Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 00:08:50 (ZULU)

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 00:17:40 (ZULU)

Please feel free to use/change any or all that applies to you.

Dear Dell,

I just purchased a Dimension 8200, your invoice number xxxxxxxxx.

This will be the last purchase I make from your company.

It has come to my attention through you dealing with Mr. Jack Weigand, that you are a supporter of Handgun Control Inc.  

As a law abiding citizen and firearm owner, I cannot support a company that is opposed to the rights this Country is founded upon, even under the guise of “National Security”.  

Please know there are hundreds of thousands of gun owners dedicating their time to communicate your support of “Gun Control” and re-evaluating our purchasing habits.  I hope you reconsider your position and communicate it publicly.

Yours truly,

Greg Ghironzi

Greg Ghironzi <gregg@nbsgfg.com>
- Friday, March 1, 2002, at 00:42:31 (ZULU)

And yes I am irritable working 18 hour days to keep up with business.

Rant off.

For the Guy who found the 5R Remington, buy it. these are not common and maybe even rare.  I have one and don't shoot it much, but these are the M24 barrels that the Military got.  Too bad they still are not made that way.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Michigan, United States of America - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 01:11:12 (ZULU)

I was about to order a new Dell but the deal is off. I work for a fortune 500 company where I have some influence with the company. We buy Dells by the hundreds, but I will do what ever I can to put a stop to it.

Tom B.

"nice shot"  

Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 02:20:45 (ZULU)

   You home or pro gunplumbers, when bedding an action, do you bed the floorplate as well? I just finished fitting a DDRoss unit to my 700p. Due to operator error there are some slight blemmishes in the stock and it could use a bedding job in the floorplate area to fill in the imperfections. I was wondering if the floorplate had to ride on the aluminum pillars or if I could bed it like the reciever.    

   Also, this is supposed to be a "flush mount system" but when the swing open drop plate is flush, the mount flanges are 1/16-1/8 below the stock surface. Do I have to hog out the stock surface or what? I am not afraid of the file so tell me straight.

   Hopefully the 700 Policenstein will be ready before my next shoot in June. Still need to finnish the reciever/barrel, mount the base, lap the rings and mount my scope. With any luck it will be a competent police/military rifle. Maybe I'll get to come down and shoot with some of you Hogs this summer.

    Anyways, thanks to you guys that have contributed and i'll keep you posted on the outcome.(Maybe I'll post some pics when she's finnished)

  Thanks again, SGT Jake

Jake P <para13bp@gsinet.net>
New Hampshire, USA "ALL THE WAY" - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 02:22:18 (ZULU)

Looks like the Dell Computer crisis is off and running. They deserve to get their collective butts kicked. Seems like every time some mealy mouthed executive give us an "explanation" it just doesn't wash. Do these folks really think we are so mentally challenged? If that's the case I don't want to do business with them anyway.

Perhaps 'Lito said it best...

On another note, my Harrel's Culver style powder thrower just arrived this afternoon. This thing oozes quality! We'll soon know how consistent it's thrown charges are against a batch I hand weighed...I'm betting on the thrower. That will save a bunch of time, to boot! Will report back on this one...

The Remington 30S-Express project: Took the wood and metal to Steve Nelson, today, to see about rust blueing and how I could best restore the wood. Steve whistled and said don't re-blue it's in magnificent shape for a 70+ year old rifle. He also said to just clean the stock and re-oil lightly.

Looking around we found an article by Ken Waters, in the 1977 March-April edition of Rifle Magazine on the Remington M30 and it's variants. Seems '06 was most common, with the .25, .30, .32, and .35 Remingtons also being chambered. These were later pulled from the line and it is reputed that the "7 X 57, 7.65, and 8MM Mausers where chambered". Although he added, he couldn't verify that as he has NEVER seen one in those calibers! Got news Ken...you have NOW!

It's amazing how well this rifle cleaned up. Will finish the stock in the next week or two, lubricate, and re-assemble. Can't wait to give it a test run at the range!

Sunday we are getting together for ammo testing, shooting, and a general good time with the lads. Doesn't get any better does it?

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, US of A - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 02:22:23 (ZULU)

What are my choices for replacing a weak Remington 700 firing pin spring? Maybe something a little heavier?

Peter Lincoln...

I had ears like that when I was but a wee lad. Some used to tell me that I looked like "a cab goin' down the road with both doors open". I got your email about the Brit scope. I will see if I can draw the reticle and email it to you.

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 02:30:07 (ZULU)

Of all places to have its HQ and pull this........Texans no likey!!

This one included..........

Adam

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, Md., USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 03:11:14 (ZULU)

Here, Here on the Del thing.

You have a great way of putting things in perspective.

urbanteacher

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Baltimore, - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 03:23:10 (ZULU)

Tim,  Most use the 28 pound Wolff spring to replace the 24 pound factory spring.  Easy to do.  

Crap!  I bought a new Dell about 4 months ago.  Machine is OK but that Word/XP thing suxs.

Be safe.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 03:26:37 (ZULU)

I will post any response that I receive from them.

Dudes (and Dudettes), I ain't gettin' a Dell 'til this is cleared up.

"Gentlemen,

After hearing of this company's anti-firearm policies, I will not be replacing my 5-year-old Gateway with your product, as I was intending. (Ref: Jack Weigand, President, American Pistolsmiths Guild Inc.)

I sell my product primarily to the Law Enforcement and Military markets, and wholeheartedly support these brave people.

This is a large and very close-knit community.

To treat Mr. Weigand as you have is an outrage, and you owe the entire shooting community a public apology.

If you fail to do so, it will result in the loss of this sale. Rest assured that my answers to any future questions asked of me, regarding my personal opinion as to which PC to buy, will reflect my evaluation of how your firm addresses this issue.

I look forward to receiving a response from your firm.

Sincerely,

Bruce N. Robinson"

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 03:47:33 (ZULU)

 I already have an AR-10 wearing a Lothar barrel, and even have one of the new Eagle 10s that shoots like it means it,despite the cost savings over a T. GREAT RIFLE FOR THE MONEY GUYS!!!!!!

 Thanks to all of you gents that took the time to communicate VIA the board and E-mail on my inquiry.

 I shall take the advice of one of the more outspoken gassers(not really outspoken anymore, but still around never the less) and send her off to Geoff (the riffle that is, not the woman) unless Geoff is willing to work a trade that is!! HA, stick that in your new pair of shoes and smoke it girlie.

 You guys are great.

 Chuck

Chuck <Ballsack34@aol.com>
lots of corn here, Ohio, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 03:57:37 (ZULU)

I have searched online and found no connection between Dell Computer and Handgun Control, Inc. (bradycampaign.org).  If there is one, would someone please point it out?

Does Dell Computer have a Matching Gift Program for HCI?  Perhaps Tyson could speak to that?  Is Michael Dell a known contributor to HCI?

Some specifics would be appreciated.

Also, Dell is a big organization.  Having managed a plant in a different business and dealt daily with customer service issues, the kind of innocent screwups we had were mind-boggling.  Post 9/11, many businesses and government organizations have implemented a lot of stupid, PR-related screens that just waste money.  How about the stories of grandmas, Medal of Honor winners, and good-looking women singled out for "special screening" at airport checkpoints?

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 05:02:09 (ZULU)

Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 05:26:02 (ZULU)

.

..

the dell issue....i figured a while ago i wasn't gonna order from dell..the made in mexico stuff i saw on the box kinda helped finish that decision real quick.

.

.

Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
USA, - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 05:48:52 (ZULU)

What Lito says!

The Police Dept. where I work is in the process of getting laptops for the patrol cars. I happen to make the recommendations on what type to get. Dude, We WON'T be getting Dell's!

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 06:03:30 (ZULU)

Ref Dell.   If inclined so, check out  

http://www.computer-adventure.com

Real nice folks who build what you want.  Have been doing business with them for 10 years or so now. Bought numerous systems for home & business applications as well as for Gov't use. Small local shop and they keep up on all the new & BEST equipment. Not just some package deal. They make suggestions based on what works & what you need and/or want. Best danged prices I've ever seen too.

The owner is "gun friendly" and buys/sells regularly as a member of Cowboy Action Shooter stuff. Very good people.

Just a friendly suggestion.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 06:56:08 (ZULU)

Bed the floor plate like you would the action.  If the plate will sit in the stock in the right position (and level to the surface) by itself, just do it... but if it's not even with the surface when dropped in, then it will have to be leveled first... you can use little bits (blobs) of epoxie at each end... let them harden, then cut them down til the floorplate is flush, then bed the whole thing.  Don't forget the clay, and release agent :)))

You don' need no steeenkin' aluminum pillars!!

-

Sir Wesley... I've had an eye on them Culvers for a while.  I have 3 of the Redding "Match" measures (small, 30BR medium, and large), but they ain't got no class.  Compare it to your old measure and let us know... I need more stuff ;))

-

William M... here's the thing I got from one of the news services I subscribe to...

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'm just now starting to get feedback from the Dell cancelation of the Weigand Combat Handguns, Inc. order and noticed that Dell computers is listed as a beneficiary at the below link.  I'm not sure who at Dell (if any) has authorized this?

Regards,  Matt Gaylor

<http://www.progressivefunds.com/hci/>

Raise money for Handgun Control, Inc. everytime you shop online

Handgun Control, Inc.

Online Shopping Mall

Be sure to bookmark the Handgun Control, Inc. Online Shopping Mall as one of your favorites.  Connections to commercial websites must be made immediately from this links page for Handgun Control, Inc. to receive its share!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Wm... Go look for yourself.

-

Tyson...  by now you get the picture here.  And Sniper Country has about 2,000 to 3,000 lurkers A DAY, and many are law enforcement, and business men (and women)... and this same stuff is being repeated on thousands of shooting websites all over the internet... even on my favorite airgun (CatGun ;) website... my mail box is over flowing with "DELL" stuff.

So, if you care about your employer's reputation, and your profit sharing plan, here's what you gotta do.

Contact Mike Dell, and tell him you're a DELL employee and an active shooter and gun owner (or are you a "closet gun person" at DELL?)... if DELL isn't anti-gun, this should be "no problemo", right?... and tell Mike that this is really big, and they need to do something fast to put out this fire.

1 - Take out a Full page in the Wall Street Journal stating that this was an error, and their full support of the second ammendment rights of U.S. citizens.

2 - Lacking that, release to the internet, the same statement of company support for the Second ammendment, and make a BIG donation to some of the shooting sports, and shooting education programs.

3 - Cut ties to HCI.

4 - Make a sales referal deal with the NRA website, and take out a FULL PAGE in the both NRA publications, plus a full page in the major gun rags, with an appology, and stating DELL's full support for the second ammendment to the U.S. Constitution, and a citizen's right to keep and bare arms.

5 - And last... Fire the asshole that did this, as proof that he didn't have the company's support or approval to kill that order.

Not only would this be the RIGHT THING to do... but it would be the SMART THING to do... the pro-gun folks in this country out number the anti-gun people about 50 to 1... and if you doubt that, just ask Al Gore an' he'll 'splain it to you!

Tyson... don't call US fanatics... we're not fanatics... we're pissed.  We've been dumped on by the PC left, and used for political advantage by the same snobby snots, for more years that you probably have been in this life.  And for this crap, don't ask US to forgive your company, and dig into our jeans to give you our money.

At a time when computer sales are soft, and IT hardware companies aren't doing that well and scrambling, you need to fight over the crumbs, and the shooting market ain't no crumb... we're damn big.  There are about 100,000,000 gun owners in the USA, that own about 600,000,000 guns.

We run businesses, have money, and spend it... By Al Gore's own admission, WE (the gun owners) broke the 2000 elections for Bush... if we are big enough to do that, we can sure let some of the air out of the tyres on Mike Dell's new Lexus...

... and, of course, there is always that moo-cow computer company (and about 30 others), that would just LOVE to take our money.

Lemme know (and see) what YOU and YOUR company do to make this mess right, Dude!

-

I have been wantin' two Anschutz riffles for a while... a Running Boar, and a Biathlon Fortner... I was heart broke to find out the the Running Bore riffle was disco'ed, cuz there is nothing else like it.

Found a NEW one in the box, down in Joisey, and put a deposit on it... it's back to mac & cheese for two months, but I'm feeling more betterer now...

"DUDE, your getting an Anschutz!"  ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 10:11:33 (ZULU)

Seriously: Catman has it nailed down. If it's a BS mistake it can be fixed. But ignoring it "is like unforgivable Duuuude "! Let's see maybe we can get a billboard with the dude and Rosie, lighting up a cigarette for Sara Brady   in the K-mart Parking lot while sitting in a Jeep with their Dell Laptops making plans for rescuing deer from the evil fanatic Snipers and terrorist gunsmiths!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 14:38:13 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide... now located in "Cat-Man-Du", at the base of "Little MT. Everest", - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 14:45:20 (ZULU)

I dropped 20 charges of Varget and measured it on my scale (a blue Dillon electronic scale).  I do question the accuracy of these scales to some degree.  There are much better scales, but the caveat is $$.  Scales we use in my line of work are accurate and repeatable but I can pay my mortgage and car payment for a year on what they cost.  So one does have to take that into account.

So back to the matter at hand….

The statistics for the 20 charges are below: all units are grains

AVG 44.59

SD 0.120961

Min 44.4

Max 44.8

Range 0.4

3*SD 0.362883

I am no statistician, and don’t know enough about 6 sigma to really know if I am effectively using the 3x std deviation data point.  But it looks like it works pretty well in this case as the range and the 3*sd are the same to the accuracy of the scale (it shows one decimal place).

CDC….maybe you can expand on this a little bit.

The BR crowd says you gotta operate the handle consistently (okay) and not bump it against the stops at the top or the bottom of the stroke (okay).  I dropped all these real careful like and even tried to have 4 mental counts to try to make sure the ‘fill time’ is as consistent as possible for each stroke.  Even my simple knuckle draggin self can do that.

So Lito…I don’t think it may be any better than a Redding measure.

This data may be meaningless since I have not done the same on a 550, (maybe this weekend).  

Don't get me wrong...The ammo that is charged using the Harrels measure shoots great.  Half MOA all day long when I do my job.  So +/-0.2gr is no big deal in my mind.  I supposed all I am saying is a Redding Dillon RCBS whatever powder measure may be just as good as the high speed model.

Has anyone else done anything like this??  It would be great to compare notes.  It would really be great to hear from those who have a Promethius measure.

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
Pissin off BR shooters everywhere, Upstate, SC, US of A - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 15:52:51 (ZULU)

2711 avg

7 sd

2699 min

2718 max

19 es

175gr SMK's with 44.6gr Varget in FL sized Lapoooie cases with WLR primer

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
Upstate, sc, US of A - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 16:00:16 (ZULU)

I am finished testing the Springfield 1911 TRP Operator.  Man this pistol rocks. 14 shot groups under 2" at 25 yards from a sand bag rest.  Had to get a 100 rounds through it just to brake it in. I love the light rail attrachment and fit and finish are very good.  Great entry weapon.  Finally someone made a pistol with a light rail system that is bullet proof.

Rick B., I have finished working with the 1/2moa per click 45 moa per turn, with front onjective parallex adjustment scope.  It is fantastic. I gave them all my data and the knobs are being laser etched as we speak.  I am to test a side parallex version in one to two weeks. The side parallex version will have a smaller overall objective size but same 44mm lense. I am hoping to have both sent to you guys in three weeks.  If you are in a hurry email me and I will have the front adjustable one sent right away.  I did BDC's in both yards and meters for you guys.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 16:07:26 (ZULU)

-

UnDude... good to see yo' rattlin' ass back here!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 16:50:46 (ZULU)

Just found what 'lito was talking about, a link from progressivefunds.com Handgun Control shopping mall to Dell, with a kickback for clicks/sales.  I had looked at this site previously, but no links were visible.  I did not understand what he/others were talking about.

For some reason, the links were not visible when viewed with my main computer.  But they ARE visible using a backup computer in the office.  Strange.  I work on a computer all day, and have never seen this before.  I wonder if there is some technology that hides links if certain cookies (like NRA) or web favorites are present in your computer/browser.  Or is this just paranoid?

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 17:22:19 (ZULU)

He heeeee !

Later, homeys

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, March 1, 2002, at 17:26:50 (ZULU)

Brian... now you quit it.  Between 'yote Bate and you, I can get my keyboard clean.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 18:49:37 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 19:18:05 (ZULU)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 20:07:48 (ZULU)

Undude......you wouldn't really suggest a pistol for an entry weapon would you???  I'm just a simple civilian but I thought: "A pistol is what you use to fight your way to a rifle." Clint Smith

Ref: LTR SAGA

I've got it back from Big Green.  I quote the repair document here from the Technician's Comments, "Sent rifle to our gallery for target, shot within factory specs. NOTE - Factory "Max" spec for this model is 1.5" five shot group at 100 yds."  "NO FAULT FOUND AT BENCH"  Somewhere it should read, "Caveat Emptor......."

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 20:41:14 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 21:19:33 (ZULU)

I just unpacked the rifle and noticed the crown has bare metal showing where there was only black before.  Me thinks the crown has been retouched....mmmmmmm.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 21:32:30 (ZULU)

nuff said...."dudes"

you know who <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 22:05:28 (ZULU)

To Our Valued Customers and Friends:

U.S. export laws restrict the sale of technology to terrorists and to people in countries that support terrorism. These laws also prohibit computer sales to people who will use the technology in developing biological or nuclear weapons. Dell strictly complies with our country's export laws in order to ensure the safety of our customers and citizens around the world. When there is reasonable cause for concern, we carefully review customer orders for prohibited destinations and activities. When additional follow-up on an order is required, our sales representatives ask our customers four basic questions:

1. Who is the end-user?

2. Where will the product be used?

3. What will the product be used for?

4. What type of business or industry is involved?

The answers to these questions, like all customer information we gather, are confidential and are not shared outside of Dell. We recently received an order from Mr. Jack Weigand, whose company name, "Weigand's Combat Handguns Inc." included the word "combat." We

cancelled the order to give us enough time to follow up with the customer and be assured that the sale would be in compliance with U.S. export law.  However, we failed to contact Mr. Weigand, and as a result, we did not deliver the order as promised, and the customer did not know why. Once we discovered our error, we apologized to Mr. Weigand for this misunderstanding, as well as the inconvenience caused by the delay. This is not the service standard that we hold ourselves to at Dell.

We at Dell feel a strong obligation to uphold our federal law, but we have just as strong an obligation to be responsive to the needs of all our customers. We want to assure you that the company does not discriminate against any business, regardless of the products or services they sell, nor do we discriminate against individual consumers. We do, however, sometimes make mistakes - as we did in this case.

Thank you for your support.

Sincerely,

Dell Computer Corporation

NOT CUTTING IT FOR ME.

GG - OUT

greg ghironzi <gregg@nbsgfg.com>
- Friday, March 1, 2002, at 22:12:11 (ZULU)

I love em! I doubt you would find much difference at Microsoft or any other modern company of great size. It SUCKS!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 22:43:09 (ZULU)

SOME SPECTACULAR WORDSMITHING BY THE LEGAL DEPT.

Dear Valued Customers and Friends:

We appreciate the opportunity to clarify the facts regarding a customer issue reported in the media and Dell's position on political or social issues that many of you care deeply about.

Regarding Handgun Rights/Handgun Control....

Dell is a publicly-traded, customer-focused company with customers,

shareholders and employees on both sides of many public, social and

political issues. Our place is to serve our customers rather than to endorse or support one position over another in public debates outside the scope of our industry. We do not discriminate against any business, regardless of the products or services they sell, nor do we discriminate against individual customers. We do, however, respect the right of any organization or individual to have their own point of view. We follow all laws, rules and regulations.  

Regarding allegations that Dell supports Handgun Control organizations

through the Dell Affiliates program...

Dell as a company remains neutral on handgun rights and handgun control. Dell customers can support causes and organizations, if they choose, through Dell's affiliates program and charitable websites such as igive.com and progressivefunds.com. These sites feature links to Dell's website. Dell's affiliates program provides a way for customers to support the cause or organization of their choice through their Dell purchases. Affiliate participants, such as igive.com and progressivefunds.com, include organizations and causes on different sides of nearly every social issue. Some of the organizations participating through Dell affiliates such as igive.com and progressivefunds.com., promote handgun rights, others promote handgun control. Handgun Control Inc. (HCI) has been reported as one organization that participates in this program. Others including The Gun Owners Foundation and the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners Foundation, Inc. also participate through Dell affiliate igive.com.  The only organizations prohibited from participating in Dell's affiliates program are those that promote sexually explicit material; promote violence; promote discrimination based on race, sex, religion, nationality,disability, sexual orientation or age; or promote illegal activities.

Regarding the assertion that Dell cancelled Mr. Jack Weigand's order for a notebook computer because of his firearm association...

We made a mistake. Mr. Weigand's order was improperly cancelled because we did not gather the additional information required by U.S. law to process his order. Dell flagged Mr. Weigand's order (initiated under his company name Weigand's Combat Firearms) for additional follow-up (and then we failed to do so) because of the word "combat" in his company name. This internal control is in place to ensure that a domestic purchase is not redirected to an end user for a prohibited use (such as the creation and development of weapons of mass destruction) or to a country that has been restricted from receiving U.S. technology exports (such as Libya, Syria, Iran and Iraq).  This due diligence is required by U.S. law. We also review orders for words

such as "nuclear," "missile," and "plutonium." Dell's process excludes

reviews for "guns" or "firearms." The mistake was ours because we failed to follow our process. We failed to call Mr. Weigand for information that would have satisfied legal requirements and ultimately would have resulted in completion of Mr.Weigand's transaction. We have apologized for this mistake directly to Mr.

Weigand. We have tried to make it right with our customer by giving him a free computer for his trouble and inconvenience.

Dell has many customers and employees who are handgun owners and

enthusiasts. We know that gun owners and advocates, such as Mr. Weigand, are law abiding Americans, and as such, can understand and appreciate our efforts to comply with American export laws, while serving all customers. We have heard from many of you over the last few days, and we appreciate the opportunity to speak with you directly about these issues. Your relationships with us, and your feedback about our products and services are crucial to our success.

Sincerely,

Tom Green

Senior Vice President,

Law and Administration

Dell Computer Corporation

SORRY FOR THE BANDWITH, I TRIED TO CLEAN UP THE HARD RETURNS.

THERE'S THE POSITION FROM DELL,JUST DON'T STEP IN IT, YOUR DOG MAY TAKE OFFENSE.

YA'LL DECIDE HOW BAAD TO MAKE IT HURT.

GG - OUT

greg ghironzi <gregg@nbsgfg.com>
- Friday, March 1, 2002, at 22:57:26 (ZULU)

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, March 1, 2002, at 23:03:38 (ZULU)

I want to know if it is only me but, according to everything that I have read about the Dell issue revolves around in thier words, "This internal control is in place to ensure that a domestic purchase is not redirected to an end user for a prohibited use (such as the creation and development of weapons of mass destruction) or to a country that has been restricted from receiving U.S. technology exports (such as Libya, Syria, Iran and Iraq).  This due diligence is required by U.S. law."  Maybe they thought that Mountaintop Penn. wasn't really in the U.S., Oh! I forgot the zip code would have told them that.

So my question is, have any of you ever been asked any questions about how you intend to use your computer or are you intending to ship it to any known terrorist organizations before they sold it to you?  Don't bother to answer I already know the answer....

Does anyone know what the date is that we have to have our assault computers registered by or face prosecution?

What ever happened to common sense?

Rant off but still venting....

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 01:38:30 (ZULU)

Just down from the shop. Giving the new Harrel's Culver measure a try out. First impression is VERY positive. Incredibly smooth operation and shearing of powder granules. If powder levels in the case are an indicator these should be very uniform. Testing for velocity spread and accuracy on Sunday. Will report back.

Dell...I can think of another four letter work that you step in that's probably descriptive of their organization...

Corporate Legal V.P.'s response was "wordy" and meant to placate everyone. Just ticked me off "major". Did you pick up on the thread about protecting the organization from misuse of their product? If they are not selling it overseas, to "Combat" oriented licensed dealers,etc. to protect themselves how do they justify that the units can be used for pornography. Guess that's OK, buy their standards.

Hope they get the same treatment and end result that K-Mart/Rosie got...

Semper Fi,

Wes

(Ticked off in Blodgett)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, US of A - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 04:49:17 (ZULU)

That crap about violating export laws aint a damn good defense. His address is in the US aint out side CONUS. So how could it violate an export law sending him a computer. The person is evil not the method of attack but you all know that. Called my wife told her she has a left wing computer. She told everyone at work about Dell. One guy was going to buy a new one this weekend. It aint gunna be a Dell now.

I deicded to buy a computer today for my son. Went to the best possible place to ensure the proffits went to a good cause. I bought it at the Lackland AFB BX. It was a Compaq.

I should get my rifle tomarrow at 1500hrs local time can not wait.

Dirty Steve, OUT

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
I'm getting payback..San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 06:47:15 (ZULU)

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
I'm getting payback..San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 06:47:19 (ZULU)

Gents,

Have had several requests for Geoff. Corns contact information. For those that don't know Geoff. He's the gent that built Bravo's M25 and my own. TOP NOTCH work and they shoot wonderfully. I highly recommend him for these. We are lucky to have a number of skilled 'smith's associated with the list.

Geoff's contact info is:

Match Armorer's Shop

Attn: Geoff. Corn

RR#3, Box 66-A

Oakland City, IN 47660

812-749-6416

Am considering shooting Hi-Power, again. It's been a decade. I have a pre-ban Colt AR that I would use as a basis for a service rifle. At 50, my eyes are going, a bit. Would I be better off shooting a space gun instead of service rifle? I always shot extremely well with the M-16E2 the Marines used and the A1, for that matter.

Suggestions/recommendations solicited...

Gunsmith recommendations? George Gardner, Geoff. Corn, Jerry Rice, or...?

All for now...time to go snuggle with mama.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, US of A - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 07:20:42 (ZULU)

Borrow a Match prepped AR service rifle and take a peek through the sights. You want to try one with a rear aperature between .040" and .046". If you don't have too much in the way of "cobwebs" in the rear as you look through and you can focus on the front sight you could go for a service rifle configuration. BOB JONES makes some lens inserts for the rear sight if you need to tune a little. Otherwise I would sy go with a space gun. You can fit the sucker to you instead of the other way around, and the UnDude sling is legal for match rifle. Besides, most high power guys shoot the service rifle until they either can't see anymore or go distinguished & Pres 100. I plan to build one in the near future to "play with in the useless part of the seson after Perry".

As for AR smiths.....give John Holliger or Bill Wylde a call:

Mr. Wylde posts on here from time to time, and John's contact info is as follows:

John Holliger

White Oak Precision

103 W.Lee st

PO box 71

Carlock, Il61725

(309)376-2056

Jeholliger@cs.com

There are other well know AR gurus out there but it's too damn late for me to think of names right now.

BTW- I am playing with an AR service rifle set up to shoot 90 grain vld's. Those suckers are a trip!

Steve-hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Sleepless , IN South west PA, - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 08:46:18 (ZULU)

I posted at an earlier date about receiving my new drag bag from Desert Specialties and several people asked for pictures.  I now have pictures.  If you are intrested in seeing them please E-mail me with the heading drag bag and I will send them to you.  I have not figured out how to make a hyperlink work on this site or I would have done it the other way.

Out.

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 08:56:20 (ZULU)

 No offence intended on the entry weapon thing.  By the way, is the SOP to transition to the handgun when the primary weapon runs dry or only in the event of a stoppage?  I imagine a door kicker would practice rapid reloading his primary weapon until it was second nature.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 09:58:45 (ZULU)

Seuss <samiam@netrax.net>
Lovely, PA, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 12:52:16 (ZULU)

-All charges approx 46 gr Varget, 20 charges per device tested.

-All charges weighed on Denver Instruments TR-203 to 0.01 gr.

Prometheus: SD=.024  max=46.04  min=45.95

Uniflow:    SD= .143 max=46.19  min=45.69 (modified by Prometheus)

Harrell:    SD=.265  max=44.87  min=43.91 (small BR Harrell)

               Note-rapped handle firmly for best results.

Belding&Mull SD=.154 max=46.02  min=45.41

The upper echelons of the Palma world like to see charges vary no more than +/- 0.05 gr....they do see points lost otherwise. One kernal of Varget weighs around 0.02 gr, so they like +/- 2 kernals of Varget...hence the Prometheus. It is my understanding that Prometheus will be used to load for the upcoming Palma match, and also for the Jr. Palma team. Must be some logic here somewhere.

brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
TX, - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 15:54:37 (ZULU)

Our entry guys typically go MP5 or 11.5" M4 as primary weapon. Should they shoot dry or malfunction during dynamic situation, they drop primary weapon to sling & immediately go handgun. (Good "Oh Sh*t" drills).  "Transition to second weapon always beats a reload/fubar fix." Should the primary go fubar during non-dynamic stage, they drop to a knee, have team cover & reload/fix or determine otherwise.

In some close quarter situations such as mobile homes, narrow halls, small rooms, etc., they may bungee the slung primary & proceed handgun purposely.

Just had a good training Thurs night. Mock situation: Despondent man w/gun holed up in a local church.  Yep, church. One of our guy's father is a pastor & he graciously allowed/offered his facility for training.  Of course, it is 2 blocks away from a Post office, so that played into situation. 25 degrees, after dark, 3 sniper/observer teams deployed - humped 1/4 to 1/2 mile in to final observation/rifle cover position. Intel gathering period, negotiators on the phone getting hung up on, entry guys all sitting in approach vehicles ready to pounce. Of course, in 4 hours, no one claimed cold. Warmup rotation was being scheduled anyway. Much sit, watch, report & wait.

Murphy(the boss) showed up, threw a wrench into the works (realism) and entry was ordered. No gas or bangs allowed(obvious reason) & entry guys had to do what would otherwise not be done. Suspect mock killed & 2 entry guys hit. This part for purposes of finding what does/doesn't/might work. A way to test/determine mods to SOP's. Dang, those ceiling fold down attic ladders are a b*tch.

Good lessons learned. Newer guys find out why we suggest what cold weather gear we do. Entry team leader learns a little humility. he he.

out

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 16:41:30 (ZULU)

Thats where the C2 would come in handy if you could have used it.

I know nothing of Entry work but have been studying it for a while just out of interst. And it is one interesting subject and makes we civies have a great respect for Peole on the SWAT teams.  If you wanna's like me wanna check that out it's very chilling subject.

Blackwater and Sierra have a computer game out called SWAT 3. Thank goodness its just a game. I see some rosterfarians names on the consultant list for it. There's a disk with it on tactics by Blackwater and LA SWAT team people. Lots of fun when the wind's up.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 18:17:01 (ZULU)

Found a thread over on AR15 youse might be interested in.  Guy snapped the clamp in a Badger scope ring while installing it, and was wondering about customer service (chuckle).  Here is the URL, or click on my name.

Out for now.

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 18:18:46 (ZULU)

RG 89 is Radway Green circa 1989. British Ammo, and good fotter. Best of the non LC NATO stuff that I've found, with Hirtenburger being it's equal.  Shoots great through my FAL and through a M14 I used to have.  Shot sub 1.5MOA at 100 in my Stealth also.  Don't know if it's worth takin' out the crimps for 10 cases though.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 18:27:01 (ZULU)

1.  What is a good recommended powder, and can I use the same for both .308 bolt and .223 AR-15?  Hodgdon's Varget was recommended in the archives for this.  Comments?

2.  I was planning to use Federal .308 brass and Remington .223 brass.  Anything comparable cheaper?

3.  What would be a good .223 bullet?  Not military, so no limitations there.

4.  Primers would be standard Federal primers?  Anything equivalent cheaper?

Thanks for your comments!

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 18:27:51 (ZULU)

http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/files/Match_LR.html

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 18:43:17 (ZULU)

William M....for AR, I load pickup brass from a class III shooter buddy(the brass fairie).  He generally shoots LC, Win, etc. and I get the once fired.  For economy sake, check out www.gibrass.com.  You can get varying grades of military once fired brass (better than new federal or remington IMHO), and also bulk pulled powder at great prices.  For bullets, I have good luck with the Winchester 55grn FMJ boattail in bulk, they are pretty economical and I think it is used in the mil M193 load (I may be wrong here or have the designation messed up....correct me if so).  Shot way better than S.A. surplus I used to shoot, in my 16" 1-12 lightweight barrel.  When I started reloading .223, I had good luck with Win W748 powder, which you can also use in .308.  However, for .308, I use Varget, and get quite nice results.  I am switching to bulk powder from gibrass.com for my next batch of .223.

YMMV. I am sure you will get some more opinions, this is just my experience.   There are guys here that have WAAAAAAAYYYYYY more experience, hopefully they will chime in.  I will be listening right alongside ya!

Anybody else getting cabin fever??

Edited for spelling, 'Lito!!  ;-)

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 18:44:13 (ZULU)

Condolences to his family, and may he rest in peace.

FatBoy...

edited because I'm stupid and can't spell.

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 19:11:35 (ZULU)

The mouse gun is lighter, has less recoil effect, BUT the boolits are more wind affected. It seems that there is a lot of magic in getting the mouse gun properly set up to fire across the course.

The M1A is heavier, little more recoil, but the boolits at 600 yards are betterer. Less magic required but initial $ outlay for something that will come close to competing is more.

Now being an old fart and getting into this game really late in life, I don't think I will ever be Camp Perry competitive but it would be nice to have a score reported just in case I get lucky with the wind. For you Rosterferians that have done extensive match shooting, what did you like the best, 223 or 308?

It's raining, I'm bored, base for Winnie still not here so it won't be ready for this weekend. Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 19:19:30 (ZULU)

Just been reading Visier, a German shooting mag, they had an interesting comparison and test between the AI AW, The SWS 2000(the rifle I was on about with the 7.62 UKM a couple of months ago) and the Sako TRG 42 all in 338 Lap Mag. The AI just snitched 1st prize(only just) the SWS2000 was judged 2nd and the Sako 3rd.

And they also did a Scope comparison, testing for optical quality, reliability and repeatability,

they where judged:

Very Good 1. Swarovski 2. S&B ( Swarovski won because the judges liked the adjustments better)

Good, 3.Nikon 4 Kahles, 5 Nightforce NXS.

OK, 6.Doctor Optik, 7.Kettner, 8.Leupold, 9. Simmons,10 Bushnell, 11. Tasco.

Sub standard, 12, Meopta, 13. Norconia.

Ok you can't believe everything you read, but it was an interesting report any way.

Well in 20 mins I go on a weeks leave (work my ass off with further renovations more like, so you can catch me on the home email addr'

Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 19:37:21 (ZULU)

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
The Alleghenies, WV, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 19:53:00 (ZULU)

Have mounted 9 MGM 8" self resetting flopper plates on 3x8x20" blocks and Dropped off another batch of plates at the welders..Going to have the MGM precision rifle target as well as their Flash target {2}, and a couple of the mini poppers..Check out mgmtargets.com to see what you'll be shooting at.  Will start setting steel in place when the weather clears and we can get around on the mountain.  If all goes according to plan we'll have a minimum of 28 assorted steel targets plus the 6 Larues{if they make it back from Texas in time; Mark Larue assures us they will}..These will be supplemented with assorted sizes of ceramic tile targets. Rod and I are looking forward to setting this up and the shooting involved in testing out our plan for you all..It should be quite fun and educational for all concerned.  We are on track for May 4&5..All should hope for good weather...

Snowing here in the mts. now. You know it's nearing the end of winter when the important loading for prairie dogs, chucks, targets, IDPA, etc. is done and your reduced to working on 22 Hornet, 22 Jet, 45-70, and 44Mag. 245s & 320s{ouch!}..Need another Dillon 550; would make life much simpler.

Bruce Robinson...THANKS A BUNCH!!!!!!!!

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
The Alleghenies, WV, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 20:21:59 (ZULU)

Regarding your question of .223 or .308?

Either is fine.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both.  I think the reasons for the transition by the majority to .223 has to do with 3 main things.

1.  The initial cash outlay and the ongoing cost to shoot a .223 is much cheaper than .308.

2.  There have been bullets designed within the past several years that allow the .223 to be competitive at the 600 yard line.

3.  It's a lot easier to shoot the .223 for the 200 yard sitting rapid and the 300 yard prone rapid.  The reduced recoil, I believe, contributed to the scores, on these strings of fire, to rise for the majority of Service Rifle shooters (especially the sitting rapid).

Of course this is MHO.

Chrono'd some loads last weekend in the Savage.

45.5 grains Varget

Winchester brass (weight ~157 grains)

Federal 210M PrimerS

175 SMK

OAL 2.815

Velocity was 2699-2724 out of a factory Savage 24" barrel.  There were no signs of pressure other than slight cratering of the primer.  Accuracy was about .7MOA.  My standard load of 45.0 grains of Varget averaged 2670 fps with a little tighter grouping and there was still slight cratering in the primer.  Hasn't it been said that Federal primers are soft?  Could this be the reason for the cratering?

BUTNER NEXT WEEKEND!!!!!!!

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 21:17:12 (ZULU)

I feel your pain gearing up for Highpower, but if you haven't layed down any cash for the upper and the trigger yet, you may wanna look at the CMP program, and gettin' a bushmaster DCM.  I'll try an do this to obtain a backup rifle when funds permit.

Total outlay for a rifle ready to go, $895.

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/index.htm

Unless you have an FFL, I don't think you could build one cheaper.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 21:48:46 (ZULU)

I have a question regarding shooting movers.  I am going to put together a lead table (mils) and I am curious as to the speed of the target I should base this on.  Help much appreciated.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 22:34:44 (ZULU)

.223 vs. .308 SERVICE RIFLES,

A properly built AR will whoop an M1A out to and including 600yds and I believe will shoot inside the .308(windwise) with good 80gr loads.   AR's are cheaper to reload, and they are super accurate.   If something goes wrong with an M1A there are so many things that can be wrong with it.   Sights falling, gas system problems, bedding, and on and on.   Getting one properly built is super expensive and you will lose to an AR shooter anyway.

The only thing the M1A has on the AR is that an AR can't RELIABLY be shot at 1000yds----YET.

I dont want to start a caliber war here, this is just the opinion of a dedicated highpower shooter who rarely, if ever, see's an M1A perform in a match.

FWIW

Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 01:19:39 (ZULU)

A couple of years ago I also snapped the top piece of my Badger ring. I just called up and a new one was sent out right away. I suspect that as long as they guy didn't put a million foot pounds of torque pressure installing them that Badger will take care of it. They are another quality company that I learned about from the Roster way back when.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 01:20:54 (ZULU)

  I just read Johns post regarding targets and didn't want everyone to get the idea that the MGM plates will be our primary steel target.  We have a full range of sizes - Something for every range out to 1200 yards.

ROD    

Rod Hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com >
- Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 03:36:11 (ZULU)

All of the info you are looking for on movers is already in the TRGT sniper data book.

Hogs... In case you haven't seen it yet, check out the photo sequence of this tug boat accident at the following url:

http://www.netcopspsi.com/temp/towboat.htm

Unbelievable!!

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 04:58:04 (ZULU)

AR vs M-whatever

There is a very good reason that the AR's are taking over.

Looks - Gotta give this one to the M1a\M14 hands down. But looks ain't worth no points in yer score.

AMMO cost - I worked this out to be half the cost for equivalent hand loaded match ammo in .223 favor before I "went to the dark side". OK weber has 69, 77, and 80 grain SMK's for about $60\500 how much you gonna pay for 168's?

Wind bucking - again goes to the .223. The 68\69 grain bullets @ 2750 or so are the equal of the 168 SMK. The 77gr SMK @2700 will shoot inside the 168 SMK (it is closer to the 190 in ballistics) and the 80gr SMK @ 2700 will shoot inside the 190 SMK. If you opt for the Bergers or JLK's then you end up a minute or more inside for a 10mph full value. Load 24.3gr Varget and a CCI br4 or Rem 7 1/2 w/LC case and you'll do ok.

Need much mods to be competative - M1a\M145 you betcha! AR - HELL NO! I know a few people that took the plain old CMP legal Colt AR15 (not to be confused with any of the other models they offer, this one is basically an M16 A2 w\o select fire option) to High master class. One even earned his distinguished badge before he had to rebarrel his Colt. BTW I HATE COLT AR's, recommend Bushmaster CMP, Rock River CMP, or a custom!

CASH OUTLAY - AR again! You can get a completely match ready AR for about $1200 from one of the three or four recognized AR master smithies in the country. For the same $1200 you get the base M1a to add another $1200+ to before you get it match ready (and the $1200 AR with shoot rings around it). If you want an M1a, you are better off telling Jeff Corn or George  Gardner to build it up from scratch and bill you for the parts 'cuz you'll replace everything along the way. Bullets are twice as expensive for the .308 and it eats twice the powder too.

As for weight, My AR's weigh as much as if not more than my M1a did. I have the full butt weight and the front cuff. You lay it on your shoulder and it hangs there real nice. You can tune it to ballance and weigh exactly how you like it.

AR has less recoil, easier in rapid fire to stay on target and it don't beat the shit outa you in prone.

-Like Chris and Tim said except that THE AR WILL SHOOT RELIALABLY AT 1000 yards but you have to pay attention to technique and Position - Will Not out do a fag mag but the bullets and loads are there to hold it's own against an M1a\M14\M1.

Look at it this way, by the time you get a new M1a ready you'll have spent enough to buy a new custom match AR, a coat and a scope!

At any rate go shoot and have fun. Worry about the "equipment issues" if\when you want to get more serious.

Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Sleep deprived , and sick of hospitals, PA, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 05:12:23 (ZULU)

From the NRA-ILA FAX Alert Vol. 9, No. 9 3/1/02

http://www.nraila.org/ActionAlerts.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=101

DELL AND OUR RIGHT TO ARMS

This week has seen a great deal of discussion on the Internet and via e-mail regarding the Dell Computer Corporation. It all started when the president of the American Pistolsmiths Guild, Inc., Jack Weigand of Weigand Combat Handguns, Inc., attempted to order a Dell notebook computer. But Dell had implemented a screening process (in the wake of the terrorist attacks of September 11) that included holding up orders to companies with certain words in their name. This screening process was designed to better ensure compliance with federal export laws. One of those words is "combat," and Mr. Weigand’s order was cancelled in the screening process, pending a follow-up by company staff. But in the case of Mr. Weigand, no such follow-up occurred, and when the concerned customer called Dell, he was told his order was cancelled. Mr Weigand naturally became concerned that Dell was opposed to the firearms industry.

When NRA became aware of this situation, we contacted Dell, and the company has been very responsive to our concerns. It also quickly contacted Mr. Weigand to offer an apology and an explanation as to why his order had been cancelled. Dell representatives have shown a genuine concern over the implication that it takes a position in the debate over firearms, and it has gone to great lengths to assure NRA, and Mr. Weigand, that the company is not interested in taking sides in this political discussion.

Additional concerns have been raised over Dell’s affiliation with a little-known online fundraising program called EduOrg.com—set up to help raise money for colleges, interest groups, and other non-profit organizations. The group has established separate websites to assist "educational institutions...politically conservative organizations, and...politically liberal organizations." The concern over Dell stems from the fact that it is included as part of EduOrg.com’s online virtual shopping mall, and one of the non-profit groups that could profit through EduOrg.com is the gun-ban lobby formerly known as "Handgun Control, Inc." (While HCI has officially changed its name, EduOrg.com, through its "politically liberal organizations" site, still lists the group under its old name.) When contacted about this, Dell officials stated they were looking into this partnership, but it should also be pointed out that Dell did not choose to be listed on HCI’s section, as it is simply automatically listed on the site of any organization that gets involved with this online fundraising system. In fact, one can also find Dell listed on all of the sites under the conservative heading. Such "affinity" programs have become commonplace in the era of the Internet, and generally do not reflect any given political bent on the part of participating vendors when they do not specifically benefit a single group or cause.

NRA will continue to explore these issues, but it would appear that Dell as a corporation does not support an anti-gun agenda, as some have been reporting. Rest assured that we will continue to report on any developments on this front.

I still think their 'screening policy' is ridiculous.

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 05:36:22 (ZULU)

I would like to add to my above comments that I am specifically talking about NRA Highpower shooting.   Don't get me wrong, I love M1A's, I just wouldn't want to shoot one in competition if I was serious about it.

Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 05:37:23 (ZULU)

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 06:36:28 (ZULU)

littletoes <littletoze@msn.com>
Spokane, Washington, United States of America - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 06:55:00 (ZULU)

Hey hockeypuck...

On your comparison of the AR vs M-whatever, your bullet comparisons are WAY off... I can accept your enthusiasm for the AR... If I was gonna shoot NRA Service rifle, I would go with an AR... but I gotta keep you honest, Dude!

"Wind bucking - 68\69 grain bullets @ 2750 or so are the equal of the 168 SMK."  Not true... at 1000yds, with a crossing 10mph wind, the 69 SMK drifts 170", and the 168 drifts 115"... that's a difference (in favor of the 168) of 55".

"The 77gr SMK @2700 will shoot inside the 168 SMK... Not hardly... it'll drift 155", and that's still WAY outside the 168

"(it is closer to the 190 in ballistics)"... HA!... the BC of the 77 SMK is around .350, the BC of the 190SMK is around .520

"... and the 80gr SMK @ 2700 will shoot inside the 190 SMK."... not hardly (again)... the 10mph drift on the 80SMK is 130", and the drift on the 190 SMK would be 93".

The only bullet that will fly WITH a 168 SMK is the 75gr A-Max, with a BC of .440, and NONE of the .224 bullets will stay close to the 190SMK, or even the 175 SMK.

I'm not saying that the AR isn't competive, and there are a lot of advantages to it, but ballistics ain't one of them.

-

jc... as to your post on the DELL thing.... the fact that DELL supports "Many" groups doesn't make it "even steven" for me... that's like saying that they support the "American Communist Party", and the "Daughters of the Americal Revolution"... or the "Freedom for all races Party" and the "Back to Slavery Party"...they don't equal each other, and ballance out.

You can't support something that is against the Constitution, and say it's OK, cuz you also support something that's for the Constitution... The problem with HCI (other than they are a pain in the ass to us), is that they are trying to minipulate (and circumvent) the Constitution of the US, to undermine the ability of the people to control the government.

-

Littletoes... there IS evidence that DELL contributes to HCI... see jc's post above.

"We don' need no steeenkin' DELLs!!"

-

Hey CDC... your silence is deafening... Please start posting those links again!!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 12:53:59 (ZULU)

Bustacated!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 12:54:00 (ZULU)

This is yet another example of "Darwinism".  If the object of the competition was to deliver lethal energy on target the AR family would never have been considered.  But all you've got to do is put a hole in the paper so the intrinsic accuracy potential of the AR design and caliber wins.  The "Cooper" formula that factors  speed/power/accuracy is not applied so the whole exercise turns into just another shooting match and the most competative system gets the nod.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 14:08:10 (ZULU)

OK OK

I agree with all the posts that say that the AR-15 is the way to go if you are looking to get into Service Rifle competition, BUT I have to come to the defense of the M1A.  There are an awful lot of folks that are walking around with a Distinguished Badge that have never fired an AR in competition.

While it is true that you do not see too many M1As on the firing line any longer, that does not mean that they are not competitive.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 14:12:34 (ZULU)

I'd agree that the AR is a distorsion of what the original concept of this type of shooting, but those bullets, in weight from 55 to 80gr, are still supersonic at 600, and will kill a man just as dead as a 168gr SMK.

The real mutation of the AR rifles, are the two stage match triggers, the free float tube and the NM 1/2 and 1/4 moa adjustable sights and these are DCM service rifle legal mods.  I not trying to put words in your mouth, but I would think these would be more an example of "race gun" syndrome than the caliber choice.

Bolt should be able to take his Colt, as is, and be able to compete right along side of the guy that just pulled a standard M1A out of a springfield box,,, no mods. That would be a better example of the intrinsic accuarcy and lethality (is that a word?) of a weapons system.

With the limited amount of highpower expierence I have, it's obvious that the AR has an advantage over the M1A/M14's. (for highpower shooting)but I don't see the AR being able to take the kind of abuse the old M14's could and still function relaiably.  All that said, the guys out there with M70's and old Rem 40x's do just fine....

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 15:47:19 (ZULU)

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 16:38:12 (ZULU)

In the Marines we fire Division match level competition (National Match)with rack grade M6A2's (500 slow fire v 600 though and all on 5V targets)and issue ammo and the scores/groups are still respectable.  

I took a team to an NRA match with the rack M16A2's, green tip ammo, leather slings and CANVAS jackets and we had numerous stage wins at the 200 and 300.  I think our average score at the 600 was around 170 so we were no threat there as the wind was honking...

Im spent.  

Out here.

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 16:56:29 (ZULU)

Maybe I should have preceded that NRA statement with a disclaimer saying 'the views expressed in the following post are not necessarily those of the poster'. I'm just the messenger.

I agree with what you said about supporting many groups. An individual or company could truthfully say they support two disparate groups while donating 10 dollars to one group and 10 million dollars to the other. And that's certainly not "even steven".

Bottom line is the DELL apology was a spin-doctored load of BS and this dude ain't gettin' a DELL.

On the AR vs. M-whatever debate...

Sure the wind is more of a factor with .223's but that just makes it more of a challenge. Plus, being semi-retired I can appreciate the lower cost of shooting .223's compared to .308's, and I can also appreciate the difference in recoil. I'll leave all that shoulder bangin' to the younger shooters. Those are some of the reasons why even my 700 PSS is chambered in .223.

Now, where the hell is my flak vest?

jc

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 17:04:32 (ZULU)

Long time no write! Been busy building FALs and playing with other shorter n' faster stuff than bolt guns, but now I am back into it again. Oh, yeah, there is the small mattter of graduate school and student teaching. That takes up a bit of time as well.  :-)

FN Special Police:

I have not been here much for the past several months and am not aware of what all has been said on these to date, but I picked up one the other day.  It now wears the M3 LR and Badger rings that came off of the now-famous 700 PSS From Hell <tm> that was recently sold (more on that later) and a new Badger base. Man, it is nice to be working with a Winchester action again. I had forgotten just how much I like those things. The detachable box mag arrangement is a good bit better than the now-defunct DM arrangement on the Remingtons. Even though my Remington always worked in that respect until very recently (again, more on that later), the Winchester/FN arrangement is the better idea. The stock is essentialy the same construction as the 700PSS, but is much better shaped than the PSS stock for field work, more akin to the old Winchester Marksman target stock than the big, target-like stock on the Remington. I have not shot it as of yet, but if it will go anywhere near 1/2 MOA and stay that way (as they are reputed to do), I will be more than happy. I have always said  that an accurate chrome-lined barrel would be THE way to go if it were possible, and now it would appear that it is, so YAY! I also like the fact that I drive by the factory that made my barrel on the way to work each morning. Support your local gun factory, I always say.  :-) I got one of these on anticipation of the newer, McMillan-stocked and much more expensive replacements of this rifle being introduced later this month. They will still be not much over a grand at retail, so these will be worth looking at as well.

700PSS From Hell <tm> Update; Will It Ever End?:

Well, shucks, this story simply will not go away. For those who have missed previous episodes, here is the short version of the story to date: I bought a Remington 700 PSS DM from a local law enforcement distributor about 3 or 4 years ago. I first had to correct a serious barrel contact problem in the barrel channel before I could even take it to the range, then found that it would still not shoot better than 2.25 MOA @ 100 yards with known-good match ammo. Upon examining the crown, I find that it is cut grossly eccentric, and I mean so eccentric you could do better with a Dremil tool freehand than Remington managed on this gun. Disgusted, I have the distributor ship it back to Remington for warranty repair. It returns in 45 days with a note saying that i5 shot into .5 MOA with their ammuniton.  LIARS! That rifle was never going to shoot anything that tight. So, I suck it up and order the crowning tools from Brownells that I had been meaning to order for a couple of years anyway (but to recut beat up old Mosin and Mauser barrels, not a brand-new tactical rifle!) and recut it, and by some mysterious act of devine providence, it realy DOES start shooting .5 MOA, or just over. Will wonders never cease.

Anyway, that was fixed, but it turned out that the gun had a wandering zero problem on top of everything else, so I had to glass it in Marinetex, and then it started doing right. But, the last time I shot it after a six-month layoff, it shifted zero about 1/2 MOA out at 1 o'clock. Not that big a deal, but I had a line on the FN Special Police at that point and was just plain tired of the thing, and so, I sold it at a gun show to a realy nice guy from the upstate.  I gave him the log book and told him the whole story as best I could recall it, and he got what should have been a pretty solid gun at a pretty good price.

Well, now he calls to let me know that he was shooting some Georgia Arms match ammo in it and that the third round stuck the bolt to where it could be raised but not moved to the rear. Once he did manage to get the bolt back, the extrator fell out on the ground and he thinks that part of the ring surrounding the bolt face is missing. I recomended that he confirm that the bolt was indeed damaged, and if it was to just go ahead and ship it back to Remington, because they are the only ones who can replace the bolt. I also asked him to keep me informed as to what happenens.

He says that the cartrige case is intact and seems to be in good order and that the primers are not even flatened, so there should have been no release of gas to damage the bolt face, and as I understand it it would take a truly huge blowup to screw up the bolt like that. I am truly puzzled, as are he and several other people that he has had look at it. The one thing this gun has allways been very good about doing is feeding, firing, extracting and ejecting, so I am thinking that it has to be ammunition related in some way, but I have no idea how. If anybody here has any insight as to what may have happpened, please let me know.

And I do not care what caused this incident to happen, but Remington and I are through.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, South KakyLaky, US of A - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 17:07:31 (ZULU)

As with a lot of other NRA stuff, a regular middle class old fart can't compete because he doesn't have the bucks to upgrade to match rifle. Most of us would have to sell off half our weaponry just to be able to afford one or two match rifles. A better method of splitting the shooting groups would be to set SPECIFIC standards relating to exactly what a service rifle is instead of broad standards for the weapons in each class. Any rifle that has any improvements should be put in the open class.

The NRA is missing out on a lot of good shooters by not recognizing classes for factory rifles. Take the 'F' class for instance(not NRA yet), even if I was an equal marksman with the other guys like Sinister, my chances of winning the 'F' class with a factory rifle would be less than likely. Could be done, but not likely.

Oh, well, improvise/adapt/overcome! Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 17:38:14 (ZULU)

The rules will not change for me or those few others that might agree with me so I'm prepared to play by the existing rules.  I have always had a special love affair with the M1 and enjoy owning and shooting the old war horse.  I'm waiting for mine to be returned from a custom shop in Texas where it has been overhauled and spruced up.  Someone once said that shooting a rifle that doesn't kick is like making love with your cloths on.  I'm not so sure I'd take it that far but I do enjoy the physical experience of firing the M1.  There is no spring noise in your ear or plastic against your cheek.  I was once warned that these kinds of opinions (aka my father's)would one day become my own.  Oh well, I guess it's time.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 19:36:49 (ZULU)

Re Dell:

You are either with us or against us!  The shooting community has given up too much already for the sake of not being labeled as extremist.

Screw them! Vote with your money, buy from pro gun places and boycott

the ones who are not.  " Societies that give up freedom for security will have, nor deserve either".

Out

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 19:43:17 (ZULU)

M1A/M14 vs AR15/M16 - Hearing all sorts of claims but many do not wash.  As 'Lito pointed out the AR suffers at the winds discretion but kicks a** with the rapids.  Have fired both and as age has set in will go witht he AR/M16 mods.  Wind at 600 will put you in the hurt locker at 600 if you don't watch it.  Yes the 80s are great but do not hold as well as the 168s, 175s nor the 190s.  Catch the wrong side of a fish tail and you will score in the 8s and 7s while the 168s will hold the 9s and 8s.

Bolt - Go mouse gun, it is just plain more fun!  However, don't get that wrong, many are saying that the M14 variations will not shoot and that is plain horse hockey.  They shoot very well and will continue to shoot.  I agree completely when Paul states that there are a buch with distinguished on their chest from the "oldtimeres guns", and I would say that there will be more.

Next copmplaint is valid in that the rules are allowing more and more alterations.  Now don't get me wrong, the M14 NM that the AMU fired was not stock rack grade by any definition.  There were a number of alterations that included gas piston/plug, rear sights were 1/2 moa windage and 1/2 moa capable elevation, flash hider, operating rod figure 8, rifle grenade switch and welded or staked front band.  there are more but that is a quicky.  The rules are open appearence must be stock, innards well what can I say.  

Chris the distortion started before the AR/M16

Open class being needed is very true.  The original idea of the F class was to allow the "normal shooter" the ability to compete without a massive outlay of cash.  What has happened is that the benchies have brought in bench guns and other nonsense that has raised the stakes back to too much money.  The NRA had better get the "regular guy" back into competition or it will become the sport of the rich.

Dell vs whatever - Go to http://www.progressivefunds.com/hci/ and see how hci gets a piece of the action from Dell.  Dell may not "contribute directly" BUT.  Do not see the NRA there and getting that same piece of the pie.  Am using that web site as my do not shop there list.

Movers - What do you want ot shoot at?  Gazelle, deer, sloth, humans, dogs, cats, ATVs violating your land, these all move at diffrent speeds and require different leads.  But generally the speeds of 1.5, 3 and 6 are used at start points.  That would be patrol walk, fast walk and 3 - 5 sec rush speed.

Gizmo - Now that would be a life altering event for me!

LITO DOUBLE POSTED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bolt - Last thought, do not confuse the rules of NRA service rifle with the rules of DCM leg matches for distinguished or qualification to receive a DCM weapon.  They are different.

Didn't realize Gene was known by so many!  He was a student of mine in the 70s when he was just out of West Point and Ranger school.  Fine 2lt with a good head.  Walked him around in the jungles of Panama for a while and had fun at his expense.  :-)

As I had said, good man, shot and instructor!

Well, done for now and back to the grind!

Hold Hard guys and stay safe, those transitions to the short gun can be a pain!.

Rick

NOT EDITED FOR SPELLING! :-)

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 20:40:17 (ZULU)

  Just want to mention a good deal confirmed- WU52@aol.com   Chuck is selling USGI new not in wrap mags for 30.00 each. Mine came in yesterday and I didn't see manufacture codes stamped on them! Emailed Chuck and he had me put oil on the spine of the mag... DUH I got some really nice BRW S-1 mags here!!! Heck of a nice guy and some excellent new mags.

 FWIW- I intend to start highpower competion this year but do not intend to battle for position- intend to use it to learn shooting skills with MY rifles. Just another twist-kinda free/cheap training?

Congrats Steve!! I ahve 3 younguns and they make the sun shine!! Going to Chuck E Cheese He*@ later to see them beam...they should serve Tequila shots there!

              Take care all.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 20:43:06 (ZULU)

I prepared my Ballistic Data Card for a 3 mph walk in Mils. Mentally double it for a jog/run and triple it for a sprint/dash.

-KEB

KEB <BeggsKE@raytheon.com>
Greenville, Texas, USA - Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 21:41:26 (ZULU)

About time I bring something useful to the site, and hopefully I'll be able to do so in the forseeable future.  I wanted to post last night but was called out (though I worked from home) and only finished 00H30 this morning.

Any case, yesterday I was at the AIM Shooters' Show close by at Kyalami in Johannesburg.  I wanted to look around, but I went with primarily two specific targets:

- NTW Anti-Materiel Rifle - a 20mm/14.5mm interchangeable system.  Reviewed about 1998 in Soldier of Fortune (that was the first one built).  Conversion kit available to practice "easily and cheaply" with .50BMG ammunition.  :-)

'Lito, just playing with .50BMG - how do you like that?

Next week Tony is oversees, and after that he'll contact me with more info on it.  This will hopefully lead to me shooting this thing and doing a review for Sniper Country.  Seen videos of the thing - pleasant recoil?  WHERE'S MY MUMMY!?  Though they say it is more a push than a kick.  He'll fit me in some time when they do field testing of the new batch to be built.

This thing is serious Anti-Materiel.  I was there with my Sniper Country T-shirt and used it to good effect when speaking to him intelling his why I was there.  He was keen on a write-up, but no sale to civilians.  This thing is serious shit, shooting PRAC, PRACT (PRAC with tracer), HEI (HE Incendiary), HEIT (HEI with tracer) and SAPHEI (Semi armour piercing high explosive with base fuse) 20x82mm ammunition.  Projectile weight is a mere 112gram.

14.5 mm (swapout from one to the other takes at most five minutes - complete with barrel change) shoots API (Armour Piercing Incendiary) and APIT rounds.

Not really *sniper* material, as it is not all that accurate, especially with the barrel swapout, but good enough for the purpose.

- Out of this also flowed getting access to a tour of PMPs ammunition manufacturing plant and facilities.  I'll try and do a write-up about this as well.

- The other thing, which will interest some people on here, was the NeoStead pump action shotgun also launched at the show.  Also written up in SOF some time ago, this is a concept which Tony (of rifle above) gave birth to, but has been taken over by some others, might even be one of the original team.

Its specs at a glance:

- 12 gauge

- 13 rounds (2 x 6 round tubes on top, plus one in the chamber)

- 690mm long (27.6")

- 245mm high (9.8")

- 60mm wide (2.4")

- 4.1 kg

And here is the kicker.  With that overall length (full stock!!) it has a 570mm (22.5") barrel!!  The pump action is forward to eject, the back to lock up again.  The magazine is twin tubes on top of the barrel.  Polymer stock and grip (fore + pistol) - rest all steel.  Bottom ejection.  Safety in trigger guard - push forward to fire, thus totally ambidextrous.

This thing is a real serious CQC shotgun.  The recoil is unbelievably light.  The demonstrator shot it one-handed with the arm fully extended, and it jumped less than what a handgun does!

I will also be doing a full review on this - including doing some shooting at the CSIR range, halfway between work and home :-) (About 10km from either)

Unfortunately it is not on the Truvelo (seems like they will be local distributors) website yet, but I'll try to scan them at work as a teaser.

What some of us won't go through for the site! :-)

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 22:03:00 (ZULU)

'lito & anyone else with an interest:

Local (Huntsville, AL) store has 2 Anschultz 54's.  One has micrometer adjust rear, hooded front, butt hook, palm rest.  Great looking wood, oil finish.  Wants $1195.  Other has no front or rear.  Has scope blocks, looks like a clear lac. finish.  Wants $1299.

Didn't have chance to check bores.  Dealer is always high on his prices but will usually deal.  Will do FFL to FFL transfer.

Let me know via e-mail (smith934@hiwaay.net) if anyone interested and I will go back & check out in greater detail.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 01:02:57 (ZULU)

The ROCK will shoot by all estimates, a lot more accurately than I can!

It shoots like a dream, and one of these days I'll get it out when the weather is nice and I have a longer range to test it's wings.

My M1A is however, giving me fits.  It is a rifle built by George Gardner, bought used by me, and restocked again by George.  The thing functions great. I have a McMillan M3 stock and GG&G base and rings, topped by a Leupold Mk4 M3.  The problem is, shooting Black Hills 175 gr Match ammo I can't get the damn thing to shoot LOW enough to zero at 100 yds.  I have checked and rechecked the mount, rings, etc... with no change.  Any of you gents have any experience with this set up and how to fix my problem?  All suggestions will be greatly accepted until I can get in touch with my gun guru George.  Thanks

Denis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 01:21:26 (ZULU)

The WLR and the 210M are both fine match grade primers... the 210M have the softest metal cups in the business, and they will "look" like the pressure is high (cratering) way before it is.  Shoot either, but for a M14 or other auto, go with the WLR (or CCI #34).

-

Rickster... Man, I shudda known you wouldn't cut me no rhythm.  It wasn't my fault that I doubled.  I dropped my Bacon Cheese Burger on the mouse. ;)))

-

Marius...

Welcome to the 1/2" club ;))... I don't think I'll get into the 20mm club in this lifetime.

-

Don Smith...

The Anschutz 54's can be worth from $900, to over $2100, depending on the configuration, so you gotta know the exact model number... and thanks, but I gotta figure how to pay for the one I found in Joisey, and then a "Biathlon Fortner" will be my birthday present next October (don't even THINK of askin' ;), and that will be "IT" for Anschutz's... I can't afford anymore!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 03:22:20 (ZULU)

I couldn't find any info on GG&G's M1A mount.  Does it have any built in taper??  If so, that could be your problem...

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 03:35:50 (ZULU)

The GG&G mount (as with all M14 mounts) can be shifted a bit.  In your case, you have TOO MUCH taper, and you need to tilt the mount backwards a bit... (but you DID remember to remove the elevation cam before you tried to zero it?   Say yes).

Loosen the main screw that goes into the side of the action, and then tighten the screw on the front receiver ring to lift up the front of the mount... you can do this at the range, and try it as you go.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 05:22:45 (ZULU)

 If I shoot my M1A in a match, it will be because I got nostalgic and just want to go make some noise.

 What I saw immediately after switching, was an improvement in my sight picture. I can hold the rifle with my eye closer to the rear sight without worrying about rippin my eyebrow off.

 The AR also allows a more comfortable hold in offhand. You do not have to elevate your elbow as much to get a solid hold with the AR.

 As already stated, the big advantage is in the rapids. Sight upset is minimal. You haven't lived until you've shot a rattle battle with an M1A, and then shot one with an AR. PULLLLEASSEE!!!!!

 Keep in mind too, that all the above opinions are coming from a guy that went distinguished with an M1 Garand, just because I'm that stubborn, and my squaddie said that I didn't have a chance!!

 The fudge factor with the higher BC 30 cal. boolits is sorely missed, but it also served to wake me up a bit more and to keep a good eye on the range conditions. You will not be able to shoot through some of the changes that you could with a 30.

 The NRA has finally acknowledged that an AR will flat hang with the 30s at 600. Last year, they did away with the 30cal. rule, where all holes were scored with a 30 cal plug regardless of cal. of hole in target.  The AR does not need an advantage.

 Find a 6601 colt Hbar and go shoot that dude. They have cavernous throats, but you will be able to long seat 80s for 600, and I have seen some of those rifles hold 10 ring with standard handguards.

 Last year at the Ohio State Championships, there were only 6 M1As out of over 300 shooters on the line. Whether it is a fad, or if the AR is the superior platform will have to be determined by the individual.

 Chuck

Chuck <Ballsack34@aol.com>
Troy, Ohio, Cold enough to be Canada - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 09:29:35 (ZULU)

'Lito and I have been discussing the 5R barrel thread off-line. Seems his comment to the gent was to buy it and eat "mac and cheese" for awhile. My comment to him was to wash it down with Ripple and Seven-Up..."a bit of the bubbly".

So, he has penned the combination: "Ripple and Seven-up...Mac and cheese...a gourmet Sunday night meal for gun sluts"...

What a guy. Makes me wonder what he eats for breakfast...

On the M1A vs. AR thread. I have both. While I love the M14 series as a "battle rifle" I must admit I shoot the M16/AR15 series better. Especially, in rapid fire. Less or no position break down.

Thrown vs. Weighed charges. Initial testing gives a VERY slight edge to weighed charges. More uniform velocities by a wopping 10 FPS. Not hardly enought to worry about. I may just go with thrown charges for general use and training. Use the hand weighed charges for "serious" match work and the like.

All for now,

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 12:55:31 (ZULU)

Rice Friskies, no sugar, no milk!  ;)))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 14:16:09 (ZULU)

Both of the ChiComs performed well with Junk Chinese 7.62-39 ammo. My HK-91 with Sniper trigger and all should have done better but didn't place near the top. There are two conclusions to be drawn. One is that testing is futile on things like this.  The other is that SKS rifles are superior to the best things we have. I don't like either one.  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 14:36:28 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 14:59:07 (ZULU)

I carried an average 75 lb ruck for about 3 years in the jungle and mountains on recon patrols, but we were moving pretty slow and quiet. A few times we had to un-ass the area quickly, and I can remember my legs turning to mush pretty fast. The body was gone, and only the desire to live kept you moving. I can't even imagine humping that load in the assualt. In fact I find it hard to believe you could get that much weight in a Marine 1941 pack system. I'm not so sure the average grunt carried that much weight in the assualt. Hopefully they grounded that shit somewhere before going on. I would like to know for sure. Fear is tiring enough without all that added weight hanging on your ass. Those guys at IWO were pretty damn special, so as it is.  

Every combat leader should be made early in his carreer to read and study SLA Marshall's two books "Men Against Fire" and "The Soldiers Load and Mobility of a Nation." They should also be read again before any new conflict.

I remember how much I loved my M-14, and carried a M-3 for awhile, but became very thankful later for the much lighter CAR-15.

I also remember jumping and humping some of the old HF and VHF comm gear we operated and trained with. Some of those radios alone broke down into two man loads of 55 lbs each. No wonder my legs and knees are shot today. I'm glad for the guys today to have something a little lighter. Course, they probably just carry more shit.

I got good real quick in braking things down to esentials back then. Most people do.

Just some of my thoughts on this subject,

Semper Fi,

Finger  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 16:08:11 (ZULU)

Seems they shot down 2 choppers.

My condoleances to their family's and hope they give hell to those responsible.

Should be no problem, specops from Australia, Canada, USA, UK, France Germany and even from little old Holland are in on the hunt...that and a few carpets should do the trick.

Hope they get even,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 16:09:40 (ZULU)

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
Bartlesville, OK, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 16:18:19 (ZULU)

A common problem with much SWAT thinking is that the entry Team is THE Team and everybody else is just carrying their jock strap.  Most SWAT commanders were prior entry people and have no stick time.  IMHO most Municipal and State SWAT Teams do not get to train enough to successfully pull off a Delta type hostage rescue.  Besides, they also cannot fade the heat of Delta type kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out ROE.  

We are the police.  We are NOT the military.  Our targets, even though they are criminal or crazy or both are still US citizens and not Taliban and (to a point) are entitled to all the rights the Constitution provides.  That fact directly affects how we do our business.  That, TO ME is the biggest difference between the cop vs. military sniper.  Shooting is shooting, near or far.  This game just entails so much more than shooting.  Anybody remember a little place called Ruby Ridge ?  Delta tactics are cool in Somalia.  They ain't so cool in Idaho, USA.  

Egos get people killed.  Why risk seven men when one bullet will do the job ?  But then, what the hell do I know ?  I am just a Sniper and don't have do anything but lay on my ass when the pager goes off . . .

SWAT cops in Marietta Georgia who tragically lost two men a few years back would probably agree with me.  Not to second guess them, (I wasn't there) but a dynamic entry was made on a guy known to have a shotgun.  Two cops were immediately killed outright.  A sniper later ended it with one shot.  

If we could only go back in time and change just a few of our decisions . . .

Watch your sixes my brothers,

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, March 4, 2002, at 16:47:28 (ZULU)

A-men brother

Damn few team commanders want to consider a sniper resolution.

Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 17:48:52 (ZULU)

The AN/GR 109 radio was 4 components, a transmitter, reciever, hand crank generator and seat and coder/burster device.  Each component was about 25lbs.  Ammo for M60s, 40mm grenade launchers, explosives, batteries, medical kit, ropes, climbing gear and anything else mission essential is divided up and carried by the team.  Sometimes 2 each.   Add that to your individual load and web gear and many times the load is well over 100lbs.   Load was usually carried from infiltration point to a base camp or safe location then cached and redistributed.

On the NRA high power rifle M1A, isn't the max bullet weight 155?

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 18:05:53 (ZULU)

Santa Domingo, D.R., April 1965/PDR Sniper in a dumpster/Solution, one shot, 106mm RR

Ref: Combat Load

The loads are always too heavy.  The Fauklands was an example of individual loads >50 kilos.  In RVN the NVA/VC could run like deer with their loads while US forces slogged on overburdened.  The M16 weighs less but the difference is taken up with typical basic loads >400 rounds.  Rhodesian scouts got the job done with a SLR and 100 rounds and a couple of canteens.  This is a tough subject but one worth exploring.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 18:29:45 (ZULU)

I concur with your comments below (way below) about thrown vs. weighed powder charges.  I threw 20 out of a Harrells Precisions BR measure (my st dev was 0.12gr) using Varget.  ES of the ammo over a chrono was 19 fps.  SD was 7 fps.  But this is only for 5 rounds.  I should do 20 to get a better sample.

Palma guys may disagree...but this velocity deviation is good enough for me.  

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
Upstate, SC, US of A - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 18:39:15 (ZULU)

 I agree with Kevin, this is a good topic to explore. The loads guys carry is plumb crazy!!! There is no way you can hump close to 80+ lbs and then be considered fit to fight or bug out.

  With the technology we have today we should be able to make the loads lighter not heavier. Why the big loads?? Are we taking 3 day patrols, overnight or two week patrols?? I can see the need for ammo, water and food and not a lot else depending on the lenght of a mission.

 The VC carried a rice ball in a banana leaf, AK-47 and ammo and not much more and lived in the jungle for days on end. I think we need to do some rethinking here isn't that why we have choppers, to haul stuff??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, March 4, 2002, at 20:30:29 (ZULU)

I prefer the lightest AR/M16 I can get. Like Jim was saying there.

Brian I mentioned that little computer game SWAT 3. It made me laugh when the Sniper says he is clear and the command always tells him to hold!

I want to scream "shoot the bastards, I'm dying here!"

Talk about realism! Har de har!

Anyway your point is well taken!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 21:37:03 (ZULU)

I think an S.O.P. saying when to reload is a bad thing, trying to have a policy for every situation is not good. polices should be broad allowing for a constantly changing enviornment, especially in the tactical arena.  This reduces the liability and better protects the officer and agency.

TRAINING is the key.

If you fire 30 rnds out of an MP, and need more during an entry, you better be looking for cover and use your pistol to fight your way to it.

sometimes the quickest reload is to transition to your secondary(handgun).

The place for a speed or tactical reload is behind cover,if possible.

The only problems I see with a pistol as an entry weapon is capacity,  you cant drop it (no sling) if you have to fight, and you cant drive the muzzle through a noncompliant suspects chest.

funny story I just heard at a national firearms trainers conf.

MASSAD ABOOB, ha ha,  was giving "expert" testimony during a civil trial and was asked what publications he wrote for he responded   as one would imagine,  guns ammo,  handgunner, etc....

A rather competent def. attorney asked if he wrote for any other publications not related to firearms       his relutant answer was yes.

HUSTLER....

his credibility went down the toilet    where it belongs!!

massad, if you want to be the police do it for real dont get a reserve commision and use it to preach your gibrish. I have a T-SHIRT for you "been there read that".

c-ya   stepping off soap box now.

JIM ANDERSON <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 21:57:31 (ZULU)

If you have access to it, there was an interesting article about the accuracy of various powder measures in Precision Shooting, October 1998.  If there's interest, maybe someone that has it and a scanner could send it your way.

The basic conclusion of Frank Murphy was that the best measures are very accurate and consistant, but that the idea of being able to throw long stretches of 1/10gr accurate charges didn't seem to happen with any of them.  At least HE was unable to do it (.4-.6gr was about average over a stretch).

He does, however, raise the point, the evidence of a PROPERLY tuned load is not just a good group, but that small variations of powder charge will NOT affect group size.  The explaination for this is long-winded and I don't want to open that battle, but the short of it is that variations of charge, mixed with vibratory motion of the barrel, tends to put the most accurate loads in such a place that the small variations in velocity can occur with no ill effects.  Inaccurate loads tend to occur at places where the barrel is in greatest motion, so small variations in velocity really stand out on the target.

That's my take anyway.  

Andre <andrekp@yahoo.com>
FL, USA - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 21:58:27 (ZULU)

However, I teach a class on the very scenario you described. Only, it happened to me and my Team and it wasn't a game.  As time goes on and word gets out, I am requested to tell the story more and more. Often times in an open forum.  I have told it to working snipers at all levels of both police and military disciplines. It is extremely humbling when those types of men shake your hand (some hug your neck) and thank you for speaking candidly.  People were shot and some died as a result of decisions made that day.  Those decisions were made by someone with an agenda and politics weighed heavy on everything decided.  Unbeknownst to us (the operators) we had no idea what was transpiring behind the scenes, at our expense. Some of you here can relate I am sure.  Unlike most of my BS here, it is no silly cop story.

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, March 4, 2002, at 22:10:17 (ZULU)

I envyed the spec ops guys, who could travel light, but our "Leadership" wanted every damn thing we had on our back,,, including movement to contacts.  Anybody else tried to get up out of the prone with a 130+lbs ruck?  

This was all for a gun team, but you get the point.  RTO was even worst.

Another piece of equipment that needs to be re-thought is the FLAK vest.  The damn thing not only doesn't stop flak(got a horrible story about that), it won't allow you to look through the sights while in the prone, or look up while marching/walking if you're wearing a Kevlar and your Alice pack at the same time. Not to mension, it weighs 15 lbs, and saps every bit of water out of your body in 5 minutes.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've cried, I've learned how to cook cat...., - Monday, March 4, 2002, at 22:53:16 (ZULU)

Thanks for the help.

Todd <thkoehler@earthlink.net>
- Monday, March 4, 2002, at 22:57:36 (ZULU)

Jim; you are so dead on center! That guy pisses me just to read him.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 01:19:05 (ZULU)

Patrol weight-one of the things that drives combat loads up is the shared weight: mortar rounds, MG belts, Claymores, radio batteries, smoke markers, blooper rounds (just dated myself) etc.  

The new body armor materials should be able to cut the weight & discomfort of the flak jacket.  At least now they don't (Advise if wrong) try to get you to wear that damn kevlar kilt!

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 01:33:55 (ZULU)

This whole thing on entry work is getting silly.  Pistol versus whatever.  Heres the real world rules:

Bad Sh.. Rules that just happen:

1. One your primary will brake/stop/jam, and while you try and fix it you will get your a.. waxed

2. You will find the one bad round of factory ammo in ten million.  It will be the one in the chamber when you try and shoot a bad guy.

3. The mag release will get banged on a high risk entry and drop the mag in the weapon.  Never happens in training just when it should not.

4. You will forget to fasten one or two mag pouches and bump into, fall down or otherwise come up with a way to dump an extra mag or two.

Rules you better follow to survive when the rules above fall on you:

1. Have a secondary weapon

2. Go to secondary weapon (Pistol) when ever the following happens:

       a) Gun stops working

       b) Gun runs out of ammo

       c) Bad guy grabs primary weapon (M4-MP5 etc)

       d) Quarters get so tite you can not move around with a long

          gun

3. Carry all the weapons you can when doing entry work.

Next are rules to live by when packing:

1) How long will I be gone

2) How much ammo will I need, also known as how much ammo can I carry

3) How much water will I need

4) Will I be out long enough to need food

Bottom line is you live longest with extra ammo, followed by water, then food/shelter.  Error on the side of more ammo and water

Next note we still have  afew openings for the July 26 through August 2nd sniper class, with James and I. Email me if interested.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 01:35:21 (ZULU)

He (and I) saw the same thing in West Virginia (very humid), though....your body tries to cool off by pumping more water out through perspiration, but it doesn't evaporate, so it pumps more, and pretty soon somebody's stickin' an IV into you to bring you back to conciousness.

Maybe I'm just more conscious of hydration living where I do, but my best advise to all of you is to carry more water than you think you need, and keep drinking it. And if you're in a humid environment during hot weather and strenuous exertion, don't forget the salt tablets!

On another note:

I have yet to hear back from Dell.

How 'bout an alternative ending to their latest commercial?

Customer: "Steven, doesn't Dell contribute to HCI?"

Steven: "Uhhhmmm.......Nooooo!"

Stay Safe,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 02:24:04 (ZULU)

out

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!!!!! - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 03:29:53 (ZULU)

   I am now a really long distance sniper, 20 miles give or take(198)and dont do much humping for the unit but do do a lot on my own. I always try to make my rucks as accurate as possible, packing live ammo 3 day rations and 9 quarts of H2O, w/weather gear(goretex), poncho and liner, sox ,skivvies ,1st aid, 1 set bdus  ect.. I figure on a three day three night haul befor resupply and my ruck usually ends up weighing in at about 75-80 lbs. granted this load is'nt accounting for commo gear and extra 60 ammo but its a good place to start.

   These loads are very carryable but require PRACTICE! The biggest factor IMHO is your ruck/LBE setup. Start light and ruck, find the hotspots, adjust your setup and then add weight. With a properly adjusted kit you'll be surprised at how much shit you can haul. The standard Issue stuff is a good start but the aftermarket goodies like oversized kidney belt and SpecOps LBE suspenders and chest strap will enhance your capabilites and comfort BIGTIME!

    I've even started sewing/desighning some of my own stuff!

HELL, I have a "friquent buyers card from Martins House of cloth.

My old lady thinks I'm gay because I'm the one in the house that got the sewing machine but Hey, It keeps me out of trouble.

Good luck with the rucks guys and I hope someone can use the info,

By the way, Anyone know where I can purchase bulk camo codura and heavy nylon mesh? Been getting them out of PARAGEAR parachute supply catalouge but they are kinda pricey.

Good luck and happy trails,  SGT Jake

Jake P <para13bp@gsinet.net>
New Hampsha, USA "ALL THE WAY" - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 05:09:27 (ZULU)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0304/p01s03-wosc.html

Charley <cmeng@yahoo.com>
KY, - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 05:29:33 (ZULU)

out

Willy

GavanWillis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 07:59:45 (ZULU)

HPDSFS = Hollow Point Discarding Sabot Fin Stabilized ;-)

http://www.sauvestre.tm.fr/index_us.htm

Check out data on the 12ga 3"

TorF

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
- Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 08:35:37 (ZULU)

I thought I saw a link of someone who adds the oversized bolt knob to your existing bolt. Who and where is the link?........I had a major cranial rectal insertion and cannot find it.

It is for a Model 70 bolt. Any help...........THANKS

Adam

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, Md., USA - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 11:22:21 (ZULU)

 Point well taken. I have found the actual powder charge to have the "Least" affect on accuracy. Once I have a load, be it 44grs or what ever I just set it and check every 5th load and I don't worry about 2 to 3ths either way and I don't notice any down range or cronograph affects either.

Packs..

 I still find it hard to believe that guys are humping 80+lbs on their backs and now Cris your saying over 100lbs!!! Damn there is something wrong with this mans army. I see why the Afgans laugh at us for humping all the gear over there. I don't know what the answer is but there sure has to be something better in the way of thinking than what were doing. You guys are soldiers not pack mules!!

Heat..

 You need to do a lot of research on this if your going to go out and play hard in it, esp. if your older. You need to condition your bodies to it. We all spend to much time in air conditioning and the heat will get you fast if your not conditioned to it. You have to drink a lot of water and know when to drink the gator aid or it will do as much harm as not drinking water. You drink it "After" not before. Drink water before gator aid after. Good topics keep up the comments.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 14:32:42 (ZULU)

I will be conducting the following courses for the Alabama State Police Academy.  They are open to all Police and are certified by Alabama POST for continuing education credits.  Cost is $275.00 which includes lodging and meals at the academy.

Police Sniper I. 8-12 April.

Police Carbine I.  29 April - 1 May.

Contact Cpl White @ (334)242-8650 or email him @ DWhite@dps.state.al.us for more information.

On the Afghani's laughing at our Yomp soldiers humping all dat weight.  Let em laugh.  The shit comes off real fast when the lead fly's and its hard for the bad guys to have a prolonged fire fight when they run out of bullets.    

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 16:10:44 (ZULU)

I carry a ton of stuff, mainly ammo and water, but I also plan for at least 72 hours with no resupply, because that's real.  A lot of the stuff you haul is environmentally dependant.  Just had a guy get back from Bridgeport, and the load out there is different from 29 Palms.  Was planning on spending the past weekend out in 8" snow and 0 degree temps with 15-20mph winds and that means lots of snivel gear.  The ruck weighed 60lbs, and I carried about 30lbs on my LBV.  I can survive on my LBV, that's how I load out.  I'll be down to a non-secure, 2-mile range radio, but if you're down the ruck, you're going to be on the way to an extract point or friendly lines, most likely anyways.

The biggest bitch is comm gear.  The batteries are a MF.  They're heavy and you have to carry lots of them.  Something like a rechargeable battery with either a LW solar panel or a hand crank could give you lots more battery life IMO.  98% of the time you're just monitoring the net anyways, so what'd be so hard about a LW solar panel (maybe 3'x3') to provide booster power to the radio?

Basic LBV load is 300rds 5.56mm, 40rds 7.62, 6rds HEDP, 2 rds smoke(for marking for CAS), 2 white para flares, 2 M67 frags, 2 HC smoke grenades.  8 qts water+water filter( currently Sweet Water), Primex mini stove(size of a pack of smokes, cold weather only), cammie paint, survial stuff, an MRE, poncho, goretex top, log book w/cheat sheets for CAS, arty, medevac etc, 25' 550 cord, 50' 5mm Spectra rope(emergency rappel or prusik stuff), a locking biner(currently an Omega Jake, good 'biner), 2 spare sets of socks(thorlo), Capilene top(cold weather), some other crap.  Semper Fidelis..Ken M  

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 16:22:37 (ZULU)

Pack Loads: If you can't eat it or kill with it it can be left behind in decent weather. Cold weather I would rather carry it and not use it than be frozen. Tropics are great combat enviornment. Just beans bullets and poncho, two extra pairs of socks, done packing. But always carry 550 cord!

Carry water purification device just in case your out longer than you really wanted to be. You can go with out food but water you must have.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 19:16:40 (ZULU)

Here's a good one to leave you with:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A42754-2002Jan26&notFound=true

Thank God the country has a real leader.

The media are squealing at the fact that our forces are taking casualties.  We are INFLICTING a Hell of a lot more than we are taking.  Bin Laden has been counting on us being too weak kneed to pay the butcher's bill.  If we aren't willing to commit these good men, we're doomed as a nation.  Combat soldiers understand this.  Somebody try to explain it to the idiot Goddamned head line writers.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 20:40:31 (ZULU)

Found the Park TW-1 commonly used by cyclists at LickBike.com and Bikepro.com for $29.95 plus $5.50 shipping.  Not an advertisement...just might save someone some time looking.

David <weldedwelk@twave.net>
- Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 23:19:37 (ZULU)

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 23:47:18 (ZULU)

In this day in time with all the friggin technology on the battlefield (satellites, drones, thermal imaging etc.), why would an operation be called that would land in a hot LZ. I just saw a news snippet about how the guys got caught with their britches down when the hooks tried to land the troops. Evidently a bad guy was hiding behind the building and got off a lucky shot with an RPG. I also saw the type of terrain (essentially more dirt and a building). Why not just drop a daisy cutter or another big ass bomb (hell why not a dozen or so just for overkill) into the LZ, kill the bad guys and THEN land?

Damn sad day for the families and friends, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 00:10:13 (ZULU)

Sponge Bob <ml2826@power-net.net>
Michigan, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 00:25:02 (ZULU)

Mike <offroad_z71@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 01:02:26 (ZULU)

Keep up the good work George.

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 01:04:32 (ZULU)

American casualties are a good sign. It means the military is doing its job.

BY RALPH PETERS

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/?id=105001725

Good article.  Should be read, especially by all who haven't served (no slam intended).  Ralph Peters has.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 01:26:21 (ZULU)

Bill <bilzill@aol.com>
Colo, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 02:00:10 (ZULU)

Where's Al O....

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 03:18:55 (ZULU)

Just done celebrating B-day # 51 with my family and friends. Wife had made a steak dinner, baked potato, salad, greens, and a home made carrot cake for desert. Sorry, she's taken!

Loaded more .308 and am looking for some hard 20 rounds cartridge packs. Paper doesn't cut it, and I'm not totally happy with the plastic stuff that's out there. Will keep looking. Any suggestoins from the group?

Combat Loads: Some of you don't know that I'm a whopping 5' 4" tall. When I went through basic, and later OCS I bled internally for months afterward due to stress on my body. I WANTED to be a Marine! My point is that it's easier for big guys to carry big loads. Where with my basic ruck and add-on's I was pushed to the limit. So much for little guys being better than big guys. We do, however, make smaller targets...;-)

SLA Marshall was correct in his basic combat load being a max of 35 pounds. Unfortunately, new technology and warefare demands new equipment on top of the standard combat load. Don't talk about comm gear...the services have been in the dark ages for years. Case in point...hand held Motorola's that have the range of the PRC-77 family. Don't even talk crypto! I was on the Vinson Implementation team for the Marines. Entirely new and light weight, but commanders refused to use it properly for fear of compromising the system. That's what the KYK-15 Net Controller was designed to do...including re-keying crypto over the air.

The point is, we can go lighter and the technology is there, but the services haven't done a very good job. On the other hand the Advent of the PVS-14, PVS-7A, and PVS-10 have changed night into day and given an environment where the bad guys no longer can hide at night. I'm lucky...I have time on those systems compliments of my contacts in the ORARNG. These are now must have for most and give us the edge.

The down side is that anyone with money can have the equivelent system. Kinda scary to this old Commo and Combat Engineer.

I'm restructuring my own ruck/grab and go kit for my M40A1 system. Will modify so that with the change of ammo and a few easy items it will work for my M4 rifle as well.

No one has mentioned much about patrolling, but it is an art form. I used to love it. To me THAT is what infantry is all about. Small unit tactics.

Guess I'm rambling. You guys have hit a nerve. Besides, it's my birthday, I'm 51, and allowed to ramble.

My best to all of you on this day...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 03:53:35 (ZULU)

Now I ax myself, "SELF" they just got through landing in a hot LZ day before yesterday but now they are taking a backpacking trip into what could have been a cold LZ. I give up. Best I quit trying to use civilian common sense in trying to decipher military sense.

Bolt confused and out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 04:00:39 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 04:41:58 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 04:45:21 (ZULU)

Congrats on the B-day, but your still a puppy at 51. I will turn 54 this fall, and you still are craping recruit chow. He he

Hey, that sounds like a good wife you got there. I gotta brag on my gal a little too. She just finished helping me design and build a new rack for my military rifle collection. Came out pretty good too. Now we want to do something neat with all the bayonets.

The radios I was talking about jumping and humping the other day were the PRC-47 and PRC-41. Remember those heavy bastereds, with those damn wet cell, heavy assed BB-451 batteries?    

Wes, I would love to talk about patrol and small unit tactics. Go ahead and start it off little brother.

No Gooch, my first small unit tactics manual did not say, "First rank kneel, second rank load, third rank fire."

Bolt, I'm sure those boys who landed in that LZ and then making that hump, are asking the same thing.

Semper Fi,

Finger

Jim Reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 05:00:53 (ZULU)

it is a 12-28, IIRC.  A bit of an odd ball and hard to find.

HTH!

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Columbia, SC, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 05:23:25 (ZULU)

Happy B-Day. You and Finger are BOTH puppies.

I've gotten to the age where I say F@#* 'em all but 9. Six for pallbearers, two for road guards, and one to count cadence.

jc (feeling old, only because I am)

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 05:38:57 (ZULU)

George Out.

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 06:56:50 (ZULU)

What's everyone's opinion on a Chandler ?     I'm ready to drop the beans on one.  Does anyone out there have one that can give me any first hand input?  If any of you could give some opinions.......it would be appreciated.   Thanks for everyone's time answering.

Thanks again

Poppa Pump       send to  poppapump_10@yahoo.com

                 (disregard e-mail addy below...using friend's computer)

Big Poppa Pump <tiger_dog1998@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 07:09:50 (ZULU)

My "Ready Ammo" is in elastic loops on my stock pack and my vest.  My immediate replenishment ammo is carried in MTM 20 round boxes. (RM-20-308WIN, color green)  Two of these boxes fit nicely into an M-14 ammo pouch.  They are secure and pretty much weather tight and do not rattle.  For bulk storage I use MTM 50 round boxes. (H-50-RM-308WIN, color green) Each bottom pouch of my Becker Patrol Pack will hold one of these 50 round boxes.  Again they are weather tight and do not allow the ammunition to rattle.  Visit: http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/rifle/rifl.html

Ref: Combat Loads/Patrolling

Some good tips can be found in the "B52 Patrol Tips".  This was an unofficial distribution originating in Viet Nam.  I don't know where this document could be found today but if you can get a copy hold onto it.

Ref: Water Purification

FWIW I've discovered that the bite valve of my Camelback can be removed and the hose fits over the outlet port of my PUR Scout purifier.  This allows a refill without taking the rig off my back.  In situations where water sources might be under surveillance you can crawl up to a secluded spot and pump the bladder full and leave clandestinely.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 11:47:27 (ZULU)

Looking to buy a laptop in the very near future, any suggestions are appreciated.

I hope and pray this country keeps our heads up during our campaign overseas, we've lost a few good men, and the troops need our support now more than ever!  Operation 'Anaconda' is a tough mission in a miserable terrain and my hat is off to the grunts...  GIVE 'EM HELL!!

Read some good posts this week regarding pack weight.  Watched some CNN, blah, saw that it took two GI's to get the radioman back on his feet, looked like he was ruckin' a lot of weight.

out here

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
breezy in, sd, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 13:24:52 (ZULU)

George Gardner even took the time from his busy schedule to answer my questions.

Stopped by Fulton Armory 2 weeks ago....Very friendly and very helpful. Only a mile from work. Talk about luck.......

Thanks Again,

Adam

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, Md, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 13:28:10 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with the newer 5r's Remington is producing if they are still?  Are these barrels held to a higher QC standard than the Stren barrels they are throwing on their production rifles?  

Personally, I think it's a slap in the face to Boots, using 5r in the nomenclature.  A REAL 5r is an Obermeyer, there, you heard it here...  hahh..  some inside info, the reason you don't see more 5r barrels made by barrel shops is out of respect for tha Boots, that's his gig..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
breezy in, sd, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 13:47:56 (ZULU)

  Thanks for filling me in, when you list all the crap you "Have" to carry I see where the weight comes from. I don't necessarly agree with it. I find it hard to believe that today with all the choppers and resupply that you have to carry more than your personal ammo and food, water.

  I know in cold weather the loads would be more but then I also know I would hate not to have something that would save my behind because I was to lazy to hump it. I guess its a no win situation. I seen on the news last night that the boys are still humping big packs.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 14:16:32 (ZULU)

On the plastic ammo boxes, one thing "Too Heavy"  Try this just take the cheap Federal ammo carriers, that hold ten rounds each and seal in zip lock freezer bags.  You can carry more and it is really watewr tite.  One more thing cut of the damm belt loops.  Weight for no good reason.

JR Boots makes a damm fine bbl and so does Mike Rock.  Both are 5R.  KxP makes a similar profile and so does Krieger.  I suspect in this industry of bbl making the lack of folks making 5R's has more to do with the machine than the individual.  My experience is if there is a buck in it someone will steal ideas.  Look how many folks have stolen Badgers Tactical Latch.

On Badgers rings.  These new ones are as close to bullet proof as you can get.  Very good kit.

On Chandler Rifles. Dude you have the money you will get a fine rifle.  You dont like it when you get it twenty guys will line up to buy it from you for what you paid.  What more can be said?

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 14:20:22 (ZULU)

About big packs and resuply...

Even today in these days with lotsa choppers...your unit is not always top priority.

Many times you get dropped by helo's but getting picked up again by them or even a decent resupply, that is the big issue.

While you are on the ground doing your thing, the brass might decide that they got a better need for the choppers somewhere else, so there you are, miles from friendly's with only water and ammo...one day with out clean socks, ok, but if its bad weather and you got a lotta moving by foot, than i kinda like to take care of my feet. Same goes for your ass, 1 day with diry underwear, no problem, but try walking/ running/ fighting with a dirty ass and then afterwards look at your cheeks and inside your thighs. It is al about hygiene and taking care of your self.

My unit never left home without its big Vulcan backpacks, partly due to the fact we only got like 25 choppers, but i heard from American comrades that even the US Army with its mighty large helo fleet does not always get to count on getting resupply or a flight back home by chopper. Furthermore it is not always possible to make use of choppers, most tend to think we Western world boys will always have airsupperiority, maybe, but that does not count for enemy boys with Stingers or even RPG's, just look at how the Chinook was shot down recently.

What i mean to say is, don't take resupply by chopper for granted, and always make sure you got stuff with you to take care of yourself and your m8s, cause nobody else will.

There is a reason why you always see US Marines and Infantry carying there big Alice packs...

2eurocents again,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 15:14:16 (ZULU)

c.f http://www.rockcreekbarrels.com/

John <john@leveron.com>
MO, US of by gawd A - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 15:24:08 (ZULU)

If that means I have to pay extra taxes, or be more diligent in the way I vote, or participate in the local politics... so be it.

Where does this "we have to sustain casualties to win" attitude come from?  

I much prefer "(insert name or rank here), you have a responsibility to make NO mistakes, to employ superior doctrine and always train like your life depends on it, you must be prepared to defend your country with a brilliant mind and superb physical conditioning.... if you do your job well, you will progress in the ranks and enjoy a reasonably comfortable career (on par with the civilians you protect)"  

Forgive my idealism...but I have seen it work in my surroundings and simply cannot take this "accept less" attitude that seems at times to invade our common ethos...accept crap and you will get crap, demand more and you will get more...I'm not preaching , I'm sharing my frustration.

Humans thrive in demanding environments and fail when given permission to do so.

On a different note, one of my firefighters reports for processing into the US Army on March 11, exactly 6 months after Sept 11, 2001.  I will be taking him to the range this weekend to work with a bushmaster AR15 20" HBAR...all costs on me... looking for tips on what to focus on...

you know who <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 15:34:32 (ZULU)

For those looking for references, on patrolling information, may want to look at "The Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaysia". It's the primer that was done in 1955 and with changes to update to current equipment is still the best general work I've seen to date. Out of print and hard to find it's well worth it when you do...

MCI 03.56b Infantry Patrolling and MCI 03.32f Reconnaissance Marine are excellent informational sources, as well.

One of the very best treatise on "lessons learned" is "Reconnaissance and Patrolling Tips of the Trade". This is the collective learning experiences of "Project B-52"(MAC/SOG Vietnam 1970).

All of mine are boot leg copies and I cherish each and very one. The MCI's are available from the Marine Corps Institute. Some have been reprinted by Paladin Press.

Chandler Rifles: Well worth the money, IMHO. I love my 6.5 X .284 Chandler Rifle. It seems like a lot of money, but remember you get a rifle/kit READY TO GO out of the case. When you start adding up all you get it's doesn't seem so bad. Be prepared for an outlay of about $5K and a 12-18 month wait. Call Norm, Jr. and chat...visit the Iron Brigade Armory web site, as well. Note: Chandlers will only build in "proven" accuracy calibers.

George Gardner: George has an enviable reputation. Additionally, he has Eric Reid working for him. Eric built a good number of the M40A1's and A3's the Marines are using. His work is timely and quality is BEYOND REPROACH. I'd look real hard at his "Rock" for a serious rifle.

Jerry Rice: Another 'smith of enviable repute. Undude uses him. Also, check out his flash hider. ATF ruled it not a supressor and it is most interesting. LOOKS like a supressor. Some NICE design work there.

Give JR a call.

What I'm really saying here is it pays to go with a known entity that has a solid reputation. This is NOT a job for the local gun plumber unless they build match rifles, etc. Even then you need to be careful.

The test I use in cost of equipment is "how much is your life worth"?

Buy the very best you can afford and train, train, train.

A Savage in the hands of well trained man is a deadly tool. Perhaps, Chuck Taylor summed it up best when he said; "give a third rate man a first rate weapon and a first rate man a third rate weapon and the better man shall soon have the better weapon". Chuck's seen the elephant and I respect him highly!

Probably babbled enough for this morn...hope this helps get our thread started.

Dave, Gooch-san, Rick, Jim and all want add to sources for information and training? Figured that's a good place to start our discussion.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 16:12:54 (ZULU)

Just heard from a coworker that a SEAL fell out of his chopper while it was trying to dodge an RPG.  When the chopper went to pick him up the bad guys executed him on the spot.  Can anyone confirm this?  I haven't watched CNN or FOX recently but apparently this is one of our 8 casualties from a few days ago.  If this is true, my vote goes to execute all detainees at Gitmo once finished interrogating them.  This same coworker also informed me that one of those detainees will be receiving artificial legs.  WTF???  Nahhhhh, just kill him, bullet is less expensive.

On another note, I'm back in but with the National Guard 2/20th SFGA.  First drill this weekend and will inprocess.  I am keeping my E-5 and with any luck will be attending SFAS within a couple months, hopefully Airborne before hand.  Time to have some fun again!  Yall enjoy the weekend and happy shooting, I'll be having a good time!

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, US - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 16:25:31 (ZULU)

The vile act took place in real time back to headquarters via one of the Predators....

very sad....

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., US of A - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 16:42:47 (ZULU)

Captured American Shot Dead : Reconnaissance video shows Navy SEAL being dragged away alive by enemy fighters after falling out of helicopter; body found hours later  

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,47232,00.html

Also some info at http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA9QCUGGYC.html

As to the Gitmo detainees, let me just say that I [like many] believe they are being treated better than our own field troops.

John

John <john@leveron.com>
MO, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 16:44:58 (ZULU)

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 17:11:02 (ZULU)

Guys, on waterproofing your expensive optics, coms, batteries and battery operated whatevers (or anything you really don't want to get wet at all) . . .  Zip locs are ok for "damp" proofing them. (i.e. toilet paper in ye ole squirrel vest).  No big deal unless you are going to be submerged or swimming for real.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO SWIM THEM however, zip locs will come open from the action of swimming itself and your kit will be covered in water.  It's worse if it is salt water . . .  corrosive.  Learned this one the hard way.  Sometimes, Wal-Mart just don't cut it.  

Water, especially salt water, is the ultimate test of gear, any gear.  Trust me on this one.  Better get a dry bag for the hard core water ops if you ever go there.  www.usia.com  www.watreborne.com

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 17:57:35 (ZULU)

Thanks for the heads up on the New Mexico School.  I've let that one slip under my radar.  FWIW I got my "B52 Tips" along with a nice knife at the RECONDO School(PNCOC) at Ft.Campbell a long while back.

Jim:

I only wish it were possible to conduct military operations without casualties but it isn't.

Taliban:

I offer a quote from "Aliens II"...."I say we nuke'em from orbit."

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 18:37:37 (ZULU)

Marco we use to always have a change of underwear in the field, I changed with John, Bill changes with Joe,  Mike changes with Harry, etc. etc.     Problem fixed.  Next order of business.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 18:40:27 (ZULU)

Chandler is a great rifle and if you want one by all means you will be happy.  I am pretty loyal guy who knows when he has a great thing going.  Norcal and GA Precision will get all my money for custom work, until I geta  rifle from either that wont hold 1/4 to 1/2moa groups from them. So far all of the rifles by either meet that need. Thats said it does not stop me from telling guys Chandlers are great rifles.

I have talked with both Norm and Norm Jr. and cant say enough good about them either.  Just depends on what you want.

Hey on a big plus for Chandler, anyone notice they now offer the new stock from SubMinute Solutions.  The call it the Chandler Stock.  Paul at subminute did a great job designing that.  We should all give Paul a big round of drinks!

MIke Miller <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 18:47:20 (ZULU)

Mike Miller <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 18:51:28 (ZULU)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 19:11:13 (ZULU)

"Where does this "we have to sustain casualties to win" attitude come from?"

Agreed, no pissing.

If you're referring to the Ralph Peters article, what he says is that casualties on our part are the result of and indication of agressively seeking contact with the enemy.  Taking the fight to him.

Agreed, in an ideal world we wouldn't suffer casualties, hell in an ideal world we wouldn't even have war. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.  Try walking in the shoes before you declare all caualties are the result of poor planning, leadership, training and preparation.  Look at a perfect civilian analogy (yes boys & girls police & firemen are civilians), Sept. 11, 2001.  Good cops & firemen died cause they "rushed to the sound of the guns", God bless them.  And because they did, fewer folks died.  Von Clauswitz (sp?) said it best with his "no plan survives first contact."  Face it, contact on the ground always has & always will mean caualties.  Of course we could just stand way back and use nukes (the "glass parking lot" option).  Don't know about you, but I don't want to go there.

Read "We Were Soldiers Once, And Young".  Col. Moore's men were well led and well trained.  They gave better than they got, but good men still died.

Yeah, there are a lot of folks (in & out) just going through the motions, but there are a lot that play for real also. Those folks need support and relief from the CYA bunch that always seems to defy gravity and rise to the top.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 19:48:06 (ZULU)

http://call.army.mil/homepage/newsltr.htm

Particularly interesting, regarding the patrolling posts earlier are:

http://call.army.mil/products/ctc_bull/1-88/toc.htm

-and-

http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/2-88/toc-2.htm

The CALL Homepage is:

http://call.army.mil/homepage/products.asp

and the main products page is:  http://call.army.mil/homepage/products.asp

Mucho good stuff here.

Later,

DA

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Neb, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 19:52:55 (ZULU)

Fellow Rosterfarians,

I made the following snipercountry.com search engine for purely personal gain, but realize that some of you may get some use out of a search engine that covers all of the vast content of SC.

It's at http://leveron.com/john/sc/

I use it mostly to look for old posts from the roster, but it covers all of the reviews, tips, articles, etc. as well [actually every public page on SC].

Feel free to send me any feedback on this, I know it's bare bones but it works well for me.  Just trying to give a little back to everyone.

John

John <john@leveron.com>
Mid Missouri, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 20:12:12 (ZULU)

I found out a long time ago in a land far, far away that an enemy round doesn't care how good you are, how good a shape you are in, what type of equipment you have, who your commander is, what training you've had, how fast your run, how high you can jump or what your political, religous or sexual preferences are.

I've seen too many good men get killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  INCOMING!!!!!!!!!!!!

God Bless and God help our troops in Afganastan.  I salute them all.

Rambosky.  Over............

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mountain, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 20:27:52 (ZULU)

 Well said, you can be the best, just like the Navy SEAL, and fall out of a dam chopper and get killed.

 You will have men killed in any kind of action be it by the enemy or accident. When you put that many men in one spot with all the shit flying around someone is going to get hurt. War by its nature is a dangerous business.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 20:42:44 (ZULU)

Guys, I'm reading "Holding the Zero" by Gerald Seymour.  It's great.  I'll do a review when I'm finished.  Gotta have a .338LM now.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 21:02:59 (ZULU)

Marius <bpwasha@sprynet.com>
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 21:13:08 (ZULU)

could come back and bite me in a previous post.

Rick B , I am a conservative with no combat experience.

I accept responsibility for what I wrote and my opinion remains unchanged.  I did not say that people died

this past week due to poor leadership... I have no reliable way of knowing how they died...

I do not advocate "backing down" in Afghanistan because someone got killed.  I advocate redoubling our

determination and drive to win, from the soldier in the field to the civilian at home.  I have no desire

what-so-ever to dishonor the cause those men gave their lives for.

What I intend to communicate is that accepting that men must die in battle is not OK.  I feel that

communicating that death is an inevitable consequence of a dangerous endeavor is wrong.  If one man dies

because another did not train hard enough or did not take his job serious enough, is that OK?  What is the

acceptable level of training or attention to detail when your buddy is the life in the balance?

I watched on TV as the World Trade Center collapsed and said out loud "that shouldn't have happened so

fast".  At the time, I had similar training to the folks making command decisions on that scene.  

There were opportunities missed that cost good men their lives..some on scene and some that required

research months prior.  What standard should we set for men responsible for the lives of those under them?

Nothing will bring those men back, but if we say "men must die in order that....." and take the loss in

stride, what have we learned?  How will we avoid it the next time..

Anyone that says every one of those firefighters, paramedics and cops lost in the WTC "had to die", or

"could not have been saved by one inspired man with the proper drive and initiative" is absolutely DEAD

WRONG.  

History shows that casualties are at times a consequence of poor leadership, poor equipment, poor

planning, poor conditioning or just bad luck.  I don't accept any of these situations as inevitable...a

leader possessed with the correct amount of drive can overcome them all, INCLUDING THE LAST.

In summary, my statement is:

Leaders of the future must be held to the standard of perfection, Men who have sacrificed in the past

Should be honored, not second guessed.

Jim MItchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 21:47:18 (ZULU)

Ref patrolling,our CSM useta say "patrolling is the bread and butter of the infantry,you are in an infantry unit and you WILL patrol to my satisfaction".It is an art, done properly,it is to deny enemy the ground, it is to gain information and a heap of other stuff.It can be bloody hard work given that it can be several days in duration and as we aint got no steeeenkin helos we had to patrol to caches for resup.We had a helo once but it turned out to be a "notional" one like a lot of other good shit we thought we were goin to get,and small arms fire prevented it from landing so,just for something different we had to patrol to a cache.Ref bhd small arms fire can & will fubar helo resup or extraction

The plan will only work until the first contact,on a good day.Then it comes down to "actions on" sop's and training and guts.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 21:52:25 (ZULU)

It shot some with these crappy conditions cuase I could get a way.  I shot two 3/4" groups, and two 1 1/2" groups at 200 yds. Then at 300yds. I shot two 1 3/4" groups and a 6 shot 2 1/4" group. The other groups were 3 shots. I think it will hold 1/2 MOA if the wind would have at least been steady. I shot several shots through one hole at 100 yds. All in all I'm happy but this was a quick test session and I don't feel this is a fair account of what it will do. When I have time I will give it a better test. I would have no second thought about getting another rifle from George. In fact I know I'll get another one if I didn't bother him too much. I said I wouldn't but I lied. I'll let you know how the next session goes. It is a difinite keeper. Remember I am NOT a RIFLE SHOOTER I shoot pistols but this is fun.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 22:23:29 (ZULU)

Jim, I think one of the main things that pisses off most that have had to be there and make decissions that effected lives is when someone comes around and tries to find fault, or an answers as to why someone dies in a combat situation. The fact remeains that whenever you take up arms you run the chance of being hit.  Your time is up and its up.  You can train and be lead by the best, like our forces are, and still die.  Nothing, no education, leadership, training, or technology will ever change that!

This may not be a good anology but combat is like a game in which, everyone loses.  It was once said thet " A Soldier is the last to wish for war" Remember he has the most to lose.

Rick has been there and knows the true cost.  The great lives stopped short and damage to ones that survive.  They are brothers alive and dead.  They have no stomach for second guesssing, monday mourning quarterbacks or bean counters.  They just want support, equipment and to be allowed to do their jobs.  When someone says "No one should die" It just shows the lack of stomach the US has for a fight. RVN memories all over again.

If you get in a fight you will notice some damage at the end no matter how much you wooped up on the other side.  All the old guys here have scars from various scraps.  Helps remind us of why not to fight unless we have to.

Good Bless the men who have paid in the past few months.

Undude/Mike

It costs to win and pray to God we have to spend very little in this but we always have to pay.

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 22:30:35 (ZULU)

Jim, I think one of the main things that pisses off most that have had to be there and make decissions that effected lives is when someone comes around and tries to find fault, or an answers as to why someone dies in a combat situation. The fact remeains that whenever you take up arms you run the chance of being hit.  Your time is up and its up.  You can train and be lead by the best, like our forces are, and still die.  Nothing, no education, leadership, training, or technology will ever change that!

This may not be a good anology but combat is like a game in which, everyone loses.  It was once said thet " A Soldier is the last to wish for war" Remember he has the most to lose.

Rick has been there and knows the true cost.  The great lives stopped short and damage to ones that survive.  They are brothers alive and dead.  They have no stomach for second guesssing, monday mourning quarterbacks or bean counters.  They just want support, equipment and to be allowed to do their jobs.  When someone says "No one should die" It just shows the lack of stomach the US has for a fight. RVN memories all over again.

If you get in a fight you will notice some damage at the end no matter how much you wooped up on the other side.  All the old guys here have scars from various scraps.  Helps remind us of why not to fight unless we have to.

Good Bless the men who have paid in the past few months.

Undude/Mike

It costs to win and pray to God we have to spend very little in this but we always have to pay.

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 22:30:36 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 22:47:18 (ZULU)

You can't have a war where all of one side dies, and the other side doesn't get a scratch (unless you send the Marines to attack the girlscout camp!)...   In a war, any war... no one wins, it's just that one side looses much more than the other.

That's why wise (read "Old") men try to avoid war, but are prepared for wars started by younger, stupid men!

Nor can you build a 110 story skyscraper that won't come down under any circumstances... it is just NOT possible.  It is amazing that the buildings stood up that long, considering that they were hit with a few million pounds of fuel at 350 mph.  We are not allowed to protect steel columes with asbestos anymore, so they melt and buckle... the amount of time that they stood under that heat is testiment of the quality of the design.

-

FireDude. (aka Rob1)...

... and on the west coast, they'd be speaking Japanese!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 23:02:03 (ZULU)

Happy B'Day.  Nice to see another good guy who was born in March.  You are indeed a "young pup".  I hit Medicare on Friday!  That's 65 for the kids on here.  Should have taken better care of myself; but would have missed too much fun. ;-)

John Leveron,

Search engine looks like a great idea.  Thanks.

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 00:20:01 (ZULU)

War and death don't care whether or not you have a long (SF) tab, a short (Ranger) tab, a SEAL Trident, a Screaming Eagle, or crossed 10th Mountain bayonets on your shoulder.  Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.  

Soldiers and sailors don't wake up in the morning and think, "I wonder what I'll fuck up this morning to get myself killed."  Cut those young men some slack that they know their business -- it's what we pay them to do, and they try to do it very, very well.  We do exercises every day to remind us that before you can be hard and talk shit you have to be humble.  No better way than to get your ass handed to you on an exercise before heading to the two-way shooting gallery -- hopefully you won't ever make that mistake again.

Talking big rucks goes back to step one:  Mission Analysis based on METT-TP.  Your ruck packing list is going to be different when you're fighting at 10,000 feet at 35 degrees, in wet snow, the way to work is a two hour flight by Chinook at night, and you won't see it again for five days.  No running surface water and no Domino's Pizza.  It's not like you're defending your own back 40, where you can fill canteens from the nearest stock tank, and drive down to Piggly Wiggly for groceries when you're hungry.

Every Apache providing CAS was hit.  It ain't academic, it's combat.

The job is to find them, fix them, and kill them.  They've proved by flying planes into buildings filled with non-combatants that they deserve no quarter.

Well we've found them.  Now comes the hard part.  Combat without casualties is a pipe dream.  A cornered rat armed with an AK or RPG can get lucky.

You are going to see or hear of lots of SF and infantry action in this war.  It's what grunts do.  Remember that armed human beings are the hardest animals in the world to hunt and kill, and they're not stupid either.

Sinister Dave <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona, Looks like Afghanistan - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 00:31:06 (ZULU)

Kimbershooter <Sundance@bikerider.com>
Disputanta, Va., USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 00:38:02 (ZULU)

Seuss <samiam@netrax.net>
Middle of, PA, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 00:49:45 (ZULU)

You or I will probably never realize that moment of truth our guys overseas deal with.  I couldn't imagine, this is dangerous beyond dangerous.  Everyone wants to kill you.  Everyone.

War is hell, and people will die.  No life is expendable, but the cause takes precedence, preservation.  We can not bug out because someone might get hurt or killed.  That's what happens in battle.  All we can do is try to limit the enemy's opportunities to take us out.  There is no way we won't lose a man, these are heavies, they will fight to the death to their last man.   Our troops accept that risk with every step they take on the battlefield, and we will prevail.  

Damn it looks cold in Afghan..  Do you guys think they'd let me send a box of those 'handwarmer' pouches?  

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
breezy in, sd, - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 01:11:33 (ZULU)

Chandler makes a fine rifle and I almost ordered one myself. I decided to go with George Gardner of GA Precision and I am glad that I did.

For one thing, when you order a rifle form George you know who builds it ; it's George. Second his turn around time can be six weeks or less, I got mine in four. Third thing is, George is not as famous "yet" as the Chandlers so his prices are very fair. Im not sugesting that he would jack his prices up as he becomes more famous, but he could, and maybe should, and if he doesn't than you might have to wait a while to get one, so you better order it now. His workmanship is flawless and his rifles are deadly accurate.

Tom B.

"nice shot"  

Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 01:40:04 (ZULU)

I stand corrected on the Eric Reid issue. It sounds like that would be just another good reason to go with GA Precision.

Tom B.

"nice shot"

Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 02:09:16 (ZULU)

 300ydClean

Chuck <Ballsack34@aol.com>
Troy, Hey,it finally warmed up, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 02:48:05 (ZULU)

Tom B <tburrows@tampabay.rr.com>
Fl, Polk - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 03:29:52 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, out.

PS..On this Perfection thing you all have been kicking around. The standard is perfection, as William H. has stated. But there has only been one perfect man born thus far, we all know the story or his ending. This only proves being perfect will not keep you from a meeting with Mr Death.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 04:07:14 (ZULU)

If you hold leaders to a true standard of perfection, then you will not have anybody leading.  Or you will have the peacetime military problem, where the standard already IS perfection in EVERYTHING, from gate guard to post detail to barracks inspection to recordkeeping to, oh yes, tactical training.  The problem is that the military does not do a very good job of separating those who are good tactically in the field from those who excel administratively or in areas with nothing to do with combat.  Success in the relatively few chances at realistic tactical problems is fleeting, often overlooked, and sometimes missed because, though you did everything right, luck was against you and you were beaten.  It is much easier to judge on inspection scores, appearance, range qualification, barracks inspection results, etc. because those are quanitfiable.  It takes a true war to separate out the killers (10%) from the fillers (40%) and fodder (50%).

In combat, you will take casualties.  No matter how good you are, how much better your weapons, how many more of you there are, how much better your training.  The other guy has a brain, and can get lucky just like you do.  If you look at the kill ratio in Afghanistan it is astounding, and is a credit to the overall strategy and the young men implementing it.

As to the casualty aversion thing, I have only ever seen that in the press.  They have an insatiable business need to fill all those hours on all those cable channels with chatter, much of it mindless and uninformative from talking heads with NO military or leadership experience.

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 04:44:21 (ZULU)

According to USGI print # 7790189, Receiver, M14 rifle, page 3

states, and I quote

   No. 12 (.216)-32NEF-2B

for thoes who are less engineeringly inclined, thats a 12-32 class 2 fit.

Badgersix out!

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 05:33:14 (ZULU)

I am not nor have I served in our armend forces, however, there is a great family tradition that I do not intend to let end at my feet. I pose a question to you. If good men did not die from time to time in defense of our nation, our freedom, and our liberty, how long would it be before these things were taken for granted? I am not saying that this is a good thing, but that it should be seen for what it is. A constant reminder that nothing is free, and for the greatest of things, sometimes the greatest of prices must be paid. Another question to illustrate the point, without death, who would ever truely cherish life? I am not trying to make a personal attack as some others have, just asking a two questions that struck me as relevant. A good day to all.

S. Ashcraft

Just got to your next post and would like to point out that no man ever was (save one), or will be perfect, and therefore that is a ludicrous standard to ask any man to hold. While I agree that it should be the end goal, it is reality that it is unattainable, and as such acceptable failures should be seen as learning opportunities, rather than failure. Bad luck is bad luck, train for it if you want, it can and will still kill you.

S. Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
Fort Worth, TX, US of A - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 08:18:54 (ZULU)

And as Thomas Jefferson said "The tree of liberty sometimes needs to be replenished with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Kick more Ass troops...  God Bless...

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 11:48:58 (ZULU)

We were just a small little SOG group, our team was top notch, training, equipment Etc.  We had extensive Intel both S-3 and local.  The mission went like clockwork, 12 KIAs, 2 captured.  On our way back to the LZ for extraction, 2rd man back from point stepped on a mine that was probably put there God knows when.  Could have been from when the French were there for all I know.

We did EVERYTHING right.  In the end, one man died on the spot, two wounded.  Mr. Murphy was active that day.  That's the way combat is.  The trail was used every day, it was monsoon season and the mine may have just washed down from somewhere higher up, who knows.

Combat is breaking things and killing people and the killing is done on both sides.  It doesn't matter how well trained you are or who is leading you.  Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw.  That day I was lucky, the Doc said 1" to the right and the piece that hit me would have made for 2 dead that day.  When Mr. Murphy and Lady Luck are out playing, no ones chance is any better than the next fellows.

You can rest assured, some on both sides will die.

TreverSlyFox <treverslyfox@greendragoninn.zzn.com>
Houston, Missouri, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 12:18:53 (ZULU)

I have to disagree with the following statement:

"When Mr. Murphy and Lady Luck are out playing, no ones chance is any better than the next fellows."

Intense realistic training, as much so as is possible, will increase your odds. Doubt it, try trapsing around a combat zone like an elephant and see how long you live. Or you can choose to conduct youself in a the manner of a trained professional. I realize the part that luck plays, but also that there are things that can be done to help luck out a little.

In the scenario you used, that was s*@# luck at its finest. But lives hang as often as not on the reactions you make and of those around you.

I realize that I am open to criticism having not been there and done that, but a little common sense and some reading as well as some long talks with the family men folk have given me a relatively good handle on some stuff.

S. Ashcraft

S. Ashcraft <tx__cowboy@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 12:37:32 (ZULU)

 That statement is so true.  When I enlisted, I had a multi-year run of success and good fortune.  I took to soldiering like a fish to water.  I was in my element.  But I was also immature and naive.  In time I attended OCS etc. and found myself leading a rifle platoon of my own in the 101st.  I was golden.

 One day while on DRF we were thrust into an EDRE (Emergency Deployment Readiness Exercise).  Mine was the lead platoon of the lead company for the Battalion TF.  For the first three days we were good to go on every eval.  On the fourth day I F#%ked up in a big way.  This was a career threatening, life altering event.  I was counseled on the scene by the 18th ABN Corps commander.  I'm here to tell you I was changed by that event.  A new sober attitude came to me.  I learned "humble" the hard way.

 Had that exercise been combat I would have joined most of my battalion in Arlington.

out  

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 12:43:52 (ZULU)

stan <snfcaniglia@msn.com>
ohio, - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 13:21:30 (ZULU)

Glad to be here

stan

stans <snfcaniglia@msn.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 13:33:49 (ZULU)

AB

Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Ark., U.S. of (Smile when you say that, Mister) A. - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 14:06:55 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 14:14:06 (ZULU)

"Surprise, surprise!"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,47338,00.html

Bad idea for either side to openly taunt enemy forces; "if you can see them, then they can see you, and you're definitely in range."

John

John <john@leveron.com>
Mid Missouri, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 14:55:08 (ZULU)

The State of New York just issued a license to operate a motor vehicle to Andy.........Be careful out there. ;-)

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 15:00:05 (ZULU)

Whos got info on the 300 WSM?  New project George and I are working on.  The rifle is designed to take off where the "Rock" left off at 800 yards.  I wanted a rifle that weighed about the same as the Rock, just as tough and was good to 1200 yards.  George suggested the 300 WSM.  He told me the 175s will push over 3000fps and the 190's 2900plus.  

So here it is:

Remington SA 700

SubMinute Solutions Adjustable A1 Stock

HS Precision Floor Metal with Detachable Magazine (Only other than Remington Floor metral that works with 300WSM)

Mike Rock 1x11.25 twist 5R BBl, 24" Fluted about a #6 taper

Badger Base and Rings

US Optics 2.5-12x44, 1/2moa per click 45moa per turn Army SOTIC Series Scope

The new rifle will be called "The Rock-et"

Now if any of you have lots of load data I would appreciate some of it being emailed so I can have some starting point.  When I started with the 338 Ultra Doc King sent me his data and I found his and my end results were a perfect match.  I still had to do all the work up but he saved me hundreds of hours. I hope someone here can do this on this project also.

Thanks Mike

Kevin, if he starts for California let me know and I will get back in my hide.

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 15:18:38 (ZULU)

First off, if I wrote ANYTHING that suggests I want to second guess or diminish the deeds being done in Afghanistan and other places across the globe by the armed forces of a number of countries in cooperation with US interests... it is a mis-communication.  Please DO NOT attribute that sentiment with me, it is not my perspective at all.

Second, I know men die due to random causes, more often in a combat zone than in civilian life, but I realize it happens.

Third.  If our military exists to "look good in uniform", I could understand folks here interpreting my call to perfection the way they did.  A clean uniform and solid CYA is not what I was talking about... History shows us that during war, good leaders "manifest" whereas, during peace-time, CYA and administrative flair may be over-valued...this is exactly the issue I am talking about... it doesn't have to be that way, raise the damn standard before it is directly needed...

When the "gold standard" is perfection, you cannot attain it and thus, you must spend your entire life improving...When the standard is anything less, someone, somewhere, will tell you that they have finished learning....or at least they will think it to themselves...

I call that complacency. Complacency works hand in hand with Mr Murphy... we are all victims of complacency...if you think not, you aren't looking hard enough in that mirror.

For those that said, &#8220;walk a mile in those shoes before you develop an opinion&#8221;...  I an somewhat cautious about how and when I comment on subjects, I am often nebulous when talking about subjects because I do not have directly applicable experience to back up what I say...but, often I do have related experience which has the potential to be applied across specializations.. The civilian emergency service regularly "borrows" concepts borne in combat, even though most of us have not been there and done that...  the concept is no less valid.

Over the course of the last few days, I have written several messages to this board based on my real life experiences.  The point of my comments is to illustrate that we are all in some way participants in setting the stage used to prepare young men to go in harms way...comments like "we have to accept that there will be deaths with missions such as this one" or "plans all fall apart after the first contact" communicate more than one message, dependant on the context of the recipient... for an old war horse, who knows the trade, it means the obvious (and is thus, stating the obvious, redundant)... for would be leaders, such as the Kevin Mussack of several years back, leading his platoon for the second time, in practice, it may mean something entirely different.  I want the young Kevins (leaders) of our army to know the real dope before they hit combat... I want them up late, sweating over a plan to go in harms way... I want them to think out that third contingency, so it flows like water the next day... I want them to exceed expectation, to rise to the challenge, to win.

Bad luck is not always bad luck and good planning CAN prevent some of it from hitting your team.  I have saved men that were not save-able, I have walked in those shoes and I do know what I am talking about.  No disrespect intended.

With regards to the WTC footage from the foreign news crew..I have seen some of it and found it dull and difficult to interpret.  You need some number of years in the fire service to really get what is going on...to the layman, it will not impress....No doubt, the news will cut it to pieces and provide out-of-context snippets that generate even more confusion...What was done there on that day was very brave and selfless, the leaders were effective and professional under extreme conditions.

Catshooter &#8211; There is a significant volume of material available to motivated leaders in the fire service regarding the impact of heat on high rise buildings.  I don&#8217;t believe the lack of asbestos as an applicant to the structural steel had much to do with the failure. The prevailing fire service knowledge at the time suggested that the building would have either fallen down right away or stayed standing for many more hours&#8230; what happened was a complete surprise to a large number of very highly educated veteran fire officers.  Buildings of predictable behavior are &#8220;tributes&#8221;&#8230;the WTC does not fit that category in my mind.  Please contact me directly if you would like more info on the topic.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 15:27:27 (ZULU)

For those of you who have not been in combat most of you seem to be able to seperate fact from fiction.  Your support is apprciated.

For the rest of you who have not been in combat but think you have the answers, well just keep reading, watch TV and go to the movies.  That was one of the reason I fought in Vietnam in 1968 for.  Your right to say what you want when you want to and watch TV and go to the movies............

Rambosky.    OVER.........

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mountain, NC, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 15:36:14 (ZULU)

Jim a liberal? Well he did vote for Al Gore... or maybe that was my other friend Jim.

Paul J. Martoccia <pmartoc@sprynet.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 16:10:12 (ZULU)

All, thanks to those who've sent me feed back on the search engine.

Due directly to the feedback, I've enlarged the size of the "results text" to be more readable.  There is also now a link to a "Tips / Howto" guide that will let you get more relevant results.

I'm surprised, but there have gotta be a -lot- of lurkers here. Over 150 unique net addresses have used it so far.  Thanks,

John

John <john@leveron.com>
search engines r' us, - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 16:36:25 (ZULU)

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the sucess of liberty."

             John F. Kennedy

"Use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction upon the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

             Gen. George S.Patton

"They drew first blood."

             Rambo, John J.

Rambosky.  OVER........

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
KingsMountain, NC, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 17:26:31 (ZULU)

Guys, I've been a cop for 15 years, and been on the street all that time.  I've seen good men go under for nothing more than being there at the time. Before this, I've seen the green tracers punching through my helicopter (all you mossy-horned critters know what that means), but for all that, it wouldn't occure to me to criticize or offer my .02 to those who are on the pointy end.  I read how some say "I haven't been in the service, but...." Guys, don't.  If you haven't given birth, don't talk about episiotomies.  If you haven't eaten lizard, don't talk about how they wiggle going down.  If you haven't had your rectum start sucking your flight suit up the large colon, don't chime in with your opinion on what IP to use on a hot LZ. It's better dto keep your mouth shut, and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.  

Howa rules......

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 17:30:49 (ZULU)

This having been to combat is a nice badge to wear and I don't mean no disrespect but it's overrated according to most of the honest combantants I've talked with. Get lucky and come home, is the theme most have radiated to me. None said it was because they were smart or well trained or well armed for that matter. Most said it was  because all the shells hit someone else. Each and everyone I've ever talked with said it was a miracle they survived!

and further by God more!

Some of the bravest men I know are medical personel and firemen. Combat bedamned, at least soldiers have weapons to defend themselves. Try facing an explosion with a 1.5" firehose in your hand.  Hell, I'll wind up in the same situation Jim is I guess but so be it. I kept quiet for a whole day.

Don't nobody get twisted off cause this ain't aimed at anyone.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 18:03:34 (ZULU)

Seems to be a lot of "second guessing" about military ops, etc. A word of advice. If you haven't been there you CAN'T know how it feels. Please keep guesses to yourself.

There are some things I NEVER want to feel again.

Don't second guess the command structure. The are human, too. You have no idea what hardships they may be working under. Their job is to get it done!

New MOLLE gear: This back from a young Marine returned to CONUS. The unit was issued MOLLE gear prior to mount out. NONE of it survived the operation intact. His unit HATES the stuff.

Enough pontificating from this old Marine.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 18:18:10 (ZULU)

For those of you that fought for my (our) collective freedom, I apologize for any offense, it was not my intent.  Sorry for the uproar.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 18:30:58 (ZULU)

A-stan:  Anybody else think that this looks like awesome mortar country?  I've seen 60's and 81's, but does anybody know if the airbourne guys have the 120mm mortar in use?  Seems like that it'd be the cat's ass since getting 155's up there is out of the question.

Since we're doing quotes, here's my pick:

 "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters." -- Ghengis Khan (circa 1226

Get some, Army grunts.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M  

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 19:52:22 (ZULU)

"Mr. Wales, we have something in this country called justice".  "Well Mr. Carpetbagger, we have something in these parts we call a Missouri boat ride"

                               Eastwood - Outlaw Josey Wales

"I'm a real cop, that's a real badge and this is a real f23king gun"

                               Mel Gibson - Lethal Weapon            

Gotta love Hollywood.  

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 21:12:36 (ZULU)

I just got a quick look.  Missed the dialogue and what branch the guys were.  Keyed on the rifles.  Figured Army.  God love 'em.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 21:28:52 (ZULU)

   "Its not the size of the dog in the fight,

    its the size of the fight in the dog."

   "Dont EVER give up."

   The last one was quoted by the mayor

   of Hiroshima "What the F*** was that"

Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 21:35:44 (ZULU)

That's a crime in Texas mister.  If folks swim in that pond, why that raises it to a felony.

Well guys, seems we've sniped the living hell out of Jim Mitchell.  How's about we get off his ass ?

Hugs and kisses everybody from your local body count elitist.  

He hee.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 21:36:11 (ZULU)

It's a shame that we are bickering with each other.  I for one truly respect and admire firemen, medics, emergency responders, police officers and military who hold themselves to a high level of training and ideals.  We all need you, we need each other.  

The professions listed above are demanding and dangerous.  If you are fighting a fire or trying to save someones life or responding to a burglary in progress it takes a highly trained professional.  We should all be respectfull of each other and on the same team.  

I might need a medic or a firefighter one day.  :)

Rambosky    OVER.............

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mountain, NC, USA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 22:07:44 (ZULU)

 I think Medic Jim's attoned for his wording (combining universally comprehensive thought and word can be tricky on the Roaster riiiight?).

 Remember the Undude battles with Marco (right?), and a host of about a thousand other psychic wars here?????

You can betcher damn Bippy he's seen more horror in a year than most of us do in a lifetime.

speaking of which (horror)

Medic Jim, Hows that ggg, gaaa,  gggggaaaaaas powered .260 rifle shooting? ;-)

OH BEHAVE!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 22:46:29 (ZULU)

******This is a m30 military bore sighter. It comes in the original factory hard case with all nomenclature still on the case. Also includes batteries and tech manual. Has 4 bore mandrels...2 for 5.56mm 1 for 7.62 and 1 for 50 cal. the mount is marked for the following 7 settings...1 m24 rifle sniper scope. 2 iron sights m249 3. iron sights m16a1/a2/m4 4. iron sights m60 mg, pvs-4 m16a1/a2/m5 5. pvs-4 m249. 6. pvs-4 m60mg. 7. tvs-5 m2 m60mg. Also includes original lens cleaning equipment.******

Shootem staight,

drmarc

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USofA - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 22:58:58 (ZULU)

-

Stan...

As to primer pocket prep... in the average target rifle, you will get no benifit from it other than peace of mind (knowing that you didn't overlook anything).  It should be done if you have a riffle that is shooting groups of 0.20", or better CONSTANTLY!

-

UnDude-ski... I would give a LOT of thought about going to a long action for a 300WSM... look at the case, and see how deep a 190SMK will be seated down in the "powder room".  This is a very similar situation as the .284 Win... they make nice hunting rifles in a short action, but anyone that is in the know, will build a longrange .284 on a long action, and cut the throat so it will chamber a bullet seated out in the case... also, the extra room (that the bullet ISN'T taking up), will allow loads about 8% to 10% higher, with the attending higher velocities.  Ask George if I'm steering you wrong!!

But my 300WM will beat up your 300WSM all day... HA!  :))

-

About Medic Jim... I think all he is "guilty" of, is a desire for there to not be the stupid mistakes of past wars and conflicts... Mogadishu, our "Naval Invasion" of Haiti, the total cluster f**k in VN...

... and perhaps he is guilty of a lack of understanding on modern skyscraper design vs building an "affordable" building that can be rented at the prevailing rates.  Like cars. you can have a "safe" car, or a "cheap" car, but you can't have a "Safe-cheap" car.

But his heart is in the right place.  He sees lots of bloody people, many that were avoidable, and I do understand what he means.

I know him, have shot with him, and would be glad to shoot with him again... he ain't no steeenkin liberal.  Jus' don't let him near your bolt gun with a hammer ;)))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 23:34:54 (ZULU)

As for more quotes:  "When you get in a knife fight, be prepared to get cut".  One of my Karate instructors.  And, "a sucking chest wound is natures way of telling you to take it easy."- Murphy's laws of combat.   Really came to mind when I was laying in a hospital bed after whooping up on a guy after I caught 5" of steel in my sternum.

And finaly, "AMMO! Providing the enemy the opportunity to die for his country"

I'm out.

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
Dela-Where?, - Thursday, March 7, 2002, at 23:51:33 (ZULU)

Moi in a battle?

Me, little old dutch wooden shoe boy, holding finger in the dike, make love not war, living in a windmill, amsterdam pot smoking police officer with tullips behind his ears kinda nice guy, in a battle?

Not likely, been part of way to many battle's where only the bad guys were allowed to shoot and all i was allowed to do was curse and hug my kevlar...

PeteR, unless i have forgotten about it, or it must have been a long time ago or of no importance, but i do not recall me having a fight with the Undude...hell, am having way to much fun with MR M&M's sling for me to pick a fight with him...

But i agree with you, Jim should be allowed to say whats on his mind, even though he shoots a AR10T, and we all know that an AR10T is just a PSG-1 wanna-bee and even on its best day it can not stand in the shadow of my PSG-1...

baboemmm...301,302,303...ppffffiieeuuwww....BOOOMMM!!

"INCOMING!!!"

Marco

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
Looking for his freeking kevlar??, and hugging the ground..., NL - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 00:03:54 (ZULU)

I'm a career Firefighter/EMT/HazMat Tech as well as being a former Marine Corps Grunt so I also know about draging an inch and a half into a fire. Neither sitution is risk free and the pucker factor is high. But at least with a fire you can just suround and drown if it gets hairy and it doesn't shoot out at you. :)

Jim, thanks for the apology. Hatchet's buried let's move on. You can't stay mad at a fellow Rosterfarian for long anyways. ;) If we did we'd never talk to anyone and this board would dry up. Like Lito said, just stay away from my bolt with that hammer at the Carlos match this year.

Semper Fi!

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, March 8, 2002, at 00:49:18 (ZULU)

QUOTE:   " E.T. is living proof that napalm sticks to children of ALL worlds!"

Adam

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, Md, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 01:02:49 (ZULU)

glad to be hear

stan

stan <snfcaniglia@msn.com>
ohio, - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 01:28:47 (ZULU)

I appreciate what Jim and others have voiced. I certainly don't have an idea what high risk firefighting is like, so I'll keep my mouth shut. What Jim was alluding to, I believe, was that we all take risks, and because of that, are a band of brothers...I agree.

Take the gloves off...group hug!

No more urinating in each others oatmeal, wheaties, ham and eggs, etc.

Any of you with experience with the Armalite AR-50? I'm thinking about it...that or a .338 Lapua. Need something with stopping power to shoot sage rats with...;-)

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 03:01:09 (ZULU)

I will finallly get a chance to shoot it on Monday with Undude.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 03:32:15 (ZULU)

I wonder if you know who said that?

Rob1; It's not a tough choice. I'd rather drown than be shot!  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com >
- Friday, March 8, 2002, at 04:23:30 (ZULU)

I talked with a guy from a local gunbuilder up here in the NW. He said that he got an order for 30 Remington based 300WM on the 1st of November, and they had to be delivered by the 30th. These guys wear black watchcaps too.

Wes...

How come last time I mentioned that I wanted to build a 338LM, you looked at me like I was crazy?

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 04:37:00 (ZULU)

 I'm in country feet dry at my new home for the next few months. I hate deployments like the plague. At least I aint living in a tent this time. Gone to do the business at hand. Festus out

festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
- Friday, March 8, 2002, at 07:22:48 (ZULU)

I have an AR-50 (don'cha remember??)... and I love it.  It's very accrate for the money, and the easiest to shoot...  I have shot 150 rounds in an afternoon, with NO discomfort... try that with any other of the 50's and your arm will be in a sling!

You will HAVE to reload (or rob banks), and will need all new reloading stuff, cuz none of your old stuff will workie.  If you get one, drop me an e-mail, and I'll save you months of reinventing the wheel again.

The big advantage of the 50 over the 338, is the availablity of cheap brass and components, and bullets that do "fun" stuff, like API, APIT, and those gorgious M48's... and for accuracy, those 750gr A-Max's ;)))

On the PDI scale of 1 to 10, it rates about a 13!

A .338 Lap will cost 3 times as much to shoot, and will be 1/10th as much fun. :))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 08:17:45 (ZULU)

I saw an AR-50 at the last gunshow, but they wouldn't let anyone handle it.  That is one sweet and BIG hunk of iron.  Very big.  Did I mention it's big?  It looked very well built.  But, it also seemed to me that size and obvious weight would not lend itself to field use.  On the other hand, an acquaintance has the Barret single shot bolt action and I have fondled oops I mean handled that one a bit.  Much smaller/lighter, etc.  I have yet to shoot it though...:-(

Personally, I sure wouldn't want to hump that AR-50 around when there is the Barret.  Then again, for bench shooting/range work, the AR-50 may be the ticket.  

The Armalite is very accurate from what I have heard, that includes comments from 'Lito among others.  He would be the one with the real skinny tho'.  'Lito????

Scraped up a little extra cash (less beef and more mac n cheese) and got started building an SPR type rifle......I ran across a good deal on a used Bushy V-Match 20" upper, free float tube, etc.  I know the V-Match has a pretty good reputation for accuracy.  What kind of accuracy can I expect for real?  I am hoping I can get inside 1 moa with my normal economy AR load, don't really want two loads, I would prefer to just have one good, economical, accurate load in each caliber to make loading simpler.  I know, quit laughing.  What's life without dreams?

Now just gotta decide which float tube/mounting rail arrangement.  Want it set up so the top rail runs from the charging handle to the front of the float tube, and don't really care if it's exactly like the mil version, just in concept.  Oly has a new extruded float tube with full length rails on all four quadrants.  Anyone have experience with it?  It will do what I need it to and costs much much less than the SIR.  Bolt, the mouseguns are getting to me. Help!  How do you untangle yourself?  Or haven't you yet?  ;-)

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USof A! - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 08:25:03 (ZULU)

Geoff...

What the hell are you doing up at this God forsaken hour??

... and... >"I would prefer to just have one good, economical, accurate load in each caliber to make loading simpler.  I know, quit laughing."<

HA!... DOUBLE HA!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Crawlin' back in my hide..., - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 08:36:10 (ZULU)

What are YOOOOUUUUU doing at this hour??

I knew someone would get a kick out of that!

I do know that if I want to get serious with the mousegun at longer range, 62-75 grain bullets are needed, and that no workee so well with my 1-12" twist 16" light.  I know what's gonna happen....it will be very accurate, and then I'll want to go farther with it, and have to go to the heavier boolets......but I am running out of space for equipment and ammo, and I have a hard time keeping track of my ammo and components as it is!!!!!  Time to build a another shed..of cinderblock.....      

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 10:05:34 (ZULU)

++++++++

I expect some of those Virgins will have to do double duty.

Charley <cmeng@yahoo.com>
KY, - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 10:45:34 (ZULU)

My buddy, Steve, has lone of the Amalite AR 30s in .338 LM on order now. They are supposed to be shipping the first mass shipment in April so when he gets it I'll let you all know what he thinks. For the price, he's getting it dealer at about $750, you can't go wrong. It's supposed to have a scaled down version of the AR 50 muzzle break so it should be a pleasure to shoot. I'm trying to talk him into going to the Carlos shoot in NJ in June with it but he's not sure f he wants to go. I'll keep trying though.

What .338 LM were you looking at?

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, March 8, 2002, at 11:39:10 (ZULU)

with API.

Great page, have been reading along for quite awhile.

Todays Briefing:

Everyone fights.

No one quits.

If you run

I'll shoot you myself.

Col. ? from Nam 101st I believe, would give him credit if I new for sure. My kinda guy.

John

jhammel <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 13:15:11 (ZULU)

 That quote is from "Starship Troopers".

 Lt. Rychech I think.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 13:44:47 (ZULU)

couple years ago. Never forgot it.

john

john <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 14:19:24 (ZULU)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-030802fight.story

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 17:03:04 (ZULU)

"We must learn from the mistakes of others because we usually don't live long enough to learn from our own!"  Rosevelt

I think that may apply to combat situations more than anywhere else.

From Oct. SC Archives.....Just to see how it applies today.

"

Afganistan Survival Rules

1. Never follow anyone anywhere. (Intercept and ambush).

2. Go high hunt back low. (Poorly armed Patrols are a fools game.)

3. Pack 80-100lbs ammo per horse. (steal horses if possible)

4. Never put Armor where it cannot be manuevered.

5. Don't go hunting without Air Support.

6. Don't overpack. (40lbs gear and ammo and gun max).

7. Use high traction boots with thick soles that accept Ice Cleats

8. If you loose contact with scouts assume defensive position.

9. Keep someone on bino's all the time. (high observers)

10.Stay off main trails.

11.You can't have enough Ammo and water (better hungry than dead).

12.There ain't no hard fast rules."

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 17:05:09 (ZULU)

"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world."

--Mary Shafer, NASA Engineer

In the following passage, substitute "country" for "lord" and you have the sprit of the American fighting man.:

Each man?s kit was kept to hand:

a towering war helmet, webbed mail-shirt

and great-shafted spear.  It was their habit

always and everywhere to be ready for action,

at home or in the camp, in whatever case

and at whatever time the need arose

to rally round their lord.  They were a right people.

--Beowulf (translation by Seamus Heaney)

Last for a little humor (and some truth):

?When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command.  Very often, that individual is crazy."

--Dave Barry

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, 35805 - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 18:20:03 (ZULU)

I know that us cops and firefighters always look at each other and think that the other is crazy for what we do for the money that we are paid. The only fact is, we (the cops) are right.

I have done some real crazy shit in my life, but I never had no hankering to run into burning buildings where you can't see a friggin thing. I would rather go to a domestic at the Clint Smith household.

Semper Fi,

Finger    

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 20:03:10 (ZULU)

just checking

avi

raviv <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel, israel - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 20:05:24 (ZULU)

A while back Finger mentioned a couple of good books that addressed the subject of combat loads etc.  They were written by S.L.A. Marshall.  "The Soldier's Load and The Mobility of a Nation" and "Men Against Fire"  I bought these two books from Amazon.com and received them yesterday.  Guys, you've got to read these things.  They're great!  The subject is covered well and thoughtfully.  These volumes will make a fine addition to any professional military library.  I can't begin to cover all the good stuff here.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 20:06:51 (ZULU)

Also tonight I will be getting my range bag organized.  Packing up my FN SPR .308, Rem 700 Police .308 and my Bushmaster Shorty .223 to take to the rifle range tomorrow morning.  Wife and sister-in-law's going shopping.

"I will become one with the universe, I will find my inner peace."

Quote: That Fung Fu guy.

My brother-in-law E-mailed me this morning and asked if I wanted to go golfing with him Saturday.  I E-mailed him back and said that he was welcome to come to the rifle range with me.  He could hit the golf balls and I could try to shoot them out of the air.  I haven't heard back from him yet.

Well I need to finish my wish list.  Let's see.... cut down my Rem 700 barrel to 20", get the HS Urban Tacitcal Stock, need some type of cheek piece for the FN, more ammo, how about a Starlight case for each of them, well maybe how about some.....................

Have a good weekend men!

Rambosky.   OVER...............

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mountain, NC, 28086 - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 20:18:44 (ZULU)

few days ago you said somnething about a book called "holding the zero",

i think i read the dutch version with some weird title like "dead in the reticle" (translated from the dutch).

It is about an english NRA target competition guy who goes to Iraq , buys an AWM .338LM and becomes a selftrained sniper with the kurdish resistance against saddam, am i wright?

If so, great book, quite realistic, only find it kinda hard to believe a civilian with no military expertise and who never went abroad other than hunting in Wales with nomore experience other than just from books, could survive that long in such harsh conditions, not just surviving the enemy bullets and shrapnell but also from the weather/ climate condtions...

To be honoust, i identified more with the Iraqi Sniper major, who had to make do with "just" a Dragunov, guy had lotsa self discipline.

Great book.

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 20:30:24 (ZULU)

I've beat the trucks to the scene more than once and run in without any rhyme or reason before.  Also jumped in the water before.  Lord knows I ain't no rescue man.  Some of those reactive things I guess.  Glad they worked out cause I ain't trained for that shit. (Kinda like Jim Mitchell and blood - yuck).  

Back here in detectives, I don't have to worry 'bout that stuff too too much anymore.  

My baby brother is on the short list at the FD here.  He doesn't have the temperment to be a cop 'cause he'd rather fight than f23ck.  The kid would fight Satan with a water pistol.  Hope he makes it.  It is truly his hearts desire.

Personally, I'm with you.

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, March 8, 2002, at 20:36:54 (ZULU)

 That's the book.

 I guess the Kurds looked after him pretty well.

 Great read!

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 20:51:43 (ZULU)

I'm glad that you got and liked those two books. They were on more than a few unit required readig lists in years past. Back when I was a young Force Run-a-muck Marine NCO, I had a boss that made us read and report back to him on all kinds of stuff like that. It always stuck and I was always thankful for his leadership. The lessons presented in the books still stand.

Larry,

I'm with you. I always thought a golf course was a hell of a waste of a good rifle range and hunting area.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifingerg <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 21:02:10 (ZULU)

True. So true.  I had to admit during pre-employment interview, "What would make you afraid?" I said, "Being in a burning building & being trapped."  THAT is friggin scarey. Like you Bri, I've run into a couple of burners before the FD arrives (volunteer area), choked on a ton of smoke, only to drag some other goofy fool out who did the same thing. Now scuba diving, thats another story..... :)

Wes: I went with the 50 from Advanced Long Range Systems, out in Central Point, OR, Darran Wardle at the Bullet Depot. http://www.50bmgar15conversion.com   Very pleased. Real nice machine work. Built to use an AR15 lower. Single shot bolt action, not one of the screw-in breech models. Heavy at about 38#, real ez recoil. Like has been said, FCSA is worthwhile to join.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 21:10:07 (ZULU)

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 21:25:53 (ZULU)

 Interestin observation I must say.

We used to have civilian guys like that over here in Merica. They called them "Mountain Men" but most couldn't read much except for trail sign!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 22:03:42 (ZULU)

Like someone else said ('lito?), look toward getting your spread down more.  I don't think you velocity is out of the park (I get similar), but your spread needs to tighten up a bit.  You might consider where your bullets are seated in regards to the lands.  If you are trying to seat real close, but sometimes are jammed in, sometimes slightly jumping, you can get this kind of spread due to greatly varying pressure curves.  I'd check that.  

Stan,

On a similar note, the main key to accuracy is consistancy.  In everything from how you hold the rifle to your rounds from shot to shot.  Everything else equal, the most consistant shot will be the most accurate.

That said, the reason some folks mess around with uniforming the primer pockets in various ways is so that they are as consistant as possible.  When they seat a primer in brass A, it is going into the same depth pocket with the same size flashole, with the same lack of brass shavings on the other side as when they seat a primer in brass B.  It's all about consistancy.

In practice, you may or may not see much difference.  It depends on how well you and your rifle shoot and the quality of your load in general.  For example, if uniforming the pocket gives you a theoretical .1 MOA gain in accuracy, then you need to shoot well enough to see that difference. (I have no idea what the real figure might be, I just made that up as an example).  If you shoot 1"-1.2" groups, you might not notice much with a .1" reduction.  But if you shoot .4" groups...

I do my pockets, as do probably most of us.  Never did a comparison.  Don't know if anyone ever has.  But I feel better about it and I know, at least, that I did my part in that area of accuracy.

On shooting golfballs:

As my witness Moe (who seems to be in the witness protection program these days) can attest: When you shoot a golfball with a .308, the round goes right through, the holes close up pretty tight again, and the ball just looks a little annoyed.  I'd like someone with a .50 or .338 to try this little test and see what happens.  I expected disintegration.  Shows what I know.

Quote:

"Dude, you're not getting a Dell!" - 'lito, et al, circa last week.

Semper fi  

Andre <andrekp@yahoo.com>
FL, USA - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 22:55:28 (ZULU)

Do not mean to start some crap thread about Civilians vs Military...

I too have met civilian guys who knew more than i will ever learn about survival, some of them are just brought up that way and some civilians just plain like to go out for weeks in fubar terrain with just a knife...(personally i got different ideas of spending my holidays) but the book was on about a western civilian guy from the city, not a mountain man, a cave man, a survival guru, or even a Louisiana Cajun Swamp lover...(Brian, ;) nothing personal)

Again, i personally find it higly unlikely that a civilian boy with no military back ground and just his info from books will last a week in any war zone...if his lack of experience won't kill him than lack of taking care of himself will do him in...

Like said in some of the previous postings by others, being a well trained, lead, equiped and experienced soldier does not always get you home safe (gotta have a little love for Lady Luck), but it sure beats the odds than when all the experience you got is from reading books.

Guy from the book was an excelent shot, but i think we all agree that being a great shot does not make you a sniper yet, nor watching Tom Berenger for the 26th time...   ;)

Having said that, i think i am gonna be prooven wrong by a young lad who i met last year, cause he is getting more and better training than your average GI Joe, fellow goes by the name of Andy...

(but he will be the exception that prooves the rule)

Just my opinion,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Friday, March 8, 2002, at 23:12:20 (ZULU)

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