Sniper Country Duty Roster

Charles-No, No, you're supposed to wear heels when riding to keep the foot from slipping too far into the stirrup or to keep your foot from being stuck if you fall off. Being dragged just ruins those slinky outfits:)

WR Moore
Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 01:03:16 (ZULU)

Pat - I've found the published BCs on the Lapua stuff to be pretty useful as a relative comparison. If my .260 could push the 139s to a reasonable speed with reusable brass, I'd buy them. The 123s are the best compromise I've found so far in the .260, mixing accuracy, consistency, performance and component life.

George Gardner drilled targets over and over with his 7WSM a year back, while I hit left and right due to wind switches....it wasn't even a contest at >700 yards.

I'm still stumping for the Norma 130 as the perfect match for the 260... will find out for sure at Allegheny in May...

medicjim
Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 02:31:16 (ZULU)

Les,

No offense was taken bro, just wasn't sure how the comment was meant.

Pat,

I understand you were looking for more info and not cutting on it.

For clarity sake I have spend a bit of time calling and reading wind for others and myself, thus I find it useful to have an input slot.

your system may do everything as well as the ABC /CABC program. This is the only program that I have seriously used alongside a rifle. and thus thought I would share what I liked about it and give some info on it.

I have messed around with the NF program and am pleased with it, though I don't have enough experience next to a rifle, I used it 1 day next to my 338 LM and it worked.

Lito,

I understand when you say that The elevation/baro variations on a 100 yd zero are non-existent because its so close there is no chance for it to effect it much.

what you mentioned and I can attest to is this, while we were shooting at distance and as the day both warmed up and the baro flexed that there were noticeable changes at the long distance.

when we inputed the environmental changes into the ABC program this took a lot of the "float" factor out.

You also make a good point about elevation changes effecting zero, which is also taken into account when you input the new elevation into the system.

I would guess that they are using some type of an algorithm that makes the adjustments to the dope so that you are able to be on when you go to shoot after a drastic elevation change, just my guess though.

Gents,

From a couple comments about the 500 yd zero I think should clarify.

You shoot Zero at 500 this is correct, but you DIAL BACK DOWN ( emphasizing not yelling ;P ) the amount of minutes that the program tells you. For instance, Zero at 500, PDA says that for the environmentals with that gun and cartridge you should have 7 3/4 minutes of angle dialed in. Then you dial down that increment and that is where you starting zero is at- or as it is referred to in the class and you now have Parallel bore zero.

The theory as I understand it is that the tighter and better group you start with at distance the less error you have both before it and after it.

For instance think of a pie piece. If you aim at a playing card at 100 yards and keep a 5 shot group on the card, and you keep another 5 shot group on a duplicate card at 500 yards. The "pie piece" should be noticeably tighter at 1200 or 1500 yards.

Mourge

EDIT TO ADD

I think I need to clarify that I dial elevation change if time allows and that we use a night force scope that allow us to dial out and back to distance

The program isn't designed for the typical hunting scope that the caps are screwed back on after shooting the zero.

Morgue
sd, ca, - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 03:50:12 (ZULU)

Morgue: "The program takes into account where you are shooting IE which parallel 32, 33 and so on, Barrel to target bearing using this data the program tells you what the correction you need to account for in windage for the Coriolis affect.there are also spots to enter wind at muzzle, between you and target and at target."

Okay, there are three input variables for wind, latitude and target bearing. What are the other input variables in the program? Distance to target? Humidity? Temperature? Barometric pressure? Vertical angle to target?

I'm not being confrontational or trying to get a pissing contest underway. I just have a fair bit of training in developing the models a program such as the one you describe would use and I'm curious. If the coriolis effect was both statistically detectable and had a practical effect, I would be surprised. But I have been surprised before.

Guys: This could be tested. I have figured out how. I didn't want to but I couldn't help it.

Why does this kind of crap bother me?

CDC'
Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 04:31:56 (ZULU)

I have to admit I'm getting kinda curious about this ballistics program. Initially, I was assuming (I know) that the 500 yard zero was to verify the the bullet was flying to predicted immpact and to correct for deviation from the computed BC/POI. From what Morgue is saying, that's not true.

If it works, it might allow you to go to an AO without a data book and still do the job. But, all the various inputs kinda strike me as being akin to the $600 toilet seats. Qualifier: I don't have the math some of y'all do.

WR Moore
Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 05:29:27 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Chuck and I discussed a road trip up there. The problem is the wife is a way again. Probly for two years. And I have animals that have gotten used to eating every day. But I may be able to sneak away and con a nieghbor into doing some chores for me. Heck I got one nieghbor to build a 40' rock wall around part of my property, about 30 feet in length, and put in a gate for free.

WR,

I see you know your riding gear! Flats are dangerous but easier on the spine.

CDC,

It's cause you are a Math-A-Majician, maybe? Luckily I have the math skills of a turnip. Therefore I just shrug and say. Huh, That don't sound right and leave it. Where as scientifically minded folks always look for the answers. Which is a good thing. I would rather just trust a good dope book for figguring out where to adjust my scope. And do so from a 100 yd zero. I think this approach is easier on my feeble mind. Sure it aint perfect but I bet its close enough for my purposes.

Ok Group Question! Under the new F-class TR rules we must use a bipod in the front or a sling. Can we use a sock in the rear?????

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio, TX, USA - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 06:33:26 (ZULU)

Steve....there you go again. Methinks you took too hard a whack on the old pumpkin. Socks go on the feets. How you wear one on the rear, I'm not sure I wanna know....Answer to the animule de-limma....put all of them in one pen. Sheep, horses, dogs. Someone's gonna get enuff to eat.....

I think he's right in one respect. You have a rifle. You know what the dope is at the various ranges, 'cuz you write it down. Eventually, you rememberize it. Comeups are easy. Wind is the problem, and there ain't no program that can look at a mirage. Everything else is just mental masturbation. I am now behind cover....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 06:55:37 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: "Can we use a sock in the rear????? "

No. You can use a sock in the nose but you could use a kick in the rear. There's no real reason; Insomnia just makes me cranky.

Charles S. Hunt: Yep, wind. This Shy-Taco deal has three inputs for wind. By the time you have the third one entered, the first has changed. If (when) you miss one wind direction by :30 or one wind speed by 10%, all the spin drift in town will go undetected.

Morgue: Do you still have access to data from this magic doohickey? I have twelve very simple questions for it. It should only take a minute.

CDC'
Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 10:09:30 (ZULU)

Damn pollen...........

Steve.........

I felt like I had a sock in my rear last weekend. To answer your question you can use any type of rest you want under the buttstock so long as it isn't attached to the stock (like a Monopod). When I started shooting years ago I used my hand under the stock like Master Bowcher prescribed, then moved to a bean bag, now shoot off a bag. Getting ready to modify my sand bag to make it closer to the ground and still retain the rabbit ears. Go here for the rules:

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_hpr_06.pdf

Bolt out!

Bolt
Pollenated in........, NC, - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 10:45:16 (ZULU)

Ref: Sniper Quest

What are the dates????

I don't want to miss another one if I can help it.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, US of A - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 11:56:55 (ZULU)

Re: the Chey-Tac "system".

What follows is preaching to the choir for many here. However, they are not the only readers.

There are a couple of reasons to zero at longer ranges. One is that some models of the Barrett came with a one-degree base, i.e., 60 MOA. That guaranteed that with some scopes you couldn't use a 100 yard zero, because you couldn't get one - the scope didn't have enough elevation travel to get there starting from 60 MOA of slant.

Another reason is that it can be more accurate. If you look at the trajectory curve for a .308, it's pretty much flat from about 70 yards to 110 yards. So, is your 100 yard zero really a hundred yard zero, or is it a 90 yard zero?

But by the time you get out to 500 yards, you're out far enough to see some distances in elevation. That assumes, though, that you have good enough data on YOUR gun and YOUR cartridge to KNOW what the elevation out to be under the conditions that you're shooting under, so that you can dial back down to what ought to be zero.

That's one reason Chey-Tac made such a big deal out of having tracked specific cartridges with a doppler radar. Of course, if you want to go to the trouble of finding out highly accurate range-specific data for your cartridge, it's easy enough to do shooting paper - you just need targets which are pretty big.

Another step in their "system" was to correct the elevation you found at whatever range you zeroed at, to standard metro atmospheric conditions, i.e., BP of 29.52, temperature of 59 deg. F, 78 percent relative humidity.

That allowed you to use a standard firing table which expressed comeups under standard conditions, provided you corrected that data to what you were going to fire in.

A good ballistic program takes care of all of that.

Field Firing Solutions, the program Master Rick helped specify, allows you to "tune" the program to your field-derived dope, reducing uncertainties such as those which result from using a short zero - but ANY ballistic program can be tuned to do that.

So, is Chey-Tac's program better than any others? I don't know the answer to that, as I've never used it. Exbal/Nightforce, Horus Vision's Atrag, and Field Firing Solutions all work pretty well for me.

Coriolus effect exists, and is well known. Artillery folks know that. Does it have a measureable effect at the ranges most of us shoot at? No. Does it have a measureable effect beyond 1500 yards with a .50-caliber class weapon? Probably. So, if you're firing a .338 LM or a .50 at long range, there may be some value in considering that.

Maybe. My experience has been is that even at long range, the effects of phenomena like coriolus and spin drift are overwhelmed by the effects of the wind - and no technology yet exists to measure the wind down range accurately enough to worry about those other effects. I fire a round, spot the impact, and correct as necessary. A second-round hit a few seconds after the first impact is often as good as a first-round hit - and really long distance shooting is often anti-material shooting, rather than anti-personnel.

And no long-distance shooting method beats calling in an airstrike.

Your mileage may vary.

But nothing beats having shot your cartridge out to distance, as long as you're shooting under similar conditions. If you mostly shoot at sea level, but want to pop into Afghanistan and make a one-mile shot at 14,000 feet, then a ballistic program might be handy.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 12:56:07 (ZULU)

Morgue,

Thank you for your explaination.

Lindy,

Very well said!!! I think you covered it all in a nut shell. I am not familiar with Cheye Tecs program so I don't want to knock it. All I was saying is that it just seems to be a hopped up version of a regular ballistic program that really doesn't offer that much more in the way of "Useful" data to the shooter. You still have to guess the wind and if your off then your data for the shot will be faulty too.

MedicJim,

I would not disagree with you on the lighter bullets for the 260. I even think the new 123MK or the 123 Lapua may be the ultimate bullet for that size of cartridge. You can push them to nearly 3000fps and they shoot great with a good BC and should be easier on the barrel. What more can you ask, life is good!!!(HA)

Pat
Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 13:22:28 (ZULU)

Pat & medicjim,

Berger's recent introduction of their 120gr. and 130gr. VLD bullets in the 6.5 diameter might just change the conventional wisdom of the 123 (Scenar or SMK) as being the ideal for the .260 and smaller cartridges.

It will be interesting to find out.

Fag-mag country,

So far this season I've been experimenting with both the 139 Scenars and the 142 SMK's, using both H4350 and H4831SC. Preliminary results show that this barrel likes the scenars over the SMK's and 4350 over 4831.

"There's nothing new under the sun" :(

ALAN
Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 14:40:54 (ZULU)

Kevin,

SniperQuest 07 will be held September 28-30th. Just a peek of ideas we are working on..Land Navigation..so brush up on the map and compass fellers!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 15:31:43 (ZULU)

CDC,

I reeeeeally don't need the sock in the nose. After all the broken bones and whack on the noggin I had recently I don't need anything extra. Just so you know after two Cat scans and two MRIs they found my brain. They stated my brain is worth what I paid for it. Good to know it hasn't devalued. HA...

Bolt,

Thanks. I used to use my hand under the rear like Master Rick stated. I use a sock with those lil polystyrene(sp) beads in it now. Just want every advantage I can get the next time I shoot a match, possibly in May at Ft Wolters in Mineral Wells. You would think around San Antonio there would be a place to freakin shoot some matches with out driving 300 miles.

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
Mico , Texas, USA - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 15:50:27 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: There's a sniper match this weekend at Rifles Only, which is about 160 miles from San Antonio. However, that match filled up 3 days after registration for it opened, and there is still a waiting list. There will be another one in the fall, probably in October.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 18:00:07 (ZULU)

Lindy,

I still have some healing to do from a bad fall. Shooting with sore ribs would really suck. That's why I got to wait till about late April or May. I may head over to Houston's Bayou Range matches. its only 220 miles from here. I really need to just bull doze a range on my place. May work on that this summer.

Dirty Steve
Mico, Texas, USA - Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 18:39:02 (ZULU)

Subject: NM+ M1A - reasonable sale price?
Can anyone give a reasonable sale price for this NM+ M1A? Work done by Smith Enterprises. All NM parts, lugged receiver, USGI op rod, glass bedded, Douglas medium 1 in 10 barrel. I've had some sub .5 groups but overall I would say a solid .6 shooter.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/breakpointx/album?.dir=aba3&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

breakpointx
Wednesday, March 21, 2007, at 22:04:59 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: Sorry to hear you are playing hurt. Damnably inconvenient.

CDC'
Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 00:15:41 (ZULU)

Coriolus...

My wife was watchin a dvd about that captain's mandolin the other night ; )

I don't want to start another pistol wars but, what factory ammo are you guys using in your 45 carry pistols. I'm trying to narrow down my choices for my G36.

Thanks

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 00:21:29 (ZULU)

41's: 230 gr hydroshocks.

CDC'
Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 02:27:04 (ZULU)

CDC: What 4I's said...and I'd throw in Win Rangers (if you can find 'em)...but mostly whatever your pistol likes, and don't miss!

Just to start something.... I may have sold my DPMS LR308 (I have an FN SPR for the "long range" stuff), so now I'm in the hunt for a semiauto battle rifle. Not to disparage the M1A/Garand systems, but I know something of them. What I'd like to know is all y'all's opines on the FAL system...in a "high end" piece...DSA/Entreprise or orig. FN? I know the weight...'bout the same as a '14, but things like trigger qualities, reliability in primitive conditions and accuracy/durability of accuracy to enable a relatively informed hole in the wallet?

I'm just scotch enough (no slighting of our buddies in the land of haggis and the best liquor on earth) to not care for the HK/CETME treatment of brass....and I don't have a fat enough wallet for a SIG in 7.62.... Other suggestions in a main battle riffle???

Spring is sprung, but the druids here'bouts ain't cavorting just yet.

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 02:46:59 (ZULU)

4i's,

230 grain SXT's.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 02:47:35 (ZULU)

CDC,

I don't have it here, but still can get access to it. So send when ready...

Lindy,

Thanks for cleaning up the garble, and providing more clarity. Much more eloquent that I.

Mourge out

Morgue
SD, CA, - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 04:11:35 (ZULU)

Darren,

Please tell me more about the San Jose match you mentioned. I've never heard of it but I guess it's probably at the Metcalfe range on the south side of town.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area , CA, - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 04:30:37 (ZULU)

4i's, I like the Speer 230 Gold Dots. But in reality any premium bullet will do a fine job. They all expand well. I would just pick one that shoots well and stick with it.

CDC (and any other that might be slightly curious),

I am recovering from a fall from a horse going full tilt onto a paved road. All my fault not the horses, which makes it worse. I borke most of my ribs on the right side(nurse told me 10 of them. felt like it too) My scapula was cracked. Plus a subdural hematoma. I needed a chest tube for all the blood in my chest not allowing my lungs to fill up with much needed air. I spent a week in the hospital. On the bright side I conducted a inspection of the Military Hospital so if Congress needs me to give a report I can give them two thumbs up.

I live out in the sticks so the ambulance took an hour to get to me. Luckily they hooked me up real quick with drugs and did thier EMT stuff. Then as they were getting ready to load me in the wagon. It breaks down. So another hour wait for another Ambulance. Then when we get just inside the city limits I hear those words that really suck to hear when your laying there. "We need to divert to Wilford Hall because his vitals are dropping bad." To which I replied, "Thanks a f&*%ing lot." I then remember nothing till they cut off my pants in the ER. Telling them to take off my neck thingie cause it was hurting the back of my head where it bumped into the road.

I was out for 5 weeks from work, then went back to full duty. I tried to sign in sooner but forgot my password. Marius was busy watching a snail try to make it on to an ark or something like that. But then he got me my lost password. (Just Funning with you Marius)

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
Mico, Texas, USA - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 07:20:45 (ZULU)

4i's...Same as CDC;230 Hydrashocks. They are "snappy" in a LW Commander.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 13:20:46 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: Back in my misspent youth, I worked for an outfitter. One thing I noticed about the old guys was that they all limped. When the subject came up they all told stories of being dumped, kicked, stepped on, tumbled with, bucked, stomped, etc.

Me? Just one shoulder injury that reminds me that it's winter and a having a good "dumped then dragged" story was a near run thing. Man, that right foot was wiggling hard.

The moral of our story is that horses are like Congress; Their "Power/Brains" ratio is way too high.

And get well soon, of course.

CDC'
Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 13:21:40 (ZULU)

Marc, it is held by a group called Zouaves. Here is there URL:

http://www.zouaves.org (click on my name)

This is the the last shoot that I was at back in 2004 prior to the rug rattus being born, since then, life has given me little time to to throw lead down range.

http://www.zouaves.org/2004_international_prone/index.htm

I'm the little Asian guy with the green rifle wearing a green baseball cap and blue shirt and pants.

The next prone match (F Class) is coming up next month. http://www.zouaves.org/2007/2007%20300M%20Prone.htm

_________________________________

2007 INTERNATIONAL PRONE MATCH

Simulated 300 Meter

Match Summary: This match is roughly modeled after the 300 meter prone match shot in international competition. It is all prone and consists of three twenty shot stages (60 total record shots) shot at 200 yards using the 300 meter reduced to 200 yard target. The 300 meter target aiming black is larger than the simulated 600 yard target but the scoring rings art tighter. The middle is still the middle. Participants compete within the classification of the rifle they use.

Date: Sunday, April 29, 2007. Target preparation and squadding 0800. First round down range 0900.

Location: Santa Clara County Field Sports Park 200 yard Range.

Open to: Members of the San Jose Zouaves Rifle Club, the Santa Clara Valley Rifle Club, members of the active and reserve military and our friends.

Classes of Rifles:

·Match rifle - Match grade bolt rifles, space guns, open sights.

·Modern Service Rifle - M1A, AR15, match grade M1s, open sights.

·Classic Service Rifle, .30-06 M1 Garand, including M1D, .03-A3, No. 4 Enfield.

·Scoped Rifle - Any rifle with a scope. Rifles in this class may use a front rest such as a benchrest front rest, bi-pod and sand bags. No rear support.

·Vintage - Pre World War II era rifles with issue sights, i.e., no match sights or scopes. Includes WW I era .03s.

.30/8MM caliber maximum in all classes.

Course of fire:

Sighter stage: Three minute preparation period and five minutes for unlimited sighters. For the record stages a preparation period is incorporated into the shooting period.

Stage 1: Twenty record shots prone, single round load in 22 minutes.

Stage 2: Twenty record shots prone, single round load in 22 minutes.

Stage 3: Twenty record shots prone, single round load in 22 minutes.

Match: Aggregate of stages one through three.

Each relay will complete the course of fire before the next relay shoots.

Awards: There will be separate awards for top finishers in each class of rifle.

Squadding: Relay and target assignments will be made on a first come, first served basis the day of the match.

Fee: $15.00

_________________________________

Darren...

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 14:08:43 (ZULU)

Hi guys,If I plan on having a reamer cut off of my round,where would the best seating depth be for a 308.

My builder says seat the bullet so that the base of the bullet is about .050 off the bottom of the neck.I just think that there is not that much of the bullet left in case.Plus that would give me a long leade.

I think I should set the bullet to the standerd 2.800 load and set the leade to that,that way Im sure to get the short throat.

thanks JK

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 15:26:31 (ZULU)

Hey Jon-K...

>"My builder says seat the bullet so that the base of the bullet is about .050 off the bottom of the neck.I just think that there is not that much of the bullet left in case.Plus that would give me a long leade.

I think I should set the bullet to the standard 2.800 load and set the leade to that,that way Im sure to get the short throat."<

That stuff about seating 0.050 off the bottom of the neck is made up BS. There is no such standard and no advantage to it. 2.800 is fine - most magazines are 2.835, so you can chase the leade for a long time.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 16:08:15 (ZULU)

Patron Kittywhacker – yeah, I knew about that range going in. It was supposed to have been done in MY county, but got pulled over there with political persuasion. This is the same range that we talked about years ago. Now it’s closer to the major population center. As-is, it’s a short 4 hour drive from me, and mostly all interstate. My guess is that I’ll head out there probably never, unless there’s something big going down. The agency range is closer... and there’s something about shooting ‘badguys’ through windows that I seem to enjoy more than shooting ‘em just standing ‘out there’. Unfortunately, our walker died. Seems someone opened up with an MP5 (I think), and shot the mechanism instead of the mover :-(

Patron Mike, do you think you could whip up a sling for a little-bitty guy? I'm thinking of taking the boy to a weekend class on position shooting and I'd like to start him out with what would be best. My cuffs don't even come close to closing around his arm.

Pat, now you know why I love the Swede ;-) I’ll be honest: I’m not the best at calling wind, probably ‘cause it gusts so hard out here. Any technological advantage I can get to partially nullify my weaknesses, or amplify my strengths, is something I’m interested in. I backed off my maximum loads to just a touch under what Alan said he was running in the X284. That’s the only thing I see to recommend the X284 – I’m about maxed at 3K, where the X284 isn’t even huffing yet. The thing I don’t know is if the same bullet would fly as well faster than 3K. If it did, then maybe the decrease in barrel life would be worth it – if not then the Swede is definitely more efficient. So did you decide the 139 Scenars were better than the 142 SMKs?

Boltster, you can do it. I’ve got faith in you. Sunflower seeds help; I’d recommend keeping a bag on hand at all times. My uncle once told me that quitting was easy, he’d done it a bunch of times. Purposefully removing yourself from insignificant drama will help, trust me.

Not-so-clean Steve, while I don’t like hearing about the bad times, I’m glad that you’re still with us. My dad’s best friend’s kid took a tumble very similar to yours – he never woke up. I’m glad you aren’t worse off!

On ammo, I’m somewhat partial now to gold dots. Here’s the deal – if everything else was equal, I’d go with hydrashoks or the DPX (since John Farnam adopted / anointed the XCR as the best carbine out there for individuals, I’ve started listening harder to what he says LOL!) but since practice is a key component I like less expensive stuff. I can load plenty of gold dot equivalent ammo for my own use, but can’t do that with hydrashok, or afford to do that with DPX. Heck, purchasing enough DPX for me to feel comfortable with saying it won’t malf in my pistol would put me in the poor(er) house.

Steve, on the FAL, DSA is good, enterprise is now better but used to be junk. Original FN? Be ready to pay. Yeah, they’re a bit heavier than a ’14, depending on furniture. Personally, I prefer the Israeli furniture for a couple of reasons – the buttstock is the shortest one made for an FAL (for me, that’s important), and the wood inserts on the vented steel handguards seems to insulate from heat better than the metal or plastic. Trigger quality? Ick. Utilitarian, and can be smoothed somewhat, but even at the best I’ve felt it’s not quite as good as a rack grade M14 trigger. Reliability in harsh-harsh for me wasn’t quite as good as the ’14, but this may be due to the fact I was running a 100% metric before (no sand cuts). The one I’ve got now – a FrankenFAL at its finest – has sand cuts on the carrier but not on the inside of the receiver. I haven’t done ‘the nasty’ with this one, so I can’t say for a 100% fact that the sand cuts help – I’m just assuming so at this point. Here’s the skinny on the FAL though... they’re like a ’16. If you keep them wet, they’re VERY reliable. Without lube though, especially when nasty, they wanna choke. Notice I didn’t say anything about clean, just lubed. The whole regulator thing is a neutral, leaning slightly to a plus, in my opinion. Know how the stick tells you it’s time to turn up the regulator? It malfs (usually in not locking the bolt open after the last round). Accuracy can be decent, but in all honesty isn’t quite up to G3 or M14 standards IMO. We’re not talking about enough looser though to be consequential – I’d field a FAL (especially this FrankenFAL) without hesitation. New chromed systems (barrel and gas tube) still are available, but not plentiful. On durability, DSA did a lovely test some years ago. They decided to pump 10K through one of theirs in (IIRC) two days. There were some breakages (handguard screw) and problems (regulator went downrange) but in all honesty 10K in that short of a time is a REAL bear on ANY weapon. I don’t know if they’re still available or not, but I’d recommend the hard chromed bolt as well. I used to bag on the FAL sights too, they were ‘better than HK91’, but not by that much. Now DSA has a lower available complete with a M16A2 sight assembly. And yes, I’m sorely tempted to buy one ($200) and retrofit. If you went that direction, the sights would almost be as good as what you have on a ’14. Lastly, the ergos of the FAL are about equal with a ’14 overall. The charging handle (I prefer the Israeli again, due to the forward assist capabilities – not that I like forward assist, but I like having that capability!) is better, and the bolt release is placed slightly better. However, the mag release isn’t as accessible as the one on the ’14, so reloading is slightly slower. That’s why I call ‘em ‘about equal’ – or ‘both better than an HK’ ;-) Really, I’ve tried different safeties and mag releases, ‘cause there’s plenty of differences between types. I prefer the L1A1 large ‘bar’ mag release and the oversized selector from DSA. Those are, of course, just my preferences though.

breakpointx – if you get $2K, I think you got a decent deal. Personally I’d start it at $2500, and let ‘em dicker two or three hundred off of it LOL!

Bravo
Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 16:09:56 (ZULU)

Bravo, for you of course. Jst send me the diameter of his bicep area and color you wnat. Heck forget that I will just make him one just like USMC just went. Same color and all. Just with small cuff. You know how to get ahold of me.

Darren that sounds like fun, where do I sign up?

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 16:21:04 (ZULU)

Mike, which match are you referring to? I am interested in 300 yard prone match.

Darren

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 17:00:55 (ZULU)

4i's,

Federal Hydra-Shock, 45ACP, 230gr

8-shot sample, Avg:851fps, SD: 8fps

PMC FMJ, 45ACP, 230gr

6-shot sample, Avg:870fps, SD: 7fps

Federal Hydra-Shock, 40-S&W, 180gr

4-shot sample, Avg:922fps, SD: 4fps

Sample sizes erratic, the chrono wasn't behaving very well that day. Didn't help that some idiot shot the sky-screens. Elevation ~9200ft., ~80F, humidity VERY low (don't have a Kestrel), clear skies.

YMMV

Duman
Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 17:13:52 (ZULU)

Guys I KNOW everyone here that reloads is beginning to get PO'd at the price of components, KNOW I was! Anyway here is a site you need to go have a look at. Daren did post this over on the Emporium but not sure how many of you guys actually go anyplace on SC except here, not that that's a BAD thing! :-) Check out his web-site and if you need 175 SMK's you ain't gonna beat this price!

www.bulletsforless.com

As you'll see he also has Hornaday bullets, and NO does not have any 69gr SMK's already asked!

I have no financial interest this is just to let you'all know!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 17:46:37 (ZULU)

Thanks Bravo - been awhile...been lurking not posting. I have an itch to build me an F class 6.5 Grendel and haven't shot that M1A in a few...

breakpoint
Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 20:32:44 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve

Outfitter I worked for in '04 in the Hoback country south of Jackson,Wyo., got pitched off a green mule right outside of camp. Broke ribs and punctured a lung on the first day of the first hunt, with a camp full of hunters. He insisted we carry on and walked out to trailhead with a hanbdgun, headlamp and cell phone(hurt too bad to ride). Tough f+*#er. Next day a couple rode through our camp in the A.M., and then again in the P.M. on the way out. Mule sniffs mare girl was riding. Mare goes ballistic, bucks girl off and dances on her head about a half mile from camp. Guy comes gallopping in yelling for help. We respond and stabilize girl as best we can and call for evac. on sat. phone. We were all pretty gunshy about the stock after a start like that.

Hope you heal well

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 22:30:05 (ZULU)

Gents,

I talked to the folks at Rock River Arms today; if you order something from them, don't expect to see it for 16 weeks. Alexander Arms (.50 Beowulf and 6.5 Grendel) says 14 weeks. I guess the democratic victory last November has some people taking preventative action.

Chris

Chris McHam
Northwest Louisiana, USA - Thursday, March 22, 2007, at 22:31:47 (ZULU)

'lito,

Weren't you building something with a Lycoming engine a while back...I think it was an airboat...what ever came of your project?

Gerry
Friday, March 23, 2007, at 03:07:29 (ZULU)

Gerry...

Yeah, it's an Everglades Air boat, with a 320 ci four cylinder Lycoming. I did a lot of work, but had to stop when I went broke with my first lawyer. It needs a new cam shaft and some other work that I'm not capable of doing, so it will take about $2,000 to $2,500 to get it in the water.

I think I might make it this fall... if not, definitely in the spring.

It's a damn cool boat. People come from nearby towns to see it, "I hear you got one of them Everglade boats, can I look at it?" It's sittin out in the side yard under one of those shrink covers.

As far as I can tell, there are only two in the state, and the other belongs to a fire dept up in the north-west corner of the state, and they don't use it.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 03:35:57 (ZULU)

Thanks Darren I'd like to shoot the prone match on the 29th of April. Do you know how big the X and ten rings are at that distance? Do I have to be a member of the club?

Dirty Steve- That sounds like a real bad day to me. Friends and family tell me motorcycles are dangerous so please don't ride them. They don't scare me near as much as a horse. Glad you made it out alive.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 06:13:10 (ZULU)

Markwell,

That was one though Hombre. I managed to get back to my feet after about 15 minutes. Then once I laid down in the back on my neighbors van I was down for the count.

What's with the shortage of reloading stuff in gun shops? There must be a war going on or something. Went by my local Gun shop and they has a single box of 175 SMK's.

Anyone hear about that Savage team out there with a new prototype Salvage (12 F/TR)? They have been whipping folks quite consistantly with them. The will be shooting at Raton. The gun has a new stiffer action, new stock and HEAVY barrel. Here is a link to a photo of it. http://www.savagearms.com/2007_pressrelease.htm

Here is a link the where I got the info.

http://savageshooters.baker-media.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,3978.0.html

Hope this isn't rehasing something. But for about a grand someone could get a competitive gun. I have the I need a new gun shivers and can't decide what I should get. Looking and mulling over the possibilities is part of the fun.

Marc,

Yeah I gave up motorcycles because they are too dangerous. Funny thing, I was one vacation when it happened and was planning on enjoying the San Antonio rodeo for both weeks. I had season tickets but couldn't use any for the second week.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
Mico , Texas, USA - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 06:31:02 (ZULU)

Lito,

You got a Lycoming O-320 and its got a bad camshaft? I think the H models had issues with bad cam design? They had an Airworthiness Directive out on those. Lycoming changed the cam design that resulted in cam "chatter" that ruined the cam. They also used the single-drive/dual magnetos too. Another dumb idea. Pretty simple engines to work on though. Parts aren't cheap as I am sure you already know.

I was an A&P mechanic and worked on general aviation aircraft from late 70's to about mid 80's or so.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 06:35:57 (ZULU)

LC .308 brass - NON match - how much should I cut back on my normal load of 44gr Varget under a 175 SMK, to start with, 1/2 gr, 1 gr? Normal brass is Lapua, but am picking up some LC. Asking because I've been using Lapua for so long don't know what it's like to use other brass!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 07:03:22 (ZULU)

Markwell,

The toughass wouldn't have been Gilroy, would it? He's one tough bastard.

Guys,

Ordered 2k of .38 bullets to reload, but, when I got them, all the lube was melted, so, rather than having wax in one of the cannlures, the whole bullet's nasty and sticky. Now, I have to get the muck off of them and re-lube them. What all do I need to size and lube bullets? I know they're probably already sized, but, if I'm gonna buy the stuff to do one, I might as well buy the stuff to do the other.

Went to my first SASS match this weekend. Pretty dang fun! Been thoroughly absorbed in gearing up for this stuff. If any of you haven't tried it, or just wonder how fast you are, I highly suggest it. I went to the one at the Central Kansas Gun Club outside Hutchinson, Ks.. Pretty nice people, all willing to help anyone out. This came in handy when I took off the vest I was wearing because I was hot, forgetting that my shotgun shells were in the pocket! Someone stepped up and gave me theirs. This might have been because my times were about double the leaders, but I suspect they're all just really nice people!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 07:38:43 (ZULU)

Somebody posted a link to a gun control poll. Since visiting that site, "stoptheNRA" and Sara Brady have been sending me emails. The last one is especially alarming. Did you realize that, unless we all send Sara Brady big piles of $$$, ignorant NRA fanatics will be able to own all the "Assault Weapons" they want?

Sends a chill down your spine, doesn't it? If I was a Lib, I'd have a hard time choosing between sucking my thumb and wetting the bed.

Morgue: .308 175SMK (BC .495) 2700fps Temp 59F Humidity 78% Barometric pressure 29.53

Latitude Range(yds) Bearing(degrees)

0 1000 315

0 1000 0

0 1000 45

0 500 315

0 500 0

0 500 45

45 1000 315

45 1000 0

45 1000 45

45 500 315

45 500 0

45 500 45

There's nothing real scientific about this sampling scheme. There doesn't seem to be much to gain from putting too fine an edge on this.

Sarge: If nobody has a better idea, I'd start by loading 2 each of 40, 40.5, 41, 41.5 and 42 then going from there. A long time ago I skipped that step and loaded a mild commercial brass load straight into LC cases. I ended up beating an old beater rifle's bolt open with a hunk of scrap lumber.

CDC'
Friday, March 23, 2007, at 10:25:14 (ZULU)

Travis, I use a "Star" brand sizer/lubricator. It is available from here: http://www.magmaengr.com/

Most sizer/lubricators push the billet into the sizer, lube it, then you have to pull the bullet back up and out. With the Star, it pushes on through with the next bullet. MUCH faster. You can get them 'air equipted' with bullet feeders and all manner of 'stuff' to add speed, nice equipment.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 13:40:06 (ZULU)

Marc, the time I went, I was with a friend. When I get word I will let you know.

I am going to Anthony Chabot to shoot on Saturday, in the afternoon.

Darren....

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 14:04:37 (ZULU)

Bill Bledsoe...

>"You got a Lycoming O-320 and its got a bad camshaft? I think the H models had issues with bad cam design? They had an Airworthiness Directive out on those. Lycoming changed the cam design that resulted in cam "chatter" that ruined the cam."<

It's not chatter... I found the boat is a garage in Illinois, and it had been sitting for several years. All the A&P people I spoke with said that because the cam is on top, they don't soak in oil like the Continentals with the cam down low. So if the engines aren't run for a long time, the cam gets rusty.

I don't know how badd it is because I haven't had the engine apart yet, but I'm assuming that it either needs a new (rebuilt) cam, or this one cleaned and re-ground. I have seen Yellow tag re-grinds on ebay for $200 to $400.

But since it sat for so long, I want someone to check the whole engine before I blow it up because of some bad part that costs $50... The local A&P said that in good condition, the engine alone is worth $14,000+, and he offered to buy it from me.

Compression is very good on all jugs, and the valves are good (I looked inside with a light and little mirror). It needs a cleaning up.

So I think it's a winner that just need a good look over and a few parts fixed or replaced, valves lapped, and carbon cleaned out.

Every thing else is good or new - I replaced the starter with a brand new "High tech" one, and bought a brand new carb (not a rebuild) and got a steal on it because it was NOS and had just slipped off the FAA approved list. The maker put a special plate on it that says "AIRBOAT"

I removeed the oil cooler and cleaned it out, and then I put in a second oil cooler made for 18 wheeler diesel engines, in line the the original, so that it is 5 times the cooling area, so that is good.

The prop is brand new, and I got a new electric fuel pump/regulator... I got about $2,500 in new pieces parts (scrounged most of it), but I bought the whole boat for $2,500, so I'm not in too deep.

>"Parts aren't cheap as I am sure you already know."<

HA! Ju got that right Mang!!

>"I was an A&P mechanic and worked on general aviation aircraft from late 70's to about mid 80's or so."<

You wanna come up and visit for a week... I'll let you shoot some really cool guns while you are here? Bring your tools ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 14:28:35 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

That Savage F/TR rifle sounds cool, doesn't it? A member of our club has one on order. I can't wait to shoot it.

More F-class news from Savage! They've got a new F/Open class rifle with a heavier stock than the TR model chambered in 6.5-284 with a 30" 1/8 twist barrel. Supposed to be available in May.

Also, their LRPV (Long Range Precision Varmint) rifle will be available in .223 with a 1/7 twist barrel (last years was a 1/9) for those long heavy bullets. There are rumors that they'll have one of these rifles available in 6BR in the near future.

All this stuff for quite a bit under $1K steet price! Somebody at Savage is listening. WTF is wrong with Remington? Actually, that question is rhetorical;)

ALAN
Friday, March 23, 2007, at 15:09:43 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I am still playing with the Sweede. I found a load with the 140s that shot around .5MOA out to 700yds but when I went to reorder bullets they had went from $160 a thousand to $260 a thousand.

Then I found some 139 Lapuas for $200 a thousand and decided to buy them. Well guess what?? My gun has not really cared for them so far. Sooooo... I am back to load testing again.

I will decide on either 4350 or 4831 this weekend. These are the the two powders that seem to shoot the best in it. None of the other popular powders for the Sweede have worked for me. I have gotten some decent groups with these two powders but then sometimes I can't repeat them. The wind has been a tad tough on me lately but my 260 still shoot good groups in the wind so the 6.5x55 should to, to my way of thinking. Hope all is well with you!!!!

Pat
Friday, March 23, 2007, at 15:30:37 (ZULU)

As Sarge said,

The "bulletsforless" guy is good to deal with. I just recieved 1K of those 175 SMK's on Wed.

I know a guy, he's got a store, in ND; and he can't get them for their prices, as a dealer. He's wanting to go there now too.

Bulk packed, not individual boxes. Fast return. I got no dog in this fight, just letting you all know that it's cool, and legit.

God Bless,

Sean Thomas
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 16:10:33 (ZULU)

Darren, the 300 Prone Match. I dont care how small the X ring is, it will be same size for all of us. LOL Marc just messing with you. I will see whats up with Kids Sat. I may go up and get a zero on one of my rifles. I want to check some new ammo out.

Catman, my boat, 20' bass, only has 225 HP on it but sure will get air if I open up. Only thing that goes faster is gas gauge. She'll run around 80mph but does not see over 40mpf very often. Cots to much to go fast and fish dont know difference. I know alot of places out here in Cal Delta that an air boat would be great in. Was out yesterday (Needed a day off from sling making as all I can see is Tan nylon in my head) and they have a Bass Master Fishing Tourney on Delta. Last week was FLW Tourney. Man all I have to say is they have turned Bass Fishing into Nascar with all the sponsers posted everywhere. The boats look like all the style and grace of a cheap Who.. House, with all the bill board adds covering the whole boat.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 16:19:01 (ZULU)

Lito,

Sounds like the engine is in good shape if the compression is good. Might just need to tear it down and clean it up. Cam might not be rusted at all. No way to tell until you got it out. Depending on how many hours the engine has on it since its last overhaul there might be some oil sludge inside the cases, and a tear down would make it easy to get the crap out of it.

My last "project" was a Continental O-200 that had been sitting forever. The guy that bought it owned one of the local FBO's and was looking to cut corners. But this engine was to be installed in one of his ratty Cessna 150's so it had to be FAA approved. His shop manager told him not to buy it, but he didn't listen. It ended up costing him a ton of money because it was worn out. I was flying for Evergreen Airlines back then and worked five days on, and nine days off so I had lots of time to work on it. I think I had it in the air in about a week or so.

You're in PA if I recall? Might be able to make a little road trip in the near future. Gonna take some time off when the kid graduates in June. Do you have a Lycoming shop manual for that engine? Offering the opportunity to shoot some really cool guns is like offering a drunk a bottle of Chivas. Irresistable.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 18:33:44 (ZULU)

Mike, cool...I will be there between 12:30 and 1:00. Still waiting on info on the prone match.

Darren

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 18:45:10 (ZULU)

Alan,

Yeah I saw that Open gun too. I am thinking of getting one to play with. I need a new toy. I have enough 308's so that 6.5-284 looked appealling. This way I can get a good rifle that I may only shoot twice a year and still be competitive. I have a spare Loopy M3 LR I can stick on it.

Bullet lubing! The STAR IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO! The Stars speed makes up for the slightly more cost of the machine. plus you don't need anything other than the sizing die. no additional punches to purchase. I have thier Magma Master Caster too. Way less tiring than using regular molds. So you can keep your speed up.

Dirty Steve......

Dirty Steve
Mico, Tx, USA - Friday, March 23, 2007, at 19:39:11 (ZULU)

Bill Bledsoe said: "I was flying for Evergreen Airlines back then and worked five days on, and nine days off so I had lots of time to work on it."

Bill...THE EVERGREEN AIR? When I was living in Oregon they were based in McMinnville and the rumors abounded about their ties to the CIA/Air America...

Gerry
Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 04:10:36 (ZULU)

Re: Clovis, N.M. hit by tornado

Reports are pretty sketchy right now but looks like Clovis, N.M. has been hit by a multi-vortex tornado. Damage assessments are being made. So far, no deaths reported. We have a roster hawg, Lt. Rich Johnson, with the Clovis P.D. and his family living in Clovis. Rich is a SWAT Commander with the P.D. and instructor at Badlands.

This is extremely unusual for this kind of weather to be happening in March... and in Eastern N.M. as well.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 04:26:16 (ZULU)

Mk4,

I hope that Rich and his loved ones are all ok.

Algwhore will probably blame it on global warming!

ALAN
Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 05:50:46 (ZULU)

My wife and I spoke tonight and she was telling me the winds were just plan crazy in El Paso(Ft Bliss) tonight. Guess that Tornado in NM was part of the same storm system.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 06:44:42 (ZULU)

Prone match in the South Bay.

We need only show up Mike and Marc. They will provide a waiver which needs to be filled out and sign.

Darren

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 06:44:42 (ZULU)

UnDudeski...

I hear ya on the gas... this puppy burns 14 gallons an hour "at speed", and has a 105 gallon tank (and burns 93 octane or better ;(((

Draggin in to a gas station and saying "Fill 'er up" gives new meaning to "I'm broke".

If I burn 14 gallons an hour, but I have a 6 foot propellor on it, does the wind from the propeller cancel the global warming from the engine?

;))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 10:52:45 (ZULU)

Gents, (Active LE / Mil guys only ... sorry)

This is one excellent event and well worth attending.

Very well done.

http://www.centermassinc.com/1032188.html

If you make it out ... please look me up and say hello.

Best regards.

brian k. sain
Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 13:48:54 (ZULU)

Brian, While your up there why not reduce the Rag threat. Excellent place to start.

Chuck Hunt, enjoyed the visit yesterday. Always good to meet a fellow LE guy and shooter.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 14:51:20 (ZULU)

Champion (click) has Lapua .308 brass for $41/100. Is that the best price around?

CDC'
Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 15:10:27 (ZULU)

Guys, I met Mr. Reifinger yesterday. Went down there before work to meet a fellow Rosterfarian. As luck would have it, i lost one of my belts a few miles before I got there, of course it would be the fan/alternator belt, so the truck started to over heat and I had to shut 'er down and sit. Jim came out in his POV to get me. Got me back to the site ok. Fellas, these guys are a real class act. Since they do a lot of work with cars (wow!) they have a garage and staff. They replaced all of my fan belts and wouldn't take a dime from me! I was flabbergasted. In a time when it seems like everyone is out to grab whatever they can get from anyone, it was a real honor to meet men of that caliber. Jim, a public "Thank You"! The pleasure was all mine. I will find a way to even it up, like it or not!

D.Steve and I looked at the new Savage in the offing yesterday. It's intriguing, to say the least. The way they've engineered the new receiver is interesting. The integral bipod rail and adjustable cheek piece, at that price point, is just about too much to pass up. So much for saving the tax refund! Both my Howas are staring at me from the gun cabinet, reproachfully. Gonna have to go mollify them, and call my mental health care professional.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 15:15:55 (ZULU)

De nada Chuck

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, March 24, 2007, at 15:49:33 (ZULU)

Thanks Darren I'll be there to whoop Mike's ass with the rifle he sold me last year HA!! I might get close to him anyway since we'll be shooting close range and my lousy wind reading won't hurt me LOL.

I wanted to get out to Chabot today to see you guys but couldn't make it. I'll be there tomorrow for sure.

I'll see you at the match if not sooner.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Sunday, March 25, 2007, at 06:47:56 (ZULU)

Some notes on scopes...

I'm off to find a new scope brand :((

Aside from the Leupold/Premier Fiasco, my other (and main) issue with Leups is that they are pricing themselves out of the market. I mean EVERYONE is bitching about $700 to $900 varmint scopes that are optically, not that great. They are good, but NOT great!

The "New 30mm Long Range" Line is just the old 1" line in 30mm tube - all the inside optical parts are exactly from the 1" production line, and put in a 30mm tube. All they offer is more elevation. That's nice if you are a 1,200 yd shooter, but other than that, you get nothing for the extra $300 they get for these fat, over weight puppies.

I had bought two of the 6.5-20x44 Nikons some five years ago, and I abso-friggin-lutely fell in love with them.

Some of the best glass I have looked through. Everything else was fine - the standard lock ring for the eyepiece, nice aesthetic appearance. They were classic scopes.

So last week I ordered another 6.5-20x44 Nikon. I ordered it with the BDC reticle, cuz they are being discontinued, and that was the only reticle I could get :(

Well... it turns out that this is a later "model" of the scopes that I had bought.

The Reticle is as fat as a fence post, and has NO business in a 20x varmint scope... it is a brush reticle. But that was the least of the problem.

The worst thing was that this "New version" of the 6.5-20x44 was substantially different than the other two I had bought.

It has a "Fast focus" eye piece... now what the hell do you need a fast focus eye piece on a rifle scope for - I mean, you focus it once, and lock it in place, and leave it alone... for 30 years.

But I forgot to mention that you can't lock it in place anymore. So now, it can be moved off of adjustment by accident, and there are no markings, like the +1 2 3 and -1 2 3 you have on your binoculars so you can tell if it has been moved. So now you can wind up in parallax hell without knowing it.

Why?? I don't know - it's not like the shooting worls was demanding "fast focus" eye pieces. Maybe it's because now they can use many of the same eyepiece parts that they use on binoculars, and cut costs. I'll bet they save about $4 on each $500 scope. This is NOT something that the shooting market demanded, it's something that Nikon (and others) are dumping on us.

So I looked at the new incoming line of Nikons and it seams that the kitchen appliance designers have gotten into the rifle scope drafting rooms... the NEW-NEW Nikon scope have fast focus eyepieces that look like a hard boiled egg was stuck on the back of the scope... and (again) there is no lock ring for the eyepiece setting.

These new Nikons are dog ugly, and I'm an old fashioned guy that thinks that riffles are 'possed to have pleasing lines and aesthetics, as well as shoot.

So now I'm looking at the Sightron line. They have a new string of scopes coming out called the S-IIB that have classical lines of a "looong" varmint scope. Though I have never owned one, the Sightron scopes are well thought of in the Bench crowd, and use the Weaver tracking system, which is about the best around.

Off my rant now, I'll go have a DDR&LJ and get used to the fact that the world is changing, and they didn't ask for any of my input!!

:((((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 25, 2007, at 15:24:32 (ZULU)

Yesterday I went to Wally World to buy a beater 870 for ducks, geese, pheasants and the occasional grouse.

Closing on a house is less paperwork. It took 40 minutes and the guy was working the whole time.

CDC'
Sunday, March 25, 2007, at 15:52:16 (ZULU)

Lito,

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. I'm looking for a new scope to so keep every one posted. I have two of the Old Loopy M3 LR's I got from Priemer before the train wreck with Loopy. I don't care for the Sprongfeld I have on my Salvage 223. I just don't trust it to be on anything that kicks or it may go into auto correct mode for windage again. Even if there is no wind. HAHA.

I was thinking of trying one of those Tabassco SS from SWFA. I don't need the best scope. Just a nice scope that works as it should. The reviews posted here gave them a nod of approval. Not hey these are the cat meow but just "Hey these things work as they should."

Well gunna see if I can still shoot a pistol. Just hope the ribs won't hurt. Well hurt too much.

Pain lets you know your still alive.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, March 25, 2007, at 16:08:02 (ZULU)

Marc, Darren sorry could not make it yesterday. Hoenydo list was too long. Marc you can beat my arse another day. I am planning on the 29 April match. Have not decided if I use a 260 or my F Class 308.

Catman, I think I found your solution to the scope thing. I testeed the Super Sniper a couple of years ago and it did well but optics where not as good as they could be. Seems the US Army asked for an upgrade to the lenses and got it. A couple of weeks ago Super Sniper sent me the upgraded lense model and man it good glass for a 800.00 dollar scope and fantastic for the 300.00 dollar scope it is. You can go with either rear or side focus. Both work about the same but the side cost 100.00 more. I am told they upgraded the insides to all steel also but I ahve not taken it apart, yet.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Sunday, March 25, 2007, at 17:35:01 (ZULU)

UnDude...

For this, I need a variable with a low end of 5 or 6 and a high end of 20 to 24.

It's for wee critters.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 25, 2007, at 18:34:13 (ZULU)

RE: Billy the Kid's 1911 holster

You hawgs need to jump in here and bid!! (best laugh I've had in a while)

(click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 04:26:24 (ZULU)

You've got to read the Q&A at MK4's link. Somebody is having a blast:

"Q: Is this for one of the early black powder 1911s? I have some very old loads that may be from the same era- would you be interested in adding to your collection...

"A: It depends on what you consider to be "early". As you probably know, Colt 1911 pistols manufactured prior to 1911 have negative serial numbers, and the..."

"Rare" is the right word. I'm hurting.

CDC'
Monday, March 26, 2007, at 04:43:25 (ZULU)

Travis

No it wasn't Gilroy. You jnow him?? The outfitter was Dave Hanna. Dave got horses sometimes from Gilroy.

Went to OGCA gun show this weekend; first mistake. Took cash; scond mistake. Came home with 5" S&W model 27 and pre-Garcia Sako Vixen Varminter in 223; no mistake but definitely pushing it. Had a similar Sako in 222 35 years ago and traded it off; have lusted for another ever since.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 13:05:28 (ZULU)

CDC,

Did you catch Billy the Kid's Da Vinci Code connection?

"He had, in fact, married a woman by the name of Maria Magdalena, in Santa Fe, NM, in March of 1881. The marriage ceremony was said to have been secretly performed by New Mexico territorial Governor Lew Wallace. I was told that Billy's (now pregnant) wife fled to France in the months following Billy's death at Fort Sumner, and eventually found her way to this area of France to gave birth to a son. It seems that to this day many of the residents of the village are direct descendents of William H. Bonney, although over time the name was Francofiled to drop the "y"."

I'm still wiping away tears.....

Yeah, don't miss the Q&A.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 14:22:54 (ZULU)

Markwell,

Yup, I worked for Gilroy at his camp below pinnacle peak, on the N. fork of the buffalo about 11 yrs. ago. I think everyone in the area owns a horse Gilroy has owned at some point. Does he still have that English guy, Mike working for him?

BTW, guys, if any of you need a really good Deer/Elk/Bear guide with excellent hunting areas near Jackson Hole, Wy., Get ahold of Paul Gilroy. He's near Hoback Junction. Former Green Beret, a real prick, and a hell of a guy.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 15:02:15 (ZULU)

Mike (undude) no worries. Had a great time. Went first to Jackson Arms and coached two new shooters on proper handgun handling and usage. Then went off to Chabot Rod and Gun Club and met a gentleman by the name of John (RO) - nice guy, gave me a Marine Corp singing bottle opener :-)

Mike, the F Class Comp is on April 29, not March.

Darren

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 15:06:03 (ZULU)

Lito,

I'm sorry to hear about Loopie's poor design decision. In some aspect, it's borderline 'fraud'. You pay for 30mm optics, but get 25mm optics instead. I think I'm finished with Leupold.

Undude's endorsement of the NFS scopes has me interested in trying one of those, but I'm not sure if the reticles would be suitable for my varmint hunting needs. They have 'fine-plexs' and the 'NP1-RR', in addition to the mil-reticles. One challenge I've found with 'fine-plex' reticles is that on occasion, in sage-brush, the reticle can get washed out.

I've acquired a Swarovski, AV-6x18, TDS-4 reticle, I'm going to try out this summer. I'm not afraid to spend big $$ on optics, but I like to know it's good stuff before I open the wallet. I was thinking Nikon, but thanks to your review, I'm hesitant.

Thanks for the info.

Duman
Monday, March 26, 2007, at 15:56:09 (ZULU)

CAUTION: OFF TOPIC - Global Warming

==================================================================

AL-MIGHTY PREACHER RUNNING OUT OF POWER

By JOHN PODHORETZ

March 22, 2007 -- AL GORE went to do his preacher- scientist-prophet thing yesterday on Capitol Hill - and he said unto the elected politicians listening to his testimony that they must "walk through that fire" to save the planet.

The Goracle asked the members of Congress in front of him to be brave and adopt policies that may do grievous short-term harm to the economy in exchange for the long-term benefit of curing climate change.

The free market can't be trusted to fix this problem, saith the Goracle, so the politicians have to fix it with unpopular legislation.

Fair enough. He believes the world is in a crisis and that politicians must do what is best, not what is convenient.

But what about the Goracle walking through a little fire himself? He knows as well as anyone that the only form of energy that has no affect whatever on greenhouse gases is nuclear energy.

And yet here the Prophet of Doom was bizarrely tentative.

"I'm not opposed" to nuclear power, spake the Goracle, but suddenly he became deeply solicitous of the role of the free market. Nuclear plants are expensive to build, you see, and when the price of gas drops, energy companies drop their plans to construct them.

Given the level of his concern, why would the Goracle not suggest Congress offer enormous incentives to energy companies to build nuclear-power plants?

And since many companies don't even bother to try to build nuclear plants because of community opposition, why would he not embark upon an educational effort to explain to the American people the environmental benefit to be gained from a major program to build nuclear power plants?

Why? I'll tell you why. Nuclear power is an ancient bugbear for the environmentalist left, and Gore is now their leader and sovereign. He's willing to speak the Inconvenient Truth to Power - just so long as it doesn't offend his own power base.

And speaking of a power base: Does his appearance yesterday herald the entrance of the Goracle into the 2008 race?

Well, even some of those inclined to offer ecstatic reviews of his appearance - like the blogger Brian Beutler, who covered the Prophet's every word - could only come up with phrases like "he did pretty well."

On the other hand, he showed one sign he's thinking about it. In his statement he called this time "our Thermopylae moment." Thermopylae was the site of the ancient battle between the Greeks and the Persians immortalized in the mammoth hit movie "300."

This is pure sound-bite politics, as practiced by presidential campaigns and White Houses - it's what politicians do if they want to get themselves on the evening news.

The only problem is that analogizing America in 2007 to Thermopylae makes no sense whatever.

The Goracle speaks in bad riddles!

=================================================================

Duman
Monday, March 26, 2007, at 17:59:16 (ZULU)

Looks like I'll give the gold dots a try. Being able to load practice ammo to carry specs is a major plus. If the gun is fairly accurate with them.

What ticks me off about scopes is that leupy is the only one who has mildots in a spotting scope. I'm thinking about getting one of the big objective high power NF's riflescopes to double up as a spotter.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 19:24:55 (ZULU)

Folks,

Since the AWB has expired temporarily, are shotgun magazine

extensions legal for, say, an 18" 870? Just wondering.

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 19:30:36 (ZULU)

Duman, I do like my NXS scopes.

Litto, damm no good advice on the less expensive varible scopes. I hear rumors of a varible super sniper but nothing solid yet.

Darren, unless something bad happens I will be there.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 19:57:14 (ZULU)

Mark Taylor,

I believe that the late unlamented federal AWB only regulated detachable magazines with a capacity of over ten rounds. Since an extended shotgun tube magazine is fixed it shouldn't have been affected by the ban, unless some individual state decided to regulate on its own. I've purchased several seven shot extended magazine equipped shotguns while the AWB was still in effect from FFL's and the question never even came up. I've seen the extended magazine conversion kits for sale legally both during the ban and afterwards. In short, they're legal unless your locality doesn't permit them.

Duman,

I don't believe that a 30mm scope tube in itself offers any improvements optically over a 1" tube, all other things being equal. The advantage to having a 30mm tube is that they can pack more MOA into the adjustment mechanism. Loopy committed the sin of using the old Vari-X III glass in a 30mm scope then renaming it a MK4 without using the superior glass of the REAL MK4 scopes.

I'd be surprised if you couldn't find at least a couple of reticles in the Nightforce line that would suit you very well indeed. Have you checked the reticle selection on their 'site? Also, there's a reticle that doesn't show up on their 'site yet named the NP-R1. It's just like the NP-R2 that's pictured, but the elevation hash marks are spaced at 1MOA instead of 2MOA. Remember that all of their reticles are illuminated, making it kind of hard to lose one.

ALAN
Monday, March 26, 2007, at 21:55:32 (ZULU)

Mark and ALAN...

The AWB banned shotguns with magazines over 5 rounds IF they had a pistol grip or a folding stock.

So you could have the long mag, OR a pistol grip and or a folder - now you can have anything you want, as long as it's not against state law.

ALAN... on the MK4s... the two REAL MK4 scopes, the original MK4-M1 and the MK4-M3 were all 30mm stuffies - but a few years ago, the "Havaad" MBAs that Loopie hired thought, "Why not have a bunch of MK4 scopes, since we can charge more for them".

So all the other 10 or 12 MK4 30mm scopes - all the variables, are scopes with large tubes and 1" optics inside.

Only thing they offer is more elevation and side focus (which Nikon and others fit in a 1" tube).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 22:01:35 (ZULU)

Travis

Dave Hanna's camp is on Kilgore creek west of Bondurant. Outfit was sold a couple of years ago and is now Hoback Peak Outfitters; operating in the same area. Dave guided for Paul before he owned his own outfit. Before both our times. My son Brock guided for Dave for about five seasons, working summer pack trips in the Winds for another outfit, and then Dave in the fall.. Hope to be going back this Fall. The draw treated the outfit pretty well this year so there should be work..Small world isn't it???????????????

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Monday, March 26, 2007, at 22:51:57 (ZULU)

On the MRK 4's I have three of them,two in the 8.5x25 and one in the 3.5 to 10.I think I like the 10 power better.I just might sell the other two for a NSX.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, March 26, 2007, at 23:02:18 (ZULU)

ALAN,

Thanks for the info on NFS reticles. I have a printout with them (except NP-R1). I like the MLR, NP-R*, and the NP-1RR looks interesting.

Also, thanks for the feedback of 25mm vs. 30mm. My beef with the 25mm vs. 30mm has less to do with optics, than with integrity. Lito educated me on the price vs. diameter, being a cubic function. If loopy is gouging me for 30mm optics, and not putting the 30mm optics into the scope, then I take issue. Irrational, I know, but it irks me.

It strikes me that Loopie (and maybe Nikon) are 'riding the reputation'. Developed a great brand over a number of decades, got a huge following, now cheesing the product to skim extra profits, then dump the company, for someone else to clean up the (yet to happen) mess. It's happened in virtually every other industry.

Or, maybe I'm just being cynical.

Duman
Monday, March 26, 2007, at 23:19:07 (ZULU)

Found on the Kansas Concealed weapons forum.

Navy rules for a fight:

1) Adopt an aggressive offshore position

2) Send in the Marines

3) Drink coffee

Anyone know any good books about shotguns in general? Just bought a Mossberg 500 with Hogue pro-comp stock and ported barrel. Thinking of using it for 3 gun.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 00:02:56 (ZULU)

Travis: Gabe Suarez wrote one. There are some good videos. Awerbuck (sp) is good on theory, manipulation and transitions. Mike Plaxco's is better on shooting. Gunsite has one that covers both. If you can find John Shaw's, it has some good tips. Pachmayr has some good sporting shotgun videos.

Markwell: If you go to Jackson, get in touch. Some of us are going to be hunting just over the border. I'll get the first round.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 00:43:41 (ZULU)

Travis:

Louis Awerbuck, John Farnum and Massad Ayoob have written books I liked on combat shotgunning. search AMAZON.COM

Rod Regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 01:20:35 (ZULU)

I am in no position to offer any advice on scopes. But after thinking about this today and being in the metalcutting bizness,

I have wondered why Premiere doesnt just come out with their own line of scopes. They have inner working knowledge of some of the best scopes in the industry and a loyal following to boot. I'm sure they could deal the financing to tool up for it. And that would pay for itself shortly.

Alan and Duman- what you said. - Leupold is not missing a beat on sales i'm sure.

Still cheaper than S&B or USO.

USO is offering a group buy on the hide to help finance their move into a larger facility to keep up with their production.

All the stuff from the past isnt hurtin today a bit.

And when you see GA George sporting a olive drab SN-3 on his rifle (pics from the SH cup), I'm sure everybody is drooling and going to want one just like that. With that dark brown cami-stock, It looked cool to me!

And lastly, like I said, I know i'm nobody just some humble observations.

JerryC
Cypress, Tx, USA - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 05:16:49 (ZULU)

CDC

If all goes according to plan, I'll be in Jackson from 14 Sept. thru the end of Oct. Hunts are normally 7 days (10 once in a while) so we're out of the hills for 1 1/2 days every 7. Head over to Iaho Falls on occasion but normally are pretty busy between hunts(sleeping). Should be able to hook up sometime in six weeks I'd think.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 12:58:01 (ZULU)

markwell: Let's do it. I.F. is close to my casa or we could take a look at the area north of the Palisades reservoir. I'll be there in September scouting and bowhunting. I'll hit you offline.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 13:07:13 (ZULU)

JerryC...

>"I have wondered why Premiere doesnt just come out with their own line of scopes. They have inner working knowledge of some of the best scopes in the industry and a loyal following to boot. I'm sure they could deal the financing to tool up for it. And that would pay for itself shortly."<

You have no idea how much the cost to "tool up" to make scopes would be - try about 10 to 20 million, and the top end people to run the operation would be $150,000+ a year - high end optical engineers, coating specialist, and on and on and on... plus the patent researchers and patent lawyers.

Plus the cost of labor, medical plans, workmans comp, retirement programs and liability, would mean that they would never get the door open.

Nobody does this any more - you go to a company in the pacific rim and have a meeting with their designers, and they give you a Chinese menu to chose from - "I'll take one objective from column "A", two turrets from column "B", an eye piece from column "C", a finish from.... and on and on.

A year or two, a boat arrives on LA, and you are in business. But Premier Reticles has a reputation among a small group of people, the BIG shooting world (the ones that spend millions of bucks a year) never heard of them.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 13:55:12 (ZULU)

Guys,

On the shotgun thing, I was thinking more along the lines of "shotguns for dummies". I've only owned one before, and I traded it off about a week or 2 later! I need the basics, like, can't you blow up a shotgun w/steel shot if it's not rated for it? Slugs out of a smoothbore? Seriously, I don't know shit about them. I've only shot about 2 boxes of shotgun ammo in my whole life!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 15:10:09 (ZULU)

Well I certainly would not like to tangle with you or your reputation for knowing what you talk about. I am a cnc programmer for a small company down here in Houston. We moved a little over 2 years ago into a new shop we built for expansion reasons. we had 2 large cnc lathes, 6 manual lathes,3 manual mills, and 3 medium cnc mills. In the last 2 years we have purchased 1 large mill, two more (smaller) cnc lathes, a wire edm mch, and 1 very large cnc lathe(14 inch spindle hole x 160 long)! So I may know a little about "tooling up". costs for the lathes that would be perfect to run scope housings, about $150,000 including all associated tooling for them. Mills for scope entrails would be the same basically. I do agree with you on the picking and choosing of glass. I only disagree with you in the terms of overall cost in the run up to production. Our machines pay for themselves in the first year. Some start up guys down here go to places like winchester and get perfectly good used machines and they pay for themselves in only a few job runs. So i'm sure that if they wanted to they could even sub most or all of the work out to smaller shops. I know Badger ordance does. But its a moot point anyways I guess if its not in their interest. It was just a thought like I said cuz I am in the business and can vision them doing that sort of thing.

JerryC
Cypress, Tx, USA - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 18:36:35 (ZULU)

ALAN & 'lito,

Thanks for the information on shotgun magazine do's & don'ts.

Some 25-30 years ago my cousin and I were thinking of getting a

couple of 'Streetsweepers' (like a Thompson on steroids) for family

reunion entertainment. Great family, but the idea fell through. Now

we just race the kids' dirtbikes till someone or something breaks.

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 18:53:16 (ZULU)

SWFA... ???

Any of you guys do business with SWFA?

I have bought two scopes from them, and both had to go beck cuz they were damaged - not from shipping, but from prior handling.

I just sent back the "New" Nikon I mentioned the other day... the objective bell was badly dinged, and the ding was covered up with a black magic marker, so it wasn't a "mistake".

Can anyone recommend a good mail order dealer that has competitive (low) prices and ships "new" scopes.

Pissed me off, cuz I paid shipping both ways for a damaged scope (~$30)

jc...

Doggie bag on the way!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 19:07:05 (ZULU)

Lito,

I've purchased from 'Bear Basin' before.

www.bearbasin.com

Their prices used to be a 'lower end benchmark'. Haven't checked in awhile.

Duman
Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 21:15:59 (ZULU)

Cat Shooter,

I have ordered two scopes from: http://www.bearbasin.com/ If the scope cost more than $250.00 the shipping is free. They have a clearance on several brands of scopes. Both of the scopes, Leupold, I ordered came just like they left Leupold.

HDR
OK, - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 21:17:33 (ZULU)

'lito,

An excellent source is Bruno Shooters Supply

www.brunoshooters.com

Lots of good stuff at competitive prices. They won't send you somebody else's rejects like SWFA does. I've done lots of business with them. They're definitely GTG.

ALAN
Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 22:30:54 (ZULU)

JerryC:

I have a sneaking suspicion from what 'Lito is saying that the metalwork is a minor component of riflescope production. There are a lot of industries that work metal as part or all of their products. Far fewer design and work optical systems, which means the equipment and talent will be much more expensive.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 22:52:57 (ZULU)

This article was pretty good:

Tactical Shotgun Class Notes

http://www.ballisticreview.com/tshotgun.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 22:55:28 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Travis: Chuck Taylor's "The combat shotgun and submachine" is dated but decent. Opinions vary though. FYI

Pat II
Tuesday, March 27, 2007, at 23:52:32 (ZULU)

Nice article Rod, thanks

doug sickels
Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 01:40:36 (ZULU)

You're most welcome, Doug.

I think I found the article from a heads-up on rec.guns.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 03:22:56 (ZULU)

HDR,

You got any shooting matches on your schedules down this way? It's been a while since I had time to shoot but looks like time is gunna come my way. I may shoot a match up on Mineral Wells also looking into shooting in Houston. I know Houston would be a drive for you.

Man I ordered 10K of pistol primers today and 1K of bullets. I found 3K of rifle primers (FED 210M) at a primium price locally. I can not belive how hard it is to find supplies right now. I hope this ends soon.

Dirty Steve.........

DirtySteve
Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 05:14:54 (ZULU)

'lito,

Gracias, mi amigo.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 05:29:39 (ZULU)

Lito

I've ordered scopes from binoculars.com and

theopticzone.com both have prices cheaper than SWFA both have free shipping over 300.00

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 11:23:03 (ZULU)

RE: Texas signs new self-defense by gun law

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070327/pl_nm/texas_deadlyforce_dc

(or click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 14:01:57 (ZULU)

Howdy Yall,

Dirty Steve: Good to hear you are ok! I haven't heard from you in forever! I was going to try to get in touch with you when I went on leave last month. The move to Germany killed all of my contact info, so I couldn't. Did they send you to BAMC?

Well I'm back from yet another worthless Army course. Jeez all of these companies making equipment for the army, and not one of them works with existing systems. Good WTF? On top of that they send this stuff to get "FIELD TESTED" at the world renouned West Point! Yeah, I work with the guys from that place (in fact I am the only off-icer in my company not from there) and they don't impress me much. Who thought that it would be a good idea to let cadets "field test" combat equipment? I took this thingy out with an E7 who was my partner in this course, and we f#ckered it up with in the first 20 min, trying to simulate "Joe" working with it.

Sorry, done with ranting.

Well I guess I'm going to have to hang up my long guns, and pistolas cause I can't own them here, and it doesn't seem like I'm comming back to the land of the big PX any time soon. Looks like I'm going to have to try out archery. Hell I can't even own a damn bb gun here. Now I have to find someone who will let me shoot on their land. I tried an archery range, but I was told it was only for members. They claimed that they didn't even know how to become a member. Oh well, they just didn't want another american out there showing them up, drinking them under the table, and stealing their women.

Well back to the fun stuff... Yeha layouts!!

Mayhem Out!

Mayhem
Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 14:18:21 (ZULU)

Mayhem,

Where you at in Kraut land? The Hiedelberg Rod and Gun has a Range and you can at least keep up with trap shooting or skeet shooting with the rental guns. But that was 20 years ago so things may have changed. We used to be able to own guns but it was not much fun just shoot 100 meters. I trying to get onto a private 300 yard range here. You know how great the Bullet Hole is, so I needed to find a better place. HAHA. I was on a 500 yard range but was too far from the house.

They took me to Wilford Hall. Since I needed help real quick. Great treatment there though.

I have little respect for most WestPointers. I had one try to let a witch hunt hang me. For something he knew about, cause I told him. But he denied all knowledge. When three other NCO's came to my rescue he was advised to not think about a career. My CO at the time was on myside at the time too. He had no knowledge of the incident. But he told the BC that if I said it happened, then it did! I had a second throw my orders for a school in her desk drawer and not let us go(and three other guys orders too). She was slammed by the Batallion Commander who put an LT in charge of the company when it was brought to his attention. It was brought to his attention by a 3 star who was miffed to say the least. I am skeptical of those ring knockers to say the least.

Email is OTW so you have my email address. (OK, That was kicked back)

Guess my rant is off............ HAHA

MK4, What the hell is "retreat" it was mentioned in the article? Guess something us folks don't know or need to know. Haha. As an officer in San Antonio I just want to know, "Did you think the guy was going to kill you if you did not use deadly force?" He says, "yes" and we all go home to our loved ones. We can also shoot folks for Crimminal Mischief during the night. That teaches the little turds not to tag.

Dirty Steve
Mico , Texas, USA - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 16:50:26 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Frank and I have shot some matches at Ft. Wolters. Since Frank lives in Keller, it isn’t much of a drive. We haven’t shot a match this year, as Frank has been busy on business trips. I have been shooting more matches at Red Castle, in Tulsa, than anywhere.

Sorry to hear about your accident. Hope you are about over the soreness. You had been gone so long I was wondering what happened to you.

HDR
OK, - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 17:48:29 (ZULU)

<<<MK4, What the hell is "retreat" it was mentioned in the article?>>>>

Another lawyer term that only a lawyer can define. My definition: To me it means that my 2-4 magazines are empty and I'm obligated to "retreat" to my rifle ;))

I love this part of the article...

"Texas joins several other states including Florida that have or are considering similar laws.

Sympathy for violent offenders and criminals in general runs low in Texas, underscored by its busy death row. The state leads the United States in executions with 388 since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976 by the U.S. Supreme Court.

A conservative political outlook and widespread fondness for hunting also means Texans are a well-armed people capable of defending themselves with deadly force.

It is easy to acquire guns over the counter in Texas and lawful to carry a concealed handgun with a permit."

Heheh.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 18:32:18 (ZULU)

Anyone seen the new movie shooter yet?I thought it was pretty good

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 18:38:20 (ZULU)

I see that the dates for the SniperQuest have been posted. Glad to see that this match is back.

SFC Pete Carpentier JR TXNG
C.C., TX, USA - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 20:17:50 (ZULU)

CDC

sounds like a plan..Heading to drop wife in St Louis tomorrow and then on to the Tulsa gun show; just me and the dog. Never been to that show before; hear it's a doozy!!

New/old Sako 223 from gun show shoots my Dillon loaded bulk varmint ammo into 1/2 inch. Am happy camper!

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 20:38:11 (ZULU)

Scopes:

These guys seem to have reasonable prices:

http://www.opticsplanet.net/riflescopes.html

Duman
Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 20:52:21 (ZULU)

Click my name. "Lito will be working on the "Meow mix" version 5 min after seeing this!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, March 28, 2007, at 20:58:38 (ZULU)

Travis...

I saw one a few years ago (posted it here) where some guys hooked up one of those trap clay pigeon launchers for stray cats in his neighborhood.

Put cat food on it and stayed inside with the string.

The damn thing launched the cat all the way back to the house where it came from - the owners of the cat were not happy.

I loved it!

;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 00:39:02 (ZULU)

The Iranian Ambassador to the UN had just finished giving a speech,

and walked out into the lobby where he met President Bush.

They shook hands, and as they walked the Iranian said, "You know, I

have just one question about what I have seen in America.

President Bush said, "Well, anything I can do to help you, I will."

The Iranian whispered "My son watches this show 'Star Trek' and in it

there is Chekhov who is Russian, Scotty who is Scottish, and Sulu who

is Chinese, but no Arabs. My son is very upset and doesn't understand

why there aren't any Iranians on Star Trek."

President Bush laughed, leaned toward the Iranian ambassador, and

whispered back, "It's because it takes place in the future.

**************************************************

At a French airport... A group of American retired teachers recently

went to France on a tour. Robert Whiting, an elderly gentleman of 83,

was part of the tour group.

At French Customs, he took a few minutes to locate his passport

in his carry-on.

"You have been to France before, monsieur?" the customs

officer asked sarcastically.

Mr. Whiting admitted that he had been to France previously.

"Then you should know enough to have your passport ready."

The American said, "The last time I was here, I didn't have to show it."

"Impossible!" barked the officer "Americans always have to show their

passports on arrival in France."

The American senior gave the Frenchman a long hard look. Then

he quietly explained. "Well, when I came ashore at Omaha Beach on D-Day

in '44 to help liberate this country, I couldn't find any Frenchmen to show

it to."

*************************************************************

A Mexican, an Iraqi, and a redneck girl are in the same bar.

When the Mexican finishes his beer, he throws his glass in the air, pulls

out his pistol, and shoots the glass to pieces. He says, "In Mexico our

glasses are so cheap we don't need to drink with the Same one twice."

The Iraqi, obviously impressed by this, drinks his beer, throws his glass

into the air, pulls out his AK-47, and shoots the glass to pieces. He

says, "In Iraq we have so much sand to make glasses that we don't need to

drink with the same one twice either."

The redneck girl, cool as a cucumber, picks up her beer, and downs it in

one swig, throws the glass into the air, whips out her .45, and shoots the

Mexican and the Iraqi. Catching her glass, setting it on the bar, and

calling for a refill, she says, "In America we have so many illegal

Mexicans and Arabs that we don't have to drink with the same ones twice."

God Bless America

***************************************************************

A dedicated Teamsters union worker was attending a convention in

Las Vegas and decided to check out the local brothels.

When he got to the first one, he asked the Madam,

"Is this a union house?"

"No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."

"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The house gets $80 and the girls get $20," she answered.

Offended at such unfair dealings, the union man stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionized shop. His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded, "Why yes sir, this is a union house. We observe all union rules."

The man asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The girls get $80 and the house gets $20" the madam replied.?

"That's more like it!" the union man said.

He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room,

and pointed to a stunningly attractive blonde.

"I'd like her," he said.

"I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam.

Then she gestured to a 92-year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and according to union rules, she's next."

****************************************************************

A woman was unhappy with the way her laundry was done at the local

Chinese

> Laundry, so she wrote a note and put it in the bag with the next

collection

> of soiled clothes : "USE MORE SOAP ON PANTIES!"

> She got the clean laundry back, and was still dissatisfied with the

results,

> so the following week she enclosed another note: "USE MORE SOAP ON

PANTIES!"

> The Chinese laundryman became very annoyed, and when her clean

laundry

> was delivered, it contained a note from HIM: "I USE PLENTY SOAP ON

> PANTIES!!! USE MORE PAPER ON ASS!!"

***************************************************************

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 04:51:40 (ZULU)

What was the name of the British General Vikkie dispatched to rescue the hostages in Ethopia? Was it Napier?

We should have settled the Mullahs' hash in '79.

There's a time to kick a bully's ass. It's time. Click my name.

The Iranians aren't Arabs; They're Persians. Same as Marathon, Salamis, Thermopalae, Platea and the same guys Alexander then Julian stomped all over the Middle East.

You've got to give them a gentleman's "C" for consistency. History's biggest chumps.

CDC'
Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 14:37:15 (ZULU)

CDC,

Are you referring to the "Abyssinian War" of 1867-1868 where Empereor Theodore of Abyssinia imprisioned some European hostages after a perceived insult by Queen Victoria?

If so, the British General dispatched to free them was Sir Robert Napier. There were about a half-dozen British Generals with the name Napier in the ninteenth century;)

I agree that we should have handled Iran in 1979, but Pres. Jimmuh couldn't even handle his own dick.

ALAN
Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 15:51:31 (ZULU)

Markwell,

If your still on the web email me in regards to the Tulsa gun show. If anyone else is going to the Tulsa gun show, I plan to be there Saturday. Would like to meet with you and put faces to names.

HDR
OK, - Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 16:42:26 (ZULU)

ALAN, CDC',

Good history lessons, please keep them coming. I'm currently reading "Ghost Wars". Excellent read, describing our conflicts in the Middle-East, and how we got where we are. Sometimes it seems the best and the brightest are not the always the ones in charge.

On a masochistic note, Orange County Choppers episode tonight, the company bike is being built. The follow-up episode is 05APR07, with some footage of Paul Sr. nearly dumping the bike. I can't help it, I have to watch.

Duman
Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 16:42:39 (ZULU)

Duman,

Shouldn't it really be "Orange County Posers"?

ALAN
Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 16:47:20 (ZULU)

Duman:

What's your employer's company name since we're getting the OCC tie-in?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 16:57:10 (ZULU)

Travis,

Good ones....

Irainian thing. Where any shots fired by the Brits? If not, Why not? I'm all for attacking those SOB's. WHY? I just don't trust them.

Does anyone remember the famous Jimmy Carter being attacked by a killer rabbit incident? I mean this guy was supposed to be The commander of our Military and was a fraid of a killer rabbit. No wonder we did not settle Irans hash when the moment was right. Here is a link for those that forgot or were to young. http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/killer_rabbit.html

You can also click on my name.

Reality shows are just plain stupid. I'll stick with watching King Of the Hill, Family Guy, Futurama and the Simpson. Humor with out showing morons acting like fools.

Dirty Steve

Dirty Steve
Mico, Texas, USA - Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 18:17:08 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

No shots fired by the Brits, and I can understand why! They were a small detachment out at sea in small unarmed rubber boats with nobody within range to cover them in Iraqi territory that was, up to that time, relatively peaceful waters. All they had were their sidearms. Suddenly, they were surrounded on all sides by well armed Iranian gunboats. They weren't in a position either to fight or flee, and under orders to avoid provoking an "international incident". What else could they do? It was an obviously well planned Iranian trap.

ALAN
Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 20:55:41 (ZULU)

I got this int he e-mails today...

---

Dear Paul,

I'm simply aghast!

In a 2-1 decision in Parker v. District of Columbia, right-wing activist judges on a Federal Appeals Court recently overturned Washington D.C.'s long-standing restrictions on handguns based on their twisted view of the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution while ignoring more than 60 years of precedent — a decision that endangers America's gun laws coast-to-coast.

This case could land before the U.S. Supreme Court within the next 6 months and each month brings a tidal wave of work to fight this terrible decision. Simply put: we need your support today!

Please click here to make a commitment of $5 or more per month. This affordable amount will automatically be charged to your credit card each month — unless you decide to change or cancel your monthly commitment.

Your monthly gift will be a steady source of income that will help us:

Convene well-recognized experts in constitutional law and history to develop the most powerful arguments against the Parker ruling;

Assemble a comprehensive library of books, treatises, articles, court decisions and legal briefs refuting the "individual rights" view of the Second Amendment and make this library available to lawyers nationwide and on the Internet; and

Launch a major public education campaign including full-page ads in major newspapers and a new Brady Gun Law Defense Fund website. We'll also organize lawyers and law professors to write newspaper op-eds and letters to the editor to create a constant drumbeat of criticism of this decision.

This battle — to its very core — is the most important battle we have ever waged. We need your help today — your monthly support — to build a strong Brady Gun Law Defense Fund to save America's gun laws.

---

First off, why am I on their mailing list - "... and keep your enemies closer!"

They are sweating this. But if you read this carefully, you will understand what HGC is all about.

It's not about safety or guns, it's about keeping the money flowing.

At this point, HGC has passed all the laws that started out to pass and thousands more... but what do you do with all those people that work for them, and the directors who have cushy jobs with first class plane tickets to all the media events, and how are the Bradeys going to keep up their luxury life style (and they DO live in luxury!!).

Why the answer is to keep a bunch of scared people on the hook for money, by terrorizing them.

Bunch of assholes!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 22:43:12 (ZULU)

Alan,

Guess hind sight is 20/20 but, I would not send folks poorly armed to inspect a boat for contraband. After all there is a war going on in the area. I woulda started an international incident. I don't start fights but I am willing to finish them. One way or another. yeah I woulda probly lost and got others killed but what the heck. Guess it's the redneck Hillbilly Texan in me. (From West Virgina transplanted to Texas). I pick my fights, "Everyone that comes along!"

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 23:13:28 (ZULU)

"Launch a major public education campaign including full-page ads in major newspapers and a new Brady Gun Law Defense Fund website."

I wonder what this 'public education' would entail.

Duman
Thursday, March 29, 2007, at 23:43:02 (ZULU)

Gerry,

Sorry it took me a while to reply. I work out of town for 4-5 days at at time, and don't have a computer at my work address. Yeah, I flew for Evergreen International Airlines for a few years. I even worked at their headquarters in McMinnville OR in 1986. I was billeted in the Safari Inn Hotel for several weeks. The stories you heard have some truth to them. Evergreen had many contracts with the Feds. Their maintenance facility (Pinal County Airpark) just outside of Tucson AZ is named after a former CIA director. We used to fly our aircraft to that field for maintenance, and I'd see all kinds of alphabet agency types out there for training. If I recall correctly, they flew the Shah from Iran for cancer treatment. Ditto for Marcos from the Philipines. Many other rumors abound. It was a fun outfit to fly for unless crew scheduling, or one of the office weenies in the chief pilot's office was pissed at you. The people I flew with were top notch professionals. Likewise for their mechanics. Did I forget to mention that we had former fighter pilots from RVN, and Iran flying at Evergreen? Great guys. Amazing stories of escape were told by both groups.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Friday, March 30, 2007, at 01:02:58 (ZULU)

ALAN,

Good on you for General Napier! I would have guessed a later date and suggested 'Chinese' Gordon or a young Kitchener. Both were

favorites of Victoria.

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Friday, March 30, 2007, at 01:16:09 (ZULU)

Lito,

Didn't Handgun Control Inc. go broke, and change their name? I also recall Sarah Brady buying a gun for her teenage son, and the media not saying one word about it.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Friday, March 30, 2007, at 01:17:37 (ZULU)

Bill...

They didn't go broke - they did change their name to "Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence".

Same ol' same ol'...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 30, 2007, at 01:51:21 (ZULU)

Alan: Yeah. The Brits had a bunch of incidents somewhat similar to the one in which "Emperor" Theodore took the Brits hostage. They dealt with them by firmer means than the present policy of "quiet diplomacy". The Cawnpore Well atrocity is an example. The diplomacy that followed that is quiet only in the sense that fixed bayonets are quieter than Martinis.

What was that General's name? Mean little Irish bastard. Took on thousands of well dug-in Sikhs h2h.

Western society needs a ball transplant from the Great Beyond.

CDC'
Friday, March 30, 2007, at 14:20:55 (ZULU)

CDC...

"Martinis"

Is that "Martinis" as in gin with an olive, or "Martinis" as in that English single shot riffle that laid waste to many enemies of England ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 30, 2007, at 14:34:05 (ZULU)

CDC,

General Sir Garnet Wolseley?

ALAN
Friday, March 30, 2007, at 17:07:42 (ZULU)

Catshooter,

Martinis as in "Our orders wuz' to break you, and of course we went and did. We sloshed you with Martinis, and it wuz'n't 'ardly fair" Perhaps these orders will be issued again. Iron Maggie might make a good consultant for T. Blair these days. The bullets are about the size of olives, though. Hmmm....

Erik in Kodiak
Friday, March 30, 2007, at 18:18:34 (ZULU)

General Sir Hugh Gough, and it was the Second Anglo-Sikh War. They pissed Vickie off. It didn't pay to piss Vickie off.

CDC'
Friday, March 30, 2007, at 21:01:25 (ZULU)

CDC,

Oh yes, the 24th Regiment (later the South Wales Borderers) and the "unhappy mistake". And to this day no one really knows who ordered the regiment to charge the Sikh guns alone and unsupported and worse, not to fire their muskets (no Martinis then, it was 1849). It was fixed bayonets only. I had forgotten and had to look this one up:))

ALAN
Friday, March 30, 2007, at 21:54:57 (ZULU)

Alan: That was the second battle. Both sides claimed victory. The third was called by the Sikhs "The Battle Of The Guns" because Gough used arty to win an uncontested victory.

Gough liked bayonets. Mean son of a bitch. We could use a hundred million like him.

CDC'
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 01:49:31 (ZULU)

Someone over on Sniper's Hide noticed that Dean's web site has been down for a while, and wondered whether his business has gone tits up.

Personally, I think he was probably heartbroken not to have been selected as a technical advisor for the movie, "Shooter".

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 02:30:46 (ZULU)

re: "Shooter" (2007)

IMDB and NYT lists Patrick Garrity as "technical advisor (military)" for that production. No mention of his background or other qualifications. Anyone have more details?

Just curious.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 02:52:00 (ZULU)

rod regier: Click my name. The guy sounds like the real deal. That doesn't mean much. Sylvester "Sufferin' Succatash" Stalone has acres of competent technical advisors and he stinks dependably.

CDC'
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 05:02:11 (ZULU)

Here's a link to an interview with Garrity.

http://www.ugo.com/ugo/html/article/?id=16981&sectionId=7

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 05:04:40 (ZULU)

I have a difficult time envisioning Marky Mark as Bob the Nailer. He'll always be Dirk Diggler in my eyes ;))

Hunter used John Feamster as tech advisor in the book!

ALAN
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 05:21:57 (ZULU)

Thanks for the link CDC.

I read a couple of things in there that I thought were different. He stated that John Unertl makes all of the Marine Corps scopes and that Schmidt & Bender models were being phased out. I thought the opposite was true. He also said that one must first work as a spotter before being moved up to a sniper. I thought the spotter was the more experienced man who communicates vital information to the sniper. Which is it?

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 05:59:47 (ZULU)

Marc,

Yeah, I caught those two comments also. About the scopes, Garrity got out in 2000 which was way before the Corps changed over from Unertl to S&B. I don't think that he can be blamed for not keeping up to date on these things even though as a tech advisor most of us would like him to be more current.

What he said about the sniper/observer relationship got me thinking. I seem to remember that Gooch posted about this quite a while ago. IIRC, he stated that the observer was usually the more experienced of the two and that the Corps preferred it that way because the more experienced man would be better equipped to call the wind and judge the range then feed that info to the shooter. Perhaps things have changed since then, or maybe they were just done differently in Garrity's unit. Who knows?

Another thought - it's also possible that the interviewer got things mixed up. It wouldn't be the first time, that's for certain!

ALAN
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 06:49:33 (ZULU)

CDC,

I believe it's spelled, "succotash". Could be wrong. Am I the only one that misses Foghorn Leghorn, and Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 06:59:14 (ZULU)

Click my name.

A bit of nostalgia for you older folks....wish I could get one of these for my boy!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 09:43:27 (ZULU)

JC:

That was a great link on Garrity, tks.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 12:08:04 (ZULU)

Marc, Alan: You guys read that more carefully than I did. I'll be more careful.

Travis: I'd watch Foghorn Leghorn now but - unless someone good recommends otherwise - "Shooter" may have to wait for netflix.

CDC'
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 14:27:47 (ZULU)

O. k., I'm an ex-submariner... What is "IIRC?"

Travis: >>> Am I the only one that misses Foghorn Leghorn, and Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote? <<<

Nope I miss them too. My daughter gave me 4 CDs of cartoons for Christmas last year, only had ONE Road Runner and a couple of Foghorn Leghorns on them...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 14:33:58 (ZULU)

Larry:

IIRC and a bunch of other expressions are 'net speak.

IIRC - If I recall correctly.

http://www.pconsulting.com.au/netspeak/ - look up here

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 14:55:44 (ZULU)

OK, call me a fool.... after my last remark about the HK system's treatment of brass...I went and obtained a JLD PTR91 (HK Clone). Couple of questions? the "owner's manual" shows how to disassemble/assemble the piece, but doesn't say anything about lubrication/cleaning?

Are there any particualar do's/dont's concerning lubrication? Where, how much, what kind (oil/grease).

Also, any specific "watch out's" ?

I also have a DSA FAL on order to sort out which one I'll keep (yeah, I do have too much time on my hands).

Should it come to keeping the HK, any recommendations on scope mounts? (I agree with previous comment that the irons sorta suck on the HK, though it looks like drilling 'em out to 1/16" and getting rid of the "dish" on the "eye side" of the hole would help).... specifically a mount that will be low enough to see the irons with the scope removed. I think ARMS makes one IIRC.

Thanks from the "we like global warming" north!

Steve

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USA - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 15:22:39 (ZULU)

Hey all. It's good to be home.

It'll probably take a while to shake the sand out of my stuff but in the between time I'll be pushing through what I've missed for the last (big) bunch of months. The Mrs, kids, their boyfriends, my best friend (dog) and a whole passel of foods & whiskey's. I bet you all had things under control here on the board. Which will mean a ton of stuff here to read back on as well.

Anyway, Hi again and to quote Dorothy........ "there's no place like home."

Mars out!

Semper Primus!

Fernley
NY, USA - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 16:25:04 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I've got a question that's been bugging me for some reason -

When working up loads using a chronograph which figure is more important for long range accuracy - low numbers for standard deviation or extreme spread? And why?

In my convoluted way of thinking it seems to me that a low standard deviation would be more important, but my logic is often flawed;)

CDC and/or 'lito?

ALAN
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 16:34:39 (ZULU)

SteveinButte,

For all things HK, I recommend www.hkpro.com. There is a wealth of information on the care and feeding of HKs. You might be able to Google some online docs as well.

Duman
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 17:49:17 (ZULU)

I would think low standard deviation would be more important. Extreme spread will increase dramatically with an outlier (f-ed up a round or two). Standard deviation tells you the amount of variance over the course of as many rounds as you tested -this is less affected by outliers.

LTChip
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 18:00:14 (ZULU)

Alan: click on my name for a link to an article about the use - and misuse - of chronograph data, including the relative importance of SD and ES data.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 18:30:31 (ZULU)

Welcome home Fernley. Thank you for all you've done.

doug sickels
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 19:21:25 (ZULU)

Doug you are welcome. It is genuinely my honor to have been able to serve. Third time is a charm though and have no intentions of nor fore see another deployment. Although forever I'll want to go back.

Mars Out!

Semper Primus!

edfernley
Oneonta, NY, - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 19:30:39 (ZULU)

Mars,

Welcome Home. A hardy Thanks for the job you do. But be safe. So many folks have come back and went a bit crazy, ending up killing themseves. By crazy I mean going out and buying a crotch rocket and deciding they can ride like a GP rider. Then finding out they can't the instant before they splatter themselves. Judging by your post, your age has you out of those, "I'm invincible years". But damn those years were great, Weren't they??? Ha Ha...

Dirty Steve.............

Dirty Steve
Mico , Texas, USA - Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 20:25:32 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thank you very much for the link. It makes perfect sense, and explains it in a way that the reader doesn't have to be a statistician to understand. I appreciate it.

Mars, welcome back!

Dirty Steve,

All this discouraging talk just when a mint Hyabusa came up locally for sale real cheap :(

ALAN
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 21:05:57 (ZULU)

Alan: Standard deviation is the best measure of variability. Range (extreme spread) discards most of your information.

CDC'
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 21:22:01 (ZULU)

CDC, LTChip -

I figured that SD was more meaningful than ES in this application, but needed to verify that before putting my foot in my mouth. Thanks!

New Scope Country -

I just saw a blurb about Bushnells new Tactical Elite 4200 6-24x50mm variable scope. 30mm tube for more adjustment range, side focus parallax adjustment, and target turrets that look just like my old favorite the B&L Tac10 Elite 4000!! Street price will be in the $560. range. If it turns out to be anywhere near its potential I want one!

Only problem that I can see already is that it has one of those "Euro" reticle adjustment rings on the eyepiece. I don't think that 'lito will like that ;))

ALAN
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 21:43:35 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Steve: I bought a PTR 91 about a year and a half ago. I've put a little less than a thousand rounds through it and have been pretty happy with it so far. I agree with you on the drum style sights.

I use militec for lube, seems to work ok, although I think any good lube would work. I put a drop on the locking rollers and keep a light coat on every part on the bolt with metal to metal contact. Occasionally, I will very lightly lube the trigger assembly. DON'T EVER TRY TO DISASSEMBLE THE TRIGGER ASSEMBLY. It has been my experience/obervation that G-3s have a tendency to bind up in very sandy enviroments, due to the manufacturing tolerances are very close/tight. I would guess it would be the same with the PTR series.

Duman: Thanks for the Hkpro link. I am going to check it out.

MarcS and Alan: At the risk of starting an interservice p*****g contest, here is my understanding of how the spotter/shooter relationship is regarded by the US Army and the USMC. The Army does feel the more experienced of the pair should be the spotter in order to read conditions and make the appropriate calls/correction for the shooter, who simply applies his "dope" and engages the target. I am not a marine scout sniper and have never discussed this particular issue with any I have met, but I have read from more than one source the they beleive the more experienced shooter is pulling the trigger.

I have a sneaking suspision that there must be one or more scout snipers that peruse the roster, so I am sure one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children can confirm or deny this. Also, I have been out of the military for close to ten years so if what is above has changed, somebody please correct me.

FWIW

Pat II
Saturday, March 31, 2007, at 22:08:10 (ZULU)

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