Sniper Country Duty Roster

This evening my daughter asked me if I wanted her to defecate the dishes.

That makes it all worthwhile.

Joe: "...i did equally dumb things early on,..."

I'm still doing them.

"They say you live and you learn, but the lessons just go on and on."_____Clint Black

CDC'
Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 02:09:20 (ZULU)

Please vote this gun issue question with USA Today. It will only take a few seconds of your time. Then pass the link on to all the pro gun folks you know. Hopefully these results will be published later this month. This upcoming year will become critical for gun owners with the Supreme Court accepting the District of Columbia case against the right for individuals to bear arms.

First - vote on this one. Second - launch it to all the pro-gun folks and have THEM vote - then we will see if the results get published.

To vote in the USA Today poll, click on the link below. Does the Second Amendment give individuals the right to bear arms?

Vote here:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/quickquestion/2007/november/popup5895.htm

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 02:56:48 (ZULU)

Well, now I'm glad I didn't hang my ass out as father of the year in the current discussion. The boy (12) went fishing with the neighbors yesterday, then when he came home, and my wife and I were still gone, he and the idiot neighbor boy decided it would be a good idea to start a small fire in the street! Neighbor kid's dad told them to stop as he was leaving, but when he came home, they were starting a fire in my driveway.

After school, he got to do a pile of dishes and pick up dogshit. He's gonna learn, one way or another.

Sharon, Re: the poll: 97% believe in the right of individuals to keep and bear.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 05:43:59 (ZULU)

Shamelessly stolen from someone that stole it from somewhere else-

"We in Denmark cannot figure out why you are even bothering to hold an election.

On one side, you have a ***** who is a lawyer, married to a lawyer,

and a lawyer who is married to a ***** who is a lawyer.

On the other side, you have a true war hero married to a woman with a

huge chest who owns a beer distributorship.

Is there a contest here?"

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 06:35:16 (ZULU)

I took my shooting chrony brand chronograph to the range the other day and it decided to go completely haywire on me, resulting in a lost day on load development. I need to buy a new one and recall Lito saying good things about the CED unit... I'd appreciate any input on recent experiences with currently manufactured units...good, bad or other. The one concern I have with the CED from the picture and description is that the shooting lane looks kinda small...with the offset from a scope, I'd be concerned with shooting the unit accidentally.

medicjim
Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 14:23:59 (ZULU)

Medic...

The CED shooting space is like the Oehler - no problems.

I like it more and more - will probably get another this summer.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 18:21:37 (ZULU)

JoeM: With the new schedule, will you join Bravo and me at Badlands?

re: Lying, Bill Cosby told a story during an interview. His son lied to his mom, while Bill was working. Bill gets home, takes the boy out back, smacks him on the butt three times, then tells the boy "OK, that's all."

The boy turns to leave, and Bill smacks him on the butt one more time. With tears in his eyes, the boy says "I thought you said you were done."

Bill says, "I lied."

CDC': Defecate the dishes? LOL!

Wasn't it Mark Twain who said, "When I was 14, I thought my dad was dumb. When I reached 21, I was amazed at how much he learned in 7 years."

Lito: RE: CED chrono, what flavor PC are you running it with? Any compatibiity issues?

Duman
Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 20:03:52 (ZULU)

Scores killed, hundreds wounded in domestic terror attack

BOSTON – Police and National Guard units seeking to confiscate a

cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed Sunday be

elements of a para-military right wing extremist faction.

Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and

more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to

withdraw. Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas

Gage declared that the extremist militia faction has citizens who

have links to the radical right wing tax protest movement. Gage

blamed the militia for recent incidents of vandalism directed against

internal revenue offices.

The governor who described the group's organizers as "terrorists" ,

issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any

individual who has interfered with the governments efforts to secure

law and order. The law enforcement team augmented by elements of the

National Guard, were sent to raid a militia arsenal after widespread

refusal of right wing extremists to turn over recently outlawed

assault weapons. This decision followed a meeting in early July

between government and law enforcement which authorized the

confiscation of the illegal arms, known as the weapons of choice

among criminals and militias.

One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed

out "that none of these people would have been killed had right wing

extremist obeyed the law and turned over the weapons voluntarily" .

Police and government forces initially succeeded in confiscating a

large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops

attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with

resistance from heavily armed militia extremist who had been tipped

off regarding the government's plans.

During a tense stand-off in Lexington 's town park, National Guard

Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered

the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse

was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the

right wing extremist. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing

exchange.

Ironically, the local citizens blamed the government forces rather

than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be

restored, heavily armed militia groups from surrounding areas had

descended upon the police and guard units. Colonel Smith finding his

forces over matched by militia mobs, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national

joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor

has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and

leading the attack against the government. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere,

and John Hancock, who have been identified as ":ringleaders" of the

extremist militia faction remain at large.

( The American Revolution begins, as reported by Associated Press)

(Compiled by Charles Norton and New American Magazine.)

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 13:57:43 (ZULU)

Duman...

I did run it with Mac OS-8 and a laptop.

But I'm hopin' to "find" a used PC. The software for the PC has no issues.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 14:30:53 (ZULU)

re: wind/enviro instruments

Any concensus on wind/enviro measurments tools for field usage?

I'm kind of leaning towards the Kestrel 2500NV. (Not a big premium for the NV variant, and green is more tacticool than orange :-)

I know it's not the only approach to such matters, but it does help with the learning curve. Having barometric measurment capability is helpful, and the only real alternative to that is not field-expedient.

The Kestrel 2500 accurately measures:

Wind Chill

Air, Water, and Snow Temperature

Displayed in Fahrenheit or Celsius w/ accuracy of +/-1°

Current, Average, and Maximum Wind Speed

Wind Speeds displayed in: Beaufort Wind Scale; Knots; MPH; KPH; or Feet Per Minute

Barometric Pressure

Pressure Trend

Altitude

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 17:09:49 (ZULU)

Wind meters are good. At telling you what the wind is doing where you are sitting. You still have to read the mirage.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 19:06:13 (ZULU)

Rod: That Kestrel should work; Mine has for, what, 15 years?

Do you need all those functions? All that stuff is expensive and the more junk on a tool, the more likely you are to break it.

For me, a Kestrel is a big help in training.

CDC'
Friday, May 2, 2008, at 21:05:19 (ZULU)

If I was going to buy another wind meter I would get one that will give you the adjusted density altitude.

This gives you an idea of what your bullet thinks the air is that its flying through. You may be at 1500ft but because of temp, humidity and such the adjusted altitude may be 4000ft. So in reality you may shoot higher than expected.

I think this is an overlooked piece of data in longrange shooting. I know with my race car it sure makes a difference. I never leave 1500ft elevation but many times my car thinks its running in 5500ft air. If it affects my car it may also affect my bullets flying through the same air. Just a thought to kick around.

Pat
Friday, May 2, 2008, at 21:26:29 (ZULU)

CDC:

Valid question. If I want to predict first-shot POI based on current conditions, I'll presumably need:

- Range

- Wind

- Mirage details

- Baro Pressure

- Temperature

- Relative humidity

Wind (of course) is not just at the shooter's location but at all locations between there and the intended target :-(

The Kestrel 2500 permits measuring Wind, Baro Pressure and Temperature. The most fragile function in a Kestrel is wind measurements, which will be the case for any of models. The baro pressure and temperature datum points are not as critical, but it would seem to me that rather than buying the cheap model and then later upgrading, it would make more sense to spend a bit more to begin with, and not trying to sell a used basic model. Those functions would be less fragile, so buying them in advance of compelling need would seem to be an acceptable trade-off.

I'll return to my original question :-) Which current Kestrel model would you recommend? The one that just measures the wind?

Kestrel 1000 Measures

Current Wind Speed

Average Wind Speed

Maximum Wind Gust

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 21:27:43 (ZULU)

Pat:

The Kestrel 4000 is the floor unit for density altitude function. It was my understanding that the baro+altitude+temperature measurement (available on the K2500) could also be used for the same calculation, just not as conveniently packaged. Did I miss understand? (K2500 has no humidity sensor, K4000 does).

Or is your point that the calculation is sufficiently complex that having it automated/packaged is a compelling improvement on the paper-based alternative without access to a nice computer program? (More gear to lug in the field :-(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_altitude

The K4000 has a minor power advantage, it runs on 2xAAA, whereas the lower models run on a CR2032. I already have other uses for CR2032 batts, so that's not a big issue.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 21:40:38 (ZULU)

Rod,

"Snow Temperature" ??

Duman
Friday, May 2, 2008, at 22:14:02 (ZULU)

If you're sick of little girls dressed like whores, click my name. I need to order a pallet of these books to pass out to strangers.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 22:35:22 (ZULU)

Duman:

I was just quoting the reseller's web page.

Are you questioning what *is* snow, or just how useful it is to measure it's temperature? {wide grin}

My take is that it's enumerated to increment the feature count for marketing purposes. Measuring the temperature of *snow* is pretty low on my list, even if I'm hip deep in the stuff. (Which I have been once or twice.) Inspired me to get a pair of snowshoes. We only rarely retain *large* accumulations of snow around here.

"Thermometers 101" for the imagination challenged?

They could have also listed alcoholic spirits temperature (measurement) as a feature, a potentially much more useful field function :-)

"I say Jeeves, take this Pilsner back - my Kestrel registers it as being too warm..."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 23:24:49 (ZULU)

ICAO Density Altitude chart/table

http://demigodllc.com/icao.pdf

Windmeters and Environmental Stations for Tactical Shooting

http://demigodllc.com/articles/windmeters-for-tactical-shooting/

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 00:07:15 (ZULU)

re: density altitude

Ok, I'm convinced. (Great articles by Zak Smith.)

http://demigodllc.com/articles.php

My summary-

(a) Work up actual zeros for a particular measured density altitude

(b) feed into a ballistics program.

(d) Use meter to read density altitude at selected shooting location

(e) Pick card with closest density altitude for trajectory adjustments lookup

Using density altitude means you only have to record and deal with a single number to describe environmental ambient conditions (pressure/altitude, temperature and relative humidity). Faster, less chance of error, minimal field calculations.

n.b. 20 degree F temperature change is around 1000' of density altitude adjustment.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 00:30:31 (ZULU)

For shooting, you only want:

Local barometric pressure.

Temperature.

Wind speed and direction.

And that's it - humidity has such a little effect on bullet travel that it is not part of the equation... however, if you are an AROC, then enter it and be happy ;)

"Altitude" has no bearing, as it is taken care of by the true, local barometric pressure.

If you are using a software program that requires you to enter "altitude" then ALWAYS enter "0 feet", and then enter the true Baro Pressure from your Kestral.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 00:39:42 (ZULU)

Rod,

Yep. Know what snow is. :8-p It was 80F here on Wednesday, and snowed yesterday. It's currently in the mid-30's and howling like a banshee.

It's been a loooong time since I've been hip-deep in snow. I was in BFE Quebec, somewhere's around Mont Tremblont, decided to take a shortcut from the road to the cabin. Big mistake.

Of course, I had plenty of antifreeze in my blood, so no worries there....

Duman
Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 01:13:20 (ZULU)

One problem with using density altitude - which is simply a function of atmospheric pressure (station pressure), temperature, and moisture in the air - is that there are multiple combinations of those factors which will give you the same density altitude. However, muzzle velocity is also a function of temperature, to a degree which depends on the powder in use.

Using ballistic tables based on D.A. is a useful backup to a field PDA running a good ballistic program - but for maximum accuracy at long distances, the PDA & program are a more accurate solution under many conditions.

For an explanation of the difference between barometric pressure and station pressure, click on my name.

Lindy
On the Road in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 02:19:57 (ZULU)

Possible Darwin award nominee tries to salvage brass from WWI cannon round, detonating it. Click my name.

Honest(?) Politician?:http://www.katu.com/news/18471129.html

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:47:05 (ZULU)

Clicky. Funny.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks, - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 08:54:40 (ZULU)

Click if you're an angry white man, and sick of the shit we have for a government.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 09:24:59 (ZULU)

Lindy...

WHAT???

Trav...

I love it when you have insomnia :) :) :)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 13:44:04 (ZULU)

'Lito:

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

You can have the same density altitude at different temperatures, as the atmospheric pressure varies, especially as it varies at different geophysical altitudes.

However, muzzle velocity also varies with temperature.

If you use only the density altitude in your ballistic calculation, and ignore the change in muzzle velocity with temperature, you are likely to have errors at long distances.

Density altitude is touted - by some - as a way to have a single ballistic table which works under any conditions. It doesn't, unless you also take variation in muzzle velocity into account.

Lindy
On the road somewhere in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 20:11:47 (ZULU)

re: exterior ballistics

I'm using Varget (in part) for my long range loads since it is supposed to have minimal temperature co-efficient.

Some of the other Hodgdon Extreme series powders have similar associated claims.

Has anyone done comparative testing of actual effect temperature has on loadings using those powders?

(I know I can do my own testing, just curious if any of you folks had already made some measurements.)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 21:28:07 (ZULU)

Lindy...

OK.

Just didn't sound clear - kinda confusilated.

The summery is - ONLY the local "uncorrected" baro, the temperature (and maybe the humidity if you are anal) count - whether you are in the flat lands or the mountains is of no matter...

... and you need to know your muzzle velocity, and any changes that happen due to temperature of the ammo (keep it in your jacket or cooler ;) )

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 21:46:52 (ZULU)

'Lito: Roger that. It may be, though, that chamber temperature is as important a factor as powder temperature. See:

http://shootingsoftware.com/ftp/Pressure%20Factors.pdf

Rod: the last time I checked my Varget .308 load was a couple of years ago. The load was 44.6 grains in a Lapua case with a Federal 210M primer pushing a 175 SMK. The muzzle velocity variation in that load was around 0.6 feet per second per degree Fehrenheit.

That's a small enough variation that it can be safely ignored, though it's factored into my ballistic software anyway.

Powders vary quite a bit. I tested a lot of .300 Win Mag, the military A191 load, which varied around 5 fps/degree - which is a lot of variation in an already hot load.

That's a variation one shouldn't ignore.

Lindy
On the road in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 22:41:44 (ZULU)

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