (ZULU)

international Kestrel vendors:

Any other alternative competitive Kestrel vendor recommendations that will ship to Canada (or are Canadian domestic)?

I've decided on the Kestrel 2500NV. (Don't have an urgent need for NV, but it's a small premium and green is much more tacticool than orangish :-).

Platinum Ebay seller and authorized Kestrel dealer "balkowitsch" sells the 2500NV for $150 and will ship to Canada for fair price.

http://myworld.ebay.ca/balkowitsch

(I know, Ebay is anti-gun. )

Ran across my Jul/2006 product heads up on 2500NV in Jun/2006 SC. As Demo Dick (Richard Marcinko) says in his books, you'll be seeing this material again :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 21:24:41 (ZULU)

Guys, lost the kink sonewhere, but if anyone has a link to the story of the cops in Pennsylvania interrupting everyone's dinner at a buffett and demanding papers and serial numbers of guns, I'd appreciate it. Fucking Nazis.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 06:33:21 (ZULU)

Sinister: Thanks for the response. It is appreciated.

Now, where is Rick?

CDC'
Monday, May 12, 2008, at 11:28:59 (ZULU)

[url] Dickson City, PA police demand gun owners’ “identity papers” & conduct Katrina style gun confiscation!

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/10755.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 11:38:57 (ZULU)

Rod,

You rock, eh?

I absolutely LOVED this part:

Police look for cover from restaurant management

As the police began winding down their Kafkaesque theater act, one of the officers asked the Old Country Buffett manager on duty if he “had any problems” with the group remaining at the restaurant. The manager responded laconically that “we had no problems ‘till you showed up.”

Anyone have an update on this?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 14:15:23 (ZULU)

Po Po strike restaurant in Pa.

http://mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=6894

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/political-138/23480-come-attend-dickson-city-council-meeting-tuesday-13-may-7pm.html

Yikes, Whos breaking the law ????

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US of A - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 15:59:12 (ZULU)

For those of you that have been around for a while, you may recall I had a theory regarding a particular load in .260 that I was experimenting with....

We'll, after a weekend in the Allegheny mountains, I can say with some confidence that my theory holds water. The remarkable thing with this load is that the components are still very affordable.

If you get my drift and would like to try to reproduce my experimental success, contact my through roster email. - Jim

medicjim
Monday, May 12, 2008, at 20:22:59 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

e-mail sent!

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 20:44:00 (ZULU)

Lito, response sent, let me know what you think

medicjim
Monday, May 12, 2008, at 21:18:13 (ZULU)

OK lito, I wasn't trying to start a "flame war" with you and I did jump the gun a bit by calling you a "know it all old fart". All that I was asking for was a little information verification from some of the archived forums on this site about breaking in a new barrel. Looks as though I'm really making to much out of this so I guess that I'm guilty of being "anal" as you stated in your reply. Anyway for what is's worth at this point I apologize for calling you a " know it all old fart" and hope we can leave it at that. Daniel Marc, checked out the you-tube link that you gave me. Really got a good laugh out of it. Good shooting to all of you, Daniel

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United States - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 22:11:59 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

It sounds good - the Scenars have extraordinarily high BC for their weight, as they often make much larger hollow spaces in the bullet, so for a given weight, they have a better form factor - the 30 cal 155 Scenar is a prime example - a BC that is close to the 190 SMK, and when you add the velocity increase you get from a 155gr load - your are shooting a ballistic equivalent of a 300 Win Mag, with the recoil of a 308.

Daniel - don't sweat the small stuff...

... and it's all small stuff ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 00:51:35 (ZULU)

Varget and drop tubes

Any opinions on drop tube length dimensions for:

Varget and .223 Rem?

Varget and .308 Win?

I'm finding myself gravitating towards those combos, which is inconvenient for production flows.

In particular, I would like to figure out a way to progressively load a compressed Varget charge for .223 Rem. It apparently needs a drop tube if I want to drop enough powder into the case and seat the 75g OTM projectile to magazine length.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 00:56:31 (ZULU)

drop tubes redux:

Ok, changed my .223 Rem powder measure setup to include the Lee Auto-disk riser kit. That increments the defacto length of the drop tube by 1.4 inches. Total length is now around 5.5 inches. However, the top is *not* a large funnel, which I suspect is part of the magic associated with a long drop tube.

Comments?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 01:32:17 (ZULU)

Hi Daniel,

Don't worry about the rough introduction to the DR. I promise there have been many that were much worse and later became respected and regular posters as I suspect you will be.

It's just the internet LOL.

I like the way you came right back the way you did. Good man.

On the video- That guy is a rude, crude, hard ass sonofabitch from south east Alaska. A logger that, apparently makes a shit load of money and spends it all on guns and fishing tackle. He owns somewhere between 2 and 3 dozen custom rifles I'd guess, most of which are in McMillan stocks. The environment that he operates in is eternally wet and everything rusts. All of his rifles are stainless/fiberglass combos. He made that video out of frustration from the internet experts who get super technical about a particular method of barrel break in they may consider superior. He is of the opinion that it doesn't matter at all. So he made the little humorous vid as a stab at those types. Nothing more to it than that really. He actually wears rifles out anyway so the few nicks and scratches were purely cosmetic and meant nothing to him. Most either like the guy or absolutely hate him. I like him.

For what it's worth all I do is clean the barrel after every shot for the first 5 or so. Both carbon and copper. You'll notice that on a custom barrel it stops holding copper after about 3 or 4 shots. There's no mistaking it you'll know when it happens. Then I do a ten shot group, thoroughly clean it all out one more time, and that's it. I'm done. I don't use JB or any other abrasive until about 600 or 700 rounds and then it's not much. I'm scared of the scratchy stuff in my barrels.

I should also say that this comes from my VAST experience of 3, yes that's a total of THREE, custom barrels.

Welcome to the DR.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 05:31:19 (ZULU)

Mike Miller (and any of you gentlemen): If you have the time and the inclination, take a (another?) look at the "checklist" post. Your comments would be appreciated.

Search "checklist". That is a lousy name, but I'm stuck for something better.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 12:46:27 (ZULU)

For you snipie types that practice on fuzzy critters, I thought you might get a kick out of this article from a Colorado News Paper...

---

Prairie dogs face new threat: bureaucrats

Wednesday, May 07, 2008

Any society that can afford to fret about the fate of nature’s hairy answer to the cockroach — the prairie dog — has to be considered a mite confused.

Not surprisingly, that society would be this one.

Yes, the federal government has agreed to consider the possibility that the white-tailed prairie dog might be an endangered species.

That would be the same prairie dog that you see haunched up in the desert, generally surrounded by fleas.

Not being particularly bright, they also tend to become decorations on Desert Duelers and naturalistic murals on Michelins and Goodyears as they dash onto busy roadways to chomp down on the remains of their erstwhile townies.

More frequently, they, or what’s left of them, end up as chow for hawks, eagles, coyotes, cougars, bobcats and so on.

And, horror of horrors, prairie dogs also tend to spend some of their last moments in the cross hairs of telescopic sights of modern rifles wielded by human sharpshooters.

The last activity, of course, is considered unacceptable by one subset of humanity that simply cannot stand the thought of another subset wandering unregulated about the public lands.

Which brings us to the point at which we are now considering spending hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars, on highly trained technocrats who will devote untold hours to counting prairie dogs in the sagebrush, piñon, and juniper-studded high country of the Rocky Mountain West.

They will report their findings to bureaucrats and lawyers in Washington, D.C., who then will shred acre upon acre of forest for the paper on which they will write notes, drafts and proposals for the future of the prairie dog.

Some might even note the prairie dog is anything but a dog. Far from being related to such noble creatures, prairie dogs are shirttail relatives of squirrels.

No one is certain, but it is known that fossilized p-dogs have been found in North America. Certainly some of the tiny mammals that survived dinosaurs bore marked resemblances to prairie dogs and their kin.

No doubt that once the smoke clears from the volcano erupting near Chaiten in Chile, the first little creatures to emerge will be relatives of our very own high-range furry roach.

These bite-sized beasties don’t survive by accident. They survive because too many larger species depend on them.

They make rabbits appear strait-laced. They can’t run like hares, and they have few defenses outside their burrows. But they’re the high-desert equivalent of fast food: Predators can eat and run.

If p-dogs were as valuable and as threatened as they’re purported to be, then it would make sense to donate them to the military junta in Burma as a renewable protein source for Burmese who survived the cyclone.

That won’t happen, obviously, but it’s worth noting that while the Burmese struggle to survive, one human subspecies is more concerned with the future of the p-dog than the Burmese.

Which is funny because, like the cockroach, the prairie dog will outlive us.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 16:12:31 (ZULU)

Lito,

That came from a CO paper?? Huh. Go figure.

The last time I shot prairie-roaches, a golden eagle swooped in for dinner before the roach was cold.

Duman
Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 16:58:49 (ZULU)

Duman...

When we shot them in SoDak, we would leave a true "field of carnage".

The next morning, there would be no signs of dead PDs - not even the bones.

We were supporting the food chain ;))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 17:10:20 (ZULU)

This reminds me of one of the most recent attacks on gun owners in California.

http://www.savethecondor.com/press/vcs101407.html

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 01:35:14 (ZULU)

Just a thought: In the areas where there are a bunch of unexploded landmines, couldn't we just turn a BUTTLOAD of prairie rats loose? In far east countries, this would be dual purpose. The proliferate like crazy, and those people will eat ANYTHING.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 06:40:22 (ZULU)

Our family is going to Singapor, Jakarta, and Bali for vacation. This trip is a gift from my best friend (who I met in College)to my daughter as a graduatin present. He made a wager with her when she started jr. high that he would give her what she wanted (within reason) if she got straight A's for the year. Most years she would ask for nuttin' and last year she told him that, for getting A's every year through graduation, she wanted a family trip to his home.

I expected her to ask for a car. Not something so unselfish. The last time we were there she was three, and she wanted memories to match the pictures we have from last time.Yup I'm a proud poppa.

Speaking of kids who have their heads on straight, remember the littlest girl from the Cosby Show. She has been working with Disney as "Raven". Your kids know her ; ) Raven "came out" as a shooter in PEOPLE magazine. Her favorite stick is a sniper rifle. It was a pretty good article. I wonder how long it will take for her carrer to tank.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 06:42:48 (ZULU)

Guys,

A certain little 12 year old in my house very nearly died tonight.

As I told you guys, here recently, I got a mint condition Winchester 94 Saddle Ring Trapper in .30-30 for less than half of what it's worth. I never even shot it, because I wanted it to retain it's value.

I cleaned it, wiped off all the fingerprints, wiped it down with Sheath, put it in a gun sock, then put it where NOTHING would damage it.

.......or so I thought.

It's been fairly humid here for the last couple of months, so I thought, "Hey, maybe I'll get it out, look at it, and make sure I put enough Sheath on it.". Mainly, just an excuse tpo get it out and look at it, ya know? I've NEVER owned a new gun. This is as close as I've ever gotten.

Well, after carefully getting it out, carefully setting it down, and removing the sock, I notice a HUGE GOUGE in the bottom of the magazine tube. Not like a dent, not a scratch, I mean about half the size of a dime, and deep enough that the metal's pushed up on one side of it.

My first thought was a 2 a.m. "shock and awe" wake-up, but I figured I ought to wait until the veins in my neck stopped jumping so hard, and my eyes stopped bulging out.

I guess this is my payback for losing some of Dad's tools as a kid, and some other stuff, but I about had a complete shit fit.

Anyone know where I could get this fixed and reblued to where it looks correct? Ideas on how much it should cost?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 08:47:32 (ZULU)

Steve Dzupin sent me a link to a video of this guy moving HUGE stones, A La Stonehenge, so I searched, and found his site.

Being an asshole, I often have to work alone, so I've always liked figuring out ways to use balance, leverage, and strength to to a job easier. This guy appears to be a kindred spirit. He even moved a pole barn to another property BY HIMSELF! No power equipment at all! Just a big ole lever.

If he has a fan club, I'll wear the T-shirt!

P.S.~ Lito, this is thanks to Steve's insomnia, not mine.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 11:17:09 (ZULU)

Travis,

This may be an option...

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=10977&title=WIN.%2066,73,92%20&%2094%20MAGAZINE%20TUBE

UnPat

UnPat
Wi , USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 11:20:48 (ZULU)

Travis,

You might give these guys a call. I've had a lot of re-blue jobs done by them and they were all outstanding. They are not cheap.

http://www.simmonsguns.com/

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 13:09:15 (ZULU)

re: W94 mag tube fix

I'm with UnPat in this one. If you can still get the tube from Brownells, that will be by far the easiest fix.

Order quick, a lot of the W94 parts are out of the pipeline for now.

Plan B - Gun Parts Corp for same.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 17:11:03 (ZULU)

"Being an asshole, I often have to work alone,..."

'Bout killed another keyboard reading that while drinking coffee:))

Speakin' of habits: Day 4 (or 5 if I count the day I tossed my can) without copenhagen. I can give anyone a run on "asshole" certification, at least until the withdrawal lets up some.

Now, I bet I couldn't hold steady to save my life. If that doesn't pass, I can always unquit.

The boy is back on track in training. His desire to sneak cell phones and spent ordnance has been greatly diminished, if not beat clean outta him:))

One real-life found tick inevitably leads to 50,000 "ghost" ticks crawling all over yer hide.

Joe M
Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 22:40:03 (ZULU)

Wally's world !

http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/posts/moving_big_rocks

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey ( Peoples Republic of ), US of A - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 23:18:39 (ZULU)

Joe M: Congrats on the boy. That's good news.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 23:29:15 (ZULU)

Joe:

ticks were definitely something I didn't miss when I left North Carolina. Concur about "ghost" ticks. Also didn't miss chiggers.

They say ticks have made it this far north. Haven't seen any locally, but saw one in Yarmouth, NS several years ago. Found it on the move, thank goodness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tick

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 00:53:11 (ZULU)

Joe:

Good idea to use a "keyboard condom" or have a spare keyboard ready when reading from the Internet :-)

keyboard condom: A flexible, transparent plastic cover for a keyboard, designed to provide some protection against dust and programming fluid without impeding typing.

http://catb.org/jargon/html/P/programming-fluid.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 00:56:58 (ZULU)

OK, now I'm asking whom I believe are the no BS experts... what would be y'alls recommendation for a 30 cal. suppressor that would also be used on a 5.56. I'm led to understand that while not quite as effective, using a 30 cal. suppressor on a 5.56 does work.

I'd prefer not to have a "screw-on" mount, but something that's more or less "quick detach"....and precise enough to minimize POI shift between "can-no can".

I've looked at other boards/sites and "Googled" firearms suppressors and find information(?)/opinion all across the board....wet/dry/level of performance/consistency/etc.

I would suspect that a "known" product would be best??? Ie. AWC/GemTech/AAC/Surfire(yeah, right...its only $$$).

Also, there's a manufacturer here in Montana...Elite Iron...not too far away that says good things about their stuff (duh!).

Awaiting words of wisdom.....

SteveinButte
Butte, Montanaaaa, USofA - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 02:24:11 (ZULU)

Greetings,

What is the vedict on the surplus Indian .308 ball that is avaiable on the market lately? Rumor has it that dangerous, both to user and firearm, to shoot. Anybody have any information? Thx

Pat II
Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 02:46:53 (ZULU)

Pat II:

THR thread on 1975 and 1990's vintage India surplus .308:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=342127

Has pointers to other sources too.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 03:33:16 (ZULU)

Rod,

Thanks for the info. I think I am good to go. Interesting site. Thanks again.

Pat II
Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 04:00:16 (ZULU)

Steve, Check this site for info on suppressors. lot's of knowledge here.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/index.php

Cheers

George Daly
Dickson, Tn., USof A - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 04:00:44 (ZULU)

Pat II:

You're welcome. Lot of good firearm knowledge on THR. The moderators are pretty aggressive about keeping it on ...

The High Road.

I've seen John Ross, Massad Ayoob and some other notables over there on occasion.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 04:19:54 (ZULU)

Update on the Nazi cops in Pennsylvania. No, they haven't been bound over for trial. Click

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 09:06:33 (ZULU)

223 Pet Loads

I know we've done this many times before, but for those of you willing to play along, what are your favorite loads in an AR-15?

Bullet: Hornaday 55gr FMJ

Powders: H-322, H-335

Thanks in advance.

Duman
Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 19:21:28 (ZULU)

Duman:

.223 Rem, AR15, 55g FMJ

H-322 - 23.0g max - used it, works fine.

H-335 - 25.3g max - used slightly above that, works fine (diff loading manual data)

Load data from Lee Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed.

Both meter fine, perfect load density in .223 Rem.

The H-335 loading is somewhat faster than the H-322 loading, similar pressure levels.

Usual disclaimers and warnings apply...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 23:32:21 (ZULU)

"Know it all old fart"

Hee hee ...

That made me laugh.

Hell Junior ... he does know it all.

Sinister wrote: "God loves American snipers"

Indeed. What a donation HE made ... John 3:16

Just blowin' through. Good to see the gang.

OUT

brian k. sain
Friday, May 16, 2008, at 00:01:28 (ZULU)

BKS:

Don't be a stranger. I cherish your stories.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 01:11:15 (ZULU)

AR-15 load:

If you have the twist for it, 77 grn SMK over as much Varget or RL-15 as you can get into the case.

Works even better out of a bolt gun with a 24 to 26 inch barrel.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 05:05:16 (ZULU)

re: .223 heavy projectile loading:

JC wrote:

"...as much Varget or RL-15 as you can get into the case."

That typically means using a drop tube or vibrating the case to pack down the powder.

I'm still trying to figure out how to accomplish that on a progressive press without enormously slowing down the workflow.

Constructive suggestions invited

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 11:53:21 (ZULU)

Swallow your coffee, then click. Watch at 1 minute, then again at 1 minute, 30 seconds.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 14:19:57 (ZULU)

Daniel: "...I did jump the gun a bit by calling you a "know it all old fart".

I was impressed that you are such an astute judge of character.

Ain't that right, Pablo? ;)

CDC'
Friday, May 16, 2008, at 15:35:17 (ZULU)

Going to try and make my first match of the year tomorrow.....if nothing happens. Have missed three matches this year due to you name it. I started taking a antibiotic yesterday for rosacea on my ugly red face and it kinda messes up the bodily sanitary system. I have an aversion to antibiotics anyway and having to take them for something as stupid as a red face really sucks. Next month I've got to ride the silver bullet. Been putting it off for three years. Having to take a day off to have someone invade my netherparts with a fiber optic hockey pusher is a terrible waste of vacation days. Dread drinking the swamp water most of all..........

Rod......

Dump the 55's if you have a 1:9 or tighter twist. Get some 77 SMK's or Hornady 75 BTHP's (cheaper and just as good or better). Dump 24.5 - 25 grains or RE15 or Vargay in the brass with whatever primer you have on hand and let them fly. Check yer primers when the weather is hot, may can get by with 24.0 - 24.5 in the summer.

New 1500 yard range in NC......

Damn spanky, looks like I get to stretch it out to 1500 yards pretty soon. Some folks are opening up a new range in Louisburg about 2 hours from the humble abode with max caliber of 50. I feel a 338 or 50 may be in the future.

Time to hit the garden and repair the damage, Bolt out!

Bolt
Shooting tommorrow....I hope, NC, - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 17:35:17 (ZULU)

Rod, JC: Thanks for the input. I'll go that route. I've got lots of H322/H335, and a ton of 55FMJ.

Bolt: I'll give the 77grSMKs/HDY 75BTHPs a shot in the future. All the best, it sounds like you're on a rough ride.

InSain: Thanks for the drive-by!

Duman
Friday, May 16, 2008, at 18:20:34 (ZULU)

Joe M

Keep up the good fight, quitting is worth it later, though not much fun right away. A store display of chewing tobacco still made my mouth water years after I stopped. Good news on the boy, funny how boot camp tends to do that. He'll make it and you'll both be proud of him.

Erik

Erik in Kodiak
Friday, May 16, 2008, at 18:28:58 (ZULU)

CDC...

>" Daniel: "...I did jump the gun a bit by calling you a "know it all old fart".

I was impressed that you are such an astute judge of character.

Ain't that right, Pablo? ;)"<

Yup, Dat's right!!

BoltsterDudeski...

E-mail on the way about the 1,500yd 50-BMG friendly range.

Hurry back with some info, I'm starting to breath funny ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 22:36:45 (ZULU)

Bolt:

I wasn't necessarily recommending 55's, just replying to a request for load data using same and H322, H335.

I already have a 100 piece box of Hornady .224 75g OTM's. I'm trying to work up a load and confirm that my 1:9 Mike Rock 20" button rifled AR15 barrel likes them before buying larger quantities.

The Hornady 75g OTM is one of the few match-grade heavy .223 Rem projectiles that I have Canadian bulk sourcing for at "reasonable" prices. 600 packs are available for $C116.71 plus shipping and taxes. I want a loading that will work out of a standard interior cartridge overall length AR15 magazine. (2.260" or so).

A long-range .223 Rem loading is not compelling for my usage. The range where I normally shoot my AR15 will eventually have max 250 meters (or so) for it's rifle range - 200 currently. I finally came to my senses and decided that a rifle is most easily utilized and useful if I a developed a single quality loading for it, rather than messing around with a lot of different loadings. Also makes it easier to set up a proper zero too.

My first test loading experiment with 75g Hornady OTM projectiles and IMR4896 (yes, 4896! - non-canister grade factory test run) was a failure for velocity. I tried IMR4896 because I have a bunch of it already onhand. Didn't have any apparent 100yd stability issues, but the single group I shot was disappointing. Since I was using too hot a load for the powder/brass/projectile combo, I didn't want to shoot several groups. (Primers were getting blown out). I'm having some mild vision issues, so the group issue could easily be the "nut behind the butt".

Loading trial 2 will be using 25g of Varget *stuffed* into commercial brass. Waiting to get chrono-worthy outdoor weather range time to shoot for group (to confirm stability) and velocity. I am optomistic about both, standard recipe of 75g OTM and a case-full of Varget is a current classic that I've seen mentioned in several locations.

I'm working on a DIY chrono illuminator that could be used with heavy overcast/rainy/snowy weather or indoors where only fluorescent lighting is prevalent.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 23:26:12 (ZULU)

Travis: The "moving heavy objects" link was fascinating. Archimedes' "give me a long enough lever and a place to stand" statement seemed abstract and theoretical. It looks like it wasn't.

CDC'
Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 10:33:19 (ZULU)

Archimedes - another "know it all old fart" :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 12:22:24 (ZULU)

Bolt

I hear you on the invasion of privacy thing. Did that last winter.

Now i'm sitting here in this robotic chair while it works my right shoulder.

Torn rotator cuff sure as hell has screwed up my hole summer

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 12:48:04 (ZULU)

I met this young SEAL in Texas where I was teaching. He and his brother were members of SEAL Team 5. Marcus is the lad who just got the Navy Cross (I believe) for a real bad time in A-stan. He wrote a book about it called Lone Survivor. The man has been to Hell.

Listen to him; he is not polished but very real. He will make you laugh too.

S/F

Finger

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?RsrcID=2507

Jim Reifinger
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 15:15:02 (ZULU)

Travis, not to burst your bubble, but after 3 or 4 go-rounds, it was obvious the clip is faked. This is not to say that I haven't known of folks stupid enough to have done something like that for real.

WR Moore
Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 19:07:17 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

I've heard that nonstop from the same people that declared both Hogzilla and Monster pig to be fake. Enjoy it for what it is.

That said, I figure the blip is the electronics reacting to the explosion.

I really don't care whether or not it's "fake". I just think it's funny as hell.

Jim,

Thanks for the video. I think I could like that guy.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 21:17:49 (ZULU)

rod regier: Old Archie was quite a guy. He was about an inch away from inventing integral calculus when he was killed, which was something like 2,000 years ahead of everyone else.

Have you ever heard of Hero (or Heron) of Alexandria? Unbelievable mind. Among other huge acts of intellect, he programmed computers of his own design in the first century A.D.

CDC'
Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 01:29:08 (ZULU)

CDC:

I recalled the "Hero engine" from a book on inventors I read in my teens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_engine

Didn't recall his mathematical endevours.

Hero of Alexandria:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

One of Hero's known publications:

Mechanica, preserved only in Arabic, written for architects, containing means to lift heavy objects.

How's that for a functional cross-reference to Archimedes?

I recall Newton being associated with integral calculus in modern times. Wikipedia says: In mathematics, Newton shares the credit with Gottfried Leibniz for the development of calculus. (I'm sure you knew that, but others reading this may not).

Newton was another amazing "know it all old fart".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issac_newton

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 03:08:34 (ZULU)

rod: You have to wonder at these people. Years ago, in an elementary DE class, we were shown the Variation of Parameters model. I didn't get it and went home to derive the thing from scratch. While looking at the finished work I realized that I was gazing at beauty. The people who develop this sort of thing are - most often - broadly accomplished. If memory serves - and it may not - Liebnez (sp) is a good example. He was a gifted linguist and powerful diplomat, was fluent in several languages, wrote books on philosophy that will influence human thought far in to the future, and - in his spare time - developed calculus. We are still using his notation.

CDC'
Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 03:43:29 (ZULU)

Interesting fact I just learned:

Jimmy Stewart (the actor) was an Air Force Brigadier General Whodathunkit?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 07:59:55 (ZULU)

Sure was Travis. He and his wife visited us in Vietnam at 3rd Force in Quang Tri. They were their to see his step-son Lt. Rod McClean, who later was KIA. Very Sad.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 14:52:28 (ZULU)

Joe,

quitting the pixie dirt was one of the hardest things I`ve done. I tried the fake stuff and gum. No good. I finally just decided 'I owned it, it didn`t own me. Going on two years and I could go out and buy a can tomorrow. Stay with it!! Your tongue will thank you.

It makes for some long days in your tree stand but you`ll get over it.

Steven S. Racer
Earth, - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 17:24:13 (ZULU)

Steven: No kiddin'--this is hard. The urge to greviously wound anyone crossing me has finally passed, but the indigestion---sorta sour heartburn--seems to be chronic ever since my first nicotine urge hit (after tossing the stuff out my window). That sucks. I'm slowly settling out of all of this though. Each day is easier than the last. My reason for quitting was financial: I am changing policy coverages and wanted "non-smoking" rates applied. That got me thinking about why i still used the crap--since all my other excuses no longer apply (stress of deployed life, burning candles at both ends, etc). Then there's my daughters: Wouldn't be cool to skip out on life before they head out on their own...all coincided one fine day and i just chucked the can on the spot. Figured I was bigger than the addiction. I hate when I understimate the enemy:))

Now if I could just quit fencing, life would be good. And that is not the foil-type of fencing!

Heron's leaps beyond his peers was alomost supernatural. There were a few in history like this. Makes you wonder where we'd be if we weren't so proficient at forgetting thru time.

Joe M
Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 18:00:32 (ZULU)

re: Heron

I believe much of what we know of Heron and others from that era comes from the scraps of what survived the Library of Alexandria. Since the library was intentionally burned down, only a small amount of it's holdings survive to modern times. The invention of the printing press made knowledge much less vulnerable to loss of a single major storehouse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 19:36:32 (ZULU)

"The invention of the printing press made knowledge much less vulnerable to loss of a single major storehouse."

Quite possibly the perfect understatement:))

Screw the reformation and the renaissance; we gotta save our library:)) Heeheh. Jokes aside, when you think about knowledge lost prior....that statement is profound. It marks the uninterrupted accumulation of knowledge (or, as noted here, the re-accumulation of knowledge)

In Heron's case, enough "fact" is on record to establish his genius....BUT, I am starting to take exception to History, TLC, Discovery's (etc) myth-building where the record is non-existant. Speculation is fine, like the series on earth minus humans and the dramatic injection of dialogue in the Adams' series....but too often lately I have noticed that the speculative is mixed with fact in ways that the average person may not separate. To me, this bad. But hell, this is far from new: Cherry tree, anyone?

Metalurgy, hydraulics, mechanical advantage, steam power--all subject to the rise and fall of civilizations since they began. We know that societies focused on survival do not get too technical...but mature, stable ones can and will. Then, for a variety of reasons, those gains would be lost over and over.

It makes you wonder where we could be today if the press was invented a millenia earlier...

Joe M
Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 21:26:57 (ZULU)

JoeM: "We know that societies focused on survival do not get too technical...but mature, stable ones can and will. Then, for a variety

of reasons, those gains would be lost over and over...."

Because they get comfortable and do things to avoid disrupting that comfort....

Take care out there....

ON the Dem's side -- will it be O'blinton, or Clinboma?

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 23:07:46 (ZULU)

Ken...

>"ON the Dem's side -- will it be O'blinton, or Clinboma?"<

Whichever one it is, - it's gonna be real bad.

Some Republican insiders are saying that this might be the end of the Republican party (for all practical purposes) for 10 or 15 years, and I agree.

We will probably loose 30+ plus seats in the house, and the senate is looking at a veto proof win, which means that "O'blinton, or Clinboma" will get whatever they want, and theres nothing that the remaining repubs can do about it - they might as well stay home for the next 8 years...

I have never seen such a political screw-up in all the years, as Bush has done in the last 8 - all the gains in the '94 elections have been thrown away by a bunch of greedy assholes.

Unfortunately, Bush is too immature to do what is needed to salvage the party and the '08 elections. Too bad.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 23:41:17 (ZULU)

Hate to interrupt the great discussion on Heron and the Library of Alexandria..

Last night I was at a buddies grand-daughters Christening and learned of this.And if its a repost,my apologies.

Whitepages.com

Its basically a site listing all sorts of good intel,like phone number(s),address,maps to your house.Just enter your name in the fields and click search.It doesnt matter if you fill in the State you reside in or not as any listing under that name will come up and it shows what State,too.I just looked up my family members names and son of a bitch....They were listed.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 23:52:49 (ZULU)

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