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RE: ABC polls- Did anyone else notice the questions were rather slanted?

Dirty Steve,

Have you ever noticed that whenever a cop can't make someone agree with them, they're displaying anti-social behavior? I thought cops were supposed to take reports and protect the public, not shit on the victims.

I'm not saying that this is what you're doing, but it sounds that way.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 02:08:02 (ZULU)

I'm shocked, the ABC poll is still up. The mo gun laws folks are getting whipped near 3 to 1, but the metal detectors on campus folks are doing much better.

Forget who posted the VT rules, I'm aghast that I've unknowingly violated their policies during several visits to the equine facility.

I was wondering Tuesday morning why people let themselves be lined up and shot without charging the shooter. Oh, wait, it wasn't a video game!

WR Moore
Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 02:33:04 (ZULU)

WR Moore: "I was wondering Tuesday morning why people let themselves be lined up and shot without charging the shooter. "

If you heart shoot a deer with a smallish (6mm or so) rifle, he has a good ten seconds before he falls. This asshole was using a crummy little 9m&m pistola. He was untrained, which means that he could no way hit a moving target and you'd probably survive a 9mm hit anyway. A perfectly servicable blackjack can be improvised from your socks, the change in your pocket and your car keys. Smash a chair to make clubs. Rush him and break major bones...do something. Anything is better than standing there and waiting.

30+ people? There's no way that should happen.

These nice middle class kids were never taught the harsh realities.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 03:56:16 (ZULU)

I am surprised that they stood there and took it. I am proud to come from 200 or 300 years of Va. rednecks and am a 1979 graduate of the Va Tech Corps of Cadets. I know that there was at least one Cadet among the murdered, I don't believe that he would be a sheep. I always kept a pistol up in the dorm, wouldn't have done me any good in class though. I can't believe that our nation does not have a "fight back" mindset after 9/11. I'm a cop, so I guess I should know better. Mike Dominick, Missoula Mt

mike464
missoula , mt, usa - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 04:37:40 (ZULU)

Hawgs -

There is a gun control poll on the C-Span website pro or con.

Make yourselves be heard!

http://capitalnews.org/

or click my name

ALAN
Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 04:59:35 (ZULU)

CDC,

I watched the news and they showed pictures of the pistols. Apparently one of them was a 9mm, and the other was a .22LR. This guy supposedly had lots of issues prior to the murders. He was reported to have been on Prozac, or the same class of drugs. He bought the guns five weeks prior to the murders. He had chains and locks to secure the doors. He had some weird crap written on his arms. This nutcase was reported to police in the past for suspicious behavior. Its just like Columbine in so many ways. They knew the killers were on Prozac, and had made threats of violence. There was a guy near me that went nuts and killed several people in a workplace shooting back in the 90s. He was on Prozac too. And apparently this is not the worst shooting of this type in this country. In 1922 there was a shooting in Michigan when 45 people were murdered.

Bill

wbledsoe
USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 06:36:44 (ZULU)

Mike464,

Its all about being nice, and not fighting back when you are attacked. The Politically Correct message is that violence is always wrong. Kids in school that fight back usually catch more hell than the asshole who started the fight. I guess I am a redneck too, because I never got the message either.

CDC,

I have to wonder what the hell everyone was doing while this murderer was chaining the doors shut?

And then they had that "hug-a-thon" today. They should have been telling the kids if this crap happens again dont just stand there and let them kill you. But instead they had that whacked out poetry professor reciting some meaningless crap.

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 07:40:52 (ZULU)

Travis,

That guy was getting assaulted for 5 mins. I got the call 20 minutes after he called and took me 5 mins to get there. He should have warned her to stop. Then her failing to do it, knock her out. I did write up the accident and the Assault report. But I have NO RESPONSIBLIITY FOR HIS SAFETY!!! THE SUPREME COURT HAS RULED THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN. Oh the gal left prior to my arrival by about ten minutes.

Cops are not always right. However the general public often thinks because TJ Hooker did it, all cops can do it. There must be a law against it type mentallity. I have had folks say you need to arrest him/her. I reply for what? They reply with an answer like becuase it's not right. I reply, Your correct it was a shitty thing to do but the is no law against it. They get upset and call my SGT. He gets to try to explain the law to them and leaves frustrated. Cops in major departments are normally correct regardless of what the victim or general public may think. I don't include small departments because I have not worked for one.

Cops hate citizens who think they know the law. Because they don't, but think they do. After all they watch cop shows on TV. There is a list out there called "Why cops hate you" it is funny (to me) and explains why we are frustrated with the folks we deal with on a daily basis. I know my post sounded a bit harsh, but I was tactfull when I told him I just hate typing a bunch like I just did here on this post. I have arrested folks for robbery and had pounded the crap out of them only to have them appologize to me in front of my SGT for making me hit them. The SGT asks if this happens to me often, I told him yes. He got a call a week later by a guy for 3 days in a row. He wanted the SGT to thank me for Not kicking his Butt. Sgt told me and said he did not want to know anything about it just wanted to relay the message. I can be the absolute nicest officer to arrest you or your worst night mare. It is up to the public to decide which of me they wish to deal with. Becuase I tell some one something they don't like,I am rude in thier opinion. Keep in mind I work in the 8th largest city and on the worst side of town(West siiiide). After 13 years I still make more arrests and write more tickets than any one else in my substation and there is only on other guy I can think of with more arrests per month on the department. And he and I are usually within 1 or 2 arrests per month apart. This does not include our special unit that does not respond to calls for service. RANT OFF.....

My point of that post was, here is a guy with the means to protect himself but didn't. He wanted the government to do it. I have accepted the fact our Nation has become a Nation of cowards. Meaning the brave are in the minority. That was my point not the entire incident. Which if you want to email me directly I will tell you the whole story. Not just the tiny portion I wrote about. The rest of the story had nothing to do with him being a coward.

Please click on my name for the "Why cops hate you" editorial.

Dirty Steve......... (Why do you think they call me Dirty Steve? Every dirty job that comes along........)

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 07:56:43 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Thanks for the link to the editorial. It made my mornng.

John

acehigh
Indy, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 15:08:50 (ZULU)

Gents,

For anybody here who holds a regular civi job, such as myself, you may find this helpful. Yesterday, the sheeple in charge at my work gathered us together to make sure we know that guns on the property will not be tolerated and are grounds for immediate discharge. I light of the events at VT they want to make sure that they provide a safe work envirionment. When they were done I asked, "So let me see if I understand you correctly, you want to make sure that in the event of some whacko coming in here and opening fire, we have removed all means to protect ourselves, right?"

It drew a nice laugh from those assembled and reddened the face of the super giving the meeting, but it got the point across nicely.

Go here to find out more and I also have a call into the Attorney Gen. to find out the "facts" on my rights. They do not have carte blanche when it comes to searching your private vehicle. Any input from those in the know here is welcome, even if I`m wrong.

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=193

If the link doesn`t work, it`s under the issues tab on the ILA site.

Steve Racer
Somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 15:12:11 (ZULU)

Speed Racer,

Did they prohibit the carrying of Pepper Spray in your work place? Yeah I know Pepper Spray won't stop a bullet. But your use of it may allow others to go home. If your real lucky you may get to go home too, but don't count on it. Be cautious though of accidental discharges. Man you can clear a roll call room. We have had several go off and it is funny. Well Cop funny. It has not happend since we went to real chairs instead of school desk type chairs. Imagine a 250 pound guy sitting in a school desk with a pistol belt on and all the crap that goes a long with it. Something will get bumped into.

John,

Glad I could brighten your morning. My work for the day is done I helped one person. It really speaks the truth about cops whether any one will admit it or not.

Bill,

I think you hate that touchy feely crap as much as I do.

Dirty Steve.............

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 16:19:56 (ZULU)

Bill Bledsoe,

This is not a Columbine. Columbine was an example of poor parenting, poor schooling, confined area, and poor leadership. The police learned, and performed well at a later shooting situation in Bailey, CO. There is direct accountability in the Columbine situation.

VT is an open situation, much like any city, business, or other organization. The students? They were in class, where they were supposed to be. The police? They were investigating what was thought to be a singular event. Logistics? Dozens of buildings, thousands of rooms, tens of thousands of people. Prozac? What the hell does that have to do with anything? Someone knows something, and they haven't talked yet.

The shooter was responsible. Period.

Duman
Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 17:25:19 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve....depends on what I'm touching and feeling.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 17:48:57 (ZULU)

Duman,

Prior to Columbine there was a work place shooting in Louisville KY. The killer was on Prozac. The kid in Columbine was on Prozac, or Ritlin. And now it appears that this killer at VT was also on Prozac, or drugs in the same classification. There was a prior history of problems with the kid in Columbine. There are at least two incidents with the killer at VT for stalking women. You are right, its not the same situation, but we can't ignore the facts either. I think Prozac may be helpful to most of the patients its prescribed for, but its also been proven to increase the possibility of violent behavior in some people. Every time I get dispatched to a call involving a suicidal subject with a gun that is on meds you can bet I want to know what type of meds are involved. Sorry if I failed to make my OPINION clear. Prozac/Ritlin, prior history of the suspects, and mass murder were the links between the two incidents I was making reference to.

We agree that the physical situation in VT is nothing like Columbine. VT is located on over 2,000 acres, and has over a hundred buildings with a student population of about 19,000 or so.

Yes, the killer was responsible for the murders. He did it. The police did the best they could based on the information they had.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 19:35:52 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

If you do, as you stated, believe in the crap you posted the link to, YOU are the one with anti-social tendencies. YOU are the one that needs to hang up your gunbelt.

I agree that we need some cops that aren't afraid to crack a skull or two, but the citizenry is NOT your enemy. If they annoy you so much, get a rent a cop job guarding an empty warehouse at night.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 20:34:53 (ZULU)

Bill Bledsoe,

I apologize for being abrasive. I think we are on the same page.

Duman
Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 20:55:40 (ZULU)

Guys, the "hate the civilians" part of that little missive is over the top. BUT, if you've seen some of the situations cited actually occur, the stupidity of the general populace is incredible.

I was once walking out of an emergency room, and stopped to watch a nicely dressed guy drive in the ambulance entrance-past the EMERGENCY VEHICLES ONLY- signs and park on the yellow line at the curb. He got out of his vehicle, carefully read the smaller no parking/tow away zone sign and then walked up and asked me if he'd get a ticket for parking there.

I informed him that if he didn't move his vehicle immediately, he'd be ticketed, towed and that if his vehicle delayed an ambulance, sued. He moved it.

There's a documented case of an Indiana State Trooper having a gunfight with a guy on a road. After it was all over, he realized that a crowd of about 20 people had been watching the festivities. At least one knew the deceased assailant and voiced great satisfaction over the results.

WR Moore
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 00:23:59 (ZULU)

Travis,

I'll take your advise for what I paid for it. You may do the same.

I don't hate all citizens just the ones that create thier own problems and want me to solve them. Many of you appearantly have never met the type folks I am talking about. I refer to the I am a mulitple time convicted felon raising Gang Banger thugs type. The guy in the incident I wrote about had only a minor srcatch on his 22 yr old POS vehicle and wanted to sue the other ladys Insurance for an injury he "may have gotten". He was also a convicted child molester.

Dirty Steve........

Diurty Steve
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 01:27:15 (ZULU)

Travis,

Dirty Steve doesn’t need me, or any one else, defending him. I have only spent one day with Dirty Steve shooting a match, but I saw enough that I would be proud to call him a friend.

HDR
OK, - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 01:55:52 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve- I have several shooting partners and friends that are cops and I've seriously considered becoming one myself. I understand where your coming from, loved the post, and I'm thankful for what guys like you do.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area , CA, - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 02:51:29 (ZULU)

Steve,

I'd have been less than helpful to a convicted child molester that wanted to sue someone for yet to be named injuries, too. What a tool.

I accidentally bumped a guy from Wrong parts auto, er, I mean, O'reilly's. Cracked the paint on a rubber bumper on an '80's model hatchback, and offered to have it painted. This tool wanted to sue me for a $1500 paint job. I offered him $300 for the whole car. I think insurance company gave him $75!

I had a friend that was a sheriff's deputy that told me how he'd have LIKED to solve the problem with people that had 3 night a week domestic disputes. He wanted to give them both a gun, then leave.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 03:44:55 (ZULU)

I read Dirty Steve's post to the line, "First of all, civilians are so goddamn stupid."

Here's a news flash for the profoundly stupid sack of shit who wrote that: Cops ARE civilians.

CDC'
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 03:54:51 (ZULU)

Travis: I work with Dirty Steve every day. I've made some calls that would turn your hair white with him. I trust him with my life, and more, my rifles. As for your comment he should hang up his gun belt....shut the f**k up. And, if you don't like that, tough shit.

And, that was edited only at Dirty's urging.

CDC....semantics. Cops refer to all non-cops as "civilians". I know, I know....if you're not in the military, you're a civilian. BFD.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 05:29:48 (ZULU)

HDR, thanks for the kind words. But you for got to mention what a great long range shot I was. Haha... I owe you and Frank a beer.

Marc, It's a good job. With some real neat hair raising times. I chased a guy for 45 mins in a car. He shot at me and a buddy. Then off's himself in front of the media. That was neat. Since it was an in custody death I didn't have to write the report. Some other smuck did. HAHA....

Travis, yeah that car was an 85 Thunderbird. Originally red but faded pink I new what he wanted as soon as I got there. Guys like him make all our insurance rates go up. Please disrgard Chucks post. He has been under some pressure lately. His blood pressure is way up. It's just when your in a job where I have had 4 friends shot in one night and lost half a dozen or more co-workers in the past. You kind of think everyone is against you. No hard feelings.

CDC, you are correct sir. Cops are civilians. I never said other wise. Atleast don't remember saying other wise. If I did I was WRONG.

WR, I think he just meant the stupid citizens. Not them as a whole.You have to take it for what it is intended for, amusement. Like when I had a road blocked with my patrol car. Flares burning bright blocking off the road also. And some idiot drives around my car by jumping over the curb. I stop him mid-way around asking him why on earth he thinks I am sitting there.... Those are the type he hates. As do most cops.

Dirty Steve.......

Dirty Steve
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 05:52:58 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Don`t have the policy in front of me, but I seem to remember somthing about anything that could be used as a weapon, so I think pepper spray falls into that category. I do have a spray that I carry(to the shock of those who know me) and it would be my first choice if possible. I don`t relish the idea of shooting someone, even if they need it. The whole meeting was just feel good, warm and fuzzy, don`t ask-don`t tell crappola, presented in threat format. I took a copy of the NRA link in to my union rep., who was NOT present for the meeting, and also happens to be a waste of skin, and let him know the jig is up and management is full of shit. My ONLY concern was that the stupid amongst my union brethren would curtail their normal habits because of fear of losing their job. That, and I like to ram this kind of shit down management`s collective throats whenever the opportunity arises. Didn`t hear back from the AG today. Will call again tomorrow. Just like a dog with a bone now.

FWIW, I`ve been to SA several times. My brother and Mom both live there for 20 years. If I had to be a cop there based on the little I`ve seen, I might not like peoples much either. Hey, is Texas a recip. state with PA? How do you guys feel about out-of-towners carrying? Or do I have to ask? The last time we drove down, I had my little helper locked in my R&D Handi-gun safe the whole trip. Wasn`t sure if I could put it in it`s home spot on my side or not.

Be safe. SR

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 07:24:03 (ZULU)

Speed Racer, (Sorry I just like saying that. If I were a PI I would go by the name, Steve Chase Private Eye)

Go here http://www.txdps.state.tx.us:80/administration/crime_records/chl/reciprocity.htm or click on my name for the poop straight form the source. I think every normal person should be allowed to carry a gun. Wow, that crap coming out about the nutbar in Va. Shows home Team just was all there. He obvioiusly lied on his AFT form about not being nuts. I work mainly in or near Indian Creek. I don't know if your folks are familiar with it. But it was really rowdy when I started.

Do I sleep? Not Much....

Oh I'm a Grandpa. Came home and my mare had her foal. A little boy. Uglier than hell too. Haha. Foals really aren't cute they just look so leggy.

Dirty Steve.............

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 08:28:17 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: "CDC, you are correct sir. Cops are civilians. I never said other wise."

The dumb-ass at your link said that civilians are stupid. The implication I carried from that was that he was too stupid to know that cops are civilians.

CDC'
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 11:08:23 (ZULU)

Hey Ya'll,

Couple of things... Did anyone who heard the turd that shot up VT notice that he sounded just like the tapes of Muslim suicide bombers ?

Maybe I'm just hearing things...

Steve Racer,

Stick it to em' !

Dirty Steve,

Congrats on the foal, I think ??? Hey a long time ago I was drinking beer with a swat trainer buddy and he was telling ' dick head public interaction' stories ( how's that for PC ? ) and I just had to ask him how he had the fortitude to get up and go to work everyday. I asked him just how he kept from strangling folks. To which he replied " I treat folks as nice as they will let me". I've tried to live my life that way ever since... Some of the best advice I ever got.

Stay safe

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 11:55:16 (ZULU)

Cops vs. Everyone else...

I have carried a gun for 30 years in different rolls. The biggest mistake we make as police officers is getting the "Us against them" attitude. You need to have good friends outside of the "JOB" so you will know that all the people you deal with are not assholes.

I have seen it happen for years and when I was a training officer I tried to instill in my rookies to not just have cop friends. When all you deal with is ass holes all day long its hard not to think that everyone is that way.

It takes an effort to make good friends outside of LE because everywhere you go your introduced as Pat Murphy State Trooper then you hear all the BS about everyone who was ever arrested. You need to get by that and let people get to know you as just you.

My best advice to you guys carring guns is treat everyone the way you would want to be treated when stopped then go from there. Make some good friends outside the job it will help you stay on the job longer.

Alan,

Barreled action came back cleaned up for the most part. It is a flat dull, dark, gray color. Its going to look good when I get it done. I am still doing the stock and should have it done in a week at the most.

I had a different smith install the barrel and sent him along a dummy round and he called and told me his reamer was shorter than my round so I would have no trouble kissing the rifling. I don't know what he's using to measue with but a mag length they are a ways from kissing anything!! I am going to play around with my loads and some other powders to see what it will do. Its shooting round patterns, like when you change one thing they suck togeather. I will keep you posted.

Pat
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 13:27:51 (ZULU)

Hawgs -

It seems that we go through this same thing every so often. It gets tiring after you've scrolled through the posts and read the same kind of back and forth banter time and time again.

People have bad days - and cops probably have more than most folks. You really can't blame a person for wearing his heart on his sleeve when he goes out and puts himself in harms way every day. We just have to remember that we're all human beings and no matter if you're cop or "civilian" we're all in this together.

ALAN
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 14:54:53 (ZULU)

I was going to post a long diatribe about stuff, but as I read it, I realized it made me sound even dumber than I am. Nutshell....if you don't know what you're talkng about, keep the lips together.

Steve, good news on the foal. Horse babies don't need braces when they hit thirteen!

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 15:19:18 (ZULU)

Pat,

You are correct about friends outside the department. In fact Chuck is the only one I associate with from the department when not at work on a regular basis. I mainly associate with, a geologist, an intelligence guy, a USGS water reader (reads lake , river and aquifer levels), a retired aircraft maintence worker, a DoD Civilian that certifies the Military working dogs, and an civilian book keeper for Uncle Sam. I think thats a neat mix. They are all guy nuts also. Too many guys end up dead after working because thaT IS ALL THEY KNOW. lIKE THE POOR DUMB BASTARD ON OUR DEPARTMENT WHO (sorry about the caps lock) has been there 50 years. He is over 70 and still there. Crips get on with your life I would like to tell him but thats coming 20 years too late.

Grammar country, Civilian-A civilian is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces. The term is also often used colloquially to refer to people who are not members of a particular profession or occupation, especially by law enforcement agencies, which often use rank structures similar to those of military units. However, law enforcement personnel (at least in most English-speaking countries) are normally considered to be civilians themselves.

Momma is real protective of the baby. This is gunna be fun handling him. Momma gave me a dirty look this morning when petting her baby. I was petting the colt as she was feeding and she whipped around and threw them ears back. I took a step back and she was appeased.

Colt? I wonder if the wife would go for that as a name? He has a spot on forehead (an elipse actually) but "Spot" just wouldn't work as a name I think.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 15:46:10 (ZULU)

I'm not a LEO, but I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. OK I was the OIC of a 13 man Reserve Police Unit a number of years ago so I have a "little" understanding of Police Officers and "the job". My wife was a Dispatcher/Jailer for a number of years and we to this day have many friends that are still "on the job". So where am I going with this. A couple of weeks ago I was stop by a State Officer for speeding, I was I freely admit it, anyway I was polite to him, showed him my CCW IMMEDIALTEY, ask where my weapon was, I told him, he asked to keep my hands on the steering wheel or where he could see them, "no problem Sir". When he came back with his clipboard asked me where I was going. Told him to a doctors appointment at the nearby Air Force Base, that I was reitred military. Oh do you have your ID card? Certainly showed it to him. He IMMDEIATELY THANKED ME for my service! I thanked him for HIS! Asked what I did for a living told him I was a ER Nurse. He then said something I didn't expect. He said OH you got out of the military and now are doing something REALLY DANGEROUS! I'd thought of that before but had never had someone else express that to me! The more I think about it the more I realize he is right! I deal with basiclly the same "public" a LEO does but TOTALLY un-armed! I even think about having a "normal" weapon and get caught my job is history!

As to friends outside the "community". Ever notice, and every LEO, Firefighter, Paramedic, ER RN etc that reads this KNOWS this to be true. Notice how "we" the "Public Service" community hang around together! We all have something in common, dealing with the public at their WORST! They are hurt, sick, injured or just having a bad day and they call or come to see US! They are at their worst and we TRY to help to the best of our abilities but most of the time it just isn't good enough. They have no clue that they are the LAST of a line of peolpe that have come to us that are sicker/more injured and "we can't see you right now" and just made there day even WORSE!

This may be a bit rambling but I guranttee that every one of you in the "Public Service Community", that I have talked about, know what I mean!

OK the longest post I've made in I don't know when is over.

Think about it KNOW you've been here, done this, have the T-shirts to prove it, and don't want any more!

PS I got a warning from the NMSP officer!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 15:54:23 (ZULU)

Distinguished British biologist J.B.S. Haldane was asked by a journalist what, if anything, he had learned about God in his long career studying nature. Haldane replied that he must be very fond of beetles, because he had made so many different kinds.

I think the same thing of stupid people - and I try to give them a break, because being stupid is not a moral failing. Stupid people can't help being stupid.

But sometimes it's hard. And it's especially hard dealing with more intelligent people who for some reason think that the laws of man, and sometimes the laws of physics, just don't apply to them.

They're not going to go away, those folks. Trying to avoid them is burdensome. I'm pleased not to be a LE officer, because those folks spend a lot of their working lives in contact with them, for which they have my eternal gratitude - and my sympathy.

And I take particular care when teaching LE officers to shoot, because, if they have to shoot, I want them to shoot well, so that they can go home to their families.

Bless them all.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 18:20:39 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, My old college room mate became a cop in a mid western state about the time I moved to the mountains in the late '60s..He would call, and I'd ask what was up? His reply was often "I just need to talk to someone normal".. After a short stint with WV's Dept of Human Services in the ealy '70s(welfare back then), and dealing with the same assholes local LE did on a daily basis, it didn't take me long to get a bit jaded about society in general. It's amazing what people will do. It's like every day has to be a soap opera! Back then gettng a carry permit was almost impossible here. Went out one night to pick up some kids on a court order(this very nice family was hard to find during daylight hours, you know that drill) accompanied(sp?) by a State Trooper and another social worker. While approaching the "home" the Trooper asked me if I had a gun(patently illegal). I thought a minute and, since I knew the guy pretty well, told him I had a LW Commander. His only comment was "good deal". Luckily, I didn't have to make a career of state employment, although my wife is teaching the fourth generation of some of the families I worked with in the early '70s. The cycle of government supported assholery seems almost impossible to stop.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 18:29:40 (ZULU)

And Now For Something Completely diffrent.

Chuck, Contact me at work. I'm gunna join the range in Jourdanton again. Even if I shoot there only 4 times a year it's worth it. Since Bill Hurly died and Charlie Weatherby moved to Boerne I didn't know who to contact. But I have the info again.

Gunna be fun to shoot again. It's a 500 yard pvt range. I just can even bring my self to dirty a stick shooting at only one or two hundred yards.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 18:38:23 (ZULU)

So where is a good cop when I need him?

Seriously, I've been helping out a kiddo (21, leaving college), he's a good guy with good morals and values - his head is on straight. He's just about decided that a career in LE is the thing to do... no argument here so far. What I thought I'd do is ask for a volunteer to explain to him what the career is really like on a day-by-day basis. I'm assuming -having never been a cop- that it's like a lot of careers where it's only AFTER you start that you find out about all the rest of what is entailed.

If one of you active / retired cops wouldn't mind talking with this guy, I'd really appreciate it. I'm not wanting to talk him out of anything, just make it so that he has realistic expectations of what's involved.

Patrons 'Lito and Mike, you'se gots e-mail. Mike, I wasn't sure which one was the best, so I sent it to the AOL one. Looking forward to taking the kiddo out to a Appleseed shoot.

After reading all this stuff on Steve, I'm looking forward to having some fun. Since my profession is 'ranked' somewhat like the military too, I'm gonna say "I'm about to start a reaction with these chemicals - you civilians don't try this" HA! DOUBLE HA! Now that's funny, I don't care who you are!

Bravo
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 19:28:49 (ZULU)

Bravo, And bless all the starving pigmies in New Guinea (SP).. HA

I could talk to your son him some time. Damn you sent me a picture of you two once. He was just a lad at the time. Time sure flies.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 20:18:24 (ZULU)

"The cycle of government supported assholery seems almost impossible to stop"

Hey Markwell...how do you want your royalty payments...cause I'm gonna get some mileage from this one!!!!!

Just poking my head in for a sec.....sounds like youse guys got things right where they should be.

WY6's...Later--Rich

Rich Johnson
Thursday, April 19, 2007, at 23:13:15 (ZULU)

Stupid People...

NJ was hit with around 10 inches of rain last weekend. Whole new streams showed up, some travelling right into folks homes.

We had been running for about ten hours straight when we got to this home in the 'rich' section of town. The homeowner had maybe a 1000 gallon per minute flow building in his backyard, cascading over his custom 'rock-scape' like Niagra Falls. We started with four gas pumps, a mini-track-hoe and sandbags...while the second crew pulled his entertainment system out of the basement which was just starting to flood...The home was nice, maybe 2-2.5 Million.

The homeowner is wearing an all white, fancy sweatsuit...smoking a big fat cigar while cursing to someone on the phone. He shuts the phone and makes a comment about "speed it up" to the one female member of our crew...everyone stopped.

The Chief strolled over and suggested he 'lend a hand' or remain silent....to which a response in the wrong tone was uttered. The one cop on scene became 'uneasy' with his next potential role.

The Chief was on the radio in seconds... and we were completely picked up and gone in five minutes.

The last words said were "they're all volunteers and you are entitled to nothing, you stupid f%ck"

I think maybe we'll make him Chief again next year.

medicjim
Friday, April 20, 2007, at 02:15:46 (ZULU)

Medicjim:

I'm surprised it took you five minutes to get packed up :-)

The "man in white" certainly got what he deserved.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, April 20, 2007, at 02:32:19 (ZULU)

The trackhoe got entangled in his pool cover.

Click my name for some photos from the next town over that was hit a bit worse...

second photo link with fires

http://www.c-n.com/apps/pbcs.dll/tngallery?Site=B1&Date=20070416&Category=PIX03&ArtNo=704160801&Ref=PH&Params=Start=25

medicjim
Friday, April 20, 2007, at 02:34:21 (ZULU)

One of my guys got shot today.

Two skinheads robbed a store in the next town over. Fled. Wrecker drivers spotted 'em and jumped 'em up. Blue suits got after them and cornered them up in a canal.

Full of weeds and cat tails (bayou country down here). Chopper hovering about ten feet above where they were last seen.

One cop and one State trooper on that side of the canal with others spread out down the way.

SWAT (2 teams with shotguns, subguns and ARs) were just about to make a sweep from the opposite side of the canal (my side). Neck deep water/waist deep muddish quicksand stuff (two cops got stuck up to their necks).

Chopper rotor wash exposed BGs and FLIR signature gave 'em up.

Hidden down in the mud like crawfish. Not 30 feet from us.

The one officer on that side of the canal could not locate them with the vegetation blowing about and leaned out just a little to see where they were.

Pow. 9mm through and through in the upper thigh. He goes down ... SHIT!

Both he and the trooper were right in 25 cops line of fire.

Big time crossfire. 25 long guns couldn't shoot. DAMMIT !

Helpless feeling shit dudes I am here to tell ya ...

Cop's good. Released this pm. Was at the station laughing about it.

BGs busted.

SWAT callout and riot earlier this week.

Been toting a shotgun lately. Getting good mileage out of it.

New tactical buckshot is awesome stuff.

... There but for the grace of God go I. Yee ha !!!! ....

bk OUT

brian k. sain
Friday, April 20, 2007, at 03:31:38 (ZULU)

BKS... not good.

If they will shoot at cops, they need to die. Some day, "we the people" will figure out that folks that shoot cops cannot be allowed in society, not even twenty years later.

I'm glad to hear your guy is not too badly hurt.

medicjim
Friday, April 20, 2007, at 04:34:01 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Thanks for the link, some good info. Especially the part about where one can carry.

"...or within 1,000 feet of the premises of

an execution on the day of execution."

Gotta love Texas! Stay safe.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Friday, April 20, 2007, at 06:38:39 (ZULU)

BK,

Glad the guy is in good spirits. I don't know if an extra hole in me would have me cracking jokes. Oh do you shoot at Bayou? thinking of driving out that direction for a match or two this summer.

There is a new POLL on www.MSN.com

We are at 51% pro more gun rights.

Speed Racer, That's cause when killin needs done we want to make sure it's done right. Plus if some one off's the guy think of all the freakin wasted time setting every thing up. You got to get him they day before so cancelations can be done. HA..

Pat, those were good pics. Ijuts driving in 4 feet of water and thier cars die. Huh imagine that.

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, April 20, 2007, at 06:49:59 (ZULU)

Rich....Royalties payable in 45ACP hardball; preferably by the case.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, April 20, 2007, at 12:21:31 (ZULU)

Gents,

BKS, Glad your man is OK and the skinheads are in custody. A happy outcome except for the extra hole in your man's thigh. At least he can laugh about it and he'll have story to tell new guys when he's an old guy...

Civilians: My take was the same as some others on the forum. While in the Military I rankled at the LE types that called non-LE folks "civilians". In my mind there was no difference and if you were not military you WERE a civilian. I retired in '94 and have been working in Corrections for the past five years. That has changed my perspective, a bit, to say the least. You can argue Webster, semantics, or whatever, but what I have come to understand is that there is little difference between military and LE types. Both signed on to do a dirty dangerous job and believe that what they do makes a difference. Dave Grosman's "Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" my be the best example/explanation of this phenominum.

What I see is that our social structure is failing and the Military/LE types are trying to keep the lid on...while government leaders and the "civilians" try to tie their hands. This lack of support comes in many forms...political correctness, community hostility and lack of support for actions taken, and the fact that elected leaders are turning our nation into a third world cesspool.

The people I see every day are truely evil. Whether they are a gang-bangers, Rapists, Child Molesters, or whatever, they SHOULD NEVER be allowed back into society, IMHO. What I can tell you is that trash comes in all colors, sizes, and shapes. It may be skinheaded, tattooed, cross racial barriers, or speak a different language, and come from a different culture. The commonality is that it is EVIL and it doesn't care about anything but itself and it's own gratification. It exhists because we allow it to exhist. The old saying that "all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" is deadly accurate.

Police see the problem, politician's ignore it, and corrections folks see the end result and the proof of societal breakdown. It's sad when I have to refer to Corrections as a "growth industry".

It's funny that some civilians see the "protect and serve" image as meaning we should do what they want, ie. to "serve". The case of the rich bastard with the cigar is a case in point. That chief did the right thing and sent a clear message to the asshole. Hope they went to help folks that truely needed it. The same thing is evident in many of our elected officials. You don't have to look far to find stories and evidence of how the Clinton's treated their Secret Service details. These are the men that are sworn to protect them. Just once it would be nice to see them walk away and tell 'Hillary "good luck, your on your own". A reality check is needed. Of course they are professionals and would never do that. Which puts them head and shoulders about those they protect in many cases.

Dirty Steve, medicjim, and all. We do need to have friends and interests outside of our work environment. In my field the average life expectancy for an officer after retirement is 3 years. Which is one reason I don't hang out with the troops and my friends are, for the most part, not related to what I do in way, shape, or form. Hope to beat that 3 year average by a HUGE margin...;-)

Hey, I don't drink, smoke, and have a moderate interest in the opposite sex...stats are on my side! Of course sainthood is not going to be an option either...

Spent Wednesday training some folks in the use of the Beretta 92. I'm not a fan, mind you. The Marines experience with the M-9 has been anything but positive. What I saw merely cemented those feelings. Several of the almost new commercially produced 92's failed to feed. Not the classic stoppage, but lacked the power to strip a round from the magazine and chamber it. The guns were clean, but a bit dry. Lubing them worked, but they should have worked dry, IMHO.

An e-mail from a fellow instructor about the matter was interesting. He'd been part of the service trials when Beretta went head to head with SIG. He indicated that the staff favored the SIG by about a 5:1 margin. Beretta won on a slim price point and the fact that they agreed to build a plant in the US. The Marines refused to accept any more Beretta's partway through the transition from the 1911. To this day what you get is the luck of the draw. If you like the Beretta fine, but I won't carry one unless I change out every spring in them for high grade Wolff springs. That includes magazine springs as the Marine' magazines in DS/DS failed due to spring failure (lowest bidder). Problem was not corrected for Iraqi Freedom, either. Bastards...

All for now...today is my Monday and duty calls.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, April 20, 2007, at 18:03:18 (ZULU)

Just checking in and I figured as much after the bad week. Its the cops fault? Love the experts who never been shot tell what they would do if shot with little 9mm. Let me tell you it freakin hurts and better than 99 percent of folks dont attack when hurt they try and get away from it. You wont know your reaction until hit. I know been there, got hurt and attacked. Been there saw good men hurt and turn from thing that hurt them. Its basically an old brain response and only actual incident will tell you how you react. Me being firts generation in family to walk up right I act like wild animal when attacked.

You want to know why we have crazy people that walk around and then go crazier and kill folks? Its called a lack of money.

This case in VT. Lets see he was crazy eveyone knew it but he was allowed to walk around. Why? because no one has room to keep folks day in and day out who have not already did some real serious violent act. Many are like this guy and some of them will go off. Some wont. Bottom line is there are only places for people who have committed violent acts. Why no room? Simple no money for them. The tax payers of this country have voted in folks who use tax monies for other things and wont approve further monies to house folks not already proven to hurt folks.

Now in this case cops had this guy before for crazy/5150 WI, but they allowed him to slef commit. Why? simple. Money. You see a self commit will have to pay for his hospital stay, or his family will. A self commit can not sue officer or department for forced commit of 5150WI, so agency and system saves money. Problem is self comit does not go into a no gun record so nutt can purchase later on. Also self commit can walk out when they want. Why is this allowed. Money

Now before anyone is back on high horse look around your city and see all the homeless. You want to pay to house all of them times about ten to twnety times? If so we can probably keep this from happening again. If not "Gentelmen prepare to defend yourselves" as it will happen again (Line from We where Soldiers)

This attack of cops or others is just plain to make ourselves feel better. I am no longer a cop but 25 yeares before retiring gave me a little experience in dealing with crazies

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Friday, April 20, 2007, at 18:21:39 (ZULU)

Mike M: "Love the experts who never been shot tell what they would do if shot with little 9mm."

I love you too Mike.

What I'd do in that emergency is what the men in my family always do in emergencies. We do the obvious and we don't waste a bunch of time doing it.

CDC'
Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 00:40:04 (ZULU)

Holster question;

I need to get a nice fitting inside the waistband holster for a S&W Model 640. This is the snub-nose with concealed hammer. What I'm looking for is something that will work well when wearing jeans and shirt. Who makes a good holster for this purpose?

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 00:52:49 (ZULU)

Jody,

You might try www.miltsparks.com. I have one of their Summer Special 2 IWB holsters that I use with a Kimber and it's great.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The springtime Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 03:06:57 (ZULU)

Jody, try milt sparks. http://www.miltsparks.com/ They have been around for years and make nice stuff. You order you a 12 F/TR yet?

Dirty Steve.......

dirty steve
Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 03:07:10 (ZULU)

Ken Null does good work too. Ain't cheap, but as their motto says: Unseen in the best places.

WR Moore
Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 03:39:52 (ZULU)

6.5x47 Lapua Country -

A while back I mentioned that I was undertaking a new build featuring the relatively new 6.5x47 Lapua cartridge and a few of you asked that I keep you informed of my progress.

The donor rifle is a Savage FP10LE2B, which is one of their tactical versions with a 26" barrel in .308, their Accu-Trigger set at just under 2 lbs. pull weight, and a McMillan A3 stock.

JR at Border Barrels, I assume that most of you know this guy ;), just sent me one of his cut-rifled barrels chambered for this cartridge and is it ever a work of art. It's kind of a new project for Border barrels, as this new barrel is a contoured, chambered and threaded drop-in for the Savage bolt actions. Just the ticket for a diehard tinkerer like me.

The barrel specs are - Stainless, 8.5" twist, Obermeyer 5R rifiling, custom contour 1.055" at breach with a straight taper to .875" at a finished length of 28" with an 11* target crown. I can't begin to tell you how great this barrel looks under very close inspection. Thank you JR!

Anyway, I pulled the .308 barrel and installed the new Border barrel, set the headspace using a GO - NO GO gage set from Dave Kiff at PT&G. The barrel swap took less than 30 min. I set the barreled action into the McM A3 stock and epoxy bedded the action and barrel nut area using Pro-Bed 2000. By tomorrow it will have been curing for about 48 hrs. so it'll be time to install a Near Mfg. 10MOA Picatinny base and mount my Ackerman boosted Mk4 M1 10x (now 16x) scope using a brand new set of Badger .835" rings that I've had waiting around for this project to begin.

I'll begin load development and chronographing just as soon as this nasty weather front moves out of here and report back with the results. Stay tuned .....

ALAN
Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 05:16:35 (ZULU)

Damn, everyone else must be out shooting. Am I the only one that consistently gets sick enough to go to the doctor on Friday evenings, after the Doctor's office is closed?

Was wondering if any of you have experience with employment law/workers rights. I WAS working for an asbestos abatement company, but their containment was a joke! Safety was , too. Working in a wet environment, no ladders to get up wet scaffolding. When I told the guy from the Ks. Dept. of Health and environment I was quitting, he said he didn't blame me. It was that bad. Who's ear do I need to twist to shut these jerks down?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 19:25:10 (ZULU)

Travis:

I'm not very familiar with the US regs, but OSHA comes to mind. They tend to be more involved with enviromental stuff as opposed to mechanical hazards issues. It's a big stick if they get involved, so be sure you don't want to cross that bridge again before you light it up.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 21:03:47 (ZULU)

Jody, personal favorite is the Texas Heritage from Tucker Leather. They are a little pricey but the quality can't be beat! Comfortable from day one. Have 2 one for a G36 and another for XD 45, which also fits my XD 9 but a little loose.

Just some plain fine leather!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 21:31:19 (ZULU)

Food for thought : http://leveron.com/john/rights/ (posters and links describing a cure) or click my name below

[OK, enough typing, back out to the range!]

John
Mid-MO, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 22:24:43 (ZULU)

Travis,

I would thinik OSHA or the EPA , possibly both, would deal with asbetos issues. OSHA with your safety. EPA to be a pain in your employers butt. Check your States government website for help also.

Don't worry about not getting to the range. You may pull some dumb stunt like I did today. I drove 60 miles one way to the range and forgot ear plugs. They were still in my old range bag. It was 10 miles to Wally Werld so I shot as best I could with napkins from Sonic in my ears.

I hadn't shot my GA rifle in a year. Glad to see my dope was still spot on. 500 yards gave me fits with wind. It was gusty with only short pauseing between gusts.

I did get to play with the Savage 223. It shot well at 500. The wind wasnt as bad when I was playing with it.

Dirty Steve.......

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 22:48:47 (ZULU)

ALAN,

This may be a dumb question, but when mounting a barrel, do you use some type of thread-locker? If this is obvious to everyone else, we can take it offline.

Thx, Duman.

PS - Dirty Steve - I've been in a similar situation. I finally bought a bag of 100 pairs of plugs, and scattered them everywhere. Car, truck, bags, fanny packs, backpacks, toolboxes, shaving kit....

Duman
Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 23:19:21 (ZULU)

Alan,

After the wife and kid finally went to a match with me, and couldn't figure for themselves to bring hearing protection, I just bought extra, and keep it in the wife's glovebox. My wife asked me why I didn't pack it. I said, "WHAT part of 'we're going to a shooting match did you not get?'" (this was the day after I spent $400 on Rx shooting glasses)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 00:13:45 (ZULU)

Travis: Rather than dragging the government in to bully your employer, why don't you just look the guy in the eye and talk to him man to man?

CDC'
Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 01:33:27 (ZULU)

Duman -

No thread locking stuff on barrel threads. That's probably the last thing you'd want to use. What you want is some type of lubricant to keep the threads from galling and also to ease disassembly when the time comes. Important when installing a barrel into an action made of a similar metal. Rule of thumb - dissimilar metals don't tend to gall when screwed together like similar metals do.

A rather divese assortment of lubricants will work on barrel to action threads including bearing grease (synthetic is best), moly, dedicated "barrel assembly paste" as sold by outfits like Brownells, and my favorite - nickel based anti seize compound from the local hardware store.

ALAN
Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 01:57:25 (ZULU)

CDC,

I'm not sure but from Travis posted. "When I told the guy from the Ks. Dept. of Health and environment I was quitting, he said he didn't blame me." Sounds to me like the conditions are so bad he(the boss or owner) could not help but realize the working conditions are horrible. When you get a greedy person running some place be it big or small he won't care who he hursts till he is made to care. Enron was a prime example of some one not caring who he or they hurt to put money in thier own pocket. Just my 2 cents worth. I could be wrong it happens.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 03:19:27 (ZULU)

In case of emergency break glass?

http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=35789&siteSection=1

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 03:26:55 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: I was an industrial and public works abrasive and industrial coatings contractor in California.

Representatives of the _ _ _ (insert three letters at random) could have come in and crippled my ass at any time, day or night. Let me give you an example just one of my innumerable infractions.

One agency has a whole long list of verbotten materials for which unauthorized transport, storage and container disposal is fined at the rates of - if I remember correctly - $20,000, $10,000 per day and $100,000 plus possible jail time. Failure to keep proper records was another $100,000 or so. That's ANY quantity and it's PER INGREDIENT.

On the list I recognized 1-1-1 trichloroethane. I figured the half empty bottle of whiteout on my desk represented a liability of well over a million bucks.

That was one page of rules from one agency. There are lots and lots of agencies with lots and lots and lots of pages of rules with lots and lots of career coffee drinkers to enforce them arbitrarily and capriciously.

One of those guys doesn't like the company Travis works for? Very few of those guys like any company anybody works for. The "Private Enterprise as Enemy" attitude seems to come with the the crackerjack degree.

CDC'
Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 05:54:26 (ZULU)

Well, with the earth spinning and all, the boys all qualed back to 800 Friday. With that out of the way we can now train hard on unk distance rapid aquisition and other important issues. Yesterday we shot the entire course with 500 dope. Went great for the first time.

I am just happy the guns are hanging in there. Gonna try 9 and the grand for fam this week.

__________________

Semper Fi

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 15:20:06 (ZULU)

Travis,

For the last 5 years my job has been to deal with OSHA on a daily basis. As an employee, ex-employee or just a concerned citizen, you can call your local OSHA office and make a complaint about safety issues on any jobsite. This can be done anonamously. For more info go to osha.gov.

It is a violation of CFR 1926 subpart L to use a scaffold without a ladder.Also the scaffold must be inspected daily , before work starts.

The scaffolr regulations goes on for several pages. The asbestos reg goes on for chapters.

Call OSHA and make a complaint. It is the right thing to do. These companies continue their sloppy ways until someone calls or a worker gets killed. Usually the worker that gets killed is a young guy just starting out and he can't get a job anywhere else.

Thanks for listening.

Stan Caniglia
Hudson, oh, - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 15:35:36 (ZULU)

Mike, Darren-

I'm not going to make the F-class shoot in San Jose we talked about earlier. I'm driving down to Palmdale for a tactical match on Saturday and hoping to fish for salmon on Sunday. I think there is still one spot open for that match if either of you are interested.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area , CA, - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 17:22:40 (ZULU)

'lito,

I seem to remember a discussion a couple months back about a

chronograph that had the 35P beat hands down. My memory tells me you

had one and liked it. Can you remind me of the maker? Thanks.

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 17:52:27 (ZULU)

Jim, did you use the new PDA program from CheyTac to correct for the coriolis effect?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 19:58:22 (ZULU)

Travis,

In Wisconsin, besides OSHA the DNR has inspectors that do regular inspections of contractors. It's possible your DNR does the same, and if I remember right the guy in-charge here in Wisconsin came from Kansas.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Sunday, April 22, 2007, at 22:37:51 (ZULU)

Canadian ground troops in A'stan (photo gallery):

http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?main=gallery&cid=428

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 00:04:04 (ZULU)

Ok, anyone feel free: I need some advice on a spotting scope. I was perfectly happy with my 25X 50mm Lupy until it got "disappeared". So, I'm looking to replace it with something similar....size/weight wise. I'm not saying what price but if there's a good "quality/price" scope out there, say it out!

A bit bigger might be OK...but portability is prime, as would be waterproofing and "ding-resistant" finish (i.e. rubber armored). I have a bench scope already.

I'm betting 'lito has an opinion?

Thanks!

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USofA - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 01:11:44 (ZULU)

SteveinButte: I'll give you a deal on a loopy just like the one that disappeared.

CDC'
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 01:47:24 (ZULU)

There was a B-17 at a local airport, providing rides for a fee. I was ~2-miles away, when this beast lifted off. It was spectacular. This thing was huge, even from that distance. I can't imagine what the Germans thought, with thousands of these filling the sky, dropping ordnance.

Duman
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 01:48:12 (ZULU)

CDC,

Just because I knew YOU would be displeased if I didn't, I DID talk to the employer beforehand. He's a total piece of mierde, and there's NO WAY he would not have known these conditions existed. Their containment was a TOTAL joke.

For example: Coming out of the contained area, you must have: An equipment room, seperated from containment area with flappy kinda doors like they have in a butcher shop cooler. Then, you must have a shower room, so employees aren't spreading asbestos all over town, their car, home, and family. This MUST have hot and cold running water. It also needs to have another flappy door. Then, you need to have a clean room. They had NONE of this. They cut a fucking hole in the vizqueen for an exit! (Next to the largest intersection In Wichita!)

As for the load out, area; they opened about an 8'X8' area of the containmet, facing the street. You drive by, you're looking DIRECTLY INTO THE CONTAINMENT.

So, as you can see, CDC, you most definitely ASSumed too much.

BTW, guys, picked up a Winchester 1897 "E" takedown model for $150

today. Sure took the sting out of selling my mini!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 02:03:58 (ZULU)

Travis,

I don't know anything about you or your situation. I've been in the trades most of my life and I've been a superintendent for the last 12 or so. Maybe my view is distorted because I'm management but there comes a time when you, as a man, have to decide if a particular job is what you want. I hate to see guys who piss and moan all the time about how hard life is or what a dick the boss is when all they have to do is go find some other place to work. I never felt a need to try to backdoor fuck an employer for hurting my feelings or cheating me at bonus time. If I didn't like him or the company I'd tell him or discuss it IN FRONT OF HIM with his boss. Can't stand that behind the back or behind closed doors shit. Then if that didn't work I'd just leave. Period. You won't feel any true sense of vindication by taking a potshot from behind the protection of an anonymous phone call, which by the way, will probably be figured out by your employer anyway. That could ruin your name in the business too.

Just think about it and come back here talking about guns not work ;)

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area , CA, - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 02:30:28 (ZULU)

CDC: Email inbound off the roster on the Leupy spotter deal?

Thanks!

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 03:07:56 (ZULU)

It may be time to lay in a supply of the mags of your choice.

Marc: Center hit.

CDC'
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 03:48:06 (ZULU)

Had a tough choice to make today. Shoot, or do chores. Well, since I hit 50, I've had this really ugly malady come upon me that periodically makes me do the right thing. So.....it worked out ok, though,as I HATE cedar. I've been killing it left and right, ripping through it like a sailor in a whorehouse on his first shore leave. One problem with it, if you cut it down, ya gotta do something with it, so I spent hours burning it today. Good day for it, cloudy, misty, and with all the rain we've had, everything excepth the cedar was soaked. Helpful hint #137....if you shave yer head, and yer gonna burn cedar, WEAR A HAT! People are gonna wonder how you get cigarett burns on the top of your head....

Spoke to the other half today, actually had lunch with her. I think that she's getting a sneaky suspicion that she f**ked up.

Has anyone had any timing problems with AR10 shorties? I went from a collapsible stock to the A2 type, as I have no use for s stock that is occasionally to short to use. And almost immediately started getting extraction problems. Proper spring, proper buffer, ammo worked before. Brass punches right out, practically falls out after you clear it, but the case rims show definite shearing from the extractor. Classic timing problems. I don't want to go back to the coll. stock, anyone have any luck adding weight to the buffer to slow down the inital bolt carrier movement?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 04:18:45 (ZULU)

Marc,

I'm not trying to fuck anybody. I'm trying to keep people from being hurt!

Being management, as usual, you miss the HUGE ASS POINT! This is about SAFETY! I know foremen and supers give orientation talks about safety, then forget it as soon as they walk out of the room, but these jerks are messing with people's LIVES! Friable asbestos is NOT something to play with!

I've been upfront and honest about all this shit, and it's a small enough job that there's NO WAY the foreman and the owners of the company would be unaware of this stuff.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 04:20:24 (ZULU)

Guys,

Have any of you converted a Winchester 94 in .44 mag to .45 colt? I was wondering if I'd be able to do it with just a barrel swap, since I've found the .44 locally pretty cheap.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 04:27:32 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt -

This might sound like a dumb question, but have you thoroughly cleaned the chamber? As you're probably aware the fired case momentarily sticking to the walls of the chamber during extraction can cause the problem that you describe. That's the easiest thing to check, and it's free ;)

If it's actually a timing problem, and AR10's have been known to have them, the best cure is to install a SSS (David Tubb) carrier weight system. This is a drop-in set of weights that install inside the bolt carrier. You choose the correct weight by a trial-and-error method, increasing the weight until the bolt stays locked long enough to eliminate the violent extraction. This system really works and also reduces the AR10 tendency to break bolt stops.

Check it out at www.SuperiorShootingSystems.com

ALAN
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 06:09:06 (ZULU)

Bipod technique question-

I just started shooting my across the course bolt gun in tactical matches with a scope and using a bipod. I'm very happy with it so far since I just won my first 1K match at Sacramento this month by a wide margin (easy wind on first relay). Even with that great score I did have some problems that first appeared in practice earlier. I occasionally get some flyers out to 11:00 and they vary from just noticeable to just over a minute out from center. This happens about 2 or 3 out of 10 shots. This never happens when I shoot this rifle off of my pack or from a pedestal rest where it's consistently sub-half moa. It never happened to me with my SCLE rifle either. It's gotta be something I'm doing. Whaddya think?

I'd be grateful if some of you knowledgeable coaches like Rick, Jim, Mike and Lindy could do a run down of the physical elements of bipod prone for me. How your body aligns, where you do and do not feel muscle tension etc. I'd like to hear all of the details your willing to type out for me.

Saw a news headline today "VT Gunman bought clips from E-Bay!". Ya. Here it comes.

Thanks Guys,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 06:56:14 (ZULU)

Click my name.

Guys,

I saw that news story about where he got his mags., too. I suppose, NOW, they'll tell us where he got his tactical tighty-whities.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 07:48:19 (ZULU)

Shamelessly cribbed from hotair.com:

"Our lawmakers have felt the bruising of pro second amendment supporters before and will again if this lunacy goes too far.

"Those poor kids at VTech were like chickens put up for the night in the coop, confined and completely defenseless when the Weasel came to kill them.

"From Patriot Post:

“Virginia Tech has a very sound policy”

"In 2002, at the Appalachian School of Law just up the road from Virginia Tech, a Nigerian student, who had flunked out, returned to campus, murdered three people and wounded three others. Fortunately, his killing spree was interrupted by two students who had retrieved handguns from their vehicles and held the murderer at gunpoint until police arrived.

"This intervention was not unprecedented.

"In 1997, an assistant principal in Pearl, Mississippi, retrieved a handgun from his car and apprehended a murderer. A few days later, a copycat assault in Edinboro, Pennsylvania, ended after a nearby merchant wielding a shotgun forced the attacker to surrender. Off campus, it is estimated conservatively that gun owners use their weapons defensively more than 1.3 million times each year.

"With that as a backdrop, last spring Virginia Tech admonished a student for having a handgun on campus—never mind that the student had a state-issued concealed-carry permit.

"That admonishment was a motivating factor behind a proposed bill before the Virginia legislature to prevent academic institutions from enacting “rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed-handgun permit… from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun.”

"The legislation died in committee, prompting Tech’s associate vice president, Larry Hincker, to praise the General Assembly in a Roanoke (Virginia) Times op-ed: “I’m sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly’s actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus. We believe guns don’t belong in the classroom. In an academic environment, we believe you should be free from fear.” Yea, that worked great.

"A month later, there was a murder near Tech’s campus, prompting a lockdown.

"In response, Tech grad student Bradford Wiles penned an op-ed in the campus paper calling on the school to allow those with concealed-carry permits to carry guns on campus should they choose.

"Larry Hincker emerged again, protesting, “[I]t is absolutely mind-boggling to see the opinions of Bradford Wiles. Surely, [the editors] scratched their heads saying, ‘I can’t believe he really wants to say that.’ Guns don’t belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same.”

Congratulations Mr. Hinkler. Your “sound policy” created a “safe campus” for only one student—Cho Seung-Hui—who was able to slaughter 32 people without interruption. "

CDC'
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 09:45:09 (ZULU)

CDC,

Good post. For someone I so often wanna choke, I think I agree with you more often than not. Did you check out the death clock? We apparently need more laws about issuing driver's licenses, and restricting the use and purchase of vehicles.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., 67217 - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 10:05:53 (ZULU)

When shooting off a bipod, I get straight behind the rifle. That reduces the tendency of the barrel to wander during recoil, and also provides a consistent position. The military used to teach prone shooting with your body at an angle. However, unless your angle is consistent from shot to shot, you'll have problems. The heavier the recoil, the more problems - try shooting a Barrett M82 with your body angled, and you'll have trouble hitting the target on the first shot, much less on subsequent ones.

If shooting off the ground, I also dig the bipod feet in a bit, and put some forward tension on the bipod legs by moving my entire body a bit forward while keeping my alignment straight behind the rifle.

Contemporary wisdom is that horizontal shot dispersion is the result of either a bad natural point of aim, or bad trigger control. Vertical shot dispersion is the result of bad breath control. Angled shot dispersion is caused by both. Try to break each shot at the natural pause when you have finished exhaling. That will collapse your rib cage as far as it's going, in a consistent manner.

Make sure you're not "dragging wood", i.e., that your trigger finger is not rubbing on the stock, and press the trigger straight to the rear using the pad of your finger midway between the tip and the joint.

In shorter terms, apply the fundamentals of marksmanship as consistently as you can.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 11:44:17 (ZULU)

Alan, thanks for the tip. Yeah, the chamber's clean, cleaner'n a Somali dinner plate. I find the idea of adding anything to the bolt carrier a bit unsettling....any possibility of something coming loose in the upper housing group is not something I'd like to entertain. I added a few grains to the weights inside the recoil buffer, instead. I haven't had time to test it since, but I'm thinking that if I can slow down the rearward motion of the carrier by just a millisecond or so, the chamber pressure will drop enough to allow easy extraction. Or, maybe a powder with a faster pressure peak....like AA2230? I'm using Varget, 'cuz I want to stick with one powder and bullet, life's complicated enuff already.

Anyone pick up on Cheryl Crowe's idea for dealing with global warming? Why do these idiots think they know anything about climatology, and why does anyone listen to these cretins? Sheesh....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 16:40:00 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt -

The carrier weight system is good-to-go! Nothing will come loose :)

It is the most practical and efficient way of slowing down the bolt. The AMTU uses it. Perhaps Sinister will chime in if he's listening. I first heard about it from him several years ago.

Keep your Varget load. I use the same Varget/175SMK load in my AR10(T) that I've used in all of my .308 boltguns for years. It works perfectly.

Adding weight to the buffer will slow down bolt bounce, one of the ills of rapid firing, but I'm not so sure that it's practical to add enough weight to the buffer to delay the bolt carrier groups movement on initial extraction. But you might prove me wrong. It's not as if I haven't been wrong before :)

Please post your findings.

ALAN
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 17:34:47 (ZULU)

What a weekend for shooting!! We were up on the mountain doing some stuff for ASC in May and shot a fair amount Sat. and Sun.. Weather was in the 70s with light winds and sunshine. New S&B scope with computer generated mil. data is a very good deal. Don't know if the shot will be in the match, but we've now got another long one at 1k+20% and change. It is truly a pretty long poke.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 19:34:39 (ZULU)

**********SNIPERQUEST**********

OK gang even though SQ07 isn't until September I've already heard back from sponsors such as Norm Chandler, Dillon,5.11, Pro-Shot, SWFA, Redding, CamelBak and a few others. The Sponsor page sould be up and going in a few days so keep watching it!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 19:43:17 (ZULU)

10 shot magazines???

How could that be - Sarah Bradey promised up that 10 round magazines were safe, and it was the 11 and larger magazines that killed people!!

They must have made a mistake!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 20:25:14 (ZULU)

Marc, on sundays match. Did I misunderstand you before? I thought it was sign up at door and plenty of room for all? If thats changed let me know. I will go middle of no where and shoot before driving down there to be turned away.

On bipod techniques Lindy covered it well except verticla stringing is also caused by ammo. You can have ammo that one holes at 100-300 ayrds and wille at your butt at 1000 yards. This is why chronograpgh is helpful. Get extreme spread under 10fps and you usually ahvea 1000 yard winner.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 20:53:43 (ZULU)

What the Undude said...

Last year I was testing loads and the best group (.28"-ish) came from a load that had an ES of 110fps. At 200 yds it's good, but on a crow at 400-500 it'd be up and down all over the place.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 21:07:42 (ZULU)

Duman,

I just got home. Been out for five days this time. I saw that you apologized. No need. My post wasn't written as well as it should have been. My fault.

Dirty Steve,

I don't know for sure, but I am guessing that your "beat" is a bit tougher than mine. I recall many years ago while I was attending college, and representatives from Fort Worth TX came to recruit police officers from our school. They were offering nearly three times what the local police agencies were paying. They explained to us in fine detail that they have such a turn over in officers because of burnout. They said five years was a long time to stay at their department. We were also guaranteed to be involved in at least one gunfight during our first year. One of my buds took their offer. He lasted four years. His face has the scars to prove it, and he won his fights.

Mr. Moore,

Traffic Control can be the most frustrating duty available. Its difficult to remain calm, and not get mad at stupid people when they insist on being stupid.

Bravo,

See if there is an agency nearby that allows civilians...er, I mean "non-sworn" persons to do a ride-along with an officer during his shift. That might help the young man decide if LE is for him.

Travis,

There has always been the "us vs. them" attitude. Its not productive, but its there regardless. Its works both ways too. Some people just hate cops. Always have, always will. (Not that you, or anyone here is in that group) Our agency has a "Citizens Police Academy". Its a ten week program that allows enrollees to get a sample of what our officers are trained to do. They basically get three hours training one night a week in several main courses that police recruits are required to take. What it has done is create an educated citizenry that can explain to their friends, neighbors, etc. about what we do, and why we do it. Its been a big help in improving relations between "Us", and the folks we serve. The best police officers I have seen, or worked with are really good actors. They can change their character to fit any situation. Unless you know them personally, and see them off duty you have no idea who they are. They taught me that if you seperate your personal identity from your professional identity you won't stay mad all the time, and will tend to do the right thing at work, and at home. Seems to work.

Best regards,

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 21:47:30 (ZULU)

CDC’, any reason in particular that picking up mags at this time might be smarter than any other time? (honest question, as it appears 1022 was stillborn).

Pat II, got your e-mail this morning, look for a reply soon ;-) Been a bit busy (understatement) lately.

Chuck, keep the good news coming!

Now how about the Lapdog? My Canook buddy gave me a Lapdog dummy round, and I started thinking hard. The ArmaLite AR30 in Lapdog supposedly comes in at 12 pounds sans optics. What’s the optimal barrel length for that round? Anyone with experience with the AR30? At half the weight and half the price of the AR50, I’m thinking it may need to be put ‘on the list’.

Alan, can I buy a vowel, and ask for the weight on the barrel JR sent you? Sounds like a nice taper, although I wonder if it’s too heavy for my application.

It seems Dirty Steve, Doc and I agree on holsters as well. No surprise there. And speaking of the Dirty One!

Steve, slight mix-up. The kiddo I’m helping out isn’t my son, my boy is still too young for anything too much. Hopefully my son will set a new standard for the family though, and do well on the rifleman course next month. That wouldn’t be odd for my family, but being formally accomplished that young would be a first. I’m trying to give him every ‘cheat’ I can: a top-flight stick from Geoff, good ammo, and hopefully one of Patron Mike’s slings (HA! That’s the POLITE way to prod Mike LOL!).

Thanks for the recommendation Bill, I'll pass that on!

As mentioned, there are slews of OSHA regs on asbestos. It’s about the only special section that I don’t have to worry about. As such, yes, asbestos can be nasty. Use some common sense though ‘cause OSHA won’t. If you have respiratory protection and proper decon, then the only other thing to concern yourself with would be keeping it contained (note, I’m talking about physical containment, not what OSHA determines is ‘containment’). Would that pass an OSHA inspection? No. I run my place to pass OSHA inspections, and do so regularly. They’re overboard on several issues (I go by ‘em, but they’re overboard – OSHA regs weren’t written by chemists, industrial hygienists, or medical doctors!) so USE COMMON SENSE. IMO, either OSHA or EPA can just about shut down any business they want to. Typically EPA has a vested interest as the majority of the state EPA funds normally come from fines. OSHA is a bit different, but state OSHA varies. Literally, if it’s a matter life or health, call OSHA. If it’s not a matter of life or health, but merely going by regs, let that dog lie, eh? BTW, when it’s in the building and being worked with, it’s in the OSHA ballpark. When it’s contained (defined as waste), sent off, and destroyed its EPA’s territory – except when its ‘in transport’ as it belongs to DOT then.

Bravo
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 22:25:21 (ZULU)

hay all

sory but i do not understand why dont you gun folks support

a visit to the family Doktor for the first gun permit ?

it may save lifes dont you think ?

p/s in israel it's a must for any gun application, for sivilans, end

police men as well.

avi

avi
haifa, israel, is - Monday, April 23, 2007, at 22:57:58 (ZULU)

Bravo -

Sorry, I never weighed the barrel. Never thought to! Besides, the only scale in my house is an old RCBS 5-0-5 :) The shipping tube listed 2.65kg so considering the weight of that and the packing I'd guess at about 5 lbs for the barrel. JR might be lurking and he could probably give you the exact weight. It's a perfect profile for a Savage build. And I thought it up all by myself ;) It fits the channel in the McMillan A3 with just enough clearance to provide a good free float yet it doesn't sit in there like a toothpick in a raingutter.

ALAN
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 23:12:21 (ZULU)

avi -

You think we should rely on a Doctor to decide whether or not we should be able to own a firearm. You must be joking!! Doctors already think that they're Gods, and that's bad enough. Also remember that Mengele was a Doctor.

Before making a comment like that a person really needs to read and understand our Bill of Rights and our Constitution, along with some US history. I'm not saying this in anger, but it appears that you just don't get it.

ALAN
Monday, April 23, 2007, at 23:18:46 (ZULU)

Thanks for that Lindy.

Mike- As I understand the Sunday F-class match in San Jose will be a walk on with room for all. The match I mentioned with only one slot left is on Saturday in southern CA near Palmdale (Saugus). It sounds like a field oriented and difficult shoot so I'm driving down for it with another competitor from Santa Cruz. I plan on going to other matches in So Cal and Nevada as much as possible this summer. Hopefully I can make a trip to Badlands or Rifles Only in the fall. I just can't get enough of rifle shooting these days.

The flyers out to 11:00 I mentioned happen at 100 yards also and stay within about one moa from center. My velocity spreads are really tight and this problem only happens when I'm on the bipod and only with this rifle. I'm sure I'm neglecting something in the fundamentals that I got away with when shooting my heavier SCLE rifle. Nightly dry firing while going through a long mental check list on each shot should help.

Thanks fellas,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 00:12:56 (ZULU)

Anyone,

Can you recommend a chronograph other than the 35P?

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 01:44:06 (ZULU)

Alan I could not possible agree more. I'm so Fn'' sick of us having to become like the Europeans. Scumbuckets. Let the entire world ride all over you and let the US bail you out.

Our constitution may as well be toilet paper to the left. I'm getting really nervous with this more & more gun law crap.

I just heard in PA "legislation" was "introduced" so each year you have to register firearms.

I'm in NJ. If anything more than all the crap thats going around is going to force me to move it's shit like this.

A doctor for permission? What does a goddamn doctor know? You have to be kidding me. I'm still searching for one that knows his ass from a hole in the ground. I diagnose myself more accurately.

The Eurotrash is reading entirely too much from our press.

I'm not calling you Eurotrash Avi, I'm just saying.

Like Alan says, you just don't get it. As a whole lot it seems over here doesn't.

doug sickels
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 02:24:10 (ZULU)

Mark re:chronographs

It's not richly featured, but it does the job.

The Shooting Chrony (made in Canada :-)

It has distribution in the US too.

http://shootingchrony.com/

Available in basic and advanced models.

Ellett Brothers, Brownell's, Precision Reloading and Sinclair International (among others) all sell them.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 03:40:19 (ZULU)

avi: The right to keep and bear arms is one of our fundamental God given rights. Some half-assed biologist with a God complex doesn't count.

Bravo: I figured good mags were going to get bid up in anticipation of legislation that may not happen. A couple of months ago you could get all the C-Products AR mags you wanted for ten bucks a pop. Laying in a supply looks like a prudent move to me.

MarcS: I'm taking the opportunity of your post to write a few things down. None of this meant as a lecture to anybody, particularly to you.

My checklist:

Uniform pressure at every point the rifle contacts the shooter or supports such as the ground or sandbags.

Zero cant.

Natural point of aim coincident with desired point of impact.

Crosshairs oscillating between 6:00 and 12:00, with 6:00 being point of aim.

Mentally isolate crosshair/POA picture and pad of right index fingertip. Feel the fingertip on the trigger.

Release as much air as wants to go.

Desired sight picture causes second joint in right index finger to HINGE gently but decisively to push the button STRAIGHT BACK.

Consciously see the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin.

CDC'
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 04:07:40 (ZULU)

Oh yeah, as Lindy said, forward tension on the bipod. My half-baked theory is that a lot of long range horizontal dispersion blamed on missed wind calls aren't due to missed wind calls at all. The problem is rifle cant.

CDC'
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 04:23:02 (ZULU)

Avi "gets it" just fine...

Those of you dismissing him are the ones who are missing something here...

See, a nut got a gun...a nut with a history of being a nut; a nutjob who was singled out as a nutjob long before filling out his paperwork for his firearms. A nut on drugs known to cause violent episodes. Yet this guy blew thru the silly-assed barriers that our gun control fellow citizens dumped on us.

So, in the aftermath, the obvious question is/ will be: How to prevent nutjobs from lying about mental history on their fed forms? Or, how do we later prevent aspects of medical history from becoming open records for such checks? How do we keep suppositions, affidavits and heresay statements from becoming de-facto blocks to OUR second ammendment rights (conviction of crazy without any trial)???

Avi raises a good point...if we do not have any better ideas to keep guns from psycho a-hats, someone will write a bill that dumps this or a worse idea upon us. The media will cherry pick other, lesser violent acts where psychos have gun access to move on us...at least we should do is think about it. Avi's idea may not sit well with you (or me)---but do ya got a better idea? Stonewall the antis? Might work. Then again, you may also need to see a doctor to buy your next gun. At least think before you condemn.

I came by here to explain my absense....

And found the same shit that made me leave in the first place. I guess if some of you thought of others here as highly as you hold yourself and your opinions (held as facts), there would be a tad more respect for differing opinions--or indeed, mission profiles. Sadly, I find this place changed subtly to that not of my liking...

Maybe i'll try again in a few months. Meantime, I am having a grand time spending ammo like gold (quite so), teaching my boy the finer points of the guvmint auto, and sight picture to a peanut....good times. Kid may well be in Iraq by fall....where the hell does time go?

Old friends, my email workie...stay in touch. And hawgs, try leaving all this shooting at the range. Come here to be challenged with thought instead of trying out yer latest quick-draw techniques on each other. It was that quality that hooked me in at first. There is a "BS line" to be sure....but there is also a whole bunch of territory and technique to the "right" of that line...

Joe M
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 04:38:10 (ZULU)

I, for one, won't miss the lectures!

And I'll leave it at that.

ALAN
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 04:46:07 (ZULU)

Now back to comments on shooting.

As has been said here more than once...

You can't cant.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 04:59:52 (ZULU)

Avi...

Please understand that your country and ours are very different. So are our "doctors".... and their attitude towards the "gun culture".

Most doctors in this country are anti-gun, so their opinion about whether you should have a gun or not is already skewed against you. And they don't want to take responsibility for saying "YES", so it's easier to say "NO".

My "Ex" told a doctor that my son was Attention Deficit Hyper active Disorder and Learning Disabled, so the doctor diagnosed him as ADHD/LD WITHOUT ANY TESTS...

Then another doctor saw the report of the first doctor, and repeated the "diagnosis", and it kept be repeated over and over... my son was put in a class for learning disabled, and he crashed.

See the problem is that on an IQ test with a maximum score of 138, my son tested 138 in half of the time he was allowed.

My son is a certified genius (he takes after the ol' man ;).

He wasn't ADHD/LD... he was just sooooo fucking bored, that he just quit.

Now it has taken SIX years for me to get that label taken off of him, but he is still in a school for the learning disabled... and he is on the honor roll - ???

And none of the doctors and other professionals can be held accountable for their error in diagnosis, because, "It's an opinion"!!

The doctors in this country can say what they want, and have no responsibility for their errors in the field of psychology, because it's "all opinions".

"Can you have a gun - "NO", but that's my opinion, so you can't sue me if I deprive you of your rights to own a gun, even if I'm wrong... and why do you want to own more than one gun? Are you gun crazy?"

Your doctors all have military experence, and guns are a natural thing for your people.

Not here - none of our doctors have been in the military, and they hate the military... and they hate guns.

As to the guy last week... that was a different matter - a court found him to be a certified nut case, SEVERAL TIMES. He was found guilty of stalking women on more than one occasion - this is a crime in this country - stalking women means that you are not allowed to own a gun. but the courts did nothing about it.

I would have no constitutional problems denying this sick turd access to firearms... in fact he should have had his own room in the "Happy Hotel".

Mark...

The CED chronograph is excellent - bought one and sold my Oehler 35-P.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 08:44:24 (ZULU)

Nasty insomnia.

On the pre-shot checklist I wrote:

"Uniform pressure at every point the rifle contacts the shooter or supports such as the ground or sandbags."

A little more detail:

As Lindy said, body directly behind rifle. Butt of rifle pulled into shoulder by large muscles in back. Don't pull hard enough to introduce any muscular strain. It's important to use the large back muscles because the harder a muscle works, the more it induces oscillations. Oscillation=wobble. Large muscles strain less than small muscles. The rifle is not gripped by the right hand. The three fingers not pulling the trigger are curled but do not grip the rifle. If you grip, those three fingers move sympathetically as the trigger is pressed. Also, if you grip the rifle, the small muscles in the forearm strain. Muscular strain introduces oscillation.

I'm familiar with two cases for the use of the left hand in the bipod prone position. One is the "beanie baby prone" as shown to me by Mike Miller. The other is the shooting glove technique described on this board by Ranger Rick. Rick's instructions would be worth looking up if anybody is actually reading this and is interested.

The right (duh) cheek is placed on the comb at the exact same place every time. The muscles in the back of the neck are relaxed to allow the weight of the shooter's head to completely rest on the rifle. This does three (maybe) important things; It increases the effective weight of the rifle thus reducing recoil A LOT, it keeps the rifle from getting a running start before it whacks you in the face and it makes the effective weight of the rifle more uniform.

The last two points are worth considering. You don't want the rifle to whack you in the face. If it does, your body will learn involentarily (sp?) to anticipate the shot. That interferes with the fundamentally important later step of "seeing the crosshairs on the target through the fall of the firing pin". The Rooskies did a lot of research in this area.

You want a uniform effective rifle weight (did I just make that up?) because the boolet leaves the riffle while the riffle is in recoil. Different riffle weight=different point in recoil arc at which boolet leaves the barrel = vertical stringing.

CDC'
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 10:57:35 (ZULU)

Doctors and guns: Some Earth Cookie Doctor from some idiot federal agency diagnosed my son as being developmentally disabled. She never asked him a question or even looked him in the eye.

He finished the University's pre algebra textbook when he was eight and scored at eleventh year, seventh month (High School Junior, seventh month) on the state's standardized reading test when he was nine.

Yeah, "developmentally disabled".

My ex-neurologist misses so many easy calls that he's lucky he gets to bury his mistakes. If he was a cook, nobody would stay for dessert.

My academic advisor had me grade, tutor and lecture graduate psychology students in some medium rigorous statistics.

You wouldn't have much faith in 'em either.

CDC'
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 11:50:29 (ZULU)

I thought Rick's idea of gripping the rear sling swivel with a gloved hand made sufficient sense that I stopped using a rear bag some time ago. I use Nomex aircraft-crew gloves, though, rather than a padded shooting glove. The padding would be nice, but it tends to hinder flexibility.

My AI doesn't have a rear sling swivel to grip, but it does have an Accushot Monopod on it, which works splendidly.

Not having to move a rear bag around also makes transitions between positions much faster, and the gloved hand works very much better when shooting moving targets.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 13:10:35 (ZULU)

'lito,

Thanks for the info on CED.

rod regier,

Thanks, I have considered the Shooting Chrony.

CDC'

'Earth Cookie' has a nice ring to it; can I borrow it?

Mark

Mark Taylor
West Virginia, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 16:26:11 (ZULU)

Mark,

I've heard them also referred to as "Earth Muffins".

FWIW, YMMV

Duman
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 16:34:55 (ZULU)

Guys...

Wazza "Earth Cookie" or a "Earth Muffin"????

Sounds like a left over hippy babe from the 60's without a bra, that only tokes "organic" weed ;))

Do they swallow??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 17:11:44 (ZULU)

A guy who spoke to one of the mucky-mucks from Oehler at the ShotShow told me that they are seriously considering re-introducing the 35P with updated electronics for a PC interface. Those really interested should e-mail Oehler and do a little prodding.

The CED M2, which is the Millenium with improvements to overcome the low light problems that some of them had is presently backordered. They should be readily available in about two months, maybe less.

Overall, I still like my 35P and recently bought a spare sensor and skyscreen kit from them - just in case.

ALAN
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 17:15:16 (ZULU)

Don't go all absolute on Doc's, I know a few good ones. One volunteered to go to Iraq with me and put his mega mil per year practice on hold along with his family to do so. The guy was out running the perimeter of the FOB every day in flak and helmet.

Absolutes are iffy things. I've coached more than a few Doc's kids in junior smallbore. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 18:02:12 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Alan said you were looking for weight of his barrel..I did some maths, and reckon the barrel will weigh just about 2.25kg, which is 5lb, about spot on..His wasn't fluted, mind.

Doug S,

<<I'm not calling you Eurotrash Avi, I'm just saying.

Well, I hope not Dougie, cuz Avi ain't Euro...Check your map..

later

JR
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 18:16:33 (ZULU)

No shit

doug sickels
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 18:46:59 (ZULU)

hay

i dont know moch abute your docs but we do not heve that choice.

here today was independence day end we hede a hero doc form france how maid aliyya to israel.

served as a volunteer in the last war in libanon and saved many lifes of young soldiers .

he was given the honor to light one of the menura candles in the

central israely ceremony .

avi

avi
haifa, israel, is - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 20:41:54 (ZULU)

Earth Cookie?

How odd. I rather thought geophagy had gone out of fashion...

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territory of Mexico, Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 21:11:25 (ZULU)

Docs:

I'm lucky. My GP knows I'm involved the shooting sports and has no issues one way or the other. I have him sign me up for lead levels testing on occasion. My opthomologist also knows, and mentions that he's involved in martial arts. My optician (same office) told me about helping a rifle shooter to create a prescription (using his rifle) that allowed him to precisely focus on his front iron sight and position the centre of his glasses when he had a good cheek-weld.

What makes this surprising is this is in Canada! Halifax is a good-sized city, but residents of this province are bit closer to nature that in the really big centres (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal etc).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 22:17:30 (ZULU)

"Sounds like a left over hippy babe from the 60's without a bra,..."

Yeah, that's the type.... except a LOT younger, and much cuter.... squirrel-kissing, duck-squeezing, tree-hugging, penguin-spanking, hippy chicks.

Duman
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 22:51:30 (ZULU)

Just to set the record straight. The Euro Trash remark was in no way meant for Avi. I was referring to the mentality throughout Europe to sign up for more and more laws and restrictions. We are not Europe but are quickly going down that road. We have enough gun laws already and I'm sick of politicians always trying to take our rights away.

It's true the shooter at VT should not have been sold a gun, a mental case that slipped through the cracks. Shit like this will happen and continue to happen. He could have just as easily obtained a gun illegally. In Britan you can't even buy a knife anymore. Lets stop with the new laws.

I'm done with this, thank you and goodnight.

By the way Avi, our doctors here are for the most part worthless hacks that can't think for themselves and are in existence just to pump you full of the latest drug that the Pharmaceutical companies are pushing.

Unless you have a broken arm or the like you can't trust most of them for a correct diagnosis.

doug sickels
Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 23:45:11 (ZULU)

Mark Taylor: "Earth Cookie" is all yours.

Ken M: No disrespect to any particular MD. My cardiologist is an good guy. Some docs aren't. Same as with plumbers.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 00:49:37 (ZULU)

CDC-

Thank you for your thoughts I read all of them carefully. That's what I had in mind when I asked for the advice. One thing that caught me was resting the face on the stock. I don't do that. My face makes light contact along the side of the jawbone and my neck muscles are still sore the next morning after a match from holding my eight pound ball upright. I will try that but it seems like it would be very uncomfortable. As though what I'm doing now isn't LOL.

I make it a point to read every word of every post I ever see by Rick and have picked up alot from that guy. I wish he'd post more often or just write a book.

Your comparison of doctors and plumbers was right on. My cousin is an anesthesiologist and he said it the same way but used auto mechanics instead. In every town some mechanics are ok, a few are very good and very honest, and a few should not be allowed to work.

Lindy- Thanks for the glove idea. I've tried the padded shooting glove and it worked well but it doesn't really fit with the type of shooting I'm doing now. I'll try your idea this weekend at the So Cal match.

Thanks guys,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 03:09:04 (ZULU)

Wasn't there a mention of a RIFFLE RAFFLE a few days back...?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 03:52:51 (ZULU)

If anybody has any comments on those two long shooting posts, please post them. You guys know a lot about this stuff.

MarkS: If you get the comb height right, it isn't uncomfortable at all. A cheek-eez pad helps. There are other tricks to get the comb height the way you want it. We can get into that if you want.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 04:35:17 (ZULU)

That's ok I have an adjustable cheekpiece on the one I'm shooting right now. I'll just crank it up some.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 05:20:32 (ZULU)

Got a question. Does anyone know of a set of rings that attach to your scope and have a picitany rail on top allowing you to attach another device to the top of your scope? I need a way to mount an EOTech on top of my 4X10X50 on my long barrel AR upper.

Also, to all of you that remember me, that I havent seen in 5 or 6 years, hows it going.

Last but not least I have to ask whats the better rifle, Winchester or Remington? HA! I had to ask it, cause it's been a while since I have seen this arguement.

Whats up Pablito? What's the latest greatest recipe for cat.

Sarge call in some Arte and hunker down in the spider hole.

Anyone heard from Gouch lately?

Like I say it's been 5 or 6 years since I've been here. Nice to see the site has survived and is even stronger than when I left. Seems like the posters are smarter too. Maybe the years of experience have benifited us all.

Jeff Cooper
Memphis, TN, - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 05:38:40 (ZULU)

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,133272,00.html?ESRC=army.nl

XM110 rifle deployed.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 07:35:03 (ZULU)

Again, I'm not lecturing anyone here. I've just been meaning to write this out for a while. This seems like a good place to get good editorial opinion. Very little of this is mine. Most was picked up from books, trainers, magazines and here. Rick would recognize his words in some of it. 'yote bait too. He may be FOS on 1911s, but he's certainly bloodied his truckbed honorably.

Most of this sounds categorical and absolute. It isn't. It is written this way to save time. Disagreement or comment is welcome.

The first post said, "Natural point of aim coincident with desired point of impact."

It is important that the shooter not use his right hand to cheat the crosshairs onto the point of aim. One reason is that hand tension introduces oscillation. Another very important reason is that, between the time the sear breaks and the time the bullet leaves the barrel, the recoil moves the barrel toward the natural point of aim. If your natural point of aim and your actual point of aim are the same, no error is introduced.

The shooter checks NPA is by closing his eyes, relaxing then opening them. If the crosshairs are still on the desired point of aim, IF THE RIFLE ISN'T CANTED, and if the shooter has done his dry-firing homework, the NPA should be good. The part dry-firing plays will be addressed later.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 12:01:53 (ZULU)

Alan,

Got my M40 put back togeather again and took it to the range last night to get it sighted in. I wasn't going to shoot groups because I had a quartering 12 to 15mph wind but after shooting the first 3 shots they were all in a neat little figure 8 cluster I decided to keep shooing before I made any scope adjustments. It shot a .580 group with a clean bore rifle.

I tried one more load and it went into a .607 so I was happy with that!!! I didn't shoot any more after that because the wind was picking up enough to start moving the pickup around. (I was shooting off the hood of my PU.)

I don't know why it started shooting better. If it was from a good cleaning or its just getting broke in now or whatever. I did find the magazine was binding when it was put togeather. Its an ADL mag cut down to fit a BDL so that may have been causing me a problem too. Anyway its coming around now and I am happy with it. Send me your address and I will shoot you some pictures. I can't send anything email, my computer will strip all attatchments at work. Thanks!!

Pat
Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 13:31:39 (ZULU)

I've got a Mk4 M3 10X Luppy and the turrets are becoming really stiff. I really, really don't want to send it to Leupold. Removing the cam doesn't exactly make me all warm and fuzzy either. Is there a remedy for this w/o boxing it up?

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 13:50:06 (ZULU)

Boring legal custody shit.

I've gotten a few inquiries from some of the bumz here on the custody case... and I haven't said much in the last few months.

Well... I'm still learning how to play in the legal sandbox. Take my word for it - don't go there unless you absolutely must. I'll never be able to go for jury duty again.

The last few hearings (since January) have been about money.

See... when you go to court about custody, the court requires the kidlet to have an attorney and a guardian - around here, they get $300 to $400 an HOUR(???).

These fees are split by both of the parents - in the first case, the total for both was over $55,000. I paid some of my half, but when I realized it was fixed, I stopped paying them. I told them that I was on to their deals, and they could swim for the money - they both stopped billing me (an admission of guilt).

This time around... same thing. The bills for the guardian and child's attorney are around $35,000 so far, and growing (the child's current attorney billed $4,950 for taking the boy to two appoints that were one hour away from my "Ex"s house!!!). Yeah, I know... how do you get a job like that?? Mario Andretti doesn't charge that much to drive, and Cher's stretch limo would be cheaper... if Cher was driving it!!

So anyway... the bills are racking up and I haven't got a dime left from the first trial, and I tell these two folks up front that I haven't got it. They say that the judge can order me to pay it, and send me to jail if I don't.

I tell them that I found a law down in the dusty bowels of the law library, that says if I don't have the money, the court has to pay my fees. They (both lawyers) say they never heard of that law, and anyway, the court has no money.

So I filed a motion for what's called a "Waiver of Fees", and cited the law in my motion.

The Ex's lawyer immediately filed an objection, saying that the law I cited doesn't apply, the dog ate her law books, etc.

The first hearing, the judge reads my motion, and the law I quoted... and looks it up in the online law library... and he smiles ;)

Then he asks who filed first. So the Ex's lawyer blurps out "Mr. 'lito filed first, your honor. I say, "Your honor, the defendants attorney is lying. I was holding her motion that I "never see or speak to my son again", in my hand when I was in the law library writing my motion. So she does a 180, and says that, well that's true, she filed first, but mine was date stamped first... the judge doesn't buy it.

He reads her motion and says it's a "VERY Draconian motion". Then he says, "He has no money, you started this, why should he have to pay for it?"... and he says for both of us to come back in a month with fresh financial affidavits. We go back in a month (different judge), and she doesn't have her financials, and her lawyer whines to the judge that the last judge was overly broad in his interpretation of the law that I cited.

This judge reads the files, and says, "I'm inclined to take the same broad interpretation... be back on May 8th with all of the required documents".

So the Ex's lawyer is in deep doo-doo, cuz if she looses this round (and it looks like she will), the court doesn't pay my legal bills... my Ex has to pay them. My ex gets hit with an extra $30,000 that would be my share of the child's legal bills :)))))

Par duex.

You'd be surprised at how hard it is to get someone arrested for perjury, witness tampering, evidence tampering, and conspiracy to fix a trial... it sure ain't like on TV.

Most agencies don't have jurisdiction, and the one that does (the State Police) is used to handling cases like smuggling tax free cigarettes from North Carolina.

I spent 2.5 hours with a Sgt last Friday, and at the end of it he still didn't understand what I was talking about.

Anyway... the Ex's lawyer has found out that I'm pursuing badd stuff against her for fixin' the first trial, and she has issued a subpoena for copies of all of my "relevant" stuff (but her wording is sloppy)... including the stuff that I have sent to the forensic psychologist that is doing a work-up on the three of us now.

She's scared and want's to know what I have, and I've been trying to figure a way around it, cuz I don't want her to know what I have and how it fits together. And I don't want her to know what poo-poo I have sent to the forensic psychologist that shows my Ex to be a NutBurger (with cheese ;).

It came to me last night. I will give her three copies of every document I have, including all school records going back to the 3rd grade(7 years worth), all the doctor files, and tons of other stuff including worthless e-mails - maybe 2,000+ pages... all copied on the "lightest" setting of the copier. Then I will mix it all up and scramble it like shuffled cards, so none of it makes any sense, and 20 page files are broken up, all through the 2,000 pages.

Then I will give her the whole bunch in a box, and say "It's in there".

It'll take her 30 to 50 or more hours just to sort it out and put it together (at $400 an hour)... and she won't know what is relevant and what is being used for what part of my case.

What I have learned is that it is all about "...what the meaning of is, IS".

It is how things are worded, and if they make a mistake in wording a motion or document, you can take advantage of that wording... you can skirt around it, do most anything you want, and the problem falls back on them for the wording... and as a "Pro-Se" party (representing myself), I get slack in this because I don't know what I'm doing ;)))))

I add this bit of devious behavior for the two other SC guys out there that are fighting custody battles, plus the untold lurkers that are (or will be) dealing with custody at some point.

You want my 4 leaf clovers, here's a box of clover - you didn't say you wanted ONLY clovers that had 4 leaves, and DIDN'T SAY you didn't want any other kinds of clovers"...

... it's also known as "Hide in plain sight".

Anyway... the case is going surprisingly well, considering that I don't know shit about law - my Ex has already spent $50,000+ on this trial (and more than that last time), and it's cost me about $200 (not counting gas to drive to the court)... so she is going to be real financially hurt on this.

And... to the conspiracy stuff. I have been digging in the court files and found another case that involves my Ex's lawyer and my son's first attorney... and guess what - the two bastards did the same thing to this guy.

I met with him last night and told him what I have and he gave me transcripts and files (and he has much more) and in the transcript, there is documented testimony of my son's attorney tampering with a witness during a deposition - in concert with my Ex's lawyer.

So that's what's going on as of now.

They say it will be over In July, maybe August.

Life do get interesting, do'ent it?

Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of lawyers...

... da' 'lito doo ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 14:51:15 (ZULU)

Pat -

Sounds like a combination of break-in, a good cleaning, and getting some clearance around the magazine box. They've all probably contributed to its improved performance - hard to say which has done the most;) I'm glad to hear that it's coming around for you. My M40/Shilen combo has been doing about the same - in the high .5's to mid .6's with the standard 175SMK/Varget load, but it seems to prefer the 168SMK/42.5 H4895 load just a tad better with steady low to mid .5 groups. Or maybe it's just circumstantial? That's certainly a possibility!

Address is on the way to your e-mail.

CDC -

Your points on the natural point of aim are well taken. The hardest part is maintaining a natural point of aim in some unatural positions ;)))

But seriously, I think this discussion is great. Keep it up, point by point.

ALAN
Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 15:04:55 (ZULU)

Hey Guys Lito has not asked for it but here is a thought. Paul has been on here for over a decade helping everyone. From working with scope companies to ammo to just telling guys how to shoot. He has never asked for anything and is not asking now, but anyone who has been where he is can see help could be used.

I suggest we start a collection to help him with the legal bills. I pledge 100.00 to help.

Paul please accept this and tell me where to send the money. Not to be repaid because I figure you have helped me far more than 100.00 worth and I owe you this.

I hope others follow suit.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 15:16:49 (ZULU)

Mike/Undude,

You can count me in for $100.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 16:38:05 (ZULU)

'Lito, yew RAWK, Dude! Remind me to never, ever, get you mad at me.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 16:38:26 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Geophagy still shows up in the medical literature occasionally;

young, pregnant, southern women eating river-bank clay. Early spec-

ulation of mineral deficiency disproven. In 1985 a biochemist named

David Dolphin (real name) speculated that 'vampirism' was a symptom

of a genetic blood disorder we now call porphyria. Speculation also

disproven. Moonbats, however, do run the country.

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 16:57:59 (ZULU)

UnDude and Doc.

Send the money to the local gun store so I can get my Rem 700 CDL Ltd. .17 Fireball out of jail ;))))

Seriously, guys. I am really touched by your generosity, but I can't take it.

I was talking to Bravo this past weekend (you wanna know where all my cell minutes go?? ;), and 'splained to him that I have deliberatly keep my income down (I'm workin 1/2 a day a week) so the court will hit her with the fees when they hear my motion for waiver of fees.

I'm gonna be alright on this one, really.

When it's over, I'll get back to real life (is there such a thing anymore).

That's when it gets sweet - cuz I have a law suit against my first bimbo lawyer. Really, guys, I'mm gonna make it OK.

Someone fucks with my rat, the better crawl in a hole and pull it in after them, cuz a broken beer bottle is gonna follow.

Mang... I LOVE this Bar!!

'lito

CatShooter
not t home 'puter :((, - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 19:18:33 (ZULU)

Just finished catching up on reading posts back through and had to comment on something. Prozac and ritlin are two completely different drugs. Prozac is an SSRI and is prescribed for anxiety and depression. Ritlin is an amphedamine and is over proscribed in my opinion for ADD/ADHA. Ritlin being an amphedamine can cause aggression in some people along with a lot of other undesirable symptoms such as perinoid schizophrenia. Example: Adolph Hitler thought all the jews and others were aout to get him. He was on the biggest of all amphedamines, methamphedamine. Prozac being prescribed for people who are depressed and/or have anxiety may not be causing the symptoms such as homicidal/sucidal tendancies. These people who are already depressed probably already have these tendancies and are just not telling thier doctors about them because depression/anxiety alone will not get you thrown in the nut house. It will just get you a script for an SSRI. Admitting to homicidal/sucidal tendancies however will most definately get you a firts class ticket to the loony bin. I think in the state of Tennessee it is even in the state health codes that doctors who are told by thier patients that they are havein these feelings are required to hospitalize them for observation and medication adjustments.

That being said, the shooter is guilty no manner how crazy he is and ought to be put in front of the firing squad of about 10 men, with no mask, who pull the trigger on blanks one at a time untill someone with a loaded bullet finally does the job. That way he knows what it is like to be terrorized while waiting to die.

Guess this is enough on this subject before someone accuses me of having homicidal tendancies and directs me to a weeks vacation at the funny farm.

Next subject: Has anyone tried the H&K AR15/M16 mags? They are pricey but they are the S**t. No tipping follower. I tried to make mine misfeed or tip down and couldn't get them to do it. If you don't have them yet you probably ought to get them now before you can't.

Last, Anyone got any opinion on subsonic bullets. I'm thinking a heavier bullet with a higher BC will carry better "not drop" as much as a lighter bullet with a lower BC traveling at the same speed. Someone give me some feed back if they know anything on the subject cause I have a friend begging me to load some .223 for him. I already know, and told him, that they wont cycle in his AR but he wants them anyway.

Jeff Cooper
Memphis, TN, - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 20:26:19 (ZULU)

Lito:

You're not the first to use the "hide the toothpick in the forest" technique, but that doesn't invalidate the beauty of it.

Saw it in a movie too.

Discovery process can be a beast - for the other side :-)

Rod Regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 22:52:09 (ZULU)

Jeff, was issued a bunch of HK mags for my little vacation to Iraq, I was underwhelmed. New GI mags with Magpul followers work as well, are lighter, fit in GI pouches and don't rust.

On that note, Bravo, drop me an E-mail, I'll get you that mag and you can try it yourself and make your own decisions. I got back from TAD a week ago.

Yeah, high BC subsonics are slightly flatter, doesn't really matter anything at 1050fps is gonna be a spitball. Heavy bullets carry more energy, but again, doesn't really matter, all rifle bullets plow through plenty of tissue without doing nothing dramatic at 1050fps too. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 23:42:24 (ZULU)

Jeff,

I've stayed away from the HK magazines for three reasons. At first it was the fact that I absolutely hate Heckler & Koch. Then I saw the price, it made me hate HK even more, but I thought these things better be really something for that much $!!! After Sinister reported that they (the AMTU) were having nothing but trouble with them my mind was made up. Screw HK!

Besides that, I never have had trouble with the NIW USGI magazines that I've bought, and they're even slicker with the Magpul follower. Too many necessary thimgs to buy before I'd waste my money on an HK magazine.

Just my .02 and worth everything you've paid for it ;)

ALAN
Wednesday, April 25, 2007, at 23:52:46 (ZULU)

Hello Gents:

I am a shooter on a bit of a shoe string budget.

What I am looking for is some commentary on Millet TRS-1

rifle scopes either good, bad, ugly or indifferent.

The glass in question is to be mounted on a Fed Ord M1A using

an ARMS mount and rings. The stock I was planning on using was

a surplus fiber glass with a homemade cheek rest made from a

plastic cutting board.

Any suggestions welcome.

Jerry
Rudy, AR, US - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 02:24:54 (ZULU)

'lito san...

Ya da man! If I can be of any help, now or later, holler.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 03:16:43 (ZULU)

'Lito has helped me enormously. Both in private emails and just regular posts so count me in too.

Don't be too proud to take it man it would make many such as myself happy for the opportunity to return a favor.

Just saw an ad in the American Rifleman for the new Taurus 1911. Have any of you guys played with one yet?

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 03:22:25 (ZULU)

Hey Yotie...

I know your lurkin' out there.

My 'puter got broke a few months ago, and I lost all my e-mail addresses.

Hit me with an e-mail, would'ja??

rod...

>" Lito:

You're not the first to use the "hide the toothpick in the forest" technique, but that doesn't invalidate the beauty of it. Saw it in a movie too."<

What movie did you saw it in??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 03:23:23 (ZULU)

The next step is, "Crosshairs oscillating between 6:00 and 12:00, with 6:00 being point of aim."

As you breathe, the crosshairs oscillate between 6:00 and 12:00. When your breathing pauses, the oscillations slow dramatically for a couple of seconds until most of the remaining oscillations are caused by the beating of your heart. The crosshairs still move between 6:00 and 12:00 but they move much less and they move very regularly for, oh, 6 to 12 seconds more or less. At very near 6:00 the crosshairs pause. That's where you want your point of aim. After that interval, the tension in your muscles and the body's desire to breathe cause an increase in the amplitude of the oscillations.

So there's your NPA and the interval within which you should press your trigger.

CDC'
Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 04:40:36 (ZULU)

Jerry, yer my kinda man. Cheap. I recently bought one of Millett's 4-16 x 50 side focus Tactical Rifle Scopes (TRS)with the illuminated reticle. On the whole, I was surprised at the quality of the image, the mildots were the right size, and the 16 power helped me in my mil ranging becdause th image was larger and easier to estimate. One GLARING problem, though. The elevation adjustment was .75 of what's printed on the turret, and the knobs are only 9 moa per complete turn. If yer gonna shoot past 500 yards, it's going to get confusing. If you dial up 10 moa, it's only going to come up 7.5 moa. At least, that's what mine did. And, good luck finding anything on Millett's web page for warranty help. I've emailed them, twice, and haven't heard squat from anyone. For less money, you can get a Bushnell 3200 Elite, mildot, and it's just the cat's meow for the money. Ask Sarge...I dialled in the 1k dope, and the target was clear enough that I got first round hits at a thousand. Next scope I'm gonna try, if the possible ex-Mrs. doesn't rape me for too much, is a SuperSniper. Millet, nah.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonin, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 05:25:43 (ZULU)

Ken and Alan: where are you getting your new USGI issue mags with MagPul followers? All I have had before are the ones with green or gray followers and they all had problems allowing the bullets to tip down and hit the front side of the magazine and then cause a hell of a jam. I've heard the magpull follower helps, but I've had no problems out of my H&K's except they are heavier and a little longer.

On the subsonic bullets, that's what I figured. I think I'll try to talk him into getting another rig for a larger caliber gun. .30 or .338 with Nosler ballistic tips. He's got guns and Money comming out the wazoo and wants to spend it. If we go up to a larger caliber we can get even more weight and probably better BC's also. Whatever he does, it's for a 100 yd night time coyote gun. They are killing his dogs, rabbits and quail, not to mention scareing off the local deer heard. I prefer to use my .300 RUM and sit on an open 1200 acre field and take them out form a long distance. Usually 600 to 900 yards. They don't know what is hiting them. They just know thier friends are dropping dead and hearing a big boom a few seconds later. I once got 4 this last winter with 3 shots. 2 with the first shot, one with each sucsesive shot, the 4th one was at a full run. They had finally figured out where it was comming from. The 5th, and last one left, topped a hill as I was about to pull the trigger on him. My hunting parterner came over and asked why I shot three deer cause he knows I don't miss. I told him it was coyotes and he liked to died when he saw there were 4 scattered between 680 and 740 yards from where I was laying. Sniping isn't just for the LE and Military guys. Some of us use it to put meat on the table not just punch holes in paper. You can't eat paper and it doesn't attack you either. Long range hunting puts a reality and reward to it. Sure deer don't shoot back at you but if you are good neither does the HVT you are after, nor do his men. One shot one kill, no triangulation, and no one will know where to shot anyway. Not making light of you guys in the sand box. I tried to join, they said I was too old. Guess I'll go over as private contractor this winter after cropdusting season is over. Not quite the same, but the money is a lot better, and you are still doing something to support your country.

Jeff Cooper
Elvis, Tennesee, - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 05:43:17 (ZULU)

Anyone here try the Falcon Merlin scope from snipercentral.com?

Looks to be about the same as the SS from SWFA but a bit less expensive (not that the SS is pricey).

http://www.snipercentral.com/falcon.htm

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 08:30:12 (ZULU)

"Mentally isolate crosshair/POA picture and pad of right index fingertip. Feel the fingertip on the trigger."

You see/visualize the exact sight picture that presses the trigger. Feel the right finger tip very lightly touching the trigger.

"Release as much air as wants to go."

Nothing to add.

"Desired sight picture causes second joint in right index finger..."

Repeat; The sight picture presses the trigger. While dry firing every snap like your life depends on it (Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect.) you develop a neural pathway between the correct sight picture and the finger tip. You develop a conditioned response to the right sight picture. When you see what you want to see, your finger moves automatically. 'yote Bait called it "The Force". Use the conditioned response. For the important shots the temptation is to make a conscious effort. Conscious effort inhibits conditioned response. That is called "choking". If your dry firing was done correctly, you can trust your "Sight picture presses trigger" reflex.

"... to HINGE gently but decisively to push the button STRAIGHT BACK."

As mentioned earlier, the three fingers on the right hand that let the shoulder muscles pull the rifle gently into the shoulder are curled but don't grip. When pressing the trigger, the trigger finger bends ONLY at the second knuckle from the tip. If you hold your right hand in the described position and simulate pressing the trigger you will see that the pad of the fingertip comes back with less lateral motion than if you curl the trigger finger.

CDC'
Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 11:41:01 (ZULU)

Last one:

"Consciously see the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin."

The interval between pressing the trigger and the fall of the firing pin is vital and is part of your eye/trigger/follow through conditioned response. While dry firing, practice seeing the correct sight picture through the fall of the firing pin. If the crosshairs move, either your NPA or your trigger press was wrong.

Flinching will screw this up. The Rooskie Olympic Shooting Team did a lot of research on this problem and found an effective way to manage it.

CDC'
Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 12:04:21 (ZULU)

Sharon...

>"'lito san...

Ya da man! If I can be of any help, now or later, holler.

Sharon"<

Well... it won't help with the court, but a new picture of you in your spring outfit with matching purse and pumps, with the two tone fishnet stockings would do miracles for my circulation ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 17:03:01 (ZULU)

Ok,, any of you guys with any 223AI's out there? I was thinking about switching to this in my Savage 223. You can gain 140 fps but in the grand picture I really don't think that will matter. But what do you all think? Wind drift at 1K with this round isn't that much diffrent than the 223 Rem. Is there a good reason I should switch to it?

This project will begin as soon as I don't get any more unexpected bills. Like the 200 vet bill I just had. I saw swelling in my colt stiffle and he was limping. I didn't think it was anything serious but took the colt in anyway. Doc said it looked like just swelling from trama. There was a small scratch on the stifle. Ran a bunch of tests to be sure. But I guess if it had been something serious the sooner caught the better.

Lito, Don't try talking to the cops (I R one I know) they don't normally get this type of case. They loose intrest when you take your thrid gasp of air. What you need to do is contact the District Attorny's office and talk to some one there. If it is a big office like we have here, there will be one shmoe that deals with this type of case. He won't mind hammering a laywer because it will make him look good and make the news. Your just plain Evil. And I like it.... Haha.

Bolt, Another weekend coming up. How you doing?

Going shooting with Chuck this weekend that should be a hoot.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 17:29:13 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve...

I tried that.

I went to the Chief's States Attorney's office last spring, and he said that they don't take "Walk in cases". That it would have to be referred by some other agency. I thought of taking to the judge, but was told that they could NOT see it because I had a case in front of them.

The State Police guy I spoke to was really a nice guy but this stuff is so far over his head he was just dazed.

But the good part is that I have recently heard that my case is being transfered to another court (15 miles away from the house, instead of 80 miles away)... that specializes in this stuff alone.

So when that happens, I "think" I can send my evidence to the judges that I have been dealing with, and they will fully understand it all in tiny detail, and I won't have to go over and over the basic definitions of who the players are over and over and over again. And they actually know who the players are (by name).

And they will be pissed - because these two judges are good guys.

So that's my plan for now (it can be changed on a moment's notice ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 18:50:05 (ZULU)

Jeff, you get GI mags from wherever and you call up Magpul(or the seller of your choice) and you get X amount of followers and assemble yourself. I've got 25mm ammo cans full of USGI mags, and about 40'ish have the MP followers. The rest have GI green and work damned well enough for shooting P dogs and other scenarios where I won't die if there's a stoppage. Maybe I'm just blessed, but I never had a problem with the M16A4 rifle I used in Iraq. Might have something to do with being new and maintained by me. A 20 year old POS A2 or 5-8 YO M4 is just plain worn out and will be FUBAR whatever you use. Mostly destroyed by (over)cleaning by determined, well-meaning but clueless GI's or Marines. Prompted by egomaniac, petty tyrant, asshole armorers. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 21:11:53 (ZULU)

Lito:

Still trying to remember the movie or TV program. (must have CRS)

Probably something based on a John Gresham book or an episode of Law and Order, but not sure.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 21:31:55 (ZULU)

Rod Reiger,

I think it was "The Firm". At one point I think it was mentioned they were going to bury the opposition with 'discovery'. There was also a L&O where the prosecution was buried for days, trying to find a scrap of relevant information in a pile-o-boxes of documents.

Duman
Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 23:43:46 (ZULU)

Duman...

>"I think it was "The Firm". At one point I think it was mentioned they were going to bury the opposition with 'discovery'. "<

Ha... I don't remember that, but that's what I'm going to do. At $400 an hour, my Ex will go broke discovering that her son went to the 4th through 9th grade ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 01:36:58 (ZULU)

Ken

Thanks, didn't know if you bought the hole mags together of like you said just replaced the followers. Thought maybe you had a good source on low price mags. My M4A3 is only a couple weeks old. I sold my last one 6 years ageo along with all the mags. Funny but I don't remember having any problems with the mags back then.

I do take it with me when I go to pick up bond jumpers. Hopefully I won't have to use it for that, but you never know. It stays in the car that blocks the driveway anyway and the Kimber .45 goes to the door with me. Only had to use it once after a POS shot me in the arm with a .380. Some folks just don't like to go back to jail when they miss thier court date. Strangely enough, till the A**hole shot me he was only facing 2nd offense DUI cahrges and a failure to appear. He was cracked out at the time though.

Lito,

Guess you don't remember me. It's been a while "6 years".

Jeff Cooper
Tennessee, - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 01:42:03 (ZULU)

Funny this came from the magpul website.

"Out of the box the HK SA80A2 magazine probably the most reliable M16 compatible magazine made and has a mean time to failure rate twice that of a US GI mag (unless it gets rusty but that is another story). Our aim with the Magpul follower was to achieve 80% of that reliability increase over a USGI mag with a simple retrofit of the follower."

I guess 80% of the HK mag reliability is still better than the stangard USGI especially at $2.20 each. HK's are $48.00

Jeff Cooper
Memphis, Volunteer State, Southern United States of America - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 02:06:58 (ZULU)

'lito san...

>>>Well... it won't help with the court, but a new picture of you in your spring outfit with matching purse and pumps, with the two tone fishnet stockings would do miracles for my circulation ;)))<<<

Be still my heart...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 04:01:57 (ZULU)

Jeff Cooper...

>"Lito,

Guess you don't remember me. It's been a while "6 years". "<

Nope... I searched my Rum soaked brains and nothing comes up.

Of course the last three of going to do-it-your-self law scruel leaves a lot of fog on the brains.

Did we have a pie fight?? :)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 04:40:59 (ZULU)

'Lito

Na, no pie fights. You were just getting started if I remember correctly. Bolt, Sarge, and Gouch were the most prominent posters. I was shooting a .300 win mag at the time if I remember correctly you were curious about my loads. I remember Gouch was headed off to sniper school, and promoting the heck out of the mildot master. Course I could be wrong and it may have been more than 6 years and may have not been you asking about loads. They had just held the first competition.

Anyway, good luck with the lawyer deal. I handled both of mine. the second just a few years ago. Lots of fun. NOT!

Now I'm shooting a custom Renington in .300 Remington Ultra Mag. Shoots a LOT flatter. Great for headshots on deer out to 650 with 4 inch groups. Body shots even further. Mildot master hell? Range finder and dial it in! Got the drop dope to 1000 taped to the stock.

Jeff "Not the Col." Cooper
Memfro, TN, - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 05:37:09 (ZULU)

I just edited my last couple of posts on pulling the trigger.

Comments?

CDC'
Friday, April 27, 2007, at 10:02:53 (ZULU)

Jeff (Not the Col.)...

Was not me - I've been here about 10 or 11 years. Three or four years before Gooch, and his class.

You must have me confusealated with someone else ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 13:23:22 (ZULU)

Flying out for J'ville, NC in the morning. Gonna spend a few days with family and then the rest of the week with the 65-70 3rd Force Recon Reunion. If anybody is in J'ville, we will all be at the Scarlet and Gold club next Friday night (4 May). It could get drunk out that night.

Semper Fi,

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 15:08:59 (ZULU)

CDC -

I think that's as good a way of putting it into printed words as I've seen. Wasn't it Gooch who summarized the entire concept as being in the "bubble"?

What did the Russians come up with as to flinching? Got a link?

Thanks for your efforts!

ALAN
Friday, April 27, 2007, at 15:44:21 (ZULU)

Lito, oh well, have you heard from him lately, and good luck with the crumb snatcher custody. The local university's law library was very helpfull for me. And every now and then there were some cute up and comming lady attorneys to look at. I raised my daughter till she turned 18 and graduated HS. Then she moved in with her mother for a week and got permission from her to move in with her boyfriend. She didn't ask me my opinion. She knew the awnser. Now she's 19 with a baby and not attending college. I saved for years to be able to put her through any school of her choice. Not to mention she had scholarships to all that she had applied for. How can anyone with all A's and 3 B's through her whole high school years be so DUMB? Oh well got a 14 year old stepdaughter as of last saturday maybe she will use the college money, but I don't think she's headed that way from the way she's acting right now. She just wants to hang out with thugs and gangsters. She's probably going to end up as a dancer or coctail waitress. I'll be supprised if she does any better.

Everyone else, What's everyone shooting long range now days? What's popular? Anyone into the big guns from Barret? Have they put out that .416 or whatever it was on future weapons. I wouldn't mind having a bolt version shooting that cartridge if the ballistics are as they claimed. I havent gotten past the 300 Remmington Ultra Mag yet. But it does the trick on deer. Out to about 825 is as far as I've had the chance to take one so far. They keep entering the field to close to my stand.

Also, I'm looking for a 24" 6.8 SPC bull barrel for my AR. Anyone got any clues where I might find/ or have one made. I've alerady checked the usuall suspects. DPMS, RRA, WILSON. Anyone got any experience with the 6.8? The ballistics seem like they are around the same as .308 and .223. I'm just think the rifle would be a lot better off with a longer barrel than everyone is offering right now. You know, give it some time to burn some powder. I might actually take the AR deer hunting just to get my hunting buddies wondering if I had indeed lost it if I could just get that longer/ heavier barrel. I've already got a spare flat top upper with a shot out .223 barrel that needs something attached to it.

J Cooper
Memphrica, Tennessee, CSA - Friday, April 27, 2007, at 18:02:55 (ZULU)

Thanks CDC I appreciate the time you took on all of that. I read it all several times and dry fired for an hour with all of it going through my head.

Just got home from the job in San Francisco now I'm back out the door for LA to shoot tomorrow's match.

Crazy stories I'll tell later about the murders and bad dope deals going on in the alley right where my company offices are located south of the financial district. I saw some crazy stuff today. Last week a crack whore sat down, gave birth, stood up, walked away. Cops followed the blood trail a few blocks to find a hysterical and psychotic dope fiend bitch. Last night they found another crack whore dead, apparently tortured, 300 feet from the front door of our office. Life in the city I guess.

Things will get better soon though 'cuz Gavin Newsome just declared it a safe haven for all illegals HA!

Marc-out

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 00:46:27 (ZULU)

"What did the Russians come up with as to flinching?"

Well, to boil the ox into a bullion cube:

We'll define a flinch as any reaction to the trigger press that interferes with the shooter seeing the crosshairs on the point of aim through the fall of the firing pin. A flinch is a conditioned response that develops from an unconditioned reflex.

"Press->bang->blink and tighten up

becomes "press->blink and tighten up."

It is just like Pavlov's dog.

To decondition yourself you dryfire like your life depends on every shot then shoot a bunch with a wimpy rifle that feels like your real rifle.

"Freezing on the trigger" is a similar problem. That condition is caused by fear of a bad shot. We all know the feeling of putting nine straight in the same hole then freezing on the tenth shot because we don't want to screw up the string. We are making a conscious effort to get the last shot right. But conscious effort inhibits conditioned response. If, during dry firing, we have programmed in the firing sequence we like, we should let it work. The rational brain wants to take over. Ignore it. Go into the silence. Be interested in the firing sequence and let it happen like you have programmed it to happen.

Ommmm....

CDC'
Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 02:51:14 (ZULU)

Blatantly stolen from Ksccw.com:

HOW TO START EACH DAY WITH A POSITIVE OUTLOOK

1. Open a new file in your computer.

2. Name it "Hillary Rodham Clinton"

3. Send it to the trash.

4. Empty the trash.

5. Your PC will ask you, "Do you really want to get rid of "Hillary

Rodham Clinton?"

6. Firmly Click "Yes."

7. Feel better.

PS: Next week we'll do Nancy Pelosi

__________________

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 10:26:32 (ZULU)

Travis...

you gave me the first laugh of the day -thanks ;))))))

CDC...

Movie country...

Here's one fo' yo' shiftless no good self!

I have decided that it's time to give a real name to my favorite drink, the DDR&LJ

So before I do, I got'sta run it by you.

What (or who) is a Mogun-tani (Pronounced MO-gun TAH-nee)

I think I gotcha ;)

Back to legal poo-poo.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 12:20:19 (ZULU)

Pablo: Beats my pair of jacks.

CDC'
Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 15:26:38 (ZULU)

CDC...

Gary Cooper in "Return to Paradise", as Captain Morgan, who becomes stranded on an island in the pacific, and is called Mogun Tani by the locals. I haven't seen it re-run in over 25 years.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 15:50:49 (ZULU)

Jeff

"...Also, I'm looking for a 24" 6.8 SPC bull barrel for my AR...The ballistics seem like they are around the same as .308 and .223..."

That is a fairly large spread.

A 6.8 would be a better choice for a deer rifle than a .223, but not nearly as good as a .308. IMHO

Good luck

Jerry

Jerry
Annapolis, MD, USA - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 16:07:15 (ZULU)

DDR&LJ????? Gotta find time for debauchery, I kinda figure the LJ is lime juice. Wazzz DDR???

Avi & others- the guy at VT dropped into a black hole due to differing mental health (or lack thereof) definitions between the state and the feds. He shouldn't have been able to legally complete the purchase. They're taking steps to get all the fruit loops in a row real quick-or so the Governor says.

Some of this dates back to the early 1970's and the theory that almost all the folks then residing in mental hospitals could be mainstreamed in society through self-medication. Nice article in the opinion section of the Wall Street Jouranl on this last week.

Sometimes overwhelming desire for higher office can be salutory. I was really expecting the Gov to use the VT incident to climb on a soap-box.

Chronographs-I've been very happy with a PACT chrono. Get the bracket for the skyscreens. I've found that mounting the chrono on a horizontal 4X4 and using that to align the chrono and weapon the same (or nearly so) every time improves consistancy.

WR Moore
Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 16:37:42 (ZULU)

WR Moore...

DDR = Double Dark Rum... Four onces of Morgan's Dark spiced Rum + plus lime jooce to the taste.

Be sitting for the second one - it's a long way to the floor ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 18:55:47 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

A man never has to apologize for spending more time with his family, friends and loved ones. By God you have earned it!

Just don't be a stranger here! Looking beyond the occasional pissing contest and pie fights, we all have some very important things in common, brotherhood being one.

LITO! Keep on keepin' on!

Les
GA boy in CT, - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 19:15:35 (ZULU)

Click. Funny as hell.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 21:26:54 (ZULU)

Travis:

Baah!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 23:16:55 (ZULU)

Well, adding weight to the recoil buffer seems to have done the trick. I pulled the little plastic thingie out of the back of the buffer and took all the rubber bumper pads out from between the weights. Left just enough room to drop in 185 gr. round lead .45 muzzle loader ball. Still had a couple of rounds stick in the chamber, but when I took a look, they were both headstamped "PMJ" with a NATO stamp.....the LC brass handled it fine, as if the PMJ was just a RCH softer, and let the rim get yanked back. Otherwise, it turned out to be a good session, the DPMS AR10 turning in it's accustomed .75 moa or better groups. Best were 1.25" at 200, and 3.25" at 500 (with 2 called flyers) For a 16" gas gun, no bipod shooting off my elbows, I can live with that. Of course, Dirty Steve hadda trot out the GAP and shoot under 2" at 500. Shithead. See if I let him drive me all the way to the range and back again.

Now to clean rifle and have some cold beverages that taste of hops...

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, April 28, 2007, at 23:25:58 (ZULU)

Travis, That's just plain funny I do care who you are.

Chuck, Yeah for a 500 yard, 5 shot group it was ok. Ha Ha. You just forgot to mention you bought breakfast and the Combat Cokes for the ride back.

The Salvage 223 did very well too out at 500. Dang near the same size group. Well 2.75" for 5 shots. It was a good day to say the least. Guess I will stock witth 223 when I rebarrel it. Instead of going to the Ackley version. I will put on a Super Sniper 16 power scope as well. The yotes out here won't have a clue till it's way to late.

Last night I handled a Murder. Wish I knew what happened. Not two stories were the same. On guy we knew was I the apartment when things went bad. He told us a lie, that he wasn't even there. But yet he shows up cut up at a hospital 30 mins after the murder. He said he was robbed at a store on the way home. He finally said he was attacked in the apartment when he was trying to help his friend. He faked dead and the attackers left. Then he bolted for home and the hospital. Another guy was there claims he didn't know who saw in the apartment because he left to get smokes. Another witness was cleaning his storage area and saw the guy leave for smokes while the fight was going on. I guess all the dope in the apartment makes no one want to talk. Ha.... man that place was a bloody mess!

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2007, at 00:16:47 (ZULU)

Had a good shoot down south today. I scored a 560 and the second place guy had 460, third was 440 and I forget the rest. I think there were 17 shooters. Feels good to show up in a strange place and dominate :)

First shot was a cold bore UKD at about a 15 degree uphill angle. Figured everything out with my Mildot Master and drilled it. THANK YOU BRUCE ROBINSON.

Had a bitch of a time on the half hour wait on the rifle in the sun stage. Waited in position soaked in sweat while trying to hold on a 1" dot at one hundred yards. When the buzzer goes you get three seconds to shoot one shot for a total of five times. You never know when it's coming. He caught me twice trying to take a break and rest my face on my arm or moving to wipe the sweat off my brow. I just barely missed those two shots but got the other three. One guy got all pissed off and left during the stage. There was some moaning and groaning but nobody else really complained. I don't know how you professionals do that for such long periods of time.

Then a low crawl to a barricade with prone, kneeling and standing (at a low height but not low enough to kneel again which was kind of awkward) and you had to do it all from both strong and weak sides working your way from one side of the barricade, over the top, and down to the other side. Target was steel at just over 400 yards at a 25 degree uphill angle and time was three minutes from start of crawl. I pulled one and knew it instantly so got nine out of ten. Again, THANK YOU BRUCE ROBINSON!

Seven hundred miles round trip and I think total of 11 hours on the road with 4 hours of sleep the past three nights in a row. I won't be able to sleep tonight from smiling and chuckling I'm sure.

The match director was a guy named Bill E. He won the raffle a couple years ago for Bruce Robinson's Chandler rifle. I joked and asked him if it still had that little pistol barrel on it LOL.

I'm out now for a dinner and a movie date and it'll be a struggle to really pay attention to what she's saying LOL.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Sunday, April 29, 2007, at 02:36:19 (ZULU)

Jerry,

Thanks. I'm looking to rebarrel an extra upper that I already have. It will go with a complete RRA M4a3 that I also already have. I've got plenty of real dear guns. .243, 25WSSM, and 300 RUM. I just thought I'd ad that upper to the collection just incase. I didn't think you could add anything bigger than 6.8 SPC, like the .308, to the regular lower because of bullet length. If I can and don't know about it let me know, I'd reather got to the 308 for the terminal ballistics. Like I said, I'm really just looking to ad th the extra upper I have with a shot out barrel and didn't want another .223. I guess I'll have to go with DPMS's 20' regular countour barrel with plain gass block. It's just going to be more something to play with than anything, not my primary hunting rifle. Correct me If I am wrong about the .308 fitting my current lower.

Anyone else got any ideas about a barrel? Feel free to chime in.

How do you get a hold of heart and shilen now days?

Thanks,

Jeff Cooper

Jeff Cooper
Memphis, Tn, - Sunday, April 29, 2007, at 05:51:01 (ZULU)

Cooper,

Whilst comparing apples to oranges, have a look at an upper in the 6.5 Grendel and all those wonderful 6.5 bullets....

DDR&LJ,

With 'Lito's recipe, it's One, Two, Tree, Floor..hahah..the Mo'Lito cocktail...

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, April 29, 2007, at 10:43:06 (ZULU)

Legal poop...

I had an interesting phone conversati0on on Friday while I was waiting for the Rat.

I called the Chief State's Attorney's office. He's the guy that I contacted last year, and he said he doesn't take "walk-in" cases, and he told me to take it to the State Police.

I first asked him if the state has an "Obstruction of Justice" law (think Martha Stewart and "Scooter" Libby). He said no, the state tried to get one passed, but it was blocked in the house.

Then I told him my name and he said, I remember you... how's it going? I told him that I has spent 3 hours with the State Police a week before, and they didn't even understand what I was talking about.

So I asked him if there was a unit that investigated high level white collar crimes, like trial fixing, and he said, "Re-do your stuff and take it back to state police, and if he still doesn't understand it, tell him that the states chief prosecutor said to go ahead and refer the case to Mr. Xxxxx in Stamford, and if he has any problems with that, have him call me."

WOW... this guy is the top of the prosecuting food chain in the state, and this is the first door that has been greased for me in this whole damn thing...

... and he remembered me??

Ruggus Rattus and I just got back from Staples - 3 hours of straight copying. 1,800 pages are hiding about 40 pages of important documents... all scrambled up. Weighs about 21 POUNDS ;))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, April 29, 2007, at 20:20:03 (ZULU)

Lito, I hope you made extra copies of the good stuff. Like recipe for trout alomandine and similar stuff. Ha. That will learn them. Make sure you mail it so someone has to sign for it. That will take some one away from work for an errand.

Oh it kool take he remembered you. It means he was interested.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2007, at 20:46:42 (ZULU)

Cooper, Try here http://www.hartbarrels.com/

and here..... http://www.shilen.com/

Dirty Steve............

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, April 29, 2007, at 22:00:46 (ZULU)

'Lito- very good. Remember an election year is coming up. Also, there actually are some folks who don't like to see people get screwed and/or slimy ones get away with stuff.

wr moore
Sunday, April 29, 2007, at 23:09:36 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve...

>"Make sure you mail it so someone has to sign for it. That will take some one away from work for an errand."<

I'm delivering it in person on Tuesday morning ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 01:22:02 (ZULU)

Lito,

Sometimes going full auto and using the spray and pray method works. Sounds like you threw enough bulllets down range and finally hit upon a good Atty/Prosecuter.

Good Luck

Thanks JR may have to try that.

Dirty Steve, Got letters into both of those companies as of yesterday, along with about 10 others. Hopefully I'll hear something back this week. Worst comes to worst I'll go 20" Heavy from DPMS.

Anyone got any more 6.8 info, I'd love to have it.

Back to getting the cropduster ready so fly this week. C-yall later.

Jeff Cooper
Memphrica , TN, - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 07:02:49 (ZULU)

6.8 SPC???

Not something I know much about... but I have heard that the 6.8 SPC is bases on the old (very old) 30 Remington auto case because the head size workie with the M4 internals, (or somfin like that).

Anyone know why they chose the 6.8 (0.277" - aka 270) sized bullet, when there are few, if any, good 6.8 bullets, and tons of good 6.5 bullets??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 10:51:38 (ZULU)

Mark S: Did your 11:00 flyer problem clear up?

CDC'
Monday, April 30, 2007, at 13:29:45 (ZULU)

Marc, glad you had good shoot. I did not make the San Jose shoot. Instead some idiot truck driver decided to turn over his Gas Tanker and blow up Freeway, two blocks from TIS. Decided to check business out to see if damaged instead. Bay Area roads are screwed for next few months. We find out this guy has been truck drive for TenMonths and this is second truck he has turned over. Hopefully he will work at front door of Wal Mart soon and only drive a Big Wheel

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 15:11:20 (ZULU)

Speaking of the bridge accident....Anyone want to call that walking haggis, that pus-spewing tub of suet Rosie O'Donnel and ask her now if "fire melts steel"? That is, if you can get her to yank her head out of George Soros' ass.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 16:08:42 (ZULU)

'Lito,

<<<Anyone know why they chose the 6.8 (0.277" - aka 270) sized bullet, when there are few, if any, good 6.8 bullets, and tons of good 6.5 bullets??>>>

I dunno..Don't know a heck of a lot about them either..They are loading with on the light end of the spectrum with 90-115gr hornady's(they .380BC?, can't remember), and think 2600fps is about the limit..What they are saying is it's a better mankilling round at 300yds than the 5.56x45, as it carries more energy..

The 6.5 Grendel is based somewhat on the PPC or modified russian case, is a tad bit longer. You have the choice to load from 90-144's, most stick near the 123's(.547BC), which carries at 2600fps. Which will get you well past 300 yds accurately...Lapua is making brass.

If it were me, I probably would lean toward the Grendel, as you get the ballistics and the punch, as well as better reloading components. Why settle for a round that is 300 metres capable?

Cooper,

here's a site to check out, should give you a clue where to pick up barrels and magazines and stuff:

http://www.68spc.com/vendors.php

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 17:56:00 (ZULU)

I believe the 6.8 SPC was intended to fill the following niche...

-work with existing M16 weapon system to include magwell limits

-kill most effectively inside 300 yards (as in DEAD, RIGHT NOW!!!)_

-support similar individual load out and mag capacity to 5.56

I think the solution is a good one if you ONLY want a CQB weapon based on the M16 platform. The rounds apparently fragment well at lower velocities, support very short weapon platforms and will operate in specially designed mags up to ~25-28 rounds per mag.

I don't own one and have very little interest in acquiring one as the solution does not meet a need I feel I have.

medicjim
Monday, April 30, 2007, at 18:11:17 (ZULU)

What medicjim said!

As I understand it, the DoD asked Remington to help develop the 6.8SPC cartridge. Using the old .30 Remington case (shortened)in the M16 platform was not a brand new idea. Some of the guys at the AMTU played around with it, possibly ten years ago, with an idea towards developing an improved across-the-course round for use in their M16's in highpower competition.

As to the bullet diameter, this is how I heard it -

They were interested in throwing the heaviest bullet they could 300yds. downrange with a reasonably flat trajectory, but had to stay within certain parameters. The bullet could only have a rather short maximum length due to the COAL limitations of the M16 platform and the limited powder space available in the case. Computer modeling showed that they could make a 115 grain bullet of .277" diameter that would fit in the allowed space while leaving enough powder room so it could be driven about 2600fps MV from a short barrel. I understand that the military has been loading both 115 SMK's and 115 FMJ's and they've been doing a respectable job, but the performance of the 5.56 NATO round when loaded with the 77 SMK's and 75 Hornadys has been so effective that the 6.8 has been put on the back burner.

If I was interested in going to a larger bore on the M16/AR15 platform (and I'm not) I would probably choose the 6.5 Grendel over the 6.8 SPC just for the better bullet selection. The increased magazine capacity of the 6.8 would mean little for my purposes. The only thing that really bothers me about the Grendel is that it is a proprietary cartridge, with Alexander Arms holding the rights. I don't know how that will affect brass prices and availability. although it looks like Wolf is now mass marketing 6.5 Grendel ammunition.

I prefer to stay with the 5.56 in my AR15's and move up to the AR10 platform for a larger cartridge. I really like my .308 AR10(t), and have shot with some wicked performing AR10's in .243 and .260! I just don't think that there's enough advantage in trying to max out the cartridge size in the smaller platform to make it worthwhile. But that's just my .02

ALAN
Monday, April 30, 2007, at 21:24:28 (ZULU)

P. Hayden -

That one's easy :)

Take out the pressure point and shoot the rifle. If it shoots more accurately leave it floated. If not, build up a pressure point and put the upward pressure on the barrel back in. Shim it with card stock until you get the desired pressure, then just duplicate it with epoxy to make it permanent.

ALAN
Monday, April 30, 2007, at 21:30:32 (ZULU)

Folks I copied this direct from BadLands website:

Guys and Gals,

It is with a very heavy heart that I inform ya'll about the passing of one of our own. David "Doc" Rhodes passed away this morning at app. 0045 hours in his sleep. As you know, Doc has been battling the big C for a couple of years now and gave it a hell of a run for its money, whipping it and having it come back for him to whip again. Well, today it won.

Doc was a supporter of BadLands. Much more than that, he was a FRIEND. He was always there for me and my family when we were going through the battles with cancer with Zee's mom and my dad, offfering words of support, and telling us exactly what was going on with the medical cases. That was very important to us at the time to have the straight poop, instead of medical terminology and run around that the doctors give at times. He gave Allie her first small plane ride, during which, Allie promptly got airsick. At the time, she felt really bad about that, but Doc being Doc, made her feel right at ease about it, and did not embarrass her. He was there as a sounding board at anytime of the day. I did not call him when I was in the hospital, yet, he found out about it and gave me a chewing that any Marine DI would have been proud of. Doc, we love ya, and miss ya, but know that you are much more happier in heaven than you were here. Til we meet again sir....NFQ!!!!!!!!

SniperQuest this year is hereby dedicated to David "Doc" Rhodes

RIP Doc!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 21:37:04 (ZULU)

Alan:

I deleted the post by accident - don't ask.

It is a good looking rifle in the traditional sense, but does not shoot as well as I expected. I think it needs some stock work. Nice wood, leather sling, etc.

If I can find another SA Rem. 700 cheap, I would like to build an M40 copy in .223. I picked this one up in a pawn shop for $165 or so.

"I rebarreled an older Rem 700 ADL from .222 to .223. Remington builds a pressure point into their stocks. Do you think it is worth it to take this out and free-float the entire barrel? Or leave it in?"

P. Hayden
United States - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 21:42:49 (ZULU)

re: 6.5 Grendel:

The discussions I've read is that you have to shave a lot off the M16 pattern bolt to fit the PPC case, that can create problems because there is so little material left.

That would make me look very carefully...

6.5 Grendel plug:

http://www.medeshafirearms.com/articles.htm

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 22:19:55 (ZULU)

Patron Mike, I hope TIS wasn’t messed up. I’m betting you won’t see traffic back to normal for a month or so – sure looked like a major screw-up on TV. Speaking of TIS, any hope of getting Bub’s sling here by the end of the week?

The transformed seedy-see, roger that on the mags. I’d wager this too will ‘blow over’ due to the demonrats not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot before the ’08 elections. Three to six months before the election, I foresee hording by ‘speculators’, and a real ‘run on the market’ like what happened before the clintooooon legislation kicked in if ANY demonrat wins (or recounts until the win is declared by the SCOTUS). I’ve been catching up on the roaster in short spurts over the last few days, and it may be that my papers got shuffled. Or maybe it’s my memory that got shuffled. Either way it seems I caught something in your marksmanship lecture about something I had a difficult time with particularly in the beginning – dragging wood – but couldn’t find it in re-read. If not, it’s a really helpful topic, especially for those of us with smaller hands which are prone to do so.

JR / Alan, thanks for the barrel weight! I’m wanting something lighter, but still solid. Hey….. JR, how about a heavy profile with tie-downs for mylar balloons? What kind of weight did the Fatboy Slim taper come in at?

Patron ‘Lito, it’s not hiding a needle in a haystack, it’s hiding ONE SPECIFIC needle in a haystack sized mound of needles. Now that’s entertainment! I figure that’s exactly what happened when 1200 pages of my old e-mails got turned in as ‘evidence’. Gee….. we gonna read ‘em all? Not hardly. BTW, I learned something ‘bout that sign-off line of yours. Dark, very dark.

KenM, you’ve got incoming via Roasterfarian-mail.

JR said Grendel (GRIN). Grendel. HA! Maybe it’s just me…. When the quick-change Grendel barrels become available for the XCR, I’m gonna have to play. But then again, I wanted to name my boy Hrothgar too.

So where are Yote Bait and Rick? I’m gonna have to pester Joe into participating again. These guys get called Patron once or twice and they feel the need to be gone all the time. Sheesh!

No takers on the 338 Lapua Mag AR30? C’mon, there’s got to be SOMEONE that’s played with one!

Pat II, haven’t forgotten you man, but I’ve been unable to keep up with what needed to be done for a few weeks now. Things will get worked on really quick – honest.

Sir Wes, I’ll give a call this evening. Sorry ‘bout running you off before – things are way busy here. Last night I got a full 6 hours of sleep for a change, and that felt GOOD.

Bravo
Monday, April 30, 2007, at 23:06:04 (ZULU)

Bravo...

>"BTW, I learned something ‘bout that sign-off line of yours. Dark, very dark.'<

What did you learn??

Drop a dime on me this weekend.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, April 30, 2007, at 23:43:37 (ZULU)

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