Sniper Country Duty Roster

May 2008

This evening my daughter asked me if I wanted her to defecate the dishes.

That makes it all worthwhile.

Joe: "...i did equally dumb things early on,..."

I'm still doing them.

"They say you live and you learn, but the lessons just go on and on."_____Clint Black

CDC'
Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 02:09:20 (ZULU)

Please vote this gun issue question with USA Today. It will only take a few seconds of your time. Then pass the link on to all the pro gun folks you know. Hopefully these results will be published later this month. This upcoming year will become critical for gun owners with the Supreme Court accepting the District of Columbia case against the right for individuals to bear arms.

First - vote on this one. Second - launch it to all the pro-gun folks and have THEM vote - then we will see if the results get published.

To vote in the USA Today poll, click on the link below. Does the Second Amendment give individuals the right to bear arms?

Vote here:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/quickquestion/2007/november/popup5895.htm

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 02:56:48 (ZULU)

Well, now I'm glad I didn't hang my ass out as father of the year in the current discussion. The boy (12) went fishing with the neighbors yesterday, then when he came home, and my wife and I were still gone, he and the idiot neighbor boy decided it would be a good idea to start a small fire in the street! Neighbor kid's dad told them to stop as he was leaving, but when he came home, they were starting a fire in my driveway.

After school, he got to do a pile of dishes and pick up dogshit. He's gonna learn, one way or another.

Sharon, Re: the poll: 97% believe in the right of individuals to keep and bear.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 05:43:59 (ZULU)

Shamelessly stolen from someone that stole it from somewhere else-

"We in Denmark cannot figure out why you are even bothering to hold an election.

On one side, you have a ***** who is a lawyer, married to a lawyer,

and a lawyer who is married to a ***** who is a lawyer.

On the other side, you have a true war hero married to a woman with a

huge chest who owns a beer distributorship.

Is there a contest here?"

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 06:35:16 (ZULU)

I took my shooting chrony brand chronograph to the range the other day and it decided to go completely haywire on me, resulting in a lost day on load development. I need to buy a new one and recall Lito saying good things about the CED unit... I'd appreciate any input on recent experiences with currently manufactured units...good, bad or other. The one concern I have with the CED from the picture and description is that the shooting lane looks kinda small...with the offset from a scope, I'd be concerned with shooting the unit accidentally.

medicjim
Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 14:23:59 (ZULU)

Medic...

The CED shooting space is like the Oehler - no problems.

I like it more and more - will probably get another this summer.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 18:21:37 (ZULU)

JoeM: With the new schedule, will you join Bravo and me at Badlands?

re: Lying, Bill Cosby told a story during an interview. His son lied to his mom, while Bill was working. Bill gets home, takes the boy out back, smacks him on the butt three times, then tells the boy "OK, that's all."

The boy turns to leave, and Bill smacks him on the butt one more time. With tears in his eyes, the boy says "I thought you said you were done."

Bill says, "I lied."

CDC': Defecate the dishes? LOL!

Wasn't it Mark Twain who said, "When I was 14, I thought my dad was dumb. When I reached 21, I was amazed at how much he learned in 7 years."

Lito: RE: CED chrono, what flavor PC are you running it with? Any compatibiity issues?

Duman
Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 20:03:52 (ZULU)

Scores killed, hundreds wounded in domestic terror attack

BOSTON – Police and National Guard units seeking to confiscate a

cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed Sunday be

elements of a para-military right wing extremist faction.

Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and

more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to

withdraw. Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas

Gage declared that the extremist militia faction has citizens who

have links to the radical right wing tax protest movement. Gage

blamed the militia for recent incidents of vandalism directed against

internal revenue offices.

The governor who described the group's organizers as "terrorists" ,

issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any

individual who has interfered with the governments efforts to secure

law and order. The law enforcement team augmented by elements of the

National Guard, were sent to raid a militia arsenal after widespread

refusal of right wing extremists to turn over recently outlawed

assault weapons. This decision followed a meeting in early July

between government and law enforcement which authorized the

confiscation of the illegal arms, known as the weapons of choice

among criminals and militias.

One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed

out "that none of these people would have been killed had right wing

extremist obeyed the law and turned over the weapons voluntarily" .

Police and government forces initially succeeded in confiscating a

large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops

attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with

resistance from heavily armed militia extremist who had been tipped

off regarding the government's plans.

During a tense stand-off in Lexington 's town park, National Guard

Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered

the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse

was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the

right wing extremist. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing

exchange.

Ironically, the local citizens blamed the government forces rather

than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be

restored, heavily armed militia groups from surrounding areas had

descended upon the police and guard units. Colonel Smith finding his

forces over matched by militia mobs, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national

joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor

has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and

leading the attack against the government. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere,

and John Hancock, who have been identified as ":ringleaders" of the

extremist militia faction remain at large.

( The American Revolution begins, as reported by Associated Press)

(Compiled by Charles Norton and New American Magazine.)

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 13:57:43 (ZULU)

Duman...

I did run it with Mac OS-8 and a laptop.

But I'm hopin' to "find" a used PC. The software for the PC has no issues.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 14:30:53 (ZULU)

re: wind/enviro instruments

Any concensus on wind/enviro measurments tools for field usage?

I'm kind of leaning towards the Kestrel 2500NV. (Not a big premium for the NV variant, and green is more tacticool than orange :-)

I know it's not the only approach to such matters, but it does help with the learning curve. Having barometric measurment capability is helpful, and the only real alternative to that is not field-expedient.

The Kestrel 2500 accurately measures:

Wind Chill

Air, Water, and Snow Temperature

Displayed in Fahrenheit or Celsius w/ accuracy of +/-1°

Current, Average, and Maximum Wind Speed

Wind Speeds displayed in: Beaufort Wind Scale; Knots; MPH; KPH; or Feet Per Minute

Barometric Pressure

Pressure Trend

Altitude

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 17:09:49 (ZULU)

Wind meters are good. At telling you what the wind is doing where you are sitting. You still have to read the mirage.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 19:06:13 (ZULU)

Rod: That Kestrel should work; Mine has for, what, 15 years?

Do you need all those functions? All that stuff is expensive and the more junk on a tool, the more likely you are to break it.

For me, a Kestrel is a big help in training.

CDC'
Friday, May 2, 2008, at 21:05:19 (ZULU)

If I was going to buy another wind meter I would get one that will give you the adjusted density altitude.

This gives you an idea of what your bullet thinks the air is that its flying through. You may be at 1500ft but because of temp, humidity and such the adjusted altitude may be 4000ft. So in reality you may shoot higher than expected.

I think this is an overlooked piece of data in longrange shooting. I know with my race car it sure makes a difference. I never leave 1500ft elevation but many times my car thinks its running in 5500ft air. If it affects my car it may also affect my bullets flying through the same air. Just a thought to kick around.

Pat
Friday, May 2, 2008, at 21:26:29 (ZULU)

CDC:

Valid question. If I want to predict first-shot POI based on current conditions, I'll presumably need:

- Range

- Wind

- Mirage details

- Baro Pressure

- Temperature

- Relative humidity

Wind (of course) is not just at the shooter's location but at all locations between there and the intended target :-(

The Kestrel 2500 permits measuring Wind, Baro Pressure and Temperature. The most fragile function in a Kestrel is wind measurements, which will be the case for any of models. The baro pressure and temperature datum points are not as critical, but it would seem to me that rather than buying the cheap model and then later upgrading, it would make more sense to spend a bit more to begin with, and not trying to sell a used basic model. Those functions would be less fragile, so buying them in advance of compelling need would seem to be an acceptable trade-off.

I'll return to my original question :-) Which current Kestrel model would you recommend? The one that just measures the wind?

Kestrel 1000 Measures

Current Wind Speed

Average Wind Speed

Maximum Wind Gust

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 21:27:43 (ZULU)

Pat:

The Kestrel 4000 is the floor unit for density altitude function. It was my understanding that the baro+altitude+temperature measurement (available on the K2500) could also be used for the same calculation, just not as conveniently packaged. Did I miss understand? (K2500 has no humidity sensor, K4000 does).

Or is your point that the calculation is sufficiently complex that having it automated/packaged is a compelling improvement on the paper-based alternative without access to a nice computer program? (More gear to lug in the field :-(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_altitude

The K4000 has a minor power advantage, it runs on 2xAAA, whereas the lower models run on a CR2032. I already have other uses for CR2032 batts, so that's not a big issue.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 21:40:38 (ZULU)

Rod,

"Snow Temperature" ??

Duman
Friday, May 2, 2008, at 22:14:02 (ZULU)

If you're sick of little girls dressed like whores, click my name. I need to order a pallet of these books to pass out to strangers.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 22:35:22 (ZULU)

Duman:

I was just quoting the reseller's web page.

Are you questioning what *is* snow, or just how useful it is to measure it's temperature? {wide grin}

My take is that it's enumerated to increment the feature count for marketing purposes. Measuring the temperature of *snow* is pretty low on my list, even if I'm hip deep in the stuff. (Which I have been once or twice.) Inspired me to get a pair of snowshoes. We only rarely retain *large* accumulations of snow around here.

"Thermometers 101" for the imagination challenged?

They could have also listed alcoholic spirits temperature (measurement) as a feature, a potentially much more useful field function :-)

"I say Jeeves, take this Pilsner back - my Kestrel registers it as being too warm..."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 2, 2008, at 23:24:49 (ZULU)

ICAO Density Altitude chart/table

http://demigodllc.com/icao.pdf

Windmeters and Environmental Stations for Tactical Shooting

http://demigodllc.com/articles/windmeters-for-tactical-shooting/

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 00:07:15 (ZULU)

re: density altitude

Ok, I'm convinced. (Great articles by Zak Smith.)

http://demigodllc.com/articles.php

My summary-

(a) Work up actual zeros for a particular measured density altitude

(b) feed into a ballistics program.

(d) Use meter to read density altitude at selected shooting location

(e) Pick card with closest density altitude for trajectory adjustments lookup

Using density altitude means you only have to record and deal with a single number to describe environmental ambient conditions (pressure/altitude, temperature and relative humidity). Faster, less chance of error, minimal field calculations.

n.b. 20 degree F temperature change is around 1000' of density altitude adjustment.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 00:30:31 (ZULU)

For shooting, you only want:

Local barometric pressure.

Temperature.

Wind speed and direction.

And that's it - humidity has such a little effect on bullet travel that it is not part of the equation... however, if you are an AROC, then enter it and be happy ;)

"Altitude" has no bearing, as it is taken care of by the true, local barometric pressure.

If you are using a software program that requires you to enter "altitude" then ALWAYS enter "0 feet", and then enter the true Baro Pressure from your Kestral.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 00:39:42 (ZULU)

Rod,

Yep. Know what snow is. :8-p It was 80F here on Wednesday, and snowed yesterday. It's currently in the mid-30's and howling like a banshee.

It's been a loooong time since I've been hip-deep in snow. I was in BFE Quebec, somewhere's around Mont Tremblont, decided to take a shortcut from the road to the cabin. Big mistake.

Of course, I had plenty of antifreeze in my blood, so no worries there....

Duman
Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 01:13:20 (ZULU)

One problem with using density altitude - which is simply a function of atmospheric pressure (station pressure), temperature, and moisture in the air - is that there are multiple combinations of those factors which will give you the same density altitude. However, muzzle velocity is also a function of temperature, to a degree which depends on the powder in use.

Using ballistic tables based on D.A. is a useful backup to a field PDA running a good ballistic program - but for maximum accuracy at long distances, the PDA & program are a more accurate solution under many conditions.

For an explanation of the difference between barometric pressure and station pressure, click on my name.

Lindy
On the Road in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 02:19:57 (ZULU)

Possible Darwin award nominee tries to salvage brass from WWI cannon round, detonating it. Click my name.

Honest(?) Politician?:http://www.katu.com/news/18471129.html

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:47:05 (ZULU)

Clicky. Funny.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks, - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 08:54:40 (ZULU)

Click if you're an angry white man, and sick of the shit we have for a government.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 09:24:59 (ZULU)

Lindy...

WHAT???

Trav...

I love it when you have insomnia :) :) :)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 13:44:04 (ZULU)

'Lito:

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

You can have the same density altitude at different temperatures, as the atmospheric pressure varies, especially as it varies at different geophysical altitudes.

However, muzzle velocity also varies with temperature.

If you use only the density altitude in your ballistic calculation, and ignore the change in muzzle velocity with temperature, you are likely to have errors at long distances.

Density altitude is touted - by some - as a way to have a single ballistic table which works under any conditions. It doesn't, unless you also take variation in muzzle velocity into account.

Lindy
On the road somewhere in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 20:11:47 (ZULU)

re: exterior ballistics

I'm using Varget (in part) for my long range loads since it is supposed to have minimal temperature co-efficient.

Some of the other Hodgdon Extreme series powders have similar associated claims.

Has anyone done comparative testing of actual effect temperature has on loadings using those powders?

(I know I can do my own testing, just curious if any of you folks had already made some measurements.)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 21:28:07 (ZULU)

Lindy...

OK.

Just didn't sound clear - kinda confusilated.

The summery is - ONLY the local "uncorrected" baro, the temperature (and maybe the humidity if you are anal) count - whether you are in the flat lands or the mountains is of no matter...

... and you need to know your muzzle velocity, and any changes that happen due to temperature of the ammo (keep it in your jacket or cooler ;) )

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 21:46:52 (ZULU)

'Lito: Roger that. It may be, though, that chamber temperature is as important a factor as powder temperature. See:

http://shootingsoftware.com/ftp/Pressure%20Factors.pdf

Rod: the last time I checked my Varget .308 load was a couple of years ago. The load was 44.6 grains in a Lapua case with a Federal 210M primer pushing a 175 SMK. The muzzle velocity variation in that load was around 0.6 feet per second per degree Fehrenheit.

That's a small enough variation that it can be safely ignored, though it's factored into my ballistic software anyway.

Powders vary quite a bit. I tested a lot of .300 Win Mag, the military A191 load, which varied around 5 fps/degree - which is a lot of variation in an already hot load.

That's a variation one shouldn't ignore.

Lindy
On the road in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 22:41:44 (ZULU)

Rod: During this night's joyous insomnia session, I scrolled down and found your question. I wasn't ignoring it. I'll have a closer look at this thread when - if ever - I'm coherent.

CDC'
Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 11:37:14 (ZULU)

Hey Ya'll,

At the risk of making this place 'politics country'... here's another little different take on the scotus case being an individual 'right'.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin79.htm

Stay safe

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 16:28:35 (ZULU)

Lindy...

The issue of chamber (barrel) temperature having an effect on velocity is a theoretical one because of the following. It takes several minutes to raise the temperature of the powder inside of the case. This is due to the fact that, first, powder is a piss-poor conductor of heat, and second, the case does not actually touch the chamber all over - contact with the chamber walls is at the bottom (6:00 o'clock) position.

But consider the practical matters... someone that heats up a barrel is shooting fast - like at match, a PD shoot, or in combat.

Putting combat aside. If they are shooting fast, then the cases aren't in the chamber long enough to get hot :((

In the link, the comparison was between 45 and 95 degrees - that's a large spread, for either a shooter at a match or a dog shoot.

So I think, while it is "interesting", it's application is limited.

At most all shooting endeavors that require long range accuracy AND rapid fire, it will be the ambient temperature of the cartridge that will rule the situation.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 4, 2008, at 17:28:28 (ZULU)

re: chambers heating rifle cartridges in bolt guns

I've seen it mentioned that during a forced pause at a match that it's worth extracting and putting aside a chambered round to avoid it heating up any differently that it's siblings. Makes sense to me - keeping all variables as close as possible is a "good thing" ;-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 5, 2008, at 00:23:06 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Just received this from The Nat'l Shooting Sports Foundation:

N.Y. STATE SENATOR'S POLL ON MICROSTAMPING . . . New York State Sen. Dale Volker's Web site is hosting a poll concerning firearms microstamping, legislation that would require manufacturers to micro laser engrave, in two separate locations, the gun's make, model and serial number so, in theory, that information would be imprinted on any cartridge casing expelled from the firearm. NSSF is encouraging Bullet Points readers to visit the Web site and voice their opposition to microstamping legislation by voting "NO." Learn more about the dangers of firearms microstamping legislation at:

http://nssf.org/media/FactSheets/Microstamping.cfm

If I did it right you can click on my name or else go here:

http://www.senatorvolker.com/59/default.aspx

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, May 5, 2008, at 23:01:32 (ZULU)

Mr. Lito,

Do you or have you had any contact with the Chris Thomas at Premier? With your relationship with them in the past I did'nt know if you would have any info or insight into their new scope production? I'm sure it will be more than capable!

Travis,

Your comment on young girls and their "worldly attire" is noted, but just to give you some hope there are still a remnent of godly Apostolic young ladies who hold holiness to a high standard.

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 02:39:26 (ZULU)

Scott,

I'm afraid you might have mistaken me. Lookin' good ain't a sin. I was once engaged to a Mormon girl who was SMOKING HOT, but wouldn't wear anything but scrubs and sweats outside the house because her culture insisted that she was insiting men toward sinful thoughts if she looked good. Her God given beauty was nothing to be embarassed of. That was bullshit.

I hate to see women completely covered year round. It just bugs the shit out of me when folks encourage their daughters to grow up too fast.

We all tell our kids to drive in a safe and sane manner. If you allow them to "dress" their car with a pair of 650 CFM Holleys, Hooker headers, a nitrous setup and slicks, you kinda have to expect them to start racing before they're ready. If you allow your little girl to dress like a 23 year old who's lookin' for a man, don't be surprised if she's lookin' for a man.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 11:35:10 (ZULU)

Reuters:

Al Qaeda behind attack on Karzai, spy chief says

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USISL13319720080504

Sun May 4, 2008 12:44pm EDT

By Sayed Salahuddin

KABUL (Reuters) - Al Qaeda in Pakistan was behind last week's assassination attempt on Afghan President Hamid Karzai, Afghanistan's intelligence chief said on Sunday.

The head of Afghanistan's National Directorate of Security, Amrullah Saleh, said foreign governments should put pressure on Pakistan to destroy militant bases within its borders.

Taliban gunmen fired rocket-propelled grenades and small arms at a state parade last Sunday, sending Karzai, his cabinet and military top brass as well as foreign diplomats diving for cover.

Three people were shot dead before Afghan troops killed three Taliban attackers.

Investigations by Afghan security forces showed that at least two officials from the defense and interior ministries were involved in the attack, Saleh said. The officials suspected of involvement have been arrested in recent days.

But he added they had links with al Qaeda in Miramshah, Pakistan's tribal region near the border with Afghanistan, and branded the network the mastermind of the attack, the most brazen by the Taliban since their ouster in 2001.

"Al Qaeda's role and involvement in the attack is very clear," Saleh told a news conference.

"They have bases (in Pakistan). They are supplied financially and logistically. They receive very sophisticated training ... We have always said that pressure on their bases, combined with our intelligence can destroy them," he added.

He said with regret there was "little and sometimes no pressure" on the militants training bases, indirectly referring to Pakistan.

While the Taliban have carried out sporadic suicide bombings in Kabul before, last week's attack, together with a guerrilla-style assault on a five-star hotel in the capital in January, indicate a more sophisticated mode of attack.

The Taliban have vowed to target Kabul this year as part of their campaign to overthrow Karzai's government and drive out the more than 55,000 foreign troops stationed in the country.

Pakistan itself which has seen attacks by militants over the past year says it does all it can to crush al Qaeda and other militants who fled there after the U.S.-led invasion that toppled Taliban's government in Afghanistan in 2001.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 16:37:00 (ZULU)

Doc: Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "micro-stamping" a raised area on the breach that, theoretically, imprints data on the fired case? If so, and if widely known, what would prevent a bad guy from filing off the offending protusion? And outta curiosity, how many guns are in existance right this minute--without microstamps?

I probably outta click your link and learn more. I hear this debate on the periphery, assume facts not in evidence, and form my opinion without any more efforts. Opinion: Another hare-brained idea from the folks who brought us the miracle investment opportunity known as social security. Yihaa.

The economy is steadying up; but the underlying problems still exist. For now, holders of US debt have decided that action to shore up the greenback is smarter than an all out dumping. But the facts remain that debt is out there in mountains; we are writing more bad checks as we move forward, and the old 1-yr treasury is back in an attempt to sell our red ink (longer term bonds sat on the shelf, ignored by the market). In other words, our efforts thus far are solely delaying actions--and the delay is down to 12 months at a time:))

There is another theory: If we are in debt to the world for a large fraction of GDP, they own us. If we are in debt for a sizeable chunk of the entire market value of world trade, we kinda own them. That's a twist on a (almost) famous quote...

Joe M
Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 19:32:31 (ZULU)

Joe M...

>"Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "micro-stamping" a raised area on the breach that, theoretically, imprints data on the fired case? If so, and if widely known, what would prevent a bad guy from filing off the offending protrusion?"<

Yup...

The only two places where mocrostamping would work in on the bolt face and the chamber walls. Either place is easy to polish with #800 carbide paper and some oil - mirror smooth in 5 minutes.

I have polished the bolt face on several on my rifles, because the tool marks made it hard to read primer signs... you can comb your hair in the fired primers.

Most states are looking at micro stamping bullets instead of guns, because it is so easy to file off the micro stuff.

>"And outta curiosity, how many guns are in existance right this minute--without microstamps? "<

About 600,000,000 firearms...

They would NEVER be able to keep up with the paperwork - to list the owners of bullets, by their serial numbers for 4 to 5 BILLION bullets a year... and then there are those pesky handloaders, and you can't make them do diddley squat!

And the bullet casters, there are a bunch of bums if I ever saw them - they will sit there all night putting 12 digit (X00,000,000,000) micro numbers on their bullets - sure they will...

... Hmmm and the list gets longer and longer.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, at 23:21:09 (ZULU)

Leetle Pablo: When have you seen a gun bill fail simply because it's stupid?

CDC'
Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 00:24:27 (ZULU)

CDC....In legislation? Not many. In practice, most of them.

As far as wimmen being covered up year 'round, hey, welcome to Afghanistan. Buncha little, blue toadstools running around. Little drogue-chutes running around with shoes under them. Funny as hell.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 02:47:56 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

As 'lito so aptly put it "yup". Another way is to engrave the info on the point of the firing pin so it is transferred to the primer when the round is fired. This can also be removed by polishing. The liberal loonies sure come up with some "great" ideas.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 03:28:19 (ZULU)

The antis need to send delegates to any junior high shop class in the country, just so they can see how a bunch of 13-14 year olds can defeat their measures in under 15 minutes, including 5 minutes thinking about titties.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 06:11:54 (ZULU)

5 minutes? Please. You've forgotten what it's like to be 13. They'll think about tatas the entire 15 minutes, while polishing the pin.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 08:42:39 (ZULU)

Titties,Titties ?? Where ??

UnPat

UnPat
Wi., USA - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 08:59:56 (ZULU)

Titties???

No matter what the subject, when all is said and done, we get back to what's important!

In the last few months, a bill for ammo identification has popped up in a dozen states all over the country (at the same time)...

... I figured that it was "Sarah & Friends Co." at work, cuz the wording of the bills was the same.

But it turns out that a company named "Ammunition Accountably" has just gotten the patents for ID'ing bullets, cases, and yo' momma!.. and I guess they think they can make a killing with royalties on each bullet so numbered, and each firearm so numbered.

God, the world's filled with whores...

... without titties (see I told you it always gets back to "you know what" :)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 14:05:04 (ZULU)

Yet another idiot who is "the ONLY man in the room qualified to operate a Glock .40."

Click. What a dumbshit. You might wanna show this and the video of the guy in dreadlocks to the next idiot that tells you about how cops know all about guns.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 23:56:35 (ZULU)

I've got a new Savage FP-10 Chote in .308 with a 26 inch bbl. I was wondering if anyone has used the David Tubb's loaded Final Finish ammunition to break in a new bbl? If so what do you think about the results? Also would it be ok to use surplus FMJ ammo to break the barrel in instead of the Federal 168 gr. match ammo that I am going to use in this rifle ( same ammo that I use in my FAL and it shoots great)?

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 00:47:17 (ZULU)

You are going to get some different opinions regarding the Tubb's product. The consensus is that for some barrels it may make a difference, but any abrasive product removes metal and that's not a good thing. Like anything in life, it's a compromise. You may get a smoother finish in the tube, but you will remove material and you can't put it back in! There is no gaurantee it will reduce your groups. If it DOESN'T make your groups smaller, you removed material for nothing.

The vast majority of Savages have excellent barrels, some of the best available on a factory rifle. It shouldn't need to be firelapped to have a good finish.

I tried JBs bore paste on my used 110FP not long after I picked it up and got some loads dialed in. My groups opened up to over an inch until I got +/- 100 rounds down the tube and then the groups settled back in, with no overall improvement.

Every rifle is a little different, but I think the bottom line is that you should go minimal.....break it in right and test it. If it doesn't shoot well then start looking at options to tweak it.

As far as break in, plain old ball ammo will work just fine. With a proper break in, your Savage should have excellent accuracy.

My opinion only, YMMV, etc. Good luck!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 02:12:10 (ZULU)

Click if you're veteran, or know one who wants to own their own business. I might just have to start ordering from Little Ceasar's.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 02:59:13 (ZULU)

Police Chief Dave Hansen is a total lug nut. He's not worthy of being called a tool. Just a lug nut. Sheesh!

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 05:06:11 (ZULU)

Danial...

Don't waste your time with "breaking in a barrel", you cannot "break in" hard steel with soft copper.

... and never shoot a bullet coated with grinding compound down your barrel. That should be obvious, no matter what the sales hustlers say.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 17:40:35 (ZULU)

I am generally "for" the goals of the patriot act that allow basic intel ops against enemies we are engaged in armed conflict with. Ultra, Jap codes comes to mind---and stateless enemies need the same directed efforts. Common sense, right? But this particular provision of the patriot act is troubling. Click.

I've been in the financial pages too much--I should really read actual legislation from time to time:))

(hey--time is not one of my problems)

Joe M
Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 17:41:58 (ZULU)

"New Speak" is here. George Orwell, where are you now that we REALLY NEED YOU???

From a US Optics add...

>"A large EREK knob (Erector Repositioning Elevation Knob) that is low profile and has a large diameter makes elevation adjustments quick and easy,"<

OK, I give up!! Bartender, I'll take two DDR&LJs please ;)

Even the old man, "Doctor" JW is turning over in his grave :((((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 20:02:18 (ZULU)

Thank all of you that responded to my questions about Tubb's Final Finish. I've decided to shoot the barrel in the old way (shoot and clean, shoot and clean...) and see what kind of results this produces. Thanks again, Daniel M. Hallman

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United states - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 21:27:10 (ZULU)

Click. I can't fucking believe this.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 22:42:24 (ZULU)

OK, I've been checking out the archived forums on breaking in a new barrel and the most current info is from 1999. I use a bore guide and a one piece carbon fiber rod with a swivel handle so pulling brushes and swabs back thru allow them to follow the rifleing in the correct direction. The solvents I normally use are Hoppes Bench Rest, Shooters Choice, Sweets 7.62 and JB's Shooters paste. I always dry patch until dry between solvents and follow up after the JB's with a final run of the Hoppes B.R. and finish off by dry patching till the patches come out clean. If the rifle isn't going to be shot soon I'll run a couple of patches with gun oil thru the bore but I always dry patch this out and check the chamber for residue before shooting. Now for the questions, do I need to use a chamber brush like the Chamber Maid since I'm using a bore guide while cleaning (this is pertaining to a bolt action)? Also since a lot of time has passed since 1999 has anyone came up with better solvents and procedures for shooting in a new barrel? I've got a new Savage FP-10 Choat in .308 that needs to be broken in and even though it's not a "high end" rifle I'd really like to break it in properly. Appreciate any info on this, it's getting close to good shooting weather here in Central West Texas ( this means that the wind is only going to be 20 to 30 mph,God I miss East Texas where the trees cut out most of the wind!!) Daniel M. Hallman

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United States - Thursday, May 8, 2008, at 23:19:49 (ZULU)

Daniel:

Be careful when using different metal solvents. Drying the bore between is good, but you might still have residues that could interact.

A bore guide keeps most of the contamination out of the chamber, but cleaning the chamber some after finishing with the bore guide is a good idea. In .308 Win I use .50 cal nylon brushes to help with cleaning the chamber. Price is right, you can get 12 packs from Brownells and other sources.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 02:30:56 (ZULU)

Daniel...

Your questions are really more suited to "http://www.benchrest.com/". They love questions like these - they will give you 41 pages of opinions on how to clean your riffle and no two will be the same!!

You are being absolutely anal about a fairly simple chore - about as complicated as doing the dishes.

I can't believe that you are using FOUR cleaners.

Bartender, I need another DDR&LJ!!

Daniel - it's a SAVAGE... not some $6,500 1,000yd benchrest rifle. Get it into perspective.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 02:50:37 (ZULU)

When I buy a new rifle, I usually fire the first five or so rounds, then run a hoppes patch followed by a dry patch... I then continue my shooting for the day with that rifle. Break in is then complete <g>

When I get home, I run several patches of hoppes, then one with isopropyl alcohol, then a dry patch. I use an old bore brush to run the patches... pulling them with a coated rod from breach to muzzle. The last patch out is still showing some carbon...I just don't spend enough time cleaning to get the patches coming out clean.

Every ten or so trips to the range... I'll plug the barrel and let some hoppes soak for a couple hours. I then clean normally.

It seams to work for me and leaves me lots of time to obsess on other things. Learned it all on the roster...smart fellers those guys.

medicjim
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 03:23:06 (ZULU)

Last night I posted the following notes, fourty years in the making. They were written and posted about a year ago. Since they are unedited and rough, I took the post down. My idea was to clean them up, post them again then ask Ranger Rick, Mike Miller and anyone else with constructive input to review and improve them.

If anybody has any comments on those two long shooting posts, please post them. You guys know a lot about this stuff.

I'm not lecturing anyone here. Very little of this is mine. Most was picked up from books, trainers, magazines and here. Rick would recognize his words in some of it.

Most of this sounds categorical and absolute. It isn't. It is written this way for brevity. Disagreement or comment is welcome.

I got a couple of e-mails requesting that the notes be posted ASAP. I'm cleaning them up a little at a time.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When in shooting position I follow this checklist:

Uniform pressure at every point the rifle contacts the shooter or supports such as the ground or sandbags.

Zero cant.

Natural point of aim coincident with desired point of impact.

Crosshairs oscillating between 6:00 and 12:00, with 6:00 being point of aim.

Mentally isolate crosshair/POA picture and pad of right index fingertip. Feel the fingertip on the trigger. You are conscious of only your crosshair/POA picture and your fingertip on the trigger.

Release as much air as wants to go.

Desired sight picture causes SECOND JOINT in right index finger to HINGE gently but decisively to push the button STRAIGHT BACK.

Consciously see the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin.

Forward tension on the bipod. My half-baked theory is that a lot of long range horizontal dispersion blamed on missed wind calls aren't due to missed wind calls at all. The problem is rifle cant.

"Uniform pressure at every point the rifle contacts the shooter or supports such as the ground or sandbags."

Your body should be directly behind the rifle. Butt of rifle pulled into shoulder by large muscles in back. Don't pull hard enough to introduce any muscular strain. It's important to use the large back muscles because the harder a muscle works, the more it induces oscillation. Oscillation=wobble. Large muscles strain less than small muscles. The rifle is not gripped by the right hand. The three fingers not pulling the trigger are curled but do not grip the rifle. If you grip, those three fingers move sympathetically as the trigger is pressed. Also, if you grip the rifle, the small muscles in the forearm strain. Muscular strain introduces oscillation.

I'm familiar with two cases for the use of the left hand in the bipod prone position. One is the "beanie baby prone" as shown to me by Mike Miller. The other is the shooting glove technique described on this board by Ranger Rick. Rick's instructions would be worth looking up if anybody is actually reading this and is interested.

The right (duh) cheek is placed on the comb at the exact same place every time. The muscles in the back of the neck are relaxed to allow the weight of the shooter's head to completely rest on the rifle. This does three (maybe) important things; It increases the effective weight of the rifle thus reduces recoil A LOT, it keeps the rifle from getting a running start before it whacks you in the face and it makes the effective weight of the rifle more uniform.

The last two points are worth considering. You don't want the rifle to whack you in the face. If it does, your body will involuntarily learn to anticipate the shot. Anticipation interferes with the fundamentally important later step of "seeing the crosshairs on the target through the fall of the firing pin". The Rooskies did a lot of research in this area.

You want a uniform effective rifle weight (did I just make that up?) because the boolet leaves the riffle while the riffle is in recoil. Different riffle weight=different point in recoil arc at which boolet leaves the barrel = vertical stringing.

The above list included, "Natural point of aim coincident with desired point of impact."

It is important that the shooter not use his right hand to cheat the crosshairs onto the point of aim. One reason is that hand tension introduces oscillation. Another very important reason is that, between the time the sear breaks and the time the bullet leaves the barrel, the recoil moves the barrel toward the natural point of aim. If your natural point of aim and your actual point of aim are the same, no error is introduced.

The shooter checks NPA is by closing his eyes, relaxing his body then opening his eyes. If the crosshairs are still on the desired point of aim, IF THE RIFLE ISN'T CANTED, and if the shooter has done his dry-firing homework, the NPA should be good. The part dry-firing plays will be addressed later.

The next step is, "Crosshairs oscillating between 6:00 and 12:00, with 6:00 being point of aim."

As you breathe, the crosshairs oscillate between 6:00 and 12:00. When your breathing pauses, the oscillations slow dramatically for a couple of seconds until most of the remaining oscillations are caused by the beating of your heart. The crosshairs still move between 6:00 and 12:00 but they move much less and they move very regularly for, oh, 6 to 12 seconds more or less. At very near 6:00 the crosshairs pause. That's where you want your point of aim. After that interval, the tension in your muscles and the body's desire to breathe cause an increase in the amplitude of the oscillations.

So there's your NPA and the interval within which you should press your trigger.

"Mentally isolate crosshair/point of aim (POA) picture and pad of right index fingertip. Feel the fingertip on the trigger."

You see/visualize the exact sight picture that presses the trigger. Feel the right finger tip very lightly touching the trigger.

"Release as much air as wants to go."

Nothing to add.

"Desired sight picture causes second joint in right index finger..."

Repeat; The sight picture presses the trigger. While dry firing, snap every snap like your life depends on it (Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect.) you develop a neural pathway between the correct sight picture and the finger tip. You develop a conditioned response to the right sight picture. When you see what you want to see, your finger moves automatically. Use the conditioned response. For the important shots the temptation is to make a conscious effort. Conscious effort inhibits conditioned response. That is called "choking". If your dry firing was done correctly, you can trust your "Sight picture presses trigger" reflex. If your dry firing was sloppy, you have multiple ways to screw up.

"... to HINGE gently but decisively to push the button STRAIGHT BACK."

As mentioned earlier, the three fingers on the right hand that let the shoulder muscles pull the rifle gently into the shoulder are curled but don't grip. When pressing the trigger, the trigger finger bends ONLY at the second knuckle from the tip. If you hold your right hand in the described position and simulate pressing the trigger you will see that the pad of the fingertip comes back with less lateral motion than if you curl the trigger finger.

"Connsciously see the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin."

The interval between pressing the trigger and the fall of the firing pin is vital and is part of your eye/trigger/follow through conditioned response. While dry firing, practice seeing the correct sight picture through the fall of the firing pin. If the crosshairs move, either your NPA or your trigger press was wrong.

Flinching will screw this up.

We'll define a flinch as any reaction to or anticipation of the trigger press that interferes with the shooter seeing the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin. A flinch is a conditioned response that develops from an unconditioned reflex.

"Press->bang->blink and tighten up

becomes "press->blink and tighten up."

You remember Pavlov's dog. Same deal.

To decondition yourself, you dryfire like your life depends on every shot then shoot a bunch with a wimpy rifle that feels like your real rifle.

"Freezing on the trigger" is a similar problem. That condition is caused by fear of a bad shot. We all know the feeling of putting nine straight in the same hole then freezing on the tenth shot because we don't want to screw up the string. We are making a conscious effort to get the last shot right. But conscious effort inhibits conditioned response. If, during dry firing, we have programmed in the firing sequence we like, we should let it work. The rational brain wants to take over. Fighting the rational brain only makes it worse. Just ignore it. Go into the silence. Be interested in seeing and feeling what you need to see and feel during the firing sequence and let it happen like you have programmed it to happen.

Ommmm....

As you go to sleep, visualize every step in the sequence. If you have trouble visualizing a step, you haven't mastered it.

CDC'
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 04:13:18 (ZULU)

CDC': Thanks for posting that. Much appreciated.

Travis: Duuuuude..... I surf the web... but nowhere NEAR what (or WHERE) you do..

Duman
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 04:54:41 (ZULU)

Lito- The EREK knob works great regardless of how the marketing folks describe it. I've played with a few and I liked them. There were other things I didn't like, but the knob itself was great.

Daniel- Breaking in the barrel is critical for the accuracy potential and lifespan of the barrel. Don't listen to Lito he just talks alot but doesn't know much and we let him hang out here 'cuz he's a nice enough old guy. Here is a video from a registered professional that goes into great detail showing the correct procedure. Pay close attention and listen carefully:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRahHX9Zkg

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 06:16:35 (ZULU)

LOOONG POST - If you have to go to Church on Sunday, don't start reading this on Friday :)

I got out shootin' on Tuesday for the first time this year - weather has been shitty - winter until two weeks ago, and now everything is in bloom, the trees are all full of flowers, and the range was beautiful...

The range is under another "attack" by a homeowner that wants to raise his property values by getting the range closed.

So the asshole puts a hole in the garage, and then puts a 50 cal bullet on the floor and calls the state police to report a stray shot from the range.

Never mind the minor point that the hole is cleanly drilled with a 1/2" drill from Home Depot, and never mind the minor point that the bullet was from mail order or a souvenir shop and had no rifling marks on it and the point is not damaged, and never mind the minor point that there is a small mountain as a backstop and if the bullet was shot high enough to clear the mountain, it would have sailed over his house about 3,000 feet high and landed 4 miles away...

... the fuckin' asshole drills the hole on the wrong side of the house.

Our range is west of his house, but he drills the hole on the south side - why?? - well, because that's the side where his garage is, and he doesn't want to drill into the GOOD side of the house, you dummies!!

... Duh. If this was an I/Q test... he hit 12!!

:))))

So the range is "O-fish-ully" closed today, while all the state police have a forensics investigation, take color pictures, make angular measurements, GPS measurements, take more color pictures (and maybe some Black & white pictures), take plaster casts of all foot prints found in the woods in the 1.3 miles to the "victims" house, and then turn all the "evidence" over to the military to see if the bullet could have come from the riffle range (without rifling on it!!)

Anyway, I went to the range on Tuesday, and dragged along seven sticks - so now I have more fresh meat for "par deux" of the barrel cleaning experiment.

But I made some observations that are worthy of mention...

I have this 6mmBR that I mentioned a few years ago. It is the craziest rifle I have - Remington gets $3,800 for them, made up special order.

Some years back, I saw a note posted on the bulletin board at my range for a Rem "6mm Rem 40X" for sale for $900. It seemed high for a 50+ year old rifle, which is probably why no one had answered the add - it had been up for two weeks.

I thought it was an old "40X" from the 50's, and not the 40-XB", so I thought I might talk the guy down and get it for the action.

I went to the guys house, and he's a real arrogant snot ball yuppy, with more money than brains...

... and he brings it out (in the box) and it is a brand new, never even had a scope mounted on it, 40-XBBR Remington Benchrest rifle from the custom shop, with a 2 oz trigger!!

And it's not 6mm Rem - it's 6mmBR!!! And he has two boxes of factory ammo(??).

He says that he special ordered it through his "buddy" that has an FFL, and he can't get the bullets to go into it. He says that he called Remington, and after a lot of screaming at them over the phone, they told him that the gun was too advanced for his level of skills (it was a tight neck, .266" chamber, and the ammo was a full .272" neck case).

So he took it to his friend, and the friend couldn't take it back cuz he wasn't a real gun shop, and he had special ordered it.

So this guy just wanted out of the gun.

Well, I whined and cried about the bad barrel and how I would have to get a new barrel for it "cuz it was no good, because the bullets didn't go into it", and I got the rifle for $700... then I sold the McMillen BR stock, and put on a freebee 700 Laminated Varmint Special stock that had been sitting in the corner.

I'm into it for $450 ;)

It shot OK, but never great - it looked like it wanted to shoot, but I would always get fliers that shouldn't have happened. I thought it might be the stock, because it didn't fit me worth a damn, and my head was up in the air when shooting ;).

So this winter, I sold the Varmint Special stock on the net for $135, and bought a Boyd's Heavy varmint with a high rollover cheek piece stock for $185, and bedded it with "Steel Bed" epoxy.

So at this point I'm into the rifle for a whoppin' $485!!!! I took it out Tuesday and one group after another, tiny itty bitty ragged holes. It's a winner. I feel like a kid at Christmas.

But the point is - if the stock don't fit - you will never reach the potential of the riffle.

Some notes on Chronographs...

On another site, a guy asked "How do you know when you have put in too much powder in a load?".

He gets an answer that goes something like, "When you increase your powder, but you get a minor increase in velocity, you have reached max load".

Now... since the original question was very (VERY) basic, it is fair to assume that the person had little or no experence, so why would the guy have a chrono?? ((but I digress)...

... the thread took off on "... there is no such thing and can't happen", can too, can not, can too, can not, can too...

Actually, I "have" seen this effect, but it is a statistical anomaly. If you repeat the string, it is gone. It comes from the variances in sampling 5 shot groups.

Here's the problem with that "wives tale".

When you add more powder, you:

1 - Reduce the air space in the case.

2 - Increase the surface area of the burning stuff.

1 + 2 = you generate more gas that goes into less space, and since the "Stuff" is progressive burning, it raises pressure faster.

More pressure pushes harder on the bullet thing - so like all inert masses, the more pressure on it, the more faster it goes - there are NO exception to these basic rules of guns.

If you have a ES of 30, then, on average, you will have a velocity distribution all through out the 30fps range, like 3000, 3010, 3015, 3020, 3030. For a mean of 3015.

Then we add .x grains of powder, and we "should" get a distribution statistics of five rounds at (maybe) 3030, 3040, 3045, 3050, 3060, for a mean average of 3045, or 30~ish fps faster.

But, statistics also allow a distribution statistics of five rounds to be 3030, 3032, 3031, 3034, 3032, and the mean of these is 3031.8... so we say, "Like WOW man, I only got 16.8 fps change, so therefore... bla bla bla..."

But if you run the same string over again, you will never get the same figures.

On two occasions, I have run strings and come up with five velocities that were all the same, id est, 3407, 3407, 3407, 3407, 3407... so a ES of "0", and an SD of "0".

Do you think I'm dumb enough to think I have discovered the best load in the world - not this puppy. Run the same loads (weighed) in the same cases, and it will come out with an ES and SD just like the rest of the loads in the test base.

It is easy to be seduced by those magical numbers that pop out of the chronographs - I have been shooting over chrono's since the late 50s... I now believe about 80% of what they say.

The sun light angle changes, and your 3560fps load is now 3482, or 3795... Duh!

I had a long talk with Ken Oehler about 7 years ago about the absolute accuracy of chronos - mostly the state of the industry, not limited to his stuff.

It was an interesting conversation - most people absolutely believe the numbers that come out of a chrono like they were numbers coming from the National Bureau of Standards.

But they are not - there is no reasonable or practical way to calibrate a chrono, or check it's state of accuracy, and they ALL use the same $2, 4Mhz clock chip that is made in some country where you have to boil the water before you drink it.

The velocities on the same loads vary by the lighting, where the bullet flies through the window, and what the angle the bullet makes over the windows... yet, most shooters think that 3204 in the little window means absolutely, positively, irrevocably, 3204.000000000 feet per second.

It does NOT - Such beliefs are sheer fantasy.

There is accuracy, and repeatability.

If you want accuracy, you must be able to calibrate the chrono to some known standard - you can't!!

If you want repeatability, you must have a reliable light source with a positive ON/OFF window - as the current chronos work, the circuit board "senses" a soft, MINOR, change in the screen current, because the bullet shape is soft, and the light source is broad. There is no instantaneous on/off... so there is no absolute point that the chrono thinks the bullet is there - it's kinda like the chrono starts getting a hint that something is changing, then at some point, says, "Self, I think a bullet is going through the gate, so maybe we ought to start timing."

In order to be absolute, the light sheet must be thin (on the order of 1-ish millimeter), and the shadow cast must turn off and on completely - that is, from full light to full dark when the point of the bullet enters the sensing zone. Instead of a ramp on the detector circuit cell voltage, it must produce a square wave.

None of this is practical in a small unit that you can set up at the range.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 11:55:17 (ZULU)

Pablo: "cuz the bullets didn't go into it"

Great post.

CDC'
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 13:27:17 (ZULU)

Lito, great post. I come to realize that people who do not like something either do not understand it or is to lazy to understand it or has no experience and basing it on their feelings which has squat to do with anything. But in your case, the idiot is an idiot, and dang we have to many of them around here, that should never have been hatched from their mother's egg.

Took my office to the local gun range by SF, everyone had a blast. Going to take them once more but we will be shooting rifles next :-) Converting one at a time.

Darren
Bay Area, CA, USA - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:12:49 (ZULU)

Lito,

You would be amazed at the number of engineers, including Ph.D.s, that fall into that type of number trap.

Increasing the clock speed won't help, but actually will increase the variation of the reported measurement. The clock signals in microprocessors look like sine waves, not square waves. The trigger point will always have some uncertainty around it as well, no matter how thin the light screen.

But... it's still a whole lotta fun!

Duman
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:32:22 (ZULU)

MarcS,

Anyone that does that to a rifle does a disservice to the shooting community. We've all had mishaps and dinged up a rifle or two, but to intentionally trash a new rifle shows the world that shooters are a bunch of slobs.

I'm not directing this at you, but at the guys that video taped themselves behaving badly.

Duman
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:39:04 (ZULU)

Because the bullets wouldn't go into it. Amazing. I wish I could find deals like that.

Thanks for the info on Chronographs that was all new to me.

CDC that was good stuff.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 15:44:05 (ZULU)

On the 6mmBR...

I would have helped the guy if he said he was gonna sell it because he didn't understand it, and needed help.

But, like all us, I have my prejudices, and one of them is people that throw money at others like it was a weapon.

The guy was in his early thirties and was the stereotype yuppy - lived in a new condo, with the required BMW in the drive - and there wasn't a piece of furniture in the place that was more than a year old.

So he decided he wanted "the best varmint rifle" and threw money at it. So I have no mercy, and enjoyed cleaning his clock.

Duman...

>"Increasing the clock speed won't help, but actually will increase the variation of the reported measurement. The clock signals in microprocessors look like sine waves, not square waves. The trigger point will always have some uncertainty around it as well, no matter how thin the light screen.

But... it's still a whole lotta fun!"<

I wasn't implying that increasing the clock speed would make things more accurate.

In a chrono, the clock oscillator just drives the engine - it is not a sine wave, it is a square wave "flip/flop" osscillator.

But the detector circuit is a DC voltage through fast response cells, and changes in the DC voltage are ramps, similar to the leading and trailing edge of a sine wave, so there is no "exact" point that the circuit decides to start counting.

The sharper you can make that ramp, the more accurate the chronograph.

If you can make a system that has a ramp so fast, (as to appear as a square wave) you will reach the theoretical limits of the clock, which would be 2 parts in 4,000,000, or something on the order of 1/10th of an inch for a 4,000 fps bullet.

But we are light years away from that kind of accuracy.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 17:47:50 (ZULU)

Sportsman's paradise. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 20:13:13 (ZULU)

Marc, thanks for the video link. I'll check it out and see what they have to say. Also thanks to the others who took time to post replies to my questions, even the Negative one from Lito. BTW Lito sometimes being "anal" can be a good thing. Paying attention to the "little things" has probably saved my ass more than once.I'm no "CHERRY" when it comes to weapons,but there's no reason to get into that here.I was just looking for some other opinions, not looking to get slammed by some old know it all fart. Good shooting!! Daniel M. Hallman

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United States - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 21:48:34 (ZULU)

For all of you that realise what bullshit most counseling is. CLICK

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 21:55:50 (ZULU)

Gee, thanks for starting a flame war, Dan. Anyone wanna take bets on how long THIS Jhihad will last?

Marc,

That guy's a tool.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:03:33 (ZULU)

"...not looking to get slammed by some old know it all fart."

Whoa!

I read that as refering to 'Lito whether you meant it to or not; and that statement negates any positive attributes you bring just from its sheer ignorance. Ya see, to make such a judgment call based on one little post that countered your preconceived notions---well, that isn't the heights of intellectual curiosity, know whud I mean? Let's assume that I too am no newby to weapons...in fact, heck, let's assume I wore a silly green hat and made a living based on weapons' handling skills. In short, I knew some things.

...and still learned as much from Lito as I did from anyone else, if not more.

Know-it-alls sometimes do. A wise fella would recognize them when he finds one---as rare as it may be. But even the less wise would benefit from this slight shred of wisdom: better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt...

Joe M
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:08:14 (ZULU)

Daniel...

>"I'm no "CHERRY" when it comes to weapons,"<

Anyone that asks questions like -

>"I was wondering if anyone has used the David Tubb's loaded Final Finish ammunition to break in a new bbl? If so what do you think about the results? Also would it be ok to use surplus FMJ ammo to break the barrel in instead of the Federal 168 gr. match ammo that I am going to use in this rifle ( same ammo that I use in my FAL and it shoots great)?"<

... is CHERRY - you are as green as it gets. My 16 year old son knows the answers to your questions.

>"... not looking to get slammed by some old know it all fart."<

You were NOT slammed by me... I can assure you of that.

This is a long time group - most of the guys here have been shooting together for a long time - many are military or LE, most have long experence. While many are long range match shooters of one kind or another, none of us are impressed by the kind of anal talk that BR shooters get involved every day.

We are a bit more practical than that.

There are folks that come here and think we are impressed by all the "anal" crap, like their precious way the clean their barrels, how many strokes the use with their rods, and how many different cleaners they use, and the black magic rituals they go through in putting their rifle in the case.

This group is not impressed by that stuff. No one here gives a crap about how you carefully withdraw your cleaning brush from the barrel, and use a rod with a swivel so the brush follows the rifling... I mean that. Your "stuff" is childish.

I didn't slam you, I just recommended that you go to a site where that stuff is appreciated. Those guys can argue for DAYS on whether you should push the cleaning rod or "pull it" ;)

People at benchrest.com love that kind of stuff, and you should be talking to people that can answer your questions, and appreciates your diligence and compulsions.

No one here gives a crap.

The reason I say this is that we have discovered over the years that when someone new starts these kinds of threads, if they take off for whatever reason, most of the knowledgeable shooters just drift away, and the site dies... for weeks, or sometimes much longer like months, and it takes a long time to get them back.

I really hate that.

If you want to participate, why don't you start a thread that actually moves the art of long range shooting FORWARDS, instead of the same ol' thread on "how I use my rod" :))).

Take that from an old fart to a young "Cherry" snot ball. ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:11:12 (ZULU)

Lito,

I agree with you. I think we're on the same page.

Duman
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:23:16 (ZULU)

Duman...

I have thought a lot about the chrono problems, and actually came with a few designs for better gates (in the endless quest to get rich ;), but the biggest problem is the end user - most guys just want to know "about" how fast their bullets are going.

Even the CED and Oehler 35 chrono's had hard competition from the $99 Pacts, so how much can you get for a lab grade unit.

Plus Oehler found that they had more expense with the smaller units than the professional units, because the end users for the 33 and 35 were mostly people that couldn't be trusted with sharp toys or can't get milk out of a bottle. So Oehler had a full time phone person to answer questions 8 hours a day.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:38:59 (ZULU)

"So Oehler had a full time phone person to answer questions 8 hours a day."

Now, THERE's a job I wouldn't do!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 9, 2008, at 22:58:48 (ZULU)

Lito: Oh yeah...this IS snipercountry, after all! I get carried away with socio-economics at times--but sniper is the operative word. good post on the mind set.

Being anal, looking after the little things, is all fine and well so long as you know what it's all worth when you light up your FPF. That would be no time to be looking at a kestrel for accurate wind readings:)) Tactical shooting and BR is the same only from the press of the trigger to the follow thru; and even that will differ immensely as to 'where" those actions take place.

A sniper deals with whatever variables gets thrown at him---a bench shooter will stay home on a rainy day:))

Sometimes we forget the difference ourselves...

Joe M
Friday, May 9, 2008, at 23:19:36 (ZULU)

A chronograph can tell you the range your average muzzle velocity is in. It can also, if you measure enough rounds, give you an idea of how much variance you'll get on average, i.e., how consistent the load is - which is what S.D. is the figure of merit for.

However, once I go shoot that load out to, say, 1000 yards, and put the conditions and bullet data into my ballistic program(s), I always find that I have to tune the ballistic program so that its output matches my shooting data.

Given that, I don't worry too much about the accuracy of the chronograph, particular since the velocity of any particular shot is unlikely to be exactly the average - and some will be quite different.

If I can get the ballistic program to give me an idea of where to start at ranges out past 700 yards, I'm a happy camper.

Lindy
On the road in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 01:09:59 (ZULU)

Damn...........Last night I thought I was getting ready to play Dorothy. Friggin storms, hail and tornados all over the place. Had two tornados within 3 miles of the homestead. Tore up some jets over at the airport in Greensboro. My butt stayed puckered all night.........and my damn generator won't crank. ARRRGGGGGGHHHH I hate Generac gennies. Will be ordering a brand new 10000 watt Briggs tomorrow with electric start and all the bells and whistles. I'm too old to camp out.

Daniel........

Very few of us have paid the dues long enough to call Lito an old know it all fart. Even though he actually is an old know it all fart you aren't qualified to opine that. Those of us on this site that are long in the tooth don't appreciate that shit from a newbie. Nuff said............

Prepping LC brass......

Picked up 2500 rounds of once fired that didn't look too bad for machine gun brass......still nasty, boring and tedious. Just cleaned and deprimed 1250 and getting ready to move on to pocket swaging. There isn't enough beer in the world to make this enjoyable. I swaged and uniformed the pocket on a piece and was amazed at how shallow those pockets are.....lots of brass coming out of those holes with the Sinclair tool.

Chrono country......

I have a Oehler. I likes it but it can be finicky with sun and clouds passing over. The only reason I use it is to get a general idea of velocity so I don't hit the berm or go over the target at Butner.......very embarassing having to chase sighters.

Waiting for the next storms due in a couple of hours, Bolt tired and out!

Bolt
Tornado alley.........., NC, - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:13:12 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Are you out in western Kansas? My father in law told me you guys were getting it rough over there last night. It's just humid as hell, down near Mulvane. Plenty of skeeters, if any of you wanna come get 'em.

If you are in need of a good fly spray for the dogs and horses, get a product called "Flicks". It's even better than Pyranha, and it's all organic. I use it on the boy and myself. Has a minty smell, and it's a little sticky, but when you spray it on a fly, they fall over. DRT. Lasts all day, and water soluable.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:24:31 (ZULU)

Bolt, the older generacs with their own motors were pretty good (I have an old 4.5kw)...most of the new crap has tecumsah or some other maker's cheapo motor...

Look for an engine with cast iron cylinder and a rep for long, cool running. I've become a big fan of Yamaha and everyone knows the Kawi motors are superb as well.

medicjim
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 03:28:31 (ZULU)

medicjim,

What's your take on Honda generators?

Duman
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 04:38:29 (ZULU)

Cherry:

Pablo is not some "old know-it-all fart." He is some "know-it-all old fart."

There is a difference. Get it right.

CDC'
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 04:57:51 (ZULU)

Duman,

Hey I'll throw my 25+ years experience with small motors in general and generators in particular... Hondas are good to go as are the yammerhammers and kawi's. I kinda lean towards the kawi's but they are not as supportable as the hondas. There really is not much difference.

Biggest problem with any generator that is not used everyday is fuel.

You have to have some way of keeping the fuel 'fresh'. The 'new' reformulated crap is only good for about 30 days or so. I use a product called 'stabil' that works quite well. I just started my old gravely convertible after 5 or so months on the first wrap of the starter rope..

What ever you have it pays off to start it at least once a month and get it up to operating temp just to get the condensation out. As a bonus you have the knowledge that your stuff runs...

Just some musing from someone who has made his living from operating small motors day in and day out...

Stay safe

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 12:31:28 (ZULU)

Bolt, My experience is likely less intense than Calvin's. We run gen sets with the fire department and that's were I see most of the issues. The hydraulic tools we use are Holmatro, and they make small power units based on the small honda motors...a neighboring township runs larger honda sets for primary power on all their engines. They all hold up well.

The thing that got me with honda was about ten years when they introduced an inferior line of motors... they first were distinguishable with black plastic cases vs the red and white metal shells of the quality units... Lately, I've seen the crap engines with all manner of case, including red plastic that looks very much like the old, quality setups. You need to be very careful with Hondas,, because their lower line of motors are crap....the high end line is still good to go...just my opinion.

medicjim
Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 14:30:39 (ZULU)

re: backup generators

For a low ongoing demand fixed installation setup, I would look at something that can be run on propane. Good fuel cost, long fuel shelf life. I've read that kind of setup is popular for new high-end homes in Florida, where planning for the inevitable hurricane power interruptions is now more prevalent.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 16:04:18 (ZULU)

I have had a Honda Generator for about 15 years - it is a 2200 EX "Something" quiet. It Was DAMNED EXPENSIVE!!

It is super quiet - I bought it for ham radio field day and I can run it on the porch and not hear it while siting in the living room 15 feet away, through just a glass door.

I have to second the comments about "Stabil"... I let it sit with gas in it one winter, and the evaporated gas gummed up the whole carb, floats, jets, needles etc... a full take down and clean in an ultrasonic cleaner with solvent for several hours to get the gum/varnish like stuff out.

Now I keep a 5 gal GI can gas with Stabil in it, and I run the gen dry when I use it.

Last year I was looking at Hondas and the current ones don't look as good.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 17:33:44 (ZULU)

HOGs been out of country a little while and got back on 8th. Only thing to say is when did Airlines forget how to fly? You would think stone age was back.

CDC, that is a great idea. Would be glad to help. Beanie Baby Prone. Did I call it that? LOL I use that for range alot but in field I still like my left hand under rear of stock

On cleaning a rifle. I have never actually cleaned one but if I did it would probably go something like this

1. Take one piece cleaning rod and put on eitehr used bore brush or one size smaller bore brush. Take patch soaked in Hoppes BR or Shooters Choice and wrap around brush. Push it down bore through bore guide from breach to muzzle. Unscrew brush, thrown patch away and do same thing again. Keep doing until you have carbon out. Thats usually five patches or so. Then push down a few dry patches.

Now switch to a cooper cleaner solvient and do same thing. Only let cleaner soak 2-5 minutes between patches. With good bbl you will have cooper out in five patches also. Now spray brush with WD40 to remove the cooper cleaner which will destroy the brush.

Now runa few dry patches and then a few oil patches to float out cooper cleaner. If its to be shot right away dry patch oil out. If not leave some oil for protection inside but remember to remove before shooting.

Whole thing takes less than ten minutes

As to break in try about ten pounds of sand if you want to ruin it fast. Otherwise just shoot and clean no abrassive shit and I can say that calling David a friend. I use his throat abrasive stuff to geta few hundred rounds out of a burnt throat rifle but thats it.

As to Litto, dont bite off more than you can chew. Guy knows alot and can shoot. I saw him make fools of all of us many years in prep for a sniepr comp, where we all crawled many yards to find good FFPs to shoot from and he just waited for us all to wander off and he planned a route where he walked to a spot, set up easily and made shots without getting busted. Never broke a sweat.

Now a question. What the hell is a Carbon Fiber cleaning rod supposed to do better? I mean I just started doing this.

Hey anyone going to Nationals in Lodi this year? Team USA will be there. Still deciding if I fly or drive across country. My new GA RPA rifle has yet to not max 500 and 600 stages (points not all x rings that .50 moa X ring is a bitch) but I figure next string will be the one I screw up big time. Guess how I clean it? The BR's all cringe when they discuss how they load and clean while this old dummy just shoots more.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 17:56:26 (ZULU)

If you need a small generator, the Honda EU1000i and the EU2000i are superb. The engines drives an alternator into an inverter, which produces clean AC you can run anything with. My EU2000i - 1600 watts continuous - weighs less than 46 pounds, and fits into the contractor toolbox on my truck.

It will run 4 hours at full load on a quart of fuel, and has an autothrottle for use with lower continuous loads, which cuts the engine speed back only to what the load demands. That cuts fuel usage even lower at partial loads, and is a benefit of the inverter, since line frequency is not dependent on motor speed.

I use it in the mountains in the summer with a 60-amp battery charger to charge the batteries in our travel trailer when in places with no electricity - which is most of them where we go. It's small and quiet, at 59 dbA.

Lindy
On the road somewhere in North America, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 18:34:37 (ZULU)

UnDudeski...

>"Now a question. What the hell is a Carbon Fiber cleaning rod supposed to do better?"<

I have read that these can break (instead of bend) and when they do, they shatter and splinter badly, and can cut you up.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 18:54:32 (ZULU)

Mike/Undude,

Did my snail mail ever get there?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 10, 2008, at 20:23:38 (ZULU)

UnDude: "Beanie Baby Prone. Did I call it that?"

My daughter has a little "Beanie Baby" teddy bear. It has the same plastic bead filler as the bag you gave me, and worked fairly well as a substitute. She would take the bear to the range and use it with her .22. We called it, "Beanie Baby Prone". If I would have been thinking, I'd have snapped a picture.

CDC'
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 10:50:31 (ZULU)

Carbon fiber rods are bad juju for breaking and sticking in yer paws. I worked with graphite rod blanks and arrow shafts for many moons and I can tell you that shit will break when you least expect it and will mess up your day if you get the splinters stuck deep. 10 times worse than getting a splinter out. I was doing a repair on a 10' graphite surf rod that had a cracked tip end. I had trimmed it back to where I thought the splintering had stopped. I had just finished sanding it and ran my finger down to dust it off. I had a graphite splinter enter one side of my finger and out of the other side in the blink of an eye. Pulling that sucker out almost made my eyes leak............

YMMV, Bolt out!

Bolt
Next round of storms on the way in......, NC, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 11:33:49 (ZULU)

A wandering rant!

I need a better computer!!!

I'm on two other sites on a regular basis, and browse (but don't post) on a few others, and I'm depressed.

Everyone gets endless 1/4" groups out of their factory riffles, and their handloads get ES's of 10, and SD's of 2!!!

Well, my sticks are pretty good, and my loading technique is pretty good, so it must be my computer.

The internet is an interesting place ;)))

I got a laugh out of Joe's comment about socio-economics... and it got me thinking.

I've been on this site for maybe 12 years, and I can remember some colorful characters - Nato-Steve comes to mind. And going way back, a bunch of others, and I can't forget, "Master Kung Foo Sniper" :))).

But what caused this trip down nostalgia lane was our most recent visitor, "Cherry Dan". I guess he didn't have the stones to make the cut.

Most websites have a constant rollover of newbees that pop in with the same ol' questions, and if you are on the site for three months, you have gotten all you can get from it, because you will be reading, "Can I use IMR-4350 instead of H-4350?" for the fourteenth time by week eight!!

But that doesn't happen here anymore - we have had maybe two or three like "Cherry Dan" in the last year.

(I don't count Jon-K in that group cuz he was a good sport, and has learned a lot and moved up the ladder to being a no BS grasshopper).

So obviously, we're doing something right (or wrong), depending on your point of view.

In spite of the fact that we, as a group, don't have an endless outpouring of "techno-babble" about which gun case will tighten your groups, this site is read and respected all over the shooting community.

It absolutely amazes me, "where" and how often we are quoted around the net.

Shooters pour over this site and dig up stuff from our archives all the time.

So I guess we are doing something right.

... Hey Cherry Dan, come on back, we have good techno-babble for you!! Tomorrow, I'll report about the new gun case that I bought that reduced my groups from 1" to less than 1/4", just by letting the gun sit in it for a week.

Next week, I'm gonna report on a test I have been doing - if you store your riffles lying on the left side, it will compensate for spin-drift.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 13:38:55 (ZULU)

20 shots, 11 enemy KIA, 5 probables.

God loves American snipers.

sinister
Green Zone, getting rocketed, in this dusty frigging place - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 15:13:01 (ZULU)

Lito-san,

IIRC, your super-duper-sniper-secret was "green". I'll have to scrounge that one up.. one of my favorites.

Question on blueing (sp?). I recently sold an older Sako back to the guy from whom I originally purchased. I pulled it from the safe, after having not looked at it in a year or so. The blueing around the chamber appeared to have gone from 'black' to a purplish/brown. Turns out, it was exactly as the original owner remembered, so I was put at ease that I hadn't done something silly during storage.

Blueing is soemthing I view as alchemy. What makes one blued rifle "go purple" and another to remain "black"? What incantations do you invoke when you blue your stuff?

Duman
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 15:40:07 (ZULU)

Sinister: Congrats to the shooters.

A couple of days ago I posted some badly edited notes on rifle shooting. If you have a few minutes, your input would be invaluable and much appreciated.

To find the post, search [ Ommm ].

CDC'
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 16:35:43 (ZULU)

Dan,

Good write-up. I'd add if shooting with a sling and glove vice bipod that you accept your wobble area -- you aren't going to be able to hold a rifle with no movement.

Your prone position should be comfortable and not allow stress on your diaphragm, adding to pulse and rise. Cock your shooting side leg to take off pressure. Shift your natural point of aim by rotating about your belt buckle.

Letting out the breath is part of your natural respiratory cycle. If you don't get enough oxygen, pretty soon your vision starts to blur and fail and your pulse will go up.

Finger contact and grip are as varied as there are hands. Hold the weapon where it's most comfortable, but don't give it the barracks grip trying to bend a McMillan.

Follow-through as the striker goes forward is just as important as the trigger squeeze.

At Camp Perry during the Small Arms Firing School a champion NCO was asked what the secret to the perfect shot and going Distinguished was. He stood up and replied, "Properly align the sights with the target. Squeeze the trigger to make the rifle go off without disturbing sight alignment." Then he sat down.

sinister
Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 18:10:23 (ZULU)

Duman,

It's not so much an oral "incantation", as it is more of a physical "kabuki dance".

just kidding, anyways, here's the short version, as I know it.

The colors, tints, and hues that come out of the blueing tank are due to a combination of 3 things. 1) the alloy mixture and proportions that are in the metal being blued 2) the chemicals used in the bath, and their proportions, and 3) the temperatures involved as well.

I don't presume to know all, by any shot. But when I was assisting years ago, this is the answer given to my same question. Model 12 recievers were great for producing 'rainbows', as an example. Rug... Ru... (that 'R' word) they came out rosy, for the most part, on the M77's.

Just my .02, and would you like change?

Sinister, sounds good, please, keep it up!

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Mb., Canada - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 18:16:40 (ZULU)

Sinister- Glad to hear of that score. I'm sure there's a great story there.

Don't you love the way high masters make it sound so easy? A friend of mine was pulling targets for a young Marine during a match at Camp Pendleton last year and was very impressed with his shooting. He cleaned his rapids, dropped a couple offhand and a couple in slow prone I think and finished out FAST with something like a 496'ish. My friend asked him for some advice on how to get a 195+ in offhand. The kids response was "Well, you put your rifle up here like this, hold it steady, and press the trigger when the sight picture looks good". The kid was not even trying to be funny and didn't realize what he had just said. I guess for some it's just that easy.

Mike- I might see you out there at the nationals. I won't be competing in that match but I'll be practicing on another one of the ranges there. I'm assuming FCS will be there too. I'll come by and see you guys.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area,, CA, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 18:32:04 (ZULU)

Dave, that made my day after a bad last night.

Had a Litto type night. Oldest Daughters 18th birthday and took her and her boyfriend out to dinner. Great time. Came back to Ex Wife telling daugfhters she did not want them to go to her house on mothers day because they had not vacumed her house last time there. Litto this is just the tip but everytime it reminds me of crap you have gone through. One thing to mess with me but when they mess with the kids I hope God is watching. Nothing like a grown woman making her daughters cry at a birthday party.

Doc, I havee several hudnred of the slings in production right now. Unfortunately they are all being worked on by my new worker/brotehr in law who needed work. They are coming along slow but perfect as his skills increase. He is as big a perfectionist as I am. Will let you know when ready.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 18:57:18 (ZULU)

Just found a story about Sean Penn's buddy Chavez providing aid to FARC fighters.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080511/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_chavez_and_rebels

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 21:11:35 (ZULU)

international Kestrel vendors:

Any other alternative competitive Kestrel vendor recommendations that will ship to Canada (or are Canadian domestic)?

I've decided on the Kestrel 2500NV. (Don't have an urgent need for NV, but it's a small premium and green is much more tacticool than orangish :-).

Platinum Ebay seller and authorized Kestrel dealer "balkowitsch" sells the 2500NV for $150 and will ship to Canada for fair price.

http://myworld.ebay.ca/balkowitsch

(I know, Ebay is anti-gun. )

Ran across my Jul/2006 product heads up on 2500NV in Jun/2006 SC. As Demo Dick (Richard Marcinko) says in his books, you'll be seeing this material again :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 11, 2008, at 21:24:41 (ZULU)

Guys, lost the kink sonewhere, but if anyone has a link to the story of the cops in Pennsylvania interrupting everyone's dinner at a buffett and demanding papers and serial numbers of guns, I'd appreciate it. Fucking Nazis.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 06:33:21 (ZULU)

Sinister: Thanks for the response. It is appreciated.

Now, where is Rick?

CDC'
Monday, May 12, 2008, at 11:28:59 (ZULU)

[url] Dickson City, PA police demand gun owners’ “identity papers” & conduct Katrina style gun confiscation!

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/10755.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 11:38:57 (ZULU)

Rod,

You rock, eh?

I absolutely LOVED this part:

Police look for cover from restaurant management

As the police began winding down their Kafkaesque theater act, one of the officers asked the Old Country Buffett manager on duty if he “had any problems” with the group remaining at the restaurant. The manager responded laconically that “we had no problems ‘till you showed up.”

Anyone have an update on this?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 14:15:23 (ZULU)

Po Po strike restaurant in Pa.

http://mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=6894

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/political-138/23480-come-attend-dickson-city-council-meeting-tuesday-13-may-7pm.html

Yikes, Whos breaking the law ????

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US of A - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 15:59:12 (ZULU)

For those of you that have been around for a while, you may recall I had a theory regarding a particular load in .260 that I was experimenting with....

We'll, after a weekend in the Allegheny mountains, I can say with some confidence that my theory holds water. The remarkable thing with this load is that the components are still very affordable.

If you get my drift and would like to try to reproduce my experimental success, contact my through roster email. - Jim

medicjim
Monday, May 12, 2008, at 20:22:59 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

e-mail sent!

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 20:44:00 (ZULU)

Lito, response sent, let me know what you think

medicjim
Monday, May 12, 2008, at 21:18:13 (ZULU)

OK lito, I wasn't trying to start a "flame war" with you and I did jump the gun a bit by calling you a "know it all old fart". All that I was asking for was a little information verification from some of the archived forums on this site about breaking in a new barrel. Looks as though I'm really making to much out of this so I guess that I'm guilty of being "anal" as you stated in your reply. Anyway for what is's worth at this point I apologize for calling you a " know it all old fart" and hope we can leave it at that. Daniel Marc, checked out the you-tube link that you gave me. Really got a good laugh out of it. Good shooting to all of you, Daniel

Daniel M. Hallman
Abilene, Texas, United States - Monday, May 12, 2008, at 22:11:59 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

It sounds good - the Scenars have extraordinarily high BC for their weight, as they often make much larger hollow spaces in the bullet, so for a given weight, they have a better form factor - the 30 cal 155 Scenar is a prime example - a BC that is close to the 190 SMK, and when you add the velocity increase you get from a 155gr load - your are shooting a ballistic equivalent of a 300 Win Mag, with the recoil of a 308.

Daniel - don't sweat the small stuff...

... and it's all small stuff ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 00:51:35 (ZULU)

Varget and drop tubes

Any opinions on drop tube length dimensions for:

Varget and .223 Rem?

Varget and .308 Win?

I'm finding myself gravitating towards those combos, which is inconvenient for production flows.

In particular, I would like to figure out a way to progressively load a compressed Varget charge for .223 Rem. It apparently needs a drop tube if I want to drop enough powder into the case and seat the 75g OTM projectile to magazine length.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 00:56:31 (ZULU)

drop tubes redux:

Ok, changed my .223 Rem powder measure setup to include the Lee Auto-disk riser kit. That increments the defacto length of the drop tube by 1.4 inches. Total length is now around 5.5 inches. However, the top is *not* a large funnel, which I suspect is part of the magic associated with a long drop tube.

Comments?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 01:32:17 (ZULU)

Hi Daniel,

Don't worry about the rough introduction to the DR. I promise there have been many that were much worse and later became respected and regular posters as I suspect you will be.

It's just the internet LOL.

I like the way you came right back the way you did. Good man.

On the video- That guy is a rude, crude, hard ass sonofabitch from south east Alaska. A logger that, apparently makes a shit load of money and spends it all on guns and fishing tackle. He owns somewhere between 2 and 3 dozen custom rifles I'd guess, most of which are in McMillan stocks. The environment that he operates in is eternally wet and everything rusts. All of his rifles are stainless/fiberglass combos. He made that video out of frustration from the internet experts who get super technical about a particular method of barrel break in they may consider superior. He is of the opinion that it doesn't matter at all. So he made the little humorous vid as a stab at those types. Nothing more to it than that really. He actually wears rifles out anyway so the few nicks and scratches were purely cosmetic and meant nothing to him. Most either like the guy or absolutely hate him. I like him.

For what it's worth all I do is clean the barrel after every shot for the first 5 or so. Both carbon and copper. You'll notice that on a custom barrel it stops holding copper after about 3 or 4 shots. There's no mistaking it you'll know when it happens. Then I do a ten shot group, thoroughly clean it all out one more time, and that's it. I'm done. I don't use JB or any other abrasive until about 600 or 700 rounds and then it's not much. I'm scared of the scratchy stuff in my barrels.

I should also say that this comes from my VAST experience of 3, yes that's a total of THREE, custom barrels.

Welcome to the DR.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 05:31:19 (ZULU)

Mike Miller (and any of you gentlemen): If you have the time and the inclination, take a (another?) look at the "checklist" post. Your comments would be appreciated.

Search "checklist". That is a lousy name, but I'm stuck for something better.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 12:46:27 (ZULU)

For you snipie types that practice on fuzzy critters, I thought you might get a kick out of this article from a Colorado News Paper...

---

Prairie dogs face new threat: bureaucrats

Wednesday, May 07, 2008

Any society that can afford to fret about the fate of nature’s hairy answer to the cockroach — the prairie dog — has to be considered a mite confused.

Not surprisingly, that society would be this one.

Yes, the federal government has agreed to consider the possibility that the white-tailed prairie dog might be an endangered species.

That would be the same prairie dog that you see haunched up in the desert, generally surrounded by fleas.

Not being particularly bright, they also tend to become decorations on Desert Duelers and naturalistic murals on Michelins and Goodyears as they dash onto busy roadways to chomp down on the remains of their erstwhile townies.

More frequently, they, or what’s left of them, end up as chow for hawks, eagles, coyotes, cougars, bobcats and so on.

And, horror of horrors, prairie dogs also tend to spend some of their last moments in the cross hairs of telescopic sights of modern rifles wielded by human sharpshooters.

The last activity, of course, is considered unacceptable by one subset of humanity that simply cannot stand the thought of another subset wandering unregulated about the public lands.

Which brings us to the point at which we are now considering spending hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars, on highly trained technocrats who will devote untold hours to counting prairie dogs in the sagebrush, piñon, and juniper-studded high country of the Rocky Mountain West.

They will report their findings to bureaucrats and lawyers in Washington, D.C., who then will shred acre upon acre of forest for the paper on which they will write notes, drafts and proposals for the future of the prairie dog.

Some might even note the prairie dog is anything but a dog. Far from being related to such noble creatures, prairie dogs are shirttail relatives of squirrels.

No one is certain, but it is known that fossilized p-dogs have been found in North America. Certainly some of the tiny mammals that survived dinosaurs bore marked resemblances to prairie dogs and their kin.

No doubt that once the smoke clears from the volcano erupting near Chaiten in Chile, the first little creatures to emerge will be relatives of our very own high-range furry roach.

These bite-sized beasties don’t survive by accident. They survive because too many larger species depend on them.

They make rabbits appear strait-laced. They can’t run like hares, and they have few defenses outside their burrows. But they’re the high-desert equivalent of fast food: Predators can eat and run.

If p-dogs were as valuable and as threatened as they’re purported to be, then it would make sense to donate them to the military junta in Burma as a renewable protein source for Burmese who survived the cyclone.

That won’t happen, obviously, but it’s worth noting that while the Burmese struggle to survive, one human subspecies is more concerned with the future of the p-dog than the Burmese.

Which is funny because, like the cockroach, the prairie dog will outlive us.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 16:12:31 (ZULU)

Lito,

That came from a CO paper?? Huh. Go figure.

The last time I shot prairie-roaches, a golden eagle swooped in for dinner before the roach was cold.

Duman
Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 16:58:49 (ZULU)

Duman...

When we shot them in SoDak, we would leave a true "field of carnage".

The next morning, there would be no signs of dead PDs - not even the bones.

We were supporting the food chain ;))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 17:10:20 (ZULU)

This reminds me of one of the most recent attacks on gun owners in California.

http://www.savethecondor.com/press/vcs101407.html

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 01:35:14 (ZULU)

Just a thought: In the areas where there are a bunch of unexploded landmines, couldn't we just turn a BUTTLOAD of prairie rats loose? In far east countries, this would be dual purpose. The proliferate like crazy, and those people will eat ANYTHING.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 06:40:22 (ZULU)

Our family is going to Singapor, Jakarta, and Bali for vacation. This trip is a gift from my best friend (who I met in College)to my daughter as a graduatin present. He made a wager with her when she started jr. high that he would give her what she wanted (within reason) if she got straight A's for the year. Most years she would ask for nuttin' and last year she told him that, for getting A's every year through graduation, she wanted a family trip to his home.

I expected her to ask for a car. Not something so unselfish. The last time we were there she was three, and she wanted memories to match the pictures we have from last time.Yup I'm a proud poppa.

Speaking of kids who have their heads on straight, remember the littlest girl from the Cosby Show. She has been working with Disney as "Raven". Your kids know her ; ) Raven "came out" as a shooter in PEOPLE magazine. Her favorite stick is a sniper rifle. It was a pretty good article. I wonder how long it will take for her carrer to tank.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 06:42:48 (ZULU)

Guys,

A certain little 12 year old in my house very nearly died tonight.

As I told you guys, here recently, I got a mint condition Winchester 94 Saddle Ring Trapper in .30-30 for less than half of what it's worth. I never even shot it, because I wanted it to retain it's value.

I cleaned it, wiped off all the fingerprints, wiped it down with Sheath, put it in a gun sock, then put it where NOTHING would damage it.

.......or so I thought.

It's been fairly humid here for the last couple of months, so I thought, "Hey, maybe I'll get it out, look at it, and make sure I put enough Sheath on it.". Mainly, just an excuse tpo get it out and look at it, ya know? I've NEVER owned a new gun. This is as close as I've ever gotten.

Well, after carefully getting it out, carefully setting it down, and removing the sock, I notice a HUGE GOUGE in the bottom of the magazine tube. Not like a dent, not a scratch, I mean about half the size of a dime, and deep enough that the metal's pushed up on one side of it.

My first thought was a 2 a.m. "shock and awe" wake-up, but I figured I ought to wait until the veins in my neck stopped jumping so hard, and my eyes stopped bulging out.

I guess this is my payback for losing some of Dad's tools as a kid, and some other stuff, but I about had a complete shit fit.

Anyone know where I could get this fixed and reblued to where it looks correct? Ideas on how much it should cost?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 08:47:32 (ZULU)

Steve Dzupin sent me a link to a video of this guy moving HUGE stones, A La Stonehenge, so I searched, and found his site.

Being an asshole, I often have to work alone, so I've always liked figuring out ways to use balance, leverage, and strength to to a job easier. This guy appears to be a kindred spirit. He even moved a pole barn to another property BY HIMSELF! No power equipment at all! Just a big ole lever.

If he has a fan club, I'll wear the T-shirt!

P.S.~ Lito, this is thanks to Steve's insomnia, not mine.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 11:17:09 (ZULU)

Travis,

This may be an option...

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=10977&title=WIN.%2066,73,92%20&%2094%20MAGAZINE%20TUBE

UnPat

UnPat
Wi , USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 11:20:48 (ZULU)

Travis,

You might give these guys a call. I've had a lot of re-blue jobs done by them and they were all outstanding. They are not cheap.

http://www.simmonsguns.com/

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 13:09:15 (ZULU)

re: W94 mag tube fix

I'm with UnPat in this one. If you can still get the tube from Brownells, that will be by far the easiest fix.

Order quick, a lot of the W94 parts are out of the pipeline for now.

Plan B - Gun Parts Corp for same.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 17:11:03 (ZULU)

"Being an asshole, I often have to work alone,..."

'Bout killed another keyboard reading that while drinking coffee:))

Speakin' of habits: Day 4 (or 5 if I count the day I tossed my can) without copenhagen. I can give anyone a run on "asshole" certification, at least until the withdrawal lets up some.

Now, I bet I couldn't hold steady to save my life. If that doesn't pass, I can always unquit.

The boy is back on track in training. His desire to sneak cell phones and spent ordnance has been greatly diminished, if not beat clean outta him:))

One real-life found tick inevitably leads to 50,000 "ghost" ticks crawling all over yer hide.

Joe M
Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 22:40:03 (ZULU)

Wally's world !

http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/posts/moving_big_rocks

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey ( Peoples Republic of ), US of A - Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 23:18:39 (ZULU)

Joe M: Congrats on the boy. That's good news.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 14, 2008, at 23:29:15 (ZULU)

Joe:

ticks were definitely something I didn't miss when I left North Carolina. Concur about "ghost" ticks. Also didn't miss chiggers.

They say ticks have made it this far north. Haven't seen any locally, but saw one in Yarmouth, NS several years ago. Found it on the move, thank goodness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tick

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 00:53:11 (ZULU)

Joe:

Good idea to use a "keyboard condom" or have a spare keyboard ready when reading from the Internet :-)

keyboard condom: A flexible, transparent plastic cover for a keyboard, designed to provide some protection against dust and programming fluid without impeding typing.

http://catb.org/jargon/html/P/programming-fluid.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 00:56:58 (ZULU)

OK, now I'm asking whom I believe are the no BS experts... what would be y'alls recommendation for a 30 cal. suppressor that would also be used on a 5.56. I'm led to understand that while not quite as effective, using a 30 cal. suppressor on a 5.56 does work.

I'd prefer not to have a "screw-on" mount, but something that's more or less "quick detach"....and precise enough to minimize POI shift between "can-no can".

I've looked at other boards/sites and "Googled" firearms suppressors and find information(?)/opinion all across the board....wet/dry/level of performance/consistency/etc.

I would suspect that a "known" product would be best??? Ie. AWC/GemTech/AAC/Surfire(yeah, right...its only $$$).

Also, there's a manufacturer here in Montana...Elite Iron...not too far away that says good things about their stuff (duh!).

Awaiting words of wisdom.....

SteveinButte
Butte, Montanaaaa, USofA - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 02:24:11 (ZULU)

Greetings,

What is the vedict on the surplus Indian .308 ball that is avaiable on the market lately? Rumor has it that dangerous, both to user and firearm, to shoot. Anybody have any information? Thx

Pat II
Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 02:46:53 (ZULU)

Pat II:

THR thread on 1975 and 1990's vintage India surplus .308:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=342127

Has pointers to other sources too.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 03:33:16 (ZULU)

Rod,

Thanks for the info. I think I am good to go. Interesting site. Thanks again.

Pat II
Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 04:00:16 (ZULU)

Steve, Check this site for info on suppressors. lot's of knowledge here.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/index.php

Cheers

George Daly
Dickson, Tn., USof A - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 04:00:44 (ZULU)

Pat II:

You're welcome. Lot of good firearm knowledge on THR. The moderators are pretty aggressive about keeping it on ...

The High Road.

I've seen John Ross, Massad Ayoob and some other notables over there on occasion.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 04:19:54 (ZULU)

Update on the Nazi cops in Pennsylvania. No, they haven't been bound over for trial. Click

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 09:06:33 (ZULU)

223 Pet Loads

I know we've done this many times before, but for those of you willing to play along, what are your favorite loads in an AR-15?

Bullet: Hornaday 55gr FMJ

Powders: H-322, H-335

Thanks in advance.

Duman
Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 19:21:28 (ZULU)

Duman:

.223 Rem, AR15, 55g FMJ

H-322 - 23.0g max - used it, works fine.

H-335 - 25.3g max - used slightly above that, works fine (diff loading manual data)

Load data from Lee Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed.

Both meter fine, perfect load density in .223 Rem.

The H-335 loading is somewhat faster than the H-322 loading, similar pressure levels.

Usual disclaimers and warnings apply...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 15, 2008, at 23:32:21 (ZULU)

"Know it all old fart"

Hee hee ...

That made me laugh.

Hell Junior ... he does know it all.

Sinister wrote: "God loves American snipers"

Indeed. What a donation HE made ... John 3:16

Just blowin' through. Good to see the gang.

OUT

brian k. sain
Friday, May 16, 2008, at 00:01:28 (ZULU)

BKS:

Don't be a stranger. I cherish your stories.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 01:11:15 (ZULU)

AR-15 load:

If you have the twist for it, 77 grn SMK over as much Varget or RL-15 as you can get into the case.

Works even better out of a bolt gun with a 24 to 26 inch barrel.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 05:05:16 (ZULU)

re: .223 heavy projectile loading:

JC wrote:

"...as much Varget or RL-15 as you can get into the case."

That typically means using a drop tube or vibrating the case to pack down the powder.

I'm still trying to figure out how to accomplish that on a progressive press without enormously slowing down the workflow.

Constructive suggestions invited

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 11:53:21 (ZULU)

Swallow your coffee, then click. Watch at 1 minute, then again at 1 minute, 30 seconds.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 14:19:57 (ZULU)

Daniel: "...I did jump the gun a bit by calling you a "know it all old fart".

I was impressed that you are such an astute judge of character.

Ain't that right, Pablo? ;)

CDC'
Friday, May 16, 2008, at 15:35:17 (ZULU)

Going to try and make my first match of the year tomorrow.....if nothing happens. Have missed three matches this year due to you name it. I started taking a antibiotic yesterday for rosacea on my ugly red face and it kinda messes up the bodily sanitary system. I have an aversion to antibiotics anyway and having to take them for something as stupid as a red face really sucks. Next month I've got to ride the silver bullet. Been putting it off for three years. Having to take a day off to have someone invade my netherparts with a fiber optic hockey pusher is a terrible waste of vacation days. Dread drinking the swamp water most of all..........

Rod......

Dump the 55's if you have a 1:9 or tighter twist. Get some 77 SMK's or Hornady 75 BTHP's (cheaper and just as good or better). Dump 24.5 - 25 grains or RE15 or Vargay in the brass with whatever primer you have on hand and let them fly. Check yer primers when the weather is hot, may can get by with 24.0 - 24.5 in the summer.

New 1500 yard range in NC......

Damn spanky, looks like I get to stretch it out to 1500 yards pretty soon. Some folks are opening up a new range in Louisburg about 2 hours from the humble abode with max caliber of 50. I feel a 338 or 50 may be in the future.

Time to hit the garden and repair the damage, Bolt out!

Bolt
Shooting tommorrow....I hope, NC, - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 17:35:17 (ZULU)

Rod, JC: Thanks for the input. I'll go that route. I've got lots of H322/H335, and a ton of 55FMJ.

Bolt: I'll give the 77grSMKs/HDY 75BTHPs a shot in the future. All the best, it sounds like you're on a rough ride.

InSain: Thanks for the drive-by!

Duman
Friday, May 16, 2008, at 18:20:34 (ZULU)

Joe M

Keep up the good fight, quitting is worth it later, though not much fun right away. A store display of chewing tobacco still made my mouth water years after I stopped. Good news on the boy, funny how boot camp tends to do that. He'll make it and you'll both be proud of him.

Erik

Erik in Kodiak
Friday, May 16, 2008, at 18:28:58 (ZULU)

CDC...

>" Daniel: "...I did jump the gun a bit by calling you a "know it all old fart".

I was impressed that you are such an astute judge of character.

Ain't that right, Pablo? ;)"<

Yup, Dat's right!!

BoltsterDudeski...

E-mail on the way about the 1,500yd 50-BMG friendly range.

Hurry back with some info, I'm starting to breath funny ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 22:36:45 (ZULU)

Bolt:

I wasn't necessarily recommending 55's, just replying to a request for load data using same and H322, H335.

I already have a 100 piece box of Hornady .224 75g OTM's. I'm trying to work up a load and confirm that my 1:9 Mike Rock 20" button rifled AR15 barrel likes them before buying larger quantities.

The Hornady 75g OTM is one of the few match-grade heavy .223 Rem projectiles that I have Canadian bulk sourcing for at "reasonable" prices. 600 packs are available for $C116.71 plus shipping and taxes. I want a loading that will work out of a standard interior cartridge overall length AR15 magazine. (2.260" or so).

A long-range .223 Rem loading is not compelling for my usage. The range where I normally shoot my AR15 will eventually have max 250 meters (or so) for it's rifle range - 200 currently. I finally came to my senses and decided that a rifle is most easily utilized and useful if I a developed a single quality loading for it, rather than messing around with a lot of different loadings. Also makes it easier to set up a proper zero too.

My first test loading experiment with 75g Hornady OTM projectiles and IMR4896 (yes, 4896! - non-canister grade factory test run) was a failure for velocity. I tried IMR4896 because I have a bunch of it already onhand. Didn't have any apparent 100yd stability issues, but the single group I shot was disappointing. Since I was using too hot a load for the powder/brass/projectile combo, I didn't want to shoot several groups. (Primers were getting blown out). I'm having some mild vision issues, so the group issue could easily be the "nut behind the butt".

Loading trial 2 will be using 25g of Varget *stuffed* into commercial brass. Waiting to get chrono-worthy outdoor weather range time to shoot for group (to confirm stability) and velocity. I am optomistic about both, standard recipe of 75g OTM and a case-full of Varget is a current classic that I've seen mentioned in several locations.

I'm working on a DIY chrono illuminator that could be used with heavy overcast/rainy/snowy weather or indoors where only fluorescent lighting is prevalent.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 16, 2008, at 23:26:12 (ZULU)

Travis: The "moving heavy objects" link was fascinating. Archimedes' "give me a long enough lever and a place to stand" statement seemed abstract and theoretical. It looks like it wasn't.

CDC'
Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 10:33:19 (ZULU)

Archimedes - another "know it all old fart" :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 12:22:24 (ZULU)

Bolt

I hear you on the invasion of privacy thing. Did that last winter.

Now i'm sitting here in this robotic chair while it works my right shoulder.

Torn rotator cuff sure as hell has screwed up my hole summer

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 12:48:04 (ZULU)

I met this young SEAL in Texas where I was teaching. He and his brother were members of SEAL Team 5. Marcus is the lad who just got the Navy Cross (I believe) for a real bad time in A-stan. He wrote a book about it called Lone Survivor. The man has been to Hell.

Listen to him; he is not polished but very real. He will make you laugh too.

S/F

Finger

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?RsrcID=2507

Jim Reifinger
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 15:15:02 (ZULU)

Travis, not to burst your bubble, but after 3 or 4 go-rounds, it was obvious the clip is faked. This is not to say that I haven't known of folks stupid enough to have done something like that for real.

WR Moore
Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 19:07:17 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

I've heard that nonstop from the same people that declared both Hogzilla and Monster pig to be fake. Enjoy it for what it is.

That said, I figure the blip is the electronics reacting to the explosion.

I really don't care whether or not it's "fake". I just think it's funny as hell.

Jim,

Thanks for the video. I think I could like that guy.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 17, 2008, at 21:17:49 (ZULU)

rod regier: Old Archie was quite a guy. He was about an inch away from inventing integral calculus when he was killed, which was something like 2,000 years ahead of everyone else.

Have you ever heard of Hero (or Heron) of Alexandria? Unbelievable mind. Among other huge acts of intellect, he programmed computers of his own design in the first century A.D.

CDC'
Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 01:29:08 (ZULU)

CDC:

I recalled the "Hero engine" from a book on inventors I read in my teens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_engine

Didn't recall his mathematical endevours.

Hero of Alexandria:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

One of Hero's known publications:

Mechanica, preserved only in Arabic, written for architects, containing means to lift heavy objects.

How's that for a functional cross-reference to Archimedes?

I recall Newton being associated with integral calculus in modern times. Wikipedia says: In mathematics, Newton shares the credit with Gottfried Leibniz for the development of calculus. (I'm sure you knew that, but others reading this may not).

Newton was another amazing "know it all old fart".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issac_newton

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 03:08:34 (ZULU)

rod: You have to wonder at these people. Years ago, in an elementary DE class, we were shown the Variation of Parameters model. I didn't get it and went home to derive the thing from scratch. While looking at the finished work I realized that I was gazing at beauty. The people who develop this sort of thing are - most often - broadly accomplished. If memory serves - and it may not - Liebnez (sp) is a good example. He was a gifted linguist and powerful diplomat, was fluent in several languages, wrote books on philosophy that will influence human thought far in to the future, and - in his spare time - developed calculus. We are still using his notation.

CDC'
Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 03:43:29 (ZULU)

Interesting fact I just learned:

Jimmy Stewart (the actor) was an Air Force Brigadier General Whodathunkit?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 07:59:55 (ZULU)

Sure was Travis. He and his wife visited us in Vietnam at 3rd Force in Quang Tri. They were their to see his step-son Lt. Rod McClean, who later was KIA. Very Sad.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 14:52:28 (ZULU)

Joe,

quitting the pixie dirt was one of the hardest things I`ve done. I tried the fake stuff and gum. No good. I finally just decided 'I owned it, it didn`t own me. Going on two years and I could go out and buy a can tomorrow. Stay with it!! Your tongue will thank you.

It makes for some long days in your tree stand but you`ll get over it.

Steven S. Racer
Earth, - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 17:24:13 (ZULU)

Steven: No kiddin'--this is hard. The urge to greviously wound anyone crossing me has finally passed, but the indigestion---sorta sour heartburn--seems to be chronic ever since my first nicotine urge hit (after tossing the stuff out my window). That sucks. I'm slowly settling out of all of this though. Each day is easier than the last. My reason for quitting was financial: I am changing policy coverages and wanted "non-smoking" rates applied. That got me thinking about why i still used the crap--since all my other excuses no longer apply (stress of deployed life, burning candles at both ends, etc). Then there's my daughters: Wouldn't be cool to skip out on life before they head out on their own...all coincided one fine day and i just chucked the can on the spot. Figured I was bigger than the addiction. I hate when I understimate the enemy:))

Now if I could just quit fencing, life would be good. And that is not the foil-type of fencing!

Heron's leaps beyond his peers was alomost supernatural. There were a few in history like this. Makes you wonder where we'd be if we weren't so proficient at forgetting thru time.

Joe M
Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 18:00:32 (ZULU)

re: Heron

I believe much of what we know of Heron and others from that era comes from the scraps of what survived the Library of Alexandria. Since the library was intentionally burned down, only a small amount of it's holdings survive to modern times. The invention of the printing press made knowledge much less vulnerable to loss of a single major storehouse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 19:36:32 (ZULU)

"The invention of the printing press made knowledge much less vulnerable to loss of a single major storehouse."

Quite possibly the perfect understatement:))

Screw the reformation and the renaissance; we gotta save our library:)) Heeheh. Jokes aside, when you think about knowledge lost prior....that statement is profound. It marks the uninterrupted accumulation of knowledge (or, as noted here, the re-accumulation of knowledge)

In Heron's case, enough "fact" is on record to establish his genius....BUT, I am starting to take exception to History, TLC, Discovery's (etc) myth-building where the record is non-existant. Speculation is fine, like the series on earth minus humans and the dramatic injection of dialogue in the Adams' series....but too often lately I have noticed that the speculative is mixed with fact in ways that the average person may not separate. To me, this bad. But hell, this is far from new: Cherry tree, anyone?

Metalurgy, hydraulics, mechanical advantage, steam power--all subject to the rise and fall of civilizations since they began. We know that societies focused on survival do not get too technical...but mature, stable ones can and will. Then, for a variety of reasons, those gains would be lost over and over.

It makes you wonder where we could be today if the press was invented a millenia earlier...

Joe M
Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 21:26:57 (ZULU)

JoeM: "We know that societies focused on survival do not get too technical...but mature, stable ones can and will. Then, for a variety

of reasons, those gains would be lost over and over...."

Because they get comfortable and do things to avoid disrupting that comfort....

Take care out there....

ON the Dem's side -- will it be O'blinton, or Clinboma?

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 23:07:46 (ZULU)

Ken...

>"ON the Dem's side -- will it be O'blinton, or Clinboma?"<

Whichever one it is, - it's gonna be real bad.

Some Republican insiders are saying that this might be the end of the Republican party (for all practical purposes) for 10 or 15 years, and I agree.

We will probably loose 30+ plus seats in the house, and the senate is looking at a veto proof win, which means that "O'blinton, or Clinboma" will get whatever they want, and theres nothing that the remaining repubs can do about it - they might as well stay home for the next 8 years...

I have never seen such a political screw-up in all the years, as Bush has done in the last 8 - all the gains in the '94 elections have been thrown away by a bunch of greedy assholes.

Unfortunately, Bush is too immature to do what is needed to salvage the party and the '08 elections. Too bad.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 23:41:17 (ZULU)

Hate to interrupt the great discussion on Heron and the Library of Alexandria..

Last night I was at a buddies grand-daughters Christening and learned of this.And if its a repost,my apologies.

Whitepages.com

Its basically a site listing all sorts of good intel,like phone number(s),address,maps to your house.Just enter your name in the fields and click search.It doesnt matter if you fill in the State you reside in or not as any listing under that name will come up and it shows what State,too.I just looked up my family members names and son of a bitch....They were listed.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, May 18, 2008, at 23:52:49 (ZULU)

re: whitepages.com

Looks like they build a larger cumulative database from "local" telco white pages. Detail for me is same as my telco white pages listing.

Did you know that you can have a listed phone number w/o a detailed address listed "for free"? This allows your friends to contact you from first principles, but doesn't allow less friendly folks to determine your exact location w/o your active co-operation.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 01:18:02 (ZULU)

rod...

>"Did you know that you can have a listed phone number w/o a detailed address listed "for free"? This allows your friends to contact you from first principles, but doesn't allow less friendly folks to determine your exact location w/o your active co-operation."<

How do you mean that?

I'm looking to kinda disappear in a few years - I want friends to be able to call and I don't need to hide from the FBI, but I want to drop through the cracks in the public's view (private investigators, etc), if you know what I mean.

I would welcome a thread on getting invisible in the states...

I have been advised that in a few years, if the legal things I am now pursuing, go well (for me), that I will need to "Get out of Dodge" and get scarce.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 01:47:14 (ZULU)

re: getting lost

Paladin Press has books on the topic, which includes many legal techniques.

Orderable thru Amazon or direct.

My phone number reference was as a cheaper alternative to an unlisted phone number, which has a fee associated. An unpublished address with the telco has no associated fee.

I believe I have a PDF on the "getting lost" topic that I'll send you.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 02:51:11 (ZULU)

CatBlaster: Take a look at my checklist post and make some comments. You wrote: "Whichever one it is, - it's gonna be real bad."

Yep. Get ready for "Change". That's a campaign promise that will be kept. Lots of things we take for granted will "change". Does the phrase, "unintended consequences" spring to mind?

CDC'
Monday, May 19, 2008, at 03:38:23 (ZULU)

Lito,

Don't think your going to drop off the grid anytime soon,what if we have questions.LOL

Also I found Im having a BOY guys,so I have not been shooting as much lately.He will be born august 17th.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, May 19, 2008, at 03:49:40 (ZULU)

rod,

"How's that for a functional cross-reference to Archimedes?" Dennis Miller would be so proud. ;-))

Finger.

When were you in Quang Tri? Reason I ask is because I was at beautiful downtown Phu Bai right down the road from there the second half of '68 and all of '69. One of the members of the gun club I belong to was there in Quang Tri in '69. He was a Marine helicopter pilot,

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 05:57:30 (ZULU)

Clicky. AWESOME video from a hunt with a guy packing some brass balls.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 08:34:12 (ZULU)

Click.

This guy's welcome in my camp ANY time. Dunno how many shots he took to stop this sow grizzly, but he's damn sure a hand with a gun.

Show this to the next stupid fuck that tells you to just pepper spray them.

Also: Veteran sees insurgents flying Mexican flag OVER the American flag. Liberates old glory with a Ka-Bar.: http://youtube.com/watch?v=nONjlZ8YMkA&feature=related

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 09:22:17 (ZULU)

I'm gonna fucking vomit. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 10:30:20 (ZULU)

jc,

I was in Quang Tri most of 69, was in Dong Ha most of 68 and Phu Bai 67, spent a few months outside of Danang in 66. If your friend was a pilot, he may have very well inserted my young butt into the bush back then. I went home October 69.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 12:25:43 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

>"Don't think your going to drop off the grid anytime soon, what if we have questions. LOL"<

Well, I'll have to disappearify "CatShooter" and reappear in a new alias that no one would suspect - like "KittyWhacker" ;)

I've had a State Police guy tell me that I was "... pushing it" by going after a sitting "Presiding Judge" for conspiracy and trial fixing.

He says, "What's going to happen with 10 years of trials that have to be re-heard? You're gonna make a lot of important people really pissed off!"

And I have a friend that's a retired lawyer (he retired because he got tired of using brown soap every night to wash the stink off)... he gave me a list of stuff I need to do, and the list raised the hair on the back of my neck.

I found two other guys that were victims of this bunch, so I have a cheering section - we're out for these bastard's blood.

rod - thanks for the tip on getting lost - I remember that from a while back and will get a copy.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 13:24:33 (ZULU)

Barrel cleaning, Par Deux...

As we left off last year, with our hero riding off into the sunset with dirty riffles... ;)

OK. Now I have more dirty riffles, and here's where I started this time.

A dirty Wilson factory barrel - not hand lapped, but pretty good as factory barrels go.

~100 rounds of 22-250 through it.

I plugged the barrel with chamber plugs (Go to Midway or Sinclair Int. and look for "chamber plugs).

Stood the riffle on it's butt and poured Hoppe's #9 in the barrel until it was filled.

Let it stand there for about 20 minutes, emptied it, and ran a patch through the bore.

NO GREEN STUFF - the #9 had dissolved all the copper jacket stuff without any effort.

The patch had black stuff on it. Ran a few more patches - a wet then a dry - very very very light gray.

So I ran a patch with "Slick 2000" on it - that's 'posed to be the current carbon killer of favor. I let it sit for the recommended 15 minutes, and ran a dry patch through again.

Nothing, nunja, nada - the barrel is squeekie clean.

So it appears that soaking the barrel in a copper dissolver without any physical agitation will remove ALL of the copper. It appears that the Hoppe's #9 also loosened all the black stuff (often called "carbon" but more likely a mix of powder residuals, ash from the primer and ash from partially burned powder).

So at this point I am saying to myself, "Self!... this is TOO easy".

I mean there's this poor schnook over on 6mmBR.com that posted on Monday that he was trying to get his barrel "really clean" for three days, and couldn't get it clean...

... he would brush it, then patch it and see all the dark stuff, so he would brush it, then patch it... sound familiar?... it does to me.

The thread lead to the common thing about carbon and copper being in layers like a cake... and some "experts" that have never tried anything else said that it took "special" procedures to clean a barrel. (Hmmmmmmmm where did I hear that before??).

Well, I'm not done, but at this point, brushes are looking less and less important in the process. They may not be excluded, but the old thing about brushing over and over is a total waste of time.

Tomorrow I'm gonna try to make some more dirty barrels in the name of science... I promise that I won't enjoy a minute of it.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 20:20:10 (ZULU)

Lito: You can only be hard to find, but no self respecting PI would find it too hard if you maintain your current ID. That said, if all you really need to do is to get beyond the reach of a state or local corrupt machine, then geography does the trick. But, from this date forward, consider accounting for your every moment in terms of airtight alibis.

I stood at the counter and looked a copenhagen 2-for-1 deal dead in the eye and I did not blink. But the little red devil on my left shoulder is still giving me shit for not blinking...this is hard as hell, and it has been a day past a week cold turkey.

The Howa and the older 3-9x loopy mildot scored a low-light yote under a full moon last evening. NV woulda been as overkill as the .308 appears to be at 220 yards (150gr litemag hornady SST tipped). Heheh. What a great little cheapo carry rifle! I want another one for no good reason other than to serve as a loaner for visitors--since that WAS the reason I got this one:)) Now it is my go-to truck-gun for farm chores, alongside the 44 of course.

While savage earned my recommendation for entry-level LR equipment years ago--I would also recommend these M1500s for the same---especially with the cross compatability of after market parts.

Joe M
Monday, May 19, 2008, at 21:04:02 (ZULU)

Optics country:

So I discovered today that I can see the cross-hairs of my telescopic site *much* better w/o my "distance vision" correction than with it. My distance vision correction (glasses) would be optimized for infinity. I was seeing double side-by-side vertical crosshairs and having grouping issues with my distance prescription.

Tried varying the focus of the scope, still much better cross-hair clarity w/o my distance vision correction.

I have lost close accomodation (being over 40), so I cannot read very effectively at 24" using my distance prescription.

So, what is the optimal correction to wear when using a telescopic site and why?

(a) Visual correction optimized for (say) 24" from your eye.

(b) Visual correction optimized for infinity.

I suspect this is a perfect question for 'Lito :-)

Thanks

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 21:51:37 (ZULU)

Lito: thinking about it--there are two ways to "get even" with you. Messing you up physically, or slamming you with the system. It seems more likely that these clowns will try to hang a false charge on you to discredit your claims. The alibi idea is a good one. Might wanna start a journal--times and places of where you go. Make phone calls while at home to people and places easily verified. List names of store clerks as well. Little, detailed, overly anal things. You never know what might come in handy one fine day.

As far as the physical direct action stuff--normal rules apply. Just don't think of home as a safe place to relax. mark doors on exit, check on return. Planted evidence is just as bad as ambush in the long run, and both are countered the same ways.

Start carrying a digital recorder too.

Joe M
Monday, May 19, 2008, at 21:52:17 (ZULU)

re: Barrel cleaning:

Lito, are you referring to "plain" Hoppes #9 Solvent, or Bench Rest 9 Copper Solvent? I'm not questioning your result, just confirming the materials used. I personally didn't find plain Hoppe's #9 to be very effective in dealing with guilding metal fouling build-up in the past (and went to other approaches as a result).

http://www.hoppes.com/products/solvents.html

http://www.hoppes.com/products/bench_rest9.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 22:04:15 (ZULU)

Lito-san,

I'd be interested to know how much Hoppe's you use, vs. staying with patches and brushes.

We can always estimate [(pi*d^2)/4]*[bbl. length], but i'd be interested to know about your consumption of Hoppe's. We could always buy Hoppe's by the gallon... with an atomizer for use on Saturday evenings....

Duman
Monday, May 19, 2008, at 22:35:22 (ZULU)

Joe M...

I do plan to use geography as the first step. What I am doing now against them won't come to fruition for some time... and my life is pretty "visible"... they won't catch me in a sleezy bar. I live a very closed and private life, something I learned a long time ago.

rod sent me some good info, and I will start that soon - I have about 38 years experence in being about 80% invisible already so the concepts are not new.

It will be hard to slam me with the system - even now, with my "normal precautions", in the custody trial, they wanted to find out my finances, and three lawyers couldn't find a thing - I appear penniless on paper, and there is no trail to follow - I have been paying cash for everything for a long time, and someone else pays my "check" things like car insurance.

The retired lawyer told me to keep a complete set of papers somewhere else... that got my attention. And (oddly enough) he said that instead of being secretive, I should be out allover the place with my information, so no one can think they can make the problem go away if I have a car accident... make sure that others have copies of everything, and that no one knows all the people.

So for the time being, I'm safe, it's just three or four years down the road that I would like to quietly get further and further away until, no one remembers who I am or what my last address was.

I'm good at setting up shells and Faux addresses and mail drops and that is SOP.

My house is covered, even when I'm not home - I have neighbors that are all over this place when I'm not here... there is always a car in the driveway, there is never a time when someone would think the house is empty... and there are enough guns in the house to hold off the Mexican army - on second thoughts, that would take a .22 rimfire :)

rod...

Unless you have astigmatism, it is always better to look through a scope bare eyed (or with neutral shooting glasses) than with correction. Looking through glasses, you are seeing through the upper left corner of the lens, not the part that the optometrist had in mind when he made the lenses.

And YES... I was referring to "Plain ol' Hoppe's #9" - not the BR jooce. I tried the BR jooce a long time ago, and found it whimpy!

I have a firm rule in my gun room - all gun chemicals have to smell good - I use #9 and G-96 spray oil.

I will marry any woman that wears either of these behind her ears (or "elsewhere")

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 22:37:40 (ZULU)

Joe M: What about getting a digital camera with a year/month/day/hour/minute timer? Put yourself in enough of the photos to establish your when&where.

CDC'
Monday, May 19, 2008, at 22:39:38 (ZULU)

CDC: Date stamps on pics are not valid for reference--you can set them to any time you like. I usually get default dates of 1999 whenever i change batteries and forget to zero out the feature:))

Freakin' big ol' thom just strutted thru my backyard. Peanut wanted to eat it. Bet that sucka went 30-32 pounds!

Joe M
Monday, May 19, 2008, at 22:58:33 (ZULU)

re: scope country

I have astigmatism in my strong-hand eye (that I use for scoped rifles), but even using the central portion of the corrective lense the riflescope cross-hair picture was still clearer with my naked eye.

Acknowledge that the corner of the corrective lense is not the best part :-(

(Rhetorical question) Why didn't someone tell me this before?

It's right up there with - focus on the front sight when shooting an iron-sighted pistol...

I was having this optical problem since at least spring 2007 - ouch!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 23:13:41 (ZULU)

Joe:

Thom? Please clarify?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 19, 2008, at 23:19:37 (ZULU)

Formally named: Thomas Izza Turkey:)) aka Tom.

This old boy dwarfed his harem and hanger-on jakes, by a long shot.

Joe M
Monday, May 19, 2008, at 23:35:03 (ZULU)

re: .223 Rem

Got to chrono/shoot for group my first Hornady 75g OTM / Varget loading today. Victoria Day holiday in Canada. Got a break in the weather, the sun actually came out part-way thru chrono phase. Bad news, so did the insects :-( Carlos Hathcock's comment about "the bubble" came to mind. I had earlier figured I would be fighting rain, so I had left the bug dope and sunblock behind. (We're just getting into the good weather locally). Big mistake on the bug dope. I did manage to shoot enough of the new load to confirm my 1:9 Rock button-rifled 20" barrel stabilizes the 75g OTM projectile properly. Grouping is promising, but I was also making my corrective lense discovery in parallel with that process - sigh :-(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Day

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 00:12:15 (ZULU)

Interesting 4 days!

Sitting at home Friday night eating dinner and my right arm goes all numb and tingly...NO BEER! Now I've had this happen before but ALWAYS first thing in the morning and it goes away after about 10-15 minutes. This was at 1800 and lasted 40+ minutes before I decide, DUH this ain't right think I'd better see about it! So after a 3 hour stay, in my own ER, head CT, EKG, Labs and a 4 view regular x-ray of my neck, the doc, thankfully a friend of mine, comes in and says..Ever been in a wreck or fall any injury to your neck of any kind, sports etc??? My answer was negative to all his questions! He shows me one of the X-rays and son of a gun there is a piece of bone in my neck in a place it shouldn't be!!

Sooo this afternoon I drive down to the Air Force Base to see my "Doc" and he looks at the x-rays, I had copies, and says "Gee I've never seen anything like this before!" So the plan is no lifting, pulling, pushing more than 40 lbs, request MRI of the neck and wait for approval, have MRI done then see "doc" again!

Thing is I never know when this is going to occur, it just happens, no obvious trigger, no specific time it lasts it just comes and goes!

Well until the MRI or it gets worse we shall see!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 01:47:27 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Hang in there. If that stuff is like cigarettes, and I assume it is, the cravings will decrease in intensity as well as frequency. I haven't had a Lucky Strike in over seven years. They still smell good; but it would only take one to get me hooked. If your wife doesn't shoot you for being an jerk due to nicotine withdrawal you'll make it just fine.

Sarge,

Maybe it was those little green men in Area 51! ;o))

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 03:59:38 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Think back to the early days in your Army career, there was a lot of stuff (tryin' to be nice) you had to go through both mentally and physically that was pretty serious stuff at the time and you made it through by force of will. In other words, you displayed great amounts of testicular and intestinal fortitude. You had to in order to succeed in your endeavors.

Just use that same force of will and the same testicular and intestinal fortitude you used earlier on beating the nicotine addiction withdrawal symptoms your dealing with now.

You made it back then and you can make it now. Just cowboy up. I beat it and so can you.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 05:54:17 (ZULU)

'Finger- (may I call you that?) Thanks for that vid. I've heard of that guys book from some friends of mine and I'll have a copy of it soon.

Joe- Is that Howa you mentioned the same rifle that Smith & Wesson used to market as a 1500? I'm not sure but I think it's the same and they used to make it for S&W.

Hang in there with the nicotene withdrawals man you'll be glad you did, but you know that already.

Bolt- Did you shoot in that match on Saturday? How'd you do?

I dug through my old stuff and found some high power score books from when I was younger. My last match, until a couple months ago, was at Ft. Benning in 1990. Unbelievable. Seems like a few years ago and I still remember the guys and the match. First one logged in was in 1984. My dad and I shot it together with a DCM loaned M1. I was a pizza faced, skinny ass 16 year old with big buck teeth wrapped in braces. I had been shooting smallbore in my ROTC rifle team but this was my first HP match. An M1 is very different than a 40-X rimfire with a 28" bull barrel. By the time I got to slow prone my lips were bleeding pretty good but it didn't really hurt and I was having a ball. Dad and his buds just loved that shit. Kid bleeding all over the stock and finished out the string with a decent score. They told stories about that for years. I wish he could be here for just one more match.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 06:05:07 (ZULU)

Sarge: "Gee I've never seen anything like this before!" sound the last words you want to hear from a doctor. Good luck.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 11:54:37 (ZULU)

Joe M - I wish I could share some life experiences to make your withdrawal a bit less difficult.

Let me see if I can sum it up succinctly...

Smoking and Chew cause cancer. Cancer rots you slowly from within. As you near the end of your very painful journey, you have to call the ambulance for your last ride...everything from that point forward is more painful, with no respite until you die. The young medics that attend you will look on your withered body lying there in the cot and think "there goes another one"...

So , in short, chew will transition you from a strong, self reliant, national hero..... to a pathetic, emaciated, rotting shadow of a person that, at best receives pity instead of admiration.

I hope I've made things easier....Peanut deserves a dad there to walk her down the aisle a few decades from now.

I'm sorry if this upsets folks that have had family members travel this path. That is not my intent.

medicjim
Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 14:08:36 (ZULU)

"...to walk her down the aisle a few decades from now."

So soon? How about a dozen decades???

Ya know, the scariest part about that scenario is how easily I ignored it over the years. Yeah; I know cancer is a likely outcome from my abuse of this product---but it was always the other guy who would fall---not me; I was indestructable:)) Even now that is not exactly why I quit: It was more about who (or what) called the shots in my life. I realized that copenhagen had assumed too much control. Also, since returning from overseas, I started getting "days" per can, then nearly a week. Even while powering down on usage, I could explain a hundred ways why I didn't wanna or need to quit. That pretty much summed up why I did.

MarcS: It could be; Howa makes rifles for a variety of sources over the years. Weatherby Vanguards are but one example. Who knows if i got a sweet one or if they are all decent? Actually, it shoots two loads great and several very poorly (huge differences)---finnicky. I just happened to have hit on the good ones right off the bat. Fit is pretty good, finish not so good (but better than stevens:))

Joe M
Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 17:01:40 (ZULU)

"So soon? How about a dozen decades???"

Ha, my little girl is gonna be six this fall and the wife is scheduled for a c-section early this June...gonna be a boy.

I've lost so many friends to disease, accident, job related stuff and cancer lately that I'm scared. Near as I can tell, my immortality wore off somewhere around age 35...I'm 42 now and it sucks. I looked down about a year ago and there was a belly sticking out....where the f*ck did that come from! I'm up to 5 miles running every other day and it still sucks...but I'm determined to make it till both mine are at least on their own...

medicjim
Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 18:04:53 (ZULU)

White page listings: mine don’t come up, but the available history does. That is, until I went “off the grid”. Nothing available since 2002, nothing accurate since early 2001. Almost as if someone planned it that way. I don’t know how to do anything about past records, but I sure the heck don’t have any present ones – and won’t create future ones.

Doing so isn’t that hard, but it does take persistence, diligence, and sometimes some extra expense. LE knows where I am – they can read it off my explosives handlers permit - but I’m not keeping a low profile with them in mind. Even so, I don’t keep my eggs all in one basket. That’s just stupid to do – even if your basket is a fireproof “industrial” bank model.

In the end, it’s not a question of if one is paranoid. It’s a question if one is paranoid enough.

That having been said, I’m gonna post a link everyone ought to watch – and I invite / request any (constructive) comment from active LE! This is a video taped law professor’s lecture, he splits the time with a retired detective (detective starts just past half-way through, and agrees with virtually everything). It’s called DON’T TALK TO THE POLICE. http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

JK – good stuff. Now the work begins.

Sarge, if you really were trying to get out of the BobbyWorld experience, there’d be easier ways to do it than messing up your neck! HA! Really, I hope everything comes out fine my friend... if there’s anything I can do, say so!

Spent the weekend on the shooting range from early-early to late-late both days. All I got to fire was a staplegun. Seeing progress in others is a great thing. Getting gear working for others is great. Walking off the range without having fired a shot sucks rocks.

Bravo
Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 19:25:55 (ZULU)

Bravo: I know I've been spending too much time teaching and not enough time shooting when I can speed-load a stapler faster than my pistol.

However, I'd rather be teaching than shooting - especially since our clients are mostly people who will be going in harm's way on our behalf.

My business card says, "Training Freedom's Defenders to Take Out the Trash."

There's a lot of satisfaction in that.

Tobacco country: I quit smoking 20 years ago. When I get to be 80, in 18 more years, I going to start again.

Lindy
On the road somewhere in North America, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 21:36:55 (ZULU)

"Tobacco country: I quit smoking 20 years ago. When I get to be 80, in 18 more years, I going to start again."

There is wisdom for ya! Seriously; I just told myself that I can dip again on my 80th b-day, and I felt better about the whole thing:))

Joe M
Tuesday, May 20, 2008, at 22:58:05 (ZULU)

Bravo,

That was most informative and I learned a bunch. Thank you very much.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 21, 2008, at 01:16:34 (ZULU)

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/bush-apologizes-for-quran-shooting/20080520092609990001

Sniper shoots quaran and is disciplined and moved out of theater.

LTChip
Wednesday, May 21, 2008, at 05:23:37 (ZULU)

How to get kicked out of a warzone. Clicky.

Sorry, Chip, posted before I got this far. That's some shit, ain't it?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 21, 2008, at 07:04:56 (ZULU)

I still can't believe it...

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, May 21, 2008, at 09:40:42 (ZULU)

Ted Kennedy...

Couldn't happen to a more deserving guy!

I know, that wasn't nice to say.

Now if only Sarah and friends could join the party.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 21, 2008, at 13:36:07 (ZULU)

'Lito said:

"Now if only Sarah and friends could join the party."

That would imply they weren't already affected by a neurological deficit...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, May 21, 2008, at 16:43:24 (ZULU)

rod...

Naw, but she has lung cancer, so I figure that since we are starting to loose them, they might as well go together :)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 21, 2008, at 23:58:18 (ZULU)

'Lito-roster email posted. SC in subject line in re off grid.

Travis-not blip. Look at T shirt, both color and fit-especially arm length. Also look at lack of smudging on hand/arm closer to fireworks than face at time of "activation".

WR Moore
Thursday, May 22, 2008, at 01:07:01 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Maybe we should send her some Cohibas, and a note, saying, "No hard feelings"?

WR Moore,

I DON'T CARE !!! It's still funny. And you obviously haven't enough to do. Go pull some weeds.

Guys,

Had to shoot my oldest remaining friend today. Old Bud (the horse) was down, and couldn't get up. He'd been having hip problems for some time, and was in his 30's. First time I ever cried about killing something. Dad got him as a yearling when I was a toddler, so we grew up together. When I pulled the trigger, I didn't even feel the recoil. I just started blubbering like a damned little kid.

I think I'll always miss the way he'd "talk" to me when I brought out his grain. He'd looked awfully sorry for some time, being as old as he was, but he always seemed happy, so I kept putting off putting him down for as long as I could. It damn near killed me when my mare started looking around for him. They'd been together for about 18 years.

After losing Dad last fall, then having my favorite pup and 3 others die recently from distemper then this, I'm about ready to go live in the desert for a while, where pretty much everything else is already dead.

Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 22, 2008, at 04:17:28 (ZULU)

Don't be giving away good (well, moderately) cigars. White Owls from Walgreens will do just fine.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, May 22, 2008, at 05:08:57 (ZULU)

Travis-it's called 12 hr night shifts......

Very sorry to hear about your problems with critters. Had to put a couple of mares down last year....thank God they weren't the ones who nibble my ears and so on.........

WR Moore
Thursday, May 22, 2008, at 06:03:05 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

Yeah, when they've been a friend for 30 years, it's hard to do. I wish to hell there woulda been someone else around to hook up the log chain, drag him off, and bury him. Every time I looked in my side mirrors, it kinda got to me.

I guess all this death is good training for later years, when you check up on your friends in the obituary section.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 22, 2008, at 07:59:04 (ZULU)

Third Court of Appeals in Austin, Texas rules the the facts were "legally insufficient" to remove children from FLDS compound in Texas. It did not order the immediate return of the children.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 22, 2008, at 19:38:02 (ZULU)

Sarge,

I had a about the same thing going on with my left arm. I would get tingly feelings in it and my little finger and the one next to it were going numb.

Then I started to get some really bad pain along with it in my arm and shoulder blade area. I had three bad disc's in my neck. They were pinching nerves. I finally had surgery and have three disc's fused togeather now with a plate.

I am now pain free but tying to shoot prone for any length of time really sucks. I get headaches an have a limited range of mobility looking over my shoulder but other than that I feel great!! Hope you get yours fixed and have no more problems I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Catman,

"Know it all old fart" now thats some funny shit!!!!!!(HA) Double (HA) On barrel cleaning, you need to try the foam cleaner "Wipeout" I was turned on to it about 6 months ago and it flat works!!!! I tried other foam cleaners but was not impressed but this is one that will clean your rifle. Hope all is well with you!!

Pat
Thursday, May 22, 2008, at 20:10:09 (ZULU)

Anyone tried drywall sanding screen to get the lead out of the throats on handguns?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 07:39:26 (ZULU)

Travis....I don't even use it on drywall! LOL. Joe will get that one, it's a joke...

Chuck Hunt......maybe it's just me, but isn't there something terribly, fundamentally wrong with the fact that a court found that the authorities tore all those kids away from their momma without sufficient cause, yet hasn't returned them????? I read all the articles.....I saw one after a few weeks had passed, it said that the women who allegedly called in the complaint had yet to be found and interviewed, and that the call may have actually originated in Colorado or something. Hmmmmm. Isn't that strange? And it's funny how all they interviewed were feminists and humanists in the articles to expound on how terrible these people were.....oh my GOD!!! How funny, and sad, that I recognized all sorts of very plain biblical commands regarding family life in these articles about how horrible this sect was. Since when is it strange, illegal, and abusive for men and women to live the way the bible commands???? What CPS did to these families is horrible. Because some of these women were married and got pregnant while underage, they sieze 600 kids, none of whom were in immediate danger, and split them up all over the state!!!

Here is the latest from AP.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMIST_RETREAT?SITE=WIMIL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

As a four year veteran of foster homes when I was a kid, I can tell you this. I had it much better with my mom (who's faults were drinking and issues related to drinking) than I did in any foster home. I guarantee you, those kids had it much better on that ranch than they do right now, and it wouldn't have happened if the government (we're here to help!) hadn't stepped in like the fucking Gestapo.

[soapbox mode] Those people may have lived a different moral and religious code than most, but it really looks to me like because they don't fit the modern/secular/humanistic way of life that our handlers want us to live, they are being excessively persecuted. IMO, what the government is doing to those people is as wrong, if not more so, than the way those people are living. I don't think anyone was held in their compound at gunpoint. They were there of their own free will.

Somehow, I don't see those people:

- doing drugs

- boozing it up

- wrecking cars

- killing other people on the highways

- gangbanging

- kids shooting gobs of other kids in their classrooms.

Don't see any husbands/fathers abandoning their wives and kids to a life of welfare and struggle either. Imagine that!!!! Have we hit on a light bulb here?

There is something really screwed up when foreigners can come here, practice fundamentalist Islam, and are vehemently protected and defended by the liberals and the government........yet the same people and institutions vehemently prosecute fundamentalist Christians.......even when they don't really know what they are prosecuting them for. Since when, in America, is it illegal to live in a large group according to a strict interpretation of the bible?????? I have no judgement one way or another on having multiple wives.....I can't handle just one. But for God's sake, prosecute the child rapists and remove them from the community, give all the kids back to their mommas, butt out, and leave those people the hell alone. [/soapbox mode]

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 08:41:46 (ZULU)

Agreed.

And as for the underage kids marrying each other, I don't necessarily agree with it, but I certainly don't see the harm.

It certainly can't be any worse than the little whores we have running around everywhere anymore that have been ridden more than Secretariat.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 08:53:05 (ZULU)

Geoff,

I almost forgot to chime in on foster parents. I had some world class losers.

One was so bad I was hiking 6 miles or so into town, just for some decent food. I wouldn't have let goats shit in that house. When I reported the conditions to the SRS, I got sent to a residential facility, where I was the only one there without an arrest record, and one of only a handful of white kids.

If they thought that was the way to keep me from getting into fights, that was seriously flawed thinking. If they wanted to make me more dangerous, with a shorter fuse, they succeeded.

The scumbags that run Youthville ripped me off for most of the money I made working, and they'd break or steal pretty much anything of value you had. They're some real criminals.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 09:00:52 (ZULU)

Travis, Deleading anything ,"Copper Chore Girl", The stuff the womens use to clean pots and pans works well.

Wind a bit around a bore brush and have at it !

A tip is to degrease everything as the Copper will pick up Lead better without any oil in the way.

Copper is soft and won't damage the steel.

No sand screen ,PLEASE !!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, USA - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 11:36:23 (ZULU)

Geoff and Travis...

It's because they didn't want government help, that the government went in and "helped" them.

Lookie...

In many states it's legal to get married at 14 - in my state, it's legal at 16 (and Connecticut is a modern, "liberal" state). Last I looked, that's "Underage teenagers"

In this country, most black teen and sub-teenage girls get pregnant, and the state L-O-V-E-S them. They get free stuff, free apartments, social workers (who try and fail to keep them from getting pregnant again), and no one raids the parents house, no one storm troops anything - nothing on TV, and 80% of black teenagers have children out of wedlock - and no one gives a shit... cuz it keeps the government in in control, and gives all those social workers a job - they have "control".

But these LDS folks have said, "Fuck you" to the government, "We don't want you or your values, we have better!", and like Geoff said, they have none of the plagues of modern day living... no drive-by shootings, no drugs, no yadda yadda yadda.

I don't go along with all of their stuff - but that's America - no one promised me that I would approve of everything I see other's do. And no one told them that they had to approve of everything I do.

If you went to the store and asked for a dozen eggs, a loaf of bread, and a package of bacon, and got got home and found in the bag, two dozen eggs, two loaves of bread, and five packages of bacon, you'd think WHAT A BARGAIN...

... but the only bargain in this country we have now is the government - we get more government than we want or asked for - it multiplies while you sleep, like rabbits... and they shit on us like rabbits too!

What I do see is... the government raiding people that live differently - just like Waco. You want to be religious and live apart from "us", well that shit doesn't go.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 12:53:37 (ZULU)

Travis

I use bronze wool to remove lead from the bore of my hand guns. Bronze wool is softer than steel wool and contains on oil.

I wrap it around an under sized brush. I got mine from a friend who runs a machine shop, but i'm sure Brownells would handle it.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 12:53:41 (ZULU)

Standard trip-and-fall scenario, with a strange injurious outcome. OK, so I get mega-style points for incorporating a puppy, a kennel and a bar stool into the fall--but basically it was a from-feet-to-floor thing.

That resulted in a sprained and cracked (break) ankle. WTF? I would understand a wrist injury from catching myself, and the two knee twists/ bruises are understandable--but what was my ankle doing in the mix? Crutches again...

At least the weather allows for some biking. I won't be jogging for a bit now:((

Joe M
Friday, May 23, 2008, at 16:00:18 (ZULU)

Global warming article from Steven Milloy of JunkScience.com.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357201,00.html

Here's a little from that article-

"In a campaign stop in Oregon, Obama called for the U.S. to "lead by example" on global warming. "We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say 'OK.' … That’s not leadership. That’s not going to happen," he said.

A President Obama apparently would decide how to regulate the pantries, thermostats and modes of personal transportation of his fellow Americans based on the emotional temperature of every non-American who happens to harbor an opinion on how we should live."

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area,, CA, - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 16:27:25 (ZULU)

Geoff....amen, brother. Amen. And don't even get me started on Waco. I'd like to meet Mr. Horiuchi in a dark alley. Or a well-lit street.

When the welfare state allows people to let their 12 and 13-year-old daughters to get pregnant and not do a damn thing, then takes children from LEGALLY married parents because of them being a "cult", it's time to start rethinking the social compact. I'm going to stop there.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 16:31:31 (ZULU)

'Lito:

At least you and I aren't getting as much government as we're paying for :-(

Lead removal from bores:

Miracle Cloth cut into patches works well.

Sold in grocery stores or this web site:

http://miraclecloth.com/

(Also sold at exorbidant prices by firearm cleaning supply vendor).

Lewis Lead Remover also works well.

Source from gunshops and Brownells, among others. Uses a Copper mesh screen and expander plug to create close fit.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 16:32:59 (ZULU)

FNC commentators seem to think that it is better to err on the side of gestapo than the constitution when it comes to children. What a great test case for your views on liberty: if it is OK to stomp all over someone else's rights when the slightless possibility may exist for wrongdoing---who then sets the standards on what alleged wrongdoing gets the nazi-treatment? Slippery-slope arguments used to be painted as "alarmist" in these situtations; while the proponents of pet causes (who can argue with child welfare?) say that "this is a special case." Well, by now either you agree that one liberty let go leads to the next--or you live under a rock. The slippery slope argument that was derided in the 80s and 90s is starting to look like a winner, eh?

And I came out against this seizure immediately--while even a few here countered that the allegation, regardless of the source--made it OK.

Told you so...welcome to my world...here's your tin hat:))

(edit due to an immature taunt)

"told you so?"---that sounds condescending after re-reading. My intent was to say that we cannot allow ANY deviations from the burden of the 4th ammendment on the government---regardless of the emotional tugs on our heartstrings.

It all comes down to how you answer this question:

Which is worse, an innocent man hanged or a guilty man walking free?

Joe M
Friday, May 23, 2008, at 16:57:49 (ZULU)

MarcS: "...… and then just expect that other countries are going to say 'OK.' … That’s not leadership."

If you accept Obama's logic, yielding control of our lives to people who do not like us IS leadership.

His handlers should screen all questions. Withot a script this guy reverts to his Ivy League re-education camp programming.

Reagan would have smashed this empty demagogue like a beer can on the interstate. But we are being "led" by McCain. There is no point in belaboring that fact.

Oil is double what it was last year. Congress is attacking oil companies which can only lower the incentives to invest in those companies. That raises prices.

Any other potential source of energy has been stopped by the greenies.

If the Dems win control of both houses - and put this empty suit in the White House - life in the US has the potential of being very different than it is now. Open borders, energy, international respect for our military, throwing the Middle East to Jihadis, nationalization of medical care,...we can go on and on.

All of you already knew all this, so the preceeding was my political rant for this election year.

CDC'
Friday, May 23, 2008, at 17:04:30 (ZULU)

CDC: Yeah, we will have all of those issues. I see it coming, in fact. McCain or Obama--the difference lies in "when" all this comes to pass.

While many see this as a handful of disappointing social changes--I see it as a confluence of inter-related disasters coming to a head: Oil, or "cheap energy" is as pervasive a thread in society as "people" are; with cheap energy we feed 6.6 billion appetites. The dollar contributes to rising prices by falling in value. Congressional overspending already is a driving force in this downward spiral---socialization of healthcare (and big oil?) will only add to this pressure. Unchecked immigration dilutes the impact of tax levies bringing the free lunch to the newly created needy; not counting the downward pressure cheap labor has on real wages for those of abiding by the rules. Unemployment as a measure will quickly be meaningless as "underemployed" becomes the real problem for many...each and every "fix" proposed by the left will feed on itself.

In short, we'll collapse the house of cards.

Using european style socialism as a model is fine, as long as it is abstractly considered. But, to do so while disregarding our debt load overseas and the fact that european socialism is funded in part by the US taxpayers (care to refute that? Just think in terms of whose troops live where)--that is just asking for disasterous outcomes.

Heheh. They'll get what they asked for: Vote for a change in your wallet! And watch the wallet empty itself out:)) well...that is CHANGE you can believe in. Changing dollars to pennies...

I crack me up...cuz that anology ---isn't. It is the potential in this race.

Of course, there's always the other hand: Backlash. This country is famous for its ocsillations (prohibition is one of the waider swings)--and backlashes against the excesses left or right. Mexico, of all things, could provoke its own backlash against the dems and McCain: Immigration illegally across that border is bad enough---but violence spilling over is quite another. If Mexico cannot effectively crackdown on these cartels, do you think the cartels will stay south??? Click.

(the war on drugs is a waste of time and treasure, FWIW---and to deny the destabilization thru our war on drugs of our neighbor is wishful nonthinking)

It's a race to see what flies apart in our faces first! Hopefully, any one issue will on its own--before we tie them all together in a suicide pact of socialism:))

I still think we will crash the economy and ride a wave of hellish social breakdown. But I am pessimistic on the wisdom of this nation's citizen/ subjects...

Joe M
Friday, May 23, 2008, at 17:29:16 (ZULU)

I'm about a third of the way through "Unintended Consequences". That Henry Bowman is sure a lucky little fucker! 20mm Solothurn? Hell, I never had adecent .22, until I'd been on my own quite a while!

Also,

Dammit, Joe! It's horseback riding/hiking/fishing season! No more "extreme tumbling" while juggling a dog, two cats in a washtub, and flaming chainsaws! You can be layed up during Varmint and duck season, when you just have to sit there!!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 19:24:41 (ZULU)

while on the subject...an article on commodities' surge in prices (brass and lead, for example, reflects this). Click.

Joe M
Friday, May 23, 2008, at 19:27:25 (ZULU)

Hahaha.....OMG. I am rolling here. Vote for "change"....we won't tell you what kind of change you are voting for until later!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, May 23, 2008, at 19:47:48 (ZULU)

I forgot to mention food. This stupid ethanol/corn subsidy is madness.

https://www.intrade.com/ is a betting exchange. Among other things, they have a market for politics futures. Markets are the best way to assimilate information.

CDC'
Friday, May 23, 2008, at 20:25:33 (ZULU)

Click for another politics futures market. The last I heard, this market and the market from the previous post, give much better predictions than you get from any poll.

From IEM's site:

"The IEM is an on-line futures market where contract payoffs are based on real-world events such as political outcomes, companies' earnings per share (EPS), and stock price returns. The market is operated by University of Iowa Henry B. Tippie College of Business faculty as an educational and reseach project."

CDC'
Friday, May 23, 2008, at 20:34:27 (ZULU)

There have been many times when I've been angry about politics and/or the state of our nation. This is the first time I've been frightened.

On a lighter note (and I apologize in advance for bringing up a beaten subject)... I've read many posts about why you should or should not use moly and as I remember most here don't like it. I thought what the hell I'll try it it's only a barrel and they get replaced anyway. So after about 400 rounds through my GAP .243 I decided to give it a thorough cleaning. Now, how in the hell are you supposed to get this shit out of a barrel? After all of the Shooter's Choice and Sweet's I tried a little JB compound. Seemed to work 'cuz black peanut butter came out so I tried a little more...then a little, or maybe alot, more. Eight patches of back and forth short stroking all the way out of the muzzle and it's still black peanut butter. I got tired and gave up on it right there. Seriously is there a trick to getting it out?

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, May 24, 2008, at 04:33:39 (ZULU)

MarcS

I had the bright idea of using Moly in my 454 a few years ago, and like you i didn't like it.

What worked for me was hot water and dish soap, and a lot of elbow grease.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, May 24, 2008, at 11:59:58 (ZULU)

MarcS...

>" There have been many times when I've been angry about politics and/or the state of our nation. This is the first time I've been frightened."<

That is an excellent way of putting it - and I feel the same way.

It doesn't make any difference who wins, we're FUCKED big time.

>"... So after about 400 rounds through my GAP .243 I decided to give it a thorough cleaning. Now, how in the hell are you supposed to get this shit out of a barrel? After all of the Shooter's Choice and Sweet's I tried a little JB compound. Seemed to work 'cuz black peanut butter came out so I tried a little more...then a little, or maybe a lot more. Eight patches of back and forth short stroking all the way out of the muzzle and it's still black peanut butter. I got tired and gave up on it right there."<

See - next time you'll listen to us ;)))

>"Seriously is there a trick to getting it out?"<

Well, it's "secret handshake" stuff. so I shouldn't tell you.

Send that POS crappy stick to me and I will get it out for you.

It might take a few years cuz it's real hard to do. ;)

If you don't fall for that one, then get a brass brush and some Hoppe's #9 and scrub it for a while - 20 or 30 strokes, then wet patch it four or five times, then dry patch it, and go shoot.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 24, 2008, at 14:05:59 (ZULU)

I'll pass on the soap and water 'cuz I'm way too lazy for all of that. I'm out of the magical #9 jooce so I'll just run more SC through it with patches and brushes. I'll do that until I'm tired of it and that's what it will be. I'm at 500 rounds with it now and I expect I'm probably one third through it's life anyway.

I'm almost finished with my first and last moly experiment.

Off to my local HP match.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, May 24, 2008, at 15:33:09 (ZULU)

Gives new meaning to " Air Assualt " !!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j-66AcTo9TU&feature=related

Regards,

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, Usa - Saturday, May 24, 2008, at 15:51:43 (ZULU)

CDC: When the government's own defense of its subsidies begin with misdirection---you know it is untenable. But the government can be counted on to do one thing without fail: Reinforce failure! Education spending at all time hoighs per pupil (and yes, this is adjusted for inflation) still isn't enough? Why then, just spend more for the same! Just add money---don't change anything else. is there anything that does not fit this pattern since the 40s?

The missing section of the horrible farm bill cracks me up. Somewhere, there is an aide that deserves the freedom medal for that trick:))

On lighter note, but only *slightly* more related to our topic: Some morons (of the doctorate variety) are suing to keep the new euro super-collider turned off--for fear it could create a microscopic black hole that would eventually devour the earth. Hmmm. The most massive star burns out, and the shock waves of gravity colliding with the electron's repelling forces either result in collapse to this 'hole"--or, the resulting splashes of matter away from the center leads instead to a neutron star...in either case, how in the hell will a micro-sized beam of energy (protons, at that) develop the mass necessary to collapse into perfect density?

These are the same idiots that cannot tell you where rain will fall tomorrow but are happy to predict the melting of icecaps a hundred years hence...psuedo scientists...ha.

Bah. Humbug. I am no physicist, or climatologist--but science is never "settled"--so those who say it is my warning bell for the idiocy to follow....

Joe M
Saturday, May 24, 2008, at 17:22:32 (ZULU)

High-energy physics country:

Joe:

Google "Quantum black hole" for more reading on the topic.

Stephen Hawking said years ago that quantum black holes rapidly evaporate, so unless you get it moving really fast too so that it can scoop a bunch of other matter up, it will go poof before it becomes a threat.

The part that urks me the most about the scientific opponents is that they didn't start a concerted legal action until *after* the massive investments in the hardware were made. If they were really serious about the issue, shouldn't they have at least *tried* during the planing or early construction phases? It's not like such a mega-science project was done with any kind of secrecy...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 24, 2008, at 18:01:21 (ZULU)

I'm watching "No Country For Old Men". WTF kinda silencer does the bad guy have on his shotgun? I need one of those!

Also, what kida shotgun does the main character have?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 24, 2008, at 19:34:42 (ZULU)

Optics Country:

The telescopic sight eyepiece focus adjustment is what I needed to tune so that my distance prescription was compatible with having the reticle cross-hairs in sharper focus. A shooting buddy explained to me that the eyepiece adjustment uses a very fine pitch thread on the Leupold, so several complete turns are often necessary.

With my Leupold scopes, I found that I had to make 5 complete CCW rotations to change the adjustment from the factory setting. For those keeping score, my distance prescription is currently around -1.5 diopters for my strong-side eye. If my prescription diopter was significantly larger, I could have run out of adjustment range on the Leupold.

The downside of adjusting my optics is that now my sticks are proprietary to my visual correction :-( The upside is that I should be able to group much better, now that I can again see the cross-hairs in sharper focus. I've been having problems with this for at least a year.

This is the Leupold answer item on the topic:

http://www2.leupold.com/resources/MyInfo81/Answerbook/findanswers.aspx

How do I Focus the Eyepiece of my Leupold?

Focusing the Reticle Have you ever looked through a scope and had the reticle seem soft or fuzzy? If so, this means the eyepiece is not properly adjusted to your eye. Focusing is simple with Leupold scopes, because they have a generous focusing range, and because no tools are required. Just follow these steps: Secure the scope and firearm in a firm rest. Point the scope at a light colored background object. With the scope approximately four inches from your eye the reticle should appear sharp and crisp; if it does not, it is necessary to adjust the focus by means of the eyepiece. If your Leupold scope is one of our models with an eyepiece that has a lock ring, follow these simple steps: 1. Grasp the eyepiece with your hand and back it away from the lock ring. Once the lock ring is free from the eyepiece, turn it clockwise away from the eyepiece to keep it out of the way during the adjustment. 2. If you tend to hold things away from yourself to see them clearly (you are far-sighted) turn the eyepiece counter-clockwise by three or four turns. If you hold things close to yourself to see them clearly (you are near-sighted) turn the eyepiece clockwise by three of four turns. 3. Looking through the scope when pointed at the sky, take a few quick glances at the reticle. The focus of the reticle should be noticeably different from when you started. Continue this process until the reticle appears clear and sharp. 4. When you are satisfied with the image of the reticle, turn the lock ring so that it rests firmly against the eyepiece. If your Leupold scope is one of our models with a fast-focus eyepiece, follow these simple steps: 1. All adjustment is made with the eyepiece. 2. Look through the scope with quick glances while focusing the reticle image. If you tend to hold things away from yourself to see them clearly (far-sighted) turn the eyepiece ring counter-clockwise until the reticle is clear and sharp. If you hold them close to yourself to see them clearly (near-sighted) turn the eyepiece ring clockwise until the reticle is sharp and clear. If your eyesight changes, readjust the eyepiece. As we age, eyesight normally changes. You may want to check the sharpness of the reticle on your scope every few years to ensure it is still adjusted correctly for your eye. NOTE: To protect the integrity of the waterproof seal of every Leupold Golden Ring scope, an internal mechanism prevents the eyepiece from coming off the scope.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 00:06:13 (ZULU)

"Paranoia…………the rational reaction to the realization of reality."

Can't take credit, been reading too much here lately.

Philosophy 101, Bolt out!

Bolt
Somewhere in darkest........, NC, - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 02:36:20 (ZULU)

government...

Insanity: Repeating the same behavior and expecting different results

Seems to be a common theme in many gov't programs too :-(

"...that didn't work. Let's increase the budget and do more of it, that should fix it!"

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 03:17:52 (ZULU)

Joe, Mark S, Litto, CDC,

Just.. Damn. Are we to do all this just to see the nation fall to apathy? I keep wanting to poke a hole in your predictions, but can't. The only thing I have to fall back on is: "All things work for the good of those who love the Lord." But that doesn't mean there won't be much pain & loss along the way. This life is battle, if scripture is to be believed.

You guys have the ticklish feeling going in the middle of my back: the one that says CK6. Gotta do some thinking & planning.

God bless these blind morons we've elected (all of them). They'd better hope nothing happens to my family: gloves'd be off then.

SSG Mac
Horatio on the bridge... as Rome burns, - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 03:40:42 (ZULU)

MarcS,

Mix some Shooter's Choice about 50/50 with Kroil or Marvel Mystery Oil. Run a couple of patches soaked with the mixture through the bore, then wrap a wet patch around a slightly undersized brush and start scrubbing. It'll work better than Shooter's Choice alone.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 06:12:31 (ZULU)

Gents,

Sorry I haven't been jumping in much, things have been busy with getting everything ready to head home, then getting things turned in and dealing with all the bureaucratic nonsense that occurs once all that is finished. Finally got some time to breath, headed home to get my guns to fill the new safe I broke down and purchased... been out chasing chucks and teaching my 3 year old rotty that when Daddy says come he doesn't mean when YOU want... Especially after having to chase her around a neighbors house next to a busy country road. So I resorted to a Shock collar, it took a surprisingly short amount of time for her to realize that Come means NOW or there are consequences... Wouldn't you know it the first time she ever comes immediately when I call her she does 2 thousand dollars or so damage to a Prius that decided to do 60 to 70 down the county road that runs between a couple houses... She got a couple scratches and a free ride as she manage to do 2 complete loops through the air and landed atleast 30 feet from impact( this according to the retired Trooper who watched it) It took almost 100 to 120 yards for the prius to completely stop ( we were lazing things around the house with my new range finder) Drove her to the vet who pronounced her "ok" but watch her for a day or so. Lucky driver, I was more concerned with getting my pup to the doc than expressing my displeasure over his driving habits and attitude... He wasn't happy about the damage his car sustained.

So moral of the story is this... sometimes they listen immediately to what you say... sometimes its not always to the best though.

I guess we are going to start working on STOP so we don't have to worry about her not understanding directions at crucial moments.

Anyways Shock collars work FAST and when in conjunction with treats and praise aren't a bad way to go... just remember not to over do it...

As to the economy... Beans bullets bandaids... guns and silver too... things to maybe have around JUST IN CASE...

Rant off

Morgue back to lurking...

EDITED TO ADD

I just talked to the Deputy who responded and who is writing it up and the driver claims 40 MPH, The deputy wants to know what the vet bills are when we hear from the Vet, get this because he wants it in the report in case things go to CIVIL litigation... Thats right it sounds like the A$$hat can fly through the neighborhood (4 or so houses) hit my dog, then sue me to get the money to fix HIS car...

Of course I have reprimanded my puppy... I told her to quite trying to bring a prius' home... I don't need a pile of tin that bad... :D

Mourge
SD, Ca, - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 06:46:40 (ZULU)

morgue: That's a durable dog.

SSG Mac: Any long-time reader of this board knows not to take anything I say too seriously. My personal prospects are gloomy. It colors my judgement.

Speaking of laying in a supply of beans, do any of you gentlemen know of a single inexpensive food for humans?

CDC'
Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 10:16:20 (ZULU)

Morgue,

I'd got with "DOWN", rather than, "Stop". When you make 'em go belly down, they tend to understand better that it's time to lock it up and await orders.

When teaching a dog "DOWN", NEVER scratch their belly. It seems to make them think every time you give that command, it's time to play, roll over, and smear muddy paws on your pants. That's a damn hard habit to break.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 10:39:46 (ZULU)

"I just talked to the Deputy who responded and who is writing it up and the driver claims 40 MPH, The deputy wants to know what the vet bills are when we hear from the Vet, get this because he wants it in the report in case things go to CIVIL litigation... Thats right it sounds like the A$$hat can fly through the neighborhood (4 or so houses) hit my dog, then sue me to get the money to fix HIS car..."

Mourge: Here's an idear -- get with that Deputy and Judge. Arrange for one of those speed trailer thingies that measure and display your speed when you're passsing through that neighborhood - however - have the judge also order the "driver" of that prius to wear the shock collar when driving... and of course -- have the radar trailer trigger the shock collar when the set speed is exceeded.... :))

Take care all,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 13:33:58 (ZULU)

Trav,

Yeah she does down and sit pretty good but they are in the same boat come used to be... only when she is close and she knows theres something in it for her... So i am going to have to work on it with a little reminder from the collar that when I say Down, sit, or wait that I am actually serious.

The biggest issue is that she was pampered while I was gone and she got used to being able to do things in her own time. My X of course SAYS that she never had a problem getting her to obey but I know what type of crock that is. Now I get to reverse everything and train her to obey when I want her too.

I just never expected that my training her to respond when I say it would put her INTO traffic. I mean heck the whole reason I went to the collar to train her was so that she would respond NOW and stay out of traffic...

This morning she seems a little sore but other than that she seems ok, time will tell but I think her hard head actually saved her.

Ken, I think that would be a great idea, getting it into fruition would be near impossible out here on the west coast. If it had been a kid that was hit they could have downloaded his speed from the tatal tail chip in the car but they won't bother with it being a dog. Especially one that just got a couple lumps and bumps.

I was asking questions a few months ago about 338-06 cause I was interested in projecting one... I decided that if I am going to be able to pick up a big bore at a decent price its now or never so most of my projects got pushed back again. On the bright side I will have a Big bore in the near future...

Mourge
SD, Ca, - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 14:04:44 (ZULU)

Morgue,

Glad she's doing O.K. Maybe that double flip will keep her off the road. Several years back my Alaskan Malamute got clipped by the UPS truck. Fortunately he was only bruised. From that day until the day he died the sound of that truck would make him head for the breezeway at a dead run. He also stayed off the road.

Cheers & welcome home,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 17:05:22 (ZULU)

Mourge,

If your not doing so already,you could also try training in German.Alot of Rott owners train in thier dogs in German AND English.German is a more gutteral language so the commands when spoken sound harsher.Reeinforceing the idea it needs to be done,Now!!....Plus it gives you the added benefit of having control over the dog when theres alot of people around who dont know what your telling the dog.Unless of course they understand German too.Rotties are pretty smart and I had no problems training my own in 2 languages.He did very well with it.It didnt take very long for him to adjust too the German commands,either.

UnPat

UnPat
Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 19:11:08 (ZULU)

Welcome back Mourge. If you're interested in shooting a two day tac rifle match near Sacramento let me know. I think we still have one or two spots open for active military (I'd have to check with the match director but I'm pretty sure there's at least one open). Those spots are sponsored by the club so the 165.00 entry fee would be zero for you. Just show up and shoot. It's the last weekend of August and the prize table is impressive. Last year every shooter got to go up twice.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area , CA, - Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 20:13:17 (ZULU)

Rod: I did the same with my scopes---made a HUGE difference! I also thought I was a quarter-turn away from having the eye piece drop off in my hand---so many turns to actually notice any focal changes! If you still cannot tell if it changed focus: keep turning:)) I was amazed at how far "out" I had to come to get a noticable crispness into the 'hairs. I did this at Bobby's; one day my 300 yd group looked like a shotgun blast, the next, like a group we can workie with:)) Upon return home--all scopes got tuned accordingly.

Geoff M mentioned that he did not notice any differences in the focus of the reticle, either. i think the "tweak" was slight in real terms---but a major one in my eyes.

Joe M
Sunday, May 25, 2008, at 21:56:46 (ZULU)

Mourge,

When I have a dog that has problems with distance, I use a lightweight rope about 25 yards or so long. Just light enough that it doesn't drag much. Works pretty good for "Come". YMMV. Never had the extra dough for a shock collar. Hell, I STILL don't have a Chronograph!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 26, 2008, at 01:59:47 (ZULU)

Greetings,

Mourge: Welcome back. Glad the pooch is ok.

CDC: Long grain white rice shelf life is just about forever when stored properly and you can get a 50 lb bag for around 20-25 bucks.

Pat II
Monday, May 26, 2008, at 06:07:30 (ZULU)

Memorial Day....

God bless our Armed Service Men and Women, past, present and future.

Live free or die.

God Bless America.

Cheers

George Daly
Dickson, Tn., USof A - Monday, May 26, 2008, at 06:16:24 (ZULU)

Rod..............

"NOTE: To protect the integrity of the waterproof seal of every Leupold Golden Ring scope, an internal mechanism prevents the eyepiece from coming off the scope."

However, if you purchase a Premier-boosted Loopy the eyepiece WILL come off. I know this to be true (I was setting one up per Master Lito's instruction book) and Premier will tell you that if you ask them. Too late once the damn thing comes off and you are laying there with the friggin eyepiece in your hand cussing like an unpaid prostitute.

Time to wax on wax off the trucks, Bolt out!

Bolt
Happy Memorial Day in ...., NC, - Monday, May 26, 2008, at 12:25:08 (ZULU)

For anyone that's been fucked with by TSA.... click.

Travis Morgan
Monday, May 26, 2008, at 15:51:24 (ZULU)

TSA screeners:

Spear carriers in the government mandated airport security stage play. 100's of millions spent hardening against the *last* threat, placebo security.

Tom Clancy had "Debt of Honor" published in 1994. "... The ending also has coincidental parallels with the September 11, 2001 attacks, although the disaster is not caused by hijackers. An embittered Japan Air Lines pilot whose son was killed during the Pacific conflict flies his Boeing 747 directly into the U.S. Capitol building during the State of the Union with President Durling attending."

I read that before publishing "DOH", Tom discussed this plot element with the US Secret Service. Apparently their eyes got really big when they realized the implications. I guess the threat budget couldn't cover combat air patrols around DC until after 2001 :-(

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 00:47:03 (ZULU)

CDC': Jasmine rice is best, you can find it at most local Asian grocery stores (yes, there is a difference between rices. ~7,000 varieties on earth). A rice cooker is critical for making it consistently. This is based on having lived with a Thai woman for a number of years.

JoeM: Quantum black holes sucking up the earth? These are the same folks that thought the atomic bomb would ignite the atmosphere.

I just returned from Detroit, having buried a close cousin. He was 49, had a heart attack. Left behind a 16-year old daughter and his second wife, of 9-weeks. Sometimes it's hard to reconcile the fact a good man goes too soon, while some pricks and assholes just seem to hang around forever.

Whatever it is you do, make it count.

Duman
Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 03:08:21 (ZULU)

Physics country:

Manhattan Project, Trinity test of first atomic bomb - would an atomic bomb light up the atmosphere?

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=48;t=000556;p=1

quote:

"IIRC, Teller (who was already thinking of fusion devices) came up with the possibility that the fission reaction would initiate a fusion reaction in Nitrogen present in the air. If this reaction were self-sustaining, it could 'ignite' the atmosphere. Note that they meant a fusion reaction, not a chemical reacion...N2+x02->2NOx is an endothermic reaction and cannot be self-sustaning. They refer to an N+N->Si reaction. I believe Konopinski disproved the idea before the Trinity test. In any case, in 1946 Konopinski, Teller, and Marvin published LA-602 "Ignition of the Atmosphere with Nuclear Bombs", which showed that the radiative losses exceeded the energy production."

Tech. Report No. LA-602

Title Ignition of the atmosphere with nuclear bombs

Author Konopinski, Emil Jan, 1911- Marvin, C. Teller, Edward, 1908-

Physical Descr. 20 p.

Terms Gov. Use Reviewed

Declassified LANL Classification Group Approved for public release: 02 Aug 1985

Other Author Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00329010.pdf

Declassified only 39 years after it was published, not bad.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 03:53:52 (ZULU)

re: survival cooking

http://www.kurtsaxon.com/foods005.htm

SAVING MONEY WITH A THERMOS BOTTLE

(minimal energy bulk-packaged rice and wheat cooking)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 04:47:25 (ZULU)

its been 2 days since she took on the Prius and she is going up and down stairs on her own. She is probably about 70- 80%. She slept a lot today and wasn't her usual self but I bet in a few days she will be back to chasing the racket ball and running around. I have a whole new respect for Rotts and I am pretty much sold on the breed now.

On food storage- has anyone tried using those new vacuumed seal crush bags for food? I was talking to a buddy and we both think its plausible that one could put flour, rice, sugar, beans, etc in them( separate of course) and then suck it down. Purge it out with nitrogen to kill any weavels that are in it and suck it down again. Repeat until satisfied.

Does anyone see a problem with this or should it work without a hitch? inquiring minds want to know LOL

Mourge
SD, Ca, - Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 07:49:22 (ZULU)

Mourge...

Microwave it to kill weevils and other critters - 30 seconds will do them all with room to spare.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 09:30:12 (ZULU)

You guys amaze me.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 11:14:26 (ZULU)

Mourge

If your talking about the Food Saver, they are the cats meow. We've had one for about 3 yrs. now. DON'T buy the cheap model, get the top of the line model. Bags are a little pricey, but can be re-used if they havn't been used to store meat.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 11:57:58 (ZULU)

Gary,

Foodsaver appears to offer a variety of top models. Which one do you recommend and WHY?

medicjim
Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 16:40:56 (ZULU)

MedicJim: I chose the one "on sale" and it has lived up to the hype (it has a hose connection for non-standard vacuum sealing too). The wife started driving for a bulk-foods delivery outfit (institutional/ commercial) and she gets great deals on all mkinds of chow. Last week, I broke down 50 lbs of ground beef (yes, that is a shitload) into 2lb vacuum sealed bags---the plastic stock I have is tougher than the shell of my pop-up pool:))

The doc says "Well, your ankle has several anomalies, perhaps from an older injury(s)--we need to refer you to a ortho for a bone scan." This would be the ankle that was denied claims thru the VA. Maybe this trip thru the household furniture might be the basis for an appeal:)) Always look at the bright side of life (ta-dum, ta-dum-de-dum-de-dum)

The bad news is the ortho clinic has a waiting list til next week:(( I will be healed by then...

Also: got your data on the .260! Thanks!

Joe M
Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 17:35:23 (ZULU)

Back before Y2K, I used 15-gal. metal drums (they were originally used to ship creatine powder), washed them thorougly, and filled them with whatever. Then, a couple of dessicant pouches, and sealed them with the cantilever band around the top. Stayed good for a long, long time. I'm still using rice and beans out of the last of them.

Soybeans, rice, wheat and beans. Couple full of salt and sugar. Coffee, I think, will be short if things go really south.

When you get tired of rice and beans, switch over to beans and rice for a little variety. I lived on rice and beans, with some oatmeal, for a while in Arizona. Didn't hurt me any, and it was cheap.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 20:30:03 (ZULU)

Here's the main page for some more info on survivalism:

http://www.survivalplus.com/

Duman
Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 23:24:01 (ZULU)

Some guy blogged his experience eating "Purina Primate Chow". Google isn't finding that product for me. When the hurricane hit Burma, our navy responded with the usual. One item that was new to me was, "High Energy" something. I think they said "biscits". Do any of you gentlemen know anything about those rations?

Side note: Many, many moons ago, some school teacher told us about the benefits of the traditional Mexican diet. Pinto beans combine with corn to form complete protein. Chile (nod to Bruce on the spelling) contains vitamin C which eliminates scurvy. That is the teacher's story. Sometimes they are wrong. Any comments?

CDC'
Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 04:33:34 (ZULU)

CDC,

Don't know about "Purina Primate Chow" but Zupreem makes the best Primate biscuits, "Monkey Biscuits". Try www.arcatapet.com (click)

Alot of folks feed them to their parrots. They're dried and must be soaked in water before use, kinda hard.

Out of curiosity I tried one and it wasn't that bad, kinda bland. I was curious because my Rhesus Macaque is spoiled and won't eat them, (loves Chicken McNuggets and fries with a diet coke), but my little Blackcap Squirrel Monkey loves them.

I could see someone surviving on them. They have all the vitamins and nutrients any "Primate" could need.

Cheers

George Daly
Dickson, Tn., USof A - Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 06:16:25 (ZULU)

"Placebo security", gotta love that one!

Mourge,

Weevils, etc. need air to breathe. Thus, they will not survive in a vaccuum. We've been using the ziploc vaccuum bags, and the work GREAT. Well worth the price, since my wife freezer burns EVERYTHING she puts in the freezer.

George,

Did you mention that, just so we'd ask to look at "Macaque"?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 07:24:34 (ZULU)

"The Empire strikes Barack" I HATE Star Wars, and I think this is funny as hell! CLICK>

Travis Morgan
Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 07:38:24 (ZULU)

Guys,

To all offended by my post the other day about the sexual antics, I apologise. I'm the world's biggest 12 year old.

Was looking around today, and found a Browning A-bolt in .338 Win. Mag. for $465 with some kinda simmons variable mounted, and a synthetic sporter stock. No BOSS. Is this as good of a deal as I think it is?

I don't know much about the scope. It's a simmons, and has a buttload of markings on both ends and the elevation knob for various distances, and a kind of odd fine crosshair reticle with a second, finer crosshair above the horizontal one.

I dunno WTF I'd use a .338 Winchester Magnum on around here, especially since I go in for spinal laminectomy tomorrow, at 5 a.m..(All prayers appreciated) But I plan on going to Alaska at some point, and the biggest stick I have right now is a large ring 98 Mauser sporter in .30-06. I'd considered a .45-70 lever gun for that, but I really think it's better as a guide gun or camp gun.(The .45-70) I guess, if I buy it, I can start lobbying for my gun club to go ahead and buy the other property they were considering, where we would be able to shoot over 1,000 yards. ;0P

If the wife notices I bought it, I'll just call it my "recovery present". Buying 4 guns in one year, while I'm disabled and outta work, I better think of something!

Any thoughts? Opinions on the rifle or cartridge? Anyone know anything about the scope?

Rural living country:

We've had a shitload of rain here, recently. I knew this new pasture I'd put the horses in was prone to flooding, but out of 10 acres, we have MAYBE a tenth of an acre above water. Apparently, that's the worst anyone I've talked to has seen it.

It wasn't that bad when I went down there last night, as I was able to get where I needed to go in 2 wheel drive, but I guess we got hit with a BUNCH of runoff overnight after it stopped raining. Thank God I'd already put Bud down. I'd have really felt like shit if he'd have drowned.

Today, when my wife and I went down to move my other horse, it was so deep, I just stripped down to the ole skivvies, Nikes, and gunbelt(snakes) to wade in and get her. She and the other horses on the property were standing on a hay pile in the middle of acres of crotch deep water.

The wife thought it was kinda funny, seeing my pale, fat, bulbous ass march off into the water in that outfit. Since the trailer I normally borrow was underwater, I had to ride my horse a few miles to a neighbor's place, who's putting her up for me. I told her, after we'd gone a mile, "See? When we got married, you shoulda known you'd end up spending the evening staring at a horse's ass!" Maybe now, she'll realise WHY I need a bigger truck and a stock trailer.

For a city girl, she's really starting to come around. We've been together 6 years, and married 3, but I think we just might make it!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 09:31:13 (ZULU)

Medic Jim

We have the VAC 540. Wife says we've had it for 5 yrs. now. We had a cheaper model but it wouldn't handle bagging up 40 or 50 lbs. of meat in one setting. The unit would heat up and not seal properly, so we went with the 120.00 unit at that time'. Havn't had any problems at all with this one.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 13:15:02 (ZULU)

Travis: Get rid of the simmons variable. It will fail, probably after you spend the money on the Alaska hunt and at the worst possible time. Stick a fixed 4x scope on it and treat it like ya stole it.

Joe M
Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 13:37:36 (ZULU)

Joe,

If I used it at all, it'd just be for matches. I'm pretty much gonna have to re-laern to shoot after I've recovered from surgery. With all my back problems, my shooting, even with handguns, has gone completely to shit. I might have to become a shotgun snob, if I can't relearn to shoot.

For hunting, though, everything else I've tried just makes me want to go back to my Lyman All American 6X. That damn thing came with the Mauser, and has never leaked, or fogged on me, except when I exhale on it before mounting my rifle.(A habit I got into shooting iron sights.) I only gave $200 for the package, and the rifle already had a match trigger installed. The scope, by itself was going for $200 on fleabay at the time.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., The SWAMP! - Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 14:07:54 (ZULU)

Travis: "If the wife notices I bought it, I'll just call it my "recovery present". " Why not disguise it as a crutch? Though I don't know how you would explain a scope on a pair of crutches....

CDC': I would assume that a Chile, being a fruit of sorts, would contain vitamin-C. I wonder if someone has a reference to relative concentrations of vitamins amongst various fruits and vegetables.

George: Well, you've done it. I thought I'd read nearly everything on this site, but you've plowed new ground. A monkey that likes nuggets, fries, and cola? LOL!

Where's Bravo?

Duman
Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 16:02:16 (ZULU)

Duman wrote:

"I wonder if someone has a reference to relative concentrations of vitamins amongst various fruits and vegetables."

I have a book from my father (now retired food chemist) with such things, but getting it into a machine-readable format is another matter. Publication compiled by Heinz in the late 1950's. Which items were of specific interest? I suspect red and green peppers have vitamin C, which is the one that prevents scurvy (ascorbic acid).

There is probably a similar resource on the Internet, but I'm not going to look for it right now.

vaguely recall a past reference to Purina Monkey Chow, don't know if it is still sold under the same name today. Suspect if you Googled to Purina's site and looked at products you would probably find out.

Hadn't occured to me to use that as a survival ration, but it makes perfect sense. Should be a much better and pleasant choice than dog or cat food :-( I had wondered how dogs and cats could stand dog or cat food. Part of the answer is probably because they have fewer taste buds than humans.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 16:49:03 (ZULU)

Link to the story of our NG NCO being persecuted by the "convenience store" named' alphabet agency. This could happen to any semi-auto owner, which is the point of my posting it. Not a damn thing you can do--it is just bad luck. test fire? All ammo types (slamfires seems to be what he lead agent was trying for in the evidence testing)? Fine today, worn seer tomorrow? Anyone ever had an auto "double" for any reason? Yeah...here's your docket number and public defender...

Oddly, Geoff and i may know this guy thru separate contacts. In my recruiting company days, we 'borrowed' drill sergeants from this unit (split between a Milwaukee armory and a madison armory). We had them come up and teach the pre-basic tasks to our DEP pool (delayed entry kids with no true affiliation yet). The goal was to de-fang basic by showing a human being, a neighbor, who would be in charge (it worked out OK too). An Olofson was one of our guest instructors at one point. Geoff's interaction was far more brief, but could also add an element to the story that could make it scarier still---I'll let him explain, since it is a third hand possibility--but it could add another ammendment, the first, thrown under the bus for this guy.

In all, this story reeks of soviet-era fun and games. It also makes me wonder about the "first, they came for (xxxxx), and I did nothing..." aspect of allowing shit to happen.

MedicJim: foodsaver V2830. It made the cut by being under my nose at a discount. It does high volume packaging OK, and that hose attachment is a nice cheat for short-term canning too.

Freezerburn: When I was packing fish on near-industrial scale up in Alaska, I (accidentally) discovered that rinsing well, and then wrapping overly wet, seemed to cut down on this. The dry packed meat would eventually burn, while the wet-packed meats would keep forever. I would also double-wrap with waxpaper and then two such packs go into either a 1 ga or 2 ga partially evacuated ziplock bag. YMMV, but I had great results. I only paid for meat when I jonesed for a beef steak up there:)) Ya know, i was planning on retiring up there:(( I was not planning on changing diapers during my transitional leave though...ha! School over cool. Tis life.

Travis: 338WM is a heavy hitter up close, but not such a great choice for LR stuff IMHO. Tis why I recommended a 4x fixed scope; it is more than you need for the big ol' animals in alaska while giving enough FOV to handle up-close fast-ass reflex shots (ie, charging bears or angry moose). For LR, a 300WM is a better choice, though you do pay a price in recoil or back blast from the dreaded brakes. This whole discussion reminds me why i like the .260 rem; it has the ability to get out there accurately while being mild on the shoulder and ears. FWIW, my hotrod hammer is a 300WM Sako--it is unbraked (prefer it this way) and is about all I can take without developing a flinch. It has dropped everything I pointed it at--including my Alaska hunts. Heheh, but it did decapitate a doe on my back forty. Lite bullets (150s) were NOT the way to go to reduce anything:)) Heavy and hard is way better than lite fast and explosive:(( No neck roast that day!

Speaking of scopes: Anyone try out the burris xtreme line yet? I am waiting for one now for the second Howa .308. If any of youz bums ever show up during a season, the howa is for you (unless you travel with yer own or wanna carry a heavy barrel around). That is assuming that the new one shoots like the old, too. That first one is accurate.

Joe M
Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 16:58:34 (ZULU)

Purina Monkey food- most of the animal feeds I've seen are too laden with fat to put up for long durations... the dry biscuits that George mentioned may work.

Vitamin C - I found the easiest way to ensure a good supply of vit C is through tomatoes... easy to grow and can in the form of paste or stewed. Seed stocks are a PITA to maintain year to year....when things go in the dumpster, you need to be able to maintain your own seeds through the winter....I haven't got this mastered yet. Most everything easily available is hybrid...that doesn't work for year #2.

Food stores - I took inventory of what we used on a monthly basis that wasn't perishable and simply buy that in bulk and store it in the basement...every three months or so, I make a trip to the store and replenish whatever the wife has consumed. We live on a tight weekly grocery budget but a generous 'bulk purchase' budget...it makes for a very easy maintenance program and we are GTG for about a year of normal living. I would simply need to kill something to replace the beef, chicken, fish and eggs we consume (that I don't stockpile and should).... and bake bread instead of buying it. The SWAT cop up the street has chickens and I'm planning to massively expand the victory garden next year...barter still works.

Joe / Gary - thanks for the info on the foodsaver... something I have to try out.

Rod - I've been reconstituting food in a small plastic nalgene container slipped in a beer cozy when backpacking / or doing sustained rescue (I loathe MREs).... that thermos cooking idea is the same concept on a family scale...good stuff!

Long Range rifle - I recently switched to a 7WSM in a Win70, with the HS precision Stealth stock. I had GAP mount a light #5 or 5.5 taper bbl with the Badger FTE brake. I shot it one day off the bench and was stunned when my #7 taper .260 in a McM stock recoiled dramatically harder than full house WSM loads... that damn brake is astounding.

medicjim
Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 18:09:39 (ZULU)

Rod,

You ever seen a dog or cat lick their own ass, or eat shit? That pretty much explains how they can eat dog or cat chow.

Joe,

I guess I'm gonna pass on the .338. Don't need it, and I think I'm getting the use of 20 acres of good grass for free, which will cost me a few hundred dollars I ain't got to fence it in. I guess I'll just fence as much as I can, a little at a time.

Never shot a 260. At Gander mountain, I saw they have a .264 magnum for sale. Damn thing weighs more than two rifles ought to, and has a barrel about as thick as my, well, ....it's a damn heavy barrel. I want my next rifle to be either a Model 70 or 700 in .308, nut I can never seem to find one on the used gun racks. I've got this odd feeling that the first one I see, I'll end up paying way more than I ought to. I still haven't ruled out the tactical package from Savage, but I ain't exactly got $1700. (plus tax!)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., The SWAMP! - Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 20:07:28 (ZULU)

Travis, just buy a Rem SPS tactical in .308 (approx $550) and slap an HS precision take off stock on it and your set.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/42070

medicjim
Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 21:22:44 (ZULU)

Jim,

After buying that:

rifle $550

Bipod $150?

Scope $950?

Bases and rings $100?

Total........$1,700-$2,000

I may as well just go with their package, dontcha think? That stock will set me back, what? Another $200?

Don't matter, anyway. After looking at today's mail, I probably won't have any spare cash for a while. Maybe my wife's right; I might just have to sign up for that damn disability, just to pay bills. I think I'll try selling some toys, first.

Anyone need some 255 grain hard cast, water dropped Keith bullets? I've even got some gen yoo wine, authentic cowboy socks. $1 each, 50 cents extra for the ones with holes!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., The SWAMP! - Wednesday, May 28, 2008, at 21:47:05 (ZULU)

Joe, I am not positive, but I am fairly sure it was that Olofson character that I met. I was going to purchase something AR related, a floated handguard I think it was, from him. We talked briefly and definitely had different opinions. I don't remember the particulars anymore, the one thing that stuck with me was something about municipalities actually being "corporations" and thus their laws do not apply to anyone who is not a member of that "corporation", or something along those lines.

The philosophy that I have, and that I share with the guys I train with is that you are better off staying away from all that militia crap. We believe the best way to handle ourselves in accordance with our beliefs, is to be well prepared, well trained, productive, and upstanding citizens.....who are willing to help one another. Thus, we aren't "creepy militia members", we are patriotic people who are practicing good citizenship.

I came away from that meeting thinking "now there is a guy that the feds will pinch, one way or another". I'm not saying that what the feds appear to be doing here is right. Seems to me like they got a semi-auto AR15 to double or go full auto due to a mechanical/wear issue and are treating it like a purposefully modified weapon. If so, they are scum and it's wrong.

Moral: we have a legal system, it's fucked up sometimes, it's abused sometimes, but it is lawful. So follow it, pay your taxes, don't be an idiot and make a lot of waves. When you screw with the feds, you are kind of grabbing a tiger by the tail. If you insist on it, better have a few to several hundred thou saved up and have a team of fantastic expert attorneys with the appropriate connections on speed dial first.

Joe, is the Burris you have coming the one I was in love with until I got to the part about 1/8 min elevation adjustments?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Thursday, May 29, 2008, at 00:32:05 (ZULU)

We just got back from some meaningless school ceremony. The school is operated by an all female staff. The presentation was wave after wave of warm, fuzzy, soft, nurturing and support. I kept expecting to be breast fed.

Travis: I don't want to contradict Joe, but - with the right boolet - a .338 hits hard at long range.

CDC'
Thursday, May 29, 2008, at 05:09:25 (ZULU)

CDC: I wasn't down on the 338 for minute-of-moose at extended range so much as punching paper at a 1000 yds for scores. And, for all my optics, all my shots on game in Alalska were under 400 yards. A possible exception woulda been bighorns had I climbed the right mountain:)) But the valley-dwellers are as likely to emerge from a thicket of alders at close range as they are to present themselves 300 yds across a gravel bank, which is why I was happy with a 2-7x. Travis's reference to LR target shooting and hunting alaska colored my response. I was always thought to be under-gunned up there--338s and 375s were nearly universal choices...that is, proven performers for that task list. I don't think we disagree on the round for hunting all the way out to your personal ethical range; I was just saying there would be better ways to go if you want a hunting/ LR precision stick. I did not offer an opinion on the newer superer ultra'er magnum-magnums--old-dog-new-trick syndrome set in and i couldn't find a problem for those new solutions:)) No experience myself, but there might be something in those for what he wanted.

Of course, the "used rifle rack" is a complex time/ distance equation that skewers our simple math advice, eh?

Geoff: 1/4 minute specs; but the 1-4x has .5 MOA adjustments...and that little piggyback reflex sight package with this scope is a great combo.

Mayhem??? That might be what you are looking for (click)

Joe M
Thursday, May 29, 2008, at 06:27:49 (ZULU)

Olofson Case was screwed from word go.Gooberment used all the dirty lil tricks and then some.Boils down to this...If gun goes bang more times then ya pulled the trigger.Ya just earned a one size fits all jumpsuit and a new roomate.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Thursday, May 29, 2008, at 09:46:56 (ZULU)

Joe M: Sorry for barging in with incomplete info. Next time I'll read more closely.

CDC'
Thursday, May 29, 2008, at 09:56:57 (ZULU)

Medic Jim

I can say of all the small kitchen appliances, that's the best money we ever spent with out a dought.

Gary Kaney
N, ILL, - Thursday, May 29, 2008, at 12:32:42 (ZULU)

Quote of the day:

(not mine)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=366865

"my 9 year old shoots with me all the time... frankly i have already lined up a lawyer for the time when he gets suspended for talking about going to the range with me... and you bet your ass, ill be on every news program that will interview me..."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 29, 2008, at 16:42:09 (ZULU)

CDC, next time, I'll try to write mo' clearly:))

Joe M
Friday, May 30, 2008, at 02:38:28 (ZULU)

Anyone else slow at work lately? Its been a few weeks here that I have put in a full week of work. Just seems to be the way things are going. We only have about 3500 people on our town. Just wondering if it is like this every where else.

Jon Kujawa
Friday, May 30, 2008, at 03:53:12 (ZULU)

Jon,

I work for a healthcare company in the fortune 50 and see absolutely no sign of slowing in my industry. The competition is intense...if I took a year off, I'd be so outdated that I wouldn't likely have a job.

medicjim
Friday, May 30, 2008, at 12:55:20 (ZULU)

338LM:

Got my own rifle in .338 LM a few weeks ago. I'll get to shoot it maybe later on this year... In the mean-time -- looking for ammo, brass, etc... I have access to Midway and several other outfits via dealer channels....

WTF is up with the prices of .338LM ammo/brass/etc...???? Good gracious.... I thought the world would have enough of those in play so that lots more manufacturers would be running .338LM brass, ammo, etc...

Anyhow does anyone out there have good sources of .338LM ammo, brass, etc.... ???

Take care all,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Friday, May 30, 2008, at 13:49:55 (ZULU)

Jim,

Really, May be its just in the automotive industry then. People are not getting their cars fixed out of spite for the fuel prices. Went to fill up my ram 2500 last week and a 100 dallars only got me a 1/2 tank.

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Friday, May 30, 2008, at 14:33:46 (ZULU)

Sorry for the long post but just found out about AB 2062 Ammo Registration for California. Any help would be appreciated to shoot this down (no pun intended).

AB 2062 - Ammo Registration -

(3) Commencing July 1, 2009, a vendor shall not sell or

otherwise transfer ownership of any handgun ammunition without

at the time of delivery legibly recording the following information

on a form that is in a format to be prescribed by the department:

(A) The date of the transaction.

(B) The purchaser’s or transferee’s driver’s license or other

identification number and the state in which it was issued.

(D) The purchaser’s or transferee’s signature.

(E) The name of the salesperson who processed the transaction.

(F) The right thumbprint of the purchaser or transferee on the above form.

E-Mail Address:

Assemblymember.Berg@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Huffman@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Evans@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Davis@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Jones@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.DeSaulnier@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Ma@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Leno@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Hancock@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Swanson@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Galgiani@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Hayashi@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Mullin@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Torrico@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Ruskin@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Lieber@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Coto@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Beall@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Laird@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Caballero@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Parra@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Arambula@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Nava@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Fuentes@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Levine@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Brownley@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Feuer@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Krekorian@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Portantino@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Nunez@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Bass@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Davis@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Eng@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.DeLaTorre@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Price@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Dymally@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Lieu@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Karnette@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Furutani@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Mendoza@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Hernandez@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Calderon@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Soto@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Carter@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Solorio@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Saldana@assembly.ca.gov; Assemblymember.Salas@assembly.ca.gov

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Friday, May 30, 2008, at 14:44:02 (ZULU)

Joe M,

If thats the case where the guy was going to sell an AR to someone and he took it to the range an it went full auto a time or two then there is more to the story than is being told on a lot of sights.

This was a hot topic on one of the other shooting sights I was in and someone actually posted court transcripts of the case. He had altered the trigger and or selector or both. I don't recall it all that clearly because it was a long read but after reading it he is no innocent baby being beat up on by the feds.

As they say there is two sides to the story and the one going around the net does not have the correct facts.

Pat
Friday, May 30, 2008, at 15:33:49 (ZULU)

Pat, didn't want to say anything until you brought it up but I did read an article a while back that stated that he did modify the AR to fire in three round burst and that his selector switch went from safe, semi, to burst and the individual he was selling to was ask not to put it on burst. If my memory serves me right, this is what I remembered.

There are always two sides to a story....

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Friday, May 30, 2008, at 15:45:01 (ZULU)

Ken: I saw Lapmag ammo "on sale" for $99 for 20 match; whoa! Hindsight being what it is, I cringe when I recall how easy it used to be to bid on .50 brass at DRMO---back before the internet and centralized auctions. I'm a dumbass---one of my hunting partners in Alaska ran the local yard:))

The local papers here only report "malfunction" as the cause of the multi-fire...in fact, the new owner was shooting it when the "double" occured. It is possible he was dumb enough to transfer a modified weapon, though I rather doubt it. In any case, possession is the usual path for convictions--the fed's would only give up on you if you could help them with a bigger fish--meaning---hey, they were after this guy already. Makes ya wonder...

FWIW, I could go post that he made machine guns for a living illegally. Whoops; I just did. That does not make it true.

Regardless, what is in play here and elsewhere is a concerted effort to intimidate the shooting community by a gov't agency. How many "isolated incidences" makes for a pattern? Ahhh...beating a dead horse. We all know who is and isn't our friends.

Joe M
Friday, May 30, 2008, at 16:22:40 (ZULU)

Ken on .338 LM components:

Good price or good availability?

Hirsch Precision in Halifax is the Canadian Lapua importer. I can query stock status if you're interested.

http://www.hirschprecision.com/

All pricing is in Canadian Dollars Per 100 unless noted

Brass:

4PH8068 .338 Lapua Mag per 100 $ 280.00

Projectiles:

4PL8017 .338 GB488 HPBT Scenar 250gr. $ 70.00

4PL7012 .338 B408 FMJBT Lockbase 250gr. $ 70.00

I don't know his policies on exports, but I could probably intermediate for you if necessary. Don't believe there are issues exporting brass and/or bullets from Canada to the US.

(There *are* US ITAR law issues for such exports from US to Canada, darn it!).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 30, 2008, at 16:58:53 (ZULU)

Update - AB2062 has passed and is now on Arnold's desk. It is understood that he is not seeking reelection so hopefully, out of good conscious, he will veto this bill.

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Friday, May 30, 2008, at 17:36:44 (ZULU)

.338 WM- I built one decades ago for an Alaska hunt I never took. The one bright thing I did do was to make sure the rifle with irons weighed 10.5 lbs. With 200 gr factory loads it's a joy to shoot, with 250 gr handloads it pushes a mite-with no recoil pad. I figured that when pointed a a Kodiak brownie, it'd feel about like a BB gun.

The only time it caused me pain was benching it to sight in. Had a stiff neck for a couple days afterward. Still have a partial box of factory 300 gr softpoints.

WR Moore
Friday, May 30, 2008, at 19:32:32 (ZULU)

re: sighting in heavy recoiling rifles

The Brit's used a standing bench for sighting in heavy recoiling rifles. Smart idea.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 30, 2008, at 23:34:29 (ZULU)

More spitting in the faces of the people that are trying to protect there inconsiderate asses. (Click name)

The Flag still at half mast from the services of a fallen officer just days before..... frikkin heartless animals.

Libs just burn me up.

At the same rally....

75,000 people they say turned out for Stalin..... I mean obama.... yeah right. The press doesn’t mention, Anywhere, about the free concert by one of the Libs favorite Oregon bands that played.

Oh yeah the band..... The decemberist .... total commie band. No, not just Libs, real commies....

They sing about how this country sucks etc.They open with the Soviet national anthem and all there music has communist-inspired lyrics.

They get there name from the 1825 Russian liberal uprising and revolt.

In December of 1825 in St. Petersburg, Russia, a group of military officials staged a revolt against Tsar Nicholas I. These rebels were liberals who felt threatened by the new ruler’s conservative views. They were, however, defeated by the tsar’s forces. As a result of this revolt, Nicholas I implemented a variety of new regulations to prevent the spread of the liberal movement in Russia.

Everything an up and coming presidential candidate for this country would want to project.

And I thought Hitlery was going to be bad.

Jim in az.
AZ. , You cant win the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless. - Saturday, May 31, 2008, at 00:06:44 (ZULU)

.338 recoil isn't bad if you use sorbothane recoil and cheek pads. Brownell's sells them.

CDC'
Saturday, May 31, 2008, at 13:34:27 (ZULU)

I wonder why the police in Oregon didn't have the porta-potty removed?

medicjim
Saturday, May 31, 2008, at 13:43:00 (ZULU)

re: recoil protection

+1 on sorbothane. Great stuff. Get the low durometer number variant if you have a choice. I got 40 OO.

Oct/2007 tried to purchase some from McMaster-Carr, shipped to me in Canada. No joy.

This is what happened when I tried to order sorbothane directly from them:

"Thank you for your order. Unfortunately, due to the ever increasing complexity of United States export regulations, McMaster-Carr can only process orders from a few long-established customers in Canada. We sincerely regret any inconvenience this causes you."

The bureaucrats are winning :-(

Plan B legally solved the above...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 31, 2008, at 13:46:28 (ZULU)

Rod: I got that same advice here a few years back when I built the deer slayer II (870, rifled-cantilever barrel, aimpoint) and sighted in at 100yds with hornady SST slugs. My shoulder had just been wired back together, and the standing option workie well.

Why wait for Obama to head the politboro? The Dems are trying to nationalize hurricane insurance right now:)) Maxine wants to nationalize the oil companies--though she is a moonbat from hell. These fucks are emboldened right now on many fronts, though. It could be that in their joyous anticipation of an easy victory, they will tip their hand too far...most Americans, I beleieve, do not want socialism in all its glory. They want a fair shake, but not gimmes.

That's my hope, at any rate.

Joe M
Saturday, May 31, 2008, at 14:39:07 (ZULU)

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